Islamist terror: Is this the beginning of its end?



Al-Qaeda’s number two Ayman Al-Zawahiri had been violently plotting to overthrow Egypt’s regime for three decades but peaceful young men and women managed to pull it off in just 18 days in the end.

A political tsunami sweeping Arab lands appears to be gradually turning Islam on its head, mutating some dominant strands of Islamism’s DNA. Theologically, Islam remains ever so pristine; sociologically restive and churning.

This Islam is about being connected, not cut off; about Facebook, not face-off; and above all democracy, not despotism.

Toppling authoritarian regimes that aligned themselves with the West was until recently an al-Qaeda obsession. Now, it has been pushed to the sidelines in this, having ceded ground to millions of middle-class Muslims beginning to take things in their own hands.

So, what do these popular uprisings — in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bahrain and beyond – tell us where Islam is headed? I feel a substitute for violent jihad has been found; a new Islamic idiom has gained currency and a new method to confront challenges has been discovered.

The protestors in Tahrir Square could have aligned with al-Qaeda for a common cause. They didn’t.

Yet, the movements in the Middle-east aren’t completely secular. Many Islamists have pitched their tents in these civil movements. As a Nato military commander put it recently: “flickers of al-Qaeda in Libya“.

But even so, that is more good news, than bad. For one, it suggests that Islamists have been forced to hitch a ride on civilian-backed movements. Their numbers and influence appear small. Two, this could well make it apparent to the Islamists that jihadi terror isn’t the only way out.

The Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood – the most organised opposition in much of the Arab landscape — has been on a de-radicalisation spree, publicly renouncing violence, talking of installing women’s rights and not imposing blanket sharia.

Last week, Egypt’s transitional constitutional referendum went quite how the Brothers wanted.

As the Muslim Brotherhood prepares to play its political innings, it has reached out to Egypt’s minorities, particularly the Coptic Christian minority that has long suffered at the hands of Islamists. This week, its website carried pictures of Brothers visiting churches. Last month, the Brotherhood called for dialogue with Christians, who make up 10% of Egypt’s population.

But the Copts still don’t feel confident. With good reasons. Throughout 2010, they faced many attacks, including in southern Egypt, where seven people were shot after a Coptic New-Year’s-eve midnight mass on 7 January. It is believed that the attack was to avenge the rape of a Muslim girl by a Christian. In December 2010, gunmen killed 25 and injured 100 Coptic Christians in Alexandria. The Islamists in Egypt, then, must send strong reassuring signals on the ground.

Western reports suggest Turkey is fast replacing Iran as a model Muslim state. Functional Muslim democracies, such as Malaysia and Indonesia, are being eyed.

Theocracy-based regimes are becoming passé and with it, the fad for jihad could diminish. Religion will continue to play a role in Arab Muslims’ lives. Most Europeans are a devout bunch too. But the choice this time will increasingly be about being Islamic, rather being Islamist.

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  • http://thegoofysufi.blogspot.com Amit Julka

    interesting article, although i don’t agree with a couple of points
    first of all, i m not too optimistic about the brotherhood…it’s participation in democracy might deradicalize it in the same way that the BJP was forced to tone down it’s rhetoric after capturing power, but it’s still ages before the organization can even think of realigning itself with a secular polity…

    secondly, i don’t really agree with your assessment that ‘most people’ in western europe are religious…this may be true about south-central united states, but i m not sure if the christian evangelicals are as relevant to the political process…

    anyway, i m glad that i got to post something before the internet hindus take over :)

    [Reply]

    deeteeN Reply:

    BJP is more secular thanvotebank appeasingKaangress andCPI. The other parties are all family parties who appease theirrespective votebanks.
    Hindus- internetandotherwise hadenough of beingbashed around for being more criticalofthemselves thanotherreligionswho are full of themselves. this articleis another exampleof thedrumbeatingthat characterizes allevangelicalfaiths.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    BJP is secular. I must live in a different world to you.

    I guess that the Hindu Right does not constitute a vote bank and BJP does not indulge in thinly disguised vote bank consolidation activities.

    [Reply]

    moronvijay Reply:

    “anyway, i m glad that i got to post something before the internet hindus take over”…………….with their usual rants, whines, misspelled names of the entities they are against, their mockery,and all their usual vedantist p1gshit :D

    [Reply]

  • Debdeep

    I have no reason to be optimistic.
    Islamist terror will continue to exist as long as demands for separate Muslim states, carved out of of non-Muslim territories, will be entertained by the world powers.

    The basic Islamist assertion, of non-believers being an inferior species to Muslims, and therefore, can be converted/subjugated by any means necessary, along with the death penalty for apostates, are at the basis of Islamist terror. Were this not sanctioned by the Koran, the Egyptian variety of Islam – The Islam of the Nile, would have triumphed over the Wahabi version – The Islam of the desert, and India would never have been targeted as Dar-ul-Harb.

    Islamist terror is still virulent in Kashmir, Chechnya, Albania, Malaysia and the Philipines.
    This article is a classic example of Al-Taqiyah.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    hindus and christians are also carrying such struggles all over the world.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    zia , wellcome back from ? umrah or whatever.
    Well there was a talk in BBC1 about the post jasmine whatever in middle east. People are now realising
    THAT BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW. The islamicist are waiting in the wings , and the military so touted as benign is not so benign WHEN THE CAN OF WORMS have started coming out. A libyan defector in UK has been exposed as the head of a secret service who organised murder of a libyan acdemic , same with egypt the military and brotherhood are not going to be in an armlock.
    NOW SOMETHING FAR CLOSER TO HOME.
    @syed, Ashish , Rajeev , Gopi , Mohan , raju Kurien
    Guys you cannot access SUNDAY TIMES through internet without subscription.
    There was a bombshell of an article by Christina Lamb in todays sunday Times.
    The title was PAKISTAN HAS BEEN PLAYING US ALL FOR SUCKERS
    I will quote snippets , you will get the idea.
    Dana Rohrabacher who sits on the house foreign affairs committee said
    “We were snookered. for a long time we bought into this vision that pakistan’s military was a moderate force and we were supporting moderates by supporting the military. In fact the military is in alliance with radical elements.JUST BECAUSE THEY SHAVE BEARD AND LOOK WESTERN THEY FOOLED A LOT OF PEOPLE.

    pervez hoodbhoy , prof of nuclear physics sits with his head in his hands staring out at a SEA OF BURQAS. “People used to imagine there was a lunatic fringe in pakistan society of these ultra religious people” he said, “Now we’re learning that this is NOT A FRINGE BUT A MAJORITY.

    After the killing (Tasser) Hoodbhoy was asked to take part in a televised debate at the islamabad press club in front of STUDENTS.Fellow panelist were Farid Piracha of Jammat -e -islami and Maulana Sialvi of Barelvi sect(Rajeev take note)
    Both began by saying the governor brought the killing on himself , he who blasphemises his prophet shall be killed .THE STUDENTS CLAPPED
    hoodbhoy then took the microphone
    I said I am not a muslim scholar but i know there are muslim countries that dont think koran says blasphemy carries the death sentence, such as malaysia , indonesia, egypt.
    “I DIDN’T GET A SINGLE CLAP”
    When i directly addressed Sialvi and said you have salman tasser’s blood on your hands ,
    he looked at the students and exclaimed :how I wished I had done it!
    HE GOT THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE”

    Instead to her(sherbanoo, daughter of Tasser) horror BLASPHEMY CASES ARE ON THE RISE
    In the first three months of this year , seventeen cases have been registered
    The accused include a MENTALLY ILL SHOPKEEPER and a 17 yr old school boy is alleged to have scribbled something sacrilegious on his physics exam paper.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Some more from christina Lamb’s article in todays SUNDAY TIMES
    The close links between the military and the terrorists were made clear to Khalid Ahmeda leading journalist on jihadis. he was instructed by pakistan’s last chief minister to apologise to Hafeez Sayeed
    for an article he had written about the group.SAYEED IS A REGULAR GUEST AT ARMY RECEPTIONS
    and later told Ahmed ISI HAD PUT HIM UP TO COMPLAINING.
    “It’s not just a matter of creating proxies” , said Ahmed “I think we need to realise that PAKISTAN’S SECURITY AGENCIES AND AL-QAEDA SHARE THE SAME IDEOLOGY”

    [Reply]

  • ISI Agent & SHAN’s KUTTAR

    Zia

    I agree with the sentiments of your essay.

    However, I would urge caution for the following reasons.

    1. For as long as Saudi Religious establishment is promoting whabism using its vast financial resources then there would always be regimes/madrasas/religious organisation that would be prepared to dance to their tune.

    2. Pakistan Military Establishment has far too much invested in Taliban and LeT to easily give up these strategic tools for deniable interference in Afghanistan and India.

    3. Iran supporting and fomenting seatrain strife.

    4. USA’s predilection towards securing its energy needs by subverting any movement that would endanger it.

    Despite these reservations, I am optimistic as you are.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-

    I agree with you on 1,2,4.

    Iran, I think, is an innocent bystander. Of course, US haa labelled it as a terrorist state due to the Israel pressure; but no Iranian ever attacked any US inteerst (but Saudis have done multiple times; but USA has not loisted Saudi Arabia as a terorist stae).

    Obviously the turmoil in the Sunni world may catapult iran in a leadership position. I personally do not think they promote any sectarian strife or do any anti-american stuff (except the rhetoric for domestic consumption)..

    Saudi funded salafism is the bad news all over

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Binoy

    Just to elaborate on point number 3.

    In the Shia/Sunny divide Iran is on the side of Shia minorities is many countries. Hezbulla was there before Al Qaida and the so called Islamist terrorism.

    Iran will continue to support this type of activity. Lebaneese war would have been over quicker had it not been for Iran using Syria as a conduit for weapons support to its proxy.

    So in terms of Al Qaida inspired terrorism then Iran – as you say – is an innocent bystander. But the totality of Islamist violence is more than what Al Qaida and its associets do.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    agree.. however, Hezbullah is not a worldwide frsnchise, and can be justtified by some (reasonable people like me) that generally they are fighting just cause, considering plurality and share etc. The Al Queda/Sunni jehadists are tarvelling bunch – give me a cause, i will be there type. I was declaring iran is a byustander in the sense they dont self explode in Scotland, Spain, Manhattan, Paris etc..

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Agreed

    RajX Reply:

    The current strong position of Hezbollah in lebanon is impossible without Iranian financial and arms support. I have heard interviews with Hezbollah guys who talk about their training in Iran. The training is comprehensive. It includes religious, military and even academic training if we believe this guy. Hezbollah used to be weak in Beirut a few years back but not anymore. They have pushed all the Christian groups aside in many parts of the city and they virtually have veto power in the Lebanese parliament over all major decisions. The city is divided and the area under Hezbollah control is getting bigger as the other groups are getting weaker. Syrian influence is on the decrease after they pulled out and Iran is filling the vacuum through proxy.

    shan Reply:

    @binoy Hegde your understanding of saudi and iran reeks of oversimplification. HOUSE OF SAUD is america’s greatest friend in the world. That most of the guys of 9/11 came from saudi has nothing to do with the SAUDI STATE, yes wahabism is the state religion of arabs and they get a free reign , but there is absolutely no rationale for house of saud to undermine USA.Any contrarian view is just jewish lobby speaking.As for Iran it is not a bystander , here the STATE (read mullahs and the administration) is rabidly anti american , that they dont send bombers is because they are wise enough to know it will play into hands of america for regime change. In fact other than PAKISTAN, no country overtly supports Al Quada , baharain monarchy apparently models itself on the house of windsor.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    It may not be correct to brand the people threatening in Karachi hospital (sam’s link) and Hezbollah in same group. http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/236.php says 80% of Lebanese Christians support Hezbollah over US. (Hezbollah and LTTE terror have similarities. They are regional, cut across faith. Both are not backpack terrorists like Al Queda).

    Difference between Pakistan/Afghan and Middle east is that the “religious” people in the former group are the product of “intense training in camps”. Latter are not.
    Global terrorism is predominantly because of Saudi funding for Wahabism (mainly in Asia). For it to cease, either Saudi funding should cease or Asian Muslims have to realise and accept their identity as what they are and not feeling Asian version Islam (which I suppose is the majority) is anyway inferior to Arabian. Is Saudi funding related to its regime? What is the guarantee, the changed regime will stop the funding and not increase? What is the problem in stopping funding in the current regime? Many a times US oil interests overtake even the natives (in middle east) aspiration. For the same reason, there might not be enough political pressure on Saudi regarding this matter. Another way, radical Islamist group in Pak/Afghan changing themselves is not possible at the current moment. They are not in a position to make independent decision, being brainwashed from Madrassa to school text books. They might need a powerful overhaul of the system (may be by a liberal dictator) for few years, till they get back to what they used to be.

    The latter group (middle east), even if they choose religious government for the time being, people might come out of it, if their experiment do not work out. Iran after choosing Islamic revolution in 1979 tried liberal democracy in 97, electing Khatami. It is confusing, whether the support towards the current government is because of its hardcore Islam policy or hardcore anti-American policy. Ahmadinejad brings US more than Prophet in his speech. Whatever government they choose, it will not affect global interest. India-Iran relation have remained the same during liberal and Islamic government.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay- I personally do n ot think Iranians are overt “religious” people.. They are generally a fun loving people, albeit Ahmanajaj’s thump fisting. I do not even think there is afervent amnti-americanism there. However, as long as Ayatollahs are in power, they will have to project a strong anti-american posture.

    Iran will transform into a Indian style democracy soon.

    Khomini used the vaccum created by the ouster of Shah. Let us hope the same ting does not happpen in Egypt, Lybia etc

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas , you must be on a LSD trip to paint current IRAN as a benign place. Please Please read Aatish Taseer’s book Stranger to history. He has been to iran, lived there , met a lot of people. His description will surely count more than sweeping statements by you or me. According to him it is a KAFKAESQUE place , with secret police and even more secret societies that try to defy the state in their secret world. According to that book THERE IS A SECRET HARE KRISHNA SOCIETY which meets secretly and does all the HINDU RITUAL.

    tajender Reply:

    hare krishna is nothing to do with our blue god krishna.
    they are gang of druggists.krishna is their imaginary god.

    tajender Reply:

    taseer family never had any link with ground reality.nobody wept when his father was shot.gopi assesment is correct.no religion in world can change the basic characterestics of man.because of ayayollahs ,almost 90%of iranians are pro americans.
    like parivar mullahs can collect crowd.but hardly supporter.

    tajender Reply:

    yes wahabism is the state religion of arabs

    absolutely wrong.even saudi arabia is not run on religion.wahabism is religion of royality but not of state.before law everybody is equal.
    except saudi arabia no royality is wahabi.all follow alfaida not alqaida.

  • Satish Haldankar

    Zia

    Delighted to see your new blog after quite a while.

    I share your optimism to certain extent. but one would have to wait and watch as where these revolutions lead the countries in question to and what sort of new order is established – more liberal and outward looking or more orthodox and inward looking. I would bet on the former, as possibly the citizens are much more exposed to what is happening around the world thanks to communications via TV and the Internet.

    Of course, the days of mullahs (backed by funds from repressive and orthodox regimes) calling the shots will not end very soon. This is going to be one very long haul.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Satish

    Just a note for you to ponder over.

    If what is happening can be described as a revolution, then such a revolution was directed against the then existing orthodox and inward looking regimes. That should automatically mean that what should replace these orthodox regimes should be liberal and outward looking.

    What I understand from what you are saying, is if some powerful influences absorb the force of these revolutions and in time re-establish NEW but still orthodox and inward looking regimes.

    That would be a disaster, if it were to happen.

    Signs coming from Egypt suggest that evantuality as a distinct possibility. However, the public there is vigilant against such possible hijacking.

    Lets all hope that these countries become socially liberal by creating distance between religious observance and day-to-day living.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Satish/Ravi-
    Egyptian army is slowly changing its tunes. Islamic Brotherhood is becoming more involved; althoyugh the Brotehrhood today is far different from Al Sawhri days. Looks like the yoiungsters are vigilant; although two days ago therew ere shootings. The sad part is that theyd o not have a leader, a Gandhi, or a mandela. The UN guy is respected, but he does not have grass roots background, having lived abroad all his life. I hope Egypt makes it

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Islamic Brotherhood has no much support among egyptians.it is good that frauds like ghandhi and mandela are not among them.they will sell egypt.ghandhi was british agent,line taken by subhash chander bose was far honest and better for country.because of ghandhi we see so much corruption these days.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Gopi

    That is what I was suggesting.

    True, they do not have a Gandhi or a Mandela (an impossible hope, if you ask me. There cannot too many Gandhis and Mandelas around).

    Would a Hazare do instead? In his case, it seems he has started losing the plot, if today’s newspapers are anything to go by. Upping the ante, making unwarranted statements. It seems that he and his advisers have tasted blood and are attempting to go for the kill. So, IMO, Anna Hazare would not fit the bill where there is desire for a change.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    You wrote
    Lets all hope that these countries become socially liberal by creating distance between religious observance and day-to-day living.

    As I see it, in most of the Islamic world there is hardly any gap between religion and day-to-day living. To widen the distance between the two so that both can co-exist peacefully may take two or three generations or more It cannot happen overnight. You cannot change people’s thinking just like that.

    I suppose there are examples galore in history , when one despicable regime has been replace another despicable one.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Satish

    You are right that in an – as is Muslim society – the gap between religion and day to day activity is hardly perceptible.

    But what we are taking about is the – to be Muslim society. In that we hope the gap is wide enough for peace and tolerance to establish.

  • Gopi Thomas

    One thing the jasmine revolution did was to change the stereotype of Muslims seen on TV – here, for a change there were clean cut youngsters, like mine and your children, peacefully demonstrating for change. therer were no bearded people sceraming all hu akbar. I believe these demonstartions, whether it will bring them freedom or not, have presented to the world that all muslims are not blood thirty jehadists. And, in these days, image is important to change hard coded perceptions.

    The road will be long; mullahs and dictators will join togetehr to crush and grass roots movement.

    Close to home, it will be interesting what happens in pakistan – with a large young population, crushed of aspirations, with jehadis and army controlling and nipping everything, with territorial splintering, and with a busy schedule to manufacture more bombs.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Gopi

    I am sure you are aware of the adage;

    Dog bites man, it is not news.

    Man bites dog, now that is news.

    Likewise, a bearded Muslim is telegenic, in a perverse way.

    Modern clean-shaven liberal Muslim, who wants to see that.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    bearded muslim is best person.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Yep. Longer the beard, the better the person is and “Allah” loves him more..hahaha. You have been totally arabized. You remind me of the people in V.S.Naipaul’s book among the believers.

    tajender Reply:

    beard in india is sign of wisdom old age good character and honesty.all our rishi munis had beard.
    brhmn in naipaul destryed the genious in naipual.after writing so much against muslims
    he converted and married a 27yrs muslim girl from lahore.

  • shan

    @binoy and kuttar, Zia is over optimistic. Syria is still hale and hearty with oppression , baharain is still ruled by sunni minority crushing shia majority. Libya is a dangerous place. dont give that porky that UK and France a have ganged up to clean up Libya. I think , the CALCULATION is ifthey can get rid of gaddafi and a “FRIENDLY” democratic or otherwise can be put in place , OIL EXPLORATION AND OIL PUMPIMG can take place in full force thus bringing down the price. A recent news in THE TIMES of LONDON makes interesting reading. Israel has discovered huge gas within its “territorial waters” that is midway between cyprus and israel.What problem that creates will be interesting to see.
    Also I think Saudi’s role has been overemphasised , you saw their haplessness in protecting Husni Mubarek.
    I think the epicentre is PAKISTAN , which will send after shocks to rest of the world.
    As to Egypt , elections may take place , but obscurantism and perhaps more anti west anti modern stridency will find official succour. US aid may decline , economic meltdown like pakistan , BACK TO ISLAMIC THEOCRACY OR MILITARY THEOCRACY.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    baharain is still ruled by sunni minority crushing shia majority

    evrywhere in world minority rules majority.like in india where microminority has enslaved the whole nation.their entire brigade is busy in weakening and destroying their enemy(bahujan).
    delhi water supply is mixed with drug resistance chemicals.
    gurus are busy in cheating commoner by advising them not to eat onion and garlic.two very vital elements in protecting body.

    present crises in bahrain is backed by iran.now their cleric are changing side for money ,and they know bahrain is farmore better than iran.people have more opportunity any shia passport holder can get lucrative job in agcc countries.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    “Delhi water supply is mixed with drug resistance chemical”

    Hahaha.. Is that chemical chlorine? Funny man.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    yes it is true this is international report published in papers.

    tajender Reply:

    zia if we go to history,we find,The Aryan upper castes did not fight against the British rule. Rather the Aryans destroyed Muslim kingdoms, co-operating with the British East India Company and helped the British establish their empire. They supported the British whole heartedly.

    Both British and the Aryans are aliens. The British East India Company in India conspired against Muslim Nawabs in collusion with some Aryan officials of the Nawabs and caused the downfall of Muslim empire.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    what the fruck r u tsaling — r u ram avtar incarnate — ahere is aryans and where is british..what cuckoo book r u reading — r u a fllower of rupee news that says pakistan was there 5000 years ago and india was not

    get lost or do serious discussion

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    binoy- once again u fell into the trap of responding to tajinder aka ramavtar. IGNORE HIM

    tajender Reply:

    rizwan zoota polish karne se kutch nahn hooga.if he/u proves that one word is historically wrong i will stop coming to blog.
    they should know that they were traitors and collaborators.

    RajX Reply:

    Rizwan, tajender is a fun guy. Please don’t ask him to leave. That will take the smile out of many people in this forum.

    tajender Reply:

    both are 5000 yrs old.aryans are as foreigners as britishers.

    tajender Reply:

    sorry pakistanis are right.indus valley civilization is older than aryan civilization.

    RajX Reply:

    The Aryan theory is a nice excuse for the arabized like you to say that Hinduism is not native to India.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    tilak himself has written to brits,dont disturb us we are foriegners.all ur holy books are filled with cow and horses,both are not indian.u cannot hide ur identity that u dont belong to this land.
    supreme court has issued judgment that hindu is samaj not religion.word hindu is also not indian.
    pls tell me what is hinduism.

    RajX Reply:

    What!! Hahaha..you are a funny arabized guy. Does this verbal diarrhea pass for astute argument in the jihadi circles? So according to and your ilk if ,but a BIG if, cows and horses are not Indian then it logically follows that the Aryan theory is correct. Is that so? So who are the real natives of India? Does India belong to Arabs? Hahaha..you are a good stereotype for an arabized south Asian. You should be put in a history museum.

    Ashish Reply:

    @tajender
    1. How did the Muslim kingdoms come into being in India?
    2. “British and Aryans are aliens”.. but, you leave unsaid who was “native” to India in the first place. Can they be those Muslim kings you mention, by any chance?

    Go on, educate us.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    indus valley civilization destroyed by aryan invaders. indusvalley had no cow or horses.
    dravidians dalits backwards are the moolnivasis of india.plundered and destroyed by aryan invaders.first they converted to buhdhdist to fight aryans.then they converted to islam for same purpose.high caste are foriegners like british and muslims.but 90%of muslims are converts only few came from outside.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Tajender, your narrative is so compelling, I have nothing more to say.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ashish It is your fault. You asked for it. :-)

    Rizwan Reply:

    SHAN, you said above- shan Reply: April 13th, 2011 at 2:40 am
    ‘ I may have to visit Cal shortly , but incredible thing is I AM A FOREIGNER , this is a fact , my school friends and my mohalla friends avoid me , and my medical school friends try to run away.
    I dont know why ‘
    Do you think SHAN, that just like this blog, most find you MORONICALLY IMBECILIC, shrill and rude, and prefer to stay away. I am being dead serious

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Rizwan

    You are a brave man.

    shan Reply:

    You need to be only dead and seriously so.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vinay,
    long experience has taught me that that if I ask sincere questions with a view to learning, it is often very productive; many times even unexpectedly :-P

    shan Reply:

    The natives in india are the kol , bhil ahir and all the tribals , the ADIVASI , roughly translated means original inhabitants. The rest all have come from outside , in fact to throw you in despair work done in your native delhi at institute of molecular genetics have shown caste has no genetic basis . In fact (This will bring back your insomnia) apparently Bramhins in North have more common with Muslims than bramhins from other part of the country. Mitochondrial DNA analysis has shown women folks moved around freely and had produced all sorts of mixing. Endogamy within caste is a pretty recent thing.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shan

    What you say about Syria, Bahrain and also true for Yemen and other places, is true, but you are overlooking one little detail. Revolutions do not happen overnight (they are not one-night-stands – pardon my expression), as the existing stakeholders are just not going to say the next morning – OK., we agree and we are going away for good. These are early days still India did not its independence in a jiffy. The other point to consider is – the percentage of the population is demanding a change The change of regime/system to take place, critical mass has to be reached. In many cases, it seems it has not reached that level. People generally wait and watch before they decide to take the plunge one way or the other. As I said, these are early days.

    What replaces the existing regime only time will tell in each individual case.

    Perhaps to the Saudis, Hosni Mubarak was not the right man to help them in spreading their idea of Islam. In fact, they must be eagerly hoping that some fundamentalist force more in tune with them occupies the throne once the monopoly of the Mubaraks.

    I do not agree that the epicentre would be Pakistan, as you suggest, because they do not have the money power and/or religious influence and/or political authority. At best, they may try to be a nuisance value, which people will see through quickly. Take the case of India, a neighobour. They have been only able to make some dents here and there, but the idea of India is strong as ever. To suggest that they will play a very big hand in distant lands, which other than religion have nothing in common, is unrealistic.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @satish, pakistan is a good case to study. WHY PAKISTAN COULDN’T BECOME A SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC. The same fate MAY await these so called jasmine revolutionaries.
    Unless the VICE LIKE GRIP OF ISLAM is loosened in these countries , not a great dealwill happen.
    A country to be at ease with itself needs to be CONFIDENT, that comes with FREEDOM , to read anything , wear anything say anything . This is also required to CREATE WEALTH through knowledge , through trade , none of these exists in of these countries, they are closed mind with one window through which only one thing is allowed that is religion and only subservience and no FREEDOM to live life according to your will. All these parameters are hallmark of successful Liberal democratic societies.
    Unless they can consign religion or CLERGY from public discourse , these country can at best aim to be a malaysia or bangladesh

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shan

    Why Pakistan couldn’t become a secular democratic republic (in spite of Jinnah’s express desire)? Good question.

    Now let me do some loud thinking. Jinnah described the Pakistan he got a moth eaten one. The road to secular democracy had many hurdles.1) Jinnah did not live long enough to see through it 2) I suspect not enough liberal democrats went with Jinnah or were available locally charged with the task of setting up a secular democracy, unlike India, which was fortunate enough to have Nehru, Patel, Ambedkar, Azad, Malvankar … (the list is too long to write here). 3) How much religion played a part in denying Pakistanis a secular democracy? I do nor know enough to do any loud thinking on that.

    I believe they tried until 1957 or so, then the leaders themselves just threw their hands up and invited the army. I think that was the end of the process, in spite of intermittent attempts to have civilian governments.

    I agree that the clergy has to be be kept away from public discourse. In a democracy, there cannot be multiple powers of centre. At most, they can play a purely non-binding advisory role (no fatwas or anything remotely similar) to the elected governments.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    oops!.Correction.

    In a democracy, there cannot be multiple centres of power.

    shan Reply:

    @satish , Post script, the dismantling of communist block tells a different story . revolutions can be peaceful , the unification of germany , the separation of czeck republic and slovakia , the hungary ,bulgaria , romania ,poland all made transition to democracy pretty swifty and looks pretty solid so far liberal democratic foundation is concerned.All this has happened because these countries look up to the WEST , where as the jasmine revolutionaries cannot do without the byproduct of the civilization (all that science offers) but at perpetual war with western civilization.The hizab controversy in west is a case in point.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    I am not so sure about whether looking up to the west was the reason, as most of them are in a sense westerners themselves.

    Perhaps the jasmine revolutions would also end in the establishment of liberal democratic societies, for the resons I have mentioned in another post above. The people at large having independent access to the information about other societies and not what the despot or the mullah ordered Hopefully, they also have realised that the bogey of conflict with western culture and ways has been all hogwash, partly for the simple reasons that the most of goods and services that they take it for granted and use it in their daily lives come from the west and other liberal societies around the globe. The irony that the mullahs who denounce western and other alien cultures, themselves go around in Mercedes cars and use the same western goods and services, is not lost on them

  • shan

    @Gopi ,just to remind you the killers of 26/11 were all clean shaven , wearing baggies and jeans.
    Also I refer you to my posting earlier where the US senator said In fact the military is in alliance with radical elements.JUST BECAUSE THEY SHAVE BEARD AND LOOK WESTERN THEY FOOLED A LOT OF PEOPLE.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan-

    New York Times had a report few days ago on the Pakistani army… essentially reflecting what you said and what this Lamb lady has written.

    US at the appropriate momentw ill drop them. However, now they are in a fix. theya re reluctantly pumping in money knowing that they do double dealing. Pakistanis know how to exhort!

    Th explosiuon of Pakistan is abd fro all..They know that and that is why they are gleefully going on with their double dealings!

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan maulanas are stupids.zoinists all over the world is the only evil force.out to hurt this universe.wahabis are muslim zoinists like brhmnst.till these forces are not defeated,eliminated
    extincted ,we should not expect peace.
    people of pakistan and afghanistan are fighting the war of liberation against occupation.600 communal riots in india were not orchestrated by religious people.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    tajinder — u r full of s—– equating pakistani suicide attacks on ahmdiya, shia, barelvi, sufi, christian etc etc to communal riots in india is despicable…

    muslims will get out of their rut once they stop comparing all the evil things happening in thir community to other things that may or may not be happening elsewhere, and focus on eradicating that from within… let others solve their problems

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    tajinder — u r full of s—– equating pakistani suicide attacks on ahmdiya, shia, barelvi, sufi, christian etc etc to communal riots in india is despicable

    riots continued for 65 years.intercommunity war wasplanned by occupiers.will continue till
    occupiers are not forced to leave.
    they were doinig same in india.why there is nothing like this happens in turkey malaysia ,dubai or indonesia.

  • Rizwan

    why r the following moderate-

    Indian muslims
    Turkey
    Egypt
    American muslims ?
    Indonesia
    ? Malaysia
    Dubai
    Maldives

    Does anyone know about Russian or Chinese muslims ?
    Sensible answers wanted, excitable shallow trolls, keep out.
    The answers to the above shud surely be the key to world peace. rite ?

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    china has 57 nationalities 17 of them are muslims.russia was muslim majority before split.now also there is very sizable no.of muslims in russia.chechenya and dagestan were occupied by czar.they are fighting their war of liberation.most of the russian muslims are practicing muslim

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Rizwan

    Not sure, what your question is, but I will make two assumptions.

    1. I can guess what your question means.
    2. As “too anti Hindu” (according to you), I am a Troll, so this answer surely will be un-welcome by you. But then this blog is not your personal property.

    The answer lies in the fact that each of these countries follows – in the main – one or another school of Islamic jurisprudence.

    Wahabism, as a part of the Salafi School, has a very fundamentalist approach to interpretation of Islam. So countries such as Saudi are labelled as fundamentalist. Harking back to the middle ages.

    In India the Deobandi’s are closely associated to Whabiism and therefore are more hard line where as the Barelvi’s and Sufis are considered moderate.

    In Pakistan which used to be mainly Barelvi, the scene is changing violently. The shift is away from Barelvi/Sufi, towards Wahabi. Some of the violence in Pakistan is merely a manifestation of this change, “the center can not hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, and blood timed tide is ever where”. Saudi funds are encouraging this change.

    I am not knowledgeable enough about other countries in your list, but it would be my guess that they follow moderate schools of thought, but are under Saudi influence to change.

    As far as Russian and Chineese muslims are concerned, similar factors apply with the addition of the fact that demise of totalitarian communism has given them greater appetite towards religion.

    A Troll

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    islam is moderate religion.pakistan and afghanistan are victim of zoinism.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Islamist nutter for whom extremes look moderate and truely moderate is invisible.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rizwan-

    Many reasons, i think
    One, most of these countries do not haave a state religion (may be Dubai is).

    The second thing, if you again keep Dubai out, is that most of these are not Arabic countries. Indonesia and Malaysia, although mainly Islamic populations, have lived with others, and areas like Bali are still Hindu. They take multiculturalism as strength rather than one that should be eliminated. Egypt, though Arabic, has a great history and civilization behind. I believe Iranian resilience partly is from their Persian civilization; religious centers like Qom can eb compatre dto Budhist monasteries .

    Chinese Muslims are concentarted inUuruguyr (?) I believe they are pacifists, not firebrands; plus you know China… Russia, after the collapse of Soviet Union is facing the Chechenyan jehadis. As you know they ahve been cerating major problems. But the money for Chechnya comes from Saudi Arabia.

    Indian Muslims are generally pacifists, while Pakistanis are not (it may be too broad a statement; ia m basing this based on the daily killings there and teir general attitude as documented by respected observers and journalists) – We can attributte many reasons for this- While the indian Deobandi school stayed non-political and non-interventional, the offshoots of Deobandi School in Pakistan took a decisive role in teh country’s politics, direction setting. Pakistan declared itself as a Islamic country. As teh country’s problems got deeper and deeper due to the militarya nd civilian mismanagement, an aura was set that only strict interpretation and folowing of “one” version of Islam could take them out of their rut. Saudi Arabia built madrasas to train jehadis, not IITs or IIMs. The country started embracing “:arabic Salafist version of Islam”, and started getting away from its 5000 years of civilization and history. Text books were altered. Zia Al haq even mentioned that the Bengla Desh defeat was due to Pakistan not being pure enough. He started a complete overhaul, including indoctrinating army with religion.

    Let us all hope taht the uprisings in middle east eventually will establish thriving governments selected by its people reflecvting their aspirations and dreams. They should view India and Pakistan as two platform choices. What if Pakistan had followed a democratic system, focused on its peoples welfare than army’s welfare?

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Moderate Islam , a bit OXYMORON in current enviornment. The problem with Islam is as Syed pointed out at its inception there was no conception of clergy. Whenever clergy has hold on society , that society is in deep deep trouble. Germany became germany that we know because of martin Luther , who said you do not have to show servitude and fill the coffers of Rome. God and you there is a covenant, Can a similar thing be said , THAT YOU NEED NOT GO MECCA you can pray to allah at home and the covenant between you and allah is sacrosanct and beyond any ecumenical strings. As for the country I am currently resident , first did away with LATIN bible with English Bible.Can anybody challenge a quoranic prayers and incantations in URDU or Tamil or Bengali. As for England FREE WILL AND SPEECH was paramount even circa 1500, i have given few examples previously, in zia’s blog. There was a gentleman in Privy council in elizabeth’s court who said reciting ABCD is as good as prayers. Newton and modern science didn’t just drop from the sky , the ground was being prepared for a long time.
    Also malaysia , turkey none of them are moderate CERTAINLY THE MASSES ARE PRIMITIVE IN WORLD VIEW , THE ELITE IS CERTAINLY NOT IN TURKEY but the state may be less rigid than saudi WHERE THERE ARE RELIGIOUS POLICE to nab people found contravening medieval laws.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    why u people are so worried about islam.changes will come when we feel it is neccassary.communist russia forced modernity on muslim states.after liberation first thing their women took was scarf and veil.
    u have no knowledge of sunni muslim society.clergy has no hold on us.but every muslim is practising muslim.clergy only help.
    zoinist media call freedom fighters as jehadis.international zoinism is loosing war on islam.soon there will be no fund left to finance all this non-sense stupid talks.

    [Reply]

  • RajX

    Strange. I thought that Zia did not believe that there was such a thing called Islamic terror. How can one which doesn’t exist end when it has not started yet?

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Islamic terror: NO; Islamist terror: YES; you have to stop googling Islam and read up some Islamic history to differentiate the two. Or else, you will miss the two terms — you just did.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Zia you are being disingenious , history is replete with TERROR IN THE NAME/CAUSE OF ISLAM. Every religion has been used as a justification to cause terror EXCEPT IN CASE OF CHENGIS KHAN.
    Cortez wiped out maya civilization in the name of christianity. Prophet and his followers ERASED from history and living memory all there was in pre prophet arabia consigning it as JAHILIA. Quoran is full of verses advocating wanton violence against non beleivers . Taimur Lung in his autobiography describes with some relish how the Gazi who hasn’t touched a sparrow in his life beheaded ten IDOLATORS on his command.
    I challenge you to refute my assertion.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    taimur killed almost entire muslim population of delhi.this is true.

  • RajX

    Zia says
    “The Islamists in Egypt, then, must send strong reassuring signals on the ground.”

    It’s sounds like he is actually providing a winning strategy to the islamists.

    Another gem
    “It is believed that the attack was to avenge the rape of a Muslim girl by a Christian”
    Zia is providing an excuse for the killing of Copts by islamists.

    To put it in another context will Zia say something like this about the gujrat anti Muslim riots

    “it is believed that the killing of Muslims in gujrat was to avenge the burning of Hindu pilgrims in godhra by Muslims”

    Probably not.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    it is believed that the killing of Muslims in gujrat was to avenge the burning of Hindu pilgrims in godhra by Muslims

    riot was pre planned.godhra was accident.it was reserved bogey all of them are alive.who were these people commission and court will decide.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Dude! You rock. You provide entertainment for people like me who are generally bored out of our minds most of the time. Keep it up. You are providing a valuable service.I want you to post more. By the way while we are at it, what’s your esteemed opinion about the creation of Pakistan and it’s founder Jinnah ? You can also talk about the reasons for the creation of Bangladesh if you are so inclined. :-)

    [Reply]

  • Sid

    Judging by the unstable regimes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and of course the crown Jewel of instability – Somalia, it is too early to write off Islamic terror and its willingness to bring about regime change or use strong arm tactics to win large concessions from ruling government e.g Pakistan’s experience with changing some aspects of Sharia laws. Even Egypt & Tunisia have NOT become full fledged Democracies.

    [Reply]

  • http://hilarypais.org Hilary Pais

    I find the article extremely shallow and has got its basic facts wrong. The young movement that did a tremendous job at the Tahrir square has been effectively left out from the decision-making apparatus that has decided the process for election to the proposed Egyptian parliament. There was no representation for the young men and women on the decision-making body. The net result of the election under the interim regime will be a victory for the Muslim brotherhood of which Zawahiri is founder member and for the well entrenched political party that was ruling under the dictator regime.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Hilary , the enthusiasm for the rebel fighters in Libya has been tempered with the find that THERE ARE MANY AL-QUAIDA in its ranks and they see this as a oppertuinity to get their hands on large arms.

    [Reply]

  • kaswar

    Islamic terror is a myth created by us,Israel and India.US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan on the pretext of terror.israel gets free hand to crush Palestinians and india on the excuse of terror has killled lakhs of people in kashmir

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Benoy, thank you for yr response. I am keen to hear from others like RajX, Sid, Gopi, Balwinder, Syed, doc mishra, Raju Kurien, Vinay, Vijay, Mohan and others the answers to this-

    Why r the following moderate-

    Indian muslims
    Turkey
    Egypt
    American muslims ?
    Indonesia
    ? Malaysia
    Dubai
    Maldives

    Does anyone know about Russian or Chinese muslims ?
    The answers to the above shud SURELY BE THE KEY THAT UNLOCKS WORLD PEACE, no?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    I am substantially in agreement with the apprehensions and caveats voiced in the exchanges above:
    - one among Gopi, Satish and iASK
    - the other between Binoy and iASK

    As with Anna Hazare’s 4 days fast in India, I fear we are being overly optimistic and certainly expecting too much too soon. A few regime changes might be delivered but, it might just be one form of autocracy with another.
    I see Zia cheering on the moderates but, the situation is different in different countries and might even lead to different outcomes.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    I am sure that the outcome of revolution will be different in different countries and some Muslim countries may not even need a revolution.

    However, for anything to be substantially change sure the change has to take place in Saudi and Iran and to a certain extent in Pakistan.

    Only after these countries and their Religious Establishments have moderated their religious perspectives that we will see a new Dawn.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    zxsdr

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    In 1979, Shah of Iran, a pro-US dictator was ousted by popular movement. That dictators govt. was replaced by govt. of radicals. Same thing will happen again all over middle-east.
    Mid-east is not cut out for democracy. If we want stability in mid-east, we need pro-west dictators to rule there. They are necessary evils for world peace.

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    Oh…I was praying to the god and the creator of the god this pest will stick to vinod sharmas blog.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Your god failed you…You should know that I have been on this blog long before you…now buzz off..

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    jat mara janeye
    jab chaaliswan ho jaye.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    I was hoping the same.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Your god also failed you..now both of you can give each other company.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    What if they are dictators like in China?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    They don’t have spine or technical prowess to match china so will never be a threat to west.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Rizwan,
    [Why r the following moderate-]
    What is the definition of MODERATE muslim? Does your definition of moderate includer tolerance for non-muslims?

    Indian muslims – Only a small fraction of muslims are tolerant of non-muslims. Kashmir, Kerala, UP, Bihar, Bengal, Assam, Hyderabad muslims are far from moderate.

    Turkey – Forced to be secular but under Islamist govt., fundamentalism is back.

    Egypt – Attacks on copts post-hosni era doesn’t invoke much hope,

    American muslims – These muslims for now have no choice but to act moderate. FBI has busted many sleeper cells in past few years.

    Indonesia – Tolerant of minorities because of indic culture influence which they have retained post conversion to Islam.

    Malaysia – demolition of temples and denial of equal rights to non-muslims are serious here. 60% of muslims have laws favoring them…

    Dubai – Immigrants in majority???? May be.

    Maldives – Non-muslims can not be citizen of maldives so can it be called moderate.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    after killing 250000 on 7th nov.1947.orchestrating 600 plus communal riots killing thousands of innocents and pludering their wealth as per manu law..planting bombs in every city of india stealing national wealth and stacking it in swiss banks and ashrams thus converting indians into walking skeletons.dude is talking big.

    hinduism in practice is nothing but worst type of aparteism.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Is Mohan Gurkha for this blog? How much do you tip this guy?

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    RIZWAN, to answer your question in one word- RENAISSANCE. Any culture, nation or religion needs a constant manthan (churning from within) and an interaction with other cultures to weed out impurities. A bit like gardening- a bit of plant food and manual weeding needed periodically.
    In the countries you mention, there is substantial dilution of Islam-

    Why r the following moderate-

    Indian muslims- 87% hindu sikh influence

    Turkey- European culture underpinned with a very silent but strong army. I dived earlier this year off Antalya, and there were burkas and bikinis on the same beach. Tolerance to both

    Egypt- 10% Coptic Christian influence, but also a deep sense of civilisation. Underpinned by strongmen like Nasser, Sadat and Hosni ( I know I got some stick last month for praising the stability Hosni provided !!)

    American muslims ?- muslim immigrants are affluent and well educated. Strong Christian and western influence
    Indonesia- hindu roots. They stage Ramlila and Mahabharat, not just in hindu Bali
    ? Malaysia- just about. 40% Chinese population which coontrols the economy. 10 hindu influence
    Dubai- the real allah is $ and £
    Maldives- fundamentalism kept at bay as the real allah is tourism

    Christian, hindu, Japanese and Chinese societies have had / are undergoing their renaissance. The Islamic societies despeartely need other influences as stated above (Christian, western, Hindu, Chinese) to keep the 100 ton gorilla under control.
    Lovely deabte Rizwan
    Dr Mishra, Yorkshire

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Kudos. Very well summarised.

    Just one point, the mullahs and other vested interests in many societies/mohallas in their quest for power have attempted and succeeded to large extent to take the flock several centuries back… No manthan, no reinterpretation, Just stuck in some ancient time wrap. A tragedy if one may say so.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    Satish, thank you and welcome to this blog. Nice to see fresh faces here for otherwise we reheat old soup all the time.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    benoy,islamic civilization is base of christian civilization.what u have written is not right.
    west is still uncivilized.u have seen their civilization in bosnia iraq afghanistan latin america philipines in 400 years of slave trade and now in libya.they are simply robbers.robbers donot have civilization.they built institutions from loot of indian wealth.

    hinduism is aparteism.all ur bhagwans came for ethenic cleansing.hindu is samaj ,which was created by force where people at top are busy sucking the blood of remaining.they make money through gods in which they themselve dont believe.

    fraud is other name of hindu culture and tradition.

    shan Reply:

    @satish,so far i am aware Japanese and chinese civilization other than embracing Buddhism NEVER CAME IN CONTACT with any culture endogenously
    , but was intelligent enough to appreciate that to catch up with the west , they need to radically overhaul their system.
    As for why pakistan could not become liberal and secular , hear it from the horses mouth
    Ignorant man called haider. Empty vessels sounds much how many times he abruptly intervines .

    A muslim’s whole life is in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. He lives the life in the name of Allah and should die in faith. Since politics is also part of life and govt, a muslim is to practice Islam’s teaching here also. Politics and religion has been separated by Europeans and Americans, Islam don’t allow it.
    The above was a response to a TV debate in Pakistani channel ,the link provided by Rajiv.
    Also people do not realise how much the arabs and the iranians have been kicked around by western powers , a bit like current Libya. There is a detailed narrative by Eugene Rogan in his outstanding book THE ARABS.
    Next is this DENIAL.Zia did not dare to refute my assretion that islamist terror or Islamic terror is two sides of the same coin. Panditji been to Anatalya , hope he visited Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. The previously church is defaced with scrolls from Quoranic verses , but the christian mural juts out here and there. Or take the case of SOMNATH TEMPLE The point is EVERY religion is full of bigotry and violence , but with every other religion it has been possible to challenge OTHERWISE WE WOULD STILL HAVE TO BELEIVE SUN ROTATES AROUND EARTH. just imagine the consequences. In fact I am begining to concede that Buddhism suffered terribly at the hands of Hindu priest class and probably was the reason for its demise in India rather than any special attraction to Hinduism. Ambedkar and vivekananda both alludes to this fact.
    But with Islam any contrarian argument is met with violence.
    Also I am privy to the minds of many muslims from all over middle east.
    Barring JUST ONE IRANIAN, not a single person I have met who is happy to look at things objectively. The brain washing is complete. And also this tendency to live in the past , for the present is too painful. And not a single one neither knows a great deal about western civilization nor has any interest in knowing(and we are talking about all doctors, this is the culture of respective countries).
    Yet to determine the age of the oldest complete quoran you need western science , radio carbon dating.ALSO CONGREGATIONAL RELIGION WILL BE DIFFICULT TO CHANGE , sikh militancy is a case in point.for the mullahs have the eyes and ears of the congregation and mullahs have free rein.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    For a society to be liberal and democratic, all its sub components have to acknowledge and put in practice the necessary elements – diversity (all five fingers are not the same or variety is the spice of life) ), tolerance and adaptation to new ideas.

    For the last couple of decades, there have been attempts (by vested interests, who else) to take the Hindu samaj along the same lines followed by the mullahs. They thought that they were winning for sometime. The ground reality is that people are very diverse (down the centuries we have welcomed invaders, merchants and anyone else for that matter ), tolerant and ready to adapt. A continuous manthan has been in the works in this part of the world for 1000s of years.

    tajender Reply:

    shan in 20th century u worship lnd and teaching us.everyday u people are caught in fraud and rape.while lecturing us.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    As far as Indian Muslims are concerned, the Mullahs did injustice to protect their power base –just look at the recent mobilization agaist Vaistavi.. Congress parrty did bad by cocooning them in permanent “backward” pool so there is a built in voting block. And the Muslim eladers themselves did injustice by corraling them in backwardness so they have a cause” . Ditto secularists.

    Leaders like Nitin kumar and Narender Modi will be the real lights of Muslims at the end of the tunnel. Many may try to put Modi under permanent blackmark. It is true that 1500 Muslims were killed in Gujrat, with or without his knwledge. Let us grade the man based on how many Muslims he helps to get into middle class, upper class, and out of poverty. I bet his record will be significantly superior to any record any other congress or non-congress “muslim supporters” can show.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    For a starter he has declared monetary plus ekalbya prize for yusuf pathan and munaf patel. wonder what his detractors will say

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    As this blog is not about Modi, I would not go down that path (in spite of the fact I have strong views about him ), so that we do not get distracted from the subject matter.

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Dr. Mishra,

    You have summarized it perfectly. I love reading the comments of most of the people
    on this blog. Very interesting and with lot of knowlege. Tks.

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Dr. Mishra,

    My above reply was to your answer to Rizwan.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Pakistani journalist Najam Sethi on why pakistan is not secular and truth behind creation of pakistan.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH6cgHX1V8o&feature=related

    [Reply]

  • sam
  • Rizwan

    doc Mishra and Hegde, brilliant replies to my questions- why are some muslim groups around the world moderate.
    Rajeev- I liked your answers as well- esp the note of caution about Malaysia.
    Mishraji, loved the word you chose- manthan- and I can see that Satish also likes it. That is what my muslim community needs- manthan- to a man we were thrilled by Anna Hazare’s crusade. For too long has the conversation been about Babri, it was nice to see Aamir Khan taking a lead in this- my man actually wrote to Manmohan Singh.
    I had said- TO UNDERSTAND WHY THESE GROUPS WERE MODERATE IS TO UNLOCK WORLD PEACE- it is clear that where muslims interact with other communities, they change. That is what is needed- where muslims are landlocked- intellectally- we need to reach out to their minds.
    They say that Pakistan is the getting isolated big time and that is what must be prevented

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Rizwan

    Kerala Muslims, on every social, educational, and economic metrics, are significantly better than their counterparts in otehr parts of India, especially North.

    The main reason for this has been their interacting with others, their living in an integrated community , and their acceptance of local customs , attire etc. Their names used to adapt to common Kerala names like Kutty, Kunhi tagged – Kunji Ali Kutty, Haider Kunhi, Kunjahamed, Abdullah Kutty etc for men – Kutty and Kunji etc are common add-ons to Hindu and Christian names – Krishnan Kutty, Thomas Kutty etc.. and women will have Umma attached – Khadeeja Umma, Zainaba Umma sort like Christian and Hindu names such as Bhargavi Amma, Mariyamma, etc.

    However, there are winds of change, for violence and separation, in the air. There is an identified extremist group of Muslims who are preaching nonsense and getting following.

    So, interaction and integration are erquirements for growth at all levels; but sustaining that is difficult when crazies funded by Saudis are running around.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @gopi Thomas , having a hindu surname is no big deal. The epicentre of terrorism is manned by people with hindu surname , kayani, gilani, sayani, zardari , bhutto , juneja or more explicit like bhatti, or in case of bengalis like mondal.,sircar, bhuiyan , but that didn’t make bengali muslims become at par with hindus. Bengali muslims had enough contact with hindus , didn’t improve their economic status.
    The reason for kerala muslims doing well may well lie in the fact they 40% of them are GULF EXPATRIATES , repatriating money back home. Why only from Kerala such a mad rush to Gulf, ?cultural factors, ? geographical proximity.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    No, The Muslims doing well were long before the gulf boom. And Gulf boom is not limited to Muslims..All- Christians,, Muslims, Hindus are there; with may be christians the largest.

    Part of it may be due to the fact they came here as traders from time immemorial, intermarried.

    But a significant part I think is diue to comingling, living together etc.. It is quite common to have a muslim neighbour, a Christian neighbour, a Hindu neighbour etc.. partly because the whole state is a continuous city.. no pockets

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shan

    These are not or Hindu or Muslim or Sikh surnames. These are family names based on the tribe/community/area to which they belong to . So one will have a Sethi or a Bhatti or a Cheema surname among Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims.

    shan Reply:

    @satish, but nazir hussain , there is no hindu element in the name , and surnames , always represent caste /tribe , like MISHRA raw sewage of hell caste , mandal always so called lower caste so surnames do denote where you stand or what eligion you originally came from.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    At the time of conversion, some people/families may have decided to continue to use their family name and others may have decided otherwise – perhaps for complete break with their past. Hence, there can be a person with Nazir Hussain as his name and another person with Nazir Hussain Saigol (Saigal). Among Gujaratis, Patel and Parmar are some of the common surnames across religions.

  • shan

    @Sam ,well done outstanding posting, zia and other people would do wellto follow the link you provided. I have always maintained for islamic countries to change ISLAM FIRST NEEDS TO CHANGE.

    [Reply]

    sam Reply:

    the so called secularists have blind eyes..
    they cannot see the havoc islam has caused and is causing today in the world.

    they only can criticize peaceful hindus.

    I challenge them to go and live in islamic countries and fight for secularism..

    [Reply]

  • Mohan Ramchandani

    I read this article today. Is this true ? I Maybe Shan would know about this
    I think British government has got it wrong.

    http://gulfnews.com/opinions/editorials/move-exposes-british-paranoia-1.790623

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @mohan Ramchandani, the news is quite true,and there are good reasons for it. I was fully aware of professors at “Certain” universities are told to spy on students , particularly looking for a sleeper cell.
    recently one islamic students organisation had its office in a portacabin(a ready made house) where HUGE padlocks were hanging. the authorities called police , IT WAS A JEHAD INCUBATOR.
    Recently MI5 have recruited thousands of people as WATCHERS , just to report any thing suspicious , i think most if not all of them are volunteers. Regarding children I had come across news that kids exchange message on mobile phone , how to gang up against non muslim kids at school. This was probably intercepted by GCHQ. Also a lot is done as per advise of behavioural psychlogist, as you know young age is the most impressionable , AND THE THREAT IS REALNOT IMAGINED.

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Tks Shan. I wish childeren are not forced in such activiities .

    [Reply]

  • ISI Agent & SHAN’s KUTTAR

    As far as I understand, Islam is perpetually discussing and evolving. The principle engines of this discussion and change are the Islamic schools of jurisprudence such as Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Shafi’l.

    So the assertion that Islam has not changed or needs further changing is simply wrong.

    What we are all hoping is universal establishment of western style democratic society everywhere. Let’s put aside for a moment the morality and desirability of this objective, but for this to happen what is need is a divorce between Religion and practical life. This is likely to come from people themselves, hoping the religious schools or clergy will deliver this is wish full thinking.

    Any group of people who decide to live their life in accordance with some scripture or another will cease to evolve and appear regressive to the rest of us.

    Just witness the life style of Amish of Pennsylvania.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear iASK,
    unexceptionable.
    May I though, quote from the last paragraph in Zia’s blog:
    Theocracy-based regimes are becoming passé and with it, the fad for jihad could diminish. Religion will continue to play a role in Arab Muslims’ lives. Most Europeans are a devout bunch too. But the choice this time will increasingly be about being Islamic, rather being Islamist.
    He is plain wrong; and worse, he is articulating a position that being steeped in religion is somehow co-terminous with social and economic progress.
    Let us take the first one; “most Europeans are a devout bunch”.
    Hmm, really? That is why, catholic Italy has the lowest birth rate in Europe- far below replacement level? Ditto with France and Germany.How does being a devout catholic square with birth control?
    If he has said “most Americans are devout”, I would not have taken exception to this.
    What do you all resident Brits say? Is religion central to people’s lives or do they invoke it only in milestone occasions like baptism, marriage and death?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, For once you just need to take my words like my advice on matters surgical.
    15% of brits are atheist , 10% did not take any stand, 70% IDENTIFIED themselves as christians , BUT ONLY 10% ATTEND CHURCH SERVICES. So they are culturally christians , name , christmas celebration (Roast turkey, and trimmings , mistltoe etc or easter egg)
    As for america it is the deep south which is christian , but lot of it is SUPREME HYPOCRICY, I recommend the film U Turn by Oliver stone,and the one starring Steve Martin called Leap of Faith.there is a line in steve’s film “When there is no where to turn turn to God”.
    I remember once some geezers from the organisation Jehovah’s Witness came to give a talk about alternatives to blood transfusion (As you know as per old testament transfusion of other people’s blood is a SIN).The white medical students TORE into these geezers. So transfusion is used in 99.999% cases in america , so they are not like islam and pork, despite whatever is written in the book.
    As for the ISI Agent swarming this blog , the amish community is a tiny probably 5000 odd people originally from germany,. holed up somewhere in midwest , they do not force their ways on others .
    Regarding Mormons they have been prosecuted for polygamy and incest and David Koresh and his bunch of oddballs in Texas were actually physically exterminated.
    SO ISI agent , simply F off , without propagating more canards.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    that is precisely the point I am making.. Europe is a post religious society.. to say “most Europeans are devout” and seem to imply that it has some causative/ correlative relationship with progress is wrong on facts and wrong on inference.
    This is a standard Zia trick – over the last many months that I have watched him- slip in the deadliest falsehood – not central to the theme of the blog- at some innocuous place in the article.
    Of course, our tendency to turn this blog into a “majlis” or a “adda” where we discuss everything but the blog itself, helps him get away with posts “sans logic, sans merit, sans pareil”.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    I have read and re-read this.

    “. Religion will continue to play a role in Arab Muslims’ lives. Most Europeans are a devout bunch too. But the choice this time will increasingly be about being Islamic, rather being Islamist.”

    I have a feeling that this suffers from imprecise drafting, but is it possible that Zia here means European Muslims, rather that merely European??.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, many thanks for coming back. This is Adda , at least i treat it as such , my intellect has not detoriated to that extent that I need to be enlightened by Zia. I have learned more from the bloggers. As it is adda .let me open my heart to you. I read something in last sunday times magazine , that simply turned my world upside down(well rhetorically). remember i once referred to a neuroscientist Prof Ramachandran of California. there was an article on him on the eve of publication of a new book by him which I intend to buy. What I learnt.Apparently the total number of connections between all nerve cells in brain more than total number of fundamental particles in this world. just close your eyes and think about it. He is famous for his work on Phantom pain. this is a condition I come across quite frequently in my practice. suppose somebody has an amputation of his leg through mid thigh. This man feels severe pain in his foot or toes though they dont exist. He has come up with explanation and with elegant simple experiments managed to cure them.It can happen with arms as well. So he gets the patient to put his good hand into a glass box, he puts a fake hand by the side of his good hand. The patients looks at the both hands , now he strokes the good hand , he feels it ,he strokes the fake hand nothing is felt , this is how the brain is tricked into accepting that the hand does not exist. There were rare bizarre cases , like acalculia.
    The patient an accountant , been crunching number all his life , has this particular variety of stroke(meaning loss of blood supply to a particular area of brain).he can do everything but cannot do simple calculation. Or another patient fully recovered , does everything speaks normally understands you perfectly , except for one little thing. If you say allegorically like “All that glitters is not gold” and then ask him what you meant , he fumbles ,and says , well there are lot of gold in this world etc.So what it shows all that we comprehend is a function of some tiny area of nerves generating electrical impulses.A bit like an isolated chip in a computer. The similarity with computers is incredible. This is where the term neural Networks has come. Same with empathy ,
    it is due to firing of nerve cells , presumably that is why some people who have a lot of these nerves are easily emotional (like me) and those who have very few have little empthy (like Kuttar and Ram autar)’
    I may have to visit cal shortly , but incredible thing is I AM A FOREIGNER , this is a fact , my school friends and my mohalla friends avoid me , and my medical school friends try to run away.
    I dont know why , I carry myself very humbly and I am very very indian/bengalee.
    Well enough for today , please fill me with your experience in delhi.

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    @ DUDE, you seem new to this blog. There are also some wonderful muslim minds in here- Syed, Shoeb K, L Mirza, Rizwan.
    Not sure your comments like – ‘ convert the lot of them I say… ‘ contibutes to debate. Are you aware that your sentiments are actually echoed across the border where they actually forcibly covert. Thae standard modus operandi is to kidnap pretty hindu or sikh girls, rape them and then force them to convert and marry their abductors. When the parents go to complain to the police, the police hand them the ‘conversion document’ as if that justifies all.
    Estimates of such abductions range from 25 a year to 1000- google it yourself.
    So, please less of this jingoistic nonsense, how different are you from these abductors? You want to discuss Islamic or Islamist terror, you are free to do so.
    Peace

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    here is the link- the sincerity and quiet dignity of the old Hindu man contrasts with the indifferent demeanour of the educated Pak crowd listening
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjqrsHRDd_M

    tajender Reply:

    what mr kohli is saying is correct.but this is problem of society.nearly 20%muslim girls of my family has married to hindu boys.but if any hindu girl elopes with muslim boy police register case of kidnapping.

    yes hindus are scared in pakistan.but main reason for this is continous communal riots in india and demolition of babri mosque.3yrs back i was in karachi one hindu boy of south indian origin told me this.he has to hide in muslim house for 6 month when babri mosque was demolished by rowdy brigade of sangh parivar.

    otherwise in pakistan hindu means rich.indian media,usually based on lies gives very bad picture of hindus in muslim countries.while millions of hindus are working in muslim countries and million more are eager to go.to make their future.

    DUDE Reply:

    Yo taj………..

    go find every mosque in the indian subcontinent…….. YES THE INDIAN WORLD .WHICH INCLUDES…….bangerstan, pakistan india and afghanistan…………all of india…….. you will find that muslims bas terds of past destroyed many temples to replace them with garbage mosques!……..

    and convert back to your ancestral religion you deluded fake fool………you immigrant of fakism…..your clan and all the abrahamic religions can perish……..

    mohammed was and always will be a peado! marrying aisha the 6 year old while he was 52…..

    Vinay Reply:

    @Mishraji,
    If you are an Aryan, then DUDE belongs to Indus Valley. He is here in this blog much earlier than you. DUDE is Hindu version of Ram Autar/Tajender (But he does not copy-paste). So, just chill out.

    Rajeev Reply:

    :)

    mohan Reply:

    Dr. Mishra,
    This dude fellow is a joker..he has arisen from the grave like a zombi..you are going to feel the stink very soon..you will run away from this planet..
    So far this discussion is going well..good contributions from all of you…
    where is Balwinder.. are you ok?

    tajender Reply:

    BALWINDER JEE BADE PAAJEE MAAFEE CHAHTA HOON.WAPAS AA JAO.TUJHE TERE GEET BULATE HAIN.

    tajender Reply:

    This dude fellow is a joker..he has arisen from the grave like a zombi

    mohan bhai,he is not joker he is very serious.future belongs to them.we hit shaitan with pebbple now he will awnser with ak-47.

    ibtidaye ishq hai rota hai kiya
    age age dekhiye hota hai kya.

    tajender Reply:

    dude is not hindu.

    DUDE Reply:

    YO mishra……..

    I made a long comment months ago on the article you speak of……….I’ve seen it …….

    All brown fake muslims need to convert back to thier ancestral religions!

    end off…. otherwise you get spastics like taji boy there

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    Difficult for me to work out if you were agreeing with me or taking me to task.

    However, here is my view. Most people in the UK have divorced their dily lives from religion and in the main are not practicing.

    This is not new. The Methodist were the first denomination to stop church going, sometime during the 60s. So much so, many early Gurudwaras in the UK where housed in former Methodist chapels. The one in Wakefield Road in Bradford is just one example.

    So you are right in your assertion that for most people in the UK Religion only comes into play on milestone days, or if you wish your child to get a seat in a good Catholic School.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear iASK,
    I am not inclined to grant “imprecise drafting” – if it is, then let him come to the blog and clarify.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    Here are some statistics and links for you to make your mind up.

    6.3% of people go to church
    7.5% attended regularly in 1998
    29% of churchgoers are aged over 65
    17% are of ethnic minority background
    (8% of general UK population are ethnic minorities)
    44% of London churchgoers are black

    ….http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5349132.stm

    …. http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/11080

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @iASK,
    hey, the short answer is that I was in total agreement with you. Sincerely.
    When I am not, I shall let you know- in so many words :D

    The way I see it is; if you ask me, I shall say I am an Hindu, without any hesitation and I am as enthusiastic as any dyed in the wool Bong about pandal hopping during Durga puja. But, am I a practicing Hindu? Nope.
    Do I pray? Visit the temples? No. Do I touch the feet of my elders? Yes.
    Most Europeans I would wager, and as you confirm, are like that. I am comfortable in my skin as a Hindu (or an internet Hindu :) if you prefer. As would be most Europeans in calling themselves a Christian but without being ritualistic about it.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    Doodh ka jala, chajh bhi bhoonk bhoonk kar peeta hai

    :)

    shan Reply:

    @ashish I hope your reference to resident brits did not include me . i would be greatly offended , I can avail british passport anytime , but I have not , dont know the same can be said for panditji , as for IAsk , his country allows dual nationality

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    but amish does not go and kill anybody … they keep to themselves, in their own communities …and they give an option to its members to leave if they want at certain age

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Binoy

    My comment had absolutely nothing what so ever to do with violence.

    Amish are very peace loving people.

    However, they are people of scriptures and regressinve in their outlook.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    so brahmins created this faroque ahmed and made him plan thr subway

    brhmns create bhagwan not insaan.if americans will attack and kill thousands of innocents why they should not take revenge.

    tajender Reply:

    though i dont support his act.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    Well, if it is evolving, they will have to make the speed faster..

    It looks like none of these “evolving schools” have any influence in terrorist countries like Pakistan.. You hear only about Deobandi school there that creates jehadi leaders like the LeT and other leaders.

    also, have the spiritual leaders of these sects declared that terrorism and killing innocents is a nono and it will not get them 72 girls and a seat at allahs table.

    [Reply]

  • Mohan Ramchandani

    Rajeev’s prediction comes true.

    http://www.samachar.com/Pakistani-visitor-who-came-to-watch-Mohali-match-goes-missing-lemjRmjdjib.html

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I still fail to understand how our agencies are unable to keep track of handful pakistanis who come to watch cricket.

    These people who go missing should be getting some kind of local help in the form of shelter etc. Who are these people who host these missing pakistanis?

    Even wondered how 10 pakistanis attacked mumbai without any local help? I am not pointing towards Indian muslims but general populace. One should not forget that Dawood got RDX into India using HINDU policemen and carried out 1993 blasts.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    rajeev there is no hndu or muslim in india.everything is money.26/11 was orchestrated by brhmnst with the help of their agents in ib on the instruction of cia.reason was to pressurize pakistan to kill his own people.sacred brhmns wanted to conceal their crimes of bomb planting by killing socialist and honest brhmn karkare.

    request of kasab to recheck cctv tape through international agencies is not allowed by court.

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    MY my how times don not change.

    Zia does taslk alot of garbage. Islamic terror has been there throughout since its creation by the magician named mohammed who fooled the masses with his warlord type tactics to convert the masses!

    Just like the other rubbish abrahamic religions, Islam is and will always be a terrorist religion! Proof in the pudding is in this stupid blog that should no way be allowed to leave zia’s own mind! Just scroll up and read the garbage from stupid muslims on here…….see how their ideology stands out …..they all got terrorist tendencies!

    convert the lot of them i say………………if only god himself told these deluded fools that their religions is fake and stupid!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Dude , my mate , where is your favourite lines , all muslims convert back to your original religion.
    remember we had a matey conversation about which actresses are sh gable.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Dude , my mate , where is your favourite lines , all muslims convert back to your original religion.
    remember we had a matey conversation about which actresses are sh gable

    which religion u mean to say brhmncl slavery .as per supreme court hindu is samaj not religion.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    YO taj ali……..

    go learn history before making up garbage! fake fool!

    DUDE Reply:

    I have only just started!

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    DUDE,

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Farooque Ahmad, a 35 yr old Pakistani Muslim american, was sentenced to 27 years of prison life for planning simultaneous subway bombings in New Yorka nd DC. He was working for a Pakistani based terrorist organization.

    The sentencing happened yesterday in New York.

    The Paksitani guy who did not go back to Pakistan (Rajeev’s blog comment/video) may well be scouting the train stations in India. jehadism is in their DNA, they cannot escape it

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Did any such missing pakistanis played any part in 26/11? Did our agencies look at this and the people who gave refuge to these people?

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    thank you Mohan and Vinay for enlightening me on DUDE.

    @BENOY- sometimes I do wonder how they manage to catch ALL these to-be terrorists. Or maybe not as the Swedish Abdulla and US Faisal indicate otherwise. Just how many are out there ??

    regarding the guy who escaped from Mohali, if I remember correctly he was in his 60s, cant think he would do much harm !!

    @ mohan- yes- Balwinder paaji, where art thou? One misses your poor jokes!! Only kidding, we miss you

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    mishrajee u know zoinism has opened war on islam.these people are caught ,just to fill the media with anti-muslim news.
    indian zoinists copy the same AMARNATH YATRA SHURU ATANKI HAMLE KA KHATRA.

    CWG GAME SHURU ATANKI HAMLE KA KHATRA.

    INDO-PAK FINAL ATANKI HAMLE KA KHATRA.

    PUROHIT JEE NE BOMB RAKHA,BANGLADESHI PAKAD GAYA ATANKI HAMLE KA KHATRA.

    KALEE LADKEE DIKHAYE DEE ATANKEE HAMLE KA KHATRA.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Balwinder paaji has again for the umpteenth time fallen of his cahir due to cheap booze available in uk ,but this time he had one drink too many as so had to be taken to alcoholic anonymous.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    benoy,

    Muslims not terrorists: If “terrorism” did not exist the racist Israel could not have been created. Brahminists repeated this terrorist lie and today India is full of “terrorism”. Every day new and newer terrorism is invented. The two evil forces killing the world are playing upon “terrorism” to destroy the society’s immune system.

    Muslims are not terrorists. They are victims of the Brahminical terrorism, the twin founders of the Satanic Cult.

    Both the zionists and Brahminists do not believe in god. But they sell god to us to deceive us and make money. They threaten us and bully us in the name of god. They believe not in god — but Satan.

    A Satanic Cult governs the world. This cult will die with the World War-III. We assure you.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    shut up ram/tejinder… so brahmins created this faroque ahmed and made him plan thr subway bombings.. if so, i would say they are quite smart and we should give them the keys to governance

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    Don’t waste time on Ravi’s Guru. Both are nutcases.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    may be it was revenge attack.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Pakistani threatening India with dire consequences just like Ravi and Ram Autar do-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEiA3tqDAdc&feature=related

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    he looks ur first cousin

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    How large hearted Indians are-
    Indian Army evacuating 93000 Pakistani Prisoners of War
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDjfq-CQULk

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Pakistanis are more large hearted. They are still keep Indian POWs.
    They sheltering them, feeding them and as Pakistan is a heaven as they claim,
    they are also providing them with 72 virgins.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    we are also keeping thousands of pakistanis.they are large hearted.it is right.from 1969 to 2002 almost every year ,muslims of gujrat were mascared in a planned way by rss gundaas.

    but not a single hindu was touched in tharparkar,a hindu majority city in pakistan on border with india.what shahid was saying ,was first told to bbc by hindus of this area.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    mr benoy/rajeev

    Henry Makow, a Canadian Jew and an expert on the problem, expects the zionists to start preparing for the World War III from this year (2010) itself. By 2012 we will get clear evidence of the end to our present civilisation right before our eyes. Get ready for the civil war.

    Deadly wars on Muslims: After the so-called “Holocaust lie” which the zionists manufactured to create Israel, the second biggest lie is the 9/11/2001 — the Israeli Mossad attack on WTC twin towers to launch the worst deadly wars on Muslims. They invent dangers to dupe and deceive innocents. And provoke wars.

    Both Zionism and Brahminism thrive and survive only on wars, blood, hatred and lies. The zionists invented “terror”, meaning Muslims. And the copycat Brahminists followed it.

    The Lie is mightier and deadlier than the Hydrogen Bomb. The Bomb merely devastates. The Lie steals our souls, says Henry Makow

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    Rajeev, no point in highlighting one rabid Pakistani making a hate speech on youtube- all you have succeeded in doing is increase traffic / viewership to his video, which would make him happy. The net is full of nutters, accept that. If you have to, highlight a trend.

    @Gopi, it is rare of me to disagree with you, but on this occasion I must. Iran is a million miles from turning into a benign democracy. Yes, the individual Iranian one meets abroad is very friendly, especially towards Indians. And before Saddam’s wars, Iran was actually considered a nice place for Indian doctors to work in, in 1970s.
    The description of Iranians by some doc friends of mine was- khandaani Persian culture. This may be explained by the fact that Islamisation of Iran occured without arabisation, if that makes sense. In fact for long, the Iranians looked down on the Arabs.
    But that was then. Now with the advent of Ayotallah, a hardening of Islam has taken place, a la Pakistan. While we NRIs love going back to India 1-2 times a year, most of my Iranian friends dont like going back a lot. They say attitutes are primitive.
    There is a changing equation with India also now. Ahmedenijad and the current Ayotallah, have for the first time in decades made anti Indian statements in OIC etc. Partly it is to do with India backing out of the pipeline. Also, Ahmedenijad is an unstable nutter, virulently anti Semitic. The only good news is that Iran hates Pak to some degree, otherwise we shud be worried when the YANKS leave and the ‘ummah’ once again looks at us thru the Kashmir prism.

    Sorry long answer. But Iran is still mutating, watch this space

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    dr u are great i agree with u on all above.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    dr u are great i agree with u on all point.

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    SHAN
    I am amazed that whenever you open your mouth, you come up with AMAZING STUPIDITIES-

    ‘ Pakistanis have less hatred now towards India ‘- are you a moron, SHAN. The slide of Pakistan towards wahabism is so severe that their hatred of India is dangerously obsessional. Afetr 26/11 there was gloating, you imbecile !!!!!!!!!!

    ‘ flood the area with halothane ‘ please tell me SHAN you are not a doctor. You come up with garbage. Listen pal, you should be barred from this blog for the heinous crime of STUPIDITY

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Pakistanis have less hatred now towards India

    shan is right wahabism ha no support among general pakistanis.communal parties could never get more than 7% votes in pakistan election as compare to 32 %for hindu terrorist and communal parties in india.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan,You should have your PREPUCE(find out what that is) RESTORED. I am happy to do the operation free of charge.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ok..This is how an egalitarian France gets frightened when Muslims do not want to share, integrate….causes existential fear even amomng their communists and liberals…

    , http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/world/europe/12france.html

    [Reply]

    vinayak purohit Reply:

    they are rascist not egalitarian.why sikh remove turban or indian women wear miniskirt to integrate with them.they are robbers.see their act of killing innocen people of libya.see their behaviour with gypsies.country whose first lady is *****.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    @doc mishra, lovely post abt Iran. u forgot to mention they may turn nuclear in 5 years, adds to our headache

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    what about isreal

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan, Yes, I have read about Prof Ramachandran’s work; he is fascinating. Clearly a brilliant mind.
    As for friends from a bygone days; I have known some friendships survive but many don’t. It is most often because friendship needs shared interests, shared concerns and shared experiences to stay fresh. What is important to realise is that as you have evolved, your friends from a distant past have evolved too.
    Cherish the memories; but, neither you nor your friends are prisoners of them.
    http://eastdelhicitizen.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/beete-huey-din-wapas-nahi-aate/

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    BENOY HEGDE,The most favourite pastimes of the Jews and the “Jews of India” are sex, nudity, homosexuality, binge drinking, cricket, Bollywood pomp and boasting. Their media is nothing but shit so that our souls are fed with saw dust.

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    Be afraid DUDE is back………

    Muzzos need to convert back to their ancestral religions! become free of hate!

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    our ancestral had no religion.they were slaves of brhmns.

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    Muslims = Terrorists!

    All Brown muslims need to reconvert back to their ancestral religions!

    Wake Up! become free of 5 times a day of showing your *** to the sun god horus…….

    ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS ARE GARBAGE! CURSE THE WEAK INDIANS THAT FELL TO THEIR FEET!

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    All Brown muslims need to reconvert back to their ancestral religions

    they had no religion it was brhmncl slavery.conversion was liberation from slavery.

    [Reply]

    zee Reply:

    Dude…… before commenting about others religion first clean the shit of your own religion. Do you know why people converted to Ismal in India and what are the reason? it is because in India among the hindus we have upper cast and lower cast difference and it was always the upper cast torcher the lower cast people in India and still they are doing so that is the reason mostly people in India converted plus they read about the good things islam teach…every year we see upper cast people are killing lower cast because of their cast. there is no equality in Hinduism there was always discrimination. I want to ask you one thing can you tell me why till today we cannot allow a lower cast to be a preist in a temple? why only upper cast will only become a preist? No religion has this issues in the world except hinduism….so before you curse the muslims first clean your own mess at home. Atleast Islam dosent discriminate in the name of religion and castism. Once we had sati in hindusim now still some people try to practice it in India …may I know why? do you have any answer for these questions?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ZEE, THERE IS NO ANSWER ONLY DENIAL, but the raw sewage caste is on the backfoot. Bramhin boys were paraded before BEHANJEE and they all prostrated and TOUCHED HER FEET, so things are not the same.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    Zee boy………….

    Now now calm yousrself you live the life of denial hmmm one who has been taken by this rubbish of rubbish religions named islam………

    I don’t have time to explain to you the history of india ….why dont you scroll back on all of these dumb zias posts and read fool……….. find dude and read…….

    I know exactly how stupid weak indians were converted to islam! by force……. go read proper history not the fake made up **** that ur dumb parents tell you!

    islam discriminates against all other religions even your sister religions the other two abrahamic religions fool!

    Reconvert to your ancestral religion!

    your telling me all of the indian subcontinent brown people that have been down history converted to islam were all lower catse?????? don’t make me laugh little boy!

    wake up foool! this is exactly what dumb muslims like yourself like to believe!

    trust me you think all you are living in harmony! no real indian likes muslims! for what they have done… throughout history……….peace loving my ***! till this day all major religions and innocent people have problems with tyrant muslims like yourself!

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Thomas Fridmans column on Arab revolution/evolution/disaaster……

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/opinion/13friedman.html

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Dr.Mishra,
    You were talking about trend…Here you go.
    http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=88454

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rajeev

    It is a fact, based on various statistical surveys, that the animosity to India in Pakistan is deep rooted and widespread. Until USA became their most hated enemy (after pocketing trillions dollars!), India was their number one enemy. And that enmity is a different form – they want the destruction of India. A compatrison does not exist in India; there may be a small percentage who do not like pakistan, but an absolutely smaller (may be less than 1%) who want Pakistan to be destroyed.

    The kayanis and Pashas feed on this enmity, they devise schemes to sustain this enmity.

    The milluon dollar question is what should India do? As you know, they are going on adding nuclear stuff. which is another stupid thing –how many bombs one need. The isssue is their bombs, and what happens when LeT etc get hold of those bombs.

    The only thing I can think of is some sort of surgical removal of the bombs in cooperation with US. But it looks like US has not been able to decode or uncode after all these years. Several actions could be undertaken once the bombs are denuked

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @binoy, I think the hatred in pakistan towards india has significantly waned compared to 70’s and 80’s.
    this is a generational shift.now the anti india bias is mainly MILITARY , even the political leadership is concillatory. There is no doubt mu rough guess about 20% rabidly anti india. As you know numerically the poor are overwhelming majority in pakistan and i dont think they have a great deal of grudge.
    Regarding NUKES , I wouldn’t rely on yanks , they just talk big , we know what happened in iran , somalia. ONLY COUNTRY THAT CAN SORT THIS IS ISRAEL, perhaps a raid like entebbe , flood the area with halothane , which will kill all those guarding it and then steal or disable the nukes and then bomb AQ khan centre, so that no further manufacture is possible.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    mr shan,

    barring punjabis connected with army ,nobody hate india in pakistan.for them india is model what they want.they want their country to follow indias agriculture and educational reforms.our side of punjab has best colleges primary and higher education system.while they have nothing like on their side.
    they want to learn many things from india.
    shan benoy is brhmn ,in india only brhmns and few migrated punjabis hate pakistan and muslim.by and large their hate mongering has no taker.creator of wealth want peace to grow.
    nuclear pakistan is good.it is detterent to international zoinist and their satanic cousins in india to wage war on small issues and drain our development budget into millitary spending.for them war is divine act.their holy scripture are nothing but ar stories.all their bhagwans are loaded with deadly weapons.avtar comes for ethenic cleansing.including ramavtar.
    95%of the population of both side wants peace and development.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    The thing that disturbs me most is that this pakistani hatred in not based on partition or pre-partition events but based on some HADITHS.
    You will be surprised to know that large number of Bangladeshi share this kind of hatred with pakistanis against Indians especially hindus.
    As Indian muslims are flesh and blood of pakistani muslims, do they share the same kind of hatred for hindus? I wish not.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    u hindus are only 2%better to go america.99%of population has not read hadith.they have
    have not orchestrated riots like u people.hate is duty of u people while lie is staple food.

    Rajeev Reply:

    tajender,
    do you mean to say that all the people on pakistani forum are zionist?

    Why should 2% hindus leave pakistan? The current day pakistan has belonged to hindus for thousands of years. It is you guys, who should leave pakistan and live in arabia. You have stolen hindu land.

    Rizwan Reply:

    raj, these ‘do kaudi ke’ posts r meant to be ignored,

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    chup chootia

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    Why should 2% hindus leave pakistan

    in india there are 2%hindus only.they are brhmns.they love america.consider america as fatherland
    always praise america and neo-cons they should go there.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    In muslim world, there are 2%muslims only.they are syed.they love america.consider america as fatherland
    always praise america and neo-cons they should go there.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    i agree

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    SHAN, you post this garbage- r u really a doctor-
    ‘ shan Reply:
    April 12th, 2011 at 11:24 pm
    Dude , my mate , where is your favourite lines , all muslims convert back to your original religion.
    remember we had a matey conversation about which actresses are sh gable ‘
    THIS IS A DOCTOR CONTRIBUTING TO A DEBATE, I feel sick

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @rizwan, you dont you F off.I am not going to be told what i should do or not to do yeh tumhara baap or abba ka jamindari nahi hai. i have no interest in getting tangled in a conversation with a urchin like you .so if not F off , then p iss off.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    post script, this is my private space with my mates, rajeev,dude , ashish and the rest of them(not panditji who is more of an uncle). this is not my practice (meaning doctor’s office) so i am in a different mode. I have told you before this blog is a majlis for MEN NOT BOYS LIKE YOU , so concentrate on paanch waqt naamaz.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Rizwan,
    If you look at the debate in pakistan forum, they are talking about a Hadith that specifically mentions conquering Hind i.e. India.
    Can you confirm if such kind of Hadith actually exists or these wahabis across the border are just making this up?
    If this Hadith is there then are Indian muslims also have intention of conquering Hind? Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid thundered few months back that muslims ruled India for 800 years and godwilling they will again rule India. I have personally met muslims who believe that India can only be ruled by muslims and hindus being passive are bound to get ruled by foreigner especially muslims.
    I know most the of muslims who claim such things are living in la-la land but this is serious if percentage of such people increase.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    . I have personally met muslims who believe that India can only be ruled by muslims and hindus being passive are bound to get ruled by foreigner especially

    idiots like u can be find among muslims as well.now hindustan is being ruled by sonia and corporates.muslims are no foriegners.90%of them are local converts.foreign muslims have gone to pakistan.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev are out of your mind. Only places where muslims dominate in India is prostitution and underworld(Syed’s word).

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan,triputi is the biggest brothel of world.sona gachi is not muslim area.yes muslims are pushed into poverty hence they are in bussines.but mumbai kee koi aisee ludkee nahin hai jisne arabi l ka maza na liya ho.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @rajeev , hindu scripture is no kinder to non hindus.Some facts, Tagore’s grandmother barred her husband from having sex with her after he socialised with the English. In fact after entering through the gate , he had to change his clothes (discard them) and sprinkle ganges water. I had mentioned earlier FIRST HAND ACCOUNT from a bangaldeshi lady from Sylhet. she said her grandmother told her if a muslim entered the houseof a hindu woman while she is cooking THAT FOOD USED TO BE DISCARDED.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    shan–

    is it scripture or the way some hindus operate… i do not think ramayan or mahabharat or gita has anything to do with hindus/non-hindus

    which scroipture — and please, please, dont tell me manusmrithi– ram autar will take care of that

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    all ur acts are based on ur holy scripture that is why untouchability and casteism prevailes in ur society.ur hate for everybody is also the result of same teaching.brhmns should not call themselve as hindu ,u are not indian.

    spiritual fascism is called non-voilence,and intellectual gundaism are 2 gignatic octopuses which are eating vitals of our ociety.

    gita was written by brhmns to enslave indians after most of them converted to buhdhdism.
    as vedas cannot be kept by non brhmns arthshastra and dharamshastra also kept in secret(exposure will open the secrets)gita with blue god (white is only divine)is given to indians which orders followers to accept caste system and accept ur`inferior position in society.

    Rizwan Reply:

    rpt
    SHAN, you post this garbage- r u really a doctor-
    ‘ shan Reply:
    April 12th, 2011 at 11:24 pm
    Dude , my mate , where is your favourite lines , all muslims convert back to your original religion.
    remember we had a matey conversation about which actresses are sh gable ‘
    THIS IS A DOCTOR CONTRIBUTING TO A DEBATE, I feel sick
    —————————-
    my bad, dude
    remember no more name calling or abuse of others

    shan Reply:

    should we take that as a FATWA

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    @ Benoy, I share with you 100% the observation that Pakistan’s slide into fundamentalism is incrementally downhill over the last 60 years in general, and last 10 years in particular.

    Not many in India know that Jinnah had not been dead for even a year when Pakistan passed the infamous OBJECTIVES RESOLUTION in 1949 making mincemeat of that Jinnah’s famous last speech ( you are free to go to your temples and churches etc)- Pak became Islamic. With each decade and with each powerful personality, Bhutto to Zia, they added more layers of radical Islam.

    1970s – Ahmadiyas declared non muslims and last 5 years some even said they were Wajib ul katal- wow
    Later, Zia brings in Hudood and Zina ordinances- stoning to death etc- how bloody barbaric
    Later blasphemy law, which the cockroach Nawaz Sharif adds the death penalty to, so much that even to discuss modifying it causes murder of Tseer and Bhatti – IN 2011 !!!

    So, no point reassuring us with some poll statistics, PAK society, including young urbannites are on a headlong rush to hell, and we share a border with this unstable medieval society.
    A VERY POROUS BORDER

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Replacing Poll Statistics from a scientifically carried out POLL with deep rooted base less prejudice, not going to solve THE problem now, is it?

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    The complete study can be found on this link.

    ….http://www.boell-pakistan.org/downloads/Red_Hot_Chilli_Peppers_Islam_-_Complete_Study_Report.pdf

    It makes an interesting reading.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Just in case you are mistakenly harbouring a notion that this study could be part of a carefully crafted propoganda, then here are the objectives of the organisation that conducted the survey.

    _____________

    Our Objectives
    Supporting and strengthening participation, pluralism and the rule of law in the region.

    Our Role and Mandate
    » Working as a catalyst and enabler.
    » Providing a forum for dialogue and exchange.
    » Being a platform for Green Ideas and sustainable projects.
    » Granting intellectual and financial support for research, conflict mediation and political awareness.

    Our Partners
    Within the scope of our mandate and to attain the objectives we cooperate with social initiatives and public bodies, civil society organizations and academic institutes.

    Rizwan Reply:

    THE STUDY included mainly elite students- medical colleges and LUMS which is like IIM

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Rizwan

    So not sure I get your point.

    Because these were elite students, then does their view not count.

    Will they not be opinion formers of tomorrow.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    A Pew reserach done in July 2010 in PAkistan said 1) 80% believe in death by stoning, cutting off hand etc for the appropriate crimes 2) India is a bigger danger (54% or so) than Talibans who are creating mayhem (only 23% or so felt Taliban is a bigget threat) and a plurality said Islam should be the governing law/system…

    Rizwan Reply:

    Ravi- ? isi- to prove yr thesis that Pakistanis are NOT THAT BRAINWASHED, you get THAT ONE STUDY available on the net from elite rich medical students and MBA WHO ARE < 0.1% OF pakistani society to prove a point you have been trying to make for the last 1 year

    wow- give me a break
    was it u who advised MMS to send our cricket team to Pakistan ????/ Presumably u r going as well??????// presumably you have a nice LIC policy, dude

    balwinder sandhu Reply:

    ravi = isi, chhad yaar. okay, you are RIGHT, we are wrong. Pakistanis are the most secular, worldly wise Indian loving nation on earth. Just dont know who is exploding all the bombs in their country.
    I know I know- it is RAW
    nO, it is Mossad and CIA

    riswan, send ravi to your future in laws house in Lahore- after all someone has to take the rishta. Wonderful place, yaar Ravi, you must go to concerts there, very nice musicians called Jaish e muhd, and Lashkar e tayaba- sufi music is their speciality hehe

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Balwinder

    I have read and re-read this hog wash you call your contributuion.

    Any century now, when I have understood your point I will reply.

    Meanwhile, you keep nodding, at recognising your own deep rooted prejudice.

    I suggest that you look at the report and the organisation that is conducting it. But then that would require reading, and we all know, you dont do that. Do you now?? Puttar

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Binoy

    I have posted a link to the study I quoted.

    Please can you post the link to the study you have quoted twice here.

    Readers can make their own mind.

    tajender Reply:

    doctor saheb ,declaring qadiani as non-muslim was unislamic act.specially when they practicisn muslim.they are hatedbecause of their acts not because of their faith.they were british agent like rss,responsible for arrest of thousands of people.now they are spying for americans.

    general zia was creation of americans he was hated by pakistanis.when americans will leave area,laws made by him will automatically die.he made these laws to take support of clergy to wage war against soviet union on instruction and support of america.

    america shaitane buzurg hast.

    mass education (english)is remedy to this malady.it will cost them nothing.but if problem will finish,arms factories willl close.hence problem should remain at any cost.

  • ISI Agent & SHAN’s KUTTAR

    Pakistani Youth Identity.

    Very often people create an identity for themselves based upon how different they are from their enemy. They say to themselves, as a Muslim Pakistani I am everything that a Hindu Indian is not. This to some degree is at the root of Pakistani Youth’s attitude towards India. Its main function is to form a clear identity for themselves rather than display enimosity towards India.

    Pakistan, more than India, has relied on Military solutions to political problems, this has led the Pakistani society to be over militarised when compared to India. This general reality has also contributed towards Pakistan Youth’s creating an identity for themselves.

    Several studies conducted in this area have concluded that…..

    “….However, there is an ambivalence in their attitude towards India. For instance, 53% didn’t believe that Pakistan should adopt an aggressive stance towards India. Fifty-seven per cent were also of the view that Pakistan and India could live relatively peacefully. However, peaceful co-existence did not mean compromising on national security interests. For instance, the majority did not believe in handing over Lashkar-e-Taiba’s leader, Hafiz Saeed, to India, a long-standing demand of the Indians.

    The mistrust was further highlighted in the opinion that India wanted to ultimately eliminate Pakistan (61%). The sense of insecurity was obvious not just vis-à-vis India but also the rest of the world. When asked which countries posed a threat to the Muslim ummah, 57% of the respondents (who were allowed to choose more than one answer) picked the US – the US received more votes than any other country. Otherwise, 43% saw Israel and 28% deemed India as additional threats. These youth also viewed the Ummah quite seriously. When asked if the Muslim Ummah was an abstract idea or a concrete reality, most of the students who responded (43%) opted for the latter (29% gave no response)…..”

    This notion that THE WHOLE OF Pakistan society is fast moving towards wahabism is not borne out in any of the studies I am familiar with. Yes they are now more radical than they used to be. BUT

    …..http://www.boell-pakistan.org/web/116-625.html

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    ravi upper class pakistan society is far more tolerant and bearable than upper middleclass brhmnst /bania society.u just cannot go their houses.if i go their house i feel as i have entered in jurrasic park.elephant snake tiger etc etc is available.one pundit will be found roaming around with tray of smoking snake in his hands.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    2010 July Pew Survey on Pakistanis:

    - only 35% had a negative view of LeT; 25% had very positive view
    - When asked about what is a major threst – Taliban, Al Queda, India – 54% sai India .. only 23% felt Talibanists, related terrorists, the ones who explode in mosques etc are threat..
    - 80% want to stoine adulterers, and cutting off hands of thieves etc (they want Sharia to be the law)
    -75% said that people who leave Islam should be subject to death penalty..

    Or in their outlook, they are no different from Talibanisst…

    The issue is,a s Rajiv brought up, how does India manage this tinderbox…Sooner or later it will fall apart if 70-80% of the people have these attitudes

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    but theses people have no power in society.india is run on evil principles of manu smriti.which calls for looting and plundering the wealth of non-brhmns.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy hegde, with english education and thus access to internet will change the mindset at least with indian muslims.There will always be some nutters , like there will be amongst hindus as well. with the internet they will know that the so called “holy” prophet is not so holy afterall, because they will read the bits that are carefully excluded in mosques.Also they will be ashamed to cling on to the garbage , which they will find rest of humanity had long discarded.

    Manusmriti is hadith of hindus, but hindus would PISS on that document where as ignorant gullible misogynist inhuman muslims still VENERATE it.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    manu smiriti is based on evil intention to enslave humanity while hadiths are for liberation and happiness of humanity.it will remain as the guiding principle of 1.5 billions and people will be proud of it as now.education will improve the knowledge on hadith and open a debate.because of this 100000 people in america and 70000 in france are converting to islam.
    we dont hide our`scripture we propagate this.and keep inferior western civilization on foot.

    manusmiriti is not hadith it is kept away from the people.it is way how to cheat enslave kill humanity.

    tajender Reply:

    98%of pakistanis wants their country to run on sharia laws.they have to brought in mainstream.war between pushtoons and americans is turning them more and more towards
    islam.

    [Reply]

    Dr D Mishra Reply:

    the study included mainly elitr students

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    benoy why u were silent when isreal killed 1400 childrens of gaza their airforce was hitting hapless with phosphorous and depleted bombs.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    i do not condone what israel is doing in west bank…but it is your own muslim brothers – saudui arabia, jordan , egypt etc – who are supporting israel behind the scenes because they rsather get iran destroyed because iran is shia .. so they have a pact with israel, they just do not care how palestinians are treated…dont you think, if all the muslim countries act together, thatt palestinian issue will be resolved.

    tajender Reply:

    they are not supporting isreal.they are afraid of zoinists.public condemnation came from europe not from india.
    they want to contain iran.iran is threat to isreal being peoples regime.these rulers are selected by americans.
    hezbollah is house hild name in every arab home irrespective of shia or sunni.saudi wants weaker iraq not because they are shia ,but because they are threat to their regime.they were supporting americans against saddam,a sunni for same reason.why u people have so narrow approach.i could not understand.

  • Rizwan

    SHAN, everytime you cross the line by making filthy casteist statements (rank sewage etc) or attacking muslims in the manner shown below, I AM GOING TO WHIP YR PUNY BONG *** ALL THE WAY BACK TO CAL. SABE?
    But u behave, dude, and I will leave u alone.

    rpt-

    SHAN
    I am amazed that whenever you open your mouth, you come up with AMAZING STUPIDITIES-

    ‘ Pakistanis have less hatred now towards India ‘- are you a moron, SHAN. The slide of Pakistan towards wahabism is so severe that their hatred of India is dangerously obsessional. Afetr 26/11 there was gloating, you imbecile !!!!!!!!!!

    ‘ flood the area with halothane ‘ please tell me SHAN you are not a doctor. You come up with garbage. Listen pal, you should be barred from this blog for the heinous crime of STUPIDITY

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    I am amazed that whenever you open your mouth

    he dont open his mouth actually he opens his a.s.s.and shows every hair of this dirtyu hole.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan , I am going to force feed you bacon sarni.Then i will kick your arse like a football send you back to your factory.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    SHAN, you said above-

    ‘ I may have to visit Cal shortly , but incredible thing is I AM A FOREIGNER , this is a fact , my school friends and my mohalla friends avoid me , and my medical school friends try to run away.
    I dont know why ‘
    Do you think SHAN, that just like this blog, most find you MORONICALLY IMBECILIC, shrill and rude, and prefer to stay away. I am being dead serious

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Shan,
    can we avoid stereotypes like paanch waqt namaaz, please?
    I do not know about you, but I think it should be possible to have a adda or a majlis without obscenities, name calling, reference to private anatomy.
    Try, okay? And, stick to the topic to the extent possible- or else, all discussions in this blog descend to juxtaposition of manusmriti with hadith. Does Zia even need to write anything, anymore, I wonder; if our responses have no link to the topic under discussion.
    I really appreciated the restraint shown by Satish Haldankar above when he refused to discuss Modi above saying this blog is not about Modi- having been here for a long time, I know it took an enormous amount of self-control :)

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    Well said. However he has also said that he treats this as his private space for conversations with some people and you are among the CHOSEN ones.

    “post script, this is my private space with my mates, rajeev,dude , ashish and the rest of them(not panditji who is more of an uncle).”

    Your favoured status, I suspect is a recent change, because I remember some harsh lashes of a cow belt coming your way.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ Lmirza , very well articulated. but comment on this finding of mine. There is a female junior doctor who has come from pakistan works with me. She is dressed in baggy trousers ,lipstick , no niquab absolutely free will.She is pathan , and she says her family is very open. her father apparently retired from Air force. She however said after a long conversation , that there students in her class who were not open like her also some of her friends MARRIED TO THEIR”CASTE”(Rajputs) , we are talking about muslim girls here.
    now there is another Junior doctor of pakistani punjabi parentage , born in uk and graduated from birmingham , she wears niquab. this one i also had a chat with.She said she wears niquab to conform to her religion. she is intelligent and gave me the impression she is not at all convinced with whatever science has to offer on existentialquestions.
    My feeling is these girls are deracinated , do not belong to their place of birth , yet cannot go back to the land of their parents.
    because they lack an identity , they create this even stronger attachment to the religious identity.
    it is same with Hindus as well , not well spoken about. The BJP’s greatest support is NRI’s .
    Some of it is understandable , Like ashish mesmerised with Economist , now i live in the country of Economist and i know all about economist warts and all . many people in UK hate Economist , they think it is a right wing capitalist or english nationalism mouthpiece.Same i have seen in calcutta , when i visited last time one guy brought me a box of fried chicken and chips and chicken tetrazini . Now I hate all of this , I am mad about samosa , jalebi and all that . The thing is people in India are more attracted ror ape western culture than people resident in west for a long time . In fact NRI’s are more Indian than native indians .
    that is why the barjatiya films about family , brothers etc used to be such a hit. But when they remake western films like Salame Ishq it is a super flop in west.
    That girl really struck me , that all the sterotype about pakistan is just to satisfy the prejudice of panditji.
    Your analysis about the role of Tribalism in middle east is spot on.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @iASK,
    :)
    I am flattered. Since a man is known by his mates.. I am out of the closet .. at last.
    I was also known as someone’s homo-erotic mate not so long ago.. someone called Ravi, who has since (doubtless to escape my affections) changed his moniker.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    He might have changed his monicker but there is no change in his “affection” as judged by his responses toyou and contrasted that with his reponses directed to me. .perhaps another example of his “male gaze” that he is so fond of talikng about.And he had declared himself a sikh.
    now read on
    We met at United Coffee house in Delhi.
    …..
    ……
    …….
    the guys who work for me need physique, looks height . physique is a must . most are from punjab or haryana . My clients are hi fi people in delhi
    (page 297, from a book on India , written passionately by a gora)

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    I have changed nothing what so ever of any substance.

    What I have done is to merely adopt some common abuses thrown at me as my nom de plume, in the forlorn hope that no further name calling would be neccessary.

    I am sure by now you know that abuse still comes my way.

    I may have failed at changing him, but I sure am trying to change myslef.

    shan Reply:

    Ashish, remember the third law of motions from a book called Principia mathematica.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    You also must be knowing Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Both time and space are variable. http://www.mindpowernews.com/HumanTimeTravel.htm says, if you go back into the past, you’ll go into another universe. (As when time change, space will not remain same). You know what I mean. People who left India in 1960s took with them a piece of 60’s India. People who left in 90s have stored 90’s India with them. But India keeps moving on. Who can judge, which India is better? No one, including India are prisoners of past. Have a nice visit.

    I find too many common interests between the warring group. I feel these guys suppress it, because of their prejudices towards each other (Like common fascination towards xx chromosomes across the border between Rizwan and Shan). Come on guys, stop pulling each other down. Sania has gone, India deserves someone better than Veena Mallik. Whoever gets the princess is fine with us. :-) Want to stop writing, instead will read you people, whenever possible. Bye…

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, i know of Heisenberg principle but dont know much about it ,no use in my vocation.bobby once did enlighten us.as I understand every experiment is ultimately dependent on the observation of the experimeter (state) , so one can never be sure of what is the real value. i know about Einstein ’s famous equation E=mc2.I know if you acclerate above the speed of light , time shrinks .so if you push this shrinkage to a negative value then theoretically you can travelback in time . in my case it is more of a macchar (anaeophilis) which is causing distraction i would love to do without .
    Thanks for good wishes for the travel which is quite up in the air at th e moment , however let me return the compliment by recommending an incredible film you can watch over the coming weekend.
    The name is CATFISH.

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay My fascination for xx chromosomes is from any corner of the earth. The real revelation has been somali beauty (the lips) , and Mali beauty for legs,and syrian beauty , an iranian beauty. As for english only working class and some middle class , upper class english , no way even lured by inheritance. The inbreeding in english upper class produced a hermaphrodie , flat chested androgynous features , totally lacking in femininty..
    in India rural bihar is no 1 in my table.

  • L Mirza

    My sense is that these jasmine movements, rather than being the beginning of the end of Islamist terrorism, will result in the craetion of multiple terrorist states. And the mother of all terrorists, Pakistan, will continue to manufacture terrorists against India and the West.

    Except Egypt and Tunisia, and may be Morocco, most of the other middle eastern countries are tribal connections, with Al Queda exploiting the tribal frictions. Sala may be a bad dude from a “democracy” perspective; but he has been able to penetrate the terrorist network there in Yemen (number two breeding ground after Pakistan). With Sala gone, Al Awlicki will be in a prime position to take over; and Yemen will be the “new Afghanistan” for the terrorists – a base from where worldwide attacks can be planned, just like they did the 9/11. Al Awlicki will be the young Muslims’ Bin Laden, and he will use Facebook to create a new nihilist wave, more violent than Bin Laden.

    There is an Al Queda presence in Lybia; the longer the NATO activities contunue the better for them,a nd it looks like the likelihood of GAdaffi continuing for a longer time is good for AL Queda. Gadaffi will coopt the terrorists.

    A terrorist headquarters in Yemen; with their cousins well trained by the Pakistani ISI is the most likely scenario. The only way Islamist terrorism will quiet down is if Pakistan goes through a 180 degree change – however, their youth, instead of aspiring for a nobler “jasmine revolution” and transforming the country, are more and more made to believe that all their problems will go away if only they embrace the Arabic pure version of Islam and discard Barelvism and other indigeneous versions.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    thank you Ashish for supporting me. When SHAN uses words like ‘brahmin raw sewage’ or cheaply denigrates muslims, my blood boils. I blog a lot elsewhere, and in all places they would have banned him.
    If someone says to me, why are most terrorists muslim, I would have no trouble with that. I would talk.
    I just find SHAN cheap. He would fit in as the male DOLLY BINDRA in big boss.————–
    So remember wot i sez SHAN- my bad, dude. remember no more name calling or abuse of others

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Thus spake his holiness , microcephalic simianus.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan-

    Cool down; particpate without hurting individuals; attack and question ideas….

    Mishra cannot be blamed for his caste
    Rizwan cannot be blamed for his religion
    Shan cannot be blamed for his Bengali language

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Who would you blame when somebody called you an vermin and an oaf.
    As for the rizwan geezer it is just newton’s third law in action on zia’s website.
    as for my stand it is first law of motion “Every object continues to be in a state of perpetual rest or motion , unless that state is changed by some external agent”

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rizwan,
    You might know that the “Raw sewage of hell” bit is not original- it was first used by EV Ramasamy (better known as Periyar). Who also asked you to kill a brahmin before killing a snake.
    Funnily, the other persons on this blog who are as fond of Periyar and quote liberally from him is Ram Autar and lately Tajender.
    When I read them, I feel sad because I feel they are referring to an India which went out of existence decades ago.
    Periyar revolted against the bad practices of the era that he was born in. His “medicine” did a lot of good, given the circumstances. Does he need to be invoked in today’s India? Probably not.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Valmiki was born in !950, the year in which article 17,of the indian constitution formally abolished untouchability.How different was life after this impressive momentous change?. In his book JHOOTAN -the title means SLOPS , refering to waste food that people like himself was expected to collect and eat -valmiki evokes a childhood of something like internal exile in an UTTAR PRADESH (yes not PERIYAR COUNTRY)village near MUZAFFARNAGAR.
    AT WEDDINGS , THE CHUHRAS WOULD SIT OUTSIDE AND WAIT TO COLLECT THE LEFTOVER LEAF PLATES THEN SCRAPE UP THE WASTE FOOD, THE JHOOTAN FOR BOILING DRYING AND STORING.

    it was made clear to valmiki in EARLY ADULTHOOD even by some of his friends that they felt CONTAMINATED by his presence.

    Casteism remains one of the aspects of indian life that is hardest to understand.
    IT IS UNLIKE OTHER FORM OF PREJUDICE , an anti semite will ask why “they” do so well in businessand a white racist will fear and envy apparent black physical prowess.
    PREJUDICE AGAINST OUTCASTE IS BUILT ON THE IDEA YOU WILL BE POLLUTED IF YOU GO NEAR THEM.

    So in NOT TOO DISTANT PAST a boy would brush against an elderly sweeper in a corridor, the mother will whisper to him “Dont touch you will get a scale or TURN INTO AN INSECT!!!!!!
    A prayer of purification may follow . This will lodge in a child’s memory and even as he grows older (a la panditji) and less traditional or even INTERNATIONAL , living in EUROPE OR AMERICA (what a coincidence) THE INSTINCTIVE RESPONSE THE FLINCH REMAINED.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    FYI. Periyar was himself a brahmin…a snake in his own words ;)

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Periyar openly suggested to those who were marginalized within the Hindu communities to consider converting to other faiths such as Islam, Christianity, or Buddhism. On Islam, he stated how it was good for abolishing the disgrace in human relationship, based on one of his speeches to railway employees at Tiruchirapalli in 1947. Periyar also commended Islam for its belief in one invisible and formless God; proclamation of equal rights for men and women; and advocating of social unity.[100]

    At the rally in Tiruchi, Periyar said:

    “Muslims are following the ancient philosophies of the Dravidians. The Arabic word for Dravidian religion is Islam. When Brahmanism was imposed in this country, it was Mohammad Nabi who opposed it, by instilling the Dravidian religion’s policies as Islam in the minds of the people

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    most iconoclasts in history have revolted from within rather than without. Which is fine.
    Focus on the message rather than the messenger. :)
    That said, did Periyar bring about lasting change? Some, surely.

    shan Reply:

    @ashish, actually the once editor of your venerated magazine Economist , Andrew Neil , had an opposite view. The printing union in Uk had all sorts of closed shop practices and used to go on strike for trivial reasons. He had a lunch with Eddie Shah(parsee from India) , and told him only an outsider can break this stranglehold.He did by bringing in automated technology and moving to wapping from Fleet street . rest as they say is history.
    Same with Napolean a rank outsider a CORSICAN not a true FROG
    Regarding Periyar’s legacy , it did not percolate to north india , perhaps ambedkar had more sway.
    Are you aware AMBEDKAR’S SECOND WIFE WAS BRAMHIN

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ashish,
    I don’t want to sound casteist but I agree that Brahmins have not played a very constructive roles when it comes to treating people from lower castes. Periyar was right in his condemnation but his views are extremists which have resulted in politics of hate in TN. Today Brahmins are the opressed class in TN. Rather than working for equality, periyar has just created more hate.

    tajender Reply:

    mr ashish periyar not revolted against bad practices.he revolted against mental set up,which was asking them to do so.this is more valid even today.83 crores are below poverty line and those who sitting on top are busy in looting ,looting looting.secularism is to keep some muslims as friend ,and blame them when caught.like in case of hassan ali now and abdul rehman telgi before.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @tajender,
    you think Telgi and Hasan Ali were caught and proceeded against only because they were Muslims?
    Doubtless, you also think that Madhu Koda was just a hapless, clueless tribal like Shibu Soren, A Raja is in trouble because of his caste, Maywati and Lalu- likewise and so on.
    I remember Bangaru Laxman saying the same thing- that he was singled out because he was a backward caste. I remember Azhar trying to stoke up similar sentiments.
    Listen pal, a crook is a crook. He does not have a caste or religion. Have you heard of Raju of a company called Satyam? Or ND Tiwary? Or Suresh Kalmadi?

    tajender Reply:

    ashish raja is caught because he is dalit ,kalmadi is free.no problem.total worth of hasan ali is 3crores how incometax imposed penality 89000 crores on him.he is the face of many culprits.why they are not caught.telgi also,somebody sold goverment priting machine to him.are they caught,no.his stamp papers were sold in market with full knowledge of govrment machinary including dg police,are they in jail.
    in india if crook is high caste ,he is not crook.raju satyam is backward,bangaru laxman was dalit.

    shan Reply:

    Plonker Tejender more you speak more it is as fun as a dog’s f a r t .

  • Gopi Thomas

    An interesting book “The Berlin-Baghdad Express – The Ottoman Empire and Germany’s bid for World Power” by Sean McMeekin — gives an insight into global jehad promoted by Young Turks steered by Germans in the world war 1 days…….

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    young turk were jews ran aay to isreal after 2nd world war.they were instrumental in mascare of armenian christians.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Thanks, will shoot off to the library for ordering.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    from Vinod Sharma’s blog, my question to Usman Chowdhury from Pakistan, and his gracious response. Relevant to this blog as well-
    ————————+++++++++++++++++
    Dr Mishra, UK says:
    April 10, 2011 at 12:24 pm
    Dear USMAN CHOWDHURY
    I blog a lot on Pakistani newspapers and I am dismayed by the direction Pak society has taken particularly in last 5-10 years. Even the English speaking urbannites have been subsumed by this desire to radically Islamise EVERY aspect of their lives.
    Witness Meher Bokhari (affluent, articulate) viciously shredding Salman Taseer on his defence of poor Asia Bibi- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwccoYD4sUE – are we surprised thet Qadri then does his job and then sings naat to his captors !!
    Then there are these ridiculous SMSs which circulate even here in UK- who is munafiq, what is shirk etc. My muslim secy actually showed me a glossy pamphlet which advises muslims not to celebrate birthdays of their children or to let their kids go to other’s b’day parties because it is NON ISLAMIC !!

    It is what I refd to in my detailed post above as ‘the idea’, and that is what ppl to ppl contact across the border will break down, what the well meaning but ham fisted conditions of the Kerry Lugar bill will not.
    Your opinion pl, USMAN

    ps-
    Meher also praises Salman’s father that he had borne the coffin of Ghazi Ilm Din. Talk of living in the past !! Taught a very distorted history from childhood, are we surprised that Hoodbhoy is a traitor and this Ghazi a hero

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    and this was USMAN’S reply

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra, UK Reply:

    usman chaudhry Reply:

    April 12th, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Dearest Dr Mishra,

    Please accept my apology for not showing up early because of some personal commitments and had very little time to get back to you.

    Sir it’s a mixture of so many elements. Even though Islam was a subject matter right at inception but what makes it surface (more) within last 5-10 yrs is due to geo-political situation surrounding Pakistan and it is in this chaotic situation a belief is made that religion is the only tool to defend oneself. For instance one section of society believes that “US led war against terrorism” is “US led war against Islam”. This has given rise to increase in jihadi element and inspired anti-American sentiments in society. Even internal incidents such as that of Aasia bibi case, sections of society perceive it as foreign pressure to eradicate blasphemy law from constitution. So it’s a mixture of lack of exposure and knowledge about social and international affairs that has taken shape. So oppose everything which is non-Islamic.

    Like Mr Agent has given explanation about perceived cultural values of east and west I asked my father once about the same birthday issue. Why is it looked down upon? In his reply he explained to me; with every passing day we approach more nearer to death so if every passing day one leaf of the tree falls down is it wise to make marry about it? I replied no but it’s just the matter of how you look at things differently. To me it is full of opportunities making sure by next birthday we have achieved something in life. To which he replied what is the guarantee! you will live another day or more? I answered “hope”.
    To me it has nothing to do with Islamic cultural values and shouldn’t be all about Islamic and non-Islamic celebrations.

    As for Meher she has a peculiar style of bashing things let it be any issue/debate. Even in her interview with secretary Hillary Clinton she along with others were questioning KBL assistance in comparison to what US spends in a week inside Afghanistan. Drawing comparison to help Pakistan in investments rather than such pennies. So, it’s just her way of asking questions in a bossy way. If it is all about being Islamic then perhaps she should first mold herself to Islamic way of living rather than defending blasphemy law.

    Not much about Anna Hazare, the gandhian follower didn’t make much news in Pakistani news channel in his fight against corruption. Rather a source of inspiration for us to have one of a kind to oppose corruption charges against politicians.

    It gives me immense pleasure that you sought my opinion I do wish we’ll compare and share notes likewise in future.

    Thanks,
    Usman

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    mishrajee on 6th december in ayodhya leaders of rowdy brigade burnt alive 14 innocents who dared to come out in serch for the for food for their families.i hope u will take their case as well.
    for indian these 14 are more important than salman tasseer who was hated by his people and family,being playboy drinker and thieve like zardari.

    u are playing like ghandhi,who was more worried for khlafat and palestine than poors and hungry muslims of india.

    i recommend u see omar sherief comedy show of LOTEY AND LIFAFEY available on you tube.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    So, no point reassuring us with some poll statistics, PAK society, including young urbannites are on a headlong rush to hell, and we share a border with this unstable medieval society.
    A VERY POROUS BORDER

    doctor on indian side we have far more brutal organiztion RSS.what they have done nobody ever
    did on this comtinenet.read the riot stories by bbc representative on their blog.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Dear Usman choudhury, your country’s descent into this religious ANARCHY is nothing unique. History is replete with examples. The WEIMAR REPUBLIC in germany descended into chaos , the gremanic version of jihad in the name of virulent antisemitism , which killed the german jewish finance minister. Substitute FATHERLAND for JIHAD, the similarity is striking. Like your father , germans were inventing all sorts of explanation for the virulent antisemitism and exactly like islam HARKING BACK TO PRE HISTORY, with racial purity ARYAN race etc.Just like Islam is now trying to deny any indebtness to any other culture and DENIGRATING other value systems and culture , same happened in germany , every attempt made to extricate themselves from the judeochristian heritage. Thus Wagner , anti semite , extolling Buddha and dedicating the opera to Buddha.
    Nietzche so intoxicated with HINDUISM thinks manusmriti a highly intellectual document.
    Same I have witnessed in Panditji’s adopted country UK(most likely he has a british passport)
    I have come across in Tv documentary about 70’s and 80’s , the DECLINE OF BRITAIN and its response.Thus ENOCH POWELL apparently a latin scholar warning OF RIVERS OF BLOOD in UK due to influx of brown and black people. It received MASSIVE SUPPORT among the british people , just like blasphemy laws find amongst pakistanis . This is again because BRITAIN WAS GOING DOWN THE SLIPPERY PATH OF TERMINAL DECLINE.THE SUEZ CRISIS AND THE DRUBBING IS SAME AS THE DRONE ATTACK , DUE TO THE IMPOTENCE OF PAKISTAN and the reaction that has followed.
    THAT IS WHY MARGARET THATCHER INVOKED THOSE INFAMOUS WORDS”People feel they are getting SWAMPED by immigrants.
    This is a country which RULED HALF THE PLANET EARTH , now reduced to begging from IMF in 1970, NOT UNEXPECTED YOU WILL SEE VICIOUS RACISM IN ALL ASPECT OF BRITISH LIFE
    WHICH CULMINATED IN LORD MCPHERSON AFTER A LENGTHY ENQUIRY INTO MURDER OF BLACK KID STEVEN LAWRENCE DECLARE “Britain is a racist country”
    The response to this revealed more than the enquiry itself , Lord Mcpherson was INUNDATED WITH HATE MAILS. any echo of rose petals for salman tasser’s killers.
    BUT WITH NORTH SEA OIL AND THAT RACISM DIDN’T WORK THINGS MAY BE SLIGHTLY BETTER , BUT IMMIGRATION(read race card like anti india /kashmir rhetoric) is the central plank that propelled the tories to victory and is used again and again by Cameron.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Mishraji, this is from my Abba jaan- he wanted me to tell you in particular that he loved reading your recent posts- all this biz abt Objectives resolution, Jinnah and Zia touched a chord in him. Maybe 1 day I will read up abt it, but rite now thx for yr history lessons.

    In my words, dude- your writing is sick man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    He also enjoyed your exchange with Usman and sez u wasted as a doctor, thinks u shud be diplomat or summit like that. u do bring out the best in ppl

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    for old fogeys and cleaners from Heathrow- sick means wicked means AWESUM

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    For ignorant urchins , and bufoons, AWESUM should be awesome.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    gremanic version of jihad in the name of virulent antisemitism , which killed the german jewish finance minister. Substitute FATHERLAND for JIHAD, the similarity is striking. Like your father , germans were inventing all sorts of explanation for the virulent antisemitism and exactly like islam HARKING BACK TO PRE HISTORY, with racial purity ARYAN race etc.Just like Islam is now trying to deny any indebtness to any other culture and DENIGRATING other value systems and culture , same happened in germany , every attempt made to extricate themselves from the judeochristian heritage
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    rubbish and wrong islam accepts contribution of all civilizations we respect jesus moses and even aryan gods.

    the only similiarity is BOTH THE PLACES GAME IS PLAYED BY ZOINISTS (HITLER WAS SON OF JEWW)ENJOYING THE KILLING OF CHRISTIAN ON BOTH SIDES.

    that is why tone and rythm is same.if u read the literature published by their satanic cousins in india

    u will find the same parody here also.

    dont compare orange with apple .the momnt zoinist leave all these monkeys will be thrown in nearby rivers and canals.it is only on the streets of istamboul u will find church mosques and synoguoges standing side by side from hundreds of years.same in india.

    christianity has not changed the basic instinct of white skin.they are voilent and murderer.

    [Reply]

  • balwinder sandhu

    HAPPY BAISAKHI GREETINGS ALL

    @RISWAN and Hegde- you made mincemeat of isi+ Ravi’s whitewash of Pakistani attitutes. Keep it up puttra
    @riswan- what happened to that Lahore ki kali hehe
    L mirza- very good analysis of the uncertainties of these so called revolutions in the middle east.

    @ MISHRAJI, I have really really enjoyed your musings on Iran, Pakistan and your baatchheet with Usman from Pakistan. You throw so much material at us that it takes me days to catch up. Forget Zia, I come here and learn more from folks like you
    I saw that Meher Bukhari video you mentioned, hell hath no fury like a Pak lady and blasphemy. baap re

    @SHAN- you said this is your private majlis- well, puttar apni hi mehfil mein nangey ho gaye ? translation- people made you naked in your own party? Listen, it is Baisakhi so I will be kind. Sudhar jaa, jaahilon ki tarah bolta hai phir sabse mmaar khata hai. See how nicely Usman from Pakistan talks, and you, one of our own talk like a chuda?
    what is that bit about riswan’s prepuce, shame on you

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Rizwan made mince meat out of my Pakistani attitudes.

    Well two observations.

    1. You do not know what mince meat is.

    2. They were not my views, but a scientifically conducted survey.

    So I guess the mince meat here is YOU.

    So this self congratulatory clique is writing in each other’s support.

    Five nodding dogs, are still only Five nodding dogs.

    Regards ISI Agent & Shan’s Kuttar.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    jane do ravi.bade paaji hain.

    [Reply]

  • balwinder sandhu

    to all others, very busy now,
    but keep posting esp riswan, hegde, mishraji, mirza, vinay
    As Sharzwezenger said- I WILL BE BACK, hehe

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    he he , the buffoon speaks

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    bade paaaji ane ka shukriya.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Every one please standby for juvenile language, childish gang forming attitude, and bucket loads of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    just like blasphemy laws find amongst pakistanis

    blashphemy law must be amended as it cannot be removed from constitution of a country where 98%want country to run on islamic law.law itself is anti-islamic but punishment be reduced and should include other prophets as well.
    killing of salman was highly condemnable act.it was never like this.
    america should accept their defeat in afghanistan and vacate this area it will take 10 to 15 years to normalize the situation.american are hurting pakistan with 50billion dollars per year.they should pay for modern education and generate employement.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Syed, if you think it is worth your while visiting this blog instead of chikermane’s.
    I watched today a programme on Chanel4 called Despatches , http://www.chanel4.com/despatches
    It was about the non terrorism killing in Karachi which apparently far outnumber the terrorist killings.
    Did you know karachi had a population of 30 lakhs in 1960 now it is 2 CRORE.So the laws of economics will play its part whether the country is islamic or not. all these killings reflect limited resources and burgeoning population. Ten percent of karachi population is DRUG ADDICT.
    What struck me is the police. They were really far more better dressed , and his house was definitelyshowed more affluence than you would find in an average police officer in India.
    I got interested. I did some internet search. The economy of india and pakistan is not to dissimilar despite the loud claims of ashish. Both countries agriculture provides roughly 50% of employment. Textile is big in both countries, in india’s case provides 20% of the employment MANUFACTURING ONLY PROVIDES 17% of the Employment , a similar figure in pakistan . IT the bandwagon provides around 4.5 -7 % of GDP. PAKISTAN DOESN’T HAVE A LEFT FOR THAT MATTER ANY POLITICS , SO IS RANKED 8TH IN THE EASE OF DOING BUSINESS , INDIA IS 85TH.
    Also Pakistan has invested heavily in social sectors and its poverty rate stands at 37% pretty much similar to Indias. As I have maintained before THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INDIAN BRAND IN GLOBAL TOP HUNDREED, so barring pharma and IT , there isn’t great deal to brag about.INDIAN AGRICULTURAL OUTPUT IS 30TO 50% of the highest output in the world
    I know there are condos springing up everywhere and malls every where , BUT THAT DOES NOT AFFECT THE LIVING STANDARD OF AAM AADMI. Also pakistan has apparently switched all its transport and other vehicled to run on natural gas , WHICH IS PRODUCED INDIGENOUSLY THUS BUFFERING ITSELF FROM PETROL INFLATION..
    So despite all the tall claims INDIA HAS A LONG WAY TO GO, BUT GIVEN THE CHOICE , ONE WOULD ALWAYS LIKE TO SETTLE IN INDIA THAN PAKISTAN ONLY FOR THE FREEDOM AND LIBERAL CULTURE AND OPEN SOCIETY AND PLURALISM

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan good article.people will not like to live in pakistan becuse of security reasons not because of freedom to liberal culture.liberal have far more power in their establishment than in india. salman taseer said that i keep mullah on my foot.no liberal can say this about hindu fascists and terrorist in india.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Shan
    That link givn by you does not seem to work.

    One point I would like to make…
    Indian muslims are often compared with Pakistani muslims especially in the context of secularism ie. the standard insinuation is that if muslims in India somehow become a majority in India, the first thing they would do is enforce sharia in India and throw secularism out just as pakistanis have done. Sounds like a persuasive argument doesn’t it, if one looks on the surface.

    However lets dig a little deeper. The representative political party for muslims who have migrated from India to Pakistan is the Muttahida Quomi Movement (MQM), formerly called Mohajir Quomi movement. Now the MQM is the most secular and progressive party in Pakistan, is anti terrorism and maintains a very aggressive stand on secularism.

    This is what wiki says about MQM..
    “The organization maintains liberal, progressive and secular stances on many political and social issues.
    The MQM is one of few socially liberal political parties in Pakistan and organized the largest rallies in Pakistan in protest of the actions of al-Qaeda on September 11, 2001 demonstrating sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muttahida_Qaumi_Movement

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed, many thanks for your reply. The link didn’t work because the pod cast apparently is not accesible outside uk. However I will try to find out. MQM , I know a fair bit about. The mohajirs has had a RUDE AWAKENING in pakistan. They have become secular post 1980. They were greatest supporter of Zia , himself “sort of” muhajir. They find the word Muhajir word used to describe them highly offensive, as you know it means exile or refugee. The forefathers went with high ideals of MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD OR QUOM, only to find their rather DARK SKIN inviting the same kind of prejudice that SC/ST invites in India. Also they found out THERE IS NOTHING CALLED MUSLIM CULTURE, it is sindhi culture , punjabi culture or pathan culture. They must have discovered much to their dismay THAT CASTE SYSTEM IS ALIVE AND KICKING WELL PARTICULARLY AMONGST PUNJABIS and if not caste then TRIBE, for most of pakistan is tribal. Also they found out as much they liked to extoll the virtues of urdu language , these TRIBAL people were too coarse to appreciate the subtle nuances and being tribal in nature , would ferociuosly stick to their tribal customs.
    Next is DISCRIMINATION , this had become so extreeme that they have been pushed to the SLUMS OF ORANGI.
    I met a mohajir doctor , he said they would never give away their daughters or sisters in marriage to any PUNJABI(not a very charitable comment on punjabi men’s character)
    The MQM has a very big organisation in UK , and they all stick together, NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BASIS OF THEIR SECULARISM.
    Also Altaf Hussain after watching the film REFUGEE by JC DUTTA commented “Partition is the greatest blunder in history”
    Perhaps it reminded him of the fact that pakistan had steadfastly refused to accept BIHARIS who live a dog’s life in BANGLADESH and who wants to immigrate to pakistan.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    but still those who have migrated to pakistan or bangladesh fared far better than those who
    were left behind.we are walking skeletons.without any hope or future.can not go even abroad ,as during health test tb will be exposed.physical conditions of bangladeshis is far better than people of west bengal or other parts of india.sale dimaag kha gaye mera aisee shaitan quom duniya mein nahin dekhi.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Perhaps it reminded him of the fact that pakistan had steadfastly refused to accept BIHARIS who live a dog’s life in BANGLADESH and who wants to immigrate to pakistan

    partition of india was brhmncl game.shan.they gave sindhu ,where they have not history to muslims and took control of indu or hind .where they came settled.partition of india was one of the biggest treachory stupid muslim landlord did to muslim population of india.

    in 40 years biharis have assimilated with bengalees and now fkng them.they will stupid to go to pakistan where punjabis will keep them as their slave.

    from bangladesh they can go to china japan korea and middle east.can maker life better.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Hope is not a strategy; neither a solution. The question is “Islamist terror: Is this the beginning of a Phase 2 of Islamist terrorism” rather than the beginning of an end.

    Where are we now?

    - Military is exercising its muscles in Egypt. Youngsters are sidelined; army wants to make sure their clout remains teh same,w hoever come sto power enxt. Some of the Tahir leaders have been arrested. Islamic brotehrhood si the most organized group (except Mubarek’s party), while they have renounced several of tehir militant views, they remain basically a fundamentalist religion based political party.

    - The prognosis in lybia is that the terrorists will be a crucial element in post gadafi lybia

    - Yemen is anybody’s guess. A continuous turmoil, or a power vcaccum will work to the benefitt of Al Awlicki to spread his violent belief system. Al Queda will be welcomed there, or he will want to have his sepaarte branch of Al Queda.

    - US will focus only on Saudi Arabia; they do not have the capacity to control events in all the other countries. they will focus only on oil rich countries.

    The weak economic recovery will paly to the terrorists’ advantage.

    The wildest card is Pakistan. A weak government, an aggressive ISI who wants to have a showdown with the CIA – this means we will see more terrorism emnating from Pakistan. No progress has been made in dismantling the terror training centers; Pakistan army and ISI want to keep them to maintain the “strategic depth” vis-a-vis India. USA leaving or reducing its operations in Afghnaistan will make Pakistani terrorism threat worse since CIA and US army intelluigence iare not there anymore to monitor.

    My crystal ball says it is going to be worse. Let us hope I am wrong.

    Al awlickis people getting hold of pakiistani nukes or dirty bombs is a highly probable outcome if the turmoil continues.

    shan Reply:

    @ShoebK , just one word BRILLIANT.
    Also Mubarak’s party has been declared defunct by the egyptian supreme court , this is not how a democracy should germinate

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Shoeb K.

    I think you are brilliantly wrong.

    I do not see any attempt to describe what the “Phase 2 of Islamist terrorism” is going to look like. How will it be different from the Phase 1.

    The Egyptian Military is substantially funded and therefore controlled by the USA. USA likes stable strong governments. Since, post revolution, there has not emerged a strong acceptable civilian leader in Egypt, the USA has re-affirmed its support of the army. Not doing that would have resulted in a chaos and that would have let the Islamists in.

    Islamic Brotherhood, whist it remains an Islamic organisation, all the signs are that it is jettisoning the failed “Islamist strategy”. This, as yet, is not a completed transformation, because within the Brotherhood there are people who still wish to hold on to the more fundamentalist approach.

    Libya was a terrorist country before the present action started. The regime is terrorising its subjects as we speak. However, it was NOT Islamist before and is not Islamist now. So I am not sure where this fits into your Phase 2, idea.

    Al Qaeda, has been moving from Afghanistan, to Yemen for a while. This phenomenon had been taking place long before all these revolutions started. So a revolution in Yemen will either allow Al Qaida deeper roots in Yemen or it will destabilise it. I would agree with you that what will happen is any one’s guess.

    USA will continue to focus on Saudi, and that is the CORE of the issue. I have expressed this opinion before, until the Saudi Religious issue is sorted out, the wound will continue to fester.

    As far as Pakistan is concerned, its MAIN focus is India. It has created the “Islamists” as weapon of choice for low level war with India. The fact that this weapon has turned on its master, and its leaders have political ambitions which are greater than the Pakistan elite are prepared to concede, is the tragedy which is being played out now.

    If Pakistan was to secure a stable position on the world stage, it will send the Islamist weapon back to its garrisons. That is where India is playing its role.

    My crystal ball is saying that signs are positive, the Islamist experiment with violence has failed and the Muslim intelligentsia, is re-thinking their strategy.

    S Singh Reply:

    “Muslim Intelligentsia”….

    Well, that would be nice, ???

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Well they are running the world ragged, so better not sneer.

    It speaks volumes about you without adding anything to the debate.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Well, for a starter, Phase 2 is starting when Western countries are under severe economic stress, with cutbacks in all aspects of their budget. They are simply not going to go deeper nabbing the crazies. So, the reach and extent will be less, giving the jehadis additional “freedom” to operate.

    Jehadists will leverage situation in each country. Gadaffi had bought off the Jehadis in Lybia; with him gone, they will restart.

    Saudis will continue to bankroll jehadis to keep them out of Saudi Arabia.

    The key to Phase 2 savagery will be the nuke variations from Pakistan. Pakistan will degenerate and decline into an abyss, with post Zia fundamentalist children in all levels of ISI and army. They will coopt with international jehadis, train them in dirty bomb stuff, or give them dirty bombs (and then get paid by US to track the lost nukes). So, in my crystal ball, the phase 2 will be phase 1 with more failed states and nukes in their arsenal.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Shoeb K

    In that case we have different crystal balls.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Well, the optimist in me would love your crystal ball.

    But the realist and businessman in me makes me to bet on my crystal ball.

    Surprises do happen, often through ordinary men inspired by extraordinary events – A Mother Teresa (watching people dying on the streets of Kolkotta), a Mahathma Gandhi (when thrown out of the train), etc. I do hope transcendental leaders emerge to guide these movements without letting the crazies and jehadis hijack these.

    I hope you are right.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Also, the author is Bsing when he says “theologically, Islam remains soever pristine, while sociologically it is churning”… What a cro……. one cannot solve aproblem when one cannot identify it!

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Shoeb K

    I also read that sentence. I am not sure what it means.

    However, if I were pushed, then this would be my interpretation.

    The words Theology and Sociology are being used here, as some one else would use the words Theory and Practise.

    So, one could re-state that sentence as; In theory Islam remains pristine but in practice it is in a turmoil.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Historian Ayesha Jalal calls Pakistan “Paranodistan”. — the whole country is programmed to view every step taken by US (and India) with paranoia, as acts deliberately set to destroy Pakistan, and spending enormous time discussing and debating this, while ignoring the jehadism, extremism, army/mullah nexus etc…

  • Rizwan

    a happy Baisakhi to you as well paaji, tussi kitho chale gaye si?

    loved your earthy humour as usual- ‘ @SHAN- you said this is your private majlis- well, puttar apni hi mehfil mein nangey ho gaye ? translation- people made you naked in your own party? ‘

    hahaha

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @syed I have worked it out, just google chanel4, DISPATCHES , not despatches (my mistake) and the on the right hand side the top one is UNREPORTED WORLD , the programme on 15th April , Karachi’s brave heroes. Shouldn’t be any problem i hope.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    The May issue of Atlantic Monthly has (www.theatlantic.com) has a good (and sad) article on

    “Running the Asylum” – a schezophrenic tries to save the mentally ill in a LAND GONE MAD’ by Graeme Wood…

    I do not know how to link that here

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    Hindu India is emerging as the world’s largest country of illiterates. But the Hindus are not bothered about it because illiteracy has helped the 15% ruling upper castes (Hindus) to remain as permanent rulers.

    The mantra is: Keep the SC/ST/BCs (65%) plus Muslims/Christians/Sikhs (20%) — a total of 85% — poor which will force them to remain illiterate and also peaceful.

    NO COURAGE TO PROTEST
    Once you are both poor and illiterate you lead an animal existence. Brainwash them with Hindu poison which will dope them into eternal silence. Wonderful.

    Otherwise, by this time Hindu India would have exploded — blown into pieces if only the 85% of the sub-humans had some strength to stand and protest, a courage which they will get only if they are literate.

    HINDU RULE
    This is the secret of the eternal, unquestioned Hindu rule.

    Hinduism is a poison pill that can lull you to permanent sleep. Is it not working wonders with 1,300 million slaves enjoying their slavery? May be in the eastern part of India, some stray tribals are protesting. They are dubbed maoists and will be soon gunned down by their own brothers in the equally illiterate police force.

    SOUTH INDIA AS EXCEPTION
    Barring the four southern states of AP, Karnataka, TN and Kerala and to some extent Maharashtra, the rest of India is packed with hungry, illiterate Bahujans. It is in this part of India, called the “cow belt” (also called BIMARU states) that Hindu terrorist party is having its rule. The most stinking Hindu holy places are in BIMARU states.

    How the Hindus are ruling India?

    WORLD’S LARGEST ILLITERATE COUNTRY
    The secret is already revealed above.

    There are hardly any schools in rural areas. The rural India is totally devastated.

    Even if there is a school, it has no teacher. If it has a teacher, it has no building.

    The teacher is so ill-paid, he or she has no desire to teach. Because the teacher is so ill-paid. That is how India has become the world’s largest country of illiterates. But the Hindu rulers are least worried. Because there is not even a protest. Once upon a time, teaching profession commanded the highest respect. Guru Devo Bhava.

    Brahminists realised the danger and quickly killed the very teaching profession. Today the teachers command no respect from their own students.

    EDUCATION AS A LUXURY
    Many schools go without teachers because he or she gets no place to stay. If he is a Dalit or “low caste” nobody will give even a room. The basic salary of a govt. primary teacher in Karnataka is Rs. 6,235 which is less than the pay of a bank peon. Schooltext books and midday-meals are there only on paper.

    As you go North there is neither schools nor teachers. If both are present there will be no students because the parents are so poor that they can ill-afford to send their children to schools as they are needed at home to work.

    When filling the stomach of so many in the house is the problem, education is a luxury in Hindu India.

    See, how beautifully and effectively Hindus have kept India poor, illiterate and also peaceful.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Web is dying as China starts building its own internet
    OUR CORRESPONDENT

    Bangalore: Two big sensational news: (1) The worldwide web (WWW), popularly known as the internet, created by the American Jews, is dying.

    (2) The second more sensational news is China, the rising super power, is creating its own internet. It has pressed 35,000 engineers to do the big job which needs wiring under and over the oceans, round the globe. The Chinese wonder is not yet reported in the Western media but the West, particularly the US, is fully in the know of it.

    Fall of the West: As the US and the Western influence is fast declining, China, which has already taken over the No.2 place of Japan, is getting ready to replace USA. DV was the first in the world to predict it and we have proved correct.

    Hindu India falling: We have also proved right that “Hindu India” is fast slipping. The Jews are killing the US and the West. And the “Jews of India” are killing India after breaking it (1947) into three pieces — India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Afraid of more divisions. The world famous weekly, Economist (Sept.4, 2010) has announced the “web is dead”.

    Christian surrender to Jew: The world is anyway divided racially, class-wise, politically, and religiously. Added to this comes the disaster of the digital divide.

    This is the result of the White Western Christians surrendering to the zionist Jews.

    The Economist says the internet is getting divided. Each country including China and India are putting up its own “wall” and concludes saying “web is dead”.

    Did we not say that anything the Jews and the “Jews of India” touch is bound to die?

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram, please , please, please I beg to you.. Either discuss the subject or please stay away.. The subject is about ISlamic terrorism, whetehr it has started to end due to the uprising in middlee aste tc etc.. Now, if Hindus cause teh terrorism among Muslims, fine–articulate it, reason it..Dont do the ussual garbage recycling..

    And do something about the problems yous ee in rural India.. Your talking about is not going to end it.

    Please stip your nonsense, if you have any respect for others

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    benoy in india there is no islamic terrorism.hindu terrorism is under control.globally those
    who resist robbery of their nation are called terrorist.sometime victims of drone attacks try for revenge u call this terrorism.

    oakhlahama bombing was carried out by christian american.

  • tajender

    Please stip your nonsense, if you have any respect for others

    u have respect for us.if somebody plant bomb in europe because his dear one is killed in american
    bombing,u call this as global terror.attach this with entire muslims of world.this is not non-sense.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Listen, Ram; I do not have any issue if a Muslim, whose relatives and friends are killed an American attack, retaliates against people who did this.

    What I have a problem is with the “traveling salesman”. A Muslim from Saudi Arabia planting a bomb in New York for America’s actions in Somalia or iraq or whatever. Or a son of a Paksitani Air Marshal (after taking advantage oif American systems) planting an explosion in the middle of New York for Maerica’s actions in Afghanistan. Or a Bangalore engineer exploding in Scotland airport for crimes against Iraq.

    Unfortunately, when these things happen, it is called Islamic terrorism or Muslim terrorism. And rightfully so.. And you guys, instead of focusing on terms, or downgrading thiose saying it happens everywhere etc, shoukld persuade your fellow Mullahs and jehadis not to do this. Very rarely a Muslim voice emerges against these, they are always first in comparing to what happened zillion years ago, or the same thing happens in india , or IRA did the same thing etc.. IRA did not do the tarveling salesmen role. CAtholics did not bloow up worldwide..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde,
    Traveling salesman… LOL..
    Just for fun, think of modeling the behaviour of a disgruntled Muslim youth from (say) England, of (again, say) Bangladeshi origin planning to travel to India to avenge Koran burning in USA.
    So many constraints and costs and variables and likely paths .. imagination boggles :D

    [Reply]

  • ISI Agent & SHAN’s KUTTAR

    Binoy

    I am not blind to the fact that results of any survey are very much dependant upon the sample of respondents it chooses.

    I have quoted a Survey here, which people have tried to denigrate by suggesting that its sample was very much biased towards elite students. They have not provided any alternative viewpoint besides their tired old rabid prejudices.

    You, on the other hand have quoted another study, whose conclusion contradicts the conclusion of the study I quote. That is not unusual.

    However, I did provide a link to the survey I quoted; I did request you to provide a link to the study whose results you favour. I am yet to see that.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1683/pakistan-opinion-less-concern-extremists-america-image-poor-india-threat-support-harsh-laws

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Binoy

    Many thanks.

    So let us now discuss the report you favour..

    The very first paragraph, I quote:

    Last year, at a time when the Pakistani military was taking action against Taliban forces in the Swat Valley within 100 miles of the nation’s capital, 69% were very or somewhat worried about extremist groups taking control of Pakistan. Today, just 51% express concern about an extremist takeover.

    So I would hope you would agree that public view is changing in a positive direction. A way to go yet, but the movement is in a positive direction.

    Lets take the next two paragraphs:

    More specifically, Pakistanis also feel less threatened by the Taliban and much less by al Qaeda. Last year, 73% rated the Taliban a serious threat, compared with 54% now. Roughly six-in-ten (61%) considered al Qaeda a serious threat last year; now, just 38% feel this way.

    Nonetheless, both the Taliban and al Qaeda remain unpopular among Pakistanis — 65% give the Taliban an unfavorable rating and 53% feel this way about al Qaeda. Negative views toward these groups have become a little less prevalent over the past year, while positive views have crept up slightly.

    So Binoy as you can see, I am not sure if the following conclusions can be safely drawn:

    1. The whole of Pakistan has become radicalised and Talibanised.

    2. That the findings of the study I quoted are that different from the study you favour. Even if the two samples are very different from each other.

    Now I would have asked my Abba Jan to read this, but sadly, he is safe in his new abode in Adamabad.

    Whilst a comment from a plaint Pakistan resident would have given my prejudices pseudo authenticity, I rather rely upon scientifically organised studies than on individual’s anecdotal report.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    from last 35 years imperialist are destroying and plundering this area.why we expect normal behaviour from them.

    recent study tell that 98%want pakistan to be run by sharia lawa instead of christian laws.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Listen my Pakistani friend, I hope Pakistan is all what you want it to be.

    But the metrics are moving in a different trajectory; with everybody in the world hating that country.

    Only Pakistanis like you can save them.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I was not favoring one study vs other study. I wanted to include the three things thatw ere not in the survey you provided — 1) that the majority finds India as a threat more than Taliban or Al Queda 2) a huge majority (80% plus) want top enforce strict Islamic law (this does not jive with any “positive” trend) and 3) a plurality does not see Taliban/suicidebombings etc as a major threat.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Binoy

    I am happy for you to make the points the study you quote has brought out.

    No way that amounts to you or any one else having made mince meat out of me.

    That as I have suggested is just puerile rubbish coming from a dim wit.

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear iASK,
    may I interject in this?
    Last year, at a time when the Pakistani military was taking action against Taliban forces in the Swat Valley within 100 miles of the nation’s capital, 69% were very or somewhat worried about extremist groups taking control of Pakistan. Today, just 51% express concern about an extremist takeover.
    So I would hope you would agree that public view is changing in a positive direction. A way to go yet, but the movement is in a positive direction.

    No, the conclusion I would draw is the exact opposite. I would say that the Pakistani public is becoming less concerned about the prospect of being ruled by the Talibanis.

    More specifically, Pakistanis also feel less threatened by the Taliban and much less by al Qaeda. Last year, 73% rated the Taliban a serious threat, compared with 54% now. Roughly six-in-ten (61%) considered al Qaeda a serious threat last year; now, just 38% feel this way.
    This further supports the point I made above. This also supports the point Binoy makes above that most Pakistanis happen to think of India as a bigger threat.

    Nonetheless, both the Taliban and al Qaeda remain unpopular among Pakistanis — 65% give the Taliban an unfavorable rating and 53% feel this way about al Qaeda. Negative views toward these groups have become a little less prevalent over the past year, while positive views have crept up slightly.
    Dear iASK, this further supports my contention. The Pakistani public does not feel these groups are a threat BECAUSE their perception of these groups is steadily IMPROVING.
    And, 35% Pakistanis like thr Taliban and 47% like the Al Quaeda? And, these numbers are not significant?? Are you aware that political parties come to power in India and Pakistan with less than 35% of the popular vote? Do you realise what a HUGE constituency that is?

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, there is no question there is groundswell of support for al quaida and taliban. Simply because , they are the ones perceived as the one can give yank(WEST) a bloody nose.
    Regarding my observation about anti india feeling, from a very unscientific sample survey amongst pakistani doctors , I get the feeling because of KHANDOM in Bollywood , and previously Zee TV and other indian Tv chanels (now they are banned) the hatred has definitely waned . Also the overseas pakistani must convey some stories about indians . But I am aware I may be living in a cloud cuckoo land.

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish

    Happy to discuss.

    Lets take your first point.

    “No, the conclusion I would draw is the exact opposite. I would say that the Pakistani public is becoming less concerned about the prospect of being ruled by the Talibanis.”

    By this am, I right to take that what you mean is that the Pakistan society has accepted the inevitability of being ruled by the Taliban and does not find this prospect disturbing. I sincerely hope that is not what you meant. However, I will let you clarify.

    “This also supports the point Binoy makes above that most Pakistanis happen to think of India as a bigger threat.”

    I did not disagree with that, it is a pity that Pakistan sees its strategic interest in maintaining the illusion that India is an EXISTENTIAL threat to it.

    “Dear iASK, this further supports my contention. The Pakistani public does not feel these groups are a threat BECAUSE their perception of these groups is steadily IMPROVING.
    And, 35% Pakistanis like thr Taliban and 47% like the Al Quaeda? And, these numbers are not significant?? Are you aware that political parties come to power in India and Pakistan with less than 35% of the popular vote? Do you realise what a HUGE constituency that is?”

    Ashish, why am I getting this feeling that either you or I have misread something here.

    My contention, in line with the subject of this Blog, is that the direction of the trend is correct. I did say “way to go yet”.

    In others words attitudes in Pakistan are changing and the change is positive. If that was not clear then I am at a loss as to what more could I have said.

    Whist there are others here who believe that the mass brain washing is continuing and that the whole of Pakistan has become irreversibly radicalised.

    Which side of this argument do you fall.

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear iASK,
    The last question first. I declare myself on the side of those who are alarmed at the slide of the Pakistani society into radicalism. I can’t predict with any certainty about the reversible nature of the change.

    Now on to your first point- your hope is belied, I am afraid :) , that is exactly what I meant.

    Let me explain myself regarding the trend vs absolute numbers. I agree that from survey to survey you may have seen an improvement in attitudes; but, 47% Pakistanis liking Al Quaeda is scary. Supposing, there was a survey which showed that 47% Indians favoured Sati or closer to your adopted home, 47% of Brits supported kicking out all Indians from UK? Would it be of any comfort to you that the numbers have fallen from, say 53% as shown in a previous survey?

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Ashish.

    In absolute terms you are right that the measurements are alarming.

    My point was merely that on a snap shot by snap shot basis, there is evidence that the situation is improving.

    I am an optimist and will hope that this trend continues.

    In that respect, I am happy that Iam on the opposite sides of this trend arguement from where you are.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, the “honest” statistics is 75% OF white english will be extreemely happy if all non whites left , the figure for wales will be 10% and scotland 15%.
    Recently a tv serial “Midsummer Murders” SET IN ENGLISH COUNTRYSIDE, was very popular. The explanation given by the producers were that this is because THERE IS NO NON WHITE FACE in the serial.
    The serial therefore is very ENGLISH , or rather Olde English.

    [Reply]

    Ashis Reply:

    @Shan,
    Enid Blyton country; still :)

  • tajender

    A Muslim from Saudi Arabia planting a bomb in New York for America’s actions in Somalia or iraq or whatever. Or a son of a Paksitani Air Marshal (after taking advantage oif American systems) planting an explosion in the middle of New York for Maerica’s actions in Afghanistan. Or a Bangalore engineer exploding in Scotland airport for crimes against Iraq.

    hegde neither new york nor saudia is part of india why u are worried.the most repressive regime on eath is surviving of american military power.victims have to do something.somalia used to be most peaceful country.unfortunately it has port.only for this crimes they have destablized all the goverments came after ziad barre.destroyed all the institutions supported one faction against other.
    just to hide their evilness,they are taking name of islam.a hungry man is hungry man.his eyes and mind dont work.it will not be better if they talk to them(islamists)help to build normal somalia.

    in pakistan also from last 35years they are playing this bloody game.iraq they killed 1 million for what.4.5 millions are living in refugee camps.same drama they started in libya.

    alqaida is nato of deprived.it will grow.in bosnia 200000 muslims were mascared.alqaida and later american bombing saved them.

    regarding banglore engineer,nobody was killed or injured.judgement is yet to come.like banglorean doctor i am sure he will be released.

    anyhow indian education system is being destroyed through a conspiracy.my friend is running a scool in aligarh for girls of rickshah pullers and other 4th grade employee children.there u will see real future of india.like cruel ghandhi u are u are also more interested in palestine and khilafat than
    poor living condition of deprived indian.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    Unfortunately, when these things happen, it is called Islamic terrorism or Muslim terrorism. And rightfully so.. And you guys, instead of focusing on terms, or downgrading thiose saying it happens everywhere etc, shoukld persuade your fellow Mullahs and jehadis not to do this. Very rarely a Muslim voice emerges against these, they are always first in comparing to what happened zillion years ago, or the same thing happens in india , or IRA did the same thing etc.. IRA did not do the tarveling salesmen role. CAtholics did not bloow up worldwide

    why the killing of innocents in iraq is not called christian terrorism.u shoild also accept planting
    the bombs on religious and public places by prohit and his gang is hindu terrorism.because of that from last ten years accomodation is not given to muslims.there is feeling of hatred against them.they are facing descrimination everywhere.

    IRA did not do the tarveling salesmen role. CAtholics did not bloow up worldwide

    benoy is there any proof that boys were knowing that what is inside.they could leave box and go.
    one of them was neo convert with 6 month baby.why he will do this.courrier firms are run by zoinists
    netanyahu was 3 blocks away from explosions.he was directing the operation.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Dear Mr Benoy Hegde

    WHY ON EARTH DO YOU TALK TO RAMAVTAR (TAJENDER ?
    Have u not had enuff of his cut and paste which is drowning the good contributions here.

    BENOY, tell me why u engage ramautar in debate. Name 1 gud thing to come out of it

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Dear Rizwan

    Don’t you think that the matter of who engages with whom should be left to the individuals involved.

    Last time I looked, I did not see any one appointing you as the moderator for this blog.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    ravi yeh launda hai bk bak karne do lahoree laudiya iske mare gee seedha ho jaega.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    enuf

    choutia spelling should be enough

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    rizwan i regret using bad language against u.i hope u will forgive me.i am elder to u i should not done it.india has many harsh realities.

    dont forget when EHSAAN JAFFERY WAS ASKING FOR HELP TO SAVE the lives of 69 INNOCENTS,

    MODI AWNSERED,too abhi jeevit hai.9 yers after he is still cm of same state.

  • Ashish

    @Shan,
    I did not understand the Eddie Shah – Andrew Niall story.. never mind.

    I did not know Ambedkar’s wife was a brahmin; honestly, before coming to this blog, caste was only in text-books. Now I know what a red-hot topic it is :)

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    it was brhmncl bribe to dalit genius.she killed him with the help of his doctor boyfriend,both brhmn.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    women is below shudra.daughter of a brhmn is not considered brhmn.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    it was brhmncl bribe to dalit genius for not converting to islam.later he converted to budhhdism.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, I am staggered that you do not see caste a defining identity in NORTH FOR THAT MATTER IN SOUTH INDIA. You have been living in Delhi and studied in BHU, yet you do not see the pernicious effect of caste in UP , Haryana.One of my classmate (surojit) did his post grad in chandigarh , he came for the exam in uk, unfortunately couldn’t make it . He told me he had no idea caste pervades so much in every aspect of life in North. Apparently examiners are biased against certain caste. In WB caste does not GRATE though it is there , just flick through the matrimonial column in Ananda bazar Patrika and Bengali matrimony website, first word is caste followed by the name. In my family there is no caste feeling all sorts of intercaste marriage had taken place , in fact one to an agarwal but domiciled in WB, one firingee , but that ended in divorce but children have good connection to my cousin’s family.The real test would have been a MUSLIM in the family .

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    as per islam husband of muslim women has to be muslim otherwise marriage is haram.women can leave islam and marry.no problem.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    I 100% agree with this.

    Well said Shan

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    sikh who shot indira ghandhi ,main reason was caste.caste is the first identity in india.among hindus.cansay muslim and christian as well.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan and iASK,
    at last I got you to agree to something :)
    See, engineering college was a bit of a cocoon, especially in those days, it was very pan-Indian. We had students from all over India- only thing in common being their having been through JEE.
    So, caste never really intruded the discourse- neither did your family’s economic status, for that matter. All that mattered that you were there, ate in the same “mess” and bunked the same classes and smoked the same, ahem!
    It does not mean I was unaware of caste; it just means that it did not intrude into our lives.

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Eddie Shah was a news paper owner in the 80s when Andrew Neil was working for the Times. He may even have been its Editor.

    In those days the News Paper industry was very unionised and Eddie Shah treid to break the Union’s stangle hold, in particular the NUJ.

    I hope this explains it a bit.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Dear Benoy Hegde

    Sir, WHY ON EARTH DO YOU TALK TO RAMAVTAR (TAJENDER ?
    Have u not had enuff of his cut and paste which is drowning the good contributions here. sum1 throw me a lifejacket help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    BENOY, tell me why u engage ramautar in debate. Name 1 gud thing to come out of it

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Here is a life jacket.

    Dear Rizwan

    Don’t you think that the matter of who engages with whom should be left to the individuals involved.

    Last time I looked, I did not see any one appointing you as the moderator for this blog.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    ravi bhai snakes with smooth and beautiful skin carry more poison in their fang.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rizwan

    How long can one tolerate stupidity from him? He is bringing all Indian Msulims down…really..
    Zia should block him out…

    I will ignore in future

    btw How is your Lahore girlfriend?

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    benoy u did awnser any of question.he dont know lahori girls.he is innocent gentle boy.neverthles next time either u awnser my question or dont write that muslims are involve in local or global terrorism.now nato is bombing libya.for what some libyan will surely do something in italy or france.italy was financially helped by ghaddafi a lot.dont say muslim or islam.it is natural everybody will act in the same.

    i am ready if u want to work for upliftment of poors

    . He is bringing all Indian Msulims down

    tell me in what way.i am informing u the true status of our primary education system.u are brhmn hate is ur duty.if i dont sing ur song in ur rythm ,u will declare me anti-indian.

    next time if u blame muslims or islam keep proof with u.my community has lot of bad people so u have or any other community.but any minor mistake by muslim ,u attach this to islam muslims international and global terrorism is bullshit.keep proof i will agree otherwise i will challenge.
    muslims are creators of wealth golden goose of indian economy.u people dont do anywork except spreading hatred and dividing society.my crusade against hate preachers will continue.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra, UK

    @Ravi ISI,

    You said-

    ‘..Dear Rizwan -Don’t you think that the matter of who engages with whom should be left to the individuals involved..’

    In all fairness, then so should you keep out of a polite conversation between Benoy Hegde and Rizwan. And when Benoy agreed with Rizwan subsequently, that kind of closed the loop.

    BW

    [Reply]

    ISI Agent & SHAN's KUTTAR Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I entered the conversation because A was telling B how to behave. What rights has A got to do that.

    However, you should have noted, which you did not, because you are a self appointed leader of the nodding dogs gang, that when Binoy decided what he wanted to do, I made no comment.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    while ignoring the jehadism, extremism, army/mullah nexus etc…

    they have already destroyed pakistan.raju thsi is fact.they are hurting pakistan with 50 billion dollars per years.to win afghan war.when soveriegnity of nation will be put in danger all sections of society will unite.
    why u are worried pakistan is not part of india.it is true that every pakistani hate americans as root cause of their suffering is because of them.

    [Reply]

  • Indian Men

    No U are Not an “expert” on dating Indian men… I believe it should not be the opinion of any women other then Indian!

    How would u feel if say some Indian women declares herself that she’s an “expert” on dating Asian men?

    Why don’t u white trailer trash just LEAVE us Indians alone… Sorry We are Not interested in you! Get it?

    [Reply]

  • Soma

    Can you put a post about your tips of dating an indian. Pros & Cons alike. Please ignore the previous Indian man post, from Pakistan .

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Linda-Smith/100005585472869 Linda Smith

    India still nice to travel frm jaipur to Goa for more information about india and other events http://www.expatsinindia.org

    [Reply]

  • Greg Naas

    After reading your GOA article , you really have the belief that you’re a “journalist”, wow.

    [Reply]