Five tactics to handle the Ayodhya verdict

Your number five point is Classic Zia, kuttar , jihadist position. No there should not or need not be a WIN/LOOSE SITUATION , IT COULD BE WIN/WIN POSITION. judges are not stupid people. Here is one option which I described in another of your colleagues blog,
THE IDEAL SOLUTION IF ANYBODY IS READING
Turn the place into a MULTI FAITH WORSHIP PLACE. This will force all the communities to meet together and leave their bigotry behind. It will be a single structure with several different areas for different religions, INCLUDING ONE FOR THE INDIAN RATIONALIST ORGANISATION, who will point out PORKYS OF ALL RELIGION by the way of posters etc. The architecture has to be stunning, something akin to a Taj Mahal of 21st century. I can think of only one person who can handle this job. he is FRANK GEHRY. This architecture itself will attract people all over the world and will STAMP THE SECULAR CHARACTER OF INDIA FOR ONCE AND ALL.
Richard Dawkins has three days ago described CATHOLICISM as the SECOND MOST VILEST RELIGION. He didn’t say whom he thought should have the crowning glory. Having read his works I think It is jewish , for that that is the mother of all middle eastern creed(that is a better word than religion). In fact I think Islam is arabic version of Torah , it would appear pilferage, that is why a smart move to subsume all of them into a continuum, infact a lot of it is so similar to the thought of greeks, like embryogenesis as a result of blood clot(menstrual blood ) and sperm coming together, lot of it pure ignorance of the time like earth being flat , like sun revolving ata great pace as moon, but for allah they dont collide.

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shan Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm

Sorry typo, for pilferage read plagiarism, though actually both is valid

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Many cases one can see, comment writers have more indepth knowledge than the porfessional writers. Shan´s point is the best, win win.
Multifaith worship place at Ayodhya….
The best solution, and a chapter in the evolution of second biggest religion. These are the people, who lack something in the process of sharing and cohabitating the planet earth.

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Your point 1-3 are same,language is changed but have only one meaning.
4th Point:I have not heard any hindu party to this dispute saying this any where.And FYI dispute in court is a property dispute.

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On 18th Sep,2010 in the Hindustan Times,I read the issues that have been framed for determination by the Lucknow Bench of the Allahabad High Court to decide the suit property at Ayodhya belongs to Babri Masjid or Ram Temple.The issues appear to have been framed wrongly The first issue is whether there was a temple before 1536 A.D.,when Emperor Babar built mosque upon it.Agreed,that a suit against the trustee of religious endowment has no precribed limitation period but the cause of action arose on 1538 A.D. as per the allegation of the Hindu party but then many of Babur’s descendents had Hindu mothers and wives,who revered Ram Chander ji as their deity as much as do Hindus at present,then why there was no petition then since last so many centuries when those descendants ,particularly, Akbar,were in power and their wives and mothers were Hindus and influenced the emperors.Why is asked now to decide if there was a temple at the site four hundred years ago and why not within the period when it was possible to have traces or evidence of the same.Are the courts more secular now than those till 1947.There was no Hindu who equally revered Ram ji then ?Did not the Hindu party adopt illegal methods to come into possession of the suit property? Excavation was done since there are no documentary evidences in the archives that there exsited a Mandir of one of the tpomost deity of the Hindus.Thus,the framed issue appears wrong.Then the second issue if the suit of Sunni Wakf Board filed 11 years later than the suit filed by Hindu party for injunction to permit worship of the idols placed inside the disputed property is time-barred appears wrong since on one hand a suit in whic a party alleging the cause of action took place 400 hundred years ago its suit is admitted, the suit of the Muslim party in possession since 400 years ago and disposseed by irregularities of the State that suit is to be detrmined is time-barred or not appears wrong isue for determination. The third issue whetherthe Muslims perfected their title obtained by adverse possession too aaperas wrong for the same reasons as given for the former two issues framed.
Under order 14 rule 5 of the Code of Civil Procedure court have powers ,before pronouncing judgment,to amend or add issues or strike out issues that appear wrong. I hope the Lucknow Bench amend and strike out issues frame that appear wrong
One cannot take additional grounds in appeal to Supreme Court without its permission.

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Barry O'Toole Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 3:35 am

@Naved Yar Khan: Regardless of what the actual issue is, the politicians and the extremist on both sides (esp. the Parivar) has ensured that this becomes a hot button. BJP has milked it dry for the last couple of decades.

This is not a whole lot different than the Koran burning threat by a nobody in Florida, USA. Luckily for the United States, all politicians and prominent personalities of al faiths have condemned this. India may not be so lucky.

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KD Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:22 am

Good point Barry.

Unfortunately, this is just a manifestation of the fact that Americans have learnt to ignore religion in the face of capitalism serving their visceral needs much better !

If the people are not passionate about their religious beliefs, no politician will care to make an issue out of such problems. This, however, is good and bad for society in my view !

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YD Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 5:14 am

When Babur conquered he built on the land which belonged to Hindus, did he get persmission ? Second thing is that Hindus were defeated lot and had no voice. Akbar was not that generous as is projected. The real name of Babri Masjid was babri-janamsthan or Babri-Sita rasoi, why ? Chabootra in front of moqsue was not distroyed, why, to rub the defeat in Hindus ? But Hindus must not protest on or after 24 Sept ruling, it is only about title not about temple or mosque.

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Sunil Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 6:29 am

We are not fooled by you at all. All you want to do is sanatise the history to suite your islamic ends.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 7:01 am

There can be three solutions-
1. Land given to muslims
Action: Build a mosque very similar to Babri, keep it ugly as it was in 1992, put a Ram lalla idol in it, unlock it and let hindus worship there thus maintaining pre-1992 condition.

2. Land given to Hindus
Action: Let hindus build a temple but keep VHP and other org. out of it.

3. Land to be shared between Hindus and muslims
Action: Let this land be divided between Hindus and Muslims (2/3 and 1/3 as per population of sub-continent) and let them build the temple and mosque keeping VHP and Babri action committee out.

When this is done, we should ask pakistan and bangladesh to restore hundreds of temple that were demolished by peaceful people after the babri demolition.

Lastly Zia, it is not Babri dispute, it is called Ramjanambhoomi-Babri dispute. You are such a fundoo, I feel like puking.

Thank god you did not come to US.

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Bhupinder Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 7:34 am

How about building something that is acceptable to both religions?
A Peace Garden that reflects both religions. Peace is the only word that would unite Hindus and Muslims.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

How about building Sulabh Showchalya? Hindus deserve toilet at the believed birth place of Rama.

I wish you could suggest something very similar for holy places of other faiths.

SG Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 8:29 am

Very well said, Rajeev.

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SG Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 8:33 am

Well said, Rajeev.

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Syed Silas Spear Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 10:13 am

Rajeev, you have some of the best suggestions especially the number three but don’t get too mad with Zia, he may come and clip you, you know where. But I think before the suggestion number three is done we should ask Pakistan and Bangladesh to restore the Hindu Temples and shrines that were demolished in the aftermath of Babari Mosque demolition. After they have rebuilt the Hindu places of worship in Pakistan and bangladesh then only we should proceed with your #3 suggestion.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:43 pm

WHY NOT ASK ALL MUSLIMSS TO FVUCK OFF TO ARABIA …SO THAT THE INDIAN SUB CONTINENT CAN DESTROY ALL MOSQUES THAT WERE BUILT ON TOP OF HINDU TEMPLES AND THAT WAY THE REAL PEOPLE OF INDIA CAN HAVE THEIR FORGOTTEN TEMPLES REBUILT……………..

1000S OF THEM IF I MAY RECALL! DESTROYED BY MUSLIM INVADERS…..

I FEEL SORRY FOR THE HINDUS WHO HAD TO CONVERT BY FORCE AND THE WOMEN WHO BECAME SLAVES OF MUSLIM MASTERS!

DEGENERATES!

Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 7:06 am

@Naved

You are portraying impossibilities as potential actuals. Babur invaded India. In that process many places of worship were demolished.. Humayun had a short life, Akbar,as far as we know, did not raze any places of worship. Shah Jahan and Aurangazeb did. Aurangazeb also instituted tax on non-believers.

So, it is nonsense that a subjugated and frightened people will ask for or revolt against Babur’s barbaric actions. Your argument that there was no temple, for if there were a temple, the Hindus (either the ones forcefully taken into the Isamic world or outside) would have requested Babur or his desendents and they would “revert” back to the old structure, is far fetched..

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Syed Silas Spear Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 10:03 am

First let us find out if Ram really existed. According to Hindu scriptures Ram was born in Treta Yuga. One yuga is 300,000, 000 years long so Ram was born 900,000,000 years ago. There are no archeological remains of any walled houses or walled cities older than about six thousand years. If ram was born even in historic times then there are no remains of any palace of Raja dasrath in Ayodhya. There should be four palaces as Ram’s father had four wives but there is no ruin, no sign of any palace or even a big house. Raja Dasrath must have had ministers and other high officials who must have had big palace like houses but nowhere in Ayodhya there are any remains of any such structures. There are ruins of a palace of Ram’s maternal grandfather in Haryana, it is believed by the local Hindus that Ram was born there. Personally it does not matter to me if the Mosque is rebuilt or a temple is built at the spot of where Babari Mosque. We have too mant mosques and too many temples. We need more schools, colleges and hospitals. We can worship Ramallah anywhere if we have found Him/Her in our hearts. Kis bhes mein Narayan mil jayain!

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Rajesh Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 10:42 am

Dear Friend if all the people wil strat the finding the fact of their belief, then believe me no one wil believe in any religion other then Hinduism as all the religion’s basic knowledge and foundations are from the Vedas which cannot be argued. Some modification to create a religion and just to take the complete credit that he is the createor of a paraticula religion is absolutely absurd. Threre may not be Ram but the way Ram lived is what the writer of the Epic wanted to convey the comming generation. So instead of going under the shelter of any other relgion it would be better for all of us to think wisely and take a decission and avoid any type of arguement on this mater. Leave the habit of praising your own belief and criticising others belief. The consequesnes wil be very destrucive.

Ramesh Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 11:18 am

By the same token, there is no need for a masjid unless you can prove that mohammad really existed, since islam is basically mohammad’s cult. Where is the archeological evidence that a while horse stood atop mount hira and then flew off to jannat with mohammad on its back?

Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 10:23 pm

Can you prove that Mohammad really existed? Is there any proof of hazrat Adam or Musa? No…
Is there any proof that Kaaba was built by Hazrat ???? or was it a pagan temple occupied by peaceful mohammad?

When muslims keep saying..”your religion is yours..mine is mine” why is it that all the original inhabitants of Mecca were forced to accept Islam?

I guess you understand that faith doesn’t need proof…The hindu religion can survive without Rama, Krishna etc. but can Islam survive without Mohammad?

By the way Deepak Chopra is joing the ranks of communal hindus…Wait for his book.

Amir Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 7:56 am

@Syed Silas Spear Reply

When you can’t question your faith, then you have no right what so ever to question others faith. See now they are question your faith is that what you wanted? Faith is faith, that’s why its called faith not reality.
People like you will harm islam more than do any good. I’m sure with the comments like your, you made few more people hate islam now.

Go and read the history and how pr Mohammad lived. If that’s going to be too hard for you then read how sufi saits of Indian sub contient lived.

Rahmath Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 11:58 am

@ rajeev.

no proof on abraham and musa i guess, but definitly proof on muhammed is available.though as someone , i beleive you , pointed out there is no proof that muhammed flew in a horse, archology and history cannot give a proof for that (it may be an out of body experience if you beleive in those things)but muhammed existed, HE is not ttttthaaaaaaaaaaat ancient you know.

Bharath Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:59 am

@Naveed Khan
I think the archaeological survey of India have found evidence that there was a temple and at present the ram temple is partially unearthed. I think that given the evidence of barbaric events that took place in India in the dark age, we should try to bring back light to our lives by building only the TEMPLE and nonthing else. Then, all the penal codes will fall into their place and we will build a stronger nation.

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kamini Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

Zia Hoq should learn one thing practice first than preach. History is full of Islam’s crime. demolishing the Hindu temples has been one of them if Muslims wants justice then they must understand the gravity of the issue of the Ram Temple. Ayodhya was not Muslim place and Babri masjid is reminder of brutality of Babar. It was not used for prayer for many years. If you want to live in glorius India that had attracted many invaders we must reclaim and rebuild Hindu

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Sub’analla’. I totally agree.

Regardless of his rant, Mr. Shan does make some sense to suggest an interfaith center to reflect a secular India.

Even if it is a win-win situation, as Mr.Shan suggests, the politicians and/or extremists on either side will find a way to make it a win-lose, and both sides will claim that they ‘lost’. So, your #5 is the most important of all.

What else do you expect from Mr. Dawkins; he is an atheist.

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shan Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

@ O’toole, Regardless of your christian name , your surname says it all about your reaction to Prof dawkins. Your are Irish , thus catholic, thus the skin burn with Prof Dawkins comment on catholic religion. Please reflect on all those young children buggered(sodomised) by all your priest THEN INCREDIBLY BEATIFIED, NOT SURPRISING THIS IS THE SAME RELIGION WHICH HAD AS ITS CENTRAL DOGMA sun revolves round the sun, and think about poor gallelio for suggesting otherwise. I had the priviledge to see raphael’s painting of Pope Innocenti in National gallery in London . It was the same experience as looking at Taj mahal, simply awestruck. It literally gives you the feeling of coming face to face with Hannibal Lector(beleive me it has to be seen to be beleived)
Also I was fortunate to visit Slazburg cathedral. Incredible rows and rows of confession boxes. Your holiness I have fornicated my step daughter , no problem , pay to chuch and confess all is forgotten, go back and do it again, dont forget the payment.Also saw the TORTURE CHAMBER high up in bishop’s lodging. It was quite a climb but was worth the effort. You woudn’t beleive a dark place full of shackles and nasty looking torture instruments. Still Dawkings wrong.,

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God is not Hindu or Muslim.God is God.Just like the sun is the sun.It is not Indian Sun or American Sun.God is transendental.Above all material designations.
If I were a muslim.I would never have let this be decided by a court of law.Ayodhya is where Lord Sri Rama appeared.The masjid was built after breaking down the Sri Rama mandir.There cannot be anything there that does not impel our consciousness towards Lord Sri Rama.So I would go from door to door of my muslim bretheren and beg for any contribution and construct a magnificent Sri Rama mandir and offer it as a gift to my Hindu brothers.This would go a long way to pacify the Hindus whose temples and deities,thousands of them, have been destroyed and desecrated by the muslims.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:31 pm

They destroyed 1000s of temples!

they think their religion is of peace! complete rubbish! thse muslims are hypocrites!
they destroyed 1000s of temples and built their stupid peado mosques on shivas lings and now they complain about a mosque that was rightfully destroyed on ramas land…………

where was the consensus for when babri destroyed the hindu temple?
how can ppl revolt when they are invaded n taken by force and forcefully converted to lower islamness?

islam is evil!

all non abrahamic religions of india wake up! get islam out!

these stupid muslims on here complaining and tryin to justify their innocence and victimness in this! complete garbage! they forget how 1000s of hindu and buddist place of worship was destroyed to opese their mosques!

babri was not peace he was dictator!

islam should never have been allowed on the borders of india!

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Let all religious matters be decided by Indian courts in that case. Please disband the muslim law board and let the judiciary decide on legality of special laws made for various religions.

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Manish Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 5:49 am

The whole issue has been streched too far. Before jumping the gun, remember the following points:
1. Indian sub-continent has been land of Hindu’s.
2. Any other religion has come much latter and through Mougal warriors and Travellers from the west, which mean either forcibly imposed or influenced some.
3. No religion has any basis to anything in the holiest of the Hindu places like Kashi, Mathura and Ayodhya, just like any claims by any religion other than christianity in Vetican and Muslims in Mecca would be fradulant
4. There cannot be a legal recourse to faith. Can you show/ rpove the exact spot where Jesus or Mohhamad were born? Similarly, Ramayana cannot be rewritten by saying Rama was born somewhere else and not in Ayodhya.

This whole situation just shows Hindu’s are cowards and the apeasment policy has gone too far, so much so, that calling yourself a Hindu has become non secular!

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:37 pm

AGREED!

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Sridutt Shukla Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

Totally agreed!!!!!!
Please wake up and wake up all the temples which are destroyed.

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Sunil Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 6:27 am

When it suites the muslims then they want secular democracy and the law, when it does not they want Islam. Case in point is Kashmir and also partition of India. My Eastern European friend from Serbia also pointed to the same pattern.

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veera Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 6:59 am

Why there should be a wakf board ,when HREB has no relevance for the GOVT. Beyond the five tips the best solution is to Muslims honourably go out of the case and give way for a temple for ramlala

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This land should not go to any Muslim or Hindu religion groups, instead it should be given to a NGO who should build a hospital that can serve all poor people of all religion, and in that hospital
they should have different prayer places of all religion.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:33 pm

you islamic fu ck can piss off!

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Khan Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 12:01 am

Mr. Dude first of all u just Shut u r mouth.& before open u r mouth about Islam u have to know about yours how much a stupid & devil of Islam is u.You dont have any right to talk anything bad about any religion. As like we are waiting for justice you also wait otherwise pls shutup.

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sanjeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:11 pm

give mecca to ngo’s

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KD Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:20 am

These noble thoughts are great and deserve an oscar or a noble peace prize. But you cannot build a hospital in place of the Gaza ‘wall’ and even if you did, those who are religious will still worship that location.

The last thing you want to see is a hospital with ram lalla and mosque on the ground floor !

Actually, now that I think of it, it could work – if the issue isnt resolved we will definitely need a hospital at that place too !

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It is a very touchy issue. The court verdict would favor one party and the other party would feel defeated. The government should use different tactics that appease both Muslims and Hindus. A peace garden should be built at this site where people of all faiths could pray. Canadian government has built such building next to the gaveyard where soldiers killed in the middle east are buried. India is heading for some kind of chaos once the court verdict is announced. The government should take charge before things go out of hand.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:34 pm

daft foool! you think when the islamic invaders came to india and destroyed 1000s of temples, you think they worried about what the poor old hindu buddist thought? you shoul djust p iss off to arabia !

weak indianS!

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WHY NOT MUSLIMS AND HINDUS CONSTRUCT A

“WORLD CLASS UNIVERSITY OR SCHOOL AT THIS SITE,SO THAT CHILDREN FROM ALL THE COMMUNITY GETS BENEFITTED BY THIS ”

SCHOOL IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN RELIGIOUS PLACE.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:36 pm

YOU MISS THE POINT!

TYPICAL WEAK INDIAN JUST LIKE YOUR ANCESTORS WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAm!

INFACT I BET YOUR ANCESTORS WERE THE CORRUPT HINDUS WHO GAVE WAY TO ISLAM IN INDIA!

BEND OVER BACKWARD TWAT!

WAKE UP 1000S OF HINDU TEMPLES WERE DESTROYED BY ISLAMIC INVADERS MOGULS…………WHERE IS THE APOLOGY! WHERE IS THE HAND OVER ???????

FOOOL

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Khan Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 12:04 am

what is the use of it.nobody there gets a good education the same incidents will arise again .Firstly there was a Masjid lets construct the masjid u also cooperate to the justice.

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Here is my suggestion regarding he use of the land- let the land be made free of any religious constructions and let the government build an orphanage at the site to care for the orphans of communal violences in India.(To prevent violent reaction to the upcoming verdict, arrst all RSS and its hundred of senas and dals’ activistis in advance. Also, arrest the activists of jihadist organiztion. Those who take trishul in he name sof god/s and those who lead jihads in the name of religion should be bannished from India). No god (if there is any) is going to live in such a place which caused the death of so many people.

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MS Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 6:33 am

what is the problem in building a tample and mosque side by side.
Include the portions where ASI discovered ancient ruins as part of the temple
and add additional area to it to secure a large enough campus for a grand
Ram temple. Use the remaining portion along with additional area for the mosque.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:39 pm

YOU ARE A DICK!

WHY NOT DESTROY ALL THE MOSQUES IN INDIA AND REBUILD ALL THE TEMPLES THAT ISLAM DESTROYED!

FVUKING DUMB INDIAN

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There are Billions of people who know of the Mosque existed there. They are all witness to it.

Is there a witness to seeing the Ram Temple there?

Hindus being 67% of India, should forgo and claims to this property and turn it over to Muslims to build a grand Mosque.

The real purpose of desecration and demolition of Babri Mosque is to humiliate Muslims, to show them who is the Master in the Hindu Land. It has nothing to to do with Ram Janambhoomi. It is a concocted story. This Chasm would never be bridged if a Mosque is not built there. Babri Mosque humiliation has left Indian Muslims vulnerable and weak.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

You are wrong hindus are just 6.7% of the population. They should give this land to muslims and commit suicide by jumping in bay of bengal..and all secular hindus can jump into arabian sea.

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DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:38 pm

YO NAVEED GO **** OFF TO ARABIA YOU FVCKING MUSLIM!

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Vinay Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:47 pm

“There are Billions of people who know of the Mosque existed there. They are all witness to it. Is there a witness to seeing the Ram Temple there?”

Yes, we were existing 20 years ago, so we have seen the Masjid. We were not born 1000 years ago, so we didn’t see Ram Mandir, ..So..?

Have you heard of something called “faith”?

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hi,
RamJanmabooni
Krishnajanmaboomi
Jesusalam
Newyork Griund Zero

all places, Muslims claim their rights and fight.

Why not have temple/ Church @ Mecca/Media..Just think.. will there be any court / verdit?

wake up guys..This is repeating history.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

No. The Islam is the only true religion, muslims are most tolerant and peaceful people..start chanting this 1004 times a day. You will attain hightest form of secular Enlightenment.

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Zia Haq’s central proposition is:
There is need “to remove the Ayodhya-Babri complex from the realm of politics and its historical context and relocate it to the domain of law.” There are two problems here. One, to aim at taking an issue out of politics (or economics) is wishful thinking on the part of an escapist who refuses to confront reality. Aim at taking it out of bad politics. Secondly, what is so great about the domain of law in isolation of society?
My suggestion since early 1993 has been to promote the idea of Ram Rahim Vatika at the disputed site. ‘Ram’ in this is both Raja Ram of Tulsi Das and the name of god-head as in Kabir. ‘Rahim’ similarly refers to Rahim Khankhana as also another name for the god-head. The thematic architecture of the vatika will have to be around our heritage of social cohesion as reflected in Bhakti and Sufi poetry and music.

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When Islam spread everywhere after the death of Mohammad, they did not make people follow their path by persuation or with the option of a better religion.They did it by force, by sword and by killings.Where ever Muslim invaders and thugs entered they ruthlessely destroyed previous religions and subjugated them by force.In that process they destryed many religious places for the purpose of looting.Once those religious places are destroyed they built their mosques on the ruins of previous religious places.The latest example is World Trade centre ruins in New York.After destrying the towers, now Moderate muslims want to build a mosque on those ruins.This is the pattern that Islam followed and still following.Did Muslim invaders who destroyed religious places like Churches, Monasteries, Temples or Synagogues take the permission of courts to destroy them or did they take the permission of courts to build mosques?Your points mentioned are conveniently put forth to deny the injustice done hundreds of years ago to innocent people and their religious practices.If the present day Judges are corrupt and are influenced by Government in power, then are they right in giving verdict a on a matter that happend hundreds of years ago?
If the verdict comes in favour of Hindus, then will muslims hand over all the Mosques which are built on the ruins of so many religious places worldwide?These are all cosmetc sugestions which are mentioned for your faith’s convenience.If other religious faths destroy Mecca Mosque and offer to build a multi religious secular centre, will muslims accept it?By the way where islam is born, there is no other religious worship centres are there?Muslims should be happy that every nation which follow other religions, allowed muslims to build mosques on their soil.other religions are far more tolerant and accomodative than Islam.Better Muslims learn from others and change their ways.Otherwise this kind of religious bigotry will lead you nowhere but Hell which will have demons to sleep with.

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I agree with you Zia, but only part. What you are suggesting is judicial, non-political solutions – something that will not happen. What Shan suggests is bright. Why not make it a multi-faith complex? It is sensible and though it will not suit politicians / priests bent on milking the issue for their petty gains, it will be a good social-political solution. Rajeev bhai, you could be very right if you didn’t want to be wanting a black and white solution.

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I think the land should be given to Hindus. Building the temple is the ONLY solution and no other solutions bodes well for the country. Muslims can build whatever they want in a land far away. The center should give that land to Muslims free of cost. RAM TEMPLE MUST BE built and it should be respected by all communities in India.

Thank you

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I think you tried to put an alternate view but many of your views are too simplistic. You forgot to mix he complex religion theory behind it. What if it was really a temple and a birthplace of Ram? Then all your suggestions go terribly wrong. Try visualizing people asking proofs of existence for all the palaces/people/events/incidents Quran mentions. Will someone allow talks for removal of Mecca structures because there was no legal proof of its complete stories?

Also, I am not sure what this judgement will figure out. What will they look into for proofs? — History is always re-written by invaders, proofs of destructions are easily converted into glories. Also is it really thinkable that they burried the temple remains right below the babri masjid? Could not they have moved and thrown those somewhere distant? — what will court prove then?

I have a simple question – if Ram was not born at that place? — where was he born? — I am not aware of any other place in Ayodhya which is being mentioned as his birth place. That will put question on his existence itself? Did he ever existed? If he can not be proved to be existed (by our able courts), then entire Hindu religion’s existence becomes questionable.

Now the question is — will this pending judgement will address that and tell me if not there then where Ram was born?

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Let us wait for High Court verdict on 24 September 2010. It is better not to say anything as the issue is sub judice.

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The first thing people are saying is why muslims are protesting….. tell me what should a person do if he/she is seeing his place of worship getting demolished in front of his eyes….. what should one do distribute sweets..?? If there was any mandir existing over that place then this point applies to both of’em.

I feel, we should get a plan that should be acceptable to both the community without hurting’s other’s sentiments…

Why we are provoking each other’s community with this issue … there are so many other important issues in this country to be addressed. If there was a mandir…. give hindu community the equal space beside it to construct a mandir the way they whish … and muslim community to get them a mosque from them to pray…. let them open one Ashram and one madarsa side by side… let them havce students exchange programs… then by that way get the good things come out among them…. Show the world that we are first Indians then anything else… Islam has forbidden muslims to show dsrespect to any other religion… I assume the same teaching should be there in Hindu;s also…

Already our country is struggling hard to cope with its issues… Guys come out of it….

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:01 pm

I agree with you…Your will is our duty.

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 1:11 am

Will Islam give up Mecca/Medinah and Kaabah ?

is’nt that an occupied place ?

Why does islam go elsewhere and build there places.

Mohd, the founder, created this whole problem.
He is an example for thugs in islam to go and occupy other religious peoples places.

These thugs are just following his acts.

Why cant kaabah, be a national musuem ?

[Reply]

Rahmath Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 10:30 pm

Sam,

Are you a Indian?????

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:52 pm

FAIZ YOU ARE ONE DUMB FVCK!

WHAT ABOUT THE 1000S OF TEMPLES THAT WERE Destroyed BY ISLAMIC INVADERS/MOGULS so that they could build their mosques ontop of the temples………why on top? to show who was victrious!

foool!

you chat utter bull! your comments are contradictory of you ancestors actions! your ancestors were either converted or were the weak hindu bitc ches who had to be the muslim masters slaves or wives! tell me how islam came to india? learn history fool!

when the muslim ******** arrived and spread their filth! THE HINDUS/JAINS/ BUDDISTS were forcefully converted ……by the sword…. dont give me bull about how innocent ur religion is………..till the day it was born islam has been nothing but peace

tell me what the hell could the weak local hindu people could do when they saw their place of worship their temples destroyed infront of their eyes after the islamic invaders beat the indian defence? tell me!!!!!!!
was their a court to oppose this? was there a vote!? …….

dont chat bull! wake up ………if ur justifying this .. then all mosques in the indian sub continent need to be destroyed to rebuild the rightfull temples that were destroyed by force!

[Reply]

I think we have enough Mandirs and Masjids in India already…one more or one less is not going to make any difference…and why do we need a multi-worship place, cnt u simply build a school or a hospital or a high education institute, and make both the parties sponsor it, I know the idea is a little utopian but im sure worth thinking.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

You are right..Ayodhya is just any place for Hindus but it is absolutely important for muslims. I guess muslims should move KAABA to Ayodhya.

[Reply]

Ankit Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 2:24 pm

U still don’t get it. Majority of people don’t even care whats going to be there. It doesnt impact them in any way. Ram won’t become a bigger god by having a temple at Ayodhya, and muslms wont become happy even if there is a mosque there. So have neither at all.

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:11 pm

DUDE says no to islam……….

VOTE for DUDE for next KING / PRESIDENT / PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA!

I’ll clean the whole country up!
I’ll make it prosper!
I’ll create harmony!
I’ll build whole new cities with fresh clean water for all!
I’ll star in movies!
I’ll have beautiful HOT women!
I’ll make bollywood better than hollywood!
I’ll get rid of all arabs!
I’ll make bollywood free from underworld muslim chains!
I’ll screen all muslim actors and put a stop to their stardom!
I’ll get rid of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism!
I’ll reclaim all our lands – Including afghanistan, pakistan, bangerstan!
I’ll create buddist, jain, hindu finance!
I’ll make sanskrit a must to learn for Real Indians.
I’ll ship all muslims out to arabia. They can burden that dump with their countless incest babies!
I’ll build real new places of worship, keeping in line with the old!
I’ll create a new safe railway service!
I’ll make India more green!
I’ll be a trillionaire!
I’ll create housing for all the true indians!
I’ll erradicate poverty!
I’ll make India Great!
I’ll make India a footballing nation!
I’ll make converting to Islam and any other fake abrahamic religion ILLEGAL!
I’ll have one child policy for muslims who stay in India! – Very strict rule!
I’ll make China one of India’s best allies!
I’ll reclaim all assets and treasures that were stolen by Britain and rest of world!
I’ll clean up the streets!

VOTE FOR DUDE! …. DUDE LOVES YOU, WILL STICK BY YOU AND WILL GET RID OF THE SCUM!

DUDE

Reclaim all of Kasmir too! a must!

oi Indian Government; invade pak land (old india land) and reclaim the streets!

If pak takes indian kashmir! you people should be ashamed of yourselves! bend over backward dopes!

do what the dumb paks do, ATTACKKKKKKKKK!

DESTROY THAT DUMP AND RECLAIM! GET RID OF THESE RACIST, INTOLERANT MUSLIMS!

PS.

VOTE FOR DUDE!

I’ll also get rid of all corrupt government officials! permenantly!
I’ll deffo get rid of all muslim officials in indian government! No muslim will be allowed any say!

VOTE FOR DUDE!

ALL HINDUS, SIKHS, BUDDISTS, JAIN; VOTE IN UNISOM………..THE POWER OF ONE MASSIVE 800 MILLION VOTE, WILL PUT PRESSURE ON INDIAN GOVERNMENT TO GET RID OF ALL MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT LET INDIA BE RUN BY MUSLIMS! DON’T YOU KNOW THEIR AGENDA EVER SINCE THEY INVADED IRAN AND CAME TO THE BORDERS OF INDIA 1000 ODD YEARS AGO!

peace

VOTE FOR DUDE!

TODAYS UPDATE;

VOTE FOR DUDE FOR NEXT PRESIDENT / KING / PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA…………..

FOR A ISLAM FREE INDIA………

VOTE FOR DUDE…………DUDE CARES

………… oh

You stupid hinuds, buddists, sikhs who eat halal meat around the world, shame on you!!!!!
Why eat something that is anonymouse with islam and its bullcrap?

Promote JHATKA MEAT…….the real meat that you should eat if your a a non veg hindu/buddist/sikh/jain……Promote this, teach your kids to not accept halal or kosher bollocks!

Teach them the JHATKA WAY……THE CLEAN ONE SWIFT STRIKE OF THE BLADE TO KILL THE ANIMAL WHOM WILL FEEL NO PAIN!
Have respect for the animal, as oppose to the halal muslim way where they torture the animal draining its blood whilst alive!
disgrace!

shame on you if you eat halal!

preserve your own traditions don’t be fooled by islamic propaganda…you do not have to bend over backwards, catering for their needs all the time! these islamites teach their kids from early age only to eat halal! you think thier microscopic brains sway from this? NOOO!

WAKE UP EAT JHATKA PRESERVE YOUR TRADITION, RESPECT THE ANIMAL, TEACH YOUR KIDS FROM EARLY AGE!

VOTE FOR DUDE!

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 7:55 pm

ankit you foool ………..

you are just like the weak indian corrupt pri ck like ur ancestors who paved the way for islam to enter india!

weak bend over backward foool!

why dont u tell muslims that a hindu temple needs to be built in mecca in place of the kabba!

heck it was an ancient hindu pilgrimage site anyway………..im sure shivas ling is there too….
why dont u tell the muslim authorities this……..liek u say who cares these days right? i mean it was only where mohammed the peado preached his garbage

I have a question for Zia and all other commentators.
Assume that I was big don of the area where Zia lives. The police was in my left pocket, so it would not question what I did or even if it did for public consumption it will make a big show of it but will do nothing against my interest.
Now I took a fancy to Zia’s house. I sent my goons at night, got some sale deed of Zia’s house signed by Zia at gun point and threatened Zia with dire consequences if he opened his mouth, threw him out and took possession of his house. Now I and my descendants are legal owners of his house. What will the courts do if at all approached after a few generations? Will they ignore the papers?
But the fact is that the house morally belongs to Zia’s descendants.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

You bloody communal HINDU.

[Reply]

@faiz

“:Islam has forbidden showing disrespect to any other religion”….. you out of your mind?? So what is desecration of Shia, Zufi, Christian, Hindu worship palce sin Pakistan? What baout the successive razing of Somnath Temple? What about the destruction by Babur, Aurangazeb et al? what about Tipu razing temples and churches in kerala and Canara? What about the destruction of synagogues by the prophet himself?

We focus on the destruction of “ONE” mosque here; I should say we should follow the court verdict; although I believe it should never have gone to the court.

So, in the whole of India, from time immemorial, ONE mosque (may be three!) was demolished by a section of 800 million people. How many Hindu temples were destroyed? – although the destruction was preindependence.

While we focus on this ONE destruction, we never look into how many new mosques and churches are constructed. I would bet the new temples to new mosque ratioo in post independent India is
1: 750 ; ie 750 mosques for every new temple (I would say all over India, there may not be not more than 100 new temples (excluding the shanty roadside stalls with a God statue) constructed).

So why do we focus on ONE destruction; and create a framework that life of Muslims is in danger in Indiia, instead of focusing (focus may be a wrong word) on the thousands of new mosques that have been and are being created. I can categorically state that thousands of new mosques and churches have been built in Kerala in the last 25 years and no new temple is built. And it may not be different in other states.

While we all would prefer that the mosque was not destroyed, the destruction should not have been taken that serious (And they should not have gone with the destruction in such a fanfare), and the politicians should not have made that an issue of Indian secularism. THe secularism is evident in the pace of new construction, than in the destruction of ONE mosque in a place considered sacred by a majority of the 800million people.

We can move on

[Reply]

last few yrs many mosques have been distroyed by muslims themselves world over.it is common news everyday a masjid or a mattam is bombed,muslims hardly even talk about it.what moral relevance or significance babri masjid has in the muslim mind is because of hindus and nothing to do with faith.many mandirs were distroyed in their rule,they should take this as penance and move along.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 20th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

A muslim can bomb mosque…that’s OK by Quran.

[Reply]

Zia : You are talking in purely academic sense., and are arguing the case with such romantic idealism as if it were a debate at the High School Debating Society ! Right now as we are reading your blog, RSS with its 8 lakh Army (Mafia)., armed with lakhs of sharp swords, acid bombs, thousands of gas-cylinders., geeps etc. etc. is gathering the warewithal to unleash riots against un-armed and unprotected Muslims. While the RSS chaddiwallahs indulge in the national sport of “Rape and Kill Muslims with impunity” , the salaried RSS workers in trousers (Police/RAF/CRPF/BSF) look the other way round.

At this very moment, the RSS is planning riots/pogroms. Expose THAT rather than indulge in academic talk !

[Reply]

1) In the East God won (big time), in the west, science.

2) The muslim world is weak because the religion is strong

3) Jews rank high amongst Nobel prize winners but not Israelis. Why? Because Israel is a religious country!

[Reply]

I have something personal to share here-
1. In 1992, I was in UP when Mulayam asked police to fire on Karsevaks. I felt detached from karsevaks as well as Police. I found Ayodha dispute a nuisance.
2. During those days, SP govt. became very pro-muslim (pro-yadav). Azam Khan even called Bharat Mata WITCH. This was the first time I felt kind of angry.
3. When I heard many muslim asking hindus to prove whether RAMA really existed, it made me even more angry. I wanted to ask muslims to prove if prophet ADAM really existed and was kaaba built by any prophet. As per the evidence Kaaba is an occupied Pagan temple.
4. Then BJP came in and we saw babri demolished. I was very upset but when I saw riots all over the country (mostly started by upset muslims), I began to question importance of Ayodhya for muslims. Why were muslims so adamant on having mosque in a place which is almost as holy for Hindus as Mecca is for muslims.
5. Then we heard of news (even videos) showing muslims of pakistan and Bangladesh bringing down hindus temple. It was reported than dozens of temples were demolished in land of peaceful people. I did not see hindus in pakistan going on rampage, bombing pakistani cities.
I started to side with temple in Ayodhya.
6. I was in Pune when guardian of upset muslims Dawood Ibrahim bombed BOMBAY in 1993. I was horrified. I realised that muslims were basically following the path of stubbornness and violence (very similar to what they do world over e.g. Palestine, Chechenya and now ground zero mosque).
7. The continuous terror against Hindus and logic by our seculars that hindus deserve this for Babri angered me more. Now I wanted temple built because I could see shamelessness in muslim demand. They were being inconsiderate (as they are in case of ground zero mosque) bordering on being stubborn (inflexible).
8. Now we say India has moved on and Ayodhya is of no relevance to Indians. I think we are making a very general statement here. We should be saying that Hindus have moved on and Ayodhay has no relevance for hindus. As far as muslims are concerned, they have not moved on. They still want a mosque at that site at any cost. They want to show hindus who is the BOSS…Now I want a temple at any cost there.

Despite so much anger against muslim inflexibility, I still think we should have temple and mosque side by side. We hindus should make this compromise as we are the defeated people. We should remember the fact that our ancestors lost this land to muslims, infact some of them worked with muslims to bring down other hindu empires. Many of our ancestors were darbaris of muslim emperors and even gave their daughters to them (by the way they kept lower caste untouchable hindus away while embracing muslims). We were the people who lost this land then sold this land and became a permanent slave. We helped muslim cause by keeping our caste system thus providing our lower castes as easy recruits for muslims.

WE ARE DEFEATED PEOPLE and WE HAVE NO WILL NO RIGHT..WE SHOULD COMPROMISE WITH VICTORS.

All these VHP and Bajrang Dal activists are nothing but BHAANDS who have nothing better to do.
It is time HINDUS should be shown their place. Enough of this Hindutva.

[Reply]

shan Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 1:54 am

@Rajeev, from a delusional bengali, recently (three days ago) Rahul gandhi said “jo bangal sochte hai , hindustan kartey hai”, and I am not bringing along what Gokhale said , though I will concede thirty plus years of SCUM RULE has turned that place into a pig’s stye.
Now you are letting your emotions getting the better of you. I DO NOT ACCEPT WE ARE DEFEATED PEOPLE. iF IT WERE THE CASE THEN ENTIRE INDIA WOULD BE CIRCUMCISED NOT 10%. Not a single hindu converted , those converted were at the fringe of society, probably not even hindus but different tribes of whom hindus have had no interest.as HINDUS ARE THE MOST INSULAR AND INCAPABLE OF PROSELYTISATION AS THIS WAS NOT A ORGANISED RELIGION. yes a fair bit may be due to caste oppression but .0001% due to love for islam. Infact muslims as an individual are the nicest people on earth , as a group are all jihadist thus vile. Also Hindu prejudice is hundreed times more than muslim prejudice. You know it very well. Take my mother , if I married a christian she may have a mild heart attack , if i married a muslim girl she will have cardiac tamponade. That however didnot prevent me falling hopelessly in love with a muslim girl , and I coudn’t have cared hoots if the girl’s family agreed.
Also my other girlfriend told me that her granny wouldn’t receive fruits brought to her as gifts from poor muslim vendors(an area of darkness).
Also hindus shouldn’t have demolished the mosque , DEMOLITION (ICONOCLASM) IS HALLMARK OF ISLAM, thus by that act they are becoming mirror image of muslims.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 6:06 am

Shan,
Getting praise from ignorant Rahul Gandhi is not an achievement you can boast of.
He is on a long picnic or in Mamta’s word ‘A cuckoo’ or ‘A seasonal flower’. He will end up like his father..Rajeev Gandhi bored us with ‘Hum Dekhenge’, this **** is boring us with ‘Hum Dikhayenge’…

I agree with the disagreement that you have expressed about Hindus. I have always felt that we go out of our way to wish muslims Eid, embrace them, hug them but treat our own dalit brothers shabbily. We appease muslims because we are terrified of the violence they can commit when offended…poor dalits can do almost nothing.

Frankly speaking hindus are disgrace…

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 6:11 am

Shan,
There is a fact known thru out India. When muslims attack hindus during riots, it is all lower caste people who come out to counter attack..All upper caste hindus can do is to write article praising Bharat Mata, going around in Chaddi..

Most of the upper caste hindus are first rate cowards… I wish I was born dalit..They still are loyal towards the religion who has treated them worse than animals.

Hindus deserve kick in their arse..Muslims are born victorious…See they have made west back down..This they have done thru sheer will, strong faith (although misguided) and ability to collectively tell lie in different forms. They are masters of cunning diplomacy, absolute horrying violence whereas we are timid, apologetic and defesive weak kneed cowards.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 6:17 am

Shan,
I don’t have any ill-will towards INDIVIDUAL muslims but when they are in a goup, they are a menace.
I come from urban background so never saw Hindu prejudice in action. I have been visiting dargah since my childhood and have great respect for Sufism. I have eaten in muslim homes, invited them to share meal with me. As far as marrying is concerned, I am not against marrying muslim provided they don’t force you (or try to brainwash) Islam. Same goes for xtians. My concept is very clear..I’ll respect your religion provided you respect else F*** OFF.

[Reply]

Rahmath Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 10:07 am

“Why were muslims so adamant on having mosque in a place which is almost as holy for Hindus as Mecca is for muslims” – you won me over to your side.i was not in any side before.

[Reply]

Raju Kurien Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 2:26 pm

Everything has been distorted/not properly presented to win over one group vs other. While the demolition was bad, what really caused the anguish was the way it was done — through a national “pride reawakening” procession across many states.

Otherwise, the demolition would have been considered an isolated incident. And in the presence of totally disproportinate number of new mosques constructed in India (700 or so new mosques for every new temple in post independent India) vs temples would have overtaken teh demolition as the news.

[Reply]

Rahmath Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:31 pm

“700 or so new mosques for every new temple in post independent India)” -is that a true fact..cause where ever i go i find it a little difficult to find a mosque though i can see a temple pretty easily!!!!

Sam Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

Wow!!
Rahmath can only see temples..
Are you another babur,
so that even those remaining temples have to be “conquered” with islamic fortresses
(also called mosques) ??

Rahmath Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

Sam…..
it was a genuine question. and was not meant to accuse anyone. its better to stick to facts. if references were given it would be credible. believe me i tried to search fro records , 1:1 ratio may be probable but telling that there are 700 mosques fro 1 temple is extremely improbable, but i don’t expect you to understand that..

[Reply]

shan Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 1:46 am

@Rahmath, you are quite right , that statistics is simply ****, in fact rajasthan , tamil nadu doesn’t have great deal of mosque, but beleive me in UK the ratio of mosque to hindu temples is definitely closer to 1:700

DUDE Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:11 am

SO YOU WANT HINDU AND MOSQUE SIDE BY SIDE? YOU ARE JUST LIKE YOUR WEAK ANCESTORS WHO WERE CONVERTED BY THE SWORD!

BEND OVER BACKWARD…YES SIR YES SIR FOOL!

…….ISLAM AND ANY MOSQUE IS OPPOSED BY ALL HINDUS! WAKE UP LEARN FACTS!

ISLAM IS NOT PEACE ……HISTORY TELLS US THIS .. EVEN PRESENT DAY TELLS US THIS!

IF INDIA HAS ANY SENSE! IT WILL ABOLISH THIS STUPID IDEA! IF IT AGREES THEN ITS ANOTHER VICTORY FOR ISLAM!

WHY THE FVCK SHOULD THEY GET ANOTHER FVCKING MOSQUE? ……… ALL THEY DO IS TAKE LAND AND CONVERT BY FORCE!

WAKE UP!

[Reply]

Farid,
No that is a lie..Under BNP govt. more and more temples were demolished and their land taken away.
It is only after Awami league has come to power, hindus are getting some justice but their temples are still lying demolished…

Lajja…

[Reply]

—– LIE—IS–
—INTENTIONAL SUPPRESSION OF FACTS
AND
—-WILLFUL DISTORTION OF FACTS——-
AND
I DO NOT DO THAT.

If any one find any discrepancy in my thoughts,ideas and writings— that may be due to ignorance or short of data / information.
Any one pointing to my shortcomings——–are welcome—because it helps me –overcoming
my limitations.
AFTER BABRI MOSQUE EPISODE—–TEMPLES WERE DAMAGED——- MOST OF TTHOSE WERE RECONSTRUCTED—-I AM NOT SAYING ALL——IF ANY ONE APPLIES TO THE GOVERNMENT— THEY WILL GET HELP. IN BANGLADESH FOR RECONSTRUCTION—REPAIR.
BANGLADESH MAY BE A SMALL COUNTRY BUT A DIGNIFIED ONE.FLOODS AND OTHER CALAMITIES VISITS REGULARLY—-NOW THERE IS FLOOD—WE ARE NOT BEGGING AND LAST TIME OUR GOVERNMENT EXPRESSED IT’S RELUCTANCE
[POLITELY] IN ACCEPTING RELIEF.
—-HERE IN USA —— PRESS COMMENTED—LEARN DISASTER MANAGEMENT ——–FROM BANGLADESH.

HINDU—-BUDDHIST AND CHRISTIAN OIKKYA [ UNITY ] PARISHAD
[ ORGANIZATION] IS VERY VOCAL AND ACTIVE. THEY WOULD HAVE POINTED OUT IT———–IF ANY TEMPLE STILL REMAINED UNATTENDED.

[Reply]

what the f.u.c.k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what about all the temples islamic crusaders destroyed since the time they arrived 1000 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where were the courts for them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this zia fu ck can piss off!

why the f uck is this being debated?????

what about the recent budha statues that were destroyed by islamic t wats in afghanistan in 2000?

if these degenerate muslims win this! then india needs to wake up! all its 800 milllion people need to wake upand get the fu cking government out and destroy all mosques!

Im gonna lead a personal campaign together with all non abrahamic religions of india to oust islam and its shit ppl!

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 11:17 pm

Have you ever given thought about hindus in muslim countries?

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 11:54 pm

THE T WATS PROBABLY GET ABUSED!

[Reply]

Dude,
What’s wrong with you? Pl. maintain some civility.

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 11:54 pm

People like me should be in charge of india!

all these bend over backward weak natives who lay the path for islam to invade would have perished under me!

I single handedly would have flicked turks and moguls to oblivion!

and you sir, if you support the unisom of muslims then you too are just like their ancestors….yes you know the weak that were converted by force…….

all you brown muslims! READ AND LEARN YOUR BLOOD IS OF THE HINDU BLOOD!
YOUR ANCESTORS WERE HINDU/JAIN/BUDDIST!………

WAKE UP RECONVERT TO YOUR ANCESTRAL RELIGION! TELL YOUR MUM AND YOUR DAD!

ISLAM = EVIL!

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:13 am

Pagla gaya lagta hai

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:18 am

fool!

DUDE Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:19 am

hehe

Let us see will of liberal and right wing people on both hindu and muslim side.
1. Hindu liberal – Supports a mosque at that place. Want hindus out of there.
2. Muslim liberal – Demands a mosque at that place and hindus out.
3. Hindu right wing – Wants a temple at that place and muslims out
4. Muslim right wing – Demands a mosque at that place and hindus out.
5. Hindu moderate – Supports both mosque and temple side by side.
6. Muslim moderate – Demands a mosque at that place and hindus out.

So you see Hind liberal-moderate-right wing have different opinions but strangely muslim liberal-moderate and right wing have identical view on this dispute.

Now please tell me who has moved on….

[Reply]

syed Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 11:33 pm

I consider myself a “muslim moderate” and have no issues with hindus having the whole land, be my guest.

This is a matter of faith that a large number of hindus believe that the land is Ram Janambhoomi.

Some posts here have referred to the destruction of temples and the construction of masjids in their place. In such cases Islam is categoric that any namaaz offered in such places is Haraam and will NOT be accepted by Allah. The land HAS to be legally acquired.

So speaking in general – namaaz offered in a mosque built on land acquired through force or in any other illegal manner is haraam for all times and muslims who pray there are just wasting their time.

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:02 am

Did Mohd acquire Kaabah legally ?
who did he buy it from and what price he paid for it ?

[Reply]

Khan Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 12:24 am

Dear Sam firstly we have to clear onething from us we have to know the religion of Islam …..Islam is the only one & true religion in this Whole Universe.

Rahmath Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 10:38 pm

Khan….

You are not serious. How can you say that Islam is the only true religion.From my experience i have found that people who talk like that normally have zero knowledge on other religions and a single minded view of Islam.Unless you are an expert in other religions as well , i don’t think you can say that….

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:13 am

Syed,
here I have to agree with Sam. The Namaz offered at Kaaba should also be Haram as it was a pagan temple captured by Mohammad.

[Reply]

Khan Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 12:29 am

Y u peoples are all too much Talking bad our Religion .Dont blame our prophet he is the veryright person he didnt fight with anybody.He is a messanger of Allah.May Allah give u good sense & understandings of Islam……….

Now what I want to happen-
I frankly don’t want either side to loose because it will break the heart of the loosing side permanently damaging relations between hindus and muslims.

I wish judges pronounce a SPLIT verdict that says-
1. Legally this land belongs to muslims based on land records from mughal time.
2. But there are ample evidence of non-muslim structure possibly hindu under the demolished mosque.

I have heard many muslims say if it is proved that temple was demolish to construct mosque, they will handover the land to hindus. I don’t think that is going to happen.
So the best solution based on split verdict will be to allow a temple and a mosque side by side on that site. If muslims wish to wash away sins on invasion, forced conversion, brutality and partition then they can show large heartedness and hand over site to hindus. In return hindus should allow muslims to contruct a mosque within Ayodhya and also promise that they will noty lay claims on Gyanwapi mosque (very hindu name for mosque) and Shahi mosque (in Mathura).

The time has come for muslims to accept that they too were victims of Islamic invasions and share same genes with Hindus. They should try to get rid of mentality that they ruled over hindus for 800 years. I am pretty sure most of the rulers have no blood relations with majority of Indian muslims.

You see after Akbar, most of the mughal kings had hindu mothers. So most of the last mughal emperors had almost 100% hindu blood.. If mughal emperors can be 100% of hindu blood, why can’t current muslims accept that they may be 100% hindu by blood.

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
September 21st, 2010 at 11:49 pm

Because their brain capacity can not accept this FACT!

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DUDE Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:02 am

FOOOL!

THEY SHOULD TAKE DOWN EVERY SINGLE MOSQUE IN THE INDIAN SUB CONTINENT! JUST LIKE HOW THEIR INVADERS DID TO THE TEMPLES AND BUILT THEIR MOSQUES ON SHIVAS LING!

TAKE EM DOWN AND REBUILD THE TEMPLES!

WHATS NOT THEIRS WONT HURT THEM!

IF THEY STILL WANNA PRACTICE THEIR DEVIL RELIGION THEN SHIP EM OFF TO ARABIA…. LET THAT TOILET HOLE GET BURDENED BY THEIR MULTIPLE INCEST BABIES… SEE HOW THESE BROWN NON PURE MUSLIMS GET TREATED BY THEIR ANCESTRAL INVADERS!

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GET ISLAM OUT OF INDIA!

COMMONWEALTH MICKEY MOUSE GAMES ARE ON ….SHOW CASE THIS AND LET THE WORLD SEE…….INDIANS HATE MUSLIMS!

ISLAM FREE INDIA!

GET ISLAM OUT!

DESTROY ALL MOSQUES!

CONVERT ALL BASTA RD MUSLIMS BACK INTO THEIR ANCESTRAL RELIGION! FORCEFULLY

[Reply]

@Rajeev,
I think as per Islamic tradition the Kabah was supposed to be built by Adam (first man) and rebuilt by Abrahim (one of the first prophets of Islam) and then later taken over by pagans. So, in effect Mohammad simply took over what was originally his religion’s own. Now I am not going into the legal issues if you will, but what the faithful believe.

Responding to your last post reg Ram Janambhoomi, a lot of muslims I have spoken to say they have no problem if the land is given to hindus but are afraid that this would open a bees nest – recall what the VHP & its assorted bunch says – they will not rest till they “liberate” several lakh such “mosques” including the Taj Mahal!

The problem is – who speaks for hindus and for how long? Today muslims might give in and the BJP would say it has no further claim on other disputed structures. But what is stopping a new party or organisation after say 20 years to lodge a fresh claim on all such places.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:08 am

Syed,
Regarding Kaaba, you have stated the muslim belief but Adam and Abraham were not muslim prophets. They were forcefully included into Islam. The Kaaba was always a pagan temple and all this Adam and Abraham constructing is just made up story.

You may be feeling that I am being rude but beleive me muslims speak exactly like this about hindu beliefs.

I am yet to meet any muslim who has tried to convince his community to give that land to hindus. I have seen Shia leader Kalbe Sadiq making some positive statement but it looks like sunnis are the sole voices of all muslims in this country.

One thing that I agree with you totally is that if muslims give up the land to hindus, what is the gurantee that hindus will not demand other places such as Gyanwapi mosque, mathura mosque etc. There are enough evidences to prove that mosque at varanasi, mathura and lal kot (autub complex) were made after demolishing temple but hindus will have to compromise here.
If hindus start claiming site after site, where will it end? I think it is very important that govt. and Supreme court should become party to the agreement making it very clear that after BABRI land is given to hindus, hindus will never lay claim to any disputed sites evenif it is proved beyond doubt that these disputed sites were built on demolished temples.
The muslims should also acknowledge that muslim invaders committed unspeakable crimes on native population including their own ancestors and should ask for better understanding with Hindus. Finally hindus should let bygones be bygones…

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:53 am

Adam & Abraham are not Muslims.
They would not even know the world Islam or Muslim.

Anyway, if Mohd could reclaim Kaabah

why not Hindus reclaim their religious places.

Mohd himself is a bad start, as he occupied other people’s places.
And every idiot in islam want to mimic him and take over other people’s places.
(of course they will claim, it was originally builty by Allah and they are just reclaiming it back,..)

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:47 am

You are right. As per Syed’s logic mohammad reclaimed Kaaba so why can’t hindus reclaim ram janambhoomi..

j Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:34 pm

Kabah origianlly built as was defiled with idols and which was restored as mosque again by muslims.
Idol worhip is not a faith or belief , it is blind-faith and stubborness and doesnt inculcate respect of the real god in thhe idol worhipers.
YOU will notice this during visarjan , idols are pushed in water with legs (kicked from boat) what a shame!

Please open you eyes, do a correct study of each religion and then think why islam is the fastest spreading religion

If the forefathers of indian muslim were forcibly converted , then why these muslim are not ready to go back to their father’s old religion. BEcause they have reasliesd that islam is GOd’s religion and the only means of salvation. Islam is on the brink of being the highest number followeres in the world in a few years

Sam Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 2:29 am

>Islam is on the brink of being the highest number followeres in the world in a few years

How sad that day will be…

world is full of stupidity than basic common sense..

Sam Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:58 am

Why not have a commission to identify all places which had Hindu temples ?

Once those list is identified, Muslims should give up all such places..
It is only fair, if they want to live with dignity and pride that everyone corrects past mistakes and moves forward.

If all muslims left to Pakistan, this issue would not have arisen..

Congress made biggest mistake.
When it agreed for Partition, it should have insisted on all Muslims leaving to Pakistan.

All Indians are paying for Congress’s sins.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:51 am

Sam,
I guess you are asking for TOO MUCH. I think what we need is compromise. The hindus and muslims should compromise and live as one people.

Hndus had two chances to get rid of muslims.
1. When Mohd. Bin Qasim and hordes of invaders attacked India, we should have repelled them but we could not. So we can just blame ourselves for that.
2. When partition happened, hindus should have defied mahatma and power hungry nehru and should have forced muslims out of India (as pakistan did in 1947 with hindus, so muslims can not take moral high ground here) but we didn’t do so. We loved Mahatma more than the nation. This is our failure.

Now hindus can just compromise and suck on secularism (read pro-muslim) lollipop and keep shut.

shan Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:22 pm

Sam your thoughts has echoes of NAZI RACIAL CLEANSING, but it is true the partition could have managed better, proper exchange of population AND MUSLIMS WHO WANTED TO STAY IN INDIA SHOULD BE MADE AWARE THAT THEY WILL HAVE TO EMBRACE SECULARISM BY HEART, THUS NO MUSLIM PERSONAL LAW, ELSE MOVE ACROSS THE BORDER.

Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:48 pm

@Rajeev, Samm, Syed, Shan

It is fashionable to blame Mahathmaji. Of all the leaders present and past,Ihere and abroad, I rather have a Mahathmaji to lead us.

As far as Muslims are concerned, there were Muslims in the southwest coast (kerala) long before bin Quasam’s invasion. However, they came as traders and settled down, not as invaders.

Our “sanatan dharma” is an inclusive, accepting philosophy. It has only enriched us.

The issue with Muslims (I do not thhink it is all Muslims, but a considerable minority) is the insistence on isolation – with the result they become more backward, more fundamentalist, more apt to listen to illiterate Mullahs. Saudii Arabian money is supporting this too.

There is an internal “who is purer Muslim” tension happening in Islam. However, i thiink, the bad guy is winning that struggle. The Wahabi/salfi wing wants to take Muslims to the Arabian sands of 650. Paaistani killings of Shias, Ahmadiyas, Sufis are parts of this. The emergence of extremist Islamic parties like SDPI/PFI (the group who chopped off teh hands of a professor here in Kerala) is an outgrowth of this movement in India.

Young “forward” (?) Muslims have to take leadership if Muslims are to avoid their miserable fate in otehr countries, including the so aclled Islamic countries.

200 million people have to be integarted, either by force, or through legislation, or through NGO activities. Or the whole 200 million has to be carved out. Carving out is not a solution, because even if the whole country is Hindu, theer will be otehr carving out tendencies.

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 9:00 pm

Gopi,
I agree with you on everything except MAHATMAJI part. He is the reason India is forced to remain a soft power never achieving true potetial. When China walks over tibet, no one questions, when pakistan takes over balochistan by force, no one even takes notice but we try to consolidate our control on Kashmir (land of kashmiri pandits), we are lectured by kashmiris, pakistanis, chinese, libyans etc. reminding us that we are land of MAHATMA..We should just roll over and let agressor kick our butt. Sorry, Mahatma was relevant duing freedom struggle because we were not strong enough to confront super power UK in an arm struggle. By the way Indians are not cut out for revolutions anyway. They were happy chanting some slogans, burning clothes, going home for lunch and then indulge in more slogan shouting and at night hump their wives.

shan Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:13 pm

@J, classical signs of a cretin. Islam will grow because poverty and illiteracy will grow. Wherever there is reason , science and logic it will be perceived as a sick joke, with its founder sleeping with an adoloscent and marrying nine , and fighting couple of war in between. The whole islamic theology is utter BUNKUM. According to islam , heaven is where there is seventy two virgins,somebody commented it is more of a brothel. Hinduism is too complex for a dick head for you to fathom . The idols are symbolic of the one , not the one. Far better than throwing stones at the mount arafat , with the gullible delusion of stonic the devil. There are millions of such thing in Islam , which only gullible fools will swallow.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:20 am

The sachchar committee has recommended steps to improve education etc. in muslim community but let us not forget the fact that India was divide by well educated muslim elite (to which Zia belongs) and not by poor uneducated muslims.

@Rajeev,
Reg. Kaaba..

Can you fight with what the faithful (of any religion believe)?

In my post of 21 September at 11:33 pm I have said .. “This is a matter of faith that a large number of hindus believe that the land is Ram Janambhoomi” so be it.

As a large number of hindus believe this it should be accepted as such.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:27 pm

Agree with you completely but please make your violent sunni brothers understand this.

If it was a dispute between Shia and Hindus, it would have been solved decades ago. The sunnis are violent and unclutured lot.

[Reply]

Amir Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 7:48 am

It is hard to make few agree, what to do. We are also having problems with them. Real islam doesn’t teach that. Islam would never would have spread so much if we had wabhis at that time. It was sufi saints who spread Islam world wide. And now they are calling people who follow sufi unislamic.

I say you guys take that place, and just finish the story.

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“Saki Sharab Peene De Masjid Main Baith Kar, Ya Woh Jagah Bata Jahan Par Khuda Na Ho.”

“Kabeera Teri Jhonpari Galkatiyan Ke Haath, Jo Karenge So Bharenge, To Kyon Hot Udaas.”

Ik Bangla Bane Nyara, Rahe Kunba Jisme Sara, Ik Bangla Bane Nyara.

[Reply]

Agree with Rajeev, stubbornness showed by Muslim community has equally contributed to the rise of Hindu fundamentalism as much as Sangh Parivar. Totally in sync with your description of upper class, writing articles about Bharat Mata on a comfy chair. But, partially agree with another sentence “Dalits still are loyal towards the religion who has treated them worse than animals”. Who do you think is fighting at the other end? That is one more converted Dalit, who was also treated equally bad by the society (before and after conversion).

What still made many Hindus turn away from the Ram temple issue is the national “pride reawakening” procession (tamasha on road, carried out by Sangh Parivar) as pointed by Raju Kurien.

Now the scary bit; there is call for restraint from every corner. Common, court is not ordering death sentence to anybody. (It is not Iraq hanging Saddam). We can still do what we are doing. Don’t keep reminding (scaring) us …. this is the day.. it is coming soon.. (with horror film music). Huff.. We want to breath.

Ashok Singhal, Syed Shahabuddin, Syed Ali Gilani, Bal Takre.. How old are these people? When will they retire from provoking people?

Lastly Common Wealth games; a neighbor whose home is flooded is obviously is not happy about the show off business in India. With Dawood at their home, his chamchas (betting mafia) free in Mumbai, having 1993 in background and recent rehearsals in 2008 and icing on the cake, mandir verdict couple of days more. Hope our intelligence service won’t let us down. Fingers crossed. (Agree, it worries more than Mandir)

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:08 pm

Vinay,
It is a fact that muslims entered India as invaders (except for Kerela), looted temples, destroyed temples and built memorials (mosque) to celebrate their victory over infidels.
I think muslims should accept this fact and basically tell hindus with sincere apologies to forget the past and work together. A large hearted sincere gesture from muslims can make RSS/VHP/BAC irrelevant. I am pretty sure hindus will not like to see their lives wasted for getting 30000 temples built over the mosque.

It is time to bury the hatchet and move on but it should be done on both the sides.

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:37 pm

>Vinay,
It is a fact that muslims entered India as invaders (except for Kerela), looted temples, destroyed temples and built memorials (mosque) to celebrate their victory over infidels.
I think muslims should accept this fact and basically tell hindus with sincere apologies to forget the past and work together.
>A large hearted sincere gesture from muslims can make RSS/VHP/BAC irrelevant

Are you telling that Muslims should accept Mohd committed the original sin, in occupying Kaabah with violence ?

If Muslims start giving up their “occupied territory” where will all end ?
Will they be asked to give up their Kaabah also ?

Muslims already know in their deep heart of hearts, that they occupied with violence.
They hate to admit in public though, as their entire faith and “stories” and “islam means peace” will be falling apart.

[Reply]

Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:27 pm

@Sam

Islam is not for peace; although many Muslims are for. Many Caliphs and Kings were for peace and for enlightenment. In fact, caliphs ahd members from Christianity and Judaism as their advisors — all during the “golden period” till 1200. Then, things fell apart; mullahs got upper hand, and the decline still continues.

The Islamic violence is a huge challenge, in islamic majority as well as minority countries. It has to be dealt with; the best way to do that is by strengtheninga nd supporting voices of reason; however small their number may be (like our Syed, Mirza, Rahmat etc in these blogs) . A thinking Muslim, in his heart of hearts, knows that the surviving Islam will be an indianized Islam, very much like Sufism, or a mixture of Shia/Indian philosphies; both rooted in introspection and meditation.

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:17 am

I am only asking muslims to acknowledge brutalities committed in the name of Islam for centuries and NOT ASKING them to give up all the captured places.

When POPE can apologise for church’s atrocities then why can’t muslims.

Faith is above laws. People continue to believe, irrespective of what the verdict says. But, peace (mental as well as society’s) must be above our faith, so hope people will obey the law (keep quiet).

[Reply]

We have heard a lie again and again that islamic terror in India started only after Babri demolition i.e. 1992.
What about-
1. Moplah riots
2. Direct action day
3. Partition riots
4. Riots in gujarat during 60s
5. N number of riots started by muslims in UP especially Aligarh, Moradabad, Sambhal, Kanpur etc. by muslims during 70s and 80s.
6. Bhagalpur riots

before 1992 hindus were always on receiving side as they well less equipped than muslims, it is only after 1992, 1993 and 2002 riots that muslims have understood that hindus can respond in kind.

I am no fan of regressive RSS but I am pretty sure RSS started in response to creation of MULSIM LEAGEUE that partitioned India.

The hindu fundamentalism is purely reactionary in nature whereas Islamic fundamentalism is part of glabal Jihad against non-muslims. We are just one of the enemies of muslims. They have issues with Xtians (west), Hindus (India and elsewhere), Jews (israel), Buddhists (thailand)..They have already defeated Parsis and Sikhs by throwing them out of their homeland.

[Reply]

Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:15 am

@Rajeev

Tipu Sultan, in the south, was a major looter/plunderer/killer/converter.. He is also the first (and only one) in India to raze Catholic churches also. He attacked and defeated many kings in the Malabar part of Kerala (North Kerala), pillored and converted. For a brief period, he even named Calicut as Islamabad.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 8:32 pm

Gopi,
The problem with Islam is that to be a good muslim, you have to reject everyone else..and this is the root cause of Islamic intolerance.

[Reply]

By the way Hashim Ansari (petitioner in Janambhoomi-babri case) is an arjal i.e. lower caste hindu who converted to Islam. The Ansaris are weaver caste and you will never find Asharfs marrying them.
Isn’t it ironic that an ex-hindu is fighting tooth and nail for 49 years for a masjid?

By the way philosiphical GUIDE of pakistan movement Iqbal came from family of converted kashmiri pandits. His grandfather was caught in a corruption case in Kabul and was given two options either to convert to Islam or die. He chose Islam and India paid the price. It makes me furious when our secular’s and muslims quote Iqbal’s poetry and ‘SAARE JAHAN SE ACHCHA’. Iqbal was a nationalist in the beginining but when he went to west he came back as fundamentalist fanatic muslims and proposed the idea of pakistan. He infact re-wrote ‘SAARE JAHAN SE ACHCHAA’ to express his new loyalty.
Here is the song also called TARANA-E-MILLI that was close to Iqbal’s heart-

cheen o Arab hamaraa hindostaaN hamaara

Muslim hain hum; watan hai saara jahaaN hamaara

tawheed ki amaanat seenoN meiN hai hamaarey

aasaaN naheeN miTaana naam o nishaaN hamaara

dunyaN ke but-kadoN meiN pahlaa woh ghar KHUDA kaa

hum uskey paasbaaN haiN woh paasbaaN hamaara

tayghon key saaye meiN hum, pal kar jawaaN huwey haiN

khanjar hilaal kaa hai qawmi nishaaN hamaara

maghrib ki waadiyoN meiN guunji azaaN hamaari

thamata na thaa kisee se sayl rawaaN hamaara

baatil se dabney waaley ay aasmaaN nahiN hum

sau baar kar chukaa hai tu imtihaaN hamaara

ay gulsitaan e andalus! woh din haiN yaad tujh ko

thaa teri DaaliyoN par jab aashiyaaN hamaara

ay mawjey dajlah! tu bhi pahchaanti hai hum ko

ab tak hai tera daryaa afsaana khwaaN hamaara

ay arz e paak! teri hurmat pey kaT marey hum

hai khooN teri ragoN meiN ab tak rawaaN hamaara

saalaar e kaarwaaN hai Mir e Hijaz apnaa

is naam se hai baaqi aaraam e jaaN hamaara

Iqbal kaa taraana baang e daraa hai goyaa

hotaa hai jaadah paymaa phir kaarwaaN hamaara

[edit] English Translation
China and Arabia is ours, India is ours

We are Muslims and the whole world is our homeland

The treasure of tawhid is in our hearts,

It is not easy to wipe out our name and mark.

The first house we have liberated from idols is the Ka’abah;

We are its custodians, and It is our protector

We have grown up in the shadows of swords,

Our mascot is the crescent shaped dagger

Our prayer calls have reverberated in the valleys of the west,

The force of our flow could not be stopped by anyone

O the skies! we will not be subdued by falsehood,

You have tried (our steadfasteness) a hundred times!

O, the garden of Andalusia! do you remember those days -

When our abode was the nest on your branches?

O, the waves of Tigris! surely, you recognize us -

Your river tells our tales even to this day

O, the pure land! we have bled and died for your honor,

Our blood flows in your veins until now

The leader of our caravan, is the Prince of Hijaz (Muhammad)

It is his name that keeps our heart in comfort and peace.

Iqbal’s song is a clarion call

For the caravan to rise and continue the journey once more

[Reply]

@Rajeev,

Agree with your opinions, Shias being moderate than Sunnis. They allow reformation in their religion. (Iran, a conservative Shia country has population growth less than half that of India). But our muslims here, always want to follow Saudi(Sunni) pattern. ( http://cobrapost.com/documents/family_planning.htm )

@Gopi,

Strongly disagree with your description of Tipu Sultan as “a major looter/plunderer/killer/converter..” :

For the people of Karnataka, he was none of the above, in fact was a hero who fought with British by pledging his children’s life. There are many famous temples which are stones throw away from his palaces both in Mysore and Bangalore, but he never touched them. Sringeri Matt which belonged to his province, received a threat from HINDU Maratas), it was Tipu who rescued the Mutt from Maratas. (I can assure you, people of Karnataka have always been looked after well by their rulers.. be it is Hindus or Muslims… TILL …independence. After that, it is only caste politics by “our chosen leaders” )

Tipu was a “king”, who lived 2 centuries ago. He did not know the word “Indian nation” or “secularirm”. He knew how to look after HIS people (in his kingdom) irrespective of their religion. But as you say when he defeated kings in the Malabar part of Kerala, he had a different attitude. He no more thought they were “his people” and thought best way to punish them was “converting them to islam”. (This is not very different from hindu Maratas who tried to capture Sringeri Mutt in his province).

But Auranzeb’s case is different. He was not considerate even with those Hindus who lived in his kingdom and tried to put Jizya on them. But then, was he really a mentally stable person is the question. A person can play power politics and do back stabbing. But how can a “NORMAL HUMAN BEING” kill his brothers so coldblooded, keep his father in prison for decades OPENLY? What kind of balanced ruling one could have expected from him? But more importantly, why this “MENTALLY CHALLENGED FELLOW” is pursued as an icon (hero in Pak and villain in India) from both communities?

About the contribution he made to Hindus; when did we start considering ourselves Hindus first? Yes, outsiders called the people living beside Sindhu river as Hindus, but we were not calling ourselves with the name. We were only Brahmins, Jats, Rajput. Just like how we should thank British for sowing the seed of India as a nation, we should thank Aurangzeb for “Jizya”, which brought Brahmin and Dalit under one roof “HINDU”.

About the temple he brought down to build the mosque, Muslims HAVE TO AGREE it was built more with the intention of showing Hindus about their ruler rather than the genuine faith.The importance of these masjids lie in the fact that they are more of “victory monuments” rather as places of worship (like Ajmir Dargah).

Lastly, Mandir-Masjid would not have blown up to be an issue if it was NOT headed by Ashok-Singhal(VHP) and Shahabuddin on each side. The leaders from respected communities within Ayodhya should have talked to each other and resolved the issue.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 8:30 pm

Vinay,
I also considered Tipu Sultan to be a secular sultan but facts speak otherwise. Please read more about how he treated CHRISTIANS (I am not saying hindus because hindus don’t matter for anyone when it comes to secularism).

[Reply]

shan Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:24 pm

@vinay, aurenzeb didn’t do anything unusual, muslim history is littered with such acts, starting right from the inception with the prophet himself ; followed by the succesion batlles(yes they were all balttles , each and every one of them)

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:53 pm

I once asked a muslim why Aurangzeb foced Jaziya (tax to be paid by dhimmi i.e. non-believer). His answer was that muslims are obligated to pay Zakat (Charity) whereas non-muslims are levied tax for safety under muslim rule. So for him Zakar and jaziya was basically the same. When I asked at what rate zakat is paid by muslim, his answer was it was VOLUNTARY and as per wishes of person based on his income. Whereas jaziya was almost 25% of the income that poor hindus were forced to pay to muslim rulers for their safety. This Jaziya was used for advancement of Islamic goals in India…

This is the hypocrisy that Zia types never talk about. I am pretty sure most of the hindus converted to Islam to escape PUNITIVE Jaziya tax as India has been traditionally a country of people who live in dire poverty.

[Reply]

Amir Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 7:37 am

No point of living in the past. You are just going to ruin your own life. aurangzeb is long dead and so are the people who used to pay taxes.

Rajeev Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

Amir,
The problem is that there are millions of muslims who consider Auranzeb role model. What should we do about them?

Frankly speaking, if I get a chance, I’ll have Auranzeb’s body exumed and bury it on the footsteps of Kashi-Vishwanath temple. He was the biggest criminal that India has ever seen. Had Dara Shikoh won the succession battle, we would have never had Pakistan, Aurangzebi muslims, Ayodhya dispute etc.

Gopi,
I’d like to raise issue of Professor whose palm was hacked off by peaceful people with you as you are from Kerela. I find it amazing that xtians are actually following the footsteps of hindus in appeasing muslims. I am pretty sure there are millions of muslims with name ‘MOHAMMAD’ and I am pretty sure lot of them are not pious. Many of them indulge in all sorts of things that are not only anti-social but also criminal. Is it not a blasphemy in the eyes of muslim when a person with name MOHAMMAD commits rape? Do they chop off his penis?

I remember Karunanidhi uttered lot of uncivillized words for Rama and was ably supported by SECULAR congress and their chamchas in media (Vinod Mehta/Sharma kinds), did hindus even issue a threat to Karunanidhi? NO…Because we know hinduism can not be brought down by thugs like Karuna-laloo-mulayam-sonia-rahul-Vinod Sharma-Vinod Mehta because hinduism is not personality based cult.

I frankly failed to understand muslim excitement whenever mohammad’s deeds are questioned. If people can make fun of Jesus (watch Simpsons, South park), Rama (watch comedy of Karuna and other secular), why can Mohammad be criticised? Remember he was only a human and SELF-Proclaimed prophet.

There are no NON-ISLAMIC source that mention Mohammad so his historicity can be debated and same is true for Jesus too. You find no mention of Jesus in any non-xtian source.

But Rama and Krishna are mentioned in non-hindus source such as buddhism and jainism and please note that both buddhism and jainism were more of a rebel movement against ritualistic Brahminism. So we can say historcity of Rama and Krishna is far more credible that Mohammad and Jesus.

[Reply]

shan Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:18 pm

@Rajeev, apparently there is a scholarly work by a turk ?500-600 yrs ago describing in graphic details the sex life of prophet. I came to know about it from a chanel4 programme with Tariq Ali the compere. Also just research internet, apparently in Hadith according to muslim(his name is muslim) there is clear description of prophet;s wives washing his clothes of stains from semen , so that he can wear them ready for his prayers.

[Reply]

Rajeev Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:48 pm

Shan,
The problem is if you quote Mohamad’s misdeeds from muslim sources, muslims start making silly arguement followed by collective howling ending in violence. On one hand they keep quoting history of mohammad and then on another hand they deny some sad facts.

I have said many times that Islam can not be reformed. I think I was not entirely correct. The Sufi varinat of Islam is actually the side we all would like to see but as per deobandis (Wahabis), sufi practices are unislamic. There are two prominent Islamic sects in India, one is Barelvi (Sufi, tolerant and Indianised) and other is deobandi (wahabi type, intolerant and more arabic). This sub-continent was dominated by Barelvis for hundred of years but with the start of muslim nationalism (resulting in physical pakistan and bangladesh), Deobandis have increased in large number and are now occupying centerstage in India, Pakistan and bangladesh. You will see in most of the TV shows, it is deobandis who represent muslims.

The AIMPLB does not allow a Ahmediya to be part of the board and you know why. It is because Ahmediyas do not accept MOHAMMAD as last and final prophet otherwise they beleive in all principles of Islam. The Ahmediyas consider Lord Krishna as Avatar/Prophet sent to India. The Ahmediya i.e Quadians are not allowed to perform hajj because of their believes.

We also see how Shias are treated as second class muslims by deobandi muslims. Their Muharram processions are attacked (jsut as durga procession). They are forced to play second fiddle to deobandis in media and elsewhere.

The problem people are basically deobandi sunnis, rest of the muslims are somewhat tolerant.

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Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:46 pm

@Rajeev, Vinay

Tipu’s “patayottam” (fast war) from Tirur in South Malabar to Managlore in North Malabar resulted in transforming Malabar. His own letter talks about converting 4 lakh infidels, rounding up Catholics, destroying temples and churches..Analysis of the modern Kerala population dynamics indicates an external event occurred in northern kerala creating a very large Muslim population (as opposed to southern kerala where the Arab traders first landed, in Cranganore). Malappuram district (where Tirur is located) is now 75% Muslim; the district was the “first Muslim district” in India, an appeasement done by Marxists under EMS Namboodiripad, a good Marxist, but who nevertheless wanted Msulim votes. There are two famous Krishna temples in kerala – the most famous one being the one in Guruvayoor (where the diety is suppposed to be the lord floating in water on a banyan leaf drifting from Dwaraka to south in the ocean) and one in Ambalapuzha. The Guruvayoor idol was moved to Ambalapuzha during Tipu’s run by priests who were afraid that Tipu will raze Guruvayoor. (which he did not). Even today, an offering is made to an empty slot in Ambalapuzha Temple, where the Guruvayoor idol was placed and worshipped during the Tipu run.

Regarding the chopping off the professor’s hand — Muslim radicals, belonging to PFI (basically a renamed SIMI/NDF) chopped off a hand of Prof Joseph as a revenge against the blasphemous questions he had on the Prophet in the mid term exam question paper. The question he had was really a “matching of words” from a play by the famous playright NP Muhamed. However, it was attributed that he deliberately wanted to defame the prophet.. Proceedings against him by the secular (!) university was going on, and he was alreday under suspension, when the Muslim militants attacked him taking law in their own hands..

The investigations after this incident have unearthed secret Islamic courts, Talibanic style justice system (apparently a tAaibanic court ordered the chopping), Pakistani connections, plans for wide scale Jehadism (not only against kauffrs, but also on moderate Muslims like the Muslim League party chiefs like E Ahmed, railway minister. Believe me, if we are not careful,
and if the state and centarl govt go by the false notion of vote banks, Kerala will become the next Kashmir – the ingredients are there; the fringe parties like SDPI/PDF (the chopper), PDP (Madani of serail blasts, currently under arrest by karnataka Govt — many of hisfollowers were found to have Pakistani connection including getting trained in the terrorist training camps in Pakistan) are courted by the major parties; although right now, they are all keeping a distance. We will see.

Most Christians, especially in the South and particularly in Kerala (who were converted 2000 years ago), believe in the Rig Veda saying “Ekam Sat Vipra bahuda Vadanti”..Keep in mind that Christians were there in Kerala coast before the term “Hindu” was coined in the vocabulary. People like George fFernandez, Antony etc are more “Hindu” (believing in Sanatan Dharma) than many Hindu cheaters like the ones who constructed the CWG stadium! Narayan Moorthy, in the first Ravi Mathai memorial lecture at IIM Ahmedabad (Ravi was the first founder/director of IIM Ahmedabad after an illustrious career at IIM Calcutta), equated Ravi Mathai to our great rishis/teachers like Agastya and Vasishta.

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I think the place should go to Hindus. If they feel so attached to that place then it should be given to them. I can understand, if the birth place of their god then its their right to pray there. Muslims have laks of masjids all of the India, where they can pray. Islam doesn’t say that you have to go and pray at one place.

And if hindus are really serious that, place is the birth place of their god then they should create a small place to worship. A grand temple will not do any thing but hurt the feelings of others, if that’s what you want then you are no better then Baber.

So the verdict should go in the favor of Hindus on the condition that, a small temple should be made that way all the people who are really want to worship can go and visit.

And muslims should accpet that, no point of arguing on this issue. Go to some other place and pray. Building a masjid not going to do any good to Islam and not building a majid not going to do any harm to Islam, so what is the point of argument?

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Six: Let the Air Force drop a bomb there from a plane and let’s start focusing on education, science, and technology.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 8:59 am

How about Air force Bomb your house instead… Your kind of ugly pseudo-secular SOB have destroyed India.

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Lot of hindus look to be angery, and i think to some extent I can understand their frustration. But blaming current day muslims to the things happend 1000 years ago is not right.

I do agree, that some wabhi sect of Islam are radical, and they are causing all kind of problem to us and to non-muslims also. And some radical hindus are doing same kind of damage.

I know common hindu is not like that, but these leaders are poising your minds with hate speaches.

And so many of you guys think, Islam spread in India by Baber, Tipu, sultans, that is all wrong. They were just kings like current day prime minster. Islam spread in India by sufi saits. When Muinuddīn Chishti (Ajmer) came to India, they were none to very less muslims in India. He came to india around 1200 where as Baber around 1525. That is 225 years after the saint came. And the way mughals came to India, the same way they ended (last king, prisoned and sent to rangoon).

Any ways coming back to current issue. If hindus think that, its a birth place of your god then please take it, if they ask me I would have soloved this issue 60 years ago. The congress played a game and now BJP is doing it.

And for muslims, if you are a true muslim then you would know what Islam is. It is just a place of worship, we can pray any where, to be honest we have enough masjids to pray not just in India but around the world. One place is not going to make any differance.

So let just finish this chapter and move on with our lives. India is consider one of the biggest powers in the world and we are still stuck on this small things.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 9:09 pm

I really respect the sentiments expressed by you but I don’t agree with you that Islam spread ONLY because of love..Islam spread using various tactics using punitive tax, Fear, Sword and sufiana love.
Let us accept the fact and move on. I don’t want to hold current muslims responsible for the crimes committed by invaders but there are many current day muslims who are proud of misdeeds committed by muslim invaders. What should we do about them? Either you purge them or we will do it.

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Amir Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

@Rajeev,

All I can say about them are they are stupids. They are millions of people who think Ravan was a Hero do we go and chase after them? And yes, you are right that some of the islam spread by sword and tax and other means, but trust me that number is very very less. Its like you go and buy a car, if you love the car you will drive every where but if you have been forced to buy the car, you will buy it but may not drive or drive once in a while.

And the current issue, I blame BJP for that. They used that to come to power. Hindus should have settle that issue out of the court and take the place, with out all these publicity and media. BJP came to power because of that, but look what happend. Communities are all divided for no use.

Still my suggestion is, just settle the case out of the court and give no media attention to it. Other wise some political party or leader (regardless of religou) will come out and say some thing stupid and people will be on the road chasing each other.

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Rajeev Reply:
September 25th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

Bashing BJP is mandatory for all muslims but fact of the matter is that it was congress who opened locks in Ayodhya to appease hindus who were pi$$ed off with congress (RAJIV GANDHI) for backtracking on Shah Bano verdict.

You should not forget that it was BJP that brought real development in India’s infrastructure but everything has been hijacked by congress courtesy pro-congress media.

Amir Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

I’m not bashing BJP, just telling you the fact. As you can read all my comments, I’m not biase regarding any issue. I openly said land should go or “go back” to hindus if they feel so strong about it.

My point is, if BJP could have solved this issue with out publiciding so much. Before 1992 no one (very few) people knew about it, but after that it became a world wide, yeah world wide topic. All I can see in that, it was a political thing, if it was religous then they should have quaitly sloved the issue.

And muslim population in India is 13% and in that half of them live below poverty line. Its hindus who bring congress back always not muslims. We just tilt where ever power is. No I do not forget what BJP has done good work for India. In their time only India become nuclear power. But the thing I do not understand is why Indians didn’t bring them back from almost 10 years.

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Summary Of Archaelogical Evidence:

1. The Babri structure had 14 pillars made of ‘Kasauti’ black stone with Hindu images. Also inside the Babri compound was a piece of a door jamb with images of ‘Mukut-dhari Dwarpal’ and ‘Devakanyas’. Iconographical evaluation of these pillars and the door jamb by Dr. S. P. Gupta (former Director of Allahabad Museum) showed that these belonged to a Hindu temple of the 11 th Century A.D. period when the Garhwal Kings of Kanauj ruled Ayodhya.

2. Between 1975 and 1980 Prof. B. B. Lal (the then Director General of Archaeological Survey of India) conducted an excavation behind the Babri structure and even touching it. The excavation showed pillar bases of burnt bricks (of the preexisting temple). The most beautiful pottery dated around 8 th-9th Century B.C. was also found.

3. On June 18 th 1992, when the ground near the Ram Janma Bhoomi was being levelled, at a depth of 12 ft, several beautifully carved buff sandstone objects were found. These objects included images of Vaishnav divinities with one ‘Chakrapurush’ sculpture also showing ‘Parashuram’ and ‘Balram’, an image of ‘Shiv-Parvati’ (largely broken) and many carved stones such as corner were terrecotta Hindu images of Kushan period (1 st to 3 rd Century A.D.).

These and other objects found during subsequent excavations during July 1992, were found to be members of a Hindu temple complex of about 11 th Century A.D. by a team of 8 eminent archaeologists and historians. The team included Dr. Y. D. Sharma, former Deputy Director General of Archaeological Survey of India, and Prof. B. R. Grover, Director of Indian Council for Historical Research.

4. The destruction of Babri structure on Dec. 6, 1992 revealed many archaeological remains which irrefutably prove that Mir Baqi had incorporated parts of the preexisting temple in the construction of the Babri mosque. The remains include a temple bell, several intricate and detailed carvings, an image of Vishnu, and several other Hindu images.

The principal amongst the findings however is a 2 ft wide by 4.5 ft long buff sandstone tablet ‘SHILA LEKH’ bearing an inscription in ‘Devanagari’ script and Sanskrit language. The ‘Shila lekh’ describes an ancient Ram Mandir existing at Ram Janma Bhoomi at least since the 12 th Century A.D. which was built by a Garhwal king Raja Govindachandra.

The 4 th line of this ‘Shila lekh’ specifically describes a temple of Lord Vishnu (Hari) at the ‘Janma Bhoomi Sthal’. The 15 th line describes it as a massive, magnificent temple dominating the landscape, and with steeples ’shikhar’ adorned with gold ‘Kalash’. The 17 th line specifically mentions the location as Ayodhya and the ‘Saket Mandal’, while the 19 th line mentions the ‘Vaman Avatar’ and then mentions Ram as the destroyer of evil Ravan. net, it was a temple! Brief History – 1528 thru 1934 :

As per historians, since 1528 there have been at least 76 armed conflict in which over 300,000 Hindus sacrificed their lives to restore the Ram Janma Bhoomi temple.

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fxsk Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

Whatever may be the findings from the excavation…bla..blaa.. we dont bother about that. we are in a democratic country. we should maintain the same status as of our Independence. we should not behave like some creul Mogul Kings of the past. we are in Civilized world. we are not animals. we should accept the Verdict whatever may be…

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sudan netrpaul Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

i am a socialist. Even if someone says Shri Ram did not exit at all i would stay neutral, because my activites today are not affected. But when it comes to my nation and my culture and not to speak of 120 crores but only few persons are left of that culture we should stand up and fight for raising the structure for which people have been laying down their lives. Whether USA threatens or Pakistan we should crush the antinationals with a heavy hand.

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shipra Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

i think there should be a school for poor children of all caste instead of temple or masjid

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DD Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

Mandir waheen pe banega.

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muslima Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

dnt worry abt us muslims…v r,v wil always b respctful 2 evry relign dt is respctful …bt cnt say it 4 u guys wu brk worship structres by dynamite….
go build temples or discos bt dare nt abuse muslims or islam….dnt need piece f dt land wic already had statue of mud!!

shashikant Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

Muslim should stay like minority in this country and should not challenge the majority Hindus.Otherwise they would be finished.Muslims should respect the religion of majority.

Dhawal Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 6:25 pm

If we are living in mordern world, then ban all muslims from visiting Kabba and tell all peoples both hindus and muslims to leave their faith and become mordern. I don’t see this happening, if today USA or any other super power occupy kabba and build church or something on top of it, will muslims loves it or accept it? With just a presence of USA officials in that place lot of terrorist organizations were formed and funded which explains all. Then how can person no matter what religion think that hindus who were claiming that place to be birth place of Ram even before British period could be told to stop claiming that? Only due to their claim research was conducted on that perticular place and archeological evidences were found by ASI and canadian arceologist (Radar search). Those who are taking those hindus for granted please stop doing so, all knows thousand of mandirs were distroyed but no one asking to rebuild those they are just asking for ayodhya since its like root of tree.

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sunil Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 8:46 am

stop the **** Atul. Every piece of small brick and stone can be interpreted and reinterpreted as evidence. Do you know what stood in the place 2000 years ago? 5000 years ago? a million years ago? idiots like you are ruining this country with their religious zeal. all these historical statistics are nothing but convenient conclusions to further your cause. shame on you. i hate to say i was born a Hindu. now, i renounce it with shame. what will you do if a temple is built on the land, will you go and purify yourself? your thoughts will and always remain the same. disturbing so many people, taking so many lives just for some stupid ideology. think of something bigger, something that helps everyone. wake up

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vineet Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

alas ! there are no angels like u in islamists & since u ‘hate to say that ur hindu ” u always have
this option of converting to islam and vandalise other religions places of worship. Ironically,
muslims are not apolgetic about there ancestors deeds.

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Srikant Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 10:54 pm

What a rabbish think u said. If someone will force u to leave ur native land. Would u leave it for peace. Then u r the second mahatma?

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Mahmood Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

You should gag your mouth, Sunil. Would you also look at the atrocities and problems arising out of Islam, or would you only go about Hindu bashing? If you are ashamed of being born a Hindu, then you have no secular point of view, because you hate a religion. This makes you a complete ****** and stupid for even preaching others to keep a calm.

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Lord Rama is no more in ayodhya…he is in our heart… part of our lifestyle… he is part of our culture… we follow him… His teachings are more important than the place where he was born. Whether you build temple or mosque, does not make any difference for me….

Jai Sri Ram!!!!

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KD Reply:
September 25th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

Unfortunately, this kind of mangnanimity is often misused by other religions.

How about destroying all Ram temples in that case? I hope you can see how such reasoning doesnt help with the problem at hand.

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sunil Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 8:47 am

its not about destroying a temple, and noone is destroying all temples. its about all the indians its affecting, and who don’t care if that temple is there or not. its only people like you who are messing this whole thing. idiot, wake up.

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Srikant Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

It’s not a idiot think. It’s a matter of legal ownership of that land.

Dina Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:47 am

Abey Dhakkan Sunil,

Its OK if you think we shouldn’t care anymore about the Ayodhya issue. But that doesn’t mean you will go on to say “you hate to say you were born hindu”. What does the Ayodhya issue has to do with your faith? I think its time for you to wake up and know who you are and what is your faith!! Stop posting idiotic comments and wake up and think about what big things you have done and are planning to do. You don’t have to shun your religion to do big things, and you don’t have to support Ram Temple in Ayodhya to be a Hindu. Wake up.

@Atul,

I suppose, the court would have considered all the details you have provided (even more) and then only would have come to a conclusion. Shall we abide by it?

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@Amir
“Islam doesn’t say that you have to go and pray at one place. Building a masjid not going to do any good to Islam and not building a masjid not going to do any harm to Islam, so what is the point of argument” …
“If hindus think that, its a birth place of your god then please take it, if
they ask me I would have soloved this issue 60 years ago” :

How sweat of you Amir But unfortunately Muslims are represented by Syed Shahabuddin who is stubborn and Hindus are represented by Singhal who is provocative. That is the whole point.

“But blaming current day muslims to the things happened 1000 years ago is not right.” :

Totally agree. I don’t want to make today’s Muslim responsible for what happened 100s of years ago and expect him to apologize for what Aurangzeb did (He is not their uncle. Current muslim may not even have converted to Islam then). Then why should they be blamed for the acts of their grandfather’s grandfather’s grandfather? (He may be, may not be.)

BUT…but… can I blame the community for their stubbornness in dealing with todays problems? (Be it Babri Masjid, be it accepting uniform civil code on the issues like polygamy and family planning) Can I blame them when they stone a local school because somebody burnt Koran 1000 miles ago? Let them never let that person (who burnt Koran) in our soil. I will also support them. But stoning our school for that? That doesn’t sound logical to me.

Agree, it is not Babar or Aurangzeb who are problems in the society. It is the stubbornness of people to acknowledge that, “THIS MASJID” was built more like a victory monument rather than as the place of worship (faith was not the centre of attention when it was built).

@Gopi

“Ekam Sat. Vipra Bahudaa Vadanti” : (“Ultimate truth” is one. People
tell (conceive) it in several ways)

That is the actual problem. The “ultimate truth” may be one. But our perceptions are different and one can’t understand (feel) the sentiments of other.

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Amir Reply:
September 24th, 2010 at 7:36 pm

@Vinay

Oh yeah I totally agree, with some people’s stuborness. To ask I’m agaist building a mosque close to 9/11 site.

Islam wouldn’t have spread so fast, if we have used hate and conningness and hurting other’s feeling. Its a fact it spread by love (but due some people like syed Shahabuddin, that is changing also).

And I’m very glade that you did not abuse Islam, but you talked bad about one or few individuals. Blame them, and matter of fact kick them if you think those people are causing the problem to whole socity but again blaming religiou or whole community is wrong. Same goes to hindus also. I have nothing agaist them or their religiou but few people who spread hate and try to poised common hindu man should be treated the same way as extrimest muslims.

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sam Reply:
September 25th, 2010 at 1:56 am

Peaceful islam in action

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DQ-35hzc8PQ4%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded#at=101

Islam has killed 80 million Hindus ..

currently 700 million Muslims trace their ancestry to Hindu.

In the hinstory of mankind, this is genocide to the highest degree.

after all this, islamic idiots can still claim “islam means peace”
yes it is peace as in cemetry for those unfortunate dead people.

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Jindal Reply:
September 25th, 2010 at 7:47 am

It is not just the genocide of 80 million Hindus, an estimated total of 270 million were killed at the hands of Islamic jihad and still counting: http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/tears-of-jihad/

I don’t understand why human beings (especially those on the Indian subcontinent) have such poor IQs that they just can’t put religion in the trashcan and move on~!

Amir Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

@Sam

I do agree with you that when invaders came, they have done lot of destruction to India. It is a fact which I agree, but again like I said in my privous post what they have done (500 years ago) current day muslim can’t pay for that? I do not think that is right, as we are (current day muslims) have nothing to do with them. Like if they have done any “if any” good work, we can’t take credit for that, so as things they have done bad, we can’t be resposible for it. If any one currently at this time period doing wrong then I think he should be punished, but again the person who is doing wrong not the whole community.

About your numbers, when invaders start to come, the populatioin of India was around 10 million, so your 80 million number is not accurate. And also Indian subcoontinent muslim population is around 350-400 million (India, pakistan, Bangladesh) so lets say all of them got converted still the figure is around 400 million, I’m not sure how you came up with number 700 million.

(I admit the facts, like invaders came to India and done lot of destructions but about 80 million hindus getting killed and 700 million muslims were hindus I do not think is right. That kind of statement will only misguide good hindus nothing else, unless that’s what your plan is)

Sam Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 10:22 am

>About your numbers, when invaders start to come, the populatioin of India was around 10 million, so your 80 million number is not accurate

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=889_1236976781

>I’m not sure how you came up with number 700 million.

Add Indonesia, parts of malaysia & Afghanistan to it.

YOGEET SHARMA Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 7:54 pm

Dear Amir, regarding that genocide figure…..could u plz tell me how did u arrive at the figure of 10 milion ? i dun think India use to conduct census back in 11th century eh ??

secondly, the genocide of Hindus started in 11TH Century with Gazni etc. ok. Now lets say, in 11th century Ghazni made 17 conquests of India and in each battle only 50000 men were killed …..wot figure does it amount to ?? its already a few millon.!!

are u forgetting that human birth rate was very high in those days and each family had more than 10 children ? so by the time Ghauri and Ghazni were thru with their invasions, already a crore of hindus must have died as in those days, there was man to man combats and fight was “on to death” …no injured survivors were carried home. one half of the army used to perish.

then came Qutubudin’s and Tughalaks and Babar’s and Aurangzeb’s and each one in his life span killed close to a crore ( atleast ) Hindus. And do you know that even the highly praised Akbar was involved in slaughtr of Hindus of whch our secularist historians dont want to talk about ?

now add up killings over a period of 7 centuries by different Muslim rulers…and the figure would be mind boggling. !

to this, also add those who were killed because of poverty etc caused due to land and ealth having been taken away by appointed landlors and local rulers. to this also add the suicides by women to save their chestity when their husbands died in wars.

As far as conversions are concerned, all the muslim invaders who came here and settled here had not brought their soldiers with families. Those men after wining wars forcefully took away millions of hindu gurls as concubines, and a huge chunk of Muslims of today’s India, pakistan, Bangladesh etc, owe their lineage to that modus operandi.

Rest of the Sub-Continent’s Muslims..including Mr Zia, are converts who were not brave enough to counter threat of “conversion or death” and chose to convert. This process too was a continues one for many centuries…so such a high figure.

And most importantly, it was not love for Islam that all the conversions took place. it was either to escape death or because non-Muslims had to pay Jazia etc and were subjected to a torturous life where as after conversion …the converted Hindu was not subjected to that kind of torture ….though he was still a third rate citizen and a lesser human being than the “pure” Muslims.

Gopi Thomas Reply:
September 25th, 2010 at 7:14 am

@Amir @Vinay

Obviously, 50 yrs ago, only a small percentage of people knew about Somnath or Gazni or Aurangazeb. However, with more people getting educated and mor epeople moving into “middle class”, the civilizational wounds are coming out in the open.

One one side, among some conservatives,a nd not-so conservatives, there is this rallying passion of “No more Somnath” ; to some extent it is like the Jewish call for ” no more holocaust”, On another side, rightfully so, theer is another group of people “how are we responsble for Somnath razing that happened many milleniums ago”.

Both are right. For one, the emergent India with all its promises makes them want to undo the historical injustices. The fear of this makes the other isolated (there are many self created isolation issues also).

The first group has to get out of that plane and look at what is happemning now. While Dawood Ibrahim is worm of a worm, is Suresh Kilmadi any better? In fact, isnt Kilmadi worse? So, let us focus on India, and bring specific individuals to taask, not whole groups. There are group isses, most of them quite severe; institutioanlized, and instigated by Mullahs affecting the Muslim community. We should be thankful that we have younsters like Syed, Mirza, Shoeb, Rahmat, and Amir talking about these. As I mentioned in an earlier response, the right Islam will emerge from India, absorbing its rich cultural heritage.

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Sam Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

Islam cannot accept any faults.

So there will be denial by Muslims about any historical violences or evil islamic acts.

That denial will only strengthen the re-awakening of Hindus.

It will only lead to a big confrontation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations
Like Huntington says, the Clash of civilizations is going on for hundreds of years.

It will go on for some more time between Vedic and Islamic civilazations.

Himanshu Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

Amir bhai,

you are right. The muslims of today cannot be held responsible for the actions of Babar. Yours is the voice of sanity, brother. We need more people like you in this country.

I am a Hindu, though pretty much an athiest and a very apolitical person. But I feel there should be a temple on that land.

Babar didn’t build that mosque out of religious reasons, but as a statement of power.

I would love it if the muslims of India offer to help build a temple on that land, and Hindus in return offer to build a mosque close by.

This way we will defeat a lot of vested interests – our politicians, Pakistan’s ISI, Saudi Arabia’s super extremist Wahabbis…

Indian Islam was never extremist – It was mostly Sufi. Our muslims sang and danced without being told it’s anti Islam.

In fact, I can safely say that Muslims all over the world need to learn from the muslims of India.

Inshallah, India shall rise above all this nonsense and emerge as a voice of sanity in this world.

Jai Ram ji ki!

Himanshu

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I just wanted to know if Hindu’s staying in Pakistan & Bangladesh have similar rights or not? Can they go to the court of law and demand as a right to rebuild temples that were destroyed in the respective countries? Even if they can, would they be allowed to live?

Now as a hypothetical case lets assume all the above was possible, the big question, would the decision be what its going to be in the Indian court of law? (As we all understand Congress’s vote-bank politics we all know that the Congress Party will ensure that the decision goes in favor of the muslims)

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Amir Reply:
September 26th, 2010 at 1:06 pm

@Sekhar,

Both Pakistan and Bangladesh are failed states. There are killing each other (almost like civil war). No law no nothing, so its no use of even talk about them. They may destroy them selfs. But other muslims countries like Maylashia, Indonasia, Singapore have big big beatiful Temples which you may not even imagin. In middleeast, they have a law about not building it, but there is huge huge hindu population there. And about congress, they are just a political party like any other, they play their cards by the situation. Once you enter in the politics, regardless of any party you become a “politician”.

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Sam Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 10:25 am

same old… denials
jihadist justifications..

for oppressing Hindus (aka Infidel, Kuffar’s)

Mohd invented the first apartheid in the whole world..

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Rajeev Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

Amir,
The malasian govt. openly sides with muslims and infact has been destroying Hindu temples. The attacks on hindu temples have increased in indonesia.
You must tell us why can’t hindus build a temple in Saudi Arabia. What is so sacred about Saudi Arabia that is far important than sacredness of Ayodhya?

The problem is that muslims are current day Fascist and nazis. They deny equal rights to minorities in their countries but bomb non-muslim countries to get equal (or more) rights. This can not go on forever.

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Sam Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 1:18 pm

>You must tell us why can’t hindus build a temple in Saudi Arabia. What is so sacred about Saudi Arabia that is far important than sacredness of Ayodhya?

Go read Koran or translations.

Islam is a supremacist religion.
They think they are pure and everyone else is “unclean”

they cannot have any other “unclean” religions.

Mohd is the originator of religious apartheid on a world wide scale…

Rahmath Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

ok sam go build your temple in kaaba…No porblem…enough????

Rahmath Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

but will my saying so make any difference, will any indian saying so make any difference. it wont because its in Saudi Arabia….Concenterate in Problems in India please, otherwise there is no difference between you and your counterparts in muslim community

bhrigu Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

@rajeev,

I dont understand what do u want to convey here …

I think you should re read your comments once more.

1) .why a Muslim in india should bother about the things done by Malasiyan govt

2.) Why a Muslim or Indian as whole should be concerned about the policies set in some other country (ex. Saudi in your commnet)… many things which are banned in india are not banned in Saudi, and vice versa…so what ,,,, same is true for any other country ..

3.)Shame on you for this line ::: “equal rights to minorities in their countries “…
which country do indian Muslims belong : They belong to India not to any other XYZ country… … and if you have any doubt on it then please go and see some doctor…

Nitesh Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 10:29 am

There is a reason why Pakistan and Bangladesh are a failed states… Look at the race composition and that answers it all… About 3 years ago, i had read somewhere that pakistan is going to implode… kill itself to most extent… which will trigger to kill the rest of it due to Shia-Sunni conflict… Down with Pakistan… Long Live Every Other Country (Need not say though!!!).

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umang Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 11:40 am

@Sam
Do you want to follow Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and meet their fate. Do you want a monarchy or Indian army taking control over the government? Do you want to go back to living as in ancient times?
Do you want India to be as fanatic about Hinduism as Pakistan is about Islam and meet their fate?
I am grateful to India’s secular constitution for saving us from meeting Pakistan’s fate.

@Amir
Hope everyone thinks the way you do.

We are the victims of British politics

The the Mandir –Masjid dispute can be solved amicably in light of Indus Valley civilization, which was scientifically developed in all respect. To break the cultural unity and integrity of India, the British rulers have divided the Indians into Hindu and Muslim on the name of faith. Accordingly the constitution was prepared in 1935 by the British Govt. The same bifurcation, we have accepted, where every faith has a constitutional right. The same theme has been adopted in our constitution. The court will follow the same. Whatever will be the decision? It will hurt the sentiments of any one, and the cyclone of faith is ready to ruin the country again after 1947.

We have got the time to solve the problem. It a fact that to spread their faith, the invaders have ruined the temples and tried to destroy the culture of India. The British Govt. has given it a turn and divided the Indians into Hindu and Muslim. Now we are free to fight and to blame each other.

Although the description of the temple is not there in the Rig-Veda, from where the concept of God and spiritualism came into the existence. Hence swami Dayanand saraswati has not advocated the temple and idol worship.

Looking to the fact that many temples have been destroyed and Birth place of Ram is Ayodhya. According to Holy Quraan the construction of mosque at disputed site is not valid.

Looking to the facts, if we want to solve the problem than first we are Indian, than the mosque or temple is synonym, the place for prayer, which can unite the Indians.

The faith and belief in a God is a sensitive inherent quality of the human-beings. In India it has been preached that God is within you. He is not different from you. Hence Spiritual independence is there in India from time immemorial. God is present every where, hence polytheism is there. It is a scientific fact and our cultural heritage from time immemorial, through it only the problem can be solved.

In the Rigveda there is no description of temple, hence swami Dayanand saraswati has not advocated the idol worship, and in Holy Quraan, the construction of the Mosque is not valid at disputed site. With the construction of the infrastructure on the Ram Janm Bhumi, it became disputed from very beginning. Hence its construction was not valid and its demolition is also wrong. Both the instances are, due to the ignorance of India’s cultural heritage. We all should not persist on any one particular aspect and Court should declare the land as National heritage.

it is our internal matter. Hence both the faith should come forward for peace and consensus over the issue.

It was the foreign invaders, they have advocated that God is above all, his commandments should be followed. It has opened the door for the conflict on the name of faith and belief. The foreigners have ruled on the name of God. Kaydeazam Jinnah has used the same and won the race of ruler, he became the president of Pakistan. India has faced the consequences of this in 1947, it was the cyclone of division, and now the cyclone of faith and belief. It should be checked with scientific evidences of the God and Soul. All religious scriptures are saying one and the same thing.

The Mandir – Masjid conflict is at Ayodhya, but it has influenced the people, through out India and abroad on the name of faith and belief. It is the matter of politics now more than the faith and belief, because the people are spiritually sentimental. The innocent public do not know that God is within them and present every where. He is not different from us.

The quest of creation is quest of human mind from dawn of civilization on the earth.The questions have been raised in Rigveda also and its scientific answers have been given scientifically. It is the scientific base of all religion.
Who hath beheld him as he sprang to being, seen how the boneless One supports the bony?
Where is the blood of earth, the life, the spirit? Who may approach the man who knows, to ask it ÿg. 1-164-4
I. Who is the supporter, creator? Who has seen him, when he first came into being?
In this reference a Physicist Stephan Hawking in his book has said that God has not created the Creation? The Creation came into the existence under the physical laws of Gravitational force from zero. No religion can give the answer. Only on the name of faith they can not give the answer.
The modern thinkers known as Risis, Paigambar, and Awtar have traced the same thing symbolically in their own way in their language for the guidance of the common people. It can be grasped only after having the full knowledge of the creation. The modern Science is based on the actual evidences, hence the Scientists have denied the existence of God and Soul.
The religious scriptures are sayng one and the same thing, which Science is explaining with scientific evidences.

The creation came into the existence from a fundamental enrgy, under the laws of Thrmodynamics Rigveda 10-90-1-4, to whom the Scientists call it as Gravitational force. The same is the Brahma or Universal Soul of Upnishad, The God of Bible, The Allah of Holy Quraan, and Ahurmazda of Zend awesta. It has been described as the creator and omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God. The same is the God and Soul. He is not different with different names.

The creation came into the existence from the single fundamental energy in successive steps, it has been expressed by the seven days, where one day of God is equal to one thousand years. It means the creation came into the existence with successive steps with evolution. The fundamental energy is involve in every activity of the nature, hence it has been said that God has created the nature, God is working through the nature.
The fundamental energy, known as Gravitational force is God and Soul. It has been described as one God, and the components of the creation came into the existence through energy transformation of it, it has been described as polytheism – Bahudeovad.

The building block of the creation is Atom and the building block of the living-beings is DNA Rigveda 4-58 -1,2,3
The life on the earth has evolved from the single cell, the consciousness in the first cell has been appeared with the movement of the sap in the cell body. It has maintained its continuity through cell division. The DNA regulate the life cycle with physical development and fate in life with cell division. It has been expressed symbolically by all the religious scriptures, and their source is Rigvedic Science. Its evidences are in Indus Valley, which was a scientifically developed civilization in all respect.

The main aim of the religion and spiritualism is the ethical teachings, that one has to face the consequences of his deeds in life. It is a scientific fact that the DNA is immortal and universally present in the living-beings. It records the deeds of a individual person in its language code. The code is different for all individuals, just like the DNA is different for all individuals, in the same fashion the word and thought energy are imperishable, they remain in the universe.

In the womb, with the development of first embryonal cell, the DNA also divide. With the first division of the DNA, a language code appears on the DNA. The code is specific identity of a person concern, this code is activated by the imperishable word- thought energy of a individual person. Which is moving in the universe at low frequency. It persist in the universe even after the death of the physical body. The code on the DNA and the thought energy of a particular person are complimentary with each other. As soon as the first code appear on the DNA, the imperishable thought energy moving in the universe activate the language code on the DNA. It is according to the mentality of a person concern.

The physical development of the body is as per the hereditary characters of DNA and language open on the DNA, decides the fate of the person concern. Hence it has been said that one has to face the consequences of his deeds, symbolically through hell and heaven. It is as per the deeds of his previous birth. It is known as fate or Prarabdh karma. Hence even the time twins, have different fate.

The people of the Indian sub continent are originally belongs to scientifically developed Indus Valley civilization. It is a matter of pride and honour for the people of Indian subcontinent. All should come forward for the consensus over the issue. Till consensus is not there, the land should be declared as the National heritage.

The central Govt. should look into the matter in the interest of the nation.

Dr.C.P.Trivedi

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YOGEET SHARMA Reply:
September 27th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

Dr. Trevidi, you are missing woods for the trees here. The issue is neither the definition or existence , non-existence of god. It is about an act of violence against the psyche of a whole nation and its religious beliefs and the self-respect and dignity of a huge community.

If i slap you or rape you daughter, would you bury yourself in chapters of rig veda to find out how you should react and whether or not you should react ?

For all the knowledge you seem to possess, tell me, why did Babar order the destruction of Ram Janambhoomi temple and all the other temples ? And not just that, he “capped” that place with a Masjid too . Why ?

Sir, it was to perpetually insult a huge population and demoralize them. It was the most cruel, sadistic and psychopathic thing that anybody could ever do and these things do have an effect on human psyche. You cant wish away such things. Can the so called “secularists” of India, forget Babri destruction ?

Nobody is saying that “RAM” needs this temple. Ram is our god and yes he lives in our souls. No mandir’ can please or displease Lord Ram. But all the same, to bow down in front of a gross injustice and not to talk about its undoing is the worst thing that one can do as a wise human being.

It would had been very nice had all Hindus tried to impress upon Indian Muslims the ugly truth of Babri Masjid and implore them to let it go. However, just because a political party derived benefit out of this movement, all the other political parties decided to oppose the Hindu cause and the media, either because it got bribed by money-rich Congress, or because of the need to pursue political correctness and because of a desire to be dubbed as “intellectuals’ , decided to tow the “offbeat’ line of Muslim appeasement and pseudo secularism….thus hurting the Mandir cause.

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shan Reply:
September 28th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

@Sharma, not surprised by your comments, after all your surname is sharma. just to enlighten you Ram doesn’t carry much currency beyond COW BELT. In fact in one of the great epics written in modern India called MEGHNAD BADH KABYA , by one of the greatest poet of India Michael Mudhusudhan Dutt .i cannot repeat what I wrote in an earlier blog about the gist of that epic, because it was swiftly removed by the moderator. The point is if sangh parivar politely approached and explained , to the leaders of quom , they may have acheived their goal. but they were more interested in a confrontation. Though I will concede The whole of muslim quom being led by a group of pig(oops) headed leaders , I am not sure about their sagacity. One thing I am absolutely sure about RATIONALITY DOESN’T PLAY ANY ROLE IN THEIR THINKIKNG PROCESS

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Deepak Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

Yogit,

I could not avoid getting involved into this great discussion and while I respect your self esteem and your views I have certain reservations.

What Mughal/Muslim invaders did centuries ago was shameful but is it rational to seek justice for the same now? Muslims invaded India and “hurt the psyche of whole nation” centuries ago and some people (read orthodox Hindu and Muslim leaders) are perpetrating the same crime by instigating the pent up but immature sentiments today.
Yes it was indeed deplorable what was done to Hindus during the Muslim invasion but is it justifiable to wage the war against Muslims of today because of that? Wouldn’t it be akin to hurting the “psyche of nation” as Muslims are now an integral part of India?
What Babar did by destructing the Ram Janmbhoomi Temple, some orthodox/selfish Hindus repeated by destructing the Babri Masjid-Hurting the psyche of nation- and it is for all to see what they have been able to achieve? Years of years of discussion, riots, bloodshed and hatred-not to mention the wastage of public money which could have been used for the general development of area. By seeking justice against something which we barely remember and for which we have to rely upon text books and historical evidences just to assert something we are not utilizing the energies and focus and the money where it should be utilized. Ayodhaya, for instance, should be known for its spiritual and religious teachings and history and architecture, but alas it is regarded as the root of this contention. And we, by constantly yelling for justice are only ensuring that it would be known only for all the wrong reasons for some time to come.

In an organized and modern society such matters should have been relayed to court for a verdict before taking it on oneself to destroy the mosque to avenge the destruction of a temple. That was not done because the motive was not to seek justice but votes of some even more deplorable people. The Mosque, however may it have been built in history, once built, was the property of a nation first, a monument of historical importance second and a place of worship third. It is unfortunate all this is other way round.

And what would have been nice is not to IMPRESS the “truth” on Muslims but to make them REALIZE the “truth” and that can’t certainly be done by force or violence but only by spreading knowledge AND the “cause” should not be MANDIR or MASJID but a nation built on trust and respect and the fact that we all are human beings first and Hindus and Muslims later.

If one tries It is not always difficult to see a bigger picture….. And hope floats

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Sunil Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:53 pm

I think you are greatest intellectual than Lord Ram. You should be their to tell the people not to build the temple because it was not written in rig-Veda. And muslims follow their religion strictly that no masjid where idol is worshiped. So perhaps they did not destroy the temple it was actually dident exist at all. And about indus vally lecture nobody cares about it if they care they did not do this much destruction to this great civilization. You think worshiping idol is wrong but it is our way of offerings prayer in front of god. And it is supreme proof that our gods did actually in real incarnated on earth in human beings. Rig-Veda is the creation of vedic culture and idol was worshiped by people long ago from that period of rig-veda. We have these many gods we have to have idols and special temples to worship different gods its our culture that have many gods. Peoples believes that idols are the real place of god in Hinduism because it is not written in one vedic texts it doesent chang its meaning, its greatness and peoples beliefs. One more thing because it was not written in rig-veda about idol worshiping it did not give license to destroy someones spiritual places.

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Pallabit Mishra Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:31 pm

Hi all. The mentality of common man won’t change after the verdict. It only will bring a sense of Hindu-led victory over Muslims or vice-versa. Those ******* Hindus who claim that it’s their victory over other’s, I bet most of them will not even go to Ayodhya once ever. I, a Brahmin by birth, appeal my countrymen to respect their milk-man or servant or daily vendor- be he a Muslim or Hindu. Thanx…

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The faith of Hindus must be respected by every religion. Moghuls looted the temple before building the mosque. Today’s Islam must recognise it start to respect Hindus as well before every religion starts to hate Islam. Today, people do hate Islam and all muslims are responsible for earning a bad name. There may be very little bad Islamic elements that are doing the wrong things but bad name is for the whole of Islam. All muslims must stand up and restore the beauty of their religion and not let the cruelty be labelled as.

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muslima Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

dnt worry abt muslims,,,v vl ,v r n vl always b as respectful as v can b,,,bt nly 2 religions wic actually r respctful!!!
js dt …maintain decorum,,,celebrate majority,,,,go build temple or discos bt dare nt abuse muslims or islam!

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Humera Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 3:00 am

Much rather the Judiciary decide than the Politicians… and a fair decision would be for that entire Land to be declared a Forest reserve for Tiger Conservation … we are down to 1300 Tigers after all!!! with a strict enforcement of no Masjid / Mandir on that land ever after.

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this is all confusion created by dragging the story. if all remember how we got freedom.. it was by peace, but resulting partition n lifetime prepaid unrest + economic issues.

the concept of religion has to be clear and accepting other faiths.. even if we keep aside the past incidents of India. none of indians have stood together on this concept. moreover religions of monotheism always preach of one god but non-acceptance or non-coexistence of other faiths. this is just not justifiable.

so whatever be the verdict, there is definite unrest to happen.

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Let us admit a fact. As Hindus we are too weak to fight for Ram Janma Bhoo,i. We are living in a predominantly Muslim world. we cannot swim against the tide and current. So let’s accept the fact that Muslims should be allowed to build their Mosque and offer prayers at the birth place of Shri Ram. In otday’s world Islam is far stronger than Hinduis. In all our struggles against Islam we have always been the losers. Let us accept our loss with serenity. We do not have a genuine Hindu lea\der who can champrion the cause of Hindus. One more thing if we are too hard with the Indian Muslims the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis will not tolerate it wth folded arms.

So best thing to happen is let the children of Allah have their ways. Insha Allah

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Guys…have you ever wondered……..what does a mosque or a temple have to do with a rickshaw waala, a begger, a majdoor….nothing……this is all done by dirty politicians…….

“Sabko ladao…aur apna khao”

I live in Ayodhya itself….we don’t have road here….no basic aminities etc..

This is one of the worst places to live in……..don’t you think we should move for the betterment of places rather than fighting for the places……

I wish court will order to make a college or stadium at this place……

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An Indian Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 8:18 pm

Well said Tarun !!! This is the fact .. I was LOL going through this entire thread.. most of the indians (reagardless of religion) still dont have brains..

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shan Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:51 am

@Tarun, Hats off , outstanding,

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many old civilization die in course of time..but hinduism come above all resistance.i like amir view.i respect such people.m waiting 4 court decision.accept watever it is.v lost to mughals bcz of internal fight.nw v lose to china 4 same reason.

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Guys, for more than 7 centuries Muslims and nearly 2 centuries Britishers have ruled us and our ancestors where so strong in there beliefs that they followed Hinduism strongly. But the real challenge is now where the mass Hindus getting converted in to Christians and Muslims. The so called leaders to save there vote banks taking no actions against these and instead they are converted (Rajshekar Reddy former AP CM). The Minorities (Muslims and Christians) will one day become the majorities and the Hindus will be the minorities.
We need a leader who can speak for hindus and not to save the vote bank and lead the Hindustan.
we cannot completely blame the leaders altogether, Its also become each ones individual responsibility to teach the next generation about the greatness of Hinduism and save our Culture.

Please save Hinduism and Stop the conversion. Proud to be a Hindu and Hindustani
Jai hind

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1. The site should be either termed as “disputed” and not given to either parties
2. Govt should build a Universal Religion Center as both religions need this.

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Hi my friends,

According to scientists average life span of human is 65 -70 years… God gave us such a grace to live in this beautiful earth..But nowadays human made it similar to hell…
Why can’t we enjoy this life instead of hating others…why we are distinguishing religions, caste ,language ..Like we are believing in our religion why cant we give others the right to choose their religion.
Human has a special brain when compared to remaining animals..Then why we are behaving worst than animals..All the religions in this world is against killing innocent people..Then who are the
People doing all these..Think my friends ….They are using the religion name for escaping from their horrible activities..We have to recognize these people who are playing this game
For their wealth and political growth..Understand my friends they are utilizing our blood and flesh for their money….They are vultures..They never go in to the battle field…They
Will send the poor people in india those who don’t have education and let them fight…They will enjoy the battles of bloodshed and gain wealth or political gain from that… We have
To identify such wolfs and vultures who want to suck our blood and oppose them…you know my friends 99 percent of people from every religion is so good…But due to remaining
One percent we all going to be destroyed . Just think yourself whether you are in that 99% or remaining..If you are realizing that you are in the 1% you are poisonous than snakes..We don’t allow
them to do so….We all know we were so strong in 1947..At that time people loved each other irrespective of religion, caste, language..
If we fought each other we will lose such a strength and anyone outside our country can easily beat us .. If all Indians stand together every other country will become nothing
In front of the 100 crore Indians..All people will die……Its a fact…But everybody likes to die without pain. If you want to live peacefully you should be merciful to others…please don’t waste your
time by hating others…Instead love them..Our god likes such people who loves others than who hates others…. Fight against the evils who let us fight in the name of religion, caste ,language
And watches the bloodshed and gains wealth and power..
Actually only two religions in this world……… One is “good” and another is “bad” .. Please believe in the religion good not only for your sake for your family for your relatives for your friends for
your neighbours for your colleagues more over for all the people in this world….. If you thinks that you are in wrong path please relieve from that and join with us than living as a criminal……..
ENJOY YOUR LIFE THAN LIVING LIKE A CRIMINAL………….AND DON’T FORGET TO FORWARD THIS TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS TO BUILD A STRONG COUNTRY THAT GIVING US FOOD AND SHELTER.

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mobocracy or democracy
kabzaa yaa kanoon

The point indians will focus on : Is it all about kabza or is there a rule of law. what is the ground reality. can mobocracy settle matters If so, why have laws or courts ? Choice : Rule of Law or mobs led by Babu Bajrangis.

The above argument is sound, since this is a title suit and judgments cannot be made hostage to consequences as Soli Sorabjee rightly said.

But this is a rarest of the rare cases.. Post 1992 demolition 7,000 were killed 99% casualties were Muslim. A challenge to the Constitution of India was mounted using Ram as pretext. Planners of this crime targeted the Constitution of India and showed how weak it was on the ground.

Muslims would win this case, as it is a strong case. However emotions have got involved. After getting Legal Victory it would be advisable if muslim leadership gather and gift this won-over land to the Hindu Community. In fact, go further and assist Hindus in building a Ram Temple.

This will pull the sting out of the RSS BJP VHP hate-bank politics. Infact the saffron cobra will become a plastic snake. Whoever loses this suit is the REAL winner. Muslims will win 2 acres of land (on paper, as possession which is 9 points in law out of 10 will remain with the make-shift temple !) This phyrric legal victory will ignite a sense of frustration / denial among Hindus. It will unite Hindus like nothing else, and BJP/VHP can manipulate this. A Hate Yatra led by Narendra Modi still has potential for violence.

How to circumvent Hate-Bank Politics ? Give them what they want. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win the war.
Emotional Intelligence – Baazigar ishtyle !
In order to possess, what you do not possess ; You must go by way of dis-possession. In order to be what you are not., You must go thru the way in which you are not (TS Eliot)., or let me quote Rumi, the great saint of Konia:
Kaaba : Buniyaad-e-Khalil-e-Aazar Ast
Dil : Guzargaah-e-Jaleel-e-Akbar Ast
Dil badast-aawar Kay Haj-e-Akbar Ast
Azz Hazaar`aan Kaaba., Yak Dil Behtar Ast
(Rumi).

(Rough Tr : Kaabah is a structure built by Ibrahim “Khalil-Allah” (Friend of Allah) son of Azar; But the heart is a road on which the God Lord Allah himself walks ! Take control of the “heart” cuz it is more than Haj-e-Akbar., as One heart is superior to thousands of Kabas !)

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Hi there,
By the way, y this discussion is all about.
Its our place and we will build Sri Ram’s Temple.
Thats it. No need to prove anything to anyone.
Jai Sri Ram!!!!

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Ram is our god .I do agree with you that when invaders came, they have done lot of destruction to India. It is a fact which I agree, but again like I said in my privous post what they have done (500 years ago) current day muslim can’t pay for that? I do not think that is right, as we are (current day muslims) have nothing to do with them. Like if they have done any “if any” good work, we can’t take credit for that, so as things they have done bad, we can’t be resposible for it. so all is well it is depend on all over india tragedy .

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just a small thought … till 1855 both muslims and hindus worshipped in the same temple in ayodya . why can’t it be done again . if the people who lived in 1855 could live in harmony and worship in the same place why cant we 21st century idiots build a mosque and temple at the same place and make it as a symbol of unity …

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I totally agree with Tarun. Building a neutral structure like a Hospital or college would be a best idea to solve this problem. So it makes a no loose no win situation for both the sides.

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Sunil the people like you are dangerous than the muslims because you dont know the past exactly , you only read books of some english books want go to america and dont care about those hindus who suffered at that time, the hindu womans who are raped and slaved. You are like a so called secular parties and news channels who think that the demolition was shameful and the demolition of 10000 temples is not shameful. With people like you born in this religion who can easily sold out in for money or by some great thoughts that islam has all good things, it does not harm anybody. We a religion once upon time covering from afghanistan to indonesia. The prosperous, peaceful, intellectual i am not saying we are the only good people but we had not attack anybody all these years. And i think what ever has happened to our ancestors in past which in not is not good and after all that we dont have right to ask our own thing. This is like suffering we are born to suffer from the muslims and dont even say a word about it. Daily i heard in muslim countries the remaining hivdus targeted did any one has answer about it? Dont simply say that the countries are failed states. The government is not responsible for atrocities on hindus it is minds of so called peaceful people who say that islam is purest, it is the greatest religion. If it a greatest religion then why cant people wishfully accept it? why the forceful conversion happened? why the womans are raped and why the temples are burned? In contries that runs effectively and which are not failed state their also hindus are feeling the heat. The religion which permits in the mane of jihad and religions most holy standing stone is supporting it is not great religion. The religion which has so much blood on its character how you say this is peaceful. And here in india the secular people are debating about condition of muslim community as left out from prosperous india. They are saying minority is under threat. The muslims are no more minority in this country. And when they grow in numbers thay join hands wiht other muslim countrys. And always we here that muslims suffered in this riot, muslims suffered in that riot. After all this past destruction to hindus they only getting the emotional touch from channels, the witch western world and the congress as if that they dident do anything. Their is nobody who cares for hindus.

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@Dronacharya

U completely go with you. I would suggest my muslim brothers to gift the land to our Hindu brothers if we won the case. Our aim must be to build a strong and united India where our generation would live in peace and harmony.

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All persons in favour of Babri must leave this country and go to Pakistan.

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Many psedo-secularists here repeatedly saying that today’s muslims are not responsible for the mistakes done by moghals. If that is so..why today’s muslims are fighting for babri masjid? Muslims are just muslims..time may change ..the remained as they were before…. The real threat to hindu community is not just muslims..but the coward psedo secular minded hindu ********….

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The country should move on instead of entangling itself over issues like this.More time and money should be spent to ensure that every Indian be it a Hindu,Muslim,Christian or Sikh gets food,education,shelter as matter of right.The image of a country which is viewed as very diverse and yet united should not be altered and distorted.Every citizen should rise to the occasion and give a strong message to the world that we are one and we would guard and protect our people be it a Hindu or a Muslim,a christian or Sikh and that we do not require any external intervention

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In history and in present also, everybody utilized the oppertunity they got. Mughals ruled Hindu because they were powerful. Y can’t Hindus utilize the same oppertunity in India Now. (As they are more in numbers). Is it because Democracy in India? Just wanted to know.

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In India people are free to follow and pray the GOD they feel right ,and believe me people who really love their GOD never come to riots and all things .these things are all due to these **** politicians and yes we are also responsible for them ,cuse we people who talk so gud ,do not go to vote .
It is the time that we should realize if we will continue to fight for all these small things ,the only one gona get profit is our **** politicians

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IT IS ADDRESED TO ALL,
IN 8TH CENTURY INDIA HAD BECOME 80% BUDDHIST COUNTRY INCLUDING EMPEROR ASHOKA HIMSELF!THAT INDIA WAS CALLED ‘AKHAND BHARATH’ INCLUDING ALL OF SOUTH EAST ASIA.BUT TO THIS DATE HOW MANY OF U SEE BUDDHISTS AS YOUR NEIGHBOURS?ADI SHANKARACHARYA BEFORE DYING AT THE AGE OF JUST 32 YRS,WITHOUT EVEN A HAIR PIN IN HIS HAND CONVINCINGLY BROUGHT BACK ALL HINDUS BACK TO HINDUISM ROAMING ALL OVER PRESENT CALLED INDIAN PREMISES.HAD HE SURVIVED LONGER U COULD HAVE HARDLY SEEN A NEIGHBOURING COUNTRY FOLLOWING BUDDHISM LIKE CHINA & SRI LANKA!BUT ISLAM IS OMNIPRESENT NOW!BELIEVE!THEY WENT TO ALL HINDUS TOOK THEM IN THEIR LAP,LIKE A MOTHER THEY CONVINCED & CHANGED THEIR RELIGION!NO BLOOD WAS SHED & ONLY BY FEEDING MILK THEY MUST HAVE CONVERTED ALL!IS THIS POSSIBLE?TRAGEDY OF THE SCENE IS NO MUSLIMS IN CURRENT INDIA WERE MUSLIMS BY THEIR ROOT!
MOREOVER TODAYS MUSLIMS NEED NOT BOTHER TO LODGE A PROTEST AGAINST HARM TO THEM AS SOME OF SO CALLED SECULAR HINDUS OF TODAY ARE ALREADY THERE TO RISE THEIR VOICES FOR MUSLIMS WITHOUT THEM ASKING A FAVOUR!CAN U EVER IMAGINE A SINGLE MUSLIM POSTING A QUOTE IN THIS BLOG THAT RAMA MANDIR IS ONLY TO BE BUILT IN AYODHYA?
WHEN WE TALK OF A SECULAR NATION LETS IMPLY IT TO ALL. I WISH TO FORE SEE IT A DAY WHEN EVEN MUSLIMS TALK IN FAVOUR OF RAM MANDIR AS SOME HINDUS INSIST A MOSQE NEEDS TO BE RE BUILT THERE!CAN THIS HAPPEN AT ALL?
MY GENUINE QUESTION IS: KINDLY GET ME A SINGLE PROOF THAT OTHER THAN HINDUISM,WAS ISLASM OR CHRISTIANITY OR BUDDISM WAS EXHISTING IN INDIA AT THE EARLIEST DATE?
IF U CAN PROVE THAT OTHER RELIGIONS WERE NOT INVADED & BROUGHT INSIDE INDIA & THEY WERE EXHISTING PRIOR HINDUISM,I ADMIT THAT BEFORE RAMA MANDIR A MASJID WAS ALREADY EXHISTING IN AYODHYA!

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Because of this bullshit happening on 29th, we will have to work on Saturday to compensate for the off. Do whatever with the piece of land, but let the common people be at peace!

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I dont wanna trigger any disputes or arguments as we have enough and more of it. Any way to those who ditch Hinduism , i would like them to look into the world wide perspective towards Hinduism in this 21st century. BBC , CNN and other international news agencies have been publishing articles and surveys which clearly shows that in the years to come American civilization (Western civilization to be precise) will be converting into Hindu Civilization. This does not mean that they will start worshiping Hindu deities or build temples in whole America , but that they are following the spiritual and ritual ideologies which Hinduism provides. BBC also released a news stating that just telling the mantra OHM for 10 minutes a day , rejuvenates the body with a positive energy .
I am not saying that its because Hinduism have magic , but each and every rituals and mantras in the Hindu civilization means only one thing – Loka samastha sughino bhavanthu. Hindus have been called as pagan , crazy people because we worship trees , wind , water , fire and bow in front of stone deities , but have those abusers thought why its advised to do so in the Hindu concepts ??? Its our tribute to the nature for providing us with food , water and shelter . The three basic concepts of living .
In one of the posts i read about Islam civilization spreading because of love and not using force or utilizing the others weakness. I would ask the person who posted it , do u urself honestly believe that ??? Yah i agree that islam is spreading through love , but just want to rename it as Love Jihad. Wooing poor illiterate girls , making them elope with an islam guy , then converting her into islam , converting her family to islam threatening that otherwise he will ditch her and finally after every one in her family is converted , getting Thalak . So easy rght to spread the civilization through love ????

The problem with the Hindu civilization is that we are not united. When a problem arises in any other civilization , they all stand unite , but when a tone is thrown on Hindus , we divide and tries to find a reason for getting thrown by the stone. Its compulsory that Christians should go to church on Sundays , its compulsory that Islams should go to mosque on Fridays , and what about Hindus ???? And if any one asks a Hindu to visit a temple occasionally or to participate in religious gatherings , he becomes a hindu extremist.

Now about the Ayodhya issue , no one argues that Ayodhya is the birth place of Shri Ram. ( If u disagrees then u are stating that all the historians world wide are wrong and fools) . More over all evidences points that there had been a beautiful temple in the place where Babri Masjid (actually known as Jenmsthan Mosque) was situated. So it aint rocket science to understand that Moghuls destroyed the temple , looted it , burnt it round and then used its pillars to be the holding pillars of the new monument , which they made as their victory symbol. Hindu’s at that time didnt had the firepower to reinstate the temple. After the moghuls came the British , still no power in Hindu’s hands to reinstate the temple. But Hindu’s started a law suit for the rght of worship in Ayodhya , as a matter of which a small platform was made outside the monument for hindu devotees. After independence , laws were made and renewed , prohibiting muslims from entering the Jenmsthan area , making of a small shrine , then opening it to public worship. All these time the so called Babri Masjid lovers didnt had any objection , neither did they even wanted the rghts to visit and do rituals in the so called mosque of theirs . And in late 1980’s when Hindus gathered the strength to reinstate the original temple , decided that its time to do it and thus the destruction took place in 1990. Atleast for once the Hindus united for a common cause , because the so called hindutva party came into power in the Parliament in the following elections only because in their manifesto they promised to make a temple in Ayodhya. BJP had nothing else to ask vote for at that time , a temple in Ayodhya is the matter of self respect for the majority of the Hindus in India . No one can say that ” i am a hindu and i dont mind even if a temple is not made in Ayodhya” . U may not be minding , but the majority of the Hindus want a temple to be reinstated in Ayodhya and the election results were evident. Now the political dramas started . New lovers popped up for the Babri Masjid. A place where no religious functions of islam were held became an auspicious mosque by one night. some even said that they offered prayers in Babri masjid even in December 5th , when in reality since 1950’s no religious functions of islams were held there.

So according to me India may be a democratic country , but the civilization in India is still Hindu civilization and Hindu demands a Temple to be rebuilt in Ayodhya. Any community which honors other community must let a temple to be made in Ayodhya as its the sacred place of birth of one of the most worshiped Hindu deity Shri Ram. When we question the authenticity of the temple we are questioning the authenticity of Hinduism and its belief.

Any way i dont feel that a judicial verdict is gonna make any difference in the issue , as either party will go for an appeal. If the verdict favors Hindus then congress will start playing its political cards , using the islam community as a mask to create communal unrest , making a communal riot so that they can blame BJP and RSS for the massacre which might take place and then positioning themselves as ambassadors of peace. If the verdict favors Islam , then Congress will act as they are the ones who made the verdict in favor of muslims , eyeing the vote bank . The communist parties will blame both congress and BJP for the verdict , even though they dont realize who won , because they just have to make some press comments . Lalu Prasad and team would be ready with witty comments and if the verdict favors Muslims then he may ask muslims to start demolishing other temples also because judiciary is in our hands na

Any way sorry if i have caused any hard feelings or hurt any religious/political feelings . It was intentional

Jai Shri Ram

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I will tell u y every1 is against muslims today…coz of western media…i m a muslim frm maharashtra…till some 9 years back every1 was ok wit a muslim… After 9/11 our lives hav become miserable…if u go historically…according to cristians jews killed jesus…aftr islam came ovr and they conquered jerusalam all the 3 religions lived peace fully…at the time of crusades..when cristians took over jerusalem they didn spare a single muslm or a jew…hitler a cristian killed milions of jews…accept the fact that a conquerer of any religion will kill to win the land he wants…guys appreciate the fact that muslm and hindus lived peacefully for centuries in mughal times…its only westerner who divided us… Today y only muslims r called terrorist….wen a maoist kills…wen naxal breaks a train track and whole train is draild 100s die.. call every1 who causes mass destruction a terorist…i kno u wont… its coz of the media… Every other movie villian wud be a bearded guy wit a muslim cap..media is been controlled by bunch of guys who wanna create bad name for all muslims… Anyways i dont care who wins court case coz i wont get a job coz of it…nor will i get raise in my salary coz of it…

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One simple view:
We have entered a period of civilization whereby we enacted laws after our independence. Maintaining the status quo should have been the Mantra. We cannot keep on talking about history during which time there was no law and only anarchy existed.

As per some evidence, ram temple existed before Babri, what existed before ram temple? Keep on analyzing will do no good. Maintaining and respecting the current laws will keep india united and nothing else.

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History tells us hindus and muslims can never live in peace, and the big cats so call the politicians make the best of these two, Give the place to the Sikh even in the past they had to stand for the right, and best is the Guru Granth Sahib that has place for all specially for the Hindus and muslims if it talks of Ram it talks about Allah I wonder if up there are the two concern people at war? Are they even bothered if a temple or a masjid is constructed ? WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING?

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@All of you……

Blame it all on the ‘Apple’……. rising above all religions and religious sentiments…. keeping all faiths in our hearts and deeds….. wouldn’t it be the best solution, which some of you have pointed out, that the court comes out with a decision…. not in favour of a Hindu or of a Muslim but of a human being……….. and use the site to build something for the benefit of all……. crossing all boundaries of religion, nation et all………..

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In my view Sri Ram will not be happy to see blood, death and violance in his name to build a temple. He truly lives in our heart and even if temple is build, many of us in our lifetime may not even get a chance to visit even once. In my view, that place should be used for the help to mankind by building a hospital where irrespective of relegiion, people will get healed. That will not hurt anyone who is a true human being.

On the other hand, if verdict says a mosque will be built, it’s natually going to hurt the sentiments of all Indians. Similarly if verdict says a temple will be built; all anti-social elements will take advantage of the situation and create violance be it politicians, media or anyone else.

I hope that our judges will also think of the repurcursions of their verdict and choose a creative path to this deadly problem.

I strongly recommend building up a hospital in public private partnership which will server all mankind beyond their caste, creed, nationality and relegiion.

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I am a shudra.Ram killed shudra for performing austerities under the influence of brahmins.I am happy that Ram temple was destroyed and hope it is never built again.

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Build a park for kids and call it Ram-Rahim Children’s park..or a hospital..or maybe a school…besides a neutral stand, I see no peaceful solution coming out…true that it is Ram Janma Bhumi..and its a fact that Mughals ravaged it (and other non-islamic establishments) to spread their religion…but come on…this is not the Mughal era that we are living in…India is a secular country, and one needs to consider that aspect…fortunately or unfortunately.

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It is sad that still Indian Muslims have not learnt the hate lessons preached by war mongers. I do not have anything against innocent peace-loving Muslims who like to distance themselves in this controversy. What message, I want to give them is that they have failed miserably in reigning in the hot-heads in their community.

There is no denying fact that scores of temples were destroyed in India during the invasion by Mughals and millions were compelled to convert to Islam in order to avoid humiliation at the hands of the invaders – the overriding logic then was “when you can’t defeat them – join them”. But unfortunately due to typical peculiarities in Islam, the growing generations could not syncretise with the Hindus (i) due to their superior ruler mentality and (ii) intense religio-phobic verses in Quran and Hadiths on treatment of Kafirs, Jahils, Kuffars etc. There are hundreds of texts now freely available in the Internet – including authentic translations of Quran and Hadith which substantiate these Jingoistic verses (iii) a religiously fanatic mullah-qazi-imam system which continued to flourish by holding the strangle-hold on uneducated Muslims and pushing them more and more to obscurantism and a mythical call to build a society similar to 7th century Makkah / Madinah. These pushed Muslims away from a universal inclusive approach and more towards a “them v/s us” approach.

Muslims also agree that Pakistan and Bangladesh have failed as Nations. West Pakistan’s Hindu population close to 20% after partition has dwindled to < 1% now. Bangladesh’s 30% population has decreased to 15% now. This is the sorry state of affairs when Muslims rule the country. Closer home, right in India’s “crown” jewel, Kashmir, the Islamo-fanatics have driven away the Hindu Pandits humiliating and orphaning them from their rightful homes.

The sensible Muslims in this forum may very well ponder on these facts before they take on “Ram Mandir – Babri Masjid” issue for defence or discussion. They should first change situation in their own homes and then call out Hindus to give up their claim.
How about chucking out the religious leaders from their reckoning?
How about giving up the Sharia law and stand for a Uniform civil code? Moderate Muslims only sing paeans about India’s democracy, but when it comes to abandoning obscurantist law systems, they fight shy? Why? These same moderate muslims applaud jokers like Zakir Naik when he openly ridicules Hinduism and contrasts Islam as a remedy for all the world’s ills. Can a practicing Hindu allowed to proclaim his religions superiority in any other country? Unfortunately, the Muslims have had their way for too long and what is happening is a result of bad Karma of their fore-fathers.

In order to achieve peace Islam needs to re-orient itself, there should be a soul-searching within and results found from principles of Universal amity. This Mandir-Masjid controversy hopefully should bring in introspection within India’s Muslims. Last, the common Muslim need not be worried. As long as Hindus are in majority, he will be safe to practice his religion. But the day, Muslims become majority, then what is happening in Kashmir, will spread to other Muslim-dominated regions. History is witness to the cancerous influence of Islam in nation’s progress. Some Muslims may cite example of the wealthy Middle-east. Yes, time will tell. The day, oil supply dwindles from their land’s bowels, all these lands will be converted to waste lands like Afghanistan and Balochistan and will only amalgamated to grater Taliban.

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Hi all. I agree with you Amir. The mentality of common man won’t change after the verdict. It only will bring a sense of Hindu-led victory over Muslims or vice-versa. Those ******* Hindus who claim that it’s their victory over other’s, I bet most of them will not even go to Ayodhya once ever. I, a Brahmin by birth, appeal my countrymen to respect their milk-man or servant or daily vendor- be he a Muslim or Hindu. Thanx…

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the steam has gone out of the campaign and it is a damp squid now. it is only the govt which is trying to provocate people to create fights by constantly putting in their appeal to remain calm. who is excited anyway? the deed was done and the muslims had their revenge multi-fold times. so even they have lost interest in a mere stone structure on earth. the only structure the muslim is interested in is mecca. otherwise razing or pulling down a mosque is no big deal for them as such things happen in saudi arabia quite frequently, sometime to accomodate a high way or some other times to establish a mall. that the indian muslims reacted so badly quite interestingly proves their hindu background as it is the hindu who is rooted in antiquities and not islam. emotion for things historical is the hindu trait and despite having converted to islam centuries ago the indian muslims continue to exhibit the greater hindu emotions. if ayodhya burns or if india burns after today’s verdict it would not be because of the indian hindus or muslims but because of rogue elements imported specifically for this purpose. one wonders why the verdict just days before cwg? quite a diversion to save the mind from worrying about falling roofs?

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Hat’s off to you Mr. Dronacharya. You are a true son of this fertile soil. I suggest everyone should go through your comments. You are a man of wisdom.

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Keeping the verdict aside I request all Indians be united to strenghten our country and more prosperous. Our blood is of same color. So why the difference? I request all brothers of muslim and hindu communities to maintain peace and strive for the betterment of our country,

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Its feels good to see that people are being rational here and are actually trying to talk out the issue.
And as usual there are a few people trying to disrupt the proper dialog thats going on.

Lets think like Indians, And maintain peace.

We need peace, Not Pieces.

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we should be noble and humane at heart and mankind does not mean we have to become fanatical , abnoxious.let us respect the court verdict and concentrate on building an India which is devoid of this religious bigotry.

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I agree and most Hindus agree that the court’s decision should be accepted if and only if it is in favor of Hindus. It is not necessary to produce any documents to prove that Ram was born in Ayodhya nor it is necessary to prove that Babar was anyway outsider and invaded India. The truth is that the Masjid was built as a symbol of victory by destroying the temple . Please note this was not the only temple destroyed by Babar or Auragzeb .If not 100 more than 10000 temples were destroyed all over India. No Hindu is demanding restoration of all those temples. Even the great Vallabhbhai patel also insisted that the four main temples including Ayodhya, Kashi, Mathura and Somanath should be restored. Then prime minister Pandit Nehru didnot agree. Somnath was purified and restored in 1948 however Sardar Patel couldnot do remaining 3 as he had less influence in UP.
If hindus are told to be magnminous they have already shown they are so by not demanding restoration of more than 10000 temples.(even in 1992 more than 100 temples were destroyed in Bangala Desh and Pakistan)Hindus cannot be asked to compromise because they have always compromised.They have never never destroyed any masjid other than Babari Masjid(this was also not a masjid is some people’s opinion) The point which I want to emphasis is why only one community should compromise all the time ….will that not mean they are timid ? The objective of restoring the 4 main places of Hindus is to restore peace because days after days and generations after generations venom is spreading and gap between two communities is increasing. The reason for the spreading of venom is the historical wrongs witnessed by several persons who visit these sites and go back to their places and describe the wrong monuments preserved by our politicians for their benifits.

Individually I have many muslim friends and I have nothing against Islam or for that matter against any religon.Nor I have any great pride for my own religon which have so many casts and subcasts.I know that main issues are totally different like poverty,education, development ,health etc. But if we have to address main issues we must first resolve these lingering issues which keep our society divided . We were divided by British deliberately and the only way to come up is to unite . By maintaining the status quo nothing will improve but if these 4 places are restore then may be after another 60 or 100 years the differences will vanish. If the historical wrongs are in front of us we will see them and we will not be able to see beyond them. No Hindu is asking muslims to quit though the partition of the nation was done on the basis of religion. Muslims have as much right to stay in India as any other Hindu it does not however give them license to be adamant and fight for what Hindus want. It will be in the interest of every Indian that we quickly resolve these pending issues restore the temples and move to real issues.

I admire the pride Muslims have for their religion so do I admire Shikh community who all were basically Hindus. They are real fighters even after 60 years in Lahor their Gurudwara is in tact because Muslims know that Shikhs are fighters. Why Hindus dont feel proud about their religion ? Is it because if they show pride then they are called communal ? It is important for the existance of our religion that we must correct the historical wrongs . earlier we do it is better it is for both the religions.

I am sure by now both the communities must have understood that the Britisher’s policy of “divide and rule” is continued by our own politicians and only way to defeat them is to quickly compromise . The onus of compromising is on Muslim community as they are the most deprived community and are biggest sufferers for the adamant stands taken by their religious leaders for their own benefits. I am sure that soon better sense will

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if the muslims are so keen to offer prayers at shri ram janm bhoomi and shri krishna janmstahn and gyan vaapi masjid, why should i object. at least they will find their prayers heard by allah and their ancestor shri ram, krishna shiv. i find it rather appaling to see the idiosyncracy of a huge population rather disobeying hazrat mohhamd -p.b.h.s by offering prayer at disputed site and in revrence of other than allah.

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wat the f*** is this invasion shit and destruction of culture……DUDE, DO NOT MIX CULTURE WITH RELIGION BELIEVE IT OR NOT, INDIA’S CULTURE IS INFLUENCED BY ALL THE EMPERORS THAT INVADED IT …THE TAJ MAHAL YOU GO TO SEE WAS MADE BY MUGHAL …..INDIA IS INDEED ONE OF THE MOST SAFE PLACES FOR MUSLIMS TO LIVE IN….SO SHUT THE HELL UP WITH THIS HINDU MUSLIM INVASION DESTRUCTION …YOU SOUND CRAZY ……… !!

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I know I’m going to write the same thing, still I’m writing.
Personally I feel temple should be built there.
But being a responsible citizen of my country, I am not going to oppose the verdict of the court.
Even if court says Muslims can build there mosque I don’t've any problem, I don’t know how much difference my opinion is going to make here.
I am a person who does not fear from God, actually I love nd respect GOD… And I’ve my favourites in them too, Lord Ram. He was Maryada Purushottam. As much I know him he never asked any one to build temple for him. He says love those whom I love. Live ur life like I lived. I think that is the only thing he expects from me. He taught me “Tyaag”[Tyaag of Power, Tyaag of beloved Sita...],what is called “Quarbaani” in Islaam. Was it not possible for Ram to forcefully capture the world nd live life as per his choice. Then why he dint bothered about his personal interests. I’m a Ram follwer nd I’ve no problem in giving this land to Mosque.
But what’ll happen after that? definetly the fight is not between right nd Wrong. It’s the wrong people of both the community who are fighting… If any one of them wins, India will lose…
Can’t we build a school or hospital over there. But again don’t include politics over there. Give it to Cambridge or Oxford or MIT.. anyone… but not Indian Govt…

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HI,

I read thru the above posts and was surprised to find quite a few idiots who are stark raving mad!!!

no one knows what happened s many years ago and yet everybody is giving their own 2 paise in this mix.. one brilliant observer blamed all our problems on the British.. how typical ???

if u hv to actaully blame anyone.. please blame yourself !! ask yourself how much have u done.. read the posts above and then ask yourself how much have to added to the peace or hate that exists.

m no historian and i hv no 2 paise to give.. i served my time in the armed forces and paid my debt to the country..today i live another country and feel bad when i see that due to all this nonsense.. d entire country has become a laughing stock.. and who is responsible for this ??
” I ”

Love and Peace always,
Archangel84

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So called politicians made a huge mistake for their own personal benefits during the independence and people who were no way connected to these culprits are paying the price of it in all ways. We cannot allow any of our neighboring countries to threaten us. For this we need to be united at first. If any other differences are there we need to sort it out. This time some can give hindus who got killed just to keep the religion alive. I am sure they will give more back to all.

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It’s a kinda fashion to abuse the other community. But guys it’s not fun. We are equally titilated by a charming lady- of course irrespective of her faith, we laugh uncontrolledly irrespective of Kader Khan or Govinda rib-tickers. So why can’t we survive together?

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Man! What you said is damn good. I take the onus for all bad goings. People hate to be parted yet love to do so. All the above comments show the aggravated feelings and no positivities for a good future. It’s pity. I’m sorry for that.

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dear friend,
now as the verdict is there kindly ask the gilanis to exit and support the grand ram temple and enjoy the peace.

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We go to court when we disagree and refuse to work together.

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Ayodhya verdict a new Ray of hope
After 60 years of long wait finally the High Court verdict on Ayodhya is out, we have already seen enough of bloodshed, hatred and also those who roasted their tandoori chickens on our burning houses, now time has come when we all sensible people stand up and say enough is enough, building our nation and providing bright future to our kids is more important.

Now when the verdict is out, let us put all these fighting hardliners aside and show the world a new India an example of brotherhood and peace.

For me my religion and beliefs are important but at the same time equally important is my friend’s religion too, with whom I work daily, who stands beside me in my bad times, who are worried if I am in trouble, Though we are from different religion its makes no difference, as a social being it’s our duty to respect each other’s religions and care for them.

Here is a golden opportunity to prove that we are good & civilized people and not barbarians, we all come together and build world’s largest and most beautiful architecture on this disputed land (Ram janmabhoomi/Babari Masjid) where Ram and Rahim I mean temple and mosque reside in the same building and we people from different religion go and pray with pride, The structure be so grand that world forgets Taj Mahal & Eiffel tower, We make it our nation’s biggest pride, entire world should come to witness this grand legend of brotherhood, each country should learn a lesson of unity and harmony from India this will make us proud and our country proud

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no dynamites were used. cant u understand that even a colective stair of the huge ram followers is enough to destroy any structure. it was in the heat of the moment that it all happened. but it intrigues me to note the great dillema and penury of a comunity who is responsible of demolition of millions of worship place including bamian very recently on tasting a spoon full of their own recipy. demolition of temples and churches has been a reverred duty of all islamic rulers and invaders world wide, than why lament on the distruction of a non islamic structure in ayodhya. still if it pleases the people of allah to offer prayers at shri ram janmsthan than i consider it better, for all the prayers offered at ram janmsthan are in reverence of shri ram. whatever the ritual of offering prayers may be.

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and look at the cheek of people crying over so called babri masjid. you divide this country on religious grounds and look what you have done to those parts of erstwhile india. if your will and medievial wisdom has to takes over this country than india would soon be in the league of pakistan. your basic intrisic value of non co-existence is responsible for whatever is happening in pakistan and kashmere, rise above the medievial mindset and show a real sense of qqurbani, not the so called qurbani which is reserved for a muslim strictly, but real qurbani. reach ayodhya and lay the foundation of shri ram temle. believe me my friend your qurbani will yield un-precidented good willa nd harmony in this country.

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Shahid Reply:
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:22 am

Give qurbaani for whom?a hatemonger like you.The para that you have written above is indicative of the hate you are filled with.You want us to give qurbani for you so that u can gloat.If “muslims are responsible” for demolition of your temples(which is just a hear say based on biased,intentional,vilifyin reports prepared by ur forefathers(britishers(whose feet u licked while muslims and sikhs fought them)) , then Brahmins are responsible for demolition of thounsands of Buddhists and jain monastaries in this country.You must first return the Tirumala temple to jains and then talk about Ayodhya.You are happy for now that this court gave a heavily brahmin favored judgement,but keep in mind that it will be remembered as a judgement based on myth and not reason.These mythological arguments,ideally,should not stand in a real court of lawBut Alas! the judge DVS seemed to be filled with religious passion so much that he went on to declare that a temple was demolished even though ASI reports indicated only the presence of ruins.Hope the SC delivers its judgement based on reason and logic.

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anand Reply:
October 25th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

chilla jitna chillana hei but mandir wahin banega. the ram temple will be huge and would settle your mind to peace

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Dheeraj Reply:
November 17th, 2010 at 8:29 pm

see………shahid…..look into yourself…..so much poison is dere inside you….so much anger…..the decision was not totally in favour of hindus kid…………n dat report dat muslims break temple was not prepared by britishers even……dat is a fact we all knw……kk……….
n 2nd thing i agreed there are every type of people in every relegion…….dere is no doubt in dat..but the poison u r having inside in ppl lik u..dat is d reason..first atleast u flush it out friend….for our sake
peace

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he message we are getting from muslims who are very sad/disappointed/angry with the verdict is that they refuse to acknowledge the existance of Lord Ram as historical figure and God in general. All they know is their god Allah and no one else. Its high time for them to understand that other faith people are around and they have their own true God and true faith and those people give a damn to their Allah. Also naturally they wont question the existance of their prophets and the angels who whispered in their ears the holy words of Allah.

Guess muslims should grow up and accept, respect, appreciate Gods of other faith instead of questioning their historic authenticity and mocking their beliefs ( idol worshippers, satan influenced, kafirs, infedels, pagans etc) and imposing taxes, zazias, treating them as sons of satan, destroying their temples etc.

Also they go into hysteria when some one questions about the koran, mohammed, authenticity of the pubic hair in hazrat bal, authenticity of the allah, other prophets, adam and eve etc. Let them bring a birth certificate of their first prophet Adam and Eve (father and daughter) Abraham and Sarah (father and daughter) and their historic birth place. Then we will think about the historic facts of our Lord Ram

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What ever fact you present, how much literature of the saints and epics you quote these muslims wont even acknowledge that Lord Ram is the God in the heart of Hindus. All they think is this Ram is a fake thing and evil. Hindus got influenced by Satan and Satan has corrupted the minds of hindus and planted fake god called Ram in their minds. So its the sacred duty of muslims to wipe out this so called God Ram from hindus and bring them to the right path i.e., islam.

When the muslims in question is an extremist or moderate or modern they have the same opinion.
They can never come out from that damn thing called Allah and their damn last prophet. Thats why they repeat every day that “Allah is Great and Mohammed is his last prophet” Sort of remembering that stupid thing everyday, memorizing, getting self hypnotized and brain washing their kids by making them repeat the same thing again and again 5 time a day day after day, month after month, year after year.

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muslims must recognise that they have mecca to turn to. how would they feel if some non-muslim laid claim on mecca? if they recognise that and understand their internal feelings at such an umbrage they would be able to understand what ayodhya means for millions of hindus. if i were a muslim i would graciously accept this fact and not only give up on ayodhya but even contribute in mite and kind to built a hindu mecca there which would go through coming centuries as the most pious place for hindus all over the world to make their annual pilgrimage to.

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Hey! Just wanted to say great blog. Continue with the good work!

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Kudos to Mr. Rushdie for insisting the film must not be banned.

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… Cont…) During invasion of tribal’s in 1947. Large scale massacres in J&K took place in which people from all communities were killed which include Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs Christians, Buddhists ( in gilgit ballista area) several thousand Muslims were massacred in Jammu in first week of Nov.1947, We know starting at Muzzafarbad on 22nd & 23rd Oct-1947, several thousand Hindus (three times than that of Muslims) were slaughtered at the hands of Pakistani Raiders, its army, their J&K civilian traitors in the border areas of Kashmir when they entered the Valley and then in Jammu Province at Deva vatala, Bhimber, Rajauri, Kotli, Mirpur, Poonch and at Gilgit, Askardu. In first week of Nov-1947 in Jammu several thousand Muslims were taken to forests in kathua & murdered in cold blood there.

In the event, on October 26, the tribals were still on the rampage in Baramula, killing, burning, looting. Of Baramula’s 14000 inhabitants, only 3,000 were alive the next day. The atrocities committed by these tribals are too well known to every person to need any rebuttal, even Barbarians will be ashamed.

Author can read in links , I stated above how at Muzzafabad on 22/10/1947 , “Raiders play deception. They asked males among Sikhs to come out, telling them, “We have nothing to do with Sikhs”. The latter felt relieved but as they ran back towards the bridge they found the gate on the other side of the bridge closed. The raiders began firing on them, and killed them mercilessly. Then they began pushing the dead bodies down the railing of the bridge with shoes into Kishenganga river. The bridge was clear again. The raiders then asked ladies to segregate themselves from the main crowd. All the ladies in the age group of 11-45 years were huddled into 30-35 buses, waiting on Kohala side and were taken to Waziristan etc. Small children in the lap of their mothers were thrown on to the road, where they fell victim to starvation or dogs. The children of once rich people were now at the mercy of dogs. Just to tell you Non Muslim women abducted from J&K by Tribal’s were sold on the streets of NWFP for Rs 15.00 & the children for Rs 5.00, I do not know you know this or not ? Members of the minority community had been put in jail in Muzzafarabad, Raiders were all the time looking for young ladies. The father-in-law of a lady had been shot dead when he tried to resist attempts of raiders to abduct his daughter-in-law. She never came back. Outside the jail groups of raiders would rape women in full public view. At times there would be gang-rape. Only few ladies returned to their families after abduction and rape. There were instances where ladies were killed after rape. You will read in link even dead were not buried, even uncivilized people like Huleghu Khan allowed to bury dead, but this was a strange islamic army of tribal looters did not.

During the tribal raids in Kashmir Andrew Whitehead the BBC journalist. had written sometime back how tribal raiders entered St. Joseph’s Convent and Mission hospital on the Jhelum Valley Road that links Srinagar with Muzaffarbad, and killed people including. a patient, Mrs Motia Devi Kapoor, Lt. Col D.O.T. Dykes and his wife Biddy, who had come to the hospital to give birth her Baby, the husband of the hospital doctor, Mr Baretto & after raping the 29-year-old Spanish nun Sister M. Teresalina Joaquina & a nurse Miss Philomena they killed them in its precincts.

I know many of people will not know this. Col. Habibur Rahman Khan who had fought with Subhash Chander Bose in INA became the murderer of Non Muslims at Bhimber along with tribal lashkars. He died in pain. Listen about brutal burning of Rajouri where 25000 people were burnt to death during Diwali of 1947 & I do not know you know it or not Hindus in rajouri today do not celebrate Diwali even today in memory of those massacred in 1947. Col. Rahamtullah Khan was one time in army of Hari Singh, his son Aslambeg Khan are called Rajouri butchers, & were instrumental in all this loot. they were arrested later by Indian army. Maharaja got them released as they were his old servants. what happened to them is another story. Mahraja thought that they will help him in getting his accounts in Lahore banks unfrozen. But nothing happened. Rahamtullah died of cancer and his son was killed by dacoits. I hope you have heard about the Alibeg Gurudwara in Mirpur, which was turned into a concentration camp for non-Muslims & scores of men were slaughtered, women raped & children sold. And for this those persons of Muslim conference that rule in POK now were responsible, and some of them claim to be now the Mujahid-i-awwal, but the fact is they should be tried for war crimes.

In the words of Pakistan they have made POK , Azad Kashmir which they say is free, but if we analyze it today as a citizen of J&K a complete exchange of Non-Muslim population has taken place from that so-called Azad Kashmir to Indian Part of Kashmir as a result of that bloodshed. If there were non-Muslim remnants in So-called Azad Kashmir, there that has been converted, it is 100% Muslim today. Does it indicate some thing? I hope you meet some day the persons who have settled in Jammu from Mirpur, from Muzzafarabad, from Poonch, Rajouri, & and listen to them how their and near ones were butchered in these areas and by whom and who connived with whom in this massacre? You will be more objective later. ARE WE TO ALSO SUPPORT THIS AZADI TODAY THEN?

Having said so but if we analyze the population ratio on both sides of LOC more ethnic diversity on Indian side & none on POK side, why? Did Indian soldiers kill all Muslims or All non-Muslims were killed or converted on POK side & by whom, by GOVT there along with army, else how can it happen that not a single soul of Non Muslims live there. The result was that POK is now 100% Muslim with not even a soul of Non-Muslims that in itself is an indicator. I have been asking this many writers from valley this question but they do not have any answer to it. I repeat once again not even a single soul of Non-Muslims that also after 1947, what happened to all of them? We know the answer but writers from valley do not like yet to answer it.

That is why I said Bigger Question are you going to make J&K on Indian side a state on 100% on religious basis or what, and more bigger question is how can a person with gun saying that politically he is 100% right and the person who is un-armed and raising political voice against it how can he be politically in-correct on whose behest ethnic cleansing has been done in valley & parts of Jammu.

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I laughed when I read the first line but my heart broke once more thinking about the same fact…over the years during every big event we see articles like this but nothing happens…same story of defeats, no medals every olympic or other world competition events. Now another comparison we can make is to Chinese atheletes…they are on top of so many sports now that I wonder what changed that in addition to being world strongest economy they have excelled in sports too in last few years. But point is, till when we will keep talking….we need to change the system at the base level…build the system to train and prepare the kids of 4-5 yrs old not when they are 15-16 yrs..it’s no magic that 16 yr olds from US/China are able to win the golds…those kids have spent half of their life already for that moment…but question is why no one understands and take that initiative in India. Just opening an academy on your name is not the solution….we need the winners and it will take immense change in our attitude to be the winner and that attitude can only be built from the early stage when kids start learning the sports.

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We in India are obsessed with Bollywood (and Bollywood stars’ personal lives), Indian idol, KBC and endless saas-bahu serials, with cricket and cricketers’ personal lives, with shopping and visiting malls.

Perhaps the energy needs to channelized in encouraging sports both for adults and children, exploring what Australia did (sports academies) and China did (discovering talent at a younger age and then nurturing the talent by the state).

Just my cents worth!

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From where do you hire writers HT, that they dont know even how to write Phelps’ ???
Just like the municipal corporation’s gardener who doubled up as a dhobi too ?

Secondly, why cant you systematically compare the cost of setting up a Table tennis/tennis/boxing/shooting facility Vs Cost and time taken for the Noida park..? A media house wont be sued by the politician who gets footwear via jet plane. Nor did u cared to get the gurgaon’s pregnant lady road accident death any coverage in the 90 days. Bakwaas chapwa lo.. eh ?
Or are you too sissy like the gen Indian public to do anything good..?

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guys from villages beat phelps easily ..there are tons of excellent swimmers in indian villages ..but this country is all about silly bollywood,silly cricket

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Yes why don’t we all complain and just demotivate our country!

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We can blame the government for being corrupt and not allowing our country to move forward, oh wait I have a better idea why don’t we use the excuse that we are a third world country don’t have enough money. Oh wait can we say that because of too much population, space and personal training is hard. Oh wait I have a better idea lets blame our society for being to involved by the glitz and glamour of bollywood and the crazy fanatic love for cricket. Is that going to help the situation? We spend too much time coming up with excuses, blaming and demotivating ourselves that we begin exactly where we started. If you want to see a change in India’s performance don’t leave it to our corrupt government, or stop blaming and looking for excuses. Instead begin at home, motivate talent in your family, neighbor, community. Look for the talent yourself, support NGO’s that scout athletes in slums. Support them, because more than half of our talent is hiding in our poor. Find a solution, and once you find it take action on it. Its easy to compare, demotivate and mock the situation, but it takes courage to accept the situation and turn the situation around!

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