Islamist terror: Where are we now?



In medicine, the goal is either to cure a disease completely or prevent it altogether. A third option is to keep incurable ailments, such as chronic arthritis, within manageable limits with a ‘maintenance dose’.

It’s been nine years on since 9/11. The current state of the so-called Islamist terror is much like arthritis in a patient on maintenance dose for nine years: the problem is largely controlled, but nowhere close to being wiped out.

Al-Qaeda and its acolytes retain a stubborn critical mass. So, in coming years, we should expect the global terror machinery with a less-than-sparkling prowess, but active nonetheless.

The situation is not so bad, after all, or as bad as it sounds. There has not been a repeat of 9/11. But terrorists will strive to plot such spectacular attacks as Mumbai’s 26/11.

Think about the swine flu epidemic. When it set off in Mexico, world over, people were rattled. On Delhi’s Metro trains, panicky commuters were seen masking themselves to stave off an infection. The disease has since been largely subdued, but still, somebody, somewhere can get infected. Global terror is now no more threatening and deadly than the swine flu.

Security agencies foiled an al-Qaeda plot of Yemeni origin to blow up cargo airplanes with bombs hidden in printer-cartridge parcels. The devices were pin-pointedly located in cargo sheds in Dubai and the UK. Click here.

The parcel bomb tip-off apparently came from an al-Qaeda fighter de-radicalised by the Saudis, but one who had re-joined terror ranks, pointing to the possibility of him being a double-agent or a mole.

This means counter-terrorism is working and tip-offs are getting more precise.

There are several upsides in this war against terror. One, Islamist terrorism does not enjoy the support of a single regime in countries they have roots in. The Saudis, Bahrain, Jordan, Emirates, Yemen, et cetera, are not just opposed to the “al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula” group but are also bent on crushing it. South East Asian nations, such as Indonesia, too are on the right side of the war on terror.

However, the downside is that global terror has proved to be resilient. Moreover, collateral damages involving civilians from strikes launched by NATO or the US only evoke public anger. An elusive end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict means the “cause” remains alive. A drone attack in Yemen recently killing civilians, for instance, fuelled a tribal uprising.

It’s simply impossible to stub out terror by killing each one of the bad guys. It will take resolution of regional conflicts too. A particular danger is that the US-led war on terror represents as some sort of an attempt to take over Muslim territories to many Islamist insurgencies and even to non-radical societies.

How to tackle terror without appearing to threaten Islam itself? This is what those leading this war should think about.

What began as a jihad to eject the Americans from the Saudi and Palestinian lands is now increasingly a fight to remove them also from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Click here for the original 1996 fatwa of bin Laden, which is officially accepted by the US as one of his motives.

(For those interested in studying the forces that spurred Islamist terror, this fatwa is an interesting read. Laden mentions instances of horrific suffering of Muslims, including killing of tens of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I do not know if Laden knows this or not: it was America that stepped in to save ethnic Bosnian Muslims and stop the massacre.)

To say — as former British Prime Minister Tony Blair has, that some Muslims are fundamentally opposed to the West and therefore will always try to destroy it is simply a sweeping statement. Click here.

Blair must remember that mentioning “America” and “Canada” can evoke very different reactions among Muslims, as a Gallup poll had found. Muslims in some countries may still snap at the mention of US, but would simply appear unaffected and opinion-less at the mention of Canada. Both equally fit the frame of being “North American, Western countries”.

Blair is largely talking rubbish when he says Saddam Hussein may not have had “weapons of mass destruction” but had the intent to acquire them. How do you prove intent? North Korea has a belligerent nuclear weapons mission. Now, should it be invaded?

Blair now faces trial in his own country for his decision to invade Iraq. And for Bush, who has said that the world was anyways “better off without Saddam”, one could say that might be true of Bush himself, for the sake of argument.

Indeed, America under Bush and Obama are two very different Americas.

In Iraq, deadly bombs continue to go off in what is essentially a conflict fitting snugly in the definition of a civil war between Shias and Sunnis. In Afghanistan, the fight continues to be and will be about ousting Americans from Afghan soil.

In Pakistan, terror is directed against a regime seen to be siding with the Americans.  However, frequently, it is difficult to guess who’s fighting who there. In recent months, several deadly attacks in mosques and shrines betray signs of Muslim sectarian clashes.

So, now we are left with two broad strands of terror: one that is directed against the US and the second one that comprises Islamist insurrections directed against their native regimes. The inter-operability and networking among them are threats to look out for.

Americans, who pulled out of Iraq in August, say they foresee the terror machinery reduced to an “irreducible minimum”. This means that terror attacks will continue at a sub-optimal level.

I believe the war on terror, led by America, is going to change course once President Obama manages to pull out of Afghanistan or “draw down” from there, as the Americans call it. It will be less about direct intervention, as in Iraq, and more about counter-terrorism cooperation.

The US will and should work closely with regimes in trouble-spots, such as in Yemen, where the Americans pumped in $300m this year.

On the other hand, Islam itself is evolving and Islamic regimes in Muslim countries are creating capacities for educational, economic and social opening.

For Islam-baiters, an Islam not at odds with modernity may sound unbelievable. However, Samuel Huntington — whose Clash of Civilizations was about an Islam fundamentally pitted against the West – had also once said that if there was one religion he wasn’t sure would be able to handle modernity, it was Roman Catholicism. Christianity has traveled far from where Huntington had left it. So will Islam.

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  • Ravi

    Zia

    As the English General says this is a long term project.

    1. Contain Al Qaida where they are now, defeating them is not possible.

    2. Have a program od democracy in Afghanistan.

    3. Institute universal and secular education in Afghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    And these three will cure us of the extremism eating at us/? And no more Islamic terriorists? That is it….Or is it just a solution for Afghanistan?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    I hope at first in Afghanistan and then every where else.

    Lets not forget less than 10 years ago there was no Islamic violence as we know it now.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Islamism as an idea has as much right to exist as any other idea.

    However, what is not acceptable is, Islamism manifesting itself in violent forms. All such manifestations must be resisted as they currently are being by the NATO forces.

    Just as any idea can exist; it can also be defeated through democracy and education.

    We all have the right to peacefully oppose any idea that we do not agree with.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    “so now we are left with two broad strands of terror ..one that is aginst US and the second islamic insurrections aimed at their native countries”….

    hoho..only those two? What classification does Zia give to 11/26 Mumbai? A ploy hatched and trained by the army/intelligence unit of Pakistan?

    Zia talks about drone attacks and how it turns people against US…Hasnt Pakistani Muslims killed more of their own (?) Muslims than they ahve killed any “invaders”?

    Zia is silent on the 100 pound guerilla in the room – the role of Islam itself. “Christianity grew to handle modernity; and Islam also will” …How, who, when, where, in what way?????

    Christianity went through reformation severing personal , church, and nation interconnectivity. All have benefited from that, other countries and people have benefited from that.

    OBL s fatwa about Muslim lands is the fundamental issue – who and how bridge an unbrdgable bridge that Muslims have built starting 650 – the manichean divide of believers and non-believers, us vs them, fidels and kauffers, dar-ul-harb and dar-ul-islam..

    While the Intelligence agencie can be proud of catching the cargo plane bombing pot, and many are caught, I believe many more are uncatchable and bound to happen sooner than later. For along time, the conventional wisdom in US was unlike the Muslim immigrants who attacked in UK, US Muslim immigrants are “well integrated” (that is an oxymoron for u) , no ghjettos, mostly professionals, living American dream…..All that are shattered now, the last nail being the Pakistani Air Marshal son’s bombing plot in Manhattan, and the arrest of the four youngsters from Virginia (one a dental student, one an engineering student…) in Peshwar area for training with Alqueda. Now FBI says home-grown islamic terror is a larger probability than a 9/11 type…

    Muslims and terrorism were on the “ballot” figuratively in this month’s election. And the people and party that proclaimed there is Sharia law in Dearbormn (a false statement), Islam is unwelcome in US etc won big time.. While theer is a small element of bogotry, a large contributing factor was fear itself.

    People all over are afraid of these guys, worried about when will a bomb explode; is it when the palne takes off, or while landing, or in the air…Juan Williams, not a conservative or anti-Muslim, a black man who knew the sufferings of black people , mentioned on the air, in an interview ” I get afraid if there is a bearded man in a Muslim drab sitting in the plane… when Shazad said blood will flow in the streets of US, we better take it seriosuly” , NPR fired him; but the populace was on his side.

    When Zia says Muslim terrorism is waning, he is expressinga hope. And frankly, he, or any other Muslim , (and others) want to hear about another incident when 100s get killed. Hope is not a strategy. And the strategy is not US moving away from Afghanistan. If anybody thinks “islam will shine” after US moves out of Afghanistan, I have a bridge to sell to them.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    The Mumbai terror was more to do with India/Pakistan relations than the Islamic fundamentalism. I agree that radicalised youth were used to carry out the attack, but LeT/ISI the sponsoring organisations are more focused on anti India activities rather than promoting the Islamists cause.

    When you say Islamist threat is not waning then you are fear mongering beacuse it suits your political perspective, which is irrational and anti Islam.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, if telling the truth makes me irrational or anti-Islam, so be it.

    Is islamic extremism on the wane just because Zia stated The spctre of three cargo bombs exploding over eastern sea board was just last week. The scene of the Major Hasan shooting his fellow officers happened few months ago. The attorney general of US (not a white man) has gone on the record that the biggest internal threat US faces is from home grown Islamic militants, many of them motivated by Al-Awlaki, the same one who motivated the bangla Deshi girl in london who stabbed and almost killed the MP there. Al Awlaki is on US hit list.

    Just few days ago four Pakistani Muslims were arrested in France for plotting a 11/26 attack on multiple European cities.

    When you say it is on wane, is it because spectacular atrocities have not happened? How can you say Mumbai 11/26 was India/Pakistan issue? The tape recordings of their conversations clearly show a religious killing spree )hauffers etc used in the conversation), not a political territory sh–

    You can call em whatever you want.. I am afraid of Islamic terrorism . Every time I travel outside US I am afraid that some extremist Muslims have craftted a plan to make the plane go down. You can call it whatever you want. And I am not in a minority. You are drinking ksome koll-aid if you think people believe Issamic terrorism is on the wane. Sitting here in US, and hearing about almost daily arrests, and contemplating on “what if” on the foiled attempts etc do not make me feel safe. It does not make many do not feel safe. And one way people have demonstarted in US is by voting crazy tea parties in power.

    Instead of criticizing people like me, you should focus on reeducation of these jehadists. I will change my opinion if I can have one year of “muslim terrorism free” world.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Whose truth are you telling? Do you think that you know what the real truth is. If you do then you are a better man than I am.

    Waning does not mean it has ended, it means that less attempts are being made due to the success of western intelligence as well as the partial decapitation of AQ in Af/PAK border..

    I did say that radical Islamist youths were used in the Mumbai attack, and they were duped into believing that they were doing it as a part of the Islamic Jihad. But the sad reality is that it was a Pakistan ISI sponsored attack on India.

    I think the best way to understand is to disassemble the means from motivation. Motive was anti India, means employed were Islamist Jihadi terrorists

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    OK, good explanation

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    I would like to smoke what Zia is smoking…..Islamic terrorism on the wane?????????????
    Looks like they will not even bar Mecca. Few days ago a report from SAadi Arabia stated the govt was worried about bombing in Mecca (it may be their trick to get people on their side, or could be a real threat)

    These jehadi Muslims do not want to live, they only want to kill.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Raju

    Unwarranted fear mongering.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Binoy

    Islam isnot just a 100 pound gorilla in the room. It is 100 pound gorilla with a AK 47!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Out of 1.5 billion Muslims how man have AK47

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Neither an Amrican action or inaction is going to put the genie back in the bottle. American performance is just a fodder for secularists and HR advocates to use on.

    It is a rage within the Islamic world spilling over unintended targets. Why is the centuries old, respected, moderate Lucknow voice not heard in India (or suppressed) by “powerful” Indian/Saudi Arabian Muslims?

    Somebody had referenced in the last blog about a survey done in Muslim areas. It will be interesting if a survey is done on Indian Msulims and their perceptions on Saudi Arabia,

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Zia you started with a medical metaphor.no regular blogger can give give you a better metaphor than me for obvious reason. Recently I had a patient on whom I operated for morbid obesity. they are only able to drink liquid blender food,because the stomach is stapled off leaving a tiny channel,.now this lady was not losing weight at all . it transpired she was drinking 5 litres of sweetened drinks and liqudising MARS chockolate bars.
    Same with islamic terrorism , it will not go away , because you cannot control diabetes with insulin ONLY(read security measure, bribe in case of pakistan , drone attack etc),so long you go gorging on sweets . THERE NEEDS TO BE A COUNTER ARGUMENT EXPOSING ISLAM FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH , keep the nice bits (cultural communal aspect) JUNK the quoran and hadith BECOME SECULAR.
    This is what VOLTAIRE thought long before salman rushdie in his play “le fanatisme ou mahomet le Prophe^te..What made this story especially controversial was Voltaire’s depiction of Mahomet,the founder of Islam , as an imposter and a fanatic ; not merely was he the prophet of a new religion , which he knew to be wholly false , but his purpose was to enslave the arabs and conquer the world .(For that imposter Ashish , this is not lifted from book jacket but is from the biography of Voltaire by Ian davidson ,page 176)
    The problem with islam is like somebody wants to play football bare foot ,expects other team to play barefoot and EXPECTS ALL OTHER TEAMS TO PLAY ACCORDING TO RULES LAID BY THEM .It aint going to happen ,nor is it desirable for MANKIND.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Zia’s assertion “rain, rain, go away, little Ravi wants to play”… Which planet is he in? Who will bell the cat?? One would think it will be people liek Zia who has a perch.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    NATO are already doing it, and the CAT will go away when it sees their is no meat there.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    did say that radical Islamist youths were used in the Mumbai attack, and they were duped into believing that they were doing it as a part of the Islamic Jihad. But the sad reality is that it was a Pakistan ISI sponsored attack on India

    ravi i dont agree with u .tell me terrorists kill the people who killed terrorists and tried to hide their identities.2-3people cannot fight with nsg and rape and kill 179 innocents ladies and childrens.

    karkare was killed in first 15 minutes of attack.he was asking for help for 45 minutes no reinforement reached.

    a hindu maharashtrian girl has submitted affidevit in mumbai court confirming his sighting many days before attack.

    at cst burqa clad women were specially targetted which is not expected from jihadis.

    why kasab is not allowed to meet freely with his lawyers in private.

    david headly is fbi agent ,not isi.few cases when it was revealed that person is brhmn ,he is released.

    how come 2-3 terrorist remained at cst for hrs when police control rooms was 15 minute walkj.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    So are you saying that the Mumbai attack was not conducted by Pakistani citizens at all and instead was an Indian conspiracy?

    If that is what you are suggesting then I am afraid I do not agree with you.

    There are many such conspiracy theories around and that is what they are. Conspiracy theories.

    It is widely accepted that LeT on behest of ISI (rogue or not rogue agents) carried out the cowardly attack.

    Muslims in Mumbai would not let the bodies of terrorists be buried in their graveyards because they considered the atrocities to against the tenets of Islam.

    As far as Karkare is concerned then my mind is slightly open because I am prepared to consider that some one may have seen an opportunity to take out a thorn and they did.

    [Reply]

    jangal santhal Reply:

    pakistani gumen were hired.european media never called them terrorist.why there is no enquiry on leopold hotel firing,which, witness says was carried out by people with white skin and blonde hair.

    jewish family died of nsg bullets not by terorists.medical reports confirm this.

    u dont know masonics,they are enemy of all revealed religions.that is why christian, muslims and jews were attacked and killed.killing the body parts of victim is RSS expertize.we see this
    in every roits.jehadi never do this.

    AIM OF GAME WAS TO PRESSURIZE PAKISTAN TO ATTACK PHATA AND OTHER TERRORIST DENS WHICH WERE SUPPORTING AFGHAN TALIBAN.
    a weak goverment which is under attack from all sides cannot risk war with india.
    whenever antulay was asking for enquiry,entire right wing will start shouting and dancing in parliament.
    TRUTH SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID OF INVESTIGATION.WHY THEY WERE THREATENING
    LAWYERS WITH DIRE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY DEFEND KASAB.

    THIS WAS ALSO WAR BETWEN SACRED BRHMN(ABHINAV BHARAT)AND SOCIALIST BRAHMINS.karkare was on wrong side of history.was entenced to death as per manu law like sambha jee.
    I RECOMMEND YOU TO READ BOOK WRITTEN BY SM MUSHRIF.

    thsi was game.it was mixed game in which escape was provided to hindu fascists.gunmen
    were brought with same promise but were ditched.they were fighting for their life.but after seeing their ferocity brhmncl army pissed in their pants.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    pakistani gumen were hired.european media never called them terrorist.why there is no enquiry on leopold hotel firing,which, witness says was carried out by people with white skin and blonde hair.

    jewish family died of nsg bullets not by terorists.medical reports confirm this.

    u dont know masonics,they are enemy of all revealed religions.that is why christian, muslims and jews were attacked and killed.killing the body parts of victim is RSS expertize.we see this
    in every roits.jehadi never do this.

    AIM OF GAME WAS TO PRESSURIZE PAKISTAN TO ATTACK PHATA AND OTHER TERRORIST DENS WHICH WERE SUPPORTING AFGHAN TALIBAN.
    a weak goverment which is under attack from all sides cannot risk war with india.
    whenever antulay was asking for enquiry,entire right wing will start shouting and dancing in parliament.
    TRUTH SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID OF INVESTIGATION.WHY THEY WERE THREATENING
    LAWYERS WITH DIRE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY DEFEND KASAB.

    THIS WAS ALSO WAR BETWEN SACRED BRHMN(ABHINAV BHARAT)AND SOCIALIST BRAHMINS.karkare was on wrong side of history.was entenced to death as per manu law like sambha jee.
    I RECOMMEND YOU TO READ BOOK WRITTEN BY SM MUSHRIF.

    thsi was game.it was mixed game in which escape was provided to hindu fascists.gunmen
    were brought with same promise but were ditched.they were fighting for their life.but after seeing their ferocity brhmncl army pissed in their pants.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    One can take principle elements of any story and concoct a completely different story and in doing so make the hero of the original story into a villain of the new story.

    However, it does not follow that the new story becomes the truth. A Classical example of this is the assassination of John F Kennedy.

    I am not prepared to believe that GOI will sacrifice innocent citizens of India just so that pressure can be put on the Pakistan Government.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ravi
    non state actors were involved.state was not involved attack had many purpose.pak goverment too were not involve.american want honourable exit from the are 8 yrs have passed.bill is 4billion dollars per week excluding loss of human life.mushhsarf was opposing all out attack on their population.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ravi,
    pease tell me why mascare at leopold restraunt is not reported much nad investigated at all.
    why there was no enquiry commission was formed to investigate truth.

    no enquiry comission was established on sept 11 also.

    BEKHUDI BESABAB NAHIN GHALIB,

    KUTCH TO HAI JISKI PURDAH ZARI HAI.

  • http://- Rajeev

    The real purpose behind this blog is to appease American Embassy so that they don’t deny visa to Islamist Zia. Too late..Zia holds west responsible for Islamic terrorism in most of his blogs and now does a turnaround but couldn’t hide his disdain for west even in this blog.

    Ravi is behaving as apologist for Islamists. Do we need more proof that this RAVI is actually a fake?
    Our gullibility is the precise reason pakistan has taken India for a ride on every occasion. This Ravi (the talibani) is doing exactly the same thing with gullible indian poster..Have fun interacting with hardcore talibani sympathisers RAVI and Mohammad Autar,

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Rajeev

    It is jehadis who stopped the free flow of people. Travel used to be so easy before 9/11!

    As EricHolder, the attorney general said, the number one threat here (in USA) is from home grown Muslim terrorists.. Almost every day you read about a Pakistani Muslim boy (son of a doctor, or a cab driver or wahtever) arrested on planning an attack.

    The tragedy or irony in all these are that these Muslim terrorists and their Muslim sympathisers are using all the freedoms west offers to them to close the freedoms of the west. As Shan mentioned in his blog, these Muslims come to western countries, get welfare payments, and start attacking the system. They do not have guts to take over the corrupt Egyptian or Saudi overnments; neither the Islamic countries want the IPalestinian issue solved. The Islamic countries are now more focused to deny a bomb to Iran…no no for a Shia bomb. It is pitiful to see all those countries lined up with US and d eclatre Iranian bomb is a more pressing issue.

    US should ensure that their borders are protected, they may want to consider stopping visas to all Muslim countries except Turkey and Malaysia. They should bomb Pakistan , KSA to the 650s level, to the sands of Arabia. Most of the terrorists emnate from there. It was reported that Secretary Powell’s deputy threatened Mushruff that either he join the war on terror (Pakistan was the supporter (of the three countries) of Talibans in Afghanistan), or face the wrath of US and get bombed to the
    stone age. Hindsight says that US should have taken them to the stone age so they could not go on harboring terrorissts and terror tarining centers.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Do you think the following is possible.

    US attacks Pakistan. Pakistan fears for its very survival and Nukes India, as it has nothing to loose any way.

    However, why should that bother you, you live in the US.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, the issue why US does not attack Pakistan, and pays them money whenever the beggars extend their hands, is because of the nukes. Any US attack has to be done with denuking first. I hope US is smart there (who knows!)

    I will not have an issue with US and India doing a joint attack if total success is guaranteed. I am confident majority of indian Muslims will be supportive of destroying the terrorist anti-Indian apparatus there and ensuring a pure grounds up democratic system, with military under civilian control, and other modern 21st century systems. And hopefully even taking pride in their heritage and past and not running away saying thy are all Arab descendents!

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Also, I am not for war and and amm a pacifist. But I do believe there are times when a war is justified, and Pakistan is at such a dangerous sate for the whole world that it should be decapacitated. They are playing multiple games, stroking one terrorist group here, and another there, and yet a sleeper cell in US etc etc.. they themselves are losing counts and control. The daily attack within there is only a symptom of loss of this control and counts; in fact the terrorists may already have nukes or have access to the core facilities as we write these!

    Headly Reply:

    First USSR, now USA and next is India.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Do you think that the Pakistan establishment does not know that? Don’t you think they do war simulations all the time like every other country in the world does.

    If the problem had an easy solutions then don’t you think that all these clever people would have found one?

    There is no easy solution?

    Meanwhile, continuously listing the atrocities committed and how violent Islam is or is not and how noble Hinduism is or is not, is nothing more and nothing less than time pass humbug.

    No purpose will be served OTHERING Muslims, particularly in India. The day the Hindu Right will subjugate them sufficiently that they will become a docile and a compliant minority is nothing short of a pipe dream.

    Dull people talk about other people, average people talk about events, and intelligent people explore ideas.

    The choice is entirely yours.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, nobody talked about Hinduism or Christianity. We talked about PAkistan. And I do believe PAkistan does not have an “establishment”. witnessing the events unfolding there. And all the world knows elements of APksitan government’s culpability in unleashing terror.

    You may not believe that. you may agree Pakistan is a 21st century democratic government with civilain controls and democratic elections.

    You have that right.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I absolutely believe that Pakistan is a fragmented state from top to bottom and is quite capable of being a rogue state.

    However, us doing things that will push it over the edge is only likely to back fire on us. I think that tactics of GOI are well calibrated and nuanced.

    ram autar Reply:

    us will never attack pakistan.they know they will loose war.they already bited dust in iraq and shit in afghanistan.attack on pakistan will cut their supply route.simply they cannot win as this will unite people of pakitan.

    systemetic destruction of their infrastructure and institutions by world powers and their local ally is roots of terrorism.unemployed youth have to do something.

    ram autar Reply:

    Well, the issue why US does not attack Pakistan, and pays them money whenever the beggars extend their hands,

    attack on pakistan means total financial destruction of america.AND VERY INSULTING DEFEAT IN AFGHANISTAN.SUPPLY TO NATO PASSES THROUGH PAK TERROTERY..

    HINDU HATRED FOR MUSLIM CAN NEVER UNITE INDIA.ALL THE TIME LIKE WEAK WOMEN ,U SAY THAT AMERICA SHOULD DO THIS ,AMERICA SHOULD THAT.ISRAEL SHOULD COME.why u people are g..s.u have no courage why not u do.it ur self.

    ram autar Reply:

    As EricHolder, the attorney general said, the number one threat here (in USA) is from home grown Muslim terrorists..

    MR ERIC /MR HEGDE,

    THE MAN WHO ATTACKED MILLITARY ESTABLISHMENT IN AMERICA IN 90S AND KILLED 160 DEFENCE PERSONAL WAS NOT MUSLIM.terrorist grows because of descrimination and exploitation not because of religion.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    I totally agree with you. The muslims like ravi and autar are misusing western freedom to attack west. They are shameless parasites..You can not expect any better of them.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Binoy Hegde, Watched Oliver Stone’s “south of the Border”. Everybody knows americas policy in south america is wretched to put it politely. But that didn’t excite the southamericans to send suicide bombers to newyork. They did send millions of illegal aliens through the mexican border.
    This terrorism is now essentially in four theatres. Pakistan , the epicentre , do you know what Al Quaida means . It means THE BASE. Now unless there is a hugo chavez in pakistani military who takes over , takes on the terrorist and feudals , BECOMES FREE from licking chinese and american arse , NOTHING WILL HAPPEN . This will go on , unless somehow ISRAEL IS INVOLVED, then the END GAME will begin. Though I have a feeling ONE MORE NEWYORK shezad kind of thing , and AMERICA IS GOING IN , LAND INVASION TO NORTH WAZIRISTAN.
    next is Iraq, here all that is happening is BECAUSE SUNNIS HAVE BEEN MARGINALISED. There is a barber in our area , he hails from Kurdistan. Because they are autonomous and free from arab (sunni) control in Baghdad , he told me massive amount of devolopement is taking place. Those who talk about the feeling for the fellow muslims, the kurds are a slap on their face. The kurds are sunnis , but that didn’t stop saddam from GASSING them with phosgene. This is because Kurds are not arabs , incredibly they may have originally come from INDIA. Their numericals are Ek , Do , Tin, Char etc. Well we know how bangladeshi women were raped by pakistani soldiers in 1971.
    Next is YEMEN . This is a very very very poor country. Most of the earning is spent on chewing a plant called HUT , it has some addictive chemicals. Here terrorist thrive , like piracy is for the somalis. It is a very backward illiterate country (like pakistan) so inferiority complex , and when you are down you was take refuge in past , how islam fought and won all those wars etc.
    Regarding UK , the govt has apparatus to nip them in the bud. The listening post GCHQ in cheltenham can monitor each and every radio signal, and had nabbed quite a few by intercepting mobile phone conversations. Also because they are concentrated in pockets, keeping an eye wont be dificult , yhough a massive drain on tax payers money. I think if they can exterminate no1 and no2 of al quaida and one eyed mullah omar , islamic terrorism will become a damp squib.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan all problem f\of that area is because of kurdish oil.something which zoinist press never reveal.as compare to americans and west ,kurds always preffered arabs and saddam.becaus of oil they made kurdistan safe heaven.invested billions of dollars in a hope that by selling their oilat cheap price they will return the loan and will make good money,but due to resistence they failed in their plan.their oil cannoy flow through iraqi terrotery and turkey refused the acces,the only way left is iran,that is why so much pressure on iran.oil can be transported from kurdistan to port of haifa easily and cheap through train.this huge loan was also,one of the main reason
    for the financial crises couple of years ago.

    american have gone bankrupt are spending 4 billion per week to sustain wars.israel will never go for land invasion.they know they cannot win.in last war with hizbollah they suffered heavy casuality,could not achieve their stragetic aim of controlling river,ehich was 5 kilometer from their border.
    .after 34days they were convassing for ceasefire.hizbollah cadres are ready to die for their cause.
    america`is using pakistan as cheap ally.totall aid to pakistan is equivalent to their 3 week expenses in iraq and afghanistan.that too they will get in 5 years.

    alqaeda is thought cannot be finished.they have supporter everywhere it is resistence against imperialism.their no3 man is an ex-jew azzam al americee.tgey have good support among western christians.among muslims alqaeda is not so much popular.

    kurd have not come from india.but turkish soldiers have taken ek do teen to india.KURDISTAN WAS INDEPENDENT BIG COUNTRY.in 19th century .when oil was discovered.britishers divided this area some was given to turkey some to iraq some to syria.storey of their pain starts from there.IT IS CHURCHILL WHO USED GAS AGAINST THEM TO PACIFY THEIR REBELLION.
    THIS TIME ALSO CHEMICAL WHICH WAS USED AGAINST ,WAS SOLD TO IRAN AND ISRAEL.
    IRAQ NEVER HAD THIS CHEMICAL.area is on border of iraq and iran.

    zoinists plant the bomb,in india also at the end hindu zoinists are caught..iraq is origin of jews.
    both were living like brothers from centuries.when israel needed jews they started the game of bomb planting,used to plant bomb in muslim and jewish area.with help of media.created atmosphere of fear and hatred.succeeded in transporting jews to israel.where they are being used as cheap labour for menial jobs.many of them have gone to america.others curse their decision.
    THEiIR SATANIC COUSIN IN INDIA COPIED THIS IN 1947.GAVE UNIMAGINABLE PAIN TO PEOPLE OF INDIA.

    everybody is fighting for his interest.only 2 satanic cousins ,with their control over media ,depicts THESE CLASHES as religious war.in iraq shia are fighting with shias,I WAS IN BEIRUT IN MY YOUTH.ALL RACES WERE LIVING LIKE BROTHERS.nobody could identify who is christian or who is muslim
    even jew.then zoinists created problems.country was divided and civil war started.micheal aoun their most popular phalange christian leader is main ally of hizbollah.whose name israelis starts shivering.general jew dont want to fight.want peace.only ashknazis or jews migrated from america want tension and war,AS THEY HAVE FACTORIES PRODUCING DEFENSE ITEMS,WHICH THEY SELL AT VERY HIGH PRICE.EVERY WAR EVERY CALAMITY IS OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM.media is used to sell the war.like hindu zoinists of india.mullah omar is product of occupation the moment america leave ,he will have end of sheikh mujibur rehman.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    But that didn’t excite the southamericans to send suicide bombers to newyork.

    if they do what
    they are doing in iraq afghanistan and now in pakistan.awnser will be more harsh.anyhow american oil companies has already pauperized these countries.anti-american feeling is as high in middle east.hugo chavez,fidel castro,dr arnesto che guera represented these feelings from time time.

    [Reply]

  • Mohammad Saad

    Just read few comments in this column.. I always argue why people call Islamic terrorist. Islam never cultivate terrorists. Islam is a religion which loves peace.But as some people (Islamic name holdrers) are trained to create problems for the benefits of some groups or polical parties or enemies of the other, can we label them in that name.The attack of Pakistanis on India, and the recent attcks in Pakistan within the country , am wondering are these people Muslims? Any unfair attack on another is not justifiabale, whther Muslims or hindus or christians or jews etc….
    What we can do to prevent? Teach our siblings th ereal value of humanity, the importanc eof religion(no religion direct the beievers to kill the innocent) and can any Muslim who read this suggestion show me where has Islam direct t kill the innocent ? Those doing such inhuman acts, should study what Islam and how you can be a Muslim. the almighty Allah will never forgive you for your misdeeds…Do as you are instructed, Believe in Allah pray 5 times, give alms, perform haj if you are physically fit and i fyou can bear the expense.. Am sure you will be peaceful…learn to love neighbours….If you are a true Muslim,you will not eat full while your neighbour (no matter which religion) is suffering, such peoiple are not to be called Muslims….did u ever learn that? – So if anyone wishes to hate others or attack others..pls learn own religion ..what i sreligion, what for religion….May all believrs upkeep a menatlity of peace abstaining from hatred. The world can be improved.

    [Reply]

    sam Reply:

    >Islam never cultivate terrorists

    What is islamic jehad ? is’nt it same as cultivating terrorists ?

    islam cultivates slavery, blasphemy, religious apartheid, dhimmitude.. perpetual oppression of kaafirs, muslim woman…

    islam has to be wiped out of the earth for the progress of humanity..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sam,

    foundation base of european civilization is islamic civilization.read the speech of prince charles.he told the church to accept the truth.
    till church was ruling europe there was nothing except voilence even gallileo was hanged for using balloon.25 millions ladies were burnt alive being witch.
    when london and paris were having mud houses ,muslim spain was most prosperous progressive secular state.
    islam was and is first religion which provides woman with right to divorce ,property keep fathers name.
    in australia,mumbai and london people are beaten on basis of colour and nationality.not in dubai
    or kualampur or jakarta.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >foundation base of european civilization is islamic civilization

    Stop listening to your locall Mullah.
    Read about Greek and Roman civilisations.

    Some of the bridges built by Romans are still used.
    Some of the water aqueducts built by Romans are still used.

    Stop being brainwashed by your Wahhabi illiterates.

    ram autar Reply:

    sam read about islamic spain also.arab physics astronomy mathmetics became base of that civilization.when houses of paris and london were made of mud.from ahmadabad to cordoba muslims countries have best cities roads and system of goverment.most important tolerance from delhi to spain system was secular.everybody used to get benefitted.when london was dirty municipality lord macaulay says following about about
    muslim india,

    LORD MACAULAY’S ADDRESS TO BRITISH PARLIAMENT 2nd FEBRUARY 1835

    “I have travelled across length and Breadth of India and I have not seen aperson who is a beggar who is a thief. such a wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient educational system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and english is good and greater than their own way,they will lose their selfesteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them , a truly domintaed nation.

    roman civilization was not base of european civilization.istambul,the first vatican of christian is under muslim control fro 700 years

    thsi advise has been given to church by prince charles.before muslim occupation they run by intolerant church.who will kill any deviant without mercy.

    in seventh cntury spain had big universities and place of learning baghdad university is 1000 yeras old alazhar of cairo is 500 years older than oxford.

    Ravi Reply:

    Sam

    It is quite amazing that you are very quick to list what you consider are the evils of Islam.

    However, you never list the evils of Hinduism.

    Is this because evils of Hinduism are all around you and have been there for centuries that you have become blind to them.

    Hinduism has had so many reform movements that complete seperate religons have come about as a result of these reform movements, Buddhism and Sikhism, just to name two.

    Would you not consider that both past and present evils, such as the heredtitary caste system, the denegrating of an entire section of population as Dalits, Sati, Devdasi, and other unsavory prctices should also be mentioned.

    I will spare you my views on Hindu Terrorism. All you have to do is read the book – The Clash Within.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ravi,
    Hinduism has had so many reform movements that complete seperate religons have come about as a result of these reform movements, Buddhism and Sikhism, just to name two.
    Some rivers split into many parts and yet manage to irrigate the same basin (my attempt at amateur philosophy). Hinduism has had many schisms- in fact it is a very loose “confederation”. Vaishnavas, Shaivaiites, even agnostics have found space in this religion. Different regions have different presiding deities- a bewildering variety.

    However, is it not ironic that if the Sikhs declared “independence” from Hindus, they faught mostly Muslims politically and militarily?
    Lastly, do you think Hinduism is unique in the faultlines within?
    Christianity has had many more splits. According to a blog Iread on a Indian Muslim blog, there are some 72 sects and subsects among the Muslims.
    Some of the reform movements have aimed at reform (like Chaitanya-deva, Shankaracharya) within. Some have broken off and gone their independent ways.
    Hardly unique, though. Happens in all religions.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    You have asked me some interesting questions and I will give you my replies.

    The very reason why a reformist schism comes about in any religion, is because the original format of that religion was found to be either wrong or out of date.

    For example, the prohibition of Divorce within the Catholic Church lead Henry the VIII to create a schism called the Church of England. Similarly the Huguenots in France accepted and promoted the Protestant church as reaction to excesses of Catholicism.

    In Hinduism, Sati, the Hereditary Caste System, child marriage, mindless rituals are some of the reasons why Hindu reform movements were started. Practice of violenec both historical and current is not just restricted to Islam, it is also practiced by the Hindu Right.

    If you agree with the essential point made above then the least one has to accept, that the original tenets of any religion must be changed if the religion has to survive with changing times.

    Sadly, within Islam there are movements which vehemently and often violently resist this form of reformation and modernisation. This is a very large element of Islamic violence and can only be eliminated if Muslims themselves accept the inevitability of reform and modernise.

    As far as the Sikh issue you mention then my view is that Sikh is one of the most modern religion, it being only 300+ years old.

    Sikhs believe that GOD is one and there are many paths and ways to attain HIM. That renders conversion a nonsense activity. Because any one who follows a True Path is by definition already a Sikh and does not require any change. I quote from the Sikh Ardas.

    Jagat jalanda rakh le, aapni kripa dhar.
    Jit dware ubhray, tete leh ubhar.

    Loosely translated it means Oh God, this Earth is a burning mass and people are trying to come to you. No matter which door they emerge from, please behold them.

    Once you accept that, then it becomes imperative to a SIKH to stop Mulsims (or who so ever else) converting people from one religion to another. In practical terms this has only manifested in stopping Mughal Kings from force ably converting Hindus to Islam.

    Yes reformation movements are not unique to Hinduism and almost all religions have had them. That can only be a good thing.

    Lets not forget the original point, no Religion is perfect. For Hindus to continuously itemise perceived imperfection of Islam and in doing so swell their own chests, is ingenious as well as cheap shot.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    That is what Ashish is saying.. While others reformed and go through constant adaptation, Muslims seem to be stuck. Why is there no reformist movement…or leave alone reformism –why is there no a strong, loud, cross country movement against the violence, and how that violence is really lumping 90% of law abiding, “god loving” good Muslims into the violent group by people all over the world.. Because even in these blogs, most of Muslims and Muslim sympathisers have always tried to downplay the worldwide Islamic violence, and even worse, try to equivovcate with what happened to Jains 2000 years ago, or crusades in medieval period, or US bombing Hiroshima, or us invasion of iraq. Then one has to wonder “do they get it, are they really stupid, what world are they living, how deep is their problems”

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    As you know, I will not condone any violence, including Jehadi violence.

    I think the conflict is not just between Islam and the rest of the world, but also within factions of Islam.

    However, as I have said before whilst I condemn Islamic violence, I am also afraid of RSS Violence.

    As far as why is there no Reformist movement, I am afraid I do not know. I am not qualified enough to answer that question or offer an informed opinion.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ravi
    Practice of violenec both historical and current is not just restricted to Islam, it is also practiced by the Hindu Right.
    AND
    However, as I have said before whilst I condemn Islamic violence, I am also afraid of RSS Violence. As far as why is there no Reformist movement, I am afraid I do not know. I am not qualified enough to answer that question or offer an informed opinion.

    Let us, instead of trying to align ourselves on two sides of the political spectrum, clearly understand the respective scales. I would also like to examine the causation argument which seems to be buried in most of the discourses- Hindu upper caste provocation and “atyachaar” leads to Dalit, Maoist, Muslim, Sikh, Naga, Manipuri— alienation and subsequent uprisings.
    In no particular order, here we go:
    1. Causation of Islamic terrorism- in India, blame it on RSS/ Sangh Parivar. In Middle East- blame it on Israel. And, of course- American greed for oil is omnipresent. That leads to a grand-alliance between the Hindu-Zionist- American forces to subjugate the religion of peace.
    Ravi, it is always dangerous- and you have definitely read more history than I have- to write history of the present times. One simply does not have the perspective or the necessary detachment. Having said that, I do not think any sensible person would subscribe to this “grand alliance” theory. And, if you did not, then, what you need to seriously think about is that Muslims seem to be constantly arrayed against other forces- no matter which country they are in. In any country Muslims are in a minority, they have a “minority problem”. In countries with a Muslim majority- and I am not talking about the gulf countries- the minorities face severe discrimination. You can’t open a business in Malaysia without a “Bhumiputra” partner for instance.
    Now, I am quite willing to take a long term historical perspective. For example, if I was living in the times of the inquisition, and I could get away with blogging anonymously :-) , I would definitely not be charitable about Christianity. But, as Binoy Hegde underlines, forces of change are sweeping though all religions. You are welcome to list Sati, Devadasi, temple prostitution and all such ills- but, tell me, honestly, how many so called “Hindu Fundoos” on this blog will support Sati/ Devadasi… or untouchability? How many, did you find justifying Hindu terror- even as a mitigating force, as a “reaction to Muslim terror”? I guess you know the question I am leading to and I will leave that unasked :D
    It was interesting to get your perspective on the Sikhs; though I am not sure you responded to my provocative poser :P , honestly I am grateful for the education.
    2. Why does not Islam reform? There is a strong school of thought, which I do not necessarily agree with, that seeks to explain it in terms of “defensive behaviour” – more you tell them to reform, more they retreat into their shell. More you point out that their way of living is counter-modern, and the more they seek solace in the scriptures.
    Having lived in Malaysia and having grown up in Calcutta, I can tell you from first hand experience- that,
    - the rise in outward signs of religiosity is real. This extends to friends who used to come home for Saraswati Puja, go out for a beer, not worry about halaal food on our evenings out in Tangra (Chinese eateries).. now they don’t; period.
    - It is uncanny that the younger generation of Malays are more demonstrably Muslim.

    Now, if you seek to draw the lesson from this that “non-interference” in the Muslim affairs is the way to go, I am afraid I do not agree. And, I would quote examples from the Hindu reforms- most significant Hindu religious reforms have happened in the British times. Without the administrative might of the Brits, I doubt Rammohan, Vidyasagar or Dayanand Saraswati would have succeeded.
    I think Muslims in India have a golden chance- and so does our government- to ruthlessly ram down truly secular reforms and push for universal education, equal opportunity and entitlements. But, (and it is not a cheap shot) the history of Congress in social reforms is regressive. And, BJP, should it ever come to power- will be so defensive about its image- will never push personal law reforms.
    It is indeed a pity.

    shan Reply:

    Why does not Islam reform? Dont need rocket science. FEAR FOR LIFE. No counter argument, NO LITERATURE as shoebK points out , no chaucer, voltaire . and no Martin Luther , again why not , again answer is VIOLENCE. When violence is met with violence a la American Civil war , when winter comes can spring be far behind. Also their is no middle class only ruling class mass poor and tiny middle class. BOTTOM LINE IS FREEDOM TO EXPRESS , without fearing for own’s life.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I mostly agree with you.

    Would like to add the following points.

    1. Jews were/are waiting for a Messiah.

    2. Jesus did not say he was it, but his followers said, that he was.

    3. To create a Unique Selling Proposition, the Christians believe that Jesus was the SON of God.

    In and atmospheres like that…

    4. Muhammad came and said that the MESSAGE has been revealed to him by GOD himslef.

    Once you make that as a central plank of your Theosophy, then modernisation and interpretation becomes very difficult.

    Ravi Reply:

    Sam

    Just forgot to mention, that by creating UNTOUCHABLES, Hinduism was the first religion to have created APARTHIED.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    This article is about ISLAMIC Terrorism…

    Islam condones slavery and occupying other peoples lands.

    When Hindus go and occupy Makkah/Madinah and practice untouchability, then I will condemn Hindu religion.

    Until then, I will only condemn Islam, which gives them a right to levy Jizya on Hindus.

    Ravi Reply:

    Sam

    This is plain silly and is displaying your Islamophobia.

    ram autar Reply:

    hinduism is the only religion which claims thaims that man is born unequal.that is why war between islam and hiduism is eternal.swami vivekanand in his losangeles speech told the world that men are equal,
    when he returned back brhmins pressurised him to take back his words.he agreed.then only suredra nath banerjee mayor of calcutta agreed ti give him public reception.
    but he was pushed to poverty and died in lap of a prostitute in a brothel of calcutta.

    Sam Reply:

    >This is plain silly and is displaying your Islamophobia.
    For a change, Hindus should occupy Makkah/Madina…
    Why is it islamophobia ?
    Hindu’s should liberate the Kaabah from islam and give it back to the pre-islam arabs.

    For 14 centuries that sacred place is forcefully occupied by islam…
    time to liberate it..

    shan Reply:

    @Mohammad Saad, This is the problem , DENIAL. .There are muslims and there are muslims.
    The first variety is no different from hindus other than the name and surname , marriage ritual and burial , perhaps no problem in eating beef(which most hindu surname bloggers here also have no problem with as well as with pork) . Then there are the other variety who go by every word of THAT BOOK. TO THESE PEOPLE ALLAH IS NOT IMPORTANT , ISLAM IS.And Isalm is not a religion of peace. no religion is , they cant be , like the political party , they have to DOMINATE , and that needs violence . So lets get this out of the wat this canard , islam is a religion of peace. But then again that should not be a problem , because you nedd to decide what you want ALLAH OR ISLAM.
    Also there is massive argument questioning the AUTHENTICITY of Quoran . It was written down 200 yrs after it was so called revealed , apparently the very reason it was written down is because every body was claiming everything and using quoran as apretext. Same with hadith , written 800 yrs after death from HEARSAY. These bombers draw inspiration and succour from such fraudent source. Unless this is addressed nothing will change , beause the terrorist are TRUE TO THE LETTER OF THE BOOK.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    These bombers draw inspiration and succour from such fraudent source. Unless this is addressed nothing will change , beause the terrorist are TRUE TO THE LETTER OF THE BOOK.

    thes bombers are son of soil fighting american occupation and slavery.ltte tamil tigers were doing same.it is absolutely wrong to say that t is because of religion.why bthere is no suicide attacke in jakarta kualampur or dubai.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    I think most of what you say is agreeable except that you subtly – once again – mentioned by name issues with Islam, whilst not explicitly itemising the same for Hinduism.

    So I will do it.

    If all religions resort to violence to dominate, then that is true not Jsut for Islam, but also of Hinduism.

    The stories of Both the Ramayana as well as Mahabharata existed in ORAL form long before they were committed to text. In fact both these books over the centuries have been edited. So once again, your correct point is true both of Islam as well as Hinduism.

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    KORAN———Was written —-not after 200 yrs–It was done during OSMAN [R A ]– 13/14
    years–after death of PROPHET [PBU ].

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Ram

    You have gone out of way to either justify all these Islamic terrorism or to negate that it is all created by others.

    You really believe 9/11 was not done by the 19 Saudis, or Qureshi did not decapitate Daniel pearl, or 11/26 was not done by Pakistanis…

    Just say yes or no…no need for motivations or why

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr sam,

    if the 19 saudis were in plane ,why iraq was attacked and then afghanistan.iraq had no alqaeda cell.where are the dead bodies of passengers and their hijackers.till they show dead bodies ,awnser will be no.

    750 top intellectuals of america confirmed through signed letters that sept 11 was inside job.
    purpose was to sell iraq war to innocent americans.plane which flew was 747 ,which hit the tower was 767 as per their engine id no.

    26/11 was joint game of international zoinism with help of hindu zoinists to achieve their national and international.terror module was purchased from pakistan.
    pakistan is not in position to go to war with india .cia uses indian and pakistan agents to achieve their geo-political aims.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    the awnser is for raju kurien not for mr sam.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram autar

    I would like ask you the following.

    1. If the only reason for the attack on twin towers was to prepare the US population for a war and to provide US an excuse to attack Iraq, then it was a hell of an expensive way of doing it. Could the same objective not have been achieved by some less expensive and lethal way?

    2. Conspiracy theories thrive around the world and more so in US than any place else. I said once before, there were petitions and signature attesting the murder of JFK was a CIA plot. These never come to anything more that minor entertainment.

    3. You would still like people to believe that GOI bought a terror cell and attacked its own people. I am afraid this is a theory too far and I for one am not convinced.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    The subject of the blog is “Islamist terror. Where we are now”. ” It is not about Hindu untouchability (many people get excited to talk about that or how jains were killed thousands of years ago or what Manusmruthi say.. One thing for sure, India will have many Muslim experts on Manusmruthi and they will ebcome the authoriatative source!)

    A few , including Zia, have stated the Islamic terrorism is on the decline. A few have said it is only a 10 year phenomenon and Islamic terrorism wasnt there before that. A few have said there never was ISlamic terrorism; it is a well thought out plot by governments for certain results. A few have said a Muslim can never be a terrorist, Islam’s tenets just do not allow (this , from newspapers, I believe is the dominant view in Pakistan – that a pakistani can never bomb sufi, shia etc shrines; it is done by Israel, In diam, and US) .\

    As Shan said, denial is not a strategy nor solution.

    First of all it is not a ten year phenomenon. The first world tarde center attack happened in 1993. US just did not take its erious enough. The US embassy attacks in Africa happened in mid 90s. It was only after USSCole attack, followed by the 9/11 that US started to take this Islamic terrorism seriously and started connecting the dots …They are still trying to connect the dots, by keeping the Pakistan dots epaartely, at least from an outsider perspective.

    Now, is it on the wane? How does one know that? When can one make a statement about that? The fact that more attempts are uncovered before they are exceuted is agood thing. But it shows that terrorists are quite busy. I believe, based on the arrests and news coming from US, there will be quite a lot of attacks there. 90 may get detected, but statistically one or two will succeed. The same thing will happen in Europe.

    I am of the firm opinion that Islamic terrorism is the biggest threat facing 21st century, and it is not on the wane. I have come to this opinion based on what is unfolding here in the tiny kerala, in the tiny district of Kannur (and in other districts). I have come to the conclusion that there are dedicated Jehadists among our neighvbours who are committed to doing major harm to the country, countries.
    These jehadists are interconnected, and Pakistanis are involved , at least in the Kerala case. The Intelligence chief looking into the deathseof four Kerala Muslim boys in Kashmir stated on TV yesterday that one Wahed Khan from Pakistan is involved in the recruiting and they are pursuing (?) him. Hundreds of them have been arrested – for getting training under LeT, for traveling to Pakistan, for participating in a weapon training camp in Wagamon (the banned SIMI had two weapon training camps in Wagamon), for participating in Bangalore and Hyderabad explosions…

    Their interrogations also revealed that they hate Moderate Muslims (represented by IUML who has contested kerala elections from day 1 and have several assembly seats and ministerial births in Congress led govts) as much as they ahte kauffers. A wealth of info was gathered about the extremists plans and genda in the recent incident related to the hand chopping of the Christian professor.

    If (some) Muslims of Kerala can be persuaded to be Jehadis for the cause of the believer, I believe it will be simply much more easier to persuade Muslims from northern India (becausse of segregated communities, lack ofe ducation, wealth etc).

    The prognosisis not pleasant. Sleeper cell jehadis are just waiting for the opportunity. And they do not care for Muslims or non-Muslims, they do not care for life or living..

    shan Reply:

    @Haram Autar, your words
    swami vivekanand in his losangeles speech told the world that men are equal,
    when he returned back brhmins pressurised him to take back his words.he agreed.then only suredra nath banerjee mayor of calcutta agreed ti give him public reception.
    but he was pushed to poverty and died in lap of a prostitute in a brothel of calcutta
    You are on a high , we all know how easy it is to get marijuhana and hashish in pakistan . Your statement has the same validity as someone saying you were born from a dog or *****(female dog)
    Vivekananda most likely died of a silent heart attack without any chest pain because of diabetes, as with diabetes nerves die , so people dont feel pain . Though his followers beleived it was Iccha Mrityu, that is he choose the time to die, which is of course complete non sense.

    ram autar Reply:

    but he died in a brothel this is fact.u cannot deny.he was also forced to change his statement by brhmns of calcutta.his brother surendra nath dey was revolutionary why he choosen to serve brhmnsm i dont understand.may be he wanted to take safe way.

    shan Reply:

    @AlQuaida avatar, this is how swamiji died.
    Soon the chapel bell rang the seven o’clock call for evening worship. Quietly, with a word that none should disturb him, he went to his own room for an hour’s meditation. Then he called one of his disciples in and asked him to open all the windows and fan his head. Without a word, he lay down and a silence enveloped the room. The disciple continued to fan the Swami. Minutes passed and not a word was uttered. It was presumed that Vivekananda was either sleeping or gone into deep meditation and in any event it was not for the disciple to disturb him either by word or deed.

    At the end of an hour, says Swami Nikhilananda in the Swami’s official biography, Vivekananda’s hands trembled a little and he seemed to take a deep breath. There followed a shattering silence. The Swami again took a similar deep breath. ‘His eyes became fixed in the center of his eyebrows, his face assumed a divine expression and eternal silence fell.’

    Swamiji was one of the greatest thinker of modern times , when he went to WORLD CONGESS OF RELIGION , he started by addressing MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF AMERICA , not unbeleivers and infidels of america. he also did not like the priest class and thought was the root cause of india’s decline. He also had some nice words to say for Islam . He said INDIA NEEDS VEDANTIC MIND AND ISLAMIC BODY.
    nOW LETS TALK ABOUT TEN TIMES MARRYING PROPHET WHO MARRIED A THIRTEEN YEAR OLD WHO WAS SEEN ENTERING PROPHET’S HOUSE WITH HER DOLLS.
    This is your prophet , after Aisha is caught in the arms of Safiyan
    I cannot believe A’isha would do such a thing,” Muhammad said. His voice was
    a broken shell, fragile and jagged. “I have loved her since she sprang from her mother’s
    womb. I have played dolls with her and her friends. I have drunk from the same bowl
    with her . Incredible isn’t it.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Who are you educating Shan? They can’t think beyond low life Mohammad?

    Ravi Reply:

    Would you like to talk about copious amounts of sperm gushing out of Vishnu’s loins as he was presiding over the wedding of Shiv and Parvati.

    What about the fact the MK Gandhi was married and consummated his marriage at the age of 13.

    Child marriage is normal among Hindus, cases like that regularly surface in Gujarat and Rajasthan.

    Pre pubescent Girls are married off to deities and then raped by Hindu priests.

    Old widow men are married to under age girls in Bengal so that the old man can go to heaven.

    There are sects of Shiva where the Chandals and their friends openly indulge in cannibalism.

    To stop Sati in some parts of Bengal girls are made to marry trees.

    Unacceptably large proportion of girls in a survey have admitted being molested and raped by a relative significantly under age.

    SHAN, two can play this game.

    I can produce more.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    How about Jinnah kidnapping and abduct daughter of his Parsi client? What about Mohammad molesting Ayesha in front of her father? What about Mohammad raping wife of his adopted son?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    You can see how sensitive Ravi talibani is when it comes to criticising Islam and Pedo Mohammad. Do we need more proof that ravi is actually a true follower of pedo mohammd?

    ram autar Reply:

    mr shan i am not against swamijee.i am against what brhmns did to him.he was forced to
    eat his words brhmnst surendra nath banerjee.only because he was kayasth a shudra.he was pushed to poverty.

    shan Reply:

    @ravi circumcised, wife beater, we are taliking about somebody who played with a girl with her dolls , saw hher born AS SHE WAS THE DAUGHTER OF HIS MATE. repugnant really. Vishnu is not somebody with flesh it is imagination. There have been awful things in hinduism as well ., but this was wiped out whereas in islam BECAUSE OF KUTTARS like you it still THRIVES.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    My Lun Goat wearing HINDU FUNDO adversary.

    So you worship Imaginary Gods, but then they become real when land needs to appropriated.

    What kind of a Hindu Fundo are you.

    Was MKG an imagination, he did marry at 13 and consummate it.

    Devdasis are pre-pubescent – aged 9 or so—the priests are their local people, probably married off their mothers and saw them grow-up. So much HINDU FUNDO, IRRATATIONALISM, INHUMAN, degenerate, gutter snipe, these girls are so poor that they would not even have seen a doll.

    You are so subsumed by your congenital Islamophobia that you have lost all reasonable faculties.

    How can any thing from Hindusim be wiped out because of semi naked vermin like you. All that I have pointed out is still prevalent in India.

    Ravi Reply:

    Child marraige is not just a Muslim or Mohammad phenomenon, it is wide spread and irrelevant to any discussion here.

    It is used by illiterate Hindu Fundo’s like SHAN as a cheap shot because they are inherently ISLAMOPHOBES.

    _____

    Among the Vedda of tropical Sri Lanka, girls married before the age of nine and had relations with their husbands before sexual maturity.[33]

    In Chiras in Persia, girls married before puberty.[33]

    Among the Atjeh of Sumatra, girls married at an age before that of puberty. The husbands, though usually older, were still unfit for sexual union[33]

    Among the islanders of Fiji, marriage took place before puberty.[33]

    _______

    Until 2008, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints practised child marriage through the concept ’spiritual (religious only) marriages,’ as soon as girls are ready to bear children, as part of its polygamy practice and laws have raised the age of legal marriage in response to criticism of the practice.[citation needed] In 2008, the Church changed its policy in the United States to no longer marry individuals younger than the local legal age.[citation needed]

    _____________

    Researchers analyzed data from a national family health survey in India that was conducted from 2005 to 2006 in India. The survey involved 22,807 Indian women who were aged between 20 and 24 at the time of the survey.

    Of these, 22.6 percent were married before they were 16, 44.5 percent were married when they were between 16 and 17, and 2.6 percent were married before they turned 13.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    I fail to understand why you are wasting so much time on talibani sympathisers such as Ravi and Ram Autar. For these guys excpet for Pedo Mohammad everyone else is fit for insult.
    You can not except anything better from guys who believe child molester, highway robber, polygamist, epileptic, maglomaniac, rapist, murderer Mohammad as perfect men…

    Ignore these cancers of humankind..

    Rajeev Reply:

    This is for fundoos like ravi and talibani autar-
    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran
    Pedophilia in the Quran
    From WikiIslam
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old, and had sexual intercourse with her while she still remained pre-pubescent at the age of nine. This fact has been recorded many times in Sahih ahadith. This article will discuss the Qur’anic verse that allows Paedophilia.

    March 23, 2010: Women protesters hold up copies of the Qur’an outside parliament in Sanaa while stating that a proposed law banning marriages under the age of 17 in Yemen is un-Islamic[1]Contents [hide]
    1 Introduction
    2 Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic
    3 Tafsirs of the Verse
    3.1 Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
    3.2 Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen
    3.3 ‘Ibn Kathir
    3.4 Al-Jalalayn
    3.5 Ibn Abbas
    3.6 Al-Wahidi
    3.7 Al-Tabari
    3.8 Al-Zamakhshari
    3.9 Tabrasi
    3.10 Al-Shoukani
    3.11 Abu-Hayyan
    4 Evidence from the ahadith
    5 Apologetic objections
    5.1 The Qur’an prohibits marriage to pre-pubescent females
    5.2 The Arabic word “Nisa” does not refer to young females
    5.3 This verse applies to married teenagers
    5.4 65.4 talks only of the ‘Iddah and not of sexual activity
    5.5 This verse is only talking about adult women who don’t know if they are pregnant
    5.6 This verse is applied to unconsummated widows
    6 Conclusion
    7 See Also
    8 External Links
    9 References

    [edit] Introduction
    The Qur’an has stipulated a waiting period which women must observe before they can remarry. This waiting period must be observed after they are divorced, or if their husbands have died. In the Qur’an, this is called Iddah or Iddat (العدة‎). However, there is one exception to this requirement in Qur’an 33:49:

    ياايها الذين امنوا اذا نكحتم المؤمنات ثم طلقتموهن من قبل ان تمسوهن فمالكم عليهن من عدة تعتدونهافمتعوهن وسرحوهن سراحا جميلا

    Transliteration: Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha nakahtumu almuminati thumma tallaqtumoohunna min qabli an tamassoohunna fama lakum AAalayhinna min AAiddatin taAAtaddoonaha famattiAAoohunna wasarrihoohunna sarahan jameelan

    Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon. But content them and release them handsomely.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 33:49
    From the verse above it is understood that Iddah (stipulated waiting period) is required if sexual contact has occurred within the marriage. If a woman is not touched by her husband, she should not have to observe any waiting period at all.

    After the mention of women who have not had their marriage consummated, the Qur’an goes further – discussing the women who need to observe the ‘iddah, and the span of time required. We see in Qur’an 65.4:

    واللائي يئسن من المحيض من نسائكم ان ارتبتم فعدتهن ثلاثة اشهر واللائي لم يحضن واولات الاحمال اجلهن ان يضعن حملهن ومن يتق الله يجعل له من امره يسرا

    Transliteration: Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran

    Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 65:4
    Here the ‘Iddah is prescribed to three categories of women:

    First the phrase: “Yaisna min al-maheedhi” which means “those women who are desperate of menses” is an indication to women who reached the stage of menstruation but do not menstruate and of those who reached menopause. Desperate of menses underlines that it concerns women who though reached the age, fail to menstruate too. Their ‘Iddah period is three months.
    Next comes, “Wallaee Lam yahidhna” which means “those who have not menstruated yet” This group of females are pre-pubescent girls who have not yet menstruated. Here the ‘Iddah prescribed for them is equal to the previous group of women (ie. three months).
    Lastly, the women who are pregnant – their prescribed ‘iddah is until they have given birth.
    The above translation of the verse masks the real meaning, so the verse has to be studied in Arabic. The true meaning of this verse and its implications are explicitly endorsed by Tafsirs as will be shown below.

    [edit] Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic
    The Qur’an says in Arabic:

    واللائي لم يحضن” فعدتهن ثلاثة أشهر

    “and those who never had menses” (because they are underage)

    Quran 65:4
    Tafsir from al-Islam.com
    The transliteration of the verse and the meaning of each portion of the verse is given below:

    Wa Al-Lā’ī Lam Yaĥiđna

    wa ( وَ ) = and

    Al-Lā’ī ( وَاللَّائِي ) = for those who

    Lam ( لَمْ ) = did not (negation in past tense) [2]

    Yaĥiđna ( يَحِضْنَ ) = menstruate.

    Yaĥiđna comes from the verbal root H-Y-D ( حيض ) which means “to menstruate”.

    The addition of prefix “Ya” and suffix “na” to the root “HYD” shows that the word is used in used in third person, feminine gender, plural, imperfective aspect.[3]

    The imperfective aspect, by itself lacks any tense feature. [2] The tensed negatives like lam ( لَمْ ) (negation in past tense), lan ( لن ) (negation in future tense), laa ( لَ ) (negation in present tense) combined with imperfectives decide the tense in this case.

    Thus lam Yadrus = He did not study.

    In the verse 65:4, Lam Yaĥiđna = ‘those who did not menstruate’.

    Further the imperfective verb in the context of lam ( لَمْ ) (past tensed negatives) is in the Jussive mood. [2] From Wikipedia:

    The mood is similar to the cohortative mood, in that it expresses plea, insistence, imploring, self-encouragement, wish, desire, intent, command, purpose or consequence. In some languages, the two are distinguished in that cohortative occurs in the first person and the jussive in the second or third. It is found in Arabic, where it is called the مجزوم, majzum. The rules governing the jussive in Arabic are somewhat complex. [4]

    Supporting these meanings, from Lane’s lexicon, Lam (ل) means ‘not’:

    Lam = ل
    lam = Negative particle giving to the present the sense of the perfect; not.[5]

    Lane’s Lexicon for Lam
    From the Lexicon, Arabic word for Menstruate is ‘Haiz’ (حيض):

    Ha-Ya-Dad (Ha-Alif-Dad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
    hada vb. (1) impf. act. 65:4

    mahid n.m. 2:222

    Lane’s Lexicon, Volume 2, page: 322, 323[6]

    Lane’s Lexicon for Haa
    Conclusion:

    It is clear the verse 65:4 is given as a command to be followed (Jussive mood).
    The verse itself refers to those women who did not menstruate(in all of past time until the present time), which can include children or girls before puberty or attainment of menarche (first period).
    Therefore, the exact translation of this portion of Qur’an 65:4 is “Not menstruated yet” ( لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ). In Arabic, the menstruating process is called HAIDH ( حيض ). It is possible to turn this noun into its verb form. Like we do it with menstruation, “menstruate” is YAHIDH ( يَحِض ). But it is LAM ( لَمْ ) that appears before YAHIDH and the NA ( نَ ) associated with YAHIDH and this puts Islamic apologists in a quandary because it cannot have any other meaning than “Not menstruated yet”. This is the appropriate English translation.

    This verse 65:4 should be read as a continuation of Qur’an 33:49. If a woman who has not been used for sex should not have to observe any Iddah at all, as mentioned in 33:49, what is the reason for the prescribed Iddah for those women who have not yet menstruated? This is a clear indication marrying pre-pubescent girls and having sex with them is sanctioned by the Qur’an.

    The phrase found in Qur’an 65:4 as “Wallaee Lam Yahidhna” is sometimes mistranslated by apologists. Exact meaning of the phrase is available in Tafsirs (Quran interpretations). Let Mufassirs clarify the issue of “Wallaee Lam Yahidhna”:

    [edit] Tafsirs of the Verse
    Only the relevant parts from the Tafsirs will be quoted, because quoting the tafsir’s for the verse in their entirety will be space consuming and a waste of effort. What needs to be confirmed will be extracted from Tafsirs. If anyone doubts whether these have been quoted out of context, the reference is given on each Tafsirs so it can be verified by checking original sources.

    [edit] Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
    Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

    Commentary on Qur’an Chapter 65:4
    Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur’an
    Note here what Maududi mentions on giving pre-pubescent girls in marriage and consummating the marriage with them. The interpreter affirms it is permitted by the Qur’an and no Muslims can question or forbid it.

    [edit] Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen
    Surah al-Talaaq 65:4: If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ‘iddah is three months, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise.[7]

    Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, Majmoo’at As’ilah tahumm al-Usrah al-Muslimah, p. 61-63
    The reason for bringing two more recent scholars is to show that nothing has changed in the Islamic tenets on marrying and having sex with pre-pubescent girls, even in this modern era.

    [edit] ‘Ibn Kathir
    The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.

    The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses (Qur’an 65:4)
    Tafsir Ibn Kathir
    [edit] Al-Jalalayn
    And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months – both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.

    Qur’an 65:4
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn
    [edit] Ibn Abbas
    (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! “What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.” Another man asked: “what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?” (And for those with child) i.e. those who are pregnant, (their period) their waiting period (shall be till they bring forth their burden) their child. (And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah) and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, (He maketh his course easy for him) He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well.

    Qur’an 65:4
    Tafsir Ibn Abbas
    [edit] Al-Wahidi
    (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) [65:4]. Said Muqatil: “When the verse (Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart…), Kallad ibn al-Nu‘man ibn Qays al-Ansari said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is the waiting period of the woman who does not menstruate and the woman who has not menstruated yet? And what is the waiting period of the pregnant woman?’ And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse”. Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim who said: “When the waiting period for divorced and widowed women was mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah, Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet], those who are too old [whose menstruation has stopped] and those who are pregnant’. And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”.

    Qur’an 65:4
    Al-Wahidi, Asbab al-nuzul
    [edit] Al-Tabari
    The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

    Tafsir Al-Tabari, 14/142
    [edit] Al-Zamakhshari
    روي أن ناساً قالوا: قد عرفنا عدة ذوات الأقراء، فما عدة اللائي لا يحضن؛ فنزلت: فمعنى إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ }: إن أشكل عليكم حكمهن وجهلتم كيف يعتددن فهذا حكمهنّ، وقيل: إن ارتبتم في ذم البالغات مبلغ اليأس وقد قدروه بستين سنة وبخمس وخمسين، أهو دم حيض أو استحاضة؟ { فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ } وإذا كانت هذه عدة المرتاب بها، فغير المرتاب بها أولى بذلك { وَٱلَّٰۤئى لَمْ يَحِضْنَ } هن الصغائر

    Qur’an 65:4
    Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Kashshaaf
    The bold text means “Those who have not menstruated” are young girls.

    [edit] Tabrasi
    { واللآئي لم يحضن } تقديره واللآئي لم يحضن إن ارتبتم فعدتهن أيضاً ثلاثة أشهر وحذف لدلالة الكلام الأول عليه وهن اللواتي لم يبلغن المحيض ومثلهن تحيض على ما مرَّ بيانه.

    Qur’an 65:4
    Tabrasi
    The bold text translates as “They are those who haven’t reached the age of menstruation”. Tabrasi comments on the phrase “Wallaee Lam yahidhna” = “Those who have not menstruated yet” in the verse.

    [edit] Al-Shoukani
    { فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَٱللاَّئِى لَمْ يَحِضْنَ } لصغرهن، وعدم بلوغهن سن المحيض، أي: فعدتهن ثلاثة أشهر

    Qur’an 65:4
    Al-Shoukani, Fath al-Qadir
    The bold part translated as: “Those who have not menstruated yet” are young girls who have not reached the age of menstruation.

    [edit] Abu-Hayyan
    واللائي لم يحضن } ، فالعدة هذه، فتلخص في قوله: { إن ارتبتم } قولان: أحدهما، أنه على ظاهر مفهوم اللغة فيه، وهو حصول الشك؛ والآخر، أن معناه التيقن للإياس؛ والقول الأول معناه: إن ارتبتم في دمها، أهو دم حيض أو دم علة؟ أو إن ارتبتم في علوق بحمل أم لا؛ أو إن ارتبتم: أي جهلتم عدتهن، أقوال. والظاهر أن قوله: واللائي لم يحضن } يشمل من لم يحض لصغر،

    Qur’an 65:4
    Abu-Hayyan
    The bold: “Those who have not menstruated yet” denotes those not menstruated because of being young.

    [edit] Evidence from the ahadith
    Here are a few quotes from Imam Bukhari in his book of Tafsir and hadith collections:

    Mujahid said that “if you have any doubt” (65:4) means if you do not know whether she menstruates or not. Those who do not longer menstruate and those who have not yet menstruated, their ‘idda is three months.

    Bukhari CCCLXXXIV, The Tafsir of Surat at-Talaq
    Giving one’s young children in marriage (is permissible) by virtue of the Statement of Allah: ‘And for those who have courses’ (i.e. they are still immature) (Sura 65:4) And the ‘Iddat [waiting period for a woman before lawful sexual intercourse] for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).

    Bukhari (Chapter 39)
    Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, “Marry her to me O Allah’s Apostle!” The Prophet asked (him), “Have you got anything?” He said, “I have got nothing.” The Prophet said, “Not even an iron ring?” He Sad, “Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half.” The Prophet; said, “No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?” He said, “Yes.” The Prophet said, “Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur’an (as her Mahr).” ‘And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the ‘Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:63
    The following is the Sahih hadith explaining the verse by Muhammad himself:

    واللائي لم يحضن , فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ) ‏ ‏أي فدل على أن نكاحها قبل البلوغ جائز

    “and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible.”[8]

    The following Muwatta hadith shows its permissable to marry girls who have not reached puberty:

    Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, visited Umm Salama while she was in mourning for Abu Salama and she had put aloes on her eyes. He said, “What is this, Umm Salama?” She said, “It is only aloes, Messenger of Allah.” He said, “Put it on at night and wipe it off in the daytime.”

    Malik said, “The mourning of a young girl who has not yet had a menstrual period takes the same form as the mourning of one who has had a period. She avoids what a mature woman avoids if her husband dies.”

    Malik said, “A slave-girl mourns her husband when he dies for two months and five nights like her idda.

    Malik said, “An umm walad does not have to mourn when her master dies, and a slave-girl does not have to mourn when her master dies. Mourning is for those with husbands.”

    Al-Muwatta 29 33.108
    [edit] Apologetic objections
    [edit] The Qur’an prohibits marriage to pre-pubescent females
    Modern apologists who reject the tafsirs and the ahadith often wish to present Qur’an 65:4 as having been ‘mistranslated’ or ‘misunderstood’ throughout the ages by all of their own Islamic scholars. Instead they wish to re-translate 65:4 in a less harmful way, and then point to other verses in the Qur’an in an attempt to show that Allah did not allow Muslim men to marry pre-pubescent females. The favourite verse for this is usually Qur’an 4:6:

    وابتلوا اليتامى حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح فان انستم منهم رشدا فادفعوا اليهم اموالهم ولاتاكلوها اسرافا وبدارا ان يكبروا ومن كان غنيا فليستعفف ومن كان فقيرا فلياكل بالمعروف فاذا دفعتم اليهم اموالهم فاشهدوا عليهم وكفى بالله حسيبا
    Transliteration: Waibtaloo alyatama hatta itha balaghoo alnnikaha fa-in anastum minhum rushdan faidfaAAoo ilayhim amwalahum wala ta/kulooha israfan wabidaran an yakbaroo waman kana ghaniyyan falyastaAAfif waman kana faqeeran falya/kul bialmaAAroofi fa-itha dafaAAtum ilayhim amwalahum faashhidoo AAalayhim wakafa biAllahi haseeban

    Yusuf Ali: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

    Pickthal: Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

    Shakir: And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 4:6
    Both Yusuf Ali and Pickthal render the phrase of “marriageable age”/”age of marriage”, whereas Shakir says “attain puberty”, the actual word used is Nikah which literally translated means “****” [9] . Zuwaj [10] is the correct word for marriage in Arabic, but the Qur’an uses both words in reference to marrying women; Nikah for human females and Zuwaj for the Houris. This means that Shakir’s translation of “attain puberty” is not correct, as the actual word being translated is used regarding marriage and has nothing to do with puberty.

    Furthermore, this verse is not even discussing marriage; it’s talking about those who have guardianship over male orphans; that when they judge them to be mentally mature enough, they should give over their property to them. The verse simply says that you can start testing them for this maturity when they reach “marriageable age” – it does not specify that age. The Tafsir’s agree with this understanding of 4:6:

    Giving Back the Property of the Orphans When They Reach Adulthood
    Allah said,

    [وَابْتَلُواْ الْيَتَـمَى]

    (And test orphans) meaning, test their intelligence, as Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, As-Suddi and Muqatil bin Hayyan stated.

    [حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ]

    (until they reach the age of marriage), the age of puberty, according to Mujahid. The age of puberty according to the majority of scholars comes when the child has a wet dream. In his Sunan, Abu Dawud recorded that `Ali said, “I memorized these words from the Messenger of Allah ,

    «لَا يُتْمَ بَعْدَ احْتِلَامٍ، وَلَا صُمَاتَ يَوْمٍ إِلَى اللَّيْل»

    (There is no orphan after the age of puberty nor vowing to be silent throughout the day to the night.) In another Hadith, `A’ishah and other Companions said that the Prophet said,

    «رُفِعَ الْقَلَمُ عَنْ ثَلَاثَةٍ، عَنِ الصَّبِيِّ حَتَّى يَحْتَلِمَ، وَعَنِ النَّائِمِ حَتَّى يَسْتَيْقِظَ، وَعَنِ الْمَجْنُونِ حَتَّى يُفِيق»

    s(The pen does not record the deeds of three persons: the child until the age of puberty, the sleeping person until waking up, and the senile until sane.) Or, the age of fifteen is considered the age of adolescence. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said, “I was presented in front of the Prophet on the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age, and he did not allow me to take part in that battle. But I was presented in front of him on the eve of the battle of Al-Khandaq (The Trench) when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me (to join that battle). `Umar bin `Abdul-`Aziz commented when this Hadith reached him, “This is the difference between a child and an adult. There is a difference of opinion over whether pubic hair is considered a sign of adulthood, and the correct opinion is that it is. The Sunnah supports this view, according to a Hadith collected by Imam Ahmad from `Atiyah Al-Qurazi who said, We were presented to the Prophet on the day of Qurizah, whoever had pubic hair was killed, whoever did not was left free to go, I was one of those who did not, so I was left free. The Four Sunan compilers also recorded similar to it. At-Tirmidhi said, “Hasan Sahih. Allah’s statement,

    [فَإِنْ ءَانَسْتُمْ مِّنْهُمْ رُشْداً فَادْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَلَهُمْ]

    (if then you find sound judgment in them, release their property to them,) Sa`id bin Jubayr said that this portion of the Ayah means, when you find them to be good in the religion and wise with their money. Similar was reported from Ibn `Abbas, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and others among the Imams. The scholars of Fiqh stated that when the child becomes good in the religion and wise concerning with money, then the money that his caretaker was keeping for him should be surrendered to him.

    Giving Back the Property of the Orphans When They Reach Adulthood (Qur’an 4:6)
    Tafsir Ibn Kathir
    { وَٱبْتَلُواْ ٱلْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُمْ مِّنْهُمْ رُشْداً فَٱدْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلاَ تَأْكُلُوهَآ إِسْرَافاً وَبِدَاراً أَن يَكْبَرُواْ وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيّاً فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيراً فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ حَسِيباً }

    Try, test, well the orphans, before reaching maturity with regard [the duties of] religion and [before] they can [legally] manage their own affairs, until they reach the age of marrying, that is, until they have become eligible for it through puberty or [legal] age, which, according to al-Shāfi‘ī, is the completion of fifteen years; then, if you perceive in them maturity, that is, right [judgement] in matters of religion and their property, deliver their property to them; consume it not, O guardians, wastefully, without due merit, and in haste, that is, hastening to expend it, fearing, lest they should grow up, and become mature, at which time you will be obliged to hand it over to them. If any man, who is a guardian, is rich, let him be abstinent, that is, let him abstain from the orphan’s property and refrain from consuming it; if he is poor, let him consume, of it, honourably, that is, in line with the wage for his work. And when you deliver to them, the orphans, their property, take witnesses over them, that they have received it and that you are absolved [of the obligation], so that if any dispute occurs, you are able to refer to a clear proof: this is a command [intended] for guidance. God suffices as a reckoner, as a guardian of His creatures’ deeds and as a reckoner of these [deeds] (the bā’ [in bi’Llāhi] is extra).

    Qur’an 4:6
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn
    { وَٱبْتَلُواْ ٱلْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُمْ مِّنْهُمْ رُشْداً فَٱدْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلاَ تَأْكُلُوهَآ إِسْرَافاً وَبِدَاراً أَن يَكْبَرُواْ وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيّاً فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيراً فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ حَسِيباً }

    (Prove orphans) test the intelligence of orphans (till they reach the marriageable age) the age of puberty; (then, if ye find them of) if you see that they possess (sound judgement) righteousness in Religion and a tendency to protect their wealth, (deliver over unto them their fortune) then give their wealth which is with you; (and devour it not squandering) it in transgression and unlawfully (and in haste) in haste lest the orphan grows older and consumes it little by little (lest they should grow up) for fear that they grow older and stop you from devouring their wealth. (Whoso (of the guardians) is rich) and needs not the orphan’s wealth, (let him abstain generously) because of his richness from taking of the property of orphans, nor should he diminish anything from their wealth; (and whoso is poor) and needy (let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship)) in measure, such that he is not in need for the wealth of orphans; it is also said that this means: he should take from the wealth of orphans in proportion with the measure of his work regarding this wealth; and it is also said that this means: he can take from the wealth of orphans as a loan to be paid back. (And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans) when they reach the legal age, (have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence) when you deliver it to them. (Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner) Allah suffices as a witness. This verse was revealed about Thabit Ibn Rifa’ah al-Ansari.

    Qur’an 4:6
    Tafsîr Ibn Abbas
    { وَٱبْتَلُواْ ٱلْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُواْ النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُمْ مِّنْهُمْ رُشْداً فَٱدْفَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلاَ تَأْكُلُوهَآ إِسْرَافاً وَبِدَاراً أَن يَكْبَرُواْ وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيّاً فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيراً فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ حَسِيباً }

    (Prove orphans…) [4:6]. This was revealed about Thabit ibn Rifa‘ah and his uncle. Rifa‘ah died when his son Thabit was very young. The uncle of Thabit went to the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, and said: “The son of my brother is an orphan under my care, what is lawful for me from his wealth? And when should I give him back his wealth?” And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse.

    Qur’an 4:6
    Al-Wahidi, Asbab Al-Nuzul
    [edit] The Arabic word “Nisa” does not refer to young females
    Apologists claim that the Qur’an only uses the word Nisa to refer to mature, adult women, therefore 65:4 cannot be talking about pre-pubescent females. This is indeed a weak argument, which we can refute using the Qur’an itself. Here are some verses that use the word “nisa”:

    Transliteration: Waith najjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

    Yusuf Ali: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 2:49
    Transliteration: Waqala almalao min qawmi firawna atatharu moosa waqawmahu liyufsidoo fee alardi wayatharaka waalihataka qala sanuqattilu abnaahum wanastahyee Nisaahum wainna fawqahum qahiroona

    Yusuf Ali: Said the chiefs of Pharaoh’s people: “Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?” He said: “Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible.”

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 7:127
    Transliteration: Waith anjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuqattiloona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

    Yusuf Ali: And remember we rescued you from Pharaoh’s people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 7:141
    Transliteration: Waith qala moosa liqawmihi othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith anjakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi wayuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun

    Yusuf Ali: Remember! Moses said to his people: “Call to mind the favour of Allah to you when He delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons, and let your females live: therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 14:6
    Transliteration: Falamma jaahum bialhaqqi min AAindina qaloo oqtuloo abnaa allatheena amanoo maAAahu waistahyoo Nisaahum wama kaydu alkafireena illa fee dalalin

    Yusuf Ali: Now, when he came to them in Truth, from Us, they said, “Slay the sons of those who believe with him, and keep alive their females,” but the plots of Unbelievers (end) in nothing but errors (and delusions)!…

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 40:25
    In the above verses, the word “Nisa” is referring to female infants. To understand this clearly, we must look to the Exodus account, because these verses were plagiarized from the Bible.

    “And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah; and he said: ‘When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.’

    Exodus 1:15-16
    And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying: ‘Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

    Exodus 1:22
    Moreover the Quran itself clarifies “Who the NISA are”.

    ‏ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن ومايتلى عليكم في الكتاب في يتامى النساء اللاتي لاتؤتونهن ماكتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامى بالقسط وماتفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما
    Transliteration: Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisa-i quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisa-i allatee la tu/toonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

    Literal: And they ask for your opinion/clarification in the women, say: “God decreed/clarifies in them (F), and what is read/recited on you in The Book in the women orphans/minors that lose their father, those who (F) you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F), and you desire that you marry them (F), and the weakened from the children/new borns, and that you take care of to the orphans/minors that lose their father with the just/equitable; and what you make/do from goodness, so that God was/is with it knowledgeable.”

    Qur’an Text/Transliteration 4:127
    In summary: When Muslims asked Muhammad who the “Nisa” were, he said they were the:

    1.Orphans
    2.Female wards
    3.Those you desire to marry
    4.The weakened from the children or new born.
    [edit] This verse applies to married teenagers
    There is an alternative interpretation that does not involve pederasty, which is sexual activity between young girls and boys, i.e. early teenage years when menstruation may not have begun (or become regular) among girls, who are married to boys similar in age. This type of marriage was not uncommon in Semitic cultures, for example some scholars suggest that Mary (the mother of Jesus) was somewhere between the ages of twelve and fourteen when she married Joseph (although it should be noted that non-canonical gospels suggest Joseph was a mature man, possibly as old as ninety[11]). Given that sexual activity among teenagers is common among many cultures, including Western ones, this appears to be the most reasonable interpretation.

    Given the evidence from the Islamic texts themselves, this interpretation is not the ‘most reasonable’ as asserted. We have ample evidence that Muhammad (who is considered the uswa hasana – perfect example) married and had sex with a pre-pubescent Aisha, we have evidence that Muhammad’s companions also did it and that Muslims to this very day are marrying pre-pubescent females and having intercourse with them. In none of these cases are the husbands comparable in age to the wife. So even though this is a possible interpretation, it is by no means the only reason that Muhammad revealed this verse – as evidenced also in the tafsir’s provided above. Simply put, Muhammad did not specify an ‘iddah for those whom menstruation was not present, so one had to be sent regarding these 3 groups of women. Nowhere in the Qur’an or the ahadith does it discuss teenagers marrying teenagers (ie. to ‘explain’ this verse) and all the evidence that we have points to [much] older men marrying and having sexual relations with pre-pubescent females.

    [edit] 65.4 talks only of the ‘Iddah and not of sexual activity
    Often pointed out is the fact that 65.4 does not explictly discuss consummation or other sexual activity in regards to any of the females discussed in the verse; it merely sets the prescribed ‘Iddah required for each. The ‘iddah (prescribed waiting period) for females is required after a divorce or widowing, so that a child’s father can be correctly idenfitied. This is established in Qur’an 33:49. The verse is quoted above.

    Here are some tafsirs on this ayah:

    (يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَـتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا فَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ وَسَرِّحُوهُنَّ سَرَاحاً جَمِيلاً)
    49. O you who believe! When you marry believing women, and then divorce them before you have sexual intercourse with them, no `Iddah have you to count in respect of them. So, give them a present, and set them free in a handsome manner.)

    This Ayah contains many rulings, including the use of the word Nikah for the marriage contract alone. There is no other Ayah in the Qur’an that is clearer than this on this point. It also indicates that it is permissible to divorce a woman before consummating the marriage with her.

    (الْمُؤْمِنَـتِ)

    (believing women) This refers to what is usually the case, although there is no difference between a believing (Muslim) woman and a woman of the People of the Book in this regard, according to scholarly consensus. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, `Ali bin Al-Husayn Zayn-ul-`Abidin and a group of the Salaf took this Ayah as evidence that divorce cannot occur unless it has been preceded by marriage, because Allah says,

    (إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَـتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ)

    (When you marry believing women, and then divorce them)

    The marriage contract here is followed by divorce, which indicates that the divorce cannot be valid if it comes first. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “If someone were to say, `every woman I marry will ipso facto be divorced,’ this does not mean anything, because Allah says:

    (يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَـتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ)

    (O you who believe! When you marry believing women, and then divorce them….). It was also reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: “Allah said,

    (إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَـتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ)

    (When you marry believing women, and then divorce them.) Do you not see that divorce comes after marriage A Hadith to the same effect was recorded from `Amr bin Shu`ayb from his father from his grandfather, who said: “The Messenger of Allah said:

    «لَا طَلَاقَ لِابْنِ آدَمَ فِيمَا لَا يَمْلِك»

    (There is no divorce for the son of Adam with regard to that which he does not possess.) This was recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah. At-Tirmidhi said, “This is a Hasan Hadith, and it is the best thing that has been narrated on this matter. It was also recorded by Ibn Majah from `Ali and Al-Miswar bin Makhramah, may Allah be pleased with them, that the Messenger of Allah said:

    «لَا طَلَاقَ قَبْلَ نِكَاح»

    (There is no divorce before marriage.)

    (فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا)

    (no `Iddah have you to count in respect of them.) This is a command on which the scholars are agreed, that if a woman is divorced before the marriage is consummated, she does not have to observe the `Iddah (prescribed period for divorce) and she may go and get married immediately to whomever she wishes. The only exception in this regard is a woman whose husband died, in which case she has to observe an `Iddah of four months and ten days even if the marriage was not consummated. This is also according to the consensus of the scholars.

    (فَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ وَسَرِّحُوهُنَّ سَرَاحاً جَمِيلاً)

    (So, give them a present, and set them free in a handsome manner.) The present here refers to something more general than half of the named dowery or a special gift that has not been named. Allah says:

    (وَإِن طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ وَقَدْ فَرَضْتُمْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً فَنِصْفُ مَا فَرَضْتُمْ)

    (And if you divorce them before you have touched (had a sexual relation with) them, and you have fixed unto them their due (dowery) then pay half of that) (2:237). And Allah says:

    (لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَآءَ مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنَّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَـعاً بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ)

    (There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched them, nor fixed unto them their due (dowery). But bestow on them gift, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.) (2:236) pIn Sahih Al-Bukhari, it was recorded that Sahl bin Sa`d and Abu Usayd, may Allah be pleased with them both, said, “The Messenger of Allah married Umaymah bint Sharahil, and when she entered upon him he reached out his hand towards her, and it was as if she did not like that, so he told Abu Usayd to give her two garments. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said “If the dowery had been named, she would not be entitled to more than half, but if the dowery is not been named, he should give her a gift according to his means, and this is the “handsome manner.

    A Gift and no (Iddah) for Women Who are divorced before Consummation of the Marriage (Qur’an 33:49)
    Tafsir Ibn Kathir
    (يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُوۤاْ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ ٱلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا فَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ وَسَرِّحُوهُنَّ سَرَاحاً جَمِيلاً)

    O you who believe if you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them (read tamassūhunna or tumāsūhunna) that is, before you have copulated with them, there shall be no [waiting] period for you to reckon against them, [no] waiting period [needed to preclude pregnancy] or otherwise. But provide for them, give them what they can use for [securing] comforts, in cases where no dowry has been fixed for them; otherwise theirs is to retain half of what was fixed, but no more — this is what Ibn ‘Abbās said and it is [the opinion] followed by al-Shāfi‘ī’; and release them in a gracious manner, leave them be without [the intention to cause them any] harm.

    Qur’an 33:49
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn
    (يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُوۤاْ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ ٱلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا فَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ وَسَرِّحُوهُنَّ سَرَاحاً جَمِيلاً)

    (O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women) without naming the amount of their dowry (and divorce them before ye have touched them) before you had sexual intercourse with them, (then there is no period that ye should reckon) by counting the months or the periods of menstruation. (But content them) as is due by divorce by giving them at least a scarf or shawl (and release them handsomely) divorce them without any harm done to them.

    Qur’an 33:49
    Tafsir ‘Ibn Abbas
    This verse effectively removes the apologist’s objection to Qur’an 65.4 as we see clearly that if a man has not consummated his marriage with his wife then she does not need to observe an ‘iddah. If Qur’an 65.4 specifies that pre-pubescent females must observe a 3 month ‘iddah then clearly sexual intercourse is halal to Allah.

    [edit] This verse is only talking about adult women who don’t know if they are pregnant
    The very reason 65:4 was revealed in the first place, was as a clarification to an existing revelation by Allah. Allah had already revealed that women must wait 3 menstrual periods before they can end the ‘iddat and be free to marry again. This is in Qur’an 2:228:

    And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    Qur’an 2:228
    However, after this, Muslim men went to Muhammad to ask about those who did not presently have their menses – how do they measure the ‘iddat in those cases? It is in this circumstance that Allah sent down the clarification (65:4) for the three groups of women that did not have menstruation, therefore they could not wait the ‘3 menstrual cycles’ as mandated by Qur’an 2:228.

    Those Muslims who make this claim are ignoring what all of their own scholars have said about 65:4; that it is referring to the peri-menopausal and post menopausal women, the pre-pubescent girls and the pregnant women. The women who are currently menstruating are told in Qur’an 2:228 that they must wait 3 menstrual cycles, therefore this apologetic is also debunked.

    [edit] This verse is applied to unconsummated widows
    Another claim is that Qur’an 65.4 doesn’t necessarily mean that Muslim men can have sex with pre-pubescent females because there may be cases where a man has married a pre-pubescent female, but while waiting for her to attain menstruation before consummating the marriage, he died. The ‘iddah could be referring to a situation such as this. This claim is invalid because the Qur’an specifies the ‘iddah for all widows to be 4 months and 10 days; in Qur’an 2:234:

    And (as for) those of you who die and leave wives behind, they should keep themselves in waiting for four months and ten days; then when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner; and Allah is aware of what you do.

    Qur’an 2:234
    This verse clearly contradicts this particular apologist claim, since the ‘Iddah specified in Qur’an 65.4 is for a different amount of time, therefore the verses are referring to different situations.

    [edit] Conclusion
    The Qur’an in verse 33:49 states that no ‘Iddah is prescribed for a woman who has not had intimate contact with her husband, but goes on to stipulate the ‘Iddah for pre-pubescent girls in verse 65:4, meaning: the holiest text of Islam supports marrying and having sex with prepubescent girls. This is definitive proof that the Qur’an endorses paedophilia, the most abominable of all sexual crimes.

    ram autar Reply:

    but child marriages are far more rampant among himdus in india than any other country or religion.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    ravi

    i did not say islam is a threat; what I said was islamic terrorism is the threat to the whole world.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr gopi,threat of terrorism is from the greed of oil companies,not islam or muslim.they pauperized latin america
    philipines vietnam.now planning to bring democracy and new light in africa.game started with rwanda mascare.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    If your comment was restricted to Political Islam which is waging a war against US (in both senses of the word) then I agree with you.

    ram autar Reply:

    islam is only obstacle in their path.then will come christianity.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Islam is obstacle to lasting peace in the world..Xtianity has many elements who would like to live in peace unlike Fattu Islam.

    ram autar Reply:

    RAJU THOMAS ,

    MAGNA CARTA ,the first document of justice is copied from holy quran.why we should deny.our past is excellent our future is secured.we are on right side of history.we are under attack.we will win.villian always wins in begining.but get bashing at end.god is with us.

    shan Reply:

    With the above words Ram Autar scores his own goal , his cover is blown , he is circumcised.

    Rajeev Reply:

    HOLY Quran ;) …How ravi has been supporting talibai autar nonsense is enough proof that Ravi is himself a talibani..

    ram autar Reply:

    mr shan ,MAGNA CARTA ,the first document of justice is copied from holy quran.

    tell me if it is right or wrong.

    shan Reply:

    “Ram Autar , and that git Ashish, I have seen MAGNA CARTA, okay three pages of it . That is the best preserved specimen kept in Salisbury Cathedral. NO MAGNA CARTA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM. This was an incredible document , a forerunner of democracy or federalism if like to call it. This wasa document to curtail the power of King John , and force him to consult the barons before taking major decisions like TAX , WAR etc. Though it has also some great ideals. Like NO ONE SHALL BE DENIED JUSTICE, No one can usurp a widow’s property etcand the greatest of all
    THE KING IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    I am no philosopher, nor a cunning linguist.

    However, perhaps you can explain how Islam can be the biggest threat to 21st Century.

    If Islam was successful, will 21st Century be curtailed by what 10, 20 or 30 years?

    If Islam is a threat then it can only be to some entity like Indians, Americans or Westerners.

    If that is true, then I disagree with you. As far as modern democratic Indians are concerned whilst violent Islam is a threat, by far the GREATER threat to life in India as we know it, comes from the RSS terrorist organisation.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr ravi,
    pls find hereunder itemized awnser of ur queries.

    1.the money which america is spending is not their fathers money.they hardly care.more money means more order to their factories.plan was to force iraq to pay for war expenses.but plan has failed.they were aware of social structure of shias of iraq.now they after blood of maliki.
    for them war is divine.in sept 11 no jew is in death list.though 4500 jews were in various offices of wtc towers.only indians pakistanis and some white skinned died.why there was no jew.they were knowing about attack.
    jkf murder was zoinists game.he paid for printing american currency in americam press by american treasury.now jews print the dollar and loan the money to american goverment and imf.he wanted to liberate america from economic slavery of jews.
    media is in their hands.WHY NO ENQUIRY COMMISSION WAS ESTABLISHED ON SEPT 11.
    3.GOI WAS not involve in 26/11 attack it was joint game of zoinists and their brhmn agents
    in IB.GUNMEN WERE PROVIDED BY PAK TERROR ORGANIZATIONS.all of them work under CIA.but goverment had some knowledge.WHY AK47 WAS TAKEN FROM KARKARE AND HIS TEAM.AND INFERIOR GUNS WERE GIVEN.when intellegence was warning them
    about attack.entry in hotels was made more easy.how they stayed incst for hrs when 119 constables were there with guns.

    attack on leopold rest.was not given publicity.who cut the body parts of infant.jehadis never do it rss crowd do acts like this read the stories of victims of ahmadabad roits.

    u dont know ,zoinists are in big trouble,as their banking system is sinking.they want final victory.cannot wait any more.main game was to pressurise pakistan to attack their northern states paving the way for their victory in afghan war.which will open the route for central asian oil to flow to new york markets via karachi.problem started with kurdistan.they underestimated the will power of saddam.many time condi and rumsfield visited him in jail with request for cooperation.he refused and preffered to die.

    ram autar Reply:

    MR RAVI,one more thing which i forgot to tell u that,

    1.wtc towers were architecture dinasours.were asking too much maintenance.its demolition was must.
    2.one australian jew,involve in real state bussines purchased these towers for 3.2 billion dollars.and insured this for 7.1 billion including against terrorist attack.somebody gained 3.9 billions in this excersize without doing anything.
    3 first sept israeli goverment shifted her offices (shipping companies)from these towers.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ram Autar,
    You muslims keep coming up with cosnpiracy theories and this is the reason you people are not liked anywhere. You are fit to live in Ghetto..US is not some mid-east country that will murder its own 3000 people for strategic benefit…This is something that Saudi does not USA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    zoinists are not amereicans they hate everybody.they are nobodys friend.they are masonics will not mind all americans killed for their financial gain.like brhmns of india.

    Rajeev Reply:

    We have heard that garbage before…There are only Islamofascist who are danger to this world..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Raju,
    You should be careful while interacting with Ram Autar kind of person. You never know he may be one belonging to some sleeper cell…

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Guys,
    I appeal to all of you to ignore Jihadis like Ravi and Ram Autar who are working in tandem destroying all the debates. Ravi says he bashes hinduism because we bash Islam and then he claims to be a hindu. It is amusing the kind of logic he dishes out. He has been very supportive of Islamic terror and most of the time he justifies it citing so-called RSS terror.
    Less said the better about Talibani Autar.

    Please guys, don’t waste time on Islamic propagandists like Ravi and Autar. It is just an appeal.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    But what can you do unless the moderator steps in

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Don’t let your Lun Goat get into a twist.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    oops —
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/14/AR2010111404515.html

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde, went to the washington post article. It proves two thing , america is full of d i c k heads, and India has even greater number of d i c k heads. Also can some blogger enlighten me I thought there is a cantonment in poona , why they didn’t roll in the army.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    How about ignoring terrorist sympathisers? They should not be entertained because they are committed to wiping out non-muslims.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    DEAR RAJEEV,Hindu India” is guided and shaped by Brahminical thoughts, its reigning philosophy. M.K. Gandhi, the Gujarati Bania, hailed as the “Father of the nation” (not our nation) by the ruling upper castes (15%), finally died for Brahminism.

    Such a “holy” country packed with “great brains”, “world famous intellectuals” now finally admits that its education system, manufactured by the same brain, has utterly failed.

    The Hindu, India’s chief Brahminical daily (June 13, 2010) says top industrial bosses of India have asked the govt. to allow US universities to enter India. Why allow outsiders when our own “Brahmin brains” are the best in the world and have 150% monopoly on Indian education system from top to bottom?

    No quality education in India: The Hindu report reveals that the Brahminical big brains have themselves admitted that they can’t offer “quality education”. That means India’s education system has been a thorough failure. Our “Khatri Sick” PM is a great admirer of the Brahminical big brains. And he will be too glad to open the gate to US educational institutions headed by top Jews, all brothers of “Jews of India”.

    So apart from the financial sector, India will soon have collaboration with the Jews in the educational field also. That means India’ dying 400-odd universities will finally die. One by one the Brahminical rulers of India are handing over the country to Jews.

    Not even a shaving blade made in India: The boasting rulers shout about “India shining”, jumping, world class standards but these fellows could not manufacture even the humble razor blade for shaving. We asked many top Brahminical bosses of industry to name the blade they use. They said Gillette which is a Western product.

    Nothing is made in India except the humble but reliable bullock cart. Everything “foreign” is liked by our rulers — including the Scotch Whisky.

    The secret behind allowing US educational institutions to enter India implies that the entire 85% of the Bahujan children will be neglected and the money diverted to equip the youth of he upper castes to exploit the rest.

    ——————————————————————————–

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    In today’s world muslims are the only people who hate JEWS so much that they want to wipe out jews from the face of the earth. The Nazism is not dead but alive in the form of Islam. It is time to stand with Israel and stop genocide of jews at the hands of muslims.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    muslims dont hate jews originally we are same.we hate those who attack country after country in search of oil and gas.and minerals.

    [Reply]

    sam Reply:

    ?muslims dont hate jews originally we are same

    why can’t jewish people live in Makkah/madinah ?
    they lived there for hundreds of years before the birth of Mohd and islam ..
    then a thug shows up and calls for religious apartheid in those places and banishes jewish people..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Israel and stop genocide of jews at the hands of muslims
    jews and muslims lived together in palestine for centuries like brothers.when zoinists were descending on palestine ,EVERY JEWS GAVE MEMORENDUM TO GEN.BALFOUR opposing their arrival.they knew peace will go and it has gone.now israel has become sex capital of world.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Well, one metrics about whether Islamic terrorism is on the wane is by studying how youngsters feel about this. The first three questions asked to President Obama by the students of St Xavier were related to terrorism; their fears, responses by govt (US and India), responses to Pakistan etc.

    Now let us not blame the students and start labeling them.

    The fear is rreal, irrational may be from some people’s perspective. The opinion is not going to change unless Islamic terrorism stops.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Would you not like RSS terrorism to stop.

    Or are you in Denial about that.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Of course. The subject of this blog is not RSS worldwide terrorism; it is Islamic worldwide terrorism

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    also, the kids specifically asked about worldwide Islamic terrorism, Pakistan’s role, and why US is siding with Pakistan etc .. Let us deal with worldwide RSS terrorism and RSS terrorists bombing railway stations worldwide, and bombing planes worldwide in a different blog.

    If the Islamic terrorism was on the wane, and not on anybody’s radar, these young 18 year olds (who do not have any coverage impact of 9/11 because they were only 5-6 years old then) would not have brought it up. noow we can dismiss as them being Hindu fundoos, or Saffron or whatever . Or get out of this denial mode and comparison mode and solve these.. Solutions have to come from peope like Zia and Muslims themselves..Muslims just cannot force this “Muslims do not do these, if only you 8nderstand us…then make people understand by not doing these acts.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Yes of course the ultimate solution must come from Muslims themselves. And I am certain that once every one realises that violence is not paying any dividends then it will cease.

    By the way, have u read the ITRO to Zia’s Blog, his over all mission statement. I hope you find it agreeable.

    I will reproduce it here for your convenience.

    Zia Haq, as a five-year-old, refused to take Arabic lessons from a maulvi hired by his mother because the alphabet book wasn’t colourful enough. He revisited the Quran only as an adult, just after 9/11 to be precise, to find out if his faith was inherently violent. The ‘need to know’ soon grew into a ‘need to tell’ — that Islam needs to be understood not feared. Haq, assistant editor with the Hindustan Times, reports on minority affairs but likes to believe he’s destined for bigger things, like taking the phobia out of Islamophobia.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    On a lighter note…

    Preventing me from discussing RSS violence in a Hindustan Times blog on Islamic violence is like asking me not to mention BDSM on a blog dedicated to love.

    S Singh Reply:

    istWell, it raises questions than answers and may provide a general window of the issues. -

    Why should one take lessons in Arabic? (and dont tell me why not, because Hindus and RSS take sanskrit… first of all that is not relevant, and only 1% may be learning Sanskrit)

    Did he find whether the Book had violent sections that a less intelligent mn than him will interpret violently (such as non believer, land of Muslims etc)..

    And the need to tell – what did he tell other than inciting as to how bad is it for Muslims in india? I ahve not read anything where he says anything about reformation, how to move away from self loathing and whining, how is terrorism hurting Muslims and what can be and should be done by Muslism etc.. Well he has said Islam is a pacificist religion, that is what the Book says, take it from me….i would like him to come up with ten things for Muslims (granting that the government does not do enougha nd the usual cacophony) , with all the issues, ten things they can do themselves, ebcome a majority in attitude, India is not inherently bad, minorities have excelled here – Sikhs, Parsis, christians, Jains (even if Jains were killed as you always bring up)

    Muslims in India (and everywhere else) have to realize that nobody is standing in their way other than themselves. Violence is not a solution.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    I will deal with each of the issues in turn.

    Language – Sanskrit/Arabic/Latin/Ancient Hebrew.

    Jewish boys any where in the world recite the Torah in Ancient Hebrew which they barely understand. Whilst their mother tongue can be anything from Latvian, Russian, Polish, English, German/Malyalam/Arabic, etc.

    Latin, is still the language of Catholicism, no matter if Italian, Spanish, German, French etc are your mother tongue.

    So as you can see, use of long dead languages is not unique to Isalm and or Hinduism but is common place.

    Most Sikhs, do not understand Gurmukhi, which is not the same as Punjabi.

    Further more, in Islam, translation of Al Quran is not permitted, thus forcing Muslims the world over to recite it in Arabic. I don’t see the wisdom of it myself, but I do not find it offensive.

    VIOLENCE IN RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURES – Needless for me to remind you that the most common word in the four Veda’s is “Balidan”. Mahabharata is a story of WAR a very violent war. Ramyana is not without its fair share of violence. To understand Violence in Hinduism, no understanding is necessary, it is self evident.

    Thriving Minorities – I will not disagree that it is perfectly possible for minorities to thrive in Secular India. However, if a very right wing Hindu Govt was to come to power then I am sure it will become difficult.

    Violence is not a solution, but that is just as much true for Islam as it is for the violent RSS.

    S Singh Reply:

    Either I am quite inarticulate, or you are a “believer”/blind supporter oft Islam who does nots ee anything wrong. in the Islamic terrorism.

    The subject was the intro to Zia, one you referred to in response to my comment that the solutions for terrorism have to come from Muslims themselves . You apparently believe (based on the intro) that Zia is doing that (suggestions coming from him to “rectify” problems facing Msulims vis-a-vis Islamic terrorism. And my answer was that he is not doing enough or right, and that the intro itself provides a window as to why he cannot provide solutions.

    So, now, as usual, you are bringing Hindu terror etc… Let us stick to worldwide Islamic terrorism ,(and not Indian RSS terrorism) and what Zia can/should do.

    Arabic Language issue – Well, if he believes things can be better, Muslims will understand the book and Imam better by imparting it in local language , that is what it should be. Blindly learning Arabic just for knowing what is in the book is simply not the right way in modern times. May be that is the first simple step Musplims can make. Also, by the way you are wrong about Latin. Latin is not the language of Catholic church. The Vatican II of 1963, under Pope Paul, grante d the rights (in fact insisted) that all church sermons and prayers should be done in the local lanmgfuage. So, if you go to a RC Church in Tamil Nadu, you will hear the priest giving sermon as well as all the bible quotes in Tamil, and in Kerala, you hear it in Malayalam,a nd in karantaka , you hear it in Kananda (or English).

    VIOLENCE iN RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURES- Youa re quick to jump into other religious books has violence too. But that was not my point. It is a universal belief (by non_muslism) that some Msulims literally take what is written in the Book and practise it to cause death and violence (kill the kauffer, get rid of non believers etc). So, my question to you/Zia is how can he educate the “less brilliant” ones not to follow the violence as written in the book. My understanding of Mahabharatha, ramayana etc that you quote as violent, is not in the same league as the Prophet extolling his believers to kill non-believers. My understanding is that Mahabharatha or Ramayana or for that matter any other books like Bible, Granthsahib, Jewish Books etc does not advocate killing anybody esle who does not believe in these bookso. Again, the question was not about the Book per se, but what are people like Zia and others doing to prevent Muslims using the Book as a justification ofor the mayhem.

    And I do not understand your fixation abourt RSS.. Is RSS the reason why Muslims are blowing up all over the world. Is RSS the reason they werre putting bombs in the cargo palnes two weeks ago? Is RSS the reason when the Pakistani Muslim Air Marshal’s son decided to blow up Manhattan.. We will have another day to discuss RSS, the issue to day is whether the worldwide Islamic terrorism is on the wane.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Fair enough.

    I do not support Islamic Terrorism. I hate it.

    I do not condone Literalist approach to any Book. I hate it.

    But the point remains the same that we as individual have to understand that there are those who take the Al Quran Literally. Zia does not. We have to wean Imams away from the Deobandi and other Salafi schools of Islamic thought. Barelvi Imams do not go around saying Kill the Kufr.

    However, not every one in Islam does that. That is the conflict between the Wahabi and other more modern Islamic Schools of Jurisprudence.

    In my last blog I posted an entire poem by Baba Bule Shah, entitled Bulla Ki Jana Mein Kaun. The Sufi Islam, which is more prevalent both in India and Pakistan does not take the Al Quran literally and does not say kill the kufr.

    As far a violence in other Hindu scriptures is concerned, these books were not written as Religious Books. These were normal books that have been adopted as religious books. They were never aware of OTHER religions against which some pronouncements could be made.

    They were aware of Other People, who have been casted out of Hinduism, etc.

  • ram autar

    VISIT OF AN INDIAN DELEGATION TO PAKISTAN AND ITS OBSERVATIONS.

    The Sir Ganga Ram Heritage Foundation, which invited the delegation for the celebration of Dr. Ambedkar birth anniversary, held a big reception under the leadership of State Minister Kamran Michael, a Dalit Christian, and Lal Chand, a Dalit member of Parliament from Karachi.

    MINORITIES WELL PROTECTED
    Pakistan has just 1% religious minorities comprising Sikhs, Hindus, Christians, Dalits. All their representatives were present in full strength at the reception and said the Pakistan Govt. and its Muslim people treated its minorities as their honoured guests.

    As against this India’s upper caste rulers frequently persecuted its 15% Muslims, 20% Dalits, Sikhs and Christians (2.5% each) and Tribals (10%) — as proved from the official reports given by govt.-appointed commissions.

    Editor V.T. Rajshekar and Prof. Raju Thomas, from Kerala, addressed several meetings. Prof. Yousaf Irfan, Director of the Sir Ganga Ram Heritage Foundation, and the chief host, took all the care to make the visit a glorious success.

    Prof. Raju Thomas went round the nook and corner of Lahore and said that he did not find a single slum or a beggar anywhere in the city. This is exactly opposite of what is happening to Indian cities. Full of beggars and slums.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sir Gangaram had to flee from pakistan when murderous muslims attacked his family..They did not even spare philanthrophist like Sir Ganga Ram.

    These pakistanis reduced Hindu/Sikh population to 1% from 25%…so much for the tolerance..now they are using Blasphemy law, abduction and rapes to wipe out remaining 1%.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr rajeev ,

    sir ganga ram died in 1927 ,20 years before partition in london.his ashes are buried on the bank of ravi in pakistan.his family lives in america.
    population transfer was because roit and better economic prospects in india.minority population is 3.5%not 1%sorry for typing error.but they curse india for continuous communal roits which effect their safety in pakistan.

    [Reply]

    sam Reply:

    Why did Sir Ganga Ram’s statue removed by muslims ?
    Why did his family had to run away and some of them killed by islamist thugs ?

    Rajeev Reply:

    What about his family?

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ok fellows, ‘terrorism on the wane”… “Muslims are just like nybody else” “Islam does nt condone violence”

    This si what happens when state promotes jehadism, and couple it with the state apparatus to create mayhem ..

    Pakistan iand jehadism n 11/26 from washington Post yesterday
    http://www.washingtonpost.comwp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/14/AR2010/10111404515.html

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7QQ8-A9-k

    Listen to it carefully, then maybe it will fog in your mind.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde
  • http://- Rajeev

    Zia’s assertion that ISLAMIC terrorism is on wane is imagination of a desparate minds who just wants to get Visa for US.

    After Bush has demitted office, terrorist plots are on rise. Thank god for intelligence agencies, these plots have been unearthed on time.

    The Indian Mujahideen attacks followed by 26/11 attack were well thought out strategy by Islamists to keep Indian intelligence off-track. The stupid hindu organizations retaliated against the Indian Mujahideen attacks thus sullying the name of hindus. The congress being current day Muslim league picked up this Hindutva terror stick to beat RSS/BJP black on blue forgetting that congressmen themselves have been giving support and refuge to Indian Mujahideens on run.

    India should be prepared for more attacks from Islamists in future because congress is using our intelligence agencies for political purposes ONLY…The 26/11 happened because Karkare and co. under instructions from Congress govt. chose not to concentrate on islamic terror. To call Karkare a Martyr and victim of hindu conspiracy is an insulto actual martyrs Kamte, Salaskar, Unnikrishnan anb Bishnoi.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Contemporary Pedophilic Islamic Marriages

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Contemporary_Pedophilic_Islamic_Marriages#Pakistan
    The Islamic faith condones pedophilia. Therefore, contemporary pedophilic Islamic marriages are common practice around the globe.

    Contents [hide]
    1 Introduction
    2 Statistics
    3 Justification by Muslims
    3.1 Permitted in the Qur’an
    3.2 Permitted by Muslim Scholars and Leaders
    3.3 Committed by Muhammad
    3.4 Committed by Muhammad’s companions
    4 Recent Cases Around the World
    4.1 Australia
    4.2 Bangladesh
    4.3 Indonesia
    4.4 Iran
    4.5 Malaysia
    4.6 Pakistan
    4.7 Saudi Arabia
    4.8 United Kingdom
    4.9 United States
    4.10 Yemen
    5 Conclusion
    6 Images of pedophilic Islamic marriages
    7 See also
    8 External Links
    9 References

    [edit] Introduction
    In many Islamic countries, child marriages are common practice. Girls far below the age of puberty are forcibly married to older persons (sometimes in their 50s and later) for various personal gains by the girls’ guardian. Pedophilic Islamic marriages are most prevalent in Pakistan and Afghanistan, followed by other countries in the middle east and Bangladesh.[1][2] This practice may also be prevalent to a lesser extent amongst other Muslim communities, and is worryingly on the rise among the growing Muslim populations in many Western countries, such as the United Kingdom[3] and the United States.

    [edit] Statistics
    Azerbaijan

    93% of Azerbaijan’s population identify as Muslim.[4]

    Officials in Azerbaijan are so concerned by the number of women getting married under-age that parliament is discussing raising the minimum age for marriage to 18.
    Women’s rights activists say corrupt religious officials are prepared to conduct Islamic ceremonies for couples when the woman is too young for a state service, leaving her unprotected if her husband leaves her, uneducated and vulnerable to medical complications.
    . . .

    In Khachmaz, a city near Azerbaijan’s border with Russia, of 2,500 pupils in their final year of school, almost 130 girls were not attending since they had already married. The headmaster, she said, took no action, although education is compulsory.

    But her organisation’s research shows that the problem of young marriages is most pronounced in the southern regions bordering Iran.[5]

    Bangladesh

    According to statistics from 2005, 45% of women then between 25 and 29 were married by the age of 15 in Bangladesh. According to the “State of the World’s Children-2009” report, 63% of all women aged 20–24 were married before the age of 18.[6][7]

    Canada

    According to an article in the Toronto Sun, Muslim child brides are on the rise:

    Federal immigration officials say there’s little they can do to stop “child brides” from being sponsored into Canada by much older husbands who wed them in arranged marriages abroad.
    Top immigration officials in Canada and Pakistan say all they can do is reject the sponsorships of husbands trying to bring their child-brides to Canada. The men have to reapply when the bride turns 16. The marriages are permitted under Sharia Law.

    Muslim men, who are Canadian citizens or permanent residents return to their homeland to wed a “child bride” in an arranged marriage in which a dowry is given to the girl’s parents. Officials said some of the brides can be 14 years old or younger and are “forced” to marry. The practice occurs in a host of countries including: Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Lebanon.

    Not valid in Canada

    Canadian visa officer Steve Bulmer said in classified documents he refused to allow one Pakistani man to sponsor his 15-year-old bride in August 2009.

    “I can find no section (of law) that states the marriage is ‘invalid’ or ‘void,” Bulmer wrote in e-mails obtained by lawyer Richard Kurland under Access of Information. “I am afraid the age does not invalidate the marriage even if it is illegal to marry.”

    Abdul Hameed, of the Canadian embassy in Islamabad, said child marriages are not valid in Canada.

    “A child marriage is punishable but it does not render the marriage invalid,” Hameed said. “We are refusing such application on grounds the marriage will not be valid as per Canadian laws.”

    William Hawke, of immigration’s Permanent Resident Unit, said the young brides won’t be allowed in Canada.

    “Sponsorship applications submitted for a spouse under 16 will be refused,” he said.[8]

    Malaysia

    Data in the 2010 progress report to the United Nations on HIV in Malaysia prepared by the Ministry of Health reveals shocking statistics on the number of Muslim girls under the age of 14 who have undergone pre-marital HIV screening in order to get married.
    The data shows that 32 girls under the age of 10 and 445 girls between the ages of 10 and 14 went through this testing in 2009 alone in preparation for marriage!

    What is also significant is that this phenomenon is taking place in the more developed states in Malaysia, with the highest numbers recorded in Penang (195), Malacca (103) and Johor (87).[9]

    There was an increase in marriages involving underage Muslims in the Federal Territory last year.
    This goes against the assumption that child marriages are now on the decline due to changing cultural trends.

    Last year [2009], 49 Muslim girls under 16 years of age and 39 boys under 18 tied the knot.

    According to the statistics provided by the Federal Territory Religious Department, this number was higher compared with the previous year.
    . . .

    In 2008, 40 girls and 28 boys below the permitted age registered their marriages.
    . . .

    It was also reported last week that, according to the 2000 Census, there were 11,400 children below 15 years of age who were married — 6,800 girls and 4,600 boys.[10]

    June, 2010
    Morocco

    The legal minimum age for marriage in Morocco is 18 years, although family judges are empowered to allow exceptions. This loophole has enabled thousands of families to marry off their daughters prematurely.

    According to figures from the justice ministry, over 31,000 under-age girls were married in 2008, compared with 29,847 in 2007.[11]

    Nigeria

    One Islamic land where child marriage is common — in fact, more common than anywhere else in the world — is northern Nigeria, where Sharia is in force. The Nigerian government has tried to act against the practice, passing a law in 2003, the Child Rights Act, that set the minimum age for marriage at eighteen. Islamic clerics have been the fiercest opponents of this law.
    . . .
    Nigeria is made up of 36 states, of which 18 have passed the Child Rights Act; however, only one majority-Muslim Nigerian state has passed the law, and that with a change that set “puberty,” rather than the age of eighteen, as the minimum requirement for lawful marriage. The result? As many as 800,000 Nigerian women are afflicted with fistula, a disease resulting from early intercourse and pregnancy.[12]

    Palestinian Authority area

    According the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 682 girls aged 14 and younger were legally married in 2000. Two of them were married to men who were 35 or older, 13 to men 30 to 34, 117 to men 25 to 29, 378 to men 20 to 24 and 172 to men 15 to 19. Child marriages of girls 14 and younger made up 2.9 per cent of the total number of registered marriages. In the same year, 13,163 Palestinian girls between 15 and 19 were legally married, surpassing 55 per cent of all registered marriages.

    Local human rights organizations are deeply concerned about child marriage in Palestinian society. Participants of a conference in Gaza dedicated to this issue in January 2008, organized by the Palestinian Medical Relief Society (PMRS), warned of the “significant rise in child marriage rate” and its severe psychological and physical implications on the youth.[13][14]

    United Kingdom

    The number of forced marriages has increased more than ten-fold in just four years, government figures have revealed.
    More than 770 suspected cases were reported to the Forced Marriage Unit this year, up from 152 in 2005.

    If the trend continues, by the end of this year more than 1,540 Britons will have been coerced into a marriage they do not want to enter – an increase of more than 913 per cent.

    The practice affects mainly young Asian women, with more than a third of cases involving those aged under 18. One in six victims are under 16.

    Advisors said they are dealing with hundreds of schoolchildren who have confided to teachers that they fear they will be taken abroad in the summer holidays and forced to marry.[15]

    Yemen

    Yemeni parliament had actually approved a law last year that set a minimum marriageable age of 17 for boys and 18 for girls. (Significantly, the family of Elham Mahdi al Assi lied that she was 18 years old). According to the UN statistics, more than half of Yemeni girls got married before reaching puberty. That means more than half of all marriages in Yemen are child marriages. In line with the UN statistics, the Gender Development Research and Studies Centre at Sana’a University carried out a study on early marriage in 2008 and found that 52.1 per cent of girls are under 18 when they wed, compared with 6.7 per cent of boys.

    But following the approving of the law by Parliament, thousands of conservative Yemeni women actually demonstrated outside parliament last month to protest the implementation of a minimum marriageable age [They were holding up copies of the Qur'an while stating that the proposed law is un-Islamic].[16] Because of the opposition to the proposed law, it did not come into force. Had that law been approved, parents of children involved in child (underaged) marriage could be fined $500 or jailed for a year.[17]

    Yemen is full of child brides. Roughly half of Yemeni girls are married before 18, some as young as eight.[18]

    [edit] Justification by Muslims
    [edit] Permitted in the Qur’an
    Main Article: Pedophilia in the Quran
    Muslims justify pedophilic marriages with tender aged girls using verses from the Qur’an, that clearly advocates this abominable practice. The Qur’an cannot be questioned by Muslims since it’s not simply considered to be ‘inspired’ but the very words of Allah, uttered by his final messenger Muhammad. In Islam, moral relativism cannot be applied, as the Qur’an is Allah’s eternal message to mankind and is as relevant today as it were when the revelations first escaped Muhammad lips.

    And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

    Qur’an 65:4
    The term “courses” mentioned above (indicated in bold italic text) is most accurately translated as “menstruation”, which is the exact meaning of the Arabic word used in that context (i.e. ‘Yaĥiđna يَحِضْنَ).

    [edit] Permitted by Muslim Scholars and Leaders
    Main Article: Qur’an, Hadith and Scholars:Pedophilia
    It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger. A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she’s too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her.

    We hear a lot in the media about the marriage of underage girls. We should know that Shariah law has not brought injustice to women.[19]

    Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh
    Our mothers and before them our grandmothers married when they were barely 12. Good upbringing makes a girl ready to perform all marital duties at that age.[20]

    Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh
    A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over.[21]

    Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui
    Getting married at an early age is something that is confirmed by the book of Allah, the Sunnah of his Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), the consensus of the scholars and the actions of the companions, and the Muslims who came after them…
    There are many Ahadith which confirm that marriage at an early age was widespread among the companions and no one denied its permissibility. Getting married at an early age was not peculiar to the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) as some people think, but it was general for him and for his Ummah.

    The following are some of the actions of the Sahaba (companions):

    1. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter, Um Kulthum to Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and she mothered a child before the death of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam). Omar got married to her while she was young before reaching the age of puberty. This is reported by Ibn Saad in ‘Al-Tabaqat’.

    2. From Urwa Ibn Zubair: that Zubair, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter when she was very young. Reported by Saeed Ibn Mansour, in his Sunnah, and Ibn Abi Shaibah, in Al-musannaf, with a Sahih chain of narration.

    Al-Shafie said in the book of Al-Um: “Many companions of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) married their daughters while these were still young.”

    Delaying the marriage of girls in many Muslim countries is something new and contradictory to what Muslims used to do over many centuries. This is because of westernization and the application of man-made laws. This caused a change in understandings and customs within a considerable number of the population, and it is absolutely not permissible to consider the customs and traditions in a given country as the standard by which people abide, and fail to obey the absolute evidences of Shariah.

    In some Muslim countries, the marriage for girls has been delayed by many years beyond the age of puberty. This has indeed led to an increase in the removal of the veil from the face, and increased fornication and adultery, as well as the emergence of deviation in conduct and religion among the youth. They had become morally unstable as they lack affection, chastity, and protection their private parts from illegal sexual relations.

    By delaying marriage, there is also a reduction in the number of Muslims in the Ummah, and this is contrary to the order of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), as he ordered us to have many children so that the Muslim nation will be greater in number than the previous nations.

    Child marriage in Islam
    Islamweb, Fatwa No. 88089, June 24, 2004
    A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl’s sister.[22]

    The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution
    The Saudi religious establishment is generally supportive of child bride marriages. Some clerics who addressed this issue cited the example of the Prophet’s marriage to ‘Aisha. For example, Jeddah marriage and divorce official Ahmad Al-Ma’abi said on a June 2008 program on Lebanon’s LBC TV that a girl may marry and have sexual intercourse from the age of nine, arguing that the Prophet Muhammad had married ‘Aisha when she was six and had consummated the marriage when she was nine. Al-Ma’abi added that, in Yemen, girls often married at the age of nine or 10. He concluded that as long as the father of the bride consents to the marriage and is present at the ceremony, as required by religious law, “the marriage is obviously legal.”[23][24]

    You can have a marriage contract even with a 1-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of 9, 7 or 8. But is the girl ready for sex or not? What is the appropriate age for sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and tradition.[25][26]

    Dr. Ahmad al-Mu’bi, Saudi marriage officiant
    The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed’s sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine.[27]

    Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraoui
    According to the Shari’ah, if a girl is a minor (did not attain puberty), she may be given in marriage by her father. When she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage. There is no age limit to be intimate with one’s wife even if she is a minor.

    I would like to marry a woman who is 12 years old, her father and she has also agreed. What is your advise?
    Islamic Q & A Online with Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Ask-Imam, Question No. 6737
    Child marriage in Islam is permissible. In the Koran there is no specific age of marriage…[If the government imposed new laws against child marriage] There will be violent conflict from the Muslims, saying that ‘no, we will not accept this, we’d rather die than accept something which is not a law from Allah.’[12][28]

    Imam Sani, a Nigerian cleric
    …it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence.

    Ruling on marrying young women
    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 1493
    m3.13 Guardians are of two types, those who may compel their female charges to marry someone, and those who may not.

    1.The only guardians who may compel their charge to marry are a virgin bride’s father or father’s father, compel meaning to marry her to a suitable match (def: m4) without her consent.
    2.Those who may not compel her are not entitled to marry her to someone unless she accepts and gives her permission.

    Whenever the bride is a virgin, the father or father’s father may marry her to someone without her permission, though it is recommended to ask her permission if she has reached puberty. A virgin’s silence is considered as permission.[29]

    Reliance of the Traveller: The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
    Everything that is not forbidden is permitted. [The new law in Yemen that set the minimum marriage age at 17] is a Western plot aimed at Westernizing our culture. The West wants to teach us how to marry, conceive and divorce. This is cultural colonization that we reject.[30]

    Sheik Mohammed al-Hazmi, a legislator in Yemen, 2009
    …If she is married without her permission, by threat or coercion, then the marriage is not valid. The only exeption is in the case of the father and his daughter who is less than nine years of age. There is no harm if he gets her married while she is less than nine years old, according to the correct opinion. This is based on the messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) marrying Aisha without her consent when she was less than nine years old, as is stated in authentic Hadith…[31]

    Shaikh ibn Baz’s answer on the Q & A site of the Muslim Students Organization of the University of Houston
    Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not.[32]

    Adil Salahi
    Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.[33]

    Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen
    …which puts her at the mercy of a man who could very well be a pedophile.

    [edit] Committed by Muhammad
    Main Article: Aisha’s Age of Consummation
    Another justification is that Muhammad, who is considered the Uswa Hasana (perfect example) by all Muslims, at the age of 54, also indulged in a pedophilic marriage with Aisha, a 9 year old girl.

    A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

    Sahih Muslim 8:3311
    [edit] Committed by Muhammad’s companions
    Main Article: Muhammad’s companions and Pedophilia
    Umar ibn al-Khattab, the 3rd caliph of Islam, at the age of 55 married Umm Kulthum bint Ali when she was between 10 and 12 years old. Some sources even say that she was five years old when Umar married her.

    “‘Umar asked ‘Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. ‘Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). ‘Umar replied, ‘By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me’. Thus ‘Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to ‘Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. ‘Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, ‘You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you’. With that ‘Ali married Umm Kulthum to ‘Umar.”

    In Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 (‘Dhikr Umm Kalthum’) and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 168
    [edit] Recent Cases Around the World
    [edit] Australia
    In September 2010, a 14-year-old girl from Melbourne was saved from an arranged marriage to an adult stranger by a court’s ban on her travelling overseas until she turns 18. Her Muslim family (originally from Macedonia) was also forced to surrender the child’s passport and cannot apply for a new one.[34]

    [edit] Bangladesh
    On September 4 2009, in Barisal, Bangladesh, 75-year old moneylender Lokman Sikder was given 13-year old Akhinur in marriage, by her father, as payment for his unpaid loan of Tk 4,000. Lokman Sikder was previously known to the child as ‘Lokman Nana’ (grandfather).[35]

    [edit] Indonesia
    In Indonesia, a 43-year-old Muslim cleric married a 12-year-old girl in front of thousands of people in the Central Java Province in August of 2008. Not long after the marriage ceremony, police returned the girl to her parents’ care. The cleric also announced his intention to marry two other girls aged 7 and 9. In March 2009, he and the girl’s father were arrested. The cleric argued that he had committed no crime because he intended to wait until she reached puberty before consummating their relationship.[36]

    [edit] Iran
    In Iran a 13 year old girl is old enough to legally marry and considered as an adult at age 8 years and 9 months, old enough to be sentenced to stoning, flogging and hanging for adultery and fornication. Iranian gender biased law favors men where pedophiles are likely to prevail over the girls and women they victimized facing the risk of being convicted should they go to courts.[37]

    The Chicago School of Professional Psychology, Los Angelos, California, August 2009
    [edit] Malaysia
    In August, 2010, the Malaysian State of southern Malacca legalised child marriages specifically between Muslim men and Muslim girls below the age of 16. In a country where Muslims now amount to 60% of the total population, they enforce “Sharia law which operates in parallel with the civil legal system.” Ivy Josiah, the executive director of the Women’s Aid Organisation, says “It is really a regressive move. It is turning back the clock.” [38] News like this leaves one wondering what will happen to child abuse laws in Western countries once Muslims form a sizeable portion of the population. In February 2010, two girls aged 10 and 11 were wed to middle-aged men in the state of Kelantan. The 11-year-old was found outside a mosque and was taken to hospital for treatment. Sharia court officials have said that her marriage was not officially approved.[39]

    [edit] Pakistan
    In some cases, daughters are sold to other tribesmen by their own fathers as an alternative way of settling debt, which is usually accumulated as a result of gambling. The benefactor as a result marries his young bounty so that she may not have any excuse for returning to her native home (in the same concept as how ordinary people spend money that they acquire) [40].

    There have also been cases, especially in Pakistan where daughters (sometimes as young as 3)[41] have been sold to others for personal gain, usually to raise money for gambling, drinking, smoking and consuming drugs. Prices for child brides usually range from PKRs 80,000 to PKRs 200,000 (~US$ 1,340 to ~US$ 3,350). In March 2004 in Sindh province, Pakistan, a man was charged for selling his 7 year old daughter to a 35 year old man for marriage. In another rather peculiar case, a 13-year old girl, bought for PKRs 53,000 (~US$ 888) was later rejected by her buyer on the ground that the girl was not “healthy” enough, and he demanded a “healthier” girl from the seller[42].

    Another form of pedophilic marriage is linked to a tribal custom called Vani, which is a common practice in the Punjab province of Pakistan and the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. This custom is tied to blood feuds among the differing tribes and clans where the young girls are forcibly married-off in order to resolve the feuds. The Vani could be avoided if the clan of the girl agrees to pay money in lieu, called Deet. Otherwise the young bride will have to pay for the crime of her male relatives by spending the rest of her life with a rival tribesman.[43] In early January of 2010, ten people including a Muslim cleric and the father of the girls, were arrested for participating in “a jirga that declared two girls vani” in Pakistan. The girls (ages 9 and 3) were being used to resolve a marriage dispute.[44]

    Another rather similar concept is called Badal, or revenge. This custom is strong in Pashtun society native to northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and leads to a need for disputes to be settled quickly to avoid further bloodshed. Girls are treated as second-class citizens when they are sent to be a bride in a new family to mend ties.[42]

    Finally, we have forced conversions of minors via marriage. This is when children from minority communities, such as the Hindus’ and Christians, are kidnapped, forcibly converted to Islam, and married off to one of the kidnappers. These types of marriages have seen a sharp rise in recent years, due to the general indifference among the police forces towards the plight of the non-Muslim, and laws which prevent the return of ‘Muslim’ children to their non-Muslim parents. As was the case for the Christian mother Sajida Masih,[45] who’s 12 year-old daughter Huma was abducted at gunpoint by Muhammad Imran on the 23rd of February, 2009. When the terrified mother reported the crime to Sadar police station in Gujranwala, the police ridiculed her, and told her there was nothing they could do as she is now a Muslim.

    [edit] Saudi Arabia
    As recent as May 2009, A Saudi sheikh performed a wedding ceremony between a 10-year-old girl and a 26-year-old man. The reason for this? The girl’s father said that he married off his daughter, as he feared she would remain a spinster.[46]In 2008 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, another marriage between an 8 year old girl and a 58-year old-man was validated by a local court (other sources place his age at 47), and a plea by the girl’s mother to nullify the marriage was rejected. The girl was apparently sold into the marriage by her father for SR 30,000 (~US$ 7,994) to ease the financial difficulty he was facing.[47] A second attempt to have the marriage annulled was struck down by the same judge who denied the girl’s mother as a witness in court because she was separated from her husband and therefore not the girl’s legal guardian (under Shari’a). The judge ruled that the girl could seek a divorce when she reached puberty, and he required that the husband sign an agreement not to consummate the marriage until the girl reached puberty.[48] In August 2009, a Saudi father returned his 10-year-old daughter to her elderly husband who was reportedly 80 years old. The girl had been hiding with her aunt for over a week until she was discovered by her father. Originally the girl’s older sister was betrothed to the man, but when the elder girl chose instead to further her education, their father gave the 10-year-old to him as a replacement bride. The husband insisted that “My marriage is not against Shariah. It included the elements of acceptance and response by the father of the bride.”[49] In February 2010, a 12-year-old girl, fighting to divorce an 80-year-old man who paid her father $22,000 for permission to marry her, suddenly dropped her divorce request. She failed to appear in court on the day the judge was supposed to issue his decision. No news was further reported as to why she dropped the case.[50]

    [edit] United Kingdom
    According to 2009 government figures in the UK, forced marriages have seen a ten-fold rise in just four years. One-third of these cases involve victims aged under 18, and one-sixth under the age of 16.[3] While it is reported to be a problem mainly concentrated within the “Asian” communities, this is usually a politically-correct term given to any sensitive issues concerning the Muslim population. This has been previously witnessed with the media handling of the 2001 “race riots” in Oldham, Bradford and Burnley. The government, and the then home secretary David Blunkett, were secretly warned by the head of the Commission for Racial Equality, Gurbux Singh, that more violence was to be expected from “Young Muslims who feel disenfranchised” living among the many “Muslim” hotspots in the UK.[51]

    [edit] United States
    On the 4th of August 2009, 23 year-old Vincent Mosby paid a dowry (consisting of a watch and a ring purchased from Wal-Mart) and married a 14-year-old child in a religious ceremony held in her parents home, and attended by two other members of the Kansas City mosque the child bride’s step-father belongs to. The parents say they pressured their daughter into the marriage, due to fears of her becoming sexually active with a boy her own age. Mosby was charged with statutory rape in November 2009.[52]

    [edit] Yemen
    In September 2009, a 12-year-old Yemeni girl who was forced into marriage died during a painful childbirth which also killed her baby.[53] In 2008, 10-year-old Nujood Ali went to a courthouse by herself, after attempts to get help from relatives failed, and demanded a divorce, generating a landmark legal case. The judge granted the girl a permanent divorce from her 30-year-old husband who had raped and beaten Nujood on their wedding night. Her lawyer said that they were “lucky with this judge. Another judge might not have accepted her in court, and would have asked her father or brother to come instead.” Had that happened, Nujood would probably still be married. However, based on the principles of Shariah law, her husband was compensated, not prosecuted. Nujood was ordered to pay him more than $200 — a huge amount in a country where the United Nations Development Programme says 15.7 percent of the population lives on less than $1 a day. She also feels like an outcast among her relatives and friends.[54] Just weeks after Nujood’s case, 9-year-old Arwa Abdu Muhammad Ali ran away from her 35-year-old husband to a local hospital and reported that she had been beaten and sexually abused for eight months. The judge who heard her case briefly jailed the local judge who had approved the marriage contract. Arwa’s husband refused to show up to court.[55] Also in 2008, Reem, a Yemeni girl married at 12, sought a divorce from her 30-year-old husband after he choked her, bit her, dragged her by the hair, and raped her when she resisted his demands for sex. He imprisoned her in his house for 11 days during which time she tried to kill herself with a kitchen knife before being rescued by her mother.[56] Her father had forced her into the marriage with her cousin, resorting to a gag and tying her up twice. He also threatened to kill the girl for defying him.[57]

    [edit] Conclusion
    In countries like Yemen, Iran, and Northern Nigeria, attempts at reforming laws and banning child marriages have been opposed and stopped on the grounds that such a ban would be un-Islamic,[12][17][16] and in the case of Malaysia, the growing Muslim population has effectively turned back the clock on social progress by passing new laws which allow for the practice of pedophilic marriages specifically between followers of Islam.[38] So one has to agree that whatever reasons and justification people may give for the prevalence of child marriages in the East, without Islam this hideous practice would have long been discarded as immoral and unacceptable in the modern world.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    rajeev,

    triputi is biggest brothel of the world.these few individual cases are nothing as compare to plight of women in india.
    there is no middle class women in tamilnadu who has not killed at least 2 of his daughters.rape and gang rape is daily news in zee tv.people are selling their girls out of poverty not out of religion.

    [Reply]

    jangal santhal Reply:

    Subramanian Swamy predicts death to Hindus

    Bangalore: There is an interesting news. The Hindu terrorist party RSS controlling the Brahmana Jati Party (BJP) is likely to welcome the famous Vajpayee-baiter Subramanian Swamy, the Tamil Iyer having close connection with zionist Israel.

    This poor fellow has been leading his one-man Janata Party for long. Still he gets good publicity in the “Brahmin toilet papers” because of his jati that keeps him in the limelight. Nobody else knows the power of publicity which can make and unmake a person. That is why the most cantankerous vaidiks have monopolised the media to safeguard their jati interest.

    Role of Kanchi Swamy: The person who is now pushing Swamy, so far kept out by Vajpayee, into BJP is none other than the notorious Kanchi Swamy who was put in the jail for his many sex scandals and murders. But being a Brahmin, the Kanchi Swamy escaped all punishments (DV Jan.1, 2005 p.20: “DV’s 12-point chargesheet against Kanchi Swami”).

    The Kanchi is grateful to Swamy (both Iyers) because he was the one person who went out of the way to defend the culprit whose very name stinks in Tamil Nadu.

    Vajpayee love for good things: As the sun is setting over A.B. Vajpayee, the RSS thought this was the right time to allow Swamy to enter BJP. But Vajpayee has not forgiven his many shocking, public statements revealing Vajpayee’s taste for good things of life.

    Bigwigs of the RSS including its chief Sudarshan were present in Delhi recently where Swamy’s book was released. But the one prediction made by Swamy in his book is very ominous to Hinduism which is the other word for Brahminism.

    Suicide: He says the Hindus run the risk of “perishing like the ancient Greeks, Egyptians or Babylonians”.

    Swamy knows who are the Hindus. The SC/ST/BCs (65%) are not Hindu. We congratulate Swamy for speaking this stark truth.

    It is a fact the thinking sections of Brahmins are deeply worried over the imminent suicide of their tribe. The Jews are facing the same situation in Palestine.

    The visible mental disorder in this minuscule 3% of Indians is the sole cause of their current abnormal behaviour — biting anybody and every passerby like a mad dog.

    Why the Brahmins, the very rulers of India, are so desperate? Why do they feel threatened? Who is threatening the very Bhoodevatas?

    Why the dog is biting Muslims, Dalits, Tribals, OBCs, women, Sikh, Christians and even their own women? It is because it is mad.

    What do you do with the mad dog?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Though this post is not related to Isamic Terrorism, but a number of Bloger here have introduce subejects such as Child Marriege with a view to cast aspertions on Islam, whilst completely ignoring some Home Truths. This is to balance that.

    There is a tendency among the HINDU FUNDO’s on this blog to point out that Mohmad married a 9 yr old gilr – a friend’s daughter. Some even quote the appropriate verse from the Quran in order to support their assertion.

    The motive behind such cheap form of discussion is to denegrate islam and by implication suggest that Hinduism is great.

    However, the reality is not quite as cut and dry. Child marriage and other forms of child exploitation was not just rampant in medieval India it is practiced even now.

    The sad fact is that children in India are regularly subjected to uninvited sexual attention often by their own relatives.

    As recently as 2007 a study was conducted in India – Study on Child Abuse: INDIA 2007, by Ministry of Women and Child Development Government of India. Its authors are: Dr. Loveleen Kacker, IAS, Srinivas Varadan, Pravesh Kumar Supported by: Dr. Nadeem Mohsin, Anu Dixit

    It can be found here. http://wcd.nic.in/childabuse.pdf

    I suggest that you read this.

    However, if the report is too large for you to read and you can not let the urge to abuse me go.

    Then here is some of the findings.

    Sexual Abuse

    1. 53.22% children reported having faced one or more forms of sexual abuse.

    2. Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Bihar and Delhi reported the highest percentage of sexual abuse among both boys and girls.

    3. 21.90% child respondents reported facing severe forms of sexual abuse and 50.76% other forms of sexual abuse.

    4. Out of the child respondents, 5.69% reported being sexually assaulted.

    5. Children in Assam, Andhra Pradesh, Bihar and Delhi reported the highest incidence of sexual assault.

    6. Children on street, children at work and children in institutional care reported the highest incidence of sexual assault.

    7. 50% abusers are persons known to the child or in a position of trust and responsibility.

    8. Most children did not report the matter to anyone.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain
  • Binoy Hegde

    Can we limit the discussions to “islamic terrorism — what now”.. I am sure we can cover other subjects appropriately based on the theme of the future blogs

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr hegde there is nothing like islamic terrorism.it is response of brutal occupation by greedy zoinists,who are looting the weak countries.
    in front of sauddi embassy thousands of hindus can be found daily.as daudis provide them with better salary and protection.nobody wants to come back back indonesia,malaysia middle east
    or turkey.
    there is fight against occupier.this is called freedom struggle not terrorism.
    western robbers are fighting with their agents in muslim world.like pakistan.
    afghanistan has not threw pebble towards america.why they attacked
    iraq had no alqaida cell why it was attacked.if u will destroy infrastructure of a country ,finished their institutions,put break on development,drown the into anarchy.there will be reaction.u will call it terrorism.90%of alqaeda attacks are directed against millitary targets.nopt against civilians.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Shan

    Couple of blogs ago, you asked me the ailments of Islam and what to do to make it go the right way.

    One of the things I mentioned was the role of literature and arts and the role its presence/absence does to growth, change, and adaptation and the creation of vibrant societies.

    Please read Nadeem Parrecha’s column in today’s Dawn. “Smokers corner: I come in peace”. He talks about the same thing, how the void in literature, music etcc is further eroding what is left of Pakitan.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @L Mirza, Many Thanks , i went to dawn website, the only one from Nadim parischa I could locate was on Zardari. I must say he was too harsh, as if in India these kind of species is alien. just try SUKHRAM and now A Raja. Also this building collapse in Delhi , This is perhaps what happens when you have plonker like ashish putting MARGINS ABOVE ALL CONSIDERATIONS. Please come back with the link for that specific article. Though what you write is truth written in stone. These thing have been Europe some 600 yrs ago starting with Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales , showing who corrupt the bishops are and then later Voltaire with his CANDIDE, showing how debauch the priest are , culminating with Jerry Springer show showing Jesus in undies.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    mr shan/ravi.YADAVAS IMPRISONED BY God KRISHNA
    The problem with the OBCs is they are more Brahminical than the best of the Brahmin. Yet they are kicked by the Brahmin. And the angry OBC retaliate by kicking the Dalits.

    The Hindu god Krishna, an OBC cowherd, played the mischief in the Hindi heartland.

    OBCS must join Dalits

    This god was manufactured by the Brahmins to fool and win over the vast and powerful Yadav community on the stinking cowbelt and woo them back from Budhism. This **** and bull story of Mahabharat, in which Krishna (meaning Black) did the trick of permanently annexing the Yadavs into Brahminical fold, helped Brahmins to kill Budhism.

    But even the thinking Yadavas to this day have not seen through the Brahminical game.

    That is why the OBCs, who should have gone with Dalits, went with Brahmins who took them to hell.

    [Reply]

  • jangal santhal

    How long can we go on ranting about Brahmins. From last 4,000 years to the present day the equation remained same —that is Kshatriya-Brahmin-Bania nexus. Now it is state-temple-corporate complex. This was made official later in Bhagvad Geetha Chapter 18-44 which says “shudras are born to carry out their duty of serving upper castes.” Go to website nirmukta.com and take prints of articles written by one Dr.Prabhakar Kamath. He has demolished Brahminism in a thorough- clinical manner, especially in the articles of March & April. Unless Dalit leaders and intellectuals think of drastic radical steps the problem remains. For example there should be mass conversion to Christianity /islam and making English language compulsory.

    You are right. The problem is how to make the Truth you stated known to the slaves of India. We have no mass media of our ownour media is peanut before the Brahminical monster media. How to solve this problem without which the oppressed millions will die without ever getting a chance to know the Truth. “Know the Truth and Truth shall make you free” (Bible)

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    And this contributes to worldwide Islamic terrorism?

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    Binoy-

    The Washington Post article you linked tells about the death nd destruction when a country/army (Pakistan) lenient to Muslim extremists organizes an attack on a kauffer country using these motivated jehadis. This nexus between muslim terrorists and terrorism orientted government apparatus is 100 timesmore lethal than few ragtag jehadists.

    India should take all steps to prevent another terrorist attack from Pakistan (because these terrorists will be well equippd and backed by government apparatus), and make sure the internal rescue/security operations are well coordinated and supplied unlike 11/26.

    Islamic terrorism backed by state support is deadly.

    Contrary to the assertion of many in this blog, I am of the opinion that Islamic terrorism is on the rise and not on the wane; It is more spread out now with local franchises, individual jehadists are doing retail operation as well as guided operation (like the underwear bomber last Christmas).

    Of course, with their relentless pursuit of nukes, it is only a question of time when they will get their hands on dirty bombs.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ Shoeb K, 100% agree.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    Some good observations but I am not sure that life is as simple as that.

    Long before AQ and or LeT were even born. Libya was widely regarded as a Terrorist State; it used two of its secret service agents to place suitcase bombs on a plane. The rest we know as the Lockerbie Disaster.

    I hope you would agree with the following.

    1. Lockerbie Bomb was a clear terrorist attack.

    2. Libya is an Islamic country and the two agents involved were Muslims.

    Here is an example where both a State and Muslim individuals were involved, yet I am not sure it would be classified as an Islamic Terrorist attack. The reason is that their motives were not Islamic, they were as simple and basic as revenge.

    So that leads me to ask you what do you class as an Islamic Terrorism:

    Is it terrorism perpetrated by Muslim individuals, with a view to furthering some theosophical elements of Islam? In other words the REAL motivation is Islamic.

    Or

    Is it Pakistan waging a low intensity gorilla war against India, for which it is capable of creating and using Islamic zealots, which it has brain washed?

    In my opinion the attack on Mumbai was a gorilla attack by LeT – which seems to have freed itself from its ISI shackles – stage managed by ISI and therefore not an example of Islamic Terrorism but an attack on India by Pakistan, like many other such attacks.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    I will not consider Lockerbee as Islamic terrorist act; although I would still classify it as a terrorist act. Libya should have acted as a man and attacked the target country military, or the target country leader/his family; not innocents from many countries flying in a plane to meeet family or to do business. Nobody denies Col Gadaffis child ’s eath in the US bombing.

    To me Islamic terrorism is religion motivated or using religious motivated crazies. To me 11/26 is Islamic Terrorism, not only because the particiapnts and directors were religious motivated, but also because staging of that definitely helped them to recruit more jehadis.

    By the time we argue about the fine prints, these jehdis will obtain dirty bombs and stop us from arguing. I really see that happening; because countries (especially US) will get tired, and these nihilists will have a full play ground and their own time to finish their game.

    Saudi Arabia (may not be the current king; he seems to be in the right track; but a large number of the freeloader princes) is the root cause – financier as wella s instigator as well as spiritual puritanism – and as long a s the world is dependent on oil, countries like US will only play in the periphery.

    Saudi Arabia has poisoned Pakistani minds, so much so that elite (?) Pakistanis now believe they are Arabs and not “Indians” (from a heritage/history perspective. They have captured a good percentage of Indian Muslim mindshare too. I see it vividly on Fridays.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I will not dispute anything you have said, here.

    shan Reply:

    @shoebK , what you have written is exactly what Eugene Rogan informs us in his book The Arabs. King Faisal told Bin Wahab , bring your flock to support me as the leader of all arabs and I will see that your brand of islam is made the officially sanctioned islam.
    Also from a documentary in channel4 in UK on 26/11 , where they played the conversation between the handler and the fidayeen in Nariman house it was crystal clear religion was the motivating force. When this fidayeen realises his countdown has begun , he is surrounded , he asks his handler to pray for him , and the handler says dont worry you will be GOING TO ZANNAT SOON. No mention ofparents , brothers sisters , their well being , who us going to look agter elderly fathers etc.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shoeb

    Several things have come out in the last few weeks here pointing to the Saudi/Pakistani/terrorists working together:

    1) It was revealed that huge money was comig from Saudi Arabia to PFI leaders (the group connected with Taliban courts in kerala and teh chopper of the professor’s hnd). Two PFI leaders are in custody regarding this
    2) The chief intelligence guy for South India, Behra, in connection with the interview regarding four Kerala Msulim boys dying in a military encounter in Kashmir, mentioned about teh active involvement of a Pakistani operative in recruiting Muslims from kerala for Jehadi operations
    3) Several details came out during the verdit on Chekannur Maulavi murder case few weeks ago – Chekannur Maulavi was a progressive cleric, who disappeared (presumedly killed by the fundamentalist group; no body found so far; his wife identified the people who came to her house to pick the Maulavi for a “speech”) – that the group that kidnapped and “murdered” him had financil support from Saudi Arabian muslims.

  • Ashish

    @Ravi,
    I saw your detailed listing of instances, countries and cultures- including in India where sex with pre-pubescent girls is practiced. You also list various other reprehensible practices like sati (still happening???), women marrying trees (really, even now??) etc..
    Can I understand the point you are making?
    Are you saying that Hindu Fundoos (okay, buddy, count me in!- Garv se kao, hum internet Hindu Fundoo hain :P )- support these practices? Can you show me even one line in support by your favourite RSS or Bajrang Dal or even Ram Sene in support if these practices? Do any of the fellows posting here support child marriage, temple prostitution…?? Really?
    Are you aware these activities have been made illegal eons back?
    Will you not accept that social reform takes generations- law making is merely the first step, an important and crucial one, but still just the first step?

    When you try to juxtapose violence in Hindu scripture with Muslim scripture, it is purely to score debating points. Please understand that Manusmriti lives only in the internet, in these fora. No Hindu reads it- unless of course he is in JNU :-D
    Please do not throw Bal Thakeray and his cohorts at our face- we are as embarrassed of that ******* as anyone is.
    In the last one month since you have come into this forum, show me one person on this forum who has tried to justify Col Purohit or Sadhvi Pragya.. I can show you plenty, Hindus, Muslims- who find justification for Muslim terror.
    As India tries to put its past behind it, and transcend to a post-caste, post-religion society, driven by rapid urbanization and meritocracy- this collective breast-beating and guilt mongering threatens our progress.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ashish

    The only ones who read manusmrithi is we Muslims and our secular friends!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shoeb K,
    :D

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish.

    What your self image is a personal matter for you. I will only call you a Hindu Fundo, in retaliation to any abuse you may have thrown at me. As far as my memory goes, you have not abused me and therefore in return I do not abuse you. Which is not true of some other people.

    Now that out of the way, I will deal with the points you raise.

    As I have said in a separate Post, people like Rajeev and Shan have in this very blog, stated that Paedophilia is practiced and condoned by Islam. Even stating that Mohamed married a 9 yr old girl. To counter that – which was my point – I posted that list basically saying that our own society, religious practices, etc are not all that far from what we accuse Islam of. I hope I make my point clear.

    No I am not suggesting that Hindu Fundo’s (including RSS/Bjarang Dal/Ram Sena) condone these practices. That was not my point and I have never stated that it is. My point was, why just identity such abhorant practices in Islam when such practices are common place elsewhere too, including in Hinduism.

    None of the fellows posting here support Child Marriage or Temple Prostitution, but Rajeev and Shan regularly state that Mohmad married a 9 yr old and that Muslim sexual tourists come to India for child sex. I counter that by stating that our own home is not without such issues and that In Andhra Devdasi’s are prepubescent when they are married out to a deity, etc.

    I agree that Laws have been passed outlawing such practices; the point is that they still go on and yes it takes time for them to disappear. That being the case then why attack Islam on issues where our own record is also just as unsavoury.

    Manusmrity may no longer be read but it still underpins our whole society. While we are talking about reading, I have a very wider circle of friends almost all Hindu’s none of them have read Ramayana and/or Mahabharata. They all read Gita, even that rarely.

    Just as you are embarrassed by Bal Thakaray, so are many muslims who are embarrassed by AQ, LeT and this whole Islamic Violence. Thank god that they do.

    There have been many in this forum who have denied RSS being Violent and have concluded that Godhra Train was a Muslim atrocity. Two reports say otherwise, and Gujarat Govt complicity in the Ahemdabad Riots is now a matter for record.

    I am all for India progressing, hopefully faster than it is, and become a post caste, etc society, but why does that give some people the right to mindlessly indulge in Islam bashing.

    I hope I have answered all your questions.

    I am happy for you to not agree with me, nay bother as they say in Scotland.

    Just do not abuse me or try and score cheap points by bashing any body else’s religion. I am not suggesting that you do, beacuse I know you do not.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ravi,
    Hindu Fundoo is one of the nicer things I have been called on this blog- notably by the author of the blog himself; been here far longer than you. Just so that you know the context in which the remark was made.
    Why mention abhorrent practices in Islam, when similar practices are found in all cutures and religions even in modern times? Good question; let me answer that.
    Among the major religions of the modern times, let us examine where they stand:
    1. Christianity- the church is rapidly losing its relevance in the lives of Europeans and many Americans as well. As churchgoers diminish in number, the church income decreases. Unless it can find a major market and soon, it will be on its last leg in another 100 years.
    Also, let any responsible church leader lead a prayer using the violent verses from the Deuteronomy- man, all hell will break loose.
    2. Hinduism- practiced almost only in India; unable to find new recruits-except through procreation- for the simple reason that it does not find a way to admit to its fold other religion followers (“what caste will you slot him in?”). Rapid urabanization, pressures of modern living and a growing economy will take the edges of this religion- casteism, misogyny etc.
    Because it is a very loose definition of a religion with no single spiritual authority, a Hindu grows up with a fairly relaxed attitude towards religion. I hope that does not change.
    As we have agreed, no mainstream (even some of the rabid communalist outfits like the Bajrang Dal or Ram Sene) gets any mileage from pushing Manusmriti or .. I don’t know, are there others?? I am frankly zero on religion :D
    3. Islam: Rivals Christianity in its spread and is the most recent of the major religions. The important thing to realise is not whether
    - the religious scriptures prescribe violence and/ or intolerance (you can always find instances from Chritianity or Hinduism as well)
    - The scriptures contain nonsensical and unscientific matters- all religious scriptures do.
    The point is simply the immutability of the Quran. And the “take me in the entirety, as a total package”- not a line can be changed- dictum.
    So, since the Muslims have to be guided in their lives solely by the Quran- do realise that most violence in India where the Muslims are involved have been Shia-Sunni clashes- there is so much emphasis of “correct” interpretation.
    Catholics and Protestants do not have communal riots. Nor do Shaivaites or Vaishnavites.
    Since there are verses in Quran that can be unequivocally interpreted in the literal sense to wage war with people who have a different way of life, a devout Muslim can not be blamed if he “follows his religious calling”. That is not to say that all Muslims follow their religion to the exact letter. I am confident that 99% do NOT. And that is great.
    But, with the increased religiosity in our public life, Muslims are more and more pressured to lead a more “pure” life. What this pure life is, is being interpreted for them by ill-educated Mullahs with no exposure to real life.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    ” Hinduism- practiced almost only in India; unable to find new recruits-except through procreation- for the simple reason that it does not find a way to admit to its fold other religion followers (“what caste will you slot him in?”
    This is Himalayan Blunder. The reason why you cannot have new recruits (read conversion) in Hinduism , is because of those”raw sewage of hell”. They had stipulated YOU CANNOT CONVERT TO HINDUISM YOU CAN BE ONLY BORN INTO IT. These raw sewage didn’t have massive dilemma in assigning the caste. If they found a dalit very sexually attractive lady, and lost all of their control and seeded that poor woman, their saving grace was assigning that child NATH caste of bramhin , the lowest in the pecking order .

    shan Reply:

    Why islam doesn’t change. Some ground reality. This is from todays Independent (UK) page 21.
    veteran human rights activist camaigner Asma Jehangir, who was recently elected head of the country’s powerful Supreme Court bar association, is among those have defended people accused of blashemy, most famously in the case of a 14yrs old boy Salamat Masih, who was accused of writing blasphemous words on the wall of a mosque. After Miss Jehangir successfully defended the teenager on appeal …………..now the punchline……THE JUDGE WHO ACQUITTED HIM WAS MURDERED.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    very nice article

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?220622

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    and this causes worldwide Islamic terrorism? making them bomb buildings, planes, railway stations, cities….???

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Bobby

    Thanks for this. I absolutely loved it.

    As a child when I was growing up in Delhi (or Karachi if you believe Rajeev and Shan). a government sponsored travelling Cinema would come to ur street once in a month.

    It mostly showed films, with a religious theme, these were the B&W days.

    One of the most endearing image this left me in my mind is a dual between Lord Krishna and A. N. Other. The sequence showed this A. N. Other chuking a GDDHA, in skyward direction, cut to a close up and angry Lord Krishna, followed by a two shot showing GADDHA on its way. Cut to a SUDHARSHAN CHAKRA being launched from a finger. Two shot showing the SUDHARSHAN CHAKRA destroying the GADDHA and returning un damaged back to Lord Krishna’s finger.

    I knew then that we were an advanced country and it was proven when a few years later I saw a rocket being launched by USA

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Another prroof..Muslim fundoo in action..Would like your comment on Mohammad flying at the back of Supersonic donkey and his slicing of moon with cheese made sword..

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    From the same article….

    “……Swami Vivekananda declared the Vedas to contain all the truths of modern science in his famed Chicago address in 1893.”

    I dont know whether this is true… but if it is…. the parallel to Islamic nuts claiming “everything being there in the Quran” is noteworthy… but to paraphrase shakespear…

    “….but Swami Vivekanada was an honourable man”… as was his even more honourable master…. who saw Kali mata every now and then….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    “Bobby , that honourable master to give his due wasn’t a bigotted person , he said Joto moth Toto Path, for non bengali reders this is The more there are opinions , the more are the avenues to reach the soultion.Better than there is only one arabic head gear wearing God and there is only one last prophet. as to Vivekananda , he exhorted jehangir Tata while both travelling on ship to engalnd , to establish an institution for studying science. This is the genesis of Indian Institute of Science , Bangalore. And he is the same person who told young children not to sit at home and parrot the scriptures, but to go out and play football ., as that will be good for body and mind.
    Oh yes I forgot to mention in my previous posting , YOGA , meditatation has proven beyond doubt to reduce heart rate , and blood pressure and other YOGA is essentially very good pysiotheraphy.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Oh yes I forgot to mention in my previous posting , YOGA , meditatation has proven beyond doubt to reduce heart rate , and blood pressure and other YOGA is essentially very good pysiotheraphy.”

    meditation is there in all cultures… be it sufi, or christianity or buddhism … and yoga is just some form of excercise…yes excercises may help…so?

    good and healthy living habits do help in many ways… so whats the big deal about yoga?

    Ashish Reply:

    Bobby,
    not true to the best of my knowledge and belief. Here’s a link to his address.
    It is notable for “all religions are true” and asking for an end to fanaticism. It does not refer even once to Vedas.
    The only supremacy he claims for Hinduism (actually he never even says the word Hindu or Hinduism) is in tolerance for other beliefs and thoughts and for sheltering other people prosecuted elsewhere- notably “Israelites persecuted by Roman tyranny”.
    http://www.knowledgebase-script.com/demo/article-169.html

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, nice or not , pretty hackneyed topic. Same old RSS founded by maharahtrian brahmins , after having lost their empire to British,. RSS is not India , India is not RSS. And nothing wrong in giving the hindu past its due where it deserves. The concept of zero , according to aldous Huxley is top ten discoveries of all time, so are the numericals and the DECIMAL system which is far far superior to Roman numericals.As to my branch , the FORE HEAD FLAP described by sasruta is used now year 2010 for Rhinoplasty. As I had pointed out before the conversation between Einstein and Tagore about the chair in the room , and incredibly tagore has been proven right of his assretion , which was a fallback on Hindu philosophy , that the chair does not exist if their is nobody to witness it. When I go home I will give you exact words and page number of the book by Andrew Robinson. Also ancient Hindus knew a fair bit about mettalugy , and according to a BBC documentary , were the first to extract iron by heating the ore with coal.The metallic obelisk that stands in delhi which is more than 1000 yrs old has bramhi script inscribed hasn’t got a trace of rust. Nobody has been able to decipher the composition that alloy, so far I am aware.
    Nice blog . nice people, nice articleswww.indianrationalists.blogspot.com/ -

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “As I had pointed out before the conversation between Einstein and Tagore about the chair in the room , and incredibly tagore has been proven right of his assretion , which was a fallback on Hindu philosophy , that the chair does not exist if their is nobody to witness it”

    if this is about hindu mysticism and its relevance to quantum physics, then let me assure you thats bull shit… the chair in a very real sense EXISTS even if no there is only air in the room…. there is nothing mystical about it, except in the head of hindus desperately trying to get some credit….

    The point of the article is not that great things where not done in ancient india, they were done in many cultures,…the chinese, the greeks, the islamic world in medivial times… etc… the point is to realize that its not an subsitute for modern science… and to say that WE had all teh knowledge is nonsense… what was done in ancient world, is nto even 1% of modern knowledge system… realize that and move on….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , A house does not spring out of the soil. At its fundamental unit is the bricks, those bricks are concept of zero , numericals , algebra, without which quantum physics wouldn’t have been possible.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby as much I think science holds the key to unlocking all the mysteries, I am humble enough to acknowledge that OBSERVATION is a fully valid system , though there may not be an explanation.The grass family plant on which the survival of mankind depends was discovered by the people without any help from theoretical physics , the discovery of penicillin was pure serendipity , though the extraction by Florey was pure science. In fact lots of antibiotics were discovered by simply scavenging for fungus. Even the immuno suppressant Cyclosporin was discovered by scavenging a fungus. In fact there is one author in Oxford Text book Of Medicine who says that rather than approaching the cure of cancer by working step by step with theoretical understanding, should go for the blind approach and try out any compounds , extract or wahtever , and if one of them clicks , then go out and work out the mechanism. You seem to forget what works for theoretical physics, doesn’t work in other branches of science. Take Stephen Hawkins , he may have cracked the origin of universe with super string theory , but WE ARE NO WHERE NEAR TO IN KNOWING WHAT CAUSES HIS AFFLICTION MOTOR NEURONE DISEASE , NOR WE HAVE BEEN TO FIND ANY CURE.
    Post Script, I wonder what the above posting will do that green mind salesman fronm delhi.

  • DUDE

    YO ram outer you pakkki and ravi you arabian dog……….

    go worship your peado god mohaammed!

    vote for DUDE! FOR A ISLAM FREE INDIA AND WORLD!

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Now that Ravi talibani has raised the matter of miracles..You all will be surpised to know that first man to land on moon was Mohammad…
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Splitting_the_Moon_Miracle

    Splitting the Moon Miracle
    From WikiIslam
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Miracles Index

    Miracles
    Georgics
    19: The ‘miracle’ of Islam
    The 365 days Maths Miracle
    Splitting the Moon
    Cat’s Eye Nebula in the Quran
    Pareidolia
    Animals Marked by Allah
    Praying Tree
    Allah in the Sky
    Muhammad in the Clouds
    A Tomato’s Shahadah
    Honeycomb Allah
    Allah’s Favorite Fish
    Allah in an Egg Plant
    Right Hand
    Allah in the Ear
    Baby with Quranic Verses
    Satire:The Miracle of Ankh
    Hoaxes
    10 Meter Tall Human Skeleton
    Trees Saying Shahadah
    Human Bronchus Makes Shahadah
    Shariff Idd
    Fake Conversions
    Allah’s Melons
    Cactuses Spell Out Allah
    Miscellaneous
    Standing Mosques
    Dog responds to the Adhan
    Google Earth proves Islam
    Articles
    A Qur’anic Understanding of the Universe
    Muhammad’s Miracles?
    Witnessing the Moon Splitting Miracle

    Muslims believe that while Muhammad was in Mecca, Allah split the Moon as a miracle to the Meccans. This claim is made in the Qur’an.

    Surah 54 of the Qur’an is called “The Moon.” It begins by saying:

    The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder.
    And if they see a miracle they turn aside and say: Transient magic.

    And they call (it) a lie, and follow their low desires; and every affair has its appointed term.

    Qur’an 54:1-3
    The great Muslim scholar Maududi explains:

    The amazing and wonderful phenomenon of the splitting of the Moon was a manifest sign of the truth that the Resurrection, of which the Holy Prophet was giving them the news, could take place and that it had approached near at hand. The great sphere of the Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined.

    Syed Abu-Ala’ Maududi – The Meaning of the Qur’an: Al-Qamar
    However, there are several problems with this story.

    The main problem is that it contradicts the Qur’an itself. In various places Muhammad admitted he could not or did not have to perform miracles to prove himself. When asked to perform miracles his response was:

    Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger?

    Qur’an 17:93
    In another place Muhammad put the following words into the mouth of Allah:

    And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner.

    Qur’an 13:7
    Muhammad insisted that even though other prophets had miracles, his only miracle is the Qur’an. So when Muslims claim that Muhammad performed miracles, they are going against the Qur’an itself (see: Muhammad’s Miracles?).

    The other problem with this claim is that such a phenomenon should have been observed not just in Mecca but also all over the world. Many cultures have recorded even eclipses, why then are there no mentions of this, which surely would have been the most amazing phenomenon?

    Moiz Amjad, a scholar that answers questions for Understanding-Islam.com says (here), “I have not yet come across any historical accounts of other nations, which refer to the incident.” He thinks this is “a sign of the promised hour.”

    Curiously the same site contradicts itself (here) and claims that in fact a certain king of India observed the splitting of the Moon and he sent his son to Mecca who converted to Islam and upon returning he died in Yemen.

    This story is of course another fabrication of Muslims (see: Witnessing the Moon Splitting Miracle). Muslims are fond of fabricating stories to attribute Miracles to their prophet. They do it all the time. One such ridiculous fabrication was the claim that the astronauts who landed on the Moon heard the adhan (Muslim call to prayer) being chanted there (see: Fake Conversions – Neil Armstrong). There are thousands more.

    First of all there is no record that any King of India ever visited Muhammad. This is not mentioned in any biography of Muhammad.

    Secondly the splitting of the Moon should have been observed by everyone all over the world and not just by one king. Where is the record of such a phenomenon?

    Thirdly, assuming that this Indian king saw the splitting of the Moon, how could he interpret this alleged cosmic phenomenon as the sign that there has appeared a new prophet in Mecca? Muslims claim that Indian scriptures contain predictions about the coming of a messenger from Arabia. This is nonsense. There is no mention of Muhammad in any sacred book of any religion.

    Many Muslims are convinced that this phenomenon has indeed happened. They are shown these close-up pictures of the Moon taken by NASA as the evidence and as gullible as many people are, they believe without any hesitation.

    These are called Lunar Rilles. Rilles are long and deep gorges resembling canyons. A rille is typically several kilometers wide and hundreds of kilometers in length. Similar formations are found on a number of planets in the solar system, including Mars, Venus, and on a number of moons. See below.

    How these rilles are formed is still not known with certainty. Theories include erosion at some point in the stellar body’s history, collapsed lava tubes, and tectonic activity/stresses.

    There are three types of rilles on the lunar surface:

    1. Sinuous rilles meander in a curved path like a river, and are commonly thought to be the remains of collapsed lava tubes or extinct lava flows. They usually begin at an extinct volcano, then meander and sometimes split as they are followed across the surface.
    2. Arcuate rilles have a smooth curve and are found on the edges of the dark lunar maria. They are believed to form when the lava flows that created a mare cools, contracts, and sinks.
    3. Straight rilles follow long, linear paths and are believed to be grabens. That is, a section of the crust that has sunk between two parallel faults. These can be readily identified when they pass through craters or mountain ranges.
    Rilles can be found all over the lunar surface and they do not form a belt and therefore do not in anyway support the claim of Muslims that the Moon had been split asunder. Here are a few pictures that should dismiss this Islamic wishful thinking. To understand how rilles scar the surface of the Moon, we have to take a look at pictures showing the moon from farther up.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    The Adoption is banned in Islam but it was not always so..How mohammad suddenly got DIVINE revelation to ban adoption is amazing..Just read how creative Mohammad was-

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Concerns_with_Islam:_Adoption
    Concerns with Islam: Adoption
    From WikiIslam
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Concerns with Islam:
    Thoughts from an American Convert
    By Americana X
    Introduction
    Ch.1: Apostasy
    Ch 2: Immoral, Unjustified, and Preemptive Warfare and Violence
    Ch.3: Child Marriage
    Ch.4: Women’s Lack of Legal Rights and Equality
    Ch.5: How Women Are Perceived Disrespectfully
    Ch.6: Wife Beating
    Ch.7: Men and Women are Not Equal at All In Islam
    Ch.8: Sexual Slavery in Islam
    Ch.9: Adoption
    Ch.10: Democracy is not Compatible with Islam
    Conclusion

    [edit] Adoption in Islam and the History of Prophet Muhammad’s Marriage to Zainab Bint Jahsh
    Islam prohibits adopting children. Adoption, as it is understood in the West, is not allowed in Muslim Shariah law. While Mohamed did say “I and a patron of an orphanage are as close in Paradise” and “the best house in Muslim houses is the one with an orphan being treated well in it.” (Bukhari and Ibn Majah), Islamic law seems to set up different conditions.

    Here’s a little background.

    [edit] Adoption was a pre-Islamic Arab Custom
    Adoption of an orphan/helpless child was a very popular and moral practice amongst pre-Islamic Arabs. By adopting an orphan, they used to consider the adopted child as their own and pass on the adopter’s genealogy and name, inheritance, and the prohibition of marriage on grounds of consanguinity i.e. a close relation or connection.

    [edit] After Islam
    Mohamed undid the above mentioned Arab practice of adopting children. Islam gives the adopted son no actual rights. Yes, one can and is encouraged to care for an orphan, but it is only as an act of kindness and there can never be any legal relationship. At the time of this ruling, a verse was revealed:

    “God did not make your adopted son as your own sons. To declare them so is your empty claim. God’s word is righteous and constitutes true guidance.”

    Qur’an 33:4
    It follows from this revelation that the adopter may marry the ex-wife of his adopted son and vice-versa. Thus Muhammad married Zainab, his former adopted son’s wife. In this regard God further said:

    “After a term of married life with her husband, We permitted you to marry her so that it may hence be legitimate and morally blameless for a believer to marry the wife of his adopted son provided that wife has already been divorced. That is God’s commandment which must be fulfilled.”

    Qur’an 33:37
    [edit] Muhammad’s Marriage to Zainab Bint Jashsh
    According to Ibn Sa`d and al-Tabari concerning this story:

    Muhammad Ibn Yahya Ibn Hayyan narrated, “The Messenger of God came to Zaid Ibn Haritha’s house seeking him. Perhaps the Messenger of God missed him at that time, that is why he said, ‘Where is Zaid?’ He went to his house seeking him and, when he did not find him, Zainab Bint Jahsh stood up to greet him in a housedress, but the Messenger of God turned away from her. She said, ‘He is not here, Messenger of God, so please come in; my father and mother are your ransom.’ Mohamed refused to go in. Zainab had hurried to dress herself when she heard that Mohamed was at her door, so she leapt in a hurry, and the Messenger of God liked her when she did that. The heart of the Prophet was filled with admiration for her. He went away muttering something that was hardly understandable but for this sentence: ‘Praise be to God who disposes the hearts.’ When Zaid came back home, she told him that the Messenger of God came. Zaid asked, ‘You asked him to come in, didn’t you?’ She replied, ‘I invited him in, but he refused.’ He said, Did you hear him say anything?’ She answered, ‘When he had turned away, I heard him say something that I could hardly understand. I heard him say, “Praise be to God who disposes the hearts.” ‘ Zaid went out to the Messenger of God and said, ‘O Messenger of God, I learned that you came to my house. Did you come in? O Messenger of God, my father and mother are your ransom. Perhaps you liked Zainab. I can leave her.’ The Messenger of God said, ‘Hold on to your wife.’ Zaid said, ‘O Messenger of God, I will leave her.’ Mohamed said, ‘Keep your wife.’ But when Zaid left her, she finished her legal period after she had isolated herself from Zaid. While the Messenger of God was sitting and talking with `A´isha, he was taken in a trance, and when it lifted, he smiled and said, ‘Who will go to Zainab to tell her that God wedded her to me from heaven?’ The Messenger of God recited; ‘Thus you told someone whom God had favored and whom you yourself have favored: “Hold on to your wife.” ‘ `A´isha said, ‘I heard much about her beauty and, moreover, about how God wedded her from heaven, and I said, “For sure she will boast over this with us.” ‘Salama, the slave of the Messenger of God, hurried to tell her about that. She gave her some silver jewelry that she was wearing.”

    According to Hadith, Muhammad’s marriage to Zainab, who was the wife of his adopted son, led to many accusations against Muhammad. The dissimulators said:

    “Muhammad prohibits the wives of the son while he himself marries the wife of his son Zaid.” Abdullah Ibn Umar narrated: “We have always called him Zaid Ibn Muhammad.” Abdullah Ibn Umar said, “We only called him Zaid Ibn Muhammad till the verse ‘Muhammad is not the father of any of your men’ was revealed.”

    It seems that the community was divided as to whether this was a good practice or not because Zaid was knows as his son and that was normal.

    As a result of the accusations leveled against Muhammad necessitated the revelation of the Qur’anic verses mentioned above which I will restate:

    “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] God’s Messenger and the Seal of the Prophets. God is Aware of everything!”

    Qur’an 33:40
    “We married her off to you so that there would be no objection for believers in respect to their adopted sons’ wives once they have accomplished their purpose with them. God’s command must be done!”

    Qur’an 33:37
    In verse 33:37 there is stated a particular purpose for this revelation and action of Muhammad. It states that it is not for himself, but it is for the future of the Muslim community. According to scholars, it is so that in the future there may not be a problem if a father-in-law wants to marry the divorced wife of an adopted son. Excuses me, but why in God’s green earth would anyone ever want to do that?

    To me, it seems very self-serving. Marrying your former adopted son’s wife and hence, prohibiting adoption as a result in my mind is in no way a moral action. Prohibitions of alcohol drinking, smoking, gambling, sorceries, killing, etc., could be considered moral actions. I get that. But how can this be considered moral?

    According to an article in Al-Masry Al-Youm:

    “Foster parents can support the child financially and raise him or her in their home, but, in Egypt, there is nothing called adoption, which is forbidden by both civil and Islamic law–so fostering remains the only option.
    Because Islam sets stringent rules governing relationships between males and females, foster parents may not keep an orphan in their home beyond puberty. “Religious rules are such that the mother of an adopted boy or the father of an adopted girl must ask the child to leave the house when they reach puberty,” Sheikh Gamal Qutb, former head of Al-Azhar University’s fatwa committee.”

    Orphanage day puts adoption in spotlight
    Ekram Ibrahim, Al-Masry Al-Youm, April 1, 2010
    So then what? After puberty the child just goes back to the orphanage or to the street? How does that benefit society?

    Muslims always explain that this ruling is to keep clear blood lines, but this is not always possible. If a birth mother dumps her child off at an orphanage, there is no way that he will ever know his background1 What is the point of keeping that child in perpetual anguish and making him stigmatized as an orphan for life? And if the issue really is that Muslims fear that a child would marry his sister or brother if he doesn’t know his family background, then that’s what we have blood and DNA tests for! One might say, “Well, things were different back then, they didn’t have this technology.” Fine, so why make kids in this day and age suffer? If Islam is truly reasonable and logical and a religion for all time, where is the flexibility to deal with the current situation of thousands of Muslim orphans around the world that will never be able to say “Mom” or “Dad”?

    Muslims also state that only a birth mother or a birth father can love a child adequately and an adopted child will never be loved in the same way as a birth child. This negates the experience of millions of adoptive parents and their adoptees that can testify to the contrary. Who is anyone to measure the love they feel?

    Furthermore, is bloodline that important in the Muslim world? Obviously not, or it wouldn’t be acceptable to marry your cousin. In the UK:

    “55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins while in Bradford the figure is 75 per cent. Only 3% of all births in Britain are to British Pakistanis parents but they make up one third of children with genetic disorders.”

    Marriage between cousins increases risks to children
    MedicineChest
    If we know that this is the case, why does this continue to go on? Where is the care for children? Where is the mercy for all the children in this video who have genetic disorders as a result of cousin marriages, so prevalent in the Muslim world?

    Where is the divinity in this? Muslims explain that orphans can be fostered, but the whole notion of not being able to give him the family name seems cruel and heartless. Why constantly remind the child every time he is signing up for school or in other legal situations that he is an outsider? Isn’t it clear that this would have psychological effects on the poor youth and make him seem less in the eyes of the other children in the family?

    Lastly, Muslims claim that there is a way out of this; you can breastfeed the child and that makes it legal for you to raise him in puberty. But what if a child’s adoption can not be arranged until he is too old to breastfeed? What if he has been kept at an orphanage that does not have their act together and didn’t get the paperwork straight? As a result, he would have to leave his foster family when he reaches puberty because the only way in Islam to legitimize the relationship between the female family members and adoptee is for him to have been breastfed by the mother.

    The prohibition of inheritance also seems like it could cause a great deal of hurt. If a child had been loyal to a family and loved his “foster” parents as his own, went through all the steps together in life, why would loving people want to make a very clear statement “you weren’t really one of us” upon their death? Isn’t inheritance mostly a symbol? What message does this send a child who cared for his “foster” or “adopted” parents when they were sick, who gave them the same love that their natural children gave them? I have never seen a study on the psychological conditions of orphans in the Muslim world but according to my students who volunteer at a local orphanage here in Egypt they say, “Miss, they are just existing, getting no real education and have no real future.” I just don’t get it. How is this benefiting anyone?

    I don’t know, how in the world anyone could dislike such an honorable act as adopting a child in the total sense of the word. There are millions of children around the world who lack love and care. Angelina Jolie is a hero as far as I am concerned! I certainly never knew any of this when I converted to Islam.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    The Devdasi parctice, Sati practice is condemned by law in India but sexual slavery is part of Islamic ethos still practiced…
    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Concerns_with_Islam:_Sexual_Slavery_in_Islam
    Concerns with Islam: Sexual Slavery in Islam
    From WikiIslam
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Concerns with Islam:
    Thoughts from an American Convert
    By Americana X
    Introduction
    Ch.1: Apostasy
    Ch 2: Immoral, Unjustified, and Preemptive Warfare and Violence
    Ch.3: Child Marriage
    Ch.4: Women’s Lack of Legal Rights and Equality
    Ch.5: How Women Are Perceived Disrespectfully
    Ch.6: Wife Beating
    Ch.7: Men and Women are Not Equal at All In Islam
    Ch.8: Sexual Slavery in Islam
    Ch.9: Adoption
    Ch.10: Democracy is not Compatible with Islam
    Conclusion

    Islam has a long history of the enslavement of women. Of course, this was never mentioned to me at all. It was always said that a Muslim man can marry up to 4 women but 1 is better and hardly anybody actually did that any more. I never understood that part about “And that which your right hand possesses” but in truth, upon further study, it is quite clear that sexual slavery was practiced by the first Muslims.

    There are hundreds of Hadith that deal with slavery and whole chapters of Hadith are dedicated to dealing with the taxation, treatment, sale, and jurisprudence of slaves. In addition to this, many Hadith mention slaves, and their relation to their Muslim masters. Here is a well known example that deals directly with our topic of female slaves used for sexual purposes according to Sahih Bukhari.

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s Apostle about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.”

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:137
    So, the Muslim warriors took prisoners of war and used them for sexual purposes. Mohamed doesn’t address this at all. He doesn’t say, “Do not have sex with them,” or “Ask for their hand in marriage and if they don’t agree, leave them alone.” Instead he addresses their question which is frankly, “During sex, can we pull out our members before we ejaculate (coitus interruptus) so as to not get them pregnant?” There is no mention of the emotional state of these women. No mercy for the feelings of those who had just seen their men-folk captured or killed and then taken off to a foreign land in which they were inevitably traumatized, scared, and far from everything familiar. Muhammad simply states that there is no reason to not ejaculate inside of them because whatever happens is destiny anyways, i.e. if they get pregnant, so they get pregnant. It’s Allah’s will.

    This Hadith is similar to the above. However, additional details are added:

    Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: “I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu said, “We went out with Allah’s messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said “How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah’s messenger while he is present among us?” We asked (him) about it and he said “It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.”

    Sahih Bukhari 5:59:459
    Related Hadith show that they didn’t want to get the women pregnant because they wanted the option to sell them or negotiate them for a ransom later on. Under Islamic law, they couldn’t sell pregnant female slaves.

    In effect, Muhammad Okayed non-consensual sex. Could anyone believe that these women actually wanted to have sex with these men? Everyone always says what a mercy Islam was for woman because it erased the practice of burying girls alive. While that is true, I think that an issue as important as a woman’s choice of sexual partners is also an integral issue that should have been dealt with in a vastly different way.

    Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, “Don’t you see this (i.e. Ali)?” When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, “O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?” I said, “Yes” He said, “Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus.”(Sahih Bukhari Vol. 5 No. 637)

    Sahih Bukhari 5:59:637
    The note for this Hadith says “Buraida hated Ali because he had taken a slave girl frorm the booty and considered that as something not good.”

    Here Ali took a newly captured slave girl, and had sex with her. It seems that when Muhammad was told about it, he didn’t have a problem with this, and further stated that Ali deserved more than this.

    Narrated Anas: “…..The prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives….”

    Sahih Bukhari 5:59:512
    This Hadith details the attack on the Jews of Khaibar. Again, many of the women and children were taken and made into slaves.

    There are hundreds of other Hadith that deal with the topic of slavery in Islam, too numerous to mention. But does the Qur’an deal with the issue of female sexual slavery? Most definitely, and in vivid detail.

    “O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee”

    Qur’an 33:50
    This is a special command that Muhammad handed down to himself, allowing virtually unlimited concubines. Although Muslims are limited to four wives, but they may also have sex with an unlimited number of slaves, as long as they are obtained in Jihad.

    “..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess…”

    Qur’an 23:5-6
    This verse allows the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

    “And those who are fearful of the punishment of their Lord, indeed, the punishment of their Lord is not that from which one is safe – And those who guard their private parts, Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy.”

    Qur’an 70:27-30
    This is a direct reference to concubines taken in Jihad.

    “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”

    Qur’an 4:24
    So in other words, (once they enter Muslim territory) sex with married slaves is permissible because they were taken in Jihad.

    Muslims will constantly say that these verses are taken out of context, but then they will never explain the context to a Western female. Instead they will question your Iman and ask questions regarding your questions which try to make you feel insecure and imply that you are weak, at least that was my experience.

    However, Maududi, a respected Islamic writer of Tafseer clearly writes regarding this issue:

    Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in one’s possession, i.e. slave-girls. Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relation with one’s slave-girl as with one’s wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately.

    23. Al-Muminun
    Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur’an
    According to Mufti Ebrahim Desai, a prominent sheikh of the Marasah In’aamiyyah in Cape Town, South Africa, when asked if female slavery could be implemented in this day and age, he responded with the following:

    One question that still remains is whether slavery still legally prevails anywhere in the Islamic world and whether it can be successfully implemented in this age…. Firstly, the prisoners have to be captured in ‘Jihaad’ in the true sense of the word.….. According to Islamic Law, captive female prisoners are also part and parcel of the booty. One fifth of the booty has to be first distributed to the needy, orphans, etc. The remaining four-fifths should then be distributed among the soldiers who participated in the war. The distribution can only take effect after the booty is brought into Islamic territory. The Ameerul-Mu’mineen (Head of the Islamic State) remains the guardian of the female prisoners until he allocates them to the soldiers. Only after a soldier has been allotted a slave girl, and made the owner of her, will she become his lawful possession. After she spends a period called ‘Istibraa’, which is the elapse of one menstrual period, it becomes permissible for her owner to have relations with her.

    What is a slave girls in islam?
    Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Ask-Imam.com, Question 14421
    It may be argued that American slave-owners committed sexual crimes against their slaves before the Civil War (1861-1865), so who are Americans to complain about Islam?

    In fact, the two situations are different i.e. apples can not be compared to oranges. First, it is wrong to compare the US with the Muslim community founded by Muhammad, who claimed divine inspiration. Instead, it is best to compare the founder of a religion for example Jesus or Buddha with another founder, Muhammad. Second, in no place in the New Testament or in the Diamond Sutras does God give permission to men, to have sex with slave-girls. If Americans in a bygone era did this, then they were simply being immoral, but it was not religiously sanctified. The Quran, however, codifies and legalizes these sexual acts. I just don’t know how any clear-thinking individual can not see that having sex with women in a very desperate condition i.e. being enslaved is wrong.

    One might say, but how does this affect you and most women in this day and age? First of all, anything done in Islamic history can be revived at any time, so if Muslims gained power over Western nations, which many have every intention of doing, and practiced Jihad as the followers of Islam actually did, which they are commanded to do, it is plausible that this could happen. Secondly, again, Mohamed was presented to me as a spiritual leader, not a military warlord, so inevitably, a person assessing Islam has to ask himself, “Are these the actions of the person who should be followed and admired for all time?”

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    It is true that child abuse is prevalent in whole world including western world but it is condemned by law and punishable whereas child abuse in Islam is sanctioned and is part of SUNNAT (actions of mohammad to be followed by muslims)… This is story of 6 year old girl Ayesha, daughter of Mohammad’s friend, who was molested and forced into marriage by prophet of peace..
    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consummation

    Aisha’s Age of Consummation
    From WikiIslam
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    The age difference between 9 year old Aisha and 54 year old Muhammad was 45 yearsThis article discusses the DMS (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) of mental disorders and cites sahih hadiths to prove that Muhammad was a pedophile according to clinical definitions.

    For all related sahih hadiths confirming Aisha’s age at marriage and consummation, see: Qur’an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha

    Contents [hide]
    1 Pedophilia
    1.1 Pedophilia according to DSM-IV-TR
    2 Was Muhammad a Pedophile?
    2.1 Only pre-pubescent girls were allowed to play with dolls
    2.1.1 Sahih Bukhari
    2.1.1.1 Alternative Translations
    2.1.2 Does the phrase ‘little girls’ mean pre-pubescent?
    2.2 Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad consummated the marriage
    2.3 Consummating the marriage means sexual intercourse
    2.3.1 Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4914
    2.3.1.1 Proof One
    2.3.1.2 Proof Two
    2.3.1.3 Proof Three
    2.3.1.4 Proof Four
    2.4 Summary
    3 Conclusion
    4 Quotes on Muhammad relating to Pedophilia
    5 Responses to Apologetics
    6 See also
    7 External Links
    8 Linking to this article
    9 References

    [edit] Pedophilia
    Many critics of Islam claim Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha was a pedophilic relationship, therefore Muhammad was a pedophile.

    Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: “Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.”

    Sahih Muslim 8:3310
    In psychiatry, the most commonly used diagnostic criteria for diagnosing psychiatric ailments are those from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders. The latest issue is DSM-IV-TR. The DSM classification is a system that classifies and defines all accepted psychiatric ailments and symptoms, with their inclusion and exclusion criteria. The following are the inclusion and exclusion criteria for pedophilia (302.2):

    [edit] Pedophilia according to DSM-IV-TR
    A. Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
    B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

    C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

    Note: This does not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

    Diagnostic Critiera for Pedophilia
    Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Psychiatry Online
    “According to the DSM-IV definition, pedophilia involves sexual activity by an adult with a prepubescent child. Some individuals prefer females, usually 8- to 10-year-olds. Those attracted to males usually prefers slightly older children. Some prefer both sexes. While some are sexually attracted only to children, others also are sometimes attracted to adults.
    Pedophiliac activity may involve undressing and looking at the child or more direct physical sex acts. All these activities are psychologically harmful to the child, and some may be physically harmful. In addition, individuals with pedophilia often go to great lengths to obtain photos, films or pornographic publications that focus on sex with children.

    These individuals commonly explain their activities with excuses or rationalizations that the activities have “educational value” for the child, that the child feels “sexual pleasure” from the activities or that the child was “sexually provocative.” However, child psychiatrists and other child development experts maintain that children are incapable of offering informed consent to sex with an adult. Furthermore, since pedophiliac acts harm the child, psychiatrists condemn publications or organizations that seek to promote or normalize sex between adults and children.”

    Diagnostic Critiera for Pedophilia
    Medem Medical Library
    In the following article, it will be shown that Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha did indeed meet all the criteria to make the diagnosis of pedophilia, and therefore Muhammad was undoubtedly a pedophile.

    [edit] Was Muhammad a Pedophile?
    Modern day Islamic apologists, and Islamophiles alike, will very often claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad married and had sexual intercourse with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof for this bold assertion. Instead, they rely on the pre-Islamic culture and traditional practices of 7th Century Arabia as evidence of their claim. This is of course completely false, as demonstrated by the hadith and the commentary of one of Islam’s most famous scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-’Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, “Fateh al-Bari.”

    To prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her, one has to understand Ibn Hajar’s explanation of the permissibility of doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls in Islam. Applying this doll-playing exegesis to the ahadith of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with Muhammad, one can effectively demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these occasions This evidence will be examined in the following three sections.

    [edit] Only pre-pubescent girls were allowed to play with dolls
    This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-’Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, had to say in regards to doll-playing and little girls:

    [edit] Sahih Bukhari
    Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
    How do we know that it was Ibn Hajar who made the above (bolded) doll-playing exegesis? We know this by the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and also due to the fact that when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:73:151, the same message is conveyed.

    [edit] Alternative Translations
    One

    On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

    Little Girls Playing With Dolls
    The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra’uf Shakir
    The translator then provides some discussion on translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari:

    Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar – of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).

    Little Girls Playing With Dolls
    The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra’uf Shakir
    Two

    But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me…” al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440. Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ‘Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys…

    Answering-Islam.org – Revisiting the Issue of Muhammad’s Marriage with a child bride
    Three

    Aaishah said, “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah’s Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.” In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-’Asqalaanee wrote the following: “This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ‘Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children…”

    Eeman reading series
    Note the great similarity in the commentary of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari to all four versions of the hadith. The words are different due to the different translators but the essential message is unchanged – only little girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.

    [edit] Does the phrase ‘little girls’ mean pre-pubescent?
    How do we know that these “little girls” are pre-pubescent? This is due to Islamic customs and laws specifically stating so.

    For example:

    Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd). Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.

    For Whom is Fasting Necessary?
    USC – Muslim Students Association, Compendium of Muslim Texts
    Islam And the Age of Puberty

    Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained puberty.

    The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
    Madrassah In’aamiyya
    These Islamic websites provide us with the evidence, that in Islam when a girl reaches puberty, she ceases to be considered a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore, little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.

    We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point:

    Al-Qaadee ‘Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu’ab) for little girls, to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and child-rearing. Al-Khattaabee said: … it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa’eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time, reached the age of puberty.

    Little Girls Playing With Dolls
    The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra’uf Shakir
    … Abu ‘Ubaid, who said: We don’t see there being any reason for that (permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).

    Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
    The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra’uf Shakir
    [edit] Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad consummated the marriage
    “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”

    Tabari IX:131
    This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts, although the Bukhari 5:58:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the events took place on Aisha’s wedding day:

    Narrated Aisha: “The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

    Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234
    ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

    Sahih Muslim 8:3311
    Also note that Sahih Muslim says Aisha still had her dolls with her when she was taken to Muhammad’s house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar’s doll-playing exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent when she became a bride.

    Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths, that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.

    [edit] Consummating the marriage means sexual intercourse

    3 year old child-bride Sunam, dressed up in her bridal outfit.The following proof is slightly controversial due to the fact that Sunan Abu Dawud is not unanimously accepted by Muslims to be Sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud is still the third most respected collection of ahadith, and the relevant narration used here is considered Sahih by some of the most authoritative ahadith scholars, includin Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari’ (Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Medina).

    “Aisha said, “The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old.” (The narrator Sulaiman said: “Or six years.”). “He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.”

    Abu-Dawud 2:2116
    Here we see that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 lunar years old. Is this age confirmed by any other (Sahih) ahadith? Yes it is:

    Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old.

    Sahih Bukhari 5:58:236
    Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64
    Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:65
    Narrated ‘Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88
    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

    Abu Dawud 41:4915
    Apologists will insist that the term “consummate the marriage” means ‘nikah’, not sex. This is in spite of the Abu-Dawud hadith Vol. 2, No. 2116 translation that explicitly states ‘intercourse’ . Be that as it may, does “consummate the marriage” mean sex? Here is proof that it does:

    There has been some confusion about the definition of the word “consummate”. In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, No. 64, the root word used is “dakhala”. From the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means “to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman”.

    Definition of the word translated as “consummate”
    Children of Muslims
    But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still pre-pubescent? Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu-Dawud, Vol. 3, No. 4914 (This hadith is also repeated in Sunan Nasa’i):

    On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar (the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told “Tabook or Khaibar.”). There was a curtain covering her ’sahwah’ (chamber or small room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and uncovered Aisha’s dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings. He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn’t you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon – AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [1]

    [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani (ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]
    Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-’Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh (explanation) of Sunan Abu-Dawud, says:

    This hadith and the one before it (Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This (permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty by al-Qaadee ‘Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor (Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.
    According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in Muharram-Safar 7 AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous, I will accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.

    It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet’s hijra from Makkah to al-Medinah.

    Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-’Adheem Aabaadee
    So the Abu-Dawud hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls as late as 7 AH. That is 6 or 7 years after her marriage. Using the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee ‘Iyaad, and Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6 to 7 years after her marriage when she would have been about 15 or 16 years old, but lets say 14 years old to be generous.

    [edit] Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4914
    Note that some apologists will try to say that this hadith is not sahih. They will use the following translation of the same hadith and highlight the phrase “the narrator is doubtful”:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:

    When the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

    He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.

    Abu Dawud 41:4914
    The evidence that this hadith is indeed sahih, and that the phrase “the narrator is doubtful” does not mean to imply that the hadith itself is doubtful, but the fact that the narrator was doubtful in regards to whether or not he was told it was Khaybar or Tabuk, is as follows:

    [edit] Proof One
    Various versions of the hadith include confirmation that it is sahih/authenticated/authentic, including one that refers to Sahih Abu-Dawud (a collection of Abu-Dawud hadiths that are deemed sahih):

    On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar (the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told “Tabook or Khaibar.”). There was a curtain covering her ’sahwah’ (chamber or small room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and uncovered Aisha’s dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings. He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn’t you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon – AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [2]

    Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa’iee as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa’ee is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani (ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)
    Aboo Daawood and an-Nasaa’ee collected this hadeeth in another chain from Aaishah in which she said, “When Allaah’s Messenger (pbuh) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar, the wind raised an end of a curtain which hung in front of my closet, revealing some dolls which belonged to me. He asked me, ‘What is this?’ I replied: My dolls. He saw among them a horse made of wrapped cloth with wings, and asked, ‘What is this I am seeing among them?’ I replied: A horse. He asked, ‘A horse with wings?’ I replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? Allaah’s Messenger (pbuh) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.”

    5 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123.
    This hadith is very clear that the meaning of playthings (lu‘ab) mentioned in the earlier narration does not refer to humans.[3]

    On the authority of Aa’ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: ‘The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa’ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to play. He said: “What is this O Aa’ishah?” She replied ‘my daughters (Arabs used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings made out of a piece of cloth. He said: “What is this?” She replied: ‘A horse’ He said: “and what are those on the horses?” She replied: ‘Two wings’ He said: “A horse with two wings?!” Aa’ishah said: ‘The Prophet laughed until I could see his molar teeth.’ [4]

    [Authentic - Abu Dawood An Nisa'ee in Al-Ishrah]
    Not only is the chain of narrators authentic according to Albani – but two other Islamic sources say ‘authentic’ or ‘authenticated.’

    [edit] Proof Two
    The version taken from the The Muslim Woman site states that, “the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told “Tabook or Khaibar”. That is, not in doubt about the hadith.

    [edit] Proof Three
    Alternative translations do not carry the word ‘doubt’:

    Also on the authority of Aisha who said: “The Prophet (saw) returned from the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room. The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said, “What is this, O Aisha?” She said: “My daughters.” (Arabs used to call dolls for “daughters”) He saw among them a horse with two wings made of pieces of cloth. He said “And what is this in the middle?” She said, “A horse.” He said, “and what are those on the horse?” She said: “Two wings.” He said, ”A horse with two wings?!” Aisha said: “The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could see his molar teeth”[5]

    (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa’ee)
    On the authority of Aa’ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: ‘The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa’ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to play. He said: “What is this O Aa’ishah?” She replied ‘my daughters (Arabs used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings made out of a piece of cloth. He said: “What is this?” She replied: ‘A horse’ He said: “and what are those on the horses?” She replied: ‘Two wings’ He said: “A horse with two wings?!” Aa’ishah said: ‘The Prophet laughed until I could see his molar teeth.’[6]

    [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in Al-Ishrah]
    [edit] Proof Four
    Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their judgment of Islamic laws and customs. Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari’ (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to say about image-making in al-Usrah:

    “Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one of the dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh) asked her about it, she replied, ‘Didn’t you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman had a horse with wings?’ to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing; this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children’s figurative toys, owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not, and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah’s dolls were not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not based on any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?” [7]

    Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari’
    How can apologists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Medina uses a hadith that is not sahih in deciding the permissibility of doll-playing among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari’ of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.

    If using a weak hadith, a scholar must warn the reader of its weakness:

    “Generally, in Islamic law, only the authentic (sahih) and good (hasan) hadiths are used in deriving the rules. The weak (da`if) hadiths have no value for the purpose of Shari`ah. However, the scholars of hadith sometimes differ among themselves in the determination of whether some Hadiths are weak or not. The scholars have sometimes used weak hadiths for moral and spiritual (fada’il) matters. It is important that when one uses a weak hadith for any reason, one should explain it to the people that this is weak hadith and that it is being used for this particular reason.”

    What is the Value of a Weak Hadith?
    Islam Online, Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of Fiqh Council — North America, March 22, 2006
    It is clear from this article that Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari’ (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Medina) did not say anything about Abu-Dawud 4914 being weak – thus it cannot be considered as such.

    Please also note what the reference says at the end of the article:

    Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1373, no.4914 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood, vol. 3, p. 932, no. 4123

    (For alternative proof that Aisha had not reached puberty till many years after the consummation of her marriage, using Sahih Bukhari, click here)

    [edit] Summary
    In the first section, it was shown that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and customs.
    In the second section it was shown, using Ibn Hajar’s doll-playing exegesis that Aisha remained a pre-pubescent child when she was married and had sexual intercourse with Muhammad.
    In the third section it was shown that Aisha remained pre-pubescent as late as 6 or 7 years after her marriage to Muhammad.
    [edit] Conclusion
    Does Muhammad meet all the criteria needed to be classed a Pedophile?

    Criteria A: Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
    Yes, Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent child over a prolonged period – likely to have been at least 6 to 7 years.

    Criteria B: The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
    Yes, Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges – as demonstrated by Tabari IX:131 and various other Bukhari ahadith that state that consummation had taken place at the age of nine when it had been established that Aisha had not reached puberty until she was at least 14 years of age.

    Criteria C: The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
    Yes, Muhammad was 54 years old while Aisha was only 9 years old at the time of sexual intercourse.

    Therefore, even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia – the DSM-IV-TR – Muhammad would be found guilty as charged.

    [edit] Quotes on Muhammad relating to Pedophilia
    Ibn Warraq, former Muslim and author “child marriages continue to be practiced, and the fact that the Prophet himself married Aisha when she was only nine and he was fifty-three encourages Muslim society to continue with this iniquitous custom.”[8]
    Ayaan Hirsi Ali, former Muslim, author and politician “If the Prophet Muhammad went to bed with a nine-year-old, then according to Dutch law he is a pedophile.”[9]
    Jerri Vines, former Southern Baptist Convention president “Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, and his last one was a 9-year-old girl”[10]
    Daniela Santanchè, Italian entrepreneur and politician “Mohammed was a polygamist and a paedophile because he had nine wives, one of whom was only nine years old, that is a historical fact”[11]
    Runar Søgaard, celebrity preacher and motivational speaker Called Muhammad a “confused pedophile” and received death threats [12]
    William Montgomery Watt, influential scholar and a revered name for Muslims all over the world “Aisha was still a child when Muhammad married her, and she continued to play with her toys.”[13]

    Responses to Apologetics
    1.”The Qur’an does not say that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl”
    True. However, the Qur’an is not a biography of Muhammad. By name, he is only mentioned 4 times in the Qur’an.[14] The Qur’an is not a historical narrative and without the Hadiths and Sirat (which are accepted by the majority of the worlds Muslims and Islamic scholars) there would be no Five Pillars, Islam as Muslims know it would be unrecognisable, and there would be no historical evidence that a person known as Prophet Muhammad even existed. Therefore they cannot be ignored. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself permits pedophilia in verse 65:4.
    2.”Muhammad only married her, he did not have sex with her.”
    Not true. According to multiple sahih hadiths, as explored in this article, Muhammad consummated the marriage, meaning, he had sex with Aisha when she was 9. Also the Qur’an permits sex with pre-puberty females and there is no purpose of marriage if there will be no sex between the couple. If 54 year old Muhammad didn’t want to have sex with 9 year old Aisha but wanted to keep her in his house, he could easily have adopted her as his grand-daughter instead.
    3.”Muhammad waited for 3 years so she could attain puberty before having sex with her.”
    Not true. This article (and this one) proves that she remained pre-pubertal at the time of consummation. Also according to Sahih (authentic) Bukhari, Aisha fell ill and lost her hair after her marriage/engagement to Muhammad at the age of six. The same hadith also confirms that she was “handed over to him” once her hair grew back. And according to Tabari (a less reliable, yet widely respected and accepted source among Muslims), the delay was due to Muhammad not having the gold to pay the sadaq. We must also note that it is not unusual for a pedophile to know his intended child partner for some years before initiating sexual contact. This is known as “grooming”. A survey by the Mayo Clinic revealed heterosexual male pedophiles prefered girls in the age range of 8-10 years (Aisha was 9), and frequently met them when they were even younger.[15] One thing we can be sure of is that the delay had nothing to do with her pubertal status, as such an important issue would not have gone without some commentary by the early Islamic sources and it would have also contradicted Muhammad’s Qur’anic revelation which sanctions pedophilia.
    4.”Some Islamic sources say she was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhamad had sex with her.”
    Not true. Interestingly, these claim’s had been previously inserted into this article by a vandal. Unfortunately for the vandal, all sahih sources of Aisha’s own testimony confirm she was aged nine at the time. These alternate ages have been derived from misquotations, indirect sources, fuzzy dating techniques, and slander, in an attempt to cast doubt upon facts which have been unquestionably accepted by Muslims for almost 1,500 years. Even today, the vast majority of the worlds Muslims acknowledge and accept Aisha’s young age and many of these honest Muslims take offence to these lies propagated by western Muslim apologists who are embarrassed by their prophets actions. In fact, Islamic scholar and teacher of Fiqh at Sunnipath.com and Livingislam.org, Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad’s work has been referenced in our refutation to all these claims, which you can read here.
    5.”Pedophiles prefer children, but Muhammad had many adult wives.”
    Not true. The stringent DSM-IV-TR clinical definition of pedophilia which is used here does not require a person to be solely or preferentially attracted to children for a positive diagnosis of pedophilia. The DSM-IV only requires that someone have had a sexual attraction for a child and have acted on that attraction at least once. According to statistics provided by the Mayo Clinic, 93% of heterosexual male pedophiles have also engaged in adult relationships.[15] One must also realize that having adult wives does in no way mean he preferred adults to children. On the contrary, thanks to Islamic oral traditions,[16] we know that Muhammad actually preferred young virgin girls to “matrons”, he had sexual intentions for at least one other baby girl, he coveted a child princess still being wet-nursed, and he also had a penchant for kissing and sucking the tongues of young boys. Lastly, it is common knowledge that Aisha, who was Muhammad’s only child bride, was also his favorite wife.
    6.”It was okay to have sex with 9 year olds back then.”
    Thls assertion that it was acceptable for much older men to marry and have sex with pre-pubescent children is unproven. To support this claim, Muslims often claim it was Aisha’s father who offered her in marriage to Muhammad. This is untrue. It was in fact Muhammad who approached Abu Bakr, and he (Aisha’s father) initially protested.[17] During the Medieval period it was the norm in Jewish Middle Eastern cultures for girls to be given in marriage when they were 12-13 years old, coinciding perfectly with the average age at menarche in the Medieval Middle East which was also 12-13 years. A large age gap between the spouses (like that found between Muhammad and Aisha) was opposed. Besides, a lot of other things were acceptable “back then” but that does not make them any more moral or right.
    7.”All religious founders were products of their time. We cannot judge Muhammad by today’s standards.”
    Not true. Unlike other faiths, in Islam, Muhammad is the “uswa hasana, al-Insān al-Kāmil” (the perfect human, whose example is worthy of imitation). The Qur’an even refers to his morality as “sublime” (Qur’an 68:4), and as the Qur’an is believed by Muslims to be the literal and final words of God, they are beyond the constraints of time. All Muslims consider Muhammad to be the perfect example to follow. For a Muslim to suggest otherwise (thereby conceding that Muhammad’s actions are immoral when compared to today’s standards) would constitute apostasy via blasphemy in belief[18] and would make them liable for the death sentence under Islamic laws. Muhammad also claimed it was Allah’s will (through a dream)[19] that he marry Aisha, thus destroying any appeal to cultural relativism.
    8.”Mary was 12-14 so Joseph was a pedophile too!”
    This is a logical fallacy known as Tu quoque, and its not a very good one. Ignoring the world of difference between a pre-pubescent 9 year-old and a childbearing 14 year-old, this argument and the claims it makes have been decisively refuted here.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Rajeev,

    Please don’t go in Ram Autar’s route.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sure..I am just trying to see the response from some closet Islamic terrorism sympathisers..

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Islam or Hinduism or any other religion is not the main problem today. Just like they are not the solution to anything, they are not the answer to anything either.

    All religious text contains good as well as violent disgusting aspects. Hanuman can be called a terrorist, because he burnt the whole of lanka, surely causing the death of women and children. Krishna- the hindu god tells Arjuna, that your duty as a kshtriya is to fight wars…even if it is against your blood-relatives… He also says that the death of the people, he kills, is not on him, since it is god that kills and god that gives birth… thereby giving war a religious sanction.

    All of this hinges on interpretation. Now coming on to modern times,

    The biggest violence today is not that done by islamic terrorists, but by Nation states. The US, Nazi germany, Israel, the USSR, China, India, Srilanka, Pakistan, Saudi-Arabia are easily the most violent states of the last century. The Islamic terrorists got their weapons and funding primarily from nation states.

    The US(secular), Israel(apartheid regime) and Saudi-Arabia (religious fanatics) are best buddies for a good reason….

    Terrorism from Islamic militants will stop, sooner or later…but not by the nation states.

    Unfortunately, people do not call the terror of the powerful as terrorism… This has always been the case…as St Augustine, says in his story of the Pirate and the king…. the King is the bigger Pirate…but his actions are never called that….

    things have not changed a bit since those days…

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I forgot the british!!!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bobby , you forgot quite a bit , the portugese, spanish

    @Bobby,you forgot quite a few nation states, portugese , spanish (cortez wiped out Maya civilization in one month), and of course ISLAM , wiped out all the memory , all the history of ARABIA FELIX.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I could not have put it better myslef.

    After all, even Margaret Thatcher described Nelson Mandella as a terrorist.

    Manachem Begin was described as Terrorist as were Bhagat Singh, Raj Guru and Sukhdev.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    So you mean to say Osama is equal to Nelson Mandela..may be for you talibanis..

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    So, what are you saying? People whom we label as terrorists now – Zaeed, Dr Al Sawheri, Al Alwlacki, OBL (or your favorite Purohit etc) – are like Nelsen Mandela or Bhagat Singh…
    Dont understand…

    Wasnt Begin always a terrorist, even after becoming PM of Israel? Did he get resurrected?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I assume that this question was addressed to me.

    Not I do not mean that Osama and or Al Zawahri are Not a terrorists. Undoubtedly they are.

    However, I am sure that there are people who do not share your and my view on it, because there perspective is different.

    Nelson Mandela was a terrorist for the white South African Regime as led by P W Botha and co, while a lot of other people led by the ANC did not. Mrs Thatcher and British Business were deeply involved with Whire South Africa and therefore adopted their view point. The present Conservative party no sees Nelson Mandela as a Great Man.

    People do say that one mans terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, Manachiem Begin/Bhagat Singh/Raj Guru/Sukh Dev all fall into this category. Yet the British of thise times saw Bhagat Singh much in the same way as we today see Osama and Al Zawhari. Times and scales may be different but the concepts are much the same.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    British obviously saw Bhagat singh as a terrorist or undesirable, because he ws fighting against them (and wanted to kill or killed them).

    We (or i) are seeing bhagat Singh quite differently from OBL or Al Sawhiri. Bhagat Singh was a patriot trying to take his country from the foreign masters.

    May be we have come to the roots of Islamic terrorisma nd why it will not settle soon. For whom are Al Sawhari and OBL fighting for? On whose behalf are theys ending children to explode? is Al Sawhiri fighting to bring democracy or theorcarcy or whatever in his home vcountry of Egypt? How can he be comapred to a Bhagat Singh? Al Sawhiri is for his life– he ran away from Egypt, not having the guts to clean upo that place. The sad truth is that they have brainwashed generation of young muslims, promising, whatever, who knows

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I am not arguing against you, just exploring the concept of a terrorist a bit further.

    OBL and Al Zawahri and AQ is principally focused on US and its interests abroad. They have managed to pull of some spectacular attacks. For those reasons there are many people in the Muslim world who consider these two Uber Terrorists as heroes.

    I am afraid the same can not be said about the Taliban and or other violent Muslim organisations in Pakistan; here the picture becomes a bit murky. It is a heady mixture of Islamic/Political and Nationalistic issues which combine into a grossly unsavoury dish.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You may like to read this…

    ____________________________

    Scott Atran on changing the heroes of Islamic terrorists

    Posted on November 10, 2010 by neilrobbie

    At 6:52am this morning, American anthropologist, Scott Atran, was interviewed on BBC Radio 4′s Today programme about what shapes and forms Islamic suicide bombers. What he said fascinated me. In his work with jihadist terrorists all over the world he has looked at social networks and friends rather than religious ideology as the source of the problem. He concludes that religion doesn’t shape people so much as who they know and associate with. The suicide bombers, says Atran, are ordinary people looking for social identity, dreams, heroes and significance.

    Atran asked the kids who became caught up in the jihadist movement in Morocco “who do you most respect, who is your hero?” The list of names was topped by the footballer Robinho, second the Terminator and third Osama Bin Laden. He then asked, how can we move the potential suicide bombers away from their narrow mindset and social networks? Militarisation has failed. It is a disaster. We’ve created a global threat. Bombs and bluster don’t work.

    Atran’s proposed alternative policy is to provide alternative heroes and hopes. The idea is to break into social networks with a different kind of dream, a new hero, working from the community level up.

    That’s where the interview ended. There were no suggested heroes, only the idea of using comic books to convey a new message. I was left wondering what kind of hero and dream could possibly replace the distorted heroes and dreams Atran has discovered and bring about peace?

    The hero would have to be one with global appeal. No parochial, tribal hero, but one for all. To be a worthwhile substitute for the jihadist’s false hope of happiness through martyrdom, he would have to offer the prospect of eternal life. He’d have to be a martyr himself. But he couldn’t be a man of war, he’d need to be a peacemaker, with a royal title, perhaps, the prince of peace. He’d need to teach a life of self control, discipline, prayer, fasting, self sacrifice and giving to the poor. He’d need to be greater than the little heroes, not only human but divine. He’d need to grow from the grass-root level, providing a new social network, a new family of like minded brothers and sisters. Which hero could possibly fit that bill?

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    It is partially true. Along with finding a hero or quarter of a hero, Muslims have to fix their ailments. An Indian Dalit, even in his worst time say early 1900s , did not reach out for violence. The dirt poor Haitians or africans do not resort to violence. Blacks in America, even at the heights of racial discrimination did not resort to violence. So, the issue as to what ailstMuslims to kill indiscriminately has to be dealt with by Muslims – their institutions or lack of institutions, their guiding the young minds, their openness — all leading to how to cut the chord between governance and governed, private life and public life, coexistence, adaptation to a lifesystem where there are no Caliphs etc…

    Along with finding a hero, or even more important than that, is the closing down of all madrasas, or impart the madrasa “religious” education only after 10th standard or something like that. Many young minds are corrupted and trained by these Madrasas (I can hear the drumbeat that they are different in india) — I read somewhere that a large percentage of young volunteers involved in Paksitani terrorism within Pakistan, and outside Pakistan, are the products of these madrasas.

    The Singapore strongman (Kew Luan??) made sure that Madrasas in Singapore are like any other highs chool – science, humanities, languages and no monkey business of what the Book says.

    Will Msulims look into the Madrassa system (I am not advocating not to impart religious education, but to do it when the kids have a general edu background, say 10th standard; and then let it be taught by “educated” Muslims, not the third grade Mullahs. May be that is the first non-violent step in the long awaited and badly needed reformation process.

    Without those type of changes, no hero is going to do any good.. My humble opinion.

    And we have to ask this question — why do only Muslims (or a subset of them) need this “hero” business.. Who is robbing them of their aspirations? Who is preventing them from achieving? Why should Shazad who had an MBA, who had a privileged childhood as the son of a An admiral in Pakistan do these violent stuff? Didnt he have his dad as a hero? Didnt he have the US constitution as an example of a great “equalizer” document? What is preventing a Moroccan to be a successful architect (or whatever) in Morocco?

    If am rambling, i am… What they do and do not do do not match with common sense…..

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde, You are not rambling , utter bullshit this talk of lack of suitable heroes . Most cases in my opinion is JOSHE JAWANI, TELL THESE FIDAYEENSTO WORK FOR THE POOR N SOMALIA , it doesn’t provide that kick , on top of that as a syrian clean shaven scholar said on BBC “what you are seeing is the attempt to overcome the impotence and inferirority complex and the last gasp before it gives way to liberal secular democracy.

    shan Reply:

    Margaret Thatcher may have described mandela terrorist, she has been described as iron t i t s, once a operating dept asst remarked that he regretted IRA missed her in Brighton Hotel.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    When krishna asked Arjuna “”” religious sanction” — there was no “religion” in His days.. What religion are you talking about?

    Absolutely true that religion is no answer nor solution. But many do believe that “religious” is synonymous with kind, accepting, tolerating etc.

    The problem or issue with the worldwide Islamic terrorism is that a group of Islamists do believe religion- one type of religion and nothing else – is the solution.

    Rational people can say it is not this or that; pretty soon irrationals wll take over the asylum.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    May be Hanuman was the terrorist..do you agree that Mohammad too was a terrorist who attacked peaceful people of Arabia to impose his ideology?
    Do you think your dear Osama is equal to Nelson mandela? I never heard Nelson mandela using violent tactics.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    Your thesis has mythological sanction too. As you know, Hanuman is one person of Ramayana who never died.. blessed as he is with immortality.
    Now I know those planes that crashed into the twintowers was actually Hanuman giving vent to pyromania..
    Hindu-Zionist-Amreekan cabal; please put your hands together and welcome Hanuman in your midst!

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Well, talking about Iworldwide Islamic terrorism, a “gandhian” type more troublesome “soft terrorist” movement has been uncovered by Canadian Govt.

    It seems many Canadian Muslims are withdrawing into a “parallel” society , out of the mainstream country and its bedrock foundations, practising Sharia etc within the group. The organizers of these movements are ,as usual, some unpronounceable Arabic names al-xxxxxx-xxxxxx.

    Now Canada (as wella s US) are worried that with all the focus on militant extremists, they missed this, which potentially can be more damaging (segregated societies and old lynching back) and creating pool of Jehadis for violent attacks.

    Stay tuned

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    This is organized by Muslim Brotherhood and hizb-ut-tahrir (long live arabic language!).

    Canadian intelligence and their National Threaat Center have identified this parallel society drive as a major national security issue.

    It is all over in Canadian newspapers, originally brought out by National Post/AFP.

    Google ‘parallel muslim society in Canada’ and you shall find!

    Is Islamic terrorism on the wane?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    I coined the word Soft terrorists for people like Zia, Bobby and Ravi. The ideological base of Islamic terrorism is far more dangerous than the real terrorists but left and liberals continue to live in fools paradise.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    All this heavy stuff is making me nostalgic.

    Enjoy this but please do not ask for translation. Poetry is not appreciated by seeking its meaning. Leave that to prose wallas.

    Honton pe kabhi un ke mera naam hi aye
    Aye to sahi, bar sar-e-ilzam hi aye

    Hairan hain labb basta hain, dilgeer hain ghunche
    Khushbu ki zubaani tera paigham hi aye

    Lamhaat mussarat hain tasawwur se gurezaa’n
    Yaad aye hain jab bhi ghum-o-aalaam hi aye

    Taaron se saja lenge raah-e-sheher-e-tamanna
    Maqdoor nahi subha chalo shaam hi aye

    Kya raah badalne ka gila humsafaron se
    Jis rah se chale tere dar-o-baam hi aye

    Thak haar ke bethe hain sar kooye tamanna
    Kaam aye to phir jazba-e-nakaam hi aye

    Baqi na rahe saakh Ada dasht-e-junoo’n ki
    Dil men agar andesha-e-ajnaam hi aye

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Har word kehta hai..ki tu hai Katua..

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, then you limit your audience….

    It fits in with the Arabic logic (just kidding) of the Book.

    (btw I am for compulsory Hindi education through 10th standard.) .

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    My reluctance to provide a translation is actually stated in the original post itself.

    On top of that I feel grossly under qualified to do justice to the mammoth task of translating poetry.

    I feel it more than I understand it.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    This is what Ravi is saying -
    “I lie and lie shamelessly because I come from a religion that sanctions telling lies”

  • http://- Rajeev

    Who is a terrorist?
    The one who uses violent methods to impose his will on others.

    Why Hanuman can not be called a terrorist?
    because he was attacked for destroying the garden. He was only defending himself not imposing his ideology on ravan.

    Why Mohammad can be called terrorist?
    He attacked tribal Arabs because they refused his ideology called Islam. he used every violent method starting from kidnapping to rape to murders to get his way.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    rajeev, mohamed is revered by many . so also hanuman. let them , i mean muslims and secularists make fun of hanuman, that does not mean u make fun of muhamed..then u also get into the sewer.

    fight and argue on points, issues, sides…

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Binoy,
    WHatever I have posted about Mohammad is from Islamic source..no propaganda…These facts have been provided by ex-muslims who could not live under lie called ISLAM..

    I am not insulting Mohammad but posting that has been proven using QUran itself.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @L Mirza, Many thanks , I have now located that article, it is a very pertinent point he makes. I am not tired of quoting Voltaire who said “Literature has taken the rough edges of man. LOT OF PROBLEM IN BIMARU STATES CAN BE ATTRIBUTED TO WHAT VOLTAIRE ALLUDES TO.Here is a cut and paste for the bloggers to enjoy, Jai Ho Nadim Parischa.

    Smokers’ Corner: I come in peace
    Nadeem F. Paracha
    November 14, 2010 (3 days ago)
    By Nadeem F. Paracha

    In the last nine years or so, I am fortunate enough to have been able to travel extensively across much of Europe and Asia. More interesting (nay, alarming), however, is an observation about how rare are non-business or non-pilgrim Pakistani travellers.

    For example, in Europe, if you tell someone that you are a vacationing Pakistani, you are bound to get curious looks. They only know about Pakistanis who have settled there or come only for quick business trips. Every year I find less and less Pakistani travellers on the streets of Europe or even in many Asian countries. The only ones you do see are either those travelling to Dubai or now Malaysia. However, I do come across a number of Indian travellers.

    So it becomes natural for many across Asia and Europe to believe that I must be from India. This does not bother me. But it does bring to light the political and cultural perils of a nation that has just stopped travelling for leaisure.

    Wise men across history have rightly emphasised the need for travel — especially how it enlightens the understanding of a person about the ways of those living outside their social and belief systems; and how this infuses in us an instinctive realisation about the importance of things like plurality and tolerance; and how tiny, rigid and delusional really is the world of an isolationist.

    Of course, over the past many years, it hasn’t been easy for a lot of Pakistanis to acquire visas to a number of countries. Also, the economics has made it tough for most Pakistanis to even think about taking a vacation abroad. This is a cause for concern. I say this because the moment you step into another country, you begin to realise that life can be lived without constantly contemplating the fate of a government or the status of one’s religious beliefs. It happens to me every time I travel.

    The realisation is always about how small and stressed our world has become. We work and then come back and watch or talk politics or religion, and nothing else besides. This can’t be right. The human mind is far too vast to only be cramped with cyclic political gossip (mistaken as political analysis and news), or with the constant, obsessive lashings of faith.

    Raise your head out of your one-dimensionally contemplative navels, and you will notice how fast things like music, literature, sport, theatre, et al, are vanishing from our list of things to do and enjoy in Pakistan. There is no doubt about the gigantic economic and political problems we as a nation face. But think about it. Go through histories of some of the most powerful reform movements and revolutions and it is clear that none of these were complete without hefty cultural contributions made to these movements by poets, playwrights, musicians, painters, even sportsmen/women.

    Our whole perspective on life, or more so, about what needs to be done has unfortunately shrunk to such an extent that all we are left with is a constant need to make lofty moral and faith-based judgments and denunciations, believing that ‘positive’ change can only come through ‘danda’, militaristic politics, or some impalpable form of religious order.

    That’s all we talk about now. Faith and what gets passed these days as politics. Everything else has become unessential. It seems all of us have become myopic political animals with a narrow understanding of politics, something which now colours our understanding of the faith as well. We’ve forgotten where politics ends and faith begins.
    We crave for reform, change and sometimes even revolution, and yet we have failed to understand that religion and politics alone can’t achieve these. And if and when they do, such a change or revolution will lack sympathy or admiration of what makes a civilisation thrive as an enlightened, cultured people.

    Whenever I travel now, I look forward to meeting people who are not always judging me through their religious biases or figuring out where I stand politically. That can be a problem if you are a Pakistani, though. Because then all they want to talk to you about is Islam. But I don’t. I want to talk about music, sports, food, drink and art — subjects one rarely gets to talk about in Pakistan these days.

    So what do I do? Let them call me an Indian? Sure, but then all they want to talk about is Bollywood and the IT! Don’t know much about that, I’m afraid. So this time when I went travelling, I decided to introduce myself as a citizen of Surinam!

    I got this idea way back in 2003, when, while travelling across Europe I got talking to an Indian taxi driver. From English he swiftly switched to Hindi when I told him that I was from Pakistan. I asked him from where in India he was, and he shocked me by saying that he wasn’t from India at all. ‘I am from Surinam!’ he proudly announced.

    As it turns out, Surinam, a small country in the Caribbean, has a huge Indian population. So this time that’s what I told people: I was from Surinam. And lo and behold, I got what I wanted — lots of discussions about fishing, hurricanes, beaches and drinks. Absolutely nothing on religion or politics. A fantastic time I had.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    I read Nadeem F. Paracha regularly and I am really surprised why there is no fatwa against him. He is somebody whom we need in India badly. All India has are Gupta/Mehta/Sharma/Sardesai/Roy and obviously Sanghvi…truly all of thme sellouts.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Interesting.. I do have Pakistani friends who tell me that they say they are Indians if somebody asks them about where they immigrated from. (so as not to talk about terrorism, jehad, backstabbing of pak army, double dealings, madrasa etc etc etc)

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Shan

    Yes, this is the article I mentioned.

    The reason I referred this to you is based on a discussion we had in one of the blogs few weeks ago. You asked me the reason for backwardness, rigidity etc in the Muslim sect and how it can be changed. One of the issues/reasons I mentioned (based on my perspective) was the paucity of books, arts etc coming from the Muslim world; and relating to Indian Muslims, I said there is a disproportional dearth in published works by Muslisms both in regional languages as well as in Hindi . The reasons are many and I alluded to them., going bck to the times of al Gazelli and the mongolian invasion of Baghdad

    So when I read this article I thought I should refer this to you; because Nadeem reinforces what I have been thinking.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Post script: Because i live in UK , it is the empire come home unlike one geezer from Delhi. I have actually met and interacted with a nurse called Yasmin , she was from Surinam. she may be muslim , but i felt special affinity because we both hail from BIHAR. If only one can undo all the wrongs of the “raw sewage of hell” (you know whom i am referring to) , and all Indians become one amorphous mass celebrating every religious festival , yet beleiving in none , nobody can us hindu nor can they call us muslims , because we will not satisfy their inclusion criteria , WE ARE REBORN AS JUST INDIAN

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    While hypocrites are happily quoting parchia, who as a patriotic pakistani, is showing the mirror to the pakistani society, they missed when a brilliant article, showing the nuttiness of the hindutva brigade was published by Naqvi. Of course “patriotic indians” hate naqvi as all “patriotic pakistanis” hate Parachia…

    http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/15/hitler-was-a-cartoonist-s-delight-but-that-s-hardly-funny.html

    “Mr Sudarshan was asked if India should go to war with Pakistan over the Mumbai carnage. He said war should be the last option because it won’t stop there. He also said when “Aasuri powers” start dominating the planet there is no other way but war.”

    Replace Asura by Kafir.. and you have the exact parallel to some islamic nuts view of the world…..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    As a part of the Patriotic brigade- may I just say that I do not hate Jawed Naqvi- he has a POV, like you do! He is opinionated, he is biased and he aims and shoots- he is not dull and boring, that is why people read him- to get provoked.
    Sudarshan is a fruitcase. Ignore him.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, would you be slightly more explicit at what are you getting at , hypocrites are those whose heart bleeds but hands dont come forward for the handshake.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,
    hypocrites are those who have one standard for the other, and another for the self…

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    It is not just replacing the word. You have to replace and then kill.

    Secularists delight in equivocating the motivated jehadi killing machines on the other side of the border with the crazies (may be killing too, but at a cottge industry scale) on this side of the border – sudarshan = hafees zaeed; pak army = Indian army, ISi = RAW.

    As 11/26 was unfolding, these guys were first (amny rushing) to publish why India deserves this – arundhati wrote about the attacks as one that will force India to make a choice between “justice” and civil war. The “impartial kulaguru” of pro muslim Indian secularists, Martha Nassbaum , rushed to Los Angeles Times to write about the “terrible designs of Hindu right”. I do not remeber what Naqvi wrote, but has to be in these lines. The same people who always complain about putting all Muslims in one box, decided to put all Indian Muslims in one box, because what happened in Mumbai was the payment for a “just cause” for these apologists.

    None of them apologized for what they wrote when the final details came out. Even worse, for secularists who always look for cause, none of them apologized for attributing this carnage to Indian Muslims.

    None of them spoke for the thousands of Hindi speaking Biharis who were massacred by Assamese Muslims in 2003. None- Zilch. Especially Martha and arundhati. No human rights abuse there.

    Naqvi, the joker of a journalist, writes about the info he obtrained fourth hand about a conversation seventy years ago, where Pandit Nehru arranged for the killing of Mahathmaji. More than BJP or Sangh Pariwar, it is people like NAqvi who want Golwalker to live on; because we will not need secularists if Golwalker dies.

    Obviously the frucking Naqvi does not ahve anything bad to write to day – not about the 700 million living below 10 paise per day, not about the glaring income disparities, not about the lack of ingenuity among Indian scientists, not about Ayodhya, not about the abuse of adivasis, not about the dismal failings of Indian democracy, not about the pitiable plight of Dalits, et al. So, he has to invent something, bring in alleged conversations 70 years ago and then connect the dots.

    At the end of the day, what Sudarshan said about attacking Pakistan on 11/26, is much more credible and posed argument than the apologists who collectively blamed the Indian polity and indirectly blamed (a victims’ revenge) Indian Muslims. Sudarshan did not say Indian Muslims did this.

    So is life..

    btw, the only good thing Naqvi has written about India (as far as I know) was a column he did about the last parliamenatry elections. He was all praise for the organization, participation, and the relative peace and outwardly “corruption free” process of teh Indian elections.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Well, the Bihari story is not sexy…it is like the pandit story of Kashmir..who weeps for Pandits..Generations of Biharis lived in assam. Hundreds got killed..hundred thousand gets dispalced.. No Citizen tribunals. No Arundhati..No Marthas. Tough luck!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @S Singh, yeah , dont expect Bobby et al to pay much attention , for he is more busy with RSS and the doomsday scenario

  • shan

    @Bobby, this is from that article
    With India’s economic liberalisation, the more callous business tycoons have found in it a useful ally. They have increasingly used its street-fighting capacity to break up the country’s traditional trade unions.
    I beleive you know that at the time of writing this article , there still exists a state called WEST BENGAL, with which you may some ties. In this state there lives a MONSTER called CITU. In recorded history of west bengal , no RSS or its sidekicks been able to make it even bat its eyelids , let alone damaging it.
    You are suffering from COMPULSIVE OBSESSIVE NEUROSIS, the main symptomp is THOUGHT INTRUSION. The thought of RSS gets into your mind and you despite your best effeorts cannot drive itaway. These people incerdibly are fully aware that this is contrary to logic , yet they cant drive the thought away , because the more they do , the more vigorously the thought jarrs them . ONLY RELEASE from this STRESS is let release this panic , by gorging on these RSS obseessed articles.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,

    Your lack of knowledge about history, does not mean that facts are not facts. Shiv sena was indeed used by the Congress, to destroy trade unions, and kill their leaders. Henry Ford was a great admirer of Hitler, just as the captains of Indian industry are great admirers of Modi….. In fact one of the main reasons for the rise of religious fundamentalism, in India and abroad, is the collapse of leftist movements the world over…. Be it in Pakistan, in Palestine, in the US, Iran, and in India.

    The corporate world, sees in the religious fundamentalists, a common enemy – the secular leftist opposition.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , a simple question what party has been in your favourite west bengal for last thirty yeras and your INSPIRATION , the CITU (cant get any more left than that) what PROSPERITY it has brought to west bengal. so that every time a girl is rescued from some brothel in Bombay(yes Bombay , not Mumbai) surprise surprise where did they come from 24 parganas or purulia or midnapore. SS Ray before his death when all his organs were failing made a telling remark “Amar Sorirey Citu Dhukechey” for non bengali readers that is CITU has entered my body.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,

    Again lack of understanding of concepts and ideas on your part. Communist rulers in Soviet union or Bengal is not what is meant by leftist movements. These are centralized power structures, like any other nation state, or corporate power structure. Hierarchical power structures is the problem…. Free association of people, peoples movements, workers solidarity movements etc is what is meant by leftist movements…

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Left’s romance with radical Islam is a continuation of the left’s love affair with the communist totalitarians of the 20th century ..Just as thy were drawn to the killing machines of Stalin, Mao, pol pot, so too this new attachment to radical islam. Both radical Islam and radical left possess a profound hatred for systems that recognizes individual achievement. Both want a new world order -leftis in the form of a classless communist society, and Islamists in the form of a caliphate ruled by sharia law. To achieve their gols both are willing to “wipe the slate (and state) clean’ by means of limitless carnage, with the ultimate goal of erecting their utopia upon the ruins and deaths and killings..

    S Singh Reply:

    So, now we have a new description on leftist movement- the leftist movements failed because at the end of the day they did not address basic needs. Today China creates more billionaires in a month than what US creates in years. So much for leftist movement.

    and you are absolutely wrong that fundamentalists and corp are in collusion. What is happening worldwide is the cooption/collusion between leftist movements and Jehadism.

    “free association of people–workers soliudarity movements…non hirarchical shii”… are we all in this planet or yet to be invented planet

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    1. I agree that the leftist movements (even in the imperfect state they find themselves in) have been largely secular and have worked to oppose forces of radical religiosity.
    2. Yes, your point about Congress using Shiv Sena to break up trade unions in Mumbai is correct.
    3. Yes, Henry Ford was a known Jew-hater and an admirer of Hitler. Corollary fact- all the iconic German companies of today who were in existence during the 3rd Reich had extremely unsavoury records- manufacturing the poison gas that was used in the gas chambers for instance.
    Having said that the causation argument advanced by you does not hold- that the decline in left as led to the rise in religious fundamentalism. Co-incidence, at best correlation. Not causation; no sir!
    Secondly, all you need to do is to visit the CPIML website (this is my revenge for making me visit the RSS website some months back :-) ) and see their “line”. They are building common causes among Dalits, Muslims, workers, peasants, Kashmiris and what have you.
    At best this is naivety. At worst, this is dangerous.
    One form of extremism is not necessarily better than another.
    And, since we sparred many months back, I have had time to understand the basics of anarcho-synidcalism. So, I may not agree, but I know where you are coming from.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    ” I agree that the leftist movements (even in the imperfect state they find themselves in) have been largely secular and have worked to oppose forces of radical religiosity”
    Whoever has written the above lines must have been on a TRIP after taking LSD or local ganza.(Cannabis Indica).
    How about Tasleema Nasreen hounded out of calcutta /india, How about British labour parties STONY SILENCE on his fatwa , and the people to stand up for him (well if not him then atleast his security costing millions of pounds in tax payers money. WAKEY WAKEY

  • Bobby

    @Ashish,

    I found this from wikisource… I have to say, much of it is gibberish, much plain nonsense, some of it might be metaphrically true….but definitely not literally… He does seem to at least hint that many of hinduism’s ideas are being rediscovered or will be dicovered by science….

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Addresses_at_The_Parliament_of_Religions/Paper_on_Hinduism

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Same as Quran and hadith..full of BS..

    I guess Vivekananda was still better than Mohammad because he did not indulge in loot, murder, rape etc.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    did not have time for more than a hurried perusal – that too only for this link; others will probably have to wait when I have more time; which, in my case, may even be never.
    But, I could not find an explicit Vedanta contains Science kind of logic in my perusal. And, I honestly would have been surprised if I did.
    From what I know, he was a man extremely modern in outlook; very questioning of social practices and urging reform. But, no man can be totally divorced from the times he lived in and the education he received.
    I personally think if he was a iconoclast in the mould of Derozio, his impact would have been shortlived. See, Rammohan Roy’s impact was limited to a very small elitist sub-section as well- how many Brahmos do we know that exist? But, Vivekananda’s appeal and his impact continues to transcend generations.
    Of course, taking a point you made elsewhere, Newton beileved in God and the Bible- that does not, should not prove anything about the stories in the Bible or indeed the existence of God. Similarly, we should accept Vivekananda as a product of his age, who thought beyond “today” and inspite of his beliefs in God, Vedanta and the ultimate superiority of the way of life of the Hindus did a lot of good in the social spehere and had a huge role in the modernization of the Hindu society.
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The RK Mission schools produce top class scholars, have branches in Adivasi areas – with sterling results. And, funnily among the 10 odd alumni of the school I have met, most are agnostics. This probably shows the monks of the order have relentlessly pushed modernity in the curriculum and have not prescribed the collected works of Vivekananda as essential reading!
    This is THE reason, I do not care whether Muhammad had good qualities or bad qualities. What I do care about is the “immutability principle” that Muslims seem to be governed by. I think once they let go of the immutability principle, they will discover, as Hindus, Christians and other religion followers are discovering- that beyong some basic moral lessons like love thy neighbour and don’t steal or lie- we can pretty much ignore religion and get on with the joy of living.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    by the way, I have no problems with vivekananda, given his hindu background, and his limited exposure to science, and the time and place where he lived, his beleif in many of the vedantic nonsense is understandable. If it is true that he was a intellegent and questioning person, then I am sure that had he born today he would have realized all this vedantic upanishadic knowledge is nonsense.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, Vivekanada was one of the great thinkers of twentieth century, it is for these people we are BLABBERING on the net , otherwise we would have like phillipines ALL CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY , BARRING MUSLIMS. Here is a cut and paste , hopefully I do not need to tell you who Nicolas Tesla was.
    Nikola Tesla used ancient Sanskrit terminology in his descriptions of natural phenomena. As early as 1891 Tesla described the universe as a kinetic system filled with energy which could be harnessed at any location. His concepts during the following years were greatly influenced by the teachings of Swami Vivekananda. Swami Vivekananda was the first of a succession of eastern yogi’s who brought Vedic philosophy and religion to the west. After meeting the Swami and after continued study of the Eastern view of the mechanisms driving the material world, Tesla began using the Sanskrit words Akasha, Prana, and the concept of a luminiferous ether to describe the source, existence and construction of matter. This paper will trace the development of Tesla’s understanding of Vedic Science, his correspondence with Lord Kelvin concerning these matters, and the relation between Tesla and Walter Russell and other turn of the century scientists concerning advanced understanding of physics. Finally, after being obscured for many years, the author will give a description of what he believes is the the pre-requisite for the free energy systems envisioned by Tesla.

    Tesla’s Earler Description of the Physical Universe

    By the year 1891, Nikola Tesla had invented many useful devices. These included a system of arc lighting (1886), the alternating current motor, power generation and transmission systems (1888), systems of electrical conversion and distribution by oscillatory discharges (1889), and a generator of high frequency currents (1890), to name a few. The most well known patent centers around an inspiration that occurred while walking with a friend in a park in Budapest, Hungry. It was while observing the sunset that Tesla had a vision of how rotating electromagnetic fields could be used in a new form of electric motor. his led to the well known system of alternating current power distribution. In 1891 however, Tesla patented what one day may become his most famous invention. It is the basis for the wireless transmission of electrical power and is know as the Tesla Coil Transformer. It was during this year that Tesla made the following comments during a speech before the American Institute of Electrical Engineers:

    “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point in the universe. This idea is not novel… We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians… Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic.? If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic – and this we know it is, for certain – then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.” [1]

    This description of the physical mechanisms of the universe was given before Tesla became familiar with the Vedic science of the eastern Nations of India, Tibet, and Nepal. This science was first popualized in the United States and the west during the three year visit of Swami Vivekananda.
    There are words in Sanskrit that describe concepts totally foreign to the western mind. Single words may require a full paragraph for translation into english. Having studied Sanskrit for a brief period during the late 70’s, it finally occurred to this writer that Tesla’s use of Vedic terminology could provide a key to understanding his view of electromagnetism and the nature of the universe. But where did Tesla learn Vedic concepts and Sanskrit terminology? A review of the well known biographies by Cheney, Hunt and Draper, and O’Neil [3], [4], [5], reveal no mention of Tesla’s knowledge of Sanskrit. O’Neal however includes the following excerpt from an unpublished article called Man’s Greatest Achievement:

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    NIklas tesla may have done many things, but that does not mean he was being nutty when he talks about the BS you post.. Even Newton believed in Christ and the Bible. So does that prove Bible is right?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    However all muslims like you who are educated consider Quran the absolute truth..Do you think Quran is pile of garbage just like vedas and bible? I Do.

  • Bobby

    more BS from the great man

    “http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Raja-Yoga/Preface”

    and more of the same nonsense…..

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_1/Raja-Yoga

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Totally agree with you..It is very similar to Quranic nonsense…

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    “Upsides in this war against terror : Islamist terrorism does not enjoy the support of a single regime in countries they have roots in.”

    Is not Pakistan an Islamic Republic? How was Kasab funded? From where money comes to stone pelting freedom fighters in Kashmir? For that matter, how are any international terror plots funded? If security agencies have managed to foil terror plots, can we say, “terrorism has become manageable now”? If we see one more Mumbai (in any place of the world) with just one security
    failure, should we say “terrorism is back”? (Has it gone at first place?) How to “manage” with a threat called “terror”? (In the case of Ayodhya or Cauvery, we at least know when to expect flares. Here anytime, any place).

    “Downside : An elusive end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict means the “cause” remains alive.”

    It was not the real cause at the first place, to give any solution. History of Palestinian problem is several decades old. It had not revoked Muslims living in other region. The camps set up in Af-Pak border in past two decades and the hate speeches there in, have trained a human mind back to be tribal with the name of a religion. They have opened a bottle where a wild monster was sealed. We don’t know, how to put him back. Instead we are seeing, more and more people becoming its preys like Muslim youth of Kerala, Mangalore getting trained in Kashmir. Mixing up religion in everything, be it our cultural practices or territorial dispute.

    War on Terror:

    I don’t know how a war could be waged against a fear(a feel). An ideology has to be countered with counter ideologies “within”. We hardly witness such debate inside the community. Instead the people have limited themselves to, explaining others about how peaceful Islam is (I never saw Zia encouraging debates within the community) or how other religions also have bad elements etc(Yes, Devadasi system is present in Hinduism. There are efforts to eradicate it, instead of searching where else this evil is present). First reformation in the Islam could have been praying Allah in the language, which common people would understand. (I know people will bring Vedas now. How many of us(/Hindus) use Vedic hymns to pray our god? It is the bhajans of Bhakti Pant in our local language, we pray our God with). This direct contact with God(/his message) will reduce the dependency of common Muslim man to his Maulvi.

    As far others (outside religion) concerned, America is treating ideology and territory both are one and the same (or that’s what it seems, by its strategy of Iraq invasion on its war on Terror). I do not know how ideology can be fought and conquered like a territory.

    I feel strategies have to be reversed to make the difference. There has to more aggressiveness and debate within the community and patience and resilience from outside. Both are counter related. If first party does not act, the second party will not sit and watch patiently. If second party gets aggressive, first one will not act, instead become defensive. When I compare the amount of space generated by a moderate Muslim’s voice (like Mirza, Shoeb) and replies towards it to the space consumed by Ram Autar/Ravi and replies towards them, it is difficult to be optimistic.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Vinay-
    good points. The subject was “Islamic terror — where are we now” ..Zia concluded it is on the wane. Mny contributors state dthere is nothing called Islamic terrorism. Many said it is comparable to other types of terrorism that happpened zillions of moons ago. Many, in the Indian context said RSS terrorism is worse than Islamic Terrorism. Many said Pakistan is a noble country . Many said Muslims are so pious that they just cannot do these criminal acts.

    Brace for the facts and what wiull happen. Islamic Terrorism is on the rise worldwide, the recent report from Canada points to another disturbing development, and they will get dirty nukes and explode everywhere. These nihilists want to go back to the arabia of the prophet. And they will kill lot of Msulims in the process, as we have seen in Pakistan. In addition there is the millenial shia-siunni cr—, and u see all the gulf countries now lined up against Iran (they rather have US bomb Iran rather than Iran get a bomb).

    More plots are uncovered because intelligence agencies are working ahrd and together. But as they say here in US, the terrorists need to be correct only once, where as intelligence guys have to be correct always.

    The funny and sad situation is that these apologists will be the first ones these Nihilists will kill after they have bombed all over and taken over. It has happened in all ‘revolutions”.

    My advice and warning to my fellow Indians in India is – US is quite worried about sleeper cells and home grown second generation Muslim Jehadis, their intelligence report says these guys are in India too, the web jehadi buzz is all about the nexus between US/India/israel and how it is denying the aspirations of a Moroccan boy, …..

    These Jehadis want strong Caliphs to lead them; and hence know only the language of power. So, US has to continue drones and whatever. and bomb Pakistan Jehadi manufacturing centers after denuking the country.

    All be vigilant.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    No Posts from Ravi today..means he is Bakriding… ;)

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    looks like that….and his buddy crazy guy ram atwar also and the jungal mandal

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Me and my Bacha are deeply involved in BachaBazi. Don’t wait for us, we may be getting married soon.

    Yours

    Tailbani from Karachi

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    take care… be safe…MISS YOU!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Pl. do not come back..You are better doing Bachabazi..

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is an article on OIC highest scientific body. This should enthrall people like Bobby, Ravi, Azhar and Mohd. Autar. It is a must read for scientific minds..

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268007
    View From Pakistan
    Peddling Pseudo Science
    Why are prominent scientists spreading paranoia in Pakistan that the USA may be triggering earthquakes globally, and could also have caused the catastrophic floods in Pakistan?
    Pervez Hoodbhoy PRINT Share COMMENTS

    Comstech is the Organization of Islamic Countries’ highest scientific body. It has received millions of dollars from OIC countries, including Pakistan. Comstech’s opulent headquarters are located on Constitution Avenue in Islamabad. It has been headed by Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman since 1996. Although its performance has been consistently mediocre, the organization has now descended to an all-time low.

    Recently Dr. Rahman published an eye-popping article entitled The wondrous world of science (Dawn, 17-10-2010). The article claims that a physics research project, based in Alaska, may have been used by the United States to trigger earthquakes globally, and could also have caused the catastrophic floods in Pakistan. Dr. Rahman concludes with a chilling question: “Is the HAARP then, a harmless research tool – or a weapon of mass destruction far more lethal than nuclear weapons? We may never know.”

    Given Dr. Rahman’s prominent place in Pakistani science, and that he is Fellow of the Royal Society, one must consider seriously his claim that HAARP can cause earthquakes and floods. But even the briefest examination makes clear his claims make no scientific sense.

    HAARP stands for High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. Its website states it is a research program run by the University of Alaska in collaboration with various US colleges and universities. If HAARP is a secret military project conceived by evil and diabolical minds, it is hard to see why visitors, including foreign nationals, are said to be allowed on site. The website says that the last open house was on July 17, 2010.

    At least on the face of things, HAARP does not have the trappings of an American secret weapons facility. (Google Earth, which I used, blacks these out.) Readers will see a field of antennas, as well as some cars and two ordinary looking buildings. No security barriers are visible. This does not appear to be a classified project.

    But, of course, appearances can be deceptive. So let us simply use common sense and physics. Assume therefore that the power of the transmitters is many times that declared on the website (3.6MW). This may mean HAARP could potentially disrupt radio communications during war, or blind incoming missiles. But science cannot accept Dr. Rahman’s claim that “It (HAARP) may also affect plate tectonics causing earthquakes, floods through torrential rains and trigger tsunamis.”

    Does the good doctor believe in magic and demons? How else can massive tectonic plates be moved by radio waves? Will HAARP tickle a sleeping subterranean monster that awakes and sets off earthquakes? This kind of thinking was what irate and ignorant village mullahs used after the 2005 Pakistani earthquake. They blamed cable television, after which followers smashed thousands of television sets.

    Weather change simply cannot be caused by HAARP’s radio waves. The effects of a puny 3.6MW radio transmitter on the ionosphere can only be detected with sensitive instruments. Even these are almost completely washed out by a constant stream of charged particles from the sun that hit the earth during daytime. To see HAARP’s effects would be like trying to see a candle a mile away in blazing sunlight.

    Today, even the most powerful lasers and radios are millions of times weaker than needed to heat sizeable portions of the ionosphere. (Of course, producing hotspots in tiny volumes anywhere is not a problem, but these have zero effect on the weather or earthquakes.) Perhaps in some future century a laser might be able to do this job.

    Dr. Rahman says he is uncertain if HAARP could equal a nuclear weapon or perhaps be even more destructive. But if it is actually the super-weapon that he alleges, then the laws of physics will have to be overturned. Physicists will have the sad task of unlearning all that they know and burning their useless books. With a heavy heart, I shall return all my physics degrees.

    Scientists sometimes disagree – this is how scientific disputes are resolved. But it is worth asking if at least some genuine scientists support Dr. Rahman’s claims. He provides no examples. Instead, he quotes President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, who accused the US of causing the Haiti earthquake. While I admire Chavez for standing up to political bullying by the US, I am not sure he knows anything about plate tectonics. In fact, his claim caused seismologists to crack up with laughter.

    Dr. Rahman also quotes a 1999 committee of the European Union Parliament that called for HAARP to be examined by an international independent body. I do not know if any of the committee members were scientists. But 11 years later, the EU has not called for further investigation, nor alleged that HAARP has caused natural disasters.

    The good doctor enthusiastically endorses the statements of Dr. Nick Begich, one of HAARP’s most vocal critics, and refers to him reverentially as a scientist. But Begich’s website says that he obtained a doctorate in traditional medicine from The Open International University for Complementary Medicines in 1994. In other words Begich is not a scientist, but a homeopath who obtained a mail order degree.

    Yet another quoted “authority” is the arch conspiracy theorist, Michel Chossudovsky, a retired professor of economics in Ottawa. In Dr. Rahman’s pantheon of “experts”, none has published a scientific paper in a reputable science journal that demonstrates a connection between ionospheric physics and any weather or subterranean phenomenon. In short, Dr. Rahman’s claims about HAARP are based on pseudo-science promoted by conspiracy theorists who blame America for all grief in the world.

    Once science loses its objectivity and becomes enslaved to any kind of ideology or political opinion, it becomes useless. Quack science does not just cost money. It also confuses people, engages them in bizarre conspiracy theories, and decreases society’s collective ability to make sensible decisions. One must therefore seriously question whether a pseudo-science organization like Comstech deserves lavish funding from poor Pakistanis. We have better things to spend our money on. As for the world of science: it will not even notice Comstech’s demise.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Pervez Hoodbhoy teaches physics at Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @ nutty Rajeev,

    I never understand the point of posting articles where honest pakistanis write for their audience to better their society… Dr Hoodbhoy is a hero. I have met him when he visited the research institute where i work, for his India tour as part of the Kalinga award he received.

    Incidentally he also writes about the dangers of vedic science and its propagation by the hindutva morons. You conveniently skipped such articles did u not?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Nutty Jehadi Bobby,
    Unlike you, I am very critical of Hinduism as a whole. The only thing that sets hinduism apart from moronic semitic faith is that it has ability to reform, absorb insults and evolve.

    You are using abuse for me because I called Quran bogus..that is the problem with your kind of secularist. For you secularism means, trash Indian faiths and keep defending dumb semitic faiths especially Islam.

    I have never said that Vedas/Upanishad are epitome of knowledge because they are not. Can you trash Quran in same way? NO…because the core-jehadi inside you will suppress voice of reason.

    Learn to debate without calling names because I can make you run if you want to gao that route..

    First be honest and declare that you are a hardcore muslim who has problem with hindus..and then post your venom..Hiding behind kafir name will not make your arguements neutral. Anyone can make out from your posts that you are one of those western-dressed Jihadi (such like Atta) who is itching to attack kafir world.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    “”Learn to debate without calling names because I can make you run if you want to gao that route..”"

    Yaar Yes Yes

    Bobby Reply:

    “First be honest and declare that you are a hardcore muslim who has problem with hindus..and then post your venom..Hiding behind kafir name will not make your arguements neutral. Anyone can make out from your posts that you are one of those western-dressed Jihadi (such like Atta) who is itching to attack kafir world.”

    what a loser!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Two pro-terrorist fundos agreeing..is it a surprise?
    both these losers are waiting for islam to dominate the planet…

    truly losers of highest order..

  • Binoy Hegde

    Islamic terrorism on the wane!!1 hohoho

    Today’s reuter reports from germany:

    Geramany (Minister thomas De MAziierie) says they have credible information that Islamic militants re palnning attacks in the next two weeks and they have increased security at potential targets. “The security situation is going to become more serious. we have concrete indications of a series of attacks planned for the end of November” said Mazieiirie, the interior minister.

    Why ? oh Why?

    Anybody kleeping score — is it on the wane???

    [Reply]

  • http://www.seo530.com รับทำ seo

    good molly They Call Me Muslim , i read your blog , this a nice blog and perfect. Good for everyone. a lot of India and Ayodhya verdict content. i will plan to read and comment your website.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Bobby , an …….man’s word is his deal I promised to bring to this site about the conversation between tagore and Einstein , (Tagore , myriad minded man , Andrew Robinson , page295, the annotation is for the green eyed salesman from delhi)
    Einstein:The mind acknowledges realities outside of it independent of it . for instance nobody may be in the house , yet that table remains where it is .
    Tagore: Yes it remains outside the individuals mind, but not the universal mind. the table is that which is perceptible by some of consciousness we possess
    Einstein:If nobody were in the house , the table would exist all the same, but that is already illegitamate from your point of view, because we cannot explain what it means, that the table is there , independently of us. Our natural pointof view in regard to the existenceof truth apart from humanity cannot be explained or proved, but it is abeleif nobody can lack-not even primitive beings.we attribute to truth a superhuman objectivity.It is indispensable for us -this reality which is independendent of our existence and our experienceand our mind-though we cannot say what it means.
    Tagore:In any case if there be any truth absolutely unrelated to humanity , then for us it is absolutely non-existing………….

    But equally true is that .Einstein’s basic view of subatomic nature has been abandoned by most quantum physicist , who have adopted a position that bears CONSIDERABLE RESEMBLANCE to the one taken by tagore.

    bullshitting is not in my nature , after all I deal with human lives(sorry for being pompous)

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Secularists and “Muslims always right” crowd go bananas because no scientist ever gets inspired by Quran, no artist ever gets inspired by Quran, no philosopher ever gets inspired by Quran.

    When Einsten says “eall one wants to know about the universe is in Bhagavad Gita, everything else is superfluous”, or when the man who led the atom bomb project, Openheimer, says to his brother after the explosion “I am become the time, the destroyer of the worlds” quoting Gita, and when Thoreau and Emersona nd Huxley all talks about the inspiration… secularists get in a bind .. they cannot discard Einstein, Thoreau, Openheimer. and they want to discredit Bhagavad Gita ….

    But they can sure discredit (because Indians do not care) Vivekanada, (that useless man) Adi Sankara (who killed Jains—we have heard that), Aurbindo. (crackpot)..

    Thinking about this, is there a connection between not having a positive inspiration (or having a negatrive inspiration) from the Holy Quran and terrorism? I have never heard about any great person saying I got inspiration from Quran..Contrary to this, many great people have said “Jesus ‘ message was with me ” or the verse in Bhagavad Gita” Budha’s noble path….

    Oh why why why not??/

    You get the picture

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,

    I will say this for the final time… Quantum physics has nothing to do with Vedic mumbojumbo… I dont give a damn what tagore has to say…

    The position of Einstein vis-a-vis Quantum Physics was a wrong… but the person who was right, was not Tagore… it was Neils Bohr. Nobody in science gives a dam what Tagore thought, atleast about QP. Yes there is a celebrated debate between Einstein and Bohr…. and its been settled that BOhr was right… but it has NOTHING to do with vedic BS. SO I am not going to get into any debate with you on this any further.

    “When Einsten says “eall one wants to know about the universe is in Bhagavad Gita, everything else is superfluous””

    Einstein wold never have said that. The Bhagvad Gita has as much to do with the universe as the Quran has.

    Yes Openheimer was influenced by the Gita. In a negative way…. As he confessed later, it was the teachings of the Gita, which made him detached from the horrors of the bomb and what it was going to be used for… by recalling the words of the Gita… That whatever he is doing is merely his duty… and he should do it in a detached manner,… NOT BOTHERING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES…. WHICH WAS THE DEATH OF MILLIONS OF JAPANESE…. Almost the same influence the Quranic verse had on the 9/11 terrrorists….

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    “BG has as much …Quran”… may be, but he did not quote Quran. For that matter, as
    Mr Hegde pointd out (which is inteersting; I hope somebody does a PhD reserach on this subject!) nobody has quoted Quran other than the Jehadis as a part of their killing ritual.

    Leftist secularists are in denial. Or they think the universe should behave one way. “He could not have said that. Muslims could not have done that. (But Hindus and Indians can always do it). Workers who make decisions and form their own loacl operation will do better than managed enterprises..Idea of nation-sate is bad, by the way ISlam also does not have nation-state…..”

    Now Openheimer is a worse killer (millions) than Jehadis, and you know why –because of Bhagavad Gita. Zaeed looks better every day!

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    First, equating Bhagat Singh with an Islamist Jihadi in Kashmir:
    (Well, no doubt their freedom fight was radical. But it included people from different region (Bhagat Singh – Lahore, Chandra Shekhar Azad – Kashmir, Suchindra Bhakshi/Batukeshwar Dutt – Bengali and Ram Prasad Bismil – UP). It included people from different religion (The song “Sarfaroshi ki Tamanna” was written by Bismil Azimabadi, adopted by Ram Prasad Bismil. Ram Prasad and Ashfaqulla Khan died on the same day, in different jails). More than anything, liberation of India was their end point.
    When a Muslim Jihadi fights for Kashmir, Independent Kashmir cannot not be the end product. If that is so, there should not have been bomb blasts in Pak or any muslim countries. The fight will continue for pure, purer … purest.)

    Next, quote a scientist (Oppenheimer), who was neither a practicing Hindu nor prayed in any temples but used(/lifted) some verse(/idea) from Indian Philosophy(/Geeta) to cover up his conscience. Compare it to 9/11 terrrorists, who get brainwashed by a Mosque, which preached a fundamentalist militant version of Sunni Islam. (What next? Geeta inspired him to make a bomb?)

    Finally equate RSS to LeT or Al-Quida.

    I wonder whether these anologies will make anyone understand about ideologies behind Islamic terror better.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    “neither practicing hindu nor …”to be read as “who was not a practicing Hindu, but wanted to clear his guilt.”

    ram autar Reply:

    kashmiris are making good money by selling their products at good price to 700000 soldiers.they are getting properous and pray for their stay.we indians are getting fkd in this nautanki.we are paying the bills of this drama.

  • shan

    @Bobby, there was an article in the journal NATURE sometime in the period 2002-2005(I cant precisely remember , but given my track record on this matter on this blog , you can pretty much take it for granted) by a KOSHER scientist from a KOSHER scientific institution INDIAN INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE , BANGALORE. It was about Tipu sultan’s fight with British. He described how the british were in a quandry after hit by the ROCKETS that were pounding on their horses. This was devised by Tipu’s chief forgeman or whatever. This produced such a havoc this was brought to Royal Ordinance in woolwich arsenal(not very far from where I live) to study. The author says that was the forerunner of MISSILES , because all the chemicals used to cause the propulsion , but as the infrastructure wasn’t there India could not devolope it further. Same with the SPECULATION in ancient Hindu Texts, theydidn’t have the infrastructure(read computers , simulation , mathematics etc) so they could not step beyond the concept. THIS CONCEPT IS FAR MORE ESOTERIC THAN OTHER RELIGIOUS TEXTS THAT TALKS ABOUT SEVENTY VIRGINS AND ALSO IF ANYBODY LEAVES THE FOLD WILL BE ROASTED ALIVE. Now for some cut and paste
    Perhaps one of the most exciting — and unsettling — concepts in modern cosmology is the theory that we inhabit a parallel universe. “There are vibrations of different universes right here, right now. We’re just not in tune with them. There are probably other parallel universes in our living room — this is modern physics. This is the modern interpretation of quantum theory, that many worlds represent reality,” says Michio Kaku, professor of theoretical physics at New York University and author of Parallel Worlds: A Journey Through Creation, Higher Dimensions, and the Future of the Cosmos.
    In his best-selling series Cosmos, renowned astronomer Carl Sagan reflected on the parallels between modern cosmology and Hindu philosophy, noting: “Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, no doubt, by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology .… There is the deep and the appealing notion that the universe is but the dream of the god who after a 100 Brahma years dissolves himself into a dreamless sleep and the universe dissolves with him until after another Brahma century he starts recomposes himself and begins again the dream, the great cosmic lotus dream. Meanwhile, elsewhere there are an infinite number of other universes each with its own god dreaming the cosmic dream.”

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Shan,

    A scientist sometimes might take refuge in philosophy to relieve his mental stress. He might not be as articulate as an conventional philosopher, so he might not win a debate with them. But that would not make a philosopher to be a better scientist than the former. Vivekananda or Tagore might have had reasoning abilities, but that alone would not make them scientists. Scientific temper needs questioning how absolute is the “absolute truth” .

    I would agree with Bobby, scientists did not approve Tagore over Einstein. It was the win of Neil Bohr’s ideas over Einstein. Science is rational because nobody, including Einstein is indispensable. If one makes Vivekananda or Tagore or Hinduism as ultimate, one looses rationality. Yes Hinduism had Sati. It has Devadasi system and there are efforts to eradicate it. We
    know, we have faults. But we are trying to evolve, without looking for someone else, somewhere else practicing same. I would agree with you when you say, Indian ideas (be it metallurgy or Ayurveda) did not have the necessary infrastructure to grow like European Science developed after renaissance, so Indian science lagged behind (Here, we were ruled over and colonized for centuries. The energy is getting released only in last couple of decades). But if you extend it to say
    Hinduism can explain cosmology.. you are going too far.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, neither Tagore or vivekananda has ever asserted that it is their assumption/speculation , all they have done is invoked what was written in those texts. It is the philosophical reasoning that is according to many people has RESONANCE in the higher echelons of theoretical physics , the concepts of which are so abstract that they nearly collide with metaphysics. To point was to give those people its dues , that they were able to think in such a sophisticated matter , rather than the simplistic construct of heaven and hell and day of judgement about which the likes of Bobby has a habit of “looking otherside”

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Sorry typo it will be “looking otherway”

  • L Mirza

    “Islamic Terrorism: Where are we now” –

    Germany is beefing up security next two weeks based on the information that 15 terrorists have escaped the Pak/Aafghan border sanctuary. There was agroup of 30 or so, of which 15 were killed in the drone attacks. Intelligence says the ones who escaped have ended up in Germany and the internet chat indicates an attack is imminent. Hopefully Germany may be able to prevent it

    Is terrorism on decline if more plots have been detected and prevented? What is the right metrics? Do all these (measurements) make any sense because one successful major attack can more than offset for the hundreds of prevented plots?

    There are going to be Islamic terrorist attacks as long as there is a supply of Jehadists – which there are, in plenty, for various reasons, real and manufactured – A few will be catastrophic. huge damage can be done with little money (WTC 9/11 costed only $500,000). there is ample money supply and unlimited supply of Jehadi boys ..

    Has the so called reasons diminished? No. Can all those perceived and real reasons be eliminated — No

    Are “new” reasons/opportunities being created — YES. Mubarek’s son becoming the chief of Egypt definitely will create terrorist attacks (and they will not be hittingh Egypt, it will be US or India or some other country–such is Jehadism!).
    - The splitting of Sudan will create a set of Jehadis.
    - Pakistanis will find new reasons (as if they do not have enough) – the separation movement there will only be stronger; and with a weak economy and feudal systems and dysfunctional govt and a very young population all conditions are perfect for the manufacture of jehadis
    -Al Awlaki’s killing (he is targeted by US) will create new martyrs, may be quite al arge number
    - The deeper penetration of well-funded (from KSA) “political parties” like PFI (reincarnation of SIMI) will create Jehadis from India
    -Any US retaliation to a sleeper cell attack there will create new set of Jehadis
    The list goes on.
    Rather than debating about whether the number is going down or up, countries, including India, will be wiser in protecting borders, effective intelligence gathering, and rapid trial/sentencing.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    also, in the event Iran possesses a bomb (and neither US nor Israel bombs them), Jehadis will just have a field day in Pakistan destroying Shias. Also in SA border.

    However, nobody knows how Shia jehadis will operate if Iran is bombed. Because so far, they have not done any “travelling” jobs; any attack Shias have done so far are very targeted ones against a particular enemy that has violated (Lebanon/Lebanon israel border; or Al Sadr in Baghdad). Shias have not performed “international” terrorism so far.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Americans are making a stupid mistake by lumping Sadam Husain, Osama Laden, Nazrullah all together. Even today they do not understand (or do not want policies) that most of the terror incidents emnate from Sunnis.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is all about Jinn Harnessing from people like Bobby who think Islam is the most
    SHINE-TEE-FICK religion.
    http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiversion/index.php/t67522-100.html

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    He did not say it is shine-tee-fick…He only said it is better than ur frucking 5000 year old rubbish, its book (no plural BOOKS there) better than all other books combined, and its adherents the most peace loving people on earth especially compared to the RSS scums who are bombing all over the world and making life difficult and the world is now afraid of these RSS thugs

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    He did not say it is shine-tee-****..He only said it is betetr than your 5000 year old rubbish, its book (no plural BOOKS there) better thn all the otehr books combined, its adherents peaceful people vicitimized by USA and RSS, and your RSS thugs unleashing terrorist activities all over teh world with the world populace afraid of you Hindoo fundoos..

    Ashish refereed to the plans of CPI-ML as articulated on their wesbsite. So lefties and Islamists are all joining together against your corrupt religion (or whatever it is)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    :) very Shine-tee-fick explanation…

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Guys you have got it wrong, read carefully what it says
    You see there are ppll who will deny existence of Jins especially in west as their existence would prove another thing in Quran.

    However, intersting thing i came accross was abt two years ago NATGEO had a doc in which they showed interviews of women who were acctually raped while they were asleep, if i recall it correctly there was medical evidence of a rape taking place and accordin to them it occured while they were asleep and they didnt see the thing but it overpowered them and rapped them. Inface one victim got rapped multiple times over the period.
    It should be Very Sin-tee- f ck , given what they are discussing.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    This is for Bobby , who has made deriding Hindu Philosophy his mission of life
    he philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel refers to Indian thought reminiscent of Advaita-Vedanta in his introduction to his The Phenomenology of Spirit and in his Science of Logic. Arthur Schopenhauer was influenced by the Vedas and Upanishads; in his own words: “If the reader has also received the benefit of the Vedas, the access to which by means of the Upanishads is in my eyes the greatest privilege which this still young century (1818) may claim before all previous centuries, if then the reader, I say, has received his initiation in primeval Indian wisdom, and received it with an open heart, he will be prepared in the very best way for hearing what I have to tell him.” (The World as Will and Representation) Among western figures who have been influenced by or have commented on Vedanta are Ram Dass, Friedrich Nietzsche, Max Müller, Voltaire, J.D. Salinger, Aldous Huxley, T. S. Eliot, J.B. Priestley, Christopher Isherwood, Romain Rolland, Alan Watts, Eugene Wigner, Arnold Toynbee, Joseph Campbell, Hermann Hesse, Ralph Waldo Emerson[7], Henry David Thoreau[8], Will Durant, Nikola Tesla, Erwin Schrödinger[9] and John Dobson.[citation needed]

    J. Robert Oppenheimer, theoretical physicist and director of the Manhattan Project, also was a professed Vedāntist.[1

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Pakistanis now claim they are descendents of Arabs. There are many in India, leftists and Pro Muslims, who really would like to declare that sine Indians and Pakistannis come from the same root., Indians are also of a similar extraction.

    For them Arundhati Roy and Testelvad are heroes. Iqbal the national poet. Tagore be damed, Mahathma Gandhi be damned, Veds and Upnishads be damned, but keep Quran because it is the eternal truth.

    while the Mumbai carnage was going on, arundhati Roy came on TV and in print – time for India to choose between justice and civil war. She really wanted Indian Muslims to have conducted teh carnage, and then side them and support them because they did it as apart of their justice drive since justice was denied to them. She never apologized to indian Muslims.

    History repeats – all these secularists and leftists are so unhappy about the ayodhya verdict – suddenly all of them are constitutional experts. And they are also dumbfound as to why muslims are not taking to the streets.

    They are waiting for a third chance now — they should just stop teh crocodile tears for Muslims on the third strike. They should take teh clue from the general populace. That, Muslims and Hindus want prosperity, and both are working towards that, secularists and leftists, just watch from teh side. Find some otehr cause, like planting trees. All will be better off. Dont take the cause of the people. Trees, animals, water — that will keep you busy.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Pakistanis now claim they are descendents of Arabs

    totally they are son inlaws of hindus.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    The left, crocodile tear shedders gaddars,.Thisis from Ram Guha”india after Gandhi” page 97
    2the SOVIET embassy in delhi itself had a large staff , such that , in the words of a senior civil servant , the indian communist movement was receiving first class direction on te spot. Does this ring a bell, how gilani, mirwaiz get similar advice from Pakistani High commission.
    Somebody (deceased , but infanmous) had remarked about theIndian communists “I dont think you’d find a richer or more corrupt people anywhere”(Source Katherine Frank page393)

    [Reply]

  • http://www.braillecards.org Esha – People for the blind

    Hi Zia.. i read your story on the 2 Maharashtra farmers lecturing at Harvard. We would like to get in touch with them please. This is really important.. and u appear to be the only link to them at the moment.. thanks a ton! Please do contact (even if it is only to say that you dont know how to reach them and we should try someplace else ) . We are at 9999562685 and at eshabraille@gmail.com . Thanks a ton!!

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    Happy EID to real muzzos from arabia!

    Not the fake brown converted down the line weak indian sub continent muslims! LOSERS!

    WAKE UP AND RE CONVERT YOU FOOLS!

    BECOME FREE OF OPPRESSION BECOME FREE OF HATRED FOR YOUR ANCESTRAL PEOPLE!
    YOU DUMBOS!

    VOTE FOR DUDE FOR A INDIA WITH NO ISLAM!

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268071

    The truth of what Arundhati Roy and several others are saying…. The country is already sold out… between corporates and their political pimps… Infact there is no differencd anymore between the two anymore… Corporate India IS political India IS Indian Media… All institutions completely in the hands of the moneyed people.

    So much for “democratic India”… Do these words have any meaning at all….?

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    You as a leftist do not like India, its progress, its achievements.

    Any democracy has growing problems. US, even after 200 years of democracy, is still a work in progress.

    So, what do you suggest? If one person, one vote does not work, what else?

    How will jobss be created? Who will?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Binoy are you out of your mind? This is not about one man or one person. Have you heard these tapes?

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268068

    The political class and the corporate class are one and the same… and the media is in the pocket of the corporates. Democracy in India is DEAD. It was long dead, its been announced explicitly today.

    Its an oligarchy. Its owned by the moneyed people. Like the US is.

    The people of the country have no stake in it….. They are there to see the tamasha. The BJP, Congress, Ambani, Tata, Mittal, the Media are all one and the same. The difference you see between the congress and the BJP is for outward show.

    Thats why you will never see Advani punished for Babri demolition, or the congress leaders punished for sikh massacre.

    So much for the media guys who were calling Roy a traitor… Now we all know who is a traitor.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bobby , there ain’t any corporates in India they are all BEWSA or DHANDHA, true corporates are the ones who are GAME CHANGER , with INVENTIONS.If indian companies were nnot protected they will wither like ambassador car, this despite what the salesman from delhi like to tell you about innovation ecosystem and all that malaki. More later

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    By the way, now its clear why the media was so angry on Roy. It does not like anybody to say anything which will spoil the party… the great party going on attended by the ambanis and tatas and mittals, the media, and the political parties. .. On the menu is the wealth of the country, being doled out to the people who matter.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Ms Roy is doubless typing another 36 page essay even as I write this- thank you for summarizing her essential argument for me- thus saving me the trouble of reading it.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    A video that reveals a million facts

    “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GboUz11_J0Y”

    Ofcourse it went uncommented as an accepted part of our culture. But it says a lot about what we have become as a society and about India’s oligarchy.

    A media news outlet, blurring the difference between news and entertainment. A prime minsiter of the WORLDS NEXT SUPERPOWER or some such thing, who has the time and inclination to give an award in the most ridiculous category, when he doesnot have the time to visit ordinary people, or maybe thats not necessary.

    A home minister sitting next to the third richest man on earth, talking away as best buddies do.

    Sainath asks in one of his articles, why no news channel has a 24 hour correspondent to cover poverty round the clock? This is a country which has the worlds largest concentration of poor.

    NDTV has a channel called NDTV good times, where it shows what kind of tolet paper the ambanis use to wash their sh it, or some such important thing. But it has no channel, NDTV poverty.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    There is nothing wrong if the Home Minister talks to a business man in afunction.

    Mittals (both the steel guy and the telecom guy), Ambanis (he may have had help from politicians; but still came from nowhere) etc are self made men using their guts and bets – one can say Taat inherited, although Tata makes money to distribute to poor. Tata Holdings hands out all its income as charity.

    Poverty/Richness; intelligence/stupidity; strenth/weaknesses etc are just that — some people ahve it and some people do not have it.

    The good thing is that India of today is significantly better than India of 25 years ago or sixty years ago or 100 yers ago. Dow e have to go Miles? Yes.. What is standing in the way – entrenched bureaucrats ; not politicians. Politicians come and go, bureucrats remain.

    The challenge is how to strengthen the system; or if the system is bad, how to change it. Great men create great things, ssytems, institutions. Be a great man or shut up

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Binoy,

    Don’t mind my personal question. But have you done an MBA course by any chance?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bobby , calm down my mate, just remember india’s population is ONE BILLION, SWEDEN 90 LAKH four times size of west bengal. BRAZIL IS TWICE THE SIZE OF INDIA . India has no national language , ?30 official language , was colonised for 550 yrs , was afflicted with social syphilis called caste system has pimps called bramhins.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    NDTV poverty viewers 100, NDTV good times viewers 100 million. This is also known as market force.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    In which case you have to wonder, whether everything should be decided by “market forces”… There are many things that have a value independent of money, and whose value is in fact degraded by making it a “marketable commodity”

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, there is line in Adam Smith’s seminal work about the butcher. That the butcher is driven by his self interest also does serve the community , as he rears the animals , kills it prepares it. similarly market forces make sure in UK tuna fish is not caught by drift net and is dolphin friendly. This is not because the CEO of marks and spencer gets doe eyed at the mention of dolphin.but because the MARKET demands a enviornment friendly product. The same reason why SUTAPA DEY in all the documentaries in NDTV only talks about the dispossesed , this has more to do with catering to its image to its TARGET AUDIENCE (read market) , who demand that kind of image. in contrast to NDTV good time viewers.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    While we are transgressing from terrorism, one has to wonder whether this collusion btween journalists, politicians, bureaucrats, and businessmen isnt another or even worse form of terrorism..

    I hope money can be captured back to the treasury, controls established so these do not happen (at this magnitude), and people liek Raja and the supporting bureucrats put in jail long term.

    One also has to look into the so called “backward” group politicians like Karunanidhi. Karunanidhi and Dayanidhi Maran and their families hve made illions from the public treasury. All the time duping people about Brahmin this and that. Mayawati is doing the same this. All these “for people” leaders give slogans to their rank and file while stealing 24 x 7. And election after election they themselves bring up how backward dalits are. What are these dalit leaders doing for dalits?

    I do not think (and hope) MMS personally did not know and benefit from this. If he did not know, his capabilities should be questioned. If he knew and did not act it is even worse. If he knew and took part in the loot — I just hope that is not true..

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “people liek Raja and the supporting bureucrats put in jail long term.”

    what about people like ambani?

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy,
    this is my much hoped for future come true- the “post-caste, post-religion” society where loot of public money has been democratized – at least among the elite. We of the hoi polloi can hope to benefit from the trickle-down effect.
    Seriously, no Indian can hold his head high after these tapes.
    @Zia, any comments on your esteemed editorial adviser’s role as has surfaced in the tapes? So, is there a “rate-list” for journos now? Why don’t you investigate?
    The silence on the tapes by the mainstream TV channels is deafening- everyone is rallying around their own- Padmashri Barkha Dutt.
    Come on Zia; be a man. Be the first man in mainstream media (outside of Outlook and Open and possibly Mid-Day) to “do a story” on the “Radia tapes”.
    @Bobby, every person found guilty of wrong-doing should face the music, why not Ambanis? That said, other than the Ambanis, there are not many MBAs in the list of those on the tape. An MBA degree is not a pre-requisite for acquiring the skills exhibited by those on tape.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    US, with all its flaws, punishes its politicians and officials if and when they are caught. Powerful senators and governors have gone to jail.

    I hope everybody conncetd with this case, definitely the top ones – politicians, journalists, officals, businessmen- goes to jail long term (10 years). Fear is a motivator. The opportunity for graft is enormous with all the developmenatl projects underway.

    I hope there is a control mechanism on the huge infrastructure projects planned – road expansion, airport expnsion etc running into trillion dllars.

    Ashish – term limit, rules against nepotism (that a chief mi/min n son cannot be a minister until after 5 years of the CM leaving etc.. will have to be established. The Karunanidhi show – he and his four sons/daughters/newphews as central cabinet ministers (I read somewhere he wanted even more of his sons/daughters in the central cabinet, Sonia put her feet down)

    One silver lining is that this came out. How many like this must be happening that never comes out? Is the GAO independent enough to go after any potential situation?

    Now this Raja of course is corrupt – but he is young, and may not have all the knowhow to manage a gigantic stealing like this — there must be several IAS type people who are behind this and may have made even more than him. I strongly believe that a clean bureaucracy will prevent much of the corruption. But today, we have a situation where draculas have keys to the blood bank..

    Bobby Reply:

    This is from the Sainath article:

    “The GFI study makes two vital points amongst others that will surely stoke ongoing debates in the country. One: the drain bloated massively in the era of economic liberalization and reforms starting with 1991. Two: “High net-worth individuals and private companies were found to be the primary drivers of illicit flows out of India’s private sector.” Conversely, “India’s underground economy is also a significant driver of illicit financial flows.””

    The biggest frauds in the country are not the babus, as is made out to be… but the wealthy corporates.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Ashish,

    My comment about MBA was not meant to mean that people wiith MBA degrees tend to steal or some such thing.

    I have found from personal experience, that MBA’s have the remarkable talent to talk absolute gibberish, with zero content, but full of meaning less cliches.

    I find in Binoy the same qualities.

    Bobby Reply:

    A talent they share with astrologers….. Not surprising since both are in the buisness of fooling others.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    “the ability of talking endless gibberish without content” and
    “making a living out of fooling others”
    - no one better at this than a journalist- and guess what, no qualifications needed.

    Today, the internet has made information available at the hands of those who are unable to make any sense of it. So, we have guys discussing advanced economics without even a nodding acquaintance with the demand-supply curve; we have lengthy dissertations on Indian society from those who do not know who MN Srinivas was and so on. And, of course, a doctor lecturing on digital vs analogue recording techniques..
    Only last week I was at a conference where the whole hall applauded when the speaker- an IITM alumnus and a celebrated entrepreneur with one foot in Chennai and the other in Bay Area, said that all “IIMs should be closed down- and you can quote me on it”. – I guess, for whatever else, you can’t fault an MBA for his sense of humour :P .. half of the hall would have had a b-school degree.

    shan Reply:

    @bobby, expected better from you . to slag off Business Schools simply reveals your envy at best ignorance at worst. The comments from the salesman from delhi is expected, as they say there is no tax as yet for talking porky and envy. It is for these morons who are a mirror image of the islamic delusionist , making sweeping generalisation no concrete evidence , no examples NO evidence to back up the argument only FROTH , A HOLLOW MIND AND A SHALLOW INTELLECT

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby,today salesman with the primeter of knowledge that cannot step beyond SOCIOLOGY given the number of times Srinivas and kancha Illiya whatever geezer props up,goes algae green when confronted with people with rather voracious appetite for knowledge. Needless to point you that to get into medicine you need to score pretty high marks and should havee a very strong grounding in science , otherwise the tools that one uses , like sound waves (ultrasound) , and doppler shift phenomenon , isotopes and radiation (nuclear medicine) , and the fact countless doctors have invented so many devices needing so much physics and engineering , such as Dialysis and haemofiltration , pacemaker , heart lung machine , pacemaker , the artificial mechanical heart (jarvik) and counter pulsation device. this is not surprising (unless your background is marketing or sociology), because the CRANK SHAFT was invented by a dutch farmer to chanel the mechanical energy harnessed from windmill to use it cut long logs of wood to make ships.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, this is what MBA stands for
    The Master of Business Administration (MBA or M.B.A.) is a master’s degree in business administration, which attracts people from a wide range of academic disciplines. The MBA designation originated in the United States, emerging from the late 19th century as the country industrialized and companies sought out scientific approaches to management. The core courses in the MBA program are designed to introduce students to the various areas of business such as accounting, marketing, human resources, operations management, etc. Students in some MBA programs have the option to select an area or multiple areas of concentration and focus approximately one-third of their studies in this subject.
    And these are topics they study
    # Basic Probability and Statistics
    # Financial Accounting
    # Managerial Accounting
    # Corporate Strategy
    # Microeconomics
    # Macroeconomics
    # Decision Models
    # Corporate Finance
    # Marketing Strategy
    # Marketing Implementation
    # Organizational Behavior and Structure
    # Leadership
    # Operations Management
    # Negotiations
    # Ethics
    # Capital Markets

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , post script. Akio Toyoda , the CEO of Toyota Motors went to usa and graduated with a MBA from a us business school. Should have come to delhi to study under the TUTELAGE OF ASHISH , for knowledge of K Srinivas and Kancha Illiya or whatever balderdash

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    very interesting information on a typical MBA program!
    I am tempted- sorely tempted.. I wish I could go back, but, having suffered me for 2 years in a distant past, my alma mater is unlikely to repeat the mistake again! Well, to be very honest, I did not get a MBA; it was a mere post grad diploma in management (PGDM). You see, it was a “deemed university”- not allowed to award degrees! I am told, though that people still value that diploma; haven[‘t frankly figured why, since no one has ever asked to see the offending piece of paper since I graduated.
    Having an MBA (or pGDM) does not stop me from poking fun at fellow b-schoolers.
    Nor would my other alma mater – which made the mistake of giving me my basic graduation degree in Electronics Engineering- repeat the mistake of admitting me again. I have not seen that degree either in 25 years- nor has anyone asked me for it.
    Sorry for the personal appeal- anyone from ITBHU batch of 86 here? Please go to facebook and register; we have a silver jubilee coming up next year- a passing out parade if you like.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde,
    read Swapan Dasgupta on the topic of culpability of MMS in the TOI.
    Yes, limiting the terms of the elected reps is one option- but, given our moral standards, it might just force people to “maximise the returns” from the limited time they are in power.
    The single biggest problem in India is dis-respect for rule of law and shoddy and non time-bound law enforcement/ justice delivery. And, in a way, my sadness at the turn of events matches Bobby’s. The entire ruling class has been shown up for a bunch of crooks; with no fear for consequences.
    The silver lining is that there still seem to be upright people- like the folks who ordered the tapping of Nira Radia’s phones and made the tapes available to be used in a PIL.
    You have to be in India today to sense the feeling of outrage among common men. The major media houses have totally blanked out all coverage of the tapes- HT, TOI have carried not a line. The major TV channels have mentioned not a word- there is a collusion of silence or, perhaps- worse, the fear that no hand is clean- all of the journos have played the game at some time and they can all be exposed.
    The recent anniversary issue of Outlook magazine should be required reading for all of us. It talks about practices like “paid news”- and among the top media houses in the country.

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Shan,

    I dont understand why you had to post all this info about MBA. Did I say that its easy to get into or get an MBA degree? Where did I say that people doing MBA are not smart?

    I have a problem with the concept of managers or leaders. I think its used to control people. My thinking about this is that, corporations , factories should be run along democratic lines, as opposed to the hierarchical structure of today.

    There is no need for special class of people with MBA degrees to rule or manage over workers in a factory or a company. The people themselves can elect a member amongst themselves to do that as happens in a political system.

    Democracy at workplace is the next step for true democracy. The people who add value to a factory are the workers, not Ratan Tata or Ambani. They just boss around, taking advantage of the present system.

    That does not mean that that MBA’s are dumb or any such thing, far from it they must be quite smart to be able to control so many people, and make decisions for them… but smartness in itself has no value. One can use it to fool others or for the betterment of others. An MBA degree I feel falls into the first category.

    No offence is meant to anyone with an MBA degree. Given the present situation, thats how it is.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, well well well , THE CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG. Well give me all the information , I will make the diagnosis. first an anecdote. A patient came to see me apparently unable to have any erection.
    Now they have to fill in a questionairre before seeing me. One of the question was “Do you have any fantasies”. The answer given “I would like to be tie my partner and then have s.x ” Now you dont need PDE5 inhibitor drugs for that do you , you need a marriage counsellor.
    In your case explains few things COW BELT UNIVERSITY , gives you good grounding in right wing HINDU(what a coincidence) ideology , and your caste chimes with it. A patient to attend more later.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ashish

    May be the groundswell of common man will help to set fear.. Looks like fear is the only motivator.

    You touched the right point on the legal system. The long drawn process (a ka Bhopal!) and loopholes essentially ensure nobody gets punished. The collusion between lawyers and magistrates in posytponing acses, “not taking” cases etc goes back in time. There was a civil property case filed my grandfather which continued for 40 years!

    With all the negatives about Sharia, sometimes I wonder , a *** for tat and chopping off hands etc may prevent these types of cases!

    Human beings being human beings, only fear and ‘negative” motivations may work in these cases.

    The good thing that may have come out from this is the rage of the individual.. Let us hope it will result in some tighteninga nd prevention.

    Let us also not forget the greatest democracy essentially destroyed the world financial system as we know it. It was Wall Street financiers “love affair” with subprime mortgages brought the world down – US is in for a long term decline, Ireland, greece etc are reeling, millions lost their savings and retirement and job; no Wall Street “packager” of mortages/MBS/CDOs have been punished. The last election success of tea party right wingers was mainly due to this popular outrage.

    shan Reply:

    @ashish, to take up from I left(got few minutes, because there is a greek cypriot patient who wants a female doctor to examine her). Despite your undying allegiance to that right wing magazine The Economist , I am staggered you got flumoxxed, at my mentioning , how apple with its I pod (incidentally designed by a brit, who is no more brit now)has completely dislodged and cause the demise of walkman and its clones. Unless you yourself are to give it in your own words”the internet has made information available at the hands of those who are unable to make any sense of it. “. You should be aware SONY HAVE BEEN POSTING LOSS AFTER LOSS for last couple of years. Only recently it has turned the corner. also next time if you post something, back it upwith hard data , clear visible examples. Opinions on its own count as much as me talking to the patient without giving any treatment(the analogy may be ****). EVERY WORD I HAD WRITTEN ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL BASE IN INDIAN DEFENCE MANUFACTURING is a fruit of years of research , if you want to refute come back with EVIDENCE , EVIDENCE EVIDENCE. hard examples. NOT ONE LINERS. Jyoti Basu was quite adept at one liners. More wisdom will be imparted when I reply to Bobby , now some work to do.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde, I read in The Times, London , that supposing there are no new cases , just to clear the backlog in our courts at the present rate will take 500yrs !!!!!!!!. A lawyer once told me , they cannot appoint a BJP leaning judge, he will jail anybody with amuslim surname, if you appoint a congress leaning judge he will jail anybody INNOCENT with a hindu surname , AND IT IS A CPM , THEN WILL JAIL INNOCENT BOTH HINDU AND MUSLIM

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    So India is bad, US is bad.. what will be a good example? Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Jordan, Morocco????

    Or China, Russia, Cuba… or

    South Korea, Singapore???

    Otr any other working model?

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    PRESENTLY —- SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES ——- I THINK .

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Farid, those scandanavian countries include, DENMARK of the infamous cartoon.Are you comfortable with it , If you are and the rest of bangladeshis are , then nobody can stop bangladesh fromracing ahead.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    I don’t consider it wrong, if Muslims of Denmark felt offended with the cartoon and protested about it. (Even Hindus in US have protested, when their Gods picture was printed on foot ware, bikinis and toilet seats). I do not understand modern art. Seeing a Hussein’s picture hardly rises any emotions in me. But I would understand, if a Hindu feels hurt. (After all, ours is a sentimental nation). I just want the protests to be “civic”, not violent.

    I would like the protestors to confine to their region, not to go global. Let Denmark Muslims protest in Denmark. No doubt, a Muslim in Bangladesh also might feel offended like how I feel seeing Hindu God’s picture on a slipper (even though, it is printed in UK/US). But there is no point for both Hindus or Muslims in our country to go for protest, when we have hundreds of our own problem. But western media need to understand, eastern people are more sentimental (who love over the top Bollywood movies!). We feel touchy about so many things, which they usually don’t care (They can call Christ a gay and get away with it).
    It is just the cultural difference.

    farid Reply:

    I lived with TASLIMA NASREEN in my country—still have no bad feelings for her .
    Cartoonist–is not my next door neighbor. I do not like his acts -I have no respect//regard for him but for that I will not support any violence against the person. His act hearts many MUSLIMS all over the world. Non violent -protests from all — will discourage cartoonist like people –they do these sort of acts– not for social progress //benefit but for personal publicity.

    abhi Reply:

    “A particular danger is that the US-led war on terror represents as some sort of an attempt to take over Muslim territories.” What is a Muslim territory? Could we please also have a Hindu territory, a Jewish territory, a Christian territory, a Buddhist territory, and so on?

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    That is the whole issue. There is this notion among Muslims, reinforced by their Madrasa and religious teachings, that there is an Islamic land (Dar-ul-Islam) and a non-belivers land (Dar-ul-Harb). So, all the Muslim majority or Muslim only countries are Dar-Ul-Islam.

    Jews consider Israel as a Jewish land. Although they do not ahve the concept of “non-believers” and killing the non-believer. I do not think any other religion has proclaimed a “land” for themselves.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, the “denial” mode exhibited by many Muslims is demonstrated by the following situation i Minneapolis, USA.

    There are thousands of Somali Muslim immigrants in Minneapolis, USA. These Muslims were brought to Minneapolis by many charity oganizations and by the Govt themselves when Somalia was bleeding through civil war.. Many Muslim men were arrested during the last two years for particpating in the Al Queda/Al Shihab terrorist activities in Somalia. Few weeks ago, many Muslim men, including an Imam were arrested for interstae trafficing of under-age Muslim girls for prostituition. Girls of 12 and 13 were trafficked, and some where “used” by upto 7 clients a night.

    On both of these situations, a large section of Somali Muslim immigrants stated that it cannot be Muslims, because Msulims cannot and will not do this.

    Figure it out.

    ram autar Reply:

    near 60 acharya are serving jail term prison in usa for raping teen age girls.guru of close friend is caught fkng his wife.u people mortagage ur mind to purohits pundits and bhattjee.
    who will take u to heaven after good payment.

    ram autar Reply:

    i think u are totally ignorant or paid provocateur,the following is jewish mind and part of speech of menhachem begin in his knesset,the same is thought brhmns in india.

    “Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine goods on this planet. We are as different from inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be reuled by our leader with a rod of Iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”

    there is muslim or hindu land,land belongs to people.what they have done to aoriginal inhabitants of america canada newzealand autralia and palestine is known to everybody.
    dont tryto fool us.

    farid Reply:

    ——– what about NEPAL—is it — A HINDU STATE ?

    shan Reply:

    @farid, nepal is the only hindu state in the world, but everywhere where there is muslim majority it is a theocratic MUSLIM state , including your country , and hasina’s attempt to turn it into a secular state is loathed and resisted in equal measure by most bangaldeshis including the likes of you as evidenced by the articles in Euro Bangla , which claims that Hasina is trying to wipe out Islam from Bangladesh. Any bets on a imminent coup.

    Asad Reply:

    India is wannabe hindu state as well, but unable to do so because of a sizeable muslim population….. This is a natural human tendency. Shan’s reply lacks good thinking.

    ram autar Reply:

    dont forget aboriginal terrotery.there is hindu terrotory as they are outsiders.

  • Bobby

    http://www.indiatogether.org/2010/nov/psa-outflow.htm

    interesting article from Sainath.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    So, is Sainath educating people to fight against these or publishiong some thing in English papers, get invited by non-profits, speak at UN or what…

    [Reply]

  • Ravi
  • Ravi

    Jugni provides a half term report.

    Eh chughrda tahneon mukkna jadhon Jehulm pani mukkana.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuC4bszYxyw&feature=related

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Bloggers et al, Now we come to what India truly represents , the land of SANATAN DHARMA. The problem with India or by extension Indians is that THEY LOVE NOISE. THEY LOVE CHATTER. Corruption is an universal phenomenon. Recently there was a news in the london The Times about Sarkozy . This is about the Akula class submarine that I mentioned in response to zia’s article , which made that dim wit salesman go green at the sweep and breadth of my analysis. Now as you know french engineers went to pakistan to help build the submarine, and they were killed by the islamic militants while travelling by bus. A judicial inquest took place in France. A barrel full of worms came out. Incredible it may be appear according to the judge presiding ELEMENTS IN PAK ARMY ORCHESTRATED THE KILLING. Also came out that the payment pakistan made to France , part of it was paid as commission back to the ARMY OFFICIALS in pakistan , even more incredible is that PART OF THAT KICKBACK WAS ROUTED BACK TO BENEFICIARY IN GALLIST PARTY , and the LAWYER NICHOLAS SARKOZY THROUGH LEBANESE INTERMEDIARY. So there you have it. Now problem with India is the PETTY CORRUPTION, which is not seen in any DEVOLOPED COUNTRY. Big corruption appears time to time , IT IS LIKE prostitution , rape , murder,. As much you make laws you can put them into jail BUT YOU CANNOT ELLIMINATE THEM. Also lot depends on the national character . When Cromwell was planning to hang Charles the first, a last ditch attempt was made by charles through earl of essex offering him TWENTY THOUSAND POUNDS. But that was cromwell , it didn’t work.
    The bottom line is so long THE STATE ACTS EXPEDITIOUSLY AND SETS EXEMPLARY PUNISHMENT WE SHOULD BE SATISFIED.
    Incredible it may appear , even if there was not a single scam , and TO MAKE BOBBY HAPPY, amabnis all assets are sold off and the money deposited to the treasury , NOT A MASSIVE CHANGE IN STANDARD OF LIVING OF THE POOR WILL TAKE. Just do the sums you will get the answers. Say this brings in even by wild and exaggerated estimate Three Hundreed thousand Crores , divide three hundreed thousand by hundreed twenty , that is one of bonus payment every citizen will get. Which is pea nut. The problem is far more fundamental . As I keep pointing out despite what quasi literate git , who is illiterate in science might like to have us beleive , INDIA IS HUNDREED YEARS BEHIND IN AGRICULTURE , AND TECHNOLOGY. The examples run into hundreeds, this is not the appropriate forum.Just a very very mundane example. Guys you all must have bought KEEMA from the butcher in India. What does he do , he slices the abdominal muscles and then keeps on beating it with meat cleaver. Anyone who has lived in the west knows you can buy a simple machine where you feed the meat through a funnel , it goes through a electric motor driven mincer and comes out as Keema. I once visited a diary farm. You woudn’t beleive it , the PRIZE BULL LOOKED LIKE A DINOSAUR, it was simply frightening , and there are specialist people who do the inseminastion. just type prize bullsemen in google you will see denmark is market leader in selling frozen semen. Or just take Israel , a pioneer in drip irrigation , they turned the desert into a highly fertlle land by sprinkling MOLYBDENUM. And this tiny country produces so much orange juice that it is exported after extracting the water out of the juice and sold as concentrate , which will be reconstituted as orange juice by adding water in plants in the importing country. When i visited a Hospital in Calcutta , one doctor told me “Even if you want to donate one crore , you cant , because there is no mechanism to accept”. I am aware this is calcutta , the pit.
    Then again whom are you going to tell this , to those petty , small brain , envy ridden , salesman from delhi , better lets talk about OBAMAS WAR which I have just started. Only ten pages , and it is full of explosive stuff.
    Here is one.
    In June2008, Mcconnell had taken human and technical intelligence to Bush showing multiple conversations between an ISI colonel and Siraj Haqqani guerilla commander allied with afgan taliban. “Okay” Bush had said “we are going to stop playing the game.These sons of ******* are killing Americans. I’ve had enough” Page4.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    PAKIS ARE NEO CONVERT(PUNJAB CAME UNDER SHELTER OF ISLAM only 100-150).they still carry the virus of brhmnsm.anti-boitic of izlam is working but it will take some more time.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Zia, listened to Radia Tapes. Simply damp squib. Classical indian , as they say in bengali uttogena, excitement. What does the tape or the concersation establish, that barkha was acting as a go between , what’s the big deal , shows she has access to all congress leaders who are using her to run errands. THERE WAS NO MENTION OF MONETARY FAVOUR , does it prove it compromises her neutrality . Whoever beleived in her or NDTV’s neutralility needs a thorough psychiatric evaluation. There have been rumours that she took twenty five lakhs from aamir khan for promoting his film. That Taran Adarsh does is an open secret. MEDIA BIAS IS TAKEN FOR GRANTED IN WEST. ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THERE ARE SEVERAL POINTS OF VIEW. In India we desperately need another two or three 24 hrs ENGLISH channel. Just ask Binoy Hegde about FOX NEWS, will make SAMNA appear liberal. In Uk there is a whole raft of both print and electronic media severly biased in favour of TORY PARTY. It is commonly referred to as Tory press. The logic put forward here is that people will buy or tune into channels according to their individual biases and PREJUDICES. a research by a prof of political science in glasgow has shown that when it comes to voting , it does not follow automatically , which party one is going to vote.
    Every body knows that ugly b i t c h brinda karat gets so much prominence and Trinamool is slagged off BECAUSE BRINDA IS PRONOY ROY’S SISTER IN LAW.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    While Raja and his buddies are stealing, the other type of terrorism goes unabated..

    From yesterdays NY Time s- two men and a child were killed after suspected members of “Boko Haram” an islamic sect whose name is “western education is sacrilege” in Hausa language attacked a mosque in norteastern Nigeria during friday prayers’. the group is tied to 14 killings in the last two months..

    And this about Saudi Arabia., regarding whether women can participate in sports – “most prominent clerics continue to oppose spoerts for women under all circumstances arguing that sports will lead to engage in behavious like wearing immodest clothing or leaving homes unnecessarily. Other clerics argue that sports are absolutely off limits only for virgins who would become unmarriagable if theyw ere to damage their hymens through atheltic activity. “women should be housewives”, the garnd mufti told the Sadi channel Al EquitaSadiiah “there is no need for them to engage in sports”

    Case opened and shut!

    Anybody for reformation?.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ Binoy, saudi will not change in foreseable future. The “white” west will make sure House of saud is protected and its kingdom intact.same with BRUNEI , there is too much oil at stake. As for Nigeria , some sociolgist should go and do some work. The christians in Nigeria are light years ahead in every aspect ,compared to the muslims. A bit like christian tribals of india are light years ahead in compared to dalits and non christian tribals.Religion does shape acountry as well an individual.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, Went to watch Canalletto exhibition in national gallery at trafalgar square. In the square was a sit in demonstration against the stoning to death sentence for alleged adultery in Iran. this was arranged by expatriate Iranians with poster BARBARITY IN ISLAM etc.I saw few hizab clad most likely pakistani origin college going girls with placard AFGANISTAN GO HOME etc.But as the girls saw this anti islamposter by the iranians ,they like little rats left the scene without anybody noticing them.MESSAGE meet fire with fire .

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    HINDUISM IMPOSED ON BAHUJANS
    The indigenous peoples of India now call themselves Bahujans which means the majority people. After the Aryan conquest they suffered for thousands of years as serfs of conquering Aryans who imposed on them a religion called Hinduism that robbed them of their identity and their faith. Apartheid and untouchability are not just evil practices, the varna (caste hierarchy) system is an article of faith — perhaps the prime article of Hinduism. Hatred is the religious duty of every practicing Hindu. The situation of the Bahujan is like the serfs.
    That was until the advent of Muslim rule over South Asia, which lasted 800 years. Under Muslim rule, repression of the Bahujan became impossible as the non-working priest caste (Brahmins) became impoverished and the caste of fighters could survive only as soldiers in the service of the new rulers. The Bahujan flourished under Muslim rule because they were workers and were eventually employed as fighters by the Muslims as well as the British. In the 17th Century the Mughal Empire in India accounted for 25% of the GDP of the world. No wonder it was so much sought after by European colonial powers and ended up being a ‘Jewel in the British Crown’.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Well, Zia will say they (this new Nigerian muslim terrorist group against education) are making progress — they are not saying all education is bad, but only western education!

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Binoy Hegde, This is to calm your nerves, this from Obama’s War page46,
    “The United States military did not have war plans for an invasion of pakistan. Instead . instead it had and continues to have one of the most sensitive and secret of all military contingencies, what military call a “retribution plan”. under this plan the US would bomb or attack every known Al Quaida compound or training in the US intelligence database. some locations might be outdated, but there would be no concern, under the plan , for who might be living their now.The retribution plan called for a brutal , punishing attack on at least 150or more associated camps.”

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Bobby,

    “I have found from personal experience, that MBA’s have the remarkable talent to talk absolute gibberish, with zero content, but full of meaning less cliches. ”

    Being a theoretical Physicist, can you please explain the significance of the String Theory (the glamorous topic among theoreticians), its physical interpretation and its relevance in contemporary world; to a layman, without any jargon?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vinay,
    man! that’s tough.
    Forget the strong theory; I have never quite understood the Dirac-Delta function, you know, in a physical sense. Start with that, if you like Bobby :-P

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Vinay,

    You seem to have been offended by my line on MBA’s. Sorry, I should not have said that.

    About string theory: This website is good enough for a colloquial summary.

    “http://superstringtheory.com/”

    But in a few lines…

    One of the most important lessons of the physics of the last century was that the world is quantum mechanical at the fundamental level. And the classical laws of Newton and Einstein are an approximation of this Quantum theory. It so happens, that most of the laws of nature, have been understood at the quantum level.

    However there is an exception. The oldest understood law- The theory of gravity. Newton first described it several centuries back. However since we know that all classical laws are merely an approximation, so it must be that the classical Newtons(or Einsteins) law of gravity must be an approximation too.

    The problem was that people did not know the quantum mechanical origins of the law of gravity — of which Newtons law would be an approximation. This is the problem of “Quantizing gravity”

    String theory is a (and till now only) solution to this problem. However this is still mathematics at this stage, for its not been experimentally verified. There is a small chance that this theory will get a boost from some of the data coming out of the LHC.

    @Ashish,

    Dirac delta function.. well I dont know how to physically explain it. Let me think about it. However in short , its not a mathematical function itself, but rather a “limiting function”. One way to think of this, is that… If you have a finite dimensional vector space, like our ordinary three dimensional space.. there exists “orthonormal basis vectors”. The dirac delta function is actually the analogue of this for vector spaces which are “non countable”… meaning… when the basis is not labeled by integers….. Sorry i think i did a bad job at explaining. you will find very good reviews on the net I am sure.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Bobby,

    I never got offended at first place. So, no need to be apologetic. I just meant, some terminologies used by professionals in any area can look gibberish to an outsider. Science is not an exception. (Hope, you take it in a lighter way :-) )

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    Just kidding man; I mean the Dirac Delta function was enough of a nightmare 25 years back. I did not mean to challenge you . I really have no desire to revisit the Dirac Delta function- once was quite enough, thank you!
    And, finding a physical explanation is tough for these functions.
    These days, I find it enough of a challenge to coach my 13 year old on basic circuit theory- ah, Kirchoff’s laws, here I come.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Binoy Hegde,
    Want to respond on the last paragraph of your post addressed to me.
    I am not sure there is a causation argument that can be made about the “democratic system” leading to the greatest financial scam- well, to the extent the free markets and democracy flower together, you are right. But, I would argue that democracy leads to financial wrong-doing on a massive scale is self-flagellatory logic.
    The other interesting point I read was in Economist- which posited that while everytime there is a scam/ meltdown in the markets folks scramble to put together safeguards and things- leading to the question as to why those safeguards were not put in place in the first place. The article argues that for one, it will kill innovation totally- and put needless encumbrances on the path of innovation and risk taking. For instance, when derivatives trading was first introduced, why, even paper money was introduced, I am sure there were a lot of folks who argued against it. But, if we thought of all the future scenarios where paper money (or plastic money!) would cause problems, we would be denied the enormous benefits of financial innovations that these examples (mine!) represented.
    For another, and this one was really interesting, the Economist went on to say that it actually is cheaper for the society to have a meltdown/ bailout once in 20/ 30 years rather than put in place a system of governance ahead of its time. It has very nice data too; dig it up.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ashish

    You are right in the sense all possibilities and scenarios could not be conceived when the innovation is introduced. However, theer are several things that could be done and should be done when a new financial product is introduced. It looks like that, in future, in US, no new credit product will be introduced without some regulations on day 1 of the product intro,a s well as some risk sharing by all. What ahppene din the mortgage crisis was nobody shared any risk other than the ultimate bond buyers; and theer were no regulations on underwriting, minimum down paymente tc (plus in the US there is myriad state and local rules, that essentially means no rules). .

    The foreclosure crisis unravelling here has opened up all the mess – lack of documentation , availability of documentation, authotity to perform a foreclosure if teh underlying documents are not present etc..

    I am of teh firm opinion (and heer I may be on bobbys side) that theer should not be a role for financial innovation if it does not produce employment, plants, software, design etc… A finanvcial innovation to cover financial gains or pure sspeculative profit making should not eb allowed.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde,
    Yes, human greed is tough to regulate against; isn’t it?
    I do not dispute any facts you state here. I just hope though that genuine innovations still find a way to gain traction. And, I am with you in your disquiet about the purely financial juggley that went on.
    Just to clarify, the Economist defended bailouts across all sectors- Detroit to New York. Some of the examples cited here are mine- as a result, the logic may have got stretched too!

    @Bobby,
    Just read your piece on democratizing the production and decision making and all that. In knowledge economies, the issues of leadership can no longer be addressed in the simple command and control structure of yore. So, who knows? Software factories of today- labs of social engineering tomrrow – a social order the day after??
    I am of course sceptical- because I see a role for the ugly capitalist. But, there are some really interesting friends of mine who are working at creating an innovation fostering network- using internet. Of course, for profit!

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan
    I fear we have already digressed enough; I will say one last time what the facts of the matter is re’ Sony Walkman- Apple IPOD..

    Apple iPOD came in to the market already populated by other MP3 players. They just had a great product and fantastic marketing and user experience. They became top of the hill- but the nature of the hill by then had changed to MP3 players.
    Sony walkman, incidentally had moved to digital platform long back- I still have one that plays CDs, in pristine condition- even the guy who washes my car would not take it! So, it is incorrect to say that iPODs killed analogue technology- the fact is that digital tech had killed analog- and Apple iPOD came in as a strong player in the Digital MP3 player market. It is important to understand the sequence.
    Now for Sony’s recent travails- Sony is a huge behemoth- it has its fingers in many pies- A/V, IT, entertainment, gaming, movies even financial services. It is safe to say that if Sony even stopped making the Walkman, in whatever form it exists today- it would not cause even a wrinkle in their finances- positive or negative.
    By the way, companies go out of business, new companies come in- happens all the time. 10 years back, Google could have been acquired for 1B by MIcrosoft, Youtube, FB, Twitter, Wordpress did not exist. IBM made PCs, HP was a printer company. No one predicted Detroit would implode, or the Lehman brothers would go out of business.
    Anyway, don’t trawl wikipedia and bother writing un-related facts about this or digital technology or relative business models of Sony and Apple- I shall not respond.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, you do not need to respond , just be enlightened. When I meant digital i was not precise , I meant Mp3 and Internet platform with downloads . As to your CD , this was not truly a sony invention , it was jointly devoloped with Philips. Philips had an edge in this matter , and akio morita says candidly in his book how he made the wrong decision in not focussing on digital research(page number will be provided) . Philips had invented a laser disc to compete with VCR , but lost out because the disc was the size old long play vinyl record.And it is not only walkman , in TV also sony was caught napping. The LCD is an invention of SHARP , and LED back or edgelight is invented by samsung. All the panels that one sees in sony tv is actually samsung panel. Now with gaming they made massive money from playstation , then came literally game changer with nintendi wii, and now this christmas we will have microsoft new console which does away with any controls and has infra red body motion sensor, dont think there will be many takers for PS3 this christmas.
    Next is mobile phone , it tied of with erricsson , because it is a telecommunication giant who also is giant in radar technology. Again I phonw with its motion sensor have knocked the hell out of all competition , though now with android system some like samsung are clawing back.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan, Ashish

    Some companies self die, or get run over; while some old companies continue to innovate and thrive.

    Years ago, the famous marketing guru of Northwestern university wrote a seminal article “Marketing Myopia”. Which precisely predicted who will win, who will lose etc.. His whole tehseis was that a company has to define itself as to what purpose it is there. So, he said the old railroad companies in US died because they saw as railroad companies, and t transportation companies..Had they s een themselves as transportation co, they would have gone into airlines (not that it is good business now), or cruise industry etc..

    IBM reinvented itself when they decided they are not in computer business , but in informatiuon managementa nd solutions business. It is doing well customerwise and financialwise and innovationwise.

    Many Japanese and korean companies fall itself into the “gadget” business; and when new gadgets appear, they get left behind.

    Indian companies like Infosys, TCS etc will do very well, ebcause although they started with commodity yerar2000 type work, they positioned themselves as an Information Solutions partner, and now they are doing so much creative high end work in embedded systems, software solutions that are priced oon the drink etc.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, what chinese manual labour does for international manufacturing , indian intellectual labour is doing mostly SOFTWARE related work for international company. It is understandable Ashish being in Delhi gets awestruck and takes every word of THE ECONOMIST as gospel according to matthew. I live in the country from where these wisdom is given to former colonial subjects in delhi , who are enamoured at its every sentence. There is a place called SQUARE MILE , also known as “the city”, which is the financial centre of probably the world. Because of its imperial legacy , and english language all the coomodity future trading takes place here , so does london metal exchange with all the minerals. the banking and currency trading and speculation must be bloody big, because I heard George Soros was speaking in such a deferential manner , he said banking here is so huge. Now UK’s economy is MASSIVELY dependent on this SERVICE SECTOR. Now you can understand why economist was trying to argue in favour of this financial russian roulette. This money banks dont grow in their back garden , this is yours and mine money , which nobody gave them authority to play gamble with , and lot also is given by CENTRAL BANKS. Now there is a minister in current cabinet by the name of VINCE CABLE. Incidentally he used to work in the “The City”. He has said the last word , which resonates with what you have said , “In the city what goes on is just SHIFTING MONEY”. Now it has dawned on this govt WITHOUT TECHNOLOGICAL POWER YOU ARE NOTHING, India is in kindergarten so far real technology is concerned, BECAUSE WORLD IS NOT ONLY IT AND SOFTWARE. I dont think there is one indian brand in global hundreed top brand equity.Difficult for someone from cowbelt university to appreciate this.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde,
    the nature of innovation has changed.. in many areas, it is now possible to innovate out of the big companies.
    The classic recognition of this is the venture funds run by many of the internet majors like Google- in fact, I will not be surprised if much of product innovations in future actually happen in “mom-and-pop stores”. Companies like Google, MS, Apple, Cisco (past-master at this) will concentrate on identifying promising technology (developed wherever) and focus on product management and distribution.
    This is good, as the concept of capitalism itself will change- it will be more distributed.
    That is not to say that no one will build companies like MS anymore- they will, but, the exits will become more varied and interesting.

    shan Reply:

    “the nature of innovation has changed.. in many areas, it is now possible to innovate out of the big companies”
    It is happening as we write , all over the “western world”. first a personal experience then a real life experience. I had filed for a patent for a contraceptive device. I was told by my patent lawyer to make rounds before the patent is actually granted. The patent granting process takes one to two years.
    I met the people from Schering , but coudn’t convince them. The specialist screen with motion sensor in I phone is supplied by a german company, the audio circuit is from Cambridge audio , a spin off from cambridge university.This is why when I phone caused an earthquake in terms of sales , fund managers were gorging on the amount that cambridge audio will make and its effect on cambridge audio shares.
    same with another very small , well tiny compared to Intel , AMD or Broadcom , STC etc. This is ARM another british company , WHICH FORMS THE CORE of all Intel processors , and all samsung and according to the article in PC Pro , almost each and every electronic gadget.
    Now something from my own speciality. Pfizer , used to market and still does market adrug called Tolteridine. Now this is PRO DRUG, that means this is not the active molecule , when it is converted in liver bt cytochrome P40 , it becomes the active molecule festerodine. Now a very small company Schwarz Pharma , synthesised this molecule festerodine and put up for trial. Pfizer jumped on them with a patent infrimgement suit, then thought raher paying the lawyers , DECIDED TO BUY SCHWARZ PAHRMA , and now markets Festerodine under its name.

    shan Reply:

    @ashish, forgot to mention DLP, digital light processing. This is a Texas Instrument invention licensed only to mitsubishi (god knows why) , though there is more to the DLP tv , as it uses colour wheel and micro mirrors. I had bought one from USA from MODIS a 70 inch Tv , but getting the tv across was like moving a mountain. Also incredible YOU CANNOT PAY UNLESS YOU HAVE AN AMERICAN BANK CREDIT/DEBIT CARD. I managed to overcome that , but getting it across the atlantic proved impossible or prohibitory. Also a stupid person will only deride internet. Entire medical research is based on internet though you need special access with password like national health library for NHS, so less porkys from now on.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @bobby , first answer, then some questions for you. Regarding your understanding about management being a hierarchical pyramid , where the bottom of the runk is treated like serfs IS TRUE , but only in UK and INDIA. This is one of the major reason for england’s decline , mangement is s h i t . Same with India. But it is not so with USA , Germany or Japan. In USA , the unions are not a wing of political party , their names are Teamsters and the like , but they are bloody powerful. In its heyday american shopfloor workers used to enjoy benefits that is unimaginable. In germany , there is workers council and there is open suggestion box for any employee to make any suggestion , and this is true for Volkswagon and I am sure most of german company operate like this.And Japan is legendary with company uniform which is same for MD to shop floor, same canteen. Morita mentions in his book about a japanese electronics company who were having lot of defective products. One female worker suggested that there was a train line nearby and perhaps the vibration was causing it. They simply didn’t dismiss it because she is an ordinary shop floor worker, the company dug a ditch all around and filled with water to prevent the vibration getting through, all defective manufacturing stopped.

    Now some questions. Given your background please enlighten us as to the state of know how in indian nuclear industry. So much drum beating about FAST BREEDER REACTOR , why is india DESPERATE for USA, RUSSIA, FRANCE to help with technology. Also we have been sold that KOVALAM beach is full of THORIUM and it can be converted to uranium if not directly thorium can be used as FUEL RODS in reactors , SO WHY IS THIS BEGGARY TO ALL THE NATIONS.Your response will be much appreciated

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Given your background please enlighten us as to the state of know how in indian nuclear industry. So much drum beating ….”

    Dear Shan, this is not my background. I work in theoretical physics–pure science not applied science. I have nothing to do with nuclear industry.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , you do not have background in so mant things like ayodha and vivekananda, but you are entitiled to your opinion. I would like you know your views/opinion in matters referred to in my posting.
    A cowbelt university graduate’s opinion counts as much as a togadia opinion., it’s not the same with yours.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shan,

    My knowledge about the state of Indian Nuclear industry and Indian nuclear technological levels is very very poor. Next to zero.

  • shan

    Dr Liam Fox(GP turned politician ) is coming to delhi to push for 11 billion(yes you have read it correct) contract to supply 126 Eurofughter Typhoon. Will the salesman from cowbelt university like inform us bloggers what is innovation ecosystem doing , chewing khaini.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    I have been talking about the deep and wide reach of extremist Islam in “God’s Own Country” Kerala.

    The latet issue of Outlook magazine (29th) has an op-ed by Shrideep Biswas “In God’s Own Country”. (web page 23rd) Read it. Worry about it. And do something about it. Otherwsie Kerala will be a Kashmir; along with that they will spread mayhem and havoc in stretches of Tamil Nadu, UP, Bihar etc..

    Ashish recently indicated the menacing confluence of Maoists and these Islamic militants. It looks like this PFI/SDPI is followng that playbook.

    And, as ususal, our government will be asleep at the switch, arguing state vs centre, police vs cbi..

    Kerala will be a “gone” case unless these groups are banned and the associated people are put in jail.

    And, as I have said many times before, there is no Sangh Parivar or BJP here, there is no Muslim poverty here, there is no lack of Muslim education. So, let us not go in that direction.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sangh parivar is there.these criminals knows well that only way to reach corridor of power,is to ignite communal roits like in gujrat.there is no islamic millitant anywhere in india.hidu terrorist have infitratrated all parties except cpm.they are fully capable of doing anything they want anywhere in india.6 trucks loaded with explosive have disappeared in bjp run madhya pardesh.where they have gone.india is reeling under the horrores of brhmnsm.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    In 2006, India graduated 2.22 lakh engineers. And most experts on Indian education agree that, at best, only half the engineers who graduate from Indian colleges are employable by technology company.
    The above is a cut and paste from an article in todays HT. Innovation ecosystem as trumpetted by the salesman form cowbelt university, cow belt or not the saga continues , read this in conjunction with my above post about Dr Liam Fox.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan dont worry,

    Indian scientists worst offenders at faking research

    Indian scientists are more likely to cheat when reporting scientific results than scientists from other countries, says a new study in the US — a view endorsed by independent reviews. Anika Gupta reports

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    binoy gopi and shan, HINDUS LOVE JEWS
    Hinduism called the indigenous peoples as evil deserving of every excess and injury. Hinduism has not changed despite 1,000 years of Muslim and British rule. Hinduism is the nemesis of every other faith in the world today which are more or less egalitarian. Perhaps the only faith that comes close to Hinduism is the modern-day Zionist Judaism. Jews like Brahmins are both ‘chosen people’ given to cheat, betray and torment all the other peoples. But the Jewish world did not overlap the Hindu world until the 20th Century.
    Now the alliance of Jews and Brahmins is a formidable force as both employ ruses and stratagem as the prime instrument for getting their way.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    MR VIJAY SHAN AND GOPI,

    HINDUISM IMPOSED ON BAHUJANS
    The indigenous peoples of India now call themselves Bahujans which means the majority people. After the Aryan conquest they suffered for thousands of years as serfs of conquering Aryans who imposed on them a religion called Hinduism that robbed them of their identity and their faith. Apartheid and untouchability are not just evil practices, the varna (caste hierarchy) system is an article of faith — perhaps the prime article of Hinduism. Hatred is the religious duty of every practicing Hindu. The situation of the Bahujan is like the serfs.
    That was until the advent of Muslim rule over South Asia, which lasted 800 years. Under Muslim rule, repression of the Bahujan became impossible as the non-working priest caste (Brahmins) became impoverished and the caste of fighters could survive only as soldiers in the service of the new rulers. The Bahujan flourished under Muslim rule because they were workers and were eventually employed as fighters by the Muslims as well as the British. In the 17th Century the Mughal Empire in India accounted for 25% of the GDP of the world. No wonder it was so much sought after by European colonial powers and ended up being a ‘Jewel in the British Crown’.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    some pedophile also imposed arab moon god religion onto to peaceful makkah and madinah residents..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Hinduism is neither strange to paedophilia nor is it to imposition of its own religious beliefs upon others.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Latest on terrorism by Muslims in USA–

    A young Somali Muslim boy was arrested for planning a big attack on Portland. His plan was to explode the bomb durung the new year celebrations.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Is this terrorism by Muslims or Islamists. Or for you the two are the same?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    they have destroyed their country.dont forget.he was only planning.

    [Reply]

  • http://techcentral.in Kunal

    “Spectacular” 26/11 attack on Mumbai ?

    There are hundred other adjectives to use when you describe those attacks. I don’t think spectacular is one of them.
    You have probably used it to stir up trouble, hoping you would get some comments on it. Shame on you and your articles.

    [Reply]

  • S S Bali

    In order to understand the Islamic Terror we have to understand the individual psychology of a Muslim and Mob Psycology of the Muslims.
    When you meet the individual single Muslim he will be the pariah of peace and will speak big things of peace and understanding and respecting all religions. He will also listen and understand very well criticism about the Islam if it is well meant.
    But the moment Muslims are in a Mob, each will try to elbow out the other to prove that he is more stubborn and orthodox musl;ims than the other. If you express even a little positive criticism of Islam the same Muslim who individually listened and understood the deficiencies of Islam will pound on you to get the first chance to kill you!! Not that he does not agree with your views, but to take the credit from other muslims and to prove to fellow Muslims that he is more devout than the others!!!!
    Till we change the Mob behaviour of the Muslims Islamic terror could not be defeated.

    [Reply]

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  • http://community.lawyers.com/members/453598/default.aspx

    Habit with him was all the test of truth, ”It must be right: I”ve done it from my youth”….

    The game, he said, is never lost till won….

  • Ramesh

    The space for dissent will shrink further if BJP-RSS have their way. The record of their vahinis and senas is eloquent enough to require elaboration. Trinamool, though ideologically poles apart on one level, is the latest addition to this family

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, we all know BJP-RSS have all the power in this country. Poor Robert Vadra has to live under constant pressure from them…

    [Reply]

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    marine biology…

    Islamist terror: Where are we now? : They Call Me Muslim…