Moderating Islam: Revivalism vs re-valuation



Worryingly, Islam remains a criticized religion. People tend to have a far negative view of it. A censorious view of Islam is worrying because it has a direct bearing on how Muslims are viewed and accepted.

More than 4 in 10 Americans (43%) feel “a little” prejudiced toward Muslims — more than twice the number with a similar feeling against Christians (18%), Jews (15%) and Buddhists (14%), a recent Gallup Center for Muslim Studies survey report (titled “Religious Perceptions in America: With an In-Depth Analysis of U.S. Attitudes Toward Muslims and Islam”) has found. Click here.

The report is being shared with high-level policymakers, religious leaders and academics by the Muslim West Facts Project (MWFP), a non-profit partnership between Gallup and the Coexist Foundation. MWFP disseminates key poll findings of Gallup’s Muslim Centre to opinion leaders.

The study, one among many, is surprising: It suggests that a year after President Obama’s thumping Muslim outreach attempt in Cairo, little may have changed on the ground. The bad PR continues despite some other positive Gallup findings, that Muslims admire the West for its democracy, freedoms and technology, and American Muslims as a whole are second only to Jewish Americans in terms of educational empowerment.

Muslims’ capacity to reconcile their faith to evolving realities — social, political and economic — continues to be seen as inadequate.

Though a complex interplay of global events, past/present history and instinctive media reportage, present-day Islam’s image runs contrary to some manifest Quranic values.

According to me, in the present-day context, the current crisis in this great monotheistic religion needs to be addressed through two sets of instruments — re-evaluation and re-valuation, as opposed to revivalism that has been, historically, very narrow-based. Such a contrarian approach is the only viable way to open the critical door, if Islam is to be rescued from ignominy.

Viewing Islamic value-based systems

As yardsticks, I will use Princeton University definitions of value, valuation and evaluation, within the present context, however, for clarity.

Unless expressed in financial terms, value is said to be an ideal accepted by some individual or group. Evaluation is said to be an appraisal of the value of something.

Valuation, on the other hand, is the estimation of the nature, quality, ability, extent, or significance of a value. According to a standard definition, a value system is said to be a set of consistent values maintained by an individual or a group.

There are two reasons why Quranic values are important to understanding Islam, which then may form the basis of how the religion is viewed. One, the Muslim holy book is central to a majority of Islamic values and, two, Islamic culture is said to derive from it.

In my opinion, there are two major negatively perceived (ascribed) Islamic values — Muslims are less accepting of other religions (widely known as Islamic supremacy) and Muslims are prone to violence. Obviously, they run against modern values.

Deep-seated as they are, these views make Islam look dangerous; Islamic revivalism more so. Though very active, Islamic revivalists or preachers have focussed on just a handful of key Islamic values, such as prayer and fasting, ignoring others.

The Tablighi Jamaat, an organisation of preachers founded in the 1920s by Mohammed Illyas, a Deoband graduate, has restricted its preaching agenda to namaaz (Arabic: salaat) and mosque attendance.

Unlike Deoband’s cleric associations, Illyas did not consider it necessary to belong to a formal ulama or clerics’ organisation in order to preach Islam. Instead, he attempted an informal grassroots movement to encourage religious renewal among Muslims.

Since the Tablighi Jamaat is mainly an organisation of voluntary associations, there is no central administrative structure or manuals to preach Islamic values. The preachers travel door-to-door, inviting locals to join them. They strongly emphasise piety and humility. Those inspired are encouraged to join them. In this way, it spread throughout the Muslim world.

Islamic revivalism has seldom touched upon issues such as Islamic supremacy and violence and the Quran’s position on such issues. Is it because it never felt the need to address these issues, as it did not consider them to be a part of Islamic values in the first place?

Notably, both the issues — religious tolerance and killing of innocents –are addressed by the Quran, which Muslims consider the very word of God and was revealed 14 centuries ago through Islam’s prophet Mohammed. The Quranic position on these issues makes a strong case for viewing it as a time-honoured faith in harmony with modern values.

In a specific verse (Chapter 6), the Quran clearly prescribes tolerance and respect for other religions, regardless of whether this Islamic value has been adhered to by Muslims.

“Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation have We made their deed seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return, and He will tell them what they used to do.” [Quran, Chapter-6, Verse 006-108] Click here

When taught in madrassahs across India, it is customary for clerics to translate it thus in Urdu: “Tum doosro ke khudaao ko bura na kaho, nehin to wo tumare khudao ko burah kahenge.”

Don’t scratch others’ backs; or else they will scratch yours, a religion founded 14 centuries warned. So, there is no basis for Islam to be considered inherently intolerant or to treat violence as a prescribed Islamic value.

The Quran’s Chapter 2, verse 32, prohibits killing of innocents (which can be appropriated to modern-day terrorism): “…whosoever kills an innocent, it is as if he killed the whole of humanity, and whosoever saves a life, it is as if he saved all mankind.”

Therefore, re-evaluation and re-valuation of Islamic values, as they exist in their nominal forms, is necessary to lift the fog.

How Islam is viewed has to ultimately do with actions Muslims take, regardless of whether such actions constitute an Islamic value. As God says in the Quran (13:11): “Truly, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.”

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  • L Mirza

    Revaluation or valuation, Is lam is the 900 pound gurilla in the room; Muslims have to decouple Islam and keep it at a personal level (like all others), and not drag it into governmental, societal, community, business, political organizationa nd structurings. The question is will Islam let Muslims free? Will Islam let Muslims adapt or force them to be always separate and exclusive? Will ISlam let Muslims pray and conduct ceremonies in local language (as Christian churches have done). The list goes deep

    [Reply]

    babbu Reply:

    never , my answer to you. lot of people have died and islam never changed and will never change till the end people start thinking what is wrong or right?

    [Reply]

    babbu Reply:

    islam is the religion who have no place for debate. believe it or get killed or raped which one you believe most. it is wastage of time talking and changing islam. ahmediya sect is better but they are considered non-muslims by majority

    [Reply]

    Dixit Reply:

    Very goo comment/view Mr. Mirza. This kind of thiking will make muslims free to grow like any other community. Does not matter whether God or Allah created you, he has given you mind to think youself.

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    prashant saxena Reply:

    This brings out a very important issue. Let the Holy book be translated into local languages so that the individual can read and understand it himself. Let the individual read a paragraph in totality to understand a verse in context, rather than have a single verse quoted out of context to promote violence.
    We must understand that the Holy book was written in times of conflict and there are bound to be references to violence, but they don’t apply anymore. So individual “holy” men shouldn’t be allowed to interpret individual verses to misguide people.

    [Reply]

    Dr. Sami Khan Reply:

    It is up to you what you see, if you have hate in your mind, heart, learning and dispositions…u can see Islam as a guerrilla…But the truth is that this religion teaches peace and peace only…love towards others. In fact, if any practitioner/believer of a religion doing an act of aggression, it doesn’t have anything to do with his religion. And two negatives don’t make it positive. If individuals are bad you are also doing the same by accusing their religion not them.

    Islam means PEACE…Salama… and that is of others. In fact, after the pray(Salah/ namaz in urdu) the prayer says assalam alaikum wa- rahamatullah, it means peace upon you. And this you is every creature past and present. You conclude your pray on this point. YOU don’t ask your well being rather other’s. WE have to understand Islam. But how? We should be tolerant and listen to each other. We need to have dialogue. This can help the social fabric to get strengthened in India or elsewhere otherwise it will create more problem. Distributive justice is also needed to be done towards uplifting Muslims in India so that they can play better role in the society.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Stop lying to urself mate when u preach jews are pigs apostacy deserves death sentence yada yada u are not preaching peace

    [Reply]

    Honey Reply:

    Dr.Sami Khan

    Islam means PEACE…Salama…

    Islam preaches peace, but peace of a graveyard. All over the world, peace of Islam is reigning.
    Very sorry, for you muslims

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Dr. Sami Khan
    I doubt you will see this, but I you do, please check out this : http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_downloads/resources/reliance_complete.pdf) sorry it is a 30 MB download but good thing is you can run search. Do that tell us what is Jihad, objectives of Jihad, ‘permissible lying’ and ‘misleading impression’.

    Then explain to us what should we understand from the word ‘Peace’ as used in your comment.

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    What the islamic scriptures say is not the only important issue- religious texts written several centuries earlier can be interpreted in many different ways- and the interpreation that is popular or acceptable at a given point in time depends on the political, social and cultural context. Some problems with islamic cultures or countries as they exist today-

    1. Islamic countries are the only ones that still permit polygamy, triple talaq and a host of other practices that are anti-women- even in many moderate Muslim nations personal laws are adjudicated through Shariah courts where the dice is loaded against women. Only (a few) Islamic countries still legally permit a barbaric practice like stoning women to death. I am not even talking about the Hudood ordinance in Pakistan or the crime of Zina- that is a horror story! When Tariq Ramadan- the famous Islamic scholar was asked in a television interview whether he unequivocally condemns stoning, he refused to do so. (He just said there should be a moratorium).

    2. The vast majority of Islamic countries imposes restrictions on freedom of religion. For example, a Muslim finds it nearly impossible to convert to some other faith- in many countries, the punishment for doing this is death. Islamic countries are the only ones to criminalize blashpemy (criticism of religion is permitted in most non-Islamic countries). and the punishment or jail terms for blashpemy are often pretty severe – many countries even apply the death penalty. The practice of certain types of religious beliefs like the Ahmediyas as often forbidden or severely restricted. Also, there is an emormous amount of legally sanctioned discrimination against minorities in the Islamic Middle-Eastern countries.

    3. Only Islamic countries legally sanction the dealth penalty for homosexuals- you could be executed just for the great crime of being gay. Muslims in the West complain about sterotyping and prejudice but they seldom speak out strongly in favor of more humane treatment of minorities in Muslim-majority nations. Muslims in the West sometimes react with violent threats (and actual violence) when their religion is criticized- freedom to critique established orthodoxies including religions is part of freedom of speech- a core Western political value.

    Prejudice and stereotyping is always unfortunate- we must recognize that there is a great diversity of views on these issues within the Islamic countries. But attributing all criticism of Islam to “Islamophobia” or lack of knowledge about Islamic scriptures would not be a balanced or constructive argument.

    [Reply]

    Salahuddin Reply:

    Yes Dear Mitra,

    Present Muslim political system are so corrupted that they indulge in such activities which is hard to explain.

    I don’t justify every self created issue of muslim world.

    But what is your opinion of Khilafat e Usmania (ottoman empire). As your point of view suggest me that you are well off with Muslim system then give some thoughts to Crusade, Zionism and HinduRashtra campaign by Brahmins. Hope you are not dalit.

    .

    [Reply]

    Mohinder Sood Reply:

    I live in America and I do not know any caucasian who has positive opinion about Islam and moslems.
    Fearing not to offend lest you turn out to be a muslim, they avoid any comments. Once they know you are not muslim, they freely share their views, which are always negative.
    They truly believe that teachings of Quran are anti humanistic and intolerant towards other religions.
    Your comment that Quran says not to bad mouth other’s God because then they will bad mouth muslim God is not tenable. Muslims believe in one God, then how come there two different Gods.
    In any case, I think religion was the greatest curse on mankind. Ever since the advent of religion
    especially Islam and Christianity, world has not lived in peace. They are just busy converting people to their faith.

    [Reply]

    Saad Reply:

    Having lived in Pakistan and gone to school. Found many teachers/maulvis were homosexuals always making advances towards students. I never heard of anybody being punished for being gay. The reason could be that the possible punishers overlooked because they were themselves gay.

    jaya Reply:

    This type of analysis is typical of those who hide behind intellectual analysis of the problems confronted by Islam. For practical purpose Islam and Muslims are the same. The question is how to stop them from hard wiring their believers into this muslims vs non-muslim mindset; from that main teachings of us vs them jihad, kafirs, and all the rest of hateful, fascist teachings follow. To make things worse ALL these teachings are in Islamic scriptures; scriptures that they do not want to change. This is a matter of neuro psychology. Islam/Mulsims have to be answerable to the world for what they hav done in name of their faith, forced conversion, genocide, ethnic cleansing, destruction of other faiths’ holy places, christian/ jew/ hindu/bhudhist. The only thing I can say is that there has to be a whole lot of reavaluation such as sorry! and we have fixed the problem ( changed the scriptures).

    Akash Reply:

    Saad,
    You can’t blame them, man. The only women they say are in burqa, and therefore, they are bound to be attracted to your beauty.
    :)

    US muslim Reply:

    Akash what about the hindu swamis who are having s*x with the indian women. Indian women as opposed to Pakistani women all show their skin, why can’t these swamis get enough of it and have to molest them to satisfy their lust.

    Akash Reply:

    Having sex is not bad per se. Duping someone or forcing someone into sex is wrong. I agree with you about those swamis. They are a bunch of assH***s..I was merely commenting upon what Asad was saying. He seems to have suffered at the hands (pun intended) of Maulvis..

    US muslim Reply:

    I live in America and I know many caucasions who have converted to Islam after 9/11 in our local mosques. They took the time to read the quran and they learnt that what Osama did is not why Islam teaches. Did you know that Shakeel O Neal, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Muhammad Ali are all muslim Americans and they have only brought pride to America.

    Honey Reply:

    Then congrats, plan some other big strike, this time the intensity should ten times more than that of 9/11..

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ muslim

    That because of people like you who entice poor and ignorant girls and then emotionally black mail her to convert to this f**king cultic faith..

    shame on your ignorance..

    Its love jihad

    Rajeev Reply:

    Most of the converts are social outcasts and criminals.

    Akash Reply:

    Salahuddin,
    Isn’t Ottoman Empire long gone? Even Turks didn’t think much about it. Stop being a cultural slave. Try reading a little bit about the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire and their treatment of Kurds, who, incidentally, are Muslims as well.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Go check Treaty of Tripoli between usa and Pasha of Ottoman empire.. You will know what kind of mercenary ttoman empire was and how they justified their gangsterism by Islam

    [Reply]

    Asad Reply:

    It’s not your fault dear mitra….
    Your opinion (Which is indeed incorrect) is just because you don’t have understanding of Quran.
    Quran has solution of every problem which we see around.

    [Reply]

    Anand Reply:

    One of them is JIHAD.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Asad,
    I am sure it has solution to every problem, except you. Try to indulge in a little bit of thought about ideas contrary to what you have been spoon fed, otherwise you do your religion a great deal of harm by sounding like a moron every time you open your mouth.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash is a muslim hiding behind hindu name.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev, in reality, is a modern day Shikhandi..
    :)

    shan Reply:

    @Asad Mia you have pnemonia, would antibiotics do or quoran. If you have appendicitis would you like to have your appendix out , can quoran tell us a cure for gallstones. If you are having problem with erection would you like viagra, or does quoran has better alternative. The arabs with its quoran had an infant mortality of fifty per hundreed after oil(read western civilzation renaissance, rationality) dropped to six per thousand.Do you see some light .

    [Reply]

    Jam Reply:

    Please see reply below. Thanks

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    I wish mitra you knew the richness of Islam. do you in ur relgion space for eunuchs? that shows the imperfection of your faith cuz there is no space fo such human beings.
    Let me also tell you that Muslims might be at the worst junction of time today, but i am so proud of my faith and love to die practicing my faith and serve humanity while i am alove. i wish you read the constructivist theory and you will simply declare yourself as criminal for blaming muslims for the voews brought about by capitalism.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Ali,
    I am delighted that you are so strong in your faith that you are ready to die for it. The problem is that you expect others to die with you.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    there is a difference between dying for and die practicing. u cant see the difference and therefore critique without a proper ground. i do not want others to die for something they dnt understand. Islam will flourish on its own all it needs is thinking human beings….

  • Randhir

    So which Islamic countries and societies (out of about 57) are truly secular and tolerant on non-Muslims? Turkey is 99.8 percent Muslim- so you can not test tolerance there.

    And how about daily incidents of massacres of civlians by Muslims? Which other religion does the same thing?

    [Reply]

    Salahuddin Reply:

    Mr. Randhir,

    Remove your Brahmin Venom and talk practically. First correct urself that there is no Islamic country on the globe. U can say them Muslim Dominated countries runs under the umbrella of USA.

    What are you pointing about civilians massacres by muslims. are you pointing about palestine where thousands of muslims got killed and going to get killed in coming days too, or Iraq, or Somalia, sudan, afghanistan, pakistan.

    Oh lemme remind u Gujarat, Orrisa, Kashmir.

    U must correct urself. Next time write it that muslims are getting massacred either by show off muslims or by RSS or by Zionist or by USA or by Ur type of Brahmins.

    First show some respect to Dalit hindus then talk about tolerance.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Mr Salaluddin why you are conveniently hiding the facts that it is Palestinian who regularly bomb and massacre Israeli innocents. But when they retaliate you turn the table against them because you know that no Muslim would dare to speak the truth against Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Asad Reply:

    Randhir…
    Muslim never kills human being in just one word.
    Who made Taliban?
    Who was the architect of Taliban?
    Who sponsored Taliban?
    All the blood path which we see around us are being executed by hidden people (Ofcourse American) and altimately the blam are put on Muslims.
    I am highly educated Muslim and I pray five times Namaz and do mercy on poor and help needy people….Do you consider me hard core Muslim as I pray five times Namaz.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ asad

    Your education level gets reflected from your views…

    You need not bring disgrace to the education system which infact failed beacuse of you .

    [Reply]

    The Dawg Reply:

    Muslims, your kalima, which says ‘there is no god, but allah’ is so disrespectful of other religions. Other religions have their own gods, who are you to say that their god is not a real god. It’s like me saying that there are no parents better than my parents in the world. Everyone has parents and I am sure they love their children as dearly as mine love me.

    Don’t take religion too seriously people. The whole world is slowly moving away from religion towards a more humanistic society, so should you. We live on a wonderful planet, go out and explore it and it will thrill you every step of the way. RELIGION IS NOT EVERYTHING!!!!

    Rahmath Reply:

    “The whole world is slowly moving away from religion towards a more humanistic society,”

    Aapke muh mei Ghee Shakkar….I only wish it were true……

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @asad
    ‘Muslim never kills human being in just one word’

    Yor are absolutely correct Asad: Muslims only kill Pigs, Apes and other vile creatures!!

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    Can you tell me how many massacres have muslims carried out.
    How non-violent are hindu? Can you brave talk about Gujrat 2002 where the hindus executed a fetus pulled out a woman’s stomach. do you have the balls to recount how christain in tribal region are reconverted by force. how freedom do you give to people to pursure thier own religion.
    Where have muslims reconverted a person who has drifted away. Why do hindu keep muslims backward

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Shut up you porki …

    We don’t need a lecture from you..

    The world knows who are trouble makers..

    [Reply]

    Rahmath Reply:

    @ sanjeev

    “Shut up you porki …

    We don’t need a lecture from you..

    The world knows who are trouble makers..”

    And your reply proves who the trouble makers are …thankyou

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    How many massacres..

    yes

    Muhd BiN qasim came to sindh with flower in his hands
    Muhd Ghori too came with flower

    so did Ghazni

    so did Muhd Zayed

    since day one u mroons have been running amock with sword in your hand and u have audacity to ask how many massacres mslim did.. dude we lost count.. Even conservative estimates say nothign less than 80 million hindus were butchered by islamic marauders.. butchery was on sucha scale that they name whole moutain raneg hindukush ( massacre of hindus)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You yourself of product of Islamic massacre. Your ancestors were forced to convert to Islam or your women were raped.
    You are the only people on earth who are proud of rapes committed on your mothers by arabs/turks/mongol.

    Remember these invaders did not bring their wives when conducting raids on India. They raped your mothers…that’s the real history.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    ha ha ha

    good reply

    This language is better comprehendible by muslims :)

  • Chirtarun

    Reconciling Islam to evolving realities is an impossibility, because, according the basic tenet of Islam, Koran is the absolute world of God, and (naturally) no verses in Koran are subject to modification. For example, read Sura 9: 111, which guarantees paradise to Jihadists. By the way , Sura 9:111 was quoted yesterday by a “NYC subway bomb plotter” in a a U.S. court of law. So, this talk about moderating Islam is pure horse-manure!.

    [Reply]

    Naved Yar Khan Reply:

    Islam has been under attack from the vested interests and corrupt since it began to be propogated by Holy Prophet Muhammad(Peace of Allah be upon him).Those who committed female infanticide,corrupted Kaaba by placing idols of various so-called deities were its enemies.It prohibits taking interest,wine,eating pork, so those who indulged in its trade must have opposed it.The same vested interests continue to oppose it through their political parties or leaders.Islam disallows females to show their ‘beuties’ to those males who are not closely related by blood,except husbands.Those indulging in porno,cabaret,prostitution ,pimping,etc. business obviously are its enemies.

    [Reply]

    SR Reply:

    What I have failed to understand is ,as to why Isamics/Muslims migrate to other countries
    and dont want to change.Just stay in your Isalmic countries,dont bother anyone and vice versa.
    Most of the Isamists are intolerant of the west and for that reason also intolerant of the east -like hindus.May be its time to create a greater Islamic union(organized peaceful) where all muslims can migrate and live in peace for ever and ever ,and practice any kind of law they believe in.After all there is the Americas and the Euoropean union,so there will be an Islamic union.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    The tenet of Islam can be applied to any context. it has universal and temporal application and adherence to Islam will end all you vows…..all you have to be is brave to know and digest truth

    [Reply]

    Chirtarun Reply:

    And the truth is that Koran wants Muslims to kill all Kafirs; that is the truth the world is trying to digest, Mr. Ali.

    [Reply]

  • A. Kaafir

    @Randhir: You can test tolerance in Turkey and find that christians are still not allowed to repair their churches without authorization from the Presidents office. No new churches can be built in Turkey. You may want to read up on what the rights of non-muslims truly are in the “secular” turkey. The revivalist Islam that is taking hold of Turkey under Gul and Erdogan is a sight to behold.

    As long as news as the following keep appearing and the muslims keep practising Islamic supremacy from Indonesia, Malaysia, Sudan, Pakistan, Middle east, Europe, Canada, etc. etc. etc., the non-muslims are not likely to change their view of Islam:

    http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Hindu-girl-forced-to-convert-to-Islam/610492/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+expressindia%2FiKgY+%28Expressindia%29

    Islamabad A Hindu girl from Punjab province was kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam and is currently being held in a madrassa, leading Pakistani rights activist Ansar Burney said today.

    Burney said his rights organisation, the Ansar Burney Trust International, had learnt that 15-year-old Gajri, the daughter of Mengha Ram, was abducted by a Muslim neighbour from her home at Katchi Mandi, Liaquatpur, in Rahim Yar Khan district on December 21, 2009.

    Gajri’s parents later found out that she was beingheld captive in a madrassa or seminary in southern Punjab and that she had been married and converted to Islam, Burney said.

    The local administration is “refusing to respond to the abduction” of the girl, who is not being allowed to leave the madrassa or to speak to her parents, he said. ……….

    [Reply]

  • friendofindia

    one God …all humans are equaled……no fairytale…..as a Muslim living in India as slum dog …20 million Chris living in Muslim world under same right ….i wish to go out from this Hindu untouched culture….they love money on the top..they even have no good relation in family ….paisa is Lakshmi Devi for Hindu and devils for Muslim

    [Reply]

    Zain Reply:

    Firstly, Muslim societies should allow the true Islamic history to come out. The truth about the Prophet’s life and the writing of the Koran and Hadees need to be debated and discussed. There is now a growing school of thought which is seeking to establish the historical accuracy about the existence of the Prophet and the veracity of the “isnads” in the Hadith’s. I hope scholars would be allowed to work without the threat of fatalities.

    [Reply]

  • muslim

    To all my ignorant hindu readers and islam bashers. Please tell me what Hinduism has given to the world??? Caste system, Sati, Discrimination against widows, Dahej, drinking cow urine and the list goes on and on. Thank god hindus have stopped practicing actual hinduism otherwise, India would be a one ugly place. Lets look at actual Islam, equality, justice, no dahej, no drinknig cow urine, no discimination against widows.
    What about Uganda (a christian country), gays get killed over there too. What about Phillipines, you can’t even get a divorce its against catholic values, women are stuck with the same verbally abusive husband for the rest of their lives. I can’t think of a recent case in Pakistan where hudood ordinance was actually enforced, polygamy is not a law in pakistan Men are only allowed to have a second wife if the first wife approves it (for situations when the first wife is sick or can’t bear children). I lived in Pakistan for many years and don’t know one Pakistani who had two wives and may be one or two women who actually got a divorce from their husbands. Where as sex outside of of marriage is becoming a norm in India, don’t you think that oppresses women????
    I AM TALKING ABOUT REAL ISLAM (NOT THE VERSION THAT’S BEING PRACTICED NOW IN MOST MUSLIMS COUNTRIES) VS REAL HINDUISM THAT MOST HINDUS ARE SO ASHAMED OF AND ARE BECOMING ATHEISTS IN LARGE NUMBERS.

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    Kishan Reply:

    There you have it. The last paragraph in capitals is the operative paragraph. What is written in books remains only in the books unless it is followed in practice. No amount of apologetic explanations will help.

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    Akash Reply:

    Muslim,
    Actually cow urine has some therapeutic effects. Looks like you need some. Gays have a hard time in Islamic countries, man.

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    Chirtarun Reply:

    Read history: from Ghenghis Khan to Osama, the history of Islam is full of atrocities, murder, deceit, mayhem, lies (e.g. 911 is a Zionist plot), and subjugation of women (genital mutilation, child brides, Baccha Baazi in Afghanistan) and minorities. Please read Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses: you’d find out what Islam is all about. Better still, pack your bags and move to the Taliban territory in Pakistan: you don’t belong in India, you need to be with the “Pure” (Pak Sar Zamin), not with the impure, barbaric Hindus.

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    US muslim Reply:

    Chirtaun learn some Islam. Genital mutilation is an African custom not an Islamic one. “Baccha bazi” in Afghanistan it sounds very simlar to “hindu child sex trafficking and prostitution” to me. I do belong to Pak Sar Zamin, thank God not in India where muslims have to change their name to become a hindu or marry a Hindu to become something big. So what if Pakistan is going down now, history of the country does not remain the same, it keeps on changing. So we have taliban and you have the naxals. They are not much under Indian Govt control, it looks like. Why should I read ( Satanic verses) a book written by an atheist, I can talk to many hindu atheists and hindu converts to Islam in Europe and learn about what true Hinduism is.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Chirtarun ,
    Genghis Khan was not a Muslim.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    There are few facts about Islam that can’t be changed. Therefore all the talks of reform hold no water because Islam is based on pure evil and intolerance.
    1. Islam is the only religion that has political angle.
    2. Mohammad married lot of non-muslim women for the sake of POLITICAL alliance.
    3. Mohammad morality is questionable.
    4. Islam’s holiest places are built on occupied places (pagan, jews) such as Kaaba, Al-Aqsa mosque.
    5. Islam’s holiest book is not the original piece of work. It borrows heavily from Judaism and xtianity. It is peppered with Arabic tribalism and politics.
    6. There is no scope for reform in Islam as most of the ignorant muslims take Quran as word of god. Even a child know, god will never write a book that will loose its relevance in 1400 years.
    7. Islam justifies violence against non-believers and apostates.
    8. Islam is all about occupying real estate followed by power followed by people.
    9. Islam is the only religion that justifies telling lies to meet short term goals.

    Islam is unreformable just like Nazism.

  • mohammad tabrez alam

    first of all talk about islam . islam is best religion in the world .

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Yes it your right to claim . no one denies that. I claim my self to the handsomest 50 year old man. but the problem starts only when we both wants others too accept our claims. So long you keep your claim within your Mosques and I keep my claim within my head there in problems brother.

    [Reply]

    Chirtarun Reply:

    Yes, indeed. Islam is the BEST,:it gave us Chenghiz Khan, Osama and his glorious 911, child brides, genital mutilation of women, and Zizya tax. Why don’t you move to Pakistan where you can mingle with the Pure (after all India is a land of Kafirs).

    [Reply]

    pranit Reply:

    The Quran’s Chapter 2, verse 32, prohibits killing of innocents “…whosoever kills an innocent, it is as if he killed the whole of humanity, and whosoever saves a life, it is as if he saved all mankind.”

    I am not sure if the author knows his religion very well or practising “taqiyya”. In islam the earlier peaceful verses which are contradictory are abrogated by later hateful verses towards kafirs. The later verses clearly says that to kill kafirs wherever you find him (8:2). faithfreedom.org

    [Reply]

  • Syed Hassan

    The whole argument is malafide and does not approach the subject logically.
    Islam as a religion is one of the best in terms of its teaching about human rights and respect for other faiths.
    You can not argue that India being one secular Hindu country does not has its fair share of intolerant Hindu extremist like BJP who are responsible for the Gujarat carnage,

    At any given time in history , we are caught in a given situation. The Western democracy has been responsible for colonizing the most of Africa, Asia and other regions of the world. Both the first and second world war was caused by White Christian that caused the death of almost 50 Million human being. But we all agree it was not the teaching of Christianity but folly of humans with global aspirations. Any one with education and knowledge knows Taliban are the product of American policies toward using the people of Afghanistan to defeat the Russian. The attack of Iraq was decided in the very first cabinet meeting of Bush long before 9/11.
    Media plays an important role in misinformation and people who want war talk of clash of civilization.
    De facto rather De Jure is how they function. By now we all know that it was not 9/11 or WMD that was the reason for Iraq war. Till to date UNO has not defined terrorism.
    Islam is totally against so called Taliban who kill and bring destruction in the name of Islam. Islam strictly forbids it. One of the main reason of spread of Taliban is the foreign policies of USA and West. Also the absence of even basic education in Afghanistan has contributed toward extremism. The imbalance of Western policies toward Middle East and favoring Israel despite its totally immoral and illegal acts has also been reason for dissatisfaction among Muslims.
    The young educated Muslims of today understand Islam much better, they know how to live with the West and 99.9% of Muslims are against so called Taliban who kill innocent people or do acts like 9/11.
    Today more non Muslims are converting to Islam as they study Quran and try understanding Islam.
    In USA the politicians are known to use mass fear to advance their personal goals. Macarthurism has only happened in recent history of USA. If it is not Red then let’s try picking up on Islam.
    In a world of new media where knowledge is no more confidential truth come out far more quickly and we all hope of a better closer brotherhood among all faith and I would hope one shall like to study and understand Islam before one passes a judgment.
    Specially to our Jewish and Christian brothers, please try to remember that the Holocaust was inflicted by White Christians on Jew but it does not mean that it was preached by Christian faith. Similarly Taliban in no way represent Islam or follow Islamic teaching.Let us all unite to defeat Talibans but please dont say thet are doing what they are doing because Islam as a relegion yrges terrorism. Nothing can be farhter from the truth. Islam teaches peace and coexisitance.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Mr Syed Hassan Only your article has got the most constructive approach. As Hindus and Muslims and Christians are asked to change their views about another religion then all the problem starts. It doesn’t matter whether your religion is most Holistic and my religion ( I am a Hindu ) the most Unholistic’ But why one should constantly keep telling other to change his views or mind or whatever. Every individual has got his own brain and he can see the thing for himself and put two plus two as four. You don’t tread on my toes and I don’t tread on my toes. When some over zealous evangelists come to my door step or they talk about the glory of jesus to my un matured children definitely I will react to that religion. Similarly when I have some scuffle with a muslim and itf that turns out to be communal matter then I am going to react. Until some one tread on my toe knowingly i am not going to call that fellow a stupid. this is very simple. Or your religion and my religion should have open debate on our religious books and truths and should not mind any criticism on anything. then only real harmony can happen. Until few decades India and Hindu people were seen by the westerners as Snake Charmers or wife burners etc etc. So no one can change the public perception and we have to digest. But in due course the p[erceptions will change as the people of your community changes gradually as my religious people are also slowly accepting some changes and progressing even though slowly. But until then one can can not break his head or nose.

    [Reply]

    Feroza Reply:

    Where are human rights in Muslim countries? Where are human rights for Muslim women? Where is the freedom of thought in Islam? Infact freedom of thought is severely curtailed.

    [Reply]

    US muslim Reply:

    Did you know that Muslim countries Indonesia (largest), Pakistan (2nd largest), Bengladesh (thirst largest), and Turkey (4th largest) have all elected female leaders before many western nations. Please learn to not lump everyone the same, and what about the rights of females in India????? Child marriages happen in India too, India is known in the world for female child sex trafficking.

    [Reply]

    Chirtarun Reply:

    You say, “Islam as a religion is one of the best in terms of its teaching about human rights and respect for other faiths. ”

    I say: child brides, genital mutilation of women, regular beating and murdering of women by Taliban, and last but not the least, 911, which you claim is a Zionist conspiracy (Muslims should get a Nobel Prize for a lie this grand), an example of the Koranic principle of Taqiya (orchestrated lies to promote Islam).

    [Reply]

    Good Muslim Reply:

    Genital mutilation is not islamic its an african cultural practice like hindus used to do Sati and hindu shaving of widow heads remember, Did you know regular beating of women also happens in India and also inlaws were until recently burning their daughter in laws for dowry???

    [Reply]

  • vikas

    Quran (for that matter, none of the religions of that era), obviously would not have advocated about family planning at the time it was written. What should be the take of todays religious leaders on this issue ?

    I can speak about Hinduism. Earlier in Vedas, it was quoted “the qualities of good human being should be – telling truth, doing good deeds … and not breaking the human chain (/reproduction)”. But when family planning was encouraged in India, the religious leaders never opposed it.

    Hinduism never considers parting of any organ from the body. We never worshipped the idols which had a broken organ. (That is the reason, we find many old statues disfigured. The muslim rulers who invaded, broke them so that they should never be worshipped). But with the need of organ donation, things have changed. I have seen a religious guru in a “eye donation” compaign, who says the importance of ‘Daana(/charity)’ in Hinduism and says he will be donating his eye.

    I do not understand, why for every issue one has to look at what is written in Quran which has been written hundreds of years ago. Quran might or might not have mentioned, as it might not have been a relavent issue then. There can be few practices which were existing then, which may not be relavent now. (At that era, polygomy was common practice in Hinduism as well, but people changed the rules later), Why in Islam, no such ammendment is possible ?

    At least, regarding population control muslim leaders should speak. It is affecting lot of poorer section of the society, as they have many children. They do listen to their religious leaders. But these people never encourage that class to come out of the poverty or ignorance. They never think about ammending Quran, instead will oppose any bill saying “it offends Islam”. The poor muslims are just being exploited by their own leaders.

    [Reply]

    Ramesh Reply:

    Good !

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Vikas

    That nis the issue. A book written (or came from God’s mesenger) 1400 years ago has to be adapted for today’s times. Islam had a process “Ijtehad” to question tenets nad reinterpret, reestablish, just like your educated and enlightened people like Sanakra did with vedas and upanishads. However, after Bagdad was run over by Mongold and Chengis Khan, the clergy decided that ISlam and its books had everything humans had to have and shuit the process of questioninga nd interpreting, “Ijtehad”. So, in a sense, modern ISalmioc thought is frozen at 1200 AD. The clergy (Ulemma, mullahs, maulavis; very often uneducated) has controlled the discussion and thoughts; the early and compulsory religious education (Madrasas) have only made things worse.

    Hopefullyt thinkers like Zia should put it in the forefront and force Muslims to discuss and adapta nd change as needed.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Very good and I appreciate your courage.

    [Reply]

    Chirtarun Reply:

    Amending the Quran: you utter these words in ANY Islamic country (try Pakistan for starters), and you are liable to be executed (under the blasphemy laws)! Vikas, I suggest that you read the Quran to understand what Islam wants its followers to do. A true Muslim will follow and defend the tenets of Islam, regardless of what the clueless Hindus want to believe about Islam. Islam without Quran is like salt without its saltiness. Vikas, it is really that simple!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Vikas,
    Actually Baba Ramdev and other idiots opposed changing the anti gay law and there is considerable evidence that Raja Ram Mohun Roy had to face a lot of opposition from similar rascals when he was advocating for banning of Sati. So, your theory is slightly incorrect.

    [Reply]

    Vikas Reply:

    I agree, there are oppositions. But do you think, gays will not be treated equal in India even after 20 years ? System takes time to adopt. But it changes eventually. There could have been opposition to Raja Ram Mohan Roy, but Sati system is not existent today. That is what matters.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Certain social taboos will take lots of time to change. Even though I feel that Aravanis also human beings and I should treat them equally, still I am unable to have the courage to have one of them as a friend. I am unable to mingle with them and they are unable to mingle with normal folks. At the best we could stop insulting and abusing them but i don’t think even after thousand years those societies would mingle freely. Such thing is not only in India. I have been living in Australia. Even there gay community is a separate entity from normal people. Oil and water can not mix and it is natural. If we force oil and water to mix then we get some unatural useless product.

  • mustafa

    I agree to all three above. None of the islamic country has a really accountable system of governemnt. There are either theocracy, monarchy, dictators, pseudo democracy or outright lawlessness. It is agreed that muslims societies do not show tolerance towards other faiths.
    It is either their so called self righteous and superficail supermacy or an inherent ignorance of contemperory currents.
    Having said that, In india there are also very obvious examples of religious intolerence by hindus towards muslims christians and schedule castes. The problem of violence in religion exasberates when religion is sold as a commodity. It has happened in history throughout. As humanity progresses, religious tolerence will increase, and muslims too will learn and adapt to practice religion as personal and their artificial supermacy will fade.
    It is high time for muslims to adapt to the changing times, bring in real democratic accountable governments in their countries, becasue as long as monarchies and theocracies rule them, they will not let religious intolerence go away, as they thrive on it and finds their legitimacy in this culture of violence and discrimination.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Wel spoken.

    [Reply]

  • veera

    Till Muslims keep islam in their house/mosques and not to go for street fightings, they will always be branded like fanatics and dangerous. Since Hindus are tolerant they are able to shine in India and occupy top slots. To get the stigma removed,it is high time they practice peaceful co-existence and increase tolerance level and respect all religions.The most important is they start giving freedom and liberty to their women like other religions

    [Reply]

    arish sahani Reply:

    Even all you have written is full of lies. Islam respects all religions a big lies. 99% of all muslim are converts in last few generations. Poor converts hate their roots have no respect for others not their own women rights now you know why islam has no good opinions among west. Freedom lovers have noplace for dogmatic religions.

    [Reply]

    Prasoon Choudhary Reply:

    Religion is a deadly cocktail of servery things like belief of god, culture and traditions, way of living, personal law etc. As civilization has progress and science has made more discoveries some of the believes are no longer in tune with modern values. But the problem with Islam is that it is based on teachings in Koran which can not be altered, only things a model Muslim can do is interpret it different then the people in say Afghanistan or not follow a section of teaching in Koran. But he can never say that it is wrong or even say that it is no longer valid. Take the case of Polygamy most Muslim do not follow it but can never criticize it. This closes down the path to reform for ever ! Imagine how people will think of Islam if it remains frozen in time like today 200 years from now. Modern societies are based on values like secularism, freedom of expression, freedom of religion (and from religion), gender equality etc. How does Islam measure up to these values. No Muslim not even moderate want to hear any criticism of their religion how ever genuine it may be and some may resort to death threat. Modern Muslims are loath to criticize these people and many may silently support them. Muslim have failed to blend with the society they live in. Instead they always try to carve a separate identity for them by all sort of things like wearing their religion on sleeves praying in office space, keeping long beards, wearing skull cap etc.
    Imagine how it will look if Hindus start applying big Tika on their forehead and start wearing saffron cloth and always greet other with loud Jai Shree Ram in office place. How will Muslim feel in such an environment.
    The Islamic revivalism movement that author talks about may be about just about praying and fasting, but it is more than that. By asking them to pray 5 time a day and attend mosque on every Friday it is bringing them more close to Absolute Islam of medieval age, once a Muslim is convinced to following 5 times schedule then he starts looking for the next step which is attending Mosque every Friday then the next step is to grow the beard, the next step is to live life strictly according to Koran, attend more religious meeting and listen to hard core clerics, so on and on. This takes them more and more away from their friends in office and neighborhood. They are only left with the friends they have made in Mosque. This makes them feel ever worse and they start looking at the society in a different light.
    Muslim around the globe needs to get relaxed, people are not after them to destroy their religion. But they definitely want them to become like them. Keep the religion at personal and private level as cultural thing like Christians celebrate Christmas and Hindus celebrate Holi and Diwali.
    Reform to accept the model values like secularism and freedom of expression. And accept that many teaching are no longer comparable with model values. Become more rational in your thinking and base it on science & logic and values of model society. Have open mind to listen to argument even if its against teachings of the Koran. Many of them are very happy to enjoy the freedom and values of model western society when they need them but don’t want the same logic to be applied to Islamic world from where many of them come from.
    Please remember all the religion are started by humans and rules were written by human let not become slave of these religion and lose our power to think and argue and analyst it based on new facts.

    [Reply]

    SR Reply:

    Well said.If you look at celebrities like SRK -In every function he will say “Inshaallah “at least
    3 times /senetnce,and will say Salaam as opposed to Namaste,now is there any Indian actor sayin Jai shree Ram 3 times /sentence.Now, no one is against SRK following his own relegion ,keep it at home and dont preach in a secular (hindu majority society).Same can be said of christian celebrities ,in India or the west,they never keep repeating Jesus every time they speak?

    Vikas Reply:

    For that matter every religion try to convert others (christianity, buddhism) except Hinduism. We don’t do it because we don’t know, after convertion which caste we have to put the converted fellow.!

    [Reply]

  • Ajaya K Dutt

    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then it is a duck.

    Irrespective of how “Scholars” (?) define Quran. Irrespective of the fact that majority of Muslims are tolerant of other religions, but the fact remains that Non-Muslims, particularly Hindus are prosecuted in Islamic majority areas, be it Pakistan, Bangla Desh or Kashmir.

    We cannot solve the eternal problem without addressing root cause. The evil is not just in “Indoctrinated”, or just in “Indoctrinators” but in the “doctrine” itself. Root cause is not even just an evil doctrine, but acceptance or rather tolerance of evil doctrine to avoid hurting any “religious sentiments”. I read Quran, and appreciated its beauty as well as understood why so many use this a spiritual guide for raping and killing Hindus, be it in Kashmir, Bangla Desh or Pakistan. It is important for all of us, Hindus and Muslims, to reject the doctrine that in any way or form can promote intolerance.

    [Reply]

  • raman

    You have copy – paste twice your article.

    [Reply]

  • Manzoor Ahmed

    we basically miss the wood in the tree; in all divine or devised religions; an essential feature is respect & love for fellow creations of all kinds to bring order & peace in world that is what the Creater wishes or would wish; this requires each individuals` selfless contribution & then comes collective or group intersts;
    Things are other way around, we strive for group intersts without any individual contribution/s and hence are treated very casually by fellow creations;
    we must re-assess or re-evalauate our personal conducts, our own internal judgement would be sufficient input and the think at macro level; many issues of conflict & hatred will vapourise–am sure

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Manzoor Ahmed says

    >>’we basically miss the wood in the tree’

    Yes Yes, all of us please look at ‘wood in the TREE’

    >>in all divine or devised religions; an essential feature is respect & love for fellow creations of all kinds to bring order & peace in world that is what the Creater wishes or would wish; this requires each individuals` selfless contribution & then comes collective or group intersts’

    Please let us know which ones are DEVISED religions.

    >>Essential feature – respect and love for

    Says who? Hinduism has caste system.

    BTW is the LOVE that you are referring to same as not wanting your fellow creations to burn in hell forever ?

    >> fellow creations of all kinds.
    Are animals also considered as ‘fellow creations”?

    [Reply]

  • JP

    I am glad people are talking about this. Religions have to evolve with time. Change is the key and very important. We are talking about frozen values and traditions since millenia !. Also, if one feels superior, they have to feel inferior to someone or something ! I have to say as an expat Indian in US, I do not tolerate any kind of fanaticism: religious or not and strongly believe that you dont have to be religious to be a good citizen of the world and be at peace with yourself and the rest of the world. I feel most uncomfortable in a Hindu temple or a christian church or a mosque or a gurudwara. I work at a hospital and treat human beings.

    [Reply]

    James Kotttoor Reply:

    I appreciate very mucy all what Zia has to say and I wish very very much that Islam also become more tolerant towards those who criticuse their religion and also encourage self criticism. The only way to bring thiscommunity open minded is throgh a secular education, replaing their Madarassa education. I personally resist my temptation to criticise them as Zia does because I am a Christian(Catholic) and it will be not taken in the proper sense.
    ` But we in the Catholic Church permit any amount of self criticism. For instance I am a regular columnist in the Indian currents weekly from Delhi and see my latest article on SEXPLOITS IN CATHOLIC CHURCH, which is very critical. Honestly I would like to get the e-mail of Haq to communicate with him. I am a regular reader of HT. See my article below.– james kottoot

    Thank you for sharing with your friends!
    “Voice of the Voiceless”
    Indian Currents
    18th April 2010
    http://www.indiancurrents.org

    Dump Paedophiles Overboard?
    Sexploits Rock Catholic Church

    Church has to take an uncompromising stand on paedophile priests and see to it that they get proper punishment.

    Dr. James Kottoor

    “You have to be condemned first, before you are canonized!” is an accepted adage in the Catholic Church. Is that precisely happening to it, caught in the world’s coliseum of moral scrutiny, with an endless list of Paedophilia and sexual abuse of innocents hurled against it from all quarters of the globe?
    Small relief is, she is not alone but in company. Other churches, reputed world religions and revered “god-men” caught with similar shameful aberrations are providing her un-envious company. To get a feel of the victim in the coliseum listen to a few howling headlines in the press: “A Trial of the Catholic Church: A Tale of Moral and financial Bankruptcy”, “Benedict XVI and Corruption in Catholic Ireland”, “Pope tenders apology to victims of Catholic sex abuse in Ireland”, “Hans Kung blames Catholic view on sex for clerical child abuse”, “Future Pope stalled Paedophile case”, “Pope willing to meet sex abuse victims again: Vatican”, “Ratzinger did more than any to hold abusers accountable”, “Atheist campaigner vows to have Pope Jailed over abuse,” “Accused of sexual abuse, TN priest to return to US”, “Why god-men thrive despite being involved in scandals”, “We live in a truly sick society”.
    Who in fact is the main target of this attack: The Pope? The Vatican? The Church? Catholic clergy? Naked god-men everywhere? Corrupt and competing religions aping the worldly ways? Myriad questions prop up begging for convincing answers. All have their role in providing right answers .

    Twilight of god-men?
    At the end of the 19th century Friedrich Nietzsche, the German philosopher announced the advent of “the twilight of God”. The chorus that followed was: “God is dead” especially in Abrahamic religions even when a multitude of 33,000 gods were flourishing in India. Now the rot or the new thinking seems to have caught up with us too. A more sanguine view might be to see it all as the natural unfolding of the inexorable law of change which alone is unchangeable. So everything keeps on evolving, changing to reach maturity, only to disintegrate again to renew itself and assume new radical forms of perfection.

    In that perspective are we witnessing the rise and fall of a Constantinean Church modelled on the capitalist hierarchical system far removed from the thoughts and words and deeds of the pedestrian Jesus of Nazareth? Also from the life-style of the first Apostolic community (Communism in modern parlance) where no one was in want? For they had everything in common and strictly adhered to the principle: “To each according to his needs and from each according to his capacities”, unlike the praxis of present day commies who say: “all that is yours is mine”, instead of, “all that is mine is yours.”

    God-men of Yore!
    In that early community the so-called god-men known today as the clergy or priestly class lived an austere life keeping themselves away from the lure of money, power and pleasure. Instead they confined themselves to just two things only: 1. A life of prayer for divine light; 2. Preaching the good news, Act.6.4, or giving spiritual guidance, churned out in prayer (contemplata tradere) on matters moral, spiritual, social and material for the good of the entire community. To do this they entrusted material administration and community organisation to seven upright men they prayerfully chose for the purpose.
    Whether to live a married or celibate life in that community was left to the charisma and choice of individuals both among leaders and followers. Peter was a family man, Paul a celibate. The latter, even when he wished others to be like him, left it free to individuals to have a wife or husband “since sex is always a danger …if they cannot control the sexual urges, they should get married” (l Cor.7), and even prescribed that elders or Bishops “must not have been married more than once” (Ti.1.6), with an orderly and exemplary household.
    All the aberrations and scandals we see in the church and among churches unable to live under one roof are the result of straying far away, like the prodigal, from the roots, the original ideal of a humane human community of love and service, of unity, equality and brotherhood without borders envisioned by Jesus for his followers. That vision of human family has now grown to today’s “global village”. The basic unit of this global family still is the nuclear family defined as: “unity of love in the service of life”. Both in the global and nuclear family, the substance that holds the members together is that simple adhesive called “food-washing” for which no philosophy, theology, scientific degrees or extraordinary traits are needed.. Only thing needed is love to serve, not to dominate.

    Paedophiles in Peter’s Bark
    To come back to the hue and cry over the rot of paedophilia and the dead weight of stinking dirt accumulated on the bark of Peter what is needed is to dump it into the sea to save the bark from sinking. Listen to Jesus: It is better those who scandalise “these little ones” of mine be “drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck” (Mat.18.6). It is here that the media are rendering a salvific service to the Church exposing the rot to public view. Because even those who refuse to do anything to save their souls will do everything possible at least to save their faces!
    Paedophilia in the church is not just pin pricks here and there but a widespread cancer that has a long torturous history if we are to go by published reports. Thousands of cases of atrocities against youth came up in countries like Australia, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Croatia, The Czech republic, France, Haiti, Mexico, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, the UK and the US according to reports. In Philippines, a predominantly Catholic nation, in one instance, twenty priests from a single parish were found guilty according to a report. India can’t be a safe haven just because only stray incidents are reported. It is common knowledge that only a minuscule of what happens actually gets reported.

    Origins of Public Outcry
    It all started in Boston, where Cardinal Bernard Law was appointed in 1984. In the 1970s known offenders were discretely handled and the media generally cooperated with the church to avoid scandal. But the issue began to hog the lime light in 2002 when shocking revelations were splashed across the nation by the Boston Globe about alleged hiding, aiding and abetting of sexual abuse in the diocese.
    Criminal action against clergy began to be taken only after1980 when pervasive sexual abuse committed by Fr. Gilbert Gauthe in Lafayette, Louisiana, and nationwide scandal it caused. Over twenty years, he reportedly molested up to 100 boys in four parishes. In 1984 Gauthe was sentenced to 20 years’ imprisonment. In another instance, after several minor punishments Fr.John Geoghan was sentenced to 10 years in prison for sexually abusing a 10-year-old boy. By April 2002 at least 177 priests were removed from their duties and $400 million were shelled out to settle hundreds of law suits. Following Boston over a thousand cases reportedly came up in Los Angeles alone that cost the Church $660 million in settlements.
    Pope John Paul II declared in 2003 that “there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young”. He also prohibited the ordination of men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies”. It was with the present Pope’s recent apology, pestering problems both in Munich, where the Pope was Archbishop, and in other European countries suddenly got splashed. Thus the cases of Fr. Peter Hullerman in Munich and Fr. Bill Carney accused of abusing 32 named victims in Ireland, began to lead the discussion.
    Fr. Carney, had been defrocked in 1992. On refusing to comply with the verdict, the Church paid him 30,000 pounds to go away quietly. In the meantime Bishop Brennan of Ireland asked Catholics to help pay 10 mil Euro ($13.5 mil) to settle some of Ireland’s more than 15,000 abuse victims. In Fr Hullerman’s case he was briefly transferred to different places for therapy, allowed to return to interact with children, convicted in 1986 for sexual abuse, yet was allowed to work with altar boys. He was finally suspended a few months ago according to reports.

    Pope’s Fair Record!
    If the present Pope is presented in a poor or bad light in the world press, observers cite various reasons: 1. Skeletons of the past in Munich where the Pope was Archbishop in l980s are brought to light now. 2. He happened to head CDF (Congregation for Doctrine of Faith) handling an explosion of cases during the long tenure of John Paul II. 3. Unlike his predecessor he happens to be not politically savvy or pliable to those outside the church. 4. He is seen as rather conservative, focused on the church and a matter of fact humourless German, all of which create a sort of visceral antipathy in many towards him.
    What is overlooked is, Benedict XVI happens to be the first Pope to meet paedophile victims personally. He still wants to meet them again. He took the initiative to open several closed cases to study to eliminate root causes. He also prescribed stringent measures in the selection and training of future priests. Finally he sent the 20th March pastoral to Irish bishops and is bracing himself to face the crisis as a “test of faith”.
    In the wake of it, Bishops in Europe also are swinging into action. According to reports the Munich diocese admitted, it had made “bad mistakes” and German bishops have opened hotlines to victims of abuse. The Swiss bishops have asked victims to file criminal complaints. The Dutch bishops have launched an inquiry into decades-old unsolved claims. The Austrian Cardinal Schoenborn admitted Church’s guilt and presided over a service for paedophile victims.
    All these augers well for a crest fallen church to retrace her steps from the present sorry plight of a prostitute caught in the “Coliseum” to emerge into the honoured image of a tender, loving mother. Recall “Mother and Prostitute” (Mater et meretrix), the two words she chose deliberately in the Vatican documents — one to define her condemned state, the other her hopes for canonization. Of course that is not going to stop critics crying for radical reform. Confessions and asking pardon, are not going to silence them.

    What Radical Reforms?
    Top on the list is the urgent plea to abolish the law of mandatory celibacy for priests as some see it intimately linked, although defenders of orthodoxy oppose it. Reasons adduced are: First, it is not a sine qua non for Priesthood in the church, granting that Jesus, who fought tooth and nail against the priestly class of his times instituted it and not the church! Didn’t he also exhort not to tread the path of the priest or Levite but of the Samaritan in the parable? Wasn’t it the priestly class who sent him to the cross? This in no way diminishes the beauty, glory and priceless value of celibacy freely chosen for the sake of an undivided and single minded dedication for a noble cause.

    In fact, celibacy will take on an added sheen when it is chosen in spite of the absence of a compelling law, they say. Nor will there be any dearth of such celibates to all walks of life, including priesthood, that call for total dedication. To cite just one example, think of the 78-year old Kanu Sanyal, one of the founding fathers of the Communist party of India (Marxist Leninist), who committed suicide recently. He was a chronic bachelor for a cause.
    Secondly, the forbidden fruit is always the most appealing, attractive and tempting as the Paradise story teaches. In Kerala, the liquor barons rejoice most whenever the bishops come out with a pastoral exhorting the faithful to become teetotallers because that alone, they say, would boost their sales a hundred-fold.
    Thirdly, there is the allegation, that it is the capitalist mindset to reap maximum profit with minimum investment called cheap labour that prompts the church to man/woman most of her institutions with celibates.
    Fourthly, the church should practice what she preaches: “Voice of the people, voice of God”(Vox Populi, Vox Dei) by conducting an opinion poll on the subject to bring consensus among priests, religious and laity and to vindicate the official view. Thousands of priests had protested when the law was first introduced as late as the 11th century.
    Fifthly, it is already made free in western Ukraine where “many Catholic priests are married, fruitful and multiplying with the Vatican’s blessing. Ukrainian Greek Catholics represent a branch of Catholicism that is distinct from the far more prevalent Roman Catholic one,” writes Clifford J. Levy in New York Times dated March 22. Only they have to get married before ordination, not after.
    Sixthly, it is for very good reasons that the Indian Seers and Sages recommend the four Ashrams (stages) in human life: Brahamachariya, Grahasta, Vanaprasta and Sanyasa (celibate, family, retired and ascetic life) as they fit smoothly into the natural order of things. Celibacy has to be cultivated for right reasons in the right soil and season if it is not to misfit like a square peg in a round hole.
    Other reasons for misfits among priests could be flaws in the admission process, lack of “human, moral, intellectual, and spiritual formation in seminaries and novitiates”, as pointed out by the Pope himself, over concern to fill up numbers and vacancies in the face of a steep fall in applicants and obstinate objection to women priests from a male dominated church. There are many more.

    Central Issue
    Finally, the central question for the Church today is to define her clear stand on clerical/religious paedophiles. Jesus would send him/her to the depths of the sea. Would the church take such a drastic stand and apply equally to clergy, laity and outsiders? Or will she resort to dilly-dallying, aiding, hiding, tolerating, protecting, feigning ignorance, passing the buck and giving a long rope when it comes to her clergy and religious for lame excuses like human frailties and divert attention citing longer lists of worse lapses in other religions, not only to justify but to show how she is still far better? Won’t that be indulging in crass calumny, slander and pharisaic pride? And counter-productive? Ideally or logically shouldn’t she show readiness to be more stringent with her dedicated class than with lesser mortals in the church and outside, since the former alone claim a moral high and spiritual superiority over the rest?

    Like everything else, may be the church too is unduly affected by the sights and sounds and ways of the world where everyone is becoming a law unto oneself with premarital sex, live-in relations, gay-marriages, homosexual unions, promiscuous pastimes, all of which were unthinkable taboos before the advent of globalisation: Now they are easily getting NOC even from our legal fraternity, which is not same as saying they are moral or virtuous.
    A latest howler “Sexcapades..” in Times of India (7/4/10) is that a 47-year old Chinese official was exposed by his official wife and jailed for trying to raise $14600, five times his annual pay, through bribes to indulge in his pass time of sleeping with different women. His target was 800 but completed only 500. And listen to Chinese president Hu Jintao’s reaction: “Stay alert and away from the lure of power, money and beautiful women, live clean lives and be honest citizens”, according to official Chinese website. Was the Pope saying anything different to his priests? Then how is the church different from publicans and pagans (Mt.5.46)? The weight and ways of the Constantinean Empire still weighs heavily on the Church. To find peace of mind and soul she must retrace her steps to her very roots – to the depths of the austerity and obscurity of the Church of the Catacombs.
    (jkottoor@asianetindia.com)

    Thank you for sharing with your friends!
    “Voice of the Voiceless”
    Indian Currents
    18th April 2010
    http://www.indiancurrents.org

    Dump Paedophiles Overboard?
    Sexploits Rock Catholic Church

    Church has to take an uncompromising stand on paedophile priests and see to it that they get proper punishment.

    Dr. James Kottoor

    “You have to be condemned first, before you are canonized!” is an accepted adage in the Catholic Church. Is that precisely happening to it, caught in the world’s coliseum of moral scrutiny, with an endless list of Paedophilia and sexual abuse of innocents hurled against it from all quarters of the globe?
    Small relief is, she is not alone but in company. Other churches, reputed world religions and revered “god-men” caught with similar shameful aberrations are providing her un-envious company. To get a feel of the victim in the coliseum listen to a few howling headlines in the press: “A Trial of the Catholic Church: A Tale of Moral and financial Bankruptcy”, “Benedict XVI and Corruption in Catholic Ireland”, “Pope tenders apology to victims of Catholic sex abuse in Ireland”, “Hans Kung blames Catholic view on sex for clerical child abuse”, “Future Pope stalled Paedophile case”, “Pope willing to meet sex abuse victims again: Vatican”, “Ratzinger did more than any to hold abusers accountable”, “Atheist campaigner vows to have Pope Jailed over abuse,” “Accused of sexual abuse, TN priest to return to US”, “Why god-men thrive despite being involved in scandals”, “We live in a truly sick society”.
    Who in fact is the main target of this attack: The Pope? The Vatican? The Church? Catholic clergy? Naked god-men everywhere? Corrupt and competing religions aping the worldly ways? Myriad questions prop up begging for convincing answers. All have their role in providing right answers .

    Twilight of god-men?
    At the end of the 19th century Friedrich Nietzsche, the German philosopher announced the advent of “the twilight of God”. The chorus that followed was: “God is dead” especially in Abrahamic religions even when a multitude of 33,000 gods were flourishing in India. Now the rot or the new thinking seems to have caught up with us too. A more sanguine view might be to see it all as the natural unfolding of the inexorable law of change which alone is unchangeable. So everything keeps on evolving, changing to reach maturity, only to disintegrate again to renew itself and assume new radical forms of perfection.

    In that perspective are we witnessing the rise and fall of a Constantinean Church modelled on the capitalist hierarchical system far removed from the thoughts and words and deeds of the pedestrian Jesus of Nazareth? Also from the life-style of the first Apostolic community (Communism in modern parlance) where no one was in want? For they had everything in common and strictly adhered to the principle: “To each according to his needs and from each according to his capacities”, unlike the praxis of present day commies who say: “all that is yours is mine”, instead of, “all that is mine is yours.”

    God-men of Yore!
    In that early community the so-called god-men known today as the clergy or priestly class lived an austere life keeping themselves away from the lure of money, power and pleasure. Instead they confined themselves to just two things only: 1. A life of prayer for divine light; 2. Preaching the good news, Act.6.4, or giving spiritual guidance, churned out in prayer (contemplata tradere) on matters moral, spiritual, social and material for the good of the entire community. To do this they entrusted material administration and community organisation to seven upright men they prayerfully chose for the purpose.
    Whether to live a married or celibate life in that community was left to the charisma and choice of individuals both among leaders and followers. Peter was a family man, Paul a celibate. The latter, even when he wished others to be like him, left it free to individuals to have a wife or husband “since sex is always a danger …if they cannot control the sexual urges, they should get married” (l Cor.7), and even prescribed that elders or Bishops “must not have been married more than once” (Ti.1.6), with an orderly and exemplary household.
    All the aberrations and scandals we see in the church and among churches unable to live under one roof are the result of straying far away, like the prodigal, from the roots, the original ideal of a humane human community of love and service, of unity, equality and brotherhood without borders envisioned by Jesus for his followers. That vision of human family has now grown to today’s “global village”. The basic unit of this global family still is the nuclear family defined as: “unity of love in the service of life”. Both in the global and nuclear family, the substance that holds the members together is that simple adhesive called “food-washing” for which no philosophy, theology, scientific degrees or extraordinary traits are needed.. Only thing needed is love to serve, not to dominate.

    Paedophiles in Peter’s Bark
    To come back to the hue and cry over the rot of paedophilia and the dead weight of stinking dirt accumulated on the bark of Peter what is needed is to dump it into the sea to save the bark from sinking. Listen to Jesus: It is better those who scandalise “these little ones” of mine be “drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck” (Mat.18.6). It is here that the media are rendering a salvific service to the Church exposing the rot to public view. Because even those who refuse to do anything to save their souls will do everything possible at least to save their faces!
    Paedophilia in the church is not just pin pricks here and there but a widespread cancer that has a long torturous history if we are to go by published reports. Thousands of cases of atrocities against youth came up in countries like Australia, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Croatia, The Czech republic, France, Haiti, Mexico, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, the UK and the US according to reports. In Philippines, a predominantly Catholic nation, in one instance, twenty priests from a single parish were found guilty according to a report. India can’t be a safe haven just because only stray incidents are reported. It is common knowledge that only a minuscule of what happens actually gets reported.

    Origins of Public Outcry
    It all started in Boston, where Cardinal Bernard Law was appointed in 1984. In the 1970s known offenders were discretely handled and the media generally cooperated with the church to avoid scandal. But the issue began to hog the lime light in 2002 when shocking revelations were splashed across the nation by the Boston Globe about alleged hiding, aiding and abetting of sexual abuse in the diocese.
    Criminal action against clergy began to be taken only after1980 when pervasive sexual abuse committed by Fr. Gilbert Gauthe in Lafayette, Louisiana, and nationwide scandal it caused. Over twenty years, he reportedly molested up to 100 boys in four parishes. In 1984 Gauthe was sentenced to 20 years’ imprisonment. In another instance, after several minor punishments Fr.John Geoghan was sentenced to 10 years in prison for sexually abusing a 10-year-old boy. By April 2002 at least 177 priests were removed from their duties and $400 million were shelled out to settle hundreds of law suits. Following Boston over a thousand cases reportedly came up in Los Angeles alone that cost the Church $660 million in settlements.
    Pope John Paul II declared in 2003 that “there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young”. He also prohibited the ordination of men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies”. It was with the present Pope’s recent apology, pestering problems both in Munich, where the Pope was Archbishop, and in other European countries suddenly got splashed. Thus the cases of Fr. Peter Hullerman in Munich and Fr. Bill Carney accused of abusing 32 named victims in Ireland, began to lead the discussion.
    Fr. Carney, had been defrocked in 1992. On refusing to comply with the verdict, the Church paid him 30,000 pounds to go away quietly. In the meantime Bishop Brennan of Ireland asked Catholics to help pay 10 mil Euro ($13.5 mil) to settle some of Ireland’s more than 15,000 abuse victims. In Fr Hullerman’s case he was briefly transferred to different places for therapy, allowed to return to interact with children, convicted in 1986 for sexual abuse, yet was allowed to work with altar boys. He was finally suspended a few months ago according to reports.

    Pope’s Fair Record!
    If the present Pope is presented in a poor or bad light in the world press, observers cite various reasons: 1. Skeletons of the past in Munich where the Pope was Archbishop in l980s are brought to light now. 2. He happened to head CDF (Congregation for Doctrine of Faith) handling an explosion of cases during the long tenure of John Paul II. 3. Unlike his predecessor he happens to be not politically savvy or pliable to those outside the church. 4. He is seen as rather conservative, focused on the church and a matter of fact humourless German, all of which create a sort of visceral antipathy in many towards him.
    What is overlooked is, Benedict XVI happens to be the first Pope to meet paedophile victims personally. He still wants to meet them again. He took the initiative to open several closed cases to study to eliminate root causes. He also prescribed stringent measures in the selection and training of future priests. Finally he sent the 20th March pastoral to Irish bishops and is bracing himself to face the crisis as a “test of faith”.
    In the wake of it, Bishops in Europe also are swinging into action. According to reports the Munich diocese admitted, it had made “bad mistakes” and German bishops have opened hotlines to victims of abuse. The Swiss bishops have asked victims to file criminal complaints. The Dutch bishops have launched an inquiry into decades-old unsolved claims. The Austrian Cardinal Schoenborn admitted Church’s guilt and presided over a service for paedophile victims.
    All these augers well for a crest fallen church to retrace her steps from the present sorry plight of a prostitute caught in the “Coliseum” to emerge into the honoured image of a tender, loving mother. Recall “Mother and Prostitute” (Mater et meretrix), the two words she chose deliberately in the Vatican documents — one to define her condemned state, the other her hopes for canonization. Of course that is not going to stop critics crying for radical reform. Confessions and asking pardon, are not going to silence them.

    What Radical Reforms?
    Top on the list is the urgent plea to abolish the law of mandatory celibacy for priests as some see it intimately linked, although defenders of orthodoxy oppose it. Reasons adduced are: First, it is not a sine qua non for Priesthood in the church, granting that Jesus, who fought tooth and nail against the priestly class of his times instituted it and not the church! Didn’t he also exhort not to tread the path of the priest or Levite but of the Samaritan in the parable? Wasn’t it the priestly class who sent him to the cross? This in no way diminishes the beauty, glory and priceless value of celibacy freely chosen for the sake of an undivided and single minded dedication for a noble cause.

    In fact, celibacy will take on an added sheen when it is chosen in spite of the absence of a compelling law, they say. Nor will there be any dearth of such celibates to all walks of life, including priesthood, that call for total dedication. To cite just one example, think of the 78-year old Kanu Sanyal, one of the founding fathers of the Communist party of India (Marxist Leninist), who committed suicide recently. He was a chronic bachelor for a cause.
    Secondly, the forbidden fruit is always the most appealing, attractive and tempting as the Paradise story teaches. In Kerala, the liquor barons rejoice most whenever the bishops come out with a pastoral exhorting the faithful to become teetotallers because that alone, they say, would boost their sales a hundred-fold.
    Thirdly, there is the allegation, that it is the capitalist mindset to reap maximum profit with minimum investment called cheap labour that prompts the church to man/woman most of her institutions with celibates.
    Fourthly, the church should practice what she preaches: “Voice of the people, voice of God”(Vox Populi, Vox Dei) by conducting an opinion poll on the subject to bring consensus among priests, religious and laity and to vindicate the official view. Thousands of priests had protested when the law was first introduced as late as the 11th century.
    Fifthly, it is already made free in western Ukraine where “many Catholic priests are married, fruitful and multiplying with the Vatican’s blessing. Ukrainian Greek Catholics represent a branch of Catholicism that is distinct from the far more prevalent Roman Catholic one,” writes Clifford J. Levy in New York Times dated March 22. Only they have to get married before ordination, not after.
    Sixthly, it is for very good reasons that the Indian Seers and Sages recommend the four Ashrams (stages) in human life: Brahamachariya, Grahasta, Vanaprasta and Sanyasa (celibate, family, retired and ascetic life) as they fit smoothly into the natural order of things. Celibacy has to be cultivated for right reasons in the right soil and season if it is not to misfit like a square peg in a round hole.
    Other reasons for misfits among priests could be flaws in the admission process, lack of “human, moral, intellectual, and spiritual formation in seminaries and novitiates”, as pointed out by the Pope himself, over concern to fill up numbers and vacancies in the face of a steep fall in applicants and obstinate objection to women priests from a male dominated church. There are many more.

    Central Issue
    Finally, the central question for the Church today is to define her clear stand on clerical/religious paedophiles. Jesus would send him/her to the depths of the sea. Would the church take such a drastic stand and apply equally to clergy, laity and outsiders? Or will she resort to dilly-dallying, aiding, hiding, tolerating, protecting, feigning ignorance, passing the buck and giving a long rope when it comes to her clergy and religious for lame excuses like human frailties and divert attention citing longer lists of worse lapses in other religions, not only to justify but to show how she is still far better? Won’t that be indulging in crass calumny, slander and pharisaic pride? And counter-productive? Ideally or logically shouldn’t she show readiness to be more stringent with her dedicated class than with lesser mortals in the church and outside, since the former alone claim a moral high and spiritual superiority over the rest?

    Like everything else, may be the church too is unduly affected by the sights and sounds and ways of the world where everyone is becoming a law unto oneself with premarital sex, live-in relations, gay-marriages, homosexual unions, promiscuous pastimes, all of which were unthinkable taboos before the advent of globalisation: Now they are easily getting NOC even from our legal fraternity, which is not same as saying they are moral or virtuous.
    A latest howler “Sexcapades..” in Times of India (7/4/10) is that a 47-year old Chinese official was exposed by his official wife and jailed for trying to raise $14600, five times his annual pay, through bribes to indulge in his pass time of sleeping with different women. His target was 800 but completed only 500. And listen to Chinese president Hu Jintao’s reaction: “Stay alert and away from the lure of power, money and beautiful women, live clean lives and be honest citizens”, according to official Chinese website. Was the Pope saying anything different to his priests? Then how is the church different from publicans and pagans (Mt.5.46)? The weight and ways of the Constantinean Empire still weighs heavily on the Church. To find peace of mind and soul she must retrace her steps to her very roots – to the depths of the austerity and obscurity of the Church of the Catacombs.
    (jkottoor@asianetindia.com)

    With warm Regards,
    James kottoor, Thammanam,
    Kochi- 682032, Ph: 0484-2344679

    [Reply]

  • Omar Khayyam

    The religion of Islam was started by Mohammad who declared himself prophet. Muslims always call people of other religions Kafirs meaning unbelievers. There is so much hatred for Jews that they are called decendents of Apes and Pigs. At the end of the world, when the Jews are hiding behind stones and trees, even the stones and trees will shout ‘Oh Muslim, come come, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him’. With this type of teaching being preached all over the world how can there be tolerance. Part of Mohammed’s teachings are copied from Jewish and Christian texts. The rest of them he added as he liked with no one stopping him. For example his marriage to his adopted son’s wife Zainab. He pulls out a revelation from Allah and then turns into a verse and marries her. Same thing with Ayesha, the 9 year old bride whom he married. Mohammed had his opponents killed in cold blood like Ashraf, Asma Bint Marwan and many Jewish merchants. He fought in more than 66 battles, raid caravens, rob, kill and capture slaves, slaughtered enemies, married many women especially captured slaves and yet muslims the world over hail him as the holiest of holies, the role model. The Quran it self is in question because there were so many versions and Caliph Uthman destroyed all and kept only one. How did he know which is the true one? Allah was created by Mohammed because his name never existed in the Jewish and Christian texts. Mohammed used the words Allah Oh Akbar which he made the war cry to kill his enemies. How can one use the words of God to kill people. If the angels would visit Mohammed and Allah would give him new revelations everyday, why was he not able to discover the Jewish woman who poisoned him. Mohammed even lied that Jesus Christ was not killed but is alive. It is historical and historians have testified that Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross, put to death, buried and raised to life. Muslims have to sit and discover the truth of who God is and what it is that is required from them rather than committing acts of violence against those who oppose their founders teachings.

    [Reply]

  • M

    Unfortunately, every attempt to reform Islam has failed. Every attempt at reform over the past 1200 years has been met (many times violently) by revivalism. Ijtehad lasted only a hundred years, and then it was violently suppressed,and its proponents killed. This is because the Koran and the Prophet Mohammed himself, warned very strongly against any “innovation” and made a literal, fundamentalistic following of the Koran and the Sunnah to be the only way to be a Muslim. Those who think that Islam an be reformed are only fooling themselves. Slavery, mistreatment of women, jizya, killing of innocents, hatred of Jews and traditional religions will always be part of Islam because that was what was practised by Mohammed, and sanctioned by Allah in the Koran, and is therefore an unalterable part of Islamic Law (Sharia) which governs all aspects of Muslim life. Unlike every other religion which reformed itself, Islam is unable to reform itself, because a reformed Islam cannot be Islam. Islam is to be taken as a whole, and not one word of it can be changed. If any part of Islam is changed, then the whole religion will come crashing down. Good luck !!

    [Reply]

    ravinder Reply:

    I am a trainee doctor in Mumbai, doing my postgraduation. I’ve been iving with a Muslim roommate for last 3 years and some of his friends (99% of whom are Muslims) are known to me. I have no personal problems with any of them and though I am a Hindu by birth, in practice I am an agnostic and believe in the religion of Science. I truly despise VHP, RSS and other such right-wingers. But from my experience I can tell you this- no matter how educated and prosperous Muslims are, they always remain fundamentalists at core! Even in the horror days of November, 2008 when terrorists were murdering people- they never condemned them even once, even in private. Rather one of my seniors from this community was offering excuses and explanations of the conduct of the ‘joshilay’ (in his own words) terrorists! Very hurt and disturbed, I inadvertently suggested to one of them (doing MD in Physiology) that Islam needs reform and freedom from hardliner mullahs. His face was full of fury- of course, he would have used violence against me if he could- and he retorted- “Islam is the final, perfect religion. Quran can not be changed.” So, what inference do I derive from this episode? If people learning Medicine- which is still considered amongst the noblest of professions- are like this, what hopes do we have from the illiterate majority? And do the Islamic apologists really have an answer why I should not be wary and suspicious of Muslims?

    [Reply]

  • Bala Varadarajan

    Rather than worrying about scriptures written hundreds of years ago let us look at the current situation with present day tools. Due to immigration and movement of peoples throughout the world, it is becoming very clear that all of us have to live in a world with multiple faiths. Faith should strictly belong in the private sphere. As for the public sphere, the only thing all the faiths can (and perhaps should) agree is our common humanity. We have no other option but to embrace ‘humanism’ – our humanity enables every human being (male or female) to be entitled to basic human rights and to respect the other person’s humanity and the laws of the land. Faith based systems can not provide the framework for a multifaith society for each faith claims that it and it is alone is the sole arbiter of truth. Let us put our faith in humanity rather than the scriptures.

    [Reply]

    Chirtarun Reply:

    Bala and other clueless Hindus would like to ignore the scripture and their collective faith in humanity (so much for Gandhigiri), but this does not solve the problem: a Muslim will NOT ignore the teachings of Quran, and will NOT submit to the values of a non-Islamic society: a case in point is the burqa controversy simmering in France these days. In India we have foolishly accepted the (Islamic) Sharia law (thank you Columbia University-educated Dr. Ambedkar) by giving Muslims the privilege to have four wives and the right to divorce wives just by repeating the words Talaq thrice. Bala, your placing faith in humanity has no bearing on what Muslims want to do: they will continue to do what Quran tells them to do, e.g. …smite the infidels (kaffirs) in the neck (read behead) and destroy their idols (bhuts).

    [Reply]

    Salahuddin Reply:

    Haha chirtarun,

    What about Shahrukh khan, Amir khan, Salman khan, Saif Ali khan, Ayub khan, Imran khan are they hard core muslims.

    What about
    india Abdul kalam( former president)
    iraq Saddam Hussein,
    Egypt Husni Mubarak,
    libya Gaddafi,
    oman Omar abdullah,
    Afghanistan karzai,
    pakistan gillani

    are they also so called muslims which you trying to show.

    Come on dude wake up from brahmin venom.

    [Reply]

  • Arun

    Every religion is built on faith. If you have faith then rest of things are immaterial. No human being asked the God to give him birth in a particular religion. Yet people blame or critise another religion. Take example of Zakir Naik. He praises islam that is very good. Let him do that but now the question is why he critises or trying to find fault in other religion. He says he talks about comparitive religion of Islam. Now who has given authority to speak about other religion,God?? or who? Any one can speak anything about their religion but never have the right to speak about other religion. What is right and what is wrong its the faith of the person tells. Let him take his consious and apply sense to determine that. No one in this modern world has seen that those historical things really taken place infornt of us. So its our belief and faith that leads us to follow one religion. Other than that everything is name sake gimmick.If some one just pray to god almighty and doesnt follow any religion and leads very good life then can you consider him evil perosn or bad person? Absolutely not? Have one ethic in our life live very good life and do good for others without considering any one’s religion.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Zakir Naik is a known jackass.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.drishtikone.com Desh

    The verse that you are using against modern day terrorism is the one below. And, for some reason, best known to you.. you are citing HALF the verse. It is not as unconditional as you make it out to be.

    Let’s understand the context of the verse to begin with and then understand if it is really as altruistic as you want people to believe.

    The story was of two brothers, son of Adam, where one brother murders the other and the one who dies, accepts death. The son of Adam, who is the murderer of his own brother is then sent, by Allah, a raven (crow) who digs the ground to show how the murderer could hide his brother’s corpse and cover him up. This brother then becomes repentent of what he had done.

    Then comes this verse, where it is said in context of the Children of Israel or the Adam. However, this verse does NOT come without conditions. Even though, killing any one from their own tribe/family will be like killing the entire tribe, it can still be done if it is believed:

    (i) the other person murdered someone
    (ii) spreading mischief in the land

    So, its at best a verse motivating vengeance (not non-violence or love – #1) and worse, it gives arbitrary powers to Muslims to kill because of “mischief” as they define it. Most often mischief means spreading one’s religion or questioning Islam or its Prophet/scriptures (Danish cartoons/Salman Rushdie etc)

    I am not sure if you will even publish my comment.. which will say how honest you are in this dialog. (you have chosen not to publish some of my earlier comments).

    ==================================

    005.032
    YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
    PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
    SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

    [Reply]

  • Neduncheziyan

    The only one book in the world is sill the same since 1400 years. It is the basic of Islam. Except this holy book, all the holy books of all the religion changed by some one unknown person. so that Quran keeps up as original. This book is only Holy.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Quran = Cut/copy/paste jews and xtian scrriptures + Arab tribalism

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Welcome back, Rajeev. Where is Sanjeev?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ akash

    I think your digestion has stopped in my absence ?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    You are trying to be smart. You have very shallow and simplislic understanding of the issues.
    You just want accolades for so called liberal views that border on pure foolishness.

    You can live in denial but you can’t change the fact that muslims are conditioned not to respect any other faith other than their own. This is the real problem. The political angle of Islam is the problem but naive people like you don’t want to see it.

    Why don’t you read a little bit about Islam, live with them, try questioning their belife and you will know how tolerant they are.

    Till then just read and understand.
    I’m being overly polite but kids like you deserve kick on the nuts.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I don’t need accolades. If you read my comments, I have merely tried to correct factual errors of bigots of both sides. I have lived with a lot of Muslims throughout my life and most of them have been splendid people. I do agree with you that quite a few Muslims are obstinate and stubborn in faith. That, unfortunately, is true for a lot of Sikhs as well. Ditto for a lot of people of other faiths. To an extent, Muslims get a lot of flak because of their huge number. That, however, doesn’t hide the fact that there is a problem. A lot of Muslims recognize that. If you look at the current thread, there are a few Muslims that acknowledge that problem and have been unfailingly polite despite the asinine behavior of you and your alter ego, Sanjeev. I fail to understand as to what purpose is solved by calling names and being a internet bully. I remember you saying earlier that you have a lot of Muslim friends and that is how you got to know their inner working. Pray tell me, then, why be friends with them. Aren’t you being a complete hypocrite? Be brave and tell them what you have been spewing here under assumed names. Hindus lost not because of people like us but because of double face cowards like you who behind the safety of their house make a lot of noise but run away with tail between their legs the moment a problem shows up.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ akash

    I think more dangerous are the people like you and arundhati roy…gang.

    You people can go to any extent to be politically correct..

    Everybody knows the true face of islam..but ignorants like you still want to bury your head in sand..and try your level best to befool others also..

    BTW i would prefer to be labelled as hindu fanatic ..if i can contribute in countering the menace of islam ..

    But people like you would always try to be labelled as secular..to people like you that is biggest achievement..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    I have been reading your posts patiently. You share most of my views about muslims. I have seen muslims from very close quarters. They behave differently in different situatations. When they are among many hindus, they turn all tolerant but as soon as they are among their own people, they behave very differently. Infact I have found that educated muslims are more fanatic than the uneducated one. The reason is that educated muslims are connected with global Islam (flowing from Saudi wahabis) and these are the people who spread hate in the society.

    As far as hindus not standing up to muslims is concerned, do not forget 2002 Gujarat riots. For last 25 years hindus have started countering muslim violence but they find support in cowards like you who hide behind fake principle such as non-violence and truth. You kind of people use gandhism to shield your cowardice. For once have courage and stand up to them.

    As far as I am concerned, I was always very tolerant and infact ignore some remarks from muslims about hinduism then I learnt if I don’t challenge them they will not stop. I started asking them difficult questions, questioned the very hype “islam is religio of peace” with facts. Infact one of the muslim friend of mine told me gleefully that they are waiting for the day when they can break up India again to create another pakistan. I just told him calmly that this times hindus will not allow you to repeat 1947 and you will be decimated. That SOB never opened his mouth. The muslims are mostly coward and are only agreesive when other side is in minority.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I am sure we have some common qualities, just as I have something in common with the neanderthal man, for example, in having facial hair. That said, I am highly mystified as to what did you find in common with me as regards our views about Muslims.
    I gather from your post that you are highly pleased that “hindus” like you showed their valour in Gujarat in massacring 1000 Muslims. Bravo! So, this is where you show your bravery lies, in raping and murdering innocent people. Disgusting. The only difference between you and the Taliban is a beard and a shower. Now, I know from where scums like Babu Bajrangi originate. I know your type. They dominate Shiv Sena and VHP and SIMI. And, I saw the bravery of your type when 26/11 happened. It is “Hindus” like you that populate those barbaric Khap Panchayats. If hinduism is defined by bigots like you, I am ashamed to call myself a Hindu. And, don’t hide behind that slimy reasoning that I-was-not-like-this-but-so-and-so made me a bigot. That type of reasons are a favorite of Taliban type rascals. You are a coward,of the worst type.

    @Sanjeev,
    You are just a troll. You don’t even read a post before shooting your reply. You are like a disc player that has its repeat on. No matter what the post is about, you have to post your nonsense that we have read a thousand times.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    I guess you are very high on opium. You are nothing but an a*hole who knows only blabbering.
    You don’t even know my background and you are getting all judgemental about me.

    But I don’t think low lives like you deserve any debate.

    Buddy, did you serve in Army? How many of your family members are in defence forces?
    How many of your family members have never indulged in corruption?

    You can’t even match my shoes.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    Have you served in the army, if that is your only benchmark of bravery. I haven’t and I am not going to latch on to the strings of what my so-and-so did. You need those crutches. I must say though, I have never heard anyone that I know of take pride in the massacre of Gujarat. Almost everyone I have talked to feels deeply ashamed that it ever happened. But, then it may be a reflection of company you keep. I am not going to abuse your family just because you are nutcase. We all have bad apples in our midst.
    You are right: I can’t even match your shoes. Yours are worn down, running after Muslim kids and women and butchering them, or exhorting others of your ilk to do the same.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ pandit Akash

    Yes I don’t read the post…coz i can easily infer what a muslim or an a$$hole like you can think….. from your so called reliance on Romilla thapar, Mridulla mukherjee, Bipin chandra version of history….

    You are nothing but a nut case who has been fed by congressi style sickularism…but yourself doesn’t know the true meaning and context of secularism..

    For people like you secularism is a big award…for which you people awe for..

    If you have so much intellectual level…i challenge you can’t stand anywhere near me..

    What you know is wikipaedia..knowledge…..

    If you have guts be come up with intellectual arguments for to counter my arguments..

    Next time i will stick to logical arguments if nutcasses like you or Zia resolve to answer my query and comments..

    If you don’t then i have full right to make inflammatory comments to offend people like you and Zia..

    Regarding your Khap panchayat things..i m sure you have no knowledge excpet being fed by the english media…and no knowledge of cultural context of the haryana punjab rajasthan western UP region..

    May be you are one of those who marry their own cousins…remain happy with that…Don’t impose your so called liberal thinking on others whose culture you don’y know..

    Rajeev Reply:

    You don’t know about my background so just stick to the topic rather than being judgemental. You are behaving as if you are epitome of humanity but the reality is you are a coward masked under liberal BS.

    What makes you think, I am proud of Gujarat Massacre? I am only saying that muslims have mellowed only after hindus have started responding in kind.

    Your kind of people actually find excuses so that you can save your skin from muslim ire. You are afraid of muslims and that is what makes you what you are..a eternal coward. You are a bootlicker so just remain one.

    I feel your kind of people are the reason why muslims are so agressive because you are ever ready to placate their gundagardi.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    You may be a lineal descendant of Raja Bhoj or Gangu Teli, but you are still a grade A jackass. I was right about you being a bully. Witness how the moment someone takes time to respond to your imbecile arguments, you start being mealy mouthed and saying things like “where did I say I was proud of Gujarat massacre”, etc. It may be right in your view to show people their place by raping their women and killing their children, but we live, or we claim to live, in a civilized society. To punish people is the work of judiciary. To settle such scores in streets or by lynching is considered barbaric. Notice that I used the word considered. I don’t want to shock you. It doesn’t matter what you believe or profess to believe. I am sure if you were a Buddhist, you would find some other argument to rationalize your nonsense.
    I must comment too, about your limited vocabulary when it comes to abusing people. I thought you could find some more colorful terms to describe people who make you look like an idiot. I guess I am hoping too much.
    Don’t throw around stuff about your background blah blah. It’s just plain silly. Grow up. You are not a good advertisement of your family, who I am sure, would be equally shocked at your lack of etiquette, common sense, and grooming. In that I must say, that Salahudding and Ali et al., for all their half-baked arguments, showed more culture than you. Sad.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ akash

    saare ettiquettes ka theka tumne hi le rakha hai …

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    After reading your reply, I can safely assume that you are nothing but a coward who will go to any length to appease muslims. You can live in your cuckoo world.

    You are hiding your weakness behind so called ettiquettes, culture etc…infact most of the Indians are experts in being moralistic and this is why we are butt of jokes for whole world. Even small countries don’t respect India because India is full of cowards like you. You are the kind of Indians who have shamed India infront of china.

    You are nothing more than spineless SOB.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I don’t need to fear my country being seen as weak till there are “shoorveer” like you to scare people with their tales about their family background blah blah. There is a saying in my place: “moonh se bagh marna”. You fit that mold perfectly: ***** cat outside your home, and tiger inside.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Rizvi,
    You have nothing to be proud of because you come from family of Rishwat-Khors. I can understand your guilt because you or your family have done nothing worthwhile for India so you hide behind fake liberal views and feel that you are doing great service to the nations.

    Your kind of guys will not hestitate giving your sisters to muslims just to keep them in good humour.

    Jankha..is the apt word for you..or may be ch*t ka dhakkan.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I believe your word and I have great respect for your family and their upright status and their manifold sacrifices for out country. I am so indebted to them. Please convey my deepest respect to all of your family members. There is one black sheep in your family, however. No prizes for guessing who that is, and I suspect, somewhere along the line, some doodhwala or parosi ke sharma ji is to blame.
    :)

    Akash Reply:

    As we can see, there is another idiot, Sanjeev, who is now going to enlighten us about the great traditions of Khap Panchayats. You should all be summarily kicked out of our country into NWFP.

  • Pete

    Muslims are their own worst enemy when it comes to people miss understanding them. Radical Muslim leaders are preaching hatred & violence against non Muslim & Muslims alike yet we hear nothing from the moderate Muslim condeming this criminal behaviouir. Why? In Australia we have many moderate Muslims that put their heads in the sand when it comes to condeming the radical element giving these criminals unfetted powers. We have Muslims that have come to Australia who have displayed such agrogant behaviour as to call our women meat to be raped while at the same time call Australian’s racist because we condem that behaviour. We have seen Muslim gangs rape western women because they feel western women are sub human being non Muslim. These are
    some of the issues Islam has to deal with if it wants respect from non Muslims around the world. Look at the UK where Muslims call for death against anyone who may insult Mohammad. What crazy illogical & backward behaviour is this. Australia is a generous country that has welcomed peoples from all over the world giving them equal status as Australians. In return we are disrespected by the people we have opened our hearts to. Islam needs to grow up & become adult if it wants respect.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Pete,
    You can’t really blame Islam for the stupidity of its followers. You may well recall the horrible treatment of Aborigines by the early church in Australia. As for the current Catholic Church, the less said the better. I am not even going to start on my own Hindu brothers. Detailing their cussedness would take a whole series of books.

    [Reply]

  • kkrishna

    Religion has no relevance in today’s world. Whatever religious rituals you follow, you are expected to do it within the 4 walls of your home or in the temple/church. Which means the world does’nt care what religion you follow. You are expected to behave in a certain way and treat people in a certain way irrespective of which religion you follow. You work & travel with people without knowing which religion they follow. So why does religion matter so much. All of us have to follow the laws-of-the land and behave in a civilized manner. We have to recognize the rights of others and be aware of our rights. All this should be embedded in us right from our school lives. So if religion is preaching opposite of this, then either we have to migrate to a place where it is acceptable or reject such a religion.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Vikas,
    It was not McCauley who was the Governor General during the time Sati was abolished. It was Lord William Bentinck.
    MacCauley came to India after the death of Rammohan Roy.

    [Reply]

  • Jam

    With due respect, I find a lot of people lack the knowledge in Islam. This causes misunderstanding. Those people who study this religion end up converting to Islam. Islam is the fastest growing in the west where there is freedom of religion. Majority of converts are women.

    Islam is the only religion that allows women to divorce men and there is no sati (jumping in the fire along with dead husband).

    1. First of all, there is rarely a single country that practice Islam. There may be several who claim themselves Islamic.
    2. Islam is the religion of God and it is designed to be bringing peace for all. The fact is lack of Islam has brought higher rate of birth of kids out of wedlock, abuse against women and lack of respect for women.
    3. There are millions of non- Muslims (mostly Hindus) in Middle East earn their bread and butter for their family. Which is very good news. It is the well established fact that Non-Muslims ALWAYS flourish during the Islamic rule in Spain and other parts of the world. There are 57 or so called Muslim countries but they practice democracy and none of them practice Islam. Probably they use Islam for their convenience.
    4. Again, Islam allows gay and others to live in peace and harmony and they have equal rights just like other human beings do.
    5. It is very rare that a person with a slightest knowledge in Islam converts to another faith. However, there is no law that tells to punish him or her for conversion to another religion.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Jam,
    By west, if you mean America, then Mormonism is the fastest growing religion. Incidentally, most of people who convert to Islam do so when they are in prison. Now, whether that is due to a change in heart or other things, one can never tell. In Europe, overall religious tendencies are going down, so I am not sure how you got your conclusions. I bet if there was a anonymous survey done in the Muslim world, there would be a lot of people marking themselves as just “cultural” Muslims. By the way, that argument that since a lot of people are converting to Islam, therefore Islam is the best, is a dubious argument. A lot of people elected Bush and Modi too.
    I also think that you woke up after 2 centuries of slumber. Sati has been discontinued for more than 150 years.
    “Again, Islam allows gay and others to live in peace and harmony and they have equal rights just like other human beings do.”
    Maybe, but we don’t see that in reality. Gays have a torrid time in all Muslim countries.

    [Reply]

    N. Soundara Rajan Reply:

    Jam what kind of jokes you have written. Let me clarify one by one.

    Your claim that Islam is the only Religion of God. But how can we verify that? Even if it is created by Allah, what is there to establish that Allah is God. Having few angels ( in my opinion angels are only fictitious) make one self a God? If Allah is really God why he is unable to convince the entire mankind so with logic. So it is only a matter of your faith that Islam is the only religion of God.

    In other societies large numbers of children out of wedlock are born. So what? They are also human beings. marriage is only a social agreement known to others. If two hearts joins together with pure love don’t need this social display. So children out of wed lock is not a shame to the society and in a religion can not accept them as human beings then that religion is not worthy of any respect.

    Don’t tell in the middle east there are only Hindus flourishing . What about the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Phillippinos etc. WhaT ABOUT THE hINDUS WHO HAVE MIGRATED TO cHRISTIAN COUNTRIES . dON’T THEY FLOURISH. dsON’T hINDUS FLOURISH IN iNDIA OR aFRICA. Hard and sincere work will bring prosperity, no matter where they are. Imagine what will happen to Arabs after the Oil dry up? they have to eat out of the interest on the money they have invested in western banks only.

    4. Again, Islam allows gay and others to live in peace and harmony and they have equal rights just like other human beings do. Just an Aligarh university professor had to suicide after receiving death threats because he was found to be gay and you can say that the treasts were issued by non Muslims.

    Only in Islam you say woman can claim divorce which is a tall claim. In the modern society any woman can ask for divorce if she don’t like her Husbands behaviour. But not so in Islam. Again about Sati

    This practice was started in Rajasthan when the invading muslim barbarians abused the conquered royal women in their harems. So they felt it is better to die in fire than being captured by the invading barbarians. So the minute they hear that a woman’s husband was killed in the war the wife burnt herself out of fear. Slowly few ignorant societies gave noble color for such heinous suicidal act and was practised in pockets of Rajasthan. I never heard if any such act was practised by Hindus in any other part of India. Definitely not in Tamilnadu, Andhra or karnataka or Keral and so on. So don’t attribute such a social practice into a religious practice. Such a barbaric custom was started to escae the barbaric acts of invading Muslims only.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Rajan,
    Actually Sati was widely practiced in most of North India. Ram Mohun Roy was a Bengali and even in Bengal, Sati was widespread. So you are not right on that one. As for the invasion of Muslim responsible for that custom, that is not a verifiable fact. Sati had started before Muslims came to India. You are talking about ‘Jauhar’, which the Rajput women used to practice when their husbands died in battle.

    [Reply]

    Vikas Reply:

    I have my doubts regarding how well spread the system Sathi was. We read in history about Jhansi Lakshmi Bai and also some other Hindu queen in south India who fought with British after their husband’s death. Sathi is never mentioned there. We cannot speak about Ram Mohan Roy’s reformation here, as these incidents have happened much before that. (How many of us have heard about such system having been practiced in our families long ago? I have seen my great grand mother living long time after her husband passed away. Agree, she belongs to 20th century. But never heard any such stories from her either. But shaving heads -yes, I have heard).

    Fact is, Ram Mohan Roy is contemporary of Lord Macaulay who brought the European education system to India. When the British were spreading their education system here, few negative aspects of Hindu society could have been magnified. I am not saying Sati system was never practiced. It may not be as well spread, as it is percieved to be.

    Akash Reply:

    Vikas,
    you need to get your hands on a good history book. Don’t be a lazy bum and circulate bazaar gossips. Rani Lakshmi Bai didn’t commit Sati because of her young son. By the way, have you heard about female infanticide being practiced in your family or other families. It happens even now, in case you haven’t heard about it. It may be that you belong to an enlightened family, which makes me despair even more, judging by the numerous errors in your historical knowledge.

    Vikas Reply:

    To Akash : Rani Lakshmi Bai didn’t commit Sati because of her young son. Does that mean Sathi was committed only by the wifes who didn’t have children ? Was there any such rule in Sathi ?

    Female infanticide happens in India – does that mean every female child is killed in India ? We need to abolish these practices. But after we bring out the law, let us not say – before this law was introduced every female child was slaughtered.

    To Ashish : Thanks for correcting the error. I am thankful for McCauley or Lord William Bentinck for their educational and social reforms. But we have a civilized society in India only because of their reforms – I can’t buy this fact. Practices like Sathi could have been changed by social awareness. Our society has always been dynamic.

    Good history book, where is it ? I am not asking for a history book written by an RSS person, who would say everything is/was perfect with Hinduism. It is as good as saying Quran has the solution to every problem we face in the modern world. At the same time, if a history book (either written by British or western influenced person) says Hinduism slaughtered all widows before British introduced their reforms – I feel, it is on the other end of the spectrum. Looking for wise knowledge from Akash, someone who has read the authentic (!?) history book and has an active bum.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shoeb K,
    Many (Most) of the seminal events in the history of reformation of Hindu society in India has been supported by legislation; some would even say initiated by legislation in the teeth of fierce opposition from the society at large.
    Take banning of Sati, widow-remarriage, banning child-marriage.. all done during the British raj. I would give a lot of credit to the Brits for sticking by priciples of common law, justice and plain decency. If the Brits had done similar favour to the Muslims by reforming by edict while they were still there, today, we would all be a lot better placed to take the next steps.
    Except for the anti-dowry harrassment act, similar boldness in social legislation in independent India has not been seen.
    I say this only to set a context for my response to your main question: what needs to be done?
    I had made a point here, that sometimes reform follows legislation and sometimes legislation follows a popular groundswell for reformation. Obviously, a popularly elected government has more constraints, especially today in India. But, the pace at which revivalism is gaining ground in India, especially among the Muslims, I do not think the government can afford to delay intervening in the socio-religious space of the Muslims.
    What needs to be done? Firstly, one law that governs all; every aspect of your life. Secondly, interventions like in Singapore to promote mixed housing, mixed schooling.
    The minority institutions must go; at any rate no religious instructions using tax-payer money. Immediate freeze on building temples, mosques, churches for the next 25 years (I should conceivably be dead by then :-) )
    All donations from foreign countries for promoting religious education must be stopped.
    Universal education must not remain in our statutes – RTE must be enforced. And, no, Madrasa education does not count.
    Women’s rights are women’s rights. Hindu women or Christian women or Muslim women.
    No tokenism: no Haj subsidy. A government that can’t find the money to educate more than 50% of the children or provide drinking water to a majority of its people can’t afford diversion of resources and dilution of focus.
    How to gain support from the community?
    Well, Shoeb, I am afraid, I do not get it when you say that the vast majority of Muslims just wants to get on with their lives, educate their children, earn a living and so on; but, are unable to speak out in fear of being killed. Killed? By whom? By other Muslims? No one has ever killed Javed Akhtar for stating he is a non-believer or Shahrukh or Salman for openly smoking and drinking.
    Stop that Mullah from coming home every evening to teach Quran to your kids. The improvement in your collective lives will be 30 dB in 3 years.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Ashish

    Agree on all points.. Long way to go. I wish our government behaved like Singapore govt and eliminated the minority rights that keep Muslims isolated, backward. There will eb some outcry, but I really believe it will die fast.

    Vijay Reply:

    concise but brilliant, ironically the political party that is best suited to implement this agenda is the BJP. It is all part of the BJP’s core agenda, but unfortunately they are getting themselves embroiled in unimportant side nonsense business.

    Satish Haldankar Reply:

    BJP best suited to implement the agenda?. LOL. Their principal objective is to establish RSS’ Hindu Rashtra. When given a chance, in spite of demolishing the Babri Masjid and the lies and attempt to cover up, what did they do during the six years? Orchestrated the Gujarat genoicde. Till date no remorse or apology, only lip service in condemning it. The majority of the people of India have seen the true colours of the BJP and they do not wish to see it in power – the last two elections are proof – from 180+ seats to 140 and last year to 116 and the next time it will be even lower. The fact that ‘they are getting themselves embroiled in unimportant side nonsense business’ (your words) is another reason for people of India not to trust them.

    Akash Reply:

    Vikas,
    I would be happy to recommend a few books, but judging from your infantile conclusions, that effort would be wasted.

    Mustafa Reply:

    It is true that in Quran there is no prescribed punishment for apostacy, but there are hadiths which commands to kill an apostate. Islam as preached and practiced normally do not exhibit inclusiveness and forebearance. Though this may not be the intention of founder of religion. But the flexibility and adaptation is somewhat absent in muslim culture, that may the case for other divine religion(s) too.
    I am of the opinion that muslims should start to practice religion privately, that is to treat religion as personal and do not impose values on others. They should stop portraying themselves as protector of the religion, as if they are made custodian or hired for the security of the religion.

    In Quran it is allowed to beat wife, if she disobeys.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @sanjeev
    You are probably talking about what is known as abrogation. This concept does exist as per which, what was revealed later supersedes the earlier revelations. But the verses which actually discuss this are like, we never abrogate anything, we only send a better or similar verse, don’t you know Allah can do anything.

    As far as I know the verses of Quran (as they exist) are not ordered as per the timing of revelation. So whether that verse is placed before the ‘Sword’ or not may not suffice, usually Mecca verses are supposed to have been superseded by Madina verses.

    But in the Innocent verse it isn’t too important, because of two reasons: Mischief makers are specifically excluded from this verse and secondly the word Innocent itself. Because, very clearly Quran does see the idolaters as the greatest sinners, so the question of Idolaters being innocent does not arise. ( Interestingly, most of the anti terror fatwas start with Killing of innocents is not permitted)

    Here is an extract of an article from a website named Islamic wisdom, asserting that Suicide Bombing is against Islam:
    http://islamicwisdom7.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/suicides-their-prohibition-in-islam/

    Quote : And, if a Muslim deliberately kills ANOTHER MUSLIM, then his recompense will be the Hell Fire where he will abide forever facing a dreadful penalty, and will additionally face the wrath and curse of Allah.[4]  Thus, a murderer draws upon himself not only the sin of what he has done, but would in addition also be drawing upon himself the sins of his victim/s too, and with these two burdens will be residing in the hell fire (5) Forever.

    This is the severity of the punishment for the murder of an INNOCENT SOUL.  If Punishment is to match the Crime, then the pro-rata magnitude of the punishment is such that each slaying of an innocent person will be treated by God as if the entire humanity has been slain[6] whilst each saving of a life will merit reward in similar ratio.  Unquote

    See how ‘Muslim deliberately killing another Muslim’ in first para smoothly changes to ‘murder of an Innocent soul’!

    Similarly, meaning of the word ‘Mischief’ could include quite a few things ( sometimes ‘corruption’ is also used). If you read Tafseers of Quran, the word Mischief and corruption are often explained as ’spreading Mischief through unbelief’. So back to square one. Now some people can object, how could we link mischief with unbelief? Correct question, but that question is to be asked from those Scholars of Islam, who wrote such Tafseers.

    So many (not all) Muslim commentators above kept on telling us that we were ignorant, we were hateful, we didn’t understand Quran etc., but none of them took the trouble of refuting the quotes/extracts I have given here!

    May be I should have quoted from some Zionist/neo-con/hindutva/Islamophobic sources, that is the only time they feel obliged to question/refute such interpretations, of-course such refutations are limited to applying any one of the four labels mentioned above (zionist etc.)

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @SKS

    For all the talks about Zionism, KSA and Israel are good friends..especially now that KSA knows Israel will do some monkey business with Iran!

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ SKS

    Thanx very much

    nahid Reply:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk

    hindu scriptures command its followers to worship one god. there is monotheism even in hinduism. then y this hue and cry. there r wrong doers in every religion . we hav yto hate the sinners and not the sinn.
    UPANISHAD:
    Upanishads are one of the sacred Scriptures of the Hindus.

    i. Chandogya Upanishad Chapter 6 Section 2 verse 1

    It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad:

    “Ekam Evadvitiyam”
    “He is one only without a second.” (Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 447 & 448)
    (Sacred Books of the East Volume 1, the Upanishads Part I Page 93)

    ii. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 6 verse 9

    It is mentioned in the Shwetashvatara Upanishad

    “Nacasya kascij janita na cadhipah”
    “Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 745)
    (and in Sacred books of the East volume 15, the Upanishads Part II Page 263)

    iii. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 19

    It is mentioned in Shwetashvatara Upanishad
    “Na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no likeness of Him”.
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg 736 & 737 )
    (and in Sacred books of the East Volume 15, the Upanishads part II, Page no. 253)

    iv. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 20

    It is mentioned in Shwetashvatara Upanishad

    “na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam”.
    “His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 737)
    (And in Sacred books of the East Volume 15, the Upanishad part II, Page no. 253)

    BHAGWAD GEETA 7:20
    The most popular amongst all the Hindu Scriptures is the Bhagwad Geeta.
    Bhagwad Geeta mentions
    “Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires worship demigods” that is “Those who are materialistic, they worship demigods” i.e. others as deities besides the True God. (Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)

    “He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginning-less, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds…”
    (Bhagwad Geeta 10:3).

    YAJURVEDA
    Vedas are the most sacred amongst all the Hindu Scriptures. There are principally 4 Vedas: Rig Ved, Yajur Ved, Sam Ved, and Atharva Ved.

    i. Yajurveda Chapter 32, Verse 3
    It is mentioned in Yajurveda
    “na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no image of Him”
    It further says, “as He is unborn, He deserves our worship”.
    (Yajurveda 32:3)

    (The Yajurveda by Devi Chand M.A. pg. 377)

    ii. Yajurveda Chapter 40 Verse 8

    It is mentioned in Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 8
    “He is bodiless and pure”.
    (Yajurveda 40:8)

    (Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph I. H. Griffith pg. 538)

    iii. Yajurved Chapter 40 Verse 9

    It is mentioned in Yajurved (Yajurveda 40:9)
    “Andhatma pravishanti ye assambhuti mupaste”
    “They enter darkness, those who worship natural things.”
    E.g. worship of natural elements air, water, fire, etc.

    It further continues and says
    “They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things”
    E.g. created things such as table, chair, idols, etc.

    (Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Griffith pg. 538)

    ATHARVA VEDA

    i. Atharva Veda book 20 hymn (chapter) 58 verse 3

    It is mentioned in Atharva Veda
    “Dev Maha Osi”
    “God is Verily Great.”
    (Atharva Veda 20:58:3)

    (Atharvaveda Samhita Vol. 2, William Duright Whitney pg. 910)

    RIGVEDA

    The oldest and most sacred amongst all the Vedas is the Rigveda.

    i. Rigveda Book no. 1, Hymn No. 164, verse 46

    It is mentioned in Rigveda Book no. 1, hymn No. 164 verse 46
    “Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti”
    “Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names”.
    (Rigveda 1:164:46)

    Truth is one, God is one, sages call it by various names.

    A similar message is given in Rigveda, Book 10, hymn 114, verse 5.

    ii. Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1

    Rigveda gives no less than 33 different attributes to Almighty God. Several of these attributes are mentioned in Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1

    a. Brahma – Creator – Khaliq – Rigveda Book 2 Hymn 1 Verse 3

    Amongst the various attributes given in Rigveda, one of the beautiful attributes for Almighty God is ‘Brahma’. ‘Brahma’ means ‘the Creator’. If you translate into Arabic it means ‘Khaliq’. Islam does not object to anyone calling Almighty God as ‘Khaliq’ or ‘Creator’ or ‘Brahma’, but if someone says that ‘Brahma’ i.e. Almighty God has got four heads and on each head is a crown and this Brahma has got four hands, Islam takes strong exception to it because such descriptions give an image to Almighty God. Such descriptions are also against what is propounded in Yajurveda Chapter 32, verse 3 which says:

    “Na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no image of Him”.
    (Yajurveda 32:3)

    b. Vishnu – Sustainer – Rabb : Rigveda Book 2, Hymn 1, verse 3

    Another beautiful attribute mentioned in the Rigveda Book 2, Hymn 1, Verse 3 is Vishnu. ‘Vishnu’ means ‘the Sustainer’. If you translate this word into Arabic it means ‘Rabb’. Islam has no objection if anyone calls Almighty God as ‘Rabb’ or ‘Sustainer’ or ‘Vishnu’, but if someone says that Vishnu is Almighty God and this Vishnu has four arms, one of the right arms holds the ‘chakra’ i.e. a discus and one of the left arms holds a ‘conch shell’ and Vishnu rides on a bird or reclines on a snake couch, then Islam takes strong exception to this, because such descriptions of Vishnu give an image to Almighty God. Such descriptions are also against what is taught in Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 8.

    iii. Rigveda Book 8 hymn 1 verse 1

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Ma Chidanyadvi Shansata”
    “Do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One, Praise Him alone”
    (Rigveda 8:1:1)

    (Rigveda Samhiti Vol. IX, pg. 1 & 2 by Swami Satyaprakash Sarasvati & Satyakam Vidhya Lankar)

    iv. Rigveda Book 5 Hymn 81 verse 1

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Verily great is the glory of the Divine Creator”
    (Rigveda 5:81:1)

    (Rigveda Samhiti Vol. 6, pg 1802 & 1803 by Swami Satyaprakash Sarasvati & Satyakam Vidhya Lanka)

    v. Rigveda Book no. VI, Hymn 45, verse 16

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Ya Eka Ittamushtuhi”
    “Praise Him who is the matchless & alone”.
    (Rigveda 6:45:16) Hymns of Rigveda by Ralph T. H. Griffith pg. 648)
    BRAHMA SUTRA OF HINDU VEDANTA

    The Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta is:

    ‘Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan”
    “Bhagwan ek hi hai dusara nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai”.
    “There is only one God, not the second, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit”.

    All the above quoted verses and passages from Hindu Scriptures clearly amplify the Oneness and Uniqueness of Almighty God, the Creator of all. Furthermore, they negate the existence of any other deity besides the One True God. These verses essentially propound monotheism.

    Therefore only if one carefully studies the Hindu Scriptures, will one understand and realize the correct concept of God in Hinduism.

    UPANISHAD:
    Upanishads are one of the sacred Scriptures of the Hindus.

    i. Chandogya Upanishad Chapter 6 Section 2 verse 1

    It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad:

    “Ekam Evadvitiyam”
    “He is one only without a second.” (Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 447 & 448)
    (Sacred Books of the East Volume 1, the Upanishads Part I Page 93)

    ii. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 6 verse 9

    It is mentioned in the Shwetashvatara Upanishad

    “Nacasya kascij janita na cadhipah”
    “Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 745)
    (and in Sacred books of the East volume 15, the Upanishads Part II Page 263)

    iii. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 19

    It is mentioned in Shwetashvatara Upanishad
    “Na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no likeness of Him”.
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg 736 & 737 )
    (and in Sacred books of the East Volume 15, the Upanishads part II, Page no. 253)

    iv. Shwetashvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 20

    It is mentioned in Shwetashvatara Upanishad

    “na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam”.
    “His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
    (Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20)

    (The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan pg. 737)
    (And in Sacred books of the East Volume 15, the Upanishad part II, Page no. 253)

    BHAGWAD GEETA 7:20
    The most popular amongst all the Hindu Scriptures is the Bhagwad Geeta.
    Bhagwad Geeta mentions
    “Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires worship demigods” that is “Those who are materialistic, they worship demigods” i.e. others as deities besides the True God. (Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)

    “He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginning-less, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds…”
    (Bhagwad Geeta 10:3).

    YAJURVEDA
    Vedas are the most sacred amongst all the Hindu Scriptures. There are principally 4 Vedas: Rig Ved, Yajur Ved, Sam Ved, and Atharva Ved.

    i. Yajurveda Chapter 32, Verse 3
    It is mentioned in Yajurveda
    “na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no image of Him”
    It further says, “as He is unborn, He deserves our worship”.
    (Yajurveda 32:3)

    (The Yajurveda by Devi Chand M.A. pg. 377)

    ii. Yajurveda Chapter 40 Verse 8

    It is mentioned in Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 8
    “He is bodiless and pure”.
    (Yajurveda 40:8)

    (Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph I. H. Griffith pg. 538)

    iii. Yajurved Chapter 40 Verse 9

    It is mentioned in Yajurved (Yajurveda 40:9)
    “Andhatma pravishanti ye assambhuti mupaste”
    “They enter darkness, those who worship natural things.”
    E.g. worship of natural elements air, water, fire, etc.

    It further continues and says
    “They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things”
    E.g. created things such as table, chair, idols, etc.

    (Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Griffith pg. 538)

    ATHARVA VEDA

    i. Atharva Veda book 20 hymn (chapter) 58 verse 3

    It is mentioned in Atharva Veda
    “Dev Maha Osi”
    “God is Verily Great.”
    (Atharva Veda 20:58:3)

    (Atharvaveda Samhita Vol. 2, William Duright Whitney pg. 910)

    RIGVEDA

    The oldest and most sacred amongst all the Vedas is the Rigveda.

    i. Rigveda Book no. 1, Hymn No. 164, verse 46

    It is mentioned in Rigveda Book no. 1, hymn No. 164 verse 46
    “Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti”
    “Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names”.
    (Rigveda 1:164:46)

    Truth is one, God is one, sages call it by various names.

    A similar message is given in Rigveda, Book 10, hymn 114, verse 5.

    ii. Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1

    Rigveda gives no less than 33 different attributes to Almighty God. Several of these attributes are mentioned in Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1

    a. Brahma – Creator – Khaliq – Rigveda Book 2 Hymn 1 Verse 3

    Amongst the various attributes given in Rigveda, one of the beautiful attributes for Almighty God is ‘Brahma’. ‘Brahma’ means ‘the Creator’. If you translate into Arabic it means ‘Khaliq’. Islam does not object to anyone calling Almighty God as ‘Khaliq’ or ‘Creator’ or ‘Brahma’, but if someone says that ‘Brahma’ i.e. Almighty God has got four heads and on each head is a crown and this Brahma has got four hands, Islam takes strong exception to it because such descriptions give an image to Almighty God. Such descriptions are also against what is propounded in Yajurveda Chapter 32, verse 3 which says:

    “Na tasya pratima asti”
    “There is no image of Him”.
    (Yajurveda 32:3)

    b. Vishnu – Sustainer – Rabb : Rigveda Book 2, Hymn 1, verse 3

    Another beautiful attribute mentioned in the Rigveda Book 2, Hymn 1, Verse 3 is Vishnu. ‘Vishnu’ means ‘the Sustainer’. If you translate this word into Arabic it means ‘Rabb’. Islam has no objection if anyone calls Almighty God as ‘Rabb’ or ‘Sustainer’ or ‘Vishnu’, but if someone says that Vishnu is Almighty God and this Vishnu has four arms, one of the right arms holds the ‘chakra’ i.e. a discus and one of the left arms holds a ‘conch shell’ and Vishnu rides on a bird or reclines on a snake couch, then Islam takes strong exception to this, because such descriptions of Vishnu give an image to Almighty God. Such descriptions are also against what is taught in Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 8.

    iii. Rigveda Book 8 hymn 1 verse 1

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Ma Chidanyadvi Shansata”
    “Do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One, Praise Him alone”
    (Rigveda 8:1:1)

    (Rigveda Samhiti Vol. IX, pg. 1 & 2 by Swami Satyaprakash Sarasvati & Satyakam Vidhya Lankar)

    iv. Rigveda Book 5 Hymn 81 verse 1

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Verily great is the glory of the Divine Creator”
    (Rigveda 5:81:1)

    (Rigveda Samhiti Vol. 6, pg 1802 & 1803 by Swami Satyaprakash Sarasvati & Satyakam Vidhya Lanka)

    v. Rigveda Book no. VI, Hymn 45, verse 16

    It is mentioned in Rigveda
    “Ya Eka Ittamushtuhi”
    “Praise Him who is the matchless & alone”.
    (Rigveda 6:45:16) Hymns of Rigveda by Ralph T. H. Griffith pg. 648)
    BRAHMA SUTRA OF HINDU VEDANTA

    The Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta is:

    ‘Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan”
    “Bhagwan ek hi hai dusara nahi hai, nahi hai, nahi hai, zara bhi nahi hai”.
    “There is only one God, not the second, not at all, not at all, not in the least bit”.

    All the above quoted verses and passages from Hindu Scriptures clearly amplify the Oneness and Uniqueness of Almighty God, the Creator of all. Furthermore, they negate the existence of any other deity besides the One True God. These verses essentially propound monotheism.

    Therefore only if one carefully studies the Hindu Scriptures, will one understand and realize the correct concept of God in Hinduism.

    nahid Reply:

    sorry.
    we have to hate the sins and not the sinner.
    also there r wrong doers in this world who may not completely follow the religion. for instance islam says do not lie. we have muslims who lie. islam says do not marry for the second time if u cannot do justice to ur wives. islam says feed the poor, be polite, if the non musoims utter abusive words to u say peace and move on, in order to avoid fights,. but we have opposite doers. islam is against terrorism but we have this world wide terrorism . the truth is that to end persecution thgere is jihad but this world allows us to follow one god and prostrate in front of him. infact is US , UK , India we are allowed to propogate our religion as well. the prophet was ostracised when he invited people towards the truth. for years he and his followers beared it but then when the non muslims invited for a war , it happened to end religious persecution. ppl r conducting bomb blasts for selfish motives not islamic purpose atall. may peace be upon all of u. and may all of u have a pure heart and please dont mailgn sucha impeccable man. read about his life- the sealed nectar by safi ur rehman mubarakpuri.

    i have love and mercy towards the fellow human beings of my country and i have a non muslim servant at home whom i really treat well for the sake of allah , as per my teachings. and i have non muslim freinds as well whom i dont want to hurt . even the prophet prayed for u and me as we are his ummah so that we could be saved from the hell fire. he has several sacrifices for us. study and then speak.

    thank you

    shan Reply:

    nahid, motarma, the concept of god in hinduism is tad complex than you think.. There is a debate whether god has form or not (Sakar VS Nirakar). The same school of thought thinks it is useless praying to God , because your HUMANISING god , Charity, love, kindness, benevolence are human attributes. God is SUPRAHUMAN not
    SUPERHUMAN OR SUPERMAN. There is another school of thought that thinks god or cosmic consciousness (Param Bramha) permeates every thing and by that logic there is god in everything.The Charbak school thinks there is no such thing as god , and the sole purpose of this life is to try to live to its full includind carnal pleasures.If you reduced Islam to praying once a day and in times of distress and enjoying all the festivals , and didn’t gine a toss about quoran, prophet or hadith and let your life dictated by science and rationality, then I would have nothing but praise for Islam

  • Anil

    Main, main & main problem with Islam is that unlike any other religion, Muslims don’t really protest against bad elements among them, rather a conspiracy of silence from the community gives indirect encouragement of it. This makes it look suspicious to others.

    [Reply]

  • bash

    Mohmmad was no holy man. He was responsible for one of the worst massacres of his time. UNder his leadership, all men and children who had barely turned into teens were beheaded after a war imposed on them in Bani Quraizya. The women were taken as s** slaves and children as slaves.
    Mohmmad showed no tolerance/mercy even for his own uncle who protected him from pagan arabs when MOhamad was ridiculing their gods and ancestors.
    FInd out how Umm Qirfa was killed by tying to two camels running in opposite ends and how Mohammad condoned such acts and even encouraged such acts and her crime was to lead a tribe inspite of being a woman.

    [Reply]

  • human

    Selectively taking one or two verses (one was even taken out of conetxt and only half of it was used to justify your argument) is not a thorough research. Im a PhD scholar,. A proper research entails researching all asepects and all verses and cross-referencing them across kuran and within and across the appropriate contexts.

    Just google and there are score of (many time more verses) encouraging muslims to eliminate non-muslims.

    I have few questions for you:
    1. Must Kuran be followed completely and blindly without modifictaion or chanegs to bring it to todays civilised society?

    2. What is your view about a 40 year old marrying a 6yr old and having sex when she was 9years old. Was is justified? should it be allowed? would you let this happen to your daughter even if the man inflicting this crime on her was a prophet of some kind? Do you support or are you against paedophilia??

    3. Shall muslims be allowed to convert to other religion as per their free will?

    4. Shall a muslim lady be allowed to marry a non-muslim without requiring the man to convert?

    5. Are teaching of kuran outdated? if not all, some teachings? if yes, then should tthey be changed? if not, then must they be shunned?

    [Reply]

    Honey Reply:

    Please correct your information explained at S.No.2. The Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

    [Reply]

  • Raghav

    Revival of Fundamentalist, hardcore Islam is a cause of conern. The moderate and tolerant Islam would fit today’s pluralistic world a lot better.

    However, the vilification and victimisation of All the Muslims because of the sins committed by a few , has caused this angry assertion , and revival of jehadi islam. This will only harm the Muslims in general and further alienate them and make them more suspect.

    In India, of older days, despite a few tensions and nuisances here and there, Hindus and Muslims have co-existed very nicely and Muslims have been and continue to be a very important part of India and are as much Indians as anyone else.

    Most of the the good artisans, artists,craftsmen, and creative artists happen to be Muslims. Imagin Bollywood without Dilip Kumar, Meena Kumari,Naushad, Mehboob Khan, K Asif. Sharhrukh,Salman & Amir today, Akhtar Ul Iman , and Kamal Amrohi, Kaif Azmi, and many other great wirters, musicians,actors,directors have been Muslims. Even today, best of the Chefs,Tailors,Craftsmen,Singers& Other performing artists, et all are Muslims.

    Muslims have made tremendous contribution to India and are an integral part of Indian society.

    Yes, there have been many bad guys, who hapened to be Muslims, they are there in every community, so what?
    Dont we have many Goondas,Gangsters,Smugglers,Traitors and other anti-social elements who are Non-Muslims?

    [Reply]

    Vikas Reply:

    In olden days Shakeel badayuni, Naushad and Mohammad Rafi along with Dilip Kumar will come together for the song “Madhuban me radhika nache re”. Still they could be pious muslims going to Hujj. Bismillah Khan, the Indian shehnai maestro, though a Shi’ite Muslim, could play in Hindu Temples. Similarly Gulzar was well respected as ghazal writer. There was mutual respect between both communities.

    Now ? People from both the faiths get into competetion to redicule the other. What is the big deal? Whether Pardaa is symbol of apprehension, liberation or expression of mystic beauty is upto a muslim woman to decide (for that matter any custom, as long as it is not harming the society). Why others have to jumpin to give their opinion? Similarly one paints the Godess of another faith in nude, and expect the other religion people to respect his creativity. Tolerance is all time low in the current society. People spitt venom (including this blog) and expect the other community to react passive.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ vikas

    gulzar is a sikh and not muslim.

    his full name is Sampooran Singh Kalra

    [Reply]

    Vikas Reply:

    That is what I meant. A Sikh could write an urdu ghazal and a Muslim could sing Bhajan. Now, both communities have gone intolerant.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ vikas

    Muslims haven’t got patent for urdu..

    Its basically combination of hindi and persian..

    Persian was invented by iranians before islam emerged from a cave in arabia

  • Sameer

    So, Final conclusion…Islam is not a relegion of peace and never will be unless there is some drastic changes in quran.

    [Reply]

  • ramesh

    Muslims have distroyed far more wisdom and knowledge in the last 1400yrs,than they have created.Their literalistic view of following has to change in the light of a plural world.Turkey has started reinterpretetion of the prenciples.or just stick to the 4 main pillars.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.drishtikone.com Desh

    The entire history of Islam and its issues / fights etc can be boiled down to just ONE:

    DARA SHIKOH vs AURANGZEB.

    Never in the history of Islam has Dara Shikoh ever won. He was been killed in every generation and in every fora.

    Aurangzeb is the only true personification of Islam.. for he has always killed Dara Shikoh.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Well, there was an Akbar. You are right in the sense the majority were of the other kind. Akbar had lots of opposition from the clergy.

    The issues Zia raised and all others blogged are all true. But, how will these be solved? Who should take leadership? How will the clergy’s (muulla, maulavi) hold be severed? Who will shut down the Deobandi school (to which Mr Zia has given eloquent tributes) ?

    On one side there is sunni extremists (al Quida, LeT etc) funded by the Wahabi/Salafi”religious police” of KSA. These nihilists are trying to establish their version of Islam. There seems to be no counter movement.

    I really believe Indian Muslims should take leadership in reforming Islam so it can exist in isolation as well as as a part of a vivbrant pluralistic society. If it cannot survive and thrive in India, it cannot survive anywhere else, even in Islamic countries.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Desh,
    Dara Shikoh lost because he was not an incompetent general. On both sides of that conflict, Rajput and other Hindu princes fought. Aurangzeb started his sharia practices later on. Aurangzeb for all his religious intolerance still ruled over one of the largest Indian empire ever.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ akash

    Btw by the later part of aurangzeb’s life rajputs had kicked his A S S ….and became independent ..

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    So did the Marathas, but how is this fact relevant to Desh’s logic.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Let us get some basics right:
    There is no such thing as a moderate or a radical Muslim, there are Muslims and then there are Ignorant Muslims. Of course, there are enlightened ones who have read Quran and understand the problem but are too few and hardly carry enough wait to make much difference.

    Those who are advising Muslims that today s problems can only be solved with today s tools or that religion should be restricted to Private sphere, need to understand that by saying so they are questioning the whole basis of Quran/Islam. Central to the foundation of Islam are two (among others) beliefs: Quranic revelations are applicable for all time and all places till Judgment Day and second: Islam is a complete system and contains guidance for every aspect of life, be it political, personal, social, economic whatever.

    You can see this belief expressed in some of the comments here as also in Zia’s approach for that matter. For everything he would want Muslims to do, he has to give a Quranic justification, whether it is about focusing on education or about not making issues out of India’s ties with Israel, or about polygamy, or about not killing of innocents

    So let us get this straight : arguments telling us to keep religion at home or to not be guided by scriptures or to think modern are useless, as many Muslims, including the highly educated ones are clear that Quran, it is which should determine how they live. So at one level this question has to be tackled at the level of interpretation of Quran.

    Someone has already explained the true import of that great favorite : ‘killing an innocent equals killing humanity. This is one verse which is employed by a great variety of people to make claims similar to ZIA’s. It is possible that many people actually believe so, but to believe that everybody preaching this verse has the same understanding as sought to be explained here is not tenable. Apart from the exception made for mischief-makers, there is also the question of innocence. Who is innocent ?

    Zia: Can someone guilty of greatest SIN be considered innocent? What about idolaters?
    Isn’t Idolatry the greatest sin in the Quran? One of the original greats Imam Shafi’i had clarified : for a servant to meet Allah with any other sin than IDOLATRY (shirk) is better than to meet Him guilty of anything of scholastic theology.

    Well the truth simply is this : Islam seeks to Rule the world, not spiritually but politically. Believers are supposed to be in a state of perpetual war against the Non Muslim world till all convert to Islam and in case of people of the Book (jews, christians a few more), they should agree to pay Jizya, which BTW isn’t some sweet little fee for exemption from joining the Islamic army.
    See my next comment.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ SKS

    I seriously want to know whether the verse often quoted by muslims regarding ” killing of one innocent is killing of humnaity ” comes prior to the verse of sword commanding muslims to behead the disbelievers ?

    Bcoz somebody told me that according to the principle of interpretation of quran if there is clash between two verses then the one which comes afterwards remains valid and prior one’s become null and void..

    Please can you give me numbers ..with chapter number etc of the other verse which orders killing of kaffirs ?

    You can see this documentary which talks all about quran

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Contd..
    Zia and his ilk can continue pontificating about the context, translation and interpretation, there is simply no way for them to claim that they know better than the scholars of AL-AZHAR University, the venerated seat of Islamic learning, President Obama chose for a new beginning between US and Muslims. There is this book ‘The Reliance of the Traveler’ that has simple and crisp answers to all those contrarian claims that Islam teaches tolerance etc. The book is available at http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_downloads/resources/reliance_complete.pdf) and at the cost of repeating myself, I will just quote the following for establishing its authenticity:

    ‘From a purely academic point of view, this TRANSLATION is SUPERIOR to anything produced by orientalists in the way of translations of major Islamic works’ : President of the International Institute of Islamic Thought, Member of Islamic Fiqh Academy at Jedda, President of the Fiqh Council of North America’ and;

    ‘we certify that the above-mentioned translation corresponds to the Arabic original and conforms to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni Community’ by Islamic Research Academy, AL-AZHAR (who have also stamped every page of the book with the seal of the department)’

    What is Jihad: – ‘Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.’

    There is another sentence following above: “And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad. “We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad.” (some more comments on Greater Jihad in the last few paras). It says then:
    The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus (def: b7) is such Koranic verses as:
    (1) “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216);
    (2) “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89);
    (3) “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36);
    and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah”;

    ‘Objectives of Jihad’: ‘The caliph (025) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non Muslim poll tax (jizya) which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (0: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax’. [Hanafis give the Jizya option to even idol worshippers, not under other schools]

    Is it a perpetual war? Yes the book says:
    ‘In the time of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) jihad was a communal obligation after his emigration (hijra) to Medina. As for subsequent times, there are two possible states in respect to non-Muslims. The first is when they are in their own countries, in which case jihad (def: 09.8) is a communal obligation, and this is what our author is speaking of when he says, “Jihad is a communal obligation,” meaning upon the Muslims each year’. [Note ‘for subsequent times’ and the ‘each year’!]. [The second state is of course the defensive one, in which case it is a personal obligation.]

    Even more dangerous are principles of ‘permissible lying’ and ‘misleading impression’: (page 744 – 747):- In plain and simple words, the book suggests that when the objective is ‘praiseworthy’, lying is permitted and when the objective is ‘obligatory’, lying is obligatory. [Even better] in such cases, religiously it is more precautionary to give a ‘misleading impression’ i. e. ‘to utter an expression that ostensibly implies one meaning, while intending a different meaning the expression may also have, one that contradicts the ‘ostensive’ purport’.

    Truce, when, why or how: Truce is permitted in following cases:
    - ‘there must be some interest served in making a truce other than mere preservation of the status quo’.
    - ‘Interests that justify making a truce are such things as Muslim weakness because of lack of numbers or material, or the hope of an enemy becoming Muslim.
    - If the Muslims are weak, a truce may be made for ten years if necessary, It is not permissible to stipulate longer than that, save by means of new truces, each of which does not exceed ten years.

    Greater Jihad : There are good reasons many scholars believe that this greater jihad was a very late addition to the original text and it does seem reasonable when you notice that the sentence starts abruptly with “AND it is the….) Curiously, there is a ‘Best Jihad’ also: – ‘The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust ruler’. The Best Jihad gets all of ONE sentence, the greater one, THREE; and the supposedly lesser Jihad, about 100. Some have claimed that, greater Jihad was a very late addition into the book; given its placement and no mention of any scriptural basis (and references), unlike most of the other topics for which a Koranic or Hadith reference is given. In any case, when the Book talks of Jihad it means the so called ‘Lesser Jihad’ except for those 4 odd sentences.

    In reality, revivalism, revaluation or valuation or market correction whatever you might call it there are no EXITS, unless you discuss the role of religion itself..

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @SKS

    I agree with most of your logical and factual propositions. All, including many Muslims (which includes me) agree with those. The challenge is how to declaw; what is the right process, who will take initiative etc. As you know, many Muslims are silent on this facing repurcussiosn from the extremists. You may ahve already noticed the preponderence of Burqua clad women in places (like South india) where it was a rare scene. You must have noticed the bearded men increasing in numbers. So, externally, it looks like the strict followers are getting stronger.

    My gut feel is that the majority wants to lead lives like Hindus or Christians or others, bringing up tehir children, giving a better future etc and are not doctrinal about living their lives “religiously”. However, amny do not talk or act openly because of the fear of being killed,

    I would like to see some constructive suggestions as to how this can be dealt with – the issues with the religion are well-known; can you suggest how “moderates” (I understand your differentiation here; I am using it to denote a silent majority who really want to get out like the Turkish did years ago) can bring the change without fearing a bloodbath.

    [Reply]

  • surya

    Former MUSLIMS SPEAK candidly about Islam, a must se. Surprisingly they all assert one conclusion: Muslims are good, qurran and Mahamad are HATEFUL &violent. They say change and modernization can not happen as a result. Google- wafa sultan, ayyan Hirsi ali, salman rushdie. More than that vist the weblinks run by muslims themselves.-faithfreedom.org, http://www.amilimani.com/, http://www.considerationsofacanadianex-muslim.org/, http://www.jihadwatch.org/

    Living here in US, we get excellent info from very reliable sources. unlike in India, american media don’t hide any information, news clips of Nithyananda were also printed here not to mention the child rapes of church officials and the cover up operation run by pope himself. Please explore the weblinks explaining the hatred in scripture and despicable personal life of mahamad. Pass on the links. Cheers- surya, chicago

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    Here it is the true face of islam.

    You just need to spend one hour and 40 minutes to understand all about islam..

    Then these psedo secular gangs can’t make claims that ” no religion teaches hatred”

    here the link:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ali
    Do you seriously want us to point out the massacres that Muslims have done?

    If yes, do let me know, I will provide you with some links from Persian History where the writers have proudly detailed the exploits of Gajhis about temples, civilian slaughters, about booty, about forced conversions etc. etc.

    But, before I do so, I request you to have a look at my comments down below about ‘Innocence of Idolaters” and about that book called Reliances of the Traveller. I have asked these questions many times from Muslims, but the usual response is either about the evils of hindu caste system or guidance that I should adhere to Hindu scriptures like Vedas which preach monotheism with links Dr Nayak’s lectures.

    Now I do agree that caste /untouchability is a despicable practice (you can add stronger adjectives) and it is possible that Rig Veda or some other Veda actually prohibit IDOL worship, but I still love worshipping idols (I know I should be ashamed). So those resposnes might be correct but they are not answers to my question, will be grear if you can help.

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    You sud be happy that media works extra hard to shun the negative deeds of muslims and islam otherwise u guys wud have come of as what u are Nazi like exclusivist ideology which brooks no divergence from its stand and kills anyone who choose to walk out of islam in classic gangster style

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    You guys should watch on youtube a paeodphilia socially sanctioned named bachchabazi in afghnistan.. Mullahs openly induling in homosexuality and paeophilia at the same time

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    There is a PBS documentary “Dancing boys of Afghanistan” about this topic.
    It exposes true face of Islam.

    [Reply]

    Ali Reply:

    please dnt attribute that to Islam. it is regional thing and Islam strictly prohibits such a thing. if you still persist with your views you are not objective in life which will pain you later in life

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    It is no different from a 52yr old person marrying 6 yr old girl ..
    those bachabazi’s are just following their founder (although with same sex)..

    show me a single verse in Koran which prohibits this.

    Sam Reply:

    Quran’s Chapter 2, verse 32, prohibits killing of innocents (which can be appropriated to modern-day terrorism): “…whosoever kills an innocent, it is as if he killed the whole of humanity, and whosoever saves a life, it is as if he saved all mankind.”

    This verse just says “killing unjustly”.

    So please define unjust.

    The next verse defines what is just and unjust.
    It says Jews and Christians can be punished as they are against allah, so they are bad guys.

    So Zia, stop your selective quotes and Taqiyya.

    Give a full picture.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    These people are condemed by every one….Now lets talk about legalized homosextuality in the west…better yet lets talk about Europeans going to Thailand for child sex and its perfectly alright…..

    Nobody in the Islamic country support and they have severe punishment for it is considered to be a crime

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Can We Do Something About Child Abuse This Children’s Day?
    Nov 14th
    Posted by meghna in Social Issues
    No comments

    14 November, the birthday of Jawahar Lal Nehru is celebrated every year as children’s day nation wide. There are programmes and events organised in various schools of the country. This year even multinationals like GOOGLE organised a doodle competition of the young artists.

    This certainly doesn’t seem enough. Organizing competitions at school or national level or declaring it a holiday would only give children some happy moments. It however ignores the happiness of those who are constantly deprived of it.

    Poverty in the country has lead to many things, one of them being the exploitation of children by the foreigner. The nude pictures of poor children are often uploaded on the Internet for the pleasure of the pedophiles. Not only this there have been instances when people from abroad adopt homeless Indian kids and then sale them in the markets pedophiles.

    The most disheartening thing is that we cannot blame people from outside alone. In face, they represent a very small number of culprits. Most of the children are exploited by their own father, close relative , neighbour or employer. They are often attacked by those who are there to protect them. Unfortunately, the kids are both vulnerable and terrified to disclose the reality.

    Sex is a taboo in India and when it is forced, the victims often resort to silence because they know they would get no support from the traditional Indian society. In most cases they are subjected to such objectionable acts continuously. It eventually destroys their state of mind. They abhor many things that remind of their childhood past. Even after becoming adults they are haunted by their disgusting childhood nightmares.

    If children are the future of the country then we have a responsibility to protect them. And if we can’t protect, we even have no right to celebrate Children’s Day.

    Distributing sweets in schools will give children pleasure but framing a law would protect them.

    The only laws that remotely address to these problems are sections 376, 377 of Indian Penal Code and some sections of the Information Technology Act, 2000. But there is no specific law that can punish pedophiles or can compensate the victims of such events.

    ShareThis

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Should America fund the Indian software companies any further? Look at what happened. Dateline MSNBC show under Chris Hansen tries through a sting operation to catch the intended pedophiles that use Internet chat rooms in America to have sex with girls thirteen year of age or younger. Interestingly, in the sting operation, scores of Indian software engineers were caught and arrested. They all came to have sex with thirteen-year-old girls.

    The blame really lies on American companies funding the IT sector of India for cheap labor. Indian Americans in America should not be blamed. Indian Americans do not support outsourcing of jobs and bringing in cheap labor from India at the cost of middle class America.

    One of the software engineers even claims he has a Ph.D. in computer science. We like to know how he got his Ph.D.? Was it in sexual exploitation of minors?

    What is really horrific and sad for India is that not one, not two, but many of these Indian nationals working for IT companies are caught red handed.

    The biggest concern for Indian Americans living in the United States is getting stereotyped as child sex offenders. These individuals who get caught may be a tiny fraction of the whole group of software engineers from India but the fact that so many Indians were arrested on TV is alarming. Indian American men (Citizens and Green Card Holders) do not want to get marked as sex offenders.

    The biggest question now is should America really fund the IT sector of India? Should American companies continue to outsource and bring in cheap labor for software work from India? Many of these companies send scores of Indian software engineers manipulating H1B and L1 visas. Some (a small percentage) come to the United States and start looking for girls. They do it in chat rooms of the Internet and elsewhere. These men are educated in India but obviously their education failed to make them ‘human beings’. Pedophiles who sexually exploit children and those having sex with teens are the worst creatures on the earth.

    Indian Americans are concerned about these Indian software engineers who are getting caught on the TV. They are a black mark on the community. Every one is worried that sooner or later bias will be formed against Indian American men who unlike these alien workers will have live in the United States.

    Dateline MSNBC acted as a net to catch these pedophiles. The Indian IT sector obviously does not know what these guys are doing in America. It is an alarm for all Americans including Indian Americans.

    Please note one thing, not all Indian software engineers are bad. The alarm goes off when so many of these Indian software engineers are arrested as ‘intended pedophiles’. The blame lies on those American companies that outsource and get work done for low price.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mohammad raped 9 year old Ayesha…Should US fund muslims?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Yes, We should condemn Mohammad for child sex to mark this day.

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Well said! Muslims are the epitome and Islam the crescendo of HYPOCRISY!

    prashantkumar137 Reply:

    Even your prophet was a pedophile who married a 6 yr. old Aisha and banged her when she was 9. And he is your ultimate and supreme ideal. Stop lying! Sorry, I forgot, lying (Taqiyya) is a religious duty of Muslims as ordered by Quran!

    [Reply]

    nahid Reply:

    The Prophet married Aisha for the benefit of Islam and Humanity.

    Lets analyze…

    The Prophet married Aisha primarily for three reasons:
    To reinforce the friendly relations already existing with Abu Bakr (his closest companion).
    To educate and train Aisha so she may serve the purposes of Islam.
    To teach her to utilize her capabilities for the sake of Islam.
    Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahi (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet, ‘He said, “I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that…” Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p.285.

    Aisha ® was born after her parents had embraced Islam. Therefore, she was free from the defilement of polytheism right from her birth.

    In her youth, already known for her striking beauty and her formidable memory, she came under the loving care and attention of the Prophet himself. As his wife and close companion she acquired from him knowledge and insight such as no woman has ever acquired.

    Aishah lived on almost fifty years after the passing away of the Prophet. She had been his wife for a decade. Much of this time was spent in learning and acquiring knowledge of the two most important sources of God’s guidance, the Quran and the Sunnah of His Prophet. Aishah ® was one of the three wives (the other two being Hafsa ® and Umm Salamah ®) who memorized the Revelation. Like Hafsa ®, she had her own script of the Quran written after the Prophet had died.

    So far as the Hadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aishah ® is one of four persons (the others being Abu Hurrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, and Ana ibn Malik) who transmitted more than two thousand sayings. From her, 2210 Hadith have come, out of which 174 Hadith are commonly agreed upon by both Bukhari and Muslim. Many of her transmissions pertain to some of the most intimate aspects of personal behavior which only someone in Aishah’s position could have learnt. What is most important is that her knowledge of Hadith was passed on in written form by at least three persons including her nephew Urwah who became one of the greatest scholars among the generation after the Companions. It is the claim of the Scholars of Islam that without her, half of the Ilm-I-Hadith [knowledge, understanding of the Hadith (and Islam)] would have perished.

    Many of the learned companions of the Prophet and their followers benefited from Aishah’s knowledge. Abu Musa al-Ashari once said: “If we companions of the Messenger of God had any difficulty on a matter, we asked Aisha about it.”

    “Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that Abu Musa al-Ashari came to Aishah, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to her, “The disagreement of the companions in a matter which I hate to bring before you has distressed me.” She said, “What is that? You did not ask your mother about it, so ask me.” He said, “A man penetrates his wife, but becomes listless and does not ejaculate. “She said, “When the circumcised part passes the circumcised part ghusl is obligatory.” Abu Musa added, “I shall never ask anyone about this after you.” Al-Muwatta of Imam Malik Hadith 2.75

    Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha ®) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha ® in resolving intricate issued”.Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26

    Abu Musa al-Ashari says: “Never had we (the companions) had any difficulty for the solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from her”.Sirat-I-Aisha, on the authority of Trimidhi, pg. 163

    As a teacher she had a clear and persuasive manner of speech and her power of oratory has been described in superlative terms by al-Ahnaf who said: “I have heard speeches of Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman and Ali and the Khulafa up to this day, but I have not heard speech more persuasive and more beautiful from the mouth of any person than from the mouth of Aishah.”

    The Prophet said, “The superiority of ‘Aisha to other ladies is like the superiority of Tharid (i.e. meat and bread dish) to other meals. Many men reached the level of perfection, but no woman reached such a level except Mary, the daughter of Imran and Asia, the wife of Pharaoh.” Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Narrated by Abu Musa Al Ashari Hadith 4.643
    Musa Ibn Talha ® says, “I did not see anyone more eloquent than Aisha ®” Mustadrak of Hakim, Vol.4,p.11

    Men and women came from far and wide to benefit from her knowledge.

    Aisha’s great interest in the study of the Qur’an is understandable. She was an eye-witness to a number of revelations and had therefore a clear idea of the circumstances in which they were revealed. It was on her bed alone (and no other consort’s) that the Prophet received Wahi (Divine Revelations) several times. This helped her in interpreting the verses.

    At the time of the Prophet’s death, the Prophet’s head was on her lap. It was in her quarters that the Prophet was buried.

    The life of Aishah (R) is a proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also a proof that a woman can exert influence over men and women and provide them with inspiration and leadership. Aisha (R) is a continuing inspiration and role model to today’s youth who are diligently searching for an example amongst the pop stars, movie actresses and sports stars. May the memory of her’s live forever in the heart of the Muslim Ummah and may Allah grant her the highest abode in Paradise…Aameen.

    Conclusion:

    It was the aforementioned qualities of Aisha ® and the Prophet’s guidance in molding these capabilities for the service of Islam, were the main reasons, why the Prophet Married young Aisha ®, and not the perverted reasons brought forth by misguided orientalists.

    Muslims invite all sincere humans to study the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon) in the light of the authentic sources of the Quran and the Sunnah (exemplary sayings and deeds of the Prophet) and judge for themselves where the truth lies. Indeed, by recognizing the truth of Islam as the final and complete Guidance sent by our Creator can humanity find lasting peace in this world and a means of salvation from the hell fire in the hereafter.

    “I have studied him – the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.” George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

    Though, the Prophet is not among us in his flesh, but his exemplary life has been preserved for all humanity to follow.

    When Truth comes Falsehood disappears, Islam came, now Shirk (polytheism) must clear

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

    ram Reply:

    @nahid, your reaction is very typical of stone-headed Muslims who go into cerebral apoplexy and start having some kind of an epileptic fit the moment they are made aware of the shameful deeds of your pedophile prophet! Such a uselessly long rant and not a single word about my central argument. You waxed lyrically eloquent about your prophet, but avoided saying a word about consummation of marriage with a 9 yr. old Aisha. Because you know that the moment you will start your taqiyya to disprove this true fact, I will quote verses from the Quran, Hadith and Sirat to prove that your Prophet was a pedophile! And actually till the Muslims came into contact with the civilised world, they never felt anything wrong about defloring a nine year-old child and did not change the age of Aisha at marriage and consummation in their books. So the secret was out before they could obfuscate it by taqiyya! Say loudly- Mohd. is a pedo, Mohd. is a pedo!

    nahid Reply:

    SLAM’S INFLUENCE ON MARTIN LUTHER: Martin Luther’s schooling included the Latin school at Mansfeld, a year at a school in Magdeburg (run by the Brethren at Eisenach). In his 15th year, Luther made valued older friends and was influenced by Arian ideas. Luther’s ideas led to the Christian reformation. Here are some of the positive things said by Martin Luther about Muhammad and Islam:

    From this book, accordingly, we see that the religion of the Turks or Muhammad is far more splendid in ceremonies—and, I might almost say, in customs—thanours, even including that of the religious or all the clerics. The modesty and simplic-ity of their food, clothing, dwellings, and everything else, as well as the fasts, pray-ers, and common gatherings of the people that this book reveals are nowhere seenamong us—or rather it is impossible for our people to be persuaded to them. Fur-thermore, which of our monks, …Martin Luther

    In 1532 facing the threat of the Turkish invasion, the Emperor agreed to a truce with the Protestants in the Religious Peace of Nürnberg. Facing the Turkish invasion Luthers’s ideas changed. Bernard Shaw also had a lot of good things to say about Islam.

    …the ‘Bull’ of Pope Innocent III causing the massacre of 20,000 men, women and children (Albigenses) in France and the nailing of Martin Luther’s 95 questions on the Church door in Germany, it stretches a long period in between. The European society passed through a massive reform during this time. The reform movement of Peter Waldo of France, John Wycliffe of England, Jan Hus of Bohemia (Czech), Girolamo Savonarola of Italy, Michael Servetus of Spain, Ulrich Zwingli of Switzerland, William Tyndale of England and hundred others must have influenced Bernard Shaw to lean heavily towards the fairness of early Islam – the Islam that Pophet Muhammad once preached.

    ANNIE BEASANT ON PROPHET MUHAMMAD- THEUY STUDIED THE PROPHET’S LIFE.
    It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran….The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’, is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honours of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.
    Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay,
    History of the Saracen Empire,
    London 1870, p. 54.

    It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that might Arabian teacher.
    Annie Beasant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad,
    Madras 1932, p. 4

    shan Reply:

    No its not perfectly allright , there are laws in Uk that if found doing dirty things in thailand, and the come back to uk , they will be prosecuted. There is vigilante hatred against paedophilia in uk , so much so a doctor just because her title read paediatrician , some fools mistook it for paedophilia and vandalised his house. The onle thing Islamic country needs is the right to speak your mind , and speak against the religion like rest of the “modern and yes civilised ” world.That does not mean mosque and Id will vanish but it will become secular. Then again I am mad knowing what happened to poor salman rushdie asking to venture on this perilous path. Unless oil dries up or a alternate is found nothing will happen.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Nahid, if that is exemplary life then warren beaty led a exemplary life. God, sorry allah help, please compare your prophet’s life with Jesus, Buddha, and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (HareKrishna) , read their biography and compare, all will be clear , sanity will prevail. What you describe about Ayaisha’s prudence and knowledge seems to me soft porn, certainly millions miles way from being anything spiritual. Incredible how barbaric arabs were, a man asking a married young wife about ?premature ejaculation or anorgasmia, perhaps you can through some light. Also if prophet was so omnipotent how come child mortality in saudi before oil(read introduction of modern rational fruits of western civilzation) was fifty per hundreed , after oil fell to five per thousand. Did prophet have cure for cholera , small pox , could he communicate with people few miles away with being in contact(Read Telephones). Prophet had an incredible habit of puuling out divine commandments just to suit his purpose. The fact was Ayesha was unbeleivably pretty , and could have have served all the causes of Islam without marryinh him. Also there is an anecdote (correct me if I am wrong) when they were sleeping together he apparently turned to ?Zeenat and was close , ayesha complained because apparently it was her turn , and prophet immediately pulled off another divine dream to save his skin.

    nahid Reply:

    Ayisha razi allahu ta’ala anha used to communicate to the people from behind the curtain. And girls in islam cannot be married against their will. the marriage is considered void. Also, Prophet Muhammad was the best to his wives- so they all wanted him to be around and they all have spoken beautiful things about him in several hadiths. Also his wives were given a choice in the quranic verse which says SAY O MUHAMMAD TO YOUR WIVES THAT IF YOU CHOOSE THE WORLDY RICHES AGAINST AKHIRA AND THE PROPHET, I WILL LEAVE YOU NICELY AND FULFILL YOUR WISH.
    BUT THE WIVES CHOSE THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD SALLAHO ALAIHI WASALLAM. IN ISLAM YOU HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR WIVES NICELY WITHOUT ANY MALIGNING AND HARD BEHAVIOUR IF THERE IS A NEED FOR DIVORCE BUT ALLAH SAYS TO AVOID A DIVORCE IS BETETR RECONCILIATION IS BETTER. Ayisha herself is the witness of revelations- she says i saw prophet MuhAmmad receiveng revelations of Quran, she said once while receiving it his forehead was sweating in a very very cold night. ALSO THE 9 YR OLD AYISHA LOVED THE PROPHET SO MUCH AND USUALLY DO YOU THINK IT SI ACOORECT TO TREM THIS LOVE AS A CRIMINAL ACT THAT U MENTION. NAUZULBILLAH.
    tHE QURAISH APPROCHED THE PROPHET AND OFFERED HIM – IF YOU WANT THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN WE WILL PRESENT TO YOU THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN FOR YOU AND IF YOU WANT TO BECUM THE CHIEF WE WILL AMKE YOU OUR CHEIF , IF YOU WANT BIG PALACE WEALTH WE WILL GIVE YOU THAT BUT YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP THE CALL TO ISLAM- tHIS WAS SAID IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS CHACHA-HIS SUPPORTER WHO DIDNT SAY THE SHAHADAH AND CONVERTED TO ISLAM. sO THE PROPHET mUHAMMAD SALLAHO ALAIHI WASALLAM SAID- IF YOU KEEP THE SUN IN MY ONE HAND OR THE MOON IN ANOTER HAND- I WOULD STILL NOT STOP INVITING PEOPLE TOWARDS THE TRUTH AND HE BURST INTO TEARS. BECAUSE HE HAD LOVE FOR EVEN TEH PEOPLE WHO DNT ACCEPT ISLAM. tHEN THE CHIEFS LEFT UNHAPPY AND THE CHACHA ABU TALIB TOLD HIM YOU INVITE PPL TOWARDS ISLAM IA MA WITH YOU UNTIL MY LAST BREATH. BUT HE BELIEVED IN MUHAMMAD AND ALLAH BUT HE DIDNT SAY THE SHAHDA TO KEEP HIS ANCESTRAL PRIDE INTACT.
    THE MEANING OF KEEPING THE SUN IN ONE HAND IS – IF YOU GIVE ME AS MUCH AS HARDSHIPS YOU WANT AS SEVER AS THE HEAT OF SUN AS NOBODY WOULD LIKE TO BE CLOSE TO TEH SUN AS IT WOULD BURN YOU. oR THE MOON WHICH GIVES COOLNES- AS MUCH AS PLEASURE YOU WANT TO GIVE. HE STILL WILL NOT ACCEPT THE PAGAN WAYS WHICH WERE INFANTICIDE, IDOL WORSHIP, THEY USED TO GO AROUND THE KA’BA NAKES, THEY TREATED WOMEN BADLY.ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGIOMN THAT GVES WOMEN RIGHT IN PROPERTY, DIGNITY EVERYTHING. OUR PROPHET IS VERY NICE. DONT SAY SUCH HUMILIATING THINGS ABOUT HIM. ITS SO WRONG U R HIS UMMAH. HE SACRIFICED SO MUCH. HE HAD THE WORLDY RICHES WITH HIM AND HE GAVE IT UP IN CHARITY . HE COULD HAVE BUILD PALACES BUT HE DIDNT DO SO. Y R U AFTER THIS MA’ SOOM PROPHET. U DONT KNOW ABOUT HIS LIFE. IM IN TEARS. DONT SAY THIS.

    Also, Muhammad sallaho alaihi wasallam had to bear severe hardships for bringing islam into existence. There was a jew old lady who sued to throw The way of the Prophet Muhammad SAW was to treat the non-Muslims with kindness, love and mercy. Time and time again he did it. Prophet Muhammad SAW treated with respect a particular elderly non-muslim woman in Makkah. Everyday, before the Prophet SAW left his house to go to the Kabah, this elderly woman would throw trash in front of the path of the Prophet SAW out of disrespect and because she didn’t like the message that the Prophet SAW was preaching. One day, the Prophet SAW was leaving his house and he didn’t notice any garbage in his path and so he thought that maybe the old lady was sick, and that is why she was unable to throw her garbage this particular day, and so he went and visited her.

    When this elderly lady first saw the Prophet SAW, she was scared, because she knew what she had been doing. She asked why he had come. The Prophet SAW responded by saying that he knew that everyday she would throw garbage in his path, and today he didn’t find any garbage in his path, so he thought she might’ve been sick and that’s why he came to visit her. This response of the Prophet SAW softened the heart of this non-muslim lady and she was convinced that the Prophet SAW is truly a messenger of Allah, and she uttered the shahadah.
    She told him that these jews had told me to do so and i listened to them but none of them came to visit me when i am down with illness.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Shoeb
    You are right on that.I am sure, that the Pakistani version of those 4 options would soon include SA given the recent moves from here.

    As for your question on constructive suggestions, I am still thinking (obviously far more complicated than criticising).

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    A*holes like Akash are the ones who are happy getting their womenfolks f*cked by muslims. I find that hindus are the biggest enemy of hindus. Have they forgotten how brother of Indian muslims living across the border decimated the hindu minority in their land. What is the gurantee they won’t do it again when they turn into majority or near majority. I guess then people like Akash will convert and give their women to muslims.

    I feel like breaking faces of cowards like Akash..G*nduchap.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    hehe..You are funny, Rajeev..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I’ll be more funny if I broke your face. Your kind of laundiyachaap people are the reason muslims are ******** India left right and centre.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    tsk. tsk. This reminds me of school fights.

    Rajeev Reply:

    When I break your mullah face, you will not remember anything.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash Gupta Rizvi,
    Why don’t you just accept that you are a muslim troll..what is the shame in accepting your true identity.

    Akash Reply:

    Rajeev “Phat-Phat” singh,
    I am glad you have expanded your vocabulary and learned to use “troll”. Good!

    nationalist Reply:

    “I find that hindus are the biggest enemy of hindus.”

    Completely agree.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @SKS

    You have brought up the (inteersting) fact that there cannot be an “either’ “or” situation within Islam.

    There is a basic principle in Quranic scripture- unknown to most of the non-observing Muslims (is this an oxymoron term?) and most non-Musl;ims- called “commanding right and forbidding wrong”. It obligates Muslim males to police behaviour seen to be wrong and personally deal out the appropriate punishment as stated in the scriptrure. So, one can put out an outcome (like death to somebody who has drawn a pic of the prophet or like the recent Islamic website remarks about the death of USA TV South Park episode producers) on a site or in their publications; somebody will read it, and take law in their own hands. The killing of of Van Gogh, multiple attacks on Kurt westergard (the Danish cartoonist) etc are the manifestations of this principle, appealing to like minded individuals to acrry out the divine punishment. A Somali man went all the way from Somalia to axe Westergaard.

    Muslims have a huge challenge; unfortunately, they are the only ones who can sttraighten their future.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi

    http://warismazhari.blogspot.com/2010/04/critique-of-doctrine-of-offensive-jihad.html
    This is one of the rare articles where a Maulana honestly acknowledges the reality of Offensive Jihad doctrine – perpetual war till all accept Islam for Pay Jizya. It mentions its wide acceptance and the underlying Quranic Verses. Unlike others, who want the non-muslims to believe that Jihad means fighting the evil within and that Islam does not permit violence except in self defence.

    Honest attempt, but ineffective. His case against the doctrine is based on (1) the definition of Fitna in present context and (2) arguing that the some verses were applicable, only for Pagan Arabs.

    As we know his 2nd argument goes against the foundational doctrine of all time-all place.

    He defines Fitna as ‘conditions that stand as a barrier preventing the servants of God from accepting the Truth’, and argues that in present context nobody prevents you from accepting the truth.
    It does not fly, b’cos one could always claim that continued existence of religions like Christianity, hinduism etc., does prevent the non muslims (excluding the atheists) from accepting Islam?

    But then, it is not Maulana’s fault. As long as the all-time all-place idea flies, so will the offensive jihad doctrine.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @All commenting here

    Once more, Please Keep the language civil, it only diminishes argument. Especially Rajeev

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    I agree with you SKS. And, thank you for keeping the discussion productive. You have raised some excellent points.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I am just having fun…because all this debate is pointless.
    There is no scope for any reform in Islam because it is based on lies and deceit. Till those lies and deceit are accepted by muslims, Islam will continue to be object of hate.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish

    …long time

    Your points are well taken, but you (and everyone else) has not been able to address the root cause -. how to get support from the muslim community – if you get that then indeed, the solutions you suggest would not be required!.

    What shoeb says is correct ie. almost all muslims want to get on with their lives. To elaborate….

    Firstly it would not be an exaggeration to say that extremely few a non muslims can understand the muslim psyche.

    I had parents who, by and large, were non observant muslims & therefore am lucky to be able to break out of the cast, so to speak. However a typical muslim is exposed to Islam from his childhood. Make no mistake, the control Islam exercises over its followers is through fear. He/she is told of the god who would throw them into everlasting hell for their transgressions(check out the muslim hell on the net) and such transgressions can include most of everything (including stopping your children from learning, sorry memorising the quran, speaking out against any flaws they find in the religion etc. I personally know many muslims who do not have much faith in the religion but they also chose to keep quiet. why – because they do not want to take even that one in a million change to offend their god – remember the muslim hell.

    So what can be done? It can only be a generational change…..

    to continue……

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @syed
    Welcome back Syed Bhai

    More voices like yours and shoeb’s actually make my job difficult (e. g. Shoeb asking me how do we change that? since his question, I am struggling to write even two decent paras yaar)

    As it is, I prefer dealing with those, who either keep mum or call me a bigot. (you know, over here, we have them in abundance, both the ‘deniers’ and the anti-bigotry prophets).

    BTW I found another voice of reason (and even better he happens to be editor of an Urdu monthly magazine ‘Tarjuman Dar ul-Uloom’, the official organ of the Deoband Madrasa’s Graduates’ Association) check out when you’ve time.

    http://warismazhari.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed, a few like you and we will see a martin luther of islam challenging the exploitation and religious colonisation by saudi arabia, and India will have its own brand of islam which will be like twin brother of hinduism like bhajans in temples and quawali in dargah.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    …i mean they do not want to take the 1 in a million chance to find that they were wrong when they died. The indoctrination muslims receive since childhood is extremely strong. Indeed I would say it becomes practically hard coded…

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Syed,
    Yes, long time. I am no longer very regular here. And you? How have you been? Are you down under now? For good?
    I think I do understand this concern with hellfire and damnation. Which is why I opened with the reforms in the Hindu society first. Read again, “I had made a point here, that sometimes reform follows legislation and sometimes legislation follows a popular groundswell for reformation.”
    Do you really think that Rammohan Roy or Vidyasagar would have been able to achieve reforms without the British being there to push the necessary legislation? And, don’t fool yourself. Vidyasagar was not a popular figure for getting his son marry a widow in order to kick-start the widow-remarriage. Some of the “hate limericks” penned in those days, still survive.
    Social reform does not happen in one day; it does not even happen in one generation. Witness the appalling atrocities against women, socially backward classes, caste wars..
    But, that being said, nothing can happen without there being a start.
    Democracy can, and does mean having to sometimes take decisions that may not be “popular” with all sections. As rulers of the country, one expects the government of the day not just to govern for today but to build a edifice for the future.
    Muslims have to ask themselves: do they want to survive as some sort of “quaint” figures, comfortable in their walled gardens (physically and metaphorically) or do they want to be like everyone else? See the strides made by Dalits since independence; and no, it is not just Mayawati. They have done so by actively demanding and sharing space with the upper castes; not by insisting on a separate identity.
    I don’t agree that this is only a matter for Muslims to decide how they want to live.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Dear SKS
    Thanks, we need people like you otherwise the blog will become boring. The link you gave is interesting, just goes to prove what I always say – there are both good and bad in the religion (as in all religions!) . Unfortunately muslims lay more stress on the negative aspects & on rituals. Thats something that needs to change.

    Dear Ashish,
    Even I am not regular here. And yes, I’m down under for the time bing at least.
    Actually my comment about muslims being afraid of eternal hellfire was made in the context of someone here asking why muslims do not speak up even when confronted with obvious flaws
    in their religion.
    I personally believe that muslims should be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, come what may. Otherwise they will find themselves at the sidelines in the world stage. Only those who adapt survive!

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Syed @Ashish @SKS @Shoeb

    All refreshing thoughts and ideas! I for one hope and pray Indian Muslims will find the right anchor and be proud and willing participants of this wonderful place of ours. When Manmohanji says all should contribute and benefit; he means all. Muslims cannot remain bystanders; as Syed said they have to seriously evaluater how corroding the influence of early madrasa education and Mullahs are.

    As for zia’s headline “Revival vs re-valuation”; it must eb a revival; because re-evaluation will always bring to teh same point (“Quranic verses are universal, it is the wrong interpretation etc etc monkey business that we have heard million times”

    [Reply]

    Sanjay Reply:

    Who is going to be this right anchor to bell the cat? Dalits have Mayavathi (whether she is honest or corrupt). Muslims haven’t found any. Either they have a very religious Mullah who looks like them, prays like them and propagate regressive thinking – or a progressive thinker speaking about liberal Islam, but neither looks like them (I mean, with westernized looks) nor prays like them. So, they choose former as their leader. (I don’t want to count on old leaders. Shahabuddin or Bal Thakre, they are like my own Granny with temper problem and tantrums). I have not seen any middle aged, middle class leader who is pious muslim on one side and can take on the people preaching radical Islam on the other side. Someone who can negotiate with the other community in sensitive issues rather than being stubborn.

    I feel, people who have suffered from radicalization of Islam should come out and be vocal about it. Can a mother, who rised her children to get good education (to be a doctor and engineer), finally to see one of them dead and the other in prison (mother of Sabeel and Kafeel Ahmed, who plotted bombs in UK airports) can rise her voice ? In case if people like her do, will the rest of the community(including Hindus) back them?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @SKS,
    No longer very regular here; catching up on a lazy Sunday afternoon. Your response to Ali caught my eye.
    Quote:
    But, before I do so, I request you to have a look at my comments down below about ‘Innocence of Idolaters” and about that book called Reliances of the Traveller. I have asked these questions many times from Muslims, but the usual response is either about the evils of hindu caste system or guidance that I should adhere to Hindu scriptures like Vedas which preach monotheism with links Dr Nayak’s lectures.
    Now I do agree that caste /untouchability is a despicable practice (you can add stronger adjectives) and it is possible that Rig Veda or some other Veda actually prohibit IDOL worship, but I still love worshipping idols (I know I should be ashamed). So those resposnes might be correct but they are not answers to my question, will be grear if you can help.
    — Unquote —

    As a corollary, can I ask: Does Quran merely carry forward the Vedic tradition? Perhaps, just perhaps, it is the 5th Veda?
    Imagine the possibilities; if true, the above will achieve doctrinal unification of the “Vedists” with the Islamists; sadly idolators like yourself will be outside the pale. :-)

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish

    That is a tough one. Quran in a sense does carry forward the Vedic tradition (as per Dr Naik ) but it also claims to be the final and perfect version and its coming into effect means all the previous texts, rituals, practices whatever stand null and void!

    On the other hand our Arya Samaj guys insist that Idol worship is prohibited in Veda but Quran does not pass muster with them. There are some who have sending open challenges to Dr Naik for public debate but sadly it hasn’t worked.

    Would be great fun if it did happen, should be telecast live on TV channels, but you know those capitalists (upper caste hindus+zions+ imperials) are threatened so much with this prospect that they designed IPL and fooled all of us once agains.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    Diabolic, indeed!
    The extent to which these Brahmin – bania combination will go. I always thought the involvement of a certain Kashmiri brahmin from Dubai was an interesting sideshow to the Twattle between a South Indian brahmin (Gopi please note) and a north Indian bania which anyway is a sideshow of the Mahabharata of our times, namely IPL.
    Really; once you choose to see everything in terms of brahmin-bania worldview, the clarity it offers is tremendous. Thanks; I am truly enlightened.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Ashish for your information there used to be 360 gods in mecca and allah was one of them , though most important, he had three daughters , mannat , others I cannot recall. I would like to know flying 2500 miles to saudi arabia to circumbulate the black stone in kaba or throwing stones at the hill (stoning the devil) , how different is it from idol worship.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, being a bengali , you should know better. When a maharaja in some principality of Rajasthan asked swami Vivekanada , how can he justify idol worship, he asked the maharaja to bring his photo which was hanging on the wall . when he brought the picture he asked the maharaja to spit on it. Maharaja was completely taken aback , swamiji said why it is only a piece of paper and some black chemicals , it’s not you in person. Similarly when hindus worship idols they are conscious the idol itself is not god , but you need something to focus your mind otherwise your mind will wander around, the final proof is they submerge them in the rivers as you know(Bhasan).As for this moron Dr Nayak what can I say it reminds me of the Birinchi Baba in Ray’s film Kapurush O Mahapurush with all those incredulous claim he made , how he met Jesus and how he needs to wake the sun every morning. As much he tries to show the Quoran to a supra rational thesis, the fact is it is eighty percent unbeleivably mundane. Take this first verse of sura66, It was narrated by prophet to his wife shortly after two of them pressurised him into not visiting a favourite slave.”OProphet ! who do you forbid yourself which Allah has made lawful for you: you seek to please your wives and Allah is forgiving and merciful.I have come to my understanding of the genesis of the islamic relegion , I would be grateful if anybody please refute me in rational objective manner without any foul language. The business of prophethood and revelation is quite alien in pre prophet arabic religion. Now how did he get the idea, I think when he was sent to syria by his wife with caravan for businesss , he came in contact with christian and jewish religion . he must have been mesmerised by the sophistication by the then prevailing standards . Remember the jewish religion by that time had huge cannon of jewish religious laws, the MISNAH. Though it deals a hell of a lot of the time who can have sex with whom , like can uncle have sex with his sister’s daughter and all that. This is when he also came across the jewish dietary laws and customs. That is why you have pork forbidden and circumcision, in fact in earlier part of quoran you have suras exhorting to pray in the direction of jerusalem. This is also when he got the idea of monotheism , and that is what he wanted for his own people , and he choose Allah out of the three hundreed sixty gods because he was already the most important . The kaba with a block of stone was a common thing in arabia at that time, a bit like Kali Mandir, there several of them littered all across the desert , it was a common cultural/religious icon and the business of HAJ and Umraah existed long before prophet and he kept it intact because it was such a profoundly strong cultural/national icon for the arabs. Infact I think ythe concept of mosque and prayer may have something to do with jewish congregation and christian church. It is my speculation (I will be eternally thankful if some one enlightens me on this matter) that pre prophet arabic worship may have in small little cubicles not unlike small hindu mandirs.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain
  • Azhar Hussain

    The Tradition of Sati in India
    .

    by Dr. Jyotsna Kamat
    First Online: August 15,1997
    Page Last Updated: January 28,2010

    Sati (Su-thi , a.k.a. suttee) is the traditional Hindu practice of a widow immolating herself on her husband’s funeral pyre.

    “Sati” means a virtuous woman. A woman who dies burning herself on her husbands funeral fire was considered most virtuous, and was believed to directly go to heaven, redeeming all the forefathers rotting in hell, by this “meritorious” act. The woman who committed Sati was worshipped as a Goddess, and temples were built in her memory.

    Sati was prevalent among certain sects of the society in ancient India, who either took the vow or deemed it a great honor to die on the funeral pyres of their husbands. Ibn Batuta (1333 A.D.) has observed that Sati was considered praiseworthy by the Hindus, without however being obligatory. The Agni Purana declares that the woman who commits sahagamana goes to heaven. However, Medhatiti pronounced that Sati was like suicide and was against the Shastras, the Hindu code of conduct. It is believed that they were not coerced, although several wives committed Sati. The majority of the widows did not undergo Sati.

    Woman Commits Suicide on Funeral Pyre
    Illustration based on a Maha Sati Sculpture (Hero-stone)

    Maha-sati stones (hero-stones) were erected in memory of brave women who committed sati and are periodically worshipped. There are not many instances of remarriage of widows in Indian history and it is believed that women preferred death to the cursed life a widow (see: Origins of the Sati System).

    Many hero-stones claim that the wife has committed Sati out of tremendous love for husband, so they can be together after death, but these are not historically substantiated. One finds a large number of satis committed just after the war (like the Johar in Rajasthan (map – topics), when the women must have died to protect their honor from the invading enemies after their men perished in the battlefield.

    Indian leader Rajaram Mohan Roy, through his organization Brahmo Samaj was among the first who fought to eliminate Sati. The ritual of sati was banned by the British Government in 1829 (see a timeline of Sati). However, it took a large scale social reforms by Dayanand Saraswati(of Arya Samaj), Mahatma Gandhi and the like to actually stop the practice (see: Timeline of Sati). In the modern times, there was one instance of a Sati reported in Rajasthan (late 1980s), and another in Madhya Pradesh (in year 2002) that caused a lot of controversy and social turmoil.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    FLESH TRADE, BIGGEST INDUSTRY IN INDIA: STUDY

    Xinhua News Agency | November 10, 1998 | Copyright 2009 Xinhua News Agency. This material is published under license from the publisher through ProQuest Information and Learning Company, Ann Arbor, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to ProQuest Information and Learning Company. (Hide copyright information) Copyright

    Flesh trade is the biggest industry in India with a turnout of 400 billion rupees (approximately 10 billion U.S. dollars) annually, according to a latest study published on Tuesday.

    The Center of Concern for Child Labor (CCL), a non-governmental organization, said in the report that 30 percent of prostitutes are children below the age of 14.

    “We all have become silent spectators of such worst human right violations,” said M. N. Venkatachaliah, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission. The number of prostitutes in India, according to the study on “Child Prostitution in …

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Posted on April 25, 2008. Filed under: Crime,Hindutva | Tags: Hindu, Hindutva, India, Pedophile, Sex, Swami |

    AUSTIN — The founder of the Barsana Dham Hindu temple in Hays County has been arrested in Washington, D.C., and charged with 20 counts of indecency with a child.

    Prakashanand Saraswati was taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals Service on Thursday afternoon at Dulles Airport and was being held in Alexandria, Va., according to the Hays County sheriff’s office.

    “He’s waived extradition, and arrangements are being made to bring him back to Hays County,” sheriff’s office spokesman Leroy Opiela was quoted as saying in an Austin American-Statesman online report Friday.

    The charges stem from an investigation that began in August, sheriff’s officials said.

    According to his indictment, Saraswati, known as “Shree Swamiji” to his followers, is accused of groping two girls who were under age of 17 at the time on several occasions between 1993 and 1996.

    A spokesperson for Saraswati and his Barsana Dham temple did not immediately return a call Friday to The Associated Press.

    The Barsana Dham center is located in a rural part of Hays County on the outskirts of Austin. Society members have been living at the 200-acre ashram, or spiritual retreat center, since 1990, practicing Saraswati’s philosophy of “divine love consciousness” based on ancient texts common to Hinduism.

    The center’s Web site says Saraswati was born in 1929 in India and that he traveled the world before establishing the Hays County temple. It was designed as a representation of the holy land of Braj in India, according to the Web site.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    And Gay sex capital is NWFP, Pakistani punjab and afghanistan.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Hussain

    For all that might be true about that report, one thing for sure isn’t:
    10 billion US Dollar isn’t the size of India’s biggest industry if your parameter is TURNOUT or whatever that means in manadarin or arabic.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Tradition of female circumcision in Islam?????

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Azhar Hussain
    Do two wrongs make a right?

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    That was not my purpose…..its seems few individuals are to be blamed then lets punish them and not blame the whole population and religion…Child sex is prevalent in Thailand and all Europeans are going their for that…is Christainty to be blamed… for that matter Hindus…No

    But it seems Indians are in the habit of jumping up and down when it comes to Islam and Pakistan..show them the mirror and then they shut up… start talking about racism freedom of speech…bigotry blah blah blah

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Did Mohammad not rape 9 year old Ayesha? How is it diff. from child sex in Thailand?

    Even now Arab sheikhs are raping young pakistani boys and girls.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    “But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men’s lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection.” – - Dr Annie Besant (Dr Annie Besant in ‘The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,’ Madras, 1932)
    A noted British author has observed: “No great religious leader has been so maligned as Prophet Mohammed. Attacked in the past as a heretic, an impostor, or a sensualist, it is still possible to find him referred to as “the false prophet.” A modern German writer accuses Prophet Mohammed of sensuality, surrounding himself with young women. This man was not married until he was twenty-five years of age, then he and his wife lived in happiness and fidelity for twenty-four years, until her death when he was fourty-nine. Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet’s record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII.” Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World’s Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121)

    Every time the Muslims talk about Prophet Muhammad (saw) to the heretics, they use a point against the saintly character of Prophet(saw) by pointing fingers towards his marriage with a girl named Ayesha(ra), who was presumably, 12 years old at the time of her marriage to Prophet and another woman named Zainab, whom he married after she divorced a man named Zaid whom Prophet had adopted as his son. Muslims on the other hand are commanded to hold her in highest regards according to the will and decree of Allah(swt) as is evident from the verse above. Moreover, it’s a historical fact that A’ishah (ra) was one who possessed exceptional qualities, and Holy Prophet saw in her a great woman of the future who was best suited to perform the duties of a wife and of a teacher whose words and deeds had to be preserved for the guidance of mankind. A’ishah(ra) turned out to be one of the greatest woman scholars for Islam, thus setting an example for future generations of Muslim women. Aishah(ra) was said to be the most knowledgeable in Islam, even by the male companions of the Prophet’s times and was in fact one of the most learned amongst them. Companions had to come to her and seek the knowledge that only she knew that only she was privy to. Her significant example of being highly regarded especially among the men plays an important role in removing beyond a shadow of a doubt any uncertainties regarding women to be inferior to men in aspects of faith or false notions condemning women to be hindered from earning a high status in society, especially in terms of spiritual growth and morality. Compare this to the history of other major religions in which women were regarded to remain subordinate to men especially in terms of spiritual development. All his wives, especially A’ishah(ra), transmitted many scholarly works (sayings, deeds, and actions) from Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Aishah’s father, Abu Bakr, was a key figure in the history of Islam as well as a close friend and trusted advisor of Muhammad. The joining in marriage of Muhammad and Abu Bakr’s daughter solidified the relationship between him and the Prophet. When Muhammad(saw) died, there was a need for a new Muslim leader. Abu Bakr was chosen khalifah due to his close knit relationship with Muhammad and the marriage between Muhammad and his daughter, A’ishah.

    From the non-Muslim front, there is a terrible hypocritical approach to this whole affair of Prophet’s multiple marriages. It has been effectively proven by scholars that the age of Ayesha(ra) which is written in few Hadith books is contradictory and can be false. See, ‘How infallible are Sahih Hadiths?’ in this regard. Nowhere in Holy Qur’an, even a passing reference has been made to this aspect of Prophet’s wife. But, before I direct you that part of the scholarly study, let’s agree for argument’s sake, that the charges are true and you still want to hold this argument against ethics of Islam then try to have a look into your own backyard and let’s see, what other major religions talk about such marriage concepts.

    Ayesha(ra) was engaged to someone else before she got engaged to Muhammad(saw):
    Lady Ayesha(ra) was already engaged to a non-Muslim man named Jober Ibn Al-Moteam Ibn Oday. Back then, the people of Mecca did not object to Ayesha(ra)’s engagement to Jober because she was physically mature enough to be considered for marriage. Her parents saw that and they engaged her to Jober.

    The only reason why Ayesha (ra)’s father, Abu Baker Al Siddeek, broke her engagement with Jober is because he was a non-Muslim. Later, a woman named Kholeah Bint Hakeem suggested for Muhammad (saw) to marry Ayesha(ra), because Muhammad (saw) and Abu Baker became best friends. Muhammad (saw) engaged Ayesha(ra) for 2 years before he married her.

    Abû Bakr (ra) is also recorded to have spoken these words: “There are three things I cherish most: a look at your face, to spend my wealth on you and that my daughter is thy wife.”

    All Muslim scholars agree 100% that Muhammad(saw) and Aisha(ra) were engaged for 2 years before marriage.

    Prophet Muhammad(saw) was a Noble Messenger of God. Muhammad(saw) lived in a society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge what he or others did based on the standards we have set today. It is wrong and foolish to do so!.

    Another major (seemingly oldest) religion of the east, Hinduism, finds it’s roots in early marriages of the girls. Child marriage of daughters 5-6 years old was common due to the custom of dowry and to avoid scandals [Nand 17] [Basham 167-8] [Yadav 70] [Altekar 16] [Banerjee 70]. Hindu Law books prescribe that the best partner for a man in one-third his age. Thus a man 18 year old should marry a girl 6 years old! –

    “A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner.” [Manu IX.94]

    This was meant to prevent any scandals. Narada states that some of the defects to be avoided in brides are if they already had a relationship with another man or have their minds set on another, they should not be selected [Sheth 67].

    So, what we have to keep in mind is, not only was it a custom in the Arab society as well, to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the other olden world societies. Also, the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non-biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus (peace be upon him). Mary (may peace be upon her) had already been ‘betrothed’ to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man and Mary(ra) was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was ‘betrothed’ to Joseph. We, as Muslims, would never call Joseph a wrong doer, nor would we ever refer to the ‘Holy Ghost’ of the Bible, that ‘Impregnated’ Mary as a “Rapist” …and Allah Almighty knows best. Not to mention, the present day misguided Priests of the church, painting the world red with their escapades that involve countless crimes of ‘Pedophilia’ and Rapes’, where Susan Archibald, 37, a now retired Air Force officer who said a Catholic Air Force chaplain abused her starting in the 1980’s, when she was an 18-year-old cadet at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. He was 38. In her testimony she said that, “When my chaplain first began to abuse me, he told me that God had sent me to him as a gift.” A gift to use and throw.

    I hope the response above would have cleared some of the doubts in the minds of the sick who act as self-appointed judges on self made citadels on the issues of criticizing other religions except their own. However, those who are interested in scholarly studies and wish to distill truth from falsehood based on some logical and historical facts, please hit the given link below:

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Azhar
    “Prophet Muhammad(saw) was a Noble Messenger of God. Muhammad(saw) lived in a society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge what he or others did based on the standards we have set today. It is wrong and foolish to do so!’

    Very well, but then How many Muslims do not consider him to be the role model ? How many Muslims don’t want to copy him? Just check the fatwa sites and u will find people asking how did prophet comb his hair and cut his nails so that they can emulate him

    “Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet’s record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII.” Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World’s Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121)”

    Again the problem isn’t what the Head of church of England, Prophet or Manu did, the problem is those people who want to continue doing so even today and assert that this is the Glorious Way.

    Moreover, there are equally plausible arguments about why he did he not marry again till his fist wife died and those arguments don’t make this act look so pious. Remember, his first wife was an influential and wealthy woman.

    Your approach is very nice, you first write (almost) Prophet never did much wrong and in the end advise us to not use today’s standard in judging him? Why ? Now Since, you have written so much, may I give a link (just one) to a Hadith about took Safiya bint Huyai:
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/008.sbt.html

    Second those who bring up Ayesha, don’t make her 12 years old. It is 6 yrs when married 9 years for consummation.

    But let me repeat the problem is simply not what and who did what some 1000 or 100 years ago, the problem is if you want those acts to be basis of modern law.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Cannot get away from the fact that he had TEN wives, doesn’t inspire much confidence in spiritual matters to me. Also Ayesha was his bosom friend’s DAUGHTER. One of his wives was a jewess. Having overwhelmed that jewish tribe who tried to put up a fight , all the men folks were killed and prophet asked his soldiers to distribuite the women folks. Words reached him that the jeweess was something special and not wothy of his subordinates. Prophet quickly asked his lieutnant to leave her and to be fair prophet did marry her . Then again this is not Gautam Buddha who foresake his kingdom or beautiful life and wife for spirituality. And how many wars did prophet fight and how many did Jesus, Budha or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu(Hare krishna Society) fight. Leave it your intelligence to draw inference.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    How about Safiyah ?
    Her husband and brother were killed and the same day Mohd marries and sleep with her.

    this is nothing other than rape.

    Maybe when his rich wife was alive, he was sneaking around.
    he had to do it, as he was lusting for wealth.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Azhar Mia, what you dont get despit living in India if you are fro india is that hindus dont give a toss about manu, hindu marriage act prohibits marriage before seventeen unlike the muslims who have “Muslim personal law ” based on hadith and sunnas. And how mind bogglingly hypocrites you are , when it comes to Ayesha’s age you are happy to site inconsitency and thus unreliable , but cannot consider the whole hadith as a total fabrication as it was written by bukhari eight hundreed(yes you have read it correct , eight hundreed) years after death of prophet from hearsay(again you have read it correct it was only hearsay)

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Azhar Hussain,
    ………it’s a historical fact that A’ishah (ra) was one who possessed exceptional qualities, and Holy Prophet saw in her a great woman of the future …..
    As you will be very well aware, after Mohammads death, Aisha led an army against Ali (Prophet Mohammads cousin) in the battleof the Camel (Jung e jamal), the first battle of muslims against muslims. 10,000 muslims were reported killed and this battle really created the schism between shias and sunnis which continues till this day. How is that for “a great woman of the future”

    I would not like to get into a long debate on aishas age at marriage (which I can easily do) as i do not believe in pasting and writing long posts. Suffice to say that in countries like saudi arabia, which impose shaira on their citizens as far as possible, girls can get married off at 9 years of age, which follows directly from the actions of Mohammad (sunnat e rasool). So, if I so wish I can marry a 9 year old girl even if I am 80 years old (such a case has happened recently in saudi arabia). Hence paedophilia has been legalised in Islam. In India while such marriages do occur, as per the laws of the country this is a serious crime and this evil (alongwith child prostitution etc,) will be stamped out as the might of the State is against it..

    The same cannot be said for Islam which legalises it – as you cannot change Islamic laws laid out 1400 years back.

    Incidentally are you aware of the minimum marriageable age for girls as per the quran?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Syed,
    Is it necessary?
    Theological debates do not work with believers; especially when the belief is in a system which is “compleat”… in the sense that it offers solutions to all aspects of life.
    Having said that, I say this to Azhar Hussain,
    Yes, Hinduism, Christianity.. they all have things you can question; whether you are a believer or not. You can also pretty much ignore the religion you are born in and yet, call yourself a Hindu or Christian.
    Does Quran have guidance for everything that you want to do in life? What about something as simple as learning how to ride a bike or learning to swim? I am not even bringing in things like derivatives trading or traveling to outer space. My question is: is the absence of guidance in some spheres “liberating” or “restrictive”? How will you be guided?
    What if Quran enjoins you to do something, which, to put it mildly, is against the law? Like hastening the departure for Jahannum for your fellow human beings so that you can go to Jannat? What should a good Muslim do if the laws of the land are stopping him from being a good Muslim?
    A side note: LTTE leader V Prabhakaran was born a Hindu, has been described as a “lapsed methodist” and LTTE has never invoked the Hindu religion to justify their dastardly acts. You might want to visit this link to see their assassination targets: mostly Hindus.
    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/shrilanka/database/leaders_assassinated_byLTTE.htm

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish
    Puhlease don’t spoil the fun.

    It is rare to get believers like Azhar on this blog and rare for them to stay on.

    Men like Syed, Shoeb and Mirza would have turned this site into DD’s ‘Krishi Darshan’, but for ZIA’s hard work and faith. (Apologies to Mr Syed, Mirza and Shoeb you guys are no fun)

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    sorry; I promise to behave henceforth..

    shan Reply:

    @Ashish, sorry mate cannot agree,”theological debate do not work with beleivers”. It must have been done with your and mine forefathers otherwise we would not be where we are . The problem is there is TOTAL ABSENCE OF DEBATES, particularly debate amongst the coreligionist and also to look at other culture, thoughts those are post islamic.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain,

    To elaborate, what I mean is that as countries have laws against pedophilia and child marriage its just an issue of time before such practices are stopped – say 10, 20, 50 or 100 years- take your pick.

    However as these practices are hard coded in Islam they will remain unchanged in the foreseeable future (as they have remained unchanged in the last 1400 years), unless something very radical happens.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Syed with your arguments I do understand were you are headed, same old story of Sunni and Shia. But this is not place for use to discussion. As far Saudi Laws concerned I am sure about it, but I like to bring in Iran (The Great Islamic Republic) but I am going to reframe

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @ Azhar Hussain Sahab,
    Well, I do not have anything going for both shias and sunnis. The reference was just in passing to make a point.
    As regards Iran (The Great Islamic Republic), just to help you, I would like to point out that the minimum legal age for marriage there is 14 years for boys and, guess what – 9 years for girls. I wonder why.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Marriage age here in the States is 18yrs…..But kids start practicing at the age of 11….Overview
    The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world. The Center for Disease control says that one-third of girls get pregnant before the age of 20. Teenpregnancy.org, a site managed by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, states that there are “750,000 teen pregnancies annually. Eight in ten of these pregnancies are unintended and 81 percent are to unmarried teens.”

    Educating teenagers about contraception makes them more likely to use contraception when they begin having sex, but it doesn’t lower the age at first intercourse. Why? Probably because the decision where and with whom to become sexually active is a very complicated one, and may be rooted in family, peers, religion, the media and individual personality factors.
    National levels and trends
    • In 2006, 750,000 women younger than 20 became pregnant. The pregnancy rate was 71.5
    pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15–19, and pregnancies occurred among about 7% of women
    in this age-group.
    • In 2005, the U.S. teenage pregnancy rate reached its lowest point in more than 30 years (69.5),
    down 41% since its peak in 1990 (116.9). However, in 2006, the rate increased for the first time
    in more than a decade, rising 3%.
    • The pregnancy rate among sexually experienced teenagers (those who had ever had
    intercourse) was 152.8 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15–19, reflecting the fact that the
    overall teenage pregnancy rate includes a substantial proportion of young people who are not
    sexually active. The pregnancy rate among sexually experienced teenagers also increased for the
    first time in over a decade, rising 3% from 2005 to 2006.
    • The teenage birthrate in 2006 was 41.9 births per 1,000 women. This was 32% lower than the
    peak rate of 61.8, reached in 1991, but 4% higher than in 2005.
    • The 2006 teenage abortion rate was 19.3 abortions per 1,000 women. This figure was 56%
    lower than its peak in 1988, but 1% higher than the 2005 rate.
    • From 1986 to 2006, the proportion of teenage pregnancies ending in abortion declined almost
    one-third, from 46% to 32% of pregnancies among 15–19-year-olds.
    National levels by race and ethnicity
    • Among black women aged 15–19, the nationwide pregnancy rate fell by 45% (from 223.8 per
    1,000 to 122.7) between 1990 and 2005, before increasing to 126.3 in 2006.
    • Among non-Hispanic white teenagers, the pregnancy rate declined 50% in the same period
    (from 86.6 per 1,000 to 43.3), before increasing to 44.0 in 2006.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    Though a ten year old having sex with nine year old ,is world apart from a scenario sixty year old having sex with thirteen year old, yet in all non muslim world this is punishable by law , as age of consent is seventeen.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    You non-Muslims should be the last ones preaching Muslims about morality. We are glade your daughters, sisters are also aping the west in this regards.

    SEXUAL ACTIVITY
    •Nearly half (46%) of all 15–19-year-olds in the United States have had sex at least once.[1]

    •By age 15, only 13% of never-married teens have ever had sex. However, by the time they reach age 19, seven in 10 never-married teens have engaged in sexual intercourse.[1]

    •Most young people have sex for the first time at about age 17, but they do not marry until their middle or late 20s. This means that young adults are at risk of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections (STIs) for nearly a decade.[2]

    •Teens are waiting longer to have sex than they did in the past. Some 13% of never-married females and 15% of never-married males aged 15–19 in 2002 had had sex before age 15, compared with 19% and 21%, respectively, in 1995.[1]

    •The majority (59%) of sexually experienced teen females had a first sexual partner who was 1–3 years their senior. Only 8% had first partners who were six or more years older.[1]

    •More than three-quarters of teen females report that their first sexual experience was with a steady boyfriend, a fiancé, a husband or a cohabiting partner.[1]

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain Sahib,

    We have one thing in common – both of us have left our home country for more developed ones. However there is also one major difference – While I respect the culture of my new country you have contempt for it. Is this not like biting the hand that feeds you? Maybe you were forced by the US to come! If so you should take the first flight home asap.

    Coming back to the post, you have very conveniently sidestepped the original discussion and opened a new one. I wonder why.

    Reg. the discussion on sexual morality, do you know exactly what it means? If you can manage to have a world view you will realise that it has different connotations in different cultures/religions. In Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, if a woman happens to show an arm she is branded immoral while it is very different in most of the rest of the world – So judging a different culture by benchmarking yours as perfect makes no sense.

    Now coming to the purity of your culture, would you mind telling me about misyar and muta. Is this is not prostitution made legal? Would you like your daughter or sister to have misyar/muta with someone? Do you know that in the largest redlight area of Bangkok (Sukhmavit road) there are such a huge number of male tourists from the gulf that there is an entire street catering only to arabs for their halal food, lodging etc. – all signs in Arabic, the shopkeepers know arabic. Do you know that in Karachi alone 100 women are raped every day as reported by Additional Police Surgeon Dr Zulfiqar Siyal. If you are slightly feminine in appearance there is a 90% chance that the taxi driver in Saudi Arabia will make a pass at you as experienced by one gay friend of mine. I can give you a 100 more examples if you so want.

    In your culture, everything “immoral” that you have reported for the US happens – and much much more. The ONLY difference is that it is all hushed up and brushed under the carpet. So please set your own house in order before you turn up your nose at others!

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @syed

    Most likely, he will revert saying muta is a shia problem .
    But important point is this: Leaving voices like yours (and a Mirza, Shoeb etc.), most of the Muslims (that includes Zia) commenting here are absolutely convinced that the problem is on the other side. Either we should open our eyes, read more about Islam, turn broad minded, remove prejudices and of course the moral and cultural decadence.

    That is really well Begun

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @SKS Mumbai,
    Well, muta is for shias what misyar is for sunnis. Only some procedural differences.

    I think there are quite a lot of muslims who think like me and want to get on with their lives. However they are playing smart and dont speak out- As one non beliving fellow told me – what if i am wrong- then i will be in jehannum.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @syed

    so there are people who don’t believe this but don’t say so because of fear of Jehannum?

    so, in their opinion God will not be angry if you don’t believe, but will be very angry if you said so?

    ram Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain- he is “glade”, not glad! Nut case!
    He says that half of U.S. population 15-19 yr. of age has had sex. Agreed. But these U.S. girls are still not qualified enough to be ‘respectable wives of respectable Muhammad’! They will have to start at 9 yrs. of age and that too with a 54 yr. old ****** to earn equivalent moral status! Now I know, it’s kinda hard to match up to Islam!

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SKS,
    Ok, I will try to give an example–

    Can an average Indian eat, say a cooked snake or squid rings (which his reason tells him is absolutely OK to eat)? Something which the average chinese can eat without giving a second thought. He cannot because he has been bought up in a certain way and conditioned since childhood that such food is dirty or bad. This is something that has been literally hard-coded into him and extremely few individuals can break out of that mindset however much they try!

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @SKS,
    ……so, in their opinion God will not be angry if you don’t believe, but will be very angry if you said so?…….

    They do not believe in God or Islam but they prefer to keep their beliefs to themselves. However their beliefs are betrayed in their lifestyles such as never praying etc.

    HAving said that, there are also degrees of sin in Islam. So a person who does not have have personal faith and keeps it to himself is not considered as great a sinner as one who directly attacks the religion and its prophet & for him there is an unending Jehannum.

    So the way they think – I am having a good time and living my life the way I want, why should I risk it and speak out against my religion…..maybe just maybe I might be wrong, then I’ve had it after death!

    Slightly confusing, but try reading both posts together.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    smearing cow dung on the newborn’s umbilicus use to be a practice amongst hindus , caused neonatal teatnus, it is now being eradicated by education, lot of other superstition, Dietary habits(the one that you describe is a reflection of utter poverty) can be readicated by force of law (denying holocaust (WILL) land you in jail. Just because it is tradition habit doesn’t mean as a society or individual should accept it.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    @syed, what you say about eating practice is not beleif but eating habit which grew out of neccesity. Indians do enjoy now chinese noodleand pasta and pizza which is a radical departure from chawal and dal, and though my surname bequeathed to me is hindu through and through, earlier childhood and my father pretty much mainstream hindu , I have had no problem enjoying BEEF and PORK to my heart’s delight.

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    why you guys have gone silent suddenly,you guys are extremely articulate,and guys like Azhar hussain only expose themself,and i bet he will never surface.i know of lot s of muslims who take full advantage of liberal democracy of u.s and u.k. and remain a country within a country,ie.a mochers and will never dare to go and live from the miserable place they came from,but I find many hindu’s too like that but not this many,I will concede.Sex is a tabbo,in middle-east and to some extent india too,but due to open mind which hinduism inculcate in young hindu mind,they overcome it more redily.that’s all.the concept of hell is very powerful in islam and lesser degree christanity,fear is the means to anend in islam,thank your stars you do not have the milestone of fear and islam on your neck,for that sometime i feel empathy for them,really ,you shold too,but I like all of you,for your deep knowledge,by the way I’m 70 and came here during jfk presedency,so I was the first benifeciary of the magnanemity of this great nation,home of the brave,and land of the free.atleast you are not “gaddars”fair well,my friends

    [Reply]

    h mani Reply:

    I WANT ADD TO WHAT I HAD EARLIER I HAD SAID.EVERY ONE HAS EVERY RT TO PRACTICE ANY RELIGION OR NO RELIGION AT ALL.EACH TO HIS/HER OWN,HAVING SAID THAT,I HAVE COME TO THIS CONCLUSION,THEREIS NO GOD,ATLEAST THE THE WAY OUR MATIRIAL MIND IS CAPABLE OF IT,IN CONVENTIONAL SENSE,IF THERE IS GRAND PURPOSE FOR THE UNIVERSE WE SURELY DO NOT KNOW,UNDERSTANDING IT.GOD,SO CALLED,AT VARIOUS TIME HAS PRON0UNCED VARIOUS TIMES SELF CONTRIDICTORY MESSAGES,EITHER HE WAS WRONG OR HIS MESSENGERS GOT IT WRONG,IN EITHER CASE HE FAILED.I’M NOT GONE FALL FOR HINDUISM,WHICH SAYS IT IS OLDEST AND GOD TALKED TO THEM FIRST.I WILL IGNORE THEM AND GO TO THE 3 SEMITIC THOUGHTS COMING FROM MIDDLE-EAST.FIRST JEWS WERE CHOSEN PEOPLE,AFTER SREWING THEM GOOD INCLUDING BANISHMENT TO BABYLON,(HEAVEN KNOWS THEY HAVE UNFAILING WORSHIPED HIM,YET WERE DRIVEN FROM PILLER TO POST,INCLUDING HITLER’S OWENS,AND EVEN TODAY BUT FORU.S,THEY WOULD BE SWIMMING IN DEAD SEA,ALLDEAD LIKE DEAD FISH,NEITHER HERE OR NOR THERE.2)JESUS,NOT WITHSTANDING HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,LET HIM DOWN ,HAD HIM MEET DEATH SO CRUELY,EVEN THE ,HE WHEN HE FINALLY CAME TO HIS SENSES,AND WHEN ANGELS APPERARED TO RESCUEHIM,FINALLYSAID”oh! MY FATHER IN HEAVEN WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!”SO FAR SO GOOD,I’M STAYING TRUE TO BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTMENT.NOW QURON AND HIS LAST MESSENGERS,THINGS HAVE NOT TURNED OUT VERY GOOD FOR HIS FINAL TRY TO GET IT RIGHT.THEY ARE BOMBED AND HOUDED BY THE SATAN(IRAN,NEVER TIRES OF CALLING ,SCREMING TO MORE PRESISE,DEATH TO AMERICA,),AMERICANS SEEM TO BE DOING ALL RIGHT BOMBING THE THE COUNTRY OF THE PURE(PAKISTAN),AND PAKISTAN BENDING OVER BACKWORD TO OBLIGE THE UNCLE SAM.NOW,EITHER GOD IS ABLE OR WILLING TO STOP THIS TERRIBLE PUNISHMENT TO THE “BELIEVERS’ OR HE IS NO GOD AT ALL.(I HAVE NOT USED THE ANOTHER NAME FOR HIM-ALLAH,AS I DO NOT INTEND TO OFFEND THE BELIEVERS.ALLAH CAN DO EVERYTHING,IT IS GOD WHO IS NOT PERFORMING WELL..NOW COMMONSENSE TELLS YOU,ALL ALLAH HAS TO BRING ABOUT RULE OF ISLAM IN THE WHOLE WORLD JUST FEW THINGS(1)TURN ALL TV ON IN THE WORLD,SPECIALLY,TURN ALL ,IN WORLD AT AN APPOINTED HOUR AFTER ADEQUATE NOTICE IN ALL NEWS PAPER(nyt),FOX NEWS VILLIAN OF THE PIECE,LIBERAL NBC,ANDABC,CBS IN THAT ORDER AND ANNOUNCE,NO ELETRICITY,SO NO BASEBALL,FOOTBALLOR BASKETBALL,AND FOR GOOD MEASURE ON THE DAY WORLD SERIS OR SUPER BOWL,THIS WILL SURELY TEACH THE ARROGENT YANKS A LESSON,THEY LIVE WITHOUT BURGERS AND EVEN SEX,BALL GAME OH! NO,AND TELL THEM AS HE TOLD 3200 YEARS AGO TO PHEARO,EGYPT,MORE BAD THINGS TO FOLLOW,IF THEY DON’T THROW AWAY THEIR FEDRA,BASEBALL CAPS AND DON SKULL CAP,AS A CONCESSION ALLOW THEM THE CHOICE OF COLOR AS YANKS LIKE COLORFUL CHIOCESES.SEE IN AN A MINUTE U.S. WILL BE ISLAMIC COUNTRY,IF YANKS FALL,JEWS,HINDUSAND PASSIVE BUDDHIST ARE TOASTOR PIECE OF CAKES,NOW TELL ME HOW DIFFICULT THIS FOR ALL POWERFUL ALLAH,WHY TORMENT THE BELIEVERS,A THOUSAND YEARS TO SLOWLY CONVERT THE ARROGENT YANKS AND THE RECALISREENT HINDUS WHO HAVE BEEN STEAD FASTLY STANDING IN HOT SUN IN TRIPATHY,A BOLT OF LIGHTENING TO WILL FLATEN THE TEMPLE,WILL SAVE THE BELIEVERS THE TROUBLE OF FLATENING LATER,HE CAN KILL 2 BIRDS WITH ONE LIGHTENING.I KNOW I WILL BE WAITING FOR THIS MIRACLE TILL THE COWS COME HOME OR HELL FREEZE OVER ,TAKE YOUR PICK,NOT HAPPENING,SO I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD,HE ALLOWS THE IDOL WORSHIPERS AND SEX ADDICT U.S,AND THOSE BAD BAD JEWS TO FLARISH,SO WHAT KIND OF ALLAH THIS SIMPLE FOLKS ISLAMIST HAVE PUT FAITH IN.

    [Reply]

    nahid Reply:

    let’s see what the Intelligent people of this world say about Quran and Muhammad(PBUH).

    comments from top scientists.

    Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

    “In a relatively few ayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”

    **********************************************

    Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

    “I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.”
    And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”

    ***********************************************

    Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 180 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books – and presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

    “…Muhammad .. could not read, didn’t know to write. – You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements – amazingly accurate about scientific nature. [so] many accuracies – I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”

    **********************************************

    Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

    [Summary] “The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”

    Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”

    ******************************************************

    Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world’s most famous geologists. He is a Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. Professor Alfred said:

    “Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a Bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case.”

    He also said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here.”

    ************************************************

    Keith L. Moore is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy (department of surgery), former Chair of anatomy and associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences (Faculty of Medicine) at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He has also worked at the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He is most known for his textbooks on the subjects of anatomy and human embryology.

    “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah”.

    ***************************************************

    Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad:

    [In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...]

    [If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....]

    He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

    “It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

    *********************************************

    Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

    “I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”

    *********************************************

    Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

    “During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran…. From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference…. I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.”

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    WHATi WROTE IS NOT FUNNY,I HAVE BEEN PODERING OVER THE StRENGE WAY THIS ALLAH OR GOD FUNCTION,HE HAS SO MANY OPTIONS YET HE DOES NOTHING TO HELP THE 5 TIMES NAMAZI A BREAK,THEY HAVE BEEN FONDLY WAITING FOR HIS MERCY AND TO RULE THE WORLD,IT WILL BE FUNNY TO WATCH YANKS PLAYING BASBALL AND FOOTBALL DONNING SKULL CAP,I WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN HOT HELL JUST TO SEE THAT WONDERFUL SIGHT,A.ROD IN SKULL CAP AND IN NEW YANKEE STADIUM.THE ENGLISH WITH THEIR FUNNY ACCENT SOUNDS FUNNY,WAIT TILL THEY PREY IN ARABIC.CAN NOT WAIT ANY LONGER,FOR ISLAMIC ,ONE WORLD.

    [Reply]

  • nahid

    @ h mani
    let’s see what the Intelligent people of this world say about Quran and Muhammad(PBUH).

    Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

    “In a relatively few ayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”

    **********************************************

    Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

    “I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.”
    And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”

    ***********************************************

    Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 180 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books – and presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

    “…Muhammad .. could not read, didn’t know to write. – You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements – amazingly accurate about scientific nature. [so] many accuracies – I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”

    **********************************************

    Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

    [Summary] “The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”

    Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”

    ******************************************************

    Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world’s most famous geologists. He is a Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. Professor Alfred said:

    “Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a Bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case.”

    He also said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here.”

    ************************************************

    Keith L. Moore is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy (department of surgery), former Chair of anatomy and associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences (Faculty of Medicine) at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He has also worked at the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He is most known for his textbooks on the subjects of anatomy and human embryology.

    “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah”.

    ***************************************************

    Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad:

    [In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...]

    [If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....]

    He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

    “It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

    *********************************************

    Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

    “I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”

    *********************************************

    Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

    “During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran…. From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference…. I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.”

    [Reply]

  • shan

    Hindu scriptures describe how Bramha created another individual from the skin of his umbilicus, this can be construed to mean stem cell biolgy. But Hindus dont accept this as such and take it as nice story , Islam dont as evidenced by your pathetic attempt to cling on to those rather gullible explanations, no womder muslims are so laggard and backward.

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    MR NAHID,YOU HAVE TAKEN SO MUCH TROUBLE TO COLLECT SO MANY EMMINENT FOLKS TO SING SO MUCH WELL DESERVED PRAISE FOR KURAN AND MOHAMMAD(pbuh).I NEVER HAVE DOUBTED,THEIR MERITS,WHAT I WAS SAYING WHEN WILL ISLAM RULE MUCH OF SATAN U.S.A.,MUCH LESS THE WHOLE WORLD,I DO NOT HAVE CENTURY AT MY DISPOSAL,I’M ONLY A MERE MORTAL..PLEASE LET ME HAVE SOME GOOD NEWS IF ALLAH HAS COMMUNICATED GOOD TIDYING TO YOU,LET ME REJOICE AND DIE IN PEACE IN THE GREAT HOPE THAT ALLAH’S MERCY SHALL BEFALL ON US,POOR YANKEES.COULD YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW INSTEAD SOME MORE LEARNED MEN WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ISLAM?.I ALREADY KNOW HOW PEACE LOVING ISLAM IS.THANKS IN ANTICIPATION.PEACE.

    [Reply]

  • john Donne

    Having come across this blog, and learnt something here is my comment; as a visitor signs his name in the visitors book, after visiting a place.
    Among a few things I’ve learnt, one is not to debate on religion and politics. Why?
    It saves precious time which I can use doing things worthwhile; it enables keeping relationship cordial. And I can never convert others to my point of view by words, unless it is backed by deeds. There are some topics on which it is better to agree to disagree, when one cannot compromise.
    To conclude let me add a quote:
    Say O disbelievers, I worship not that which ye worship;
    Nor worship ye that which I worship.
    And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
    Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

    [Reply]

    shan Reply:

    haven’t you come across the route to progress is thesis, antithesis and then synthesis as formulated by Emanuel Kant, the eminent german philosopher.

    [Reply]

    nahid Reply:

    Ayisha razi allahu ta’ala anha used to communicate to the people from behind the curtain. And girls in islam cannot be married against their will. the marriage is considered void. Also, Prophet Muhammad was the best to his wives- so they all wanted him to be around and they all have spoken beautiful things about him in several hadiths. Also his wives were given a choice in the quranic verse which says SAY O MUHAMMAD TO YOUR WIVES THAT IF YOU CHOOSE THE WORLDY RICHES AGAINST AKHIRA AND THE PROPHET, I WILL LEAVE YOU NICELY AND FULFILL YOUR WISH.
    BUT THE WIVES CHOSE THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD SALLAHO ALAIHI WASALLAM. IN ISLAM YOU HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR WIVES NICELY WITHOUT ANY MALIGNING AND HARD BEHAVIOUR IF THERE IS A NEED FOR DIVORCE BUT ALLAH SAYS TO AVOID A DIVORCE IS BETETR RECONCILIATION IS BETTER. Ayisha herself is the witness of revelations- she says i saw prophet MuhAmmad receiveng revelations of Quran, she said once while receiving it his forehead was sweating in a very very cold night. ALSO THE 9 YR OLD AYISHA LOVED THE PROPHET SO MUCH AND USUALLY DO YOU THINK IT SI ACOORECT TO TREM THIS LOVE AS A CRIMINAL ACT THAT U MENTION. NAUZULBILLAH.
    tHE QURAISH APPROCHED THE PROPHET AND OFFERED HIM – IF YOU WANT THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN WE WILL PRESENT TO YOU THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN FOR YOU AND IF YOU WANT TO BECUM THE CHIEF WE WILL AMKE YOU OUR CHEIF , IF YOU WANT BIG PALACE WEALTH WE WILL GIVE YOU THAT BUT YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP THE CALL TO ISLAM- tHIS WAS SAID IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS CHACHA-HIS SUPPORTER WHO DIDNT SAY THE SHAHADAH AND CONVERTED TO ISLAM. sO THE PROPHET mUHAMMAD SALLAHO ALAIHI WASALLAM SAID- IF YOU KEEP THE SUN IN MY ONE HAND OR THE MOON IN ANOTER HAND- I WOULD STILL NOT STOP INVITING PEOPLE TOWARDS THE TRUTH AND HE BURST INTO TEARS. BECAUSE HE HAD LOVE FOR EVEN TEH PEOPLE WHO DNT ACCEPT ISLAM. tHEN THE CHIEFS LEFT UNHAPPY AND THE CHACHA ABU TALIB TOLD HIM YOU INVITE PPL TOWARDS ISLAM IA MA WITH YOU UNTIL MY LAST BREATH. BUT HE BELIEVED IN MUHAMMAD AND ALLAH BUT HE DIDNT SAY THE SHAHDA TO KEEP HIS ANCESTRAL PRIDE INTACT.
    THE MEANING OF KEEPING THE SUN IN ONE HAND IS – IF YOU GIVE ME AS MUCH AS HARDSHIPS YOU WANT AS SEVER AS THE HEAT OF SUN AS NOBODY WOULD LIKE TO BE CLOSE TO TEH SUN AS IT WOULD BURN YOU. oR THE MOON WHICH GIVES COOLNES- AS MUCH AS PLEASURE YOU WANT TO GIVE. HE STILL WILL NOT ACCEPT THE PAGAN WAYS WHICH WERE INFANTICIDE, IDOL WORSHIP, THEY USED TO GO AROUND THE KA’BA NAKES, THEY TREATED WOMEN BADLY.ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGIOMN THAT GVES WOMEN RIGHT IN PROPERTY, DIGNITY EVERYTHING. OUR PROPHET IS VERY NICE. DONT SAY SUCH HUMILIATING THINGS ABOUT HIM. ITS SO WRONG U R HIS UMMAH. HE SACRIFICED SO MUCH. HE HAD THE WORLDY RICHES WITH HIM AND HE GAVE IT UP IN CHARITY . HE COULD HAVE BUILD PALACES BUT HE DIDNT DO SO. Y R U AFTER THIS MA’ SOOM PROPHET. U DONT KNOW ABOUT HIS LIFE. IM IN TEARS. DONT SAY THIS.

    Also, Muhammad sallaho alaihi wasallam had to bear severe hardships for bringing islam into existence. There was a jew old lady who sued to throw The way of the Prophet Muhammad SAW was to treat the non-Muslims with kindness, love and mercy. Time and time again he did it. Prophet Muhammad SAW treated with respect a particular elderly non-muslim woman in Makkah. Everyday, before the Prophet SAW left his house to go to the Kabah, this elderly woman would throw trash in front of the path of the Prophet SAW out of disrespect and because she didn’t like the message that the Prophet SAW was preaching. One day, the Prophet SAW was leaving his house and he didn’t notice any garbage in his path and so he thought that maybe the old lady was sick, and that is why she was unable to throw her garbage this particular day, and so he went and visited her.

    When this elderly lady first saw the Prophet SAW, she was scared, because she knew what she had been doing. She asked why he had come. The Prophet SAW responded by saying that he knew that everyday she would throw garbage in his path, and today he didn’t find any garbage in his path, so he thought she might’ve been sick and that’s why he came to visit her. This response of the Prophet SAW softened the heart of this non-muslim lady and she was convinced that the Prophet SAW is truly a messenger of Allah, and she uttered the shahadah.
    She told him that these jews had told me to do so and i listened to them but none of them came to visit me when i am down with illness.

    http://rupeenews.com/about/muhammad-in-the-christian-context-concentrating-on-the-commonalities-between-the-abrahamic-faiths-the-arian-influences-on-islam-the-muslim-influences-on-martin-luther-locke-and-jefferson/

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Very easy; give away whatever you & your son have looted.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Bang on target. I have always been of the view that property price in India are artificially high. It is due to entry of politicians and underworld in real estate market. These two kinds of people are more interest in profits that are 200% or more and because of these SOBs, other real estate developer too are jacking up the prices…

    Loot lo India…

    [Reply]

  • geekay

    I would have thought that after the exchange with the other people and me who commented on your blog, you must have rethought about the black money and circle rates. The best course would have been to react to other peoples’ comments if you wanted to entrench on to your existing beliefs or you should have come out with a new blog onto the same topic sooner or later.
    The fact that if any govt wants to issue any circle rates it means they are immediately telling people to use and create black money in properties. Surprisingly, you have never thought of running any campaign to force the govt for land and property reforms. If they abolish circle rates and reduce stamp duty then all black money will disappear provided all transactions take place via banks. Since everybody is used to circle rates, so abolishing them will require a very big will power on the part of govt, I think any rise in the circle rates must get linked with stamp duty reduction
    at the same time and gradually they will reach at the right level where circle rates won’t be needed any more and dropped by govt.

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  • પાટનગર ગાંધીનગર

    I am thinking that central govt should bring some uniform legislation across India but stamp duty can be decided by state.

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  • Anonymous

    Hi

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  • Anonymous

    We need Patriotic & decisive leaders like Narendra Modi to keep the country on track of progress. Nominees like MMS & Mukharjee have doomed the nation. There is sole aim of grabbing power & looting the country. The Janlokpal would have gone a long way in bringing accountability in the system.

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  • Kumars1

    The aid should be rejected. And India should adopt a ‘buy British last’ policy as Malaysia did which soon focused minds in the British press. We are a poor country and admit it. Our security is paramount. We have got ‘neighbours from hell’. India should also stop issuing visas to journalists who rush to India and mock our poverty. Needless to say some blame can be laid at Britain’s door. We do not invade and bomb other countries eg. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Bosnia, etc. We are fed up of all this humbug!

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  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Suman-Mukherjee/744925892 Suman Mukherjee

    Very well written. Indeed, the latest trend of hysteric & sensationalized reporting in Indian media is worrying at best, sickening & irritating at worst. But personally, though I am not in a position to opine on the declining quality & standards of journalism in India, I am confident to attribute at least a part of the blame to the new found confidence of Indian Middle class on all matters concerning them including what they want to see, read & hear in the media. Today’s journalists are only left to catering to that at their own expense, can we really blame them for not doing something they are not allowed by their seniors to do?

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  • Gyan

    Indian journalists are the lowest paid in the world. Please pay them well, provide food and education, most importantly teach proper English and then recruit
    as reported for Newspaper.

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  • Abu Ahmed

    As a matter of fact, a constant watch on what and how is being reported in the print and elctronic media is very much needed. Inefficiency, callousness and negligence have become norm rather than exception with Indian journalism.

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  • Prasad Mantrala

    Very well said Mr. Sarkar. I am the Press & Media Secretary of United Kingdom Telugu Association (UKTA) who rushed to the hospital upon hearing the stabbing news of Mr Reddy. While I have repeatedly warned the media not to cook up stories, the fact that there was a lady among the 11 arrested became another loose end for the love triangle conclusion. We sincerely appeal to all media representatives to approach a reliable source such as Minister for Press & Information of High Commission of India or an association like us who are willing to help Indians in distress instead of probing the case from different angles and trying to tread on the Police’s toes!

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  • Chris

    Fair comments, but the media’s audience is not only the government. I would say that the Indian public has a legitimate interest in violent attacks carried out against people of Indian origin even if they are not citizens of India (though I agree reporters need to make clearer what they mean by “Indians”).

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