Modi: Goodwill hunting, but should he get it?



Nations can sometimes be found grappling with an odd political dilemma: should controversial leaders be praised when they get things right?

Narendra Modi, the chief minister of Gujarat, is doggedly turning his state around. Industrialists fawn over his business-friendly manner. Foreign investments come chasing him. Mukesh Ambani, a fellow Gujarati industrialist counted as one of the world’s richest, almost has a man crush on him.

Elsewhere, investors still run into bureaucratic walls, but they are instantly cleared in Gujarat.

Ratan Tata, the head of Tata Sons – India’s second-biggest conglomerate that earns nearly 65% of its revenues from business abroad — loves to recall how he was offered a manufacturing place for the world’s cheapest car in just three days, after being driven out from Communist-ruled West Bengal.

Gujarat makes up for 5% of India’s population, but accounts for 16% of its industrial production, 22% of exports, has a literacy rate of 79.8% and is growing at 11% (above the national GDP of 8%). It produces more power than it needs and in 2009, contracted FDI worth US $ 243bn by signing over 800 MoUs.

Gujarat is moving fast on socio-economic indicators, although they are not the best in class. In India, good teachers are a scarce national resource. So, from children in village primary schools to would-be doctors in medical colleges, students in Gujarat are taught extensively using satellite-based EDUSAT modules. Now, Modi has grander projects. He has offered a location for India’s first geospatial technology park.

Few states can think of matching these benchmarks. Europe and the US, which still consider him a diplomatic pariah, are rethinking on doing business with him.

Today’s Gujarat serendipitously matches up against Germany of the Forties.

In 1929, stung by an economic depression, America rolled back its foreign loans, which ruined Weimar Germany. Its unemployment rose to 6 million. The government was helpless; the economy lay in tatters and middle-class Germans frustrated. This helped the Nazis to come to power.

Germans who suffered a great deal during the First World War and the Depression welcomed Hitler’s rejuvenating economic policies. Jobs were back. By 1939, unemployment in Germany was nearly wiped out. Public works were efficiently organised. Industrialists backed Hitler with money and investment.

A scheme was devised to allow workers to buy a Volkswagen Beetle for small weekly installments. Ordinary Germans could now buy a car and drive one on gleaming autobahns, much like the road from Ahmedabad to Surat.

The Nazis set up the SdA (Beauty of Work) to help Germans see dignity in work. They abolished trade unions and gave more power to the industrialists. Then came the Autarky — an attempt, though unsuccessful — to make Germany self-reliant.

There was also the KdF (Strength through Joy), which rewarded good workers with entertainment facilities and free holidays. There were so many good things about life in Nazi Germany. In a nutshell, Germany was strong and successful, much like our Gujarat.

Does history allow praise for Hitler for all that he achieved during his demagogic rule? It doesn’t, due to Hitler’s devilish extermination of millions of innocent Jews.

Modi’s fate is somewhat similar. US still hasn’t lifted a travel ban on him. “Do we want Indian demagogue in Canada?” said the Toronto Star recently, following an invitation sent to Modi to visit the country.

Despite his achievements, Modi’s troubled past ensures he remains a polarizing figure. In late January, Maulana Vastanvi, the current head of Darul Uloom, the seat of Sunni Islam in India, suggested that Muslims were benefiting from the state’s progress. That sent Muslims, who saw the remarks as endorsing Modi, gunning for the cleric’s scalp.

Nine years ago, in his state, Hindu-Muslim riots claimed more than 1,000 lives, three-quarters of them Muslims, dying at the hands of Hindu mobs. Modi has been accused of not preventing the killing of Muslims deliberately.

A team appointed by the Supreme Court to investigate charges against him has indicted him for trying to “water down” the seriousness of the killings and even justifying them, according to leaked media reports. The team however is said to have concluded that there is not enough evidence to try Modi.

Modi, however, is not doomed like Hitler. He has the option of reaching out to Muslims in a more obvious way. We have heard praises for Modi from Muslims, but haven’t yet heard Modi even remotely regret the killings of 2002. The onus of moving on should not lie on Muslims alone.

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  • Ravi

    Comparing Narendra Modi with Nazi Germany is the correct thing to do.

    Economic growth is admirable, howere man does not live on bread alone.

    If Gujarat was measured against the criteria of a – A happy plural society – then I am sure it will be found wanting.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The Hindu Right of which Narendra Modi is a standard-bearer believe:

    1. Purity of Aryan Blood and Volksgeist.
    2. They find Italian and German Fascist ideas appealing.
    3. That Hindus for centuries have been emasculated and humiliated.
    4. This needs to be cleansed and avenged, even if it takes riots and demolitions.
    5. Modi presided over mass killings and rape of innocent muslims.

    I could go on, but life is too short.

    [Reply]

    jay Reply:

    Hindus don’t want revenge from anyone, son….

    All we want to do is uplift the poverty…..and to have a say in our own country, where we are still second class citizens……as the country even today is run by a forigner.

    jai hind.

    Btw…..Ravi…you don’t have to hide behind a hindu name, you can put your true name here….i’m sure it’s beautiful…no matter who you are.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Jay

    Thanks for calling me your son, you would’t if you knew me.

    I am not hiding.

    Why should I hide, what would you do if you knew my true identity. Attack me. Ha ha ha.

    I am a Liberal Hindu, and you are a stupid man, who thinks that any one, who is critical of Hinduism, must be a Mulsim. For you life must be very simple.

    Hinduism is more than 6000 years old, so is poverty, so when do you think this noble task of eradicating poverty will be completed. What is being done about it?

    How do you think that those who by virtue of their low caste are in a poverty trap – put their by Upper Caste Hindus – get out of this poverty.

    That foreigner is more of an Indian than you ever will be dad. In the last election, everyone in India knew about the Italian origins of Sonia Gandhi, yet they voted for her in droves.

    You are one sad looser. Dad

    Ravi is my real name and I am a Liberal Hindu. However, you can imagine what ever shite that suits your inherent prejudices.

    Simba Reply:

    Ravi, Who knows whether you are using a Hindu name but representing hardline Muslims. Since we have people like you and this writer India cannot progress.

    Ram Reply:

    Ravi, you are quick to point out the agenda of the Hindu (right as per you). How about the agenda of the muslim right? You call yourself a liberal hindu, but are completely silent about what happened to our Sikh brothers in 1984 and what happened to the kar sevaks just before the Gujarat issue. Why are/were Rajiv Gandhi and congress allowed to get away with such a heinous crime. I am amazed at the double standards here, it is securalism when standing up for muslims but do nothing for victims of hate crimes in other cases. Justice is for one and all. This kind of selective justice is of no use.

    Bhavesh Reply:

    Hey Ravi,

    Poor exist in all caste whether it is brahmin or others. May be some of ur point is true but your have very poor logic to judge anything. Killing any one is “gunah” in all religion. Better you just improve your knowledge.

    Thanks

    Tejas Reply:

    Ravi,
    I can not believe that you are a Hindu. I can imagine a liberal Hindu criticising Modi but can not imagine trying to prove that Muslim Brotherhood is better than RSS. The so called saffron terrorism might be a reality but not as widespread as the so called green terrorism and the only way to stop safron is to stop green. And even if you are a “liberal”, you guys have no credibility because you are squarely one sided. So much so that you are more anti Hindu and anti India then liberal.

    s.asim Reply:

    Dear Mr.Ravi,
    A liberal Hindu can do introspection but should not indulge in self-destruction. You read the history of India, we were subjugated by the Muslims and British basically because by the so-called liberal Hindus-Jaychand, Rai Durlav etc. History has not taught any lesson.From yr. note it seems that there was no destruction of temples prior to Babri demolition or there was no riots before Gujarat riot. Pl. read the riots of Noakhali,Direct Action Day,( don’t read any Hindu’s books, read Will Durant that will be enough) and so many more, also the history of temples destruction which continues unabated even today, see the Kali temple of Ramna (Dacca) has been converted into a public toilet if yr. blood does not boil you are really cold blooded.
    I can’t blame the Muslims, it is people like you and the Media who are not allowing a healing touch, to proceed forward.
    s.asim

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Ravi,

    Just as Indians have voted for the foreigner in droves, Gujaratis too have voted for Modi in droves twice and in the recent local body elections, Muslims too ahve voted for Modi in droves. If this doesn’t prove that Modi takes care of all Gujaratis irrespective of their religion, so does Sonia Gandhi remain a foreigner.

    By the way, do you think Ram Aautar is a Hindu?

    farid Reply:

    @s asim
    –have you seen RAMNA KALI MANDIR?
    —your wrote it out of hatred or anger.
    –not based on facts.
    – I had been there many times.
    –pl.go to the place then write about —-findings.
    – propagation of hatred –based on wrong ideas/facts–helps none.

    ram autar Reply:

    rape murder and` killings of muslims was goining on from 1969.69 mascare was no less to 2002.but indira ,being wife of a muslim(feroze)was afraid to catch the culprits,due to safety of her sons.
    rss snake very smooth skin.snake with smooth skin usually has more poison.

    [Reply]

    Hamid Reply:

    Bewakuf Feroz Gandhi is never muslim, he is a parsi.

    ram autar Reply:

    ghandhi made him parsi.he was from khan family of gujrat.ghandhi dont exist in allhabad.ghandhi was brought from south africa by brhmns to divide country between hindu and
    muslim.and finish reforms in indian society started by britishers.so instead of singing something great for india.he started singing ISHWAR ALLAH TERE NAM.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    This is in response to ram autar.

    Get your facts right. To be a Parsi, one must have a Parsi father. Children of a Parsi woman and a non-Parsi man are not admitted to the Zoroastrian faith. There is no such thing as conversion to the faith.

    However, even if the contention (false anyway) that Feroze Gandhi was original a Muslim, so what? Is it a crime?

    Gaurav MAlik Reply:

    Plzzzz check history, he was not parsi….., He is muslim, son of vegetable seeler of gujarat. This was hide from people of india so that she can be PM. this is bbludyyyyy politics.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Gaurav

    Which history? The distorted history by the RSS, which has been spreading falsehoods, lies and untruths?

    Bhavesh Reply:

    Haaaaaaaaa sick man

    Amit Reply:

    I agree, ur life and people of ur likes will have it too short……life and brain both

    [Reply]

    jay Reply:

    a typical Gujurati, Hindu or Muslim is alot happier and more secure then you are Ravi….

    jai hind.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ravi ,mother of hitler was jew so he was jew.lie that hitler killed was fabricated to create israel.truth should not be afraid of investigation.why many german professors are in jail for challenging this lie.
    hitler iwith the help of media harrased the jew ,so that they migrate to israel.he started wars so that christian kill christian and west become weak and take money from their banks at higher interest rates.
    exactly same rss`bania nexus is doing with india and hindus.weaknes of original indian is their succes.
    zoinists created rss muslim brotherhood and wahabism nd many many other evangical cults`in america to finish islam judaism,christianity and pagaism.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    modi shudra hai aur nagpur ke blood thirsty brhmns ka bandar hai.aur kutch nahin hai.

    [Reply]

    Jai Reply:

    Modi, irrespective of his caste is a hero.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Looking at the deeds of Modi and Mohammad, one can say modi is 1000% better than Mohammad.
    Atleast he did not kill anybody or rape like Mohammad.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rajeev

    Lerts not drag Mohamed into this. First, theyw ill kill you for creating a comparison. But more importantly, many consider Him prophet, and we should not question that question…

    Modi acn stand on hsi own without Mohamed support.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I agree. It is insult to Modi.

    ram autar Reply:

    rss is brhmnst fascist party which is anti-indian by nature.hates evry indian except brhmn of his gang.
    modi is shudra ,he is bandar (monkey)of blood thirsty brhmns of nagpur.now they are after his neck also.like ghandhi.
    till every member of this fascist murderous gang is not thrown in arabian sea india cannot progress.they are hiding in every party.

    rss(rumour spreading society)is not party it is gang of muderers,homosexuals(savarkar was)gangesters,financial thieves ,wife swappers,infant burners,scam operators hawala dealers,bomb planter(terrorist golwalkar was caught in meerut in 1930 with bomb making material).it is these bstrds who have siphoned 280lac crores of indian poors to swiss banks.one bhoodevta is caught stealing 12 crores per month in mp.kharabs are being hidden in temple in temples and so called ashrams.
    brhmnsm is being marketed as hinduism.brhmns are not hindus.they are enemy no.1 of hindus.blood suckers of common indian.SHOULD BE SENT BACK TO THEIR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OR 2%OF
    INDIAN desert COULD BE ALLOTED TO THEM.because of them 47%of our ladies are enemic.

    regarding gujrat,ahmadabd was built in 16th century by sultan ahmad shan,had population of 1 million was most beautiful city of world.all races and religions were living like brothers.surat was moghul trading city ,always looted by shivajee,whenever in need of money.
    gujrat was no1 from long time.gujjus are good in farting and bussines.

    regarding modi,his closest minister is caught in money extracting bussines with the help of state police.amit shah and all his gang is in sabarmati jail.brhmncl media cracy is saving him.
    LEKIN BAKRE KEE MAAN KAB TAK KHAIR MANAI GEE.

    THERE WAS REPORT IN PAPERS THAT ALMOST EVERY WOMEN OF AHMADABAD GET HERSELF PREOSTITUTED FOR 2 MEALS ADAY ,due to inflation.that too in knowledge of huband.

    Indian_Abroad Reply:

    Ravi,

    People like you who have not seen the reality in Gujarat fall pray this diry journalism.

    [Reply]

    Paul Reply:

    India knows how to degrade her Heroes. Modi is a hero. He is fit to be Prime Minister of India.
    India has no use for selfless workers and Modi is one. India loves it’s corrupt beaurocrats. What a
    Shame. Ravi you are one those corrupt worshippers.

    [Reply]

    Dorothy Reply:

    With every passing day, journalists in this country are losing credibility. In China, prostitutes seem to command more credibility than bureaucrats!

    In India we’ll have something similar, where journalists would be at the bottom of the dung heap! Delhi based journalists like this one would be responsible for such a situation!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Paul

    I understand you are a FAN.

    Good for you, but understand that others do not agree with you.

    [Reply]

    Rajinder Reply:

    Comparing Modi with Hitler is warped Congress thinking. Under Modi, Gujarat is riot free for years on end except for one riot as compared to earlier Congress regimes in Gujarat of one riot every quarter. Compare this with UPA/Congress rule. Anti-Sikh riots, ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from Kashmir and scams galore. UPA/Congress have achieved in Kashmir what Hitler could not do in Germany. Ethnic cleansing of a race. No tears are shed for the thousands of Hindus and Sikhs murdered by UPA/Congress encouraged organisations all over India through bombings etc.

    [Reply]

    Meverik Reply:

    Comparing Modi with Hitler is absolutely rubbish. Dont get carried away with the flow of article. Modi needs no praise; he is doing good for his state and the results are there to see. Gujarat has achieved a lot and i am sure US will come back to Gujarat. They banned India after nuclear tests but they could not do without us. Gujarat is reality of last decade and a challenge for other states in india.

    [Reply]

    Piyush Reply:

    It is apparent you form your opinions like the Mr. Haq here with selective recall of historical facts without bothering to infer anything out of it. Let me not go over Hitler since he’s only being used as an analogy. Btw “onus not only lies with Muslims”? Are you ready to believe if the SIT says there is not enough evidence linking Modi directly to the riots or the killing. I dont get you lot, it is ok for you guys to label Mr. Manmohan ( prime minister) as victim of his own cabinet, there is not a single article on the Sikh riots ?( 2500 – 3000 died) in Delhi ( Nation’s capital) in killings ordered by the ruling party and washed down by then prime minister Rajiv Gandhi! Very conveniently you forget key congress figures that provoked the mob and there was almost like media boycott from your paper and other news channels when the psuedo investigations were conducted by the CBI… It seems you lack the maturity to look in totality… I would rather go for Modi who has saved more lives by raising the basic standards of living in his state… BTW no farmer suicides were reported from Gujarat during the drought ( guess why), around 2000+ have committed suicide in Maharashtra alone but i guess since they dont belong to your religion you dont bother writing or because they’re deaths are not as provoking as the ones in riots!!!

    [Reply]

    Sumter Reply:

    Mohdi Is a Hitler of Gujarat so that reason USA government had no entry to USA.

    [Reply]

    Piyush Reply:

    Dear Ravi,
    Please go ahead and do the survey that you are recommending. I am sure you will be surprised by the results.

    Piyush

    [Reply]

    singh Reply:

    So shall we compare all Congress people and especially Mr. Rajiv Gandhi & Indira Gandhi with Hitler as well, since they led to killing of more than 25000 Sikhs in Capital of India (DELHI) ! Atleast Modi has some development and has done good after that as well but these corrupt congressi are good for nothing.
    It will be bad luck of India if Modi doesn’t become PM one day as only 1 or 2 people like him has vision to make India Superpower else with current politicians we will be superpower only on PAPER !

    [Reply]

    Simba Reply:

    Dear Zia Haq, How come Muslims have so far not apologised to Hindus for what their forefather did to Hindus during Mogal Empire? Millions were killed and Hindu women were raped indecriminately. I recently found out that Australian and Canadian have apologised to their indeginious community for what their forefather did to them. I feel in this way trust will be built among these two community. Let us have an apology day when all section of Muslims should come out together and tender an apology to Hindus. By doing so we can wipe out the cruel history of Mogal Empire from our education books.
    Can you take up this suggestion with your community?

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    It is not for Zia or anybody to pass a judgment on Modi, whether he should get goodwill or not. It is the people of Gujrat, which he won with big plurality;a nd should eh contest at an all Indoa level, the peopel of India.

    Indians cannot be fooled by fabricated stories; what they see is the reality on the ground. Why is my state not progressing? How come we do not ahve roads and colleges? How come we do not have peace?

    What ever the distractors say, the fact is that Gujrat is more vibrant, more inclusive, more honest , less corrupt state in India today. It will rank the lowest in corriuption, the highest in efficincy. It will rank the highest in terms of projects completed. It will rank the highest in terms of net inflow of people looking for jobs and that includes Muslims. Muslims will liek gujrat today better than West Bengal.

    India will be betetr off with a Narendra Modi as the Prime Minister. I hope and pray it happens.

    That he is not for pluralism and want to drive all other than Hindus is a hogwash..He understands what india is about; he understands how to alleviate the poverty, how to bring people up. No other plotician in India gets the love and respevct Modi gets – name one, please… Karunannidhi, Mayawati, Budhdev, Chavan, …..

    The pundits as usual know more than the people..They predicted huge vuolence after the court verdict on Ayodhya. They predicted huge win for Rahul in Bihar.The list goes on.. Gujratt’s people will throw him away if he is not performing; not Zia or his elkes.

    That the congress party has only five states is a telling testimony to what people think..

    [Reply]

    jay Reply:

    NARENDRA MODIJI IS THE FUTURE OF INDIA…..HE WILL MAKE IT TO THE TOP….HE IS THE ONE WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR. 70 YEARS WE HAVE WAIT FOR A STRONG LEADER. MODIJI’S ENTRY INTO THE WESTERN COUNTRIES SUCH AS AMERICA HAS BEEN PREVENTED BY THE CONGRESS PARTY, WHO ARE VERY HATEFUL OF HIM, CAUSE THEY CANT MATCH HIM OR OUT PERFORM HIM….SO THEY ARE DESTROYING HIM IN THE MEDIA AND ABROAD…..WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN THEY ARE THROWN OUT OF POWER, AND MODI IS THE PM? THEY WILL INVITE HIM WITH FULL HONORS. 2002 WAS A RIOT. THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO GO ON, AND THEY IS WHAT THE CONGRESS WILL USE TO DESTROY HIM….MOST OF THE NEGATIVITY ON MODIJI ISN’T ISLAMIC AT ALL….MUSLIMS IN GUJURAT ARE HAPPY AND THEY ARE VOTING FOR HIM IN LARGER NUMBERS EVERY DAY……IT’S THE CONGRESS MINISTER WHO SLANDERING HIM….NOT TO FORGET THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES WHO DON’T WANT A STRONG LEADER IN INDIA, AND IT WILL BE HARD TO MANIPULATE HIM….LIKE MMS.

    JAI HIND.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    If Narendra Modi is the future of India, then God bless India.

    [Reply]

    Simba Reply:

    Indians are getting one more chance to get a real leader after nearly 60 years. The last was Shri Sardar Vallabbhai Patel. Take it otherwise we will regret. Look at our progress. 400million Indians live below poverty. Corruption. Security. Kashmir. etc Narendrabhai is the only person at present who can make us proud like Gujaratis.

    Ram Reply:

    Ravi, you have a one point agenda. India needs strong leadership, Modi may not be perfect, but at least he provides people with a government that cares about development of the state, with opportunities for the people to develop and grow. You have to respect him for that. The other political parties have failed to project credible leaders. Rahul Gandhi is developing and with MMS as mentor will fail to make the mark. People like Ratan Tata, Mukesh Ambani and other industrialists will not be singing his praises if he was not progressive.

    Paul Reply:

    Ravi if Modi is not future of India or the likes of him,then India has no future.

    Indy Reply:

    No. Let god protect cowardly anti Indian Islamist fanatics like you who hide behind Hindu names from Modi.

    Rajeev Reply:

    If you are muslim, god help your Ummah..

    Guest Reply:

    God has blessed India with Narendra Modi. Only he can move India to her rightful place in the world. All congressi politicians are stupid, corrupt people only interested in vote bank politics to stay in power. India is no Germany and BJP is no Nazi party. India has fairly independent press to employ people like Zia, judiciary and the power is distributed across state and different regional part. If BJP forms government then its will be a collision govt and there will be many regional party with different opinions and some body will represent Muslim interest like JDU. So Muslims should just chill out like the new head of Darul Uloom. Muslim must understand that the days of Aurenzeb is over and India is a democratic country and wish of majority will prevail. To this day India has maintained secular character even though its a Hindu majority state unlike all the ours neighbours who became Islamic nation and are prosecuting the minorities. The day Muslims understand this and stop living in Aurenzebs era better it will be for them. The must understand that world has multi cultural and multi religion and it is going to stay like that, they must accept these and join main stream without analyzing every thing through Islamic prism. Start using some common sense without analyzing if common sense is allowed in islam.

    KD Reply:

    You’d rather have the ’secular good for nothing’ Digvijay Singh as the future of India – with Teesta as his side-kick !

    Sumter Reply:

    Ravi you are right .My vote is with you

    Abhi Reply:

    Ravi,

    judging from your responses it comes as no surprise that we were ruled by Mughals & thereafter by the Brits for more than 600/700 odd years. No-one in this blog has prasied the Gujarat govt for what happened. You seem to be in a hyper defensive & immature in all your responses. Guess that is a reflection of the type of a man you are.

    Everyone talks about the carnage that followed (incl you), but no-one speaks about what led to the carnage. What gives the muslims the right to burn a bogey filled with innocent pilgrims who had not harmed anyone. If it was your father in that bogey then I don’t think you would have pouted such words of wisdom.

    I’am also a liberal Hindu & so is most of the nation (otherwise the fate of muslims would have been the same as Hindus in Pakistan). But that doesnt give the Muslims of my country the divine right to play aorund with the lives of Hindus. If they do then they should accept the fury that follows.

    Btw, have you been to Gujarat? (guess you will say Yes, even if you haven’t). I’am from Gujarat & the Muslsims there are praise Modi for bringing development into the state. The Imam of Darul Uloom isn’t a fool in praising Gujarat!

    Ravi Reply:

    Abhi

    I suggest you read what you have written again and then make a list of assumptions you have made, stuff you have accepted as truth.

    You will soon come to the conclusion that what you have written is purile rubbish.

    Piyush Reply:

    Spot on. “In Modi we trust”

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    “What ever the distractors say, the fact is that Gujrat is more vibrant, more inclusive, more honest , less corrupt state in India today. It will rank the lowest in corriuption, the highest in efficincy.”
    Ah, but corruption is good. Look at the Congress party.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    WArrant of arrest for president of india and chief jutice wa issued from gujrat court.

    [Reply]

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Ram Autar,

    Everybody knows that that was a mistake. But, a former chief justice of India will very likely get an arrest warrant soon if cases are followed up in right earnest. The present president too is having some black sheep in her menage, who too will someday soon get the much in demand warrants.

  • http://- Rajeev

    What a joke? Modi compared to Hitler. Hitler killed 6 million jews whereas Modi is guilty of standing by when 750 muslims (250 useless hindus) were killed.

    This just shows muslim soft-terrorists like Zia can stoop to any level to justify their hate for Modi and ofcourse hindus.

    This Zia guy is perfect terror material. Thank god US did not allow this vermin to step on its soil.

    [Reply]

    jay Reply:

    SADDAM HUSSAIN IN IRAQ WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF CLOSE TO A MILLION MUSLIMS….WITH HIS WAR WITH IRAN, AND KUWAIT…AND YET DELHI MUSLIMS CAME OUT IN SUPPORT FOR HIM IN 2003…..THEY WERE MARCHING IN THE STREETS OF DELHI, CHANTING THINGS LIKE “WE ARE WITH YOU SADDAM!”….YOU CAN SEE THE PICTURES IN INDIAN NEWS PAPERS SUCH AS HINDUSTANTIMES OF 2003.

    HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF A MILLION MUSLIMS, AND YET THEY STAND AND FIGHT FOR HIM AND IS THIER LEADER EVEN THOUGH HE DID NOTHING TO HELP INDIAN MUSIMS….

    700 MUSLIMS DIE IN A RIOT…AND MODIJI IS A HITLER…..

    MY DEAR GOD, PLEASE AWAKEN THE WORLD….

    [Reply]

    Hamid Reply:

    Dont think wrongly. Muslim was against the foreign invasion by USA but no support for Sadam. What Sadam achieve at end, that will happen to Modi as he is mass murdere. Watch patiently.

    [Reply]

    Ram Reply:

    Hamid you are being silly. Muslims kill more muslims in Pakistan and other Islamic countries. In India muslims enjoy many rights not given in Islamic countries. Muslims in India have made poor choices as far as their leaders are concerned.

    USA has killed more muslims in Iraq as per some very respected journals, for example Lancet(I think I got the name correctly). Anyway the present Iraqi government and USA have refused to count the number of people killed in the conflict. So if you think USA is going to come running and finish off Modi, think again. USA is unable to do anything about Hugo Chavez and the lebanese hezebollah. USA is no saint, they only attack when their interests are affected.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Oh no…Hindus are so scared..Non-muslims are kicking sorry muslims a$$es day in day out….Delusional…

    ram autar Reply:

    JAY MOST OF THE STORIES against saddam were fabricated by western press including story of wmd.he had 70%yes rating.resistence to american also confirm this.to safeguard law of land u can kill or fight.but u kill sombody innocent for nothing u will be hanged.even now thousands of iraqis are daily visiting his grave and praying.while if any american found on road is hot dead.

    [Reply]

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Rajeev,

    Are you really serious about the news of Zia not being allowed to enter the US?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shenoy Saab,
    The muslims in private always curse USA..It’s a fact but when it comes to making bucks, all these form long queue outside US embassasies worldwide.

    My pakistani friend who is very liberal never wants to go back to pakistan..his biggest fear..his children may become radicalised.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    For those Islamophobes here, who are concerned about Muslim Ghettos in Oldham, Leeds, etc.
    The word ghetto has a very strong association with the Jewish community. Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, etc. had large Jewish Ghettos in Eastern Europe up until WW II. These areas were riot prone as well as many an ethnic cleansing pogroms, just like the ones in Gujarat, were common place in these areas.

    Just one example, Whitechapel in East London had Jewish Ghettos long before the Bangladeshi community moved in there. Whitechapel used to suffer from British Union of Fascism sponsored riots when there were no Muslims there. Jewish children lagged behind the Christian community with regards to educational achievements. That trend has now been reversed. No Muslims involvement here at all.

    Before the Jews moved into Whitechapel, the area was home to English working classes, who had moved there from the shires looking for jobs in expanding London. Children of these working class English lagged behind middle classes, in terms of education and other developmental measures. Dickens captures this admirably in his literature. The situation has been different for a long time, children of working classes have progressed rapidly and to grand heights.

    History of those times would suggest that working classes were thieves, rapists, etc, only to be replaced by Jewish thieves, rapists, etc. The accusers were ancestors of David Cameron, both literally as well as metaphorically.

    I will be surprised if the Tory Party distinguishes between the Muslim Slums of Oldham from the Hindu slums of Wembley or Sikh slums of Southall.

    Sorry to puncture you Isalmophobe Balloon.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    well go with what tory party and the whole world says — muslim slums, muslim ghettos,muslim gangs, muslim terrorism, muslim uneducated…..yet to see something in a positive framework…

    never heard, from a uk context or any other, a word hindu ghetto or sikh ghetto..

    Ravi Reply:

    I am 100% that the tory party does not use the words Muslim Ghettos.

    YOU DO

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    “ban Muslim Ghettos”, says Cameron, — was the headline in the newspapers.

  • shan

    @zia, congratulations, this is one of your better written articles ,well researched in contrast to **** dished out bu chikermane etal.I think the success of gujrat is NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO MODI, IT REFLECTS THE GUJRATI CHARACTER. Chiman Bhai Patel used to run gujrat on a business model.
    Gujratis are very INDUSTRIOUS people ,and this has lot to do with the ARID climate and JAINISM.
    arid climate made them go for craft and trade , jainism prohibits tilling the soil let a cearthworm is killed THUS THEIR PENCHANT FOR BANKING OR DHANDHA. This is also cultural ,see the film guru ,all ambani wants from life is the right to do DHANDHA(business). This is the reason all the labour in diamond cutting business is from west bengaland ORISSA. This emphasis on business kicks in the face of BRAMHINICAL ORTHODOXY.Also by virtue of living in a country which can be called “the world is here”(though according to Ashish , it is a colony of bangladesh) I have the authority to v
    comment on Indians from different states. OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS TO UK GUJRATIS ARE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY FRONT. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small.In fact I have felt bengalees (that is exclusively WB)
    share a few common traits with english , some aspect of english life is GRAND , beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    You say – I have the authority to comment on Indians from different states.

    Perhaps you can share with the rest of us, as how you acquired such an authority, and upon what observations and data are your ridiculous conclusions based.

    Isn’t Dr Manmohan Singh a Sikh. Is he corrupt?

    Montek Singh is a Sikh, is he corrupt too?

    [Reply]

    Manohar Lal Sharma Reply:

    A person who defends and protects the corrupt people is more corrupt. This Mauni Baba Dr. Manmohan Singh has been defending his corrupt cabinet ministers for all the years. His own cabinet minister Raja is in CBI custody now. He tried his level best to protect him. Dr. Manmohan Singh is in fact responsible for the present state of corrupt affairs in India.

    [Reply]

    Paul Reply:

    Ravi, neither Montek nor manmohan is corrupt. You are naive for sur.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Paul

    I rather be naive than to be a bufoon, which you are.

    Indy Reply:

    Manmohan Singh is not Sikh, he is just Weak.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Ravi, MMS isnt a sacred saint. That image has gone to dogs long time ago !

    Now that congress cannot play the ‘honest PM’ card, it is preparing the ground for the next elections by raising the usual ‘protector of muslims’ card.

    This is 2011 – no such cards will work. The development card is the only one that will work and thats firmly in Narendra Modi’s pocket.

    [Reply]

    Bhavesh Reply:

    Leader of thief is also called thief. CWG, 2G. Hey improve your knowledge before coming in online forum.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ravi da sussu nanga, this is a classicalPLONKER. remember the adage ONE SWALLOW DOESN’T MAKE A SUMMER.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan the semi trained butcher.

    One platitude does not answer the question I asked.

    You are no more authrised to speak about regions of india than a dead squiril is.

    You were given the chance to defend you irrational statement and you blew it.

    You are a racist.

    DR DEV MISHRA Reply:

    My last post dealt with Indian Brits. This post deals with UK MUSLIMS. Ravi is right for maybe 50 % of muslims here, they want to improve just like their hindu/ sikh cousins.

    But a significant proportion actually regress. I see an older generation of muslims opening their hearts out to me in anguish that their sons are radicalised or even ghettoised- growing beards w/o moustaches, hanging out with muslim gangs, making no efforts to integrate or assimilate. They also are dismayed that their daughters are wearing hijabs and going further- burkas, jilbabs.

    A girl in Luton 2 years ago tried to sue her secondary schol for not etting her wear the jilbab- which is a formless tent like dress and only shows a chink for the eyes- she did it on legal aid !!

    My muslim secretary showed me a very glossy Islamic pamphlet which tells them that they are not supposed to celebrate childrens birthdays or even let their children birthdays of others. It is moronic. But to some extent this ghettoisation and hatred of the other has existed since time immemorial.

    We in India need to be aware of these facts. In slums and mohallas all over the country, this pattern of seperatism, ghettoisation, educational underachievement leads to poverty, violence, hatred of the other and an extreme sensitivity towards religious matters where ppl are willing to die for some Danish cartoons.

    Ravi and Ramavtarpakistani, pl note

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra.

    Nothing disagrreable in what you say.

    However, their are H I N D U forces in India who similarly disapprove and try to prevent celeberation of St Valentines day.

    We did expell a Muslim artist from India to Qatar because he painted a goddess nude.

    Lunatics are not just presnt in the Muslim community, we have them too.

    I rest my case

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, comparing somebody trying to prevent St Valentines day celebration to birthday celebration is like apple and orange.

    India never hasd st valentinnes day –it is an import of last 10 years.

    Every community (except may be Muslims, I am not sure) celebtates birthdays, may be with cake, may be with traditional meal. It is one thing not to celebrate; but it does not make any sense why one couldnt participate.

    At least we didnt kill the artist. Nobody threatened to kill him. There is a long line of willing murderers after the danish cartoonist. And the dutch producer was killed.

    Forget nude.. Ask Hussain to paint a ppic of Mohamed. Games will start then.

    Ravi Reply:

    India’s First Ever Eugenics Experiment

    Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu – born in MymenSingh which is now in Bangladesh – was a very distinguished and an eminent scientist, whose main field of study was Plant Physiology. This much is well known and every Indian is very proud of him, however, what is less known is that Dr Boshu was also in charge of a secret project, which was personally sanctioned by the Prime Minister of India.

    This project – a first of its kind – introduced the field of EUGENICS to India. Eugenics – in case you were wondering – is the science of improving the genetic composition of a population.

    Here I would like to introduce to you an Urdu word – Quom – it simply means a community, a society, a nation. I am sure you are familiar with the poet Dr Mohammad Iqbal’s composition Sare jahan se achcha Hindustan hamara. This patriotic poem is often referred to as a Quomi Tarana – a national anthem. The rest I assume is obvious enough.

    The word Quom is very musical, almost guttural in its enunciation, and those who freshly learn it can’t help repeating it. Best way to picture this, is to imagine a child running around continuously repeating the word it has recently learnt, without actually understanding its meaning. Quom, Quom. Quom.

    The Indian Prime Minister, was worried that the Bengali Quom was increasingly drifting towards fascism, and in order to arrest this unwelcome development, he approved a secret Eugenics project. Its objective was to produce a genetically modified Quom, which had an increased sense of Rationality and Humanity, just like the white English people do.

    Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu was quick to realise the potential benefits this project would bestow upon its subjects, and being a Bengali, he felt the primitive urge to favour his own Quom. He therefore chose two Bengali men as subjects of this project.

    After the first phase of the experiment was over, the Prime Minister was invited to review early results and this is what he observed:

    1. The first subject instead of losing his fascistic instincts had actually become an enthusiastic and a committed fascist. Upon release from the experiment he first became a pamphleteer for the RSS and then a research analyst with the Hindu Fascist think tank called Dr Shyama Prasad Mukherjee Institute. He now writes a column for the TOI. He has grown a walrus moustache, so much favoured by the RSS glitterati.

    The second subject fared less well, so his post experiment fate requires a slightly longer report.

    2.The second subject was beginning to show signs of delusion, he imagined he was a Rational Humanist, just like Walter Mitty did, or had done if he had known what it meant to be a Rational Humanist.

    3. This individual was sent to a state abattoir, where he was taught the basic skills of Butchery.

    4. As luck would have it, a Hospital in Kent was looking for someone who was able to remove varicose veins quickly. This, one imagines, he could do.

    5. Another long lasting side effect of this unfortunate Eugenics experiment is that he developed a sixth sense. Let me be more specific, he developed an ability to determine a Quom’s persistent characteristics, by merely looking at the freshly removed varicose vein. Here are some of the more profound deductions he was able to make, the instant the offending vein was removed.

    6. OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS TO UK GUJRATIS ARE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY FRONT.

    7. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL.

    8. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.

    9. Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer.

    10. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small. In fact I have felt bengalees (that is exclusively WB) share a few common traits with english , some aspect of english life is GRAND , beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.

    These are his own words from this very blog. I have not editorialised them at all. Any suggestion that the second subject is a regular contributor to this blog, is entirely deliberate.

    Those among you who are acutely observant would have noted, how imbued with Rationalism and Humanity are the statements numbered from 7 to 11.

    One final observation this eminent butcher made, was let out of the bag in a previous blog, and that is Bengali’s are now defined as those who live in West Bengal. The Eugenics project, as if by the magic of genetic manipulation has completely removed all Bengaliness from those who live in East Bengal (Bangladesh).

    I wonder what Dr Jôgodish Chôndro Boshu would be like had he been re-incarnated again in Mymensingh Bangladesh. How much of the original Bengali characteristics would he still be able to recognise in the Bengali Quom among the Bangladeshis, considering the success of the genetic manipulation he carried out during India’s first Eugenics experiment.

    shan Reply:

    @ravi circumcised , it is Bose , basu , not Boshu if you are writing in English, then again it is too much to expect from an airhead like you. As to my comments each and every one merely summarises what the statistics denote(I can understand Sandhu getting riled). The greatest proof of unbiased approach is that I have not spared my fellow quom. As to NHS employing me to the extent i can afford BMW 330, says a fair bit about the demand for my professional expertise. I not only do varicose vein ,but colectomies ,appendectomies and many other surgery , which willbe toomuch to take in for a DOLE DEPENDENDENT in Toxeth, or Oldham or Luton .

    Rajeev Reply:

    Here a clip from Pakistani film, where Hindus are openly badmouthed…
    What Ram Autar and Ravi have to say about their country?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqcUWtSth8&feature=related

    ram autar Reply:

    millions like this is available in hindu libraries.we condemn this.rss is made with literature like this.may be these scenens are are part of drama.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    cia, mossad, usa, jews, zionist, hindu, bramin conspiracy

    shan Reply:

    Yes Ravi the plonker Bengalees live in WEST BENGAL , Bangladeshis live in Bangladesh, just like irish and english speak english , nobody in their sane mind would suggest churchill was irish or jerry Adams is English.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    So Muslims living in Lahore, are they Punjabi or not.

    Sarvesh Reply:

    I agree from your point that there are forces in India who oppose( some time violently) vlentine day, and intend no argumnet over this.

    But allow me to disagree with your assertion that “we expell a Muslim artist from India to Qatar because he painted a Goddess nude”
    Either you are misinformed or arguing for the sake of it. M F Hussain is facing legal charges in India for hurting sentiments of people and like anyother criminal he escped from the country, this blatant lie by pseudo-seculars that Hindus had forced him to flee. I am only a cultural Hindu and do not believe in God or Goddess but there are people whose sentiment may get hurt if I try to paint their Goddesses nude it as simple as that. Hindus wrere only showing him black banners and shouting slogan against him nobody ever tried to physically harm him unlike Muslims did with Taslima Nasrin, Salman Rushdie.

    MF hussain could have painted Fatima and Muhammed naked, but he opted Hindu Goddesses to display his porn thinking because he knew that Hindus are mild he will get publicity and his head will not roll unlike in case of his former chioce.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, the crypto jihadi. Just find out why everytime an indian is caught in UK with Immigration racket ,drugs , insurance fraud, why nearly always the surname is bains, kalra , dhillon etc.as to domestic violence I suggest you see the film PROVOKED.So stop blowing hot air from your posterior.

    Srini Reply:

    Narendra Modi is future of India. It is high time Muslim writers stop demonizing one of the best administrators of India. Compared to good for nothing Manmohan Singh who doesn’t have guts to do anything, NM is great and should become India’s PM.

    [Reply]

    R Subramanian Reply:

    Our HM coined the slogan on the action taken in Jammu and Kashmir due to violence by separatists which goes “Inaction is also an action”. This is what the Congress did in 1984 during anti sikh riots watched by everyone including other minorities and secularists. “Inaction is also an action” was followed. Genocide was heaped on Kashmiri pandits . Every ruler in J & K and Centre remained silent based on the dharma “Inaction is also an action”. After Rajiv killing, Tamilnadu was tormented by violence on DMK men and their properties – courtesy congressmen. The State and Central Government allowed violence to continue unabatd for three days observing “Inaction is lso an action”. In Tamilnadu, three newspaper employees were burnt alive in live TV coverage in a newspaper office due to family feud. The CM of TN , during an interview, at Delhi airport said that the matter is closed .The culprits were never booked so far.based on the secular dharma “Inaction is also an action”. On 15th Jan 2011, some people entered some houses in Nungambakkam Chennai when the family members of the families were celebrating Pongal and the thugs offered religious prayers disregarding the objections of the people and even refusing to vacate the houses and stopping their prayers. Even stray dogs will not dare to do that The powers that be followed the dharma of “inaction is also an action. A professor lost his hand because of his comment on a religious leader. No TV debates requiring “very very deep probe byan honest officer like SIT probe in Gujarat. The secular groups have already creaed precedences of following “inaction is an acion” onhundreds of occasions and situationslike the ones mentioned the above. Yet everyone blames only Modi. Whythese double standard?Congress apologised reluctantly for violence on sikhs after 25 years. Should ot Modi be given similar time?

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Muslim Brotherhood

    • Egypt’s oldest and largest Islamist organisation
    • Founded by Hassan al-Banna in 1928
    • Has influenced Islamist movements worldwide
    • Mixes political activism with charity work
    • Banned from open political activity
    • Rejects use of violence and supports democratic principles
    • Wants to create a state governed by Islamic law
    • Slogan: “Islam is the Solution”

    Courtesy of the BBC

    __________________________________________

    Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh

    • India’s oldest and largest Hindutava (Hindu Fundo) organisation
    • Founded by Dr. K. B. Hedgewar in 1925.
    • Has influenced Hindu Fundamentalist Communal Organisations worldwide.
    • Mixes political activism with charity work, just like Lashkar-e-Taiba
    • Has been banned many times from open political activity
    • Exercises its political influence through – lame duck gimmick prone – BJP.
    • Practices use of violence in the shape of RIOTS and political assinations.
    • Its ultimate aim is to create INDIA governed by HINDU Laws and to completely subjugate Indian Muslims.
    • Slogan: India for HINDUs.

    Modi is a H I N D U FUNDAMENTALIST and a former RSS Prachark.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    There is a limit in lying. RSS never said ” India is for Hindus,”

    And by you making it equivalent to LeT, the perpetrator of worldwide terrorism, you will only bring more recruits to RSS.

    So, let us say Modi is Hindu fundamentalist and a former RSS Pracharak – so what? Is it illegal? Couldnt he contest elections? What is your beef?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    I think comparing Modi with Hitler shows profound ignorance and minimal reading on hitler and shallow understanding of both the German politics and mindset, as well as COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS OF THE TRIGGER POINT GODHRA GODHRA GODHRA. Then this is classical Islam , when somebody swears at me it is wrong , when I swear at somebody it is okay , a bit doctrinal a la DHIMMI syndrome.
    in fact MODI is no more prejeducial than CAMERON(read his comments yesterday on multiculturalism)
    or THATCHER and CHURCHILL BEATS MODI ANT TIME OF THE DAY, yet churchill RECEIVED NOBELPRIZE , is a demi god for the English and all the anglo saxons (wasp included).same with Japanese , they only are interested in WHITE WORLD.So rather than going on and on , they should go for RECONCILIATION and ADMIT EVERY PARTY WAS CULPABLE (hindus muslims , police ,politicians , media)

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan,
    reserve compartment at godhra was put on fire by goons of vhp to provide reason for riot,which was preplanned.all passengers of reserve compartment are` alive.as per fir it is muslims who brought pumps to extinguish fire.there was no muslim inside compartment.

    modi was bad he is bad lekiNJABSE AMERICA KA VISA CANCEL HUA HAI USKI G-PAHTI HUI HAI.

    he also murdered his political opponent hiren pandya.a popular brhmn leader of gujrat.

    Rajeev Reply:

    LIE…LiE…LIE…

    what a joke Reply:

    Hi Rajeev, lets ignore the moronic comments of jockers across the border. Just posing as Ram, Ravi they pretend to be what they are not! These jockers do not know Brahmins are a part of Hindusim and not hinduism itself. Also all the ills of the world according to these jockers are cause of americans, Jews and Hindus (OOps!!! Brhmn( can’t even spell this right))!!!!

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    RSS wants to change Indian Constitution – which is Secular – into a constitution which is based upon H I N D U beliefs and scriptures. It wants to completely subjugate all other religious minorities in India, including Muslims. If that does not equate to – India for Hindus – then I do not know what does.

    Perhaps you can enlighten us with what you think is RSS’s stand vis a vis religious minorities in India.

    RSS is a terrorist organisation even if – for now – it terrorises citizen’s of India.

    Being a Hindu Fundo may not be illegal – thanks to our secular and tolerant constitution, it is still immoral dangerous and unacceptable.

    Of course he can contest elections, as he did, however, in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood remains a banned organisation. If it is OK for Gujarati’s to elect a Hindu Fundo, then how can it be wrong for Egyptians to elect Islamic Fundo’s. A fear you expressed in the last forum.

    My beef is an 8oz T Bone Steak.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    That is your propaganda, and propaganda by some Muslims (not Christians, Sikhs, nor anybody else).
    It nevers aid it wants to subjugate anybody else. It only said Indians should first and formost be for India. Some (or many) Muslims, because of their concept of Ummah, infidels, nation being second to religion etc, have problems with this. Well, it is a problem they defined, not a problem RSS caused. Only people with questionable loyalty should have a problem with RSS position.
    RSS ahs never said Muslims and Christians and Sikhs should convert to hinduism — first of all theer is no conversion in hinduism; and Hindus consider all as children of God, no infidels there!

    Islamic Brotherhood created Osama and Al Sawhiri. Every one can have their own opinion. It is your belief that Islamic Brotehrhood and the hatred spewn by Quitb and the 9/11 and numerous killings worldwide is similar and same as what RSS is doing.. I would think that is a minority, small minority belief,a belief held by hard core Islamists liek u in India.

    If RSS can attarct majority of people, kudos to them..

    Avinash K. Rangra Reply:

    What about the poor souls who were toasted alive in Godhra inside the train cars? Who did it? Why is it that no one talks about them? Is it because they were Hindus? Right after Indra Gandhi was assissinated by her body guard. it was Rajiv who instigated the murder of zillions of Sikhs. He never apologized. Nehru gave away POK to Pakistan, who gifted a huge chunk to China. Nehru’s policies or lack thereof, encouraged China to attack India in 1962. Are Nehru and Rajiv not guilty of treason? on the contrary, powers that be have named quite a few places, programs, airports etc to honor him! ha, ha, ha.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You think my views are those held by a small minority.

    Then I suggest, perhaps Digvijay Singh – the General Secretary of Congress, who has his ears to the ground – and I are in a minority.

    I think not.

    However, what I do think, is that you have swallowed – hook line and sinker – the RSS propaganda.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Here is some more propoganda for you, this one is straight from the horse’s mouth

    I guess I do not have to provide you with the connection between Golwalkar and the RSS.

    Here is Golwalkar’s – the ideological fountain head of the RSS – views about minorities.

    This is taken from a lecture given by Martha Nussbaum.

    “…Golwalkar now turns to English dictionaries and to British and German political science. The five elements that he finds repeated as hallmarks of national unity are geography, race, religion, culture, and language. He examines each of these in turn and then analyzes several nations to see to what extent they embody the desired unities.

    Germany impresses him especially for the way in which she has managed to unify a large territory under one rule. He observes: “German race pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races, the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for races and cultures having differences going to the root to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by.”

    In the end, Golwalkar’s view of national unity is not exactly that of Nazi Germany. He is not very concerned with purity of blood, and really he can’t be, because most Muslims and Christians in India are converts.

    He is far more concerned with the group’s desire to merge into the dominant whole. Groups who fall outside the five-fold definition of nationhood, he concludes, can “have no place in the national life unless they abandon their differences and completely merge themselves in the national race.”…”

    I suggest you read the last paragraph carefully.

    S Singh Reply:

    Digvi– haha, he will not get 10,000 votes..and not even a magnanimous loser …sore loser.Congrtess will go down because of people like him!

    Johnson Thomas Karingozhakal Reply:

    GANDHI SAID, “POVERTY IS THE WORST FORM OF VIOLENCE”

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Binoy

    Here is the RSS oath…

    “I take the oath that I will always protect the purity of Hindu religion and the purity of Hindu culture for the supreme progress of the Hindu nation. I have become a component of the RSS and will do the work of the RSS with utmost sincerity and unselfishness and with all my body, soul, and resources, and I will keep this vow for as long as I live. Victory to Mother India.”

    Now tell me which bit of this do you disagree with or how in your opinion this does NOT amount to – India for Hindus.

    [Reply]

    ab Reply:

    Ravi, surely you are “congress” secularist.Bcoz of Pseudo secularist like you India is still bleeding in the name of religion. I think you need Jadoo ki Jhaapi

    Ravi Reply:

    ab

    You are absolutely right.

    I am Congress.

    I am liberal

    There is no such thing as a Psedo Secular, not in my way of thinking. I am propoer secular and proud of it.

    India is bleeding because of cypto fascists like you.

    No amout of Jaddo Jhappi is going to save you.

    ram autar Reply:

    India is for Hindus

    indians are not hindus when they say INDIA FOR HINDUS ,THEY MEAN INDIA IS FOR BRHMNS.

    HINDUS ARE THEIR SUBJECT AND SLAVE.THAT IS 48%OF INDIAN WOMEN ARE ENEMIC.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    rss is thousand time more powerful,danderous and wicked than rss.though they are also bad.they never attacked any pakistani hindu.ravi u understand brhmns,

    The Brahmins are worse than any wicked Jew. There are many good Jews but no decent Brahmin will inbreed with a Brahmin. The Brahmins are very inbred and far closer to self-destruction than the Jews. Long ago, there were some good Brahmins, which enabled the Brahmins to continue with tremendous power. There are some good Jews, but if they follow in the footsteps of the Brahmin, they will disappear

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    powerful,danderous and wicked than rss

    powerful,dangerous and wicked than let.sorry

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    You are right. There is a limit to lying. The RSS and its numerous front organisations have been indulging in falsehoods, lies and untruths from day one to further its agenda. Time it stopped.

    The RSS’ ideology is very clear, the establishment of the totalitarian Hindu Rashtra, where people of other faiths would be unequal citizens, no elections, no democratic rights, etc. If you wish to live in denial of this, be my guest.

    No, it is not illegal or a crime to be Hindu fundamentalist and a former RSS pracharak. That is the beauty of our liberal Indian Constitution that permits all shades of opinions.

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    You must be crazy to believe that. RSS does have it’s extreme Hindu fanatics, but it would be ridiculous to believe that RSS will be establishing a totalitarian Hindu state and drive, kill or convert the rest of religions to Hinduism.

    Go and tell your pessimistic fairy tale to someone else dude. This is exactly what Congress wants you to believe and you have probably already fallen for it.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Reply to Kunal

    Take the trouble and read Golwalkar’s works – the Bible (pun intended) for the RSS. Good luck.

    I do not need the Congress to tell me, I am capable of making my own judgments . The Congress has been no paragon of virtue either – (scams, you name it) like any other party, the people of India are left with Hobson’s choice. Wish there was a better alternative to the existing parties. Till such time, the people prefer the lesser of the two evils.

    raj Reply:

    Do we want Indian demagogue in Canada?” said the Toronto Star recently, following an invitation sent to Modi to visit the country.
    — why don’t you ask them what happend to native population living there before white settlers.
    pot kettle, black springs to mind.
    ethnic cleaners talking about morality.
    — wrong example to quote….

    shan Reply:

    @raj, well done , not only the WHITE ANGLO SAXONS killed all the buffalos when they coudn’t tackle their sudden raids , SO RESORTING TO STARVING THEM(Same pakistanis did with Balochis , killed all their sheep circa 1973), but when 5000 sikhs sailed to settle in canada in 1938 , THEY WERE SWIFTLY DISPATCHED BACK, but sikhs being an enormous cannon fodder in british war effort , made the His majesty’s Govt FORCE its DOMINION (cananda) to accept the sikhs.

    kunal Reply:

    lol again golwalkar …u r stuck up on golwalkar since the first post ….looks like you s.. his c…

    one fanatic doesn’t make the whole organisation the same.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    I am not stuck up on Golwalkar, it is the RSS. I will ignore the use of cuss words, as I do not expect anything better from the likes of you. Good luck.

    Simba Reply:

    Ravi, Why do you use western media to justify yourself. They have also written so much bad abouls Muslim organisation and Muslim religion. What if people start using those article and convince themselves that Muslims are terrorist. Use our own books to justify your aurguments. Also our own books will give a true picture of nationalist RSS.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Oh you mean RSS propoganda will give me a trye picture of RSS.

    I can’t wait to read that. Bring on Tarun Vijay

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    “Ravi”, you definitely are a “liberal Hindu” and I am Bill Clinton.hahaha

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    This Ravi guy is actually Rabiuddin Bin Laden/

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Pity you. Living under some illusion or falsehood or denial. You think anyone who disagrees with the RSS’ world view, is not a Hindu. Get a life.

    The majority of Indians do not approve of the RSS’ agenda. If it were so, the political front of the RSS – Jan Sangh/BJP would have been in power at the centre and in all states (with some exceptions) from 1950 onwards without a break and with four-fifth of all the seats, assuming that the democratic Indian Constitution would be intact, which is highly unlikely in such a scenario. RSS’ Hindu Rashtra would have been a reality. Thank the stars that this is not the case.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Satish,
    Don’t pity me..Pity India that is being ruled by Pro-LeT Dynasty.

    Tejas Reply:

    Ravi,
    May be RSS is Hindu fundamentalist but who gave birth to it. Anti Hindu fundamentalists like Congress, communists and Muslims. It is pro pakistan attitude of Muslims and constant refusal of politicians and media to accept that fact has made RSS stronger. If Muslims of India start speaking for minorites of Pakistan, and tell Pakistan strongly that Kashmir belongs to India then there will be a significant reduction in anti Muslim feeling amongst Hindus but Muslims can’t do what is not in their heart. If Muslims of India tell Pakistan in one voice that Kashmir belongs to India, Pakistan will never look at Kashmir. How often did you raise voice against vote bank policy of Congress? And if you do not do that how can you expect Hindus to stand up against fundamentalists among Hindus?

    [Reply]

  • Bhaskar Chatterjee

    This piece comes from habitual Modi bashers. Even state of Israel will disagree with this.

    More Muslims killed during riots under Congress rule in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Assam, Bihar. That didnt make Indira, Rajiv, respective CMs Nazis.

    Appears even educated Muslims like this blogger is stuck at 2002 while Mullahs like Vastanvi have moved on.

    [Reply]

  • Rahim

    Riots never see caste or religion….and 2002 was not the first time in history that a part of india erupted into riots…..but we can not ignore the good work by him as CM of gujrat…….Gujrat today has highest growth rate and all the communities , be it hindu or muslim , are gaining from it…..this is an irony that a common gujrati muslim has left the past behind and moved on….but the rest of so-called liberals, who are actually extremists are still burning the fire and are ready to spark communal riot at any point of time…….and this applies to both hindu and muslim religious or psudo-liberal people……Spare the Gujrat and let us develop……
    What UPA has given to muslims? what is the condition of Muslims in other indian states?
    @ Ravi…your comments are clear indication why hindus cry foul for being neglected….for it is people like who dont know the meaning of unity in diversity….spewing venom against own religion to get label of liberal is idiotic……it seems that you are settling some personal scores with hinduism than speaking for muslims…..

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    benoy
    since gundaas of rss are caught in bomb planting,bombing bussines totally stoppd.what a sad.legend of golwalkar in real danger.

    [Reply]

    VedicIndian Reply:

    yeah, then what are all these terror alerts being issued across the country? are you studying only at the madarsas?

    [Reply]

    Guest Reply:

    Good that those gunda were caught and should be hanged if require because we live in secular democratic nation. But the beacon of Islam that pakistan claims has trained millions of terrorist and sent them all over the world when is that going to stop. When is Simmi and Indian Mujahideen going to stop. Stop worrying about Hindus and bhramins, they are all secular people and those who go other side of the law there is law enforcing police and judiciary to put them behind the bar.

    [Reply]

  • Sunny

    I agree Guj incident was not good and atrocity was commited but so it happened with rest of communites of India like Sikh massacre in 1984 at Delhi, under president of Sikh community and Guj incident under Muslim President. It doesnt show that India is against these communities but lack of law and order and judicial dispensation, in general. Corrupt and inefficient regime at parliament with out dated statecraft. Current chaos and civil uprising in the form of Maoist, Maharashtra’s anti north Indians, J&K riots etc are bold thick writing on walls but political parties are busy in plundering the national wealth and they are blind by greed and rush before they lose next election.
    Egypt type revolt would be needed to free India from such misery otherwise such bloody riots will keep coming with different names and venues for different communities for convenience of politicial goons.
    Jai Hind!

    [Reply]

  • VedicIndian

    Interesting article. However, Gujarat riots were not instigated by Hindus; muslims forget Godhra which led to the riots. Not to mention, the kashmiri hindus and sikhs who were mass murdered by muslims. Do you see any apologies being issued by muslim leaders denouncing such acts and ensuring they dont happen again? (Note: there have been no riots in gujarat since 2002 and muslim population still thrives there.) Moreover, riots are bad for all communities. Its just that muslims live in extremely tight conditions in walled cities and thus can be mass murdered easily by even a small mob armed with enough ammunition. BTW, WHO KILLED THE 250 hindus? How many Hindu women and children died in Gujarat? who is apologising for that? Get over you communal mentality and holier than thou attitude because you believ that all non-muslims are evil. is modi making reservations for hindus in the govt job? are muslims being pushed out of the economy in gujarat? how are they suffering due to modi rule?

    [Reply]

  • Azeez Md

    Zia…do you not think Muslims should first start being Indians rather than muslims first. Make no mistake that this is the fundamental problem. Modi will always get his support as long as Muslims consider their religion as priority before nationhood. From what I see..very few have idea of nationhood and respect for secularism..is this not true?

    Leave Gujarat and Modi aside..what is happening in Pakistan today? What is the state of muslims in USA in the larger context????? So do we as community have no responsibility to change our outlook? If religon is the sole focus then that religion today has become the biggest liability. Modi is one among many that will make muslims a target.. as we have enough weakness to start with. What right have muslims to ask for when the right is denied every day to nonmuslims in Islamic countries???
    I would like your comments….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @azeez MD, HONESTY IS THE WORST POLICY, I would be careful if I were you, knowing the quom as you do . then again it reminds me of the RAFI song “TU HINDU BANEGA NA MUSSALMAN BANEGA
    INSAN KA AULAD HAI INSAN BANEGA”

    [Reply]

    Azeez Md Reply:

    Honesty is the best policy not the worst dear friend. Just as caste system in Hindus stinks so badly, I am not afraid to say that its equally shameful when a muslim supports his religion over humanity. There is no difference between both. Caste system divides and divides the society while religious backwardness among majority of muslims makes them think less like rational human beings. There is no doubt that muslims themselves have to blame for their misery as they are targeted for clinging to religious rigidity and wearing religion as a badge of honour. Being a muslim gives me nothing more than being a hindu or christian.
    Many hindus and muslims will instantly hate each other when provoked. While many Hindus vote for caste based politics, significant number of Muslims go a step further and support the even fanatics and murderers in the name of religion. If few people here start blaming , there is no end to it. it is far better to be an Indian and practise his own religion rather than say I am muslim first and ask for respect in mindblowing diverse nation like India. No wonder Pakistan never understood this and today is ready to collapse. india is not just hindus or muslims- pure arrogance on either side makes these both groups think they know better-what about jains, sikhs, christians? If not these groups we would be a rogue state like Pakistan or Saudi where no other religion than islam survives and not one guy wishes to go other than to die. What makes this country special is its diversity. Respect for culture and history is far more important than your religion or state.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Azeez

    I could not have put this better myself. Bravo mon ami

    DR DEV MISHRA Reply:

    Ravi- you throw such different missiles at me in a single post it is difficult to keep up.
    MF HUSSAIN- I am liberal and can live with his paintings. But if he offends religious sensitivities of many, then in a democracy them 2 need to have a dialogue. He needs to show some respect for feelings.

    However, hindus in India, Europe or Nepal or USA did not go on ramages and kill ppl for this.

    Having said that, even I, a liberal, could see how some would be offended by the bare buttocks of Sita. It was full on- I have seen the images. Try getting him to even paint Muhammed’s face and they would kill him. If he paints Muhammed’s wife’s buttocks- the Islamists would chop his hand off.

    A little perspective

    ram autar Reply:

    mishrajee ur argument is bot correct.in islam naked ness is prohibited in hinduim u have temples with naked women.like kali.moreover the painting he made was made thousands of time hindu painters.mf hussain is taken as muslim not as indian classical painter.

    shan Reply:

    @AzeezMd, let me prevoke you by posing this question,”what can be done for the emancipation of the quom” or to put it otherway WHEN EACH AND EVERY RELIGION HAD TAKEN BACK SEAT DUE TO MIND SHATTERING ADVANCES IN SCIENCE, why islam is stuck in the rut. I am currently reading a biography of Marlowe (circa 1568) , in his days as a student in Cambridge , he was reknown for being an atheist ,mocking christianity. In Hinduism CHARBAK is known for hedonism , who said “The only purpose of this life is to live to its full ,and enjoy every pleasure including carnal”. Any such thought in Islam,i will be interested to know.

  • RajX

    If Zia thinks that Modi is comparable to Hitler because he did not prevent a couple of hundred Muslims to be killed, who is he going to compare the power hungry British stooge Jinnah, who is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands and uprooting of millions, with? Is Jinnah as savage as the islamist invader Babar? The BJP and RSS are not healthy political forces but to compare them with Nazis is juvenile.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Zia kind of Wahabi muslims are master of lies…You can not expect them to be honest.

    [Reply]

    Dorothy Reply:

    True.
    Kudos to you for having the gumption to speak the truth.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    Rajeev, great job. Keep it up. These people are not liberal by any standards. Fanatics can’t be liberal and these folks are fanatics and a few of them are just plain idiots who think they are protecting “victims” of Indian culture.

    [Reply]

  • Anurag

    Zia,

    Of course the onus of moving on should lie on Muslims alone. They are the ones who started those riots!!!

    When Muslims got beaten up nice and proper in the game they started themselves, they started crying hoarse! It happens everywhere in the world.

    [Reply]

  • Gourav Gupta

    hahahah hate propaganda .. nice article Modi Hitler hmmm then what was hitler .. muhommad

    [Reply]

  • Gaurav

    Can all these learned people tell me why is Congress considered a secular party and why is Gandhi parivar not compared with Hitler when thousands of Sikhs were killed in 1984 after the death of Indira Gandhi. Why not even a single politician had been sentenced in that case.

    I hope the author of this article publish a similar article about genocide done by Gandhis and some insight into the blackmoney.

    [Reply]

  • Chaitanaya Bhardwaj

    Its is utter rubbish to compare Narendra Modi to Hitler. Hitler was a part of a major propaganda where nazis were ruling just as every other Military Government has ruled. Like Saddam hated Sunni Muslims, Hitler hated Jews. The author of this article should know the fact that the Jews were being tortured and killed from the time Hitler came to power(after WW I).
    So, apart of the dark blott on Modi’s shirt of the riots after Godhra incident, have we seen any such big massacre story coming up, any group muslims being tortured and mercilessly killed in the jails of Gujarat? The answer is NO. So, how can Modi be compared with Hitler. Being such a carismatic and hard working personality, our country should be praising for him.
    No doubt whatever happened during the post Godhra riots was not correct. But it has been 10 years so I think Modi’s critics should get over it. You should see the work he has done for Gujarat. Gujarat’s success story comprises both of Hindus and Muslims. If still people do not see the good work done in Gujarat, then I lay pity on all those state governments and even our incompetent central government.

    [Reply]

  • Sid

    Mughal King Shah Zehan was NO great king at all certainly to Hindus, but his monument Taj Mahal lives on till date and kindles awe in every body’s mind. Same thing will be true of Modi, he may be detested by Media & sections of population. But be assured, he will leave behind an Industrial Taj Mahal in Gujarat, which will stand for a long time!

    [Reply]

  • Rajeev

    No matter with whom you compare Mody with….Hitler/ Changhis Khan/ Attila the Hun it doesn’t make any diffrence except than satisfying your ego ( ??? or making your purse thicker by congress), because Gujarat is not just moving or marching ahead but it is racing at a phenomenal pace….It is not about development it is about governance…I was bron in UP, living in delhi and have seen Bihar/ MP and Punjab closely, But for last 13 yrs I am a regular visitor of Gujarat and vey much in touch with Gujarati Muslim…What Mr. Vastanvi has said is absolutely right…each and every citizen of Gujarat is benefited by this development irrespective of cast or religion..only muslin ot outside Gujrat that too due to media biased reporting (like urs with ??unknown vetsted interest) and just on hearsay oppose modi. And then ofcourse media never lets post Godhra riots of Gujarat die (with some selective leaks of reports by SIT/ some police officer vague claim/ some NGO statement etc)
    I have never seen any state with such smooth fuctioning (of course I have not visited Germany during Nazi period so I can not comment on that), but surey today’s central Govt is functoning like banana republic,…..(and just to inform u I am a common indian, not BJP or left wing karyakarta)
    What do u say about: –
    1: first mr. Pranab mukarjee said that names can not be disclosed and investigaion is going on– now when 17 names are out by A pvt agency and a TV channel has shown some connection with kochi IPL.. He is taking action….is it a banana govt.? Action being taken on half list and on media report….what about complete list …and so called investigation? Don’t u think this is an attemp to hide the truth and an attempt to mislead masses by showing their false sincerety..?
    2: This central Govt. has proved worst ever in tackling with corruption, inflation and price rise..

    [Reply]

  • Rohit Kumar

    The author appears to be a bid hipocrate, can he justify the killing of kar sevaks by muslims in such a cold blooded conditions.

    If this so-called journalist defines Modi as culprit, what would he say to omar abdullah a person who restricted people of India to unferl flag on Indian soil. Kashmir valley today have only muslims, a killing by terrorists doesnot create any cry but a killing by army that also unintentional creates huge cry. Can they justify the violance on kashmiri pandits by muslims.

    Its very unfortunate to have such articles/blogs which is encouraging communalism among people. When everything goes silent such useless articles starts coming out from secular media houses.

    Further China is growing fastest, but Mao never been to any other country as beggers. Modi always said he never applied for US visa, but secular journalist maintained this. Modi is not like congress party leaders who has lot to hide in foreign banks.

    [Reply]

  • http://rediff Manish

    MODI JEE IS GOING TO BE FUTURE PRIME MINSITER OF INDIA. THE KIND OF DEVELOPMENT HE HAS MADE IN GUJARAT IS EXEMPLARY. WE NEED PRIME MINSITER LIKE MODI JEE WHO HAS THE VISION, GUTS & AGREESION TO TAKE INDIA TO THE NEXT HIGHEST LEVEL. MODI JEE YOUTH OF INDIA ARE COMPLETELY WITH YOU. PLEASE GO AHEAD & TAKE THE CHARGE IN “7 RED COURSE ROAD”

    THIS IS WARNING TO PAKISTAN. LET MODI JEE BECOME THE PM THEN NO KASAB WILL EVER DARE TO ROAM IN THE STREETS OF MUMBAI & NO MUSHARAFF WILL EVER DARE TO DO KARGIL IN HIS LIFE.

    “LONG LIVE MODI JEE”

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    The onus of moving on should not lie on Muslims alone.
    — so what do you suggest modi should do.
    if he talks – you say he is inciting , opening old wound
    if he doesn’t talk, you say, see this guy, doesn’t even say sorry.
    if he say sorry – you ask, why sould be be sorry , if he didn’t do anything bad. so he has done bad things…
    in reality , modi is made as a torch of muslim victimhood , you and other muslims do everything to keep it alive & burning bright. this is the true fact for indian secularist.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    modi should first go to jail and pay for his eveilness.modi is nothing he is part of system who is keeping him.neing backward brhmn media has transferred all blame on him.while riot was planned by parivar to win the comming election.evrybody is equally responsible.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Keep dreaming

    [Reply]

  • http://techcentral.in Kunal

    RSS bashers here claim the whole of RSS is composed of Hindu fanatics and if RSS ever comes to power it will destroy all the other religions.

    This is similar to saying not some but all Muslims are terrorists.

    Congress has instilled fear in many left liberal Indians that RSS is a terrorist organisation out to destroy our Muslims, Christians, Parsis and others. It is the organisation behind so called Saffron terror – the most dangerous of all terrorism., worse than Islamic terrorism according to our royal son Rahul Gandhi.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    The claim is reinforced by the events of the past.

    The RSS or its ideology is responsible for numerous misdeeds and crimes. Some examples

    1) The assassination of Mahatma Gandhi
    2) The infamous rath yatra of L K Advani leaving a trail of riots in its route and culminating in the demolition of the Babri Masjid.
    3) Gujarat 2002.
    4) Graham Staines’ burning to death. Here I must ask you, what was the fault of the two little children for meting out the same fate? Is mere association is good enough reason for you?
    5) Kandhamal, Orissa 2008.
    6) In Karnataka, implicit support to Ram Sene.
    7) Attacks on churches especially in BJP ruled states.
    8) The current investigation into the bomb blasts.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Satish

    Well said

    [Reply]

  • http://seffronterrorism aum

    Hope this writer is in his senses , by comparing MODI with hitler , he showed his ignorance , muslims are the one who started killing by torching hindus , When they start fight they get fitting reply, All muslims in gujarat are benefiting from th progress, If they feel GUJARAT is not for them they can live elsewhere , How come the writer has no time to write when muslims kill thousands of PUNDITs in kashmir? How come no muslim raises concern about the killings of pundits?

    [Reply]

  • Ramesh

    Comparing Modi to Hitler is just downright ludicrous. This is one of the most outrageous columns I have ever read. But this is a wonderful thing about our country. Freedom of experssion and pseudo secularism.
    Mr Zia, would you have the same guts to comment on the challenges facing the muslim community and Islamic terrorism worldwide?
    No development can erase memories of 2002 riots but there have been attrocities against Hindus too in this country (and sikhs in 1984).
    If the SIT team does not even have the evidence to start a prosecution, people like you should surely move on.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Zia is a radical muslim just like majyority of muslims. He wears a liberal cloak and communist lef leaninig publication like HT gives him the platform
    FO

    [Reply]

  • umesh

    Modi is not hunting goodwill. He has already got it. But myopic people like you are unable to see it.
    The businessmen are the smartest of all when identifying the governance and stability.

    [Reply]

  • Shiuli

    Zia, in the last para of your blog U have appreciated Modi’s efforts. But the comparison with Hitler is way out. It would have been apt to compare current efforts of Modi with that of Mahatir’s, the Ex prime Minister of Malaysia, whose political career spanned almost 40 years, from his election as a parliamentarian in 1964 to his retirement as Prime Minister in 2003.
    As Prime Minister, he was credited with engineering Malaysia’s rapid modernization and economic growth, and initiated a series of bold infrastructure projects. He was a dominant political figure, winning five consecutive general elections and seeing off all of his rivals for the leadership of Malaysia’s ruling party, the United Malays National Organization. However, his accumulation of power came at the expense of the independence of the judiciary and the traditional powers and privileges of Malaysia’s royalty. He also deployed the controversial Internal Security Act to detain activists, non-mainstream religious figures, and political opponents including his sacked deputy, Anwar Ibrahim.

    As far Narendra Modi’s contribution to the state of Gujrat, as an industrial zone is considered, he is atleast making the intention clear that he wants his state to flourish, unlike leaders, who do not even have the mere intention of doing their job properly, and simply using the term to fill their own pockets.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.hindustantimes.com Tejas

    The media should necessarily go into the reasons why despite being very heavily blamed for his role in the riots, Modi is so popular. I am not saying that the riots against Muslims are justified or not justified. All I am saying that there is a need for the media to understand public psychology and address it correctly. The media must discuss why the public mood is anti Muslim in Gujarat in particular and in India in general. I do not see very blatant display of pro-Pakistan feeling amongst Mislims now a days but certainly saw it 20 years ago so someone tells me that Muslims are as patriot as Hindus I am not ready to believe. If someones makes such a claim before me then my question will be, “Then explain what I saw” And same is the question of mine to the media and so called secularists. If you say that Muslims as patriots as Hindus then what does the firework in Muslim localities when Pakistan won a match against India mean? Am I lying? Calling me a lier is not going to help as I know if I am lying or not. I have not made any systematic survey of patriotism amongst Muslims but my view is not based on any solitary incident too. The so called secularists and media have outright rejected this perception of Hindus and I think that there lies the trouble. The constant refusal of media and politians to accept and address this attitude amongst some Muslims (no body knows what percentage- and remember not all display such pro Pakistan feelings openly.) has caused loss of credibility.

    [Reply]

  • Aamir

    I feel that this article is a propaganda by Indian Congress Party, a party which itself is the legacy of British Colonial rule. In my opinion, such propaganda will never help as we know our future PM can be no one but Narendra Modi.

    In this article, this deliberate attempt to compare Modi with Hitler and mixing up 2002 riots and prosperity of Gujarat (which are actually two separate issues) is not making any sense and has been done with malicious and an attempt to tarnish his image as our future PM. Guys…he is atleast NOT inefficient and callous like his counterparts in ruling govt. Not sure, how many people would now recall how blatantly those ministers who were responsible for conducting CWG, were displaying their callous attitude through their remarks, when the stadias and other venues were not ready and athletes from different nations were backing off from the games. The entire world was talking about our unpreparedness and many more things and CWG became a national shame.
    Min. those who were involved in looting and plundering the nations wealth are now being arrested in five star jails, a symbolic action, just to stop the tarnishing of the image of this govt further.

    The ruling party don’t have any respect even for our soldiers. Scams like Adarsh Society and many more similar scams prove this.

    Guys, today when I recall the lives, sacrifices and standards set by those great souls and brave heroes of India, Khudiram Bose, Bhagat Singh, Subhash Bose, Chandrashekhar Azad, Queen of Jhansi and many more to count, I realize the need to fight the oppressive regime of price rise, corruption, irresponsible and indifferent attitude of the Govt, which is actually hurting the lives of poor Indians who are farmers, labors, working and middle class Indians.

    I’ve decided, being an ordinary citizen of this country, I would atleast try to ensure that I am NEVER EVER voting for this govt in my entire life. Last time I did this mistake, but not again.
    I hope, this govt realizes how fast it is loosing its popularity among the masses, perform introspection of what it had been doing and mend its ways!

    [Reply]

  • Rahul

    when Hindus going to through islamic supremacy people like ZIA HAQ out of India

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I am sure you meant to say, when Hindus gain supermacy then people like Zia Haq will be thrown out of India.

    Well it has not happened for at 2000 out of the last 3000 years. So I am no worried.

    [Reply]

  • Satish Haldankar

    Zia.

    Modi and the BJP are using the mantra of development to whitewash the horrific events of 2002 and make him acceptable to the rest of the country. Gujarat’s development should be a matter of pride for the country – no issues on that count, per se.

    The question.

    Can great development cancel out or override the abject failure of the administration in 2002 and
    who takes moral, legal and administrative responsibility for loss of 1200 plus innocent lives, whose only crime was residing in Gujarat? No one has come forward to express any remorse, apology and made efforts to deliver justice in double quick time.

    The errors of commission and omission in Gujarat since 2002 by the Sangh Parivar resulted in the BJP winning Gujarat, in the bargain losing India.

    [Reply]

    Kunal Reply:

    How is Modi responsible for the killing of 1200 innocent lives ? It is the Muslims who burnt down the train at Godhra. Even if the government would have interfered, the Hindus would have wanted to take revenge one day or the other. The killing would have taken place inspite of the governmen’ts efforts to stop it.

    Maharashtra didn’t sit still during the Mumbai riots….police were out in full force, even the State Reserve police and the Army was in the city. In spite of that hundreds were killed.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    What a strange question to ask.

    Who was the chief Minister -***- Home Minister in 2002? Where does the buck stop? No body is suggesting that Modi himself was on the streets killing people.

    One wrong does not justify another. So stop giving other examples. All riots are horrific and should have not happened in the first place. I condemn the Congress government and then the Chief Minister -Sudhakar Naik – for allowing 1992-93 riots in Mumbai to fester for so long. Let us see you condemning the BJP government for 2002. Will you? I am waiting

    By the way, the Congress governments have done numerous things which are unacceptable, but why does the BJP has to imitate and make the same mistakes? Isn’t it a party with a difference? Why does it want to be a B-team of the Congress? It is obvious that the people do not want a B-team to govern them, when a better team is available – A-team. Good luck.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Please read *** as plus. Somehow the HT editing software was not able to correctly read plus.

    Shiuli Reply:

    If Modi is held responsible for 2002 riots in Gujrat, as he was the head of the state, then now why in CWG scam only Kalamdi held resposible and not the CM of Delhi?

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shiuli

    There is no if, he was responsible.

    I also wish more heads roll in the CWG scam and the spectrum scam too. At least, the Central government has started making some moves to hold people responsible, one only hopes that they are taken to their logical conclusions.

    kunal Reply:

    Just because he was the CM and the Home Minister doesn’t mean he was at fault of killing 1200 civilians. It has been alleged that he did nothing, it hasn’t been proven yet.

    Even if Modi is guilty and even if he would have acted and stopped the mob, it would have just flared up another day. The cops can do nothing, when there is widespread anger amongst lakhs of HIndus. But that’s another story.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Kunal

    One must compliment you for the lengths you will go to defend your hero with one justification after another (however bizarre).

    That is precisely the point. He did nothing or chose not to do anything or was he allegedly complicit. You have forgotten one small fact., though The oaths taken by people when taking up a public office. Take the trouble of reading the oath taken by your hero.

    Another bizarre argument (flared up another day). You must be a follower of the dictum – kal kare so aaj kar , aaj kare to ab. Any more ‘brilliant’ arguments in his defence?

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Reply:

    @ Satish
    Beware the confusion between correctness & intelligibility. Part of conventional wisdom favours things that can be explained rather instantly and “in a nutshell”- in many circles it is considered law. What is easy to conceive is clear to express. In the case of Modi Factor, the moment we have to defame him we press the button Godhra. But if for MMS & Co. imagine how many buttons one needs to press! And Satish, you talk about logical conclusions, have there ever been any conclusion to the problems faced by MMS & Co. so far?

  • Candor

    World over, major commodities trades exported are set up close to gateway ports. Indians had business scattered all over India due to regional sentiments and now, to compete internationally, businessmen are forced to bring in their units close to gateway ports states and Gujarat is not only one state benefited but large scale industries are being set up in MP and other areas close to gateway ports. Modi can be credited if they are really giving speedy clearances for the projects. However, Gujaratis too are regionalistic and do not like to mingle with other state people except business. So, most of non-Gujarati people feel them foreigners in Gujarat. Both Modi and Gujaratis need to broaden their thinking to think as Indians than Gujaratis.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    This is probably not true , Gujratis are very welcoming people , far more than other states , BUT THEY DONT LIKE MUSLIMS .

    [Reply]

  • mohan

    modi,being the chief minister,was supposed to uphold the constitutional rights of his citizens during the riot..he failed miserably and that was deliberate ..that is the point zia bringing up..a word of regret from modi will change drastically the negative perception about him .otherwise he will be remembered for ever as a cruel ruler ..no matter how he will change the economy of gujrat.
    a very good article zia..

    [Reply]

    PRadeep Reply:

    Do you people think, you can change the situations in India just by sitting in a AC room and playing your fingers on keyboard.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    LOL. Do you type using your toes?

    [Reply]

    PRadeep Reply:

    f

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Precisely, but his supporters and fans are in denial to accept what you have written. They follow a simple rule vis-a-vis Modi – hear no evil, see no evil and talk no evil. Everything is hunky-dory.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    I totally agree with you.

    [Reply]

  • Nurul Aziz Khan

    Gentlemen ,

    I have carefully read the opinions expressed by every individual.
    It is important that when we are discussing serious issues like National Development and policies (for example) we must not be carried away by emotions . No body can deny that Gujarat has progressed during the past two decades. The credit for the develoment goes to the long term polocies rather than any individual . Indeed Narendra Modi has done a good job on develomental front but he need to improve on human front .

    [Reply]

  • roger

    ms, zia, what about kashmiri pandits,they hv been butchered and killed in thousands, more than 10 lakh pandits have been thrown out of the valley, nobody talks about them, i strongly condemn your views.

    [Reply]

  • Champak

    Everybody is talking about 2002 riots in Gujarat, but nobody is talking about riots took place before Godhara. In all previous riots happened in Gujarat the number of hindus died were many more than of muslims, but nobody is still bothered about it. I suggest people like you not to comment about Gujarat and mind your own business. Mr. Zia you must write about pandits suffering from muslims attacks in Kashmir and in NaPakistan.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Champak.

    Riots is used by the RSS as a matter of policy. Its function is to frighten Hindus and consolidate that vote bank.

    [Reply]

  • ANIL

    Those who work with honestly and transparency and take pride in their work, they have reason to be happier under Modi’s rule. Those who have earning other then what they state may have good reason to work against Modi since they will end up earning less if they have to work under Modi. It is understandable why some in media still view Modi with suspicion.

    [Reply]

  • http://yahoo Raunak

    I sincerely request all to support MODI JEE & let him take the charge of India. He is surely the true Statesman India has ever produced.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raunak

    If you sincerely believe that Modi is a statesman, then I am afraid you do not know the meaning of the word.

    Modi is a crypto fascist.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Look who is talking..follower of Osama..

    [Reply]

  • B.V.SHENOY

    Zia, you have pilloried Narendra Modi for the 2002 riots without the slightest regard to the history of riots in Gujarat or the nature of the riots. Please find time to read what Gandhiji had to say to the riot affected in 1928!

    The following are the exact words of Gandhiji in Young India (October 11, 1928):

    “Two weeks ago I wrote in ‘Navajivan‘ a note on the tragedy in Godhra, where Shri Purshottam Shah bravely met his death at the hands of his assailants and gave my note the heading Hindu Muslim Fight in Godhra. Several Hindus did not like the heading and addressed angry letters asking me to correct it (for it was a one sided fight). I found it impossible to accede to their demand. Whether there is one victim or more, whether there is a free fight between the two communities, or whether one assumes the offensive and the other simply suffers, I should describe the event as a fight if the whole series of happenings were the result of a state of war between the two communities. Whether in Godhra or in other places, there is today a state of war between the two communities. Fortunately, the countryside is still free from the war fever (no longer now) which is mainly confined to towns and cities, where, in some form or other fighting is continually going on. Even the correspondents who have written to me about Godhra do not seem to deny the fact that the happenings arose out of the communal antagonisms that existed there.

    “If the correspondents had simply addressed themselves to the heading, I should have satisfied myself with writing to them privately and written nothing in Navjivan about it. But there are other letters in which the correspondents have vented their ire on different counts. A volunteer from Ahmedabad who had been to Godhra writes:

    ‘You say that you must be silent over these quarrels. Why were you not silent over the Khilafat, and why did you exhort us to join the Muslims? Why are you not silent about your principles of Ahimsa? How can you justify your silence when the two communities are running at each others throats and Hindus are being crushed to atoms. How does Ahimsa come there? I invite your attention to two cases:

    ‘A Hindu shopkeeper thus complained to me: Musalmans purchase bags of rice from my shop, often never paying for them. I cannot insist on payment, for fear of their looting my godowns. I have, therefore, to make an involuntary gift of about 50 to 70 maunds of rice every month?’

    “Others complained: ‘Musalmans invade our quarters and insult our women in our presence, and we have to sit still. If we dare to protest we are done for. We dare not even lodge a complaint against them.’

    “What would you advise in such cases? How would you bring your Ahimsa into play? Or , even here you would prefer to remain silent!

    “These and similar other questions have been answered in these pages over and over again, but as they are still being raised, I had better explain my views once more at the risk of repetition.

    “Ahimsa is not the way of the timid or the cowardly. It is the way of the brave ready to face death. He who perishes sword in hand is no doubt brave, but he who faces death without raising his little finger is braver. But he who surrenders his rice bags for fear of being beaten is a coward and no votary of Ahimsa. He is innocent of Ahimsa. He, who for fear of being beaten, suffers the women of his household to be insulted is not manly, but just the reverse. He is fit neither to be a husband nor a father, nor a brother. Such people have no right to complain …” (extract from ‘To the Hindus and Muslims‘, a collection of articles by Gandhiji from Young India)”

    [Reply]

  • Srikanth

    George Bush and tony blair has killed indirectly thousands of Iraqis against war against terror with Un sanctions and support and fooled everybody and nobody questions them including international court after them found nothing in Iraq on weopan of mass distruction and he branded as honourable man but so called seculiar indians with intellectual pretension critizises Modi . I think the country like India require people like Modi and not american leader certificate that Modi is commual and Isreali leaders are right in killing innocent Palestine.
    Srikanth

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Srikanth, geopolitics or reality or truth HURTS

    [Reply]

  • http://www.hindustantimes.com Tejas

    That Modi is responsible for the phenomenal development in Gujarat is a widely accepted fact. That Modi is responsible for Gujarat riots is not proved yet. And if you blame Modi for creating delay in justice, you have to blame Congress which has ruled most of the time after independence, for not evolving proper legal system.
    And one more thing, if Modi can be blamed for the death of about a thousand Muslims, Congress has certainly, very certainly, very very certainly caused death of millions of Muslims by keeping the people of the country in abject poverty. A poor nation in 1947, India is now one of the poorest nations in the world. It has slipped down in poverty ranking since 1947 and god only knows how many million Muslims have died due to poverty. My question to so called humanitarians and liberals: How can you pardon Congress for this, just because it killed Hindus also by poverty? Killing Muslims can be justified if Hindus are also killed?

    [Reply]

  • Raghavendra

    Mr Zia ul haq

    you said USA has not lifted travel bar on MODI to visit that country? do you honestly feel america has the moral right to ban anybody in this world? dont you know america’s track record when it comes to killing lakhs of innocent people around th world?those who killed lakhs of RED INDIANS and who till date prosecute BLACKS in their own country just dont have the right to preach morality to anybody.

    mr Haq will people like you accept Narendra Modi if america approves him?whether america approves Modi or not . most vital thing is whether people of indian approve him is the big thing not anybody else.

    one more thing Mr HAQ no amount of oppostition from MUSLIMS . CHRISTIANS can stop MODI from becoming a national leader if he gets support of MAJORITY community in INDIA.no amount of opposition from people like you will be of any use.

    you will not like what i just said but what i said will always remain a truth.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    The Zia kind of muslims curse Amrika with all their hearts but when it serves them (in Modi’s case), they present Amrika as paragon of virtues.
    This is nothing but opportunist thinking.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @rajeev, read the book by Atish taseer titled “Stranger to history”. there is a passage whereAtish engages a bearded geezer in Istanbul. He says Muslims are not against not non muslim living with them it is only that NON MUSLIMS HAVE TO BE UNDER MUSLIM RULE.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Have you read this book.

    “The foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e., of the Hindu nation and must loose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment — not even citizen’s rights. There is, at least, should be, no other course for them to adopt. We are an old nation; let us deal, as old nations ought to and do deal, with the foreign races, who have chosen to live in our country”.

    – Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar’s, We or Our Nationhood Defined

  • raj

    The Nazis set up the SdA (Beauty of Work) to help Germans see dignity in work. They abolished trade unions and gave more power to the industrialists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front
    —Employers could demand more of their workers, while at the same time workers were given increased security of work and increasingly enrolled into social security programmes for workers. The organisation, by its own definition, combated capitalism, liberalism, but also revolution against the factory owners and the national socialist state. The DAF however did openly prefer to have large companies nationalised by the German state, instead of privately owned companies.
    – DAF gave them in repaying for their absolute loyalty. – another secret for workmanship — seems like win win situation.
    — just to disgrace modi, don’t end up giving stupid examples

    [Reply]

  • raj

    KdF provided affordable leisure activities such as concerts, plays, libraries, day trips and holidays

    — where does modi provide these. how desparate to bring in hitler.
    — once you bring in nazi, hitler, holocust, you loose the plot. & your agenda is very clear.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    As Johnson Kozhingal stated “poverty is the worst violence” quoting Mahathmaji. No recent leader has done as much as Modi to alleviate poverty in India.. Just imagine — where will UP be if Modi were the chief minister (even if we take for granted he would have killed 3000 Muslims there, an argument bound to come from the psuedoseculars).

    To compare Modi to Nazism and Hitler is imagination going wild; in fact giving a reason to a few that he should have done more.

    Psuedos tal about the 1000 deaths. Nobody talks about the absence of constant bleeding since then. Nobody talks about the stability and peace since then. However callous it may be, it is only a small price to pay — yes, I understand for the affected f amilies it is the biggest loss. We cannot get boggled down in micros and ignore macros.

    No leader will stand in the way of a passionate and mad populace. Modis crime was that he did not stand in the way. Even if he stood in the way, results would not have been different. Mob psychology is such.

    Zia was not given visa to enter USA. Does that make Zia a murderer?

    seta side the 1000 killings, and just imagine, where India will be if all states had a Modi as their CMs? If India had a MOdi as its PM? Woould CWG scandal have happened, would Spectrum have happened.? Would we have grown 12% instead of 9%? How many would have been lifted out of poverty?

    If the 1000 killings prevented the future riots and killings for the next twenty years, I say, it is worth it. It is a fact that there was no violence after that. It is afact that Muslims from other states are settling in Gujrat.

    Modi will live with what he did or what he could have done during the riots. Our old books talk about several instances when the Gurus and Gods looked the otherway. Bhishma did not do anything when Draupadi was being disrobbed by Dushasan. Not only he did not do anything; he even gave a rationale. An Arjuna who did not want to do any killing was persuaded by the God Hinself to kill.

    Equitable growth is the best antidote against violence. Modi has accomplished this in Gujrat.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    The onus of moving on should not lie on Muslims alone.
    so what should non muslims (kaffirs) do…
    tell me more about this , muslims moving, but non muslims not moving as you mentioned.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    That sent Muslims, who saw the remarks as endorsing Modi, gunning for the cleric’s scalp.
    nice twist.
    truth is – his views are different from secularist, – no victim hood, so as usual muslims shut him down.
    ——– freedom of speech as long as we like it.
    — actually you should be spending your energy expanding his views, rather than going back to victim hood, & keep modi torch burning forever….

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Raj, good point — he should ahve taken Vaisnavt’s point and expanded and brought in others; recognizing that a wrong was done eitehr with hi s knowledge or not. But no, burn the torch for ever and let all be damned..

    Secularists like victmhood -and Muslims (not all) blame theit problems on Zionists, America, Hindus (or Hindu brahmins or Hindu brahmins and baniyas),mosaad, RAW……

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    Investors did not start flocking to Gujarat this year or last year. They have been doing so from past few years. Gujarat literacy and economic growth is also not very recent (earlier it was noted by Kalam). It has been happening since years. Then how come suddenly many journalists have started talking about Gujarat’s advancement and also dusting out the old Godhra file (which again, we have not forgotten) to remind us about the tyranny of Modi rule. (Couple of weeks ago, Sunitha Aron came out with the same theme, except she did not criticise Modi being silent).

    A statement made by Deoband Maulana Gulam Mohammad Vastanvi, is creating ripples among “secular community” of India. They would not have mind, if anyone else had spoken about this modern day Hitler. But a MUSLIM MAULVI ??? They have been really hurt by this. All these days, they have been the champions of this relentless and selfless fight for the welfare of this victimised community. But now head of these victims himself is deserting them by stating the obvious “everyone are progressing in Gujarat”. Why should he have spoken about it, even if it were to be a fact? Isn’t that heart breaking? For their console, let me play Saigal’s song. Jab dil hi toot gaya ..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    So let me distil the points you make.

    1. The prosperity of Gujarat started long before Modi, took over the reins of Gujarat. So this prosperity can not all be attributed to Mr Modi, but some undoubtedly can.

    2. The prosperity is secular in its effect, in other words, Guajarati Muslims are also benefiting from this. That can only be good news. Evidence shows, when prosperity is abundantly available, RELIGION, can often become irrelevant.

    If the above is what you meant then I would have no hesitations from accepting the above.

    However, some of the charges against Modi, vis-a-vis, his communal outlook, reliance on violence to forward political agenda and his prosecution of discriminatory policies, still stand.

    Most of the Muslim population in Gujarat, as elsewhere, is participating in the Private Sector, which is not entirely in the control of Mr Modi.

    Do you have any stats or evidence of Muslim prosperity in the Public/State sector? If you do, I hope you will not mind sharing it.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Modi has created an environment for private sector to invest, create jobs, improve the livelihood. So, people, including Muslims, from other impoverished states are moving into Gujrat.

    “reliance on violence to forge a political agenda” — are you stating that he is constantly into violence to further agenda, or are you talking about the “1000 or 750 Muslim (who actres about the 250 hindus”" massacre. What discriminatory policies are he pursuing?

    Gujrat’s growth, under Modi, has been spectacular , almost 3 times during the prior congress govt. It is a pity that others are not copying the Gujrat model (minus killings of course!) . It is a pity that West Bengal, which is languishing with poverty and butted growth, did not tke advantage of the Nano investment; and Modi could provide the neded license etc in two days.
    Look at any mmetrics – roads built, clean water facilities, schools and colleges, number of jobs.. Congress should be ashamed, so also a majority of the chief ministers. He may be the only CM who has not stolen a single rupee from the state treasury.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    If DEVELOPMENT is the SOLE criteria, then it could be argued that the Chinese formula has delivered greater dividends than the Gujarat Formula did.

    However, the Chinese Formula of growth came along with a totalitarian regime.

    I am sure we do not want that.

    Growth yes, communal violence no.

    Rajeev Reply:

    You must have seen that of late Pakistan has become more vocal and to an extent agressive in dealing with India. Is Indian govt. (espacially Rahul Baba) helping pakistan to come to table from the position of strength? if you look at the events, it looks like UPA govt. strengthened pakistani hands so that so-called peace talks (surrendering Kashmir to Pak) can resume.
    Here are the events-
    1. 26/11 happens. The public rage forces pro-pakistani UPA govt. to stall the peace talks.
    2. Our PM tries all kinds of tricks to start the talk. The shameless surrender at Sharm-al-Sheikh was one such attempt.
    3. The Indian public didn’t buy Manmohan’s Sharm-al-Sheikh logic to keeping talks and terrorism separate. He was embarrassed and made to eat his words.
    4. PM under the guidance of Rahul and Diggi try to fix opposition so that there is no opposition to their surrender to pakistan.
    5. They (Rahul-Diggi) come up with ‘RSS-Terror’ (Hindu terror) theory to put BJP on mat and also help pakistan to revive itself.
    6. NIA under the instructions from Rahul weaves intricate theory of RSS terror, giving pakistan Samjhauta Danda to beat India with.
    7. Rahul and Diggi also give kind of clean chit to ISI-LeT-ISI on 26/11.
    8. India’s case weakens on 26/11 whereas pakistan’s case on Samjhauta gets strengthened.
    9. Now we are begging pakistan to talk with us and we are giving all kinds of gurantees that we will not only bury 26/11 but also implicate RSS on all terror activities.

    The congress by doing this has achieved following-
    1. Consolidated its muslim vote bank.
    2. Appeased pakistan thus helping MMS fulfilling his dream of giving kashmir to pak.
    3. Isolate and discredit RSS thus BJP.
    4. Put a permanent terrorist tag on Hindus (with no evidence whatsoever).
    5. Ease muslims on terror tag and assure them that next time if they do bomb blasts, UPA will look other way and work on to implicate hindus.

    It’s time people understand that this congress is not congress of Gandhi (real one) but its congress of dictator Indira gandhi and fascist Sonia gandhi.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rajeev

    While many of your pointers indeed are and may be true; a few are baseless allegation , such as MMS always wante dto give Kashmir away..

    Congress does not know what is the tipping point. It will be to their detriment if they play with fire. As you know there are only five states where congress rules.. All the bye elections have been lost. I do not think Muslims are going to vote for them..They will vote like they voted in bihar. No more going back in time.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    When I say “MMS always wanted to give Kashmir away”, I am trying to point towards his ‘bending backward’ attitude with pakistan.
    If we ever loose kashmir, it will be solely because of Congress and if we give MMS one more term, kashmir will be given away to pakistan on a platter.
    MMS is only loyal to his master Sonia not India.

    RajX Reply:

    “Ravi”, you should not throw dirt at Modi just because you don’t like him. That’s not The dharmic way. It may be the Way of the arabized but it is definitely not the dharmic way. You lie when you say
    “The prosperity of Gujarat started long before Modi”

    No one said that gujrat was a poor state before Modi came in. The point being made is that under his administration, the economic growth in gujrat has been spectacular and significantly better than before. Its not just economic growth but general efficiency and decrease in govt corruption is attributed to Modi.

    Even a indian Muslim can follow the dharmic way. Arabization, on the other hand, is a path to oblivion in terms of your indian identity.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    Modi, vis-a-vis, his communal outlook, reliance on violence to forward political agenda and his prosecution of discriminatory policies, still stand.
    — more info / proof is welcome, don’t be stingy with truth
    communal outlook
    reliance on violence
    prosecution of discriminatory policies — you mean govt policies…. that’s news

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Prosperity of Gujarat is mainly due to enterprising nature of Gujaratis. But corruption less government aids prosperity. I do not have any statistics on Private/Public sectors. These days, we hardly count on public sector contribution for state’s prosperity. When it comes to private sector, it is well known how Gujarat pose least hurdles for private enterprise.

    The second point you mention, “prosperity is secular which makes religion irrelevant” is the key thing. To me, anyone who thinks about development without differentiating is secular, the list will not exclude Modi, because of riots. Compare this http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/politics/gujarat-continues-drive-to-demolish-illegal-temples_100121183.html with this http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Faced-with-protests-CM-pledges-to-rebuild-mosque/articleshow/7288565.cms
    (By the way, before this incidence there was also a temple demolished, for which there were no apologies).

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    How and why Modi was refused U.S. Visa.

    In February 2005 Narendra Modi was invited to Florida to address the Asian-American Hotel Owners Association. (This invitation gives a good idea of the surreal mixture of pro business politics and violence that characterizes the BJP, especially Gujurat.) He accepted. Anticipating that there might be some trouble, he applied for a diplomatic visa, although he already had a tourist visa. Meanwhile, resistance mobilized. Concerned academics signed a petition describing Modi’s role in the violence and asking the State Department not to grant him a visa. U.S. Hindu groups also wrote letters of protest and planned demonstrations in various cities to coincide with his visit to Florida.

    On March 15 Congressman John Coonyers (Democrat from Michigan) submitted a House Resolution cosponsored by Congressman Joe Pitts (Republican from Pennsyvania) condemning the conduct of Modi in inciting religious persecution in Gujurat. The resolution referred to the condemnation in the U.S. State Department’s Religious Freedom Report, to the admonition of Modi by the Indian Supreme Court for “complacency and actions in connection with the attacks on non-Hindu groups”, and to the finding by India’s National Human Rights Commission that there was “evidence of premeditation in the killings of non-Hindu groups, complicity by Gujurat State government officials, and police inaction in the midst of attacks on Muslims and Christians.” Significantly, it also referred more generally to the role of Modi and his government in “promoting the attitudes of racial supremacy, racial hatred, and the legacy of Nazism through his government’s support of school textbooks in which Nazism is glorified” and to the finding (by the U.S. State Department) that Modi revised high school textbooks to describe Hitler’s “’charismatic personality’” and the ‘achievements’ of Nazism. Independently, Pitts wrote a letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (co-signed by various others), asking the State Department to deny Modi a visa.

    To almost everyone’s surprise, on March 19 the State Department denied Modi a diplomatic visa and revoked his tourist visa. …..

    The outcome of the Modi case shows that there is by now a broad consensus that the Gujarat violence was a form of ethnic cleansing, that it was in many respects premeditated, and that it was carried out with the complicity of state government and officers of the law.

    By: Martha Nussbaum, The Clash Within, Pages 50, 51.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    US congress routinely, and with all the 535 members voting for, passes declarations and resolutions indicating Israel has not done anything wrong,a nd it is Palestinians’ problem that they are instigating. Israel is the only issue on which all the 535 mebers agree irrespective of republican/democrat. They do not unite on any other issues.

    So, if you take this US censure as the Godsend, you have also to take that Israel is pristine rose.

    And since when is this new ravi rule that India has to conduct its business per what the US congress says?

    Text books unlike many other things (like whether Modi was involved in killings) are public. Can you extract a page or refernce in Gujrat text books that glorifies Nazism and Hitler.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I am not suggesting that U.S. is consistant in its foriegn policy, it is’nt and it has supported some extremely dodgy dictators in the past and still does. When I was young, it supported L.K.Advani against Socialist Nehru.

    However, this was designed to provide a view from outside of India, from people who are neither Indian Congress or BJP/RSS.

    My impression is that you are not physically handicapped, I am sure you can extract any relevant chapters from Gujurat History text books, should you feel the need.

    For me the fact that an eminent professor, in a learned book, says that Gujurati History Books glorify Hitler is proof enough. I will take her word over yours any day.

    The refernce is “”Report of the Concerned Citizens” Tribunal”. ..www.sabrang.com

    Lets do some count here, in the past you have rubbished:

    1. Wendy Doniger – An eminent Historian and a Professor.

    2. Martha Nussbaum – An eminet Philosopher and a Professor.

    3. Wikileaks.

    4. The U.S. Congress.

    All this is because what these people say does not fit with your global view.

    Now go ahead and call me a Muslim, etc etc.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    You have your world view and I have my world view. Only history will tell which will eb a surviving world view.

    The energy you spend on blackwashing Modi and Hindus of India could better be spend on educating your fellow Muslims and getting them out of tehir uneducated state. There are no Hindus in otehr M uslim countries, and all of them are doing pretty bad.

    Educate them, give them hope.. Dont bark on Jews, Hindus, Modi, Brahmins, Caste etc for their plight.

    I do not condiser Wendy or MArtha as Eminent Professors. They are professors, like millions of otehr professors. Now that is my opinion. And I have attended their meetings where they were trying miserably to put everything on teh BJP and RSs feet, even when BJP or its predecessor had only one MP in Parliament, Atal Behari Vajpayee.

    And I maaintain you are a Muslim Nothing wrong with that. Muslims are as equal citizens with all the rights constitution provides; I do strongly endorse they are India’s children, not any foreign children. I also believe many of them are misguided by the caliphate and Umma.

    raj Reply:

    an eminent professor, in a learned book, says
    — this is what supreme court had to say about your secular eminent proffesors

    How Allahabad HC exposed ‘experts’ espousing Masjid cause
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Allahabad-HC-exposed-experts-espousing-Masjid-cause/articleshow/6716643.cms#ixzz1DMCXTj2B

    NEW DELHI: The role played by “independent experts” — historians and archaeologists who appeared on behalf of the Waqf Board to support its claim — has come in for criticism by one of the Allahabad High Court judges in the Ayodhya verdict.

    While the special bench of three judges unanimously dismissed objections raised by the experts to the presence of a temple, it was Justice Sudhir Agarwal who put their claims to extended judicial scrutiny.

    Most of these experts deposed twice. Before the ASI excavations, they said there was no temple beneath the mosque and, after the site had been dug up, they claimed what was unearthed was a mosque or a stupa. During lengthy cross-examination spread over several pages and recorded by Justice Agarwal, the historians and experts were subjected to pointed queries about their expertise, background and basis for their opinions.

    To the court’s astonishment, some who had written signed articles and issued pamphlets, found themselves withering under scrutiny and the judge said they were displaying an “ostrich-like attitude” to facts.

    He also pointed out how the independent witnesses were all connected — one had done a PhD under the other, another had contributed an article to a book penned by a witness.

    Some instances underlined by the judge are: Suvira Jaiswal deposed “whatever knowledge I gained with respect
    to disputed site is based on newspaper reports or what others told” (other experts). She said she prepared a report on the Babri dispute “after reading newspaper reports and on basis of discussions with medieval history expert in my department.” Supriya Verma, another expert who challenged the ASI excavations, had not
    read the ground penetration radar survey report that led the court to order an excavation. She did her PhD under another expert Shireen F Ratnagar.

    Verma and Jaya Menon alleged that pillar bases at the excavated site had been planted but HC found they were not present at the time the actual excavation took place.

    Archaeologist Shereen F Ratnagar has written the “introduction” to the book of another expert who deposed, Professor Mandal. She admitted she had no field experience.

    “Normally, courts do not make adverse comments on the deposition of a witness and suffice it to consider whether it is credible or not, but we find it difficult to resist ourselves in this particular case considering the sensitivity and nature of dispute and also the reckless and irresponsible kind of statements…” the judge has noted.

    He said opinions had been offered without making a proper investigation, research or study in the subject. The judge said he was “startled and puzzled” by contradictory statements. When expert witness Suraj Bhan deposed on the Babri mosque, the weight of his evidence was contradicted by anotherexpert for Muslim parties, Shirin Musavi, who told the court that Bhan “is an archaeologist and not an expert on medieval history”.

    Justice Agarwal referred to signed statements issued by experts and noted that “instead of helping in making a cordial atmosphere it tends to create more complications, conflict and controversy.” He pointed out that experts carry weight with public opinion. “One cannot say that though I had made a statement but I am not responsible for its authenticity since it is not based on my study or research but what I have learnt from what others have uttered,” Justice Aggarwal has said, emphasising the need for thorough original research before concurring with what someone else has claimed.

    raj Reply:

    All this is because what these people say does not fit with your global view.
    — no, its their double standards.
    killing americans = terrorist,
    killing other = militants, and can find 1001 reason to justify & victims asked for it.
    chk for balance….

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I agree that our views of the world are world apart, sorry for the pun.

    I think we have been here before.

    I will from now on not discuss anything with you personally, I see no point in it.

    If I am a Muslim then you are a Fascist.

  • D Mishra, UK

    For the Pakistanis on this forum or ppl like Ravi who claim to be Hindus (I cannot prove / disprove it) but just attack Hinduism in an illogically obsessive way I quote the words of Rahim, an Indian muslim above-

    … ” this is an irony that a common gujrati muslim has left the past behind and moved on….but the rest of so-called liberals, who are actually extremists are still burning the fire and are ready to spark communal riot – this applies to both hindu and muslim religious or psudo-liberal people……Spare Gujrat and let us develop……
    @ Ravi…your comments are clear indication why hindus cry foul for being neglected….for it is people like who dont know the meaning of unity in diversity….spewing venom against own religion to get label of liberal is idiotic…… ”

    How nice that the best comment in this article has come from a sensible Gujrati muslim?
    My only question to Ravi, Diggy, Antulay, Amar Singh, Mulayam Yadav etc- what if the muslims had not burnt 59 innocent hindu pilgrims? Would’nt that have been nice?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra

    I suggest you re read what you have just written and ask your self the question, where is the logic in it.

    Do you think Modi and RSS believe in Unity in Diversity.

    So you think Muslims burnt 59 Hindus. Who told you that, or is it that you find your own prejudices as being the TRUTH and other peoples TRUTH as their prejudices.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    “Ravi”, your attempt to rewrite history is pathetic. Your next conspiracy theory would be that the “Zionist” burnt the Hindus in godhra to provoke communal riots. Maybe you should retain your screen name as your real name and live in Pakistan for a month as a Hindu “Ravi” and see how you are treated. You don’t have to hide behind Hindu names. SRK or Amir khan didn’t and they seem to be doing fine.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    SRK or Amir Khan are doing fine because they almost given up being a Muslim, I am real sense……sudo Muslims to appease the majority….

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    So all successful Indian Muslims are not Muslims??? Azim Premji, Dr Abdul Kalam, the numerous movie khans, AR Rehman , the oscar winner, rasul pookutty the oscar winner, the hamdard group , ciplas Yusuf, the bhatkals, Antulay, etc are not Muslims and they ahd to leave their Msulimness – where?

    Rehman, born as Dileep Kumar, as the son of music maestro Shekhar, could flourish in India. Were he born as a Muslim in PAkistan he would have never won oscar. Were he born as a Muslim and converted to hinduism, he would have been killed.

    So much for your fr– pious pure land of Muslims. What has that brought to you man? That you are the laughing stock of the world? That your boys acnnot travel anywhere? That your boys are desperate to meet their aspirations in a cpountry ruoled by the 200 feudal landlords? Dont even get me going on your fru..blasphemy or anti blasphemy law..

    raj Reply:

    So you think Muslims burnt 59 Hindus. Who told you that
    — the same liberal papers which you quote from. so what do you think, who killed them.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    A fire that started from a cooking stove taken into the train.

    However, that may not fit into you jaundiced view.

    ram autar Reply:

    So you think Muslims burnt 59 Hindus. Who told you that

    why they will burn the train.spiritual fascism and intellectual goondaism are 2qw gignatic octopuses consuming the very vital of society.riots was planned that was only way to win election.give mew the names of victims.

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra

    Here is an example of Unity in Diversity.

    “The foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e., of the Hindu nation and must loose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment — not even citizen’s rights. There is, at least, should be, no other course for them to adopt. We are an old nation; let us deal, as old nations ought to and do deal, with the foreign races, who have chosen to live in our country”.

    – Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar’s, We or Our Nationhood Defined

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    So, a crackpots book says blah blah — So what? You can write a book and criticize this, or write another set of absurdities. Deoband school comes up with stupid fatwa every day.. at least Golwalker is dead and gone .. Deoband is a living organization whose poliies and pronouncements dicatte the lifestyle of many Muslims. Golwalkkers book may have followers, but what is your point? Listen, if all Hindus were like Muslims, RSS will be ruling India for the last sixty years. Let me tell you, this constant harping bu secularists will make this happen, not Golwalker’s book.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Ravi, my dear friend, why on earth do you quote Gowalkar whatshisname, who the hell cares about him. I spent 35 years in India, came from a mohalla which was Jan Sanghi, but the ppl we admired were Vajpayee. Why this infantile obsession with quoting Govalkar, Manusmriti, brahminical discrimination in the older days. I had never heard of them in India.

    You keep moronically going on about the evils of hindu society. Have you ever thought about the evils in Islamic or African societies? With a name ike Ravi, how fairly will you be treated in Uganda or Somalia? Here in UK, HINDUS AND SIKHS are perhaps the most respected minority. For the last 18 years, Indian hindus and Sikhs, along with the Chinese regularly top the GCSE AND A level results, always outperforming the whites, while sadly the Pak students are bottom of the pile with the afro-caribean boys.

    Buddy, if you really are a hindu, then be proud of who you are. The only 3 towns in UK which have a Indian minority – Southall, Wembley and Leicester- are very peaceful, free of poverty and crime free, while the Pak dominated areas- Oldham, Manchester, Leeds, etc have all had riots.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra

    Gowalkar is the Fountan Head of RSS and Spiritual Guru of Modi. I suggest you have a need to spend some years in India.

    The obsession is because those are the texts which form the H I N D U R I G H T S self preception and a kind of national identity.

    I am ver my much aware of evils of Islamic society and other socities, there are scores of people here who do nothing else but mention them. I provide the balance by pointing out the our own Hindu society is far from perfect and Modi is the largest blot on it.

    Buddy if you are really a man, then you should have no difficulty in accepting me as a Hindu, but are not are you. You are a cretin.

    Burnley, Oldham, Preston, Dewsbury, Bradford, and Halifax are also very peaceful.

    There were riots in London, Bristol, and Southall. Blair Peaqch died in a riot and he died in Southall…

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    I provide the balance by pointing out the our own Hindu society is far from perfect and Modi is the largest blot on it.
    —- how easy to forget train burning. so its no incident. i think you wanted to write this

    i provide the balance by pointing out the our own Muslim society is far from perfect and Train burning is the lartgest blot on it.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @raj, again well done

  • D Mishra, UK

    sorry, post cut off, contd-

    Indians sikhs and hindus are in a significant minority only in Southall, Leicester and Wembley. The English love going there for the festivals like Diwali and for eating out and for tourism to lovely temples like the one in Neasden ( 1 mile from Wembley). Indians are loved and admired- Selfridges, Harrods and even supermarket like Tescoes regularly do diwali and bollywood theme weeks.

    The riot that Ravi mentioned in Southall leading to Peach’s killing was NOTHING to do with Indians, it was a black vs white riot.

    Fact- For the last 20 odd years, Indian hindus and Sikhs, along with the Chinese regularly top the GCSE AND A level results, always outperforming the whites, while sadly the Pak students are bottom of the pile with the afro-caribean boys.

    Ravi forget all else, pl reply to this fact. Why does it happen.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra.

    Here is the response you so politely requested.

    You are SPECTACULARLY wrong about the nature of SOUTHALL riots. The riots were due to National Front marching in Southall. National front was anti immigration, all immigration, not just Blacks. The Black population in Southall was and is negligable.

    The Brixton and Nottinghill riots could be classed as White V Black riots, but the Southall one is not. No Muslims were involved in any of these riots. So get that out of your thinking.

    Absolutely agree that many a white people go and ENJOY themselves in areas such as Rusholm in Manchester, Wemble, Brick-Lane, Brixton, Notting Hill and Southall in London. The contemporary community relations in England are markedly different from those heady days of 1970s.

    With respect to Education. No arguement, it has been proven time and again that the Hindu community achieves consistantly higher educational achievemnents than their counterparts among the Pakistani and Bangladeshi commuinty. Where I would argue with you is the reasons undelying this underachievement of Pakistani and Bangaldeshi communities.

    Religion is not the only, or even the principal contributing factor here. Whils most Hindus in Wembley and in Liecester have come via East Africa, they were already wired into the value of education. Whilst Sylheti and Mirpuri’s which make the bulk of Pakistani and Bangaldeshi populations are from poorer and backward communities. These children are a generation or two behind their Hindu counterparts and I am of a firm opinion that they will soon avail of the educational opportunities presented to them and will in time progress just as the Hindu community has done. The signs are visible, should you choose to see them.

    Jai Hind

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Prime Minister Cameron is “after” the Muslims; he has said that UK obsesion with “multiculturalism” has created Muslim terrorists and Muslim ghettos like Odham, leeds.

    Ravi, on education, Hindus in India did not come from East Africa, so your east africa rationale is unnecessary — They have been doing well in education, even under Mughals or British, or fotr that maytter time immemorial (you will say only a few could do that).. Muslims, at least in the recent history of 700 years, have not.

    Just for curiosity,what signs are there that make you optimistic about an educational achievement by Muslims in UK?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Gujarat is now well into its third month of violence. Communalism Combat published a comprehensive report of the situation in April. According to its estimate, based on painstaking research, the death toll is at least 2000, economic losses among Muslims amount to Rs. 3500 crores, and more than 270 mosques and dargahs have been reduced to rubble. Of course, the death toll is necessarily underrated, since very large numbers of corpses were burnt to ashes after the killings. After April, moreover, there have been many more flare-ups, more of destruction and terror. What is going on there, judging from the nature of selected targets of violence, is clearly a process of ethnic cleansing, an elimination of the cultural, economic and demographic presence of the Muslim.

    More important than the statistics of loss, is the nature of terror, for violence now consists of public acts of sadism that have been missing from earlier histories of carnage in our country. Looked at dispassionately, we have exceeded the achievements of Nazi terror, Bosnian atrocities, our own Partition violence – if not in scale or numbers, then in the intensity of torture, the sheer plurality and innovativeness in forms of cruelty. It is as if the most gruesome elements from all the annals of mass destruction have been pulled together to form a whole that is Gujarat today.

    If Nazism needed to shroud its evil behind impenetrable concentration camps and gas chambers, the Gujarat genocide is carried out in streets, often in front of television cameras; it is recorded by journalists and thoroughly investigated by courageous fact-finding teams of women’s groups, civil rights activists, international agencies, and even by the Indian state’s own National Commission of Human Rights. If after such exposure and condemnation, terror is allowed to continue and hold its own with its entire machinery intact, – both the Modi Government and the Central coalition remain unchanged, none of the accused political leaders in Gujarat is punished, and violence has become a daily event – then, indeed a page of history has been turned, and our people have taken a long step towards collective barbarism and dehumanisation. “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?” It is not Muslims alone who need to fear the future, but Hindus even more so – for what they have allowed to happen will make savages out of them, will destroy a complex and rich religion that used to be Hinduism. For the survivors of violence are told to convert if they want to live, as the victims who were massacred were told to utter the name of Ram before they were cut down and burnt. It is not remotely an exaggeration to say that this is the worst crisis in its history that faces our country today – worse than any foreign invasion, old or new, worse than colonisation, worse than the terrible sundering apart of the land. The crisis involves more than the security of minorities, the integrity of the nation, or law and order. It involves the survival of basic human values in our land.

    The facts of Gujarat violence are well known. I will try to locate a few patterns and trends within this violence. My main contention is, it is not the collapse of the state machinery that we are looking at, but the penetration of state and grass roots institutions – from police to hospitals – by the Sangh Parivar. I will try to link the trends in Gujarat with dominant ideological and institutional activities of the Sangh. When talking of Gujarat events, it is very common to use terms like the failure of the Modi Government, the weakness of the state, or the limits of the BJP-led coalition at the Centre. I would strongly insist that, on the contrary, the Modi Government as well as the Sangh as a whole have been spectacularly successful in their agenda. What is happening in Gujarat is not a mark of weakness or inadequacy but a sign of the strength of the Sangh Parivar, its firmness of resolve, its ideological consistency. This is the first time in our history that a state is headed by a RSS pracharak. The state governor, Bhandari, is a leading light of the Sangh, while the Central government has as its Prime Minister and Home Minister, two very senior and experienced Sangh leaders. Vajpayee chose to remind us of his basic allegiance in the middle of the carnage during the Goa Conference: “The Sangh is my soul.” Gujarat’s Lokayukta, its chairman of the state public service commission, the vice-chancellor of the Gujarat University, are all old RSS hands. So is Arun Oza, the senior government pleader at the Ahmedabad High Court. Narendra Modi freely used the services of the state radio or Akashvani to put forward his views, and the vernacular press, especially the Sandesh and the Gujarat Samachar, manufactured stories of Muslim violence and freely circulated them.

    KG Shah, who leads the judicial commission to enquire into Gujarat events, is well known for his Hindutva leanings and his anti-Muslim judgements during TADA trials. Among senior police officials, Sangh links abound. V.B.Rawal, Inspector, Crime Branch, was a karsevak at the time of the demolition of the Babri masjid and he proudly displays a photograph to attest his contribution to the cause. DCPs R.D. Makadia and D.G. Patel are close to the VHP General Secretary Pravin Togadia, while DCP Parghi is an intimate associate of Haren Pandya, the state home minister, and accused by many of inciting the violence and actively assisting in it. We may remind ourselves here that at the time of his election, Pandya had promised to “wipe any trace of Muslims out of Paldi”, Paldi being his constituency, and a site of great violence in recent months. In 1999, Mahen Trivedi, Minister of state for Home, publicly declared at a police function ” We told you that we don’t want Muslims in controlling posts. ” Gujarat, incidentally, has only 65 senior Muslim police officers, none of them at present in active field service.

    A happy conjuncture for the Sangh parivar, with all contingencies taken care of, all loopholes sealed. As a result, no important member from the entire combine – not even from the Bajrang Dal – has so far been arrested. This, despite the fact that several FIRs had been launched and numerous complaints made by eyewitnesses that not only local BD and VHP office-bearers, but also municipal corporators and MLAs – both men and women – led the mobs. Even BJP Ministers have been named by many: Gordhan Zadaphya, Revenue Minister; Bharat Barot, Food and Civil Supplies Minister; Nitin Patel, Finance Minister; Ashok Bhatt, Health Minister; and I.K. Jadeja, Development Minister. VHP leader Jaideep Patel and Maya Kodnani, BJP MLA, are extensively implicated in the gruesome massacres at Naroda Patiya.

    All the affiliates and the sub-affiliates of the Sangh Parivar have displayed great mutual solidarity and protectiveness. BJP supported each of the VHP bandh calls that led to massive carnage – VHP bandhs over the last four years had unfailingly done so, there was thus sure foreknowledge about what a bandh call would mean. Modi consistently concealed the extent of damage and claimed that things were almost normal even while massacres were happening. The RSS and the BJP cleared Modi of all blame and responsibility. Vajpayee’s explanation for the violence echoed Modi’s action-reaction thesis: Godhra led to a spontaneous outburst from all Hindus, Muslims have never lived in peace with non-Muslims anywhere in the world. Advani had cleared the BD of all charges of violence at the time of the murder of Graham Staines and his children: “I know these people, they will never do such a thing.” K.K.Shastri, a nonageraian VHP leader and noted Sanskritist,, issued a circular which claimed that a team of 50 lawyers were working to release the arrested and to fight their cases.

    It is not accidental that the RSS had described Gujarat as ” the laboratory of the Hindu Rashtra. ” The experiments are now showing results. So magistrates sat quietly while the state burned, the police refused help at best, and, at worst, shot, tortured and raped Muslims. Fire brigades did not come to help, hospitals turned away Muslim victims, Muslim ambulance services were systematically disrupted by the police. FIRs were either not registered, or registered at a collective level which left no room for individual complaints. Arrests were not made and relief came mostly from Muslim, Christian or Non-Governmental organisations. There are no rehabilitation plans, compensation claims are impossible to establish, and, if established, they are either not paid at all or paid fractionally.

    For the last six months, charges had been made by independent agencies that the BD was holding congregations on Saturday evenings, where tridents and swords were distributed and martial training was given. It was also pointed out that systematic lists of Muslim addresses, business concerns and of collaborative ventures with Muslim capital were compiled. The truth of the allegations was borne out in the knowledgeable and sure-footed way in which mobs identified households and residences, selecting Muslim apartments in mixed housing societies, or burning hotels that carried Hindu names but included some amount of invisible Muslim capital. Government departments and their official records had obviously been pressed into service. The pile up of weapons and the training to use new and deadly chemicals to burn house and bodies, the ability to deftly light and throw burning gas cylinders, the availability of swords which is legally a contraband object – all this proves months of systematic planning and not at all a spontaneous outburst immediately after Godhra.

    More sinister is the management of the aftermath of the major flashpoints of violence. The erasure of evidence and of bodies, the chain of help to BD and VHP from the highest quarters, also speaks of meticulous advance planning. Was the role of the NDA allies also foreknowledge, or was it an inspired guess? Was it anticipated that allies like Fernandes would applaud rape as natural, that TDP would demand the dismissal of the Modi government but would not vote against BJP, that Trinamool would demand President’s Rule but would vote with the BJP?

    Be that as it may, there is no doubt that without a unique conjuncture of events – BJP at the helm at the Centre, an RSS pracharak at the state – ethnic cleansing on such a scale could not have been carried out. It was no mere criminal elements who caused the massacre, nor was it the independent work of lumpen BD activists. At any given time, mobs of thousands were roaming the streets, in as many as 16 districts, and no state can harbour that large a professional criminal population. Faces in the mob that were recognised by the victims included well-known political leaders, teachers, advocates, shopowners and traders, sarpanches, farmers, labourers, tribal and dalit groups. The recruitment of widely divergent social groups, the training in combat action, the mobilisation of an immense will to violence bespeak tenacious and longstanding political activity within the very pores of civil society.

    II

    What kind of politics accomplished all this? The BD is the official youth wing of the VHP, which, in turn, is the religious wing of the Sangh, established and trained by the RSS. Its top leaders are all RSS members, and many also have BJP membership. The Sangh leaders told us in 1990 that Bajrangdalis were junior members of the Parivar, important only during vendettas and scuffles – ” during *** for tat situations” – but important, nevertheless. Incidentally, on the day of the VHP bandh on 28 February, a group of ABVP students ransacked the Delhi University library building. They sported saffron headbands with Jai Shri Ram stamped on them, they carried swords – the typical gear of BD mobs in Gujarat. The ABVP, however, is an official organ of the RSS.

    The RSS was set up in Nagpur in 1925, with a group of upper caste and middle class urban youths. It, therefore, has been in continuous service for nearly 80 years. Since it stayed away from all anti-colonial or working class and peasant movements, it never came under any colonial repression. Till the 1940s, it was a low-key organization, with a slow spread into parts of western and Central India, mostly among brahman youths. It came into its own during the growing communalisation of politics in the 1940s, and it played a considerable role in the holocaust violence. After it recovered from the brief ban after Gandhi’s assasination, it moved into grassroot work: setting up a chain of schools, using its womens’ organisations which had been founded in 1936 to spread Sangh values through informal networks among neighbourhood and workplace women, providing training camps for children and schoolteachers. It also founded the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad and the Bharatiya Jan Sangh. In 1964, it added the Vishwa Hindu Parishad to its list of affiliates to work among religious organisations, sadhus and mahants, temple networks and priests. The presence of a cluster of interrelated sub-affiliates that ideologically trained a range of social groups in sangh values was not merely a means to ensure electoral success for its electoral wing – the BJS, later renamed the BJP. It was to hegemonise civil society.

    The RSS is profoundly and decisively influenced by the ideological message of V.D. Savarkar, one-time revolutionary terrorist who turned towards a theory of Hindu nationalism from the early 1920s. Its birth was directly inspired by his 1923 text: Hindutva, Who Is A Hindu? The immediate context to this work was the Hindu-Muslim unified struggle under the Non-Cooperation-Khilafat movements, the growth of Gandhian mass anti colonial movements that idealised the peasant as the ideal satyagrahi, and the beginning of organised low caste and worker-peasant protests under leaders like Ambedkar and the communistic Workers’ and Peasants’ Parties. All this threatened the power-lines within Hindu society.

    Savarkar preached that Indians were essentially Hindus in their cultural ethos, and all those who had any affiliation with religious or cultural movements outside the land were not Indians. The formula excluded Muslims and Christians from the body politic. Later, the VHP Constitution added Communists to the list. At one stroke, therefore, citizenship was reserved for Hindus alone and nation and Hindu were made synonymous. In his multi-volume histories of India, Savarkar painted a bleak picture of Muslim tyranny in India, emphasising especially the alleged abductions of Hindu women. The RSS drew a single corollary from this. All Muslims are a threat to faith and nation, and especially to women at all times, and, therefore, revenge must be taken on present-day Muslims both for historical wrongs and for the future danger that they embody.

    The RSS thus constructed its own narrative of Muslim rule that was made into a description of invariable Muslim behaviour at all times. Either Hindus suffered emasculation, or they avenged themselves. Revenge was a mobile concept, as was the figure of the Muslim. For the Muslim of today embodies all past offences and future threats that have been allegedly committed and could be committed. Therefore, revenge could be taken on any Muslim anywhere for anything that any Muslim could do or had done. This is crucial, for it alone explains Modi’s action-reaction theory: Muslims of far-away Panch Mahal or Ahmedabad justifiably paying for an action done at Godhra. Or take the notion of Ramjanambhoomi, for instance. Present-day Muslims must be attacked to avenge an alleged attack on an alleged Hindu temple in the days of Babur. Again, a 15th century Muslim poet’s tomb or a 20th century Muslim singer’s tomb can be smashed to avenge Godhra. Even Muslims of the past must pay for what Muslims of the present are doing, just as Muslims of the present are paying for past sins. Of course, it is the RSS which decided what that past actually represented. That is why history teaching, textbooks and historical scholarship have been special targets of its attacks. They need to assert their monopoly over historical truth, for there is a strange symmetry between their historical allegations and their present violence. They assert that Muslims broke temples, and then they demolish mosques. They allege forced conversion, and then they command victims to utter the name of Ram or to convert. Legends of rapes of Hindu women abound, and Muslim women are then raped freely.

    It is not as if the RSS invented the entire range of negative stereotypes. What Savarkar and RSS have accomplished is, rather, to conjoin socio-cultural prejudices with the theme of nationalism, and then to provide a wide-ranging organisational structure to systematise these ideas into a coherent whole, and to systematically train various social groups in these ideas.

    The RSS shakhas have ideological and combat training schedules on a daily basis. The cadres are taught this message as history, as religion and as nationalism. Two facts stand out within this ideological formation. One is that both religion and nationalism are being recast as a crusade against Christians and Muslims. At the same time, religion and Nation are fused into a single entity whose lifeblood is vindictiveness for alleged past wrongs committed by Muslim rulers. The second is that Hindu unity is based on its antagonism against other Indian religions, which would overrule any engagement with power relations and social abuses of class, caste and gender within the Hindu community. In fact, even a reference to such problems is described as divisive of both religion and nation. The second Sarsanghchalak and ideological Guru of the Sangh, Guruji Golwalkar, was quite frank in his denunciations of democracy, low castes and labour agitations. These open statements, however, became covert and muted once independent India adopted a Constitution based on universal franchise and the electoral wing of the RSS needed to broaden its constituency. The new tactic was, therefore, to silence discourses on rights, equality and social justice by promoting a militant Hindutva and a militaristic nationalism in its place. Savarkar was a staunch supporter of nuclearising of India. The Sangh works among exploited social groups to Hinduise and communalise them; it does not tolerate work for social justice. Golwalkar had explicitly stated that the Hindu ideal of monarchy was ideal for India, democracy is a foreign idea. Recently, Vajpayee echoed that theme when he said that a collapse of law and order was opposed to Rajdharma – a strange word to use in place of democracy.

    At RSS shakhas, themes of revenge are renewed through a plurality of mediums: songs, plays, anecdotes and histories are narrated and performed every day. In shakhas meant for children between five and eight, the games revolve round attacks on Muslims. In RSS run schools, textbooks portray India as a land filled only with Hindu holy places. All geographical features are imbued with Hindu associations, and no other Indian religion seems to exist in the land, except as enemies of the nation. Histories are stitched with myths, epics and legends, portraying Hindu heroism against the enemies of the faith. They are blended so cleverly that it is difficult to notice how very different contexts are mixed up: Babur emerges as the enemy of Ram, medieval history becomes an extension of an ancient epic, and Babur replaces the mythological demon king. Bharatmata is torn apart by Muslims who further plot to tear out Kashmir from the sacred geography of India.

    In the middle of the violence, in secondary and higher secondary exams held under Gujarat school boards, students were told to join up the following sentences into one: “There are two solutions. One of them is the Nazi solution. If you don’t like people, kill them, segregate them.” The reference to Nazism is not accidental. Golwalkar, had expressed strong admiration for Hitler’s anti semitism in 1939, as something that Indians must learn from. He also held out two options to the minorities: either change their religion and merge themselves with Hindus, or live here without citizenship rights, without any claims. Very recently, the Bangalore Conference of the BJP has echoed this message. VHP leaflets, openly circulating in Gujarat today, signed by the state general secretary, Chinubhai Patel, promise: ” We will cut them and their blood will flow like rivers. We will kill Muslims the way we destroyed Babri Mosque”. This is followed by a poem

    ” The volcano which was inactive… has erupted

    It has burnt the arse of miyas and made them dance nude

    We have untied the penises that were tied till now

    We have widened the tight vaginas of the bibis…”

    We will return to the obsessive fantasies of sexual aggression of the Sangh combine in our last section.
    The Sangh has been working assiduously among tribals and dalits to coopt them into its Hindutva agenda., to eliminate Christian influence, to deflect them from a politics of rights and social justice. (It may be recalled that Gujarat has had a record of militant Dalit movements in the 1960s and `70s). While some minor education and charitable programmes have lent back-up, the real work lay in implicating them in anti Muslim violence. Tribals of Panch Mahal, Dahod and Sabarkanta, dalit groups like sections of Vaghris and Charas, led mob action against Muslims, thereby ensuring a safe corner in the Hindu Rashtra for themselves. If communal violence ensures some social mobility within the Hindu community, it is important to remember that the path is a substitute for egalitarian ideas, action for social justice.

    The Hindu Rashtra that is Gujarat works and widens its constituencies with such a vocabulary, such an imagination. Without this context, it is impossible to understand what is happening today. These words are poured out on a daily basis from shakhas, from affiliated bodies that provide education, charity, leisure time activities, combat training and weapons, among men, women and children, urban and rural, rich and poor. Narendra Modi is not an ordinary RSS member, he is a pracharak. A pracharak is the key figure in the entire apparatus. He is celibate, he has no family life or professional work. He is a wholetimer who teaches and disseminates the theme of revenge. Modi has spent an entire lifetime doing just that.

    III

    One of the most spectacular forms of sadism in the recent events had been the way Muslim female bodies were made to function in the drama of Hindutva terror. There had been earlier anticipations of that. The investigations made by the AIDWA in 1992-93, especially in Surat and Bhopal, pointed out several similar features. Women were “tortured, molested, raped, and then burnt to death.” Sometimes, their children were killed before their eyes. At the same time, more often than not, such atrocities were whispered about and not always confirmed openly. This time, rape victims as well as their male relatives have no inhibition about reporting rape and sexual torture; the police, however, do not admit FIRs on rape, a senior officer claims that mobs have no time for raping, and that Hindus, moreover, do not rape. Fernandes, on the other hand, says that rape is so universally prevalent that Gujarat rapes are not worth talking about. So, it has not happened, or it happens universally; in either case, it cannot or need not be mentioned.

    Women have been killed in very large numbers. At the mass grave that was dug on 6 March to provide burial to 96 bodies from Naroda Patiya, 46 women were buried. Bilkees Begum from the Godhra Relief camp told a tale that seemed to confirm a recurrent pattern in most places, according to survivors’ accounts. She was stripped, gang-raped, her baby was killed before her, she was then beaten up, then burnt and left for dead. For variety’s sake, other women also had acid thrown upon them, and then burnt in fires. A women’s’ fact-finding report sums up the usual procedure: ” …rape, gang rape, mass rape, stripping, insertion of objects into their body, molestation… a majority of rape victims were burnt alive. ” Before they were finally killed off, some were beaten up with rods and pipes for almost an hour. Before or after the killing, their vagina would be sliced, or would have iron rods pushed inside. Similarly, their bellies would be cut open or would have hard objects inserted into them. A thirteen year old girl, Farzana, had a rod pushed into her stomach, and was then burnt. A mother reported that her three year old baby girl was raped and killed in front of her, while elsewhere daughters reported on the rapes of their mothers, now dead. Kausar Bano, a young girl from Naroda Patiya was 9 month’s pregnant. Several eyewitnesses testified that she was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword to disgorge the foetus which was then hacked to pieces and roasted alive with the mother.

    At Fatehpura, more than 50 young girls were paraded naked, and then asked to urinate. After they were rescued by a Muslim ambulance service, they travelled to the camp without a stitch on them. Other victims arrived naked at camps, too, after acid had been poured upon their clothes, which they tore off in agony from their burning and peeling bodies.

    Medina Mustafa Ismail Shaikh reported from Kalol camp: “My daughter was like a flower, still to experience life…The monsters tore my beloved daughter to pieces..the mob was saying, cut them to pieces, leave no evidence… I saw fires being lit. After some time, the mob started leaving. And it became quiet. ”

    It became very quiet, for the voices of children could not be heard. A very large number of parents, especially mothers, had to see their children die in excruciating agony before they, too, were tortured and burnt. At the mass grave for 96 people, they buried a six-month old baby. Fatimabibi, who secretly came to Delhi to testify to the violence, kept repeating dementedly: ” Innocent (masoom) tender babies were crying for water, they filled them up with petrol and then lit them up.” At Randhikapur village, a young pregnant woman first saw her baby cut to piecs. Then she was raped and her foetus was ripped out and killed,. They beat her up and left her for dead. Four year old Asif died of 90% burns after several days’ of agony. Before he died, The Hindu took a photograph of his bandaged face, out of which his large, beautiful, fully aware eyes were blazing out.

    One can go on narrating the ways in which babies and women were tortured and killed, but the point here is often the two acts were coupled together. The pattern of cruelty suggests three things. One, the woman’s body was a site of almost inexhaustible violence, with infinitely plural and innovative forms of torture. Second, their sexual and reproductive organs were attacked with especial savagery. Third, their children, born and unborn, shared the attacks and were killed before their eyes.

    In readings of community violence, rape is taken to be a sign of collective dishonouring. The same patriarchal order that designates the female body as the symbol of lineage and community purity, would designate the entire collectivity as impure and polluted, once the woman is raped by an outsider. Rape, in Gujarat violence, obviously performed that function. But what, then, is the point of the elements of excess, the surplus of cruelty, and its multifarious forms? We need to remember that the Gujarati press invented the murder of 80 Hindu women on the Sabarmati Express at Godhra, who had been raped and had their breasts cut off – a complete invention, since even the Gujarat police denied the story. However, it served to justify rapes and mutilations of Muslim women within the structure of ” action-reaction” discourse. The fact that revenge went far beyond that is not surprising for revenge is not revenge if it does not outstrip the original offence.. In Delhi, on 28 February, we heard RSS boys shouting: Ek Ka badla Sau me lenge. (We will avenge one death with a hundred”).

    Beyond Godhra are the legends that all boys in the shakhas are bred on: partition time rapes of Hindu women, rapes of Hindu queens under Muslim rule, abductions of Hindu women all through history by Muslims. There is also the perpetual fear of a more virile Muslim male body that lures away Hindu girls, a kind of penis envy and anxiety about emasculation that can only be overcome by violent deeds. Violence, for the Sangh, is maleness. In the 1990s, when communal violence had intensified, bangles were sent to localities where riots had not taken place, to taunt Hindu men with effiminacy. At Jawaharlal Nehru University, a post- Godhra procesion of the ABVP chanted: ” Jis Hinduon ka khoon na khola, woh Hindu nahin, woh hijra hain”. (Those Hindus whose blood does not boil, are not Hindus, they are eunuchs’). This identification between killing and masculinity, is a strong and uniquely Sangh teaching. In the Gujarat violence, mobs who raped, sometimes came dressed in khaki shorts or in saffron underwear, rape being obviously seen as a religious duty, a Sangh duty. In times of violence, Hindu male sexual organs must function as instruments of torture.

    There is more to it. For generations, anxieties had been whipped up about Muslim fertility rate, of their uncontrolled breeding and numerical outstripping of the Hindu majority. So coupled with anxieties of a comparatively less potent Hindu maleness, there is a fear of infertile Hindu femaleness, and a drying up of future progeny, – the longstanding image of dying Hindus. This is counterposed to that of vigorously self-multiplying Muslims.

    Fed on such self-invented self-doubt, Hindu mobs swooped down upon Muslim women and children with multiple but related aims. First, to possess and dishonour them and their men, second to taste what is denied to them and what, according to their understanding, explains Muslim virility. Third, to physically destroy the vagina and the womb, and, thereby, to symbolically destroy the sources of pleasure, reproduction and nurture for Muslim men, and for Muslim children. Then, by beatings, to punish the fertile female body. Then, physically destroying the children, they signified an end to Muslim growth. Then, by cutting up the foetus and burning it, a symbolic destruction of future generations, of the very future of Muslims themselves. The burning of men, women and children, as the final move, served multiple functions: it was to destroy evidence, it was to make Muslims vanish, it was also to desecrate Muslim deaths by denying them Islamic burial, and forcing a Hindu cremation upon them.

    There were, thus, many layers of signification, of symbolic meanings that went into the act that were repeated by different mobs at different locales, but on fairly identical lines. They can be aligned to Sangh teachings, stereotypes and fantasies. This also explains why the same female body was subjected to a series of sexual humiliation, torture, mutilation and obliteration. Conjoined with the bodies of their children, they provided a site where the entire drama of revenge was enacted in its long and complicated sequence.

    shan Reply:

    panditji(dr Dick Mishra), Tesco also do HALAL food , every chapel in hospital now doubles as friday mosque for prayers, whereas the holy cow SAMBO (white monks must have meant shambhu) was swiftly taken to abbatoir when just SUSPECTED of having TB , so stop propagating this CANARD that white majority is somehow mesmerised with the oppressive religion og panditji.

    [Reply]

  • dr d mishra

    Glad we AGREED, Indian hindus and sikhs grossly outperform Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Will have to correct you – not just Indians from east Africa, even Indians from Gujrat and Punjab villages, as well as Biharis, tamils etc- all dirt poor when they enter UK, and speak very little English- they turn themselves around in 10-20 years.

    In Yorkshire, where I practice, 90% of my muslim parents send their children to the mosque 4 times a weeek for 2 hours each time to learn Islam and Arabic- are you surprised that they underperform. My hindu nurses on the iother hand, working class all, feel dismayed if their children are not univ graduates with affluent careers later on.

    This pattern of muslim educational underachievement with subsequent poverty, and tendency to ghettoisation and violent crime is a feature of most Islamic concentrations and societies, whether in Europe, in Pkistan and to a smaller extent in mohallas in India.

    Glad you agreed with at least one thing I said Ravi

    [Reply]

  • DR DEV MISHRA

    Ravi- flabbergasted by your statement- … I will be surprised if the Tory Party distinguishes between the Muslim Slums of Oldham from the Hindu slums of Wembley or Sikh slums of Southall.

    Wembley or Southall are not slums. And the Tory party actively courts the Indian community whether it is our medical associations, or the affluent Indian business associations etc etc. They very much make a distinction between the two. That is why Cameron and Brown and others traipse down to India with their smiles on display and lecture with a frown, quite rightly so, the Pakistanis either in Pak or here.

    Wembley slums- good lord man- where do you come up with those ones !!!!!!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Average house in Oldham can be bought for 10k, Average house in wembley 180k,southall 130k , SLUM INDEED.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You can pay scores of lakhs of rupees for a juggi in Dharvi – the biggest SLUM in India. Yet a much larger Juggi in Jhumritalia can be bought low thousands of rupees.

    Once again the lobotomised chimpanzee misses the point but opens his bowel movement any way.

    [Reply]

  • DR DEV MISHRA

    Ravi, another of you missiles- …..However, their are H I N D U forces in India who similarly disapprove and try to prevent celeberation of St Valentines day…..

    Not the same as boycotting birthdays in UK or India. When we arrived in UK, we were lonely. But one excellent way of socialising and making friends was through our children. Birthday parties are an excellent way of meeting ppl in your neighbourhood and are an essential rite in the UK, and in India. When many muslims do not do that, they ghettoise their own children who feel left out.

    Valentine day on the other hand is light fluff, a superficial custom that is new to India. And please it is not just hindu forces, most of the Islamic world is even more vehemently against it.

    A little perspective

    [Reply]

  • DR DEV MISHRA

    anoither of your random missiles- …..Jewish Ghettos in Eastern Europe up until WW II. These areas were riot prone as well as many an ethnic cleansing pogroms, just like the ones in Gujarat, were common place in these areas….

    Jews did NOT choose to live in ghettoes, unlike muslims in UK, they were forced there. Jews, like hindus, have always striven to be educationally advanced, unlike muslims in UK or Indian ghettoes. Apples and oranges.

    Ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujrat- heavens man, you seem to be an intelligent educated man, why do you throw these googlies. Did the Gujratis have a plan all these decades which they suddenly unleashed 10 years ago. Or was it a reactionary riot triggered by the Godhra train tragedy when muslims burnt 59 innocent hindu pilgrims alive ? And pl dont give me – we dont know who dunnit. yes yes I know, 9/11 was not an Islamist plot…..

    Call Gujrat an evil riot triggered by an evil event, I have no problem with it. Call it an ethnic cleansing event per se- I am sorry, even my muslim doctor friends here to a man would disagree with you

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    D Mishra

    I am sure of one thing, we are worlds apart.

    The trouble with missiles is that they are like busses, you wait ages for one and then all of a sudden three come along.

    Here is an article that I am sure will find the energy and imagination to refute. Sorry about the cut and paste, but it had to be done.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Ethnic Cleansing In Gujarat

    An Analysis of A Few Aspects

    By Tanika Sarkar

    I

    Gujarat is now well into its third month of violence. Communalism Combat published a comprehensive report of the situation in April. According to its estimate, based on painstaking research, the death toll is at least 2000, economic losses among Muslims amount to Rs. 3500 crores, and more than 270 mosques and dargahs have been reduced to rubble. Of course, the death toll is necessarily underrated, since very large numbers of corpses were burnt to ashes after the killings. After April, moreover, there have been many more flare-ups, more of destruction and terror. What is going on there, judging from the nature of selected targets of violence, is clearly a process of ethnic cleansing, an elimination of the cultural, economic and demographic presence of the Muslim.

    More important than the statistics of loss, is the nature of terror, for violence now consists of public acts of sadism that have been missing from earlier histories of carnage in our country. Looked at dispassionately, we have exceeded the achievements of Nazi terror, Bosnian atrocities, our own Partition violence – if not in scale or numbers, then in the intensity of torture, the sheer plurality and innovativeness in forms of cruelty. It is as if the most gruesome elements from all the annals of mass destruction have been pulled together to form a whole that is Gujarat today.

    If Nazism needed to shroud its evil behind impenetrable concentration camps and gas chambers, the Gujarat genocide is carried out in streets, often in front of television cameras; it is recorded by journalists and thoroughly investigated by courageous fact-finding teams of women’s groups, civil rights activists, international agencies, and even by the Indian state’s own National Commission of Human Rights. If after such exposure and condemnation, terror is allowed to continue and hold its own with its entire machinery intact, – both the Modi Government and the Central coalition remain unchanged, none of the accused political leaders in Gujarat is punished, and violence has become a daily event – then, indeed a page of history has been turned, and our people have taken a long step towards collective barbarism and dehumanisation. “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?” It is not Muslims alone who need to fear the future, but Hindus even more so – for what they have allowed to happen will make savages out of them, will destroy a complex and rich religion that used to be Hinduism. For the survivors of violence are told to convert if they want to live, as the victims who were massacred were told to utter the name of Ram before they were cut down and burnt. It is not remotely an exaggeration to say that this is the worst crisis in its history that faces our country today – worse than any foreign invasion, old or new, worse than colonisation, worse than the terrible sundering apart of the land. The crisis involves more than the security of minorities, the integrity of the nation, or law and order. It involves the survival of basic human values in our land.

    The facts of Gujarat violence are well known. I will try to locate a few patterns and trends within this violence. My main contention is, it is not the collapse of the state machinery that we are looking at, but the penetration of state and grass roots institutions – from police to hospitals – by the Sangh Parivar. I will try to link the trends in Gujarat with dominant ideological and institutional activities of the Sangh. When talking of Gujarat events, it is very common to use terms like the failure of the Modi Government, the weakness of the state, or the limits of the BJP-led coalition at the Centre. I would strongly insist that, on the contrary, the Modi Government as well as the Sangh as a whole have been spectacularly successful in their agenda. What is happening in Gujarat is not a mark of weakness or inadequacy but a sign of the strength of the Sangh Parivar, its firmness of resolve, its ideological consistency. This is the first time in our history that a state is headed by a RSS pracharak. The state governor, Bhandari, is a leading light of the Sangh, while the Central government has as its Prime Minister and Home Minister, two very senior and experienced Sangh leaders. Vajpayee chose to remind us of his basic allegiance in the middle of the carnage during the Goa Conference: “The Sangh is my soul.” Gujarat’s Lokayukta, its chairman of the state public service commission, the vice-chancellor of the Gujarat University, are all old RSS hands. So is Arun Oza, the senior government pleader at the Ahmedabad High Court. Narendra Modi freely used the services of the state radio or Akashvani to put forward his views, and the vernacular press, especially the Sandesh and the Gujarat Samachar, manufactured stories of Muslim violence and freely circulated them.

    KG Shah, who leads the judicial commission to enquire into Gujarat events, is well known for his Hindutva leanings and his anti-Muslim judgements during TADA trials. Among senior police officials, Sangh links abound. V.B.Rawal, Inspector, Crime Branch, was a karsevak at the time of the demolition of the Babri masjid and he proudly displays a photograph to attest his contribution to the cause. DCPs R.D. Makadia and D.G. Patel are close to the VHP General Secretary Pravin Togadia, while DCP Parghi is an intimate associate of Haren Pandya, the state home minister, and accused by many of inciting the violence and actively assisting in it. We may remind ourselves here that at the time of his election, Pandya had promised to “wipe any trace of Muslims out of Paldi”, Paldi being his constituency, and a site of great violence in recent months. In 1999, Mahen Trivedi, Minister of state for Home, publicly declared at a police function ” We told you that we don’t want Muslims in controlling posts. ” Gujarat, incidentally, has only 65 senior Muslim police officers, none of them at present in active field service.

    A happy conjuncture for the Sangh parivar, with all contingencies taken care of, all loopholes sealed. As a result, no important member from the entire combine – not even from the Bajrang Dal – has so far been arrested. This, despite the fact that several FIRs had been launched and numerous complaints made by eyewitnesses that not only local BD and VHP office-bearers, but also municipal corporators and MLAs – both men and women – led the mobs. Even BJP Ministers have been named by many: Gordhan Zadaphya, Revenue Minister; Bharat Barot, Food and Civil Supplies Minister; Nitin Patel, Finance Minister; Ashok Bhatt, Health Minister; and I.K. Jadeja, Development Minister. VHP leader Jaideep Patel and Maya Kodnani, BJP MLA, are extensively implicated in the gruesome massacres at Naroda Patiya.

    All the affiliates and the sub-affiliates of the Sangh Parivar have displayed great mutual solidarity and protectiveness. BJP supported each of the VHP bandh calls that led to massive carnage – VHP bandhs over the last four years had unfailingly done so, there was thus sure foreknowledge about what a bandh call would mean. Modi consistently concealed the extent of damage and claimed that things were almost normal even while massacres were happening. The RSS and the BJP cleared Modi of all blame and responsibility. Vajpayee’s explanation for the violence echoed Modi’s action-reaction thesis: Godhra led to a spontaneous outburst from all Hindus, Muslims have never lived in peace with non-Muslims anywhere in the world. Advani had cleared the BD of all charges of violence at the time of the murder of Graham Staines and his children: “I know these people, they will never do such a thing.” K.K.Shastri, a nonageraian VHP leader and noted Sanskritist,, issued a circular which claimed that a team of 50 lawyers were working to release the arrested and to fight their cases.

    It is not accidental that the RSS had described Gujarat as ” the laboratory of the Hindu Rashtra. ” The experiments are now showing results. So magistrates sat quietly while the state burned, the police refused help at best, and, at worst, shot, tortured and raped Muslims. Fire brigades did not come to help, hospitals turned away Muslim victims, Muslim ambulance services were systematically disrupted by the police. FIRs were either not registered, or registered at a collective level which left no room for individual complaints. Arrests were not made and relief came mostly from Muslim, Christian or Non-Governmental organisations. There are no rehabilitation plans, compensation claims are impossible to establish, and, if established, they are either not paid at all or paid fractionally.

    For the last six months, charges had been made by independent agencies that the BD was holding congregations on Saturday evenings, where tridents and swords were distributed and martial training was given. It was also pointed out that systematic lists of Muslim addresses, business concerns and of collaborative ventures with Muslim capital were compiled. The truth of the allegations was borne out in the knowledgeable and sure-footed way in which mobs identified households and residences, selecting Muslim apartments in mixed housing societies, or burning hotels that carried Hindu names but included some amount of invisible Muslim capital. Government departments and their official records had obviously been pressed into service. The pile up of weapons and the training to use new and deadly chemicals to burn house and bodies, the ability to deftly light and throw burning gas cylinders, the availability of swords which is legally a contraband object – all this proves months of systematic planning and not at all a spontaneous outburst immediately after Godhra.

    More sinister is the management of the aftermath of the major flashpoints of violence. The erasure of evidence and of bodies, the chain of help to BD and VHP from the highest quarters, also speaks of meticulous advance planning. Was the role of the NDA allies also foreknowledge, or was it an inspired guess? Was it anticipated that allies like Fernandes would applaud rape as natural, that TDP would demand the dismissal of the Modi government but would not vote against BJP, that Trinamool would demand President’s Rule but would vote with the BJP?

    Be that as it may, there is no doubt that without a unique conjuncture of events – BJP at the helm at the Centre, an RSS pracharak at the state – ethnic cleansing on such a scale could not have been carried out. It was no mere criminal elements who caused the massacre, nor was it the independent work of lumpen BD activists. At any given time, mobs of thousands were roaming the streets, in as many as 16 districts, and no state can harbour that large a professional criminal population. Faces in the mob that were recognised by the victims included well-known political leaders, teachers, advocates, shopowners and traders, sarpanches, farmers, labourers, tribal and dalit groups. The recruitment of widely divergent social groups, the training in combat action, the mobilisation of an immense will to violence bespeak tenacious and longstanding political activity within the very pores of civil society.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Gujarat’s unfortunate violence as such is shameful for Hindus. There was no need to spice up the events by HR people. This will put question marks in common peoples mind as what is true and what is made up. http://www.gujaratriots.com/
    Please read 11 and 16. These incidents had really shook me up then. There were also cases like Bilkis Bano which were genuine and disheartening. But court did not deny her justice. It held 11 men guilty of rape and murder, for which they face a minimum sentence of life in jail and a maximum of death. With this as background, I can’t buy whatever someone writes because they are professors.

    [Reply]

  • DR DEV MISHRA

    ravi, pl post a link to this article and I will read it with an open mind, as will I read any official non -partisan report in which India usually does well. Also, got to sift fact from fiction as there was the well publicised case of a pregnant woman hacked to death- she did not exist. If I remember correctly, Teetsa or some other activist has been shown to have fabricated some evidence.

    I take it all these evil acts took place after the Godhra tragedy

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    D Mishra

    Sorry if this is disappointing, I have expressed my views, however much repugnant you may find them.

    I have nothing more to add on the subject.

    You were looking for Unity in Diversity, well you have it. We are untited in the knowledge that we are poles apart.

    Jaat na pucho sadh ki, pucho sadh ka gyan,
    moal karo talwar ki, pari rahan do mayan

    [Reply]

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    just asked you for the link, i and the others are waiting

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=99&category=2&issue=17

    [Reply]

    Narayan Reply:

    I am pretty famished at being cynical.be critical.it gives scope for improvement.Even Akbar “the so called great” said- “the Omnipotent one who enjoined the task of destroying the wicked infidels (Hindus) on the dutiful mujahids through the blows of their thunder-like scimitars laid down: “Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands and He will lay them low and give you victory over them”.
    and butchered Hindus. But he was less of a butcher so his “greatness”

    So Modi at best is a Hindu Akbar

    ram autar Reply:

    SAME I HEARD AT TAT ON 26/11,
    III

    One of the most spectacular forms of sadism in the recent events had been the way Muslim female bodies were made to function in the drama of Hindutva terror. There had been earlier anticipations of that. The investigations made by the AIDWA in 1992-93, especially in Surat and Bhopal, pointed out several similar features. Women were “tortured, molested, raped, and then burnt to death.” Sometimes, their children were killed before their eyes. At the same time, more often than not, such atrocities were whispered about and not always confirmed openly. This time, rape victims as well as their male relatives have no inhibition about reporting rape and sexual torture; the police, however, do not admit FIRs on rape, a senior officer claims that mobs have no time for raping, and that Hindus, moreover, do not rape. Fernandes, on the other hand, says that rape is so universally prevalent that Gujarat rapes are not worth talking about. So, it has not happened, or it happens universally; in either case, it cannot or need not be mentioned.

    Women have been killed in very large numbers. At the mass grave that was dug on 6 March to provide burial to 96 bodies from Naroda Patiya, 46 women were buried. Bilkees Begum from the Godhra Relief camp told a tale that seemed to confirm a recurrent pattern in most places, according to survivors’ accounts. She was stripped, gang-raped, her baby was killed before her, she was then beaten up, then burnt and left for dead. For variety’s sake, other women also had acid thrown upon them, and then burnt in fires. A women’s’ fact-finding report sums up the usual procedure: ” …rape, gang rape, mass rape, stripping, insertion of objects into their body, molestation… a majority of rape victims were burnt alive. ” Before they were finally killed off, some were beaten up with rods and pipes for almost an hour. Before or after the killing, their vagina would be sliced, or would have iron rods pushed inside. Similarly, their bellies would be cut open or would have hard objects inserted into them. A thirteen year old girl, Farzana, had a rod pushed into her stomach, and was then burnt. A mother reported that her three year old baby girl was raped and killed in front of her, while elsewhere daughters reported on the rapes of their mothers, now dead. Kausar Bano, a young girl from Naroda Patiya was 9 month’s pregnant. Several eyewitnesses testified that she was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword to disgorge the foetus which was then hacked to pieces and roasted alive with the mother.

    At Fatehpura, more than 50 young girls were paraded naked, and then asked to urinate. After they were rescued by a Muslim ambulance service, they travelled to the camp without a stitch on them. Other victims arrived naked at camps, too, after acid had been poured upon their clothes, which they tore off in agony from their burning and peeling bodies.

    Medina Mustafa Ismail Shaikh reported from Kalol camp: “My daughter was like a flower, still to experience life…The monsters tore my beloved daughter to pieces..the mob was saying, cut them to pieces, leave no evidence… I saw fires being lit. After some time, the mob started leaving. And it became quiet. ”

    It became very quiet, for the voices of children could not be heard. A very large number of parents, especially mothers, had to see their children die in excruciating agony before they, too, were tortured and burnt. At the mass grave for 96 people, they buried a six-month old baby. Fatimabibi, who secretly came to Delhi to testify to the violence, kept repeating dementedly: ” Innocent (masoom) tender babies were crying for water, they filled them up with petrol and then lit them up.” At Randhikapur village, a young pregnant woman first saw her baby cut to piecs. Then she was raped and her foetus was ripped out and killed,. They beat her up and left her for dead. Four year old Asif died of 90% burns after several days’ of agony. Before he died, The Hindu took a photograph of his bandaged face, out of which his large, beautiful, fully aware eyes were blazing out.

    raj Reply:

    Dr Mohammad Iqbal’s composition Sare jahan se achcha Hindustan hamara. This patriotic poem is often referred to as a Quomi Tarana
    — liar, its called – Tarana-e-Hindi – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saare_Jahan_Se_Achcha

    The national anthem of Pakistan or Qaumī Tarāna (Urdu: قومى ترانہ),
    — cannot forget your home land ???

    ram autar Reply:

    raj national song of pakistan was written by jagan nath azad while national anthem of bangladesh was written by rabindra nath tagore.sare jahan se achcha is also quomi tarana ,when we take india as quom.
    acceptance of bankim song as national song show the effect of hindu fascist and zoinists on our national movement.jana gana mana is also anti-national song,it was first sung to honour king george 5th.
    we have to rewrite our national songs.

    till brhmnst are not isolated,nothing is possible.power should go in peoples hand.

    raj Reply:

    india as quom. —– nothing better than kaffir, see this

    Quom – it simply means a community, a society, a nation.
    — as a true beleiver, twisting
    Some South Asian Muslims have been known to stratify their society according to Quoms.[13] These Muslims practise a ritual-based system of social stratification

    The social stratification among Muslims in the “Swat” area of North Pakistan has been meaningfully compared to the Caste system in India. The society is rigidly divided into subgroups where each Quom is assigned a profession. Different Quoms are not permitted to intermarry or live in the same community.[13]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims

    Sections of the ulema (scholars of Islamic jurisprudence) provide religious legitimacy to caste with the help of the concept of kafa’a.

    — so much for casteless ummaha, go find something better then kaffirs

    Vinay Reply:

    Read your reply to Balwinder waiting for him to say, how is that Mishra beat you in debate. Does that mean, you agree with Balwinder that you came only second best to Binoy? (Telling half truth is not telling the truth). You avoided to react to the question of Hussein painting Prophet, Fatima. You were 100% sure that Tory party does not use the words Muslim Ghettos. But he replied with headline statement of Tories. You ignored again. But he didn’t come chasing you, waiting for your reply (the way you did for Balwinder).

    The reason for Godhra Train burning, you base your faith on Bannerjee Panel, which was set up by Railway Minister Lalu to investigate Godhra incident. Gujarat High Court has already ruled formation of UC Banerjee committee as illegal and unconstitutional. Other reports (Nanavati Panel and Tehelka Investigation) have concluded that the coach was set on fire by the mob outside, but differ in their views whether it was pre planned or a spontaneous vandalism which went out of control. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhra_train_burning ). You say “(Coach burning was due to) a fire that started from a cooking stove taken into the train. However, that may not fit into your jaundiced view.” I suppose “jaundiced view” is also a relative term.

    Coach burning and the riot, both are inhuman. What is the difference between a person saying, “coach burning was just an accident but riot is inhuman” and another person saying “coach burning was inhuman, riot was only a reaction to the provocation” ? Both arguments try to cover up something, which they find uncomfortable to deal with.

    You tried to equate Oldham riots in 2000 to Southall riots in 1979. To compare Southall situation ( http://www.dkrenton.co.uk/anl/southall.htm ) to Oldham where young “asian” boys attacked an old
    (white) war veteran for going into “their area” is not equal terms.

    ram autar Reply:

    The reason for Godhra Train burning, you base your faith on Bannerjee Panel, which was set up by Railway Minister Lalu to investigate Godhra incident

    vinay tell me why muslims will burn the compartment.there was small demostration by 40-50-ladies
    few harami ram sevaks kidnapped a young muslim girl of a tea seller.but riot was preplanned.fire started from inside compartment ,where there was no muslim.

    dont repeat this lie again.modi and his gang of anti-national; should be arrested ,to ave the respect of indian judiciary

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Ignoring a comment is not the same as losing the arguement. It merely suggests that I have lost interest.

    Since you ask so politely, I will try to respond.

    My point about M.F. Hussien was not on any one individual painting or anything of that nature. The point I was making is the India is an open and tolereant society and MF Hussien is not the first person to have created a form of sensationalism using art. One expects that to be par for the course. If India became as repressive as Pakistan and other Islamic countries, then where is the difference. The banning of cartoons by Islam was expected, banning of a Painting by Hussien/or the Film Water are signs of intolerance seeping into otherwise liberal India. This is led by the Right Wing Hindu organisations. That was my point and you or any one else is free to dis-agree with it. If this means I lost the argument. Then so be it.

    I am still 100, no I will raise that to 1000% sure that the leader of the Tory Party did not utter the words “ban Muslim Ghettos”. Quoting a sensation REDTOP headline does not make it accurate. It just means I was bored with such puerile argument.

    The logic, that Muslims set alight to the Godhra Train and the riots which followed are therefore understandable, is something I do not accept. I accept that the balance of probability is that a cooking stove caused an accident which lead to fire. The riots that followed were an opportunity the Hindu Right did not want to miss. The facade was religious the underlying reasons for the riots were secular. To understand what those were is to find out what happened to the land where the Muslims lived. Once again, if my version of the truth is not acceptable, then how does that mean I lost the argument. The best it could mean is that of the variety of explanations available, I choose to believe the one that is different from the one some one else believes.

    Yes of course jaundiced view is not only relative it is pejorative term. That does not make me loose the argument. All it does is exposes me to be a bad tempered barsteward. Guilty as charged.

    Deliberate coach burning and a riot could be said to be equivalent, Accidental coach burning and deliberate rioting can not.

    Oldham Riots with Southall riots were both anti immigrant riots. For me and I have said that before. A anti immigration riot in a Muslim locality can be mistaken as a riot against Islam. However, it was merely an anti Immigration riot. That is definitely true for Southall/Bristol/Liverpool/Nottinghill/Etc riots. The recent riots in Luton could conceivably be classed as an anti Islam Riots because these took place after 9/11, Iraq War, Afghanistan invasion etc. Very sizable Muslim minorities live in several Lancashire and Yorkshire towns; these are not riot prone towns. These populations have lived there since the early 1950s. Recently ever since Political Islam has started to flex its muscle that retaliatory violence has surfaced.

    So please explain to me how I lost this argument.

    For me to loose an argument would be if irrefutable facts to those I represented are provided. Merely contradicting my subjective opinion with ones own subjective opinion does not amount to me loosing any arguments, whether that is with Binoy or with Dr Mishra or dare I say, with you.

    I hope I have not missed any of the points.

    While I am here. I very firmly believe that the explanation for under achievement of Pakistani and Muslim pupils, when compared to their Indian counterparts can be easily explained using secular reasons such as Economic prosperity, general conservative attitude towards education, etc. The Romany, Irish, and other east European communities in the UK also under perform. They are not Muslim and do not spend 4 hrs Quran studies. Children of Somali refugees, though Muslim, are very keen on education, for the simple reason the instability in Somalia meant that for years their parents were deprived of education. So I hope you would agree that explanation of why Pakistani and Bangladeshi kids under perform is not simple and it is not SOLELY because they are Muslim, though that is a contributory factor.

    So did I loose this argument as well.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-

    While Islam/Muslim is not the sole cause of educational underachievement, it is just note a “contributing factor”. It has a lot to do with Islam/Muslims and the systems of government in islamic countries. Muslim countries in general, except Iran and Turkey are universally bad in education. As somebody remarked in an earlier blog, one can see this underachievement reflected in books published in Islamic countries.

    sure there may be other reasons too. Bit the elephant in the room, Muslim/Islam, definitely is the big one.

    Now there are many ways of dealing eith this. But denying and not doing anything to improve is not a solution..

    scholars from islamic ountries in a report published by the UN HRD talked about the alarming “knowledge deficit” in Islamic countries. Will refer to that in my next comment.

    We know there is an Islamic problem, or if the word is offensive, a problem with education among Muslims; it does not help Muslims if your focus is to prove there is no education problem among Muslims, or their problem is no different from Llithuanians.

    Obviously many britishers think there is a problem and they are attacking or Mus;lism are attacking them..
    ravi-

    ram autar Reply:

    abbe chutia hegde,i wAs in khazakistan literacy is 98.5%.all central asian countries literacy is 90%.IN INDIA ONLY A SECTIOPN OF HIGH CASTE HINDUS ARE EDUCATED remaining are illeterate.these high caste use their education to leave india and fk india.
    during moghul time india had literacy percentage of 93%.when they left it was 8%.moreover high caste muslims (came as invader)are far better in every line as compare tro high caste hindu invaders.
    problem is with local converts whose blood was sucked by brhmns for thousands of years.but after conversion they have become far more rich and confident.but in india they are still under curse of hinduism.

    Ravi Reply:

    Feel free to disagree, no issues.

    Feel free to offer an alternative explanation, no issues.

    Feel free to open a new issue or throw a different light on an existing issue.

    Be judgemental, as is sadly your habit, then be prepared for retaliation.

    For every time you call me a pseudo secular, be prepared to be treated as if you were a crypto fascist and a Hindu apologist.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi-
    U bring up MFHussain as an example of intolerance.

    First of all he moved out not becuse of any gobvernment action, but was afraid some people (belonging to hindu religion) imay do harm to him. So, let us be sure we do not have a “blasphemy law” equivalent.. and no law on books to go after Muslim painters.

    Now if MF Husain has drawn a picture of Muhamed fully clad, and riots erupted (wghich it will surely, and he may even be killed), would the Muslims be called intolerant hooligans?

    He drew naked Sita and naked Saraswati. the naked Sraswathi was copulating with a lion. Why are you surprised that some people became very angry– what does it have to do with intolerance creeping in Indian society? Will he draw Fatima engaging Jannat with animals?His dealings in sexuality will not create any uproar, but his doing what he did with Sita and Saraswathi and Bharat mata will definitely create an uproar from some people. I find it strange that you find it strange.

    Now he himnself is not for any freedom. During Mrs Gandhi’s emergency, he drew a cartoon of Mrs Gandhi as Durga, slaying the asura Jayaprakash Narayan. A congress stooge, he supported the arrests of artists and writers by Mrs Gandhi. He was one of the few artists who were not arrested. He did not say any word againt emergency, not only that, he justified denying freedoms to his fellow artists whow ere arrested.

    He says he is free to do anything in Quatar. Great free country. Let him draw a picture of Mohamed, not naked, but fully clad.Let him draw “fatima engaging jannat with animals”.. And let him experience the freedom after that in the great free country of Quatar.

    I want you to know that Satanic Verses was banned in india by India government; Nobody complaimed at that time India is going down in intolerance, When Tasilma was atatcked by Muslims, nobody complained that India is going down in intolerance. .

    Ravi Reply:

    Narayan

    So Modi at worst is petite Hitler

    ram autar Reply:

    Brahminical rulers, like their Jewish cousins, are experts in propaganda which made the gullibles in the West to believe that India is the “land soaked in spiritualism”, that the people are so god-fearing that they do not kill even an ant. Their biggest gas balloon is Gandhi whose “saintly appearance” deceived the whole world.

    Such a “great land of spiritualism”, with 330 million gods, is buried under mountains of corruption and destroying every wing of the society. Its very pillars of “Hindu spiritualism” are shielding and defending the corrupt rascals.

    “KHATRI SICK” IN SCAM ?
    When the World Bank nominee, the “Khatri Sick” PM’s name figured in the country’s most famous and the largest financial scam, (telecom), he rushed to the notorious Puttaparti Satya Sai Baba, hailed as the very incarnation of god, though the same god could not cure the hundred and one diseases he is suffering from.

    Brahminical “spiritual” leaders in hundreds have gone to US, UK and other Western countries to fool the godless Christians and doing brisk business selling their bogus yoga, a big humbug.

    TIRUPATI RECEIVES TAINTED MONEY
    Suresh Kalmadi, a Madhwa Brahmin from Karnataka, is fully protected by the Udupi swamis and their butter thief god Krishna. Harshad Mehta, Ketan Desai, Ramalinga Raju, Ambanis, all of them are highly spiritual fellows — whatever that may mean.

    Bangalore’s Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and the Udupi Pejawara Swami are the gurus for all these thieves.

    The Tirupati temple, the richest in India, is receiving all this stolen money. Yet, neither the presiding god nor its priests rejected this filthy stuff. Reports say the money stolen in all these scams are deposited with these Hindu swamis and temples for safe- keeping.

    [Reply]

  • SR

    Whatever happened in Gujarat is tragic no doubt and as an Indian we should be sorry for that or for that matter any of the policitical incitings/mobs wherein only the common man dies. I am an Indian first then anyone whatever religion it is. All these talk of religion and god sounds so hollow when a man kills a man.

    India has witnessed similar or more worse carnage in the 1984 riots for which still justice is not done and all congressis are still roaming free scot freee. The people who were displaced, looted, burnt – i remember i spent sleepless nights since i was a child and somehow witnessed a gory incident of burning a family.

    Have mr. zia ever taken up the cause and have probed into the lives of those people who came to streets from being a wealthy. Have zia ever talken about it NO why is only a muslim or an Inidan first. Is it that only what concerns the muslim that only matters to him and not the Indians.

    How many Hindu pandits are displaced in Kashmir. Kashmir for once was never so islamic but was land of Sufis but these radicals have turned it into hell. Have this gentlemen zia ever been vocal on that ground- i belive there wont by any hindus. Did you ever looked into the life of these displaced Hindu Kashmiris. Recently in pakistan there were so many hindus/sikhs were forced to run for life why dont the muslim community apologise.

    Comparing modi to hitler i feel is bit too much and seeems like this writer only wanted to spew venom.

    I have been following many editors in the blog but i feel they only have pure pro congress views which is very shameful for a journalist. As an Indian why dont zia come forth and take a balanced view.

    Again – the debate will never end but then we have to move on. It doesnt really matter what other countries think of us but what is important is how we are treating each other.

    [Reply]

  • dr d mishra

    Thank you Ravi for posting this link. I will read it and will read all available sources on the Godhra / Gujrat tragedy. I think I represent all hindus in saying that violence has NO place in India. All violence must be crushed but for the long term it is more important to also ensure that we prevent it from happening in the future.
    Some preventive aspects are simple- control population, ensure universal education, abolish illegal Bangladeshi immigration, control Wahabism and other Taleban / ISI radicalisation from across the border and from within- and most importantly teach all Indians to treat all equally- whether they are dalits or muslims- and my feeling is that all else, including reactionary majority violence, corruption etc will fall into place.
    Gujrat and Godhra remind me of Afghanistan and 9/11- all so pointless, all having the ability to take back inter religious dialogue by decades

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    DR READ JAMMU MASCARE.aurangzeb was more intelligent and secular than dara.brhmns were ally of mughuls they never opposed muslim reule ,even there was no undrground movement agaist them.rss are zoinist thugs who want who want to destroy india for their personal gains.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    D Mishra

    I second your proposal.

    [Reply]

  • dr d mishra

    I will end this post by saying that the struggle in Islamic societies is the struggle between Dara Shikoh and his tyrant brother Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb won, imprisoned his father and killed all his brothers. He spent his whole lifetime in needless brutal wars- from the age of 60-88, he was on the Deccan front in continuous warfare, and changed irrevocably the fate of hindu muslim relations for centuries.
    We await the birth of Dara Shikohs in the muslim ummah, who will, like him, several hundred years ago translate the Vedas and Upanishads into their language and demonstrate the love and respect for the indigenous culture of their new found lands.
    A slightly emotional Indian in UK signing off….

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    JAI HO.

    Role of Hindu religion: The principal cause of our people losing the power to think, judge and decide is the opium “Hindu religion” that has converted us into monkeys. Though Hinduism is not a religion but a hypnotic humbug, it destroys our very thinking capacity. Every person is born rational but Hinduism kills our brain power and makes us monkeys.

    Today’s youth, even the non-Hindu Muslim, Christian, Sikh, have already become victims of this belief system — so effectively constructed by the cinema, media, TV and such other mass manipulating devices.

    The Govt. of India has enormous money. It recently invited the Bangladesh PM and gave her millions of dollars cash gift. Enormous money is spent on the ruling class entertainment. But it has no money to remove poverty, illiteracy, disease, prostitution, child beggars and more than anything devastation in the agriculture sector.

    What is happening in Australia: Honest intellectuals are laughed at. Frauds are paraded. Big Lies are believed but Sacred Truths are brushed aside. To that extent India is corrupted and corroded to the core.

    This is because the Truth is never believed. That is how we are made to believe that Muslims are terrorists, Pakistan is a terrorist state, Kashmiris are separatists, Dalits have no merit, the Christian job is conversion. We are made to believe only in falsehood. That is how over 85% of the country is ruled by a mere 15% of the upper castes.

    We have discussed with university professors, scientists at premier scientific institutions. We are sorry to confess that they don’t believe in facts. They believe only in fiction.

    This country has lost its thinking capacity. That is how India became the laughing stock wherever Indians go. See what is happening in Australia.

    62 years of achievement: The ability to follow the Truth and Justice wherever it may lead is almost non-existent.

    This is our achievement at the end of 62 years of “independence”. Out of the 182 countries in the world we occupy the 134th place. Jai Ho..

    This is the cause of India’s fall and fall — our country’s prestige and world leadership are forever damaged — doomed. Nay. India has become the laughing stock of the world. From the Third World, we have sunk to the Fourth World — thanks to 62 years of Brahminical misrule

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    i hope perpetutors of thid sadism will be punished sooner or later.though brhmncl mediacrscy is tring to hide under shadow of development.ravi thanks.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    zionist propaganda…

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    Teesta Setalvad and Javed Anand
    — hot air , exagerating , without proof, – loose out . polemics are not truth.
    – cannot revel their funding (saudi) – working with agenda, & taken as jokers

    Whenever Communalism Combat is blamed for being ‘too pro-minority’, we hold the sangh parivar and the rest of the saffron brotherhood responsible for this editorial ’tilt’.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sanghi gundaas are organizing communal riot in gujraat since1969victins and witnesses. alive.chor machai shoor.

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Mr Mirza, thank you for your lovely comment about Gandhi. ramavtar is a Pakistani or a very dysfunctional Indian who does these bizarre mile long cut and pastes. Most of us here treat him as a bit of harmless fun, a bit of light relief. Pl do not get into the trap of replying to him- for he will bombard you back with mindless inane posts.
    By the way, I have enjoyed yr comments on other posts, keep them coming.

    raj Reply:

    organizing communal riot in gujraat since1969
    — which was started by muslims, and before that it can all be blamed on british

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Dear Shan
    Thank you for your comment, you are partially right. But the fact remains that EDL and BNP have actively tried to court the Indian hindus and Sikhs RECENTLY and their idiot leaders like Griffin have even gone on record to say that Indians have contributed.
    Yes, the average EDL moron may not know the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, but they are guided by their leaders who direct them to the muslim troublespots.

    It was in 1994 that the first mainstream programme came out – Panorama on BBC (Imran Khan was guest speaker, I still remember)- and pointed out that the Indians were way ahead of the Pakistanis in education and wealth, and much less involved in crime. By now, 80% of the white brits know these differences.
    I for one, whenever I meet a non Asian, let them know casually within 5 mins that I am a Indian sikh, with hindu relaives. The response is then very welcoming, with some openly then betraying their anti Islam sentiments. My office boy who is Pakistani openly says that when the English ask him- where you from- he always says India, he is thoroughly fed up of his co- religiousts antics . BEAT THAT

    shan Reply:

    @Sandhu , a classical sikh response , as I mentioned before they are ahead of all the immigrants in LICKING. This is actually a reflection of Hindu (sikhs are an ofshoot) society in general. They have been colonised so so so long , they have no sense of nationhood, islam despite all its medieval obscurantism HAS A STRAIGHT SPINE, and how many times I have witnessed this in UK. Incidentally the spokesman for EDL march in Leicester was a SIKH , who apparently wants to reclaim his country.Amazing they don’t watch TV ,how sikhs are portrayed in WHITE media , take the serial Only fools and horses, A sikh doctor is referred to as a TURBINATOR , jokes made about turban , how a crash helmet needs to be made to protect the sikhs , in another one the sikh is a buffoon . Now Sikhs helped the english to establish the empire and were used as a cannon fodder, that didn’t prevent Frank Bough making obscene gestures about Bhangra. I can go on and on , then again i can be spared for being able to see things which an “average” immigrant may not be able to perceive.

    mohan Reply:

    @balwinder/gopi/binoy/shan..etc..
    when lionizing modi for the economic gains,i dont know how intelligent and articulate minds like you folks relish to forget the fact that modi was the chief minister,the ruler of the state where innocents were massacred ,where the cry for help was deliberately shunned …can you have a peaceful sleep if you were there to witness the hapless human beings hunted down like rats and annihilated ..i dont think so..from your writings and the thought processes . the theory of reactionary retribution is the brain fruit of a facist mind…how come you guys are so persistent that the crimes of few erratic muslims should be the crime of muslim community and penalize the whole community.. btw i am a hindu..not a ram autar.

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    Have you not been asked to prove that you are an Indian.

    By the commonly observed criteria here, if you are critical of Hinduism and or Mr Modi (the next PM of India), then it follows that your are a Muslim hiding behind a Hindu name. Why one would ever contemplate doing that here is never explained.

    ram autar Reply:

    indian my foot.usually thieves ,rascist and murderers call themselves indians.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    but still seem to be better than you

    shan Reply:

    @Mohan, how about Rajiv gandhi , who said about the anti sikh riots “When a large tree falls there will be reverberations all around,and in a way he was right , as to the congress politicians ACTIVELY instigating RETRIBUTION ,NOT MUCH COMMENT HUH, the whole administration was sleeping and it HAPPENED IN MANY CITIES ACROSS INDIA. same with gujrat , IT WAS INEVITABLE , as much it was tragic, and it may denote ALL ROUND INCOMPETENCE AND COMPLICITY , IT CERTAINLY WASN’T PRE PLANNED.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan-

    there is a side debate going on education achievement by various groups in UK.

    is there anything available on high school achiement or garduation accomplishment 1)by country background of UK immigrants- like pakistan, India, Ireland, , bengla Desh,Greece tc (add some Europen countries because Ravi sayd Muslims are as good as IRish and Lithunians) 2) the same by religious background.

    shan Reply:

    @binoy Hegde, Ravi, the plonker has scored his own goal. lithuanians are mostly crooks and bottom of the heap , so being same as lithuanians is not something to be proud of. This educationalacheivement has lot to do with SOCIAL CLASS. Incredible , the bengalees (that is exclusively WB and hindu are top of the rank , then they are children of 90% doctors and professionals. There aren’t many from Karnataka in UK , theremay be few hundreed and again mostly professionals. Pakistani and Bangladeshi in particular are WORST ACHEIVERS, if i remember correctly has fallen behind the BLACKS. Similarly North of England is much poorer than South, in every field. Diet may have some role , Muslims exclusive meat eaters like north of england high fat diet , no vegetables NO FISH, in fact trials re going on in North of England to give fish oil supllement to increase IQ. Also RICKETTS is widespread in Muslim women in UK ,for obvious reasons.

  • raj

    Quom – it simply means a community, a society, a nation.
    — as a true beleiver, twisting
    Some South Asian Muslims have been known to stratify their society according to Quoms.[13] These Muslims practise a ritual-based system of social stratification

    The social stratification among Muslims in the “Swat” area of North Pakistan has been meaningfully compared to the Caste system in India. The society is rigidly divided into subgroups where each Quom is assigned a profession. Different Quoms are not permitted to intermarry or live in the same community.[13]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims

    Sections of the ulema (scholars of Islamic jurisprudence) provide religious legitimacy to caste with the help of the concept of kafa’a.

    — so much for casteless ummaha, go find something better then kaffirs

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) , :) , :) , :) ,:)

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    Ravi,

    Also saw your jousting with Dr Misra. Everytime he proves you wrong, you veer off on a bizarre tangent, what he called missiles. eg, you said muslims are at peace in Oldham and Bradford I think and promptly he gave evidence of deep rooted terrorist and other criminal activities in these communities, and also gave a historical and global context.
    Without admitting you were wrong you threw in Husain the painter and east African hindus. When he answered very well, you do not admit the strenght of his discussion. To a neutral you came second best again.
    Yes, you do get the better of Shan mostly. So, granted you are clever, sometimes I think you are too clever by half !!!!! Wud luv to have you on big boss with Gopi Thomas, B Hegde, D Misra – we could throw in shan and ramautar for comedy. Funtimes, whadoyou think? Balwinder

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sikhs are missed in pakistan ,as now they have to import jokes as well.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    When has he proved me wrong.

    Please quote.

    Or are you saying that because you agree with him, then I must be wrong.

    Is that not strange.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder.

    I am waiting for you to quote where you think D Mishra has won an arguement with me.

    Don’t be afraid. After all you do believe that I am a Muslim, don’t you.

    :)

  • raj

    Dr Boshu was also in charge of a secret project, which was personally sanctioned by the Prime Minister of India.
    — can we hv some more info & proof of this. seems to be another wikileaks..
    - who was the prime minister

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    raj

    I suggest sarcasm is not your strong point, is it.

    :) , :) , :)

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    I suggest sarcasm is not your strong point, is it.
    — it may not be, so what ? but it doesn’t stop you from giving any proof !!!!!
    waiting for it…

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    raj this is not school.u are one of thieve and murderer who are hurting indian and looting this country.u should be told everything why.u are a parrot of the parivar.they die as parrot.

    raj Reply:

    .u should be told everything why
    — because everything cannot be jew, zionist propaganda
    — proof & a name, is it asking too much….

  • raj

    7. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL.
    — and you call other islamophobes

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raj

    A montesori school at the end of your road will be only too happy to teach you how to read.

    It is still not too late.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers,

    — and you call others racist, facist ,,,

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    raj

    I guess you can not read very well.

    Here is areccomendation, read it again. Those are not my words but the words of Shan. Here is the proof….

    shan says:
    February 6, 2011 at 11:06 pm
    @zia, congratulations, this is one of your better written articles ,well researched in contrast to **** dished out bu chikermane etal.I think the success of gujrat is NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO MODI, IT REFLECTS THE GUJRATI CHARACTER. Chiman Bhai Patel used to run gujrat on a business model.
    Gujratis are very INDUSTRIOUS people ,and this has lot to do with the ARID climate and JAINISM.
    arid climate made them go for craft and trade , jainism prohibits tilling the soil let a cearthworm is killed THUS THEIR PENCHANT FOR BANKING OR DHANDHA. This is also cultural ,see the film guru ,all ambani wants from life is the right to do DHANDHA(business). This is the reason all the labour in diamond cutting business is from west bengaland ORISSA. This emphasis on business kicks in the face of BRAMHINICAL ORTHODOXY.Also by virtue of living in a country which can be called “the world is here”(though according to Ashish , it is a colony of bangladesh) I have the authority to v
    comment on Indians from different states. OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS TO UK GUJRATIS ARE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY FRONT. The sikhs are the most corrupt both in private life and in work, LICK WHITES LIKE HELL. Tamils are a two different sorts , the srilankan which are CREEPY, the indian which are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and white posterior suckers, but they also put high premium on education.recent statistics shows 25%of pakistanis in UK are taxi drivers 75% of the women donot work.Now for my own community ,mostly GP’s AND BASICALLY INCORRIGIBLE, suffer from a massive delusion of granduer. As to the bengalees in West bengal ,this is a football team who are losing the game 10-0, thus dropped shoulders , petty , mean and small.In fact I have felt bengalees (that is exclusively WB)
    share a few common traits with english , some aspect of english life is GRAND , beyond description , yet there is is a considerble element which is pure stench.

    Yes I do call other people racist and Fascist.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    — racist quoting racist , going in circle who started it first

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    It is this Brahminical spiritualism that caused a sudden spurt in scams.

    The newly appointed Brahmana Jati Party president, Nitin Gadkari, a Brahmin from Nagpur, recently celebrated his son’s marriage spending Rs. 4 crore or more. From where did he get so much of money? Party leaders did not question him. Shankaracharis blessed him. Our Brahminical media (print and electronic) loves corruption stories. The corruption in the media is a well-known fact. It came to light in the “Nira Radia tapes”. Most of those figuring in the tapes are Brahminical journalists.

    Corruption helps Brahminical rulers to divert attention of the people from burning issues to stupid non-issues. Social justice is the first casualty of corruption.

    As most of the people caught in corruption cases are small fellows like SC/ST/BCs and Muslims, it helps the ruling Brahminists, who are the most corrupt, to crush the enemy.

    GANDHI AS KING OF THE CORRUPT
    M.K. Gandhi hailed as the apostle of non-violence, walking with a simple loin cloth and fountain head of Hindu spiritualism, was the king of all the Hindu corrupt crorepatis. He made the Marwadis, once beggars, into multi-millionaires. Birlas, Dalmias, Bajajs, Ambanis, Goenkas, Sahu Jains were all blessed by Gandhi to loot the country and become rich.

    “Hindu spiritualism” is the other name for Brahminica

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Hindu spiritualism” is the other name for Brahminical blood-sucking exercise

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Ram, why do you bring Mahathma Gandhi into these? he is dead and long gone. You should be ashamed. People like you bring hatred and revulsion for Muslims.

    ram autar Reply:

    what i wrote about ghandhi is right.instead of spreading modernity,he choosen hindu revivalism.root cause of all evils we are facing today.

    Ravi Reply:

    Raj

    Here is an offer.

    I called Shan a racist and I supported my accusation with quotations from his posts. Not for the first, time either.

    I have no regret and I do not mind you calling me a racist, but have the courtesy of quoting from my posts items, which you believe are racist.

    If you do not do that, then it is just name-calling.

    Any fool can do that.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Ravi,
    The purpose of a blog is to keep close to the subject or topic. While I do not deny that you are clever with words, you veer too much from the topic. And while I did have a chuckle at your digs at Shan, there is a fine line where it can become personal.
    Also, for someone like Raj who may not have read the full 263 comments so far, the context may be missing so no point having a go at him.
    I also note that you have a difficulty in admitting you are wrong. To a neutral like me, I think you come out second best in your duels with B Hegde. I quote Hegde’s best lines-

    ‘The energy you spend on blackwashing Modi and Hindus of India could better be spend on educating your fellow Muslims and getting them out of their uneducated state. Educate them, give them hope.. Dont bark on Jews, Hindus, Modi, Brahmins, Caste etc for their plight. ‘
    I respect your enthusiasm and your knowledge, just get a sense of balance. Meant well here, did not wish to belittle you.
    Balwinder

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ur race ran away to europe /america/canada.we have to fight local evils to progress.brhmnsm is biggest evil of this continent which is pulling us back ina planned way.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Never mind Raj not having readt the rest of the comments onthis blog he had not even read the very post he was talking about.

    Come to think about it, it would seem neither have you.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    I note your comments and your judgement. That is your previledge.

    But you calling yourself neutral, now that must be a joke.

    Regards

    Ravi

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    So when you fold your hands and say

    Jo bole so nihal, sat sri akal……so in your mind who is “Jo”.

    Is that not EVRYONE, or do you under your breath mutter, but not Muslims, wahe guru, please do not nihal any Muslims.

    When hands folded and head bowed, in the hazuri of Baba Nanak, you say….

    Jagat julanda raakh ley aapni kirpa dhar

    Jit dware ubhrae tete ley ubhar.

    Do you also mutter, Baba Nanak Ji, I do not include Muslims in this prayer, if one of them comes through any dwara, please block them, do not behold – ubhar – them.

    When reading the Bhagatan di Baani, do you skip over the bani contributed by Baba Farid, Bhagat Kabir, etc.

    When the ragi jatha sings the shabad – which appears on page 10379 of the SGGS….
    Farida galiyan chikard door ghar naal payare ne,….do you get up and leave the Gurdawara.

    Well if you do then that is your choice, but I hope you do not mind if I said that I am nothing, absolutely nothing like you.

    Narayan Narpat Namashkare
    Ayse gur ko bal bal jahin hain
    Aap mukat mohe tare

    I have found my guru and I am very happy with him.

    Jai Hind

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Modi is neither a Hitler, nor a Nazi. However, killings happened; but as Akiro Kuosowa’s Rashomon illustrates, seven eye witnesses each has seven interpretations of what they saw. Modi be compared to Hitler, and leave Yahya Khan, Sadam Hussain (they always fault George Bush, but not Sadam Hussain), Syria’s Assad (who killed 25,000 in one day) exposes the hollowness of “Muslim intellectuals” as well as the “secularists”.

    What Vastavi said is a fact – that all communities are flourishing in Gujrat. It should be celebrated; no quid pro quo about Modi expressing regret, for Modi being a righteous and pious man does not have anything to regret for. .Unfortunately, the journalists and secularists and “muslim leaders” want to create their version of facts, wanting to permanently hold Muslims bckward. Kurosowas woodcutter, priest etc were at least eye-witnesses..
    ,
    Islam puts extraordinary emphasis upon the idea of justice -the earthboud quid pro quo that a man can expect in a righteous life. Pious, good Muslims want justice to be carried out on the killings; that does not mean that they want Modis blood. It is the others – the secularisyts, the self described Muslim leaders,and of course the low class journalists – who want his blood.

    Whether Muslim leaders admit or not, and whether the so called Human Rightists admit it or not, the fact is that 90% plus of Indian Muslims are quite comfortable in their freedom. And this fact rubs the leaders wrong way. They take every little thing (I do not imply Gujrat murder is little (however, I do not subscribe that it is a “progrom” as HRs and liberals and Muslim leaders rush to label) as a threat, as “Islam in danger”.

    The basic freedom a Muslim wants is “Hurriya”, freedom of a believer to worship God. The scoundrels who take advantage of every little trouble frames the argument as a threat to Hurriya, hoping to make Muslims riot. It is not going to work as shown by the Muslim’s acceptance of Babri verdict. Whether they liked it or not, they did not rush to the street, although some leaders, both Muslim and the so called secular attempted at this.

    Today’s Gujrat is trouble free and all communities flourish as Vastavi stated. Instead of accepting this, the rabble rousers want to go back in time, and do a what if , to construct a scenario that Modi is a threat to Hurriya.

    Fortunately, Modi is much smarter than all these earthlings.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    brhmncl media is projecting him as man pf progress.but he will pay for his evils of past.he monkey of brhmns.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    tes, seven eye witnesses each has seven interpretations of what they saw. Modi be compared to Hitler

    hitler ws good actor creation of newyork based jewa.modi is bandar of nagpur based indian jews.

    after american cancelled his visa and britain issue arrest warrant against him,iski phati padi.

    since most of his police officers are in jail,NOBODY IS COMING TO KILL HIM.

    U ALL ARE SHAMELESS BEGGERS,PRAISING THE MAN WHO IS CAUGHT USING HIS POLICE AND CID OFFICERS TO EXTRACT MONEY FROM BUSSINESMEN.

    GUJRAT IS PROPERING because of gujratis not because him.brhmncl media is supporting him.
    but like kamalnath he will be asked to go new york and pay for his evilness ,partially if not fully.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Dear Ravi

    Going back to what you said earlier- Burnley, Oldham, Preston, Dewsbury, Bradford, and Halifax are also very peaceful. These are of course areas with a significant muslim minority.

    I am tired of proving when you are wrong for you then throw random missiles and I have to disprove those as well. But here goes, one last time-

    Oldham, Dewsbury and Bradford have seen some of the worst riots in the last 10 years involving muslims vs others-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Oldham_race_riots
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2001/summer_of_violence/default.stm

    Halifax saw terror cells busted-
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6289581.stm

    Another muslim stronghold is Luton which is grossly infamous for Al- mujahiroon and the disgusting Anjem Choudhary. Go look up the link yourself.

    Why you have this infantile obsession with trying to minimise muslim atrocities while trying to ignore the enormous respect that hindus and sikhs have earned for themselves all over the world, God only knows. good night.

    dr d mishra

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    If you believe that these riots had SINGULARLY focused on ISLAM then, then I think we do not have a common basis for a civilised discussion. These rioters would not have stopped and asked a Sikh/Hindu, are you a Muslim, before thrusting their knife into them.

    However, if you think these riots were Whites VS Immigrant and in all such areas where Muslim are a sizable Minority then as a matter of coincidence rather than design, these became riots between Whites and Muslims. So what.

    You were completely wrong about SOUTHALL, you quietly dropped that one. There never has or is now a sizeable BLACK minority.

    English Defence League, is particularly focused on ISLAM, and in comparison to the National Front and BJP are a recent phenomenon. Anti Nazi League form an effective opposition to them.

    Terror cells are a recent development, Halifax has had Muslim population living there since the 1950s.

    If by me saying that you win, will bring this to a conclusion then, here. You win.

    I bid you good bye.

    I have said before and will say it again. We have N O T H I N G in common.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Ravi-

    The doctor mentioned that Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims migrated to UK; but in general, Muslims ghettoized, and Muslim areas have been having riots consisitently. He said part of the reason may have to do with the absence of social interaction, like not participating in birth day parties, wearing of burquas and hijabs, too much focus on religious education at the expense of excellent formal education etc.. He said Hindus and Sikhs have “good name reputation” (whatever it is ), while Muslims do not have, looked down on, afraid of….

    And, if I understand, you are saying the riots are between Muslims and whites (that is what the doctor also said),a nd hence “so what”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You win.

    Bye

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Mohan, Good comment.
    However, to be fair none of the ppl you have quoted seems to have lionised Modi. There is a lot of cut and paste going on here, where ppl are quoting others comments and then analysing it. Frankly, even my head swims trying to keep up.
    For example, Balvinder has said- THE KILLING OF 750 MUSLIMS AND 250 HINDUS / SIKHS IN GUJRAT WAS EVIL, THROUGH AND THROUGH.

    Hegde posted some link about Modi which is not available- so cannot comment on that.

    There is a hard hitting comment above, but not sure it is justifying reactionary retribution. Just stating it as it is-
    ” Lets face it, India is a tinderbox. It saw Khalistani terrorism ( 1978-1992- 30,000 dead), Kashmiri terrorism – 50,000 dead and 5 lakh hindus / sikhs expelled) and local Islamist / Pak inititiated and/ or encouraged terror- Mumbai stock exchange, Akshardham, Kandahar hijack, Parliament attack, Kasab, Jaipur blasts, Delhi Diwali blasts etc etc. Any attack on the state or the hindus is now followed sadly by even more vicious attacks by the hindus.
    I refer to the recent reactionary saffron terror- Purohit et al…..”
    Gopi I am sure said nothing.
    However, I note your comment which reflects your decency and your anguish.

    ram autar Reply:

    dr hegde is an idiot.death toll in gujrat riot are officially 3000.why all the brhmns of world are so big liars i dont understand.brhmnst gundaas are perpetuating riots in gujrat since 1969.riot wa preplanned.generaly hindus did not participated.brhmns instigated poors who attacked muslims with the help of police and trained gundaas of sangh parivar.sikhs were mascared in 1984 by brhmnsts.

    proper cases should be filed on leaders of gang.
    brhmnst are only terrorists on this soil.they are robbers and anti-national.

    D Mishra, UK Reply:

    Ravi, I made 15 odd posts about life in UK. Let us see what the others made of it and of you-

    Raju Kurien Reply: February 10th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    “——-Ravi- The doctor mentioned that Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims migrated to UK; but in general, Muslims ghettoized, and Muslim areas have been having riots consistently. He said part of the reason may have to do with the absence of social interaction, like not participating in birth day parties, wearing of burquas and hijabs, too much focus on religious education at the expense of excellent formal education etc.. He said Hindus and Sikhs have a good name and reputation—”

    Sandhu said -
    “———Also saw your jousting with Dr Misra. Everytime he proves you wrong, you veer off on a bizarre tangent, what he called missiles. eg, you said muslims are at peace in Oldham and Bradford I think and promptly he gave evidence of deep rooted terrorist and other criminal activities in these communities, and also gave a historical and global context.
    When he answered very well, you do not admit the strenght of his discussion. To a neutral you came second best again———–”

    In a lighter vein, Ravi, I thought we had become friends. I quote you-

    “———Ravi Reply: February 9th, 2011 at 12:36 am

    D Mishra

    I second your proposal.———-”

    Good night my dear friend, Ravi

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram
    zionist propaganda

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Ravi, it is not winning or losing. It is whether new information gives a different perspective, better understanding etc..

    You can also use new information, stretch it and use it to support ones own version of the truth.

    Your impartiality and credibility become suspect when you state “SriRamsena going after Valentines day is like India’s Talibanism (I may be wrong in the exact quote..but you expressed a comparison like this 1)to minimize the taliban atrocities or 2) equate the two

    ram autar Reply:

    dr hindoos are biggest thieve and narrowminded community in the world.muslims are bad because they are descriminated.
    hate is the duty of every hindoo and lie is staple food.muslims are most rational and god fearing people.brhmncl mediacracy is saving u.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Mishraji, you are living in a cloud cuckoo land, if you think EDL is only interested in muslim bashing and will turn up on your doorstep on the christmas eve singing “we wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year”, then you are a fool. Whites only know BROWN AND BLACK, and they dont care a bit if you are a mishra or mirza. The word **** is used to mean BROWN people , LIKE USED AGAINST SHILPA SHETTY. In fact muslims have some leverage because of OIL. but if you talk about prosperity , then hindus and sikhs are miles ahead of pakistanis and bangladeshi , but social acceptance they are at par with the folks across the border and are all PAKIS in their eyes.

    [Reply]

  • abhi

    We wait for you to show that you are an Indian first (and muslim next) and start writing about Godhra every time you write about Ahmedabad, Your heart must bleed for the scores of pilgrims who got burnt inside a railway compartment (reminds me of the children who were encased in a wall and left to die because they will not change their faith) in the same manner as it bleeds for the muslims who got killed in the SUBSEQUENT riots in Ahmedabad. By constantly harping on the response in Ahmedabad, without mentioning the cause in Godhra, you are only widening the chasm between the two communities in India, instead of doing any service to the communities. It is time to heal the wounds. What do you think?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    We wait for you to show that you are an Indian first (and muslim next) and start writing about Godhra every time you write about Ahmedabad

    abhi even a blind man can see that godhra train compartment was put on fire vhp rss goons to provide reaso for riot.which was preplanned as other previous riots.compartment was reserve,all of them are alive who died.govt should publish their names.india was ruled by nda.why ompartment was sold in hurry and melted.ram vilas pasawas was made railway minister to clean the garbage.with huge rewards.

    muslims are creator of wealth they want peace.sangh parivar is in power competition.they will be only one who will do anything eveil to grab power.

    [Reply]

  • Indian in Australia

    What about QURANs teachings- “SLAY THE IDOLATORS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM” (9:5 of Quran), “STRIKE TERROR IN THE HEART OF UNBELIEVERS (3:151), EXPOSE THEM TO FIRE, ROAST THEIR SKINS (4:56), ROAST THE BODIES, POUR BOILING WATER ON THEIR HEADS AND INSERT HOOKED IRON RODS (22:19-22) etc etc. There are more than 100 such passages in the Quran which is supposed to be the word of God. As for M S Golawalkar’s statement in his book, that book was written in 1938 whne Golwalkar was a young man and immature, he withdrew his statement in subsequent editions of the book from 1947 onwards, and the RSS has many times disowned that statement. No Muslim has any right to condemn others for so-called fanaticism without clarfiying HUNDREDS of such passages in the Quran.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    History of oppression” in India.

    What the organisers meant was the history of the oppression on Muslims and Dalits and other communities.

    .

    .

    As a student of history, I can tell you that Muslims of India did not come from Arabia, Turkey, Iraq or Iran.

    Barring some 10% or so, the entire Muslim population of the undivided India is indigenous. This is a historical fact.

    You are all our blood brothers. Look at my colour, my nose, my eyes and yours — all look alike. (
    Then how did you become Muslims?

    WORST FORM OF RACISM
    This is because you could not tolerate the Brahminical oppression flowing out of its caste system­ ­— the worst form of racism in the world.

    Because Islam does not believe in racism and assures justice, equality and brotherhood, all of you embraced Islam and got yourself liberated. Congratulations.

    Muslims form about 15 to 20% of India’s 1,300 millions. In fact Muslim population is more than the Hindu population which is 15%.

    And yet Muslims are called “minorities”. This a big joke. Muslims have been cheated by calling you minorities.

    Muslims are not “minorities” Muslims are the country’s biggest majority religion — one Quran, one god, one masjid, one law, one religion. (cheers).

    Besides, Islam is a great liberating religion. The Brahminical rulers are jealous of you. That is why India’s oppressed castes and communities embraced Islam.

    And this so-called Hinduism, which is nothing but Brahminism, became weak. Hinduism is not the name of this religion. It is not even a religion. Supreme Court has said this.

    BRAHMIN TRICK
    The micro-minority Brahminical forces are deeply worried that more and more oppressed, persecuted Dalits will get converted to Islam to seek brotherhood.

    And their bogus Brahminism will simply disappear. That is why the ruling Brahminists, a micro-minority of less than 3%, are furious with Islam and Muslims.

    So to over come this serious problem of Islam, which is not allowing them to get even sleep in the night, they have adopted an ingenious trick. What is this trick?

    This trick is called “hinduisation” of the non-Hindu SC/ST/BCs – 65%.

    As this ruling Brahminists have all the wealth, the media, their temples and gods with the govt., judiciary and police to support them, they have manufactured a weapon called “Islamic terrorism”.

    But Rahul Gandhi, who is called as our future PM, says “Hindu terrorism” is posing greater danger to India than any other threat.

    He did not blame “Islamic terrorism”. His opinion has come in today’s paper. It is a front page story, which all of you must have read.

    I will elaborate on what this “Islamic terrorism” is. My friend, S.M. Mushrif, IPS officer and former IG of police, has written a book, Who Killed Karkare, in which he has elaborately discussed about “Hindu terrorism” and how this terrorism is actively supported by the govt. itself. The book is kept outside for sale.

    The “Hindu terrorists” are manufacturing bombs and targeting important places to put the blame on the innocent Muslims.

    MADANI ROTTING IN JAIL
    My friend Abdul Nasser Madani of Kerala is rotting in Bangalore jail for the past six months.

    If the police have evidence against him, why can’t they file the charges and put him on trial?

    Earlier, he was in Coimbatore jail for 8 years. Supreme Court itself asked the govt. to put him on trial.

    The police had nothing. Finally he was released.

    Hundreds and thousands of young Muslims are rotting in different jails for years without any charge.

    My friend is the head of the Amnesty International in London. The ruling class is furious with the Amnesty. They are not allowing him to open their office in India.

    MUSLIMS NOT GETTING ANGRY
    But the problem is the Muslims are not getting angry. In Kashmir, Muslims are getting angry fighting and dying.

    In Palestine, they are fighting. In Iraq, Afghanistan they are fighting and drove the Americans out.

    But in India the Muslims who are having such a glorious, such a powerful religion — ruled India for 1000 years — have simply surrendered to the Hindu terrorists who are destroying our country itself.

    The Jews of the West and the “Jews of India” have converted India into a vast battlefield and made this a beggar country.

    This is brief in the history of Hindu oppression.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    So Ram, if Moghuls had continued to rule India, and if British did not invade, would today’s India be like
    – Egypyt, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Jordan …the majority of miserable “freedomless” countries
    - Malaysia, Indonesia , the two OIC countries that are relatively free and prosperous

    (I am not including Turkey because Turkey’s king and clerical control were thrown out).

    What is the statistical probability that India will be in one of these camps?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    see china or japan.brhmns and britishers looted india maked this weak.brhmnst the jews of india established foreign rule ands pauperized india.freedomless countries are better than india.gujrat was perpetuated 9 yrs agostill murderers and looters are roaming on street.there is suicide there.
    they are pooor but equal.still free from evils of bmnsm.
    now brhmns have invited multi-national to rob make indian poor and give them hefty commission.
    KAMASUTRA is the only gift brhmns have ggiven to world.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    kamasutra makes people happy–so it is not that bad…sex is good ram..get somwe of that and be away from this blog for a while

    ram autar Reply:

    raju,

    The so-called Indian democracy is a reflection of the “million mutinees”, so beautifully portrayed by the Brahmin, V.S. Naipaul. India is not a democracy but a ruthless dictatorship of the Brahminical racists in which their own women are being suffocated to death.

    Every section of the society is collapsing. Kalmadi’s Commonwealth Game is the latest proof.

    WAR WITH CHINA
    No country can come up by deceiving, gagging, starving and killing its own people.

    Forget about surpassing China, we will not be surprised if the Indian rulers, in their mad frenzy to further squeeze the slaves of India, will by accident get into a bloody war with China and subject India to greater calamity than the 200-year-old British rule.

    Already a third of India is in the grip of the so-called Maoist armed rebellion of the oppressed Dalits and Tribals. The rulers are tolerating it because its leadership is with their own jatwalas. On the other side is the bigger threat of Kashmir on the North and nuclear Pakistan on the West. China has already circled the whole of India.

    The Indian army itself is mired in corruption and its leadership is totally upper caste, totally cowardly and hated by the jawans who do the actual fighting.

    IDLI-SAMBAR WALAS
    With Idli-sambarwala vegetarian Brahminists, who know nothing but bluffing and bragging, will they be able to face two external enemies like the beef-eating Pakistani Muslims and China, already a super power — and many furious internal enemies like Dalits, Muslims, OBCs, Sikhs, Mongoloid North-Eastern tribals?

    When a country is internally so weak and also hostile, how can it face the powerful external enemies?

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    @ raju kurien, regarding ramavtar, pl ignnore him. Most of us treat him like a court jester, who puts out endless cut and pastes. He is a bit of light relief here- anti brahmin, bania and anti hindu in an imbeclic childish way.
    To the HT moderator, can you pl not ban him- not for malice or offensiveness but for the crime of being totally irrelevant to any topic and also for BEING THE MOST BORING PERSON IN INDIA.
    Or is that Pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Ravi, Ravi, Ravi.

    Sigh- what does one do with you. Abhi has torn your credibility to shreds, yet you soldier on repeatedly “…..- By constantly harping on the response in Ahmedabad, without mentioning the cause in Godhra, you are only widening the chasm between the two communities in India, instead of doing any service to the communities…..”

    Raju Kurien has summed up Dr Misra’s posts brilliantly – ” …..The doctor mentioned that Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims migrated to UK; but in general, Muslims ghettoized, and Muslim areas have been having riots consisitently……” Raju effectively admonished you for your pig headedness in trying to ignore the obvious.

    Dr Mishra has once again pointed out the blatant stupidity of your observation that Oldham and Bradford are peaceful despite a large amount of muslims. Heavens man, he actually took time out to write long intelligent posts with evidence, perspective and humanity on the muslim problem.

    Why do you persist in your mule headed obstinacy that Indian hindus and sikhs are as bad as the radical muslims creating mayhem all over the world. You are just plain stupid, is there anyone other than ramavtar-imbecile-pakistani who even supports you.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You win.

    Bye

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    This post is directed at everyone except Ravi, did not want his deliberate misinformation to go unchallenged.
    In the sixties and seventies, the English fascists targeted ALL immigrants- Chinese, Indian hindus and sikhs, African and Muslims. Later they realised that most subgroups had assimilated and integrated and actually helped the local economies with their hard work and enterpreunerial skills.

    Except for many muslims. That is why the new fascists- BNP and EDL- now go for the areas that are have been affected by fundamentalist muslim crime, terror or disgusting anti British rhetoric- eg Oldham, Luton, Bradford etc. Often in these cities there are ‘no go areas’ for whites. The radical muslims are only to happy to respond- hence mutual riots between English racists and hotheaded muslims.

    Indian hindus and sikhs stay out of trouble, they ignore the racist thugs, improve their lot and move onto nice suburbs.

    The killing of Kiwi Blair Peach was by police during a protest by Anti Nazi League against a meeting of the racist National front in Southall in 1979.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @balwinder , the delusional , if BNP comes to power , their only agenda will be to REPATRIATE all non whites with economic package , white even if they are from LITHUANIA can stay. More or less same demand is made by IMMIGRATION WATCH UK, headed by Ex Ambassador to Egypt SIR(yes benighted) robert GREEN , who has no problem in POLES , BULGARIAN , LITHUANIAN , RUMNIAN flooding UK , BUT WANTS ALL IMMIGRATION FROM SUBCONTINENT(that is India , Pakistan , Bangladesh , as much the geezer sandhu would be horrified to be clubbed together) TO COMPLETELY STOP.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    B sandhu
    “By constantly harping on the response in Ahmedabad, without mentioning the cause in Godhra, …”

    Are you are implying that if the “cause” is sufficient, terrorism is justified? Is your stand any different from muslim/hindu terrorists who justify their actions becuase of “causes” which in their view justify terrorism.

    Your view on the Gujarat riots is extremenly superficial to say the least. IF muslims were guilty of what happened in Godhra then the perpetrators should have been prosecuted by the govt. What actually happened was that innocent muslim men women and children not at all connected to Godhra were subjected to a state sponsored pogrom… similar to what the sikhs faced after the assasination of indira gandhi.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Syed, where were you? U in Australia or back? Hope everything is ok.
    I know you were quite optimistic of the Iranian uprise last year.. What is ur reading on Mubarek? Will he go, or will he once again drag dreams backwards..

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Hi Gopi,

    Well, currently am back in India. Family likes India much more!

    reg. Egypt, I do see a ray of hope, but its early days, lots of uncertainties as my egyptian friends tell me…
    I would like you to go through these 2 links:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12407793

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/20112611181593381.html

    [Reply]

    mohan Reply:

    Gopi you may be interested- read this link

    http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/603/egypt-and-the-post-islamist-middle-east

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde
  • Binoy Hegde
  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Mr Syed,

    Not sure which post of mine you refer to. I, along with many others above, including a couple of Gujrati muslims, have simply stated that evil though the Gujrat riots were, a discussion of them is incomplete without a mention of another evil act- Godhra- that directly preceded it.

    Just like there is no point denouncing American excess in Afghanistan without mentioning that its then most famous residents- Osama and Mullah Omar- had orchestrated the evil of 9/11.

    But let me be clear- THE KILLING OF 750 MUSLIMS AND 250 HINDUS / SIKHS IN GUJRAT WAS EVIL, THROUGH AND THROUGH.

    Lets face it, India is a tinderbox. It saw Khalistani terrorism ( 1978-1992- 30,000 dead), Kashmiri terrorism – 50,000 dead and 5 lakh hindus / sikhs expelled) and local Islamist / Pak inititiated and/ or encouraged terror- Mumbai stock exchange, Akshardham, Kandahar hijack, Parliament attack, Kasab, Jaipur blasts, Delhi Diwali blasts etc etc. Any attack on the state or the hindus is now followed sadly by even more vicious attacks by the hindus.
    I refer to the recent reactionary saffron terror- Purohit et al.

    Just putting things in perspective. Sorry if I hurt your feelings anywhere. I consider all Indians equally- muslims, hindus, SC/ST, Christians etc
    Peace Balwinder

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Balwinder-

    Syed used to participate a lot , with very thoughtful and analytical conclusions and observations. He is honest, and not biased in any way.

    I believe he withddrew because of crazies like Ram…

    You will apreciate his writings

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    biggest terrorism india is facing is brhmncl terrorism.root cause of all terrorisms in india.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Syed bhai, I have now located the comment you speak of. I simply quoted the comment by Abhi which was a rebuke to ravi – his full statement was- …….By constantly harping on the response in Ahmedabad, without mentioning the cause in Godhra, you are only widening the chasm between the two communities in India, instead of doing any service to the communities. It is time to heal the wounds. What do you think?………

    Context is everything.

    I agree with Abhi here btw. Once again sorry for any hurt feelings

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Ahmedabad, without mentioning the cause in Godhra,

    godhra was perpetuated by gundaas of sangh parivar ,a signal to start mascare.neverthless all culprits are freed.muslims should have killed people on platform.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram – muslims should have killed people on platform.
    but they burnt the train

    [Reply]

    RAM AUTAR Reply:

    this was rss conspiracy.who locked the bogey.

    syed Reply:

    @Dr Mishra/Shan
    Good insights. You are right in that the pool of indian muslims is extremely small so that Indian muslims in UK find it difficult to get married. Unlike pakistanis, indian muslims generslly do not get married to their cousins. I have 2 cousins settled in the UK as doctors. One has married a pakistani woman & they have serious cultural issues.

    @Gopi
    You are right. Let democracy flower in the arab world and I am quite sure, in due course an era of enlightenment would dawn. On a side note, I was in Saudi arabia recently and was really surprised to note that the saudis are the LEAST religious of all. For example, in the malls at azaan, there is a rush of ppl to get into shops such as starbucks. The reason is that if you are having coffee, the mutawa (religious police) will not force you to say your prayers.

    @RAmAutar
    I can understand your anger. In these coulmns I have time and again said– if you keep on calling a muslim a terrorist there is a good chance he will turn into one – Pygmalion effect!

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Syed bhai, you came late in the debate. I quote some excellent lines by Dr Mishra above-

    …..I think I represent all hindus in saying that violence has NO place in India. All violence must be crushed but for the long term it is more important to also ensure that we prevent it from happening in the future.
    Some preventive aspects are simple- control population, ensure universal education, abolish illegal Bangladeshi immigration, control Wahabism and other Taleban / ISI radicalisation from across the border and from within- and most importantly teach all Indians to treat all equally- whether they are dalits or muslims- and my feeling is that all else, including reactionary majority violence, corruption etc will fall into place.
    Gujrat and Godhra remind me of Afghanistan and 9/11- all so pointless, all having the ability to take back inter religious dialogue by decades….

    Syed, Sir, your thoughts are welcome

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder ,
    honest citizens of india wants modi and his gang to punished as per indian law,for killing innocent citizen of india.what saddam did or hafiz al assad did is none of our concern.
    we consider him no.1 g not like mussolini or hitler.
    he will have slow agonizing death like any other criminal.this chut1a used to equate him to parvez
    muhshsaraf.yeh sala uski zhaant bhi nahi sala.

    i think u are a bloody brhmn using sikh name.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    I will take a bet with you that Balwinder is not a Sikh.

    I posted this yesterday and receieved no reply….so I guess no not really….

    ___________________________________________________________

    Ravi Reply:

    February 10th, 2011 at 2:51 am

    Balwinder

    So when you fold your hands and say

    Jo bole so nihal, sat sri akal……so in your mind who is “Jo”.

    Is that not EVRYONE, or do you under your breath mutter, but not Muslims, wahe guru, please do not nihal any Muslims.

    When hands folded and head bowed, in the hazuri of Baba Nanak, you say….

    Jagat julanda raakh ley aapni kirpa dhar

    Jit dware ubhrae tete ley ubhar.

    Do you also mutter, Baba Nanak Ji, I do not include Muslims in this prayer, if one of them comes through any dwara, please block them, do not behold – ubhar – them.

    When reading the Bhagatan di Baani, do you skip over the bani contributed by Baba Farid, Bhagat Kabir, etc.

    When the ragi jatha sings the shabad – which appears on page 10379 of the SGGS….
    Farida galiyan chikard door ghar naal payare ne,….do you get up and leave the Gurdawara.

    Well if you do then that is your choice, but I hope you do not mind if I said that I am nothing, absolutely nothing like you.

    Narayan Narpat Namashkare
    Ayse gur ko bal bal jahin hain
    Aap mukat mohe tare

    I have found my guru and I am very happy with him.

    Jai Hind

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Gopi, thank you for your introduction about Syed.
    I also quote L Mirza’s comments above for more context for Syed to read. Mirza stated-

    ……….Modi is neither a Hitler, nor a Nazi. However, killings happened; but as Akiro Kuosowa’s Rashomon illustrates, seven eye witnesses each has seven interpretations of what they saw. Modi be compared to Hitler, and leave Yahya Khan, Sadam Hussain (they always fault George Bush, but not Sadam Hussain), Syria’s Assad (who killed 25,000 in one day) exposes the hollowness of “Muslim intellectuals” as well as the “secularists”.

    What Vastavi said is a fact – that all communities are flourishing in Gujrat. It should be celebrated. Unfortunately, the journalists and secularists and “muslim leaders” want to create their version of facts, wanting to permanently hold Muslims bckward………

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    Modi is neither a Hitler, nor a Nazi. However, killings happened; but as Akiro Kuosowa’s Rashomon illustrates, seven eye witnesses each has seven interpretations of what they saw. Modi be compared to Hitler, and leave Yahya Khan, Sadam Hussain (they always fault George Bush, but not Sadam Hussain), Syria’s Assad (who killed 25,000 in one day) exposes the hollowness of “Muslim intellectuals” as well as the “secularists”.

    why u are so importance to modi,neither he is hitler nor nazi.he is shudra.he is murderer of innocents ,who were routinely killed in a planned way to get high caste hindu votes.as he is murderer
    he should pay for his evil crime like th father of arushi.
    reagarding syria,father of present ruler killed few thousands to crush mutiny.the act was brutal but required.as this mutiny was american financed carried by muslim brotherhood.

    he is ex-teaboy of a roadside restraunt.brhmn of nagpur used him to do dirty work.

    he wa using his police in money extraction bussines.thsis is the level of meaness.what muslims want is justice otherwise we keep him on the point of our shoes.u people always awnser in stupid way.
    his political ncareer is finished.form 1q969 to 2002 the gundaas of parivar carried out brutal riots.those involve should be brought to book.
    now to deflect fact u will start godhra.outside train thousands of hindus ere standing did any of them was attacked..fire at godhra was signal to start mascare..

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,

    train was burnt by muslims

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    any proof.name of dead person

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Oh I say, you win.

    Bye

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Ravi, buddy, sorry but Mohan’s comment is very balanced. You can indulge in any amount of criticism of hinduism, sikhism, jainism, India or Modi- nobody will say you are Pakistani.

    Your comments, however, are mono-focussed obsessive rants with no sense of perspective and pages upon pages of mindless cut and paste. I, and many others above, including L Mirza, Abhi, Sandhu, Hegde etc have pointed it out.

    In fact all of us have welcomed and debated openly on these blogs with Pakistanis. So take the criticism like a man, introspect and hopefully we will have better exchanges here.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I guess you missed this one.

    In it I have suggested that we stop wasting each others time.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Ravi Reply:

    February 10th, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    If you believe that these riots had SINGULARLY focused on ISLAM then, then I think we do not have a common basis for a civilised discussion. These rioters would not have stopped and asked a Sikh/Hindu, are you a Muslim, before thrusting their knife into them.

    However, if you think these riots were Whites VS Immigrant and in all such areas where Muslim are a sizable Minority then as a matter of coincidence rather than design, these became riots between Whites and Muslims. So what.

    You were completely wrong about SOUTHALL, you quietly dropped that one. There never has or is now a sizeable BLACK minority.

    English Defence League, is particularly focused on ISLAM, and in comparison to the National Front and BJP are a recent phenomenon. Anti Nazi League form an effective opposition to them.

    Terror cells are a recent development, Halifax has had Muslim population living there since the 1950s.

    If by me saying that you win, will bring this to a conclusion then, here. You win.

    I bid you good bye.

    I have said before and will say it again. We have N O T H I N G in common.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    pundit hegde and pundit mishra ,we have NO COURAGE TO PROTEST
    Once you are both poor and illiterate you lead an animal existence. Brainwash them with Hindu poison which will dope them into eternal silence. Wonderful.

    Otherwise, by this time Hindu India would have exploded — blown into pieces if only the 85% of the sub-humans had some strength to stand and protest, a courage which they will get only if they are literate.

    HINDU RULE
    This is the secret of the eternal, unquestioned Hindu rule.

    Hinduism is a poison pill that can lull you to permanent sleep. Is it not working wonders with 1,300 million slaves enjoying their slavery? May be in the eastern part of India, some stray tribals are protesting. They are dubbed maoists and will be soon gunned down by their own brothers in the equally illiterate police force.

    SOUTH INDIA AS EXCEPTION
    Barring the four southern states of AP, Karnataka, TN and Kerala and to some extent Maharashtra, the rest of India is packed with hungry, illiterate Bahujans. It is in this part of India, called the “cow belt” (also called BIMARU states) that Hindu terrorist party is having its rule. The most stinking Hindu holy places are in BIMARU states.

    How the Hindus are ruling India?

    WORLD’S LARGEST ILLITERATE COUNTRY
    The secret is already revealed above.

    There are hardly any schools in rural areas. The rural India is totally devastated.

    Even if there is a school, it has no teacher. If it has a teacher, it has no building.

    The teacher is so ill-paid, he or she has no desire to teach. Because the teacher is so ill-paid. That is how India has become the world’s largest country of illiterates. But the Hindu rulers are least worried. Because there is not even a protest. Once upon a time, teaching profession commanded the highest respect. Guru Devo Bhava.

    Brahminists realised the danger and quickly killed the very teaching profession. Today the teachers command no respect from their own students.

    EDUCATION AS A LUXURY
    Many schools go without teachers because he or she gets no place to stay. If he is a Dalit or “low caste” nobody will give even a room. The basic salary of a govt. primary teacher in Karnataka is Rs. 6,235 which is less than the pay of a bank peon. Schooltext books and midday-meals are there only on paper.

    As you go North there is neither schools nor teachers. If both are present there will be no students because the parents are so poor that they can ill-afford to send their children to schools as they are needed at home to work.

    When filling the stomach of so many in the house is the problem, education is a luxury in Hindu India.

    See, how beautifully and effectively Hindus have kept India poor, illiterate and also peaceful.

    ——————————————————————————–

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    Hindus have kept India poor, illiterate and also peaceful.
    —- first education minister in 1947, was a muslim, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, he could hv started a revolution, but what stopped him.
    stop blaming hindu, find a new reason.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    education starts from primary level.minister is policy maker.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    so why didn’t he make primary education compulsory through out india? what stopped him.
    – so its a problem created by muslim, but blame on hindu…..

  • raj

    @ravi — banning of a Painting by Hussien/or the Film Water are signs of intolerance seeping into otherwise liberal India. This is led by the Right Wing Hindu organisations.

    — m.f.h – is hypocrite, & you talk about hindu right wing,but his movie meenaxi was withdrawn from theatre., as he doesn’t want to hurt muslims. he / you never talk about it , but only about hindu painting & hindu protest. this is double standard of secular indians. there is no balance, any one pointing out this is called facist, rss goon. its ok to insult kaffirs , but should not insult beleivers ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenaxi:_A_Tale_of_Three_Cities

    The movie was withdrawn from the theatres in the same week as its launch after some Muslim Ulemas protested against it. The reason was that the song Noor-Un-Ala from the movie used Qur’an verses honoring the God as its lyrics which was used in honoring the lead actress.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raj

    Yes I heard about Meenaxi, and you are absolutely right, it should not have been withdrawn, just as Satanic Versus should not have been banned. I have the music CD and I still enjoy it.

    Making India intolerant, just because Pakistan and other Islamic nations are repressive and intolerant is not the answer.

    Our concern should be what we do, and not what they do.

    We should aspire for higher ideals, not sink to their level.

    Your suggestion that I am a hypocrite, take that as a given. Guilty as charged

    The question remains, who is not a hypocrite??

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ravi-

    Raj did not use Pakistan or other Islamic nations in his comment.

    He was referring to Muslim protest in India,and he was referring to the double standard – that it is goondaism of Hindus if they do not like their Gods to be painted in nude, but it is not goondaism if Muslims protest against Satanic Verses or Taslma or cartoon or whatever.

    Let a Hindu draw a picture of Prophet Muhamed fully clad. Or for that matter let a Muslim (“deviants like Rushdie”) draw a picture of the Prophet fully clad. What will you call the aftermath? Intolerance of Muslims or insensivity of the painter?

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Instead of foolishly trying to equate Modi with Hitler (“who devilishly exterminated millions of jews” in the author’s own language), let us ask where India will be today if all chief ministers were as capable as Modi
    - His stae does not have a “electrcity/power” problem. 95% of people have 24 hr access.
    - His state does not have poverty suicides
    - No state matches the education drive Gujrat has initiated and accomplished
    - he has been able to grow 10% plus in the last many years

    Forget the riots for a second. Just imagine, where will India be now, if all states followed Gujrat model of development?

    Now why do people bring riots in the foreground every 60 days – as if no other man made calamity ever happened in India before? Because the usual crowd of India haters – the secularists, human right traffickers, certain Muslim leaders, many Congress leaders etc – will not have anything to complaint about if all states follow Gujrat model. There wont be poverty, there wont be Muslim backwardness, there will be access to quality public health, there will not be corruption at the levels we are witnessing..

    delegitimate Modi, make him Hitler, so hopefully other feeble chief ministers will not follow Gujrat model… that is what these guys want; and thir trump card is what about those 750 Muslims who were massacred when Modi looked the other way’

    any killing is bad. At a mob level it is easy to understand how a godhra will trigger a larger riot. Godhra is heinous, but it will be even more heinous if Hindus deliberately set fire and killed the 60 in the bogey to trigger a larger assault against Muslims.

    Let us not dwell on the killings, let us prevent. Equitable economic progress willd efinitely bring down riots. Also, as some people believe, if the state machinery colluded with the killers and looters, is there anything that can be done to prevent it? Should everybody have gun like in USA?

    [Reply]

    Dr Dev Mishra Reply:

    A very interesting social dynamic is when the second gen Indian muslim marries. The hindus and sikhs marry within their community and with each other. Similarly, the muslims do that- the only problem is that the pool of Indian muslims is small. So, Indian muslims in the second gen may marry Pakistanis.
    Most such alliances are okay, but in some the Indian spouse, usually the female may find the average Pakistani sunni male a bit too aggressive or anti Indian for her liking. Their children may follow the dominant atmosphere of the home and therefore in the 3rd gen, some Indian muslims may have lost their cultural moorings completely.
    But just like some Americans who are finding it fashionable to ”discover” their Irish roots now that Ireland is ”cool” so too are Indian muslims now flocking to Nehru center in London for all the cultural shows on offer ( the center is the cultural wing of the Indian embassy in nearby Aldwych)
    Did I answer your question, Syed bhai or confuse you lot

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    dr problem is with urdu speaking muslim girls.muslim punjabi wants them ,being more cultured and soft.muslim boys are loved by brhmn girls.but alliance runs into trouble if she continues social interaction with fraud hindu swamis.they cheat her destroy her and rob her.i have seen many cases like this.

    na khuda hee mila na visale sanam
    na idhar ke rahe na udhar ke rahe.

    swamis are the carreer of all bad human qualities.do nothing enter every house fk their women and eat the best.
    our culture is at risk everywhere.but u have to loose something to get something.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Art for Art sake, money for GOD’s sake.

    Plato believed that some where in heaven there is a P E R F E C T copy of everything. He felt that people who had a heightened sense of imagination were able to see, or visualise what the PERFECT object in heaven looked like. They then REPLICATED/MIMICKED that object on earth. In other words drew or made. “Plato saw the changing physical world as a poor, decaying copy of a perfect, rational, eternal, and changeless original. The beauty of a flower, or a sunset, a piece of music or a love affair, is an imperfect copy of Beauty Itself”. He, there fore, all but banished artists from the REPUBLIC. His view was that man should work towards achieving PERFECTION and IDEAL, and not draw or make a cheap replica of it.

    In Islam – or as much of it as I understand – there is a similar concept, which says only GOD has the ability to create FORMS. Man should therefore not try and make imperfect FORMS/BEINGS. For the sake of brevity, I surmise. In Islam all form of REPRESENTATIVE art is forbidden. Drawing of human or even animal form is forbidden. There is hardly any Islamic art which shows people and or animals. Most of Islamic art is abstract, geometric, etc.

    So Islam is not the only Philosophy which prohibits the drawing of pictures. I am glad to say that Hindu, Christian and other philosophies do not have any such prohibitions.

    Discussion about cartoons of Mohammad, and M. F. Hussien’s painting of Sita needs to be discussed within this context.

    Firstly, M. F. Hussein is a Muslim by birth not by choice and he is not an Islamic artist. He may have painted an unacceptable form of Sita, but he is not the only one to have painted Ram and/or Sita. One can buy these religious posters on almost any pavement in Delhi. So if he is guilty of anything then it is of bad taste or indifference to other peoples religious sensitivities. He has not BROKEN ANY TABOO. M.F. Hussien is a Secular Muslim and not an Islamic zealot.

    Whilst one can argue that millions of Muslims are imperfect Muslims because they take Photographs, and probably draw pictures of animals etc. That is very likely true. A staunch Muslim will call such people as hypocrites.

    However, the world as a whole has respected the taboo of drawing the likeness of Mohammad himself. In that respect the Danish Cartoons broke that taboo and the violence that followed is a reaction to that. In other words the proposition is, be a bad Muslim if you want to, take pictures or draw animals, we much rather you did not, but if you did we will not react violently, but leave our prophet out of this.

    So I do not buy this argument that because Hussein is unable to draw Mohammd in Qatar, which he is religiously prohibited to draw any where, then he should not be allowed to draw Sita/Lakshmi either.

    The two scenarios are not equivalent and those who force that comparison are doing so for cheap political points.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi Firstly, M. F. Hussein is a Muslim by birth not by choice and he is not an Islamic artist.

    —- a child is born with out any religion. parents force their religion on child, and after that its the personal choice to follow it, which he does, so you cannot say, not by choice after adulthood.

    he is not an Islamic artist.
    — but you said, muslims hv limitations on what they can draw, which he is following religiously, so how can you say he is not an islamic artist. in fact his thinking / art is limited by islam & he is 100% islamic artist.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @One can buy these religious posters on almost any pavement in Delhi.
    — nude ones ?

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi Art for art’s sake, money for God’s sake — wrong example for m.f.h.

    Gimme a country where I can be free
    Don’t need the unions, buryin’ in me
    Keep me in exile the rest of my days
    Burn me in hell but as long as it pays

    Gimme a country where I can be free —– qatar with sharia a free country ???
    his art / thinking is still limited by religion, so no use going to any free country , even sweden.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ravi-

    As usual, you are veering off.

    Nobody questioned MF Husain’s artistic freedom. He can draw anything.
    However, the discussion was on “intolerance”. You said you ddi not know why people are intolerant, that the country is becoming intolerant.
    Obviously many Hindus will be upset if they see Sarawathi, their godess of education and music, painted nude copulating with a lion.
    Mf Husain should have been sensitive to this; and it is a nonsensical argument to connect this to country;s intolerance.
    And, rightfully so, many question, when Muslims march against a Satanic Verses or Taslima, why nobody talks about that expression as intolerance..
    As Mr Hegde wrote, can anybody draw the Prophet ffully clad? (MFH will not, and it is understandable). Can anybody draw Fatima in jinnat with animalsl? And if somebody draws these pictures, and obvioulsly when violence and death follow, will it be called intolerance of Muslims?

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    any killing is bad. At a mob level it is easy to understand how a godhra will trigger a larger riot. Godhra is heinous

    S.SINGH U KNOW THIS IS LIE.RIOT WAS PREPLANNED.elections were close.ram gundaas kidnapped the daughter of a tea-seller.so 30-40 women were protesting.fire started from inside .
    u are not brhmn why u are lying.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    raw, cia, mossad, jews, zionist , hindu, brahmin, kaffir plot i think

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    dont change the fact.ghodhra fire came from inside.u people are biggest liar of world.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram
    train was burnt by muslims,

  • raj

    @ravi, So I do not buy this argument that because Hussein is unable to draw Mohammd in Qatar, which he is religiously prohibited to draw any where, then he should not be allowed to draw Sita/Lakshmi either.

    — an artist can draw anything he wants, his mind can imagine nude sita, but when he thinks of his god, he does not paint, he does self censorship. what happend to his free thoughts. his religion is more important than free thinking , art . what about respect to other religious people, and you say he is secular.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raj

    Did I not cover this….

    “So if he is guilty of anything then it is of bad taste or indifference to other peoples religious sensitivities. He has not BROKEN ANY TABOO. M.F. Hussien is a Secular Muslim and not an Islamic zealot.”

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi,
    first he did a nude, hindus protested that , he did not stop , but kept on drawing nudes….
    so its ok as long as no taboo is broken. but i thought insulting is also taboo…
    what about meenaxi lyrics, is it also taboo breaking….
    islamic apologist….

    [Reply]

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    What utter nonsense you talk Ravi- you said- ‘However, the world as a whole has respected the taboo of drawing the likeness of Mohammad himself. In that respect the Danish Cartoons broke that taboo and the violence that followed is a reaction to that’

    You talk rubbish. A total diaarhoea of words and a constipation of thought. No one in the world ever decided that no one was to draw the prophet. Europe and USA are free entities and if they want to draw the prophet, it is their bloody choice. At worst the Danish guy is unwise, at best the people who go on rampages and kill in far off lands as a result of this are savages.

    You will go to ridiculous lengths to apologise for muslim radicals. Read this-
    Pl do not draw the face of our prophet or we will kill. (Ravi is trying to justify that)
    Pl do not draw the bare buttocks of Sita ma or we will take you to court. (reasonable I say, I finally located the images today and I say they are offensive)
    Like it was said before, Ravi you are too clever by half. A biased ranting individual full of hot air. Is there anyone here who actually supports you, most criticise you, whoever you are – an angry Pakistani or a sick dysfunctional pseudo secularist hindu

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    If artists in the USA and Europe are free then tell me why is that no one there has ever drawn the likeness of Mohammad.

    Please refrain from personal abuse. Two can play this game you sycophant arse licker.

    I will find you in Havelock Road if that is what it takes.

    ram autar Reply:

    nudity and vulgarity are integral part of hinduism.why u get angry when a muslim show but very happy if a hindu.hinduism is not islam or christianity.KAMA SUTRA is the only gift rhis thought has given to human race.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Ravi-

    You are partially correct. It is an issue of bad taste and lack ofs ensitivity. However, he went on pushing this – first it was nangi Bharat Mata, then nangi Sita, and then nangi Goddess Saraswathi (with a lion).

    He has broken taboo. Nobody has drawn nude Rama or Sita or Krishna or Laxmi or Jesus., whether scriptures explicitly prohibit or not. For that matter, Indian scriptures do not prescribe dos and donts.

    Muslim apologists always bring “what about those nude statues in Khajuraho and other temples”.. Those are just nude statues – not nude statue of Laxmi or Rama.

    MF Husain definitely is not an Islamist Zealot. But he is not a secular Muslim either. If so, he should have drawn the prophet, Ali etc with equal passion like he drew Sia and Saraswathi.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hinduism is not religion,Brahma’s lust: (1) According to a fable of Hindu religion Brahma acted as a priest to officiate the marriage of god Paramasiva with Parvathi. W hen Parvathi went round the sacred fire (omakundam) she held the end of the apron cloth with her left hand before going round. It enabled Brahma to have a clear look at the Parvathi’s thighs. On seeing the thighs, Brahma became a victim of lust. Brahma’s semen poured out. Brahma left the semen in a vessel near the sacred fire. Immediately Agasthiar was born.

    (2) When Parvathi came around the sacred fire again, Brahma once again relished her thighs and he once again became a victim to lust and semen poured out once again. This time he left the semen on the green plants, creepers and trees. This time a number of saints (rishis) were born in no time. Of them Valkilliyathe was one.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    So, what is your point, Ram?

    Balwinder Sandhu Reply:

    let me paraphrase that and see if people agree with me-
    In 2011, Europe and USA are free entities and if they want to draw the prophet, it is their choice, it is their country. At worst the Danish guy is unwise, but the people who go on rampages and kill in far off lands as a result of this are savages.

    Read this-
    Pl do not draw the face of our prophet or we will kill. (Ravi is trying to justify that)
    Pl do not draw the bare buttocks of Sita ma or we will take you to court. (reasonable I say, I finally located the images today and I say they are offensive)
    Everyone pl vote

    ram autar Reply:

    balwinder when brhmns will leave india and go back to their country of origin.and allow us to sleep in peace.

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    zionist propaganda ?

    shan Reply:

    @Raj , this is known as one for the goose , another for the gander.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Shan
    I was trying to avoid rising to your bait but your comments about us Sikhs are outrageous, like your generalisations about Sri Lnkans and Tamils. Your comments are too insulting and disgusting to repeat- Sikhs are bootlickers etc.
    Lets just say that the freedom that you have to live as a free citizen of India has a lot to do with the sacrifices made by the Sikhs in the freedom struggle. We constituted 1/3 of the Indian Army at one stage and representsed 20% of the people imprisoned by the British. The affluence of the Sikh community, of which you appear to be jealous, is achieved through hard work.
    If you really live in Kent, can I welcome you to the new Gurudwara in Southall, a suitably grand structure where you can partake of an excellent langar EVERYDAY.
    I have serious doubts that you are a doctor- for you lack the sobriety and dignity in your thoughts and utterances. Balwinder

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @sandhu, as it happens i live in an area which has an overwhelming sikh population. I am not generalising, sikhs have many virtues like they are hard working , women folks go out to work , as a group have massive cohesion , but because having seen them from close quarters and not being a hypocrite , and coward I had to make those comments based on first hand experience. Domestic violence is rife , I am a surgeon and have seen many patients , and heard innumerable account of DRINK related and extramarital affair related and mother in law related VIOLENCE.
    Next is corruption , just do a survey of last five years , all the people caught in immigration racket, drugs, are MOSTLY with surnames bains, dhillon etc.As for tamils this is also a personal observation , not generalising ,but then again exception proves the rule. Strange you forgot to notice I havent spared my own people whom I have called INCORRIGIBLE. Then I am a professed Rational humanist, emotion and political correctness does not cloud my judgement. Oh yes are you aware how the SEPOY MUTINY was crushed by the Brits , there weren’t many white soldiers on ground , do some research , you will have some sobering lesson.

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Just picked up another of Ravi’s pearls. He said – ” Children of Somali refugees, though Muslim, are very keen on education,”
    Unfortunately, undereducation is rife in the Somali youth and many have taken to gang and knife crime in a big way. Again the man Ravi is way off the mark. Why the hell he pontificates on things he knows nothing of, trying to minimise the shortcomings and evils in radical muslim societies, God only knows. Ravi, we live here in the UK AND WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING OF.

    Pl read-
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5029390.stm – ….Headline after headline has talked about Somali crime gangs terrifying communities….

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6999929.ece – ….STUDENTS from some of Britain’s top universities are travelling to Somalia to fight with a terrorist group linked to Al-Qaeda

    http://www.geog.ucl.ac.uk/research/mobility-identity-and-security/migration-research-unit/pdfs/SYDRC%20May%20conference%20report.pdf
    London Somali forum set upto to tackle radicalisation, crime and poor education in Somalis

    Ravi, this is now embarrssing, take a break. Can count at least 12 persons above who have mildly or majorly criticised your rants. The only person who supports you is ramavtarpakistani, who is funny but imbecilic. Are you proud of that ??

    [Reply]

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    Okay, Ravi good question from you . You ask- “” If artists in the USA and Europe are free then tell me why is that no one there has ever drawn the likeness of Mohammad.”"”

    For the simple reason Ravi that they do not want to end up like Rushdie (on the run for 10 years) or like Theo Gogh (shot by an Islamic terrorist in broad daylight in Amsterdam, the killer then also tried to decapitate him)

    Pl do give us one of your long monologues on this and try and justify it.
    Sorry, did not abuse you before. Spoke to you just like I speak to the muslim hotheads here in London when they spout bullshit- and I am fond of them , these misguided youth

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    So for the last 700 years people have been afraid to draw Mohammad, in case they are treated like Salman Rushdie.

    Islam arrived in India not much after it started in the Middle East.

    It was knocking on the door of Southern Spain about 400 years ago. The magnificent Alhambra is a testimony to Islamic architecture. So someone somewhere must have drawn Mohammad, and if any such a drawing ever existed it would have acquired notoriety, then I am sure we would have heard about it.

    The plain fact is purely as a voluntary restraint, artists do not depict Mohammad because they know it is taboo. Contrast that with Leonardo DaVinci’s Last Supper and Trillions of pictures of Baba Nanak, with reverentially shut eyes. Tell me if in this FREE WORLD, you have ever seen Mohammad’s likeness.

    It will be a sad day when you learn to think. If you were less hasty and tried to understand the argument being built with an open mind rather than jump on the Hindu Fundo bandwagon and start calling me childish names, you will find that your your Langar – minus the haunmey – will taste much better.

    See if you can narrate the Shabad “Sagal duar ko chard ke, gayo tuharo duar”. Sing it in the tune of “Teri rahon mein kharde hain dil dham ke, hum hain divane tere naam ke”

    You will find a couple of verses in there that are awfully inspiring.

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    @ravi, If artists in the USA and Europe are free then tell me why is that no one there has ever drawn the likeness of Mohammad.
    —-is it, a quick search list a few 100 sites with mo depection, done by muslims.
    depictions had not been prohibited until the 16th or 17th century and they are never condemned in the Koran.
    http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
    http://facesofmohammed.an3.es/
    http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/
    http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/misc_mo/

    @ravi, artists do not depict Mohammad because they know it is taboo.
    — now you talk like mulla / pseudo secular, stop making assumption / apologising for muslims
    The Qur’an does not explicitly forbid images of Muhammad. In Islamic art, some visual depictions only show Muhammad with his face veiled, or symbolically represent him as a flame; other images, notably from Persia of the Ilkhanate, and those made under the Ottomans, show him fully.
    Most Shi’a scholars accept respectful depictions and use illustrations of Muhammad in books and architectural decoration, as have Sunnis at various points in the past.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

    Prophet Muhammad & Ali Shown in a Movie, But No Protests by Muslims
    http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=274

    Incorrectly Fashioned Mohammed Ilustration
    This image is a rare colored Renaissance print showing Mohammed at court, with wildly inaccurate fashions.
    http://mohammedpics.com/?p=91

    — as usual, they threatned , wiki, but,
    Wikipedia considered but rejected a compromise that would allow visitors to choose whether to view the page with images.[35] The Wikipedia community has not acted upon the petition.[38] The site’s answers to frequently asked questions about these images state that Wikipedia does not censor itself for the benefit of any one group.[39]

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    well now art my favourite topic. it is bizarre this business of not being able to draw Mo. Apparently you can draw Mo but only the torso below the neck. this is again a TWISTED interpretation.apparently he said do not worship me for i am an illiterate man , whom god has chosen to speak through. Now If one draws without worshipping should be okay , then again DEBATE and ARGUMENT is forbidden in JIHAD FACTORY. In fact if one reads the hadith by Muslim , there are mind blowing passages about THE SEX LIFE OF MO, nobody has any right to protest , because it is not a kaffir’s defamation ploy, but stuff written in stone or ?parchment.like ayesha saying prophet has the virility of thirty men.Or prophet saw his adopted son’s wife in a particular sitution and swiftly proceeded to annul the marriage so that he could marry zeenat. When locals protested , AS THIS WAS AGAINST THE PREVAILING CUSTOM OF ARABIA he swiftly pulled off a revelation whereby allah says when prophet does anything it has allah’s blessing. As for hussain HOW ABOUT DRAWING AYESHA IN HER CARNAL APPEAL.There should not be any hadith stricture in the way.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mf hussain should draw carnal of following,in hindu taj educated and aartist has to run away,

    hindu bhagwans are dirty why u loww grade people compare hinduism (the most idioticreligion)with judaism christianity and great islam, Rishis – Born to

    8. Vashistar – Urvasi

    9. Naradar – Washer woman

    10. Kadanasalliyar – Widow

    11. Madankar – Cobbler woman

    12. Mandaviyar – Frog

    13. Kangaeyar – ***

    15. Sounagar – Dog

    16. Ganathar – Owl

    17. Sugar – Paroot

    18. Jambuvantar – Bear

    19. Aswathaman – Horse

    This is the greatness of the Hindu rishis and their births. I think the people of the Barbarian era would at least be more intelligent than our Dravidian people. The history of our forefathers and rishis is disgusting and demeaning. They are responsible for our Dravidian degradation and disgrace. Now let us pass on to other gods.

    As per one Hindu mythology Mahavishnu and Parameswaran both males, fall in love with each other, cohabit and produce a male child which is being worshipped by the Hindu orthodox people even now, as Sastha or Iyappan, or Harihara Puthran.

    Iyappa: Again it is stated clearly that Mahavishnu fell in love with another Brahma rishi called Naradar and produced not one child but 60 babies. 60 years of the Hindus from Prabava are named after the 60 children of Brahma.

    These episodes do not stop with Mahavishnu. We are told of interesting vulgarities about Mahavishnu’s wife called Mahalakshmi. It seems Lakshmi saw a beautiful horse and instantly fell in love with the horse. Vishnu, the knower of all things, came to know about this matter. He immediately changed his wife Lakshmi, into a mare and he himself became a horse. The Vishnu and Lakshmi enjoyed. They did not give birth to a foal, but a human being was born to them. He was named Eka Veeran.

    Now let us take into consideration the truths said about the greatness of Devendiran, the king of the devas. Once the king Devendiran happened to see a lady named Parisadam, she was the dutiful wife of a rishi. He wanted to have intercourse with her. He said that he had a great love for her. She replied that she has neither love for Indiran nor could she betray her husband. Indiran was frustrated. He was determined to achieve his object. Some time later the rishi performed Aswamedha yaga wherein his wife Parisadam had to insert the penis of the horse into her womb, as a ritual. Indiran seized this as the best opportunity. He somehow entered inside the male organ of the horse and accomplished his long felt desire. Indiran spoilt Parisadam forcibly against her wishes.

    I have enlightened you with great restraint, the details regarding Brahma, Rishis, Devas and their king to enable you to learn something about them as is authoritatively stated in the Manu’s code

    raj Reply:

    @hey ram,
    cia, mossad, usa, zionist conspiracy.

  • Balwinder Sandhu

    re painting mohd- I was only making the point for the last 25 years or so. The world is a global village and these muslim hotheads are everywhere. Also with ppl like Ayotallah emerging on the global scene and an entire country like Iaran and then the whole bloody ummah getting involved, I would not be at all surprised if no one dares to paint mohd.

    You raised a good point- Why did no one paint him before- maybe no one was really bothered. Certainly in India no one would have dared because of people like Jehangir and Aurangzeb breathing down their necks. The former is on historical record quite casually and cheerfully ordering death by cutting off limbs to robbers in his court, while European and Arab historians sat by.

    Pl dont say the mughals were not like that. Three of our gurus were martyred by them, with one actually tortured by burning sand before death- once again the lovely Jehangir.
    Not that I am a fan of Rushdie’s deed but that is another story. Some other time

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Three of our gurus were martyred by them, with one actually tortured by burning sand before death- once

    the above incidence was result of personal rivalry between chandu khatri of lahore(holding high post in mughal darbar)e and yr guru.
    moghuls like anyother rulers fought with those who tried to destablize india.ur gurus were also savage and brutal.

    regarding painting ,mf hussain is wrong should come back to india and face court.but if the same paintings made by others and he is peresecuated because he is muslim then it is wrong.
    why u compare hinduism with christianity or islam.nudity or extra-marital sex is not sin in hinduism.
    most of my friends have naked paintings in their homes.

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @ravi, don’t miss this, must see

    http://www.jesusandmo.net/

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    -:)-

    [Reply]

  • raj

    @ravi, If artists in the USA and Europe are free then tell me why is that no one there has ever drawn the likeness of Mohammad.
    — if they do so, this is what happens

    U.S. Supreme Court depicts Muhammad
    Protesters of cartoons insist Islam forbids any image of prophet

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=34686

    The stone sculptures of 18 lawgivers, from Hammurabi to John Marshall, are meant to signify the law’s foundation in a stable society. Included is Moses with the Ten Commandments.

    The artwork, which is high above the justice’s mahogany bench, was designed by sculptor Adolph A. Weinman for the building, which opened in the 1930s. Muhammad is between Charlemagne and Justinian.

    — the truth is, they hv terrorised people from doing so,

    [Reply]

    raj Reply:

    and guess what,

    Indian Muslims rioted on Thursday to protest a US Supreme Court decision to keep a sculptured frieze of the Prophet Mohammed.

    Indian police used tear gas and batons to disperse protesters who attacked a police patrol in Srinagar in Kashmir state. More than a dozen rioters were injured. “More than a dozen stone-pelting incidents were reported from (neighborhoods in) Srinagar,” a police spokesman said

    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=4499

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raj

    Thank you. Interesting, I read the link you provided and it puzzled me as to how the following conclusion ….

    — the truth is, they hv terrorised people from doing so,

    Was drawn by you.

    Keep looking

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    My enemy’s enemy is my friend.

    Yesterday, Balwinder posted the following:

    1. Balwinder Sandhu says:
    February 10, 2011 at 6:30 pm
    Dear Shan
    Thank you for your comment, you are partially right. But the fact remains that EDL and BNP have actively tried to court the Indian hindus and Sikhs RECENTLY and their idiot leaders like Griffin have even gone on record to say that Indians have contributed.
    Yes, the average EDL moron may not know the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, but they are guided by their leaders who direct them to the muslim troublespots.

    Here is the reality:

    1. The English Defence League is not recruiting Sikhs or Hindus, it is Hindu’s & Sikhs, who are joining the EDL.

    2. Those who are joing it are in a TINY minority, as information in the links below will show.

    …..http://www.thesamosa.co.uk/index.php/news-and-features/society/210-exclusive-f-the-pakis-meet-the-edls-anti-racist-poster-boy.html

    …..http://uaf.org.uk/2010/07/edl-attack-on-dudley-hindu-temple-confirmed/

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    missed a part of what I intended to post.

    …..http://www.sikhsangat.org/2011/01/sikh-and-hindu-groups-slam-edl/

    The EDL is likely to use these misguided individuals to attack Muslims and once that job has been completed, focus their attention on Sikhs and Hindu’s. The simple reason is that EDL is a white supermist organisation.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ravi kya sikh itnne hee idiot hote hain.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Kuch Kuch

    ram autar Reply:

    ravi ,villian is beaten at end.just wait.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    It will be a long wait! The fact is that Muslims do not integrate, do not contribute, are burden to tax payers.. Same story in France, Germany.

    Although you will be happy to see them attacking Hindus and Sikhs, it is not going to happen unless the world economy collapses. Then it will be a free fall, everybody killing everybody else.

    Mr Ajay Banga, a turban wearing Sikh, who was recruited by citibank while he was working for Unileve, is still wearing his turban as the CEO of Master Card.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    ravi did u heard,

    The slave of the jews, bootlicker of America and pet dog of Europe is no more.[
    Long live Egypt , long live the Egyptian people.

    hosni mubarak has become a history.[

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Dear Ravi

    Balwinder underestimates EDL- they are a very tiny minority, but they are dangerous. Pure skinheads- all snarling muscle and no brain.
    They are also new on the UK scene and feed off the outrageous antics of the Islamic zealots in the UK, of which there are dozens.
    But I also notice your lovey dovey comment about the Somalis being muslims and being keen on education. The sardar has already punctured your dreamworld by pointing out the total opposite. I can only confirm that the trauma unit of Royal London hosp and the Homerton hospital, both in East london have reported a ten fold recent increase in knife crime. The 3 commonest gangs they encounter are afro-caribean, pakistani-bangladeshi and somali.

    I am struggling to understand you Ravi. Why do you have this burning desire to deny evidence of islamic terrorism or fundamentalism, or to try and exagerate examples of hindu or sikh wrongdoing- a bizarre attempt to equate the two.
    It affects your objectivity and leads you to telling porkies which inevitably get caught out.
    Why?
    Is it so difficult to say sometimes you were wrong? Its not a big deal. As the Surd said above- The only person who supports you is ramavtarpakistani, who is funny but imbecilic. Are you proud of that ??

    Good night

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) , :) , ;) , :) , ;)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Going, Going, Gang

    So I understand “The sardar has already punctured your dreamworld by pointing out the total opposite.” This I assume is argument of the following style.

    Ravi says – Somali Muslim children are keen on education.

    Balwinder says – Somali’s are gangsters and are the third most notorious gangs in London.

    How the truth of what Balwinder says, contradicts what Ravi said has never been explained.

    His own Islamophobia is benumbing the Doctor.

    Once again just to make sure that the point being made is understood.

    1. Children of Chinese parents are excelling in educational achievements. London has Chinese gangs, in and around Gerrard Street.

    2. Sikh children are progressing in education, yet Southall had gangs called Holy Smokes, Shere Punjab, etc.

    3. In the 60s, the English were organised as gangs of Mods and Rockers.

    I can go on you know.

    So once again, Gangs are present in all societies, all religions, all cultures, all ages. They are not an exclusive element of Muslim Societies. Gangs are a small part of any community while the rest of that community gets on with improving themselves. This is as much true of Sikhs as it is of Muslims.

    The day Balwinder – the Langar fed nincompoop – can puncture my dream world has not been calenderised yet.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ravi- Chinese gangs have not bombed and created international terrorism.

    Sikh gangs, if there are any, have not created international terrorism. (I know you will bring up Kanishka)

    And, in my worldwide travels, I have never come across anybody using the term “Indian Gangs” (or for that matter Sikkh Gangs).

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Not sure what your point is.

    Please feel free to make it. Do not be shy.

    So where have I linked Gangs with Bombing. My point was trying to link Somali Gangs and their apparent lack of educational achievement. As pointed out by Balwinder.

    No please do not be backward in coming forward.

    So what is your view about the PRESENCE of GANGS and Educational Achievements of the remaining community members of that community.

    The point Balwinder was making was, Ravi is wrong about Somali’s being keen on education because they have gangs. Well so do Chinese and Sikhs, yet they are making educational progress.

    S Singh…Try again…..

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi has excellent analytical skills; however, he always has a “but”.

    If Mulims (obviously a small number) are committing worldwide Jehadism; instead of saying they are doing that, he immediately brings how hindus killed Budhists eons ago. As if that nullifies what is happening now.

    If Muslim educational level is bad; he says it is ok because Greeks in UK also are bad.

    If Muslims are generally orthodox and backward, he will say Indian hindus dont accept St Valentines day.

    If some Hindus feel offended by MF Husains nude painting of Saraswathi, it is inotlerance for him.

    If Saudi Arabia is suppressing freedoms, India is siuppressing freedoms in Kashmir.

    He has lost his capacity to view anything purely on its own merits without having to bring in India for every situation..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde u are the most idiot coming on this blog.india has largest number of hindu prostitutes in the world.correct urself.india has the maximum no.of illerate in the world.u r pointing finger on others.
    u are chutia no1.
    regarding mf hussain ,same painting is drawn millions of time by other hindu painter,why nobody speak.hinduism is not religion.why u equate this to christianity and islam.nudity and vulgarity is part vedic cult.even word hindu is arabic.
    first u see ur house then comment on others.u were the a$$ licker and boot polisher of british empire.more 50 %of ladies are enemic.delhi is the corruption and rape capital of world.calcutta mumbai and triputi house the maximum number of prostitute in the world.

    suppression of women is everywhere.in saudia it i least.read the statement of wife of vice-president of india yesterday.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Thank you.

    My role is not to deny almost evry thing you guys point out, but to suggest that yest it is ture, but so is this…..and that……

    THEY are bad, but that does not mean WE are not bad too.

    Criticising them is politics, criticisng SELF is getting on the road to improvement.

    Simlpy providing *** bits of facts here and a fact there and say “there your arguement is wrong” is like indluging in school sixth form debate.

    Prostituition does not have any religion, it has its roots in poverty. Poverty in India is among ALL comunities.

    For centuries women have been deprived of their FULL set of rights in all societies and all religions.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi-

    you cannot make sweeping statements like women have been deprived of heir FULL set of rights in ALL (caps mine) societies and all religions -

    In my little corner of Kerala, among Nairs, women were the only ones, from time immemorial, who had property rights; women could choose whom they wanted to marry or not, and women could divorce their men.
    I bet there are similar groups in various parts of India and the world.

    ram autar Reply:

    corner of Kerala, among Nairs, women were the only ones, from time immemorial,

    u know the reasons GOPI.nairs are HARIJANS.means illegitimate sons of brhmns.brhmns were allowed to fk their women at their will.even in front of husbands.hence they are not sure of their parentage.so called harijan.brhmn represents HARI .agar punditjee kee slipper bahar hoge to pati jee 1 ghantee ke bbad ayenge.so propewrty used to be transferred to women.as father was not known but surely one of the brhmn.as they have brhmncl blood ,their caste too was elevated.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    If your intention was to point out that there are matriarchic societies where women have FULL rights, then I accept that point.

    ram autar Reply:

    freedom fighters are called terrorists.true terrorist in this world are zoinists and their satanic brhmncl brothers in india.these two bstrds are in root of all problems all over the world.muslim terrorism is reaction of state terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I forgot to reply to an ipmortant question in here.

    YES I AM PROUD OF RAM AUTAR.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ravi,

    on pravda read this article,

    How to create a crisis and steal a nation

    u will understand many things.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Shan
    Forget about drawing Mohd, even naming a teddy bear Mohd can land you in jail. Happened to an English teacher who had VOLUNTEERED to work in Sudan. In an innocent class project she named a teddy bear Mohd and was arrested and almost put on trial.
    MPs had to be dispatched from UK to finally bail her out- this happened in 2010 I think.
    I now await Ravi’s defence of this. Either that or he will launch a random missile mentioning some anti Indian fact.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Forget about drawing Mohd, even naming a teddy bear Mohd can land you in jail. Happened to an English teacher who had VOLUNTEERED to work in Sudan. In an innocent class project she named a teddy bear Mohd and was arrested and almost put on trial

    she must have known the respect and importance of prophet mohd.must have faced atleast an year in has done this purposely.muslims never use any deregotary adjectives for jesus.only harami zoinist and their more harami satanic cousins are doing all this non-sense.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Shan/Dr Mishra

    A blog on Indian muslims has turned into a discussion on all muslims in the UK! To bring it slightly closer on track, what are your experiences about muslims in UK originating from India?

    FYI the few indian origin muslims in Australia are as well adjusted as any other good immigrant community.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    syed keep shan and misra on ur foot.say we are like this.hence run away and fk off.u have to change not we have.we r feeding half india.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed, there are not many ,in fact very few, MOSTLY DOCTORS, and they are from a different planet, i have seen pakistani doctors trying to cosy up to them ,but found them from a different planet. They are highly successful .in fact muslims from uganda ,ie gujratis are poles apart from pakistanis and bangladeshis. CULTURE IS WHAT DEFINES A PERSON , WHERE YOU GROW UP though religion has massive influence WHEN THAT INFLUENCE IS ALLOWED TO TAKE HOLD.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    short history of hindu suppression of india and indians.

    syed the following is for ur knowledge,

    have been asked to speak on the “History of oppression” in India.

    .

    , I will confine myself to the oppression on Muslims.

    As a student of history, I can tell you that Muslims of India did not come from Arabia, Turkey, Iraq or Iran.

    Barring some 10% or so, the entire Muslim population of the undivided India is indigenous. This is a historical fact.

    You are all our blood brothers. Look at my colour, my nose, my eyes and yours — all look alike. (cheers).

    Then how did you become Muslims?

    WORST FORM OF RACISM
    This is because you could not tolerate the Brahminical oppression flowing out of its caste system­ ­— the worst form of racism in the world.

    Because Islam does not believe in racism and assures justice, equality and brotherhood, all of you embraced Islam and got yourself liberated. Congratulations.

    Our only complaint is when you went into a beautiful house, you forgot your blood brothers, Dalits.

    Muslims form about 15 to 20% of India’s 1,300 millions. In fact Muslim population is more than the Hindu population which is 15%.

    And yet Muslims are called “minorities”. This a big joke. Muslims have been cheated by calling you minorities.

    Muslims are not “minorities” Muslims are the country’s biggest majority religion — one Quran, one god, one masjid, one law, one religion. (cheers).

    Besides, Islam is a great liberating religion. The Brahminical rulers are jealous of you. That is why India’s oppressed castes and communities embraced Islam.

    And this so-called Hinduism, which is nothing but Brahminism, became weak. Hinduism is not the name of this religion. It is not even a religion. Supreme Court has said this.

    BRAHMIN TRICK
    The micro-minority Brahminical forces are deeply worried that more and more oppressed, persecuted Dalits will get converted to Islam to seek brotherhood.

    And their bogus Brahminism will simply disappear. That is why the ruling Brahminists, a micro-minority of less than 3%, are furious with Islam and Muslims.

    So to over come this serious problem of Islam, which is not allowing them to get even sleep in the night, they have adopted an ingenious trick. What is this trick?

    This trick is called “hinduisation” of the non-Hindu SC/ST/BCs – 65%.

    As this ruling Brahminists have all the wealth, the media, their temples and gods with the govt., judiciary and police to support them, they have manufactured a weapon called “Islamic terrorism”.

    But Rahul Gandhi, who is called as our future PM, says “Hindu terrorism” is posing greater danger to India than any other threat.

    He did not blame “Islamic terrorism”. His opinion has come in today’s paper. It is a front page story, which all of you must have read.

    I will elaborate on what this “Islamic terrorism” is. My friend, S.M. Mushrif, IPS officer and former IG of police, has written a book, Who Killed Karkare, in which he has elaborately discussed about “Hindu terrorism” and how this terrorism is actively supported by the govt. itself. The book is kept outside for sale.

    The “Hindu terrorists” are manufacturing bombs and targeting important places to put the blame on the innocent Muslims.

    MADANI ROTTING IN JAIL
    My friend Abdul Nasser Madani of Kerala is rotting in Bangalore jail for the past six months.

    If the police have evidence against him, why can’t they file the charges and put him on trial?

    Earlier, he was in Coimbatore jail for 8 years. Supreme Court itself asked the govt. to put him on trial.

    The police had nothing. Finally he was released.

    Hundreds and thousands of young Muslims are rotting in different jails for years without any charge.

    My son is the head of the Amnesty International in London. The ruling class is furious with the Amnesty. They are not allowing him to open their office in India.

    MUSLIMS NOT GETTING ANGRY
    But the problem is the Muslims are not getting angry. In Kashmir, Muslims are getting angry fighting and dying.

    In Palestine, they are fighting. In Iraq, Afghanistan they are fighting and drove the Americans out.

    But in India the Muslims who are having such a glorious, such a powerful religion — ruled India for 1000 years — have simply surrendered to the Hindu terrorists who are destroying our country itself.

    The Jews of the West and the “Jews of India” have converted India into a vast battlefield and made this a beggar country.

    This is brief in the history of Hindu oppression.

    [Sp

    [Reply]

  • Dr Dev Mishra

    Dear Syed
    Very good question- Indian muslims in UK, how do they fare? There is little objective evidence looking at this subgroup.
    I used to say with chest thumping pride that Indian muslims are not like the rabble rousing fundamentalists that Pakistani communities abound in. And then the crazy Ahmed came around from Bangalore and tried to bomb an airport in Scotland.
    We were deflated- he was a doctor and son of a doctor, he let all of us down , particularly the Indian muslims. But, happy to say that perhaps he was a one off, a bad egg.
    Having got the bad news out of the way, I can say that otherwise it is good news for Indian muslims. Generally, they are as peaceful as the other Indians. In fact the Gujrati muslims are perhaps less prone to alcoholism and petty violence than the Sikhs- I am sure Balwinder will not like to hear that. Most Gujrati muslims do share some of the gentle passive characteristics of their Gujrati brothers.
    But educationally, there is a small gap- like the gap in India where if muslims in good areas in a big city are as good as anyone else, but in a backward town get ghettoised unlike the hindus in the same backward town. I hope that made sense.
    I will write more later about interesting social dynamics, particularly in the second generation.
    Dr Mishra, India and UK

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Both parents of the Scotland bomber were doctors. Not only that, they had a hospital in bangalore too. In this case, it was not poverty that drove him to bomb Glasgow airport!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde so what for us owning hospital is nothing.we have ruled world.values are fr above than hospital.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Dev Mishra

    Now Syed, what happens to the second generation Indian muslim- that is a very interesting dynamic. As long as the parents keep THE CULTURAL HERITAGE INTACT- these boys and girls do well. Cultural heritage could be Bollywood, trips to India, Indian literature, social links with hindus and sikhs in UK- a lot of the second gen Indians in UK/US have identity problems anyway, and here there is a real danger that the young muslim gravitates towards the more fundamentalist muslim organisations which are a dime a dozen.
    When I interview young muslim doctors, a lot of their CVs mention membership of their med school MSA. Muslim students assoc. Sounds innocuous you say. But that is the first step to separateness, often the first step is a hijab or a long straggly beard without a moustache. Without exception, the first generation Indian parent is dismayed. They feel let down.
    That may be the first step. Some however go further. They become more religious in their practice and expression. The next rung up the ladder is radical politicisation on issues like Palestine, demanding special rights etc
    Dont know, but maybe 3% of second generation Indian muslims get a bit radicalised. Thus I always advocate keeping thier cultural heritage intact- BOLLYWOOD is the best medicine that I prescribe as a doctor !!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    in present circumstances,every muslim will become radicalized.
    we are muslims we have ruled the world taimur conquered 68 contries in his small liofe.for us justice and honesty is above ,evrything.life and death is not important.u bloody brhmns live to hurt and loot others.
    a doctor a son of doctor attacked airport.i dont know it is true or propaganda.ASEEMANAD PLANTED BOMBS ,POLICE CAUGHT MUSLIM DOCTOR.now languishing in jail.one sharma from kanpur was caught injecting hepetites injections to his patients.he killed 235 oatients in america.now in jail with 20 million dollar fine.after gujrat riots one hindu doctor gave hepatites injection to 57 muslim ladies.reward,now he is made minister.u bloody brhmns are evil evil and evil.u are good u left india.

    misra MEANS PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM MISR(PRESENT DAY EGYPT).ex-minister lalit narayan misra knew this well.on luxury trains to bihar he printed hellenic language.

    we muslims are best in character and actions.shan was talking of taxi drivers.even they ,in their personnal life are far better than me and u.i know atleast 3 taxi driver whose sons are frcs doctor.

    brhmns are curse for india.we should all pray for their early exit from our subcontinent.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    I watched with fascination the events unfolding in Egypt the last two weeks.

    Egyptians, the children of a proud civilization, achieved their freedom through non-violent means. It was a delight to see the idealistic, motivated youngsters claiming their country, hoping to achieve their aspirations.

    On a side note, I believe the crores of people who watched this on television must have formed a different and positive opinion about Muslims – that these youngsters are just like their children, the facebook generation comfortable in networking and being part of a global community, that these kids were well-behaved without an iota of violence, and that these kids did not shout the jehadi call to killings alla hu akbar.

    These Egyptian youngsters (and oldies too) have not only won freedom for Egypt; they have also shown the peaceful and good side of Islam hopefulluy changing some of the negative perceptions.

    I wish them well; I hope they take Egypt to its glory days!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    a military coup backed by americans removed pro-israeli corrupt dictator.this is bad news for israel.
    this also shows tension between israeli and american goverment on issue of illegal settlement in west bank.
    coming days are bad for everybody oil price may reach 110dollars soon.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Dev Mishra

    Now isnt that a surprise, Shan and I agreeing on something. But we have said the same thing about Gujrati muslims being progressive. Here, the dominant factor is the Gujrati way of life and enterpreunership, something that is difficult to train in a university but ios handed down generation to generation.
    syed your comments about the few Indian muslims in Australia doing well reflects the class divide. In general, USA and Australia took mainly the educated professional from the subcontinent and thus are immune from the problems of UK which took dirt poor ppl from Pak, Bdesh and India in the 50’s and 60s.
    Ramavtar- what a big surprise, in your last few posts you have FINALLY admitted to your muslim identity. A piece of advice friend, your posts just turns ppl against your community. If however, you contribute like Mirza, Shoeb and Syed above, you actually build bridges.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    mishra jee how can i remain silent,see our natioanl song vande matram,

    Vandemataram means:

    I bow before the idol of mother Durga shining in each and every temple…”

    Obviously this Durga is an idol. Islam is against idol worship. The ulema, therefore, has every reason to raise fatwa against the singing of Vandemataram by Muslims. I hail it unconditionally. None can adulterate or distort the truth. The original Vandemataram is a Muslim annihilation song sung in the march against Muslims by Bhavanandan, the main character of the Ananda Mutt, a novel written by a Brahmin terrorist, Bankim Chandra Chatterji. In the song he projects the rapiers raising hands of Durga ready to kill Muslims. He fills the novel with all sorts of venom and indignation against Muslims. I strongly protest this sting of poison fang. Hence here also Vandemataram is anti-Islamic to the core.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    shan,benoy,mishra,

    this is our standard,

    In a major embarrassment to India, Minister of External Affairs, SM Krishna on Saturday, committed a faux pas by accidently reading out Portuguese Foreign Minister’s speech in place of his own.

    Krishna went on to read the wrong speech for five minutes but rectified the error after an Indian official drew his attention.

    u laugh at others

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Ram, you are quite right , india isn’t the greatest country on planet earth , FAR FROM IT, and hindu society is not an epitome of virtues, BUT , atleast it is willing to admit and confront whereas islamic societies are CAPTIVE IN A TIME WARP.I am not tired of mentioning whatever one finds bizarre and incompatible with SCIENCE in Islam , IS FOUND IN ABUNDANCE IN EVERY RELIGION. But each and every society sans Islam has become LIBERALSECULAR AND DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY where there is FREEDOM to criticise religion.This has started in England circa 1568.that didn’t mean religion vanished from peoples life ONLY THAT IT CANNOT IMPOSE AND DICTATE AN INDIVIDUAL’S LIFE WHICH IT STILL DOES IN ISLAM.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr shan catholic christians were killers and murderers we are lucky that protestants ruled over.if u read history of islamic rule in spain and india now from khartoum to jakarta muslim society is open.by going to mosque we did not become btter than.others.there is no compulsion in islam.church was forced to go vatican because of their interfence in every walk of life.u have full right to criticize islam BUT NOT INSULT.ISLAMIC RULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE,barring saudi arabia,where they use islam as an instrument of suppression,even pakistan run on modewrn principle.
    i learned islam through experience.i find it good practical and good for society.now india is also
    introducing islamic banking or interest free economy,i hope this will give lot of relief to people.interest economy is in root of all evils of present day society.islamic banking serves the humanity ,interest banking system eats the humanity.like mahajan of village.
    hindu upper started reading english 2 generation before us so u got clerical jobs in their firms.they killed around 900000 muslims to control and rob india.hence we hate them even now.

    we are yet to decide whether laws to run the country should be divine or man made.muslim zoinists(brotherhood)could not capture power in egypt ,shows which way common people are.

    catholic church of medieval time was murder killer and butcher.we were never like.muslims ruled india but there was no exodus.all races and religions flourished.jews always prferred muslim rule to christian rule.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Na sudhar ne wala , andhere me baithey huye ,just THINK OF BLASPHEMY LAW, and think of human devolopement index in pakistan LOWEST IN THE WORLD.

    ram autar Reply:

    WARP.I am not tired of mentioning whatever one finds bizarre and incompatible with SCIENCE in Islam
    science flourished under islam.give me ur mail no i will send u the detailes of 1001 innovative invention s by muslims.700years before oxford started muslims had huge unversities from cordoba to bukhara from samarkand to baghdad.with proper science and technology nobody could built 330 meter high qutub minar.
    indian prefer dubai instead of delhi.many of my hindu friends prefer indonesia to india.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram, Ok, Muslims were and are the greatest scientists..Will you shut up for once!

    shan Reply:

    Have you forgot EMPIRE STATE BUILDING OR YOUR FAVOURITE DUBAI AL BURJ , wasn’t built with islamic science ,but with NEWTONIAN laws of mass , stress, force and all that flowed from it in CIVIL ENGINEERING.You does pakistan holds begging bowl to amrika as does Egypt.

  • ram autar

    benoy today china has threatened india,

    u should know,Just to satisfy the arrogance of the Brahminic bully — a micro-minority of 2% — can we choose to challenge China? If the empty-headed Brahminists want India to become a regional power, they must make India internally strong. With over 85% of the population on starvation diet, and the rulers totally corrupt, with every wing of the society collapsing, what will happen if it goes to challenge the rising super power China?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy waiting ur awnser

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    China ka tatta – Pakistan

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajiv ,tatta or tatti , that is SHIT.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Tatta means scrotum.
    I meant Tatta…Pakistani is already a shit…

  • D Mishra, UK

    2010 saw some of the worst atrocities on Ahmadiyas in Pakistan. This virus is now spreading worldwide. Indonesia, for long quoted as moderate has seen increasing radicalisation in the last 10 years.
    See this video of lynching of Ahmadiyas in Indonesia http://observers.france24.com/content/20110209-members-muslim-ahmadiyya-group-lynched-extremists-police-inaction-indonesia

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @mishra or panditji, rather than gloating on pakistan’s descent into anarchy , REFLECT ON MAOIST in india.there was a fascinating article in london The Times. For indian bloggers , apparently every recruit to the maoist cause has to have a COMPULSORY VASECTOMY as per party doctrine , this is because 40% recruits are FEMALE. This MIND BOGGLING IDEA HAS CHINA WRITTEN ALL OVER IT. AND MY PERSONAL FEELING IN CHINA IS ACTIVELY DOING WHAT PAKISTAN DOES IN KASHMIR VALLEY ONLY.there was a heart warming story of ramesh who joined Maoist , as he was an orphan , dirt poor , fell victim to the recruiters.however he was brought over to the mainstream ,the police gave him a job of a gardener , but his one request HIS VASECTOMY BE REVERSED.India has no dearth of capable surgeons , so went to RAIPUR and had it paid for in PRIVATE hospital. The operation was a success (internationally the success rate is only 30%), and ramesh and his erstwhile comrade has a daughter.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    There is not doubt that China is meddling in Indian matters and one of its chosen methods is to provide support to the Maoist groups in India. This is nothing new; it has been going on for several decades.

    However, in order to form a complete view of what is actually going on, one has to answer the following questions.

    1. Did China CREATE the Maoist insurgency in India? Or Is it just providing them support, because it sees it as a cheap and deniable way to get at India.

    2. If China did not CREATE the Maoist insurgency, then what are the factors that led to its creation, and why.

    In other words, it will be helpful to diagnose the UNDERLYING social issues before completing the diagnosis and prescribing a solution.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Blimey a pakistani appreciating an indian. It’s bit like the third person in a marriage. That third person can poison the marriage when there is underlying problem in the marriage. it’s bit like chicken and the egg.

  • Ravi

    Dr Dev Mishra

    I seem to have missed your message about Balwinder admitting that there are Chinese and Sikh gangs, just as an example, and that these communities are achieving high standards in education. So presence of Somali Gangs and their increasing interest in education are not mutually exclusive developments.

    So I guess you are too busy to read responses to the DUD MISSILES you fire.

    Your thought process – which is scarcely – better than that of a “patient etherised upon a table” is utterly incapable of diagnosing social issues with similar rigour as you presumably do in your surgery. That is because your training is limited to medical matters. I suggest you stick to medical matters.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Dear Ravi

    I dont read every comment on this thread, but on this occasion I will try and retrace my comments. When others proved beyond doubt that Indian hindus and sikhs along with Chinese grossly outperform ALL other communities in UK, YOUR HEART SHOULD HAVE FILLED WITH PRIDE.

    Instead, you tried to slip in a lot of buts and ifs, a lot of kintu and parantu. You came back with a rather lame- “”Somali children, although Muslim, are very keen on education”
    To which someone pointed out numerous statistics about how Somali teenagers form some of the most feared gangs in the UK.
    You are since then trying to claim that okay gangs exist but Somali kids are still keen on education. If you look at the link posted above, you will find that the govt is actually having to set up bodies to deal with SOMALI KIDS NOT PERFORMING WELL IN SCHOOLS- http://www.geog.ucl.ac.uk/research/mobility-identity-and-security/migration-research-unit/pdfs/SYDRC%20May%20conference%20report.pdf

    So, now you have it -Somali community has educational under achievement and exceedingly high teenage gang crime. They should have everyone’s support in abolishing this.
    Re Chinese and Sikh gangs, they are not even 0.001 % as lethal as the Afro or Muslim gangs.

    Educational underachievement in thousands of ghettoised muslim communities in India, Africa and Europe is a fact. Get over it.

    Like I said before- admitting you are wrong and obsessive in your rants is no big deal At least 12 ppl above have majorly criticised yr approach, only cutandpasteramavtar supports you. Not much of a record.
    Shalom

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dr Mishra

    Yes I have noticed, you are very fond of spouting gibberish, but not reading. A clear sign of egotistical busy body – which is what you are. A self-appointed pillock of the society.

    You came back with a rather lame- “”Somali children, although Muslim, are very keen on education”

    So how is this lame. How the fact Balwinder said there are Somali gangs – a dream puncturing observation.

    The clear indication is that you would support any one who will support your REACTIONARY view of the world.

    I SAW NO STATISTICS. Did they also provide statistics with regards to Somali Children in schools.

    If there are any, then lets have it.

    How many Somalis live in the UK. How many of them are in YOUTH GANGS. How many are in the Schools and what is their Attendance Record and what ADDED VALUE was recorded in their educational achievements. Until you have those, you are only exercising anti muslim prejudice.

    The fact – which is as plain as the Haemorrhoids on your ****** – is that you are an ISLAMOPHOBE who will twist any facts in order to support their anti Islam venom.

    From your own link – here are the details of some PROMINENT GANG MEMBERS FROM SOMALIA – Mohamed Aden Hassan is a PhD, Candidate at UCL with a focus on youth associations and family connections.

    Hussein M. Samater is a PhD, Candidate at UCL with an interest in diasporas and development.

    Mohamed Obsiye is a PhD, Candidate at KCL with a concentration in educational issues.

    From the Executive Summary:

    Somali youth actively participated in the conference. They felt that the conference was beneficial to them as it provided an opportunity to:

     Voice their concerns regarding various law enforcement activities.

     Discuss relevant cultural and religious aspects of life within a multicultural society.

     Demonstrate their socially active participation to the wider public.

     Familiarise themselves with different obstacles facing law enforcement through
    conference workshops and personal dialogue.

     Develop a better understanding of the role that the LSYF can play in the
    development of their common interest.

     Explore options for further engagement with other likeminded stakeholders.

    If your point is that UK Govt is trying to rehabilitate the Somali community, then that is true. In the 60s and 70s, Southall, Ealing, Bradford, etc were full of such organisations which were helping Indian Immigrants from all persuasions.

    Not sure what is the point you are trying to make. Apart of course from the obvious Isalmophobic one.

    “So, now you have it -Somali community has educational under achievement and exceedingly high teenage gang crime.” There is no doubt about that, and that is what Gangs do. I did not deny that before and do not deny it now. But tyhe Somali community is no more defined by its youth gangs, as Chiese, Sikh, Lithuainian, etc is.

    What I said is that the Somali community is keen on education. I guess you missed this from the conclusion

    “To create life chances and opportunities to your brothers and sisters that they so desire. We have to give them hope; we have to give them opportunities to benefit from education and to grow into real citizens for London.” If that is not keeness then I fail to see what is.

    “Educational underachievement in thousands of ghettoised muslim communities in India, Africa and Europe is a fact. Get over it.”

    Educational underachievement in thousands of Ghettoised DALIT/POOR HINDU communities in INDIA is a FACT, ACCEPT IT.

    “Like I said before- admitting you are wrong and obsessive in your rants is no big deal At least 12 ppl above have majorly criticised yr approach, only cutandpasteramavtar supports you. Not much of a record.”

    My record is not dependant upon popular votes from other reactionaries like you. The fact 12 people oppose me is a badge of honour and I am proud of it. This is not a election.

    Like I said before, diagnosing social issues is not a skill you have. Gob Shiting anti Islam venom is and even that you do irrationally.

    Purely religious explanations to social issues hardly exist, they are almost always the result of underlying secular issues.

    You see what you want to see, because you are allowing your anti Muslim prejudices get the better of your rationality.

    I am yet to see one original contibution from you.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Ravi,
    Opinions can differ and one has the right to ignore. But choosing to ignore Binoy’s comment, while demanding attention from Balwinder amused me. You are entitled to have your view on coach burning. But will that give the privilege of one calling another opinion jaundiced? (unless you prove how your view is superior to theirs).

    Muslim Ghettos : I checked. Cameroon’s speech; multiculturalism, resulting in communities leading parallel lives, was reported under the headline “Ban Muslim ghettos”. In that sense, he did not say those words literally. But he is again pointing fingers at Muslim community in his recent speech ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994 ), which indicates majority’s prejudice over a community struggling to integrate.
    It is difficult to say, riot in Oldham was strictly anti immigrant riot like Southall and not due to racial tension between communities. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1296007.stm The cohesion problem may not be an Islamic problem. Qoran might provide an escaping route for a person who anyway wanted to stay away from mainstream. A mere book cannot change ones psyche (may be I am underestimating its potential).

    Regarding Hussein:
    Your words; “The plain fact is purely as a voluntary restraint, artists do not depict Mohammad ”
    Even with sexually explicit sculptures on temples of Khajuraho, we never had picture or idols of our God and Goddess in nude. Doesn’t it show a voluntary restraint present in Hinduism as well? It was not the question of freedom. It was the question of sensitivity. Whenever a western company has released any Hindu God images which were felt offencive by the community, they have apologised and withdrawn. Hussein could have ended the matter similarly. Instead, he kept repeating his act.
    End of the day, Hussein’s incidence was not a friction between two religions. We don’t consider Hussein chose to draw it, because he was a Muslim. I feel, he is half mad. The episode was a clash between Hindus and “liberal group”. The liberal’s constant drumming for tolerance in Hinduism, simultaneously choosing to be quiet over Islam, made us point our finger at Islam’s rigidity. Otherwise, Muslims were never involved in the scene. They never rallied behind Hussein.
    I do support Muslims in their protest, if their prophet in painted as a terrorist, as long as it is civic.
    I always feel, it is the unbalanced liberalism which is dividing the communities.

    Lastly, I have no fancy of winning an argument at the cost of truth. I consider, loosing an argument for the truth is more gracious than winning.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Here is my response.

    1. I did not IGNORE any of Binoy’s remarks. All I said was that Cameron did not say the words he was ascribing to him. Further more, quoting a Tabloid head line is no proof.

    2. I have never ever said that there are no Muslim areas where the density of poulation can be calseed as Ghetto proportions. However, this very fact is not restricted to the Muslim community alone. In the past in the UK, there have been Iraish, Jewish, and need I repeat in Southall, Sikh ghettos. Feel free to dis agree with me.

    3. The third point about Smali’s being keen on education has been dealt with adequately here.

    4. As far as Hussien is concerned. I stand by my contention. Islam has been around for centuries and all we are able muster is TWO pieces of art. A fresco in the USA from the 1800’s and the Danish cartoons and their derivatives. That is because Islam is not a religion which relies upon GRAPHICS, it has a very developed caligraphic tradition.

    5. I am assuming that you did not ACTUALLY read what I wrote, which is not surprising. I did say that Hussien can be accused of being insensitive.

    I could not disagree with you more about Hussein’s motives or his mental state.

    What you fancy or not is your personal affair.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    What a plonker, islam has only calligraphy , so what is PERSIAN ART,what is MUGHAL ART , now dont start mughal artists were hindu , there were hindus as well as muslim , and if you can afford the train ticket to london paddington or euston , you can visit the British library , the priceless ISLAMIC texts on display has lot of colour drawing which in effect painting on paper.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ravi,

    My earlier reply was for your previous post, which was addressed to me.
    It said
    ——-
    “Ignoring a comment is not the same as losing the argument. It merely suggests that I have lost interest.”

    “Merely contradicting my subjective opinion with ones own subjective opinion does not amount to me loosing any arguments, whether that is with Binoy or with Dr Mishra or dare I say, with you.”
    ——–

    Would agree with you on Southall and Sikh Ghettos. Can you provide any evidence of racial tensions in this region between the communities, like Oldham?

    I did not rise any point about Somali’s children, I have no statistics.

    Agree, I have not read all 500 comments here. I suppose, that does not disqualify me from participating in discussion.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    THE SOMALI ISSUE

    There is a dispute, I would like to call it a discussion but I will not because it feels like a dispute.

    The disputed points are:

    Ravi says that the Somali community is keen on education despite it being a Muslim community. Its under achievement in comparion to Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese is acknowledged.

    Dr Mishra says that Somali’s are under achieving because they are a Muslim Ghetto and form thuggish gangs. Islam is the only reason sited for the failure of this community’s progress.

    There has been a study conducted which tries to record the Somali educational under achievement, analyses the possible underlying factors and points to a way forward.

    The study is:

    Refugee Communities in the UK:
    Somali Children’s Educational Progress and Life Experiences

    Jill Rutter, London Metropolitan University (2004)

    DOC]
    4adec2.doc – Somali Children’s Educational Progress and Life …
    File Format: Microsoft Word – Quick View
    The largest refugee group in UK schools are Somalis, an estimated 22 per cent of all refugee children in 2004 (Rutter, 2004). The UK’s Somali community …
    http://www.ttrb.ac.uk/…/359b73d7-13c5-4809-8717-6bb2d74adec2.doc – Similar

    It is a detailed study and some of its conclusions are:

    Lack of educational progress among Somali pupils has multiple and complex causes. These include:

    • an interrupted or non-existent prior education for new arrivals from Somalia, Yemen and
    east Africa
    • expose to violence in Somalia and in east Africa and Yemen
    • lack of exposure to written language
    • schools not developing children’s academic literacy
    • high pupil absenteeism caused by illness, family responsibilities and truancy
    • negative teacher perceptions
    • disengagement from school
    • acculturation as ‘lads’
    • racial harassment
    • inability to access enrichment and play activities in locality
    • carer traumatisation – the impact of children of carers who found it difficult to cope in the
    UK
    • poverty and the stress of living in large households
    • parental illiteracy among some new arrivals

    Here is another interesting study.

    ….http://www.outwardfacingschools.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Karine-Waldron-Somali-achievement-case-study.pdf

    Neither of these studies mentions Islam as being a factor in Somali children’s under performance. It lists a plethora of SECULAR reasons for this phenomenon.

    Dr Mishra is an ISLAMOPHOBE. QED.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Dear Gopi, Syed, Benoy, Shoeb, Mirza etc, pl analyse these figures and pl let Ravi and I know whther I am talking gibberish-

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=268

    “”Education – Indian pupils have best GCSE results

    GCSE performance

    Indian pupils are more likely to get these qualifications than other ethnic group, with 54 per cent of Indian boys doing so in 1999. This contrasts with only 22 per cent of Pakistani and Bangladeshi boys, with 45 per cent of white boys and 31% of white boys.

    School exclusions
    In 2000/01, Black pupils were more likely to be permanently excluded from schools in England than children from any other ethnic group.

    The highest permanent exclusion rates were among children belonging to the ‘Other Black’ group (40 in every 10 thousand pupils) and Black Caribbean pupils (38 in every 10 thousand). This compared with 13 in every 10 thousand White children. The lowest rate of permanent exclusions was for Indian pupils (3 in every 10 thousand).

    In particular Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were most likely to be unqualified. Nearly half (48 per cent) of Bangladeshi women and 40 per cent of Bangladeshi men had no qualifications. Among Pakistanis, 40 per cent of women and 27 per cent of men had no qualifications.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Summary for male students – Indian 54%, White 45%, Black – 31%, Pak- Bangladeshi 22%.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Ravi, this educational underachievement and propensity to crime in schoolage group leading to expuslion, is magnified in later life with economic hardship and a life of crime in a significant proportion.
    I wait for others to give a commentary on these figures.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Let me re-state, for fear of any mis-understanding. You are a GOB SHITE and you spew gibberish.

    Now let us get down to the GCSE statistics.

    Every one of them is T R U E.

    When did I write anything that disagrees with these STATS.

    All I said was the Underperformance of Pakistani, Somali pupils is recognised but can be explained by SECULAR EXPLANATIONS rather that RELIGIOUS (RESD ISLAM) EXPLANATIONS.

    Thanks for giving me one more opportunity to clearly state that you are an ISLAMOPHOBE.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    “liberal Hindu” ravi, truth hurts. It also makes people who are culturally and intellectually not well equipped to handle it to turn abusive. A ” liberal Hindu” like you is a good example of this category of people.

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    Panorama, one of BBC’s most respected programmes which usually takes 6 months + to research any topic, had highlighted the educational failures and crime in the muslim youth way back in 1994.

    They called in Imran Khan as guest presenter, and for once, the man who is normally very anti US and UK in all his utterances, accepted this well known fact.

    Since then this fact gets highlighted in every year’s education league tables in the UK, and in the list of school exclusions.

    Other similar communities are Roumanian gypsies and black afro-caribean. T

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Romanian gypsies are N O T Muslims and neither are a majority of Afro-Caribean.

    If your point is that Indians are doing better than others. No contest, never has been.

    If you say others are failing because they are MUSLIM, as you have said here on more than one occassion then you are an ISLAMOPHOBE.

    Mujhae is baat ka pukka vishvas hai ki aap paritoshpiyae nahin hain, lekin phir bhi, agar aap chahate hain ki mein aap ka chaploos ban jaon, to aap ko mujhae ghar damad banana pardae ga.

    Agar aap ko yeh savikar nahin hai to “Kintu” Parantu” sunnae ki adat dal lijiye.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    give me the name 2 brhmn intellectual.they are best slave as they have no land.have the key of circus of 33 crores devtas.fool the indian make money.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    History records all the barbarous values that were injected into our veins by the Manu Dharma Shastra and Chanakya’s Arthasastra — the two guiding Brahminical spiritual poison that set our values.

    Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, the Father of India, has exhaustively dealt with all these subjects in his voluminous writings and speeches. And hence no need for repetition.

    M.K. Gandhi, the humbug who roamed in the guise of a sanyasi, injected all the dangerous Brahminical values into our veins. It is these values that make us think that Gandhi is a Mahatma. As long as the country goes on calling him a Mahatma we will continue to be steeped in the Brahminic poisonous values.

    This has direct bearing on each and every action of our society. The governance of a society right from its President, Prime Minister, Parliament, every wing of the society — political party system, bureaucracy, judiciary, defence, education, textbooks, media, commerce and industry, art and literature, health system, business, sports etc. — all these are governed by the Hindu spiritual poison injected into our blood.

    Hindu spiritual values: That is how all of us are feeling helpless, unable to fight back the poisonous values injected into the veins of our forefathers and even to us today. And our children tomorrow.

    Why we all feel so helpless because we are governed by a set of values which are governed by the “Hindu spiritualism”.

    The most striking feature of this Hindu value system makes us think that wealth brings prestige, position, happiness and recognition. This is the most dangerous value which is killing this country.

    Because there is a desperate competition among our people even down to our youth to “somehow” become rich — beg, borrow or steal— even kill. Your parents, teachers, friends, neighbours and even the girl whom you want to marry love the rich, admire the rich. There is a country-wide craze to get rich quick.

    India’s rank falling: But how can you become rich in a country which is dirt poor? Enough statistics are before us. If you have the eyes you can see them.

    Out of about 200 countries in the world in the UN, India’s rank is about 120. And it is steadily going down. Every small country surrounding the giant India has jumped ahead of us. But we are slipping down and down — hitting the rock bottom.

    Yet we go on shamelessly claiming the Security Council seat, posing as “India Shining”. But the fact is India is a failed state. All the biggest cities — where our highest educated Hindus live and call themselves the leaders of all thought and action— are turning into slums. Yes.

    Indian money in Swiss banks: But the fact is India is not a poor country. It is a rich country deliberately kept poor. This is the fact.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    dr u become doctor to rob the patients,u become prime minister to rob bharat mata.as a human being u are sub human or anti-human.u hate indians.

    India cuts a sorry figure at World Expo

    Bangalore: Times of India, the reigning flagship of the big-mouthed Brahminical braggarts, itself has admitted we are good only at boasting without giving any proof.

    A Times staffer from Bangalore deputed to Shanghai (China), where the world’s biggest “World Expo 2010” is going on, says she was shocked to find that the Pakistan Pavilion had beaten India’s which was drawing no crowds. All that she found in the empty Indian stall was nothing but street food and handicrafts. (TOI June 23, 2010). What a shame.

    The Indian officials at the Expo, all upper castes, are not bothered about India’s shame. They have gone there to make maja at the govt. expense (RS. 41 crores).

    Media monopoly: The Shanghai World Expo-2010 is drawing peoples from all over the world and according Mrs. Hillary Clinton, the arch enemy of China who visited the Expo, she had never seen an exhibition like this in her life.

    The TOI reporter perhaps does not know that India in fact has nothing to show except its Kamasutra. But the Brahminical India puts on a big show worldwide by giving false report of “India shining”, “jumping” and all sorts of pomp and pageantry. When the Western media controlled by the Jews and the domestic media in the hands of the “Jews of India”, paints a rosy picture of India the world simply believes it. That is all the rulers want.

    The oppressed 85% of Indians have no media to tell the Plain Truth.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    dr mishra jee why Hindus behave like brainless moths

    It is a formidable task for you to go on at your age. I hope you will have a band of young men to continue this movement. The main point in my article was to show the similarity between the behaviour of Hindu-Faithfuls and the moths. For millions of years all insects developed their nervous system to be guided by star-light or moon-light which are at optical-infinity. When they came into areas of man-made artificial lights they get dis-oreinted. They think they are going in straight line, but they fly into spirals around the lights. Hindus are made to believe by the wily priests that by going round and round the stone idols they will earn the grace of god to win a place in Vaikhunta [Lord Vishnu’s], being released from the cycle of birth and death. If a rich man builds a Balaji- Temple, people of the area rush there, just like moths when a second light is switched on. Or even at the reflection of the lamp in the pail of water. This should get wide publicity among youth. This is what I wanted to say in “Narayana Murthy & Brahmins

    [Reply]

  • D Mishra, UK

    all I said was-
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “”"Summary for male students – Indian 54%, White 45%, Black – 31%, Pak- Bangladeshi 22%.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Ravi, this educational underachievement and propensity to crime in schoolage group leading to expuslion, is magnified in later life with economic hardship and a life of crime in a significant proportion.”"”"”

    and Ravi became abusive. What is so offensive here that would make an Indian hindu, which he says he is, behave so ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Simply because you think it has all to do with Islam and nothing to with other factors

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi, one can always find irrelevant corelating factors. There are lot of Muslim/Muslim killings in Pakistan these days. There are lot of Indians doing well in USA. So, one can say Pakistani killings are corelated to Indians rising.. On the surface, true.

    Your ISlamic defense is like that. By denying there is no “ialmic issue” in the Muslim students backwardness, you are denying any chance for them to improve looking at all factors. It is a fact that syuents do bad all over Islamic countries , there is a huge mismatch between numbers and capables, there is an education deficit and knowledge defiict.

    The way to deal with this is by not saying Hindus suppressed education of Dalits; but by looking at is there anything in the Book or anything in the way Mullas teach or parents guide in education. Why only Muslims do badly asa group all across the world? Yes theer are exceptions Indonesia; may be Turkey. Both these countries have done to keep Islam out (religious mullahs, ulema etc) out of states business . ISlam remains the gurilla dragging Muslims down..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    If what you say was true just of me. I would understand.

    If you look at my previous posts, you will find respectable studies sited in there, which have pointed out to all SECULAR issues such as Poverty, etc.

    So I am afraid my stance remains solid on the fact that you pin point these bacwardness to SOLELY to Islam, that makes you an ISLAMOPHOBE.

    Let me have a respectable study – not a Dily Mail article – which attributes under achievement SOLELY to ISLAM.

  • D Mishra, UK

    This is the kind of thing I was talking about, from today’s Daily Mail. Dispatches is a good investigative programme on British TV.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356361/Shame-Britains-Muslim-schools-Secret-filming-shows-pupils-beaten.html

    ….
    Welcome to one of Britain’s most influential Islamic faith schools, one of at least 2,000 such schools in Britain. They represent a growing, parallel education system. The school is the Darul Uloom Islamic High School in Birmingham, an oversubscribed independent secondary school

    …..We recorded a number of speakers giving deeply disturbing talks about Jews, Christians….

    …..We found children as young as 11 learning that Hindus have ‘no intellect’…And we came across pupils being told that the ‘disbelievers’ are ‘the worst creatures’ and that Muslims who adopt supposedly non-Muslim ways, such as shaving, dancing, listening to music and – in the case of women – removing their headscarves, would be tortured with a forked iron rod in the afterlife

    ….We soon realised that the beatings were routine. The behaviour of the boys, the way they flinched, indicated that they were long-accustomed to being hit and kicked as they studied.
    ———————————————–

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ha ha ha you obviously do not live in the UK. Otherwise you will know the Daily Mail.

    I will leave you to it.

    [Reply]

  • Murtaza Jaffer

    It’s a geat article…however, like many such great articles I have been reading recently, I have noticedthat a number of writers have attempted to include Iran along with dictatorships such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia etc……perhaps wittingly or unwittingly….although I susppect the former…..the idea being if you repeat a lie often enough and in a casual manner as part of an argument but not the main thrust of it, then it will eventually be believed as truth!. Iran is not a dictatorship, as these writeres imply….when it was one, none of these people complained about it because the Shah was pro-Western. Ever since the overthrow of the Shah, Iran has had several elections, which have been dubbed fair by all international observers who were present to see how they were conduced!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @JAFFER, IRAN IS NOT DICTATORSHIP , IRAN IS THEOCRACY

    [Reply]

  • UB Jayanthi

    Oh! good ness. Still you want to bring what happened some 10 yrs back. Why not we go back some 1200 or 500 yrs back (Aurengjeeb) and damn all muslims (essentially all fore fathers?) who participated in the killing of hindus? Who drove away pandits from Kashmir.
    Do not compare Hitler to Modi. Do not forget the reaction to the Godhra is what made it. I am not anti muslim because all hindus suffered. Hindus have tolerance.
    COMEOUT OF YOUR SHELL OF NONSENSE> BANGLADESHIS WANT TO COME TO GUJARAT. You think you are a blogger?

    [Reply]

  • http://profiles.google.com/pvariel P V Ariel

    Very Interesting read indeed. But very sad to note that what these poor astrologers can do with these politicians, No doubt each one already had one or more soothsayers in their reach and they are ready to predict the unpredictable things which often fails miserably, then what is the use of these astrologers or the so called soothsayers! What a sad state we the people of India are in.

    [Reply]

  • go back

    go back…

    Modi: Goodwill hunting, but should he get it? : They Call Me Muslim…