Are we losing the plot in Kashmir?



Pakistan ranks 151 and just below Yemen on the UN’s human-development indicators. On schooling, it has found a place just below Sudan. “Growth and investment will continue to be constrained…,” Pakistan’s budget-eve Economic Survey said on June 4. Its economy is expected to grow 4.5% in the year starting July 1. India expects to grow 8.5%.

Therefore, Kashmir’s separatists should not remain hinged to Pakistan or tie their future to a country that is only descending into chaos.

Now, let us turn to Pakistan-controlled Kashmir. Its economy is 10 times behind Orissa, the poorest Indian state, according to the last National Sample Survey (with 40 per cent people living on less than $ 1 a day).

In the 2001 legislative assembly elections of Azad Kashmir, when some pro-independence groups tried to put up candidates, Pakistani authorities cracked down hard with random arrests and torture. According to the Pakistan-imposed Constitution of Azad Kashmir, in force since 1974, election candidates are vetted to ensure only those who support Kashmir’s unification with Pakistan get to contest.

Many Kashmiris have told me it is a myth that they are fighting for accession with Pakistan. They want a completely independent Kashmir. However, they should draw some fair lessons from their other half just across the line of control. Azad Kashmir is neither free nor emancipated. Pakistan will only wolf down the Indian part of Kashmir if it were to be ceded.

For those who have an opinion on Kashmir, the issue however remains tilted on an unequal footing. It is very easy to critcise the separatists but not the government’s approach.

We want Kashmir to remain a part of India, but we are just not doing enough to ensure it does. Repeated violation of human rights is stoking anger, giving yet another reason to step up the conflict.

Such infringements hit a new low with the disturbing Shopian case, in which two women, Neelofar and her sister-in-law, Aasiya, were allegedly raped and murdered by security forces in May 2009.

This past week alone, three young men were killed in clashes with security forces, back to back, leading to massive uprisings all over the state. The current bout of protests was triggered by the death of 17-year-old Rafiq Bangroo in police firing.

We cannot keep separatists with us by holding a gun to their heads all the time. We are simply not breaking new ground.

There is an economic strategy that is sometimes deployed to control prices caused by hoarding of essential items. It entails taking the incentive out of hoarding, because punitive measures, such as prosecuting hoarders, usually don’t work. So a better solution is to improve supplies — availability eases inflation — so that hoarding no longer becomes an attractive option. Likewise, taking the incentive out of separatism should be the central doctrine of our Kashmir policy.

Custodial killings, summary executions and arbitrary arrests shamefully remain on the forefront of our counterinsurgency strategy.

Unfortunately, the government seems to have virtually outsourced decision-making to security forces, who can only think from the barrel of their gun. There is a need to turn a corner. An utter respect for human rights would be the first step.

It is high time we hold the security forces to account for human rights violations because this is critical to the ongoing conflict. It is an important confidence-building measure and key to maintaining peace.

Internationally, rights violation in Kashmir has only worked to our disadvantage, often by prompting comparisons between Israel’s occupation of Palestine and Kashmir, unfairly as India would say.

Recently, Israel’s foreign minister, inadvertently, referred to violence in India while trying to deflect the situation arising out of the flotilla fiasco. The reference — expunged immediately by Israel’s foreign ministry as a corrective measure — was obviously to Kashmir. It’s a different matter that Kashmir is not Gaza, and India isn’t Israel.

Our democracy, indeed like all modern democracies, stands on the principle of civilian control over security forces. That is why President Obama recently sacked Gen. Stanley McChrystal. According to the president, the former commander of US forces in Afghanistan undermined “the civilian control of the military that is at the core of our democratic system”.

The army in Kashmir has always resisted any curtailment of its powers under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, particularly its immunity from prosecution.

India needs to carefully balance its security needs with a respect for human rights, whose violation has become one of the necessary conditions for perpetuating Kashmir’s unrest.

Security forces have got a difficult job to do in Kashmir. But they cannot be given a blank cheque to do this job, or indeed any job that is required of them. If we do that, we do not remain a democratic country anymore.

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  • http://hindustantimes shan

    For once , Zia your blog , has some really good and valid points. But you are only interested in poking the eyes of indian (in your eyes hindu) nation. WHY DONT YOU GIVE SOME CONCRETE SUGGESTIONS, YOU MAY BE UP FOR AT LEAST PADMABIBHUSAN.Whenever army is deployed anywhere in the world , there are inevitable collateral damage. It is very reason for its deployment is also the very cause of all this infringements. THE FACT IT NEEDS ARMY TO QUELL SOMETHING , that something is NOT A NORMAL ANIMAL AND WILL NOT BEHAVE with civil norms. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR TROUBLE (SEPARATIST) without this oxygen they will die without anybody noticing. Now what can India Govt do. Very difficult. The separatist are separatist , like CPM is CPM bringing ruination to west bengal. And as you are your fellow Vir Sanghvi has argued very persuasively that it may be in india’s interest to let the VALLEY ONLY SECCEDE. IT IS SUCH A HUGE DRAIN ON INDIA VERY LIMITED RESOURCES.
    AND HOW CLEVERLY AND MISCHIVIOUSLY YOU COMPLETELY FAUILED TO MENTION THAT KASHMIR GETS SIX TIMES PER CAPITA IN CENTRAL ASSISTANCE THAN POOR BIHAR from where presumably hail.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Zia is part of islamic supremacist group.
    they cannot accept anything good about india (without poking at it)..

    it is always like this..

    why cant he write about Kashmiri pundits living in slums, or sacrifice by thousands of army men ?

    (i know kafir/infidel deserve that,, didnt islamic founder say that…)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Can Zia write about apostasy in islam ?

    look what happens to a person renouncing islam.
    fellow izlamists call for his death..

    can any muslim condemn this ?

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    The separtist/independence movement has to be viewed with the triggering of terrorism that Mrs Bhutto strted in the late 1980s and continues unabated ever-since.

    It was under Mrs Bhutto’s watch ISI first installed Ttaliban in Afghanistan. It was at that time that hundreds of young Islamic militants were recruited from the madrassas to do the agency’s dirty work in Indian Kashmir.

    The turning of Kashmir into a jihadist playground is the perilous legacy of Mrs Bhutto (with the assitance of Hamid Gul/ISI).
    In 1989, when the insurgency in the Indian portion first began, it was largely an amateur affair of young, secular minded Kashmiri Muslims rising village by village and wirlding homemade weapons . By the early 90s , however, Pakistan was sending over the border thousands of well-trained, heavily armed, and ideologically hardened Jihadis. Some were the same sort of exiled Arab Muslim radicals who were at the same time forming Al Queda in Peshawar.

    By 1993, during Mrs Bhutto’s second term, the Arab and Pkistani Jehadis and tehir ISI masters had really begun to take over the uprising from the locals. It was at this stage that the secular leadership of of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation front began losing ground to hard line Islamist outfits like Hizbul Mujahdeen.

    Hamid Gul, in an interview stated “the Kashmiri people have risen up, and it is the national purpose of Pakistan to help liberate them. If the Jehadis go out and contain India , tying down their army on their own soil, for a legitimate cause, why should we not support them”?

    Thanks to the sacrifice and heroic acts of our brave men and women in the military, we are slowly building and bringingg Kasmir back into the fold. It is quitte targic that many innocent Kashmiris were killed; these happen in a war zone. We cannot expect everybody to be a Bhishma when the opposition puts a Shikandi as the front. What the Jehadis have done is to put children and women and other innocent men in the front as they always do (with Kasabs et al).

    Kashmir is a part of india, no buts, ifs. India has to do everything to ensure that. In this situation, India has to follow the Tibetan startegy of China.

    As Zia stated, security forces have to be careful to prevent/minimize civilian casualties, however difficult it may be. However, I will not clip the army from accomplishing its mission (mission may have to be redefined from time to time).

    Last time I checked, Indian military is under civilian control only, unlike our friendly neighbor in Pakistan. So, let us not fuss about the security forces. May be they should be given more power and resources to cull terrorists

    ;

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Thomas\

    This Hamid Gul is a crazy cuckoo. Farid Zakaria interviewed him last year. He said while it is true thatt the World Trade Cnterr collapsed on 9/11; it was not caused by the 19 terrorists plowing a plane into the building. He said it was a planned activity between the US govt and Jews; that all the Jews working in the building took off that day (because theyw ere forewarned,) and that teh US govt planted a device in the building that will explode when the plane hit the building.

    These are the cuckoos running the wretched state of Pakistan.. How can one live in this neighborhood?

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    As far as I know, Hamid Gul isnt running anything in Pakistan. He is just a journalist.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @KD you are wromg through and through , Hamid Gul used to be head of ISI, and is “officially” retired.

    KD Reply:

    Thanks Shan – I was confusing Hamid Gul with Hamid Mir.

  • KD

    Zia – agree with the overall message but not with the specifics …..
    “We want Kashmir to remain a part of India, but we are just not doing enough to ensure it does”

    This statement assumes that Kashmir and for that matter, any other state should expect something from ‘India’ to remain a part of it. This completely unacceptable. I agree with the point that better governance from the center is a must for every state in India to prosper, but I think Kashmiris will only do themselves a favor by ensuring that the temperatures dont rise on their streets, to levels where security forces have to take drastic steps in self-defence.

    Illegal money is sponsoring stone pelters in Kashmir. The basic idea of instigating violence using stone-pelting comes from Hamas. All calls for bandh and shutdown come at friday congregations by religious leaders (Mirwaiz and his more fundamentalist cousins) on loud speakers on top of masjids. So lets not ignore the religious ‘brotherhood’ ideology to this ‘freedom’ movement.

    Pakistan and its ‘freedom fighters’ have tried to get ‘freedom’ for the last 60 years using violence at various stages and denied Kashmir its rightful assimilation into India’s pluralism,culture and taste of Indian prosperity and openness. Can they give India the next 60 years to rule Kashmir in peace ?

    Lets see how many Kashmiris want a violent freedom struggle at the end of those 60 years !!

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    For those who believe that rigged elections in 89 were a reason for increase in violence thereafter, please try to apply your theory to PoK, where rigged elections are the norm.

    Why are the ’self respecting’ Kashmiris not rising in revolt against Pakistan for taking away their independence and not letting them fight elections in PoK ?

    Why does India have to request Hurriyat to participate in elections and still face violence from their stone pelters, while Pakistan vetos candidate applications and systematically remove those who dont toe their line, and we still see Kashmiris sucking up to their Pakistani masters ?

    Where is the United Jihad Council head when it comes to holding Pakistan accountable for PoK ? In my opinion the UJC is the most unislamic, ‘haraam’ council in the world for their biased treatment of India-Pakistan issues.

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    shan Reply:

    I have problem with the idea kashmiris want independence. But have they thought it through. It is a land locked country , hardly any mineral resouces. And many Kasmiris have attained high positions in India , like Prof Siddique , Ex Director of BOSE INSTITUTE IN CALCUTTA, who was also president of world toxicolgial congress. Not to mention the topper in IAS this year is a muslim from Kashmir, then you have Saman Rushdie, Farooq Sheikh, Gulam Nabi Azad. LOOK AT BANGLADESH ., all they can do is infiltrate across the border to look for jobs. No small country can prosper on its own unless it is floating on oil.It is like the concept of VOLUME AND MASS PRODUCTION in economics. Because India can pull all the resources so the defence which is massive would be impossible for any small country to afford , so in reality it will not remain independent , it will be like pakistan , permanent lackeys of america and now china. And putting the rhetoric aside if you look objectively , THE STATES IN INDIA have massive power and they cannot make use of it. It is only defence and foreign policy that is in the hands of centre. Just look at bangladesh for that matter pakistan , every common (patent expired) medicine they have to import from India. IN FACT THE WEST IS IMPORTING MEDICINES FROM INDIA IN HUGE AMOUNT AND THESE ARE NOT JUST PARACETAMOL BUT EVERY THING FROM HIGH TECH LIKE HEPB vaccine , anti aids drugs etc. Incidentally the pioneer in this field the MD of CIPLA is muslim. Then again Azim Premji is only few paces behind Bill gates. ALSO HOW COME LARGE NUMBERS TURN OUT IN KASHMIR DURING ELECTIONS.

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    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shan

    All points noted. Apart from all these; no modern country can allow the secession. Once a while you hear about Texas wanting to secede from US..anybody think sit will ever happen?

    Neither Kashmir nor Kerala is goin to secede. All the resources and might of the state should be applied mercilessly.

    If we let go , it will become a Pakistan satellite (or even part of Pakistan) state, a bridge making it a little closer to Benga Desh, and in a question of time will have their own corridor through the UP/bihar/WB Muslim areas all the way to Bengla Desh.

    I indeed am paranoid

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Syed you can’t even defend your religion and your community where ever you live in India, and u are talking about Kashmiris who lost 80000 people, i repeat 80,000. And you are made to shut up in all forums. You can speak out hear because you dancing to their tune, otherwise Gopi, Rajiv and Am would be all over you.

    Arun keep up the good educational work, but I doubt if these jokers will understand what you are trying to convey.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Azhar

    Where did you learn that Syed cannot defend his religion and community in india. Do you think India, like Pakistan, is a failed state? For peets sake, an italian born christian woman is the most powerful person in the country.

    Yes, we had (and will have) communal flareups, when innocents from various groups will get killed. It is unfortunate, we are not proud of it. However, it is not because of the state’s systematic elimination of minorities in Pakistan. Why would you require an individual to state that some sect is not a part of Islam in your passport application?

    With all our issues and diversity in language, religion, ethnicity etc, we are able to create a sustainable democracy with excellent educational and administrative institutions; while our sister born at the same time with similar bestowments is going further and further down the spiral. The world will say it is because of Pakistan’s focus exclusively on religion (as evidenced last week about blocking Google) at the expense of everything else.

    I am glad that my parents were not born a Muslim in the undivided Punjab.

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    “I am glad that my parents were not born a Muslim in the undivided Punjab.” Right Gopi you would have be slaughtered like cow then, millions of people on both sides lost.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Well, that could have been too. But what I meant was because of that birth they would have gone/stayed in Pakistan! And I will be the paraiah of the world, instead of being in a vibrant , multicultural, multi religiious, multilanguage .democracy growing at 8-9% with only hope in its people.

    syed Reply:

    Firstly no sane person would never support atrocities on any individual or community.

    The corollary to waht I have said is that the problems in Indian Kashmir are entirely in the KASHMIR VALLEY. There is no problem elsewhere in Indian Kashmir. And the Kashmir valley cannot be considered to represent the entire Indian KAshmir.

    On the Pakistani side the population is extremely homogeneous & almost 100% muslim.

    syed Reply:

    sorry, no sane person would ever support…

    time, time,

    Sam Reply:

    >no sane person would ever support..

    I hope you are right.
    When Ahmadis are killed, even neighbors did not visit the affected families in pakistan.

    sunni clerics want them killed through courts (for blasphemy maybe..)
    look at the BBC videos..

    either all of them went temporarily insane or, your statement is a wish…

    syed Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain Sahib,
    For your info I am not based in India & can anyone really force someone to say something on a blog?

    To repeat myself, whatever is happening in Indian Kashmir is happening ONLY in the kashmir valley which is not representative of the entire Indian Kashmir.

    syed Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain Sahib,
    Sam is probably a retired NRI nut with nothing more to do. I have had sevral hot discussions with him earlier. Gopi,Ashish talk sense unlike othere.
    So rest assured, no one forces me into anyhting…

    Ashish Reply:

    Azhar Hussein,
    Defending faith is not the same as defending or criticizing state policy; but then, only an Indian would know it!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shan,,

    I think we dont have to right to start thinking from their perspective as to what is good or bad for them. The basic point of democracy is the idea that I have a right to be wrong……. And nobody should force what he thinks is right on me……

    If we are concerned that independent Kashmir would not be able to survive on its own,, then we could help it at that time, as and when they ask for help. simple is it not? But FACT is that we dont want to give Kashmir independence not because we are concerned about whether they will survive on their own, but rather because we treat it as our real estate—-BAAP KA MAAL—fathers property— some god given right over kashmir.

    Kashmir is with us only because we are string and they are weak…… Its as simle as that

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, I think the word NO which I thought ihad written but failed to type in gives a totally different perspective to what i meant . So the correct opening lines will be I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE IDEA KASHMIRIS WANT INDEPENCE.

    Vinay Reply:

    Say, we hold a referendum. In that, there is a probability of Kashmir getting separated or wanting to be with Pakistan (whatever is the percentage of probability be). You may be right, Indian government is not really concerned with what happens to independent Kashmir. But at least, it has to worry about the rest of the Muslims living in India.

    Fact is, partition has not divided us as Pakistan and Hindustan. We got divided as Pakistan and India. We still have 15% muslim community living with us.

    Won’t it (separation) gives food for Hindu extremists in India ? They would say: “After having them (Kashmiris/Muslims) for so long, after providing all the support for decades, they still
    never became one with us. What is the guarantee about the rest of the community living in India?” People make provocative speeches for political mileage. Then, there could be Kashmir in every town. There is no way we can shield the muslim community living with us from the after effects of referendum. What if Bal Thakre say, he wants a separate state for Hindus free from muslims – can India afford to do that?

    Whom should Indian government could favor? Kashmiri Muslims or rest of the Muslim community? One of them have to suffer (if Kashmiris consider, being with India is suffering).

    Only way to give away Kashmir could be, not letting it go because of religious reasons. (otherwise, Hindutva group would say Muslims always get Islamic state (full ownership) and Hindus get secular state (shared ownership)). Make sure, Kashmiri Pandits get their respect back in an independent Kashmir.

    I can understand the hesitation of Indian government to hold referendum. There are lot of
    repercussions to be considered. But the reason for Hurriyath not to participate in the election? If it wins, it gets a political mileage. If it looses, its image of true representatives of
    Kashmir will come down. That is not a big damage to Kashmir or India (except for the party).

    Anyway, after all these thoughts also, I still have this filmy dream of referendum happens and
    Kashmir chooses to be with us:-) In reality they have seen how rosy their other options are.
    (Swat Valley and Afghanistan).

    Sam Reply:

    Pakistan is not the same as in 1947.

    It is divided into 2.
    As a successor of east pakistan, even Bangladesh can have a claim on Kashmir.

    this is an internationally recognized law.
    (whether B’desh wants it or not, is a different issue).

    Legally they have a claim.

    Geographic contiguity is not the only basis of forming pakistan.
    B’desh is closer to Kashmir, than W.Pakistan (to B’desh)..

    Ishmart Alec Reply:

    thought the quality of authors thought might have improved. its the same rhetoric ….

    Farooq Shah Reply:

    An honest look into the history suggests India grabbed Kashmir with deceit and deception. That India calls Kashmir an ‘integral’ part time and time again is indicative of the fact that it knows Kashmir is not its integral part. Why doesn’t India call UP or Delhi an integral part, why does it need to say it for Kashmir only. There’ll be a time when the honest Indians like Arundhati Roy will rise against their own country with an argument that Kashmirs have suffered the most and they should be given what they want. No Indian would like the streets of Kashmir be bathed in blood.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Man, you guys are masters of deceit! Two sided craps

    We call Kashmir integral, because you guys encroach all the time..and that we cannot let it go because it is an intgeral part.. It will be same if West bengal is attacked by Bengla Desh or a northern border is attacked by China.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Farooq Shah , it was COMPLETELY LEGALLY by the INSTRUMENT OF ACSENSION, WHEREBY HARI SINGH SIGNED THE PAPERS.Unlike POK which was smash and grab like the Razzia.and not like TIBET.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    When was Kashmir not a part of India ? Even Pakistan was a part of India, so how can Kashmir Not be a part of India at any stage ? How can you ‘grab’ something thats already a part of your territory ? I dont understand – can someone explain ?

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Farooqbhai, the beauty of being an activist like Arundhati is that you never have to take responsibility for anything.

    They will keep supporting you but never take part in elections to bring about change. Arundhati will never actually do anything to solve your issue, she will be first to tell you who’s wrong but the last to actually do whats right.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    so how did pakistan grab POK ?

    through referendum or the ruler’s permission ?

    as per the new survey, more people in POK want to independant than indian kashmir.

    so please let POK be free.
    let us make it azad and bring it back to india.

    [Reply]

    Kishan Reply:

    Human Rights is one very convenient stick that can be used to beat any security agency with. The “Violations” happen everywhere, even in the USA, the less said about the communist and Muslim countries the better. Every security agency faces situations where it has to resort to firing, context of every event has to be seen before crying “Human Right Violation”.
    The officers in charge of the security agencies in Kashmir must be really stupid after so many years experience of the situation if they resort to unprovoked firing.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @krishnan

    Security forces should be given all leeway to accomplish a successful mission. We have to stop portraying them as “excessive force users’ or people bent on killing civilians. Civilians will get killed; they should do everything to prevent/minimie civilian casualties

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I am sure thats what the terrorist trainers of Ajmal Kasab told him and his colleagues on their mission in Mumbai or for that matter what the trainers of the people on the 9/11 mission would have told them as well….

    Apply the same standards to one and all…. If it was wrong for Britain to rule us without our consent then its wrong for us to rule others without their consent.

    KD Reply:

    Many in Britain dont like their current rulers too. May be Britain should leave the UK alone then….perhaps try some stone pelting first ?

    Anyone who knows the geographical distribution of the people’s opinion in Kashmir will tell you that the valley is where the maximum support for freedom lies. You cannot carve this valley out of the rest of Kashmir.

  • syed

    A recent survey in Kashmir revealed that only 2% of the population wanted to join Pakistan. This is something we should built up on.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Light at the end of the tunnel, Syed?

    Do you have any rough distribution between various sects? Is there a latrger Sufi/Shia influence in Kashmirr?

    I remeber reading few years after the Kargil war that a sect of Muslim (It was not Shia or Sunni, but more of a “homegrown” variety) shepherds first noticed the Pakistani encroachment and reported to the checkpost authorities.

    [Reply]

    hindblogger Reply:

    Kargil was ****- BJP tried to use the Congress funda and failed. Not only shepherds but military also warned Delhi- but they wanted this conflict.

    Now Kargil **** is coming out from bookshelves of army and we all knows that how bad it is.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    How we twist facts to our likings. When was last time you heard people in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir demanding separation from Pakistan, and in our part they have been fighting to get rid of us. Who is occupied? Who is dissatisfied? 64% literacy rate 2004 Census in POK

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    So, Mr Indian, what are you saying? Pakistanis are happy with Pakistan’s directions?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Before getting too excited please understand the role of PAKISTAN. When BHUTTO WAS HANGED, there was clamour and slogans in Srinagar to wrest PAkistani Kashmir back into India’s folds.

    [Reply]

  • http://dittoo ramchandran

    dear sir,present of any country does not allow its kids or grand kids to shit on their bodied
    howsoever they may be dear to them.muslims of kashmir who want democracy should by force sent
    to pak occupied kashmir to test pak democracy,then they will know the meaning of indian
    fanatical bookish democracy which pampers all except hindus,in the name of real democracy
    which politicians exploit for their personal gains,this is in nutshell indian democracy.it is not
    understood how long this cancer is going to be toleretd,most probably till some muslim rulers
    iraq,iran mesopotomia do not come and invade india,their does not appear to be any hope
    with the existing NAPUSAK POLITICIAN RULERS

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  • abrar

    While the blog article seems like a self appeasement for a one sided indian view,the reality on the ground has been the opposite.

    No insurgency or rebellion can last 20 plus years without popular support. You cannot impose Indian stamp on a state still recognised as a dispute in the world forums.

    While you may criticise the situation in Azad Kashmir,can you suggest how many in that portion will be willing to give a vote for India? Has their been an insurgency in Azad kashmir,similar to the one in Indian ‘controlled’ kashmir.Why not?

    Over 65000 casualties have resulted in Indian controlled kashmir. You have not even mentioned this huge loss of human lives that has affected so many families in the troubled land.

    Indian opinion makers,media and social groups have to stand up and be counted to pressure their govement to stop this farce of kashmir remains with India by any means possible.

    You never had kashmir ,it was some so called kashmiri leaders to betrayed their nation for India.

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    KD Reply:

    When was Kashmir a country by itself ? By your logic, YOU never had Kashmir either.

    The question of who has Kashmir is unanswerable. Its like asking how many different pieces can a huge area of land be divided into and who owns each piece. Once you have Kashmir, some sect will want its own piece of Kashmir. Is having an ‘independent’ Kashmir good for the people of Kashmir ? This question cannot be answered by stone pelting on the streets. Was Kashmir ever NOT India ? Was India ever absent from Kashmir ? If not, how can you call it occupied ? If India has occupied Kashmir, by that logic so have you.

    The answer to your question about why no terrorism in PoK is simple: 1. India doesnt send terrorists across the border 2. India doesnt symbolise islamic brotherhood, which is the main reason claimed by Hurriyat for why Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. 3. PoK and Pakistan help Kashmiris fight and kill Indian forces. The last thing you want as a ‘freedom supporting’ Kashmiri is to antagonize your ‘mai-baaps’ on the other side of the border.

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    ramesh Reply:

    @all readers,for a moment say the situation was reversed,India was a muslim sharia toting country and the kasmiri pandits were fighting for autonomy,how would the sharia government handle this predicament?How have the muslims in the pak have handled their minority problems or for that matter how the other muslim countries treat their minorities.

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    S Singh Reply:

    It is an interesting question. Lets see what our secularists say.

  • http://hindblogger.wordpress.com hindblogger

    I do not think people of Kashmir needs anything special state with any special acts. But Delhi won’t allow to have peace.
    There are two dimensions – [1] What people wants [2] What Delhi wants

    Delhi will never let it get cooled off…and people are suffering, people will keep on dying…who cares ?
    Delhi has done same experiemnt with Punjab, is doing same with Maoists and same with Kashmir.
    More than half of India is reeling under violence and fear…and we are being told ALL IS WELL

    KAshmir is piece of cake for India to solve…but Delhi do not want to do it.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    How do u propose Delhi solve it

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  • majid

    It is in our genetics of us kashmiris to seek independence from india.we would prefer to die of starvation in independence rather than living with india which give us golden roads.The economic figures projected in the article are truely uncoorect.

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    shan Reply:

    @majid, a small correction , instead of using the word our , it would to correct to use the word mine., surely all those who turned up during the elections did it in favour of indian democracy.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    I can tell you just had your dinner before writing this !

    Think about those who lost their sons in this meaningless war – the soldier’s mother and the Kashmiri’s mother. Apparently there are still ~400 of such sons waiting across the border to come to Kashmir and get killed in some forests.

    It is one thing to sound maverick when you have good food to eat, your son isnt hiding in the forests waiting to be killed and your are enjoying the fruits of this information age with internet and everything.

    It is quite another thing to bear the weight of a young son’s mayyat for some fake fight for independence when most of the ‘freedom fighting’ leaders have sent their sons/daughters to UK and USA for higher education. Yaseen Mallik only likes India when he gets high-quality medical care for his kidney dialysis in Delhi !

    [Reply]

  • Peter

    Firstly this is an arm-chair analyst’s analysis. Kashmir, more specifically the Valley does not exist in a vaccum. There has been no menton of the Jihad launched by 1989 which is aided and abetted to this day by the various terror groups nurtured by ISI. There has been no mention of the corrupt and unprincipled politicians who encourage street protests and stone pelters against the Kashmri government . The Omar Farooq government has not had one peaceful day thanks to all these motley groups who failed to win any democratic representation. There has been no mention of the genocide of non-Muslim Kashmiris especially the Pandit migration (This has annhilaed the Kashmiri Pandit culture) . The Valley is now the only place in India which is devoid of any diversity, a good reason for the rise of Wahabism as opposed to Sufism in the Valley. Finally, the safety of 1.2 billion Indians can only be guaranteed by a peaceful Kashmir. The time for debate is over. Of all the South Asians, the Kashmiri’s probably have the most politcal rights and regional autonomy. Its time the Indian government adopts a tougher posture against the domestic and foreign elements which encourage secessionism and mislead the Kashmiri’s into a dark future.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Peter

    On the point! See my comments (second from top). The jehadis sent by Mrs Bhutto/Hamid Gul set the stage and unfortunately dragged India into an attrition game.

    It is time India adopts a tougher posture as you said; collateral damage will happen, human rights people will shed their tears, However, once and for all the problem has to be fixed, so the energy and resources spent on the wesstern front can eb used for schools and colleges.

    The blessing of India is democracy. The curse is we do not have leaders; but politicians. And the first sin was Pandit Nehru in his magnanimity keeping Kashmoir sepaarte, preventing migration and integration as it happened in all other major cities in india.

    It will be a quite intersting comparison where india would be now had Sardar Vallabhai Patel been the first Prime Minister of India – no Kashmir issue, no states based on languages, no fabian socialism, we would have achieved teh current economic standards 30 years ago! And possibly no Iindira Gandhi as Prime Minister and no Sonia Gandhi– that in itself would have been great for Indian democracy!

    Did Sardar Patel even have a family other than the larger Indian family?

    [Reply]

  • Gaffar

    Mr Zia,
    You have fudged the data to back your opinion. So makes you an incredible journalist to be taken seriously. How come a journalist can be trustworthy when he puts the data out of context.
    Firstly you talk about the HDI of Pakistan; it is not 151 but 141 true one rank behind Yemen. But why don’t mentions India’s HD1 rank, it is not one can boast about, 134 two ranks down from it small neighbour Bhutan. If you check it with previous ranks, Pakistan has imprived whereas India is the same as it previous. Pakistan’s HDI is 0.572 and India’s 0.612, which doesn’t look something world’s second largest growing economy should feel proud of. And why you forget to talk about the other denominators discussed in the UN’s same HDI report. Pakistan is much ahead at 117 number while as India is at 128. Do you know there is something called world hunger index would you like to know Indian ranking, it is 66 while as Pakistan stands at 61. What about Gini Index, which talks about rich poor ratio. For India it is 36.8 where as Pakistn’s is 30.6. So do not misuse the figures out of context. Going according to your logic Pakistan is not doing bad given the anarchy and situation going on there so the logic speaks against your reason if decided on that.
    Secondly you make comparison between Pakistani Kashmir and Orisa, do you know the size of Pakistani Kashmir and the geographic terrain it is in. If you have to compare the economic condition of that part of Pakistan don’t compare it by the size of economy but other index scientifically accepted. See the literacy rate of that part of Kashmir which is more than 65%. Just compare it with three districts of Kashmir on this side of Kashmir having same geographic terrain and other conditions, like Uri, Kupwara and Doda and you will shocked to see how for that of Kashmir is better and developed.
    When you talk of the elections in Pakistan Kashmir, why you forget that each time India holds elections in Kashmir it imprisons all the pro-freedom leaders. Why is not India allowing people to fight elections who don’t accept India constitution and same is the case with Pakistan.
    You talking about Pakistan will “wolf down” Kashmir if given freedom, has that happened with Nepal despite and SriLanka despite India endless efforts to do so or for that matter, to Afghanistan to Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Mehraj Dar Reply:

    I support the viewpoint of the author, which is neutral in its manner. Its KASHMIRIS who suffer at the hands of Indian security forces and not mainstream politicians or separatists. The separatists call for shutdown or protests and mainstream politicians order police to kill protesting youth… killing Kashmiris inbetween.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Mehraj, Mia you were probably Dhar, before converting to Islam. You are a kashmiri, and if it was Dhar then also? bramhins. Why cant you enlighten us the blof readers by a” insider’s ” viewpoint , as also suggest ways to get out of this imbroglio.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Gaffar

    Pakistan is not a failed state; it is the modern day switzerland–happy?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Everyone knows how muslims in pakistan stole all the properties of Sikh/Hindus and became rich.

    after that, they are begging US to give money for Jihad in Afghanistan..
    first time they take money from US and give to jihadists.
    second time, they take money from US to let US kill jihadists.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Sam despite your other posting which falls just a little short of ludicrous , THIS IS ONE IS EXTREEMELY CLOSE TO REALITY.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    which of my postings are ludicrous ?
    (i will explain, if you tell which ones are )

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    Abrar these same scientists advocated Indian intervention because we Indians (sic) had to help East Pakistanis from the West Pakistanis. Can you believe 99% of our country believes that and what they don’t want to believe we wanted to cut Pakistan into pieces and succeeded. But the same nincumpoops can’t believe Pakistan is doing the same in Kashmir. The BIG difference is that there is a UN ressolution for plebecite in Kashmir and for East Pakistan no such resolution existed.

    Gopi is advocating that India should pull all levers, but does not the guts to digest when the other side (Kashmiris) pull levers to save their land. Yes Mr. Gopi their LAND

    Sam Reply:

    @arun
    do you know about 3 million people butchered by pak army ?
    do you know 10 million refugees in india from bangladesh ?

    that is nothing comparable to kashmir..

    when 10 million people from kashmir go to pak and 3 million are killed, then let’s talk..

    abrar Reply:

    You just lost the credibility to discuss the issue with the intention you just showed.

    Sam Reply:

    well facts are facts..

    unfortunately the whole world knows about pakistani savagery in Bangladesh.

    shan Reply:

    @Gaffar, leave aside kashmir (pak side), IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF PAKISTAN , THERE HAVE BEEN SPORADIC INSTANCES AND PERIODS OF DEMOCRACY , MOST OF ITS SIXTY THREE YEARS POST INDEPENDENCE HAS BEEN MILITARY DICTATORSHIP. Now it is possible kashmiris like you prefer MILITARY DICTATORSHIP , which India cannot provide.

    [Reply]

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    I hope my fellow countrymen and women will read and wakeup and have the guts to admit what a terrible we have been doing Kashmir.

    Shame on us for supporting this

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    when the butchering and savage actions of pak army turned bangladeshis to run over to india.
    (10 million left to india)..

    if this is as terrible as you claim,,,

    why are kashmir muslims not going over to pok ?

    answer: thousands of trained jihadi from all over muslim world are sent to India by Pakis.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Gaffarbhai,

    Its not like you have pasted the entire report in your response. Your reply is also a convenient selection of statistics.

    In any case, it doesnt matter how good or bad Pakistan is. It aint getting Kashmir anytime soon ……..or for that matter, anytime !

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    Our side Kasmiris are better off then the so called azad ones on the other side.our side has amuslim as the c.m.,and the financial assistance they get would be enough for any state.They have spacial protections such as no other indians can work or invest in this state.Even nature has been very kind and giving to them.what more do they want,what will independence bring they do not have.only thing missing is the sharia as some say,but what has sharia brought in Pakistan,misery,death and distruction only.When no one is left to fight they fight and kill themselvesThe mullhas and the leaders are to blame in kashmir ,they use peoples emotional attachment to religion to extract power for themselves.they will become a cesspool of acountry like our neighbours and then the next other indian muslims will be inspired to do another pakistan.When the present lot of kasmiri leaders pass away to make way for fresh lot who have seen the wisdom of their ways, only then change will come.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Why do Muslims always want to secede? In Urguyar, they wanted to get out of China (good luck!). In chechnya, they want to get out of Russia.

    Is it so difficult for them to live with others? What makes it so difficult? It is always a region, or a special this or a special that — cant they just live with others

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    They cannot live with Kafirs, unless they control the govt.

    So it was ok for Mughals to rule parts of india (even though muslims are minority), but if they are minority and not in power they need a separate country..

    it is the same story everywhere..

    [Reply]

    Naveed Reply:

    The only honorable and respectable way forward is for Kashmiris to get their freedom. India can not keep Kashmiris with them with gun pointed at them Sooner than later Kashmiris will gain their freedom. That is inevitable. Does India want that its leaders, Military Personnel and Civilian Officers be dragged in International Criminal Courts? What is happening in Kashmir is worse than what Nazis did to Jews during 2nd world war.

    India position is immoral, it is untenable. Indian Democracy is a sham. In Kashmir Indian Military is the law. Indian Military has immunity from all crimes. Indian Military uses those powers to kill, torture and rape Kashmirs. World Agencies must look at India’s role in Kashnmir, more appropriately called Kashnmir Concentration Camp.

    [Reply]

    ALI Reply:

    wel reading Mr Zia’s comments amuzed me a lot although factualy he may be right there as kashmiri there is no doubt in my mind that india economicaly,militarily,internationaly a powerful state having very strong insistutions and on other side pakistan is much poor and weaker state but what all these things have to do with the ongoing freedom struggle in indian occupied kashmir that without any qouestion is truely an indigenious movement .the problam with indian mind set is that it has always taken the kashmir issue as a problem created by so pakistani sponsered terrorism and that is when real problem starts takin place india must not forget that it was india only india who took kashmir issue to UNO it was their prime minister NEHRU who on the floor of united nation promised kashmir’s a plebecite to me the issue of kashmir has nothing to do with economics,jobs,development it is truely an ideological issue kashmiris have never accepted india as their country and when some deep rooted emotions are involved the world’s best argument like Mr Zia’s has to fell apart if democracy in AJK is a myth i am sorry it is same here in kashmir let me tel how if a state chief minister mr OMAR is asking for the revokation of AFSPA why centre is resisting and calling the state govt a democractic one is also not true in every election that took place in valley since 80’s the voters turn out has not been more then 20% it is the delhi who decides who vil be on a chair in srinagar quite same as it happens in AJK so not a good comparision that MR Zia has made …also if only development has to be criteria for any community ,nation or tribe to seek freedom then i must say here that the whole struggle of Mr Gandi’s for the independant india was a mistake because GREAT Britian at that time was a world power much developed then indian sub continet ….GO INDIA GO BACK LEAVE OUR KASHMIR

    KD Reply:

    These are all weak arguments with little substance, largely driven by strong emotions –

    1. The argument about ‘truly indigenous movement’ doesnt have any substance outside the valley, where hurriyat can whip-up islamic brotherhood mixed in azadi sentiments through masjid loudspeakers. The azadi sentiment is not representative of Kashmir as a whole.

    2. To say that Kashmir issue is a problem created by Pakistan-sponsored terrorism, is like saying that smoking causes cancer. There may be genetic factors involved, but if you the primary trigger and sustenance of cancer can be attributed to smoking and smoking only. Without Pakistani fuel in this fire, the fire wouldnt last very long. In that sense, you cannot compare the Kashmiri issue with the Indian freedom movement. In fact, it cannot be called an indigenous movement due to its valley-specific support and external means of sustenance.

    3. The Center can absolutely resist revokation of AFSPA even if Omar asks for it. It doesnt, in any way, imply that democracy in Kashmir is a myth. The people of Kashmir, with 65% participation in the recent elections as monitored by independent observers, decided who will rule them. Unlike the 80s where soldiers forced people to vote and the elections were rigged by India, no such thing happened in the recent elections.

    4. Development is not a critieria for any Indian state to remain or secede from India. In fact, Indian territorial integrity is non-negotiable so there is no criteria or possibility of India’s territorial integrity to be compromised. The most backward ignored area of India will remain in India and so will the most developed one.

    5. Great Britain was a world power when India fought its freedom, but that was largely because it had occupied rich countries like India. The same cannot be said about India in Kashmir, unfortunately or fortunately !

    I am writing this after I read about triple blasts in a sufi shrine in Pakistan ……A SUFI SHRINE !!!!! Kashmir needs to wake up before its too late !

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Ali

    So what? Nehru went to UN. So, what?

    Geopolitics and political realities change over time. China was a nobody in 1947. Soviet union was strong. Israel was not born (or just born)..

    Kashmir will continue as an integral part of India; at gunpoint if needed. It is not just an issue of 5 million people; it is an issue of 1.1 billion people. So, sacricing we must, if we have to.

    It is the cross border ISI/PAaksitani terrorism that took a fringe movement into a disastrous movement for teh Kashmiri people. Unfortunately, our government has not done a good job in crushing terrorism. Terrorism has to be crushed .

    It is not an issue of moraality vs immoorality . Tell that to the Chinese who took over Tibet.

    Sam Reply:

    Nehru went to UN to get rid of Taliban like terrorists who were aided by pak army.

    once that happens and pakistan is in the same shape and form as in 1948

    we can talk..

    until then Pak take your hands off..

    Kumaraguru Bhagavatula Reply:

    Dear Mr. Ali:

    I am an academician on sabbatical and I have been studying the root causes for the challenges faced by both Kashmir and Pakistan. You are absolutely right in claiming that it was Nehru who referred Kashmir Issue to the UNO. As any dispassionate assessor of how the situation got played-out then would have observed, the UN had then asked both India and Pakistan to withdraw their forces so that a free and fair plebiscite could be held under its aegis. It was indeed Pakistan that refused to withdraw and India had no other option but to stay-put.

    Plebiscite was indeed relevant at that point in time and everyone who was concerned & mattered had known that Shaikh Abdullah and Nehru would have won hands-down and Pakistan would have lost credibility completely. That’s history very few care to remember…Truth is bitter! Now you can’t have a plebiscite arbitrarily. The present geo-political and strategic scenarios & implications have to be considered.

    Unfortunately, today’s Pakistan, while facing tremendous challenges and destabilising forces within, hinges its future to the ‘Resolution of the Kashmir Issue’ – that is well outside of its Centre of Gravity – that is why it is so imbalanced.

    The Kashmiris have to be pragmatic not dogmatic. The evident Wahhabi tendencies would eventually destroy its unique culture. Have dispassionate dialogues with the Government of India. Insist on unbiased representation – even from POK… Keep Pakistan out. Workout a mutually beneficial arrangement within the Republic of India…for guaranteed long-term security, peace and prosperity…

    Best Wishes

    KB

    SKChadha Reply:

    I admire you Zia for your wits making individuals to vent out their feelings irrespective of their religion, cast or creed. I am not sure, whether in your blog you are representing voice of Kashmiri or a Muslim or a separatists or a terrorist or just playing with sentiments of all of us?
    @ Naveed
    Dear Naveed – We have survived as democracy due to our religious tolerance and providing rights and liberties to fellow citizens to vent out their feelings in a democratic way. As long as long, enjoyment of such rights and liberties by one does not disturb social order or affect the life and liberty of fellow citizens. The entire world recognizes this beauty of our Constitution and is probably the cause of our unity. The blog and comments make me feel proud that no one can fool citizenry of this country or J&K anymore. The silent democratic majority in J&K is also well aware and may be enjoying these endless and confusing details.
    The need in J&K of Army and special powers to them is only to protect silent democratic majority from stone pelting hooligans on streets, from people who indulge in bandhs disturbing social life, from people those hiding behind the religion (whether Islam or Hinduism) and preaching others secular values and also from leaders who shout Hurriyat at the pitch of their voice and never represented their credentials in any elections. Few people are also denigrating the beautiful teachings of tolerance in Islam and simultaneously indulge in subversive activities in the name of Islam. Our neighbors, who have not seen secularism or democracy in last 63 years, can neither understand nor enjoy such debates. Isn’t it, comedy of errors, that a beautiful neighboring country harping on a beautiful religion, in the absence of such small enjoyments, has come to the brink of collapse ….. !!!
    We moan, groan, fight and sacrifice some of our personal rights for social order. These sacrifices are at all levels individual to family to neighborhood to community to states and so on. Even as a follower of our faith we all sacrifice certain rights. Yes, we all denounce crimes, excesses or errors, more so, if they are committed by men in uniform with full mens rea ? Naveed Sahib, forget about Concetration Kemps of Nazis or Kashmir.Hamari Dua a Khuda Aapko FATA, NWFP and Afganistan Jaisee Jannat Nosh Farmaye. Ameen…!!!

  • Vinay

    Human right activists are bit strange. When Veerappan (from Tamilnadu) who had killed around 200 police and forest officers, poached 200 elephants, and smuggled ivory and sandalwood was killed(?) in an encounter,- they said the police had acted outside the rules to eliminate Veerappan. So rules are there for police and army. Not for a bandit or a terrorist. Death of common people due to violence in Kashmir is really unfortunate. But don’t just look at the wrong doings by army, throw some light on wrong doings of terrorists in this valley too.

    They have not let any educational institution prosper (abducting and killing of V.C of Kashmir University and his secretary in 90s). Major companies are scared to invest in the valley because
    of the induced terror ( General Manager of HMT, Srinagar was abducted and tortured to death in 90).Finally these things result in unemployment for the youth and government of India will be blamed for it. What is the role of militants then? Don’t the people of Kashmir know, who is behind this?

    Well, Indian government might be nervous to go for mandate in Kashmir. But neither Hurriyat leaders are confident that Kashmiris want separation. Let them keep their party manifesto (which say they don’t want to be part of India), but if they have guts they should stand in election to prove their popularity. If they win, they can declare the world about the verdict of Kashmir. The argument of, they only contest in free Kashmir (it is anyway a free election) is mere escapism.

    In states like Tamilnadu (in fact most of the Indian states), people have to choose between bad and worse. When they want to kick the ruling party, they will bring back the opposition party. Not that they love the opposition party, but that is the only way they can vent their frustration out with the ruling party. If a similar thing happens in Kashmir, if people vote for PDP instead of National Conference, should that mean they are supporting Pak ?

    Yes, when Gilani holds rallies, lot of people turn up. If you can make provocative speeches(whether it is Gilani or Raj Thakre), you are bound to attract couple of thousands of people as
    audience. Some of them might throw stones and shout against Indian administration. But does that mean, he is accepted as the leader by whole Kashmir? Let him prove it.

    Vinay Katiyar makes equally influential (!?) speech as Gilani, his speech also attracts
    thousands of people. At the end, he did not win the election in Ayodhya. It is difficult to read,
    what is the voice of silent majority without an election.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Vinay, very pursuasive argument, but sadly the world doesn’t operate that way, headlines and the constant irritant form a neighbour and the enemy within all can lead to a slippery path with more violence, more deprivation ,the cycle feeds on itself

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear vinay,

    human rights activists (HRA) are not strange, its just that you are not getting a simple point. Human rights activists are part of civil society who are trying to tell civil society and the governments about the attrocities that are committed by them, because they want a better society.

    HRA do condemn the acts of terrorists, but they are there mainly to point a mirror on us, because they are part of us….. Pinpointing the faults of oneself or ones own people is more courageous, and a more moral thing to do, than condemning the acts of others. Primarily because, acts of violence done by others are easily apreciated by everyone….there is no need fos special organizations to do that job… One’s one crimes are not easily accepted by oneself.

    For instance if you slapped me then I and people connected to me will easily and quickly condemn it, they will realize that it was a wrong act on your part. On the other hand, If I slapped you then my relatives and people near to me would start making excuses.. oh vinay did this,did that etc and so he invited it on himself… else Bobby would never do such a thing…. he is so nice etc etc….hope u get the point.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Pinpointing the faults of ones own people may be an act of courage in oppressed countries, but not in open societies like India or USA. In US, Frankenstein can oppose the US policy of
    supporting Israel. But, it could have been suicidal for a person in Germany to oppose killing of
    Jews.

    Similarly, it was not easy for Taslima Nazreen to speak about the condition of minority people in her country (she is still in exile), where as it is too easy for Arundhati Roy to sympathize about Naxalites and Kashmiri terrorists/freedom fighters(!?). After all, she is not loosing anything but gaining popularity.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    People in Kashmir hate us, period. What part of hate don’t you people understand? Too much wrong has been done to mend fences. More Pakistani flags on rooftops on Aurgust 14 than on the 15th, this sends a clear message. More people use as Pakistani Standard Time than our time? Its the mindset, no amount of badmouthing Pakistan will change that.

    THEY DON’T WANT TO LIVE WITH US, IT IS THEIR CHOICE AND IT IS THEIR STATE.

    That is why our people are scared of holding referendum, giving them the choice to decide. They have already made the choice, but it is just a matter of time.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Arun, But why do they turn up in huge numbers during elections

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Thats very easy to undersand, ……in an election they can vote for some one, who may be able to do a better job at administration, WITHIN THE LIMITED FRAMEWORK THEY HAVE. That is not an argument that they do not want independence…. The argument would have made sense, if Independence was offered as a choice as part of elections, and they preferred to not be independent.

    I think this debate is meaningless. Kashmir is a historic problem, whether one accepts it or not….. Something left over from independence. Now I think its high time, that GoI has a referendum, and settles the issue….. what point is there in keeping people forcefully with us? If as Syed says, there are people who do not want independence, then a referendum, would reveal that.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I think there is no moral ground on which 7,00,000 military troops can be used to keep a population under control. Its indefensible. Its a sure shot recipe for misuse of power by military….. Its going to happen, and the only solution is to remove them from there. Look all one has to ask is how would u like it, if in say ur city, ur travel is restricted and ur houses are randomly checked, by some forces?

    There are several reports by HRA on human rights violations by security forces in Kashmir, and its very obvious that given the situation there, is going to happen. So the only solution is to remove the troops at the earliest, else we are becoming what the US is in Iraq- an occupation army.

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, to reverse your argument , why can’t the separatist contest the election with the banner that with the voting for them they want to sent the message that they want independence and their only plank in the election is Azadi. Who is stopping them from doing it.

    Sam Reply:

    who said it is their state ..

    they already got POK.
    muslims can leave to that place if they do not want to live with india.

    that is the stand Indian govt should take..

    even bangladesh can claim part of Kashmir..

    before you say it is crazy, the distance between them and West pakistan is same as Bangladesh and Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >before you say it is crazy, the distance between them (Bangladesh) and West pakistan is same as Bangladesh and Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Sam
    Fair skinned Kashmiri would never like to be a part of Bangladesh anyway. In this world, colour racism beats other religion biases. Many of the Pakistani men feel they are descended from Persians and Arabs and look down dark coloured Hindus or Mohajirs. (When Sonia Gandhi became a prominent figure, my friend remarked. Would it have been this easy, if she was an African?). We never ask the question, whom are Kashmiri Muslim close to? Fair muslims in Pak or dark muslims living in rest of India (though both are muslims).

    Anyway, colour bias is a different matter. Nobody is happy with the current situation in Kashmir where people are being killed for no reason. But what options would they have chosen? Going back to 1980s Kashmir is worse than being part of current Pakistan or independent(?) Afghanistan, is it ? Wait, before that, will anybody ask them to choose?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Bangladesh claiming part of kashmir could be legally valid.

    (whether kashmiri’s want to be or not, is a different and valid issue)…

    or we should take pakistan’s claim as valid , only if it the same pakistan as in 1947.
    (let them merge with B’desh again, then come back and make a claim)..

  • abrar

    Arun Krishnamurty is the only realist from the indian side.He gives facts of why India needs to let go of kashmir while others seem to be in denial. and fail to provide facts for their view.

    One post says why do they turn up for elections?, some are forced to..as per so many reports. while others say they are doing so for bread and butter issues.

    Another poster Sam says “, the distance between them(kashmir) and West pakistan is same as Bangladesh and Kashmir. Have you seen the map of kashmir,it is physically connected to Pakistans north east. BanglaDesh is over approx 1200 KM from kashmir.

    The gulf between kashmir and india is so wide now that the only viable solution is a referendum or outright independence.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Have you seen the map of kashmir,it is physically connected to Pakistans north east. BanglaDesh >is over approx 1200 KM from kashmir.

    Have seen the map of Pakistan and Bangladesh ?
    they are separated by more than 1200km and still were a same country..

    if pakistan could exist with east & west wing (so far apart), Bangladesh has legitimate right to get a piece of Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Arbar

    A child may want to eat a lot of sugary and fatty stuff; but parents do not allow. He may not want to go to school; but parents will force.

    While that analogy is not the right one when comparing with member states; a country should and will resort to all means including merciless military means to control vital strategic territorries. It may not succeed. But leaving is no option. It simply is not.

    Tell that to China on Tibet and Urguyar.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Pakistanis distribute sweets after killing minority Ahmedi’s.

    the sunni cleric says, ahmedi’s should be killed through courts !!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10431069.stm

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    Our rocket scientist Sam is bringing in Bangladesh, what sorry state of affair. Stick to the topic, like the Americans say, READ MY LIPS, FOR ALL THOSE HAVE THEIR EYES AND EARS SHUT, THEY ARE ALL SAYING AZADI AZADI PERIOD. What part of Azadi our indians don’t understand.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    bangladesh should get part of kashmir..

    why not ?

    geographical contiguity is not the only basis of forming a single country.
    (if that was the case, pakistan would not have east/west wings.)..

    [Reply]

  • abrar

    @Gopi Thomas

    Going by your logic Bangladesh should have stayed with Pakistan and would have, had Indian Army not invaded a soverign country (East pakistan). However we know that majority of the people in East Pakistan wanted independance and deservedly so. Pakistan made huge mistakes in East Pakistan and it alienated the people.

    Are you saying you will support a genocide in kashmir to keep it under Indian control?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    well, it should be under Indian control; and India should pull all levers and should not leave anything unturned.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Genocide will not happen where there is 65% participation in elections.

    India is not Britain and Kashmir is not India.

    India had the balls to fight a mostly non-violent struggle for 100 years. Kashmiris cant do that for 10 years. Dancing on Pakistani AK-47s and stone pelting sponsorships is one thing. Dont mistake it for a freedom struggle.

    India didnt fight using neighbor’s weapons and India didnt have to use religious bigotry to inspire the common man. There were no announcements from masjid tops on fridays in India. In fact, there were no announcements at all. Just one call for Swadeshi.

    A freedom movement takes more than political stone pelting.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Everyone here is deciding upon the future of J&K like nobody’s business. Ever stopped to think what the native Kashmiri wants? A survey commissioned by Saif Al Gaddafi (son of maumar Al Gaddafi of Libya) and conducted by Chatham House, UK on 3700 people on both sides of Kashmir in sept oct 2009 in both Pak Kashmir and Indian Kashmir threw up interesting facts:

    Background: The demographic breakup in Indian Kashmir is :
    Kashmir Valley: About 95% sunni, 14% shia
    Jammu division: 65% hindus, 5% Sikhs, 30% sunnis & shias.
    LEh-77% Buddhists, muslims 14% and hindus 9%
    Kargil- 85% Shia, 10% sunni, 5% buddhist

    The top answers to main problems faced by kashmiris (both Pak & Indian) was unemployment, govt corruption and poor economic development in that order.

    Most interesting issue was options for a political future. Residents were asked which one option they would chose in a vote tomorrow from 6 choices:
    1) Kashmir on both sides of LOC to be independent
    2) To Join India
    3) To join Pakistan
    4) LOC to be made intl. border
    5) India & Pakistan to have jonnt sovereignity
    6) NO change in status quo
    Results:
    1) 43% of all kashmiris wanted independence (44% In Pak Kashmir & 43% in Indian Kashmir. However preference for independence was unevenly distributed in J& K.
    Kashmir valley division wanted independence – between 75 to 95%
    Jammu division – only 1% wanted independence
    Ladakh – Leh 30%, Kargil 20% wanted independence.
    2) For whole of Kashmir to join India: POK – 1%, J&K: 28%
    J& K showed wide variations in their voting patterns: In Kashmir valley 2-22% voted to join India, In Jammu division – 0 to 73 % wanted to join India & Ladakh – 67% in Leh, 80% in Kargil.
    3) For the whole of Kashmir to join Pakistan: POK : 50%, J&K: 2%

    Now the interesting part is that only 2 options were envisaged for undivided Kashmir ie. It shold join either India or Pakistan. But only 1% in POK voted to join Pakistan while 28% voted to join India. Overall 21% of all Kashmiris voted for joining India and 15% for joining Kashmir.
    Hence in case of just 2 options being given to Kashmiris ie. Join either India or Pakistan, Kashmiris overall would prefer to join India

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    correction in third last line: 15% for joining Pakistan

    [Reply]

    Gaffar Reply:

    Can u give a website link for what r u saying. Because all the demographic data is incorrect so how is it possible to believe the survey.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    sorry, another correction: demographics of kashmir valley: about 85% sunni, 14% shia

    [Reply]

    abrar Reply:

    Sorry,please dont make your argument on one study ,many have said the opposite. The ground reality is for everybody to see. You must be watching NDTV ,that should tell you how much popular resentment is aginst Indian occupation.

    Like I said earlier no insurgency can survived more then 20 years without popular support.khalistan movement did not survive as majority probably did not support it.

    You can be a patriot and still support the right of kashmiris or you can be a supporter of oppression and live in denial of the reality kashmir..

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Yeah, let us all just see ndtv and decide. These surveys are just fake ones even when they are carried out by independent groups.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Like I said earlier no insurgency can survived more then 20 years without popular

    ya ya ..
    we know..

    no one survives **** army even for 2 years…
    remember bangladesh..

    **** army is genocidal and butchered 3 million.

    for last 20 yrs, maybe 30,000 kashmiris were killed.
    at this rate, indian army will take 2000 years to achieve what **** army achieved in 2 years.

    we salute you…you are great pak army..!!!

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    Then Syed we should advise our governement to hold the plebiside. The joker from Libya who did this survey, is a joker son of Mohamme Ghaddafi, what does he know about peoples rights. WOW 3700 people were survey, wait till you hold free and fair referendum. Next time Syed you should go to J & K on the Pakistan Independence Day august 14th and then 15th which is ours. Count the Pakistani flags and Indain flags, believe it will be an eye opener for and tell the rest of blind and dumb of our country. And then come and tells us and be honest.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Well, the survey may not be accurate. You could have said it in plain way. Your intolerance shows your true identity (whatever names you keep).

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @AArun Krishnamurthy,
    The problems in Indian Kashmir are entirely in the KASHMIR VALLEY. There is no problem elsewhere. Thats what I am getting at!
    And the Kashmir valley is not representative off the whole of Indian Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Arun Krishnamurty,

    Please explain why you think a survey of 3700 people somehow discredits the findings.

    No emotions, please. Just tell us why you think the survey methodology or the findings thereof are bunkum.

    [Reply]

  • http://hindustantimes shan

    ‘bcerpts from Daily Times Pakistan about KASHMIR, “Since I am in the process of completing a book on the role of the Pakistan military in Pakistani politics, I have had to go through the literature on the Kashmir War as well. I must say that with or without Ayub Khan’s participation, initiating hostilities in Kashmir cost us that state. Mian Iftikharuddin, Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Dr MD Taseer had been tasked to woo Sheikh Abdullah over to the Pakistani point of view on Kashmir. They gave up in despair when scores of tribals from FATA backed by Pakistani regulars and irregulars entered Kashmir in October 47 to liberate it from Dogra rule. The tribal warriors quickly forgot the mission they were supposed to achieve, and succumbed prey to a vice deeply rooted in their culture and history – L@@TING, PILL@GING AND R@PING. Among their victims were some European nuns, presumably engaged in meditation and helping the poor. Why some of our senior officers could not keep such characters under control is of course another matter, but Kashmiri opinion quickly turned against the infiltrators. The r@pe of the nuns brought along international disapprobation and condemnation. The tribal warriors had no clue that something called the Accession Bill privileged the rulers of princely states to determine their state’s relationship with India and Pakistan. That Pakistani officers and jawans were also oblivious of the same is rather astounding. The fact is that even Quaid-e-Azam did not realise the great folly in going into Kashmir. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that he had instructed a number of ministers to help the ‘freedom fighters’ whereas Liaquat and some others were lukewarm in their support. This difference of opinion in the central cabinet comes out clearly in Major (retd) Agha Humayun Amin’s book on the Pakistan Army to which Riaz Shahid has referred in his above-mentioned essay. But here are some arguments to prove that the Kashmir War actually set in motion a process that diminished our claim on Kashmir. Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra had no intention of merging his state with either India or Pakistan. The Pakistan-sponsored insurgency forced him to choose sides. The Indian emissary, VP Menon, arrived in Srinagar with a document that stipulated Indian military help only if the Maharaja signed the Accession Bill. There is some dispute as to the actual date on which it was signed, but the document that the Indians have in their possession gives October 26, 1947 as the date on which it was signed (which was after the attack by tribal invaders…..)
    By Ishtiaq Ahmed, who is a Visiting Research Professor at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS) and the South Asian Studies Programme at the National University of Singapore. He is also Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Stockholm University. He has published extensively on South Asian politics. At ISAS, he is currently working on a book, Is Pakistan a Garrison State? -(Daily Times)log readers etall, found something interesting, nearby.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shan

    Kshmir, in spite of two wars, was a peaceful place until the Pakistanis started their monkey business in the late 1980s, aided and abetted by ISI and triggered by Mrs Bhutto. It is an irony that she became the victim of Islamist militant groups she personally cultivated and allowed to flourish in the late 80s and 90s.

    It is also ironic, like some terrorist equivalent of Frankestein’s monster, the Muslim terrorists turned on the person and the state that had helped them into being.

    [Reply]

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    Gopi baita you forgot our intervention in 1971….I bet your family was celebrating then…..you should thank Indra ghandi for it……AZADI AZADI FOR KASHMIR.

    We are paying the price for our interference in our neighbourhood.

    Two more killled by the security forces

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Last time I checked 1971 war was not a war about Kashmir.

    Come to think of it, only stupid Pakistanis will accept a country with another country in between their west and east parts. JInna’s objective must have been any country, but a country!

    And only a machiavelian, diabolic country like England cann even think about a f– up solution like this!

    But let me tell you, without the division, undivided India would not have been any different from the present day Pakistan – unstable civilian govt, unchecked military, feudal landlords, etc. So, the division, with all its trauma, eventually was a good thing for a larger section of people.

    abrar Reply:

    You are wrong sir ,the movement started in 1930s.Read its history please not the version that your goverment propogandists give you.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Arbar

    Ours is not a military government, neither a dictatorship. Democratically elected members select their leaders to be prime ministers/chief ministers. Parties come and go. Generally they do not get back to power if they have not delivered. Election gimmicks are formulated based on the electoral voter base in a constituency.

    Zillions of newspapers, magazines, books, TV channels exist. Our government has never banned anything like yours has been doing for ever –recently face book, yahoo, google etc.

    There simply is no need for a propaganda; because elections in a large country like India can just be not won through propaganda.

    So, cool down; get a via to India if you have relatives here, and enjoy (and possibly keep your life too) — dont tell me about Gujrat please..

    Sam Reply:

    we even listen to Zakir naik.
    so we have different view points discussed, unlike most pakis.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    » Muslim names still spell suspicion
    » Muslim’s existence is worth no more than contempt.
    »Muslims are second-class citizens,
    » Muslims are subject to a hidden apartheid
    »Fair deal or disintegrate.

    That is what Zia had to say about 7 days ago. All that, and more, primarily because of shortage of right-minded people among Hindus (the Majority..).

    So it isn’t just Kashmir where India has lost the plot, it is pretty much all of India: if we go by the last post.

    Two questions. Am I alone in noticing a 180 degree turn? Why would someone, who believes that India has failed its Muslims, advise Muslims in Kashmir to chose India over Pakistan/Independence?

    Second, will it be unreasonable if a Muslim (especially from Kashmir) concludes that the two articles in question cannot have a single author? Or that the current article is an attempt by the author to keep his ‘Hindu’ bosses happy ?

    Not bad, at all.

    Sam Reply:

    I wish it is the backlash from the readers !!!

    sometimes with extremist idealogies, only hardline strategy works.
    appeasement will never work.

    this is the situation in pakistan (or OIC islamic countries)..
    » non-muslim names still spell suspicion
    » non-Muslim’s existence is worth no more than contempt.
    »non-Muslims are second-class citizens legally
    » non-Muslims are subject to legal apartheid

    Solution: Convert or migrate..

    The question people have to ask is

    Can MUSLIMS be partners in building Secular India ?

    can they overcome their terrorist and traditional image ?

    the whole world is waiting for this (not just india)..

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    this is the situation in pakistan (or OIC islamic countries)..
    » non-muslim names still spell suspicion- can you provide example
    » non-Muslim’s existence is worth no more than contempt.-Example
    »non-Muslims are second-class citizens legally- Example
    » non-Muslims are subject to legal apartheid-Example

    Solution: Convert or migrate..

    The question people have to ask is

    Can MUSLIMS be partners in building Secular India ? Do they have to give up their religion?

    can they overcome their terrorist and traditional image ? Oh really

    the whole world is waiting for this (not just india)..

    S Singh Reply:

    I worked in KSA . In KSA

    1) You cannot bring any pictures of Gods (Krishna, Jesus etc)
    2) You cannot hang it inside ur house
    3) you cannot build temples, churches etc
    4)You have a different color driving permita nd otehr ID different from Muslims

    I read an interesting fact in Dawn newspaper In connectiuon with the Ahmadiya massacre by Sunni/Salafi Muslims in Pakistan, It seems anybody applying for passport there have to agree to a statement that Ahamadiyas are not Muslims.

    Sam Reply:

    >Can MUSLIMS be partners in building Secular India ? Do they have to give up their religion?

    It is upto to them to decide to work and build a Secular India or islamic theocracy.

    Sam Reply:

    “Wherever there are Christians there’s moral decline” and “Were it not for the presence of Muslims in Palestine, Palestine would have become like Paris. One big brothel.”

    http://story.irishsun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/2411cd3571b4f088/id/652809/cs/1/

    Sam Reply:

    Planned stoning to death of young mother in East Azerbaijan Province

    http://www.wluml.org/node/6419

    Maybe all the religious minded muslims from India can go there and throw the first stone
    (& uphold islamic traditions)..

    Sam Reply:

    >Planned stoning to death of young mother in East Azerbaijan Province

    >http://www.wluml.org/node/6419

    Shouldn’t we have Sharia law for muslims only in criminal matters also ?

    Why is sharia law limited to civil/religious issues for muslims.

    I like to see it for criminal aspects.
    Cut off hands, legs, eyes, stone them to death ??

    why are muslims not clamoring for this aspect
    (should they be complaining about secular state and their lack of freedom to practice these )

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    Excerpts from ‘The Myth of Indian Claim to JAMMU AND KASHMIR ––A REAPPRAISAL’

    by Alistair Lamb

    THE INDIAN CLAIM TO JAMMU AND KASHMIR – A REAPPRAISAL:

    The formal overt Indian intervention in the internal affairs of the State of Jammu and Kashmir began on about 9.00 a.m. on 27 October 1947, when Indian troops started landing at Srinagar airfield. India has officially dated the commencement of its claim that the State was part of Indian sovereign territory to a few hours earlier, at some point in the afternoon or evening of 26 October. From their arrival on 27 October 1947 to the present day, Indian troops have continued to occupy a large proportion of the State of Jammu and Kashmir despite the increasingly manifest opposition of a majority of the population to their presence. To critics of India’s position and actions in the State of Jammu and Kashmir the Government of New Delhi has consistently declared that the State of Jammu and Kashmir lies entirely within the sphere of internal Indian policy. Do the facts support the Indian contention in this respect?

    The State of Jammu and Kashmir was a Princely State within the British Indian Empire. By the rules of the British transfer of power in Indian subcontinent in 1947 the Ruler of the State, Maharajah Sir Hari Singh, with the departure of the British and the lapsing of Paramountcy (as the relationship between State and British Crown was termed), could opt to join either India or Pakistan or, by doing nothing, become from 15 August 1947 the Ruler of an independent polity. The choice was the Ruler’s and his alone: there was no provision for popular consultation in the Indian Princely States during the final days of the British Raj. On 15th August 1947, by default, the State of Jammu and Kashmir became independent.

    India maintains that this period of independence, the existence of which it has never challenged effectively, came to an end on 26/27 October as the result of two pairs of closely related transactions, which we must now examine. They are:

    (a) an Instrument of Accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India which the Maharajah is alleged to have signed on 26 October 1947, and;

    (b) the acceptance of this Instrument by the Governor-General of India, Lord Mountbatten, on 27 October 1947; plus

    (c) a letter from the Maharajah to Lord Mountbatten, dated 26 October 1947, in which Indian military aid is sought in return for accession to India (on terms stated in an allegedly enclosed Instrument) and the appointment of Sheikh Abdullah to head an Interim Government of the State; and

    (d) a letter from Lord Mountbatten to the Maharajah, dated 27 October 1947, acknowledging the above and noting that, once the affairs of the State have been settled and law and order is restored, “the question of the State’s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.”

    In both pairs of documents it will be noted that the date of the communication from the Maharajah, be it the alleged Instrument of Accession or the letter to Lord Mountbatten, is given as 26 October 1947, that is to say before the Indian troops actually began overtly to intervene in the State’s affairs on the morning of 27 October 1947. It has been said that Lord Mountbatten insisted on the Maharajah’s signature as a precondition for his approval of Indian intervention in the affairs of what would otherwise be an independent State.

    The date, 26 October 1947, has hitherto been accepted as true by virtually all observers, be they sympathetic or hostile to the Indian case. It is to be found in an official communication by Lord Mountbatten, as Governor General of Pakistan, on 1 November 1947; and it is repeated in the White paper on Jammu and Kashmir which the Government of India laid before the Indian Parliament in March 1948. Pakistani diplomats have never challenged it. Recent research, however, has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the date is false. This fact emerges from the archives, and it is also quite clear from such sources as the memoirs of the Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir at the time, Mehr Chand Mahajan, and the recently published correspondence of Jawaharlal Nehru, the Indian Prime Minister. Circumstantial accounts of the events of 26 October 1947, notably that of V.P Menon (in his The Integration of the Indian States, London 1965), who said he was actually present when the Maharajah signed, are simply not true.

    It is now absolutely clear that the two documents (a) the Instrument of Accession, and (c) the letter to Lord Mountbatten, could not possibly have been signed by the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir on 26 October 1947. The earliest possible time and date for their signature would have to be the afternoon of 27 October 1947. During 26 October 1947 the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir was travelling by road from Srinagar to Jammu. His Prime Minister, M.C. Mahajan, who was negotiating with the Government of India, and the senior Indian official concerned in State matters, V.P. Menon, were still in New Delhi where they remained overnight, and where their presence was noted by many observers. There was no communication of any sort between New Delhi and the traveling Maharajah. Menon and Mahajan set out by air from New Delhi to Jammu at about 10.00 a.m. on 27 October, and the Maharajah learned from them for the first time the result of his Prime Minister’s negotiations in New Delhi in the early afternoon of that day.

    The key point, of course, a has already been noted above, is that it is now obvious that these documents could only have been signed after the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. When the Indian troops arrived at Srinagar air field, that State was still independent. Any agreements favourable to India signed after such intervention cannot escape the charge of having been produced under duress. It was, one presumes, to escape just such a charge that the false date 26 October 1947 was assigned to these two documents. The deliberately distorted account of that very senior Indian official, V.P. Menon, to which reference has already been made, was no doubt executed for the same end. Falsification of such a fundamental element as date of signature, however, once established, can only cast grave doubt over the validity of the document as a whole .

    An examination of the transactions behind these four documents in the light of the new evidence produces a number of other serious doubts. It is clear, for example, that in the case of (c) and (d), the exchange of letters between the Maharajah and Lord Mountbatten, Lord Mountbatten’s reply must antedate the letter to which it is an answer unless, as seems more than probable, both were drafted by the Government of India before being taken up to Jammu on 27 October 1947 (by V.P. Menon and Jammu and Kashmir Prime Minister M.C. Mahajan, whose movements, incidentally, are correctly reported in the London Times of 28 October 1947) after the arrival of the Indian troops at Srinagar airfield. The case is very strong, therefore, that document (c), the Maharajah’s letter to Lord Mountbatten, was dictated to the Maharajah.

    Documents (c) and (d) were published by the Government of India on 28 October 1947. The far more important document (a), the alleged Instrument of Accession, was not published until many years later, if at all. It was not communicated to Pakistan at the outset of the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, nor was it presented in facsimile to the United Nations in early 1948 as part of the initial Indian reference to the Security Council. The 1948 White Paper in which the Government of India set out its formal case in respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir, does not contain the Instrument of Accession as claimed to have been signed by the Maharajah: instead, it reproduces an unsigned from of Accession such as, it is imposed, the Maharajah might have signed. To date no satisfactory original of this Instrument as signed by the Maharajah ever did sign an Instrument of Accession. There are, indeed, grounds for suspecting that he did no such thing. The Instrument of Accession referred to in document (c); a letter which as we have seen was probably drafted by Indian officials prior to being shown to the Maharajah, may never have existed, and can hardly have existed when the letter was being prepared.

    Even if there had been an Instrument of Accession, then if it followed the form indicated in the unsigned example of such an Instrument published in the Indian 1948 White Paper it would have been extremely restrictive in the rights conferred upon the Government of India. All that were in fact transferred from the State to the Government of India by such an Instrument were the powers over Defence, Foreign Relations and certain aspects of Communications. Virtually all else was left with the State Government. Thanks to Article 370 of the Indian Constitution of January 1950 (which, unlike much else relating to the former Princely States, has survived to some significant degree in current Indian constitution theory, if not in practice), the State of Jammu and Kashmir was accorded a degree of autonomy which does not sit at all comfortably with the current authoritarian Indian administration of those parts of the State which it holds.

    Not only would such an Instrument have been restrictive, but also by virtue of the provisions, of (d), Lord Mountbatten’s letter to the Maharajah dated 27 October 1947, it would have been conditional. Lord Mountbatten, as Governor-General of India, made it clear that the State of Jammu and Kashmir would only be incorporated permanently within the Indian fold after approval as a result of some form of reference to the people, a procedure which soon (with United Nations participation) became defined as a fair and free plebiscite . India has never permitted such a reference to the people to be made.

    Why would the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir not have signed an Instrument of Accession? The answer lies in the complex course of events of August, September and October 1947 emerged. The Maharajah, confronted with growing internal disorder (including a full scale rebellion in the Poonch region of the State), sought Indian military help without, it at all possible, surrendering his own independence. The Government of India delayed assisting him in the hope that in despair he would accede to India before any Indian actions had to be taken. In the event, India had to move first. Having secured what he wanted, Indian military assistance, the Maharajah would naturally have wished to avoid paying the price of the surrender of his independence by signing any instrument which he could possibly avoid signing. From the Afternoon of 27 October 1947 onwards a smoke screen conceals both the details and the immediate outcome of this struggle of wills between the Government of India and the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir. To judge from the 1948 White Paper an Instrument of accession may not have been signed by March 1948, by which time the Indian case for sovereignty over Jammu and Kashmir was already being argued before the United Nations.

    The patently false dates of documents (a) and (c) alter fundamentally the nature of the overt Indian intervention in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 October 1947. India was not defending its own but intervening in a foreign State. There can be no reasonable doubt that had Pakistan been aware of this falsification of the record it would have argued very differently in international for from the outset of the dispute; and had the United Nations understood the true chronology it would have listened with for less sympathy to arguments presented to it by successive Indian representatives. Given the facts as they are now known, it may well be that an impartial international tribunal would decided that India had no right at all to be in the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

    The Indian Claim to Jammu and Kashmir – Conditional Accession, Plebiscites and the Reference to the United Nations:

    While the date, and perhaps even the fact, of the accession to India of the State of Jammu and Kashmir in late October 1947 can be questioned, there is no dispute that at that time any such accession was presented to the world large as conditional and provisional. In his letter to the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir, bearing the date 27 October 1947, the Governor General of India, Lord Mountbatten, declared that:

    “Consistently with that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance to the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government’s wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invaders the question of the State’s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.”

    The substance of this was communicated by Jawaharlal Nehru to Liaquat Ali Khan in a telegram of 28 October 1947 in which Nehru indicated that this was a policy with which he agreed. The point is clear enough. A reference to the people would be entirely futile unless it contained the potential of reversing the process of accession. If the people opted for Pakistan, or indeed, for continued independence, then any documents relating to accession which the Maharajah may have signed would be null and void. Such documents would perforce be provisional, in that they could confer rights only until the reference to the people took place; and they were conditional in that they could not continue in force indefinitely unless ratified by popular vote. This point is as valid today as it was in late October 1947.

    Indian apologists have since endeavored to argue that the plebiscite proposal was personal to Mountbatten (which we can see it was not) and that it was in a real sense ex-gratia and in no way binding on subsequent Indian administrations. The fact of the matter, however, was that the plebiscite policy had been established long before the Kashmir crisis erupted in October 1947. It was an inherent part of the process by which the British Indian Empire was partitioned between the two successor Dominions of India and Pakistan. Plebiscites (or referenda-the terms tended to be used at this time as if they meant the same thing) had been held on the eve of the Transfer of Power in August 1947 in two areas. In the North West Frontier Province, which possessed a Congress Government despite a virtually total Muslim population, and in Sylhet, a Muslim majority district of the non-Muslim majority Province of Assam, there had been plebiscites where the people were given the choice of joining India or Pakistan. In both cases the vote was in favour of Pakistan. The Sylhet Plebiscite is of particular significance in that it gave a Muslim majority district of a State with an overall non-Muslim majority the opportunity to join its Muslim majority neighbour, Bengal.

    The value of the plebiscitary process continued to be appreciated in India after the British Indian Empire had come to an end. In September 1947 the Government of India advocated, as a matter of policy, the holding of a plebiscite in the Princely State of Junagadh. Junagadh was in many respects the mirror image of Kashmir. Here a Muslim Ruler, the Nawab, had formally acceded to Pakistan on 15 August 1947 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of his subjects were Hindus. The Government of India were united in opposing this action. However, as Jawaharlal Nehru put it on 30 September 1947 :

    “We are entirely opposed to war and wish to avoid it. We want an amicable settlement of this issue and we propose therefore, that wherever there is a dispute in regard to any territory, the matter should be decided by a referendum or plebiscite of the people concerned. We shall accept the result of this referendum whatever it may be as it is our desire that a decision should be made in accordance with the wishes of the people concerned. We invite the Pakistan Government, therefore, to submit the Junagadh issue to a referendum of the people under impartial auspices.”

    In Indian eyes, in other words, Junagadh’s accession to Pakistan, if it had any validity at all could only be provisional and conditional upon the outcome of a plebiscite of referendum. India, moreover, considered that the need for such a reference to the people was specifically determined by the fact that a majority of the State’s population followed a different religion to that of the Ruler. A plebiscite in Junagadh was duly held in February 1948, when the vote was for union with India. In Indian official thinking, it is clear, there was no question of a plebiscite in any State where both Ruler and people were non-Muslims.

    Thus when the Kashmir crisis broke out in October 1947 the plebiscite was already established as the official Indian solution to this order of problem. On 25 October 1947, before the Kashmir crisis had fully developed and before Indian claims based on the Maharajah’s accession to India had been voiced, Nehru in a telegram to Attlee, the British Prime Minister, declared that:

    “I should like to make it clear that [the] question of aiding Kashmir…..is not designed in any way to influence the State to accede to India. Our view, which we have repeatedly made public, is that [the] question of accession in any disputed territory must be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people, and we adhere to this view.”

    On 28 October 1947 the Governor General of Pakistan M.A. Jinnah, also agreed that the answer to Kashmir lay in a plebiscite, thus confirming the official Pakistan policy on this subject. From this moment the basic disagreement between the two Dominions, at least on paper, lay in the modalities for holding a plebiscite and what was understood by “impartial auspices”.

    The concept of impartial supervision of the determination of sovereignty had been present from the outset of the run up to the partition of the Punjab and Bengal in early June 1947. A number of possibilities had been considered at this period, including the request for the services of the United Nations (which had then been rejected on technical grounds arising in the main from the short span of time allowed for the partition process to be implemented). In connection with the Junagadh question, on 30 September 1947 Nehru made it clear that if the United Nations were to be involved (as a result, perhaps, of a reference to that body by Pakistan), and the United Nations issued directions, India would “naturally abide by those directions”.

    Between 28 October and 22 December 1947 there took place a series of Indo-Pakistan discussions over the Kashmir question, some with the leaders of the two sides meeting face to face, some through subordinate officials and some through British intermediaries acting either officially or unofficially. While frequently acrimonious, the general tenor of the negotiations was that some kind of plebiscite should be held in Jammu and Kashmir. At a meeting on 8 November 1947 between two very senior officials, V.P Menon for India and Chaudhri Muhammad Ali for Pakistan, a detailed scheme for holding a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir was worked out, with the apparent blessing of the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, Vallabhbhai Patel, in which the following principle was laid down : that neither Government [of India or Pakistan] would accept the accession of a State whose rule was of a different religion to the majority of his subjects without resorting to a plebiscite.

    The 8 November scheme aborted; but the underlying principles remained on the agenda. There were two major questions. First : how and in what way should the State be restored to a condition of tranquility such as would permit the holding of any kind of free and fair plebiscite. Second: who should supervise the plebiscite when it finally came to he held. On both question, after exploring a number of devices including the employment of British officers to hold the ring while the votes were being cast, the consensus in the Governments of both India and Pakistan by 22 December 1947 was that the services of the United Nations, either through the Secretary General or the Security Council, offered the best prospect for success, though Nehru continued to express in public his reservations about “foreign” intervention.

    At this point Lord Mountbatten, the Governor General of India, explained to Liaquat Ali Khan, the Prime Minister of Pakistan, that the best way to get Nehru to decide finally in favour of reference to the United Nations was to permit India to take the first step, even if in the process Pakistan would have to submit to some measure of Indian “indictment” to which Pakistan would have every opportunity to make rebuttal at the United Nations. Liaquat Ali Khan, so the records make clear, accepted this proposal. On this basis, on 1 January 1948, India brought Security Council of the United Nations.

    The Presentation of the Indian case, the Pakistani reply, and the series of debates which followed over the years, have all tended to obscure the original terms of that Indian reference. This was made under Article 35 of the Charter of the United Nations in which the mediation of the Security Council was expressly sough in a matter which otherwise threatened to disturb the course of international relations. The issue was an Indian request for United Nations mediation in a dispute which had transcended the diplomatic resources of the two parties directly involved, India and Pakistan, and not, as it is frequently represented, an Indian demand for United Nations condemnation of Pakistan’s “aggression”. This point, despite much Indian and Pakistan rhetoric, can be determined easily enough by relating the contents of the reference to the specifications of Article 35 of the United Nations Charter. The United Nations was asked to devise a formula whereby peace could be restored in the State of Jammu and Kashmir so that a fair and free plebiscite could be held to determine that State’s future. The matter of the Maharajah of Kashmir’s accession to India was not in this context of the slightest relevance.

    The Security Council of the United Nations responded to this request by devising a number of schemes for the restoration of law and order and the holding a plebiscite. These were duly set out in United Nations Resolutions which, though never implemented, still remain the collective expression of the voice of the international community as to how the Kashmir question ought to be settled. The conditions set out by the Security Council of the United Nations have not been met in any way by the subsequent internal political processes (including a variety of elections) in the State of Jammu and Kashmir and in any of its constituent parts.

    The situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir remains unresolved, and it remains a matter of international interest. Given the background to and terms of the original Indian reference to the Security Council it cannot possibly be said that, today, Jammu and Kashmir (or those parts of it currently under Indian occupation) is a matter of purely internal Indian concern. The United Nations retains that status in this matter, which it was granted by the original Indian reference, and the Security Council still has the duty to endeavor to implement its Resolutions.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    there was no apparent blessing by Vallabhai Patel. He was against plebiscte, against Nehru’s ideas; but went along with him as Nehru was the PM. However, he took a decisisve action in Hyderaabd when he was the acting PM when Nehru was out of the country traveling in Europe.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Thanks for the mumbo-jumbo.

    If you want a rebuttal to your mumbo-jumbo, here’s one -

    http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/5235-Refuting-the-position-of-Alastair-Lamb-on-Pakistan-s-leigitimacy-over-Kashmir?p=66743&viewfull=1

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Arun,
    Does it matter that we were wrong? Was China right in seizing Tibet and attacking India? Was Pakistan right in attacking Kashmir? Yeah, we were wrong, grossly wrong. So what? Deal with it.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    Examples of Indian atrocities in Kashmir

    “As the conflict in Kashmir enters its fourth year, central and state authorities have done little to stop the widespread practice of rape by Indian security forces in Kashmir. Indeed, when confronted with the evidence of rape, time and again the authorities have attempted to impugn the integrity of the witnesses, discredit the testimony of physicians or simply deny the charges everything except order a full inquiry and prosecute those responsible for rape”.
    (Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993)

    “Since January 1990, rape by Indian occupation forces has become more frequent. Rape most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon and search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In raping them, the security forces are attempting to punish and humiliate the entire community.”
    (‘Pain in Kashmir: A Crime of War’ issued jointly by Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993)

    “By beginning TV cameras and prohibiting the presence in Kashmir of the International Red Cross and of human rights organization, the Indian authorities have tried to keep Kashmir out of the news.”
    (`Kashmiri crisis at the flash point’, The Washington Times, by columnist Cord Meyer, April 23, 1993)

    “(On February 23, 1991), at least 23 women were reportedly raped in their homes at gunpoint (at Kunan Poshpora in Kashmir). Some are said to have been gang-raped, others to have been raped in front of their children … The youngest victim was a girl of 13 named Misra, the oldest victim, name Jana, was aged 80″.
    (Amnesty International, March 1992)

    “The most common torture methods are severe beatings, sometimes while the victim is hung upside down, and electric shocks. People have also been crushed with heavy rollers, burned, stabbed with sharp instruments, and had objects such as chilies or thick sticks forced into their rectums. Sexual mutilation has been reported”.
    (Amnesty International, March 1992)

    “The worst outrages by the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) have been frequent gang rapes of all women in Muslim villages, followed by the execution of the men”.
    (Eric Margolis, The Ottawa Citizen, December 8, 1991)

    “While army troops dragged men from their homes for questioning in the border town of Kunan Pushpura, scores of women say they were raped by soldiers….a pregnant Kashmiri woman, who was raped and kicked, gave birth to a son with a broken arm.”
    (Melinda Liuin, Newsweek, June 24, 1991)
    [Anthony Wood and Ron MaCullagh of the Sundav Observer (June 02, 1992) estimated that over 500 Indian army men were involved in this orgy of rape and plunder in Kunan Pushpura.]

    “The security forces have entered hospitals, beaten patients, hit doctors, entered operating theaters, smashed instruments. Ambulances have been attacked, curfew passes are confiscated.”
    (Asia Watch, May 1991)

    “Subjugated, humiliated, tortured and killed by the 650,000-strong Indian army, the people of Kashmir have been living through sheer hell for more than a year, the result of an increasingly brutal campaign of state repression. India hides behind its carefully-crafted image of “non-violence” and presents itself in international forums as a model of democracy and Pluralism. Yet, it is unable to stand up the scrutiny of even its admirers. All journalists, especially television crews, were expelled from the Valley. With no intrusive cameras to record the brutalities of the Indian forces, the world has been kept largely in the dark.” (The Toronto Star, January 25, 1991)

    “Young girls were now being raped systematically by entire (Indian) army units rather than by a single soldier as before. Girls are taken to soldier’s camps and held naked in their tents for days on end. Many never return home….Women are strung up naked from trees and their breast lacerated with knives, as the (Indian) soldiers tell them that their breast will never give milk again to a newborn militant. Women are raped in front of their husbands and children, or paraded naked through villages and beaten on the breasts.”
    (The Independent, September 18, 1990)

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Examples of atrocities on Kashmiris by terrorists.

    http://www.kashmir-information.com/atrocities/4.html

    I can also cut and paste the entire article. But I am not interested.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Arun,
    ““The worst outrages by the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) have been frequent gang rapes of all women in Muslim villages, followed by the execution of the men”.
    (Eric Margolis, The Ottawa Citizen, December 8, 1991)”

    Oh yeah! Eric Margolis of all people. Stuff! I just wonder that if the Army has blocked access to Kashmir for all and sundry where do these people get their news from?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Akash, it wouldn’t have caught my attention other than the place, ottawa , that is canada, THE MOST RACIST COUNTRY ON PLANET EARTH , NEXT TO JAPAN.

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    2700 unmarked graves discovered in Indian Held Kashmir

    A human rights group in Kashmir urged authorities to launch a probe into 2,700 unmarked graves believed to be people who died as a result of the region’s revolt against Indian rule. Srinagar, India. 2/12/2009.

    In occupied Kashmir, 2,700 unmarked graves containing over 2,943 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore, Baramulla and Kupwara have been discovered.
    The Srinagar based human rights group, International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice for Kashmir (IPTJ) in its report released today in a press conference claimed that the graves could be of those missing from the custody of Indian troops. Rights groups put their numbers at ten thousand. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir, Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.

    112-page dossier, titled ‘Buried Evidence’ was released at a press conference in Srinagar today by Angna Chatterjee, the convener of the group. The report documents in considerable detail how the actions of Indian military and paramilitary forces in Kashmir inflict terror on the local population, killed through extra-judicial means.
    The detailed press note issued in Srinagar at the press conference is as follows:

    BURIED EVIDENCE is authored by Angana P. Chatterji, Parvez Imroz, Gautam Navlakha, Zahir-Ud-Din, Mihir Desai, and Khurram Parvez.
    [Dr. Angana P. Chatterji is Convener IPTK and Professor, Anthropology, California Institute of Integral Studies.
    Advocate Parvez Imroz is Convener IPTK and Founder, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
    Gautam Navlakha is Convener IPTK and Editorial Consultant, Economic and Political Weekly.
    Zahir-Ud-Din is Convener IPTK and Vice-President, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.
    Advocate Mihir Desai is Legal Counsel IPTK and Lawyer, Mumbai High Court and Supreme Court of India.
    Khurram Parvez is Liaison IPTK and Programme Coordinator, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society.]

    Findings
    The graveyards investigated by IPTK entomb bodies of those murdered in encounter and fake encounter killings between 1990-2009. These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces.

    Of these graves, 2,373 (87.9 percent) were unnamed. Of these graves, 154 contained two bodies each and 23 contained more than two cadavers. Within these 23 graves, the number of bodies ranged from 3 to 17.

    A mass grave may be identified as containing more than one, and usually unidentified, human cadaver. Scholars refer to mass graves as resulting from crimes against humanity, war crimes, or genocide. If the intent of a mass grave is to execute death with impunity, with intent to kill more than one, and to forge an unremitting representation of death, then, to that extent, the graves in Bandipora, Baramulla, and Kupwara are part of a collective burial by India’s military and paramilitary, creating a landscape of “mass burial.”

    Post-death, the bodies of the victims were routinely handled by military and paramilitary personnel, including the local police. The bodies were then brought to the “secret graveyards” primarily by personnel of the Jammu and Kashmir Police. The graves were constructed by local gravediggers and caretakers, buried individually when possible, and specifically not en mass, in keeping with Islamic religious sensibilities.

    The graves, with few exceptions, hold bodies of men. Violence against civilian men has expanded spaces for enacting violence against women. Women have been forced to disproportionately assume the task of caregiving to disintegrated families and undertake the work of seeking justice following disappearances and deaths. These graveyards have been placed next to fields, schools, and homes, largely on community land, and their affect on the local community is daunting.

    The Indian Armed Forces and the Jammu and Kashmir Police routinely claim the dead buried in unknown and unmarked graves to be “foreign militants/terrorists.” They claim that the dead were unidentified foreign or Kashmiri militants killed while infiltrating across the border areas into Kashmir or travelling from Kashmir into Pakistan to seek arms training. Official state discourse conflates cross-border militancy with present nonviolent struggles by local Kashmiri groups for political and territorial self-determination, portraying local resistance as “terrorist” activity.

    Exhumation and identification have not occurred in sizeable cases. Where they have been undertaken, in various instances, “encounter” killings across Kashmir have, in fact, been authenticated as “fake encounter” killings. In instances where, post-burial, bodies have been identified, two methods have been used prevalently. These are 1. Exhumation; and 2. Identification through the use of photographs.

    The report also examines 50 alleged “encounter” killings by Indian security forces in numerous districts in Kashmir. Of these persons, 39 were of Muslim descent; 4 were of Hindu descent; 7 were not determined. Of these cases, 49 were labelled militants/foreign insurgents by security forces and one body that was drowned. Of these, following investigations, 47 were found killed in fake encounters and one was identifiable as a local militant.

    IPTK has been able to study only partial areas within 3 of 10 districts in Kashmir, and our findings and very preliminary evidence point to the severity of existing conditions. If independent investigations were to be undertaken in all 10 districts, it is reasonable to assume that the 8,000+ enforced disappearances since 1989 would correlate with the number of bodies in unknown, unmarked, and mass graves.

    Allegations
    The methodical and planned use of killing and violence in Indian-administered Kashmir constitutes crimes against humanity in the context of an ongoing conflict. The Indian state’s governance of Indian-administered Kashmir requires the use of discipline and death as techniques of social control. Discipline is affected through military presence, surveillance, punishment, and fear. Death is disbursed through “extrajudicial” means and those authorized by law. These techniques of rule are used to kill, and create fear of not just death but of murder.

    Mass and intensified extrajudicial killings have been part of a sustained and widespread offensive by the military and paramilitary institutions of the Indian state against civilians of Jammu and Kashmir. IPTK asks that the evidence put forward in this report be examined, verified, and reframed as relevant by credible, independent, and international bodies, and that international institutions ask that the Government of India comply with such investigations.

    We note that the international community and institutions have not examined the supposition of crimes against humanity in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. We note that the United Nations and its member states have remained ineffective in containing and halting the adverse consequences of the Indians state’s militarization in Kashmir.

    We ask that evidence from unknown, unmarked, and mass graves in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir be used to seek justice, through the sentencing of criminals and other judicial and social processes. As well, the existence of these graves, and how they came to be, may be understood as indicative of the effects and issue of militarization, and the issues pertaining to militarization itself must be addressed seriously and expeditiously.

    The violences of militarization in Indian-administered Kashmir, between 1989-2009, have resulted in 70,000+ deaths, including through extrajudicial or “fake encounter” executions, custodial brutality, and other means. In the enduring conflict, 6, 67,000 military and paramilitary personnel continue to act with impunity to regulate movement, law, and order across Kashmir. The Indian state itself, through its legal, political, and military actions, has demonstrated the existence of a state of continuing conflict within Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir

    http://www.demotix.com/news/2700-unm…n-held-kashmir

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    LOL !! Arun, how biased can you get ? Demotix is a ‘user generated news’ channel. Any bigot can write and express ‘free opinion’ on that site.

    Please pick a more authentic source to defend your argument and please try to make shorter arguments !

    [Reply]

  • abrar

    Arun,I am surprised some of your country men have not started calling you names and labelling you. Any ways your facts speak volumes and it is heartening to read the reality from an Indian.

    The problem is why is your media not independant in its views on kashmir,neither it seem to do its own investigation on kashmir. the bias is over whelming and it is deppressing to see the dire strait of kashmiris under such oppressive conditions.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Krishnamurty

    It is also Muslims mistake that the do not project the truth factually. But Abrar you know truth will utimately prevail, if not today, or tomorrow but it will. Are we going to kill all of them. Look at the your shamefull indian Muslims scared to speak out. But then again they so scared after those dreadful riots in Mumbai, Gujrat and UP that are not ready to say anything.

    [Reply]

    abrar Reply:

    Indian muslim position I can understand . They are indians and they have to live in their country.They are very cautious about speaking for kashmirs who want to opt out of india. They dont want to be labelled as “unpatrioptic”.

    The problem in India over kashmir is the reluctance of the majority to acknowledge that kashmir dispute needs to be resolved amicably. The strange notioon that letting kashmir go will open a pandora box and will bifurcate the Indian state.It is this argument that is being used to suppress kashmiris and deny the obvious.

    You know what will happen,by keeping them boxed in,it will create a bigger problem that will be harder to contain.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    is Arun and abrar same person ?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Arun @Abrar

    So what are you trying to present/prove– that there is some historical claim to Kashmir by Pakisatn, or that Kashmiris should be let go as they choose etc etc.. If only life was so simple.

    If we go by historical claim, there will not be a Pakistan, there will not be a Bengla Desh, there will not be Muslims in IndianI penninsula, there will not be me or my family, all mosques and churches in India should be obliterated and landscape should be like it was before any invasion took place here.

    So, dont bring this historical claim or intent. Nobody cares a hoot. India will let Kashmir go when China let Tibet go or when Israelis decide to give Israel back to Palestinians.Or when North Korea and South korea unites. May be India has a claim to Tibet because Kailas and Manasarovar, two of the most sacred Hindu pilgrimage centers are in Tibet…Agree? And may be India has a claim to Sri Lanka .

    Get a life, talk about realities. The reality is that Pakistani thugs created an environment of terror and destruction in kashmir. The reality is that Mrs Bhutto started the monkey business with her ISI (with Hamid Gul as her head opeartions guy — the same Gul who even today claims World Trade center collapse is a CIA/Mosad (luckiluy he left out RAW) operation) (so also 85% of Pakistanis believe the same)

    Yes, atrocities were (and are being) committed by indian security forces. Nobody will dispute that, Mr Krishnamurthy (Sam will investigate ur bonafide; ), However when things are reconciled, let us include the Pandits who were killed and driven out, innocent Muslims who were caught up in the terrorist killings..

    As far as territorry is concerned, India should never, in any circumstances let territorry go. Successive invaders trampled on us; the focus now should be on building ona nd not letting go. We should be like any other country – like China in Tibet, Russia in chechnya, China in Urguyar. Pakistan can collude with or threaten some of the Kashmiris and bleed on all its borders and inside its core of Punjab and Sind.

    It is high time for India to integrate Kashmir, making laws compatible with other states, not standing in the way of movement of people from and to KAshmir. The special status of Kashmir has brought grief and damage to kashmiris and other Indians. Just do it.,. Use force and do it

    Sam Reply:

    kasmir will not be a problem if either 1 or 2 happens.

    1. baluchistan is a separate country
    2. POK is taken back into indian terrirtory..

    Kalat and other parts of balochistan never wanted to be part of pakistan.
    they were forcefully occupied by pak army.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Abrar,
    “The strange notioon that letting kashmir go will open a pandora box and will bifurcate the Indian state.It is this argument that is being used to suppress kashmiris and deny the obvious.”

    No! We don’t fear that letting go of Kashmir would divide India further. If you haven’t noticed, people on this blog represent all corners of India, and yes, we are all rabidly nationalist. We have been brutalized for centuries. Do you really think we are going to give up Kashmir? What for? For scums from your Let to set up their camp there and cause more trouble in other parts of India. You are a feckless bunch of people, you word is worthless. Who are we going to trust to keep their word? What is the guarantee that Kashmir won’t be another Swat. I agree the ongoing happenings in Kashmir are unfortunate and I feel sorry for all the people who are needlessly caught in the crossfire. I sincerely hope that the situation gets back to normal. And, yes our security forces are to be blamed in some of cases. It’s not their fault. It’s the a s s h o l e s at Delhi who have messed things up and left the **** for the army to sort out. The army is trained to kill not to maintain law and order. And yeah, no more redrawing the borders! So you can take all this bs about injustice of Partition and stuff it up your a s s.

    Actually, as Sam has said, Balochistan has a much greater claim than Kashmir to be a separate nation.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Arun, a one sentence summary would be good.

    Dont expect us to read a book pasted inside a blog !!

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Had Nehru allowed Sardar Patel to implement his plans for Kashmir, the Kashmir problem would not have been there.

    Thank God, he took over Hyderabad (bulk of modern AP, karnataka, Maharashtra) against Pandit’s wishes (Panditji, as usual , wanted discussions, negotiations, agreements, settlement, and any other stuff that never solves anything) when the smoocher was tarveling in Europe. Otherwise, we will be having a Kashmir problem in the South also.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    past is past.

    what can you do to get consensus from all parties in removing section 370 ?

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    all the violence that we see in Kasmir is perpetrated or provoked by the so called innocent civillians who know no other language than force,which is deeply woven in their belief and peace is for name sake only.the world has become wiser to these facts.Those who want azadi can go to the azad side and enjoy the azadi there.The intolerance level has reached its peek,hence we see the infighting among themselves,everywhere in the world.The next big war in the mid-east is going to be between themselves the shias and sunnis who hate eachother more than the jews.Iran amuslim country with muslim neighbours still needs to have N-weapon for protection or to threaten its neighbours. Muslims should learn to be good and peace loving minority in india

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Muslims should learn to be good and peace loving minority in india

    Can muslims be partners in building a secular India ?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.disqus.com schadha

    Theoretically your article is without flaw — it is a impassioned and deliberate plea against arbitary and uncontrolled use of power . This is commendable and should be so
    But mr zia what the security forces are faced with is not a simple law and order problem — it is in plain terms a secessionist movement fuelle d and funded by the forces from across the border . To whom and what do you talk when the local leadership in the area is not amenable to dialogue / discussion and is hell bent on creating trouble — india has investe a lot in the state , basically all its ideals of secularism , minority rights , recognition of the separate identities of the kashmirs as well as pumped in extrordinary amounts of funds in the state( 20 TIMES MORE CENTRAL FUNDS GO HERE THAN TO BIHAR) . But the ideals from across the border , of theocracy , communalism , reminscient of the positions of pre-partition / direct action days of muslim league
    appear to have found favour with the kashmiris
    The armed forces are not running amuck as portrayed by many –they are professionals doing their enjoined duties to the best of their abilities in a atmosphere where they are faced by a hostile and suspicious population . They cannot be expected to do this tough job with one hand behind their back—- today there were reports that about 60 people were injured in sopore in clashes with security men (apart from 3 civilians killed ) — of these 60 ,36 were service personnel . Surely this would not have happened if the demonstrators were as peaceful and docile as made out to be . It appears that much is being made of the death of a 9 year boy this is by all accounts very tragic and regrettable . But surely you do not believe that the security people had taken or were taking pot shots at this young person whose life is so tragically snuffed . What would they have achieved if they deliberately kill him — nothing At best it appears a cruel accident
    When you have 700000 armed personnel ( for both border as well as internal security ) and the local population is hostile to you then there may be a few tragic instances of collateral damage — sad but unavoidable / The problem is that in the extremey charged atmosphere in kashmir blame is passed to agencies / personnel in order to diffuse a situation —–take the army to the barracks but what about the terrorists coming from across the border to take advantage of the situation? Repeal the special powers given to the army — how do we handle the secessionists whose numbers are many . Obviously the ordinary law and ordinary method of law enforcement was not suitable for such extraordinary situation —otherwise the army may not have been there with its drain on the exchequer .Beleive me no army likes to be involved in internal security which we all know is messy
    We have instances of army’s running amuck so to say — the pakistan army in bangladesh in 1971 , the bosnian army , saddam hussein in repressing the kurdish rebellion , the rwanda genocide to name a few . By no stretch of imagination can the armys role in kashmir be compared to these.I f you want to know a army not amenable to civilian control , best example is pakistan where the prime minister of the country had no inkling of what the pak army was doing in kargil –can we equate our army with this scenario?
    Excesses by the armed forces should not be there and these should be weeded out — this is important for the forces morale and discipiline . But the problems they are faced with are stupendous in kashmir –which we have to appreciate and allow for
    The army is the last resort of the state in enforcing its policy or protecting the state —they are called upon in extraordinary circumstances —extarordinary circumstances may require extreme measures . What we are faced in kashmir is a secessionist movement for specious reason of religious appeal from across the border—–no country in modern history has voluntarily acquiesed in the dismemberment of itself If extreme steps ae required to prevent it so be it . The world remembers the victors , the losers are consigned to the dust bin of history . Recent events in srilanka vis a vis ltteare testimony to this

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    If armed forces are running amok…

    –they will kill 3 million people and create 10 million refugees in 2 years.

    only pak army is capable of doing it.

    there is no comparison and absolutely no-need to pay attention to idiots criticizing about armed forces conduct.
    just tell them how muslim armies behaved.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Schada

    Absolutely right. The issues are complex; however, India has to prevail. At the end of the day, we know, with all our imperfections, we are a better country, our people (Hindus, Muslims,Christians, Sikhs and all others) are compassioante and indifferent to what the belief systems of others are; all participting in building a vibrant democracy.

    The political Islam and teh Taliban-like theoocracy has to be eliminated so people can pursue their dreams without the clerical Islam breathing on Kashmiris.

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    I donot understand why some people in Kashmir vally are harping for reducing number of days for Amarnath Yatra? After all, if all yatra is peaceful, it will not only bring business, well being for the people of valley but also develop mutual trust in communities.

    [Reply]

    ramesh Reply:

    No it is the kashmiri muslims who have lost the plot .For the last 60yrs they have not been able to intigrate themselves with the democratic values given the chance on the better side.The azad side has also done very little and gained nothing just survived under the dictate.No character.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    If only we had leaders like Sardar Vallabhai Patel!

    Our inept governments wasted so many opportunities over all these years.

    But no meaning in lamenting Time for action. Chidambaram has the intellectual prowess, I have not seen him as tough – may be because he does not have a political base.

    Sam Reply:

    >I donot understand why some people in Kashmir vally

    they dont care about business or developing mutual trust with kafirs.

    if they curtail this, slowly people will forget there were Hindus in the Kashmir ever.

    they only want to show islamic images and erase the non-muslim links.
    that’s what happens in conquered lands.

    read V S Naipaul’s book of “Among the believers”
    http://www.amazon.com/Among-Believers-Islamic-V-S-Naipaul/dp/0394711955

    this is the same thing they did in Iran, Indonesia..

    most of izlamic actions are well thought out and have already been done in history in different times, different countries…

  • karan

    yet again a disappointing blog which has nothing else to offer except alarmist views – aka this will happen ..that will happen blah blah…

    Fact remains that the Kashmir dispute is not really a dispute – its blatant agression on part of Muslims to establish their own hegemony on the state – does this author tell us how he proposes to re-habilitate the Kashmiri pandits back in kashmir?? No – offcourse not he is not interested in questions which point out the great injustices which these Kashmiri muslims unleashed on their minority hindu populations.

    Mind you this very same religious ideological bias created pakistan – arent muslims happy with Pakistan – how many times do they want to divide india ……..again and again – why so much hatred ?? …

    I think its time to reflect on Islamic countries like Pakistan,Afganistan,Iran,Saudi Arabia – this debate is only valid when we look at the whole picture ……..WHOLE picture

    This article is useless piece of junk because this author is not telling us the WHOLE story – a 1400 yr old store ………..

    [Reply]

  • ash

    It is amazing how the ultra nationalists and anti minority bloggers are posting . Situation in kashmior cannopt be attributed to any thing other then wrong. kashmiris were wronged in 1947 and should have been allowed to join Pakistan on the basis of the division agrred upon at that time.

    The wrong done in kashmir is the reason behind the tragedy of the past 62 years.

    The Abdullas betrayed the trust kashmiris bexstowed upon them and they have been singing to the masters in new Delhi ever since.Sheikh,Farooq,Umer never represented the real aspiratioons of the kashmiris. They are only doing their part of the deal they m,ade with India to keep kashmir under Indian occupation.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Pakistan is an aberration… and you see the results…never having one day of peace..military rukle, killings.. hangings.. father Bhutto being hung–daugher Bhutto murdered…Dayugher bhutto ordering the killing of her brothers..Zia Haq’s rules on bvlasphemy..mass madrasaising…

    Pakistan is a cockroach living on western handouts…

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    Ash, again you are harping on religious bigotry. Mind it, it will not lead you anywhere and you are not doing any good even to Kashmiri identity. By going into history you will only bring further misery for Kashmiri awam. Please enlighten us what better you propose for Kashmiri in present circumstances. Forget for your life that J&K will ever be part of Pakistan. Think positively for Kashmiri and try to find out the way as to how PHK is to be librated from Pakistan for its real historical identity and peace.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Bobby et al,
    A. India committed to a referendum when appropriate conditions were created by all parties; we all know those conditions were never created. So, there is really no legal basis for asking for a referendum.
    B. Now, no one disputes that Kashmir is on the boil and have been on the boil for the last 20 or more years, especially since Rajiv and Farooq got together to inflict a fraudulent election on Kashmir. However, to say that if the democracy was allowed to run its course, there would have been no unrest, is too simplistic. But, to say that the Kashmir movement is an indigenous outpouring of popular sentiments (sorry for hashing all those adjectives together, a la the HRAs), is even more simplistic.
    C. Let’s call a spade a spade: Kashmir is on the boil because of weak governance and that it shares a border with Pakistan which stokes militant Islamism from across the border.

    By the way, why stop at holding a referendum in Kashmir? Why not hold a referendum in Batla House area in Delhi? Or Dantewada? Or Manipur?
    Other interesting referendum ideas:
    1. West Bengal opting to merge with Bangladesh
    2. The Naxals wanting large parts of Central India to secede and become “Hill-i-stan” (inspired by their spiritual Guru who periodically wants “the tribals to be left alone on their hills”)- too bad the Naxals do not want democratic things like referendums at all.
    3. The rest of India wanting to secede from Uttar Pradesh leaving Mayawati as the sole proprietor of Lucknow, NOIDA and everything in between.

    Jokes apart, everytime you have an insurgency, you can’t rush to a referendum- let us first understand if the roots of the movement are truly indigenous.
    And, to all the lengthy quotes from Angana Chatterjee et al that we have been deluged with I say only this: Ms Chatterjee, try protesting American government policies by throwing stones on the Berkley campus at policemen and see what happens.

    [Reply]

    Shan Reply:

    It reminds me what margaret thatcher said in reply to demand for a referendum on Masstricht treaty , with EU. She said REFERENDUM ARE FOR DICTATORSHIPS , JUST LIKE THEY HOLD REFERENDUM TO EXTEND THEIR RULE, IN DEMOCRECY DECISIONS ARE TAKEN IN THE PARLIAMENT. Then gain how long this can go on , it is such a distraction, huge drain on resources, and it will never go away, unless there are lot of KOPA PAREY rising against it. Either people are afraid(like it happened in west bengal during 1970 naxal era), but then again naxalism was smothered by the joint action of congress and left parties. So unless NC and PDP(which may well be complicit)activist take head on these “so called azadi fringe, and they must be fringe , or else how do you have 65% turnover in elections. So I dont agree with BOBBY that you can make a generalisation that because some part of the population is shouting azadi , this represents the true aspiration of the people. And last there is a moral argument, which I am happy to be cast aside, nonetheless it is a valid argument that knowingly letting “kashmir Ki Kali” fall prey to the punjabi misdemenaeurs is immoral.Because that is exactly what is going to happen , just ask , a sindhi, baloch or altaf hussein who said partition is the greatest blunder in history presumably after watching the film REFUGEE , where BIHARI BANGLADESHI MUSLIMS WANTING TO CROOS OVER TO PAKISTAN IS SHOT WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION. And this is a portrayal of real life situation , as much pakistan’s heart bleeds for Kashmir PAKISTAN HAS FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO DENY PASSAGE TO BANGLADESHI BIHARIS(URDU SPEAKING , LIVES LIKE PIGS IN BANGLADESH)WANTING TO EMIGRATE TO PAKISTAN

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Pakistan is the villain here. Neuter them and things will become normal. It is not a country, but a cockroach.

    Shan, parliament and elected bodies decide as you mentioned, and not referndums.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    One of the causes of Kashmir problems is Muslim rulers not believing in Democracy and Secular model of india.

    they either paid lip service or act like dictators (just like they do in most muslim world).
    they mix religion with politics and create a mess.

    of course they are aided by across the border jihadists.

    it has very little to do with indian army or govt policies at the central govt.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Ashish

    Like your idea #3 . In despair, I also have thought about pre Nitin Bihar the same way….

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish/Gopi

    Refrendum for Up Bihar etc will take long, quicker options would be

    Golf Links New Delhi Cuffe Parade, Bandra, Worli, Vashi in Mumbai. Similar posh and rich areas, minimum population required can be about 10,000.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    just the point.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Death by thousand arrows, as secularists will say!

    [Reply]

  • Javed

    Zia, like most Indian Muslims, has developed a knack for appeasing his “majority community” by supporting the statist discourse on Kashmir, an essential part of which is to look at the Kashmir dispute from the Indo-Pak perspective, while effacing the suffering Kashmiris from the setting. To tell you frankly, Kashmiris are not impressed by the ten per cent growth rate of India. They just want to be freed from the crushing military occupation. That has been time and again exemplified by opinion polls which every time show Kashmiris don’t want to have anything to do with either India or Pakistan. Though 2 per cent still support Pakistan with all its failings, there is no taker for resurgent India. Why don’t you ask yourself Why? Better, you come to Kashmir for a fortnight and see for yourself.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Javed, you may be right, some kashmiris are not impressed by THE IDEA CALLED INDIA. India is an idea , where we celebrate difference and bask in its reflected glory, Also having seen most of the world ., the only thing that most impresses me about India is here you dont have the flag waving of nationalism. Just because there is no single trait that defines Indian , that is quite a liberating experience , you are just a human being unconstrained and free to wander in and out all the several subcultures of india. WE knew what happened to the idea called “pakistan” and the country called bangladesh. It is true Indians have got to terms with this mind set, as much as you rationalise, at the end of the day, if somebody chooses to jump in front of a car that is their state of mind. As they say “you can do only so much”.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    40 plus people were killed (while praying) in a Sufi mosque in Lahore yesterday. This comes one month after 120 people were killed (while praying )in an Ahmadiya mosque. Shite mosques have been attacked numerous times and many shites killed (generally when they were praying). Christian churches too. Not too many news about attacks on hindu temples have come up; I suspect that there are no Hindu temples left to be destroyed..

    These are the same people who are in the forefront of Kashmir liberation. Here is to my friends who are advocating freedom or clamouring that citizens’ wish should be granted – We let Kashmir go, and these crazies are five hundred (or however many) miles closer to other parts of India to inflict mayhem in other Muslim and non-Muslim areas.

    I will go one step further – any Indian Muslim who is so enamored by Kashmir and who wants freedom for Kashmir (what they really do not say is freedom for Kashmiri Muslims , and what they want is kashmir to go with Pakistan) is a traitor. Any Indian Hindu who wants this, call him a journalist or human rights activist.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @L Mirza,
    “Any Indian Hindu who wants this, call him a journalist or human rights activist.”
    Brilliant, simply brilliant.

    [Reply]

    abrar Reply:

    The dispicable incident in Lahore or other parts of pakistan(many suspect Indian intelligence involvement) cannot cover up the denial of rights to kashmiris.

    You may spin the srgument any way you want by calling Indian muslims traitors(62 years after your independence),however these Indian muslims are INDIANS unlike the kashmiris who are not as even recognised as such by UN.

    Your goverment claims to be helping Afghans with economic and development projects while it bleeds the people closer to home who have been demending their due rights for 62 years. Your Afghan policy is also a sham to deny Pakistan a friendly goverment in Kabul.

    [Reply]

  • vicky

    so list the troubles in the world you will have clear picture where trouble are and why it is in Russia, in India, in China, in Africa, in Indonesia lots of example are there why? Because they cant live with minorities when they turned into majority

    [Reply]

  • roger

    India, Pakistan, and Kashmir have always been one Hindu population for thousands of years until the fanatic Mughal dacoits came to India to plunder India’s wealth and convert the hindus into Muslims. The converted Muslims in India got their Pakistan by partition, so what right do they have to ask for Kashmir which was a saperate state and entity ruled by Hari Singh who joined with India.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    asking is one thing; giving is another. Let us hope our Govt will take smart and strong decision cutting off any secessionist demand from any part of the country.

    [Reply]

  • haleema

    I am from azad kashmir and i am a true pakistani patriot! I love Pakistan and will always do…. NO ONE CAN CHANGE THAT

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Thats too bad ………we are all discussing how this can be changed ! :o )

    Kidding ………actually, its good that you are a pakistani patriot – Pakistan needs as many patriots as it can get at this moment in history. It is people who hate pakistan and make it look bad internally and/or externally while living inside pakistan that are its biggest problem.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Why do muslim pakistanis and arab muslims want to kill Hindus in Kashmir ?

    is it the religion or nationalism ?

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Very true. I feel, Kashmiri movement lost its credibility, when they threw the their own
    neighbors, indigenous Kashmiri Pandits out of their valley (religion cleansing ?).

    It can gain legitimacy only when the movement includes some minority faces in the valley as well. (Even BJP had to include minority people in government to run the secular India). But if the movement is for establishing “Islamic Republic of Kashmir” solely for religious reasons, Hindus will have all the right to demand for a separate state/country for Hindus. What should happen to other muslims staying in rest of India? Kashmiri muslims think so fondly about their muslim brothers in Pakistan. Have they ever thought about the fellow muslims living in other parts of India, how Kashmir decision can affect their life?

    Having said these, we can’t put blame on someone’s wrong doing (uprooting Kashmiri Pandits) on the entire Kashmiri Muslim community. Similarly, we can’t put the blame of wrong doing of some members of Army to entire India. We don’t know whether major population in Kashmir wanted to displace Kashmiri Hindus. We don’t know whether they really hate India. Have we been alarmed unnecessarily (because people like Azhar and Haleema have loudmouth) ?

    Coming back to the original question: who has lost the plot ?

    To some extent Kashmiri Muslims : By throwing out one more Kashmiri who was not a muslim.
    To some extent the Indian government : It doesn’t know whether to take strict military action
    like Srilanka and Israel and end the struggle: or go by democratic way respecting the community involved. It tries to do both. But one job is a hindrance to the other.

    Well, there are other places in the world, which have lost their plot as well. US, UK have no clue what they are achieving in Iraq or Afghanistan. How their countries are going to be benefited by the death of their young soldiers. This is what a father of British soldier killed in Iraq war had to say http://current.com/12ida4c .
    On one side Iraqi person opposes US military presence, on the other side a bomb explodes near a Shea mosque. If both the communities had opposed ‘together’, there would not have been no occupation in their land. First get united, before fighting for a nation (same statement applies to Kashmir).

    Then the question changes to : should we follow the trend or set a trend?

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    @ Haleema – I am not sure you are patriotic Pakistani or just a parrot of Pakistani establishments (as they have many) chanting Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir ……. since last 63 years.
    You say you are from ‘Azad Kashmir’, if so, please enlighten us what do you mean by AZAD Kashmir? Is is AZAD Kashmir or Pak Held Kashmir (PHK)? Please ask Pak Government, Esteblishment, tribesman who stromed it after partition whether they themselves maintain it as AZAD or PAK HELD? What was about your AZADI when Pakistan who disown you as his own at all official mediams, was itself under Dictatorship (or Dictatorial democracy …… Ha ha ha)?
    Haleema if you are from so called Azad Kashmir, in that case what to talk of patriotism you are not even a true Muslim? Ask me how? You are under Pakistani occupation and are unpatriotic towards Kashmir being your own land? Is it the teachings of Islam? What your patriotism is doing when Governors imposed on PHK were declaring their credentials themselves and fighting like dogs? We know that no one can change your mind set as you have tied yourself like a donkey to a 1400 years old beautiful pillar? You see only those masters now who are feeding you and forgot even the beautiful colors of that pillar to which you are tied. We know that we cannot change your plutonic love because for that one should have brain and that brain should also have reasoning?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Patriotism is different for different people (of different countries)..For some it is a love of an eternal country (most Indians may be), for some it is the love of a principle (many in US to the notion of liberty and freedom).. There is always a foundational stuff around which the idea of patriotism is construed.

    What can there be “patriotic” about Pakistan? If it is the eternal country it should be no different from india – the sum total of the old India. If it is instituitions of democracy etc, there is none – it had nine prime mnisters in nine years after Liaquat Khan died; army has been in literal power since then, trampling on peoples rights, stealing away nation’s wealth; and of course the treacherous intra religious suicide bombings now.

    Through a process of elimination (since there are no institutions nor concepts), the patriotism in Pakistan may be the love of a religion. But even religion has failed them. It is reported that the Lahore Sufi shrine killings yesterday was conducted by two Muslim <ndividuals of age 18 and 24. What religion it is to send its 18 and 24 year old to kill their brothers who worship the same god? The only reason for killing fifty people was that they sing and dance while praying..

    If indeed a nation existed, there would not have been these factories where young minds are plucked from society and moulded into killing machines. And they come one after another, trained to kill even their parents and siblings.

    With all the faults of our politicians, bureaucracy, and ourselves; 100% of Indian mothers want their children to study, to do well in life (may be all want thir children to be doctors and engineers!). It seems Pakistani mothers have some other dreams, or nightmares – either forced on them or reconciled to the inevitability of Pakistan.

    Haleema, what does a patriotic Pakistani do these days?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Sardarji you will not understand Patriotic Pakistan, because of the hindu danda your sikh patriotism is dead, you have no choice but obey your masters.

    Where as Pakistan is concerned, yes we going throug tough times mostly of our own making but no doubt foreign hand playing a significant role, but we will recover from it. On the other side you sardarji’s will always be their subservients. Now go look it up and word Patriotic, means the same for all nations. It makes sense Sardarji you will not understand.

    SKChadha Reply:

    Azhar Bhai – I am happy to have some patriotic Pakistani who cares for his nation and I admire your feelings of being servent of your country. But what about masters of your country? Mind it now they are your elected representatives. If they would also have been the same, probably subservient moaning aquisence of Pakistan being under tough time would not have come in your writing. Where this patriotism goes when you are ruled by Danda (most of the time in your history of 63 years). What do you understand about Sikkhism? Forget about the teachings of Sikh Gurus, at least produce one person like our PM for betterment of your country. The seeds of haterd swone by Pakistan for believers of other faiths are now blooming and making Pakistan a garden of Peace and Love. Ameen …… !!!

    S singh Reply:

    Husain

    You are living in a world of denial. Your country is burning because of this cazy rush to prove whjo si a pure Muslim. Two days ago two young men, 18 and 24, wrapped themselves in suicide belts and exploded in a crowded sufi shrine; in Lahore all in the name of God, for religion..

    Sikhs in India are like any other citizens of India, having access, right, and responsibilities. The prime minister is a well loved and respected Sardarji. Obama respected him with the first (and only) state dinner he ever gave as President. Leaders all over respect him and seek out his advice. Now you may say, he does not have power and mrs Gandhi controls all the power. Who is Mrs Gandhi? She is not a Hindu, she was not even born in india.Do we care? No. Na.

    You guys should stop bvaming Israel, USA and India for your troubles. Terrorits all over the world are getting tarined there. by your ISi You have lost your country to the terrorists your government developed an dtarined.

    We consider India as our India, Arsh Bharath, not a Sikh Iland or Hindu Iland or a Jain India. You, as most of the Muslimsall over the world are (I do not include people like Syed, Mirza, Ahmer. Shoeb in this carzy group; I am sure theer is a silent minority who are fed up with the orthodoxies), cannot sepaarte the country from a religious dimension.

    The utter hoplelessness of Pakisatn has resulted in people clinching on the last straw – religion; because they cannot count on any institutions of government anymore. It is a dangerous, hopeless situation if religion is the only straw left. You yourself can judge from what is ahppening to your country. I.

    You say you are a Pakistani patriot — in what aspecst– are you proud of Pakistan’s common rich heritage with india; about Taxasila, about the great epic Mahabharath war that happened in the battlefields of Kurukshetra in the erstwhile punjab,(parts of which are in Pakistan), the great civilization tht sprang on the banks of Punjabs ribvers, the graeat first books ever written by the gurus meditating on the banks of those famous rivers; or does your history start only from Aurangazeb, as a part of the madrasa revolution tahat Ziaa HAaq pioneered? A country that wipes its history clean cannot exist as a real country.

    If Pakistanis were patriotic, how could they have allowed Zia Haq to destroy any semblance you may ahve had with love and respect of human beings who may not bne Muslims? Did Zia do that because he knew Pakisatnis will respect him if he passed the anti blasphemy law.

    I hope and pray your country prospers, that crazy “purist” Muslims do not take over your country, that it demolishes all terrorist Post gardiate centers, that civilian rule is anorm and not exception, that armya d ISI are under civilian control, that madrasas be shut down and in its place modern education centers are established, that institutions of excellence like we have in India like IIT/IIM/IISc/AIIMS etc get established, that children look forward to be scientisssts and teachers and not suicide belt wrapped terrorisst….

    Let me tell you, sky is the limit for well educated Sikhs in India (and abroad – Master Card just announced a new CEO, Ajay Banga, a sardarji from IIM in mid 80s) .

    Can you promise me a Sikh can be prime minister or president in Pakistan? IShut up, if yoy cannot..

    Sam Reply:

    Azhar..
    once pakistan has a prime minister from a minority religion of 2% (& non muslim), please come back and talk about india’s problems.

    until then,you are better of with your arab brothers …and dont bother india until you give up your language and write and speak and act 100% like arabs…

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SkS @arun @Chadha @Syed et al

    What we see among Kashmiri Muslims, and Muslims across our western neighbour and beyond is a drift toward an intolerant pseudoreligious fanaticism. Organizations like Islamic Brotherhood (Egypt) have done irrepairable damage to the world in general and Muslims in particular. Many leaders of Al-Queda got their start in Islamic Brotherhood. Wahabi/Salafis with KSA money has spread this message of hatred everywhere. To some extent they have achieved “converting” indegenous Muslims to radical, purist “araab” Muslims. The pursuit of pureness in Islam by these circles result in frenetic ranting and condemnantions of everything new and different all across the Muslim world, sadly, including India. Arun can very well be a Muslim espousing this hatred.

    Syed, in a blog while ago, posed a wonderful argument – Islam and Muslims had an age of enlightenment, where ideas from others were accepted, science and technology advanced, great books were written, where the court of Calphs had Jewish and Christian scholars in addition to Muslim scholars etc, and something happened where all these came to a halt. His argument was the “Muslim problem” will go away if Islam can revert/regain to the processes and practices that created the golden age.

    In that light I advise Muslims and Muslim societies learn from Muslim leaders of the past, like Ibn al-Nafis , the 13th century religious scholar, philosopher and scientist who called for tolerance in hearing out opposing views.

    But I know many will listen to Al-Awlaki in stead of al-Nafis. Those are the perilous times we live in. And those hate is behind Kshmiri Muslim problem or Pakistanni Muslim problem. It has nothing to do with noble aspirations, say “we want to create a Golden Kashmir”. And I hate to say this; it is present in the Indian (Muslim) polity too, and government should keep an eye on this, and do not yield to the secularist ranting of freedom and discrimination.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Mirza

    What a timely piece! Militant “purist” Muslims cut off a hand of a college professor (in Muvatypuzha, near kochi) who was returning from today’s Sunday church services. The reason they did this was because the professor gave an exam in Malayalam literature; and one question was apparently about prophet’s position on certain aspects of the time.

    That this happened in tolerant, educationally advanced, “religions coexisting harmoniously” Kerala makes it interesting (and alarming!)

    Sam Reply:

    @raju
    can you give more details about this hand cut off event ?

    why so much intolerance ? while hiding behind lofty words of peace..

    SKChadha Reply:

    @ L Mirza,
    Mirza Sahib, in clash of civilizations every section want to maintain its identity and propagage its ideas. Even if we presume that Darwin’s Theory of ‘Struggle for existance’ is taking its toll, I do not see any benefit to Islam from so called purist or redical Muslims. History suggest that propagation of religion cannot be achived by intolerance, pseudoreligious fanatiscism or terrorism. Any religion can be propagated only by its teaching of love towards humanity and not by hate mongring or terrorism. The path adopted by redicals is nothing but clash of civilizations in the name of religion and not propagation of beautiful teachings of Islam. This is persuation of pure political agenda for personal gains. Please read the comments of such redical elements … they refect only the hate mongring, discrimination or social dissatisfaction. You have rightly pointed out that tolerance in hearing our oppsing views is necessary to pure ourselves for better social living. What has happened in Afghanistan and happening in Pakistan is not propegation of faith by any means. Do we allow the same thing to happen in J&K in the name of religion? Whatever we may say Arun has brains and his writings reflect to agitate the masses towards sporadic incidents of attrocities towards a section of society. Only thing that he has to B +ve not by blood but by brain.

    Sam Reply:

    >History suggest that propagation of religion cannot be achived by intolerance, pseudoreligious fanatiscism or terrorism.

    maybe you need to read a different version of history, where Mohd fought battle after battle and vanquished infidel and converted the rest to islam..

    please do not get hung up on your ideal version of doing things, as the only version possible.

    if you think for doing something, plan A is not feasible and only plan B is the true way,,
    you have to overcome your own dogma.

    violence has been used and was successful to a great degree in propagating islam.

    SKChadha Reply:

    Sam – if what you say is correct, why the entire Indus Valley civilization is not converted to Islam. One may get gain in politicalization or redicalization a society but it can never convert the entire population to one way of thinking. Mind it two is a company and three is a crowd. By adopting a particular religion our neighbourig country may politicalise the religion. Please understand that basic phylosophy of Islam is ‘Universal Brotherhood’. Have they achieved it? Do you find more Muslims by heart in Pakistan? Did the propagators of Islam envisaged a society like Afghnistan or Pakistan on world map? If you talk of true teachings of the religion known as Islam, I still maintain that our social living is many times more Islamic than Pakistan. Sam, our civilization despite living for longest period under invadors is still existing, thriving and attracting attention of the masses world over for solace and peace. Is it not? I think I am becoming to phylosophical …….. !!! Leave it?

    SKChadha Reply:

    Sam,

    “Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya Glanirva Bhavathi Bharatha, Abhyuthanam Adharmasya Tadatmanam Srijami Aham, Paritranaya Sadhunaam Vinashaya Cha Dushkritaan Dharma Sansthapnaya Arthaya Sambhawani Yuge Yuge.”

    Do you feel that time has come?

    shan Reply:

    @Azhar Mia, Can you please tell us the religion og the current prime minister of punjab.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Azhar Mia, sorry typo, it is : Can you please tell us the religion of current prime minister of India.

    farid Reply:

    I am a Bangladeshi——-living in USA.
    Pakistani patriots killed us indiscriminately,set on fire our properties——–we could have forgotten those————–we are happy now having our flag flying high. But we can not forget the cruelty of those PAK patriots who —————our mothers and sisters in the name of religion and patriotism.
    Now Pakistanis are killing their own peoples——-? —-their women folk———-what a pity.
    We can pray for them only and request them to beware of ———–PAKISTANI ARMY.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @L. Mirza
    Thanks for introducing much needed, but stubbornly avoided, precision in the problem definition. There is no Kashmir problem just a Kashmiri Muslim’s problem.

    The question of Kashmir is neither moral nor legal. It isn’t about Freedom either, whether economic or political. Nor history

    At its core, it is an old problem : it is Hate for non-muslims masquerading as some righteous struggle for freedom and dignity, thanks to our Secularism. But then Indian secularism has long perfected the trick of making the right rape look like divine union of bodies.

    When a residential society/individual turns down a Muslim tenant/buyer, it is the poison of ‘Hindu’ communalism, when a whole state refuses to live (reality is many degrees higher) with Hindus, it is ‘Kashmiris’ fight for freedom. [No wonder even Dr. Zakir Naik approves. Congratulations, Mr Mahesh Bhatt and buddies, well done, a higher accolade for secularism is not known to exist, i. e. for your kind of secularism].

    That the above-mentioned opinion poll shows little support for merging with Pakistan, is irrelevant to the central question of Hate. While Hate reigns supreme, the more worldly concerns do trump the brotherhood of hereafter.
    Perhaps, the difference between the real picture, as someone tried to explain above, (pointing to the Pakistani flags on rooftops) and the one based on the opinion poll, could simply be the difference between ‘what they really are’ and ‘what they want to be seen as’ for the world at large. To have sympathy, for people willing to die for merging with Pakistan; the global terror factory, you’d have to , either be one of those people or a sensitive psychiatrist. This apparent preference for independence over merging with Pakistan does not make this conflict nonsectarian, except in the minds of ideologically blinkered seculars mob.

    Anyways. At one level, one could treat Kashmir’s separation as a necessary surgery and for good measure let that be done as per UN resolution i. e. Let them chose between Pakistan and India. If they chose Pakistan, they deserve it and they must have it.
    But will that be the Closing Memorandum for partitions’ unfinished business? No way, there is no one-time settlement for us, no matter what price are we ready to pay. Think Khalistan, think the difference (I can already hear: who is we? Do you own it? who are you to pay the price? What closure? Isn’t this about Kashmiris first and last? ).

    As it is today so will it be tomorrow, terrorists from west, infiltrated from east with army of secular buffoons in the middle defending our Composite culture and heritage (of course excluding Kashmir, mantra of composite culture doesn’t work here ) from the Poison of Hindu communalism.

    One more thing, HR violations by security forces is a serious problem in its own right but to pitch that as one of the reasons, behind the hate that drives the Muslims of Kashmir is just another mean trick of our secularists. To be sure, the official history of our times, will have different tales to tell in years to come, but for now, the cause-effect equation is indisputable. HR violations did not precede terror.

    Moreover, as Omar said, you need to be careful with the definition of HR abuses in the current context. It is not like security forces are bursting open the doors and shooting at will.

    Separatists’ (and their backers) concern for an innocent’s death is directly proportionate to the utility of that death for their cause, which basically depends on who the killer is. In this scheme of things, Deaths, during stone pelting count for nothing, but Deaths while security forces are trying to contain stone pelting mobs has seperatists’ blood on boil. If you really are so concerned about children and their lives why do you put 9 year old kids in front of stone pelting mobs? (Someone pointed out yesterday, when security forces shoot on mobs they are trained to shoot low, below hip, for children that height could be fatal). The children are simply being used, as fuel to keep the fire burning for the fire or as human shields, all this for the cause.

    Quite apart from the issue of Kashmir, we do have some ‘Real’ ( not Batla house types) Human Rights problems. After failing to take swift and decisive action against the officers involved in some of the most shameful incidents (like fake encounters for promotions, for gallantry prizes etc), our security forces have weakened their moral claim on continuation of AFSPA. This inability or reluctance to punish their own rogues points to a very sad state of affairs. They must realize that even staunchest of the nationalists will have trouble defending them for long if perpetrators of such incidents remain unpunished or are punished only when compelled to.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Succint summarization.
    You are right; letting them vote and choose will not end this or cause a closure.
    The kids who are put out in the front to throw stones are put by the same people who send young men to explode in Lahore and Mumbai. The Kashmiri Muslim problem was a Pakistani military creation for its self preservation; however now they find in an existential threat because they overplayed these tricks.
    It has nothing to do with aspirations (my foot!); and as you said everything to do with bigotry and hate. And letting them go will be so stupid for India, clearly telling the world that Indian democracy does not meet the aspirations of its people. India has done several stupid things, including letting this problem fester.
    One of the commentators indicated that the world has changed in the lat sixty years; China becoming world power etc, and the problem cannot be seen vis-a-vis a 1947 background. India will be an idiot if we go by what Nehru promised then.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @SKS Mumbai, As I have reiterated several times , if someone chooses to jump in front of the car(Azadi) , that may denote his state of mind, but at the end of the day it is his life and he chooses to end that way , not much you can do. In fact kashmir has become a huge drain on resources , and a constant distraction , so they should let the valley only seccede, we should not mourn but rahter say good riddance.

    [Reply]

    SR Reply:

    If any body believes all these Seculars are true to the meaning of the word SECULAR, they must be fools. Many of these are oppurtunists with one leg already on the other boat with one leg only to topple their old boat.

    [Reply]

  • SKChadha

    @ SKS & Gopi Thomas – It is not my nature to spit venom by hiding my identity. People hiding behind mask may take years to understand what a society, religion or secularism is? I am not defending excesses by anybody, whether forces or terrorist? I just say that when one quote gray areas, or collateral damages of any society, it reflects anger but certainly not the mass appeal. I am nobody to teach anybody secularism, democracy or what is good or bad about a nation. What surprises the masses of India is that the people who do not practice democracy or secularism try to teach others plebiscite, right of self determination etc. Sometimes, the errors of social wrong doings against them fuel their fire and make them blind and revengeful. The peaceful co-existence or secular beauty of India or Hinduism is beyond even their imagination. To them it may take years to understand the secularism or Hinduism that is practiced since time immemorial in and around Indus Valley Civilization.
    I am not a Gyani like others but have read in records that inhabitants of Indus Valley civilization were termed by Greeks as ‘indoi’. In a later period this designation was extended onward i.e. to all persons living upto Gangatic plains. The entire race was also known as ‘Sindhu’ or ‘Hindu’, please read history carefully. Pre-Islamic history suggests that Iranians also came to this region and amalgamated with this race and were termed as ‘Aryans’. They are also presently known and termed as ‘Hindus’. The ‘Hinduism’ denotes a distinct social way of living and its teachings are meant only for social order. These teachings descanted from time immemorial and Adi Vedas. The adi Vedic Chants have no described author. The term ‘Hindu’ came in significance only with invasion of people from other civilizations i.e. Arabs and Europeans. It is during that period that ‘indoi’ ‘Sindhu’ or ‘Hindu’ became a separate identity from Arabians (Islam) or West Asian/ Europeans (Christians, Jews, Persians etc.). The Islamic culture being theocentric remained distinct in its approach before British. On the other hand most remarkable feature of Hinduism is that it has always permitted religious innovations and thus time and again new dimensions are added to its social way of life in this region. Movements after movements have taken place since time immemorial sometimes discarding some old practices and rituals and other times reviving some old practices and rituals in the name of purification of our social life. Besides from time to time new innovations have also been made in it. The people of this sub-continent whether they follow any sect or religion are continued to be ‘Indoi’ by Genome. I have specifically not used the word ‘Hindu’ here to avoid rhetoric. The impact of Islam and Hinduism is seen to some extent in ‘Sufism’ and ‘Sikkhism’. The religious tolerance to some extent brought harmony in these two cultures during Mughal and British Period. The Muslims of this region, though of same genome identity, have faith in Islamic traditions. In ancient Adi Vedic society “Adwetwaad” (God is one) and ‘Absence of Moorti Pooja’ (reintroduced by Arya Samaj) are akin to Islamic belief. Please enlighten me about the errors committed by me in understanding this civilization of which we all are part?
    It is the divide and rule policy which has drawn line on this beautiful land 63 years back and Congress and Muslim League blame each other for this divide. Surprisingly, even in these blogs even today some fertile brains are propagating overtly or covertly the policy of separatism, hate and religious moan, groan and grumble.
    Dear SKS and Gopi we all have to be very careful from such bloody wolves which are living in society with their disruptive, destructive fertile brains. These wolves do not leaving any opportunity of hate mongering between one type of ‘Indoi’ (which are across the border) against other ‘indoi’ (Indians). For these wolves Rambhakts, Krishnabhakts, Sheviaits etc are only ‘Indoi’ or ‘Hindus’ or ‘Sindhus’ whatever you call them. To Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Sufis, nomads etc., they use only for their convenience? What do you consider them? This so called subjugated wolves continue hate mongering even in this blog with their fertile brain. They even hide themselves behind the mask of nationalism, secularism, sectarianism, religion, cast, creed etc. They are doing this for years with no fruitful outcome. Sir, I bow with admiration for such brainy wolves. Who cares for innocent civilians or valiant solders’ lives lost by society in Kashmir or elsewhere …. !!!

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Chada

    Yes, five thousand years ago, our ancestors pleadings and prayers to celestial beings and nature’s abundance always included “Loka samastha sukhino bhavandu” and not “indus valley sukhino bhavandu”.
    They knew how important “Santi” ws for the well being and sustence of all living beings, and ended all their prayers with “aum shanti shanti shanti”.,

    And , when there were no divisions, anticipating differences, they gave the dictum “Ekam sad vipra bahudh vadanti” .

    So, acceptance, love, adaptation etc as u mentioned is in our blood from time immemorial.

    However, force has to be applied in certain situations; for not applying will cause a calamity later affecting many many.

    As the great sage said “ne se bala syethi chare da dharma”

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    Gopi – I remember Yeshu’s beautiful teaching “Prabhu Inhen Maaf Kar Dena Kyonki Yeh Khud Nahin Jante Ye Kya Kar Rahe Hain”. I hope hate mongers will realize it and instead of spereding hate and disgust will come with constructive solutions to make this land a garden of peace and harmony. I admire your teachings of “Neeti Shastars” for controling the bad omens in our social living.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    If we go by original definition of “Hindu” (people who lived by the river Sindhu), it would be Pakistanis who should be called Hindus (as Sindhu river flows in current Pak). But I don’t think, they fancy that name much :-)

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    Vinay – It is we who have drawn lines on this beautiful land. In the process the people who should have been a guiding light of our civilization have infact lost their own indentity? There is no error in following the beautiful teachings of Islam, Christianity, Judaism or for that matter any religion or sact. Because “Majhab Nahin Sikhata Aapas Main Bair Rakhna”, it is also not my lines but of one of the founder fathers of our neighbouring country. What hurts that in process few of us have lost their genome, identity or a particular way of social living for which this civilization is known of? Question for consideration is whether such situation should be allow to develop in J&K region?

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Arun
    I read most of your comments at least twice. Really, you are different and certainly a lot more honest than the usual band of Indians, we normally hear from, about issues like Kashmir.

    Your ‘Kashmiris Hate Us, Pakistani Flags vs Indian flags, kind of facts are rarely mentioned and on the rare occasions when they are, never with such clarity. India needs honest people like you who can use blogs like this to spread the word, let all Indians know the true state of affairs.

    I agree with a lot of what you say, a bit more clarity (your style) will be wonderful:

    1. Are you sure that all Kashmiris hate us? That would mean the Kashmiri Pundits or what is left of them, also hate us? What about Shia Muslims?

    2. Do they hate all the indians? are there pockets/groups/ community/class (take any basis language, religions, caste, rich/poor classes, profession, sex, skin color) which are not hated by them?

    3. Some light on why do they hate us and since when? 1947? 1980? Or 1989? Rigged elections, human rights violations, killing of innocents, rapes, or concentration camps ? (Frankly, that is not terribly important).

    4. You want the Indian state to get out of Kashmir, basically because Kashmiris hate Indians. That is easy. Once a political decision is made and Indian forces withdraw, Kashmiris won’t have to live with people they hate. It wasn’t as easy some 20 years ago, but the good work done since then has ensured that Kashmir would be completely free from anything Indian, including memories.

    Now, what would be your advice to other people, who would like to emulate Kashmiris?

    Take a hypothetical example: state A has 90-95% ‘X’ People and 5-10% ‘Y’ . Xs start hating all Ys and want A to be free of Ys. (I am sure you’d agree that Hate does not need just reason). I guess X can take your support for granted. What should be their strategy?

    1. Invite criminals and bullies from adjacent towns with the objective of terrorizing Ys. A statement of intent can be conveyed through a couple of carefully chosen targets where the Bullies get to demonstrate their capabilities.
    2. In the next stage, issue warnings through public loudspeakers, telling Ys to vacate A, and in case Y females are good looking, then you may ask Y’s to leave them behind.
    3. Monitor the progress and at the right moment declare the State as X Republic of A.

    Neat! What say Arun?

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Would like to get more ppl to respond to Gautam Chikermane’s blog below. The more the merrier!

    http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/just-faith/2010/06/13/islam-has-a-branding-problem-millatfacebook-ceo/#respond

    [Reply]

  • kattarvaadi

    The kashmir struggle is pure and simple. kashmir should have become an islamic state in 1947, but circumstances, (india saving kashmir from pathan raiders) made them go for India. Now suddenly they discovered their love for islam is more than their love for plural India. hence the problem. All talk of azadi is same, islamic state- nizaam e mustafa. Blaming pakistan is pointless, blaming islamic fanaticism is the point. They took their anger out on the hapless hindu minority, and now they complain that the (hindu) army is committing atrocities. Was there any atrocity for 40 years 1948-88? some kashmir muslims I met are so fanatic, they want to make the whole India islamic, even nepal. Well, get ready for the holocaust.

    [Reply]

    abdulallah Reply:

    not only india or nepal dear but whole world u wl see it soon inshaallahh…………
    we want and will get freedom………..

    [Reply]

    kattarvaadi Reply:

    Whole wolrd inshallah? Well, we kaffirs outnumber you 5 to 1. Secondly if ALL non-muslims join forces against islam , what you gonna do? Lets fight the good fight. The world has to come together to defeat islam like it did nazism and communism.

    [Reply]

    indian Reply:

    Your analysis is exactly to the point. All other versions are only to camoflage this evil design. They have bought many secularists, media etc ( again camoflaged as secularists) only as a part of this evil agenda. The Puppets religion is like a Mouse Trap.

    [Reply]

  • Abdul

    Kashmir speaks mostly what Pakistan asks them to. And Pakistan speaks what their Army asks them to. Pak Army speaks what ISI asks them to. The result – terrorism, killing thousands of innocent people all over India {and now all over the world}, distortion [or destruction] of Islam, de-locating Kashmiri Pandits, some opportunist leaders and corruption. I don’t know if that’s called freedom fighting. And freedom for whom – these terrorists so that the same Pak rule could be extended into Kashmir? India is the best secular country in the world. India has always maintained an excellent balance. This has happened only because Hidus are way more democratic and secular than any other religion. Go to any other country, you will see lots of policies and holidays are only for the majorities. Forget about Muslim majority countries – minorities have no rights, nothing.

    It seems Kashmir issue is much more of a religious fanaticism and Pakistan’s shadow fighting [and also China's politics] than true freedom movement. These same people do not fight to free up the other part {POK} which is illegally occupied and tortured by Pakistan for years. Since this has much more religious color (Kashmiri Pandits are never truly considered for any Kashmir decision – that’s another indication of religious color) I strongly believe that Indian Muslim leaders can play a huge role in stopping this menace and dictat them live like the Indian themselves. People can ask, why Muslims – this is because as I said, this movement has lot more religious color than anything else. Also most of the terroriests who organized attacks on innocent Indians lived in minority dominated area and there are lots of incidents when Pakistani flags were hoisted or procession in support of Pakistan cricket team were taken out in some those dominated areas. Forget about India, in any country this will create suspicion. This is their moment to clean up that wrong impression.

    [Reply]

    abdulallah Reply:

    wIn wt world r u living
    do u know any thing…………..
    i am talking to bunch of animals who only know to hunt……..

    [Reply]

  • http://www.timesofindia.com ddlg

    Hello mr gaddar your tag line is like that a hindi doha 100 chuho ko marke billi haj ko chali u idiots first get out of india you bloody muslims..

    [Reply]

  • Dr. O. P. Sudrania

    The point of India taking the issue first to UN is fed to them by….and is an old stale rut like other parroted arguments of plebiscite, self determination and etc; all of which are not relevant save their application. But then I can not understand their psyche? Should India have done the way Pakistan did in Balochistan or the China did in Xinxiang? I think that would have been the best solution, perhaps they want to indicate. But the difficulty is that India is not Pakistan based on Jihadi and Taqqiya principles.
    God bless.
    Dr. O. P. Sudrania

    [Reply]

  • shailesh

    whts so azad about azad kashmir, its only PoK

    [Reply]

  • Jindal

    In late October 2008, on the eve of the election that would elevate him to the White House, Barack Obama made some of the most expansive comments about the Kashmir conflict that have ever come from an American presidential candidate. In an interview with Joe Klein of Time magazine, Obama acknowledged that Kashmir’s disputed territory was “obviously a potential tar pit diplomatically,” and yet, he continued:

    For us to devote serious diplomatic resources to get a special envoy in there, to figure out a plausible approach, and essentially make the argument to the Indians, you guys are on the brink of being an economic superpower—why do you want to keep on messing with this? To make the argument to the Pakistanis, look at India and what they are doing—why do you want to keep on being bogged down with this particular [issue] at a time when the biggest threat now is coming from the Afghan border? I think there is a moment when potentially we could get their attention. It won’t be easy, but it’s important.

    It was refreshing to hear an American politician speak honestly and seriously about Kashmir. It is for India’s leadership to articulate it to Pakistan in strong terms and actions to get past it before China starts meddling. BTW, for those who aren’t aware, 11,000 PLA troops are already in Gilgit-Baltistan as of two weeks ago.

    [Reply]

  • Dr. O. P. Sudrania

    For this reason, I have said it respectfully that Mr MM Singh is a good person but a politician with doubtful credentials. It is first time that this size of mess has been created in Kashmir. I highly short sighted business conducted in Kashmir. MM is on the throne for last about 7 yrs and yet he has no clue of Kashmir politics. They are all calling repeatedly that it is a political problem. Indirectly it is a slap on his face. Very unfortunate that this situation has been allowed to grow. Mrinal Pandey is quite right to question and I agree with her in entirety.
    God bless
    Dr. O. P. Sudrania

    [Reply]

  • http://browsinginfo.sauropol.com/ Kelli Larriva

    why dont you put tweetme or sharing buttons on your blog? I wanted to share this post with my friends. But cant find the facebook button to post it.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sanjay-Choudhry/703891475 Sanjay Choudhry

    Vinod Sharma — Congress ka dalal

    [Reply]

  • Guest

    With the new FM having taken charge, a serious exercise should start to assess how far reality is likely to diverge from the budget numbers on tax revenues, expenditure and the fiscal deficit. There is enough time to take whatever remedial measures the government thinks are appropriate.

    [Reply]