Israel needs to wage a peace offensive

Israel is a bully; however, they act in their self defense; constantly worried about, sometimes unnecessarily, about attack from its neighbors.

While Israel should and must change their approach; a lasting peace will be established if all the Arab countries agreed to Israel’s right to exist. Then and then only Israel will loosen its undemocratic and cruel grip on Palesyinians.

As of today, many Arab countries still have not accepted Israel’s right. To add insult to injury (to [palestinians), Egypt closed the border with Gaza — what dos one expect from Israel, if a Muslim country Egypt does not care about Palestinians?

And let us all keep this in mind — the 1967 war that created all these problems was started by Arabs. With all the negatives of israel (who generally hide under the cloak of “dmocracy”) , I really believe the problem can be settled if Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon ratify a treaty with Israel agreeing to the existence of Israel in their midst and creating a state for Palestinians.

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Akash Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 9:32 am

Another reason why the burka and veil should be disallowed:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Veiled-shock-Bride-turns-out-to-be-a-boy/articleshow/6018358.cms

Btw, the whole gaza thing was a big publicity exercise. The most surprising part of the whole thing is how stupid Israel can sometimes be. Just goes to show that you can have the largest number of PhDs/acre and still behave like a complete idiot. A nice piece in New York Times on this subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/opinion/06chabon.html?pagewanted=2&ref=global-home

I also think that we should resist the urge to discuss this problem at length. I doubt we can ever reach a reasonable conclusion. Both sides are equally silly, ignorant, and brutish. I am, for one, mightily sick of this people of the book theory. Why can’t we have a variant of Hinduism that collates all the prophets and gets us all ‘infidels’ in this people of the book club. I am sure some of the attacks by our Islamic brethren from across the border would cease if we do that.

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

@Akash, That is monotheism for you, no room for any other shade of opinion , no room for accomodation , in contrast to polytheism , that is why we have Ramkrishna Paramhansa , the mentor of swami vivekananda , whom the french intellectual Romain Rolland his greatest teacher. Ramkrishna said in Bengali “Joto Moth Tawto Puth”, roughly translated means the more the opinions or different thoughts will lead to more options or roads to any quest.

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Israel provided an alternative port for the aid ships to dock.
It is port of Ashdod in israel.
After unloading the things in that port, Israel was willing to transfer the material to Gaza.

The IHH organization (roots of Muslim Brotherhood) from Turkey was looking for confrontation instead of helping Gaza people.

If IHH real intention is to help gaza, then they should have unloaded their aid in Ashdod and make sure it reaches Gaza.

Instead most muslim organizations just hate a jewish state and constantly look for ways to pick silly fights.

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Peter Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

Sam, you may be correct that the flotilla could have unloaded their supplies at Ashdod and relied upon Israel to transfer them to Gaza…after Israel had determined what materials passed it’s inspection. You’re correct that this was a PR effort directed towards inciting confrontation between Israel and the IHH/Turkey. I would offer that it was no different than the non-violent effort led by Mr. Gandhi and his walk to the ocean where he made his own salt. There may be other protests he led that are more pertinent comparisons.

I disagree though that this action was “silly.”

If the Palestinian people have to fight for their freedom and to have their right to a state acknowledged and agreed to by Israel, it is far better for them to engage in creative acts of non-violence than in acts of terror. The actions of the ~700 detainees have wrought more damage to the state of Israel in the world’s eyes than the acts of martyrdom and terrorism by Palestinians. Not just in world opinion but in the cold calculations of the interests of states.

The fact remains that there is nothing wrong in confronting an “oppressor” non-violently and in demonstrating to one’s own people and the world the righteousness of one’s cause and the moral weakness of the oppressor. That the state of Israel oppresses the people of Gaza there can be no honest disagreement. The blockade and control over Gaza that it maintains makes it responsible for the human rights abuses committed and poor quality of life the residents of Gaza experience today in the name of punishing Hamas and controlling terrorism.

It is as equally abhorrent as was the blockade of Iraq and the effect it had upon millions of innocent people: collective punishment of the poorest and weakest of them for the leadership of Saddam Hussein.

One of the saddest aspects of this long-time conflict is that moderate opinion on both sides, the recognition of each party’s rights by the other, has been hijacked by extremists. I draw no distinction here between the Israeli and Palestinian/Muslim fanatics. Hatred and ignorance flourishes in each camp. Each time an accord is near agreement, one side or the other derails it with violence, leaving each side victimized once again. Peace agreements have been deliberately sabotaged by both those on either side seeking an advantage.

I wonder how Mr. Gandhi would be viewed by each side in this conflict. Were he an Israeli, his efforts to bring a non-violent end and justice would very likely make him a target of other Jews. Were he a Palestinian, how would Fatah or Hamas treat him? I suspect he would not be welcomed for formulating a non-violent plan of action that included the recognition of Israel’s right to exist. He (or she!) would be at great personal risk from both sides and from those who see no advantage to peace and concord between Israelis and Palestinians.

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 8:43 am

How about oppression of Christians in Egypt
(after izlamic arabs invaded them).
This is from an Egyptian christian:
==========
Sameh (Egypt), Feb 21, 2007 at 08:42

Egypt has embraced Christianity in the first century AC.

Egypt has been invaded 1400 years ago by the Muslim Arabs and spread Islam by the sword and pushed millions of Egyptian to convert to Islam by different financial or criminal ways.

Currently, Christians (Copts) in Egypt represent around 20% of the Egyptian population, totaling around 15.000.000 citizens.

The Christians of Egypt are suffering from large scale discrimination in jobs, salaries and basic human rights.

Christians in Egypt are prevented from any important post or position in the universities, Army, Police or Intelligence. Many what so-called Islamic companies do not allow Christians to work in these companies or to buy the companies shares.

We had suffered enough of hearing the insults every day in TV, newspapers and in the streets. Recently books published by Islamic theologists and financed by the Egyptian government said that according to Islam, Christians has to be killed; the Christian women and moneys are the right of Muslims and can be taken by Muslims, according to their holy book (Quran).

Lately in the street someone had insulted me as a pig because I am Christian. Last year someone in the street insulted my wife as a prostitute because she is not veiled (hair cover).

Several abuse cases and kidnapping of Christian women and islamization had been reported in Egypt lately.

The Egyptian constitution shall be amended next month to confirm and legalize the discrimination against the Christians by stressing on the Islamic law as the base of Egyptian constitution.

Kindly take an action against this new fascism/racism and discrimination from the Egyptian government and other Islamic groups in the country.

* Radical Islamic groups, like the Muslim Brothers, are free in Egypt to harass, intimidate, and threaten Christians.

* The Egyptian government fails to protect the Christian citizens. In many cases, the Egyptian government even cooperates with radicals against Christians.

Egyptian Christians (Copts) believe that Israel has the right to exist and to live in peace.

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John Denver, Ireland Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

Have you totally lost it? Comparing Hamas aides to M. K. Gandhi! You must be a nut!

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Nothing pervents muslims having close ties with Israel. Jews deserve land as it was even recongnized by our holy propher Muhammad(pbuh).

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@ShoebK and Zia. Zia your analysis is almost child like. Before you get too nostalgic about the UN hegemony in creating mandate, I suggest you read a majestic book called “The Arabs” by Eugene Rogan. This mandate or whatever was british just trying to get its share of flesh after the Paris Conference. When French demanded and got Syria and Lebanon(a bit like prophet asking to distribute the women captured after the war) british created and got an excuse to impose its presence and influence in Middle East. This is your so called mandate. British rightly tried to stop the exodus of jews flooding into Palestine. Before that the jews had annoyed the British by bombing the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, What jews had done in 1940’s is probably unprecedented in history . They just poured into palestine and drove palestenians from village after village , just like that all of a sudden one night. Just imagine the situation , at least bangladeshi refugees had India’s bosom , these people took small dinghys and tried to sail , many many sank and died. And the way jews are behaving now there will come a time when there wont be holocaust memorial day , but a holocaust celebration day. Then again there are honourable liberal jews who are highly critical of the state of israel, but they are neither influential nor large in number. Then again the issue may be far larger than the two warring states. It is the problem with Islam per se. It is like a dead weight that prevents any progress or any hope of “catching up”. Jewish religion can give Islam run for its money in its obscurantism , but the state of israel is secular and there is democracy. Unless you regress Islam into a quadriplegic(paralysed in four limbs) existence there is no chance of democracy to take over. Without democracy there wont be any flourishing of intellectual debate , and with it the scientific knowledge through which will come real power. And also notice the hypocrisy , the pakistani scums like hafiz sayeed , and the lot is hell bent on ensuring causing damage to India, how many words or deeds has he directed against israel. Also Zia as much you try to emphasise the ancestral linkage , neither the jews nor the christians have any interest or probably shudder at the facts. Also Zia before making that giant leap have you found out how your blood relations, the muhajirs are faring in Islamic ummah pakistan. You are too dark skinned for the punjabis and pathans. Also Islam being a civilization built on raw emotion and no reason(submission in other words, probably did serve them well , when there wasn’t great deal of reason based societies around:read modern science) so you expect the product of this civilization are people with nothing but raw emotion. Rather than trying to hijack planes and suicide bombs, ig they used GANDHIAN techniques and showed how one sided barbarity it is , then if the BRITISH EMPIRE could be dismantled , then Israel is a small fish. Then again you need this lower caste hindu convert zIA TO REPHRASE HIS SENTENCE AND say being a humanist and not say being a muslim, because if you are stuck in that rut of obscurantist dogma based approach to life then you will only be treated as a menace.

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Sachin Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 4:27 am

Your analysis is well articulated and if all is true it has given a lot of knowledge on the subject

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Prasoon Choudhary Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 5:40 am

Well said you must be a some kind of Scholar. It is very important that people all round the world must embrace change that are key values of modern society like democrat, secularism, freedom of speech etc. For this to happen it is very important to put the religion on back bench and think logically and treat every body as equal humans. The concept of brother hood in Islam must not be restricted to just the Muslims but must extend beyond, for this to happen people must loose identity based on religion, cast or region. Educated Muslims must not see west and America as wedging war against Islam, in fact they must first fight the religious extremist and Cleric who issue fatwa at drop of hat.

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Jaffer Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 5:45 am

Islam has better values but people misunderstood it, the word Jihad itself is not understood properly. There is good and bad in all religions, blaming religion won’t help much. With their rude behaviors the state of Israel is heading towards a diplomatic isolation and soon they will pay a huge price for their activities. Even the British gave back the lands which they won but Israel is not giving the 1967 lands back to the Palestine people, this is clear violation of UN charters. Having a lot of weapons alone will not help Israel, see in 2006 war they lost their nose with Hizbollah. This is the future for Israel’s war mongering mentality, if it wages war now then they will pay a huge price. Its better to choose the path of peace, give back 1967 lands to Palestine and create a state for them is the only viable solution for them now.

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Gopi Thomas Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 8:15 am

Is rael obviously has a set of problems. It ought to behave like a democracy and not a bully.

However, these other countries,and that too Islamic countries, are too eager to throw stones at Israel.

Pakistani journalists, politicians, and people gave a “hero’s welcome” to the pakistani participants in the fortilla. Ministers were in the forferont to garland and receive these “freedom fighters”.

None of these misnisters and leaders , neither the freedom loving journalists, showed up for the funeral of the 100m plus Ahnmadiyyas killed by the Pakistani Sunni Salafis.

Israel will continue to torture Muslims until Muslims get their act together. Who cares for Palestinians? Muslims definitely not. If they did, the problem would have been solved many years ago.

The only solution left for Palestinians is extremism. But how come there is never a suicide bombing in Israel? How come the so called extremists do not sneak in to Israel like Pakistani terrorists sneak into Kashmir? Is there a pact between Palestinian leadership and Israel?

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:48 pm

@Jaffer , the same delusion , as much Hizbollah did to Israel did million times more , perhaps you could pray hundreed times a day and Haz and Umrah all year round if that brings any Allah’s wrath and Israel is wiped out by Ebola Virus(a dangerous virus, no treatment) , then again hardly any chance palestanians will be spared, they are contagious. The ONLY option of palestenians is to accept gaza and west bank and give Jerusalem to Israel . When you are defeated when you dont matter , you got to accept reality , like germany and Japan did. It did not do any harm to Japan being so humiliated having your constitution written by Americans and the presence of Huge American army in your soil with all the problems like that happened with american bases in Phillipines(American GI’s raping local girls and out of reach of japanese jurisdiction).

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Omer Kahn Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

Thats what the Muslims will never do like japan – giving ur girls to the americans and making electronic goods – By the way there is lot of resentment in japanese people about this-

John Denver, Ireland Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

@Omer, yeah you can never make electronic or any other type of goods that are of any use to the Humanity. You can only make bombs and reproduce like rabbits to produce zombie suicide-bombers and plane hijackers! As far as giving girls to Americans is concerned, you people give even your cousins to one another and not even other Muslims!

Need clarification on the statement – “Anti-Semitism is anti-Islamic”.

Are you saying that “Anti-Semitism is anti-islamic but anti-christ is not” ? Or “Anti-Semitism is anti-islamic but anti-hinduism is not” ?

Why do you feel the need to claim that being against jews or jewish religion is anti-islamic and dont feel the need to say this in support of other religions ?

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As I read this further, I get some more interesting aspects to your thought process –

” I will always defend Israel’s right to exist because there is no way we can go back in history and turn the clock ”
- This is a great example where someone is actually an extremist in thought but is forced to accept reality.

Its like saying that I will defend the corrupt politicians right to exist because there is no way we can get rid of them without violence.

Are you saying that Israelis dont have the right to live in that part of the world, but they are powerful so others should live with it ? Thats different from saying that no one has the right to evacuate them from that part of the world. What exactly is your stand on the Israel conflict ?

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read about the trans jordan treaty of 1922 churchill was foreign secy and at the stroke of the pen gave four fifths of gods promised land to the arabs in 1948 isreal was born in 1 day read isaiah66 8 predicted thousands of years earlier and britain supplied arms to the arabs even though the jewish brigade fought alongside britain Now since britain went against gods plans the br empire collasped you can find a lot of info from dereck prince book the promised land also the covent was given to isaac and jacob whose name was changed to isreal and not to ishmael son of hagar who was maidservant of sarah moses brought the people to isrel but it was joshua who entered and subdued the people living there ie philistines now known as palistines remember when india my country got inderpendence muslims believe it was ismail who abraham was goining to sacrifice but it was issac as he was sarah son the muslims gave abhram a muslim name ie ibrahim and isac as ishak i an taught not to worship the heavenly bodies but muslims do everything according to the moon and the catholics the sun these are false religons

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mugan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 8:34 am

A couple of days ago a journo in Australia wrote on the issue beginning with the statement that Israel is currently ruled by an ‘unprincipled thug’ who is impervious to any kind of human decency. To think that Israelis who have full knowledge of this person with a previous stint as PM ousted because of corruption allegations could elect him again states how much they as a whole believe in this ‘thug’ and the cruel attitude to the Palestinians. To make matters worse Obama is not just a lame President but is equally indifferent to the sufferings of the Palestinians as well to what is right or wrong in international law or conduct. President Carter one of the most decent of American Presidents stood on his principles, regardless of whether such would affect his election chances. He still continues to champion decency in human relations,human rights everywhere ,fairness and justuce, and enjoys the respect and affections of almost all people around the world. He never fooled people with words and got them to believe him and raised their hopes.Truly a human being toiling hard to walk God’s path.

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

All religions are false and jewish is the mother of all falsehood , earth created in seven days and all that ****.

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ramesh Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

Why isnt any one talking about Egypt a brotherly country blockading Gaza,not allowing any aid,and even Jordan doing the same .Both these countries are close neighbours and have experienced the Palastinian way of doing things and know that peace would never work.

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ram Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:20 pm

Brother, please don’t abuse other religions. The only satanic cult worth abusing is Izzlam.

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Sam Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 5:21 am

the only exception is Izlam.

Among the major religions, only izlam’s founder was a slave owner.

no other religion has that distinction..

Not Jesus, Moses or anyone else is a slave owner.

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DUDE Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

all abrahamic religions are fake!

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The problem is not with Israel, but with the arabs and their evil ideology which is creating problems for everyone. Islam is the root cause of all evil on the planet and as Samuel Huntington said in his famous “Clash of Civilizations” book, “Islam has bloody borders”, which is the result of the expansionist ideology of islam. They want to get more and more land and kill and destroy other civilizations. Thankfully the world recognizes this and has come together to counter this evil menace.

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Mougals did over 300 years of genocide in India. Thereafter, the Britishers did over 200 years of genocide in India They murdered, torchered, raped, looted, plundered, stole all of India’s wealth & made it a begger. What is India doing about it? Nothing.

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This is a one-sided argument totally ignoring the violence pepetrated by the Hamas in Israeli territory and the humanitarian aid arrangements already in existence in Israel for sending it to the Gaza area.

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The Jewish people should have never been in Palestine in the first place. Claiming some place where 2000 years ago they had a civilization is too far fetched. They should have been given place in countries like USA and Australia instead of forcing an entire population to vacate their own lands to accommodate essentially a European people who were hated by their own Christian neighbors for ‘blood on thy hands’ reasons. Another example of western racism, this time with other white people for which an entire region and possibly the world is suffering.

But now I guess Israel will remain, in which case it should be a two nation solution with the Palestinians suitably compensated by Israel’s , the Germans (the main culprits) and the other Europeans the anti Semites (who took that opportunity to themselves get rid of the Jews). With a small state the Israelis should also cancel their historic right to return policy for all Jews. That only forces them to take some more land from the Palestinians.

Zia I don’t understand why the people of the book alone are being counted as brothers. I am sure Islam allows its believers to accept all good people as brothers !!!!

As far as India is concerned, as long as we make lousy armaments and we need high tech electronics and agriculture techniques from Israel we should always have good relations with them. And of course with the Palestinians on a humanitarian grounds. In fact having leverage with the Israelis will also be good for our Palestinian friends.

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Sam Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 10:17 am

There are 57 Islamic countries, which are proud to be islamic.
they look with contempt any kuffar’s unless they are dhimmis.

Why can’t the world accept a single, tiny Jewish country ?

Jewish roots to Jerusalem go back much longer than any other religion there.
Arabs only went to current day israel in 6-7th century.

Jewish people were there for than 3000 yrs.

They have more claim than islamists today.

do you know Jewish people lived in Mecca/Medinah before Mo banished them ?
So would you agree that Jews can come back and live there ? before izlam banished them in a religious apartheid…

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the other side Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 1:00 am

Israel had other alternatives to stop that ship…now days it is easy to talk about violence that this will be nothing but an incident, a bad incident and lots of apologies but…Israel decided to use the force in the most violent way: a deadly manner and the question is what is there to do after this kind of reaction from Isarel, can we just accept an apology, should there be some international trail for these crimes what?..what can be done so this doesn’t happen so easily and gets forgotten…? what?

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shan Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 2:03 am

@the other side, The fact is the world order is based on “might is right”. Spare a thought about TIBET how many resolutions in UN have you seen in parliament. Same with palestine, The Jewish lobby in America, has american Govt in its pocket. And to be honest as an Indian one needs to be little cicumspect. Remember during apartheid India sticking its neck out in boycotting south africa, what happens as gullible as we are Mandela in presence of Vajpayee, screams about injustice in Kashmir. And injustice indeed when each kasmiri gets SIX times per head of each bihari gets as central assistance.Same here as much we abhorr the inhuman treatment the palestinians are receiving , the same ummah from across the border comes to cause 26/11.

Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 5:58 am

Why Izlamists go on rampage on percieved insults to islam ?

Why izlamists selectively misquote the verse 5:32 ?

answers:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/islam_peace.html

DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 7:53 pm

educate your kids and never ever let your daughter marry a muslim!

Mickeyrat Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

Someone reconvert… pleaaaaaase….

this DUDE is desperate.

Gopi Thomas Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

Vikram is right in the sense that the stae of israel should not have been sanctioned in Palestine. Holocaust was perpetrated by Germans, not Palestinians. The death camps were in Europe. so, it should have been created in Europe, or in the liberators’ (US, Russia, UK) countries. Both US and Russia had (and have) vast uninhibited lands.

But it happened, and it is 65 years since the state was formed. A solution for Israel and Palestine to exist side by side has to be found out. Israel should stop its arrogance and the Arab countries should accept Israel in their midst.

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Indian Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 9:29 pm

You are reflecting Michael moore’s ideas!

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DUDE Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

@ VIKRAM!

IF thats the case then INDIA should reclaim all its lands and convert all muslims back to its ancestral religion! far fetched my ***!

even though judaism is fake aswell, your argument in that it is 2000 years far fetched is rubbish! if you or the people of india and the true persians had any sense then ……. the masses would group together to reclaim their lands freee of islam!

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Quite balanced article – appreciate the author’s objectiveness.

Leave aside the religion coloring the discussion – one has to appreciate these guys for their bravery and at times trigger happiness. Israel has a population of 7.5 Mn (Delhi’s population alone is 14 Mn) of which 76% are jewish and 16% muslim – almost like the Indian mix – yet they survive successfully in a region surrounded by bitter enemies (imagine having 10 Pakistan’s around you).

They sure sound like the “chosen people” from what they have accomplished since 1967.

I have a question for Mr. Zia Haq (or for that matter any muslim) – why do Muslims worry only about Muslim lives and “we muslims” ? Are non-Muslims so haram ? I don’t see Christians talking about Christian lives being lost or Hindus or Buddhists taking notice only if their co-religionist are in pain. They all feel the pain when “human lives” are lost – religion is secondary.

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

@Rajneesh , that is Kuttar Islam for you.

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ram Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

Balanced article my foot! Are you joking or have you smoked marijuana?

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Zia, there you go again with another half cooked idea. Israel should make peace with people, who have been chanting death to Israel since its birth? It is good that you are talking about peace now because Israel is capable of kicking some a**es in the neighborhood. I think the hard ball tactic with Hamas has worked and it is time for Hamas to be good boys and let Westbank Palestinians to deal with Israel. Yes, that would yield results!
I am surprised to see Turks getting involved in the conflict while ignoring their own backyard Kurdish problem. Did not Turks kill some millions Armenians in the past and have failed recognized the genocide?

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This is getting really interesting…

Flotilla Ship to Israeli Navy:

“We’re Helping Arabs Go Against the US, Don’t Forget 9/11 Guys”

‘Go Back to Auschwitz…”

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ

also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

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Israel is the most effective nation on earth to deal with terrorists and their supporters masquerading as activists and humanitarians. The smuggling of arms and rockets into Gaza for use against Israel has got to be stopped. Sooner or later, the people of Gaza will realise that it is Hamas and NOT Israel which is the problem. Till then, they will have to suffer the consequences of Hamas’s adverse actions.

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ram Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 5:55 am

Oh, if only Indian politicians would stop mortgaging the motherland for Muslim votes and follow Israel’s example!

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good article, but, a few point were not discussed. Israel had agreed to let the EU monitor aid flowing into gaza & Egypt monitor its border so that no arms flow into gaza. The EU fled not leaving anyone responsible to check arms flow into gaza. Hence Israel had to revert and they have always said(bluntly) they will not allow any aid flow that has any aid that could harm Israel in any way , but, they also said ANYTHING they reject can go thru UN monitoring and they have no problem with that.
Also, between Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns. SO DO YOU WANT ISRAEL TO LAY DOWN AND DIE AFTER THE HOLOCAUST? also they travel ship which was attacked by the british on way to israel.
Why is no one talking about Egypt who is doing the same kind of blockade on their side although there are hundreds of tunnels built to smuggle in arms on that border?
How many rockets etc. have been fired upon india from pakistan, if there was even ONE you know what can happen.
Also remember that Palestine received a gift from Israel when they were defeated and were packing to leave the area which they have due to a major error (called humaniterian) by Moshe Dayan allowing palestanians back.

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ram Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 5:57 am

That is what Islam teaches- unbelievers should die, peacefully!

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http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/19-nadeem-f-paracha-the-reactionary-republic-660-hh-04

Here’s a question: How come whenever there’s a drone attack (in which most of those killed generally are extremists), or a case of perceived obscenity or blasphemy surfaces, street corners are at once filled with burqa-clad women and bearded men chanting slogans like ‘Death to infidels’? But none of these fine, sensitive Muslims can be seen protesting when there’s an attack on innocent civilians —Ahmadis or others — by the extremists?

Where do they vanish? Isn’t the gruesome and inhuman exhibition of violence and coercion so gleefully demonstrated by monsters like the Taliban and their twisted sectarian allies akin to a moral sin and misdeed far graver than what my loud burqa-clad sisters and bearded brothers are always agitating against? Of course it is.

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

@Sam that is beleivers for you , a mass of bigotted , demented people full with ignorance, arrogance and hypocrisy.

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THANK YOU

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The crux of the mater is Israel’s right to exist not accepted by Hamas in the light of their scriptures.”Do not trust,do not befriend and wajib al qitel[fit to kill] Any treaty or truce is broken when their purpose is served that is to regroup or recieve arms from the supporting axis,for another attack.The other arab lands know that Hamas will never make peace with the jews,and there for they have distant themselves from Hamas.Palastinians have been forced to leave other arab states because they are not wanted there simpley because the are a bad influence.Many arab states have relations with Israel.America has more palastinians as their citizens than any other country.This is the legacy of the scriptures which is desired to be followed ,as it was done by wiping out the antire race.see the statements of their present day leaders,wanting anhilation of all jews.Only a reintepration of the message in the light of plural and mordern world can save the situation.

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ram Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

Betrayal and backstabbing is what Islam teaches.

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Ankita Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

just shut up Mr.Ram.
What do u know about islam.
Talking all ****
first expand ur knowledge about the subject understand and then speak
read beyond ur narrowmimdedness.

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ram Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 2:04 pm

Hey, babe! Chill out, let the pot you are smoking wear off! And then open your eyes and look around. You will understand the dark underbelly of religions. But of all religions, Islam is the vilest. Do one need to do more to know about Islam than to read up the Koran and Hadiths? I have done that. And Muslims all around the world are giving daily examples of Islamic principles. Some websites have chronicled their noble deeds on a daily basis. You can even talk to your Muslim friends about terrorism, 9/11, 26/11 et cetera. And see for yourself how many of them are in denial and believe in absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theories. They always brush aside things like terrorism they are uncomfortable discussing, give some sweeping-under-the-carpet statements like terrorists are misguided and pretend to go into some kind of suspended animation or reverie (or may be an epileptic attack) when confronted with the verses of Koran explicitly preaching violence upon non-believers in Islam. First learn about Islam and then open your ignorant mouth.

ram Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 2:07 pm

Sorry for the typing mistake- read ‘Does’ instead of ‘Do’ in the fourth sentence.

See the collective psyche in Pakistan is trained to ignore the pain and anguish of the ”others”and the urge to relate to the arab ancestry which demands hatered for the arch enemy,and hence the out cry at Israel and a tacit approval on the attacks on the Ahmedis [the others]A muslim when he calls another muslim[who calls himself a muslim]kaffer he himself becomes non muslim kaffer stated in the message.The MAKER wants diversity in his creation who are we to tell him otherwise

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shan Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

It is not only Ahmedias in pakistan , there is Bahai faith in Iran , who are hounded out, where do Bahai faith find its full expression , yes in Kuffer India , more specifically in Delhi in that majestic Lotus shaped temple.

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DUDE Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 6:33 pm

Peace to all Real Ancient Faiths!

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OH MY GOD!

absolute rubbish from Mr zia Akbar!

Why dont you focus all your energies into converting out of ISLAM????? and become what your ancestors were! free people of the earth! as oppose to followers of fake devil worshipping spawned from arabia?

why do you insult jews?

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when will India enter the FOOTBALL WORLD CUP?

WHY is it a country of a billion people can not put together a good football team?

china can do it!

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APilgrim1 Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 6:38 pm

“The blockade is aimed at Hamas, but it is hurting ordinary Gazans gravely, resulting in an enormous humanitarian crisis. The blockade is untenable and unsustainable.”

Completely disagree. A blockade is completely sustainable and completely tenable to the country of Israel if it denies a violent foreign force from continuously arming and attacking Israeli civilians and prevents the need for a ground assault (where civilians will be harmed much more frequently than with a naval blockade). Any country with a naval force would do the same to defend their citizens from rocket/mortar/suicide/improvised explosive attacks. It’s pointless to single out the Israeli navy from any other country with a navy in the world.

However, taking sides for or against a country for defending itself through the use of an arms blockade isn’t really the issue here – despite what IHH, Hamas, puppet activists, or any violent fascist groups want to railroad the world to think. Blockade or not, the violence won’t end until everyone concedes the right of Jewish people (not even the Jewish faith) to exist somewhere in the world. And that won’t happen as long as people are being indoctrinated from birth to hate Jews and blame them for their problems.

Same old story, whether it’s in Europe, North America, or the Middle East – nothing good has ever come from religious or anti-religious fascism. We, as humans, just have a hard time learning from history and turn a blind eye to it in the favor of conflict and choosing sides.

If we really wanted to see an end to this conflict, we’d eliminate the groups that are indoctrinating the hate into future generations and stop blaming things like naval blockades for the never-ending violence…

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shan Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 2:09 am

When cricket will be consigned to dust bin given the recent performance . And also we need a culture of football which apart from two states west bengal and goa and some northeast staes does not exist.

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John Denver, Ireland Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 10:46 pm

See the shrewdness of Islamic Mullahs like Zia! The whole world should run peace campaigns and hug the Muslims. While Muslims would either stab them in the back or blow them up! Now why do they demand such foolhardiness on our part? Because Quran says that the only religion worth being on earth is Islam, rest all must perish or be conquered or annihilated by Muslims! Israel should organize iftaars for Hamas and let them freely launch rockets over the Jews and ‘drive them into the sea’! What bigots!

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Off topic I know but just wanted your take on it;

What do you think China would do if Islamic terrorists hit chinese home soil?

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shan Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 12:01 am

The chinese as you know have bizarre taste, like tiger’s penis is quite sought after delicacy , perhaps terrorist balls stir fry will add to their menu.

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ram Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 11:55 pm

Ha ha ha!

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Apart from ALL of TRUE INDIA and Persia, Indonesia Needs to reclaim its rightful, Hindu and Buddist religion!

These islamic crusaders have wrecked the worlds of its true native religion! Only for it to whine and moan for more land!

Muslims of INIDIA, PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH, IRAN AND INDONESIA convert back to your ancestral religion!

WAKE UP

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 11:29 am

Dude—
other than writing on this blog, what are you doing..
if not it is just like “barking dog does not bite..”

stop barking and start biting.

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DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

@Sam

and what do you suggest?

what are you doing about it?

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Sam Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 3:08 am

email me at sam_sc95051@yahoo.com for further details.

DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

here guys and gals! check this link out;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUau7vDeJs

check the comments of a particular mr “mosharma134″ …….using a dubious name of course!

THE point is the views of this particular K.N.O.B! is TYPICAL of majority of ISLAMIC MUSLIMS!

wake up and convert to your ancestral religion! they laugh at all indians and non muslims! and being ecstatic at the fact they created two seprate muslim nations from INDIA! WELL four if you include afghanistan and indonesia!

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DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

click on view all comments and scroll down…………….to find him

Akash Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

dude,
check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hveeMDC6Dro

Akash Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 9:13 am

DUDE,
You forgot Maldives…If you don’t slow down, I fear you may die of exhaustion.

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here check this site:

http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html

shameful muslims!

why does india and its people not wake up to what has happened to the great empire!?

resurrect your ancestral religion! become free of islam!

they izlamified persia, turkey, arabia, indonesia and tried to izlamify INDIA only for them to break it up to create pakistan and bangerstan!

afghanistan was inida!

wake up reclaim your lands and religion convert out of islam!

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all brown and oriental muslims, learn your HISTORY! find out how your ancestors were forced to convert!

stop following a terror religion! ISLAM IS NOT peaceful! look what happened to your ancestors!

dont be ignorant! wake up! your blood is not islamic!

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 6:03 am

Conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques

Ka’aba, located in Mecca, was the first non-Muslim sanctuary to be used as a mosque; this was done by Muhammad himself after he conquered Makkah in January 630.

Time to liberate Kaaba ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques

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an add on to this debate. the IHH organization of Turkey is actually secretly involved in supporting Islamic terror all over the world. just check this out
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2010/06/israeli-action-against-so-called-freedom-flotilla.html

read the truth behind the Freedom Flotilla and the IHH.

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Paritosh Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

no doubt that Israel’s action was justified

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 11:25 am

Israel can learn from

Mohd, the Lord of torture

http://newstime.co.nz/sharia-law-punishment.html

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oz Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

Israel definition of terrorist is is whoever disagrees with Israelis a terrorist, but when they say so. You don’t have to cause terror, kill anybody, or otherwise participate in any act that knowingly result in “terror” or death. Moreover, Israels definition is subject to change on an hourly basis. If you are resisting Israelis on a ship in international waters then you are terrorist. But 12 hours later when you have been taken to a prison in Israel, bloodied and bruised, then you are not a terrorist – therefore can be “deported”. Israel also has definitions for “war”. War is a conflict between two nations, and is subject to the Geneva Conventions, if you are a signatory nation – and Israel is. Israel is neither at war with Palestine, since Palestine does not exist as far Israel is concerned (they are just a bunch of terrorists) nor does Israel honor any part of the Geneva Conventions even if it was at war Palestine.

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 11:05 am

Jihad against infidels is justified.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/national/exmajors-loyalties-embody-jihad-woes-860

Pakistan army major involved in attack against Sri Lanka Cricket team.

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A recent email doing rounds in Pakistan is telling people to kill ahmedis and rid the land of the pure forever.Why is nt aban seeked for the same .There is no secular ism amongs their own kind let alone the others who are simpley ignored.Pakistan a creation of two nation theory has failed for the muslim nation and a blessing in disguise for the ” Indian” nation.Going back to the arab fundamentals,and not reforms has messed up their social fibre.But same is true of Turkey which has modernized but slowly creeping back to hardline beliefs,and in the process seeking their Ottoman days glory of being the spokesman of the muslim world.Iran is slowly and steadily failing in the same experiment.A collective reinterpratation of the basics is the only answer.

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Sam Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 1:34 am

>a blessing in disguise for the ” Indian” nation

how is it so?

in muslim mind it is triumph.
they severed a portion of historically hindu lands and made it entirely 100% muslim land.

they see success everywhere.
next step, make this work in different parts of india.

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ramesh Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

Look at it this way,all the hardliners and thick heads left on their own.Those remained were manageable and had and have even today to see the folly of things in the land of the pure,thus realize and become tolerant and learn to live and let others live

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Sam Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 3:08 am

if the current “tolerant” people turn intolerant

would you further give them more land ?

in that case why didn’t congress insist on all Muslims leaving to Pakistan ?

would that have been better ?

@omar kahn(actually khan), lot of muslims have been raped and killed by american GI ’s in Iraq, and they were punished if any by the americans not by any islamic caliphate. Also in that same japan thousands of muslims will sell their mother to get an entree in that country, in fact there are loads of pakistani working illegaly. Also japan is a country that is revered for its progress that is why when its emperor died there was a beeline among islamic countries to attend the funeral. I do not any enthusiasm for any state funeral in any islamic country , like death of khomeini. The fact is without oil islamic countries will soon stand for reactionary ideology , regressive social order , misogyny , obscurantism and terrorism which it is now anyway.

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Shan has a problem with Islam. Why do you hate that religion so much? How do you manage to live with so much hatred? Are you happy after all?

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shan Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 10:20 pm

@mickeyrat, I have problem with every religious dogma, and the texts, I have profound interest and liking for all . the festivals . Islam stands out because this is only current religion that will not allow any counter argument , it will stand in the way of science and rationality, and it will coerce the state and submit it to fall in line to preserve its total control. and oh yes it is incredibly vicious and violent towards secular thought and institution. Do you think this is an unreasonable assesment.

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Sam Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 3:11 am

Why does Allah and Mo and islamists hate all others ?

Why do they hate their own muslims if they want to leave Islam ?

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well, Israel has lots of faults; they have been really bad to Palestinians.

However, none of the Islamic countries, except may be Indonesia and Turkey (I do not consider UAE, Bahrain etc as countries) has any right to criticize Israel, when their own records are shameful.

And Pakistan — they sanctioned killing of minorities through their constitutional amendmend in 1976 by Zia Ul Haq , through his “blasphemy laws”.

It seems Muslim countries and Msulims do not want to live for today. They only care about life after death.

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Mickeyrat Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

Oh really? What are the records of UAE and Bahrain?

And which country do you stand for? what are its records?

Let’s talk who wants to live today later.

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Raju kurien Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 1:35 pm

Mickyart

What I meant was UAE, Bahrain etc are not “countries” from a geopolitical and demographics persp, just oil driling centers .. few locals and lots expatriates.

And the remaining OIC countries do not have any higher moral ground to stand on as far as Palestine is concverned. Israel is bad; OIC, esp Arab countries have been worse to PAlestinians. Egypt blocked the Gaza border. KSA doesnt care ahoot other than perpetuating this holocaust. Jordan cannot take any more of them. the list goes on.

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DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 6:31 pm

who needs the laws of arabia or the 10 commandments from moses……

when we have THE LAWS OF MANU!

WHY DID STUPID HINDUS CONVERT? WHY DID THEY NOT FIGHT THIS GREAT OPPRESSION of islam this fake arabian magic dust spawned from a greater magician than hudini?

all brown muslims wake up ……..and convert back to your ancestral religion! your ancestors were forced! don’t belive this rubbish that you were born into islam so you will follow it! you were not born into it! your ancestors were not i repeat not muslim! islam goes against all this that are beautiful!

islam is not peace!

Mr Zia Haq please convert back to your ancestral religion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wake up my friend!

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S Singh Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 8:20 pm

@Dude

Slow down man.. Nobody is going to reconvert en masse. You should focus on getting people (MUslims) educated and make them true participants in our nation’s progress. Unless amass conversuion happens, any individual converstee will be killed by their fello wMuslims..

So, you work on something that will have results..No more talks about reconversion..,

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DUDE Reply:
June 8th, 2010 at 8:54 pm

Im sorry Mr S SIngh, protector of the HINDU faith……….

the bigger picture is muslims have devised this notion plot to take the whole earth as one big muslim world from the offset! people and nations have been fooled! countless times!

yet they are still at it! ……. they do not tolerate any other religions and most of all these brown fake muslims that had ancestors of the true religions of india disregard them without remorse they slate them, yes their own blood they speak foul of them all the time!

they alll have been brainwashed by the mogol tragedy that brought its dictatorship to inida and who ransacked iran!

so as you say mass conversions wont happen………but at least it may wake them up to leave the terror cult that is islam.

peace

I think it is the muslims who need to transform their aggression into a peace offensive.For to long deafening, hollow claims ”of peace” have been made by so many.It is high time they prove what they say and mean by honest action that their beliefs are truely peace based.Jews are very few and have seen lot of pain and anguish in their past,A peaceful gesture would suprise them and certainly win them over and a compromise certainly would be reached.They have lived peacefuly together before.

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DUDE Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

ERM nooooooooo!

all brown muslims need to re-convert back to their ancestral religion!

peace will be bestowed upon them instantly!

how they ravaged out lands and raped our women!

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The reason all of today’s Muslims are terrorists and not soldiers is that whenever a muslim country or a group of muslim countries has fought a war (against Israel, India), it has been ground to dust.

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S Singh Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 10:55 pm

Well, wars, conquest etc is neither here nor there. It follows the ebbs and downs of history. There were big Muslim empires -Ottoman, moghul etc..

The Muslim issue is one of total “inwardness”. They should learn to adapt and collaborate; modern world is doifferent from what it was hundreds of years ago. Radical Muslims want to go back their Prophet’s days. Moderate and peaceful voices of Sufi, Ahamadiya, Ismaeli, bohra etc is suppressed and (killed) by Salafis who are on the quest for purity in Islam.

At this rate, the last man will follow Dude’s plea and convert!

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Sam Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

Singh,
Why dont you see the issue from Muslim perspective ? instead of callinf for “adapt and collaborate”..

You fail to see it with their eyes.
You will only be effective if you see it that way.

in their eyes, they are winning (new converts, new lands, new sharia compliant laws, new mosques, new gulf money, new tv channels….)

tell me why they should adapt, when they are growing in population..

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Sam Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 5:18 am

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4365.htm

We suggested that they convert to Islam and be saved, or pay the jizya poll tax, or else, we would wage war against them. This does not constitute aggression, because we are defending the borders of the Islamic state. We are commanded to enjoin people to worship Allah. We are commanded to enjoin the creatures to worship their Creator, to save whoever wants to be saved from worshipping slaves so that they will worship the Master of Slaves, and bring them from the injustice of the other religions to the justice of Islam, from the narrow straits of this world to the spaciousness of the world to come. That is the mission of every Muslim in this life.

After every well-publicized major terrorist attack, Islamic apologists appear in the mainstream media, typically claiming that Islam is a religion of peace. To support their assertion, Islamic apologists often quote a famous line from the Koran’s verse 5:32. This famous line is actually only a small part of the verse, and is not even a complete sentence. Here is the line, as it is usually quoted, clipped and cropped, by apologists:

“…whosoever killeth a human being… it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind…”

Well, so far, so good. It appears to be a universal proclamation that all human life is highly valuable, and that murdering one person would be a terrible crime – like murdering all of humankind. But as we will see, appearances and apologists can be deceiving! To get a better understanding of the origins of this verse and its intended meaning in the Koran, let’s go through the complete verses 5:32-37 (Pickthall’s translation), starting with 5:32:

5:32: “For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.”

See Ibn Kathir’s interpretation of 5:32 at http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13723.

I will present evidence that (1) the good part of 5:32 – the part that sounds like a prohibition against murdering any innocent human being – is taken from pre-Islamic sources, and will show (2) that the omitted parts of 5:32, when included, change the meaning dramatically, actually permitting killing of non-Muslims in a wide variety of circumstances.

(1) The good part of verse 5:32 does derive from earlier sources.

In context, the decree doesn’t apply universally to all peoples. The verse refers to the Israelites in Biblical history. The verses just preceding 5:32 discuss the story of Cain and Abel. It is almost certain that the good part of the verse 5:32 is actually of Jewish origin, long predating Mohammad and the Koran. This excerpt, discussing the decree’s origin, speaks for itself:

“When we turn to another Jewish record – the Mishnah Sanhedrin, we find the link between the story and what follows:

‘We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth” (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.’
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

“Here is a passage from the Mishnah! The Mishnah is a Jewish commentary on the Torah. How did a Rabbi’s commentary make its way into the Qur’an and be quoted as word from Allah? Simple, Muhammad had heard these teachings from the Jews, and repeated them later as he recited ‘revelation’.

“Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 4:10, an ingenious Rabbi invented the supposition that all Abel’s offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications. Clearly Muhammad had no knowledge of the source of the theory set out in the Mishnah but, in hearing it related, simply set out the Rabbi’s suppositions as the eternal decree of God! Just think, some Jewish Rabbi’s thoughts now are comprised in the Qur’an!” –http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Sources/cain.html

This evidence makes it extremely likely that Mohammad (or whoever produced the words for this part of the Koran) did plagiarize or appropriate this quoted commentary of a rabbi. Given that this is a rabbi’s commentary, not the words of God or Allah as conveyed by a prophet, the divine authenticity of this part of 5:32 is all but discredited.

(2) When the omitted parts of the verse are included, the meaning of the verse changes, and permits the killing of non-Muslims under many circumstances.

Now, the argument a defender of Islam might make here, after reading the above excerpt, is “So what? Islam and Judaism have a common source, Allah. It was Allah that guided the rabbi in his commentary, and then guided the prophet Mohammad with a more ‘correct’ version.” (For this interpretation to be acceptable to Islam, one must not assume that the rabbi was a partner to Allah, but simply a believer guided by Allah.) However, this more “correct” version, intended for Muslims, has an addition not found in the earlier source. That main addition is the “corruption in the earth” exception. (We don’t need to deal with the exception for manslaughter here, for this discussion).

Killing someone for “corruption in the earth/land” is permitted (see 5:33). “Corruption in the land” refers to the words and/or actions that come into significant conflict with Islam. Some people have previously commented on this glaring problem with 5:32, e.g., see http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/001351.html. Nevertheless, most people who cite the cropped quote seem to have little concern about what the verse actually says. This is not a trivial matter. Interpreted by Muslims, the verse deals with matters of life and death!

The Koran says that the presence of disbelievers causes confusion and corruption in the land, and therefore Muslims must join together to oppose them (8:73). Ibn Kathir interprets 8:73 to mean that if the Muslims do not join together to protect themselves and their religion from the disbelievers, then “(…there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great corruption), meaning, if you do not shun the idolators and offer your loyalty to the believers, Fitnah will overcome the people. Then confusion [polytheism and corruption] will be rampant, for the believers will be mixed with disbelievers, resulting in tremendous, widespread trials [corruption and mischief] between people.” http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20667. (Parentheses and [brackets] in original). Note that fitnah is “‘Trial, testing.’ A term referring to antagonism toward individual Muslims at Islam’s beginning. Now it is used to refer to threats to the health of the state.” http://www.answers.com/topic/fitnah. It can refer to civil strife, the presence of disbelievers, disbelief, or the drawing of Muslims away from Islam and into disbelief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna. “Oppression” refers to any words, actions, or institutions that go against, or impede, the full unrestricted practice of Islam (Abul Kasem discusses oppression further: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem51205.htm).

Let’s continue….

5:33 “The only reward for those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom…”

See Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of 5:33 here: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751.

Those who wage war against Allah/Mohammad and/or cause corruption in the earth will be killed, or crucified, or significantly dismembered (to the point of being permanently disabled), or banished (or imprisoned). (The severity of the penalty would depend on the judged severity of the transgression against Islam). In addition, they will be punished in hell (5:33). Allah punishes those who “make mischief in the earth,” subjecting them to a “painful doom” (2:10; 2:11-14).

Corruption in the land, or corruption/mischief on earth, is a huge category of offenses, violent or non-violent, that significantly go against Islam. Google “corruption on earth” + “death penalty” to get an idea of the range of offenses considered to fit that category today in some strict Islamic countries. These crimes vary widely, including, for a few examples, criticizing or calling for changes in Islamic traditions; practicing “sorcery”; engaging in “charlatanism”; sex between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman; highway robbery; destruction of buildings; and terrorism against Muslims.

War against God, mentioned in 5:33 (below), is also the same kind of huge, flexible category that could include a wide variety of offenses significantly against Islamic doctrine or Islamic society. Aqa Mahdi Puya comments: “Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings.” Source: http://al-islam.org/quran/. There are a couple of potentially misleading statements in Puya’s commentary. First, the Koran does call, in jihad, for terrorizing the disbelievers (8:60, 9:5), but never calls for terrorizing believers. Puya’s comments about “innocent people” could refer to Muslims, but the Koran does not consider the non-Muslims to be innocent – far from it (see below). Second, the Koran permits Muslims to have slaves (4:3, 4:36, 23:6, 24:58, 30:28, 33:50). Otherwise, Puya’s commentary is consistent with other accounts. According to Ibn Kathir, disbelief is included in the category of crimes labeled ‘war against God;’ see http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751. What ‘corruption on earth’ and ‘war against God’ have in common is that each is a huge category encompassing a variety of violent and non-violent words and actions considered offenses in Islam. The significant overlap between the two categories involves opposition to Islam, including non-violent opposition.

Scholar and apostate of Islam, Ibn Warraq, does not interpret 5:32 to be a peaceful verse, pointing out that, in light of 5:33, the verse contains a warning to the Jews (i.e., warning them not to commit mischief/corruption). This point is partly in reference to this part of 5:32: “…Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.” “Prodigals of the earth” is not a compliment. It means that many of the Jews were reckless, transgressing laws in the land, despite having been given clear instructions from the prophets of Allah. Ibn Warraq writes, “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses [5:32-33] aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!” [brackets added].[1] (From Ibn Warraq, ed., (2003) Leaving Islam, p. 401. Amherst, New York: Prometheus). Warraq briefly discusses 5:32-33 on-line, at http://challenging-islam.org/articles/warraq-debate-muslims.htm (scroll down to the section on “Context”). This interpretation is consistent with Ibn Kathir’s: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13743

A more direct question is simply, what did Mohammad consider to be acceptable killing? We know from the Islamic texts (Koran, Hadith, Sira) that he had critics and satirical poets assassinated for their words against Islam (Sources: http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html, http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/free_speech.htm, http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm.) The Koran is clear that (male) Muslims must emulate the example of the prophet Mohammad (33:21). Therefore Muslims are obligated to kill (non-Muslim) critics of Islam. If this is acceptable killing according to Islam, why should anyone take 5:32 seriously as a peaceful verse? How can this be a verse of peace when it permits Muslims to kill anyone simply for doing or saying something judged to be against Islam?

5:34: “Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

See Ibn Kathir’s interpretation here: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13783

Those who surrender to Islam will not be killed nor face the other penalties. They must repent before they are overpowered. Keep in mind that Mohammad was, and encouraged his followers to be, ever wary of hypocrites – those who are merely pretending to repent or submit themselves to Allah. Note that whether or not the person must face the penalties listed in 5:33, including death, depends on whether or not the person surrenders to Islam.

These passages may also be taken as having a wider application than dealing with individual transgressions. However, in battles or raids, the Koran states that captives should not be taken until a slaughter has first been made (8:67). In that case, obviously, many disbelievers would be killed before even being given the chance to repent. That doesn’t sound like a very “merciful” policy! But one must also keep in mind the general Islamic policy of acting hard against the disbelievers but being merciful to other believers (48:29).

5:35: “O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of the approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.”

5:36: “As for those who disbelieve, lo! If all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of the Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.”

5:37: “They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.”

A disbeliever is anyone who doesn’t believe in the one Allah (with no partners or rivals), Mohammad’s validity as a prophet, the eventuality of the Last Day, or who significantly transgresses Islam. The disbelievers are non-Muslims, including non-religious people generally, anyone who strongly questions, criticizes, or mocks Islam, and generally people of all other religions (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.). They are doomed to hellfire, and there is nothing that can be done about it – except, of course, to convert to Islam exclusively, before it’s too late. Verse 3:85 says that Islam (the “Surrender”) is the only acceptable religion. Those who deny Mohammad’s revelations are evil (7:177). Over 250 separate verses in the Koran condemn non-Muslims to hell-fire/eternal torture and doom.

The worst possible crime is disbelief in or denial of Allah (10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 32:22). It is considered an act or state of aggressive defiance against Allah. The Koran is quite explicit that disbelief is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191) that involves death of Muslims. (For a discussion, including tafsir, of 2:191, see http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/70.htm, by Ali Sina). Murder of a Muslim is a crime that is penalized according to the law of life-for-life retaliation (5:45; i.e., death penalty), but disbelief is a worse crime! Remember the apologist’s quote, that killing one person is like killing all humankind? If we assume that’s true, then disbelief in Islam is a worse crime than killing all humankind! This sounds like a far-fetched interpretation, but it is a simple logical deduction from what the Koran says. The Koran does not say “disbelief is the second-worst crime, and murder is the worst.” Rather, the Koran clearly and repeatedly states that disbelief is the worst crime.

Think about this for a moment. Why do some Muslims in some parts of the world go on a rampage, killing people over rumors that a Koran has been damaged? Why do some Muslims kill people who merely criticise Islam or make fun of the prophet? How is it that so many thousands of Muslims demonstrated so violently, calling for the death of Salman Rushdie over some words of fictional characters in that author’s novel? Why do some Islamic countries still officially implement the death penalty for “blasphemy”? Why do some Muslims kill people if women are dressed in bikinis for a beauty contest? Unfortunately, this far-fetched interpretation that I just mentioned is accepted with deadly seriousness, and in accordance with Islamic law in many jurisdictions, by millions of Muslims today. This far-fetched interpretation has been widely accepted by Muslims for nearly 1400 years. Belief in Islam is more important to some Muslims than is human life. And that’s what the Koran says: Disbelief is worse than killing.

Non-Muslims, according to the Koran, are not considered innocent civilians. They are “guilty” of disbelief (45:31, 83:29) – the worst crime. The Koran says that non-Muslims are against Allah (25:55); on the side of the Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); “evil” (16:27, 2:91, 2:99); the “wrong-doers” (2:254, 5:45); the “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); hypocrites (4:61); “unclean” (9:28). As for whether non-Muslims are civilians, the Koran is not even clear that non-Muslims are fully human. Instead, the disbelievers are the “worst of created beings” (98:6); “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55); “the worst beasts in Allah’s sight” (8:55), “apes” and/or “pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166), and so on. Verse 60:4 says followers of Allah will hate the disbelievers forever, unless the disbelievers come to believe in Allah only. Think about this thorough demonization of disbelievers, together with the conception of disbelief as the worst possible crime. Now think about how easy it would be for a Koran-believing Muslim to find a non-Muslim guilty of corruption on earth or war against God. Keep in mind that much of the words, deeds, and customs of the non-Muslims happen to go against Islam.

Killing disbelievers is not, in itself, a crime[2]. This is confirmed in Tabari, e.g., “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us…” Tabari IX:69. In fact, many verses in the Koran order the killing of various kinds of disbelievers (33:61, 4:76, 4:89-91, 8:12, 9:41, 9:5, 9:29, 61:11, etc.). Believers must honour their duty to Allah and fight the disbelievers in battle, or be punished in hell (2:216, 8:15-16, 9:39). Although the Koran explicitly forbids the murder of Muslims (4:93), the Koran does not contain a similar statement that forbids the killing or murder of non-Muslims. Where there are benefits to Islam in letting the non-Muslims live, there could be some minimal protections for the non-Muslims[2]. They could be spared as slaves to be bought or sold; they could become dhimmis (subjugated second-class citizens); they could be ransomed; women captives could be taken forcibly as wives or sex slaves; or captives could be set free depending on the personal discretion of the Muslim captor. Abul Kasem has cited and discussed Ibn Kathir’s interpretation of 5:32, indicating that non-Muslims are not protected by 5:32; only Muslims are protected. http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem50808.htm.

Are non-Muslims’ lives protected under other circumstances? Some non-Muslim groups could be protected by temporary treaties with the Muslims, if this was deemed beneficial to Islam. However, even these treaties could be broken at any time (e.g., see 9:1-17) to serve the larger goals of Islam (see below). For a discussion of this broken treaty mentioned in Sura 9, see Ali Sina’s commentary at http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Waqasp3.htm. In that article, Sina also cites 8:58, which allows Muslims to break treaties even if they only suspect or fear treachery from the other side. The treaty violation revealed in Sura 9 illustrates the Islamic jihad policy, as pertaining to the condition where Muslims are in a strong position militarily, e.g., Muslims should not call for peace when they have the upper hand (47:35). Another reason to seriously doubt the validity of such treaties, regardless of the relative military strength of the Muslims, is that the Koran refers to non-Muslims as liars (e.g., 2:10, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11), and thus implies that Muslims should not trust the word of non-Muslims. Thus, because the Koran says disbelievers are liars, Muslims at any time can claim they fear treachery from the other side (8:58) and can therefore make an excuse for breaking a treaty! Historically, treaties have been interpreted by Islamic scholars to be merely temporary tactical manoeuvres that could be overruled within the overriding long-term strategic, global jihad[3].

Intentional killing is a crime (i.e., murder) when one of Muslim humankind is the victim (4:93). More precisely, taking the rest of the Koran into account, 5:32 may only protect strict, Koran-adhering Muslims, or “single-minded slaves of Allah.” Many verses suggest that weak, casual, or mere nominal Muslims may not be protected. This is strongly suggested by Sura 9, which has harsh warnings to those Muslims not willing to kill or be killed in the jihad. Nevertheless, killing a believing Muslim in a terrorist attack could constitute corruption on earth and war against Allah. On that interpretation, because such terrorists (e.g., bin Laden, Zarqawi, et al.) have also killed Muslims (not just inadvertently, but deliberately, e.g., attacks in Saudi Arabia), those terrorists could be penalized in accordance with 5:33. (Fighting between different sects, such as between the Sunni and Shia, has been justified by each side claiming that the other are not true Muslims; hence killing of the others is considered permissible).

Quoted fully, in light of the subsequent verses, and the overarching message of the Koran, verse 5:32 was never intended to forbid the killing of disbelievers. Verses in the Koran must always be understood within the context of the ultimate goal of Islam. Allah sent Mohammad (and his followers) to conquer all other religions (9:33, 48:28, 61:9). To achieve this ultimate goal of vanquishing disbelief, Muslims must convert, subjugate, or kill all non-Muslims until all religion is for Allah (2:193, 8:39; also see 9:5 and 9:29; also see [4]). This must always be kept in mind. This ultimate goal is the context which contains and overrides all contexts in Islam. If killing a non-Muslim is necessary for the advancement or the defence of Islam, then it must be done.

Conclusions

1. Verse 5:32 is almost certainly derived from earlier Jewish sources – actually a rabbi’s commentary, not the revelations of a prophet of God/Allah. Mohammad (or someone) added the “corruption on earth” exception, changing the original concept in order to permit the death penalty for significant violations against Islam.

2. In the Koran, verse 5:32 offers no protection for the lives of non-Muslims. Even if we assume the verse is authentic, corruption on earth is so broad a category that almost anything that disbelievers say or do that is judged to be significantly against Islam could be used as grounds for administering the harsh penalties – including death – described in 5:33. In other words, 5:32 permits what most non-Muslims would consider to be murder. Indeed, the verse grants Muslims licence to kill non-Muslims under a surprisingly broad range of circumstances. Those apologists who present 5:32 to non-Muslims as though it were a good verse are either naïve or are knowingly engaging in deception.

[Reply]

Read this to know more about the great Islam from the Muslims themselves-

http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=21

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I am surprised. How come Mr. Zia spoke about Israel? When someone asked (in previous blogs) what is his take on minority people’s condition in Pakistan: he replied, he is concerned more about his country India than others. Then, it should have been the same stand for Israel as well.

Picture 1: A story. Once there was an old woman, who was suffering from terrible umm.. say
cough. So she prayed lord Venkateshwara “Oh God! if my cough is cured, I will ask my grandson to
visit you by climbing all the seven hills”. Couple of days, her cough got cured. Next morning she got up and told her grand son and said “Beta, I had made an offering to the God and I will be sending you to Tirupati”. Now the ball was in her bechara grand son’s court. That is the story of Palestine.

I have met people who are in their late 70s, who have left Palestine but still have their family
members there. They sadly narrate how these people were driven out of their own land and also
about their current state. (They don’t have any jobs. They used to do Olive cultivation which
Israel does not allow because of security reasons). But what they don’t speak or think about is
their future. They have to grow out of their sad past and rebuild themselves.

Palestine and Israel problem is not just Arab-Jew. Another (main) reason is the population. Gaza
strip is the densest region on Earth and expanding population on both sides of the region are not able to get accommodated. So it is struggle for existence and Israel being the fittest is grabbing the land. (It should be a warning to other dense regions in world like India). Israel should stop Jew immigration and Palestine muslim leaders should educate their people, the need of family planning.

Those who point at violence Hamas or Hezbollah have created, should know how many Israelis they have killed and how many in turn Israel has killed.
Israel Lebanon war(2006) :
Hezbollah killed 11 Israel soldiers. Israel responded with killing at least 1,500 people, mostly
Lebanese civilians and severely damaging Lebanese civil infrastructure.
Israel and Hamas war (2010)
Hamas has fired thousands of rockets to Israel since 2001, but actually killing 28 people.
Israel in turn killed more than 1200 Palestine again severely damaging the infrastructure
including hospitals and schools.
(Many a time I hear people saying, India should act like Israel. I just wonder, after doing all
these, any Israeli has been able to have peaceful sleep or more nightmares.)

See, how Norman Finkelstein opposes Israel and American policies, being a Jew himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ&feature=related
But we can’t agree on the path the Hezbollah or Hamas has taken. It is a plane violence which is
leading to bigger violence.

Picture 2 : We have Tibet, who have followed Gandhian approach of non violence. What have they
achieved? Whole Tibet being occupied by Chinese. Fact is, both Palestine or Tibet people
haven’t got anything despite taking a different path of resistance. Reason..? They are not
powerful. This brutal world respects only people with power. So countries like India show lip
sympathy to Palestine but wants to have good relation with Israel for military reasons.
True, Gandhi led our freedom fight. But Would we have got it in his life time, if British were
not bankrupt in world war II ?

At this point of time, both Israel and China are strong countries and there is no way these two
small places will become independent countries.

Picture 3 : One can say samething with India and Kashmir. True, one can say about mandate.
Another can say pre requisite to mandate has not been reached etc… But forgetting all these
arguments for a minute, if we think how India has treated Kashmir, we will understand where
India stands differently. Rest of the India never settled in Kashmir and drove the Kashmiris
away like how China did. (Kashmir still have their own identity). Kashmiri people were never
blocked from working in any part of India (that is not how Israel treat Palestinians).
Kashmiri’s have a choice whether they want to wear a veil or not (unlike Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan). Economically, the state, which has little industry of its own, is one of the largest recipients of grants from New Delhi, around $ 800 million per year. Ninety percent of that aid is in grants, while most of the other states get 70 percent of their aid in loans. Most of the the time voters have supported NCP, with prefers to be with India and the separatists never dared to contest election. But still India stands with Israel and China for the rest of the world, because of just one reason. It did not allow independent mandate. I just wish, we had a gutsy leader (we haven’t found any after Indira Gandhi, may be Mayawathi) who can take up this challenge we can overcome this hiccup as well (irrespective of whether Pak does it on PoK or not).

Despite all these favors, if Kashmiris still want to be with Pakistan (because other is an
Islamic state), let them be. It is their fate. They can become one more Swat Valley of Pakistan.
Or, if they want to become one more independent country like Afghanistan, they are most welcome.
Instead, if they choose to be part of a powerful country, whose majority is Hindu but where a
muslim can practice his religion freely, let them stay with us with the rights of any other
normal state of India (no article 370).

We keep saying, where is moderate people in Islam. They can’t stand individually to fight with
the aggressive guys. Given a chance to vote, they might show their will. After all, Kashmir
people are not asking for separation. They are asking for a mandate. Why should we be nervous of losing them. A person can keep saying, this country has not given anything. It could have been better, if I was on other side. Let us point straight, ask them to decide themselves and remind them that their decision in irreversible. Will options will they choose?

Question, what if India looses the mandate? We got rid of a headache, 800 million dollar aids.
What if we win? We can show the world, there is another way of winning.

Ending with another story. This time bollywood. A girl was forced to marry a person, who was not
her choice. She sang .. ‘Hum dil de chuke sanam …’ etc. Husband was nervous to loose her and
never asked her, whom she really prefers. They went on to stay in separate rooms. Ending .? I don’t know.

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:23 pm

no more land to pakistan.
not even an inch of land to pakistan.

If kashmir’s muslims want to have a muslim state, they are welcome to go to Pakistan.

Pakistan already got its share of Kashmir (due to stupidity of indian leaders).

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shan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:58 pm

Ending , despite the moronic husband deciding to pay from his own pocket and take the girl to visit her lover, all the way to hungary, curiously the girl eventually returns to her husband. Hindu, very Hindu, like filmi very filmi.

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Akash Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

Shan,
Haha…

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Akash Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

Vinay,
Very noble thoughts, though slightly unclear about the thrust of your argument. The problem with Kashmir is not merely of Hum dil de chke blah blah..The dark forces that want to “liberate” Kashmir from the Hindu ‘infidels’ are not going to be satisfied with just that. They have stated their aim to fly their flag atop the Red Fort. If that happens, I am not sure about ‘dil’ but even our dhoti would be gone. Be careful what you wish for.

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shan Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

@Akash, Absolutely correct. The next will that geezer Owaid Awaisi, whom you see in NDTVasking for return of hyderabad to the Nizams , and bits of Kerala, murshidabad in west bengal , the parts of assam bordering bangladesh chopped off. Not that their lot will improve
infact the world will have to contend with couple of bagladesh and pakistan , terrorisr breeding grounds. This is inevitable , India is not the greatest country in the earth , far from it , but it is the only country in THIRD WORLD capable of pulling muslims out of the mental darkness due to its open liberal culture where army is kept at arms length , unlike rest of ummah who are submerged and subjugated by the obscurantist , oppressive religious dogma.

[Reply]

Gopi Thomas Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

@Akash @Shan

You are absolutely right. Muslims got “their” first district in India, in Malappuram district of kerala. Now, the leaders and the party (comparatively moderate Muslim Laague party to which the Dy Railway Minister E Ahmed belongs) who were responsible for that are ridiculed by other Muslims here as being docile , and many extremist splinter groups have been formed in kerala – PDP, NDF, PDF, SDPi ; all SIMI in disguise. There were no burquas in Kerala 20 years ago, no hijabs; now u see that all over. These Muslim groups are killing among themselves, obviously to decide who is the purest.

The “political Islam” is taking shape here just like it is all over the world, and we better be prepared for the mayhem. Ramesh, in a response a while ago, had a valid point – when does majority/others take a stand against so called minority rights when those rights is harmful for the minority and majority alike; harmful to the larger community at large.

There is a group hell-bent on dragging everything back to AD 650. I am convinced at that. We (Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, budhists, Jains , aethists) should neutralize this group, handing them over to police, or through effective citizen watchdogs.

Shoeb K Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 3:38 am

Congress in Kerala is joining with Jama-et-Islami to contest next elections. Same Congress that says RSS is communal!

One of the stated obvjectives of Jama-et Islami is the establishment of an Indian Islamic nation, where political Islam is integrated in the government.

@ShoebK , JamaEt-islami, are a curious and funny lot. Little that I know they were staunchly against the idea of pakistan , that is why they have been close allies of congress ever since independence.

[Reply]

Akash Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

Congress wallahs are responsible for 90% of the mess this country has gone through. Wonder when will this Gandhi family stop “serving” us.

Shan,
Jamaat had its own reasons for not dividing the country. It didn’t want to lose the opportunity to convert the whole of country and correctly estimated that Muslims would be the biggest losers due to the Partition. For all the arguments about secular Jinnah, I am sometimes amazed as to how he misread this simple argument. In united India, these obscurantist would have been easier to corral. Give these yahoos an inch and they threaten to turn the whole country upside down. Witness what our neighbors are suffering in Pakistan. I am glad, however, that Partition happened and we don’t have to deal with the inner tribulations of the Ummah, whatever that nonsense means.

Gopi,
You honestly can’t include PDF in that category. They sound quite modern.
I don’t agree with you, however, that we should indulge in vigilante justice. This fight has to be won by the moderate Muslims, and I think they are doing it pretty well in our country on the whole. Let’s extend a helping hand by curbing our own monsters: the assorted rascals of Bajrang Dal.

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

Islam will be destroyed in india!.

[Reply]

Gopi Thomas Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

@Shan @Akash

Akash is right about Jamaet Islami. They and Deobandi School were against partition; however, they wanted population based representation, and felt it could be accomplished eventually. Maududi and his wing went over to Pakistan and made their Jamait very very ultra conservative (Sharia as the law of the land etc, return to caliphate etc etc..and founded the Deobandi school there) . The Jamait ones left behind, while “moderate” compared to the ones who left, still had Islamic Nation as a goal; did not want Bengla Desh to be cut off from Pakistan (and did not want india to help that cause).

Akash, I was not advocating taking law into our hands. Grass roots citizen organizations should arise against some of the minority tyrannies because these can drag the whole larger communirty/India backward.

And PDF, SDPI, NDF, PDP — they all have “democratic” in their names, but they dont want any democracy — all are SIMI.

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http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/19-saeed-rubs-shoulders-with-party-chiefs-460-hh-07

Can i also have freedom to sit on a muslim symbol, like the flag of KSA, or koran ??
Will there be a fatwa for my death ? if i do it ?

[Reply]

Akash Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 1:25 pm

Where is the drone when we need one..One hellfire missile and these fat cats would have got an immediate appointment with their quotas of houris.

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HINDUSTAN TIMES WAKE UP! YOU HAVE POWER IN VOICE TO THE MASSES OF INDIA! SPREAD THE WORD; GET ISLAM OUT OF INDIA!

GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO GIVE IN TO THE MASSES! ISLAM = EVIL! ISLAM = FAKE ISLAM = FOLLOWED BE DELUDED PEOPLE!

[Reply]

Akhlesh Reply:
June 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

Shut up, you hate-mongering DUDE!

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The lands of ASHOKA need to be reclaimed!

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Will India get a super power dictator that will enforce this vision that millions of TRUE INDIANS have?

To rid the Lands of Ashoka of Islam!

Oh how the moguls would have fallen at Ashoka’s feet!

If he had lived to see his beloved land DESTROYED by foreign islam, he would not have taken it even with his new stance of non violence!

Ashoka the great! the spirit of TRUE India!

WAKE UP HINDUSTAN ……………. THE LAND OF THE Sanātana Dharma , Jain AND Buddist PEOPLE ……………..RECLAIM YOUR LANDS! …….EDUCATE YOURSELF! ……ERRADICATE islam FROM THE LANDS OF ASHOKA!

All brown fake muslims, convert to your ancestral religion! become free!

[Reply]

ram Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 5:50 am

Dude, brother, please stop this non-sense. Be practical, man. I mean, you are behaving like the fundamentalist Muslims! Desist from this childish behaviour, boy and grow up!

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Indians All around the world want India to recalim its lands, the lands that Ashoka reached! Which includes afghanistan, pakistan and bangerstan!

Indians all around the world want India free of islam!

Zoroastrian Persians reclaim iran!

indonesia convert to your ancestral religion! free yourself from islam!

WAKE UP INDIA! LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER! TRUE INDIANS DO NOT WANT islam ANYWHERE NEAR INDIA!

convert these pests! back to their ancestral religion or chuck them back to arabia! let the arabian oil chumps take the burden!

India needs a NEW GOVERNMENT! A PURE ARYAN, DRAVIDEND true Sanātana Dharma , Jain AND Buddist GOVERNMENT! FREE OF islam! one mission to reclaim its lands and to convert or get rid of al these brown muslims!

erradicate islaMe FROM India!

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Just speaking what many believe!

not in a bad way but a right way!

if any muslim is offended by this then! tell me how MANY FEEL about islamic mogul invaders 1000 years ago! taking lands which never belonged to them, killing innocents and converting them by force!

you tell me the pain of these people before you are being offended!

only reason any brown person in this world is muslim is because either they were dumb or they got converted by force!

peace to all REAL faiths!

wake up Hindustan (SanātanaDharmaSTAN)

[Reply]

Bobby Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

500000 Sam’s + 200000 Jeev twins + 100000000 supandis + 1000000 nuts = 1 Dude

[Reply]

DUDE Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 6:12 pm

TUT TUT!

[Reply]

Sam Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

Dude—
get a blog a start writing your thoughts in a very convincing and cohesive manner.

after a good number of articles, spread the word around…

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@ DUDE
IF I WANT ANY HINDU TO CONVERT TO SOME OTHER FAITH ,I WILL JUST BRING HIM TO THIS BLOG

YOU HAVE BETTER STUFF IN YOU DUDE…..COULD YOU WATCH THE MOVIES I SUGGESTED????

HOTEL RWANDA…… ANOTHER BUEATIFUL MOVIE

[Reply]

shan Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 2:50 am

@Rehmath, if you are into movies as I am , then I suggest Matchpoint by woody allen, , american beauty by sam mendez, jean de florette, problem child, roxanne, charlie wilson’s war, and definitely salvador by oliver stone.If you need any suggestion just come to these blogs, I have a grasp of world cinema. Some chinese movies are mind boggling , like raise the red lanturn, another is named ” to live, “.Also the one I am planning to see anytime is called would you beleive it !! “The Prophet”. It has nothing to do with yes as you have guessed it, it is about the moroccan imigrants in paris. Perhaps you could watch Satyajit Ray’s movies with subtitle, try kapurush-o- mahapurush.or abhijan which has waheeda rehman.

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DUDE Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

@ Rahmath

Hello again Ms Rahmath, unfortunetly I have not had time to watch the movies you suggested……but will do one day…………

I’ve been mainly watching the B-Movie legend; Bruce Campbells movies…………quite funny.

Hope all is well …………

PS. Try to convert the muslims back as oppose to other faiths

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But the question is- why can’t Muslims live peacefully? You may shout from the rooftops about Islam being a peaceful religion, but no one is gonna take that bait till 99% of terrorists and 99.9% of religious terrorists continue to be Muslims. The gap between the words and deeds is humungous in case of Islam. Other religions, including Hinduism and Christianity, also suffer from hypocrisy, bad customs and irrational beliefs. But most of the people from these faith do not insist upon following their so-called ‘holy’ books verbatim. They don’t swear by their books and blast themselves in bazaars for establishing the reign of their religion and wiping out the unbelievers. This distinction applies to Muslims only, solidly backed up by violent verses of Koran. I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists; indeed very few are, but almost all are terrorist sympathizers. Why are even the most educated people from your religion in constant denial and believe in the siliest conspiracy theories about 9/11? Why does my Muslim roommate, who is doing MD in Medicine, say 9/11 was done by Jews and when I confront him with 26/11 of Mumbai, he goes into some kind of reverie and says he does not know who is Kasab, even when Pakistani government itself has accepted his nationality and photographs and interviews of his father are all over the news media? If followers of other religions can let go of fundamentalism by and large and progress in life, what makes Muslim society become more and more regressive and fanatic? Unless you accept that their is some problem in the first place, how will you solve it? Why don’t the supposedly ‘moderate’ Muslims come forward and oppose the terrorist philosophy being taught in madarsas all over the world? Why can’t you people denounce or modify your texts to edit out the hateful and violent parts? You have to be honest first. Stop blaming others for everything. Why don’t people say the same thing about Buddhists and Jains and any other religion that they say about your religion? It is obvious. And if you really live peacefully and give equal respect to other religions, be sure that you will get equal respect and love from others.

P.S.- Lack of insight is what differentiates a neurotic from a psychotic.

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80% of the Muslims believe that jewish employees of world trade Center were given code word for not showing up for work on 9/11. They believe it was an inside (CIA-Mossad, thankfully no Indians included) job; the premise being how can anybody guide a plane to a building, especiall in US , with all its army and airforce.

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ram Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 11:49 pm

Muslims have willfully submerged themselves in total darkness and live in abject denial. They have conditioned their minds to be guided by Hezbollah, Al-Qaida and Mujahideen propaganda. Even the educated Muslims, like my roommate pursuing Medicine mentioned above, refuse to see the daylight. You can treat a blind person, but nothing can be done for a person with healthy eyes who refuses to open them and see!

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Sam Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 3:25 am

If 80% Muslims really believe that ****…in this age
they are in serious denial..
In this day and age, you even connect online with people who worked in that place.
yes directly connect with them online.

hear the story from them directly..

muslims and other autocratic societies are known for conspiracy theories.
those theories are good escape fantasy for them ..

no wonder, no pakistani muslim condemns that their religion has caused Ahmadi’s killings.

they didnt even let a dead man (Nobel prize winner) rest in peace.
His gravemarker had to be erased of “muslim” word..

most societies, say let bygones be bygones and let’s not disturb grave marker.

muslims in pakistan, cannot let it happen even for Abdus Salam (nobel prize winner) and someone who did so many great things for pakistan.

imagine how an ordinary hindu or christian is being treated there..
hindu girls kidnapped and forcefully converted..
sikhs kidnapped and ask to pay jizya….

i wrote to pakistani columnists to condemn these things, but their condemnations are so carefully worded that they are not real condemnations..

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Zia dear, I am posting some material directly from Islamic website http://hadith.al-islam.com below about ‘Jihad’. That will peel off the facade of ‘moderate’ Muslims like you, who engage in the blatantly false propaganda (Taqiya, another Islamic principle) about ‘Jihad’ meaning ‘internal struggle for truth’.

Al-Bara’, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
When the Qur’anic verse Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home) and and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allâh the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered Zaid (to write the verse). He brought a shoulder-blade (of a slaughtered camel) and inscribed it (the verse) thereon. The son of Umm Maktum complained of his blindness to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). (At this) descended the revelation: Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc)

Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 3516.

The above hadith is posted under the heading “JIHAD NOT COMPULSORY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE A GENUINE EXCUSE” and the link for the heading is- http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/DisplayHits.asp?Lang=eng&ID=4433&From=4434&To=4443.

Now, if Jihad really meant ‘internal struggle for truth or contemplation’, why a Muslim person sitting at home or a physically disabled Muslim can not take part in Jihad as said above? It clearly shows that the concept of Jihad as understood by us Kafirs watching the noble deeds of Muslim terrorists is correct! Stop your taqiya, man!

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syed Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 11:36 pm

@Ram,
Er, if you go for the ahadith, there is a reference in the kitab al baghdadi to the effect that the prophet, after coming from a battle advised his followers to move from the lesser jehad to the greater jehad (jehad al akbar) which is to strive against one’s desire.

But we can keep on discussing such issues till the cows come home & still not arrive at any conclusion. The moot point is that Islam is as good and as bad as any other religion. The only difference being muslims tend to follow it literally more so than people of other religions…

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shan Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

@Syed, Brilliant, but of no use to the ones it is meant for , because you cannot wake a person who is pretending to asleep. Also Syed Bhai could you please contribute in Gautam’ s blog about that millatface book interview. May be , Just may be you will be able to shine some light to the ones who are flooding to that blog from other side of the border.

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Raju Kurien Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

@syed
While literal following is one aspect; arent there other “foundational blocks” that create a disproportionate number of “misfits” (I am using the term loosely) – the notions of believer/non-believer, fidels/non-fidels, kauffrs, dar-ul-islam vs dar-ul -harb, umma etc ? Literal following of the book plus these foundational nonsense that is fed while the kids are at an impressionable age cause tons of problems for themselves and for the larger human community.

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shan Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

The problem is the “other” argument is not allowed to be heard, not only that it is threatened with murder, it is only one version a bit like toatalitarian states, that is why democracy is not welcome in Islam or perhaps incompatible. A muslim version of Martin Luther or Swami Vivekananda will tear down piece by piece all the bunkum. To start with authenticity of Quoran , the earliest complete written version is two hundreed years after prophet’s death. Imagine somebody saying that in that two hundreed years what not has corrupted it and thus such a massive scope for reforming and creating a islamic version la new testament. Again as for hadith it is written EIGHT hundreed years later from HEARSAY. To an average intelligence person to ascribe any importance to it is like relying on financial statements written fifty years after its operation.

syed Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 8:10 pm

@Raju, shan

Will be giving my reply on Gautam’s blog…..

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/video/video.php?v=220924013521

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Zionist controlled press in america.
Paul Craig

Paying the Price for Objectivity Toward Palestinians
Helen Thomas: an Appreciation
The propagandists for the Israel Lobby, who occupy the Wall Street Journal editorial page while pretending to be journalists, are determined to remove Helen Thomas from the annals of journalism. In case you have already forgotten, a few days ago the distinguished career of Helen Thomas, the 89-year-old doyen of the White House Press Corps, was ended by the Israel Lobby, which made an issue about her opinion that immigrant Jews should leave Palestine and go back to their home countries.

The White House Correspondents’ Association fell in line with the demands of the Israel Lobby, and the cowardly president of the organization added the association’s disapprobation to that of the neoconservative cabal.

Having removed Helen Thomas from the journalism scene, the Israel Lobby is now working with its agents on the Wall Street Journal editorial page to eliminate the Helen Thomas Award for Lifetime Achievement from the Society of Professional Journalists.

A nonentity in the world of journalism, James Taranto, apparently is associated with the Wall Street Journal editorial page, although Wikipedia reports that he was incapable of graduating from journalism school at California State University, Northridge. On a Wall Street Journal web site, Taranto writes: “We’ve been calling Thomas ‘American journalism’s crazy old aunt in the attic’ for years,” and he asks who would now accept the Helen Thomas award after Ms. Thomas revealed she really was crazy by criticizing Israel.

I would for one. Of course the Society of Professional Journalists would never give the award, assuming the distinguished award survives the assault of the Israel Lobby’s assassins, to a critic of Israel. Helen excepted, American journalists are cowards. With the concentrated ownership of the corporate media today, no independently-minded journalist can have a career in print or TV media. You defend the Washington/Tel Aviv line, or you are out of work.

The absence of independently-minded journalists on the Wall Street Journal editorial page is an extraordinary change from my days as Associate Editor of that page. The editorial page editor, Robert Bartley was ambitious and forced himself to tolerate talented colleagues. Mere opinion was not our task. Often we scooped the reporters on the news side of the paper. Our editorials reported new developments and provided factual analysis.

I was hired as Jude Wanniski’s replacement. Jude, Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, was fired, allegedly because the journal’s brass caught him handing out election campaign literature on a train platform, but if you believe American journalism was ever that pure, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Jude was fired, because the neoconservatives got rid of him by telling Bartley that Wanniski was over-shadowing him. That was too much for Bob’s ego. Jude, of course, being a real journalist, was objective toward the Palestinians and thus had earned the enmity of the Israel Lobby.

Once Bob was rapidly declining with prostate cancer, neoconservatives engineered the takeover of the editorial page. Today the once proud Wall Street Journal editorial page is a leading apologist for Israeli/American war crimes and police states.

To return to the nonentity, James Taranto, who wants to throw Helen Thomas down the memory hole: Helen Thomas’ opinion that Israelis should stop stealing the villages, homes, and lands of Palestinians, while confining Palestinians to the equivalent of the Warsaw Ghetto, is equated by Taranto to the advocacy of “ethnic cleansing” by Helen.

Of course, it is the Israelis who are doing the ethnic cleansing. Many Jews have documented Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, such as Uri Avnery, a former member of the Israeli terrorist organization, Irgun, Ilan Pappe, Israel’s most distinguished historian and author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, and the Israeli peace group, ICHAD, who have been my house guests. The Israeli newspaper, Haaratz, is far more critical of Israeli policy than Helen Thomas, and so is MIT professor Noam Chomsky, the distinguished British journalist and film maker John Pilger, and the distinguished scholar, Norman Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors.

But Taranto prefers an 89-year old adversary.

Israel is an unnatural state. It was created by terror that was accommodated by craven British and US “diplomacy.” Israel exists for one reason only: the US government provides the money, weapons, and diplomatic protection. Any other government that murdered thousands of civilians in other countries, as Israel does routinely in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank, would have its entire government and military on trial before the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague. Israelis have no worst enemy than their own government.

Every time the rest of the world tries to hold the Israeli government accountable for its crimes, the US vetoes the UN resolution. America has become the enabler of the Zionist-hijacked Israeli government. And the Israeli government knows it. Israeli government leaders have publicly bragged for decades about their control over the US government. US Admiral Tom Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff after whom the F-14 “Tomcat” jet fighter was named, declared publicly: “No American President can stand up to Israel.” Apparently no American journalist can either.

I am a critic of Israel’s heartless policy toward the Palestinians, but I do not want Israel destroyed. I want it moved or reformed. Bring the small number of Israelis to America before there is a nuclear war over the fact that they are where they should not be. To try to claim a land and dispossess its people on the basis of a spurious two thousand year year old deed is an audacious act of conquest and dispossession.

My proposal to relocate Israelis in the US is rhetorical, but why not insist that the Israelis, who are heavily dependent on US largess, reform? Why should Americans support an apartheid racist state that denies citizenship to the rightful inhabitants? What kind of morality, if any, does the Wall Street Journal editorial page represent when it defends Israelis who force Palestinians into ever-shrinking ghettos, deprived of water, food, medical care and schools? Why must Palestinians live in dread of Israeli bulldozers arriving to flatten their homes in order to create space for Zionist “settlers.”

Allegedly, the US is a superpower, but in fact it is a puppet state of the Israeli government. Witness, for example (the examples are numerous), the fate of the Goldstone Report on Israeli war crimes committed in Israel’s assault on Gaza during December 2008-January 2009. Goldstone is a Zionist Jew and a distinguished judge. He was given the task by the United Nations to investigate the Israeli attack on Gaza. Being an honest person, he provided evidence of Israeli war crimes.

What was the result? The bought-and-paid-for US Congress voted, on the instructions of their master, the Israel Lobby, to deep-six the Goldstone Report by a vote of 344 to 36.

Amazing, isn’t it, there were only 36 US Representatives who were not owned by the Israel Lobby.

Of course, James Taranto serves the Israel Lobby. The Wall Street Journal editorial page, not even a shadow of its former self, when it speaks, speaks for Israel and for the Bush/Cheney militarist police state.

The Wall Street Journal editorial page has fallen into the low ranks of Brownshirt propaganda. The fact that management tolerates the continuation of totally nonobjective journalism shows why print newspapers are failing everywhere.

The hubris of Taranto, a mere propagandist who will never come close to the league in which Helen Thomas resides, causes him to think that he is fit to pass judgment on a real journalist. Taranto epitomizes the hubris of the neoconservatives. Not a single one of them has the smallest accomplishment. Yet, blinded with arrogance, they remain in ignorant bliss of their status as prostitutes.

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Boy, that’s sheer fantastic! there also used to good old Narottam Puri with his cricket insights and insults. And then there was Miley sur mera tumhara with a buxom runner heaving in holding a flaming mashaal in her hand. However, nothing could ever beat the constipated face of Salma Sultan – hard to imagine that she could be a sister of Rehana Sultan! After the daily telecast, I suspect may be she would LOL or **** aloud, whichever come earlier. And no I don’t mean it as an insult, DD forced its newscasters to wear a dead-pan – not like today’s newscasters who would smile while breaking-in with the news that few 100 people died in a train accident few minutes ago!

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