Ayodhya verdict: faith accompli?



One need not pore into the 8,000 or so pages of the Ayodhya verdict to figure out that the three judges were determined to go beyond the parameters of a mere title suit.

There is no doubt that the bench over-reached itself by design. They did so, in all probability, to bring about some kind of closure to the case.

From initial conclusions flashed on news screens to a laborious reading of the detailed judgements, my view was and remains the same — there are two ways of looking at the judgement.

As a legal verdict, it could be seen as atrocious and over-reaching – one that exceeds its brief. At the same time, the 2-1 majority judgement refrained from pronouncing a maximal ruling one way or the other, thereby avoiding a fresh wedge between Hindus and Muslims.

The judgement exceeds its authority as it goes beyond the 1994 directive of the Supreme Court for determining the title to the disputed site. Indeed, it does what the Supreme Court had itself refused to do; declare whether it is Ram Janambhumi.

Why did the judges take upon themselves the task of deciding issues other than that of title? I assume that as legal professionals, they first took up the issue of the title.

Both the claims to title of Nirmohi Akhara and Sunni Wakf Board were rejected.

Why a third of the land to parties who could not prove their title? Justice Khan relied on legal precedents to settle this: “If exclusive ownership is claimed but joint ownership is proved, suit can be decreed for joint ownership.”

The judgement quotes other legal precedents to show than vexed suits for exclusive titles can and has been converted into partition suits.

The verdict has pronounced the place under the central dome of now-destructed mosque as the birthplace of Lord Ram, “as per faith and belief of Hindus”. This reliance on faith is being made out to be the verdict’s greatest infirmity.

It is a well-settled norm, as pointed out by one of the judges, that in a situation when both the parties fail to prove initial title, it is possession and possession alone which decides the question of title, in accordance with Section 110 of the Evidence Act.

In the present verdict, however, the word “possession”, wherever it occurs, seems to have been replaced with “faith”.

Muslims have been disappointed because they considered the title suit case to be just that and expected an outcome along the lines of a cut-and-dried civil suit, while the judges clearly did not. Unlike most rulings, the Ayodhya verdict was not feral in character i.e. untamed and dispassionate.

The judgement does gloss over key issues, like the illegality of the surreptitiously placing the idols beneath the central dome. Even if the Babri Masjid was built after demolishing a temple, the judgment ignores the universal law of Adverse Possession.

However, here are some facts about the judgement we must not overlook.

The majority verdict makes Hindus and Muslims joint title holders — binding rather than severing one of them. It allows Muslim and Hindus both to continue to be stakeholders. More importantly, the verdict does not dispossess any party, even though none could prove their claims to title.

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  • Gopi Thomas

    Zia, in addition to being a journalist, is also a constitutional and legal scholar. We cannot have it both ways – either we rely on the rule of law, with verdicts passed by courts, or we do not believe in the rule of law. Secularists cannot have it both ways.

    The case was not about the legality of somebody placing idols. There were three parties contesting the title, and the court awarded the title as it seems fit. The opinions of judges are just opinions; and should not be and cannot be portaryed as judgements

    Personally I applaud Justice Sharma’s courage to utter the unthinkable in this psuedo secular environment. i applaud Justice Khan for making scientific and pragmatic observations. We all should be proud that with all the decline we see around, we do have some b right and good minds at the top.

    The average Indian has fooled all these journalists who were looking for a field day/days of mayhem and violence…so they could have continued their cry on “secularism in danger’ “majority mafia rule” “Islam in danger” and the usual attack. We should congratulate the av erage Indian that he has now the capability to decide what is best for him and not listen to the doomsayers.

    It would have been easy to bestow the full title to the Hindu group, for before Babar, nobody will have a dispute as to whom the land belonged. History and title . I am not advocating we have to “rectify” titles for all disputed sites. But just do not take it too far when the whole claim and counterclaim become farce.

    “As legal verdict it satrocious and overreaching” — is this what a journalist whose job is to report to say?

    Ramayana is (I believe) the oldest poem written. Valmiki, a dalit turned great Rishi, was the first poet – Aadi Kavi.. Rama is embedded in Indian ethos. Whether one worships Rama or not, all these are all of India’s; not Hindus’ only.

    And there is nothing wrong in stating that Ayodhya is the birth place of Rama (that is what all the children read in stories in their childhood). There is also nothing wrong in stating that a particular location (where Muslims have not offered prayers for almost hundred years) is where Rama was born. Because, for once and for all, that issue gets settled, because Rama cannot be born in two different places.

    Looking for legal “purity” will result in calamities like in PAkistan where they are looking for Islamic purity.

    Indian opulace have defied the psuedo secularists, and that is a victory for all Indians.

    People like Maulayam should be arrested and packed to jail. He obviouisly wants the vote of the uneducated Muslims by fanning their passion that they lost in the case. Even if they lost, isnt it a normal out come that one party will win and another will lose? Who are all these people who have a clear legal and constitutional understanding to ake these declarations.. I can understand Maulyam making those statements. But Zia?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi, your ill tempered rant has little truth in it.

    To say that for aeons children have been told that Rama was born in Ayodhya, does not make it right. The very same children were also told the following:

    Sita was born of Earth.
    Ram was an all knowing God, but still he felt the need to publically test the chastity of his wife, Sita.
    Sita, was swallowed by Earth.
    Ravan had 10 heads
    Hanuman could lift a mountain
    Ravan could transform himself into a Deer, in order to lure Sita.

    By the way as a child I was told that Moon was my uncle. I believed it and still do, so I wonder if on that basis, I can lay a claim on the moon.

    I am glad to say that most children are able to differentiate between reality and mythology. Sadly you seem to have autistic sensibilities about such matters.

    I also would like to know, why is it that you feel the need to label liberal people as Pseudo Seculars. Why not just Seculars. What is it that you know about them which gives you the right to call them Pseudo.

    For my part, I am not shy to call you a Hindu Fundamentalist, a crypto fascist.

    [Reply]

    Mohd Asim Khan Reply:

    Fantastic. On the dot!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Mohd Asim Khan , how about this , fantastic on the dot.
    I have another take on Muhammad’s problem. Remember there is age difference of twenty years between them. The time he went for meditation is when his wife was 55yrs. Obviously there was no physical relationship , I am a doctor I have seen many many patients with post menopausal hormone deficiency problem.(I am approaching this matter with an academic mind thus I am not going to use any true but hurtful words). Mohammad being young this must have been an unbearable situation. Remember he dare not leave his first wife , she was so powerful , it would have cost him his life. Faced with this impossible situation he turned to meditation to take his mind off carnal intrusions. There is nothing to go mad about this speculation gandhi apparently went psychotic when he had an involuntary orgasm, thereafter he started sleeping with two female consorts on both side and practice repression . Gandhi had this idiotic beleif that if he could control his urges , the energy will channeled in acheiving greater things.
    Now as you know the revelations came thick and fast , and he supplanted them at will to suit his purpose , like marrying the wife of his own adopted son as this was against the prevailing custom of arabia. This was a very very passion driven person is borne out by the number of wives he had and ALL OF THEM AFTER DEATH OF KHADIJA. and the fact he did not think twice in consumating his relationship with his most favourite wife whom he married by prevailing on his friend Abu Bakr, who was not at all agreeable in the first instance. The rest is SHEER LUST FOR POWER which led to all those wars he fought

    ishwar Reply:

    @Ravi

    “I am glad to say that most children are able to differentiate between reality and mythology.” – the reality is Hindus are in majority and becoming more powerful. First, we demolished your (secular’s) so-called Babri Masjid and now proved it in a court of law that it was never one at the first place. More would follow.

    Be prepared!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I am prepared, us seculars have kept you out of power for more than 55 years.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ravi, I am not a Hindu; i am a Syrian catholic from kerala.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    who is proud of his Indian and Hindu ancestry; and Rama and Krishna… and for your info, Christianity landed in kerala long before St Peter converted Romans.

    Vikram Reply:

    hmmm interesting

    KD Reply:

    Ravi,

    How do you propose a court to rule on such issues ? How scientific can you get with tracing the roots of the first religion humanity has known ? There were no historians taking notes then, I hope you agree.

    This is the most secular judgement possible. Its like allowing hindus to share the land in mecca with muslims !!!

    I am amazed at how spoilt the muslims of this country are. They get a very reasonable win-win situation and are trying desperately to make it a win-lose situation !

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @KD,
    I think the average Muslim, even if not fully happy, is willing to move on.
    It is the sickular media, politicians caught in a time warp (read Mulayam), community leaders (whose only claim to fame is involvement in this dispute), JNU school historians (and their ilk spread all over) and of course, lawyers – salivating at the prospect of another celebrity lawsuit, who are stoking the embers of imagined grievances.
    Assumptive comments such as “the VHP would have gone on a rampage if the verdict went against the Hindus” and statements congratulating the Muslims for their maturity in not turning violent have to be seen in this light.

    shan Reply:

    It is naive to label mulayam as caught in a time warp. he has done his home work well , it is the gullible muslims who fall for this crocodile tears. He made sure his son graduated with a MBA (I don’t know where from )and not from any madrasah, and made sure bahu was genetically pure hindu. In summary a true indian politician , through and through HYPOCRITE, it is also known as fishing in troubled waters.

    Ajit Reply:

    all in all, verdict is a great jump start for the people of both communities who want to move on, point is hindu believes that it was a place of lord ram, muslim thght their mosque was at a just place now considering all the evidence and emotions attached to this issue i think the judgement was the perfect, here no community shud focus on half glass instead shud seize this opportunity to rebuild the confidence between two communities.

    [Reply]

    Ajit Reply:

    and reject the extreme views like that of ovaishi or quveshi , an mp from hydrabad and some hindu grps with extreme views.

    [Reply]

    Madhusudan Reply:

    Let’s answer some very fundamental questions:
    1. Did rulers and tribes from other countries invade India? — yes.
    2. Did they generally loot, pillage and plunder the wealth of Indian kingdoms– Yes.
    3. Did Hindu temples stand out as grand and opulent, virtually unguarded and represent idol worshippers that was alien to those rulers and their beliefs? Yes.
    4. Did those rulers generally target Hindu temples and smashed them and erect Islamic symbols to represent their superiority over the local populace? yes..
    5. Has there been any exceptions? No.
    Now every attempt to resolve some of these thorny disputes does not have to be seen as a loss to Muslims. Have muslims been prevented from pursuing their faith in private or public. No? Why the outcry when Hindus want a resolution of the birth place of an important figure of their epics – Lord Ram?
    Let’s accept one fundamental factor in India. All of us go through the same amount of problems or challenges in our struggle for life. No one is discriminated against due to their religion, only on the basis of their economic situation. High caste or low caste or any religion the common man is suffering the same way.
    Influential people like Zia should go out of the way to promote the benefits of the court ruling to reinforce the rule of law. Anything less is a let down. Don’t try to play wedge politics and muddy the water further please.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    Now for this stupid verdict!

    All non muslims need to fight and get rid of all islam from India!

    These dumbos want more land!
    If someone came to mecca and rightfully reclaimed its pagan religions and temple, these ******* muslims would make jeehad on all………

    now dumb hindus who let muslims take holy place of ram ………… need to wake up!

    [Reply]

    RP Singh Reply:

    Well we should thank the Indian Muslim community for not going to violence an agiation as the VHP was prepared to do and does on every single issue.

    I up 110% sure that if the verdict had proven that there was no temple and no claims, then even then VHP would have gone on a rampage saying “secular India failedus” and “Hinduism in Danger”.

    We need to rid the world of these pseudo-Hindus who want nothing other than a Hinduised version of Pakistan or worse.

    [Reply]

    ishwar Reply:

    @RP Singh

    We don’t need to thank anyone (Muslims included) for not resorting to violence after the verdict. Who ever has any problem with the judgement can:
    a) either approach the highr court or
    b) resort to violence and get to know their rightful place in the country

    For people like R P Singh and Zia, you would never be happy in life because of your attitude.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Another example of how pathetic the hiindu mentality is. We are actually thanking the muslims for not killing us !!! LOL

    I am happy for muslims with this judgement. Frankly, I didnt want the temple to stand in that place by hurting muslim ego. This is the best win-win situation possible.

    [Reply]

    Sumedha Reply:

    Well put and sensibly said.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    “As a legal verdict it is atricious and overreaching”. I cannot understand why Zia should not be held accountable for contempt of court. And if we scroll backwards in time frame HOW ABOUT SHAH BANO VERDICT. Why faith was invoked to trample upon supreme court judgement. Also Zia is being mischivously selective i his narration of events.As much he doesn’t miss the chance to remind about surreptitiously placing of idols under the central domeHE CONVINIENTLY HE FAILS TO MENTION THE BRITISH LEGAL RECORDS OF 1850 WHICH CLEARLY STATES THERE WAS A WORKING TEMPLE THERE.In any case any rational people would advice the quom leaders to cede the rest of the land as a grand gesture and lay to rest the constant suspicion about their loyalty. In fact shia students group being shia and not sunni have done exactly that. I remember a TV programme about the japanese miracle. One japanese said they were brought up to beleive IF MY COUNTRY GETS RICH AND DOING WELL I WILL AUTOMATICALLY DO WELL. Now if Zia wants his quom to prosper he should think about the nation of birth and let it prosper and not get mired in this festering problem AND BRING A CLOSURE TO IT. This will also take the wind out of the sail of BJP and see the natural demise of sangh parivar due to rapid urbanisation of india.
    I ALSO HAVE A SUGGESTION FOR THE ONE THIRD LAND. Sell it to Govt of India AT A HEFTY PRICE(the govt will be more than happy to pay , if this prevents future riots, FOR MANDIR MASJID RUBBING SHOULDERS IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER IN MODERN INDIA. iT IS LIKE A EXPOSED LIVE WIRE AND LEAKING WATER PIPE RUNNING SIDE BY SIDE.
    i also challenge the rather pretty ?Farah we saw in NDTV with burkha and swapan dasgupta to v
    come to these blogs. I dont know what the hell she was going on about. THE DEMOLITION IS A CRIMINAL ACT AND A SEPARATE LEGAL SUIT IS GOING ON IN LUCKNOW HIGHCOURT. Also can I politely remind her DEMOLOITION IS HALLMARK OF ISLAM (ICONOCLASM) , AND SHE SHOULD KNOW.

    [Reply]

    sak Reply:

    As a muslim I agree that 1/3 land should be either sold to the government or simply donated
    to hindus. Filing the appeal to SC will prolong the agony.

    I also support Zia’s right to express his opinion. In a democracy it is his fundamental right
    as also the right of Farhan and Mulayam Singh. It is o.k. if you don’t agree.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Reply:

    Shah Bano verdict was a request from the muslim community and a verdict that affected the muslim community. IT DID NOT AFFECT anyone else other than MUSLIMS alone.

    The point is that thejudgment uses faith and belief as the main reason for birthplace being exact birthplace of Ram. What next, what if after a while another mosque is said to believed to be the birthplace of another Hindu god. Then on the basis of belief of Hindus that should also be handed over to build a temple. You don’t even need ASI reports now.

    [Reply]

    Shashank Reply:

    @Ahmed.

    Start using your brain

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ahmed start using your brain to recall newspaper reports. NO MORE TEMPLES CAN BE CLAIMED AS PER ACT OF PARLIAMENT 1992.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Ahmedbhai, why are you defending Babar against Hindus ?

    Please uphold your own culture and respect Hindu culture and history. I respect muslim culture and prefer the islam lives in peace with Hindus.
    If mecca had a temple built on it after destroying the muslim holy structure, I would have happily supported its relocation.

    [Reply]

  • sharad saxena

    Nothing has happened after the verdict? whom to give credit?
    1-Honorable high court bench who gave such a wonderful verdict that silenced all those who were waiting some scope of politics, nobody is in a position to oppose this verdict because there is no better alternative!!!
    2-Media!! I know many of you will not be agree with me… I feel today’s media is equipped with such a latest technology (mobile, video chat, online network, satellite communication etc) that avoid any scope of rumors and manipulation of news and whole nation was served SAME NEWS SIMULTANEOUSLY because what was happening that was being shown LIVE….. now imagine media coverage of early 1990s when media was not technologically advanced and people were forced to get .. news on either on radio(bi-hourly bulletin) or next day by newspapers and these “few hours” were more than sufficient to spread the rumors and speculations resulted un-necessary disturbance….
    ……. BEST SOLUTION will come only if politicians and much hyped “Dharmgurus” are NOT allowed to handle this issue.

    [Reply]

    guest Reply:

    The message we are getting from muslims who are very sad/disappointed/angry with the verdict is that they refuse to acknowledge the existance of Lord Ram as historical figure and God in general. All they know is their god Allah and no one else. Its high time for them to understand that other faith people are around and they have their own true God and true faith and those people give a damn to their Allah. Also naturally they wont question the existance of their prophets and the angels who whispered in their ears the holy words of Allah.

    Guess muslims should grow up and accept, respect, appreciate Gods of other faith instead of questioning their historic authenticity and mocking their beliefs ( idol worshippers, satan influenced, kafirs, infedels, pagans etc) and imposing taxes, zazias, treating them as sons of satan, destroying their temples etc.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I agree with you that every one including Muslims, should recognise that other people have the right to a different religion or an alternative God.

    However, that does not automatically prove historical authenticity of Ram. Further more, challenging historical authenticity of Ram does not undermind the theological relevance of HIM.

    Ram’s importance and his role in enhancing the beauty of Hindu religion is in no way dependant upon his historical authenticity. A mythical Ram is just as attractive a God as an incarnated version of him. However, for Political Hinduism, the insistence of historical authenticity of Ram provides a platform from which many tirades against secularism can be launched.

    I am afraid Hindu religion has nothing to gain from historical authenticity of Ram, Hindu Political parties on the other hand are dependant upon it for their very existence.

    [Reply]

    ishwar Reply:

    We don’t need to prove the authenticity of Ram to non-beleivers like you.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ishwar, I guess you are not very good at reading.

    I am not a non-believer. I beleive in Ram irrespective of whether he was Historical or Mythological.

    However, I dont think you are a Hindu. You come across as a Fundo

    KD Reply:

    And please also add that the goes for mohammad or jesus.

    Would you rather have a mosque at the Vatican or a synogogue in mecca just because some invader wanted to impose his religious beliefs on these regions ?

  • syed

    ” The message we are getting from muslims who are very sad/disappointed/angry with the verdict is that they refuse to acknowledge the existance of Lord Ram as historical figure …….”

    Some people are just looking for a reason to criticize. First there was the perception that muslims would resort to violence if the verdict went against them. When they accepted it with a large measure of equanimity, then you have comments like these.

    First of all what “muslims” are you talking about? For your info. there are 70+ sects amongst muslims – sunnis, shias, ahmadis, khoja, bohra, aga khani ……. are all sad/disappointed/angry as you say? Have ancestors of all these sects been on a mosque demolition spree? Yes even a lot of sunnis I met are relieved tghere is some sort of closure given by the courts.

    And finally are you aware that some muslims have offered to donate money for building the Ram temple????

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/Shia-youth-group-offers-donation-to-build-Ram-temple/Article1-607192.aspx

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    Absolutely right. And we all should be proud how both Muslims and Hindus absorbed the verdict. I am worried about the Maulayams and Bihar election politics.

    BTW Naadeem P has an excellent article in today’s Dawn. How Pakistanis are now claiming Arab ancestry and denouncing/moving away from Indus valley, Taxsila, Budha, etc.. I guess that will complete the circle for them.

    [Reply]

    Mera Reply:

    The worst part is that there are individuals and organization trying to defend the invaders and their structures in this new era under the gard of religion.

    all the Muslims residing in India 99.9% are all desdencents of Hindus or a product of turture and forceful conversion which all today try to deny the facts….

    [Reply]

    abdul Reply:

    dear syed,

    did islam ask you muslim to divid in 70 sects what a shame shias offer money to built mandir and they do not have any sadness masjid was distroyed on false claim did ram born in jungle or palace being son of king him self as per historical record till 2000 BC ayudha was jungle why not hindus during akbar era never made claim with him being secular king having temple in his palace for his hindu wife and daughter in law for prayer he could have easily handed over to hindu with out this much blood shed as we seen last 20 years in the name of ram no one was aware babri masjid issue till BJP made a issue out of nothing.

    [Reply]

  • guest

    I said those muslims who are sad/unhappy. I am not talking about the muslims who are happy about the outcome. Please read carefully.

    [Reply]

  • guest

    And I dont care how many castes or sects muslims have.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @be my guest. Dont know why you or the ignorant muslims should hold themselves hostage to that definition of allah. jewish god is even more supremely bigotted and apparently is so sacrosanct that the word “implying”GOD is WAHEY , Now wahey is not the name of the jewish god , apparently he is so angry and holy you cannot take his name, like you wouldn’t address him as dawood mia if you meet him . His ire will spare you if you refer him as “he who taught hindus a lesson or he who rules Bombay(I have deliberately used that name). Similarly Wahey is an acronymn made up grom jewish alphabets , when read means “he who is the most powerful” , thus avoiding taking his name. That did not prevent jewish state israel to become a secular republic or to coexist all over the world for centuries . With islam the problem is massive illiteracy and also as they are ALL CONVERTS they need to be STRIDENT to prove they are more islamic than the original ones in saudi arabia.

    [Reply]

    hami Reply:

    it seems that u are more illterate than those guys. u know a little about muslims. little learning is dangerous.

    [Reply]

    sufizafar Reply:

    no shan is wright

  • anotherguest

    It was crazy how the leading journalists (without having read the decision in it’s entirety themselves) were preaching and bowing to the judgement. While as a political decision it aims to satisfy all parties, like dividing a piece of bread among two children and for good measure a third to the neigbour child, it falls short of being a sound judicial decision. Those of us who know the difference talked about it. Nice to see scholars like yourself getting some print space in HT, The Hindu and Outlook. Note, only 2 of the 3 judges said it was the birthplace of Ram. Ram was a literary character in the epic poem Ramayana? Ramayana is set in places familiar to the author(s) as is the case of a lot of literature. Any truly intelligent person knows that.

    [Reply]

  • mvnreddy

    Someone said:

    Hindus kept 1000yrs of islamic terrorism behind them. But still about half of the land of India was given to them to make their homeland(Pak). They did not share power with all. Instead hindus were driven out from pak.

    Even then our forefathers decided for secularism and share the power with all in the land given to hindus(India).!!

    Is there one such community(like Hindus) in the entire history of planet?

    What more secularism the muslims want?

    What hindus got in return? Ethnic cleansing in Kashmir! And we can not get a small piece of land which is sacred for us but just a land for others!. Why they do not vacate our sacred land for us? Where is the need for court involvement ? . What is the motive behind obstructing the temple which is sacred to hindus? Are they feeling it as an obstacle in their grand Islamization plan?

    Their stubborn behaviour would only lead to liberation of our other temples.

    Hindus have givenup too much to their fault for the sake of secularism. What benefit this secularism brought to hindus? On the top of that they can not get even an acre of land sacred sacred to them?. The secularism brought only 2nd class citizenship to Hindus.

    —–
    I say:

    Who are all of you to occupy our sacred piece of land? Muslim invaders created the anarchy. We are trying to recover our treasuries atleast sacred to us. The issue is between us and past terrorists. Who are you muslims or politicians or courts to terrorise us holding our sacred places?
    DID WE OCCUPY ANYONES SACRED LAND?.

    Grow up. If not atleast let others grow.

    [Reply]

  • mvnreddy

    Can not you understand that the Faith was upheld by Law based on ASI findings. You want to say ASI report is fake evenafter it was cross-examined by international experts and grilled by judges for days?

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    According to Zia, “Muslims have been disappointed”. The other side looks at the highly discriminatory policies of practically all muslim majority countries in the world and wonders whether their “fight for justice” in the Indian context is only because they have a limited clout in India. What would “justice” look like if India was a muslim majority country today. Bammiyan, anyone?

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Reply:

    Why are you looking at other countries across the world? We are Indian muslims and we are only responsible for Indian laws. Why put the burden of other countries down our throats.

    What next, Spanish Inquistion against muslims of India?

    [Reply]

    abhi Reply:

    It is only to state the fact that muslims will always be suspect as long as they do not decry the highly discriminatory policies of practically all the muslim majority countries of the world. In this interconnected world, the fight for secularism (and it IS a fight!) is an international fight and the burden of this fight does not rest on any one particular community. We are all in it, my friend.
    Closer to home, would you be unhappy if they removed article 370 from Kashmir? Why, are you a Kashmiri?

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims want to claim Ummah and their unique sharia, when needed.

    when not needed, then they are indian citizens and what happens in other muslim countries is nothing to do with them.

    want to have cake and eat it too..

    no wonder most muslims do not condemn barbaric practices in 57 oic countries.
    So far secularism is only held by Hindus in India.
    What did they get for that ?
    just more violence and more threats for giving special rights to islam..

    while HIndus get not even basic rights and get ethnically cleansed from their own lands..

  • Zia Ul Haq

    Beta if you are related to me (Zia Ul Haq), please come to Pakistan and write as much as you want.
    When in Pakistan you can write as much as you want because their is anarchy here and nobody accountable for hate filled ideas…

    In the meantime please follow the rule of law and abide by the constitution and the judiciary…

    I hope hindustantimes can put you in your place and stop your nonsense

    [Reply]

  • sumanta

    After deciding that Muslims and Hindus will be joint title holders, the decision to give the area believed by the Hindus as Janamsthan of Ram is not based on “faith”. Nor does it indicate that the judgement accepts that area as the true birthplace of Ram. It’s simply a matter of demarcating the premises according to religious requirements in a practical way. To Muslims any area where prayer is performed is a mosque (well, almost). But for Hindus, who consider deity variously as son, father, mother, etc. the location of birth as per common belief and folklore is extremely important. Do you think it would have been practical if the area were demarcated such that the Masjid were where Ram was believed to be born and the temple were beside it? In India people are calling the judgement to be based exclusively on faith, where it is really a matter of practical demarcation of the premises.

    [Reply]

  • YD

    The writer is trying to confuse the issue by saying that in 1994 Supreme Court asked Allahbad High Court to settle title issue. The title issue did not originate in 1994, it started when Babur conquered Ayodhya, demolished Ram temple and buit a mosque there. Who had the title at that time ? Did Babur bought the title from the temple authorities ? How a conqueror demolish a temple and buid a mosque and today Muslims are saying “land belongs to Muslims”. What’s about Hindus whose land was forcibly taken ? Even a British judge had said that there is evidence that a temple existed where mosque was buit in sometimes 1800s. The writer has taken a cue from Pakistan – forget UN demand that Pakistan withdraw its aggression from Kashmir but do not forget the plebiscite. Truely speaking what right a aggressor had to get Pakistan ? British aggressors left for their country but Islamic aggressors divided India.

    [Reply]

    mateenc Reply:

    that’s correct, personal law board has hijacked the entire community for their own position, i ask entire muslim community to boycott so called ‘religious-political leaders’ and show them each of us is a separate entity and each one knows what is right and just for us. on the part of hindus i advise all sane people that they shud also reject ppl with extreme views and positions be it a party, pseudo seculars, or organizations…

    [Reply]

    Mera Reply:

    Truly written here , i cound not have conveyed the same in better words…

    [Reply]

  • Dinesh

    World Communities has praised Indian Muslims for their wiseness and respect for Judiciary system on Ayodhya verdict, but Traitors of India like Mulayam & Ram Vilas won’t let community to live in peace.

    [Reply]

  • Eli

    I think it’s about time to move on without making it an issue of faith. Let the case take it’s legal course and nothing else. Those who have appealed against the verdict in supreme court, fine, if the verdict goes to their favour or not; let it be a just legal matter. As a muslim, i know the true spirit of Islam is to respect others’ sentments whether religious or personal. Subjects like correctness of reigious believes should only be restricted to scholarly debates/fora and not public debates. Personally, I am glad that the verdict did not usher into violence, so let’s build on this good start…

    [Reply]

  • Khalsainder Bedi

    If none proved title then tile should go to gornament !

    [Reply]

    Sher Reply:

    Khalsaji,

    You too? I assume you are a sikh. I ask you a simple question one religious group demolishes another religion’s shrine and construct some structure of their own. the aggrieved party stops offering their prayers at the place where their shrine once stood but still want the site to be restored to them. what would be your decision?

    [Reply]

  • Matri Das

    Battles of faith have always been solved in battlegrounds, from Jerusalem to modern Palestine-Israel conflict. For the first time in the history of the world and religions, a court have attempted to solve battle of faiths. One cannot talk of strict laws and faith together. Who has seen Allah and who would prove that Quran is His word. Same way Ram’s existence too is a matter of faith. It must have confounded the legal system no ends. One cannot an article for which instruments to judge do not exist. However with all the limitations the Allahabad High Court has tried to rest an ugly controversy in the best possible way. All must respect court. Judgment is not to confirm a litigant’s view in toto. Litigitants should know this fact before moving to a court. Besides courts too have a social consciousness and duty.

    [Reply]

  • Ziauddin Shafi

    The problem of basing judgements on religious belief is that it impacts upon the whole country (not just a single community) and may open a can of worms. What if Buddhists start claiming that certain Hindu religious places were in fact Buddhist monasteries and therefore should be handed back to them – citing this judgement as a precedent? We have all read about how hindus have killed and massaccred thousands upon thousands of Buddhists to establish their supremacy in the land – and how they had demolished or captured Buddhist religious structures for their own use. None of it was, of course, given legal sanction; but this judgement by a court of law unfortunately almost legitimized demolition of the babri masjid in the eyes of the people.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ziauddin the plonker. there is already a budhist temple in gaya , where budha attained his nirvana, also there is sarnath , nalada , so dont talk shit, also there is ajanta caves . ALSO YOU IGNORANT MORON BY THE ACT OF PARLIAMENT 1992 NO TEMPLES MOSQUES OR BIHAR CAN BE RECLAIMED AND WILL REMAIN IN STATUS QUO(that means stay as it is)

    [Reply]

    Ziauddin Shafi Reply:

    @Shan the Evil Genius
    Existence of a number of Buddhist temples do not negate the fact that various others were demolished or occupied in the past. The presence of the Army, the CRPF and the Police, and laws pertaining to safeguarding and protecting places of worship were unable to save various mosques destroyed since 1947 till date – so another act of parliament would remain just as all the other acts remain – on paper – unimplemented or enforced on ground.
    Shan – khao naan aur badhao gyaan.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Zia, the name has a glorious past, murderous dictator in pakistan killed by the mangoes, tin pot dictator in bangladesh killed by a very islamic method coup de tat. It is like pot calling the kettle black. Do the names pakistan and bagladesh ring a bell , and how many hindu mandirs were razed to the ground , this is not to mentio 1500 or so demolished by the marauders from khybar pass. Then again they were doing what the fountain head of the creed did in his own birthplace, turned to dust all that was standing except kaba(that was too hot to handle) , not satisfied at that COMPLETELY ERASED FROM HISTORY AND MEMORY ANY TRACE OF HISTORY OF PREMOHAMMED ARABIA and labelled it as jahilia. A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST CANNOT MATCH THIS FEAT. It’s simply unparalled in history of human civilization. So wakey wakey

  • ahmd

    why u pakistani people talking about our indian’muslim..don’t u people have any work..please at first make piece in your country first..thre are so many person who have care for muslims.

    [Reply]

    Vikram Reply:

    Pakistanis are not happy that the muslims in India are in a much better place than pakistan itself

    [Reply]

  • rajesh

    I (a Hindu, by the way), am disappointed by the HC verdict. Not because of the result but the logic and rules applied. This rules of the game have been changed. The verdict depends not on legal title or historical or acheological analysis and inference, but rather on faith. Implicit is the issue – whose faith ? And what when the faith of a few conflict with the faith of many ? Is it then a matter of majority ? Are legal and fundamental rights to property then subject to majority view ? And what when the faith conflicts with the legal position – which will prevail ?

    These issues are far bigger than mere property or even the Ayodhya issue. It cannot be left to a ‘mere’ High Court to have the final word on them. The Supreme Court and in fcat, a Constitutional Bench must opine on them.

    [Reply]

  • yash

    It is no Mecca or Madina for Muslims. Where as for Hindus it is of great importance.. Cant see why Muslims cant give up

    thanks
    yash

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    why did muslims get 1/3 of the place ?

    They should get nothing (as they occupied an existing temple and built over it)..

    it is unfair to Hindus..
    If muslims are compensated for their violence, they will keep doing it more and more..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Did you know that a significant number of Hindu Temples are built over Buddhist and Jain temples which Hindus destroyrd and plundered.

    Read your own history.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Please provide a list ..

    Ravi Reply:

    Here is a list to get you going…

    Temple Destruction in Ancient India

    1089-1101 AD: King Harsha of Kashmir of the first Lohara dynasty indulged in ruthlessly looting the treasures of the temples of Bhimasai and also systematically confiscated and defiled the metallic statues of Gods by outcasts throughout the Kashmir valley in order to obtain the valuable material. He even imposed tax on the night soil. (Ref. Kalhana, Rajataran-gini, Vol. 1, sec. 5, Motilal Banarsidas, page 113)

    642 AD: Pallava king Narasimhavarman I looted the image of Ganesha from the Chalukyan capital of Vatapi (present day Badami in Belgaum dist.)

    692 AD: Chalukyas invaded North India and brought back to the Deccan what would appear to be images of Ganga and Yamuna looted from defeated powers.

    8th century AD: Bengali troops sought revenge on King Lalithaditya’s kingdom in Kashmir by destroying what they thought was an image of Vaikunta the state deity of Kashmir kingdom.

    9th century AD: Rashtrakuta king Govinda III invaded and occupied Kanchipuram which so intimidated the King of Sri Lanka that he sent Govinda (probably Buddhist) images representing the Sinhala state.

    Rashtrakuta king Indira III not only destroyed the temple of Kalapriya at Kalpa near the Jamuna river, patronized by their deadly enemies, the Pratiharas, but they took special delight in recording the fact.

    9th century AD: Pandyan King Srimara Srivallabha also invaded Sri Lanka and took back to his capital golden Buddha image.

    Early 10th century, Pratihara King, Hermabapala, seized solid gold image of Vishnu Vaikunta when he defeated the Sahi kings of Kangra (Himachal Pradesh)

    Early 11th century: Chola King, Rajendra I furnished his capital with images he seized from several prominent neighbouring kings: Durga and Ganesha images from the Chalukyas, Bhairava, Bhairavi and Kali images from the Kalingas or Orissa as Nandi image from the Eastern Chalukyans.
    (Ref: David Gilmartin and Bruce B. Lawrence (ed.), Beyond Hindu and Turk, University Press of Florida, 2000.

    Sam Reply:

    does that include places where Buddha was born, or got enlightenment.

    Is the list 33,000 ? (as most temples in N India were fully destroyed)..

    Sam Reply:

    Ravi—
    is your temple list, agreed by a panel or ASI ?
    which buddhist temples were destroyed and on top of them which hindu temples were built ?

    Jack Nicholson Reply:

    Ravi, in an attempt to seek praise from your (and your future generations’) masters you have even forgotten about the argument you were trying to make. Most of the temples allegedly plundered were not Buddhists. Your eagerness in believing your sources is truly remarkable, as if they were the witnesses to the said deeds. Even more so for some one who likes others to believe that he has a rational mind. Admit it, you are a traitor of Hindu civilization (frustrated that your bluff has been called) and you are just doing your job. If you need to pull out examples(mostly rumours) from last millenium to justify the deeds of your masters in the present day, you will not hesitate. I am sure this will be your justification for plunder of more than 200 functioning temples in Pakistan and Bangladesh after the demolition of Babri as well.

  • Michael Selby

    I remain optimistic about the final outcome. I believe the Supreme Court of India will reverse the decision and award the main mosque area to the Muslims. In the interim, though, I believe it is important for commentators to keep asserting the distinction between the legal and the pragmatic. The Hindu right is attempting to blur the distinction only because they know their case has little legal merit.

    After the mosque has been restored to them, I propose that the Muslims should do something that is at once legal and pragmatic: announce that neither a temple nor a mosque would be built on that land, but rather a state-of-the-art maternity hospital. Such a hospital would not only honor the mythological birth place of Lord Rama, but also honor Indian women, for the sake of one of whom Lord Rama did the heroic things that are justly celebrated.

    India has the highest number of maternal deaths of any country in the world. 117,000 Indian women die every year during childbirth, and one in seventy Indian women have the lifetime certainty of such death. Most of these deaths are preventable. If the litigants and the people of Ayodhya are able to rise above their differences and join hands in such fashion, they will not only save lives, but will also have transmuted a tired, old, backward-looking conflict into a vibrant and creative forward-looking resolution.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Michael selby , the coward hiding in a false name. dont expect a dick head to reveal to the readers of the blog about STOP ISLAMISATION OF EUROPE CAMPAIGN that is militantly advocating barring of any more mosques being built in UK TO PRESERVE ITS CHRISTIAN CHARCTER, AND HOW ABOUT SWISS REFERENDUM BANNING BUILDING OF MINARETS AS IT STANDS OUT AS A ISLAMIC MOTIFF.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Abdul,

    “did islam ask you muslim to divide in 70 sects what a shame shias offer money to built mandir and they do not have any sadness masjid was distroyed on false claim did ram born in jungle or palace being son of king him self ”

    what is more important – A mandir/masjid or religious strife which can engulf the nation?? In my opinion shias prioritized correctly. Ppl like you are more concerned with the rituals behind the religion than the spirit.
    Ram’s birthplace is not a matter of proof but of faith as the court rightly pointed out. We say the quran has been dictated by Allah. Is there proof of this or is this a matter of faith?

    @guest
    “And I dont care how many castes or sects muslims have.”

    I didn’t really to tell you that but the fact that my answer necessitated it.

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    Glad to see the opening of the common wealth games started off terrifically!

    Great REAL cultures of India showcasing itself! not foreign rubbish islam who are the most racist people!

    glad to see was a great start!

    few pointers which were off putting;

    1) Indian wrestler running the torch to the prince of wales, was chewing something, how rude!
    2) AR RAHMAN THE DUMB muslim convert, wearing trainers, come on now the world is watching and you wear trainers, pathetic!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Wearing trainers in a sports stadium….now here is a novelty. You are an Islamophobe and a racist.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    Don’t hide behind that name son!

    you are the racist and hypocrite…………

    people like you are the cause of islam trying to invade INDIA 1000 YEARS AGO! PEOPLE LIKE YOU THE BEND OVER BACKWARD SAP THAT PAVED THE PASSAGE FOR ALL THE DEGENERATE CULT INTO INDIA!

    GO RE CONVERT YOU FAKE BROWN MUSLIM!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dude

    At least I have a name, you seem to be immitating being an American, from a 25 year old B grade movie.

    However, I like your style, if you do not have an arguement resort to abuse.

    DUDE Reply:

    YO ravimushtaq muslim 786 peado worshiper……..

    can you smell that? ……………

    ye thats right

    bull sh . it

    ……….

    wake up foool re convert to your ancestral religion! breaak free from your islamic masters chains!

    you know the ones your ancestors were bound to by conversion by the sword!

    wake up

    DUDE Reply:

    ON AN EVENT LIKE THAT YOU DONT WEAR SHODY CHEAP LOOKING RUBBISH TRAINERS!

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    ON AN EVENT LIKE THAT YOU DONT WEAR SHODY CHEAP LOOKING RUBBISH TRAINERS! …

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    reclaim pakistan and bangerstan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    All

    People are mixing a lot of things and in the process bringing falsehoods.

    The case is about title; and the verdict was about title.

    In the process of the verdict, judges have declarative opinions. Opinions are opinions, and not verdicts.. Justice Khan and Jsutice Sharma had “excellent” opinions, legal students and scholars will delight in exploring and interpreting those opinions for a long time. I for one was quite impressed with their intellect, framing ability, causative analysis etc. We should be proud that we do have excellence among all the decays around us.
    A verdict will not please all and that is not the purpose of a verdict. Nobody has the right to criticize the verdict; if so, we do not believe in the due process and judicial system. The right way to change is through elections and parlianmetary process, not criticizing courts and judges.

    The case is not about Babri demolition, Hindwata, or Islam.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    HINDUS DESTROYED HINDU TEMPLES. (Don’t believe it, read on)

    During “Chola times, in a series of martial expeditions to conquer the world (dig-vijayas). In 1014, Rajendra I invaded the (the present-day) Sri Lanka, sacked Anuradhapura, plundered its stupas, opened relic chambers, and took so much treasure from the Buddhistb monastries the the Buddhist chronicles compared his forces to blood-sucking fiends (yakkhas). But Buddhism was not the only Chola target. A western Chalukyian inscription, in Bijapur district, accusses the Chola army of behaving with exceptional brutality, slaughtering Hindu women, children, and Brahmins and raping high-caste girls.

    Such violence against temples had little, if anything, to do with religious persecution. The Cholas were generally Shaivas, but within their own territories they protected and enriched both Shaiva and Vaishnava temples, as well as Jaina and Buddhist establishments. It was, however, the Cholas’ custom to desecrate the temples of their fellow Hindu rivals….”

    The Hindus, An Alternative History, by Wendy Doniger. Page 349

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    So Ravi, there was a John Sturt Mill who said he can write the Indian History sitting in London, without having to reserach or review ..and he wrote the first so called Indian history because he believed India did not ahve a history.

    Now we have Wendy, an american Romila Thaper, from the Chicago neoconservative school. So she writes eloquently about teh chola destruction.

    Let readers decide.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi, you are being disingenious.

    Wendy is a double PHd in Sankrit and dare I guess much more knowledgeable than your self induced smugness. She has visited India and researched in India for several decades.

    Indeed when it comes to choosing between some one like you – who consitantly fails to address the point – focuses on attacking the person and an eminent historian who has written several books on Indian History, I am sure the readers will descide for themselves as to whom to believe.

    Here is a direct question to you. Historically, do you believe that Hindus did N O T destroy Hindu/Buddhist/Jain temples.

    A simple yes or no answer will do.

    As a caliberation point, do you believe that MOON is made of cheese?

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    OI FAKE RAVIMUSHTAAQ………..

    GO TO MECCA YOU TWERP! GO PREACH YOUR BOLLOKCS TO THE REAL MUSLIMS AND SEE HOW THEY TREAT YOUR BROWN CONVERTED AS.S!

    RACIST P RICK!

    Ravi Reply:

    Dude

    Thanks very much, you have made ny case better than I would have.

    Please do continue.

    DUDE Reply:

    so you want 70 virgins when u die hmmmm?

    typical muslim degenerate! …………… pls go to arabia the home of your ancestors masters!

    the weak indians who got converted!

    Akash Reply:

    Ravi,
    Can you give references to original sources? We have too many so-called scholars coming up with alternative histories. For ancient India, few can do better than AL Basham.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Akash

    Hindus – Al Allternative History cites all the original sources. You need not worry about that, there are thousands of citations.

    Chapter 13 is Called Bhakti in South India 100 BCE to 900 BCE. Citation 41 in this capter is from – Carman, Theology of Ramanuja.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I think secularism means respecting all faiths equally. This is how HT upholds Indian secularism.
    Can some one write similar article on Mohammad and live to see another day?

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/indrajithazra/Shaving-grace/Article1-607448.aspx
    Did Ram sport a beard? If an overwhelming number of Hindus believe that he was clean-shaven, is that enough for us to consider it settled that the deity-king was as smooth on the chin as Lord Salman is on the chest? Since moving on from the fractious, violent, complex-ridden years of the communalised 90s (remember the intra-Parsi community mayhem played out between Russi Mody and Ratan Tata?), this fundamental and unsettled question has replaced the banal, life-destroying ones about ‘Masjid or Mandir?’, ‘Muslim or Hindu?’, ‘Maruti or Contessa?’, ‘Low cut or hip-hugging?’.

    The ‘beard’ issue has been festering for quite some time now. The media may not have picked up on it yet, but if it isn’t addressed soon through rational avenues, the matter may spill out in unsavoury ways when the nation — that as a whole doesn’t really care about whether Ram was bearded or not — is least prepared.

    All standard depictions of Ram show him without a trace of facial hair. It was in the late 19th-early 20th century that the ‘modern’ depiction of Ram — not podgy, not lanky, but just right and with the air of benevolence that many IIM toppers have — ‘solidified’ with the mass market production of affordable prints rolling out of the Ravi Varma Fine Art Lithographic Press from 1894. For the first time, thanks to master of pop art Raja Ravi Varma, anyone and everyone could afford ‘god’ in his home.

    This clean-shaven Ram, ubiquitous in millions of Hindu households by the early-mid 20th century, became the popular choice for Indian idol. But Ram was not always the chikna that you know him so well as today. I’m not much into sculptures, but I would think it to be easier to bang out a stone idol without going through all that extra chiselling to show facial hair. (The early Christians stuck to two-dimensional iconography and the Muslims, well, took the easy way out.)

    The ancient and the medieval equivalents of today’s TV producers in the Hindu programming schedule certainly preferred the ‘clean Ram’ look when it came to depictions in stone and other materials. But the painter, coming in later, didn’t have such restrictions. The artists commissioned by Rana Jagat Singh of Mewar in the mid-17th century to create an illustrated Ramayan certainly didn’t mind putting a thick twirl of a moustache on a blue-skinned, Ram. To modern eyes, this ‘version’ of Ram looks more like Indrajit (Ravan’s fine-looking and brilliantly named son) than Ravi Varma’s mama’s boy.

    But as some contending akhada or other will point out sooner than later, the Mewar Ramayan isn’t the only one to describe Big Boy Ram with facial hair. The Pothi (sacred text) traditions in Kannada of the 17th century, to give one example, describe a bearded Ram. In her history of the comic book series Amar Chitra Katha, The Classic Popular (Yoda Press) Nandini Chandra writes about how Ram Waeerkar, one of the major illustrators in the Amar Chitra Katha team, had first drawn Ram with a beard based on the Pothi texts. “He was asked to redraw his Ram according to the Ravi Varma style,” writes Chandra, going on to quote art historian Christopher Pinney on how Varma transformed “the Indian imaginary from a realm of fantasy to a historicised realised chronotope” (adult-speak for ‘grounded in time and location’).

    Interestingly, because of Amar Chitra Katha artist Waeerkar’s personal fondness for Tarzan comics — especially the artwork in the 60s-70s by Russ Manning, the Ram with the top-knot that we see in the 1970 published comic book (Rama, Amar Chitra Katha Vol. 504), later picked up by those going for a more virile, bow-wielding, sinewy-muscled chap, has become our template for Ram. For those with more pacifist leanings have the option of the closer-to-Ravi Varma version transmitted by Ramanand Sagar, in his 1986 78-episode TV serial with Arun Govil as a podgier, softer-at-the-edges Ram.

    But the matter of the beard remains open-ended and needs to be closed. One just hopes that other contentious issue — of where the real Ramgarh is, the place where Gabbar Singh’s khaki-clad bones are buried — doesn’t crop up in between. The Archaeological Survey of India, after all, can’t be trusted to determine whether the two skeletal arms found at a site in a small town near Bangalore are that of Lord Jagannath or that of Thakur Baldev Singh. I sincerely hope, for the sake of national harmony, a court will decide the matter on what countless Sholay fans believe in.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Rajiv, before I say anything negative, let me be the first one to say that this contribution is first class. Beautifully written and superbly controlled.

    However, it is marred by two issues. The constitution of India is secular. That means it is not based upon the teachings of any one religion. To contrast this, had the constituion of India be based on Hindu religious teachings and or beliefs, then it would have made India not a secular nation but a Hindu nation. That for RSS/VHP, etc is the bone of contention.

    An individual can not be a secular or a pseudo secular as most blogers here mindlessly say. An individual can be a Liberal, and an Agnostic/Atheist, or a Muslim, Hindu, or a Sikh, etc.

    I was not aware that facial hair of Ram was a controversial issue. Further more I fail to see why it should matter. It is the character of Ram that makes him God and not his beard. Ram Chrit Manas, (and not Ram Chitar Manas) puts emphasis on his character and not his appearance. I for one follows his model conduct, and not his model looks.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, as much one can understand your obsession to wear the badge of secularism , a higher and refined approach is that of a rationalist like me. Hinduism is not the greatest faith , nor it has all if not any answers to life’s problems like cancer , pre senile dementia and jobs , relationship etc.In fact all religions are false , only good purpose they serve is they offer peace of mind(psychotheraphy) from the ever present onslaught of insecurity in day to day life. As one german philosopher put it “I dont care if there is God or not I NEED ONE”. I dont know if you are aware THERE ARE THIRTY THREE CRORE DESIGNATED GODS IN HINDUISM.so what does it signify. As I have written elsewhere in these blogs concept of god in hinduism is tad complex.here is a cut and paste
    Now to reiterate what I written in earlier blogs. The concept of god in hinduism is tad complex in hinduism. At one level you have Nag (snake) devta, and at other level it is PARAM BRAMHA.This param bramha is cosmic consciousness or a massive ELECTROMAGNETIC ENERGY which influences every thing on this earth including humans. one school of thought thinks god is SUPRA HUMAN not superhuman or superman . Thus it is no good praying to god for benevolence, charity etc, because these are human attributes and by asking for forgiveness or wealth or fortune or help YOU ARE HUMANISING GOD. next IS CHARBAK who thinks there is NO GOD and the whole purpose of this life is to live to its full INCLUDING CARNAL PLEASURES. Now Ram . It is not neccasary for hindu beleif to have an authentic Ram. As you know all this worship according to Swami vivekananda , is just to focus your mind , so Ram is a symbol of virtuesand a symbol of god but not god per se.
    similarly there is no doubt HINDUS KILLED EACH OTHER and still doing may also have destroyed temples , BUT IT NO WHERE CLOSE TO WHAT ISLAM ACHEIVED. Here is another one to spare you scrolling upwardsThen again they were doing what the fountain head of the creed did in his own birthplace, turned to dust all that was standing except kaba(that was too hot to handle) , not satisfied at that COMPLETELY ERASED FROM HISTORY AND MEMORY ANY TRACE OF HISTORY OF PREMOHAMMED ARABIA and labelled it as jahilia. A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST CANNOT MATCH THIS FEAT. It’s simply unparalled in history of human civilization. So wakey wakey

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan..fair enough.

    At no point I have defended or ever will defend attrocities committed by Muslim Invaders or for that matter invaders of any other religion. The fact that I am not an Islamophobe, does not automatically make me a lover of Muslims. Though I do quite fancy Shabana Azmi.

    You are wrong in stating that I am a secular, which I am not. Only Constitutions and Institutions can be secular. Individuals can not be secular they can be liberal, or socialists, etc. I am a Liberal, and an atheist but I am spiritual.

    My opposition is and still remains to Political Hinduism, or Saffron Brigades, or Right Wing Hindus, who for narrow political gains use anti Muslim arguments and foment communal dis-harmony.

    The India where Muslims make Ram Lila costumes, and even participate by taking on the roles of Ram as well as Sita, even the DCM Ram Lila during the 60s had Muslim involvement in it. Almost all the Ganesh’s as well as Durga effigies are constructed by Muslims. Manganyars from Rajasthan sing Hindu Bhajans for their patrons while maintaining Islam as their personal religion. Such India is much more of a desirable place to live than an India where Brahmin led hegemony subverts all other citizens.

    I come from the live and let live brand of liberalism.

    shan Reply:

    @Ravi, I accept the word secular is used wily nilly. I not only fancy shabana azmi, i drool over her. Though I have to say if rehana sultana was around(meaning active in bollywood) , she would have given shabana run for her money. One correction DURGA idols are made EXCLUSIVELY in west bengal by one community whose surname is PAL.and they are hindus.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    I have to agree, Shabana is hot but not as hotter as Rekha.

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev, Congratulations, like to see more of this in your future postings.By the way what did you think about my take on mohammad and an alternate explanation from a medical point of view.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    @Shan,
    I read your post. Though it was brilliant arguement but more of reactionary in nature. The problem with muslims is that they have to REJECT (insult) all other FAITHS to be a pious muslims. In this day and age, this kind of retarded attitude can not be tolerated.
    I must say you are doing a great job. You are perfect example of moderate HINDU otherwise most of the hindus are bending backwards secular because it is more fashionable.

    Of late, muslims egged on by pro-congress people, have been questioning hindu faith that RAMA EXISTED, WAS BORN IN AYODHYA. I can see secular-fascists and muslims insulting hindu belief in chorus. I can blast all the Islamic laws of muslims and I have a perfect logic to do so.
    However I don’t feel motivated enough to type in such a long arguement.

    I can say with certainity if there is myth about Rama, there are myth around most of the Islamic belief and it is time they are questioned. The muslims and their secular-fascist cousins need to understand that belief of EVERY religion is question so let us not charter into that territory.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    A guy whose entire submission is a reaction to elemnets of Islam (how ever much unsavoury) is calling other people reactionary.

    A tirade of barbed salvos against Congress supporters is rich coming from a Saffron Fundametalist and a cypto fascist.

    Sangh nich marke

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    I can understand your hurt feelings. You wanted a particular verdict and that did not happen. You were the same guys who were shouting from the rooftops asking everyone to respect the verdict.

    By the way, speaking for hindus does not make a person Sanghi.

    Can I call you talibani because you favor intolerant flavor of Islam?
    Talibani niche mark.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shan,
    Did we ever have Ravi character on these blogs before the Ayodhya verdict? I am pretty sure he ‘RAVI’ was never on these blogs. I am certain that some muslim fundoo (may be from next door) is hiding behind Kafir name ‘RAVI’.

    If he is a hindu then I will say ‘Chai se Zyada Kaitlee garam hai’.

    Ravi Reply:

    Rajeev

    Here is an offer.

    You agree to your real RSS identity and accept that you are a crypto Hindu Fascist.

    I will even give you my telephone number let alone my real name.

    For as long as you stick to making good points, I and the rest of liberal minded people will appreciate it, even if it is the opposite of what we believe. I think you can see a proof of that within this blog.

    The moment you venture into name calling, casting assertions on other people’s religion or motives, you will find that match is on.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Where is the name calling in my posts? Now you are indulging in pure lie…A typical pseudo-secular trait/talibani trait.

    I have nothing to do with Knickerwallahs but I have my views which are not one-sided like yours.

    I am of the view that Hindus and muslims need to accomodate eachother.

    I don’t want phone number of a potential Jihadi..You may very well be next faisal Shehzad..atleast from your writings I infer that.

    Don’t interact with me..You closet Jihadi.

    Ravi Reply:

    Here is some of the name calling instances from your contributions in this blog alone….

    1. Can I call you talibani because you favor intolerant flavor of Islam?
    2. 1. Hindu Seculars = Ultra-sensitive muslims
    2. Hindu media persons = Taqiya muslims
    3. Hindu so-called secular leaders = Maualnas asking people to go for Jihad
    4. Retired Pro-muslims justices like Kachchar (Sachchar) = Dhimmis
    3. That proves my point. I can see a talibani getting all worked up.
    4. I am certain that some muslim fundoo (may be from next door) is hiding behind Kafir name ‘RAVI’.
    5. Don’t interact with me..You closet Jihadi.

    In return I am very comfortable in calling you a HINDU FUNDO A SAFFRON TERRORIST.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Everything I said was in reaction to irrational posts of yours and fake-seculars.

    1. I called you closet Jihadi because you called everyone Sanghi who did not share your view.
    2. I called Hindu secular as ultra sensitive muslims because they are getting sensitive about words such as ‘Grand’ temple.
    3. Hindu media as taqiya muslims because they appealed for the respect for verdict but when it came out they did a U-Turn calling judges idiots.
    4. I called so-called secular leaders Maulana because they (like Mulayam) are instigating the muslims to go for riots.
    5. I called Retired pro-muslims justice like Kachchar Dhimmis because he used very insulting language for Rama in one of the interviews. This kachchar is definetely one of the pakistani refugees who feels that partition happened because of hindus..That’s why he is dhimmi suffering from stockholm syndrome just like you.
    6. You went beserk and that is why I called you Talibani. What is the need to call others Sanghi to prove your point? There are millions of hindus who are satisfied with this verdict. Are you going to call all of them Sanghi? if yes, it is perfectly logical to call you talibani because you refuse to respect law.
    7. All your posts point to the fact that you are posting with fake identity. Your over-enthusiastic support for muslims makes me infer that you may be a fundoo from next door neighbor.
    8. If you are going to call all hindus who respect this verdict SANGHI, I will keep calling you talibani.

    I am surprised to see that FAKE-SECULARS are nothing but hooligans controlling everything in media.

    Ravi Reply:

    I rest my case, readers can make their own mind.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I rest my case too. Readers can make their own mind.

    Sher Reply:

    I rest my case, readers can make their own mind.” Ravi

    Hahahaha that is hilarious!

    Hilarious as you (Ravi) DID NOT HAVE A CASE to start with.

    You have failed spectacularly to defend intolerance (esp whahabi Sunni brand) practiced by Muslims even in India.

    Simple point Ravi, we are not living in medieval times where a Muslim bigot like you could get away after insulting Hindus and their faith/beliefs.

    If Muslims and their ’secularist’ dhimmis (well-coined term Rajeev) continue to question Hindus faith, the retaliation would be swift in the shape of counter-questioning of Islamic faiths. and let me tell you jihadi lowlife, Hindus can still prove Lord Ram was born in Ayodhya but you guys would have terrible time establishing that Gabriel did whisper divine verses in that ageing, illiterate shepherd’s ears. If that communication cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt, Islam has no basis which implies not only the defeat of muslim case for Janambhoomi for all times to come but also a ban on construction of mosques anywhere in India.

    Your call Muslims insisting on questioning Hindu faith. Your faith is also not immune from questioning. Afterall, this is what kuran preaches – eye for an eye.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Fake-Ravi,
    I see you as a very dangerous person so you are on my ignore-list. I don’t interact with anti-social elements.

    Ravi Reply:

    Thank God for that. Cant take it, can you. Easy to dish out unsubtantiated rubbish but not easy on the mind when some of it comes back.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Two words “SORE LOSER”.

    Go, sulk in a corner. Leave us alone.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Goa Inquisition

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    Here is very recent example of Islamists demolishing temple at the first opportunity.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Deganga_riots

    Rajeev Reply:

    Just for the Academic purposes, here is more on Goa Inquisition-

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm

    DUDE Reply:

    lol

  • http://- Rajeev

    After the Vedict, I get a feeling-
    1. Hindu Seculars = Ultra-sensitive muslims
    2. Hindu media persons = Taqiya muslims
    3. Hindu so-called secular leaders = Maualnas asking people to go for Jihad
    4. Retired Pro-muslims justices like Kachchar (Sachchar) = Dhimmis

    I don’t see muslims getting worked up but their hindu-slaves are barking the loudest on their behalf. I guess these slaves want a hindu-muslim riots so that they can continue with their secular business.

    They should understand that this verdict is irreversible and will be upheld in SC. The members of BAC had challenged many times, if a temple is found underneath the mosque, they will hand over site to Hindus. The ASI has proved that so it is time muslims and their slaves keep their word.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    And after reading your diarrhoea, I think:

    Believers in Ram’s birth place = Saffron terrorist.
    Destroyer of Buddhist Temples = Hindu terrorist
    Gloater of political verdict = RSS Fundo
    Assaulters of innocent girls = Coward Bajrang Dal Fascist

    I see people who have LOST all bar one election ever held in this country making the loudest noise.

    I see the Hinduatav agenda rejected by the people of India time and again.

    I see Rajjev and his ilk trying very hard and failing to establish a Hindu hegemony over other communities in this country.

    The verdict will be over turned by the SC.

    More than one can play the game you are playing. You will get beack, with interest, what you dole out. Come on then.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    That proves my point. I can see a talibani getting all worked up.

    Come on, use your real name. You are exposed.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You are sad

    Rajeev Reply:

    I am sad..Looking at your post anyone can say that you are not only sad but also very angry.

    DUDE Reply:

    ravi is a muslim degenrate!

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is a wonderful article detailing Justice Agarwal’s verdict-
    http://dailypioneer.com/287874/Verdict-nails-‘secular’-lies.html

    Verdict nails ‘secular’ lies
    October 06, 2010 1:03:06 AM

    S Gurumurthy

    Justice Sudhir Agarwal’s judgement, running into 5,200 pages, makes two important points: A temple existed at the disputed site in Ayodhya and it was destroyed to build the Babri mosque. This puts to rest the assertion by ‘secular’ historians that temples were never destroyed by invaders from the west to subjugate the people of this land

    The best part of the Ayodhya verdict is the judgement of Justice Sudhir Agarwal. Though a huge affair running to over 5,200 pages, his is one of the most organised and best-written judgements. One has to look at only the index he has provided in Volume 21 of the judgement to get to what one wants — whether it is to know what the decision was on any of the issues, or to search for any documentary evidence or oral testimony used or any case law considered. Any reasonably skilled reader of legal document may use the index as the key to unravel the judgement in a couple of days, which might otherwise take a fortnight.

    It must have taken Justice Agarwal long periods of stress and labour to produce such wonderful judicial document. And more, to maintain confidentiality, he must have done lot of the work himself. Also for writing the main judgement, he has analysed minutely all the evidence, documentary, oral and technical, himself; so that the other judgements just supplement his where there is agreement. But for his huge effort, it would be extremely difficult to unravel the Ayodhya verdict. If Justice SU Khan could write his “very short” judgement it is thanks to Justice Agarwal writing a very long one.

    The Ayodhya verdict is not just a legal affair. It discusses, frankly but with sensitivity, the Hindu-Muslim interface based on historical facts. It also touches upon history, archaeology, sociology, religion and related disciplines. A reading of the verdict will reveal its reach and depth. So, the nation must be grateful to the judges, particularly Justice Agarwal, for their stupendous work. The criticality of Justice Agarwal’s judgement, in the overall Ayodhya verdict, is manifest in that, virtually that what he has said has turned out to be the final verdict. It is because, with Justice Dharam Veer Sharma and Justice Khan taking almost divergent positions, to the extent Justice Agarwal agreed with either of them on any issue, his views became the final view on that issue. Just see the effect of his view on the most sensitive issue in the Ayodhya case, namely: Was a pre-existing Hindu temple destroyed to make way for the mosque?

    Even though he agrees that a massive broken Hindu structure was found under the mosque, Justice Khan does not agree that any Hindu structure was demolished to build the disputed mosque. But Justice Sharma is firm that a Hindu temple was indeed demolished to build the mosque. Justice Agarwal analyses the evidence over some 900 pages and after holding that a Hindu temple predated the mosque at the spot, he says, on evidence, that “it can safely be said that the erstwhile structure was a Hindu temple and it was demolished, whereafter the disputed structure was raised”. This makes it the court’s view. But, having held that a Hindu temple existed before the mosque was constructed, Justice Agarwal was not keen to pursue the demolition issue. But he does. Why? Read on.

    He was compelled to do so by the lies of the experts relied on by the Muslim parties. Prefacing that, for the purposes of the case, it was “sufficient” to stop at finding “that the mosque had been raised” on a pre-existing “massive temple”, Justice Agarwal writes, “It would not have been necessary to tell positively that there existed a massive temple structure, which was demolished and thereafter the disputed structure was raised.” He then explains why then did he do that thus: The statement of so many experts appearing on behalf of the plaintiffs (Sunni Waqf Board) asserting that “temples in past were never demolished by the then Muslim Rulers or invaders from Persia etc, is so blatant a lie” that he was “reluctant to ignore it without referring to some well known historical” accounts of the demolition of Hindu temples, some “written by Muslim writers themselves”. After that only, considering the massive evidence about destruction of temples, including at Ayodhya, Justice Agarwal concluded that a Hindu temple was indeed destroyed to build the mosque. Yet the visual media had kept on insisting throughout September 30 that the court had indeed held that “no temple was destroyed to build the mosque”.

    The critical evidence that became one of the most contentious issues between the Hindu parties and the Muslims parties in the court was the Archaeological Survey of India Report which established that a massive structure “indicative of the remains which are distinctive features” of “the temples of north India” exsited under the mosque. The first point to note was that the ASI was brought by the High Court on its own in 2002, not by any party or the Government. The ASI did the GPRS survey and excavation under the High Court’s orders and under supervision by two judicial officers appointed by the court, in the presence of the counsel for the parties.

    But the most disgusting part of this critical exercise, the importance of which to the case is brilliantly captured by Justice Agarwal, was the way the Muslim parties attacked the ASI work in the court, including on the ground that the BJP was ruling then, and that the ASI team did not include sufficient number of Muslims in the excavation work. This led to the court chiding them for suffixing experts with “Muslim”, “Hindu” or “Christian”. But now, after the verdict, the secularists are attacking the High Court for relying on the ASI’s report almost in the same language in which the Muslim parties had attacked the ASI prior to the verdict!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev, brilliant , keep up the good work, I am only interested in rationality, objectivity and TRUTH.
    beleive me I cannot wait to buy , if the verdict comes out in book form. here is an idea for the publishers to consider. I think we all be be enlightened in so many ways.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is something for Jihadis like Ravi-
    http://dailypioneer.com/EditorsMail.html

    India needs no lessons in secularism
    This refers to the article, “Uncertain politics ahead” by Prof. CP Bhambhri (3rdeye, October 2). Have Hindus at any time questioned the authenticity of Adam being the first man and Eve, the first woman, being created from his rib bone as believed by the Christians? Did they question the historicity of Gibreel or the Prophet’s ascension to heaven on a winged horse from the Mount of Aqsa? So what is wrong on the part of the Lucknow Bench of the Allahabad High Court in upholding the Hindu belief that a particular spot in Ayodhya is Sri Ram’s birthplace?

    Secularism is an European concept conceived to counter the abuse of papal power. It has indeed no relevance to the Indian scenario for the simple reason that Hindus, constituting the majority of Indian population, can be atheists, agnostics, believers of one god or a pantheon of 33 crores. Hindus not only respect other faiths including Islam, but take part in religious celebrations of other faiths like Christmas and Id. So, Hindus need no lessons in secularism. Mr LK Advani has aptly said: “So long as India remains Hindu-majority, India will be secular and democratic.”

    One may ask the votaries and apologists of Islam whether Islam is compatible with secularism. For instance, would Pakistan and Bangladesh, which were parts of British India till 1947, respond positively to Prof Bhambhri’s demands of secularism, in case he proposes so? One can also say that the demolition of Babri Masjid is statistically insignificant compared to hundreds of temples destroyed by Muslim invaders and rulers for over 600 years. I would request the learned professor to provide the statistics of temples destroyed by Muslims and those of mosques by Hindu generals. Scholars classify Hindu literature into the Vedas-Upanishads, Puranas and Itihasas and Ramayana and Mahabharata are part of the last category. Hence, these two epics have their basis in history. Even Sri Lanka, where Ravana was vanquished according to the Ramayana, takes enormous pride in preserving the Ashok Vatica where Sita was held captive. It is destination for both secular and religious tourists.

    Saratchandra Panda

    Bhubaneswar

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Get rid of secularism.

    it is nothing but a way to suppress Hindus, and make them minority and eventually declare a islamic theocracy..

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Shan and others,
    I think it is time we ignore the hard-line elements such as Fake-Ravi and let them sulk.
    They are the same people who were asking us all to respect the verdict and are now indulging in most ugly behaviour calling everyone Sanghi etc.

    I understand their feeling..They have lost and now secular shops are out of business.

    Both Hindus and Muslims have seen thru the designs of Fake-Seculars (congress et. all) and Knickerwallahs (RSS et. all). They are not going to riot just to keep these bigots in business. I can see seculars egging on muslims to react violently.

    There are chances in future that these Fake-seculars will justify islamic terrorism citing this verdict as reason. If we allow these secular fascist to have their way, India may face another wave of bombing by well EDUCATED Indian Mujahideen. These are the kind of educated muslims that Justice Kachchar has been hoping for.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You are a paranoid delusional Walter Mitty character.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    SORE LOSER..Now that can be only some delusional Jihadi like kasab type.

    You are seriously in need of help. Did you read what your brother faisal said in US court? “Muslims are not ruled by human laws”…I guess only animal laws are applicable to delusional guys like you.

    Buzz off..

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is another symbol of Islamic tolerance for FAKE-SECULARS from Qutub Complex.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Qutbminarsculpt.jpg

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here more for those who believe poor muslims are always innocent-
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/mukulb/3990893353/

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is link from Indian Govt. (secular led by Congress) that talks about destroyed temples in Qutub complex. So here is the proof enough that muslim invaders indulged in demolition of temples (including Jain).

    http://india.gov.in/knowindia/qutub_minar.php

    Few years back, taliban blew up bamiyan Buddha. We are also aware of the fact that nalanda too was ransacked by people belonging to religion of peace.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Afghanistan_Statua_di_Budda_1.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Destruction_of_Buddhas_March_21_2001.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BigBuddha.jpg

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is link from Indian Govt. (secular led by Congress) that talks about destroyed temples in Qutub complex. So here is the proof enough that muslim invaders indulged in demolition of temples (including Jain).

    http://india.gov.in/knowindia/qutub_minar.php

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No one here has ever stated that Muslim invaders did not destroy Hindu temples, they did and some Mughal rulers like Aurangzeb, did more than others.

    The point is that all invaders – irrespective of their religion – loot and plunder the conquered lands. I whole heartedly condemn such lootings.

    The point is that if you regress long enough into ancient history, you would find that Hindu Kings from one area looted and plundered Hindu Temples of the areas they conquered. A list is supplied above.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I don’t agree with you. Not all invaders destroy earlier structures (I don’t remember british doing that ever).

    This destruction of temple was essential part of Islamic conquest because they considered Hindus kafir and their ritual Kafirana. They were against the ‘BUT’ (IDOL) culture so they destroyed temples considering them as FILTH. The loot was part of this ISLAMIC conquest process.

    India has been invaded by Huns, Greeks, Portugese, Dutch, French, British but except for portugese none indulged in destruction of temples.

    You should honestly accept the fact that muslims destroyed temples due to ideology (political Islam) but don’t think I will ask all mosque to be converted by to the temple.

    I think we should treat Ayodhya as ONE OF case and let all other places of worship remain in STATUS-QUO (1993 ruling).

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Rajeev, now this is interesting, I have to do a bit of reading on crusade, I know they went to liberate the christiandom’s mecca ie, jerusalem , but I am not aware they destroyed mosque, I will have to do some serious reading(only if I can find time). But Napolean conquered Egypt , french conquered north africa, did massive repression , but mosque burning , I am not aware of that

    Ravi Reply:

    The Brits, Dutch, French and Portughese came as TRADERS not as Conqueres

    Rajeev Reply:

    So did Arabs in Kerela.

    Did British, French and portugese not use military force to capture land in India? If this is not invasion then what is?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Raj/Ravi

    Portugese did not do any destruction of religious places in Kerala when they landed. Obviously the tarders landed first, then the king’s men followed. They did form treaties with Zamorin of Calicut, Cochin king, and Ali Rakja of Kannur/Cannanore. They did favor children of Portugese/Karalite marriages for employment. They actually were tough with the Jacobite/Syrian Christians because they w ere following “indianized/Keralized” worship patterns and Maaayalam sermons; and they nated allll christians to follow the Latin rites –Latin Catholics in Kerala started like this –christians who move dto LAtin rites due to portugese pressure..
    British came with the army (both the east india company army and I believe the Queen’s army), with all intention of controlling trade and territories and people.

    Dutch, I believe, translated lots of ayurvedic books from Malayalam to Dutch ,as well as codified many medicinal plants,, fruits etc ifound in KErala..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Gopi,
    Please read more about portugese conquest of GOA. The hindu temples were demolished, prompting hindus to hide idols in nearby kingdom or interior part of Goa.

    The mangeshi temple history is the common history for all temples in Goa.

  • http://- Rajeev

    Few years back, taliban blew up bamiyan Buddha. We are also aware of the fact that nalanda too was ransacked by people belonging to religion of peace.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Afghanistan_Statua_di_Budda_1.jpg

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev
  • http://- Rajeev
  • http://- Rajeev

    @Shan,
    I think it is time for another comic break. This blog describes in details all flavors of Indian secularism. It’s long but worth reading.

    http://india.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/209173.shtml
    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism
    By Radhika Singh 28/02/2004 At 17:22

    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism

    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism
    (with Secularism Ji ki Arati)
    http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/psec.html

    SIGNED: Teesta Seetalvad, Father Cedric Prakash, John Dayal, Maulana Wahiuddin, Comrade Romila Thapar, Comrade D. N. Jha, Comrade R. S. Sharma, Jawed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Darryl D’Monte, Dilip D’Souza, Dileep Simeon, Comrade AnandPatwardhan, Father Valson Thampu, Seema Mustafa, Justice Tarkunde, Ram Puniyani, Comrade K. N. Pannikar, Harbans Mukhia, Shahi Imam Bukhari, Syed Shahabuddin, Comrade N. Ram, Comrade Praful Bidwai, Comrade Amulya Ganguli, Ashghar Ali Engineer, Rafique Zakaria, M. J. Akbar, Maulana ABC, Father XYZ, Comrade MNO and 108 other secularists.

    We, the concerned Indian Secular Intellectuals (ISI) of the Secular People’s Republic of India believe that the destruction of the Babri Masjid was truly a cataclysmic event that has now robbed Hinduism of innocence for all times to come. It has now demolished, more resoundingly than that structure, the false notion that Hinduism is or ever was tolerant. The event has only vindicated the great Secular Eminent Historian (E. H.) Romila Thapar’s thesis that the notion of ‘tolerant Hinduism’ is only a myth. After all, the fascist Hindus have earlier destroyed thousands of Buddhist and Jaina and Animist shrines, setting a strong precedent for later, similar acts of egalitarian Muslim rulers of India. When the Muslim rulers were destroying temples, they were only following a precedent set up by Hindus. They were also replacing the fascist, totalitarian Smriti with the egalitarian Sharia, as proved by the secular historian Mohammad Habib.

    In fact, so thorough were the actions of fascist Hindus in the past that they have not left any literary and archaeological trace of the destruction of these Stupas, Jaina temples and Animist Shrines. But we are sure that the Hindus did all this in ancient times, several centuries ago. However we also concur with Western Indologists that Hinduism and Hindus are themselves a modern construct of the 19th century and therefore did not exist before then. In contrast to fascist Hindus, the secular Muslim rulers practiced sound environmentalism by recycling the temple parts into their secular mosques. By incorporating temple parts into mosques, they have demonstrated their commitment to a pluralist society and respect for diversity.

    Secularist Mani Shankar Aiyer had stated in the Indian Parliament that the remnants of the displaced Hindu Vishvanath temple embedded in the walls of the Gyanavapi Aurangzebi mosque at Varanasi are a symbol of our beautiful composite culture and represent Islam and Hinduism in embrace.

    The great secular Eminent Historian D. N. Jha had declared that when Hindus started worshipping cows around 300 AD, they sowed the seeds of modern day communalism. We argue that Valmiki sowed the seeds of Hindu fascism much earlier. The incident of Babri demolition should clinch any dithering on this matter. Therefore, in the interests of our secular polity, Ramayana should be banned. T V serials like Ramayana and Mahabharata not only promote puerile superstitions and undermine the scientific temper of secular India, they also promote Hindu chauvinism. Therefore, all such serials should be banned, particularly because Doordarshan cannot show serials on Prophet Muhammad.

    Many of us had vowed that if the fascist, Hindu Nationalist Party BJP comes to power, we would leave India. But now we have changed our minds and want to stay back. This change is not because we continue to enjoy government largesse and have compromised with the fascist forces, but because we want to spend time in educating Indians by organizing morchas, bandhs, dharnas, by writing apologias for Hurriyat conference and Taliban leaders, attending Urdu Mushairas with Pakistanis at 5 Star Hotels and gobbling shahi paneer and murga massallams, making free govt. paid trips to Lahore, and holding the Indian parliament to ransom over the rise of Hindu fascism. In fact, many of us like N. Ram, K N Pannikar and Romila Thapar do spend a lot of time abroad alerting people about rising fascism in India.

    The destruction of the great Babri Masjid might not have split India, as predicted earlier by our Theory, but it has certainly vivisected Hindus and Muslim minds, which co-existed in perfect secular bliss and harmony before that. After the Day of Judgment (6 December 1992), there were fortunately great secular upsurges. Secular Muslim intellectuals erased 450 communal Hindu structures in India, 200 in Bangladesh, 100 in Pakistan, 22 in Great Britain and 1 at Toronto (Canada).

    Our secular predictions that Hindu fascists will take revenge on hapless minorities, and thus repeat history have come true. The Hindu fanatics indeed repeated history and enslaved millions of minority members and exported them to Central Asia and the Middle East. They imposed Jaziyah tax on ‘Mlecchas’, raped their women, destroyed thousands of mosques, burnt thousands of ‘mleccha’ scriptures, destroyed secular Madrassaas and seminaries, forcibly converted several thousand/nay millions of minority community members whom they called now ‘mlecchas’ (because the ‘mlecchas’ had called them ‘kafirs’). To ‘defend’ their agglomeration of gutter and animist cults called ‘Hinduism’, the xenophobic, fanatical, revisionist, revanchist, majoritarian, totalitarian, autocratic, crass, crude, parochial, feudal, racist, misogynist, anti-Dalit, anti-minority, chauvinist, Nazi (phew! Saying all these words gives so much instant relief to our secular minds) Hindu fascists invaded all lands from Spain to India – just like the secular Arabs did immediately after the death of the great Prophet to defend egalitarian Islam.

    In fact, it is because of the destruction of the Babri Masjid that the oppressed Talibans were forced to destroy the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Have they not said so already? We agree with them. Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid also stated that he will intervene on this matter provided the fascist BJP government returns the Babri Masjid to Muslims. Again, we agree with him, just as we have always. In fact, it is because of the destruction of Babri Masjid in 1992, that the Muslim secularists drove out the Hindus of Kashmir in 1989, destroyed 50 Hindu temples in 1980’s and created Pakistan in 1947. Therefore, although we cannot guarantee that the Masjid will be rebuilt at the very spot, we will nevertheless disrupt the proceedings of the Parliament every year in December to prove that we are ‘More Secular than Thou’.

    It is because of the Babri demolition and the Nuclear blasts by the fascist Hindu nationalists, that Pakistan invaded Kargil. The Hindu fascist storm troopers and jingoists then actually had the cunning to launch their blitzkrieg at Kargil to push these egalitarian forces into Pakistan! It is because of the Babri Masjid demolition that the Mumbai riots took place. It is because of the Babri Masjid demolition that the secular Muslim underworld leaders blasted bomb at Mumbai. It is all the fault of Hindus.

    Hindus should not now take revenge because Hinduism teaches forgiveness and the equality of all religions. Hinduism teaches that this world is an illusion. So why crib over the destruction of a few temples here and there. But most important, Hinduism teaches non-violence. As Mahatma Gandhi had told Hindus in Pakistan: “It is better to stay there and die to the last man, than to evenresist your Muslim attackers. By sacrificing your lives meekly for the sake of non-violence, Hindus will add great prestige to their religion”. We might beSecular Hindus ourselves, or might not be Hindus at all, but we consider it out duty to remind you of your traditions. Therefore, by raising your voices against imaginary atrocities on Hindus, do not re-invent Hinduism and destroy your religion.

    We should learn from the secular example of Maulana Wahiuddin. When asked to pray for the Indian soldiers fighting at Kargil, he refused; under the pretext that he cannot pray for people who are fighting the Muslims. In reality, he did not want to side with the Hindu nationalist government who was fighting with our neighbors, instead of striking peace with them. This is why secular leaders Soniaji and Priyankaji went for the Maulana’s funeral later, to express theirsupport for the cause of secularism in India.

    We, as secular, liberal and neutral historians, had earlier warned that all this will happen if our infallible truth (that there was no temple beneath the Babri mosque) is not propagated and forced down the throats of RSS fascists. Even if there were a temple there, it had only probably displaced a pre-existing Buddhist Stupa. So what if there is no proof of the Stupa? You cannot equate our infallible assertions with the 200 artifacts of some temple found beneath the mosque after its demolition, because these artifacts are either fabrications or clearly are pilfered items from museums of Beijing, Havana and Calcutta. We have explained these two points in great detail in our party organ Frontline with the help of Harvard scholar Michael Witzel. So, do not blame us for this mess. If only Narasimha Rao had emulated the secular hero Maulana Mulayam Singh Yadav, and had ordered the police to mow down the thousands of Hindutva fascists at Ayodhya who were chanting fascist slogans like ‘Jai Siya Ram’, this communal upsurge could have been stopped.

    And do not even dare to compare the destruction of Babri Masjid with the demolition of thousands of temples in the world by Muslims. Do not even mention the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kabul to Srinagar. All these were caused by Hindu cunning, and none of these events is more heinous than the destruction of the Babri Masjid. The murder of Graham Staines is a close second. All other crimes in India are not even a distant third. Besides, don’t you know that you could promote Hindu communalism and fascism by even mentioning the destruction of temples at Kashmir? Knowing this, if you protest against the destruction of temples or killings of Hindus anywhere and anytime, you become a de-facto dirty Hindu fascist and Hindu Talibans, and we can charge you with carrying out with public amputations, of subjugating women, of abetting international terrorism, of sheltering Osama like terrorists and of carrying out airplane hijackings. In any case, all Hindu organizations are Talibans of India. They are all Fascists.

    We agree that two wrongs do not make one right. But then, why are you being presumptuous in condemning Taliban’s actions as wrong without considering thatthey have been driven to desperation by the Capitalist West. The West is hypocritical because it never cared to save the dying Afghans caught in the crossfire between Talibans and its misogynist, revanchist, autocratic, fanatical enemies. Neither should you bring in the question of Kashmiri Hindus here. Did not one of the secularists prove earlier that the Pandits are the ones who created a communal crisis in the valley by sucking up to fascist Jagmohan and leaving the secular Kashmir valley en masse? Nor can you compare the destruction of the great Babri with the supposed destruction of countless temples in the world. First, and most important, Babri is Babri. Its destruction cannot be compared to the alleged destruction of any temple. Secondarily, there could be economic or political motives at work in the alleged destruction of temples, as shown by Western academic Richard Eaton on our party organ (‘Frontline’)whereas, the demolition of Babri Masjid was clearly the handiwork of fascists, fanatics, anti-Dalit, anti-Minority, revanchist, totalitarian, majoritarian, khakhi knickerwallas. In any case, we reiterate again that any attempts to brow beat the Talibans without looking at the larger secular picture is only promoting Hindutva fascism and lands the critic into the camp of fascists.

    And so what if secular Secular scholar Iravatham Mahadevan had also asserted that there was a temple beneath the mosque? He has so far not equated the animist, primitive, bucolic Vedic culture with the Harappan culture. Therefore he remains a secularist. If he were to change his opinion tomorrow and say that the Vedic culture and Harappan Culture were one, then we will label him a communal saffronist. Do you not remember what we did to B. B. Lal, the doyen of Indian archaeology? He might have ‘Lal’ (= red) as his surname, but we made him ’saffronist’ as soon as he rejected the Aryan Invasion Theory and also said that a temple existed at the site of the mosque. We might have quoted his writings approvingly earlier, but now all of them are rejected, and labeled ’saffronist and communal’ retrospectively.

    So these are the two litmus tests to decide whether you are a secularist or whether you are a fanatic/reactionary/revisionist/feudal/bigot/narrow minded/ revanchist/communal/cow belter BIMARU/ Upper Caste chauvinist Hindu fascist (especially Brahmin-Bania type)-

    1. Your stance on the Aryan Invasion Theory and,

    2. Your stance on Babri (pronounced similar to the ‘Rabri’, the spouse of the secular hero Laloo who stopped fascist Advani’s Japanese Toyota van christenedas ‘Ratha’).

    And this is how we should interpret the results of the Litmus test for deciding if a person is communal or if he is secular-

    1. If your color changes from an indifferent, cold blue to a livid, secular LEFTIST red whenever the name Babri masjid is uttered, you are a secularist.

    2. And whenever your RIGHT-eous red of indignation changes to a cold, indifferent blue at the mention of the expulsion of Kashmiri Hindus from Kashmir, you are a secularist again.

    Last but not the least, we want to warn our innocent and gullible secular countrymen to be wary of these peddlers of hate who come in various guises. These Nazi Hindus can go to any extent to hide their real faces. To refurbish their international image, these fascists have been feed 50,000 homeless victims of the Kutch earthquake since 26 January 2001. These angels of death have rescued 1500 injured from below the debris. These pyromaniac Hindu Nazis have cremated 2000 corpses, probably because they have a lot of practice from incinerating Christian priests and other minority community members every now and then in gas chambers. We could have also done all this work in a secular way. For instance, we organized mass funds collection drives in Kolkata to support Cuba and Comrade Fidel Castro when his country was being besieged by Capitalist, Imperialist United States. This time however, most of us decided not to waste our precious time at Kutch. Instead, we have gone all over the world, and have spoken to the International press on the anti-Dalit, anti-Minority and fascist nature of these pretenders, fascists, Nazi Hindu fanatics.

    Down with Hindu Nazis! Down with Fascists!

    To promote Secularism, we must sing the following secular Bhajans everyday 5 times a day facing Beijing or Islamabad–

    Secularism Ji ki Arati
    OM (Only Marxist)

    Chhanda:
    NRam naam ras lijiye manuva, NRam naam ras lijiye|
    Tajiye ku-Sangh, SAHMAT sung baithiye,
    Romila bhajan nish-din kijiye||

    Chupai:
    Hindustan, Pakistan ka cheraa |
    Kijiye secular hridaya mein deraa ||

    Sunahum NRam, ab kahahun niketaa,
    Jahaan basahun, Romila Thapar Sametaa |

    Marx hi nivedit, bhojana karahin,
    Secular prasaad laal vastra dharahin||

    Kar nit karahin, Namboodirpad Puja,
    Soniya bharosey hridaya nahin duujaa|
    Charan Beijing teerath chali jaahin|
    Secularism basahun, tinakey man maahin||

    Doha:
    Jai Jai Jai Romila Maayi, Dayaa karo Soniya ki Naayi |
    West Bengal ik secular samaaju, JNU hi teeratharaaju ||

    Shloka:
    Sarve santu secularists,
    sarve Hindu mrtyumayaaH |
    Sarve red pustakani pasyantu,
    Maa kaschit saffronist bhavet ||

    Doha:
    Laal rang, laali lasai, bhagavaa dhvajaa giray koop |
    Laloo Mullu Yadav sahit, Hindu dharam par kooch ||

    Jai Jai kaar:
    Pakistan ki jai ho, Hindustan ka naash ho |
    Minorities mein sadbhaavaa ho, secularists ka kalyaan ho ||

    Marx suta Jyoti Basu ki jai !
    Bolo Romila Thapar ki Jai!
    Jai Jai Shabana Samarth |

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism
    By Radhika Singh 28/02/2004 At 17:22

    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism

    Satire on Indian Pseudo-secularism
    (with Secularism Ji ki Arati)
    http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/psec.html

    SIGNED: Teesta Seetalvad, Father Cedric Prakash, John Dayal, Maulana Wahiuddin, Comrade Romila Thapar, Comrade D. N. Jha, Comrade R. S. Sharma, Jawed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Darryl D’Monte, Dilip D’Souza, Dileep Simeon, Comrade AnandPatwardhan, Father Valson Thampu, Seema Mustafa, Justice Tarkunde, Ram Puniyani, Comrade K. N. Pannikar, Harbans Mukhia, Shahi Imam Bukhari, Syed Shahabuddin, Comrade N. Ram, Comrade Praful Bidwai, Comrade Amulya Ganguli, Ashghar Ali Engineer, Rafique Zakaria, M. J. Akbar, Maulana ABC, Father XYZ, Comrade MNO and 108 other secularists.

    We, the concerned Indian Secular Intellectuals (ISI) of the Secular People’s Republic of India believe that the destruction of the Babri Masjid was truly a cataclysmic event that has now robbed Hinduism of innocence for all times to come. It has now demolished, more resoundingly than that structure, the false notion that Hinduism is or ever was tolerant. The event has only vindicated the great Secular Eminent Historian (E. H.) Romila Thapar’s thesis that the notion of ‘tolerant Hinduism’ is only a myth. After all, the fascist Hindus have earlier destroyed thousands of Buddhist and Jaina and Animist shrines, setting a strong precedent for later, similar acts of egalitarian Muslim rulers of India. When the Muslim rulers were destroying temples, they were only following a precedent set up by Hindus. They were also replacing the fascist, totalitarian Smriti with the egalitarian Sharia, as proved by the secular historian Mohammad Habib.

    In fact, so thorough were the actions of fascist Hindus in the past that they have not left any literary and archaeological trace of the destruction of these Stupas, Jaina temples and Animist Shrines. But we are sure that the Hindus did all this in ancient times, several centuries ago. However we also concur with Western Indologists that Hinduism and Hindus are themselves a modern construct of the 19th century and therefore did not exist before then. In contrast to fascist Hindus, the secular Muslim rulers practiced sound environmentalism by recycling the temple parts into their secular mosques. By incorporating temple parts into mosques, they have demonstrated their commitment to a pluralist society and respect for diversity.

    Secularist Mani Shankar Aiyer had stated in the Indian Parliament that the remnants of the displaced Hindu Vishvanath temple embedded in the walls of the Gyanavapi Aurangzebi mosque at Varanasi are a symbol of our beautiful composite culture and represent Islam and Hinduism in embrace.

    The great secular Eminent Historian D. N. Jha had declared that when Hindus started worshipping cows around 300 AD, they sowed the seeds of modern day communalism. We argue that Valmiki sowed the seeds of Hindu fascism much earlier. The incident of Babri demolition should clinch any dithering on this matter. Therefore, in the interests of our secular polity, Ramayana should be banned. T V serials like Ramayana and Mahabharata not only promote puerile superstitions and undermine the scientific temper of secular India, they also promote Hindu chauvinism. Therefore, all such serials should be banned, particularly because Doordarshan cannot show serials on Prophet Muhammad.

    Many of us had vowed that if the fascist, Hindu Nationalist Party BJP comes to power, we would leave India. But now we have changed our minds and want to stay back. This change is not because we continue to enjoy government largesse and have compromised with the fascist forces, but because we want to spend time in educating Indians by organizing morchas, bandhs, dharnas, by writing apologias for Hurriyat conference and Taliban leaders, attending Urdu Mushairas with Pakistanis at 5 Star Hotels and gobbling shahi paneer and murga massallams, making free govt. paid trips to Lahore, and holding the Indian parliament to ransom over the rise of Hindu fascism. In fact, many of us like N. Ram, K N Pannikar and Romila Thapar do spend a lot of time abroad alerting people about rising fascism in India.

    The destruction of the great Babri Masjid might not have split India, as predicted earlier by our Theory, but it has certainly vivisected Hindus and Muslim minds, which co-existed in perfect secular bliss and harmony before that. After the Day of Judgment (6 December 1992), there were fortunately great secular upsurges. Secular Muslim intellectuals erased 450 communal Hindu structures in India, 200 in Bangladesh, 100 in Pakistan, 22 in Great Britain and 1 at Toronto (Canada).

    Our secular predictions that Hindu fascists will take revenge on hapless minorities, and thus repeat history have come true. The Hindu fanatics indeed repeated history and enslaved millions of minority members and exported them to Central Asia and the Middle East. They imposed Jaziyah tax on ‘Mlecchas’, raped their women, destroyed thousands of mosques, burnt thousands of ‘mleccha’ scriptures, destroyed secular Madrassaas and seminaries, forcibly converted several thousand/nay millions of minority community members whom they called now ‘mlecchas’ (because the ‘mlecchas’ had called them ‘kafirs’). To ‘defend’ their agglomeration of gutter and animist cults called ‘Hinduism’, the xenophobic, fanatical, revisionist, revanchist, majoritarian, totalitarian, autocratic, crass, crude, parochial, feudal, racist, misogynist, anti-Dalit, anti-minority, chauvinist, Nazi (phew! Saying all these words gives so much instant relief to our secular minds) Hindu fascists invaded all lands from Spain to India – just like the secular Arabs did immediately after the death of the great Prophet to defend egalitarian Islam.

    In fact, it is because of the destruction of the Babri Masjid that the oppressed Talibans were forced to destroy the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Have they not said so already? We agree with them. Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid also stated that he will intervene on this matter provided the fascist BJP government returns the Babri Masjid to Muslims. Again, we agree with him, just as we have always. In fact, it is because of the destruction of Babri Masjid in 1992, that the Muslim secularists drove out the Hindus of Kashmir in 1989, destroyed 50 Hindu temples in 1980’s and created Pakistan in 1947. Therefore, although we cannot guarantee that the Masjid will be rebuilt at the very spot, we will nevertheless disrupt the proceedings of the Parliament every year in December to prove that we are ‘More Secular than Thou’.

    It is because of the Babri demolition and the Nuclear blasts by the fascist Hindu nationalists, that Pakistan invaded Kargil. The Hindu fascist storm troopers and jingoists then actually had the cunning to launch their blitzkrieg at Kargil to push these egalitarian forces into Pakistan! It is because of the Babri Masjid demolition that the Mumbai riots took place. It is because of the Babri Masjid demolition that the secular Muslim underworld leaders blasted bomb at Mumbai. It is all the fault of Hindus.

    Hindus should not now take revenge because Hinduism teaches forgiveness and the equality of all religions. Hinduism teaches that this world is an illusion. So why crib over the destruction of a few temples here and there. But most important, Hinduism teaches non-violence. As Mahatma Gandhi had told Hindus in Pakistan: “It is better to stay there and die to the last man, than to evenresist your Muslim attackers. By sacrificing your lives meekly for the sake of non-violence, Hindus will add great prestige to their religion”. We might beSecular Hindus ourselves, or might not be Hindus at all, but we consider it out duty to remind you of your traditions. Therefore, by raising your voices against imaginary atrocities on Hindus, do not re-invent Hinduism and destroy your religion.

    We should learn from the secular example of Maulana Wahiuddin. When asked to pray for the Indian soldiers fighting at Kargil, he refused; under the pretext that he cannot pray for people who are fighting the Muslims. In reality, he did not want to side with the Hindu nationalist government who was fighting with our neighbors, instead of striking peace with them. This is why secular leaders Soniaji and Priyankaji went for the Maulana’s funeral later, to express theirsupport for the cause of secularism in India.

    We, as secular, liberal and neutral historians, had earlier warned that all this will happen if our infallible truth (that there was no temple beneath the Babri mosque) is not propagated and forced down the throats of RSS fascists. Even if there were a temple there, it had only probably displaced a pre-existing Buddhist Stupa. So what if there is no proof of the Stupa? You cannot equate our infallible assertions with the 200 artifacts of some temple found beneath the mosque after its demolition, because these artifacts are either fabrications or clearly are pilfered items from museums of Beijing, Havana and Calcutta. We have explained these two points in great detail in our party organ Frontline with the help of Harvard scholar Michael Witzel. So, do not blame us for this mess. If only Narasimha Rao had emulated the secular hero Maulana Mulayam Singh Yadav, and had ordered the police to mow down the thousands of Hindutva fascists at Ayodhya who were chanting fascist slogans like ‘Jai Siya Ram’, this communal upsurge could have been stopped.

    And do not even dare to compare the destruction of Babri Masjid with the demolition of thousands of temples in the world by Muslims. Do not even mention the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kabul to Srinagar. All these were caused by Hindu cunning, and none of these events is more heinous than the destruction of the Babri Masjid. The murder of Graham Staines is a close second. All other crimes in India are not even a distant third. Besides, don’t you know that you could promote Hindu communalism and fascism by even mentioning the destruction of temples at Kashmir? Knowing this, if you protest against the destruction of temples or killings of Hindus anywhere and anytime, you become a de-facto dirty Hindu fascist and Hindu Talibans, and we can charge you with carrying out with public amputations, of subjugating women, of abetting international terrorism, of sheltering Osama like terrorists and of carrying out airplane hijackings. In any case, all Hindu organizations are Talibans of India. They are all Fascists.

    We agree that two wrongs do not make one right. But then, why are you being presumptuous in condemning Taliban’s actions as wrong without considering thatthey have been driven to desperation by the Capitalist West. The West is hypocritical because it never cared to save the dying Afghans caught in the crossfire between Talibans and its misogynist, revanchist, autocratic, fanatical enemies. Neither should you bring in the question of Kashmiri Hindus here. Did not one of the secularists prove earlier that the Pandits are the ones who created a communal crisis in the valley by sucking up to fascist Jagmohan and leaving the secular Kashmir valley en masse? Nor can you compare the destruction of the great Babri with the supposed destruction of countless temples in the world. First, and most important, Babri is Babri. Its destruction cannot be compared to the alleged destruction of any temple. Secondarily, there could be economic or political motives at work in the alleged destruction of temples, as shown by Western academic Richard Eaton on our party organ (‘Frontline’)whereas, the demolition of Babri Masjid was clearly the handiwork of fascists, fanatics, anti-Dalit, anti-Minority, revanchist, totalitarian, majoritarian, khakhi knickerwallas. In any case, we reiterate again that any attempts to brow beat the Talibans without looking at the larger secular picture is only promoting Hindutva fascism and lands the critic into the camp of fascists.

    And so what if secular Secular scholar Iravatham Mahadevan had also asserted that there was a temple beneath the mosque? He has so far not equated the animist, primitive, bucolic Vedic culture with the Harappan culture. Therefore he remains a secularist. If he were to change his opinion tomorrow and say that the Vedic culture and Harappan Culture were one, then we will label him a communal saffronist. Do you not remember what we did to B. B. Lal, the doyen of Indian archaeology? He might have ‘Lal’ (= red) as his surname, but we made him ’saffronist’ as soon as he rejected the Aryan Invasion Theory and also said that a temple existed at the site of the mosque. We might have quoted his writings approvingly earlier, but now all of them are rejected, and labeled ’saffronist and communal’ retrospectively.

    So these are the two litmus tests to decide whether you are a secularist or whether you are a fanatic/reactionary/revisionist/feudal/bigot/narrow minded/ revanchist/communal/cow belter BIMARU/ Upper Caste chauvinist Hindu fascist (especially Brahmin-Bania type)-

    1. Your stance on the Aryan Invasion Theory and,

    2. Your stance on Babri (pronounced similar to the ‘Rabri’, the spouse of the secular hero Laloo who stopped fascist Advani’s Japanese Toyota van christenedas ‘Ratha’).

    And this is how we should interpret the results of the Litmus test for deciding if a person is communal or if he is secular-

    1. If your color changes from an indifferent, cold blue to a livid, secular LEFTIST red whenever the name Babri masjid is uttered, you are a secularist.

    2. And whenever your RIGHT-eous red of indignation changes to a cold, indifferent blue at the mention of the expulsion of Kashmiri Hindus from Kashmir, you are a secularist again.

    Last but not the least, we want to warn our innocent and gullible secular countrymen to be wary of these peddlers of hate who come in various guises. These Nazi Hindus can go to any extent to hide their real faces. To refurbish their international image, these fascists have been feed 50,000 homeless victims of the Kutch earthquake since 26 January 2001. These angels of death have rescued 1500 injured from below the debris. These pyromaniac Hindu Nazis have cremated 2000 corpses, probably because they have a lot of practice from incinerating Christian priests and other minority community members every now and then in gas chambers. We could have also done all this work in a secular way. For instance, we organized mass funds collection drives in Kolkata to support Cuba and Comrade Fidel Castro when his country was being besieged by Capitalist, Imperialist United States. This time however, most of us decided not to waste our precious time at Kutch. Instead, we have gone all over the world, and have spoken to the International press on the anti-Dalit, anti-Minority and fascist nature of these pretenders, fascists, Nazi Hindu fanatics.

    Down with Hindu Nazis! Down with Fascists!

    To promote Secularism, we must sing the following secular Bhajans everyday 5 times a day facing Beijing or Islamabad–

    Secularism Ji ki Arati
    OM (Only Marxist)

    Chhanda:
    NRam naam ras lijiye manuva, NRam naam ras lijiye|
    Tajiye ku-Sangh, SAHMAT sung baithiye,
    Romila bhajan nish-din kijiye||

    Chupai:
    Hindustan, Pakistan ka cheraa |
    Kijiye secular hridaya mein deraa ||

    Sunahum NRam, ab kahahun niketaa,
    Jahaan basahun, Romila Thapar Sametaa |

    Marx hi nivedit, bhojana karahin,
    Secular prasaad laal vastra dharahin||

    Kar nit karahin, Namboodirpad Puja,
    Soniya bharosey hridaya nahin duujaa|
    Charan Beijing teerath chali jaahin|
    Secularism basahun, tinakey man maahin||

    Doha:
    Jai Jai Jai Romila Maayi, Dayaa karo Soniya ki Naayi |
    West Bengal ik secular samaaju, JNU hi teeratharaaju ||

    Shloka:
    Sarve santu secularists,
    sarve Hindu mrtyumayaaH |
    Sarve red pustakani pasyantu,
    Maa kaschit saffronist bhavet ||

    Doha:
    Laal rang, laali lasai, bhagavaa dhvajaa giray koop |
    Laloo Mullu Yadav sahit, Hindu dharam par kooch ||

    Jai Jai kaar:
    Pakistan ki jai ho, Hindustan ka naash ho |
    Minorities mein sadbhaavaa ho, secularists ka kalyaan ho ||

    Marx suta Jyoti Basu ki jai !
    Bolo Romila Thapar ki Jai!
    Jai Jai Shabana Samarth |

    [Reply]

  • SKChadha

    Civilizations suggest that human started living near rivers for feeding animals (food security). Their belongings and the animals possessed by them were kept in enclosures and protected by force. This has resulted in inter-group revelries and clashes in which basically might were right. The possession and continued possession with force used to be once right. This continued possession, the marked physical boundaries and social development resulted in development of right of ownership.

    Therefore, in most of civilizations, possession is first right which is protected unless there is adverse unflinching proof of ownership. The land and building over it is immovable and hence people have different rights in it (e.g. possessory, ownership, tenurial, succession, lease hold, easement etc.). Different people may have different rights over the same land at a given time.

    Surprisingly, in India even today, there is no document which defines title to an immovable property and holding of all above rights in single person. The rights in and title to immovable property is derived from different documents produced before the courts.

    This is a classic dispute where title to land is not ascertainable and possessory right is with different parties. Moreover, with GOI acquiring the possession long back nobody hold even the possessory right to the land under limitation. Yes, people of different faith are enjoying easement rights to practice their faith over the land.

    One of the basic legal theories defines law as ‘It is a will of the political superior imposed upon political inferior’. Surprisingly, all political superiors in India i.e. Parliament, religious leaders, Hindu Mahasabha, VHP, Umma, Ullema, political parties etc. etc. rather than taking reasonable decisions shirked their responsibility by putting burden of proving the title over the Courts. I do not know how far it was correct? They are shirking their responsibility, even now, to provide good human social order. The same social order of which all of them claim to be champions. The issue will now be taken up to SC. It is a big joke ..??

    To my opinion, the history will not spare these bunches of jokers who come forward to lead the society and consider themselves as political superiors to guide the society. These jokers do not have minimum human sense equaling to the three Hon’ble Judges who have atleast taken some reasonable decisions based on evidences placed before them, considering them by their conscious and delivering verdict to maintain social order. Regards.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Totally agree

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    yo rav go and get lost to arabia! lol

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    will I find u there Dude

  • Akshay Baheti

    It is amazing how people love talking about what happened 500 years ago and 2000 years ago but conveniently ignore what happened 20 years ago. Whatever Babar did or did not do, that was the fault of his generation, not mine. That has nothing to do with my, my society’s and my country’s conscience. But what happened 20 years ago has everything to do with the same. If Babri Masjid deserved to be demolished, then by the same principle, Japan should bomb USA, Israel should bomb Germany and what not. If the Babri masjid was indeed built by demolishing a temple, and it was done at a time the Indian republic was there, then all this argument can make some sense. But right now, the judgement, while being conciliatory and all, is incomplete without the condemnation of the barbaric act of 1992, for which every Indian should be ashamed of. I am sure Lord Ram already is.

    [Reply]

    Jack Nicholson Reply:

    Those who don’t learn from history will be condemned to repeat it . Ever heard of it? You don’t learn today, tomorrow you will, when your children will be brutalized by the invadors. Wake Up.

    [Reply]

    Sher Reply:

    Akshay,

    100s of temples have been razed in Pakistan and bangladesh after 1992 demolition of structure on Ramjanambhoomi. scores of temples have allsobeen destroyed or damaged in Kashmir valley. have you ever thought about these ‘barbaric’ acts too or demolition of just one structure (which ceased to be a Mosque in 1949) is paramount to your holier-than-Hindus attitude?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev
  • http://- Rajeev
  • Jack Nicholson

    Ravi, in less than 50 years from today, after your children have been pushed into slavery, it will be too late for people like you to realize that you were poisoned; you were led around on a leash by the Muslims and while you, mere toys in the hands of puppeteers, called yourself secular and fighters for something called “human rights” and enlightened humanists – you were nothing more than traitors of our civilization.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes I am a secular (liberal) and a defender of universal human rights. I am very proud of it. Unlike you who is a Hindu Fundo a crypto fascist.

    Your speculation about the next 50 years is just fear mongering and has no basis in truth.

    People have been making such predictions for absolutely years.

    Read your history and find out who were the traitors at the time when the Mughal as well as British empire was being built. You will find some surprises in there.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    RAVs ol mushtaq………..

    why don’t you learn your history and find out how your arabian people single handedly nearly wiped out all zoroastrians or iran …yes you know the real farsi people and rightfull owners of iran ….. whom fled to india or were converted by the sword by force……and why dont you find out how your people tried to do same to india!……….your ancestors were prob the weak indian bend over backward hindu/buddist who paved a path for these moguls to enter india and spread their filth by forced conversions!

    infact why dont you pack your bags and go to arabia! im sure they’ll treat you in same manner as all your other muslim brothers…. only difference you’ll be browner……im sure they treat you indian brown muslims the same as the real muslims …..oh im sure these muslims welcome other faiths open heartedly llol……..

    deluded ravs poor baby feel sorry for you! people like you have ruined india 1000 years ago! weak indians! who paved the path for islam to take over by force!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I reccomend that you take a few doses of Imodium

    DUDE Reply:

    Take some cyanide and do us all a favour!

    take some to your brothers in arabia too!

    oh and while you’re packing your bags as well as your mecca HAT, take all of your **** brothers with you!

    you just love mohammed the peado……..why not settle in his native home town for good!

    spead the word to your fellow brown muslims!

    …………Then while you’re in your arabian home town indulging in your arabian nights, why don’t you get all your sacred abrahamic religious texts ( Tanakh, Bible, kkkoran) and sit on the toilet reading them one by one, indulging in pure made up boll ocks and pretend you don’t exist!…………….

    I’m sure the smells and pure made up fantasy text will keep you busy ……………

    peace ***

    ;-)

    Ravi Reply:

    The only smells I can presently smell are coming from the sewers of your mind.

    You are pathetic and extremely sad

    Sam Reply:

    All the people who are staunch secularists, should go to OIC countries.

    There they can spread the philosophy of secularism.
    They are really needed there, not in India.

    Can you all leave to Muslim theocratic countries and spread the light…
    Start building your temples, churches in those countries…

    Sher Reply:

    Mr Secularist Ravi,

    Ask you a simple question first, is your brand of ’secularism’ just for Hindus r it also covers Muslims in India and outside?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Simple answer.

    Firstly an individual can not be secular, Institutions and Nations can. An individual can be Liberal, a democrat, etc. Indian constitution is Secular.

    I am a Liberal, and more spcifically I am more vehemantly opposed to Political Islam, than I am to Political Hinduism. I am vigilant and not a vigilanty.

    I am very comfortable with common o garden Muslims and Hindus, who do not indulge in Religious politics. In a blog which was trying to impose Political Isam on other people, you will find me arguing against Political Muslims.

    At a fundamental level, I love India, I am a Congressman, Kashmir belongs to India.

    No Ram, is not real and in saying that I dont think that mythical Ram losses anything in its mass appeal as a role model, as a God.

    Sia Pati Ram Chander ki jai.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Congressmen today means corrupt, opportunist and anti-national.

    Ravi Reply:

    And I guess that BJP/RSS/VHP means ethnic cleansing fascists.

    Not just these days but ever since the Shalwarpehankar, Golimarkar and all the walrus moustachioed right wing pseudo Hindus, plunged the politics of India into a religious ghetto.

    DUDE Reply:

    YO sher KRAN ………. GO BACK TO ARABIA

    AND RAV GHANDER …… you’re just a D.I.C.K. ……………At least I admit it….. you false muzzzo

    go lick your muslim masters a s s in arabia and take your paaaaki people with you!

    go on you weak indian! bend over backward ancestral twerps that got converted! weak t it…….

    go to arabia live your muslim life to max,………… preach to the arabs to build temples, synagogues, churches in arabia! see how multicultural they are ………. !

    vote for dude!

    DUDE Reply:

    Yo Ravs…..

    yOur boy RAM was real just like your mum.

    VOTE FOR DUDE!

    DUDE Reply:

    YO RAVS NO OFFENCE TO YOUR MUM, IM SURE SHES A SWEET HEART
    ***

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    You are mistaken. I am not a BJPmen or RSSmen. I am not a slave like you.

    I’ll support the party that will work for the nation. I’m still waiting for that party to come.

    You consider dynasty more important than the nation so I am not really surprised by your blind faith in fake-secularism.

    The congress is mother of all problems starting from J&K to China to Corruption to Pakistan to being treated as second rung nation to massive corruption total loss of self-respect under Italian mafia (sonia and rahul) rule to backboneless prime minister to CWG mess to Ayodhya fiasco to knucklehead slave like you.

    You should worry for billion of dollars that your masters (Italian company) is stashing away in Swiss bank.

    I’ll not use remarks to degrade physical characterstics of Italian mafia but they can be called DICK-SHIT. Now Rahul can aptly be called DICK-HEAD and Sonia DICK-LICK.

    Ravi Reply:

    If yOur boy Ram was as real as sweet Pita Ji, then so was your uncle Ravan. Yes that very Ravan who had 10 heads.

    L Mirza Reply:

    Islam, in its form and focus (wahabism, quest for purity) will self-destruct unless a reformation happens, and the proces of Ijthad rebegins after 900 years.

    A pious compassionate personal Islam, more akin to our Sufism, will emerge. Many non-Muslims will accept it in their personal lives like Yoga and meditation.

    Indian Muslims have a unique historical opportunity to decouple from the Sunni extremist fundamentalist drive to drag every one to the sands of Arabia of 650.

    shan Reply:

    @Mirza Ghalib, As you are privy to the muslim mind , please tell us why THIS DECOUPLING doesn’t take. The scenario is exactly as it with christianity. As you are aware apparently Quoran has to be only recited in ARABIC. The same stricture was issued by the HOLY (PRETTY UNHOLY) ROMAN EMPIRE, you can only have prayer book in LATIN. The English revolted , they had the King James Bible in English. Did it do English nation any harm , on the contrary , they zoomed and formed the GREATEST EMPIRE ON EARTH , not only that USHERED IN THE MODERN AGE.
    Why cant there be a Islamic Martin Luther who will nail twenty thesis on the door of the grand masjid. I for one have few suggestion.
    !. Who is important Allah or Quoran, if it is Allah why bother about Quoran
    2. Why should we beleive in Quoran when so many things have been proven wrong like earth is flat.
    3The one who is supposed to have created the universe, let alone earth , how can he be bothered about trivial matters like dietary restriction , like not eating pork and why it has to be Halal.
    4. Do we accept antibiotics and by extension modern science , then why circumcision should be mandatory.
    5. why having four wives will not be forbidden , what has it got to do with ALLAH , can he be bothered about such a trifle matter.
    6. Why men should be able to divorce by just uttering talaq three times , again what has it got to do it allah, and if that is the case why cannot be changed.
    7. Is there any suggestion that ALLAH is a arabic head gear wearing person , if not then why it should be wrong to take part and enjoy another way of praying to Allah.

    Sam Reply:

    L Mirza

    Why don’t muslims accept Yoga and meditation ?
    they need it more than any others to think before they commit terrorist acts..

    Ravi Reply:

    Thank you Raejev for your very revealing contribition.

    It speaks volumes about you.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    You bare your fangs…This is what I want to expose.

    You will never be so insulting to Child molester Mohammad or womanizer Jesus.

    You should ask Sri Lankans if they consider your pitaji Ravan real.

    Here is perfect example of bigorty you double faced people practice-
    http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/health/yoga-what-is-it-exactly-2398028/

    Sher Reply:

    Firstly an individual can not be secular, Institutions and Nations can. An individual can be Liberal, a democrat, etc. Indian constitution is Secular.” UNQUOTE

    what a moronic observation is that?

    Why an individual cannot have secular leanings?

    A number of mediapersons, social butterflies, politicians would feel naked if you take the ‘chador’ of secularism off their bodies. Barkha dutts, Rajdeep sardesais, Rajeev Dhawans, Rajinder Sacchars, Laloo mian, maulana mulyam, etc would have begging bowls in their hands and stand outside pakistan High Commission if you shut down their sekularwaad cottage industry.

    You sound like a confused jihadi running desperately from getting caught in the repressive confines of secularism which is, btw, meant ONLY for Hindus.

    Of course Kashmir belong to India, did some one ask you to provide a Taliban certificate for that?

    Sam Reply:

    secularists needed..please go to Saudi arabia..

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20101006-296336/Saudis-arrest-Filipino-Catholics-at-massreport

    DUDE Reply:

    lol ravs ol chum/…………….

    one of many mistakes you’ve made along with the rest of your stupid muslim clan!

    if you think ravan had ten heads then you are one dumb f . u c , k………..

    dont speak of things you know nothing about!!!!!!!!!!!! ask your weak indian ancestors about it, ye the ones that were converted by force!

    lol

  • http://www.faithfreedom.org Jindal

    The Ayodhya verdict and the aftermath [that never came]. The ruling party had tight security all over expecting a big showdown. However, nothing happened~!

    The term Hindu has been used to define an ethnic, cultural, and political identity. This is not contested by Indians including prominent far-right Hindutva-centric or Islamic political parties in India. Therefore, “Hindu fundamentalist” is a dubious term — perhaps with origins in the clever statecraft of the Congress Party’s divisive politics, all in the name of secularism. If it indicates RSS Sevaks, I’d dismiss their practicing bamboo swirls as an Indic form of Kung Fu. Nothing fundamentalist about that in contrast to Kalashnikov bearing Islamic fundamentalists.

    The five thousand years of Indian history is about assimilation, and not imposition or division. India has been very open in the past e.g. welcoming Zoroastrians from Persia when they landed in Gujarat and assimilated as Gujarati parsis. Then a large number converts of Islam along with Muslim invaders also assimilated into the Indian way of life. Somewhere along the lines, the term Hindu is used for followers of the Hindu religion. Hinduism even as a religion can be best described as a compendium of scholarly transtheistic philosophies. The term Hindu does not even exist in those scriptures. How can Hinduism be a “religion” when there is no prophet and no two Hindus ever seem to agree on what Hinduism really is? Amartya Sen is an atheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_hinduism) and Srila Prabhupada a follower of Krishnaism and yet both are Hindus.

    Much like the term Anglosphere, the term Hindu is assimilative. It reflects more of a cultural connotation though. I’d lay it out as follows:
    1. Culturally assimilated into Indic heritage, traditions, thought, or
    2. Those who adhere to parts of the vast Indic philosophical canon, or
    3. Geographically belonging to the Indian subcontinent, or
    4. Ethnically of Indic origin.

    There are a billion other more important problems India needs to solve. It is high time that journalists (at a bare minimum) resist the bait of divisive politics or try to induce an “aftermath” sought after by some vested political interests. Let there be peace and harmony and let’s focus on the economy in order to eliminate the scourge of poverty once and for all.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Brilliantly put

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Let there be peace and harmony and let’s focus on the economy in order to eliminate the scourge of poverty once and for all.

    India became poor, only when it could not protect it’s borders.
    All the looters and invaders came when it was rich and then after that it became poor.

    Again after it becomes rich, religious jihadists and looters will invade again to make it poor…
    without resolving this jihad issue, just focusing on becoming rich is not the correct priority..

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    peace to all religions

    bar the false made up abrahamic religions!

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This should be enough to anger pro-congress talibani corrupt communal terrorist like Ravi.
    http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/08/no-naming-projects-after-indira-rajiv-says-govt.htm

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    SUMMARY OF BRAHMAN ATROCITIES THAT DESTROYED BUDDHISM IN INDIA

    1) The Divyavadana (ed. Vaidya, 282). The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord Buddha was Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga dynasty. For details and refrences do see BELOW

    2) Goyal [430] “The culprit in this case was Toramana, a member of the same dynasty as the Shaivite Mihirakula who did “immense damage to the Buddhist shrines in Gandhara, Punjab and Kashmir.” For details and refrences do see BELOW

    3) Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries, and “put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism” [Joshi, 404].

    4) The Aryamanjushrimulakalpa tells us that Pushyamitra “destroyed monasteries with relics and killed monks of good conduct.” [Jayaswal, 18-19]

    5) As Goyal [394] notes, “According to many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India.”

    6) The celebrated Tibetan historian Lama Taranatha mentions the march of Pushyamitra from Madhyadesha to Jalandhara. In the course of his campaigns, the book states, Pushyamitra burned down numerous Buddhist monasteries and killed a number of learned monks The archaeological evidence for the ravages wrought by Pushyamitra and other Hindu fanatic rulers on famous Buddhist shrines is abundant.

    7) The Brhannaradiya-purana lays it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a Buddhist even in times of great peril.

    8) The drama Mrchchhakatika shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight was considered inauspicious.

    9) The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to delude the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists.

    10) The Kerala-utpatti describes how he exterminated the Buddhists from Kerala.”

    11) The Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang (Huen Tsang), who visited India in the seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of Gauda, who was a devotee of Shiva.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Ravi,
    instead of cut and paste, why don’t you just post the link to the material on the web?
    http://www.islamabadglobe.com/?p=1109

    [Reply]

    Jindal Reply:

    The pasted text or the link Ashish has pasted is material from “the Islamabad propaganda machine”. Even a **** wouldn’t believe it. Come on guys — you’ve got to be smarter than that.

    Ravi Reply:

    Decline of Jainism in India was mainly due to other growing religious faiths like Buddhism and the Vedic Brahmanic religion……………………

    ….The consequence of the awakening of the Brahmanic religiosity was the revival of the Vaishnavite and Shaivite sects. Shaivism and Vaishnavism proved to be particularly dangerous opponents, and they did a severe damage to Jainism, particularly in the Deccan and the south.

    The Shaivite sect of the Lingayats was another mighty enemy of Jainas. Lingayats proceeded against Jainas extremely fanatically, damaged their properties and life, destroyed their temples or appropriated them for their purpose. It is said that Saint Ekantada-Ramayya had particularly excelled in the propagation of the new doctrine.

    FROM; http://www.indianetzone.com/49/decline_janism_india.htm

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Buddhist temples destroyed by Hindus.

    Another prominent seventh century murderer of Buddhists was Sudhanvan of Ujjain, already mentioned in the quotation from Goyal above as having been supposedly instigated by Kumarila Bhatt. Madhava Acharya, in his “Sankara-digvijayam” of the fourteenth century A.D., records that Suddhanvan “issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from Ramesvaram to the Himalayas“.

    Even after the Islamic invasions of India, Hindu bigotry and hatred for Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan pilgrim who visited Bihar three decaes after the invasion of Bakhtiaruddin Khilji in the 12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by Hindu mendicants who took advantage of the chaos produced by the invasion. He says that “they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and threw living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist temples. This produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi, the nine-storeyed library of the Nalanda University“. [Prakash, 213].

    Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples after their destruction. Ahir [58] notes that “The Seat of Buddha’s Enlightenment was in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952.

    Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana, the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site in 1860-61. Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated to Hindu gods mention may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in Andhra Pradesh which are now Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively. The temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa, opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a sacred shrine of the Buddhists. … And the famous Jagannatha temple at Puri in Orissa was also originally a Buddhist shrine. Similarly, the Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist shrine.”As Rajendralal Mitra notes in his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir, 59] the feet of Buddha at Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and held as the most sacred object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.

    Hinduism’s record of violence and bigotry against the peaceful followers of Lord Buddha is unparalleled. I trust this marshalling of the available evidence for the benefit of readers who may not have had access to it will impel negationists like Varma to accept and apologise for the crimes committed in the name of Hinduism.

    After hundreds of years of conflict the Brahmans took complete control of the system. They owned the people and the lands. This era of absolute Brahaman control is the darkest era of Hinduism. Many Hindus and other rebelled against the Brahamin injustices meeted out to the people

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Inspite of your best efforts ,,,
    you are not comparing similar things…

    you are forgetting, that ..
    islam hates all others as a religious dogma…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    And you think that Brahamanic Hinduism loves other religions. Hardly, it has inherent hatred for memebrs of its own religion let alone all others.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    I have exactly same words on pakistani forum. It looks like Mullah is hiding behind Ravi’s arse.

    Sher Reply:

    Lies, lies and more lies. No, I am not talking about Kuran but Ravi Muhammad’s assertion that Buddhism was destroyed by Hindus alone.

    Muslim invaders were instrumental in wiping off Buddhism from the Indian sub-continent and Afghanistan.

    Bamyan atrocities by Talibans against Buddhists is very recent for Ravi Muhammad to deny.

    As far as Khilji is concerned,

    “The Buddhist monks in these places were massacred and the common people, deprived of their priests and teachers, turned some to Brahmanism and some to Islam. Buddhism did not die out immediately or completely in Bihar.52 But Bakhtiyar’s raid on Bihar did deliver a shattering blow to Buddhism and its lost followers were gained mainly by Islam”

    ” The sack of Nalanda University by Bakhtiyar Khilji in 1193 C.E. is seen by scholars as a late milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India. Khilji is reported to have asked if there was a copy of the Koran at Nalanda before he sacked it. The Persian historian Minhaj-I-Siraj, in his chronicle the Tabaqat-i-Nasiri, reported that thousands of monks were burnt alive and thousands beheaded as Khilji tried his best to uproot Buddhism and plant Islam by the sword (emphasis added); and “smoke from burning manuscripts hung for days like a dark pall over low hills.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda) ”

    ““History of Magadha” by L.L.S. Omalley; J.F.W. James (Veena Publication, Delhi, 2005, pp. 35) mentions that: “The Buddhism of Magadha was finally swept away by the Muhammadan invasion under Bakhtiyar Khilji. In 1197 the capital, Bihar, was seized by a small party of two hundred horsemen, who rushed the postern gate, and sacked the town.” Further, the slaughter of the “shaven-headed Brahmans,” as the Muslim chronicler calls the Buddhist monks, “was so complete that when the victor searched for a competent person to explain the contents of the library not a soul was alive.”

    Dr B R Ambedkar: “The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised (sic) to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves.”

    want more?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Not really….I will let the readers decide for themsleves.

    You are an Islamophobe

    Rajeev Reply:

    Yeah, if you read history that is not pakistani version of history.

    Sher Doaba Reply:

    Got scared of exposure of Muslim fiends who destroyed whole culture and wiped out Buddhism from India?

    of course, one can understand your plight as you are fighting a losing battle trying to defend the indefensible (genocide by Muslim marauders who became your forefathers BY FORCE).

    Pity denialists like you.

    Ravi Reply:

    No one is scared of anyone, least of all, a dim wit like you.

    Muslims, did destroy temples, no one has denied that. They did not destroy any civilisation, and you do not need to go to history books for that, just look outside your windows.

    As far as denying is concerned, even in this post I am accepting that Babur and Aurangzeb and to lesser extant even other Moghul rulers destroyed Hindu temples.

    Now She of Doaba, let me see you accepting that Hindus destroyed Buddhist and Jain temples.

    If you do not, then you are a denier

    DUDE Reply:

    ravs just go home to arabia with ur paak bros……….

    islam destroyed and tried to destroy civilisations………

    zoroastrians the real persians of iran were single handedly nearly wiped out!

    foool

    admit it ur a muslim sh ..it!

    PS VOTE FOR DUDE!

    ALL BROWN DUMB MUSLIMS RE CONVERT BACK TO YOUR ANCESTRAL RELIGION!

    Sher Reply:

    Now She of Doaba, let me see you accepting that Hindus destroyed Buddhist and Jain temples……”

    Who were these ‘Hindus” you are talking about? Shaivites/Vaishnavites might have destroyed some Bodh temples but the Buddhists might have also done the same (destroying Shaiv/vaishnav temples) when their power was at peak. The dividing line between all dharmic (South Asian) faiths is very thin and there has been a great inter-faith interaction while one cannot say the same for Islam’s attitude and relationship for ALL the other faiths .

    As far as “destroying civilization” is concerned, writers like Francois gautier; Koenraad Elst, Sita Ram Goel, etc have given details of the destruction of Hindu civilization by those barbarian Arabian goatherds.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/30franc.htm

  • guest

    Islam-The Sanatana Dharma (The original religion of all people on earth)

    According to majority of muslims, Islam is in fact sanatana dharma. Read below which is endorsed (got brainwashed) by every muslim in this world. That systematic brqin washing since generations has made Islam spread like wild fire from turkey to indonesia.

    1) There is only one god. He is allah. There is no other god except him. All other gods are man made and its due to influence of satan on man’s mind.
    2) The only god Allah created this universe and made Adam and Eve to populate the earth. Incidentally Adam and Eve are the first muslims on earth. We are decendents of adam and eve. So every man is muslim. So Human and Muslim are synonyms. That makes islam the first religion in the world and hence sanatana dharma (coz it cannot be changed by humans and scripted by divine (allah)) with the long history much older than hinduism, judaism.
    3) Children of adam and eve remained muslims for some years doing namaz observing ramzan, doing roza, followed polygamy, sharia law stoning the women etc. But due to ignorance the later progeny of adam and eve forgot allah and became idol worshippers due to influence of satan on their minds and became hindus, zorastrians, romans, egyptians, greeks, budhists and hence became non muslims.
    4) But still allah was very kind and compassionate and sent in prophets like moses, abraham etc to mend or correct the ways of the people who are by then nonmuslims.
    5) Some change was brought about by those prophets but still its not up to the mark. People started misinterpreting the scripture (old new testament) added new things (old testament) or edited the old testament for their convenience (Jews) of those prophets and did not follow exactly the words of God. Lot of prophets came and temporarily took humans to islam (sanatana dharma) but satan influence was still there on humans. They (majority, except some jews) reverted back and became nonmuslims and idolworshippers (including arabs) once the prophets are gone
    6) Allah got frustrated and in the end sent the grand last prophet called mohammed. Through him he codified all that is good, divine and ancient and made him write koran the final truth and words of allah which cannot be changed and is eternal. Those who dont follow or believe that they burn in the hell. Such is the punishment for ignoring the diktat of allah. That words of god contained everything in it from science, law, politics etc.. i literally mean everything. Studying in koran means getting knowledge of everything in the world. Also since they are god’s words they cannot be changed. The law given by allah, the shariat is ultimate law. All other laws are made by man just like idols and are not valid. Only allah’s law and koran both of which are eternal are valid and has to be followed by humans. Even the constitutions of different countries are man made and not allah made. So they must not be followed. Its haram (not allowed)
    7) So slowly the humans are going back to their roots. To that of the original religion of Adam and Eve and that of allah. So the only religion which is pure and legitimate is Islam which is eternal, not corrupted by man and so it is called sanatana dharma. All other religions are man made and their scriptures written by humans so they are secular and not divine which include constitutions of all non islamic countries.
    8) Who ever became a muslim by understanding all the above facts (1-7) has a sacred duty to make all other humans who did not understand or follow the above (1-7) understand make them muslims. So they have to wage a jihad peacefully or by force until all humanity became muslims and the glory of allah spreads all corner of earth and beyond and only sanatana dharma (islam) prevails all over universe.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @guest, you have carricatured it , but it does apply to most religions.Yes the version you have posted is the flavour of the time. But at the end of the day WHERE HAS IT LANDED THEM, DESPITE OIL , THEY ARE THE MOST LAGGARD COUNTRIES ON EARTH. Also Politically they are kicked around, ALL THEIR OIL IS FOR THE WEST TO MAKE USE , INFACT WITHOUT HARAM WEST THEY CANNOT EXTRACT , WELL FIRST THEY HAVE TO KNOW WHERE OIL LIES.
    I do not know if anybody have noticed AMERICA HAS ISSUED A FIRMAN , SAUDI WILL HAVE TO BUY 35 BILLION DOLLARS OF ARMS FROM THEM. It will not include F32 JSF , because that will go to israel to keep the arabs in their place. That is why they need less of quoran more of science , rationality , economics trade etc, for which you need to junk quoran , but keep allah and keep it simple by praying and festivals , AND LET SCIENCE GUIDE AND DICTATE YOUR LIFE. Then again I am speaking to a STONE.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    @ GUEST……..

    First line made me laugh….. just like how every muslim thinks islam invented everthing on this earth including numbers …. which appeared around 30000 years ago……..they also belive they invented the ZERO………

    the first point lol made me think what a load of bolloc ks ………….. god knows how dumb people got converted to that degenerate islamic religion

    .

    [Reply]

  • guest

    So guys are u ready for the challenge to make whole earth an islamic nation and sharia law (allah’s) law as the constitution!!

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Guys,
    This guy Ravi is talibani in his outlook. All his arguements about Hindus detroying Buddhist culture are based on history taught in pakistan.

    All muslims like Ravi believe that Islam never did anything wrong whereas the proof speak just opposite of what he claims.

    Who destroyed Taxila and Nalanda? According to Talibani-terrorist Ravi, hindus but history say muslims.

    These guys can never reform. They will use all dirty tricks such as using fake names to post propaganda.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Truth hurts.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I am not sure if any one is listening to you.

    1. I never said that muslim invaders did not destroy temples in India. They did and I say that smuch further up in this blog. All I am saying is that all invaders – even those who invaded internal kingdoms – destroy what ever they can in teritories they capture. That includes Hindu kings and invaders. Destruction of Buddhist and Jain temples are cited here as example.

    2. All citations I have made are actually written my eminent historians, most of whom are Hindu’s.

    3. It is you who steadfastly is refusing to accept that destruction is not restricted to islamic invaders, Hindus did that as well.

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    —— from central Asia different groups of people –went out to different directions–to Europe,to Persia and to India—- and all were identified as– ARYANS

    VEDIC PEOPLE [ ARYAN ] WERE FOLLOWED BY– TURKISH, MONGOLS, AFGANS etc.—————INVADED INDIA.

    These people were of violent in nature and they destroyed everything– which they did not like — AND THAT WAS THE PRACTICE.OF ALL INVADERS.

    BABAR was not the first person—– nor the last person — to invade INDIA.
    HE KILLED—DESTROYED —–BUT DID NOT PRACTICED———— TREACHERY.

    INVADERS THINK PERSONAL / GROUP INTEREST FIRST—RELIGION IS A DISTANT CONSIDERATION——– INVADERS ARE INVADERS—ONLY.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    So now will it be indians turn to “invade” Saudi arabia and loot the oil wealth and destroy makkah/madinah ?

    should it be done ?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Farid–good points.

    Ravi Reply:

    Agreed

    farid Reply:

    @GOPI THOMAS

    ——- first—enlist –register– –INDIA–in the list of INVADERS—then TRY.

    farid Reply:

    —- sorry———–in place of SAM——-GOPI THOMAS was typed erroneously.
    SORRY BROTHER GOPI.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I guess you are trying to justify demolistion by muslims by putting up excuses. The Jain, Buddhists and Hindus belonged to same country whereas muslims came from outside as invaders.

    You did not shed any tear on destruction of temples in deganga and that was enough to prove that you were a talibani muslim hiding behind hindu name.

    Truth hurts and I can see that in your pain.

    Your kind of people are the most dangerous types of terrorists who are educated but are cave-like in their outlook just like Faisal Shehzad. I am surprised why your kind are not in the crosshair of FBI.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    All of what you say sounds like it fully and comprehensively applies to you.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    I have seen how you reacted to images of Deganga.

    It is clear that your sympathies are with terrorists. Keep up this attitude and you will find yourself in some jail in few years just like your brother faisal shehzad.

    There is a saying “Kutton ko ghee hazam nahi hota” and that seems be the case with you.

  • ST

    Create Awareness

    Throughout the Babri Masjid saga the Muslim intelligentsia, scholars, and leaders did not adopt a pro-active approach in creating awareness about Muslim history. They remained content with the research provided by scholars of repute like Romila Thapar, etc.

    In direct contrast, the pro-temple movement utilized a large number of scholars to churn out tomes of their biased and grossly unscientific versions of history to support their claims. They carried this propaganda in the academia as well as in the public. Resultantly, we now have a situation where a significant number of people believe that Muslims were destroyers of temples and persecutors of Hindus.

    This propaganda succeeded in creating the impression that this conflict is essentially about latent Hindu grievances which have been nurtured for centuries. In contrast, Muslims have nothing to complaint about. This half-truth and grossly inaccurate version of history neglects the fact that the Muslims have equally suffered in India since time immemorial. There is documentary evidence to show that hundreds of mosques were destroyed by Hindu rulers, Sikh soldiers, Parsis, and foreign colonists. Hundreds more have been destroyed, desecrated, or occupied since 1947.

    Everyone associates Mahmood, Babur, and Aurangzeb with temple destruction. But no one seems to know that the Portuguese General Afonso De Albuquerque had destroyed scores of mosques in 1507. No one remembers that soldiers of the Kakatiya Dynasty indulged in destroying and desecrating mosques despite being in alliance with the Adil Shahis. No one remembers that in the thirteenth century the Parsis in the Cambay had instigated the Hindus to demolish the minaret of a mosque and burn it to ground. No one remembers that Sikh soldiers had occupied the Jame Masjid in the aftermath of 1857 and converted it into horse stables. Such examples abound but Muslims took no serious interest in uncovering and publicising these instances.

    Doing so would have taken the winds out of the sails of the Hindutva movement’s attempts to stoke fires based on artificially constructed historical memories.

    It is about time that Indian Muslims do their home work and correct the half-truth versions of history.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    “It is about time that Indian Muslims do their home work and correct the half-truth versions of history.”.

    Absolutely correct. Accept the fact that muslims destroyed temples and built mosques on those sites.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I will, just as soon as you accept that Hindus destroyed Buddhist and Jain temples to build Hindu temples over them.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Let us say that hindus and Budhhists (natives of India) faught each other but does that gives rights to muslims (outsiders) to attack both hindus and buddhists and destroy their temples.

    If you think this right then you should appreciate the right of US to bomb muslim countries as they keep fighting each other.

    The kind of arguement that you are raising is very popular on pakistan forum. You are not what you are trying to project.

    You are a hate filled Jehadi who is inventing excuses for muslim terrorists.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @ST, I agree Indian history is a minefield. Lets take the two communities you mention, Sikhs and Parsees. Sikhs took part AT THE BEHEST OF BRITISH and slaughtered all the muslim soldiers who had laid seige to the LUCKNOW RESIDENCY and all the WHITE INHABITANTS during the SEPOY MUTINY. Can hardly blame them, remember one of their GURU’S HEAD WAS SERVED ON A PLATTER TO AURANGZEB.
    Next the Parsis, Just ask yourself a simple question , WHY DID PARSIS HAD TO LEAVE PERSIA(IRAN). You will find the answer staring at you.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Shan , right. ST has it all upside down, who is he blaming for the Portugese atrocities?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Youn are totally off the base. The case is about teh land, and not about the so called mutuial distruction.

    And if you try to bring an equivalency of Muslim destructions to Hindu destructions, you will be on the losing side by a big margin.

    The detsruction of Indian civilization started from tiom Tinmur and Gazani and Gauri on – Somnath Tempe was razed not once, not twice, not thrice, not four time, not five times; but eight times by Muslim kings and invaders. If Advani started his rath yatra there, there is a reason….many in India say “never again”.

    Countless, in thousands, of Hindu temples were demolished by the invaders,a s well as the successor kings. Tipu Sultan of the south destroyed tempples and churches in kerala. and converted kauffers of Malabar into Muslims.

    “countless mosques were destroyed after independence” — Mr ST do you have any statistic on this? Hindus are not destroyers of places of worship; they ahve only welcomed other faiths. Yes, Babri was destroyed,a nd they should be punished. Do you know how many new mosqques have been constructed after independence? How is that possible if Hindus are hellbent on destroying..

    Romala Thapar did injustice to Muslims and to Indians .. that is adifferent issue. But the pages of history are stacked against Muslims in this regard. And what we see in PAkistan, even as of yesterday, is the expression by some people that they just not tolerate other places of worship — even if it is a muslim sect’s.. Yesterday’s destruction of a Sufi mosque in Karachi is a continuation of this intolerance.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This guy is fantasist.

    Hinduism – not unlike other religions – is expansionist. That is how it spread throughout south east Asia.

    In the process of its expansion it committed atrocities similar to those perpetrated by other religions.

    Finger pointing and focusing on any one religion is deeply rooted in prejudice. Elements of history are then selected and misrepresented in order to justify and reinforce this prejudice.

    Political opportunists, then take advantage and indulge in short term point scoring.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    complete garbage from a muslim dogs mouth!

    Ravi Reply:

    I think the only sustainable conclusion one can safely draw is that all communities/religions have indulged in destructions.

    Who did more tha other is a moot point.

    To say Buddhists/Jains/Sikhs are just forms of Hinduism is a great injustice to Buddhists/Jains?sikhs who see themsleves as distinctly different.

    Mutual respect is the only way to avoid and resolve differences.

    [Reply]

    DUDE Reply:

    FACT;

    islam is the most made up religion together with the other abrahamic religions!

    you we all have found out to be a muslim mullah twerp!

    islam is not a peaceful religion like dear mama and dada and your peado imam told you!

    blooody beardo

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    If all muslims in Pakistan were Hindu hating Taliban type extremists, then it would have been reasonable to expect them to have destroyed all remaining temples in Pakistan.

    But they didnt. See list below.

    Lets not equate the behaviour of Talibans with moderate muslims. They are more like our own Hindu Fundos.

    ———————–

    List of Hindu Temples still standing in Pakistan.

    Balochistan
    • Hinglaj, Hingol National Park

    Islamabad Capital Territory
    • Saidpur Temple, Saidpur, Islamabad

    Northwest Frontier
    • Shiva Temple – Mansehra
    • Nandi Mandir – Peshawar
    • Balmiki (Valmiki) Mandir – Peshawar
    • Shiv Mandir – Nowshera
    • Laxmi Narain Mandir – Mardan

    Punjab
    • Aditya Sun temple – Multan
    • Jagannath Temple – Sialkot
    • Katasraj temple, Katas Village – Chakwal
    • Krishna Temple, Ravi Road, Lahore
    • Old Temple – Sialkot (not used)
    • Sri Narasimha Temple – Multan
    • Suraj Kund Temple – Multan

    Sindh
    • Bhagnari Shiv Mandir, Kakri Ground – Karachi
    • Darya Lal Sankat Mochan Mandir (also called Jhoolay Lal Mandir), Custom House
    Karachi
    • Devi Mandir, Bombay Bazar – Karachi
    • Hanuman Mandir, Doli Khata – Karachi
    • Hanuman Mandir, Frere Road – Karachi
    • Hinglaj Mata Mandir, (also called Jagannath Akhra Mandir), Bhimpura – Karachi
    • Kali Mata Temple – Umerkot
    • Shiv Mandir – Umerkot
    • Krishna Mandir – Umerkot
    • Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Native Jetty – Karachi
    • Manhar Mandir Kathwari Mandir, Rancho Line – Karachi
    • Mata Mandir, Doli Khata – Karachi
    • Malir Mandir, Shah Faisal Colony – Karachi
    • Narsingh Mahadev Mandir, Risala – Karachi
    • Panjmukhi Mahraj Hanoman Mandir, Soldier Bazar – Karachi
    • Pamwal Das Shiv Mandir, Baghdadi, Saddar – Karachi
    • Purana Mandir, Saddar, – Karachi
    • Rat Nageshwar Mahadev Mandir, Clifton – Karachi
    • Ramchandra Mandir, Saddar – Karachi
    • Ramswamy Mandir, Ramswamy – Karachi
    • Sheetala Mata Mandir, Bhimpura, Karachi
    • Shiv Mandir, Islamia College, Karachi
    • Shri Laxmi Narayan Hanuman Mandir, Native Jetty – Karachi
    • Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, Muhammad Ali Jinnah Road – Karachi
    • Shri Punch Mukhi Hanuman Mandir, Garden East – Karachi
    • Shri Varun Dev Mandir, Manora, Karachi, Pakistan
    • Krishna Mandar kantio Tharparkar

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You must know that most of these temples are loosing their land to the fundoo encroachers supported by Jehadis.

    There used to be hundreds of cremation ground all over pakistan and today more than 90% have been occupied by masjids and madrasas.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    We are talking about the destroyed temples.
    (not the list of yet to be destroyed temples..) in pakistan..

    Please put a list of all destroyed temples..

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    i am not a fan of either the indian govt or its many media mouthpieces. i believe the indian govt is as bad as the pakistani one and these two are vying with each other to feed shit into the text books of their respective students. my own personal interaction with pakis has been most wonderful. whatever you have listed above might be true. but i just do not agree with you that hinduism destroyed budhism. budhism came into existence through the revolutionary and non-traditional ideas of a person. it started declining slowly once he left for his heavenly abode. maybe the successive budhist leaders weren’t as good as him or maybe they were really concentrating upon spreading it beyond the boundaries of the hindu land. successive emperors did support it like ashoka/the mauryas etc (am not very clearly remembering my history chapters) but one thing i know for sure. the change agent for sanatana dharma namely adi-sankaracharya initiated the revival of hinduism by going all around the then-country and meeting all the warrinng lords/kings etc and getting them to accept hinduism once again. and this was not done by force as he was a lone small peaceful brahmin boy from kerala who was able to convince by word and deed and not by the sword. there have been many theories of late, all propaganda material from christian missionaries and their paid hindu croonies which tells a new tale to create division amongst the various hindu sects so that they can lick the crumbs that the dog rejects.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @ravi, Not all muslims are hindu hating taliban loving jihadist in pakistan, but majority officers and rank and file in army is. The preponderance of the above type is found among Punjabis and Mohajirs, and definitely much less amongst Sindhis, balochis and incredible it may sound among Pathans.
    There are “LONE”guys trying to preserve these temples many of whom are in REMOTE areas perched up on the hills. Then again there is a LONE guy who had formed PAKISTAN RATIONALIST ASSOCIATION , but was given sniff of the gallows by the authorities , so just on that evidence you cannot conclude RATIONALITY IS THE CREED OF PAKISTAN , INFACT IT IS QUITE THE CONTRARY.Just refer to Musharaf’s recent statement , the country is going to dogs , doesn’t matter there is KASHMIR KASHMIR KASHMIR or in other words JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Shan @ravi

    Shan , right to the point. Ravi, u r right in the sense mutual respect is the only way to resolve differences. And, in that sense, based on evidence, I feel one side (Hindyus) has it much much more than the other side.

    And your statement “everybody did , who did more destruc:tion is a moot point” is acop-out and ingenuine statement. Forget what happened before independence– How many temples (Hindu, Jain, Sikh) were destroyed in Pakistan vs how many mosques were destroyed in india? More importantly, how many new mosques were built in India (I will say it runs in thousands) and how many new temples were built in Pakistan?

    I do not dispute that there are moderate, peace loving, willing to co -exist with others Muslims. But it looks like they are becoming a minority in Pakistan. And, it looks like, again based on evidence, we have a larger percentage of m oderate Msulims among the Muslims here. Let us hope it will remain like that and they will not follow thee behabviour of their Umma brothers in Pakistan.

    And Ravi, it is quite disingeneous and farce to equate Talibans and whatever right wing hindu extremists. In your urge to create equivalency, you make statements like all have destroyed, all have run over, may be some more than others. Let us say we accept all thta. How can you say the Hindu extremists (if there is one like that) are like Talibans – have they detsroyed mosques (except Babri), have they stoned women, habve they mutilated people, have they stopped women from getting education, have they destroyed historical structures, have they forced people their way of whatever, do they wander around with guns and weapons, do they collect protection money, do they cultivate gang, do they have segregatuon asto one group is God’s and the otehr is kauffer, do they cut the nose of beautiful girls because they did not wear the sh– over their head, .. Indian secularists love to equate Taliban s to RSS; they dont get that people are smarter and they know the difference. RSS or Saffron may have lots of problems and may be doing lot of bad things ; but please, do not say they are like Talibans.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    S Singh, this is a fair enough response.

    I will address some of the points you have raised.

    I am not a Pakistani, despite what Rajeev may have suggested, many a times, in this blog. I am a liberal Hindu and very proud of my heritage. I have no intention of defending Pakistani government, military, religious establishments or any other institutions.

    In another forum every point you make against the Pakistani society would have been welcomed by me, and you would have found me on your side.

    I despise Taliban and every thing they stand for, where I disagree with Hindu Fundo’s like Rjeev is what our reaction should be and how as a result of Taliban mis-deeds, we should look at Indian Muslims. I do not buy into this cheap argument that they are all the same. They patently are not.

    There are elements among our Hindu Fundo’s who perpetually try to OTHER the Indian Muslim community. This is what the Nazi’s did with German Jews, just prior to holocaust. The very same method is being employed by RSS/VHP and their supporters. The objective is to prepare the Hindu’s to view Indian Muslims as; an alien wedge, not one of us, but OTHERS. Once this happens then groundwork is prepared for genocide. The ultimate aim of Hindu Fundo’s.

    As far as destruction of religious establishments is concerned, I stand by the point I made, which is that throught the history of mankind, every power hungry megalomaniac has indulged in destruction and looting of religious establishments. The degree and ferocity may vary from time to time and community to community. Even Jawahar Lal Nehru in his books on history acknowledges that Hindu conquerors of south East Asia indulged in destruction of religious establishments.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Was Nehru a historian? He weaved some story and you consider that cast in stone. Do you believe his story about his rift with SC Bose in congress? He was one of the most power crazy politicians. His haste was the prime reason behind the partition. The day this Gandhi-Nehru Dynasty is buried, people will spit on this SOB Nehru.

    Not all muslims are bad as you have been trying to convey. The Sufis, Shias and Barelvis are rational people who are part of mainstream and they are victims of deobandis (you) just like us. You hear everyday how deobandis go on bombing mosques of shias, ahmediyas and barelvis everyday in pakistan. You are the one who belong to Nazi mindset. Actually you are showing sympathy for people (muslims) who openly display their hatred for Jews. This is modern day Nazism only practiced by muslims.

    You are lying when you say you despise taliban because each and every post of yours validates the position taken by taliban towards other non-muslims. You are a closet Jehadi just like Faisal Shehzad. You should be behind bar for inciting muslims to commit acts of terror. Your definition of secularism means pandering to hard-core muslims and ignore all other communities.

    How many times have you seen Hindu-Buddhist-Jain riots? NONE….so don’t try to divide peaceful people of India. Except for muslims every community in India including sikhs wants to live in peace.

    As a congressi you must have been part of 1984 sikh genocide. Do you even feel remorse for what you talibani minded congressis did to sikhs?

    S Singh Reply:

    RAvi

    Of course, we should not (and I am sure we are not — Immean a 90% plus majority of Indias majority community) view our fellow Indian Msulims as a Taliban brand. That surely is unfair.

    And there is no comparison between Hindu fundos and the crazy Muslims who are bombing everywhere. now the second generation pakistani muslims in US are bombing there. Same thing in UK.

    Why do you call RSS Hindu fundos? Have they destroyed mosques? Have they asked for banning Muslims from india? Have they asked them to leave India if they do not convert to hinduism? (You know there is nothing conversion to hinduism)..So, what are you talking about when you say wedge? Have they said they will not accept Abdul Kalam as teh president because he is a Muslim? So, what aspect of RSS do you think will create balkanization and killing like Hitlers time? Have they said, like Muslim holy book says, to kill the infidels (in this case Muslims??)y Do they have the concept of “infidels”, Dar-ul-Islam and Dar;ul-harb (or Hindu land and non-Hindu land)?

    I am sure there may be extremists in RSS rank. I will not equaate them to Talibans. Talibans have put the threshold so high; only medieval Muslim invader types can match that cruelty and non-sense. I just cannot imagine anything/anybody else (in peace time).

    Rajeev Reply:

    Frankly speaking I consider RSS as ideological harmeless Bafoons whereas Ravi’s tribe taliban is a class apart.

    DUDE Reply:

    hahaha ravi is not muslim . lol what you doing sleeping with the enemy?

    is that what it is hmmm you sleeping with the imam? does his beard arouse you lol

    little winky got chop yet?

  • http://- Rajeev

    Ravi,
    What is your stand on Sunnis killing Shia and destroying their mosques in pakistan and Iraq? Should US and India walk in and destroy both Sunni and Shia mosques & build churches and temples over them?

    You have been defending muslims right to destroy non-muslim places of worship if native communities fight amongst each other.

    As per your logic, US will be perfectly justified in Nuking Mecca.

    Lastly what do you think about Israel? Is it justifed in its fight against muslim terror? Let us test Nazi DNA in you.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This is beyond being silly.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    C’mon..Now it is silly..You have been saying this thing all along. Did you not say that hindus harrassed Buddhists? Now you are finding the same thing silly.

    What about your views on Israel? Let us see your little muslim Nazi arse.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes Hindus not only harrased Buddhists they even drove them out of India. Ask Buddhists.

    However, what I am not prepared to do is indulge in your immature, alomost juvinielle way of presenting your arguements.

    Now you want to challenege if JL Nehru is qualified to comment on this subject. This has been the pattern, I cite my sources and you instantly challenege their authenticity, calling them Pakistani or from foriegn ill eductaed historians.

    You are silly.

    Rajeev Reply:

    “Yes Hindus not only harrased Buddhists they even drove them out of India”.

    Azhar Hussain said the same words.

    Nehru was no historian but more of a storyteller. I don’t take his version of history seriously just like most of the Indians.

    I asked Buddhists and they told me that hardcore fundoo muslims ancestors of ravi, converted them to Islam using sword.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Now you don’t have answer, you are calling me silly. A talibani is calling others silly :)

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    I’d like to know your SILLY views on Israel.

    By the way your gem “Hindus drove Buddhist away” make you Azhar Hussain or his clone.

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    @Rajeev @ Ravi

    Jawaharlal Nehru and his fabian socialism screwed up India royally resulting in the “Hindu rate of growth” ridiculed all over the world. Had Rajaji and Pilo Mody and the Swatantra elks were given some hand, India would have achieved its current economic level 30 years ago.

    A good part of the present day Andhra Pradesh, including the current cyber capital of India, Hyderabad, would have been a third Pakistan if Nehru had his way. Well, Vallabhai Patel and his right hand man V P Menon acted when Nehru was, as usual, on his foreign trip, showcasing him while India and Indians were reeling under so many immense issues.
    Nehru did not want to annexe Nizam region, prefering a “Kashmir” model for Nizam country. How screwed up one can be? Was he trying to get into the good looks of the world, Indians be damned?

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajeev Ravi is Ravi just Rajeev is Rajeev, why can’t you people understand out 1 billion people there got be some among you who will dare to call spate a spate.

    S Singh Reply:

    @Sam

    Criticizing a whole group may not be the right way to go (and I do not have a solution).

    We cannot separate a Muslim vouching for Pakistan from a Hindu who contaminates food or country liquor for profit and kills many people. We cannot criticize a Muslim for cheering for the Pakistani cricket team when we have a Hindu corrupt engineer who let shoddy materials to be used in a construction, the building collapses, and people die and people lose their tax payer money. Lack of patriotism is abound, both among Muslims and Hindus.

    Sam Reply:

    @ravi
    you are very much needed in Saudi arabia to show your secular credentials and help the oppressed Christians, Shias, Hindus…

    They cannot even build a single place of worship…

    Can you please go there and tell the sunni muslims how secularism is so much better than islamic sunni theocracy…

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Rajeev, Sam

    When it suits you you, you point out to oppression of shias/ahmadis by wahabies. However in all other posts you attack muslims en masse.

    Maybe it would be better if you adopt one stand and stick to it.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    When I slam muslims, it is purely slamming Wahabi muslims.

    I never say a word againts non-wahabis.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I know muslim unity is important for you. It is OK for you if muslims kill muslims, muslims destroy each other’s mosque…

    I never consider Shia muslims to be part of hard-core Islamic movement. I have lived in lucknow and seen first hand difference between Shias and Sunni.

    In 1992, the sunnis in kanpur were buring down the city whereas Shias and hindus were holding peace march in lucknow.

    Sam Reply:

    >When it suits you you, you point out to oppression of shias/ahmadis by wahabies. However in all other posts you attack muslims en masse.

    Criticism should not be taken as an attack..
    I should have the right to criticize Islam and some acts of Muslims.

    That should also not stop me from pointing out Wahhabi led violence on Ahmadis, Hindus, Christians and sometimes on Shias (in pakistan, Saudi, Iraq..)

    It is not when it suits me..
    the facts could warrant criticism..

    For example, both Shias and sunnis believe in Blasphemy, apostasy, jizya, dhimmitude,

    so what is wrong in criticizing those aspects for all muslims ?

    DUDE Reply:

    pure made up fantasy by ravi………

    buddist were driven out by moguls facy! the ones who invaded persia and drove the remaining parsi/zoroastrians to india and converted the whole iranian nation and broke in to indiA………

    recently in 2000 ur brothers destroyed large buddha statues…………..no value for history or others religion!

    peace my a s. s

    [Reply]

  • http://bhagwan.tumblr.com Caitlin

    Nice words about the eternal cosmic law. Thanks for sharing. Be blessed!

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    ps vote for dude………….

    FOR NEXT KING / PRESIDENT / PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Please vote-
    Do you think Ravi is-
    1. Azhar Hussain
    2. Naveed Khan
    3. Sal

    Remember he claims that hindus drove buddhists away whereas history tells us muslim invaders converted them to islam using swords.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    None of the above. Please add one more in your list
    4. Arundhati Roy

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Here is the Ayodhya judgement in both Hindi and English.
    Many secularists have been crying hoarse that why did Tulsidas not mention demolition of Janambhoomi temple at Ayodhya.

    He did mention it in ‘Sri Tulsi Dohashatak’. Please read page 34 of PDF file in the link.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    link-
    http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJB-BM%20vol-04.pdf

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Binoy Hegde, Are you aware Nehru said”I will be the first BRITISH prime minister of India. The problem was he did not have any roots. Kashmiri, living in Allahabad, spent most of his childhood abroad, INCERDIBLY SEXUALLY UNFULFILLING MARRIAGE(because of kamala ’s TB). The worst was his father whom Nirad Choudhuri described as a “toady”. His fatherwas never a qualified lawyer like a barrister or something yet made all that money , god knows how.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    Shan,

    I did not know that;l but easily believable about a man who thought he is the God’s gift to the Indian masses.

    Talking about education — hehehe …I read somewhere Nehru was the last graduate in the Nehru paramapara.. Mrs Gandhi never graduated from coillege (did some micky mouse two years at (Santi Niketan); Rajeev Gandhi did not (he did a technician vcourse after HSC; nothing wrong with that and I am not demeaning that); and the crown prince never completed anything although he got into Harvard and Cambridge on “friends and family” basis.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rahul gandhi got into St.Stephen on sportsperson quota..His sports being “SHOOTING”..Now I know what shooting they were talking about..foot in mouth shooting..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Here is how Rahul Gandhi was heckled in Bihar. Really funny video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIv_rtFWLps

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Nehru was Britisher in brown skin.
    I’ll post link to BBC documentary on partition. There are few places where Nehru is seen walking with Gov. general and Edwina. Just look at his body language..He looks like a typical chamcha.

    I seriously fail to understand why he was adored so much by that generation. He screwed India on all fronts topping it with 1962 humiliation at the hands of china. This dynasty should have been buried for eternity with the defeat in 1962.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Resistance In Palestine against Israeli occupation
    Resistance in Iraq against USA occupation
    Resistance in Afgahnistan Against USA & NATO occupation

    Are you guys saying this is wrong?

    When you occupy then be ready for the consequences

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ravi,
    You are right.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Ravi,
    I couldn’t understand, what were you trying to derive by compilation of Budhist/Jain temples that were destroyed by Hindus in India and list of Hindu temples surviving in Pakistan today. Do you mean to say Pakistan is more secular than India, because people here have destroyed Babri Masjid? Has anyone calculated the number of Masjids in Delhi alone? If that list is bigger than Pakistan, does India become more secular than Pakistan?
    I suppose state being secular or not is shown by the way it treats its minorities. Do we Indians look Abdul Kalam or Tata with the lens of religion? If we don’t respect them because of their religion, then even if we have a million mosques including Babri Masjid, our country is not secular.

    ——
    “The Shaivite sect of the Lingayats was another mighty enemy of Jainas. Lingayats proceeded against Jainas extremely fanatically, damaged their properties and life, destroyed their temples or appropriated them for their purpose. It is said that Saint Ekantada-Ramayya had particularly excelled in the propagation of the new doctrine.”
    ——

    This is what happens, when we read about our local history written by outsiders. Do you know where lingayats are from? I know; Karnataka. If you want to find out about Jainism in Karnataka, can you please type “Sravanabelagola” in google? or this site:
    http://www.indiaprofile.com/religion-culture/jainisminkarnataka.htm
    Dharmasthala in Mangalore houses many Jain Bastis and Gomateshwara monolithic statue and is considered to be a holy place in Karnataka. Here, the temple houses a Shiva lingam, puja offered by Vaishnava priests and the temple complex governed by Jains.

    By saying all this, I am not claiming Hinduism is the most tolerant religion and others are not. Nor I like the idea of asking today’s Muslims to apologize for what Aurangzeb or Babar or their grandpa did. But I don’t understand this fascination to bulldoze our culture, in the enthusiasm of getting called “secular” or “liberal”.

    About Ram “Janmabhumi” : Yes, Ram’s character is more than 2500 years old. Nobody can prove his existence. So is Abraham and Moses who are worshiped by 3 major religions in world (Jews, Christians and Muslims). (Christ or Mohammad are fairly recent in terms of history of religions). But don’t Muslims believe Kaaba was built by Abraham? When 3 major religions of the world could believe in Abraham, without any historical evidence, why Hindus need to prove authenticity of Ram? Everything about any religion is faith.

    Lastly I do condemn Babri Masjid Demolition. But I can’t equate it to Bamiyan Buddhas. They in fact represented Afghan culture. Here, Babri Masjid represented oppression of our culture.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vinay,
    If you have read Azhar’s post before, you will see how similar Ravi’s post are to his.

    “Hindus Drove Buddhists away”…This is the gem that no Indian can forget.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Rajeev,

    I have replied to you earlier, about your comparison of Ravi with Azar. But as far as Arun Krishnamurthy (Where is he? I miss him), I would go by you.

    [Reply]

  • vasudev

    i am not even a north indian. and that makes me a non-aryan. i am a south indian. and that should make me vote for ravan. instead, somewhere in this blog i have batted for ram. simply because ram has millions of followers and one should respect their feelings. many follow blindly, without dissecting a story and its chief characters. personally i am not even sure whether ram/ravan/jesus/allah really existed. they all seem to be mythical characters to me. people follow what has been taught to them by their parents. some question the sense but many follow the non sense. and thus, based on non-senses we fight wars world over. i would like to be different. my perspective is: ramayan is a biased story written by an aryan for whom all dravidians were monkeys and dravidian kings were demons. that is my understanding of the story. i am a dravidian. and so should be my parents. and yet, they pray to ram. they think ravan was a demon. i do not endorse their view. see? different view points, same people. i am not claiming to be right. it is just a different aspect. i think the kerala guy ‘mahabali’ was a good dude. he was a demon though. a rakshasa who was tricked into oblivion by the so called hindu god. what was that chappies name? oh…vamana or something. claims to be an avatar of vishnu. now i would think that god should be equally fair to the aryan and the dravidian. but no! this god favoured his favorite aryan pimp..a chappie by name indra. a vain guy, womaniser and arrogant to the core but a perfect ***-kisser/boot licker/boot legger/ pimp all rolled into one. when such a guy is in a crisis those at the top who use his services regularly must oblige him/ humour him. shows gods aren’t any different from corporate india honchos. the *** kissers/pimps/boot leggers all get to be in the favoured list and get special treatment, whether they are efficient or not. and so poor noble king mahabali got the boot from this vishnu avatara called vamana. now is there any lesson to be learnt from that story? wonder who wrote it? likewise is there any learnings from ramayana or mahabharata except that you should use all tricks to get what you want in life (perjury and promiscuity are pardonable non-crimes)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sir,
    You seem to be high on DMK pot.

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    rajeev..this is the usual observation. enforcing ‘mental’ shackles i subscribe to none, as my young life philosophies were non-adherent. . please proceed with your views on the content. if my views are totally ‘passe’ you are free to say so.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    By the way ‘Vasudev’ is another name of dark complexioned ARYAN but low caste YADAV ‘KRISHNA’.

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    everything you read in ramayana, mahabharata and bhagwat geeta you would find are philosophies that rule the happening events of kali yuga. the acts, the expectations and the practices are the same, which we are witnessing now in modern times. so were the hindu books of theology the trials of the movies that were to follow? i aint a bigot. i only took the freedom to think and wonder.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    It will be wrong to say these are Hindu books; because there was no Hinduism when these were written.

    Vasudev is right in what these books talked about. These are the results of the thought process of our ancestors (including Indian Muslims’, however they do not want to admit, and some of them think they are Arabic, the “Arabic movement” has already started in Pakistan negating any connection of them to the Indus valley civilization).

    Ramayana is about what a just King should do, how he should rule for the Prajas. Seeta, although went along with her husband, was the first feminist and environmentalist. She had questions about the role of the wife, about hunting and destruction, about the need of preserving forests etc. Mahabharatha is also about right, wrong, sanatan dharma . That Ramayana was written by a hunter turned Brahmin (in those days one can learn and become a brahmin, it was not a system absed on birth), and Mahabharatha written by a fisherman turned Brahmin speak volumes about how enlightened were people five thousand and three thousand years ago.

    Coming to the secular education syllabus and content put out by NCERTS – do our children know that Valmiki was the first poet, Aadi Kavi in the world? That as far as we know “yad kraunch midhunam” was the first poem or poetic scream?

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    dear s. singh.. i agree with you on the ascension possibilites as those which existed in sanatana dharma were based entirely on deeds rather than on births. you are right about hinduism too (pardon my mistake). hinduism is a discovery of the britishers. i would say caste systems were fixated in modern british times because they found profit in it. however we seem to be accused of 5000 years of casteistic ‘patents’. i found arun shourie’s book ‘bending over backwards’ highly enlightening on this aspect.

  • Ashish

    @Ravi,
    instead of cut and paste, why don’t you just post the link to the material on the web?
    http://www.islamabadglobe.com/?p=1109

    Seriously, you believe everything that the Pakistani hate sites put out about Hindus/ Indians? Tchah!
    You had me fooled for a while; I really thought you have serious study of history under your belt.

    No longer. I shall ignore your rants from now on.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, well done , but some it is true however unpalatable.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    There is always some truth in propaganda. The propanga is 1% truth wrapped in 99% lies.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Oops! At the end, the reference of David Gilmartin and Bruce B. Lawrence (ed.), Beyond Hindu and Turk, University Press of Florida, 2000., turned out to be just http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/

    But what about those Wendy Doniger with the “authentic” page numbers? My head is still spinning.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay

    Your question was about Wendy or the specific page/book?

    Well, Wendy Domiger is an India/Hindu hater who finds a big audience in India itself among all those urban psuedo secularists. She comes from the Chicago school, the same place where the protagonists of Iraq war studied and worked together –the neoconservatives.

    Confounded and dumbfounded by the enormousity(?) – depth, width, age- of Indian philosophy, ancient literature, toweing temples etc – as a Jewish person she wants to bring it down because nothing can compare to Judaism. She is so focused on the sexual aspects of all Indian works, even when she talks about Ramayana, the only thing she finds worth mentioning is the sex life of Rama-Sita.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi
    I am actually not so dismissive of Wendy D; remember, unlike many of our celebrated top historians- she actually is a top class Sanskrit scholar.
    I respect anyone’s right to interpret history, mythology and oral and written traditions through analytical tools at their disposal; she is subject to peer review. She cops a fair share of criticism; some of it merited. Her interview with Outlook prompted a rejoinder if I recall and there are plenty of passionate pro and anti -Wendy voices in the internet.
    I would urge you to read Devdutt Patnaik’s piece on Wendy Doniger. It is a nuanced treatment, not so black and white. Here’s the link: http://devdutt.com/my-interview-with-wendy-doniger/

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ashish

    I just could not believe this site.. Oh man..

    The ususal anti-India (with the conclusion that India is a failed state!) rants are understandable..but their claim on civilization!!

    There is a sidebar on 7000 years old Pakistani civiliztation — that Egypt, China, Pakistan, and Iraq were the superpowers 5000 years ago..they also mention India was not existent at that time…

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Also, is this new “Brahmanical terror gripping India, Brahmanical killings of Jains and Budhists 1500 years ago, Brahmanical destruction of Budhist temples” line a new theme manufactured by our western brothers.. because TCN now is full of this theme. (with the conclusion that PFI is nothing compared to these Brahmanical terror of the past )

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    dear gopi..australia has a number of reasons to ward off ‘terror state’ status that indians are keen to merit it with, especially after those indian bashings. the recent digger activities in cwg does not portend well for them either and reinforces the belief that they are bashful. trust me..my indian friends in oz strongly defend their chosen land and pooh-pooh the media claims (which even i tend to discount as the media is known to create and escalate tensions instead of nullifying and diffusing them). i trust tcn is an australian news channel although i ain’t sure what is pfi…is it something to do with paganism? there are many indian channels strongly batting against ancient and modern hinduism and they thrive on the so-called secular hindus penchant for a good boy certificate from the firangs.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vasudev
    TCN is twocircles.net and Islamic website
    PFI is .. Popular Front of India (an Islamist group) that Gopi is particularly fond of :P

  • shan

    @ashish, I will be grateful if you read Jean dreze,( the begian goatee beard in kurta , prof in DSE), in today’s Hindustan Times (web edition).,remember all the spat , all the KHISTI that you used, till another blogger called you a loser. Now if you are man enough and have still circulating ANDROGENS and not reached male menopause(I see quite a few patient with this condition) you should come to this blog and apologise. It takes a big man to admit his faults and for once prove yourself not just another bangali kenkra(crabs for the non bengali readers).

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan
    when I am convinced that you understand plain English; far less Economics.. Jean Dreze is way above your puny intellect.. I shall engage you again.
    You read a lot; but draw random and erroneous conclusions; first read the basics; like Samuelson and pass a basic course before spewing malodorous horse manure from your mouth.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, First i think you meant “while “, though you have used the word when, that’s fine. I am not the kenkra to nit pick on “mangled grammar”.The last line truly brings out you in your full glory. Regarding Economics, I have an “outside interest” as i have in so many other subjects like Islamic history , Neurophysiology(not directly my subject), obsession with FRANK GEHRY (find out in the internet who he is), painting by the european masters, planning to visit National Gallery to see CANALETTO , I have seen rembrandt in Amsterdam , as well as Reubens in Antwerp cathedral, not to mention jaw dropping moment of seeing the painting of pope innocenti by raphael. When i visit a country it is the art and history that attracts me not so much nature , because that is plentiful in England. Like Cologne cathedral was something that stays with you.Just like in austria as much I was impressed by the cathedral and palaces I was equally interested in Austria most famous painter klimst.And if you are interested in cinema look no further, I have seen films of Gong Li , “raise the red lantern ” , “To Live” , Red Sorghum” and some more. Back to economics , I totally avoid econometrics , but i read general books on Economics , some samples . this from Keynes “General Theory…”page 85 last para “if the treasury were to fill old bottles with bank notes , bury them at suitable depths in disused mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish , and leave it to private enterprise on tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (right to do so being obtained by tendering…..) there need be no more unemployment……”.

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    @Vasudev:
    How did you come to conclusion that Rama was north Indian and Aryan and Ravana (for that matter, any Asuras) are south Indians.?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Apostasy law in pakistan..
    Leave Islam and you can be killed in pakistan..

    The bill proposed sentencing to death male apostates and imprisonment till penitence or death for female apostates. The government did not oppose the bill and sent it to the standing committee concerned. If passed, the bill will over-ride all other laws in force at present.

    http://www.thepersecution.org/50years/apostasybill.html

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Is islam a religion of peace ?

    http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/islam/#dm-col-a

    please watch the full debate..

    [Reply]

    vasudev Reply:

    dear vinay..whether ram was indo-aryan is a question that’s on. if i need to examine that closely i also need to find out about original dravidian and aryan spoken words. no doubt the blessed spoke sanskrit (aryan german or so they say). whether rune had any influence over sanatana i am not sure. but even ravan was a brahmin and so that should make him aryan, especially since he is the dad of sita. but we southies consider everything south of sahyadri as dravidian (includind sri lanka). maybe i am influenced by the location of awadh. but i seriously need to consider that even mathura and awadh were once dravidian territories until the dravidians were pushed into deep south. please enlighten the readers with your views. i ain’t partial to winning a debate. i can take my equal share of falls too.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vinay, Vasudev

    I may be off abse here; however, I think Aryan and Dravidian are another way the Westerners wanted to divide and rule. There were original inhabitants, more akin to our adivasis, now in Western Ghats, and eastern india and central india forest areas, and migrants from Europe and Central Asia. There is no proof of an “invasion”; over aperiod of time more and more migrants came because land was fertile and weather conducive. The darker shade of color of South Indians is weather induced . Hopefully some one else can enlighten on population movement, original african negroid movemente tc

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vasudev, Gopi Thomas, Guys , I remember watching a BBC documentary “around the world eighty places”, I think you can buy the DVD through Amazon. What it showed makes sense to the theory that “so called” Aryans probably came down from the steppes and then also most likely ARMENIA. I will tell you why. it showed in armenia or somewhere thereof if you are walking down the street suddenly a gush of fire emerges from the soil. Now we we know this is due to massive amount of natural gas in the subterranean plane. NOW THIS MUST HAVE KNOCKED THE BALLS OF THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS. Now extrapolate this to THE ARYAN RITUALS AND FIRE BEING CENTRE OF EVERYTHING, makes sense doesn’t it. Also the great Russian archeologist interviewed by Peter wood , said he found evidence of SOMRUS brewing in steppes, THIS SOMRUS IS APPARENTLY A STIMULANT FROM A PLANT WHICH PRODUCES EPHIDRINE.

    [Reply]

    Binoy Hegde Reply:

    @Shan@ VAsu @ Gopi

    Shan — SOMRUS makes sense.. Because the books say Devas (the guys under Indra) drank “Soma rasa”.. Aldous Huxley in the “Brave New World” talks about Soma intoxicant akin to LSD

  • Vinay

    @Vasudev
    I actually wanted to ask you do you believe Ravana is a Dravidian (not south Indian). Anyway, you took it in the right sense.

    @Gopi I would also like to know more about the so called Aryan/Dravid divide.

    As far as historians, Indus Valley and Vedic civilizations are not one and the same. Since Rigveda doesn’t mention about migration they expect one more (Indo-Saraswati) civilization parallel to Indus Valley near Hakra. But for any further study, Pakistan’s history starts after 700 AD !

    Part of this Saraswati civilization must have gone west to Iran and must have had a friction. About wars between “Sura”s and “Asura”s and who “Asura”s are; Zoroastrian mythology (6th century BC) from Iran gives the other side of the the picture. (Our “s” becomes “h” in old Iran). The fight in Zanda Avesta is between the “good” “Ahura Mazda” and his heavenly followers, the “asuras”, against the “evil” Angra Mainyu and the “daevas”. Avesta refers to the “daivas” the dark ones, the evil ones. (In other words dark means evil). For us Devas and Suras became heros, for them Asuras. (There is nothing north/south Indian or Arya/Dravida here). Proto Dravidian language (ta tha da dha na) do occur in Vedic sanskrit.

    As far as I know, no DNA evidences about north and south Indians belong to different races. Diversity in colour need not indicate the mixture of two races. Chinese who belong to same race also have variation in their colour. Also our hair colour and eye ball colour have always remained black unlike Europians who have varied shades (from south to north Europe) variation in body and also diverse hair and eyeballs. May be Aryans mixed with Iranians may give the answer for European’s varied shades.

    ——-About Mythologies:
    As far Ramayana: Our imagination of Ravana is a fair Brahmin and Rama (even Krishna) are dark skinned warriors. Why was Periyaar so angry when it was the win of dark skin warrior over fair skinned Brahmin?

    Also the character of Ravana was present in the earlier version of Ramayana or appended later has to be decided by historians. (Ramayana of Budhism (Dasharatha Jataka) does not mention Ravan). Historians also say, while description of Rama looks more authentic with clear description of places (Be it Ayodhya, Mithila or Sarayu river), after Seeta Apaharan, it takes imaginary route (with 10 headed Ravan, monkey kingdom and vague description of Lanka). Probably, they did not have much geographical knowledge about south of India then and must have explored later.

    As far as specific heros from south India: I don’t think it was either “Ram” or “Ravan” who were heros. It could be “Bali”. (For south Indians Diwali is “Bali Paadyami”). More than Ravan, Bali’s name is heard in so many occasions. Because of his popularity, he could have got into “purana”s which were written later (like how Buddha became Avtar of Vishnu). The character “Vaali” in Ramayana resembles “Bali”. He is the most powerful person in Ramayan, (who had easily defeated Ravan and “could have” easily defeated Ram, if he was not cheated). Inscriptions on stone found during Babri-Masjid demolition read, “the temple was dedicated to Vishnu, slayer of Bali and of the ten-headed one”. Was Bali more important than Ravan? Difficult to decode history from mythology.

    Bali’s name is heard in Indonasia, even among ancient Celtic tribes (who were spread in western Europe before roman empire). Stonehenge temple, built in about 2000 B.C. in UK resembles Shiv Linga (Indus Valley), its words has similarity with Sanskrit (Vedic/Aryan). This should imply the people who went there were mix of both Aryan and Indus Valley culture (or both culture were one and the same). People equate “Druids”, a priestly hierarchy among the ancient Celts of Britain to Dravidas. But I didn’t find any common word between Celtic and Dravidian languages.
    ———
    Just have a look at this Celtic God’s description:
    Belenus/Bel/Beli : The Celtic god of light and healing, “Bel” means “fair shining one”. He is a patron of sheep and cattle, Bel’s festival is “Beltane” (Fire of Bel), one of two main Celtic fire festivals. Beltane marks the beginning of Summer and the growing season. On this day, purifying fires were lit and cattle driven between them before being allowed out onto the open pastures.
    ————
    Doesn’t this festival look very familiar? Or should we consider it just as a coincidence (as agriculture was the main occupation at that age in any part of the world)? Dravidas may not be from any different race (culture looks very much the same), just that the language group must have developed later.

    Lastly : If Ram temple in Ayodhya was symbol of victory of Ram (A warrior), how is it different from Babri-Masjid which is also a symbol of victory? Just that, first one became part of our mythology and faith. Second one became part of history and facts.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Vinay, thank goodness for bloggers like you , otherwise who cares about Vir sanghvi, barkha , zia and what not.Now I have few observation to make. You may be mixing present day India with the Aryan india . At present I do not know if any genetic mapping have been done or not , even if it is same proves massive mixing of genes. BUT ANTHROPOLOGICALLY I thought there are people in south India who are AUSTROLOID , like the maori in newzealand and the aboriginals in australia.
    Next is mythology , your exposition is brilliant, but the later addition you refer to may be what is known as PROKHIPTO?inflexion,been layered upon by succesive ORAL RECITERS.
    Next is the linguistic similarity with europeans, this has been proven by russian philologist and by max mueller and it is now thought they all originate from the parent INDOEUROPEAN TREE OF LANGUAGE.trying to find similarity between stone henge and shiva linga is bit far fetched, I live in UK , recently somebody had suggested that it may not be that old and the whole thing is contrived to make it a tourist attraction.That Zooroastrians and Aryans probably hail from the same tribe , is borne out by several similarity including gods Indra, fascination with fire worship etc. I will be happy to be yet more enlightened by you.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Shan,
    I suppose what you meant in your previous post is “80 faiths”. I have watched it. I remember some of the rituals in Zoroastrian and also some other religion in Iraq (not Islam) are very identical to Hinduism. There was a Parsi wedding shown, with a thread going around the family members (Oh! I found, it is still there in BBC website) is exactly identical to a Brahmin wedding ritual. I also have heard of this theory which presumes Zoroastrians (Iranians) and Aryans are from the same tribe (after the friction, moving in opposite directions). I have already reasoned (in my earlier post), why I hesitate to accept this theory. Indian race (including north Indians), originating from a golden hair light eyed Iranian (/Aryans), has never displayed these features. I would rather buy the idea a civilization existed near Hakra river (Saraswati), when the river dried they split up (had fights) one decided to go north and west ways (Iran route) another went towards East and landed up in Indus Valley.

    About the theory of people in South India being Australoid: Australoid speaks of what happened 50, 60 thousands years ago. Here, we are considering about the civilization (settlements) about 5000 years ago. There are some individual tribes in South India (may be in north India as well) and Andaman who are nomadic (no settlements) in nature who are similar to the tribes in New Zealand or Australia. But a huge population (like South India) should have shown signs of
    settlement, which implies one more civilization (in south India) of the same age as Indus Valley. So far, no traces of existence of such civilization has been found. Indus is the only civilization we know of on this land.

    I am not aware of any evidence which indicates a struggle between Aryans and Indus people. The presumption must be when two tribes meet, there has to be a friction. But we need to be aware, Indus Valley was quite advanced to its age, a civil republic with no slavery practiced. It could have just welcomed and given shelter to these homeless nomadic people (as it has done, all through its history, be it a Zoroastrian or a Jew). Aryan’s Rigveda never indicates a fight of “Sura”s with the local (Indus) god Shiva. They only keep brooding about their broken partners (Sura V/s Asuras) like how Indian and Pakistani people fight in blogs sitting in US, UK. Throughout the history, Shiva (god of Indus Valley) remained intact where as Vishnu seems more like a collection of local heroes (be it Rama or Krishna or Buddha). (May be there was a need for poets to glorify (“godi_fy”) the local ruler for their survival. This same trend had been followed by poets like Kalidas. Kartika, son (kumar) of Shiv-Parvati in “Kumara Sambhava” (by Kalidas) actually seems to be Kumara Gupta).
    Aryan culture was also taken into consideration by taking their “fair gods” (Indra, Varun etc) as the subordinate Gods of these two (Shiva and Vishnu, who were dark) deities in all epics written.

    The above theory holds good, if there was no tiff between the two communities. It says, how one advanced civilization (Indus) (with town planning, navigation skill and trading knowledge) maturely lived in harmony with another community which had literacy knowledge.

    But even if there was a struggle (though there is no such indication in Vedas) and even if Aryans were considered as best of the best warriors, the sheer number of people in Indus Valley would have assimilated them (Aryans could have come only in small numbers, but Indus Valley had well built towns and cities). In recent history, Ghori came with a powerful army from Persia and Babar stayed in India with his army. But majority Hindu culture was not changed. (Forget about the brainwashing thing in these decades and stubbornness of the Muslim leaders. It is totally off the topic). Similarly Indus Valley Culture must have remained the same, (Shiva being worshiped from Indus Valley to Kasi to Rameswaram in Tamilnadu). (I suppose, British didn’t want Aryans to loose, as they were “fair”!).

    I can’t say much about Stone Henge’s age. But the structure: Have a look at these.
    http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/images/stonehenge.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stonehenge_plan.jpg (page from wiki)
    Indo-European languages: I just wanted to share this piece. The places like Folkestone (previously Folcanstan), Dovestone in UK derive their name from Celtic. In Celtic, “ton” means place. In Sanskrit, it becomes “Sthaan”
    place/position) (Sthaan -> toun -> ton). Bye the way, our “straight from Persian” brothers’ “Holy Land” unknowingly bears the same word. Who said, migration to Britain from Pakistan started only couple of decades ago? It started couple of thousand’s years back. They can confirm it by authentic Roman/Greek-god features of Rooney :-)

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @vinay, thanks , very illuminating. That shiva was the predominant god even in aryan times is borne out by the fact that insrciptions in GREEK have been found on excavation in afganistan , which extolls the virtue of shiva. We really do not know great deal about harappan and mohenjo daro , if it were a part of India , perhaps more research would have illuminated some undiscovered corner of history. Regarding Rooney , cant be Roman , he is too thick , perhaps his sexual antics may be Roman like , but generally he is celtic. Regarding pakistani immigration to uk two thousand years ago ., are you aware GYPSY people in Europe speak ROMANI which has apparently lot of similarity to punjabi.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    My comment on Rooney was circastic! Didn’t you find my smiley ?

    Vinay Reply:

    I mean “sarcastic” :-)

  • http://- Rajeev

    Please look at the aerial photo of temple mount site. The golden dome mosques looks so out of place. This information is for muslim fanatics who claim that temple mount never existed. How come walls exist surrounding the temple/mosque?

    http://www.templemount.org/

    [Reply]

  • anand

    folk ravi is a R S S stooge. i have gone through his posts, he is simply following the R S S doctrine of instigating moderate and real sanatani hindus into fanatics by cursing them and throwing half cooked historic lies as insults on them. i can see through this guys disguise, he is a STOOGE……..dont take him seriously , some time later he will be back with some other psuedonym. here i would take the oppurtunity to thank sh. mulayam sin yadav and his elk for doing what they did and finally ending up in collecting some momentum for likes of advani. i firmly believe had mulayam not been there, there never would have been ayodhya. thanks mulayam for getting rid of this insulting dome from the divine shri ram janam bhoomi.

    [Reply]

    Rahul Reply:

    Plz don’t make such personal comments on other members. React to their views instead of judging what they are.

    [Reply]

  • Rahul

    While I agree with you in what you have said and I am happy with the court decision too, I wonder somehow if “something for everyone” should be the way to deliver judgments! Also, I don’t know if courts really care for “sentiments”; otherwise Ram Setu in TN won’t be planned to be axed, and there would have been a national ban on cow-slaughter a long time back, right?

    I observed a loser’s stand which some have tried to keep – saying that the court has directed this verdict solely to care for the “sentiments” of Hindus. Does court or our govt really care for Hindus “sentiments”? Their life would be miserable the day they start doing that.

    I am happy that some out of the 3 judges came to conclusion that the Babri masjid was built by destroying a Hindu temple, and the land was indeed Ram’s birthplace and it’s not only a “belief”. And all of them accepted that the mosque was built over the ruins of a Hindu temple which I think is an easy guess to find who would have destroyed it. There could be a better way to settle the land dispute than giving a bit to all those who cry, but one temple more or one temple less was never the point. I believe the crux was to see if the Hindus’ claim over the land was just, and if the mosque was indeed made over the ruins of a Hindu temple. “Honor” is more important than “possession”. And the decision came out clear.

    If the Muslims always accepted the place to be Ram’s birthplace; if they accepted that the mosque was built by destroying Hindu temple; and yet requested to let the mosque be there for their belief sake; I am sure most of Hindus would have let them have the land. But keeping a confrontational demeaning attitude towards others and shouting “sentiments” when pushed to the walls won’t take anyone home.

    Anyways, I am happy with the judgment. As are majority of Indians. So now India will have one less reason to fight internally.

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    lie that mosque was built after demolishing temple was fabricated ,to grab mosque and its adjoining land.they also demolished 19 temples same day.burnt 14 muslim alive(mostly ricksha puller and fruitsellers)gougged the eyes of bjp vice president of area because he was muslim.
    that is why holy people of ayodhya have kicked them out.advani made hundreds of bangles for his wife after melting ram idols ,given to him by stupid ram bhakt.

    [Reply]

    bihar Reply:

    jhut bole kaua kate!

    Dear ram…..
    This is to make you understand that without evidence one cannot prove anything. The proof of remains of ancient temple has been found by the archeological society of India with carbon dating and it has been proven in court that beyond doubt there was a temple before babri masjj.
    all Muslims are liers!!!!!!!! like you
    you kept name of ram to disguise others that u r a Hindu so that others may trust your baseless propaganda..if you have any proof for what u say than write about it..too..many lies are spoken by muslims like you with fake names. Therefore we cannot trust muslims like you. Kindly keep your original name even if u speak lies .
    please go to following website . Here you will see pictures to dispose lies about muslims like you:
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/EdipYukselp3.htm

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/9.htm

    thanks

    [Reply]

  • http://none.cone bihar

    dear
    as a neutral person i read ur blog. secularist think Ram was mythical
    but Muhammad was real, however never try to explore the truth or put
    minds in research. secularists need proof for existence of ram 8,000
    years back? Hence due to lack of materials of that time secularists
    declare our ancestors as mythical.one question GENUINE to every
    secularist:

    Q: You very well know ur father and grand father ,their names, their
    birth place etc. ? BUT Do you know the names of your great grand
    fathers/mothers who lived 300/500 years back or may be 8,000years
    back? Is there any proof that your ancestor existed 300 yrs back ‘in
    so and so’ place? do you have any proof of their existence, their date
    and place of birth/monuments ?
    If your answer is no … than.. it means that there is no proof of their
    existence so they must be a myth. isn’t it ? will you agree that your
    ancestors were a myth just like ram ? in that case all your family are
    born out of prostitution bcz of lack of evidence of your mythical
    ancestry.

    see we Hindus remembered ram ‘generation after generations’ and
    although the materials of ancient time does not exist but names of
    those places and few monuments like sita ki rasoi, ravan fort in
    srilanka etc exist. we wrote books and history so that we do not
    forget ram. many monuments like ram temple in ayodhya were destroyed
    by Muslims so that we forget Ram .

    They tried their best but we did not forgot , they killed many of us
    and attacked many times but we still did not forgot Ram. Truth wins
    and we survived throughout history. balmiki wrote Ramayana and he was
    a person of ancient time. If ram and balmiki were not real than who
    wrote Ramayana and when? In Banars Hindu Temple, the ancient temple,
    has records of shri rama for 49 generations and their ‘gotra’ etc.
    Later when one of the decendent of ram lost war with another king we
    loose the thread of their history and gotra. But we find many proof of
    their existence till today. All ‘Raghu vamshi’ , ” surya vamshi “and
    “ishwaku vamshi” are decendents of ram.similarly all “balmiki samaj”
    people are decendents of balmiki ji. Sita ki rasoi in ayodhya is the
    kitchen of sitaji…historical name of places connected with ram are
    still there. The cave where ’sugreev and hanuman’ lived is still there
    in ‘kishkindha(south india: see google map)”. the birth place of sri
    hanuman is still there in “kishkindha”. Many proofs still exists .

    still some secularists say ram was a myth and need better proof for
    his existence. so my answer to them is: if you (secularists) don’t
    have proofs/names of your ancestors 800 years back than your ancestors
    are myth too. hence your family was born out of prostitution. Due to
    lack of such proofs you cannot have faith on your own ancestry and and
    GENUINENSS of your origin.

    long live India and Long live our Memory
    Thanks.
    (plz do reply by email bcz i may not see ur post regularly:
    drbhimkattel@gmail.com )

    [Reply]

  • http://none.cone bihar

    DEAR READERS
    THIS IS FOR EVERYONE, MUSLIMS AND NON MUSLIMS. AN EYE OPENING ARTICLE BY X-MUSLIM ALI SINHA. A MUST READ ARTICLE THAT WILL CHANGE LIVES AND OPINION……

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm

    REGARDS

    [Reply]

  • http://none.cone bihar

    dear mr zia haq

    why don’t you go to this website to open your eyes:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/9.htm

    dear, wake up now !… to see ground realities instead of fairy tales of peaceful islam.

    tahanks

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/dirgha.prasai Dirgha Raj Prasai

    Respected Editor,
    Nepal is in danger position. When the traitors-Congress, UML, Maoist declared republic and secularism, China is coming with Communism for its security. If monarchy is not in Nepal, India also convert as a Communist country gradually. It was the great mistake of Indian diplomats and Nepalese power hunger agent of RAW and CIA. I think that you have read the news of Indian Army’s meeting. The secret of
    getting is ahead is getting started.’ A two-day secret meeting was held between
    Indian ambassador Jayanta Prasad, former and current Indian army generals at Lucknow
    headquarters, the infamous anti-Nepalese Indian Prof. S.D Muni, former
    ambassador K.B Rajan and leaders with keen interest on developments in Nepal
    but the former Ambassador of Nepal and former Secretary of Indian Govt. Shayam
    Saran-the most biased and anti monarchist, was not invited there. In the
    meeting Indian army generals blamed some Indian intellectuals for being
    responsible for widespread anti-Indian sentiment in Nepal. At the conference they said-
    ‘Nepalese people feel that Indian intervention has played a role in deposing
    the monarchy, and declaring Nepal
    a secular nation.’ They were concerned that it was against the interest of harmonious
    Nepal-India relationship. They suggested in moving ahead with serious concern. Expressing
    concern that the instability would pose a threat to Indian security the army
    generals suggested that the Nepalese Royal institution could also be
    reinstated.

    But the traitors can’t realize the truth because the Maost leaders Prachanda and Baburam Bhattarai have double standard who are cheating India also. It was the open secret conspiracy of Indian side. It is a matter of grief, as a first Christian prime
    minister in Nepal, the
    technocrat Babauram Bhattarai is destroying Nepal. In the year of 2006 in Delhi, Bhattarai initiated
    12 point agreement that made Maoist, UML and Congress leaders and so on. Since
    then unbearable games like republic and secularism were begun in Nepal.
    In fact Baburam Bhattarai is guilty of acting against the state. Bhattarai is
    become criminal of ending the existence of Nepal on the direction of Indian
    intelligence, European countries and Christians. Being a catholic Christian, he
    wants Christianization of Nepal through the conflicts of ethnicity based
    federalism. Actually, no one traitor, except Baburam Bhattarai was in post of
    prime minister of Nepal.

    On the direction of Indian intelligence, scattered
    Madhesis leaders who are followers of India
    were gathered and 4 point agreement was made to be Dr. Bhattarai as a PM of Nepal. As he
    became prime minister just a day after 4 point agreement he initiated to
    incorporate 10000 Madeshis in Nepalese army, supported anti-national slogan
    ‘One Madhesh singe province’ and displaced national dress of Nepal. He decided
    to demolish the statue of Father of nation King Tribhuvan insulting him. King
    Tribhuvan has made great contribution in revolution of 2007 BS. He denied
    accepting national unity day and the birth occasion of the founder of big Nepal the great
    King Prithbinarayan Shah. He tried to implement AD instead of BS. He protected
    murderers, kidnappers and corrupts and incorporated in his cabinet. Actually
    Bhattarai obstructing formulation of constitution by CA pulled the country in
    drain just as newly born baby thrown in boiling water by a doctor.

    We Nepalese people
    should be aware against such anti-nationalist activities. His own party men are
    repeatedly saying that he is agent of Indian intelligence-RAW. Due to him Maoist
    party was spitted. Further he made dissolution of CA because of desire to
    continue his post of premiership with creating confusion. If he does not
    resign, on the basis of aforementioned facts he and his party’s
    Chairman-Prachanda should be punished by state. State means permanent organs of
    the nation like court, national army and Nepalese people. The Nepalese people no longer want the
    unconstitutional rule of these traitors- Maoists, Congress, UML, Madhesi. After
    the dead of CA, the constitutional provisions of 1990 constitution have been
    restored with monarchy automatically. So, to rescue this holy land from an
    imminent dark future all patriotic forces Nepalese monarchy and people, Nepal
    Army, the court and the chief organs of the state– must unite to commit
    themselves to save the pious nation.

    Email:dirgharajprasai@gmail.com

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/dirgha.prasai Dirgha Raj Prasai

    Dear Editor and Readers !
    Why USA- the democratic nation is involving to intervene Nepal? US Assistant Secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs Robert O. Blake Jr has exposed about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the Commission of Inquiry on The respected countries representatives should understand that Nepal is passing unconstitutionally after the experiment of CA. Then, why they compelled to pass the ordinance of–’Trust and Reconciliation Commission and Commission on Disappearances.’ which was forwarded by the government to the office of president by the government to the office of president on 28 August 2012. After the experiment of Constituent Assembly, the Interim Constitution and the PREZ and the head of the government the PM have already lost their existence. Now the president and PM have been exercising in futility in the name of so-called consensus. Is it not a naked intervention to the Nepalese Internal affairs? It is very shameful and regretting for all Nepalese people. It is a matter of grief that the democratic nations-the EU diplomats have directed exposed attacking to our internal affairs. And then it is very suspicious that secretly how had and have been involving these diplomats to destroy the Nepalese Hindu religious identities for Christianity with huge amount of money. So, we Nepalese people suggest them with requesting not do so according to the international diplomatic norms. It is not the good manner to the EU diplomats.
    They should understand thye international diplomatic norms.

    President Rambaran Yadav and PM
    Baburam Bhattarai have already lost their posts after the death of Constituent
    Assembly (CA). Their posts are not in existence. The dead interim constitution
    cannot secure the post of President, as well as Baburam’s post of PM. With the
    dissolution of the CA, the interim constitution was cremated. Down with persons
    willing to bargain off the country for power positions! So in a sense, Rambaran
    Yadav, who opened the gates of treason, is considered more fatal than the leader
    of treacherous acts–Baburam Bhattarai. So, this nonsense element should be
    removed immediately. Foreign powers especially-RAW, CIA and EU nations are
    investing their full energy to fulfill their selfish interests for
    establishment of Christianity in Nepal, and carry out the campaign
    of Free-Tibet. The republic setup is not in the interest of this country,
    instead it is fatal. We will honorably fight against such anti national
    injustice resonant in republic setup and secularism. So, all the organs of the
    state shall unite, and in accordance with the 1990 Constitution and in presence
    of the King, we shall strengthen this Hindu Kingdom.
    If not China will come with communism for its security. If Monarchy is in Nepal, China thinks its security. But in the name of republic, gradually, China comes with communism, then not only Nepal India also coverts as a anarchist-Communist nation in South Asia. So, the safe the democratic sense in this Zone, Monarchical democratic system should be maintain in Nepal for the sake of Nepal, India as well as China. It is the duty of all Nepalese, whether in political parties or outside, Nepal
    Army, and even the nationalists in the Maoists’ party to save this
    nation.
    Please, send me comment with arguments.

    Thank you.
    Political Analyst-Nepal
    Dirgha Raj Prasai
    Kathmandu, Nepal
    Email:dirgharajprasai@gmail.com

    [Reply]

  • Plumbline

    2 Corinthians 5:17-18……….
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation

    [Reply]

  • JB

    Pushing the hindu terror propaganda? We all know that’s a myth but I guess you’re oiling the Congress brainwash machine. Equating a few disgruntled hindus on a killing spree to a terror network’s like calling Taliban doe-eyed peaceniks since they offered recently to negotiate

    [Reply]

  • Sehar

    Very nice article Mr. Chauhan…u r absolutely right…our politicians will not pay attention unless animals are given right to vote them in power..

    [Reply]