The rainbow won’t turn monochrome in Jamia



In a judgement minorities called historic, a court last week declared Delhi’s Jamia Milia Islamia – preferred by many Muslim students — as a minority institution. A completely preposterous debate whether the university would now cease to be a secular institution, however, raged on.

Many students, teachers and even stakeholders from outside were simply upset. Jamia’s days as a secular university are over, they thought. Others felt the university was now set on a path of isolation. One outlandish apprehension was that the university could simply pass into the hands of fundamentalists.

None of the above is a true, accurate and fair conclusion.

Jamia and the law

A minority institution – linguistic or religious – enjoys the privileges of Article 30, enshrined in Part 3 of the Indian Constitution. Jamia’s minority status — in the eyes of Muslims — constitutes a bedrock freedom directly borne out by Article 30, which governs fundamental rights. Such rights, by law, cannot die, be surrendered or forfeited. One of these allows minorities to set up and run their own institutions.

Jamia was founded in 1920 in Aligarh by Muslim intellectuals as part of anti-British activity during India’s freedom struggle. It was run by the Jamia Society comprising some eminent Muslims.

Then in 1988, in one fell swoop, it was incorporated as a central university by an Act of Parliament. To Muslims, this didn’t make sense.

Jamia has been an emotional anchor for Muslims, who saw the state snatch away an institution raised and bequeathed by their founders, even as others, such as St. Stephen’s flourishes.

A three-judge bench of the National Commission for Minority Educational Institutions, which has powers of a civil court, concluded that Jamia was already functioning as a minority institution in 1988 when Parliament passed a law to make it a central university. The overarching principle is that once a minority institution, always a minority institution.

In its judgement, the commission noted that when the Constitution came into being on 26 January 1950, and along with it Article 30, Jamia was being run by Muslims. Therefore, on that day, it enjoyed the privileges of being a minority institution under Article 30 (1). The Aligarh Muslim University — the other Indian institution vying for the minority tag — was not a minority institution on that day, having been set up by the British government of the day, according to the judgement.

Secular, not religious

It is an irony that Kapil Sibal, the minister responsible for education, was opposed to Jamia being given the minority status despite Sibal being educated in a minority institution himself: Delhi’s St. Stephen’s College.

There is no need to fear Jamia’s minority status. It does not make Jamia a religious place; neither does it turn it into some kind of an academic ghetto. Jamia will not stop teaching multi-disciplinary secular subjects, nor will it stop enrolling students from other communities.

Jamia can now reserve up to half of its seats for students of the community it represents. That keeps the rest half open to all. Rather than promote isolation and seclusion, I see it achieving inclusion and pluralism.

The literacy rate of Muslims is well below the national average, according to the November 2006 Sachar report. Muslims — mostly Sunnis — make up 13.4% of India’s population, yet hold fewer than 5% of government jobs and make up just 4% of undergraduates. For a community lagging on educational indicators, the minority status helps speed up minority enrolment.

Minority-serving institutions elsewhere

The larger goal of a minority institution is to allow linguistic and religious minorities preserve their cultural ethos. The immediate objective is to focus on the educational needs of minorities, who have historically lacked education and generally demonstrate lower literacy rate. This is indeed true of minorities everywhere.

In the US, for example, minority-serving institutions are colleges and universities that have a special focus on serving the needs of a minority audience. A list is available here. Learn about US minority universities here.

Just like the Aligarh Muslim University and Jamia Millia Islamia, these universities have a historical tradition or mandate to serve a specific demographic student population, but often serve non-minority students as well.

In the US, there are three categories of such institutions, mainly denoting a particular American minority group, such as Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs); the Hispanic Association of Colleges and Universities (HACU) and the American Indian Higher Education Consortium (AIHEC), which is the association of tribal colleges and universities.

According to the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended, an HBCU is “any historically Black college or university that was established prior to 1964, whose principal mission was, and is, the education of Black Americans, and that is accredited by a nationally recognized accrediting agency or association determined by the Secretary [of Education] to be a reliable authority as to the quality of training offered or is, according to such an agency or association, making reasonable progress toward accreditation.”

Founded mainly to overcome racial and cultural barriers in education, HBCUs have evolved to fulfill new contemporary roles. More than 100 HBCUs today educate more than a quarter million students, according to America.gov. And about four-fifths of those students are African-American but thousands of others enroll for reasons of educational quality, and for the opportunity to enjoy a unique cultural experience.

Jamia’s next battle

In India, universities like Jamia already cater to educational needs of all groups. Universities are places where Muslims must meet their shared global destinies. So, teachers and students must remember to strike that delicate balance between preserving their ethos and yet embracing new ideas and thought. It is a cradle of that hallowed Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb, which stands for the blending, rather than clashing, cultures of Hindus and Muslims in northern India.

Jamia’s administrators should further internationalize its curriculum and education features. An international experience should be a standard feature of attending a twenty-first university.

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  • raj

    st, stephens has 10% reservation in all course for non christian – SC & ST
    but jamia
    Minority status means the Jamia Millia will no longer have to give reservation to Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe students. The petition for minority status had been moved before the quasi-judicial body by the Jamia Students Union, the Jamia Old Boys Association and the Jamia Teachers Association in 2006.
    — it seems they want govt money & more control
    http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/23/stories/2011022365252200.htm

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    If a student from St Stephens and one from Jamia Milia Islamia apply for a job, who will get the job -

    Aren’t Muslims making their situation worse by making Jamia an ‘exclusive” university, making the Muslims more monolithic and more inward, without interactinbg with students of diverse backgrounds?

    prejudice or no prejudice –my foot — does the name make sense or should it be changed, even if it is only a Muslim college. Will it be better for teh students if they say they graduated from Mohamed University or Akbar University rather than Jamia Millia Islamia university..unless it is for an apprenticeship in Juma Masjid???

    The HBCUs here are not examples of scholarship or ones where recruiters stand in line to recruit. Howard is not Harvard! In fact, unfortunately, they have become the pools for fulfilling the “minority” quota in employment in large public companies. A black if he got admission in Moorehouse college or say a goo state university, eg Georgioa tech, will choose Georgia Tech, relegating the HCBUs to catering to inept students

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde ground reality is different.there are christchurch colleges in colleges with hindu religious names.even if it will become minority university 50%seeats will remain for outsiders.islamophobia will finish soon.what upheavels u are seeing or the riots in middle is directed by global oil elites.
    university is for those who cannot afford costly education.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Jamia Millia Islamia university
    this name was by its founder dr zakir hussain.our ex-president.why i should change my name.

    making Jamia an ‘exclusive” university

    hegde come india see india then u comment.jammia millia has 75%hindu students.u hate the name islammia.dont worry we are employing 20 million non muslims can employ 10000 from jamia millia as well.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, you & ravi , are the ones shouting at every chance that hindus killed education & sc/st are ignored from education.
    now a muslim university will not hv reservation for sc/st but you are very quite about this discrimination , of muslims on kafirs.

    had it happend in any other university, pseudo seculars like you will shouting for reservation.

    shan Reply:

    @raj, GOOD POINT AND VALID POINT

    ram autar Reply:

    raj,

    had it happend in any other university, pseudo seculars like you will shouting for reservation

    banaras hindu university.tell me any minority which has this.

    HATE IS UR DUTY.LIE IS UR STAPLE FOOD.

    raj Reply:

    HATE IS UR DUTY.LIE IS UR STAPLE FOOD.

    —- why don’t you open my eyes to truth.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Binoy hegde , you are absolutely right .If you are from Howard , then chances of you landing a good job is slim .THOUGH MIND YOU JEWS HAVE QUITE A FEW INSTITUTION IN NEW YORK which are very high quality as well as under total JEWISH CONTROL . certainly i know of medical colleges ,like albert einstein and long island jewish. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WHEN SHALL WE BECOME JUST INDIANS , as vivekanda said after his trip to uk on a ship “I thank the british govt ,for once making the bramhins and non bramhins feel same ie, NATIVE class in british parlance. So that is the point THE WHOLE WORLD PERCEIVES US AS PAKIS as much we like to hate , so these majority minority debate must end. for that to happen every indian should become SECULAR in outlook. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO CALL ME A DAY DREAMER.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rohit , you plonker , this quota is also known as POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION, that is the ONLY thing that makes me proud to be an Indian , though i am not a SC/ST. The day SC/ST PREJUDICE disappears the quota has to disappear.
    Zia is quite wrong in bringing in BLACK AMERICANS IN THE DISCUSSION. Blacks suffered at the hands of LYNCH MOB, SEGREGATION , Muslims segregated themselves, infact Deoband website advises a young muslim to utter TAUBA million times as a penance , for the sin of touching the railing of a temple where an IDOL is housed,
    In fact we should turn our discussion to STATE OF EDUCATION IN INDIA in general.
    I think it is ****. There is not a single university in TOP HUNDREED. So before sqabbling over majority minority status , efforts should be made for really high quality education.
    As much the gentleman graduated from BHU like to claim , education standard in India is dismal .
    Infact everything that happens with Jamia Milia will only concern ZIA AND HIS FAMILY.
    FOR THE MASS OF MUSLIMS , this discussion is irrelevant.
    THEY NEED PROPER SCHOOLING AND ENGLISH MEDIUM EDUCATION NOT ****** MADRASAH EDUCATION.
    Also massive number of TECHNICAL SCHOOL need to be opened , in UK there is course for hair dressing(3yr), Plastering, Brick laying , Electrical wiring ,and most sought after is PLUMBING.
    So rather than addressing the CORE ISSUE , some bullshit like minority/majority is going engage the attention of Zia class , because that is where his interest lies so far his children are concerned.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    minority majority issue was started by savarkar when he came from andaman jail.zoinist jailor taught him this lessons.that is why i say brhmnsm is terrorism ,hurts even brhmns like any other community.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Also massive number of TECHNICAL SCHOOL need to be opened , in UK there is course for hair dressing(3yr), Plastering, Brick laying , Electrical wiring ,and most sought after is PLUMBING.
    So rather than addressing the CORE ISSUE

    excellent idea.thsi is the remedy of many maladies.this will provide job to millions.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    YOU ARE ENTITLED TO CALL ME A DAY DREAMER

    shan u are not day dreamer.hate mongering of brhmnst(not brhmns) have no taker.creator of wealth wnt peace.

    vivekanda said after his trip to uk on a ship “I thank the british govt ,for once making the bramhins and non bramhins

    swamijee was thankfull to britisher whlie MN ROY a brhmn, was thankfull to muslim rulers of india
    for equal treatment of indians in their courts.

    [Reply]

  • Rohit

    Well this is a welcome judgment. Now general category students will have a better chance of getting admissions in Jamia because there are no SC/ST/OBC reservations.

    The haters above only like to see the negative. If they were fair and rationalthey would realise that Brahmins and other upper caste Hindus that get shunted because of not belonging to the right caste in other unis will have fair and equal rights in Jamia.

    This should also be done in the AMU and other minority institutions as well. General category students have suffered unfairly by this quota attitude and Jamia decision is finally a welcome relief from the stragulationof quota politics for those in the General category no matter which religion they belong

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    A point by point rebuttal of all the arguments that Zia makes; ironically in HT itself.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Let-some-fresh-air-in/Article1-667562.aspx

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @AShish, Blimey, what the hell are you doing at this time of night if you are in Delhi. If it is INSOMNIA, then try these measures , cut down on tea and coffee drastically , do not read a book while in bed , lot of physical exercise in the daytime , cut down on smoking as well , though CAFFEINE is the main culprit along with stress. Also if it has been going on for some time , then you need a gentle sleeping tablet to train your brain to go to sleep. Sleep is bloody important , that is when all the repair of the body takes place.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    seems like good advice..
    body is tired, mind is tired, just can’t find sleep. No, it is not coffee, chai or charminar addiction- you would expect this of a bong, but no!
    Your diagnosis is correct; it is stress. I have not needed a sleeping tablet ever.. but, who knows, might dip into my father’s medicine cabinet tonight.

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    it’s the other way round. Please treat my piece as a point by point rebuttal of the article you have cited and which appeared prior to the blog above. thanks

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Blimey, Zia, can’t seem to remember you coming to these blogs. Do join in , it will be more interesting. Also reveal a bit about yourself , where you hail from , if from Bihar then I feel a kinship , as I was born in Patna. Infact I feel that kinship with the “poppy field” ones I meet In UK either mauritian or surinam or trinidad.and nine out ten of them muslim BUT THAT PURE BIHARI simple genial look.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Hi all, I got it wrong last week. This is what I predicted-
    ———————-
    Zia’s next blog will be on the Godhra judgement- brace yourselves- debators, contributors, anarchists, fundos, rationalists, secularists, pseudo-secularists, sickularists, Pakistanis with hindu names, friends and enemies and those in betweens.
    These comments were written in humour. Any resemblance to living characters on this blog IS intentional.
    Till we meet again. Adios, salaam, namashkar.
    ——————————–
    So here I was all fired up for a fiery Godhra debate. Jamia becoming a minority institution seems tame. Will come back later

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @mishra, last week i bet it will not be godhra this week.
    there is nothing for zia to write about it. same as ayodhya judgement. how many muslim writers, mentioned the verdict has to be accepted.
    just side step it, maybe zia will write after reading the full verdict. just in case, keep your notes ready…

    but think bjp will bring up in next election

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    main condpirator is released.gujrat mein modi ka rule.in high when investigation will thorough and deep ,ONE OF THE RIGHT HAND HAND MAN OF MODI WILL BE CAUGHT.they did this to provocate hindus and start riot which was preplanned.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    muslims burnt the train….nothing to do with modi

    ram autar Reply:

    pm

    muslims burnt the train….nothing to do with modi

    it was burnt by rss goons to incite hindus to attack muslims.train was full of karsevak.who locked the doors from outside.trouble started when gundaas who were calling themselve ramsevak kidnapped a girl of tea seller from the godhra station.40-50 muslim ladies demonstrated aginst them.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, burnt by rss goons
    — keep repeating it 100000 times, still it will not become true.

    sam Reply:

    Godhra train burning is nothing but part of ISLAMIC JIHAD to kill Hindus.

    This jihad must be stopped.
    islam should be abolised if it cannot respect hindus.
    when will islam be civlizied and stopping calling everyone else with derogatory names like Kaffir ?

  • http://techcentral.in Kunal

    I think all admissions should be on merit with some seats reserved for poor, disabled etc.

    Jamia Milia is right to have asked for a minority status as per the constitution, but the constitution itself has to be amended.

    There are heaps of colleges in Mumbai where you have Gujrati quota, Sindhi quota, South Indian quota, Punjabi quota, and Muslim quota.

    Why do you need all these ? Should a Gujrati businessman start a college only if Gujaratis get 50% of the seats ? What about others. ..aren’t they all Indians ?

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @kunal, There are heaps of colleges in Mumbai where you have Gujrati quota, Sindhi quota
    — you cannot just blame them, some pay huge donations to collages & request a certain % be reserved for poor students from their community, sometimes the colleges go after donations promising these things for donators. if on one applies, then its open category.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    donation is also reservation

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    That’s what I am asking. If you pay donation to a college to help poor students – why do you have to specify that you are going to help poor students only from your community.

    Isn’t that discrimination ?

    It’s fine if a minority community is disadvantaged for some reason, but what dis-advantages do Gujaratis have when applying for a MBA course in say Narsee Monjee college ? Is the MBA exam in Marathi , that they need a special 50% quota ?

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    you mentioned bombay, so in that context, poor from kerala, andhra, is a minority there.
    some southindian donated money for poor from these states.
    i agree this is discrimination, but its like some rich guy paying for poor tution fees.

    Why do you need all these ? Should a Gujrati businessman start a college only if Gujaratis get 50% of the seats ? What about others. ..aren’t they all Indians ?
    — you cannot compare education done for business & real education. today its 90% business,
    there are 1000’s of educated unemployable graduates.
    may be next generation does not fall into this trap of buying education,

    Rizwan Reply:

    I would request everyone to concentrate on muslim education in this blog and pl do not indulge in general muslim bashing.
    Dr Mishrajee, bloody brilliant lines above. All of us in the muslim community think the same but are too shy or intimidated to speak up. And the so called muslim loving leaders are not too intelligent to come up with uplifting ideas like these. Whop cares about Haj subsidy??!!!
    Dr Mishra for education minister – yes I support that. Presidentship- we will think later. ha

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    mishra dr- thought provoking ideas but difficult to implement. This creamy layer among SC/ OBC will riot if their privelages are taken away from them

    shan Reply:

    sandhu , no the creamy layer cannot force the agenda , india is a poor country , the rag tag layer far outnumbers the creamy layer .IN UK THERE IS A THING CALLED EDUCATIONAL MAINTAINANCE GRANT , and it is MEANS TESTED. So the operative word is MEANS TESTED.

    Kunal Reply:

    It’s fine if rich pay for the poor tuition fees, but that’s not the case here. The fees aren’t being paid, it’s just a quota and that too for a certain community.

    If it would have been fees i wouldn’t mind, but then again why pay fees only of poor from South India ?

    I am not confusing education done for business and real education. I just gave example of a business college. I am not sayiing that college is a business.

    raj Reply:

    The fees aren’t being paid, it’s just a quota and that too for a certain community.
    — ok, its quotas, but first preference to particular community., you can extend it by saying, what stops other communites from helping themselves, any how its their money. in malaysia you can find a lot of privately funded chinese medium schools, as the govt has quota, maximum for malay & rest for chinese & indians.
    same here, instead of fighting why other communities are not treating others as equal we can be arguing for days.
    point is , govt public money should be for maximum benifit of society., rather than some group.
    this university gets a lot of money from goverment.

  • ramesh

    II SEE MORE SUCH DIVISION BEING CREATED BY THIS CONGRESS. KAPIL SIBAL WHO HAS A GREAT JUDGEMENT WHILE TALKING ABOUT CAG REPORT ,SEES NO HARM OR ZERO LOSS IN CREATING UNIVERSITIES BASED ON RELIGION AND CASTE.
    TOMORROW SUCH INSTITUTE WILL BE FOR SIBBALS ONLY,SINGH SONLY ,KHANS ONLY ETC ETC.
    AFTER ALL INDIA IS A SECULAR COUNTRY?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Actually kapil is a good visionary and capable guy. My gut is that he is inhibited by the practical issues of winning elections, appeasement etc.

    It is for us – Kunal, Ramesh et al – to rectify the system. We should have a jasmine revolution to straighten outr stuff. It would not take much effort to put fear in these guys. The politicians and bureaucrats are taking all of us for a ride focused on their well being, their continuity (and their children’s) while the common man struiggles with day-to-day problems like lack o0f electricity, sanitation etc even though incomes are going up (thanks to teh ingenuity of entrepreneurs and companies like Infosys etc that sprang up in the last 15 years).

    Community has to get involved at a grass-roots level.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @singh et al, There is a saying in bengali, Jey jai lonkai , sey hoi ravan , roughly translated means WHOEVER GOES TO LANKA , COMES BACK AS RAVAN, in this case the murky world of Indian Politics, ref that rapist MLA in maharashtra Dilip Wagh

    [Reply]

  • http://vbbcv dfgfdg

    Why Jamia’s identity needs explanations. Why you don’t go to St stephens or Guru teg Bahudur and many more and ask their take on secularism , This university was founded by muslims and nobody helped in its making , When it has reached to a position then every one wants to share the cake.
    If you think with some logic then its still good for general students whose quota from 22 % will grow to 50 % with no SC/ST quota .

    [Reply]

  • http://techcentral.in Kunal

    Who wants to go to a minority institution anyways ….unless it’s really good and really ranks high up. The Jamia Milia Institute will itself degrade it’s standing by not taking students on merit.

    I would prefer a secular and cosmopolitan institute where students are taken by merit, than go to such useless institutions.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Storm in a teacup.

    Kunal’s statement really says it all. I understand teaching standards in Jamia are not bad. Market forces will eventually force Jamia (as all other institutions) to professionalize and further improve.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    I think Muslims fear that while being victimised elsewhere in the country with communal biases and violence, their institutions will also get filled with non-Muslims, which would usurp the already shrunk spaces. But won’t accepting mostly Muslim teachers and students in Jamia prevent the entry of bright students and teachers from other communities, whose presence could create a progressive and competitive atmosphere? Interacting with a wide diversity of people is good not only for students’ careers but also to reduce communal prejudices and perceptions of victimisation. The minority tag has outlived its use and needs to be discarded.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Let-some-fresh-air-in/H1-Article1-667562.aspx

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ruary 28, 2011 at 3:48 pm
    I think Muslims fear that

    MUSLIMS DONT FEAR U ARE FEARFULL.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,

    i just cut & paste an interesting part of that article written by a muslim. go catch his balls.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    On Jamia Milia, exclusivity, minority status etc…

    Five young Muslims died here two days ago in this south west corner of India in explosions while making bomb – Rafiq (24), Sameer (23), Riaz (28). Shabir (21), Fazal (22). Sameer just got married last week. Another four Muslim boys are in critical condition.

    This occurred in Nadapuram, a tense area, although whoever the bomb was supposed to be used against never exploded a bomb and never killed anybody in a targeted fashion. As usual, Congress party is saying “oh, they were playing with some firecrackers’, no need of police investigation, etc etc.. How long can traitors be in charge of the country? Count Dracula is in charge of the blood bank!

    And this is all in a place where historically,” time immemmorially” people lived together, went to mixed schools and colleges. Just imagine what will be the situation here now if all the Muslim kids went to outfits like Jamia where they do not interact with anybody other than Muslims..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    GOPI traitors are in jail and their backers sitting in isreal and america will be caught soon.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Jamia has quite a few good departments; I am sure they will continue to do well for some time.
    Right now the number of Muslim Students are ~ 51%; so, reservation of 50% is neither here not there. The only people this will probably affect are OBC/ SC/ ST who would have been guaranteed seats under reserved categories and will no longer get them.
    I am opposed to ghettos and to me this move promotes ghettoisation in thought. Instead of demanding assimilation and shared spaces, it pains me to see demands for separate spaces.
    And, trust Zia to describe the The National Commission for Minority Educational Institutes (the body that passed the order) as a court- now, Zia, don’t take refuge under the fact that it has the powers of a court.
    And, the verdict is being challenged in Delhi HC.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Minority-tag-for-Jamia-set-to-be-challenged/articleshow/7590966.cms

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    The National Commission for Minority Educational Institutes is by definition a civil court. In most modern legal system, any order is appeal-able.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Zia, i am not of legal background,but have to dabble a bit because of professional liabilities.
    This commission is not a court in the way we understand a highcourt, district court etc. It is more of a TRIBUNAL which has the power to issue judgement. And as you said even high court’s decision can be challenged even supreme court’s some decision can be referred to the president. Though there must be some difference , I guess there is no cross examination ,just submission ,counter submission , anybody with legal background would kindly step in please.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @shan, This commission is not a court in the way we understand a highcourt, district court etc
    – even i was confused, thought to be like election commission, tribunal, comitee, high power committee formed by govt, but zia is correct, — http://ncmei.gov.in/default.aspx
    -The Commission shall, for the purposes of discharging its functions under this Act, have all the powers of a civil court
    - Every proceeding before the Commission shall be deemed to be a judicial proceeding
    -No court (except the Supreme Court and a High Court exercising jurisdiction under Articles 226 and 227 of the Constitution) shall entertain any suit, application or other proceedings in respect of any order made by the Commission (Section 12 F).

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    There is Khalsa College in Delhi University. Must confess to knowing nothing about it. Are 50% seats reserevd for Sikhs. Is it as coveted as Hindu College, St Stephens and Sri Ram College of Commerce ?
    Does anyone know?
    Was it implicated in Khalistani trouble?

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    in reply to Gopi above, this is the link- http://twocircles.net/2011feb28/five_killed_bomb_blast_kozhikode_crime_branch_probe.html

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Balwinder-

    As I have been saying, this “god’s own land” (it was!) is becoming a “devil’s land” ; to a great extent (cannot blame them for all reasons – marxist and congress politicians also share the blame) caused by the Muslim extremism.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    JAB KHODO GE TO YEH PARIVAR HEE NIKLEEGA.sadhi ko MP kee bjp police pakad le gaee.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    I am going to say that might shock people- MUSLIMS NEED RESERVATION. Or let me improve that – some poor muslims need reservation. Let me improve that further, very poor people of all faiths, castes and regions need reservation.
    It is really sad that this self evident truth- so basic really – has not been appreciated or implemented by the people of India or the govt. But – and there is A VERY IMP BUT- it should never be more than 20%, otherwise meritocracy dies.
    What we have instead is a fat creamy layer, now in the third or fourth generation, which grabs reservation. My former SC classmate in med school, his father was IAS, his son in 2011 is also studying medicine on a reserved seat. That is a crime.
    So, education policy in India needs a common sense Jasmine revolution- down with ghettoisation in education, whether it is Islamicor SC/ST- AND PLEASE DO RESERVE 20% SEATS FOR ALL POOR, for one generation only, ie, after they have reached somewhere, then remove their crutches.

    Dr Mishra for President, I say….

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    thanks mishrajee,reservation in begining till they declare education as fundamental of every indian right like canada.admission in should be mandatory.closely monitored.because of education canada is more high tech than america.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sorry fundamental right of every indian.

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    Ask urself if tomorrow hindu say declare INdia hindu nation because hinduims is seculatrim how mahy of u clwosn will support that move.. if not then stop tryign to pass off a minority instiuttion as secular institution if it were secular there was no need for minority status

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of the word “secular”. The definition of secular is = of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations. OR Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

    Jamia Milia is obviously not secular and neither is India.

    What you wanted to say is Jamia Milia is not even a egalitarian institution, because there is no equality when it comes to choosing students.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @kUNAL , India is not an egalitarian society HINDUISM IS NOT AN EGALITARIAN RELIGION, WHICH AS A RELIGION ISLAM IS BUT MUSLIM SOCIETIES ARE FAR FROM EGALITARIAN and pakistani society is muslim by name BUT THROUGH AND THROUGH CASTE RIDDEN FROM ITS HINDU ORIGIN

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    Maybe you should read a bit more about Hinduism, if you do not consider it a egalitarian religion. Also you should read a bit more about the differences in sects and classes in Muslims.

    In Sudan, the Arab Muslims treat the black muslims as below their class.

    The castes and discrimination are two totally different things. Hinduism advocates castes, not the discrimination.

    Caste system exists in Islam as well, not just in India but in many other countries. Read about Sudan and you will know.

    ram autar Reply:

    The castes and discrimination are two totally different things. Hinduism advocates castes, not the discrimination

    kunal u are wrong i advocates botjh.

    shan Reply:

    @Kunal you have posted JOKE OF THE CENTURY, CASTE AND DISCRIMINATION ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS . here is a quote from Patrick french’s latest book on India
    Casteism, French suggests, is worse than most other prejudices: the average anti-semite will tell you why ‘they’ do so well in business, and a white supremacist lets it slip that he envies apparent black physical prowess. But prejudice against an ‘untouchable’ is built on the idea that to even share a room with one is to be physically contaminated, or turned into an insect.)

    raj Reply:

    indian secular
    - indian muslim leauge = secular
    - bjp = communal
    - hindus = don’t care about them
    - minority = to be appeased for votes.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    yeh qawwali bahut har sun chuke hain.

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    @ Gopi Thomas
    your initial post was a typical reaction of an internet hindu(sm)…blaming every actions of muslims as a manifestation of islamist fundamentalism..but when Balwinder provided the link to the reportage you changed the tune..you shifted some responsibilities to the other political parties..Nadapuram was in turmoil for many many years due to virulent political situation created by both the marxists and the muslim league/congress front..many lost lives,limbs and houses..it is a tragedy that the so called 100% literate,politically conscious god’s own people cannot find a way to stop this carnage..this particular incident was a culmination of the ***-for-tat high risk game..you know this very well but preferred to blame on muslim mentality..in fact the Muslim League in Kerala is a bulwark against the many mushrooming groups of islamic fundamentalists..One should not forgot how the leadership of Muslim League managed their partymen during the Babri Masjid crisis..not a single drop of blood was spilled..not a single stone was pelted at a temple. Gopi remove that yellow glass…..give some credit where it is due.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Mohan-

    I stated the truth. That xx Muslims were killed while the bomb they were making exploded. I did not blame Muslim League or anybody.

    And I brought this up in relation to Jamia – if Kerala can have this bomb problem without exclusivity, with mixed coleges etc . things would have been worse with segregation, exclusive Muslim colleges where Msulims interacted with only Muslims..

    I have many times stated in Zia’s blogs that there is also a Muslim on Muslim violence happening in Kerala, targeted by extremist Muslims against Muslim League who is a moderate and nationalist party.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi ,
    there are some stupids in every community.we have our share also.but why to highlight too much and expose their religion,caste and subcaste.gundaas are everywhere but 99.9999 of muslim or any other community in india is honesr and hardworking.

    [Reply]

    m.mahmood Reply:

    The restoration of the historic character of the Jamia Millia is a big boost for democracy and equality in India. Only diseased minds can claim that everything must be monopolized by the advantaged and the disadvantaged should be taken by the devil. The civilizational status of a nation must be judged by the treatment it gives to its minorities and disadvantaged groups. No doubt, Indian polity is facing so many challenges but it will never degenerate into a regime of aparheid.

    M. Mahmood
    Aligarh

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @M mahmood, Would be keenly awaiting for your views on how REST OF MUSLIM WORLD treats its minorities , with particular reference to Kashmir and pandits , and Hindus in PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH

    ram autar Reply:

    they are not perfect but good.in pakistan they are quite happy.they curse indian fascists for their problems.tharparkar is hindu majority city on indian border not far from ahmadabad ,inspite of this nobody touched them.india had600 plus communal riots i heardly anything from them.
    but behaviour with minorities should be better.kashmiri pundits were removed and taken to jammu by jagmohan,a hindu nazi tocommunalize the issue and save them from the pains of round the clock curfew.all their property and religious places are intact and protected by their kashmiri neighbours.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, protected by their kashmiri neighbours.

    — last week a missionary school whs burnt in kashmir….
    as usual, you forget muslim atrocity….. had ir benn burnt by hindus, guss the firework in psedu secular media.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, they curse indian fascists
    — muslims curse & blame everyone, other than themseleves for all problem.
    say something new.

    ram autar Reply:

    raj may be by dara singh who knows.this was hiding place of terrorist.

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims curse & blame everyone, other than themseleves for all problem.
    say something new
    we dont blame anybody.or curse others.but people like modi should be hang and organization like parivar must be banned.As per constitution of india.now 29000crores graft case is coming against nano project only. nano case is failed project.mamta was very right.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, raj may be by dara singh who knows.this was hiding place of terrorist.

    —- well said laden, now stop calling names, if you hv nothing to cut & paste

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi when napoleon conquered catholic spain he was stund to find more than 300000 persons tortured in the basements of monastaries.pastors and employees ran away.napoleon inspite of being soldier and hard man,could not see the way innocents were being totured.half were naked remaining half lost their mental balance because of hunger humaliation torture and bad sanitary conditions.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @syed, reg your link- http://www.sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm – is very misleading. One should definitely not try and claim it as a bible with which to benchmark whole countries. IQ testing is based largely on language skills (verbal reasoning) and numeric skills- therefore

    1. Stands to reason that someone educated in a private school in India or UK will score higher than someone in govt schools where the resources and motivation are limited.

    2. The Chinese figures are suspect for they often only submit results from elite academies in Shanghai and Beijing and completely hide the results of millions in the countryside.

    3. These figures would be meaningful only if there is a level playing field. ie compare Sierra Leonians with say Japanese in UK, but only if they come from the same economic background and go to the same schools.

    The Indian figure of 81- were they urban, rural, pvt schools, govt schools etc

    For example, many African countries score 65, but blacks in US score 85!!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder jee we nris are proletriat .if we will not work we will die.but ur landowner brothers back in india are not like u.action of same race/person varies with requirements of surrounding

    yes they cannot speak english like u but u cannot make banarsi saree like them.

    ram autar Reply:

    proletariat

    Vinay Reply:

    Why just NRIs, all of us who work in this capitalistic economy belong to the same class. If we don’t work, we die. Totally agree with whatever you said about skills. IQ never guarantees success in life.

    Vinay Reply:

    It was addressed to Ram Autar.

    shan Reply:

    @mohan, well done , i always had this lingering doubt , but having not ever visited god’s own country which has the highest suicide rate in the world and is the sex scandal capital of india , i swallowed whatever was offered.

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    sorry..pls read as ***-for-tat

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    1> “Debates whether university would now cease to be a secular institution”.
    Not such an alarm yet, as non-Muslim intake more or less remaining same. In future, we don’t know. Admission of student and staff lies with management.

    2>”Muslims — mostly Sunnis — make up 13.4% of India’s population, yet hold fewer than 5% of government jobs and make up just 4% of undergraduates”
    It is a backward class problem in general. Other backward classes (OBC) in Hindus make up 50% of the population, have 27% reservation seats and represent 7% of government top jobs. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/17-yrs-after-Mandal-7-OBCs-in-govt-jobs/articleshow/6465115.cms )
    No need to rake up this issue (lesser representation of Muslims in job) for getting a Minority status to an university. This move has not been done with the intention of solving that social problem nor is going to help in anyway. Beneficiary here is the management, who gets more authority over admission of students, recruitment of staff and more importantly fee structure, as government cannot regulate it anymore.
    Why bring poor Muslims for justification? Will they announce every year what percentage of poor muslim boys taken in (out of that 50% quota) and what fees were charged? It is a commercial move with a pretence of social justice. If some other caste would have done it, it would have been casteism and illegal. But minorities can do it and is legal.

    3>Quality
    Yet to be seen whether it is going to rank higher or deteriorates. Historically, Christian Institutions (and Jewish in western countries) have always outperformed the average. Muslim community has usually shown the opposite trend. They have performed better when they are outside their ghettos (Kerala example). Reasons could be general backwardness of the community. One hat does not fit all.

    4>Reservation in general.
    Cannot totally agree with Mishra. Social discrimination still prevails in rural areas. Or else, we would not have heard the extreme cases of human dignity violations just for entering a temple or drinking from a common well. Reservations are required for dalits/muslims living in rural areas and for poor in every community, urban or rural. A higher percentage is not bad, as long as it is going to the deserved. Main thing is, creamy layer has to be abolished. But politics runs with pretence.Here a dalit officer’s son gets reservation, a college/university gets a minority tag. Both claim, it is for social justice.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    vinay creamy layer is increasing.the only way is,to declare education as fundamental right of every indian.

    any help to muslims should be supported and encouraged as muslims of india are poors of poor.if 20%of ur body has cancer u cannot live longer.poors becomes vth columnist and terrorist.
    muslims are talented and intelligent.ist oscar for india was won by young ghetto dwellers dharavi.
    a college/university gets a minority tag. Both claim, it is for social justice.

    when there is competition for food between tiger and lamb.some protection has to be given to weaker.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    MR GOPI Lenin, a Jew, founded the Communist Party, to fight the then Christian rulers of Russia and impose a Jewish dictatorship.

    He and his Jewish successors killed more Christians in Russia than Hitler killing Jews in Germany. The Jews then engineered two world wars to destroy the Christian leadership of the West and create a zionist state of Israel.

    Marxism promoted Jews in the West and Brahminists in India.

    The world took a century to know the truth that communism is a Jewish conspiracy

    Lenin selected , M.N. Roy, to start the Communist Party in India and ever since then Brahminists have been controlling the marxist-maoist parties in India. The current Binayak Sen million-dollar drama is part of this conspiracy.

    Only China broke away from Jewish stranglehold because its founder, Mao, knew the truth and led the country on the right track to become the world’s No.1 power

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ram autar , dont talk porkys when begalees are around , they know a word or two about communist. i have never heard or read lenin had any jewish connection LEON TROTSKY was a jew, then these people were true communist , so they did not beleive in any religion.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    lenin mother was jew.they were godless like neocon of america with jewish blood.had an ambition to rule world and destroy christianity.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    but they are not semitic jews.they are ashknazis.they are godless pretending to be jew.word nazi is also derived from there.bolshevics did not had any russian intheir cabinet of 176.all ministers were from new york ashknazi community.that is why so brutal.

    shan Reply:

    @Ram Autar, Holy Maccaroni . We both are wrong. Lenin does have some tenous jewish connection . His mother’s father was a jew who converted to orthodox christianity(i suppose didn’t have much choice , otherwise PALES and PROGROMS), but mother’s mother has no jewish blood and Lenin’s father has no jewish blood.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan ,so lenin mother was daughter of a jew.jews used to convert to have security.marx was also jew.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan,

    if His mother’s father was a jew.
    it means mother was jew had jewish blood.qaddafi mother too was jew.he has 600 billion dollars while liyans are starving.

    shan Reply:

    @Ram autar, according to jewish tradition unless your mother is a jew ,(because that is one thing you are sure of) you will not be accepted as a jew, so lenin’s mother was not a jew.

    mohan Reply:

    @Binoy,
    Going through the many articles and readers comments on this subject in the ny times one get a feeling that many of the americans are against the move…When asked why he is targeting only muslim community King said”the radicalization attempts are directed at the muslim community…why i should investigate other communities..”
    The latest issue of “the southern poverty law center web site” list 1002 active hate groups in the US(ku klux klan,neo-nazi,white nationalist,racist skin head,christian identity and so on)
    out of the 200 plus arrests of muslims youths planning to do terrorist activities in the US ,sixty percentage was done with the help of muslim community–as per a study
    so a more appropriate move was to call a hearing on the radicalization of communities. .to single out one community will be counter productive…
    your comments please….

    shan Reply:

    @Mohan , Outstanding. exactly similar mirror I held in front of “raw sewage of hell caste” pandit mishra , when he had become mentally unstable and hallucinating with sentences like “when we were getting EXCELLENT relations between English and the immigrant community , then 26/7 happens in london.
    This is the delusion Indians (sikhs as well) suffer from , to whites we are all pakis.
    Though incredibly there is about 300000,(0.6%) population sikhs , 500000HINDUS of which 90% came or were forced by UK govt to accept , because they held british passports in uganda .
    So from mainland India hardly 50000.
    Same with USA , as much we are fed this notion of freedom and emancipation , MY FEELING IS USA as a country is far more RACIST than UK.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mr mohan community is not radicalized.these are revenge attacks for their black deeds in iraq and afghanistan.
    they are taught a good lesson.in case of libya they silent.wars swallowed its perpetuator.it is american who troops were led by fake pastors who had guns not bible in their hands.in india dayanand pandey was prepared to play same role.but arrested.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    My educated guess is that the majority favors this hearing.

    King’s justification is that although there are many hate groups, they are localized and not a part of a national or international “fraternity”, unlike Muslims. He has stated that majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens/immigrants; but there are a lot swayed by Al Awlicki etc who create damage and carnage to Amrerica (and the wrold)..

    Again, none of these would have happened, if Muslims did not engage in terrorism.

    There was this well-spoken Muslim lady on TV yesterday (Nomi????), a journalist, I believe she was with Daniel Pearl in Pakistan, who said that she and her parents are ostracized from her community because she has been against the Saudi arbian funded Koran translations, where that particular version explicitly states not to mingle with jews and christians, explicitly states they are lesser human beings etc. So, this is a hearing on those types of isses also–problems faced by moderate Muslims from their community

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    benoy,

    all muslims are moderate.this is upto u which version u accept.saudi rulers are ex-jew have jewish blood,all these things are expecte from them.
    in the begining of islam muslims were at war with jews and christians then ,this advise came.it is not applicable in normal circumstances.

    Vinay Reply:

    New stock from Dalit Voice, is it? Why can’t you give the credits to author of the article V. T Rajshekar (or late B.N. Pande) in each of your copy-paste item? People unnecessarily believe these theories are generated by muslims and give undue credits to them. They need to know the real people to “praise”.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    this is truth

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i modify vtr.the above is very important col.purohit has his office in isreal.what purohit was doing in india raymond davis was doing in pakistan.dividing people destroying countries after countries to control resources of the world.since his arrest no.of bomb blasts has reduced alot.they are killing innocents for their geo-political gains.people should know their true face.

    achchi baat kaheen se aye seekho au sikhao.

    [Reply]

  • abhi

    It is time for all the communities in India (Brahmins who make up certainly less than 10% of the population, Banias, Jats, Chamars, Bhangis, Bishnois, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, Sunnis, Shias, Ismailis, and so on) to declare themselves as minorities and demand their “minority” rights. This way, they can take control of their religious, educational, and financial institutions. Governments should not be in the business of business anyway.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    I posted these lines yesterday, for details see my comment above- ‘…I am going to say something that might shock people- MUSLIMS NEED RESERVATION. Let me improve that, poor people of all faiths….need reservation.
    ….. BUT- it should never be more than 20%, otherwise meritocracy dies. What we have instead is a fat creamy layer, now in the third or fourth generation, which grabs reservation….’
    ————
    No hindu or sikh supported me. Was it such a bad idea? DR MISHRA, UK and India

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    all other poors have reservation one way or other.rich has reservation through donation.muslims are in icu.their percentage of education is less than even bhangees.as they have no hope of getting job.
    your first statement was also correct.no need to increase quota.muslim is not race.a backward whether he read quoran or geeta should be considered backward and includede in backward quota.

    No hindu or sikh supported me. Was it such a bad idea? DR MISHRA, UK and India

    we dont want to increase the cake.we want to grab it.only right way is to lauch a movement through this forum,dont forget india is nation of competing nationalities.we cannot progress till nationalism overtake individual parochialism.speak what u feel is right.when u go to operation theatre u do what is right not what others think of ur action.
    TO MAKE EDUCATION AS FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN CITIZEN.
    MISHRAJEE TILL UR SOUL IS INDIAN U ARE INDIAN ONLY.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @syed, there was an interesting discussion in newsnight on bbc2(you may well be able to see in India , for bbc does transmit few programmes)
    I learnt fron the historian Niall ferguson (whose personal opinion I do not attach weight) , but the fact THAT THE MULLAHS IN OTTOMAN COURT RESISTED THE PRINTING PRESS FOR TWO HUNDREED YEARS AFTER ITS INTRODUCTION/INVENTION IN GOTHENBURG.
    Does explain a fair bit about islamic world doesn’t it. same happened with Hindus , and the ONLY theatre was CALCUTTA where the future destiny of hindus were charted in eighteenth and early nineteenth century. Remember the HINDU DICTUM OF NOT CROSSING THE SEAS (KALA PANI) and not to mix with non hindus or whites(MLECHAS)
    RAJA RAM MOHAN ROY did both with impunity , INFACT WENT TO UK , the passage beng paid by the last mughal bahadur shah jafar to plead his case for more money with the king of england.
    And young bengal took it one step further BY BURNING THE HOLY THREAD AND EATING BEEF,this again explains why INDIA IS DEMOCRACY SURROUNDED BY ALL ISLAMIC THEOCRACIES.Your thought will be appreciated.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    INDIA IS DEMOCRACY SURROUNDED BY ALL ISLAMIC THEOCRACIES.Your thought will be appreciated.

    which one shan.and what is connection between indian democracy and muslim theocracy.saddam dictatorship was better than wmerican democracy which is nothing but mobocracy.

    democracy as an institution is also failing like communism.soon people will realise that raja praja system was better and more humane.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    A good news in today’s NY Times about the Indian scientist Rangarajan parthasarathy,s work that will revolutionize computing!

    Thank http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/science/01compute.htmlyou Rangarajan..Congratulations!

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/science/01compute.html

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    Another Indian IIT graduate, developing patents for a US company. I celebrate his success and his contributions to humanity, but there should be some definitive work done towards India as well.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Kunal for that to happen INDIANS NEED TO CHANGE THEIR MINDSET , LESS HINDU, ie, MORE PROTESTANT ETHICS, so less petty NON FEUDAL LICK MY BOOT ATTITUDE, more like “the calling” as if predestined to contribute and change the world for good, like BILL GATES or STEVE JOBS or the recently deceased FRED OLSEN.
    IT IS THE CULTURE unlikely to be found in Ratan Tata who kills bone poor farmers to open factory then addresses ina five star hotel of being good corporate citizens.
    THAT IS WHY THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INDIAN BRAND IN GLOBAL TOP HUNDREED.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan

    Many Indian companies are respected in US (And in Europe in general) whether they are top brands or not. Tata, Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant, Bharat forge, Mahindra etc are well-respected.

    Ratan Tata is a great individual; the situation about land etc has always two sides. Tata Holdings makes money to give it away in charity – that is the byelaws of Tata Holdings. He lives in a simple apartment; answers the door bell himself (it is true). (he does not have children, so he does not have to accumulate for anybody) (living in an apartment does not make a man great either).

    Tata Holdings, the parent company, is a non-profit organization.

    Many jewels of India, including IISc , TIFR/Bhaba center etc are there because of Tatas. A great example of a tortured and persecuted people finding acceptance and recognition in their adopted country.

    Tata executives, in their management development classes, are taught that they ahve to make money for the company so the money can be given away for social purposes

  • syed

    @shan,
    “THAT THE MULLAHS IN OTTOMAN COURT RESISTED THE PRINTING PRESS FOR TWO HUNDREED YEARS AFTER ITS INTRODUCTION/INVENTION IN GOTHENBURG.”

    I would like to bring in a different view…
    The extent a person is religious or otherwise has an inverse relationship with his IQ. The higher the IQ the less the religiosity (barring exceptions). Check this link.

    http://www.sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm
    http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

    Arabs generally speaking have a lower IQ vis a vis japanese/chinese/caucasians. So is it not logical that they have got out of the clutches of religion earlier?

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Reliability of IQ data itself is dubious. IQ tests, along with analytical and numerical skills also count on verbal and fluency abilities. In Asian Culture, lot of time emotions/expressions take over language, reducing the importance of verbal and fluency skills.
    (Here, one doesn’t know how to express the death of near ones in words. There, they can’t cry like us). In west, a 5 year old kid was explaining to me how to hit a marble. “Make a circle using your thumb and forefinger. Press the forefinger against the thumb and release…”. If someone had asked me, I would not have been able to explain it, using any language I know. I would have just shown the action and would have said, “Do it like this”. Fluency of language is is not needed in our culture. IQ data does not take cultures into account. Instead, they try to explain the IQ difference between European and Asian (who seems to have descended from the same ancestors in central Asia), by reasoning the cold, harsh living conditions in Europe which favoured smart to survive.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    why u blame mullah.this was duty of state.

    mullah did not hang galieleo in rome.
    mullah did not used indian mathematics or forced our mathmeticians to make to create JANAMKUNDALEES.since then mathmetics finished from our subcontinnent.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @shan,
    Amongst muslim nations, malaysia & turkey have the highest IQ. Is it a coincidence they are amongst the least islamised countries?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Syed,
    I know nothing of Turkey but I think on Malaysia you are using dubious stats.
    See, the IQ levels of an average Malaysian will be across 58% Bhumiputras (Muslims), and the rest Chinese and Indians. The IQ levels may well be bumped up by the non-Bhumiputras.
    Unless you have racially profiled IQ data for Malaysia, I would keep Malaysia out of this.
    BTW, among the 58% of Bhumiputras, at least 10-15% acquired the tag in this generation induced by government subsidies and positive discrimination policies favouring Bhumiputras.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan indian muslims has highest iq provided given opportunity.irfan /yusuf pathan munaf patel are comoing from poorest of poor families.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    A lot are interrelated – literature, arts, individual achievements, buisness formation (instead of trade), systems of government etc. Muslims, to a great extent, bar Turkey,Iindonesia. has been victims of Islam itself. Or the Islam after doors to Ijtehad were shut in 1300s.
    A few years ago, the economists Luigi Guiso, Paola Sapineza, and Luigi Zinglaes studied the attitude of Muslims toward work and enterprise based on data from World Values Survey, a multinational set of surveys that covers sixty six countries. In a study that appeared in the Journal of Monetary Economics, they noted that ‘on average, Christian religions are more positively associated with attitudes that are conducive to ecoinomic growth, while ISlam is negaticvely associated. In comparison with Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, and Jews, Muslims were generally less disposed to agree with pro-market statements, sucha s “Competition is good” “private ownership of business and industry should be increased”

    Many Islamic societies were slow to develop banks, commercial courts, joint-stock companies, and other business organizations. In a new book,”The Long divergence: How Islamic Law held Back the Middle East”, written by Timur Kuran, a Turkish Muslim, he blames social customs and religious rules dating back to the earliest days of Islam. He says lending/interest is not an issue, because Muslims did find a way around it. He focused on laws covering business partnerships and inheritance practices. These , he says, discouraged the emergence of modern industrial corporations, forestalling the Islamic equivalent of general electric, GM, IBM etc.

    Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia have taken deliberate actions on business formations, economic expansion, inclusive development etc. Indonesia and Malaysia were overwhelmingly rural and poverty-stricken just a generation ago. Now, they are industrialized middle income countries, with universal education systems and long life expectancies. Suharto and Muhatir followed the “Asian Tiger” model o0f government-led economic development and transformed their countries. Ever since Mustafa kamal Pasha established Turkey, abolished the caliphate, and imposed strict church-state divide, the government in Ankara has made economic expansion its main goal. Turkey today is the world’s second largest exporter of cement, and third largest exporter of glassware.

    What we see today in middle east is the collapse of governments and autocrats who did not take a turkey/Indonesia/Malaysia route. A region held back by religion is at cross roads with demographics. Too many young men and women and nowhere to go. Demography is indirectly taking revenge on religion.

    Close to home, Bangla Desh, eventually may be a mini Indonesia/Malaysia (if military does not take over again). They do not seem to be in a religious bind unlike the neighbour on the west; focusing on things they can do to improve education, commerce. Bangla Desh is now the fourth largest exporter of clothing to United Sattes.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Gopi-

    Well, to your reference to the western neighbour…

    The extremists shot and killed Bhatti, the only christian Minister in the cabinet.

    It happened in broad day light; three “alla hu Akbar” guys came from nowhere and started shooting – all because Bhatti was Christian.

    Wahabism rules there. Many on this blog, including you and Syed, have touched on the creeping Wahabism and Saudi funding here; I hope Zia investigates and writes on Wahabism next.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    may be he was as fool as governor of punjab.dont jump in oil when it is boiling.keep quite till america leave.this rule has no support among common sunni muslim .because of american and supported by americans they become powerful.read raymond davis.i still dont believe that he is killed by wahabis.there are many people who want to ignite sectarian voilence .wahabism was created during period of lawerence of arabia.spreaded
    saud family who have jewish blood and brought to throwm by zoinist roosevelt.
    but every community has some people like them.

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi all ur venomous stupidities showing muslims in bad light is non-sense.today an arabic company is builting tallest tower of bombay.even iran is much ahead of many non muslim countries including india in technology.60%of their of university students are girls and they are writing papers and article equivalent american university students.they have manufactured drone recently shot down 2 american drones have made super missiles.
    from indonesia to turkey to khartoum all muslim countries are managed.yes son of sheikh will not be so serious in education like the son of proletariat.

    sikhs and hindus who are boasting here ,are landless like the jews of past .they have to work hard for survival.local are always lazy whether the local of america europe dubai or assam./punja.
    among muslims also those who have no land work hard for their survival.

    WE MAKE EVERY GOOD THING IN INDIA .U HAVE PRODUCED NOTHING OBEDIENT SLAVE OF INTERNATIONAL CPITALISM.
    I AM FROM UP EVERYCITY MAKES SOMETHING WHICH NOBODY CAN MAKE IN THE WORLD,THE MAKERS ARE MUSLIMS.

    U CREATE office clerks and obedient slaves of international capilatalist market..bollywood to cricket to every place where competition is open we are more than our percentage

    TURKEY WAS SUPER POWER 14TH CENTURY.ATATURK CAME IN 20 TH CENTURY.
    NOW HIS DAYS HAS GONE .PEOPLE OF TURKEY HAS SEEN HOW MUCH RACIALIST NARROW AND PAROCHIAL THE WEST IS.

    game which we see in middle east is directed by oil firms.every country has opposition.they have simply armed them and provided media.this is their bad luck.they will also see the end.

    wahabi saudi arabia is better than democratic iraq.where one is on neck of other.

    SAY CLEARLY AND ,LOUDLY

    ANGREZI HAI JAHAN
    GHAREEBE HAI WAHAN.

    WHEN BRITISHERS CAME OUR GDP WAS 25%OF WORLD LITERACY 93%
    WHEN THEY LEFT OUR GDP REDUCED TO 1.5%AND LITERACY 8%

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    has been victims of Islam itself. Or the Islam after doors to Ijtehad were shut in 1300s.

    gopi tell me where.pope was forced to go vatican (whose land land was taken by church through fraudulent means)because they were interferring and controlling every act of state.

    mullahs never interferred in day to day acts of state.they were only moral guardians of state.
    in spain ,turkey or in india.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    malaysian people are practising muslims far more than indians.indonesia which has trillion dollar economy is same.they marry only after performing haj.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    That may be so, but I just checked my link .. IQ of Thailand (91) and Indonesia(89) which are pretty much the same race and is on par with Malaysia. IQ of malaysians may be pulled up a little by the chinese (100) and pulled down by Indians (81) to make it 91.

    Anyway, this is just a POV. Of course other factors also have a lot of weight!

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Intelligence, IQ, success in exams- MY OBSERVATIONS-

    1. A lot is inherited- parents doctors or barristers, kids gen bright.
    2. Related to 1 above, access to good quality schools
    3. Family environment, eg here in UK- Indians motivate their kids and are tough on discipline. Certain cultures here have sky high single parent families (blacks) or religious/ cultural issues (Pak- Bangladeshis)
    4. Nutrition- a child in a slum in Brazil or Dharavi is not only stunted in growth but also in mental dev. This factor does not apply in west where THAT level of poverty and hunger is all but abolished.
    5. Self belief or belief emanating from roots- eg Yanks, Jews, Europeans and Indians think very highly of themselves with plenty of role models, current and historic to choose from.

    eg- I always let my children know of the following when they were growing up- the grandeur of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the spirtuality of Guru Nanak, the literature of Kalidasa, the astronomy of Aryabhatta, the medicine and surgery of Charak and Sushrut etc.
    Not sure if my son remembers much of that now for he is forever in the pub now, hehe

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Plonker , sandhu before commenting on UK remember there are folks who live in UK and know a word or two about uk. DIET IS A MASSIVE FACTOR IMPLICATED AS A CAUSE FOR THE NORTH SOUTH DIVIDE IN UK. that poor diet is also a reflection of socio economic status. In Newcastle they have lots of red meat , saturated fats AND NO VEGETABLES. Trials are going on to add fish oils as supplements to improve the IQ of geordies.it is no surprise Japanese have high IQ given they will use HARPOON to kill WHALES and probably consumes three fourth of total tuna caught in high seas.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    i knew I would get into a hornets nest with this IQ thing. .. these tests are controversial no doubt. Like I said earlier..just wanted to introduce a new POV.

    I feel these tests do have a certain weightage ..but of course many many other factors are also imp.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    No, syed bhai, it is important to bring these figures into the open and discuss them. A figure of IQ 8O for India and 100 for US, begs the obvious question- who did you test in India.
    It is like saying, GDP of India is $ 1000 and US is $ 40,000. Absolutely true these figures, and from these figures flow extreme disparities in healthcare in India, with varying maternal mortality rates and infant mortality rates.
    Similarly educational resources, performance and confidence varies widely in India. I had published these figures last month in another blog-high school results in UK by race and nationality
    Education- Indian pupils have best GCSE results- http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=268
    Indian boys 54%, White boys 45 %, Black boys 31%, Pak/Bangladeshi boys 22%
    ———————————————————————————————
    So, dont worry too much about Indians pulling down Malaysian IQ average lol !!!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Another bull shit sloka by panditji . Indian children getting good grade in GCSE is one thing , because it is a tiny sample of the entire population of indians as a whole,.also Indians make only 1.1% of the population.
    ONE IS TALKING ABOUT ENTIRE POPULATION OF INDIA REFLECTED BY SAMPLE SURVEY.Also if SYED has UNCOVERED some DELUSION busting fact, PUNCTURING the boast of FLAG WAVERS
    so be it. This is typical Indian or more specifically the response you expect from a “raw sewage of hell” caste.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    sorry, above post IQ for India quoted as 80

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    The 34-year old MF institution of Yunus called Grameen Bank is facing govt. inquiry. Norway which gave him the Nobel Peace Prize itself charged him with fraud, according to the International Herald Tribune.

    But the Indian versions of Mohammed Yunus like Akula are still roaming around because the frauds are ruling India.

    A book in English written by Akula is being sold like hot cakes in Indian airports

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    I thought akula was recently on headlines because of some investigation against him .
    AND HOW ABOUT TWO US ARMY SERVICE MEN SHOT BY A BOSNIAN MUSLIM IN FRANKFURT YESTERDAY,
    This is the same Bosnia who were slaughtered by serbians and RAPED en masse , AND WHO SAVED THEM . This is gaddari of the vilest kind.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    dont forget they have killed i million iraqis,.afghanistan yet to be finished.he is only a suspect
    a suspect.99%of them dont get convicted.he is muslim wrong place at wrong time.americans are targeted everywhere even inside america by americans.neocons saved muslims of balkans,yes,but muslims of same areas saved them employed them for centuries.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    BOSNIAN MUSLIM

    he is from kosovo

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    SHAN, I had already warned you to debate or converse politely without using words like plonker, in the last post. I remember Ravi, Dr Mishra, Riswan, Binoy Hegde and other warning you of the same. Once again your utterances leave me in serious doubt about whether you are a doctor.

    I said- “”"”Nutrition- a child in a slum in Brazil or Dharavi is not only stunted in growth but also in mental dev. This factor does not apply in west where THAT level of poverty and hunger is all but abolished.”"” You tried to attack me and gave some nonsense about dietary habits in north UK.
    ARE U SAYING THAT NEWCASTLE HAS THE SAME LEVEL OF MALNUTRITION AS A SLUM IN INDIA?
    Once again, make yr points politely and relevantly

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @sandhu , malnutrition is some pockets is worse than Dharavi, social security money goes in booze , smoke(for each packet you fork out 4 pounds, thanks to 80%tax) and buying lottery tickets , and bingo(gambling) so whatever is left you buy cheapest food which hardly provide nutrition. there was a case in sheffield where the family fed the three month old baby adult ready made sachet soup. The child died of sodium intoxication, the parent said they were saving money( because baby branded powdered milk costs a fair amount) to pay for the heating bill which is considerable up north., ALSO AS MUCH LACK OF FOOD IS DETRIMENTAL TO GROWTH , MORBID OBESITY (which is assuming epidemic proportion in UK) is probably poses even greater risk to health
    I recently saw a patient wheeled into my clinic , looked like TWO PILLOWS on both sides on which she is resting her thighs. No she was not paralysed , and they were not pillows , it is all as a result of MORBID OBESITY , she cannot walk

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    DR SHAN, I dont think you got my message. Once again I find that the blog page is filling up with your name calling (plonker) and comments like -”"”the response you expect from a “raw sewage of hell” caste”"”
    . The prev ‘Pharaoh..) blog with Zia ground to a halt because everyone was disgusted with your shallow ranting and people had started to insult and scold you.
    I had wondered whether you were a doctor on SCST quota while others like Ravi, Riswan etc had actually concluded that you were some sort of cleaner in UK MASQUERADING AS A DOCTOR.
    There is something seriously wrong with your breeding, manners and class. Try and improve your manner of debating.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan tum sardarjee se panga mat liya karo.yeh naraz ho gaye to tere area kee saree kudiyna chukk lenge.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    ‘TEJENDER , hamare area key saree kudhniya inhi kay biradri kay hain , aur yeh kudiyan sirf ek cheez jantey hain PAISA PAISA PAISA

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Sandhu aka bhondhu , it must be some cleaner who can clean the c r a p that you post by point by point rebuttal and who quotes from biography of marlowe and who diagnoses ashish’s insomnia and offers advice which ashish wholeheartedly accepts.My advice to you WHEN YOU CAN’T BEAT HIM , JOIN HIM

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    Another point of view. Emotional intelligence may be a better tool than IQ to measure success of a community. Muslim community seems to have less EQ in the areas of stress management (impulse control), adaptability (reality testing and flexibility) and general mood scale (optimism). IQ is decided by hereditary factors and diet. But religion can influence EQ.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    this depends which community they converted.dont generalize.some of the muslims came from outside like brhmns ,they are very intelligent .converted from lower castes have their own problems of health shock of thousands of years of high hindu exploitation.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This made my day…
    http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/mar/030311-news-delhi-Arundhati-Roy-artist-paints-nude-painting-with-Osama.htm

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev , while I fully endorse the sentiment , must say I am not impressed by the product or its impact.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    mentally the paniter is as stupid as rajeev.

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    ..a comment by an incredulously tiny mind……..

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @tajender , mentally the paniter is as stupid as rajeev

    — so what is art for you… can define it ? this is called freedom, same freedom as given to m.f. hussain. you either like or not, but cannot call others stupid.

    – somebody name called shan & he blew his cool, then we had complaining from ravi, like a shcool boy, whose acc was kicked for spitting on wrong guy. then it became he started it first.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Just got back from Bhiwadi, looked forward to reading the comments again, and what do I find- SHAN- SHAN- SHAN, at it again. His comments are shallow but what really sticks in the craw is his REPULSIVE SOCIAL SKILLS.
    Once again his name calling, the cheap comments have started. I am too tired to cut and paste the numerous times that Ravi and others had exposed his culture and credibility as belonging to the gutter.
    SHAN, DO YOU NEVER LEARN. Call yourself a doctor?? You ridiculous toilet cleaner at Heathrow, pretending to be a doctor. If you cannot talk sensibly and non abusively on this forum, the maybe we should all say this again-
    DR SHAN , YOU ARE A BAR STEWARD. p iss off, you drive the nice people away from here

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    rizwan F off to talaq your fourth wife so that you can marry a thirteen year old virgin , or take that route whereby you are promised 72 HOURIS in heaven .
    You low caste convert have fixed your gaze in cess pit , that’s why when i quote Marlowe, s biography it eludes your attention , just like i asked you to type YOUNG BENGAL in WIKIPEDIA , you were completely oblivious to it . PERHAPS SYED IS RIGHT ABOUT IQ AND RELIGOSITY and we can see that clearly manifest in you. GO BACK TO BHIWADI and keep yourself away from these forums , SOME SERIOUS INTELLECTUAL DISCOURSE TAKES PLACE HERE

    AND IT IS NOT BLIND SUBMISSION , THEREFORE ANY BULL SHIT WILL BE SEVERLY CONTESTED

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan bigamy is more rampant among hindus than muslims.dont use propaganda material.talkshould be on facts.galee hum logo kee maadree jaban hai.but i will not use this.lower middle class use this language in my area.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ tajender , bigamy is more rampant among hindus than muslims
    — something interesting, polygamy By country, — muslim countries allow polygamy for muslims only
    Australia: lllegal under the Marriage Act 1961, sect 94. Maximum penalty 5 years imprisonment.
    Canada: Illegal under the Criminal Code of Canada, sect 293.[6]
    China, People’s Republic of: Illegal (but tolerated for some minorities, such as Tibetans, in some rural areas in the South West) .
    Egypt: Permitted for Muslims (up to four wives).
    Eritrea: Legal in areas under Sharia only (up to four wives).
    All the 27 countries of the European Union (see special note for the United Kingdom): Illegal.
    Iceland: Illegal according to the Icelandic Act on Marriage No. 31/1993, Art. 11.[7]
    Israel: Illegal according to the Penal Code of Israel.
    Iran: Legal with written consent from the first wife (up to four wives).
    India: Illegal for Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhist, and Jain followers. Allowed for Muslims, provided the husband takes written permission from his previous wives. This permission is documented at the time of the Nikah and forms part of the Nikah-nama (agreement of Nikah). Currently however, the government is debating whether to remove the requirement to obtain permission from the previous wives.
    Libya: Legal with written consent from the first wife (up to four wives). (See Polygamy in Libya.)
    Malaysia: Permitted for Muslims; required to obtain judicial consent, show financial capability, and several strict conditions. Some variation in law between states (family law relating to non-Muslims is under federal jurisdiction).[8]
    Morocco: Permitted for Muslims, restrictions apply.
    Pakistan: Illegal for non-Muslims. Allowed for Muslims, provided the husband takes written permission from his previous wives. This permission is documented at the time of the Nikah and forms part of the Nikah-nama (agreement of Nikah).
    South Africa: Legalised for indigenous, black traditionalists by the Customary Marriages Act 120 of 1998.
    Tunisia: Illegal.
    Turkey: Illegal.
    United Kingdom: Illegal if the marriage took place in the UK, but recognized (for some private purposes;[clarification needed] but not for e.g. pension, immigration or citizenship rights) if it took place in another country where the law allows it if the parties were domiciled in that country.[9]
    United States: Illegal in all 50 states (but see Polygamy in the United States)
    In the United States, the Model Penal Code (section 230.1) defines bigamy as a misdemeanor and polygamy as a felony. Having more than one spouse at the same time gets classified as polygamy, and bumped to a felony, if it is done “in purported exercise of a plural marriage…” According to Joel Feinberg in Moral Limits of the Criminal Law: “Righteously, flaunting one’s illicit relationships, according to the Code, is apparently a morally aggravating circumstance, more punishable than its clandestine and deceptive counterpart.”[10]
    Uzbekistan: Illegal.

    ram autar Reply:

    raj,

    tajender , bigamy is more rampant among hindus than muslims

    i am taking of goverment survey report.polygamy is our culture.monogamy is the result of one hundred years christian rule on us.
    adultry is punishable by death.europeans keep girl friends,keeps and hidden wives.the entire nations are full of brothels.like india.

  • Rizwan

    this is DR SHAN, his post from last month. If he disagrees with Ravi, he calls him circumcised-
    shan Reply:
    February 9th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
    @ravi circumcised , it is Bose , basu , not Boshu if you are writing in English, then again it is too much to expect from an airhead like you….. As to NHS employing me to the extent i can afford BMW 330, says a fair bit about the demand for my professional expertise. I not only do varicose vein ,but colectomies….
    ………………………………………
    Cheap boasting as above- bmw, cholectomies etc, name calling- Ravi circumcised- is this man sick or what. Islamophobic bar steward- keeps coming back for insults.
    Would any doctor behave so ???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rizwan and others.

    I note that once again the topic has moved on to SHAN and his predilection to personal abuse.

    He has been abusing me from the very first day I started contributing to this blog. A large sample of what he has said is re-posted here.

    ________________________________________
    1. November 16th, 2010 at 2:55 pm ….@ravi circumcised, wife beater,

    2. November 8th, 2010 at 8:51 pm…@Ravi, are you sure about your birth certificate , not a forgery which turned Dera adam khan to dehra. and weall know where dera adam khan is.

    3. November 8th, 2010 at 8:18 pm…@jindal, I read the posting to you by ravi, I cannot help agreeing with him . A lady came to casualty , apparently beaten and black and blue , because as she was having a headache , she refused sex. but her husband , his name surprise surprise Ravi,

    4. November 9th, 2010 at 3:29 am…@Ravi, the NOT is missing because your foreskin is missing

    5. November 9, 2010 at 2:28 am…@Ashish and his homoerotic soul mate Ravi….

    6. November 9th, 2010 at 10:38 pm…@Binoy,well this ravi and haram autar may be the same person , or perhaps ISI at work .

    7. November 11th, 2010 at 12:42 am…like the Ravi pakistani, Ashish kamchor , faltu hindustani.

    8. November 11th, 2010 at 3:39 pm…Classical response of a ISI man.

    9. November 12th, 2010 at 3:27 pm…@…..unless you are also a pakistani like Ravi.

    10. November 13th, 2010 at 3:31 pm…@Ravi is it really,

    11. November 7th, 2010 at 3:33 pm…@Ravi, the mole of a particular country ,

    12. November 5th, 2010 at 5:55 pm…@Ravi , the difference is between you and me , one rationalist , the other a closet jihadi, if not jihadi then definitely beleives islam is the greatest and innutable , or shall we say just THE beleiver.

    13. November 5th, 2010 at 6:12 pm…@Ravi (most definitely circumcised for religious reason)

    14. December 5th, 2010 at 12:04 am…@Ravi, you ignorant moron you reveal your birth religion that is a congregational religion and that is Islam.

    15. December 4th, 2010 at 11:52 pm…@ravi, the dole cheat from the council estates of toxeth

    16. December 5th, 2010 at 2:33 am…@ravi, the genital warts,

    17. November 29th, 2010 at 8:30 pm…@ravi, the internet ISI..

    18. November 30th, 2010 at 12:45 am…@Ravi , the purest beleiver in five pillars

    19. November 29th, 2010 at 1:30 am…@Ravi circumcised

    20. November 30th, 2010 at 5:38 pm…@Ravithe greatest admirer of hadith.,

    21. December 2nd, 2010 at 6:37 pm…@Ravi, the ISI agent

    22. December 5th, 2010 at 10:31 pm…@Kunal, it is time beneath the stairs , blindfolded pakistani ravi came out of the closet and declare himself a pakistani.

    23. December 6th, 2010 at 9:44 pm…@rajeev, wellcome back, i have been at my wits end to derobe this soft jehadi RAVI, now he has a soul mate in Ashish

    24. December 8th, 2010 at 9:12 pm…@Ravi Pakistani, from a rational humanist

    25. December 8th, 2010 at 11:18 pm…@Ravi pakistani from shan Hindustani

    26. December 8th, 2010 at 9:08 pm…@raju kurien, you didn’t ……….Similarly this circumcised ravi says I hate paedophiles yet his his room is stacked with child porn. He doesn’t like foul language yet describes the expletives with candour, this is taquiya in full swing.
    [Reply]

    ______________________________________________________________

    There have been many instances when I have retaliated, to these unwarranted insults by giving him a taste of his own medicine.

    Here is an example:

    Ravi Reply:
    November 30th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    SHAN

    I will deal with your input, because it givse me the greatest opportunity to debunk your type of ISLAMOPHOBIC flawed thinking.

    1. The personal attack – So here is the retaliation – You are a LUN GOAT WEARING SAFFRON FUNDO WHO ACTUALLY BELIVES THAT HINDUISM IS GOOD RELIGION. Well it is not. You are one sad deluded individual. My advice is desist from personal attacks or as I promised I will retaliate.

    2. So you think the US policy of weaning moderate (read paid for Taliban) back into civil fold is wrong because one Afghan Taxi Drivers sent money back home for Jihad.

    You are utterly mad and totally deluded for thinking that policy makers can make such policies based on single incidents.

    You are half trained butcher, who should give all up and take PHUKING SANYAS in some far off pahar.

    So stop attacking me, for I will be back and what I say will not be pleasant.

    ________________________________________________________________

    Shan is completely irrational, and inhuman, though he likes to think that he is a rational human being. The plain fact is that he is racist, islamophobe, and a congenitally deranged individual.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Syed, l mirza, ashish, binoy, vinay, gopi, Raju, Raj, Rajeev(the ones I consider worth addressing, rest are internet urchins.
    guys , I think this IQ business is a red herring. if you analyse history civilizations have sprung up and then lost in oblivion.take Greece, Romans , Islam , hindu , and also Maya , Khmer , and last but not the least THE MIDDLE KINGDOM . Its like EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY. You guys will be stunned to read this , apparently in 1960’s the intellectuals in Britain had worked out that britain is on a slippery path of steep decline .the word decline causes same allergic reaction to English , as the word poverty does to indians .They felt it was just a matter of managing decline. With islam I have thought a lot. there are several reasons for the state that they are in . ONE JUST CANNOT IGNORE THE GRANDUER OF ISLAM. You need to see the architecture of SINAN in Istabul or that scientist about whom i came to know recently while readind a popular science book on the duality of wave particle behaviour of light which is not settled yet .apparently Al haytham was first to suggest that we view things because light reflected on objects penetrate the eyes.before this greeks and romans taught the IMAGE is transmitted intact to the eyes.
    Now the problem with islam is THAT IT WANTS TO PLAY FOOTBALL WITH THE GAME RULES OF 12TH CENTURY. sadly it doesn’t work that way.modern civilizations are all based on SHUNTING RELIGION all together FROM ANY INTELLECTUALDISCOURSE, ITS PLACE HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY SCIENCE. apparently Prof niall fergusson made reference to HOW BANKING AND FINANCE never took off in Islamic world because of religious strictures.
    ALSO THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO DO ANYTHING , there is so much oil ,I HAVE HEARD MYSELF a libyan doctor telling me they beleive if they remain true to quoran Allah will give them more oil.
    ALSO THIS OIL HAS DRAWN UNWELCOME ATTENTION LIKE A PRETTY GIRL ATTRACTS ATTENTION OF MAWALIS(read oil hungry west)
    but the single most important factor may be that there is no incentive for introspection AND THERE IS ONLY ONE POINT OF VIEW THAT IS SEX STRAVED MULLAHS MISOGYNIST BIGOTTED WORLD VIEW. NO COUNTER VIEW IS ALLOWED. This freedom to criticise religion existed in england circa 1600.
    lastly I think to paraphrase my favourite black director ANY COUNTRY CAN PROSPER so long they “Do the right thing”(one of the best film of Spike Lee)

    [Reply]

    ramautar Reply:

    behaviour of light which is not settled yet .apparently Al haytham was first to suggest that we view things because light reflected on objects penetrate the eyes.before this greeks and romans taught the IMAGE is transmitted intact to the eyes

    shan i suggest u go on reading about muslim scientists and muslim civilization u will come to know why muslims are still attached to their past.

    personally u are hypocrate and liar.some body with double standards and dual personality.

    when i wtote ,why hnidus behave like brainless moths,u start jumping like hungry kittens.and u are teaching us and telling that u are modern.
    all ur points are nothing but bullshit.as it is fashion to condemn mullah.what mullah has done whatever is done ,is done by state.mullah is most progressive force.u have killed billions of woman in prathas like sati naree..today u are killeng same weak creature in name of DAHEJ.
    u are teaching us how to behave with women.
    we play foot ball with 12th century rule ,that is why qatar(a village)football team is asia champion.

    problem with u people is u are ignorant about islam and muslim contribution to development of humanity .u are alsao brainwashed through british zoinist media.ur bengalee society is goverened by brhmnsts ,who change their colour with time.only aim is to remain at the top of pyramid.as per supreme court ,hinduism is not a religion.it is samaj. islamic thoughts were the base of rennainace in europe.as per prince charles church should accept that islamic civilization is base of our civilization.

    ur comment on muslim participation in jewish banking system.all revieled religions prohibit this,being inhuman.we have started Interest free banking syatem.this has become very popular.

    turmiol in middle east is because of this.all human suffering are because of this rubbish banking system.which cheat and rob the customer.to increase profit ignite wars and voilence everywhere in the world.intellectual corruption is base of all corrutions.
    col.purohit had his head office in israel and raymond davis was doing same in pakistan.before that europe was target of their evil activities.europeans threw this problem to middle east,for asians to have the same pain.yunus is an example,

    Bangladeshi Muslim Yunus was discovered by the American Jews and groomed to sabotage and destroy the already poor Muslim country. He was given all-out support and made world famous by awarding the Nobel Peace Prize — just as they did to a Chinese criminal now in jail.islamic banking is reverse of this.

    with time u will be alright.now u are immature.with very superficial knowledge.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ram autar, when patrick french was asked what he finds so great about India that we indians fail to see. He posed the question WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO LIVE REST OF YOUR LIFE , PAKISTAN,BANGLADESH, IRAN LIBYA, TUNISIA, SUDAN , EGYPT ,SOMALIA,SAUDI ARABIA BAHARAIN OR INDIA

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    india is greatest and most beautiful country of world.i have seen most of the world.but our system of human exploitation has brought things to zero.during muslim rule there was no exodus as system was more humane.entire world was coming to us but uneven distribution of wealth is creating all problems.
    indonesias economy is as big india(may be more)but u will find so many billionaire over there.though the population and area is 1/6th of india.yesterday one thieve from delhi spent
    250 crores on the marriage of his son.cases like this u will not find in europe or any muslim country.

    regarding patrick question,any of the mentioned country will be better than france if ur family is there and u have money.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, indonesias economy is as big india(may be more)but u will find so many billionaire over there.though the population and area is 1/6th of india
    — in 1997, their financial system collapsed, there was riots & lot of chinese were killed.
    don’t cover up the history because they are muslims.
    — interesting thing in 1997, indonesian rupiah was trading at 8000 to 1 usd, when it collapsed it went to 12,500 to 1 usd. most of the computer system with 4 digits for currecny conversion collapsed & they were redone to cope up with a 6 digit currency exchange.
    — indonesia economy is crony capaltalism, with military in control. but then you support anything muslim with blind eys.

    tajender Reply:

    WHY U WERE JUMPING WHEN ramavtar wrote,I
    why hindus behave like brainless moth.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @shan, if you analyse history civilizations have sprung up and then lost in oblivion.

    yes agree with it, think its due to knowledge not passed to future generation, or the future generation is screwed up due to various human made reasons, like religion. or geographical changes in their area.
    i think human rights / fee society / rule of law keeps the civilization going in long run.
    – china & india just woke up from great civilization, china has progressed & india still lagging behind.
    hope india will hv long innings.

    [Reply]

  • tajender

    behaviour of light which is not settled yet .apparently Al haytham was first to suggest that we view things because light reflected on objects penetrate the eyes.before this greeks and romans taught the IMAGE is transmitted intact to the eyes

    shan i suggest u go on reading about muslim scientists and muslim civilization u will come to know why muslims are still attached to their past.

    personally u are hypocrate and liar.some body with double standards and dual personality.

    when i wtote ,why hnidus behave like brainless moths,u start jumping like hungry kittens.and u are teaching us and telling that u are modern.
    all ur points are nothing but bullshit.as it is fashion to condemn mullah.what mullah has done whatever is done ,is done by state.mullah is most progressive force.u have killed billions of woman in prathas like sati naree..today u are killeng same weak creature in name of DAHEJ.
    u are teaching us how to behave with women.
    we play foot ball with 12th century rule ,that is why qatar(a village)football team is asia champion.

    problem with u people is u are ignorant about islam and muslim contribution to development of humanity .u are alsao brainwashed through british zoinist media.ur bengalee society is goverened by brhmnsts ,who change their colour with time.only aim is to remain at the top of pyramid.as per supreme court ,hinduism is not a religion.it is samaj. islamic thoughts were the base of rennainace in europe.as per prince charles church should accept that islamic civilization is base of our civilization.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ram autar your words OUR JOKE mullah is most progressive force .
    List of the progressive mullah is headed by no other than ONE EYED MULLAH OMAR and that prisner mullah AZHAR MASOOD of the AIR INDIA KANDAHAR hostage drama hostage exchange fame.this masood geezer was married and had a wife who was alive ,masood himself 40+,
    The day he landed in pakistan MARRIED A SIXTEEN YEAAR OLD GIRL(it is a fact)
    I guess his stay in Indian prison diet had kicked up his androgen l to a pathological level,

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    azhar masood is freedom fighter for some and terrorist for some but he is not mullah.same mullah omar is freedom fighter who is fighting against american occupation.but they are not religious authorities.other mullahs u dont know.islam is name of progress.islam destroyed the idols as they symbolize statism&divisiveness.we are not called mohammedans.word.mullah is used by zoinist media to attack islam.as they are scared of islam.70000french and 100000 americans are converting annually to islam,including their top icons like PARIS HILTON.and also they want to occupy muslim land for mineral resources.
    prophet mohammed(pbuh)said go upto china to get education.that is why upto 15th century most of the scientist thinkers philoshers people with good character came from our community.
    christianity was european response to islam.now one zoinist propagandist using name ibn sina.i advise u read the personality of original ibn sina.he died at the age of 57 but had following qualities,

    Main interests Medicine, philosophy, Islamic theology (kalam), physics, poetry, science, paleontology
    Notable ideas Founder of Avicennism; Father of modern medicine; Avicennian logic; concepts of inertia and momentum; forerunner of psychoanalysis; important contributor to geology; pioneer of aromatherapy and neuropsychiatry
    Major works The Book of Healing, The Canon of Medicine

    like him u will u will find hundreds.masood azhar marrige act was bad but better than prostitution.u bengalees are physically weak especially vegetarians hence ur need is less.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Muslim convert is indeed increasing in UK but in PRISON POPULATION , says a fair bit about its charm. muslims make 2.8% of UK population AND 7% OF PRISON POPULATION(excluding terrorist offences)
    As for bengalees , they are not vegetarians but avid fish eaters , and will sell their soul for a HILSA fish. Only who has eaten will know what I am talking about. This fish iol may have been the reason what prompted GOKHALE to say “what bengal thinks today rest of India thinks tomorrow”, and yes bengalees mean people of west bengal , people of bangladesh is known as BANGLADESHI.
    These fish eating people have produced TWO NOBEL LAUREATTES(no proper nobel laureattesfrom islamic world, if you exclude peace ) AND THE FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLE BOSON is named after S.N.BOSE

    ram autar Reply:

    shan i agree with u that fish is good for brain.because bengal came under occupation first .
    so what bengal was thinking todat india was thinking tommorow.gokhle was right.hilsa i eat atleast once in a weak.but general people dont have chance to eat it once in a month.
    fish eating is good for brain all doctors say.what i wrote was for general physical health.in calcutta half the populatio is walking skeleton..

    TWO NOBEL LAUREATTES(no proper nobel laureattesfrom islamic world, if you exclude peace

    one professor abduslam for physics and one egyption for chemistry i know.for others i have check.any why boasting.after partition whole of india did not get any noble price.

    ram autar Reply:

    Muslim convert is indeed increasing in UK but in PRISON POPULATION , says a fair bit about its charm. muslims make 2.8% of UK population AND 7% OF PRISON POPULATION(excluding terrorist offences

    i agree to ur datas but if u add people caught in economic corrution all over world figure will reverse.90%of 7%will be pakistanis caught in petty offences.economis offences run into millions.
    sau(100)sonar kee ek(1)lohar kee.

  • tajender

    Syed, l mirza, ashish, binoy, vinay, gopi, Raju, Raj, Rajeev(the ones I consider worth addressing, rest are internet urchins

    shan u are right,

    QADR ULLU KEE ULLU JANTA HAI

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    I just spotted this comment made by DR SHAN above- it is disgusting and demonstrates his lack of brain- —-’the response you expect from a “raw sewage of hell” caste’—–
    I will say it again, politely this time- who the hell here thinks that SHAN IS A DOCTOR, pl declare yourself.
    Who also thinks that SHAN is not disgusting in his comments- put yr hand up.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    .

    vaidik boast that they alone constitute the country’s intellectual cream was challenged by none other than the blue-eyed boy of the vaidiks — the “Khatri Sick” PM — described as the “god’s good man” — by the very ruling class. This is what he said:

    Poverty of brain

    Bombay: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Jan.6, 2011 bemoaned India’s inability to produce a Nobel laureate in science since late C.V. Raman won the coveted accolade for physics in 1927.

    “While several Indians have received global recognition for their work, and even Nobel prizes, we have not had an Indian working in India receive a Nobel Prize since Raman”, he said at a Science Foundation awards ceremony

    ISRO DEBACLE
    The latest is the ISRO tragedy (DV Jan.16, 2011 p.24: “ISRO’s bunch of Brahmin boys”). Ratan Tata, head of the Indian Inst. of Science in Bangalore, has said IISc produced nothing. But the IISc is not worried.

    The Brahminical ruling class (15%) headed by its 2% vaidiks are good only at eating, mating, drinking, idling, killing, destroying — of course boasting.

    The “Khatri Sick” PM now says they are duds. .

    But this class of people are a shameless lot. They don’t mind anybody, in or out of India, saying anything about them. Because they are the rulers. “Let the dogs go on barking. We don’t care”. This is what they say

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    tajender aka ramautar…i must salute you for the sheer tenacity and commitment you are showing in defending your religion ..one request.. .it is about the other guy contributing to this blog in your name..why cant you get someone with some skill in english prose…

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i am not defending my religion.i only awnser those who attack our religion on wrong grounds.
    i never attack others.what u see is reaction only.thanks for other comment.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    @ramavtar and tejender- bhai mere, why do you have to hide behind muslim names, I dont. India has changed- we shud wear our religion with pride. And please do stop this hindu Indian bashing, no point. 80% of the workers in my factory in bhiwadi are hindus and sikhs. dont fight

    @shan- you will be surprised- i extend my hand to you, just stop this name calling and attcking people on caste and religion. these blogs see some excellent contributions by ravi, syed, dr mishra, gopi, sandhu, hegde etc- but when you start name calling- u drive everyone away. so truce

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    rizwan i am not doing hindu bashing at all.i only inform some facts which media dont print.all my friends are hindus they know and see what i am writing.i am indian.regarding name,it is my right whether i call myself ravinder or jawaher or jamal.name has nothing to do with religion.i want unity in diversity.i write against those who are divisive.i .unity in diversity is integral part of our culture.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rat Autar

    allah hu f*ckbarr. f*ck islam f*ck allah

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @rizwan, I would request everyone to concentrate on muslim education in this blog and pl do not indulge in general muslim bashing.
    — nobody is against muslim education, but understand it cannot be done in batches, like group a now, group b later & so on… all indians should be educated to help himself. but i see lot of muslims giving more importance to preserving islam& islamic way in schools, does not create integration. many madrasa get money,. but they give more importance to their religion. why not convert madrassa to hv standard CBSE cirriculam. any student can study in it. if they want religious education it can be after school hours. Jamia has course in persian, think 10 different vocational course would be more helpful to muslims, than 200 phd in persian. this obsession creates lot of dis interest in larger population, who are blamed as islamophobes & facist. or worst rss supporters.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @hey ram, .all revieled religions prohibit this,being inhuman.we have started Interest free banking syatem.this has become very popular
    — interest free banking ? how do think the banks pay salary to staff, million $$ bonus for ceo & still make profit. can you pls explain in lay man terms, how bank makes money with out interest.
    –house you buy thro islamic banking, is sold to you by bank, which has already marked up the price with intrest & sold to you at higher price & you repay every month.
    –but for other they say we give you X $ loan, interest is Y$ and you repay Z$ every month. i hv benefit of refinancing when interest rates fluctuate & if i can get better deal. but you are stuck with bank.

    as usual, anything muslim makes you blind.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    raj u should be thankful to me that u will go to swarag because of me.all the time u say ram ram ram.now ur question onislamic banking.

    1.the present bankig system consists of cheaters.obama helped city bank by giving them 170 billion dollars.managemntgave 167 billion as bonus to their executive.leaving the cutomers to their condition.
    islamic banking or can say religious banking is basically a trading.suppose i have no but i want to bring material.they will open l/c for 1000 ruppees.they will buy the l/c for 1200/rupees.when u will recieve money u will pay them back.payment are delayed then also u have to pay 120 only.
    20 ruppes profit will run the bqnk.bank cannot charge 200 in case u r late.

    islamic banking is trading where they work as ur partners.they will charge extra interest if u fail to fullfil ur commitment.that is great relief for those who cannot pay in time.
    for farmers also amount is fixed if u cannot pay.if crop spoils u have option,not to pay.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    suppose if i have no money.sorry

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, present bankig system consists of cheaters
    — do you remember muslim managed bank – Memon Cooperative Bank – bombay
    (search wiki for more deatils) – went bust & kafir bank Bank of Baroda took over the bank to save the depositors. so stop this nonsense all things muslim is good & other are bad. there are cheaters in all religion.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, islamic banking – read this from – Mahathir Bin Mohamad
    http://www.labuanfsa.gov.my/jsp/epctrl.jsp?con=100416001070&cat=100416000027&mod=100416000010&pri=100416
    Speech by Tun Dr. Mahathir Bin Mohamad on ‘Islamic Finance as the Means to Revival of Islamic Renaissance’
    — 2. Islamic banking is basically concerned with elimination of interest or riba in the repayment of loans. But quite obviously the lenders i.e. the banks must earn something from lending money – a process fraught with risks.
    3. It is entirely possible for the whole loan to be lost. Without some means of getting a return from the business, the losses may lead to the bank failing or even closing down.
    — see, even muslms are worried, they think the huge arab mobey is the safety net. let’s see.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    – wiki, almost 90 % are into college education, cannot find much about primary or secondary education for muslims by these educational trust. they know to make money.

    These are some of the Muslim educational institutes in Tamil Nadu:

    A.I.M.A.N. College For Women – Trichy
    A.J.College of Pharmacy – Chennai
    Annai Arts & Science College – Kumabakonam
    C. Abdul Hakeem College of Arts and Science – Melvisharam
    C. Abdul Hakeem College of Engineering and Technology – Melvisharam
    Dhanish Ahmadh College of Engineering – Chennai.
    Muqayyath Sha Sirguro Wakf Board College – Madurai.
    Dr.Zakir Husain College – Ilayankudi.
    Hajee Karutha Rowther Howdia College – Uthamapalayam.
    Institute of safety management – Chennai
    Islamiah College – Vaniyambadi
    Islamiah Women’s Arts and Science College
    Jamal Mohamed College (Autonomous) – Trichy
    Justice Basheer Ahmed Sayeed College for Women – chennai
    Khader Mohideen College – Adirampattinam.
    M.I.E.T. Arts and Science College – Trichy
    M.A.R. Engieering college – Trichy.
    M.A.M. Engineering college – Trichy
    Mazharul-Uloom College – Aambur
    M.M.E.S Women’s’ College – Melvisharam
    Mohamed Sadhak A.J.College of Engineering – Chennai
    Mohamed Sathak Colloge of Arts and Science – Chennai
    Muslim Arts College – Thiruvithancode
    Naina Mohamed College of Arts and Science – Aranthangi
    Noorul Islam College of Engg, Thackkalay
    The New College – Chennai
    Measi Academy of Architecture
    New College Institute of management – Chennai
    PET Engg College, Vallioor
    Quaide Milleth College – Chennai
    Rabiammal Ahmed Mohideen College for Women – Thiruvarur
    RajaGiri Dawood Batcha college of Arts and Sciences – Thanjavur
    S.B.A.College of Science and Management – Arni
    S.M.Kader Engineering College – Maduramangalam
    Sadakathullah Appa College – Tirunelveli
    Sulthana Abdullah Rowther College for Women – Needamangalam
    Syed Hameedha Arts & science college – Kilakarai
    Thassim Beevi Abdul Kader College for Women – kilakarai
    Mohamed Sathak Polytechnic College(MSPC) – Kilakarai
    Texcity Arts and Science College – Coimbatore

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    primary education is duty of goverment.in india education is old not given.it is bussines.i agree with u.that why we should fight fight for education to fundamental right of every indian.must be supervised by goverment agencies.

    donation is also resrvation.for every muslim college there 20-30 private hindu college.among muslims this evil is new.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, must be supervised by goverment agencies.

    — this is exactly what happened in islamia case. now they say they are minority institute and cannot be governed by goverment laws & want to keep their special privilage & do what they want.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i agree with every school whether minority or majority should have goverment supervision on quality and syllabus.but no interference.u hindus arya samaj colleges,and collegs with name of very cast and sucaste.
    constitution permits us minorities to run their colleges.what is ur poblem.u brhmns are 2%only running thousands of colleges and hate spreading vidya bharti schools.what problem u have.

  • D Mishra, UK

    On this blog, I learn and I am entertained. The entertainment comes from surprisingly- ramautar- who does have a funny side to him, listen to what he says to Raj here- ‘raj u should be thankful to me that u will go to swarag because of me.all the time u say ram ram ram.’ Ha
    I learn, because I did not know that education has become such big business in India. And happy to see a long list muslim educational Industrialists (only in India eh) in Tamil Nadu. So, I guess everyone is in on the take, everone has his snout in the trough of big-money-education.
    I know the criticism- this leads to fragmentation of society along caste and religious lines (muslim, sindhi, gujrati colleges etc) and there must be loose regulatory standards. Very true. But my take is that if the govt cannot provide college education for all, then let the pvt sector in. First step. Regulation can come later.
    At least AIIMS, IIT, IIM are largely autonomous and corruption free

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    But my take is that if the govt cannot provide college education for all, then let the pvt sector in
    - private sector is not worried about quality education, they will hv to pay more to teachers.
    - that’s why we hv 10000’s of educated unemployable engineers.
    - kerala has 100% litracy, but see the development, majority of educated hv no scope in kerala and they are forced to go out of their state & do work which is noway connected with, what they studied.
    - now an engineer / b.sc., degree is same as p.u.c. or s.s.l.c. certificate during my fathers day.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    I know the criticism- this leads to fragmentation of society along caste and religious lines (muslim, sindhi, gujrati colleges etc)
    — fragementation of society is not after collage, it happnes right from school days when children is made to think about people based on religion. its him & other religion.
    its the religious study. luckly they don’t teach manu script or first testment in school these days which are filled with horrible things. but koran cannont be changed & they are introduce to kafirs. many are able to come out this nonsense, but people like ram autar cannot.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    “saddam had 70%approval rating”

    Impossible. No shia approved of saddam.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    saddam had 70%approval rating
    — don’t worry, as ram has problem with 0′es

    ram autar Reply:

    ussr was great no doubt but zoinist rulers destroyed the system to bring russian jews to settle in west bank.

    Libya documents: ‘A programme to enhance the international reputation of Libya’A US-based consultancy, Monitor Group, was engaged by the Libyan regime to improv

    everybody do this.

    ram autar Reply:

    this is the survey of european and american media.that is why saddamites are active even today.lost thousands of workers.

    ram autar Reply:

    syed,

    bath party had 66%shias.most of his top generals and ministers were shias.before american came main identity was iraqi,not shia and sunni.first american plane was shot down by one ali,a shia.
    shia sunni conflict was planted zoinists to divide society and win.in first war of fallujah,shia sunnis prayed in same mosque and went to fight occupiers together.even ayatollah satani
    apealed for unity.

    ram autar Reply:

    rss run vidyabharti schools teaches hatred on base of lies.they teach hqatred for everybody over there.we teach holy qoran.no hatred.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    I happened to see a Kuwaiti TV channel (that comes with a package of dish connection, includes several Indian channels too).

    This Kuwaiti channel was showing the movie Ohm Shanti Ohm. The channel suppressed the words Ohm Shanti Ohm in the song, just showing the lip movement when those words came!

    Education means open mind, accepting, questioning…..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy u are lying.nothing like this.in dubai i have seen mosue 2 temple and one gurudwara in same compound.om shanti om is not religiou it is cultural why they will do it.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @binoy Hegde, Zia Huq CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME, REFELECT ON THIS
    “Later I asked pandita about his own exile , another war. He wrote to me in an Email: I left kashmir on 4th april on 1990 along with my family , leaving everything behind. We could not take anything with us except my parents’ educational degrees and some of my mother’s jewellery.life was very tough initially and we had to sleep on sheets for days altogetherLife had become very difficult in kashmir . one of my father’s friend was waylaid by terrorist , shot in his knees and THEN THEY SPRAYED PEE ON HIM,and after torture, he was shot dead.A woman a nurse was kidnapped GANG RAPED FOR DAYS(Islam religion of peace) AND THEN CUT ALIVE ON A MECHANICAL WOOD CUTTING MACHINE.
    We had become Tutsis of kashmir.
    (Source India , a biography of 1.2 billion people , by Patrick french Page179

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    father’s friend was waylaid by terrorist

    may be he was spying for indian army against fighters.fighters have killed hundreds of muslims for the same crime.
    kashmiri pundits were removed in organized way by jagmohan to save them from the pain of round the clock curfew which continued for months.

    GANG RAPED FOR DAYS(Islam religion of peace) AND THEN CUT ALIVE ON A MECHANICAL WOOD CUTTING

    this is a lie.can be the work of parivar.they usually do it during riot.give me the name of nurse.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    benoy and sha

    read this miracle of col.qaddafi,

    Virtually unknown in the West: Libya’s water resources
    A. PEASANT at twelfthbough.blogspot.com

    We still wonder how on earth did Gaddafi manage to stay in power for forty years? Did no one notice his madness until now?
    Did no one notice that he built a HUGE FRESH WATER PIPELINE to the Benghazi region, that lunatic?
    Were they waiting for him to finish?

    Libya – click to enlarge

    Libya’s Great Man-Made River Project, September 1, 2010

    The 1st of September marks the anniversary of the opening of the major stage of Libya’s Great Man-Made River Project. This incredibly huge and successful water scheme is virtually unknown in the West, yet it rivals and even surpasses all our greatest development projects. The leader of the so-called advanced countries, the United States of America cannot bring itself to acknowledge Libya’s Great Man-Made River. The West refuses to recognize that a small country, with a population no more than four million, can construct anything so large without borrowing a single cent from the international banks.

    …In the 1960s during oil exploration deep in the southern Libyan desert, vast reservoirs of high quality water were discovered in the form of aquifers. …

    …In Libya there are four major underground basins, these being the Kufra basin, the Sirt basin, the Morzuk basin and the Hamada basin, the first three of which contain combined reserves of 35,000 cubic kilometres of water. These vast reserves offer almost unlimited amounts of water for the Libyan people.

    The people of Libya under the guidance of their leader, Colonel Muammar Al Qadhafi, initiated a series of scientific studies on the possibility of accessing this vast ocean of fresh water. Early consideration was given to developing new agricultural projects close to the sources of the water, in the desert. However, it was realized that on the scale required to provide products for self sufficiency, a very large infrastructure organization would be required. In addition to this, a major redistribution of the population from the coastal belt would be necessary. The alternative was to ‘bring the water to the people’.

    In October 1983, the Great Man-made River Authority was created and invested with the responsibility of taking water from the aquifers in the south, and conveying it by the most economical and practical means for use, predominantly for irrigation, in the Libyan coastal belt.

    By 1996 the Great Man-Made River Project had reached one of its final stages, the gushing forth of sweet unpolluted water to the homes and gardens of the citizens of Libya’s capital Tripoli. Louis Farrakhan, who took part in the opening ceremony of this important stage of the project, described the Great Man-Made River as “another miracle in the desert.” Speaking at the inauguration ceremony to an audience that included Libyans and many foreign guests, Col. Qadhafi said the project “was the biggest answer to America… who accuse us of being concerned with terrorism.”

    The Great Man-Made River, as the largest water transport project ever undertaken, has been described as the “eighth wonder of the world”. It carries more than five million cubic metres of water per day across the desert to coastal areas, vastly increasing the amount of arable land. The total cost of the huge project is expected to exceed $25 billion (US).

    Consisting of a network of pipes buried underground to eliminate evaporation, four meters in diameter, the project extends for four thousand kilometres far deep into the desert. All material is locally engineered and manufactured. Underground water is pumped from 270 wells hundreds of meters deep into reservoirs that feed the network. The cost of one cubic meter of water equals 35 cents. The cubic meter of desalinized water is $3.75. Scientists estimate the amount of water to be equivalent to the flow of 200 years of water in the Nile River.

    The goal of the Libyan Arab people, embodied in the Great Man-Made River project, is to make Libya a source of agricultural abundance, capable of producing adequate food and water to supply its own needs and to share with neighboring countries. In short, the River is literally Libya’s ‘meal ticket’ to self-sufficiency.

    Self-sufficiency?!? Absolutely Not Allowed. Banksters don’t like that sort of thing one bit.

    This project has been in the works for many years. Have you ever heard of it? We had not until today.

    Underground “Fossil Water” Running Out, National Geographic, May 2010

    Libya turns on the Great Man-Made River, by Marcia Merry, Printed in the Executive Intelligence Review, September 1991

    A gala ceremony was held in Libya at the end of August, at which Libyan leaders “turned on the tap” of the Great Man-Made River, the water pipeline/viaduct project designed to bring millions of liters of water from beneath the Sahara Desert, northward to the Benghazi region on the Mediterranean coast. The inauguration marked the end of Phase I of the project, which is slated for completion in 1996.

    Under the giant scheme, water is pumped from aquifers under the Sahara in the southern part of the country, where underground water resources extend into Egypt and Sudan. Then the water is transported by reinforced concrete pipeline to northern destinations. Construction on the first phase started in 1984, and cost about $5 billion. The completed project may total $25 billion. South Korean construction experts built the huge pipes in Libya by some of the most modern techniques. The engineering feat involves collecting water from 270 wells in east central Libya, and transporting it through about 2,000 kilometers of pipeline to Benghazi and Sirte. The new “river” brings 2 million cubic meters of water a day. At completion, the system will involve 4,000 kilometers of pipepines, and two aqueducts of some 1,000 kilometers. Joining in celebrating the inauguration of the artificial river were dozens of Arab and African heads of state and hundreds of other foreign diplomats and delegations. Among them were Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, King Hassan of Morocco, the head of Sudan, Gen. Omar El Beshir, and Djibouti’s President Hassan Julied.

    Col. Muammar Qaddafi told the celebrants: “After this achievement, American threats against Libya will double…. The United States will make excuses, [but] the real reason is to stop this achievement, to keep the people of Libya oppressed.” Qaddafi presented the project to the cheering crowd as a gift to the Third World.
    Mubarak spoke at the ceremony and stressed the regional importance of the project. Qaddafi has called on Egyptian farmers to come and work in Libya, where there are only 4 million inhabitants. Egypt’s population of 55 million is crowded in narrow bands along the Nile River and delta region. Over the last 20 years, the water improvement projects envisioned for Egypt, which could provide more water and more hectares of agricultural and residential land, have been repeatedly sabotaged by the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, and the Anglo-American financial interests behind them.

    In the 1970s, Qaddafi expelled many Egyptian families from Libya, but over the recent months the two countries have become close once again. There are plans to build a railway line to facilitate travel back and forth. There is also a standing commission between Sudan and Libya for integrating economic activity.

    Over 95% of Libya is desert, and the new water sources can open up thousands of hectares of irrigated farmland. At present over 80% of the country’s agriculture production comes from the coastal regions, where local aquifers have been overpumped, and salt water intrusion is taking place. The Great Man-Made River will relieve this. The water now flowing will immediately supplement supplies for domestic and industrial needs in Benghazi and Sirte. But Libyan officials plan for 80% of the overall project’s flow to eventually be used for irrigating old farms, and reclaiming some desert lands. Since 20% of Libya’s imports are foodstuffs, expanded water supplies are a means to greater self-sufficiency. The Great Man-Made River project and its objectives fly in the face of the water-control schemes sanctioned by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. These institutions have blocked work on other “great projects” such as the Jonglei Canal–the huge ditch that was designed as a straight channel on the upper White Nile in southern Sudan. The Jonglei Canal, which stands half-finished and abandoned at present, would have drained swamplands, aided agriculture, transportation, power resources, and health, and provided expanded flow to the Nile River all the way down to Egypt. The World Bank and the U.S. State Department are backing a “Middle East Water Summit” in Turkey this November, which is intended to promote only politically favored projects such as desalination plants in Saudi Arabia, and water shortages elsewhere.

    London and Washington circles were apoplectic about the opening of the new Libyan water project. The London Financial Times ran criticisms of the project from Angus Henley of the London-based Middle East Economic Digest. The pipeline, he said, was “Qaddafi’s pet project. He wants to be seen as something other than the scourge of the West.” The Financial Times called the project Qaddafi’s “pipedream,” stating that critics may be awed by the engineering involved, “But they regard the dream as a monument to vanity that makes little economic sense in a country where the U.N. Development Program says 94.6% of territory is desert wasteland.”
    If it is vanity that motivated the project, at least the vanity of Libya’s head of state is being channeled in a productive direction in this case–which is more than can be said of the leaders of Britain and the United States.

    Libya ethnic map from Arthur Zbygniew

    Click through for many other maps.
    Read More Great Articles from A. Peasant at twelfthbough.blogspot.com
    Posted by poorrichard at 9:10 AM 10 comments:
    Anonymous said…
    This is very old news. The project was started in the 1980s, around the same time as Reagan and the U.S. press began deomonizing Kaddafi.

    March 4, 2011 11:39 AM
    Anonymous said…
    Another water project blocked by the banks is the canal across Israel to the Dead Sea. This is the biggest hydroelectric potential on Earth and it would also refill the Dead Sea and provide evaporated moisture to the deserts of Jordan and Israel. Apparently Israel can’t stand the thought of benefitting Jordan. Maybe after Israel conquers Jordan this project will be allowed. The electric power from this canal would exceed the Aswan dam manyfold.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ram Autar,
    I know almost nothing about gaddafi but I do feel that democracy. despite its shortcomings, is still the most palatable form of government.

    If Gaddafi has done such good work then he should stand fpor elections and the public will definitely vote him into office if they are satisfied with his work!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    plane ka pilot ek hota.selection se nahin qualification se.saddam had 70%approval rating when attacked by bush.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ram, read this miracle of col.qaddafi — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_Group

    Work for Muammar Qadhafi Regime
    The group had been hired in 2006 by the regime in Libya in a project to, in the firms own words, “Enhance the Profile of Libya and Muammar Qadhafi” [17].

    Mother Jones has obtained internal company documents which were originally published by a Libayn oposition group (www.libya-nclo.com) that show that Monitor Group had been retained “not to promote economic development, but ‘to enhance the profile of Libya and Muammar Qadhafi.’”[17]

    The article went on to report that in 2006: Mark Fuller, the CEO of Monitor, and Rajeev Singh-Molares, a director of the firm, wrote,

    Libya has suffered from a deficit of positive public relations and adequate contact with a wide range of opnion-leaders and contemporary thinkers. This program aims to redress the balance in Libya’s favor[17].

    Mother Jones, Boston Globe and Politico have reported that Monitor Group was retained by Libya to do essentially PR work for Qadhafi and his regime. Mother Jones has produced internal company documents that state:

    According to the proposal agreed on July 4th 2006, the goal of the project was defined as follows: “The project is a sustained, long term program to enhance international understanding and appreciation of Libya and the contribution it has made and may continue to make to its region and to the world. It will emphasize the emergence of the new Libya and its ongoing process of change.” During the course of the project a second important goal was introduced by the client. This goal is to introduce Muammar Qadhafi as a thinker and intellectual, independent of his more widelyknown and very public persona as the Leader of the Revolution in Libya[17].

    It was reported by Politico that the firm was working with a $3 million per year contract to work to promote Libya and to recruit global figures to promote the reputation of Qadhafi [17] [18] Under this contract Monitor Group engaged and flew to Libya several leading academics and other luminaries including: Joseph Nye of Harvard’s Kennedy School, Anthony Giddens of the London School of Economics and Benjamin Barber of Rutgers University, who later published positive articles[19] about Libya following their trips to the country, according to the following article by The Nation.

    The Mother Jones article went on to report that the company aimed to publish a book to be title “Qadhafi, the Man and His Ideas,” but the book was never published The article presents information that, though claiming to be promoting democratic development in Libya, the project was in fact collecting fees from promotional work for the dictator [17]..

    An article by the Sunlight Foundation raised the question of why Monitor was not registered as a foreign lobbying group under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA), given what appeared to be a lobbying effort by firm on behalf of the Libyan government and Muammar Qadhafi. In official company documents which were directed to its Libyan clients, the firm claimed that it is not a lobbying organization.

    [edit] The role of Monitor Group in the LSE Libya Links’s affair
    Main article: LSE Libya Links
    One of the prime targets for the activities of Monitor Group have been academics associated with the LSE, such as professors Anthony Giddens and David Held. In 2006 and 2007 the company organized two trips to Libya for Anthony Giddens, when the former LSE Director met with Muammar al-Gaddafi. Giddens has declined to comment on the financial compensation he received.[20]

    In a July 2009 letter to Abdullah Senussi, a high-ranking Libyan official who was convicted in absentia in France for his role in a 1989 bombing of a passenger plane flying over Niger that resulted in the deaths of 170 people, Monitor Group reported that:

    We will create a network map to identify significant figures engaged or interested in Libya today … We will identify and encourage journalists, academics and contemporary thinkers who will have interest in publishing papers and articles on Libya, … We are delighted that after a number of conversations, Lord Giddens has now accepted our invitation to visit Libya in July,[21]

    Giddens’ first visit to Libya resulted in articles in the New Statesman, El País[verification needed] and La Repubblica, where he argued that Libya had been transformed. In the New Statesman he wrote: “Gaddafi’s ‘conversion’ may have been driven partly by the wish to escape sanctions, but I get the strong sense it is authentic and there is a lot of motive power behind it. Saif Gaddafi is a driving force behind the rehabilitation and potential modernisation of Libya. Gaddafi Sr, however, is authorising these processes.”[22] During the second visit, Monitor Group organized a panel of “three thinkers” – Giddens, Gaddafi, and Benjamin Barber, author of Jihad vs. McWorld – chaired by Sir David Frost.[23][24]

    When questioned, the Monitor Group admitted to having “contributed” to the PhD dissertation[citation needed] ostensibly written by Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, the son of the Libyan leader, for which he was given a PhD at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ram, read this miracle of col.qaddafi
    how is son got his Pphd
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_Group

    When questioned, the Monitor Group admitted to having “contributed” to the PhD dissertation[citation needed] ostensibly written by Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, the son of the Libyan leader, for which he was given a PhD at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    , read this miracle of col.qaddafi
    how is son got his Pphd

    this is nothing to do with greatness of qaddafi.who gave water to thirsty people of libya.instead of spending money on hotels bars and multi-story towers.he made canals from underground water resources.enough for 200yrs for people of libya.nothing was imported everything was locally manufactures except main parts.

    his son is saiful islam qaddafi is very hansome speaks flawless english.accepted in western gang of robbers.he deposited 100billion dollars in various banks of london.
    his father was against this.west has frozen this money.but still he has 500billions here and there.

    raj Reply:

    @ram, read this miracle of col.qaddafi,

    - its same as the left wing authors praising about the great U.S.S.R. , after the fall we saw the truth

    - interesting read at
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/mar/04/libya-gaddafi-monitor-documents-letter
    Libya documents: ‘A programme to enhance the international reputation of Libya’A US-based consultancy, Monitor Group, was engaged by the Libyan regime to improv

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @syed, gaddafi and saddam hussain. First gaddafi , well according to his closest adviser HE IS DEFINITELY NOT NORMAL(read mad).Though I must say if you analyse the entire history of Libya , I would say Gaddafi comes out quite well . In earlier periods he lot of good for libya , he took control of OIL FIELDS(previously US/British oil companies used to own it and give govt a paltry sum.He turned this on its head. Also his green book is NOT A QUORAN with green jacket. Also HE DID NOT HAVE A HAREM and married a ?black nurse who had saved his life. Then as happens with all dictatorship , its success will sow the seed of its downfall with cronyism, nepotism ,arrogance. You got to remember he is dealing with a bunch of camel herding tribe. Though as Victor Hugo said “No force on earth can stop a great idea when its time has come”
    With Saddam , HE WAS FIERCELY NATIONALIST, but that’s about it , rest he was a despot , and DOWNRIGHT STUPID with no inkling about international politics.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @shan,
    Here I would like to quote another well used saying – “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

    When gaddafi took over power in a bloodless coup he meant well – he had seen firsthand how the wealth of his country was being sold for a pittiance to US, he had personally seen how the king of his country had lost several million of his country’s wealth in one night of gambling .
    In this agree with what ram avtar – he did a lot of good things, but in the end power corrupted him (and his sons to a much greater extent).
    As things stand, currently he (and his sons) are the most hated family in Libya.

    This is the good thing about a democracy – you can always vote out your president if ypou are sick of him. There is no such release valve in a dictatorship/monarchy.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    As things stand, currently he (and his sons) are the most hated family in Libya.

    this is media report and wrong.lot of rallies are going on in his favour also.egyptian army has interfered and helping rebels.now nato contigent is also.

    thousands of people go to grave of saddam and weep for his return.

    This is the good thing about a democracy – you can always vote out your president if ypou are sick of him. There is no such release valve in a dictatorship/monarchy

    this is game of money and competition between two paid servants of zoinism in america and matter few bottles of whisky in india.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed , fully agree , may i add what someone said “democracy may not be the perfect system ,but there is no better alternative”

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Syed

    Gadaffi did an even worse thing — the country does not have any institutions, each locality is ruled/governed by the dominant tribe, leaving a huge vaccum if he leaves..A paranoid man, he saw to that he does not have any opposition; in that sense he did not have a stromng military (other than his own security forces) . He has seen to that the counbtry will be split like Somalia when he dies or gets thrown out…

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr benoy time has changed.islamic fundamentalist,hindu fascist and imperialists are same and one.now it is war for ROTI KAPDA AUR MAKAN.in egyption demonstrations muslim brotherhood was seen nowhere.they were on run.socialist secular slogans were on forefront.

    not only arab world but europe is having same wave.before banks were defaulting now states are defaulting.britain is verge on defaulting,ireland and cyprus already defaultes spain is next.
    zoinists pauperized america.demostrations has already started there.
    ghaddafi challenged the zoinists.so he was mad.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    shan so called capitalist democracy is a game wher ghareeb se vote aur ameer se paisa ek doosre kee rakkhsha ke liye liya jata hai.in america 70 -90%consult the doctors for mental depression.so forget that democarcy is best system it will soon finish like communism.

    regarding qaddafi i only praised his great act of many water canals in desert.this is a miracle.nobody is perfect and enemy always repeatedly project ur bad side.he is great leader.
    regarding harems,every rajput king used have triputi has biggest brothel of the world.have 52000 crores earned through cheating,every british kings used to had keeps,even popes used to had concubines and many wives.

    Gaddafi has always supported revolutionary movements around the world. When the media – in the service of the U.S. – praised the apartheid regime South Africa, young Gaddafi in Libya trained and sent them back with the best weapons to win freedom in South africa.

    Gadhafi wrote the Green Book, the Third Universal Theory, which deals with controversial and real issues. He complains, for example, about the falsification of democracy through parliamentary assemblies. In most countries that consider themselves democratic, including the United States of America, political parties are organized criminal gangs to loot the people’s money in legislative assemblies, City Councils, House of Representatives, etc.

    This observation – and a book in publication – certainly irritate and anger them? The defenders of parliamentary democracy? The Green Book, written by Gaddafi, says that workers should be involved and self-employed, and that the land must be of those who work it and those who live in the house. And power shall be exercised by the people directly, without intermediaries, without politicians, through popular congresses and committees, where the whole population decides the fundamental issues of the district, city and country. These words, which everyone knows are true, revolt and irritate those few who benefit from the falsification of democracy, especially the capitalist regimes.

    But the press will keep on on forging the news, boiling hatred by spreading lies, because it is following orders from the U.S. government, very interested in the large oil reserves of Libya

    regarding saddam he was fooled zoinists fooled the people of iraq.killed one million iraqis 5 million
    refugees.so called democracy is headed by head of dawa terrorist party.this is what they want for india

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    saddam was not fool. zoinists fooled the people of iraq.killed one million iraqis 5 million
    refugees.so called democracy is headed by head of dawa terrorist party.this is what they want for india through abhinav bharat.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    read this miracle of col.qaddafi
    how is son got his Pphd
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_Group

    When questioned, the Monitor Group admitted to having “contributed” to the PhD dissertation[citation needed] ostensibly written by Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, the son of the Libyan leader, for which he was given a PhD at the London School of Economics and Political Science

    raj bhai swarg wale qaddafi ke water canal project aur ladke kee degree ka kya lena dena.

    hum ek interview mein gaye.sir ne poocha ki,TOOFAN MAIL 90 KE SPEED CHALTA HAI,TO BATAO HAMARI AGE KYA HAI.
    MAINE IMMEDIATE KAH DIYA 50 YEARS.
    SIR KHUSH HUYE KAHA SAHEE HAI.NAUKARI BHI DEDEE.
    BAAD ME POOCHA TUMHE PATA KAISE CHAL.
    MAINE KAHA MEIRA CHOTHA BHAI 25 SAAL KA HAI.

    WO ADHA PAGAL HAI.USEE SE LAGA KI AAP 50 SAAL KE HAIN.

    BATAIYE CANAL PROJECT KA AUR SAIULISLAM KEE DEGREE KA KYA LE DENA.JISKE FATHER KE PAAS 500 BILLION DOLLAR CASH HO WOH DEGREE KHUD LIKHEGA,

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @syed, good point. The middle east region saw some giants emerge in the post colonial setup. Most hated the previous exploitation by the west and in the beginning were quite aggressive in protecting their interests, like Nasser, when he nationalised the Suez Canal.
    But the trick was in knowing when to turn, when to realise that one cannot be at war with the whole world, particualrly the west. So Egypt, which was invaded by the anglo-french after Suez, now has the closest of relations with Europe and gains billions in tourism.
    The other ‘giants’ started well- Saddam, Gaddhafi- and did some good for their country, but in the end their military misadventures and brutal internal dictatorships got the better of them. So adios to them.
    Some ‘giants’ of the post colonial setup like Sultan Qaboos of Oman and King Hussein of Jordan, have however maintained the middle path, and chugged along without much publicity and done a lot of good for their country

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Ram Autar
    “his son is saiful islam qaddafi is very hansome speaks flawless english.accepted in western gang of robbers.he deposited 100billion dollars in various banks of london.
    his father was against this.west has frozen this money.but still he has 500billions here and there”.

    Ok, Gadafi is old now and is grooming his son as his successor. So what does the public do? The 500 billion is Libya’s money and not saiful’s.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    public will fix ghaddafi also he has to bring money and more freedom to the people of libya if he wants to survive.
    this wave of change will not leave anybody.big demonstrations are going on even in saudi arabia.something unthinkable.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    India also had its loonies- Sanjay Gandhi was as bad as Gadhafi if he had been allowed to persist. But here the system took care of Sanjay- and by system I mean-
    -The democratic setup
    -Secularism, which is borne out of the majority hindu/sikh culture of give and take
    -The vibrant culture of dissension with many alternative voices like socialism and multi party democracy and regional parties.

    I may disagree with 80 % of what Arundati says, and some of it is salacious and borders on seditious, but I value the system and the culture that allows the Arundatis to speak out. And the JP Narayans, Ram Jethmalanis, Arun Shourie, Vir Sanghvi, Barkha Dutt, Tarun Vijays etc.
    Discordant voices, yes, cacophony yes, but they must not be silenced.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Secularism, which is borne out of the majority hindu/sikh culture of give and take

    balwinder i dont agree with u.had above will be true our society would not have been so uneven.
    we have no heart to give anything to anybody.we grab the cake instead of increasing it.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ram Avtar,
    Since you consider dictators to be paragons of virtue, honesty and selflessness and want them to continue, then – both you and the USA/Israel are on the same side now.

    Israel/USA despeartely wanted Mubarak to continue. Why? Because Mubarak used to ride roughshod over the opinion of his ppl especially regarding Israel. FYI after Mubarak was toppled, Egypt allowed an Iranian battleship to cross the suez canal (the first time in history) despite strong Israeli protests.

    The fun is just beginning…….though of course the west is trying its best to stop it!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed, as much I agree that west in general and anglosaxon in particular are SOB ,but you can’t get away from the fact UNLESS THESE CONTRIES BECOME SECULAR REPUBLIC with full freedom to express and debate religion , NO PROGRESS IS POSSIBLE. You need this climate for SCIENCE TO THRIVE.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan where u are ,religion has no place when movements like this starts.even queen is protector of church.in egypt muslim brotherhood was nowhere.they were very low profile.
    islamic fundamentalism,hindu fascism and zoinist imperialism are the two side of same coin.
    now india should be for far bigger peoples assault.when multinationals were allowed ,70crores of 120 were below poverty lin.now 86 crores are below poverty line..poverty in india is more than sub sahara african nations.but the blood curdling history of hindu india is repeated again and agin.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mubarak was israeli agent in the area.very soon he and his sons will loose their necks.they were selling egyptian gas at half the international rates and taking hefty commission.documents that his ons were taking 10%of sale has been recovered.
    regarding iranian ships,now all muslim regimes has to bow the just b wishes of syed hassan nassarullah.they are only grass vroot movement in arab world.he is household name.
    if american ships can pass why not iranian.new combination will be iran china russia muslim world, non brhmnst india and latin america.this gignatic force will challenge europe and america,or international zionism.3rd world will finish these evil forces and isreal.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @ram Autar , Indian poverty will vanish in FIFTY YEARS if the current growth rate can be maintained.
    far more quickly the same can be acheived if there is ULTRA MODERNISATION of farm practices keeping in line with western farming techniques. Coupled with that need RIGHT TO FOOD/WORK and COMPULSORY EDUCATION TILL AGE 16, THIS WILL DRASTICALLY BRING DOWN POPULATION GROWTH, but there is a big IF , ONLY IF THE POLITICIANS ACT.This multinational is a red herring.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ram Autar , Indian poverty will vanish in FIFTY YEARS if the current growth rate can be maintained

    this looks to be wishful thinking.when reforms were started we had 70 cror people below poverty line now with 9%growth numbers have increased to 86 crores.western forming will create more unemployment in rular areas.economic development is being used to rob the poore and nation.

    change currency notes attack all ashrams and temple and mazars take out immense wealth lying over there annd use it for development of infrastructure,free education and health services.
    nobody should allow have more thant certain amount like in china.100s of top executives are excuted.for amassing wealth by looting public funds.country be secular in true sense.
    only at delhi i feel i walk in jurasic park.elephant monkey mammals snake everything is there.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    P o v e r t y in I n d i a w i l l n o t v a n i s h t ill t h e p o p u l a t i on e x p l o s i o n i s not c o n t r o l l e d

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @B Sandhu
    Indians are capable of excelling in anything. Only problem is that there is no will! Where they have shown will, results are before you ..check out the Delhi metro or the IGI airport ..both world class!
    Controlling population requires political will which none of the main political parties has shown.

    @Shan
    “UNLESS THESE CONTRIES BECOME SECULAR REPUBLIC with full freedom to express and debate religion , NO PROGRESS IS POSSIBLE”
    Give these countries time. They have still to get out of the clutches of dictators/kings. Becoming secular is not just about passing legislation! It needs change in the very attitudes of ppl with liberal thoughts/ideas percolating down and becoming democratic is just the beginning of a long process.

    I remember back in my childhood the only women wearing burkhas used to be the older generation on the wrong side of 60 and if that trend had continued muslims would have become more or less like anyone else. Now even the young girls arewearing burkhas. I am sure Gopi will have something to say on this. That brings me back to my favourite bugbear – Saudi Arabia which is 100% responsible for this. I have detailed this in my earlier postings.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed , You cant be serious. I thought younger urban generation is only muslim by surname, in fact some of them have names with no religious connotation like Diya. I remember Ashish posting a link to a news about a very very non descript place in UP where girls backed by NGO’s have taken to wearing jeans. I can speak little about west bengal. People are not aware 23% of population is Muslims. Economically they are worst than any of their coreligionist in rest of India.
    They are mostly semi rural , agarian (thanks to land reform of CPM, the main beneficiary has been muslim landless labourers who have tiny patch of land) But socially they have had no benefit whatsoever from india’s 9% growth. That has gone to banerjee’s basu’s and mitra’s.
    My sister’s husband who practices in Malda as a lawyer tells me the single most evil that bedevils the muslims there is this business of Talaq, notwithstanding the fact they are very poor to begin with. Though late gani khan’s niece is English Medium educated and currently a MP in Delhi.Though Aligarh muslim University is opening a full fletched campus in Murshidabad, knee jerk reaction from Govt due to the whip of Saccchar committee.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed

    You are absolutely right. I blame Saudi Arabia for creating a poisonous situation in Kerala. The sunni extremists, with funding from KSA, have done so much damage, it may take centuries to recover. It inded was Gods own country, with three religions coexisting harmoniously until 6-8 years ago. The Muslim boys and girls who studied with me could not be distinguished from others. The Muslim women (except the old women who would wear a peculiar blouse and cover the head with something like a bath towel) could not be distinguished from other women. Now, many boys wear the Muslim cap, many women wear burqua, and many girls wear hijab. Its eems they are forced to wear by their mosque authorities. In fact, a Muslim girl filed a case against her neighbours that they are forcing her to wear hijab etc, and she should be given police protection so that she can wear jeans (her preferred outfit). I believe the court agreed to that..

    Two respected progressive Maulavis were assassinated by Sunni extremists who are funded by KSA. Chekannur Maulavi, a highly respected progressive Islamic scholar, a voice of reason, a force for coexistence, and an admirer of the age old Indian civilization was assassinated few years ago (his body remains have not yet been located) by extremists few years ago, the CBI case about that just got wrapped up. Three months ago another respected Maulavi was assassinated in kasaragod.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    A 16 year old Muslim boy walks into a funeral procession in NW Pakistan and blows himself (and of course kills about 35 men, women and children (all Muslims) who were grieving for a dead older relative!)

    The day before that, a bomb explodes in Faislabad (planted by Punjabi Muslim Taliban) and kills 50 men, women,a nd children who were going on with their lives.

    Why do Muslims have this love for death? Why do Mullahs teach them to kill?
    What is the cause for which the 16 year old boy is brainwashed to die? It was not for independence, it was not for the removal of government, it was an action of a revenge.

    shan Reply:

    What was the cause of this sixteen yr to die. EXTREEME POVERTY.and unable to immigrate to england

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    neither extremme poverty nor immigration to poor england.

    those who have seen their loved one dying will do the same.shan u too will do the same.
    moreover many raymond devis and mi16 agents are active in that area.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Shan,
    I disagree with extreme poverty being the reason for blowing up himself. Poverty can lead to crime offenses, can involve killing too. But not blowing oneself up. Be it Islamic or any terror (LTTE etc), one can’t do it without being induced with ideologies.

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, I agree that they ned to be indoctrinated, but i think that is too heavy a word, they just need tapping , i was told that during Naxalite mayhem in 1971 , my mother said there used to be a rickshawallah , from bihar.Now the naxalites had turned big tracts of calcutta a no go area, and only their WRIT prevailed. They used to collect COOKED food from each household.
    The rickshawalla turned naxalite , his business was nil,free food,YOU CAN HARDLY EXPECT HIM TO MASTER DIALECTICAL MATRIALISM or the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO.
    A bit of adventure and GULLIBLE STORIES OF 72 VIRGINS WAITING IN HEAVEN , ONLY SHOWN THE EFFECT AND THE CAUSE OF THE ISLAMIC HAPLESSNESS,AND MANY WERE FAILED IN LIFE / MUDDLED IN LIFE / MOST IMPORTANT FOR EDUCATED TERRORIST IS
    MALCONTENT WITH LIFE.

    ram autar Reply:

    there are many raymond davis still in that are till they kicked out things will continue like this.

    Why do Muslims have this love for death? Why do Mullahs teach them to kill?

    tamil tigers were not muslims.everybody love his life why no explosion in dubai lucknow or turkey.

    it was an action of a revenge

    u are right when u will see ur mother and brother cut in to pieces through drone attacks.u will do the same

    ram autar Reply:

    during budhdha days also india was poor.system makes us poor.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    SHAN POVERETY GOES WITH CASTE NOT RELIGION. A GOOD REORT.U WILL LIKE THIS. Generations pay off debts through slavery
    Uttar Pradesh, India – An army of workers, their faces encrusted with dust, toils beside a story-high pile of unfired bricks. They are helping build a new India that appears to be leaving them behind.

    From sunup to sundown they spend their time pouring wet mud into molds, lugging them to the kiln, firing them and then pulling them out. For their backbreaking work, they do not receive wages.

    They are working to pay off a debt.

    In India they are known as bonded laborers, bound to those who gave them or their forefathers an advance or a loan. Human rights advocates call them modern day slaves.

    “I cannot leave here unless I pay my debt,” said Durgawati, a mother of three.

    A contractor had approached Durgawati and her husband, offering them work in a far-off village. He had said there were plenty of opportunities and offered to pay an advance to prove it. Desperate to make a living and with no work in sight where they lived, they leapt at the chance and took the 1000-rupee ($22) advance, she said.

    The contractor found them work, but now, the family said they were trapped.

    “I have to make a thousand bricks per day,” Durgawati said. “It’s the most difficult thing. We are given big pieces of soil, then we have to break it. Then we make it into a dough. Then we knead the soil.”

    She and her husband aren’t the only ones in the family working. Their eldest daughter is nearly as fast as the adults at molding the earth into bricks. She is just five years old.

    The family said they have not received wages since arriving three months ago. None of them has any idea how much they are owed. They said they have never been shown a balance sheet and couldn’t read it anyway. They are illiterate and desperate to make a living.

    They do get a small food allowance but say it barely feeds them. Still, the family wouldn’t dare leave the worksite that doubles as their living quarters.

    “They will beat me if I try to leave,” Durgawati said.

    Dozens of families are in the same predicament. They are all oblivious to the fact that bonded labor is illegal in India. The legislation has been in place for decades, but enforcement is lax.

    “They have to work and repay the loan. They keep working,” said Arun Singh, their supervisor. “We have an agreement.”

    Workers hand bricks to another at a kiln in Uttar Pradesh, India.
    He acknowledged that children are also working on the site, which would be a breach of India’s child labor laws, even though he insists otherwise.

    “Kids are working here for food. They need food. If they can’t fill their stomachs, they need to work,” Singh said.

    Singh also asked CNN to pay for the interview. “Madam I charge, you pay me something,” he said to no avail.

    In another village, people have lived in bonded labor for generations.

    “They remain in slavery forever,” said Supriya Awasthi, South Asia director of Free the Slaves, a non-governmental organization dedicated to eradicating slavery around the world. “There are 27 million people around the world who are in slavery, and [the] maximum…live in India,” she said.

    According to estimates by policymakers, activists and scholars, the number of modern day slaves ranges from about 10 million to 30 million.

    In the village of Dhomanpur a woman applied turmeric paste on the swollen foot of her husband, who said he had injured it when trying to get a cow off a truck for the landowner he works for.

    “Even when I’m hurt or sick they call me to work. You won’t believe how many atrocities I have to go through in a day,” said Kharban Gagai, his leg hanging over his rope bed. The couple lives in a mud hut in a village owned by the landowner.

    “When my father was alive he took an 8000-rupee ($175) loan from the landowner. Since that time I am having to work day and night for him,” Gagai said, adding that he has never been paid.

    His father’s debt changed his life. No matter who in the family borrowed money, that debt became his debt, Gagai said.

    Before his work injury, Gagai said he tried to escape several times but was always found and brought back.

    There are no physical signs the villagers are living in bondage: no chains, fences or armed guards, but the villagers say they are all slaves just the same.

    “If I don’t work, they will beat me. They will abuse my daughter,” said Lalti, a mother of seven. “If you don’t give in, they will sell your daughter or son.”

    Lalti said she had to borrow money from the landowner to treat her husband’s tuberculosis years ago, and now she can’t come and go as she pleases.

    “I am an illiterate, so how would I know how much we owe, and what’s left to pay? I don’t even know how much we had taken. It’s been many years.”

    As payment for work, she and her neighbors receive leftover food or bags of grain, Lalti said. They are beholden to the man who owns the land they live on.

    None of them had heard of the Indian law that made bonded labor illegal more than 30 years ago.

    “People in modern day slavery have no idea they can ever access any kind of rights,” said Awasthi of Free the Slaves.

    Lalti hopes she is able to work long enough so her children will be freed from the loan that binds her family to the land and a hard life.

    “The day I pay my debt I will be free. We’ll be prosperous,” Lalti said

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Shan

    The latest Economist has two articles on subjects that were discussed in the last blog.
    There is an article on Tata company; as to this is the model of excellent global companies of the future.

    Of course, the other article is about Muslims, esp Pakistani and Bangla Deshi…concurring what Dr Mishra ad you and Balwindrer remarked in the last blog. “pakistani muslims are clustered in wards such as manningham….population expands thru plentiful babies immigrant wives produce…most of the preaching in mosques is in urdu…the segregation of britain’s Pakistani and bangla deshi communities is indeed concerning as is for Germany’s Turks and France’ss North africans…… ‘

    It is interesting that Indians also migrated in equal numbers and there was no single mention about their second generation being marginalized or ghettoized or whatever….those da..n Brahmins.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    SO HEGDE U SAY THAT we ARE BETTER SLAVE THAN PAKIS AND BANGLADESHIS.dont forget that bagladeshis and pakis(except)were 50 years backward than people of that area.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mughals ruled upto lahore and south was under muslim control that is why people were more educated and enlightened.bangladesh was colony of west bengal.sindh had no university till 1950.school education was monopoly of hindus,forget about balochistan or frntier.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram, stop your business of blaming others business. Own up, fix, and move on.

    it is bad all across the Muslim world except few spots liek trurkey, indomnesia..reasons are self evident. hindus were not there to suppress them.

    Get a life.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr hegde,

    ताज़ा आंकड़ों के अनुसार दुनिया भर के पोलियो के 42 फ़ीसदी, क्षयरोग के 23 फ़ीसदी, कुष्ठरोग के 54 प्रतिशत, काली खांसी के 86 फ़ीसदी और मलेरिया के 55 प्रतिशत पीड़ित भारत में बसते

    syed Reply:

    @Mishrajee,
    The blog is getting intresting.. I have seen life from very close in India by dint of having worked as a volunteer in different capacities and places. To answer in brief..

    1) Islamist violence never existed in India prior to babri masjid demolition. sure there used to be frequent riots (most were politically supported as I have mentioned earlier) but no bomb blasts. The mumbai bomb blasts were done by Dawood Ibrahim, not because of the Babri masjid issue but in retaliation to the Shiv sena systematically looting down all his businesses step by step.
    2) Kashmir is so mainly bcoz of Pak. Recently Pak has stoppd its support in Kashmir and the result- Terrorist violence is zero and the Indian Govt. is thinking of reducing troops there.
    3) Reg. Advani- A man is known by what he does, not by what he thinks.

    My take on the Babri Masjid Issue:
    The Babri Masjid was built by Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim over the ruins of an old hindu temple. NO Shia in India has EVER destroyed ANY place of worship..period. In India Shias have actually built many temples.

    And finally.. No structure is as important as a human life!

    raj Reply:

    @syed, just because bombs were not used you cannot say, no islamist violence did not exists.
    a train was burnt, not bombed, so you call it riots, nothing to do with islamist violence.
    how many you want to whitewash.

    The Babri Masjid was built by Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim over the ruins of an old hindu temple.
    – can he not find a bigger & better location, than an hindu temple ruins. ?

    In India Shias have actually built many temples.
    – then he could hv rebuilt this temple, rather than building a mosque, if shia are so benovelent.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    The Babri Masjid was built by Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim over the ruins of an old hindu temple
    it is lie .in ayodhya budhhdist temples were forcibly converted to shiv temple when buhdhdist lost.

    plinth of babri masjid was prepared by ibrahim lodhi later mosque was completed by mir baqi on instruction of baber.
    in 1880 a brhmn judge of ayodhya passed judgement giving mosque to muslims and ramchabutra to nirmohi akhada.
    local priests are with muslims.they are living side side from hundreds of years.it is only vhp/rss goons who are destroying peace and bussines of ayodhya.they are hated by local hindus as well.

    what ayodhya need is sree ram hospital,sree ram clean water supply,sree ram sewarage plant.in one compound make 20 temples 2 mosque one gurudwara and ond church.those who come from delhi or punjab or gujrat to hurt the population and divide india,must be shot to death on spot.MAYAWATI CAN DO THIS IF HIS BRHMN ALLY ALLOW HER.indian youth want employment.nothing else.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Syed,

    How should one differentiate between Islamist violence and riots? Where should we put Moplah then? To me riots always come with violence. Tools used (bombs or AK 47) just denotes sophistication.

    Kashmir problem triggered because of Pak provocation. Local unemployment and inefficient governance added the fodder. But a presumption that it got nurtured without Jihadic ideologies is a pretence. If everything is coming back to normal after Pak stopped supporting Kashmir, then rehabilitation of Kashmir Pandits should have taken no time.

    Agree with your opinion on Advani. It includes even Vajpayee. They knew what was happening, no need of pretence/mourning later. People like Uma Bharati at least did not pretend. They said they were responsible for demolition. Advani/Vajpayee wanted the rose (power) without the thorn.

    “Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim. NO Shia in India has EVER destroyed ANY place of worship.”
    Agree with Raj here. If I want to support the “raw sewage of hell caste”, I will mention how a Brahmin teacher helped Ambedkar when he was even refused by a barber to cut his hair. I would not go defending Manu and Manu Smriti as secular. People of my state are always indebted to the works and scientific vision of Diwan Mirza Ismail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ismail), who was a Shia Muslim with Persian origin. Baba Budan Giri a Sufi shrine is worshipped equally by Hindus and Muslims. We don’t need to recognise Islam by considering Mir Baqi or Aurangzeb to be secular. We can do without these examples too.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    even sunni muslim too never destroyed any temple.brhmns and rajputs were ally of moghuls.it was not practically possible.few were looted by outsiders with the help of local competing brhmns.

    Vinay Reply:

    Ok Ram, temple was not destroyed by Shias, it was not destoryed by Sunnis. It was all Brahmin conspiracy.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    VINAY MOPLAH WAS MUSLIM REVOLT AGAINST BRITISHERS.NAIR JOINED BRITISHERS TO CRUSH THE REVOLT.IT WA NOT COMMUNAL.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Ok Ram, temple was not destroyed by Shias, it was not destoryed by Sunnis. It was all Brahmin conspiracy.

    truth is this that there was no temple.otherwise tulsidas would have written about this somewhere.they are liars and crooks.india has many problems they kept india on foot for years on this non-issue.even today there is no ram temple in ayodhya.mishrajee will be knowing about this more than me.ram is worshipped through hanuman.YOU KNOW THE REASON.IF U DONT KNOW VINAY ,TELL ME I WILL TELL U.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    underneath mosque was iranian structure.not temple.modi has demolished hundres of roadside temples .now mumbai goverment has announced for demolition of many illegal
    temples.
    ayodhya was budhhdist city with nameSAKET NAGI.actually vedics have destroyed their or occupied their temples.made shiv temple.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, for a starter, I dont think much of ECONOMIST, classical english arrogance and know all attituide with a fair deal of imperial arrogance, and recent english sloppiness. It is also in equal measure a reactionary and right wing paper (thus so endearing to Ashish).I much like the FOREIGN AFFAIRS, journal.
    Now coming to Tatas , and all that praise , well it is natural isn’t it. Economist is a British well English magazine ,and Tatas have Tetley Tea , Corus (British Steel) , and jaguar Land Rover.
    The thing about Tatas is that they treat the GORA managers with deference , THIS HAS ELECTRIFIED THE MANAGEMENT, previously the class system or otherwise meant the management was treated like dirt by the BOARD.The workers still harbour deep prejudice against brown owners , and will not spare a chance to create trouble. having said that JLR is doing incredible business , FORD LOOKS LIKE AN ***, because everything about those cars is joint effort of FORD and its then subsidiary VOLVO. It sold it during the downturn , now that the market has picked up it is doing massive business, HOW MUCH IS TATA ‘S IN HOUSE TECHNOLOGY HERE.it will be judged in ten years time when the next model comes up.

    Next is pakistani and bangladeshi, what you write is generally true. but Indians also live in ghettos but affluent ghettos , like leicester(Gujus) southall(Sandhus) Coventry(sandhus)
    North london ie , harrorw, wembley, alperton, kingsbury queensbury (all gujus)
    There is no denying ISLAM IS ONE AND THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON FOR THEIR LAGGARDNESS,others are THEY ARE FROM MUCH LOWER SOCIO ECONOMIC STRATA THAN THE GUJUS , BUT NOT THE SIKHS.
    And these are such pig heads that I see only trouble in the future, RECENTLY ONE BEARDED BANGLADESHI has been convicted for burning poppies(as you knowpeople here wear fake poppies on 11th nov ,rememberance day in respect for fallen soldiers)
    I do not support the conviction , because if danish cartoon is okay then this should be allowed,
    BUT THEY ARE JUST DIGGING THEIR AND EVERY OTHER BROWN PEOPLE’S GRAVE .
    and this attitude may be the reason WHY THEY WILL REPLACE BLACKS AS THE PERPETUAL UNDERDOGS and fringe of society. Contrast this with SIKHS , they all vote CONSERVATIVE PARTY, its like all blacks voting republican in America.The Hindus vote Labour which is like your Democrats in America.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ISLAM IS ONE AND THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON FOR THEIR LAGGARDNESS,others are THEY ARE FROM MUCH LOWER SOCIO ECONOMIC STRATA THAN THE GUJUS , BUT NOT THE SIKHS

    because of virtues of islam 100000 americans are converting every year.u are ahead because u supported british imperialism and helped the enslavement of india.but u are 2-3%of hindu society.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Balwinder,

    “Some ‘giants’ of the post colonial setup like Sultan Qaboos of Oman and King Hussein of Jordan, have however maintained the middle path, and chugged along without much publicity and done a lot of good for their country”

    How do we know? Till we saw people of Tunisia coming on streets, we were never aware of any revolution. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-middle-east-12616457 It will be of a concern considering the Indian population working in Saudi. Is Indian government anticipating and preparing itself if similar thing happens there? There are no civil rights in those countries for Indians unlike democratic countries like UK/US. Reactions of UK natives towards the Britons returning from Libya is not soft. They are asking when there is no money to run hospitals, schools, why should the government help the oil workers in Libya who made vast profits and did not pay any tax to UK. Difficult to guess Indian reaction. On one side, we(Indians) have more concern to our society members. On the other side, Indian attitude is always to pull down others. As far as I am aware, Keralites from Gulf have tried to show off their wealth in front of locals. Would like to know from Gopi, what is the locals reaction right now on the middle east proceedings. What is more worrysome, young girls wearing Burkhas, some Kerala boys going to LeT camps or mass unemployment? But one thing for sure. If middle east becomes democratic, it can solve Palestine in no time. Just stop selling oil for a week (no need for young boys to explode bomb anywhere). Not just US, whole world will recognise Palestine problem and force Israel to stop settlements.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    dont worry of saudia.they know how to control them.in saudia every body has food and house.king has declared 37.5.billion dollars gift their subject.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    The middle east issue has not hit the “news cycle” so far. Part of the reason may be that majority of gulf Keralites work in UAE, Quatar, Saudi arabia ,Oman and Kuwait which are relatively trouble-free. Oman, I understand, has a “soft” trouble, not a hrd core issue. Looks like that Sulatan has been able e to turn around the situation there and forcing people to state “what can i do for the country, now that the Sultan has done so much” Clever indeed. .

    “Showing off” has gone down significantly, i fact for the last so many years, because liberalization has produced quite a lot of wealth here too. so, the expatriates cannot do a one upmanship any more. Now, the new wealthy are showing off!

    Now the assembly elections are here, no major party is talking aboput the Islamic terrorism because of the decisive voting influence Muslims has. The Muslim League is embroiled in “ice cream parlour women case” , in which Kunjali Kutty, Muslim l;eague cjhairman was involved in a sex racket. The case was supposedly settled seven years ago; now it has come up again because Kunjali kutty’s brother-in-law , Rauf has come up with statements that Kunjali Kutty asked him to pay off judges and DSP. The attack on Muslim League (politically moderate group) is coming from the extremists among Muslims (PDP, NDF, SDPI etc).,

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Gopi,
    It is a bit of embarrassment to our democracy, how elections are still fought over below the belt attacks or emotional slogans over real developmental plans/schemes. If someone is at faul(be it sex racket or anything), let him go to jail. But this issue alone can’t direct a state’s development. No one discusses about a development plan. Same thing in Karnataka; Yeddyurappa’s relationship with a minister, Kumaraswamy’s (Devegowda’s) son’s second marriage, whether Rahul Gandhi is a gay – all these issues cannot decide the fate of a state/country. For ages, parties in India are winning with emotional slogans. “Garibi Hatao”, “Mandir Wahi Banayenge”, “Free electricity”. For the first time (2004) Chandra Babu Naidu (AP) tried to face Rajshekhar Reddy’s “2 Rs Rice” just with his developmental work but failed. But I feel, tides are changing now. If emotion was the main factor, Gujarat or Bihar would not have elected Modi or Nitish. Both did not promise any magic. Bihar would not have gone against Lalu, who provided them security during Rathyatra time. Even in West Bengal, though communists have provided a secured, non-corrupt (a record for not being corrupt for longest time in India goes to them), still people are discontended as there are no developmental works/employment. Slowly people are coming out of emotional comfort and singing Pepsi Mantra, Yeh Dil Mange More.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @Vinay, you are right that we may not know the inside story about Sultan Qaboos of Oman and King Hussein of Jordan. One goes by what one reads in reputed journals.
    But in the case of Oman, there are many first hand reports from tens of thousands of Indians working there. The Sultan thinks like an Indian, ie, self sufficiency. He has started training a whole generation of youngsters 15 years ago so that dependence on foreign doctors and engineers vanishes. He concentrates on tourism at the high end of the market (no boozy brits here hehe) and there is moderation in ISLAMIC VALUES by arab standards.
    Sometimes, even then, people are restless and want a change. The change may not be what you wanted, ie Khomeini in Iran lol so be careful wot u ask for !!!

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Does it matter how many thousands of Indians are working in Gulf, when none of them have citizenship? (Thereby, no rights). The revolutionaries are not bothered about king himself. Do they care whom Sultan liked?

    As far as Khomeini, if it is “their choice”, I don’t want to interfere with their business. Where they want to take their nation is up to them. We can express our opinions whether their experiment with religious democracy can be a success or a failure. But we can’t question their right to experiment (which is what US keeps doing). It is easy to be neutral in the cases of Iran, Egypt. But when Indians are involved, we hope for a liberal country! I am bothered about Saudi mainly because of the number of Indians working there.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Does it matter how many thousands of Indians are working in Gulf, when none of them have citizenship
    to have 2 meals a day is basic right of the man.gulf countries provide them,which india dont.nobody want their passport.they want money for their family back in india.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ram,
    You did not understand what I tried to say. Agree with you, those countries provide 2 meals a day which India couldn’t. As long as they are provided with their meals they might never bother about passport in their entire life. But my concern was, if those country people decide against Indians stay (which may or may not happen, just like the revolution), they will have to return over night even if they are one third of population.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mr vinay they know that are guest workers and they are 6 times the population of locals.everybody knows that they have to return.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ram
    That is the difference between the democratic nations and rest. A person, who contributes to the economy of a country legally for so long will not be treated anymore as guest by democracies. He gets the right of a native.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    @bENOY hEGDE- Thanks, keep us posted on Rep Kings work. If done well, it will be a big investment in the future. Maybe, he is required more in the UK, there have been several schemes here, with huge funding, which have had mixed results, maybe more on the counter productive side.

    @Syed bhai- very interesting insight- no Shia ever destroyed a temple in India, must look that up. Is it because Shias are a minority in muslims, and also a bit persecuted themselves, and therefore less prone to cruelty against another minority. ??
    @ram, my head spins if I read too much about Godhra. The 0.1% possibility that it was an accident is gut wrenching, and I would leave it to the judiciary to decide. Javed Naqvi is too rabidly anti Indian in his writings on Dawn which I have read for the last 5 years, his blinkered approach is disgusting.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    MISHRAJEE ,
    thsi depicts how innocents were implicated by gujrat police.

    mishrajee can u name one important /unimportant temple demolished by sunni muslim.
    brhmns were c`losest ally of mughal.being doctor u can seprate truth from propaganda.
    few of them were looted by outsiders.so the peshwas of poona also looted shankaracharya temple ,whenever in need of money.

    king is saying something general nothing particular.without any proof.society is mosaic it has all type of people.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, mishrajee can u name one important /unimportant temple demolished by sunni muslim.

    don’t twist , shia sunni & confuse. mughal emperors are sunni islam & we are aware of damages they did, so stop whitewashing their crimes.

    what do you mean by important / unimportant temples. who are you to judege it for hindus ?

    —- one waste/disused/ruin of mosque created tremors in india when it was demolished.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    don’t twist , shia sunni & confuse. mughal emperors are sunni islam & we are aware of damages they did, so stop whitewashing their crimes

    they built india with the help of brhmns and rajputs.they were basically ruler first and muslim second.

    shan Reply:

    Guys , this blog should be renamed , I AM RAM AUTAR , AND I WILL WRITE ****,

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    come on ram, this is getting ridiculous. One should forget and move on, but forced conversions and destrustion of temples were a staple diet for many Islamic invaders- from Ghazni, Ghouri to Aurangzeb.
    Look up what Jehangir did to one of our Sikh gurus- it was death by torture- burning- too depressing to recount. You totally lose yr objectivity at times

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    And let us not forget the murder of Guru Gobind’s father and sons…

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    the main supporter of guru govind singh was pir budhhdu shah,a muslim..hundreds of pathans were in his army.it was war for land&supermacy not religion.britishers commualize this rss spread this.guru gobind also killed thousands of his opponents mainly hindus.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram, for whom the bell tolls…

    why do u have to defend muslims always… some of thenm were bad and are bad.. so also in other groups..u dont have to always do a justification with examples on other side…

    the fact is that guru gobind singh father and sons were killed by muslims irrespective of whether he had muslim followers and friends.

    The fact is that Muslims caused 9/11, whether I have Muslim friends or not…Get it into ur thick head

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    the fact is that guru gobind singh father and sons were killed by muslims irrespective of whether he had muslim followers and friends

    they were not killed by muslims they were killed by competing ruler who also killed thousands of muslims for the same reason.bijapur and golcunda was`the most glittering empire of south,demolished by aurangzeb for same reasom.sambha jee the son of shivajee was killed by brhmns.aurangzebs own son continued the fight against his father even after death of sambhajee.
    why u commualize the problem.this was war of rajas.
    9/11 was zoinist conspiracy.there was implosion bombs were`planted before plane hit the building.where` are the dead bodies of passengers.when fire fighters reached within 15 minutes.
    why no jew in death list.
    this act was perpetuated by godless neocons to rob the natural resources of muslims countries.as they knew the true position of their economy.

    trainer of ossama was cia agent.he is still out.benoy why should i accept ur bullshit.when i know it is wrong.750 top american intellectuals have signed a letter confirming that 9/11 was inside job.
    i dont support even my brother if he is wrong but cannot accept wrong blames.u show everything as if muslim and hindus were enemies.while they were friends till hindu zoinist trained by international zoinist started spreading hatred in subcontinent. and divided subcontinent.this they do everywhere not only in india.in rwanda there was no muslim.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    gouri and ghazni were brought by competing brhmns to loot the temples.they had commission.both have taken thousand of indians to built their cities.
    tell me the name of one temple he demolished.all glittering temples of chitra koot were built on his order and and financial support.all dhans of shankaracharyas were built during his period.
    britishers demonised the indian rulers.his cnc was rajput and .had 36.5 %non-muslim ministers.he sacrificed his life fighting for unity and integrity of india.
    land for golden temple was also donated by muslims.it foundation stone was laid by a muslim fakir from lahore.upto 1947 all reciters were punjabi muslims.

    Look up what Jehangir did to one of our Sikh gurus- it was death by torture- burning- too depressing to recount. You totally lose yr objectivity at times

    this guru lost his life because of chandu khatri of lahore.then pm of india.he had some family problem with him.i think he took the revenge for refusing inter-family marriage..the whole game was political not religious.

    ahmad shah abdali demolished many religious structures but he was foriegner.u people were also doing the same.those were the savage days.

    u have read how gurat police made false case against innocents.same technique was used to demonize muslims as community.culturally u are close to hindus but religiously sikhism is more close to islam.

    ram autar Reply:

    iran of khomeini is far ahead in education than u think.60%of university students are girls.have locally manufactured super missiles an dronesindia owe them 2 billion dollars.all middle east states are spending huge amount on education.in libya education even higher is totally free and 10%of the studentsa are sent to foriegn universities at goverment expenses.any patient has the right to go to foriegn hospitals if local hospitals are not capable.in uae expenses on cancer and open heart surgery for every citizen including foriegner is paid by sheikh.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ram, I never disagreed with education level in Iran or girls in University. I have always said, it is better than the rest of the middle east with rulers. Difference is, I don’t consider middle east to be a heaven, the way you narrate.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    go to internet or check with their embassy.u will find i am right.they had make their own nuclear water ,super missiles and drones.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    it is not heaven at all.but better than other places for workers.they can live with honesty make a house in india and send their childrens to the best schools of india.iran is restricted worst place in middle east to live.abudhabi the best.i am talking of workforce.bussines community better in india.any type of fraud or embezzlement is MAAF.
    MOST IMPORTANT IS SECURITY OF LIFE.

  • Vinay

    I was confused, whether to post this reply under Gautam’s blog or Zia’s. But as my comments were towards Zia’s headings, I am posting it here.

    Gautam’s post’s titles “Despots don’t have a religion”. He writes, “We need to recognise dictators for who they are — individual despots, not religious leaders.”
    Last post of Zia had the heading “The pharaoh’s last sigh; what it means for Islam”. If the regime change has nothing to do with Islam, instead people of THAT COUNTRY (and the capitalists who trade oil with that country), then how does this become an Islamic issue?

    The current post of Zia deals with Jamia getting minority status. (If I remember, it is the second article Zia has posted on this institute). It says, “In a judgement minorities called historic, a court last week declared Delhi’s Jamia Milia Islamia as a minority institution.”
    How and why this becomes a landmark decision? How does it going to (or even begin to) change the minority people’s life (when intake is more or less being same)? If someone had opened primary schools offering vocational courses in poor Muslim areas, that would have made more difference to their life.

    50% quota will not make it religious, it can still be secular; Even if we agree to that, it still does not explain the necessity for asking minority status. (“It does no harm”, will not explain the advantage). If the decision doesn’t have any specific advantages or disadvantages to a community, then it should have been treated just as a private (management) issue. Why should it be discussed as a Muslim issue? (In south India, there are lot of Mutts in every caste, which run engineering and medical colleges. They don’t have “minority status” issue, but every year they fight with government to get more management quota). No one treats it as the community problem or Hindu problem. Then why Jamia’s judgement becomes Muslim’s issue? Should we conclude, anything related to any muslim becomes a muslim issue? It’s really a wrong message to send to others who brand even underworld activities as Islamic terror.

    In the previous blog Rizwan wrote, “We muslims have opinions on various issues like any Agarwals, Sharmas..” Would agree. (When are we going to have a collective term instead of majority/minority? Every community taken out from the rest of the society is a minority. Uniform civil code please). I am presenting my observation of two blogs in HT. Varghese George’s blog has a title “To the point” and discuss the issues of telecom scam, Binayak sen and BJPs minority appeasement (recent posts). Zia’s blog titles “They call me muslim” and the recent posts have dealt with Delhi’s Jamia’s conversion to minority institution and what middle east revolution means for Islam. Who stereotypes muslims? (But will agree, controversial write ups are more popular with us :-) )

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    Very good analysis..

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Syed bhai, liked your comment expressing disquiet at the burka. Here in UK, after decades of political correctness (called minority appeasement in India) we have all been conditioned to give standard replies, ie, burka, hijab, jilbab etc are a matter of choice etc.
    So very refreshing to hear a modern Indian muslims take on this- to say that in your time it was a rare woman, usually on the wrong side of 60, who wore it. In a fiercely competitive society, certain symbols are considered regressive and also as Jack Straw said- a mark of separation.
    But then I am equally uncomfortable at the French approach- banning the face veil in public. I dont oppose it, just very uneasy about it. Dr Mishra, UK and India

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    standard replies, ie, burka, hijab, jilbab etc are a matter of choice etc

    tommorow they will ask for tuban of sikhs or sari of an indian lady.matter of choice is right arguments.
    in france only 30 ladies wear burka.what is the problem.european ladies wear dress of their choice all over the world.why sarkozy is passing a law against them.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Ram bhai, as an Indian muslim your conduct and utterances must not be seen to be disloyal. Constructive criticism with suggestions for improvement is one thing, but going on and on about the dreadful poverty in some parts of India is another. This poverty has existed for long, is much better now, and certainly we can look back at the Bengal famine in 1940s (2 million dead ?) and say we have travelled a long way.
    Similarly, overpraising the Arab countries for their education and health facilities is vacuous, for oil has given them billions of dollars for a few million population. Mera bharat mahaan tab hoga when everyone does their bit, cannot have muslims like you sulking or sniggering on one side. Tumhe apna samajh ke yeh baat kahi

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Similarly, overpraising the Arab countries for their education and health facilities is vacuous, for oil has given them billions of dollars for a few million population. Mera bharat mahaan tab hoga when everyone does their bit, cannot have muslims like you sulking or sniggering on one side. Tumhe apna samajh ke yeh baat kahi

    doctor saheb i respect ur views.i praise arabs not for money but their behaviour with weaker and haves not.another thing is their laws.another which is most important is their respect for indians and india.around 10 million indians working in arab countries,no one wants to go back to india because of them.when they respect us why we abuse them.many bloggers has no work except to say bad words about them.i want our youths to go there make money and improve their future generation.
    india and indian can do lot here especially when clouds of depresions have started spreading
    over the west.all their wealth is controlled by illuminaties.many of my friends did not come to this area because of this propaganda. that is why i praise these people.nothing is exegrated.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Ram bhai, as an Indian muslim your conduct and utterances must not be seen to be disloyal. Constructive criticism with suggestions for improvement is one thing, but going on and on about the dreadful poverty in some parts of India is another. This poverty has existed for long, is much better now, and certainly we can look back at the Bengal famine in 1940s (2 million dead ?) and say we have travelled a long way

    yesterday it was published in newspapers.regarding famine of 1942.it was man made.grains was available in silo but population was forced to starve.after britishers left situation is better or worse i dont know still lacs of people are commiting suicides.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Shan
    Reg: Bengali muslims & Arab democracy

    To keep a long story short…
    In the 1980s and later, due to the strength of a communal group of politicians within the congress party, there were recurring riots in many parts of India (Moradabad, Meerut, Ahmedabad etc. etc.) which used to go on for months! As I have mentioned earlier, no riot can go on for more than a day unless there is active administrative/political support. These riots vitiated the hindu-muslim atmosphere in most of north/west india. However in Bengal the CPM, did not allow such riots to take place which is one of the main reasons why bengal has been free from many issues.

    Reg Arabs I think Islam is much more important for pppl there than in India. Which is the reason why I do not expect them to become secular democracies very soon.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    syed u are saying that riot continued long period in north india.then u say for arabs religion is very importatnt.tell which regime claims to be islamic.their kingdomships are better than democracies.what common man wants is security and good salary.democracy in india or america is for rich and to empower rich.arab society is secular.servant and owner eat in the same plate
    supreme court has not taken notice of the man who has spent 55million dollars on the marriage of his daughter.only weaks are caught.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    – sombondy mentioned about family planning,
    but in india, muslim hv to fight with religious groups.hope they win & jamait is put in its place.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-intellectuals-oppose-Jamiats-condom-diktat/articleshow/7655700.cms

    The effort to popularise condoms and contraceptive pills is in many ways the brainchild of companies manufacturing them. In some ways, we’re being subjected to commercial interests that seek to erode our age-old values across religions.
    — there was no mention muslims to hv limited family & go for family planning….

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    nobody listen to jamait or their fatwas.middle class has same no.of child.JAMAT KA KATWA AUR BALA SAHEB DEVRAS KEE ADVISE HAI.

    seek to erode our age-old values across religions

    RAJ ARE U SERIOUS.

    islam as religion cannot be finished.while political trading of islam is rejected by muslims.jamat e-islami could not get more than 3%votes in elections.in egypt muslim brotherhood has completely lost the grip on people.i hope indian masses will also follow this.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, nobody listen to jamait or their fatwas

    same as shiv sena against various things, but at that time your tune is different, & want to make a mountain out of mole hill.
    but in this case you just wish it away.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raj bhai shiv sena is maratha racialist party.party o fmaratha backwards.but sangh parivar has 33%vote share rules many states. SS rules a state.jamait could not reach even near to corridors of power.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @Mishrajee, lovely riposte to ramavtar-ashamed-to-be-indian. I notice he has not responded.
    @syed- excellent recollection about hindu muslim riots in Meerut etc.
    For a prolonged riot to take place, the following conditions have to be satisfied-
    1. A pre-existing enmity.
    2. A weak leadership in govt (doesent affect me, so I will ignore it, it will blow over)
    3. A police force that lacks resources, or lacks the will
    4. A weak leadership in community, including religious leaders

    Apply this to any riot in India and see what I mean. Which of these 4 apply in India today, specifically in Kerala which is seeing a rise in Muslim terror ?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Balwinder-

    None of these conditions exist in Kerala. Actually, Kerala never had riots (except the Marad incident when AK Antony was the CM; and he really came against “the uncontrolled minority rights, and non-existant majority rights” (on which he was fired by the Party)); but several Muslim boys have been arrested in connection with terrorist activities. These activities included fighting in Kashmir with LeT (five Keralite Muslims were killed in Kashmir ), Bangalore and other explosions, Coimbatore explosion, etc and the “hand chopping” of the Christian professor. The “Indian commander” of LeT is a keralite Muslim . The latest incident (although these bombs were not used) involved the deaths of six young Muslims while the bombs they were making exploded accidentally.

    The genesis of kerala terrorism is in the appeasement of Muslims. It started with the communist government, granting the first (and may be the only ) “Muslim district” in india, Malappuram in early sixties by the EMS Namboodiripad govt. Muslim League and Muslim votes were crucial for winning makjority seats; both congress and communists went on looking the other way. Pensions for private Arabic school teachers (but not Sanskrit), Arabic elocution competition in state youth festival, inclusion of Muslim folk dance in the youth festival competition were the non-lethal part of this appeasement. The “lethal” parts included the promotion of extremist Muslims by Marxists to peel off the Muslim votes away from Muslim League/Congress, hailing Abdus Samad Madani as a patriot (before the latest round of evidence that he and his wife supported the Kashmir “freedom” fighters from Kerala and had conversation with LeT honchos)..Both Congress and Communists knew that Pakistani agents and money were coming into the state using the “democratic” connections of Muslim league (knowingly or unknowingly to them).

    Appeasement is so pervasive that Kerala was the ONLY state where ALL (the 133 ) MLAs in the state assembly unanimously passed a resolution to enact a substitute mosque at the destroyed Babri Masjid site.

    Now with the revelations and extent of Islamic terrorism with which the neighbours are involved in, things have slightly changed. Both the major parties have started saying that extremists have to be dealt with (then they always add Hindu extremists to that statement; although BJP/RSS is non-existent in the state). Both have started distancing from the Madani camp (PDP/NDF/SDPI). Marxists were routed in the last parliamentary and panchatyat elections partly because of their closeness to the extremist muslim parties.

    Kerala, where BJP and RSS were never a player, may get theiir first BJP assembly seat in this upcoming election, mainly because Muslims and Muslim parties have pushed many to that.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    BJP youth workers thrash professor with sandals
    NDTV Correspondent, Updated: March 09, 2011 19:11 IST

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    Khandhwa, Madhya Pradesh: A professor in Madhya Pradesh was dragged out of his classroom and attacked by members of the BJP’s student party, the ABVP.

    Hours later, unrepentant, after a police case has been registered against three ABVP workers and 50 others who were with them, they say the teacher deserved it.

    “Choudhary sir used to sexually exploit students … that is why we took this step,” says Rohit Mishra, who is in charge of the ABVP in this part of Madhya Pradesh.

    The principal of the college, PC Shastri, denies that there have been any complaints against Professor Ashok Choudhary.

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    The teacher was in the midst of a class at the Government College when the mob of ABVP supporters stormed in and forced him outside. They smeared black ink on his face, then beat him relentlessly.

    Professor Choudhary ran to the Principal’s office for help. But a woman from the ABVP barged in there, and hit the professor with her sandals.

    Nobody has been arrested so far.

    In 2006, Professor H S Sabharwal was assaulted at his campus in Ujjain, allegedly by ABVP workers, who were upset with his attempt to check cheating in student union elections. He died in hospital. ABVP members were tried for his murder but were acquitted in 2009.

    bjp is mentl state it is not party.like taliban.in kerala they are very powerfull but highcaste supports cpm so they are not able to win election.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    BJP youth workers thrash professor with sandals
    NDTV Correspondent, Updated: March 09, 2011 19:11 IST

    The teacher was in the midst of a class at the Government College when the mob of ABVP supporters stormed in and forced him outside. They smeared black ink on his face, then beat him relentlessly.

    Professor Choudhary ran to the Principal’s office for help. But a woman from the ABVP barged in there, and hit the professor with her sandals.

    Nobody has been arrested so far.

    In 2006, Professor H S Sabharwal was assaulted at his campus in Ujjain, allegedly by ABVP workers, who were upset with his attempt to check cheating in student union elections. He died in hospital. ABVP members were tried for his murder but were acquitted in 2009.

    BJP IS NOT PARTY IT IS MENTAL STATE LIK E TALIBAN.THEY ARE VERY POWERFULL.BUT HIGH SUPPORT IS CPM BECAUSE OF 25%MUSLIM POPULATION HENCE THEY ARE ABLE TO WIN ELECTIONS.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Appeasement is so pervasive that Kerala was the ONLY state where ALL (the 133 ) MLAs in the state assembly unanimously passed a resolution to enact a substitute mosque at the destroyed Babri Masjid site

    this was instruction of supreme court as well.this is wishes of 80%keralites too.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder bhai i was i will awnser soon mishrajee has some misgivings.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    in Kerala which is seeing a rise in Muslim terror

    HOW U REACH TO THIS CONCLUSION.ON BASIS OF SOME MEDIA REPORTS.INDSIDE ONLY HINDU EXIST.THEY ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO IS CHALLENGING STATE POWER AND PAID BY ILLUMINITY AND FREEMASONS.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Ram Autar, I wouldn’t get carried away by NDTV, APPARENTLY THE ABOVE PROF HAD MOLESTED A GIRL , IN THIS SINGLE OCCASION I AM WITH ABVP

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    MOLESTED A GIRL there is law for that ,beating teacher with shoe is not indian culture.killing principle can not be justified.indian judiciary has become a mockery.even murderers get away without any punishment.only few months after that incident DURGA VAHININi was caught in a park with his boyfriend in objectionable situation.nothing happened to her.claim may be wrong as well.just to twist the arm of principle.

    shan Reply:

    @ram Autar , nice to see you have become law abiding ,but as you know what ABVP did will act as a far better deterrent.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    @ram Autar , nice to see you have become law abiding ,but as you know what ABVP did will act as a far better deterrent

    girl can go to police.beating teacher in front of student.abvp is gang of gundaas and liars.cannot be trusted.it is they who rape women and burn infants alive during.cut the innocent men and women into pieces.how can we believe,what they are saying is right.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ram

    Kerala has seen many cases of islamic terror, triggered by followers of PDP/NDF?SDPI, all remnants of SIMI. Five Malayali Muslim boys were killed in KAshmir in terrorist raids three. Why are Kerala Mu8slim boys going to Kashmir? Five young Muslims were killed while the bombs theyw ere makming exploded. Why were they making bombs? T NAzeer is arrested, he was the ring leader of LeT in India; hiding in Dhaka, and he was expatriated to India (kerala/kArnataka cases). 25 plus youngsters are arrested on Nazeer’s information. Abdus MAdani, of copimbatore blast, is now in Karnataka in connection with Bangalore vlasts. .His wife’s communication with Nazzeer, and Kashmiri separatist leaders and pakistani citizens have been recorded. A whole treasure case of info has been uncovered in connection with the chopping incident . The state CM, not an RSS man, bnot a BJp man, an avowed corruption -free Marxist, mr Achuthanandan, stated in the assembly that the evidence uncovered clearly indicates the extremist Muslims’ plan to make Kerala an extremist muslim state through select progroms like the hand chopping incident.

    Tne latest is the info revealed by the brotehr in alw of kkunjali kutty. Info about ISI money flowing in to certain muslim eladers, and fake rupee bills printing by Pakistanis.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    gopi u are fabricating muslim terror.hindu zoinists and high caste church has joined hands with internationalilluminities and zoinism to destablize kerala being port city.exception happens everywhere.just magnifying them spreading hatred is ist step towards this dirty game.

  • syed

    @B Sandhu,
    “For a prolonged riot to take place, the following conditions have to be satisfied-
    1. A pre-existing enmity.
    2. A weak leadership in govt (doesent affect me, so I will ignore it, it will blow over)
    3. A police force that lacks resources, or lacks the will
    4. A weak leadership in community, including religious leaders”

    See, the ONLY reason for prolonged riots in India was because the political leadership wanted it. Else for example, why did prolonged riots take place in the 1980s in many places in Bihar but not in contagious areas of West Bengal state where the socio-economic conditions were the same??
    Incidentally can you guess why are there no prolonged riots now?

    In Bihar, the aggressive yadav castes used to spearhead the rioters. Lalu yadav simply roped in the muslims into his party by promising them that yadavs would not attack them. He kept his word. During his 15 year rule, there was not a single prolonged riot! This was the only thing muslims got in Bihar.. all the wealth went to yadav & his cronies.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    riots were organizedby bjp and congress both.after riot muslim will vote will go to congress while a section of highcaste hindu will become bjp follower.maal looted from muslim homes will be given to dalits and police.who will be thankfull to congress.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mishrajee,

    i will awnser ur point 3 about mosque.u know ayodhya was budhhdist city occupied by vedics after budhdhists were forced to leave india.
    nobody knew of lord in ayodhya till tulsidas wrote ramanaya.lord rama was born5000 yrs ago.ayodhya did not exist during that time.ayodhya became vibrant city during nawab period.rama was made popular by NAWAB WAJID ALI SHAH.he started ram leela.all lands to shiva temples was donated by him.in 1947 somebody put lord rama idols there.excavations has found iranian structure underneat.
    from 600 yrs namaz was going on there.on patwari papers.this crisis is because of politics.this is a non issue and we have wasted crores of ruppees and wasted many innocent lives.it is question of right.muslims are not fighting ,it is goverment and supreme court which is fighting.

    mathura too was buhdhdist place.they have similar claim on grand mosque of mathura.zoinists wants internal war between communities.it will end up in war between vaishnites and chaivites.

    kashmiris claim to be not a part of india.remaining indians are not involve in any tpe of terrorism.i can assure u.in india now hate mongering has no taker.people want peace.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    6. who started the riots

    riots were always preplanned with help of administration.media was paid to write what perpetuator want.
    riots are past ,since multinationals came this game died.this was more painful for muslims.being weak they will loose maximum.then they will get problem in getting jobs and
    accomodation.

    last year modi returned 10 crores given to bright muslim students to complete their studies.
    grant was returned by modi on some clumsy ground.this is the attitude of our rulers toward us

    raj Reply:

    you forgot
    cia, raw, m16, jewish, zionist, rss, & every thing other than islamist.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    also islamist.there are muslim zoinists as well.yeh sab ek hee thalee ke chathe bathe hain.help each other.islam is good but islamists are hated by muslims .they have no support among muslims.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    you forgot
    cia, raw, m16, jewish, zionist, rss, & every thing other than islamist

    raj bhai yeh sab ek hee kutiya ke pilley hain.

  • D Mishra, UK

    Thank you Syed, Vinay, Sandhu and Gopi. The disease of hindu-muslim riots, so venal, so demoralising. The northern aspects explained very well by Syed and the Keralite angle illuminated by Gopi.
    I had in the last blog started a thread which I did not followup-
    ’syed bhai- your comment- …..Terrorist attacks started in India in the aftermath of the destruction of the babri masjid….is very profound. I will confess ignorance here for it begs the obvious questions-
    1. Did Islamist violence not exist before?
    2. Were other factors at that time 1990 equally important-
    a) ISI and Pak stepping up their mischief in Kashmir and also elsewhere
    b) An Indian polity that was mortally wounded by Khalistani terrorist fight 1980-1993
    3. Is a disused mosque that imp to a faith that bombs can be set off to avenge it
    4. If so, then should the Kashmiri hindus also explode bombs for temples ravaged in
    Kashmir, ditto hindus in Pakistan
    5. is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the
    bombs
    6. who started the riots
    7. Also I want to know- what does the hindu community think of point 5 above, and what does the muslim community think of 3, 4 above.
    ———————
    1 and 6 have been answered by Syed and Gopi. Waiting for replies to 2-5 and 7. Not being provocative. Just thinking, and talking. I do not know the answers to most of above.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    he was the chereographer of most of the so called terrorist attacks from calcutta american embassy attack to parliament attack and attack on akshaydham.all time culprits were shot dead
    not allowed to live to say their part of story.he came to india in 1959 after planting bomb in karachi gathering ,after all his comrades were caught.he boarded a boac plane and landed at delhi.
    he has no love for india.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    the above is regarding advani.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raj Reply:

    March 10th, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    you forgot
    cia, raw, m16, jewish, zionist, rss, & every thing other than islamist

    raj bhai yeh sab ek hee kutiya ke pilley hain

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    as i mentioned in earlier blogs, i don’t know hindi. reply in english is appriciated.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    you forgot
    cia, raw, m16, jewish, zionist, rss, & every thing other than islamist

    raj bhai yeh sab ek hee kutiya ke pilley hain
    raj it means ,they are puppies of same *****.

    Dr D Mishra Reply:

    ps- my 3 biggets heroes are the 3 judges who gave the Ayodhya verdict. They defused a burning issue, Everyone gained, everyone lost, but India gained and did not lose at all. Those 3 guys should get BHARAT RATNA. They did not just give a property dispute judgement, they judged history and gave a judgement like they were doctors treating a diseased nation.
    I could not have done it better. They are already forgotten now, but I hope their fame will grow with years and we will be able to teach their story to our school pupils in the future. They are why India is India, and why Pakistan is sinking down the toilet bowl.
    I ned that drink. Good night all. Let the criticism begin.

  • Binoy Hegde

    watch the hearings on Islamic radicalization hearings by Rep Peter King–

    Rep peter King, the head of homeland Security committee, is starting public hearings on radicalization of islamic communities in USA…..Hearings will start on Thursday..Will be broadcasted on C-Span..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    there is radicalization.they are revenge attacks,

    JO MARA HAI BAKRE NE BAKRI KE EENGH,
    TO MAARE GEE BAKRI BHI BAKRE KE SEENGH.

    I KNOW U DONT KNOW HINDI.take help from ur friend.and rashtra bhasha.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Doc mishra- you have put life in this blog as Syed says. But, no, I am not taken in by your ‘I dont know the answers stance’. You do know the answers. In your lazy style, you provoke.
    I loved point 3 and 5 above- cuts to the heart of the matter. Shows how divisive religion can be if misused-
    ……
    3. Is a disused mosque that imp to a faith that bombs can be set off to avenge it
    5. is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the
    bombs
    ……
    My answers- no to number 3, yes to no. 5

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    bombs were not planted due to mosque.bombs were planted due muslim humiliation in bombay after demolition.dawood was involve in smuggling job was carried out by some others.
    main responsibility goes to hindu fascist and criminal israeli agent l.k.advani.and his gang.only stock market crash costed indian 80billions.
    the entire movement was based on lies and fraud.sangh parivar zhooton ka emperor hai.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    BRAVO mishrajee, as syed bhai and Riswan say, you are a raconteur extraordinaire. You ask questions that are community specific. I shall answer some below (my replies are in CAPITALS-)-
    “”"”Terrorist attacks started in India in the aftermath of the destruction of the babri masjid
    1. Did Islamist violence not exist before?- IT DID, BUT WAS LOCAL AND WITH A KHANJAR
    2. Were other factors at that time 1990 equally important-YES, ISLAMIST VIOLENCE IS NOT LOCAL ANYMORE, THERE IS INTERNATIONAL LINKAGE WITH MORE MONEY AND MORE IDEOLOGY
    a) ISI and Pak stepping up their mischief in Kashmir and also elsewhere
    b) An Indian polity that was mortally wounded by Khalistani terrorist fight 1980-1993
    3. Is a disused mosque that imp to a faith that bombs can be set off to avenge it- NO NO NEVER
    4. If so, then should the Kashmiri hindus also explode bombs for temples ravaged in
    Kashmir, ditto hindus in Pakistan- THEY WILL BE MASSACRED IF THEY TRIED
    5. is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the
    bombs- NO, DAWOOD AND ISI ARE. ADWANI WAS FOOLISH, IMMATURE
    6. who started the riots- MUSLIMS START, HINDUS FINISH, MURDEROUSLY NOW (RSS ETC EFFECT)
    7. Also I want to know- what does the hindu community think of point 5 above, and what does the muslim community think of 3, 4 above.- SYED/ RISWAN HAS ANSWERED THAT
    ————–

    [Reply]

  • shan

    sikh terrorism was also funded by the uk sikhs,and canadian,and lobbying US senate, and pakistan was actively help them. BUT THERE WERE ENOUGH SANE SIKHS WHO STUCK THEIR NECK OUT AND CONFRONTED THIS EVIL. There were millions in southall who WERE DISTRIBUTING SWEETS AFTER INDIRA GANDHI’S MIRDER BY HER OWN GUARDS.so the lesson is INDIAN MUSLIMS FOR THAT MATTERS MIDDLE CLASS MUSLIMS NEED TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED AND TAKE HEAD ON THESE VERMINS HEAD ON and expunge it for good, for the greater good of POOR MUSLIMS.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    so mishraji of the 7-question-fame, your sparks have ignited a forest fire !!!!!!!
    @ Sandhu- we seem to disagree on question no 5 which was- 5. is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the bombs.
    you said- NO, DAWOOD AND ISI ARE. ADWANI WAS FOOLISH, IMMATURE
    ———————
    sandhu saheb, i disagree. Dawood was the gutter rat who set off the bombs. But who set him off on the evil path- Advani, who for the sake of a few votes ignited a different kind of fire which burnt on for 15 years.
    So the key words are- ‘in a way he was responsible’

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    balwinder 6. who started the riots- MUSLIMS START, HINDUS FINISH, MURDEROUSLY NOW (RSS ETC EFFECT
    our rulers are expert of mediacracy,just i am a interesting article on godhra trial,u can have an how
    muslims are implicated wrongly,mishrajee vinay &raj ,need ur attention as this is national matter,

    GODHRA FACT AND FICTION

    Naqvi
    (22 hours ago) TodayRIGHT-WING movements concoct enemies to consolidate their hold on the masses. Hitler used the Reichstag fire, for example, by portraying the mysterious incident as a communist and Jewish plot, which became a ruse to witch-hunt both the communists and the Jews.

    There are no limits to the imagination in this. It is routine among a growing number of Indians to blame emperor Babar for setting off a chain of events in the 16th century that led to the officially encouraged destruction of the Babri Masjid in 1992.

    The Newtonian law was applied to the lynching of thousands of innocent Sikhs for the assassination of Indira Gandhi. It is used equally vigorously to explain what was otherwise a state-supported massacre of 2,000 Muslims in Gujarat in 2002. The horrific pogrom is thus neatly referred to, including by many unsuspecting liberals, as `post-Godhra riots`.

    A special court last month awarded the death sentence to 11 Muslims and life imprisonment to 20 others after they were charged with conspiracy to murder 59 Hindus by setting fire to a train coach on Feb 27, 2002. Another 63 including an alleged mastermind in the so-called conspiracy were set free. Tehelka

    The verdict went against key facts established by painstaking research by a section of the Indian media led by a sting operation by , a serious and outspoken investigative magazine.

    Its correspondent Ashish Khetan has pieced together a strong rebuttal of the court`s verdict. He has concluded that far from a conspiracy hatched by Muslims, it was the Narendra Modi government that conspired to frame the Muslims in the tragedy, which was otherwise an accident.

    The case largely rested on the testimonies of nine members of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) with a complex political backdrop. It relates to Godhra`s 12 administrative wards, each with three corporator seats. In the December 1999 municipal council elections, the BJP won 11 seats, independent Muslim candidates 16, the Congress five, and four seats were bagged by pro-BJP independents.

    Murli Mulchandani, one of the nine BJP men, had been the president of the municipal council. In 1999, he had contested but lost.

    To form the house in the council, a party needs 19 seats. The BJP had formed the house, supported by five Congress and three Muslim corporators. Raju Darji, a BJP corporator (who claims to be a witness to the fire) was elected president. Deepak Soni, another BJP corporator (also one of the nine witnesses), was appointed president of the education board formed under the council.

    But a year after the elections, 24 corporators — 16 Muslim, five Congress and three Hindu independents — joined ranks against the BJP and moved a no-confidence motion. The BJP lost the house. These 24 now elected Kalota as president of the municipal council.

    During a no-confidence motion debate, Muslim corporator Bilal Haji had beaten up BJP corporator Raju Darji, and a criminal complaint had been lodged against him. In 2002, after the Sabarmati Express carnage, Raju Darji, Deepak Soni and Murli Mulchandani, along with six other BJP members, claimed they saw Kalota, Bilal Haji and three other Muslim corporators `attack the train`.

    What didn`t seem to get noticed by the court was that these nine BJP men claimed they could identify the 41 Muslims they had named — including sundry pickpockets and truck drivers — because they were all Godhra residents. However, when cross-examined, they admitted to their pre-existing enmity with Kalota and others.

    Khetan has shown how the prosecution`s conspiracy theory against Godhra Muslims rested primarily on five sets of witnesses. They were: Tehelka

    — Nine BJP men who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the carnage. However, a sting caught two of these BJP men admitting on camera they were actually at home that day and the police fabricated their statements. They went along to “serve the cause of Hindutva”. The judge has now discarded all nine testimonies

    — Ajay Baria, a Hindu vendor, forced into the plot, saw it all. Judge Patel has relied hugely on Baria`s account. But why would Muslim conspirators pick a Hindu man at the last minute to help load the petrol and burn the train? His mother said he had been coerced into becoming a police witness and lived under constant police surveillance. Tehelka

    — Two petrol pump attendants who claim they sold 140 litres of fuel to some Muslims on Feb 26. Ranjitsinh and Pratapsinh Patel had first told the police that they had not sold any loose petrol that crucial night. In a shocking turnaround, six months later, they changed their version. However, caught Ranjitsinh admitting on camera that he and Pratap had been bribed Rs50,000 by police officer Noel Parmar to do that. He also tutored them to identify particular Muslims in court as being the buyers.

    — Jabir Bahera, a petty criminal, who first named Maulvi Umarji as a mastermind Bahera claimed it was Umarji who picked coach S-6 as the target, but also said Umarji was not at any conspiracy meetings. He later retracted everything.

    — Sikandar Siddique, another petty criminal, said he had pulled the chain the second time to stop the train. Siddique is an obvious unreliable witness. Besides Umarji, he had said Maulvi Punjabi had incited the mob. But Punjabi was not even in the country that day. Tehelka

    Two of these — Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak — were caught on camera telling the reporter that both of them were actually sleeping at home when the incident occurred. However, they said not only they but the other seven BJP `eyewitnesses` had also not been present at Godhra station. karseva

    Pathak also confessed that though all nine were from the BJP, the police had passed them off as Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) members to justify their presence at the railway station. (The call for the Ayodhya or Hindutva volunteers work had been given by the VHP).

    Khetan`s statement about Pathak and Mulchandani was recorded by the special probe team set up by the Supreme Court, in which they admitted on camera that they had fudged their statements. Neither his testimony nor the damning sting footage was produced in the court, for it would have interfered with Newton`s law applied to politically-expedient massacres.

    The writer is s correspondent in Delhi

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @binoy hegde, two elderly SIKHS shot dead in sacramento california, (Reported HT) , police suspects HATE CRIME, Would King also look into white hate crimes. Also THE BEST WAY TO STOP TERRORISM In USA IS TO DISMANTLE PAKISTAN.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Unfortunately, illiterate Americans take Sardarjis as Muslims because they all have seen pictures of Osama bin Laden with turban and beard. A few Sardarjis were shot immediately following 9/11.

    There is not much an issue of hate crime.. There are crazies and militias who think government will take their rights away, so they group in some remote areas and get into trouble once a while.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Mishra,
    1> It did. Riots were always present since Moghal’s time. But riots represent violence from both the sides. Who started, who dominated are the only arguable questions.
    2>Not much was written about Pak entering elsewhere in India (apart from Kashmir and Khalistan) 20 years ago. Dawood was a smuggler. If he had not imported weapons from Pak, he could have got it from Italy. (He is not a nationalist). Khalistan factor also was not influential in post 90s riots.
    3>Bomb was NOT set off by a FAITHFUL to avenge a disused mosque. It was set off by a criminal to protect his business. It is the impotence of our government, which let him flee our country instead of sentencing him. The Muslims in Mumbai did not let their burial ground for the 26/11 shooters. How can we say, they agreed with Dawood’s act? Mishraji, it is really divisive statement to say, Dawood’s act represented general Muslim sentiment towards Mandir/Masjid.
    4>Will not arise as I do not believe, general Muslim agreed with Dawood.
    5>Advani might not have been aware of what tools could be used in riots, but he was certainly aware there will be riots if the mosque is brought down. So he does become responsible. (Similarly I consider people who burnt the train in Godhra also as responsible for resultant riots, not just VHP/Bhajrang Dal).
    6>Ghori/Aurangzeb; There is a saying in our language, don’t go in search of origin of a river or sage. I feel, it applies to riots too. Many times it has triggered for a silliest reason and has killed thousands. Baseline is the underlying tension. Godhra riots points at burning of a couch, burning of couch points at a celebration of a mosque which was brought down, the erected mosque pointed at a temple brought down. In every case, knowing the root cause will not give a solution to the problem. But a sentiment of “let’s move on” can.

    I also have one question unanswered. Why the Indian Muslim community acts so stiff? To me, Mandir/Masjid was not about “respecting majority sentiment”. It was about “considering so many faithfuls aspiration”. In 90’s I felt, it was Sangh Parivar which made it an issue, which made both the sides stubborn. But muted response of Sangh and AMITB’s decission to challenge the recent judgement, disappointed me. There was a chance to bury the old hatchets. They didn’t let it happen.
    One might say, AMITB does not represent general Muslim’s sentiment either. Then how to figure out? Who actually are is opposing the construction of Mandir? Hindus? (Hindus demonstrated what they want once. They can’t vote BJP every time for the same. They have other issues too) Muslims? Seculars?

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    regarding mosque,
    the lie that temple was demolished was fabricated by zoinist forces to pull down mosque.had there been any temple over there TULSIDAAS WOULD HAVE MENTIONED IN HIS WRITINGS.
    IN CAMERA EXCAVATION FOUND BLUE IRANIAN TILES UNDERNEATH.
    BABRI MOSQUE IS ZOINIST CONSPIRACY TO HURT AND DIVIDE INDIA.

    hindus of ayodhya dont want this anymore.the whole case is creation of media.moreover this will open their claim for 15000- mosques.

    JAB PROOF NAHIN CHAHIYE ASTHA KA SAWAL HAI ,TO AAP WHITE` HOUSE AUR BUCKINGHAM PALACE PE CLAIM KAR DEEJIYE.KAHIYE HANUMAN YAHEEN RAHTA THA.
    PICKPOCKET SE DOSTI KARNE SE KYA FAYDA.DAKOO KE SATH RAHIYE.

    c

    [Reply]

    Dr D Mishra Reply:

    okay, my 7 questions started a debate. Thank you Syed bhai, Vinay, Benoy, Balwinder, Rizwan, Ram, Raj, Mohan, Gopi- did I forget anyone? I shall now become unpopular and give my own answers- right or wrong, who knows?
    1. Did Islamist violence not exist before Babri?…..’the tensions and riots were always there. As Syed said, however, rogue politicians could initiate and prolong a riot…
    2. Were other factors at that time 1990 equally important-….yes, Pak was soking Khalistan and Kashmiri terror and India was getting tired. I say that the Pak nuclear bomb subsequently made them bolder !!!
    3. Is a disused mosque that imp to a faith that bombs can be set off to avenge it…..SADLY, FOR SOME MUSLIMS, YES. Neutral accounts of BBC and Mehta’s book on Mumbai related that even middle class muslims felt vaguely triumphant after the blasts !!!!
    4. If so, then should the Kashmiri hindus also explode bombs for temples ravaged in
    Kashmir, ……this was the greatest strength and the greates weakness of hindus, they would not dream of doing it in the past. but Aseemanand and co have now become radicalised.
    5. is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the
    bombs…..YES, HE IS A DECENT MAN, but he did not realise that muslims and Dawood would take it so badly
    6. who started the riots…..this is very difficult to answer, my humble opinion, as corroborated by Syed on post Babri riots, is that most of the time muslims start riots ????? now Bajrang Dal etc have been radicalised
    7. oh forget it…
    —————-
    SORRY GENTLEMEN, this is my opinion. Sometimes as in the case of ramavtar, what we want to believe in, and what is correct, are 2 separate things. It may apply to me too.
    I find hindu muslim riots depressing, but hope we shall see very few in the future. JAI HIND. Dr Mishra, not drunk, but wanting a drink now

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    1> It did. Riots were always present since Moghal’s time. But riots represent violence from both the sides. Who started, who dominated are the only arguable questions

    vinay name one riot.first riot in india took place in sitara maharashra.few months`after tilak put the statues of shivajee and idol of ganesh (found in excavation in indonesia) in a park in mumbai..shivajee was very secular person.all his top generals were muslims and his hakim.he presented him as narrowminded`maratha.

    same sauaudi(muslim zoinists)did with people of saudia.killed thousands of sufis.they are also
    godless illuminati hiding among muslims like muslims.but story is different.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Raj,
    “.., just because bombs were not used you cannot say, no islamist violence did not exists.
    a train was burnt, not bombed, so you call it riots, nothing to do with islamist violence.
    how many you want to whitewash.” —

    A riot is different from a terrorist attack is it not.

    “The Babri Masjid was built by Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim over the ruins of an old hindu temple.
    – can he not find a bigger & better location, than an hindu temple ruins”.

    First, have you ever been to Ayodhaya? It is a very ancient town with lots of temples. Chances are more than even that if you build anything, you will build it on a buried temple.

    “In India Shias have actually built many temples.
    – then he could hv rebuilt this temple, rather than building a mosque, if shia are so benovelent.”

    Shias have built more temples than hindus have built mosques (if any).

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Islamophobe Evangelism.

    1. Much of Islamophobia in the US is being fuelled by; evangelical Christian conservatives, defenders of Israel and the Tea Party Republicans.

    2. The portrait of Islam being painted is of a religion totally dedicated to domination and destructive. This is so far from the truth that those who practice or study the religion are unable to recognise this description.

    3. Combating Terrorism Centre at the US Military Academy says; “When you have got folks who are looking for the worst in Islam and are promoting that as the entire religion of 1.5 or 1.6 billion people, then you only empower the real extremists.”

    4. There are powerful forces who are spreading distortion and fear and are doing disservice by failing to make distinction between Muslims who are potentially dangerous and those who are not.

    5. Selecting and highlighting verses from the Koran that appear to advocate violence, slavery, and subjugation of women, is being used as a crude propaganda technique.

    6. Thinly disguised INFORMANTS are infiltrating American Muslim Organisations and Mosques. These cartoon converts can be spotted from a mile.

    7. The fact that radicalised American Muslims are motivated by the American foreign policy, particularly when it results in the deaths of women and children, rather than by their interpretations of Koranic precepts, is ignored. Faisal Shahzad – who bombed the Times Square – said he wanted to avenge drone strikes in his native province.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi, Selecting and highlighting verses from the Koran that appear to advocate violence, slavery, and subjugation of women, is being used as a crude propaganda technique.
    — same as you & ram do it at every chance you get against hindus. pay back time ?
    - every time i hear muslims say read the koran for true understanding, after reading it and people still point out, they say its lost in translation & you hv to read the orignal in arabic. if people well versed in arabic point out , they say you hv to read it with a mulla for understanding the context.
    instead of accepting that there are horrible things in it, like in all religous books, you are not going anywhere.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ravi, Selecting and highlighting verses from the Koran that appear to advocate violence, slavery, and subjugation of women, is being used as a crude propaganda technique

    no religion has given as high position to women as islam.u are sending ur women to temples to be fkd by pujaris teaching us the lesson.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    same as you & ram do it at every chance you get against hindus. pay back time

    i am ready raj.dont worry.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi, The portrait of Islam being painted is of a religion totally dedicated to domination and destructive.
    – read history , & how it spread from arabia, to india, & europe. remember global caliphate/ ummah
    you cannot blame them.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    pls tell me,bitmore in iraq and afghanistan even missionaries have not gone.indonesia became muslim when it was ruled by hindu rulers.later their king jalaluddin ibn ganesh himself converted.
    north india was under muslim occupation for 1000 yrs but only 40% were muslims.spain same.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, north india was under muslim occupation for 1000 yrs but only 40% were muslims.spain
    — the classic one,
    hitler is not soo bad, if he wanted he could hv gassed all jews….

    pls tell me,bitmore in iraq and afghanistan
    – there is kaffir technology called internet & google, pls learn to use it.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raj,

    hitler is not soo bad, if he wanted he could hv gassed all jews….

    raj what is point.tell me.

    raj Reply:

    @ravi, Combating Terrorism Centre at the US Military Academy says; “When you have got folks who are looking for the worst in Islam and are promoting that as the entire religion of 1.5 or 1.6 billion people, then you only empower the real extremists.”
    — i hv read a lot worse from mullas, jews and christians are pigs & apes, don’t be their friends & they are worth killing.
    pot calling kettle black !

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    hv read a lot worse from mullas, jews and christians are pigs & apes, don’t be their friends

    may be this is written by ur brother muslims jews and christians are cousins.cannot write like tell me where u read it .otherwise u are liar.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi 7. The fact that radicalised American Muslims are motivated by the American foreign policy,
    —no, some muslims are brainwashed by hate preaching mulla from pakistan & other muslim countries, about the greatness of islam, caliphate & ummah & its their duty to kill them. They are promised a happy after life with 72 girls & wine in heaven.
    if it is not american foreign policy , they will talk about kashmir, bosnia to brain wash them. & if there is nothing else, its israel & jews.
    if they still cannot find any reason, then they look into other muslim sects like ahamadia, bhora, shia sunni , & kill each other.
    so stop excusing hate preach in mosque & its bad effect on youth.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    islam never preach hate u are a liar.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    maan gaye doc mishra, as I had suspected you DID have answers to your 7 questions. I salute you Sir, agree or disagree is irrelevant here. You covered a lot of ground and allowed a lot of us to catharcise here.
    Yes, the 3 Ayodhya judges should get Bharat Ratna, but put yourself in the shoes of the muslim judge and see the journey he took. And yet we muslims are silent on his contribution- the biggest of them all. Sad.
    Make a hospital over the site, a grand Ram temple 1 mile away and a masjid 1 mile away in another direction- I and my workers will make a contribution to all 3. Ayodhya is history, the maoist thing is what we should be looking for.
    Syed bhai bravo- shias never destroyed but actyually build temples- we all love reading your posts.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Make a hospital over the site, a grand Ram temple 1 mile away and a masjid

    riwan u are a joker hat hindu fascist want is war between communities.not temple.they are zoinist not hindu hiding among hindus want to be at top of pyramid without doing anything.they are godless.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @rizwan, Make a hospital over the site, a grand Ram temple 1 mile away and a masjid 1 mile away in another direction- I and my workers will make a contribution to all 3
    as syed mentioned earlier,
    First, have you ever been to Ayodhaya? It is a very ancient town with lots of temples. Chances are more than even that if you build anything, you will build it on a buried temple.

    — so building them on new location, might become land mine for next generation. lets stop it.
    make sure they build whatever thay want within their land, and close the chapter.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ayodhya was a buhdhdist and jainese place.it is not an ancient town it life is 2300 yrs only.
    rama cult started from 16th century only.it became vibrant municipality from sleeping during nawbs rule.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    @ramu, as doc mishraa said- ‘Mera bharat mahaan tab hoga when everyone does their bit, cannot have muslims like you sulking or sniggering on one side. Tumhe apna samajh ke yeh baat kahi’

    Jab Dubai se vaapas aao, to ek sahi attitude leke aana. Tumhe apni Bhiwadi factory mein naukri duunga

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    rizwan i am contractor have 300 people working 0n my visa can purchase 10 likeu.what i said is right.murderers and gundaas should not be allowed to have the fruits of their voilence.they burnt alive 14 innocent on 6th december and demolished a grat indian heritage.apart from this they also demolished 19 shiv temples.they should pay for these losses.

    high court has given the advise not judgement.every right thinking man in india has rejected this.
    curt is supposed to give judgement not advise.but judges are coerced under pressure.afraid of repercrussion.independent and fearless judiciary is base of democracy.on all goverment papers land belongs to waqf board.
    a gang sadhus use their idols to bully others and seize the land of weak and poors,by intalling idol.99%of their victims are hindus.
    what they have done to india and people of india ,they dont deserve one inch of land.also they dont want land what they want is voilence.voilence will hide their crimes and bring votes.
    they are the biggest economic offenders of india.

    mishra is right regarding‘Mera bharat mahaan tab hoga when everyone does their bit.muslim are the creators of wealth they want and they are doing their part.i am indian as much as i am muslim.cannot support the deeds of criminals who are paralyizng the nation on non-issues like this.people of ayodhya also kicked them out.vinay katihar had no courage to fight election from ayodhya.
    next time use right language.dont talk of wealth.her we are discussing national issues not wealth.may be u have seen this for the first time in ur life.
    first call for partition of india came from rss not jinnah.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @Raj,
    “.., just because bombs were not used you cannot say, no islamist violence did not exists.
    a train was burnt, not bombed, so you call it riots, nothing to do with islamist violence.
    how many you want to whitewash.” —

    A riot is different from a terrorist attack is it not.

    – so whats your definaition of terrorist act & riots. both is act to terrorise & kill people. may be the weapon used it different but people who do it expect the same result. you cannot say its just the scale of human destruction, you cannot compare it like, rain patches, rain, thunderstrom, hurricane, etc.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @syed, “The Babri Masjid was built by Mir Baqi who was a shia muslim over the ruins of an old hindu temple.
    – can he not find a bigger & better location, than an hindu temple ruins”.
    First, have you ever been to Ayodhaya? It is a very ancient town with lots of temples. Chances are more than even that if you build anything, you will build it on a buried temple.
    —— this is the rub in hindus face. same as they want to build a mosque near twin towers, and lof of people are opposing that. its sad that muslims don’t want to see others sentiments, as this place raise strong emotions in people irrespective of religion.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raj plinth was built by ibrahim lodhi.under camera excavation proved that there was iranian structure.

    rst, have you ever been to Ayodhaya? It is a very ancient town with lots of temples. Chances are more than even that if you build anything, you will build it on a buried temple

    raj ,ayodhya was buhdhdist place,nowhere it it is mentioned in hindu holy scriptures.when muslims took this place ,it was sleeping village ,they made this place a,vibrant municipality.all temples in ayodhya were built under nawab rule.he encouraged to built this place on karbala pattern.
    ram lila was started by nawab vajid ali shah.

    raj from where u got the information that mosque was built on rubble of temple.

    temples were destroyed by hindus.in vaishnav area shive temple will not be allowed to exist and shiv bhakt will face death.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    now you are runnig out of lies,

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    pls specify.if u feel anything is wrong.

  • Dr Dev Mishra

    thank you Rizwan. There was a muslim organisation in Lucknow that had offered to donate money for a temple at Ayodhya. It was a Shia org, I think, which is very interesting for THAT IS WHAT SYED BHAI WAS ALLUDING TO. SO, you see, in this blog we do see different strands os info knotting together.
    Glad to see my 7 questions provoke a discussion after all, forget a temple maybe after the cricket match I will go to a temple after all- havent been in 6 months !
    Tendulkar has just scored 100, 2 mins ago. jio raja

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Guys this is what i posted in chikermane’s blog . It is apt here. PARTICULARLY AFTER THE RECENT
    TSUNAMI IN JAPAN, NONE OF THE BUILDINGS IN TOKYO COLLAPSED BUT HAD WOBBLED LIKE HELL , THANKS TO SCIENCE AND NOT ANY HOLY BOOK OR PRAYERS.When will the ignorant minds that swarm these blogs be illuminated, WE NEED BOBBY HERE, here is the cut and paste
    @nabi, went to the link you posted, Nothing but running riot with WORDS,and here is a giveway THAT THE MINDSET HASN’T CHANGED,
    Then watch God’s miracles pour down from the sky as they did for Moses, Jesus and David, God Bless Them All!
    If you are above 40yrs ,diabetic and having problem with ERECTION affecting your conjugal life, nothing will pour down , unless you use PDE5 inhibitor drugs which are not discovered by rumagging THE HOLY BOOKS,but by intense scientific(that is objective, verifiable and reproducible) methods.
    THE FUNDAMENTAL THING ISLAM NEEDS TO GET OUT OF IS THIS THINKING THAT IT IS UNIQUE AND BEYOND REPROACH. It aint ,it is like ant other religion evolved like any other religion in any other geographicalland mass with MASSIVE CULTURAL OVERLAY.
    So the bottom line is accept islam as just another religion ,which people need in times of bereavement or times of mental agony forPSYCHOTHERAPY purposes only.
    THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES COUNTRIES , CUKTURES ,THINKING OF 21ST CENTURY IS SCIENCE , SCIENCE, SCIENCE , SCIENCE.
    It is the ONLY THING THAT BINDS ALL HUMANTINY TOGETHER , THERE IS NO ISLAMIC ANTI MALARIAL TABLETS FOR TREATING MALARIA IN A DEVOUT MUSLIM.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    you are above 40yrs ,diabetic and having problem with ERECTION affecting your conjugal life, nothing will pour down , unless you use PDE5 inhibitor drugs which are not discovered by rumagging

    shan u are donkey holy book is moral not medicine.islam is way of life based on high moral principle.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ya..high moral principle..such as killing non believers

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    u do we dont do.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    killing is in your veins, no denying is going to negate…your history, your books all talk about separation, exclusivity, hate.. why wouldnt all be gods childrten.. the whole theseis that only muslims are gods children is so backward even in those days! When the chief Mullah got these revelations, our great great grandfathers (may be yours too) were chanting” loka samastha sukhini bhavandu”

    And the killing continue even now..It is Ahamadiyyas if not Shia..it is Wahabi vs berelvi..It is Sunnis vs hindus…It is Sunnis vs Coptic christians in Egypt..

    Tme to get a life,a nd be a member of the world community. All are brothers and sisters.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    exclusivity, hate.. why wouldnt all be gods childrten.. the whole theseis that only muslims are gods

    in islam god belong to every body.even to animals.

    When the chief Mullah got these revelations, our great great grandfathers (may be yours too) were chanting” loka samastha sukhini bhavandu”

    why casteism then.u are the only one who says man are born unequal.why billions of women were burnt alive ,never any religious reached to save them.

    And the killing continue even now..It is Ahamadiyyas if not Shia..it is Wahabi vs berelvi..It is Sunnis vs hindus…It is Sunnis vs Coptic christians in Egypt

    they are more political in nature than religious.

    shan Reply:

    holy book is moral , LIKE IT SAYS IT IS OKAY TO GENTLY BEAT YOUR WIFE IF SHE REFUSES SEX.
    Another jem ,A MAN SHOULD USE(Ihave not used the exact word) WOMEN LIKE A PLOUGH ON THE LAND

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    IT IS OKAY TO GENTLY BEAT YOUR WIFE IF SHE REFUSES SEX

    better than burn her alive.in geeta women is given status less than shuidra it means her murder is not sin.

    Another jem ,A MAN SHOULD USE(Ihave not used the exact word) WOMEN LIKE A PLOUGH ON THE LANd

    bullshit nothing like this.islam is only religion which provides right to property divorce and
    keep her name.husband caanot ask even to make food for him.

    ineurope women is nothing but semi prostitute.among high caste she has no position.

    dont forget vivekanand died in a brothel in the arms of a prostitute.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram — geeta does not put woman in any lower position than man..The leading ladies of Mahabharayth – Sairandhri(Draupadi), Kunti devi, Gandhari- all were formulated by the great poet Vyasa to show different aspects of feminity. Draupadi was born out of fire;as the powerful sister of Dhrishta Dhymna.,

    And you have to understand the issue in front of us is Islamic backwardness (in everything – edu, lit, science, u name it ), Islamic terrorism, etc… No amount of what it was when Europe was behind etc is no solution. THe solution ha sto come present and now; your attempt to bring an example of Vivekanada etc shows only how pitriable you are.

    So, are you saying that since Vivekananda dies in a prostitutes house, that prostitute is not a good human being, or Vivekananda is not a great soul? Well, it will be tough to catch up with the big Mullah of Arabia who married 9 yr old, and killed people in propagation..Accept that there are many peace loving people, people who live in peace; Muslims genetically have an issue to live in peace.. in Sudan, rwanda, Somalia, Pakistan, wherever

    shan Reply:

    Guys this what a “THIRD PARTY” (patrick french in his book “India , an intamate biography of 1.2 billion people”) opinion is about the demigod of Ravi khalispakistani (page 360-361)

    The indus valley civilization , which began more than 4000yrs ago and can be seen in archaeological remains in india and pakistan., has an atavistic link to modern hinduism.
    The large and beautifully constructed ritual bathing tank at the centre still found besides the most temples today.SO FOR WENDY DONIGER , THE TANK AT MOHENJO-DARO PERHAPS HAD NO RITUAL PURPOSE., ‘Well it’s a big building true , why couldn’t be a dorm or a hotel or a hospital or even a brothel’
    questions like this owe to more to the exigencies ofamerican academia than to close observation or probability.they are an example of scholarly tendency to write about India and particularly about hinduism in a way when writing about christianity or islam . INDEED THE BLANKET TITLE OF DONIGER’S BOOK ” the hindus” , is hard to imagine transposed to THE CHRISTIANS OR THE MUSLIMS.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    THE TANK AT MOHENJO-DARO

    mohan jodro is pre-aryan.destroyed by invading aryan.very advanced.

    Ravi Reply:

    Fellow Bloggers

    I am sure it has not escaped your notice that once again the level of abusive language in this blog has plunged to newer depths. For that I apologise.

    In my defence I would like you to consider the fact that I very strongly feel SHAN needs to be given a taste of his own medicine. It is a dirty job and some one has to do it and if that unwanted dis-honour falls to me then so be it. I think I am up to the job and time permitting I will continue to do it until Shan and I both get barred from this blog.

    If that were to happen, I would consider it as an achievement, if it does not then at least I can continue to ensure that he and his despicable behaviour is exposed to every one, even to those who read this blog, but wish not to join in the discussions. Who can blame them.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    If you are above 40yrs ,diabetic and having problem with ERECTION affecting your conjugal life

    shan tum ghanddoo bangaleon ka 25 saal mein hee khatam ho jata hai musalman dhhondti phirti hain.i know u id10ts very well.
    why u brought islam ,here. muslims have produced best scientists in the world.1001 innovative inventions came from them.tum ghanddo bengaleon ne bak bak karne walon ke kya kiya.u are bunch of idiots,having slave blood.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    In a repeat of the infamous Professor Sabharwal case of Ujjain, Professor SS Thakur of Bhagwant Rao Agriculture College in Khandwa, about 60 kilometres from Indore — who was roughed up by ABVP activists three days ago — died of a heart attack late on Friday night. On March 9, ABVP activ ists had entered college Dean Dr P P Shastri’s office and blackened the face of assistant professor Ashok Choudhary. They had accused professor Choudhary of misbehaving with girls in the college hostel and were demanding his removal.

    Professor Thakur, present in the room at that time, tried to intervene and was roughed up by the ABVP activists.

    Family members and colleagues of the deceased professor Dr SS Thakur said that Thakur had also been assaulted during the ABVP fracas. Humiliated and hurt over the incident, he had gone on leave to his ancestral house in Damoh where he died.

    The incident comes about four years after professor HS Sabharwal died following an assault by ABVP activists, when he tried to stop irregularities during union polls at Ujjain’s Madhav College.

    The case had sparked national outrage.

    Several ABVP leaders were arrested but acquitted because of lack of evidence. In 2007, a year after Sabharwal’s death, a teacher in Tikamgarh was thrashed by alleged ABVP activists in front of his three daughters. The culprits were not caught. Instead, the teacher was transferred out of the district.

    Sabharwal’s son Himanshu Sabharwal, told Hindustan Times from New Delhi over the phone that ABVP has no right to indulge in moral policing and they could have resorted to legal procedures.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, In a repeat of the infamous
    — it seems better than killing a profeesor for being gay.
    Aligarh Muslim University professor suspended for being gay
    An Aligarh Muslim University professor, on the verge of retirement, was suspended after some students set up cameras to catch him having consensual sex with a rickshaw-puller in his campus home, and sent the video film to university authorities. Dr Shrinivas Ramchandra Siras, reader and chairman of Modern Indian Languages at AMU, now says he won’t challenge his suspension and would voluntarily leave.
    Siras’s decision not to question his suspension has come as a relief to AMU authorities, who are more than keen to bury the “embarrassing episode” as it could raise a serious issue of gay rights on the campus since the professor wasn’t accused of any wrongdoing or criminal action. Consensual sex with a same-sex partner isn’t a crime in itself.

    Less than two months after he was suspended and hounded out of his campus home on charges of having consensual homosexual act with a rickshaw-puller, Aligarh Muslim University (AMU) teacher Shrinivas Ramchandra Siras was found dead in mysterious circumstances at his rented single-room accommodation in Quarti police circle of Aligarh

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-02-18/india/28118769_1_shrinivas-ramchandra-siras-rickshaw-puller-amu-campus

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    this is an old story.it was condemnable.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @ram autar, let darkness give way to the light of truth,(tamaso ma jyotirgomoyo) here you have it
    From Quran:Sura (2:223) – “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will.”

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    because adultry is punishable by death.we have different values.radha was neighbours wife.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Raj
    “—— this is the rub in hindus face. same as they want to build a mosque near twin towers, and lof of people are opposing that. its sad that muslims don’t want to see others sentiments, as this place raise strong emotions in people irrespective of religion.”

    On what basi are you linking Babri mosque to the twin towers case?

    As no temple or any other structure was demolished in Ayodhaya to make way for the Babri masjid your comparison is baseless.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @syed, it seems you hv no prbolme in building a mosque over an hindu temple, ruins or ruined by islamist. why not a mosque far away from it, why on it. they had whole india, but why a mosque on kaffir temple. is it islamic supramacy to belittle other gods & their place of worship ?

    @syed, On what basi are you linking Babri mosque to the twin towers case?
    why a mosque near twin tower, usa is big country. it is again the supremist attitude to make a mosque near a place destructed by islamist. tha’t why lot pf people hv protested against it.
    & muslims wanted to name it Córdoba – capital of islamic caliphate.

    when bush named & mentioned crusade when he started iraq war, there was a lot of opposition from muslims about mentioning crusaders. & he was forced to change the name.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    why a mosque near twin tower, usa is big country.

    why should not be.if it is unlawful it is ok.if not ,why they oppose.because of these criminals america is poorest country of world.debt 11 time to their gdp.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    when bush named & mentioned crusade
    what he said is truth american armies were led by fake pastors with gun(not bible)in their hands.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    syedbhai, your comment- ‘As no temple or any other structure was demolished in Ayodhaya to make way for the Babri masjid’ goes against the Ayodhya judgement
    @Benoy, why tangle with ramavtar, he is VERY FIXED in his ways. You make very valuable observations – save it for the others

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Raj,
    “– so whats your definaition of terrorist act & riots. both is act to terrorise & kill people. may be the weapon used it different but people who do it expect the same result. you cannot say its just the scale of human destruction, you cannot compare it like, rain patches, rain, thunderstrom, hurricane, etc.”

    If the yardstick for a terrorist attack or a riot is just the result, then the violence that followed Ahmedabad after the burning train was also multiple terrorist attacks, wasnt it???

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed, you are in a tricky ground. I can understand where it is coming from ,but knowing you who has a completely open mind and unbiased approach , I think in your heart of hearts you wouldn,t like to go down that path.
    What you are saying is if gujrat progrom has to been as a natural reaction to the action called godhra, then 9/11 needs to be seen as an reaction for whatever is perceived action.
    But then iraq and afganistan becomes reaction to action called 9/11(which probably is, but humanist and sane people will unequivocally condemn iraq invasion )

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    if gujrat progrom has to been as a natural reaction to the action called godhra, then 9/11 needs

    both were`state managed.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @syed, yardstick for a terrorist attack or a riot is just the result,
    that’s how you started, when you said there was no islamic terrorism before bombay bombings.
    & you didnot consider riots, as only few hindus were killed.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    “THE ONLY THING THAT DEFINES COUNTRIES , CUKTURES ,THINKING OF 21ST CENTURY IS SCIENCE , SCIENCE, SCIENCE , SCIENCE”

    Allah has made a specific promise to muslims in the Quran – “Call on me and I will answer your prayers”.
    I am sure god has made simoilar promises to all other religions also. So now a question to all religious types:

    An asteroid large enough to destroy all life on earth, has been observed approaching and will hit earth in 6 months. scientists today can land an astronaut on the asteroid and set off an explosion to deflect its path.

    So what should you do?
    1) Prepare for the expedition
    2) Pray to your God for deflecting the .

    You can give ONLY one answer.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed,BRILLIANT,far more mundane with not to litte self interest. You have burst appendix, what will you do,go to a doctor , or consult holy books.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rizwan

    However, if the science and technology was not advanced enough to “land an astronaut on the asteroid”, what would you propose humanity does in that scenario.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    medicine was at peak during jesus days.his claim that he can give life to dead man was correct.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    If science and technology is not that advanced , then enjoy every moment that is left , till the asteroid crashes.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    shan,
    usa has maximum number of depression patient.
    tumhi ne dard diya hai tumhee dawa dena.

  • Ravi

    Sex in the holy book.

    Rama the all knowing god purified Sita in a fire. Why?

    “Had I not purified her, good people would have said of me, ‘That Rama, Dashratha’s son is certainly lustful and childish.’ But I knew that she was always true to me.” (6.103-6)

    When Lakshmana learns that Rama has been exiled, he says “The King is perverse, old and addicted to sex, driven by lust (2.18.3) Rama says as much himself: “He’s an old man, and with me away he is so besoted by Kaikeyi that he is completely in her power, and capable of doing anything. The king has lost his mind. I think sex (kama) is much more potent than either artha or dharma. For what man, even an idiot like father, would give up a good son like me for the sake of a pretty woman? (2.47.8-10)

    Later Sita enters the earth.

    Sita comes from another world to a mortal king, bears him children, is mistreated by him, and leaves him forever, with only the twin children to console him.

    Sita walks out on Rama in the end (as Urvashi does in the Veda but not in the Brahmanas), an extraordinary move for a Hindu wife. Moreover, unlike the paradamatic good Hindu wife, Sita very definitely is not reunited with her husband in heaven. For she goes down into the earth, returning to her mother, he goes (back) up to heaven when he dies years later, returning to Vishnu.

    From The Hindus – An Alternative History by Wendy Doniger.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi, Sex in the holy book — good porn title.
    as shan mentioned , i cannot understand how this holy book is going to give you an erection.

    if it is to belittle hindus, then read your own holy book filled with much worse things.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ravi-

    “extraordinary move for a Hindu wife” — there was no “Hindu” in Ramarajya; only prajas. Sita was not a Hindu wife; Rama was not a “Hindu”; although the people living in India (who were later called Hindus) worshipped them.

    As for Sita – Sita may be the first feminist, environmentalist etc of the world. Indian poets in all languages have written about Sita focusing on the various stages of her growth and maturity. She went along with her husband for 12 years’ of vanvas although she questioned why she has to suffer the hardships for a vow He gave to the king without consulting her. During vanvas she constantly questions where did men get the authority and right to destroy forests, kill animals – what about the right of animals to wander free in their “allotted” land, where the seers lived with their families without killing any animal.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr S Singh

    Thanks for adding to my knowledge.

    My post was not anti Sita or Anti Hindu.

    Merely a suggestion that when we adopt contemporary morality/stance and review ancient texts, then it is not difficult to find objectionable quotes. Singling out any one text is an exercise in negative propaganda and schoolboy debating technique rather than a learned comment.

    I am fascinated by treatment of women, animals and parays in Hindu scriptures.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ravi-

    I still dont see “sex” with reference to contemporary or then situation — There are various interpretations of why Rama had to go to the forests..and one is Dasratha’s lust for Kaikeyi. So, what is the issue? That he had lust for Kaikeyi? And that qualifies for “sex”?

    Sita’s “Agni pareeksha” should be a lesson to all the politicians of today.. Rama knew she was innocent, that Ravana did not have sex with Sita. But gossips emerged that a beautiful woman in the custody of a man for such a long time invariably will have to yield for sexual request. For, after all, he kidnapped her. So, it was not Rama who wanted a proof; Rama , as the righteous King, in “Ramarajya”, had to prove to his citizens that She was pure beyond any doubt. (like Caesar’s wife).. And the theory was the “Agni” (fire) will consume her if she was impure; if not, she will walk alive out of the fire. She did; but decided that she would not live with the husband who doubted her (although she agreed that the King had a right to ask a test like that)

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    So a god decided that although he knew his wife was innocent, but in order to convince the doubting praja, he needed to conduct a Trial by Ordeal.

    To help you, I am posting a definition.

    Trial by ordeal is a judicial practice by which the guilt or innocence of the accused is determined by subjecting them to an unpleasant, usually dangerous experience. In some cases, the accused were considered innocent if they survived the test, or if their injuries healed; in others, only death was considered proof of innocence. (If the accused died, they were often presumed to have gone to a suitable reward or punishment in the afterlife, which was considered to make trial by ordeal entirely fair.)

    Fire was not the only Ordeal fodder, water was as well and in medieval Europe, if one wanted to get rid of an unloved woman (although supposedly there were Male witches, but it was mainly applied to women), one just accused her of being a witch.

    A popular method of determining if someone was a witch was drowning. If the person sank, he or she was found innocent, but by then it was too late to save them. If they floated they were deemed a witch, because they are opposed to baptism and so the water would reject them.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Have a read of this article.

    http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~tkeene/ogtthoughtpapsampleA.htm

    S Singh Reply:

    What does middle age Europe have to do with a book written eons before civilization bloomed in Europe?

    Ramayana happens in Treta Yuga, an age after the first yuga (kriti) and before Dwapara (Lord Krishna’s)…so many celstial years ago.. Our forfathers were uttering “loka Samastha Sukhino bhavandu” eons before any other culture knew theer were people and animals and plants outside their immediacy.

    I just do not understand what your point or issue is — is it that Hindu women are not progressive? Or is it that Ramayana is full of sex (even if so, so what?)?

    Unfortunately, at this time (and in the forseeable future pof 100-200 years) your Muslim women will remain in ghettos thanks to your book. Insyead of looking into ramayana to criticize Hindus or dragging jews into all problems, you all will be better off to get educated and achieve something.. mayawati became the chief minister of the most populous state in india in spite of two hits (according to you and Ram – Dalit and woman).

    A foreign born Christian woman is running the country now. She is able to because the majority accepts her as their own, neither as a foreigner, nor as a woman, but as a person worthy of acceptance and respect.

    Samething happened to some of the Muslim ruylers like Akbar. The people who worshipped and respected Akbar found Aurengazeb repulsive.

    Go on comparing books. The reality is that Muslims are measurably backward, every day going back in time, all over the world; all because of their own baggage and faults; and not because of anybody else. There are no Hindus in Pakistan.tthere are no Hindus in sudan. And no jews either.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    singh dashrat was impotent rama was not his son.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ravi saheb need ur comment,word hindu cam from arabia.word hindu is nowhere mentioned in holy scripture.thsi story of ramanaya was written by valmiki,an immigrant fro middle east.where a king with the name ramses (ses means son of sun,means chandra)u can go to laksar egypt and see his temples.description of ayodhya matches.

    zoinist cannot live without war and voilence,so they started this movement to hurt india and indian.valmiki ramayan is not kept in the house as valmiki was chamaar,while tulsidaas though copied this can be find everywhere.
    i also tell to our bloggers few facts,u will surprise,saudi royal family is jewish,not muslim.they belong to a tribe mordakhai which jewish.
    ghaddafi is jew,his mother and grand mother are italian jew.

    mohan bhagwat is jew.

    sarkozy is jew.their father mothr were bulgarian jew.migrated to france and now hiding among christians and plundering france.

    see tactics is same and claim,

    country belong to them.subjects are virmins.

    they all keep ancient name to hide their identity..they all use religion of natives as an instument of suppression and voilence.

    now u will understand from where ramlalla(a city in plaestine has come).

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ravi bhai,Kaikeyi checheneya kee thee.sex ke expert thee.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Ravi, the imbecile, cretin a square and a cabbage and a mug. Hindus have no problem with sex , infact kinsey , the yankee prof widely acknowledged as the father of sexology , had said INDIA HAD INVENTED SEX, that is ways to enjoy carnal pleasure, he obviously had kama Sutra in mind.
    Indian scriptures are replete with graphic description of sex , and they don’t make any bones about it . Lord shiva was uncontrollable in wedding night and made noisy sex that kept the wedding guest worried. lord krishna’s liason with radha five years senior has included carnal women on top descriptions. BUT HINDU RELIGION DOES NOT CLAIM IT HAS ALL ANSWERS FOR ALL ASPECT OF LIFE AND DO NOT INVOKE GOD TO JUSTIFY PAEDOPHILIA AND BEATING OF WIFE FOR REFUSING SEX.
    As I have pointed out several times before a strand of hinduism according to CHARBAK beleives there is no GOD , the whole purpose of this life is enjoy it to its full including carnal pleasures.
    ISLAM GRATES BECAUSE IT CLAIMS IT HAS ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS IN LIFE AND IS HIGHLY MORALISTIC(read utter bollocks)

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    BUT HINDU RELIGION DOES NOT CLAIM IT HAS ALL ANSWERS FOR ALL ASPECT

    supreme court has given verdict that hidu is samaj not religion.i say it is nationality.i am also hindu as i live in hindustan.our right of being hindu was taken when constitution was written.this was conspiracy to make blood bath division.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Who took your rights away? You can be anything in this country.. But, your buddies in the mosque will kill you, if you say you are a Hindu. I give it 99% probability.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    hum hidustani hain,chahe geeta padhe ya quran.hum hindu hai chahe ramayan padhe ya hadees.our this right was taken ,when local and international zoinist wrote the constitution.
    hindu is nationality not religion.islam is my religion while hindu is my nationality.like chines e or malaysian.

    crooks did this to ignite internal voilence and local wars to get vth columnists.

    Vinay Reply:

    I loved the above post Ram. Things like this get missed in your copy-paste and Hinduism bashing posts.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    shan,as per geeta women is graded between shudra and chandals.it means they are out of 4 castes.hence their killing donot carry any punishment.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ram- stop uttering your constant nonsense about zionists, brahmins, all except muslims..

    Gita does not put any women below men — it just talks about Dharmas of various responsibilities…
    It also does not belittle Sudra vs Kshatriya etc.. And in Gita days it was essentially a division of labour/responsibilities; where one could always move from one position to another (ie one could be a brahmin through learning).

    The greatest writers and poets of India – Valmiki and Vyasa- were born not in the writing class, but Sudra.

    I read your theory that Valmiki came from middle east . I can say it cannot be..because mid east will not be so ignorant and backward were it able to produce a jewel like Valmiki.

    Now, if it will give you any consolation — Only 1 % of hindus will be reading Gita or Ramayana…But it survives, thrives, westerners and scholars jam to learn and write on these, generally speaking people live a virtuous life (of course bad apples are there0, generally speaking they absolve violence…and look at the Quran reading 100% Muslims…

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Gita does not put any women below men — it just talks about Dharmas of various responsibilities

    read it caste are made lord krishna.when roop kanwar was madi sati shankaracharya endorse the act.it is british reformist who came to their help,not hindu dharmik people.

    5000 yeras ago egypt made pyramids.they were not ignorant .i ahve one statue without joint weighing 1000 tons.hanuman was the god of science and technology.biggest science was the transfer of stone.in india also hanuman is shown flying with mountain on his hand.
    material to built pyramid was brought from aswan and laskan which are 1000 kilometer from cairo.pyramid weighs 450 million tons.

    Gita does not put any women below men — it just talks about Dharmas of various responsibilities
    pati bhagwan tha.maoist are fighting for their rights not for development or responsibility.
    parusram killed his mother on the intruction of his father.daughter of a brhmn is not condered as brhmn.

    Quran reading 100% Muslims…

    same with muslims.they read quran in arabic then forget it.but our social cultural laws are more humane.i have never heard any women burnt alive in muslim country because of doery or house voilence.as killing of men and women carry same punishment.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Thanks, Ram. Now I know why Muslims are thriving so much (in killing others!) and in racing backwards at high speed…

    When are you going to get a life? How long are you going to defend this and put everything on the feet of Jews (15 million people in a world of 6.5 billion people)

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    The greatest writers and poets of India – Valmiki and Vyasa- were born not in the writing class, but Sudra

    valmiki was not indian.he was immigrant,chamar by race and dakoo by profession.
    mummification was highest paid job.hence chamar was most wealthy community.and continous exploitation and overspending to built their masoleum and lavish way of life,economies used to fail and robbers used to loot the the temples.that is why pyramids were built.but they too were looted.
    now they have found cities under pyramids as well
    india ayodhya(saket)is nothing.few old jainese and budhhdist temples.most of them like hanuman ghari was built during nawab period.
    zoinist will always waste our time and plunder india.like ghaddafi of libya sauds of saudi arabia sarcozys of france(only 30 women wear hijab).for that he has making france unpopular in muslim world.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ISLAM GRATES BECAUSE IT CLAIMS IT HAS ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS IN LIFE AND IS HIGHLY MORALISTIC
    they can give guidance to all ur problems.muslims usually dont have sex problem my neighbour had 3 wives age 92 planning another.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    INDIA HAD INVENTED SEX, that is ways to enjoy carnal pleasure, he obviously had kama Sutra in mind.

    thsi is only gift india has given to humanity.

    BUT HINDU RELIGION DOES NOT CLAIM IT HAS ALL ANSWERS FOR ALL ASPECT OF LIFE AND DO NOT INVOKE GOD TO JUSTIFY PAEDOPHILIA AND BEATING OF WIFE FOR REFUSING SEX.

    that is why u have burnt billions of women.brhmnsm is hinduism and all their acts are to enslave others.hence they no fix rule.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    When are you going to get a life? How long are you going to defend this and put everything on the feet of Jews (15 million people in a world of 6.5 billion people

    benoy zoinists are not jews though some places like in isreal,they are hiding among jews.extinction of jews is their primary target.that is why they have brought them to middle east.u read the history of illuminities and freemasons.

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    If god is omniscient,he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of events using his omnipotence.But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention,which means he is not omnipotent.-Dawkins
    So here is a god who do not know what is going to happen and helplessly witness the devastation and fury of nature on his creations.
    Then there is science,which as per Shan is the only genuine mantra of today,has no clue how to contain the nuclear crisis unleashed by the tsunami..
    It is really a complex world!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @mohan my mate it isn’t complex at all . They have enough clue , even if they dont they will aquire that clue in 50yrs by one and only way that is by applying SCIENTIFIC methods to understand the problem and come up with an answer. it has been by the medical fraternity , that is the reason you are alive ,otherwise you would have long gone with typhoid , mumps measles, smallpox chicken pox , meningitis or malaria and kala azar.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    medicine and religion are different.medicine is advancing yes.but they use this to make money.it is not free it is not service.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    TTHE SECOND PARTY

    Also by Wendy Doniger

    1. Siva the Erotic Ascetic.

    2. The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology.

    3. Dreams, Illusions and other Realities

    4. Splitting the Difference: Gender and Myth in Ancient Greece and India

    5. Translation – The Rig Veda

    6. Translation – The Laws of Manu

    7. Translation – Kamasutra.

    I suggest stuff the Third Party and his pimp.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    absolutely disgusted at the very petty abuse in the last 30 posts- so ***** pointless.
    Shan- a doctor allegedly- unnecessarily brings in the holy Quran into a discussion to abuse it
    ramavtar- a ‘patriotic’ Indian allegedly- then launches into anti hindu and anti Indian abuse
    ravi- a muslim, is it?- does the same- sneers at hinduism and quotes some foreigner who may have written insulting works on ? India

    Most of us readers, silent mostly, are drawn to these blogs by the rich discussion of Syed, Gopi Sir, doc Mishra and the comments by Hegde, mohan, vinay, Sandhu
    IS THERE A MODERATOR LISTENING?????????????? If not, can u chaps lay off the pointless pointscoring

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan , This blog is for MEN NOT BOYS. So visit some sports blog.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    why not medicine blog

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    rizwan i awnser only the idiotic comments of some bloggrs like shan or if somebody attack religion.like benoy hegde.shan or s.singh.why they bring islam and muslims into discussions i dont understand.i dont bring any religion.sometime i criticize indian system,which is right.muslims are pushed to poverty ,help them to bring in national main stream.

    se babri case,even if baber made mosque on the rubbles of some temple(though it is lie)what is problem.pahle bhi pooja sthal tha abhi bhi hai.why to destroy india for that.people make wcs and latrines on the rubbles in my village i have seen.and i hate lying.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram, the Muslim boy!

    You say you are a lover of humanity; but every paragraph of you is venomous towards Indians (except muslims), jews, christians, West, East u name it.. Shed the hatred.. All are Gods children..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    all are gods children is our faith.i am only against brhmnst only because they are plundering india.see ram temple movement.bomb planting bussines.money swindling
    more important joining hand with international zoinism.
    i also critisized saudi royality and ghaddafi.they are plundering their nations also.if i say bad about sarkozys act on burka ,doen not mean i am against christians.these zoinists are craeting problems for everybody against verybody.brhmns considers india as their property not country.u are also like this.u should be fair in analysis.
    i am angry with brhmnst (not brhmns) i have seen from very close.they are bad people no doubt.

    war on terrorism is started to save saudi goverment from ossama binladen.becuse of this
    millions of muslims are killed.u dont have any sympathy for them.why.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    muslims ahve problem with jews because of palestine and with americans and europe whole world has poblems.latin american of africans are not muslims.

  • shan

    Splitting the gender islamic style, I suggest ignore the ignorant and his demented rant
    This is what happens when a man comitts adultery
    Hadith – Sahih Bukhari 8.800B, Narrated Ikrima from Ibn Abbas

    Allah’s Apostle Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said, “When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder.” ‘Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, “How is faith taken away from him?” He said, Like this,” by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, “But if HE repents, faith returns to HIM like this,” by clasping his hands again.

    Hadith – Abu Dawood #4388, Narrated Ali ibn Abu Talib

    AbuZubyan said: A woman who had committed adultery was brought to Umar. He gave orders that she should be stoned

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    AbuZubyan said: A woman who had committed adultery was brought to Umar. He gave orders that she should be stoned

    what will be good in ur opinion.radha was neighbours wife.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Stupid Ram

    What would you choose – life over death or death over life? No wonder your brothers are shutting down schools all over and forcing women to breed breed and nothing else.

    Nobody worships Rugmini, or Sathyabhama etc “the legitimately married wives of Krishna”.. Radha and krishna live eternally in songs, in worships, in music.. Bhakta Meera imagined herselfa s Radha looking for her Krishna. Radha and Krishna are liek Shakti and Shiva; soul and body, lingam and yoni, love and passion.

    Start loving everything; dont have immovable dogmas; see where it has taken youa nd your people..unfit to live in the world, zimmering with anger, dislike for everything, lack of tolerance, bewildred about the world.. The life of the sands of Arabia of 650s –it is not going to happen. Move on..Stop killing..start loving…Life is better than death. Loving is better than killing…Open your heart. Forget about how immoral hindus, christians, jews are. Morality and immorality are all built by men and not god. Live without hurting anybody, that is all.

    Dont shed tears for Radha or hindu women.. Worry about the sisters in burqua , worry about the sisters whose nose get chopped off and worry about the sisters on whom guilty verdict is handed over if they are raped by father in law, brother in law, or anybody else

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    benoy ,

    Govinda-nandini – She who gives pleasure to Govinda (Krishna)
    Govinda-mohini – She who mystifies Govinda
    Govinda-sarvasva – One to whom Govinda is the all-in-all, or everything.
    Sarva-kanta Shiromani – The crown jewel of all Krishna’s consorts
    Krishnamayi – The one who sees Krishna both within and without

    .corrct urslf.she was his beloved but wife of his neighbour and chilhood friend.krishna had 1603 wives.i think u are not indian hence know little about.
    geeta was a story written by brhmns to bring back milk sellers of western up,who have embrassd buhdhdism,as brhmns used to steal their cows, in hindu fold .characters are imaginary teaching are made in a way so that others accept brhmncl slavery and their inferior position.castes were fabricated in that scripture.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    there is no proof that he was ever borned or lived in mathura.mathura was budhhdist city
    captured by vedics when buhdhdists were extincted.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Bhagavad Gita is written by the great Veda Vyasa, one of our great great great grandfathers (although many Muslims like you claim your ancestry to the sands of Arabia). – FYI, one who denies his ancestry is doomed to perish. That is whta is happening to Pakistan..They all have been taught that they are descendents of Arabs, nothing to do with Indus Civilization, nothing to do with the great works of vedas, Upnishads, Ramayana, Mahabharatha, krishna, rama, nothing to do with Gangetic and Sindhu plains, …..

    So what if krishna has 1603 (it is actually 16008) wives? Are you suggesting that He should not be worshipped because he had so many wives or he was not a Yogi . Krishna is a true Karma Yogi ; you can learn a lot from him, however, i wont suggest you marry 16008 women; because unless you are a yogi , you will die of too much sex.

    Radha is what all women want to be.. Dance with the God, sing with the God, travel with the God, submit fully in body and mind…..So what is your beef.. Are you suggesting a new syllabus for Hindus or are you indicating Hindus are nobodys because they worship krishna and Radha, or the frozen sands of Arabia is the cultural headquarters of the world, or that Pakistan is a thriving place for literature and arts, or that Muslims are the most forward with innovations and creativity, or what… I just do not understand why you go on vomiting shi… Why cannot love humanity for a chnage..If it is not Barhmins it is jews..If it is not Aryan invaders it is westerners.. For once look into yourself and Muslims. work for the advancement of all, or at least muslims… You are going the wrong way.. You are just
    adding to their frustrations

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Bhagavad Gita is written by the great Veda Vyasa, one of our great great great grandfathers (although many Muslims like you claim your ancestry to the sands of Arabia). – FYI, one who denies his ancestry is doomed to perish. That is whta is happening to Pakistan..They all have been taught that they are descendents of Arabs, nothing to do with Indus Civilization, nothing to do with the great works of vedas, Upnishads, Ramayana, Mahabharatha, krishna, rama, nothing to do with Gangetic and Sindhu plains

    limit ur discussions to geeta. why u are talking arab etc u brhmns are first to leave india and sell india for ur gains .now let us start one by one,90%of muslims are converts have hence nothing to do with brhmns who are outsiders came to india like turks and moghuls 2000trs before us.
    vedas or upanishads are not supposed to be touched by shudras and women.muslims gave respect upanishads.dara shikoh and akbar translated them into persian languge

    The Moghul Emperor Akbar’s reign (1556–1586) saw the first translations of the Upanishads into Persian,[83][84] and his great-grandson, Dara Shikoh, produced a collection called Sirr-e-Akbar (The Greatest Mysteries) in 1657, with the help of Sanskrit Pandits of Varansi. Its introduction stated that the Upanishads constitute the Qur’an’s “Kitab al-maknun” or hidden book.[85][86] But Akbar’s and Sikoh’s translations remained unnoticed in the Western world until 1775.
    upanashids were rejected local indians,

    The Brihadaranyaka gives an unorthodox explanation of the origin of the caste-system. It says that a similar four-tier caste system existed in heaven which is now replicated on earth.[98] This has been criticized by the Dalit leader Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. He studied the philosophy of the Upanishads pragmatically and concluded that they were most ineffective and inconsequential piece of speculation and that they had no effect on the moral and social order of the Hindus.[99] Ambedkar implies that the voluminous Upanishads are a useless work because of their inability to effect any change in the caste-biased, inherently unequal Hindu society. He dismisses the Upanishads by quoting Huxley in saying that Upanishadic philosophy can be reduced to very few words. Ambedkar agrees with Huxley:

    “ In supposing the existence of a permanent reality, or “substance”, beneath the shifting series of phenomena, whether of matter or of mind. The substance of the cosmos was “Brahma”, that of the individual man “Atman”; and the latter was separated from the former only, if I may so speak, by its phenomenal envelope, by the casing of sensations, thoughts and desires, pleasures and pains, which make up the illusive phantasmagoria of life. This the ignorant, take for reality; their “Atman” therefore remains eternally imprisoned in delusions, bound by the fetters of desire and scourged by the whip of misery

    vedas were never written in india this was brought to india by aryan invader.i never saw them in the house of backwards or shudras.ram put boiling led in the ears of a shudra who was found reading them.his name was shambhook.
    ramanaya is not indian legend.it was popularize nawab wajid ali shah of lucknow when he started
    dramas of ram lila and krishna lila from baradari lucknow.
    we are not descent of arabs but we think islam is best religion.
    hindu i arabic word.u have cults.u brhmns are vedic u are not hindu.u live on lame game and did maximum harm to india.u call us voilent ,avatrs comes to help humanity.ur bhagwans comes for ethenic cleansing and all of them are loaded with deadly weapons.
    we accept that 3000 years period.show me any of yr achievent of that period big zero.can u give me any scientific proof that krishna ever existed.he is character of story.anarkali of moghul era never
    existed.brhmns has given very bad picture of krishna,because he was blue.only white is divine.all other other colours belongs to enemy.they say he had 1603 wives.where is their palaces.where mahabharata happened.now with excavation u can easily find truth.tell me any hospital road built by them.chanakaya was master of wars inwhich billions people killed.
    anyhow we respect ur religion and ur ancestory.why u people start ur arguments with 650 arbs etc etc.pak punjabis are proud of being punjabi not arabs.every race has his time.arabs were leaders of world till 14 century.then turkey became super power of the world.after rennaince europe europe has taken lead.budhdhists have done lot in every feet bt they were chased out of india.u call spiritual fascism as non voilence.
    but ur contribution to development is not much.but when rat marches with elephant ,he feels himself the same.
    i am not against any race.dont fight with me geeta has shown blue krishna as womanizer and radha his lover.it is true that he was neighbours wife.krishna was imaginary figure he never existed.u want make research.
    we respect ur period but u abuse our period by rewriting history and inserting all type of lies into it.
    i dont abuse jews but zoinists i hate who are perpetuating voilence and siege on palestanians.or bankers family who are taking america to wars,killing innocents and financially destrying america.i also hate those hindus who are plundering india.
    pakistan ruling class consists of worst people of world.any derogatory adjective is less to their deeds.but common people of pakistan is as good or as bad as we are.

    what u people do is intellectual goondaism.why uare worried if i convert.i am not brhmn i acan not be brhmn so what is ur problem if i read geeta or quran.

    What would you choose – life over death or death over life? No wonder your brothers are shutting down schools all over and forcing women to breed breed and nothing else

    maoists are doing same inindia.thsi is non sense.women of bagladesh is more educated than women of west bengal.participation of women in politics and other field is more in bangladesh and pakistan than india.see international reports.

    u should condemn shan also.why is he bringing religion.i can write volumes.

    i

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    syedbhai, your comment- ‘As no temple or any other structure was demolished in Ayodhaya to make way for the Babri masjid’ goes against the Ayodhya judgement
    @Benoy, why tangle with ramavtar, he is VERY FIXED in his ways. You make very valuable observations – save it for the others

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    dr saheb pls read judgement.all three judges have different judgement.one of them clearly said
    that no temple was destroyed.tulsidaas was in ayodhya same time.
    now maharashtra goverment is demolitioning hundreds of illegal temples.in arab world i have seen thousands of mosque being demolished.
    zoinists wants permanent hatred between communiies to get 5th columnist.at the end it is india which lost.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Raj
    @syed, yardstick for a terrorist attack or a riot is just the result,
    that’s how you started, when you said there was no islamic terrorism before bombay bombings.
    & you didnot consider riots, as only few hindus were killed.

    Have you ever ever heard of bhagalpur riots, nellie massacre, maliana massacre…. to name just a very few???? Here muslims were slaughtered in hundreds and thousands WITHOUT PROVOCATION. Going by your yardstick these can now be classified as terrorist attacks by hindus, right?
    I have never mentioned such issues as I believe in looking ahead. But with ppl like you, who blame muslims for each and everything, such things need to be flagged and discussed.

    “Muslims wanted to humiliate hindus by building the babri masjid”
    If so, then they have a strange way of going about it. Are you aware that shias have unilaterally without any pressure, offered to demolish the babri masjid and built a temple in its place.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed , very aptly said, regarding Bhagalpur, this is where lalu yadav kicks in. My maternal side are all from Bhagalpur, I have breathed the air in bura nath lane, where there used to stand a maszid at the entrance to the mohallah , and at the far end used to be very beautiful temple , where the river used to touch the steps of the temple ONLY during the monsoon. You have made me really nostalgic. Also My teens ,I remember .My granddad had a huge house , but just behind were small houses all inhabited by muslims. My grandad was a character worth writing a novel about. He hated gandhi, was a jan sanghi , yet HAD AN INCREDIBLE SOFT CORNER FOR THESE POOR MUSLIMS. In fact gave them shelter and hid them in his house during PRE PARTITION RIOTS One of his jems “In my next life I want to be born as a dog in America”(He was mad about america.) .Also it is in these lanes I saw the most beautiful girls. And as you have made out by now , i have come across girls of all races and colour on this earth..Even or particularly the maid servants had such a delicate beauty. I remember a vegetable seller mousi(muslim,one eye probably catarct ) was an incredible saleswomen in modern parlance .
    she could sell sand to arabs ,by her words and guile.
    Also the tailor , near the station . he was also muslim,there were loads of hindu tailors as well , but this guy was bloody intelligent which showed in his craft and morever had such a disarming smile and incredible it may appear I used to get my dress tailored by him during holidays , to waear them in Calcutta..Looking back , IT FEELS STRANGE ALL THIS HINDU MUSLIM ANIMOSITY
    I was devasted to learn that the mosque was razed to the ground during the riots.These Riots were all in congress jamana , and bramhins were at the helm. This is the only lasting legacy og Lalu .WHEN INDIA BURNED POST BABRI,BIHAR WAS A PLACE OF SANITY.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Benoy
    “No wonder your brothers are shutting down schools all over and forcing women to breed breed and nothing else.”

    Is population planning against Islam? OK, lets see what the Islamic Republic of Iran is doing…

    From wikipedia..
    “The Islamic Republic of Iran has a comprehensive and effective program of family planning…………By 2007 the growth rate had declined to 0.7 percent per year, with a birth rate of 17 per 1,000 persons and a death rate of 6 per 1,000.[1] Reports by the UN show birth control policies in Iran to be effective with the country TOPPING THE LIST OF GREATEST FERTILITY DECREASES”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed-

    You are absolutely right about the effective birth control in Iran. Does the Persian background contribute anything here? Or is it possible that Shia philosophy being a bit more meditational and inward-looking to individual development and strength believes influencing others through intellectual strength and not on numerical strength (one that Sunnis and Wahabis seem to promote).

    On a related subject – do you think Iran can hold off people movement for long? Obviously, in the current sitruation, geopolitically, it makes all the sense to hold off and be “on the top”.. If I weer the king of KSA, this is what i will call the nightmare scenario – Iran staying put in its current form, and everybody else being toppled one by one.

    What is unfolding in that region is unbelievable. Shows aspirations and freedom do not have a religion.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Mishrajee,
    I have not read the judgement but I believe the judges have a split verdict. No one can say, after hundreds of years, whether the masjid was built on the ruins of the foundation of another structure or whether the earlier structure was demolished for the masjid.

    What comes in here is faith. Shiaism DOES NOT allow for acts which create disharmony between communities. Incidentally are you aware there is a ruling on shias against eating of cow meat in India on the grounds that as this would create discord between communities, as the cow is worshipped by the majority community.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed-

    I have always held an opinion that the worldwide Islamic reformation or revival will germinate from the Shias of india. The nawabs of Lucknow have done more to Indian music than any other kings (not that that is the reason). Shias of india, for most part, have been able to absorb what is good in India, and in that process made their framework an adapting and absorbing one, very much like India itself, a sustainable and growing one.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi you have a very feeble knowledge about the schism that exists between shia and sunnis.everything shias do are an ananthema to sunnis , the twain shall never meet. Though they may attract more to its fold. The shias view on alcohol is that in quoran nowhere in quoran does it say that one should not drink alcohol ,but says there are lots of bad effects of alcohol.
    Shias interpret this as so long you are within limits you are okay. Also these sufi shrines and muslc are IDOL WORSHIP according to one punjabi pakistani doctor i met in UK.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    As often happens on Zia’s blog, we tend to talk about everything under the sun but the topic of the blog itself.
    That said,
    we should refrain from languages that promote “us vs them”.. doing so means playing into the hands of exclusionists like Zia Haq who want separate schools, colleges rather than argue for mixed upbringing and shared spaces. In my personal experience, I have seen the benefits that have accrued to my own children of growing up surrounded by children of all sorts of religions, nationalities and races. My elder daughter’s class has two Muslim children who are doing exceedingly well academically and are very well integrated in the class.
    @Raj, there is no dispute that plenty of misguided Muslims are doing all they can to take their community back to middle ages. But, they, in my humble opinion are not what Rizwan, Syed, Shoeb etc would call “our brothers”..
    @Syed, we were at the Qutb Minar last evening. It is indisputable that a Hindu structure existed there. But, I agree, like in the Babri Masjid, no one can conslusively prove if the Mandirs were destroyed and new structures built on them or as the Archaeological Survey inscriptions on the site say “structures from those ruins were liberally re-used in building the new structures”.
    I wish we – Hindus/ Muslims/ “don’t cares” just let go and move on. The reactions from the vast majority of the people from all religions to the Ayodhya judgement have been one of relief and all really want to move on.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Correction, the comment on “brother”s should have been for Benoy..

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ashish, looks like I have cured or made better your insomnia. can you please elaborate on what basis you claim there definitely used to exist a hindu structure where now stands the wonder built by Quotobuddin Aibak.
    @Raj and Syed, That muslims razed thousands of temple needs to be REPHRASED
    FOREIGN MUSLIM INVADERS RAZED, these are genetically ,racially miles apart from the majority of muslims that inhabit india. THEY DID BECAUSE THAT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME , IF HINDUS WERE CONQUERERS AND SPECIFICALLY IF I WAS COMMANDING A HINDU ARMY CONQUERING IRAN, FIRST THING I WILL GO FOR IS THE WOMEN OF SHIRAZ(If not anything you can praise my honesty, also I had a iranian patient recently who said shiraz is famous for its pretty women)
    NELLIE MASSACRE. This was a total wipe out of not muslims but BANGLADESHI MUSLIMS WHO HAD DRIFTED IN POST 1971.Why I say Bangladeshi , because it probably had not much to do with religion but more to do with assamese turning MINORITY in their lands.
    The assamese had also shown massive prejudice against the HINDU BENGALEES, as they used to occupy allcollege and govt posts. I know scores of family who could not live in UPPER ASSAM ,and setled in calcutta.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    How do I claim that there was a Hindu structure .. well, just go there, there still exists remnants of the architecture. Also, read the helpful inscriptions by the ASI.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    While it is difficult not to get passionate about your own history, do try to find time and read James Mitchener’s “The Source”.
    New waves of people, cultures, religions come and go and often build on the ruins of the past. Many of the historical transitions have been violent; in all parts of the world.
    One approach is to hark back to instances in the past and score points. The other is to draw the appropriate lessons and understand that many of these so called mass murders and genocides and so on, will probably not even register a blip 100 years later.
    Religion has always been a divisive force- as it is a matter of faith that transcends logical and temporal considerations. In my opinion, currently, the Muslims are probably the most religious community (I know averaging is a bad thing), and the current thought among the community seems to be to hunker down, batten down the hatches and retreat into a ghetto.
    I read in TOI today that Jamaat e Ulema has done it again- issued a fatwa that watching TV, movies and using contraception is against Islam. Go figure.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ashish-

    Foreign Affairs magazine has an excellent article on “Pakistan’s identity crisis”. how Pakistan has become a hunkered down society. It should be a must read for any politician or voter who wants religion as the defining platform for a nation.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Gopi, is the foreign affairs mag online? Do you have a link to the article?
    I read Ateesh Taseer in the current issue of India Today; scary, the picture that emerges of Pakistan.
    As he puts it, while the rest of the Muslim world to Pakistan’s west seems to be waking to a life of freedom, Pakistan seems to be sinking deeper into anarchy.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    It is also known as seige mentality.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ ashish at 12.47 pm above, excellent comment. I am also disgusted by how this blog degenerates into name calling.
    This echoes Riswans comment above – “”"”absolutely disgusted at the very petty abuse in the last 30 posts- so ***** pointless.
    Shan- a doctor allegedly- unnecessarily brings in the holy Quran into a discussion to abuse it
    ramavtar- a ‘patriotic’ Indian allegedly- then launches into anti hindu and anti Indian abuse
    ravi- a muslim, is it?- does the same- sneers at hinduism and quotes some foreigner who may have written insulting works on ? India

    Most of us readers, silent mostly, are drawn to these blogs by the rich discussion of Syed, Gopi Sir, doc Mishra and the comments by Hegde, mohan, vinay, Sandhu”"”"
    —————
    Guys, keep the blog refined

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Balwinder

    Just to correct you.

    The only person who gets personal and abusive in this Blog is SHAN. The rest of abusive behaviour is as a direct retaliation to his relentless personal insults. This has been pointed out to Shan by many people including, Yourself, Rizwan, Dr Mishra and his only fan Raju Kurien.

    Shan is a Doctor; we should take his word for it. How does it make any difference if he is a Doctor or not. The discussion should focus on the points he makes and not his profession. However, he does bring his profession into discussions as a brag and therefore gets flack back for being such a crass individual.

    Ramautar – In my humble opinion is the most intelligent contributor to this blog. In comparison to him, ME and other contributors are pedestrian. He is attempting to move the very basic paradigm that we take for granted before any discussion starts. His use of Zionism as a concept is radical, for him it is not restricted to Jewish people, but is also visible in elements of Indian society.

    Ram Autar is as patriotic an Indian as any of us are. Just because he is critical of some aspects of our society does not make him any less patriotic than any one else.

    As regards me. You are absolutely right, I am without a doubt a Pakistani Muslim, who lives in a slum in Karachi, just off Nai Sarak in a locality called Dehra-ul-Doon. From my Jhuggi I am able to see both the domes of Havelock Road Sikh Temple. One Golden and the other White. I call them Miri/Piri respectively. I will be doing further research to let you know which one is Miri and which one Piri.

    Oh yes also I am on Dole.

    My susu is nanga and my 5th wife calls me a cretin, with a lot of justification.

    I have sired so many children that even I have no count of them. This I did under instruction from my local radicalised Mullah.

    Finally, Wendy Doniger is a Sanskrit Scholar and a very well respected Historian. Though Raju Kurien does not rate her, but then he is not very fond of Noam Chomsky either. She has never written anything vaguely insulting about India. That is not to say that some HINDU FUNDO’s have not taken offence, when she does not re-inforce deeply held Hindu Clichés.

    Five people nodding heads at each other does not make for a good discussion

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Shan is not just a doctor , that is panditji, shan is a surgeon, and as they used to say after conferring the fellowship at royal college of surgeons , “licence to kill”. Shan cannot stand C R A P .
    Shan doesn’t moan , cry wolf , is never winging , but will give back as good as he gets.
    Shan is a metaphor for rationality humanity and truth.(OK that’s going way too far)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan is also delusional

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities.
    Christian Nestell Bovee

    Ravi Reply:

    Corrigendum.

    In the above post I mistakenly used Raju Kurien’s name when I meant to use Binoy Hegde name.

    Raju my apologies to you.

    Regards

    Ravi

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    Mishraji, your questions and different answers for that showed; even neutrality is a relative term.
    Most of the Hindus who consider themselves neutral believe, Advani do not owe any responsibility with terrorist attacks in Mumbai, though many of them consider coach burning to be the reason for Godhra riots. On the other side, there are people who consider Advani also responsible for riots and who do not place coach burners with saffron group, as the people behind Gujarat riots.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    This has to be considered with in the context, that Violence and Riots in particular, are a vote consolidating tactic which the RSS and its associates practice.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Agree with the first half. Violence and Riots in particular, are a vote consolidating tactic. Next half, agree partially.
    “which the RSS and its associates practice”
    Do you think, they are the only one? That means you don’t know Congress. You don’t know Sharad Pawar.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    No I did not mean that RSS is the only one, regretably Congress have also done, but not regularly do it and not with the same gusto as the RSS and its subsidiaries do.

    I am aware that before Independence Congress used to have a Garam Dal, S.C. Bose was a part of it and if my memory serves me right so was Bal Gangadhar Tilak

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Well, Muslims in kerala also have resorted to violence as a vote gathering technique. Six young Muslims died three weeks ago while the bombs (they were manufacturing) exploded. The rumour is they were building bombs to use just before the upcoming eassembly elections to create a stir so Muslims will continue to vote for Muslim League

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    these small thing happens everywhere.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Vinay, I am beginning to like your posts- “”"”If Shia Islam was that tolerant, then Zoroastrianism and Christianity need not have to fade away from Iran. Bahmani (Deccan) Sultanate was Shia, which attacked and destroyed Vijayanagar along with its temples (I will not assign all the blame on them. Allegedly there were some Hindu factors too). Tipu Sultan in believed to be Shia, who was the only one ruler to destroy churches in Kerala. But the same fellow also gave protection to Sringeri Mutt. Just trying to say, we can’t generalise anything or anybody.”"”"”

    I know Syed means well, but he tends to look at Shias thru a rose tinted prism.
    As Mishrajee said-
    “”"Sometimes as in the case of ramavtar, what we want to believe in, and what is correct, are 2 separate things. It may apply to me too.”"”"
    well said mishraji and vinay

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    he was home minister,jaffery called him many times.modi awnserd TOO ABHI JEEVIT HAI.

    THEY SHOULD GO TO HAGUE TO FACE TRIAL FOR HIS DEEDS AGAINST HUMANITY.I AM SURE THEY WILL go.killers of sikh has been ask to newyork.under brhmnsm fair trial is not possible.nobody even regrets.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    If a muslim ruler ruled over India, where more than 90% of the people who payed his tax were Hindus and if the ruler builds a Mosque, then will Hindus get any credit for the building or not? This question came to me with Syed’s comment “Shias have built more temples than hindus have built mosques (if any)”.

    “No Shia in India has ever destroyed any place of worship, period”.
    Very similar to RSS faith a couple of years ago, a Hindu can’t be a terrorist. Both arguments fail to recognise a rotten apple in the barrel (may be, just one).
    If Shia Islam was that tolerant, then Zoroastrianism and Christianity need not have to fade away from Iran. Bahmani (Deccan) Sultanate was Shia, which attacked and destroyed Vijayanagar along with its temples (I will not assign all the blame on them. Allegedly there were some Hindu factors too). Tipu Sultan in believed to be Shia, who was the only one ruler to destroy churches in Kerala. But the same fellow also gave protection to Sringeri Mutt. Just trying to say, we can’t generalise anything or anybody.
    I have already stated, Hindus have no problem in accepting and respecting non controversial Muslim characters. But as long as Hindus are expected to accept people like Mir Baqi or Aurangzeb as tolerant and secular, Muslims remain native but Islam will struggle to find acceptace of majority natives.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    If a muslim ruler ruled over India, where more than 90% of the people
    they were victim of brhmnsm.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    vinay ,Mir Baqi or Aurangzeb as tolerant and secular, Muslims remain native but Islam will struggle to find acceptace of majority natives.

    what have they done tell me.u accept us or not ,it is on our foot.reality is this that u(high caste) are most hated in india.we dont take.pity.we are here and u have to know how to live with us.we will not change.u ahve to correct.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    This post is with reference to Singh’s words, Ram and Sita were not “Hindus”, Ramayana was not Hindu epic.

    Agree. Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey belongs to what? Judaism, Christianity or Greece? But then one more question. Since when we (not outsiders) started to call ourselves Hindus? I mean, historically when was the word Hindu used first time by the kings to describe themselves? When Rana Pratap fought with Akbar, did he consider himself a Hindu fighting with Muslim or just a Rajput fighting against invading Mughals (similar to India fighting later with British)? Same with Shivaji; A Maratha or a Hindu? (I am aware of some Peshwa son who was converted to Islam who could not be brought back to Hinduism. So Hinduism must have been coined by then. Or was it?)

    Historians of course say, Buddha went against Hinduism. I presume, he went against social hierarchy in India. (Strangely no religion is attributed to Roman, which also exhibited no central belief, just a mixture of fragmented rituals and traditions collected over the years, very similar to Indian). Forget Buddha, did Nanak at least use the word Hindu?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay-

    I believe, the term “Hindu” was in use 2000-2500 years ago. The land grants given to early Christians (St Thomas and co) talks about Hindu king of Cranganore. Of course, Adi Sankara, when he took his epic cross-country travel, there was the word Hindu and Sanatan Dharma, but no India although the concept of “bharath varsha” was there..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    arabs used to call people from rsind river as sindhu.that is how word hindu has come.fraud of hindu as religion was created by rss zoinist.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So taking it back to the context when the statement was first made by S Singh, the Rama was not a Hindu, etc.

    Is Ram a Hindu god. Or have Hindu’s adopted him. Was Ramrajay inhabited by Hindu’s or is it a fanciful notion projected into our past by present day Hindu’s.

    This question could be analogous to asking if Jesus Christ was a Christian.

    Many a people will tell you that he was a Jew or alternatively, he was the 1st Christian. Or is it that St Paul is the first Christian.

    By extension can any person who starts a religion be considered as being of that religion?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    The first Christian may be one of the apostles (St Paul included) or it can even be 300 years after when Roman Catholic Church was founded.

    FYI Christianity in kerala was there even before Roman Catholic Church and christianity in europe.

    S Singh Reply:

    Vinay

    My objection was, how a “learned” person like Doniger can say Sia, the “first Hindu wife……”. I was just pointing that there was no word Hindu in those days; Ramayana does not contain that word, essentially indicating commonality of human beings

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Not sure what your objection is.

    So are you suggesting that Wendy Doniger is WRONG in saying that Sita was a Hindu wife.

    The implication here being; it is true for a present day Hindu Wife to be re-united with her husband in heaven.

    But it is not ok to suggest that Sita could have been expected to be re-united with Ram in heaven, for the simple reason, she was not a Hindu wife. Since, at the time in question, there was no such thing as a Hindu.

    And by that logic you suggest that Wendy Doniger is wrong.

    Excuse me if I take her considered word over your gibberish.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    May I suggest that you read this again.

    Later Sita enters the earth.

    Sita comes from another world to a mortal king, bears him children, is mistreated by him, and leaves him forever, with only the twin children to console him.

    Sita walks out on Rama in the end (as Urvashi does in the Veda but not in the Brahmanas), an extraordinary move for a Hindu wife. Moreover, unlike the paradamatic good Hindu wife, Sita very definitely is not reunited with her husband in heaven. For she goes down into the earth, returning to her mother, he goes (back) up to heaven when he dies years later, returning to Vishnu.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    No mythology has ever talked about Rama’s death. krishna’s death, yes by the arrow of a hunter.

    The story is Rama just walks off to Sarayoo river. Nothing about his death, nothing about his joining Vishnu is mentioned in any books written so far..

    So what is your point?
    What I said was that for Wendy D to use “Hindu wife” to depict Sita, Sita was not a Hindu wife, since neither Ramayana nor Rama nor Valmiki nor Vishawamitra nor Guha nor Laxman, nor Ravan nor Mandodari nor Sugreeva nor Hanuman ever uttered the word Hindu this or Hindu that.

    Ramayana story theoretically happens in Treta Yuga, the second of the four yugas articulated by ancient saints.

    .

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    My point is that you are a pedant.

    So Ram was born, THREE Judges in India Hvae said that.

    If he was born in a human form – as the poster sold on the PATRI clearly suggests that he was – the would it be un-reasonable to expect that he died, even if the MYTH making EPIC did not explicitly state.

    Considering he is supposed to be an AVTAR of Vishnu, then I assume he would return to being Vishnu again in Heaven.

    Ramyana does state that EARTH opened up and Sita entered it, never to be seen again.

    I can give you close to a 1000 links where Ramayna is described as a Hindu Epic. Whilst the people on Ramrajya may have not been described as Hindu’s by their contemporaries, but their present day successors are called Hindus and by a process of near infinite regression it is not un reasonable to suggest that the people who lived in Ramrajay were Hindu’s and that Sita was a Hindu Wife, further more a model one of that.

    S Singh Reply:

    So, having lin ks make everything hunky dorey.. There will be million links indicating Muslims are terrorists. Does that mean Muslims are terrorists? (in fact it will be more than a million links!)

    Ramayana is an Indian epic. Hindus obviously consider it one of their treasures. Many Hindus worship jesus christ, lighting lamps and candles.. That does not mean they are christians. Many Hindus worship in many Dargahs. That does not mean theya re Muslims (although they may be following the “good” aspects of What Mohamed said. Hindus go and perform the anuual rites at Velankanni Mata in Tamil Nadu. That does not make them nuns.

    “Their present day successors are called Hindus ” — all Indians, including Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, christians etc are their presnt day successors, except people like Sonia Gandhi who does not have genetical Indian gene.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    One more pedantic response.

    Some Muslims are terrorists, are they not? No links necessary here. No one has denied that some Muslims are TERRORISTS. It is you the ARCH ISLAMOPHOBE who says they are ALL terrorists.

    Are you saying that Ramyana is N O T a H I N D U Epic.

    Many HINDUS worship Jesus Christ, now that is a news to me. I would love you to expand on that one. So you mean at night the kneel in front of their bed and say Hail Mary’s. I suggest you consult your drug dealer, he is passing you some duff stuff mate.

    As far as going to Dargha’s is concerned, that is just touristic stuff, just as some muslims follow the Ganesh procession through the streets of Mumbai. That is the beauty of India.

    It would be true to say ALL Indians are their successors, but not all of their successors BELIEVE RAM to be GOD.

    SO IS RAM A HINDU GOD OR NOT??

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    On your point that “Sonia Gandhi who does not have genetical Indian gene.”

    I am of the opinion that she probably share more of her genes with half of Indians.

    Here is some scientific thinking behind that.

    US and Indian scientists took blood samples from 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups in India, representing 13 states, all six language families as well as tribal groups and castes.

    By examining the volunteers’ DNA, two ancestral populations emerge, which dominate the Indian genome today, the researchers say.

    “Different Indian groups have inherited 40% to 80% of their ancestry from a population that we call the Ancestral North Indians, who are related to western Eurasians, and the rest from the Ancestral South Indians, who are not related to any group outside India,” says Harvard Medical School geneticist David Reich.

    The north-south finding is in line with a scenario that suggests a small number of venturers, the so-called Austro-Asiatic people, first moved into the sub-continent about 60,000 years ago.

    This would suggest that the TRUE Indians from the Ramrajay days are the South Indians and not the North Indians.

    shan Reply:

    @ravi, the pakistani or akali SOCRATES, sita went into the bosom of earth, because that is where she came from. If you are a pakistani or a sikh I dont blame you for your ignorance, if you are a hindu punjabi then also i can’t blame for they dont have a script and nirad choudhuri informs us they knew about their religion from urdu sources.
    The story is Raja janak (that iswhy sita’s name is janaki , daughter of janak) while ploughing his field accidently let the plough damage an egg in the earth ,whence from sita appeared.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    The lobotomised semi trained butcher. Progeny of his mother’s incest with her own son.

    So which bit of what I have said contradicts of what you have said.

    Nowhere I mentioned anything about Sita’s birth.

    The POINT – which you completely missed – was about Ram going to Heaven and Sita going into Earth. No happy ever after here.

    So I guess your LUN GOAT is getting tighter again. Loosen it and let some fresh air – like ability to read – in.

    Sorry Rizwan and Balwinder, it had to be done

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, the product of paid sex, SITA HAD TO GO BACK TO BOSOM OF EARTH FOR THAT IS WHERE SHE CAME FROM , it’s a poetry for god’s sake, you low life beneath the stairs working class pellet

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan the mother shagger.

    It may be poetry to you, to S Singh it is religious scripture.

    shan Reply:

    @The cuckold called ravi, ram is god like a stone is god. Anything or anybody is god in hinduism , difficult to appreciate for a pakistani.
    thus the saying thou art god. The concept of god in hinduism is tad complex. It is param bramha or bramhan into which atma is ought to dissolve.
    ram is more of a hero , a model son , a model father , a model ruler a model husband rolled into one .So this is just her worship. There were several ARYAN so called gods, INDRA, BARUN etc , but scholars beleive they were essentially ARYAN generals.lord Krishna was NOT ARYAN thus dark , but gave aryans hard time thus was elevated to godhood.
    NOW GO AND SNIFF WENDY’S POSTERIOR.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    The giver of Australian kiss to his own mother.

    As far as I can see it, and that is a lot further than your masturbation-affected eyes would allow you to see, Ram is a Bhagwan, which roughly translated is a GOD.

    Further more – oh you son of a chandal – he is an avatar of Vishnu and therefore a GOD.

    The disgorging of Sita by fire was an act by which all the gods reminded Ram of his own divinity.

    Stick to crude butchery and just practice removing of varicose veins, for that is all you are good for.

    You go and suck Patrick French’s todger. You TWAT

    shan Reply:

    ravi, the ****, ******** receiver from his mother , ram has been depicted as a coward ,who resorts to trickery in killing meghnad , son of ravan. If he was divine , then meghnad badh kabya would not portray as it deed.also in Buddha jataka , Ram is a ordinary soul who receives enlightment in the forest and imparts it to his father and brothers.
    now go and suck wendy’s used tampons. you wanker.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan the giver of Episiotomy scar to his own mother during FISTING.

    I do not give a phlying ***** as to what you think.

    The undisputed fact is that Ram is an Avatar of Vishnu and thereby a GOD. What you think, who sodding well cares.

    You swallower of Patrick French’s fresh steaming turds.

  • shan

    @vinay, this is what al biruni thoughtand noted in his kitab tahqiqma li-l-HIND.
    Hindus at the utmost , they fight with words , but they will never stake their soul or body or their property on religious controversy.
    Contrast this with ISLAM, and the only reason is because it is an ORGANISED CONGREGATIONAL RELIGION.
    The mirror image you will see with sikhs , THE SAME RELIGIOUS PASSION , the same ORGANISED CONGREGATIONAL CHARACTER.
    This is beant singh’sson in his own words
    “what my father did was a great thing for the honour of sikhs”
    The things the family had been given ; a big cardboard cutout painting of father , silver plated cups commending his action , an admiring plaque from the sikh foundation of virginia.
    This is the reason why when Nehru was asked what was his most difficult task. “CREATE A SECULAR STATE OUT OF A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS COUNTRY”
    (All sources above from the book India, A portrait of 1.2 billion people, by Patrick French)

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    independence of india was celeberated by muslims with the mascare of their 250000 brothers in jammucriminal.raja and his army alongwith rss killed almost every muslim in city of jammu.brhmncl zoinism is walking under grab of hinduism.
    tharparkar a hindu majority city in pakistan is not very far from ahmadabad,but no body was touched.
    shan u are still innocent.

    till in dia get liberated from these criminals,real progress is not possible.religion is good.godless zoinists are far more dangerous than religious state.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram, the lost Muslim:

    your group will be numero ono if one takes a count of who killed who…
    Well, that is history..

    You talked about Tharpakar and otehr “Hindu” communities in Pakistan. Can you tell me what was the percentage of Hindus in Pakiland at the time of partition and now?

    Can the remaining hindus and Christians there really live under the blasphemy law, because anything they do can eb considered blasphemous?

    Any learned verdict on the killing of the only christian minister in the **** cabinet?

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Any learned verdict on the killing of the only christian minister in the **** cabinet

    for the same reason governor was killed.he was wrong .he was given z security but he was not availing this.

    Can the remaining hindus and Christians there really live under the blasphemy law, because anything they do can eb considered blasphemous

    but no one ever punished.as muslims themselve dont want this law.

    You talked about Tharpakar and otehr “Hindu” communities in Pakistan. Can you tell me what was the percentage of Hindus in Pakiland at the time of partition and now

    still they have 70 lacs hindus.tharparkar is on border but nobody cross.as they feel secured and in pakistan hindu means rich.people of pakistan are as good or as bad as us.when sikh goes they are welcomed like brothers.i know one old lady has gone there for one month she stayed 6 months because of punjabi hospitality &effection.
    i hate parivar because they`spread hate and lies in the mend of our youth.
    after partition pakistan has not seen any riot.all sikh places of worship and temples are intact.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    hegde neither u know about islam nor about hinduism not history of hinduism.u are parrot of parivar.100 parrots will sing the same song (lies)in the same rythm in same pitch at the same time.
    i am brought up among them.i know them.my closest friend was one misra.everyday he will make joke on them.now i dont see shakhas i think people are desrting them.

  • Binoy Hegde

    ram, if 15 million jews can control and manipulate your 1.5 billion brothers and sisters — then you guys deserve that according to natural selction.

    Shut up and work to improve the lives of your bro and sis instead of laying the blame on the jews and brahmins feet. Do something instead of blabbering.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    they are controlling ur brothers and sisters as well.

    Shut up and work to improve the lives of your bro and sis instead of laying the blame on the jews and brahmins feet. Do something instead of blabbering

    minority is always better than majority.microminority of brhmns and jews are better remaining are ricksha pullers and clercs.they too are victims of zoinism.

    regarding blame on zoinist,

    it is not blame it is truth.they are shaitans and responsible of all human tragedies.see japan.

    will u support if ask for hague type trial of those who murdered two hundred and fifty thousand innocents in 1947.this mascare was led by godless zoinists.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Gopi,
    “The land grants given to early Christians (St Thomas and co) talks about Hindu king of Cranganore.”
    Hindu term used 2000-2500 years ago is interesting. I will repeat my question. Did St Thomas and co (who were outsiders) called the king a “Hindu” (which is nothing unusual, an outsider labelling us as “Hindus”) or the king also recognised himself as a “Hindu”?

    With Adi Shankara; I have read his Manisha Panchakam. Shankara supposed to have met Shiva who was disguised as a Chandala on the lanes of Kashi. When Shankara asks him to move, Chandala makes him realise everyone are equal and Shankara touches Chandala’s feet. The verse Shankara writes later says the sky, the sun, river, the soul in the body remain same in one and all. But there is no word, they both belong to same religion; Hindu. But I have not read all his works. Kindly correct me, if I am wrong.

    @Shan,
    Islam, Sikhism being organised congregational religion.
    Hinduism is not a religion per se like Islam or Christianity. No founder, no common practise, no common God, nothing. For one minute, forget an umbrella called Hinduism over all these communities in India. Treat every fragment of faith and practise (be it Yadav, Jat, Brahmin whatever.. ) as different religion (instead of caste) similar to Muslims and Christian. Top it with no nationalism. That is what was India, before Mughals. Just individual communities, their own practises. What I want to know is, when was this umbrella called Hinduism was launched to unify us (we are still not united, which is a different thing!)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Here is my contribution.

    There are several objections to the use of any single term to denote what, for the sake of argument, we will call Hindus and Hinduism.

    Hindus did not develop a strong sense of themselves as members of a distinct religion until there were other religions against which they needed to define themselves, like the invisible man in the Hollywood film who could be seen only when he was wearing clothing that was not a part of him. Until as late as the seventeenth century, many Indian rulers used titles that identified them with a divinity or with their pre-eminence over other rulers or with their personal qualities or with all their subjects, but not merely with the Hindus. Cultures, traditions, and beliefs cut across religious communities in India, and few people defined themselves exclusively through their religious beliefs or practices; their identities were segmented on the basis of locality, language, caste, occupation and sect. Only after the British began to define communities by their religion, and foreigners in India tended to put people of different religions into different ideological boxes, did many Indians follow suit, ignoring the diversity of their own thoughts and asking themselves which of the boxes they belonged in. Only after the seventeenth century did a ruler us the title lord of the Hindus (Hindupati).

    From Page 24 and 25 The Hindus by Wendy Doniger

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    wendy mare , is a s h i t. her words” and few people defined themselves exclusively through their religious beliefs or practices; their identities”
    This blows all cover of this stupid mare.vaishnavites and Shaktas (that is worshipper of shakti,kali , tantric) were like chalk and cheese , ONE STRICTLY VEGETARIAN , OTHER STRICTLY NON VEGETARIAN.not only that there fought mini wars for their beleif system, never married outside the fold STILL NOT EXCLUSIVE, and they were huge chunks of hindu population.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    You are absolutely right, it does blow all cover from you rudimentary inability to read and comprehend.

    Read again. I will make it easy for you. I will isolate the sentence rather than just the phrase taken out of its context as a stimulus for your rant.

    ” Cultures, traditions, and beliefs cut across religious communities in India, and few people defined themselves E X C L S I V E L Y through their religious beliefs or practices; their identities were segmented on the basis of locality, language, caste, occupation and sect.”

    Now explain as to how this contradicts your assertions.

    Remember to loosen your Lun Goat, it is no good for you.

    Sorry Dr Mishra, it has to be done.

    shan Reply:

    @geezer ravi, that is precisely my contention IT IS NOT FEW PEOPLE , HUGE CHUNKS SCATTERED ALL OVER INDIA, AS dispartate as bania gandhi a vaishnabh , and the vaishnabhs of bengalseparated by 1500 miles.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    That is also my contention that you lack even the rudimentary skills of reading and understanding.

    The word “few” here is used in exactly the opposite sense to the one you are deducing.

    By saying “few people”, what she means is not many people.

    So this time without any abuse I suggest, read the sodding sentence again.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    britishers are the creators of hinduism.other wise this dont complete the basic requirement of a religion.supreme court has already passed verdict on this.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    Travancore Kings were called “padmanabha dasa” (servants of Padmanabha, one who has lotus in his belly button, Vishnu). They gave lands and allowed the Christians to worship the way they wanted. Seven churches were constructed by St Thomas and his people, in Kodungallor (the port of entry–in those days it is called Mozhir??), Paravoor, Palayoor, kokkamangamlam, Niranam, Nilackal, and Kollam.

    The ancestors of present day Hindus, all across India, believed in Sanatan Dharma, which presently used to define Hinduism. All saints sucha s Agastya, Vasishta etc advised and counselled their fellow citizens to live according to Sanatan Dharma.

    AdiShankara’s criss-cross was to reestablish the philosophial superiority of Mimamsa and advida etc over ritualistic practices. He had the concept of “Bharath Varsha”, in the sense he went east and west and north , had debates with scholars all over including the formidable wife of Mandan Mishra in indore on sex. He intuitively knew the land is wide and large, that he has to win over other philosphers (so the philosophy must have had same roots) and eventually won the “sarva jnana peetham” in Kashmir.

    He was a Shiva worshipper,a s well as Sakti worshipper (he consecrated Kollur Amma temple in your state). But most of his brief life was spent on philosphical arguments, mainly to establish Advaita, against Dvaita philosophy. I do not think he ever used the word hindu; however he used Bharath, Bharath Varsha, rishi, sanatan dharma etc

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Gopi,
    Thanks, I had not realised the significance of Kollur temple (Shakta temple by a Shiva worshipper). The other temple Shankara built in Sringeri is for Saraswati, not Shakti. It does not attract all sects of people like Kollur temple do).

    When I spoke about Hinduism as a religion I just meant, it was not like one faith which was later divided into sub faiths (like Shia-Sunni in Islam, Catholic-Protestants in Christianity). It was the other way. Individual faiths trying to merge into one flow later. It is interesting, a very similar Roman culture got vanished so early but Indian culture managed to survive.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    Sringeri was his first Mutt; which he dedivcated to the Goddess of learning, Saraswathi. There is a story about why he selected Sringeri. He was walking on Thungabadra shores when he witnessed a cobra shielding a pregnant frog from the hot sun; he felt this si a good place for mutt if two fierce enemies can live harmoniously, in the place. You can see the statue of the cobra and frog on the ground sof the temple.

    Badrinath was the last mutt, the other two being in Puri and Dwaraka, thus marking the modern day boundaries of India to some extent. In Badrinath, to promote the “integration” of people in BVharath varsha, he instituted that the priests there will always be from two namboodiri families in Payanur, North Malabar. The taridtion continues 1300 years after; the priests caled “Rawals” are always Namboodiris from two Namboodiri Illams of Payyanur. He also instituted that the ehad priest of Kollur will be a Namboodirri from Kerala, or whatever it was before.

    The first Sankaracharya of Dwaraka was Mandan Mishra whom he had defeated in debate earlier.

    He died at the age of 32 – after crisscrossing Bharath twice, writing sizteen books including Vivekanada Choodamani, Soundarya Lahari, and solidly implementing the adavaita philosophy through the four mutts. It is interesting that many great souls died at that age – Jesus Christ, Vivekananda, Ramanujam to name a few. I wonder whether there is any significance to 32-33, something like a half-life of a normal life or whatever. But many great people died in their early 30s.

    Have you heard about Madhava School of Mathematics? It is an ancient mathematical “gurukula” , and many modern mathematical theories are attributed to them. (it seems the latter day westerners, italians, took it to the West). Madhava was a Namboodiri close to Kalady, Adi Sankara’s birth place. So also the famous mathematicians Somayaji, Neelakanta Sharma, Shankara Narayana etc. Since Shankara’s philosophy and logic is close to Mathematical thinking, I wonder whether these mathematicians were related to Shankara as His great great nephews. I hope somebody will reserach into this.

    Three yearss ago I had an opportunity to travel extensively in the US. I was impressed with how they maintainmuseums/memorials for ittle things/little people like Joe Blow who killed a bison to save a pregnant settler. Jefferson’s Monticello etc are considered almost “divine”. And here we do not care who Adi Sankara is, who Madhava is, who Somayaji is. ……May be US has to construct a history and heroes, and our problem may be one of abundance due to six thousand years of accumulation. But even then—..

    shan Reply:

    @rajeev, it is far worse than I thought. The man in ARAB HEADGEAR says clear and loud PROPHET MARRIED AISHA AT SIX , AND HAD SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE WAS NINE(yes you have read it correct)

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Vinay

    Interesting question

    No doubt Patrick French has the answer.

    Standby for Shan presenting it.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    hegde
    ,
    tell me why there is no temple dedicated to lord rama anywhere in the world.and why parivar was so keen for its construction.this is the test of yr knowlegde.
    ther are 76 ramayana.why the call ramlallah.
    god dont need ruffians and murderers to built his temple.bhagwan to dill mein rahta.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @vinay i am not a scholar , but a surgeon through and through stranded in an antique land or island.
    By common consent the word hindu is a corrupt form of the word sindhu.
    The people of India had all sorts of gods and beleif system. I had read a book called BANGALIR ITIHAAS (pre islam) by a very very reputed historian Nihar ranjan Roy.
    What I understood was, that the far superior and dominant culture /beleif system emanated from the gangetic valley (Aryans, if you like). They diffused their thought , beleif system gods , books (oral), mythology all over india. The local gods were absorbed , like congress , every state his itsown congressi culture, but it all starts from delhi , in case of BJP from Nagpur.
    But all over india they definitely knew they were of the fold SANATAN DHARMA.Because the stories does encompass the entire india. Take SATI and her DISMEMBERED BODY scattered all over India. Where ever it fell is a punya sthan, like KAMAKHYA IN ASSAM. Apparently there are 52 such places.
    NOW IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIAN NATIONALISM or India as a nation , this happened after reading Edmund Burke etal or probably slightly predates that and GERMINATED IN THE SOIL OF CALCUTTA. Read Bramho samaj and the making of modern India. Raja Ram Mohan Roy is the Amitabh Bacchan of Indian nationalism

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    March 14th, 2011 at 1:03 am

    Ram, the Muslim boy!

    You say you are a lover of humanity; but every paragraph of you is venomous towards Indians (except muslims), jews, christians, West, East u name it.. Shed the hatred.. All are Gods children..

    hegde jee i am not boy i am very old man.when young i was person of very very bad character.may be u are also my son.who knows.

    i hate the haters

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    It may educate people who are confused about Ravi’s and Ram Autar’s Islam-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL0gFIXnhiE&feature=related

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This is what Ravi teaches his daughter..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg3m3t87-dk&feature=related

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Rajeev, Spine chilling. The characters are well known to me so are their ideologies, BUT THE DECEPTION BIT PORTRAYED in the video woke me up. This is the canard ISLAM RELIGION OF PEACE, a recent survey in Uk amongst young muslims showed 70% think homosexuality is a sin punishable by death. We wouldn’t have computers but for the genius of homosexual ALAN TAURING.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Peter King had his first hearing on radicalization of Muslims.

    two parents talked about the training/recruitment happening in mosques.

    A Pakistani woman talked about her crusade to remove violent passage (such as killing kauffers, spilling jewish blood (and why it is good etc)) from the Saudi supplied Qurans, and how she and her parents were ostracized from the community.

    Any religion which says Music is sin should be burned in the melting nuclear plant in Japan!,

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, any religion that thinks it is beyond reproach should housed on the mounatains of hawai.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Not in Hawai…it is anice vacation place!

    I have a new theory… All Mohameds were bad dudes.. Mohamed Ghauri, mohamad Gaznavi, Mohamed Jinnah, and of course the 9/11 Mohamed Atta..to cap all of them , of course the original Mohamed who institurted the crazy philosophy of darkness of heart and soul that goes unchallenged by the meek followers even after 1300 years, in a spiral race to non-existence.

    Listening to music is sin!

    by the way, ahve yous een any islamic cable channel? I am not lying — they show the black stone of Mecca 24 hrs and the people walking around it — 24 hrs….. .

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    What I find in Shan is that he is brutally honest, both towards other communities AND for his own. The blog needs all sorts of ppl to make it interesting like we need chillies to spice up our food!

  • syed

    @Ashish,
    You are right, we all should be looking ahead but somehow this blog has that effect. From an easygoing person i realise i am morphing into something i do not like. Incidents that happened hundreds of years ago are bought up here & muslims judged as if it happened yesterday. I think this is called “telescoping history”

    @Vinay
    Did I ever say that shias throughout the world are epitomes of all good things? But maybe, just maybe, their evolution in India has ben slightly different from that in Iran.
    The history of mankind has been pretty brutal with no innocents. This was bought to me face to face in the torture section of madame Tussuad, its a must see.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed,

    You are absolutely right that Muslim children of today should not be blamed for what Gaznavi did to Somnath Temple in 1025 and multiple times after that. They cannot do anything about that.

    The “telescoping”, as I see comes from many factors 1) Education 2) Economy and middle class 3) Perceptions 4) Politics

    The widespread education has made many rural and urban Indians aware of tidbits of their history. They are all taught that Somnath was raided seven times. This, coupled with an expanding economy and the resultant middle class results in “never again”.

    Muslims, especially in the North contribute to perceptions getting etched – separate villages, poor education, “give more” etc . Politicians (especially Congress) and their own leaders manipulate them to remain in these conditions, that way they always have a cause.

    Although Muslims in South India are significantly better off than Muslims of North India, with statistical equality on many of the metrics; my suggestion is that Muslims carefully analyze and follow the Kerala Christian model of growth, achievements and inclusion. They never asked for rservations, they set education as numero ono, went all out on accomplishments, and never wanted to be any different from their co-inhabitors (other than going to church on Sundays).

    Nobody will have any negatives on Muslims if there are enough Rizwans and Syeds and Mirzas. Success gets respect; attitudes change when they create jobs, excel in their responsibilities, lead in development …..

    Muslims have to work “around” their religion too. Islam is the 800 pound gorilla standing in the way of progress sometimes. The spreading of Wahabism and the money from KSA are dragging many Mislims and muslim communities backward, making them insensitive to nation/state. Pakistan is an extreme example of this (although they will say it is US, India, and Israel mischief).

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Syed , i read your posting with interest. To quote oscar wilde “Experience is the name we give to our past mistakes”. So past is indeed very important to know. Also you cannot get away from the fact that their a massive DENIAL is majority of muslim population, as to the fact that Islam religion is THE cause of all the misery that bedevils the muslim population. Rather than confronting this fact and challenging the orthodoxy , they silent majority becomes a willing partner by default to the rabid minority. And I can’t see any other alternate pathway other than religious reform.
    And it is nothing unique to Islam , EVERY other religion has done this including BUDDHISM.
    When japan came in contact with WEST during the SHOGUN era , they realised they were 500yrs behind. First thing the KING did is call his religious leaders , and tell them THAT JAPANESE SHOULD EAT BEEF to catch up with the physique of the westerners.
    The hindu society , if it remained as Gandhi wished , hindus would have remained like RURAL UP AND BIHAR.But people do not realise how much SPRING CLEAN hindu religion has undergone. Just reflect on all the CIVIL LAWS that apply to hindus , expunging all the HINDU laws that preceded them. BUT MUSLIMS WILL NOT ALLOW CIVIL LAW, FOR THAT BOOK HAS ALL ANSWERS.
    Next is the schism of Shia and Sunni.I met an Iranian doctor , who family has been exiled to spain and he graduated from spanish medical school.he was working with me in outskirts of London.
    He told me that in some part of Iran , they make shoes with the name AISHA inscribed on the sole.
    This probably has to do with the successsion of Imam Hussain that was denied and the role played by Aisha.
    So by talking about all this i think one is doing a service to your fellow mankind.
    Post Script. I was deluded in my beleif that the UK campuses are taken over by long beard and hijab.To my shock I have learnt THERE ARE HINDU RELIGIOUS IDENTITY BASED GROUPS.
    whether they are an reaction or an action is a matter of research.One medical student I met
    was wearing rosary around his neck (kanthee) and had pony tail(Tiki).
    And also my beleif is racialprejudice apart WHITE population is 1000% MORE HUMANE , perhaps as consequence of expunging religion alltogether from their daily life.
    He was an anaethetist

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    The above comments by sandhu ,is so stupid ,i wonder if it merits a response. i am a bit busy now.Will come back later. however a joke for the moment.
    A guy was telling a very scary ghost story to a group of people from all parts of India. After the narration ,
    every indian died of shock from the frightful descriptions bar one , he was a SIKH.
    he went home , died a week later.Figure it out.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I like the above joke, in fact I like it so much that I believe it merits some extension.

    Here is the extended version:

    A guy was telling a very very scary ghost story to a group of people from all parts of India.

    After he had finished telling the story every Indian who understood it died of shock bar TWO people, and they were a SIKH and a Bengali.

    They both went home. The Sikh died a week later, but the Bengali kept on living.

    He is now working as a receptionist for a mortuary in Kent.

    Figue it out.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    bengali was the only one , rationalist enough to understand that it was just a story and ghost doesn’t exist.

    Ravi Reply:

    However he did not quite understood that the yolk was on him.

    Like you didnt.

    shan Reply:

    He was a fish eater thus far ahead in wit , thus turned the yolk into a chicken which went back and bit ravi’s dangly bits

  • mohan

    guys,just to cool down the tempers
    In the promise of seventy two virgins to every muslim martyr ,virgin is a mistranslation of ‘white raisins of crystal clarity’.Now if only that had been widely known how many innocent victims of suicide missions might have been saved…
    This is one of the several constructive mistranslation that bedevil the religious scriptures
    There is another famous one also concerns virgin-Isaiah’s Hebrew for young woman(almah) into the Greek for virgin(parthenos).This one translator’s slip was to be wildly inflated and give rise to the whole preposterous legend of Jesu’s mother being a virgin!
    Man can twist the scriptures and thus twist the course of history..

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Mohan,simply brilliant. this is what all the non muslim academics been saying.Quoran is not one single piece of document , but layered upon over centuries according to the prevailing condition. Take hadith bt Bukhari written 800 yrs after prophet’s death , that too from hearsay.yet that becomes a “no touch ” book.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    sorry, this statemnt is INFANTILE – “”"”WHITE population is 1000% MORE HUMANE , perhaps as consequence of expunging religion alltogether from their daily life “”"”
    I generally find that the whites are very selfish in their approach to their spouses and their children. Some of my white business associates actually charge their children rent when they are 18 or 21, and actually encourage thier children to leave home to save expenditure. I have seen couples selfishly go on an expensive vacation and leave their 15 and 16 year old kids with grandparents.

    Similarly, at the time of divorce, both white men and women always behave abominably with children the biggest sufferers. Yes, on the plus side, white folks have an enhanced civic sense and have worked very hard to abolish racism.
    Nothing personal, but Shan looks like one of those superficial personalities who makes rancid generalisations about communities. Also I have seen folks from Calcutta come here with deep inferiority complexes- after the grime of Cal when they see clean Britain, they keel over and indulge in some of the most pathetic ‘white sahib’ feet boot polishing.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Balwinder-
    Shan was talking about religious rigidities, and that Britishers have separated religion and their personal lives well.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    we attack because of religion.why u hiondus put the bombs or american attack every part of world.why u forget 400 years of slave trade.voilent perpetuated on russians by capitalist of new amsterdem (new yok)by killing them through philosophy of communism.

    first world war and second world war.war on armenian.etc etc

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Why don’t you say something sensible and understandable for a change?

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    ANOTHER mild misconception- eating beef will make you catch up with whites. B U L L S H I T
    Susheel Kumar, world champion wrestler is a vegetarian, as is Sehwag and even some American Olympic athletes.
    I am a sikh, and in UK as opposed to India, about 5% of Sikhs are vegetarian. My vegetarian side of the family is perhaps taller than the carnivore side of my relatives ( I call them barbarians hehe). And definitely, my barbarian cousins have much more corenery heart probs and sugar.
    In my company there are many bangladeshis who eat beef and fish all the time- they are the scrawniest as opposed to the Indians and Pakistanis I employ. So I guess size is in the genes and race.
    This ‘white worshipping’ is depressing Shan

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    Violence in the scriptures.
    “Slay the idolaters where ever ye find them,arrest them,besiege them,and lie in ambush every where for them ” Allah instructs the prophet Muhammed (Quran,9:5). He continues “Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites..Hell shall be their home and evil fate”
    Now let us compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.
    Book 1 Samuel-When God instructs king Saul to attack the Amalekites-” And utterly destroy all that they have and do not spare them”God says through the prophet Samuel “But kill both man and women,infant and nursing child,ox and sheep,camel and donkey”When King Saul failed to do that God took away his kingdom.
    In all the religions as they grow and mature and expand they go through a process of forgetting the original violence.Even the Bible is violent,Christianity to day is not for the most part.But the scripture is there dormant but not dead.
    The difference between the two scriptures are Bible is describing the destruction of an enemy at a point in time,but Quran unfortunately urges an ongoing struggle to defeat unbelievers.
    For me religion is a myth and superstition that hardens and enslaves minds.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    ‘Mohan , Simply Brilliant , odd thing to say , this is nehru’s gift to the hindus, they have become truly secular , at least some .

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mohan jee bible has only 5-6 pages of jesus speaches.remaining are the commentaries of his companion.jesus did not give shariat of his own.their dhriat is ten commandments from old testament.

    prophet mohammed gave shariat,which consists of 12 commandments.contnious war on evil
    is asked for ,not on unbelievers.unbelievers are protected minority in muslim state.nobody can hurt them ,take their civil rights or kill them.as they are protected by order of allah.

    tension exists on sanghi papers.even pakistan is passing through one of the biggest crises of his life.but sikhs hindus and christians are generally protected.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Syed
    “Incidents that happened hundreds of years ago are bought up here & Muslims are judged as if it happened yesterday”.

    Again Muslim community is not alone here. Even Brahmins are judged on Manu Smriti repeatedly. Incidents that happened not just hundreds of years ago are brought up here, even thousands of years ago are also discussed.

    I repeat, every community is a minority when it is taken out from the rest. Every community has its own problems. (For a poor in slum, none of these might be problems). An average Muslim in city would find house hunting hard. He feels, it is because his name is Khan. In South India, a Brahmin boy in town who scores over 95% in 12th still undergoes sleepless nights (reservation percentage is very high, which mainly goes to the creamy layer). That boy feels, it is because his name is Sharma. (Would like to know, why Ashish was awake at 3:00 AM the other day. Wishing good luck to your daughter). Each one suffers; not because of their fault, but because of the acts of someone who belonged to their community.

    What I wanted to say was, we can’t generalise any community to be violence-proof. In the process, I think I generalised Islam (Islam cannot get acceptance of majority). If that hurt you, I apologise for that sentence.

    @Gopi,
    Education and prosperity brought awareness. But perception and politics brought tensions. The minority appeasing policies (whether it benefited the community or not), then BJP’s attempt to rise Hindutva (what it is, I am still trying to figure out) are the main things which have widened the rift. If AMITB had acted the same way as Shia group, it would have diffused the tension. But some groups want to sit in a comfy place with their attitude, while the rest of the India is boiling.

    @Shan
    Main thing is decoupling Islam from politics. India was ruled by Britishers equally as Mughals. But we did not say “Christians ruled us”. US invaded Iraq. It was not “Christian Invasion”. But retaliation to that became “Islamic Terrorism”. Decoupling religion from politics safeguards that religion. (US was blamed for the invasion, but Christianity remained safe). My objection to Zia’s heading for the previous blog was for the same. (Don’t give an impression, Islam is born to rule. It makes the religion vulnerable).

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay,anyone with “insider” knowledge will tell you islam and politics are indivisible. just ask messrs Gilani &co and all the theocracies littered in islamic world.As to why mughal rule was not accepted by the hindus, my personal opinion is they did not bring anything new , whereas the brits brought the renaissance knowlege with them. They opened universities , hospitals , objectively started studying medicine with dissection of bodies , the administration borrowed from roman model was far sophisticated, Also they may be because of self interest taught us to bee proud of our culture, thus wilson jones founded THE ASIATIC SOCIETY, they created National Library , FIRST PRINTED VERSION OF RAMAYANA WAS PUBLISHED FROM UNIV OF CALCUTTA PRESS.
    Mughal rule produced a lot of grand islamic buildings , some paintings , but that’s about it.Do you know of any university from Akbar’s period (there were plenty of univ in islamic world at the time)
    for that matter in any schools or hospitals

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    as to Vinay’s question about British – why Indians do not say Christians ruled us.

    I think it has everything to do with what type of a rule, how the citizens are treated, and whether they respected the way of native life. British left the locals to their own practices whatever may be the “geopolitical” intent of the British, They did not convert people, they did not raze temples, they did not take their women away, they did not plunder and kill. I think people go a second level deep (from country to core values) when they are subject to personal humiliation. Unfortunately many Muslim rulers crossed their limits, and hence why people perceive as “Muslim rule”. Were British as crude and cruel as some of the Muslim linvaders/kings, they would have been labelled Christian invasion.

    As for Iraq and Afghanistan, Al Queda and many “normal” Muslims view it as a Christian invasion.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    .

    I think it has everything to do with what type of a rule, how the citizens are treated,

    first fifty years of their rule they starved to death half the population of bengal bihar and assam.when food was avialable in silo.under moghul rule i produce the part of lecture of lord macaulay in british parliament,

    LORD MACAULAY’S ADDRESS TO BRITISH PARLIAMENT 2nd FEBRUARY 1835

    “I have travelled across length and Breadth of India and I have not seen aperson who is a beggar who is a thief. such a wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient educational system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and english is good and greater than their own way,they will lose their selfesteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them , a truly domintaed nation.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raju u all are slave blood and enjoy slavery.

    shan Reply:

    British did kill and plundered hell of a lot. The retribution after sepoy mutiny was without precedent in history , as per the brits themselves. Wellcome to TOWER OF LONDON , crown jewels on displayed,of them one diamond “queen of Africa” price some hundreed odd million , next KOHINOOR , price—IT ACTUALLY IS WRITTEN PRICELESS
    Also they converted as well , but by INDUCEMENTS NOT VIOLENCE.
    The fact is they were SO POWERFUL by the contemporary standard , that nobody dared to cross them and were have to be a supplicant. MIR JAFAR SIDED WITH BRITS , SO DID JAGAT SETH. As you are from south , you should remember SEIGE OF ARCOT and how Robert Clive only 21yrs , broke the seige.
    Brits were hundred years ahead in military technology.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    KOHINOOR , price—IT ACTUALLY IS WRITTEN PRICELESS

    shan those days it was valued as 7 day gdp of the world.

    Vinay Reply:

    What Raju states is right (They respected the way of native life. British left the locals to their own practises). What Shan says is also right (retribution after sepoy mutiny was without precedent in history). It was possible because Church was separate from British rule.

    On one side Reginald Dyer was murdering the people in Jalianwala Bag. On the other side, hospitals run by missionaries were treating the untouchable people, schools run by them (even in vernacular languages) gave education to the class which were deprived of education for ages. People fought against British, but respected missionary work.

    But when it comes to Islam, it gets mixed up with day to day activities. People can pray Allah. But in the demands of Sharia for divorce, Islamic Banking for home loan and Jihad call for protest against America; that major factor (their God) gets sidelined.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    religion and state should go together.model like iran is good.hypocracy like india or america is rubbish.
    in india it was united front of of brhmns and rajput.otherwise from from turkey to uzbekistan to baghdad muslims had best of universities.now all muslim countries are progressing in education.
    england is not secular as queen is protector church but not temples.in america every president has to show that he is a good christian.
    in india things are worst.every goverment department is full bhagwans picture.in goverment fuctions bhagwans can be seen evrywhere.
    which secularism u are talking.palin and bush told clearly that we have come here to fulfill
    biblical philosphy.
    u always talk foolishness any how bengalees are known idiots.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    so what religion should go with the indian state if they are to go together

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    and u r perfectly ok that pakistan is doing so well now that the religion and state are cohesive

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    and u r perfectly ok that pakistan is doing so well now that the religion and state are cohesive

    i ahve never pakistani president with mullahs or even in mosques.actually they are at war with mullah everywhere.
    but goverment should work under guardianship of local religious authority.better than godless criminals.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    so what religion should go with the indian state if they are to go together.

    india is inbetter position thanothers.we can borrow best of all.laws should be divine as much as possible.practical.
    council of elders should watch the working of ministeries.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Brits were hundred years ahead in military technology

    i dont agree ,succes was because of ghaddari of indian.my own family is one of them.they still prince the only regognize prince of india.prince of arcot.they sided with britishers on war with tipu.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay-

    The issue of “the Brahim boy with 95%” is a real issue; one our policy makers do not care about because there is no voting block. It is a terrible national wastage.

    You are absolutely correct about the “creamy layer” privileges. These groups have been benefited enormously since independence; it is time to stop their privilege. Let these reservations be based on economic situation plus some consideration for any historical neglect, be it Dalit or Muslim or whatever – something like 20% for economically backward, another 10% for Dalitt/Muslims etc. there is only 20% in open merit in Kerala; in Tamil Nadu it is even worse, with only 10%. It simply has got out of control..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    education should be made FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN..expand the cake dont grab it.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Vinay,
    My insomnia is now a thing of the past; Dr Shan’s prescriptions worked well.
    And, no, my daughter had nothing to do with the insomnia. :D

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Now lets take this dimwit sandhu.
    1.I don’t know what your profession is , certainly not medicine.Growth depends on GROWTH HORMONE secreted from the pitutary gland hanging below the hypothalamus in brain.
    Growth hormone release and production depends on PROTEIN INTAKE. Animal protein is a far superior protein source contains all the amino acids. SO DONT TALK LIKE AN IDIOT. Japanese have indeed become TALLER over a period of hundreed years.
    2. White (meaning AngloSaxons) are indeed 1000% more humane compared to your folks.
    Lets spill the beans.Remember the former chief of Council For racial Equality, a SARDAR , was watching the famous cricket match at Lords which KAIF , snatched victory from the noses of England team. This SARDAR occupying such a high position(Exclusively by virtue of political patronage, I am not sure if he went to Univ) WAS DRUNK ABUSED AND PUNCHED A POLICEMAN AND THIS WAS SPLASHED ALL OVER THE NEWSPAPERS. This is UK not Ambala , so he was swifty kicked out of his post.
    2. Talking about parents. The one community where DOMESTIC VIOLENCE is epidemic is SIKHs
    If you post your address i will send you a copy of the film PROVOKED based on reallife events.
    3.does the name SOUTHALL SISTERS MEAN ANYTHING. This was formed not to sing Kirtan in Gurdwara or cooking for the Langar, THEY WERE FORMED AS A REFUGE FOR SIKH WOMEN ESCAPING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.
    3.I remember a elderly lady about to breathe her last in the wards. There was so much shouting and noise , the nurse asked the family to leave .the shouting and screaming was about the MONEY THAT THE MOTHER HAD LEFT BEHINDand they family were fighting over it like vultures.needless to say the family was a sikh family’.
    5. White Humanism. This does not apply blanket to every anglosaxons , there are evil , BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING
    some examples.A taxi driver’s wife who used to be a hair dresser , no longer works but is a house wife. She devoted two days a week providing free hair dressing to elderly women in old peoples home.
    A survey in 2003 showed 86%OF YOUNG PEOPLE HAD TAKEN PART IN SOME FORM OF COMMUNITY EVENT OVER THE PAST YEAR AND 56% HAD TAKEN PART IN FUND RAISING OR COLLECTING MONEY FOR CHARITY.
    6. As for the gentleman from Calcutta getting bedazzled in london AT LEAST HE ENTERED THE COUNTRY LEGALLY UNLIKE YOUR FOLKS 40% HAVE ENTERED ILLEGALY LIKE ENROLLMENT IN FAKE COLLEGES , WITH STUDENT VISA , COMING TO ATTEND MARRIAGE AND THEN VANISHING INTO THE BLACK ECONOMY OR SIMPLY GETTING THROUGH DOVER IN A LORRY UNDER A HEAP OF VEGETABLES.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    White (meaning AngloSaxons) are indeed 1000% more humane compared to your folks

    from vietnam to latin america to wars in europe and 400 years of slave trade,atrocities and land grabbing in middle east , killing of 5 crores russians,preparing and selling wmds to world starving indians to death are the glowing example of their humane nature.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    And what is your record?

    Killing Ahmadiyyas, Shias, hindus, christians, Sufis????

    Razing Somnath, Benares, and numerous other places of worship?

    Bombing Bammyan Budha and other priceless historical pieces?

    Converting, looting, and raping wherever you guuys went?

    Killing thousands of Armenians?

    Being a willing partner in the slave trade?

    killing millions of Sudanese/?

    Shutting down schools and chopping off girls’ noses? (and professor’s hand in southern state)

    Bombing all over the world killing innocent men women and children?
    (just yesterday 300 plus Muslims were killed in suicide bombings)

    Ram, get a life–it is one thing to be proud of ones religion, background etc..It is another thing to swalllow without qquestioning.. As I have been saying, you take care of your group’s problems rather than repeated blaming of others..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Killing Ahmadiyyas, Shias, hindus, christians, Sufis

    wRazing Somnath, Benares, and numerous other places of worshiphere
    somnath was looted not destroyed.benaras temples was razed by rajputs as pujaris drugge their women and then looted.then on insistence of aurangzeb half of its portion was reinstated and was converted to mosque.it is called gyanvaapi masjid.

    Bombing Bammyan Budha and other priceless historical pieces

    they are reinstated to its original forms when u will reinstate babri masjid.

    Converting, looting, and raping wherever you guuys went

    this is rubbish my are occupied by muslims in 1192 still 90%of population is hindu.

    Killing thousands of Armenians?

    this was zoinist act.as armenian were the first christian so hurt them(jews) a lot.turkish empire was very weak and falling.they took the advantage of situation now speak lies like indian zoinists.

    killing millions of Sudanese/

    darfur is inhibited by staunch muslims.it is filled with highly enriched uranium and oil the whole things was magnified out of propotion by zoinist media.now things are calm

    .Shutting down schools and chopping off girls’ noses? (and professor’s hand in southern state
    muslims cut his hand but christian school cut his ***.

    Bombing all over the world killing innocent men women and children

    read thoroughly raymond devis of pakistan col.purohit of india.

    yesterday 300 plus Muslims were killed in suicide bombings

    it was 30 not 300 till american dont vacate area things will remain same.

    you take care of your group’s problems rather than repeated blaming of others..

    dont worry about others worry about urslf 49%of ur women are enimic ,have the poverty level more than sub-sahara region.

    where.

    .

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Moron Ram , you are talking about the state ,i am talking about ordinary people.Chinese state is violent , chinese as an individual is unbeleivably peace loving. MUSLIMS AS A GROUP ARE ALL JIHADI AS AN INDIVIDUAL , NICEST PEOPLE ON EARTH. Kuch Bheja mey gaya.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    zoinists media call freedom fighters as jihadis.raymond davis divulge the truth of suicide bombing.if my father or mother are insulted and beaten in my front i will become jihadi.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    So which Ahamadiyya killed whose father or mother? Who killed Zhazad’s (manhattan bomber) father or mother? Did teh pakistani minister who got killed kill any father or mother? Did TAseer kill anybody’s father or mother?

    Did the five hundrted Mumbaites killed in 11/26 kill anybodys father or mother.

    People like you are cancer to the society.

    You deserve backwardness if your 1.5 billion are afraid of those 15 million peopel. Why donyt you en mass walk over to israel and finish them off.. Why are you exploding bombs everywhere

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    So which Ahamadiyya killed whose father or mother? Who killed Zhazad’s (manhattan bomber) father or mother? Did teh pakistani minister who got killed kill any father or mother? Did TAseer kill anybody’s father or mother?

    ghandhi was not killed by muslims.taseer was most probably killed due to local politics.he was giving all type of trouble to pml-n ruling group in lahore.it was given religious colour.things like this happenens everywhere.kennedy killer was also not muslim.\

    Did the five hundrted Mumbaites killed in 11/26 kill anybodys father or mother.

    yes karkare was about to open the truth of bomb blasts in india.
    why faces of terrorists were mutiliated.who killed them why both their were shot at.
    why there is no enquiry commission on this.like sept 11.

    26/11 was joint game of cia,isi raw,brhmnst and their brothers in IB.3 terrorists cannot kill and and at the same time fight with nsg commodos.there was huge atrocities was going on inside by another group.who were raping the women cutting their bqabies into pieces
    busy in mutiliating their faces.escape was provided to them.but these three were ditched.

    jewish couple was killed by nsg bullets as per postmortem report.who and why he was killed has many secrets.
    why goverment is hesitating to send cctv camera cd for international studio for checking.kasab advocate asked for this.almost every burqa clad women was killed at cst.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    You deserve backwardness if your 1.5 billion are afraid of those 15 million peopel. Why donyt you en mass walk over to israel and finish them off.. Why are you exploding bombs everywhere

    we are believer of god.see japan.bhagwan ke ghar deir hai andher nahin hai.80%of them hate isreal.they dont agree what isreal is doing.they are foolish.if they have slighest of mind ,they should make some settlement.now russian jews are challenging the european zoinist.they segregration problem.young jew wants easy life so returning to country of their origin.
    arab jews and palestanians are both semetic.so brother.and victimof zoinism.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    MUSLIMS AS A GROUP ARE ALL JIHADI

    mr shan this is wrong.need more study.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I urge Vinay, Syed, Raju, Gopi, Paaji, Shan etc. to watch youtube links that I have posted.
    Please do post your opinion of these clips. As far as I am concerned, I am stunned at the level of tolerance for these scums in UK.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    , then how on earth can mullas impose gender segregation elsewhere?

    gender segregration was started by taimur.but still women in muslim are very powerful.seal of state used to be with noorjahan.in moghul palaces wmen were involved in taking final decision on important issues.in high caste muslim society women was not beaten which quite rampant among hindus.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    I urge Vinay, Syed, Raju, Gopi, Paaji, Shan etc. to watch youtube links that I have posted
    rajeev kya chalti ghadi mein rape ka hai ya 85 saal kee budhiya ke sath balatkar ka.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Wo Budhiya teri ammi bhi ho sakti hai….

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    budiya sabhi ki amma lekin delhi mein aisa hota hai,isliye too,

    ham hain fidaye lucknow
    aur lucknow hum par fida.

    Vinay Reply:

    Rajeev,
    Have watched the video. More than that, I wanted to read the comments which supports that video. There are too many comments. But I want to read the mindset and argument which supports it.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar,
    I thought your ammi came from Hira mandi lahore.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    I urge Vinay, Syed, Raju, Gopi, Paaji, Shan etc

    mujhe shaadi mein kyon nahee bulaya.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Woh mehmanonko bulaaya tha. Dulhe ko bulaneki zaroorat nahi samjha.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar,
    Do invite me in your maiyyat?

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Do invite me in your maiyyat?

    zaroor bulainge lekin ana pee ke.

    shan Reply:

    @rajeev, I have seen and posted my comments.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I want to know if Islamic radicals have become this bold in real or is it UK media propaganda.
    If muslims utter such nonsense on TV in US, their a$$es will be ripped open.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajiv, well UK is a small country. 60 million population .Muslims make 2.7% 0f the population , and 7% of PRISON population excluding terrorism offences.
    They exclusively vote labour party and that is the party that was in power 1998-2010.
    So there you have it. Also these ENGLISH are the shrewdest people on planet earth.
    They let them do these things ,SO THE WHITE POPULATION’S ANTI IMMIGRANT PREJUDICE GETS SUCCOUR FROM THE RIGHT WING MEDIA.This also validates what they have been saying , their is a enemy within. ALSO THEY WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE TO LOOK OTHERWAY BECAUSE OF OIL.

    Maggie Thatcher sold 20 BILLION POUNDS (yes billion , yes pound not dollar) worth of arms to Saudi , which the saudi do not know how to maintain. So British Aorospace has another contract to maintain them.
    Take the release of Lockerbie Bomber Al-Magrahi.The health reason was a cover , THE REAL REASON WAS OIL EXPLORATION RIGHTS GRANTED TO BP.
    I hope now you understand why it is tolerated.

    Rizwan Reply:

    DR SHAN- these are your comments above- ‘…so i went to see the family , they were seeking my opinion , i told them , my skin colour is brown and whites wont like to be lectured by a brorn guy. I knew they were ******** things up , i got in touch with a japanese prof via email , managed to forward his opinion to a tamil doctor working under the white guy,but they didn’t act and that was that.This family was Hindu……
    This incoherent gibberish is written BY A DOCTOR????!!!!!!
    And when doc mishra writes some comments, you screech like a low caste SC OBC thus- ‘…COW BELT intellect of Pandit Mishra , and the proud inheritor oy Young bengal and two nobel laureattes producing state.’

    If one is to believe you that u r really a doc, is this how you would talk to a senior OF YOUR PROFESSION??!! Do u have any breeding or class ?
    I never thought u were a doc, but yesterday my abba jaan who reads this blog daily said that Sandhu paaji is right, you ARE A DOC, but 100% on SC ST reservation. It has gone to yr head, and the trip to UK has made your head burst. You make cheap boasts.
    yr sick comment- 99% OF MUSLIMS IN INDIA ARE LOW CASTE CONVERTS IS FALSE, go read your history you chamar doctor

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    TRUTH HURTS

  • syed

    @Shan,
    “Take hadith bt Bukhari written 800 yrs after prophet’s death , that too from hearsay.yet that becomes a “no touch ” book.”

    100% true, some muslims nowadays have sadly, become more loyal than their prophet. For eg. gender segregation is never there in Islam. HAj is performed the same way it has been done since the time of the prophet and there is no gender segregation during the whole process! Males and females, with and WITHOUT hijab perform haj together.
    Now this begs the question – when there is no segregation or requirement to veil the face in the holiest of Islam’s places while performing one of the holiest of Islam’s rituals, then how on earth can mullas impose gender segregation elsewhere?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed-

    KSA sent its army to Bahrain to suppress the protests there.

    Iran has stated it is an act of invasion.

    I will be worried, scary, if I were the King of Saudi Arabia..

    Looks like Iran is coming on the top of this current wave.

    Obviously Americans would not allow Saudi Arabia to be under any natural uprisers, if they are Al queda type…

    What is your reading on KSA in the near term (all indications are that it will collapse, it is a question of when), how Iran can leverage the situation and then transform into a democracy etc

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    KSA will not be allowed to collapse UNCLE SAM HAS TOO MUCH AT STAKE. ARAMCO STANDS FOR ARAB AMERICAN CO

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Gopi,
    BAhrain hosts the seventh fleet of the US. KSA is 100% under US influence. If the impossibility that bahrain becomes a democracy becomes true, then you can bet anything that one of its first moves would be to send the fleet packing so no way the US would support democracy there.

    Really cannot imagine how the KSA monarchy can be toppled. The 2 pillars on which KSA stands is the monarchy and the wahabies, both mutually supporting each other and sharing the spoils. Most imp. wahabies are willing to kill or be killed … how do you fight that?

    I dont think anything can happen until oil starts diminishing and a welfare state becomes difficult, thats when the fun would start.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    syed,

    saudi arabia cannot fell as it is protected by americans.saudi has huge deposit 76 industrial minerals apart from the oil.and one of the biggest mines for gold.
    pressure on ossama bin ladin is because of saudis.before ossama and saudia were one .he had no pressure.
    if saudi fell means means america is half dead as they are making trillions of dollars from their oil and minefields.BUT SILENLY.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Ram ya haram or Harami, FOR ONCE I FULLY AGREE WITH YOUR ABOVE ASSESMENT

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    i told u before also,
    ram ka naam badnam na karo

    Rizwan Reply:

    dr shan, u r a doctor ???!!! u write thus? puke inducing

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rizwan,
    There is only one way to find out if Shan is a doctor, send Ram Autar to Shan for brain surgery.

  • Binoy Hegde

    Coming back to Jamia Milla or whatever..

    Students graduating from a college with trhat name will have atough time to get a job..

    A recruiter faced to choose one from Jamia Milla, St Xavier (or whatever St), or Maharaja’s College will not choose a Jamai Milla boy or choose as the third choice.

    So, Jamia, you better change to Akbar college or something like that.

    Non_muslims are not going to clamour for admission there whether they are minority college or normal college..

    Jamai Milla? sound slike a Mill or villa…..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    dont try to grab the cake.increase it` ahve a part of it.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Guys , today I had a first hand proof of what most indians know to be true. That 99% muslims in India are hindu low caste convert.I knew a patient originally from Sylhet / Silchar Assam, just passed away.
    so i went to see the family , they were seeking my opinion , i told them , my skin colour is brown and whites wont like to be lectured by a brorn guy. I knew they were ******** things up , i got in touch with a japanese prof via email , managed to forward his opinion to a tamil doctor working under the white guy,but they didn’t act and that was that.This family was Hindu. But being originally from sylhet in bangladesh , they had few bangladeshi friends. One hijabised lady came to see the widowed wife.
    She said something made me hang my head in shame .now read on.
    She said she was at diffident if she should come at this mourning period , AS SHE WAS A MUSLIM whether the religious stricture will cause defilement.
    She said in their village she had heard from her mother , if a muslim entered the house of a hindu women when she is cooking ALL FOOD USED TO BE THROWN AWAY
    she said they were all low caste hindus who were converted one by one.
    SHE ALSO SAID SHE EVERY NITTY GRITTY ABOUT RAMAYAN AND MAHABHARAT.
    Who is to blame , THE RAW SEWAGE OF HELL CASTE

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    an excellent debate on “how stable is KSA” in the ny times

    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/03/14/how-stable-is-saudi-arabia/preachers-of-hate-as-loyal-subjects

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @mohan , The symbiosis of Al saud and the wahabis is well known and has a historical reason.
    Why do you think only the tribe of Abdul aziz bin SAUD came to rule saudi arabia , in fact they changed the name to KSA . A very very detailed study is found in an incredible book called The arabs ,By Eugene Rogan. just go to amazon.com.
    According to the above author Abdul aziz said to Bin Wahab(from where wahabism came)
    you bring the flock to support me as their only leader , i will see that your brand of Islam is only one that will receive state patronage. Otherwise BIN LADEN’s family could have been the rulers and it would be known as Kingdom of Bin Laden arabia.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    original name of saudi arabia was najd and hijaz.saudi royal family is from jewish tribe named modarkh basra.he reached saudia with an arab friend.where he stayed with wrong arabic name abdul azeez then he killed ost of family members secretly became head of that tribe.
    abul wahab was also from the family of turkish jews.his father sent him to study in najaf.mi16 agents tracked him and took fatwa by cheating him which made them easy to mascare turks.he was married to britsh prostitute attached to mi16.this made british agents enter in his house.he was not knowing that he is being cheated.
    rss also almost same story.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    Sorry, coming in late on some comments.
    @Rajeev, your video clips are indeed scary. This radical Islam or wahabism is seeping right through UK, most of Pak and as this clip shows – through India as well. In this clip a radical mullah is saying kill the kafirs in a madarsa in the heart of New Delhi, barely 1 km from the police HQ !! -
    http://www.youtube.com/user/themostmystfellow#p/u/3/EZJaZyUr3Lc

    @Balwinder, I am a Consultant Physician of 27 years standing in the NHS, your comments on diet are spot on. ALL YOU NEED IS A BALANCED DIET, with the right proportion of nutrients. That beef will make you bigger or that fish will make you brighter is based on flimsy evidence. Certainly the Bangladeshis in the UK and in their home country who seem to eat only fish beef or chicken (cheaper than good quality veg here in UK) are neither muscular nor brainy as there GCSE results show.
    It is also an established fact that most people arond the world, but esp the eastern races are just naturally growing taller with each generation. My second generation here and in India are ALL taller than their parents- in my family’s case on entirely veg diet.
    Veg is spreading fast. In UK, 20-25% GIRLS in the age group of 18-40 are now vegetarian. It is a well established fact that a veg diet is MEDICALLY proven to be healthier and kinder for the environment in a planet of 6 billion ppl, and growing.
    @syedbhai, no segregation in haj, wow, did not know that. Yr contributions here are as ever, educating

    [Reply]

  • shan

    The difference between COW BELT intellect of Pandit Mishra , and the proud inheritor oy Young bengal and two nobel laureattes producing state.
    ORIGINAL RESEARCH COMMUNICATIONS
    Association between protein intake and 1-y weight and height gains in Bangladeshi children aged 3-11 y

    A Torres, J Orav, W Willett and L Chen
    Harvard University School of Public Health, Boston.

    We examined 1-y weight and height gains among 238 rural Bangladeshi children aged 3-11 y old to address the hypothesis that dietary protein composition is associated with growth velocity. Energy-adjusted total protein and energy-adjusted protein from sources other than cereal (animal, pulses, and vegetables) were associated with higher weight gains, after adjustment for age, sex, land ownership, diarrhea, acute respiratory infections, other fevers, nutritional status at the beginning of the study, and average body mass index of the mother [daily intake of energy-adjusted noncereal protein (beta +/- SE): 14.2 +/- 6.4 g.y-1.g-1, P = 0.03; total protein: 13.1 +/- 6.3 g.y-1.g-1, P = 0.04; and protein as percent of energy intake: 39.5 +/- 20.2 g.y-1.% of energy from protein-1, P = 0.05]. These findings are compatible with the hypothesis

    [Reply]

  • Mohan Ramchandani

    I am a regular reader of this blog, but very rarely I comment. The contributions by the
    people like Syed, Balwinder, Dr. Mishra, Binoy, Vinay, Shan and many others have enhanced
    my knowledge and I am very thankful to all of these.

    This is for Shan,

    Sincere request please stop generalisng every religion, caste or community and for god sake – sorry – for the sake of science please please stop calling people of insulting names.
    I have lot of respect for your knowledge you possess.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    riswan puttar, shan is shan. An uncultured oaf. Boasts about buying a second hand BMW- nouveau riche, naya paisa sar par chad ke bolta hai.

    At our Baisakhi parties in London, one is always inviting the senior dignified doctors of the Indian community who add grace to the gathering. But i have noticed that in the llast 7-8 years as the NHS is desperate for doctors, they are letting the riff raff from India in. A lot of SC ST medics have crept in- most are grateful and work hard, but there is DEFINITELY A GROUP OF PATHETIC RODENTS who have come in from Bihar and Bengal who are jealous of the so called upper castes and Sikhs.

    They make you ashamed to be an Indian with their cheap yuppie behaviour. So my advice to you, Mohan, Ravi, ram, mishrajee is very rustic- NEECH KE MOON NA LAGO. yeh shaan sabse gaali khaata hai- ram has called him g aandu, ch utia- others have also abused him when he gets nasty- but this besharam keeps coming bak for more.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    They cannot get in like your folks at the back of a lorry , or fake college , or fake marriage or on the pretext of attending marriage then vanishing into the black economy. THEY HAVE TO PASS AN EXAM CALLED PLAB , the same exam was conducted on the students of LEEDS MEDICAL SCHOOL for a trial. only 2 passed out of 150.(Source Polly Toynbee in The Guardian circa 2004)

    [Reply]

  • syed

    BTW, a clarification – KSA rests on 3 pillars and not 2. The saudi royal family, wahabis and the US. Remove any one pillar and chances are good for a change.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    syed bhai, chillies we could take but ill manners, abusive language we cannot. I was disgusted particularly by how he addressed a senior of his own profession- mishraji- with a tone and manners that deserve a slap across his face.
    I quopte riswan above who pointed out his gem from SHAN- ‘…so i went to see the family , they were seeking my opinion , i told them , my skin colour is brown and whites wont like to be lectured by a brorn guy. I knew they were ******** things up , i got in touch with a japanese prof via email , managed to forward his opinion to a tamil doctor working under the white guy,but they didn’t act and that was that.This family was Hindu……
    This incoherent gibberish is written BY A DOCTOR????!!!!!!
    —————
    I find that you, Gopi, Mishraji, are simply the best contributors. Your writings are pure poetry and I read and am enriched. I also enjoy the contributions of Benoy, Raju Kurein, Vinay, Shoeb, L Mirza.
    ————————–
    SHAN has a very CHEAP WAY OF DEBATING. Dr Mishra and Gopi can sometimes point out very severe shortcomings in your muslim community, but that is done with polite language and concern, both for the community and for the country.
    All of you are gentlemen debators, SHAN IS cheap.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Paaji,
    Come out of this crab mentality. There is no need to pull each other down. You have made some very casteist statement which I frankly don’t expect from true sikh. Bhul chuk maaf.

    Shan,
    Please drop this counter attack..jaane do. By the way I am also a cowbelt product who was raised in pune, worked in Europe and US, lived in cowbelt only for 4 years but I love my cowbelt inspite of all its flaws. We have lot of bengalis living in cowbelt for decades..what do you say about them. Thand rakh..

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I have been debating with muslims from all over world for years (to be precise 16 years) and found that though their method of arguement may be different but almost everyone believes that Islam is supreme and all other faiths are false. This is something that really hurts me. Even the most liberal muslim (like Syed) come out as apologist of Islam. Syed said that Shias never destroyed temple, Ram Autar on other extreme contends that Sunnis never indulged in temple destruction.
    India can be a better place if we have a truth and reconcilliation meet where rather than ducking and hiding unpleasent truth about Islamic past in India, muslims own up deeds of Islamic invaders and disassociate from them. Now some apologist will say we never associate with islamic invaders..Then why did we see violence by muslims when there was an exhibition on black deeds of Aurangzeb..Why was their riots in maharashtra on Afzal khan’s tomb.
    There is tendency of deception in muslims that can be seen in all kinds of muslims right from pretend-liberals to hard-care islamists.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Then why did we see violence by muslims when there was an exhibition on black deeds of Aurangzeb

    TELL ME WHAT HE DID.KAHAN THE GHANSHYAM.KISI SHAKHA MEIN LATHI BHAANJ RAHE THE.

    , Ram Autar on other extreme contends that Sunnis never indulged in temple destruction.
    India can be a better place if we have a truth and reconcilliation meet where rather than ducking

    ALL BUDHHDIST TEMPLES OF AYODHYA(SAKET)WERE FORCIBLY CONVERT INTO SHV TEMPLE BY VEDICS.SAME IS MATHURA.FOLLOWERE OF LORD VISHU ALWAYS DESTROYED
    SHIV TEMPLES AND KILLED SHAIVITE.VICA VERSA.
    UR LAST LINE IS GOOD BUT PARIVAR HAS TO CLOSE THEIR ZHOOT MANUFACTURING FACTORIES.come in sense and talk truth.

    regarding bengladehis ,cheap labour is always welcomed hence they will remain.one my jain
    friend whom house house i mostly stay whenever in delhi was cursing bangladeshis.kept quite when i pointed that u have employed 2 bangladeshis cook(ladies).then he even ig police many.

    what to do.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    This is something that really hurts me

    why this hurts u nobody is asking to believe what i believe.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I don’t think lunatics should be taken seriously especially the one with terror filled brain.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    For past 1 week, I have tried to understand islamism in UK and it is indeed scary. The thought process of Anjem Choudhary is extremely dangerous but what scare me is back-bending attitude of brits. They are simply too scared to take on terror-ideologist like Choudhary. I have seen Choudhary getting condemned by muslims but he refuses to buckle and keeps embarrassing fellow muslims.
    What stops UK mosques from declaring Choudhary as NON-MUSLIM? Deny his burial rights as per Islam, boycott him and his association. Why don’t muslims deal with this one sick SOB?

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    zindagi naam hai mar mar ke jeye jane jane ka.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Terror-Autar,
    Stop Shero-Shairi, address the topic.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    rajeev understand this,

    Rajeev Reply:

    I don’t want to understand talibani language.

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev, just after 9/11, a young boy of about 17yrs born in Glassgow of Pakistani Parentswrote
    a letter that was piblished in “letter to the Editor” page.
    He said he feels british himself , but is dismayed and confused when he sees Racist remark hurled at him. He said ALL HIS RELATIONS AND FAMILY FRIENDS AND THEIR FRIENDS SUPPORT 9/11 AND OSAMA BIN LADEN , THOUGH THEY WILL NOT OPENLY SAY THIS.
    As for English , the culture is unique UNDERSTATEMENT is their trade mark. That they dont howl or scream doesn’t mean they approve. They hate him(Anjum Choudhuri) like hell and the extreeme right thugs , if they come across him , his face wont be the one that he was born with.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @rajeev, hand on heart, I do not have a casteist bone in my body. I just found it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that shan is a doctor. Sorry, but the comments made about his SC ST status was simply to explain my utter bafflement at how this SOCIAL VERMIN got an MBBS.
    I pride myself on my friends circle- a man is known by the company he keeps- and the gems in my drawing room durbar hehe, are doctors. Such refined cultured individuals who put this Jat to shame.

    So when I come across a cheap boaster (bmw car), name caller (ravi circumcised), Islamophobe (hundreds of examples) my blood boils. You hindus have weak spines, SHAN spins this doctor web and everyone is too timid to challenge him.
    He debates politely, I will leave him alone. Once again sorry puttar for my seemingly casteist statements.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Balwinder paaji,
    [@rajeev, hand on heart, I do not have a casteist bone in my body. I just found it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that shan is a doctor. Sorry, but the comments made about his SC ST status was simply to explain my utter bafflement at how this SOCIAL VERMIN got an MBBS.]
    Please read what you wrote. You are infering that if a person is uncultured, he has to be MBBS. What makes you think that a doctor can not express his emotions using common language? There are lot of MBBS doctors in India with no heart who indulge in selling human organs. Are those all SC/STs. Shan may have gone overboard but no one has right to call him using casteist terms. I also dislike Shan’s generalizations about Sikhs and cowbelt wallahs like me. This is the kind of attitude that has kept us divided.

    [So when I come across a cheap boaster (bmw car), name caller (ravi circumcised), Islamophobe (hundreds of examples) my blood boils. You hindus have weak spines, SHAN spins this doctor web and everyone is too timid to challenge him.]
    As far as Ravi is concerned, I am with Shan. He is a troll and basically a closet terrorist. You should be very careful with these elements. We Indians try to see good in everybody but evil minded people like ravi are devoid of any goodness. As far as Islamophobia is concerned, it is increasing because of deeds of islamic terrorists and muted response of scared ordinary muslims. It is true that Hindus have weak spine but that gives us flexibility to survive and thrive.

    [He debates politely, I will leave him alone. Once again sorry puttar for my seemingly casteist statements.]
    I agree with you. Except for Ram Autar and Ravi, everyone deserves respect here.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Correction-
    Please read “Please read what you wrote. You are infering that if a person is uncultured, he has to be MBBS. ”

    as

    “Please read what you wrote. You are infering that if a person is uncultured, he has to be SC/ST. “

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    As far as KSA is concerned, it is an evil empire just like erstwhile USSR. To kill the wahabism, KSA should be dismantled but before that all sane countries have to make their economies oil independent..that means another 100 years.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Except for Ram Autar and Ravi, everyone deserves respect here Brahminists are told not to speak truth, according to their scriptures

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Brahminists are told not to speak truth, according to their scriptures

    Rajeev Reply:

    Are you talking about Taquiya?

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ok, now for some relief– a real (I mean real) magazine by Al Queda for our sisters and mothers and daughters

    http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/al-qaedas-cosmo/

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    That’s really funny..looks like Mujahideens are now into beauty parlours.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    they are are al faida not alqaida.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Me being proud of Dawood???

    I have been on this blog close to 2 years now & the posts from non muslims can be broadly divided into 2 categories..
    1) ppl giving constructive criticism of islam and wishing for the good of the community, because they realsie that India can grow only if all communities thrive and prosper which cannot be done by sowing hate. Here you have ppl such as Ashish, Gopi, shan etc. I appreciate and like such comments.
    2) PPl absolutely hating Islam and muslims and criticizing Islam for its own sake. They bring out the doings of muslims from all over the world and paste it here. For them the only good muslims are dead muslims. Here i would place ppl such as Rajeev, Raj & Sam (who has seems to have now left the blog).

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    SYED HATE IS THEIR DUTY.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Chup rah Khote de puttar.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I knew you would say something like this. I just questioned your statement. Anyway you are free to hold your opinion.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    Explain me why you think I hate Islam? You are making a serious charge. You showcase yourself as liberal but you continue to maintain that there was no temple at Ayodhya. In the same spirit can you accept that Kaaba was actually a pagan temple which was occupied by Mohammad and his follower or Temple mount was occupied by muslims. If you wish to be rational then be 100% rational. I have always valued your comments but I can not take smug comments such as ‘Dawood bombing Bombay’ lying down. As far as Shias are concerned, I accept the fact that Indian Shias did very little harm compared to Indian sunnis but that doesn’t mean Shias are any better that Sunnis outside of India.

    No hard feelings..but it looks like you are not very receptive to criticism.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    rajeev/Syed-

    Shias did not get involved i9n airline and airport and train station and manhattan bombings..It was all Sunnis.

    Shias are involved in localized issues like West Bank and Lebanon and Iraq, rightfully so.
    So, I will not group them under the Sunni umbrella as far as terrism is concerned.

    No Iranian terrorist ever bombed US targets. Itw as US that bombed down an Iranian plane.

    Rajeev Reply:

    But Shias also deny Israel right to exist. Their hatred for jews is legendary. There are terror groups sponsored by Iran who compete in terrorism with mainstream sunni terrorism.

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @vinay, raj, rajeev and benoy- I notice all of you are getting blood pressure because of ramautar. Can I say something simple- IGNORE HIM
    U WRITE 1 ANTI ISLAMIC SENTENCE, the lil feller writes 1000 anti hindu sentences.
    Try it, just ignore whatever he writes, watch your bp and sugar, hehe

    @vinay- spot on abt SHAN. Dr Misra had just started an interesting thread- syed had said that hindus drag down the malaysian IQ , or something like that and mishraji very rightly showed that Indians PULL UP RESULTS IN THE WEST. Dammit puttar, I have lived in england for 30 years, this is fact here. My kids went to a private school in middlesex, and the white headmaster said quite openly that he welcomed Indian kids.

    so here i am, looking forwaard to syed and mishraji and gopi trade pearls, and this punk SHAN turns up, starts abuse, kills off debate, and struts around in that vulgar way of his. tell u, i hate abuse, but the day that brash young kid riswan called him a ‘bar steward’- tell you my whisky tasted wonderful that day

    Rajeev Reply:

    Balwinder,
    This is not an attempt to unite non-muslims against muslims (as Syed percieves it) but an attempt to present the TRUTH.
    Read this book from Gurcharan Singh Talib SGPC on 1947 partition. He has detailed each and every incident. You will find that Godhra like train burning was an art perfected by muslims in those times. The modus operandi was same in Godhra.
    Do read this book (at the bottom of the page with all the chapters) and you will find lot of parallels in methods of violence used by Islamists in those day and the methods used today.
    http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Muslim_League_Attack_on_Sikhs_and_Hindus_in_the_Punjab_1947

    I don’t think Ravi is a sikh but he wishes he too can read some truth for a change.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    this is propganda clip.posted by parivar

    Rajeev Reply:

    Never know SGPC was part of Sangh…Terrorist have pea-sized brain..evidence Mo-Autar and ravi.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    IGNORE HIM
    U WRITE 1 ANTI ISLAMIC SENTENCE, the lil feller writes 1000 anti hindu sentences

    good advice to all of u by balwinder bhai.i dont write anti-hindu i expose the lie.though it is very exhausting for me as well.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Just found a joke from pakistan…It’s a treat to watch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytnh7vxXSmQ

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    these rubbish are all are made for propaganda purpose.

  • http://- Rajeev

    I read statements for few muslims here. I just want to understand what is the difference between these-
    1. Syed – He is kind of proud that when Dawood did 1993 blasts in Mumbai, it scared hindus. Can he explain this to us? Why is he proud of a terrorist? Now if hindus says that Gujarat riots scared muslims, will you agree with this statement?

    2. Rizwan – He says that we muslims are prepared to reply blah blah blah..basically I see this as a threat to hindus…accept what we do else…. How is this statement any different from liberal Syed’s? Didn’t we create pakistan for these kinds of muslims who wanted their writ run large unhindered?

    These are the statements from liberal and moderate muslim. Let’s not even discuss fundoo like ravi and ram autar.

    If we hear such kind of statements from liberals how do we expect other side to keep quiet? To me it looks like most liberal muslims is far more fundamentalist than most fanatic hindu. We need to achieve the balance.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Rajeev

    I believe you have taken both of them out of context….

    Syed did not say he was proud of what Dawood did. If I remeber, he was indicating how politicians and gundas take advantage of a situation, like what Dawood did after Babri.

    Rizwan’s may be a poor choice of expression in that particular instance. I remeber him saying that “we will be like Agarwal, Singh, Chatterjee etc on this blog and reason through these blogs as they do” or something like that. He felt some guys were getting away with “murder” with false accusation and connections.

    Both Syed and Rizwan are quite reasonable people with soundful analysis and reasoning. Soft corners are alright as long as they do not colour. Your present atatck on them is more because you have a little soft corner for Hindus, sometimes I may come across as soft pedalling to Christians . Little soft corners are Ok as long as we focus on the country and its forward direction with proper considersation for our treasured culture..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I stand corrected as I did not read each and every post.

    I have no soft corner for any community including hindus but I find Islamic agressiveness extemely annoying.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    I have no soft corner for any community including hindus
    then fight for , WHY India’s Govt. is not producing the jailed Purohit and his fellow conspirators before the court and charging them.

    The police and even IB which have been so far so kind to these forces have now found the hand of AB and RSS in all the secret bomb explosions in which hundreds of Muslims have been arrested. All of them are still rotting in jails though enough proof is available that Muslims had no part in it. Yet these innocents are not released.

    The key element in the Aseemananda confessions is that the RSS is not involved in violence and does not believe in violence.

    But history of India proves the exact opposite. The violence unleased in the Babri Masjid and hundreds of anti-Muslim, anti-Christian and anti-Sikh riots proved the pervasive Brahminical violence

    Rajeev Reply:

    When ATS nabs muslim men on terror, you call it conspiracy but when same ATS arrests hindus, you take it as GOSPEL TRUTH…
    Make up your mind about ATS.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    you take it as GOSPEL TRUTH…
    Make up your mind about ATS.

    another stupidity decision are made on truth and proofs not on religion.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Syed did not say he was proud of what Dawood did. If I remeber, he was indicating how politicians and gundas take advantage of a situation, like what Dawood did after Babri.

    gopi ,dawood was the awnser of brhmnst gundaism and govt failure to protect the life and property of muslims.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @rajeev puttar, apologies for my anger at SHAN.

    Here is a quiz for u- a bit of cut and paste from above-
    this gem from SHAN- ‘…so i went to see the family , they were seeking my opinion , i told them , my skin colour is brown and whites wont like to be lectured by a brorn guy. I knew they were ******** things up , i got in touch with a japanese prof via email , managed to forward his opinion to a tamil doctor working under the white guy,but they didn’t act and that was that.This family was Hindu……
    —————————
    Mr rajeev, hand on heart tell me This incoherent gibberish is written BY A DOCTOR????!!!!!!
    there are worse examples

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Paaji,
    I agree with you on these statements from Shan but Doctors can also write like this. Afterall they are also humans like us.

    Shan,
    Please tone down little bit.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    what a joke

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I never knew terrorists understood jokes.

    Ravi Reply:

    :) , :) , :) , :) , :)

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    balwinder jee thoda joke kiya tha maaf kar deejiye ga.rajeev ne mayyat mein aane ka waeda kiya.agar theek se ek bottle laga ke aiye to unse wahin maafi maang loonga.
    joke seriousness pyar mohabbat sab life ka hissa hai.thanks.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Ashish bhai, did you inject your insomnia into me. But that is what I deserve if I leave my laptop by my bedside, I roll over log on listen to Amy Winehouse -back to black- and I blog. Hate you guys lol

    Rajeev, I dont think syed ever said anything even remotely positive about Dawood. I called him a gutter rat last week. I dont think you understand us muslims at all, we would tear Kasab limb by limb if he was ever handed to us. Have u seen shootout at lokhandwala- true story based on A MUSLIM POLICE OFFICER who put the fear of god into the underworld.

    What I had said then was this- I grew up in one of the best public schools in Delhi and then graduated from DU. I have pride and confidence that I wear on my sleeve. I dont shy away from issues as my parents gen did- I will speak up on any issue like any Gupta, Sharma, Singh or Rao, ie, like an Indian.Maybe not like a Sandhu, lol paaji tusi kya ho gaya.

    ramavtar- he is a zaid hamid clone, ignore him
    ravi-too anti hindu
    shan- culture of a cleaner from heathrow, a doctor ?? that would be depressing

    navratans- Gopi Sir, doc mishra, syed bhai, vinay, balwinder paaji. inshallah may they keep writing here

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    tum fatwe kab se jaree karne lage.what u will do if u get purohit.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    navratans- Gopi Sir, doc mishra, syed bhai, vinay, balwinder paaji

    to tum akbar badshah ho.public school wale crowd dekh ke peshab kar dete hain.hum bhi isi class ke hai tum logon ko achchi tarah jante.people like have no place in muslim society.

    if i have written any thing wrong or ravi has written untruth challenge him.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    rajeev is mentally sick person.

    shan Reply:

    This is the gibberish , it will remain gibberish for all the bloggers here including panditji. Let mass not be confused with class. For confidentiality reason all references have been deleted.
    From: Shan******************* [mailto:******************@hotmail.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, March*****, 2011 4:59 PM
    To: ************shi@t******iya-hp.jp
    Subject: Encapsulating peritonitis

    Dear Prof k***********i, I am writing to you for your help in a very unfortunate case.This patient is no relation , but a friend of mine. He has undergone recently, surgery for EPS in England , sometime in November. I am a general surgeon. I try to talk to the surgeons in charge of his care .Looks like they are at their wits end.
    I read your paper in Perit Dial Int 2005;25(S4):S39-S47.
    After reading your paper i felt there is no other person in the world better qualified to help.
    The patient is an Asian (Indian) male 52 yr old. Renal failure due to small shrunken kidneys.
    Peritonial Home Dialysis 1989-1991. Transplant 1991, Transplant Nephrectomy in 1999, due to Transitional cell carcinoma in transplant Kidney. Back to peritonial dialysis till 2007, after 2007 Haemodialysis .
    He has has several bacterial peritonitis from his peritonial dialysis. Gastrointestinal symptomps in the way of indigestion and “green bile” vomitting started around 2008.But was referred to gastroenterologist who did several gastroscopy ,prescribed proton pump inhibitor, till i barged in and said anybody vomitting bile is obstruction full stop.Then he had a CT with contrast which showed entire small bowel dilated and thickened with some peritonial calcification. He underwent Laparotomy sometime in November2010 , with enterolysis .However a hole was made fifteen centimetre from duodeno jejunal flexure . This was brought out as stoma .After a prolonged stay of about eight weeks, where he continued to have vomitting and massive output from his stoma , he was discharged home. EPS surgery is only done in two centres in Britain. So he went home some sixty miles down south . He became unwell after few days with vomitting and fever. A CT scan at a local teaching hospital showed collection at Right Upper quadrant . This was drained under ?Ultrasound guidance and a drain left in situ. . The local hospital contacted the hospital where his EPS surgery took place
    He now devoloped a fistula from his drain site.His current problem is he is having intractable fever , has had six CTscans in a period of two months and what they have found is several pockets of collection all over the peritonial cavity. They have drained the biggest one in left Upper Quadrant. The drained fluid have grown ********************** His fistula is not producing much discharge . His albumin is around 19.
    They have removed his pick line through which he was getting his Totalparenteral nutrition (TPN) feed , as initially the fever(39C) was thought to be due to line sepsis.However he continues to get fever 38-39C
    and the surgeons here basically haven’t got a clue. I think he may be getting recurrence of his EPS and incredible though it may appear surgeons here are contemplating enterectomy which your article strongly advises against.I will be very very grateful if you give your thoughts.
    As for me I hail from Calcutta , which is in the eastern part of India. Calcutta has a tenous connection with Japan. One gentleman from Calcutta named Rash Behari Bose was one of the judges presiding over the trial after the second world war. He is the only one who dissented with the verdict. Japanese politician visiting india make a point of visiting his house in calcutta.Do please respond , I will be eagerly awaiting your response , so will the helpless unfortunate family of the patient , Kind Regards .DR S.************ FRCS

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Rash Behari Bose of burwan was one the greatest person india produced durin freedom struggle.helped subjash chandra to make ina.was my ideal during youth.tthsnks for reminding.
    him.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Your kind of traitors should not take names of such great people. Stick with your prophet Osama.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ras bihari bose would have cut the neck of people like u.he was true nationalist.hated the brhmnst.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shut up…Osama’s son.

    Ravi Reply:

    Rizwan

    It saddened me to read this contribution of yours.

    Normally, I do not feel the need to explain my position, but on this occasion I will make an exception.

    Just so that you understand.

    I am not ANTI Hindu, let alone TOO ANTI HINDU. I am a HINDU.

    Most contributions I make here are either,

    Pointing deficiencies in the Hindu Religion and/or Indian Culture. Believe me there are many. I do those merely in response to Islamophobic statements made by other bloggers here.

    I retaliate to provocative IRRATIONAL and RACIST comments made by SHAN and Un-ashemdly abuse him as a retort to personal abuse thrown at me by him.

    However, I am conscious of the fact when instead of contributing to the blog, if one becomes the subject of it, then it is time to go.

    So guess what.

    I am gone.

    Enjoy Shan’s company. You deserve him.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    dont give him any explanation we are like this.i accept u as u are ,u should accept me as i am.

    if u want to deal with me deal as i am.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    I am not ANTI Hindu, let alone TOO ANTI HINDU. I am a HINDU.

    hindu means brhmnst(not brhmns)u should be proud of anti-brhmnst.they are in root of all the problems in india.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram

    You betetr stop blaming a whole group of people. Brahimns have bad apples, like any other groups.

    Be erady to accept that all Muslims are terrorists (instead of the 30%) if you go on branding all except Muslims as evil – all along you have stated that jews, christians, Westerners, Hindus (except dalits) as evil, except hoho Muslims….

    And you have to stop the nonsense that 9/11 was not done by muslims and that itw as an inside job, and that 11/26 was an inside job etc.. Go to Pakistan if it is glowing country..

    You are a pest , a sucker, a hate monger, …Dont use the name Ram..

    let me tell you, Muslims do not need any enemies with friends like u!

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram Autar

    Your constant lying and constant attempt to whitewash history and deny information and not learn anything new makes me pu..

    No wonder, you are not interested in any learning, not only that you want to destroy learning institutions.. After all, you are the descendent of the guy who demolished Nalanda and Vikralinga Universities of Ancient india.. Your ancestor Khilji destroyed them because he did not want any fr–ng un iversity or learning or tecahing.

    Is animosity to learning in the Muslim DNA?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    The only way to deal with trolls like Ravi and Ram Autar is to ignore them because they have a terrorist mindset which you can never reform. Both of these gentlemen are dangerous to civil society and should be reported to authorities for supporting Al-Qaeda. They are really pushing their luck.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    we were the m0st learned people.1001 innovative inventions made us.u were hating the education.education is sole property of brhmns.what was the achievement of vikrmalinga universities.women was allowed to go.

    anyhow india had great ancient education system.but it was restricted to few.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    women was not allowed to go.they along with shudra were not allowed to touch vedas and other holy scriptures.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Read what Prophet Ali Sina (PBUH) says about 1001 fake Islamic inventions.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    lali sina is paid dog of international zoinism.what he will say.he speak rubbish.from algebra to alkaline from coffee to watch are muslim inventions.they are innovative in nature.

    1001 fake Islamic inventions.

    tell me one

    Rajeev Reply:

    If there are any inventions then those are persian that too pre-islamic persia.

    Ali Sina (PBUH) is prophet of truth whom the worshipper of lies like you hate.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Is animosity to learning in the Muslim DNA?

    things areother way around.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Brahminism is, therefore, the root cause of our poverty, corruption, exploitation, backwardness, illiteracy, and more than anything hate-mongering resulting in reckless violence
    this is truth and only truth.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    o After all, you are the descendent of the guy who demolished Nalanda and Vikralinga Universities of Ancient india.. Your ancestor Khilji destroyed them because he did not want any fr–ng un iversity or learning or tecahing.

    nalanda was demolished by brhmns first they physically liquidated budhhdist then their there literature.advise to destroy came from them.

    muslims libraryof baghdad and cordoba was also destroyed.

    oxford university was started with books from muslim spaiin.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    oh ram, ram

    nalanda and vikralinga universities were destroyed and books set on fire by your ancestor khiljee. Dont bring your ususal monlkey sh– about whose advice and ohh outr libraries were also destroyed…
    No Hindu ever destroyed anybody’s library or school or university. Learning is in the DNA–respecting teachers… “gurur brahmo gurur devo gurur dharmo”….Guru poornima…”vidya dhan sarva dhanal pradhan”…

    you have to accept that many muslim kings were abd, many muslims are terrorists, Muslims have major problems among themselves, rather than looking for all these loosey goosey causes… Take care of your people..let them study..achieve..accomplish.

    Indians will respect anybody irrespective of class, religion, background – respected abdul Kalam, Azim premji, Sam petroda, Narayan moorthy, shiv nadar…..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Benoy,
    This a$$ comes from Afghanistan. He celebrates destruction of Bamiyan and come here and talks about buddhism. Total troll.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    all along you have stated that jews, christians , Westerners, Hindus (except dalits) as evil, except hoho Muslims
    where i said like u are expert in lying and blaming.if i say american army is bad does not mean that christians are bad.
    brhmnst an zoinists are bad this i say.
    u are a liar and propagandist.
    muslims are not terrorist at all in india brhmnst are terrorist.
    9/11 was not alqaida work.wehy u call muslim.even america dont say.u are a lioar like brhmnst..26/11 was perpetuated my zionists and brhmnst with the help of **** gunmen.
    muslims dont need help from liars like u.
    i again confirm that terrorists are only brhmnst and zoinist.either u are a mad or paid propagandists.
    few among muslims may be terrorist.but others too have and more specially brhmnsts.
    rss is biggest and oldest terrorist organiztion in india.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-

    Pointing to deficiencies in Hindu religion/Indian culture -

    Who are you to pass this? You can say “in your perspective’..because there is no absolute list which all agreee with, unlike the statemnet many Muslims worldwide are terrorists.

    Deficiencies in indian culture — is there one “Indian culture” or different worship habits, food habits, no worship, meat eaters , vegetarians, shivites, Christians, (I believe you excluded Muslims in your “Indian culrture” statement)..So when you say “deficiencies in indian culture” –first of all how can anybody say a ny culture is deficient and what is the measurestick for deficiency..

    When a person states that Muslism commit acts of terrorism worldwide, it is a fact; and nothing to do with Islamofascism. And that statement stands alone; theer is no need to compare it with what about Budhists zillions of years ago, or what about IRA etc.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    hegde my brother It is this Brahminical spiritualism that caused a sudden spurt in scams.spiritual fascism and intellectual gondaism are the 2 gignatic octopuses eating the very vital of our society.

    GANDHI AS KING OF THE CORRUPT
    M.K. Gandhi hailed as the apostle of non-violence, walking with a simple loin cloth and fountain head of Hindu spiritualism, was the king of all the Hindu corrupt crorepatis. He made the Marwadis, once beggars, into multi-millionaires. Birlas, Dalmias, Bajajs, Ambanis, Goenkas, Sahu Jains were all blessed by Gandhi to loot the country and become rich.

    “Hindu spiritualism” is the other name for Brahminical blood-sucking exercise.

    INDIVIDUAL SALVATION
    “Brahminical philosophy” is different from all other religious philosophy. Under Islam, Christianity and even Jewish religions what is preached and practised is “collective salvation”. Followers of each religion go to their religious centers at the appointed time or day and pray to their god collectively.

    But under Brahminism you are directed to go to your temple alone and pray alone for your individual salvation alone. See the difference.

    Happiness is always collective. An individual can never be happy when the whole society is rotting, stinking, sick and suffering. Hinduism has killed our sense and sensibilities.

    This is the essence of the Hindu value system. It is this dangerous value system that makes a Hindu to make money — beg, borrow, steal or murder — and then offer a part of the money to the god (meaning the godman) and a heaven is assured for you. That is how most of the corrupt rascals caught in the scams are all “highly religious”.

    Brahminism is, therefore, the root cause of our poverty, corruption, exploitation, backwardness, illiteracy, and more than anything hate-mongering resulting in reckless violence.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    You are a troll and a terrorist. If you are going to push your luck, you can be in real trouble.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rizwan,
    I may not know you personally but have interacted with thousands of muslims so I do know what goes on in your community.
    Secondly AA Khan of ‘Shoot out at Lokhandwala fame” killed Dolas on the instructions of Dawaood Ibrahim. Do some research on that case.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    I think this blog should be re-named – SHAN IS A TWAT – because that is what almost every one here has said at one point or another.

    Even his blind supporters, Binoy and Rajeeeeev have proffered some unsavoury advice.

    This is what he thinks of himself.

    “I am not a sikh,i am a rational humanist of hindu parentage.”

    ________________________________________________________
    Here are three popularly accepted definition of RATIONALITY.
    A. the quality of being consistent with or based on logic
    B. In philosophy, rationality and reason are the key methods used to analyze the data gathered through systematically gathered observations. …
    C. The quality or state of being rational; agreement with reason; possession of reason; due exercise of reason; reasonableness; Objectivity, thoughtfulness

    Here are some statements made by you.

    Please can you enlighten people visiting by matching each of these statements with one of the definitions listed above.

    Simply say for example 1A or 6C, etc.

    1. (as much pinko pseudo liberals want that to disappear ,it aint going to go away)

    2. also somebody should have sent her a DVD of the movie MARKET starring Monisha Koirala ,which showed Arabs sixty plus coming to hyderabad for nikah (read only sex as they vanish, and it is happening with saudis all over the world and the mullahs have come up with a new terminology for this kind of one night stand and authenticated under the aegis of quoran) with thirteen year old.

    3. @Ashish,That is your opinion and that’s fine.I think it is bizarre to expect a market of such a third grade book that too on indian economy in UK.I dont know if you are There are more takers of Jeffrey , caught with a hooker Archer in India than USA,and that is a fact according to sales figures.The point about mental enslavement is very important .

    4. So What does Miss Roy and her chela bobby suggest. Leave kashmir in the hands OF FIDAYEEN .
    Apparently the scums (azadi jihadi complex) told the pandits MEN FOLKS LEAVE , YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR WOMEN FOLKS BEHIND

    5. @Ram Autar , you f u ck ed up as sh ole , why dont you you emigrate to bangladesh we bloggers will pay for your passage.

    6. Far more pressing isFORTY PERCENT people in Marxist west bengal do not have food all through the year THEY GO HUNGRY , hunger is widespread , every research has shown this. So those firingee inspired dreams for another day.

    7. Why doesn’t Prof Nandi come to these blogs , I for one will give him a hard time. Perhaps because he breathes the fetid air of delhi it makes him completely oblivious to the current state of affairs in WHITE WORLD.

    8. @Bobby , Bamiyan Buddha wasa UNESCO HERITAGE SITE. If Babri masjid was I WOULDN’T GIVE A TOSS ABOUT RAM LALA , it needed to be prserved just like Taj Mahal . But it wasn’t IT WAS A DERELICT unused mosque , SO I CANT SEE A GREAT DEAL OF PROBLEM THERE. As regards Shiv Sena it is Glioblastoma grade4(the most vicious cancer known to man). In fact I have commented elsewhere I think it is far far far grave danger to india’s security, this is one virus if not exterminated will one day eat up the whole body politic and there will not be an India as we know it.

    9. @gopi thomas, no need for oops, both are valid . To call india secular is like calling bin laden , a gandhian

    10. Hindus should ask for “holocaust type reparations” from Muslims.
    Muslims killed 80 million hindus and forcefully converted many under violence/death/jizya.
    muslims should be ashamed of all the things..instead they want to continue this jihad..

    11. @MJ akbar is a hypocrite through and through , he was rabidly vocal against the supreme court verdict in shah bano case. Also he was a congress lackey , now is an example of a perfect turncoat.

    So Dr Shan, from the comfort of your Kent home, can you review some of your statements and match each of them to the definitions of RATIONALITY reproduced above.

    [Reply]

    sharmila Reply:

    Whatever shan has written is a fact barring the profanity, so what’s the hullabuloo I can’t figure it out.

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Sharmila,

    Yes, I agree with you that whatever Shan wrties is a fact barring the profanity.
    I would go further and say that sometime his analyisis on some subjects is
    just brilliant. Only problem is even after almost everbody telling/requesting him
    to stop insulting other, he doesnt listens. I hope he will tone down a bit.
    We want people like him on this blog.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Guys I am quitting for the moment , the intellectual standard is becoming to low to keep me interested, will return when Bobby returns ..

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ravi bhai ,

    balwinder aur rajeev ,paaji aur puttar hogaye hum aap ko kya kahe ke pukarein.

    kutch jo samjha mere shikwe ko to sirf ravi samjha

    mujhko jannat se nikala hua insaan samjha

    dil jo baat nikhalti hai asar rakhti hai

    asman cheer gaya nalai betaab mera.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    dil se jo baat nikhalti hai asar rakhti hai par nahin taqate parvaz magar rakhti hai.

    haal yeh hai ki dukhon se aur dukhon se

    asman cheer gaya nalai betaab mera

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why are talibanis allowed to post on this blog? Why are people engaging these terrorists in dialogue? What for?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Everyone except trolls Ravi and Ram Autar,
    These two trolls have been trying to divide people here and I see Shan vs Balwinder as part of these trolls’ design.
    Shan, I agree with many of your arguements but let us not direct our anger towards each other. There are some terror infested brains who simply want to keep pot boiling. See thru them and ignore them,

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    U FEEL ASEEMANAND WILL BE SONN HNGED

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I want Aseemanand and Purohit to be hanged first..no doubt about it.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    It looks like Zia’s blog has become meeting place to terror maggots like Ravi and Ram Autar. Does HT allow posts sympathetic to Islamic terrorism carried out by Al-qaeda-Taliban-ISI-IM-SIMI?

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    syed,
    Fortunateley the vast majority in India is category no.1
    Because of the easy access and anonymity the cyber space is swamped by internet hindus(a term used by CNN-IBN’s Sagarika Ghosh)….muslim bashing is their sole agenda..
    On the other hand the islamic terrorism is a monkey sitting on the back of muslim community..the responsibility to get rid of that scourge is the challenge of the day…people like you with the right vision can play crucial roles..i am sure you will be doing your part..Instead of blaming the whole community for the deeds of some mad people we all should unite and fight this menace.
    Shan, stay! you add spice to this blog..control that uncontrollable itch to insult.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    terrorism is created and managed by people like raymond.in india there is muslim terrorism.where there is no america there is no wars.muslim terrorism exist only on papers and zoinist media.
    lie is their staple food hate is duty.

    zoinists are the only terrorist supported by their satanic indian cousins.they are after wealth of weak and poor country.they are not against islam or muslims.
    in central asian countries they are supporting muslim fight for their freedom of religious rights.

    BASICALLY BOTH ARE ROBBERS.ELECTRONIC MEDIA IS THEIR MAIN WEAPON.MORE DANGEROUS THAN ATOM BOMBS.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    raymond.in india there is NO muslim terrorism

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    ram,
    your statement ‘there is NO muslim terrorism in India.
    you are a nut case..perpetually in a denial mood..the perfect fodder for the other lot.
    you are hitting your own stumps.. you are a pan-islamic ideologue ..as disgusting as your creed in other religions.

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    sorry forgot to mention the name of this guy- who most of you have guessed by now-We do have one internet cyber HINDU troll here who spews anti ISLAMIC AND ANTI SIKH garbage in a very shrill superficial garbage way- SHAN

    sORRY, guys I just find him cheap. No gravitas, He has never contributed something that made me think, unlike Gopi, Mishraji, Syed, Vinay, Benoy, …he actually posted a whole medical letter about one of his pts above, there is something disgusting there. my daughter had a look at it and burst out laughing.
    yes, he adds spice here

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    or after his problems with problems with shiv sena hindus their agents or hindutva goons are posting bullshit with muslim names.as per islamic laws marriage is invalid.but who cares.like if sikh girl marries a hindu of muslim man vica versa.

    now why u are forgetting filthy and rubish posts of rajeev.he is a manic.then take benoy ,he is very worried about the acts of shahzad ,while silent on drone attacks.which killed 3000 innocent people of pakistan.i respect mishrajee shan is moody and also what u said.why
    muslims have no reason to hate him.he will pay for his deeds.irfan pathan was kicked out of teams since he announced his intention to marry hindu girl.

    brhmnst wants to divide india vertically.but their hate mongerings have no taker.as 85%OF INDIANS ARE FOR PEACE.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Talibanis are making a speech…Mo-Autar, You behave just like a talibani.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mr mohan,

    except kashmir whefre war of liberation is going on.tell me where muslim terrorism is active.
    some places fight between haves and haves not do exist.but there is no organized game is going on.goverment could not give single proof in supreme court that simmi is involve in any type of terrorist activities.
    if u know any pls tell me.

    Rajeev Reply:

    “except kashmir whefre war of liberation”

    Speaks volumes about your patriotism. Pakistanis are liberated and Kashmir needs liberation and 2 decades down the line you would argue that Indian muslims need liberation. Typical termite approach.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    TELL ME SOMETHING SPECIFIC.LIE IS UR STAPLE FOOD HATE IS DUTY.I DONT NEED UR CERTIFICATE ABOUT MY PATRIOTISM.I KNOW SANGHIS VERY WELL ALL MY FRIENDS ARE FROM sangh,

    thakur bania aur nang,
    inse milkar b anee jansangh

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar,
    One doesn’t expect much from Talibani.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    to folks who comingle all Muslims into one homogeneous group—

    Well, we have a state assembly elections coming here in kerala. There are two Muslim parties – IUML (ex railway Dy minister E Ahmed’s party) and INML ( a splinter group, the eladers mainly from North India). IUML is in the Congress coalition, while INML is in the leftist/Marxist coalition.

    I congratulate both groups for dealing with the seat allocation “gentlemanly”. They are the only groups who did not do any public compalining about seat allocation. All other member parties are still fighting on number of seats for an election in April.

    Ffor the good of the state and the country, nobody has extended their hands to extremist Muslim parties like PDP/SDPI, unlike the last parliament election. They are going to fight independently, but will not get much votes, although they can tilt the margin in some of the constituencies.

    Analysts predict BJP will get their first assembly seat this time. The prediction is 2-5 seats. They attribute this to the congresss corruption, Marxist non-performance, and both parties cultivating extremist Muslims to shave off votes from the other.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Ffor the good of the state and the country, nobody has extended their hands to extremist Muslim parties like PDP/SDPI

    dear gopi,better u exposed urself,
    extremist muslims have no support among muslims.they have no vote bank hence not given any importance.but enterance of hindu fascists in assembly is bad news.though they were present in another way.kerala has port.bjp is fascist brhmnst local agent of international devisive forces.have offices all over world.for peace loving indians original indians ,news of their becoming strong is bad news.they will hurt the true original inhabitants of india.

    The crazy “Jews of India” enjoying their intoxicating power, wealth and arrogant insolence have become blind, deaf and also dumb-driven

    Politically India is bankrupt, economically impoverished, socially and morally crippled and finally surrounded by deadly enemies all round — the desertification of India is almost complete.

    On one side over 75% of indigenous Indians are kept poor, illiterate, unthinking and daily brainwashed to become “better Hindu” (meaning slaves). On the other, those opposed to the “Jews of India” like the Muslim, Christians and Sikhs are kicked, killed, burnt, raped and their little property destroyed — daily

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram:

    You should move to Bengla desh or Pkaistan or any other Muslim countries because you are always in admirtion for them-with their literacy rate, wealth, freedom etc. Why dont you move? Why live in a miserable place killing your mental and physical health?

    Or, instead of 24 hrs bull—, why dont you do something concrete, like teaching few children about your hate philosophy, or building a road or organizing another Mayawati party etc

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    this advise is more fit for u.talk economic and social issues .our education and health system we spent 1.1 lac srores on education.results are not positive.have far more love for america than india.all the time barking like dog on muslim terrorism.jinke ghar shheshe hotein hai doosroin par paththar nahin phekte.
    discuss how to make india great and strong.india needs munaf ,zaheer and pathan to be world champion.i am brought up in hindi belt,which is cradle of hinduism.i know about all religion our culture and tradition direct us to respect all thoughts and religions.my own house has temple.but i hate the haters.i forgive u ,may be u have not seen or told the thing in right perspectives.u have read propaganda instead of truth.misra jee &balwinder are true faces of indiannes.learn something from them.

    mohan Reply:

    Balwinder,
    You say to ignore Ramautar……..this is the 749th post in this blog..just because of him..otherwise all of you out there would have run out the gun powder..he keeps on poking on many social evils in our religion,and at the same time reveals how rigid and rabid is an ultra religious mind….

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    mohan i am not practising muslim i dont remember when i have gone to mosque last.but i hate liars and haters.i expose them whenevr i can.i have seen how friends changed,because of lying
    of parivar.

    Rajeev Reply:

    “mohan i am not practising muslim”

    then what are you- a terrorist muslim????

    Ashish Reply:

    Back to the subject of this blog: some random thoughts- also covers some of the “tu tu main main” above- in no particular order
    1. The general backwardness of the Muslims in India- is a fact. Question really is, whether that can be addressed by creating walls and boundaries or by intermingling, shared spaces.
    2. For all the efforts Ram Autar makes in trying to find common causes among Muslims and backward castes in India and linking Brahmins and Zionists and natural allies- there is no proof of the latter and no votary for the first.
    Let me deal with the first postulate: that the Hindu backward castes and Muslims are “brothers”. When even Jats and Gujjars and fight pitched battles over sharing the economic pie, you expect them to accomodate the Muslims?
    Please, please read some serious sociologists: like MN Srinivas. He has conclusively shown that the adjacent classes in social order are the most antagonistic. Also understand an upper class Hindu and an upper class Muslim lead very similar lives; are able to laugh at the same jokes, move in the same social circle. In their circle, money talks and accomplishments matter.
    I understand and empathise with the impatience that people from both sides display. Because, I believe the common cause is this:
    If the Muslims do not progress, 13-17% of Indians stay backward, it is a huge drain on the rest of us. We have to make them competitive along with all others. This is pure economic logic.
    If there are customs that get in the way, especially the “immutability” principles, I hope Muslims as a whole work together to excise those customs from their community. The biggest inspiration for them should be the backward castes in the Hindu community who demanded and got a place in the mainstream- along with everyone else.
    Jagjivan Ram, an illustrious alumnus of my university attended classes by standing outside the classroom. This would be unthinkable in the shared hostels, messes of today. Now, if an embittered Ram had fought for separate “minority institutions” for Dalits, then I daresay, a lot of gains that have accrued to the Dalits in the last 50 years would never have been there.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I could not have agreed with you any more than I do.

    Here is some thing I wish to share with you. All the meaning is in it.

    ______________________

    ab kyaa bataa_uu.N mai.n tere milane se kyaa milaa

    ab kyaa bataa_uu.N mai.n tere milane se kyaa milaa
    irfaan-e-Gam huaa mujhe dil kaa pataa milaa

    [irfan = knowledge/wisdom]

    jab duur tak na ko_ii fakiir-aashnaa milaa
    teraa niyaaz-mand tere dar se jaa milaa

    [niyaaz-mand = humble/obedient]

    manzil milii muraad milii mudda’a milaa
    sab kuchh mujhe milaa jo teraa naqsh-e-paa milaa

    [muraad = desire/wish; mudda'a = meaning/desire]

    yaa zaKhm-e-dil ko chiir ke siine se phe.nk de
    yaa aitaraaf kar ki nishaan-e-vafaa milaa

    [aitaraaf = admit/agree]

    “Seemab” ko shaguftaa na dekhaa tamaam umr
    kambaKht jab milaa hame.n kam-aashnaa milaa

    [shaguftaa (shiguftaa) = cheerful/happy; tamaam = entire]
    [kam-baKht = unfortunate/unlucky person]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    ravi bhai ,
    hum aisee sab kitabein qabile zabtee samajhte hain,

    ki jinko padh ke bete baap ko khapti samajhte hai.

    ,

    rajeev bhai ke saath,

    yadi aap mujhe adesh karein

    to hum\ prem ka shree ganesh karein.

    bahut bhonkh chuka hai.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar.

    Please never ever change.

    Here is what we should do with him.

    Maa Sunao mujhe wo kahani,
    jisme rajeev na ho, na ho Shani …

    Jo humari tumhari katha ho,
    jo sabhi ke hriday ki vyatha ho…

    Gandh jisme bhari ho dharaa ki,
    baat jisme na ho apsara ki …

    Ho na pariyaaN jahaaN aasmaani
    jisme rajeev na ho … na ho Shani

    Wo kahani jo hansna sikha de,
    pate ki bhookh ko jo bhula de…

    Jisme sach ki bhari chaandni ho,
    Jisme ummeed ki roshni ho….

    Jisme na ho kahaani purani …
    jisme rajeev na ho … na ho Shani

    Maa Sunao mujhe wo kahani,
    jisme rajeev na ho, na ho Shani …

    Rajeev Reply:

    Chup kar Talibani…Gitmo jaane ki tayyari kar…

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar,
    Mein tera jija hu…

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ravi,
    you are trying Urdu on me? That too poetry? Thank you for the thought, but the embarrassment is all mine :)

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ashish-

    Well put.

    However, instead of moving forward, there is an intense pull backward among some section of Muslims. There is serious discussion on length of beard in this group. Let us hope the agents of change and progress will prevail.

    I think the best way to handle a lot of our issues is to completely overhaul the “reservation” system to a need based system based on some income requirement, that way irrespective of religion, caste etc all the deserving ones get pushed up. That way politicians cannot keep a section like Muslims always as their vote bank always bringing up fringe issues and not “meat and potato”. The country will be better off if all politicians work towards bringing all deserving ones up bringing xx% more to the middle classs every 10 years..

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shoeb,
    Length of beard, huh? Talk about burning issues :-)
    You know, if only we, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs… spent a little more time worrying about mundane things like how to feed our families, how to build a bigger/ better house, how to educate our children and as a natural extension, how to push the government to deliver on those areas; rather than whether the constitutional guarantees on freedom of religion also includes a break for prayers 5 times a day..
    One of my reportees used to take 5 times a day prayer break and double that number “smoke breaks”. One day, I had to tell him to choose- either he is a devout Muslim and takes the “constitutionally guaranteed” prayer breaks or he is not; in which case he gets to take the nicotine breaks, which are bad for his constitution- and frowned upon by his religion. Guess which one he chose?

    Ravi Reply:

    Prayer Breaks.

    I think that prayer breaks taken by Muslims is in reality not a big issue.

    In UK very few Muslims actually take these breaks and those who do are sufficiently conscientious to make the time up by working that much longer. Prayer break involves no more disruption than a coffee or smoking break. Where employees are allowed breaks for smoking, it would be difficult to justify a refusal of a prayer break, provided this was for a similar length of time.

    However, we should not confuse policy and religion with an individual who uses prayer breaks as a political weapon. In absence of prayer breaks, such employees would have used other excuses to be disruptive.

    Ashish Reply:

    @All,
    my reportee (yes, Ravi is spot on- the word is an Amercanism, for which I apologise) chose the smoke breaks- what did you expect?
    @Ravi, I agree. It was a case of a disruptive employee. He soon found multiple ways to trip himself up.
    I think the point I was trying to make was not explicit enough. See, in an earlier post, I had said that we do not confront the religious bogeymen head-on. “I wish our government had the balls to ….”
    Most of the time, the government does not have the guts; because they are worried about the consequences. But, as Syed used to point out many months back- there probably need be no fear if the intentions are right and the cause is just.
    I am sorry if this was misinterpreted- from the torrent of one liners flowing between Ravi and Shan, it certainly seemed to be a disruptive post; for which I apologise.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Terrorist speaks…again on muslim prayers…a hindu..no a sikh…actually a talibani.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    dalits have huge reservation in jobs hence they study more.for muslims job is also problem so they go their traditional job.but bichauleye are sucking 90%of their share.
    poors and workers class should have political power bania class will not allow them to have even2 meals a day.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    in bihar one university is being run with my financial help.i have to sit here because of u.i cannot allow u to twist the facts.

    Rajeev Reply:

    CHup baith Ullu ke patthe..saale madrase ki aulaad..

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Because of the easy access and anonymity the cyber space is swamped by internet hindus(a term used by CNN-IBN’s Sagarika Ghosh)….muslim bashing is their sole agenda

    they are paid dogs of international zoinism.like rajeev and vinay hegde.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    if 15 million zionists make the 1.5 billion muslims and arabs pee in their pants – darwin’s theory says u r doomed…

    get alife man, instead of ranting against all human beings – except muslims and dalits –
    try to love ur fellow humanity..shed some tears for the japanese..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Zionists or Jews whom all muslims of all colors want wiped off are biggest victim of Islamic and christians fanaticism.
    It is duty of Indic faiths to stand with Jews and support them against Islamic terror.

  • Rizwan

    my comment got hidden in a tsunami of troll hate above. ramavtar take a break, go to Goa and smoke a chillum for a month. i am sure all of us will contribute to your vacation lol-

    Ashish bhai, did you inject your insomnia into me. But that is what I deserve if I leave my laptop by my bedside, I roll over log on listen to Amy Winehouse -back to black- and I blog. Hate you guys lol

    Rajeev, I dont think syed ever said anything even remotely positive about Dawood. I called him a gutter rat last week. I dont think you understand us muslims at all, we would tear Kasab limb by limb if he was ever handed to us.

    What I had said then was this- I grew up in one of the best public schools in Delhi and then graduated from DU. I have pride and confidence that I wear on my sleeve. I dont shy away from issues as my parents gen did- I will speak up on any issue like any Gupta, Sharma, Singh or Rao, ie, like an Indian.Maybe not like a Sandhu, lol paaji tusi kya ho gaya.

    ramavtar- he is a zaid hamid clone, ignore him
    ravi-too anti hindu
    shan- culture of a cleaner from heathrow, a doctor ?? that would be depressing

    navratans- Gopi Sir, doc mishra, syed bhai, vinay, balwinder paaji. inshallah may they keep writing here

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rizwan,
    Amy Winehouse, eh? This is Amy before the rehab or after the rehab?
    Was visiting my alma mater, BHU couple of weeks back. Chillums.. now, now.. let the sleeping dogs of my past slumber on :)
    I said it a long time back on this blog and I say this again, the cultural secretary of the Saraswati Puja that we held on campus in BHU in our time was a Bangladeshi Muslim. It scares me that such people might be becoming extinct.
    The Indian culture maybe overwhelmingly Hindu but it is NOT just Hindu and not homogeneous. But, do we want it any other way?
    When we stick to a ghetto, we do a disservice to our future generations. When Shankar Ehsan Loy produce music, do we only listen to Shankar Mahadevan because he is a Hindu?
    I went to a university with Hindu in its name, deep inside the “cowbelt” as Shan never tires of pointing out. But, my college was a mini India- with Keralites, Sardarjis, Bongs, Tams, Gults, Ghats (see, I can be politically incorrect too, with the confidence borne out of the easy use of the the terms over the years to these folks’ faces), Bhaiyyas… and the lessons of those days have stayed with me over the last quarter century.
    Back to the subject of this blog:
    1. I oppose the concept of Jamia Milia being accorded minority status. I think it is ridiculous that the decision is being defended on the grounds that it will somehow address, and I quote from Zia’s post here:
    The literacy rate of Muslims is well below the national average, according to the November 2006 Sachar report. Muslims — mostly Sunnis — make up 13.4% of India’s population, yet hold fewer than 5% of government jobs and make up just 4% of undergraduates. For a community lagging on educational indicators, the minority status helps speed up minority enrolment.
    I was waiting for someone to ask this simple question, how will according minority status to Jamia Milia Islamia, which is a university for chrissake, help low literacy among the Muslims in India?
    2. On the contrary, it will promote 2, both avoidable feelings:
    - Government is appeasing the Muslims, or worse, it is appeasing the obscurantist elements of the Muslims. The feeling gets reinforced as we see the legal challeges are being mounted, not by Hindus but by Muslims- a Jamia alumnus to boot.
    - because this minority status ensures there will be no more reservations for SC/ ST/ OBC categories, so actually the biggest losers are the disadvantaged groups in the Hindu society- not the upper castes/ classes. I wonder why Ravi or Ram Autar are not concerned.
    Fundamentally, this highlights the tendency which I have bemoaned in the past, often in this blog; the tendency to focus on symbolic gestures and actions which leave no impact and cost little to deliver but, has impact on votebank.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Whether good , bad, or indifferent, students of a college with a name like Jamia Milla will find it difficult to get a job – recruiters will think it is a post graduate madrasa school, or terrorist manufacturing center, or exclusive Muslim school where kids do not ahve interaction with others. Nothing Islamophobic, world is such.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    recruiters are not idiots and ill informed liken u.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Benoy,
    We can not say that graduates coming out of Jamia will not be hired. In private sector, merit is mostly the criteria for hiring and as far as govt. jobs are concerned, these graduates have higher chances of getting hired because of new pro-minority (read only muslims) policies of divide and rule UPA govt.

    I always wonder why is it that minority and muslims have become interchangeable terms in govt. policies. Even our media does the same thing.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy and Rajeev,
    the advantage that an university has, is that paradoxically its departments many times acquire a life of their own- beyond the image conjured up by the name of the university.
    The School of Mass Comm in Jamia is pretty well known and has produced many well known journos, filmmakers and advertising professionals. The latest example I can give is the director of Peepli Live, Ms Rizvi.
    Of course you can point out that perhaps many HT editors are a product of the same place and so is the infamous “Tell me what Shall I tell them” Ms Dutt. But then, I would counter by saying Mr Rajat Gupta went to IIT Delhi and Harvard before going on to head McKinsey and now has been in the news for all the wrong reasons.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ mohan, “”"the cyber space is swamped by internet hindus”"”"
    Maybe you are new to the cyberworld. Go to TOI articles, where UNCENSORED comments are allowed afterwards. You will see the most vile anti Indian, anti sikh anti hindu, anti Jewish abuse by commentators with muslim names (Indian or Pak?)
    Same applies for youtube. My daughter is a fan of Shahrukh and she posted some vids of the star- she was digusted by some terrible comments on him by muslims who hate him because his wife is hindu and they celebrate navratri and eid!!

    We do have one internet cyber HINDU troll here who spews anti ISLAMIC AND ANTI SIKH garbage in a very shrill superficial garbage way

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    balwinder bhai most of the site i visit i find muslim bashing from last 10 years.on this site even .

    other sites also.if u don not know i will tell u.i come here to speak truth i dont support muslim
    or hindu.sole shaitans are zoinists to my knowledge.

    shahrukh khan has become villian of hindu media.since he advocated for pakis to play and returned the donation of the marwadi who got his son in law murdered.

    i dont know about younger generation but keeping hindu wife is not sin.may they are paid agent.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Rajeev,

    In many ways I am like shan, I call a spade a spade, my community or others be dammed, but maybe I use softer language.

    “”Explain me why you think I hate Islam (and muslims)? You are making a serious charge”.
    This is the conclusion I have drawn reading your posts for the better part of 2 years. Like just now I observe you are trying to unite the non muslim bloggers against muslims.

    “”You showcase yourself as liberal but you continue to maintain that there was no temple at Ayodhya”.
    When the judges have a split verdict on Ayodhaya are you certain that there was a FUNCTIONAL temple at Ayodhaya before the babri masjid was built.To repeat myself, the babri masjid was built by a shia. You are as well aware as me, of the secularism of north indian shias.

    In the same spirit can you accept that Kaaba was actually a pagan temple which was occupied by Mohammad……..”
    I accept that the Kaaba was a pagan temple which was later occupied by Mohammad.

    Anything else?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    [This is the conclusion I have drawn reading your posts for the better part of 2 years. Like just now I observe you are trying to unite the non muslim bloggers against muslims.]
    I think you are making a wrong conclusion. I have been a great supporter of Sufi Islam (if you ever noticed) and Indian falvor of Islam called Barelvism. I have never used harsh words for Indian Shias because I personally have experience Shias’ tolerance and yearning for peace. When I compared Kanpur and Lucknow, I meant to compare Kanpur sunnis verses Lucknow Shias. I am getting distressed looking at continuous attack on Sufi shrines and spiritual space that barelvis are ceding to deobandis. The Indian Islam is on its last leg because of Wahabis inspired Deobandis who have forced Barelvis to shed their tolerant image (as seen when Qadri murdered Taseer). I have lived among muslims and I am sorry to say that fundamentalism and deception is on rise post 9/11. This govt. of UPA has decided to back fundamentalist elements rather than standing with tolerant Indian brand of Islam.
    I’ll try my best to correct your perception about my views. In short, I have in support for Sufi Islam and is comfortable with Barelvis and Shia but wahabis inspired deobandis will always remain evil for me even at the risk of being called communal by you or others.

    [When the judges have a split verdict on Ayodhaya are you certain that there was a FUNCTIONAL temple at Ayodhaya before the babri masjid was built.To repeat myself, the babri masjid was built by a shia. You are as well aware as me, of the secularism of north indian shias.]
    There is Hindu belief that there was a temple there and on top of that Babri was defunct mosque. The muslims could have used this opportunity to show large hearedness and built a better bond with hindus and cornered BJP.

    [I accept that the Kaaba was a pagan temple which was later occupied by Mohammad.]
    This is the first time I have seen a muslim accepting the TRUTH. I hope you also agree that Golden dome mosque and Al-Aqsa are also built on occupied temple mount. If yes, how do you justify your support for Palestianians claiming that part of Jerusalem.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    rajeev u should accept and regret that in ayodhya all temples were either budhhdists or jainese .vedics plundered them and converted them into shiv temple.this process shoild be rversed and all holy temples should be returned to buhdhdists and jainese.and they should pay the losses (financial)to goverment.during siege of ayodhya thousands of monkeys died.due to starvation and hunger.
    ram gundaas burnt alive 14 innocent people of ayodhya,apart from taking out the eyes of shia muslim vice-president of bjp unit of ayodhya and faizabad.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You are a talibani so you don’t deserve an answer. First get the Bamiyan Buddhas back then we will talk.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    [To repeat myself, the babri masjid was built by a shia. You are as well aware as me, of the secularism of north indian shias]

    I have seen this arguement coming from many shias but it was rejected by sunnis because according to them Babar was a sunni so this babri was sunni mosque. Sunnis basically asked Shias to back off on babri. I remember that Shias were in favor of having a peaceful deal with hindus but fundamentalist sunnis didn’t allow that.

    After the court verdict, some shia group favored temple on that site and also donated funds for same.

    As I said, I have no problem with Shia because I see them as one of peaceful forces in India.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Shan,
    If you have genuinely felt this blog level is below your intellect to participate, then I can’t comment on your decision to quit. That’s your choice. But if you have chosen the act because you have become continuous target of people, I would wish you to think over.

    I do weigh the content of your post. But sometimes your message gets lost with your “calling spade a spade” words. In the debate on Indian IQ, Mishra was trying to argue on the basis of GCSE results of Indian community residing in UK. You opposed it saying, GCSE results show a tiny sample of Indians and do not reflect on the entire population of India like an IQ sample survey. I agreed with your point of view, but I had to pick it out of “Another bull shit sloka by panditji ” … “This is typical Indian or more specifically the response you expect from a raw sewage of hell caste” etc. Sometimes, what you want to convey gets buried under these decorations.

    You have the capacity to agree with an opponent’s view, which not many can. But in a sentence like this, “Ram ya haram or Harami, for once I fully agree with your above assessment”, your appreciation of his view gets overshadowed by the usage of gaali. Just think over it.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    rajeev,

    “Forces of history” being the law of nature are above the crab theory.
    u do not know it. The Abhinav Bharat, the emerging Hindu terrorist force, is the most dangerous and deadly force that will be our internal enemy.

    carefully follows my writings it can serve as a catalyst to accelerate the “forces of history” which are fast gathering momentum.

    Once (1) Israel collapses and (2) the US sinks under the “forces of history”, (3) the nuclear-armed Iran takes over the leadership in West Asia, (4) China, already a world force, takes over the world leadership, (5) revolutionary Muslims of Pakistan finish the corrupt Zardari regime and take over the nuclear-powered Pakistan, what will the Brahminic cockroaches like u will do? Who will come to ur aid?

    Keep a watch onmy prediction and act as the catalysts of change to speed up the “forces of history”.

    And get ready to bury Brahminism and build the New India of bahujans dream

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Once (1) Iran collapses and (2) the Islamc Ummah under the “forces of history”, (3) China, already a world force, collapses due to drop in demand for plastic toys (5) revolutionary Muslims of Pakistan finish the Pakistan and hand over the nuclear-assets of Pakistan to India, what will the Jehadi cockroaches like u will do? Who will come to ur aid?

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    nakalchi why only this if u are intelligent do full.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Nakalchi…but true…does it hurt terror boy?

  • Vinay

    @Ravi,
    “I am not ANTI Hindu, let alone TOO ANTI HINDU. I am a HINDU.”
    Anti-Hindu and Hindu are not opposites. Many of us consider the major anti-Hindus are Hindus only, like Digvijay or Mulayam.

    By the way, what was your motivation in highlighting the “deficiencies in the Hindu Religion and/or Indian Culture”? (However polished the words may be; most of the people felt you are insulting Hinduism while cautiously avoiding Islam). In your earlier post you mentioned, Hindus never had the sense of belonging to any religion till 17th century. But then earlier, you had also mentioned Hindus (to which people had no sense of belonging) were attacking Jains.

    Whatever it is, I am thankful to you for the points you raised on Hinduism. I am now attempting to understand history of my religion(/culture), something which I never bothered to know all these years. For example, Devadasi system to me was a kind of prostitution practised in rural India. When you raised the topic, I read about it. I came to know of a heritage and contribution of Devadasi system to Indian art. Even Sati. I learnt, Indian culture always had a fascination about living people who volunteered to death. Be it a solider martyred on the war field, be it a widow of a soldier (In south India, they used to erect stones in their memory), be it a married women who offers herself for a lake to avoid famine (folk songs in south of India), be it a Sanyasi undergoing Sajiva Samadhi or a Jain Muni taking Sallekhana. It celebrated every death. In spite of its fascination, it did respect the widows who decided to live and achieve. Be it Kunti or Rani of Jhansi and many such.

    If your attempt was to promote good willing towards Islam, I would say it was not very successful. It in fact made more people attack Islam. But I have seen your recent posts showing concern over Muslim issues, without pointing at Hinduism. It is indeed a welcoming change. Don’t quit at this stage.

    People’s equation keeps changing with time. In this blog too. Both you and Shan have crossed with many people including me. But we are still able to exchange our views. Who knows, what equation you two will hold after 6 months? Everyone says in the blog, they are only retaliating. We can’t go back to older posts to check, who started it first. Let’s not get prejudiced. Let’s agree to disagree. But first let’s learn to live together.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vinay,
    The problem is when a person argues with FALSE identity. He has supported Islamic terror, mocked hindus using the most colorful language (which I keep reading on pakistani forum). He has used many arguements that are exact copy of arguments from fundamentalist Islamic forums. He is not what he claims to be. His thought process is very much of that a terrorist. Mo-Autar is also in the same class but obviously far more fanatic that Rabiuddin alias Ravi.
    I request you not to engage terror elements like him in any debate. If you still choose to, it is your wish.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Shan,
    I think you are a valuable contributor on this blog and a bullwork against Talibani elements. I want you to continue sharing your thoughts here because most of the people want to be politically correct 100% of the time evenif it means killing the truth. You are not one of those. We all have friends from different faith but that should not stop us from speaking the truth. The hindu attitude of bending the back has to go. The respect has to be two-way street.
    I do agree with Vinay that you need to tone down little bit. I too am hot headed like you so I too need to work on this area.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Rajeev,
    I feel everyone is a contributor to the blog in their own way, including Ram Autar (Whenever I have agreed with him, I have acknowledged him). Let there be no censoring of posts. Agree some of the posts here are very provocative and at times makes one feel, aggression cannot be countered with timidity alone. But don’t you think, it is good to challenge the views openly than censoring them? India has survived with conflicting views for thousands of years. Why is there a need to delete someones opinion for holding the opposite view? Conflicting ideas are there to be challenged not suppressed.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vinay,
    Please see my reply above. When a person openly advocates terrorism against non-muslims, shows full support for Al-Qaeda, calls Kashmir separatism as war for liberation, supports bomb blasts by LeT-IM-SIMI, you want us to engage him in civil discussion.
    You are a nice man but it doesn’t mean that you have to give respect to views of scumbags.

    I am all for debates and difference of opinion but support for terrorism is not difference of opinion in my eyes. It is actually a threat which I have to counter.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Let us have a vote here. Please everyone answer these questions so we can have count of people who want to live in conflict or peace.

    Do you support Al-Qaeda, taliban, LeT-IM-SIMI? Do you support terror in Kashmir?

    Do you support retaliatory Hindu terror as seen in malegaon?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    My reply is – NO and BIG NO.

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    Balwinder..when i condemn internet hindus pls dont read that i am exonerating the internet jihadis .
    they are equally abhorrent ..i repeat…it is a fringe group in the muslim community that cause the problems..we cannot hold the community responsible for it…do not corner a whole community for a crime they hav’nt done..do not alienate them…
    Shan’s medical report was a shocker..what does he mean ..has he lost his mind from all the heavy doze he is getting back?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mohan,
    I have interacted with with Sanghis out of curiousity and I find them comical. They make lot of false claims (such as every mosque including Taj Mahal are hindu temples), dress like jokers, that stick in their hand makes them even more comical but what makes me angry is the fact that they are mirror images of Piddu mians (fanatic sherwani-achkan-paan muslims).

    They have all those Vandanas that are not essential to be hindu. I find them regressive but I am 100% sure they are patriots but foolish ones.

    As far as internet hindus are concerned, some do exist but most of these hindus are professionals who are fed up of Congress’s divide and rule game. Most of the internet hindus want India free of Congress and Dynasty corruption.

    [Reply]

  • RAM AUTAR

    This is not an attempt to unite non-muslims against muslims (as Syed percieves it) but an attempt to present the TRUTH,another side of truth,

    Jammu Massacre 1947: ” A Father killed his daughters to save them from getting raped”

    It is one of the least known genocides in the modern history. It was carried out with such a precision that it is difficult to find its traces, except in the memories of the survivors, and the tales of horror they passed on to their next generation. It started on November 6, 1947. Nearly two hundred thousand innocent Muslims were slaughtered by Dogra army and extremists in Jammu region.
    The genocide was carried out to cleanse the Muslims from Jammu region. The Dogra troops backed up by the extremists succeeded in pushing half a million Muslims to Pakistan administered Kashmir and Pakistan.
    Rashid’s father, brothers, sisters, wife, and a son were slaughtered Malik Abdul Rashid, a survivor from Reasi, currently settled in Rawalpindi, says he was 22-year old when the carnage happened.
    “Men, women, children were killed in the cruelest manner, maimed, intimidated. The carnage continued for several days. I lost my father, brothers, sisters, wife, and a son,” Rashid said.
    “I lost all my dears; the genocide has haunted me all my life,” he said.
    On 4 November 1947, when Dogra troops entered Reasi, two highly esteemed citizens of the town, Khwaja Amkullah and Chaudhary Aziz-u-Din rushed to the office of then Deputy Commissioner Thakur Gavinder Singh, complaining against the entry of the troops when Peace Committees, comprising Hindus and Muslims, were already in place to maintain peace. Both of them were shot dead in the office.
    “People were mowed down with machine guns and swords during the night. And those who had survived were assembled in a field where they were put to death. Some women who escaped jumped into Chinab river to save their honour,”Rashid recounts.
    “Khwaja Ali Muhammad of Bhadarwah who was performing his duties as a public prosecutor at Reasi went to a police station to save his life, but the duty officer, a Dogra, handed him over to the RSS men. They dragged him out and tortured him so much that he begged them to kill him than torture him. But the barbarians cut his fingers one by one and told him ‘we will send your fingers to Pakistan’. He was killed near the court premises in broad day light,” Rashid said

    Rashid said Maharaja Hari Singh orchestrated the carnage to eliminate Muslims from Jammu.“Muslims were not even allowed to have weapons for self defense, but Maharaja distributed arms to the marauders of his community,” he said, adding the killers were trained and armed in RSS camps for the genocide.
    He said that Maharaja Hari Singh who fled from Srinagar to Jammu on 26 October1947 ordered his troops to kill Muslims everywhere.
    “The carnage started in remote villages, and many Muslims fled to towns and district headquarters. But the killers were everywhere. Hundreds of Muslims committed suicide to avoid torture,” he said.
    The killers kidnapped the daughter of legendary leader Chaudhary Ghulam Abbas, the prominent leader of Muslim Conference. Mistari Ahmed-u-Din hailing from Mast Garh Mohalla of Jammu himself killed his two daughters fearing the Hindu marauders would rape them.

    On 4 November Muslims who had escaped slaughter were asked to assemble in a ground near police station in Jammu so that they would be driven to Pakistan in buses. On November 5 and 6, 1947, scores of buses, trucks and lorries, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kathua forests where Hindu extremists and armed gangs butchered them like chickens.”

    ‘MY 3 SISTERS WERE ABDUCTED, TWO WERE RECOVERED, SURAYA IS STILL MISSING’
    Another Kashmiri migrant from Jammu, Muhammad Khan Naqashbandi, told Greater Kashmir that his mother was killed and three sisters were abducted by the marauders while they were traveling to Pakistan.
    Two of his sisters were recovered, but the youngest sister Suraya was still missing. Teary eyed Khan said,“My sister is still missing and I don’t know whether she is alive or dead. I survived because I was studying in Lahore when the carnage occurred. No Muslim can forget that genocide.”Naqashbandi said the slaughter was well planned and rehearsed to prevent people from acceding to Pakistan. Muslims were slaughtered at Mavera near Samba on November 5 and the next day carnage was carried out near cantonment in Satvari.

    ‘OUT OF 6000, 250 SURVIVED’
    Abdul Qayum Qureshi, a witness of the genocide, hails from Dalpatian Mohalla of Jammu. Qureshi told this scribe that the blood-bath of Muslims in Jammu province had started several weeks ago but the hunt against Muslims intensified when frustrated Maharaja of the state entered into Jammu on 26 October 1947 and ordered his troops to kill Muslims wherever they can be found. Mohalla Dalpatian was a Muslim majority area where thousands of Muslims from other areas had taken shelter.
    “There was a big ground where these refugees were camping. Volunteers were guarding them, but everybody lived in a state of fear. The extremists and Dogra soldiers had besieged the area but they did not dare to enter the area. Muslim volunteers led by a former army official Captain Naseer-u-din defended the camp bravely,” Qureshi said.

    Qureshi narrated the horrors thus:
    “Meanwhile a fresh group of refugees arrived but the ground was full so they were accommodated in an empty Haveli (a mansion). But the killers had taken positions in a trench close to the Haveli. And when people entered the Haveli premises, the killers started indiscriminate firing, but the Muslim volunteers fought back. Then a Dogra official, Chetan Chopra, arrived with the message that he wanted to talk to Captain Naseer-ud-din. Around 4 PM Captain Naseer returned saying the administration has announced a ceasefire and assured that the violators will be punished. The ceasefire continued for seven days but the situation remained tense. On 5 November Muslims were asked to assemble in the police lines Jammu. I remember about 26 trucks and buses were present in the police grounds. People were ordered to board the vehicles so that they could be driven to Pakistan via Sialkot border. The Dogra officials circulated a rumor that these vehicles have reached Pakistan. We had absolutely no idea that they were butchered in the Kuthwa and Samaba forests.
    On 6 November a caravan of refuges in buses and trucks was driven towards the border area. I was also part of this caravan. But after half an hour drive the entire caravan was turned towards Bisna. Around 11 AM all of us, about 6000, were dragged out of the buses. Then they fired at us indiscriminately. The bloodbath continued for nearly three hours; like other people I took refuge in a canal. People hid under thorny bushes and wherever they could. At 3 PM the Dogra officials asked the survivors to come out hiding so that they could be driven to safe places. Having no alternative we came out, and fortunately on the directives of Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah we were later shifted to a refugee camp in Jammu. Only 250 had survived. My father was in the Valley and my two brothers were in Mirpur.”

    The Massacre is long forgotten and lost in the memories of today. This massacre changed the History of Jammu Kashmir forever.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    This is coming from people who claim that Jews did 9/11. The muslims (wahabis) are master of lies.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    This is coming from people who claim that Jews did 9/11

    it is right i again say.open jammu mascare 6th nov 1947.many britishers also wrote same.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    All lies and propaganda by your ISI…Bamiyan Buddha..WHat do you say about that?

  • Ravi

    Dear Vinay.

    This is a personal note to you, and I apologise for using an open medium to transport it, for I have no other means at my disposal.

    Firstly, let me thank you for some kind words in your note and I take on board the criticisms contained in it.

    There are also some points which I feel need a serious reply and I hope to provide it here.

    For any one to be ANTI HINDU, they must express a desire and willingness to damage Hindus or Hinduism. I have never intended that. Being critical of elements of Hinduism is not the same as being Anti Hindu. I am not Anti Hindu.

    You ask about my motivation – it is simple. When some one makes a point, then I will attempt to explore the underlying phenomenon and then respond, often providing a counter point merely to balance blatant bias/prejudices. For Example, when many people here state that Islam is violent (or has violent elements in it), whilst not denying the truth of this statement, my inclination is to point out that so are other religions. Christianity – via the crusades – has a significant violent history. I therefore point out that Political Hinduism is violent, prone to employing riots to achieve their objectives, and that historically Hindu Kings used to wage war against other Hindu Kings. The point being that some People are Violent and they come from all religions. This is almost always interpreted as me FAVOURING/DENYING Islamic terrorism and or being Anti Hindu. Which is not true, but what may be true is that I am a poor writer so I create impressions that I do not mean to.

    I do not recognise the two examples you cite, but I will address them any way. I do remember having a discussion with you that there was a time in our History when there was a VERY large population of Jains in Karnataka and that the reason why today that population has dwindled considerably, is because of past conflicts, often violent ones between Hindus and Jains. The main point being that Hinduism is not alien to religious motivated violence.

    There are people here who never ever fail to take the opportunity in mentioning that Mohammad married a 9 yr old girl and consummated his marriage soon after. This, even if it is true, is offensive not just to Muslims but I hope to everyone. This and the Saudi Men coming to avail cheap sex in Hyderabad are points which are frequently made in this blog. Once again to balance that, I have used the points of child marriages in Rajasthan and the prevalence of Temple Prostitutes (hence the emphasis on sanctified). This is once again interpreted as me defending Islam and attacking Hinduism. Where as my intention is to provide a balance by saying, look similar things also happen in our own religion. Mahatma Gandhi did marry at 13 and by his own account consummated it almost immediately. Until less than 150 years ago the age of consent in UK was 12 yrs, today it is 16. Employing contemporary values to ancient incidents is fraught with danger.

    I hold no brief from Islam and I have never knowingly promoted any good will towards Islam. However, I have equally never promoted any ill will towards Islam either. I do not make any anti Islam statements because there are far too many other people here doing that.

    One point I have failed to effectively communicate is that Pakistan has employed religious groups in pursuit of its geo-political objectives. This has greatly exaggerated the perception of Jihadi Islam. Some people here fail to distinguish between Pakistani shenanigans masquerading as Jihad, from real Jihad. All be it to a lesser degree, Al Qaida is also a political organisation which employs religious fanatics to do its political bidding for them. Once you remove these groups from the equation, then one is left with an extremely small PURELY religious Jihad.

    I am reluctant to mention SHAN here, only because that subject has been discussed and abused by me many a times. However, the main reason, I so vehemently dislike him is that he describes himself as a rationalist and humanist, when it is so obvious – even to Stevie Wonder – that his natural instincts are that of a racist and a crypto fascist. I cannot imagine how either of us would have changed sufficiently so as to become civil to each other.

    My reason for quitting – this post being an exception – is that I have no new points to make. I feel my contributions detract other people from doing what they wish to do.

    However, I look forward to reading your wisdom infused posts.

    Regards

    Ravi (surprisingly that is my real name).

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Cut the ****…

    “You ask about my motivation”

    Terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Get out you son of Jehadi.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    to whom u are saying my friend

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    To you O son of Osama.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    if i am son of Osama.u are son of a bich.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ullu ke patthe it is ***** not bich..apni ammi ki nasal tak bhool gaya,..khote da puttara..

    shan Reply:

    Well I was in two minds whether I should return. Seeing couple of AH’S patronising and their barely concealed glee at the hapless state of muslims, as a humanist and rationalist in equal measure.
    Couple of occasion I have DEROBED panditji’s intellect for what it is worth.
    Now lets puncture the braggadicio about the Indian pupils acheivement. I hope SIKH ARE CONSIDERED INDIAN.
    This is from the report AN ANATOMY OF ECONOMIC INEQUALITY OF BRITAIN ,Jan 2010
    http//: inequality.gov.co.uk/
    First the inequality in the parental group
    The Labour Force Survey (LFS) also allows us to break the results down by the religious
    affiliation that people express,87 as in Figure 3.10. This shows major differences between
    groups, some of course closely linked to the ethnic differences described above. More than a
    third of Buddhist and Hindu men and of Jewish women have first or higher degrees, and 43
    per cent of Jewish men. Christian and Muslim men have the smallest proportion with degrees,
    at 18 per cent. At the same time, more than 40 per cent of Muslim men and women have
    no qualification above Level 1. In contrast to the somewhat poorer performance at GCSE in
    England of those with no religious affiliation shown in Box 3.3, the fifth of working age adults
    telling the LFS that they have no religious affiliation are slightly better qualified than the
    population as a whole
    Around 80 per cent of White and Indian men are in paid work in
    total; for the other groups, the fraction is between 60 and 70 per cent (59 per cent for those
    with mixed White and Black Caribbean background). Notably, 17 per cent of Bangladeshi
    men are employed part-time and 21 per cent of Pakistani men are self-employed

    The researchers also look at the (capped) points scores of the kind used elsewhere in
    this chapter attained by children from different ethno-religious groups.80 These show
    a similar pattern to the number of passes shown in Figure 3A. For instance, White
    Christian girls and boys obtain more GCSE points than those without religion, and
    Indian HINDUgirls and boys more points than Muslim or SIKH girls and boys

    All men and women are born equals , the opening lines of UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as well as American Constitution, So no , one particular caste (raw sewage) is not congenitally endowed with all the intellect as was paraded over the centuries , as tables have turned this particular caste is at the receiving end , and many street workers caught in calcutta bear that surname of that particular caste.
    Educational acheivement depends on multiple factors , economic status, cultural aspect that values education , social factors , divorce rate alcoholism in the family DIET etc.

    Ravi Reply:

    Whenever some one gets the point of this statiscal rant, please can I urge them to actually explain the point.

    100% of bull-shit is still a cow pat. The smell of any cow pat is dependant up on the richness of the grass fed to the said bull.

    The rationalist and humanist perspective here is thinly disguising anti Muslim propaganda.

    One does not have to read Talcott Parsons in order to conclude that educational achievement is a complex phenomenon to measure and is dependant not only upon an individual’s current circumstances but also historical factors.

    Much more interesting are educational achievements of those children who were adopted from a poor and long deprived back-grounds into wealthy and educationally motivated families. These children, despite coming from various religions and ethnicity have recorded educational achievements which are commensurate with their upbringing.

    Much research was done in this area in the 60s, 70s and 80s. In those days it was called nature versus nurture.

    The conclusion, which still stands, is inconclusive. There are many detailed studies some showing nature being the dominant factor in educational achievement and yet others pointing to nurture as being the more dominant factor.

    It is possible to select any of these studies to underline one’s existing prejudices, just as Shan is doing here.

    shan Reply:

    Unless you are disorientated in time and space which happens in wernicke syndrome due to chronic alcoholism (quite prevalent in your community) , you should note the date of the report is Jan 2010.

    Ravi Reply:

    And that makes it what up to date or correct.

    Even drunk I am more alert than you are in OT.

    ram autar Reply:

    RAVI BHAI,INDIA KA JO KUTCH DEVELOPMENT PRE-MOGHUL ERA MEIN HUA AHI WOH BUDHHDIST KAAL MEIN HUA.YAANI DALITON NE KIYA HAI.

    shan Reply:

    The conclusions are based on data accrued from 2008 (not 60’s 70’s 80’s)
    Figures 2.1(a) and (b) give a more sensitive measure of achievement for 16 year-olds
    in state (‘maintained’) schools in England in 2008, showing the range of total scores in up to
    eight GCSEs (or the equivalent in other qualifications) according to a calculation used by the
    Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF).16

    Is it unreasonable to call you a w a n k e r

    Ravi Reply:

    As is always, always, always the case you miss the point.

    The point being made is and I will pointalise them so that even a congenital moron like you can not miss.

    1. Measurement of educational achievement is very complex and not much can be concluded from a single study, let alone from selective citation from it.

    2. All such studies eventually are considered as a part of the Nature VS Nurture Studies.

    3. Such studies were much in vogue during the 60s, 70s and 80s. That does not mean that they have completely stopped, just that the world has accepted that no firm conclusions could be drawn.

    4. So just because the study you cite is from 2010 does not actually make it any different from several other historical studies, it up dates the data but does not draw any different conclusions. A point an uncut mullah like you will never comprehend.

    5. I suggest you research educational achievements of cross race/religion adopted children because that will give you a better perspective.

    6. Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia, etc are doing fine.

    7. Class and Background are greater indicators of educational achievement than Religion is. Middle Class Muslims in UK do just as well as Middle Class kids from any other religion.

    8. Poor Bengalis have similar educational achievement as poor Orias do.

    However, you may couch your irrational prejudices, they are still obvious for every one to see.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Muslims in Malaysia, Indonesia doing fine..no need of etc because no other Muslim country is doing fine, except Turkey.

    It is just possible that Malaysia and Indomesia are doing like “normal” countries because of the prevailing multicultutralism there . Turkey’s situation may have to do with keeping Mullah’s out of education, government etc.

    South indian Muslims are better educated than North Indian Muslims, may be partly because South Indian Hindus/others are better educated (in terms of numbers) than North Indians. Alla re doing bad in education In the BIMARu states.

    I do think ceratin religions,a s my own, do not inculcate the importance of learning, as much as in other groups. Oil rich countries are not good in education (may be they dont have class). Even in India, many Muslim boys, (at least in Hyderabad and around), want to get into “trade” (of anything) after high school rather than college. “vidya dhan sarv dhanal pradhan” is etched in the Hindu mind. Christians, more rooted in modern science, also emphasize education and career.

    I do believe Shan has a point.

    Ravi Reply:

    So Shoeb, Vocational Education in your way of thinking is No Education.

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    riswan puttar, last week I suggested folks to ignore ramautar. This week I say- ignore SHAN. See his white arse licking above- quoting- “”"”canaletto and rapahael , and gustav klimt and mark rothco,and goya”"”"
    SHAN is cheap, moving to UK and earning a few pounds has burst his head with pride. I see this type of nouveau riche around me all the time- most prove their ‘westernisation’ by running their old culture down.
    To use his words- his mother must have had loose morals- how else to explain a doc who is so abusive and vulgar

    Dr D Mishra, UK Reply:

    anyone remember Budhia Singh and his tragic story. Watch this space, see where he will be 20 years from now- on a victory podium or in a hospital with early onset osteo-arthritis?

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ravi- by “trade” I did not mean trade/vocational school. I meant trade, like small street vendor, hawking stuff in char minar, or small handcart with knickknacks etc

    Vocational Education is Education; as Ashish mentioned, it is all of our responsibility to get these kids into vocational and other educational avenues.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Shoeb,
    “..no need of etc because no other Muslim country is doing fine, except Turkey.”
    We might be ignoring a secular Muslim dominated country, right at our door step (Indian mentality usually ignores the goodness with the near ones). Gopi had earlier mentioned about our own Bangladesh, focusing on education, being fourth largest exporter of clothing to United States. This comes despite of their general poverty, uneducation, flood problem and no generous US aid (unlike Pak). Tomorrow, it could be another Indonesia, Malaysia.

    “South Indian Muslims are better educated than North Indian Muslims”.
    Muslims tend to fair better, when there is no segregation. No demand for separate identities and no segregation could help them progress. In south, language identity has kept religious identity in check (So with Bangla). The society is not divided as Hindu/Muslim. I think, Muslim leaders (in south) need to be appreciated for this one at least. They may be as corrupt as their Hindu counterpart. But they have not tried to divide. BJP tried for a decade to make Bababudangiri as another Ayodhya, but met with a cold response. Hindus did not stop going to Dargah. When BJP held Datta Jayanti Morcha on streets, Muslim traders on the street welcomed it with flowers. How much more could it push?

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    So here it goes.

    1. The study mentioned by Shan is from UK only and for this blog it should be irrelevant. His motive is clearly anti Muslim. You are free to disagree but that is my honest view.

    2. Neither of you have addressed the fact that Middle Class Muslims both in the UK and India fare just as well or badly as their counterparts from other religions.

    3. Therefore, educational achievement is more influence by class than it is done by religion.

    4. As Ram Autar has mentioned many a times that as far as Crafts are concerned, in India the picture is dominated by Muslim craftsmen of EXCEPTION skills and dexterity. This should not be underrated.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    agree with Vinay’s analysis.

    And Ravi, I have to disagree – Muslims, generally, all across the world, do have an issue with education. This is partly relected in the paucity of literary and other works published in terms of their numbers (Mirza wrote about this quite extensively).

    There are excellent handicrafts and creations requiring dexterity/handiwork produced by Muslims – no doubt. They are passed from generation to generation, akin to a caste system (in good old days a barbers son becomes a barber).

    There are always outliers and anomalies. But, in my opinion, it is delusional to claim there is no issue with education among Muslims.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    In that case our opinions remain un-reconciled.

    I continue to believe that the main reason for under achievement in the field of education among Muslims is a class and poverty issue rather than a RELGION issue.

    After all, Rizwan, Zia, Shah Rukh Khan, etc – just to quote a few people known to you are, by any standard, very educated people.

    Middle classes of Pakistan (a Nuclear Power), and Bangaldesh are just as keen on education as any other middle classes.

    Poor Hindus are also education averse as poor Muslims are, though the relative proportions may well be different.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    A couple of more points.

    1. Who is Mirza that you mention in your post.

    2. How does what Vinay has said, contradict what I am saying.

    Vinay Reply:

    Vocational training will yield livelihood. But if a community has to elevate its social status, it needs to give more importance to formal education as well. A garage mechanic, a dhobi will not be paid the same attention by the society, say as a tutor. (Earlier, someone had posted a nice story of a village boy, who became an English tutor). In principle, society should treat everyone same. But this society is not perfect. The Muslim community may not be able to change society, but adopting themselves to the society is in their hand. That is what other communities have done.

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    That is perfectaly agreeable.

    However, what is the point you wish to make.

    Not all Muslims are crafts men, as I have contended and continue to do so, that Middle Class Muslims in India are very supportive of education and in that respect do not behave any differently to other middles Classes in india.

    As Muslims experience upward mobility, as many of them are doing so, then the proportion would also increase.

    Religion is not the ONLY reason for educational under achievement, it not even the main reason. Economic backwardness is.

    Do you not agree with this point.

    Vinay Reply:

    Religion does not play much role for a privileged person. In fact, religion may not even be part of his identity, like Azim Premzi. Non privileged people need a reason, a movement to rise out of their condition. Other communities have found a way out. But Muslim community has not. To give an example, in mid 70s a Dalit minister called the whole Kannada literature as boosa (cattle fodder), which does not consider aspiration of have nots. On one side he received retaliation from the (then) existing literary world, on the other side he paved the way for Dalit movement and Dalit literature, where have nots appeared on scene and wrote about the suppressed life of Dalits. This never happened with Muslim community. Those who engaged in literature were well to do Muslims who had not experienced oppression, so could not write anything about that life. This awareness have to come to the community (poor Muslim) from within. Others, including elite Muslims cannot provide it, they are not able to identify themselves with this class.

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Absolutely agree.

    However, I hope you are not suggesting, and if you are then you are not being very clear, that lack of this “awareness” particularly in the Muslim community is some how directly related to Islam.

    If you are, then we are not on the same page.

    Among Sikhs, the Ramgaria community used to be very much Manual Skills, focused. As a result very many of them migrated to east Africa to use those precious skills. These days one is able to find Ramgaria Doctors, Lawyers, Surgeons and academics.

    I am hope full that as you suggest, economic prosperity among Muslims in India will increase their propensity to adopt education.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ravi The Maulvis whom this class (backward muslim) trusts could have come out with a better idea of how to come up in society (they could be little better educated than these people, who look up to them for support. I am not talking about the elite Muslim class, who care a damn about them). But they keep giving them a religion dosage, which does not support them to confront society and come up, instead make them give up and get secluded. (This does not happen with Dalits). Whenever there is an attempt to differentiate between upper and lower class muslims (for sharing government benefits), they think it as a threat to their religion. They don’t seem to realise, what they are loosing. (Again this does not happen with Dalits. Their major fight is with their upper classes). So in a way, religion do contribute to Muslim’s backwardness and isolation.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Similar forces are at work on terrorism/aversion of education etc.. We are closing our eyes if we say Islam religion does not have anything to do with terrorism (although at an ultimate level it is true, but not at a pragmatic ground floor level) and does not have anything to do with the issue of male and female education.

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay and Shoeb

    I now fully understand your perspective.

    I do not doubt that some Mullahs do do that, however, where I differ is, I think most Indian Muslims ignore such rubbish and get on with their lives.

    As for Education and academic achievement, I am afraid I do disagree with you and place poverty way above religion as the major contributing factor.

    I enjoyed this discussion, sorry we did not achieve consensus but we stayed civil.

    I conclude.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi-

    You seem to go out of your way to negate Islamic religion does not have an (negative) impact on education, and if everything else is equal there is no difference among various groups.

    I can tell you that if Kerala excludes Malappuram district from alll “social” metrics, Kerala will rank with many western nations on most of the metrics – like infant mortality, womens education, mens education, number of children/family etc etc. However, if malappuram is included, the statistics go down significantly (one can check the last census results) . Malappuram is a 80% Muslim district, the first “muslim district” carved out in Independent India (not by congress, but by Marxists; but they thought theyw ill gbet the Msuilim votes; they never did)

    However, there are many districts where Muslims are a large minority – 30/40%. Muslims do significantly better in those districts, like Kannur and Kozhikode and Kasaragode, than the “Muslims only” (sort of) Malappuram.

    So, in those districts, it may be that people see their neighbours (in Kerala ones next door neighbour will eb a muslim or a Christian, there are no sepaarte communities except in a very few neighbourhoods) children pushing to get rank and admission to colleges, and that may be working as a counterweight to what Mullahs may be sermoning in mosques. Unfortunately, in Malappuram, they may be stuck with what Mullah is saying and there may not be a neighbourly example.

    It also shows the negative impact of creating and granting Muslims wish like sepaarte district or sepaarte panchayath… (We have seen what a separate nationhood did to them!)

    Vinay Reply:

    I noticed,”" Muslims fare well has become fair well and Premji was spelt wrongly. Never mind,

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-

    “If you take out pakistani jehadis and Al Queda jehadis then the stuff is minimal’….You are implicitly justifying or denying the Islamic terrorism Why do you have to support the terrorists/ Is it minimal if one guy explodes and kills 100? Are Hindus killing people all over the world? Are Hindus and Christians and Budhists exploding in other countries on perceived problems?

    And why do you have to bring political hindu riots or violence in otehr religions as a “justification ” or counter argument.? Why cannot you just say there are a few (of course it is a few nummber) who are campaigning and conducting worldwide jehad.

    Your mode is like Fox news “fair and balanced” but neither..

    Vinay’s point (and I also indicated) was about the statement you made about “deficiencies in Indian culture” or something like that. (again when the subject was about some Muslim stuff—it was totally uncalled for; and it reinforces in many peoples mind that you a re not what you say you are). Ones writing is ones own mirror.

    Islamic terrorism is very much present today all over the world (again, only few Muslims engage in this). Muslim kings destroyed temples, converted people etc until recently. What is the purpose of indicating Hindu kings invaded Hindu kings, or Barahmins killed (??0 Jains eons ago as a counterargument, as if one can “wash off” by counterarguments. Muslim terrorism is here and today; unlike the Hindu king stuff- . Christianity’s crusade was similarly hundreds of years ago. And you capitalized “VERY” large number of Jains dwindled bcecause of violence of Hindus in this mea culpa. I have never seen you indicating what happened to “VERY” large number of Hindus in Pakistan, which is a very recent history than who knows what happened to Jains two thousand years ago – the fact today is that Jains and hindus intermarry a sif there is no separation.

    People, rightfully, indicate that Quran contains violent parts, and some people, because of the early religious instruction, madrasa influence et,c take many of the verses literally and commit violent acts. You immediately come out, not only denying there are references to “kauffers and infidels and Muslims land etc…, but then pointing to Ramayana or Manusmrithi or Gita contains violence and lust because rama went to forest to satisfy the lust of Dasratha….,as if the Hindus follow all these books like Muslims follow Quran. You may not find a copy of Manusmrithi even in libraries for Pete sake.

    Nobody in these blogs, including Shan, has ever unjustifiably criticized Muslims. Many have pointed to the reasons for backwardness, need for sepaarting personal religion from public discourse etc.. Your contribution during those discussions are what Wendy said about Hinduism..Who cares, it is not at all relevant to Muslim backwardness or why Muslims do this vs that. (Rama being promiscuous or Sita being treated badly is not the acuse of why muslims do not get educated)

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    benoy again the same stupidity same propaganda.i am sure u are paid agent of international zoinism.being brhmnst u can sell this country for ur personal benefits.
    all ur statements are bundle of lies and propaganda.take awnsers ,

    You are implicitly justifying or denying the Islamic terrorism Why do you have to support the terrorists/ Is it minimal if one guy explodes and kills 100? Are Hindus killing people all over the world

    ravi is right islamic terrorism is muslim response to american invasion of their countries.where there is no invasion ,things are calm..raymond devis has accepted that he was friend of talibans and organizing bomb blasts in thay area.head of taliban in waziristan is
    an ex-american citizen.like the trainer of ossama ,he is their agent.

    all bombs and advanced devices are supplied to them by americans.they dont have any factories to make these deadly devices.

    minimal if one guy explodes and kills 100?

    it varies from 4to 30.what about drone attacks.killing mostly civilian on daily basis.

    planning and deadly bombs comes from americans hungry unemployed youths are paid.kasab wa never called terrorist in western media.they always called him gunmen as it is truth.inside hotels brhmnst were playing their game of hurting humanity.cutting the babies into piecews and raping and killing of ladies.

    Muslim kings destroyed temples, converted people etc until recently

    this is lie and rubbish.even today more than 2000 mosques are under sikh and hindu control.

    vedics chased away and mascred buhdhdists and physically liquidate jainese.mascare of 1947 was organized rss.master tara singh was foolishly supported.they could live in lahore without any problem.

    now coming to ur holy books,

    vedas manusmiriti and arthshastra are the sole property of brhmns.i never found these in any of non brhmn house.

    geeta was witten and made a part of ramayana lately.geeta is written in modern sanskrit not classical.like old part of ramanaya.
    it has blue god not white.WHITE IS ONLY DIVINE.all other colours are inferior and condemned.rakhas is black.
    lord krishna is shown in very bad light.he orders arjun to kill all his cousins and uncles on the battlefield.he was a butter thief.instead of many negotiation brutely kills opponents on battlefield.had 1603 wives,concubines and illegetimate relationship with neighbours wife called radha.used to had wooden pns to satisfy gopi if he was not in mood.some part is also stolen from the story of moses (like his birth).used to run away with gopis clothes,will not return till she shows herself as naked.
    there is no mention of any construction work for benefit of local population by him.women used to be kidnapped with the help of brhmns.90%of women kidnapped were married.if his husband will go to get his wive released.brhmns will tell the poor man that if u will fight with bhagwan,satoon janmon mein aag mein jalo ge ,agar kushi kushi patni ko dedoge ,to vaikunth ke maze lootoge.this bullshit ghandhi used to keep under pillow all the time.this was a conspiracy to make hindu religion,which never existed on indian soil.caste were also made in geeta.since then atrocities on women increased to maximum.women was declared an body without sole,between shudra and chandals whose killing is not sin.this scripture was prepared to given to non hindu backwards.

    regarding rama,if uread coca cola from back side ,this is arabic word which means la mohd la islam.means there will be no mohammed no islam.this is 300 yrs ago.coca cola is zoinist corporation .they had plan to occupy middle east.process which is going on.ram movement is part of this game.movemnt was planned in israel.they have plan to destroy masjid aqsa our third holy shrine.babri masjid was demolished in most unindian way and insulting way by their satanic cousins in india ,to test the mulim reaction.slogan was also zoinist.ramlallah
    hum ainge mandir wheen banaein ge.ramallah is city of palestine near muslim mosue.

    when dashrat becomes sick his wives including kaushalya is ordered by brhmn astrologers to sleep with horse with his pns in ur hand.dashrat was impotent he was son of brhmns.queen were not ready and not stimulating so first they were stimulated by horses,when ready brhmns fkd them and rama was born.

    as king ram did nothing to develop his raea.
    as father he saw his ons only at the age of 16.
    as husband he sent his wife to jungle,while she was pregnant.
    as judge he burnt alive shambhook (a dalit)when he was found reading holy scripture.
    as human being he murdered bali,the brother of hanuman.to take help of hanuman to go to
    lanka,which was pleasure trip.as he did not see sita for 21/2 years.hanuman,a known womanizer was sent to see him.she was with him and pregnant when returned.rama told her that u can go to any of the twelve dirction as i came to save my respect not u.

    in ayodhya before 16th century when tulsidaas wrote his version of ramayna nobody knew him.

    regarding education among muslims u are right but ask goverment to do something,

    75% of indigenous Indians are kept poor, illiterate, unthinking and daily brainwashed to become “better Hindu” (meaning slaves).

    aprart from india literacy levet in most of muslim country is 95%plus.even bangladesh will surpass india soon.

    .

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    So much of anti-hindu ranting and this punk says don’t badmouth Islam.

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    So much of anti-hindu ranting and this punk says don’t badmouth Islam.
    anything wrong challenge.it is reply to a foolish man.

    Rajeev Reply:

    You are nothing but a troll that too a fundoo muslim at that…You are worst of humanity. Keep bombing Shias, Sufis, Barelvis, Ahmediya you son of pig.

  • Rizwan

    @ravi- sorry pal, I said you are too anti hindu, and you were hurt. now others hv taken up this chant, cant believe it- my FIRST ORIGINAL CONTRIBUTION HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
    But that is Rizzy boy for u, I take no prisoners. Say it as it is, this is 21st century dude, dont bring devdaasi shit in here.

    @others- saw what paaji wrote yesterday, got hidden above-
    xxxxxxxxx spot on abt SHAN. Dr Misra had just started an interesting thread- syed had said that hindus drag down the malaysian IQ , or something like that and mishraji very rightly showed that Indians PULL UP RESULTS IN THE WEST. Dammit puttar, I have lived in england for 30 years, this is fact here. My kids went to a private school in middlesex, and the white headmaster said quite openly that he welcomed Indian kids.

    so here i am, looking forwaard to syed and mishraji and gopi trade pearls, and this punk SHAN turns up, starts abuse, kills off debate, and struts around in that vulgar way of hisxxxxxx
    jeepers SHAN u shud be on big boss with veena malik and that bindra bird, more yr style

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rizwan,
    not so fast with the “Devadasi shit” in the 21st century..
    The practice, a thinly disguised prostitution with religious (though thankfully no legal one- having been outlawed in 1988), still is prevalent in many parts of India.
    A more nuanced view, which Vinay made above partially is that
    this is also a practice that kept alive dance traditions like Odissi and Bharatnatyam. And, perhaps the low patronage of classical dance forms in the modern times have pushed these women into prostitution.
    Devadasis of yore did not practice monogamy. But, no social stigma attached to them and their children faced no problem.
    By the way, multiple marriages among Hindus (especially high caste brahmins) was very common even hundred years back- I was told by my grandmother that my own great great grandfather used to be constantly on the road, traveling from one wife’s home to another and collecting money for the once a year visit – sordid, isn’t it? This was a practice common among all “Kulin Brahmins” of Bengal.
    I daresay, we have moved on.
    Do also understand that most major societal reforms of Hindus happened during the British rule. If only Muslims managed to produce a few social reformers who would have teamed up with the Brits (like Rammohan Roy, Vidyasagar did)- we would not have to deal with the trouble of social reform today in the Muslim community.
    It is revealing that even Hindus have not made too many serious social reforms in independent India. Sometimes, you wish the government just has the balls to push through what is required to be done and to hell with the consequences.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ashish,
    Have you ever met a devadasi myself? I have been to almost all the states in India but I never met a single devadasi.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    i met lata mangeshkar is devdaasi.

    Rajeev Reply:

    You mean your mother is devadasi…even Noor Jahan was devadasi..

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    No, I have not.
    a) I am not very fond of dance as a classical art form. I am more into music- vocal/ instrumental, that too not Carnatic.
    b) I have not visited a single South Indian temple except the ruins of Mahabalipuram.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ashish,
    Believe me Devadasi is extinct now because our hindu bashing media would have done tons of stories on this.
    This is just propaganda.

    I am more into Kishore Kumar or Sufi kind of music.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    nope; definitely not extinct.
    Do some google search; Wikipedia has quite a lot of reference.
    Also see this:
    http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/apr/soc-devadasi.htm
    The article does suggest social activism backed by law is being successful in slowly breaking down this custom.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I don’t believe in this..because none of my friends from south have ever seen any devadasi…I am a north India who has more than 95% friends who are from 4 south Indian states. Everyone says it is not true and many of them come from villages.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    BENOY, THIS IS ESP FOR YOU,
    but others also pl read my prev post-
    @vinay, raj, rajeev and benoy- I notice all of you are getting blood pressure because of ramautar. Can I say something simple- IGNORE HIM
    U WRITE 1 ANTI ISLAMIC SENTENCE, the lil feller writes 1000 anti hindu sentences.
    Try it, just ignore whatever he writes, watch your bp and sugar, hehe

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    i hope they will agree to ur advise discuss national issue which india facing.muslim terroreism and historical lie better avoid.some particular cases of muslim terrorism can be discussed.our security agencies are quite capable of hanling these problems.muslim terrorist should be dealt at par with other terrorists.in such huge country all type people are available.good bad and ugly.there will be muslimterrorists i dont know.but govermnent will handle with them.very soon indian situation will be like middle east because of unemployment.hegde is wicked and vile
    he is attaching thevoilence to religion while base of voilence is socio-economic.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Gopi,

    Continuing with the thread, we had left earlier.

    Creamy layer: I have to repeat Ashish’s answer to Rizwan. Independent India has not been bold enough to make any unpleasant reforms aimed at right direction. When the princely states of India (majorly South) introduced reservation in early 1900s, there was opposition. Still they went ahead. After hundred years, there is a need to modify the bill to take creamy layer out. But no one is gutsy.

    Regarding Shankara :
    Logically I would find it difficult to believe (may not be impossible) that Shankara covered this distance (whole of India twice by walking, when there was not much direction available), at such an young age. (I sat and calculated the distance. Kaladi->Sringeri=514 km, Sringeri->Puri=1,730 km, Puri-> Dwaraka = 2300 km, Dwaraka->Badri=1849 km, Badri -> Srinagar = 1100 km, Srinagar -> Kaladi = 3500 km)
    All the Matts being built by the same person, could be a faith. (Not that, I have any problem with it). This weblink http://en.articlesgratuits.com/sri-sankaracharya-understanding-the-great-saint-through-his-works-id3190.php says, what Shankara actually preached was mainly Buddism in the form of Vedism. He might not have built any Mutts as it was not characteristic of Vedic culture. The Mutts at Badrinath, Puri, Dwaraka may actually have been Buddist monasteries which eventually transformed to Advaitic Saiva Mutts which were later attributed to Shankara during late medieval ages. (Medieval literature have referred to Buddha as one of the incarnations of lord Vishnu. The deity of Vishnu in Badari is in Padmasana posture, unlike the usual relaxing posture). If Mandan Mishra got converted from Budhism to Advaita with his followers, will that mean todays Mishras were earlier Buddhists? Difficult to seek the truth between the tirade of anti-Brahminism (Brahmins destroyed everyone else) and faithful devotees (Shankara was reincornation of Shiva, born 2500 years ago).

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay-

    Shankara is around AD 600. (the BC birth theory has been shot down; it is more an “astrology clock done by some orthodox Hindus)
    Mandam Mishra was not Budhist; a believer of whatever was “Hinduism”, but not accepting the advaita philosophy.

    You may be right that the structures may ahve been there. However, establishing these as seats of learning focused on advaita philosophy must have been done by Him. Also, bringing a Malayali priest a sthe ehad priest for Badrinath — the two Namboodiri families from payanur in kerala have been performing the Pooja duties there for ever. they are called “rawals”. The local king theer has to invite the priest from these families, each taking turn. Shankara must have thought that the northernmost part of his border needs somebody from the southernmost part. that may have been his way of defining and integrating the geographic and people mass

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Namboodari people from Kerala is a valid point. If the Mutts were actually converted later in the medieval ages, why do they have to invite people from Kerala as priest? There is certainly some connection. I stand corrected in the case of Mandan Mishra (Shankara is not just supposed to have argued with Buddhists, but with other schools of thought among “Hindus” too).

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay-

    I do not think the mutts were “converted” in the medieval ages. Shankara in his life time established the four mutts (may be in an existing structure, and may be these were onbviously expanded upon later). Each mutt focused on one aspect of philosophy.

    Regarding the namboodiri priests – it is not any namboodiri, it is only from two families in Payanur. They have been doing this, I guess, for 25 plus generations. The king of Garwahl (under whose jurisdiction Badrinath was) invites the “rawal” (as the priest is called) after each turn. It is believed that Shankara started this as a part of the establishment of his northern mutt, jyothir mutt. My gut is that in Shankara’s mind he knew the country has different beliefs and languages, and bringing one from the southmost to northmost may be one way he thought people could go after common purpose.

    There may be another thing also, however, I wonder whether Shankara knew this at that time. Namboodiris are supposed to be deeper in all vedas including Atharva (tantric) than any other brahmins in other parts, and he must have wanted one of them in this important of important mutts.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    yes mohan pyaare, once again I rpt- ignore his comments-
    @vinay, raj, rajeev and benoy- I notice all of you are getting blood pressure because of ramautar. Can I say something simple- IGNORE HIM
    U WRITE 1 ANTI ISLAMIC SENTENCE, the lil feller writes 1000 anti hindu sentences.
    Try it, just ignore whatever he writes, watch your bp and sugar, hehe
    once again I rpt- ignore his comments

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    balwinder better to advise them not to write bullshit on islam and muslims.then u will not have my comment.we have bad people police is handling them like sikhs.when i was reading about ur gurus ,i had tears in my eyes.better to project better part of all religions and unite.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Don’t provoke others to write Bullshit or truth about Islam. Stick with your cave life.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    muslims are providing jobs to 20million indians which is feeding half india.

    Rajeev Reply:

    No, it is not muslims but western technology that is extracting oil in mid-east is providing jobs. You people can at best erect a tent in desert…for you guys oil was just some Keechad…

    Rajeev Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I have always ignored these two trolls. This Ram Autar talks about how buddhism was suppressed by Hindus but forgets that most of the muslims in his country pakistan were Buddhists who were converted to Islam by force. Then after 2001, brothers of Mo-Autar blasted Bamiyan Buddhas..These people live in lies, speak lies and dream lies. No wonder their a$$es are bombed by civillized world.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    u are an idot afghanistan was most never ruled by muslims.even missionaries have not gone there.they converted after listening about islam like in iraq.some fools like sanghis of india demolished bamiyan.others reinstated this.when u will reinstate babri mosque our national heritage.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    “some fools like sanghis of india demolished bamiyan.”

    Now he is calling his father Osama Sanghi…

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    balwinder jee pagal aa gaya.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Teri maa mujhe pyar se pagal kahati heh ;)

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    Teri maa mujhe pyar se pagal kahati heh

    pagla aur pagla gaya.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Apne abba ko pagal kehta hai…Namaqool.. Tujhe dojakh bhi naseeb nahi hoga..

    ram autar Reply:

    lekin galee ke kuttey tujhe pagal samajh ke kat lete hain.

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    Thank you Ashish and Shoeb, for bringing the boat back to its course, as we say in sailing. This is what I said earlier- bits of it-
    ”’….I am going to say that might shock people- MUSLIMS NEED RESERVATION. Or let me improve that – some poor muslims need reservation. Let me improve that further, very poor people of all faiths, castes and regions need reservation.
    It is really sad that this self evident truth- so basic really – has not been appreciated or implemented by the people of India or the govt. But – and there is A VERY IMP BUT- it should never be more than 20%, otherwise meritocracy dies.
    What we have instead is a fat creamy layer, now in the third generation, which grabs reservation. My former SC classmate in med school, his father was IAS, his son in 2011 is also studying medicine on a reserved seat.
    So, education policy in India needs a Jasmine revolution- down with ghettoisation in education, whether it is Islamicor SC/ST- AND PLEASE DO RESERVE 20% SEATS FOR ALL POOR, for one generation only, ie, after they have reached somewhere, then remove their crutches.

    Dr Mishra for President, I say….

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    Zia,
    The guys in this forum is a deflated balloon ..they ran out of all the subjects..some are doubting how Sankaran (Adi) could walk all these distance…a click away from wikipidea the answer is there in front of everyone..
    High time for your next one.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    haha, Mohan, nice one. Lets hope it will be on the Godhra judgement last month.
    I was just reheating old soup to get some disc going. Here goes- the guy who topped IAS last yr was a kashmiri muslim. bravo
    Premji donates 1 or 2 billion dollars for educating the indian poor. bravo to the power of 100.
    Poor village girls in UP I think to get bicycles for going to school…
    there is hope yet, aur umeed par duniya kaayam hai.
    Dr Mishra, sunny day in Uk, hence sunny optimism inside. jai hind

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    india has great future thsi time also social and educational revolution will start from the banks of ganga.love is replacing the hate .common man wants to increase the cake.hate mongners are on run. n.fastest growing economy of india taking common indians with them like tsunsmi of japan.

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    up is the fastest growing economy of india taking common indians with them like tsunsmi of japan.effect of up economy is reverse.rajev isee mein doob ke mar jaega.balwinder jee pe fine hona chaheye.kya puttar banaya hai.bhagwan ne banaya hai ,kutch kar bhee nahin sakta hoon.kisi contractor ne bayahotha ise tood ke phir banwata.kah deta ki isko to baber ne koi mandir tood ke banatha.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    asish, which one did your reporter finally choose? also, i was not aware that 5 prayer breaks were guaranteed in the Indian constitution

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    reportee, means somebody who reports to ashish , ie, Ashish is the boss under whom “prejudice victim” muslim guy works. This is different from news reporters that work for newspapers.
    Another “cow belt” example of education , as well as one can’t help the barely suppressed glee in caricaturing the Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This in itself is a barely disguised glee at what is a completely understandable error. In the UK where Dr Mishra has worked for over 30 yrs, the word “reportee” is not commonly used.

    This is nothing what so ever to do with “Cow-belt”, nothing more than an honest error. Just as you and other Bengalis add superfluous R at the end of commonly used Hindi words. An example is when YOU call me KUTTAR, meaning a Kutta (a dog).

    Din dunyaR malik khuda, tumare dil ki doys hoi na

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    when i like to address you i use the word KUTTA not Kuttar , Kuttar is kutta’s.in english.

    Ravi Reply:

    Would you like me to dig out the evidence

    shan Reply:

    Please carry coal to newcastle

    Ravi Reply:

    Why are you afraid that you may be proven wrong, as you very often are.

    Why should I carry coal to Newcastle when I can bring Hops to Kent.

    ram autar Reply:

    congenitally endowed with all the intellect as was paraded over the centuries

    we u use our education to cheat others.in one years tell me one invention came from india.we dont allow others to study(making education extremely expensive and destroying primary education.

    gadit ko phalit mein badal diya eska kam janamkundali nikalne ke allwa kutch nahin.kamasutra and janam kundali are our 2 gifts.

    shan Reply:

    Ram , my mate, it is not one but hundred inventions are taking place in India as we write,.
    All the embedded software and other high end software like Tata Elixi , or SAP which has a “project bangalore”. Also a lot of CUTTING EDGE work is being in PHARMA.
    But it is true Indian companies are HOPELESS in INVENTING ANY PRODUCT.This is because of the Indian Culture , which promotes lick my boot culture , so new idea is promoted , and lick and prosper is the only route allowed , merit based prosper has no takers.

    By the way Ram Autar are you also an Insomniac, what are you doing this time of night if you are in UP , unless you are the internet wing of ISI monitoring indian websites.

    ram autar Reply:

    But it is true Indian companies are HOPELESS in INVENTING ANY PRODUCT.This is because of the Indian Culture , which promotes lick my boot culture

    so u agree with me.
    i hope uremember my prediction about raymond devis.nang badw ki parmeswar.
    i am talking of past more than today.I THINK SAP IS GERMAN INVENTION BY 5 EX-EMPLOY OF IBM.

    ram autar Reply:

    .in one years tell me

    IN ONE THOUSADS YEARS TELL ME

    Ravi Reply:

    C O A L S & H O P S.

    SO here is the evidence of SHAN using the word “kuttar”.

    shan says:
    November 29, 2010 at 4:39 am
    @Zia, again you show your true colour, a HYPOCRITE to the bone.HOW ABOUT REPEALING ARTICLE 360 IN KASHMIR, so that folks like me pork and beef eating holding indian passport would like to settle down in kashmir, in the process may meet a kashmir ki kali. It is also known as looking in the mirror.
    How about kashmir allowing a little multi culturalism. how about saudi allowing a hindu mandir built there to satisfy the religious needs of the millions of SLAVE LABOUR from kerala.
    As for the extreeme benelovolence shown by uk govt , it makes me feel so small having come from a country where exists likes of Thackeray et al.This for that twerp ravi kuttar

    shan Reply:

    The word was Kuttar is used to convey the phonetic equivalent CUTTAR meaning ORTHODOX of a vicious nature., but you may have given it a proper and rightful meaning.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pull the other one, it has short and curlys on it.

    We all know what you meant, phoneic equivalent my foot.

    shan Reply:

    At least I can pull , you cannot for yours is NANGA

    Ravi Reply:

    I will let that one go.

    For no other reason other than, it expose you much more than it does me.

    shan Reply:

    Yours is already exposed surgically at age 9 ;)

    Ravi Reply:

    Mine was just a circumcision, yours was a lobotomy.

    shan Reply:

    Just to educate you ,Lobotomy, huge chunks of brain can be excised without any detrimental effect , brain has massive redundancy. After head injury, when there is brain swelling , surgeons as a desperate measure do excise brain to prevent compression leading to conal herniation. However there are areas of brain like pre frontal cortex which is paramount in generating emotion and thought WHICH IN YOUR CASE HAS BEEN EATEN UP BY TREPONEMA PALLIDUM

    Ravi Reply:

    Just to complete your education.

    The amount of Brain Matter excised from your Brian is more than that and therefore the deterimental effect is for all to see.

    The most obvious evidence is your inability to learn, even when your peers here have offered kind advise.

    The Brain material excised from your Brain was eaten by your mother and that is why she is suffering from vCJD.

    Keep them coming Shan, I am up for it.

  • Rizwan

    just back from a weekend in Sariska, di not see any tigers but did see some wild boars. So it is apprpriate that I return to this blog and see a pig running around again -SHAN
    Same old dirty name calling, vulgar boasting and hijacking any issue to Islamophobic bashing. Doc mishra asks a simple question abt prayer breaks in India and SHAN

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    contd- and SHAN instantly accuses him of Islamic bashing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Then he launches vicious personal attacks on Ravi- using the most animal like language around circumcision in muslims- tera susu nanga hai etc. Uses language like w a n k e r.

    My disgust with SHAN is complete. He is definitely not a doctor, no doctor has such a vulgar mind thought and language. 100% a cleaner or taxi driver from UK.
    To use his own language- DR SHAN – U R AN ISLAMOPHOBIC BAR STEWARD

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Rizwan , the first in his family for four generation who did not go to madrasah and so overwhelmed by graduating from DU which has probably most of the prof from calcutta. Now look son dont try to cross with me , you are kir makor , so far my intellect is concerned. One laptop and you are flabbergasted , my world is world of canaletto and rapahael , and gustav klimt and mark rothco,and goya(that is name of a painter ,not a place in Bihar) the names that are million miles away from the ghettos of old delhi where you live. You run a small factory so does sadhu , that’s fine .But we are not into BEWSA OR DHANDHA , it’s rather rarified and better you visit some Islamic websites which will be morbefitting your taste and STANDARD.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This is so outrageous, it is pure gem from a man is totally delusional.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    Here is another “goya” for you. I think you missed this one.

    Tum mere paas hote ho goya
    Jab koi doosra nahi hota

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sahn

    I am so sorry throwing Urdu/Hindi verse at you, so soon after establishing that your grasp of Hindid is quite poor, so here is a Bengali translation for you.

    Tumar mere paasar hotar ho goyaar

    Jabar koi doosrar nahi hotaar

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    Try singing it to the tune crafted by the Bengali Nobelaar Laureateaar’s tune:

    Amaar Shonaar Banglaar Deshar.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rizwan,
    The guy who you are supporting i.e. Ravi has been a known sympathiser of Osama, has favored terrorism against India.
    You are supporting this terrorist just because he badmouths hindus…Think over your support to this terrorist.
    I had enough of this guy..

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    Zia,
    I can see that smirk on your face..squabbling of full blown adults ..how long you plan to enjoy this..give us a break…write about the financial consequences of OBL living inside a cave ..

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    A good article on Vastanvi and what he wnts to do (and Mullahs whor against him and for him)… Interesting to n ote students are with him! This is the religious issue standing in the way as many have written and ghow one is trying to bridge

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/asia/21cleric.html

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde , as much commendable the action og Vastanvi is , I think the “rest” of the population has no reason to be SMUG. I was watching NDTV , “we the people” , some statistics flashed on the screen. 90% of Indians work in Informal sector. 267 million have no access to TOILET. There was another spine chilling statistics , i can’t recall.
    As you are aware INDIA HAS OCCUPIED THE RATHER UNENVIOUS POSITION OF NO1 ARMS IMPORTER IN THE WORLD. one would have thought saudi would have that crown.
    As they say “Charity begins at home”

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    post script, oh yes another thing I saw in NDTV in Mishraji’s place (but applies to rest of India).
    This is a school in rural bihar, if you saw the children , their hair are auburn , this is not greek blood , THIS IS PROTEIN CALORIE MALNUTRITION. The teachers are hardly seen, the two toilets are locked only for the use of teachers.
    JAI HO

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    Thank you Benoy Hegde, brilliant article quoted by you. Exactly, what I had been banging on here for months. I quote the best lines from the article-

    ‘ … Abusaleh Shariff, an economist and co-author of a major 2006 government report on Muslims in India, said resources, attention and energy should be focused on government schools where a majority of Muslim students attend class with Hindus and others.

    “We don’t want ghettoism in education,” he argued. “We want secular education.” ….’

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I agree.

    However the question is, do u fear that “ghettoism” in India is a real possibility. Particularly, in Government Schools.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    More Statistics.

    In the city of Birmingham between the years of 1998 and 2003 this is the progress made by various ethnic minorities in educational achievements.

    The measurement used here is achieving grade A to C in 5 GCSE exams which students take at the age of 16. Education until the age of 16 is compulsory which is effectively monitored.

    Bangladesh Boys went up from 28% in 1998 to 43% in 2003 an improvement of +15%
    Bangladesh Girls went up from 36% in 1998 to 58% in 2003 an improvement of +22%

    Pakistan Boys went up from 21% in 1998 to 37% in 2003 an improvement of +16%
    Pakistan Girls went up from 31% in 1998 to 50% in 2003 an improvement of +19%

    Indian Boys went up from 40% in 1998 to 67% in 2003 an improvement of +27%
    Indian Girls went up from 50% in 1998 to 73% in 2003 an improvement of +23%

    All Boys went up from 30% in 1998 to 44% in 2003 an improvement of +14%
    All Girls went up from 42% in 1998 to 54% in 2003 an improvement of +12%

    Some observations:

    The rate of improvement of all three subcontinent communities is above average.

    Asian girls are improving faster than Asian boys.

    It is not surprising that Indian boys and girls are doing better than Bangladesh and Pakistani boys and girls.

    What is surprising that 60% of Indian boys and 50% of Indian girls failed to achieve 5 good GCSEs.

    The rest of the study can be found here.

    http://fatih.academia.edu/TahirAbbas/Papers/259068/Muslims_In_Birmingham_UK

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    As usual “sting in the tail” foraged from the pasture (p://fatih.academia.edu/TahirAbbas/Papers/259068/Muslims_In_Birmingham_UK) which is the grazing place of a particular variety of Bos taurus Bovidae

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    At least I quoted the research and provide a link.

    Which you the labotomisedar KUTTAR (Phoneticar equivalentar), evar didar.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra, UK

    Ravi,

    Govt schools will not result in ghettoism, but going to madarsas will.

    If India needs to become a sports savvy nation, then it needs to learn from someone like the Aussies, who for a population of 22 million, can churn out champs. India looks at its success in cricket, played by just 8 countries seriously, and thinks it does well. Not enough I say.

    Even here in UK, my kids went to very basic weekly swimming lessons to the local council pool from the age of 4!! May sound very basic, but the teachers, many of them teenagers or young adults, had simple pamphlets which spelt out what was expected at what age. Five percent, who stood out, sadly not my kids, got fasttracked to intensive coaching. There was a gifted 10 year old who was even spoken of as a national hopeful!!

    What I am describing here is a sporting CULTURE.

    Similarly, if a muslim family from a poor or working class background in India or abroad, want their child to excel, then making sure that their child mingles with hindus and sikhs is generally beneficial. For example, how much to push your child; how to stretch them more than the school ever does; how to realise that dreaming of life beyond the jhuggi colony or LIG flats is an option etc.- the hindu/ sikhs are better at this. As someone on this blog said, hindu children connect with their rich heritage, and zoom ahead.

    What I am describing here is a educational CULTURE, something which even a white working class white boy from Dagenham does not know, which is why, bizarrely, the working class white boys from deprived parts of UK are now slowly sliding into an educational underclass.

    Sorry, very long answer to a short question. I would like to finish on a less boring note- I worry for the Indian team’s prospects in the current world cup. Here I would like them to be trained by Waqar and Wasim, for Pakistanis have what can be described best as a pace bowlers CULTURE stretching back a good 20 years!!

    [Reply]

    Dr D Mishra, UK Reply:

    sorry, what I was trying to say was that certain communities excel in certain fields and it helps to follow the leader

    [Reply]

    Dr D Mishra, UK Reply:

    that is also why the BNP is also most active in Dagenham

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Some interesting points.

    I have always wondered why India a country of 1.2 billion people can not produce good runners at, middles and long distance. After all Ethiopia (which BTW is Muslim) manages to do, as does Kenya.

    The answer is complex and probably would involve not only culture but also training opportunities as well as bursaries. Many Ethiopian and Kenyans train here in Europe as well as in the US. Indians do not do that.

    At village, county and national level in the UK, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims are making very similar progress there is not much difference in terms of religion.

    Swimming, now that is different and yes Muslims have a special issue here, which is no different from Jewish girls, both now and in the middle of the last century. The point here is conservatism, which is not solely applicable to Muslims.

    Bengal has had foot-ball clubs for over a 100 years, yet they have never ever achieved much, either at regional or international level.

    We were once un-beatable in Hockey and now we get eliminated at early stages of most tournaments.

    Pakistan does very well in Squash and Polo, besides cricket.

    I think your observations are correct and should you look, you will find that explanation is more centred around secular issues rather than religious issues.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    After all Ethiopia (which BTW is Muslim) manages to do,

    Says it all really oh yes MUSLIM , BTW MUSLIM
    Now lets illuminate some dark ignorant minds.
    Blacks are ALWAYS AHEAD in all forms of SPRINTING, This is GENETIC FULL STOP ?Evolutionary Biology. Have you heard of a BLACK SWIMMER OF ANY REPUTE.
    Kenyans are good at ONLY one form of sprinting that is MARATHON .
    Also modern sport is 60% SCIENCE , the more developed the country , the more chance of success , this applies to olympic sports.In fact one Russian tennis player went to florida , and she returned to become world champion.
    I came to know a little about GREY HOUND RACING which is a big sport in uk.
    There was a philipino guy who used to shoot in his camcorder (special variety) , this race. Apparently there is a big demand amongst punters who analyse the race at their leisure time.

    The first thing that will strike you is the dog. THE ANATOMY IS BIZARRE.Very very thin cylindrical torso , legs are two third the length of the body. They are kept SLIM LIKE HELL,
    and they all die prematurely from cardiac failure.
    Panditji’s **** never cease to stop or in keeping with his caste behaviour.
    BEFORE SPORTS INDIAN CHILDREN NEED FOOD FOOD FOOD FOOD , so that they dont have auburn hair but shiny black hairs

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    If this is illumination then I rather stay in darkness. But then this is hardly illuminations, is it.

    If Blacks are genetically adapt at long distance running, then why is it that Zimbabwean, Nigerian, Botswanians, etc do not figure prominently in medals tally.

    But Moroccans (BTW Muslims and Arabs) do. Here is a limited example:

    Hicham El Guerrorj Gold for 1500 meters 2004 Olympics

    Hasna Benhassi 2004 Silver Womans 8000 meters.

    Jaouad Gharib 2008 Beijing Silver, Men’s Marathon.

    shan Reply:

    To the dark soul, of the american sprinters like jesse owens or carl Lewis or Usain Bolt (BTW jamaican) , why are they all black. Also if one can get through your tymphanic cranium
    EXCEPTIONS PROVE THE RULE

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Most of the American basketball and american football players are blacks. However water/snow games (like swimming, rowing, skating, ice hockey etc) are all whites.

    Most of the sprinters and runners from US (like Carl lewis, Mariann etc) are blacks; however gymnasts are whites.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ram Autar,
    Read the link below and see how you pakistanis still follow HINDU caste system…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhtaran_Bibi

    ram autar Reply:

    punjabi muslims are recent converts only in 20th century punjab became muslim majority .all their customs during marriage are like hindus.
    but there is a difference,
    among hindus follwing casteism and preserving it duty,while among muslims it is sin.

    Rajeev Reply:

    What about Ashraf, Ajlaf and Arjal in India?

    shan Reply:

    @rajeev, You seem to engage with Mo autar more than rest of us. can he be an ISI man watching Indian Internet sites.

    Rajeev Reply:

    :) You got that right…I need to ignore this terrorist.

    Ravi Reply:

    If black people have a genetic advantage in speed, stride and endurance then one would expect that they would win all the races, this is certainly not true. This advantage should be evident not only now but should have been true historically as well, as there has been no recent change to genetic make-up of black people. Blacks excelling in athletics and sport are comparatively recent phenomenon.

    So genetic dis-advantage alone is not sufficient to explain why Indians perform badly in athletics and sport. Football is a non contact sport, yet Indians are not known to excel in it.

    shan Reply:

    Rajeev was incisive , when he labelled a certain person of “The Faith”. The reference to non contact is a veiled dig at hindus non combative character(read effiminate). However hockey is also non contact. However his brother’s and sisters in pakistan and bangladesh hasn’t really lit the shy with success in football.
    However football is a SPORT OF ENDURANCE AND LOT OF SPRINTING thus again lot of black players , on top of that SCIENCE is the underbelly of that sport.

    Ravi Reply:

    I am strugling to understand the above rant.

    Binoy help, what is this moron talking about.

    shan Reply:

    Binoy cannot help you , ask osama or any of your biradiri

    Ravi Reply:

    If Binoy can not help me then that is a testimony to how bad your writing skills are that no one, not even your chamchaaaar can understand what you wirte (read rant).

    As for my biradari, it is sufficiently better than your’s that I have no need to remind people of our Nobelaaar laurietaar and other such Kuttar.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, Pakistan…

    They were good in sports. (they ,may still are in select ones).. What happened to them in the CWG? It may protend to a real bad situation amongst the young if the medals they won are the maximum they could do with the best they have. Because it shows that young men and women are losing interest in games, not participating as they used to do, and worse, they are pulled to radicalism because of persomnalities like Hamid.

    I wonder if anybody has written any article or some analysis on this.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, Well there may be some long bearded ones with a fatwa saying SPORTS IS UNISLAMIC

  • shan

    BNP is also pretty active in Panditji’s place if it is leeds or oldham ,not far from leeds or derwen , or
    dewsbury, in fact whole of north east .

    [Reply]

  • syed

    One significant issue that ppl here are missing out in this debate is that the middle class amongst Indian muslims is extremely extremely small (maybe Kerala might be the exception due to NRI remittances).
    You have the extremely rich 0.01% class such as the large muslim tanneries in Kanpur, the carpet industrailits of Bhadohi etc., WIPRO chairman etc. The EWS/LIG segments account for well over 90% of the muslim population leaving much less than 10% of the muslim population belonging to the “middle class”. How is this significant?
    Well, for one, this class is the one which acts as the opinion maker for any group. Most athletes and educated ppl come from this class as anyone else of influence.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed , as usual , precise and to the point.But Ashish is more concerned about his reportee’s five times prayer. These guys live in cloud cuckoo land , in a smug cosy world of their own.
    The bottom line is India needs to do what rest of G7 well why not include russia thus G8 has done.
    Compulsory education till 16, massive increase in food production , and also massive spending in social sectors like housing , water supply , and hospitals.
    We need a Azim Premji equivalent in Government who will radically overhaul the administration.
    Even the wage that is calculated for central govt employees is the same colonial methods.
    This DA and all that ,it is extinct in the country that introduced these things in their colony.
    There are million such things which the colonies have still hung on to while the MASTER have junked them long ago.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed-

    NRI remittance definitely has helped more Muslims to get into middle class in kerala. however, a good percentage of kerala Muslims were in middle class even before the mass labour movement to the Gulf countries, Muslims are the richest after christians in the state.

    I agree with Vinay and Shoeb that these type of issues have to be viewed in a localized/regionalized perspective, rather than an all India perspective. The UP/MP/Bihar/west Bengal/Rajastan belt has many issues that are affecting Muslims also., in fact worsely, because of their “starting” position. The incorporation of South indian Muslims into middle class will be at a similar rate (may be slightly less/slightly more depending on specific localities) like Hindus. My guess is that there will be a lesser percentage of Muslims in the middle class in the Muslim dominant areas like Malappuram in Kerala, Gulbarga in Karnataka, Vanayampadi in Tamil Nadu etc The UP etc sitruation is a magnified version; because separation, exclusivity, ghetoization are the patterns of domicilehood in the North.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas , before you get panic stricken about Muslims SPARE A THOUGHT ABOUT THE HINDUS IN YOUR STATE
    A powerful field that can control society is education. At present, the education sector in Kerala is under the control of minorities, who are politically influential and economically sound through the remittances made by Non-Resident Keralites (NRKs).

    While minorities run 3340 schools in the state, the entire Hindu jatis are in possession of just 194 schools. Muslim and Christian communities manage 223 arts and science colleges whereas all Hindu jatis together manage only 42 colleges (vide ‘Matrubhumi’ daily, September 28, 2002). Out of the 433 professional colleges, only 86 are government-owned, 89 are Hindu-managed while 258 are managed by the minorities (G.K. Suresh Babu, ‘Kesari Annual, 2004).
    Of the state’s 199,000 schoolteachers, the Hindu share (inclusive of SCs/STs) is just 38 percent. According to the 1997 statistics, Kerala had 14200 college teachers of whom 76 percent belonged to minority communities (G. K. Suresh Babu). All these statistics show of an unorganized, demographically ever-shrinking Hindu community of Kerala.
    Similarly, the Hindu share in the industry, agriculture and commerce is 28, 24 and 28 percent, respectively. At the same time, the Muslim share is 30, 23 and 40 percent and Christian share is 35, 40 and 36 percent, respectively (‘Matrubhumi’). I think, like the Hindus of Kerala, no other community in the world is marginalized as much. In several sectors, Hindus lag behind but in the case of suicides, they are leaders. Kerala’s suicidal rate is above the national average; it is 30.5 for every one lakh population. A recent NGO study reveals that 92 percent suicides were committed by Hindus. 6.5 percent by Christians and 1.5 percent by Muslims. Insolvency is the main reason for the mass suicides in Kerala.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Shan,

    That is what I have been saying.. that when people talk about Muslim problems (or any oroblem) it should be viewed from a state or within state certain district perspective and not an all India perspective. I have all along said Muslims are the second richest community, VChristians the richets community in kerala. However, Muslims in malappuranmm district, lag behind Muslims in oter districts as wella s other communities because of ‘gfhettoization”.

    The real losers in Kerala have been the so called forward castes – namboodiris, nairs etc because they cannot get into government colleges due to the shrinking merit quotas available and the reservation for all including creamy layers.

    And I have consistently questioned when people talk about brahmin rule and control etc in these blogs — sitting from where I am, I see Brahmins in real survival struggle rather than controlling anybody. They are poor, most of them work as temple priests, and all their land holdings taken away thru land reforms. Again may be a local problem, possible that brahmins in North india controlled all the resources. Not in kerala, not in Tamil Nadu, not in Karnataka, and not in Andhra. For crying outr loud, I bet there is no more than 5 Brahmins among the richest 100 Indians..

    shan Reply:

    ‘Gopi Thomas , it would be weird if the HINDU JATI in “god’s own country” only comprised of Namboodiris and Eshavays or whatever. The HALLMARK of Hindu Jati is the CASTE SYSTEM.
    My conjecture is Hindus are poor because they did not go to a MLECHA (gulf) country to earn money as others did , thus lost in POWER FROM WEALTH.
    There is a tendency amongst the muslims and christians to DENY that they converted from Hinduism. Any keralite christian you meet will tell you they have descended from the st Thomas or his acolytes. Same with the muslims , they all descended from arab traders.
    It’s a bit like the Australians , they don’t want to talk about their ancestry , lest a CONVICT shows up in the geneology.

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, Have you asked yourself why there is ghettoisation. because they FEEL SAFE. The whites will say same about ghettoisation of “browns” is Jackson Height In newyork or Newjersey.
    To discuss anything you need HARD DATA. for Uk if you scroll upwards there are some illumininating facts. That most of pakistanis and bangladeshi’s are not in salaried job. 25% of all pakistanis are Taxi Drivers in Uk.So they all start with a VERY LOW BASE. On top of that RELIGION AS PREACHED AT THE MOMENT doesn’t help. But religion or mosque is the bosom where they seek solace , being cut of from mainstream, EXACTLY LIKE BLACKS IN AMERICAN SOUTH.
    Contrast this with ISMAILEE, I know it first hand in UK , they are from Different Planet, though being GUJRATI may also have had some role to play.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    I believe that Taxi driver’s family will be better off if he did not live with his fellow Muslims (to put it rudely). Actually, it is much different when somebody migrates, especialy without a language and professional background.

    However, the “ghettoization” i mentioned above is self imposed, and in cases like Malappuram created by govt for appeasement..

    My recommendation/observation on what I have observed in india (North, South and West bengal) is that Muslims do well if they live in integarted areas (like in most of South india); and do quite bad if they live in their own isolated cocoons.

    Muslims in kerala I am sure are regretting the formation of Malappuram for them. Toa dd insult to injury, Mullahs wanted a campus of Aligarh Muslim Univ here,a nd the leftist govt allowed that too.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    rajeev, pl point out where ravi supported osama or terrorism against india. pl use cut and paste.
    re SHAN, Have you noticed a certain dynamic here- he used to strut around like a peacock impressing ppl with his ‘I am a doctor’ and quoting obscure authors.
    Then this blog became popular, and when other doctors and ppl from UK joined, he started singling them out for abuse, particularly when they corrected him. Threatened the informal ‘UK expert’ ‘medical expert’ role that he had appropriated for himself.
    Basically, he is a shallow and insecure individual, which is why in addition to disgust, I am feeling a new emotion for him- PITY

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan ,actually the majority community should PITY you for your limited reach in matters intellectual, thus marlowe is obscure , so is patrick french , so is Eugene Rogan.
    However let me DISTURB you in your slumber of superstition and smugness, here is a quote from
    Marlowe’s TAMBURLANE(that is Taimur Lung the fearsome muslim ruler from Central asia)
    part two page 135
    In vain I see men worship Mahomet:
    My sword hath sent millions of Turks to hell
    Slew all his priests , his kinsmen , and his friends
    And yet i live untouched by Mahomet
    There is GOD full of revenging wrath ,
    From whom the thunder and lightening breaks ,
    Whose scourge I am, and him will I obey,
    So Casane , fling them in the fire
    [THE BOOKS ARE BURNT] hopefully I do not have to elaborate what book he is referring to (shan)
    Now, Mahomet, if thou have any power
    Come down tyself and work a miracle
    Thou art not worthy to be worshipped
    That suffers flames of fire to burn the writ
    Wherein the sum of thy religion rests
    …..
    ……
    …….
    That shakes his sword against thy majesty
    And spurns the abstracts of thy foolish laws?
    well, soldiers, mahomet remains in hell;
    he cannot hear the voice of Tamburlane
    Seek out another godhea to adore.

    As a doctor a little advice , if feeling dizzy or nauseus , take stemetil tablets.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Was there a point to this, other than the obvious one, to boast.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    The point was made by Christopher marlowe, that is for anyone with a little grasp of english to see.

    Ravi Reply:

    It is obvious that your own grasp of English is limited.

    You have accepted an anti Muslim Rant of Christopher Marlowe – who incidentally also wrote Dr Faustus who is one of the few people to have sold his soul – to be God’s gospel.
    An atheist Marlowe reflects religious debates from the 16th century; he was arrested for blasphemy and was stabbed to death for his involvement in secret service and London low life.

    Marlowe fool you.

    shan Reply:

    “Marlowe whose blasphemies stood for an impulse that was acceptable to MODERN readers.-free thought, anti philistinism,the quest for transcendence.The proof of Marlowe’s struggle to be good came in the form of Dr Faustus. By the 1880 IT HAD BECOME ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYS IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE.in telling the story of EDUCATED UNBELEIVER ,who sold his soul to the devil , MARLOWE reconsidered his own excursion into FREE THOUGHT from a mature perspective”(David Riggs , , The world of Christopher Marlowe)

    Ram , to make you happy Marlowe described Mary ,mother of Christ as a prostitute. It will need some time to dig out the exact reference.
    However REFLECT why UK, FRANCE USA is kicking the shit out of LIBYA.
    Let LIBYA bomb the hell out of these country.
    HOPE YOU DONT BELEIVE THIS WAS DONE TO PROTECT THE LIBYAN PEOPLE FROM GADDAFI.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan,taimur lang was atheist.though he was hafiz quran and could recite holy quran fronm reverse .
    killed 500000 people conquered 6 contries used to sleep on horse.at the death he was praying asking allah for forgivenes.also told that no problem can be solved war talk and negotiation is the only way.

    remaining all is foolishnes and zoinist propaganda.yesterday one fake zoinist pastor burned the copy of holy of quran.
    these bstrd wants christian-muslim war and kill both.for them hindus are worst than rats
    should work as their foot soldier and die for their cause.

    if i abuse ur religion ,it shows u.we are sure that we are right hence hardly care for others.or abuse others.zoinist were pain of europe since came to usa became pain of america and world.
    i past half my life with bengalis.unhi kee zulfoon mein badha pala hoon.
    tum zaroor kisi musalmaan kee aulad.ho sakta hai meree hi ho.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    However REFLECT why UK, FRANCE USA is kicking the shit out of LIBYA.
    Let LIBYA bomb the hell out of these country.

    they are robbers.wants to rob the wealth of other countries.to improve their economy.

    HOPE YOU DONT BELEIVE THIS WAS DONE TO PROTECT THE LIBYAN PEOPLE FROM GADDAFI.

    are u joking game is to rob libyan wealth and kill as many they or their ally can.under ghaddafi housing was free education health was free.no unemployed.10%of students were sent to europe for higher education.anyone with serious disease has right to go to america or europe for better treatment.rebels were armed to the teath by zoinists.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rizwan,
    You better start reading his posts in all Zia’s blogs..They are too many and his blind support for known Osama supporter Ram Autar should help you understand more about this closet Jehadi..Anyway I don’t care what you guys think of him. I am sure that this guy is potential Jihadi.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ossama did not kill any indian.gundaas of parivar mascared thousands.though i never support him.he is fighting for his people while people are fkng indians.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Wow!!!….Good joke again.