Give me dignity, or give me death



By no measure, do I wish to risk comparison with the revolutionary Virginian, Patrick Henry, but truthfully, my angst is no less now than his, when he rose to speak against Britain’s tyranny at the Virginia Convention in 1775.

This great country is ours. We are sons of the soil. I think we can have no greater virtue than patriotism. But let this be said: Dignity or else death, emancipation or else revolution, fair deal or disintegration. And if this is ‘victim mentality’, then so be it. Victimisation cannot beget anything better.

Our names still spell suspicion, our existence worth no more than contempt. We continue to be condemned to second-class citizenship with a sort of bias that is kicked by the boots of the State machinery. The high echelons may avow equality but the left hand knows not what the right hand does.

A young boy in remote Assam, returning from the passport office, tells stories of ignominy. His name sounds incredibly “alien” to the officers. He is asked about his forefathers and where they came from. I ask where did the “Ahoms” come from? Burma and beyond.

Minority institutions, such as St. Stephens in Delhi and Bishop Cotton in Bangalore, are to be fancied as elite, whereas such status for our institutions is to be denied.

Salim’s family, unlike everyone else’s, never got the Rs 5-lakh compensation for being killed in an explosion at the Sufi shrine Ajmer Sharif. After all, he was the ‘terrorist’ who died killing others. Salim was lowered in his Hyderabad grave with the badge of a terrorist. Yet, conclusive leads have now led us somewhere else. Why prejudge us every single time?

When our religious institutions are attacked, we are intuitively blamed, without free or fair exercise of due processes of law and logic.

Bias against us has become a “hidden Apartheid”. It lies latent. When necessary conditions are met, it breaks out.

In Delhi’s Batla House shootout, two alleged terrorists were killed by police. They may well have been terrorists. Probably they are. However, the National Human Rights Commission cut some dangerous corners when it was called to probe the ‘encounter’.

It is not about the NHRC’s findings but the processes that were followed to reach the conclusion, which erode its credibility. The rights body chose not to do the basic things expected of a rights watchdog.

In a dispute, every party has to be heard. Wasn’t this settled by Socrates himself? In respect of the Batla House incident, one may well go on to agree with the police (that the police fired in self-defence and those killed fired on the police first). But the panel should have heard the complainants whose complaint was the basis for the probe in the first place.

Why was Pakistani terrorist Kasab given a fair trail? Because we do not wish to be a banana republic that relies on kangaroo courts.

As our stature grows internationally, so must our commitment to uphold the rights of each of our citizens.

The NHRC did not cross-examine anybody. It did not even examine the site of the incident. The NHRC is probably the only rights watchdog that comprises several retired police personnel, when rights violation by law-enforcing agencies should remain one of its chief pursuits. This is clear conflict of interest. Is this justice?

Our democracy lies bruised if it does not include the due process of law and fair trials. Is this what our founding fathers fought and died for? How long will they round up the usual suspects? Isn’t our sense of security illusory? Let’s have a rights-respecting police force.

The great redeeming feature of this nation is that right-minded people from the majority community who stand up for the rights of the minorities abound. But I am constrained to say, such people are in the minority.

I have no way of judging our place, other than by the attitudes we face, the countenance we command and the smugness we stomach. Our place is not where our founding fathers wanted us to be, but where we stand on the streets today and in the simmering neighbourhoods of our cities. If our present is fettered, can our future be free?

Yet, this is no call to arms, nor an occasion to retreat but a call to action. Let’s deepen, not weaken, our stake in the system.

Let each one of us get an education and occupy positions that higher education can get.

I despise the Muslim who cannot think beyond his nose and religion. I oppose the blind Muslim, just as I oppose the blinkered nationalism that goes by the name of Hindutva.

However, it would be escapist nonsense to think that education alone can change things. For us, democratic politics remains the lever of justice. We need to wield control over, support and strengthen political parties that are disposed to ensure justice for us. We need to transform ourselves from mere political pawns to powerful political leaders.

We need to pursue science and wealth relentlessly. A wealthy Muslim is resilient to prejudice. Income is a function of education and skills.

When we achieve that, let not our prosperity blind us to the requirements of justice, lest we should treat others badly.

Let’s not be self-seeking or easily angered. “If anyone says ‘I love God’ and does not love his brother, he is a lair.” (John 4:20-21).

Let each one of us fight for our rights in a way we have best known from our apostle of peace. Let’s be obstinate when we demand justice, respect and dignity. Let’s be uncompromisingly stubborn with righteousness. That is closer to Gandhi’s way, than any other.

We are not the enemy. Brothers, live free or die. To quote the French, vivre libres ou mourir.

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  • http://thegoofysufi.blogspot.com Amit Julka

    hi zia, and here’s my two cents….

    i agree, that the anti-muslim bias in our society is shocking….what is even more troubling is that most bigots I have seen around me are educated and wealthy…And ya, as far St.Stephen being given more prestige than a ‘Saint Salim’ has much to do with the image of the 2 communities…One is construed to be progressive and educated, and the other the exact opposite…The only way out it seems, is from inside the community….First of all, educate!educate!educate!…..there’s no greater equalizer…secondly, get out of the victim/minority mindset(difficult, considering the kind of treatment given to the community, but still its important)….Instead of imagining yourselves as the biggest minority, why not imagine yourselves as the ’second biggest majority’…..And third of all, break free from the yoke of religion…don’t give it up, but make it a private/individual matter…Stop trying to justify everything by the Quran/Hadith…..Personally speaking, I m a hindu n I eat beef and don’t really give a damn about what the texts say….what i feel is good,i absorb….what i feel should be discarded, i discard…..i think i could go on and on….so email me sometime….and lets discuss it over some beer(/tea if you are teetotaller!)…..khuda hafiz….

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    ” I m a hindu n I eat beef and don’t really give a damn about what the texts say….what i feel is good,i absorb”

    Amit, my friend please elaborate on your analysis of good vs. bad when it comes to eating red meat. Please dont say its about how you ‘feel’ and not how you ‘think’ because a lot of nonsense can be justified that way.

    Also, one small correction – you are not a practising hindu, you were only born in a hindu family. Hindu is what Hindu does……khuda hafiz !

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    KD,
    I too eat beef and I can prove that I am a better Hindu than you. Stop judging who is practicing or non practicing Hindu.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Hi Akash,
    If I may ..
    I think the point is slightly different. Eating beef or not is not germane to the debate.
    I eat beef too; but, I would not like to hold that up as a mark of secularism as Amit Julka (or Mani Aiyer) did. That way, a vegetarian is the biggest bigot! And, we will start asking Muslims to eat pork to prove they are secular. That would be silly.
    And, KD was (if I read him right) reacting to a broader thrust in Amit’s post where he also says, in the same sentence I don’t give a damn what the scriptures say . Surely, KD has a point when he says Amit is not a “practicing” Hindu but merely born in one?
    The point is not who is a better Hindu or not; KD never said that.

    Akash Reply:

    Ashish,
    “I don’t give a damn what the scriptures say”. KD is quoting that from Julka. I agree with you; I wonder why we are even mentioning that eternal Gandhi family lapdog–Aiyer. Actually, I pointedly disagree with him that eating beef would preclude me from being a practicing Hindu. It does not. Mercifully, I don’t have to face a fatwa on this one.

    shan Reply:

    Guys , you all have a completely wrong meaning of the” secular”. It has nothing to do with eating habits. Secular means when the STATE and its functioning is impervious to religion. wHAT YOU EAT IT YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE, AS FAR HINDUS ARE CONCERNED , they used to beef like anything, thier favoured one was veal, the shastra are replete with such reference. Regarding pork and islam it is xeroxed from jewish dietary laws. If religion is like a card carrying member of a political organisation , then obviously you cannot transgress , but if it is about something transcendental as providence, then discriminating pork in favour of chicken or beef , should appear rather silly or tripe to the transcendental one., because the ones that did not dicriminate against the pork , did rather well , in fact were it not for them non pork eaters would not be able to visit the porn sites , which they do in such a vigour that Iran ranks first.

    Sam Reply:

    For some of you..
    Who are beef eating hindu secularists..
    –in your opinion, you passed secularism test

    so find your counterparts in islam..
    — deal with pork eating muslims only
    (that would be people like Jinnah)..

    KD Reply:

    Akash,

    A little bit of that red meat is showing with your knee-jerk reaction of anger. Because Jhulka doesnt care what the scriptures say and eats red meat because he likes to “absorb what he feels is good”, I am only asking him where his good feelings about red meat come from.

    I am more interested in his logic than his being more Hindu or less Hindu because of his eating habits. I certainly believe that if you are a better Hindu than I am, your superiority shouldnt depend on your eating habits alone. If you are a better Hindu than me, I am sure you will agree.

    R. Gopalakrishnan Nair Reply:

    Can you get any muslim friend to subscribe your view saying that he eats pork and give a damn to Quaran. Then I will take you as a good sincere invidual.

    Sam Reply:

    Let us start a movement.

    This for

    “Peaceful transfer of unhappy muslims to Pakistan”

    Can someone form a charity organization for this and collect donations and funds ?

    Anyone can contribute to it.

    Secular muslims can show their true secularism by donating to this fund.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    If you want death, is there a preferred way ?

    please tell us more…

    [Reply]

    Mitra Reply:

    Yes, the level of bias against Muslims in Indian society is shocking, but that is not the only thing holding back Muslims in India. Mullahs with their reactionary attitudes (look at some Deoband fatwas) is also to blame. Why do so many educated Muslims defend polygamy? We should fight bias against Muslims in Indian society- it is a shame that it is harder for a Muslim to rent an apartment in India or get a job etc, but the ineffective and backward political and religious leadership of the Muslims is also to blame for their plight.

    The point about St Stephens College is weird. Is our friend Zia loosing his mind?! The day a Muslim institution achieves the level of excellence of St Stephens College, people will definitely give it equal respect. That can’t be done by persecuting gay professors!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Mitra and Amit,
    I think Zia goes through this ritual purgatory every 4-5 months where he was to rehash the old worn out topics again and again. Sometimes it takes the form of housing discrimination, sometimes not being allowed to pray in a public park, etc. The misfortune of the Muslim community is that whoever attains some sort of voice in the popular media gets coaxed into this vortex of perpetual angst. It’s almost become a literary genre; it’s also getting quite wearisome. Pull up your socks and get working man.
    When it comes to discrimination, Zia should do well to remember that the India state is remarkably catholic in its approach. I mean, haven’t we heard of brutal treatment of tribals and our people in North East. As for housing discrimination, c’mon now. As a Bihari living in Delhi in the 90s, I can write stories that would move grannies to tears. Does it solve anything? Of course, some lumpen elements from my state were responsible too. As for the Batla House case, I thought it was settled by NHRC findings. So, are we going to argue Supreme court pronouncements just because the majority in the bench was Hindu??

    As for this statement:
    “fair deal or disintegration..”
    No mate. You don’t want to go there. Once was enough. I would stand by you to fight discrimination but if you are gunning for that, well, all bets are off.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Akash,
    … Lierary genre…. made my day

    Akash Reply:

    Lol that’s true. Have a look at Farzana Versney. Her gripe is that she failed at arts, modeling, painting, etc. So she latches on to one sure fire thing: the perpetual angst of the Ummah in India. It’s such idiotic nonsense and I am just shocked that so much of excellent intellect is wasted in worthless issues.

    Ashish Reply:

    Farzana Vershney.. excellent intellect.. in the same sentence??

    I will shut up now :-)

    Akash Reply:

    I guess I may be the only one to give her that honorific title. The damage is done, though.

    Sam Reply:

    Have you seen discrimination against Hindus in Saudi ?

    Please do not fall for this complaining and start appeasing every thing.

    appeasement politics have brought India so far..
    lose land, give up everything..
    ancient hindu lands are now proud to be islamic..

    if you keep giving, this appeasement will never stop.
    they want everything and Koran even permits killing Kafir and taking their woman and property..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Zia is a nothing but another Jinnah in the mask..

    worse things are possible though..
    wait until he will revive, ”Hindus and muslims cannot live together…we need another nation..”

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    A man creates his own destiny.

    I come from a region where the population is 1/3 hindu, 1/3 Christian, 1/3 Muslims (actually Hindus may be 40%, Muslims 35%, Christians 25%). Christianity has been there since Christ; Muslims have been there since Prophet (600 years gap separates Christians from Muslims).

    Christians have done wonderful; and are number 1 in the state in ediucation, in running educational instituitions, in wealth, and in all other metrics. They have their churches (3 or 4 denominations, and many occasioanlly fight against each other); but for all practical purposes they are non-distinguishable from the majority, in dress, celebrations (of Onam etc), in snake boat race, in names, etc

    Now, Muslims have not done that well (however, they are much better than muslims in other parts of India); Malappuram district, the first “Muslim” district in India, lags all other districts in Kerala in all metrics – education, womens health, life expectancy, list goes on (it has thrice the fertility rate of state average)

    Even today Muslims complain about discrimination. They have six or seven political parties – Muslim League, PDP, NDF, SDPI…….”Discrimination” is the swan song of all these parties.

    I have never heard a Christian complaining about discrimination. I have never heard AK Antony speak for Christians of the state; or the state finance minister, an eminently capable guy, Dr Thomas Isaac speak for the christians.

    It is time for the people who constantly complain about discrimination to do something about to get out of discrimination .. And ZIa has suggested some ways to get out of the spiral.

    People like Zia should be more honest — yes, there are isolated cases; innocents get punished because of the system problems; but to draw conclusions of culpability is simply unfair. Who discriminated against whom in Pakistan to make the lives of Muslims there miserable? Or in Sudan or Somalia or Yemen or Egypt.? or for that matter in KSA? or Iran?

    India is not problem free; it is not perfect. A group can stand out and cry discrimination, or get involved and make it a “more perfect union”.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims are in perpetual “you discriminate me”” mentality. when in minority

    once they are majority, they are in “kafir’s have no right to live in an islamic statea” and we will define who is a kafir…

    after that.
    we have a right to kidnap infidel’s woman and make her my 4th wife.
    (kafir’s will die out naturally, if ALL their girls/womans are kidnapped)

    [Reply]

  • A.M.FAZIL

    Mr.Zia Haq, you think in the right direction every Muslim should begin to think if we truly long for development-cultural,social and financial. And yes the Gandhian ways are the best to achieve our goal. We’re not the ones who are to be sidelined and we’re not the ones to be branded and we’re as good as anybody on earth. We can sort out all our problems with more refined thinking and for that we need no beer or tea as has been suggested by Mr.Amit Julka .And we’ve to prove that we complain much because we’re denied much and not just for the sake of complaining we complain as Mr.Gopi Thomas says.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Fazil

    All have problems; there is nothing unique for Muslims. So, grow up, and strive and achieve. Just stop whining…

    [Reply]

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    By having stopped whining,what did you achieve? And instead of whining,what method are you using to grow up now?

    [Reply]

    bobby Reply:

    Fazil,
    I would like to repeat some of Amit Julka’s words. To grow up, educate. And make religion private matter, and restrict religion to religious matters only. On other aspects change with time. Any society must change with time to remain alive and dynamic. Flowing water is always fresh,while stagnant water either rots or dries up.

    h mani Reply:

    BOTH JEWS AND ISLAM SUFFERS FROM THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX,THERE SOME HISTORICAL VALIDITY TO THIS IN THE CASE OF JEWS,AS IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN WONDERING AND DRIVEN FROM PILLAR TO POST IN POLAND,SPAIN,RUSSIA AND IN 20TH CENTURY IN NAZI GERMANY,BUT THERE ARE 22 COUNTRIES WHERE ISLAM IS IN 99% MAJORITY AND IN MOST WEST THERE ARE CONSEDERABLE ISLAMIC POPULATION AND IN INDIA THEY SECOND MOST MAJORITY COMMUNITY,YET THEY HAVE BONES TO PICK,GO FIGURE.!!

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    where have you been, man? Actually, I feel bad for Roy, the way she’s been hounded recently.

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    Religion shouldn’t be a private matter, Mr.bobby. It should be personal. You simply urge Muslims along with Amit Julka to grow up and to educate. You can do that since it costs nothing. And Mr.bobby how can you say that Muslims are not alive and dynamic? Are you blind,deaf and dumb? Have you heard of Osama bin Laden, Afsal Gurus, Ajmal Kasabs,and those behind MFB? Aren’t they alive and dynamic? Mr.bobby,it’s not just remaining alive and dynamic that makes a civilized society, but being alive and dynamic in a true,humane and dignified way. And that’s what the Muslims have to achieve and for that, I think,you have to be tolerant. Someone has said somewhere,’Minds differ as river differs’.Though flowing water is fresh, it is susceptible while the water in the well,unless intentionally polluted,remains pure and ever dependable.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Fazil,
    Much as I agree with most things you write, I think equating M-FB with Osama or Kasab is probably not right.
    M-FB is at best a way for Muslims to lodge a protest (albeit badly executed, poorly designed and no strategic thinking) or at worst a cynical attempt to cash in on the recent cartoons controversy to launch a dating site, with possible copyright infringements to boot.
    However, their capacity to do damage is not as much as the purveyors of murder and mayhem like Osama; I doubt Omer Meer is to be found with a Ak-47 anytime soon!
    On your main point, I would like to take the concept of tolerance forward and talk about “self-confidence” and strength.
    A practicing Hindu or Muslim needs to have the confidence that his God can take care of Himself and He expects his followers to take care of their own affairs. When we fight Allah’s battles on this earth, we are betraying our lack of faith.
    I am not a believer; so perhaps easy for me to say this.

    Akash Reply:

    Fazil,
    Stop your fizul ka bakwas. What did you smoke last night, thinking of Kasab and Obl as alive and “dynamic”? Silliness carried to extreme. We need more people like Shoeb.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Akash, boss..
    Fazil laced his post with a heavy dose of irony; I have followed his posts for some time and he is not the sort who is lilely to wear “OBL rocks!” T-shirts

    Akash Reply:

    Fazil,
    In that case, I am sorry man. Reared in the hinterlands, I am the last person to catch subtleties. :)

    Ajaya K Dutt Reply:

    You defined it very correctly. The dynamics of Islam is defined by terrorists and a community mindset that defies evidence and proclaims that there is no evidence to convict their master. Even if they are “convicted”, they shall be out in less time than you can think. It is a mindset that has driven all the Hindus from Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangla Desh. It is a mindset that defies Genetic evidence and fails to convict the culprit who planted false evidence. It is a mindset that prompts Mr. Zia to ask for death, because the probe is not as thorough as he would like to see, but he fails to see how the community and their political patrons went for character assassination for a brave office who died fighting the worst evil any community can breed within.

    We all must endeavor to ensure equal treatment for all, but if I compare India with respect to other countries in the world then India is not perfect but darn close to it. You may find demonstrators in Jantar Mantar supporting “our” brothers in Kashmir (of course Kafir Hindu cannot be a brother, so their rape and murder at the behest of guest fighters is OK), but you cannot find any supporter of Osma Bin Laden in United States of America. And as far Europe is concerned, that is far below US in tolerance; and my friend, I am not talking about tolerance in ANY OF ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.

    However, the objective is to make India the right place. If rest of the world is evil with their tribalistic sectarian mindset, that is no excuse for us. This needs objectivity not just from evil Hindus, who are discriminating against Islamic community, but from Islamic community itself also. Mr. Zia and A. M. Fazil are strangely silent on Hindus plight in any of the Islamic majority areas. Rig Veda says that the line that divides right and wrong is sharp as a razor’s edge. We all Indians must strive to ensure that it is right, not just for one community but for all and in all parts of India. Mr Zia and Fazil should also look at the tolerant aspect of India, in spite of long history for the reason to be suspicious and scornful, from carnage of 1947 to spate of terrorist incidents all along. We all need to work on this; otherwise India would be just as evil as Pakistan, or Bangla Desh or Sri Lanka. Mr Zia and Fazil need to look at the evil as evil is. Not from Islamic or Kefir point of view. Rather the evil is in the concept of branding people as Kafir.

    Kishan Reply:

    Water in the well is also a flowing water. Water has to be continuously drawn from the well and replenished by fresh water, otherwise the well water also starts smelling foul.

    Sam Reply:

    Ajay & others..

    why can’t we accept Jinnah and people like Zia …

    Jinnah left india to go to pakistan (as he is sure that muslims only get discriminated, but they never discriminate in the “Land of the pure”)..

    Can Zia ask all muslims in India to follow Jinnah and leave India ?

    Anil Reply:

    hindu muslim sikh chirstian all have bene wrongly found guilty.. test of a system is to accept the worng when it;s committed.. how conveninetly u have ignored thousand other cases when jihadi brigade were rightly found guilty couple f cases like this can;t negate eveyrthing..

    and know if u don;t like go to pakistan there is no freaking away any mullah is goign to be allowed to break the country again.. this time if someone tries to do that there will be srious seriouos blood

    Sam Reply:

    Dont be scared with threats from Zia..

    if muslims find really discriminated,,

    what is stopping them from
    1. going to pakistan
    2. converting to Hindu, christian …

    that’s is what minorities in pakistan are doing..
    leaving pakistan
    or converting to islam..

    Rahul Reply:

    The unfortunate part is, without wanting to do so, Zia ends up making it worse.
    Reading all the comments, few people have taken it in a positive way. I doubt Zia is writing in a mainstream newspapers blog, wanting to create general angst about his community, so if this was really about making it better, then its not working Zia.

    Consider this, its natural to feel alone when surrounded by others who are different, think of yourself walking alone in ghetto in the US, surrounded by African Americans, you’d feel alone. Who amongst us has not felt comforted with our own community around us, be it a regional community, punjabi’s, bengalis, malyalees.

    @prashanth – this is natural, a bengali will do this, so will a tamilian, immediately make friends with someone from the same community, as an individual you see less differences, easier acceptance, you’d do it, a child will do it, its natural.

    And for those who feel only Muslims feel victimized, and persecuted, I disagree. I think pretty much any minority will feel that, its a self preservation mechanism that any community will attempt, think of all the Indians in Australia and the US who continue to live only in Indian localities and buildings.

    I know christians who feel just as victimised and persecuted, they are pretty much convinced that the majority is out to deny them their rights.

    In very simplistic terms, religion is a support system, it helps you cope/manage during tough times, if you take a lot of help, you are easily manipulated into giving back, any religion. All those who benefit from this racket will manipulate it to their benefit. Its a free ride, for the priests, the pandits, the maulvis, no work, or no real work and its all taken care of. Think of them doing a job, that gives them a living, thats it, they figured this was the best they could do, you thought differently so did something else.

    Religion in todays world is just a tool used by those with little other leverage to manipulate things to their benefit. This is true of all god men, the swami’s the jesuits, each and every one.

    Everyone one of us is better off moving away from religion to a non labled mental state.

    bobby Reply:

    Fazil,
    From alive and dynamic, I meant to be able to change with times, rather than cling to old ways, and to judge right and wrong in todays context, rather than remain mired in centuries old ways.For me Muslims as a society, If I may generalise, are not changing enough with times, that is why they are unable to integrate with mainstream.

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    @Ashish
    If Muslims do it today, Hindus,Christians,Jews,….etc.will do it tomorrow. If this practice is encouraged an another war of a different sort is certain. I think we shouldn’t support MFB.

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    @Sam,
    Great idea, Mr.Sam. Let’s begin the mission. Jinnah is not with us any more and I think Mr.Zia Haq won’t consent to this since he is a true Indian. I think you are the perfect person to lead us to the LAND OF THE PURE since you’re the purest among us all.

    Sam Reply:

    Jinnah’s ghost and spirit is still in India and the countries across the border.

    only muslims can be pure, as pakistan means land of the pure..

    how about getting money from Sauid or indian govt for

    “peaceful transfer of unhappy muslims to pakistan ” ?

    this will be good for everyone..
    even secular muslims can donate and they will better off once the fundoos leave to land of pure..

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    @Sam
    That’s why I prefer you. You have the ability even to sense Jinnah’s spirit. About Jinnah’s Ghost- I say nothing and I leave it to God to deal with ghost possessed minds.

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    @Akash
    Arey,wah! wah! wah!

    Ashish Reply:

    @Fazil,
    I do not support the idea of M-FB (I posted rather long ones in Gautam’s blog).. but, I still prefer it to taking up arms, holding violent protests or something like that.
    Listen, whether or not we support it, it is already dead .. costs a lot to keep a social networking site going (the servers cost money). At least for the time it was there, it gave folks we met on Gautam’s blog (across the border types!) an opportunity to feel good, release their frustration, abuse the usual suspects – Hindus, Americans and Jews and feel happy.
    Jaane bhi do yaar.. hum hain Hindustani

    Bobby Reply:

    @Akash and others

    bobby is not me! I write as Bobby……

  • Ashish

    Who says the Indian state is perfect? For that matter, show me any state which is perfect.

    For the last 2 months, national apathy has been the only response to the blockade in Manipur. I do not see such harsh denunciations of the collective “India” – our polity, the majority among Hindus (The great redeeming feature of this nation is that right-minded people from the majority community who stand up for the rights of the minorities abound. But I am constrained to say, such people are in the minority.).. everyone.

    This saddens me, as it has done for months now, that gratuitous insults, laced with half-truths are routinely hurled in this blog .. now, apartheid. When will Zia stop?

    Our founding fathers did their job; then we sat back, washed out hands off all responsibilties and watched the idea of India go to dust.
    Our idea seems to be to not grow the pie but to create minutely crafted divisions of the existing pie. Systemic safeguards exist in our constitution against abuse or misuse of all kinds; but, we have a creaking legal system that makes it damnably difficult to proceed against anyone, especially if they are rich and powerful.
    Is this only true for the Muslims? Are they discriminated against more than others? Read the heart-rending story on how the status of Dalits in India (specific cases cited in TamilNadu) has not changed (The OPen Magazine).
    Is the discrimination systemic? Is the constitution calling for Muslims to be accorded second-class status?
    The Indian constitution affords us the safeguards and the opportunities. Yes, inspite of the story, I am still hopeful: because this system still produces Ambedkar, Jagjivan Ram (fellow-alumnus of a glorious university that in its time made him stand outside the classroom and attend lectures), KR Narayanan, Narendra Jadhav, Mashelkar …
    Social engineering is not achieved in a year or even in one generation. My grandmother would not have allowed a Christian or a Muslim to even enter our home; little did she guess how her grandchildren would turn out :-)

    When I grew up, in a city with a large Muslim population but no communal riot since the Independence, the Muslim identity was not flaunted, I had Muslim friends who would drop in a for a drink or go out to the Chinatown eateries together. Today, alas, we are drawing well-entrenched frontiers, it is “us” vs “them” and eating together has become so complex that we frequently cook vegetarian food to get over this “halal” business, when my Muslim friends come home.
    I see signs around me everywhere; rise in Burqas, increasingly larger number of prayer-goers. I see a stream of Muslims going past my office to attend prayers every day.. and I wonder; this is an industrial area that I work in and for those people going to pray, their employers are enduring lost productivity for an hour. If I am an employer, I would wonder. And then, you will call this prejudice.
    The ordinary Muslim has very ordinary concerns: he wants to live well, bring up kids like his Hindu or Christian counterparts. But, I have seen increasingly ghetto-ization in the way they talk, Allah is invoked in every thing and participation in each others’ lives is diminishing.
    When we as students in college performed Saraswati Puja, our cultural secretary was one Badr-ud-Doza from Bangladesh. It did not seem odd to us then, it was not certainly odd to him. If anything, he was more clued on to the rituals than at least I was.
    Such folks are sadly fewer in number.
    It is fashionable to tout “beef-eating” as the mark of a progressive (a la Mani Aiyer) but, do we dare ask a Muslim to eat pork to prove his secular credentials?

    [Reply]

  • http://hindustantimes shan

    Zia, two things you should do. Buy or borrow a book called INDIA AFTER GANDHI by Ramchandra Guha. It will wake you from your slumber. You will realise the amount of problem and the trial and tribulation of an INFANT REPUBLIC.The other is buy a book on BASIC ECONOMICS. The abc of economics is LAND AND PEOPLE RATIO. India is one third the size of america with nearly FIVE TIMES THE POPULATION. UK is twice the size of west bengal population six crore, west bengal eight crore. Sweden twice the size of UK , population ninety lakhs, austria sixty lakhs. This will also answer AShish’s exasperation with our legal system. Now coming to VICTIMHOOD SYNDROME. How about compensating for all the hindus that died in the mumbai train explosions. You are taking a dangerous course. YOU DONT NEED TO BOTHER ABOUT MUSLIMS , THE TESTA SETALVADS , ARUNA ROY’S will take care of them. Rather than try to inspire muslims to get the best out of them , you are by your callous remarks , hardening the hindu prejudice(you have to remember , thanks to our psychopathic neighbour, indians are constantly have to contend with the menace of islamic terrorism , and presence of SIMI doesn’t help)and also instilling in muslims sense of alienation. This is exactly what zinnah did succesfully, that is why during QUIT INDIA movement when all hindu shops were closed to protest at arrest of the congress leaders , all the muslim shops were asked to remain showing allegiance to the british. This act hardened the hindu attituide which jinnah wanted whole heartedly , and we all now suffer the consequence of that dangerous game.(Source, Liberty or death , by patrick french , hodder and stroughton)

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    I agree with Shan that Zia should inspire Muslims instead of bitching and whining; let the whining be done by our secularists.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    May your tribe increase, Shoeb!
    :)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Jinnah was not jailed even for a SINGLE day..

    Jinnah was in bed with British.
    (i am sure he is a british agent to create strife in subcontinent and delay indian independance)..

    while Gandhi, Nehru were jailed for more than 12-15 years..

    [Reply]

  • nationalist

    In India, every section of the society that is economically weak is exploited, not just Muslims (who because of their regressive outlook to life – population control, ghetto mentality, madrassas, women’s rights, etc are backward).
    What about the bollywood khans, our former muslim Presidents, muslim cricketers (including captains), etc who have made it big in a 80% hindu country ?
    What about minorities in Muslim countries?
    Stop making this a ‘muslim’ issue – every developing nation has exploitation of the weak. All muslims who hate India, should be thrown out.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Raju Kurien
    Accepted and agreed.
    Shan does not know what a caste Hindu means; Vivekananda was a Kayastha and thus 100% on this side of the caste divide. Brahmin- non-Brahmin divide is too simplistic – but, I have stopped expecting Shan to write any sense about anything.
    And, Brahmins were raw sewage of hell.. indeed. So, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, to whom all Bengalis owe their initiation into the Bengali language, Ashutosh Mukerjee, (I dare not mention Tagore here, because Shan will trip me on the technical point that he was a Brahmo and so, out of the caste system), Sarat Chatterjee were all Brahmins.. as was Bankim Chatterjee, Saradindu Mukherjee and the present generation of literary elite: Sunil, Shirshendu… Incidentally, Ramakrishna Paramahansa- the guru of Vivekananda, was a brahmin too.
    My aim is not to wave the flag of Brahmin triumphalism. Most prominent Bengalis starting from Rammohan Roy down to Satyajit Ray have been either Brahmin or Kayasthas. I am astounded to be told what my heritage is worth; I guess if I accept Shan as a product of that heritage, I have to accept that it spawned some seriously flawed strains.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, before starting breast beating, there is a difference between bramhin and brahminism, syed , mirza, shoebk, have all muslim surname, but they do not represent Islamism(that is jihad, obscurantism and the lot. I have commented because of the line “in hinduism men and women are equal religiously” , a canard. All you have done is dropped names. Tagore as much a great poet he was he made sure all his daughter got married to bramhins(all the marriages were pretty disaster), flick a few pages of Nirad choudhuri. Nirad choudhuri has gone so far to describe Vidyasagar , not a bengalee at all in his morals taste , behaviour . Indeed you cannot find sense when I point the oppression to dalits, devdasi, KULIN(an exclusive bramhanican tyranny). Bankim chatterjee as much a towering literary figure he was , reflect on why muslims are offended singing Vande Mataram. It has nothing to do with competing for obeisance. It is because of a line in same novel ananda math, where it says EKTA HINDU PANCHTA NERER SOMAN. For non bengali readers roughly translated says one hindu is equal to five NERE ( a derogatory term meaning muslims , like the word nigger). He did change in subsequent edition and substituted gora for vnere. Incerdible this guy quotes Shirsendu, he is an epitome of bramhinnical conservatism, all the heroes in his novels and the one with all virtues are all BRAMHINS. Satyajit Ray was aethist/agnostic, to call him bramhin is calling bin laden a gandhian . He was a truly RENAISSANCE MAN. , morever they were BRAMHOS. Ashutosh mukherjee’s son and guesses who that can be , he is the one that will keep syed , shoebk , and mirza and their family awake all night in fear and trepidtion , FOR HE IS THE CREATER OF HINDU MAHASABAH , THE GODFATHER OF BJP.i AM PROUD OF THAT TRUE PROUD FEARSOME BENGALI SPIRIT THAT DIDN’T BLINK ITS EYELID WHEN SIXTEEN YEAR KHUDIRAM(NON BRAMHIN) WENT TO GALLOWS. OR MASTERDA, AND THAT OUTRAGEOUS FEAT OF LOOTING THE CHITTAGONG MILITARY ARSENAL OF ITS WEAPON. THEN AGAIN BEING A BIOLOGY STUDENT I AM AWARE THERE CAN BE MUTANT PROGENY WHO SPINE IS RATHER UNDERDEVOLOPED , WHO ARE WIMPISH , SO LACK IN CERTAIN MENTAL CLARITY.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    So, what is the point?
    Kshudiram Bose was a Kayastha; a definite upper caste. So was Surya Sen (Masterda).
    Agreed, there is a difference between brahmins and brahminism; a distinction that seems to have escaped you in your indulgence in verbal diarrhea.
    Tagore got his daughters married off to brahmins; again, what is the point? That makes him a product of “sewage of hell”?
    Nirad Chaudhuri; now, can you enlighten me about his caste? Don’t tell me he was a Brit, so above it all.
    Name 1 towering literary or cultural figure from Bengal in the last 150 years (non-Muslim) who was not a upper caste (brahmin/ kayastha) and I can name 100 more illustrious figures from that period who were brahmins/ kayasthas.
    There is a historical reason for it; the Bengal rennaissance starting with Rammohan, and then onto the Young Bengal period onto Vidyasagar (Bankim is an interesting sideshow), Sarat (read him, the original women’s libber), Tagore, Kallol group, post-Kallol group.. they have stayed limited to a certain strata of society. The Bengali Zamindars were all upper caste and preferred spending time in Calcutta neglecting their land, and created their own ghetto of decadence. Therein lies the tragedy of Bengal.
    So, anyone who meets with your approval like Vidyasagar or Nirad Chaudhuri is not really a Bengali (not a Brahmin/ upper caste as well???).
    Bengal has not had many commercial success stories, alas. The Sarkars of Ananda Bazar group are Kayasthas. The Chatterjee of Haldia fame is a brahmin.
    Here’s a short note on Sir Ashutosh: (cut and paste from Wikipedia)
    “Sir Ashutosh Mookerjee, CIE (Bengali: আশুতোষ মুখোপাধ্যায়) 1864-1924 was an Indian educator and Vice Chancellor of the University of Calcutta from 1906 to 1924. He was responsible for the foundation of the Bengal Technical Institute in 1906 and the Calcutta University College of Science in 1914. The Calcutta Mathematical Society was also founded by Sir Ashutosh Mookerjee in 1908 and he served as the founder president of the Society during 1908 to 1923.[1][2]
    Contribution to education

    Ashutosh Mookerjee had a vision of the kind of education he wanted young people to have, and he had the acumen and courage to extract it from his colonial masters. He set up several new academic graduate programmes: comparative literature, anthropology, applied psychology, industrial chemistry, ancient Indian history and culture and Islamic culture. He also made arrangements for postgraduate teaching and research in Bengali, Hindi, Pali and Sanskrit. The diverse range of subjects offered by Calcutta University is largely a result of his labour. Scholars from all over India, irrespective of race, caste, and gender, came to study and teach there. He even persuaded European scholars to teach at his university. He was one of the first persons to recognize the worth of Srinivasa Ramanujan.
    Lord Curzon’s education mission in 1902 identified the universities, and Calcutta University especially, as centres of sedition where young people formed networks of resistance to colonial domination.[3] The cause of this was thought to be the unwise granting of autonomy to these universities in the nineteenth century. Thus in the period 1905 to 1935 the colonial administration tried to reinstate government control of education. In 1923, when Lord Lytton tried to impose conditions on his reappointment as Vice Chancellor, Mookerji indignantly refused the post. For his intransigence and academic integrity he was known as the Tiger of Bengal.”
    That such a man has to be summarily dismissed as a sewage from hell shows me the state of education in West Bengal; yeah, blame it on the Marxists and shudder, Mamata is coming to rescue us all.
    Finally, if Sir Ashutosh has to answer for his son, then your parents have a lot to answer for.

    shan Reply:

    I can understand your acute sensitivity in this matter , perhaps the “sewage” is more closer to home. Meghnad Saha was not a brahmin thus not worthy of your attention , so was mahendra lal sircar , whose pathbreaking contribution completely eluded you.Now there is a guy in England , who went to Ghana (the gateway to slave trade) to chain himself to the tree, for the penance. Now five generation ago his forefathers made fortune out of slave trade , so according to your ranting (which has uncanny similarity with the ones in brigade parade ground) , he should have nothing to answer for. Yet he did it , BECAUSE HE IS A PROTESTANT (read Max Weber’s Protestant Ethics). No germans will say My family was not individually involved in holocaust, they will say we collectively as a nation has to take the responsibilty to what happened , ANOTHER PROTESTANT COUNTRY.Infact just to warn you if in germany or austria dont use your stupid logic and try to suck up to the germans by saying holocaust wasn’t that bad as it is portrayed. YOU WILL END UP IN JAIL.(wouldn’t be a bad idea given your state of mind throwing invectives ). WEAK BLAME OTHERS , WISE LOOK INTO THE MIRROR, perhaps i need to send you the book BHULI NAI , by sailesh Dey , which showed all the traitors and MOLES who supplied information leading to arrest and hanging of freedom fighters WERE ALL BRAMHINS, starting with maharaj nanda kumar who was hanged by british FOR DOUBLE CROSSING THEM.

    Ashish Reply:

    I keep saying Brahmin and Kayastha.. all upper castes. Saha is an odd man out- neither a brahmin nor a Kayastha. Do you even read?
    This is the same in Tamil Nadu too; all the Nobel Laureates are brahmins. Sarkar is a Kayastha. Very upper caste. I have not even got started with Subhash Bose, CR Das (oh sorry, bad example- he has to answer for his grandchild- SS Ray now)
    Caste is something you are born into. Historically, upper castes have had better access to wealth and education and some of them have used it for betterment of humanity at large. Why is it so difficult to understand that?
    My point is not that Brahmins have not committed atrocities. Socially dominant classes always have, everywhere. However, now Mamata, a brahmin is fighting to wrest the West Bengal kursi from Buddhadev – another brahmin who was preceeded by a Kayastha (Jyoti Basu).
    Your ability to jump from topic to topic and liberally quote from book-jackets is commendable. We have Max Weber, Holocaust denial, Ghana, Nandakumar – I guess 33 years of left front education has done this.
    I had a teacher in a school in Calcutta (Before the left front came to power) and he wrote this on the margin of the copy of a student like you (who had embellished his essay liberally with quotes from here and there)- “Shob- i bujhilaam, kintu, tumi ki bujhile?” loosely translated- “okay, so, understood. But, did you understand?”

    Amit Reply:

    Ashish and Shan,
    I can’t believe that a debate about Zia’s comments has turned into a full scale turf war between caste groups in Bengal. Ashish, while your enumeration of the contributions by various upper castes is appreciated, I think you should not lose sight that these personalities form a minuscule percentage of the upper castes. Overall, the atrocities, including denying the bulk of Hindu population the right to learn and educate by these same upper castes, especially brahmins, is beyond all civilized norms. If only 5% of the population gets all the facilities for the best education, it’s only natural that most intellectuals would come from that section. That is actually something to be really ashamed about. Worse still, even Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs in India are practicing some sort of caste system. The sooner we get rid of this system, the better it is.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Amit, as they say in England, “well done my son”

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Didnt Kasab and co commit the heinous murders? Was it not organized and controlled by the ISI/Muslim thugs (yes, I would call them Muslim thugs, just not thugs) from Pakistan?

    The statement that Brahmins controled politics or made a career move to Politics is just nonsense. Again it may be regional or state by state. Mayawati, Karunanidhi, Laloo, YSR, Achuthanandan, Yeduri, Modi, —— Brahmins?

    Who is clamoring to include caste in census?

    Ashish Reply:

    Amit,
    Firstly, yes. This discussion is way out of topic. And, on my part, I do apologise for inflicting my part of the diatribe on the readers.
    But, I never supported the caste system; all I am stating is that in Bengal, most prominent personalities have been historically from the upper castes (Brahmins or Kayasthas). This is undeniable reality. My aim is not to justify or even find reasons; except to state that upper castes have had more privileges and money and access to education. To state reality is not the same as waving a flag supporting a social practice. I again quote:
    Caste is something you are born into. Historically, upper castes have had better access to wealth and education and some of them have used it for betterment of humanity at large. Why is it so difficult to understand that?
    My point is not that Brahmins have not committed atrocities. Socially dominant classes always have, everywhere. However, now Mamata, a brahmin is fighting to wrest the West Bengal kursi from Buddhadev – another brahmin who was preceeded by a Kayastha (Jyoti Basu).

    You must understand that this is a real paradox; in Bengal, where we say the so called social reforms started ahead of everywhere else, the emancipation seems to have stayed limited to the upper classes/ castes. I can’t explain this.
    It is incorrect to presume that there is systematic victimization or alienation of lower castes going on; in my view, and that can be contested, surely, caste consciousness of an average Bengali is comparaively low: I have studied (graduation) in the Hindi heartlands and frankly, that was when I first understood what caste is; I was shaken enough to read MN Srinivas during post grad; just to understand WTF.
    The CPM, Congress, Trinamool.. all are led by upper castes. To state that is to recognise reality. To explore the reasons, frankly speaking, will need folks with training in social sciences.
    Irresponsible statements such as “Brahmins are sewage from hell” must be opposed. And, yes get rid of the caste system; but, how? The more we try, the more entrenched it seems to be, at least where I live now; in the heart of the nation’s capital where we are witnessing one honour killing per day.

    shan Reply:

    What a humbug, and what a breathtakiing arrogance. “emancipation seems to have stayed limited to the upper classes/caste”, an utter oxymoron, you don’t need to be emancipated if you are upper caste. There is chapter in europeanhistory books about jewish emancipation , no need nor their is any talk of christian emancipation. The preponderance of bramhins in political parties is because they essentially made CAREER MOVE. Previously they got the rest of the hindu folks(cant use the word brethren , for these SEWAGE MIND , DIDN’T THINK THAT WAY) to follow their strictures. As there is difficulty in doing that after india becomes republic, so the next best thing to the old power IS POLITICS. There may not be caste based gangland style warfare in west bengal , because their is party political warfare, but caste is alive and kicking well. JUST READ THE MATRIMONIAL COLUMN OF ANY BEMGALI NEWSPAPER, CASTE IS ONE OF THE PRIME CRITERIA.”staements like bramhins are RAW sewage from hell , must be opposed” HOW ABOUT OPPOSING the statement” Kasab and co carried out the heinous murders”. Looks like the sewage is spilling out of its “state enforced” cofines .

    Ashish Reply:

    Gopi,
    in Bengal, for whatever reason, the upper castes- Brahmin/ Kayasthas are in control of all political parties. Just do a small research – both in the party as well as government, that is true.
    Buddhadev is a brahmin, his FM is a Dasgupta – not sure, may be a banik (bania in rest of India),.. Mamata and her deputies are all upper castes (Mamata hereself is brahmin, so is Partha Chatterjee, Subrata Mukherjee.. Kayasthas are Somen Mitra etc..)
    All the leading poets or literary figures are upper castes. Well, most that I know- I am a little out of touch with Bengali literature. The only prominent artiste that I can remember, real talent who was not upper caste was Ramkinkar Baij. I have to ask others about Paresh Maity’s caste; again, not an expert on this.
    It is a huge paradox and I can’t explain this why a state in which the reformist movements were underway ahead of rest of India, has ceded political power in the hands of upper castes and as I have been saying, in the cultural sphere too.
    That is why I keep saying that the social reforms have worked only on the creamy layer- the upper castes and upper classes. Start with Rammohan Roy, go through the list of the Young Bengal group – not sure what Radhanath Sikdar was, but rest of them were all brahmins or Kayasthas. Moving on to Bankim, Vidysagar, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Sarat, Aurobindo, Tagore, Premen, Buddhadeb Bose… one unbroken line of Brahmins or Kayasthas.
    Now, what is to be done? Should Mamata sack her entire kitchen cabinet and herself be consigned to dustbin of history? Should the CPM politbureau resign? Should Pranab Da take sanyas? I say yes to all of them :-) but, what about those stupid voters of Bengal?

    Should Aprana Sen stop making films? Or Sunil stop writing?

    Should we stop reading Tagore? Or Sarat Chandra?
    The examples from the rest of India do not work in Bengal. There is no equivalent political figure from the subaltern castes. However, I can safely say that I would be stunned if The Open Magazine had written a story on the current state of Dalits in India and substantiated it with examples from Bengal. The examples quoted in the article were all from Tamil Nadu, where a supposedly Godless, anti-brahmin party has been in power for so long.
    My theory is that the Bengal elite has found a way to consolidate their hold on real power and keep the aspirations of the lower castes at bay. To say this is not to support this, but to
    simply state a fact.

    shan Reply:

    Ram kinkar baij was marathi, so I do not know his caste,It is what you beleive in and what you articulate that defines you, aparna sen had her daughter’s wedding solemnised by a women and a “lower caste ” by letting her perform the marriage rites and rituals, as a protest against the hegemony of bramhins, a quick viewing by any body with average intelligence , her film SATI , starring SHABANA AZMI , will make it amply clear that her condecension is directed at bramhins only.The same with Rituparna Ghosh ’s film starring Jackie shroff, only difference is the vicious attack by the “bramhin” surname film critics in bengal. The same reactionary argument by the “ancien regime”
    when Satyajit Ray’s film SADGATI starring mohan agase, om puri smita patil. One “twice born” journalist goaded Ray and said you are portaying as if brahmins are evil . What could Ray do , he just mumbled looks like you are Shatwick(very religious,?loose translation) bramhin.

    ramesh Reply:

    Many muslim intelectuals,thinkers live away from their traditional muslim societies,in the west they have more freedom to think, reason [ijtehad] to form new expressions of faith without fear.their traditional society back home is rigid and frozen in time and would not allow any positive ijtihad or rethinking.these thinkers can if supported revitalize the faith and in time change the mindsets

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    Brahman is knowledge… as u know the system corrupted thru birthrights. Tgore has enchanted mllions thru his writings. One day I should discuss the “little lamp, big lamp” episode in Tagore’s life that Osho wrote in his “India, My beloved”.
    Aravinda has attracted many to his teachings. That he and his disciples built a nice place like Pondicheery pays back any sins he may ahve committed as a Brahmin.
    I have read Bibhuthi Bhushan, Tara Sankar and provided me bliss from these mundane stuff. All thes Brahmins have enriched my life. So, also Thyagaraja, Semmangudi, RK Narayan,……the list goes on

    Politicians there — I do not know — I do not think Mamamta, Budhdev etc are financially corrupt.. and I do not doubt that Jyoti Basu wanted all to have agood life (although he chose the wrong method for that)

    Wouldnt there have been Tagores from lower strata if the lower strata had all the privileges of a Tagore. May be. May not be. why is Saudi arabia, being one of the richest, not producing any artists or writers?

    Let creative Brahmins continue to write, sing, invent, ..we all benefit.. And let us make sure we have suystems and policies to make anybody who wants to eb a Brahmin, a Brahman.

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas. sorry to dissapoint you Arobindo is not bramhin , he is ghosh, his father made it a guiding mission of his life to make him “pukka” sahib. Bengali was forbidden at home only english , sent to Cambridge where he was a wrangler tripos.What a irony.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shan

    No, I am not disappointed. To me Aurobindo exemplifies the true Brahman

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, are you out of your mind , you seem to have lost the marbles. Just reflect on what you have written “Wouldn’t there have been tagores from lower strata if the lower strata had all the privileges of tagore ,AND NOW THE BLOG READERS : may be MAY NOT BE.I cant remember coming across any more crusty old reactionary . In defence of your statement you invoke saudi arabia, god (er, somebody)help india . It reminds me of the film MISSISIPI BURNING, the white supremacist boys after mauling down a black fellow under a car shouts at him what can I do if god has created you inferior.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shan — I meant “would there have been”..

    And my use of Saudi Arabia did not have any religious implication; just that being born into privilege necessarily does not tarnsalte into creativity, arts, leadershipe tc.. Or Malaysia.. (I am making a wild be here, that if there are good writers and innovative business leaders there, most probaly a good percentage will be from ethic Indians (Tamils mostly) and Chinese and only a small percentage of them local Muslims.

    “Tambram”s are supposed to be bad and controlling blah blah; how come there was only one Barhmin chief minister (jaylalitha) in Tamil Nadu in the last sixty years. Sixty years is a long period!

    I am not supporting caste system; I am against any system that gives preference to any groups based on birth right and not on capabilities. I also believe state should expend energy on developing all human resources .

    Present day Germans should not be blamed for the Jewish holocaust (why do Jews have a disproportionate number of scientists and engineers and musicians and actors and comedians…even after holocaust…); present day Barhmoins should not be blamed for what their grand and great garnd parents may have done; so also present day Muslims should not be blamed for the razing of Somnath temple by Gazni and other brutal, barbaric Muslim invaders.

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, so exactly what are you saying, born into privilage doesn’t translate , born into DISCRIMINATION definitely smothers all chance of being creative. As much you are mesmerised by the bramhins, you seem to completely forget that they has SYSTEMATICALLY SHUT OTHER CASTES FROM ANYTHING TO DO WITH INTELLECTUAL ACTIVITY. The whole idea of the caste system is to keep people fossilised in their manual and menial jobs. That one never come across a brilliant businessman who create wealth in bramhins is not considered as poor acheiver in your parlance.Meghnad saha was one of the great astrophysicist of the world, he was also fellow of the royal society, which is next to nobel prize. While he was a student he had to wait till the bramhins had their fill , because bramhins would not sit together to have lunch/supper in the hostel. If this was the scenario , how attracted or inspired can you expect the lower caste people to be to take up university education. You seem to forget APJ kalam ’s contribution is probably more in terms of sophistication and utility than tagores. The jews did so well is not because TORAH predicts they are choosen people , but they were PERPETUAL REFUGEE. Refugees everywhere strive to succeed, just like the asians (indians, japanese, vietnamese , chinese) are doing both in UK and USA.Now you will site the case of muslims, they would have done if they were FREED from the religious tyranny. And jewish success story is pretty recent , you woudn’t find any jewish character worth talking about during the time of william shakespeare, because they were barred from everything (farming , art etc), that is why they resorted to USURY. The jewish story reinforces my argument that if given the right opportunity and the social structure any group can succeed, this happened after the famous jewish emancipation , brought about by the humanism of renaissance.We do not blame bramhin, but bramhinism , and as I said earlier YOU DEFINE YOURSELF WITH YOUR BELEIFS ARE AND WHAT YOU ARTICULATE.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Shan
    may be I am losing my marbles — Let me clarify once more:

    - Present Muslism (Brahmins, Germans, whites) should not be blamed for atrocities committed by their ancestors three-four generations before

    - Society and government should expend energy to bring the historically disadvantaged to an environment of opportunities; however, it cannot ebe an either/or; it has to accommodate both. We cannot reject s student who got 90% marks to accommodate a student who got only 50% marks; either we start more colleges so the 50% student can be admitted, or have devlopmental programs early on so the 50% guy could potentially obtain t 90% thru earlier dedicated focus.

    - I do not know whether a level playing ground can ever be implemented in any society. Such is the nature of human beings. It is a law of normal distribution that there will always be smart people, not so smart people, rich people, murderers, leaders. People will always find a room to game the system. Call it class, color, caste, natioanlity, language, religion, philosophy. The total unprofessional performance of the French team in the world Cup is causing a racial tension in France. Sara Palin campaigned in the last US presidential elections saying hinderland America is where real Americans (and patriots) live.

    - Let us not take away peoples accomplishments; let us make all accomplish

  • D Mishra, UK

    Zia, my dear friend and fellow Indian brother, why so negative and pessimistic? I was going to formulate a response but Amit Julka and Gopi Thomas put it so beautifully that I can simply ask readers (and I daresay you) to read their contributions.
    But, some parts of your blog are brilliant and I liked the Gandhian bit. Isnt it sad that while most cultures, religions and nationalities have examples of pacifists (Gandhi, Mandela, M L King, Jimmy Carter, etc) their is a paucity of muslim pacifists. Frontier Gandhi- Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan comes to mind, and what a splendid exception he was. So, heres to the muslim community turning to Gandhi in a big way- what a splendid idea!! Bravo.
    On that hopeful note, Dr Dev Misra, from AIIMS and UK

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    this does not surprise anyone..

    most peaceful acting muslims are just acting.

    they can only act for a short time…

    eventually they have to stop ACTING, before everyone discovers their true self..

    [Reply]

  • Adi

    Dear Mr Zia,
    A nicely written sentimental article! Bu did you think why have you reached this stage? Where did this style of bombing religious and crowded places start? Where did this quote “Dignity or else death, emancipation or else revolution, fair deal or disintegration” come into your mind when we have already been disintegrated in 1947 on the same basis !! Each time people like you shake up the mind of everyone rather than teaching the people of own community to start studies, control the population, contribute in national development and be the front runner in legal businesses (and not like Dawood/Tiger Memon/ Chhota Shakeel/ Abu Salem and so on…). You know why St. Stephens and Bishop Cotton are the elite institutions? Because they don’t have the traditions of Madarsas, where you don’t impart education but made religious hardliners. How many hindus or christians do you admit or allow to study in your madarsas? How many times have you heard of christians supporting australia in a cricket match against India in India? I will show you a million of Muslims doing so just outside the Madarsas , also awaiting a Six by Shahid Bhai. You want everything right in this country for Minorities (only Muslims here) but hold not responsibility for generating respect amongst the same Minority for this country. Don’t blame others for your own wrong doings, people are not idiots and won’t blame a complete community for nothing. Do a bit of introspection for your own community and you’ll get all your answers. Learn from Parsis and Christians. Stop praising Shahid Bhai and bet for Tendulkar. Your life will change.

    [Reply]

    Jacob Reply:

    Well said! Muslims should learn from the true minorities, like Christians and Parsis, how to develop and progress forwards. Their population is one-tenth of the Muslims, but they don’t sit and whine about alleged ‘discrimination and persecution’ while supporting the mujahideen and the smuggler ‘bhais’ and undermining the security of the very nation they reside in. And this double talk of Muslims is not limited to India. Europe and the US are also witnessing these special traits of these traitors. Almost every single Muslim I know here in Kerala, some of them well-educated also, openly support Pak in the cricket matches. When someone objects, they ask them not to equate affinities in sports with nationalist sentiments. Pray why not? This traitorous freedom is allowed only in India and chiefly because the Hindu majority here is exceptionally tolerant by and large. I am saying this despite some recent incidences of right-wing Hindutva vandalism against our missionaries, because these incidences are still relatively rare in India, in contrast to the Christian and non-Muslim persecution in Muslim countries. Which **** Muslim will allow a Pakistani Hindu or a Christian to support India in the same cricket match? Muslims have been taught double standards from birth itself. They want all dignity, equality and even preferential treatment for being a ‘minority’, while they will not give an iota of respect to any other community and kill them in the name of Quran! Their daily prayer (5 times a day) calls Judaism and Christianity misled and false religions. Quran calls for the blood of idolaters. How can you treat others with such overt contempt and demand unquestioning respect from them at the same time? Almost all of Muslims are either terrorist sympathizers or terrorists themselves. And then they never admit their faults and always churn out outlandish and ridiculous conspiracy theories and big lies and rumours to support terrorism. It’s high time they realize that clinging to medieval philosophies and lifestyle can never bring prosperity and peace in their lives. By doing precisely that, they have themselves blocked the path of their progress. Then they pick out scapegoats for their backwardness- America, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Sikhs- it could be anyone- and declare Jihad against them! Pathetic mindset. Come out of your dreamworld, Zia and start working for the development of your community.

    [Reply]

  • Ahmer

    Education and awareness! I cannot stress AWARENESS ENOUGH!! Do you know that in Delhi’s Batla House, many educated people (Muslims in this case) working in fancy MNCs in Gurgaon, Noida and Delhi are refusing to participate in the ongoing census and throwing the officials out. They fear the census and are unsure about its motives.

    Regardless of my concerns regarding the rational behind the census… I still participated in it when the officers came to my door. Its a national exercise… its an inclusive act. One cannot stand on the outside and keep complaining. Its about representation. Muslims cannot own up to their rights and responsibilities if they keep pushing themselves into a corner and seclude themselves in ghettos.

    Maybe you could influence opinion on that in some manner?

    And I totally agree about a wealthy Muslim being more resilient to prejudice.

    [Reply]

    jasper Reply:

    It ain’t that bad. You have to understand that muslim issue is not the only one india faces. it is the only one that gets more attention. naxals are hindus and a real threat to india. people get slaughtered all over india and many are hindus. ironically india and pakistan are united because of the hatred for each other. if india didn’t exist, pakistan would disintegrate in days and same is true vice versa.
    i think poverty is the single biggest issue here. given everybody a fair chance to progress and there will be peace. but that is not going to happen at least in this century – so we are condemned to see more and more chaos around us and religion is the best excuse towards that. as for muslims in india…you have too admit it…they have not been able to forge a common political front to push for their development. until that happens…good luck with dignity.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ahmer

    Absolutely. I will also add Confidence to the list. Every day we hear about a child fighting against all odds and doing well in schools, colleges.

    I also believe that by throwing all Muslims together as disadvantaged, and discriminated, Muslims are doing injustiice to their fellow Muslims. Muslims in South Indian states in general are doing very well compared to Muslims in north Indian states like UP and Bihar (where the bulk of Muslims are). But then, are Hindus or otehr sects doing well in UP and Bihar? Those two states are at the bottom in terms of any development. Muslims in Kerala and Tamil Nadu are close to the state averages on many metrics; however, education, awaremness, confidence etc are keys to sustain the progress.

    Muslims may want to pick up the systems and organizations that have worked well in South India and adapt those to Bihar, Up etc. For example, MES has developed some excellent educational instituitions (with well respected teachers drawn from a wide section of the society, not just Muslims), amy be they should implement educational instituitions in UP/Bihar.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Hey Gopi,
    Things are changing in Bihar now. C’mon man. Give us a thumbs up! We had enough of Thackerays. :)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Maybe they will only answer census questions to islamic country only.
    (as they do not trust secular govt)..

    or the other alternative..
    convert to chrstianity or any other religion who does not have major problems in india ?

    how about converting to hindu, to avoid discrimination !!!

    [Reply]

  • Vinay Dey

    Zia Saheb- In some respect you are right. There is problem and it is us to solve it. Do not look from outside but work from inside. Have you ever compared India with other Muslim countries and tell me , would you like to move to other country? Indian machinery needs overhauling.It is saying der aye durust aye.1984 Sikhs riot got judgement after 22 years. Hopefully Gujarat riot will see justice and culprits will be punished.During Mumbai 26/11 did any body asked before killing whether you are a muslim or Hindu or Christian.Stay away from your religion. Those clerics pass fatwa left or right,or ask
    followers to commit sucide in the name of religion. Have you noticed most of the terrorist in other countries also are Muslims and mostly from Pakistan. How many bomb blast in Pakistan where sucide bomber are in Burqa.All of a sudden you start keeping beared or hijab or burqua. It seems an identity crisis. I am from Lucknow and brought up in Muslim neighbourhood where apa , mummyjan are my apa and Bhaijaan or mummy. I never thought that I am hindu and they are muslims. We had leaders like Rafi Ahmed Kidwai, Maulana Azad who fought for India and were against division. They are not token but pillar of India.Yes Muslims have to get education. The new act , National education Act does not differentiate agains any one and it says education to every one.33% women in parliament and assembly. So changes coming but slowly.
    Cheer up
    Vinay Dey

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    I DO NOT EVER UNDERSTAND THE PSYCHLOGY OF MUSLIMS EVEN THOUGH I WAS RAISED IN THE BASTION OF ISLAM,IF IN MAJORITY,THEY DRIVE OUT ALL MINORITY,ALHA PAKISTAN,IF IN MINORITY CRY FROM ROOF TOP DISCRIMINATION.NO SOCIETY HAS FOUND ALL THE ANSWER TO RACEISM,DISCRIMINATION AND BIGTORY,IT IS ALWYS WORK IN PROGRESS,I THINK MOST MUSLIM CRY FAUL DO GET ADVANTAGE AND RAISE THE BOGGEYMAN TO TO ULTIMATELY CURVE OUT A SEPERATE NATION OR WORK HArd to cause disintegration of majority,it is never ending assult on majority society untill they are weakened by real and imagined guilt imposed on them,people zia know what they are doing or saying,in this they are added by pseudo secularist like arundithi and satalvad,who are self loathing,communist agenda or both,in this many majority community unwithigly become pawn,only in u.s. their game does not work,u.s. say’YOU DON’T LIKE IT,FEEL FREE TO LEAVE TO SAUDI ARBIA OR PAKISTAN,I DO NOT SEE PEOPLE LINING UP AT JFK OR NEWARK AIRPORT,IT IS ONLY LINE IN JIDHA AND ISLAMABAD ONE WAY TICKET TO NYC.BUT INDIAND DO NOT HAVE B—S SO PEOPLE LIKE ZIA ADD FUEL TO FIRE BY TAKING SOME ISSOLATED CASE TO BEAT INDIA AND TARNISH ALL MAJORITY AS RACIST EVEN THOUGH NAME ME ONE PROMINENT HINDU IN PAKISTAN,ASK HIM THAT.HE WILL HAVE NO ANSWER AS THERE IS NONE.I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WORLD FREE OF ALL EVIL,BUT WE HAVE TO LIVE IN REAL WORLD AND COMPLAIN LESS AND RECOGNISE ALL SOCIETY IS WORK IN PROGRESS,LOVE IT OR LEVE IT”CASE CLOSED

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    WHEN LEAVING DO NOT LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON YOUR A–.SIF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE SAY THIS WAY,PEOPLE LIKE ZIA WILL SHUT UP OR IT WILL BE MORE OF THE SAME,OR APPESE THEM.CHIOCE IS YOURS.THEY WILL NEVER SAY THAT THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER,THAT’S FOR SURE,I HAVE SEEN IT ONCE TO OFTEN,IT IS A STANDARD PRACTICE,I HAVE READ THE STATE DEPT OF U.S. SAYING THIS IN BRIEFING TO U.S. PRESIDENT AND SO THIS TACTICE DOES NOT WORK IN U.S.A.,IT WORKS IN MOST OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.SO GROW UP..

    [Reply]

  • FIA

    As a muslim woman journalist I have never concurred with a fellow writer’s opinion of where we stand as a community and what we need to do to make a change. But this piece beautifully mirrors what Muslims must do today. Educate! Educate! Educate!
    But besides getting ourselves an education, it will also help if we could educate society about the faith. For every radical cleric, there is a rational Zia Haq or Fia who ridicules extremism in any faith, be it the Madrasa form or the Hindutva form, or even the capitalist form followed in the West. Having every muslim apologize for his identity would be equivalent to having present day Germans apologize for the Hitler’s atrocities or the British apologize for the Raj.
    Respect for the self is non-negotiable. Majority or minority…..everyone needs to practice this.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Fia,
    It would also help if he stops whining and seeing everything with a communal perspective. He talks about NHRC having a conflict of interest and in the same breath accuses them of communal bias. If there was truth to the theory of conflict of interest then no matter what, NHRC would have gone in favor of cops. Haven’t we seen that a countless times? Does Batla house stand unique because the victims happen to be Muslim? That is just a needless extrapolation.

    [Reply]

    Fia Reply:

    Akash,

    Do not insult our intelligence by using the word “whining” for every opinion expressed by folks like Zia. Would your take on his “extrapolation” also be termed “whining back?” This is ridiculous. Zia’s extrapolation as you call it is perhaps not his view on Batla house only, but the overall functioning of NHRC. Every citizen agrees we need stronger, more honest watchdogs in our country. When we stand on the rooftops and cry foul in all other muslim permeated attacks, we should also cry foul (or be able to express an opinion like Zia) in cases such as Batla house. This is precisely what I meant in my previous post, majority of minor be damned, we need to demand respect for human life, irrespective of the faith of victims.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Fia, motarma,thanks to the current geopolitical/security situation in the world , you dont need to educate us , we are bombarded by information about Islam, and sorry to disapoint you there is nothing unique in it as much the beleivers like us to beleive. In fact this applies to all religions. It is like somebody driven a mercedes or bmw(RATIONALIST) is being asked to see the virtue of ambassador car(incredible though many people in India try to defend its utility in indian condition)

    [Reply]

  • Akhlesh

    Zia: The Muslim mindset in India is that of a self-professed victim. That is a negative mindset, just like of many blacks in the US (where I live). Cast off that victim mentality, get educated, think, stop mixing religion and politics, and so on. Then the Muslims in India will develop a positive attitude.

    I really do not care if an increasingly larger fraction of Muslim women hide themselves in personalized tents, but I want to see their faces in public, so that I can be reasonably sure of their bona fides. Not for nothing am I apprehensive of Muslims who flaunt their religious identity. For the last three decades and more, worldwide terrorism has been perpetrated mostly by Muslims.

    I was recently in the West Bank. Amazingly, I found that educated and well-meaning Muslims (Palestinians) would not renounce violence in favor of civilized negotiations with the Israeli state.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >I was recently in the West Bank. Amazingly, I found that educated and well-meaning Muslims >(Palestinians) would not renounce violence in favor of civilized negotiations with the Israeli state.

    Why are you surprised ?
    didnt Mo say that, fight until all infldels are slayed ?

    they are just following his script..

    they will not stop fighting until all jews are thrown into sea and isreal is rubbed off the map..

    they have 57 countries in OIC, but cannot tolerate a single jewish country
    (occupying less then 1% of land in that region)..

    [Reply]

  • Varrey K M Rao

    Hi Zia,
    I agree with you, that there is discrimination against minorities in India, be it muslims, christians, lower castes in Hindus. I worked in a public sector company in Ghaziabad in 1985. The only muslim among executives in the company is a Tamilian. Thats because muslims in Tamilnadu are in small businesses, dominate with their presence in leather industry and trading. They are well off with their children competing with other communities in professional education. The love for thier mother tongue, Tamil is much more than the majority of Tamilian hindus. Except for the incident in Coimbatore, Tamilnadu was never successfully targeted by ISI, LET, SIMI etc.

    I think every community in India should stop complaining about discrimination and start community activities to improve their lot and make life better

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Varrey & others..

    complaining about Kafirs and infidels is a birth right for muslims.
    it is given by Koran.

    you must be dreamin, if you think muslims will stop complaining…

    please get rid of those thoughts from your own mind..

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    Sam! Kafir mean someone who hold a different faith and it is true. Is it not? it is the media that highlights it as if Muslims by calling others Kafir…….i am sure you lack information about Islam and Muslims…..please Google some of the non Muslims who have commented on beauty of islam

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    terrorists like Kasab and others are already telling how islam is terror.

    listen to the channel four documentary , with live recordings of Kasab’s handlers.
    how they tell he will reach heaven for killing infidel’s mercilessly.

    if you truly believe islam is beauty, you are lying or in self delusion.
    otherwise go to saudi and convince those clerics (who dedicated their whole life for study of islam) about that beauty.

    until then, stop your taqiyya..
    we know your plan to fool gullible hindus& others about your islam is peace.
    islam is terror.

    Sam Reply:

    this is a song produced for children by islamic channels in arabic.

    is islam peace ?
    how they are teaching small children to sacrifice themselves and kill others.
    how allah will taken them to heaven, once they kill others.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3909134,00.html

    John Reply:

    @Sam- Really, I am appalled to see the level these scumbags can stoop to. Oh, they are exploiting and poisoning the minds of innocent small children! These filthy people are really inhuman. Being a Pediatrician, I wish I could save those innocents from this debauchery! These dirty people should be put in prisons for life for polluting the purest part of human life. It is hideous and revolting to look at these videos. Are there no Pediatricians/Child Protection Agencies/NGOs in Middle-East?

    Sam Reply:

    @John.

    see how they indoctrinate children about killing jewish people..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

    the level of indoctrination is so intense, i am surprised that there are still some sane and humane muslims from arab countries..

    shan Reply:

    Sam my mate , your post about children on June 23rd 3:01 , is half truth. you are twisting the context to generate yet more bigotry and islamophobia. THIS WAS ABOUT PALESTINE and if I lived ther I may have been just about convinced about those invocations. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO IMAGINE THE CONDITIONS AND THE STATE IN WHICH THEY ARE “BARELY SURVING”. I think it is fair to say they are EXISTING RATHER THAN LIVING. And goes to show how the make their case from bad to worse by these mindless terrorist acts , because it only plays into the hands of the israeli , but if they used gandhian technique , then ig british empire could be dismantled , israel is a small fry. But for this YOU NEED REASON, RATIONALITY AND LOGIC NOT SUBMISSION, and you know what i mean by submission.

    Sam Reply:

    IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO IMAGINE THE CONDITIONS AND THE STATE IN WHICH THEY ARE “BARELY SURVING”. I think it is fair to say they are EXISTING RATHER THAN LIVING.

    that can be said for any minorities in islamic countries…
    for them it is even more worse than muslims.

    so all them also should start terrorizing islamic thugs in those countries.

    you are proving that most people are either terrorists or secret approvers/supporters.

    why can’t you condeman this video, which is broadcast in Bahrain.
    do not tell me people in bahrain are having hard living conditions.

    it is again that stupid ummah concept, when they are actively suppressing minorities in their own country..

    Sam Reply:

    This is also about how allah asks them to kill jews.

    read several verses about how all infidels and jews should be killed from islamic texts.

    they are taking those texts and telling children, to do it.
    the immediate cause is palestine.

    the basis of the logic is from Koran.

    they use the same texts for any other pet cause they have.
    either palestine, chechnya, kashmir, pakistan, afghanistan…
    you name it..
    the name palestine in that song can be substituted for anything which fancies their mind.

    what better to pollute childrens mind with filth.

    [Reply]

  • Dr. Javed Akhtar

    Simply crack the whip on real face of terrorism which is hiding under the garb of ‘Indian Mujahideen’ and let us salute to the brave spirit of Hemant Karkare.

    [Reply]

  • Ali

    i think the discrimination against Muslims has percolated to sub-conscious level where non Muslims pre-judge even if they meet the best of Muslims………..which is sad because the act itself rob us of our grace as human beings……I am a Muslims and was in love with a Hindu girl……..it was very tough for me to convince her and when i did she expressed the danger of loving a muslim boy……and i could understand what she must have been through when she left me mid-stream………
    persistence with hatred towards Muslims will take humanity 1000 years backward……..i think we need dialogue to bring change…..and i think India has the making of a great nation if the state is not captured by the wrong people who want the dominance of exclusive group……..

    [Reply]

    Yusuf Reply:

    Are Muslim girls allowed to marry or even romance outside their community?

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    i must tell you to go to JMI and you will see it for urself how many muslims girsl romance outside their community

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Why dont you write to Saudi or other muslim clerics and get an approval for Muslim girls to marry outside their faith..

    after you accomplish that, complain about other people’s biases and discrimination..

    until then, you are nothing but another muslim constantly complaining about others.
    (because it benefits you….
    if it doesnt benefit you.. you will do nothing…)

    shan Reply:

    Made my day, reason to feel optimistic about secular india.

    Akash Reply:

    Ali yaar,
    Sorry to hear about your heartbreaking episode, but really, are we going to judge the Indian State by that yardstick–that a Muslim guy got rejected by a Hindu girl because he was Muslim. I knew this was coming. Well, friend, women are strange anyways. Don’t fret on it; it’s her loss. If this is any consolation, I was bowled over by a Pakistani girl long time ago but her “bros” didn’t even allow me anywhere close to her, forget about expressing my love or whatever to her.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Ali,
    I bet your lady is singing, “Dil ke armaan aasuoon mein beh gaye…” in some corner of the world. Cheer up buddy. Remember what Faiz Saab said, “Aur bhi gham hai duniyan mein mohabbat ke siwa…” :)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >discrimination against Muslims has percolated to sub-conscious level where non Muslims pre->judge even if they meet the best of Muslims………..

    Tell that to Zakir naik..

    Which muslims have opposed his views on blasphemy ?
    can muslims have freedom to leave islam ?

    can jewish people build their place of worship in Mecca & medina before Mo banished them ?

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    Islam informs Muslims about the trans temporal consequences of leaving the folds of Islam but it can not chain a person to itself by force….it is upto an individual muslims if he wants to stay within the folds of Islam or not.
    I wonder why do you complian about Zakir Nia? he is a free human being and entitled to his opinion just like you are entitled to ur . but you forget the fact that you are trying to impose you wil upon all muslims when you “which Muslm opposed his views on blasphemy”.has he harmed anyone? if yes then Indian state should take action against him
    I also wish you would know the immense freedom a human being has……and i think Sam you are out to spoil a good forum that is here.
    The Jewish people can build thier place of worship where they think they have enough local support and standing….

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Can you answer, why ..if a muslim leaves islam he can be killed in many muslim countries ?

    Ali Reply:

    show me one muslim who has left and has been killed……google scholar

    Sam Reply:

    In 2006, Abdul Rahman, the Afghan convert from Islam to Christianity has attracted worldwide attention about where Islam stood on religious freedom. Prosecutors asked for the death penalty for him. However, under heavy pressure from foreign governments, the Afghan government claimed he was mentally unfit to stand trial and released him.
    Islam Online, a website,[citation needed] contains a fatwa dated 21 March 2004 and ascribed to ‘IOL Shariah Researchers’ says:
    “If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.‏ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.”[13] No one besides the caliph or his representative may kill the apostate. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (for arrogating the caliph’s prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).

    Sam Reply:

    Younus Shaikh, from Pakistan was sentenced to death for his blasphemous remarks on Muhammad[41]

    A medical lecturer in Pakistan has been sentenced to death under the country’s blasphemy laws after his students complained to a hardline Islamic organisation about one of his classes.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/aug/20/rorymccarthy

    Jimmy Reply:

    Now why are you silent?

    Sam Reply:

    >has he harmed anyone? if yes then Indian state should take action against him

    Zakir Naik is building a frame work, where supremacisist islam alone rules the world.
    he is not going to harm physically anyone, but his followers will.

    Even Hitler did not kill anyone.
    He did not shoot anyone.
    His ideas and hate framework and his followers do it.

    Zakir naik and Jinnah are in same category.
    maybe one day Zia will be added to that list , if he calls for death to infidels (which is required if he is a true muslim)..

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    dear sam ur assessment carries massive amount of subjectivity. Jinnah who i probably hate more than you do is hero in Pakistan…..and frankly i do not have much respect for zakir naik but he has commanded some respect for himself through what he says……
    I do not feel like bringing Modi and company into the discourse…cuz i want us to listen give and take and change our attitude……..me as a Muslim wont call for anyone’s death…….

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Ali,
    very simply, I think what Zakir Naik is doing is creating divisions and reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims among all others.
    Creating self-belief and self-respect in a community is a laudable objective; but, doing so in the way he does is not right. He is asking the community to look into religion for an answer to present day problems; it helps sell his cassettes and fills up lecture halls but ultimately is counterproductive.
    I see variants of the same theme even on this blog and I wish that would stop; for example:
    “Muslims should get education” no problem, but because “Allah says so”
    My objection to this line of reasoning is that, if Allah is reinforced as a justification for doing something, it can be twisted in the hands of a pursuasive demagogue and be used as justification for doing bad things as well.
    For any verse well-meaning, sensible Muslims will quote from the Quran, some idiot will find an equally persuasive verse which means just the opposite. Which is why, I keep de-stressing religion as a force of logic.
    After all, if we delved into non-Muslim scriptures (Hindu or Christian), there can be many things which can be quoted to justtify misogyny, killing, inequality blah blah. I am sure the ******** in Delhi who are killing their siblings and progeny in the name of honour can find justification in some scripture or the other.
    We are trying to get away from it all; it started relatively recently in both Christianity and Hinduism with varying success. But, again, social engineering is not successful in one generation.
    I would love it if there was a rational movement in Islam; even if it does not happen in my lifetime.

    Sam Reply:

    @Ashish…

    with all respect to you…

    you do not understand muslim psyche…

    unless allah said or religious texts say,
    they do not want to do anything.

    they have consult the mullah (of course who interprets islamic literature) for even simple things.

    only once they know that it is not HARAAM, they only muslim will proceed.

    by wishing muslims to think for themselves (without aid of their texts) is not going to happen.
    muslims are the most restricted people in terms of free thinking.

    they are most afraid of freedom to think for themselves.

    read history..
    any country occupied by islam lost its critical thinking with 2-3 centuries..
    (this varies depening on when they gained supremacy, what is the remaining % of infidels….)

    Sam Reply:

    >Jinnah who i probably hate more than you do is hero in Pakistan…..and frankly i do not have much respect for zakir naik but he has commanded some respect for himself through what he says…

    Even Jinnah commanded (still commands) enormous respect for himself through what he said..

    can you tell us what are the differences between Jinnah and Zakir…???

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sam,
    I agree with you even to your comment that I do not understand “muslim psyche”. If I did, I would not spend time here!
    But seriously, I do agree that Muslims have more difficulty than others in accepting change. I asked a question some time back on this blog (I think to Azhar Hussain)
    “Does the Quran have a guidance for everything? What about learning how to bike or swim?
    Is the absence of guidance liberating or constricting? How will you be guided?”
    This is the crux.
    The other question of course is if there is a conflict between religious guidance and laws, what will take precedence?
    This question is not for folks like Syed or Shoeb.

    Sam Reply:

    >Is the absence of guidance liberating or constricting? How will you be guided?”

    muslims believe Allah has revealed everything needed for their life.
    If you are asking “what about learning how to bike/swim”

    they will take it in two ways.
    1. you are making fun (which is expected from an infidel… and you should be executed..)
    2. if they do not have answers to your question, maybe they did not read and understand their texts.
    So they think they are just common people, not learned religious scholars.
    so they will ask a religious scholar to give answers.

    this again comes from their deep belief, that Allah already told them and the answers are right there.
    if they did not find the answers, it is because they are not religious enough to read all the texts….
    so they are ashamed of not read enough, so they need to commit more of their life to understand them…

    it goes on..

    Jai Reply:

    Ali yaar,
    What are you talking about? In case you missed it, Irfan Pathan is dating a Hindu girl. If you start concluding things like that, there is no place in the world that is completely free from such bias. If, on other hand, your girl had accepted your proposal, would you conclude that there is no bias against Muslims? Judging someone or a society by extreme cases is not fair. In fact, Muslims complain about the same thing: that they are being judged on the basis of a few nutcases.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    You know Ali, Hindus are prone to ignoring their daughter’s lover even if it was a hindu. So, you dont have to assume that she had to leave you because you were a muslim. She would have left you if you were a brahmin and she was a banya because banyas dont like to marry their daughters outside their caste !

    I would look at this in a positive way – the fact that she loved you means that she didnt see you as any different from any other human being. The fact that you are a muslim didnt matter to her.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    Ashish Sam and KD
    I like your view Ashish and i personally do not bring my religion in discourse to justify my act even if i draw massively from it. I infact tell my close friends to keep fiath in thier private realms.
    Sam i think your questions are childish as are your conclusion and stretching it further with you will be waste of my time …nevertheless what you said about my love…….i do respect ur views because every life is shaped by values in its ambiance…….my love left me for wharever reason…it is a reality
    KD every life is a distinct philosophy and your is one…your views are entitled to be aired …….yes she loved me ……….and left and i loved and will never forget her…………

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    ali…
    which of my questions are childish ?

    please tell more ..

    Ali Reply:

    in fact you have been so badly brainwashed that you are not ready to see the other side of the argument. you blame islam for th faults of few midled Muslims. I would dare you read the Quran and come and tell us the flaws of the relgion…..
    I have read numerous of your posts and they project you as incorriagble person

    shan Reply:

    Ali Mia jan, I know of countless instance of the situation reversed, though I must say many of those cases the parents “probably” would have relented if the person in question switched over to the religion of the relenting parennts. Then again this may be same with hindus,

    Sam Reply:

    @ali.
    still waiting for you to point out, which are childish …

    do not try to evade..
    why dont you tell us about views on blasphemy, Jizya, apostasy, …..

    let us start with those three…

    Ali Reply:

    Sam
    what do you want to know about blasphemy, Jizya and apostasy. you want me to enlighten you. I am not a theologist. But i can certainly tell you, your views are value-laden(which are fine with me) but please do not think your view things will have universal value…….I wish you could learn the idea multi-culturalism……and how value system come into existence…..Read the Quran and you will find your answer…..

  • Yusuf

    Has there been illegal Bangladeshi immigration in Assam? The answer is yes. Have the Ahoms been living in Assam for centuries? The answer is yes. There is no equivalency in this example Zia. One of the only ways to curb illegal Bangladeshi immigration (a process which has survived due to vote bank politics and quietly appreciated and encouraged in other circles) is to put the onus of proving ones citizenship on the applicant. In Delhi where I live, getting a passport requires neighborhood witnesses to vouch for you. Getting a Passport is not a right, it is a privilige and the ultimate certificate of citizenship. There are any number of refugees and illegal foreigners living in Delhi who try to enroll their kids in local government schools to get basic documents for obtaining a ration card and citizenship. In such cases you should not cry wolf or complain of perpeual bias without the process of due dilligence being completed. You yourself have not provided any evidence regarding the citizenship of this individual and the story seems to be based on hearsay. Despite of its recent history and the resultant scars, India does foster the most promising Muslim community and they do get more opportunities than they would in a lot of other countries including the ones in its neighborhood.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Thanks Yusuf. You are the face of new India and Gandhi, Nehru, and Azad’s dream.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Bravo Yusuf …….India needs role models like yourself. Subhaanallah !!

    [Reply]

  • prashanth

    Mr. Zia,

    You don’t have to do this. People like Asauddin Owaisi, the SIMI, the mulla’s of this country are already doing a good job of spreading hatred, victim mentality, alienation/ghetto-ization of the community. It doesn’t require another ‘educated’ Zia to do the same. If you are really concerned about something, it should be about the country, society, the ‘community’ (not a particular religion). The moment you try to focus on a particular community, you lose the inclusive-ness of the secular nature of our country. Did you ask yourself why a muslim student (at a very young age) tries to associate with fellow muslim classmates (forget abt colleges and work places when they become adults)?? Who tells them to do so? A non-muslim doesn’t even understand this…I mean I didn’t realize that they belonged to a particular religion until 6th/7th grade, and they have had already formed a group of their own much earlier. I mean who tells them….and there hardly seem to be any exceptions to this attitude. Mr. Zia answer to these questions before posting these blogs

    [Reply]

    Jacob Reply:

    Very true! Like I said, the concepts of ‘umma’, anti-Kafirism and bigotry are drilled into the Muslim minds from infancy. Google ‘child terrorist’ and see for yourself the videos from Islamic channels.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    that does not go all the muslims kids….just one muslims kid can not be representitive of the entire Muslims population….please Jacob…..do not worsen the world for all of us…..which include u

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Ali,
    Don’t feel disheartened. I agree with you and so do a lot of others. Some of the people here just need to vent, that’s all..

  • Yusuf

    Zia the problem with your ranting is that by giving a religious dimension to every possible issue under the sun you end up hurting Muslims and increasing the divide. While legitimate issues do have need for discussion, you have to differentiate your sheet from the Milli Gazette.

    [Reply]

  • Kishan

    “Fair deal or disintegration” almost sounds like a threat aimed at the Govt of India.
    If you want to be miserable you will be miserable howsoever materially well off you may be. It is basically a state of mind issue.
    Our professor in college (40 years back) used to say “If you have shoes that you don’t like, think of the people who walk barefoot”.
    If I go to a govt department for some work the officer there makes me feel very small, as if he does not like to see my face(Zia being a media-person may be much better off).So this is an almost universal problem in India, not a Muslim vs Hindu issue, it is the rich and powerful who get their way and the poor aam aadmi keeps running from pillar to post. Muslims can threaten to disintegrate the country but does the common sufferer at the hand of the govt also want to disintegrate the country; in what way will it benefit him? Has disintegration benefited the Indian or Pakistani Muslims?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Now lets not bring Pakistan into the equation. Regardless that we In Pakistan are going through trouble times, it is more our fault and ofcourse our enimies taking advantage of it. But we will come out of it strouger, there is no doubt in our collective minds.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    well if you think handing over the state to extremist Wahabis will make you stronger …than you need to study their plans

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Zia is perpetuating myths and half truths.

    Anybody, to get anything done by govt, has to pay bribe (lets all fight to eradicate corruption!). It is stupid to say Muslims are singled out.

    Zia should write about causes why Muslims in some parts of india are backward (so also many others are backward), and what should Muslims do about that. Complaints nd handouts won’t do. There must be a reason if people have negative undercurrents about Muslims, but not about Christians, Sikhs, Budhists etc. Let me tell youu one thing; I have never felt discriminated in this great country; I always felt (and feel) sky is my limit. Why only Muslims have this problem. For God’s sake they ruled Deccan, Mysore, most of North India – what were they doing then, could nt they have instituted education and built a culture of learning like others have done…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims simultaneously claiming superiority and discrimination.

    on one hand they say
    we rule india for 800 yrs and would have finished all hindus if we wanted.

    on the other hand..
    this evil Yindoos are suppressing us from realizing our true status….

    what is the real truth ?

    they had all the power and wealth and control and army…for this long.
    hindus did not have anything,,,

    it is a joke, claiming both simultaneously..
    do i see a delusion and lack of self criticism ? or is it inherent in arab mentality ?

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    Suddenly Zia’s heart bleeds for the ones who perpetrate violence against society and are called not muslims when it serves his purpose but today they are woronged.It is normal everywhere in the world muslims are doubted whenever acts of violence are perpetrated.The onus is or has to be on the muslims to change this,it can not come or expected from others.See for your self how the muslim majority country Pakistan treats Ahamadis.See the muslims of U.K. demanding sharia,and not respecting the law of the land they live in.The whole of Europe is weary of the impudence shown by the muslims living amongs them.The sharia lovers can always go to Pakistan.The fun is the hardliners say they are the true ,pious muslims and the other moderates [muslims] are kuffars.We do not know who to believe,the ones who are ready to die or the ones who lie.Ask not what the country can do for you but what you can do for the mother land.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    when muslims commits terrorism acts..

    all those peaceful islamists claim..

    “he is not a true muslim, as he committed crimes”
    (while the terrorist claims he is the true muslim).

    but then they just want to keep defending those psycopaths..

    maybe these secular acting muslims are the true pscyopaths.

    one muslim commits terror and other muslim lies to defend him.

    who should the world believe ?
    who is the true muslim ?

    why should the rest of the secular world care about what is written in Arabic in Koran ?
    that is not the secular govts or a Hindu or christian’s business.

    these terrorists and peaceful secular acting muslims are like Jekyll and Hyde
    two faces of a same evil …

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    see the impudence, the intolerance and the threat to break away if not obliged.Nice going Zia,Pakistan was created in same way,just for muslims only.Pakistan part 2.

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    The kind of anti hindu bias in face of existance of hardly any orgn like jihadis with sucide bombers and what not I find it baffling how people can nopt see why people see jihadists fore what they have bene doing.. 99.9999% cases terrorists are musslims people like zia weave castles based on 0.00001% cases

    [Reply]

  • Tarun

    ZIA HAQ,
    As you sow so you reap. Did you ever care to read the unbaised history of sub-continent since 10th century?

    Perhaps you may write next blog entry on what, as a muslim, do you think about the uncountable atrocities commited on hindus by your ancestors?

    Perhaps you may write on why most of the conflicts around the world involve muslims?

    [Reply]

  • M R Goswami

    There is lot of difference between Hindu and Muslim religions. Hinduism is a way of life from ancient time and it has many reformist movements. This can not happen in Islam. In Hinduism, men and women are equal religiously as well as constitutionally. In Islam, a woman is one half of a man. In Islam women are treated like an object to be used in any way her husband likes. Most parts of India were ruled by Muslims for about 800 years and nobody can forget the atrocities committed by Muslim rulers on their Hindu subjects. Hindu women were sold in the bazars of Kabur and Kandhar. They boiled and roasted hindus. Whatever present day muslims in India may say, Islam is a religion of terror minded people.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    MRG – We have to live in the present, learning from history so history does not repeat. historical injustices can never be settled, because then it will be an unending stream of violence. Hindu women being subject to those atrocities in those times, unfortunate thhough it is; cannot be avenged by Hindus doing the same thing to Muslims now. What we all have to strive for is the prevention of repeats from any side.

    This is where people like Zia can be constructive. Through highlighting individual lapses as the collective organized act of a state and its majority, and through implication labeling the state a Hindu state, Zia is pushing the majority to the limits when they will start resorting to the historical vengence. He should be careful and sensitive to this.

    There are flaws in our judicia and administrative systems. These flaws affect Hindus , Muslims, cxhristians all; and not pick one sect. Obviously, many are concerned about Islamic terrorism. And only Muslims can alleviate that concern through their acts and interactions.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    i love ur views…..how elegant ur thoughts are

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    it is all non sense and this will neither help you nor us….where did you read this ****?
    Had Muslims wanted to finish the Hindus during their rule they could have..but look at the best Indian architecture …they were built during Muslim period………India is known and is among the countries that still has sufi way of life and much of it has been inspired by Muslims…….so please think about what you say cuz it may lead to murderous mythical opinion for which you wont forgive urself…….

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ali– U r right.. No meaning in going after historical injustice/baggage; be in present time.

    I for one hope and pray Muslims all over the world will follow Sufi form. And all others will follow too

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Ali–
    >Had Muslims wanted to finish the Hindus during their rule they could have

    either you are arrogant or ignorant of the history.
    either case, stop listening your local mullah on this.

    –start reading the non-mullah/muslim history..

    it is more logical with numerical superiority, if hindus wanted they could have killed every single muslim…

    [Reply]

  • http://Ssingh Ali

    I love ur views for durable peace…..and humanity…..

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @M.R Goswami, the surname is a give way, nothing else is expected from these caste hindus, who are also raw sewage of hell. Those who are weak blame others the wise looks into the mirror. The hindu religion and hindus would have been exterminated(like kashmir) due to the vile acts of these vile people , unless swami vivekananda (non Bramhin) , stopped the outflow which was occuring towards the twin attraction of christianity and Islam. How graciously the hindu religion used to treat under the aegis of these vile people, here are some examples. They used to burn alive wives whiose husband had died ,so that the property is not divided , and they gave inducements by calling her sati, a bit like suicide bombers promised seventy two virgins in heaven. They also operated KULIN system whereby bramhins married hundreed girls , some token , some as young as five year old. There was a case in calcutta in those times when a girl of nine died of bleeding from intercourse. They also created DEVDASI , which in house prostituite like a ready meal available anytime. The scoundrel MANU said women are like field where you sow seeds. That means their only worth is producing children , and that wont drop from swarg , so much better for menfolks. Has any body seen Gautam Ghosh’s film ANTARJALI JATRA starring shotgun sinha. THE GIRL IS GETTING MARRIED TO A CORPSE (not exactly, but the fellow is put on a pyre as he is expected to die anytimesoon),. And HOW ABOUT AISHARYA RAI GETTING MARRIED TO TREE , MANGALIC AND ALL THAT SHIT And last but the ONE THAT BEATS EVERY RELIGION INCLUDING THE VILEST PART OF ISLAM , IS THE TREATMENT OF DALITS. The same tradition is continuing , the raw sewage is in action in the form of Raj Thackeray(bramhin) . By the way I am not muslim or christian , but a rational humanist with a hindu sounding surname.

    [Reply]

    M R Goswami Reply:

    Dear Shan, I am happy to read your comments. Kindly note that all the bad rituals in Hinduism are and were existing as you have elaborately mentioned, that is why reforming of these evils was and even today is a possibility. We in Hinduism can call spade a spade. Whenever and whatever is wrong, we can boldly say it is wrong. What I meant to mention, in Islam there is no such scope. They kill others calling them non-believers and their holy book guarantees them berths in heaven with lot of wine and women, though wine is haram for muslims on this earth. Please do not take me as anti Muslims as human being. They call it Jihad if they wage a war against any non-muslims. Is not it ?

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Shan

    Although not a Hindu (but great great great great great great great…grandson of a Namboodiri Brahmin convert, according to our family tree), I take exception to ur portrayal. Yes, bad stuff happened. To their credit, many of them got rectrified; many of the Barhmins lost land holdings as a part of land reform acts, and almost all adapted to the enw reality of new India.

    The ancient terms Brahmarshi, Brahma, Brahman etc menat only people with knowledge, learne d people. In that system, anybody could migrate to the “next level” … The great rishi and writer Vyasa was a fiherman “graduated into” Brahmarshi thru knowledge.. The first-ever poet in the world Valmiki was a hunter gatherer. However, things get corrupted, when vested parties instituinalize the psoitions through the right of birth and prevent the achievement through rigorous training or learning. What is ahppening in Indian politics is no different – a Rahul Gandhi, YSR son, Karunanidhi children, Patnaiks, Scibdias, Pilots … .

    Just ebcause he uses hi Goswami name does not mean that he is a bad person, and sumtotal of any brahmin mischiefs of the past. Human beings are human beings – there are good and bad in all groups.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Raju Kurien , I have stated in response to the line”in hinduism men and women are treated equal religiously”. Unless I acted with such ferocity (already some are getting very touchy, and I need not name them) , the next time you would come across from some mishra, sharma, chaterjee ,aiyyar , THAT IN HINDUISM ALL CASTE INCLUDING CHAMAR, DHOBIS, AND DOMES ARE TREATED EQUALLY.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Shan–
    should i call every muslim a pedophile ?
    (just because Mo did it )…

    if you do not agree, then why are you saying all bad things to someone just based on their names

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    It is not based on thier names but what they are saying , and the saying is compatible with few surnames.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >And last but the ONE THAT BEATS EVERY RELIGION INCLUDING THE VILEST PART OF ISLAM , IS THE TREATMENT OF DALITS.

    Do you know islam allows owning slaves ?
    It also permits having sexual relations with a slave girl.
    (i rather be born as a dalit, than a slave to arab muslims).

    Even now the scholars in saudi say that, muslims should own slaves (especially infidels).

    Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan: “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.” He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining, “They are ignorant, not scholars … They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel.”

    At the time of the fatwa, Al-Fawzan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_s...

    [Reply]

  • Kalyani Kapur

    Zia will you stop self pity & begging for dignity. Step up, join the main stream. Abdul Kalaam, is a Muslim, very well respected & honoured by Hindu, Muslims & what have you. End of the day who we are makes a difference, not our religion. This community in particular has mob mentality, so they suffer from the choices they make. Pandits in Kashmir very killed, raped, murdered, but they didn’t pick up arms & blew up places/people in the name of justice. Muslims took over everything they had, how come that doesn’t raise any emotion from you. Stop fueleing the fandamentalist.

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    It is the creed of the arabs,for arabs and by arabs.It is not at all compatible with the ethos and the psyche of the sub continent and as it was spread by force, violence and intolerance and not by love or understanding has bourne bitter fruits for us today.Re-deciphering ,harmony and peace in true sence is the answer

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    prayer in arabic, arabic customs, “foreign” outfits, “arabic names……no wonder why there is separation…

    Like many streams that meregd in India, Indian Msulims should move away from the Arab based rigidity to the soft humanistic Sufi Islam. Otherwise it is like oil and water.

    [Reply]

    ramesh Reply:

    Yes you are right my friend,it is plain monkey’ing the arab traditions,devoid of reasoning or understanding.these days more and more arabazation is takeing place blindly.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Zia is just exciting muslims to get ready for death..

    or does he mean death to infidels ?

    (remember muslims will read fellow muslims statements differently than the mainstream)..

  • syed

    @Ashish
    “I guess if I accept Shan as a product of that heritage, I have to accept that it spawned some seriously flawed strains.” —-too good:)

    @Shan
    Not to be offended. I am just complementing Ashish on his english

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    A proud product of a Bengali medium government aided free education sir! The medium changed when we moved to Delhi but the rest of it did not!
    Love my country that it made my education possible. And, I have tears in my eyes as I type this.

    [Reply]

  • http://hindustantimes shan

    And Yes caste hindu means those fallen souls who beleive in caste hierachy/superiority, those who do not are not caste hindus by my defination.

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Ashish, Sircar can be anything , this was not kayastha, he was yadav, (sodgope) . Jara jagey ghomoy , tader jagano jai na.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Shan,
    While I sympathize with your wounded feelings and the source of your vituperation, I fail to understand the totally unnecessary caste groupings of various personalities. I didn’t know Swami Vivekananda was a Kayastha, and does it really matter? of course, as you mentioned, Hinduism has/had many hide-bound practices, which I why I always think that our Hindu brethren here should exercise a bit of caution before letting it fly on Muslims and anyone else. The best part of Hinduism is that due to the caste factor and no single agreed upon formula, one idiot Mullah may never be able to coalesce everyone around a single dogma. That internal balancing act is very important to recognize. That is what makes Hinduism naturally more amenable to provide space to different ideologies, something people from other religions agree to. However, some people here by bad mouthing other religions unnecessarily are not helping matters. Zia, though, should explain as to why he is shouting disintegration. Do we need another trauma or what? Such statements are wholly irresponsible. He has conveniently kept quiet about the High Court freeing Fahim and co. If there was such a bias against Muslims, they would have been kept locked in jail.
    A part of me thinks that such sensational blogs are a ruse to get more visitors.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Amit , what you are saying is known as ORGANISED AND NON ORGANISED RELIGION. As much you may feel elated that there are no mullah like thing in hinduism to coalesce all , they need not because their purpose was not the religion or its followers but their self aggrandisement.Also the very virtue of hinduism that you are talking about CAN BE A DOUBLE EDGE SWORD, THAT IS WHY INDIANS ARE THE LEAST PATRIOTIC COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. Their patriotism is defined by one single mission pakistan bashing.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    “self aggrandisement”" — is it loosly close to Individualism? And if so, one would expect individuals to have excelled and built and grown?? Or did these individuals spend an onerous amount of time in preventing others from accomplishing and not on their own growth?

    shan Reply:

    @Amit , in case you thought this was a case of SC/ST getting his pound of flesh , it is not I am not SC/ST , and last count there were twenty seven doctors in my paternal side of the family. In fact one of my aunt is a bramhin, it is my overriding impulse garnered from my upbringing to be vociferous in defense of rationality and humanism.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    When zia says disintegration and deaths..

    it is legitimate to talk about
    “peaceful transfer of unhappy muslims to pakistan”.

    this is the unfinished business of the partition.

    if all trouble making muslims left (just like Jinnah)..
    the problem would have been solved long time back…

    even now it is not too late.

    even secular muslims will be happy if all the rabble rousers and fundoo’s move away from india.

    who will start this movement ?

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Ashish ,Shan

    Let us not lose sight of the present and now.. Ashish’s point is atrocities and bad practices existed, but people got out of that, adapted, and di not configure their lives within the bounds of a book. The issue being discussed was Zia’s constant whining and “give me respec” campaign, and many, rightfully pointing to that respect has to be earned and not legislated.

    Also, when we talk about historical role of women, caste, misdeeds, atrocities etc, we should keep in mind that pracices, purpose etc changed from region to region. For example, in Travancore /Kochi and Malabar (present kerala), matriarchial system prevailed (and still prevails) within a fairly large section of teh society. Only women had property rights, offsprings will take their mother’s family name (and not fathers family name).. So Tharoor is Shashi Tharoor’s mother’s family name; for Mempally Nirupama Menon Rao (foreign sc) Mepally is her mother’s family name and Menon her mother’s caste; for, Palat is his mother’s house nameand Menon is his mother’s caste (his father’s last name would have been something else, not necessarily a menon). Property passed from mothers to daughters . This exclusive property ownership/rights continued until mid 50s when Hindu uniform code was passed..

    While there was subjugation of women in many parts, history also shows many cases where women were ‘equal’ to men. It was a learned woman, Bharathi (mandan Misra’s wife) who was the judge in the famous debate between Adi Sankara and Mandan Mishra. Andal, probably the first woman writer/poet in the world, wrote poems and got respect (and now evenw orshipped as a Goddess in Tamil Nadu). Recen thistory has Laksmi Bhai, who was not born into a “warrior” class leading a war. The women in the great epics of India were portrayed as evolved individuals. I hope somebody will do reserach on how Indian men could abuse women (as Shan says in those days), when they worshipped numerous powerful dieties liike Durga, Devi, Lakshmi, Saraswathi etc. Sakthi, the God of the sumtotal of physical and mental strength, is not a man either.

    My parents and their church (technically me too) follow a central religious authority located in Antioch, Syria. Muslims generally follow what their Maulavis instruct (although many now dream of establishing a caliphate; the inner desire is for a Caliph). Hindus do not have a central authority to dictate code of conduct; milliuons may go to Tirupati; but those millions may care a hoot for the Tirupati priest. There was no central “brahmin” strategy to control and abuse; like any society, the powerful wanted to keep power through birth right; India (or the little kingdoms) also moved away from the utopian and noble concepts of “Rama Rajya” to obviously a “Bad Rajya”.

    Well, there is this spiritual (female) person in Kerala – Mata Amrithananda Mayi, the “hugging” mother. She (is a she), born into Dalit community. She has zillions of followers in Kerala, India, and world over. Figure out……

    [Reply]

  • KD

    One of these days, someone needs to complete a statistical analysis of the proportion of various ethnicities that indulge in violence across the world.

    If the level of suspicion a society has for a specific minority is NOT proportional to the percentage of people from that minority’ that resort to violence, I would call it religious discrimination.

    In other words, If I suspect that a rat might have drilled a hole in my pants, does it mean that I discriminate against rats or just a mathematical prediction of the most likely cause ?

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    Bigotry,intolerance,brazeness and inconsistency elswhere are on the fringes but here they are mainstream.It is demanded of them to pursue the spread of their beliefs by any and all means.A slight change in the belief or thinking would bring the deep rooted fury on others,hence we see the bitternes and hatred amongs themselves which leads to annihilating the slightly different ones.All of them carry these seeds which sprout at the slightest.Living all their lives in the west is no deterrent.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    East or west , north or south , if only everybody subscribed to humanity first and not latching on to their prejudices and confine themselves in the cubby hole of tribalism , the world would be an infinitely better place.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >if only everybody subscribed to humanity first

    that is a dream and if that happens it is like heaven on earth…

    Back to reality..
    it is not going to happen

    so just work on just one or two or three major things and learn to live with problems…

    so if you have a genie, who can grant one of your wishes,,, what is your wish ?

    [Reply]

    Jimmy Reply:

    Genie, abolish all religions, cults, castes, races and creeds! Let there be just Humanity!

  • Rita Kaul

    All this talk about religionism is just an excuse.We all understand what the human race is all about n how it all started.To fulfil personal desires one goes to any length.I wish I could understand the workings of a criminal mind n those besotted by it so that there could be some cure.Problems then could easily be resolved n let people lead their lives happily.Anybody listening ???

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    yes Rita, listening but dont understand. How will there be a cure if you understand the workings of a criminal mind ? Please explain, I am eager to hear about the cure

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @All

    Some interesting news from Pakistan, which is given without comment

    http://www.speroforum.com/a/19435/Pakistan-job-quotas-for-religious-minorities

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Shan
    “You seem to forget APJ kalam ’s contribution is probably more in terms of sophistication and utility than tagores.”
    Interesting. In what way?

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    In every way,any country needs science more than poetry, orbital dynamics, and rocket science demand a tad higher level of M neuron firing, and more intense activity in frontal lobe and corpus callosum.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    We are not debating the relative intelligence of Tagore and Kalam.
    Just want to understand what you understand about the contribution and stature of Kalam as a scientist, as a manager of our defence r&d and particularly the missile program.
    Just a hint: I respect Kalam as a patriot, as a simple man of humble habits and as someone who brought dignity to the Rashtrapati Bhavan. So, any argument of yours which reinforce my thinking will be wasted. Please restrict your response to what his contribution to science -research and its management has been.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    All your queries pertaining to his contribution is for there for everyone to see. He was the architect of the first rocket rohini , after having his training in Langley laboratories in Virginia USA. This was upscaled to using strap on booster to send satellites at low orbits.

    Bobby Reply:

    Oh Come on!

    Kalam and Tagore! Tagore’s contribution is atleast a billion times more than kalam’s!

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Bobby, Please name which novel , has the heroine named Labanya. We will think about the billion fold effect then.

    shan Reply:

    @Amit, I am staggered , even though you profess not to know a word of bengali , you extoll tagore to a deity , almost like totem worship. Popularity is one thing , NOBLE PRIZE IS THE THING, without that tagore wouldn’t have the adulation that he has, satyajit ray understood very early in his career , that is why he sent his print to newyork for a festival before its formal release in india. Actually one imbecile commented that pather panchali would not pass a rough cut in hollywood, and francois Truffaut walked out while being screened at Cannes Film Festival.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Nobel prize is one thing; not necessarily the thing… Nobel for Shakespeare? Kaalidasa? Vyasa? RK Narain..Homer..Gaethe..

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Man doesnt live by bread alone.

    A countrty needs all sorts of talent; and Shan is right, that a country from an economic development, and feeding its people perspectives, obviously needs more scientists.

    Pandit Nehru was often criticized that he gave more time for poets and writers than to his bureaucrats. He often had them and visiting foreign dignatories waiting, if he was in a dialogue with a writer.

    Both Kalam and Tagore are owmers of excellent minds. One contributed to a country. Other’s works enthralled the whole humanity (it is a stretch..) and will continue entertain posterity.

    Would England be any different without Shakespeare? Probably not. However, imagine the world without Shakespeare.

    Anyway, nowa days, one of the metrics of popularity, relevance etc is the number of Google “hits” on name, term, incident etc. Fifty years from now Dr Kalam may not have any hit. However, my guess is that Tagore will still have hits in the five-six digits.

    Great poets and writers never die. They live through us and our progeny. In that sesne, they are “chiramjivi” s.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, imagine the WORLD without , Issac Newton, Edward Jenner, Alexander fleming, Peter Hounsfield, marconi, John Logie Baird.

    Amit Reply:

    Shan,
    I think you are now carrying this caste thing to entirely new heights of discussion. Can we really measure Tagore’s contribution in terms of his caste, lineage, etc. As for his comparison with Kalaam, c’mon, buddy… Even Kalaam would say that there would be 100s like him in India, but Tagore comes once in 500 years; I am speaking this as a non-bengali. You can’t compare the two. It’s like apples and oranges. Both science and art require each other, and at some level, they are not very different. Kalaam, howsoever great his contribution to our space program is, is still a tinker when it comes to core science. In fact, I would go far as to say that the inventor of AC has a bigger contribution to the 20th century than even the likes of Kalaam, but can you say he stands above Michaelangelo?
    By the way, I do not understand why Bengalis go ga-ga over Rabindra Sangeet. That is one weak aspect of Tagore. It’s pretty, that’s it. I am sure this would now cause a firestorm here and in Calcutta but… :)

    Amit Reply:

    Shan,
    Imagine the world without Rakhi Sawant!

    shan Reply:

    @amit , the world without rakhi sawant remains a wonderful world for people who are “straight “may not be to the others ,but cannot like to live in a world bereft of zeenat aman , deepikapadukone, preity zinta, incredible it may seem I can well do without bacchan bahu mrs rai.

    Amit Reply:

    Shan,
    How can you forget Dimple Kapadia!!! That’s blasphemy and you should have a fatwa coming your way very soon. By the way, I share your lack of enthusiasm for Mrs. Rai. She is made for museum, not for real life.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    and what about kajool? And for oldies like me, Smitha Patil, who is no more.. btw, I will take Rai if u do not want!

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi,
    Kalam did not do a single original piece of work as a scientist or as a manager of other scientists. He is at best a mediocre engineer and a good manager of his bosses.
    His tenure as a DRDO chief was marked by missed deadlines on all projects; the missile projects for one.
    Anyway, this is idle chatter; “Shakespeare or Newton??” The world would be poorer without either. But, Kalam is not in the same league, intellectually.

    shan Reply:

    @Amit, but she is chain smoking, booze dependent , her entire tome of vocubalary is swear words, and her sense of humour is cracking rude jokes. as for the physical aspect , yes indeed it is worthy of a fatwa to ignore her body, and also her hair.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    That’s my kind of girl– alcohol and rude jokes! It can’t get any better.. What a twit–that Rajesh Khanna..And you forgot her eyes..You are racking up fatwas man..

    Gopi,
    I share your appreciation of Patil. Kajol..hmm..not quite…

    shan Reply:

    @amit, eyes are the monopoly of “sambar” land. Hema malini , jaya prada , meenakshi sheshadri and now vidya balan . I could write a meghdoot in praise of those eyes,

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @shan

    Yes, I can imagine. Because somebody else, including a scientist probably like you, would have invented it later. Such is the nature of scientific progress. Brilliant minds with the toolsets of synthesis, analysis, hypothesis, equations and above all drive, determination, goal, and focus opens up the hitherto hidden things and mysteries of the world .

    I am not diminishing these great achievements – these are pathbreaking benefit bestowing ones..no doubt .. what would the world be without penicillin..

    But we human beings are selfish. We take mysteries of the world granted. It is the Desdemonas, Draupadis, Shakuntalas, Harry Potters, Hamletts that engage our mind.

    To be or not tobe? It was the best of Times, worst of times. And the first verse ever written — yed krauncha midhumam dehi…

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Amit,
    Ha ha ha ha….
    you got me there; yes Rabindra Sangeet is a weak spot with me.
    But, yes. very little musical innovation in most of them, many if not most tunes are derivative.. but, hey they are hummable. And the words are arguably of a much higher standard than “Beedi jalai le…” :-)

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    I dont understand in what sense one can compare an ordinary nuclear engineer who was basically a hawk….loves nuclear missiles and was perhaps the worst president India had ever…. with a genuis like Tagore- I mean if you has said C. V. RAMAN or Chandrashekhar, Bose etc… there would be some comparison…. but please not some one like Kalam….

    As president Kalam was perhaps the worst ever…. he would go and give lectures to kids, on how to make India a great country by 21st century— keep roads clean, work hard, etc etc…. but was silent on the BJP regimes excesses…especially kept quite during the Gujarat riots….

    That alone shows how he was nothing but a dumb doll of the BJP….

    He had no clue about the socio-economic reality of India, has never mentioned the problesm of caste nor the injustices of Dalits etc…. or shown any understanding of how to solve it…..

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby @Shan

    (Where were you Bobby?)

    It looks like we are all becoming poets — moving from extremist Islam to Tagore to Kalam to Deepika Pudukone..like Kalidasa’s Meghdoot clouds moving from season to season , from villages to cities, from rivers to mountains….

    Labeling Dr Kalm as an ordinary engineer, worst president etc is denying his accomplishments and contributions. I have seen many years in my life; many presidents have come and gone. Contarry to what Bobby thinks; one of his great achievements was his connection with the children. To them he was a “hero”. Thanks to Kalam, I bet, there are hundreds of students pursuing advanced sciences in India. He had a knack to motivate children. He had a knack to motivate adults , that too self idolizing business executives. I remeber the ovation he got in 2005 Nascom meeting; and the adulation people felt for him.

    He may not have been an intellectual giant like Dr S Radhakrishnan. Pratibha Patil?? Zail Singh???

    Can presidents do anything else other than to motivate? Does India even need a President? Is that money well-spent on something else?

    And will one become great only if one addresses the socio-economivc problem or the dalit problem? Did Narayanan, being a dalit, do anything special for Dalits? For God sake, he did not even marry a dalit. And for all crying about Brahmin control of Dalits, how did one Dalit Narayanan get educated in Keral, Madras, and then in Oxford some ninety years ago? Wsnt Narayanan in the hands of Sonia and other congress leaders like Kalam is attributed as under BJP? Arent all presidents after Radhakrishnan stooges of the ruling party?

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    One of the best presidents of India was K. R. Narayanan

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    agreed.. but, I think you are being a trifle too harsh on dear Kalam as a president. As a scientist, he was a minnow.

    [Reply]

    KD Reply:

    Please educate me – what did narayanan do for the country ?

    [Reply]

  • shan

    @Bobby, let me begin by the parable of bengali crabs. Bengalis are like crabs. If you open a pot containing few crabs , you will notice a unique behaviour. Every time one crab tries to climb out of the pot other crabs will do their best to pull him back into the pot. Now I thought this was unique bengali attribute. After reading some remarks it reminds me what gokhale said”what bengal thinks todat rest of india thinks tomorrow. How ungrateful we are. Now whatever Kalam has done or contributed WONT BE POSTED ON WIKIPAEDIA nor will it appear in journal of aeronautical engineering, because these ARE ULTRA HIGH SECRET PROJECT. I have no idea about the nitty gritty aspect of his work . But it is reasonable to assume that if he has been bestowed with BHARAT RATNA , then it is unlikely to be complete bunkum. It is not padmashree any idiot like saif ali kahn gets it. This is highest honour , denigrating this is denigrating all the past recepient and they can be counted in one hand.I came across a write up (i cannot remember the context) in THE TIMES, OF LONDON . I said about a meeting with kalam and the father of modern rocket science Herr Braun (who had been appropriated by yanks and put to use in NASA after the end of ww2. Kalam apparently told braun he was having lot of difficulties and failures and lot of frustration in his getting results. Braun told him “we not only build on our successes but we also build on our failures. Now a man of braun’s stature woudn’t really be entertaining kalam or lend his ears if he didn’t have any worth that was worthy of braun’s appreciation.I read some sweeping remarks another classical bengali trait , may be I am not immune to it , but then again I was not born in bengal and my childhood was in bihar , thus I still retain some humillity.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Shan

    Dr Kalam iis ndeed an accomplished scientist, executive, and administrtor . Nobody should diminish his achievements (and I do not think anybody is) He has motivated lakhs of children; also adults. As I indicated elsewhere, I guestimate there may be 500-1000 high caliber, world class budding Indian scientists who chose science as a field of study because of his keen interest in interacting with children. Let me tell you he is the only person (I am aware of) in the Indian political/administratibve system whom children considered a hero/one they would like to follow. The only leader who had that type of following/devotion in post independent India was Pandit Nehru; and to some extent his daughter Mrs Indira Gandhi.

    Whilel his accomplishments are great and many, these cannot be compared to music, arts etc . As Amit mentioned it is apples and oranges, or more like chapati and air. Bethovan and Wagner; Michelangelo and Raja Ravi Varma and Hussain, Shakespeare and Tagore, their creations live for ever for generations to enjoy and contemplate. Scientific discoveries and inventions will eventually be invented/discovered by a Newton or somebody after Newton; so in all cases of scientific accomplishments the only yardstick is who did it first (and by default last). Of course, they all have brilliant minds. Nobody is disputing that.

    Vyasa is read and enjoyed by many after 3000 or 4000 years; Kalidas, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dickens, Bibhuthi Bhushan, Tara Sankar, Khandekar, ….. Many lives were enhanced and will be enhanced for milleniums and milleniums to come. Of course, penicillin etc also will benefit millions in futrure (except when a future scientist discovers that Peniccilin used under global warming scenarios will cause cancer, and then a future scientist will invent a new breed of pencillin that can wither global warming!)

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Gopi Thomas, I hope your mindset is not representative of India. Newton’s contribution is like the ones (whoever they are) who discovered alphabet and language, without which you would not have any literature , let alone literary figures. Science is what enabled west to be what it is , Science is not just a discipline , it is the highest form of expression of the human mind. IN SCIENCE ONLY LIES THE KEYS TO INDIAS AND THE WORLD’S SURVIVAL AND PROSPERITY

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I am not saying Kalam was not a good nuclear engineer, I have heard he was a good team leader and all that but please he does not come anywhere in the list of great Indian Scientists…. I am sure even he would agree to that. As a president he was mediocre….

    One has to understand that having good technical skills is not what o good president should have….. One has to have some understanding of the soci-economic situation in the country….From Kalam’s speeches, I neve got that impression……

    I especially hated the fact that he kept silent, when GUjarat burnt…. Not a word from him… Contrast that to Narayan, and you will see what I mean…..

    Ashish Reply:

    Bobby,
    just a small correction; Kalam was an aeronautical engineer; his understanding of nuclear science is as good or as bad as any moderately technical person.
    He led the missile program for DRDO. All his projects were delayed substantially; so much for his management.
    He was the head of DRDO when the Pokhran II blasts happened; he and Chidambaram of DAE were joint chief co-ordinators. His role was not that of a scientist or designer. He is labeled the missile man, because he has been a hawk in the nuclear establishment and has consistently argued for India to be equipped with the nuclear deterrent. He has become the face of the nuclear weapons program because he was the most public and vocal face in the scientific establishment who took that stance.
    I liked Kalam as a President; but then, I used to like MMSingh as a PM too! Look, as Gopi says, after Radhakrishnan, Zakir Hussain etc the bar has been systematically lowered for all Indian presidents.. compared with Zail Singh, Pratibha Patil, Fakruddin Ali Ahmad… Kalam shines.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Shan

    I agree Newton’s contributions are of immense foundational value. What I pointed to was, if not Newton, some other scientist, would have discovered the law of gravity some years down. Newton happene dto be the first (and by default last) scientist to discoverand formulate the law of gravity. Scientific discovery is aprocess; there are yet many secrets to be discovered and being discovered, mathematical equations to be solved,cure for cancer to be discovered/invented etc etc.. A lot will be discovered; a lot will remain to be discovered.

    Science and technology are absolutely important to improve the lifestyle (and to support the artists!.

    A Homer’s creation is eternal and enduring. Law of gravity is also eternal and enduring, whether Newton discovered or not.

  • http://hindustantimes shan

    @blog readers et,al . To spare you the trouble to visit the wikipedia , here is some quote about APJ KALAM, “it has been reported that there is considerable demand in South Korea for translated versions of his books, As the project director he was HEAVILY INVOLVED in the devolopement of India’s first indigenous missile SLViii, He played a MAJOR PART in devoloping many missiles of india
    n April 29, 2009, he became the FIRST ASIAN (THAT INCLUDES JAPAN) to be bestowed the Hoover Medal, America’s top engineering prize, for his outstanding contribution to public service. The citation said that he is being recognised for making state-of-the-art healthcare available to the common man at affordable prices, bringing quality medical care to rural areas by establishing a link between doctors and technocrats, using spin-offs of defence technology to create state-of-the-art medical equipment and launching tele-medicine projects connecting remote rural-based hospitals to the super-specialty hospital. A pre-eminent scientist, a gifted engineer, and a true visionary, he is also a humble humanitarian in every sense of the word, it added.[12]

    On 13 September 2009, he was a recipient of the International von Kármán Wings Award .. In case you were wondering what this von karman is, IT IS BESTOWED BY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY (Caltech, as it is popularly known is harvard of engineering).HOPE THIS ELEVATES HIS. STATUS FROM A MINNOW AS SOME “KNOW ALL” bloggers have suggested..now for those who are tranfixed by the reach of poetry , here is a quote from LORD BYRON, THE GREAT ENGLISH POET. Writing to Annabelle Milbanke”THE TALENT OF ACTION OF MAN IN SCIENCE, IS TO BE PREFERRED TO ALL MERE DREAMERS OF ANOTHER EXISTENCE” BY WHICH HE MEANT POETS. It was if being a poet was not heroic enough for him , succumbing as poet did TO THE GLOOMY VANITY OF DRAWING FROM SELF. Now before some pointed heads start questioning Byron’s judgement , let me give you an example of his prodigial mind. , The family lawyer, Mr hanson suggested a matrimonial proposal for the warring but lordly neighbour.’s daughter to Byron AGED EIGHT.. To which Byron retorted “What Mr Hanson , CAPULET and MONTAGUE , INTERMARRYING?. Now before some “CRABS” thinks this is lifted from the book jacket , here is the full reference, : Byron In Love by Edna O Brien Pages, 13, 94

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    arey Shan

    Nobody is saying Kalam is not good or great.. That we cannot compare him to TAgore or Shakespeare…it is liek comparing chapathi to air…

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan
    The Hoover prize, to quote from your own quote which you picked from APJ Kalam’s website is a non-engineering prize. :-) It is given for services to humanity.. it is a political prize.
    Go through the list of past awardees; I for one do not recognise many notable scientists. No Feynman, no Dirac. It was won in 1998 by another notable scientist like our Kalam; his name is James Carter (notable scientist with significant acheivements in peanut farming; ROFL)

    http://www.asme.org/Governance/Honors/UnitAwards/Hoover_Medal.cfm

    Quote:To recognize great, unselfish, non-technical services by engineers to humanity.

    Established in 1929, this medal commemorates the civic and humanitarian achievements of engineers. It is conferred upon an engineer whose professional achievements and personal endeavors have advanced the well-being of humankind.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, What I have quoted is the CITATION, and if you read CAREFULLY , the last line “A pre-eminent scientist, a gifted engineer”, hardly a minnow by the criterion of this august institution AMERICAN SOCIETY OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERS. The Dirac is Paul Dirac, graduated from BRISTOL POLYTECHNIC , in UK EMIGRATED to Canada is a giant in theoretical physics, so is Feynman , whose full name is Richard Feynman , and received Nobel Prize for his work on Quantum Electrodynamics. .You trying to pass judgement on kalam is like school physics teacher trying to pass judgement on Dirac’s work which most likely will go above his head.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shan,
    the Hoover prize recognizes non-technical contributions.. as such the awardees are technical persons (engineers) – even Jimmy Carter was an engineer.

    So, being awarded the Hoover prize is not a recognition of your technical brilliance..
    I am not able to understand the point about the short biographical notes on Feynman and Dirac; my point about mentioning Feynamann and Dirac was to contrast the fact that their names were not among those awarded in the last 70 years but, folks like Jimmy Carter and APJ Kalam were on the list. Whatever be your arguments about Kalam’s scientific abilities, don’t quote the Hoover medal.
    I am not passing a judgement on Dirac or Feynmann- how can I? They are among the top minds of all time in physics; and, I do speak with some understanding of their work. Even mentioning Kalam in the same breath is ridiculous.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish , you are falling into the trap of circular argument. It is not the mettalic disc , it is the citation that recognises and boldly states that they (ASME) consider him PRE EMINENT SCIENTIST AND GIFTED ENGINEER, though in your opinion he is mediocre , minnow , and somebody with technical knowledge.,

  • Sam

    Islam is war–

    one more islamic scholar says it…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU_BczRk2wo&feature=player_embedded#!

    Anjum is not an illiterate person..
    he is an attorney..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    More islamic news..

    http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1119871

    Saudi Women vow to breastfeed their drivers

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    Look you are here with an agenda and do not want a dialogue but spoil the whole forum….
    some scholar said Islam is war …..how can you bring that here. so what is Christainity or any other relgion. look around you and you will see millions of example where crimes are committed. Look at what Hitler did. can you say that since hitler was a christian and therefore christianity is all about war crime murders rapes…….
    please do not spoil this forum…let it be informative

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    your tactic is “shoot the messenger”…

    instead of that, please tell what is wrong with the message given by esteemed Islamic scholars and Saudi muslim woman….

    M R Goswami Reply:

    Strange ways are of Islam in this world.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Web habits and searches from Islamic countries..

    http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.6575/pub_detail.asp

    hindblogger Reply:

    I beg to differ- no religion, faith and way of life is war. Even word ARMY is not war.
    This is game of few and very few understands this…we can talk **** but won’t burn calories to understand. This is how we all carried away SLOGANS raised by some party and this is exacty how we can execure killings and raping like 1947. All in name of God…

    @ Sam
    Criticism will not bring anything to India…all we Indians have done so far is fighting among ourselves and this is what some people want. Look back at history and we are doing this since ages…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    @hindblogger
    ==Criticism will not bring anything to India

    not all criticism is bad.
    criticism done in a right way, will lead to identfying the real issues and finding solutions.

    [Reply]

  • http://hindblogger.wordpress.com hindblogger

    This is planned exection and some muslim souls are also part of it. Dividation on lines of religion were never made in our part of the world. This hatred was never existed within us…this comes from outside and our own people nurtured it for domestic gains and now this has grown out of control.

    Muslim is a second citizen in India and this stature will remain so…unless new generation does not come forward to lead. Get rid of these OLD, SICK and exhasuted politicians and bring young, energetic , dreamy people….this is only way…otherwise I am sure we are living on edge of blasts, attacks, hatred and civil riots.

    [Reply]

  • Fia

    Shan Saab,

    Obviously that education is lacking something. Your view still remains skewed. And yes, it is not my job to illumine every ignorant mind, but this mohtarma will not spend my life apologizing to folks with half baked knowledge.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Fia(unquestionably the name is sonorous) motarma, Blimey, how many sleepless night Ithis Banda have spent waiting for the salvo, who many days i have been trawling through the blogs looking for that terse response , when finally I had given up there you are. I have created quite a following , here is an exampleShoeb K Reply:
    June 21st, 2010 at 8:14 am

    I agree with Shan that Zia should inspire Muslims instead of bitching and whining; let the whining be done by our secularists.
    My view is extreemely skewed in the direction of rationality, my background is surgery, and I know (have to know otherwise quite a few mortals will be in danger) a little bit about that organism which I have deal with in times of its distress. I do not have half baked knowledge , I am at the level of trying to gather the maida and water, kneading is way off , baking I cannot think about.Though some people have thought otherwise, here is an exampleSachin Reply:
    June 7th, 2010 at 4:27 am

    Your analysis is well articulated and if all is true it has given a lot of knowledge on the subject. there is another onePrasoon Choudhary Reply:
    June 7th, 2010 at 5:40 am

    Well said you must be a some kind of Scholar.These are response to my posting in response to Zia’s blog titled”Isarel needs a peace offensive”. Also I am a sinner through amd through having eaten beef and pork with relish though I dont great deal enjoy alcohol. You need not apologise about anything but keep coming back to these blogs and keep educating these ignorant mind , only a caveat , in the process there is a danger you like to switch from your entrenched position and cross over to the ideals of “Young Bengal” which was formed two hundreed years ago in calcutta.

    [Reply]

  • ram

    Now where the **** are the Muslim swine? Why no more fake chest-beating? Where are the ****** Human Rights organizations who think human rights to be an exclusive property of muslim terrorists and refuse to consider those killed by them as humans? Where is Arundhati Roy, CPI, Congress and other muslim cocksuckers? Islam is a pile of poop. All the claims of being a peaceful religion are nothing but taqiyya- the false propaganda technique taught by Muhammad to deceive the unsuspecting Kafirs.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Dekho O Diwane , tum ye kaam na karo, Ram Ka Naam Badnam Na Karo.

    [Reply]

  • Hibiki_2010

    If you want hate crime laws in Oz then we Americans demand them in Silicon Valley – for all the racism Indians do to white Americans every day there.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Harsh-Vikram/1109021514 Harsh Vikram

    Its a shame ure leaving HT sir. Loved ure writing, and ure honest,learned opinions on film. But i guess you’re too good for them.Please do continue this blog though..

    [Reply]

  • Ramesh Kumar

    SOME OF THESE EXPOSE HAVE SHIELDED THE GREATEST SCAM UNDER PM MMSINGH WITH HIS OWN SIGNATURE THE GREAT COAL SCAM.
    NOTHING WOULD HAVEBEEN MORE CONVENIENT TO CONGRESS THAN THIS.MEDIA ,NEWSPAPER HELPED .WHILE EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE SHOUTED AGAINST MMSINGH OR JINDAL ,CONGRESS BLESSED MEDIA FOUND A WAY OUT IN LESS SIGNIFICANT ISSUES.
    IN ANOTHER ISSUE ,WHILE REMEBERING BIGGEST HUMILIATION OF INDIA BY CHINESE,I HAVENOT SEEN A GOOD ANALYSIS FOR REASON S OF DEFEAT OR HOW POORLY WE ARE PREPARED EVEN TODAY FOR ANOTHER EVENTUALITY.
    CHINA IS PROCEEDING IN MANY WAYS.
    BUT WE HAVE A DISGUSTING PM ,WHO TALKS OF GDP ONLY.
    HE DOES NOT MIND IF HEIS NOT INVITED TO OPENING CEREMONY OF BEIJING OLYMPIC ,BUT SONIA IS.

    [Reply]

  • vittal

    Some of the politicians are like cockroaches who are to be extinguished if only this country can recover from the current hopeless situation.

    [Reply]

  • facebook

    What Indians need to do is to VOTE OUT corrupt politicians from any party they represent. It sure is a herculian task. The dissgust that exists amongst people of India against corrupt politicians HAS TO BE converted into votes against them in the next elections. It happened in Egypt and it can happen in India. The question is how to spread the message to the poorest of the poor and deep into
    the small villages. I hope the educated, technology-enabled urbanites use the mass media. ARVIND alone can not do it for YOU all unless he gets help otherwise the the Jagannath machinery available to the ruling party with unlimited funds will steamroll Arvind’s young sprout of an opposition party.
    PLEASE GET UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER AND HELP BUILD INDIA OF YOUR DREAMS.

    [Reply]

  • Anthonymuthu Xavier

    A few people enjoy, waste and pollute the environment to he detriment of all future generation. Natural resource is wasted in manufacture of goods not basically essential for human survival. Abuse of natural resources with the labor of the majority for the sensual satisfaction of the few leads the world to ultimate destruction, may be irreversible. Despite continuous warnings from science community and environmentalists against a bleak human future, greediness of man blinds the foresight.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/swaminathangeethamohan Swaminathangeethamohan Krishna

    WE NEVER REALISE UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE- BLIND TO FACTS AS EVER.

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/sheulibose Sheuli’s_Free_Tarot

    The greedy industrialists are not easily satiated. Their greed is immense. The people, like Muslims, Jats and Gujjars are producing children like there is no tomorrow. Massive scale destruction/death is inevitable. Many innocent like us may die, but so will many sex-hungry and devious communities will be eliminated. Thank for that..Don’t give any money to orphan and poor children..let them die. have no mercy..

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    a Reply:

    you are a hateful psycho. please go and die.

    [Reply]

  • Disgusted Desi

    Everyone knows that autorickshaws and tempos are some of the most polluting vehicles in India (both emissions as well as sound pollution). The govt sees no evil, hears no evil, smells no evil … all because they are paid heftily by the likes of Bajaj and other automakers and industrialists to not pass any anti-pollution legislation. In other cases, many small scale industries (like the tanning industry in Agra) are massive polluters but they represent a good vote bank. Sugar mills are another example … where the pawar family has most of the controlling interests.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/JohnDayal John Dayal

    Great reporting, and an excellent blog

    [Reply]

  • sukumo

    The author knows how to tell a story.

    [Reply]

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    Give me dignity, or give me death : They Call Me Muslim…