An uncomplicated, unblemished Haj



To nobody’s surprise, the clamour is growing louder among Muslims to wind down the Haj subsidy.

The government bankrolls the pilgrimage by partly paying the airfare to Saudi Arabia. However, the subsidy actually goes in bailing out Air India, while exposing Muslims to charges of appeasement.

The UPA government’s plan, which is under evaluation, to gradually stop financing the Haj pilgrimage is a step in the right direction, several Muslim leaders told me recently.

From the Muslim Personal Law Board and Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind to the Milli Council, many organisations have said it was time the government pulled out of the Haj business.

Why? A major gripe is that Air-India’s fares are sharply higher than routine fares. The money indeed is used to cross-subsidize the national carrier. Over 1,50,000 Indian Muslims travel to Mecca each year for Haj, one of the five pillars of Islam.

That’s approximately the total number of passengers flying across all domestic airlines on any given day if they run to capacity. That’s big business too for Air India, helping it keep afloat. It should indeed be big business for any airline.

Yet, Air India jacks up fares during Haj to more than double, ostensibly on the grounds that it has pull out planes from regular operations for dedicated Haj travel. This runs contrary to economies of scale, which imply that greater the business volume, lower the costs to consumers.

There’s a reason why successive governments have sustained the Haj subsidy.

Scrapping the subsidy or scaling it down could ground Air India, financially always in the doldrums. When was the last time it posted noticeable profits? Its pilots, crew and other staff frequently encounter delayed salaries. Now, imagine lopping off 1,50,000 assured passengers annually from an airline’s business, especially one deep in the red? That’s lopping off a major chunk of its shrinking revenue.

Rajya Sabha deputy chairperson K. Rahman Khan had told me that he had suggested Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to “corporatize” the Haj Committee, the body that makes all arrangements, so that the subsidy could be gradually withdrawn.

Indian Haj authorities should get powers to float global tenders for airlines to ferry over one-lakh Haj pilgrims, a move that would end Air India’s monopoly. A decades-old treaty between Saudi Arabia and India effectively stipulates that only the Saudi national airline and India’s national carrier should ferry Haj pilgrims. Scrap it.

“The subsidy has been inconsequential,” Rajya Sabha MP and Jamiat leader, Mahmood Madni told me the other day.

Global tenders for airlines should be floated so that the lowest bidder gets the job.

Imran Kidwai, chairman of the Congress’s minority cell, said the government would consult the community’s stakeholders to settle on a consensus model, like Malaysia’s Tabung Haji.

Each year, the Cabinet decides how much the Haj Committee, the facilitating agency, should charge as airfare. Last year, passengers were charged Rs 12,000 each. The remaining part of the fare is paid directly by the government to Air India.

Going by last year’s subsidy of about Rs 826 crore, the Air India fare must have been between Rs 80,000-90,000 per passenger, when current round trip economy fare to Jeddah is about just about Rs 18,000.

The government should now consider giving three-year’s subsidy at one time as seed capital to the Haj Committee and stop the subsidy after that, according to Manzoor Alam, the Milli Council chief. Fair enough.

India should switch to a Malaysia-like model of Tabung Haji. Under the Malaysian model, each prospective pilgrim contributes money towards future Haj travel to a Shariat-complaint corpus of fund, something like India’s Public Provident Fund.

When the money becomes adequate to meet an individual’s total Haj expenses, it can be used to pay for the pilgrimage. Malaysians therefore fund their own Haj travel. Indians can do the same.

The subsidy money saved by the government, or a major part of it, should instead be used to finance the ministry of minority affairs. The allocation will not just be enough to run the ministry’s non-plan expenditures but also help it considerably widen its welfare schemes.

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  • Gopi Thomas

    No “fund”, period. Not even people contributing for future travel.

    Haj tarvel must be personal, and no state intervention. The only responsibility of the government is to ensure its citizens are not mistreated abroad (which Indian Muslims are — for all the brotherhood nonsense that Muslims talk about, Saudi Arabia discriminates against Asian Muslims (including Pakistanis) –they treat Asian Muslims like garbage!)

    Zia talked about revival vs reevaluation. Let this be a part of revival. Forget MPLB, forget about exclusivity, just be like others. Preserving “minority” and special status have resulted (along with other reasons) a crippled, regressive, most backward community.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Gopi

    Don’t worry Gopi, our kids will read so in our History a decades down the line:

    That the Government forced Muslims to subsidize Air India, which was bleeding all the time. It were the great Muslimswho kept the flag of Air India flying (high might not work), but when the communal Hindus started their hate mongering saying GOVT was subsidising Haz Travel (although the TRUTH was the reverse), Muslims put their foot down and said sorry:- “Humne Bhuke-Nange Airlines ko subsidy dena band kar diya hai.”

    The articles you read here will be used as Manuscripts for that History and the comments will be used to show the bigotry of Hindus (most likely Upper caste HINDUS)

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Witty reply! I’m afraid this prediction might turn out to true in course given the alarming progress in dhimmihood we Hindus are making. Muslims should thank people like Akash over here!

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Hey SKS,

    http://khabar.josh18.com/view_ashutosh.php?vid=32567&name=05_2010/0505_niru6&start=0

    listen to pandit devendra in this video…..dont miss it!!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    yes, entertaining, isn’t he? As most pompous asses are when they have their 2 minutes of fame in front of TV cameras
    However, I have never heard of this guy; is he well known? Does he represent mainstream public opinion of the HIndus?
    Let me recommend for your viewing pleasure .. don’t miss what Imam Bukhari has to say about Shias
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc1ECswJfl0

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Indian

    Very good link. So what is the point? There is rubbish in Hindu scriptures and there are many Hindus who publicly accept so, so even if were to find a dozen example like this pundit, it does not help.

    But this reminds me of an earlier dialogue with you (I could be wrong and that will be better for you) or to be precise with another person commenting as ‘INDIAN’ . It was here on this blog itself .

    It isn’t very important if you are the same or not, but the response I gave there might still be USEFUL for you (some extracts reproduced).
    http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/they-call-me-muslim/2010/01/17/muslim-moniker-is-sticky-but-i-didn%e2%80%99t-coin-it/#respond

    “Get me any Muslim organization (which does not fall in your classification of Hard liners), any one of the mainstream entity will do ( in Indian context, it should be quite easy, as except for the most virulent breed of Jehadis, most of the Muslim Organisations in India are considered Secular. …………I would expect you to keep Heretics out of this as also the Shias, bcoz, we are talking Sunnis only). Now the only criteria for this organization would be a public statement saying they reject the idea of a Islamic Calliphate or at the very least acknowledge that there is “SOME PART” of Quran which it totally rejects and/or that “SUCH or SOME PARTS” of Quran have no place in a civilized & cultured society (forget the exact words, even milder ones will do). ”

    Now, if you can give an answer to this question, it would be far more useful for far too many people.

    Indian Reply:

    http://khabar.josh18.com/videos/32734/05_2010/mudda_0805

    ram Reply:

    Read contents from this Islamic website to know from Muslims what Islam is. That will open your eyes to the taqiyya propagated by liars like Zia-

    http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=21.

    Now why should Indian taxpayers bankroll the Haj luxuries of this inhuman cult of Izlam?

  • http://- Rajeev

    Indian govt. should scrap all the privileges enjoyed by muslims including WAQF land that muslims have been illegally occupying for centuries.

    All the lands under waqf should be taken over by govt. under enemy property act (as it is practices in pak and BD) and sell it at the best prices.

    ENough of Khairat to muslims…the eternal whiners…beggars.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I am glad that you are learning new words like whiners..Cool..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why don’t you use your real name? There is no shame in admitting your identity.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby Akash.. :)

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Oh, so first i was a Muslim, and now I am Bobby? :) You seem relaxed now, Rajeev “phoojhari” Singh. Good!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby :)

    What is Phoojhari? Some kind of muslim BS.

    Akash Reply:

    I meant Phooljhari…too bad you couldn’t guess that. I guess you are not from the Hindi heartland. Maybe you are an NRI.

    Amit Julka Reply:

    @akash:great going!….me likes….and SKS,Amit happens to be my real name

    Akash Reply:

    Amit,
    SKS brings good arguments. Rajeev, however, well, what can I say. He has become a little monotonous.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Laundiya,
    Now you know where I come from. How about if I put that Phooljhari up your a*ss?

    Amit Julka, You like Akash… I didn’t know that…

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev sadakchap,
    We both like you. I am sure you didn’t know that too. We need some pinhead for us to feel good about ourselves. It’s such an ego boost. I feel sad for you; it must be so hard for you to find similar happiness.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash G*and*chap,
    I stay away from Laundiyas like you. I am glad, you guys are still in minority in India.
    You can stay in your group and find :) happiness. I am glad to be unhappy.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I understand now the source of your unhappiness. See below.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Laundiya,
    My source of unhappiness are girls like YOU and Sania who keep to bed with Pakistanis.
    You are like a sister to me so it is my duty to save your honour. Right now you are misguided by fake love but I won’t leave you.
    Love you sis :)

    KP Reply:

    @Akash, read this- http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=21. May be it will open your eyes. If it doesn’t, you are the crescendo of dhimmihood!

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Dear Rajeev, Indians and Hindus in particular have developed selective deafness and blindness with regard to the evil cult of Izzlam! So all your rants are falling on deaf ears. They will hear and understand the oneness of Izzlam, Quran and terrorism when their own relatives get killed in blasts. And Zia’s anti-national propaganda is becoming bolder by the day. Anyway, this is what has happening for last 1400 years. Muslims spit and defecate in the very dish that provides them food. Feeding milk to serpents won’t make them your friends! After eating up thousands of crores of rupees earned by the Indian taxpayers in the name of Haj (in a so-called secular country), Zia and his friends have the gumption to proclaim that they have been bankrolling the AI! One more example of self-deluding propaganda Muslims specialize in. What do they want? We should give them 100% off and send them to Mecca by Business Class of Fly Emirates? So that even more terrorists are directly funded from taxpayers’ hard-earned money! And barely a handful minority of Muslims pay taxes.

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Ingratitude is in the genes of Muslims!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    They say the same thing about Biharis, Prashant. I bet you agree to that too. As for ingratitude, have you heard about Madhuri Gupta. Such random accusations doesn’t help any discussion. Zia has proposed a constructive idea. Some of us disagree with some of his assumptions, as SKS has written in his detailed reply.
    When you write nonsense like that, you tar normal decent folks with the same brush. APJ is also a Muslim. He has done more than you and Rajeev and a million idiots like you combined. Have some class, for heaven’s sake.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @AKASH

    I don’t agree with your contention that ZIA has proposed some constructive idea.
    I strongly disagree with your statement that ’some of us just disagreed with his assumptions’, especially if include me in ‘some of us’.

    B’coz, I am not disagreeing, I am saying ZIA’s statements are FALSE, the blame he imputes on others is egregious.

    To take his statements as genuine errors or mistakes, will require us to be imbeciles, simply because, much of what I wrote here had been conveyed to him on this blog itself in recent past.

    One can perhaps understand, if he simply avoided/ignored this issue (for obvious but hardly noble reasons) but to reiterate the same nonsense and asserting again that Muslims are unfairly blamed for appeasement ? What is the most charitable construction you can put on this?
    Frankly to see GREY shades here is exceptionally considerate on your part.

    Of course, I agree to your objections regarding Prashant’s comments about Muslim genes and request him to stick to civil language.

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    Saying that someone statements are false would imply some disagreement. I agree with you that I did not adequately convey the vehemence of your claims. As for the constructive bit, I think the whole idea of doing away with the Haj subsidy is a good one, though not a novel one. The other options can be debated. Now, as for Muslims being blamed for appeasement, my ambiguity stems from my ignorance about how this Haj subsidy started. If it was started as a way of appeasing Muslims, I am not sure how you can blame Muslims for that. Who can ignore such a gift?

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    @Akash, why don’t you reveal your real name, you muslim terrorist sympathiser? Madhuri Gupta was just a person like you who converted to Islam 6 years ago because she liked the taste of dirty Moslem ****! And it’s well-known that converted muslims (like you) are even more dangerous than born ones, as they are ready to cross all limits of fiendishness to prove their newfound loyalty to the murderous cult!

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Akash and other self-appointed dhimmi apologists for Islam would bring out the few good people like Mr. APJAK, A. R. Rehman and Abdus Salam to prove that Islam is a good cult. How puerile! They are good and successful human beings in their respective fields precisely because they are not typical Muslims, who live and die by Quran and Quran only. Akash I’ve nothing personal against you. But have you read the Quran? I am not saying that all muslims are bad, but this is a truth that the moment they understand their religion and start following the Quran in its totality, they are transformed into TERRORISTS! First read the Quran yourself and then open your ignorant mouth. You are raised on the false and romanticised, sanitised and sycophantic history manufactured by liars like Romila Thapar. So I don’t blame you for your ignorance. And I’m not a Bihari! Though I’ll say that it showcases you in poor light to rant against your countrymen on the basis of regionalism, while you prostrate before the Muslims. Just in case your name is for real!

    vaatlagi Reply:

    What can you expect out of these people who have no identity of their own.Dhobi ka ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka. They worship a delusional and schizophrenic Arab’s cult and that too with more passion than the Arabs themselves who treat them like shit. Ignored by Hindus,Christians,Jains,Sikhs,Jews,Buddhists and every one else. and detested by Arabs. They go for Haj and are happy to worship an Arabic Allah to appease the Arabs. No wonder they commit every conceivable cowardly act,like suicide bombings and Jihad,believing in afterlife reward of virging.

    [Reply]

    KP Reply:

    Very true!

  • Suraj

    There are lot of things which can be dealt better without government intervention. Haj subsidy is just one of them. Sometimes I feel the same, when farmers claim relief from the government when their crops are damaged by the natural calamity. How much money governament can give ? Even when it gives, it will not match up the loss they have undergone. In other countries formers will go for insurance so that they are reimburssed fully in the case of accidents. Similarly diesel subsidies, though intention might be genuine (for trucks and trains which do mass transportation of essential commodities), what about diesel cars which are exploiting the price difference ? What is the amount that is spent on these subsidies and relief? Instead, our banks need to float different schemes for different circumstances.
    Haj deposit could be one. When someone collects enough money along with the interest from bank (Malaysian case), he can go for pilgrimage. Similarly an insurance policies for farmers.

    Making such unpopular decissions needs a gutsy leader. Do we have any ?

    [Reply]

    Suraj Reply:

    I want a leader who would say, no more free electricity and water in state. No more 1 Rs/2 Rs per kg of Rice/Wheat slogans. No more oil price subsidy for private use vehicles and no more Haj subsidies. But unfortunately I count for only 1 vote.

    [Reply]

    KULDIP Reply:

    Subsidy of any kind is bad. I donot know when we will start walking our own legs instead of the borrowed one and that too for praying our beloved God. I can not think of. Why govt. pays only because they are scared of minorities due to vote bank.

    [Reply]

    Swinder Singh Reply:

    Emphatic and convincing comments!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Swinder

    Unfortunately it just makes no difference to the Great Man with the CAUSE.

    Anil Reply:

    Did you notice the demand fo seed money as if we hindus owe sthg to maualans to subsidize their haz..

    Freakign stop thsi abomination on name fo secular india asap.. If u got money do haz if not do alla allah at home.. My money should not go in faciliatating the hoori seekers their heavenly abode

    [Reply]

  • ajay

    you understand that round trip won’t be non-haz (peak) rate of 18000

    [Reply]

  • Jaya

    Hi Zia,

    I would love to read your take on the grand mosques of Mecca and Medina. what do they stand for, what is inside these mosques and why is it medatory to visit them during HAJ when as per my understanding, worshipping of any symbols/statute/places/graves is haram in Islam.

    Appreciate, if you can share you take on the same.

    [Reply]

    fauzia Reply:

    This is in reply to Jaya. She must be an educated person. Ignorance is the root cause of all the misunderstandings. I would request her to read Qur’an, Its translation is available in almost all the modern languages spoken in the world. It would answer all her questions regarding Islam.
    Just for her information, Haj is not performed in the Grand Mosque in Makkah. It is performed in an open field called Arafat which is nearly eight kilometers from Makkah. There is no special prayer for Haj. Just being in Arafat on the 10th of Zil Hajja (the last month of the Islamic calender) is what is called Haj. Muslim men and women wear Ahram and offer regular prayers and seek forgiveness from Almighty God.
    The Ka’ba inside the Grand Mosque is not worshiped. It’s a symbolic place around which Muslims circumambulate seven times. It is called Tawaf, which is done to prepare for Haj and also done in ordinary times.
    The Haj congregation is the culmination of daily prayers that Muslim men and women are required to offer. Daily prayer, encouraged to be performed in mosque, is where they meet people of their neighborhood, weekly Friday prayer where they meet people of a wider area, say three to four neighborhoods, annual Eid prayer where they meet people of the whole city they are living in, and once in a lifetime Haj, where they meet the international community.
    Sister Jaya, just read these lines with an open mind and keeping your bias aside, if you really care for a healthy society. It’s high time we Indians develop the habit of mutual respect. It would strengthen us from within. And it would pave the way for us to lead the world.
    Fauzia, Jeddah

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Fauzia,
    Can your tell me why muslims get tonsured, wear white dholi like cloth, go around kaaba and get crazy for zam zam?

    This all looks very similar to brahmins who get tonsured, wear unstiched cloth, do parikrama around Garbhgraha and go crazy for Gangajal.

    [Reply]

    fauzia Reply:

    First a correction. Haj is performed on the ninth and not 10th of Zil Hajja. The “white dholi like cloth” is called Ihraam (two pieces of seamless cloths). Ihraam or Ahraam’s literal meaning is forbidden or holy. A person in the state of Ihraam is forbidden from any querrel or fight and gives up all the worldly pleasure until he or she comes out of the state of Ihraam. You are right. The dress has some similarity with Hindu saints. In fact an Islamic scholar the late Shams Naved Usmani of perhaps Rampur in India has written a well-researched book in Urdu “Agar Ab Bhi Na Jaage To” in which he has tried to find parallels between Islam and Hinduism. He has made a comparative study of Qur’an and Ved and found that many of the verses in the two holy books have identical meaning. Perhaps the book has already been translated into Hindi. But surprisingly neither the Hindu scholars nor Muslms have taken notice of the book which was originally published several decades ago.
    Fauzia

    Rajeev Reply:

    So why do you think so low of Infidels especially hindu?

    To me Hajj looks like very Hindu kind of affair..full of rituals and supersitions.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Fauzia,
    Is it true Mohammad prescribed Camel Urine as remedy for many ailments?

    This looks surprisingly similar to Hindu Brahmins nuts who think Cow Urine has medicinal value.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @faizia

    “I would request her to read Qur’an, Its translation is available in almost all the modern languages spoken in the world. It would answer all her questions regarding Islam”

    Well I have tried and it really answered all me questions about Islam but it has also resulted in emergence of a 100 questions about our future!

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Read the translation by Majid Daryabadi, approved by the Islamic site http://www.soundvision.com. You will know that terrorists are not at all misguided as the fake apologists like Zia claim! Instead they understand and follow the teachings of Quran to the core! They are the true Muslims! And any ‘moderate’ muslims are only ignorant about the lessons of Quran, they are potential terrorists awaiting a spark of faith in their cult. To borrow a quote from Mr. Ali Sina, “Just as a gasoline tank looks innocuous but transforms into an inferno upon meeting a spark, so-called ‘moderate’ muslim is also ready to transform into a mass-murderer mujahid once he is taught the true meaning of Islam by the mullahs”!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Fauzia

    Many thanks for referring the book “Agar Ab Bhi Na Jaage To”

    BTW what does ‘Jaage’ stand for in that book?

    Is that supposed to mean ‘high time Hindus realise their mistake and repent’?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    It means that muslims should realise their follies and revert to Hinduism.

    shan Reply:

    Are you aware Kaba and the pilgrimage existed long before prophet , and when will a islamic equivalent of martin luther appear in India, and release the Indian mislims from the religious colonisation of saudis. The same used to happen with holy(in reality pretty unholy) roman empire when the corrupt popes in rome used to fill their coffers by selling scolls in germany , buy it and all your sins are forgiven. Why cant we have a replica of kaba and mecca in India and save the subsidy to build schools for poor muslim children

    [Reply]

    ram Reply:

    Bravo, my boy! What a novel and noble idea! But don’t suggest this idea to any Muslim in your misplaced zeal. You will become internationally hounded like Rushdie by the ‘peaceful’ Muslims!

    Kishan Rao Reply:

    Your question is too funny to elicit any serious reply, as it implies that may be there are any symbols, idols, painting, images inside the Kaaba in Makkah or at the Masjid in Madinah. Those areas are completely clean and tidy, without any blemishes of this kind. The last resting place of the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) is inside the Masjid but not in the pray area – so when you prostrate it is before Almighty Allah, not before any grave / idol / image / object whatsoever. The Arabs of Arabia were idol-worshippers before Islam, but Hindus themselves began worshipping idols during the later period. This means idol-worship is not fundamentally a part of the hindu religion. So by worshipping idols, the Hindus are going against the dictates of their own religion, and following the Brahmins into hell in the bargain. What a tragedy!
    By the way, cancel the Hajj subsidy – it is not helping Muslims, only making non-Muslims more envious and jealous for nothing – and those Muslims who seek government aid to go to Hajj, they don’t qualify to go there as per the Quran – Hajj is a must only for those who can afford to do it on their own, without any loans, assistance etc. If you dont have enough money to do Hajj on your own, then simply do not do it – it is not compulsory for you at all!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Kishan Rao,
    Speak for yourself. There is nothing in Hinduism that prevents idol worship. I am perfectly fine with it. Only pompous know-it-all like you think that every Hindu who bows before an idol actually thinks that it would magically transform into a God. “x” represents a number in an equation; it doesn’t become a number itself. And, an idol does not have to be a physical entity.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Akash
    Careful, Rao’s every word seems to be straight from Dr Naik the great

    Akash Reply:

    Rao is just lazy and gullible.

    shan Reply:

    @Rao and Akash, there is nothing to be defensive about idol worship if you believe in worshipping anything. Swami Vivekanada was once asked by a maharaja in one of the principality in Rajasthan , how can he justify idol worship. Swamiji asked the maharaja to bring the picture of the maharaja hanging on the wall. When the maharaja brought the photo to swamiji , he asked the maharaja to spit on it. The maharaja was taken aback, swamiji said why this is only paper and some black chemicals not you in person. similarly when hindus worship idols they are conscious it is not god , but every body needs something to focus your mind otherwise it will wander around. The final proof is that they submerge the idol after the festival is over like durga puja and ganapati bappa moriya

    Sunit Reply:

    Hi Zia,

    I had no idea that Air India sustains itself only because of people travelling for HAJ.

    May be you can enlighten us on other PSU’s who sustain on such activities alone.

    Thanks

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Sunit

    @Sunit

    You seem to be quite fresh Sunit.

    Stay a bit, you might lean that everything you consume here in India is the mercy of Muslim Countries (Gulf countries) and Indian Muslims.

    Stay longer and you will become a devotee of the religion called ‘SECULAR INDIA”, Don’t ,miss the opportunity to receive direct, fresh and divine revelations from the presiding deities of that great faith.

    [Reply]

  • Munzarul Haq

    Hi,

    I would be g8 idea to call off the subsidy in-order to stop others from lashing Muslims with taking all the undue advantage & Muslim appeasement . It would be good idea to float a tender & invite the int carrier to offer a competitive price to the Haj Passenger through HAJ committee.

    Good thought put g8 idea.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Munzani

    The govt shoul not be involved at all. And by the way, if govt ends up payiing, I rather it be paid to an Indian company.

    No tender, no committees, no collection, no administration etc etc

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Munzani

    No so GREAT, till you back off from demanding thee year’s of subsidy (appx. 3000 crores) in SEED CAPITAL .

    [Reply]

  • nakul

    PIA is also loosing money, why does not Pakistan – a muslim nation – do the same ?

    Your logic is very wrong man…..

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    the Logic is DIVINE

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    The only way Muslims will relieve themselves out of their backwardness is by getting rid of all suibsidies and special minority rights and privileges. These so called rights and privileges make them more backward, make them pawns under political leadership. Be like others (Sikhs, Christians etc), work hard, achieve, accomplish..Sky is the limit.. Forget all special giveaways

    [Reply]

    ismail Reply:

    ya very true. Consider the case of brahmins in tamilnadu. From 1967 they faced oppsoition and hurdles from dravidian parties with 69% reservation. If a brahmin want to get good educaion and job ,he has to come out with distinction. Otherwise no hope. How much they got pushed to the wall,they came out with flying colors. Muslims dont need appeasment ,only equel level playing feild.

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    At one time in INdia muslim rulers used to levy tax on Hindus for their pilgrimage,what an irony we are still paying for their Haj collectivly.

    [Reply]

    Nationalist Reply:

    Its called inferiority complex or loser hindu mentality. Am sick of it.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Nationalist

    Why don’t you get some treatment from the Pious

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    The reason is our Gandhiism- ‘if someone twists your balls, go ahead and ask him to bang your ***’! After paying up the Jaziya for 1000 years, we are now funding their Haj and Zia believes he is bailing out the Air India!

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Sabir

    Dear All,

    The blog is all about the subsidy which is being given by Indian Govt. Why Govt is not going forward and scrap all the subsidy for Hajj??
    One major reason is the assured 1.5 Lac people who compel to go to Hajj by Air India..
    This is a very good Idea to stop subsidy and allow Haj committee to launch a tender worldwide.. It will help Rajeev and the people of his mentality to stop criticizing the Muslims.. Rajeev does not want to see around and made himself blind from real issues of India..

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    .

    @Azhar

    “One major reason is the assured 1.5 Lac people who compel to go to Hajj by Air India..’

    STOP THE LIE.

    Who compels you? Who?

    SOME 47,000 Muslims went for Haj during 2007 without going thru Haj Committee. What stops the remaining 110,000 from being equally Pious?

    Read this: from Public information bureau
    http://www.pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=30678

    [Reply]

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Well, in case we didn’t know, the inhuman Indian Army compels the pious and peaceful, angelic Muslim brothers to travel by Air India through brute force! And though Muslim brothers are actually the most advanced species in the course of evolution (sorry, Quran does not condone that dirty word ‘evolution’) and all the major inventors, scientists, musicians, writers and all Nobel Laureates are Muslims, the devilish Christians, pagan Hindus and violent Buddhists of Bamiyan have conspired to rob them of the riches they deserve! The Shariah is the most perfect way of life as we can surmise by looking upon the uplifted and liberated societies of the great nations like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Middle East including Palestine and Iran! And they are nothing but the beacons of religious tolerance as evident in their compassionate acts inspired by the truest love for all mankind, like 9/11, 26/11, 7/7 etc, etc. Oh sorry, I forgot, it’s the Jewish and Hindu swine who committed these dastardly acts! I swear in the name of Mohammad (who loved children, esp. girls) and Allah, these Kafirs are really very bad people, but we Muslims love them so much that we try to rid them of their miserable idolatrous lives on this earth and send them to Allah! Sorry I’m digressing!

    Let me come to the crux of this discussion. And, much like our holy and ‘peaceful’ Quran, this is THE FINAL verdict here. Why are we poor honest nation-loving Muslims being persecuted in this fashion by AI and this barbarous Indian Government? Shouldn’t visiting the Haj be the birthright of all of us sacrosanct Muslims? How tyrannous is this to ask us to pay one-fourth of the bill! I say, for the favour we are doing these impure Hindus and other Kafirs by bringing back some purity to this dirty Indian land from Mecca and Medina, shouldn’t the Govt. waive off the entire bill?
    – A very distressed and persecuted, apprehensive, peace-loving pious Muslim.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Zia

    I am just wondering whether Journalists writing Blogs for the newspapers they work for, are supposed to comply with any standards ? Any code of ethics? Any values? rules, guidelines?

    Basically anything other than those for which judiciary or law enforcement can be activated? Or are these blogs meant to be used for pamphleteering of the roadside variety?

    To say it as it really is, Zia’s blog can only be described as use of HT’s brand name for propagating the phony story of invented grievances.

    This man can just go on repeating the same untruths time and again, TRUTH and FACTS are no more than unfortunate distractions for him, which are simply to be ignored for the Great Cause and the cheap Pamphlet must be published by HT.

    On top of all that, he has the cheek to use words like Economics and economies of scale? Do you have any clue ? Any? Whatsoever?

    Let me reproduce my response to Mr Zia’s previous assertions on this subject (which BTW have been reproduced here in this article again) http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/they-call-me-muslim/2010/02/28/budgeting-for-minorities/

    “For a moment, even if we accept that fraudulent claim, what changes Mr. Zia? Muslims are still getting a subsidy, aren’t they? Or can you book a return ticket for Patna-Delhi-Jeddah for Rs.12000 (or Rs 16000 for last year only)? Bulk discounts? Yes why not, we will see later how much difference your direct chartering can make. Unfortunately facts happen to be facts and if they are communal so be it (in the meanwhile Mr Zia could check whether direct charter negotiations were attempted at some point of time or not and what went wrong). Here are the facts: 1. It isn’t 150,000 prize customers in the first place, the number for 2010 is more like 120,000 and that after annual increases of the order of 10,000-15,000. approximately 50% of that is carried by Saudi airlines.

    2. Spare/standby aircrafts are a part of any commercial airlines fleet, but they are primarily used when regular aircrafts are sent for scheduled or unscheduled maintenance. Haj means 2-3 months of a steep peak forcing most of the commercial airlines to opt for short term leases, called wet lease. Being short-term, they are by definition much more expensive than longer leases. It does not take an Einstein to understand that the capital cost of the wet leased aircrafts will have to be recovered from the passengers who fly during that peak window. For e.g. If you look at the state electricity boards, their normal procurement costs (for the pool) will rarely exceed Rs 4-5/unit. But during peak months, the incremental power is often purchased at Rs. 10-15/unit range. It matters, but little, that your requirement for those few months constitutes a huge volume, the annual fixed cost will still be recovered during those two months. Further, it seems that many of the aircrafts have to undertake one trip without passengers (i.e. no backhaul)3. If AIR INDIA was really saving itself by grabbing the prized Haj Service, why does it keep on requesting the Govt to allow other airlines in the space? Isn’t that Monopolistic, Mr Zia ? Last publicly known attempt was around 2008. http://www.financialexpress.com/news/haj-subsidy-has-air-india-fuming/360651/04.

    BTW Muslims anyway have the option of not going through Haj committee and a large number of Muslims actually go through private tour operators (~ 40,000 or so), so why are suffering the tyranny of AI? Why? Especially when it also gives the so-unfair-stick to Hindutva Guys ? ” Unquote

    If Zia had ever bothered with anything other than his single minded propaganda, he could have checked Air India’s annual reports. What would you find?

    That Charter Revenue-Haj and Charter expenses-Haj are shown separately. Charter exp. typically add up to ~67% of corresponding revenue in 06 and 71% for 07. Now, apart from cancelling some of its schedule flights, it always has to go for Wet Lease or ACMI (aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance borne by Lessor) of aircraft for Haj. In both of these it is the Lessee (AI here) which pays for Fuel (apart from some other expenses).

    Typically fuel and oil expenses in case of AI are typically 35-40% of total revenue (34% for 06 and 38% for 07). Note the Oil expenses in case of ACMI are borne by Lessor, so in case
    Haj, Fuel costs may be slightly lower than the 38 or 34% shown above, but that is just a small detail. The BIG detail is that Fuel expenses as % of revenue, is bound to be much higher for Haj flights simply because one leg is flown without passengers i. e. No Revenue but substantial fuel expense.
    Even if we ignore the empty flying, haj charter expenses and fuel add up to more than 100% of charter revenues.

    What economics, Zia? Great Fun, Fighting Islamophobia and getting ____ forget it.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    I must say that Zia is doing more harm to his cause by writing such dubiously researched articles. Unfortunately, that is a reflection of the standard of journalism nowadays, in general. People think that all you need is a good style and it can carry the day even if there is little basis for your claims. I am disappointed that Zia hasn’t even done some basic research. Previously too, without any basis, he proclaimed that he had strong reason to believe that India is staging terror attacks in Pakistan, though from where did he get this divine knowledge, one can only guess; Akashvani (no pun intented) I guess.

    Thank you for your extended and informative reply. It would also help if Zia could respond to some of the claims here.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Phoojari flip flop,
    How come you are against subsidy for hajj? Are you not offending you muslim Jijaji?

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev “makkhi-mar” singh,

    I don’t mind my jija being a Muslim as long as he had more grey matter than you, but then, that is not asking for much. One can set up a trap anywhere and find a dozen people with more brains than you. There is a famous lesson from Jatak Kathayein or Panchtantra(which I am sure you have no idea about) that a wise enemy(assuming all Muslims are my enemy) is better than a foolish friend(assuming all Hindus are my friends.) If that is beyond your limited faculties, I am sure you remember the story about the king who had a monkey as his best friend. That monkey strangely seems awfully similar to you. I guess, the theory of evolution doesn’t work in all cases.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash laundiya,
    Are you referring yourself as Makkhi?
    Enough of jatak tales..You will probably sleep with your muslim Jijaji provided he has more grey matter than me.
    Which grade are you in?

    Akash Reply:

    “You will probably sleep with your muslim Jijaji ..”
    Hmmm…Now I understand your deep rooted anti-muslim bias. I am so sorry it happened. It must have been traumatic. I bet it has left its scar — quite literally. I know you must be reminded of it every day but I suggest you consult a doctor and get rehabilitated soon. Plus, as difficult it may be, try not to color your views about an entire community due to misdeeds of one person.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Laundiya,
    So did you sleep with your Jijaji? Your another Jija Kasab is ready for your sis.
    You are suffering from stockholm syndrome. You have now started sympathising with your tormenter muslim Jija. Get yourself checked into trauma center..you need therapy.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    Your new muslim Jijaji involved in Time Square plot is waiting for you.

    Akash Reply:

    Hmmm, looks like the wound runs deep. No wonder those references to Bacchabazt et al. earlier.

    Don’t copy and past man. Come up with something original. Apart from laundiya, which I am sure you don’t what it means, you have just copied verbatim what I have written. From your replies I am getting a good idea about your much vaunted family background etc. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, as they say.

    The Times Square idiot resembles you more than anyone else: stupid, humorless, bumbling, and no doubt, fond of boasting his family connections and their sacrifice etc. etc.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Behenji,
    I know your wounds and reason behind your love for muslim Jiju.
    Looking from your post, I can say for sure you come from family of G*andus. You have to be utterly stupid to fall in love with muslim jiju.
    However I am committed to saving honor of girls like you.
    Love you sis :)

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    So you call your sis(behenji) as laundiya? Sad..In our Indian culture, sisters are given more respect than being called names like that. With guys like you around, sisters should worry about their honor.
    Grow up. You are getting monotonous.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Behenji,
    Yes, I respect sisters like you but I’d love to point out that sleeping with enemy can never be condoned.
    You need to grow up and realise that girls like you are hell bent on selling this country..
    Tera pyara Bhaiyya
    Rajeev

    Akash Reply:

    Shed your diapers, Rajeev.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Your are an unfortunate “Internet Hindu”, one among many who have distorted both Hindusim and Islam. That’s your sad story. Not a word more for a response.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Zia

    I am not sure whether you meant ‘ME’ or someone else.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Oooh how I missed this gem?

    Firstly, we should pay Rs 3000 Crores in Advance to enable the Pious experience an uncomplicated and unblemished Haj.

    But what happens to the ‘Subsidy Saved’ ?

    “The subsidy money saved by the government, or a major part of it, should instead be used to finance the ministry of minority affairs. The allocation will not just be enough to run the ministry’s non-plan expenditures but also help it considerably widen its welfare schemes”.

    Ooh I love the legal principle involved in this suggestion. Any Idea what is that principle?

    Once an Islamic land always an Islamic land. So once GOI paid Haj Subsidy, a perpetual Charge’ (for an amount equivalent to the forecast subsidy) is created on the consolidated fund of India, to be paid to the PIOUS every year by GOI. (Charge over here is what you give to the lenders who financed your home loan).

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    you obviously have missed the the “wood in the tree” :-)
    The fund creation is a Malaysian model; a country that has made majority-ism a fine art.
    You probably do not read HT at home; I do, live as I do in Delhi. So, I read this blog post first on HT paper; a day after Zia’s colleague (Jayanth Jacob) wrote that “In a move that is bound to be opposed bitterly, the government has set in motion a proposal aimed at phasing out the subsidy for Haj pilgrims, which worked out to Rs 826 crore in 2008.” Jacob wrote his piece on 10th April; and Zia wrote his hurried rejoinder a day later.
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/newdelhi/Muslim-leaders-back-cutting-Haj-subsidy/Article1-529806.aspx
    Read that, and there is really no difference between these 2 articles; in software industry, they call it “code re-use”.
    In a distant country, about 70 years back, a powerful man reporting to the most powerful man of the time, said something about repeating something enough number of times for it to become the truth.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    just wish to clarify,
    Quote: Read that, and there is really no difference between these 2 articles; in software industry, they call it “code re-use”.
    I meant there is hardly any difference between Zia’s article and his blog; in language or content.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Simply irrestible, guys if U are on Twitter must follow majorbuttretd – retired Pak army -brilliant Sense of Humour some gems:

    ‘Bollywood story. Seberated by bartition, Preet & Shahzad become US citijens. One becomes attorney & other a terrorijt. They meet in court…’

    Note His deliberately misspells. Another one on Shahzad (New York Bomber):

    ‘Jaish e Mohammed of courje!! Ordinary beepuls say no differenje – pakistanis are connoissuers. They sbot subtal variations.’

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    thanks..
    more azhar hussains elsewhere; swarm of them at Cutting the Edge..

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish
    Cutting the edge?

    Here I go. Apparently somebody has been banned from that blog?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    )-: yes

  • Gopi Thomas

    @SKS

    You are absolutely right that a future (secular) historian will write about how Muslims sacrificed and saved India’s flag carrier Air India.

    Actually it is not farfetched. I am seeing examples like that it in Kerala Govt Social studies text books now. The “moplah rebellion” (the violent Muslim conversions and property/temple destructions in Malabar at the tail end of Khilafet movement) is taught in high school classes as a legitimate agrarian revolution (communists sided with muslims to rewrite the etxt books; but alas, Muslims did not stick with communists). Tipu Sultan is taught as the “Tiger of Mysore”; with his infamous “padayottam” (where the first major conversion and temple destruction (and some church destruction also) through Malabar considered a subject that need not be looked into because he fought against the British.

    Generally, it is said History is written from the winner’s perspective. In India, it looks like the “constitutional safeguards” descends into history writing also; and especially with people like Romilla Thaper, there is no dearth fof people who constantly distort history (to appease).

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Gopi

    Well Moplah was where I came from.

    the word is ‘CONTEXTUALISATION’ / MULTI – LEVEL – PERSPECTIVISATION

    Secularising Tool

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash

    Opinions are what you disagree with, not with Facts.

    Perhaps you haven’t noted what I pointed out earlier: ‘To take his statements as genuine errors or mistakes, will require us to be imbeciles, simply because, much of what I wrote here had been conveyed to him on this blog itself in recent past’

    Second your reluctance with Muslim Appeasement, you ask how can we blame Muslims for that. Who can ignore such a gift?

    By all means do not ignore such gifts but what we have here is Mr Zia telling us there is NO SUCH GIFT and the GIFT, if any, is from Haj Piligrims to Air India!!

    I am surprised you don’t see the spurious agenda behind the Pamphleteering that’s been going on this site for so long. (Also there isn’t any idea from Mr Zia here, he is merely reporting it.)

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    “Opinions are what you disagree with, not with Facts.”
    I agree with you. In this case, however, we have heard about “facts” from both sides. I personally am more inclined to believe your argument, but until everything gets cleared by an impartial judge we have to hear arguments from both sides. Till then the “facts” are mere opinion. Nothing wrong with facts that you have mentioned, but can we be sure that it is sufficient to clinch your arguments. To belabor the point, there may be “unknown” facts that may tilt the argument is Zia’s favor. This is splitting hairs though.
    My reluctance with branding Haj subsidy as a Muslim appeasement was in the larger context of how the mainstream society sees it, not with cerebral jugglery of Zia to paint it one way or another. Zia is entitled to his own views(opinion). In this particular reasoning, he is not alone. Now as to whether there is an agenda in what he says, that is a purely subjective opinion. It may happen that Zia expostulates topic that fall in grey areas. If Zia has an agenda, well, we can counter it just as you have done. In this too, he is not alone. Anyone who writes has some sort of agenda whether spurious or genuine. I am not aware of any writings that are completely agenda free.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @akash

    “I am not aware of any writings that are completely agenda free” .. Do you mean only blogs or any writing? It is a far fetched statement if you include all writing.

    SKS always has presented both sides and articulated why one argument “wins” based on the unquestionable facts. Of course, he laments “cry, my beloved country”; and he has many cohorts on this; me included.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Gopi,
    My comments about writings being driven by agenda/purpose was related to this blog. A mathematical treatise cannot be said to have an underlying agenda unless we expand the meaning of word agenda as it is commonly understood.
    I have never doubted SKS’s love for his country; neither do I have any cause to doubt Zia’s love for his country. What I am not sure is whether Zia or SKS arguments are all that is there to it or are we missing something. To doubt is also a patriotic thing.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Akash (u are quite broad as ur name suggests!)

    To be frank, I am yet to decipher what Zia’s views are; he dablbes on “both sides”.

    In one blog, he will write about why Muslims should renew, and cannot go on complaining
    and blaming others (and then a twist, that all this is possible within Quranic preescriptions..).

    In another one he will write that others are to be blamed.

    In one blog he will write about how some fanatical mullahs trigger terrorist tendencies in impressionable minds. And in another he writes about what a wonderful place (which it may be) Deobandi school is. With its syllabus and courses (published on the net), it simply cannot be a wonderful place training new builders of Islam or community or country.

    Welcome to the blog; look forward to.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Gopi,
    “To be frank, I am yet to decipher what Zia’s views are; he dablbes on “both sides”. ”
    So, we do agree that there is a problem with labeling Zia’s blogs as having an agenda when we aren’t sure what the agenda is. I don’t think there is any need for confusion on that score. We all have multiple identities. It’s only natural to feel strongly one way and then another way when confronted with a different set of ideas or situation. The trouble is with our own preconceived notions that condition us subconsciously to expect people to behave in a certain way. I was also stunned when I head encomiums about Deoband from Zia. It’s a benighted place, but I do believe that it should have a voice. To ban such places is to force them to go underground, which gives them a legitimacy that is hard to confront. Nothing makes those self-appointed guardians of faith more uncomfortable or stupid than being challenged in public and made a fool of. Simultaneously, it also makes them answerable to the public at large. That said, I agree that there is a problem with my logic. Our worthy neighbor has allowed all these sort of yahoos a free reign, with disastrous consequences.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash/Gopi
    Well. The scene is slightly different: Mr Zia has made assertions and I have challenged his assertions. Does it occur to you that Mr Zia hasn’t taken the trouble of responding ?

    Aren’t you giving far too much weight to those assertions, which Zia himself does not consider worth defending?

    Secondly, it is a blog, and I don’t know where do you have impartial judges issuing decrees on True and False statements. The way it works is as follows:

    If you think his assertions are true then automatically mine are false. Now, there is a simple way to confirm that- run a few google searches and check it out on your own. In case you do not have enough time to do that, then you should simply refrain from commenting about those issues.

    But, an easier way out for you is to ponder over this : Zia made similar assertions a couple of months ago and I challenged each of those claims at that time also. Now instead of responding to my challenges, Mr Zia waits for a couple of months and repeats the same nonsense in another article and when challenged again, he again goes to silence mode. Why?

    Think, It isn’t about opinion, and just because there may be many more with same opinion does not make Zia’s article less trashy.

    As for the word Agenda, you are probably missing the context. As Gopi pointed out, every piece of writing has a (or more ) purpose, but when you call that purpose ‘an agenda’ you are making a slightly different point.

    Yes, my claim on existence of an agenda is a subjective opinion, but not a wild speculation, when you take into account the introduction note on this blog and the kind of stuff that has been written over here during the last year or so.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    The Supreme court, if I am not wrong, ruled against removal of Haj subsidy. Surely, they were not in for appeasement of any sort. Your arguments/reasons are persuasive. What I am not sure about, and I have repeated this before, is if you or Zia can claim that you have presented all the facts. So your point that any arguments you present vis-a-vis Zia has to fall within the rubric of true/false is slightly incorrect. To do so is to be absolutely sure that what you and Zia have presented is all what we need to know. Google, as excellent a tool as it may be, is not believed to be an all-encompassing research tool.
    If I remember correctly, Zia has also recommended not listening to mullahs while framing government policies about minorities. So I am not sure if I can completely agree with you that (idle)pamphleteering is the sole agenda of this blog. There is room for doubt on that assertion of yours. Now, that shouldn’t be taken as an signature of my approval of everything what Zia says. I took grave exception to his ludicrous claims that he believed India was behind the troubles in Pakistan. The trouble is when some people(namely goofballs like Rajeev) tie that to his being a Muslim and lazily conflate the two. All I am saying is that we should be asking ourselves whether our response to Zia’s claims would be as acrid if he were a Hindu.

    I agree with you, however, that Zia should respond to serious claims. Unfortunately, the atmosphere has been fouled by nutcases like Rajeev, Sajeev, and their many clones. It’s understandable if Zia feels offended enough not to respond. There is a limit to patience and civility.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash
    This is limits now, Zia sahab won’t respond because he is offended !! Ever wondered why this did not result in Zia sahab simply stopping to blog?

    What do you think? To say Mullah shld be ignored by Govt makes him some great reformer? (‘Mullah is the problem’ is a great safety valve) That precisely is the argument peddled by our secular stars. I doubt, if even Amresh Mishra (‘26/11 is a RAW-CIA-Mossad Job’ Fame) will diagree with that! (Only ones who would are Laus and Mulayams). U are on thin ice.

    Sadly, the limits you go to in defending Zia’s innocence is hardly surprising. Those familiar with the morality and the intellectual vacuity of our secular India won’t be surprised.

    Enough said! The case is clear enough for those who want to see. For the rest it does not matter anyways.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    It’s sad that one cannot have a discussion without being pigeon holed one way or another. We don’t have to agree 100% to be ratified as being “right” sort of secularist or any label you choose to wear. I don’t remember mentioning Zia as a great reformer. In that area he has been, sadly, quite disappointing. But, why blame him alone. It’s a common subcontinental trait: don’t rock the boat, sab chalta hai. I was quite surprised when he argued against banning of burka on dubious grounds of freedom of expression.
    “Ever wondered why this did not result in Zia sahab simply stopping to blog? ”
    Actually, no. It’s very simple. Have you looked at the number of responses his blog generates compared to other ones, even on topics where he has taken a facile and a lazy view? It’s such an ego boost when you know that there are at least 100 people who are going to spend hours discussing something which you wrote while changing your baby’s diapers. I am sure a lot of us take time off work to wrack our brains on these discussion. For some people whose names I decline to mention, it’s full time job.

    [Reply]

  • http://chamadi.co.in Delhi Escorts

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    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash
    This is something:

    He won’t respond because he is OFFENDED! But his ego is satisfied with the number of comments that is made!! So he keeps on writing nourishing his ego while maintaining ‘I am offended’ posture..

    >>I am sure a lot of us take time off work to wrack our brains on these discussion. For some people whose names I decline to mention, it’s full time job

    Whether some people spend all their time or none of their time is secondary, more important is that those who wish to engage in serious discussions are well informed on the subject.

    >>To do so is to be absolutely sure that what you and Zia have presented is all whe at we need to know.

    No, I am rather confident that there are HAZAR ‘other’ things. For example, we need to see the fleet composition of AIR India vis-à-vis competing airlines catering India-Jeddah routes. Their type, age, fuel consumption, speed, spares management , maintenance philosophy and practice etc. There are also issues of flight schedules, whether the airports involved apply tariff differentials for peak and non-peak hours and then compare AI’s schedules with competing ones. Where is the fuel being purchased from, local taxes can change the cost economics of one vs another. Crew deployed, their age profile, their service conditions, salary structures, bonus formula of the airlines. Foreign exchange can also cause differences, Saudi Currency is simply pegged to USD, not so with India. We also need to see credit rating of SA and Indian Governments, as that would impact the cost of debt that is raised for financing the aircrafts, then monetary policy of the two governments and the kind of impact it has on interest rates and exchange rates etc.

    It is obvious that the only correct answer to your demand for ‘Nothing-Missed’ warranty is NO and we are not dealing with some exception thing here. The answer would be a “NO’ on almost everything.

    But what is not so difficult to see is that the total cost of providing the service is a sum of Capital costs and O&M Costs. What should already be clear from my first responses is that Charter hire expenses and Fuel expenses add up to quite a huge proportion of the corresponding revenues and the story on charter hire and the differential in fuel consumption (normal flights vs. zero revenue return trips ) has been given in adequate detail (certainly not all) to reach a reasonable conclusion.

    A bit of digression here: nearly all the Muslim chronicles of India’s Islamic age have gleefully recorded (as they saw and understood it, being there and then) the pious feats performed by the Gazis. But for our secular historians the FUN of history is to read Between the lines. Surely what is between the lines can throw additional light on the subject, but our historians (mis)use the in-betweens to simply negate what is in the lines, consistently , every time.

    I saw something similar, in the way you have tried to find ‘reasons’ for Zia’s failure to respond, instead of the failure itself. That is why the Secular label, although I could have done without that.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    Since we have digressed a bit, I’ll try to explain here why facts may speak differently to us. You have brought the issue of Muslim chronicles. I agree with you that with very few exceptions, most of them take delight in recording the murder of infidels. Even the renowned Al Beruni, though his tone is more factual, gives a lame justification for the doings of Ghaznawi. In the same breath, however, he empathizes with the hostility of Hindus towards Muslims. So, what should we conclude then? As a professional historian, you are concerned with facts, not with conflated theories, and it’s you job/duty to read between the lines to get a complete picture. Otherwise, you risk being a propagandist rather than a historian. Whether the emotions of the chronicles were joyous or poignant is really not relevant to the historical reconstruction. For example, does the obvious glee of the Muslim chronicles(I am being lazy in clubbing all of them) translate into an accurate picture of what the general muslim populace or the ruling class felt in those times.
    The loudest noise is made by the fringe elements. I must say, however, that some historians go to ridiculous lengths to be “objective”(a much maligned word). Nevertheless, we should not allow a few of those missteps to form a complete opinion of those historians. For example, one of my favorite historians, Jadunath Sarkar, is being apparently reevaluated and some circles claim that he was biased towards the English. I can find some sorry references for ‘natives’, but overall, I have found him to be an excellent source. Ditto for Irfan Habib. He stretches incredulity when he claims some things about Qasim, but on the whole, he is an excellent source of medieval India. I do believe, however, that the public should be made aware of the facts as much as possible. I am not a votary for left or right historians. Both sides do a great disservice by selectively publishing or withholding historical facts.
    “I saw something similar, in the way you have tried to find ‘reasons’ for Zia’s failure to respond, instead of the failure itself.”
    I do give a lot of leeway before forming an opinion. That’s just a personal trait, borne out of my own doubts. I envy people who are always so sure.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash
    ‘the hostility of Hindus towards Muslims. So, what should we conclude then’

    I am confused, did you mean al-Beruni emphasizes or empathizes? What I remember from Al-Beruni’s accounts, was more like ‘emphasizes’ and in that case what do you expect Akash?

    A people whose whole way of life is subverted, everything they cherished destroyed, their leaders and protectors humiliated, massacred by invaders from a distant country are expected to organize family get-togethers for welcoming these Invaders?

    True picture of Ruling classes or ordinary populace? Really!
    You will do well to remember that the larger part of what we have today in the form of Objective, secular and mainstream history is a story of Kings, their policies and their men.

    You also seem to be way off the mark when pointing out the glee or poignancy of those chronicles and BTW what makes you claim these were fringe voices? My point is, read between the lines but doing that cannot mean negating whatever those lines have to say in the first place. Historical Facts have to be given, you can write thesises on what caused those events as much as you wish, but deny the facts itself?

    If you find a few records of land grants for temples by Aurangzeb, you go dancing to the town singing we told you, Aurangzeb was secular, then why not even write a line on his numerous farmans ordering destruction of Temples?

    Perhaps you haven’t noted the assertions regularly made by our Secular historians about the hindu temples. One recent example is Prof Harbans Mukhia:
    “As a historian I want to say that there was no Mandir in Ayodhya at all. Before 19th century there was not even imagination about the Mandir there but only after that it was propagated. No historian has written that Mughal emperors used the means of conversion for extension of their government. It is totally baseless that they brought down thousands of Mandirs and forced people to accept Islam”
    http://www.twocircles.net/2010mar29/there_was_no_mandir_ayodhya_19th_century_prof_harbans_mukhiya.html

    Even if you don’t want to accept what Ayodhya has meant to Hindus, how do we explain Ayodhya’s description in Ain-e-Akbari, which lists it as a major centre of Hindu Pilgrimage even at Akbar’s time? Is Prof Mukhia telling us a Major Pilgrimage didn’t even know what a Temple is leave aside having real temples?

    Can you imagine that the word Jizya is mentioned just once in all the chapters on Mughal history put together? Now shamelessly, we are told it was just a small tax similar to Zakat of Muslims, and was payable for not serving the army. I have seen at least two first-hand records of Jizya related discussions, one by Aurangzeb and another with Kutubddin Aibak in english translations of Persian texts. They leave no doubt whatsoever that the idea was to humiliate, to force hindus to convert but NO, it never happened. (In one case actually, a mullah was arguing with Kutubudin in favor of some mercy on Hindus by treating them at par with People of the book, that is let them live as Hindu on payment of Jizya) and then explains that in a sense Jizya is no different to death, tax rate shld be so high that Hindus don’t have a penny more than that reqd for bare survival).

    We are told every 6 months that Temple destruction, not that much of that happened, but the few which did were about power and wealth and nothing to do with religion. Yes it usually is, but you can’t claim that there was no Islamic motivation behind that. In fact I myself have read at least 3-4 cases, where the Muslim kings refused the offer of wealth as a consideration for not destroying the temple. In fact the response was what would I say on Judgment day? My name will be spoiled if I accept your offer and I have to ramp up the list of my pious deeds for hereafter.

    A recent peace I came across was trying to prove Muslim tolerance for Hindus. The story was abt some temple in Orissa. Aurangzeb sent a farman for destroying the temple. The rich hindus of the city paid a huge bribe to the local guy (obviously a Muslim) for saving the temple. So instead of destroying, he put a lock on the temple (public worship stopped, but some Bramhins were allowed to perform their rituals in absolute secrecy), which could be opened only after Aurangzeb’s death. Our historian says the fact that the local guy took money and kept his mouth shut shows how tolerant were the Muslim Kings! Really why not the greed of local guy and intolerance of Aurangzeb?

    Irfan Habib clearly has done some good work, but I have also come across his writings which fit perfectly into the Islamic Dream and Hindu Nightmare versions of our History.

    Anyway we have digressed to much and this is my last comment on this post, of course I will read your response.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    SKS,
    I meant “empathize.” If you calculate the probability of that being “emphasize”, it would be quite low. I am sorry to say but I doubt if you have read Al Beruni’s work. Its English translation is easily available. His reputation is well deserved. Ordinary mortals like us can only skim his works. One is apt to give him a bit of leeway because we must not forget that scientist or philosophers in those days were dependent on the royal patronage and some passages had to be added to satisfy their whims. He has in other places, mentioned idol worship disapprovingly but also given a humane treatment of the reasons behind it drawing parallels to other civilizations. He was given the title “Vidyasagar” by his Hindu peers.
    “A people whose whole way of life is subverted, everything they cherished destroyed, their leaders and protectors humiliate….”

    Since I explained things before, I don’t need to comment; nevertheless, your anger is understandable, but it is misplaced, for it is based on the assumption that there was something like pan-hinduism. Two centuries later, Prithvi Raj Chauhan faced a similar adversary. He lost. If pan-hinduism was alive, Jaichand would have come to his rescue. Even Ghazni had hindu troops that fought in his battles with Persians. Al Beruni mentions Tilanga troops that are speculated to come from the Andhra region. A few of his generals were Hindu. In any case, I doubt he would have had a huge horde to follow him to India if imposition of the faith was the entire motive. They could have gone North as well.

    Now your point about Aibak and Aurangzeb: Aibak was not a mughal ruler. The Mughals, with the exception of Aurangzeb, were remarkably cosmopolitan. To doubt that would be grossly unfair. As for Aurangzeb, I think his reputation as a bigot is well corroborated and the historians who take out little tid-bits to justify otherwise are jackasses. It is true that in the earlier part of his reign his bigotry did not come out in full force and, therefore, one can find some firmans here and there about temple construction. In fact, after this bigotry was translated into his ruling maxim, he had discontinued the court chronicles. So, I am not sure where do these historians form their opinion about all of his reign. A lot of it is speculative based on a few chroniclers, chief among them, Khafi Khan. He is unabashedly sectarian. The reason why some historian doubt Khafi Khan’s claims is that some European historians paint a slightly different picture.

    As for your demand of why we shouldn’t read the obvious, well, I would give you another example. Prithvi Raj Raso is a fabulous piece of work by Chand Bardai, but only the most credulous historian high on ganja would believe it as an ingredient for serious historical research.

    Plus, we err when we read history as a dead document, merely as a chronicle of events and dates. There is much to be seen in between the lines. The partition happened a mere 60 years ago. We haven’t yet decided who was the bigger culprit: Jinnah or the congress. If this is the state now, can you imagine the confusion 500 years from. We should take all the theories with a pinch of salt.

    I cannot comment about Ayodhaya. That issue has been discussed threadbare, and, frankly, quite boring. I doubt Harbans Mukhiya’s claim, but I would have be more sure before I can make any claims. And, yes, people who claim that the motivation behind temple destruction was just wealth sound even more stupid. They depict earlier Muslims in even worst light, that they were uncouth barbarians and dumb automatons merely driven by the love of lucre. That is just plain nonsense. How can they explain the destruction of Nalanda or the sack of Ujjain.

    I agree with you about the selective presentation of historical facts, as if we would get up and slay all muslims if facts were laid in front of us. That is just plain silly. Of course, before we get all worked up and start blaming previous generation of muslims for all the misdeeds in history, we should do well to remember that none of our hands are clean. Hinduism extracted a terrible price on the lower castes. Even now, we have likes of Sanjeev who defend our renowned Khap panchayats.

    Aurangzeb, for all his reputation, enforced bigotry for only 27 years. If you hold that against almost 300 years of Mughal rule, I would think that any impartial judge would say that we had it relatively easy. It’s also important to remember that Shias fared even worse at his hands. He was particularly vicious against them.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Archaelogical excavation ordered by the supreme court has conclusively proved there was a temple there, that is why decibels from the babri masjid action commitee and so called left wing historians have gone down.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash
    Bad I was tempted.

    You need not be sorry, it is true I haven’t exactly read Al Beruni, but have run through parts of it in bits and pieces (from the online translation by Edward Sachau). But, after your comment, I had another run thru, through the parts dealing with Hindu-Muslim differences.

    Hindu’s attitude towards Muslims was described by him as the “most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims’ and the reasons cited included; (apart from wonderful exploits of Mahmud), our national character, haughtiness, foolishly vain, self-conceited, narrow-mindedness, stolid etc.

    Given your self professed tendency to give ‘lot of leeway’ before making opinions, I am taken aback that you had reasons to disagree so vehemently with the use of ‘emphasize’ and insist on ‘empathy’, just because, he did not censure us for idol worship? Idol worship ? oh how reprehensible!

    >>the non existence of pan-hinduism ?

    I always thought that existence of Hinduism itself was a colonial invention, but now you talk of Pan-Hinduism ? is the debate moving ?

    But, you are wrong, Hinduism exists and has always existed, provided you are talking about the right things only.

    For example talk about caste!! the moment you utter this word, the ancient predator is uncoiled, the all embracing venomous organism; responsible for the worst and longest persecution in the history of mankind, poisoning everything that came near it, even the classless and powerful Islam.

    It is not just the truth of its non-existence which is transformed, but obligatory penances are also required from current generation of Hindus. Compare this with the zeal and the spurious moral authority, with which we are advised to not blame the current generation of Muslims for the ‘wonderful exploits performed; by their pious ancestors.

    Hindu-Muslim, Muslim-Sikh wars were always political, nothing do with religion. How could it be ? when there was no Hindu nothing like Hindu religion?

    But talk Buddhism and see the slimy venomous snake back in action biting, poisoning, devouring everything, which had anything to do with Buddhism. There are some fairly respected (not imo, which of course hardly matter) people today, who talk of Hindu-Buddhist relations as a 1000 year old war over religion!! While this story is on its way to become the most intelligible phase of our history, where identities were at their clearest, some secular jihadis have taken up another grand mission. This time to enlighten the Jains about how different and distinct they are vis-à-vis Hindus and how suicidal it could be for them, if they don’t stop considering themselves as Hindu!!

    Although, nowadays we do see a few sophisticated, less bigoted and less communist scholars (still strongly anti-hindutva the one credential that counts) charting a new course, pointing out the obvious, but I doubt they would make much headway. Sooner or later, they would have to change the track unless they are prepared to sacrifice their academic future.

    some really good arguments see these – Who Invented Hinduism? http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/asathaye/ancientindia/pdfs/lorenzenhinduism.pdf

    Inscribing the self, Inscribing the self http://www.tc.umn.edu/~cmedst/gmap/uploaded/Inscribing%20the%20Other%20Inscribing%20the%20Self%20Hindu%20Muslim%20Identities%20in%20Pre%20Colonial%20India.pdf

    Oh yes I should have mentioned Islamic kings in place of Moghul.

    Yes, one more thing about history of partition: we can go on finding new reasons or justifications but will that result in partition itself being erased from history and its consequences ?

    For heaven’s sake, don’t talk about the so called right wing history, because the so called right wing history is limited to some bland websites and a few books published by unknown publishing houses. There is hardly anything in the mainstream works of History which is comparable with the thuggery which has gone on in the name of writing progressive and secular history and whatever has survived this secularization is labeled as colonial historiography.

    [Reply]

  • prashantkumar137

    “To nobody’s surprise, the clamour is growing louder among Muslims to wind down the Haj subsidy.”
    So far, I have not heard even a single such voice, even from the rich Muslims! Did Gibreel come in your dreams to tell you this! Ha ha ha, what a hilarious lie, Zia!

    [Reply]

  • Gaurav

    This Zia is no more than an over ground propagandist face of Global Jihad. A part of the Jihadis blow you to bits and the other pretend to be your best friends and shed crocodile tears. Islam is on path towards Global Domination by all ways and means possible. The days of all non-muslims are numberd. Until and unless they wake up to the truth and take the bull by its horns. The only way for us non-muslims to survive and sustain our way of life is the complete annihilation of Islam and Muslims. To their last unborn child. Let no mercy be shown. The seeds are being sown for one final Muslim Holocaust.
    Come 2012 the seeds shall start bearing fruit. Let at all Muslims beware, death itself shall shudder, what we`ll do to them and there won`t be any stopping us. Here we come…..

    [Reply]

  • Akash

    SKS,
    Sorry for the late reply to your post, and thank you for the links. My reference for Al-Beruni is the same text by Edward Sachau published by National Book Trust. It’s an abridged version, though I doubt if the full text can lead to different conclusions.
    I am glad you went over the text again. I would have, however, preferred if you had read it in more detail. It’s not a massive tome. You have referenced the standard quotation found in most of the history books when it comes to Al-Beruni and Indians/Hindus. If you progress a few paragraphs, he also mentions that “The heathen Greeks, before the rise of Christianity, held much the same opinion as the Hindus…” Once again, I would encourage you to read the whole book. Reading in bits and parts gives a distorted view of the whole picture.
    Mahmud was his principal benefactor. It would be natural to expect him to indulge in Mahmud’s praise. Getting your head chopped off was a relatively easy thing those days. Don’t forget he also had to contend with the ever present Mullahs. I am not trying to defend each and every line of his, but it’s a little too much to expect him to be fair in the sense we know now. On the whole his writing is quite modern and refreshingly scientific.
    You haven’t read my post carefully. I did not argue for presence/absence of Hinduism. I was talking about Pan-Hinduism in the sense of a uniform Hindu feeling among the masses. We still don’t have it.
    “It is not just the truth of its non-existence which is transformed, but obligatory penances are also required from current generation of Hindus. Compare this with the zeal and the spurious moral authority”
    That happens with every majority community. In the West, the whites have to undergo a similar guilt for the faults of their ancestors towards blacks. But are you sure that the caste factor is truly buried. We still have a lot of people arguing the relative IQs of upper and lower castes and how intermarriages between castes shouldn’t be allowed.
    I have already mentioned my feelings towards suppression of historical facts, no matter how odious they may be. People who talk about war between Hinduism and Buddhism are guilty of overarching conclusions based on very few facts, but there have been instances where Buddhism and Hinduism have collided for political turf. Here I may remind you what was mentioned by Hueing Tsang on his travels in Northern India. He saw many Stupas and monasteries in woeful condition. Now, one cannot conclude that there was an active effort to demolish those stupas, but it was common that such large stupas and monasteries were sustained on the royal patronage and depending on the fickleness or religious leanings of the Kings, their grants were extended or withdrawn. It’s quite plausible that a lot of temples suffered the same fate during the Muslim rule. While the fanaticism of Muslim invaders was a factor in demolishing of temples, there was a definite political angle to it. Here again, let me put this situation to you: 500 years hence, if you were a historian how would you interpret the storming of the Golden Temple during Operation Blue Star — a political act or an act of Hindu fanaticism?
    My reference to Partition was not to indulge in the boring discussion of its validity. All I wanted to do was to give you an example of how “facts” may appeal differently to various groups and that too in case of a relatively recent event. In that sense, all historical reconstruction is approximate. We must be careful in interpreting historical facts not to color them with our own bias. It’s a tall order but that should be the goal.
    The reason really “right” wing historians are left to obscure websites is their astounding theories that have little basis in logic or facts. For example, a couple of years ago, the nonsense about Tejo Mahlaya being beneath Taj Mahal was liberally forwarded and I have heard many sensible people spew the same idiocy without any thought or justification. I have also read some so-called reputed historians proclaiming that the population of India decreased by some 60-80 million due to depredations of Muslims kings. That is just not possible. So while we should never ignore facts, due scientific procedure has to be followed in interpreting those facts.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Akash, why buddhism faded and hinduism envoloped entire india, is one of the profound mysteries of history.There is absolutely no evidence of any hindu aggression. My speculation is buddhism was way ahead of its time , it was more like a art movie , where as hinduism is karan johar massala movie , with lot of incredible stories about gods, rakshas, and million and one rituals and festivals. Buddhism is very intellectual , para aesthesitic. One of the theory behind the erotic sculpture in konarak is that people were turning to buddhism in droves thus to attract them the visual inducements.A srilankan chap narrated me an anecdote which partly supports my contention. He said in srilanka the area leading to the main buddhist temple where buddha is seated , is littered on both sides of the road with hindu gods and goddesses. Incerdible though it may appear , he said that (“srilankans, non tamil) seem to get stuck with these gods and offer pujas etc , completely forgetting buddha. A great appeal of Islam may lie in allowing to keep four wives , beat if they refuse sex , divorce with three words. If this sounds a bigotted rant , just reflect on the rancour in Afghan parliament all the laws that the men wanted to be enforced about women cannot refuse sex and cannot go out without the men’s permission. I invite your response.

    [Reply]

  • DUDE

    India, Hindu, jain, sikh, buddist please get rid of all muslims from india, pakistand and bangladesh and afghanistan…..and even iran……………..these lands bleong to the true people the ons mentioned above and the zoroastrians!

    reform…….please to what these jihadis bastardsss have been doing for 1400 years…convert them back by the sword or gun!…….. convert these insurgents back to their ancestral religions!

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Akash

    I am partly happy for being right but ‘too happy’ that we have people who think ‘Idol worship’ is reprehensible. So what if we are found to be haughty, foolishly vain, self-conceited, narrow-mindedness, etc, as long as one does not think of us as ‘too lowly’ Despite our idol worship, we should be overwhelmed with gratitude and I should have actually ‘Emphasized’ his show of empathy, because what can be more evil than idol worshipping.

    I understand now. Since we did not have a pan-hinduism, hindus did not suffer any atrocity.

    ‘But are you sure that the caste factor is truly buried. We still have a lot of people arguing the relative IQs of upper and lower castes and how intermarriages between castes shouldn’t be allowed’

    Who are these people? Any respected (even by right wing standards) names? Even if there are what is that got to do with current justification for reservation?

    That happens with every majority community. Oh that is why Muslims are entitled for a different standards vis-à-vis the Majority. But who exactly is this ‘majority’ community ? upper caste Hindus? I thought that are ~ 15-20%.!

    What is it that Whites are doing by way of showing their guilt? Reservations?

    You are only being clever by listing PN Oak as example of right wing history.

    [Reply]

  • sajid

    the muslim leaders who have been at the helm for decades have brought bad name to the religion .
    the comments posted in the forum shows that immediate correction have to be done. Muslim Do not require such subsidy.

    [Reply]

  • Gaurav

    You guys are just old farts and button pushers. makes me sad and sentimental hee hee. Anyways not here to debate your stupid issues. Telling you as a fact that come 2012 muslims shall start dying at the rate of thousand a day. Wish could increase the rate of processing but logistics come in way. You guys still do not get it. This all way beyond debating. we are going to take this to the brink. We are fine tuning our skills. A sample of which has been displayed over the recent years. That shall dwarf what we shall unleash come 2012. None of us gives a rat`s *** what becomes of the Hindus and India. The single point agenda is complete anihilation of muslims. As long as that is achieved we dont care if hindus perish too or the entire world gets engulfed in a nuclear third world war. We dont care if the entire bloody humanity persihes as long as muslims are eliminated. Thats the single point agenda, and to be sure we gnna get it, wait n watch … come Ramadan 2012 wen mecca goes up in a mushroom …..ud remember wat i was talkin about…..hee hee……Ciao

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @gaurav, please see a forensic psychiatrist, specialising in psychopathic personality disorder,
    immediate shock therapy to brain needed followed by lobotomy, if their is any functioning brain , otherwise only a brain transplant or a holiday in north waziristan with your views on this blog strapped to your chest

    [Reply]

    Gaurav Reply:

    HAHA how entertaining. u actually made me laugh geez thanx….. strapped with a suicide jacket too shall be nice…. nice touch….i hope you retain your sense of humour on jan 1, 2013. If youre still around that is…hee hee as i said button pushers….. talk talk n talk… we shall see about that.
    Time will tell.

    [Reply]

    Gaurav Reply:

    BTW have you ever cut a muslims throat? its just like cutting a lamb. makes the same kinda noise, withers around in the same fashion. nd you are like wats the big deal dude. try it some time.hee hee. Ask someone to cut urs if ur a muslim. One less for us to worry about. Ciao

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @GAURAV

    DO you realise that these kind of statements statements you made here

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @ Gaurav

    Had such statements been made by someone at any other place, he would immediately be either behind bars or in an asylum, subject of course, to results of his medical examination.

    That does not mean, it is OK here. One complaint and if nothing else, a preventive detention is certain. Admittedly, too little than actually deserved.

    [Reply]

    Gaurav Reply:

    Oh ur most welcome to do so,,,, Plz go ahead and complain……….. lets see wat u can do…… whatcha got. After that u`ll see what im about….. go ahead big boy u got me all scared.. m waiting….hee hee

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Gaurav a s s h o l e,
    Do you know your IP address can be logged and your computer traced?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.al-hidaayah.travel/ Umra

    I think tolerance is a virtue more practised in the breach by some than in its observance.

    [Reply]