The pharaoh’s last sigh; what it means for Islam



Gamal Abdel Nasser, Egypt’s second president and one of the most important political figures of the Arab world, would often proudly say: “Nah-nu Abna-ul Feroin.” That’s Arabic for “We are sons of the Pharaohs”.

Unless used to historically describe the pharaohs, feron, the Urdu word for pharaoh, is often used to describe somebody stupidly stubborn. Example, “That guy is such a feron.”

Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is often dubbed as a “modern-day Pharaoh”.

He must be aware that, 3000 years ago, when the boy-king Tutankhamun died, chaos resembling the one in modern Cairo broke out.

Like Mubarak, the pharaohs ruled with iron fists. Pharaonic regimes created cult personalities like that of Mubarak.

And the seemingly unshakeable empire disintegrated after its last ruler died, paving the way for instability. As a mighty wave of protest lapped at his presidency for 18 days, Mubarak met a similar pharaonic end.

The world and indeed the West need not fear Egypt’s transition. Mubarak had been holding on to power with backing from the West, which has preferred a dictator like him to Muslim Brotherhood, one of the world’s most powerful Islamist movements.

The overthrow of a Muslim dictator in Tunisia and Egypt’s own shake-up all point to the Muslim world gravitating towards democracy.

The Muslim Brotherhood has itself evolved from its radical “anti-West” stand of its ruling ideologue, the radical Sayed Qutb.

Though it still avows conservative pan-Islamism, the Brothers have generally been talking of steering clear of violence and agreeing to democratic norms. It will continue to be harsh on Israel and friendly towards Hamas though.

If democracy is to be allowed to take roots in Egypt, then the Muslim Brothers must be allowed to participate in elections. They already do.

Egypt could be the bellwether for many near-dictatorial Arab regimes. Jordan, Iran and others could be prodded into bringing more reforms into their systems to accommodate people’s aspirations for more freedom.

This is clearly the way to go. Dictators can plant themselves in, but democracy can hardly be foisted from above. It has to strike roots from within.

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  • Raju Kurien

    What happened in Egypt is remarkable.

    However, revolutions have happened many times all across arabian peninsula; initially providing a ray of hope and then regressing even worse.

    The history of that place is that Muslims prefer strong men – reminiscent of Caliphs to rule them. It was true in 1920s when Indian Muslims rioted to establish Caliphate back in Turkey (figure it out),
    and every rebvolution after that – Ghadaffi, Nasser-sadat-Mubrak, Pakistani generals,Bengla desi generals (although these two are not Arabian countries), and the numerous fru..ng kings.

    Kudos to Egyptians if they can take this to the next step. The same military and teh same Sulieman are still in power; let us hope nad pray these guys to not dash the hope of Egypta nd the world by taking over the reins permanenntly. History of Muslim world is not on the side of the aspiring people who assembled at Tahir Square. Let us hope history does not repeat this time.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    true in 1920s when Indian Muslims rioted to establish Caliphate back in Turkey

    roiting was instigated by seargent major M K GHANDHI of south african white forces.later converted into mahatama by british rulers of india.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Zia, I wouldn’t count your chickens yet. Though few things are UNIQUELY poised this time ,which makes it difficult to predict the future. has this happened in 1990 ,allyou would have seen Mubarak replaced by another military dictator. What is so different this time INTERNET /MEDIA revolution. The world is smaller , MASSIVE TOURISM BRINGING FOREIGN EXCHANGE, to these countries., changes the world view. But there is always that spanner in the works ISLAM BROTHERHOOD OR OTHERWISE. There is no half way house , you cannot have a THEORCATIC DEMOCRACY , that is oxymoron . You got to go the full works , LIBERAL SECULAR DEMOCRACY WITH TOTAL FREEDOM .Going by the examples of Pakistan and bangladesh can’t say I am great deal optimistic. these countries also had spasmodic spells of democracy OR SHAM DEMOCRACY(just reflect on current state of pakistan , a country under seize from ISLAMIST)

    [Reply]

  • shan

    few observation about the heading of this blog.Reminds one of salman rushdie’s The Moor’s last sigh, that was the SUNSET of that glorious ANDALUCIAN /BERBER civilization. so dont know what Zia is implying.
    Also Muslims in Egypt ARE OVERWHELMINGLY DESCENDED FROM ARAB CONQUERERS . the true descendant of Pharoah are COPTIC CHRISTIANS and we allknow how they are faring in SHARIA COMPLIANT CONSTITUTION of Egypt.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Shan

    You are right. We have to wait and see. Let us hope they can make it. But I am sure Sharia, the big elephant or gurilla of Islam etc will have looming poresence and everything may have a fall– but for the youngsters stake, let us pray and hope for.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    raju u are right country at the end will be run under sharia.india was under sharia for 800 yrs.became economic superpower.chor kee police se phatti kyon hai.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    did u heard any gujrat or orrisa there.arabs are few like brhmns in india.80%of local population converted to islam.including OMAR sherief famous hollywood actor.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Well, let us hope it wont turn into an iranian revolution!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    binoy,why

    Hindus behave like brainless moths

    It is a formidable task for you to go on at your age. I hope you will have a band of young men to continue this movement. The main point in my article was to show the similarity between the behaviour of Hindu-Faithfuls and the moths. For millions of years all insects developed their nervous system to be guided by star-light or moon-light which are at optical-infinity. When they came into areas of man-made artificial lights they get dis-oreinted. They think they are going in straight line, but they fly into spirals around the lights. Hindus are made to believe by the wily priests that by going round and round the stone idols they will earn the grace of god to win a place in Vaikhunta [Lord Vishnu’s], being released from the cycle of birth and death. If a rich man builds a Balaji- Temple, people of the area rush there, just like moths when a second light is switched on. Or even at the reflection of the lamp in the pail of water. This should get wide publicity among youth. This is what I wanted to say in “Narayana Murthy & Brahmins

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    what the f—k are you talking about? Did you lose all your marbles?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    it is official ram autar is suffering from generalparalysis of the insane. it happens when somebody is infected by treponema pallidum

    RajX Reply:

    Dude, you are as mad as Mohamed.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    It looks like it was a genuine grounds up movement, driven by idealistic young men and women, later joined by all Egyptians. Even Islamic Brotherhood was caught offguard. The key now is to watch whether the military will play some games; the Tahir Square meeting should not be disbanded precisely because of that fear.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @L mirza , absolutely true , the GOOGLE executive spearheading this movement can hardly be expected to cohabit with islamic brotherhood, then there is ARMY , a completely unpredictable character. And will mullahs take it lying down if the google executive applies all that he had learnt in Google that is macroeconomics , knowledge power , serving the people ,invention etc and fundamentally RELIGION HAS NO BUSINESS IN RUNNING A COMPANY or in this case COUNTRY.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Yes; religions, whatever they may be, have not done a good job running a country, precisely because there is never a single binding religion in any country; if a single issue should bind, there are more powerful factors like language, race etc..

    Although Wahabis try hard to implement their version, many others, leave alone Shias, are struggling against that. The Pakistani killings, while there are several dimensions to it, should be also viewed in terms of Wahabi against other Suni Muslims.

    Neither the church, nor the Mosque can lead the people to their aspitrations. Synagogues, Hindu Temples, Budhist monasteries never attempted to rule; may be they had the wisdom which church and mosque did not have.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    buhddhist monastries are ruling thailand lanka everywher.martial art came from their monastries.
    budhhda was very voilent used to kill his opponents personally.brhmns defeated them and annihilated them so their martial art also vanished from india.but other place where budhism was in power their art was attached with monastries.in burma ruling junta cannot move even an inch without their wishes.

    Charagh Hasan Hasrat Reply:

    Mr. Zia : You may have read books / papers / etc., and gathered knowledge about Egypt. But believe me., i have lived with Egyptians and Arabs of all hues for the past 30 years. Believe me., i am not prejudiced but let me put few things straight.

    1. Barking dogs seldom bite. So while the Arabs bark and bark., when it comes to giving blood and sacrifice (tyaag)., they simply melt away. They are not willing to study hard., work hard., and die for their values. They want someone to protect / maintain their freedom. They look upto USA / USSR (now no more).. as if moaning : “Aa ke hamara masla hal karo..”. Fact of the matter is., that Arabs in general and Egyptians in particular., are people of low moral character and grit.

    2. Now the Tahreer Square Drama followed by USD 80 Billionaire Hosni Mubarak has left (to Paris or Nice ? along with his sons Jamal and Alaa)., who is next.

    3. Dictators hide behind the flag of islam… Islam believes in maintaining status quo., and basically does not Encourage Revolt or Revolution. Dictators have used this ARGUMENT to plant themselves… and Muslims… as a people… basically love Dictators (Benevolent Dictators like Nehru., Ayub Khan, Nasser etc). Democracy is considered empty talk. Bandon ko ginaa kartey hain, tolaa nahin kartey … as Iqbal said… but then Iqbal was wrong. All talk of Pan Islam is a bluff. All talk of brotherhood is bakwaas.

    4. The real revolution would happen when the criminal and fraudulent Al Saud Dynasty of Saudi Arabia (KSA – Kingdom of Sex and Aparthied) is overthrown. You have to write boldly… on KSA… a criminal police state… but they will throw out 1 million Indians if you speak the truth… They will not sell oil to you.. (embargo). This is precisely what i want to say… once you speak the truth., they get angry and go into denial. So be it. Write the truth and speak the truth…even if it means deportment of 1 million indians in Kingdom of Sex and Aparthied.

    ram autar Reply:

    americans and their brhmncl ally are looting india and indian.ksa and other agcc countries are feeding them .u all are agents of west u have hurt and enslave this country.
    u are the biggest traitor.people of saudi arabia will do it at right now they are enjoying the fruits of 500 billion dollars development plan.
    indian standing in well being is 134.with 17000 sucide in andhra alone.47%enemic women ,infant death rate is more than subsahara rewgion.
    islam wants status quo now as this is best for people.ur hate mongering has no takers.

    shan Reply:

    @charagh hasrat , OUTSTANDING , I remember an Egyptian doctor , and he was talking about the allthe virtues of islam .Then i had to knock at his room (we were both on duty in a hospital), to my amusement when he opened the door i saw a stack full of porn mags. now there is nothing wrong with porn mags , just that a moment ago he was slagging off the western culture.
    Also I think with saudi and iran and gulf what it mirrors is life itself .If you have too much money , very difficult to remain SANE.

    ram autar Reply:

    i agree with u shan but case of change through revolution is india.not saudi arabia.there is no begger no unemployement no suicide.islam is their ideal and sex magzine is their deed.but as human being they are still far better than bloody europeans oir high caste hindus.who thrives basically on frauds cheating and scams.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Now, I brace myself for one of Ravi’s long pointless rants about how hindus and sikhs are equally bad, this has nothing to do with Islam etc etc
    For those of who may have missed it, there is a VERY HUMOROUS EXCHANGE HIDDEN ABOVE. A bit of black humour at Ravi’s expense. It starts with Rajeev’s dig on Ravi at 1.03 am, Feb 15 and finishes with my joke at 3.42am.
    Happy reading.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Juvenile humour becomes you.

    ram autar Reply:

    but they will throw out 1 million Indians if you speak the truth

    truth is this indians, especially hindus love to live there.one advertizement in delhi brings thousands to recruiting offices.they give them something which shaitan bussinesmen will never give them.good secured life security good salary. common man is interested in these things.arabs are lazy ,yes,because struggle for life is not very hard like in india.as human being they are thousand time better than crooked high caste hindus.

  • ram autar

    egyptian revolution imystery.i think it is begining of the end of a country called egypyt.sad day for egyptian.either it will become iraq or somalia.bad and hurtening news for everybody.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram, for once i m taking you seriously.. can you elaborate why it will descend to somalia/iraq levels.. wioll there be fight between various groups. elaborate please

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    because of world power rivalry and its proximity to israel.somalia used to be very peaceful country but the same power have converted them into pirates.iraq was far better under saddam.

    angrezi hai jahan
    ghareebi hai wahan.

    this is part 1 of drama.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Yeah, this Egyptian moment was historic and to an extent very emotional but end result to this revolution will be another Iran like Islamic regime.
    The muslims are incapable of true democracy where everyone is treated as equals. They will have democracy but with muslims as 1st grade citizens.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev ,it is not so much a question of muslims as 1st class rest 2nd class,THAT IS RACISM WHITE NATIONS have perfected that art.THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS SECULAR DEMOCRACY, no four wives , no summary divorce with three talaqs , and NO DECISION MADE FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF THE SOCIETY NEEDSTO BE SCREENED BY THE FILTER OF HADITH AND SHARIA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan dont forget that democratic calcutta has 1 million prostitute in sona gachi.selling their body for food.it is far better to have 4 wives than 50 keeps.muslim countries should be run under sharia.
    sharia laws far better than secular democracy of america where each one is hating other.

    rajeev hinduism is the only religion which says man is born unequal.

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    “hinduism is the only religion which says man is born unequal.”

    why dont u prove it.

    is casteism part of hinduism…or just part of the indian culture. Also search for “Three Estates” on google.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr kunal caste are made by lord krishna hence divine.

    shan Reply:

    @ram just reading the last mughal. Bahadur shah zafar married for the umpteenth time at the age of SIXTY SIX A GIRL OF NINETEEN.he had innumerable concubines , does the word HAREM ring a bell.Zafar infact fathered a son by his concubine at the age of SEVENTY, then that all he was capable of , BEING TREATED LIKE A DOG BY THE BRITISH

    ram autar Reply:

    SHAN THOSE DAYS and inour society(hindu or muslim)kings used to marry many women.krishna had 1603,cuncubines inspite of this used to fk neighbours wife radha.
    one marriage is christian thought ,not indian.most of the rajput kings used to have 30-40 ladies.
    but looters of india wrote history which was convenient to them.

    britishers treated ur father also like dogs. these uncultured robbers show their meanness anywhere they go.all institutions of uk are built by wealth looted from india. they had nothing.
    looted india with indian money.
    only few dallal;s like u support them and hail them.clean their boots and kiss their a$$.they executed 22 his sons.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Also seem to have missed that bit of Ravi threatening to beat up Balwinder in his own gurdwara. Hilarious, this blog is getting entertaining at last.

    Er, Ravi sure you want to take on the surd on his home turf? Let me know when you are going, I will stand with an ambulance outside and pray to allah for your soul.

    Brilliant, Sir

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mr.Misra,
    This Ravi is a jehadi guy..don’t waste your time with this SOB.

    ram autar Reply:

    rajeev jehadi jehad se pahle kafir kee lete hain phir jehad pe jatein hain tumhe hoshiar rahne kee zaroorat hai.dost ho bata.

    Rajeev Reply:

    g@ndu…Mo-Autar… Finally both you and your talibani brother Ravi are exposed…Go F*ck urself.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Does that mean that each Jehadi takes Mohammad’s first? That’s a strange ritual.

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev, your use of the word g@ndu, whose english equivalent is a s s h o l e. The word you have used WAS INVENTED IN CALCUTTA , how did you come across that word.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    contd from my last post above-
    EGYPT AND TURKEY- how similar. Most of the Indians in this blog may not have met either of these 2 ppl. I have met lots of them in UK. Egyptians in the NHS and Turks from Stoke Newington who used to come to Whittington hospital where I worked a long time ago.

    Very moderate people, very nice ppl- but both fighting hard to keep the ten tonne gorilla in their midst down. The gorilla that is raisng its ugly head in UK, India, Europe, Indonesia and Pakistan- radical Islam. Whether it was Kemal Ataturk or Nasser or Hosni, they succeeded in keeping radical Islam at bay ruthlessly. The army helped.

    Now we wait, will Pakistan become Egypt or will Egypt become Pakistan. Israel is nervous and so should we.

    ram autar Reply:

    mishra jee 20 million hindus are working in various muslim countries.have u ever heard any one of them is attacked because of their religious believes.isreal is curse for humanity.i am not against jews.
    but neocons sitting in new york and telaviv re planning wars and land grabbing.evry year they take america to some country to fight and spend all their financial resources there.now 50000 americans live in refugee camps in canada.they have main supplier of arms in india.since then all types of scams are coming day in and day night.alliance of india pakistan and iran is best alliance will provide jobes to atleast 2 crores indian.while americans and israelis will use us to fight against china and drain all our resources.
    islam is guerrilla ,muslims are conviced islamic rules are best in world.i know 4 europen women who were captured by taliban converted to islam aftert their release and became their spokeman.

    as far as they are hurting us and we make money what is the problem.show of european has been very bad all candidates proved to be thieve and liars.because of husni mubarak kuwait -iraq problem could not be solvedhe took from america 500000dollars per soldier,to cheat arabs.americans made 200-300 dollars in this war.

    raj Reply:

    while americans and israelis will use us to fight against china and drain all our resources.
    — china is using pakistan to drain our resources, & china is already in kashmir
    — china uses nothe korea to drain south korea & japan.
    — lslamist want to convert india into to islamic country, while china wants to convert india to communist vassal to be controlled , like vietnam, cambodia & north korea.
    — both islamist & china have nothing good for india.

    ram autar Reply:

    na is using pakistan to drain our resources, & china is already in kashmir.neighbours cannot be change.make frienship solve kashmir problem.india is more important than kashmir.
    — china uses nothe korea to drain south korea & japan.no american is forcing thewm to play tyhis role.
    — lslamist want to convert india into to islamic country,islamist dont want india to islamic country.otherwise could do this easily during their 1000 yeqar rule.now they are weak.friendship will be at our term. while china wants to convert india to communist vassal to be controlled , like vietnam, cambodia & north korea.CHINA IS FRIENDLY TO ALL ITS NEIGHBOUR THEY WANT TO AVOID WAR.
    — both islamist & china have nothing good for india.NOBODY IS AS BAD AS ZOINISTS.WE SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.SHOULD NOT WAQSTE RESOURCES IN ARM PURCHASE.BUILD INDIA SHOULD BE THE FINAL AIM.

    shan Reply:

    @Raj , CHINA is a threat to human civilization.last night there was a programme on BBC titled “The chinese are coming”. It showed how chinese are digging masive holes in brazil to extract iron ore , bit this ore needs converting to iron , and you need FUEL. Million Hectares OF AMAZON RAILFOREST IS LOGGED DOWN AND THE WOOD BURNT(yes you have read it correct) to CONVERT INTI CHARCOAL TO BE USED IN BLAST FURNACES. they have also ruined the BRIZILIAN BIKINI INDUSTRY by flooding with cheap exports, causing hardship to brazilians.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    otherwise could do this easily during their 1000 yeqar rule
    — its like saying , hitler is good man, see how many jews were alive after world war. if he wanted he could hv killed all jews….

    pathetic…

    raj Reply:

    @shan, CHINA is a threat to human civilization.
    agree, china is the new imperial force in south america & africa. they are so arrogant & brazzen in their activity as they don’t care for their people. they don’t hv to face any election & they don’t mind loosing a few million of their own people to save their face and power.
    i don’t understand how autar is supporting such a regime, but has blind hatred for usa, jews & europe, hindus.

    raj Reply:

    because of husni mubarak kuwait -iraq problem could not be solvedhe took from america 500000dollars per soldier,to cheat arabs.americans made 200-300 dollars in this war.
    — why didn’t the arabs themselves solve it. is IOC hopeless. you cannot just blame everything
    on USA. next what, usa supported iraq to take over kuwait , so usa can make money.

    ram autar Reply:

    — why didn’t the arabs themselves solve it. is IOC hopeless

    problem was almost solved.saddam was asking 2 billion dollars to disband his forces.very small amount .he saved arabs from shia invasion under khomeini.lost 1 million iraqis.arabs agreed but hosni and americans did give time attacked iraq.usa put 12 conditions sop peaceful agreement neocons had plan to attack iraq and rob their resources.they were passing through hard economic crisis.
    neverthless for india islamist are good.they will kick out american and all lucrative money minting contracts to india and other asian countries.that is zoinist media is weeping.sudan has islmist regime .they gave employent to thousands of indians all their oil contract.egytian love indians.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram
    problem was almost solved.saddam was asking 2 billion dollars to disband his forces
    —- 2 billion from who….
    sadam has to be blamed for this war
    The war began when Iraq invaded Iran, launching a simultaneous invasion by air and land into Iranian territory on 22 September 1980 following a long history of border disputes, and fears of Shia insurgency among Iraq’s long-suppressed Shia majority influenced by the Iranian Revolution. Iraq was also aiming to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state. Although Iraq hoped to take advantage of revolutionary chaos in Iran and attacked without formal warning, they made only limited progress into Iran and within several months were repelled by the Iranians who regained virtually all lost territory by June, 1982.

    raj Reply:

    india pakistan and iran is best alliance
    — based on what ?
    india is not even an observer in OIC, Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Conference
    india , a secular democracy with a huge population of muslims is still considered a land of kaffirs, not worth.
    so stop this islamist helping india.

    RajX Reply:

    Egypt may become Pakistan in one aspect. A sham civilian government with the army taking all the important decisions.

    raj Reply:

    but both fighting hard to keep the ten tonne gorilla in their midst
    — i have seen similar thing. mostly the first question is, are you from pakistan. i think they want to avoid muslims to have some fun in other countries and meet people from different culture.
    i reply no, & then they take out their chips to share, & open their beer bottles, but keep it covered with plastic shopping bag and drink.
    they don’t take their religion seriously, make fun of mubarak, how bad their country is, & don’t talk about caste & devadasi like our hey ram.

    mohan Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,while lamenting about the ugly face of ten tonne gorilla in the midst of muslim community,which of course is a worry, you conveniently forget for obvious reasons about the twenty tonne gorilla amongst our own .I follow up your writings ..sometimes i find you as a secular mind but at times your intrinsic penchant for the hindutwa thoughts disappoint me..especially your worship of autocrats( over a glass of wine!)..
    @ramautar sometime you talk sense..your point about Sudan(which is an Islamic nation) choosing Indain companies over the US/EU why we should be worried about the Brothers taking over Egypt…

    Rajeev Reply:

    As per webster dictionary, a synonym for Pakistani or Afghani is g@ndu.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Would it surprise you, if I said, that is also my turf.

    However, where is the fun in that.

    The fun is in you believing that I am a Muslim, and me knowing that I am not.

    If you were the A&E Doctor, I’d choose to die. That way it would have been my choice rather than your mistake.

    Keep them coming doctor, as I said, the day you can get the better of me has not been calendared yet.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Ravi, I KNOW you are a hindu. The bit about waiting for you outside Balwinders gurudwara and praying to allah was a joke. Sorry you missed it.
    Sure, maybe a bit of black humour

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra

    I am a Sikh and the Havlock Road Gurdwara is my Gurdwara too.

    I have said this before.

    When I stand up to pray and say

    “Jagat Julanda Rakh Ley, Aapni Kirpa Dhar.
    Jit Dware ubhrae, tete ley ubhar.

    I do not exclude any community from that prayer, not even the Muslims. My prayer is UNIVERSAL Prayer.

    I did get your black humor and acknowledged it with a smily.

    Did I not.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I did suspect a pro-pakistani sikh in you but you are still a talibani at heart.

    ram autar Reply:

    Anything the Brahminists touch becomes mud. Did we not say this? The latest is the much publicised Nano which has become a big zero. Nobody wants it even free.
    was the first to disclose that the Nano was not fully indigenous as claimed but had plenty of German parts.

    New Delhi: Automaker Tata Motors much hyped “world’s cheapest” car Nano has failed to meet expectations as it witnessed a steep decline to 509 units in November this year as compared to 3,065 units sold in the previous month. The decline came during the month when the company had asked customers to bring back the people’s car to add safety devices to prevent it from catching fire. Nano failed to enthuse buyers and witnessed only 2% growth as compared to the same month year ago.

    ram autar Reply:

    The “yoga guru” Ramdev Yadav, is a lower caste OBC. Why the Brahminists are carrying him on their heads and lavishing so much of publicity in their toilet papers?

    The secret is he is dancing to the tunes of the Hindu terrorist party, RSS, which has permitted him to make tons of money and travel round the world. They are even considering a big political future for him to mislead the people.

    You join the enemy camp, you will get name, fame, money — anything you want. Ultimately your name will become mud.

    ram autar Reply:

    so what is the problem in a country where 99%are muslims.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    that there will not be any democracy, or rule of law…just look into yourwestern neighbor. or look into saudi arabia. or any other fr–ed up islamic country…

    support egypt to come out stronger — but u have already cast its deathbell. so is ur preference that mubarek should have continued..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    democracy is worst for asian countries.see india.it has created havoc.it has devided societies.money is not reacing to needy.no morality.frauds are worshipped.national wealth is looted.47%of our ladies are enemic.our positions is 134.barring small minority who have occumulated wealth ,nobody is gainer of this system.even education is not fundamental right.this has been made so expensive that even middle class can not send his children to good schools.
    china is not democracy ,still doing far better for its people.
    DEMOCRACY IS THE LATEST WEAPON IN THE HAND OF CAPITALIST TO RULE AND RUIN COUNTRY.

    ram autar Reply:

    so is ur preference that mubarek should have continued..

    MR BENOY I DONT KNOW IF I AM RIGHT OR WRONG.ARMY HAS TAKEN OVER POWER.but i am sure things will take bad turn.islam is very deep rooted in egyptian society.muslim brotherhood is very powerful.egypt needs somebody like abdul gamal nasser.muslim fundamentalist will come to power through election like in algeria.turkey is taking the same turn.due to 2-300 years of imperialism and humiliation.islamic wave is very strong.
    anyhow mubarak was running system.zoinists are expert in CREATE A CRISIS AND STEAL THE NATION.

    RajX Reply:

    A good sign of an arabized idiot is the hatred of Jews which has been transferred to him through the arabization process where he takes the foes of the Arabs as his own.

    ram autar Reply:

    i am talking of zoinists not jews.jews hates them as well.jews and arabs lived like brothers for thousands of yrs.zoinists are hated by both being outsiders.

    RajX Reply:

    Arabized idiot, only Jews can be zionists since Zionism is intrinsically Jewish. An arabized idiot like you won’t understand that.

    ram autar Reply:

    stupid rajx why u arte worried

    Rajeev Reply:

    Look who is talking about democracy…a PAKISTANI MUSLIM bigot… :)

  • Dev Saha

    The Egypt event has proven again that the democracy is only long term solution for Muslim countries. Many Muslim dictators tried to shield their power with Islam but people have stopped buying that cool aide. I hope Arabs follow the true path of democracy rather than going for Iranian style fascist Islamic republic. I would not never say “If democracy is to be allowed…… ” because it is the Arabs who should decide whether to allow or not to allow. They should be adult enough to choose their future. US is not the villain of any country’s progress. Time to grow up and stop blaming the bogey man!

    [Reply]

  • RajX

    Zia thinks that Muslim brotherhood is a democratic force for gstart maybe he should start the Indian branch of Muslim brotherhood which will of course be subservient to the fake pharaohs who are actually Arabs who have no relationship with authentic historical Egyptian culture or people.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    peoplle are same pharoahs were defeated and finished by jews.that civilization finished like many other.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    I have a lot of Pak friends here in UK and they have a lot of yearning for a revolution in Pakistan. They wanted Pakistan to be the next Egypt. Now I hear that Army has taken over in Egypt and the Muslim brotherhood is slowly creaking into life. My biggest worry is -

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Yes Ravi I said- “”"” A total diaarhoea of words and a constipation of thought. A biased ranting individual full of hot air. An angry Pakistani or a dysfunctional pseudo secularist hindu”"”"
    These are my opinions of your long rants, this is not personal abuse. Face to face, I could say this in a televised debate and the moderator would not have a problem.

    But threatening to come to a local gurudwara to ’sort me out’ or telling the doctor you are gobshite (sputum and shit) and telling him that you want to ‘marry’ his daughter and become damaad – IS PERSONAL ABUSE. It is disgusting and displays your breeding and class.

    Benoy Hegde, Vinay, Dr Misra and many others have shredded your intellect with polite reasoned debates.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Keep dreaming.

    No one has come close to shredding anything.

    All anybody has ever done here is expressing his or her COOMUNAL venom.

    It is just your own personal communal haltered and your predilection to sycophancy that deludes you to think so.

    Yet again I note you missed most of the points I questioned.

    I bid you good-bye, this is my last post addressed to you. You are not worth a word more.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Talibani…You are still around..When have they started providing Net in Gitmo?

    RajX Reply:

    Hmmm.. Looks like the arabized in these posts take up names like “Ravi”. Maybe this is a tactic taught in some Islamist school breeding people to be ready for implementing their pipe dream of khilafa.

    ram autar Reply:

    Zia thinks that Muslim brotherhood is a democratic force

    they will come through election.brotherhood is voice of people.this will increase tension in the area.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Mr Mirza, brilliant comments- ….Neither the church, nor the Mosque can lead the people to their aspitrations. Synagogues, Hindu Temples, Budhist monasteries never attempted to rule; may be they had the wisdom which church and mosque did not have.

    If only all muslims thought like you. In contrast is Mr Ravi, who at the *** end of discussions on Modi Goodwill hunting, launched a personal vicious attack in intemperate language on Mishrajee. Ravi when you get cornered or when you come out second best, rather than admitting defeat you become confrontational and abusive. Ravi please learn some manners.
    Ravi’s threat to fly to UK Havelock Road gurudwara and ‘deal with me’ was cheap gangsterism. Benoy’s demolition act of Ravi in the last post should be mandatory reading for all.
    I can say that I enjoyed in particular Mishrajee’s take on dynamics of Indian muslims in UK and look forward to seeing his posts, and those of Syed, Mirza, Benoy, Gopi, Vinay etc

    [Reply]

    Karan Reply:

    The Muslim brotherhood is a anti-secular organization.it was formed as a direct response to the abolishment of the caliphate and it wants it’s restoration.again terrorist organizations like alqaeda,ham as are a direct result of this sick ideology which wants humanity to be clearly divided into muslims and luggage and countries divided into dar-ul-Islam and dar-ul-harb aka non-Islamic countries are considered as house of war.what amazes me is the ease with which zia is passing MB as some docile non threatening organization.Egypt will definitely be governed by primitive law sharia and Not democracy as islam and democracy are like fire and water.i hope for the welfare of the Coptic Christians which have been under severe attack from islamists and will continue to suffer unbearable persecution in this Islamic nightmare which Egypt is about to become into.

    ram autar Reply:

    in a country where 98%population is muslim anti-secular has no meaning.

    shan Reply:

    @Ram the fool,SECULAR has lot of meaning ,it means religion is separate from state and its laws , SO FOUR WIVES AND SUMMARY DIVORCE WITH UTTERING TALAQ THREE TIMES is not allowed.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan the genius if muslim country have 98%muslim population and they want sharia.why they should be denied.negeria had bloody european laws.muslims forced sharia and they are very happy.in sharia all citizens are treated equally before law.but punishment is islamic.i want sharia as it is cheap and instant.in nigeria vakeels and advocates have very hard time.laws are far better than european laws.for a thieve there are 30 lashes.he takes it and go to work next morning in india he will be kept in jail for months his family will starved till he recieve judgement.vakils will eat all his savings.

    shan tum angrezon ke ghulam ho u cannot think otherwise.people like u have taken india to this stage.where wife the knowledge of husband gets herself prostituted to have 3 meals a day.

    ram autar Reply:

    in a islamic country state and religion cannot be seprated.but laws are made on reason acceptble to everybody.american armies when attacked iraq were headed by evangelist pastors with guns in their hand.concept of secularism is muslim concept.on the streets of istamboul u will find church synogogue and mosque on the same street like in india where temple and mosque stood side by side.in catholic state even protestant wer not allowed to live.
    when pope comes to know about freemasonaries he killed them all.

    sharia laws are best laws should be part of state.

    ram autar Reply:

    SUMMARY DIVORCE WITH UTTERING TALAQ THREE TIMES

    there is nothing like summary divorce in islam.in arab world u have to divorce in writing in court three times with interval of 3 moths.in normal mood.this is better than christian divorce which takes years.

    4 wives under special circumstances is ok.in india bigamy is more rampt among hindus than muslim.i heardly saw a muslim having 2 wives.aduldory is punishable by death.
    all muslim marriage laws are better than christian laws.that is why in europe women are converting to islam in large numbers.in bombay also i know 11 girls who converted to islam and forced her boyfriend to convert then marry and have very happy married life.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    karan, i read recently that islamic brotherhood of today is far different than what it was when al sawhri etc were members, in fact they are a target of al queda now. It seems they want to be a ‘normaal” political party. Hope somebody else can enlighten us on their current manifesto

    syed Reply:

    @Gopi,
    That figures. The BJP which was a rabble rousing party to begin with, was totally different when in power so much so that it was the first party to take serious steps to normalise relations with Pakistan.

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder we are never bothered about u people why u areworried about.mishraa are shaitans and thugs.
    they will become doctors to rob the poors.now in lucknow ,if a dacoit comes to ur house he will leave something ,if brhmn doctor comes he will rob everything.
    see all their religious functions ,nothing but frauds.

    people of west pakistan and bangladesh were exploited since centuries.before partition there was no education among muslims ,now 22.3is good very soon bangladesh will surpass in every field.being doctor he should analyze things in better perspective.bangladeshis became properous and self confident only because they converted to islam and made bangladesh.conversion was first step towards liberation sepration was 2nd.even now they are ahead of west bengal in women education
    and position of women.many communities prefer bussines to education like u punjabis.
    but brhmn are no1 fraud i pray they all go america and europe.where they will be caught by law while doing fraud .in india pandey jee sharma jee court se bacha lete hain.

    RajX Reply:

    You sound like you will fit in right into some asylum meant for the mentally handicapped and insane.

  • ram autar

    Look who is talking about democracy…a PAKISTANI MUSLIM bigot…

    rajeev tumhari zaroor bachpan mein musalmanoo ne g=maree hai.tumse bada chutia blog par koye nahi ata hai.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar tumhari zaroor bachpan mein Hindu-Sikh-Buddhists-Chritians-everyone else ne g=maree hai.tumse bada chutia blog par koye nahi ata hai.

    [Reply]

  • prashant saxena

    Zia,
    I think Egypt has a one time opportunity to escape from the clutches of people like you, who view the world through the goggles of Islam. The separation of religion and politics has been accepted centuries ago, and is one of the cornerstones of todays civilization. Muslims don’t accept this basic fact.

    Islam, like every other religion should be just a religion, to be practised by individuals, in the privacy of their own lives, to guide their souls to God.

    If your worldview starts and stops at Islam, and every development, news, occurrence is judged by only one yardstick, whether or not it is a threat to Islam, then you cannot live in todays world. If a dog pisses, the moulvi has to declare wether or not there is a threat to Islam!! The rest of the world doesn’t suffer from Islam-o-phobia, Muslims suffer from a reality-o-phobia.

    The youth in Egypt have realised this and want to break free from the clutches of old world bigots like you. I hope people like the muslim brotherhood who live in old world islam, don’t hijack the revolution of the progressives.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims were socialist and communists .but due to continous humiliation suppression and robery of their natural resources and land ,they have taken shelter in islam.
    husni mubarak should be handed over to iraqi resistence to put him on trial for political prostitution.he made 20 billion dollars to internationalize kuwait issue.which was going to be solve easily through local mediation.
    this gave international robbers a chance to suck entire money from arab countries.

    moderate secular tulers have lost their credibility in the eye of common arab.from turkey to jakarta muslims prefer sharia over corrupt democracy.

    Mubarak’s list of crimes extends beyond the borders of the country he ruled. He collaborated with the Zionist entity against the Arab world for his entire tenure. His intelligence services were enlisted as sub-contractors for the CIA in a rendition to torture program for young men from various Arab countries. In the last few years his collaboration with the rulers of the Zionist state to impose a siege on the Palestinians of Gaza amounts to complicity in crimes against humanity. And he has spent the last year of his rule building, with the help of the American military, an underground steel wall to snuff out whatever life was left in Gaza. He also found time to help stir sectarian strife in Lebanon.

    so western supported corrupt democrats will have no place in muslim world.nations will be run on reason not religion.even saudi arabia is not run on islamic principle.but this era of bribery robery and selling the national interest has to end.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    “The muslims are incapable of true democracy where everyone is treated as equals”…

    It is oft said.. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..

    Mohammad Mosaddeq was a SECULAR popularly elected prime minister of Iran in the 1950s. One of his first step was to free the iranian oil industry from british clutches by nationalising it. For this he was toppled by the UK/USA in the infamous “operation Ajax” and a puppet – Shah of Iran put is his place. Teh shah and his son reza pahelvi ruled iran with an iron fist through their US trained secret police SAVAK.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

    In the end the public had no one to turn to but religion and and they ended up with a theocracy!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Syed 100% true , and it is the same story all over middle east.i strongly recommend the book THE ARABS by eugene rogan, but then again you got to admit that the liberal humanistic mass
    OPEN TO WESTERN CIVILIZATION did never reach a critical mass to spoil the dirty game of WHITE ANGLOSAXONS. India has been virulently anti american in its foreign policy BUT THE MASS had opened its window and so had the Govt to western thought and knowledge. Remember what gandhi said when asked about western civilization ,he said IT IS GOOD THING. Also you can not run away from the fact all the pig head bramhinical RSS inspired regressive ideas that BJP tried to force (like Surya Pranam whatever ****, and astrology as a college course) HAS BEEN VICIOUSLY OPPOSED and perhaps you got to give credit to the scribes ,journalist and the intelligentia who have been able to steer india clear from the hindu version of islamic obscurantism , THE GREATEST PROOF IS THAT IT ADOPTED SECULARISM AS ITS CREED.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    The oil interests and the US Govt toppled and then killed Mosaddeq. Iranian Shias are quite advanced, they are proud of their persian ancestry, and in due course they will self correct. The youth and old (like Ramsaffjani) are for democracy; however th military is aligned with the clerics. US has not helped the process because of sanctions and threats.

    As I mentioned in the last blog, it t indeed was a beautiful sight to see the youngsters of Egypt peacefully demonstrate to bring about the downfall of Mubarek. At a minimum, whether a permanent democracy is established or not, these youngsters showed the world that Muslims are not violent, they are as gadget loving youngsters like most of the young people all over the world, they talked the language of all other youngsters all over the world. I am sure this must have helped many to view Islam in a positive sense after all the hits Islam has taken from the terrorist bombings.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi bhai where there is no america there is no bombing.these bstrds plant all these non-sense whereever they go.in latin america there is muslim majority country.samething happened.every indian want to go muslim country and improve their future.why.my friends from istamboul to jakarta
    write good about place never try to return to india.i was surprised when 2 banias working in jakarta paper factory refused to come back india ,inspite of better offer.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Syed, the hard work behind the Iranian revolution was done by leftists and communists. The mullahs came later and took it away from them. Now the current shia dictatorship in Iran is many times worser than the sha. The sha was only against his political opponents. The current crop of Iranian islamists want your money and your soul.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Dear Mr Ramavtar
    My very valid cricism of Ravi had been aired for him to look at. The boy lacks manners and when caught with his outrageous analyses or plain lies, becomes confrontational and abusive.
    He also appears to be very well versed in the English language so it seems a bit comical to have someone like you defend him.
    For more details pl see my post above. I dont care whether he is hindu or muslim, Pak or Indian- if someone gives any evidence of muslim under educational, under achievement or level of crime in a much higher proportion than in communities of the SAME SOCIO-ECONOMIC level, then he starts foaming at the mouth and uses unparliamentary language like -I will come to Havelock Road Gurudwara and sort you out or saying somethong nasty about Dr Mirza
    Dont believe me, see the last post Modi goodwill hunting.
    Balwinder

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    What evidence.

    Merely suggesting that Somali’s have gnags, does not constitute evidence against their keenness to education.

    The pure fact is that you are unable to construct a logical argument. You mistakenly believe that a string of unrelated facts some how automatically become an argument.

    lets have the evidence again, where the under achievement of Pakistanis, Bangladeshi’s, Somalis’s has been SOLELY attributed to their RELIGION, ISLAM.

    If you can not find the evidence, it is in the post I meade.

    in the 60s and 70s when the Sikh community were at the same level as the Somali Community is today, Sikhs were also massively underachieving.

    You do not know what you are talking about. That is the plain fact.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I will come to Somali Muslims in a second.

    The only common thing about Muslims from various parts of the world always performing miserably (other than in terrorist acts) is Islam. Something in that belief system obviously is pulling down many belonging to that faith. It is a choice of Muslims not to fix that; but foolish to make silly comparisons, such as Irish was like this 50 years ago or Hindus suppressed Muslims from learning etc.

    Now coming to Somali Musllims in USA. – I do not knbow anything about Somali Muslims in UK (I will be labelled as Islamaphobe, my guess is that they are as bad as any other Muslims other than Indian Muslims in education) ..

    There is a large concentration of Somali Muslims in USa, in Minneapolis. The Somalis were given refuge in USA. And now US finds that many Somali Muslims are attacking USA with terrorist acts. The Somali Muslim gangs (Ravi will say there were Hindu gangs and Sikh gangs before Somali Muslims formed gangs) have graduated into terrorism. Shirwin Ahmed, who migrated as a child in 1990, joined Al Shahab and exploded himnself in Somalia. he was only 27 years. Further investigations have identified Muslims – Salah Ahmed, Mustafa Ali, Abdifete Yusuf ……. 34 of them engaged in terrorist activities; of which four have already exploded in Somalia. All these were 17-27 in age, many of them college graduates. One Somali Muslim, Mohamed Sid Omar,a businessman, is arrested in netherlands for financing terrorist activities in US,and is in a Dutch jail. A nineteen year old engineering student, Mohamed Osman Mohemud, was arrested last Christmas in Portland, where he palnned to bomb a large gathering expected there for the tree lighting ceremony.

    Now the Somali Muslims have branched out to girl trafficking. 30 Somali muslims, including a n Imam, were arrested two months ago for interstate trafficking of minor girls (two of them as young as 13) for prostitution. (I can see Ravi saying Catholic priests are no better).

    The terrorists and the girl traffickers were all members of the Abubaker Sadique mosque in minneapolis.

    And dont forget about the young Somali Muslim who tried to kill the 75 year old Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard with an axe.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Now the Somali Muslims have branched out to girl trafficking. 30 Somali muslims, including a n Imam, were arrested two months ago for interstate trafficking of minor girls (two of them as young as 13) for prostitution. (I can see Ravi saying Catholic priests are no better).

    benoy hegde israel is the sex capital of the world..poor girls of of east europe are kidnapped by their agents.about 3 yrs back a russian 3 years old f=girl was kidnapped by them from shelter.in rome they made a show of that girl privately for 20000 dollarper ticket.on stage she was fkd to death.

    why u are singling out somali muslims.indian hindus are are running biggest sex racket of world in and outside india.but i cannot say that all hindus are like this.may be some are like this.
    religion and bussines are two different things.
    but hinbdus are involve in sex racket in far far bigger lave evrywhere in the world.
    this bstrds cartoon maker has right to hurt muslims then muslims have right to hurt him as well.gaand phaand do sale kee.

    Hindus suppressed Muslims from learning etc.

    we never say like this except some high caste hindus 99%of hindus are illeterate that is why india ha not produced any scientist or mathmetician of world scale.

    somalis are very good people victim of zoinist agression.indians are far bigger thieve than them.

    one doctor sharma was caught injecting wrong hepetites injection to 235 of their innocent in america.now in jail with 20 million dollar fine.girl trafficing is common including indians and jews are involved in this at far bigger scale.

    now f-k off bring somewthing new.

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde randi bajee is part of hindu culture women were forced to work in temples and fkd by bhagendi(druggist)andnasedi(drinker)pujaris.

    RajX Reply:

    Haha. Hegde, you have totally figured out our supposedly “liberal Hindu” “ravi” very well. Congratulations.

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    As for my temperament _ I plead guilty as charged. I am intolerant of prats like you. True.

    As for you catching me with OUTRAGEOUS ANALYSIS, well you say so, but never give an instance where what I have said is OUTRAGEOUS. Sad reality is, that you almost every time fail to read any thing any one ever rights here. You ASSUME what they have said and rapidly post an erroneous response without any due regard to what is it that you are trying to communicate.

    Lets look at your manners this is from you “You talk rubbish. A total diaarhoea of words and a constipation of thought.”

    Another example: “A biased ranting individual full of hot air”

    Another Example: “an angry Pakistani or a sick dysfunctional pseudo secularist hindu”

    This is despite the fact that I asked you questions about Gurbani and quoted you with elements of Gurbani, that would have been difficult for any one who is not a Sikh to have quoted.

    YOU SPECTECULARLY IGONRED THESE.

    The following – to me – is a clear proof that you believe that under achievement among Somali Children is SOLELY explained as result of their religion – ISLAM.

    ………”Unfortunately, undereducation is rife in the Somali youth and many have taken to gang and knife crime in a big way. Again the man Ravi is way off the mark. Why the hell he pontificates on things he knows nothing of, trying to minimise the shortcomings and evils in radical muslim societies, God only knows. Ravi, we live here in the UK AND WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING OF…………….”

    This was a response to my ” Children of Somali refugees, though Muslim, are very keen on education,”.

    YOU SINGULARY FAIL TO SAY, HOW what you have said, CONTRADICTS what I have said. This was then picked up by Dr Mishra as a dream bursting GEM. When it is nothing of the kind.

    Your silence on SIKH gangs “Holi Smoke” and “Shere Punjab” was deafening. Your inability to respond to the fact that in 60s and 70s the SIKHS were significant underperformers. Do you think their religion was an element of their under performance.

    So yes I bad mouth on provocation, not ashamed of it, and promise to continue to do so. You are free to ignore my posts.

    You are yourself not a paragon of any virtue, instead you come across as a sycophant.

    Remember where ever there is a RELIGIOUS explanation for your OBSERVATIONS; then there are probably 10 times more explanations that are SECULAR.

    Do not play communal politics, as a sikh, in the long run you will be the looser.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi-

    You stand deserving the criticism Balwinder raised – with your statement” do not play communal politics, as a sikh, in the long run you will be the loser”. That is a blow below the belt, completely opening up your hidden identity.

    Balwinder did not indulge in communal politics. He stated the dismal performance of Muslims including Somali Muslims in UK. He even agreed that Islam may not be the only cause for this backwardness.

    So, are you implying that, as a Sikh, in the long term he will be a loser in India? That Hindus will run over him?

    I have stated thousand times – I am a Christian from Kerala; my ancestors have been here as Christians for almost 2000 years, and before that as Hindus or whtever Hindus were called at taht time. Christians are the richest there, most advanced educationally. Ak Antony and many other congress leaders came from the community. The community produced great leaders like the white/Milk revolution Dr Kurian, the IIM Ahmedabad founder/director Ravi Mathai etc. No Christian in Kerala will say that in the long term they are doomed. It shows your petty mind, and your real colour coming out.

    Or, are you implying that, Britishers will run him out of UK because he is a Sikh? You would have used “as an Indian” If it was an issue of him being run out of UK.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    I will reply to the specific issues you raise.

    I would like you to quote, as I have done, where Balwinder has agreed that Islam is NOT the most important reason for under-achievement of the various Muslim Communities.

    I am not a great supporter of COMMUNAL politics. I will go further and explicitly state that my record here – over the last 6 months or so – has been to provide a counter weight to blatant and illogical communal comments – a common enough currency in this blog. So much so that I am perpetualy regarded as a Muslim, even by you. That is laughable. As I told Binoy, criticising OTHERS is politics, critcising SELF is first step to improvement.

    I do not attack HINDUISM per say, I merely point to issues within Hinduism as way of saying, yes Political Islam has many problems, but then so does Hinduism. Binoy understands this very well, even if he thinks I am wrong and misguided. That is his right. But at least he understands my perspective, even if he does not agree with it.

    So my advise to Balwinder, who is a Sikh, is to not indulge in COMMUNAL politics. This is because it is my FIRM BELIEF, which I have expressed here before, that once the RIGHT WING HINDUS have managed to completely subjugate the Indian Muslim population, then it is only a matter of time when they will try exactly the same tactics on the Indian Sikh population.

    Now if you disagree with this, then that is your privilege. But how that makes me out as a Muslim, as you imply here, has defeated me. However, I do not care.

    Your observation about the status of Christians in Kerala is correct and not ONCE, in the last 6 months, have I contradicted you on this point. You quote me contradicting this point and you will find a personal apology from me. Take up the challenge I am not offering it lightly.

    However, Hindu Right Wing, in the shape of the Sangh Parivar, is not very effective in Kerala. That is the beauty of Kerala. Do you remember some months ago I expressed a wish to go to Kerala and your reply was to do it soon as you were concerned that Keralite Muslims were changing it for worse.

    If British will run any Asians out – which is highly unlikely – then they are not going to ask if one was from a noble religion Hindu/Sikh or the more despicable variety of Islam. They will out any one who is BROWN and BLACK.

    I make no appology for abusing Balwinder. He asked for it.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi-

    Those are “big ifs” –results of imagination going truly wild..

    I referenced to the Christian context mainly to state that Christians do not feel threatened or doomed , they have been getting educated and making money and attaining leadership positions in what you call a Hindu rightwing controlled country.

    Why woul/dshould Sikhs feel threatened, if Christians do not feel threatened? After all Sikhs and Hindus intermarry, there was a tradition of bringing up one child as a Sikh in many north Indian Hindu families…(I am sure you will use the example of Sikh killings after Mrs Indira Gandhis murder)

    Muslims, while they were in power, were the ruthless killers of Sikhs. Guru Gobind’s father Tej Bahadur, and his four children were killed by Muslims. Guru Gobind himself was stabbed so many times by Muslims. An then the several Sikh massacres by Muslims in 1710, 1746, 1762..Chota, bada…

    “Once right wing Hindus have subjugated the Indian Muslims, it is only a question of time when they will try exactly the same thing on Indian Sikhs” – Both absurd and beyond far fetched.

    It is a fact that successive Muslim invasions from bin Quasim to Mughals pillaged and plundereored the land, converted many into Islam. Mughals stayed an built a dynasty, did not take the wealth of the country to foreign places..

    It is a fact that Guru Gobind’s father and four children were killed by Muslims.

    But your theory of subjugation is only an imagination. The right wing Sangh parivar subjugating Muslims, and once that is done, subjugating Sikhs (and by the way not subjugating Christians) is a lunatic figment of imagination gone wild. Even the leaders of Sangh Parivar may find this imagination wild and not worth spending time on!

    As imagination goes, there is more likelihood of Sangh Parivar and Singh Parivar merging..

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Since the jokes on Ravi have left me in a funny mood here is a gem I picked up from an earlier post. Warning it is very black humour, it is a Pakistani voting on the 5 sexiest terrorists.
    http://gulbadan.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/top-5-sexiest-pakistani-terrorists/

    Apologies again

    RajX Reply:

    Haha.Mishra, that list was hilarious. After taking current events into consideration, I believe that salman taseers assassin Qadri deserves a place there. This guy is even getting valentines day gifts from men. He is like a Don Juan who is not straight.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Ravi
    No one said that the sad failure of the large section of Pak or Bdeshi community in UK or other parts of Europe is because of Islam alone.
    You have cleverly evaded the real issue here- that is- “”"”The boy lacks manners and when caught with his outrageous analyses or plain lies, becomes confrontational and abusive.

    For more details pl see my post above. I dont care whether he is hindu or muslim, Pak or Indian- if someone gives any evidence of muslim under educational, under achievement or level of crime in a much higher proportion than in communities of the SAME SOCIO-ECONOMIC level, then he starts foaming at the mouth and uses unparliamentary language like -I will come to Havelock Road Gurudwara and sort you out or saying somethong nasty about Dr Mirza”"”

    The issue here is your temperament, your manners and your language.

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    Egyptians have achieved two of the many steps needed for their empowerment – getting Hosni Mubarek out and having military agree with the general demands. The military has dismisse d the parliament, promised an unrigged election, and commited to working with various groups in establishing a well functioning system.

    However, troubles are many and the eventual outcome suspect. A leaderless revolution is bound to fight across tribal/group lines once presented with the possibility of power. Beneath the calm surface, there are animal spirits lurching. Wahabis will work hard not to have democracy. They were all after the dean of Al Ahzar unibersity when he stated that girls do not have to wear hijabs; that Quran does not prescribe wearing of hijab.
    Wahabi influence on Islamic Brotherhood is unknown.
    ElBaraidi is not accepted as a leader because he never spent much time in Egypt. The generals will put blocks to progress if they fear that army’s powers will be curtailed,.
    The next few months are crucial; a concensus leader may emerge. If so, things will end well. However, if a leader does not bubble up, it will definitely protend to an emerging problem

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    Shoeb well written..a precise and balanced comment on the Egyptian movement..you are absolutely right about the future of a leaderless revolution ..doomed for it natural death.
    let us all hope for the best.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ram, 30 out of 60 comments here are from you. Can you please just espond to the issue rather than vomiting the same sh– all the time? Please be considerate to others. You are not helping Pakistan or Muslims through your stupid rants.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy things are other way around.u know indians and jews are involve in flesh trade ar a very large scale .as bussines.i am indian half my family is brhmn.that is why i know them.why u are singling entire somali community for act of few.most of the problems somalis are facing is due to american and jewish interference.from last 20 yrs they are suffering.somalia has port so world powers are terrorizing them.like lanka.their minor retaliatory acts are connected with religion.america is also hated in latin america.there is no muslim there.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Joker… :)

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Worse than a joker! With people like Ram on theirside, Muslims will remain backward and focused on the past!

    ram autar Reply:

    kurien kya kis kuttey ne kata hai.if anything special tell m.u idot come on blog to speak about muslim terrorism.without any reason.india is under brhmncl terrorism.since these bstrds are caught by police and put inside jail ,there is no terror attck.they were planting the bombs and putting blame on muslims with the help of media.
    u were coming on blog as the advocate of hindu terrorist.dont speak much.come with proofl.otherwise shut up.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar goes Bow-Bow-Bow…doggy style.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    post cut off-
    I have a lot of Pak friends here in UK and they have a lot of yearning for a revolution in Pakistan. They wanted Pakistan to be the next Egypt. Now I hear that Army has taken over in Egypt and the Muslim brotherhood is slowly creaking into life. My biggest worry is -WILL EGYPT BE THE NEXT PAKISTAN??

    I note the abusive troll RAVI has evaded my real question. For details pl see my 2 posts above. I had said-
    ————- “”””The boy lacks manners and when caught with his outrageous analyses or plain lies, becomes confrontational and abusive.

    I dont care whether Ravi is hindu or muslim, Pak or Indian- if someone gives any evidence of muslim under educational, under achievement or level of crime in a much higher proportion than in communities of the SAME SOCIO-ECONOMIC level, then he starts foaming at the mouth and uses unparliamentary language like -I will come to Havelock Road Gurudwara and sort you out or saying somethong nasty about Dr Mirza”””————–

    The issue RAVI here is your temperament, your manners and your language. Ravi can answer this while I would like the saner commentators here to comment on my statement- will Pakistan be the next Egypt , or will ( shudder, shudder) Egypt be the next Pakistan

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Balwinder,

    Muslim Brotherhood has renounced terrorism;. Inn fact its star student, Al Sawhari has named it a high priority attack target of Al Queda because they are moving into a democratic way to deal with Egypt issues.

    The military,a t least for now, is a caretaker. It seems they are working with various groups to organize elections etc. They have agreed to most of the demands. I believe the only thing outstanding is the release of political prisoners, and removing the emergency decree.

    But you are right, that miliary potentially can abuse the system and fool the movement people. Then it will be Pakistan all over.

    Let us hope and pray that the dreams of those idealistic youngsters will be achieved, and Egypt will hopefully be the shining light for most of the countries in that region.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi Al Sawhari is hated by general muslims more than bush.both were friends .then seprated for personal reasons put the muslims in trouble.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Shan,
    In a secular state there is absolutely no rationale for giving state funding to religious schools. I think the current govt in UK would stop the practise very soon.
    As regards Deoband in India, to my knowledge, their website does not have any kafir hating messages. Deoband in the current Indian context can be faulted for promoting extreme conservatism and obscurantism and producing students ill suited to the world outside.

    reg. life in the west, from my experience I feel these countries are good when one is at a productive age and able to work. Life for retirees is lonely to say the least.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    dont care whether Ravi is hindu or muslim, Pak or Indian- if someone gives any evidence of muslim under educational, under achievement or level of crime in a much higher proportion than in communities

    balwinder there is only one race,punjabi in india which is criminal by nature.irrespective of hindu muslim or sikh ,they are criminal.pakistanis are uneducated and due anti muslim propaganda more prone to small crime.but hindu punjabi and sikh do the crime at higher and hurt the innocent in far bigger way.citigroup scam u have heard somebody puri was involved.in major delhi scams suri was involved.in bomb planting bussines all brhmns highly educated were involved.because of punjabis delhi has become RAPE CAPITAL OF THE world.most of the scam operators are highly educated punjabi(owner of five evil)illerate muslims do small thing like pickpocketing while educated punjabi is most dangerous man in the world.like brhmns.pathans are stupids not criminal.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Normally I avoid getting into x vs y comments, but the dig by Rajeev on Ravi just cracked me up- …..Talibani…You are still around..When have they started providing Net in Gitmo?….

    Brilliant.
    Sorry Ravi, your fan club just keeps on growing.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Misraji,
    This guy is perfect example of nuts who should be reported to FBI.

    He is among us a normal person but deep inside he is another Faisal (who tried to bomb Time Square).

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mishra jee aap kis shahar ke rahne wale hain main bhee up se hoon.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    See how easy it is to get things wrong.

    Growing fan club, hardly.

    He has been at it for a while.

    This is just a sample:

    Rajeev Reply:
    January 28th, 2011 at 12:05 am
    Shan,
    Now do you believe me that this RAVI guy is Jihadi?

    Rajeev Reply:
    December 23rd, 2010 at 10:48 pm
    Ravi,
    So you went to Ajmal Khan LeT Sakha…Thanks for clarification.

    Rajeev Reply:
    December 23rd, 2010 at 10:53 pm
    Vinay,
    Ravi and Ram Autar hold identical views on Kasab and Afzal. One is literate muslim and other the illiterate one but when it comes to terror both are united.

    So Dr Mishra, no growth here, as you can see he has been a fan for a long time.

    I hope this has widened your smile till it became a grin.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ravi bhai yeh rajeev kis bhosde kee aulad hai main nahi samjh paya.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Samajh mein kaise ayega..teri maa ka bhosda jo maar raha hun mein..kabhi kabhi…

  • Binoy Hegde

    NYTimes on Egypt:

    “they fused their secular expertise in social networks with a discipline culled from religious movements and combined the energy of soccer fans with the sophistication of surgeons and psychiatrists. Breaking free from older veterans of the Arab political opposition, they relied on tactics of non-violent resistance channeled from an American scholar through a Serbian youth brigade – but also on marketing tactics borrowe from Silicon Valley ……………The protestors -trying to stay true to the lessons they had learned from Gandhi, MArtin Luther King, and Gene Sharp -………” ,

    It is a proud moment for all, and especially for Indians, since these Egyptians fought adopting Mahathma Gandhi’s principles of non-violence.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Well said.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    If Egyptians are following Indian (not Mahatma) path of non-violence, it means they are rejecting Islamic path of violence.
    It’s a welcome sign but don’t bet on it.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    are u talking of seargent major MKGHANDHI,of rascist south african forces hating blacks later converted in to mahatama by british occupiers to cheat indian and world.till seargent major he drinker smoker beef eater.in part b became mahatama who will sleep naked with his follower to control himself.established brhmnsm in india.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Are you talking about Mohammad who justified slavery?

    RajX Reply:

    Haha..nice angle.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Ravi, before you start turning blue with hypoxia, that was a joke. In fact 2 jokes. Actually make it three for I need to include Rajeev’s dig above.
    Good night

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra.

    Have a look, the yolk is on you.

    Good bye

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    mishra,hegde and balwinder,u are talking about somalis ,ha ha ha, The world’s most corrupt people have suddenly started talking, writing and reading about corruption. What is this wonder?

    No. No. There is nothing to be shocked about an old woman talking about chastity. This sudden front-paging of corruption stories is aimed at assuring and applying balm on the hurt mind of the victims of corruption to deceive us. Suddenly the old woman is talking of chastity.

    Never believe these rascals.

    Remember corruption is the other word for Brahminism. Nothing can be done about it. Brahminism is born in corruption. Money corruption is the smallest portion of the over-all world of this corruption.

    Sai Baba’s protective umbrella

    Look at the Satya Sai Baba blessing all the notorious corrupt rascals at Puttaparti recently on his birthday. The “Khatri Sick” PM and Karnataka’s notoriously corrupt CM, Yeddyurappa, were there. Because they all know that this Ba Ba Black Sheep protects all the corrupt rascals. He is keeping the money of all such rascals.

    We assure you we can’t bring down the level of corruption (we mean the money corruption), even by a centimeter as long as we live with this monster called Brahminism.

    The Supreme Court itself said on Nov.26, 2010 that Allahabad High Court judges are corrupt (TOI Nov.27, 2010). An ex-Union Law Minister has named the corrupt Supreme Court judges.

    “Khatri Sick” PM & Spectrum scam

    In the Bombay Adarsha Housing scam, Army, Navy and Air Force chiefs were named.

    In the Spectrum Scam, in which a poor Dalit Minister’s head was cut, reports say the “Khatri Sick” himself is involved.

    Media corruption

    Nira Radia, the glamorous big business PRO in Delhi, has exposed the media corruption about which DV has been shouting all these years.

    The media men, being mostly Brahminists, are the most corrupt.

    Their corruption was exposed in the “paid news” for which the Times is the market leader. The media, however, suppressed the news. But it is bound to come out because one corrupt rascal is jealous of the other corrupt rascal who has made more money and has a bigger clout.

    But most of the fellows involved in this neck-deep corruption are the Aryan upper caste Big Brothers (15%) who alone are the rulers.

    The penniless SC/ST/BCs and Muslim (younger brothers) naturally would like to imitate their Big Brahminical Brothers. Imitating the elders is a natural instinct.

    Laxmi not Saraswati worshipped

    Brahminists glamourise wealth. Laxmi is worshipped. Saraswati dumped into debris. The so-called goddess of learning is killed in cold blood.

    Look at the TOI giving a front-page honour to Ambani’s new mansion in Bombay. By reading this story every young man would like to possess such a mansion. He would make money — beg, borrow, or steal. And finally get caught.

    But nothing will happen to the Ambanis. They have direct link with the highest in the country.

    Brahminism is spreading corruption — money, moral, intellectual and even mental. The Brahminists are only money corrupt. But they are inflicting moral and mental corruption on our people.

    As long as we don’t get rid of Brahminism, SC/ST/BCs and Muslim/Christian/Sikhs (the Bahujan Samaj 85%), cannot free themselves from money, moral, intellectual and mental corruption.

    .

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dr Mishra

    Aap ke naam ek gazal paish pharmata hoon. Abhi abhi jo teen aur chaar posts me jo guft o goo hoi hai usi mauzo par Mirza AasadUllah Khan Ghalib Dehlvi ne yeh gazal likhi thi.

    Samaj na aye to aapne Pakistani dost se is ka tarjuman karwa lena.

    Koi umeed bar nahi aati,
    Koi surat nazar nahi aati

    Maut ka ek din moiyan hai,
    Neend kyon raat bhar nahi aati

    Aage aati thi haal-e-dil par ha(n)si,
    Ab kisi baat par nahi aati

    Hai kuch aisi hi baat, ke chup hoon
    Warna kya baat kar nahi aati

    Hun wahan jahan se hum ko bhi
    Kuch hamari khabar nahi aati

    Marte hai aarzoo mein marne ki
    Maut aati hai, par nahi aati

    Kabe kis muh se jaaoge ghalib
    Sharm tum ko magar nahi aati

    Ghalib ne yeh bhi kaha hai….Aadmi ko maiyassar nahin Insan hona. Dekh lijiaye kaise Admi or Insan meing pharak dala hai. Umeed hai ki appko yeh samajh aa jaye gi.

    Namashkar Mishra Ji

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    kashi kis mukh se jao fge daaboo(ghalib)
    lajja tumko tanik nahin aati.

    unke dekhe se jo ajati hai mukh par shobha
    woh samajhte hai ki roghee ki dasha uttam hai.

    translated by pundit ram autar dixit

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Dare I make an outrageous comparison- Mubarak and KPS Gill. Or even Fujimori of Peru. Iron men all, and all came undone. Although not so much Gill maybe.
    We needed them to do our dirty work- to be tough in an anarchic land and clamp down on crime and religious fundamentalism. Then they get deposed and no one says thank you. Thank you for the stability of the last 10-30 years.
    India used to get 2 million tourists in 1990, now it gets 6. Egypt, a much smaller country, has rolled in billions of dollars on 8 million tourists a year, one of its biggest industries. And yet the Islamists almost derailed it- murderous attacks on tourists at least 30 times, I recall in the last 15 years.

    Dont know much about the wrongs Hosni did, and I am sure they were legion. Today I am remembering the rights he did which has allowed me to go scuba diving several times to Sharm. el Sheikh.

    Elections were not fair, they say. Bah, I say, first I want stability. Like Lee Kuan Yew gave to Singapore. I want KPS, Fujimori, Sardar Patel, Hosni, Lee Kuan Yew- I want these men of steel to rule India for 20 years. Wake me up after that and I will have democracy.
    A slightly pensive Dr Mishra, nursing a glass of wine

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mishra jee try to understand

    jis khet se dahkhan(peasant)ko mayyasar na ho roti,
    us khet ke har goshey gandum ko jala do.

    egytians are working for 300 dollars a month in gulf and saudia.while hosni mubarak 96 billion dollars in swiss banks.his friend mohd alla is worth 80 billion dollars.tourism money was also swallowed by this mafia.they were3 gas to israel woth 3 billion dollars per year while egypt was getting 170 million dollars only.remaining this junta will eat.poor man ka bhagwan hee hota.now dubai ecomy will start booming again as 20 planes full nof cash and gold has landed here in last 2 da.this is only fraction hosni mubarak looted money from egypt.islamist will kick americans and europeans out of their country and replace them with india and other asian countries..they are afraid of their accounts being frozen.

    muslim brotherhood will good for india and indians.sudan is under islamic laws.they have all their important contracts to indian companies instead of british and american oil joints.rise of islamic forces means most of their contracts will go to india.millions of indians will get good jobs and bussines houses will flourish.that is why their media is crying islam islam.it is all politics.

    raj Reply:

    muslim brotherhood will good for india and indians, — no way

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
    In the group’s belief, the Quran and Sunnah constitute a perfect way of life and social and political organization that God has set out for man. Islamic governments must be based on this system and eventually unified in a Caliphate.
    — people ruled by god’s book is totally unacceptable today. and caliphate ????

    sudan is under islamic law
    — south sudan does not want to live with islamic northern sudan, and they already got their independence.

    they have all their important contracts to indian companies instead of british and american oil joints.rise of islamic forces means most of their contracts will go to india.
    — do you know there is a country called china, which has invested millions in sudan & other african countries. china is the new imperial force this century in africa

    wait & see how imperial china handles islamist….

    ram autar Reply:

    south sudan does not want to live with islamic northern sudan, and they already got their independence

    this is their domestic problem.now south is seprated and both are happy.

    do you know there is a country called china, which has invested millions in sudan & other african countries. china is the new imperial force this century in africa.

    india should use same policy people of area respect india more than china.they go mosque or church is none of our bussines.

    the group’s belief, the Quran and Sunnah constitute a perfect way of life and social and political organization that God has set out for man. Islamic governments must be based on this system and eventually unified in a Caliphate

    they is imagination.caliphate was finished and defeated by saudi arabia.a staunch muslim country.turkey was first country to recognize israel.when it comes to economic interest brother kill brother.

    raj Reply:

    his is their domestic problem.now south is seprated and both are happy.

    — its may be their domestic problem , but you said islamic laws as superior & can create best society. but christian south sudan did not see any thing like that happening, so they separated.
    — again islamist to be blamed,

    raj Reply:

    islamist will kick americans and europeans out of their country and replace them with india and other asian countries.
    —- islamist are bunch of religious terrorist. lets see what happens to them after kicking out usa & eurpoeans. they will be replaced by new boss china which will throw money for oil & other resources. chinas response to these guys will be worse than usa.
    — islamist have kashmir flag to avoid india & india is out of this race. but kaffir doctors will be used to cure beleivers with kaffir/usa/jews technology & medicine.

    ram autar Reply:

    —- islamist are bunch of religious terrorist

    GIVE AN EXAMPLE.IN AFGHANISTAN THEY ARE ACTING AS FREEDOM FIGHTERS.

    but kaffir doctors will be used to cure beleivers with kaffir/usa/jews technology & medicine.

    KASHMIRI FIGHTERS NOT AGAINST HINDUS.THEY WANT ECONOMIC FREEDOM UNDER INDIAN FLAG.INDIA SHOULD ALLOW THEM.they never killed any hindu.jafmohan brought them to jammu.to avoid them from pain of round the clock curfew.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Another gem from kerala-
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/may/09rajeev.htm
    Moplah Rebellion, Part II: Hindus massacred on Maraad Beach

    May 09, 2003

    The reported facts about the incident in Maraad, Kozhikode, Kerala, are as follows.

    A group of Hindu fishermen sitting on the beach near a temple is attacked suddenly, without provocation or warning, by a mob of Muslims armed with swords. After a chaotic ten minutes, nine people are dead or bleeding to death on the beach. Many are seriously wounded. The attackers vanish into the night.
    A cache of swords and other sharp weapons, including blood-stained ones, as well as powerful country bombs is recovered from a mosque in the vicinity.
    Various politicians make soothing noises, 66 persons have been arrested in connection with the crime. A judicial inquiry has been instituted.
    The dead are: Gopalan, Chandran, Santosh, Madhavan, Asghar, Dasan, Pushparaj, Krishnan, and Prajeesh. One of them had been married for just five days.
    I am basing this analysis on reports in the Malayalam media (eg: http://www.keralakaumudi.com). I find the local media to be far more accurate and less prejudiced than the English language media in most cases.

    Consider the circumstances: the attack happened on a Friday, and it was directed at those sitting near a Hindu temple. First, almost all Muslim-initiated riots in India take place on Fridays, after the faithful have heard sermons in the local mosque.

    Second, killing Hindus near a Hindu temple is guaranteed to be offensive; if there is any chance of a communal riot developing, this is an excellent way of triggering it.

    This was a mini-Godhra: a murderous attack on Hindus. I have no idea who was behind it, perhaps Pakistanis, or perhaps it was merely local Moplah Muslims. After all, the Moplahs of Malabar did not need any Pakistani inspiration when they launched into the terrible riots of 1921 (the Moplah Rebellion) when they, without provocation, murdered, raped, and forcibly converted thousands of Hindus, just because distant Turkey had abolished the Caliphate.

    What was the objective this time? Possibly to create a communal riot along the lines of what happened in Gujarat in the wake of the Godhra massacre. Perhaps to emphasise that in Muslim-dominated Malabar, as in Bangladesh and Kashmir, it is just fine to murder Hindus. The perpetrators — whoever they are — are confident that there will be no consequences.

    What is likely to happen? Not much. Frightened Hindus will move some place safer, and one more piece of real estate will become dar-ul Islam, land of Muslims. This has been happening in other parts of Malabar, for example Muslim-majority Malappuram district, where Hindus are leaving for less dangerous places. Yes, the famed Nehruvian Stalinist ’secularism’ in action, yet again.

    Hindus in Kerala have declined in numbers, and this is what happens to non-Muslims when the Muslim population reaches a critical mass: decimation. When Semitic religions hold sway, they brutalise minorities. We have the examples of Muslim intolerance in Jammu & Kashmir and Christian intolerance in the Northeast. Hindus have a simple choice: convert, die or flee. And Kerala’s Hindus are running out of places to flee to. We may end up in squalid refugee camps like the Pandits.

    I have observed over the years the changes in Islam in Kerala. When I was a child, the Muslims I knew were relatively non-observant; the men sported no beards or skullcaps, the women wore saris and they merely drew the pallu demurely over their heads. Today, in Malabar there are large numbers of bearded men with skullcaps and women in all-enveloping black burqas. Astonishingly, even in southern Kerala, I have seen billboards advertising ‘burqa fashions.’

    I have also watched the growth of mosques in Kerala. In one stretch of the national highway between Kollam and Trivandrum, there are five huge mosques within the space of just one mile, and all but one have come up in the recent past, maybe ten years. You see scores of young boys with skullcaps and scores of little girls with headscarves going to the local madrassa, I imagine.

    Much has happened in Kerala to bring these changes about. One is that the fragmented politics of Kerala has enabled smallish groups to wield disproportionate influence. As an example, various governments in Kerala, dependent on the support of the Muslim League, have allocated tracts of public land to it: startlingly, right in the middle of the famous Kovalam beach, there is now a large mosque on what was public property.

    Furthermore, enormous amounts of Saudi and other Muslim fundamentalist money have apparently come into Kerala. A banker I know told me of crores of rupees in transfers for instance to the Guruvayoor area (which, despite the Krishna temple, is heavily Muslim). He told me that nationalised banks in India are willing to provide Islamic banking to large customers: that is, they happily pay them no interest according to Islamic law, and are therefore quite content to ask no inconvenient questions.

    These inward flows have resulted in all these real-estate acquisitions and the radicalisation of Kerala’s Muslims. They otherwise have no particular reason to feel discriminated against or oppressed, for they have had more than their fair share of jobs, opportunities and other entitlements. Kerala’s Muslims certainly live better than Muslims in Pakistan, and they have done well for themselves. There are plenty of well-educated and well-employed Muslim doctors, engineers, IAS officers, lawyers, writers, teachers, etc.

    If these educated and privileged Muslims turn so violently against their Hindu neighbours, there is no hope for Hindu-Muslim amity anywhere else in India. The two-nation theory has won, and Jinnah was right.

    For Kerala has always treated Muslims well, and it is indeed God’s own country for them. From pre-Islamic times, Arabs came to Kerala to trade, their dhows following the monsoon winds across the Arabian Sea. Islam first came to India — and that too, peacefully — to Kerala, where the first mosque in India, the Cheraman mosque, apparently built in the 7th or 8th century CE, stands at the great old port of Kodungalloor (the Roman Muziris).

    Muslims came as sailors, married local women and stayed on: the very word ‘Moplah’ means ’son-in-law.’ The Zamorin of Calicut had Muslims in his navy, including the famous commander Kunjali Marikkar. But most Muslims in Kerala have no Arab blood, and they are the descendents of Hindus forcibly converted during Tipu Sultan’s invasion of Malabar. This alleged freedom-fighter was a fearsome jihadi: relatives of mine have family histories of fleeing from Malabar to the princely state of Cochin to avoid him. Even today ‘Tipu’s padayottam’ (march) is remembered in the racial memory of Kerala Hindus as a catastrophe spoken of in hushed tones.

    Yet, relations have generally been good between Hindus and Muslims in Kerala. So much so that at what might be the most important temple in Kerala, Sabarimala, pilgrims visit the patron deity Lord Ayyappan after paying obeisance at the shrine of his friend, the Muslim Vavar. On one of my pilgrimages to Sabarimala, I met a Muslim who was making the pilgrimage up that steep hill with his Hindu friends.

    And Vaikom Mohammed Basheer was one of the most beloved Malayalam writers of the last one hundred years.

    With all this, a Maraad happens. The only plausible reason for Muslim violence is sheer religious bigotry, an unreasoning jihad. It is difficult to deal with this through reason.

    I wonder what the world’s reaction would have been if the situation were reversed and a Hindu mob had killed nine Muslims in front of a mosque. Surely Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai would not have been thunderously silent: they would have badgered the National Human Rights Commission. The Washington Post and The New York Times, not to mention The Times of India, The Hindustan Times, The Indian Express and the Hindu, would have indulged in en masse breastbeating about the end of civilisation in India.

    But I bet, gentle reader, that this is the first time you have heard of the Maraad massacre. This I call blatant prejudice and double-standards on the part of the media. Where is the outrage? Where are the cries for justice?

    Furthermore, if by some miracle, Muslim perpetrators in Maraad are brought to book, Nayar and Bidwai will bestir themselves to defend them, along with SAHMAT, Teesta Setalvad, and Shabana Azmi. I wonder why it isn’t clear to them that the human rights of the outlaw and the terrorist are not greater than the human rights of the ordinary citizen.

    But I forget, Hindus are expendable. Hindus were expendable in Malabar during the Moplah Rebellion, part I; they were expendable in Hyderabad when Razakars (armed Muslim men) went on the warpath around the time of Partition. The Razakars were quelled with overwhelming force by the Indian Army.

    It appears that Muslim terrorism can only be averted by brute force: appeasement and turning the other cheek do not work. The only way to prevent more Godhras is to keep Muslim terrorists in check. The question is, who dares bell the cat? If not the government, then vigilantes will take over; which is what happened in Gujarat, after all.

    India needs to put down its home-grown terrorists with force, and it needs to help Pakistanis feel some pain through substantial covert action. If Indian counter-terrorism blows up a few important Pakistanis, or engineers riots against the imperial Punjabis, their taste for adventurism will diminish. Otherwise, these poor Hindus of Maraad would have died in vain, butchered in front of their place of worship.

  • shan

    First a polite request , would Ravi and his Judwa Ran Autar ,take some time off perhaps till zia’s next blog , and let rest of us do some seroius exchange of thoughts.
    @syed, L mirza , shoebK(who are my rational soulmates)
    There was fascinating programme on chanel 4 today , called DESPATCHES. it is about a two year secret camera led investigation into the madrassah in UK (in UK they call it supplementary school , and gets state funding).I didn’t realise there are 1400(yes you have read it correct) of them ,they are all held after school hrs and weekends . Now I am not mishra who basically revels in islam bashing , infact he is basically true to his caste character. I am a rational humanist , AND I AM PAINED BY WHAT I SAW. These scums (teachers ) are telling these 10-13 yr kids , Hindus are sub human being , they drink cow piss , they have no brain , anybody who does not have a fist full of beard is NOT MUSLIM, and you should avoid them , infact you should avoid all contact with non muslims.not only that children were beaten and kicked. NOW THIS IS VERY SAD for the future of these children. It is like telling YOU COME FROM A HOT COUNTRY AND SHOULD NOT WEAR WOOLLEN GARMENTS. well this is a prescription for hypothermia . as it is MUSLIMS MAKE 7% OF PRISON POPULATION(excluding terrorism offences) theymake only 3% of the population.Now if these kids eventually unprepared for job market end up in prison who is to blame those SOB’s.I tell you you guys are better off in India. This has ramification . In itself UK has lot of problem , and is always looking for a scapegoat to explain their RELATIVE decline. So these gives them armament to justify their already massive prejudice against NON WHITE population.I have a flat in Calcutta , and I was thinking of selling it off , I am having second thoughts now. In the programme it said THE MADRASSAH ARE ALL INSPIRED BY DEOBANDI SCHOOLIN INDIA. Apparently their(Indian deobandi HQ) web site is also full of kaffir hating message. IT IS STRANGE ARUNDHUTI ROY et al had been utterly oblivious to it , SO HAS ZIA .There were other muslims in the programme who said this is RACISM , one said “I have to fight this every day”. I will be eagerly awaiting for you guys to give your opinion.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Shan

    Zia did a blog on Deoband School – how pristine it was, how far removed from terrorism it is etc etc. And he covered its curriculum .. only one general science course when you finish the plus 2 grade.

    The good thing, if there is one, is trhat the Inidan Deoband school has not produced any terrorists, compared to the breeding ground of Pakistani Deobands.

    Well, the issue rests solely with Muslim parents. Do they take care of their childtren’s education and well being, or in the name of religion, do they outsource to illiterate (most of them are illiterate) Mullahs? It looks like the already backward Muslims of UK (dialogue between Ravi and Dr Misra indicated the low standards of Muslim students in UK) will regress further backward d ue to these Madrasii or whatever they are. The poor will become poorer; the disadvantaged will become more marginal, all perpetuated by the people who are suppsoed to be better and caring than the others!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    As soon as this semi-trained butcher becomes SERIOUS. I promise to leave the blog

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This Ravi is a pakistani thug who is in the company of misguided sikhs who call themselves Khalistani…Dhakkan gang..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    aaj do pathan mile the ,kafir launda dhoodh rahe the maine tumahara naam de diya hai ,baad mein jihad par jaenge.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Tu Pathan ke saath kya kar raha tha…bund mara raha tha kya..

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    in fact I had posted it on the last blog-
    ————————————————————————-

    ,,,,,Dispatches is a good investigative programme on British TV.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356361/Shame-Britains-Muslim-schools-Secret-filming-shows-pupils-beaten.html

    ……………………………..
    Welcome to one of Britain’s most influential Islamic faith schools, one of at least 2,000 such schools in Britain. They represent a growing, parallel education system. The school is the Darul Uloom Islamic High School in Birmingham, an oversubscribed independent secondary school

    …..We recorded a number of speakers giving deeply disturbing talks about Jews, Christians….

    …..We found children as young as 11 learning that Hindus have ‘no intellect’…And we came across pupils being told that the ‘disbelievers’ are ‘the worst creatures’ and that Muslims who adopt non-Muslim ways, such as shaving, dancing, listening to music and – in the case of women – removing their headscarves, would be tortured with a forked iron rod in the afterlife

    ….We soon realised that the beatings were routine. The behaviour of the boys, the way they flinched, indicated that they were long-accustomed to being hit and kicked as they studied.
    ———————————————–
    95% OF MY MUSLIM PATIENTS SEND THEIR CHILDREN to mosques for learning Arabic, Quran and Islamiyat for anywhere between 4-8 hours per week after school

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Sorry, forgot to elaborate on my last statement. Here in UK, just like anywhere in the west, entry into University is on the basis of an interview. I am on the panel for Leeds medical school. We allot maybe 25 % of marks for extra curricular activities, eg sports, music, ballet etc.
    Not just participation but grades as well. Everything here is graded- eg my daughter has done grade 5 in violin. Or has done level 5 swimming lessons.
    Or there is participation in the famous Duke of Edinburgh schemes for teenagers. this gives an opprtunity to mix with the majority white population and become knowledgable of thier culture.
    When my muslim patients here in Yorkshire keep there kids away from all this, they weaken their CVs mortally.
    Not to mention that this new muslim habit of muslim boys sporting long flowing beards without moustaches looks unmattractive.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I have a violin.

    I am trying to learn Paganini’s Caprice no 24 in A minor.

    As soon as I have mastered this, I will be back.

    Until then adieu

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    “liberal hindu”, Don’t let your beard get caught in the strings.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    I am not a great fan of Shan, but his latest offering had me in splits- “…..First a polite request , would Ravi and his Judwa Ran Autar ,take some time off perhaps till zia’s next blog , and let rest of us do some seroius exchange of thoughts.
    @syed, L mirza , shoebK(who are my rational soulmates)…..”

    Priceless, the bit about the judwa. These jokes on Ravi are coming fast and furious

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Mohamed ElBaradi, in an interview about Egypt stated “if we get Egypt right, it could be the best medicine to get rid of radicalism” .

    The extraordinary civic achievement Egyptians accomplished in building the coalition that ousted Mubarek, the professioanlism of Egyptian army all points to that the country has what it takes to build a decent representative society.

    Lot, if not all , the stereotypes associated with “Arabs’, “Muslims” will disappear if this is achieved.

    Let us hope 2/11 begins the process to end the disruptive forces unleashed by 9/11. Let us hope Egypt flourishes fulfilling the aspirations of its young people. We cannot have another Mohamed Atta, angry at his country and its “protectors” walking the streets of Cairo. A good ending in Egypt will reduce the probabilities of future Mohamed Atats springing up.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    The coverage by the right wing Fox News here in the US has been negative.

    They have been talking about Islamic Brotherhood and how the Brotherhood will make Egypt a theocratic society.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    they will not convert india or america or bloody zoinist fox news into islamic theocratic state so why so much weeping.

    main preoccupation of owners of fox news and brhmns of india is eating, entertainment, sex (kamasutra), and cheating. A life of perpetual pleasure and leisure.this will not be disturbed ,then why so much worry.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Yeah. Tell that to the “roman Brahmin” Sonia and the “IMF Brahmin” manmohan Singh who rule us.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    What a difference 24 hours makes. Yesterday I was angry with Ravi for making personal abuse at me today I am dying of laughter at the jokes at his expense. Keep it up guys, I know it is a bit cruel but Ravi desrves it.
    Tell you what I am going to do a ramavtar cutand paste for all of you to enjoy-
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Rajeev

    Talibani…You are still around..When have they started providing Net in Gitmo?
    ————————————
    D Mishra, UK says:

    Normally I avoid getting into x vs y comments, but the dig by Rajeev on Ravi just cracked me up- …..Talibani…You are still around..When have they started providing Net in Gitmo?….

    Brilliant.
    Sorry Ravi, your fan club just keeps on growing.
    ——————————–
    Ravi Reply:
    !
    ——————
    D Mishra, UK says:

    Also seem to have missed that bit of Ravi threatening to beat up Balwinder in his own gurdwara. Hilarious, this blog is getting entertaining at last.

    Er, Ravi sure you want to take on the surd on his home turf? Let me know when you are going, I will stand with an ambulance outside and pray to allah for your soul.
    Brilliant, Sir
    ——————
    Ravi Reply:
    Dr Mishra

    The fun is in you believing that I am a Muslim, and me knowing that I am not.
    ——————————–
    D Mishra, UK Reply:
    Ravi, I KNOW you are a hindu. The bit about waiting for you outside Balwinders gurudwara and praying to allah was a joke. Sorry you missed it.
    Sure, maybe a bit of black humour.
    ————————————-
    shan says:
    First a polite request , would Ravi and his Judwa Ran Autar ,take some time off perhaps till zia’s next blog , and let rest of us do some seroius exchange of thoughts.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    priceless guys, Rajeev, Dr Misra and Shan, keep it coming

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    LAUGHTER THE BEST MEDICINE – PARTICULARLY AT THE COST OF OTHERS.

    Here are some one’s I selected to compliment those provided by Dr Mishra and Balwinder.

    BALWINDER – The full term abortion & a congenital sycophant.
    ___________________
    Shan said :- “@Sandhu , a classical sikh response , as I mentioned before they are ahead of all the immigrants in LICKING.
    ____________________________
    Ram Autar :- “ravi kya sikh itnne hee idiot hote hain.”
    _______________________________________
    Ram Autar :- “ravi ,villian is beaten at end.just wait.“
    ______________________________________________
    Ravi :- “The day Balwinder – the Langar fed nincompoop – can puncture my dream world has not been calenderised yet.
    ____________________________________________
    Ravi:- “It is just your own personal communal haltered and your predilection to sycophancy that deludes you to think so.
    ________________________________________
    Ravi;- “But you calling yourself neutral, now that must be a joke.
    _______________________________________
    Ram Autar;- sikhs are missed in pakistan ,as now they have to import jokes as well.
    ______________________________________

    Balwinder :- Mr Mirza, thank you for your lovely comment about Gandhi. ramavtar is a Pakistani or a very dysfunctional Indian who does these bizarre mile long cut and pastes. Most of us here treat him as a bit of harmless fun, a bit of light relief. Pl do not get into the trap of replying to him- for he will bombard you back with mindless inane posts.

    By the way, I have enjoyed yr comments on other posts, keep them coming.

    Puke, Puke, Puke, pure sycophancy
    _______________________________________________________________________________
    Dr Mishra – The GOB-SHITE & A SELF APPOINTED PILLOCK OF THE SOCIETY.

    Ravi ;- I hope this has widened your smile till it became a grin.
    ________________________________________
    Ravi:- If you were the A&E Doctor, I’d choose to die. That way it would have been my choice rather than your mistake.
    _______________________________________

    Ravi:- Have a look, the yolk is on you.

    _________________________________________
    Shan :- “panditji(dr Dick Mishra),”
    _________________________________________
    Dr Mishra:- “Thank you Ravi for posting this link. I will read it and will read all available sources on the Godhra / Gujrat tragedy.” He has spectaculary proved that he does not read. He scans and sees what he expects to see.
    _________________________________________

    Shan:- Mishraji, you are living in a cloud cuckoo land, if you think EDL is only interested in muslim

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    balwinder shan misra rajeev u great pricelss guys, entire worid is running because of genius like u people..

    i aks one question,give me the name one road which fulfils international standards in india.in 64 yrs of
    brhmncl take over of india ,capital delhi dont have water,electricity security employment,and sewage system.when delhi was international city ,kualampur was village.now no match.
    only boasting cannot change ur corrupt face..u are comparing urslf with somalis and rwandan.are u not no1.stupids.in delhi and mumbai i did not found a good mall to compare with basudhara city mall dhakha.forget the the malls in dubai/kualampur or cairo.
    almost the last day of baghdad fall power was intact in the city.which remain absent in normal days in delhi.evryday scam.as salvation is iindiviual not general.everybody is busy in looting the nation like hungry rats and taking punysa by giving part of loot to their bhagwans.

    but hegde cannot sleep because 30 muslim somalis are involve in women trade.while nepalis in delhi are not leaving any of their girl.mare dar ke so nahin rahein hain kee egpyt mein brotherhood ajaegee.

    delhi i avoid to go u know why ,i cannot see the bad condition of street dogs over there.respect of cow something i like in india i feed them as much i can during my stay but this kindness should be extended to all animals.
    before hurting others all of u learn to help others.balwinder bhai jitna punjabion ne india ko choona lagaya hai kisi ne nahi.semi educated muslim punjabis do petty crime u people have swallowed entire india.
    hence the teaching of gurunank or hindu shastra` or holy quran or bible is far better than bloody zoinist secularism.let us follow and be united to build strong india and defeat china.who will destroy us if not contained.bye.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Gopi thomas , L Mirza , Syed , SheobK , raju kurien .
    As it happens there is PLENTY TO WORRY ABOUT INDIAN BRANCH OF ISLAMIC BROTHERHOOD, EGYPT CAN WAIT.here is a cut and paste from the website of Indian Deobandi Dar Ul uloom
    SO MUCH FOR NATIONALINTEGRATION
    Dear Sir, When I was 20 yrs. old I went to picnic with my college friends, they were went to temple, I also went, they have did darshan/pooja, i have not done the pooja/darshan, as they all were doing, i have also done, I have just put my hand on railing of statue/idol and then put my hand on my chest not with real heart. Then i was really forgoton this, during this period I have made many times tuaba, but I have not mentioned above which i have did in temple in my tauba becasue i have forgot it, and during this period i have recitid many time Kalima, when i becam 25 yrs i was married, but before my marriage Imam Saheb has recited me five Kalima, Imam-e-mujmal and imam-e-mufassal, then my marriage was done and Khutba was done. Before some time I was realized that O Allah I was went in temple and I have done this But not realy heart. I request you to plz guide me proper.
    Answer: 20461
    27 Mar, 2010

    (Fatwa: 529/L=174/tl=1431)

    Paying reverence to idol is kufr (infidelity).

    تعظيم الصنم كفر . (الدر المختار مع الشامي : 5/396 كتاب القصص).

    When you had repented, it is hoped that Almighty Allah would have accepted your tauba. Do not commit such act again. And do tauba and istighfar whenever you remember this incident.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan what u are saying is.muslims are allowed to share anybody with allah.this is message of vedas and gurugranth god is one ek omkar.but we are not allowed to insult or insult the faith of anybody.i attack brhmnsm not their religious.brhmnsm is like zoinism it is nemesisi of all religions.
    take case of durga ,i have seen caricatures similiar to this in shanghai ,macao and one more city in china ,i cannot remember its name.this carricature came to calcutta from china or it has gone to that area from india.we dont accerpt this as god at all .but if u have faith i have no objection.puja is celberated with same fervor in bangladesh like in india.

    vo sanam jo khuda ban chuke hain
    unka deedar karna mana hai.
    likh usne dar par yeh apne
    is jagah pyar karna mana hai. in urdu poetry bloved is god.so it is prohibited to see her.

    i totally agree with fatwa.if u are muslim u have to follow islam.respect others faith.one god is base of islam.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sandhu bhai salman is bringing ganesh,so that brhmns can save him from many court cases ,he has.vedas and quran we can keep but geeta,no, may be he is keeping out of respect for his wife.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan what u are saying is right .muslims are not allowed to share anybody with allah.shirk means u are no more muslim.allah is one.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Shan, this is an example of extreme religous orthodoxy which is pointless, but it is not anti national.

    Go to youtube and see clips of Salman Khan celebrating Ganesh Chaturti in his house or see clips of Shahrukh Khan’s prayer room which has both the Geeta and the Quran. Now millions of ppl watch those clips and

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    sorry post cut off-

    Shan, this is an example of extreme religous orthodoxy which is pointless, but it is not anti national.

    Go to youtube and see clips of Salman Khan celebrating Ganesh Chaturti in his house or see clips of Shahrukh Khan’s prayer room which has both the Geeta and the Quran. Now millions of ppl watch those clips and dont know how many watch this deobandi stuff. Yes, if you go into comments below those clips, all hindus are supportive of this and some Indian muslims and many more Pak muslims are shrieking their heads off- this is shirk, he is munafiq etc.

    So my feeling is ignore these examples of ritual religiousity and conc on meatier transgressions.
    My 2 paisa.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Shan, this is an example of extreme religous orthodoxy which is pointless

    sandhu jee this is the bae of our religion.ek omkar.fatwa is right and there is nothing wrong in it.respect others faith but follow ur faith.

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    ramavtar, this must be the only sensible thing you have ever said so far. Friend, if you keep it simple and keep your sentiments noble, then no one would mind.

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    earlier on, you had asked which town in UP I was from. Dont know if it was a wild guess but yes I am from UP. Born Lucknow, lived Aligarh, Allahabad, Agra. Now a kati patang

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    apna bhi yahee haal hai.des kya choota banjare ho gaye.safar apna bhi lamba hai.up ka aadmi kabhi galat baat nahin kahta hai.joke kee aadat hai aise hee likh deta hoon.punjabi ko preshan karne me maza ata hai.inkee galiyan sun ke up kee galiya sun ke apna desh yaad ata hai.

    sahebe tames pe sangam ka sanam yaad raha
    aiye up ,mujhe london mein bhi tera deedai nam yaad raha.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    ramavtar, kahaan ho aajkal ?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    ISLAM IS A SH*T RELIGION , MU HAM HEAD WAS A B@STARD

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    are you known as hey ram in daytime

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ Mishrajee, you are copying my lines- Egypt banega Pakistan- but then they do say that imitation is the best form of flattery. He he.
    Anyway I loved your comparison of Hosni and KPS Gill – It displays your grasp of world history to be able to weave together such disparate strings. ( although I do not know anything about Fujimoriya to comment).
    There is one important difference though, Hosni only fought a low grade smouldering ?mutiny by islamists, while our Gill fought a WAR which had almost broken India in two. He should be given the Bharat Ratna, not Tendulkar.
    There is another difference, Hosni stashed 60 billion (yes biliion) $ away, Gill was incorruptible. In fact, the proud Sikh race is incorruptible in general. Before someone else says it let me preempt them- The fact of whether he or not he patted some girl’s bottom is not relevant when one looks at his career as a whole.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @Mishra doc- interesting and disturbing evidence of Islamist attacks on tourists, I was not aware there were so many. Unlike you I have never dived, took my family there a few years ago and we went on a glass bottomed boat and we could still see a lot. Have a luvly pic of a sting ray just below the boat.
    Does India offer scuba diving?

    Also, the recent shark attacks in Egypt- were they Osama trained- ha

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @Mohan, besides Mishrajee, there are other fascinating artistes here- Gopi, Mirza, Shoeb, Raju Kurien, Hegde and the newly returned Syed. As you say, the doctor’s writings vary widely, I syspect it has a lot to do with the time of the day ie, is it him talking or the wine. He he.
    C H E E R S

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Dr Mishra and others about Egypt /Pakistan

    Egyptians, by the way they organized and executed their movement, clearly demonstrated that they are Egyptians first an formost. The cries were “this is my land” , even on the right wing FOx TV, I id id not see any sign of “All hu Akbar” or “Death to America” or US flag burning etc , although FOX camera was clearly looking for those signs. Neither there were moustacheless bearded boys (that Misra refers to).

    The key now is whether the army will dupe these idealists. Islamic Brotherhood is not an extremist fundamentalist party anymore, they have reanchore to the Egyptian and world realities.

    Comparing Egypt to Pakistan may not make sense. New York Times, few days ago, on feb 12,, published a survey conucted by Rockfeller Foundation (Lawrence Pintak an Syed Jave Nazir wrote an op ed on this) polling JOURNALISTS across the country. These were the results:

    - Identity crisis (51% Consiered Muslims first, 28% consiered journalists first, only 17% considered Pakistanis first)
    - Religion/God – 59% wanted Govt not to pass laws that contradicts Sharia, 49% wanted that politicians who do not believe in God shoul not hold office –

    In contradiction to this, my belief is that Egyptians consider themselves as Egyptians first — from their comments on rebuilding Egypt, from their call to Egyptian professionals worldwide to come back for rebuilding etc. As long as they consier themselves Egyptians first and formost, they will not give away the freedom from one despot to another group of clerics who will control more than what Hosni did.

    As somebody else mentioned in this blog, the movement being totally grounds up, do not have a leader who can hold competing factions together when power sharing and systems of govt are discussed and new institutions formed. That seems to be the biggest issue that may lead to unfavorable outcomes.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @binoy , you are OVER OPTIMISTIC. The demonstrators in Tahirir square ARE NOT THE ONLY EGYPTIANS, they are a very skewed sample.real egypt lies in its slums and in rural area ,
    AND DO NOT FORGET AL AZHR IS THE FOUNTAINHEAD OF ISLAMIC THEOLOGY. And islamic theology we all know IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH SECULAR DEMOCRACY(see my post above on Deobandis in India). As for Fox News , a news just seen in HT about CBC female reporter SEXUALLY MOLESTED BY MOB IN TAHIRIR SQUARE. I wouldn’t count your chickens yet, though looks like THINGS ARE PRETTY BAD ACROSS THE MUSLIM WORLD , AS BAHARAIN , THE LATEST CONTAGION SHOWS. Probably ECONOMICS is the root cause than freedom /corruption/democracy.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan-
    Let us give some time before passsing judgment. Yes, Egypt is complex and there are different competing factions like any society.

    Lack of opportunities coupled with lack of freedom were the basic drivers; so also a feeling that they are not living in their own country, because the country is “owned” by political leaders and oligarchists.

    A unique Egyptian model may emerge. We should be OK as long as it meets the needs of its people an do not form a threat to others (by promoting terrorism) .

    My bet is that they will emerge with solid systems in place. If not, we should be prepared to write off Arabs. They are doomed. And we too, because terrorists will be on an international destruction, like the 19 9/11 boys and their ring leader Mohamed Atta from Egypt.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    I didn’t write anything about Egypt revolution, as it would be a repetition of what I wrote in Gautam’s blog, weeks ago.

    But comparing Egypt and Pakistan is comparing apples and oranges. Muslims from Indian subcontinent have a complex feel of victimhood (similar to Blacks) and identity crisis (I am worried; this negative attitude towards society around them will spiral them down in the route of poverty and crime, same track as Blacks). Middle east Muslims do not have that problem. They are not insecure.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy,your words” as long as it meets the needs of its people an do not form a threat to others (by promoting terrorism)”.
    As you Francis fujiyama of your RAND corporation had said END OF HISTORY, or history as we know as clash of ideas has ended because there is oneand only way towards PROGRESS AND PROSPERITY , that is LIBERAL DEMOCRACY(secularism included)
    For Egypt to fulfill your wishes , they need to go down one and only path , ELSE BACK TO THE FUTURE.

    raj Reply:

    @shan, Probably ECONOMICS is the root cause than freedom /corruption/democracy.
    — yes, there was massive price increase, no employment, no money for people, and its more like food riot, gone to a good conclusion. that’s why brother hood was sleeping & did not see it capable of chasing away mubarak.
    this is not french revolution which created a secular republic. but one good step though.
    — waiting for election date !!!

  • D Mishra, UK

    Mohan, thank you, glad someone is reading what I write. Worshipping autocrats- guilty as charged. A bad democracy is another name for anarchy. Witness India- Mayawati, Mulayam, Raja, the list is endless. Your and my pride in India owes a lot to Gandhi and Nehru, but yes, they were dreamers. The man who gave their dreams a face was lohpurush- Sardar Patel.
    So guilty as charged Sir, Patel is the biggest Indian hero for me.
    When a country starts, you need a tough govt. Rules have to be obeyed. On that basis Tatas Birlas rise. On that basis you establish quality education, you abolish crime. That is how a nation takes birth.
    Benoy, Bulwinder, thank you also, will respond later. Working now, typing this in my lunch break !!

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Mishra , only somebody with a surname like Mishra and who hails from COWBELT can write such garbage, like ONLY THIS WAY TATAS AND BIRLAS RISE. I suggest you plonker , read these two books Liberty or Death By Patrick french and India after Gandhi. Birlas used to pay the British during daytime and cladestinely pay GANDHIOR CONGRESS PARTY at night. In fact one of Birla’s son used to work for Birlas. It is for these Mishras and Sharmas and jha’s and Tewaris , UP AND BIHAR is what it is today(mayavati is a recent character). The Hindustan Ambassador was PLANTED BY THEN ROVER company , the model that was being phased out in uk , it called MORRIS OXFORD. There have been more modification and improvement on the originalQuoran , than the Hindustan Ambassador.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    @shan, it is clear from our previous posts that I am a Consultant Physician from Yorkshire and you are a trainee surgeon from Kent. I am 62 and you must be ? 32-33. Is that how you debate esp with a senior-
    ….@Mishra , only somebody with a surname like Mishra and who hails from COWBELT can write such garbage, like ONLY THIS WAY TATAS AND BIRLAS RISE. I suggest you plonker , read …

    Please do write more politely in the future and I will respond. Also to my UPbhai ramavtar, and Raj, Rajeev etc- I notice a lot of fruity language going on- can we pl desist in the future.
    What do Benoy, Mohan, Gopi, Raju Syed etc think ?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Who told you I belong to UP?

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    i called ramavtar upbhai for we had a bit of a nice getting to kow each other conversation 2 days ago

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mo-Autar Is not from India. He is actually a Mohajir from Karachi who have visited India to meet his saner relatives.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have privilege of belonging to many states simultaneously. I’d never give up this privilege.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    tajender

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, the movement is spreading to Bahrain, Lybia, Iran, yemen,….

    It is against oppression, for liberation; it has nothing “islamic” about it.. Isrel has lot of faults; but these ‘worse than Isrel” autocrats used that as a wedge issue craeting hatred and covering uip all their corruption and lack of attention to their countries.

    The chickens havve come home to roost. Arabs and Muslims will be smart to use this new occasion for nation building; and not go back to the “al queda” version of the world. Indications are that they want to move woith the world.

    This will be an opportunity to wipe clean the “image” of Muslims as Gopi indicated. World sees not the blood thirsty jehadis, but sophisticated youngsters like all of us, comfortable with technology, comfortable with being part of this world.

    Fox News is trying very hard to portary these people as Islamists.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I wonder who is laughing now??

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Talibani,
    You are fit case for monitoring. I see a potential jihadi in you.
    You call yourself sikh but are actually true follower of Osama. Shame on you.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    What we need is a R E V O L U T I O N in India

    This is a cut and paste, but please feel Free to abuse me.

    ____________________________________________________________

    15 February 2011 Last updated at 00:10

    An ‘English goddess’ for India’s down-trodden

    By Geeta Pandey

    A new goddess has recently been born in India. She’s the Dalit Goddess of English.
    The Dalit (formerly untouchable) community is building a temple in Banka village in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh to worship the Goddess of the English language, which they believe will help them climb up the social and economic ladder.

    About two feet tall, the bronze statue of the goddess is modelled after the Statue of Liberty.
    “She is the symbol of Dalit renaissance,” says Chandra Bhan Prasad, a Dalit writer who came up with the idea of the Goddess of English.

    “She holds a pen in her right hand which shows she is literate. She is dressed well and sports a huge hat – it’s a symbol of defiance that she is rejecting the old traditional dress code.
    “In her left hand, she holds a book which is the constitution of India which gave Dalits equal rights. She stands on top of a computer which means we will use English to rise up the ladder and become free for ever.”

    Considered to be at the bottom of the traditional Hindu caste system, the Dalits have been oppressed and discriminated against for centuries.

    ‘Unclean’

    Although the caste system was abolished when India gained independence in 1947, prejudices still remain, keeping the Dalits marginalised.

    The 200-million-strong community was traditionally engaged in menial jobs which the other higher castes consider “unclean”. And the trend continues even today.

    The discrimination extended to education too with the school system dominated by the higher castes. Even today in many rural schools, campaigners say Dalit children are not welcome – they are often made to sit and eat separately.

    And this is reflected in the literacy rate for the community which at below 55% is almost 10% lower than Indian literacy rates.

    Mr Prasad says that in the cities, people know the importance of English. In smaller towns, there is some knowledge of its importance. But in villages, there is no awareness that you need English to get ahead.

    “In 20 years,” he says, “no jobs would go to anyone in India who doesn’t know English. If we don’t do something now, the Dalits would not be job worthy.”

    With the temple to Goddess English, he hopes to attract the villagers to language and learning.
    The plan, however, has run into trouble with the authorities.

    “The administration said we needed permission to build the temple. We’ve applied for it now, we hope to get it soon,” Mr Prasad says.

    The foundation stone was laid in April last year and when I recently visited the Nalanda Public Shiksha Niketan School in Banka, I could see the temple walls had already been built.

    Dalits make up nearly 47% of the population of Banka which is estimated to be between 7,000 and 8,000. And the English goddess has generated a lot of excitement – women here can be heard singing Jai Angrezi Devi Maiyaa Ki [Long Live the mother goddess of English].

    “The stoppage of work on the temple has affected morale,” says Nalanda school principal Shiv Shankar Lal Nigam.

    He says the importance of English cannot be overstated in today’s India.

    “It’s not possible to get by in today’s world without English. Even to communicate with people in other Indian states, you need to know either the local language or English. Since you cannot learn multiple Indian languages, English has to be used as the link language.”

    English, he believes, will increase the Dalit youths’ chances of getting into institutes of higher education and improve their employment prospects.

    Roar of ambition

    For Satinder Kumar, a Dalit student in the 11th grade, English is the magic key. He believes it will open the door to a better future.

    “I want to study English and then I want to be an English teacher,” he tells me. “The language will help me communicate better with other people.”

    For the Dalits of Banka village, English is the only means their children have for escaping grinding poverty.

    Farmer Sanjay Kumar knows no English, but he dreams that his one-year-old daughter Naina will learn the language and have a better life.

    “It’s very important to know English,” he tells me. “If you want to be a doctor or an engineer or a teacher, you must know English. If you want to live in a city, you cannot survive without English.”
    “They say Hindi is our national language, but all official work is done in English. If you don’t know English, you are a failure,” says farm-worker Om Prakash.

    Labourer Sarvesh Kumar says Dalits were never respected and “whatever little we have gained is because of the efforts of Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar” [Dalit thinker and the architect of the Indian constitution].

    “Ambedkar said English was the milk of a lioness, he said only those who drink it will roar,” Chandra Bhan Prasad says.

    He says with the blessings of Goddess English, Dalit children will not grow to serve landlords or skin dead animals or clean drains or raise pigs and buffaloes.

    They will grow into adjudicators and become employers and benefactors.

    Then the roar of the Dalits, he says, will be heard by one and all.

    ….http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12355740

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ravi bhai time has changed for dalit mass conversion anf good command on english is the only way left for liberation.i am writing this from last 3 years hear and there.
    with time language changes,

    a couplet from ghalib,

    yeh kahan thee meri qismat ke visale yaar hota
    gar aur jinda rahte yahee dil ka haal hota

    today ghalib will say like same couplet like this,

    yeh kahan the mere bhagya ke unse bhog hota

    yadi aur jeevet rahte yahee herday ka rog hota.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram

    From my point of view what would be good for India is Equality of Input and Equality of Opportunity.

    I am sure it will not be an easy thing to do, but that should not discourage us.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram

    Thank you for reminding me of this awsome ghazal. To return your compliment, I have added here some more shers from the same ghazal.

    KOI MERE DIL SE PUCHE TEERE NEEMKASH KO
    YE KHALISH KAHAN SE HOTI JO ZIGAR KE PAAR HOTA

    YE KAHAN KI DOSTI HAI KE BANE HAIN DOST NAASEH
    KOI CHAARASAAZ HOTA KOI GHAM GHUSAR HOTA

    YE MASAAL E TASSWWUF YE TERA BAYAN “GHALIB”
    TUJHE HUM WALI SAMJHTE JO NA BAADA KHWAR HOTA

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    Oh…. come on Ravi….i did’nt expect this C&P from you.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    Why?

    Is it because it is C&P. I already apologised for it.

    Or are you surprised about the subject I have chosen.

    I am sorry, if this disappoints you; but the fact is that I am a fee paying bleeding heart liberal and have admitted it many a times.

    I very firmly believe in Equality of Input and Equality of Opportunity, no matter how imperfect the real world is.

    If that is contrary to the image you have formed of me, then that is a failure of my communication skills.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ravi saheb mere hindi translation ka koi appreciation nahee.itna asan bhi nahin hota hai.

    raj Reply:

    at least hinduism doesn’t stop you from inventing new god. as long this god helps its followers.
    for better life no problem.

    this is written by author as an exotic story for western audience. read her other arcticles
    in guardian

    @ravi, try inventing new good for betterment of ahamadis in islam.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Ravi, man gaye hindustani,Mishraji will choke on his wine reading your post. I am pleasently surprised and impressed that litracy rate is 55%. Then again building statue is onething , learning english by heart is another, as they say there are many a sips between the cups and the lips. To learn english you need books schools , the fund for which is controlled by the likes of Mishraji.However English is the magic word, the GERMANS start learning from age SIX.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Benoy, thank you for your comments. I agree that the revolution in Egypt is not religious so far, with thw Muslim Brotherhood surprisingly making muted comments so far.
    I agree that like Turkey, the Army is too strong and secular and the people laid back. But I am reminded of Iran. Many of the young people on this blog may not remenber what Iran was like before Ayotallah. In the sixties and seventies, there were numerous Iranians in medical schools and colleges in Delhi. I interacted with them and found them very modern. Granted that we perhaps saw the cream.
    But my then boss went for a 3 year stint in northern Iran as the Chief Medical Oficer. He was gratified by the welcome and hospitality he recieved as a hindu- he said they were proud of their Persian culture which stretched back 2000 years.
    Then came the revolution. But the moderate Iranians were gobsmacked- Ayotallah had sidetracked the revolution and took the country back 100 years. Changed it completely.
    So I sincerely hope that Egypt na banega Iran ya Pakistan. All my Egyptian friends here in the NHS are working overtime on facebook to ensure that !!!!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mishrajee shah was removed by america.reason ,he refused american misslies to be installed in iran facing russia.that time church has decided to finish communism,as jews were needed in isrealto work menial jobs.americans tried to bring moderate corrupt regime like zardari.they provided propaganda material for azabullah khumeini.as they were not knowing internal dynamics of iranian society.he became a moster out of control.shiaism has church type system.salvation is through moulvi.so they are very powerful among poors.
    sunni has no church system.salvation depends on ur deeds.sunni moulvi are poor.have no much effect on society.rise of muslim brotherhood is because of unemployment corruption and unemployement.they will take 50%seat in parliament.world forces should not force egyptian army to crush them.they can be easily controlled by army.relationship with isreal will change otherwise things will remain calm like sudan..stolen wealth has to be return as amount is very huge.population is 2 crore only.one man brought 1.5 billion dollars in dubai.imagine the amount of wealth they have.
    people of iran and iraq are known for hospitalty,generosity and bravery.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ram, he refused american misslies to be installed in iran facing russia.
    —- but it seems to be more of controlling religion, & becoming a secular country

    Secular Muslim himself, the Shah gradually lost support from the Shi’a clergy of Iran, particularly due to his strong policy of modernization, secularization and conflict with the traditional class of merchants known as bazaari, and recognition of Israel. Clashes with the Islamists, increased communist activity and a 1953 period of political disagreements with Mohammad Mosaddeq – eventually leading to Mosaddeq’s ousting – caused the Shah’s opponents to disagree and overthrow his rule.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Funny how paid journalism is being encouraged…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12461488

    Politician promises free laptops for Assam journalistsBy Subir Bhaumik

    BBC News, Calcutta

    Mr Gogoi says he is only helping journalists carry out their duties The chief minister of India’s north-eastern state of Assam has promised a free laptop to local journalists with at least 10 years experience.

    The move has been condemned by the opposition as a “crude attempt to woo the media” ahead of state elections.

    But Tarun Gogoi said his ruling Congress Party promised laptops for the “welfare of journalists” in its election manifesto five years ago.

    Journalists in Assam have received gifts from politicians in the past.

    But Assam’s opposition leader Prafulla Kumar Mahanta criticised the move.

    “This government thinks the media can be bought by a few laptops,” Mr Mahanta said.

    Mr Gogoi denied allegations of bribery, saying his government was only helping journalists without laptops to fulfil their duties.

    “This has nothing to do with elections. I am not bribing anyone,” he told the BBC.

    “Journalists who move around face major problems doing stories from remote areas because they don’t have laptops, so my government wants to make things easy for them.”

    He said his government was preparing a list of eligible journalists and editors in consultation with the owners of the newspapers.

    Ten years ago Congress politician Mani Kumar Subba gave away free mobile phones to journalists who came to interview him.

    Mr Gogoi’s predecessor Hiteswar Saikia gave away a licence for a liquor shop to the wife of a senior local journalist.

    Many journalists have been gifted cars, houses and free air tickets from ruling politicians.

    ram autar Reply:

    americans are after interest now religion or ideology.in iraq they are supporting DAWA party which is terrorist shia organization.they only support dictators and oligarchies.if they refuse to obey their orders ,they start thretening them with democracy and other measure.they supported khomeini to dislodge shah.general public wants honest leader not secular leader.shsh and his family were swimming in deep corruption.mullah regime has done lot for poor people of iran.but now their time is finished.will go.though it is not easy.

  • D Mishra, UK

    @ Balwinder, thanks for yr comment- I have been a bit behind in following this Egyptian rev. Was not aware that Hosni had stolen billions. No news of that in the last 2 decades, none that I came across.
    But many ppl are unaware of the range of Islamists attacks in Egypt over the last 15 years. Since I have been there for diving a few times, I had seen articles in the local press that NEVER MADE it to the international press. Hosni did clamp down hard on these. We only read about the more substantial ones.
    Dont believe me= see this link-
    http://www.usdivetravel.com/T-EgyptTerrorism.html

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mishrajee raed this also VALENTINE GIFT TO PEOPLE OF IRAQ BY AMERICA,20 YEARS AGO,

    Recalling the Slaughter of Innocents
    By Ray McGovern

    February 15, 2011 — Twenty years ago, as Americans were celebrating Valentine’s Day, Iraqi husbands and fathers in the Amiriyah section of Baghdad were peeling the remains of their wives and children off the walls and floor of a large neighborhood bomb shelter.

    The men had left the shelter the evening before, so their wives would have some measure of privacy as they sought refuge from the U.S.-led coalition bombing campaign, which was at its most intense pre-ground war stage.

    All of the more than 400 women and children were incinerated or boiled to death at 4:30 a.m. on Feb. 13, 1991, when two F-117 stealth fighter-bombers each dropped a 2,000-pound laser-guided “smart bomb” on the civilian shelter at Amiriyah.

    It was one of those highly accurate “surgical strikes.” The first bomb sliced through 10 feet of reinforced concrete before a time-delayed fuse exploded, destroying propane and water tanks for heating water and food.

    Minutes later the second bomb flew precisely through the opening that had been cut by the first and exploded deeper in the shelter creating an inferno.
    Fire rose from the lower level to the area where the women and children were seeking shelter – and so did the boiling water. Those who did not burn to death immediately or die from the bombs’ impact were boiled or steamed to death in the intense heat.

    The bombs hit toward the end of the month-long bombing campaign to “soften up” Iraq before the U.S.-led ground invasion to drive Iraqi troops from Kuwait.
    The aerial bombing had begun on Jan. 17, 1991; the coalition flew over 100,000 sorties, dropping 88,500 tons of bombs. U.S. government documents show that the bombs were targeted on civilian as well as military infrastructure. They were very accurate.

    This is not to suggest that the targeters knew that some 400 women and children would be killed at Amiriyah. No, it was just one of those unfortunate mistakes to which many Americans have become accustomed, even inured – whether the unintended-but-nevertheless-dead victims be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, wherever.

    Indeed, the stealth aircraft and the ordnance were a proud paragon of precision performing their mission. How was the Air Force to know that the targeting information was based on spurious “intelligence” reports that the shelter had become a military command site?

    Actually, Brigadier General Buster Glosson, who had overall responsibility for targeting, later commented that the “intelligence” pointing to military use was not “worth a sh_t.”

    Human Rights Watch noted later in 1991:

    “It is now well established, through interviews with neighborhood residents, that the Amiriyah structure was plainly marked as a public shelter and was used throughout the air war by large numbers of civilians.”

    A BBC correspondent, Jeremy Bowen, was among the first TV reporters to arrive on the scene. He was given access to the site and found no evidence of military use. The Pentagon later admitted that it had known that “the Amiriyah facility had been used as a civil-defense shelter during the Iraq-Iran war” from 1980 to 1988.

    So who was held responsible for this horrible “mistake”? Are you kidding? What planet did you say you were from?

    A Time to Witness

    In “Death of a Salesman,” Arthur Miller puts these words into the mouth of Willy Loman’s wife, Linda, words that I believe also apply to the “small” people huddled that night in the shelter in Amiriyah:

    “I don’t say he’s a great man. … But he’s a human being, and a terrible thing is happening to him. So attention must be paid. He’s not to be allowed to fall in his grave like an old dog. Attention, attention must finally be paid to such a person.”

    This imperative was brought home to me when my friend Art Laffin of the Dorothy Day Catholic Worker in Washington, DC, called me on Feb. 12, 2003, as a fresh wave of “coalition” attacks on Iraq loomed. Art had visited the huge underground coffin at Amiriyah. He said: “I was there, Ray; I saw it; I talked to the men.”

    Art told me of a memorial liturgy to be held in front of the White House the next day, marking the 12th anniversary of the precision bombing at Amiriyah, lest the massacre be forgotten.

    “You should come with us,” said Art in his soft-spoken but prophetically challenging way.

    “But I am planning to write the kind of op-ed that might inform enough people about the lies upon which a new war on Iraq would be launched, that the juggernaut might be stopped,” thought I to myself. “If people only knew the truth. …”

    Then Linda Loman’s words started ringing in my ears — or perhaps they were coming from somewhere else — maybe a voice emerging out of my deep respect for the likes of Dorothy Day and Art Laffin. “Attention, attention must be finally paid.”

    So there we stood marking the day, and praying that somehow future days like it could be avoided. The wind-chill factor was well below zero, so there was some solace to being put in the paddy wagon. It was my first arrest and (brief) imprisonment.

    And it was exhilarating. I may be biased, given the experience of this first arrest, but if you are going to risk arrest via non-violent civil disobedience, you can’t have steadier, more prophetic companions than those of the Catholic Worker.

    When we went to court for trial the new war had already begun. To our surprise, the judge announced that the arresting officer had not appeared and, thus, we were free to go. I rushed to get out the door, thinking the officer might still get there.

    But Art blocked my way, turned to the judge, and asked if she would allow him to explain what we were doing on Feb. 13, 2003, and why. The crowded courtroom listened intently as Art held forth for about five minutes.

    “Let’s have some coffee,” said Art as he caught up to me running down the street away from the courthouse. “Have you been able to reflect on what just happened? Do you remember how that African-American woman police officer was listening to us as we shared our hopes in the paddy wagon?

    “Do you think, Ray, that non-violent civil disobedience could be contagious?”

    A day or two later, a short passage in Luke’s gospel leaped out at me. Jesus of Nazareth is warning fledgling “Catholic workers” about what to expect if they remain faithful:

    “Countries will fight each other … there will be terrifying things coming from the sky. Before all these things take place, however, you will be arrested and persecuted; you will be handed over to be tried … you will be brought before kings and rulers for my sake … Stand firm …

    “This will be your chance to tell the Good News.”

    Duh! My big chance to tell the Good News, and I was running for the door. I was even more grateful that Art did not blow the chance to witness — and to remind me what it is all about.

    I’ve matured to the point where witnessing and risking arrest comes more naturally … and even more exhilarating. On the very snowy day of Dec. 16, 2010, when 131 witnesses against war were arrested at the White House gates at a rally arranged by Veterans for Peace, 42 of us insisted on standing trial.

    The authorities, though, quickly lost their appetite for trying the likes of us, most of whom have defended our country and its constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and assembly, for “failure to obey a lawful order,” i.e. not moving, after being ordered not to remain standing on the sidewalk in front of the White House.

    The “paperwork” on us 42 had been misplaced, we were told.

    As we celebrate this year’s Valentine’s Day and other holidays that stress love and peace, let’s keep in mind that the most painful anniversaries must also be marked; they must be witnessed to; attention must be paid the plight of “small” people still further diminished by the euphemism “collateral damage.”

    Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He served as a CIA analyst and Army infantry/intelligence officer for almost 30 years, and is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    ram, very true about American ’surgical strikes’- reminds me of Vietnamese napalm burnings. Americans are very fond of quoting 55, 000 US dead in the Viet wars. Very few know that 500,000 vietnamese died.
    They say that on the day of 911, the whole world became American. Sadly, the sympathy faded by 25 % after the invasion of Afghanistan and faded completely when they went into Iraq.

    There was a million man march in London to oppose the Iraq war, the majority were non-muslims !!!

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    how about muslim on muslim violence which has been going on for years. you always talk about
    others & how bad they are. but when it comes to critical analysis of islam , violence by islam
    you remain quite, & say its zionist propaganda.
    how about shia killed in iraq, chemical ali gassing his own people. you talk as if iraq was very peaceful before usa started killing. sadam killed millions & suppressed people to control iraq.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    how about muslim on muslim violence which has been going on for years. you always talk about
    others & how bad they are. but when it comes to critical analysis of islam , violence by islam
    you remain quite, & say its zionist propaganda

    mr raj,so what is the pRoblem .hindus and hindu fight christians and christians fight.but religion is never reason for war,zar zan zameen is the main reason.americans cannot walk on the streets of latin america.zoinist propaganda show thenm as religous war.propaganda is never truth.for interest brother kill brother.muslims are weak so they manipulated easily by world power.

    regarding iraq ,yes it was comparitively peaceful before american invasion.zoinist have changed the bibile to convince americans that they are fulfilling biblical prophecies by attacking iraq.
    regarding use of gas.winston churchil was the first person to use gas on them.

    chemical ali is pure propaganda.this gas was used on border city which s close to iran inside iraq not far from isreal.i have read a report from ex-cia analyst that gas which was used on kurd was sold to iran and isreal.this gas was never in possession of iraq.present president of iraq is kurd ,he was saddam ally till end.he never wrote or spoken anything on this subject.or blamed saddam for that.
    for all pains of kurds britain is responsible.they destroyed kurdistan in greed of their oil resources.

  • http://- Rajeev

    If Ravi is a Khalistani, this is for him and all those who engage this Talibani-Khalistani combined.

    Go thru this page and have a great laugh…
    http://www.khalistan.net/?p=898
    Air Khalistan – The Future Vision

    Air Khalistan represents the Sikh Nation’s commitment to fast and comfortable travel for all passengers, state of the culinary art Khalistani Cuisine, enroute strengthening and stretching exercise facility and new nondenominational breakthrough scientific Khalistani Meditation to further enhance the relaxation, to optimize circadian rhythm, and minimize the jet lag for the passengers. The Khalistani Airliners will provide state of the art latest nano internet technology including laser and gigaflop transfer of data. Enroute learning, sharing, teleconferencing and select individual entertainment will be standard on super- supersonic Khalistani Jets, the shear dreamliners.Outer space flying will also be an option, where airplane speed of Mach 3-5 will be the standard norm. It will minimize the travel time and make business travel more efficient. Air Khalistan look forward to serving you with enthusiasm in the future.

    Thanks for visiting the Sikh Nation’s web site, Khalistan.net.

    CEO
    Air Khalistan

    Khalistani Cuisine

    By Chef De Khalistan

    -Khalistani Prindey (Chicken Tandoori)

    -Khalistani Harian Maujan (Saag)

    -Khalistani Ladaki Chicken (Green Chilli Chicken)

    -Khalistani Mithian Maujan (Ras Malai)

    -Khalistani Mast Ghugoo Soup(Onion Soup)

    -Khalistani Basant Bahaar (Halwa)

    -Khalistani Maha Parshad (Beef / Lamb Curry)

    -Khalistani Samundar (Steamed Milk)

    -Khalistani Yellow Roll (Maki Di Roti)

    -Khalistani Badaam (Peanuts)

    ………. and many more1 Please stay tune.

    Soon coming:

    “Khalistani Institute of Culinary Arts”

    “Khalistani Institute of Technology”

    “Khalistani Institute of Performing Arts”

    “Khalistani Institute of Medical Sciences”

    “Khalistani Intelligence & Social Sciences Service”

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    very true, ramavtar, before they battled each other to near bankruptcy, the Iranians and Iraqis were known throughout India for their culture and their hospitality. It is stunning what 2 monsters- Ayotallah and Saddam- could do to their countries.
    Re yr comment about stolen Egyptian wealth, that is what Balwinder was also saying, I did not know much abt it. But it resonates with us- they do say that Indians have 1.5 trillion $ stashed away abroad. Imagine if all this wealth went back to the original countries, Switzerland wud collapse for sure.
    You will notice that others have also commented on yr recent posts- they are actually readable. Great, is this the birth of the new ram and shud I take some credit for that ?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Ravi the Talibani-Sikh has been aggressively defending his muslim JIJAJIS…This is for misguided talibanised sikhs like him.
    http://www.haloonaa.com/News/300_Sikh_Girls_Trapped.pdf

    , we took a jeep, and set out on the roads, we didn’t know where we were going, we just
    went, where ever the road took us. We got close to a town Called Eminabad, here we informed the
    police of what had happened to us, they helped us, we were handed over to the British embassy and
    sent back to the UK.
    Once back in the UK, the police tried to hand us back to our families, OUR OWN families had disowned
    us, my family told me to go away, that I had brought shame to the family name, I tried to apologise,
    and they would not accept it.
    I even tried to get help form the Gurdwara, they said they could not help us. We had to go back to the
    police, who then put us in a witness protection programme.
    The year is 1996, I was then 21. We both were given a new chance to start a fresh, the police helped
    us a great deal. In the programme we were given a place to stay and they gave us new jobs, to rebuild
    our lives.
    I am now 29, married and a 3 year old girl.
    I re-initiated into Sikhism in 1998, me and my friend, we took Amrit and took an active role to combat
    what had happened to us and help others in the same situation.
    There is not a single second that goes by, without me thinking about those poor girls locked up in
    Pakistan. I have been scared for life. But I must do everything I can to try to create awareness to help
    those girls that scream every night and go through that abuse. I am thankful to the Police who are
    trying to help those girls, but I think we as a community need to do much more.
    We must come out of hiding, and face the danger these girls now face. But what we find is a really
    negative attitude employed by all parties, the families, Gurdwara and the girls, to do anything about
    this.
    I know what happened to me and what is still happening to those that are in Pakistan. Accordingly to
    the latest figures, there are 300 girls there right now, facing constant abuse, who are getting drugged
    up everyday and then raped. 5 of 5
    One of them is your relative!! Just keep that I mind, your cousin who you have not seen for over 3
    years, went to university and never came back!
    When you ask your uncle and auntie, where is your cousin who you nor your family have seen for so
    long, you get the reply, that she has brought a house there and she has found herself a good job, and
    so she is constantly busy.
    I beg you please stop these lies, please help my sisters’ in Pakistan, who no-one helps, their families
    are too scared, or they don’t know where she is? We must put a stop to this, I saw what is happening
    there, believe me, I do not even wish this to happen my enemies, when you see a young girl being
    raped by savages, who beat her and then spit on her you  remember God, believe me when all you 
    can hear is her screams to stop and her cry for h  elp all you can do is watch.
    Those girls need your help!
    I pray all the time to Guru, to please help, those girls, every time I get the chance.
    We must make sure not a single girl goes to that living Hell from today. We must educate every one of
    our girls and boys about our religion. We must take it upon our selves to educate ourselves and our
    own families about Sikhism and the dangers it faces constantly. We must thrive to make sure this
    never happens to any girl, irrelevant of her religion ever again.
    I hope Guru Ji helps us.
    I hope you at least help your self and your own family.
    I would like to thank both the Pakistan and British police that are trying to combat this increasing
    trend.
    I hope all those that took those poor girls over to Pakistan, realise that God is within us all, and not just
    in the heavens, I wish they could just imagine for 1 single second, that one of those girls was their own
    sister!
    No one would ever want this to happen to anyone, believe me.
    We have altered the above account to safe guard our source. The name and locations have been
    changed and how our penji escaped has been changed dramatically for the simple reason not to
    jepordise any other girls opportunity to escape. Please note this is not racial incitement as it was
    MUSLIMS that finally got penji back into Britain.
    We would like to thank penji for giving us this account; we can only appreciate how hard it must have
    been to write this or what she went through!
    I would also like to say, please do not discriminate a whole race because of a small minority. This is
    against the principles Sikhi.
    PLEASE EDUCATE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS ON OUR BEAUTIFUL HISTORY, LEARN ABOUT YOUR RELIGON SO THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO OUR FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTERS AGAIN.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @no need to call talibani sikh ,just KHALISTANI will meet all your criteria .

    [Reply]

  • syed

    In the long run democracies have a calming effect on populations as people can release heir frustrations through the the ballot box. Populations in Democratic muslim countries such as Turkey, malaysia, Indinesia etc. are much more at ease than those under monarchies or dictatorships.

    The fear of islamists gaining power democratically might not be entirely unfounded. However the ruling AK party in Turkey is also Islamist and it really has not done anything to disturb the status quo. Running a country needs a different set of rules from being Islamist. In a democracy any party which forgets basic economics will not win in the future which means that the actions of parties whether islamists or others, would not be very different from each other.

    @Rajeev
    I think you are missing the issue here. What you have pasted is the action of individuals and not the policy of the state. I am quite sure I can get a thousand worse stories in India regarding muslim girls. You will be well aware, a disproportionlate amount of prostitutes in india are muslims.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed your observation about democracy in three muslim countries are partially valid. In case of Turkey , IT IS THE ARMY BREATHING DOWN THE NECK ,KEEPS IT SECULAR AND DEMOCRATIC , ALSO NATIONALISM OVERIDES ISLAMIN TURKEY.Malaysia is democratic , sort of , reflect on the guy opposition politician framed for sodomy and BHUMIPUTRA AND ALLTHAT is a blot on democracy, still malaysia is far far far better than pakistan , though keep in mind mineral and oil resources. Indonesia is a curious country , LOT OF HINDU PAST IS STILLALIVE , like the names , may be some ritual and another very hindu characterestic CORRUPTION (indonesia is the most corrupt country in the world) DEMOCRACY IS IN ITS INFANCY IN INDONESIA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    TILAK BROUGHT LORD GANESH TO INDIA FROM INDONESIA.WHO CAN BE SEEN STILL ON THEIR CURRENCY NOTES.INDONESIA WAS NEVER RULED BY MUSLIMS.THEY CONVERTED AFTER READING ABOUT ISLAM.but they still respect their past.name of their airline is garuda,vehicle of lord vishnu.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Clerics are completely out of the picture in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Turkey governments, unlike Pakistan, KSA, Iran etc.

    Some of the parties in Malaysia have flirted with Islamism; but not to a detrimental level. The politics ddid turn dirty during Mahatirs waning days.

    Indonesian corruption was propagated by Suharto , who at the end was sacked by its people. Indonesia has homegrown terrorists, but the govt is handlling it right, unlike Pakistan. They arrested a big time Mullah (Aboobaccker). two weeks ago.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr gopi ,the moment american leave the area taliban will be mascared by local population they are there or in pakistan because of america.drone attacks and their continous mascares.drones have killed more than 2000 innocent women and childrn in wazistan only.americans want taliban to justify their presence.leadership of both countries want them to cheat americans and make money.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    There may be some cases of Hindu girls eloping with muslim girls but I am strictly talking about a trend in UK and Canada where muslim boys have been going after non-muslim girls for the purpose of sexually exploiting them and converting them to Islam.

    There are many stories from pak where minor hindu girls are abducted at regular intervals by muslims, brought to some mosque and forcibly converted. Once girl is converted, the girl is not allowed to meet her HINDU parents giving the reason that a muslim women can not mix with non-muslims.

    Please google these stories. There is a serious problem here which you are trying to deny in Manmohan like language.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hindu girls are abducted at regular intervals

    99%of tof these stories are nothing but lies.for local consumption most of the hindus live there are dalits.in pakistan hindu means rich.there are lot high caste as well.in india u are doing much much more to them.there are 70 lacs hindus as per president of hindu samiti there.
    muslims defend their rights if they see something wrong.one sikh girl eloped with muslim boy.there was full fledged war between 2 pathan tribe one of the tribe declared that girl may be sikh,but she is from their tribe.they want her back.50-60 people died in that war.hindus in pakistan curse people like u .when babri masjid was demolished they remained in hiding for 3-month.though no body was killed but they were scare.one hindu madrasi boy working in intercontinental karachi ,told me this during my stay over there.abt 4 years back.
    pakistan is builting biggest university in asia where guru nank jee was born.that kasba `is made district and university is named guru nanak university.main square of lahore is name after shaheed bhagat singh.

    rajeev,HATE IS UR DUTY,rss(rumour spreading society)teaches u all this rubbishnes.now because of these stupidities gang of abhinav bharat decided to kill mohan bhagwat his own boss.
    war voilence and hatred is oxygen for people like u.lie is staple food.provocating one and incite other is only expertize u have.
    but i know u are good innocent man. u are being used.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    You know most of the protitutes in India are muslims who hail from a very poor country called Bangladesh. The illegal migration from Bangladesh mixed with extreme poverty is cause of so-called muslim protituition and it has got nothing to do with religion.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Also many of the prostitutes are also Nepalese hindu girls..the reason is same..they can enter India without any problem plus they are extremely poor.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    no there are lot of local as well.all caste muslims may be more.in hyderabad local expenditure by municipality is 5%only.that is most of our population is gradually becoming slum and ghetto dwellers with ghetto mentality.

    Ravi Reply:

    WOW

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Kya hua talibani…

    Ravi Reply:

    Aankhen mal raha hoon, kuch smaj nahin atta. Kya yeh sach ho sakta hai….? Waqt hi bataye ga.

    Aaj Karachi mein mausam acha hai

    Rajeev Reply:

    Kya hua..kya Ram Autar ke saath soya hua tha..

    ram autar Reply:

    Kya hua talibani

    boojho to jane

    Rajeev Reply:

    Boojna kya kya..talibani-talibani sage bhai..

    ram autar Reply:

    Boojna kya kya..talibani-talibani sage bhai

    up mein mausere bhai hotein hai.

    tumahara bhi koi bhai hai.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Yahan par sage bhai…Mausere bhaiyon mein thoda difference hota hai…

    ram autar Reply:

    no lot of them are from nepal as well.in agra u will find lot of rajput even from royal family as well.muslims are more it is right.because of unemploment and poverty.i have many brhmns as well.
    banias are not much.

    aib hazar hon lekin koi ghareeb na ho

    yeh aisa daag hai jo dushman ko bhi naseeb na ho.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @Rajeev- I am a sikh and my initial reaction is one of fury. My second and more lasting reaction is one of scepticism- maybe borne out a fervent desire to hope that this horrifying tale is not true. We do need more objective verifyable evidence.
    The Sikh rumour mill in gurudwars both here and to a smaller degree in my native Amritsar is full of these wild stories. I need substantiation.
    @ Syed, I was not aware that a higher number of prostitutes in India are muslim, although maybe not surprising given that poverty and the oldest profession are long lasting companions. Any evidence to back up your claim?

    BOTTOM LINE IS I AM FED UP OF TE RUMOUR FACTORY. WE DO NOT WANT TO END UP LIKE THE BASKET CASE PAKISTAN WHOSE RUMOUR MONGERS SHOULD EARN MILLIONS IF THEY SWITCHED PROFESSION AND BECAME FICTION WRITERS. Their claims are a little too OTT, anyone remember – Kasab is Heera Lal, as said by that idiot Zaid Hamid whose fan following in Pakistan has extended to facebook

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I just want to bring it everyones notice. There is a trend in UK (admiited by UK PM) that muslim boys go after non-muslim girls (whites). He left out hindus and sikhs because it doesn’t matter to him. Such concerns have been raised on sikh forums as well (hosted by converted white sikhs).
    Pl. go to http://www.sikhnet.com (discussion) and confirm these with fellow sikhs.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    shan- ” hindu characterstic- corruption????????”

    I was not aware that Pakistan and Congo were hindu

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @balwinder, dont know how well read you are.If you happen to read a book called THY HAND GREAT ANARCH, there is a passage.It runs like this.During the pre independence period, there was some transfer of power to the natives. The municipal corporation was run by elected thus all indian politicians. Now the author asked one of the councillers about the corruption amongst hindu and muslim councillers. The official said “They both take bribes , but the muslim will keep his side of the bargain whereas the hindu counciller will take bribe and not deliver.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Gopi
    “Clerics are completely out of the picture in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Turkey governments, unlike Pakistan, KSA, Iran etc…”
    Ever wondered why? Maybe its because in monarchies and dictatorships, as other legitimate forms of protest is crushed, the only answers for the travails of the populace is from the islamists (who have more staying power)! That being said, implementing democracy is not like putting on a switch. Entire systems/processes/institutions have to be put in place and most imp. –the mindset of the people also needs to be changed as one goes along. So egypt has a long road ahead of it.

    @B Sandhu
    If you read the last comment pasted by rajiv you will realise the writer is basically writing literature with the aim to stir up emotions, to create hatred. Years ago for a period of time I had done volunteerr work with a social organisation working in the redlight area of sonagachi, calcutta. It was then that i realised that the percentage of muslim women was pretty high – much more in % terms than their share of the population.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I don’t expect you to be judgemental.
    I only want to hinghlight that alliance between fanatic muslims and Khalistanis is opportunistic. In reality muslims hate sikhs more than hindus. The article I posted was one such example.

    Did you not see Nepalese hindu women in red light area? The problem with muslims including so-called liberal ones is that they see every problem with Islamic glasses.

    I have read your posts before and find you very liberal but you too tend to look for Islam everywhere.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    I have read your posts before and find you very liberal but you too tend to look for Islam everywhere.

    1) Maybe because when ppl interact with a muslim (including me) their first take is the name. With a muslim name the person is already slotted in their mind. My being liberal or otherwise comes through much much later.
    2) Well, what else do you expect in this blog?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    “1) Maybe because when ppl interact with a muslim (including me) their first take is the name. With a muslim name the person is already slotted in their mind. My being liberal or otherwise comes through much much later.”

    That is your perception because you always think that you are muslim and interpret every conversation in that way.

    “2) Well, what else do you expect in this blog?”
    You are right…the blog name itself proves that Zia can think beyond being MUSLIM.

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims hate sikhs more than hindus.

    a muslim if he hate either is no more muslim.muslim hate evil whether comes from hindu muslim or sikh.islam is message is universal.for everybody.u want u follow u want reject ,reject.messwage from allah,reward or punishment will come from allah.we have no right to hate anybody.everybody is son of allah.hating them is hating allah.that is why zoinists wrote 60000 books against muslims.muslim did not write one.if i speak one word against jesus christ ,we will seize to be muslim.
    allama iqbal always reffered LORD RAMA as imame -hind.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    STFU..

    Iqbal’s grandfather was a hindu kashmiri who used to work in kabul. When he was caught in corruption, ruler gave him choice or either converting to Islam or die, being Iqbal’s ancestor, coward chose islam and rest is history.

    Iqbal was a nationalist who penned ‘Saare jahan se acchha’ but when he came back from west after mingling with fanatic muslim elements, he penned ‘Tarna-e-Milli’ which totally negated ‘Tara-e-hind’. He was nationalist and secular before Islam overcame him and turned him into idelogical jihadi and hate monger.

    ram autar Reply:

    Iqbal’s grandfather was a hindu kashmiri who used to work in kabul. When he was caught in corruption, ruler gave him choice or either converting to Islam or die, being Iqbal’s ancestor, coward chose islam and rest is history

    nothing but bullshit.his father rattan lal sapru converted to islam and migrated to punjab from kashmir.sangh literature is full of stupidities like this .allama iqbal was first cousin of tej bahadur sapru.also had hindu wife.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Go and read more about Iqbal’s ancestory. You can also refer to pakistani sources. He was an ideological jihadi.

    Even Zaid hamid keeps quoting Iqbal to justify his hatred for India and Hindus.

    Rajeev Reply:

    “allama iqbal always reffered LORD RAMA as imame -hind.”

    Why did he not call LORD RAMA “ALLAH” or “RASOOL”…Why only Imam (one who leads prayer)?

    ram autar Reply:

    Why did he not call LORD RAMA “ALLAH” or “RASOOL
    he will become laughing stock as wife of allah can not be kidnapped.imame-hind means spiritual chief.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Hindu consider Rama incarnation of Vishnu so he has same status as Allah or Rasool atleast.

    Your reply should Syed help understand what I have said.

    raj Reply:

    @ram, muslims hate sikhs more than hindus
    — pls tell me what they don’t hate… say something new.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram muslim did not write one.
    —- one koran is creating enoght trouble for mankind/civilization. think about a dozen.
    @hey ram, if i speak one word against jesus christ ,we will seize to be muslim.
    — but its ok to kill them. christians kille in church during mass in pakistan & iraq.

    shan Reply:

    @Syed i can throw some light as it pertains calcutta, though i do not know where exactly sonagachi is ?where is it,somewhere near medical college. What I have read is MOST OF THESE UNFORTUNATE GIRLS HAIL FROM SOUTH 24 PARGANA, CANNING , SONARPUR , DIAMOND HARBOUR.Almost every case ABUSED BY FATHER , ABANDONED EVEN SOLD BY HUSBANDS , ORPHANED ETC, and there is no ifs and buts about it. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE as to what you saw.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan they are victims of our system.we must ashamed of this.instead of searching their religious identity.
    there should be an agitation at all india level,that EDUCATION SHOULD BE THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN.EDUCATION SHOULD BE FREE AND GOOD.WITH TRILLION DOLLAR ECONOMY WE CAN EASILY AFFORD THIS.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Rajeev,
    “The illegal migration from Bangladesh mixed with extreme poverty is cause of so-called muslim protituition and it has got nothing to do with religion.”

    “There is a trend in UK (admiited by UK PM) that muslim boys go after non-muslim girls (whites)”

    You say in your first post above that it has nothing to do with religion. In your second post you imply that religion has everything to do with it! You cannot have it both ways.

    Where does islam tell a muslim to behave that way. You will be well aware, sunni Islam does not allow a muslim man to give even a second look at a woman (irrespective of her religion), forget about seducing her. ALL women in saudi are required to be veiled and not interact with men. Their religion is irrelevant.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    “The illegal migration from Bangladesh mixed with extreme poverty is cause of so-called muslim protituition and it has got nothing to do with religion.”

    This is with reference to INDIA.

    “There is a trend in UK (admiited by UK PM) that muslim boys go after non-muslim girls (whites)”

    Whereas this is with reference to UK.

    Please do not tell us what Islam allows and does not allow… Islam like all other religion produces criminals but in larger number. There MAY be nothing wrong with Islam but there is definitely something rotten in muslim society. One of the problem is muslims like to live in ghettos, usually they are cut off from external world, believe in conspiracy theories which leads to intolerance for other faith which is justified using Islamic text.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    I am not an apologist for Islam but I do have an issue when you say muslims like to live in ghettos. In mumbai and many other cities muslims did start moving out from their ghettos but that made them sitting ducks in the communal riots that followed & a lot of them moved back into their own communities.

    Then there is the persistent problem of not being able to buy/rent houses in lots of non muslim areas which even I have experienced severasl times. Like I have posted earlier – my name is important, no one bothers whether I am liberal or otherwise.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    There are many internal and external reason for muslims to live in Ghettos.
    Internal Reasons-
    1. Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith less respect it for the fear of committing Shirk.
    2. Mullah’s control over minds of masses.
    3. Khutba in mosque is laced with politics and propganda.
    4. Invention of conspiracy theories for every problem.
    5. Unified hatred for jews and hindus.
    6. low educational level
    7. Sense of security among fellow muslims
    8. Desire to see whole world Islamised leading to smaller worlds called muslim ghettos.

    External reasons-
    1. Non-muslims fear muslim violence.
    2. Non-muslims suspect muslims’ loyalty.
    3. Non-muslims fear that muslims may be involved in terror.
    4. Non-muslims fear of muslims taking over their neighborhood.
    5. Non-Muslims dislike muslim stubbornness against assimilation.

    Many of the reasons from both sides may be totally false, partially true or true but while non-muslims try to reach out to muslims, muslims don’t want to change their pre-concieved ideas about others. It is considered islamic to hate jews, break idols, disrespect other faiths. This is the reason. The time has come for muslims to open two-way respect street…The non-muslims can not tolerate one-way traffic anymore.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I think you belong to Lucknow so you must be familiar with kanpur too.

    There used to be a Kayasthana road in kanpur next to muslim areas of nai Sarak and parade. After 1991, muslims made it impossible for hidnus to stay in that neighborhood so all of them moved out of their. Now the same road is called some Rizwi road. What was the need to rename that road?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    RAJEEV it is wrong .due to leather work.muslims of kanpur became very rich and they purchased nearly all good locality in kanpur.these localities u are mentioning were earliermuslim locality.
    but we believe in our police and administration.if anything illegal being done report.why u are using this blog to spread lies and hatred.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Hmmm, lots of nice cliches you have put out…. In the indian context:

    [1. Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith less respect it for the fear of committing Shirk. – False – how many temples have you seen desecrated in the last couple of years?]
    There are many incidents but let us stick to deganga riots.
    http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=105624196167737
    There is a picture of temple destroyed. Such small temples are constantly destroyed by muslims. You will have to follow local papers for that.
    Regarding respect, how many muslims have you seen visiting temples? When hindus can go to dargah why can’t muslims reciprocate in same manner? Reason, they are scared that they will commit shirk and may be ex-communicated.

    [2. Mullah’s control over minds of masses – mullas are not united amongst themselves, let alone controlliing and uniting the minds of the masses .]
    When it comes to hatred against non-muslims, all Mullahs are united across the board.

    [3. Khutba in mosque is laced with politics and propganda – yes, lots of propogands and politics against the other mullas as well as against/for various political powers. So??]
    I am only interested in propaganda like 9/11 done by US or 26/11 done by RSS Mossad.

    [4. Invention of conspiracy theories for every problem – Not so in India.]
    It happens in India too…Most of the muslims believe that 9/11 was work of jews and 26/11 is RSS ki Saazish.

    [5. Unified hatred for jews and hindus. – Indian muslims are not bothered about jews. When the govt. restarted diplomatic relations with Israel how many muslims protested? Was this even an issue with them? And when Indian muslims do not hate jews, how can you expect them to hate hindus!]
    Again untrue. Why did muslims protest against George Bush? Whom do Indian muslims support in Israeli-palestinian conflict? Is the support for palestine not based on islamic brotherhood.

    [6. low educational level: True but is it religion or economics? Hindus and muslims of the same economic levels are equally educated.]
    Low education combined with intolerant fanatic mind is very dangerous.

    [7. Sense of security among fellow muslims: True especially after the gujarat riots but much less now.]
    You should have noticed that hindus too moved out of muslims areas due to fear..so feeling is mutual. What was need for muslims to instigate violence by doing Godhra? There is another conspiracy theory how karsevaks tried to rape a muslim women…

    [8. Desire to see whole world Islamised leading to smaller worlds called muslim ghettos.: How do you know that? Not among the many muslims.]
    Now being a muslim you would not notice that. When someone converts to islam, the kind of comments clearly state that muslims want whole world islamised. The kashmiri muslims are asking for Nizam-e-Mustafa..Why?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Read Ram-Autar comments..that proves my points.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Lesser known riots in Deganga..
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/persecution-by-islam/islamic-barbarism-at-deganga-west-bengal/

    ram autar Reply:

    u can put anything on u-tube ,does not mean it is true.if u have slightest of doubt can go supreme court.today one more has been filed on vanjara and modi for killing somebody in fake encounter.

    Rajeev Reply:

    So deganga riots were also engineered by RSS people with muslim names…

    We all know Afghanistan is the largest producer of OPIUM.

    ram autar Reply:

    during taliban rule not single qure inch war under poppy.zoinist run 4billion drug bussines in new york.afghanistan is biggest supplier of this bussines.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram-

    Why do you always blame Hindus and Zionists for worlds problems and Islam’s problems? For God sake, you are 1.5 billion-2 billion Muslims; why are you afraid of 35 Million Jews? You can just walk over them. Why ont you people, for once, own up and learn and adapt and grow…

    And you say your religion is compassionate.. Why so much hatred?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why was Kayasthana road renamed as Rizvi road?

    Why was SDM pathak shot dead by muslims? If you don’t know about local area, don’t talk about it.

    ram autar Reply:

    1. Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith less respect it for the fear of committing Shirk.
    2. Mullah’s control over minds of masses.
    3. Khutba in mosque is laced with politics and propganda.
    4. Invention of conspiracy theories for every problem.
    5. Unified hatred for jews and hindus.
    6. low educational level
    7. Sense of security among fellow muslims
    8. Desire to see whole world Islamised leading to smaller worlds called muslim ghettos

    NOTHING BUT BULLSHIT.THE ONLY REASON IS EXPLOITATION.FROM GHAZIABAD TO CALCUTTA EVERY CITY IS KNOWN WITH THEIR SKILL.MEERRUT KEE KAINCHI,ALIGARH KE TALE FIROZABAD KEE CHOODI LUCKNOW KS CHICKEN KA KAM.MURADABAD KE BYRTAN.
    BANARAS KE SARI,BHADOI KE CARPET.BHAGALPUR KA RESHAM KA KAM.KANPUR KA LEATHER WORK.APART FOM THESE MOST OF THE CONSTRUCTION LIKE MASON CARPENTARS AUTO MECHANIC A/C MECHNICS ETC ETC.
    BUT IS GOVERMENT IS PARTY WITH BANIAS AND HIGH CASTE MUSLIMS TO THEIR EXTREME EXPLOITATION.
    muslims are creator of wealth.that is why they will never take terrorist path.creator of wealth alwayts want peace to continue their work.

    Unified hatred for jews and hindus
    85%of hindus are our blood brother,but our war with zoinists (not jews)and hindu zoinists(a fraction of which
    is headed by chitpavan)hiding among indians and destroying them is like war between serpent and mangoose.never ending.no ceasfire.

    YARAB NA WO SAMJHE NA SAMJHE MERI BAAT.
    DE AUR DIL UNKO JO NA MUJHKO ZUBAN AUR.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Hmmm, lots of nice cliches you have put out…. In the indian context:

    1. Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith less respect it for the fear of committing Shirk. – False – how many temples have you seen desecrated in the last couple of years?
    2. Mullah’s control over minds of masses – mullas are not united amongst themselves, let alone controlliing and uniting the minds of the masses .
    3. Khutba in mosque is laced with politics and propganda – yes, lots of propogands and politics against the other mullas as well as against/for various political powers. So??
    4. Invention of conspiracy theories for every problem – Not so in India.
    5. Unified hatred for jews and hindus. – Indian muslims are not bothered about jews. When the govt. restarted diplomatic relations with Israel how many muslims protested? Was this even an issue with them? And when Indian muslims do not hate jews, how can you expect them to hate hindus!
    6. low educational level: True but is it religion or economics? Hindus and muslims of the same economic levels are equally educated.
    7. Sense of security among fellow muslims: True especially after the gujarat riots but much less now.
    8. Desire to see whole world Islamised leading to smaller worlds called muslim ghettos.: How do you know that? Not among the many muslims.

    External reasons.. I really cannot be responsible for what others feel!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I must say, this is one of the best discussion I have read on this blog.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Rajeev
    :)
    No hard feelings!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Syed

    Sorry that was not me taking sides. If that is what you understood.

    I was merely reflecting on the quality of the arguements being put forward.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Certainly not. I have always respected your views. I wish others were like you especially one with talibani mindset.

    Keept it coming…I speak from my personal experiences. I’ll quote those as required.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed
    most of ur statements are true..However, on 1 and 6 here are my observations based on what I see in kerala:

    1) I do not think it is an issue of unerstanding other’s faith (for that matter Hindus do not take time to unerstan Islam or Christians do not take time to unerstand Islam etc..). i think it boils down to how socially integrated people are. Kerala has several statewie celebrations, orginated from hindu mythology, but now celebrated as universal/secular state celeb such as Onam, Vishu (malayalam new year), snake boat festival etc also dance forms such as Mohini Attam, kathakali etc. Muslims do not particiapte in the state festivals like snake boat race, Onam etc; neither their children learn the dances. Christians have integrated well in these aspects, never iminishing their Christianity, churches are thriving institutions. Muslims, although have been in the state for 1400 years, have not integarte with the customs. Actually, in many geographical areas they were; but with the employment boom in KSA etc, they reverted back.

    6) Education level – Although at a state level, Muslim education is not at a significant level below others; in Muslim pockets like Malappuram, they do lag behind significantly. Or in other words, in mixed areas, (most of the state is christian/Hinu/Muslim mix) Muslims have done well; however in areas where Muslims are way ahead in population (such as Malappuram, the first district in india carved out for Muslims, a bad thing of appeasement done by Marxists, actually made the people not progress; and there was a net Hindu/Christian migration out of the district)

    Also there is some element of truth in (2). Several boys who were arrested in connection with their Kashmir progarm and attending Pakistani terror camps did indicate how they were brainwashed by Mullahs; an some Mullahs are also arrested.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Gopi,
    Which of my arguement do you think are false as you are agreeing with most of the Syed’s arguement?

    The muslim intolerance is also due to back-bending attitude of non-muslims. There are one set of expectations from non-muslims and totally different from non-muslims.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @ syed and rajeev, let a rationalist and humanist enter the debate animostity hindu vs muslim.
    There is ON BOTH SIDES , no point in denying it.The quest is for look for the reasons.
    I think HINDUS perceive MUSLIMS as conquerors , foreigners WHO HAD SUBJUGATED AND HUMILIATED them .In another plane OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of muslims ARE LOW CASTE HINDU CONVERT. If you think about dalits and how they fare in the hands of hindus , the understanding becomes easy.
    Also IN MODERN TIMES ISLAM AND MUSLIM countries HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW TO THE WORLD, infact by clinging on to the garbage of obscurantism WHICH EVERYBODY ELSE SANS ISLAM have JUNKED , makes them a freak.
    Also Islamic history is full of FATRICIDE AND PATRICIDE , makes ordinary folks become prejudicial.
    Also some practices like HALAL colours the opinion about islam and by extension muslims.
    Then THERE IS EXAMPLE OF HINDUS DWINDLING POPULATION IN BANGLADESH and near EXTINCT IN PAKISTAN.
    ON TOP OF EVERY THING IS MONEY , you drive into any thickly populated HINDU MOHALLA on your PORSCHE PRIMIERA(which I have a secret desire to own one day) ALL HINDU NEIGHBOURS WILL BE COMPETING TO INVITE YOU IN THEIR HOUSE.
    I bet ALL THE KHANS ,only hobnob with MITTALS, AMBANIS , SWARAJPAUL(aamir khan’s jaunt in UK)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    Rather than making general arguements, we should concentrate on how muslims percieve other faiths. What kind of words do they use for other faiths? What makes them disrespect other faiths? Why they want Nizam-e-mustafa? Why do they consider Islam the only true religion? Why does their Azaan say “there is no GOD but Allah”. What is the need to reject others’ god to confirm their faith in ALLAH?
    Why do muslims indulge in cow-meat eating evenif it is not required by Islam? Why do they consider Aurangzeb better than Dara Shikoh or Akbar? Why do they keep telling lies that muslims ruled over hindus for 1000 years whereas truth is that they ruled for close to 500-600 that too with the help of rajput. Why are there Indian origin muslims who insist on their foreign ancestory implying that hindus and hindu blood are inferior? Why don’t they accept prasad from temple?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims indulge in cow-meat eating

    because cow meat is cheap.even poor bengali hindus are eating cows.i have seen brhmns eating cow.cow was respected because brhmns brought her with them.cow eating was band by hindus not by vedics.they were cow eaters.but i like it .animal has right to live and respected like us.
    there is no GOD but Allah”. What is the need to reject others’ god to confirm their faith in ALLAH

    our ways are different.what is ur problem.

    Why do they keep telling lies that muslims ruled over hindus for 1000 years whereas truth is that they ruled for close to 500-600 that too with the help of

    they never ruled over they managed india and hindus(brhmns)were their ally and main benefeciary of their rule.there was no movement against them even underground by vedics.till british came ,then they change their loyality and became clerc in british companies.time is`around 800-100 rears.

    shan one lie u spoke when u said that england is secular.bullshit.

    why tony blair has to hide his real faith.and converted to catholiscism after leaving office.a caatholic cannot primeminister and and advisor of the queen.it means it is not secular but protestent christian country.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Aurangzeb better than Dara Shikoh or Akbar

    because he was winner inspite of fact shahjahan gave him entire wealth of india.actually muslims dont care much.but hate him on the instruction of britishers,aurangzeb made india an economic superpower so poors were praising him.

    Rajeev Reply:

    “aurangzeb made india an economic superpower”..
    You sure are delusional…

    raj Reply:

    @ram, Aurangzeb better than Dara Shikoh or Akbar

    — sorry , british were better than all these 3, other wise india would hv been islamic country.

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev , the answer is bloody simple. when you are down and out first response is DENIAL of reality, YOU LIVE IN THE PAST BECAUSE THE PRESENT IS TOO PAINFUL TO BEAR.Though the hold of clergy is EXTREEME in ISLAM,but as syed pointed out in its inception there was no conception of Clergy.The moment there is a COUNTER CULTURE, the entire islamic world will be transformed. but that is not before THE OIL DRIES OUT OR A ALTERNATIVE IS FOUND. till then the crapwillcontinue. . As to No god thing , JEWISH Wahey will give Allah run for its money.The problem is Islam is led by pig(oops) heads, this no god should be interpreted as one god , and then extend it even further by saying all gods are allah meaning God and you want to worship allah , you can go to anywhere anf will find allah THEREFORE NO NEED OF RECITING TAUBA(read my post above regarding deobandi web site)

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Rajeev your comment about protest against george bush is lopsided.MORE HINDUS THAN MUSLIMS PROTESTED(albeit lefties).Infact george bush recently cancelled his visit to geneva because a swiss (gora) had moved swiss court for his arrest or trial for war crimes in iraq
    @syed, you simply cannot getaway from the fact THAT THERE IS NO REFORM MOVEMENT IN MUSLIM RELIGION, and if you stick to the obscurantism and BAR RATIONALITY , and RECOILwithin ISLAM to answer all your queries ,then as the english saying goes “You get what you pay”

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You mean hindus with communist mindset. Actually hindu seculars also called socialists and communist played in the hands of jew hating muslims and took active part in irrational protest.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Also let us not forget attack on Akshardham and Sankat Mochan temple..then recently at Ghat in Varanasi.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    they were attacked by rss.not by muslims.main mahant of akhjshardham was very angry with modi.kps resigned because of this.why any muslim will attack akshardham.modi was running money extraction bussines.why perpetuators were killed.could be captured easily.to tell the whole story.
    this was also abhinav bhart.pressurizing govt.to release their gang.but now mohan bhagwat himself want complete and thorogh enquiry.days ahead for these terrorists is not very bright.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    Here is an example of Conspiracy theory.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    no why perpetuators were killed when they could be arrested.consipary theory. is right.truth should not be afraid of investigation.during nda regime this was daily game.u will bring kashmiri muslims from jail leave them and then kill them .
    then make news that terrorist is kil;led.if u know he was terriorist ,why u killed him.if advocate will take their cases ,u will beat.so that truth shoulnot come out.

    lekin,

    bhagwan ke ghar der hai undher nhin hai.

  • http://- Rajeev

    Gopi,
    As your are from kerela? can you tell us-
    1. Why Moplah riots happened?
    2. What happened during those riots?
    3. How was these riots described by national leaders?
    4. What does Moplah mean and why?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Rajeev

    One thing many Indians do not know is that ISlam came to Inia first in the Malabar region of the present day Kerala, long before bin Quasim invaded in the north. Muslims from Arabia came as traders immeiately after and before the prophet, married and setttled. The word “moplah” came, experts say, from mappilai, a Tamil word for son-in-law. The first mosque in India is in Cranganore, or modern day Kodungalloor, built in 700 or so.

    Kerala will become the next Kashmir, thanks to terrorism by some Muslims, appeasement by both leftist and ccongress govts, ISI intrusion into the open political process and its taking advantage of the acceptance of Muslim league as a legitimate and influential political party. Secularists complaining about Sangh Parivar activities in India driving Muslims into terrorism are simply wrong. There is no BJP or Sangh Parivar to speak of in Kerala, they do not have a single assembly seat, they do not lead any municipalities; where as Muslim league runs several Municipalities, they have 27 MLAs, and with Muslim members belonging to other parties, Muslims have 42 in a 133 seat assembly. More on this in another blog.

    More on Marad riots also later. No national news covered this. What Muslims did was unpardonable, only in secular India something like this will happen. Ak Antony, then chief minister (2003), made a statement criticizing minorities, that they are taking undue advantage of the constitution, that they are making majority marginalized, etc (I will have more in ur write up about Marad) As a result of that, Antony had to resign because the congress high command decided that he cannot be the chief minister because he said the truth. Leaders of congress and the Muslim league and the leftist parties criticized that he has become an advocate for saffron causes (although Kerala does not have a saffromn party). More on this later.

    Coming to Moplah riots of 1921.. You can say, in a sense, it was the culmination of Islamization in Malabar started with the murders and looting and conversion by Tipu Sultan a century ago, in 1820. Tipu’s “padayottam” ( rapid war) is a black chapter in Keralas history. More on this also later.

    The moplah riots happened in Kerala/Malabar at the tail end of Khilafet movement. Khilafet movement,a s you know, was started by Ali brothers with three objectives 1) To restore Turkish califate 2) To ensure British protect Mecca and Madina after the first world war/destruction of Caliphate and 3) to get Muslim leaders invited to London to settle Muslim grievance. (why should Indian Muslims be concermed about Turkey, figure it out!)

    Until then Muslims were not active in the independence movement. Mahatma Gandhi, being a shrewed politician, decided to cooperate with Muslims in the Khilafet if Muslims will join the freedom movement, so the freedom movement was all of Indians’, not kjust non-Muslims’.

    A violence-free Khialfet movement turned violent in its later years, partly because the Turkish issue was “solved” by Mustafa Kamal Pasha. One Ali Musliyar,a Mullah Khialfet guy in Tirur (in the present day Malappuram district) started a rumor that Delhi has been captured by calipahte, british are gone from Delhi. Muslims wanted to celebrate this new regaining of power; an orgy of violence started; with Muslims raping, killing, looting from Tirur to Mangalore (most of Malabar). Temples were desecrated, high castehindu women were raped in front of their husbands an brothers, hundreds of thousands were converted. British was unprepared to handle this violence; Annie Besant visited Malabar after this and reported to the Governor General. As a result of this incident, British formed Malabar Special Police (MSP) to manage inter-religious riots in the Madras state.

    Mahathma Gandhi/Congress cut off from khilafet after this, and another incident of killing policemen in centarl India.

    (a high caste family who was forcefully converted, at that time, later reconverted in 1950, Ramabhadran (new name after reconversion) and his family were murdered by Muslims (in independent India) and the Marxist government did not let the case proceed on various technicalities; obviously to appease the Muslim community)… google ramabhadran case

    Kumaran Aasan, one of the most respected poets of that era in kerala (happens to be a backward caste Hindu) wrote a poem “Duravastha” (“Sad situation) about a Namboodiri girl who was raped by Msulims and forecfully converted, a real life situation.

    The Marxist government in 2000s declared that Moplah Riot was an agrarian revolution (screw Hindus who w ere converted and whose property was taken over by Muslims) ; and that Kumaran Aasan’s poem was reactionary,a nd triggering communal tensions and riots; they banned it as a text book for graduate and post graduate progarmmes.

    Marxists in an earlier appeasement role in 1960s, carved out Malappuram as the first “Muslim” district in India. A 60/40 Muslim/others region now is 90/10; because others have fled based on fear, property “encirclement” etc.

    Marxists never got Muslim votes after all these appeasement, including their latest, the support to Abdus Samad Madani.

    Will address Marad, Tippu etc later. For people who are interested in history, Tippu is the only Indian ruler who destroyed catholic churches and converted Christians into Muslims (may be these Christians may be the only people in the world who underwent two conversions!).

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Rajeev

    The reconversion murder case I mentioned is “Ramasimhan case” , not Ramabhadran. Sorry for my mistake.
    GT

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Also Rajeev, the term “Moplah rebellion” is a misnomer..it should have been Moplah riots…
    It is “mappila lahala” in Malayalam, Lahala is more a riot rather than a rebellion; however by translating it to “rebellion” it made it easy for future politicians and secular historians like Thapar to classify it as an agrarian revolution!

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    shan, read your statement-
    “”"”"”"”there are 27(yes you have read it correct ) DOCTORS in our family at last count. My relatives are in Yale and some in high places in India and UK.”"”"”"!!!!!!

    Again a cheap irrelevant boast, no one is interested in how many docs in family or Yale. Your thoughts and the way you condust yourself here is imp.

    I have never heard of a doctor calling others circumcised (ravi), dick (mishra), talebani etc.
    You are disgusting and a discredit to the wonderful medical community.
    Goodbye

    shan Reply:

    @raju Kurien AMSTERDAM is world famous , it has an area which is a TOURIST ATTRACTION , where there are rows and rows of brothel where girls semi naked can be seen through the glass panes. NO TOURIST IS ALLOWED TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Another gem from kerala-
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/may/09rajeev.htm
    Moplah Rebellion, Part II: Hindus massacred on Maraad Beach

    May 09, 2003

    The reported facts about the incident in Maraad, Kozhikode, Kerala, are as follows.

    A group of Hindu fishermen sitting on the beach near a temple is attacked suddenly, without provocation or warning, by a mob of Muslims armed with swords. After a chaotic ten minutes, nine people are dead or bleeding to death on the beach. Many are seriously wounded. The attackers vanish into the night.
    A cache of swords and other sharp weapons, including blood-stained ones, as well as powerful country bombs is recovered from a mosque in the vicinity.
    Various politicians make soothing noises, 66 persons have been arrested in connection with the crime. A judicial inquiry has been instituted.
    The dead are: Gopalan, Chandran, Santosh, Madhavan, Asghar, Dasan, Pushparaj, Krishnan, and Prajeesh. One of them had been married for just five days.
    I am basing this analysis on reports in the Malayalam media (eg: http://www.keralakaumudi.com). I find the local media to be far more accurate and less prejudiced than the English language media in most cases.

    Consider the circumstances: the attack happened on a Friday, and it was directed at those sitting near a Hindu temple. First, almost all Muslim-initiated riots in India take place on Fridays, after the faithful have heard sermons in the local mosque.

    Second, killing Hindus near a Hindu temple is guaranteed to be offensive; if there is any chance of a communal riot developing, this is an excellent way of triggering it.

    This was a mini-Godhra: a murderous attack on Hindus. I have no idea who was behind it, perhaps Pakistanis, or perhaps it was merely local Moplah Muslims. After all, the Moplahs of Malabar did not need any Pakistani inspiration when they launched into the terrible riots of 1921 (the Moplah Rebellion) when they, without provocation, murdered, raped, and forcibly converted thousands of Hindus, just because distant Turkey had abolished the Caliphate.

    What was the objective this time? Possibly to create a communal riot along the lines of what happened in Gujarat in the wake of the Godhra massacre. Perhaps to emphasise that in Muslim-dominated Malabar, as in Bangladesh and Kashmir, it is just fine to murder Hindus. The perpetrators — whoever they are — are confident that there will be no consequences.

    What is likely to happen? Not much. Frightened Hindus will move some place safer, and one more piece of real estate will become dar-ul Islam, land of Muslims. This has been happening in other parts of Malabar, for example Muslim-majority Malappuram district, where Hindus are leaving for less dangerous places. Yes, the famed Nehruvian Stalinist ’secularism’ in action, yet again.

    Hindus in Kerala have declined in numbers, and this is what happens to non-Muslims when the Muslim population reaches a critical mass: decimation. When Semitic religions hold sway, they brutalise minorities. We have the examples of Muslim intolerance in Jammu & Kashmir and Christian intolerance in the Northeast. Hindus have a simple choice: convert, die or flee. And Kerala’s Hindus are running out of places to flee to. We may end up in squalid refugee camps like the Pandits.

    I have observed over the years the changes in Islam in Kerala. When I was a child, the Muslims I knew were relatively non-observant; the men sported no beards or skullcaps, the women wore saris and they merely drew the pallu demurely over their heads. Today, in Malabar there are large numbers of bearded men with skullcaps and women in all-enveloping black burqas. Astonishingly, even in southern Kerala, I have seen billboards advertising ‘burqa fashions.’

    I have also watched the growth of mosques in Kerala. In one stretch of the national highway between Kollam and Trivandrum, there are five huge mosques within the space of just one mile, and all but one have come up in the recent past, maybe ten years. You see scores of young boys with skullcaps and scores of little girls with headscarves going to the local madrassa, I imagine.

    Much has happened in Kerala to bring these changes about. One is that the fragmented politics of Kerala has enabled smallish groups to wield disproportionate influence. As an example, various governments in Kerala, dependent on the support of the Muslim League, have allocated tracts of public land to it: startlingly, right in the middle of the famous Kovalam beach, there is now a large mosque on what was public property.

    Furthermore, enormous amounts of Saudi and other Muslim fundamentalist money have apparently come into Kerala. A banker I know told me of crores of rupees in transfers for instance to the Guruvayoor area (which, despite the Krishna temple, is heavily Muslim). He told me that nationalised banks in India are willing to provide Islamic banking to large customers: that is, they happily pay them no interest according to Islamic law, and are therefore quite content to ask no inconvenient questions.

    These inward flows have resulted in all these real-estate acquisitions and the radicalisation of Kerala’s Muslims. They otherwise have no particular reason to feel discriminated against or oppressed, for they have had more than their fair share of jobs, opportunities and other entitlements. Kerala’s Muslims certainly live better than Muslims in Pakistan, and they have done well for themselves. There are plenty of well-educated and well-employed Muslim doctors, engineers, IAS officers, lawyers, writers, teachers, etc.

    If these educated and privileged Muslims turn so violently against their Hindu neighbours, there is no hope for Hindu-Muslim amity anywhere else in India. The two-nation theory has won, and Jinnah was right.

    For Kerala has always treated Muslims well, and it is indeed God’s own country for them. From pre-Islamic times, Arabs came to Kerala to trade, their dhows following the monsoon winds across the Arabian Sea. Islam first came to India — and that too, peacefully — to Kerala, where the first mosque in India, the Cheraman mosque, apparently built in the 7th or 8th century CE, stands at the great old port of Kodungalloor (the Roman Muziris).

    Muslims came as sailors, married local women and stayed on: the very word ‘Moplah’ means ’son-in-law.’ The Zamorin of Calicut had Muslims in his navy, including the famous commander Kunjali Marikkar. But most Muslims in Kerala have no Arab blood, and they are the descendents of Hindus forcibly converted during Tipu Sultan’s invasion of Malabar. This alleged freedom-fighter was a fearsome jihadi: relatives of mine have family histories of fleeing from Malabar to the princely state of Cochin to avoid him. Even today ‘Tipu’s padayottam’ (march) is remembered in the racial memory of Kerala Hindus as a catastrophe spoken of in hushed tones.

    Yet, relations have generally been good between Hindus and Muslims in Kerala. So much so that at what might be the most important temple in Kerala, Sabarimala, pilgrims visit the patron deity Lord Ayyappan after paying obeisance at the shrine of his friend, the Muslim Vavar. On one of my pilgrimages to Sabarimala, I met a Muslim who was making the pilgrimage up that steep hill with his Hindu friends.

    And Vaikom Mohammed Basheer was one of the most beloved Malayalam writers of the last one hundred years.

    With all this, a Maraad happens. The only plausible reason for Muslim violence is sheer religious bigotry, an unreasoning jihad. It is difficult to deal with this through reason.

    I wonder what the world’s reaction would have been if the situation were reversed and a Hindu mob had killed nine Muslims in front of a mosque. Surely Kuldip Nayar and Praful Bidwai would not have been thunderously silent: they would have badgered the National Human Rights Commission. The Washington Post and The New York Times, not to mention The Times of India, The Hindustan Times, The Indian Express and the Hindu, would have indulged in en masse breastbeating about the end of civilisation in India.

    But I bet, gentle reader, that this is the first time you have heard of the Maraad massacre. This I call blatant prejudice and double-standards on the part of the media. Where is the outrage? Where are the cries for justice?

    Furthermore, if by some miracle, Muslim perpetrators in Maraad are brought to book, Nayar and Bidwai will bestir themselves to defend them, along with SAHMAT, Teesta Setalvad, and Shabana Azmi. I wonder why it isn’t clear to them that the human rights of the outlaw and the terrorist are not greater than the human rights of the ordinary citizen.

    But I forget, Hindus are expendable. Hindus were expendable in Malabar during the Moplah Rebellion, part I; they were expendable in Hyderabad when Razakars (armed Muslim men) went on the warpath around the time of Partition. The Razakars were quelled with overwhelming force by the Indian Army.

    It appears that Muslim terrorism can only be averted by brute force: appeasement and turning the other cheek do not work. The only way to prevent more Godhras is to keep Muslim terrorists in check. The question is, who dares bell the cat? If not the government, then vigilantes will take over; which is what happened in Gujarat, after all.

    India needs to put down its home-grown terrorists with force, and it needs to help Pakistanis feel some pain through substantial covert action. If Indian counter-terrorism blows up a few important Pakistanis, or engineers riots against the imperial Punjabis, their taste for adventurism will diminish. Otherwise, these poor Hindus of Maraad would have died in vain, butchered in front of their place of worship.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    Why was Kayasthana road renamed as Rizvi road?

    Why was SDM pathak shot dead by muslims? If you don’t know about local area, don’t talk about it.

    these are administrative problem.those who commited voilence should be punished as per law of land.why u are communalizing something which happens evryday in india.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    No, these are not administrative problem. There was no need to rename the road. It was done to erase hindu history of that road.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Spent a whole day at work and come back to find the blog burning. Take out my glass of wine and try to join in-

    Summary so far-

    1. Rajeev seems very upset over muslim riots against hindus. He has given examples of Deganga in Assam and Marrad in Kerala. There is Godhra-Gujrat and Kandamal and Kashmiri pandits also, but I think his point is well taken-
    Indian posh media (English speaking or NDTV) tends to ignore attacks on hindus. Fact.

    2. But more imp to look on India as a whole and look on victims as Indians. Mete out harsh punishment to looters AND BE SEEN TO BE DOING SO.

    3. I have said in my previous posts, that local Islamist and Pak inspired/ encouraged/ initiated violence is intertwined, so Pak needs must be taken into the equation. I quote from the article in rediff that Rajeev posted- ……….India needs to put down its home-grown terrorists with force, and it needs to help Pakistanis feel some pain through substantial covert action. If Indian counter-terrorism blows up a few important Pakistanis, or engineers riots against the imperial Punjabis, their taste for adventurism will diminish. ……………..

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    contd-

    4. Gopi, I love your posts and continue to learn from them- ………Kerala has several statewide celebrations, orginated from hindu mythology, but now celebrated as universal/secular state celeb such as Onam, Vishu (malayalam new year), snake boat festival etc also dance forms such as Mohini Attam, kathakali etc. Muslims do not particiapte in the state festivals like snake boat race, Onam etc; neither their children learn the dances. Christians have integrated well in these aspects, never diminishing their Christianity…..

    5. Syed bhai you said- ..Hindus and muslims of the same economic levels are equally educated….
    NOT TRUE SIR, not true at all.
    At the heart of every underachieving community, anywhere in the world, is a lack of quality education, whether not provided (eg Aborigines in Australia) or not availed of (eg Muslims). Whether it was Sir Syed Ahmed in 1800s or Sachar report recently, muslim undereduaction is the dominant theme.
    I have extensively covered gross muslim shool failures in UK in the Modi goodwill hunting blog. It also mirrors my personal experience in several small cities in UP, where far MORE hindus escape the poverty trap than do muslims.
    Throughout 1000 byears of very turbulent history in India with Islamic invasion and European colonisation, the hindus and later their Sikh brothers kept the flame of education burning bright.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    contd
    6. ramavtar, my UP bhai, your posts are much better now (I see a lot less anti brahmin/ high caste bashing- lol) but pl do be open to genuine criticism the radical end of the muslim spectrum- I mean you do not have to defend Aurangzeb so blindly.

    Still the best lines in the blog go to you today-
    “there should be an agitation at all india level,that EDUCATION SHOULD BE THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN.EDUCATION SHOULD BE FREE AND GOOD.WITH TRILLION DOLLAR ECONOMY WE CAN EASILY AFFORD THIS.”

    Bravo ramavtar

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    contd
    7. an interesting conversation between shan and Sandhu-

    Sandhu- ” hindu characterstic- corruption????????” Shan, I was not aware that Pakistan and Congo were hindu.
    Shan- @balwinder,have you read a book called THY HAND GREAT ANARCH, it says hindus are more corrupt.

    My take on this Shan, is why do we have to quote losers like Nirad Chowdhury, who while being brilliant writers were very self hating, defeatist and nihilistic. His aping and lapdog admiration of the British empire was beyond embarrassing.

    It still leaves the original question unanswered, if hinoos are very corrupt, then who lives in Pakistan and Congo.
    Thank you all- ramavtar, Gopi, Syed, Sandhu, Rajeev- and others for a very interseting blog.
    The wine tastes so much better- I have faith in India and Indians, we will pull through. Good night.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Dick Mishra , It is for the people like Nirad choudhuri , india is what it is today , COWBELT has not to date produced anybody near his towering intellect. HE CALLED SPADE A SPADE , left it to Mishras ,pandeys and tripathi and sharmas INDIA WOULD HAVE BEEN STILL APPLYING COW DUNG TO BABY’S UMBILICUS CAUSING NEONATAL TETANUS. more fundamentally it made INDIA RATIONAL AND ACCEPT WESTERN CIVILIZATION WAS FAR SUPERIOR , YOU DONT DENY AND BECOME ISLAMIC THEOCRACY , IN THIS CASE RSS THEOCRACY, BUT IMMITATE AND IN THE PROCESS CATCH UP LIKE THE JAPANESE DID.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    [1. Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith less respect it for the fear of committing Shirk. – False – how many temples have you seen desecrated in the last couple of years?]
    There are many incidents but let us stick to deganga riots.
    Hmmm, deganga. Ok, lets go to another small place near ranthambore, where horror of horrors, a muslim is constructing a mandir. Now whatever will the mullas say. He will be bumped off for sure! Astagfirullah & all that!
    http://www.ummid.com/news/2011/January/21.01.2011/mumbai_based_muslim_builds_mandir.htm

    [2. Mullah’s control over minds of masses –
    The congress has lost badly in UP and is projected to get only 8 seats in the forthcoming UP assembly elections as per its own projections. If mullas can control muslim minds to such a nicety, then why cannot the Madanis of deoband who are open congress supporters garner more muslim votes for the congress? Just amazing, muslims have their own mind...

    [3. Khutba in mosque is laced with politics and propganda – propaganda like 9/11 done by US or 26/11 done by RSS Mossad.
    FYI there is no 9/11 or mossad propaganda in mosques. Why dont you ask the average muslim worker on the street who may be a barber or mechanic what is Mossad. 100% he will give you a blank look.

    [4. Invention of conspiracy theories for every problem – Not so in India.]
    It happens in India too…Not in my opinion.

    [5. Unified hatred for jews and hindus. – Indian muslims are not bothered about jews.
    Again untrue. Why did muslims protest against George Bush? Whom do Indian muslims support in Israeli-palestinian conflict? Is the support for palestine not based on islamic brotherhood.-- You are making the standard mistake - Taking what the muslim "leaders" say as the opinion of the entire community, when I have proved at [2] that muslims do not bother about their “leaders”.

    [6. low educational level: True but is it religion or economics? Hindus and muslims of the same economic levels are equally educated.]
    Low education combined with intolerant fanatic mind is very dangerous how many terrorist muslims are there in the third largest muslim population in the world? I would say there are more in hindus.

    [7. Sense of security among fellow muslims: True especially after the gujarat riots but much less now.]
    You should have noticed that hindus too moved out of muslims areas due to fear..so feeling is mutual. There is another conspiracy theory how karsevaks tried to rape a muslim women…This is not a conspiracy theory. I myself read the story in the Times of India and it was described aby a railway official.

    [8. Desire to see whole world Islamised leading to smaller worlds called muslim ghettos.: How do you know that? Not among the many muslims.]
    Now being a muslim you would not notice that. When someone converts to islam, the kind of comments clearly state that muslims want whole world islamised. Where do you read these comments. On a mslim religious website? Figures.

    The kashmiri muslims are asking for Nizam-e-Mustafa..Why? – Kashmiri muslims are in a different world of their own and not al all connected with the rest of indian muslims in any way.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Syed,

    ” Kashmiri muslims are in a different world of their own and not al all connected with the rest of indian muslims in any way.”

    Just curious to know why. Why and how a Panjabi Muslim (from Pak) is closer to them than a
    Muslim from UP? (Both cultures are different to them. Does skin colour matter?)

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay,SKIN COLOUR MATTERSLIKE HELL , just reflect on the MOHAJIRS in pakistan , all packed into slums the famous one is inkarachi called ORANGI, THEY ARE TOO DARK FOR A PATHAN OR PUNJABIS LIKING. tariq ali in his book the nehrus and gandhis writes that there was a common saying in the pak army that THEY WERE GOING TO BANGLADESH TO IMPROVE THE BREED OF THE NATION , islamic brotherhood , quom MY FOOT.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @rajeev
    “No, these are not administrative problem. There was no need to rename the road. It was done to erase hindu history of that road.”

    You want me to give you a list of roads in old lucknow which have been renamed after hindus?? However we do not see religion into it as you are doing.
    In fact decades ago you will be aware, there was even a proposal to rename lucknow as Lakshmanpuri! That is when the entire population of lucknow stood united against the change and the govt bactracked.
    This is the basic difference between lucknow and kanpur, the cities are so close yet poles apart.

    now to work…

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Rajeev, interesting posts. Here in UK one is a bit cut off. Can I make a request, pl edit these cut and pastes, the punters here can read the original stuff on the weblink provided.
    same for u ramavtar, reduce your cut and paste by 90%, you make one or two good points that get hidden in your avalanche.

    @Shan, you always strike a discordant note. You spout anti muslim gibberish all the time and accuse others of being antimuslim- you try and pass it off by giving a ‘rationalist slant’, You also have made some of the stupidest generalisations about tamils, sikhs etc in these blogs.

    When cornered you indulge in cheap name calling- circumcised Ravi, dick misra, talebani etc. You lower the tone of this blog. I have said before, you lack the dignity and sobriety of thought one associates with doctors.
    You sound like one of those SC/ST docs who have got a mbbs seat on reservation. You then carry this massive chip on yr shoulder about us more affluent communities who gave you this reservation in the first place.
    Your comment about driving a bmw car is cheap boasting as is yr throwing around boasts of doing cholectemy etc- like a cheap boast in a nightclub to pick up girls. Noone is impressed here.
    Grow up

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Noone git like Balwinder sandhu , For your kind information I am not a SC/ST , there are 27(yes you have read it correct ) DOCTORS in our family at last count. My relatives are in Yale and some in high places in India and UK. Just because I have homed in some HOME TRUTHS regarding sikhs in UK you have been riled.Then I am not here to exchange platitudes , people who been visiting these blogs know me well , and my admirer have been far and wide including an yank , the reference can be pulled from the archives in HT.So just keep your gob shut.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @ram, your islamic paradise of indonesia, is not as you project here
    Indonesia is no longer a poster child for pluralism
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/18/indonesia-pluralism-persecution-ahmadiyah

    nor does islamist look good in uk
    Lessons in Hate and Violence, a number of newspapers ran articles about the extremism and abuse in some mosques and madrassas.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/17/lessons-in-hate-and-violence-muslim-extremism
    The Dispatches episode serves as a reminder that there has been little lasting, real political, civil or religious change in Muslim communities even with – or perhaps despite – the plethora of Muslim groups at their disposal.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @hey ram, shan they are victims of our system.we must ashamed of this.instead of searching their religious identity.

    — but a few few blogs back you (and ravi) never missed to mention devadasi & hindu prostitution. now when proved more muslims are involved in postitution, you change the tune. sudden compasion ?

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Raj,

    Will second you in opposing double standards.

    Secular people refuse to accept Godhra train incident as the main reason for Gujarat riots. They would say, there was a systematic poisoning of Gujarati Hindu minds which made them act communal.
    When the topic is “Islamic Jihad” (which has been running for decades, not for weeks or months) people would point at US support to Afghan (Islamic) fighters during cold war as the major cause.

    They should stick to one stand. They should either say Godhra train was the major cause of Gujarat riots or Pak already had poisoned muslim minds which made them easy target for a call of Islamic Jihad.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    All the self hating, defeatist pseudo secularists of the hindu and sikh community are, to my mind, AS DETRIMENTAL TO THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY AS THE islamic militants.

    They only serve to appeal to the more fundamentalist fringe of the muslim community who then withdraw into the ghettoes of their minds and prevent a cool breeze of scientific introspection from blowing through the muslim community.

    To a man, every one of my muslim friends here had breathed a sigh of relief at the Ayodhya verdict. To a man, they were disgusted by Teesta and Barkha Dutt raking it up on tv, see the scorn they poured on the verdict and on the panellists who supported it.

    What I a sikh, and all other minorities like muslims need is a strong and secure majority which looks after the minorities better, when we need it.

    This anger is directed at the self hating, defeatist pseudo secularists of the hindu and sikh community on this blog. They know who they are. Piss off, we minorities do not need your poison

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    The damage done to India by “secularists” is beyond repair. Romilla Thapar, Mahesh Bhatt etc have done irrepairable damage. You combine that with socialists — recipe for disaster.

    West Bengal is in its abysmal situation because of the deadly combination of socialists and “seculariist/intellectuals”. And they are going around the country tabulating how the Indian polity is estroying minorities or poor.

    Never have they one anything to organize against the bureaucracy that is the root of 90% of our issues.. Yack, yack about this politician or that politician; never about how things can be improved.

    People like them have kept a large section of Muslims and poor people permanently marginalized. Because they wont have anybody to “appease” if they improve. They tried their best for Muslims to riot after Babri verict. They said these poor people will vote for congress in Bihar.

    Development speaks..be it in India or Egypt.

    India can and will be the most vibrant palce – its religions, its colors, its noise, its energy. its history, its smiling children. It will be, in spite of our bureaucrats an stupid politicians.

    ram autar Reply:

    People like them have kept a large section of Muslims and poor people permanently marginalized.

    have u read rss propaganda shit.muslims dont appeasement what they want i their right.muslims are the most hard working race of india.creator of wealth.

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, WB is in abysmal state because of partition. 1.5 CRORE HINDUS moved into WB, two thousand MUSLIMS crossed over to east pakistan ,now bangladesh. not a rocket science is it. coupled with this the bengali response to this helplessness , is to take refuge in a doctrine that says “i dont mind how bad I am doing So long you are doing worse willtake away all my pain”. this doctrine is also known as communism which takes hold when there is high level of EDUCATED UNEMPLOYED. same with MUSLIMS when INFERIORITY , DEPENDENCE, HUMILATION AND DEFEAT stares at them , rather than introspect , they RECOIL COMPLETLY OBLITERATING ANY RATIONAL QUESTIONING and BLINDLY SUBMIT to every word of a particular book , this is also known by another name ,it is called ISLAM.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr balwinder,these so called psuedo seculars are doing what nationalist.our true nationaliost(so called)are trying to save those who have snatched 3 yrs old girls from the lap of their mothers.fkd them publicily till they die.then cut them into pieces to hide her identity and their crime.
    tell me balwinder if teesta and barkha are trying to bring the culprits to public attention,what wrong they are doing.hindutva is apredatory force and shame for india.
    during gujrat earthquake ,ais came from all over world.muslims were denied of aid only because of their religion.is it not a terrorist act.
    if these 2 courgeous ladies bring this to public focus ,why u oppose them.

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    ram, I was referring to Ayodhya verdict- all my muslim friends are fed up of it, they want to move on. Barkha and Mulayam were trying to stoke up the embers- koyla pey phook rahe the aag bharkaney ke liye.
    I dont fault Barkha or Teeta all the time

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder what they talk on ayodhya is right.nobody knew of ram in ayodhya till tulsidas wrote
    ramayana.then how he would been born there.the whole story is based on lies and fraud.
    has come from isreal where ramallah is city.they want to demolish muslim mosque in jerusalam.rehearsal is made here.and the way things are turning is very dangerous.it is going to be full fledge war between shiv bhakt and vishnu bhakt.ayodhya is full of shiv temple.ram is incarnation of vishnu.on 6th december vishnubhakts demolished 19 shiv temples as well.
    hindus are only 2% hated by nearly all hindu races.supreme court verdict will come in favour of muslims.as in 1947 mosque was there and registered n paqpers of patwari.
    we should fight on economic issues not on emotional issues.2%hindus are in claws of zoinists.
    jews of america have realized their mistake now opposing zoinists.
    brhmn has race no religion.brhmn can be sikh,muslim or christian at the end they are united to save their race.a brhmn girl will prefer to marry high caste muslim than to shudra of bhangee hindu.

    syed Reply:

    @B Sandhu
    “Sorry, Syed, normally I enjoy reading your posts, but this one takes the biscuit. Quite simply, the world over, from small mohallas in India to the muslim majority countries to the Islamic concentrations in Europe and Africa, no other community has a larger proportion of men indulging in violence, mostly in the name of the religion.”

    Ok, in the last couple of years in India pl check how many terrorist attacks have been committed by indian hindus and those by indian muslims. Similarly the number of terrorists and their religions.

    This blog is primarily on India!

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @ ram avtar- If I want a strong and prosperous Punjab, then the SIKHS have to be proud and strong, ramavtar. They will sort out the Bhindranwales in their midst.
    Similarly, for India to be strong, hindus have to be strong and secure. Only then can they fight against Pakistan from without and from within this lot- SIMI, Indian mujahedeen, ULFA, NSCN, MAOSISTS, Dawood, khalistanis and Purohits in their midst

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    SYED, you said above- ……Low education combined with intolerant fanatic mind is very dangerous how many terrorist muslims are there in the third largest muslim population in the world? I would say there are more in hindus.”"

    Sorry, Syed, normally I enjoy reading your posts, but this one takes the biscuit. Quite simply, the world over, from small mohallas in India to the muslim majority countries to the Islamic concentrations in Europe and Africa, no other community has a larger proportion of men indulging in violence, mostly in the name of the religion.

    EVEN KERALA, the last bastion of muslim pride and education regressing. For god’s sake, they cut off the hand of a christian becoz of some question about muhd in an exam paper- I mean how brutal is that. There are a lot of murmurs of stacking of arms in mosques in Kerala

    ram autar Reply:

    EVEN KERALA, the last bastion of muslim pride and education regressing. For god’s sake, they cut off the hand of a christian becoz of some question about muhd in an exam paper- I mean how brutal is that. There are a lot of murmurs of stacking of arms in mosques in Kerala

    this man is evil.after studying his deeds even his christian school supended him.he repeatedly wrote bad words about prophet.chpping hand was not good.but sometime words pierces into heart like sword and u cannot bear.keral christians were poorest of poor,made money in muslim countries.nobody ever made tried to hurt them because of their faith.

    shan Reply:

    @Sandhu , the delusional , its pot calling the kettle black, does the names BABBAR KHALSA , KHALISTAN LIBERATION FORCE ring a bell , and how many hindus they slaughtered not to mention the vilest gaddari where the body guard entrusted to protect you guns you down AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SALMAN TASSER INCIDENT

  • Binoy Hegde

    Regarding Sri Azim Premji’s $2billion fund for improving schools and some interesting programs…
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/business/global/18teach.html

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @ SHAN-

    another of your gems just came to my attention, you boasted- ” my comments have been admired even by an American here in this blog.”

    SICKENING INFERIORITY COMPLEX, running down your own community while lapping up some praise from some yank.

    Still did not answer my question- DOES ANY DOCTOR USE CHEAP NAME CALLING AND ABUSE to others in this blog. You lack the grace and dignity one associates with doctors.
    Goodbye

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @B S, having lived in uk surrounded by your folks , one thing i have learn , unless it is firangi ,it wont do for folks like you.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Gopi, Vinay, Shan, Balwinder, Syed, Raju and others,
    I must say your replies were very enriching. Infact, I realised that there are many ills for which secular brigade is more responsible than muslims. You will be surprised to know that I come from a Sufi family but some events have made me question muslim behaviour. It’s a reality that muslims are discriminated against and I want them to enjoy all the benefits just like everyone. However I get ticked off when they bring Islam into everything even when they ask for benefits. Poverty has no religion. Why don’t they say that there is no casteism in Islam but give us some reservation based on poverty? I have seen muslims making fun of hindus on casteism and rightly so but how can they use same caste system to get reservation.

    - I find some of Syed’s replies evasive. I’ll reply him when time permits.
    - Gopi, as always I expected a straight answer from you and got one. The secular hypocrisy on Moplah riots and continuous increase in muslim fundamentalism in Kerela (they don’t have poverty excuse here) is truly shocking.
    - Vinay, You have agreed with me on many points but in your own way.
    - Balwinder – Paaji, I take your advise on cut and paste but sometimes that is the only way to shut up imposters like Ram Autar and Ravi.

    I’d love to reply to all your posts but I am tied up with some work. Logging off for this week.

    syed Reply:

    Mishra jee
    “In my post below I will make no attempt to differentiate between Pak inspired attacks or local Isamist attacks for often the 2 are intertwined.-”
    Sorry, indian muslims cannot be held responsible for terrorist attackks committed by pakistanis.

    “All this triggered a reactionary saffron terror on Samjhauta express etc of late. So, evil though the saffron/ hindutva attacks are, one must recognise that they are **reactionary**. ”

    “Reactionary” is an extremely dangerous word. Terrorist attacks started in India in the aftermath of the destruction of the babri masjid. So a muslim terrorist can also use the argument that his action is a “reaction” to a certain issue(s) and hence justified.
    Bottom line .. NO terrorist attack can ever be justified as through its very definition innocents are hurt/killed.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    from wikipedia-
    However, Ahmadiyya as a controversial religious minority in Indonesia has only risen sharply in the 2000s with a rise of Islamic fundamentalism. In 2008, many Muslims in Indonesia protested against the Ahmadiyya movement. With violence and large demonstrations, these religious conservatives put pressure on the government to monitor, and harass the Ahmadiyya community in Indonesia.[77]

    In June 2008, a law was passed to curtail “proselytizing” by Ahmadiyya members.[79] An Ahmadiyya mosque was burned.[80] At February 6, 2011 some Ahmadiyya members were killed at Pandeglang, Banten province.[82]

  • raj

    @ram,
    EDUCATION SHOULD BE THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN.EDUCATION SHOULD BE FREE AND GOOD.WITH TRILLION DOLLAR ECONOMY WE CAN EASILY AFFORD THIS.
    — sometime back you said hindus killed the education system. i pointed that first minister for education was a muslim & what stopped him from going for compulsary primary education, you changed the track as usual.
    problem is not money, its putting suitable pople in that job & avoid appeasement policies. even in uk, muslims ask for halal food to be served. congress will be happy to provide that than a qualified teacher.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Tonnes of money is spent on eucation. The issue is not one of money. It is apathy, corruption, lack of accountability (most teachers in rural north do not show up to teach, but just collect their paycheques)..Also that many in the system do not care about these kids, because they are from poor families, or the parents lack the courage to question.

    I believe we will have a revolution here, like the one in Egypt; but not for freedom, but against corruption and for better governance. The bureaucracy and IAS machinery have seen that everything is kept perennially bad so they can steal and get bribes from lower ranks.

    We as citizens have to start wondering what right a government has to dictate what words are used in a movie if that government cannot guarantee primary education or rinking water.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @L Mirza , this is Indian equivalent of democracy deficit in Islamic Countries. India (80%hindu) suffers from moral decripitude , NEED A MORAL REVOLUTION.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    raj,
    if maulana azad made mistake we should correct.after this 30-40 other minister came.primary education was destroyed by high caste which include muslim high caste to keep poors uneducated for ever.
    regarding halal,jews still ask for kosher hindus avoid cow.this is not apeasement.fight against corruption is must without this nothing is possible.if we want to keep india alive.otherwise the day is not far,when we will be ruled by forieners.public waaaaants good governance,they are not interested who is doing it.
    i agree with most of ur points.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    anybody following the Davis case in Pakistan?
    Looks like there are more stuff than what is in the news.. The guy kills two in broad daylight, the embassy car comes to pick him (but drives in the wrong irection and hits a pedestrian and kills him)

    There is one version that says the “robbers’ who were killed by Davis were ISI agents. Pakistan wants to keep Davis there and try, US is pulling all levers including the stoppage of aid to get him to US…

    There is something real juicy than what meets the eye – something other than the bulls—- sovereignty ..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Shan
    sonagachi (golden tree):
    Barely a few kms from esplanade. Pretty sad state of affairs over there and the 10,000+ girls are badly exploited by the police, pimps and customers. They were not able to save money and we got them to open accounts in Allahabad Bank (in the main road opp sonagachi). Things were smooth for a few months. then next we heard was that they had lost a lot of money. Seems they used to give their money to the branch manager to deposit which he never did. Then the manager died and they lost all their money.

    You will see girls even as as young as 10-12 years standing in the narrow lanes looking for customers. Reson for being there is primarily economic then of course sold by boyfriend, deserted by husband, death of husband, even sold by family for money etc.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Syed/Shan

    It is intriguing how such a big prostitution “area” was created in Calcutta and continue to be in business even now

    Mumbai being a commercial center at least is understandable.

    None of the south Indian cities have a large esignated prostitution area. There is Kodambakkam in Chennai, however it is more of a folklore and peopel passing comments about the extras conected with the movie studios there .

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed , the whole state will soon become sonagachi unless these sub human characters called COMMUNISTS are kicked out.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @raju kurien ,calcutta was not what it is now, it was the SECOND CITY OF THE EMPIRE , NEXT TO LONDON , called paris of the east. I read in a book about the second world war , the british intelligence keeping an eye on the JAPANESE ambassador, recorded he was a FREQUENT visitor to
    the FREE SCHOOL STREET area reknowned for ANGLO INDIAN PROSTITUTES with his wife waiting in the car ,for him to return after the sojourn.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Rajeev,
    Few comments regarding your opinions about Muslim community.

    1>Ghetto:
    English who move to Spain are famous for living in expat ghettos, sending their children to international schools (which teach English) and not learning Spanish.
    In India, Muslim concentration in few areas do not reflect ghettoising, as historically communities
    were settled along religious and caste lines.
    A community preferring to stay with the people of same culture/language is not Muslim psyche. It is human psyche. The reason why it gets amplified in UK is because of the contrasting cultures, conservative Muslim v/s open British.
    Gopi brings another point. Muslims who choose ghettos in Kerala do not perform as good as the ones who are mixed. I don’t think, it happens with other communities (Indians in US, English in Spain). I suppose, when economically and educationally unprivileged people are grouped together, their performance further deteriorates. (Don’t we keep seeing it in schools as well? Schools taking only good students fare even better, while government schools deteriorate even further).

    2>Absolutely no desire to understand other’s faith:
    Is it necessary to know others faith to be tolerant? Don’t think so. I don’t think most of the Hindus know anything beyond Prophet, Qoran in Islam (at least I don’t know much, I came to know of Ayesha from arguing people), Jesus/Mary/Bible in Christianity. Why should that make us hate any religion?

    3>Muslim boys going for White girls in UK:
    Social problem. Boys are grown up in a different culture. But the conservative family wants to get a girl from home country. These boys take out their frustration on a local girl, which is of course sad. Again, due to mixing of contrasting culture.

    4>It is considered Islamic to hate.., disrespect other faiths :
    Lot of people including Hindus have made fun of Muslims, when they protested against the cartoon where their prophet was shown as terrorist. (I do not support a violent reaction. However I support their concern). Tell me, did anytime Muslims supported the mad Hussein and blamed Hindus for this?
    This is a common trend. People who are fighting with Hindus, asking them to learn tolerance are not muslims. They are “liberals”. But our wrath gets directed towards muslims. Muslims never opposed flag hoisting in Idgah Maidan, Hubli. They never rallied behind Hussein. They did not riot with Babri Masjid verdict. It was always “secularists”. But still Muslim community was pointed. I always feel, lopsided secularism is a bigger obstacle for integration of communities than Maulvis.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @vinay , every word you write is TRUE, but there is no denying that there is no vociferous opposiion to the HARD CORE REGRESSIVE teachings of ZAKIR BUFFON NAIK,like there were salcious rumour about sai baba and baba ram dev or for that matter vinay katiyar , and messsrs togadia , singhal et al. HOW MANY MUSLIM INELLECTUALS HAVE DARED TO PROTEST AT THE DESTRUCTION OF BAMIYAN BUDDHA, or take Shahbuddin an ex Diplomat , rather than denouncing the use of the word Kuffer , brings in Mlecha (which has been totally erased from hindu vocabulary) to defend it , or the website of website of indian deobandis(scroll back for my post)
    which tells young kinds TO UTTER TAUBA as a penance for having touched the railings of the temple.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Rajeev-

    I answered your queries on Moplah Riot/Rebellion ..

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    When we consider Kerala politics today, Congress and Marxists are into competition to please extremist elements in muslims (PDP), to beat Muslim League. It is very similar to how Congress encouraged Bhindranwale to counter AkaliDal. In future, people in Kerala may have to rely on Muslim League to fight with these radicals (as there is no other alternative in Kerala, like BJP or regional parties). Isn’t it an irony? We are relying on parties which were faith based in the beginning (either BJP or Muslim League) to save secularism of India ?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    you are absolutely right. I can see BJP and Muslim League like parties coming together to fight the marxists and congress. (I am under the impression that there is no (Kerala) Muslim League type Muslim parties in north India)

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    BJP-Muslim League alliance, (however strange it may sound) could be better than Congress-DMK or BJP-Jayalalitha combo (considering corruption).

  • Vinay

    Continued

    5>RSS ki saadish:
    Again, not floated by Muslims. Floated by Digvijay, the “secular”. As far Muslims believing them, should we really take Ram Autar’s postings seriously? First of all, does he consider himself serious?

    6>Whom do Indian muslims support in Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
    I being a Hindu also support Palestinian cause. So?

    7>Why do muslims indulge in cow-meat eating even if it is not required by Islam?
    You asked this question to Shan :-)

    8>Why was Kayasthana road renamed as Rizvi road?
    I would definitely condemn their goonda act. However, are you sure it was a genuine Muslim’s demand or “secular government” just decided to please them? I may not like changing road name, but anything is better than “Rajiv Gandhi Road”. (I am presuming, this guy Rizvi would have done something good for local community).
    I don’t agree with Syed (regarding Hindu names) either. Even some cities have changed their name. Chennai etc. It is to remind us about our heritage. Nothing to “please” anyone, nothing “against” anyone. Name of Bangalore is also changed. Not because, it was a Muslim or Christian name earlier. That is how it was always known, locally.

    9> When hindus can go to dargah why can’t muslims reciprocate in same manner?
    Few Muslims and Christians might visit the temples. But in general they don’t. But then, they belong to monolithic religion. We are free in that sense. But Gopi mentioned, Muslims in Kerala not taking part in cultural activities as well. They should learn from Bangladesh (watched world cup inauguration, yesterday).

    But I will agree with you in this; An uneducated poor person living in a ghetto is cut off from external world. He judges the whole world is conspiring against him. This faith in conspiracy theories and intolerance towards the society around will get aided by violent verses in a book.
    Also agree with your words, “Low education combined with intolerant fanatic mind is very dangerous.” A mere book will not do anything, if the above conditions are not met.

    10>Mopla, Godhra, Maraad, Deganga
    One can have a debate which religion has more fanatics or who has more proportional representation. I only presume, if one wants to beat fanatics on both sides, it is time for everyone to move on. If Muslims (Vastanvi) are ready to move on with Godhra, let us move on with Mopla/Maraad. Or else, we will be stuck like Zia.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @Shan, shan, read your statement-

    “”””””””there are 27 DOCTORS in our family at last count. My relatives are in Yale .””””””!!!!!!

    Again a cheap irrelevant boast, no one is interested in how many docs in family or Yale. Your thoughts and the way you conduct yourself here is imp.

    I have never heard of a doctor calling others circumcised (ravi), dick (mishra), talebani etc.
    You are disgusting and a discredit to the wonderful medical community.
    Goodbye——————my prev post –

    You spout anti muslim gibberish all the time and accuse others of being antimuslim- you try and pass it off by giving a ‘rationalist slant’,
    When cornered you indulge in cheap name calling- circumcised Ravi, dick misra, talebani etc. You lower the tone of this blog.
    You sound like one of those SC/ST docs who have got a mbbs seat on reservation. You then carry this massive chip on yr shoulder about us more affluent communities.
    Your comment about driving a bmw car and of doing cholectemy etc- like a cheap boast in a nightclub to pick up girls.
    Grow up

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @balwinder sandhu aka bhondhu , those that appear to as boast was my risposte to your condescension , calling me a freeloader by virtue of being sc/st. MANY OF YOUR FOLKS WHO CONVERTED TO SIKHISM were SC/ST .and let the bloggers be informed about the STATE OF ENLIGHTMENT in UK SIKH community.There was a play by a SARDARNI which opened in birmingham theatre , it was called if I remember correctly BEIZZATI.it showed the GRANTHI raping a teenager in the GURDWARA , she herself come there to escape sexual molestation at home .
    ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE , the response of the sikh community was a MIRROR IMAGE of muslim response to SATANIC VERSES(violence included)

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Mo autar

    ISLAM IS A SH*T.

    BETTER IF ITS FLUSHED FROM THE TOILET HOLE

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    friend, this style is not suitable for this blog, we are Indians and debate, argue, disagree- but poltely

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Rajeev-

    The comments rolled over to a new page. I wanted to let you know that I answered your questions on the Mopla Riot/Rebellion of Malabar in connection with the Khilafet Movementvbellion

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    it was a local uprising against bitish rule.he wants to communalize this.gopi be honest in ur analysis

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Still did not answer my question- DOES ANY DOCTOR USE CHEAP NAME CALLING AND ABUSE to others in this blog. calling- circumcised Ravi, dick misra, talebani etc

    read your statement- “”””””””there are 27 DOCTORS in our family at last count. My relatives are in Yale .””””””!!!!!!

    Again a cheap irrelevant boast, no one is interested in how many docs in family or Yale. Your thoughts and the way you conduct yourself here is imp.

    You spout anti muslim gibberish all the time and accuse others of being antimuslim- you try and pass it off by giving a ‘rationalist slant’,

    You sound like one of those SC/ST docs who have got a mbbs seat on reservation. You then carry this massive chip on yr shoulder about us more affluent communities.
    Your comment about driving a bmw car and of doing cholectemy etc- like a cheap boast in a nightclub to pick up girls.
    Grow up you disgusting individual

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Bul sandhu, SURGEONS cannot stand **** ,and use far more strong language in theatre(that is operating theatre) when a **** intrudes into the discussion.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Shan,
    Before I go, I request you not to fight with sane voices including Balwinder and Mr.Sharma. I am very anti-caste and prefer using my first name for all interaction (as much as possible) so I’d request Balwinder and you not to use casteist words. It simply strengthens muslim fundamentalists’ arguements on this forum.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Rajeev, sorry mate cannot call those two sane voice SMUG voice would be more appropriate. as to the quigmire that is present islam , blame game is one thing , INCISIVE intellectual discourse with an OPEN mind is another.Anyway good luck with your work.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    We are yet to come across a Hindu swami who is morally, intellectually and financially clean. Why did the Advaita Ashram of Calcutta stop reprinting Vivekananda’s famous book, Caste, Culture & Socialism, Is this not corruption? i wrote them several letters but they just don’t reply

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ hey ram ,Why did the Advaita Ashram of Calcutta stop reprinting Vivekananda’s famous book i wrote them several letters but they just don’t reply

    — you can order this book at,
    https://advaitaashrama.org/publication/book-search.php
    if you were really interested in reading this book, you would hv ordered over internet by now. but your agenda is open hatred to hindus, jews. pls stop this nonsense.
    don’t compare banning salman rushdie to this, i can see your agenda.

    come across a Hindu swami who is morally, intellectually and financially clean
    — who is we, talk about yourself.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    come across a Hindu swami who is morally, intellectually and financially clean
    vivekanand was clean in every respect.
    i read all good books i searched this could not findt i wrote them did not recieve awnser.i have great respect for this swami.but he was given respect and honour which he really desrved.

    if u can send i will pay and thankful to u.

    ram autar Reply:

    but he was given respect and honour which he really

    but he was not given respect and honour which he really desrved.

  • D Mishra, UK

    Syed, you may be right about the last 2 years. But a plicymaker cannot just look at the last 2 years and get lulled into complacency.

    In my post below I will make no attempt to differentiate between Pak inspired attacks or local Isamist attacks for often the 2 are intertwined.-
    The alleged saffron attacks are from 2006 onwards. Prior to that, we in India had got used to Islamist attacks almost on a yearly basis- they were ghastly, murderous and indiscriminate- Kargil 1999, Kandahar hijack 2000, Parliament 2001, Akshardham temple, Mumbai stock exchange, Diwali blasts, Mumbai train blasts, Maraad, Hand cutting incident in Kerala, Deganga, Jaipur 2008, Mumbai- Kasab 2008 etc etc), even- heavens forbid- an international science convention in Bangalore when a professor was shot on stage. I have not mentioned the systematic ethnic cleansing of hindus and sikhs from Kashmir from 1989 onwards.

    All this triggered a reactionary saffron terror on Samjhauta express etc of late. So, evil though the saffron/ hindutva attacks are, one must recognise that they are **reactionary**. And while all Indians say- go after Sadhvi Pragya and Col Purohit ruthlessly if they are guilty- I notice, sadly, silence or denial in NDTV type ppl or in vast sections of muslim society. eg Batla house encounter or Mumbai 2008 till Kasab was caught.

    This 2 year lull could also be because Pak and ISI are too tied up fighting the yanks and in Waziristan. The evil Islamist hatred in India has not vanished, (unless you give me a reason why it has melted away) it will surface again when the ISI and Lashkar turn their sights on us when the yanks leave in 2013?.
    Syed, feedback from you and other sane ppl on this blog welcome. Dr Mishra

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mishra bhai,i am sending a part of speech given by israeli prime minister menchem bewgin,

    “Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine goods on this planet. We are as different from inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be reuled by our leader with a rod of Iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves,

    this is mind set they have.bomb blast are stopped brcause true bombers are caught.will write in datailes later now sick and busy.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, Our race is the Master Race
    — i can give your 1000 speech from muslims talking worse than this. even you have give 1000 cut & paste from manu sruthi, degrading fellow human beings. but these days nobody follows these or take them serious except muslims / evangalist christians. so stop this jews, hindus bashing.
    anybody following manu sruthi can be criminally prosecuted in secular india, and same in israel.
    (don’t quote 1 in 1000 case as prooof, its still going on with state support. there is prejudice, but people are realising its bad.people are ready to talk bout it., even if they don’t change, they know they will be in trouble if they call someone pari***** same as calling blacks ni*****.)
    but in case of islam & muslims that’s a different case. which you will not condem,
    muslims say jews are pigs & apes how about that. do you seriously think so.
    stop this selective quoting.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Well, either Balwinder or Shan had a link to Muslim Schools in UK where the Mullah was teaching Pakistani and other Muslim students why Hindus, Christians, Jews etc shoul be avoided because they are inferior and not created by God……

    Muslims can have a better life only if they end their infatuation with religious studies at a n impressionable young age. Otherwise they are doomed!

    ram autar Reply:

    can give your 1000 speech from muslims talking worse than this. even you have give 1000 cut

    send me one. they are behind every big blood bath in last hundred years.

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims say jews are pigs & apes

    mr raj this is wrong.when zoinist were dscending in middle east.almost every jew has given petition to general balfour opposing their arrival.this is available in archives.they were living with muslims from thousands of years.they still prefer.they have same problem with european jews.

    in islam we can never deliver speech like this as it will be considered anti-islamic.islam stands for egalitarianism.
    what menachem begin was saying,they believe in it.they are jews i doubt,but definitely they have european blood,not semitic.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Dr Mishra and Syed

    Both of you are right, since both of you are dealing with two different subjects.

    Syed is right; he says this blog discussion is about Indian Muslims; and the terrorist inciedents nin India last two years were mostly Hindu/RSS connected (Mishra may be correct that these were reaction to prior Muslim acts)

    Mishra is right that Pak army/ISI are busy with their internal problems, and hence the lull during the last two years. However, I do not subscribe all Muslim terrorism within India is connected to ISI/Pak. There are very local “riots”, may be they are mislabelled as terrorism.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Syed is right; he says this blog discussion is about Indian Muslims; and the terrorist inciedents nin India

    why u forgot 600 plus communal riots planned and excuted by them after partition.most important is mental corruption.these deshbhakts were putting petrol in the mouths of thirsty infants of ahmadabad.then put them to fire.

    [Reply]

  • Balvinder Sandhu

    Rajeev, have a nice weekend. I take on board your comments about not making casteist statements about Shan. It is just that I wanted to humiliate him publicly for his bullying and name calling of people on this blog had to stop.

    @Mishrajee- loved your analysis- “”"”"”This 2 year lull could also be because Pak and ISI are too tied up fighting the yanks and in Waziristan. The evil Islamist hatred in India has not vanished, (unless you give me a reason why it has melted away) it will surface again when the ISI and Lashkar turn their sights on us when the yanks leave in 2013″”"”"”

    I for one hope that the Americans stay on in Pakistan for another 100 years. We in India can sleep easy now.

    Waiting to hear what Gopi, SYED, Raju Kurien, Shoeb, Mirza, Benoy, Rajeev have to make of your comment. Lastly doc, what if the Islamic terror mindset HAS melted away??? Are there any equivalent polls in India like MORI

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    This 2 year lull could also be because Pak and ISI are too tied up

    balvinder bhai this lull will remain quite longer as bomb planter are in jail.this was bussiness.one will
    plant bomb,advani will say ,looks act of bangladeshis,let huji simmi etc.etc.madia will air this to its maximum.
    police will catch middle class muslim boys.some of them will be killed in encounter.remaing will bring
    their whole life savings.crores will be collected in hrs.
    booty will be divided between police politicians and media men.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @rajeev- your comment – “”"”Shan, Before I go, I request you not to fight with sane voices including Balwinder and Mr.Sharma”"”"
    Thank you for the compliment, not sure Mrs Sandhu would agree. Hehe.
    By the way, who is Mr Sharma

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    bak rahan hoon junu mein kya kya main,
    kutch na samjhe khuda kare koi

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Wah wah Ram bhai Wah Wah.

    Ibn-e-Mariyam hua kare koi
    mere dukh ki dava kare koi

    Shura-o-aa_in par madaar sahi
    aise qaatil ka kya kare koi

    Chaal jaise ka.Di kaman ka teer
    dil mein aise ke jaa kare koi

    Baat par vaan zuban katati hai
    wo kahen aur suna kare koi

    Bak raha hun junoon mein kya kya kuchh
    kuchh na samjhe Khuda kare koi

    Na suno gar bura kahe koi
    na kaho gar bura kare koi

    Rok lo gar ghalat chale koi
    bakhsh do gar khata kare koi

    Kaun hai jo nahin hai haajatmand
    kiski haajat rava kare koi

    Kya kiya Khizr ne sikandar se
    ab kise rahnuma kare koi

    Jab tawaqqo hi uth gayi “Ghalib”
    kyon kisi ka gila kare koi

    Mirza Ghalib

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    saghar nizami se maine hee kaha tha ki,

    jiske pende mein aachuka hai ball

    aise saghar ka kya kare koi.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    It seems Egyptian army is to some mischief. They want to protect their economic interests (such as construction, factories etc) and do not want to give them away.

    Also there are rumors that the “missing” people from the revolution are under the army custody.

    The Muslim Brotherhood preacher who was exiled to Quatar has come back. The speculation is that he will create trouble.

    Let us hope the young men and women who started this will prevail.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Gopi Thank you. I did say that ‘often’ the two entities, local and Pak inspired Islamist terror are intertwined. Definitely not ‘all’.

    The points I made were from the perspective of a policymaker. An Indian govt is sleep walking into another Kasab or Akshardham disaster for there is so much infighting and point scoring amongst the puny political parties, and there is no national agenda. Is there a think tank in India looking into all this, are there any intelligent debates into these things other than intellectually weak and emotionally strong mantras like- ‘there is no such thing as a hindu terrorist’ or ‘Indian muslims are not al queda etc’.
    If you tell me that the previous blood curdling Islamist agenda was only Babri/ Gujrat related then I would relax, but I cant.
    I do desperately need to see abolition of muslim poverty and undereducation, but even that may not be the final answer. Memory tells me that in the last 10 years some of the Islamists have been middle class or even professionals. Anyone remember the Pune IT engineer who had a house in Koregaon Park and a young family.
    India is a tinderbox, I pray that there are no incidents in the next 10 years, then the momentum of 8% growth for 20 years would take us over the hill. Not quite the Ramrajya, or Utopia or Neverland- but halfway there.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Mishra

    you are right; we have to have a policy; many a time it is the appeasement agenda that wins at the detriment of the country.

    You are right about poverty’s role ..That is the secularist vision. If poverty is the reason, no Muslim from Kerala shoul have gone to terrorist camps in Pak. The Bangalore MD who bombed Scotland airport was not poor. The 19 Al Queda boys who bombed world tarde center were not poor. However, poor people are employed as foot soldieres giving them money.

    I am with you on tough rules including anticipatory arrests. If more Muslims are arrested, so be it. Muslims will not complaint, secularists will. However, police should not do selective arrests.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    rala shoul have gone to terrorist camps in Pak

    mr gopi exceptions donot make rule.99.99 percent are against few of them who have joined the enemy camp.on contrary what hindu zoinists are doing to muslims change of side should hve been
    in large no.when during earthquake relief will not be given because of faith.
    from last 10 yrs these people are keeping bombs and arresting muslims.making thousands of crores.muslims were not allowed accomodation job etc.why they should not change the side.but they deep attachment with india and indians.

    gopi u aare really talking non-sense.christians became rich with muslim money from agcc countries.in india u have not produced genius or scientist.u created crowd of english speaking people.i have no objection as far as they are indian.nobody was ever decriminated because of religion.muslims are pushed to poverty though they producing best of everything in india.
    make tough laws but it with full honesty.yes secularist will object ,if u will use these laws to make billions.like ats officers.each of them have killed not less than 125 boys.one of them had 3000 crores in inhis account.

    thomas , christian history is most voilent history.read goa inquisition written by christian.or the history of europe.even now.or mascare of 25 millions women calling them witch.ist world war second world war communist revolution (killed 5crores russians),interstate wars catholic protestant wars.mascare of jews mascare of muslims in spain or balkan.list is endless.biggest mascare of human history took place in india ,when half the population was wiped out in first 50 yrs of their rule.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    19 Al Queda boys who bombed world tarde center were not poor

    gopi are sure they did it.where are their dead body.fire fighter reached there in 10 minutes.the building fell through implosions.100 story building with 200 million tons of steel cannot fell in 57 minutes.where is body of plane.
    this was zoinist game to convice americans to attack afghanistan and iraq.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims will be biggest contributor of 8%growth.being from up ,u know every city in our state is known with muslim art.effort should be made to uplift entire country.muslims are least shaitan.there are some.these incidents like akhaydham or pqarliament attack happened only in nda regime.why nothing is happening now.
    advani wrote the chereography of all these attacks.why perpetuators were never allowed to live.why
    modi is still out.when 69 indians were burnt alive,jafri called him and advani 200 times.many non muslims also lost their life.

    tough laws should be made,must be apply honestly.not like before that bomb will be planted by abhinav bharat and innocent will be robbed and killed.we think india and treart everybody equally.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    I do desperately need to see abolition of muslim poverty and undereducation

    that is final awnser.why there is no blast in dubai or jakarta.something happens in other part of india by all races.educated muslims will be an asset for the country.muslims need honest administration
    dont need.they should honest return for their product.middle man should not eat their labour.
    word hindu musalman should be abolished.should be replaced with one word indian.
    basic condition of democracy is honest judiciary.saddam should brought from grave to run this country.
    ayatollah khui is biggest ayatollah of iraq and iran.khomeini is nothing.he had one daughter.he hanged his son in law when found guilty.never regret the death of his sons.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    A Tinder Box Full of Self-Righteous Characters

    Even a cursory reading of this blog would leave no one in any doubt that here in this blog, reside an unusual concentration of Self-Righteous Characters, many could have walked straight out of an English Comedy TV programme, Harry Enfield (an English Comedian) and chums.

    Harry Enfield created a couple of middle-aged very opinionated men, Frank and George Doberman – their surname is suggestive of the canine qualities these characters possess – mindless and vicious.

    The comic scenes usually involve these two men sitting in a pub and discussing an imaginary conversation with a celebrity, and then during the conversation the chosen celebrity is imagined to have acted in an unexpected manner and the scene is brought to a climax with Harry Enfield shouting in an angry way Oi NOO!. The scene is made comic by the fact that the entire conversation is imaginary and in reality extremely unlikely.

    An example would be that the Self Righteous Characters are having an imaginary conversation with Sonia Gandhi. The scene is built and then an unlikely scenario – Sonia Gandhi admitting that in the next elections, she will be voting for the BJP – unfolds. At that point Frank Doberman becomes red faced and totally enraged, and stands up and shouts

    Oi Sonia Gandhi NOO!.

    Much of what has been posted here amounts to little more than anxious rants of paranoid schizophrenics who are imagining a variety of Muslim characters who seem to be perpetually engaging in misdemeanour.

    Each of these postings could have ended in:

    Oi Egyptian Army NOO!

    Oi Islamic Brotherhood NOO!

    Oi Talibani NOO!

    Oi Indian Muslim NOO!

    Oi Kashmiri Youth NOO!

    The list is endless.

    For those whose TV diet is full of American shows, would be familiar with a character called Ralph Kane an ultra conservative individual in a show called – Wait Till Your Father Gets Home – who saw conspiracies every where and an enemy under every table and round every corner.

    His paranoia had debelitating effect on his life.

    I am off to the Pub, meanwhile let the abuse start…..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Gopi
    “If poverty is the reason, no Muslim from Kerala shoul have gone to terrorist camps in Pak. The Bangalore MD who bombed Scotland airport was not poor. ”

    I have personally seen many well adjusted muslims going to Saudi for work & coming back whahbised. They have not become terrorists mind you but they do become much more religious and keep more to their own community. Again, nothing wrong with this…however the issue is that such ppl can be much more easily radicalised & they are very conservative & obscurantist.

    Bottom line.. The Wahabist interpretation of Islam as propagated by Saudi through unlimited money and resources is the single greatest threat to Islam. In fact I would say that it is Saudi which has hijacked Islam with its own narrow interpretation.

    Do you know how they are spreading their version throughout the world? In my next post….

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed,

    Yes, Wahabis are hijacking and creating big issues all over. All the Kerala Muslim troubles are started by them. In addition to the well-publicized Pak training, deaths of Malayali Muslims in Kashmiir etc, there is a less published Muslim on Muslim killings happening too. Several prominent progressive Maulavis were killed by the Wahabi extremists. One of the two prominent Sunni leaders/imams, Kanthapuram Aboobaker Musaliyar, is completely taken over by wahabis.
    The recent “hand chopping” was a Wahabi stuff, organizations like PDP, SDPI etc are also.. They are poisoning the environment; destabilizing the age old communal harmony (Gods own land) there. Marxists and Congress have been wooing them because their vote will ensure victory in certain asssembly seats. Recent arrests in connection with the hand chopping did establish money connection to KSA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    The Wahabist interpretation of Islam
    wahabism was planted britisher among arabs by europeans.it is totally against islam.like hindutva has nothing to do with hinduism.

    MISHRAJEE I RECOMMEND U TO READ ,memoires of dr memphire.on internet.he mi16 spy.

    but there is no scape from these evils.saudi royal family have jewish blood.they are unfolding their plans.

    i reqeust u to read about family of rothchild.they own half the wealth of world.they fooled and enslaved europe for 200yrs.now controlling america.all these shot coming from there.europeans created the situation so that muslims go to them.by killing 200000 muslims in balkan war.they survived because of their help.
    media is in their hands.
    but saudi is also providing jobs to millions poors and hapless.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Syed

    I agree with you and let me guess the reasons.

    The Saudi Religious Establishment is funding the building of Madrassas, and the training bursaries of Imams.

    The result is that in India and Pakistan the Barelvi’s are loosing out to the Deobandi’s.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Syed just to help with your incoming post. A news seen in TV here. Saudi money is building hell of a lot of mosques in Bosnia Herzogovina ,and also providing food and shelter to BONE POOR war ravaged Bosnials. Only caveat , these mosques are manned by wahabism friendly mullahs , with a ready supply of poverty stricken foot soldiers , not difficult to forsee the consequences.
    howver BOSNIAN authorities much to their credit have closed down quite a few mosque and opened a dept to monitor these saudi funded organisation .THEY HAVE THE GOOD SENSE to know joining EU is much much much desirable option than depending on saudi handouts.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @ravi/shan
    RAvi, what I admire about you is that you have the courage to stand by your convictions.

    Right on the dot!

    In India they ahbve rebuilt thousands of dilapidated mosques and installed their own mullas in many of them. Mosques which were previously manned by nondescript unassuming persons are now controlled by ones with wahabi beards. Again mind you, no problem apparently.
    but the main issue is that wahabism strongly fosters the concept of the “other” and that iswhere the problems begin.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Syed

    In my previous postings in this blog I have expounded on the concept og OTHERING and how the Hindu Right has been for a long time trying very hard to depict the Indian Muslim community as the “OTHERS” this is their strategy.

    Apparently, rioting is facilitated if the population that is being rioted against has been “OTHERED”. This phenomenon is not restricted to the Hindu Right but is practiced by others as well.

    In the Third Reich, Jews were the OTHERS.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ravi-
    The whole Muslim religion and its approach is “othering”.. Kauffers, infidels, dar-ul-islam, ar-ul-harb etc are fundamental pillars of that belief system – believer and non-believer; elimination of the non-believer etc..

    Hindu right will other other, if the believers play their hands too much. Yes, Never again!

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Fair point

  • D Mishra, UK

    syed bhai- your comment- …..Terrorist attacks started in India in the aftermath of the destruction of the babri masjid….is very profound. I will confess ignorance here for it begs the obvious questions-
    1. Did Islamist violence not exist before?
    2. Were other factors at that time equally important-
    a) ISI and Pak stepping up their mischief in Kashmir and also elsewhere
    b) An Indian polity that was mortally wounded by Khalistani terrorist fight 1980-1993
    c) Is a disused mosque that imp to a faith that bombs can be set off to avenge it
    d) If so, then should the Kashmiri hindus also explode bombs for temples ravaged in
    Kashmir, ditto hindus in Pakistan
    e) Then is Advani, an intrinsically decent but misguided individual, in a way responsible for the
    bombs
    f) who started the riots
    Also I want to know- what does the hindu community think of point e above, and what does the muslim community think of c above.

    Not being provocative. Just thinking, and talking. I do not know the answers to most of above.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    syed bhai, your statement no 2- …Sorry, indian muslims cannot be held responsible for terrorist attacks committed by pakistanis. …
    Absolutely true. The trouble is that sometimes local Islamists are involved, either in providing shelter, logistics, information or sometimes in carrying out the attack.
    Often the fidayeen is dead, and with him his identity.
    Also the fact remains that when on the run, they escape to and are given shelter in Pakistan- Dawood, Tiger Memon, founder of iNDIAN MUJAHEDEEN name ?, Masood Azhar, Omar Sheikh, numerous khalistanis etc etc.
    As I said the two are intertwined. Unfortunately India is not that powerful to bomb or bribe a rogue country intop line (eg Libya)

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Mishra, some Hindus also provide logistical help to PAkistanis and get money for that. So, we cannot generalize. Statistically, there may be more Muslim supporters.

    There are two key “cleansing” efforts India has to pursue – a clear cut strategy of killing off cross-border terrorism eminating from Pakistan and a control on inian bureaucracy to create a corruption-free government.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    syed bhai- your statement no 3 is illuminating for me- …I have personally seen many well adjusted muslims going to Saudi for work & coming back wahabised. …such ppl can be much more easily radicalised & they are very conservative & obscurantist. …
    The key point for me is -previously well adjusted. It begs for a renaissance within the muslim community to recognise this fatal flaw.
    It is a world wide virus and each country has to find its own way of combating it. Here in UK, just when we had got used to excellent relations between the English and most immigrants from 1990-2000, 9/11 and later 7/7 came along and Islamophobia in society is rising again

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Perceptions, rightfully or wrongfully, are formed by the images people keep in their minds. One semi permannent image in peoples minds is the Islamic jehadism. Every day, week, month – a new act of terrorism, explosion, long bearded screaming Muslim men, looking like they are from a different world, different century.

    Another, more recent, where iPad and iPhone and Twitter and Facebook “normal” youngsters clad in jeans and tee shirts and skirts leading peaceful procession for democracy.

    Any negative image (as well as any influence they have among Muslims) from the first scenario will slowly fade away if the second image becomes the prevailing image –with each country becoming democratic through tehse youngsters efforts. All – Muslims, jews, Hindus, budhists, christians- will rejoice in this.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    forcible occupation of palestine and d occupation of jerusalam and their 3rd most holy mosque is main cause of radicalism.if i try to ocuppy vatican ,there will be reaction.actually zoinist are using christianity to ignite christian -muslim war.why their armies were lead by pastors with guns in their hands.not bible.
    another thing is ,islam calls for simplicity most of our khalifas used to had 2or 3 pair of clothes.now our ruler are swimming in money and they show this.so they hate them and dont consider them as one of them.
    muslims bhi bhagwan ke bachche hain unko bhi achcha jeevan bitanein ka haq hai.wahabism non wahabism i for those whose stomach is full.99%of our boys cannot even read quran.we should give them education.muslims are intelligent u can see their worth in field of cricket cinema handicraft etc.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram — of course, nobody in India will want to deny education, food, opportunity etc for Muslim chilren. Indians are not like that.

    India can absorb every body. The issue with many Muslims, not many and may not be the majority, is that they want to be separate, they always look for complaint,s they always want more etc, creating a negative environment. THe situation of Muslims in bihar (or UP) is bad. So also, all others too. But the way you project is that somebody deliberately has kept Muslims in a bad situation there. The issue is the growth of all those states. Everybody – hindus, Muslims , others – are doing significantluy better in south India than north India..Why? because south India grew. The key is to make the BIMARU states grow so all have opportunities. We cannot waste anybody, be Hindu, Muslim, or English Godess religion.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    Hear, hear, hear

    ram autar Reply:

    majority, is that they want to be separate, they always look for complaint,s they always want more etc, creating a negative environment. THe situation of Muslims in bihar (or UP) is bad

    benoy i think u have never visited those areas.every city of those states is know with muslim handicraft.these are my area.i know.problem.s muslim workforce is paid least possible.
    if they ask better pyment. a sadhu is brought by banias.they will hang some snake in their propety and declare land belong to them.fight will start.media will come ,they will declare snakes have come from pakistan city will be paralysed for 10-15 days 30-40people will be killed (90%muslims)lot of property will be burnt(nearly all of them muslim) after 2 weeks muslims will start starving.they will agree to bania conditions including loan at high interest which thewy can never pay.
    most of good artisan will runaway.one time during indira jee time moradabad riot continued for 1 year.now trade has gone in the hand of pakistan.banias also doomed.
    this is war between haves`and havs not.muslims and hindus live like brothers in slms.but they hate bloody banias who hurt them.goverment remains silent spectator.taking bribe from both sides.

    in early seventies 170 muslims taken out from a village of hashimpura packed in a truck.all of them were shot killed and thrown in hinden river.nobody is punished so far.it is only when mulayam and` mayawati came ,then riot stopped.
    when artisans are`killed murdered and exploited ,how state can progress.

    north india will come up very fast.hindutva was keeping us backward.now they`are kicked out.

    good days will come.up is the cradle of hinduism and headquarter of muslim aristocracy.

    u people are not aware of ground realities.up had always been leading india.it will lead lead again

    hindutva ne hame hindu banaya ab hum phir hindi banegein aur gayeinge

    aiye abroode ganga woh din hai yaad tujko
    utra tere kinare jab karwan hamara
    mazhab nahin sikhata
    apas mein bair rakhna
    hindi hain hum watan hai hidoostan hamara.

    ravi bhai rajee ko mithai khilao paise na hon to mishrajee se le lena.hamare up ke bhai hain dedegein.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    Dr Mishra in the last blog explicitly asked me if I was proud of the fact, that you alone seem to be supporting my ideas and posts.

    I invite them to read the above.

    Whilst we all are tinkering at the edges of well-known and oft rehearsed concepts, you are the sole voice that is trying to change the paradigm within which we need to interpret our mundane observations.

    Unashamedly, I am happy to re-state, I am proud of you.

    Regards

    Ravi

  • syed

    Mishrajee,

    See, long lasting riots were a frequent occurrence in India prior to the demolition of the babri masjid. However these were not terrorist acts (now I do not take kashmiri muslims as representaive of indian muslims) .

    I was living in Bombay during 1990-1994 when the babri masjid was demolished and its aftermath. So I can give you my take… Ill try to kep it brief..dont believe in long posts..

    Muslims rioted on hearing news of the demolition and roits spread in Jogeshwari ( a predominantly muslim suburb). The new chief minister of maharashtra was sudhakar rao naik of congress who was the arch rival of Sharad Pawar. Naik set about systematically cutting down Pawar to size. Pawar was the then defence minister and very close to the shiv sena (he still is).
    The shiv sena started burning and looting muslim businesses (shops/showrooms/bakeries etc). during the day the skies were black with burnt shops. This continud for many days with active help from the police. Sudhakarrao naik was unable to stop the violence (as most lower level police were shiv sainiks). Bombay was paralyzed for many days. In desperation Sudhakarrao naik appealed to the centre and the army was despatched to bombay.
    Now remember, Pawar was the defence minister. The army was not allowed to get off from their trucks but ordered to patrol only on the main roads while the violence was taking place on the narrow roads and gullies. Helpless, naik resigned and the violence began to abate. However the shiv sena having tasted blood did not stop targeting muslim businesses (looting is very profitable and safe if police are with you). This was going on continuously for about a week. Then Bombay was targeted by multiple bomb blasts (the first time in India) by Dawood Ibrahim whose businesses had also been targeted.
    The shiv sainik violence stopped immediately thereafter.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed Post Script to your bombay riot diary, (with due acknowledgement of the source , the film black friday by Anurag kashyap)
    ALL THE ARMS AND AMMUNITION SMUGGLED INTO BOMBAY BY OPENLY DECLARING THE CONTENTS AND PAYING BRIBES TO ALL MAHARASHTRIAN HINDU CUSTOMS OFFICIALS

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    RAMAVTAR, are you having a personality transplant, only joking.
    I liked some of yr lines above- …I do desperately need to see abolition of muslim poverty and undereducation- that is final awnser.why there is no blast in dubai or jakarta.
    word hindu musalman should be abolished.should be replaced with one word indian….

    Only one problem, Jakarta and Indonesia is seeing slowly increasing radicalism. Have a cousin who has lived there for 15 years, likes it but he is a high earning IT professional who lives in a nice suburb. He tells me of local events that never get international reportage.
    The

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    got cut off, contd- Indonesia- Bali bombing got reporetd, but not the plight of Ahmadiyas who got declared non muslims, then some radicals said they are wajib ul qatal and the the killings started.
    (Identical echoes in Pak where these events happened earlier)
    see this video- the end bit is evil- burning of Ahmadiyas then kicking their dead bodies repeatedly, in Feb 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfG4v3JazUY
    Echoes of the videos of the killing of the 2 brothers in Sialkot, anyone see that

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Mishrajee
    The source of the malady is wahabism promoted by saudi. Now saudi is as close as can be to US/UK as they get to sell their arms to saudi & are assured of a steady supply of oil.

    However if you want to cure the disease you need to destroy the source. I dont believe USA is even thinking about it!

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    ramavtar contd- your line is great- word hindu musalman should be abolished.should be replaced with one word indian….
    Did you know that Dr Ambedkar and Gandhi said it in 1947, and surprisingly in the most famous speech by Jinnah after Pakistani independence, he said something identical. Most Pakistani liberal jounalists quote that line nowadays, nearly every week, now that their country stands on the brink of being swallowed up completely by a very radical Wahabi Islam

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Persecution of AHMEDI’S has been goin on since its inception in 1889. It is nothing new, not even in Indonesia. So persecution of AHEMADI’s in this context is a red herring.

    In 1953 at the instigation of religious parties, anti-Ahmadiyya riots erupted in Pakistan, killing scores of Ahmadi Muslims and destroying their properties. There were severe agitations against the Ahmadis in which street protests were held, political rallies were carried out, and inflammatory articles were published. These agitations led to 2,000 Ahmadi deaths. Consequently, martial law was established and the Pakistan’s Federal Cabinet was dismissed by Governor-General Ghulam Muhammad.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    syed bhai, you said -….The source of the malady is wahabism promoted by saudi….

    Okay lets police our borders. Only problem is, as Musharraf said in Germany last month, the Indo Pak border is porous. His words were- ‘even I, an old man, can choose a site and walk across’.

    Even if by a miracle, we did police a physical border, there are the borders of the mind. No one can stop access to inflammable CDs, literature and internet. Two years ago, when I went to visit my nephew in AMU Aligarh Muslim Univ hostel, his muslim neighbour (studying law actually) was listening to some CD/DVD in his room. Religious sermons by some shrieking mullah- who was saying- agar musalman ho to ustra kyon uthatey ho- dont shave, and more seperatist obscurantist bull.
    The borders of the mind is what I had in mind when I prayed for a renaissance in Islamic societies. I am too middle of the road, hate revolutions. Dont know where you end up. Witness Iran

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    mishrajee,
    MY take was- if the USA is REALLY serious about eradicating terrorism, then it needs to have a regime change in saudi.

    A renaissance of the mind cannot take place in the face of an inexhaustible supply of wahabis armed with unlimited funds from the sands of saudi arabia!

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    very true,. but these Saudi buggers ( I mean the Royal family) are too deeply entrenched)

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Mishra,

    There is a fundamentalist/extremist aspect of Islam, that has not been tackled because as you say there was no “renaissance” in Islam. All the other religions, through “formal” renaissance or not, evolved with times with inclusionary and mind expansionary philosophies – many of our own Indian masters were into universality, oneness etc; christianity found its different calls in various protestant sytems (although some protestant factions like the American Baptists are as “funamental” as Wahabis minus its killings), Buhism went on mental expansion..

    Thought and evolution in Islam was frozen in 1200-1300 due to various historical reasons when clerics got control of the religion away from the ruler. Turkey kept clerics away militarily and constitutionally, and it is a thriving country today, not bent on any extremism.

    Turkey has shown it is possible. Many Muslim countries, until recently, di not accept Turkey as a Muslim country for the fear of internal Mullah uprising..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Many Muslim countries, until recently, di not accept Turkey as a Muslim country for the fear of internal Mullah uprising

    gopi now ummah will be lead by iran and turkey.turkey have seen the meannes of europe by not allowing them to be part of it.they are returing back to othman.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    hope an egyptian style movement happens in india so sons and daughters like rahul, kumaraswamy, stalin, kanmozhi, ysr son reddy, pawar daughter etc dont follow …

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Hi Benoy, could perhaps keep Rahul but jettison the rest. Also it may not be easy for even those who are not sons or daughters of politicians, are themselves no great advertisements for governance or honesty- Mayawati, Jayalalita, Mulayam, Amar Singh etc. TINA syndrome in India- ‘there is no alternative’

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi tell me what is fundamentalist and it cannot be applied on muslims.thsi is zoinist propaganda word to create fear in the jewish community of europe and america.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Gopi, thanks I am learning all the time- Keralite muslims had gone to Pakistan or to fight in Kashmir- I did not know that. Any evidence, link, magnitude (ie 3 or 4 hotheads, or dozens) ??

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    they are very few,one or 2 .today thousands of kashmiri muslim boys were lining to join indian army to fight pak supported insurgenciy.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Gopi,

    “Thought and evolution in Islam was frozen in 1200-1300 due to various historical reasons when clerics got control of the religion away from the ruler”.

    True. But for a renaissance to take place you certainly need a certain “enabling” environment in the community such as more openness, less orthodoxy etc. etc

    Wahabism is the exact antithesis of such an environment as hence such a renaissance can never take place as long as wahabism remains strong.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Dick head Mishra , your lines Here in UK, just when we had got used to excellent relations between the English and most immigrants from 1990-2000,

    Does the date 22nd April 1993 mean anything to you , by the way 1993 is within the decade espoused by you as the period when all english people fell madly in love with rather “DARKY” mishra, For bloggers who want to know the significance of that date just follow this link http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/lawrence

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Syed , this is to DEROBE dick SMUG mishra’s s SHALLOW INTELLECT, more examples of EXCELLENT RELATION BETWEEN DARKY MISHRA AND JOHN BULL, THE ALBION . here is a cut and paste which explains the 7/7 HAS ITS ROOTS NOT EXCLUSIVELY IN WAHABI ISLAM
    eeds and England footballer Jonathan Woodgate has escaped a custodial sentence after being found guilty of affray during an attack on a student in Leeds.

    The player was instead sentenced to 100 hours’ community service after the verdict was delivered at Hull Crown Court.

    He and his club teammate and fellow international Lee Bowyer were cleared of causing grievous bodily harm with intent. Mr Bowyer was also cleared of affray.

    What is affray?
    Intentionally using or threatening unlawful violence such as would cause a reasonable person to fear for his safety

    But Woodgate’s friend Paul Clifford was jailed for six years for grievous bodily harm and affray.

    Another friend, Neale Caveney, was also ordered to do 100 hours community punishment after he was found guilty of affray but cleared of causing grievous bodily harm.

    A spokesman for the family of victim Sarfraz Najeib said the verdicts were a “tremendous disappointment”.

    Outside court, Woodgate said through his solicitor that he had “every sympathy” with the Najeib family, but wished to put this episode behind him and continue with his footballing career.

    ‘Racist attack’

    Mr Najeib, 21, from Rotherham, South Yorkshire, was beaten unconscious in the attack outside a Leeds club in January 2000.

    He was bitten on the face and suffered a broken leg, nose and cheekbone.

    Speaking at a press conference after the case, Suresh Grover, on behalf of the Najeib family, said the family and its supporters were “angry and furious” that only one person was convicted of the “savage and racist attack”.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Had he stayed in PAaistan he would have been blown away! He must be thankful that he did not die!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde , how about somebody telling you after your spouse have been beaten unconscious by DOT BUSTERS(bloggers look up in the internet ) THAT YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL HAD IT BEEN INDIA , WITH NO AMBULANCE SERVICE AND DISMAL HEALTHCARE , SIMILAR INJURY WOULD HAVE MEANT SURE DEATH. So you should be thankful that beatings took place in USA

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Just joking!

  • Rizwan

    @ Shan

    For sometime now, make it 5 months, I have been reading these blogs. I have seen Islamophobes attacking my religion and my quom and I have seen a unique kind of animal who pretends to be a friend of muslims and yet continues to stab them in the back with the most vituperative propoganda. Both types disgust me.
    SHAN, you are unique in that you combine the two in a way that appals me. You say that you are a doctor, I actually disbelieve that. SHAN, you have been attacked and insulted by some Sandhu bloke for your use of abusive language and yet you continue to do so. SHAN you seem to have an unstable personality that seems to revel in cheap disgusting controversy. Do you have any friends in the real world or do you sit in front of the computer farting away. Sorry, SHAN, I used your language, so let me finish. You are a bar steward.
    I have been so disgusted by your behaviour that I actually faxed to HTyesterday . They told me you had already been banned from other blogs on HT and they would look at your writings, sorry vomitings, and look into this. So SHAN, please we muslims can look after ourselves.
    This is the first time I have written on a blog,Rizwan

    [Reply]

  • Mohan Ramchandani

    Syed/Ravi,

    Great job both of you. Syed specialy. Slowly but surely you both have slightly changed the mindset
    of the bloggers. Now most of them have stopped generlising about musilms. The problem
    both sides is of generalising. Most of the hindus think all muslims are bad and vice verca.
    If we all stop generalising about people of other faiths and start interacting with them, slowly
    the influence of these radical people from both these faiths will reduce.
    Surplrisingly even Ram Avtar seems to be changing. LESS RELIGION MORE HUMANITY
    SHOULD BE OUR MOTTO OF LIFE.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Mohan, Agree , slight modification , MINIMAL RELIGION , more on SCIENCE , CULTURE AND THE COMMONALITIES THAT BINDS ALL HUMAN BEINGS

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    @SHAN

    This is your intellectual capacity or lack of it. Were you on LSD when you wrote it or is this all your diseased brain can come up with. Or, do you think we muslims in India or so cowed down that we cannot hit back at any moron we disagree with.
    Everyone enjoy-

    shan says:
    February 6, 2011 at 11:06 pm
    @zia, congratulations, this is one of your better written articles. comment on Indians from different states. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small.In fact I have felt bengalees (that is exclusively WB)
    share a few common traits with english , some aspect of english life is GRAND , beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.
    Yes I do call other people racist and Fascist.
    ——————-
    This is an analysis put up by a doctor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never in my whole life come across such garbage. You are a total moron, employed at Heathrow as a cleaner most likely, with enough local UK knowledge to build a fairy tale of being a doctor.
    Your insults to the muslims have stung deep and I shall not let you get away with it. I dont mind muslim criticism the way Hegde or others do it, but you snarl like an animal.
    You really are a bar steward. Doctor????? dont make me laugh

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan, as it happens there was a cleaner in heathrow , your CO RELIGIONIST , ?your relation WHO WENT TO ISRAEL ON A BRITISH PASSPORT news.sky.com/…/Suicide-Bomber…Heathrow/…/200305112304124?…Suicide_Bomber…Heathrow

    MUSLIMS NEED TO BE WHIPPED BACK TO REALITY AND RATIONALITY FROM THEIR INTOXICATION OF OBSCURANTIST GARBAGE , THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS AN ENDURING AND PROFOUND LOVE OF ISLAMIC ARCHITECTURE AND CULTURE

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Whether Shan is a doctor or not (many bloggers obviously would not know all those medical terms he and other doctors use), his statements on terrorism are true. 7/7 bombings, Glasgow bombings, were committed by Muslims, most of them Pakistani origin, except two who are Bangalore born.

    Here in US, the attempted manhattan bombing, the Colorado connection, Maryland dentist/doctor/two others traveling to Peshawar etc are all Muslims, of Pakistani extract.. And then there is Dr Aifa, who was on “vacation” in Kabul..

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    No one has ever denied here that a substantial amount of terrorism we have witnessed over the last few years has emanated from Pakistan.

    However, where I certainly differ from you is when you account for it entirely on the basis of ISLAMIC THEOSOPHY.

    I am of the opinion that there are many additional SECULAR reasons behind this mindless violence and in order to form a fuller picture one has to take into account:

    1. The geo-political realities of Pakistan.

    2. India’s desire to give Pakistan a dose of its own medicine

    3. USA Foreign Policy in the middle east and particularly in the Saudi Arabia.

    4. Religion is often used as a camouflage for more mundane political reasons.

    5. Religion is a convenient device used to mobilise, common public, whose grasp of more intricate political issues is tenuous.

    6. Etc.

    So I am of the opinion that any attempt to rationalise the current wave of “Islamic Terrorism” exclusively from a religious POV is at best incomplete and at worst reactionary. All rational observers always juxtapose, religious elements of this reprehensible violence with those of US Foreign Policy in the Middle East over the last 40 years.

    What we are observing now is a popular revolt against such a policy and we are witnessing its unravelling.

    Lets hope that the NEW US policy in the middle east will rely less on religious elements and more on secular politics.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-
    You are right that teh whole rationality of the terrorist attacks cannot be attributed to the
    Islamic Theosaphy.
    However, whatever may be the reason for disenchantment, soem charlatans are attracting
    this disenchanted people to kill in the name of God. They show the verse in the Book. That
    gives the justification to kill and shouting Alla hu Akbar.

    There iis an identity isse/conflict among Muslims (some, all, may, may be depending on the country,may be it is less in India annnd more in Pakistan)that make them sitting targets for religious charlatans and people with extremist agendas( causing them to leverage your points 3 an5).New York Times ran a survey in PAkistan conducted by the prestigious Rockfeller Foundation. This was a survey of journalists, generally well educated people in print, TV, radio…It was very large sample to hash any survey confidence levels..51% identified themselves as Muslims, 28% as journalists, and 18% as Pakistanis. 59% said government should not pass any laws that are contradicting Sharia. As long as these types of numbers prevail (an they may be prevailing because of early childhood embedded Madrasa eucation or whatever) Saudi Arabia’s problems become their problem, Yemen’s problem becomes their problem et.al (survey NYT 2/12)

    If the same survey is conducted in US, I would bet 100% will say tehy are Americans or Indian-Americans or Chinese-Americans. If it is done in India, I would bet 95% will say they are Indians.

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy glasgow bombing did not kill any body.only last week they have killed 52 women and children in drone attack.

    ram autar Reply:

    40000 israeli jewish ladies recently married to egyptian.they hate their own selfish cruel and voilent men.who exploit everything including their ladies.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Rizwan

    Do you think “we cannot hit back any moron we disagree with:

    - who are “we”?
    - does anybody who disagree with “we” automatically become a moron
    - and why would you hit back at the one “we” disagree with? Of course, you shoul respon if the logic is flawedd, or if the statement is inaccurate or if there is another exp[lanation…but hit back???

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Now let me guess who is this coward imposter posing as Rizwan, mishra or sandhu , take your pick.
    Now his is what other HONOURABLE people have thought of me in this blog,eat your words rizwan or sandhu or most likely mishra
    James T Cassidy says:
    July 23, 2010 at 6:14 am
    Dear Shan

    You are mesmerizingly brilliant, a veritable treasure of knowledge, on issues past and present and your linguistic quiver has arrows to meet all debatory challenges, with verifiable sources, and deliver your responses with absolute precision, be it sarcastic, humorous, incisive or downright abrasive. It is not possible for me to meet you in person, but I wish I could
    Ravi in New York City Reply:

    July 26th, 2010 at 8:03 am

    Shan, wherever you are, you are a smart person. Keep up the good work
    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    July 26th, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    Shan,

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    :ROTHCHILD ARE BEHIND PRESENT UPHEAVAL IN TUNISIA AND EGYPT.TO KILL ISLAMIC BANKING SYSTEM.BECOMING VERY POPULAR ALL OVER THE WORLD. Tunisia has undergone increasing economic liberalization over the last decade: In the 2010-2011 World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report, it was ranked as the most competitive country in Africa, as well as the 32nd most economically competitive country globally. North Africa’s large Muslim populations are a vast business opportunity for Islamic banking and other businesses.

    Jacob Rothschild, senior member of the British branch of the Rothschild dynasty
    Contrary to popular belief, the world’s finances are controlled by privately-owned “central banks” masquerading as federal government banks in nearly every country in the world [The U.S. Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, ruled that The Federal Reserve (U.S.' central bank) was privately owned in 680 F.2d 1239, LEWIS v. UNITED STATES of America, No. 80-5905].

    Though it is a carefully guarded secret, the Rothschilds and their associates own most the shares in the central banks (Federal Reserve Directors: A Study of Corporate and Banking Influence, Committee on Banking, Currency and Housing, House of Representatives, 1976, Charts 1-5) (Mullins, Eustice Secrets of the Federal Reserve 1983). With extremely little government input, the economies of Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, and Algeria are strictly controlled by the Rothschild’s central banks and their International Monetary Fund.

    ————————————————————————————————————————–

    THE MOTIVE: FOLLOW THE MONEY

    Islamic banks have been eating into Rothschild profits in the Middle East because: they don’t charge interest (Shariah Law), they are growing very rapidly among the world’s exploding Muslim populations, and (in these catastrophic economic times) they are more stable than western banks.

    While it is a very good thing that people are freed from the tyranny of dictators, they also need to be freed from the tyranny of economic control and serfdom. The relevant moral question is: Do the means justify the end?.

    Ben Ali’s son-in-law El Materi at the opening of his Zitouna Bank, North Africa’s first Islamic bank, last May
    Deposed Tunisian President Ben Ali’s son-in-law, Sakher El Materi, opened Tunisia’s first Islamic bank, Zitouna Bank, on May 26, 2010. Zitouna Bank is the first Islamic bank in the Maghreb region [North Africa]. The bank was a first step toward Ben Ali’s new program of extensive reforms, “Tunisia, a Pole for Banking Services and a Regional Financial Centre”, which would have undermined the power and the profits of the Central Bank of Tunisia (privately-owned by the Rothschilds and their associates).

    Tunis Financial Harbour opened last October 19. Its the first offshore finance centre in North Africa.
    The Telegraph (October 19 2010) reported on the opening of the megaproject Tunis Financial Harbour –President Ben Ali’s bid to make Tunisia the regional financial centre of North Africa and beyond: “Islamic investment bank Gulf Finance House (GFH) and the Tunisian government have created the first offshore finance centre in North Africa. The centre will be part of Tunis Financial Harbour, a $3 billion waterfront development in Tunis . . . GFH, which is based in Bahrain, hopes the centre will allow Tunisia to take advantage of its strategic position on the Mediterranean sea, and operate as a bridge between the EU and the rapidly growing economies of North Africa [and subSaharan Africa].”

    “However, despite the current poor climate, the potential for Islamic banking in Egypt is huge, and one should expect more moves from Abu Dhabi Islamic Bank into Egypt, possibly in the form of a buyout,” Executive Magazine (Feb 8 2011) reports, “A recent Middle East Business Intelligence report said it best, when it opined, ‘If Abu Dhabi Islamic Bank can make a success of offering Islamic products, the whole market will open up. We have already seen some of the local banks start to advertise their Islamic products in view of the competition for customers they see about to begin.’

    “Clearly Islamic banks in the Gulf are already anticipating the day when their home markets are saturated. And it appears that Egypt will be on the next front-line in the development of regional Islamic banking and finance.”

    “African countries such as Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia and Sudan are keen on future sukuk exercises (issuing Islamic bonds). Gambia debuted with a US$166m sukuk deal, privately sold in the US in 2006.” [International Finance Review (Reuters), 2008]

    The New York Times article “Islamic banking rises on oil wealth, drawing non-Muslims” ( November 22, 2007) reported: “Rising oil wealth is lifting Islamic banking – which adheres to the laws of the Koran and its prohibition against charging interest – into the financial mainstream. . . . In addition to Islamic loans, there are Islamic bonds, Islamic credit cards . . . Loans and bonds that conform to the Koran are already available in the United States. . . .

    “’This is an industry on its way from a niche industry to becoming a truly global industry,’ said Khawaja Mohammad Salman Younis, the managing director for operations in Malaysia for Kuwait Finance House, the world’s second-largest Islamic bank. ‘In the next three to five years you’ll see Islamic banks coming out in Australia, China, Japan and other parts of the world.’

    “In Islamic banking, financiers are required to share borrowers’ risks, meaning that depositors are treated more like shareholders, earning a portion of profits. Financing deals resemble lease-to-own arrangements, layaway plans, joint purchase and sale agreements, or partnerships.

    “The stampede into Islamic finance is mostly an effort to tap an estimated $1.5 trillion of funds sloshing around the Middle East, largely from higher oil prices. . . .Those investments have helped ignite an economic revival throughout the Muslim world at a time of increasing religious conservatism among Islam’s 1.6 billion faithful. A result is expanding demand for financial services that adhere to Islamic law . . .

    “And while the biggest Islamic banks are in the wealthy Gulf states, the most attractive potential markets are in Turkey and North Africa (emphasis added) and among European Muslims. . . .

    “. . . even non-Muslims are taking advantage of a growing range of Islamic products offering competitive returns. For instance, David Ong-Yeoh, a public relations executive tired of fretting over the rising interest rate on his adjustable rate mortgage, refinanced to a 30-year fixed loan from an Islamic financial institution. Now, he pays regular installments that include a predetermined profit margin for the bank.

    “’The terms are better than on conventional loans,’ said Ong-Yeoh, 41.

    “Islamic finance also avoids other prohibited practices. Shariah-compliant bankers cannot receive or provide funds for anything involving alcohol, gambling, pornography, tobacco, weapons or pork. Proponents of Islamic banking say these are limits any socially conscious investor can support, Muslim or not. They also envision wider appeal for Islamic banking’s ban on interest, which stems from the Koran’s prohibition against usury

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Ram,

    I thought you were changing. But sorry to say that you are back to your rantings.
    And please dont teach us about Islamic no interest banking. Lot of deals are done
    by calculating the fixed amount of interest and are given names like murahaba, sukuk etc.
    It is just a manupulation.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    yes but risk is known.interest banking is not creation of indians of hindus.it is banned in tora,bible quran and i think vedas.there cannot be anything worse than this.if we loose in bussiness we become slave.local mahajan keeps their women.or nations are mortgage.yes they buy at known and wait till u receive payment and forgive if u are not paid.most of my life i paid 30000dollars per month interest.almost all my labour is eaten by them.only issuing some papers.
    but it is market if idea is not good it will rejected by people.

    i dont want any certificate from u.if u want to have any more discussion i am ready.this rothchild family pai for communism killed 5crores russians.2 world wars now to make isreal ,they have already killed 70lacs of people.evrything is conspiracy and drama.hitler son of a jewish mother was asked to the game of jewish baiting.he only harrased jews so that they can go to israel.
    when first communist state soviet union was formed they had 176 minister.not one was russian.

    they are not jews they are zoinists bringing jews to israel so that all of them can be killed easily.

    most of my christian friend deal through islamic banking in middle.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    most of my christian friend deal through islamic banking in middle.east

    ram autar Reply:

    ram i dont know why it is called islamic banking .interest is banned in judaism and christianity.
    it should be called interest free banking.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, it should be called interest free banking
    — if it is really interest free, how do you think banks make money to pay salaries , all expenses, & still make profit. how do the bank then make money. pls educate me.

    anything islam is very good for you,

    ram autar Reply:

    raj indeas dont have any religion .almost every religion has banned this in human act.
    interest economy is in root of all problems of the world.
    in interest free economy bank become ur partner.suppose they will invest in fertilizer water and seed,if crop failed bank will not put interest on peasant.he has not to commit suicide.everybody is loosed.
    it is not islamic comcept.i.as i told u earlier,

    Interest is repeatedly condemned in the Bible. Aristotle denounced it, the Romans limited it, and the early Christian church prohibited it. .

    rothchild who control entire world through huge their bank.is creating all problem to finish competition .they alson own entire media of world,that is main reason they are after sharia.
    . .

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ramchandani jee “This is a view that has a long religious and historical tradition. Interest is repeatedly condemned in the Bible. Aristotle denounced it, the Romans limited it, and the early Christian church prohibited it. . . .

    “The belief that all interest charges are unjust now underpins Islamic finance. . . .Hoarding is frowned upon in the Koran, so savings earn no return unless put to productive use.

    “’Money should be used for creating better value in the country or the economy,’ Maraj said. ‘Money cannot generate money.’

    “Nor can Islamic banks simply trade money. ‘In the Islamic finance model, the banks are supposed to mobilize funds through a fund management concept,’ said Rafe Haneef, head of Islamic banking in Asia for Citigroup.

    “Indeed, Islamic banking is supposed to function more like private equity firms than conventional banking. ‘Private equity is an Islamic concept,’ Haneef said.

    “Industry proponents say this risk-sharing requirement helps reduce the kind of abuses that led to the subprime mortgage mess in the United States. Scholars consider it un-Islamic to overload a customer with debt or invest in a company with excessive debt.”

    The Washington Post, “Islamic Banking: Steady In Shaky Times” (Oct 31 2008), reported: “As big Western financial institutions have teetered one after the other in the crisis of recent weeks, another financial sector is gaining new confidence: Islamic banking. Proponents of the ancient practice, which looks to sharia law for guidance and bans interest and trading in debt, have been promoting Islamic finance as a cure for the global financial meltdown.

    “This week, Kuwait’s commerce minister, Ahmad Baqer, was quoted as saying that the global crisis will prompt more countries to use Islamic principles in running their economies. U.S. Deputy Treasury Secretary Robert M. Kimmet, visiting Jiddah, said experts at his agency have been learning the features of Islamic banking.

    “Though the trillion-dollar Islamic banking industry faces challenges with the slump in real estate and stock prices, advocates say the system has built-in protection from the kind of runaway collapse that has afflicted so many institutions. For one thing, the use of financial instruments such as derivatives, blamed for the downfall of banking, insurance and investment giants, is banned. So is excessive risk-taking.

    “’The beauty of Islamic banking and the reason it can be used as a replacement for the current market is that you only promise what you own [contrast to western banks fractional reserve system]. Islamic banks are not protected if the economy goes down — they suffer — but you don’t lose your shirt,’

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Ram,

    You have still not understood how Islamic banks work.
    They also work on interest. Exact rate of interest is calculated and charged
    to the custoemrs. The bank also invest in the products and take a fixed
    interest amount. Only different names are given . This is just a manupilation –
    eyewash and nothing else. In today;s scenario it is immposible to
    do the banking without charging interest. You are living in illusion.

    ram autar Reply:

    mohan bhai let it come,at the end it market forces which decided the end of evry product.
    if it is harmful idea will vanish from the market.
    they are scared of loosing in race.as poors are feeling more safety in interest free economy.

  • Ravi

    Rizwan

    My appologies for re-posting something that I posted in Zia’s last blog. My reason for posting, is to bring it to you attention in case you had miseed it and to assure you that such ridiculous statments do not remain unchallenged, they are ridiculed.

    _________________________________________________

    Ravi says:
    February 9, 2011 at 3:43 am

    India’s First Ever Eugenics Experiment

    Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu – born in MymenSingh which is now in Bangladesh – was a very distinguished and an eminent scientist, whose main field of study was Plant Physiology. This much is well known and every Indian is very proud of him, however, what is less known is that Dr Boshu was also in charge of a secret project, which was personally sanctioned by the Prime Minister of India.

    This project – a first of its kind – introduced the field of EUGENICS to India. Eugenics – in case you were wondering – is the science of improving the genetic composition of a population.

    Here I would like to introduce to you an Urdu word – Quom – it simply means a community, a society, a nation. I am sure you are familiar with the poet Dr Mohammad Iqbal’s composition Sare jahan se achcha Hindustan hamara. This patriotic poem is often referred to as a Quomi Tarana – a national anthem. The rest I assume is obvious enough.

    The word Quom is very musical, almost guttural in its enunciation, and those who freshly learn it can’t help repeating it. Best way to picture this, is to imagine a child running around continuously repeating the word it has recently learnt, without actually understanding its meaning. Quom, Quom. Quom.

    The Indian Prime Minister, was worried that the Bengali Quom was increasingly drifting towards fascism, and in order to arrest this unwelcome development, he approved a secret Eugenics project. Its objective was to produce a genetically modified Quom, which had an increased sense of Rationality and Humanity, just like the white English people do.

    Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu was quick to realise the potential benefits this project would bestow upon its subjects, and being a Bengali, he felt the primitive urge to favour his own Quom. He therefore chose two Bengali men as subjects of this project.

    After the first phase of the experiment was over, the Prime Minister was invited to review early results and this is what he observed:

    1. The first subject instead of losing his fascistic instincts had actually become an enthusiastic and a committed fascist. Upon release from the experiment he first became a pamphleteer for the RSS and then a research analyst with the Hindu Fascist think tank called Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee Institute. He now writes a column for the TOI. He has grown a walrus moustache, so much favoured by the RSS glitterati.

    The second subject fared less well, so his post experiment fate requires a slightly longer report.

    2.The second subject was beginning to show signs of delusion, he imagined he was a Rational Humanist, just like Walter Mitty did, or had done if he had known what it meant to be a Rational Humanist.

    3. This individual was sent to a state abattoir, where he was taught the basic skills of Butchery.

    4. As luck would have it, a Hospital in Kent was looking for someone who was able to remove varicose veins quickly. This, one imagines, he could do.

    5. Another long lasting side effect of this unfortunate Eugenics experiment is that he developed a sixth sense. Let me be more specific, he developed an ability to determine a Quom’s persistent characteristics, by merely looking at the freshly removed varicose vein. Here are some of the more profound deductions he was able to make, the instant the offending vein was removed.

    6. OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS TO UK GUJRATIS ARE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY FRONT.

    7. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL.

    8. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.

    9. Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer.

    10. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small. In fact I have felt bengalees (that is exclusively WB) share a few common traits with english , some aspect of english life is GRAND , beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.

    These are his own words from this very blog. I have not editorialised them at all. Any suggestion that the second subject is a regular contributor to this blog, is entirely deliberate.

    Those among you who are acutely observant would have noted, how imbued with Rationalism and Humanity are the statements numbered from 7 to 10.

    One final observation this eminent butcher made, was let out of the bag in a previous blog, and that is Bengali’s are now defined as those who live in West Bengal. The Eugenics project, as if by the magic of genetic manipulation has completely removed all Bengaliness from those who live in East Bengal (Bangladesh).

    I wonder what Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu would be like had he been re-incarnated again in Mymensingh Bangladesh. How much of the original Bengali characteristics would he still be able to recognise in the Bengali Quom among the Bangladeshis, considering the success of the genetic manipulation he carried out during India’s first Eugenics experiment.

    [Reply]

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    Ravi, the only mistake you all have made on this blog is to actually believe that shan is a doctor. He has really pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes here. The net is full of such delusional trolls

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi Pakistani kabhi nahi ban sakta hai hindustani (that is virtues)

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Ravi, just noted what the cleaner-from-heathrow-shan posing as a doctor wrote-

    James T Cassidy says:
    July 23, 2010 at 6:14 am
    Dear Shan

    You are mesmerizingly brilliant, a veritable treasure of knowledge, on issues past and present and your linguistic quiver has arrows to meet all debatory challenges, with verifiable sources, and deliver your responses with absolute precision, be it sarcastic, humorous, incisive or downright abrasive. It is not possible for me to meet you in person, but I wish I could.

    HAHAHAHA. Somebody hand me a vomit bowl. Shan poses as an Englishman called Cassidy, praises himself in such flowery prose and then saves it as a badge of honour on his PC. What an imposter and what a white arse licker. pUKE

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Rizwan , the zihad friendly camel rider, please go the HT archive , you can see for yourself.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    “Paharaoh’s last sigh; what it means for Islam”

    It does not mean anything for Islam. It means a lot for Arab Muslims. Arab Muslims have shown to the world that what they want is no different from other freedom loving people. They may also have contributed to changing the perceptions, as others have noted in this blog, iff these impressions itch in the minds of people and replace the “jehadi bombings scenes”

    The Arab autocrats will loosen their grip for the time being. Gadaffi has shown he woul not mind killing his people. The question is what will be the threshold.

    I do see one possibility in the med/long term that may potentially affect Islam quite badly. That will happen when these promises are not kept in Egypt or the peaceful revolutions in other Arab countries are suppressed by the rulers. Many of these idealistic people may be attracted to extremist political Islam whose proponents are waiting in the wings. My only prayer in that situation is that they localize and explode in their countries, and do not take it to the shores of other countries.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    L Mirza

    Reading your post, particularly the last point….

    “My only prayer in that situation is that they localize and explode in their countries, and do not take it to the shores of other countries.”

    As a devil ’s advocate, I would like to present the following explanation of terrorism being exported to other countries, particularly to the USA.

    Western countries act as a block, either in the shape of durable coalitions such as NATO
    Or even as ad hock loose coalitions as is the case in Afghanistan.

    Then it should not be difficult to understand if Islam in retaliation forms such concepts as Umma and tries to act as a one body. This is not new, it was attempted before, but it never came off due to historical divisions among Islamic Countries.

    Last few years has seen the emergence of POLITICAL ISLAM that transcends national boundaries – just as NATO does – and has shown some measure of success in countering what ever they think is against their interests.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi (who has been identified as a member of Babbar Khalsa by Rajeev)
    Weak Blame others use subterfuge , ration people LOOKS IN THE MIRROR, and MUSLIM SYMPATHISERS AND DO GOODERS make same contribution as Saudi men do the Hyderabadi economy.

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    there goes the pathetic SHAN, not arguing, not debating, just mudslinging. First Ravi was a circ muzzie , now he is babbar khalsa. SHAN , are you out of your mind?
    Then another dig at muslims by bringing in what Saudi men do in Hyderabad.
    DOCTOR SHAN IS IT ?????????

    L Mirza Reply:

    Ravi..

    I am dumbfounded. Are you saying that NATO, or the temporary Afghanistan alliance is an attack on Islam by western (“christian”) countries???

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No I am not suggesting that.

    But a lot of the Pakistani’s in the UK think that. Al Mahajaroon thinks that.

    Ravi Reply:

    L Mirza

    I can feel that you do not believe me. Hence why you feel dumbfounded.

    Perhaps, this illustrates my point.

    An extract from ….

    Global terrorism has increased since 9/11 attacks
    by Carl Conetta
    Project on Defense Alternatives Briefing Memo #38
    updated 25 September 2006

    Most explicit was the rationale offered by Shehzad Tanweer, one of the 7 July 2005 London bombers, in a video aired by Aljazeera in 2006:8

    For the non-Muslims in Britain, you may wonder what you have done to deserve this… Your government has openly supported the genocide of more than 150,000 innocent Muslims in Fallujah… What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks which will intensify and continue to until you pull all your troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq… You will never experience peace until our children in Palestine, our mothers and sisters in Kashmir, and our brothers in Afghanistan and Iraq feel peace.

    ___________________________________________________

    Mr Mirza I suggest you do read Carla Conetta, she is very good. She is an academic and not a journalist or a columnist.

    Please do not feel I am trying to change your views. I am not. I don’t care that much.

    My focus to keep myself straight and not fall prey to knee jerk politics.

    Rizwan Reply:

    ravi saheb, spot on. BUT I disagree with this transnational ummah, 160 million Indian muslims is the only ummah I need. Add 850 million other Indians and this ummah is my milky way.
    see this video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfje0 – this is the modern Indian muslim, see how he shafted Gen Musharraf in his sorry arse.
    It is one of my favourite videos, I and my brother can recite Maulana Madani’s brilliant lines by heart

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ravi-

    India then will have to reassess its startegies with its eenemy Pakistan and how it deals with its Muslims.India has a lot to worry about its western, easytern, neighboours, far away trading partners, and its internal Muslim population if that is correct. And that will not be a pretty picture for India, and especially to Indian Muslims..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    That sounds like a threat. Was it ?

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Singh

    I invite you to read this learned article.

    ………..http://www.comw.org/pda/0609bm38.html

    ram autar Reply:

    eenemy Pakistan

    pakistanis are not enemy of india but people like are enemy of all ur neighbours including pakistan.be friendly u can get a lot.
    only sindh has 178billion tons of coal.which can be burnt underneath and can run turbines.can produce cheap electricity enough for pakistan india and afghanistan.indian engineers and companies can make good money.hate mongering cannot bring anything.on field u cannot defeat them as they have 40 yrs experiece of terrian fighting.

    do something good for india.china is entering there.

  • Rizwan

    Benoy, you say whether SHAN is a doctor or not, what he says about terrorism in UK/US is true- ie they were of Pakistani origin. Benoy, I do not think anyone in real life or this blog disagrees with it.
    But 911 did not have Pakistanis in it.
    What I merely wanted to point out is that SHAN’S writings are very repulsive, esp the way he addresses other people who disagree with him. I was merely giving him a taste of his own medicine.
    I ask you , read my passage at 3.04 pm where I have quoted him and tell me, hand on heart THAT THAT GARBAGE COULD HAVE EVER BEEN WRITTEN BY A DOCTOR.
    I confess to having a short fuse and will control it in the future.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @All my rationalist friends, this is from a book called The world of Christopher Marlowe, by David Riggs.page130/132
    @LMirza , Syed , ShoebK , This is what Islam needs , from somebody who has an enduring love for all thing Islamic bar the violence and certitude. Now read on
    Richard Baines was a Cambridge man who matriculated from Christ Collegein 1568(yes 1568, you are reading it correct)
    Baines assailed his fellow seminarians with a scathing critique of the catholic church.He frequently resorted to sarcasm , saying that the ‘ mystical ceremonies’of the eucharist were ‘ no more than pretty gestures performing which even a Turk would look holy’
    He offered to TEACH A NEW METHOD OF PRAYER RECITING TWENTY FOUR LETTERS OF ALPHABET’
    ON FASTING DAYS(what will rizwan do) Baines wasthe voice of temptation ‘COME FRIEND WHAT SHALL WE EAT TONIGHT ?Will be have a meat pie(BEEF AND PORK PIE FOR ALL THOSE IN THE SUBCONTINENT[MY WORDS])

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Raju dear- I said- Or, do you think we muslims in India or so cowed down that we cannot hit back at any moron we disagree with.
    A lot of muslims from India are too apologetic on these blogs. Sometimes we see disgusting people like SHAN throwing their weight around and calling muslims ‘circumcised’ ‘talebani’ muzzies’, which he has done and lot worse I cant remember now. He attacked a senior citizen like doc mishra by calling him prick and dick, he attacks Balwinder’s faith and community instead of arguing reasonably.

    To answer your q, -
    - who are “we”?- we are modern Indian muslims, we have opinions, we will attack morons of any community , even our own
    - does anybody who disagree with “we” automatically become a moron- never said that. I sometimes find out, on reflection, that the other person is right
    - and why would you hit back at the one “we” disagree with? – hitting back is just an expression, sorry if it offended you.

    had to stop SHAN and I make no bones about using language of his kind. I ask you , read my passage at 3.04 pm where I have quoted him and tell me, hand on heart THAT THAT GARBAGE COULD HAVE EVER BEEN WRITTEN BY A DOCTOR

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Rizwan

    I think I understand you. However, there are disturbing implications; implications of a monolithic behavior, evident within the thoughts, although not explicitly stated.

    “we are modern Indian Muslims, we will attack morons of any community, even our own”..

    Shoulnt it be “I will attack and face anybody irrespective of ones religion or belief”?

    I o not represent Indian christians. Similarly, no Hindu writing in this blog represents Hindus. So, there is n o need for you to represent a group, you are free to talk about your specific opinions on behalf of you but not for a group.

    The purpose of these discussions is to get to the truth, in that pursuit, it is an aha moment when one understands “on reflection, the other person is right”

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @bloggers .ravi khalistani aka pakistani have done a FATEH ALI KHAN , his lines IN WHICH HE EXTOLLS
    You will never experience peace until our children , our mothers and sisters in Kashmir, and our brothers feel peace. WOULD DIRECTOR OF MILITARY INTELLIGENCE OR RAW TAKE NOTE PLEASE

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Will the local mental insititutions in Kent also take note.

    This semi trained butcher has gone deolali

    [Reply]

    Rizwan Reply:

    SHAN- there you go again, no debates, just personal attacks and attacks on faith. ARE YOU REALLY A DOCTOR, I thought doctors were busy studying, writing research papers, passing exams. Ravi said no such thing.
    For those who missed it, my prev post- SHAN This is your intellectual capacity or lack of it. Were you on LSD when you wrote it or is this all your diseased brain can come up with. Everyone enjoy-

    shan says:
    February 6, 2011 at 11:06 pm
    @zia, congratulations, comment on Indians from different states. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small.In fact I have felt bengalees beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.
    ——————-
    This is an analysis put up by a doctor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never in my whole life come across such garbage. You are a total moron, employed at Heathrow as a cleaner most likely, with enough local UK knowledge to build a fairy tale of being a doctor.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Shan did empathize with the Pakistani Muslim man who was attaciked why white supremacists, and criticized the minor punishment given to the attackers.

    I joked in my response that “in Pakistan he would have been killed, at least he is alive” .. He responded back saying “it is like telling the victims of dotbusters that they get better ambulance servive in New Jersey than in India”

    So, question his language, but not his impartiality and calling a spade a spade.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You are not on the recieving end of his unwarranted venom, so I hope you do not mind, if I do not agree with you.

    The fact that he, some times is critical of his own kind, and was critical of the English Judicial system, does not make him impartial or rational or humanist.

    He is nothing more and nothing less than a crypto fascist, a bit too full of himself and generally speaking a dispicable fellow.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    “sometimes he is critical of his own kind” — What do you mean asto what is “his own kind”…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    He himslef has sited that he is critical of Bengalis, and that gives him the label of being impartial and objective.

    I quote “.Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer”

    shan Reply:

    The fact that he, some times is critical of his own kind, and was critical of the English Judicial system, does not make him impartial or rational or humanist.

    If this is not a measure of impartiality , which is essentially looking at things rationally and objectively WHICH IS PART AND PARCEL OF MY VOCATION.
    Do gooders and Hypocrites are worst enemy one can have, RAVI plonker falls in that category so far muslims are concerned. As for Rizwan , HIS MIND NEEDS TO BE ILLUMINATED , FROM THE DUNGEON OF BLIND FAITH

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    Impartiality is looking at all available facts and then making a judgement without prejudice. I have never ever seen from you an example of that.

    You SHAN are as far from being impartial as it is possible for an individual to get. You hold irrational prejudices as well as well as ever widen you lens to consider full FACTS.

    The less said about you pretending to be RATIONAL and HUMANIST the better. I have covered this subject before many a times.

    You are delusional, the only person you fool, is yourself.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    Here is an example of what I mean.

    ” As for Rizwan , HIS MIND NEEDS TO BE ILLUMINATED , FROM THE DUNGEON OF BLIND FAITH”

    This statement is baseless and has no basis in fact.

    However, it is entirely prejudicial, and a reflection of where your sympathies lie. You are an unrefined H I N D U F U N D O.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy,
    being impartial does not mean training a firing gun at a motley crowd – with your eyes closed for good measure- hey, I am impartial, I had no friggin’ idea who I killed or why.

    @Ravi,
    still working hard to prove what a cra ppy religion Hinduism is?

    @Zia, why don’t you cut and paste the national anthem next time as your next blog? The commenters will still be as busy :D

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    THE CAESAR HAS RETURNED AFTER HIS CAMPAIGN IN CHINA.lol shan

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Binoy

    You have been contributing to this blog a lot longer than I have.

    I hope you remember that over the last six moths that I have been active here, I have given SHAN, at three opportunity to desist personal attacks, and stick to arguements. All three times he rejected the offer.

    If you do not remember, then I will understand.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Ravi the hypocrite and do gooder, these are Rizwan’s lines
    Raju dear- I said- Or, do you think we muslims in India or so cowed down that we cannot hit back at any moron we disagree with

    YES WE MUSLIMS, not we INDIANS THAT IS THE DUNGEON OF BLIND FAITH, ie, BELEIVERS WHO SUBMIT WITHOUT QUESTIONING
    To a RATIONALIST AND HUMANIST IT IS A REFLECTION OF “AN AREA OF DARKNESS”

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Col Gadaffi’s son just gave a speech on Lybian TV (at their time 1 AM).. Now I do not know what official position he has in Lybyan Govt!

    He says bllod will follow, Lybia will idisintegarte into many small countries, Westerners will take over oil fields, Islamist Caliphate will arise in Lybia (and no western govt will like that and they will move in), the movement is supported and funded by Lybians who are in foreign countries, the movement is led by drunks and drug users, that the Arab media is lying, that the army does not know how to eal with protests an that is the reason for the army shooting protestors……

    Actually it was a pathetic sight!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    according to news in Fox ’s parent chanel murdoch’s SKY news , apparently 120 have been slaughtered.According to michael rifkind Ex british Foreign secretary , whatever gaddafi may try , IF PEOPLE RISE IN MILLIONS NO AMOUNT OF REPRESSION CAN HOLD WATER.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    SHAN- definitely not a doctor, would any doctor grovel so??????
    Let me explain what I said- ‘Or, do you think we muslims in India or so cowed down that we cannot hit back at any moron we disagree with.’
    Normally, muslims from a very young age in India are taught by their parents to stay out of trouble, to not tangle with the majority. That is what I see on blogs, the only time a muslim asserts himself is when his community is besmirched.
    But I am from a different generation. I don’t just speak out on muslim issues, if I see hindus or Sikhs squabbling I may take a stance. I was enjoying hugely the inputs by Syedbhai, Dr Mishra, Gopi, Hegde and others- not saying I was agreeing with them- that when SHAN the Heathrow toilet cleaner was coming in abusing everyone, he was simply driving people away. A discussion was becoming a name calling riot.
    So that is what I meant you brainless SHAN, that I am not cowed. That I will speak out on all issues, like any Agarwal, Sharma, Singh or Rao, like any Indian

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Rizwan

    “muslims from a very young age are taught to stay out of trouble, to not tangle with the majority”

    I would say instead of not to “tangle”, they are taught not to “mingle”

    They are also taught the book, made to memorize “infidels” “kauffers” “dar-il-islam” etc creating a sense of exclusivity , non mingling,.

    Hope people like you and Syed and Mirza , through your actions here on the blog and through meaningful actions on the ground create a new forward looking well particpating Muslim youth.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rizwan,
    That I will speak out on all issues, like any Agarwal, Sharma, Singh or Rao, like any Indian
    Bravo! Yes, spoken like a true Indian. Thank you; came here after ages.. and saw your comment which essentially made my day.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    SHAN- the cleaner masquerading as doctor- haha

    I remembered this exchange-
    Balwinder Sandhu says:
    February 18, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    @Shan, shan, read your statement-
    “”””””””there are 27 DOCTORS in our family at last count. My relatives are in Yale .””””””!!!!!!
    Again a cheap irrelevant boast, no one is interested in how many docs in family or Yale. Your thoughts and the way you conduct yourself here is imp.
    I have never heard of a doctor calling others circumcised (ravi), dick (mishra), talebani etc.
    You are disgusting and a discredit to the wonderful medical community.
    Goodbye—————
    SHAN- doctors are cultured, have excellent bedside manners- you are uncouth, lack class and one wonders what manners your parents taught you

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Zia’s blog has become sidetracked into whether Shan has
    A) manners
    B) a medical degree.
    Sorry, it is getting too acrimonious now. Shan hope you have learned a lesson. Riswan was right- you were driving the good people away

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Rizwan the we muslims fame , and sandhu the gloater of muslim haplessness

    PLEASE TYPE YOUNG BENGAL IN WIKIPEDIA , it will explain a lot of my stance.
    One thing a surgeon cannot afford . is FEAR and his work dictated by the wish of the patient to be PLEASED. HE ONLY STICKS to what is right for the patient.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan-

    People are using the “Likud” tricks on you. Do continue to contribute; however, tone down name calling.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Thank you Benoy, well said

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    All,

    Do you like the format (?) of the blog going into new page? It is difficult to track and lose its continuity. Each new page can very well be a new subject.

    Does anybody else have a problem? Any “technical ” reader there who can suggest a different technique to Zia?.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @raju Does anybody else have a problem
    - is it possible to filter out ram autars messages….

    — zia has to be appriciated for not censoring his blog & no stupid registration to post.
    - sometimes – message waiting for mediation, don’t know the key words which trigger that, mostly it gets posted, sometimes not posted.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Post script , @Rizwan. As much I agree calcutta has become a pit , but I cannot help pointing out that after GUJRAT RIOT , muslims (atleast the one shown on tv who had lost all his family) CHOSE CALCUTTA TO SETTLE OG ALL STATES This was paraded by the left front Govt as their success.. Think about it , Kerala , Mysore , Mumbai, UP , Bihar Hyderabad , NONE OF THESE ARE PARTICULARLY MUSLIM FRIENDLY PLACE. And Deganga is muslim on hindu. Given India’s past record on communal harmony , Allah Na Karey YOUR FAMILY NEED TO SEEK REFUGE IN BACKWARD CALCUTTA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims are thankful to biman bose.who change general thinkingn and action of peolple.
    bengal is mother of hindu fascism and brhmistic zoinism.founder of rss took thje ideas from bengal.
    calcutta is best of our metropolitans old is gold.cpm changed the target.did not fought with brhmnst piosonous thought.of communalism and parochialism.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,

    how easy to blame all muslim troubles on rss, hindus, take your hatred somewhere else.

    ram autar Reply:

    they propagate hatred against muslimsattack them kill them.i have read their literature for 15yrs.
    they made me muslim.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @shan, ravi, ramavtar, Tony Blair and anyone else I may have clashed with- these blogs get a bit out of hand sometimes. It is 6 pm here in Hayes and I am off to my pub for a drink. Tomorrow new blog, new debates. I hope no hard feelings- I will try and be very sweet.
    If you ever come this way I will buy you a drink.
    Actually, that offer does exclude Tony Blair (Bush’s poodle henchman- I lay the blame of 7/7 on him) . there I go again– better be off. The patiala peg awaits.
    Once again, no hard feelings , I hope

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    why u dont include RAJEEV.he just called PAAJI(notorius).while i always u balwindere bhai.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ Mishrajee- unfinished business- you said Gujrati muslims in UK are better off than Sikhs and thta we are prone to alcoholism and petty violence.
    O U C H – dont think you got away with it. Like Schwarzeneger said- I WILL BE BACK. hehe

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    I never forget, just you wait doc

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Ok have a good one, drink well.. We (christians and Sikhs) are good at it!

    But I do hold Muslims themselves responsible for their miserable achievements (dont count anything before 1300!) Look at us Christians and Sikhs in India.. Well Ravi will say that Hindus will decimate Indian Muslims, and then will come for us (do not know in what order, Christians followed by Sikhs or vice versa).. btw my family can trace 2000 years back in my land… I have only seen Christians becoming richer, holding more positions etc and not the other way.. Still waiting for the Hindu attackers for 2000 years!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    RAJUu forgot kandhamal.it is only few rears ago.1984 is also not very long ago.i am talking of hindutva nt hindus.
    u talk of muslim knowledge.in 8th century,spanish city of cordoba had 700 libraries with 1 million books each.europe had no concept of libraries.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Ram, I said not to count anything before 1300! Agreed about the 8th and 9th and 10th century–no problemo..but now are 10 more centuries forward….Cordoba was a centre of excellence, thanks to the glories of Islam at THAT TIME.

    1984 was not a preplanned attack. While it was gruesome, and the congress leaders culpable, it was a normal reaction to a favourite leader being assassinated. Anybody trying to colour it as a HIndu-Sikh riot is untrue to the events. What is unpardonable is the dragging of the cases, and not the swift carriage of justice. Many congresss leaders are still playing with our legal system.

    I, as a Christian, do not have any issue with Kandhamal. It was a reaction to “fresh” conversions, Christian converters should have been more sensitive. I will have a problem only if people who were converted eons ago are attacked and displaced without any real or imaginary/triggered provocation..

    You must be smoking through ur a— if you think a country of 130 crore people with zillions of languages and religion and background will not have any localized trouble spots.
    .

    ram autar Reply:

    at 1:36 am

    Ram, I said not to count anything before 1300! Agreed about the 8th and 9th and 10th century

    WHEN BRITISHERS TAKEN OVER INDIA WE HAD 93%LITERACY.WHEN THEY LEFT WE HAD 8%.
    NOW LEVEL OF EDUCATION among muslims IS LESS BECAUSE WE ARE PUSHED TO POVERTY.EDUCATION HAS BEEN MADE VERY EXPENSIVE.OUT OF OUR REACH&.OUT OF REACH TO EVRY POOR.that is WHY education should be made fundamental right of very indian THROUGH CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

    raju u are lying u are not christian.u are HINDU zoinist.almost every church was destroyed and every women (sometime even hindu by mistake )in viccinity was raped.while u are uttering non sense.i know fonly fw among u are like this.but their deeds are really black.
    zoinists talk non-violence but practice the worst kind of violence against Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Dalits and also all women,and also those hindus who do not follw them.

    If any good-hearted, far-sighted, impartial, noble historian were to come in future, she or he can write the sordid, atrophied, violent, criminal past /present of India only in letters of blood.

    shan Reply:

    @Raju kurien , I have come across quite a few Malayali nurses in uk. THEY ARE CHRISTIAN BY NAME , otherwise they are HINDU THROUGH AND THROUGH in culture , taste aspirations and WORLD VIEW. One white nurse said he approved every thing in india BAR THIS ARRANGED MARRIAGE this SUSAN malayali nurse apparently had. To this white male nurse SHE HAD NO ATTRIBUTES THAT MADE HER STAND OUT DIFFERENT TO HINDUS. Would probably same applies to muslims UNLESS HIJAB AND WORLD VIEW COMES IN THE WAY.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Shan-

    Malayali nurses, especially Christian nurses are all over the world. Following the Christian women pioneers in the field, many Hindu women also have joine the nursing profession.

    Christians here follow most of the Hindu customs – including wearing dot on the forehead. Along with Susans, you can see Sindhu, Sandhya, Vimala, Arun, Ajit, Akash etc among Christians, more and more now. (look into my own name).. I am yet to see a Ajit abdullah; in fact I see more and more hyphenated names. Many of them go to temples that allow Christians to enter, such as the number 1 temple ,Sabarimalai. A Christian state minister, Jose, took the Sabarimali pilgrimage this year. KJ Jesudas, f(translates as the servant of Jesus) famous musician and playback singer, routinely does prayer concerts in famous temples of Kerala and karnataka.

    btw Shoulnt it be “she had no attributes different to BRITISH except for color and accent”???
    Just picking on u.
    .

    shan Reply:

    @raju kurien ,as it happens that girlwas well liked by the white colleagues ,may be because of her personality or her name!! .JESUDAS was one of the finest singer to sing in BOLLYWOOD. My bengali pride is surfacing here , SALIL CHOUDHURI gave him his first break and the only other person to use him was RAJESH ROSHAN (half Bengali). never understood why he didn’t sing more for Bollywood, MAY BE HE WAS TOO GOOD

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Yes, jesudas has sung several songs under Salil Chowdry.. In fact Salil has done music for malayalam too– he gave music for the first colour movie in Malayalam almost forty years ago, , the national award winnner “chemmeen” ( prawn). Jesudas gave some melodious songs for that.
    I believe he had a problem with hini accentHindi accent. And then he was making lots of money in singing in all the four south Indian languages, as well as classical carnatic.

    I just used him as an example like Susan; thriving in their own religion and personalities, absorbing and expanding, accepting and participating, true to unity in diversity

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Raju, Chemeen blew me away when I read it 25 years ago- it was written by Thakanazi Pillai who if memory serves me right got the Jnanpith award or some other national award.
    Story about a legend- as long as the fisherman’s wife is chaste, her husband’s tenuous life is safe at sea

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Balwinder

    Yes..Thakazhi Shiva Shankar Pillai.. Yes, the core is about the chastity of fisherwoman. she He did receive Jnanapith.. fyi, this year’s jnapith award winner is also a Malayali, the famous poet ONV Kurup ..You should read his poems, I believe they may have it in Hindi and English.

    btw Amritha Pritam’s and Mulk Raj Anand’s short stories used to come in Malayalam magazines. Prominent Malayalam magazines always translated short stories and poems from allleading languages of India for their Independence Day and Republic Day issues.

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    i saw Pinjar movie last year. I cried, also cos it resonates with us Panjabis. Amrita Pritam I think had written the story

    ram autar Reply:

    gujrati muslims are bania convert.for dalit or bhangi convert will take time.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    @ramavtar- you are funny man. Rajeev calls me paaaaaaaaaaaaaji- which is respectful.
    He does not call me paji whuch is a gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaali.
    hehe- you scoundrel, you are trying to rile me up

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sandhu jee i was upset with rajeev now i understand.i was really surprised.sikhs have very good brain
    cannot be riled easily.anyhow i is still better to confirm from rajeev.

    Vinay Reply:

    This is the opinion of an outsider regarding an unknown religion Islam and a known community Muslims. I have only seen them in those countries, where they are a minority, where educated and well to do are minority among this minority.
    The feeling of the second group (minority among minorities) has been brought out nicely by a native Muslim poet “Being with you, not being you”. I could empathise with those lyrics, when I myself became a minority in a western world.
    Here, I am just stating the psyche that has imprinted on us(majority) about the first group (majority of the minority).

    1> Attitude : A quality sometimes respected, sometimes feared. Muslims have spines, unlike majority Hindus. When I was among minority, I could admire Muslim’s guts, their non apologetic attitude towards their identity. Back in India, when I become a majority, I feared the same attitude, as they shake the majority confidence.
    In a debate during Babri Masjid issue, the argument with Ravi then was, whether Islam being imposed on Hindus or Hinduism is being imposed on Muslims (in India). Why does the majority feel insecure that a minority (5 to 15% in different countries) can impose their culture on majority?
    Amazon river modifies the colour and salinity of the Atlantic for hundred miles from the delta. Can an ocean which is much bigger than the river remain calm when a powerful river is pumping millions of gallons of water in a second?

    2>Negativity/Victimhood : The common point with a uneducated/unemployed muslim in UK/India and educated well to do liberal Muslims like Mahesh Bhat. They feel they have been targeted by society, ONLY because of their religion. (Our society is so hetorogenous. Every community/caste feels, they are targettted because of their surname. Muslim, though they think their position is different are not actually different).
    a> If there is an underachievement, blame Indian caste system. Say, it suppressed Muslims for ages: Then how come equally oppressed Dalits learn to move on?
    b>In UK, blame it on the Whites who ill treated their parents and showed racial attitude. Then, how did Sikhs who also came with them, suffered like them moved on?
    (For a change, Deoband Maulana Vastanvi says let’s move on, but immediately Zia feels bitter, Modi has not apologised still). Can a community grow without any positivity ?
    c> If someone says, some Sharia laws exploit women, point at Devadasi system or Sati system. Indian society progressed because, it found these practises irrelevent today. If Muslim community need to progress, they also need to shed some practises. Pointing wrong practises in other communities wihout taking a hard introspective look within will not improve the status quo.

    3>Vulnerability to crime : (I am not speaking about the countries where they are majority). There is a
    higher percentage of the community compared to their proportional representation in population. The underworld dealings may be a realty affair in India, drug/sex racket in UK. One can say, poverty creates such people, but there must be equal number of poor Dalits staying along with them. Why they could not become Haji Mastan or Dawood? The community may be fearless, but so are Sikhs. Then why we never had a Sardar Don anytime? Doesn’t factors 1 and 2 (negative attitude) when mixed with poverty and ignorance contribute to the third one?

    If Muslim’s fearless attitude is tapped in a positive way, they can contribute to economy like Sikhs. Making them feel as a victimised community all the time (for vote banks), will invariably teach them hate culture and make them follow the route of another victimised community Blacks.
    Crime culture is not like Jihadi culture where a proffessional is ready to die for their ideologies. Any
    moment they realise their ideologies are destroying them, they can get back to normal life. Crime culture and poverty cannot. They breed for generations.
    Unlike Blacks and Whites, who were of different race, Asian muslims are us. But this negative attitude will drift the communities apart and spiral them downwards. Instead of standing out from the society to scrutinise whether it treats them well, just be a part; good or bad. In this regard, one needs to applaud Vastani’s corrective measure who is trying to fill the community with positivity.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Vinay

    Mastan, Dawood etc – One has to be cognizant of manmade laws (say against smuggling, hawala, property, prostitution….) and god made laws (Sharia, the Book(. So, crimes from the man made law perspecive are and may not be crimes from a sharia perspective. State does not exist for the believer….Dawood becomes a darling of the believers!

    ram autar Reply:

    dawood saved muslims of mumbai through blasts.which he was forced to do after continous mascare of muslims after demolition of babri mosque.read sree kant report.hundreds of muslim youth hounded by police are still missing.
    yes he is darling of believers.but we dont approve his other activities,in which shiv sena rss has better expertize.

    raj Reply:

    @hehy ram, dawood saved muslims of mumbai through blasts
    — if any hindu organization does these to save hindus,you shout from roof. how easy to whitewash dawood, and justify his actions. talking about action reaction, but for gujrath, you balme hindus…

    — Missionary school burnt down in Kashmir
    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/missionary-school-burnt-down-in-kashmir/20110223.htm
    — you blame everyone for muslims not educated, when muslims burn down schools.
    — last time you said muslims did not chase away pundits, but they went on picnic.
    – first hidus, now christians terrorised by religion of peace.
    – as usual silent burial by seclarist. (indian variety.)

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Raj-

    This is not the first time Christian properties, churches etc are destroyed in India by Muslims.

    Tipu Sultan did that in 1820s in the old Malabar area. As a part of his “padayottam’ (Lightning invasion), he destroyed many temples, converted many Hindus. He also destroyed many catholic churches in the Malabar coast, especially in Mangalore, and converted many Catholics (the first and only Christian to Muslim conversion in Indian subcontinent).

    For students of history, he also briefly named present day Kozhikode (Calicut) as Islamabad, as the capital of his newly conquered Malabar..

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Raj- oops, Tipu’s run was in 1780s.

    raj Reply:

    @gopi, Raj- oops, Tipu’s run was in 1780s.

    don’t worry, even in 20th century it is no better !

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi

    Tipu Sultan did that in 1820s in the old Malabar area. As a part of his “padayottam’ (Lightning invasion), he destroyed many temples, converted many Hindus. He also destroyed many catholic churches in the Malabar coast, especially in Mangalore, and converted many Catholics

    dont speak lies all his top ministers were hindus like krishna rao.give me name of one temple he
    demolished.britishers were involved in damaging the temples to blame on tipu,to divide society
    and win india.christian conversion is not available on record anywhere.
    u want to see the deed of christian in ndia.read GOA INQUISITION,thousands of muslms were
    burnt alve and yheir mosque (some of them famous of adil shahi time)converted in to church.

    regarding RAJ he should know that during vaishnva rule all shiv temples were demolished and
    shivbhakt murdered.
    tipu was patriot he tried to stop indian occupation from british robbers.he died doing that.

    raj Reply:

    some more
    - they say, muslim is not a monolith,
    but ready to protest against israel, usa, jews, within short notice in few 100s, with out worring about local indian issues.

    how many has protested for school, but appeasement policy is welcome
    http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-jamia-is-a-minority-institution-it-can-reserve-seats-for-muslims/20110222.htm
    ‘Jamia a minority institution, it can reserve seats for Muslims’
    The varsity will no longer have to give reservation to Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe students following the ruling by the commission, a quasi-judicial body, on the petitions by Jamia Students Union, Jamia Old Boys Association and Jamia Teachers Association filed in 2006, seeking minority status for the varsity.

    ram autar Reply:

    Jamia a minority institution, it can reserve seats for Muslims’

    are muslims not indians.

    ram autar Reply:

    if any hindu organization does these to save hindus

    dawood only smuggled the bomb for that hindu fascists are responsible.after demolition of historical mosque,muslims were being rediculed byb these bstrds.reataliation has to come.
    brhmnst are enemy of nation and.they want voilence to take advantage of situation.

    last time you said muslims did not chase away pundits, but they went on picnic

    hindu were brought to jammu in organized manner by a hindu nazi called jagmohan to save them
    from pain of round the clock curfew.no kashmiri pundit was ever harrased or killed by their neighbour.

    raj Reply:

    @ vinay, some more,
    -islam is religion of peace (without mentioning total submission) and kafirs don’t understand us.

    - there should be more dialouge with other religions (i don’t know what they want to talk about)
    but it should be on their conditions. (don’t talk about koran & allah)

    - we are being sterotyped
    kafirs decide on muslim behavoiur through out world, but then they say muslim is not monolith, but ready to praise islamic countries given any chance.

    ram autar Reply:

    raj,
    islam is message it message for everybody.allah is rabbulalmeen not rabbulmuslimeen.
    it is the same message which has come come earler also through vedas old testament
    and narrated in detailes by great muslim philiosophers,later by west through rennaince.

    ucan talk about koran and allah both.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, islam is message

    islam is total submission without questioning. stop twisting to make it look good.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram, ucan talk about koran and allah both
    — we know hat happed when cartoon were released. & rushdie.

    ram autar Reply:

    we know hat happed when cartoon were released. & rushdie.

    they insulted islam.rushdie has taken 5 million pound to write that stupid book.cartoonist had political agenda,please quote one muslim writer/country which has insulted ,jesus or any other
    or any other messanger in his writings.

    ram autar Reply:

    Indian man has 39 wives, nearly 100 children
    Feb 22, 2011 at 11:29 Views (54305) | | | 178 | | By Reuters
    GUWAHATI, India (Reuters) – The more, the merrier is certainly true for Ziona Chana, a 66-year-old man in India’s remote northeast who has 39 wives, 94 children and 33 grandchildren — and wouldn’t mind having more.

    They all live in a four storied building with 100 rooms in a mountainous village in Mizoram state, sharing borders with Myanmar and Bangladesh, media reports said.

    “I once married 10 women in one year,” he was quoted as saying.

    His wives share a dormitory near Ziona’s private bedroom and locals said he likes to have seven or eight of them by his side at all times.

    The sons and their wives, and all their children, live in different rooms in the same building, but share a common kitchen.

    The wives take turns cooking, while his daughters clean the house and do washing. The men do outdoor jobs like farming and taking care of livestock.

    The family, all 167 of them, consumes around 91 kg (200 pounds) of rice and more than 59 kg (130 pounds) of potatoes a day. They are supported by their own resources and occasional donations from followers.

    “Even today, I am ready to expand my family and willing to go to any extent to marry,” Ziona said.

    “I have so many people to care (for) and look after, and I consider myself a lucky man.”

    Ziona met his oldest wife, who is three years older than he is, when he was 17.

    He heads a local Christian religious sect, called the “Chana,” which allows polygamy. Formed in June 1942, the sect believes it will soon be ruling the world with Christ and has a membership of around 400 families

    raj Reply:

    @vinay , some more.
    — respect to islam is one way street.
    you can read 100 of muslim authors , advising kafirs to respect muslims,
    but they don’t write to other islamic media about what is wrong within inslamic society.
    its always, others to change & accomodate islam & muslims, not the other way.

    ram autar Reply:

    raj give me one example.or the name of writer or accept u come on blog with bad intentions.

    it is not question of accomodation.in religious matters u follow ur i follow mine.in worldly matters we have find best way for both.but in worldly matter u r fkng everybody.muslims or not muslim.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    okay, Zia’s next blog will be on the Godhra judgement- brace yourselves- debators, contributors, anarchists, fundos, rationalists, secularists, pseudo-secularists, sickularists, Pakistanis with hindu names, friends and enemies and those in betweens.

    These comments were written in humour. Any resemblance to living characters on this blog IS intentional.
    Good night folks, till we meet again. Adios, salaam, namashkar.

    raj Reply:

    @mishra , Zia’s next blog will be on the Godhra judgement- brace yourselves-
    — i bet it will NOT be godhra, as muslims cannot be blamed by him.

    1. think it will be – Deobandi School – starting 2 lines will be vastani should not talk like that.
    another 3 para how great it is was. in side lines blame bjp, rss, sangi untis . conclude, how new management will be good for muslims.

    2. or – middle east unrest, there is chance to blame usa, cia, mossad, jews, israel.

  • shan

    @raju kurien your lines
    btw Shoulnt it be “she had no attributes different to BRITISH except for color and accent”???
    Just picking on u

    YOU BET there is a FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTE (if my impression about “arranged marriage” SUSAN was correct. Her husband was the first man to whom she had lost her virginity , saying that about a white british nurse is like saying Bin Laden eats pork .
    Recently there was a news about a fifteen year old girl who had become pregnant, the story was she was not sure what was going on , and when she delivered ,she couldn’t say foe sure who the father was THERE WAS FIVE CONTENDER for the paternity, though she thought most likely it was a 12yr old (what was incredible that kid looked like a 7yr old) however DNA test did locate a different guy probably her age.I AM AWARE INDIA IS CATCHING UP FAST(this was please Ram autar ravi and rizwan)

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ Raju- – “”"”Ok have a good one, drink well.. We (christians and Sikhs) are good at it!”"”"
    Actually raju, maybe christians and sikhs are too good at it. a community of bevdas. lol

    I had posted above, got a response from ramavtar funny-muslim-with-a-hindu-name. Are some guys still angry with me- – -

    @shan, ravi, ramavtar, Tony Blair and anyone else I may have clashed with- these blogs get a bit out of hand sometimes. It is 6 pm here in Hayes and I am off to my pub for a drink. Tomorrow new blog, new debates. I hope no hard feelings- I will try and be very sweet.
    If you ever come this way I will buy you a drink.
    Actually, that offer does exclude Tony Blair (Bush’s poodle henchman- I lay the blame of 7/7 on him) . there I go again– better be off. The patiala peg awaits.
    Once again, no hard feelings , I hope

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Vinay, HOPE THE GEEZER RIZWAN IS READING. Bottom line is if you let religion DICTATE your life , you are not in control of yourself.Religion should be an excuse for FESTIVALS and Allah and spirituality should be the only consideration all other considerations need to be junked.

    [Reply]

  • Rizwan

    Shan, the muslim identity is not a monolith. I am a graduate of DU, we own a small factory in Bhiwadi. Our life is on a different level, something that a resident of backward Calcutta cannot even imagine. (DU is delhi univ).
    I am not answerable for the follies of muslims in UK ghettoes or in small towns in India. Much the same way as you are not responsible for Kandhamal.
    As Mishrajee said, we need a renaissance in our community at grassroot level. Or we need to know that in Kerala, my community is on top as Gopi Sir taught us. I an Indian muslim did not know that

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rizwan , I requested you to type YOUNG BENGAL in wikipedia , doesn’t look like you heeded my advice. Calcutta is indeed has become backward because it has become sort of ISLAMIC , with no freedom , violence , no debate BUT A TOTALITARIANISM OF A SELF RIGHTEOUS IDEOLOGY. As for my educational acheivement , suffice it it say it will take more than few seconds that takes to utter DU , to read all my titles.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @rizwan , i do not consider the acts comitted in kandamal as FOLLIES , I CONSIDER THEM AS VILE ACTS , TOTALLY REPREHENSIBLE , and i hang my head in shame , and i will STICK MY NECK OUT to counter these EVIL MINDS THAT BESMIRCH THE GOOD NAME OF VAST MAJORITY OF HINDUS(including the beef and pork eating , hindu surname bearer person like me)

    [Reply]

  • Manoj

    Hi Zia,

    Why does it need to have an implication on Islam? just because it is in a muslim majority country or that it is an arab world development where normal rules do not apply? I mean its like saying, USA has a black president, what are its implications on Christianity!!

    If anything, look for implications on the Arab political scene…look for a craving for more liberty, personal freedom, expression of individuality, expressions of aspirations….but just because its a Islamic majority country it has to be seen in a different light!! you know what its attitude like this that puts phobia into Islamophobia.

    Really disappointing.

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    Manoj- do not waste your time in this blog if you seriously think of having a debate.It is not the fault of Zia..He always writes on concurrent subjects on which you and me can have a different opinion
    I have yet to see a discourse on the primary subject..Instead this blog is infested with bumptious individuals who extol on their individual merits..and they use this forum as a retreat ..relax and have spice and fun..having said that i do not belittle the contributions of many…off the subject.. so join the club and enjoy!

    [Reply]

  • raj

    The pharaoh’s last sigh; what it means for Islam

    it means nothing for islam, as islam cannot be changed.- koran is no go area.

    islamic society need to grows up, stop blaming others & start fixing their house.
    islamic media gets a back bone & not silenced by their owners.
    islamic authors, should be holding mirror to their society.
    islamic scholars (is zakir nair one ) should stop spreading hatred.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ask these questions with shankaracharya of benaras.who has recently converted to islam.can u tell me one instance where zakir nair has pspreaded htred against any body in islam.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram questions with shankaracharya of benaras.who has recently converted to islam
    — why him, people conver or leave religion, but hinduism doesn’t chase them to kill. let a muslim do that & you know what happens. i know few muslims who are fed up & leave islam, but to avoid being killed they keep the name & play safe.

    — search youtube for zakir naik speech – degrading other religion doesn’t make yours better.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    in pakistan also millions have left islam.these thi.nobody speak.zkir nayek speak truth not degrade others.i hear him sometime.

  • Vinay

    @Raj,
    I have already stated, I don’t know much about Islam. Hence, I can’t take a stand either for or against Islam. As such, we have very less personal interaction with the muslim community. (As I previously said, the educated minority among this minority group may point to about 2-3% of the total Indian population). One boy in the class, one colleague in office and maximum one family in a street. This has led us to conclude what Islam is, based on acts of Muslim community as reported by papers.
    As the saying goes “Tell me who your friends are, I will tell you who you are”, Islam is judged by its followers. If a title like “The pharaoh’s last sigh; what it means for Islam” gets published, we tend to believe Islam was born to rule. (I am totally in sync with Manoj). We don’t know whether the future Egyptian government wants to bring Sharia laws or a separate constitution. If they bring their own constitution, why should that affect Islam? Religious people would still pray. It is the country, which is undergoing regime change, not Islam. If people don’t like Islam to be coupled with violence, first they should decouple it from politics (in their mind, in their writing).

    @Singh
    Can’t consider Dawood as a believer (He is not Aurangzeb, instead very materialistic). I don’t know, what impact Islam has on him. But he is the product of fearlessness and negative attitude, which is abundant in poor Muslim community.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    vinay dawood is smugller.hindus too have hundreds like him.why u attach his faith with his deeds.

    vinay,u have accepted that u dont know much about islam.there are 71 muslim majority countries
    .none have sharia.why egypt or anyother country will go after sharia.all muslim countries run by reason not religion.that is why indians wants to stay there and die to go there.
    palin and bush talked about bibilical prophies while mascaring the muslims of iraq and afghanistan.sharia will not come as there are many sects among muslims.and u are worried.
    for every bad muslim there are 100s available in india.
    trey to reform urslf instead of teaching others.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    vinay since the inception of islam,muslims and islam have 2 different ways.both have seen ups and downs.their kilings and destructions like now.tartar army headed by changezkhan killed crores of muslims.but later they converted to islam.i heard many state department heads in america also converted.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ram Autar
    Read my reply again. I did not attach faith to Dawood deeds. I replied to a comment, which stated “Dawood becomes a darling of the believers”. I said, he has a fearless attitude and negativity and I don’t consider him as a believer (of Islam).

    “trey to reform urslf instead of teaching others.”
    Cool, you have got carried away so emotionally that you have lost control of what you are typing. I don’t consider I am perfect and I do try to learn from others, including people in this blog. So don’t worry about that.
    Whenever you have taken potshots at Hinduism, like the dirty origin of our Rishis, I have tried to defend it without taking any digs at Islam. But I never asked you to reform yourself. I am what I am. You are what you are. That’s it.
    But let me tell you, the more people take digs at Hinduism, invariably they polarise Hindu’s opinion on Islam/Muslims (whether they are responsible for these digs are not). This blog has always witnessed hot exchanges. But it has never been this polarised before you and Ravi started to attack Hindus regarding Jains, Devdasi system etc. Shan always had a problem with his language, but his opinions were not anti-Islamic. He was more anti-Brahmin and anti-BJP and has clashed several times with BJP supporters earlier. I have just been a spectator in this mud smuggling match and I will continue to do so. But you need to realise, your writings do not help your community. They in turn breed hate culture in Hindus which marginalise Muslim community further. Khuda Hafiz or Allah Hafiz, whatever.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    “whether they are responsible for these digs are not”

    I meant, even though Islam or Muslim community in general are not responsible for the statements hurled at Hinduism, still they become the retaliation targets. Hence, one needs to have more responsibility.

  • Binoy Hegde

    Deobandi School’s new chief Vastanvi’s fate will be decided by a bunch of backward looking, India be damned, mullahs next week. Vastanvi has started successful professional colleges in gujrat and elsewhere for Muslims to be religious while integrating with the community at large. He has demonstrably accomplished what mainstream Muslism want – education, empowerment, employment, integration.

    The pundits say he will lose in the meeting and will be replaced by one who wants to keep the curriculum the way it is, not bringing professional progarms, and not worrying about the future of these boys.

    Can Indian Muslims do an Egypt on the Deobandi clerics?

    None of the fru…..autars and Ravis should not even bother about writing about how glorious was their land in this blog if their Mullahs cease eovban school away from Vasnavi.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Dr Misra, hehe- lovely lines- “”"”"okay, Zia’s next blog will be on the Godhra judgement- brace yourselves- debators, contributors, anarchists, fundos, rationalists, secularists, pseudo-secularists, sickularists, Pakistanis with hindu names, friends and enemies and those in betweens.

    These comments were written in humour. Any resemblance to living characters on this blog IS intentional.”"”"”"–RIGHT SO DOC SAHEB, WHICH OF THE ABOVE DESCRIBES ME

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, you saw the response of that geezer rizwan “We muslims will defend” . So what can you expect , vatsanvi should have known better.The point is THERE IS NO COUNTER ARGUMENT, there is no Martin Luther , for that matter Swami Vivekananda who exhorted young boys NOT TO SIT AT HOME AT PRAY , BUT GO OUT AND PLAY FOOTBALL AS THIS WILLBE GOOD FOR YOUR BODY AND MIND. and you have followed my quote from the biography of Marlowe. Unless there is an upheavel in islamic world , FOR FREEDOM for THE RIGHT TO ABUSE ISLAM ,as voltaire said I will defend your right to be wrong.So for the moment nothing happens .
    ON A SEPARATE NOTE a far more SINISTER NEWS Srilanka is asking ICC to allow srilanka cricket team to play cricket in PAKISTAN .As they say “this aint cricket , THIS IS FAR MORE SINISTER , PAKISTAN MEANS CHINA”

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    shan, what r u talking abt. see this-
    Ashish Reply:February 24th, 2011 at 3:02 pm @Rizwan,
    That I will speak out on all issues, like any Agarwal, Sharma, Singh or Rao, like any Indian
    Bravo! Yes, spoken like a true Indian. Thank you; came here after ages.. and saw your comment which essentially made my day.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Yes, that sentence of Rizwan was lovely.

    shan Reply:

    @sandhu , we know the above character showering accolades on rizwan , this is the mesage i posted in response to his
    shan Reply:
    February 24th, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    THE CAESAR HAS RETURNED AFTER HIS CAMPAIGN IN CHINA.lol shan

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Balwinder Sandhu,
    You have a name that is immortalized in cricket folklore- you are not THAT Balwinder Sandhu by any chance, who bowled that perfect inswinger to Greenidge in the WC 1975 finals?

    ram autar Reply:

    Deobandi School’s new chief Vastanvi’s fate will be decided by a bunch of backward looking,

    why u are not able to sleep.

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra

    Sandhu paji or should I say paaaji
    You are one part anarchist, one part secular, one part alcoholic- the fourth part the others can fill in.
    In polite language.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    The fourth part is Pappi, that is driving mercedes preferably KOMPRESSOR (no other brand will do ,doesn’t matter how old it is) TV got to be 70 inch (even if that means importing) curtain gaudy GOLD colour with gold brocade , rolex watch , and when buying a picture to hang in the house ROTHKO definitely out of question ,any painting will do SO LONG IT IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE with GOLD FRAME

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    A Gift that goes on giving!

    US Muslim Terrorism Breaking news – A 20 yr old Saudi Muslim student is arrested for planning bombing on dams, military officers quarters, and ex president Bush..

    He seems to be a ring leader of other Muslim boys from Saudi and other countries whoa re here on student visa.

    For fru…..radical Islamists, it is always in some other country; and not in their own country. Fr— princes continue to live happily in KSA

    [Reply]

  • Dr D Mishra

    Binoy, just to be devil’s advocate, what percentage of these arrests turn out to be false.
    In India the percentage may be ???? 50%, in UK it is 25 %??
    What is the figure in US?
    In Forest Gate, London, 5 years ago, police actually stormed a house at 3 am, shot one guy in the arm and arrested both him and his brother. 1 week later, admitted that they got their info wrong.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I would say it is only 10% or so that turns out to be false (except the mother of the false evidence, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq). At least most/all of the terrorism cases that were announced by FBI went through full prosecution and the parties did get punished.

    Some of the recent cases – the aborted Manhattan bombing by the Pakistani Vice Admiral’s son (hardly a poor disadvantaged boy!), the “denver” connection, Virginia and Maryland arrests etc were all prosecuted. And then there was the case of the Pakistani scientist Dr Aifa going to Kabul on “vacation”. and shooting several US military men Then there was the Christmas tree bomber in Oregon.

    Obviously, in some of these cases, like the “denver” connection, no physical act was done. Police filed the case based on thecomputer and other records. Similarly, in the case announced today, they confiscated computer records, photographs etc; So the court argument will be about intented action vs real action.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr shan dr siddiqui is 46 kilo woman she has no physical power to lift even gun how she can fire on 4 marines.she was kidnapped from pakistan on report of her ex-husband with 2 of her sons.one is still missing other was found by chance.she is phd from mit.under american custody she interrogated after removing all her clothes.she was tortured insulted and humiliated to maximum.

    now one cia agent is caught in pakistan(for killing 2 isi men following him).he was managing and directing bomb blasts in pakistan
    like isreal based col,purohit in india.

    zhoot kee tahni kabhi phalti nahin
    naav qagaz kee kabhi chalti nahin.

    by magnifying minor things,idea is to keep atmosphere hot.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ram Autar, Laykin hoga kya, Amrika ka b u m lick karne wala pakistan kya kar sakta hai, kuch nahi, I will be surprised if Dr Siddiqui is exchanged for Raymond Davis. Most likely Davis will be sentenced in pakistan , then handed over to amrika to serve his sentence in amrika.
    Once in amrika, Davis will get presidential medal of honour. WOULD BINOY HEGDE THROW SOME LIGHT HOW IT IS BEING PLAYED OUT IN USA

    ram autar Reply:

    shan bhai,mere up mein kahawat hai,NANG BADE KEE PARMESHWAR.YAANI,gundaa bara ki bhabhwan.with time they will leave davis without any deal.

    shan Reply:

    Well they may have got it wrong SORT OF in forest gate.This is a case of two bangladeshi guys who “INFORMERS” noticed suddenly started growing beards , shaved heads massive increase in mosque traffic , so they were not exactly preparing themselves to study Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America”. Okay the lead about chemical bombs being assembled turned out to be false , THE POLICE DID PUT THE FAMILY UP IN A FIFE STAR HOTEL(LONDON HILTON) till there house was put back to its original state. A SEARCH INTO THEIR COMPUTER FOUND JIHADI MATERIAL AS WELL AS PAGE AFTER PAGE OF HARD CORE PORN.

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    shan there is 5th angel.is his prayer,

    hey rabba subse wadda tuuuuuu
    yeh duniya terey chooon
    chooon witch jo hai jooon
    balwinder singh hai tuuun.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    A SEARCH INTO THEIR COMPUTER FOUND JIHADI MATERIAL AS WELL AS PAGE AFTER PAGE OF HARD CORE PORN isee ko kah sakte hai bhagwan aur shaitan ka mixture.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    ram, reg Dr aafia, one must not blindly support all muslims. she was deranged with her fanaticism. divorces her first husband and marries nephew of 911 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohd. Gives up a lucrative career in US , returns to Pak and then treks off to Afghan.
    When arrested, snatches a rifle that was lying unattended and tries to shoot her interrogator. Final prrof of her guilt, google – Express Tribune Pakistan, then Aafia spoke- disturbing article by a pak journalist who attended her hearings in US. when she spoke, she came across as deranged, rambling , brainwashed.
    Rambhai, be unbiased, do not defend the indefensible. Aafia just does not pitch up in Afghn, does not just marry Khalid’s nephew etc

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Dr Aaifa went on vacation to war-ravaged Afghanistan!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    She is not the only one ALL THOSE IN GUANTAMO BAY their constant refrain , THEY ALL WENT FOR SOCIAL WORK IN AFGANISTAN WITH AK 47

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    she was not caught in afghanistan.many of them with medical background have gone there` there to help the victims of american bombing.there was no afghan in sept 11 plane why americans have gone there.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    frucking ram —- she is not a medical doctor — she is a doctor of weapons science

    ram autar Reply:

    mishrajee i am not supporting her because of her beiing muslim.yes i may have more sympathy.but story don not go like this.
    iraq war was opposed more by christian than muslims.there was no demonstration on streets of muslim countries while in europe and america ,it was daily affair.all most everymuslim of world is cursing ghaddafi and opposing him.
    u have seen their honesty in last iraq war.collin poweel fabricated papers from nigeria regarding import of nuclear material from sddam,which nu representative threw saying it is fraud.wmd was fraud.750 top intellectuals of america issued statement that9/11 WAS INSIDE JOB.ANY STUPID MAN CAN SEE THIS.WHERE IS PLANE AND DEAD BODIES OF PASSERGER WHEN FIRE FIGHTERS REACHE ON SITE WITH IN MINUTES.
    come afia ,2 american doctors hve certified that she is mentally un balance.hence cannot be sent to jail.
    she married nephew of khalid after divorce from first husband.she was caught by isi american cia while she was travelling with his childern from karachi to islamad.5 years she was being transferred from one secret jail to others.and was continously raped and tortured.

    after 5 year one american jounralist boston gobal noted the continous cries of a lady from prison cell at bagram airport.she published this story then human right group foud her there and she was offially arrested.

    Many of Siddiqui’s supporters, including international human rights organizations, have claimed that Siddiqui was not an extremist and that she and her young children were illegally detained, interrogated and tortured by Pakistani intelligence or U.S. authorities or both during her five-year disappearance.[5] The U.S. and Pakistan governments have denied all such claims.
    what u wrote is american version of events.[

    Siddiqui related a different version of events, according to Pakistani senators who later visited her in jail. She denied touching a gun, shouting, or threatening anyone. She said she stood up to see who was on the other side of the curtain, and that after one of the startled soldiers shouted "She is loose", she was shot. On regaining consciousness, she said someone said "We could lose our jobs."[27]
    Some of the Afghan police offered a third version of the events, telling Reuters that U.S. troops had demanded that she be handed over, disarmed the Afghans when they refused, and then shot Siddiqui mistakenly thinking she was a suicide bomber.[93]
    Siddiqui was taken to Bagram Air Base by helicopter in critical condition. When she arrived at the hospital she was rated at 3 on the Glasgow Coma Scale, but she underwent emergency surgery without complication. She was hospitalized at the Craig Theater Joint Hospital, and recovered over the next two weeks.[27][33] Once she was in a stable condition, the Afghan government allowed the Americans to transport her to the United States for trial. The day after landing, Siddiqui was arraigned in a Manhattan courtroom on charges of attempted murder. Her three-person defense team was hired by the Pakistani embassy to supplement her two existing public defenders, but Siddiqui refused to cooperate with them.
    she lost her 2 sons during custody.she was a neuroscientist.marrying nephew of a terrorist is not crime.
    she was a devout muslim ,this too is not crime.during her interrogation she was forced to be naked in front of 30-40 people.

    it is not question of hindu muslim ,christian world haas lot of support and sympathy for her.

    ram autar Reply:

    frucking ram —- she is not a medical doctor — she is a doctor of weapons science

    binoy bhai u could say this without abusing me as well.SHE WAS NEUROSCIENTIST,nothing to
    do with weapon science.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan this is true that hundreds of medics gone to afghanistan to help the victims of horrific bombings of nato forces.many of them ended in guantanamo bay prison.

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ram, there is nothing wrong in being a Muslim, being sympathetic to genuine Muslim causes…but if you are taking Dr Aiffa’s case, you are barking on the wrong tree. The woman divorced her husband, left her children, joined jehadi movement (marrtying Khalid Sheikh’s nephew in itself does not qualify her as a jehadist; but her total disappareance for four years and then suddenly springing up in Kabul (yes, she went there for vacation, my f–t!) shoots an FBI guy . And her court admissions that she will do mjehad for Allah and all those crasp….

    Listen, I told you many times, do not call me bhai..I am not your Bhai. Your constant denigrading of Hindus, brahmins, Jews, Christians, westerners, Americans etc make me puke, you, lover of humanity. For you, humanity means Musllims, that too only certain Muslims

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy most of the time u speak bullshit.rubbish and wrong and speak lies to press ur point l,ike afia was doctor in weapon science.u consider ur self as the owner of india not its subject.
    6 top christian human right organizations have confirmed that she is not extremist or terrrorist.

    we call our enemy also as brother.she did not deserve 86 yrs jail after suffering so much.especially she is mentally sick and has 2 children.

    u look to be more american less asian.

    agreziat zyada hai aur insaniyat kum.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    mishrajee, thank you, your research is meticulous. Ram, you should read this article by a SENIOR PAK journalist writing in one of Pak’s most respected newspapers.
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/57666/then-spoke-aafia/
    THEN SPOKE AAFIA- AZIZ AKHMAD

    ” Before Aafia Siddiqui spoke, her lawyer argued that Aafia Siddiqui was not mentally stable…. That she needed professional care and compassion …
    ….Aafia declared at the outset that she was not tortured or mistreated in jail (in Texas). She said if you hear people saying otherwise don’t believe them. She also thanked the soldiers who, she said, did not harm or mistreated her daughter in captivity (in Afghanistan?)…… but then she said something about dreams she had been seeing.
    She said she saw the Prophet in a dream. The Prophet, (pbuh) she said, came to a room full of American soldiers who were standing with their hands behind their backs; he went from one room to another, all full of soldiers. She said the Prophet (pbuh) then turned to her and said: all these soldiers are innocent and I forgive them. At another point she said, she also saw Jesus in a dream. Frankly, at this point I began to wonder about her state of mind.”
    ———-Binoy and ram, all of us are Indians . pl be polite to each other. Ram, benoy and mishrajee do have a point- do not be blind to the fault of muslims (many) and be honest about strengths of hindus, sikhs, jews and christians (many)

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    ram autar Reply:

    Aafia is not an American citizen. Her trial in a US court was not legal. The crime was allegedly committed in Afghanistan and she was not extradited to the US through any legal process.

    again she did not kill anybody actually she was shot.she has not divorced her husband.she has 4 children from him.he divorced her.

    In August 2010 Yvonne Ridley reported that she had acquired a three-paragraph statement taken from Ahmed by a U.S. officer before he was released from U.S. custody.[Ahmed described Aafia driving a vehicle taking the family from Karachi to Islamabad, when it was overtaken by several vehicles, and he and his mother were taken into custody. He described the bloody body of his baby brother being left on the side of the road. He said that he had been too afraid to ask his interrogators who they were, but that they included both Pakistanis and Americans. He described beatings when he was in U.S. custody. Eventually, he said, he was sent to a conventional childrens' prison in Pakistan.

    His statement does not describe how he and his mother came to be in Ghazni in 2008.[84]

    treatment she is talking is in texas jail.
    but a woman who has not killed anybody is given 86 yrs jail.why.u cannot sent to jail for so long even if u have bad intentions.

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    ram autar Reply:

    Ram, benoy and mishrajee do have point

    i fully agree with u but benoy is sometime very emotional.what i narrated is story from begining.and american attitudes towards their assumed enemy.

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  • RajX

    Calling Mubarak(a Muslim) a pharaoh( who are not Muslims) is not appropriate. Maybe he should be called a caliph or something of that sort identifiable with Muslims since he is a Muslim dictator.

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  • charu

    prateek is the best actor.he dont need any name.he is a superstar for us.we luv u prateek.dont listen wat oters are speaking.we luv you.

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  • varsha

    smita patil was a superstar and so is prateek.he dont need babbar name for becoming a star.prateek is just excellent.

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  • sailah

    I love prateik.he so innocent.god bless him n gve him success ameen.xx

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