Advanji-ji, why link Ayodhya with azadi?



No leader of contemporary India intrigues and interests me more than LK Advani. He appears at once a man with immense wisdom and understanding of our country. Yet this understanding is not one which everyone can naturally relate to — nor is it designed to be such. I, therefore, feel restless in critiquing and questioning this understanding in the manner the younger generation often questions the old.

Penning his thoughts on the Ayodhya judgement, BJP leader LK Advani fondly recalled the symbolism and significance of rebuilding the Somanth temple after Independence, which was destroyed by Muslim kings. Read Advani’s blog here.

He writes: “It is therefore only natural that, when India became independent, many Hindus felt that 1947 should signify not only freedom from British rule but also a clean break from those aspects of the pre-British history that were identified with subjugation, assaults on Hindu temples, vandalizing idols and erosion of our noble cultural traditions.”

Why appropriate an utterly religious meaning to our hard-worn Independence?

This is not to say that India’s freedom struggle never suffered from opposing views. Three of our founding fathers – Gandhi, Nehru and Bose — often argued, debated and differed about how to go about freeing the country from foreign rule.

This is not to say either that religion has never shaped their visions. Gandhi’s idea of tolerance and secularism did not mean a denial of religious values. His call for Ram Rajya was not a literal Hindu manifestation of the ‘rule of Lord Ram’ but a prevalence of Lord Ram’s abiding principles of justice.

Bose, on the other hand, remarked that India will never be a “Godless society”.

Gandhi wept during a visit to the Vatican, emphasized catholic renunciation and recommended a reading of the Koran.

A devout Hindu, Gandhi’s idea was to point out the similarity between the germane values of all religions; Mr Advani’s efforts have been to emphasize the distinctness of Hinduism.

Mr Advani’s thoughts in his blog beg this question: Why link up the Ayodhya-Babri complex with our azadi (literally, freedom, and politically, India’s freedom movement)?

Was the attainment of our freedom a mere victory over temple-razers, who operated in an era when the concept of secular, cohesive nationhood would have been preposterous?

Advanji-ji, you talk about our freedom as a “clean break” from assault on Hindu temples. Why, then, the assault on a mosque?

Is there, in your view, any justification for penalizing Muslims of today for barbarism of the past? Why apply standards expected of a modern state and individuals to medieval actors and emperors?

Why was your Ram Janmabhumi movement – from Somnath to Ayodhya – allowed to be loaded with such anti-Muslim import?

Why should Independence have a different meaning for you? Such essentialising of the freedom struggle is to betray its very meaning and reject its common character.

India’s freedom, in the narrowest sense, was indeed relief from British rule. But in its widest sense, was it freedom from assaults on India’s temples or its predominant Hindu culture from Muslims? This is a reductionist view that constricts the meaning of Independence.

In its broadest sense, our attainment of freedom established our incontrovertible right to choose our destiny — that of a modern nation-state, secular and democratic.

Please do not forget, Free India was the culmination of collective aspirations.

India’s story has been, sadly, a story of competing visions of nationalism. In the popular imagination, the movement for a Ram temple has always been understood as a clash between Hindus and Muslims. Or is it?

Is it not the clash between Hindutva and secularism as two opposing ideas of India; between a few who are un-reconciled to our founding ideal of secularism and many who believe in it?

It is tempting to contrast Mr Advani’s articulation of our freedom’s meaning with that of Prime Minister Nehru’s.

Nehru heralded our midnight’s freedom in his famous “Tryst with Destiny” speech thus: “This is no time for petty and destructive criticism, no time for ill will or blaming others. We have to build the noble mansion of free India where all her children may dwell.”

In my view, Advani has expended a large part of his immense political potential trying to build a temple, instead of the “noble mansion” Nehru talked of.

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  • shan

    @Zia, given my background , emotion has no part to play when deciding on someone’s life. I went to Advani’s blog, the first few lines gives an inkling the devopement of his mind set, here is cut and paste
    spent the first twenty years of my life in Karachi. The only two languages I became conversant with during that period were my mother tongue Sindhi, and the language I had my education in, English.

    Because of my fondness for films, I could somewhat understand Hindi and also speak some broken Hindi, but I could neither read Hindi nor write it.

    In September 1947, a month after partition, I came over to this part of the country. The next one decade 1947 – 1957 I worked as an RSS pracharak in different parts of Rajasthan.

    Being a total ignoramus in so far as the Devanagri script was concerned, weighed heavily on my mind. I spent a lot of time first familiarizing myself with the Devanagri alphabet and then reading as many Hindi books as I could
    SO WHAT DOES IT SAY , one word PARTITION which made him a REFUGEE.
    And who is responsible FOR TWO NATION THEORY and who voted for MUSLIM LEAGUE UNANIMOUSLY.. Also when he says 1947 saw freedom of HINDUS , he is right, think about it , in MUGHAL TIMES did muslims consider themselves SUBJECTS.
    Though you have won me over with your lines.

    “Is there, in your view, any justification for penalizing Muslims of today for barbarism of the past? Why apply standards expected of a modern state and individuals to medieval actors and emperors?”
    A FAULT ADMITTED IS HALF REQUITTED

    [Reply]

    shaik Reply:

    My friend the mughals have ruled india for so many years but the fact that Hinduism exist is in itself evident that those princely rulers would not have tried any barbaric methods to destroy the values and cemetics of hinduism during their rule.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @shaik, india didn’t become islamistan because it was too vast , with a huge population , whereas colonisers from turkey, herat, etc where at most few thousands away from the base, just like the british rule didn’t make india a phillipines(colonised by spanish , named after its king Philip , converted en masse to catholocism). As to the gentle , meek and kindness of their soul , please reflect on names Timur Lung , Nadir shah , and Kala Pahar, and aurangzeb receiving sikh gurus head on a platter.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    That is because there is not enough time to kill or convert millions of people. They were all killers, killing and rapping and looting.. No indian king ever invaded anything outside the Indian periphery,

    [Reply]

    bitter truth Reply:

    What a strange! A RATIONALIST Shan advocating the cause of fascist Sangh parivar and believing the false version of history propagated by Mother of fascism, the Sangh parivar. Mr. Shan have you ever tried to enquire about the truth of mandir demolition by muslim kings? You are just another fascist lover in the garb of rationalist. Do not be Kuen ka medhak, try to read old version of history, not the sangh propaganda. And regarding partion how do you endorse MJ Akbar version of partition when you hate him. Try to read about partition written by neutral historians, not by submissive conressies.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bitter , not truth. Just because shan is rationalist , doesn’t join the bandwagon of secularism, a masque for hypocrisy. The same shan has shred sangh parivar to bits when it deserved.
    As to partition my source is Patrick French “Liberty or death”. Here are few lines to remove the darkness of your ignorance,
    page114, “there was a radical new edge to jinnah as he realised he was gaining serious POPULAR support among muslims across northern india.
    page 119, “i have no hesitation in saying that it is Mr Gandhi who is destroying the ideal with which the congress was started . he is the one man responsible for turning the congress into an instrument FOR THE REVIVAL OF HINDUISM. his ideal is to revive the hindu religion and establish HINDU RAJ in the country …”. no this tirade is not directed at RSS , nor that ganghi is Indira gandhi and the person making those remarks is Jinnah at patna december 1938.
    page 169, “Sir sikandar hayat khan was never a beleiver in the version of the muslim homeland that finally emerged….privately he referred to pakistan as jinnistan and told the secretary to the governor of the punjab Penderel Moon PAKISTAN WOULD MEAN A MASSACRE , since muslims in west punjab would soon CUT THE THROAT OF EVERY HINDU BANIA”. let bitterness gave way to rationality.

    [Reply]

    bitter truth Reply:

    Do you know that in 1984, then RSS chief Balasaheb Deoras had said that there is no alternative to Congress. Means there is no party better than Congress to protect and let propagate the Sangh ‘ideology of hate’. This forum is not to discuss the responsilbilty and share of partition. But one think is clear that rational Shan advocates the hate philosphy of Sangh parivar and believes in their version of medival (muslim) history of India. Mr. Shan if the muslim rulers had been so brute as told by Sangh parivar and believed by you, hindus would not have been in majority in India and you would not have been here to comment.

    shan Reply:

    @bitter , scroll downwards and you will find the answer you are looking for in my posting.

  • S Singh

    For a man who saw brutality closeby, had to leave his homeland for fear of life (that Muslims will kill him) — what is wrong with him in making sure “never again”.

    And Zia misleads as ususal –one would think that Advani was a leader of freedom movement, along with Nehru and Gandhi. And somehow Advani took a different course. Advani is the product of greed of Nehru. A greed that split people from people, brought the monsters out, one that Advani watched in front of his eyes when he was a youngster.

    Advani has never brought the theories of religious supeirority, has never said Muslims do not belong to India. He has said ancient monuments and temples have to be reclaimed and rebuilt. Which proud nation woulnt want its history preserved?

    He bears the moral responsibility for demolishing the babri mosque. But Babri mosque is no Mecca.

    Traveling from Somnath to Ayodhya, for Advani, who lost relatives and property ina “personalized’ Muslim attack, was a personal pilgrimage, one of rebirth.

    While it is fashionable to criticize based on abstracts, as they say in the west, how we will behave if we walked in his shoes? A man whose rich family holdings were left behind for fear of ones own life, a man who saw his family members massacred, a man who took a train to see that half of the passengers heads have been cut off. An ordinary man will say never again. Not all are Gandhis.

    And Advani is no national leader, people liek Zia portarry him as a national leader so they can play the secular rubic cube. He is an ordinary man leading a marginalized political party.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sentimental hogwash.

    Advani was not the only person who lost relatives and property as a result of Partition.

    Neither was such attrocities restricted to one side.

    Rebirth, my foot.

    [Reply]

    ramesh Reply:

    THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY MUSLIMS HAS NO COMPARISON.THE NO OF HINDUS IN PAKISTAN AT THE TIME OF PARTITION AND TODAY IS ENOUGH PROOF.
    WE TEND TO FORGET HINDUS OF KASHMIR VALLEY.
    LATEST EX IS ONE SMALL VILLAGE IN WEST BENGAL,WHERE DURGA PUJA WAS NOT CELEBRATED FOR SAME REASON .
    SO FOR GANDHI IS CONSIDERED HEWAS SITTING IN NOAKHALI WHEN LOT OF MASSACRE OF HINDUS WAS GOING ON IN PUNJAB.
    I ENTIRELY AGREE WITH ADVANI ,PAST MUST NOT BE REPEATED.
    A NATION ,THAT TEND TO FORGET ITS PAST WILL HAVE IT REPEATED. WE HAD, A SLAVERY OF AROUND 1000YRS.
    CAN ANYBODY NAME ANYOTHER COUNTRY WHO HAD BEEN SLAVE SO LONG.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Was there a point you were trying to make.

    S Singh Reply:

    @Ravi

    Ya.. TArocities have been tehre on both sides. However, the fact remains that Hindus did not want the country to be divided. muslims asked fotr it; and Muslims massacred Hindus. Hindus also killed Muslims.

    The only difference is that the Muslims who moved to Pakistan from India are still immigarnts there, “Mujahirs” whoa re looked down upon.

    Hinduus who moved from Pakistan to India are known as Indians …they do not have a name equivalent to “Mujahir”.

    Two of them became Prime Ministers of India.. When will a Mujahir become a leader of any significance in your country?

    And one beacme the leader of the opposition.

    A good record indeed.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    It is quite unfortunate Muslims constantly cry about a non-existent Hindwetta while Christians and Sikhs accomplish, achieve, and enjoy..

    In their focus on Hinweta , they lose focus on everything else. They become more marginalized.

    bitter truth Reply:

    And you cry about ‘muslim atrocities on hindus’ history, propagated by Sangh fascists. And you sanghis are making India super power by fighting for hypothetical Ram setu and mythical Rama and Krishna.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh.

    Totally disagree with almost every point you make.

    The story of Partition is more complex than – oh muslims wanted it. So did some Hindus. You are a simpleton

    Mohajirs in Pakistan are full citizens of Pakistan. They are politically organised and dominate Karachi politics. MQM is their party and it has ruled Karachi for over 30 yeras. Their leader lives in London.

    shan Reply:

    One Mohajir pakistani was Pm of pakistan , albeit by deceit, his name is MUSHARRAF

    shan Reply:

    The word mohajir means exile/refugee , they are citizen allright just second class. Also Biharis in Bangladesh who live a pig(deliberately used) life wants to immigrate to pakistan , will sell their soul to do so , BUT HAS BEEN STRENOUSLY DENIED THAT PASSAGE.So much for pakistan’s bleeding heart for pakistan.

    shan Reply:

    Sorry typo , for pakistan read , kashmir

    DUDE Reply:

    @ravi gander…….

    the point ramesh was trying to make was that you’re a k .no.b jockey!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    Before you make the point that Muslims were more brutal than the Hindus were, and therefore disproportionately greater number of Hindus lost their lifes than Muslims do.

    —————-From Wikipedia——————————————–

    Independence and population exchanges

    Massive population exchanges occurred between the two newly-formed states in the months immediately following Partition. Once the lines were established, about 14.5 million people crossed the borders to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after partition.

    About 11.2 million or 78% of the population transfer took place in the west, with Punjab accounting for most of it; 5.3 million Muslims moved from India to West Punjab in Pakistan, 3.4 million Hindus and Sikhs moved from Pakistan to East Punjab in India; elsewhere in the west 1.2 million moved in each direction to and from Sind.[citation needed] However, the net flow of Muslims since partition is from Pakistan to India. More Muslims in Pakistan have chosen to come and stay in India than Muslims in India have chosen to move to Pakistan.[10]

    The newly formed governments were completely unequipped to deal with migrations of such staggering magnitude, and massive violence and slaughter occurred on both sides of the border. Estimates of the number of deaths range around roughly 500,000, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 1,000,000.[11]

    ________________________________________________________________________

    [Reply]

    Sunil Reply:

    Before you go on .. The facts are facts Muslims created the partition and have been at war with non-muslims the world over.

    My family too were the victims of partition and then in Kashmir too. I understand Mr. Advani. We are not just talking of partition here but a 1,000 years of muslim oppression and the murder of 10’s of millions of Hindus during that time.

    You can’t just isolate what happened to 1947.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Abhi

    I totally agree with you.

    Ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir is a terrible blot on our country.

    I will be for rehabilitation of Hindus in Kashmir.

    sameer Reply:

    The migration of Pandits from Kashmir is a the saddest event in post independence India.Along with Pandits Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims migrated to Jammu,Delhi,Banglore and Goa but nobody seems to be bothered about their plight.The statistics show that among the civilians killed in kashmir in last 20 years 98% were Muslims and 2% non Muslims(this includes brutal killings my millitants).

    ram autar Reply:

    idea of dividing india came first came from lahori bania.then brhmnst rss.muslims were opposed to partition.rss,organiztion of brhmnz zoinists lead the blood bath of 1947.
    they were traind jewish zoinists and using same tactics to take arab jews to palestine.
    muslims were major sufferers.

    brhmnsm cannot survive without war and voilence.

    shan Reply:

    @Sameer, you should have kicked the ar se of gautam nawlakha , and tits up for Miss Roy(if she have any)

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Dear Zia,

    A very nice article.

    Two points. One is , from the article it seemed to me that you were saddened by what Advani said, or at least surprised. I wonder why? Given his background as an instigator of violence and his utter contempt for human life to get political mileage, are his views surprising?

    Advani is fraud par excellence.

    The other thing is that I feel perplexed by is the attitude of people in general, and journalists in particular, in giving any respect to a murderer like Advani.

    I never understood, why people like him and Modi or for that matter any of the jerks in the Sangh parivar are not treated with utter contempt by the media.

    I can understand, the corporate as sholes singing praises of Modi. They have a single minded devotion to money, so even if Modi had killed their own relatives, one can expect the corporate bosses to still lick his a ss. Like Henry Ford supported Hitler.

    Anyways, a nice article.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Modi has made Gujrat thrive. It today, may be the safest place for Muslims in india. Muslims are migrating there for jobs.

    In a land of corrupt politicians, he stands out.

    For you he is a killer. For many, he is a leader par-excellence, especially considering his peers in otehr states and in the center including the secualr queen Sonia Gandhi and her inept heir apparent the prince.

    Your question about media should be directed at why media is supporting Mrs Gandhia nd Rahul GAndhi? Why media supports the modern heriditary power inheritance, like the old caste system? Why is nobody questioning the inheritance menatlity in indian politics, whether Karunanidhi, Lalu, Indira/Sonia, Pawar, YSR, Gowda, the list goes on. No journalist has ever criticized this. So, you are asking that a man who rose on his own, delivering results be censured?

    And it seems you have all the solutions and proofs and legal knolwedge – in an earlier blog you mentioned the three judge panel was constitutionally wrong on their verdict. Now you say Modi is a killer. He has been elected by his consitutency. And there is a judicial system to punish the wrongdoers. Either believe in democracy and the judicial system, or suggest some other system that is better and work towards that. Just dont throw innuendos that Modi is a killer.

    [Reply]

    nura Reply:

    what has justice system done anything for anyone in India? It is only to decoration to imply that India is a democracy and a “just” society. That will be the day.

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    Modi is a killer only for those who forget Godhra, remember only Ahmedabad and call themselves “secular”. Most of them are religious zealots of one stripe or the other. In India of today, “secularism” has also become a “religion.”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Secularists = Liberals, say take relgion out of politics.

    India is for all its citizens, not just for Hindus.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Gujarat is thriving not because of Modi. It is the Gujarati entrepreneurship, which is abundance even outside of Gujarat. The Lalbhais, Sarabhais, the Adanis, the Ambanis and the ordinary Gujarats – the Mehtas, the Shahs, the Patels were there and showing their mark in all fields even before Modi was born or anyone had ever heard about him. By no stretch of imagination, the present day Gujarat is soley becuas eof 10years of Modi’s administration.

    Even if we were to grant him your contention today’s Gujarat is because of Modi only, he cannot wash away his acts of omission and commission during 2002, where more than 1400 innocent lives were lost. Where were his ‘famed’ administrative and political abilities then? He has taken oath several times to protect all the citizens. He failed miserably or was complicit. That is why is he is considered a pariah outside of Gujarat. Even the BJP ally, Nitish Kumar has had his way and refused a visa to him for Bihar.

    [Reply]

    HPN Reply:

    Today’s Gujarat is progressing because Modi rid it from everyday’s communal violence. He did it by the method of *** for tat. Would not there have been more deaths in last eight years if the old order of tolerance nay cowardice of one side continued?

  • Binoy Hegde

    Zia talks about Nehru, Gandhi, Subhash Bose as founding fathers and that they debated often – aka John Adams, jefferson, Washington as the founding fathers of US?

    Hahahah

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You mean he forgot to mention the Shalwarpehankars and Golimarkars, as founding fathers of India. Ha ha ha

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    No, i was laughing at the statements “Our FOIUNDING FATHERS constantly DEBATED…”

    We have political season going on here in US now..everybody quotes founding fathers,a nd what the founding fathers would have wanted etc.. I have never seen “founding fathers” (like in teh common usage in US) used in an Indian article…

    And there was never a “debate” as to what type of a country India/Indians wanted. The fight, if there was one., among Gandhi and Bose was on the means of achieving freedom – violent vs non violent – than what the country shoyuld look like after independence. The endless debate Jefferson and the oyther founding fathers of US had was about what type of a country, what type of citizenship, what should be individual’s and state’s rights etc..

    Nehru, as ususal, was a weiasel, only aimed at power, misusing the abundant affection Gandhiji had on his protege. I even suspect that he advised his daughter to keep the Gandhi name after her divorce, because as a smart politician he knew GAndhi is a barnd name that
    will survive milleniums, wheeras the Nehru name will crumble once posterity starts examining.

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    —– Is it a fact——-divorce—of INDIRA ?
    —– did never hear.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Yes, indira Gandhi divorced her husband Feroz Gandhi, a Parsi with a Muslim parent

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy hegde, It is not true , INDIRA GANDHI DID NOT “OFFICIALLY” DIVORCE HER HUSBAND, despite the fact the playboy was rumoured to be having an affair with one Miss Tarakeshwari Sinha of congress(Source Indira, a biography by Katherine French)

  • Ravi

    Forging of a Post Colonial National Identity.

    Every body, in addition to their personal identity, has a need to develop a larger communal/national identity. Postcolonial leaders through criticism of colonisers and celebration of fellow oppressed citizens forge an emerging national identity.

    Sadly, people like L. K. Advani felt it necessary to try and forge modern India’s identity around narrowly defined Hindu principles, rather than broader secular values.

    That is the L.K Advani tragedy.

    Postclonial India is continually shedding its old skin, it will be sad if the new skin was either coloured Green or Saffron. It needs to be wrapped around the tricolour.

    [Reply]

  • Johnson Thomas K

    The real test of independence is whether we are free from subservience created by the re-writing of Indian history by the British. You talk about the founding principle of secularism- My question is whether it is defined by the Constitution of India in a way it has defined the duties, functions, roles, powers, limitations etc of the Union and State Executives, Legislatures, Judiciaries or even the Civil Services.

    India cannot afford to have its cardinal constitutional principles left undefined for academics, ideologues, vested interests to interpret it to mean as appeasement for Divide and Rule. This was not the purpose of secularism. Another concept that is not defined in the Indian constitution is – you are right- socialism.

    What is socialism and secularism in constitutional parlance? This is the billion dollar question and not what you or I think personally.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Well I know what secularism is. Its bit like the british constitution, there is no written constitution in britain , it works on conventions, similarly SECULARISM has been applied with full force in case of hindus thus sweeping away each and every hindu law, to the benefit of the hindu people, like abolishment of child marriage, ALLOWING DIVORCE, EQUAL INHERITANCE FOR DAUGHTERS
    but when it comes to MUSLIMS they are within the ambit of secular laws in only PENAL MATTERS,
    REST OF ALL THAT CONCERNS THEM IS RING FENCED FROM THE SECULAR LAWS.
    AS for socialism it is essentially COMMAND ECONOMY, LICENSE PERMIT RAJ coupled with control of all the commanding heights of economy.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    I present here an excerpt from the Constitution of India.

    ____________________________________________________

    THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA

    (Part III.—Fundamental Rights.—Arts. 15-16.)

    15. (1) The State shall not discriminate against any
    citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place
    of birth or any of them.
    (2) No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race,
    caste, sex, place of birth or any of them, be subject to any
    disability, liability, restriction or condition with regard to—
    (a) access to shops, public restaurants, hotels and
    places of public entertainment; or

    (b) the use of wells, tanks, bathing ghats, roads
    and places of public resort maintained wholly or
    partly out of State funds or dedicated to the use of
    the general public.

    (3) Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from
    making any special provision for women and children.
    1[(4) Nothing in this article or in clause (2) of article 29
    shall prevent the State from making any special provision
    for the advancement of any socially and educationally
    backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes
    and the Scheduled Tribes.]

    2[(5) Nothing in this article or in sub-clause (g) of
    clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making
    any special provision, by law, for the advancement of
    any socially and educationally backward classes of
    citizens or for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled
    Tribes in so far as such special provisions relate to their
    admission to educational institutions including private
    educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by
    the State, other than the minority educational institutions
    referred to in clause (1) of article 30.]

    16. (1) There shall be equality of opportunity for all
    citizens in matters relating to employment or appointment
    to any office under the State.

    (2) No citizen shall, on grounds only of religion, race,
    caste, sex, descent, place of birth, residence or any of
    them, be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect
    of, any employment or office under the State.

    (3) Nothing in this article shall prevent Parliament
    from making any law prescribing, in regard to a class or
    classes of employment or appointment to an office

    _________________________________________________

    Please search and post sections of the constitution that support your statements. Or would you like us to accept your contentions on face value.

    [Reply]

    Bala Varadarajan Reply:

    Ravi, you obviously do not know all the facts. Are you aware that one of the things Adavani & Co have been fighting for is a common civil code. Muslims are governed by their personal laws which are administered by Muslim Personal Law Board over which our elected representatives have no control. Have you heard of the Sha-Bano case where the Supreme Court ruled that a Muslim man is obliged to pay support to his wife whom he divorced (apparently he can do that unilaterally). The court must have taken into account the various Human Rights covenants that India is a party to. But unfortunatley Rajiv Gandhi overruled that judgement with a legislation with retrospective effect. There is one effective way to neutralise the so called Hindutva movement. Have a common civil code and have the Muslims subject to the same laws. Will the Muslims agree ?

    Madhwa Reply:

    What are you smoking Naveed (and the rice bag convertee and abused by church paditris Ravi too)? The period between 13th and 18th century the “Golden era” of India? ROTFLMAO! It was the darkest period that not only killed Hindus in millions but also tried erasing the real golden past of India! What industrilaization and achievements of Muslims you ar etalking about? The nomadic, barbaric went on a destruction spree building hideous mosques and tombs. The era before these barbarians set foot in India, the scientific and creative thinking was at its best! Sanskrit, the most scientific language whose grammar forms the part of BNF grammar for all modern computer languages was invented in India several 1000 years ago! The tons of literature, very rich philosophies of DUalism, monism and attributed Dualism were all invented much before the onset of Muslims that tried destroying them. MAthematcis and astronomy originated in India that was spread by nomadic Muslims in Arabia! Man, your madrassa tells you that all the scientific achievements were invented by muslims and have you guys with your hideous, scary names and beards looked in the mirror? Realist is different…….

    Ravi Reply:

    Keep reading RSS pamphlets

    Sam Reply:

    What is the origin of Muslim personal law ?
    Was it before 1947 ? what form it was under British ?
    What form was it in Mughal times ?
    What form was it in Hindu kingdoms ?

    abhi Reply:

    Wonder what kind of “Constitutional protection” the minorities would have if India was a muslim majority country today? Would the Hindus in Pakistan (or the minorities in any other muslim majority country) serve as an appropriate precedent?

    Ravi Reply:

    Bala

    I have.

    The point I am making is that the Constitution does not enshrine those Laws. Those Laws were made extra constitutionally and were tested in supreme court.

    They are practiced and I wish they were not. But they do not alter the Constitution.

    That was the point of my post

    Ravi Reply:

    Abhi

    The fact that India was able to have a Muslim President is India’s greatness.

    Can you categorically suggest that in a Hindu India – whose constitution has been changed to reflect right wing Hindu aspirations – there would be a minorty President?

    I firmly believe that the answer is NO

    shan Reply:

    Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from
    making any special provision for women and children
    @ravi, stares mockingly at SHAH BANO.

  • Ravi

    Mr Thomas

    I am not sure I understand you, so will reserve judgement until I do.

    Your very first sentence suggests that our independence (i take it in the sense of Freedom of India), is some how dependant upon the re-writing of our history by the British. I thought our Indipendence became a reality the day British left India, 15th of August 1947 to be prcise. Or is there a hidden profundity here that I am not quite getting.

    Similarly, if state ownership of enterprises is allowed by the Indian constitution, then to a certain degree our constituion is socialist.

    “appeasement of divide and rule” what on earth can this mean. Do you mean that our constituion has an in-built appeaement of certain groups (namely Muslims and Dalits). In other words postive discrimination, eventual;ly divides people and facilitates illegitimate rule. However, the phrase “appeasement of Divide and Rule” is a strange phrase.

    Perhaps you can elaborate.

    [Reply]

  • Naveed Khan

    Calling Advani a leader is an insult to the great leaders of our land. He is an opportunist, a master of touching people’s raw nerve on religion. He staged Ram Janambhoombi, stirred up people’s emotions and then led to greatest communal divide since the partition of India. Leaders lead people, they unite them, they make them think of vision.

    Advani’s vision is communal, hatred, bigotry and elimination of Muslims of India. His tactics are divisive, violent and extreme violence. He justified pogrom of Muslims in 1992 and 2002. He made eloquent speeches urging his supporters for more blood. He stirred up Hindu religious fascism and there is no way he can put the “genie” back in the bottle. India of today is Hindu-Nationalist, driven by the fire of revenge against Muslims for their perceived atrocities.

    Hindu_Indians just see revenge and blood. They forget that India was one of the richest country during 13th to 18th Century. This was one of the Golden era’s of economic growth and industrialization and majority of it was under different Muslim Dynasties.

    In any other civilized Society, Mr. Advani would be jail on charges ranging from inciting crowd to violence to planning for the massacre of Minorities. But this is India, where a criminal thug is revered as a “Leader”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Well said

    [Reply]

    Madhwa Reply:

    What a cobvert that sold his soul for a few rice bags doing here? Dont you have to be on the altar to offre yourself to your padre?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Madhwa

    There is a street play that is performed in Sril Lanka. It shows a Brahmin with a huge phallus sticking out and is chasing young boys.

    Temple prostitutes in most large Hindu temples is a contemporary reality.

    I suggest you do not go there.

    S Singh Reply:

    @Naveed,

    I am glad with my India; you be glad with your Pakistan, OK.

    Zia calls Advani a leader. Advani does not call himselfa leader.

    Muslims and Muslims onlya re responsible if others hate them.

    It is a universal phenomenon. All over the world, people hate (or are more afraid) of Muslims. The wind of europe and US will come to india also if muslims continue to whine and not become a part of india.

    And NAveed, india of today is not a Hindu nationalist country. Unless you call Mrs Sonia Gandhi, an Italian by birth, and Roman Catholic by religion, and her party a hindu Natioanlistic party. There is no Hindu nationalistic party at a national level, unless you call BJP a Hindu nationalistic party.

    You tend to equate things happening in India to your comtry Pakistan. PAkistan will disappear because of their commitment to purist Islam and not teh country.

    India is vibrant, with or without BJP, with or without Congress, it will do wll. Foundations are in place. Youth is energized. Middle class is soaring. And theya re all determined to protect India and its heritage. Politicians know that the sense of belonging, longing for preserving history etc take shape when economy improves. So, they will continue to play “never again”.. That is politics. Congress will play that card, BJP will play that, regional parties will play..

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    “Calling Advani a leader is an insult to the great leaders of our land. He is an opportunist, a master of touching people’s raw nerve on religion. He staged Ram Janambhoombi, stirred up people’s emotions and then led to greatest communal divide”

    An observation – Replace Advani with Jinnah and Ram Janmabhoomi with Direct Action Day. Its amusing how the same body of thoughts fits perfectly for the two :-)

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    —– both are from KARACHI–SAME RACE –

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    I would like to know whether “hatred and bigotry” are attitudes that are practised only by hindus in their attitudes towards muslims, or can we talk of “hatred and bigotry” of muslims in their attitude towards hindus as well?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Abhi

    You are absolutely right.

    Hatred and bigotary no matter who practices it is bad and should be resisted.

    So Hindu hatred towards Muslims is bad as is Muslim hatred towards Hindus.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Calling Jinnah a leader is even more bad than Advani is a leader.
    Jinnah did 100 times more violence than any hindu leader can imagine..

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    The intention was not to call Jinnah as a leader, it was about drawing attention to the fact that all it takes is replacement of few words and there are several fingers pointing at those in Pakistan who badmouth Indian leaders.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sam

    Can you tell that to Jaswant Singh and oh I am sorry, while you are the telling mode can you mention that to L.K. Advani as well.

    [Reply]

    Madhwa Reply:

    What are you smoking Naveed? The period between 13th and 18th century the “Golden era” of India? ROTFLMAO! It was the darkest period that not only killed Hindus in millions but also tried erasing the real golden past of India! What industrilaization and achievements of Muslims you ar etalking about? The nomadic, barbaric went on a destruction spree building hideous mosques and tombs. The era before these barbarians set foot in India, the scientific and creative thinking was at its best! Sanskrit, the most scientific language whose grammar forms the part of BNF grammar for all modern computer languages was invented in India several 1000 years ago! The tons of literature, very rich philosophies of DUalism, monism and attributed Dualism were all invented much before the onset of Muslims that tried destroying them. MAthematcis and astronomy originated in India that was spread by nomadic Muslims in Arabia! Man, your madrassa tells you that all the scientific achievements were invented by muslims and have you guys with your hideous, scary names and beards looked in the mirror? Realist is different…….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Navid Khan , utter bollocks and brazen falsehood, Jehangir was so insular , apparently NEVER SEEN SEA IN HIS LIFE TIME, that is why India never had a naval force thus all the FIRINGEE landed at will. And when Aurangzeb was receiving the HEAD OF SIKH GURU on a platter , RENAISSANCE WAS TAKING PLACE IN EUROPE. colonisers justifiably have no interest in the welfare of natives.

    [Reply]

    Bala Varadarajan Reply:

    Naveed, what are you implying. India owes its prosperity to the Moghul dynasty. So we should go back to the prosperous times by embracing Islam, Sharia, burqua and the like. For your information, India had a rich and fluorishing civilisation thousands of years before the birth of Islam. During the Gupta period, science, mathematics and literature fluorished. More importantly it was extremely tolerant and allowed many religions to prosper. Have some respecxt for an ancient civilisation.

    [Reply]

  • http://digitalblogindia.in Kunal

    Totally biased article. There must be thousands of temples which have been destroyed by Mughal rulers across India. Today’s muslims are not at fault for this, but there is no reason to play the minority card. Giving away one mosque which has been unused for years and which has a prominent position in Hinduism should have be considered by the Muslim board. They should have had talks and agreed to which places of worship need to be converted, and which should be preserved as historical.

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    I think if the “seculars” will stop playing the minority card, this fire will douse by itself.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I think as soon as Hindu Fundos stop playing the Hindu card, this fire will douse by itself and sooner.

    [Reply]

    SG Sak Reply:

    Well said.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Kunal

    No one is denying that 1000’s of temples were destroyed by Mughals.

    Equally many Buddhist?Jain?Hindu temples were destroyed by Hindu Kings, bothe here in India as well as in the rest of south east asia.

    As soon as BJP stops playing the Hindu Card, Congress will stop playing the minority card.

    Let us clean our politics of religion and recast it around economic principles.

    Free BJP from unwanted RSS influence.

    [Reply]

  • http://HindustanTimes K V Joshi

    Indian constitution does not offer same rights to every one. If you are Hindu certain laws are applied; if you are muslims other laws are applied. So it is necessary to rewrite Indian constitution so everyone lives under the same rule. Would that happen? I doubt it.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The constitution of Inida is available online.

    I would like to see which clauses amount to what you are suggesting.

    [Reply]

  • Bhaskar Chatterjee

    Zia,

    You should do research on Somnath temple rebuilding and how Gandhiji, Sardar Patel supported it. Same logic applies to Ayodhya as well.

    The Somnath temple signifies that the power of reconstruction is always greater than the power of destruction.

    I am surprised you opposing Somnath, Ayodhya reconstruction. These are very significant religious places of natives Indians and destroyed repeated by Islamic invaders precisely because of their importance. A free nation will always rebuild it.

    Associating today’s Muslims feeling with destruction in the past is wrong. They were destroyed by foreign invaders. I would think, most Indian Muslims will understand and share the pain people had to go thro’ during those dark days.

    [Reply]

  • Bharat.Manch

    Another Headline is “Lashkar behind Sikh massacre in Kashmir in 2000, says Headly”.
    Can the intelligent gissippers like Jazia try to find a link between RSS and the above incident? Why blaming Pakistan? Anti-nationals are here to make selling news.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    “Lashkar behind Sikh massacre in Kashmir in 2000, says Headly”.

    Is’nt Laskhar an RSS wing, disguised to create religious hatred between Sikhs and Muslims ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You said it. RSS in India = Let in Pakista.

    Both hide by charoty work sinister elements of their fascist policies. RSS leader was only yesterday Charge Sheeted in Jaipur

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Bharat Manch.

    Sorry do you only read Newspaers on Sundays.

    For had you read it on Saturday, you would have read that a RSS leader has been charge sheeted in Jaipur.

    Come to think of it, if my memory serves me right there is huge suspicion on Mr Modi’s involvement in Ahemadabad riots.

    Safforn terorism is a contemporary reality and Hindu violence a historical fact.

    [Reply]

  • Rameshwarreddy

    Dear Zia,
    You being a jouranlist automatically puts you in the category of Congress mouth piece.
    You call Nehru the founding father of India.
    It is Indias misfortune to have an opportunist and greedy person who was instrumental in Partition and also the resulting massacre of Muslim and Hindu in 1947 called the founding father. Muslims and Hindus were living in harmony during the british rule but Nehru orchestrated partition changed that for ever.
    The offsprings of Nehru were cunning enough to later exploit this division orchestrated by Nehru as their winning weapon in the elections.
    The fact is Nehru and his family did nothing really constructive for India. Dont believe me, visit any chinese city, Check how many Olympic medals the chinese win, Look at their economy.
    And mind you at the time of Indias independence India and China were almost at par with each other.
    And about Advani he was never a great leader. Infact India never ever had a great and unselfish leader.
    We had some hopes from a person like Narender Modi whose biggest advantage is that he dont have a family of his own for whom he should indulge in corruption like all of our leaders do.
    But Modi messed up the handling of the unfortunate and tragic aftermath of the infamous Godhara massacre. The incident fully exploited by cunning Congress to turn the ballet into its favour. As usual.
    If you take out that episode from Modi he appears the be the best hope for India.
    Also the fact that he wins the elections easily including the latest muncipality elections proves that inspite of the Godhara episode even the Gujarati Muslim brothers vote for him.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I am sure this guy lives some where, not any place I know. May be it is Hindu Fundo Land

    [Reply]

  • Satish Haldankar

    L K Advani has turned out to be the pointsman of a divisive and hate agenda, which consolidated the Hinduvtva vote-bank. and legitimized through the electoral process. However, he and his associates in the Sangh Parivar have shown a absence of any political and social foresight on number of counts. The reason is not far to seek. It is the acceptance Golwalkar’s ideology, which prevents a world view other than seen through the saffron-tainted glasses. They pay only lip-service to democracy, secularism and all-inclusiveness.

    The two examples of the shortsightedness demonstrated by Advani and his fellow travellers are.

    1) The infamous rath yatra, the riots that followed in the aftermath and concluding with the destruction of the Babri Masjid. In the short term the strategy paid rich dividends. It and the party managed 182 seats in 1998/99, albeit with the help of 20+ coalition partners, as it seemed the nation had forgiven them for their dastardly actions.

    2) This apparent forgiveness made them even more brazen and the result was Gujarat 2002. They again came to the same conclusion that over a period of time the nation would be benevolent enough to forgive them once more and the yatra would continue forever.

    Till date there has been no iota of remorse, no apology forthcoming and no attempts to dispense justice and apply the healing balm.

    Where did he go wrong? One – total miscalculation that the consolidation of Hindutva vote would more than offset the loss of support of the minorities and the liberals. Two – his unequivocal backing of Modi till date, which helped the BJP win Gujarat, but have lost India for decades to come.
    The compelling reason that he cannot jettison Modi is because Modi is a pointsman in Gujarat.
    How can a nation trust a person, who does not learn the lessons of history and his judgment is clouded by his commitment to an divisive ideology. There have been numerous instance since then that makes him more and more suspect in the eyes of the people of India. Divisiveness and hate does not pay in the long run.

    Since then, Advani’s statements and actions have to be seen always with reference to the above two events. Whatever the public posturing, he is totally committed to the establishment of a theoretic Hindu rashtra, one of the symbols of which the building of ‘bhavya’ Ram.mandir, in the process also telling the non-Hindutvadis their place in their scheme of things.

    He has not helped himself on number of occasions – Varun Gandhi, Nuclear Deal, personal attacks on the Prime Minister to cite a few..

    As you have rightly concluded he has wasted his life to promote a idea of India that is not all-inclusive, secular and democratic I have always taken his statements that are in conformity to the Idea of India as enshrined in the Constitution with a kilo of salt.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Totally agree

    [Reply]

    chandra Reply:

    totally disagree

    [Reply]

    Ashu Reply:

    Your grouse against Advani is a justified one. But whats not justified is the raw deal he receives from the Media and from the “self proclaimed” upholders of the “secular” values. I dont stand by what Mr Advani preaches, but i am irritated when the liberal media and intellectuals choose to again and again put him under the scanner , deliberately ignoring the rotting away of similar values by the hands of the various leaders around him. What was Digvijay Singh doing standing in support of the terrorists killed in batla house encounter. Even the supreme sacrifice of MC Sharma couldnt shake him from the ideological comma he has deliberately let himself slip into . For every Varun Gandhi , i see a Mulayam singh Yadav and laloo yadav openly supporting a terrorist Group SIMI. Does the print media , intellectuals , or secularist give them as much air time or print space targeting them on their standings on these issues.
    Being inclusive is very important and upholding the rights of the minorities , caring about their well being is ,and should be , of utmost importance . But then decrying the name of a great religion by reporting the wrong doings of some twisted minds under the name of “Hindutva ” is very depressing . Media is very quick to say that terrorism has no religion but colonel purohit becomes an exponent of hindutva terror and the likes of Narendra modi come under the “Saffron” Brigade. Thats bigotry at its worst. . Nowhere , absolutely nowhere do i see the term “Green Terror ” being used to describe the nefarious activity of Islamic terrorist.
    These are tough questions and not even a kilo of salt can takeoff there bitter edge. Can someone please step up and clear this up for me ?

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    My apologies for not noticing your reply to my post earlier.

    The apparent reason why Advani gets a lot more bad press, because of his position and standing in the BJP, the largest opposition party and for the fact that here was a man who would have been a great statesman with positive contribution in the service of the country, which is debatable.

    Why doesn’t the media does not blast Digvijay Singh for any controversial statements, even I wonder.

    See elsewhere on this forum, I have slammed all these charlatans – Mulayam, Lalu, Mayawati and many like them. Moreover, I do not hold any brief for organisations like the SIMI and any terrorists outfits.

    Using phrases like Safron terror was a nomenclature and we should treat as such. I have no problem with use of phrases like Saffron terror, Green terror or any other term to distinguish between various sources of terror. Of course terror is terror, whatever be the source.

    However, as this blog is about Advani, we should restrict ourselves to discussing him.

    Regards
    Satish

    [Reply]

    Ashu Reply:

    Thanks for the Reply !
    You come across as a very logical person having a rational viewpoint. I sincerely hope that my arguments manage to leave an imprint on you. As you say “we should restrict ourselves to discussing him” . Over the years , the negative publicity he has received as played a huge role in forming the public opinion of him as a hate monger , and while “discussing him ” , we cant ignore this part of his political legacy.
    We cant brush aside the nomenclature used. An analogy can be drawn , Could the offensive racist terms , be treated as just nomenclature and be ignored . Off course NOT . Terror is terror and it has no religion . But sometimes people , due to some twisted mentality , try to strengthen their secular credentials by attacking the RSS and BJP . I see absolutely no reason how the name of SIMI and RSS be drawn in a single breadth while discussing terrorism . RSS doesnt have a clean slate and some rogue elements have brought bad name to it . But while SIMI’s sole agenda has been to “attack the indian state” , RSS is well renowned in providing humanitarian Aid during the times of natural disasters.
    You have rightly pointed out that “The apparent reason why Advani gets a lot more bad press, because of his position and standing in the BJP, the largest opposition party”. Using the same logic , the people who are in the govt . and who hold much larger sway on the matters of national importance should be under the microscope . (A case in point can be mamta banerjee who openly sides with the Maoists. ) I am not trying to veer the discussion away from the topic . I am just trying to put things into a perspective , Advani’s negative perception included.
    Calling a spade a spade doesnt contribute to any ideological bias . The sooner the people understand this , the better it will be for India.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashu

    I understand the point you are trying to make. However, I completely disagree with it.

    Whilst SIMI is a deplorable organisation, it is a reaction to some thing and hardly comprable to RSS. You grossly underplay the negative impact RSS has on all that come across it.

    However, RSS should be compared with LeT from Pakistan.

    LeT does charitable work of feeding the poor and was responsible for significan work during the last earth quake in Pakistan, just as RSS does in India.

    The core ideology of both organisations is religious fundamentalism.

    Both organisations have the capcity and record of being violent, all be it their theatre of activity is different.

    One area where they are different is that LeT is a part of Pakistan States military apparatus, where as thank fully RSS is not a part of Indian Army. Though an ex Major did get himslef implicated in one violent incident.

    Your comment about Mamta Bannerji is totally reactionary, you need to spend some time understanding why the Maoist insurgency started and who is supporting it.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Ashu

    Couple of points

    1) Advani has not helped himself to erase his image as a divisive and a hate-monger. Here a few instances.

    (a) his dilly-dallying after Varun Gandhi made that infamous speech last year. He should have condemned it outright and not given him a BJP ticket.

    (b) His personal attacks on the Prime Minister – calling him weak and nikammaa, really put off people. Whether one likes him or not, the Prime Minister is considered to be a very decent, respected person with impeccable credentials.

    (c) Opposing the Nuclear deal for the sake of opposing forgetting the fact that it was the NDA government which initiated the deal in the first place.

    (d) his unequivocal support for Modi for the last 10 years. Modi on his part has been aggressive and doesn’t miss a opportunity to take on Congress Party as a Gujarat-vs-Delhi Sultanate confrontation, as if Central government is ruled by a some muslim emir. As far as I remember, whenever there have been riots in the Congress ruled states, the Chief Minister was always made to resign.

    (e) Can you recall any instances of the country witnessing Advani’s humane and softer side? I cannot.

    2) The less said about Mamta Bannerjee the better. I dread the day, when she becomes the Chief Minister of West Bengal, which is almost certain. It is going to be a disaster for West Bengal. She is already a disaster as a Railway Minister. The Congress Party is tolerating her on account of the compulsions of electoral politics. Mayawati is a megalomaniac and she is under some false illusion that she can single-handedly win a majority and become the Prime Minister. She has made no attempts to build bridges with other political parties. The sooner they are marginilsed the better it would be for the country. The aggression demonstrated by the likes of Modi, Mamta and Mayawati does not win friends and without friends you cannot occupy high positions of power.

    3) Agree, terror is terror. However, how do you distinguish between terror emanating from Naxalites, Mulsims, Hindus, from across the border and earlier from the Sikhs? For example, using the phrase saffron terror does not mean all Hindus are terrorists. The RSS gets upset because, it thinks it has sole rights over the saffron colour and also claim to represent all the Hindus, both of which are patently false.

    4) Your point about RSS doing great social and humanitarian work is fine, but does it give it licence to understake undesirable activities, which it has been accused of.? Imagine an underworld criminal doing great charity and social work, but that does not give him/her the right, and people to approve of, any criminal activities. The RSS hasn’t bothered to clean up its stables of the rogue elements from within its ranks. One can only guess why.

    Regards
    Satish

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Satish

    Divisiveness and hate plays very well in elections. Karunanidhi has been ruling here in Tamil Nadu for ages on a hate filled agenda that puts various electoral groups together against other groups . wasnt Mayawati’s a divisve and hate filled strategy?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    L Mirza

    One thing that is very common in these forums is that Congress shenanigans, are designed solely to appease the muslim community.

    No one acknowledges that BJP shenanigans are designed to solidfy the Hindu Fundo (a minorty among Hindus) votes.

    Like wise ever political party which participates in democratic elections employs Shenanigans, with a view to appease one section or another in order to wind votes.

    The problem is universal.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    That is the tragedy of India.

    Mayawati, Lalu, Mulayam and so om all indulge in the vote bank politics. The sad fact is that these leaders have come from backward communities, but have they done anything substantial for the very people they claim to represent? Nothing much. They have only enriched themselves and their own cronies.

    Ravi, the charges made by the loony brigade aka supporters of the RSS and in particular of Modi (found in abundance on the Internet) that anything negative about their heroes and beliefs is anti-Hindu, anti-national, minority vote bank politics and is the handiwork of the Congress Party or traitors is on expected lines. For them, their heroes can do no wrong and justifiable, including the very same things they accuse others of. The brand the media as the agents or in the pay of the Congress Party .whenever it publishes any negative news about the RSS They never wonder as why it gets such a bad press. They have been fed on history and current affairs as cooked by the RSS. All parties are guilty of vote bank politics, so it becomes a non-issue.

    These RSS supporters fail to see that the Congress Party, with all its faults and wrong doings, is the lesser of the two evils.

    Regards
    Satish

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Satish

    You too the words straight out of my mouth.

    Well summed up my friend.

    Regards

    Ravi

    shan Reply:

    @Satish, wellcome if only more and more , sanghvi , arundhuti roy et , al enrolled in our club of bloggers. A disclaimer , ONLY TOOLS USED WILL BE RATIONALITY AND OBJECTIVITY.
    Idealism is onething realism is another. What Advani did to further his political career , is mild , perhaps petty theft , compared what WHITE WORLD LEADERS have done brazenly. take maggie thatcher and those infamous words “People feel they are getting SWAMPED by immigrants. Immigrants make around 7-8% of the population. Didn’t do her any harm WON THREE ELECTIONS ON THE TROT.feted by right wing press(India thankfully have been spared of that animal), have been ennobled , DARLING OF AMERICA , I am waiting for her state funeral to outdo Diana Spencer.Same with Sarkozy , merkel everytime same “foreigner” which is NON WHITE , not cech , pole or romanian.
    There are feted as being the torch bearer of free world.In my previous posting I have shown how the Tv advert showing black convict WILLY HORTON ‘S piture is used to whip up anti black prejudice in Bush Snr election , and he is thought to be a nice guy.
    THIS IS ALSO CLASSIC HINDU /INDIAN APPROACH TO ALL MATTERS IN LIFE. just like you cannot wipe out prostitution , so long there is a DEMAND. Similarly castigating Advani is classic Indian TUNNEL VISION. No body implored or BRIBED to vote for advani yet they did , why BEACUSE THERE WAS A DEMAND FOR BELONGING , AN IDENTITY LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD. If the ugly looking Miss roy can pitch for KASHMIRIAT , can’t see great deal wrong in advanis stance.
    The point is CONGRESS HAS NOTHING TO OFFER , THE C STANDS FOR CORRUPTION and the dynastic rule is complete and ALL PERVASIVE it is UNCOUTH. Shyam Benegal was stunned to discover none of his crew had ever heard of subhas chandra BOSE. This is totalitarian rule a la north korean “dear leader ” indian version.
    Also remember THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN ECONOMIC POLICY BETWEEN CONGRESS AND BJP. Also incredible it may seem BJP(not sangh parivar) , is more in tune with muslim character. Muslims look at things BLACK AND WHITE , and BLUNT approach , so they feel more in synch with their character, and many muslims want to join IT IS ONLY THEY NEED TO DEFINE HINDUTVA BEING PEOPLE OF SINDHUSTAN , and not denoting religion.
    My worry is SHIV SENA is a much much virulent virus if not smothered will eat into the body politic of india , there will be no india as we know it.
    And lastly Narendra modi. The classical “easy option syndrome” .Blame one person all is explained. I am aware he used these words in a rally I saw in TV just after the GODHRA MASSACRE. “Mere Dil me godhra ke aag jal raha hai”. at the same time I have watched him Tv just after the infamous progrom , HE DEFINITELY LOOKED SOMBRE , and said “Gujrat has a history of riots” , didn’t say what scum Buddhadev bramhin Bhattacharya of west bengal said “They have been paid with their own coins”. The fact is MAJORITY of Gujrati Hindus have deep seated hatred for the converted cousins , god knows why , they are cousins else why the names are ahmed patel or what not.
    I remember In UK(would you beleive it) somebody i know said to me , one day one gujrati lady (originally from Uganda,) came up her while she was picking her son from school and said “Thank goodness sharmila , YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM. The roots of the problem needs to be searched here.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    Mostly agree, except Advani is more ugly than Arunadhiti Roy, in every sense.

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shan

    Thank you for you response. Generally, if one posts anything about the RSS and Hindutva, all one gets a litany of abuse, casting of aspersions, outright accusations of being anti-national and so on so forth from its symathisers and hard-core supporters.

    I do not hold any brief for Arundhatis of the world, but I will defend her right to have her own views.

    One wrong in no way justifies another one, however mild – even if it is petty theft. Just because others have indulged in a wrong doing, it is no argument that one must to do the same. Recall RSS sympathisers justifying Gujarat 2002 by Delhi 1984.

    I do not agree that what Advani did to further his career and BJP’s fortunes was petty theft. Why should even one life have been be lost in the process – his rath yatra? Your justification of there being a demand of such identity and politics is no excuse for Advani to have appealed to all that is worse in human nature – hate and vendetta. It has never worked in the long run. The law of diminishing returns sets in. This is where Advani has horribly gone wrong.

    Who is more virulent – the RSS or the Shiv Sena? FIrst – they are bed fellows and second it is dangerous to see who has more bragging rights as to their virulence and capacity to harm people and property. .

    Finally coming to Modi. it is amusing and sad that you should remind us that Modi looked sombre on TV during 2002. Come on, what else you wanted him to do and give the game away? The hatred you talk of Hindu Gujaratis towards their cousins Muslims Gujaratis has been fueled by the RSS. One must remember that Gujarat is RSS’s laboratory and its experiments the RSS had hoped to carry out in the rest of the country. You wrote that it is the easy option blame one person – Modi – for 2002. It was well orchestrated plan by the top honchos of the RSS and the BJP and he was the pointsman on the spot, hence, rightly or wrongly he is target, just as Suresh Kalmadi is for the CWG mess.

    Regards
    Satish

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Satish, I am not justifying what advani did , castigating him , abusing him will not make an iota of difference to his approach, but if somebody comes up with A FAR ATTRACTIVE AGENDA, then and then only he can be made redundant like an abandoned town.I will stand by every word I had written about Modi, GUJRAT RIOT WAS NOT ONE MAN HANDIWORK, it is the same trap of OVERSIMPLIFICATION, there is an innate problem there. Nagpur/Maharashtra is world HQ and THINK TANK laboratory , just ask yourself why similar success by RSS is not forthcoming in west bengal. Just like blaming suresh kalmadi for ills is A COP OUT , leading the corruption infrastructure intact.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Shan

    I am not castigating or abusing him. Only pointing out where, in my opinion, Advani has misjudged and made blunders galore. He misread the minds of the Indian people at large.

    A far attractive agenda is of love, compassion and all-inclusiveness. Since the general elections of 2009, political commentators and others have been urging the BJP (given its strength in the Parliament) to occupy the vacant right-of-the centre space in Indian polity. For that to happen, it has to let go of the Golwalkar’s ideology and numerous corrective steps..That is easier said than done, as it has painted itself in a corner since 1989. We can discuss this some other other time.

    The Gujarat experiments have not been replicated elsewhere, because – one, the BJP lost the 2004 elections and as a result, perhaps more important that they have realised that this hate-mongering and divisiveness does not pay. it is development and welfare that fetches votes. See how Modi and Co. have been shouting hoarse about how much progress Gujarat has made under Modi.

    I am not blaming Suresh Kalmadi or Modi alone, they have become the targets as I said rightly or wrongly.by people/media at large.

    Regards
    Satish

    PS: I would sincerely suggest that you avoid using capital letters for emphasising, as you must be aware that it denotes shouting and is considered rude on the net.

    Ravi Reply:

    I could not have put this better myself.

    Vinay Reply:

    Just 2 posts ago, Zia has commented on the same blog (by Advani). Already into recycling. If one has to refill the same “victim hood” tank, they need to keep visiting his post again and again.

    Most of the bloggers would agree, Muslims should not be held responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago. Is there anyone who disagrees? Then why is this hammering? Today’s reaction is only for today’s stubbornness. Nothing to do with Aurangzeb or Babar.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Very noble and correct stand that no one should be held responsible for what happened hundred of years ago. Those were different times.

    We bloggers may agree on the above. The problem is with the RSS. It always speaks in multiple voices. The VHP and Bajrang Dal keep reiterating every now and then about historical injustices and have not given up on their agenda of reclaiming 3000+ mosques, which they allege were built on temples. Never mind if the BJP has taken a moderate stand.

    Regards
    Satish

    S Singh Reply:

    There are no different times. Who would have thought in our time we will find a war like Iraq war. So things can happen any time. That is the anture of man and rulers and countries. I am amazed when people say these are different times. These are not. Externally it may look like. peopel still cheat, kill, murder, take economic and otehr advantages, exploit etc etc..So, we are all the same human beings. Same genes. Same DNA.

    VHP, RSS, Bajrandg etc has the right to influence the way they please, as long as it is legal and within the constituition.

    They will speak in double or triple voice as long as theer are followers for the particular message. Congress, Marxists, Jamait etc is no different. There is a product,a nd there is a group for the product.

    Of the 3000 mosques, if there are really sacred places, such as Mathura or Benares, a negotiated alternative will have to be found. and that should not be construed as why should today’s Muslims pay back for his grand patrents’ crimes.

    These things are never cut and dried. It would have been if all the Muslims went to Pakistan or Bengla Desh. Since a good number decide d to stay back, they are equal citizens of India. Each group should be considerate of the other; while 3000 is too much (although it may be a fact that they were built on razed temples); 30 may not be. A mature citizenry should eb able to sort out..

    farid Reply:

    @S.Sing
    ——— BANGLADESH —PL.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    These are different times. There are fewer wars now. Interactions between nations (kingdoms ten) are more civilised and many times agree to disagree. The ethos and the way societies govern themselves have also undergone tremendous changes.

    The RSS definitely speaks in different voices and that is the problem. I use the word forked tongue. When they speak of democracy, secularism and all-inclusiveness, as I have said, it is outright dishonesty on their part. Read their founding ideology. In their scheme of things, the unelected members of the RSS will decide how to run this country.

    It is not a question one mosque or two or ten or 3000. You find 3000 too much, I find one too many. Even if these were built over temples (there is no hard evidence one way or the other), how many alleged historical wrongs are to be corrected. There are allegations many of the Hindu temples were built after destroying Buddhist and Jain shrines. There would no end to the futile exercise of correcting wrongs of history. What will be the benefits of expending time and money for such an endeavour? Will the people fo this country will achieve 100% literacy, wlll everybody get 2 square meals a day and have money to spare, will disease be eradicated, will the Naxalite and Kashmir be solved?

    More important, what right do the RSS and its militant outfits to take it upon themselves to decide these matters? Let the RSS/BJP get two-third majority in both houses of Parliament and then they can change the laws of the country to suit their agenda.

    Regards
    Sukesh

    S Singh Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    Where are you when we need you? Look at this Pakistani Satish Haldakar See how he signed his name .. Sukesh… Is he another Ravi in disguise? A project for you..

    S Singh Reply:

    Farid, sorry for misspelling. Did not mean anything negative about the country.

    farid Reply:

    @ S.Sing,

    O.K BROTHER—-THANKS.

    chandra Reply:

    i am noticing you for last few months you go casting unfounded allegations against advani and rss men as if you are investigating officer, if you do not stop such practice you should be ready for travelling to Hyderabad criminal courts to defend your self against criminal complaints preferred by my clients, please take notice that you should stop castigating rss and it’s workers, if you have any evidence against them go and lodge complaint in local police station, but if you continue to post such a derogatory comments my clients would be constrained to take appropriate legal actions against you in appropriate legal forum.

    N.Chandra Sekhar Reddy
    advocate,
    High Court of A.P
    Hyderabad

    Ravi Reply:

    Chandra

    Is that a threat.

    Bring it on.

    See you in Jaipur court.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Chandra

    Go ahead. You can also threaten others too, for example Manish TIwari of the Congress and scores of others, who express similar views .

  • aryamihir

    Advani is very right when he says “It is therefore only natural that, when India became independent, many Hindus felt that 1947 should signify not only freedom from British rule but also a clean break from those aspects of the pre-British history that were identified with subjugation, assaults on Hindu temples, vandalizing idols and erosion of our noble cultural traditions.”
    After all it was after centuries that hindus were getting freedom in 1947. For muslims enslavement was for only for 90 years from 1857-1947 and that too they got the dividend in form of one entire country (it is 2 countries now) for themselves. Whats wrong if in 1947 Hindus thought that finally they have their own land and their own rule. Hindus had never thought the secularism that the founding fathers of this nation were talking will become a whipping tool against them and a tool for appeasement of muslims. Hindus in 1947 would have never imagined that this secularism will make them refugee once again in their own country.
    What is wrong if Hindus want to build their own places of worship? Every religion does that.
    Now Zia wants to know why assualt on mosque? This is very mischevious question because the structure that was brought down was not a mosque as has been mentioned in the rescent judgement then why are muslims so pent up about that structure? the only plausible reason is that muslims always saw that structure as assertion of islam on hinduism and one a temple comes up at that place that assertion would be gone and which is what dont want to let it go.

    [Reply]

    HPN Reply:

    Well said.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Aryamihir

    So you think.

    1. A secular whip is bad.

    2. A Hindu whip would have been very thereputic for every one.

    3. Hindus are refugees in their own country.

    4. Who is stopping Hindus building their places of worship. Or do you mean in Ayodhya.

    5. Zia is not alone in asking why assualt a mosque? Many others are asking the same.

    [Reply]

    Piyush Reply:

    1. first of all when advani or RSS for that matter says Hindu they mean culture and not religion. By that i mean yoga, hindi, ayurveda and not only ram , krishna etc.

    2. It wasnt an operational mosque rather a remain. The tension were escalated when negotiations were called of and Muslim board refused to allow that land to be used for hindu worship as well for what ever reason. The mosque you are talkin about had not seen a muslim prayer for past 100 – 200 years.

    3. Sanjay Gandhi or Rajiv Gandhi aloowed the part of the land to be used by Hindus for prayers, before that it was out of bounds for everyone whether hindu or muslim after which muslims protested the dual use.

    3. And how can u not spot the bias in the article. This article is full of self victimization and if you are estabilishing your secular credentials based on this article its just wrong. I am no ram worshiper myself neither do i care about temples or any other places of worship but i dont put down people who do.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Piyush

    I think that you will find that describing Hindu by RSS as a cultural entity rather than a Religious entity is a very very recent phenomenon. So according to some proclamations recently made by the current leader of RSS that, Hinduism is a cultural label rather that a religious one, means that an Indian Muslim can be a Hindu. Providing they affirm to Indian Constitution.

    Not sure how Indian Muslims reacted to this.

    My personal reaction was that this is a cynical ploy.

    However see if you can use the words leopard and spots in a sentence.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    The problem is that RSS and it sympathisers only talk of hate, vendetta and undoing real and mostly imagined wrongs of the history, and this is precisely what you are advocating.

    My questions to you.

    When will you ever talk of love, compassion and all-inclusiveness?

    Which problems of the country will be solved by a building a place of worship in Ayodhya or anywhere else for that matter? The same money could well be spent by building a hospital, a school, a college that would benefit thousands of ordinary citizens. The real places of worship are and should be within one’s heart and mind, not in some structure somewhere.

    Regards
    Satish

    PS: I will not comment on Advani’s remark, as i have dealt with his persona in another posts here.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    RSS has as mucha righta s Muslim league, Jamait Islami, congress, DMk etc to organize, campaign, attract votes and participate in government.

    Indian constitution does not prevent anybody to organize a political forum as longa s they are not violating constitutition

    [Reply]

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    Nobody is denying that the RSS or anyone’s right to organise into a forum, group or political party. The problem is of ideology. Just check how many seats organisations like Muslim League, Jamait Islami have in the Parliament and in various assemblies. At least in the Parliament, the BJP has been losing ground, from 182 seat in 1998/99 to 141 (2004) and 116 (2009) and people of talking about less than 100 in 2014. So any party with narrow agenda is never going to do well in the long run and that is why the Congress. Party, with all faults and shortcomings, is the preferred party of governance since 1950, as it is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be a party for all ideologies and shades of opinions.

  • Raju Kurien

    Zia is like the Jewish columnists of the west.. he creates his fodder and then systematically detsroys it.

    His opening statement “No leader of contemporary India”…. neither Advani nor his followers ever made him “the leader of contemporary India”.. An apt attribution should have been “no political party leader” “no politician” .. Zia makes him the leader and gives him a blow below the belt.

    “was attainment of freedom a victory over temple razers”.. Advani’s blog does not say that, Zia says that. Advani says, with freedom, we should rebuild national monuments that were destroyed in the past.

    “In the popular imagination, the movement of Ram temple has always been understood as a clash between Hindus and Muslims” – utter nonsense; Muslim leaders took it as an attack on the Muslim way, for them this was a perfect fodder “Islam in danger, Muslims not protected in secular India, blah blah” The leaders who organized or most of the people who participated did not project this as an anti-Muslim initiative; it was Muslims themselves who painted that picture.

    Zia is absolutely right that the present day Muslim citizens should not be blamed for what their ancestors did in destruction, rape, killings, conversion, looting. But, is nt present day Germans blamed for Holocaust, made constantly guilty of what their grandparents have done. Constantly asked to repay this money or that painting.

    Had a partition not happened, many Indians would not be going back to the Muslim atrocities. (to our Muslim friends who constantly blog about the Hindu atrocities on Jains and Budhists — Jains and Budhists are not complaining about that. It is Muslims who are complaining about that now ..that Muslim atrocities on Hindus are OK because two thousand years ago there was Hindu atrocities on Jains and Budhists). The fact of partition, more than the new notion of independence, gave impetus to interested parties to rebuild the monuments and places of importance that were destroyed.

    Again , present day Muslims should not be blamed for partition.

    At the end of the day, Muslim well-being in India or anywhere else, squarely depends on Muslims themselves.A rathyatra does not make or break Muslims. Advani will die soon. Why are Pakistani Muslims killing each other? Why did nt democracy and democratic institutions take life in Pakistan? IS it because of Advanis rathyathra? Why are they exploding bombs everywhere/ Why is Europe, tolerant so far and wlcoming them with financial incentives, suddenly fearful of them? Why do they put fissile material in their underwear and try to explode an airplane?

    Why are Muslims backward in all dimensions all over the world (except may be attending friday mosque service, and except may be for fertility) including in the so called their own countries?

    Neither Advani nor Rathyatra does not have anything to do with these. In countries like India and in European countriesthey have this victim mentality that is ******** them. In Muslim countries they have this need to show who is a purer Muslim, and in that process they kill each other. Then there is Darfur..

    Muslims, save from yourselves, not from Advani.. He will be dead and gone soon.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Allow me to answer some of the questions you raise.

    Before I do that here are some observations.

    1. Advani is a politician and calibrates his language carefully. Whilst Zia is a journalist writing in a blog and to a certain degree he is being provocative.

    2. I do not believe that at ground level present day Germans feel that they are being held responsible for the actions of the Third Reich. As far as Claims of Reparation, is concerned then a lot of PAINTINGS, whose ownership was recorded as was their looting, are correctly being asked to be returned to the heirs of their rightful owners. Elgin Marbles, Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s Throne, The Koinoor, etc. fall into this category.

    3. Why are Pakistani Muslims killing each other? Strictly speaking they are not. Pakistani Taliban are killing other non Taliban Pakistani’s because under pressure from USA the Pakistan Army is killing members of Pakistan Taliban, sadly not the Afghan Taliban.

    This is a direct result of creating a nation on the basis of a Religion, as Pakistan was. The Muslim League was given support by the Hard Line Muslims who wish to create an Islamic Theocratic State, where as Pakistan establishment wants it to be a moderate Muslim state. The resulting conflict which has been there since the beginning has recently turned violent.

    It is the fear that a Hindu Theocratic state, the kind that Advani imagines, will similarly destroy India, is the reason why BJP does not win many elections.

    4. Why did not democracy and democratic institutions take life in Pakistan? The desire for Democracy exists in Pakistan, but Pakistan more than India is a feudalistic country. A nexus between Feudal Lords and Army often get together and oppress the population. Pakistan is a failing state and surely we do not want that in our country. To do that we have to avoid becoming a Hindu Theocratic Country.

    5. Why are Muslims exploding bombs every where? The simple reason is that within Islam a debate is going on. There are those who wish to interpret Quran and other books LITERALLY, rather that look at it as a symbolic book. This debate is not new, Wahabi’s and other Salafi groups have taken that position. Combine this with USA exploiting Middle Eastern resources willy nilly, establishing military bases in their countries, etc. and you have the recipe for radicalised youth. They are then exploited by Hate Preachers and the rest I am sure you already know.

    6. Darfur is purely Oil for China issue, it has racial veneer to it, but it is basically an oil issue

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Darfur is an “oil issue” is an over over simplification. It is a Muslim over muslim fight; between Arab north (Janjaiwad?) and black south Muslims — for Arab muslims to eatablish dominance over ethnic Muslims.

    Of course, china has leased a lot of land for its “food guarantee” , they also have oil rigts.

    But the pure vs non-pure, who is superior Muslim, started long back

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    My main point was not about the purity angle, I did say there is racial elemnt to it.

    My main point was about driving away of African Muslims by the Janjaiwad was so that it becomes easy to lease the land and mineral right sto China and that proceeds of that deal to go to Arab Muslims rather than shared with the African Muslims.

    Ankit Reply:

    Ravi,Shoeb, S Singh, Raju etc. While I do not agree with everything that you guys have written here (surprise!), I must complement all of you on a high quality discussion. Unfortunately, this kind of level headed and honest discourse is rarely witnessed in media. It seems me like the intellectual mettle of most readers is much higher than that of Indian journalists.

    S Singh Reply:

    What debate on 5 ? There is no debate within Islam about the new terrorism, violence, literal interpretation etc. The violent ones have hijacked, and the non-violent ones have stood there as accessories.

    It took Deobandi School eight years (after 9/11) to denounce terrorism, but with the a caveat,, any terrorism conducted by anybody is bad. So, they do not see the worldwide Islamic terrorism. They are the first ones to issue Fatwah when somebody says anything against burqua.

    You are right about Wahabis and Salafis. But keep in mind that Indian Muslims are being “wahabised”.. Look at new mosques, they are all Saudi Wahabi style. Muslim women in the south who never used to wear burqua are wearing burqua because of Wahabi pressure through their mosques. Indian Msulims working in Saudi Arabia come back to see a decadent India moving away from PUBH principles and want the KSA style Wahabism in their community. Arabia is their “mother land” and they think theya re Arab descendents and not of indian stock. .

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    I agree that in India Saudi money is converting a lot of Mosques and Preachers, into Wahabi Zealots. There is no doubt about it.

    However, Barelvi and Sufi Islam is eminently more accommodating.

    I am very happy to acknowledge that this is a disturbing trend. However, as I am an optimist I believe that this is a phase that will pass by in India quicker than it will in Pakistan.

    The fact that Deobandi school did not condemn violence as soon as it happened is their short coming and it shows them in a bad light.

    However, RSS and a Hindu Theocratic India is not the answer.

    I have faith in India’s resilience.

    S Singh Reply:

    Yup. Good point. And if you believe in the resilience of India, as I also do, One should not worry about India becoming a Hindu fascist country. Indian gene is an accepting and accommodating and adapting one. Many religions and thoughts came to the Indian shores (including Islam long before bin Quasm invasion in the north), and Indians just embraced/accepted them; with Hindu kings giving land and “title to land”.

    India is a Hindu majority country, that does not mean they will vote one in just because he is a Hindu or RSS.

    However, the constant berating of Hindus and RSS etc will only embolden the extremists among them, and Muslims will be the losers in that fight. is taht what the secularisst want?

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, your number 3 point Why are Pakistani Muslims killing each other? Strictly speaking they are not. Pakistani Taliban are killing other non Taliban Pakistani’s because under pressure from USA the Pakistan Army is killing members of Pakistan Taliban, sadly not the Afghan Taliban.
    Sorry perhaps Rajiv is correct when he says what he says about you . This is brazen falsehood, The only killing that is taking place is because SUNNIS WANT TO EXTERMINATE EVERYBODY ELSE , and consider ahmedias, shias as another version of pagan worship with shrines etc. In other words they are kuffers in their eyes , they are the only one they can lay their hands on , doing anything to a chinese will invite a lal masjid kind of retribution.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    So here are some questions I think if you are able to answer then you will realise how wrong you are.

    1. What is the proportion of Sunni’s among the Pakistani Population.

    2. What proportion of them are involved in violent Jihad.

    3. What do the rest of the Sunni’s do.

    I know what Rajeev thinks of me, sadly I am too much of a gentleman to let you know what I think of you.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, the rest of sunnis remain INDIFFERENT making them complicit /willing executioners. Numerically how many percent of total populationof germany were involved in gassing jews less than 0.1%. . The point is not whether entire sunni population is involved , the greater WICKEDNESS is to JUSTIFY THE KILLING using canard like american drone attack. I need not say what i think about you others have spoken and you reveal yourself loud and clear.

  • HPN

    Zia,

    Your blog seems to be for the regular ones, for even a complimentary response like “well said’ from a newcomer is blocked. You have also blocked my forthright comments on how Modi has helped put a break on day to day communal violence in Gujarat since it does not suit you.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    HPN

    I think you will find that your contribution is not blocked, both of the ones you mention are included above. Further more most contributions are automatically published and Zia or for that matter any other moderator can not stop it.

    Some abusive ones are removed but almost always after publication.

    [Reply]

  • Piyush

    i believe its more than obvious that there was a bias in this article and that its based more on feelings than facts. i don understand why i am yet to come across an article by a muslim devoid of self victimization.

    Neway u very conveniently forgot to mention that Babri masjid wasnt actually used for prayers and that it is not unusual for Masjids to be shifted even in Islamic countries. Also the deadlock could have been avoided had the Muslim agreed to allow the use of the land as temple. They didnt which over the years escalated the problem. I have no hesitation in saying this because a lot of temples were destroyed though its a little too late to point fingers and wherever possible there should be an attempt to restore. I am not saying to destroy operational mosques but ones that are in ruins and happen to be at some holy spot for another religion.

    Also its not an unknown fact with foreign invaders came forced conversion in any part of the world and since Ayodha happened to be a very important mention in one of hindu mythologies Muslim Board could have been mature and allowed hindu worship in that place as well. And quite frankly that u being a journalist also happened to write your article based on the hype created by the media itself.
    And even Advani meant Hidutva as a culture that prevaled in India and not as a religion. May be u’ll understand if i take Tibet’s example. If tibet gets freedom is not its right to make tibetan as its official language instead of chinese and follow buddhist codes instead of Hans Chinese. Incase of Tibet ( or any other country) buddhism again is not a religion but a way of life.

    [Reply]

  • anand

    but one thing i ask all the gentlemen on the forum. is there a moslem in india subcontinent who can claim his/her forefathers were not either brutalised or bribed to become moslems. has all of this huge population of moslems emigrated from arab?? if they feel so happy with what happened to their forefathers why should any of us object. bajao jitni dugdugi bajani hei

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Anand

    In addition to what you suggest, would like to entertain the possibility, that some time – a couple of centuries ago – the Dalit and the Tribal population of India was so baly trated by Caste Hindus that an offer from another religion to give these people some status, let alone a higher status, was enough for them to ebrace a new more egalitarian God. Due to this some people became Muslims and others Buddhist.

    I am not suggesting the force and co-ersion were not used, I am sure that they were, but there were other reasons as well.

    I once mentioned before that India’s prominent Dhrupad Gayaks are the Dagar Bandhu. 5 generation ago they were Hindus, they converted because of the patronage afforded to them by the Muslim Raja’s.

    Sadly there seems to be an increasing trend for some Indian Muslims to claim there ancestory being Arab, rather than Central Asian and Or Indian. Mirza Ghalib’s ancestors came from Centarl Asian Turkaik ethnicity, yet he was as Indian as you and I.

    Here are some of the castes whose people practice both relgions (not at the same time ofcourse) I am sure you will recognise a few:

    From Gujarat

    Alavi Bohra • Ansari • Arabs • Baloch • Banjara • Behlim • Bhadala • Bharbhunja • Bhishti • Chhipa • Chunara • Chundrigar • Dawoodi Bohra • Dhobi • Dhuldhoya • Doodwala • Ghanchi • Ghanchi-Pinjara • Halaypotra • Hingorja • Hingora • Jats of Kutch • Juneja • Kadia • Kagzi • Ker • Khaskheli • Khoja • Machiyar • Makrani • Malik of Gujarat • Mandali • Makwana • Manka • Mansoori • Memon • Meta Qureshi • Miyana • Molesalam • Momna • Mughal • Multani • Multani Lohar • Mutwa • Nagori • Nayak • Node • Panar • Parmar • Patani Bohra • Patni Jamat • Pathans of Gujarat • Salaat • Samma • Sandhai Muslims • Sanghar • Shaikhs of Gujarat • Shaikhda • Sayyid of Gujarat • Siddi • Sipahi • Soomra • Sulaymani Bohra • Sunni Bohra • Surti Muslims • Tai • Turk Jamat • Vora Patel • Vyapari • Wagher

    From UP

    Ansari • Baghban • Baluch • Behlim • Behna • Bisati • Dhobi Musalmaan • Dogar • Fareedi • Gaddi • Garha • Ghosi • Gujjar Musalmaan • Halwai • Idrisi • Iraqi • Jat Musalmaan • Jhojha • Kakorvi Shaikh • Kamboh • Kayastha Musalman • Khanzada • Khumra • Lalkhani Rajput • Malkana • Manihar • Meo • Milki • Mughal • Mujavir • Muker • Nagar Muslims • Pathans of Uttar Pradesh • Qassab • Qaum-e-Punjaban • Qidwai • Rajput Musalmaan • Rangrez • Rayeen • Rohilla • Sadaat Amroha • Saadat-e-Bara • Sadaat-e-Bilgram • Saifi • Salmani • Sayyid of Uttar Pradesh • Shaikh of Uttar Pradesh • Shaikh Ja’fri • Siddiqui • Shaikhzada • Teli Musalmaan • Turk • Tyagi Musalmaan • Zamindara

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    @Anand

    ———–My forefathers are not from — outside INDIA–they were BHUMI-PUTRA– ———–not central ASIANS // ARYANS //ARABS.

    They were not bribed–but given the — HONOR— of sharing place of worship ———etc.

    THEY WERE BRUTALIZED—before conversion—by the SHAMAJPATIS –of that time-
    ——-FOR NO FAULT.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Why are (some) people incessantly worried about a what if — what if RSS comes to power and change constitution.. First of all, if any party coming to power can easily change constitutition, then that constitution deserves to eb changed and thrown out. I hope there are systems and controls like in USA where an amendmend is an exhaustive process (which is bad too)

    RSS coming to power is somebody’s imagination gone wild or mad. It will remain a fringe party. Somebody remartked that RSS is like LeT, the only difference being RSS is not a part of the defence department. Last time I checked RSS has not bombed anybody, neither put a city on terror ride for 3 days killing hundreds of people. RSS also did not train assassins and terrorists to plot bombs in foreign countries.

    So, why is this RSS phobia coming and where is it coming from? It is from Msulims who want to keep Muslims marginalized and threatened, that India shining is not for them, because RSSS would not allow them their due share.

    Talking about Muslims, we have an election here next week. For theh first time in its history, Islam is on the ballot, in the sense, all republicans (and some democrats) have openly campaigned against Islamic terrorism, unassimilated Muslims, the grave threat from Pakistan, who is more harsh on Muslims etc.

    I can see similar things happening in India if Indian muslims are not careful. The constant criticism of India, Hindus, RSS as a front for Hindu affront, etc will backfire.

    Why wouldnt people liek Ravi worry about and solve an actual problem unfolding in front of our eyes – worldwide nihilist MUSLIM terrorists destroyoing or trying to destroy world as we know (Zia is asking why are we going back to medieval Kings and countries to settle stuff, when he is 100% quiet on why his fellow Muslim brothers want to drag the whole world into a place and time even before these medieval Kings!)

    And add to this what Musharaff said recently – he is worried about Indian Muslim youth becoming terrorists (coming from the guy who sent tarined LeTs to Kashmir!)

    So, let us not spend time on what if — one had the temeritya nd audacity and a what if to suggest, will we have a muslim President if RSS come sto power and change teh constitution…

    Comeon guys, be serious, talk about how to take care of Maosists, Islamic MUSLIM terrorists, MUSLIM personal law which keeps them out of the stream, etc

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Binoy

    Many of your points are right. Especially the point that there are willing , committed Muslim extremists who, left to themselves, will drag the whole world into a barbaric time and age. We are witnessing ivignettes of that in the attack on women, children etc in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    President Reagan had invited many of these people to white house, even compared them to the freedom fighters and founding fathers of US Revolution. It suited him because these people were fighting Soviets at that time. So US and Pakistan promoted and nurtured this. Now it has become a monster, a Frankesteins monster.

    What Osama Bin Laden said has finally come true …”You may have watch, but we have time”… And they have used time wisely to indoctrinate and mould generation of young Muslim jehadis. Funded by KSA and other gulf countries, fueled by the barbaric inhuman Wahabi and Salafi purist fire, trained by Pakistan ISI, protected by Pakistan army, these guys think themselves invincible and are willing and ready to kill themselves and others to create the sandshores of the times of the Prophet.

    Zia and his elk are indirectly promoting this by not focusing on this real, and present danger. An imaginary resurrgent RSS will do less harm to Islam than these scoundrels who are blowing up shrines and mosques left and right. By making every single simple stuff a mountain, they are providing more tools to a youngster who is on the tipping point. By impinging on India and insulting on Hindus, they are giving legitamacy to these dogs.
    By decoupling heritage and pointing to only one side that somehow should be protected or is in danger, they are spreading venom.

    Zia should take leadership in orgamizing the moderate Muslims to “take back” Islam from terrorists and extremists. Zia and his wellwishing secularists insist that there are no Muslim extremists in India, that the Indian government is at fault and not holding to its secular principles with its witch hunt, on muslism, similar to the lines Al Awlaki says in motivating and recruiting terrorists. For once we (Muslims and non-Muslism) should listen to Mushareff when he says the main danger in future is from Indian jehadis.

    Muslim blood will flow in India not because of RSS or Advani, but because of Muslims. Let us prevent it.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    L Mirza , one thing you can be proud of is your honesty and clarity of thinking. I had previously requested you to enlighten us bloggers as you are privy to the muslim mind , why there is no counter culture , no nirad choudhuri , a martin luther , a swami vivekananda , who exhorted young boys to go out and play football rather than parroting holy scriptures , as this will be good for mind as well as health. Is it fear of violence(which is real) is it very small middle class. I will be waiting for your response

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Shan, were do I start?

    I will try to give my opinions, not to be construed as Muslim Opinion; secularists will find my position and arguments appalling than appealing.

    First of all, just look around. With its Muslim population, how many writers you see in the Muslim community? With its huge Muslim population in West Bengal and Bengla Desh combined, other than a few such as Shahed Ali, Ahsan Habib, Shamsudin Kalam etc , has it produced enough (I do not mean proportionally). Here in Tamil, until recently, the only one that could be called an important writer is Thoppil Meeran. Just recently, one Muslim woman author, (the first Muslim woman author in Tamil) published her highly acclaimed “irandam Jamangalin Kathai” (The Story of the Midnight). Look into other regional languages like Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Gujrati (I am sure people will say Modi killed the Islamic liteary spirit there), as well as Hindi. You can count how many Muslim authors are there on your fingers. Now, let us take a look at Arabic language spoken by 1.2 billion people. Just check how many authors, how many books in that language. I do have statistics, but will provide on another ocacsion.

    It is closed mind, devoid of a desire to explore, question, inquiry.

    It was not like this always, for if it was, we would not have had the “Golden Age of Islam”. The decline of golden age, decline of inquiry, promotion of exclusion all started with the asecdancy of illiterate third rate Mullahs and Maulavis in the community.

    In one sense this decline and closing of Muslim mind can be attributed to the greatest Muslim philosopher, may be one of the greatest philosphers ever lived, Al Gazali, the author of “Incoherence of Philosophers”, who passed away in the early 1100.. Islamic caliphates until then had thinkers of all religions in their courts debating about the “meaning of life” , about the great questions of the day, pondering into future. Thoughts from scholars from other parts and other religious background were encouraged. Prophet Himself had said “bring knowledge, even if it is from China”. Hellenic philosophy had lots of influence because of the Greek philosophers present in these courts. Books were translated. Al Gazali, widely respected and followed, as he progressed with his thoughts and age, concluded that what men want to know is all already here, in his books and in Prophets sayings, there is no need to explore other books, no need to resort to other thinkers, no need to question and change (as was the practice of Ijtihad, the formal palace process of questioning, arguing, and by the way changing Sharia according to time and place). Mullahs who were sidelined during the forward looking Caliphates times took this as an opportunity, played their cards well, and the “doors of Ijtihad” started closing down.

    This shut down process was accelerated with the attack on Baghdad/Abbasaid Caliphate by the Mongolians, Mongle Khan and Hulege khan in 1258. Baghdad was razed, the estimate of killings run to 1 million, and the story was that the great books of Baghdad library were used as a footbridge on the river Ttigress. Everything was destroyed. (khans do not like books!)

    This gave the clerics the opportunity they always wanted and could not get during the reign of caliphates. Like any clergy, they declared the Baghdad attack was the wrath of Allah for the un-Islamic process of questioning His books and interpreting His sayings, as Al Gazali said the whole knowledge is already there, no need of questioning, exploring. The Doors of Ijtihad was permanently shut. Frozen. From 1258 till now and in the forseeable future.

    An Indian Swami, although there are many false ones, generally is a highly educated one, chosen to go after an inquiry , thought, with rigorous learnings, one who is comfortable in Quran, Bible, as well as Vedas or Ancient rishis; generally not hostage to a religion, more of a universalist. The Christian high ups,, like the Cardinals and Arch Bishops are highly educated, with ability to carry discourses on anything. The lack of total freedom to inquire like the great indian Swamis (since they are not answerable to any religion), or the lack of a “meritocracy” based hierarchial structure like Catholics, create an “inferior” clergy class among Muslims. Islam’s religious leaders, for all practical purposes, are the illitearte fourth grade Mullahs who are the “priests” of local mosques. Most of the children (most parents send the children to Madrasa or other forms of religious learning, a learning that is imparted by Mullahs) essentially learn and grow up not questioning anything -There is no God other than Allah etc etc etc..-

    A swami Vivekananda or a Sri Sri Ravi Shankar or a Swami Chinmayaanda or a Martin Luther will not be born in a circumstance like that where the ecosystem is not there conducive to a man’s inquiry. And if somebody tries, the vested groups will kill them. It is happening in India as we speak. Community leaders (including Maulavis) who oppose the rigidities and advocate openness and inquiry are getting killed. it has not become a national news because these murders happen in outskirts like Tirunelveli. Recently a progressive Kerala Muslim cleric was killed by Sunni extremists, and CBI is involved in the investigation.

    The challenge for Muslims (as well as non-Muslims) is how to prevent this violence so a progressive can preach, reason and “convert”. That, then, will take care of the missing ecosystem.

    shan Reply:

    @l Mirza, OUTSTANDING, hope zia is reading. Many Thanks, As for mongols , they didn’t like books , but couldn’t do without women , apparently according to genetic analysis 40% people on this earth can trace their ancestry to CHENGIS KHAN.

    Mohan Ramchandnai Reply:

    Mirza,

    I wish there were more people like you. Keep up the good work.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Most of the points you have mentioned in this post are cricising my assertions, so I hope you don’t mind if I address them.

    1. Can RSS be equated to LeT in any sensible way.

    The answer is yes it can. Here is why. At the heart of both parties is their respective hard line religious ideology. Let want Pakistan to become a Caliphate/Emirate with no democracy but an Emir talking control. RSS want India to be a Hindu (and what ever that means for minority rights) country rather than its present Secular (however imperfect) nature. I am dead against that and therefore will do all in my power to denigrate RSS.

    I hope you will not be surprised that in India we see Muslims as a threat and not RSS, in Pakistan they see India as a threat and not LeT.

    2. Is RSS a terrorist organisation? Clearly the answer is may be. There have been many failed attempts in the past to label the organization as a terrorist organisation. There is no smoke without fire. The way in which the Hindu Right is organised in India is that RSS is the custodian of Political Hindu ideology and it has been since its inception, its DNA is Hundu Fundo. Then there are other organisations which are inspired, and controlled by RSS, which do its dirty work. These are Shiv Sena/ Bajrang Dal/ Ram Sena, each of these may be small and amateurish in comparison to LeT, but each is a prototype of a fully equipped terrorist organisation. Right now their focus is North Indians, in Maharashtra or Pub going innocent girls in Bagalore or Muslims in Ahemdabad and or Jaipur. Read last Saturday’s papers and you will see that Jaipur police have charge sheeted a RSS leader. Other evidence can be easily researched. So my contention is partly based upon evidence and partly on inherent capabilities of such organisations. RSS can very easily be transformed into an Indian Hzebula.

    3. Muslim threat is here and now and RSS threat is imagined.

    Absolutely not. The threat and intimidation from RSS inspired organisations is just as real as any Muslim threat. Whilst they have not done Mumbai style spectacular attacks, but that is due to the role of Pakistan Army/ISI in the Mubai incidents and free-lance political shanigans by Hindu Right in Ahemdabad riots.

    We need to be vigilant about Islamist threat, but we can not ignore similar threat emanating from saffron political actors.

    [Reply]

    raksh Reply:

    LeT stands banned by UN. RSS was banned thrice by congress govts. on all three occassions the ban was swept aside by the judiciary.

    Regarding the Rajasthan ATS chargesheet, RSS leader Indresh has not been chargesheeted. He is NOT named as a conspirator.

    And this saffron terror bogey is being raised by Muslim journalists so that Pakistan is off the hook.

    People like Ravi who try to pick as many holes as possible in any police case against muslim terrorists have like simpletons bought the police version without any question.

    [Reply]

    raksh Reply:

    questions for Zia, Ravi, Samir etc.

    If present day Muslims cannot be linked with the acts of temple demolitions by Muslim rulers, why is it that we are duty bound to justify such acts committed by Aurangzeb, Khilji etc. in the name of secular history? Why cannot it be simply said that such acts were wrong? Why is it that elaborate and idiotic justifications have to be offered to justify such acts of demolitions?

    Ravi Reply:

    And pray tell me what would you have labelled me as if I had bought without question the RSS/BJP version.

    You think I am a simpleton, I suggest that you have a good look in the mirror.

    Police is a law enforcement agency and not a political body.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    A meteor may attack Mumbai city three hundred years from now, a terrorist group may attack Mangalore city through Mangalore port any time within the next few years. A government and people, in that scenario, will take care of Mangalore port first, because resources are limited to address all, and even mor elimited to these wandering what ifs — what if RSS wins, and what if they change constitutition, and what if Muslims are denied their rights and what if a Muslim cannot be president… You are in a La La land. And you know, if all those happen, then that is the way democracy works. You ahve your right as a citizen to vote them or not.

    This is a Pakistani propaganda to frighten Indian Muslims..nothing more than that.

    RSS which is marginal, after 90 years or so of its history, will become non-marginal by the continuing attack on them by secularists and Pakistani sympathisers and Pakistanis themselves. Watch for it.. Also be aware that if Hindus want to pack all Muslims away to Gods land or purist land, they can do that today. Tehy do not ahve to wait for RSS to be strong.

    And I do take objection to your statement “In India we see Muslims as a threat and not RSS, in Pakistan they see India as a threat and not LeT”.. In addition to sleighing Pakistan as a “secular” country (they see India as India and not Hindu!), you are indirectly stating india as a ultra religious state taht does not tolerate others…. what a farce..

    I do not see Muslims as a threat for India. In fact, a great majority of indians (of all faiths) will not see Muslims as threat to India. What they have is a fear of radicalized Muslims throwing bombs everywhere for no reason, or a reason anybody can fathom. What they are afraid is about the real possibility of Pakistan type mayhem happening in india. What they are afraid of is Pkistan sending terrorists in other Msulim majority areas other than Kashmir. What they are afraid of is if their rich neighbour Muslim kid got tarined in LeT camps, how many more got trained? What they cannot understand is why a Indian Msulim working in Saudi Arabia when he returns on vacation or retirement believes he is Arabic and not indian (if anubody has divided loyalty, they should move out — at a basic level that is all what RSS is saying–they are not saying india is for Hindus)

    Listen, you take care of RSS and I will take care of Islamic extremism, that way motherland will be safe!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    It is you who is a citizen of La La land.

    Here is why.

    BJP leaders can not blink an eye without first getting the nod from RSS and you call that marginal. La La La.

    Please explain to me how the words I have used, led to the conclusion you have drawn.

    ——And I do take objection to your statement…. “In India we see Muslims as a threat and not RSS, in Pakistan they see India as a threat and not LeT”…… In addition to sleighing Pakistan as a “secular” country (they see India as India and not Hindu!), you are indirectly stating india as a ultra religious state taht does not tolerate others…. what a farce.——- La La La

    Pakistan is not a secular country, it is an Islamic republic and that is its tragedy.

    There is a survey of Pakistani Public opinion which is regularly published. That survey suggests that more Pakistanis see India as a THREAT (not enemy) rather than Taliban, LeT etc. In fact they see USA as the enemy and India as a threat. There is a difference.

    I am not indirectly stating any thing, you are imagining it. India is very very tolerant of others, RSS is not.

    I would agree that a vast majority of Indians, do not see Indian Muslims as a threat, but they see most of that threatens India today to be coming from Muslims. There is a difference. If my phraseology was clumsy than I have just corrected it.

    As I have said, I am a Liberal, and RSS is a fascist organisation which is modelled on Italian Fascism of WWII and whose founding leaders are known admirers of Hitler. I therefore fear it and yes I do believe that when religious bigotry polarises public, fascism in India can rise and change the very nature of our country.

    If you do not believe that you do live in a La La land.

  • Ravi

    Rakesh

    My name appears in the list of people to whom your point is addressed to so I will give you my response.

    Auranzeb was a relgious zealot and did much harm to our Hindu community, I have not once defended him.

    Allauding Khilji like was a looter and I have never defended what he did, with the exception of making the point all invaders behave like that and Hindu invaders were no saints.

    I have never justified any demolition made by any tyrant, merely suggested that whilst we know what the Muslims did, what is less well known is the destruction perpetrated by Hindus.

    This in no way is justification, or even defence of Muslim destroyers.

    [Reply]

    raksh Reply:

    Ravi

    Your replies are typical secular replies. Evade a direct reply. fudge the issue
    “And pray tell me what would you have labelled me as if I had bought without question the RSS/BJP version”
    .
    RSS/BJP never brought any charges in Mecca masjid, samjhauta express etc. It was the police which did it and now under political pressure is making a u turn. You despicable types first questioned the police version when Muslims were charged and now have now become police loyalists.

    “This in no way is justification, or even defence of Muslim destroyers”
    Read what your secular historians write. Read the nonsense on offer for demolition of kashi viswanath. Read the description of Guru Teg Bahadaur as a dacoit.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rakesh

    I am a typical secular = liberal. Is that crime or do you think it is a lie and that only Hindu Fundo stuff is truth.

    So immidiate denial by RSS that their leader was not inviolved, is not political pressure. What is it.

    I will be the last person who would defent Muslim or any other destroyers, as already said many times, Muslims did destroy, but so did Hindus. I have no difficulty admiting that Muslim conquerors were bar stewards, but it is you who continues to state that Hindus are all peace loving and that burfi will not melt in their moths. It sis such Hindu Fundos and you are are dispicable..

    Read it

    [Reply]

    Raksh Reply:

    Again a typical marxist reply. evade the issue, call the other side fundo, fascist and escape

    By the way it is not ‘immidiate’, it is immediate. not defent but defend, not moths but mouths

    Like your arguments, your spellings are also atrocious

  • yaj

    @Zia– i don’t understand you mentality.You are no different than a religious extremist.You are always up against whoever talk about Hinduism but never seen you criticizing any Muslim Leader.Can you talk sometime about ‘Indian MUjahideen” or are you also one of those who think they are people who are oppressed in India.Stop being a pseudo -secularist.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Coming from a Hindu Fundo this is rich

    [Reply]

    raksh Reply:

    A leftist marxist scoundrel, a running dog of the vatican, a pimp of teesta calling some one else fundamentalist is super rich

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rakesh

    Thank you for a very enlightening contribution.

    It speaks volumes about you.

  • Ravi

    Binoy

    In another post earlier you asked what the source of my RSS paranoia was.

    You may have missed the following. This is not the only incident, there are many like this in the past. Don’t forget that Mahatma Gandhi was murdered by a former RSS memeber.

    ———————————————————————————

    JAIPUR: Refuting charges that naming senior RSS leader Indresh Kumar in the Ajmer blast case was politically motivated, Rajasthan Chief Minister Ashok Gehlot has said the outfit’s “communal face” has once again come before the public.

    “Name of Indresh Kumar, senior RSS leader, could not have been added to the chargesheet without any basis and facts. The Anti-Terrorist Squad has done an independent inquiry into the 2007 Ajmer Dargah blast case and there was no political pressure.

    “This is not Gujarat where fake encounters take place and senior officers or ministers go to jail for fabricating cases,” Gehlot told reporters here last evening.

    He said the chargesheet was prepared seven months ago and the ATS has done “a good job to bring out the truth”.

    He also reacted sharply to the remarks on Jawahar Lal Nehru and Indira Gandhi made by senior RSS leader K C Sudarshan on the issue of Kashmir on Sunday.

    “Communal face of the RSS has once again come before the public and Sudarshan is now making baseless statements just to divert public attention,” he said in a statement.

    “He made highly condemnable remarks against former Prime Ministers Jawahar Lal Nehru and Indira Gandhi which shows how RSS people are frustrated after ATS found their involvement in the bomb blast case,” Gehlot said.

    Sudarshan in a lecture on Kashmir issue here had said that the Kashmir problem has arisen because of wrong decisions of Nehru.

    Sudarshan also said, “If they (Rajasthan ATS) have any evidence, why don’t they produce it in court and prove their charges. Just levelling these allegations through the media and a creating a false idea in people’s mind is unfair”.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    MADHAV SADASHIV GOLWALKAR

    Born in February 1906 at Ramtek near Nagpur, Sri Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar was otherwise known as “Guruji”. Golwalkar graduated from the
    Hindu University of Varanasi with a Master’s Degree in Science and later taught at the university before becoming politically active.

    In 1940, Golwalkar became the Sarsanghachalak, or Supreme Organizational Director of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the “National Volunteers Union”. It was at this time that Golwalkar became deeply involved in promoting the doctrine of “Hindu national resurgence,” which argues that Hindus must unite in order to combat the threats posed to Indian culture by foreigners, especially Muslims and Christians.

    Golwalkar has been criticized for having commented favorably on Adolf Hitler and on policies that reflect a fascist influence. The quotations below illustrate some of these tendencies, as Golwalker has argued for the purity of the Hindu “race”, support for the oppressive and racist caste system, and admiration for Nazi Germany’s efforts to “cleanse” itself of unwanted ethnic minorities.

    Golwalker died in June 1973.

    QUOTATIONS

    “From this standpoint, sanctioned by the experience of shrewd old nations, the foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e. of the Hindu nation, and must lose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race; or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment — not even citizen’s rights.” — Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined (Nagpur: Bharat Publications, 1939), pp. 47f and 55f.

    “To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.” — Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined (Nagpur: Bharat Publications, 1939), p. 35.

    “The ultimate vision of our work .. is a perfectly organised state of society wherein each individual has been moulded into a model of ideal Hindu manhood and made into a living limb of the corporate personality of society.” — Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined (Nagpur: Bharat Publications, 1939), p. need page

    “There is nothing to prove that it (i.e. the caste system) ever hindered our social developments. Actually the caste system has helped to preserve the unity of our society.”– Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar, Bunch of Thoughts (Bangalore: Rashtrotthana Sahitya, 1966), p.108.
    __________________________________________________________________

    I rest my case with regards to why RSS is a threat.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I still dont get what you are aiming at or what is your fear? The man is dead and long gone. Some of the members may be his ardent followers. Wouldn’t branding all of them as terrorists/undesirables be similar to barnding all Msulims as terrorists because all of them follow Quran and its instructions?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    That is fair enough.

    [Reply]

    raksh Reply:

    is ashok gehlot the last word on everything?

    why can’t nehru and indira be criticised?

    this behaviour is typical of a congressman who cannot see beyond the Family.

    That is why I called you a simpleton.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rakesh

    No one is stopping you criticising Nehru and Indira, I will join in.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    golwalkar was terrorist a bomb planter caught with explosives in meerut in 1930

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Binoy

    In case you continue to harbour the illusion of BJP being indipendant of RSS.

    ………………..”BHARATIYA JANATA PARTY

    The Bharatiya Janata Party is the political arm of the RSS and other Hindutva organizations. Founded in 1980, the BJP has in the decades since become one of India’s two largest political parties. The BJP has even on occasion collected enough votes to form governments. This happened for the first time in 1998 under Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, although his administration lasted for little more than one month. The next general election returned Vajpayee to head another coalition government, which remained in power until 2004.

    The “Plaque Removal Incident”

    In August 2004, member of the right-wing BJP and RSS parties (also known as the he National Democratic Alliance) caused a near riot in the Indian Parliament after the government ordered the removal of a memorial plaque to Vinayak Damodar Savarkar from the Cellular Jail in Port Blair. Savarkar, an extreme Hindu nationalist and proponent of “Saffron Fascism” was alleged to have taken part in the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of Mahatma Ghandi by an RSS member on January 30, 1948.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    I do not have any illusion. I am convinced BJP/RSS is not an existential threat to India, while Muslim teroorism is.

    As I mentioned, you take acre of BJP/RSS threats, I will take care of Muslim threats, so the motherland will be safe and prosperous.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Deal

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @bloggers et al, we have had our fill of this BJP/RSS , secular /hindutva slanging match. And Ravi goes on like the ugly miss roy , like an aged ***** , will take any offers , will do anything or like a craclking record , with its irritating monotony. So guys lets discuss the more pressing issue , the K word, KASHMIR.I would love to have the opinion of syed, L mirza , bobby, gopi thomas and all others who like to debate. I dont think much of these interlocuters, barring Mr Ansari. I have heard them , they are less than average, intellectually feeble. Alsi I have a sneaky feeling our opinions make its way to the people coming to NDTV debates. Like this Sajjad Lone , he said something which was a departure from his earlier stance , which I have been pointing out in blogs for sometime.
    The worst case scenario is this woolly thinking that loc is abolished , both kasmir merge with oversight by both india and pakistan. This is unmitigated disaster, which currency will they use, export of jehadis will be a legimate cake walk now. And what about the massive central assistance , what passport will they carry, so this is a pandoras box. Also one thing I am staggered about is that our policy makers are so dumb. Why they cant understand indo pak rapproachment is ananthema to china. China has described its friendship with pakistan like the rising of sun in the morning and arrival of moon at night , like the waves in the sea (these are actual words used). Now you should understand the stapled visa from J&K. I will contribute as the discussion progresses.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So not being able to take defeat gracefully every man’s ugly fundo Shan now wants to move the Subject to K word, because he thinks that is more defendable than the RSS.

    Lets see how far that takes him.

    Personally I was bored with the K word when Tarun Vijay first mentioned it.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Robert Fisk writing in the Independent UK how a mass migration of Christians out of the middle east is a reality:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-exodus-the-changing-map-of-the-middle-east-2116463.html

    1. Does this ring a bell? In the Indian context? Or, we don’t want to talk about it like Gautam Navlakha reportedly said (“I have an objection to the reference of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits at drop of hat”)
    2. Are some riots more equal than others?
    3. How many Muslims migrated from Gujarat after the so called “state sponsored genocide”? We see enough people on TV like Manish Tewari who talk through their rear *******; less of them here the better.
    4. Have the #CONgress-ies decided yet whether Indresh is chargesheeted or not? If indeed he has been,. why has he not been arrested? It is a heinous charge?
    CONgress-ies are masters of spin.
    After all, now Rahul is the new age JP!
    To this I say what Rahul is to JP, SIMI is to RSS

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “2. Are some riots more equal than others?
    3. How many Muslims migrated from Gujarat after the so called “state sponsored genocide”? …..”

    That comparison would make sense if you are trying to equate the actions of an elected government, bound by law and constitution to protecting the very lives it destroyed, to the action of hard core militants not bound by the constitution of India.

    If you want to compare the Government of an Indian state with Islamic militants, then feel free to make the comparison.

    If you dont see the difference, I do not know what to say honestly.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Anything that does not neatly fit in the secularists’ version becomes state excess, improper verdict, constitutionally incorrect etc.

    “Actions of an elected government bound by law and constitution to protecting the very lives it destroyed ….” – one is making a huge leap in castigating an elected government. There are laws and courts, let them have a verdict.

    “organized state vs lossey goosey rag tag Islamic “militants” (why dont you use the term “terrorists” – in both your paragraphs you used “militants” instead of terrorists) is another favourite of the secularists. Governments should go after the terrorists, wipe them out, through constitutional or non-constitutional means. We can play nice words and deeds and get killed by these “god loving” ********, or eliminate them through any means so a system of life can be preserved.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , both of you have valid argument , and it is something worth pondering. Sweeping generalisation is onething , rational analysis is another. It is not true that muslims did not move away from gujrat , in the immediate aftermath , some did. yet it is also true definitely mass migration did not take place. One reason being muslims because of socio economic class or whatever did ghettoised themselves, whereas kashmiri pandits , being scattered everywhere felt the full heat of insecurity. Though in ultimate analysis one has to concede gujrat riot was a one off thing , and generally Testa setalvad is hounding down the miscreants, whereas the thugs , stone throwers and public property burners are honoured by that dubious title of azadi.by the all and sundry except congress and bjp.
    Also gujrat being such a thriving place where will they go , and where will they earn their living. Though pandits living in tents(I haven’t seen , because no Tv footage is shown , though lot is shown about police brutality in kashmir), is it a fact has anybody seen it , i would like to be enlightened.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No one has the right to hound any one else from their home land.

    If that is true of West Bank and Gazza, then that is also true of Kashmir.

    Kashmiri Pandits, Sikhs and Other Hindus have just as much right to live in Kashmir as any Muslim does.

    I am not sure if internal refugees from Kashmir, ever were housed in tents or not, to my knowledge not.

    I have Kahmiri Pandits in my family – by marriage – and I am aware of their grievnces from a personal point of view. When I was growing up, I was very much aware of the fact that our family Brahmin was Kasmiri and used to come and visit us from Kashmir.

    I am all in support of conditions being created which would allow Kahmiri Hindus/Sikhs to return to their homes.

    I hope that such a process will be peaceful and not creat a completely different type of refugees. That will only swap one problem with another and will be difficult to sustain.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shan,

    Two Points.
    First: The militants, or terrorists (to pacify Gopi Thomas) are not the people who are shouting for Azadi today.

    They are not the ones who are throwing stones, or burning public property today. These are the ordinary citizens of Kashmir. One must make a distinction between the two.

    The hounding out of the Kashmiri pandits, was something that the terrorists did, not those ordinary Kashmiris who are protesting today in Kashmir.

    Second: Please try to understand one simple point. All sane people condemn the injustice against the Kashmiri Pandits. The Government, both central and state, must restore their land and property back to them. But to compare the actions of terrorists with that of elected governments, is meaningless.

    See for instance, if the Gujarat Riots had been done by some organization, like perhaps the Ram Sene, which is not a political body, then its comparable with the action of terrorists in Kashmir. And its then a law and order problem.

    However when the Government does it, it takes on a different meaning altogether. It makes it far more dangerous.

    shan Reply:

    @bobby, I agree the stone throwers and rioters and govt office burners have now been fully intoxicated by azadi, though a rational analysis will see this an act of national suicide. Also when the ugly looking Miss Roy, talks about police atrocity , one need to keep in mind these youngsters are egged on , apparently a favourite insult in valley is GOW TERA MATA HAI , GOW KO HUM KHATA HAI.
    Binoy Hegde is wrong when he says we should do a tibet here. First of all we cant , we have NDTV, barkha Dutt , testa setalvad nad that guy gautamNavalkha here. Also I dont know why India having arrived at this stage of ECONOMIC TAKE OFF , should not consider kashmir a liabilty . My suggestion is a referendum in VALLEY ONLY (I am aware the azadis want the whole of kashmir and want the hindus to live as SUBJECTS, which should in no way be granted), settle the pro pakistanis along LOC , pro indian(I am sure 20% in valley are) and pandits settled along the jammu valley border and azadi sadwiched in between. This should be done over a period of four years (we do not want to revisit PARTITION) , all the govt factories (HMT) relocated to jammu , a mine laid border between enlarged jammu and valley to prevent mass scale (bangladeshi style in north east india )economic emigration across to jammu
    which is inevitable

    Vinay Reply:

    @Bobby,
    “See for instance, if the Gujarat Riots had been done by some organization, like perhaps the Ram Sene, which is not a political body, then its comparable with the action of terrorists in Kashmir. And its then a law and order problem. ”

    But people do make BJP responsible for it saying it has derived the ideology from them. Renuka Choudhuri demanded resignation of BJP government, stating Talibanisation is happening in Karnataka.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGrDASxdd0&feature=channel
    The video has an idiot Ram Sena goon. Despite attempts by BJP person to know how they are related to them, the question was never asked. Instead got a reply, Ram Sena was bi product of BJP which created a culture for intolerance.

    Doesn’t the same yardstick apply for ruling government of Kashmir?

    Vinay Reply:

    @Bobby,
    “See for instance, if the Gujarat Riots had been done by some organization, like perhaps the Ram Sene, which is not a political body, then its comparable with the action of terrorists in Kashmir. And its then a law and order problem. ”

    But people do hold BJP responsible Ram Sena action saying, the latter has derived the ideology from them. Renuka Choudhuri demanded resignation of BJP government, stating Talibanisation is happening in Karnataka.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGrDASxdd0&feature=channel
    The video also has an idiot Ram Sena leader. Despite attempts by BJP person to know how they are related to them, the question was never asked. Instead got a reply, Ram Sena was bi product of BJP which created a culture for intolerance. Doesn’t the same yardstick apply for ruling government of Kashmir?

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    let me state unequivocally that I find even a single loss of life to violence, distasteful- okay, make that stronger, reprehensible if you like; whatever be the cause, whatever be the provocation.

    You know very well the point I am making. Firstly my take on the Gujarat riots is that the most Modi can be accused of is an act of omission rather than an act of comission; a point Vajpayee made when he made the rather cryptic noise about Modi failing in his Raj-dharma (which is to be a protector of all). So, till you establish active culpability of the state machinery, this parellel with Kashmir will stand.
    Allow me to share a personal note: I was a student in college (Varanasi) when parts of the city went up in flames orchestrated by Congress goons who were avenging Mrs Gandhi’s murder by systematically killing Sikhs, setting on fire their shops. I was out for of the BHU gate when the shops started burning, PAC came out to enforce curfew and I managed to somehow drag my cycle inside the campus. But, not before I saw a contingent of policemen helping batter down the gate of a shop owned by a Sikh and helping a mob set it on fire.
    Why this note? Do understand that no administration or political party in India is apolitical or secular. In case of any strife, they behave the way they should not. Many times, through active incitement but mostly by presumption of what their political masters would like.
    When they write about the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 (yes, I am old!!), the media makes the connection between some stray Congress politicians and the mob that lynched and murdered more than 3000 sikhs. Show me one conviction. More importantly, and mark this carefully, the connection between mob and the police and the Congress party is never established.
    Now for Kashmir.
    In 1989, when the Pandits were forced out of the valley, it is a fallacy to think that this only happened because of the fear of the militants. There was a ground level support as well from the general Muslims in the valley. And, did not the Kashmir Governments, whoever were in power, then, and till now, fail their “raj-dharma”?
    What is sauce for the goose, is, much as I abhor it, sauce for the gander.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby, and oh, one last thing
    compare the legacy that Gujarat has fostered for its people with Kashmir and my point becomes stronger.
    It is indeed a fact that Muslims would like to migrate to Gujarat (and they are migrating) in search of a livelihood. How many Kashmiri Hindus are going back to Kashmir?
    So, which of these had a more lasting impact?

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Shan,

    I do not understand why you use words like “intoxicated”. Imagine that we were two brits, discussing this issue in pre independence days, and I was telling you exactly what you wrote:

    “The stone throwers and rioters and govt office burners have now been fully intoxicated by azadi, egged on by irresponsible and unpatriotic people like Gandhi and Nehru, and terrorists like Bhagat Singh……though a rational analysis will see this an act of national suicide.”

    Such a statement could and I am 100% sure was made back then. People who have been brain washed are not those who want independence but Indians who are calling any one demanding independence as a traitor.

    Even if i grant for a second that Kashmiris would be better off as part of India, I think its a decision they have the right to take. Democracy to me means the simple statement that “I have a right to be wrong”.

    “Swaraj Mera Janam sidh adhikar hain”, is not just true for Indians, but for those who dont want the Indian label.

    “apparently a favourite insult in valley is GOW TERA MATA HAI , GOW KO HUM KHATA HAI.”

    Again the parallel to Indian Indpendence is striking. An argument was made by the Brits that once Indpenendence was given to India, then the Upper caste hindus would rule over the lower castes as well as minorities especially Muslims.

    Would that have been a good argument for keepind India under british rule.

    Most people who think that Kashmir is part of India, do so not because they are patriots, but because they think its a real estate which they own. If they were patriots, then they would have been on the streets siding with the Kashmiris, and not with the Indian state actions.

    “Also I dont know why India having arrived at this stage of ECONOMIC TAKE OFF , should not consider kashmir a liabilty”

    This is what I was talking about. Thats the attitude most Indians have about Kashmir. So much for love of country. The language is one of “liabilty and assets”.

    If “patriotism” has to have any meaning, then it should be that we are one big family. There is no other test of patriotism….Not whether one has Indian names, not about respecting some mumbo-jumbo texts like the Upanishads, not whether one supports Sachin and Aishwarya over Ponting and Angelina Jolie…but rather you think of people in India as a family….

    In which case, one has to ask oneself, whether, one looks at relationships within a family in terms of “economic considerations alone”– who is a liabilty and who is an asset or are there other factors as well..

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Firstly, I have always said that Sikh and Gujarat riots both show the violent and immoral nature of the Indian state.

    One difference between the two, though is that while the congress is an oppurtunist party, with no permanent Ideology, the Sangh Parivar has a vicious Ideology. Hence the Sangh Parivar is more dangerous in principle that the Congress, though in practice, its probably the other way round, since the Congress has been in power for a far greater time.

    “And, did not the Kashmir Governments, whoever were in power, then, and till now, fail their “raj-dharma”?”

    We can disagree here, but I do not doubt for a minute that Modi’s government was actively involved in planning and executing the riots.

    There are several, taped confessions, Witnesses by the police officials, reports by Human rights organizations, and independent Jouranalists. You may have more faith on what Modi says, but I think he is a murderer.

    “compare the legacy that Gujarat has fostered for its people with Kashmir and my point becomes stronger.
    It is indeed a fact that Muslims would like to migrate to Gujarat (and they are migrating) in search of a livelihood. How many Kashmiri Hindus are going back to Kashmir?”

    How can you compare the legacy between two states, when one is totally integrated within Indian state, and another where there has been political unrest for decades.

    You seem to forget that there is a 700,000 strong military force in Kashmir , just to keep Kashmir within India!!

    Kashmir, and Gujarat simply cannot be compared. Its like saying that how come so many Iraqis go to the west than the other way round! Is that a surprise??? (Especially since the latter have fu cked up the former…)

    If and when peace and political stability arrives in Kashmir, then we can make such comparisons.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , you are again letting emotion override rationality , letting in bias through the front door. The Brits would have no face to say what you have transposed . Why, because they have systematically LOOTED, first as a bengali you should know how the muslin industry was desrtoyed, next as a bengali I hope you know the name Dinabandhu Mitra and neel darpan , for non bengali readers this is a classic about the exploitation of indigo plantation.The whole purpose of punitive taxes on Indian textiles and tax exemption for english made cloth was decimation of indian cottage industry.The ports were built to export raw materials out of india and import finished goods. Until the outbreak of first world war there was no heavy industries, by law it was prohibited. War forced them to let tata build steel mill.The list goes on and on. Even the greatest anglophile , churchill worshipper , nirad choudhuri, laments in his dedication of his book “Autobiography of an unknown indian “, he writes and I am quoting from memory “to the memory of british empire ………who conferred on us SUBJECTHOOD , but withheld CITIZENSHIP. Forget citizenship gandhi was ready to abandon independence movement if only they gave DOMINION STATUS accorded to white expatriates , canada and australia.Contrast this KASHMIR GETTING SIX TIMES PER HEAD WHAT POOR BIHAR GETS. a former HOME MINISTER in govt of india is mufti sayyed, not to mention gulam nabi azad never won from kashmir yet a constant in congress govt.No wonder the stone throwers were in jeans and T shirt and not tatty baniyan as we saw the child labour in CWG games preparation.
    Also as bengali you should know during BENGAL FAMINE , britain(more specifically churchill) send to holland all the grain but did not send to india despite pleading by few honourable english men.. this is from patrick french “liberty or death ” page 181 , last para
    “Churchill’s decision to restrict grain imports to india in order to save ships for war effort was deliberate.page 182, it is estimated between one and three million people died over the three years of bengal famineHopefully you will not degrade your intellect by such ludicrous and insane comparison. However i fully accept that kashmiris in the valley (stone throwers or else have every right to do what ever they choose , and if that is the case why India should haemorrhage and how can you reconcile the idea of india in your words togetherness, so ultimately it is a liability. As to the solution , I have given my views interested to know yours.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    bobby

    How can you say Modi was actively involved in the riots? Were you there? At the end of the day it is one Human rights guy stating something tos omebody –or a citizen informing something tos omebody as he sees it .. We all know Kurozowas famous movie where 12 people tell different truths.

    Now, let us say he was actively involved. and it was a state sponsored program. While I am personally against violence, I believe it is a necessary tactic in statecraft. The fact is that Gujrat has been very quiet,, devoid of any communal problems ever since. No Muslim will dare a Godhra or create communal problem. No Hindu either. So, in that sense, if Gujarat remains riot free for another 15 more years, sometimes that is the price to pay. It is like bombing Japan to end the world war. What wopuld have happened if Fascist Japanese have taken over Asia?.

    Violence and killings are bad. But why there is so much violence wherever Muslims are there? Why cannot Muslims live with others? Or for that matter with themselves? Philippines, Thailand, China, Rusiia, India, Parts of indonesia, many countries in Europe, list is endless.. Should Muslims look into themselves than blaming RSS all the time.

    Bobby Reply:

    Binoy,

    I am shocked. Did you actually justify the Gujarat riots? Are you saying, that Modi was right in killing Muslims living in Ahmedabad and other parts of Gujarat, for the crimes of a few on a railway station in Godhra?

    You do know that Graham Steines was murdered by an Indian Hindu. Suppose some Australians decide to slaughter your family, so that in future Hindus do not murder Australians. Would that be acceptable as a just act to you?

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Shan, its an insane and ludicrous comparison to you because you are an Indian. If you were a Kashmiri, or indeed an unbiased foreigner then it would not be a ludicrous comparison. Just like a Pakistani would never see why Bangladeshis did not want to stay with Pakistan, in spite of their being “so nice to them”. This is typical attitude of people brainwashed by nationalist propaganda.

    If you read what the human rights organizations have to say about Indian security forces torture and killings in Kashmir, then you will not find the comparison ludicrous.

    What I think is the solution does not matter. What the Kashmiris want is what is important. I think India should give them their right of self determination. They should be allowed to vote on whether they want to be with India or not…. not because they are a liability or asset…but rather because that would be the moral thing to do.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby are you out of your mind, bangladesh struggled to get its MOTHER TONGUE RECOGNISED. Bangladesh wanted to just have a proper representation as per the elections . I still have some respect for your views wont last long if you write such gibberish.

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Shan,

    I can bet you anything, that Pakistani elite would have justified what the Army of Pakistan was doing as well as what the Government of Pakistan was doing at the time. They would have called the Bangladeshi freedom fighters terrorists, and anti-national. Just as Indian elite do today and the British elite had done at their time. The behaviour of elite is quite predictable in any society. So your reaction is not a surprise.

    Regarding your “not respecting my views”, you might be in some illusion that I write what I do to earn your respect… well … thats not true.

    Vinay Reply:

    Why Kashmiri Muslims, who can associate themselves with Pakistani Panjabi muslims, can’t identify with Indian Muslims who also are in great number? Is it the colour difference?
    (cultural difference exists with both Pakistan and India).
    One more way these protesters irritate a 10th passed policeman (CPRF) from Bihar . One group shouts, “Teri kali soorat…” The other responds, “yak thuuuu!” (Your black face…and a collective spit).
    Mohajirs are also not well respected in Pakistan. Can muslims in this blog share, how much they can identify wiith a Kashmiri Muslim compared to a muslim from some other state (like north and south India)? (I am not speaking of Kashmiri Azadi here).

    shan Reply:

    I went to the robert fisk article, he is one WHITE man who will come out unscathed in north waziristan having followed him over the years , he was in The Times , before. However just posting a link will gave totally erroneous impression. That christians are leaving cannot be denied . BUT SO IS MUSLIMS, given such a hell hole those places have become. I had a patient yesterday from iraq, they are muslims , came year ago to uk as refugee , and there are many of them . If you are really interested in Middle east read “The arabs” by Eugene Rogan , there is no better book. Also I am baffled how robert fisk got it fantastically wrong when he says christians are majority in lebanon. They are not yet for last two hundreed years WHITE west has enforced this dictat , through constitutional mechanism that the President will be allways Christian and also the seats some bizarre calculation will have a slender christian majority. And this has been the bone of contention for centuries , the picture is very very complicated with Druze militia and all that.There are more lebanese muslims living in canada , US, and australia than in lebanon itself. Also this prejudice was non existent in Iraq , during saddam , remember Tariq Aziz, the face of iraq is a christian. The prejudice is because west that has wrought havoc is christian , thus the syllologism, christian =crusade=bush =west.
    The only two places where is genuine prejudice against christians are saudi and Egypt, it is no coincidence AlQuaida no1, a saudi, no2, an egyptian.However we need opinion on kashmir, not far way places.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan

    Whatever may be the contradictions and inconsistencies, I am for keeping all J&K as a part of India by force and coercion (a ka Tibet/China) if it had to be. More later, because I am rushing to work

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    Good points, Zia! Imagine what would happen in South America if the indigenous people were trying to take revenge for what the white Spanish occipiers did in the previous centuries. India can be a successful multi-religious country only if we overcome our history- not use history (or an interpretation of it) for narrow and sectarian political ends. The nation state of India which aims to guarantee religious freedom and equality to all its citizens did not exist in the 16th century, but it does now and we should want it to survive and succeed and not drag India back to the 16th century. Down with LK Advani and other Hindu extremist fanatics posting on your blog!

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    @Mitra

    People like you are the real problem of Infia; simplistic, bookish. Marxist answers for complex, deep problems, You think people are machines, give them new rules, and they will tow in line. Well, in China they do.

    Who talked about taking revenge? who talked about taking peoples freedom away? Who wants to take countries back to 16th century (there is only one group taht wans to take people and countries back; that is the MUSLIM terrorists who want to go back to the sandshore sof Arabia of 650).

    Secularists like you create an artificial problem/fodder, and then pull all others down. Fortunately, people have become more assertive and knowledgeable. So, it is not easy to fool them.

    We may not have had secularism and freedom of minorities to start with if they are all lost because of ONE court verdict!

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    bINOY IS RIGHT!

    YOU MUSLIMS WHO WANT FREEDOM AGAIN!!!!!!!!! GO BACK TO ARABIA !!!!!!!!!!!

    THE NERVE OF YOU INSURGENTS UNBELIVEABLE!………FIRST IRAN, THEN PAK THEN BANGERSTAN AND NOW YOU GUYS WANT KASHMIR ………….

    PS. VOTE FOR DUDE FOR NEXT KING / PRESIDENT / PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA!

    I’LL SHOW WHAT I’D DO WITH THESE ISLAMIC INVADERS!

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    SO now we have pakki troops firing missiles on indian territory…………while they campaign for independant kashmir………so they can occupy the indian soldiers while 500 terrorists can infiltrate into india! hmmmmmmmmmmmm

    what is this indian government doing?

    if some country fired against china or usa ………… this will be totally considered as an act of war! these chumps would haVE destroyed the attacker and waged full war on the twerps!

    while india sits back and makes media comments about dialogue for peace and debates with pok and china on jammu & kashmir ………… already land taken by the sweet chinks!

    also occupied with terrorist prostitute arundhati roy asking for a new muslim country to be born……..another terrorist country at the foot of india!……………

    INDIAN GOVERNMENT WAKE UP RE CONVERT ALL THESE MUSLIM BASTWERDS………AND ACT FOR GOODNESS SAKE …………..WAGE WAR ON THESE INSURGENT PAKKIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ZIA PLEASE RE CONVERT TO YOUR ANCESTRAL RELIGION!

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    Let us not forget the MUMBAI ATTACKS on 26/11/08 by ………. surprise surprise MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Hi Bobby,

    “Firstly, I have always said that Sikh and Gujarat riots both show the violent and immoral nature of the Indian state.”
    No Bobby; that is the simplistic view. The “State” hides the 3 branches of the government, the media and the Indian society. Our concept of nationhood is relatively young; as a political entity we have existed for 60 years. I think we have progressed in many directions; we have perhaps regressed in many as well- another time for that.
    But, the 3 branches of the state and the media are all a product of the society- all WIP (or Regress!). The Thanedar at the villages who enforce the writ of the state, the thug turned politician who is my municipal councillor/ MLA.. or the judges.. they have all come through the system. PC talks about a huge shortage of IPS officers; Sibal should worry about the education system, right from the primary level that produces our future citizens. The scale of the problem is huge.

    “One difference between the two, though is that while the congress is an oppurtunist party, with no permanent Ideology, the Sangh Parivar has a vicious Ideology. ”
    It is just your opinion, isn’t it? And, please don’t quote Golwalkar. He is dead, a relic. I sometimes suspect that you have read him more times than even Balasaheb Deoras had; certainly Mohan Bhagwat :-)

    “…. but I do not doubt for a minute that Modi’s government was actively involved in planning and executing the riots.”.. again, opinion. 300 Hindus died in Gujarat- many among them by police bullets- among the 1000 odd who died. Hardly a one sided affair.

    “How can you compare the legacy between two states, when one is totally integrated within Indian state, and another where there has been political unrest for decades.”
    Let us first agree that the nature of the “political unrest” is essentially sectarian and communal in nature. Any modern state must have the c o j o n e s to confront such unrest and not seen as buckling down in the face of it. What if the Bengalis in Calcutta wanted to drive out all the Biharis and Marwaris from the state? Or, the Gujarati Hindus wanted to drive out the 8% Muslims in the state? Should the state tolerate it? In the case of Kashmir, such a mass migration could not have happened without support from all 3 branches of the state, the dominant Muslim majority and a complicit media.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Hi Ashish,

    Once again, its a bit disingenious to compare Kashmir with any other Indian state. Kashmir is NOT just another Indian state. Kashmiris clearly have not accepted India’s claim over it. Every wrong that happens in Kashmir has to be looked at within that framework.

    The question one should ask is, would the injustice against Kashmiri hindus have happened if Kashmir had been granted their just demand to self determination? The answer is not clear to me.

    The Islamic fundamentalists in Kashmir probably would not have existed. In fact it is very likely that the history of South Asia in such a circumstance would have been one of co operation between Pakistan and India.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby utter bollocks, India did not usurp Kashmir , this was done in the same way as rajasthan , junagadh, hyderabad and hundreed or so prinicipality JOINED THE UNION. This is known as instrument of accession , which is perfectly legal as per international law , and done as the political geography of the time demanded.Far more fraudulent was accesion of SIKKIM , and the real conquest was GOA.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    No. Its not like other states. Which is why, it has special status. Which is why, Nehru had promised to hold a plebisite at some point of time. Which is why it was taken to the UN, which is why Indian and Pakistani leaders still discuss about Kashmir at meetings. If it was a settled issue, none of these need happen.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , it is not like other states ONLY FOR ONE REASON , Do I need to spell out , well here you have it , because muslim majority. Also as ignorant geelani also says if the muslims of other parts of pre partition india could have separate country , why this was not accorded to kashmir. For simple reason ALL THESE STATES WERE PART OF BRITISH EMPIRE, so british could do what they did. Kashmir was like the rest of apparently 600 principality WHICH WAS NOT BRITISH EMPIRE and English laws did not apply there. also give me a break if you think pakistan’s constant meddling in kashmir is due to genuine feeling for kashmiris. FIRST LET PAKISTAN ALLOW THE PASSAGE TO BIHARIS LIVING A PIG’S LIFE IN BANGLADESH who will sell their soul to get out of bangladesh and go to pakistan , though a fair number have sneaked into this oppressive milatary brutal RSS inspired country called india through BONGAON border.

    Bobby Reply:

    “@Bobby , it is not like other states ONLY FOR ONE REASON , Do I need to spell out , well here you have it , because muslim majority.”

    So much for your objectivity and rationality

    shan Reply:

    @bobby so what is the criterion of rationality and objctivity, kashmir is different because it has dal lake, it grows apple and has chinar trees, well barring dal lake rest is same in himachal pradesh , curious they for some strange reason despite not receiving largesse dont throw stones, burn buildings , shout abuses and talk about azadi , and guess what it is only?100 miles away.

    Bobby Reply:

    So did the Tamils in Sri Lanka support a civil war because they were muslims? Is tension in the North East because they are muslims? Do tribals in the heart of India resist the state because they are muslims? Did the Punjabi insurgency happen because the overwhelming majority were Muslims?

    Get a life Shan… and stop bragging about your “rationality and objectivity”… It makes me puke….

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Bobby
    That is a ccccc out. The BIG difference is that Muslims all over fight for separation wherever they are. They just cannot live with others. period. They acnnot live with themselves also.

    Chechnya, uyger, Thailand, Bali, Philippines, India … and pretty soon in Europe…..

    Sunni extremism is a cancer; it ha sto be killed through Cheemo.

    Muslims (some Muhjahuddin) have already started small agitations for two Muslim states in teh south Dakshin Canara and Malabar.Pretty soon they will want independence to join Pakistan.

    And Congress govt will yield..because tehy want votes..

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby your sweeping generalistion only fatally undermines your “entrenched BLIND position”.
    Just because a few muslim nutters goes about celebrating orgy of violence, mean all muslims are supporters of Bin laden. Similarly Vaiko may have made overt support for prabhakaran , doesn’t mean entire tamil nadu was head over heels with prabhakaran. As to supporting tamils in jafna I have supported the idea of them gettingall the rights that a federal structure of india affords to its states. This is the same position of Govt of India who have categorically said THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE IDEA OF EELAM.
    next is punjab, for historians to note , this is my analysis why khalistanism took place . Punjab is too much dependent on agriculture(Mera culture to agriculture hai) and as population increased exponentially , land didn’t , so holding got smaller and smaller with many family now off land. Literacy is not high , coupled with feeble industrialisation and the CATALYST of NRI khalistanis. I can say a word or two about them. They emigrated all over the world manily UK and canada ., still strictly adhering to five K’s. They are TOTALLY CUT OFF from mainstream because the ones who came were mostly non professional class. In order to hang on to some cause (idle brain devil’s worshop) they found this Khalsa . The people who extinguished this fire were SIKHS Lt Col BRAR who led the battle of golden temple, who wrote that thank goodness we got rid of the menace called bhindranwale , and the other was KPS Gill who said he conducted research and found these terrorist emanated from few selected towns and villages. once established that the rest of the job was easy. When you have a PM from your community which makes only 2%of the total population of india , the sistersof the PM live not far from where I come from in calcutta, who needs seccession.
    Now reversing your argument why ORISSA which has kalahandi, west bengal which has highest percentage of people below poverty line , jharkhand which has 60% of india minerals dont SECCEDE. Open your eyes , embrace honesty , a la L Mirza . As for me getting a life , planning to visit
    national gallery to see Canaletto and planning to order in my local library the latest book by ramchandra guha “The men who made India”

    Ashish Reply:

    Hi Bobby,
    when you say Kashmiris, you mean the Sunni Muslims of the valley, do you not? I suggest you read Yogi Sikand’s article.
    I wrote elsewhere, in a different context, that “we Indians have no stomach for a long drawn out solution, only for a long drawn out problem”. We have allowed, by various acts of omission and commission the situation to totally get out of hand over sixty years; and now, we must have a solution- done and dusted, right now. In time for MMS to leave office on a high with a Nobel prize in the bag.

    Shan, the migration did not happen in one day- or only under one regime. And, it was never my point that Jagmohan was a great administrator or indeed, one man alone can make a difference, either positive or negative.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “when you say Kashmiris, you mean the Sunni Muslims of the valley, do you not?”

    I mean the majority of people in the Kashmir Valley…. If thats not true, why does India have 700000 troops there?

    “we Indians have no stomach for a long drawn out solution, only for a long drawn out problem”

    Thats just the opposite of the truth. We Indians can keep on holding on to a piece of land by force, whether its by jailing popular leaders there when they prove in convenient, or by rigging elections, or by keeping a population under army rule for decades, and even by giving extraordinary powers to them as in the North East. Oh yes! we can (and have) perpetrate brutal violence for as long as it takes to break a population.

    If we were the super powers today, as powerful as the US is, my feeling is we would have been worse attrocities than the US does currently.

    Ashish Reply:

    No, Bobby. You and Geelani are singing from the same song-sheet; it is the Sunni Muslims of the valley.
    I see my statement re’ problem/ solution has been misunderstood. We have taken 60 years to create a problem. Unless you mean that we have been doling out solutions, these last six decades :-) Now, a mess created over 60 years by Congress will be solved in 20 days? By the same Congress?
    I see you are doling out advices regarding the need to separate the state from the people; so, lay off the “we Indian” bit, will you? Do understand the rigged elections were done by your beloved CONgress party led governments (much less dangerous than the Sangh Parivar), the mess in Punjab, North East, Kashmir have all been created by the CONgress. Now, of course, Congress is still the darling of the jholawalas and JNU types- decades of patronage of “art and culture” has to bear fruit.
    To understand where you come from, I quote Arundhati Roy: “India is a cage in which millions of people of different nationalities are held against their will” http://bit.ly/9Ud2Ne

    shan Reply:

    @ashish, we took sixty years to create this problem . In one word OVERSIMPLIFICATION. The problem was always there , there were good days and bad days. Two good moments can be placed here.One is hanging of bhutto , Incredible it may seem KASHMIRI SLOGANS ACTUALLY DEMANDED POK TO BE WREST BACK FROM PAKISTAN. Next is infamous EMERGENCY and defeat of Indira gandhi. As the anti congress coalition was a mad hatters party, nobody new who was going to form the next govt. The then President asked SKEIKH ABDULLAH TO BE STANDBY TO TAKE OVER AS PM OF INDIA , if no consensus emerges.Strife is universal . In USA ,people are not aware in deep south there is a strong undercurrent of seccecenism(Vinoy Hegde will have to say more). They have their own flag the southern conferdate flag, and their bigotted , regressive world view will make RSS look like a pansy.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby your lines
    The question one should ask is, would the injustice against Kashmiri hindus have happened if Kashmir had been granted their just demand to self determination? The answer is not clear to me
    Pretty clear to me when one keeps in mind the near extinction of hindu population in Pakistan , the flood of chakma refugees from bangaldesh to north east india. And galringly the undoing of west bengal due to avalanche of HINDU REFUGEE influx from Bangladesh. I will be grateful for your estimate as to many WEST BENGAL(Ghati) Muslims crossed over to bangladesh . The demographic picture shows in bangladesh the hindu popul;ation in a slippery slope , in west bengal (which is part of brutal , oppressive anti muslim , rss inspired India ) the population shows exponential growth now nearly TWENTY FOUR PERCENT(yes you have read it correct)

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Ashish,

    You can live in your fairy land dream world, where the only reason there is a problem in India, is because of the Congress. The BJP is Congress on steroids. If any of its policies had been implemented for the last fifty years, the country would already have been either broken up or it would have been a hindu contry by now, under permanent military rule.

    Regarding Kashmir… to repeat there are 700000 military people in the Kashmir valley. Thats about one military person for every 15 civilians roughly….. Read that figure again….. Its more than the density of military to civilians in any other place, including American forces in Afghanistan or Iraq. I think it would be more than Israeli force density in Palestine. Its mind boggling.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    to borrow from and paraphrase the much quoted Clarence Darrow saying, when you have nether facts nor logic on your side; you hammer on your opinions.
    When Yogi Sikand is inconvenient; ignore him. When Babasaheb Ambedkar is inconvenient; ignore him too.
    If we follow your drift; India stole Kashmir from Pakistan (against the legitimate aspirations of all Kashmiris) and since then have been maintaining this 700K troops there as a repressive force. The Sunni militancy is a result of the “Occupation force” being there.
    All Hindus, Buddhists, Shias and of course all Sunnis in Kashmir are against the “occupation force”.
    Quite.
    Minority aspirations are legit for 8% Muslims in Gujarat. Minority aspirations for 30% Hindus/ Buddhists in J&K are not.
    This is precisely the kind of sentiment that has fuelled the growth of BJP.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, with JAGMOHAN at the helm it is rather impausible that there was connivance from the state (meaning bureaucracy). Perhaps you would like to enlighten us.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Hi Bobby,
    in case you have not read this, interesting piece by Yoginder Sikand
    http://beta.epw.in/static_media/PDF/archives_pdf/2010/10/SA100210_Jihad,_Islam_Yoginder_Sikand.pdf

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, went to kashmir observer, the kind of statement Miss Roy and Nawlakha is making is a mirror image of both HOOK CLERIC(His hand was blown off in afganistan) Abu hamza , the preacher in finsbury park mosque and Omar bakri was making. he was asking british muslims to go and fight fellow BRITISH citizens(soldiers) in afganistan and iraq. Anglo saxon world is based on LEGALISM , this is sedition , also he has been despatched to US to face trial.The problem is there is so much ignorance all around. I find it staggering how people can be so arrogant and dismiss all the legal codes. Accession of kashmir was 100% legal full stop. That the kashmiris want to seccede is another matter , but to call india occupying force is just the rant of a rabid mullah, a bit like ahmedinazidad, blaming jews for 9/11. Same whinging about Babri Mosque ruling , well we might well as have no courts , or kangaroo courts and no laws but sharia , a bit like no god but allah. I remember having a conversation with a CPM fellow , in Bel Vue clinc in calcutta. I told him people talk about bangladeshi muslim infiltration , how about bangladeshi Hindu infiltration. He said well if it is hindu , then obviously we will have a soft corner. This bangladesh business, lets dissect it . They voted with their feet and swept muslim league to power. They got East pakistan , then the very country very hindu , had to help them gain independence . And it doesn’t stop there few coup later , mass infiltration into assam , nawadweep , bongaon , even in your delhi and mumbai. it even doesn’t stop here , INDIA GIVES BILLION DOLLAR AID , to stop them harbouring and exporting terrorist. I am amazed how people can decide to look otherway and trample upon the lessons of history. though according to Bobby this is RSS version of history.

    to face trial for waging war against america. The problem is there is ignorance galore. Leaving aside what kashmiris want or not , the simple fact is the accession is perfectly legal and according to international law. That nehru dug his hole with promise

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Bobby, Shan, Ashish

    Freedom, my a-s.

    What if majority of Mumnaikers want to secede and create their Hong Kong? What if majority Muslims of 24 parganas want a separate country? Where does feedom begin and end?

    Bobby, I will stay yes (may be because it is ion a discussion forum and not actual environment!) to your question of what if Austarlians killed my family so that future peace is prevailed . Hopefully Austalians will not kill for one murder.

    Gujrat today is peaceful. No more skirmishes. No more stone throwings. No more riots.

    Pandit Nehru created a mess there, and that mess made sure no Pandit can live there. If Nehru had his way, Hyderabad and a big part of present day Andhra Pradesh would have gone to Pakistan or become another Muslim country on the border. Nehru aspired to be a world leader, India be damned.

    Does CXhina care what tibetans think? What world thinks?

    We are not China, but we better be China in certain aspects – in building stadiums and in suppressing regional uprises. Kashmir has gone for a long time. The genesis is not 1947; but late eighties when the queen of freedom Mrs Benazir Bhutto and her henchman Hamid Gul started sending ISI trained hardcore terrorists there.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, agree a fair bit, but we cannot do a tibet , its just not Indian , lot of things indians are incapable of like eating fried cockroaches, Tiger’s penis(would you beleive it , it is highly sought after in china and I have seen this on Tv paul merson’s china, and this explains vanishing tigers in India) and we dont need to do because tibet is huge full of natural resources , and chinese wont be able to hold on long hopefully. In case of kashmir , its a constant distraction , MASSIVE drainage of resource and in return you get stone throwing and abuses.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “but we cannot do a tibet , its just not Indian”

    Typical religious self-righteous illusions. Yeah its just not Indian, except in Kashmir and the North East, In Gujarat, and now right inside the heart land- against the tribals. Yes we nice guys cant do such bad things. What a joke!

    “In case of kashmir , its a constant distraction , MASSIVE drainage of resource and in return you get….”

    Oh yes, we nice guys keep on trying to help them with no other intent but helping them, (thats of course obviously true, since thats just not Indian) while those idiots there just dont get it….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby and Ashish , read the article by Yoginder Sikand. This is really incredible india , “satya selucus key bichitro aye desh”, apparently the author is prof CENTER FOR STUDY OF SOCIAL EXCLUSION, juxtapose with child labour in CWG . This is a cut and paste from the conclusion of the article.
    The inconsistencies and contradictions in Geelani’s approach to azadi are also reflected in his understanding of the awam, the people,
    of Jammu and Kashmir, whose political voice he claims to be, equating the anti-Indian constituency among the Sunni Kashmiri
    Muslims with the entire population of the state. Consequently, the aspirations of the substantial non-Muslim minority in Jammu and Kashmir come to be completely silenced, while the Kashmiri Muslim
    ethno-nationalists, who oppose his agenda of merger with Pakistan
    and his Maududist-style “Islamic state”, are summarily branded as nothing short of traitors to Islam, as Geelani
    understands
    it. Accordingly, it can be said that despite the widespread perception of him as the icon of azadi and hero of the Kashmiri Muslim resistance, Geelani’s political project and his Islamist vision
    represent the aspirations of only a relatively small, and apparently
    diminishing, minority of pro-Pakistan Kashmiri Muslims.WOULD L MIRZA AND SYED PLEASE STEP IN.
    I have been constantly saying about the PIED PIPER EFFECT OF ISLAM. Also again reading this article which is a treasure trove of information , it reinforces my beleif that the best solution is referendum in the valley only(Incredible according to this article which quotes geelani himself , GEELANI IS NOT AVERSE TO THE IDEA OF REFERENDUM IN VALLEY ONLY)AND SETTLE THE PRO PAKISTANI ALONG LOC, PANDITS AND PRO INDIAN ALONG JAMMU/VALLEY BORDER AND AZADI SANDWICHED IN BETWEEN. Apparently curiously geelani sees only one option merger with pakistan , azadi to him is from india , not a separate state , that idea to him is sheer bunkum.May I politely request Bobby to enlighten us WHAT BENEFIT IF ANY , indian people have got from kashmir.

    Bobby Reply:

    “WHAT BENEFIT IF ANY , indian people have got from kashmir.”

    This is a common error, people make. The Indian STATE is not synonymous with Indian people. The right question is… what does the Indian State get out of it.

    What the state has got out of it… Well I can only guess, but one reason which is very likely, though definitely not the only one, is that it is in the nature of nation-states to act as “goondas” do in a locality.

    They have to show who is the boss. In South Asia, India sees itself as the local dada. So it must have its say. Its pretty much as the US behaves in the world stage, or for that matter previous powers have behaved.

    Giving away Kashmir, would mean loss of “Prestige”. It would give the signal that people do not accept its rule and authority in its own backyard. That obviously no power can accept…. unless its forced by an even bigger super power.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    A nation state has to protect its territorries and people (who are for the nation state) . India should use all the tools in its tool kit, including military, to suppress secession. What China is doing in Tibet is what any country should do. Power i respected, obeyed. Anything else is illusion.

    Especially when it comes to Msulims — whether one endorses what happened in Gujrat, the fact remains that things are calm because of the show of power. gujrat could raise the living standards of ALL its people because of the peace and calm.

    High time Indian politicians rule for the benefit of teh country than for constant appeasement of various subcategories.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby , you have also made a small error , a state beyond reproach , where there is no elected representatives to represent the state , and a state bereft of the thing called independent judiciary which can pull up functionaries of the state is to be found in the independent geelani inspired kashmir that you want to see take shape.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Binoy

    “to your question of what if Austarlians killed my family so that future peace is prevailed . Hopefully Austalians will not kill for one murder.”

    That does not answer the question. Would it be fair if some Australians, lets say some relatives of the murdered person, kills your family… Would that be just and right thing to do? Would you endorse it?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Power i respected, obeyed.”

    Thats the mentality of a slave.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    That is what Muslims know annd want. That is why PAkistan is always ruled by military. That is why useless people like Mubarek, Sadam husain, Saudi prince, Basher etc continue to rule.

    Muslims are comfortable with a King deciding for them. They cannot adapt to democracy. It just is not in their DNA, whatever secularists say.

    They want a caliphate

    Bobby Reply:

    @Binoy,

    I think you mentioned somewhere that you are in the US. One request. Please stay put there. Idiots like you are better off being outside India.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bobby, well if Binoy , is working in wall street , is unlikely to fit your description.I am making this assumption from a fantastic exchange he had with another NRI from US ?Ajay, from which I derived alot of knowledge

    Bobby Reply:

    We have already seen the “brilliance” and not to speak of the “honesty” of people working in Wall street at the global level….

  • Kishan

    A few points to ponder for Zia:
    1-Do the Christians and Muslims say that all religions are equal or have similarities? They emphasize the superiority of their religion.
    2-Was Shah Bano amendment an effort by a secularist state to emphasize similarity between Islam and Hinduism? Hindutva was a reaction to such appeasement to an obscurantist mindset in the name of secularism.
    3-Isn’t the concept of secularism still not preposterous even in India’s immediate neighbourhood in the north west from where the temple-razers came? Are Indian Muslims completely de-linked from that area?
    4-The mosque that was assaulted was not just any mosque, there are many thousand mosques in India, it was a standing reminder to the Hindus how they were assaulted and subjugated just about 800 years back. 1992 was a moment of liberation for Hindus in that sense.
    5-Ram Janmabhoomi was loaded with anti-Muslim import not by the Advaniji and RSS who just wanted the Hindus to get their confidence in their own civilization back, but by the secularists. Even today the secularist are dishonestly trying to obliterate this vital difference, just to ingratiate themselves with the Muslims. One is sometimes amazed at the great influence that a violent ideology like Islam exercises on the psyche of the Indian secularists.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    nice fairy tale, Fortunately its all BS.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Hinduatva and RSS/VHP are violent idelogies and organistaions.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan vedicism or hinduism is the only rteligion which says that men are born un equal.islam stands foe egalitarianism.brhmnst hate for budhdhism to communism is becase of that.

    lie that temple was at the place of mosque,was fabricated to grab mosque and its adjoining land.on 6th december they also demolished 19 temples in viccinity of mosque.

    construction of mosque was started by ibrahim lodhi baber completed this.

    sangh parivar has plan to rule india on such issues.ayodhya was built and flourished under muslim like all temple cities.

    AYODHYA WAS BUDHDHIST CITY THEN IT CAME IN JAINESE HAND ,VEDICS ARE LATE COMMERS.they demolished jainese and budhhdist cities like mathura and kashi.
    it is they who demolished holy places of others.BRHMNS WHO ARE NOW AGAINST MUSLIMS WERE THE ALLY MUSLIMS.

    since their arrival on indian soil they are looting and plundering india.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    crazy Pakistani, take care of the floods and violence in your country… Dont come on here..U crazy illiterate

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Binoy,
    Mr Ram Autar, to the best of my knowledge and belief, is not a Pakistani. He is an Indian.
    If his stated position seems consistent with Pakistanis, it is because Mr Ram Autar and his intellectual guru, one celebrated Kancha Illaiah see Dalits and Muslims as forming a grand alliance against the Hindus.
    They use Hindus/ Brahmins interchangeably and rather loosely. If you wish to educate/ amuse yourself over the weekend, I could recommend your spending time in this priceless website called http://dalitnation.wordpress.com/
    There you will learn: (among others)
    * Aishwarya Rai – A victim of Brahmin Conspiracy
    * Why Babasaheb Married a Brahmin
    * The eleven Brahmins and eleven million fools
    * Kancha Ilaiah – Why I am not a Hindu
    * Brahmins Destroyed the dravidian Indus Valley civilization
    * Beware of Meditation
    * Brahmin Deception through Dalai Lama

    I honestly think these are essential reading for any Indian for his education to be complete.

    shan Reply:

    Well this is digression we better keep it for another day , but just to remind bloggers BLACKS IN AMERICA also hold not so dissimilar views regarding whites. Also Paul Thoreaux has described V.S naipaul as having nothing but “race in his head. Amazing few people never change, lecturing is one thing receiving is another. Few of the views expressed in the dalit website will certainly warm the cockles of some bloggers.here is a cut and paste
    The BJP used the Ram Janma Bhoomi movement to rope in the Backward Castes. But that movement has died down as the Backward castes have realised that BJP is only intrested in their own Jati and they do not care for the Sudras. And about Dalits they do not even treat them as Humans. The only support BJP has now is from the 15% upper caste dwija vote bank. Even this 15% is fractured to a great extent. The Congress with thier pro upper caste policies have aliented the Bahujans. That is why there are so many regional parties like DMK, PMK,JD(S) and the leftists. All these people have literally killed the congress votebank.

    The Manuwadis supporting the Brahmin Jati party has made their biggest mistake. Because now there is no way the BJP can come to power with their old and senile leader L.K.Advani. The butcher of Gujrath, the OBC Narendra Modi has no support outside Gujrath. BJP is just a dying party. Its use is over.

    shan Reply:

    @Ram Autar , here we go again, we are discussing kashmir here, not bramhinical orthodoxy.
    However some examples of islamic egalitarianism or you to ponder about.
    You can beat gently your wife if she refuses sex.
    A women’s witness is same as an imbecile man.
    A man can have four wives , a woman if found speaking or holdind hands wth anybody other than husband will be stoned to death.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Kishan your words “One is sometimes amazed at the great influence that a violent ideology like Islam exercises on the psyche of the Indian secularists”
    Well they dont, this is unbridled hypocrisy , you cant be secular yet beleive in anything that islam currently offers , it is oxymoron , you can at best tolerate. The irony is that it is impossible for the same islamicist to accept these seculars as equal , and will not be spared death should they be found wandering in pakistan , more specifically north waziristan .

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    We have a mid-term election here in US next Tuesday. All indications are that the candidates who have openly expressed their fear/hatred/dislike whatever you may call of, of Muslims will win big time.

    USA is the most accommodating and “admitting” country. PEopel from all over teh world migrate and make a living contributing and enriching themselves and the country. They are proud to say it is a country built by immigarnts.

    And now a majority of people find accepting Muslims, espcially Pakistani Muslims (because of the terror connection) simply an impossibility.

    In a land where constitution is revered, these people were able to block the construction of a mosque near ground zero.

    Americans are slowly coming to the conclusion Muslims = trouble

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    I was in US three months ago, after two years, and the change was visible

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    Poor L.K. Advani, the Sindhi Khatri, who did so much and also suffered so much to keep the Bhoodevatas in power, is today the most hated man in the Brahmana Jati Party (BJP). It was he who led the rowdies brigade to destroy the Babri Masjid.

    But today there is none with him. The country’s principal Brahmin paper, the Hindu (Sept.26, 2010) says it in the headlined itself: “Advani sidelined in Ram temple issue”.

    Gandhi killed: Did not the same Bhoodevatas exploit the Gujarati Bania to the fullest extent and the moment India got “independence” and he helped install a Brahmin as the first PM, he was shot dead by a Brahmin only? (Why Godse Killed Gandhi?, ). And his tribe distributed sweets all over India.

    We have said this many times. Never pour milk to the serpent. Kill it. The moment you see it. Those who do not listen to this advice will go the Advani way. His own creation, Modi, has also betrayed him.

    But will Advani have the courage to go against BJP and fight the serpents? Never.

    advani came to india in 1959 through BOAC when all his colleagues were caught for installing bomb at public meeting in karachi.now he is living dead,inspite of serving brhmnsm for 6 decades.

    [Reply]

  • Rahul

    Well, all of us should understand that what Advani said, is believed by many other Indians too. There is nothing wrong in seeing the freedom of India in connection with some expectations from Hindus.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Those who read the great epic Mahabharatha know that the great war could have been avoided if Bishma had made the right decision upfront. On passing away of Pandu, his son should have been the king . That is the norm. Nobody else has the right, Dhrithrashtra, although elder to Pandu, was not the king (for obvious reasons), and his son Duryodhana did not have any right of inheriting the country. The lineage passses to whoever is the king and his progeny..

    Bhishma, instead of giving the whole country to Yudhishtira, suggests/decides to split into half. That was illegal decision, against all the norms then and now.. Yudhishtira was the rightful king for the whole country; and by dividing Bhishma saw the seeds of the great war.

    Pandit Nehru was worse than Bhishma. No need to accept the rules set by a defeated country (Britain), and no need to “dillydally” with the people of the valley. He created the mess through unneeded solutions, may be based on his sense of justness, may be based on his own ambition to be a world leader and not as the “ruler’ of a recently born country with numerous issues to be resolved on a countrywide basis. Nehru created the scenario of this new “Kurukshetra war”.

    The question for the emerging (yes, it is finally emerging), resurgent, strong, confident, assertive India is do we have a country or do we have groups who vote? Kashmir is India’s and let India be man enough to state that and act accordingly

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Kashmir is India’s and let India be man enough to state that and act accordingly”

    Even if we have to put every Kashmiri behind bars… even if we need to have 1: 1 ratio of Kashmiri civilians to Indian military men…. even if we have to (to paraphrase the brilliant Arundhati Roy), “pull out their finger-nails in order to force them to say they are Indians”

    This is what nationalistic brainwashing can achieve. One does not even realize when one has crossed over to a barbaric society.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    The level of hypocricy in Indian Middle class is remarkable. Here just a few days back, there was this chest thumping in the Media, about how dissidents in China are jailed. Just a few days later, they were demanding that Arundhati Roy be arrested for sedetion!

    What hypocrites!!

    The nutcase Rajeev posted some article by some Pakistani called Nissar or some such name, who was bravely talking about the faults in the Pakistani Government. That Idiot did not even realize that, just like here in India all “patriotic Indians”, call Arundhati and other dissidents as traitors, so also in Pakistan, Nissar and company would be called “traitors”.

    Rajeev of course does not have even a gram of brain in his cranium, so its beyond his capability to realize the similarity in his and other “patriotic Indians” views on A. Roy and that of “Patriotic Pakistanis” views on Nissar.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @bobby , calm down my mate, you will give yourself a coronary thrombosis(heart attack). Chinese dissident happens to be a recipient of this year nobel prize , not in physics but for peace. The goddess called Miss Ray, whom you seem to worship FLOUTED PLANNING LAWS WHEN BUILDING HER XANADU. So much for envirnmental concern, also it is really impossible to empathise with tribals unless your pad happens to be a xanadu. Oh yes how about a few words about the 40% or so people living below the poverty line in hallowed progressive secular marxist west bengal. A few tears for them rather than two thousand miles away in jeans and T shirt clad stone throwers will be appreciated , as they say charity begins at home.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Guns can never silence Kashmiri craving for Azadi : Hate-Muslim policy destroys very fabric of India
    Guns alone cannot suppress any people fighting for self-determination and liberation. This is the lesson of history and applies to all human rights struggles and particularly Kashmir, where we have been seeing the ugliest and the most barbaric face of Brahminism killing innocent Kashmiri youths. Whether it is the Congress or the Brahmana Jati Party (BJP), any govt. sitting in Delhi has only one answer to the Kashmiri aspirations for Azadi. Bullets. Change of govt. brings no change in policy because the man in the driver’s seat is the same hate-mongering Vaidik Brahmin.
    Editor not allowed to enter Kashmir: Kashmiri Muslims fighting for Azadi were all Brahmins (Pundits) till recently but they revolted against this violent cult and sought liberation under Islam. The Brahminists who usurped the Delhi throne through a deep-rooted conspiracy of the Jews and “Jews of India” with the help of the cunning Gujarati Bania, M.K. Gandhi, have launched a reign of terror on every section of the Indian society whose suppressed voice is heard only through DV, the Voice of the Persecuted Nationalities Denied Human Rights.
    The Editor of DV was invited by the Azadi leaders to visit Kashmir but was not allowed by the Brahminist leaders.
    Those interested in knowing the roots of the Kashmir problem and facts of the Brahminical reign of terror may order a photocopy of the book, The Challenge in Kashmir (1997) by Dr. Sumantra Bose, himself an upper caste Bengali Baidya but a distinguished Western-educated historian (pp.210, Rs. 150).
    Pakistan accepts plebiscite: The then Dogra ruler of Kashmir, Hari Singh, might have “acceded” to India but it was strictly conditional on a “reference to the people” of Kashmir — meaning plebiscite. The Kashmiri Brahmin, the first PM of India, J.L. Nehru, on Nov.2, 1947 declared his govt. “pledge” to “hold a referendum under international auspices (read UN) to determine the wishes of the people. He repeated this “pledge” many times.
    Pakistan also accepted the plebiscite solution. Accordingly the UN passed a resolution accepting plebiscite.
    But the Brahminist rulers never believed in keeping up any commitment. Their argument is:
    (1) Pakistani forces failed to vacate portions under their control (a pre-condition under the UN resolution for plebiscite), (2) Kashmir’s lawful ruler acceded to India.
    If both the above arguments are acceptable, says Dr. Bose, why did Nehru commit India for plebiscite despite the legality of Kashmiri rulers accession to India?
    (3) Brahminist rulers often shout that Kashmir is our integral part of India. Fine. This opinion, they say, is based on the repeated elections held in Kashmir where its “democratically elected representatives have repeatedly and freely ratified the moral and legal validity of accession to India in free election”.
    Bogus claim: The UN, however, still stands by plebiscite. Even the US Govt. till very recently, maintained that “Kashmir is a disputed territory”.
    Rigged elections: Indian rulers say pro-India elements have always won in different state elections and the people of Kashmir have voted for staying with India. Accepted. “Then why the Brahminists are opposing plebiscite?”, ask the Kashmiri people. Simple. The elections are totally rigged to promote anti-people Brahminical cockroaches. That the Kashmir people through their MLAs have voted to remain in India is a total bogus claim. This is proved in the recent uprising which could not be controlled even by the brute force launched by the Tamil Chettiar killing scores of young Kashmiris.
    We had been to Kashmir and met its revolutionary leaders like Jalil Andrabi, a prominent human rights lawyer from Kashmir, who was brutally killed in Srinagar in 1996.
    The “unanimous opinion” of the Kashmiris is they are not fighting and dying to join Pakistan. They want only Azadi, self-determination. That is all.
    Toilet papers admission: Brahminist rulers may send brute force to crush the Kashmir struggle for Azadi but it can never win the hearts of Kashmiris. Brahminical toilet papers themselves have admitted this. Corrupt and discredited politicians like Farooq Abdullah and his son Omar with no roots in the soil of Kashmir are intensely hated people. The latest revolt is also against these “foreign imposters”.
    The Kashmiri Brahmin micro-minority well-entrenched in Delhi is manipulating the current “war” against Azadi with the aid of the Brahminists in RAW and IB but they will never succeed.
    Constitution itself destroyed: The Brahminical rulers have throughout used brute force with the support of their Jewish cousins not only to suppress Kashmiris but also ride rough-shod on the aspirations of all the nationalities fighting for human rights. These persecuted nationalities include Dalits 20%, Tribals 10%, Muslims 15%, Christian and Sikhs (5%), Backward Castes 35%. All these nationalities are not even able to breath freely. They have been repressed, rebuffed and denied recognition. Brahminists did this by destroying the very constitution of India, bending the judiciary, media, and suppressing all human rights struggles. “National” toilet papers fully aided and abetted the destruction of the constitution. This is the only cause of India’s free fall. With over 85% of the Indian population of 1,300 million suppressed, their human rights mutilated how can the Brahminists ever allow the country to rise, socially, culturally and economically?
    PM’s wrong diagnosis: Our “Khatri Sick” PM thinks Kashmir is an economic problem. Nonsense. Kashmiri youths are fighting and dying not for “jobs”. The PM is consciously adding insult to injury by ridiculing the Kashmiri youth who are dying for Azadi.
    We are happy that the tumultuous events of July and August 2010 have drowned the two Abdullah cockroaches and brought to the fore the villain-turned overnight hero, Syed Ali Shah Geelani (81) who declared that Kashmir is a disputed territory. Brahminists admitted his “genuine leadership”.
    Withdraw the Army, lift curfew, hold plebiscite in Kashmir as desired by the people and the UN and accept the verdict. That is the only solution.
    Brahminists don’t love India: There will never be peace in India as long as Kashmir continues to boil. With Indian army committed to Kashmir, it will be a drag on the Indian economy. Nothing grows in Kashmir except apples. It is more a liability. China has already taken over the development of Azad Kashmir. Impoverished India with its rag-tag army will have no courage to face the nuclear-armed Pakistan supported by both China and also USA. The only reason the rulers are holding on to Kashmir at the cost of the country is to rouse the ‘majority Hindus” against “minority” Muslims. But in the process the Brahminists are only destroying India. But “whose father’s what goes?” Brahminists have already said they don’t belong to India and hence don’t love India. As the Bahujans have been mentally crushed and made voiceless, the rulers may temporarily ride the waves with the Kalmadis looting the crores. But how long this can continue?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @haram autar, how about telling The late bugti’s family in balochistan , , Mr sayed family in sindh, and ask why altaf hussain cannot return to pakistan , is it because it is too hot compared to london.Oh yes how about a rally in pakistan in support of tibetan self determination. WAKEY WAKEY

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram Awtar

    get a life, you idiot! You stay in your Pakistan, dont come over this side..Live in that great country of yours..

    By the way, another one of your fellow country man , one Ahmed, was arrested here yesterday for palnning to bomb the Washington DC metro station..

    You guys are idiots..will remain the most backward …

    And dont you try to coopt with dlaits, suppressed, etc.. You just speak for ur fellow Muslims..many who do not let anybody live in peace

    ram autar Reply:

    binoy hegde,2 crores hindus working in muslim countries peacefully are feeding half india.where there is no america there is peace.muslims are most peaceful people.

    shan Reply:

    This is to take up where I left, about the ashish nandi article. he mentions about India emulating outdated 19th century version of european nationalism . Why doesn’t Prof Nandi come to these blogs , I for one will give him a hard time. Perhaps because he breathes the fetid air of delhi it makes him completely oblivious to the current state of affairs in WHITE WORLD. Nationalism is alive and kicking well , and shows no sign of ageing. Binoy hegde will bear me out. In UK we have English nationalism , which is understated but vicious , and we have its reflection in Scottish nationalism ( SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY IS THE RULING PARTY in devolved govt in Edinburgh) as well as there is welsh nationalist (Maifun Glyndur, the glyndur guy is the last welsh chieftain to resist the english, mentioned by shakespeare).As for US just ask Binoy Hegde . Also as much Prof Nandi is fond of quoting Nehru , here is a quote which is appropriate. Nehru said “We have nothing to fear from chinese communism , plenty to fear from CHINESE NATIONALISM”. And what to say about FRENCH, try visiting paris , even if the guy is fluent in English WILL NOT ANSWER IN ENGLISH only fraincase will do.
    I LOATHE NATIONALISM , and I think nationalism is NOT APPLICABLE IN INDIA .
    India is a KHICHDI , AND WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF IT.
    I love khichdi like anything and will safely ignore a platter full of Coq Au Vin , Truffles, Salmon Roulade, or Ratatoulle or lamb navrin(this is for his namesake , these all have been tasted by me and lifted from bookjacket)

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,

    Why are you running all over the place. The article was about the Indian situation, not what is happening in Europe….

    shan Reply:

    Well, well, well , as galbraith has said, the poorer the country , the difficult it is to administer. If the so called “civilised” west , who coin the term human rights cannot live up to its own set standard , hardly possible for a very poor and mind bogglingly diverse recently decolonised country to match whatever lofty ideals one is aimimng at.

    ram autar Reply:

    When Kashmiris, Nagas, Maoists and others sought justice
    Jawed Naqvi
    Yesterday

    By Jawed Naqvi
    The creation of Pakistan from the Indian subcontinent was not inevitable. It happened despite several attempts to avert its formation, including efforts by the Muslim League. Former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh has given a compelling account in his book of the Congress party’s arrogance and culpability in forcing Jinnah to say enough is enough.

    By the same token, the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan was not a pre-determined fact.

    Islamabad’s grievous mishandling of the situation led to a truncated Pakistan. The same argument could apply to Kashmir. It is of course not surprising that the Indian middle class, led by its Murdochian TV channels, advocates military force to tame Kashmir’s anti-India upsurge in the way Gen Yahya Khan unleashed military terror in East Pakistan. However, somewhat hypocritically while it celebrates India’s military intervention, which led to the creation of Bangladesh, when it comes to Kashmir the Indian middle class takes the opposite view.

    As with Pakistan and later with Bangladesh, there was, and perhaps still is, nothing imminent about Kashmir’s Azadi from India. But everything has been mishandled for years (and is being made worse on a daily basis) by New Delhi. And that has paved the way for people to believe that Azadi is the only option which gives them justice and dignity. In the early days of Kashmir’s alienation from New Delhi, Nehru had asked leftist film scribe Khwaja Ahmed Abbas to intervene on his behalf with Sheikh Abdullah. Nehru died before there could be progress. Now Manmohan Singh has assembled a group of interlocutors. One of them has already come up with the most original non-starter – suggesting the Indian constitution be changed to accommodate the Kashmiris’ sentiments. Now you don’t need a constitutional change to withdraw troops from Kashmir, or to free its political prisoners, or to hold serious talks with Pakistan, or to punish the rapists and torturers who are claiming to be the defenders of the Indian state, or to hold a referendum to ascertain the people’s will in Kashmir.

    You need an administrative order and a will to carry out the mandate of democracy.

    That’s all.

    The government sensed trouble when a group of representatives of seriously disaffected people came together on a platform at a recent seminar about Kashmir in Delhi called ‘Azadi—the only way’. The furore over sedition charges against Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani who also addressed the seminar was a complete red herring, a compulsory digression for the Indian state and its rightwing props because neither Roy nor Geelani said anything they hadn’t said for years. The furore was a deliberate decoy to head off the debate on ‘Hindu terror’ after Indresh Kumar, a senior member of the RSS, was named in a CBI charge-sheet for a bomb blast in the Ajmer Sharif dargah in which many were killed.

    However, in chasing a completely false lead about sedition and so forth, the state and the media may have missed out on the significance of an historic meeting of disparate ideological and political groups. Nagas, Manipuris, Sikh separatists, Maoists and human rights activists, among others, were discussing their separate injustices at the hands of the Indian state in the context of the brutalisation of Kashmir. Even as they had assembled at the Little Theatre Group under the ruse of speaking for Kashmir, India’s intelligence agencies could not have been entirely unaware of the momentous nature of the event. Ironically, the Maoists and the Kashmiri separatists who had come together for the first time on a platform in Delhi had once shared a common history.

    For example, the Maoists are but an evolved offshoot of the Telangana struggle against the Nizam of Hyderabad, in which communist cadres had participated in his armed overthrow. The Kashmiris are the inheritors of an anti-feudal struggle against Hari Singh, the former ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, that was led by Sheikh Abdullah.

    It was in 1941 that Abdullah’s Jammu and Kashmir National Conference joined All India States Peoples Conference, the arm of the Congress Party that was working for democracy in the princely states and was pitted against the Rajas who were technically outside the realm of British empire. When the Sheikh joined the Quit India movement in 1942, he was welcomed and applauded. But when he launched a Quit Kashmir campaign against Hari Singh in 1946, he was surprised by the aloofness from many in the Congress. It does not seem to bother our contemporary democrats that Kashmir’s Accession certificate was signed by a discredited monarch who did not have the trust of his people.

    Anyway, at the recent Azadi meeting one set of comrades whose history goes back to the Telengana peoples’ struggle against a feudal ruler came out in in support of another set of comrades whose independence had been subverted by the newly formed Indian state. In Hyderabad the Indian government had encouraged a people’s movement to overthrow the Nizam, in Kashmir it subverted the people to sign a controversial Instrument of Accession with its feudal ruler. Even Lord Mountabatten made mention of the need to get the people’s approval on Hari Singh’s transactions with New Delhi, but all that is now forgotten history.

    Let me end here, by quoting the views of two important speakers at the Azadi meeting, which were largely ignored by the media and the state in their hunt for Arundhati Roy. Varavara Rao, a self-confessed Maoist and poet, said in an interview after the event that the Maoists were firmly behind the Kashmiri people’s struggle for the right to self-determination and justice.

    A Naga separatist, who spoke at the meeting, also gave reasons about why his movement stood in solidarity with the Kashmiris.

    Varavara Rao to Tehelka magazine: “I feel Azadi is the only way for Kashmir. Self-determination is the right of every nationality. Being a Maoist, I support revolutionary and independent movements of people. On that Marxist-Leninist principle, I support the nationality struggle of Kashmir and of the Northeast. I come from the Hyderabad riyasat. Both Hyderabad and Kashmir were invaded by India. Even the Indian Union uses the word ‘accession’ in both cases. They annexed Hyderabad on the pretext that the rulers are Muslims and the ruled are Hindus. In Kashmir, they said the king is Hindu. In both places, they played the Hindu card.”

    The general secretary of the Naga People’s Movement for Human Rights, N. Venuh, is an advocate of independent Nagaland. In his speech during the convention on Kashmir, he espoused the cause of Azad Kashmir, drawing parallels between the two states.

    “We are not part of India, so we cannot be called secessionists. The government has to give us our rights. We can be friends with the Indian State, but cannot be part of the Indian Union.” On similarities between the Naga struggle and Kashmiris, he said: “Yes. History tells us that Kashmir is a disputed territory. This is why the UN office is still there in Srinagar.

    The Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. They should be allowed to decide whether they want to be with India or go their own way. This is true for Nagas. We never wanted to be a part of India.”

    As I said, the recent meeting on Kashmir was a landmark event. Call it secessionist or a call for sedition, or whatever. Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani were not the main story. This is what the Indian media and the Indian state would do well to understand and, if possible, accept.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    Ms Roy should not be arrested. No need. Just ignored.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Dear Ram Autar,
    I was eagerly awaiting your arrival on this forum. May you never leave.
    You will find a lot of kindred souls here who think the word brahmin is an abuse. So, welcome. You will feel right at home here.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Hi Ashish

    What is that Pakistani ISI/Govt website from where people liek Ravi and Ram pick up this RSS/Brahmin sh– . You did uncover taht they were copying verbatum from that site.. This si teh site that stays Pakistani culture/history go back 7000 years ago, unlike India, because India was not there 7000 years ago.. Islamabad.com????

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    What ever I put on here is published at the back of RSS propoganda, the very pamplets that you refer to.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Muslims of the undivided India became the worst victims of Brahminism because Islam posed an all-round threat to its exploitative tenets. To escape from the horrors of Brahminism, Muslims ultimately sought partition (1947).
    Bengal had the largest concentration of Muslims and that is how the Brahminical terrorist party took its birth in Bengal to prevent the large-scale conversion of Dalits into Islam. Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan of Aligarh was the first most famous Muslim to unite the community against Brahminism. Tilak, a Chitpavan Brahmin from Pune, became the father of the anti-Muslim war and violence by staging Ganapati festival. The first riot took place in Bombay in 1893.
    Dalits preferred Islam: A Bengali Brahmin, Bankim Chandra Chatterji, wrote the Anand Math, inciting “Hindus” to kill Muslims and also composed the notorious anti-Muslim song, Vande Mataram. When the persecuted Muslims, unable to bear Brahminical violence, appealed to the then British rulers they partitioned Bengal creating a Muslim-majority district (1905) against which the Brahminists launched a violent agitation. The Congress Party virtually became a Brahminist weapon. Tagore led the struggle against the partition of Bengal. The British were then forced to annul the partition.
    It is this unending Brahminical hatred of Muslims that forced them to seek a separate country.
    M.K. Gandhi, as Hindu leader, was the no.1 conspirator to drive Muslims out of India. Arya Samaj, became a violent movement to fight Muslims.
    The author says the principal grouse of the Brahminists was that the Untouchables of India preferred conversion to Islam by which they ceased to be Untouchable. It is the wholesale conversion of Dalits that upset the Brahminists because that decreased the “Hindu population”. To fight such conversions they started the RSS.
    All the top Brahmins like Tilak, Gokhale, Bankim Chandra Chatterji, M.M. Malaviya, Lala Lajpat Rai, Surendranath Banerji called upon the “Hindus” to arm themselves to fight and kill Muslims. This led to widespread anti-Muslim riots in many parts of India with hundreds killed. It was at this juncture the beleaguered Muslims launched the Muslim League headed by Jinnah to assert the rights of Muslims who then formed 1/5 of India. Arya Samaj was in the forefront of fomenting anti-Muslim riots. The Moplah rebellion of Kerala (1921) was a major event of all-India importance. Gandhi played an important role in provoking Hindus.
    Such an all-round prejudice and reckless physical violence naturally forced Muslims to seek a separate homeland (Pakistan) for Muslims. Allama Iqbal, the eminent poet, made this proposal in his 1930 presidential speech at the Allahabad Muslim League conference.
    Pendrel Moon, a noted British author of the book, Divide & Quit, said:
    “The Hindus say Muslims were brothers but would in fact treat them as less than step-brothers”.
    Abul Kalam Azad, a Brahminical stooge, was the only one who went with Gandhi.

    ——————————————————————————–

    [Reply]

  • shan

    the word bramhinism is an abuser of human dignity , the same thought process is responsible for the internal destruction of hindu society , the external destruction was brought about by central asian invaders. Here are examples of some inglorious deeds of bramhinical order.
    The priest class is ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THE EVILS THAT BEDEVILS INDIA. When Bakhtiar khilji entered NAWADWIP (WEST BENGAL), with only hundreed men in horses posing as horse traders, they found THE PALACE ABANADONED, WHY , because BALLAL SEN had been advised by his PUNDITS , that according to ASTROLOGY , he doesn’t stand a chance , so adviced him to withdraw his tail and flee.
    Another jem, When the eight year old daughter of a king in a principality of Bengal is WIDOWED ON THE WEDDING NIGHT , the king is on his knees pleading to the SCUMS (Bramhins) to revoke the religious stricture and allow her daughter to be remarried AS HER HYMEN IS INTACT!!!!!!!!!!!!
    however can we ignore haram autar , and focus on kashmir.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    My recycled idea from old posts:

    If we have to make Kashmir as our integral part, there are two ways.

    1. By using force : It depends on India’s “strength(/ruthlessness)” in rolling tanks over “civilians”. Saying, we will treat Kashmir like China, Israel and Russia (over Chechnya) is easy. But the parties here, which get so opportunistic to condemn a naxallite’s killing of civilian, will ever agree on such cold blooded things? Can our government get so bold, ever?

    2. Winning them with love : Past 60 years have shown our effort has been futile. It has only been one way. Kashmir gets the lion share in Indian government grants compared to others and then hate India. This tendency keeps continuing even after 100 years. The more our government has licked them, more they have kicked us.

    In other words, all the time Kashmir has been one high maintenance girl friend, who would never commit even if we buy her Taj Mahal. If we want, we can invest (waste) more time and money on her. If we are wiser, move on. We can give them highest grant for 5 more decade, can improve their infrastructure even better (already it is better than their counterparts in Pakistan). After that also, they will be the same. It will teach a lesson to discriminatory appeasing policy of Indian government; if
    you keep giving carrots to a community thinking you will win them, end of the day you will only loose carrots. Bring on uniform civil code.

    As far as the solution: It would need an inevitable surgery of Kashmir Valley from India (as Jammu and Ladakh seems to be happy with India according to a poll. Of course, opinion polls can’t be a plebiscite). But then, there are few technical problems which needs to be addressed, if Kashmir decides to become independent.

    1. Kashmiri Pandits:
    This is a mess created by Kashmiri Muslims and it is not Indian government’s responsibility to deal with the refugees they have created (when Kashmir is not India). We already have other refugees and other muslims (like from Bangladesh) to take care of. So solving this problem has to be a Kashmiri Muslim’s responsibility. As they have already decided that they don’t want to stay with these Hindus, let them vacate from one district of Kashmir Valley (may be Anantnag district, where Amar Nath yatra is held) and leave it under the control of Indian government for rehabilitation of these refugee Hindus. It is the Kashmiri Muslim who dreams of Independence and it is he who needs to sacrifice. Not a Kashmiri Hindu who never dreamed about independence. (It is not really a sacrifice, as they can occupy the vacated Hindu houses in the valley). I know this suggestion is almost like another partition. But seems like, it is inevitable, as first half of it has already been performed. (Another possibility of Kashmiri Hindus returning to valley looks like a day dream to any practical minded person. Even if they are focibly sent, they will come back as refugees again). India should agree for a plebiscite, only after the above condition is agreed by Kashmiri muslim leaders.

    Let Indian govt not take any responsibility in vacating these homes. Kashmiri leaders, who gave calls for youth to sacrifice their life, future etc let them ask these people to sacrifice their home. Let Indian army not participate in any of the things (it can avoid the blame, in case any deaths happen). Let the Kashmir be given independence only after these areas get emptied.

    2. Kashmiris who are staying(/working) in other parts of India (Remember these people (which includes Gilani’s son who is working in Delhi) have “never come” to oppose their leaders who are calling for Independent Kashmir) :
    They will be equivalent to any other europian or a mexican working in India. They can work if they can get a work visa. Or let them go back and serve their new motherland, as their service will be more required there. As for Indian requirement goes, yes we would miss their service and hope we can survive without their service. We certainly don’t need any politicians from that state (Abdullah duo), as we have enough skilled labor here. Also, we have seen their efficiency in managing our
    funds. In all other words: GOOD BYE.

    3. Kashmiris who own properties in other parts of India (which includes Shariyyat leaders as well):
    The same rule should be applied as in the case of a Pakistani national of Indian origin. They can’t own any properties in India. So these people can invest back in their homeland or government of India has the power to take over them. The other route, Indians owing properties in Kashmir: never existed.

    4. Future of Kashmir : Most probably China would take care of it (and we have to deal with one more Aksai Chin):
    My guess is, the entire land (which are strategically important for China for access to the Gulf) are slowly being swallowed by China. First, after withdrawal of India from IPI gas pipeline project, Iran willing China to participate in the project. Second, Pakistan handing over control of the Gilgit-Baltistan region in the Occupied Kashmir to China. Third, China grabbing construction work projects in Afghanistan from India, because of Pak’s fondness to China.
    Pak has invited one more monster near its door after Taliban. Getting encircled by China, just to give discomfort to India.

    What should India do in this case? “Stay far from it” .
    If Kashmiris choose independence in referendum, then they have decided their fate. We don’t have to rewrite it. We have loved them enough. We should only wish them “good luck”. As Shan suggested, some mine lined border so that “no refugees are entertained”. We just have to acknowledge, we never had the “efficiency to control” this ethnic group like China. If we had, we could have crushed these protesters in days.

    (So far, I have found no takers. Either patriotic people would say “Kashmir can’t be separated”. People who would advocate freedom to Kashmir would like it to give it “unconditionally” (Whoever wants to stay in India can stay, whoever want to go can go. People would not like one community to take full ownership of the land and other to take shared ownership “always”. Gandhi could convince Hindus for unconditional love 60 years ago. Today, there is no Gandhi.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Do you guys even realize that you are displaying the mentality of cold blooded murderers?

    This is how an Osama Bin Laden would be “rationally” “objectively” and “un-emotionally” deciding the various options in front of him— like whether one should be “bold enough” to slam two planes or one.

    Or as Dawood Ibrahim would have “rationally” discussed where to put bombs “boldly” in Bombay.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Bobby,
    I have not spoken about taking Kashmir by force. I have mentioned freedom to Kashmiris if they wish. I have just laid some conditions. Which condition is displaying the mentality of cold blooded murderer?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    #1 is the only choice. For that I know we do not have leaders with guts like a Sardar Patel/VP Menon. Tanks should roll. Strength should be displayed. Moral strength has to be complemented with military might. No more coddling.

    India will not suffer anything other than few days’ headlines.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Gopi,
    You only said the limitation of your choice.

    Here we have UPA (not Sardar Patel), supported by Mamata Banerjee who wouldn’t condemn Naxalite’s action. Then the media.

    What else you offer on plate?

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    According to a fable of Hindu religion Brahma acted as a priest to officiate the marriage of god Paramasiva with Parvathi. When Parvathi went round the sacred fire (omakundam) she held the end of the apron cloth with her left hand before going round. It enabled Brahma to have a clear look at the Parvathi’s thighs. On seeing the thighs, Brahma became a victim of lust. Brahma’s semen poured out. Brahma left the semen in a vessel near the sacred fire. Immediately Agasthiar was born.
    (2) When Parvathi came around the sacred fire again, Brahma once again relished her thighs and he once again became a victim to lust and semen poured out once again. This time he left the semen on the green plants, creepers and trees. This time a number of saints were born.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Ram

    So, what is your point? Is your point that Islam is superior to this thigh business ? Or that the worshippers of Shiva et al are inferior to the worshippers of something else?

    Compare what different groups of people (groups by religion in this case) – Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Westerners (Christians), people of Budhist/confucious roots (China/Japan)- are contributing to science, technology, welfare, peace, well-being, wealth, medicine, Social Sciences etc , and then pass a judgment.

    If thigh believers are contributing and doing good, I wouldnt mind believing in thighs.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    MANU-DHARMA, A CODE OF INJUSTICE TO NON-BRAHMINS
    Manu Dharma Sastra is the weapon of the “highest caste” Brahmins. It has two main motives. First of all this enables the Brahmins to call themselves most superior to other castes and lead a happy life without doing any manual work. It has made the sons of the soil (Dravidians) as slaves to them forever. The non-Brahmins are deprived of their self-respect and decency. The second motive is to render injustice to all Dravidians as stipulated in the Manu’ law. When such an order is set up permanently, the organisations such as the government, courts, constitutional acts etc. would naturally be dominated and monopolised by the Brahmin community. Such an arrangement would render all others as slaves for ever. This is the other motive of the Manu’s code.
    It was clearly ordained that Manu’s code or law should be strictly followed for a period of three thousand years.
    The sudra (Dravidians) kings and other rulers took pride in proclaiming that they ruled the people as laid down in the Manu law. Thus the Brahmins sought the necessary safeguards to maintain the evil of casteism attached to others by birth.
    British rule: After the advent of the British rule, which succeeded the Tamil kings, the Brahmins permitted only the Criminal Acts to be changed on the lines of Western countries. For all civil matters, Hindu law based on Manu’s code alone was brought into force.
    Can there be a law like Manu’s law that provides a very favourable position only to one particular community? How could it be tolerated with the authority of our own law of the land? How can we permit the courts and judges to base their judgement on Manu’s code?
    Is there a country where the people of the land are termed as the sons of prostitutes? Is there a place where the toiling masses of the land are degraded by others of alien countries? Can you find a government, legislations or courts remaining a silent spectator to the injustice meted out to the majority of the population? Can you see anywhere people being so docile and negligent as here without trying to erase the disgrace? Nowhere else you can find selfish vested interests as you see in Tamil Nadu.
    It is for the Tamil society to think loftily. Our freedom and rights lie in the eradication of disgrace attached to our births. So I humbly appeal to you all to think over these monstrocities. You will feel perturbed and agitated at the ill treatment given to us by the Manu’s code.
    Leave the aged and elderly people. The future is in the hands of the younger generation. I have compiled this book with the hope that our youngsters atleast would come forward to think on right lines and act with wisdom.
    The origin of Manu’s code: Brahma has been attributed as the author of Manusmriti. He made laws and gave them to Brigu, a first saint. Later the law was handed over to Maricha by Brigu. (Vol.1, sloka 58, Manu code).
    Later on Manusmriti (orthodox varnasrama dharma) was let known to all the saints

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    continued…….This time a number of saints (rishis) were born in no time. Of them Valkilliyathe was one

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Hi Gopi,
    The particular one I posted the link to was Islamabadglobe.com

    But, for sheer entertainment, nothing can beat Dalitnation.wordpress.com .. honestly.. You will learn that Ram, a brahmin killed Ravana who was a Dalit … ha, ha, ha, ha… my stomach aches..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    BTW, you can go to Dalitvoice.org as well.. it is not quite as amusing as the blogsite I referred earlier. But, it has lengthy treatise on Manusmriti and the usual stuff.. enjoy; there is a weekend coming up.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    We should be thankful to Pakistanis and extremist Muslims for reading and preserving the ancient book of Manusmriti!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ram was not brahmin.that is why he has no temple dedicated to him.he even does not come in the list of bhagwans.he was king only.who could not save his wife even.after sunset he will drown himself in wine and cunubines.as per ramayana he never built any hospital or road.

    Vinay Reply:

    whereas Prophet built universities and research centres, so long ago. All right?

    ram autar Reply:

    muslim world started universities 600 years before OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE.read muslim spain.there are 1000 inventions by muslims all over world.
    read speech of prince charles in which he has humbly asked the christian world ,to accept THE TRUTH ,THAT ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION IS BASE OF THEIR CIVILIZATION.

    shan Reply:

    @Ram autar ,the pest, simply f off , we are discussing some heavy stuff here , all your concerns , grouses have been deliberated , so dont go on like a crackling record with an mind numbing monotony.

    Vinay Reply:

    I think, only person who can counter this Ram autar’s nonsense is DUDE. Both these (put together) can win any talent competition with their jugalbandi performance.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ok stupid moron low iq pakistani useless garbage — what happened to all those great things… how many Muslims are winning prestigious awarsd be it in Science, Engg, or whatever (except our Indian Msulims who excel in music). Get educated, win some good prizes, and then talk… Unless you say that you are not getting any scientiifc prizes beacuse of Jewish conspiracy

    you third rate moron..get some sense

    Vinay Reply:

    One more place, from where Ram Avtar’s posts comes from, is IOS world. This name stands for Institute of Objective Studies. It has been established in the year 1986 with a view to promote empirical and conceptual research (!?). Research is carried out on ideologies and problems relevant to Indian polity, society, economy, religion and culture. Attention has been focused on the problems of Muslims and other minority groups. This prestigious research centre is located at Jamia Nagar, New Delhi ( http://www.aboutus.org/IOsWorld.org ). Interested people are requested to visit the research centre.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Ok fr…ng Muslims (as usual, not all Muslims)!

    UPS and Fedex planes were grounded here today because investigators found out that Pakistani and Yemeni muslims were planning a dry run for shipping bombs to Pakistani and Yemeni Muslims in USA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    The origin and birth of munivars and rishis who created Vedas and sastras
    The birth of these Rishis is against the laws of nature, absurd and vulgar. I give few examples:
    Rishis Born to
    1. Kalaikottur Rishi Deer
    2. Kousik Kusam
    3. Jambukar Jackal
    4. Gouthamar Bull
    5. Valmiki Hunter
    6. Agasthiar Vessel
    7. Vyasar Fisher woman

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vinay,
    thanks. Had no idea such “cutting edge” research goes on within 10 km of where I live.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ram Autar,
    why is Valmiki’s (universally revered by Hindus as a saint) birth in a hunter’s family or that of Maharshi Vyasa-likewise revered- (born to a fisherwoman) vulgar?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde why u forget dily drone attacks which has already killed thousands.99%of them innocent.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    No, i did not forget. It will continue as longs as you have terror universities awarding Masters and PhDs, you stupid, crazy Pakistani..

    Oh, by the way, drones do not kill as many innocents as your Sunni brothers are doing in Lahore and Karachi daily killing Shiites, Sufis, Ahamadiyas, and your own Sunni berelvis..
    Get a life Moron —

    Also, whatever you vomit –all those names of people who have come thru whatever sh—-, you are the only one who kn ows all these..We in india just move on to bigger and better things..

    You sh—head, get a life

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i am indian not pakistani.before american came to that area ,there was no suicide bombing .all were living peacefully.before britishers came we were brothrs.so u know where fault is.brhmnst and zoinist are in root of each and every voilence in this world.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Moron, you are a Pakistani…

    So why are Sunnis killing Shias, Ahmadiyas, Barevelis, Christians, hindus, Sufis etc because of Americans or British atrocuities- that is simply oxuymoron..Your target should eb somebody else

    What has jews done to Pakistan? Why are you blaming them?

    You Pakistanis will never learn–You morons have been taking that country down for teh lasty 60 years..Buiild your country you stupid, moron, 20 IQ dumbwit like your otehr countrymen ,rather than talking about sh– like Manusmrithi..

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    fr—king Pakistani/Yemeni Muslims try to smuggle bombs to US:

    Thanks to good intelligence sharing between US, UK, and others, a crisis seems to be averted here in US. The President said more info will eb forthcoming; but this looked definitely like an attemmpyt to distribute bombs to sleeper Muslim cells in the country.

    Fruc—g Muslims go to a free country, enjoy its benefits,and then fr— that place. ,

    Ashish Reply:

    Binoy,
    you are missing the point. Repeat, I totally believe Ram Autar’s assertion that he is an Indian. And, that is precisely the point.
    Like SIMI is 100% Indian.
    What worries me are the attempts to forge a grand alliance of Dalits, Muslims and Maoists. While no website of the Maoists exist, you are welcome to visit the CPIML website (not banned) and you will get the drift.
    The narrative is basically as follows-
    1. Centuries of oppression by caste Hindus- especially Brahmins; in the present age joined by Banias. (So, Gandhi is a bania, so is Ambani- such breathtaking sociological insights)
    2. Muslims converted to escape the tyrrany of the caste system (only cause- no other)- again, coercion including threat to life, inducements did not exist.
    3. Buddhists were fellow sufferers- so in the distant past, non-caste Hindus became Buddhists and in the recent past, the non-Caste Hindus became Muslims; lately Christians.
    4. The Indian state is a rule by the elite – plutocracy if you will- of the Brahmin-Bania combine aided by Jews and supported by the imperialist Americans.
    5. All Indian icons are what they are because of the brahmin-bania conspiracy. Whether it is Tendulkar or Narayanmurthy. The Muslim icons are sellouts or worse, not Muslim (enough).

    Most writing on these fora have so little education or coherence in them that it is pointless to refute them one by one. They forget Valmiki, Vyas were low caste but yet are revered. They forget that Ravana was a brahmin who was killed by Ram, who was a Kshatriya.
    Ram Autar says now : “since Ram was not a brahmin, no temple was ever built in his name”. Hello? Then what is this Brahman Jati Party led by the “Sindhi Khatri” Advani doing fighting for a Ram temple?

    Dalits have been discriminated against for ages; that is a fact. However, now we have constitutional safeguards and programs for empowerment. So many CMs today are from backward castes. The urbanization and consumerism will break down the remaining barriers soon. The last 5 marriages in my family have all been inter-caste/ religion/ region and even international. We have now sons-inlaws who are Marwari, Bengali-swarna-banik, Bengali-Teli and daughters in law who are Punjabi, Iranian-Muslim, French-Catholic. Only cultural assimilation our mothers try is to teach “some Bengali” to their sons/ daughters in laws. But, religion? Caste? Phoo..

    Instead of assimilation and working to ensure people cohabit peacefully, these websites only focus on Manusmriti and meaningless anti-Hindu/ anti-brahmin ****. Sad.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, before you write the elegy of casteism in India , YOU NEED TO COME DOWN FROM YOUR IVORY TOWER, and perhaps visit the regional newspaper websites, rather than making the mission of your life to trash dalit websites. One such site I can recommend is Calcuttaweb.com. There was a news about a durga puja in 2010(yes you have read it correct)
    in somewhere in murshidabad, the MUCHIS(cobblers for others) were not allowed to enter the pandal to offer Anjali.Delhi is not india , nor india is delhi.this is not an isolated instance , in another occasion BRAMHIN students in village primary refused to eat together with dalit students the free midday meal. This is in mother of all secularist , the communist west bengal.Perhaps you are now so bedazzled and enamoured by the razzle dazzle of delhi that you treat your ?place of birth with condescension , else if you cast your eye on the sunday edition of Ananda bazar patrika(does the name ring a bell) matrimonial column , your family may be justifiably proud , yet hope you will eat the humble pie.

    Ashish Reply:

    @shan
    I do not get the point; why should my family be proud? People meet, fall in love, marry.. there is nothing to be proud of in all this.
    I quoted a personal example to show that rapid urbanization (and the resultant mobility) is doing a lot to break down social barriers.
    Villagers in Murshidabad doubtless have a different view on life. But, if not in this generation, in the next, they will change. Social change does happen slowly.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, again living in delhi I am amzed how scores of HONOUR KILLING escaped your attention. These are not villages, nitish katara is metrosexual. Have you watched the film by a fellow expatriate bengali LOVE SEX AUR DHOKA , the first part.

  • shan

    @Vinay, gopi, binoy and[ bobby (well I can only try, but if somebody is pretending to be asleep, very difficult to wake)]
    Guys I know of one solution , beleive me kashmir will stick to india like a suicide bomber sticks to his vest.
    If all of india converted to sunni muslim .
    On more serious note, PLEASE CAN SOMEBODY TELL ME WHY CRPF /ARMY HAS GONE TO KASHMIR. Is it the attraction of dal lake, or buy cricket bat made from kashmiri willow, or to taste the apples.Do these people have wife children , would he be rather with his family , than taking abuses and SEVERE injuries from stone pelting.apparently EIGHT HUNDREED are lying in hospital.
    Gleamed from an article I understand when Farook abdullah came to power , the opening shot fired by the militants causing the first casualty , the victim being a block head of NCP.Now if there is a daily ORGY of FIDAYEEN attacks claiming the life of mirwaiz farook’s father and the life of sajjad lone’sfather. Incidentally Lone Snr usedto be a CONGRESSI before switching over when he was denied share of the pie.now with constant fidayeen attacks , kidnapping and BEHEADING OF NORWEGIAN TOURIST which effectively hammered the last nail in the coffin of foreign tourist industry. Next was “indian” tourist getting murdered in bus, and then there is the sikh massacre.
    So What does Miss Roy and her chela bobby suggest. Leave kashmir in the hands OF FIDAYEEN .
    Apparently the scums (azadi jihadi complex) told the pandits MEN FOLKS LEAVE , YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR WOMEN FOLKS BEHIND.Now the solution , how about procastination, geelani isn’t going to last long (I can prognosticate given my background), with kidney transplant carried out in this brutal india also a pacemaker fitted. I give him at best five years. In these five years lot of things going to happen. Just one more suicide attack on american soil or indian soil is guaranteed to trigger full scale invasion by india or US. Unless pakis produce results , i dont think they atre going to get any more aid, OR HOW ABOUT ANOTHER COUP IN PAKISTAN, or how about mirwaiz suffering the same fate as his father. I will respond after your responses.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan brhmnsm cannot survive without war and voilence.700000 army is using rape as an instrument of suppression.100000 people have been murdered.kashmiri brhmns were removed by jagmohan,a hindu nazi ,to communalize the problem.give me name of one pundit killed for his religious allegance.indian goverment wants voilence not solution ,anarchy makes them rich.indians they hate.

    Apparently the scums (azadi jihadi complex) told the pandits MEN FOLKS LEAVE , YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR WOMEN FOLKS BEHIND

    shan ur above claim is absolutely rubbish.it is brhmnst who rape the women.christians of orrisa
    muslims of kashmir gujrat and victims of 600plus anti-muslim roit has experiece of this.

    NORWEGIAN TOURIST … LIKE DAVID HEADLY HE WAS SPY NOT TOURIST.why u ignore killing of 2.2 million iraqi children through embargo.and 1 million iraqis after.
    economies of afghanistan and pakistan were destroyed ,due to geo-political ambitions of world power.what is happening is due to unemployment.

    TELL TO INDIANS ALSO, RAJA AND RSS BRHMNST MASCARED 250000 INHABITANTS OF JAMMU ON 6TH NOV.1947.

    BRHMNSM AND ZOINISM ARE SATANIC COUSINS,RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THE EVILS.
    20 million hindus(victims of brhmnsm pushed to grinding poverty) are working in mzlm in muslim countries peacefully pray to stay there till death.also feeding half india.
    write someyhing truth.DONT USE BLOG TO INCITE OTHERS.
    LIE HATRED WAR AND VOILENCE IS UR STAPLE FOOD.

    coup is possibility,as presidents are decided by americans.they want most corrupt people of society as their ally and servant.BUT INDIA IS NO BETTER,WE ARE FORCED TO DIVERT MOST OF OUR DEVELOPMENT BUDGET TO BUY ARM.zoinists produce them indians jews(brhmnst)market them for hefty commission.common man commit suicide.tommorow they will become suicide bombers.the day enemy is identified.now vedic wolves are hiding among indian sheeps and swallowing us slowly.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I do not understand Gilani wanting freedom from India , to join the free country of Pakistan. If it is not Muslim bhai-bhai Umma at any cost…what else..

    I am for keeping it whatever cost may be. But agree with vinay that if a carve out happens, any Kashmiri Muslim anywhere else in India should be shipped, border has to eb constructed, etc etc.

    Two important Muslim terrorist activities happened here in the last few days. A Pakistani Muslim engineer was sentenced for planning bombing at the Washington DC metro station. Intelligence agencies were able to prevent the shipment of small bombs through UPS planes by yemeni and Pakistani Muslimss

    [Reply]

    tajender Reply:

    US experts to train upper caste youths on how to loot India
    OUR CORRESPONDENT
    Bangalore: “Hindu India” is guided and shaped by Brahminical thoughts, its reigning philosophy. M.K. Gandhi, the Gujarati Bania, hailed as the “Father of the nation” (not our nation) by the ruling upper castes (15%), finally died for Brahminism.
    Such a “holy” country packed with “great brains”, “world famous intellectuals” now finally admits that its education system, manufactured by the same brain, has utterly failed.
    The Hindu, India’s chief Brahminical daily (June 13, 2010) says top industrial bosses of India have asked the govt. to allow US universities to enter India. Why allow outsiders when our own “Brahmin brains” are the best in the world and have 150% monopoly on Indian education system from top to bottom?
    No quality education in India: The Hindu report reveals that the Brahminical big brains have themselves admitted that they can’t offer “quality education”. That means India’s education system has been a thorough failure. Our “Khatri Sick” PM is a great admirer of the Brahminical big brains. And he will be too glad to open the gate to US educational institutions headed by top Jews, all brothers of “Jews of India”.
    So apart from the financial sector, India will soon have collaboration with the Jews in the educational field also. That means India’ dying 400-odd universities will finally die. One by one the Brahminical rulers of India are handing over the country to Jews.
    Not even a shaving blade made in India: The boasting rulers shout about “India shining”, jumping, world class standards but these fellows could not manufacture even the humble razor blade for shaving. We asked many top Brahminical bosses of industry to name the blade they use. They said Gillette which is a Western product.
    Nothing is made in India except the humble but reliable bullock cart. Everything “foreign” is liked by our rulers — including the Scotch Whisky.
    The secret behind allowing US educational institutions to enter India implies that the entire 85% of the Bahujan children will be neglected and the money diverted to equip the youth of he upper castes to exploit the rest

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde life of people of bangladesh has totally changed after seprating from india.they were colony of west bengal.now life is much much better.12billion remittance have changed their life.kashmir is jail like gaza inpendence from india will bring them at par with pok.they can have some federation with india.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ram Autar , you f u ck ed up as sh ole , why dont you you emigrate to bangladesh we bloggers will pay for your passage.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan this is not reply this is abuse.neverthles what i write is correct.last 20 years scenerio there has totally changed.they have produced noble prize holder.which even india could not produced after partition.

    i have good experience of high caste bengalees are the most rascist in indian subcontinent.even hegde learn the lessons of fascism from bangla babus.

    DUDE Reply:

    oNE DAY WHEN I TAKE OVER I WILL RE UNITE INDIA WITH BANGERSTAN AND PARKISTAN AND I WILL LITTERALLY DESTROY ISLAM FROM WITHIN!

    I WILL ERRADICATE IT FROM THE INDIAN SUB CONTINENT YOU STUPID UNGRATEFUL ISLAM BROWN TRAITORS! YOUR ANCESTORS WERE DEFFO WEAK INDIANS!!!!!!!!!!! CONVERTED BY THE SWORD AND FOLLWING ARABIAN MYTHS! OF WHICH THE ARABS HATE YOU BROWN MUSLIMS!

    BANGERSTAN WILL PERISH WITH MUSLIMS! RIGHTFUL LAND BELONGS TO ME!

    DESTROY ISLAM

    ram autar Reply:

    Guys I know of one solution , beleive me kashmir will stick to india like a suicide bomber sticks to his vest.
    If all of india converted to sunni muslim.

    shan good english does not mean u have sound mind as well.pakistan was divided though both side ,people were of same faith.it is interest which divide and unite not religion.u people polish the shoes of white skin because of that.though in dubai u get more than in london.i am ur fan shan.u are the only one whom i admire most in film industry.but u are brainwashed by hindu zoinist.i dont blame u.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    i PITY YOU FOOL!

    ISLAM IS RUBBISH LIKE YOUR DUMB WEAK ANCESTORS WHO WERE CONVERTED BY 786 ARAB CHOPCOKS!

    RE OCNVERT TO YOUR ANCESTRAL RELIGION AND BECOME FREE OF HATE, WHICH IS WHAT ISLAM TEACHES YOUR KIND! HATE!

    ISLAM = NOT PEACE!

    KASHMIR IS IAND OF ALL INDIANS! PAKISTAN IS INDIA!!!!!!!!!! BANGERSTAN IS INDIA!!!!!!!!!! AFGHANSTAN IS INDIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WAKE UP FOOL!!!!!!!!! ONE DAY I WILL RECLAIM IT ALL ! ALL YOU MUSLIMS WILL PERISH!

    BLOODY MOHAMMED THE PEADO! YOU WORSHIP A PEADO!

    DO SOME REAL FACTUAL HISTORY RESEARCH! NOT THAT MADE UP BULL THAT YOU LEARN IN PAKISTAN DAY CAMP!

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    interesting article:

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267719

    Something to ponder about (from the above article):

    “What is it about the culture of Indian politics today that it allows us to opt for a version of nationalism that is so brutal, self-certain and chauvinist? Have we been so brutalised ourselves that we have become totally numb to the suffering around us? What is this concept of Indian unity that forces us to support police atrocities and torture? How can a democratic government, knowing fully what its police, paramilitary and army is capable of doing, resist signing the international covenant on torture? How can we, sixty years after independence, countenance encounter deaths? Could these practices have survived so long and become institutionalised if we had a large enough section of India’s much-vaunted middle class fully sensitive to the demands of democracy?”

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby Oh hell , I may not be accurate , but once i posted in one of these websites , the MEDIAN income of indians is ?70000Rs that is nearly one thousand pounds, the median income in UK is 20000pounds , yes pounds not rupees , and if you take households because most not all wives work (women make 45% of workforce) the median income is 35000 pounds. You cannot compare hindustan ambassador with mercedes.Those grand eloquent words and aspirations is for people who can afford it . PLEASE PLEASE KEEP IN MIND INDIA IS A VERY POOR COUNTRY , AND VERY VERY UNEQUAL COUNTRY.tHE POLICE FORCE CAN USE ALL THE MODERN TECHNOLOGY AT ITS DISPOSAL in G7 countries , india simply cannot follow those guidelines. Far more pressing isFORTY PERCENT people in Marxist west bengal do not have food all through the year THEY GO HUNGRY , hunger is widespread , every research has shown this. So those firingee inspired dreams for another day.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    yes thats why India of all countries should mind its own business and not use its money to torture others….

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    I agree with the overall drift of the Outlook article. Clearly there is a lot for us to improve as a country and as people.
    The only thing is we are a nascent state; and the Indian state apparatus including its admin machinery (and the laws)are still largely inherited from our erstwhile colonial masters.
    This is not a simple problem; it will not even get solved in one day or perhaps even in my lifetime.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ashish, I agree about your statement that the adm machinery and laws are inherited from colonial masters (and mostly in tact without much change, but more of the same!). I will write my comments later on Bobbys lamenting about Indian democracy based on the article in the leftist publication.

    In my opinion (which nobody cares, and I do not vote) , more than politicians and political leaders, it is the administreative system and bureaucracy that arre at the roots of many issues, and that prevents us from growing at 12-15% per year. The “permission for this and that” have created huge corrupt system. The laws are archaic, there was a report recently that the chief post master of Mumnbai had amassed crores in bribes, because some obscure provision requires new buildings to go through the chief post master approval.

    IAS mafia rules the country. Politicians come and go, these scoundrels remain and manipuilate the stupid, sometimes uneducated, ministers. No IAS person can be punished, even minister cannot sack him, he is tried by his peers. With all the corruption, one would think scores of IAS personnel would have been fired, sent to jail etc. I would guess it is les than 20. At least IPS etc sometimes get stoned or killed in attacks and riots. IAS just steal s and steals. They are first for new districts and states, because it creates more opportunities to steal.

    The US system, with its local authority and local controls, leave very litttle to countrywide and statewide bureaucrats. They do not have an IAS type system; neither an IPS, police is under city mayors.

    They do have one of the best systems to go after corrupt politician or government servant. The country is divided into many “districts” with an independent district attorney appointed by the federal government. This attorney theoretically has unlimited budget and can go after situations fitting the criteria laid out in the constitution. The prosecution of Scooter Libby (Vice President Cheney’s number two man), the prosecution of Illinois Governor (like CM in India) Blogovich , Prosecution of his predecessor Gov Ryan and many other arrests and prosecution of very powerful political leaders (mayors, governors, Vice President Spirrow Agnew etc) and bureaucrats (police chiefs, departet secretaries etc) were accomplished through this system.

    Along with these districts, there are federal courts separate from state courts. (In India we have state courts and then federal Supreme court. In US they have state courts that can end up in Supreme court or federal courts that can end up in supreme court). The district attorney can bring a case based on credible evidence and try in federal court. For example, the mining Reddys/Karnataka ministers’ connection, adarsh society stealing, the spectrum licensing issue, land mafia cases, voter intimidation, or for that matter Gujrat progrom , etc would have been handled by these district attorneys.

    India will be much better off with a “district attorney” system.

    BTW, the new district attorney for Mnhattan is Preetam Batra, an american born to Indian parents. He is going after the financial shanigans and making an impressive name.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, I somehow can relate to your views very closely, perhaps because I live in the mother country of the country you talk about. One thing that underlines all that you have written PROTESTANT ETHICS. I once had a patient who was a retired Income Tax (in UK it is known as Inland Revenue)official. I asked him about corruption amongst tax officials. he said there may stray one or two cases OTHERWISE IT IS UNTHINKABLE, unlike in Italy where they take bribe openly. Perhaps his english gentlemanness prevented him mentioning India.
    Why people are corrupt ?. My answer is there are few reasons . 1. They dont think corruption is a bad thing(ie,: no such feeling that my country will suffer , in fact no feeling for country)
    2. Plain greed , lots of money car , house son’s education , daughter’s marriageetc
    3. MOST IMPORTANT , they have this “perception” which may be reality , chances of getting caught is very low, and VERY LITTLE SOCIAL STIGMA , so long you have your mercedes parked in the portico.
    Next is IAS. Incredibly simple to explain , it used to be ICS which was such an apple , Maggie Thatcher longed to become one , though her prudent unschooled father was wise enough to tell her by the time she will be ready for it , there wont be an ICS.
    So all that we are seeing was designed to KEEP WHITE BOYS BEYOND REPROACH , as with some transfer of power , there were indian mayors and councillers. I recently read Subhas Bose while he was a Mayor of Calcutta gave a hard time to english bureaucrats.
    THE WHITE SAHIBS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH BROWN SAHIBS.
    As you know despite all the bragging INDIA DOESNT HAVE INTELLECTUALS , BARRING ONE GOD , DR SUBRAMANIUM, but his discipline is strategic studies , not economics or local government.
    INDIA NEEDS A BONFIRE OF ALL THAT WAS COLONIAL AND START ALL OVER AGAIN WITH A FRESH LOOK AT THE NEEDS OF THE TIME .
    Your suggestions are really worth heeding , I have plenty to make , though you will find there is always a spoiler , And I definitely know of one swarming this bolg.

    Vinay Reply:

    I feel one more reason for our corruption/greediness is the family bonding/attachment here. Bill Gates pledges his fortune for charity instead of leaving it for his children. Barron Hilton decides to donate 97 percent of his fortune to charity (dramatically diminishing Paris Hilton’s potential inheritance). Forget our politicians, bureaucrats. How many of us can think of it in this way? (We don’t even dream of 50% inheritance tax in India). It is this recycle of money which goes to society, in western world. Here, even an 80 old year politician keeps taking crores of bribes, for the better life of his great grand children.

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, this charity , may have many reasons , but according to Max Weber this is another PROTESTANT VIRTUE. This is what he refers to as “the calling”. By which he means protestants think they are kind of preordained to do good for the people.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    @Vinay

    Agree. But that is an attitudinal change, not a systemic change. May be attitudinal changes will result from systemic changes. In US, it will bbe very rare that somebody of the stature of mukesh ambani will build a monstrosity like he has done in a place like Mumbai (they may do it in some exclusive billionaire places, but among folks they live like folks)

    But I believe politicians coruption is essentially nothing compared to what bureaucrats are doing in India. In many cases, I believe it is the bureaucrat advsiing the politician how much money can be had and they even split. Electricity minister and Elec board chairmen, PWD chief engineer and PWD minister, etc etc .

    The great daughter of the great father, Indira Gandhi, started the present day corruption we see in the political circles. She knew the power of money. The rumor was that she was looking for a key (of Sanjay Gandhi) at teh site of his plane crash. Rumors of state bank scandal, killing of Mishra and 8 others connected with that trail etc etc//Google and u shall find.

    Indira Gandhii also destroyed Indian economy. She created two generation of poor people. India would take 30 years to get to the economic level taht was there when indira took office.

    And isnt it amazing, the family is revered and continue to run the country. How is this possible? May be along with changes we are discussing, a direct election a ka US sytem as opposed to party selecting nominees may change this family hold- be it Gandhi, or Karunanidhi, or Chavan, or Pawar, or Gowda

    Bobby Reply:

    “a direct election a ka US sytem..”

    Wrong example….. Bush family, Kennedy Family, Clintons

    A country as diverse as India can only have a parliamentary multi-party democracy…

    Vinay Reply:

    @Shan,
    Every religion preaches charity Shan. We also have Karna, Shibi etc in Hinduism. So is Buddhism. Jainism was ultimate. Their last Teerthankar, Mahaveer left everything including his cloth, as he got sick of greediness in the world, which makes two brothers fight for power (he fought with his brother). What about his worshippers, I mean Marwaris?

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    No. it is a false notion that “families” or establishment has a hand. Party does not nominate anybody until they go through the primary process. For all what people thoufght as “Clinton” power, Mrs Clinton did not win the primaries. So with Edward kennedy when he contested for presidency. Son Bush went through the primary process and won.

    Party in itself does not have a clout like India has. The problem with US electoral system is that it is very difficult for athird party to come into national stature because of the “electoral” vote rules (the majority vote getter in a state get all “electoral” votes from that state). In a sense it creates stability.

    Multiparty system is OK, but let the party does not select its nominees, let people compete under the party and one person gets selected as that party candidate. .It will be costly, but again it can be systemetized, organizing on a single day for all positiosn (like panchayath, muniicpality, state, central etc0 As long as party selects nominees, the hold of individual leaders and “establishment families” caste and creed all come in play.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Binoy,
    When you speak of corruption and Indira Gandhi; corruption would not arise if there is no greed for the family. If Gandhi were to go by wishes of the majority of Congressmen, he should have made Sardar Patel as president of Congress. It was the eagerness of a dying man (Motilal Nehru), to see his son being Congress President in his own lifetime which pressurized Gandhi to overrule wishes of the majority. How much is known about Churchill’s children? Compare it to Nehru’s. Ours is not “flying the nest” culture, it is the “banyan tree rooting” culture. I feel, corruption is more in latter countries. It is under control (or may be not exhibited) in rigid countries but is glaringly visible in open countries like India, Pakistan (any Asian country).

    About Mukhesh Ambani, I feel he and his wife are a bit of screwed up characters. When Dheerubhai Ambani was alive, both he and his wife had a low key life, where as his brother flaunted flamboyant lifestyle, associating himself with politicians, marrying a film star. Mukesh seems to have bought the property in 2002, which coincides with year of his father’s death. Nita Ambani has tried very hard to change her appear ace, lifestyle, social dos everything. Now Antilla. They are acting as if, a beggar suddenly witnessed a wealth. (Again he got it, because of his father).

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, what mukesh and anil ambani has inherited is probably not possible in America. I understand america is a merit based society , that is why inheritance tax is prohibitory. Also the personal liability is astronomical so there is no personal ownership , thus has to be joint stock/corporation. Also it is cultural in both the brother’s case to paraphrase from a dialogue of woody allen movie “an act of flawless vulgarity”. Remember warren buffet said about his children “they have had a good head start in life ” and thus donated TWENTY BILLION in philanthropy. Also I am I wrong in thinking they are all ANGLO SAXON PROTESTANT. Dont see much jewish philanthropy for blacks in africa.

  • shan

    As for the level of sophistican in indian police please refer to HEMANT KARKARE and the manner in which he died. In Uk there is special arms unit , also the GRASS IN ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE. Despite astronomical difference in pay there have been COUNTLESS instance of police brutality , the most recent one being in G8 meeting where an innocent bystander (white) was pushed to the ground and hit with baton , he died , all sorts of enquiries leads to what every body expected , the policeman is exonorated. On top of this The police is Institutionally racist , conclusively proven by independent enquiry. and we are talking about UK , supposed to be role model for the rest of the world. The less we talk about US and FRENCH police better. And portugese , and greek police is sheer corrupt.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    This is in response to ashish nandi’s article , yes I fully agree ALL KINDS OF CENSORSHIP SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN BARING CHILD PORN . But Prof nandi can enlighten himself from the fact THERE IS MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CENSORSHIP INTRODUCED AFTER 9/11 IN WHITE WORLD . Any body visiting Jehadi website will be banged up , anybody sympathising with violent (they are all) jihadi cause will also will be banged up. Infact now if you apply for british permanent stay(green card) or citizenship you have to GIVE SEVEN OR EIGHT WRITTEN UNDERTAKING THAT YOU HAVE NO SYMPATHY WHATSOEVER WITH ANY TERRORIST(READ ISLAMICIST) IDEOLOGY.
    Crticism is wellcome SELF LOATHING NOT.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan red indians did not killed anybody.we are target as we are sitting oil and minerals.war on terrorism is war on islam.battle which they cannot win.
    villain is beaten at end.they have bited dust in iraq and shit in afghanistan.indians should made
    our historical natural alliance.that is india,pakistan and iran.
    this also create 2 crores jobs fo rindians.bring properity and stability.we cannot change the neighbour.they will leave us and area both if things start becoming worse,like vietnam.
    china wants to make pakistan,ISRAEL OF THIS AREA.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    The comments I submit sometimes just disappears. I get confused whether to resubmit or not (as sometimes, both will re appear). Is it happening to anyone else?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    yes it happens frequently….. some problem with site….

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    In a true democracy, people should be allowed to express their points of view without fear of being put in jail.

    People who are demanding Azadi, or people who are talking in favor of the tribals, against the Indian state, or pro NE independence etc, should be openly allowed to give seminars and I would think that Universities and other intellectual forums, should openly have such people in their talking list.

    One can not rely on Government or corporate propaganda alone. One must know the other side. Then the people of India, can hear and come to a conclusion whether they think its a just cause. And if they it is, then they can pressurise the Government to accept the ones they think is just.

    With knowing both sides, one will never be able to make an informed opinion, and will only shout the same lines that the Government wants us to believe.

    What is happening is that no one is allowed to say anythng, except the official Government line– “Kashmir is an integral part of India”, Or “Naxals are bad”, “Indian Government has the good of the people at heart”…. How and why should we accept that???

    Chidambaram, even went to the extent of saying that Intellectuals should not say anything but the official line on the Naxals!!

    I mean this is what would happen in China or North Korea. Why should Indians tolerate this kind of behaviour by the politicians?

    We should demand our right to be informed, freely and without prejudice, by allowing us the right to hear all sides…. This is what makes a democracy one in the true sense….

    This will also by the automatically reduce violence and terrorism , by the way, because it would increase the space for non violent ways to getting justice….

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    In a true democracy ..TO BEGIN WITH ,.. PEOPLE SHOULD BE GUARANTEED JUST TWO SQUARE MEAL A DAY . Also again people have such selective memory , how about anil agarwal’s vedanta project in orissa RULED IN FAVOUR OF TRIBALS by the brutal , authoritarian , oppressive RSS inspired Govt of India.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @shan,
    can you explain your last sentence?
    “Also again people have such selective memory , how about anil agarwal’s vedanta project in orissa RULED IN FAVOUR OF TRIBALS by the brutal , authoritarian , oppressive RSS inspired Govt of India.”
    Who ruled what in favour of whom?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, Blimey , now this is a surprise coming Dr Samuel Johnson(who compiled the first english dictionary) , and a firebrand libertarian rolled into one. Well Anil agarwal of sterlite industries(he hails from ranchi and has secondary education only) , may have made his fortune in scrap dealing in calcutta and then expanded into mining , which he owns few of them like the copper mine in zambia. He is now moved to london has a holding company called Vedanta.He was planning to flatten Niyamgiri Hills in orissa to mine BAUXITE (for aluminium),. This hill is sacred to Doangra giri tribes. Govt of India has turned down agarwal’s proposal despite frantic lobbying by that twerp pattanayak, ruling in favour of tribals for their right to their way of life. The link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/India-rejects-Vedantas-Orissa-mine-plan.html

    Ashish Reply:

    Okay, Shan, we all know about Vedanta and Niyamgiri- there are lengthy posts by me on Gautam’s blog.
    My question was, specifically – can you explain what you mean by “RSS inspired Government of India”

    ram autar Reply:

    China yes, Vietnam
    mr ravi indonesia is no.2 economy in asia now.war ravaged vietnam is growing very fast.see reports.

    our cycle track built for cwg is broken .

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    your jehado country cannot do anything without begging to US and IMF. At least we had 70,000 or whatever to build broken stuff.. At the end of the day they organized a spectacular show. While your boys wre jehading in Lahore and Karachi and wherever.

    Have you thought why even your sportsmen are lagging behind? At least, at one time you had a decent size of sportsmen. 5 medals in lousy commonwealth games? It should be a concern — that your young ones may be getting into too much religion, purity, 72 virgins, that they do not care about sports.

    ram autar Reply:

    72 virgins are choice of jehadi .unfortunately these days they are choosing brhmns.especially
    who are made sat1 by u people.

    ram autar Reply:

    When 2 top Brahmins spoke the truth

    Bangalore: “We are producing sub-standard doctors, engineers, lawyers and other professionals. There is not a single educational institution in India that is par-excellence. The chairman of Medical Council of India (MCI) is in jail. I got to know the condition of some medical colleges. The lesser that is said, the better”, said Karnataka Governor H.R. Bharadwaj. (Times of India, June 26, 2010).
    Brahmin speaks Truth
    The education sector lays the foundation for a society’s forward march.
    Governor H.R. Bharadwaj is a former Union Law Minister and top Brahmin of the country. A great quality of the Brahmin is they never criticise themselves, particularly the education system which is their 100% monopoly.
    But Bharadwaj says India’s entire education system has collapsed. There is no village in India with a functioning primary school. The ruling class (read Brahminists) want to keep the Bahujans (SC/ST/BCs and Muslims etc.) totally illiterate. Bharadwaj knows all this but in a state of excitement at a Bangalore function truth burst out of his mouth unconsciously.
    Iyer reveals where money is going
    There is yet another Brahmin (a Tamil Nadu Iyer), an ex-Union Minister who was a former diplomat who also spoke the truth which will not be liked by his jatwalas:
    Bangalore: The UN human development index for India was 134 in 1984 and it remained at 134 even in 2007, despite so much of being spent on development, said Mani Shankar Iyer, former Union minister for Panchayat Raj.
    The centre spent a nominal Rs. 7,500 crore on the social sector and the poor in 1984, but by 2007, it went up to Rs. 1,20,000 crore though the human development index remained the same.
    We are now among the top four nations having dollar-billionaires and dollar-millionaires now.
    But there are nearly 836 million people who are earning Rs. 20 per day, which is lower than the NREGA pay scale. There has been a regression in terms of panchayat raj which was supposed to take us to development.
    Quoting late PM Rajiv Gandhi who once said that “out of Re.1, only 15 paise reaches the poor and the rest is lost in corruption”, Aiyar said: “It has actually been misinterpreted. What he actually said was that 85 paise goes to administration costs”.
    PLEASURE HUNTING

    A rough estimate shows that Rs. 30,000 crore is being spent for the Commonwealth Games, for sheer entertainment of the middle class (read upper castes — Editor). However, there is a furore when there is a Rs. 70,000 waiver for farmers and the poor, he said.
    Now with nearly 47% of the children suffering from malnutrition and 9 in 10 mothers being anaemic, the chances of children becoming athletes are very slim”, he said. (TOI June 29, 2010).
    Both are TOI reports by the country’s topmost Brahminical daily and reports quoted above are speeches made by two Brahmin leaders of India. The impression given to public is that Brahmin alone speaks truth and nothing but truth.
    But the above two truths will not shock the Brahmins because they have already become the unquestioned leaders with one leg in America supported by their Jewish cousins.
    .

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Is this your belief that any one, who criticises HINDUISM, must be a Muslim Pakistani.

    If that is the case then only Lord can save you.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram has used “we muslims” in his context many a time.. So, we know, he is not Ram. He, like you, is taking articles verbatum from the Islamabad Blog Ashish referred to.

    ram autar Reply:

    i used this word in certain context.i am muslim i am hindu iam hindu what difference does it make as far as we are good human being.we should not be parrotinstead we shld our mind.

    ram autar Reply:

    i think u talk of pakistan and afghanistan.britain became properous after looting muslim india
    with the help of brhmns.paris had mud houses when ahmadabad had population of 1 million.
    during clinton time america came out of reccesion after looting arabs in gulf war.

    being coward u support looters blindly.why.muslims are owning most of the natural wealth of world.
    2 crores jobs can be easily created if we join hands with muslim countries.

    arabs are know for hospitality generosity and bravery.even saddam showed all these qualities while dealing with us and americans.we are expertin in trivi,binge drinking and boasting.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish , for your query scroll downwards.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, this is the answer why India should not sign all those firingee inspired treaties . This is a real life , real time reporting. Woke up in the morning , found some thug had pulled off the window wiper from my car. Phoned police , no didn’t need to take the trouble of going in person. The lady on the phone took down all the details , provided me with a reference no and a contact tele no and said somebody will be in touch in next 24 hrs. The biggest thing is the crook is caught in my personal CCTV and it is recorded in the hard disc with time and date in real time. All I need to do is give a hard copy to police. On top of this there are innumerable CCTV lining the streets (it is a big brother country)
    and DNA sampling and DNA database spanning entire UK. Hope you will not talk those “fashionable” firingee inspired topics and focus on hunger alleviation , universal education , how to quadruple food production, how to provide means tested free universal affordable acceptable standard health care,OH YES GARBAGE DISPOSAL , WELL DRAINED ROADS , AND BACTERIA AND ARSENIC FREE WATER.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, perhaps you are upset with your daughter,s math result , Your question was “who ruled what in favour of whom. which i have posted. As your next question you have to take the trouble to scroll downwards and will get the answer. As for your daughter’s maths I understand KUMON (japanese system) maths is quite popular in UK , perhaps you can enquire if it has been introduced in India.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan
    I am very familiar with Kumon/ Kumaon maths- I am totally against it- it emphasises rote learning.
    And, she can’t do much about her genes- her dad used to be borderline passable in maths! Considering that, she is all right.. :-)

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, well Kumon maths has been put down as one of the reasons why nips score so high in maths in all international competition. This is the riddle , as i have understood from TV programmes on Japan (and there is a quite a few of them) that their education system is essentially very much like the indian system WITH MASSIVE EMPHASIS ON ROTE LEARNING.In fact there is a massive demand amongst japanese parents for the only Indian school in Tokyo , because of its emphasis on maths (OP Singhal Keshab nag)!!. But I think my mother’s advice is the best. I used to be awful in maths , and just couldn’t break through the threshold of mediocrity. My mother said maths should be treated like a arts subject, just practice , practice, practice , the same sum again and again , itv will fall into place. Well she must have been right , I got letter (as you know >80%) in maths, and managed to get national scholarship by govt of india , due to me being in first fifty of the HS exam.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    I guess I should have studied harder.. was always very lazy.. never managed more than 2 hrs a day till my 10th standard.. and, my parents encouraged me to go out and play in the streets..
    I actually went to watch Shatranj ke khiladi the day before my maths paper in CBSE; ah, those days :-)
    It was actually a blessing that I was scared of dissecting- anything. I would never have coped with the workload of biology. Saved me the trouble of finding out if I could ever be a doctor- and doubtless saved many patients from certain death :P
    Enough digression; back to the blog.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish , In one of your responses to syed who being “loose jawed” at the cadence of your english , you said that it was the product of a bengali medium school. I can’t seem to remember any bengali medium school offering cbse. as for my case I did not want to become a doctor , but my father was a doctor , I remember him speaking to the father of one of my classmate(who desperately wanted to become a doctor)”oke , dakatari portayee hobey”. Not much choice left is it. left to me I wanted to study economics in presidency , and then hopefully a job with RBI , what a cushy life. But here I am , not only a doctor but a general surgeon , which was also with more than little preference shown to that branch by my then girl friend. Now medicine is good , bad and ugly. The good bit is IT IS THE ULTIMATE , the human body , no wonder after we passed our FRCS , we are offered a glass of champagne to celebrate and told “NOW ARE 007, LICENSE TO KILL!!!!)The bad bit is the exam after exam , and the gruelling long long hours of training , the ugly bit is the craving for money.
    Again left it to me I would have become a dermatologist , it is a fascinating subject.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    I was in Calcutta till 1977 (grew up in Chetla) went to a school called New Alipore Multipurpose (under the so called Durgapur bridge) till my 8th standard- came to Delhi and cbse thenceforth.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, you have let the penny drop. It was delhi that did all that good to your english diction. I grew up in sinthee (near dumdum), went to scottish church school , i was born in patna and went to St michaels (when it was kosher firingee school) , then moved to calcutta at class eight.Though from your posting I can make out you are Khati bangalee. I am more of a bihali. Though I must moving to calcutta was every penny’s worth. A wonderful world would have remained completely closed. I hope you can read and write bengali (because yours is a reverse to my experience). To paraphrase what Kurosawa said about Satyajit Ray, Not watching Ajitesh and Rudraprasad , is like having born and not watched the sun and moon. I am aware of the depth of decline , in that state. Hope mamata can usher in a second bengal renaissance.

  • Bobby

    “How can a democratic government, knowing fully what its police, paramilitary and army is capable of doing, resist signing the international covenant on torture?”

    For instance, I did not know about India not signing the “international covenant on torture”. Its a shame, that we can allow this to go on.

    If we care about our country being a compassionate and just country, then we cannot let the GoI not sign such an important international agreement. Can we let India be a country where people are tortured in police stations and dissidents tortured in army camps in the NE, Kashmir and other hot spots?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Hi Bobby,
    we care abt being a fair and just and compassionate.. and .. and .. whatever society.. but, we care for our safety first.
    It is an open secret that most “encounter killings” are staged; the Mumbai underworld was decimated by ruthless policing. Do I support those? Hell, yes. I do. In my case, right wing reactioanry that I am, it is not a surprise. But, how many people in Mumbai, even among your ideological brothers rally against encounter deaths?
    When it comes to Sohrabuddin, our lachrymose glands become hyperactive. Or, the cause celebre of you liberals- the girl who got mixed up in bad company and got shot dead.
    I may not like torture; I may be ideologically against it. But, I concede it is inevitable.
    Now, freedom of expression:
    Last we exchanged notes on Politics, you called yourself some “anarcho-something”.. now, while I am glad you have developed a soft corner for democracy, I firmly believe freedom of expression can only be granted to those who believe in it themselves.
    Also, freedom of expression can not be used to spread outright lies. Read Varghese George’s current post. Poets are allowed poetic license, but only while writing poetry.
    If Ms Roy spreads calumny of this sort against a person, he has recourse to the libel laws. If she spreads calamny against the State, what can the state do?
    Seriously, I sometimes think Ms Roy needs an armed escort to the POK border.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “If she spreads calamny against the State, what can the state do?”

    What do you mean “What can the state do”. Do you agree with what the state of China did when it arrested the Chinese dissident when he “spread calamny” against the state?

    The state is not “My-Baap”. We have a duty and a right to change the priorities of the State. And we will not be able to do that till we hear the other view.

    “Also, freedom of expression can not be used to spread outright lies”
    Which part of her speech was a lie? I agree that it should not be used to spread lies, which is precisely why the actual liars,- the sangh parivar are the ones who should not be allowed to tell lies… Not Arundhati Roy. Just because you dont like to see the mirror does not mean she is a liar.

    “anarcho-something”.. is not the opposite of democracy.

    Finally tell me, how does having 700000 military men in Kashmir keep us safe? It definitely is against the safety and freedom of the Kashmiris. How does curbing press freedom in Kashmir, help in keeping us safe? How does having special powers acts in the NE where a military man, can shoot some one dead, and not be asked any question… How does it help in keeping us safe?

    The fact is people including you, have swallowed every word of the nonsense and lies that the GoI has spread, and are ready to believe any thing they say, while they go about doing what ever they want in these parts of India.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby perhaps you would like to tell us bloggers why thw 700000 military men are in kashmir in the first place. In order to spare you the trouble of scrolling upwards here is a cut and paste
    LEASE CAN SOMEBODY TELL ME WHY CRPF /ARMY HAS GONE TO KASHMIR. Is it the attraction of dal lake, or buy cricket bat made from kashmiri willow, or to taste the apples.Do these people have wife children , would he be rather with his family , than taking abuses and SEVERE injuries from stone pelting.apparently EIGHT HUNDREED are lying in hospital.
    Gleamed from an article I understand when Farook abdullah came to power , the opening shot fired by the militants causing the first casualty , the victim being a block head of NCP.Now if there is a daily ORGY of FIDAYEEN attacks claiming the life of mirwaiz farook’s father and the life of sajjad lone’sfather. Incidentally Lone Snr usedto be a CONGRESSI before switching over when he was denied share of the pie.now with constant fidayeen attacks , kidnapping and BEHEADING OF NORWEGIAN TOURIST which effectively hammered the last nail in the coffin of foreign tourist industry. Next was “indian” tourist getting murdered in bus, and then there is the sikh massacre.
    So What does Miss Roy and her chela bobby suggest. Leave kashmir in the hands OF FIDAYEEN .
    Apparently the scums (azadi jihadi complex) told the pandits MEN FOLKS LEAVE , YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR WOMEN FOLKS BEHIND

    Bobby Reply:

    @Shan,

    According to the governments own admission, there are not more than100-200 militants in the Valley. Are you telling me that you need 700000 military men to tackle 200 men? They have 1 military person for every 15 civilians for christs sake!

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    You have ignored the first couple of paras of my response; inconvenient, huh?
    Let me explain what I mean when I ask the question “what can the state do?” It was not a rhetorical question; though it obviously suits you to take recourse to rhetorics while answering it.
    My question is straightforward: what should the state do in case the very basis of our laws, statehood and nationhood are called into question on dubious logic and even more dangerously on “facts” that do not stand the scrutiny of evidence?
    The state can dismiss such rants as lunacy; or if rants such as gain currency and/ or legitimacy on the strength of a captivating persona (Ms Roy or Hitler), the government must and should evaluate its options.
    Thank you again, for your professing belief in democratic values and systems. Till you overthrow the state, of course! We must continue to extend Mr Navlakha, Mr Geelani and Ms Roy precisely those courtesies and privileges that they will deny us when their vision becomes reality. It is telling that Kobad Ghandy developed a love for the democratic system, our rule of law and constitutional provisions only after he was arrested.
    Finally, can you please be consistent in your attempts at labeling me? Till recently, I seemed to be in RSS la la land; now, I have swallowed the GOI line – hook and sinker.
    It is similar to what Shan posted sometime back “RSS inspired Govt of India”- you guys have me worried, very worried.

    Bobby Reply:

    The reason why Arundhati Roy and others like her are disliked amongst the middle class- “patriotic Indians” is the same as why Taslima Nasreen was hated by the Islamic clerics and fundamentalists—— Both attacked the core beliefs of the fundamentalists of the respective groups.

    S Singh Reply:

    mr bobby

    Instead of giving a generalized sweep, it will be better and humble if you qualify your statement with “it is my assessment”… “arundhati is disliked by the middle class” (is it so? is it 5% of the mmiddle class or 75%???How do you know? Was there a survey result?)

    Comparing Arundhati and Taslima’s experience fits in with you and your secular elks constant endeavour to find equivalency between Muslim extremism and something in India.

    Tasilma was threatened with death. Her life was in danger. Her books were banned. State could not protect her, and was after her (although the new govt of Bengla Desh nowhas taken several admirable steps to prevent extremism including the ban of Maudidis books, because they do not want to go through a “pakistan experience”.

    Arndhati is not threatened (may be by individual hecklers, but not by any organized groups), state has not said it will not protect her, her books are not banned.

    Arundhati’s problem is taht she does not know when, what, how. Now since she does not (or may eb cannot) write , she wants to be in the limelighht for whatever. A writer who peaked with one book and too early, she is liike Pearl. And it looks like she is becoming like Pearl Buck – loosey goosey, ignored by fellow writers, moving from one to another, dying in some remotte place, with an obituary coming three weeks after her death.

    shan Reply:

    @S Singh , you plonker what are talking about Pearl Buck received NOBEL PRIZE for her book THE GOOD EARTH, the bengali translation (abridged) I had read in my childhood.

    S Singh Reply:

    Shan

    Yes, pearl Buck received Nobel prize…and she was downhill ver since …losing audience, admirers.. towards the end she was ven going from rural areas to rural areas runninga circus company with her xxth husband.. She died I believe two years ago, and her obituary was published three weeks after her death.

    ram autar Reply:

    what anurdhati roy says is right.kashmir was never part of india.during british time it was not under british control.mughul never ruled this area.in 1947 kashmir was annexed by indian army like czar annexed chechenya.
    but india should not be destroyed to continue occupation.we have to know how to coexist.
    brhmnst wants to teach lesson,as every voilence make them rich.

    ram autar Reply:

    mr singh taslima was respected by hate filled vedics of india to hurt muslims.she knew what she was was writing and its consequences,she could leave islam and write anything she wanted,nobody will object.christians zoinists and hindu zoinists have written more than 60000 books to defame islam.who cares.

    ram autar Reply:

    u are right shan,
    MAIN bhi ek bengali zulf ka aseer(bemaar) hoon.par, kya karoon,
    USEE KO DEKH KAR JEETE HAIN ,JIS QATIL PE DUM NIKLE.

    Ravi Reply:

    zindaagi sirf mohabbat nahin kuchh aur bhi hai
    zulf-o-rukhsaar ki zannat nahin kuchh aur bhi hai
    bhookh aur pyaas ki mari hui is duniya mein
    ishq hi sirf haqiqat nahin kuchh aur bhi hai
    tum agar aankh churao to ye haq hai tumko
    maine tumse hi nahin sabse mohabbat ki hai

    ram autar Reply:

    ravibhai,

    nikalna khuld(heaven)se adam ka sunte ayeihain le lekin
    bade be`abroo hokar uske kooche (locality)hum nikle.
    hazaron khawashein aisee ki har khawish pe dum nikle
    bahut nikle mere arman lekin phir bhi kum nikle.

    binoy is really worried so i finish it.shan will write english translation of these peoms for mr hegde.

    Ravi Reply:

    Kahan mehgane ka darvaza aur kahan wahiz
    Hum itna jante hain kal wo jata tha ke hum nikale.

    However, Ram Autar, in the context of this blog, may I offer….

    Jab ke TUJH bin nahin koi maujood.
    Phir ye hangama eh khuda kya hai.

    shan Reply:

    This is ram autar of calcutta.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Arundhati is for herself.. By depicting EMS Namboodiripad, a well-respected Marxist leader and a chief minister of Kerala multiple times, as an evil one in her book, she won the admiration of the western media. There is nothing westerners like more than dumping on India/Asia. She continues that saga.

    At least Mary, her mother, accomplished something for women, Kerala christian women, in terms of property rights. For all the noise Arundhati has created, can anybody name a tangible thing she has achieved for the suffering people?

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    You think Arundhati is for herself? God bless you, for you are beyond any human help.

    ram autar Reply:

    gopi ems cheated the poors like marxist of bengal.vedic wolves change their skin with time.only and only aim is to keep supermacy in society.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Outer

    EMS did not cheat ; and was not corrupt like the modern day communists. He gave away his considerable land holdings to the poor and the party; he brought the first land reforms in India giving land away to the cultivators fromn landlords.

    Kerala’s social progress, while partly rooted to the womens rights etc prevalent from long time ago, is also due to the visionary programs of the first few communist governments under EMS.

    EMS was a different communist, unlike Jyotibasu, or Vijayan.

    shan Reply:

    There is no tax for making sweeping statements

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    I have found them often taxing my patience

    hoojin2 Reply:

    A fundamentalist liberal is also a fundamentalist. The rest of us call this beast ‘maoist’

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, have you heard the word RAKTA BIJ. How many were involved in 9/11, twelve only, led to cataclysmic change in US, lead to formation of an entire new dept in that countries two hundreed years history called HOMELAND SECURITY. How many came in that inflatable dingee , for whom your heart bleeds , and how many died in that carnage. What are you are proposing is not just garbage it is also reckless and dangerous.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, as muchyou brag about your english , I thought it should be apparent to anyone this was a dig at someone who thinks RSS is like an all envoloping ether.This in no way detracts from my views about RSS of which you should be familiar by now.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Ashish,

    I am not ignoring anything. The fact is that in “encounter deaths” more than 50% deaths are of innocents. In arrests uunder the “POTA” less than 10% are genuine cases. Mostly they used and abused. Is that desirable? Or do statistics mean nothing?

    To kill two terrorists if ten innocents have to die in “mistaken encounters” or arrested by mistake under “POTA”, well then sorry its not acceptable to me.

    And its clear you have no idea about what Gautam Navlakha or Arundhati Roys writings and views are about. The are 100% pro-demopcracy, but not of the type you call democracy- Not democracy under 700000 military men, not democracy of torture , and not democracy of special powers act. Thats not democracy- thats military rule.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Bobby,
    your presumption is of course, that I “have no idea” about the views and writing of GN and AR.. because, anyone who were familiar with their writing – can not help but agree with them. Right?

    Well, wrong!

    shan Reply:

    This is rich coming from someone who presumably has some links with that state called west bengal which witnessed the kind of barbaric and heinous murder gopi tals about , of policemen, VC of jadavpore university, and countless very ordinary bengalees who could not meet the extortion demands of the naxalites, like a ordinary shop keeper , teacher , doctor.
    There is police excess in every country on planet earth. Why doesn’t bobby speak about the bedlam that is govt hospital. Well its not cool you see.

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Ashish

    “We must continue to extend Mr Navlakha, Mr Geelani and Ms Roy precisely those courtesies and privileges that they will deny us when their vision becomes reality”

    If you say this about Navlakha and Roy, then for sure, you have no idea what they are saying.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    do you remember how many terrorists it needed in Mumbai to commit carnage? And they were holed up without local support.
    What is your estimate of the carnage potential of the 200-300 terrorists in Kashmir?

  • Vinay

    @Shan,
    Regarding Kashmir: I am repeating whatever I have said earlier. End of the day, some youths who are brainwashed to be tribal are burning their shop, stoning their schools and for them it is their Azadi. Why should Indian government hell bent on depriving these people from their “independence”? Let them destroy their properties. Let the CRPF people not go there to control these freedom fighters. Let locals better taste this kind of Azadi for a while. (We just have to guard, these (disturbing) elements do not penetrate out of the Valley).

    “Over assertion” leads to aversion. (on one side heavy aids, on the other side heavy military presence… both draining our economy). Stop giving aids and call back CPRF forces.

    Your “Sunni idea”. Bangladesh split with Pak. If Jammu-Kashmir had joined Pakistan as a whole, is their any guarantee they would not have clashed with Punjabi Pakistan? We always fight over states, languages, river (If it is a same state, then we will have “let’s split” fight … Telangala…). “Infighting is our birth right”. Religion is only a catalyst, not the fuel.

    @Ashish
    Really sad, you were not aware of this research centre, which is so close by. Some more information which I gathered about this NGO ( http://www.iosworld.org/schol.htm ). They provide scholarship for talent promotion to prepare “young scholars” for their definite role in achieving the objectives of the IOS. This includes “Scholarship for Madrasa Students Opting Social Sciences and Humanities (SMS)”. There is the list of the IOS publications ( http://www.iosworld.org/publicat1.htm ). One can just read the gist of some books. They are “enlightening”; like the reason for secular Aurangzeb to destroy Vishvanath Temple at Varanasi (to rescue women members of Rajastan royal family who had gone there on pilgrimage), according to research work of Dr. B. N. Pande. Ram Autar could be a scholarship holder. Wonder what his publication lists are.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Vinay

    Is this fru…..thing for real? This IOS thing? Is this a branch of the Jamai Mlla university? Is it funded by our secular congress govt?

    What else is news other than “Islam in Danger”. Can these stupid guys educate one guy/girl normal way other than giving 150 scholarships to study Quran in depth/

    What a joke and jokers..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i was in riad last month.they are spending 15 billion dollars to built one girls college for 50000
    girls.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    amount of kingdom is spending on education is just colossal.best american professor
    are there to help locals to establish world best educational institutions.some of them are in operation.ignorance is bliss.

    ram autar Reply:

    vinay aurangzeb never destroyed any temple.he was great ruler.his ministry had 37%hindus .his pm and cnc were hindus.it is only in his time that indian economy exceeded chinese
    economy.india was economic superpower.he is the only ruler who kept his son in jail for 18 yrs on graft charges.all chitrakoot temples were built on his order and financial support.there are hundreds of furmans issued by him donating land to temples.
    britishers demonized him as he was great indian.vishwanath temple was demolished by rajputs to avenge the insult of women folk.it was aurangzeb who ordered half temple half mosque.
    when he died,his personal income by stiching caps was given to hindus,while income through writing quran was distributed to muslim subject.

    brhmns were main benficiary of moghul rule.during their rule they became powerful.they made mistake by pouring milk on serpents.
    indira ghandhi demolished golden temple but reason was not religious.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, I totally agree , as there is a saying in UK “You can only do so much”. Also if somebody is determined to jump in front of a moving train , you can shout cajole , plead , request offer incentives cry your heart out , but at the end of the day it is the individual’s decision and not a great deal you can do.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Apparently the scums (azadi jihadi complex) told the pandits MEN FOLKS LEAVE , YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR WOMEN FOLKS BEHIND

    shan this is absolute lie.a typical brhmncl lie.to provocate the muslims.and incite hindus.
    indian fascist take temporary support from bhadralok with slogan like.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Vinay,
    thank you for this information- as a father of a teenager, I am always on the lookout for such career defining opportunities for her…. ;-)
    Sorry, I am just taking out my frustration… her maths scores yesterday were less than perfect :-)

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Indiia has achieved a lot in 60 years. It could have gone the way of Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan etc that achieved independence around the same time. It could have also progressed as much as South Korea, if it was not a democarcy. The fact that the country withstood many challenges, fractions, and moved in a common direction, speaks a lot about our “founding fathers” (as Zia calls our founding leaders) It is poised for lot of gtreat things. A country rooted in history, emboldened by confidence, strengthened by wealth and innovation can achieve a lot, and it will.

    Ashis Mandy is mocking the new middle class — mostly the disadvantaged (by caste or income in the past) from the old order – that somehow they do not have “middle class values” but only middle class wealth; they are middle class only by virtue of money. This is the liberal secularist view. “We will decide for you, you have money, but you do not have value”..Who is he to pass a sweeping simplification on a group that has broken barriers and for the first time have levers of power.

    “we have made fools of ourselves in front of the whole world” … Who says? Why should we care about world opinion? Who is the world – the Pakistani thugs, the Chinese mercenaries, the American capitalists, the Russian oligarchs , the African killers, the Israeli occupiesr…… Ashis is a vestige of good old useless socialism uttering nonsense; a country cannot be run based on what he says or not.

    It is a given fact that a country becomes more “natioanlistic” when its economy improves. They reconnect with roots, monuments and symbolisms become important, history becomes vivid. China is busily restoring its emperors and dynasties, buying lost antiqueties from the west. Leaders have to ensure to drive this in a positive way, for a negative tarction can lead to an environment like Nazism. I am not implying we are close to Nazism; in fact I am confident we will never be there — it simply is not in Indian DNA, in spite of TRAvi and Bobby constantly hate mongeringa bout RSS and Hindwata..

    Freedom has limits, at one end a total freedom will create a banana republic or no republic. at all, full of anarchy. Information should be available so citizens are informed. nothing wrong in supporting Adivasis; but everything wrong in supporting Naxals.

    (tons of money is allocated for adivasis, but are stolen by govt officials and local politicians).

    let me talk about Naxals. In their late sixties/early seventies incarnation – the Kanu Sanyal era – they went on indiscriminate killing. My mother said a local post master, Mr Potty, here in Kerala, was killed and his head stuck on the gate spire (he was not rich, his only fault was he had three acres of land). Police constables killed. They are doing the same thing now. Why dont they kill a minister, a senior bureaucrat, one or two MPS, so these people will get “straightened” out–they continue their monkey business of killing poor constables, school teachers..Do they think the system will change by killing these innocents for whom the people in power do not care…..

    Dont worry about a little torture here or there. Killers are lurking around. Jhundreds of Muslim boys were arrested just last month in my district (in Kerala! of all the places!) on credible evidence of attending terrorist tarining classes at LeT camps in Pakistan and in Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi, Mostly agree , regarding maoist , everything that you witnessed happened in west bengal and bobby and ashish are damn aware of it . At the same time there is no smoke wiyhout fire. As much this HARVARD educated well heeled Chidambaram , like to shout about the maoist ideology speaking about the parliament being a pig’s stye, HE SHOULD ASK HIMSELF ABOUT THE “. RECRUITMENT BONANZA “. Where do they get these foot soldiers , there is GENUINE DEPRIVATION , at the same time perhaps the lure of adventure , two square meal a day(would you beleive it a richshaw puller in calcutta (bihari) became naxal because food was guaranteed through extortion.The govt should go for the HEADS, bang up kishen ji , every thing will fall into place. Same is in Bihar , the ranvir sena had created the fertile ground for recruitment , I have seen a BBC documentary , a bihari bhaiyya was exhorting people to rise up against the oppression.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ya, the most absurd notion secularists bring to an isue on hand is “what about world opinion — world wiill laugh”.. Gopi rightly points to the nonsense of this argument..

    What is world opinion? Whose opinion? Is it Chinese? (that takes care of 1.5 billion people). is it the dictatorial slave owning women suppressing illiterate cultureless 6th century Arabs?(takes care of another 1.2 billion people). Is it US that bombed Iraq, UK that sided with them (and before 1950s controlled half of the world)? (that takes care of 500 million people)? Is it the African criminal leaders (unfortunately or fortunately, based on ones view, mostly Muslim leaders!) who rape their land and people ? (that takes care of 700 million people..

    Then we find that when these seculars talk about world opinion, it is their own opinion — they are so out of touch or full of their own —

    Secularists want India decimated. Arundhati Roy is going bananas. Read Varghese George’ blog on her accusation about Shopian (and other stuff)

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde,
    How can we end corruption & exploitation when Hindu values worship the filthy rich?
    Every society, every country in the world is governed by its value system. And the values come from our religions. The Western values are governed by its Christian religion, the Muslim values from Islam and in the East particularly China it is the Budhism that set the values.
    That is how the West has made tremendous progress not only in science and technology but also in liberal thoughts, literature, philosophy, social sciences etc.
    The progress achieved by the West is so evident from the big rush of Indian students to Western universities and later settling down there itself for jobs, cursing India. All rich upper castes love to live and even settle down in the West, particularly the US and say they hate everything Indian.
    China replacing Japan: In the East, China is poised to become the world’s No.1 country in a couple of years. It is expected to replace Japan as the No.2 world economy in another year.
    All the Eastern countries like Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and even the little Vietnam, completely wrecked in the American bombing raids, are surpassing India in all spheres.
    Why every other country in the world is soaring to new heights while the ancient India, the second most populous country in the world (1,200 millions), is languishing and limping?
    Values come from religion: There is no mystery in this. The answer lies in our value system. And to repeat, the values come from the religion. Unfortunately our values are set by the religion of Hinduism that governs us. Defenders of Hinduism may quote from a stray sentence here and there to contradict us but there is no Hindu religious institution in India or even outside which does not roll in wealth.
    During the remote past of Indus Valley Civilization of the Harappa and Mohenjadaro glory, it was a flouring system which the invading Aryan-Brahminical marauders destroyed.
    The oppression let loose by the Brahmins produced the country’s greatest spiritual philosopher, the Budha, who fought the Brahmins and launched the golden period of Indian history.
    The Brahmins infiltrated Budhism and fought the Budha’s Dhamma both from within and without and injected their spiritual poison which caused our steep fall and deep decline.
    Manu & Chanakya : History records all the barbarous values that were injected into our veins by the Manu Dharma Shastra and Chanakya’s Arthasastra — the two guiding Brahminical spiritual poison that set our values.
    Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, the Father of India, has exhaustively dealt with all these subjects in his voluminous writings and speeches. And hence no need for repetition.
    M.K. Gandhi, the humbug who roamed in the guise of a sanyasi, injected all the dangerous Brahminical values into our veins. It is these values that make us think that Gandhi is a Mahatma. As long as the country goes on calling him a Mahatma we will continue to be steeped in the Brahminic poisonous values.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Doosra Banvas

    By Kaifi Azmi

    Ram banwaas se jab laut ke ghar mein aaye,
    Yaad jangal bahut aaya jo nagar mein aaye,
    Raqsse deewangee aangan mein jo dekha hoga,
    6 december ko Shri Ram ne socha hoga,
    Itne deewane kahan se mere ghar mein aaye?
    Jagmagate thhe jahan Ram key qadmon ke nishaan,
    Piyaar kee kahkashan leti thi angdayee jahan,
    Mod nafrat ke usee rah guzar mein aaye,
    Dharam kya unka hae, kya zaat hae, yeh janta kaun?
    Ghar na jalta tau unhe raat mein pehchanta kaun,
    Ghar jalane ko mera, log jo ghar mein aaye,
    Shakahari hae mere dost tumahara khanjar.
    Tumne Babar kee taraf pheke thhe saare patthar
    Hae mere sar ki khata zakhm jo sar mein aaye,
    Paun Sarjoo mein aabhi Ram ne dhoye bhee na thhe
    Ke nazar aaye wahan khoon ke gehre dhabbe,
    Paun dhoye bina Sarjoo ke kinare se uthe,
    Ram yeh kehte hue aapne dwaare se uthe,
    Rajdhani kee fiza aayee nahin raas mujhe,
    6 December ko mila doosra banwaas mujhe.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Have to say beautiful poetry , rather punctured my pompous beleif only people of gaur can write and appreciate poetry. Keep posting more.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Same Kaif Azmi wrote…..note refernce to Ram in this fantastic poem.

    Khench Do Apne Khoon Se Zameen Par Lakeer,
    Is Taraf Aane Ne Paaye Na Raawan Koyi,
    Tord Do Haath Agar Haath Uthne Lage,
    Chune Paaye Na Sita Ka Daaman Koyi,
    Ram Bhi Tum, tumhi Lakshman Saathiyon,
    Ab Tumhare Hawale, Watan Saathiyon..

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    till brhmns live on this soil incidents like this will be repeated again and again.
    they have perfected themselve in art of war and sex.
    lie hatred war and voilence is their staple food.
    pass their life in eating entertainment sex and cheating.

    shan Reply:

    it was from the film haqueqat, I am a film buff.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Pl give English translation

    ram autar Reply:

    Ab Tumhare Hawale, Watan Saathiyon..

    swiss bank mein pahooch gaya watan sathiyoon

    ram autar Reply:

    Vinay Reply:

    October 31st, 2010 at 5:48 am

    Ramji,
    How many more discs you are planning to play here? Looks like, you have got a very good collection in your library

    karo intizar mere sathiyon

    ram autar Reply:

    there is no historical proof that ram was ever born in india.capital of thailand was also ayodhya.
    lie that mosque was built on temple was fabricated to grab mosque and its adjoining land.normal game of brhmn thugs.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    fru—-ng illiterate Pakistani low IQ moron Muslim Jehadist Ram Atwar

    Will u get lost— Ur nonsense is beyond stupidity

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Hindutva, the unique Indian form of Indian fascism, is the modern incarnation of Brahminism. Although it projects itself as the defender of the ‘Hindu’ community against imagined ‘enemies’, such as Muslims and Christians, it is actually premised on an unrelenting hostility towards the vast majority of the so-called ‘Hindus’ themselves-Dalits, Shudras and tribals. The very basis of what is today called Hinduism is the caste system, which is specifically geared to preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste hegemony that is based on the systematic exploitation and oppression of the so-called ‘lower’ castes. Hindutva, therefore, is not to be characterized as ‘Hindu communalism’ as such, as it does not represent the interests of all so-called ‘Hindus’ as such. As numerous writers have pointed out, a more apt description of Hindutva is that it is the contemporary form of Brahminism. In other words, Hindutva may be defined as Brahminical fascism.
    This being the case, Hindutva cannot be countered simply through pious appeals to ‘Hindu-Muslim unity’. The fatal mistake that secularists have consistently been making is to see Hindutva as simply ‘Hindu communalism’. Consequently, they have been trying, ineffectively, to combat it simply by invoking a common ethical impulse that they argue underlies the different religions. Since Hindutva represents the contemporary agenda of Brahminism, it poses an immense threat not just to the Muslims of the country, but equally, or perhaps even more so, to the vast majority of the so-called ‘Hindus’ themselves-the Dalits, Shudras and tribals, who, taken together, form more than 70 per cent of the country’s population as a whole-the Bahujan Samaj. Clearly, Hindutva aims at preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste rule and ‘lower’ caste slavery, inspired by a vision that draws on the cruel laws that the Brahminical scriptures prescribe for the ‘lower’ castes. As Shamsul Islam rightly notes, the
    Hindu Right aims at ‘denying [.] Dalits of all human rights’[1], and the same applies for its implications for other members of the Bahujan Samaj. The most effective way of countering Hindutva is, therefore, to mobilize these marginalized groups against the Hindutva forces by exposing the grave threats that the Hindutva agenda poses for them. In other words, highlighting the menacing implications of Hindutva for the Dalit-Bahujans is the surest way to combat Hindutva, for it is they who are today being so assiduously used by ‘upper’ caste forces as foot-soldiers in their pogroms against Muslims and Christians, thus threatening to drive the country to the brink of civil war. The Dalit-Bahujans account for the vast majority of the Indian population, and if they are able to see through the Brahminical designs behind the Hindutva project, Hindutva would die a natural death.
    This booklet is a critique of Hindutva from a Dalit-Bahujan perspective. It focuses on what Hindutva means for the Dalit-Bahujans, showing how it is essentially geared to preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste Hindu rule and suppressing the stirrings of revolt that are now becoming increasingly visible among the ‘low’ caste majority.

    The Historical Roots of Hindutva

    The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) was established in 1925 by K.B.Hedgewar, a Maharashtrian Brahmin. Initially, almost all its members were Brahmins, and even today, its top level leaders are almost entirely from the ‘upper’ castes, particularly Brahmins. The RSS was founded at a time when Maharashtra was witnessing a powerful movement of revolt among the ‘lower’ castes against ‘upper’ caste tyranny led by such stalwarts as Mahatma Jotiba Phule and Dr. Ambedkar. The establishment of the RSS at this time was hardly coincidental. Rather, it is apparent that the rise of ‘lower’ caste consciousness and protest against ‘upper’ caste hegemony was a key factor in the setting up of the RSS. The spread of the RSS in other parts of the country can also be explained on similar lines. Feeling increasingly threatened by the growing awareness and militancy among the ‘lower’ castes, ‘upper’ caste leaders found in the ideology of Hindutva a convenient way to co-opt the ‘lower’ castes and to divert their wrath from their real oppressors (the ‘upper’ castes/classes) onto imagined enemies in the form of Muslims, Christians and communists. By appealing to the notion of an imagined ‘Hindu nation’ and ‘Hindu community’, Hindutva ideologues (almost all Brahmins) sought to deny the existence of internal caste and class contradictions among the so-called ‘Hindus’. This denial aimed at drawing the ‘lower’ castes behind the ‘upper’ castes, and to destroy ‘lower’ caste movements of protest against ‘upper’ caste hegemony. Accordingly, the plight of the ‘lower’ castes was sought to be explained away as a result of alleged Muslim or Christian ‘persecution’, while the ‘Hindu’ period of history was glorified as a ‘golden age’. In this rewriting of history, the oppression of the ‘lower’ castes that saw its genesis in the so-called ‘golden age’ was completely ignored. So, too, was the inconvenient fact that the oppression of the ‘lower’ castes is specifically mentioned and prescribed in all the Brahminical scriptures.
    Yet, the projection of the notion of a united ‘Hindu nation’ was only at the level of rhetoric. In actual fact, the proponents of Hindutva sought to carefully preserve the exploitative caste-class system by conveniently remaining silent on it. And this continues to be the case till today. Not surprisingly, the Hindutvawadais have never taken up any militant struggles for the rights of the Dalits, for distribution of land to the poor, for the rights of workers and tribals and so on. Instead, they have consistently supported the interests of the capitalist-feudal-Brahminical elites. Not surprisingly, the core support-base of the Hindutva movement since its inception onwards has consisted of landlords, former rulers of princely states, industrialists, merchants, priests-’upper’ castes in general, all of whose interests are diametrically opposed to the Dalit-Bahujans’, and whose hegemony is based on their systematic subjugation.
    That Hindutva fundamentally aims at the preservation of the Brahminical system, based as it is on the exploitation of the ‘lower’ caste majority, has been pointed out by numerous scholars. In his incisive study of the Hindutva phenomenon, titled Saffron Fascism, Shyam Chand, a Dalit scholar and activist who served for many years as member of the Haryana Legislative Assembly, quotes from a secret circular sent out by the RSS to its preachers. It clearly indicates the sinister Brahminical strategy of using the Dalit-Bahujans to attack the Muslims and Christians, while at the same time aiming to keep the Dalit-Bahujans under the permanent slavery of the ‘upper’ castes.
    Excerpts from Secret Circular No.411 issued by the RSS:
    [.] Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes are to be recruited to the party so as to increase the volunteers to fight against the Ambedkarites and Mussalmans.
    Hindutva should be preached with a vengeance among physicians and pharmacists so that, with their help, time expired [sic.] and spurious medicines might be distributed amongst the Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Scheduled Tribes. The newborn infants of Shudras, Ati-Shudras, Mussalmans, Christians and the like should be crippled by administering injections to them. To this end, there should be a show of blood-donation camps.
    Encouragement and instigation should be carried on [sic.] more vigorously so that the womenfolk of Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Christians live by prostitution.
    Plans should be made more foolproof so that the people of the Scheduled Castes, Backward Classes, Musslamans and Christians, especially the Ambedkarites, become crippled by taking in [sic.] harmful eatables.
    Special attention should be given to the students of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so as to make them read the history written according to our dictates.
    During riots the women of Mussalmans and Scheduled Castes should be gang-raped. Friends and acquaintances cannot be spared. The work should proceed on the Surat model.
    Publication of writings against Mussalmans, Christians, Buddhists and Ambedkarites should be accelerated. Essays and writings should be published in such a way as to prove that Ashoka was opposed to the Aryans.
    All literature opposed to Hindus and Brahmins are [sic.] to be destroyed. Dalits, Mussalmans, Christians and Ambedkarites should be searched out. Care should be taken to see that this literature do [sic.] not reach public places. Hindu literature is to apply [sic.] to the Backward Classes and Ambedkarites.
    The demand by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for filling in the backlog vacancies in services shall by no means be met. Watch should be kept to see that their demands for entry and promotion in government, non-government or semi-government institutions are to be rejected and their service records are destroyed with damaging reports.
    Measures should be taken to make the prejudices amongst Scheduled Castes and Backward people more deep-rooted. To this end, help must be taken from saints and ascetics.
    Attacks should be started with vigour against equality, preaching communists [sic.], Ambedkarites, Islamic teachers, Christian missionaries and neighbours [?].
    Assaults should be made on Ambedkar’s statues with greater efforts.
    Dalit and Muslim writers are to be recruited to the party and by them essays and literature opposed to the Dalits, Ambedkarites and Mussalmans written and preached [sic.]. Attention is to be paid to see that these writings are properly edited and preached [sic.].
    Those opposed to Hindutva are to be murdered through false encounters. For this work the help of the police and semi-military [sic.] forces should always be taken.”[2]
    *
    In the face of this circular, no more evidence is needed to show what Hindutva actually bodes for the Dalit-Bahujans. It circular very clearly indicates that Hindutva aims essentially at preserving the oppression of the Dalit-Bahujans, in addition to the Muslims and Christians, on which the entire edifice of Brahminism stands.

    Vinay Reply:

    Ramji,
    How many more discs you are planning to play here? Looks like, you have got a very good collection in your library.

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde why u angry.tilak has written to britishers that we are not indian.
    since arrival u people are plundering and looting india.u are with ur satanic cousins in america.stay there

    ram autar Reply:

    u bloody brhmns are polluting this world.ur forefathers were polishing our shoes for minor favours.sending their women to us.u are only 2%.till u leave india (u are leaving)we can not sleep properly.u are cause of all our problems.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    what the fr—k are you talking –you sick illiterate low IQ jehadi Muslim Pakistani…will you pleasse shut up and find some other place for ur garbage –u dumbwit stupid.. no wonder ur country is going down the tube… go and bomb a mosque …or explode urself in fromnt of NATO troops.. Or serve Gen kayani…u moron stupid low IQ (or no IQ) man..or woman?

    Ur fellwo Muslim Ahmed is arrested here for planning a bomboing in Washingtopn DC metro… many of your fellow country men have been arrested..theyw ant to fr— the country that gave them good life..why dont you cowards go back if you ddont like ..U frukkk Msulims do not allow anybody to live in peace… U friukk Jehadists terrorists low IQ morons

    ram autar Reply:

    benoy everyday hindus are caught in some crime,it does not mean that all hindus are bad.these bstrds are killing innocents all over world .someone might have reacted.washington is not india..why so luv.problem is with our gene.u help muslims to enslave india.then started boot polishing the britishers.helped them to rob india.now america.why u dont luv india and indians.one doc`tor from kanpur killed 235 americans.he was brhmn from kanpur.there is never a day when u people are not caught in financial crime.
    when latin america or vietman was under american control,situation was same.like u people sacrifice indian to achieve ur aim,zoinists kill christians and their wealth to achieve their geo-political aim.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ram Autar

    What a well written expose of RSS. I 100% agree with your analysis.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    It seems that you have run out of arguements to put forward, so instead you are now becoming abusive.

    I suggest that you stick to countering arguements put forward by other blogers, rtaher than call them names, etc.

    Ravi Reply:

    I am with you on this.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    sanghis are usually parrots.from jakarta to lhouston u will find them singing same song n same rythm at the same decible.

  • tajender

    How can we end corruption & exploitation when Hindu values worship the filthy rich?
    Every society, every country in the world is governed by its value system. And the values come from our religions. The Western values are governed by its Christian religion, the Muslim values from Islam and in the East particularly China it is the Budhism that set the values.
    That is how the West has made tremendous progress not only in science and technology but also in liberal thoughts, literature, philosophy, social sciences etc.
    The progress achieved by the West is so evident from the big rush of Indian students to Western universities and later settling down there itself for jobs, cursing India. All rich upper castes love to live and even settle down in the West, particularly the US and say they hate everything Indian.
    China replacing Japan: In the East, China is poised to become the world’s No.1 country in a couple of years. It is expected to replace Japan as the No.2 world economy in another year.
    All the Eastern countries like Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and even the little Vietnam, completely wrecked in the American bombing raids, are surpassing India in all spheres.
    Why every other country in the world is soaring to new heights while the ancient India, the second most populous country in the world (1,200 millions), is languishing and limping?
    Values come from religion: There is no mystery in this. The answer lies in our value system. And to repeat, the values come from the religion. Unfortunately our values are set by the religion of Hinduism that governs us. Defenders of Hinduism may quote from a stray sentence here and there to contradict us but there is no Hindu religious institution in India or even outside which does not roll in wealth.
    During the remote past of Indus Valley Civilization of the Harappa and Mohenjadaro glory, it was a flouring system which the invading Aryan-Brahminical marauders destroyed.
    The oppression let loose by the Brahmins produced the country’s greatest spiritual philosopher, the Budha, who fought the Brahmins and launched the golden period of Indian history.
    The Brahmins infiltrated Budhism and fought the Budha’s Dhamma both from within and without and injected their spiritual poison which caused our steep fall and deep decline.
    Manu & Chanakya : History records all the barbarous values that were injected into our veins by the Manu Dharma Shastra and Chanakya’s Arthasastra — the two guiding Brahminical spiritual poison that set our values.
    Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, the Father of India, has exhaustively dealt with all these subjects in his voluminous writings and speeches. And hence no need for repetition.
    M.K. Gandhi, the humbug who roamed in the guise of a sanyasi, injected all the dangerous Brahminical values into our veins. It is these values that make us think that Gandhi is a Mahatma. As long as the country goes on calling him a Mahatma we will continue to be steeped in the Brahminic poisonous values.
    DV family members need no further elaboration.
    This has direct bearing on each and every action of our society. The governance of a society right from its President, Prime Minister, Parliament, every wing of the society — political party system, bureaucracy, judiciary, defence, education, textbooks, media, commerce and industry, art and literature, health system, business, sports etc. — all these are governed by the Hindu spiritual poison injected into our blood.
    Hindu spiritual values: That is how all of us are feeling helpless, unable to fight back the poisonous values injected into the veins of our forefathers and even to us today. And our children tomorrow.
    Why we all feel so helpless because we are governed by a set of values which are governed by the “Hindu spiritualism”.
    The most striking feature of this Hindu value system makes us think that wealth brings prestige, position, happiness and recognition. This is the most dangerous value which is killing this country.
    Because there is a desperate competition among our people even down to our youth to “somehow” become rich — beg, borrow or steal— even kill. Your parents, teachers, friends, neighbours and even the girl whom you want to marry love the rich, admire the rich. There is a country-wide craze to get rich quick.
    India’s rank falling: But how can you become rich in a country which is dirt poor? Enough statistics are before us. If you have the eyes you can see them.
    Out of about 200 countries in the world in the UN, India’s rank is about 120. And it is steadily going down. Every small country surrounding the giant India has jumped ahead of us. But we are slipping down and down — hitting the rock bottom.
    Yet we go on shamelessly claiming the Security Council seat, posing as “India Shining”. But the fact is India is a failed state. All the biggest cities — where our highest educated Hindus live and call themselves the leaders of all thought and action— are turning into slums. Yes.
    Indian money in Swiss banks: But the fact is India is not a poor country. It is a rich country deliberately kept poor. This is the fact.
    According to C.L. Narasimhan, a financial wizard and a Brahmin who writes for the country’s premier Brahmin English daily, the Hindu, the Indian money kept in Swiss banks is estimated between Rs. 30 lakh crores and Rs. 70 lakh crores. (Hindu Sept.7, 2009).
    Another Brahmin authority, Vaidyanathan, whom he quotes says: “Over the 60 years since independence, the country could have lost as much as 1.5 trillion dollars”.
    Even poorest Indian loves the rich: During the recent Parliament election, BJP leader Advani asked the govt. to get the list of Indians holding secret accounts in Swiss and other “tax heavens” and confiscate the money. ­Wah-wah. The ruling class laughed at the suggestion. Our Khatri Sick PM made a pretense of discussing the subject. Now within months everything is forgotten. Why? Because our value system not only protects the filthy rich but honours them. The Congress Party, BJP and all other parties gave election ticket only to the richest candidates because money can buy votes. Even the poorest of the poor — victim of the system — loves the rich and sells his votes. This is India. That is how Hindu India has never seen a revolution. “Class struggle” can never take place in Hindu India.
    Tirupati temple loves only the rich: What does it mean? The country has lots of fabulously rich people. Millionaires, billionaires, multi-multi crorepatis. India has much richer people than the richest in Britain. The Times of India, the English daily of the Brahminical elite, regularly publishes the list of such billionaires because they command a high respect in our society.
    In the country’s richest temple at Tirupati, the one who offers the largest amount of money gets the highest amount of punya.
    The Ambanis, who pay no taxes, command the greatest respect in India. They can simply walk into the Prime Minister’s office any time. The Brahmin priests of this “holy temple” even carry their god’s idols to the houses of the Ambanis for puja. Ridiculous.
    To repeat, Hindu India respects the filthy rich. The god loves them, newspapers give them maximum coverage. Nobody asks how the Ambanis have made money. God (TV) channels are a roaring success. What a country we have built.
    Who made us to bum-lick the filthy rich? Our religious values.
    China hates the rich: Look at the contrast in China. The world-famous Economist in its latest issue (Sept.5, 2009, p.68) reports that those who hit the richest persons list in China are immediately arrested and put on trial. Those magazines specialising in publishing the richest persons list are the Forbes and Harun Rich List. The anti-communist Economist says:
    “Wealth in China is intextricably tied to crime and corruption”.
    China’s tycoons always get into trouble. One who appeared in the Forbes list last year disappeared and subsequently arrested, it said.
    That is how China went up and Hindu India collapsed.
    In other words, the Chinese value system makes the people hate the rich and in contrast our Hindu value system makes us admire the rascals.
    We say the Ambanis became rich by their “hard work” while the fact known to all those who matter including the media is they pay no taxes and thrive by bribing the Prime Minister directly. The Finance Ministry is in their pocket. Who can touch them?
    Bal Thackeray’s riches: Look at the Shiv Sena thug Bal Thackeray. He was an ordinary journalist like us in a Bombay English daily in the 1960s. How did he become the boss of at least Rs. 1,000 crores? May be more. And commands such a big following that the police dare not touch him?
    There is not even a single rich man in India who has not acquired wealth through fair means. In such a dirt poor country how can any honest person become rich?
    Laxmi Puja: When our value system itself is corrupt, poisonous, naturally it makes us admire and worship the filthy rich. The “goddess of wealth” Laxmi ,gets precedence over the goddess of learning, Saraswati, flung into the filthy gutter and crying for our attention.
    Teachers, who in any society draw the highest respect, an unwanted profession, hated, maligned and ridiculed. No girl is ready to marry a teacher. What a fall.
    This is the Hindu India gone to gutters —stinking in filth. Who can save it?
    India under counter-revolution: There is no short-cut to solve the problem we face — except a wholesale destruction of our values which in other words means ending the hold of Brahminism (Hinduism).
    Who is ready to kill the golden cow that yields the perennial milk all through the year? We are rather prepared to cut our own head than discard this Kamadhenu. And without mercilessly slaughtering this Kamadhenu, there is no short-cut.
    In other words: Revolution. But we are caught in a whirlpool of counter-revolutions.
    Budha had done it. Babasaheb had shown it. Guru Ravidas, Mahatma Phule, Periyar EVR, all the revolutionaries of India, had recommended the same surgical operation of socio-cultural revolution.
    But we did not agree. And that is why we suffer, rot and perish. People get the society they deserve.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Tajender

    Some good points.

    However, I think you go OTT in certain areas and thereby loose your own constituency.

    I would agree with your tirade against Brahmanism and how it gobbled up Buddhism, I myself have writen in similar vein.

    I do not agre with your assesment about Gnadhi.

    I do not agree that India is lagging behing other south Asian contries. China yes, Vietnam No. India has to grapple with a completely different set of problems. Its very large population quickly dissipates any growth it makes. I believe things will change.

    Indian who setlle abroad, still continue to practice which ever religion they were born in. If they hated Hinduism as much as you contend, then they would have changed their religion. But they dont.

    An India with egalitarian values will be a better India

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr vinay i am not against brhmns or hindu religion.everybody shld have right to worship in his own way.what i hate is brhmnsm,wahabism or zoinism.these ideologies were created by western world to rule world.brhmnsm is branded and marketed as hinduism.which is lie.
    it hate filled ideology.first major communal roit was organized by rss in which thousands were killed.NOBODY IS PUNISHED.yesteday amit shah was allowed,this `was clearly a victory of vedic goondaism over rules of law.same is happening in case of babri masjid.
    judiciary is base of every system.
    now there is pil against 7 judges of supreme court for selling judgement.afzal guru was not provided with defence lawyer ,which is mandatory requirement of constitution.given death sentence.though high court released him rejecting cbi claims.he did not kill anybody why he should be hanged.
    whenever there is peace in kashmir hindutva agents in army and crpf kill innocent boys and elderly respected people,ignite the atmosphere.
    in june i met with same youth they were feeloing proud calling themselves indian.unnessary curfews and lie make situation worse.india was divided by lal,paland bal.before advent of hindutva rulers used to fight not people.

    hindutvas spirtual fascism and intellectual goondaism are the 2 gidnatic octopuses eating the very vitals of our society.muslims builted india from murshdibad to ahmadabad and from
    lahore to karnataka is proof of their dedcation to india and indians.why abuse them day and night.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ghandhi was the creation of britishers.to finish honest people like bose and bhagat singh.hindutva was` bump licker of british imperialists.he was after bania interest.he laid the foundation of hindu india instead of modern india.like china.near furure u will see lot of problems of mammoth scale.creamy layers of vedics are looting india and leaving .leaving us in abstract poverty including their own jatiwala.

    ram autar Reply:

    first major communal roit was organized by rss in which thousands were killed.
    please read

    first major communal roit was organized by rss in ahmadabad in 1969 in which thousands were killed nobody is punished so far.

  • shan

    @the moderator , can we not block the SPAMS like ram autar and tejinder , also HT will be losing a heck ofa lot of highly intelligent bloggers.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    WHY NOT BINOY HEGDE ALSO..

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    Is it the African criminal leaders (unfortunately or fortunately, based on ones view, mostly Muslim leaders!) who rape their land and people ? (that takes care of 700 million people..

    mr shan ,brothers of benoy has stolen india and robbed indian wealth took it to swiss bank a country where thousands are dying of hunger they have 1.5 trillion dollars in swiss account.

    RAM RAM JAPNA PARAYA MAAL APNA.

    capitalism is in root of corruption.african and latin americans are same.americans have gone to philipines to liberate them.but converted this god fearing nation into BROTHEL.u are attaching evil activities to a particaular religion.yes our liberal class is extremely corupt but urs.everyday there is scam indian.cwg 70000 crores is looted by pune based brhmn.but we dont say it is because of certain faith.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    NYT news on the recent bomb parcel scare here in US…

    “Both the bombs are considered the handi works of Hasan-al-Ansir, who was involved in the bombing material worn by the nigerian boy last septemnber, and the explosion that almost killed the Saudi prince last year. In the second incident, he filled the fissile material in the cavities of his brother”.

    How filthy one can be? Sodomizing ones own brother with bombing materials so he can explode… Give a break Rams!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    these terrorist organiztions are created by americans themselves.have no following among muslims.may this is work of cia,as elections are near.when u are killing innocents daily there will be some minor reaction.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ok Ram, the Muslim,. your people exploded a bomb in Istanbul today because the Turkish were not Muslim enough, they wear western outfits and not strict friday worshippers. The Muslim groups that did this said they do not like Turkeys modernism

    So what did America do there?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    there are 17 insurgencies going on in india also.pressure on turkey is from zoinists ,to allow kurdish oil pass from turkish soil.which they are refusing.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy suffers from Islamophobia. He is irrational ans a emotional cripple.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi

    Well, then, 70% of the world are cripples. People are worried about Muslims bombing their tarin and plane. Just last week, a prominent, quite liberal journalist here, Juan Williams, made a statement that he is afraid to board a plane in which there are people in Muslim outfits. The fear is near-universal, whether justified or not. You can call it anything you want — it is not going to stop until Muslims stop this explosion business anywhere and everywhere.

    Combine this with news like NYT had two days ago about the parcel bomber — this guy, one Al Hasan, I think of Pakistani origin, fills explosives in his brother’s cavities,a nd send him to explode..

    And you talk about why people are afraid of Msulims?

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    An exteremly tiny proportion of Muslims are creating mayhem. No one denies that.

    People are worried, partly because people like you are spreading irrational fear.

    Not once you have made a single attempt to look at what economic reasons may lie behind such radicalisation.

    I agree that a very strong religious vaneer has been grafted on reasonable grievences against US/Israel/ and dare I say India too.

    You have taken present roubles as an opprtunity to beat the Hndu drum or shall I say shake the temple tully.

    You are a Hindu Fundu

    ram autar Reply:

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    November 1st, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Ravi

    Well, then, 70% of the world are cripples. People are worried about Muslims bombing their

    binoy till americans go on killing innocent and hurt their own people things like this will.
    the man who bombed ohio and killed 180 americans was christian and victim of some war .

    now many people in the world wants third world war.this is the only way to finish zoinism and brhmnsm for ever.2 satanic forces behind all evils.
    they take america to war almost every year and finish their resources which should have gone to betterment of human being.
    hegde u are quoting few ineffective stray incidences to built case.
    zoinist and brhmnst are choosen people they both want others to die or live like slave.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ok ram, if 6 million jews and 3 million brahmins can control this whole world, either 1) they should be on the next level of evolution on Darwin’s scale or 2) the billion Arabs/Muslims, and the billion Christians, and the billion Chinese and the billion Indians totally incapable of progress on their own.

    I for one am grateful to Jewish people for their scientific discoveries. I am sure many of your relatives have been saved by the discoveries and inventions they made.

    for once, why dont you and your fellow Muslims get educated, learn a lot,a nd contribute to humanity. Helping others is not a bad thing. Learning is not bad. Teaching is not bad. What is bad is what you are doing

    ram autar Reply:

    How filthy one can be? Sodomizing ones own brother with bombing materials so he can explode… Give a break Rams

    u should worship him .ayyapan was the result sodomy.u are mad after him.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde , sodomising children is the norm in Afganistan , it is known as Baccha bazi.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    i hope u will avoid going there.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan,
    hegde is hiding under my table after every 5-10 minutes,he repeats 72 ,72 72 virgin.then 1603,1603.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan u are yestergy i have put one of them in jail.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    It has now become very clear. The ruling Aryans in Delhi are no more interested in the appalling 50% of the people living below the poverty line. They feel the poor are a burden and hence must be allowed to die.

    Here is a report by a Bania woman published in the country’s principal Brahmin daily, the Hindu (Sept.25, 2010). She was reporting on the meeting of the National Advisory Council, yet another eye-wash organisation in Delhi created by the Aryans to fool us, presided by Sonia Gandhi and attended by the top brass of the govt. The report said:

    Not even god can save them
    New Delhi: In a major setback to the National Advisory Council (NAD) and the Right to Food Campaign, the Planning Commission and the government made it clear on Friday that it would be difficult to provide legal guarantees as far as food security for those living above the poverty line (APL) was concerned. Nor would it be possible to guarantee the slew of additional entitlements that the NAC has envisaged for the most disadvantaged.

    In short, they said the right to food security for all citizens was impossible.

    No other paper reported this because “BPL people” anyway cannot read. They are remembered only on election-eve for their votes which can be simply purchased. Not even the god can save them.

    Supreme Court snubbed: When the “national” toilet papers reported that the country’s food godowns were overfull, bursting and the grains were being eaten by the rodents and birds, the Supreme Court (SC) ordered that the rotting grains at least could be distributed free to the starving millions.

    But the devotees of Ram Lalla led by the “Khatri Sick” PM hit back at the SC and asked it to shut up.

    Their job is to die: According to the Hindu report India’s BPL population stood at 50% which amounts to a shocking 650 million.

    The Aryans have been rulers of India by the grace of their god Ram Lalla.

    It is this BPL people who helped the rulers to demolish the Babri Masjid. Their job is over. Now their next job is to do and die and never question where and why.

    ——————————————————————————–

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    Poor L.K. Advani, the Sindhi Khatri, who did so much and also suffered so much to keep the Bhoodevatas in power, is today the most hated man in the Brahmana Jati Party (BJP). It was he who led the rowdies brigade to destroy the Babri Masjid.

    But today there is none with him. The country’s principal Brahmin paper, the Hindu (Sept.26, 2010) says it in the headlined itself: “Advani sidelined in Ram temple issue”.

    Gandhi killed: Did not the same Bhoodevatas exploit the Gujarati Bania to the fullest extent and the moment India got “independence” and he helped install a Brahmin as the first PM, he was shot dead by a Brahmin only? (Why Godse Killed Gandhi?, DSA-1997). And his tribe distributed sweets all over India.

    We have said this many times. Never pour milk to the serpent. Kill it. The moment you see it. Those who do not listen to this advice will go the Advani way. His own creation, Modi, has also betrayed him.

    But will Advani have the courage to go against BJP and fight the serpents? Never

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    LK Advani or no LK Advani, Modi or no Modi, there will not be Muslim riots in India anymore.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    How do you know

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Well, I do not know for sure. But one can always read the tea leaves, one can always sense the direction of the wind. It will be good for Muslims if they do not over play their hands thinking that their vote bank masters will support them on anything and everything. Those days are gone. Simply gone. Now, they better be an “equal” citizen of India – not lesser, not greater than his majority counterparts. Stop whining ad asking for giveaways all the time. Be a producing citizen. Government should make sure they have access to education; I do not have an issue with that. But this wholescale giveaways will have to stop.

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh

    How would you react to the fact that VIOLENCE, in the shape of RIOTS is RSS’s preferred tactict because it solidifies Hindu Vote for BJP its political wing.

    That was the role of the Ayodhya movement, riots in Ahemdabad, etc.

    So my friend, vote bank politics works both ways, not just one.

    By saying this I do not support Vote Bank politics, but just to balance your one sided view of the world.

    ram autar Reply:

    people of parivar talks of peace,what i see nothing but voilence.demolition of babri mosque is the latest and the longest feather in their cap.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Binoy, Gopi
    If you think, hinduism bashers have to be from Pak, think again. This is a journal, which comes from Mangalore. Of course, there are “secular” headlines like how Ayodhya verdict whither Indian constitution, Arundhati Roy’s speech, Kashmir police atrocities and “interview of PFI leader”. But the thing which puzzled me was, when they address the topic of chopping of Kerala lecturer hand, not a single time they condemn the act, instead repeating how he hurt one community’s feeling. http://newfrontworld.com/2010/09/11/kerala-churches-united-against-blasphemous-professor-t-j-joseph/
    It also refuses to believe people from Kerala are trained in Kashmir http://newfrontworld.com/2010/10/22/keralites-killed-in-kashmir-two-identified-two-not-yet/
    Reading their news I felt, next we might hear of some Mangalorean boys getting involved with “Kashmir freedom movement”.

    @Ram Autar,

    “mr vinay i am not against brhmns or hindu religion.”

    Nor I have any enmity over Aurangzeb. He was a poor chap, who existed when psychiatric treatment was not available. If it was, his brothers would have lived longer, his father and son (son’s imprisonment was the gyan from you) would not have to live in prison. I would totally agree, Hindus were not the worse affected in his rule. It was his kith and kin, who were tortured more.

    But, calling him a hero? His secularism and that Varanasi Temple Rajput story, can you please have a look? http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/kashivishvanath.html

    As far your information “when he died,his personal income by stitching caps was given to hindus, while income through writing quran was distributed to muslim subject.”
    Can you please have look at this article written by a Pakistani http://secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/the-myth-of-history/ (about myth 4)

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay , went to the pakistani myth busting website. The whole world knows what is true , but what it exposes is that pakistan is a banana republic , certainly not a free country. Also this what happens to all societies where the indigenous culture is sacrificed at the altar of SUBMISSION (read Islam). If you are interested I suggest two books by V.S Naipaul which beautifully captures this sad predicament or schizophrenia as he likes to call it. The books are BEYOND BELEIF , and AMONGST THE BELEIVERS. Now before anyone stupidly labels naipaul as islamophobe , please keep in mind his current wife (thirty years younger) is a PAKISTANI MUSLIM.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    naipaul after writing all non-ense converted to izlam and married to a pakistani women.he hardly lived in india.hardly knows anything about internal dynamic of our society.he is good for arm chair politicians.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Binoy, Gopi
    If you think, hinduism bashers have to be from Pak, think again. This is a journal, which comes from Mangalore. Of course, there are “secular” headlines like how Ayodhya verdict whither Indian constitution, Arundhati Roy’s speech, Kashmir police atrocities and “interview of PFI leader”. But the thing which puzzled me was, when they address the topic of chopping of Kerala lecturer hand, not a single time they condemn the act, instead repeating how he hurt one community’s feeling. http://newfrontworld.com/2010/09/11/kerala-churches-united-against-blasphemous-professor-t-j-joseph/
    It also refuses to believe people from Kerala are trained in Kashmir http://newfrontworld.com/2010/10/22/keralites-killed-in-kashmir-two-identified-two-not-yet/
    Reading their news I felt, next we might hear of some Mangalorean boys getting involved with “Kashmir freedom movement”.

    @Ram Autar,

    “mr vinay i am not against brhmns or hindu religion.”

    Nor I have any enmity over Aurangzeb. He was a poor chap, who existed when psychiatric treatment were not available. If it was, his brothers would have lived longer, his father and son (son’s imprisonment was the gyan from you) would not have to live in prison. I would totally agree, Hindus were not the worse affected in his rule. It was his kith and kin, who were tortured more.

    But, calling him a hero? His secularism and that Varanasi Temple Rajput story, can you please have a look? http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/kashivishvanath.html

    As far your information “when he died,his personal income by stitching caps was given to hindus, while income through writing quran was distributed to muslim subject.” Can you please have look at this article written by a Pakistani? http://secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/the-myth-of-history/ (about myth 4)

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @vinay

    You will hear that Mangalorean Muslim boys were arrested for attending LeT Training camps in Pakistan and participating in “kashmir Freedom Struggle”. And those boys will be the sons of the rich Mangalorean merchants, most probably educated in St Aloysius..

    Some extremists here have started anonymous write ins for a Muslim country stretching from Malappuram to Managalore.

    But really, this is not a laughing matter. It has not hit the national news, so Arundhati may not visit. (by the way tourist operators in kumarakaom are making tonnes of money by taking foreign tourists (and Indian tourists) for boat ride and showing the landmarks like Aymanam in her book- there are special tours “Arundhati Roys small things”).

    After T Nazeer was arrested and extradicted from Bengla Desh, several Muslim boys from Kannur were arrested for attending LeT training and fighting in Kashmir. So far, seven Malayali Muslim boys have died in fighting with the Indian army in Kashmir.

    A group of Muslims is determined to kill moderates (India Union Muslim league) because they are not pure enough. With the investigation into the professor’s hand-chopping incident, it was revealed there are three talibanic courts in kerala that dispenses “Islamic Justice”.

    This Kerala Muslim turnaround (I think it is still a minority, nevertheless a big minority) indicates the Muslim extremism, suicide bombing etc does not ahve anything to do with education, economic well-being etc and everything to do with the extremist teachings of Islam. The richest people in Kannur are Muslims, the commercial buildings in the city are all owned by them, Kerala Muslims are far better educated than their counterparts in other states, Muslims run several good hospitals and colleges…

    Marxists and Congress kept some distance away from PFI/SDPI/POP after the chopping incident. They made the right statements. However, as panchayat and municipality election campaign started, they started diluting “we will take anybodys votes’.

    Kerala will become a Kashmir if actions are not taken now. But M Ramachandran, Dy Home Minister, instead of arresting and eradicating, is in the state constantly preaching “not all Muslims are terrorists”..without Muslim vote Congress will never win here.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    But, calling him a hero? His secularism and that Varanasi Temple Rajput story, can you please have

    vinay there is lot of shit spreaded in history by britishers and rss historians.which is based on
    half truth and absolute lie.aurangzeb was one of the greatest ruler history has ever produced.
    only bad part is ,he lived longer.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    so ram

    he did not kill his brothers, his son — killing his son becaiuse he was afraid his son will takeover the kingdom… he did not imprison his father…

    let us ignore all these…. in your opinion it looks like he is the greatest ruler history has ever produced..Can u list his accomplishments considering all otehr kings all over teh world?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ashok killed his 99 brothers.as per geeta lord krishna ordered arjun to kill all his cousins and uncles.in western u.p.after death of one rana ,his 37 sons and 27 wives were forced to commit sati.
    ram(RAM AUTAR)helped hanuman to kill his brother bali.this is system.europe is full of these instances.see rahul and varun.this is system

    ram autar Reply:

    ..Can u list his accomplishments considering all otehr kings all over teh world?

    ONLY IN TIME OF AURANGZEB INDIAN ECONOMY EXCEEDED CHINESE ECONOMY.HE MADE INDIA ECONOMIC SUPER POWER .IN HIS PERIOD BRITISHERS CALLED INDIA
    SONE KE CHIDIYA.OUR GDP WAS 24.5%OF WORLD.WHEN BRITISHERS LEFT INDIA IT WAS 1.5%.ALL his life he fought for unity and integrity of india.]

  • Vinay

    @Gopi, Mirza,

    You keep re-iterating, revival of Islam has to start and it has to start in India. I feel, it would start from the same land where our civilization started..”Pakistan”. Just look at some of the posts in the above site (secular pakistan) and Pak tea house.

    http://saynotothestatereligion.blogspot.com/2008/08/support-campaign-for-amendment-in.html A petition in secular Pakistan, where around 250 people have signed saying no for state religion. May not be a big number, but certainly shows signs of middle class trying to take control over state from mullahs.

    I am just picking some bits from this article. Please go through the entire article. http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/where-i-disagree-with-some-prominent-liberals-of-our-time/

    “..One position which I have often found as somewhat of an anomaly is the stance of some western liberals on the war in Afghanistan. Their stance does not stop at opposing the war but stretches to paint Taliban as some kind of “victim” . A raving liberal from the other side of the border, aka Miss Roy, also has the tendency to view Taliban in some glorified “robin hood” kind of a way. Likewise prominent liberals/left wingers like Tariq Ali and Noam Chomsky in their zeal to criticize USA for its imperial designs often cross the line and end up sounding as supportive of Taliban in a twisted way..”

    “…I think a major problem is the excessive usage and in fact abuse of the concept of self introspection. Self introspection is a great virtue but it should not come at the cost of credibility. People like Arundhati Roy, Tariq Ali and Noam Chomsky in their zeal to show hypocrisy in their own societies do end up becoming less credible and even counterproductive…”

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Binoy Hegde, and gopi and vinay and specially Bobby.
    This is a cut and paste from New york Times
    It is important that all our Japanese neighbors and all our partners understand that talking with Russia from a threatening position is pointless,” Mr. Margelov told the Interfax news service. “Our stance cannot be changed by pressure. I am sincerely hoping that wisdom will return to Japanese political practices
    This is what is needed in indian political class two pieces of good size dangly bits secreting good amount of androgen. Wimps dont count in this world.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    DEAR SHAN,

    Will the current explosion in Kashmir ultimately lead India to another war with China? Reports say ruling “Jews of India” have been asked by the Jews to widen the conflagration so that China, which is already in the “Pak-occupied Kashmir”, is provoked to intervene through Pakistan. India may then seek US support.

    The staple food of the Jews and “Jews of India” has been war and violence to establish world domination. Having been defeated in their experiment in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are now trying to shift the scene to Asia and confront China with the help of the “Jews of India”.

    Our sources say if there is such a direct confrontation between US and China it will lead to World War-III with Russia, Iran and the entire Muslim world. Dangerous days are ahead.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    Here comes another terrorist /deeply disturbing item…

    Under the RTI act, Aligarh Muslim University has disclosed the Pakistani journalist visit/Al Queda atcivity in the campus and other disturbing items.

    I hope it is not true.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    What about RSS shakha’s in almost every univerity in Northern India

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    are u equating RSS to Al Queda?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde ,
    rss is party of gangesters murderers hawala dealers ,duplicate medicine manufacturers,
    wife swappers,infant burners,bomb plantersand financial thieves.scam operators mosque breaakers.
    rss is biggest and oldest terroristorganization of india.they are also biggest liar and fascist.alqaeda is bad too.but this family war between family of bush and bin laden.

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes I am, there are more similarities in them than are differences.

    Both are fundamentalist organisations which use violence as a means to their ends.

    Perhaps the sacle of their reach is different.

    ram autar Reply:

    binoy lie is the staple food of brhmns.if u are sure why not ,file PIL in the court.

    THAT IS WHY RSS IS CALLED RUMOUR SPREADING SOCIETY.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram, muslim terrorist from pakistan–

    I have not read the report. However, there is a 87 page report, released just recently, at teh request of Mohamed Chaman, a former Aligarh Muslim university “court member”.
    The report was discussed between Arjun Singh the HRD minisster at that time and Azzez , the VC. Azzez expressed the presence of dangerous elements on the campus. A further investigation was done by Raghubir Lal, the chief of police for Aligarh in 2007.

    Again, I hope it was a fear; pakistani journalist was justa journalist and not an al queda emissary. I hope somebody in India get hold of thsi report and publish its contents.

    I hope it is not true that students there had Al Queda connection, for if it is true, blood will flow, nothing will stop it., .

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde bhai vc azeez is involve in financial corruption of university fund.there is movement against.this happens everywhere in india.law will take its corse.why u are worried.al qaeda has no following among muslims.it exists only in american media to hide their evil acts.

    ram autar Reply:

    ram, muslim terrorist from pakistan–hegde ram ka nam badnam mat karo i am pure indian.bhoodevtas came from outside

    ram autar Reply:

    However, there is a 87 page report,

    hegde u should believe on our police and judicial system.truth will come out.this is how one police inspector(daya nayek)of mumbai made 3000 crores.killed 125 innocents.robbed the entire locality.amit shah was ashamed to know this,he took only 5 crores to kill a family and a hindu.

    ram autar Reply:

    India’s principal Brahminical daily, reported all the anti-Muslim terrorist cases: Mecca Masjid (Hyderabad, May 18, 2007), Ajmer, (Oct.1, 2007), Malegaon (Maharashtra-Sept.18, 2006); Madasa (Gujarat and the one in Goa.

    Super RSS named: All these cases are with the police, but completely controlled by the Intelligence Bureau. In all these cases the police have named the culprit, the Brahminical super RSS, Abhinav Bharat.

    There are many more cases but the Brahminist power controlling the police and the Govt. — nay the country itself — are trying to suppress everything. The Times earlier (June 23, 2010) listed the following 11 cases of Hindu terrorism and also said all these are linked to Abhinav Bharat.

    Oct.16, 2009: A bomb went of in Margao, Goa, while it was being transported to target site killing two persons carrying the bomb. NIA charge-sheeted 11 people, members of the Hindu right wing group, Sanatan Sanstha.

    April 4, 2009: A bomb planted in a Beed mosque went off. Ashok Lande (21), Mayur Lande (20) and Tulsidas (Lande 17), arrested for making and planting bomb.

    Sept.29, 2008: RDX bomb blast in Malegaon. Six killed, 101 injured. Eleven members of Abhinav Bharat and Vande Mataram Jan Kalyan Samiti arrested.

    Aug.24, 2008: Two Bajrang Dal members, Rajiv alias Piyush Mishra and Bhupinder Singh, killed inside a hostel room while making a bomb in Kanpur, UP.

    March 2008: A bomb went off at a Panvel cinema. Six persons, two of then Sanatan Sanstha members, arrested.

    June 4, 2008: Six persons, two of them Sanatan sanstha members, arrested for planting a bomb at Thane’s Gadkari Rangayatan.

    Oct.11, 2007: Blast at Ajmer shrine. Three killed.

    May 18, 2007: Mecca Masjid blast in Hyderabad. Nine killed, more than 58 injured. Two RSS members arrested.

    2006: Dr. Hemant Chalke and Mangesh Nikam involved in Ratnagiri blast.

    Aug.2004: Two Bajrang Dal members threw a bomb at Jalna’s Qadriya mosque during Friday prayers. Four Bajrang Dal members arrested.

    Aug.27, 2004: Bomb blast at Porna’s Madrassa Meraj-ul-Uloom. Four Bajrang Dal members were arrested.

    It is very difficult to get at the truth in India — that too when Brahminists are the perpetrators of the crime.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Kashmiri Muslims fighting for Azadi were all Brahmins (Pundits) till recently but they revolted against this violent cult and sought liberation under Islam. The Brahminists who usurped the Delhi throne through a deep-rooted conspiracy of the Jews and “Jews of India” with the help of the cunning Gujarati Bania, M.K. Gandhi, have launched a reign of terror on every section of the Indian society

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    So Ram

    I do not understand you. Are you saying that the Muslims in Kashmir are the same Brahmins you hate?? Or you are saying some Brahmins revolted against other Brahmins and became Muslims? And so they are no more evil Brahmins?

    What drink you take normally? Scotch, beer, wine, something else? May be the world will be better of if everybody drinks that coolaid..

    God bless you! Oh, I mean nothing but Allah (NOTHING BUT ALLAH –how can it be, have u ever thought, u moron, stupid, low IQ pakistani), most probably called Mujahir and never belonging to the wreteched place)

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    hegde i dont hate brhmns i hate brhmns ..brhmnsm is also enemy of brhmns.
    like alqaueda has hurted muslims most.brhmnsm is evil thought like zoinism.brhmns like
    jews are hard working intelligent people.

  • ram autar

    Brahminists don’t love India: There will never be peace in India as long as Kashmir continues to boil. With Indian army committed to Kashmir, it will be a drag on the Indian economy. Nothing grows in Kashmir except apples. It is more a liability. China has already taken over the development of Azad Kashmir. Impoverished India with its rag-tag army will have no courage to face the nuclear-armed Pakistan supported by both China and also USA. The only reason the rulers are holding on to Kashmir at the cost of the country is to rouse the ‘majority Hindus” against “minority” Muslims. But in the process the Brahminists are only destroying India. But “whose father’s what goes?” Brahminists have already said they don’t belong to India and hence don’t love India. As the Bahujans have been mentally crushed and made voiceless, the rulers may temporarily ride the waves with the Kalmadis looting the crores. But how long this can continue?

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Reagrding the RTI report/ Al Queda presence in AMU

    This wil be a huge blow and drag on Indian Muslims if true and if the media picks and runs with it.

    This will put Deobandi School in a bad spot, because they never condemed Al Queda until eight years afre 9/11, giving an implicit approval to Al Queda activities.

    No amount of criticism on RSS is going to help Muslims here. And neither the statement that it is only a few Muslims, and the majority are peace-loving. That Aligarh Muslim University directly or indirectly influenced the forming of Al Queda cell is going to be viewed quite seriously by all Indian citizens, including a majority of Muslims. It will be better if Muslims do not try to rationalize or “why not” this, for, it will backfire on them badly. Nobody will come to the rescue or sugar coating. Muslims will be blamed, rightfully so, that they have not come strong against the worldwide Muslim terrorism, and that is one reason for this Aligarh situation.

    I hope people stay calm until all the details become available, and do not jump into any violence. Ayodhya verdict showed the good side of our populace. If the news is true, let us hope people do not turn violent, but make sure that the right info gathering mechanisms are prevalent in predominantly Muslim campuses to ensure outfits like Al Queda and LeT do not operate. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    after enquiry these news are usually found wrong.written by some hindutva good relayed by zoinist media.
    ayodhya verdict ,like release of amit shah is victory of vedic goondaism over rules of law.alqaeda or let has no support among muslims.ayodhya was built by nawabs of lucknow.ramlila was started by nawab wajid ali shah.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    this fraud is manufactured by brhmnst media to deflect the attention from recent pressure on rss terrorists.the news is alie.this is called brhmncl mediacracy.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @L Mirza , all it needs to stop this inevitable marginilisation of islam from the commity of civilized nations , is some one to stand up and be counted. First of all it need to be unequivocally stated ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE , IT HAS IN ITS CREED BUILT IN IDEALS THAT GLORIFY VIOLENCE. Second it has nothing great or uniqueness about it. It has some good aspect and LOADS OF UTTER **** again like anyother religion. A word or two about the current trend of wearing or rather covering head with religion. Two patient I recently came across both in their teens , both hizabised(wearing hizab). One Bangladeshi, other gujrati . One was a UNMARRIED SINGLE MOTHER , lives with mother , the other though wearing hizab had attributes which is very fashionable with white girls.(I cannot elaborate , suffice it to say you wouldn’t expect that in someone with hizab.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE , IT HAS IN ITS CREED BUILT IN IDEALS THAT GLORIFY VIOLENCE

    this is absolutely non sense and wrong.talibans are freedom fighters.it is not, americans but pakistanis who are killing and beating them most.whatever succes americansgot on on war on
    terrorism ,is because of pakistan.afghans are are fighting war of liberation.
    alqueda i could not understand.as i am alfaeda.but now their ranks are increasing as they are getting more and recruits from christian world.victims of brute capitalism

    shan ifirst t world war was not started by muslims.second world was financed by jewish capitalist
    red ctober bolshevic revolution was finaced and planned in new york.what a joke ,a proleteriat
    revolution financed by capitalist.the same commys finished this system,when jews were required to work small jobs in israel.

    25 million women were not mascared by muslims.billion women were not burnt in the name of sati by muslims.
    no afghan was in 9/11 plane why uthey killed their 2 million people.yes people of that area are involve in terrorist activities.but reason is unemployment not our holy book.
    neither our books are war story nor our gods keeps deadly weapons.nor they come in this world for ethenic cleansing.parusram came to kill all khatris of world.that is why kerala is called
    parusram shruti.zoinists propaganda will misguide u.
    sister in law of zoinists murderer TONY BLAIR.converted to islam recently.3 europen christian jounralist imprisoned by taliban for 4 month ,later converted and became their spokesma.

    voilence is because of occupation not religion.alliance of pakistan iran and india will create 2-3crores more jobs and prosperity in region.

    but problem is Calcutta upper castes (Brahmins, Kayasths and Baidyas) from East Bengal hate others literature. They like Ghosh, Bose, Mitra, Sanyal, Guha etc. Behind that periphery they do not think that there are any persons with literary acumen. Marxism has made them all the more elitist and all-knowing. Even today they believe that only “class struggle” led by communists would be able to cleanse the society. They don’t like discussions on caste or Brahminism.or better distribution of wealth.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    ram, mulsim, pakistani, low iq, jehadi, (I am sorry)

    What the fr… are you talking? How can one billion women die in Sati?

    If your religion is religion of peace, that is news… Who is self exploding these days? In Manhattan ( a son of a Pakistani Air MNMarshal — not a poor kid), the 9/11 bouys (rich Saudis), the Qureshi boy (from oxford) who beheaded Pearl,, the several Pakistani engineers (and one doctor) who are arrested here, your own OSama Bin Laden — all tehse are poor people? In fact, it is not the poor Muslims, it is the rich uslims who do this and who mislead the poor .

    Who are behing exploding in Shia mosques, and Ahamadiya mosques,a nd Barelvi mosques, and Christian chirche in pakistan?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy Hindy Terrorist Fundo, half naked junju wearing vermin.

    Here is what RAND CPRPORATION’s OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS says.

    The Hindu-Muslim Divide

    A defining element of Indian politics since independence has been a commitment to secularism. That commitment is now at risk from an aggressive brand of Hindu nationalism that equates Indian national identity with Hindu religious identity. The country’s radical nationalists view the secular political system as a threat to Hindu identity, largely because of the power it offers India’s 140 million Muslims. Weakening, or even abolishing, the secular state has therefore become part of the radical-nationalist agenda. This may force Indian Muslims—traditionally moderate and supportive of the secular state, even on the sensitive matter of Kashmir—to shift their allegiance from the state to some sort of larger international Islamic movement, as many Muslims have done in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore. Such a radicalization of religious identities is a matter of serious concern in a nation of a billion people that possesses the world’s seventh largest nuclear arsenal and has had troubled relations with its populous and nuclear-armed Muslim neighbor, Pakistan.

    Radical Hindu nationalism is already a dominant force in mainstream Indian politics. A Hindu nationalist party, the BJP, has led the country’s coalition government for five years, and extremist Hindu organizations with explicitly anti-Muslim sentiments have heavily influenced the party’s agenda. Strife between Hindus and Muslims has been the predictable result. Last year a group of Muslims burned a train full of nationalist Hindus in the state of Gujarat; the attack killed fifty-eight people and led to Hindu reprisals that killed about 2,000 Muslims. An Indian tribunal investigating the massacres found that Hindu nationalist groups had methodically targeted Muslim homes and shops. It even charged that one important group, the VHP, had recruited and trained militants for the violence, and had provided them with computer printouts of names and addresses. Local and national security forces failed to respond adequately to the crisis as it unfolded: initially the state police did not intervene, and the central government only belatedly sent troops to Gujarat to restore order. Although thousands of extremist Hindus were involved in the violence, few were arrested. On the whole, the Gujarat episode has left Indian Muslims feeling neglected by the government.

    The radicalization of India’s Hindus and Muslims poses obvious domestic-security challenges. According to recent reports, Muslim militants based in Kashmir have been working with Pakistani groups to target the VHP and other groups in retaliation for the massacre in Gujarat. Militant Hindu groups have vowed to destroy Muslim mosques throughout India, and to build temples in their place.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy the Safron Terrorist.

    Here is some more home truths for you to digest.

    Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh

    The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) have been classified as a religiously inspired terrorist group by the Terrorism Research Centre and the Rand Corporation.[11][12] The Rand Corporation wrote:[12]

    “ The Rashtria Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in India, an ultra-Hindu nationalist movement, is one such organization. It has all the characteristics of a NRM. It espouses a strong and militant religious philosophy based on exclusivity and hate. After the assassination of Gandhi in 1948, the movement was banned for a few years by the Indian government because of its acts of violence and terrorism and its exhortation to followers to resort to terrorist methods in the promulgation of its religious ideas. ”

    Christian Solidarity Worldwide wrote in written evidence to the British Parliament:[13]

    “ The activities of the militant “Sangh Parivar” groups in promulgating a “Hindutva”, or Hindu nationalist, agenda, are of particular concern to the Christian community in India. These Sangh Parivar groups, of which the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and its daughter organisations are the largest, are responsible either directly, or through incitement, for a considerable number of attacks on Christian targets.
    There has been increasing international awareness of the nature of the activities of the RSS, particularly within the USA. The US-based Terrorist Research Center recently labelled the RSS as a hate group, while a document entitled “Exploring Religious Conflict”, published by US-based think-tank, the RAND Corporation in August 2005, categorised the RSS as a “New Religious Movement”, affirming that, “[i]t espouses a strong and militant religious philosophy based on exclusivity and hate”. During the recent hearing of the Subcommittee on Africa, Global Human Rights and International Operations in the US Congress, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the religious and cultural wing of the RSS, was singled out for vilification. Its militant wing, the Bajrang Dal, has been responsible for perpetrating many of the violent attacks on religious minorities.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Mr Ravi

    You may be Ram, You may be RAvi, and you may be a Muslim like Ram..whoeber you are..it is simply obnoxious to state that I am a hindoo funda etc based on what I have stated.. What I have stated is truth..that the Vice MArsjal’s son trie dto explode a bomb in MAnhattan..thats everal PAkistanis were arrested for terrorist activities.. that 19 rich Saudi Muslims did the 9/11. That Pakistani Msulims are self exploding in Ahnadiyya, Shia, Berelvi , Sufi mosques. That Msiulims are exploding in train stations, planes..That just two days ago they tried to send crude bombs through Fedex, UPS, and United Emiartes airlines .. That Al-Hasan, one of the Al Queda Pakistanis , put fissile materials in teh acvities of his brother to explode in front of a prince of Saudi Arabia ,a nd the prince escaped and the brother died.

    Muslims are leading in worldwide terrorism, I am justs tating that.. Am i lying?

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    I see that name calling hurts you. Let me say it again. You are a Hindu FUNDO, and a semi naked JunJu wearing Vermin. You are a dim wit.

    There are four reasons for that:

    1. You are the one who does not pay any attention to any arguments put forward by any one. You call any one who offers an alternative view, Muslims, or Taliban or whatever comes to your mind. Two can play this game. You cease calling names and so will I.

    2. I have said not once but many times that there is currently a phase where radicla Muslim youths have become violent. But this has to be looked into in the context of Iraq and Afghanistan war, as well as the Palestine issue. Additionally a resurgence of Salafi/Wahabi movements in Islam are targeting youths. Ahmedi/Shia/Sunni conflict is nothing new, it has been going on for centuries. Just like historical conflicts between various Hindu secyts.

    3. You never ever acknowledge, what is as celar as the nose on your face, that RSS is a terrorist organisation and RIOTING is its preferred weapon. Please read Rand Corporation’s analysis. This analysis is carried out by other Hindu’s.

    4. Indian Muslims are different, they are loyal Indians and that is what bothers RSS. RSS wants Indian Muslims to be loyal to Pakistan or even to Umma. That will help BJP consolidate Hindu votebank behind itslef. Sadly, for RSS a majority of Indians know it to be a fascist organisation and do not vote for it.

    So stop bundling moderate and loyal Indian Muslims in the same bracket as Taliban and or Al Qiada. They are not like them. They are like you and I.

    Bobby Reply:

    well said Ravi. Totally agree.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Mr Ravi/Ram Muslim Pakistani in an adopted Indian name!

    I will go from 4 to 1

    4) Indian Muslims are different…That is what US used to say — Muslims here are integrated, unlike in US; second generation is like anys econd generation – Irish American, PolishAmerican etc.. Now in the wave of Pakistani Muslim attacks, like Zhaizad and Al Awlaki , and Major Husain, they are reassessing that opinion. While a majority of Iindian Muslims are peace loving, the minority that hates India is quite large, and those are the ones who go to LeT to get training to plant bombs and collude with terrorists. Moderate Muslims, instead of criticizing and distancing, start teh ususal whining, oh that is because they do not have education, they are poor…Indian Muslims are not from MArs so they do not have Umma! My foo….!

    3) You yourself said RSS is nowhere near AL Queda. We are not talking about a riot here or there, we are talking about a brother filling missile material in his brother’s cavities and having him explode. We are taking about worldwide terrorist bombing plots. We are talking about 11/26. I am not aware of an RSS guy exploding in UK or USA or Europe or in a plane. I am nota ware of an RSS guy ramming a plane into a building and killing 3000 people. I am not aware of an RSS guy exploding in mosques like PAkistanis do every day in Shia, Sufi, Berelvi, Ahamadiya mosques. No RSS man ever says death to Muslims! Your romantic jehadis tape their message before they do the sacred Quranic (ya, now all will say Quran does not preach violence) verse and pledge to get rid the world of kafirs.

    2) So, this is just a phase! That is a pound of horsemeat! When will the phase end? As I asked why should the engineer son of a doctor couple in Bangalore travel to Scotland and explode in Glasgow airport because of Iraq war? I do not like Iraq war either. Why should it be an issue of Muslims in India or anywhere other than Iraquis? If theer is a Palestinian issue, PAlestinins should attack Israel, not Indian Muslims nor Pakistani Muslims.

    So, the Shia /Ahmadiya etc killing is just like killings among Hindu sects? I am 40 years old; I have not seen any killing among Hindu sects or Christian sects or Budhist sects or any other sectss on a regular daily/monthly basis like I see this one. The Human right activists collect money and aid for Sudan/Darfur – where the fair Muslim is killing the negro Muslim in an industrial scale. if Salafi/Wahabis are bad, which they are bd, why Muslims everywhere take their money to build Wahabi style mosques? 90% of new mosques (and there are so many) in Dakshin Canara are all Wahabi money, done in Saudi style.

    Do not blame others for their fear and loathe If the moderates (I read somewhere that there is nothing called moderate Muslim , that it cannot be — that you are a Muslim or you are not.. ) believe, like you believe in (2) that it is just a phase, and do not make any attempt to marginalize them or cease the mantle away from them. Even people like ZIa, instead of criticizing these jehadis, find fault with the people who are scarred of these people. I have friends who do not do any air travel now because of the fear.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Binoy,
    I must appreciate your persistence to engage with these people. One says, whether there was a temple in Ayodhya is disputable after court accepts the existence of the temple. He even fears India will turn into Afghanistan with the current attitude. Another, first compared RSS to LeT now to Al-Qaida. Well, the Congress party prince (which he supports) equates RSS with SIMI. The third one believes Aurangzeb was a pious secular king who ran the whole country peacefully by stitching caps. I don’t find any practical route to argue with these mega dreamers.

    Good luck,

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    (4) above…integrted here, unlike in “UK”…not US

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You Hindu Fundo, You JunJu wearing Half Naked made up Vermin.

    This personal abuse is because you are still stiking to calling names, to people who offer alternative points of view. As I said, two can play this game.

    You made some points at least, even if they are reactionary twadle.

    As I said, next time you write do not list attrocitioes committed by Muslims, we all know those. Offer some reasons, even if those reasons are based around Religious Ideology.

    Al Qaeda, was formede in order to get rid of USA from Saudi Arabia. Its activities, plane crashing, etc is because of US foriegn policy where it has all but totally corrupted the Saudi Royal Family. For nothing more and nohing less than O I L. US is securing its gas guzzling economy in the long run by preserving its own oil reserves while buying cheaply Saudi oil, etc.

    I guess that is difficult for a mind so full of Hindu Fundo inspired hatred such as yours to undertstand.

    So once again think……Islam is 100’s of years old. US foriegn policy in the Middle East both in relation to OIL, and Palestine is comparatively more recent.

    I will take a bet with you that Radical Violent Muslims in US is less than a 100 and in India it is even smaller.

    However RSS is in every Northern Town.

    You are a reactionary twerp.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi/Ram/Muslim/Pakistani in disguise who are authors of ISlamabadGlobe blog.

    I clearly said I am bewildered by the Msulim atrocities. I cannot offer a reason., because I cannot think of any reason why a boy from Banaglore will go and explod in glasgow, why a rich engineer, son of an Air vice Marshal will want to explode in Manhattan etc.. I cannot imagine a reason.

    I do not know how Al Queda was created. What I know is they are spreading violence everywhere, including in India. Kashmir is one of their causes. They are recruiting and killing youngsters. They are killing innocents copting legitimate or illegitimate problems of Muslims in distant lands. Their latest act was sending bombs in three planes just two days ago. The mastermind, it is reported , is one Al-HAsan, a Pakistani Muslim, who filled the cavities of his own brother with fissile materials in an attempt to kill a Saudi prince Nijaf; but instread ogf killing the prince, the boy exploded and died.

    The number of radical Muslims — I do not know. What i know is that they are there, be it sleeper cells, or waiting for the opportune moment. Osama Bin Laden said “You have watch, we have time”. He is right.

    I wonder where you got the count that the radical Msulim count is less than 100. If so, they must be the most potent force in the world, taking the richest and strongest country (along with many other countries) draining their vast resources on them.

  • tajender

    benoy………Muslims are leading in worldwide terrorism, I am justs tating that.. Am i lying

    why this is happening only after american occupation.if u will kill my dog i will kill ur cat.why u are not sensitive to people of iraq.where they have killed 2.3 million children by imposing ban on medicine.
    only one city fallujah was presented with more nuclear tnt than nagasaki.destruction of 2 complete countries does nt hurt u..only small&ineffective bombs are haunting u so much.i know th reason because u are satanic brother.
    trueman ,a first zoinist president of usa started dancing on table when his secretary informed him about succes in destruction of hiroshma and nagaszki.

    moreovr tips about this also came from ex-alqaida member.
    there are good and bad everywhere.
    hindus are caufgt in financian scam everyday,does not mean that all hindus are thieves.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Of course Tejinder, Iraquis have suffered a lot. US should not have attacked; but in the 9/11 mood no US President would have sat idle without attacking all possible sources from where a new attack would come. A US President, unllike other nation’s leaders, is first and foremost responsible and held accountable for its people ssecurity from external threat.

    I do not have any issue in Iraquis taking arms, resorting to violence. It is legitimate, it is expected, it is natural human reaction.

    Yes Hindus are caught in finnacial scam. So also Muslims, jews, Christians (may not be Budhists). But this thread of violence, exploding oneself somewhere else for somebody’s cause seems to be, in present times, a Muslim trait. You catch a rich Nigerian Muslim boy bringing bomb powder in his underwerar. A rich PAkistani Muslim boy (whose father is Air Vice Marshal of Pakistan) who is an MBA from US and “living the american life” decides to bomb Manhattan….

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr hegde iraq was not involve in 9/11 there was no cell of alqaida in iraq.no iraqi has ever threw even a pebble towards america.why they attacked a peaceful country.what right they had to kill them.
    750 top intectuals of america has issued signed letter confirming that 9/11 was inside job.
    this was perpetuated to sell iraq war to americans.oil companies were involve in this.all religions came to help humanity except zoinism and brhmnsm who came to control and enslave the world.
    all their science and technological achievements are hurting universe more than helping them.NEVER HUMAN BEING WAS SO CRUEL.
    LAST 8 MONTHS there is no goverment in iraq.
    same with afghanistan.give me the name of one afghan who attacked america.

    same in pakistan.rulers are thieve ,no doubt.they are out to sell country for personal benefit.
    but people are very loving.i know many sikh ladies ,iwill go to pakistan for 1 month they will stay for 3-4 months.because of hospitality and care.
    evenNATIONAL SONGS OF PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH ARE WRITTEN BY HINDUS.JAGAN NATH AZAD AND RABINDRA NATH TAGORE.

    HINDU ZOINISTS are spewing hatred,lies and wrong version of history ,prepared by britishers , in their shakhas,to ignite civil war in nation.for them abusing muslims and pakistan is true patriotism.

    if u will see the people of ur being killed daily in drone attacks u will do something.general dyer was murdered in bitish parliament by son of victim of jalianwall.
    now ibecause all these nuisense,muslims are last to be hired and first to fired.
    THEY BECOME SUICIDE BOMBER FOR MONEY.when u will see ur familly members dying of hunger and enemy is identified I HOPE U WILL DO THE SAME.

    why no jew died on sept 11 .we asians died most and suffering most.iraq was good employent place for indians.yesterday 55 christians were killed.
    because of them more than 50000 americans are living in canada as refugees.thousands are sleeping in parks and street.to avoid taxation now they have started going towards jungles.

    brhmnsm has destroyed our primary education system.CAN U NAME ONE INTELLECTUAL IN UR SURROUNDINS IN INDIA.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    You catch a rich Nigerian Muslim boy bringing bomb powder in his underwerar. A rich PAkistani Muslim boy (whose father

    hegde jee rich or poor has no meaning .i feed cats everyday.i shouted at one cat month ago since then ,though hungry ,refuse my food till today.budhdha was son of a king.money can bring security not happines.

  • Shoeb K

    Our ( I mean Muslims’) friends like Ram and Ravi are doing more damage to Indian Muslims by equivocating RSS to Al Quada. It is beyond imagination they will do that. Many moderates, Hindus and Muslims will be turned off by that equivocation, and it will further damage Muslims.

    I am a frequent overseas traveller; with the last one about three months ago for an MIT symposium. Last ten years have been increasingly onerous and tough to travel. I know, like all of you, that all the travel restrictions and long lines and checking shoes and hands and everything — no RSS guy caused this.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    It would have been better if you had actually drawn some parallels or differences between the two organisations rather that taken this holier than this damage limitation stance that you have taken.

    However, I will have a go:

    Similarities:

    1. Both organisations either in part or entirely have Religion Based Agenda.
    2. They are both not afraid to use Violence as a means to achieve their political objectives. In other words they are terrorist organisations
    3. Both depend upon funds provided by members of the public from countries around the world.
    4. Many other organisations derive their inspiration from each of these organisations.
    5. Both have been banned at some point or another in the country of their origin.
    6. Both RSS and LeT have charity wings.

    Dissimilarities:

    1. RSS is a highly organised fascist organisation, where as Al Qiada is a loosely organised group of people. However, Taliban are a bit more organised.
    2. RSS’s theatre of activity is confined to India, where as Al Qaida is international.
    3. Al Qaida has a strong clearly defined Salafi/Wahabi philosophy as its base, where as god only knows what religious philosophy, beyond general Hinduism, is the inspiration for RSS.
    4. Al Qaida’s enemy is the west, where as RSS’s enemy is any one who is not a Hindu.

    When I compared the two organisations and called them similar I did not intend it to mean that each is an exact match for the other. They are not and no two organisations can ever be. Even Boy Scouts and Girl Guide are different at detail level but overall can be said to be similar.

    Moreover, I am not Pro Muslim or Pro anything. I am merely against Fundamentalism no matter which relgion it comes from.

    I am a liberal and I am proud of it.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    hey, i did not even talk about LeT! You are simply too much!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Thanks

    ram autar Reply:

    shoeb,

    The Dalit-Bahujans and Contemporary Hindutva

    Today, the Hindutva movement is actively engaged in wooing the Dalit-Bahujans, threatened as the ‘upper caste/class elites are by the growing assertiveness of the ‘lower’ caste masses against ‘upper’ caste hegemony. In areas where the Dalit-Bahujan movement has not taken strong root Hindutva groups have been successful in bringing large numbers of Dalit-Bahujans into their fold. Copying the Christian missionaries, the RSS has set up a large number of schools in Dalit localities and tribal areas. The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) regularly sends out so-called sadhus and priests to preach among the Dalits and tribals in order to incorporate them into the ‘Hindu’ fold and prevent their conversion to other religions. Fed on Hindutva propaganda, the Dalit-Bahujans are instigated to attack, rape and loot Muslims, and now Christians, in the name of defending ‘Hinduism’. This strategy was well exemplified in the case of the Babri Masjid affair, when, faced with the announcement of reservations in government services for the Backward Castes, the Hindutvawadis launched a murderous anti-Muslim campaign all over the country to scuttle the Mandal report by instigating Dalit-Bahujans to attack the Muslims, thus cleverly diverting their attention from the burning question of caste oppression and ‘upper’ caste hegemony. For the Hindutvawadis, the Dalit-Bahujans serve their classical role as servants of the ‘upper’ castes and foot soldiers to unleash murderous pogroms against Muslims. The most recent case is that of Gujarat, where Dalits and tribals were instigated by Hindutva forces to embark on a virtual genocide of Muslims in the state.
    Through the process of Hinduisation that the Hindutvawadis are so carefully promoting among the Dalit-Bahujans, the Dalits and tribals achieve an illusory sense of upward social mobility (as ‘valiant’ Hindus), while the caste-class structure of oppression remains firmly intact. In fact, that is precisely the purpose behind the entire Hindutva project-to co-opt the Dalit-Bahujans, to destroy the movements for the assertion of their rights, and to quash their protest against the system of caste-class exploitation, by diverting their wrath from their actual oppressors (the ‘upper’ caste-class exploiters) onto carefully constructed ‘enemies’ in the form of Muslims, Christians, Naxalites, Communists and so on. At the same time as the Dalit-Bahujans are being actively recruited into the Hindutva movement, killings of Dalits and tribals by ‘upper’ castes continue to escalate, particularly in states where Hindutvawadis have acquired a strong hold. Many of those behind these killings are
    known to be active Hindutvawadis themselves. This is no mere coincidence. Rather, it is a direct and logical outcome of the Hindutvawadi agenda itself. As Shamsul Islam perceptively notes, ‘The Hindu Right which is ruling India presently is totally unconcerned about these mounting atrocities against the ‘Untouchables’ [.] It should surprise nobody that the states where the maximum cases of caste atrocities are taking place are states where either the RSS/BJP have a substantial social base or are being ruled by them’.[3]
    In order to win the Dalit-Bahujans to their fold, the Hindutvawadis, who fiercely opposed Dr. Ambedkar during his own lifetime, are now seeking to turn him into a harmless icon, projecting him as a great servant of Hinduism and an enemy of Islam. In the Hindutva appropriation of Ambedkar, Ambedkar’s radical critique of Hinduism is totally ignored. This sudden expression of love for Ambedkar is completely hypocritical and has, of course, nothing at all to do with any appreciation of Ambedkar’s own sharp denunciation of Hinduism. It owes entirely to the awareness of the growing importance of Ambedkar and his message among the Dalit-Bahujan masses. Hindutva doublespeak on Ambedkar comes out sharp and clear in a leaflet said to have been issued by the VHP’s Gujarat unit shortly after having used the Dalits to launch on a virtual genocide of Muslims in the state.

    ‘THE SECOND OPEN LETTER OF TRUE RAM SEVAKS’

    “Let the Ambedkarite Harijans who oppose the Hindutva ideology understand. We will not allow them [to] mix with even the soil of Hindustan. Today, time is in our hands. Hindutva is the ideology of true Hindus [and] it never accepts the Harijans who are the offspring of the untouchable Ambedkar. The Ambedkarite Harijans, Bhangis, Tribals and the untouchable Shudra castes who believe in Ambedkar do not have any right to give speeches or criticize the Hindutva ideology in Hindustan, because as a dog raises its leg and urinates whenever there is a question or discussion related to the Hindutva ideology these Ambedkarites, Harijans, Bhangis, Adivasis and other untouchable low castes sling their dirt on the Hindutva ideology or show their caste [their low

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Thanks Shoeb,

    For coming out and refusing to compare RSS to Al Qaida in the same line. If a Hindu says this, he will immediately be branded as communal. (An RSS supporter should not be taken as supporter of Bhajrangdal or Ramsena goons). Any violent acts need to be condemned. But one sided hammering will inevitably build the gap. More muslim voices are needed to oppose these elements which would fuel the divide. Today, common muslim man’s resilience(/silence)over Ayodhya verdict has sounded thousand times bigger than these posts above. After a long time, the two communities have shown maturity of co-operation but some confronting elements keeps widening the wedge. Not only Hindus, it is even Muslim’s responsibility to try and differentiate the dividing lines.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    rss is local terrorist while alqaeda is international.rss kills innocent citiens and rape their women.alqueda is fighting international zoinism and imperialism,through terrorism.both are serpents.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Yes you are absolutely right, on Right Wing Hindus defend RSS, and RSS is a communal organisation and any one Muslim or Hindu defends it at the cost of aligning themselves with the communal elements in our society.

    You are such an individual.

    Please tell me why is it that a supporter of RSS should not be taken as supporter of Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and all other such organisations.

    It is a well known fact, that in order to save itself from being banned and its assets being frozen, RSS floats such – dispensable organisations and individuals. They are of an ilk and support for one DOES amount to supporting others. These organisations are nothing more than EXECUTIVE branches of RSS. Read the Rand report, pasted above.

    You are among those who is fuelling the divides by pointedly criticising Islamic Terrorism and completely ignoring Hindu Terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ravi jehadist Pakistani Muslim psuedo name Ram

    Looks like you give lot of credence to Rand Report. So, why won’t you give cerdit to their assertion there is no proof that Saddam Hussein destroyed his weapons of mass destructin?

    And since when is Rand Report the authoritative “verdict” on Indian internal affairs?

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Rand Corporation is a reputable think tank.

    Not suggesting that they can not be wrong, but given the choice between you and other RSS appologists, I rather believe them.

    Sadam Hussein never had any weapons of mass destruction. That is the tragic fact.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Forgot to add.

    You are a Hindu Fundo terrorist, who has a walrus style moustache with a name like Shalwarpehankar, Golimarkar, or may be even Naukar Chakar.

    Lets not forget the semi-naked junju wearing Vermin.

    Lets not forget TWO CAN PLAY THIS GAME

  • DUDE

    Let us not forget the MUMBAI ATTACKS on 26/11/08 by ………. surprise surprise MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

    Hypocrite deluded people on earth!

    with their made up history of false facts of islam creating everything!

    wake up islam = terror not peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    And while we are remebering lets not forget Ahemadabad Riots, Ayudhya riots.

    All fomented by HINDUS.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    islam has done much worse you degenerate!

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    GUESS WHO’S BACK/………….

    Ye thats right Players, DUDE is back……….. so all you raVI ganders ands ram autars……be afraid fools!

    for a islam free india VOTE FOR DUDE!

    RE CONVERT TO YOUR ANCERSTRAL RELIGIONS FOR ANY DUMB BROWN PERSON WHO’S FAMILY HISTORY HAD BEEN CONVERTED BY FORCE BY MOGUL AND SUFI MUZZOS!

    RE CLAIM ASHOKAS INDIA AS ONE! INCLUDING AFGHAN AND PAK AND BAGERSTAN!

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRWHATAAAAAAAAAAAAAARUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Welcome back crude Dude.

    You scare me as much as a Cheese and Chutney sandwich does.

    You are nothing more and nothing less than a lobotomised idiot.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    Finally the cat is out of the bag. Even the Union Home Minister (a Tamil Chettiar) has unequivocally said that the country is facing grave threat from the emerging ‘saffron’ terror. He deliberately chose to ignore one interesting fact that all the accused (yes all) in the Malegaon, Ajmer Sharif, Samjhouta Express, Mecca Masjid and Goa bomb blasts are Brahmins and not “Hindus”. Brahmins, specially those who consider Aryans, have always maliciously practiced the indoctrinated sacred ideology of violence and terror. To continue with their superiority doctrine, they killed Gandhi and now Karkare. They brutally murdered Sambhaji, the son of Shivaji, because in their view he had committed all the crimes that deserved to be punished under the Manusmirti. In fact the Brahmin history is replete with the acts of terror and violence.

    Actually it is a misconception to label the Brahminical acts of terror as “Hindu terror”. For, Brahmins are not Hindu and Hindu are not Brahmins. Will the Home Minister release and seek an unconditional apology from all the innocent Muslim boys falsely accused and arrested in the above blasts or his statement is merely the recognition of the grave wrongs committed by our Brahmin worshipping system.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    muslim twerp!

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    dude main problem is that u Hindus do not know who created t your gods. No god is found to be the embodiment of so many attributes. They say that god cannot be seen. They say that he has no shape. Yet they have created different gods with different shapes. They say god is not in need of anything. They say that he is the giver of all things. Yet they offer cooked food. Gods have wives, concubines, marriage and other ceremonies.

    What is the difference between man and god?

    Do we have one single god that exists free from moral depravity. Your gods are born to elephants, horses and donkeys. There is not a god that has a decent parentage. God Siva is said to have had intercourse for a lakh of years with his consort

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    U Muslim jehadi ****

    What is your point?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    U Muslim jehadi ****

    What is your point

    comrade vinoy,i apolige if u are hurt.this truth is for dude.

    DUDE Reply:

    Yo ram autistic tw.at……

    mohammed was a peado who foooked a minor called aisha……..you peado worshiper!

    I’m sure your kind knows of the full story with the marriage and fooking of aisha the 6 yr old and mohamm the 52 yr old spaz! foooking her when she reached 9 and he was what 56? my my what a peado…. and dumb arabian slaves follow this!

    wake up and re convert you sh it

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Ashish and Binoy and all china lovers,this a cut a paste from a article.Next time think twice before buying a chinese good.
    Almost coinciding with the 13th round of Sino-Indian border talks (New Delhi [ Images ], August 7-8, 2009), an article (in the Chinese language) has appeared in China captioned ‘If China takes a little action, the so-called Great Indian Federation can be broken up’ (Zhong Guo Zhan Lue Gang, http://www.iiss.cn, Chinese, August 8, 2009).

    Interestingly, it has been reproduced in several other strategic and military Web sites of the country and by all means, targets the domestic audience. The authoritative host site is located in Beijing [ Images ] and is the new edition of one, which so far represented the China International Institute for Strategic Studies (www.chinaiiss.org).

    Claiming that Beijing’s ‘China-Centric’ Asian strategy, provides for splitting India [ Images ], the writer of the article, Zhan Lue (strategy), has found that New Delhi’s corresponding ‘India-Centric’ policy in Asia, is in reality a ‘Hindustan centric’ one. Stating that on the other hand ‘local centres’ exist in several of the country’s provinces (excepting for the UP and certain northern regions), Zhan Lue has felt that in the face of such local characteristics, the ’so-called’ Indian nation cannot be considered as one having existed in history.

    According to the article, if India today relies on any thing for unity, it is the Hindu religion. The partition of the country was based on religion. Stating that today nation states are the main current in the world, it has said that India could only be termed now as a ‘Hindu religious state’. Adding that Hinduism is a decadent religion as it allows caste exploitation and is unhelpful to the country’s modernisation, it described the Indian government as one in a dilemma with regard to eradication of the caste system as it realises that the process to do away with castes may shake the foundation of the consciousness of the Indian nation.

    The writer has argued that in view of the above, China in its own interest and the progress of Asia, should join forces with different nationalities like the Assamese, Tamils, and Kashmiris and support the latter in establishing independent nation-States of their own, out of India. In particular, the ULFA (United Liberation Front of Asom) in Assam, a territory neighboring China, can be helped by China so that Assam realises its national independence.

    The article has also felt that for Bangladesh, the biggest threat is from India, which wants to develop a great Indian Federation extending from Afghanistan to Myanmar. India is also targeting China with support to Vietnam’s efforts to occupy Nansha (Spratly) group of islands in South China Sea.

    Hence the need for China’s consolidation of its alliance with Bangladesh, a country with which the US and Japan [ Images ] are also improving their relations to counter China.

    It has pointed out that China can give political support to Bangladesh enabling the latter to encourage ethnic Bengalis in India to get rid of Indian control and unite with Bangladesh as one Bengali nation; if the same is not possible, creation of at least another free Bengali nation state as a friendly neighbour of Bangladesh, would be desirable, for the purpose of weakening India’s expansion and threat aimed at forming a ‘unified South Asia’.

    The punch line in the article has been that to split India, China can bring into its fold countries like Pakistan, Nepal and Bhutan, support ULFA in attaining its goal for Assam’s independence, back aspirations of Indian nationalities like the Tamils and Nagas, encourage Bangladesh to give a push to the independence of West Bengal [ Images ] and lastly recover the 90,000 sq km territory in southern Tibet [ Images ].

    Wishing for India’s break-up into 20 to 30 nation-States like in Europe, the article has concluded by saying that if the consciousness of nationalities in India could be aroused, social reforms in South Asia can be achieved, the caste system can be eradicated and the region can march along the road of prosperity.

    The Chinese article in question will certainly outrage readers in India. Its suggestion that China can follow a strategy to dismember India, a country always with a tradition of unity in diversity, is atrocious, to say the least. The write-up could not have been published without the permission of the Chinese authorities, but it is sure that Beijing will wash its hands out of this if the matter is taken up with it by New Delhi.

    It has generally been seen that China is speaking in two voices — its diplomatic interlocutors have always shown understanding during their dealings with their Indian counterparts, but its selected media is pouring venom on India in their reporting. Which one to believe is a question confronting the public opinion and even policy makers in India.

    In any case, an approach of panic towards such outbursts will be a mistake, but also ignoring them will prove to be costly for India.

    D S Rajan, is Director, Chennai Centre for China Studies.
    D S Rajan
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    Post Script, the chinese action is already visible in comments by ram autar, ravi and Bobby.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    Not sure which of my points you believe illustrate the main thrust of your post.

    Unless of course what you mean is that my Liberal views will play into the hands of China, where as irrational but strong pro-Hindu views expressed here contribute to strengthening the identity of Hindu India.

    If that is the point you are making, then God Bless India.

    ENEMIES and THREATS.

    In a previous post I quoted a survey carried out in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, believe that their main threat comes from USA, but their main enemy is India.

    Similarly, one can safely say that India is more threatened by China, but its enemy remains Pakistan.

    Whilst China may harbour ambitions to break up and thereby weaken India. It is India that has broken Pakistan and still has active policies to further divide Pakistan into smaller pieces. There is nothing wrong with and or new in this policy.

    What will stop India from fragmenting is not a strong Hindu identity, but a strong Indian identity. Every effort made by the Indian government to foster such a strong identity is thwarted by BJP. Its preference is to promote narrow defined Hindu Identity. RSS has recently realised the futility of this policy and has recently changed it. It has now widened and secularised the Hindu Identity so much so that it is now indistinguishable from the Secular Indian Identity. If this turns out to be NOT A CYNICAL party political ploy then I welcome it.

    On a lighter note. Buddhism is considered as a part of Hinduism. Does that not make China and many other South Asian countries as Hindu Nations?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi

    China is not Budhist

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Are you sure

  • Binoy Hegde

    well, the midterm election results are out here in us. the republicans won the house with 239/199 majority. most of the republicans ran on the tea party platform – one plaque being the muslim terrorists will kill america as we know, so they have to be dealt with ( and Obama is not doing enough, and that Obama is a closet Muslim etc etc)..

    Us will be after Pakistan and other Muslims more than what they are now with this Republican majority in the house

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Will the right wing box Obama in? Can he get his progressive agenda moving, or will everything be brought back to “no tax and spend”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    So what you are suggesting here is that Obama is soft on Pkaistan and that the Tea Party will force him to take harder line with Pakistan.

    However, two years ago the US President was a Republican, and US realtionship with Pakistan was much the same.

    US Foriegn Policy is an exclusive domain of the US president and no amount of Tea Party can change that.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    No one can expose the fallacy of the liberal agenda like Prasannarajan of India Today can: read this

    The Hate India Movement: Nation : India Today http://bit.ly/9YoUce

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    That Gilani will prefer the democratic Pakistan over theocratic India is what we have received after the sixty years of love and care.

    Prasannarajan is absolutely right when he says the Book rules.

    GOI/Congress obviously doesnt want to upset the Muslim voting block. My gut is that Indian Muslims will prefer a show of force, getting rid of Glani, and making it a part of India like any other state, no special favors. I think it is like the Haj subsidy. Many Muslims want it to be removed.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    It is true that many Muslim’s consider Haj Subsidies against the teachings of Islam.

    However, you fail to mention subsidies given to Hindus, for Piligimages to Kailash and Mansrover, etc.

    You may be subtle in your propoganda, but I am vigilant

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi

    What I said is many Muslims want Haj Subsidy removed (not because of the religious aspect of ot; but because they do not want any special treatment creating arrow throwing by others) and be considered like “normal” citizens. But GOI does not want to do that because of the vote bank fear. Similarly, many Indian Muslims would want GOI to take a tough stand on Kashmir, however GOPI does nt take tougfh stand because of the fear of Muslimvoter backlash.

    Well, let us not get into payments for religious trips. Haj payments (direct and infrastructural) are significantly larger than all others combined — and all the pro Muslims will say it is an indirect payment to Air India! Let us not get into that argument.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    You made many points.

    1. Many muslims believe that TRUE Haj should only be conducted by those who are able to both Physically as well as Financially afford it. These Muslims consider the subsidy as anti Sharia.

    2. So you do admit that both State as well as Central Gov provides subsidies for Religious Pilgrimages to Hindus. That does not obstruct you gullet but the one given to Muslims does. That is because you are a biased individual.

    3. Hindu is the largest Vote Bank in India, by opposing the Haj payments, BJP is trying to shore up its own HINDU FUNDO (and a Syrian Christian) vote bank.

    4. The only reason why Haj payment is larger than the Kailash and Mansrover pilgrimage payments is because Air Travel is involved.

    5. How canny of our Govt, that it uses subsidies to drum up business for state Airline.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    No Ravi, while they all may be true, that is not the point I made.

    Many Indian Muslims do not like the idea of Haj Subsidy, not on any religious grounds, but on “citizenship” grounds – that they fear by GOI providing this benefit, it ignites unnecessary criticisma nd attention and make them look like permanent support needers. So, amy Muslims will not be upset about removal of this, although no govt will remove because of the vote bank fear.

    Similarly, many Indian muslims , I believe , are for tougher stand againt Kashmiris like Giliani. But Govt wouldnt do anything because they are afraid of the vote bank issues, and it may be an unfound fear, and nothing will happen in terms of “Muslim voter backlash”, in fact it may work positive.,

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    Not sure what your point is.

    Would you like me to provide links to articles which expose the futility of Hindu Agenda.

    Remember you are not the only person who has mastered the art of using Google.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan,
    “China lover”.. can we do without simplistic labels?
    I for one think as a nation we have a lot to learn from China in
    1. How to foster economic growth
    2. How to spread education and healthcare.
    3. How to build infrastructure and use it to spread prosperity
    4. How to manage diversity across 1.2 B people spread across a vast geography.
    5. How to negotiate from a position of strength with the rest of the world.
    6. How to “win friends and influence people” in the international arena.
    7. Above all, how to have a cohesive strategy to drive their vision for their people.

    The above is not a comment on the moral aspect of their vision, strategy, statecraft or even individual actions. It is also not a comment on whether China’s actions can be detrimental to India or not; they may well be.
    To counter China, if such is indeed our strategic objective, we might do well to study China’s methods. Some could work for us as well.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Good points, Ashish.

    I will change 4 ino “how to foster singularity of purpose and unity in spite of diversity of its people”..

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, while driving to work listened to the wireless , there was a talk about china.
    Few points you fail to mention about chinese wisdom
    1. How to STARVE 30 MILLION IN 1958-1960 , AND KEEP IT UNDER WRAPS.
    2. How to smother any information about the CHILD DEATHS DUE TO CONTAMINATED MILK during Beijing olympics.
    3. How to jail people for asking for more freedom to express themselves.
    4. How to throw google out of china by spying on their servers.
    5. Thee high speed train that syed was talking about is apparently technology supplied by german , french, and japanese technology transfer.
    6.How to roll in TANKS TO CRUSH STUDENT PROTEST IN TIANNAMEN (and they were not burning buildings or throwing stones).
    7. how to produce goods using slave labour like in prison and how to DEAL WITH ANYBODY TRYING TO FORM UNIONS OR ASKING FOR DECENT WAGES.(GADDARS prakash karat , yechuri take note)
    8. According to the discussion in wireless as much we deride NHS , apparently AVERAGE chinese have no healthcare so to speak of , that is the reason for these high saving rate.
    9. Economy is totally dependendent on EXPORT , not much internal demand to take it forward.
    10.I am sure you dont get english version of japanese TV (NHK) in India. In one programme on uigurs (muslims) of far western china, it showed PEOPLE SO POOR THEY GO OUT TO COLLECT WILD ANTS for subsistence.
    11. lot of ho ha about adarsh Building society , how many poor villages have been submerged in building three gorges dam , and still now so many houses are pounded to give way to high rise for the han chinese.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ashish

    Some of the points you raised, which would be difficult to implement in a free democratic country are

    Point 3 : Any flyover or road expansion has to be met with litigation (be from affected or from environmentalists).
    Point 1 : China has deliberately kept its currency low for promoting exports. We don’t know what happens when the bubble bursts. In open countries, any negatives (be an economical burst or the dirty toilets in CWG) will be hyped up and shown. Remedies can be taken to cure it immediately.
    Point 7 : The government’s vision has to be derived by implementation of certain laws which would override fundamental rights (like government decides how many kids a family would have). Again in a free country some people would go to court, if such a law is enforced.

    Point 6 : We have a rival brother who is not happy with the property division. He won’t mind going to court, pledge his belongings to a money vendor ( http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/aug/28/pak-cedes-gilgit-baltistan-areas-to-china.htm ) whose cost may be more than the property he lost for his brother. China certainly is a good manipulator of Pakistan’s weakness/idiotism. The article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/world/asia/31china.html?hp) speaks how most Asian countries feel concerned about China’s rapid growth as super power. It does not mention the exception… Pakistan (which seems to be happy, giving total control of its land which is strategically important for China’s access to the gulf and getting encircled by this giant).
    Difficult to win him over with our Kashmir baggage.

    China can’t be a role model to work on the things above. We need to maneuver differently.

    But point 2, point 4 (uniform civil code) should be tried. It is only through education and awareness (Point 2), we can achieve point 3 and 7. 5 has to be attempted rigorously. Yes, we will reach their state much slower than them. At least we can be confident, it is not a reversible process. One day, China might come out of communism. It will still have the enviable infrastructure. But can it hold its states after having this cohesive strategy among diverse population for decades? (One fine morning, we woke up to see a strong USSR changed into small independent “ethnic” countries). What is the guarantee, this cohesiveness for an outsider is not an oppression for insider?

    To me, what India really needs to work on is “corruption”. (India is a liberal country, will not give justification for its massive presence). From looting natural resources to allocating flats meant for war widows and veterans. It is omnipresent. Any role model country for eradicating this?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, points well made. But the problem with India is this MALIGNANT INERTIA. Change laws to give severe punishment to any one involved with corruption SPLASH IT ON TV , THE GUY BEING TAKEN TO COURT WITH HANDS TIED WITH ROPE, the message will percolate.
    Also as Gunnar Myrdal has pointed out Indians like to talk about corruption, rather than collecting hard data , and not relying on news headlines. The first is PRODUCTION , produce , produce, produce. The agricultural output needs to be quadrupled. EDUCATION SHOULD BE COMPULSORY TILL AGE SIXTEEN , WITH NO COMPULSION TO TAKE CBSE , and children should be removed from the parents care if they fail to send their children to school. Some hundreed thousand polytechnics need to be opened , teaching everything from brick laying to electrical fittings. In UK there is THREE YEARS COURSE WITH DEGREE FOR HAIR CUTTING. tHIS WILL ELEVATE THE STANDARD and stop the sloppiness that is hallmark of indian craftmanship.
    PATRIOTISM should be taught from primary schools , as a curriculum , not pakistan bashing and all that , but why taking bribe damages , the economy of your country , coming to work in time and staying till the due hours . Once start ramming in from childhood , it is bound to have some effect.Also we need at least five hundreed management schools , india severly lacks in managerial expertise . We have three to four very high class management schools , the sole intention of students is to graduate so that they can land a job in barclays.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vinay,
    Thank you for your very detailed response. I agree that China’s situation is different. But, there are points to learn. Well, yes we have democracy.But, should that be an excuse?

    Point 3 : Any flyover or road expansion has to be met with litigation (be from affected or from environmentalists)- let is face it; we float very few balloons to start with; and some of them are shot down. Happens in all countries- can not be an excuse for not doing anything.
    Point 1 : China has deliberately kept its currency low for promoting exports. ,, yes, the Americans don’t like ti, do they? :P But, they can’t do much. And, what bubble? US is addicted to cheap Chinese goods.
    Point 7 : The government’s vision has to be derived by implementation of certain laws which would override fundamental rights (like government decides how many kids a family would have). Again in a free country some people would go to court, if such a law is enforced.
    No Vinay, we do not go to that extent. My point here was that our planning is extremely haphazard and has no grand strategy. Ask anyone in the government what we plan to do on the 3 top issues today (e.g Kashmir, Industrialization, Food production..) you will hear very tactical answers. For example, in Kashmir- our strategy is to send in 3 wise men as interlocutors,

    Point 6 : We have a rival brother ….
    The point in international diplomacy is not about being loved but respected/ feared and obeyed. Also, buying some gratitude helps too; witness those credit lines in Africa. The arms supplied to the Sri Lankan army; the port the Chinese are building in Sri Lanka.

    I agree about corruption being the biggest scourge. We need to fix our justice delivery system too;

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I believe India will make huge progress if (1) the size of IAS bureaucracy is reduced and IAS officers subject to punishment by normal civil service processes or a CBI type entity and not peers — my understanding is that it is very rare an IAS guy is punished , emaning out of government plus jail (2) Legal process fastened –cases tie up for 20 and 30 years or even generations (3) A “district attorney” system like US who can go after “racketeering, corruption,a nd abuse cases’ on credible evidence – cases like Kargill housing, reddy mining, Jharkand mining, MLA/MP buying out, mayawati type corruption etc will eb acted upon by this entity that is not under State Govt (4) infrastructure development a private/public partnershoip– We have demonstrated that we can build world class airports through GVK type arrangement, open up highways, flyovers..

    (and to keep Ravi engaged, dont give any contract to Muslims)

  • Vijay Kumar

    :D :D :D :D !!! :) :) :) RAM AUTAR EXPOSED !!! :D :D :D :D !!! :) :) :)

    Ram Autar is a Pakistani called Azhar Naffar Hussain. I have traced out the truth from his IP address. I think all the bloggers out here should not waste their time thinking of answers to his cut and paste from various sites.

    The main issues of the blog are lost!!

    Zia, I think the spirit should be of reconcilation. Advani may be wrong. Why hit Muslim feelings. But on the reverse somebody may say that HIndus are always hurt when the orinig of Lord Rama is questioned.

    At the end of the day, that 1 acre pice of land is of little use to Muslims as they have not worshipped htere.

    For HIndus it is like Mecca.

    But…

    Ultimately both communities should soften their stance and reconcile….

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay Kumar

    Once again you are not attacking the points some one is making, but instead you are attacking the person.

    This strategy of trying to prove that a point made by a Muslim/Pakistani is not a valid point simply because the person making it is a Muslim and/or Pakistani is pure humbug. Same logic can be used to discredit any point you make by simply dismissing as the rants of a BELIEVER.

    I suggest you think again. The point still remains valid no matter who makes it.

    You looking up Ram Autar’s IP address in order to detect if he is based in Pakistan or not, does not take away the potency of the points he makes or prove anything. It does however go a long way to proving – once again – that you are a simpleton. Stick to going to Picnics in historical places.

    Once again you are under the impression that Ayodhya is all about 1 Acre of Land. It is much much much more than that. There are important principles and politics at stake. Whilst the Judgement give by the Allahabad Court was to do with Land, the dispute is considerable larger.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Vijay Kumar,

    Thanks for the information, which most people doubted. But using IP address to trace him? Is it ethical in blogs? Just a query.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    not sure if anyone other than an administrator can check IP address of those who are posting..

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    As far as I remember , Vinod Sharma offered Vijay Kumar to be a moderator in his blog. This “Autar” posts in Vinod’s blogs as well. So..

    Ravi Reply:

    That is true Ashish.

    However Vijay was just having a cheap shot, because he is an emotional cripple and an intelectual bankcrupt.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vinay,
    moderator and administrator with system rights are different.. suffice it to say, I have more than a nodding acquaintance with blogs; the wordpress platform in particular. Anyway, it is not central to the discussions.
    To Vijay Kumar’s point (which I thought he made): if Ram Autar’s comments seem “derivative”- they do, because they are. You can find them: in all sorts of websites- the central themes of whom are brahmin/ Hindu abuse. Some of these websites have also been trying to claim a natural brotherhood between Dalits, Maoists and Muslims; they also claim this is naturally ranged against the brahmin/hindu/ Jewish/ American entente.
    Such material is lifted without due credit to the source and recycled as original thoughts. Ram Autar is not the only one who helps himself to such “rich source” of intellectual nourishment. Same song, same songsheet, same tune- singers were different.
    The other point is, and I have said this before: I am very sure Ram Autar is an Indian. And, why get upset? His thoughts are not his own anyway.

    ram autar Reply:

    vijay,.court has said that some people (microscopic minority)has ith that rama was born there.one of the judges has clearly written that ,no temple was demolished to build mosque.
    the entire story is based on lies and fraud,with an intention to ignite inter comunity wars,the ultimate aim of hindu zoinists.

    HISTORICALLY AYODHYA WAS BUDHHDIST ITS ORIGINAL NAME IS SAKET.WHEN BUDHHDIST WERE ANNIHILATED under the leadership of aadi shankaracharya, THIS PLACE HAS GONE TO JAINESE.WHEN BRAHMIN EXTINCTED JAINESE PLACE GONE TO VEDICS.they converted their places of worship to shiva temples.only in 16th century ramanand tiwari spreaded ram bhakti.brahmin tulsidaas wrote anti-women manual called ram charis manas.and only then people of ayodhya were introduced to
    lord ram.he was king not god.that is why there is no temple dedicated to him even in ayodhya.
    shia rulers of ayodhya used this faith to vibrate economy.under their rule ayodhya became vibrant municipality.most of temple were financed by them.few of big one are still owned by them.
    congress and bjp used them for vote bank politics.
    bjp &arun nehru used this to establish brhmn state and destroy constitution.advani used this to make bangles for hi wife by melting ram statues presented to him by stupid ram bhakt

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    lie that any temple was demolished to build mosque,was fabricated to grab mosque and its adjoining land.ram is not included in the list of hindu gods.ramrajya never ran any construction project.after 40 he sent sita to jungle.even though she was pregnant.did not see his sons for 16 years.burnt a dalit SHAMBHOOK alive ,when he was found reciting holy scripture.
    as per ramayan ,after sunset this great king used to drown himself in wines and concubines.in lanka also he used to do the same ,what sheikhs are doing now in switzerland.21/2 years sita was with hanuman.HE REACHED LANKA WITH THE HELP OF HANUMAN AND HIS ARMY (VANAR SENA).brhmns reciprocated his hospitality ,help and generosity,by depicting him as subhuman(monkey or in plain word a ch00tiya)
    ram was born 5000 yrs ago life of ayodhya is only 2300.
    with the help of hanuman

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I think Ravi and Ram are the same. Ravi also takes statements from islamabadworld.com verbatum. Islamabad.com is a Pakistani govt site . Vijay, can you check that

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You have now plunged to the bottom of the cespit.

    Vijay no need to check that.

    He is a Saffron Terrorist. A Hindu Fundo.

    A Junju wearing semin naked Vermin.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I am glad I am a saffron terrorist and not your brother Taliban and Alqueda who are killing people all across, using ones own brother’s cavities to fill fissile material, chopping girls noses becausse they go tos chool…Whya re your brothers so much against education? (Not only your terrorist brothers, buta ll your Muslim brothers..why, why dont they like education? You guys rulked Hyderabad for God sake 200 plus years..how come Muslims are not educated there?)

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You don’t seem to be very much educated, either.

    Remind me how many Presidents of India have been Muslims and what their educational achievements were.

    And while we are at it, don’t forget your HINDU FUNDO SAFFRON TERRORIST brothers are so weak and insipid that they only assault GIRLS in Bangalore.

    Remember Pink Chudy campaign was aimed at Walrus moustachioed Ram Sainiks. They are just like you.

    Illiteracy among POOR Hindus is just the same as it is in other communities.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Thank you Ravi, for educating me.

    Ravi Reply:

    HOLD THE PRESS :) :) BINOY and VINAY are the same person.

    EXPOSED, EXPOSED, EXPOSED

    Look at this.

    http://hegdevinayi.blogspot.com/2009/09/her-eyes.html

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Here is to complete your education….some institutions which encourage education among Muslims of Hyderabad.

    There are several others.

    jsn college of engineering & technology adilabad andhra pradesh jawaharlal nehru technological university, hyderabad
    it is a muslim minority institution

    courses offered
    •ece
    •it
    •cse
    badar,
    asifabad road adilabad andhra pradesh jawaharlal nehru technological university, hyderabmore…

    quba college of engineering & technology nellore jawaharlal nehru technological university, hyderabad

    quba educational society is registered as an educational body in the year 1991, under a. p. registration act of 1350 fasli with the registered no3663.this society is self financed un aided muslim minomore…

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    You education continues.

    You asked why Muslims in Hyderabad are not educated.

    This report may help you understand and change your perspective.

    ________________________________________________________

    India lags behind its neighbours, Pakistan and Bangladesh, on human development indices like life expectancy at birth and mean or average years of schooling, a United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) report released on Thursday said. Titled “Real Wealth of Nations: Pathways to Human Development”, the report had a global launch and was released at the UN in New York by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon.

    While India is ranked 119 on the Human Development Index (HDI) among 169 countries — above Pakistan and Bangladesh which are ranked 125 and 129, respectively — it lags behind the two on certain development indices.

    According to the report, life expectancy at birth in India is 64.4 years, while in Pakistan it is 67.2 years. In Bangladesh, life expectancy is 66.9 years.
    Similarly, mean years of schooling in India is 4.4 years while in Pakistan and Bangladesh it is 4.9 and 4.8 years respectively.

    Sri Lanka, which is ranked above India on HDI at 91, also fares better than India on the two indices. Its life expectancy at birth is 74.4 years and mean years of schooling is 8.2 years.
    On some positive note, in terms of growth of income, India is considered one of the top 10 countries. China is on the top position in this index.

    Finance Ministry’s chief economic advisor Kaushik Basu, who was present at the India launch of the report, said: “India has a lot of catching up to do. There is scope to do so much better.”

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi(who cannot find a single good thing to say abou india and we know why??????.
    Well being an avowed rationalist , I have to say all that you have written is true. but as they say there are three kind of lies, Lies, Damn Lie and Statistics(Disraeli). Apparently life expectancy of black men in newyork is 45 yrs, because if not gun , then drug will do the job. Thirty percent of americans didn’t have health insurance(till obama’s intervention, which is not yet a settled
    matter. But then can you say america is lower than srilanka . I judge a country by its scientific progress and prowess , and there is no disputing who the number one is. Applying the same criteria , pakistan , bangladesh , srilanka is light years behind.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I am glad that Ravi (whoever he is, Ram’s other name, Indian Muslim, PAakistani Muslim whatever) finally admits Indian Muslism are equally or better educated like their Hindu brothers, (he gave Hyderabad example), PAkistan and Bengla Desh is way ahead…

    Now Ravi, will you please shut down your rhetoric that Muslism are discriminated in India (at least in education– bevause you yourself have said they are equal or better)

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    When did I even jokingly suggest that Muslim in India are dicriminated.

    I challenge you to find wher I said that and quote me.

    I am not favouring Muslims here.

    I am OPPOSING HINDU FUNDO’s like you. Because you are congenital moron. A right wing fascist.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    I can barely beilieve that you can READ. Because it is patently obvious, you can not.

    Please feel free to quote where I have insulted INDIA.

    I guess you are confused. I oppose HINDU FUNDOS, like you. Not India.

    I am a liberal Indian and I love my country.

    However, F U N D O S like you have equated H I N D Uism with INDIA. Far from it.

    So I suggest kick start your education once again and learn comprehension. I am told there are good classes in COVENTRY.

    I merely posted the UN report published yesterday. Don’t shoot the messanger Mr Shan. There if no SHAN in attacking other Mr SHAN. Any one even the Binoy can do that.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Ravi,

    I am glad. You made me so younger!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    It is all those Open Air Picnics in historical sites you go to.

  • ram autar

    judge a country by its scientific progress and prowess , and there is no disputing who the number one is. Applying the same criteria , pakistan , bangladesh , srilanka is light years behind.

    mr shan ,u are right that india is far is far ahead of pakistan and bangladesh,in scientific and manufacturing field.but economy of bangladesh is moving very fast and money is reaching upto lowest strata of society.survey which published only yestertay also confirm this.in 1947 nobody could think that a bengali muslim can get noble price in economics,or cricketers from dhakha can beat newzealand.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    mr binoy mr ravi,mr shan, MERIT -MY FOOT.
    Has anybody visited the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore? ONE OF MY FRIEND go there sometimes.
    This is said to be country’s “most prestigious and internationally known research institution”. Fine.
    he asked them to give him just one instance of their research accepted as per international standards. The authorities started evading the question.
    RESEARCH IN INDIAN INST. OF SCIENCES
    But as a journalist he can speak with authority. IISc has not a single research to its credit that will help improve the living standards of the people. he said this once at a public meeting inside the IISc itself, presided by its then director.
    No Indian scientist has received any Nobel Prize after “independence”. Those “Indians” who got such prize are not Indian citizens.
    Hate cannot build a society. It can only break the society.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ram imbecile autar, the LCD display theory was first proposed in IIS. Lot of work for LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT is done in IIS , and LCA is better than Mirage fighter. So stop talking bullshit. When there was postal anthrax attack in US , it was India who could provide with ciprofloxacin , because bayer of germany was the only other manufacterer and would have cost US an arm and a leg.Also India is only other country which produces HEP B vaccine. Also it was India to whom WHO TURNED for anti AIDS drugs for Africa , because western multinational would have made africa bankrupt. Also apparently some eighty patents by indian engineers , has made NANO CAR see the day of the light. It was not CHEAP CHINESE LABOUR ,but massive strides in technology that made it possible. Even the head of Toyota got so scared , he came in person to see the launch , and asked his engineers to work in overdrive mode to come up with a similar product.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ram ka nam badnam na karo , the nobel prize that the founderof grameen bank got was for PEACE, and not economics. Bangladesh beat India in world cup , and beleive me I cannot describe just how happy I was , BECAUSE THAT GADDAR DRAVID GOT HIS JUST DESERTS, and ganguli scored the highest runs. It is salutory to note when vaughan was injured and flintoff was standing for him , flintoff said I am just keeping the seat warm for my captain , when he returns , it will be his. A lesson why INDIA WAS ENSLAVED FOR SEVEN HUNDREED YEARS.Now shiv sena and MNS like a wood worm is going to eat into the body politic of india AND ALL THOSE CHINESE DREAMS WILL COME TRUE.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan u are right ,but he is conomist and got scholarship because of his work on grameen banking.u high caste dont cosider 85% of indians as indian because u are not indian.india was not enslaved for 700 years.before moghuls came there was no india.there was small independent state were all the fighting each other as per advise of kautilya.when weak will talk of peace when strong start fighting.if clear victory is in doubt ,will bring foreigners to defeat neighbour.
    moghuls made india.during their rule bengal was called SONAR BANLA.brhmn-british alliance converted this into bhoot bangla.

    [Reply]

  • Binoy Hegde

    This is what Ram’s favorite, progressive Bengla Deshi did in UK.. May be Shan can throw more light.

    From New York Times, November 4th ” In the trial of Roshonora Chaudhary, 21 yrs old UK immigrant from Bengla Deshi, she said she stabbed Stephen Timms, the legislator from her town, to revenge for UKs participation i the attack on Iraq. When she attacked, as Mr timms met with his constituents in aa London suburb, she was wearinga black floor-length gown and a head covering that revealed only her eyes. She pulled out a kitchen knife and stabbed him twice in the abdomen.
    Ms Chaudhury refused to attend the trial , saying she did not recognize the legitimacy of the British court system ince it did not follow Sharia. ….the judge Sir Jeremy Cooke , said that she would have to serve a minimum of 15 years before applying for parole..”

    oh, why, why a Bengla Deshi? I can understand why an Iraqui would stab…but why a Bengla Deshi girl wearing purdah (they dont wear that in bengla desh!) stab in UK for Iraq ?

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    binoy things like this is happening daily in india.reason may not be iraq.son of victim of jalianwalla bagh killed dyer.exceptions donot make rule.one brhmn doctor from kanpur injected 235 patients
    of his clinic with hepatitis infected needle.now seving jail in america plus 20 million dollars fine .
    does not mean all hindus are same.though with u people especially these cases are more frequent and common..

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    It is perfectly alright and rational if the son of jaulianwala bagh victim killed Dyer. It is totally illogical if an Indonesian killed Dyer for the Julianwalah bagh massacre. You Muslims have to stop personalizing conflicts in other countries and places.

    If you are all so concerned about Muslims plight elsewhere, why dont you go to Darfur and prevent the muslim genocide happening there — one group of Muslims killing another group..more than what Americans did in Iraq

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    reason may be someother.whole europe was abusing americans when they were going to attack iraq.who never threw a pebble or stone towards america.why u have no sympathy for .such small things happens everywhere.it is west who always harras asians.I THINK U REMEMBER OHIO BOMBING ONE CHRISTIAN VICTIM OF WAR KILLED150 PEOPLE.
    muslims are least reactionary.

    regarding darfur story is same.zoinist are financing and training sepratists.because darfur is full of oil uranium and mineral resources.
    man fights only for ZAR,ZAN AND ZAMEEN.OR MONEY women or land.israeli foreign minister live in qatar.nearly all arab rulers indirectly supporting isreal.not palestanians.
    because of people like u hegde americans called LITTLE MACACA or small shit.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy , what can I say, I am at my wits end to point out to these white imbeciles in the newspaper who keep referring this Bangladeshi as a bengali that they are not bengali , they ARE BANGLADESHI. It is a grevious insult for a bengali to be called a bangladeshi. I wrote to times, how would enlish people feel if somebody referred to churchill as irish. They wrote me back and apologised. I had pointed to them there are at most ten thousand bengalis , as opposed to 750000 bangladeshi. I also pointed out there is TWO SITTING PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS IN CAMBRIDGE IS BENGALI, i also pointed out all the particles in this universe is either Fermion or Boson (of which lot of research is going on in CERN in switzerland) . I politely pointed out this boson is named after somebody called Satyendra nath bose , a 100% kosher calcuttan bengali. I also gave them in my immitable style a lecture on some more contribution and the difference between the two.
    Now coming to that bangladeshi girl , she hails from East Ham in London , a deprived area of london. Apparently she did well at school and was studying english lit and media studies, when she got indoctrinated by the same guy who is responsible for UPS bombs in US. Apparently this entirely through internet. She made appointment to see this VERY MILD MANNERED MP , and stabbed her with kitchen knife. The MP survived, she is going to be banged up for 15 yrs. She has become such a fanatic that she didn’t enter any kind of plea and said to her lawyers not to defend her as she does not recognise the court. and was not present in court but was made available through video link. The judge ordered to enter a not guilty plea so that the trial to proceed. It took juries EIGHT MINUTES to convict her. There a hijab wearing member in the jury. Now the bit that is important. During sentencing a dozen or so bearded scums from the gallery shouted Allah Ho Akbar , Islam will rule the world , Shame on you sister(hizab jury) , Roshanara is just the begining, and Roshanara you have made us proud. These scums will go to a govt given council flats , collect very very generous social security benefit , and eat biryani with that money , and then plot the next bombing. And oh yes none of them has been charged even with causing disorder in court. My feeling is all that girl needed was a good s**h**a**g

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make. But let me guess.

    1. You think that there is a difference between a Bengali and a Bangladeshi. However, what that difference is you do not explain. Let me help you.

    Is Kazi Nasarul Islam a Bengali Poet or is he a Bangaldeshi Poet. Or is it possible for him to be classified as both. Would it suprise you that this eminent poet has equally strong following in Clacutta as he does in Dacca.

    With that in mind, can you elaborate as to why a Bangladesi’s can not not rightfully claim to be a Bengali.

    2. Are you volunteering to shag the radicalised Roshanara. You are welcome to her. I will stick to my dream girl Shabana Azmi.

    3. Perhaps you can explain why is it that only a very few significantly radicalised Muslims were seen to protest at the court. Where were all the other – quite normal – Muslims during the trial and sentencing. Has Mr Inayat Bungalawala, suddenly become camera shy or is it that this attrocity is just as much opposed by normal Muslims as it is by you and I.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    I am not a Bengali. I would think if Bengla Deshi’s considered themselves Bengalis, why would they split away from mother Bengal and become East Pakistan? Or, was their cutting away from West Pakistan, thir reafirmation of their Bengali culture?

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi , the difference is between you and me , one rationalist , the other a closet jihadi, if not jihadi then definitely beleives islam is the greatest and innutable , or shall we say just THE beleiver.
    Nazrul , married a hindu , named all his son hindu names , like aniruddha , sabyasachi , AND THE GREATEST BLASPHEMY HE WROTE BHAJANS ON GODDESS KALI . Oh yes he was born in Burdwan in west bengal. Oh another thing CIRCUMCISION IS MANDATORY in bangladesh , in west bengal it is only done for a condition called phimosis.Hope you got the message.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, their seccesion from pakistan , is because they were TREATED LIKE A COLONY , all the foreign exchange from jute going to west pakistan to fatten the punjabis.
    Also another thing I forgot to mention . You must be aware of BOSE MUSIC SYSTEM , thought to best in the world , cost around 2000 dollars. That Bose happens to be Amiya nath bose , his father emigrated to US , Amiya Bose was prof in MIT.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi (most definitely circumcised for religious reason) , how many jews in hard numbers actually carried out the gassing , that the others remained silent made them WILLING EXECUTIONERS. In fact one pakistani origin british muslim wrote in The Guardian , letter to the editor, after 9/11 , that most if not all the muslims he knows supports Al Quida , though they will not say that in public for obvious reasons.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    That is the myth that has been propagated — peaceful people, but a few who hijacked.the Book condones…And what really happens? where do they get money? Who contributes? Many “Islamic charities” here in US were investigated and shut down because money was collected from “moderates” (I think that is an oxymoron ,, all are closet jehadis) and funnelled to OBL and Aman Al- Zawhiri. Who shelters them? Fat cat Punjabi Muslims in Islamabad.

    And then theer are people like Zia “if only you understand and not fear..” my f–t

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    Once again I notice you called me names.

    So here is pay back in kind. You are a Saffron Terrorist who is still in denial. You are a Hindu Fundo who takes delight in naming people for your own community and ignore the rest.

    I also notice that having adopted the high moral stool you turn out to be completely empty.

    Not one of the questions I posed you answered.

    I therefore expose you to be an ISLAMAPHOBE idiot a communalist.

    Many Bangaldeshi’s have as much right to be called a Bengali as do those who come from the Indian State of west Bengal.

    Please do continue to call me a a Muslim and a Jehadist. I like that, it gives me the licence to label you as a HINDU FUNDO, a IR-Rationalist, a COMMUNALIST.

    Just so that you know….Bhajans were written by Kabir, a Muslim Julhaya. Baba Frid’s bani is included in the Sikh’s holi book. Even Sahir Ludhianvi, wrote bhajans. The Muslim Folk singers of Rajasthan, The Manganyaars and The Langhas, sing Bhajans for their Hindu Patrons. That is the beauty of India. People like you want to destroy that and replace it with H I N D U Raj. I hope it never happens.

    So just in case you miss the point – as is your tendency to do so – Bengali people come from both sides of the border and not just from West Bengal.

    Accept it, Get over it and become a human being before you become a HINDU.

    Ravi Reply:

    BINOY

    Who is a real Punjabi.

    A Sikh/Hindu from Amritsar or a Musalman from Lahore.

    Once you answer this, you will have answered you own question.

    ram autar Reply:

    FOR THE ATTENTION OF MR HEGDE AND SHAN,As newspaperman we had the opportunity to visit a number of “scientific research institutes” and meet “scientists”. We have no private research in India. All that we have are govt-owned. Bangalore has the country’s “most famous” scientific institution — Indian Institute of Science (IISc).

    Brahminical fortress: But what is the result? Did any Indian win any Nobel Prize? None after India became “independent”. Why scientific research is lagging despite all the state funding?

    “Grass-eating monkeys pose as scientists with Russian know-how”) by Com. Ayyankali partly answers this question.

    The answer is: If science has to flourish, the people who go into it must have a scientific temper. Those without a scientific temper cannot become scientists.

    The IISc in Bangalore is a mile away from our office and we have visited it umpteen times. IISc is a well-funded Brahminical fortress from top to bottom and to these Brahminists their religion and caste are more important than science.

    As the Brahminists are also India’s rulers, they have killed the very scientific temper and the science died even before it was born.

    That is why India is last (it is last in everything else except boasting) in science.

    As the Indians have lost trust in anything made in India, they go for every thing that is foreign including foreign cars.

    Vedic value system: That is how India is lagging in scientific research. The Brahminists will never, ever give up their anti-science belief system. Because the moment they give up their vedic value system, they lose the country’s leadership to which they are not ready. So, they put their vedic values above the country. The country may suffer. Who cares? They get their fat salary, big bungalow, plenty of perks, foreign jaunts.

    On the top of that, periodically they organise a well-publicised award-giving ceremony. “A” gives the award to “B” and after two months “B” gives another award to “C”. Both “C” and “B” join and give an award to “A”. The merry-go-round goes on. People are fooled. The country gets cheated. So what? They don’t lose anything. They fool the people and continue to get awards and rewards.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Ram, my Muslim friend,

    i am so glad you are making sure our institutions are functioning well. Thank you for your attention

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Would you like me to name Hindu Charities in the USA who contribute to the activities of Terrorist RSS.

    Just ask and I will supply you with details.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    There are more than 1 Billion Muslims in the world.

    If – as you contend – they are ALL closet Jehadi’s, then God Bless this world.

    I suggest you think again. You should be good with numbers, after all you are an Engineer.

    Or you are just a prejudiced young man who has completely lost his sense of proportion.

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    I am not circumcised either for religious reasons or for reasons of Kinkiness.

    However, I rather be circumcised than be decapitated like you. I would have only lost my foreskin rather than have lost my head, like you have.

    Please do continue name calling, I am a street fighter and would relish a good fight.

    Vinay Reply:

    “Who is a real Punjabi. A Sikh/Hindu from Amritsar or a Musalman from Lahore. ”

    I thought people from Lahore used to be Persians and now Arabs!

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay/Binoy or why not just Binay

    Ha ha ha.

    I get your point about a recent tendency among Pakistani muslims to fabricate their heritage by suggesting that they are decendants of Persians/Arabs.

    That is so sad and laughable.

    However, the point remains. Punjabi’s are Hindu/Sikh/Muslim and that the state of Punjab is divided as is the state of Bengal.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    RAvi

    You can name any charity, and i am sure there are a lot who may be contributing to RSSS. But US treasury has not stopped them like CAIR etc that funneled money to ISlamic Charity (that directd then to Al Queda).

    And what is wrong with somebody being Islamaphobe? IAt a basisc level, it is their fundamental right as longa sthey do not incite violence. ISlamists have created this situation. They are perpetuating this situation. 20 years ago you would have had 100 Islamophobes. Today 70% of USA is Isamophobes..The whole country became ‘red” based on Islmophobia. So also most of the world.. Ask your brothers to change first. They created this!

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    Problem with being an Islamaphobe is that it is grossly unsatisfactory.

    It teaches you to hate rather than understand.

    In your heart of heart you know that only a minority of Muslims are radical and therefore crypto terrorist. I do not like terrorism, but I do spend a lot of time trying to understand why will it any one resort to or be exploited to commit atrocities. As I have mentioned before that the answer lies (if not completely then partially) in Middles East policies of USA, their exploitation of OIL, etc.

    There is an element of truth that at present all terrorists are Muslims but all Muslims are not terrorists.

    Just as not all Hindus are Fundo’s. Political Hinduism is doing damage to my very noble religion, just as political Islam is damaging the rest of Islam.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, one has the right to be an Islamophobe. But one does not have the right to explode bombs, carry fissile material in his /her cavities (I guess it is his right– but to explode is not, but then who cares, u r dead and gone) .

    It is your right to equivocate what Islamists are doing to whatever you think RSS is doing. World is focused on Islamic terrorist activities — together with their drug relations, and MAosit relation (not communist–chinese will kick them out). Through that you think you are “normalizing” what these Muslim extremists are doing, while elevating what RSS is doing. The moment RSS operatives go to US and UK and Europe and Pakistan and Somalia and Afghanistan and start exploding, I will be with you!

    Ravi Reply:

    BINAY

    We stay Poles Apart.

    We will never be with each other.

    I will let you have the last word, so choose it carefully. So long as you do not call me names. I will not respond.

    Regards

    Ravi

    ram autar Reply:

    Nazrul , married a hindu , named all his son hindu names , like aniruddha , sabyasachi , AND THE GREATEST BLASPHEMY HE WROTE BHAJANS ON GODDESS KALI . Oh yes he was born in Burdwan in west bengal. Oh another thing CIRCUMCISION IS MANDATORY in bangladesh , in west bengal it is only done for a condition called phimosis.Hope you got the message.

    nazrul was revolutionary poet,IN SPITE OF THISHE WAS STARVED TO DEATH BY BRHMNST OF BENGAL.many people wrote letters to ajoy mukherjee about this.
    he was surviving on rs 300 per month coming from then east pakistan.it is only he who commited blashphemy first couplet i wrote to my bengalee tigress was also like this,

    dekh ke sawnlee soorat is matwali kee
    hoon mussalman par kah utha,par kahe utha
    jai kali kee,jai kali kee,jai kali kee.

    national anthem of bangladesh is written by rabindranath tagore.

    vande matram a notorious anti-muslim song written by terrorist,collaborator bankim chatterjee was taken as our national song.

    this is called brhmnsm.that is entire southeast converted either to budhhdism or found liberation in islam.

    ram autar Reply:

    they split away because of continous brhmncl exploitation and loot.after leaving them ,they are progressing like anything.many field they have already west bengal.

  • ram autar

    dear binoy u ahve recommended no contracts to muslims,for us this is nothing new.this is the tragic, blood-curdling history of Hindu India. This history has been repeating — endlessly centuries after century.
    If any good-hearted, far-sighted, impartial, noble historian were to come in future, she or he can write the sordid, atrophied, violent, criminal past of hindu India only in letters of blood.

    [Reply]

  • ram autar

    mr binoy obama ( mubarak hussain bu,amama) has left for india will reach here tommorow.As this is written Brahminism and Islam, the centuries- old enemies are again on the collision course. However, a bloody nuclear war looming over the sub-continent has gone to background as India found itself friendless in the world.
    In this war frenzy, India’s Hinduists looked weak and divided. Even the recent Islamic terrorist attack on Bombay has gone to background.
    This is because the . The Indian Govt. also knows it. That is why it is not ready to be swayed by the micro-minority war-mongers. The Manmohan Singh Govt. is hesitating though the war-mongering Brahminists are craving for “hate, revenge, blood and bomb.i dont know when their thurst for blood will be quenched.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan,
    yes, I read and write Bengali quite well; though I am out of practice with writing.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, like to know what you think about physical decolonisation of india having taken place , but mentally indians are totally enslaved. I will give you an example. I dont know if you watched in NDTV , barkha dutt , hosting this book release ceremony in london school of economics.This was about NK Singh(former finance sec) ’s book. Two things. First is a book about India , why it needed to be hosted in LSE with montek, mukesh ambani in the podium .Second is some white guy(presumably a prof in LSE) walks into the podium towards the *** end, AND BARKHA JUST LIKE LIKE A COOLIE VACATES HER CHAIR AND IS STANDING IN A CORNER. Next is the book. I thought well lets read it and see what pearl of wisdom it has. i went to my local library to order it.Now despite having been launched in london NOT A SINGLE INSTITUTION IN UK HAS BOUGHT IT. Well as they say about UK , “down but not out”" , now hold your breath , my local library managed to get it as a loan from Univ Of Michigan!!!!!!!. The intellectual merit of this book is same as the literary merit of ” THOMMO ” by that australian fast bowler. In fact I couldn’t go through that book till the end , it was so bad. I will be eagerly waiting your response.Oh yes , that tentul (tamarind) slave Resul pokutty during Oscars , I felt really ashamed when he uttered those lines “History has been made today , I am witnessing history” or something thereof

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    mental enslavement- now that to me is jargon.
    Not aware of this book release ceremony. But, today most books strive to find an international audience; which means that if you release it in UK (in your example), you will like to have it spoken well off by folks who are well thought of/ well known in that milieu.
    See in the olden days, intellectuals survived on royal patronage. Today, they need “market patronage”. So long as we accept that we live in a capitalist system, we need to be able to sell our wares/ make ourselves acceptable to a significant section of your market/ electorate. It is as true of Shah Rukh Khan as it is true of Ram Guha or Arundhati Roy or Narendra Modi or Nitish Kumar or Barkha Dutt.
    As an aside, that to me explains largely why the Anandabazar group and its journalists are so much in favour of the cross-border “bhai-chara”- the number of folks reading and writing Bengali is more on the other side of the border- it is a bigger market.
    So, what you see as obeisance to a white man, I see it as genuflection to the market-deity. IMHO, the skin-colour may not figure in the calculations at all.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    ASHISH

    Well siad.

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish,That is your opinion and that’s fine.I think it is bizarre to expect a market of such a third grade book that too on indian economy in UK.I dont know if you are There are more takers of Jeffrey , caught with a hooker Archer in India than USA,and that is a fact according to sales figures.The point about mental enslavement is very important . As you professed to able to read bengali ,I suggest you read Tin Kuri Dos ,by the late retired ICS Ashok Mitra. It makes you puke at the smugness of his memoir,a la brown sahib. You have to grant that from my vantage point I have more interaction with the world at large. In one school in UK there are students speaking SEVENTY different mother tongue. What has been shown by research in USA is that the single impediment to the progress of black children is lack of self confidence and self beleif. They have led a gutter life for so long , they cannot imagine anything possible for them.As for Ananda bazar patrika , what you write may be partly true , though apparently they dont get a single rupee , because PIRATING is the norm .The behaviour of the scribes in Patrika has lot more to do with the fact that they all hail from that part of the world , as they liked to say AMAGO DAISH

  • syed

    Why is it that it is considered perfectly right and honorable to fight, kill and die for one’s country, cutting across religious lines but not for one’s religion, cutting across country lines? Especially for a country having ppl of only one religion.

    Bear in mind that the reverse was true not so very long ago.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Syed

    You raise an interesting point, even if it is a bit disingenuous.

    In international law, and various conventions covering such conduct, a Nation State is able to declare a war against another Nation State. Such a war is confined to a geographically defined theatre of war.

    So USA can declare war against Iraq – however immoral such a war may be. NATO Soldiers did not go around killing Bathist Iraqis in living in London.

    However, I am not sure if a religion – for example Islam – can declare a war either against another religion – for example Judaism, or a Nation State, such as USA.

    Islam – or a version of it – seems to be waging a war against WEST, which is a group of Nation States. Such a war is new and we as yet have not worked out what is the theatre of such a war and who are its targets.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi ,Kofi annan while he was sec general,, said in no uncertain terms in response to an interview in chanel 4 , that IRAQ WAR WAS ILLEGAL.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Syed bhai, this is an excerpt form the full interview of Roshanara Choudhury with police that appeared in The Guardian.
    Q.Where did you find that out from
    A.You tube video by Sheikh Abdullah Azzam
    Q.And what was he saying.
    A.He was sayingthat when a muslim is attacked it becomes obligatory on every man , woman and CHILD and even SLAVE to go out and fight and defend the land and the muslims, and if they cant handle like the forces they are facing ,then it becomes obligatory to people living closest to that country , and if they cant then the next and then the next until it goes all the way round the whole world .
    Q.So where in Quoran does it say that you should go and kill someone
    A.Erm,the main chapters about it are chapter….chapter eight and chapter nine I think.
    Now this muddled girl who according to my diagnosis needed some Freudian therapy, needed to be informed THAT HER ALL THOSE AUNTS AND GRANDMOTHERS IN BANGLADESH WHO HAVE RAPED WERE RAPED BY MUSLIMS.And your country was liberated from that genocide and mass rape by NON MUSLIMS , albeit with small self interest.
    perhaps she needed to be reminded IRAN IRAQ war was between muslims, saudi recently demolished a fort built by the turks(part of saudi was once a colony of ottomans, and lawrence of arabia helped FAIZAL to drive out the turks) as this represented colonisation.
    Also after Egypt lost seven days war with Israel , to redeem its prestige ATTACKED LIBYA TO get hold of its oil resouces.
    also somebody should have sent her a DVD of the movie MARKET starring Monisha Koirala ,which showed Arabs sixty plus coming to hyderabad for nikah (read only sex as they vanish, and it is happening with saudis all over the world and the mullahs have come up with a new terminology for this kind of one night stand and authenticated under the aegis of quoran) with thirteen year old.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ravi,
    Not talking of the de jure position.

    I am looking for answers from the moral perspective, how one position is considered abhorrent and the other respectable and maybe indeed desirable.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SYED

    Morally speaking all forms of war are abhorrent.

    There is no moral consensus on what is a JUST WAR.

    I am sure, in an academic sense, a moral argument can be made by which the war against the Third Reich can be shown to have been immoral.

    Not sure I could subscribe to such an argument.

    But what is happening now is not clear cut. Al Qaeda and its associates are waging a war against the West as well as other fellow Muslims. It is a hotchpotch of Political and Religious motives being pursued by a bunch of disparate groups who wish to blast the world back to medieval Middle Eastern society.

    This is neither morally nor legally defendable.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Syed,

    There is no difference at all between some “patriot” saying “My country right or wrong”, and some religious fundamentalist saying, “I will kill or die for my religion”. NO difference.

    Nation state is to the patriot what religion is to the fundamentalist. A religious fundamentalist would accept that some mistakes may have happened due to misguided elements, but never that the core content of their respective religion is rotten. They will always believe that their religious beliefs are worth dying and killing for.

    Similarly a fundamentalist patriot would be ok with saying that this or that government is corrupt , or that mistakes have been made… BUT at the core the state is benign.

    These are both belief systems, which have some assumptions, that cannot be questioned. To keep the “faith” both have bhajans and other devotional songs and symbols. Be it the religious symbols or praying… or be it singing the national anthem, or national flag as a symbol, or supporting Team India in cricket matches….

    Like all belief systems, they both demand blood from its supporters or from their opponents. Like all belief systems, it soon makes the human believer a slave to the belief, where he/she is incapable of seeing right from wrong.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Well, nation-state is not a figment; it is the basis of modern systems of government, currency, trade, employment, living, resource allocation (or exploitation) etc..A citizen of a nation state has rights as wella s responsibilities that can be enforced by the laws of the country. There is nothing like that for religion, other than ones own internal motivations.

    It looks like that a system based on nation-state is “more” lasting than any other system.. The quest of freedom, sovereignty etc is based on a national aspiration (for most people) than a religious aspiration. the religious aspiration for most, except Muslims, is live and let live.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Syed

    I agree with Ravi, that all wars are bad., including just wars. Second World War was a just war, but a bad war. The great war of our own epics, the Kurkhetra war or “Bharath yudh” , was a just war, but left the country with widows and orphans.

    Syed, when does one belonging to a religion fight, and against whom? What triggers a man of religion to fight for the religion? Are you implying “crusades” when you say reverse was true in the past,?

    It is Muslims’ stupidity to take any event in any Muslim land (that term itself is an oxymoron) as an affront against their religion. Has US , or any western country for that, had done anything against Islam – such as not allowing muslims in their countries, not allowing them places of worship, not allowing them practice of their religion etc. (in fact wht adherents of other religions should do is to fight KSA to allow religious freedoms)

    I think it is Ok from an individual Muslim’s perspective to fight against a country if that country has threatened to nuke or nuked the most important place of worship of Islam. But not in the case if that place of worship was harbouring terrorists and mass murderers.

    As a part of oil control, US or China may take over KSA or Iran. As long as they leave Mecca and Qom etc the way it was, I do not think any Muslim should have any beef about these. Obviously, a Saudi or Iranian should consider this as an invasion on their freedom and sovereignty. But it should not and is not a religious war.

    Islam has to come out of the medieval notions of Dar ul Harb and dar ul islam, Kauffer and infidels etc.. Today’s world simply cannot be carved out as Islamic land and others.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    affront against their religion. Has US , or any western country for that, had done anything against Islam

    tell my why shah rukh khan was humiliated.did pakistan or matter of fact saudi arabia ever insulted any christian like this.

    zoinist media is playing this game.they are nobody friend.tell one book written by muslim against against jesus christ of hindu gods.
    they are running institutions.have written more than 60000 books.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    For those who wonder, who they are.

    Baba Bulleh Shah, asked himself the very same question. This is how he described his quest.

    Bullah ki jaana maen kaun

    Na maen momin vich maseet aan
    Na maen vich kufar diyan reet aan
    Na maen paakaan vich paleet aan
    Na maen moosa na pharaun.

    Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun

    Na maen andar ved kitaab aan,
    Na vich bhangaan na sharaab aan
    Na vich rindaan masat kharaab aan
    Na vich jaagan na vich saun.

    Bulleh! ki jaana maen kaun.

    Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki
    Na maen vich paleeti paaki
    Na maen aabi na maen khaki
    Na maen aatish na maen paun

    Bulleh!, ki jaana maen kaun

    Na maen arabi na lahori
    Na maen hindi shehar nagauri
    Na hindu na turak peshawri
    Na maen rehnda vich nadaun

    Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun

    Na maen bheth mazhab da paaya
    Ne maen aadam havva jaaya
    Na maen apna naam dharaaya
    Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun

    Bulleh , ki jaana maen kaun

    Avval aakhir aap nu jaana
    Na koi dooja hor pehchaana
    Maethon hor na koi siyaana
    Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun

    Bulla, ki jaana maen kaun

    Baba Bulleh Shah 1680 -1757

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Syed

    Shia sect seems to be more “eastern” contemplative. Any way Sunnis can relate if not absorb this? Looks like Shias dont go bombing like Sunnis

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shias are exploding bombs in iraq karachi.wherever there is america these things happens.
    rss their local agent in india explodes bomb.golwalkar was caught with explosives in 1930 in meerut..now his progenies ar in jail.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Shan,
    Scientific & social progress suffers if we give too much importance to religion (any religion). Muslims are unfortunate in giving too much importance to religion. There is an interesting short essay by Abdel-Samad which just might turn out true.
    http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2706&Itemid=594

    @Ravi
    Correct that morally all forms of war are abhorrent. The USA can declare war against Iraq which as you said is confined to a geographic area just because it is much better for the US to fight its battles away from its own land. On what logic can you expect the Iraqi resistance to be bound by the definition of “geographical area?”? Of course you would have “collateral damage” in the US if the Iraqi Al queda brings its battles to American shores (as there have been millions of such collateral damages in Iraq). However why is one type is socially sanctioned and not the other?

    @Bobby
    There is no difference at all between some “patriot” saying “My country right or wrong”, and some religious fundamentalist saying, “I will kill or die for my religion”. NO difference.
    These are both belief systems, which have some assumptions, that cannot be questioned… they both demand blood from its supporters..

    That about says it!

    @Binoy
    Some would say that Nation states have had their day and now it’s going to be the era of large multinational corporations to replace such entities.

    @Gopi
    I think extremely few muslims go for the argument that their religion is in being attacked.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    @Syed

    Do not understand your logic on Iraq war. What you mean by “Iraqui resistance bound by geographical area”. Iraquis have the right to go after USA anywhere, any form; be it US military or civilians. But no other third parties, like Pakistanis or Al Queda, Saudis on behalf of Iraquis.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby and Syed, “There is no difference between SOME patriot…………”.Well it is some patriot.There are many patriot like me who are RATIONAL HUMANIST, who approach things from a rationalist point of view. To whom patriotism is also a rational”self interest”.As one japanese citizen said “If my country become rich I become rich”. patriotism to us is not defined by pakistan or any other country bashing.patriotism to us is defined by the feeling for our fellow citizens within the defined geographical border(as much pinko pseudo liberals want that to disappear ,it aint going to go away) with whom we do definitely have lot of common in mutual interest and taste and appreciation and fondness of cuisine, culture etc. That is why lot of our discussion centres around HOW TO LIFT MILLIONS OF FELLOW INDIANS OUT OF POVERTY and make India a country which reflects our value system of rationality and humanism.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Thanks Shan, you (as always) proved my point.

    “If my country become rich I become rich”

    Yeah thats the kind of brainwashing irrational nonsense i was talking of. Same reason why morons celebrate Ambani becoming third richest or second richest man in the world. This is the kind of nonsense that HAS to be accepted.

    It has to be accepted by the people being displaced by the government- be it in Chattisgarh or in the Narmada valley, that its in their self interest that they are losing their land, their source of income etc… This has to be either swallowed by them, or they have to be forcefullty made to accept it… (all in the interest of the nation of course)

    Thats why you have the ridiculous and disgusting practice of playing the national anthem in a movie hall (of all the places!).. and calling some one not supporting Team India as an “anti-national”

    “patriotism to us is defined by the feeling for our fellow citizens within the defined geographical border”

    I dont see much of that to be honest. I dont see people on the streets in delhi and bombay protesting Indian army actions in the north east or Kashmir… I dont see too many protests about farmers committing suicides either.

    If there are people who raise their voice, they are called anti-national and traitors etc…

    The fact is patriotism like all other isms, are used by the ruling class to justify their oppression by doing everything they do in the name of “the Nation” and “the common national interest”…. yes the “common interest” of a farmer committing suicide in Maharasthra and Ambani…

    If you can believe in such a ridiculous proposition that they can have a “common interest”

    Just like rulers in earlier times, have used religion and other excuses to do what is in their interest and then call it “common religious interest”

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Every body has a number of identities, for example:

    1. National
    2. Religious
    3. Regional
    4. Linguistic
    5. Sub-linguistic.
    6. Etc.

    These identities often overlap and have a hierarchical structure. There are agencies who try to created dynamics whose objective is to strengthen some and weaken other identities or change their structure within a society.

    By an large most people will fell their National identity to be the strongest, followed by religious identity.

    In the context of current issues between certain elements of Islam and The West, it seems that an attempt is being made for Muslims to believe that their Religious identity super cede their National identity. The mechanism of Umma is being used to realise this change. It this phenomenon of Religious identity being felt so strongly felt by an individual, that they indulge in behaviours which appear irrational to outsiders. Roshanara Choudhary stabbing Stephen Timms in UK is a classical example where Roshanra’s religious fervour transcended her weakened National Identity. She felt greater empathy with a Yemini Imam rather than an MP from her own country.

    Islam is unique in this respect, that it is actively changing the hierarchy of identities; it aims to weaken an individual national identity and supplant on top of it their religious identity.

    This experiment has a long way to go yet. It breaks down in areas such as Kurdistan and the Sunny Shia divide.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Binoy

    Before you ask, can some translate it into English.

    Here it is.

    Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
    Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
    Not the pure amongst the impure
    Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    Not in the holy Vedas, am I
    Nor in opium, neither in wine
    Not in the drunkard`s craze
    Niether awake, nor in a sleeping daze

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    In happiness nor in sorrow, am I
    Neither clean, nor a filthy mire
    Not from water, nor from earth
    Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    Not an Arab, nor Lahori
    Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri
    Hindu, Turk (Muslim), nor Peshawari
    Nor do I live in Nadaun

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    Secrets of religion, I have not known
    From Adam and Eve, I am not born
    I am not the name I assume
    Not in stillness, nor on the move

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    I am the first, I am the last
    None other, have I ever known
    I am the wisest of them all
    Bulleh! do I stand alone?

    Bulleh! to me, I am not known

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Binoy
    Well, “geographical area” was in response to what Ravi had earlier writtren…In international law, and various conventions covering such conduct, a Nation State is able to declare a war against another Nation State. Such a war is confined to a geographically defined theatre of war….

    Now we are getting into interesting territory. As per what you have said , Iraqis are justified in going after the US. But what would you say about those who feel that the US has attacked ARABS & not Iraqis? Maybe someone who does not believe in the conventional concept of a country (bear in mind that the borders of most countries are very recent construct). What if someone does not recognize a country but recognizes a race? Can this not be a logical position also?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Syed

    Whilst Nation States are very recent and in many cases arbitrary, they are the only viable construct we have. Most nations in Africa are not tribally, but colonially defined. Rwanda and Brundi come to mind. Hutus from both countries identify with each other more than they identify with their Nation.

    I understand that RACE can be a basis for a strong identity, but try defining a Race in such a way that every individual can identify themselves as a member of a race in an unambiguous way. Almost an impossible task, wouldn’t you say. It is tragic to note from WWII literature as to how many Jewish people tried to pass themselves off as Aryans as a part of their survival strategy.

    Even Religion as a basis of strong distinguishable identity is not free from complications. Hinduism itself is a very loosely defined religion.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ravi, nation states are not recent construct except perhaps in africa. The jews were taken slave by egyptians and babylonians, defined geographical boundary, language and religious practice , perhaps physical appearance defined different nations. All that you have written is what Togadia has been saying , muslims need to prove they dont have arab blood by DNA tests. So much for your Hindu Fundoo bashing.Take for instance English. Who is english, as I understand the main criteria is you must be white, christian preferably church of england , and scream from the top of your roof England England, because english are a hotch potch of several races.Also sense of nationhood is found only in highly devoloped and powerful socities, the more primitive and tribal , you cannot come out of the cubbyhole and feel the nationalism. Indians have zero sense of nationhood , because it is Khichdi , also the poorer and less acheiving , the less is the attachment and pride in its national identity.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    The self proclaimed RATIONALIST AND HUMANIST. Ha Ha Ha.

    You don’t know the meanings of the word. Your basic instincts are those of a HINDU FUNDO. That is because you are a H I N D U …F U N D O.

    Here are some of you rational statements.

    1. (as much pinko pseudo liberals want that to disappear ,it aint going to go away)

    2. also somebody should have sent her a DVD of the movie MARKET starring Monisha Koirala ,which showed Arabs sixty plus coming to hyderabad for nikah (read only sex as they vanish, and it is happening with saudis all over the world and the mullahs have come up with a new terminology for this kind of one night stand and authenticated under the aegis of quoran) with thirteen year old.

    3. @Ashish,That is your opinion and that’s fine.I think it is bizarre to expect a market of such a third grade book that too on indian economy in UK.I dont know if you are There are more takers of Jeffrey , caught with a hooker Archer in India than USA,and that is a fact according to sales figures.The point about mental enslavement is very important .

    USA/AUSTRALIA/CANADA/IRAQ/IRAN/TURKEY/ISRAEL/Most Countries in Latin America, etc etc are relatively new. In other words less than a 100 years old. The relative is meant to be in comparison to other forms of organisations such as Religion/Tribe, etc.

    TOFADIA, do me a favour….the guy is a complete idiot, just like you are.

    Indians are a HOTCHPOTCH of races. Just because you bare your JUNJU in a COVENTRY temple and stoke you over bloated tummy does not make you a pure Brahmin. It just makes you an over fed HINDU FUNDO, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE.

    Remember I said to Y O U, two can play this game.

    Your suggestion that INDIANS do not feel a strong National Identity is laughable. Over the last 60 plus years, the cohesion of India has grown and not only Indians take a great deal of pride in being Indian. Pakistani’s abroad are passing themselves as Indians.

    The reason why that gets stuck in your gullet is because you favour, like RSS, the notion of HINDU identity over and above INDIAN identity. Jai Hind, and down with HINDU FUNDOS like you.

    I suggest that you think and check you facts before you come of your **** hole.

    Ravi Reply:

    In my previous post I meant to 1000 years and not 100 as it apperas.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    What people are passionate, identify with etc also depends where you are. For example, an immigrant from Tamil Nadu part of India to US will most probably a member of the local Tamil Sangam. An immigrant from the Andhra region will be a member of TANA. A Malayali most probably of kerala Association, and a Kanandiga most probably of Kannata koota. Part of the motivation is of course to get the children learn the language. Tamil Sangams here organize a spectacular annual music festival, Thyagaraja Music festival, a one week long function at the Case Western Univ in Cleveland, where they bring Carnatic musicians from all over North Maerica and from India.

    Now, an inteersting observation – I have been to many of these groups’(and Pan India type) celebrations; I have yet to bump into a Indian Muslim in these meetings; (of course I have not interacted with all in these meetings). I bump into many christians (from their names) in all these (especially Kerala Association and Tamil Sangams), and in India Association meetings; but never an Indian Muslim.

    shan Reply:

    @Binoy, the answer is simple really. There aint many muslim indian in US. Also you failed to mention bengalees they also congregate on the occasion of Durga Puja festivals. As all these functions have religious flavour that may be the reason why indian muslims are not seen. Have you watched the film LOINS OF PUNJAB , set in New Jersey , about a music ccompetition , it showed muslims in proportionate number to the ones in India. It is a must see film.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan durga puja used to be secular festival 20 yrs ago i used to attand it as it is mine .
    last 2 decades everything is devided into yrs and mine.

    ram autar Reply:

    shan cut and paste about v.s naipul,

    “Barbarity of the Brahmin” as described by two Brahmin writers
    V.S. Naipaul, himself a Brahmin whose ancestors had settled abroad centuries ago, gained international celebrity status when he wrote the book, Wounded Civilisation portraying “Hindu India” as a stupid, idiotic country ruled by his own jatwalas.

    While he gained name and fame from his literary achievements, his jatwalas in India became furious and denounced him as a third rate writer because he honestly condemned Brahmins as topclass frauds. This made the Brahmin in Naipaul to mellow and realise as he grew old that if he continued jabbing at his jatwalas the “Jews of India” would prevail over Jewish-controlled Nobel Foundation to deny him the Nobel prize. The Brahmin in Naipaul prevailed and he started praising the Brahmins. By then it was too late. Naipaul got the award after he started praising Brahmins. The Brahmin in him killed the genius in him.

    Beef-eating Brahmin: We are reproducing a passage from his book, Wounded Civilisation, in which he exposed the Brahmin hypocrisy and dwelt on the strong anti-Brahmin fury prevailing in India. Naipaul was impressed with the novel of a fellow Karnataka Brahmin writer who too in his younger days married a Christian girl, ate beef, sang Lohia lullabies and the Brahmin media boosted him sky-high and hailed him as “socialist savant”.

    Topclass frauds: Soon the Brahmin in him prevailed and turned him into a “Socialist Brahmin” who is more dangerous than a “Sacred Brahmin”. (Read our book, Socialist Brahmin vs. Sacred Brahmin, DSA-).

    His Kannada book, Samskara, Naipaul says, very beautifully portrays the “Brahminic barbarity” and the Brahmins as topclass frauds.

    The problem with the Brahmin is very serious. No Brahmin has so far been able to get over this dotage — the victim of his own sick society.

    During his younger days the Brahmin is fired by the youthful idealism and he turns a marxist, naxalite, maoist, anarchist, atheist and what not. That is how M.N. Roy, the Bengali Brahmin, became founder of the Indian Communist Party and advocated wholesale Hindu conversion to Islam to liberate India from Brahminism (Read his book, The Historical Role of Islam, photocopy available with DV).

    S.A. Dange, Chairman of the Communist Party, as he grew old came to the conclusion that “all the wisdom of Karl Marx came from the Vedanta”, for which he was expelled from the party itself. The Marathi Brahmin died a vedantist.

    Look at the mischievous Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer who fell in love with Dalits and successfully duped both Dalits and Muslims but continued to mouth socialist slogans.

    The “famous” E.M.S. Namboodiripad died as an orthodox marxist Brahmin (Edit Nov.16, 2009: “EMS was Brahmin first, communist next: Cheated Dalits, BCs, Muslims & destroyed Kerala”).

    Jawaharlal Nehru, the fire-eating socialist, out of love for his Kashmiri Brahmins, fought a war with Pakistan for the sake of his jatwalas and permanently put the Himalayan state in thrishanku swarga —despite the UN verdict that Kashmir is a “disputed territory”.

    Caste above the country: We have not came across one Brahmin who has been honest with his conscience because the sanskara does not permit him to go against his jati. This sanskara is hanging right over his head like a dagger and throughout he lives with this fear. That is why to him his caste is greater than the country. Show us one Brahmin who has gone against the sanskara. This is the tragic story of a Brahmin which Naipaul relates here — EDITOR.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    What was the point you were trying to make.

    Are you suggesting that the minute Indian Muslims go to America, they start socialising with Pakistani Muslims.

    I hope you are not suggesting that.

    However as you know many many many Indian Muslims, not just in metropolitan cities but even in rural villages, do join in the celebrations of Diwali, etc.

    If people were left to their own devices they will participate in each others religious festivals, however over zealous Mullahs/Pandits, etc create atmosphere where this is becoming less and less possible.

    ram autar Reply:

    Are you suggesting that the minute Indian Muslims go to America, they start socialising with Pakistani Muslims

    this is right.our elite is same whether they live in karachi or lahore or delhi.division was most inhuman act.we will again become one.we are same same and same.geographical boundaries cannot keep us apart very long.like europe we will again become one.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, the mole of a particular country , this your liberal mind at work
    I understand that RACE can be a basis for a strong identity,
    This will receive a tumultous applause in a NEO NAZI CONVENTION , denying the existence of holocaust. Also Togadia will recommend you for a life membership in VHP , because it reinforces his argument and they are in total resonance with his words and they are
    Togadia has been saying , muslims need to prove they dont have arab blood by DNA tests

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    So abuse did not work, lets twist words.

    I am a LIBERAL, I have stated it many times. I am proud of it.

    However you are a CLOSET HINDU FUNDO, who is deperately trying to rebrand himself as a Rationalist Humanist. Togadia is your Guru isn’t he.

    Let alone RACE even a SPORTS CLUB can become a basis of strong identity, in fact sociologists treat behaviour or sports fans as a TRIBAL behaviour. Major sports clubs have fans around the world and not just the country where the club is located.

    Sadly Coventry does not have a big successful club, does it.

    RATIONALIST HUMANIST my left foot, do me a favour. YOU are a HINDU FUNDO.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, by your logic you and me should have a shared identity , we both adore shabana azmi, and as ashish likes to put it RIGHT.
    WRONG.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    Sadly I hope I share nothing with you, not even the air we breathe.

    I will happily fore go my adoration of Shabana, if it results in us becoming that much more different than we are.

    As I said, I am a Liberal and you are a Hindu Fundo

    Vive La Difference

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, One thing I definitely cannot share with you , because you have none, and that is love for my janambhumi, which incidentally may not be yours which may be across the border.

    Ravi Reply:

    SHAN

    Keep dreaming in COVENTRY, you were sent there weren’t you.

    Your Janmbhoomi is richer for you not being there.

    Mr Togadia has a Trishul sharpenned and waiting for you.

    Ashish Reply:

    Syed,
    logical or not, it is very inconvenient ;-)
    A modern nation state is a controlled experiment in living in a certain way within physical/ contiguous boundaries, for its members. A certain amount of homegeneity (spell??) is what keeps it going.
    Cross-border influences/ allegiances especially those at odds with the objectives of the nation state, can complicate things- as they do!
    Supporting Manchester United while sitting in Manesar is harmless and mostly an affectation. But, dreaming of and working for a global Khilafat while sitting in Kanpur may put you at odds with the nation state.
    If the nation state feels threatened, it will work to put you behind bars or do nastier things to you.
    If the trans-border “force” wants to come to your aid, it will.
    I do not have an answer to your moral question; my answer is only to say that today, since the accepted wisdom in a vast majority of the world’s people seems to be in favour of nation states, those that support other centres of power, better know what they can cop!
    Thanks for posing the question, though. You frequently make me think.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ravi,
    Your post on identities is something I have felt but not been able to find the right words for. You have got it just exact to a T.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Bobby , ranting apart , yours is nothing but manifesto of a particular variety , and we all know what happened to one very verge large empire built on manifesto. It collapsed like a pack of cards. Ambani getting rich is not synonymous WITH INDIA GETTING RICH. Let me inform you about a passage from a book I have read at least THIRTY TIMES. The book is called “Made In Japan”, it is an autobiography of the founder of Sony Corp , AKIO MORITA. To me it is more important than any religious text.
    Morita was attending a function in paris, suddenly a jaw dropping piece of jewelery in the form of a necklace caught his eye.He went up to the lady and said what an incredible piece of art she is wearing. The husband (ROTHSCHILD) said “can I give the telephone no of my personal jeweller.
    Morita politely declined , now mark his words”I am rich but I am not wealthy”. Hope you got the message. Now let me enlighten you and ashish as well about the genesis of Indian business houses(that is what they are , like the feudals in pakistan).Nirad Choudhuri in his book “Thou hand great anarch”, narrates this scene which pretty well sums up how the business class was created. Apparently when gandhi was staying in calcutta in Sarat Bose’s Elgin Road House , womenfolk from BIRLA HOUSEHOLD , came to visit gandhi. The first thing Gandhi said”BETI LOG HAMARE LIYE KUCH NEHI LAYI HO”. The women laid a wad of cash in front of the feet of gandhi. Doesn’t need gaussian hypothesis to work out who will get the share of the cake called india. Next is Ambani , sad to say A BENGALI congressi and bramhin has catapulted him to this height. Pucho kaisay, A little primer in business studies is needed. I dont know if you are aware nobody does business with his own money , it is mostly loan from bank or from capital market, in 1970 banks being nationalised was a harir loot. Now how did he do it. This is due the LICENSE PERMIT RAJ. If Govt gives you and you only to produce POLYESTER FIBRE as a MONOPOLY , the equipment and everything purchased with bank loan with no deadline to pay interest , does it need the greatest business acumen to turn it into success.THAT IS WHY NOT A SINGLE INVENTION HAS COME OUT OF ANY INDIAN COMPANY. Reliance Communication (not bad for a surgeon 5000miles away)
    uses samsung phones and has reliance inscribed on front, all the tramsmission eqipment is imported or SUPPLIED BY C-DOT(Govt research institution)
    Regarding that quote “if my country gets rich I get rich” , it was made by a japanese , and that thought process if we imbibe will do good for India. What it means coming to office at right time , staying back if needed to finish work , be polite and nice , give your best ,. Japanese were reknowned not to take any holidays, no wild cat strikes, basically work hard , which leads to higher productivity in every field , schools colleges , industry everything and imperceptively the country gets rich.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan, just saw your response to my previous post.
    I am not sure if we will make progress if we take such a broad canvas.
    What we need to strive for is a post-religious, post-caste identity- urbanization is an important driver in breaking down rigid identities and giving shape to new ones.
    By all means, study the past- by all means reject the customs that do not suit your living in the present.
    Nothing in life is so simple that it can be reduced to a simple us vs them- because in reality, “us” and “them” are very amorphous rather than crystalline.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, post religious is a non starter. Try telling this to AIMPLB. However the single most most important thing is PRODUCTION. PRODUCTION AND PRODUCTION. I know people will say the resources are not limitless. This is where I fall back upon Akio Morita , who said science holds the key to all the economic problems. A small example, I am sure you are aware in India the seed is sown (wheat) by scattering with hands and it is still the overwhelming practice. John Tine 200 yrs ago invented a machine which drops seeds at precise intervals and lays down in mind bogglingly dense neat rows(it need to be seen to be beleived). And there are countless such example I know personally . As the saying goes Petey Khaley Pithey Soy”. As an aside NOT A SINGLE BULLETIN IN CNN AND FOX NEWS EVEN MENTIONED ABOUT OBAMA’S INDIA VISIT TILL THE TIME OF POSTING THIS .

    [Reply]

  • Bobby
  • ram autar

    recently i was in iran.for for their population of 7 crores they are generating 60000 mw power.up has population of 17 crores generates 7000 megawatts.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Syed
    No “..isms (including patriotism) can be “justified”, when they override an innocent man’s (peaceful)existence. But some of those actions can be “understood”, some others can’t.

    Territorialism and strong possessive instincts do exist in human beings like any other animal (cats or dogs). A kid do get possessive/aggressive if some other kid sat on its mother. But most of the time, the evolved sensibilities and logic would mute our basic instincts. When we grow up, we develop possessive about our other identities as well (language, religion/culture, region). When a person gets “threatened” that his identity is under “attack”, he would retaliate. This process can be understood as his natural instinct. If his passion gets too intense, it would supersede his sensibilities and the man exhibits his raw wild nature. Bottom line is, there has to be a “threat to our identities to retaliate” (to go wild).

    We can understand when Tamils oppose Hindi Channels. We understand when Uighur people oppose Ham Chinese. We even understand if a Palestinian NOT born there still hates a Jew, as his identity was threatened and is deep rooted for generations. Each time, a different identity is under attack (language, region or a religion). But if our identities are not threatened, we don’t expect a friction. A Hindu from Karnataka will not go behind a Muslim in Tamilnadu. Religions do not induce passion in these two states, say like Gujrat. (These states never faced Muslim invaders or pain of partition). But just utter the word “Cauvery”, the devil inside us comes out. The furious mob’s “stone pelting and burning the shop psyche” can easily beat freedom movement of Kashmir. This “passion beyond the logic” towards one river (and the threat of “other” snatching “our thing” exists for generations. Conquering a country (in the case of America) and patriotism (for an Iraqi both fall in the same category (being induced in human psyche for generations).

    Coming to the case of Bangladeshi girl stabbing a UK MP .. there is nothing for Bangladeshi to feel possessive of Iraq. It was not “her territory” which was under attack. Nor her Muslim identity (like her holy place, holy book or the prophet) were under threat. (Muslims opposing Danish cartoon, Hindus opposing Hussein are the cases, where the community feels their “religious identity/symbol” being questioned). But this girl mixed up territorial threat with religious threat. Her passion and her retaliation impulses were not natural to her. It was “injected” by teachings/preachings. These injected instincts are not logically understandable as the instincts that are induced for generations.

    @Binoy, Shan
    On patriotism/nationality having more longevity than religion. Throughout the history the borders (of kingdoms) have been written and re-written. But most of the time, people have retained their religion. One of the reason for the first war of Indian independence was religious (biting the cartridge) . I think, the religious identity lives longer.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Vinay, I fully agree , well then as Voltaire has said “Literature has taken the rough edges out of man”
    regarding the bangladeshi girl, the problem was she was fed only one version of the history , only if she took a honest look at the history or rather the origin of her parents birthplace , she would have definitely become unsure of the steps she took.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    shan, when some nepalis were killed by mistake in iraq they have killed many muslims and attacked their mosques.muslims are weak otherwise ,there would have been many caseslike this.apart from being \bangladeshi ,she is human being as well, apart from national identity there is religious identity as well.may be some of her loved ones were killed there.i know atleast 2 east european girls who killed many americans in suicide attack,as their iraqi husbands were killed by them.
    showering a city with nuclear bombs,is not crime.christians of europe hate the zoinists far more than muslims,as they have more acces to their heinous crimes.criminal tony blair is greeted with shoes in european capital,not in dhaka.he was there recently there.

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  • Danish Hasan

    Mr Zia in your article you mentioned that some barbaric activities were conducted by the Muslim rulers of the past in India, such as, razing of temples, atrocities towards minorities, and the usage of Islam as a weapon. I totally disagree with this statement. It is a well established fact that Muslim rulers wherever they have ruled, have adopted the principles of equality, harmony and justice. In India since the time of Muhammad bin Qasim, the Delhi Sultans, and later on the Mughal era the Hindus were treated with great respect and harmony. Examples can be quoted of the sikh temple just beside the Badshahi Mosque in Lahore, and the fact that the foundation of the Golden Temple was laid by a Muslim sufi saint, Mian Mir, describe the tolerance shown by the Muslim rulers before partition. The Mughal ruler Akbar has been described as the most tolerant leader so far as going to create a seperate religion for hindu-muslim unity. The fact that hindus are in majority in India also suggests the tolerance shown by the Muslim rulers, they could have forcefully converted them to Islam. These are mere allegations put on by some conservative and orhodox hindus as they cannot digest the fact of Muslim rule and dominance.

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