Burqa or bikini, don’t tramp on bedrock freedoms



A French parliamentary report on January 26 called for a ban on the burqa, the full Islamic veil. “The wearing of the full veil is a challenge to our republic. This is unacceptable,” the report said, adding: “We must condemn this excess.” Click here for full French text.

If anything, it is the French proposal that is excessive and extreme. It infringes on some bedrock freedoms. In that sense, it’s so anti-French. It stigmatises both Islam and Muslim women. The proposed ban is also self-defeating. While it equates the veil with women’s subjugation, it will end up discriminating against those who voluntarily wear it.

According to the French police department, about 1,900 women, mostly living in Paris and below 40, wear the full veil. That’s just .038 of France’s 5 million estimated Muslims.

Unlike many African and Asian Muslim women, who drag on social parameters and are not expected to take informed decisions, these are French Muslim women, brought up in their Western milieu, wearing the burqa by choice. They may no longer have the freedom to do so.

The proposal is preceded by Switzerland’s vote to ban minarets. Together, the two moves represent Europe’s irrational fear of religious symbols. It seems to stem from Europe’s well-known fears of some political symbols.

The burqa is not the same as the Third Reich uniform; neither is the minaret — with its crescent with a star at the centre — the same as the swastika or a hammer and sickle.

Religions have symbols: Judaism has the Star of David, Hinduism has the ‘Aum’ and Chistianity, the Cross. They have often manifested themselves as political symbols; the two uses sometimes not being mutually exclusive.

However, such symbols need to be seen in context. A minaret in a mosque in present-day Europe is an utterly religious symbol, not political.

With an understanding of Islam limited to its political fringe, not the spiritual core, Europeans see in the minaret a symbol of Islamist supremacy. To a student of architecture, it can still be awe-inspiring for its beauty.

The French proposal has its roots in laïcité, which in France began as a complete separation of the Church and State. Now, it has evolved to another extreme and is being taken to ludicrous levels. In 2004, France banned all religious symbols in public schools. In reality, it ended up affecting only Muslim girls’ right to education.

Laïcité has now become, in my opinion, an anti-assimilation force. Those who complain of French dereliction of immigrant Muslims should know how France accommodated Jews in the first place. The French National Assembly in 1791 had declared during a vote to grant full citizenship to French Jews: “They must be granted everything as individuals and nothing as a nation (as a community).”

The proposal to ban the burqa follows President Nicholas Sarkozy’s target of the veil last July, when he called it an “affront to human and civil rights in a modern secular society”.

President Sarkozy’s relationship with Islam itself has been confounding. In January 2008, he went to Saudi Arabia and hailed Islam as “one of the greatest and most beautiful civilisations the world has ever known”. He said: “Fourteen centuries ago, from this place, went forth the great élan of piety, fervor, and faith that would carry off everything it met, that would convert so many peoples and bring about the birth of one of the greatest, most beautiful civilizations that the world has ever known. Here in Saudi Arabia are the holiest sites of Islam, towards which every Muslim in the world turns to pray. […] The West received the Greek heritage thanks to the Muslim civilization. […] No doubt, Muslims, Jews and Christians do not believe in God in the same manner. No doubt, they do no have the same way of venerating God, of praying, of serving him; but, at bottom, who could deny that it is the same God to whom they address their prayers?” For French text, click here.

The veil is frowned upon because western society is open: it likes to see faces and more. The burqa also wrongly conjures up the images of a radical Islam. But attitudes should not be allowed to clash with core freedoms, including the right to wear an attire of one’s choice and practise one’s faith.

There is a flip side to a potential burqa ban. For many women, the burqa means the freedom to move about in public spaces. It allows many Muslim women to go to school and offices, thus empowering them. What happens to women who find themselves extremely uncomfortable without the veil? What options do they have? Remain confined?

The French National Assembly resolution would pave the way for a legislation making it illegal for anyone to appear with covered face. Those turning up at the public offices or any government building wearing the full veil would be denied services. How will France give space to turban-wearing Sikhs or yarmuke-wearing Jews?

As President Obama said in his Cairo speech: “I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is denied equality.”

Burqa as tool of domination is a Western interpretation of women’s oppression when seen from the perspective of women who choose it even when they are free to shun it, like French women for example.

The French parliamentary report also recommends measures aimed at Muslim welfare, including the creation of a “national school of Islamic studies”, debates on the nature of Islamophobia and direct aid for the building of mosques and Islamic cultural centres as well as marking of two new national holidays, Islam’s Eid and Judaism’s Yom Kippur.

These proposals were not approved by the commission, and are included in the report simply as “individual suggestions”. Even so, how can France at once think of banning the veil and yet fund mosques?

The Muslim will not be prevented by his religion from being a good French citizen, if only the government will give him his rights. Stepping back from the burqa proposal would be a sagacious first step.

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  • http://REHMANKIM.WORDPRESS.COM KARUKAPADATH

    Wearing a burqa, what is wrong in it.?. Do you think, showing all the sexy parts of a lady, is good?. Exposing the body parts of a lady to other men is not good. it will spoil the civilization.

    [Reply]

    Vikram Reply:

    your ‘civilization’ also probably includes confining women to the hearth and home, growing beards to cover the sexy male faces, and stoning people to death for having done ’sexy’ things.

    [Reply]

    F .A Reply:

    mr vikram.
    i really doubt your knowledge on religion. you should first gather some knowledge about islam and then make some comment.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Islamic a facistic ideology which aims to subdue and conquer all the world’s populations. Feel free to debate me on this issue any time. I could paste some really wonderful verses from the Qur’an and the tafsir thereof if so desire.

    Sam Reply:

    F.A does not know the real islam.
    please learn about violent history and slavery involved in islam..\

    do you know British banned slavery in Mecca/Medinah ?
    if not for british, arabs would still be trading slaves from africa, india..

    do you know indians were sold as slaves in Baghdad after muslim thugs looted india ?
    (done in the name of islam)

    Sam Reply:

    Where does it say in Koran, that woman have to wear a Burqa ?

    Please quote the relevant verse which explicitly requires full face/full body covering ?

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    No sam, the Qur’an does not say anywhere that women should cover themselves up with a viel. It just says that women should dress modestly.
    The problem is that this is an open statement and can be exploited in any way desired by those who wrote the commentaries on the Qur’an. If you really wish to understand the Qur’an then you need to pick up a copy of Tafsir. That is the way that Muslims understand the Qur’an and I am sure that it works for a non-muslim too.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    what is modesty defined as ?
    who can define ?
    a western woman can describe modesty as a two-piece bikini on a beach.

  • shruti

    While an absolute ban on any cultural symbol goes against the principles of democracy, we have to understand the root of the problem here. The full-length burqa is not being banned only because it’s a religious symbol; it may also pose a security issue. Just imagine this…anyone, even a man may don a face-covering burqa and enter a jewelry shop to rob it. The CCTVs would be rendered ineffective. I think there was a similar debate raging sometime back.

    If this is the problem the French are trying to overcome, they should draw the line at banning face-veils for everyone, not just Muslim women. Muslim women should be allowed to wear burqas provided it leaves the face uncovered.This need not be a ‘burqa vs bikini’ issue at all. And there’s no need to drag in religion everywhere.
    I would like to mention here that I find this obsession with women’s clothing and the dictates of society regarding this demeaning and suffocating. It’s as if women are being punished because of their bodies.

    [Reply]

  • Zuber

    Sirjee,

    Since French Revolution times, no citizen can cover their face.

    It is the origin of French beards. No veils also

    The French are consistent for many centuries

    [Reply]

  • Indian

    Full cover face veil should be banned!!! It is just plain ridiculous!!

    [Reply]

  • perpetual.dilettante

    The other “bedrock” principle which needs to be respected is the separation of the church and the state. I think in that respect, the law that has been passed is a necessity, and the furore over the issue reflects a general disregard for what the French nation holds sacred till date. What also needs to be remembered is that in general the European nations have a better track record of respecting the basic human rights as compared to other nations which allow burqas but trample on many other more important elements of human rights.
    The other interesting point is that this very separation of the church and the state also allows commentators like the author of this piece to take a swipe at the state. I wonder whether he would have the testicular fortitude to vehemently express his opposition to some of the laws of the middle eastern countries, which are repressive, antediluvian, and violate every single aspect of human rights that can be imagined.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk Iftikhar

    Salaam

    There is no complusion in Islam.

    I have seen western educated Muslim women are in Burqa while their mothers never even covered their heads in Pakistan. I do not know whether it is due to western education or because they find themselves victim of racism. According to Lord Burtend Russell, western education makes a man stupid and selfish. The credit cruch in the world is due to the policies of blue eyed western educated elites. British schooling is also in a mess because of such western educated elites.

    Burqa is not locking women, it is a buffer line between protecting chasity and exposing. Being naked and drunk is acceptabl but being covered and modest is inhuman.

    French president wants Muslim women to be topless like his wife who posed topless in fashion shows. He has no right to ban the burqa because it is undemocratic and an unqualified attack on individual freedom. Burqa is not just a piece of cloth but a lot of ideological and cultural connotation to it. Women are just being exploited in the name of rights. Burqa protects women’s rights and treat each women like a princess. No one has the right to ban the freedom of choice in a secular and democratic country. The right to choice is a basic fundamental right the person should have.

    French president’s interpretation of burqa as a symbol of subservience is false. It is a usual habit of western ideologists to twist history and distort the facts inorder to project their culture as superior one. The president should be criminally tried for spreading such falsehood. To veil or not to veil should be an individual choice. Dress codes are for children, not for adults. Government legislated dress codes for the Taliban religious policy not western democracies. Women should be free to wear burqas. If women can get away with wearing cropped shirts and pants that show their panties, they should be able to waer burqas too.

    One Muslim woman, Caroline Chaiima, writing in Lepoint.fr, said she wore a veil: “Let those most closely concerned speak. I am a French woman born in France, with French parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and I am a Muslim. I wear the full veil and I feel like saying: So what? I am happy behind the veil, I protect myself from depraved stares. Neither my father, nor my brother, nor my husband forced the full veil upon me; it’s a personal choice.”
    Iftikhar Ahmad
    London School of Islamics Trust
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Iftikhar,
    ‘Burqa is not locking women, it is a buffer line between protecting chasity and exposing.’
    Why is chastity reserved for women? Why don’t we see men in burqas? Don’t they need to protect their modesty from lecherous women? No, of course not!
    All these rules about ‘modesty’, not only in Islam but everywhere else too, are designed due to the promiscuity of men, perpetrated by self-righteous men like you and upheld by all other men. I can see not a single logical explanation of how a burqa succeeds in protecting the ‘virtue’ of a woman; a pepper spray does that job better.
    And that rant against western education is unseemly. Nothing is entirely good or bad, it’s what we make out of it that decides if it will be good or bad. Western ideals of democracy, free thought and speech, science and innovation are what have led the world into a new era of progress. You may accept all that’s good and reject the unsavoury parts of it. But don’t condemn it as totally bad.

    [Reply]

    Vikram Reply:

    “western education makes a man stupid and selfish”, “credit cruch in the world is due to the policies of blue eyed western educated elites” thats rich coming from someone who is probably living on the generosity of the British state grants. If you are so disgusted with the western world why dont you return back to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and follow your religion with all its perverse logics. I would have more respect for the Taliban who actually stay put in their own land and follow what they belive then people like you who enjoy all the trapping of the western world while continuing to berate it.

    [Reply]

    Somasundaram, Chennai Reply:

    Dear Vikram;
    your response is unsolicited and this type of comments it is not suitable for you like educated people from India (India is the great secularist country). As I understand Islam is a great relegion and has 158 crores followers in all over the world (278 countries). Islam treating the all men and women are equally irrespective of their color,nationality, wealth and family. and I know many of my friends they embrace Islam after long reaserch. One verse from Quraan is very attracted to me… God talking to Human beeing..
    ‘Oh! Mankind you are from one father and mother, why i am (God) differenciate in different color,different nationality and different families only for recognizing each other’ ….. What a great a instruction from loving God.
    So please don’t misunderstand about Islam and muslims. i would like to inform you Veil it is not compulsory for muslim women… but covering the body for man and women is compulsory in Islam, but for women only she can show face and paw, because of her physical Characteristics …… so i would like to advice you to study about the relegions , especially about Islam.
    your brother….Somasundaram
    ‘May God bless you to find right path’
    somasundaram_yoganadam@gmail.com

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Do you know islam allows slavery.
    One can own slaves, as per Islam.
    Mohd owned slaves.

    It is also permitted to have sexual relations with unlimited number of slave girl, as per the religion.
    (this is beyond the permitted 4 wifes)..

    Akash Reply:

    Soma,
    Please use a spell check, if you can spare a few extra minutes from studying Islam.

    muddu Reply:

    somasundram or whatever islam is only about killing hatred and sick relegion
    why it took so long for allah to decide and why allah waited until 1400 century to send to earth a so called prophet mohmad and why allah will not create any other sensible person after mohmad has allah ran out of resources tomake one

    Akhil Reply:

    ” In 2004, France banned all religious symbols in public schools. In reality, it ended up affecting only Muslim girls’ right to education. “… Why was this ? Because only muslims wear their religion on their sleeves and wallow in it. They will believe their 6th century text as the word of god and that it has to be followed down to the last letter even in the 60th century !

    There’s something called as assimilation. If muslims cant assimilate into the french society and culture, i’m sure the taliban is more then willing to welcome the ‘faithful’ to afghanistan. Such muslims can wear as many burqas as they like over there and the men can have as many wives as they want, even though they may not be able to maintain even one wife.

    Wake up to the real world. Its high time muslims learnt that its now the 21st century and not the 6th.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Rajeev
    What about Sohail Tanvir?
    If I am not wrong he made a statement on Hindus but what is this?

    Rajeev Reply:

    I am just learning from Sohail Tanvir.

    Saritha Gopala Krishnan Reply:

    Dear Vikram;
    I am studying about Hinduism , Christianism & Islam since 7 years. I found that Islam is continuation of both religions. Please don’t comment something we don’t have knowledge. Islam Is great religion and its history like open readable book (if you like to learn). If we are studying about Islamic, Slaves were the back born of the Arabian people the time Prophet Birth. Prophet Mohammed encourages releasing them as the penalty of sin. If you read final speech of Prophet Mohammed you can realize that. Please go thru the link, if you are interested to find truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62xHNvvGsFU

    . We should study his all history from child hood and up to death. Western and post modern Indian people what they are doing ? they are not marrying, they are just having life partner for the period of 6 months or maximum one year! And they are looking for other for their satisfaction. But Islam is strongly prohibited the prostitution and illegal sex. One man can marry up to four, if one wife has sickness or she cannot satisfy him.. But they should be equally treated, if no it will be big sin in front of God.
    If you go thru our history (Indian) almost all the Hindu kings had more than 10 wives.
    So don’t blame the total Muslim community, even though some people doing controversial things.
    Best Regards.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Mohd claims he is a direct link to Muslim God (through revelations).

    Then how come Muslim God allowed slavery ?

    Should we “un-ban” the slavery, as it is allowed in that religion ?
    There are Muslim clerics in Saudi calling for Slavery.
    Will you allow this ?

    what if they claim, that the world is not allowing muslims to practice their religion freely by banning Slavery ?

    Saritha Gopalakrishnan Reply:

    Dear Sam;
    How you can be narrow minded like this! God not for muslims only, God he is the one and creator of all universe including human being.
    Infront of God, there is no muslim or non-muslim, hindu or non-hindu, Christian or non-christian.

    I hope you understand, God almighty for all incluing living and non-living things.

    Sam Reply:

    How can you be narrow minded to hijack the word Allah for Muslims only ?

    look what is happening in Malaysia and other places…

    i know arab christians also used Allah to denote god..
    this happened more than 7 centuries before islam.

    now islam wants to reserve this word exclusively for them..

    how come they are so narrow minded ?

    anyway Allah denotes Arab moon god.
    they should change that word, to start with..

    Amit Julka Reply:

    Iftikhar man….That lil of speech was enough to give the entire population of Poland nausea…If you think that speech of yours is gonna help your religion,I suggest learn PR

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    “I have seen western educated Muslim women are in Burqa while their mothers never even covered their heads in Pakistan. I do not know whether it is due to western education or because they find themselves victim of racism. According to Lord Burtend Russell, western education makes a man stupid and selfish. The credit cruch in the world is due to the policies of blue eyed western educated elites. British schooling is also in a mess because of such western educated elites.”

    You are merely being racist here! By saying that white people are the cole cause of the porblems around the world you are not doing a favour to your faith or your belief system. It was the European civilization that laid the basis for modern science as we know it.

    “Burqa is not locking women, it is a buffer line between protecting chasity and exposing. Being naked and drunk is acceptabl but being covered and modest is inhuman.”

    And how exactly do you protect the chastity of a woman by covering her up in a garment which at best resembles a tent? By the way, why are you muslims so much in love with the idea of a chaste woman or better still a woman who bleeds the first time she has intercourse with her husband. Getting drunk is okay, as long as you are not creating a nuisance for others people. You have the freedom to live a life free of Alcohol. However in Islamic societies wearing a Burqa is not an option but a compulsion. The fact is that Islamic soceities witness more crimes against women (most of which go unreported) than no-islamic, liberal and secular Western or Westernised societies.

    French president wants Muslim women to be topless like his wife who posed topless in fashion shows. He has no right to ban the burqa because it is undemocratic and an unqualified attack on individual freedom. Burqa is not just a piece of cloth but a lot of ideological and cultural connotation to it. Women are just being exploited in the name of rights. Burqa protects women’s rights and treat each women like a princess. No one has the right to ban the freedom of choice in a secular and democratic country. The right to choice is a basic fundamental right the person should have.

    Well I am quite sure he does not want that. However he wants them to live like dignified humans who have a face and not faceless tent clad zombies whose only job is to produce babies every year. As for democray, well you should perhaps try and democratize your beloved Islamic heavens before giving a sermon to the French about Democracy. Again burqa is not a choice but a compulsion.

    “French president’s interpretation of burqa as a symbol of subservience is false. It is a usual habit of western ideologists to twist history and distort the facts inorder to project their culture as superior one. The president should be criminally tried for spreading such falsehood. To veil or not to veil should be an individual choice. Dress codes are for children, not for adults. Government legislated dress codes for the Taliban religious policy not western democracies. Women should be free to wear burqas. If women can get away with wearing cropped shirts and pants that show their panties, they should be able to waer burqas too.”

    Well, you have to follow the laws of the country in which you live. For example if I happen to go to Saudi Arabia, my wife and even my five year old daughter would have to cover themselves up in a way they would never do in India or France. if you don’t like it in France to go back to your Islamic Paradise where women can wear all the Burqas they like.

    “One Muslim woman, Caroline Chaiima, writing in Lepoint.fr, said she wore a veil: “Let those most closely concerned speak. I am a French woman born in France, with French parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and I am a Muslim. I wear the full veil and I feel like saying: So what? I am happy behind the veil, I protect myself from depraved stares. Neither my father, nor my brother, nor my husband forced the full veil upon me; it’s a personal choice.”

    Sheer nonsense! If she is so wrorried that men will look at her then probably she should not come out of the confines of her house. Listen supressing basic human nature does not make moral societies. You people have been trying that for the last 1500 years without any sucess. Its high time you guys gave it up!

    [Reply]

  • Akash

    Iftikhar,
    Go bury your silly head in the sand. What are you doing in London if you find the western civilization so demeaning.
    And, stop that nonsense about “There is no complusion in Islam.”

    Zia,
    Why not recommend burqa for men too? They need to protect their chastity too. Would you, for example, wear a burqa and set a precedent?

    I am glad that Sakhozy has drawn the line.

    Viva la France!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    The problem is that there is nothing called moderate or liberal muslim.
    The muslims of of three types-
    1. A fundu who uses mellow language to promote fundamentalism. (like Zia)
    2. A fundu who uses harsh illogical arguments to promote fundamentalism and to defend hard core terror acts. (like Bobby)
    3. A hardcore jehadi. (Osama)

    All three have following purposes-
    1. Maximum use of propaganda against everyone.
    2. Abuse other faiths and reject them without even understanding.
    3. Work towards domination of Islam over other faiths all over the world.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    OK, I buy the arguemnet that French are restricting freedom to behave and dress by banning burqa because burqa is integral part of Islam. This is very reasonable complaint by muslims.

    But going around in biknis and not fully covered is part of french civillization so why does Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries ban biknis in public places.

    This freedom song should be a two way street. I’d like to go around in Mecca and curse Allah as muslims do all around the world abusing other faiths. I want full right to worship my 33 million pagan gods in Saudi Arabia. I want to demolish mecca one day and give it back to true owners pagans. Are muslims ready to give this kind of freedom to non-muslims? We have already given them full freedom to demolish our places of worship, poach on our women, go around in our holy cities abusing our faith and demanding preferred treatment for being most irresponsible citizen of any country.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I challenge Islam to give back Mecca/Medinah/Kaaba to restore pre-islamic religions of Arabia.

    Since Islam occupied them, it is legitimate to ask for them to leave those sites.

    If islam is tolerant and peaceful, they should do this and set an example about what they say is same as they practice

    [Reply]

    Saritha Gopalakrishnan Reply:

    Dear Sam Bhai;
    Now you owned house, before owner was somebody. You are ready to give back to them?
    Arrya all invaded Bhrath long back and they killed thousands of Dravidas, are you ready to compensate them?
    your beloved syster.
    Saritha

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    The question is DID ISLAM occupy other religions places or not ?

    this is very recent and there is 100% historic proof.

    when will they give up this forcefully occupied territory ?

    they do not have legitimacy to occupy this in the first place

    shiney Reply:

    Brilliant reply. I totally and completely agree. Freedom cannot be a one way street. Point is u write about France, because u still think somewhere sometime this rule will change, u dont write about Saudi Arabia, because u have no hope on earth that there will ever be a chance for individual liberties. Wearing a full face veil in public is ridiculous to say the least. I get to see 5yr old kids wearing burqas, what chastity is being protected? Absolutely stupid and outrageous.
    To the author of this blog – well, decide what u want to do? Educated people like u supporting such ridiculous practices is the wrong way to take ur religion forward. According to ur logic, based on ur usage of Obama;s quote it means that a woman can get educated but she still has to live in a burqa, so who is going to give her a job? I mean if i own a company im not going to hire someone whose face i cant see. Lets get practical, all religions need to evolve and educated people like u need to discourage stupid practices to let them evolve, instead it seems to be more of an ego issue here. Burqa and Libery …….not sure they really gel, France has got it absolutely right.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Problem with Burqa is not only of personal freedom, but the attendant Baggage also. For one, the claims that wearing a Burqa is sign of purity and by implication those who don’t, are loose woman, sexually unsatisfied and/or competing to attract males with superior Genes, unlike Muslim women who have direct access to the best gene pool.

    Further, wearing a veil might be an expression of freedom for some Muslim women, but many of us have seen Muslim women leaving their Homes in veils only to dump it after a safe distance. We also remember that disgusting episode in Saudi Arabia, when dozens of young women ran out of a Building on fire (without their veils) only to be told that the fire outside was worse as SA’s sexually deprived men were on the loose and they should prefer to burn themselves in the other fire.
    Notwithstanding these, a Ban is still not justified and Muslim women must have the freedom (how do we know it was their choice is a separate question) to veil themselves if they chose to. At the same time, we have to acknowledge the rights of others also, organizations or individuals. A teacher or a doctor must have the right to refuse teaching or treating those who won’t show their face, (or for e.g. those will sit with their backs facing the doctor, or a class of students wearing black face masks, these are comparable to the face veils ). (Some Jokers want the face veils to be treated on par with a doctor’s Surgical Masks!!). A bank or a jewelry store or a supermarket should also be free to decide how they serve (or not serve at all) such people and this need not be merely on the grounds of security. If a bank wants the veiled women to use a separate counter, you can’t cry discrimination. Although Public services in principle must be offered to all without any discrimination, those who are in-charge, also have individual rights and deserve the same treatment as those of pvt. sphere.
    Human interactions do have some ground rules (although not codified), which cannot be breached just because my culture or religion is different. Veils do breach them more often than not. If muslims in a meat packaging company can refuse to touch pork, because their religion does not allow it, others are far more justified in refusing to deal with veiled women, as in many cultures, talking to someone without looking at his/her face is rude and insulting. No just that , in case of a face veil the implications are worse. Because, your face veil tells me that I am considered an out-of-control beast with irrepressible sexual hunger. I and many others do believe that we are decent human beings and women or anyone for that matter have no reason whatsoever to be scared of us and If your interaction with us questions that premise, then you have “Absolute Freedom” to interact with only those who consider you Meat, covered or uncovered.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ifthkhar & other supporters of the veil,

    I am sure you are aware that vitamin D is extremely important for humans. Vitamin D deficiency has been shown to play a role in almost every major disease, such as cancer (including breast, prostate and colon), osteoporosis and osteopenia, heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis,…the list is endless…The ONLY natural source of vitamin D is through exposure to sunlight (Vitamin D is produced by the skin in response to exposure to ultraviolet radiation from the sun). Any person who is fully covered would suffer from vitamin D deficiency. This deficiency would be more pronounced in the northern hemisphere (europe) where sunlight is at a premium.
    http://www.tonic.com/article/everything-you-need-to-know-about-vitamin-d-frank-lipman/

    You will be well aware, Islam prohibits a person to take any action that would harm oneself!. So from this viewpoint, Islam itself does not allow wearing of the full veil as it will be harmful to the wearer.

    Coming to the issue of freedom of choice to wear the face veil, I find find the statement “freedom of choice to wear the veil” extremely ironic. In saudi arabia, for the locals, the there is no question of choice involved. You simply have to wear the full face nikab, period. In malaysia all women govt. employees just have to wear the head covering (though the face is open), no option of “choice” here also & so on.

    Coming to western education which has been instrumental in giving us western technology, I would like to know whether you go to a muslim quack when you are unwell or to a modern western hospital?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    this surely takes the cake..
    you would make a formidable opponent in a group discussion; trust you to provide a whole new perspective!
    Let me, however argue that in the hot sun of the deserts, covering yourself from head to toe (whether men in their kabayah or women in burqas) is a protection mechanism against skin-burn or worse.
    In the extreme cold climes of the upper latitudes, a hat and a muffler, elegantly co-exists with a veil and affords protection against the elements.
    However, in India, for the most part no such case can be made out.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    Actually this was aimed at Ifthkhar who is from the UK.

    Islam claims it is for all places, all times & all people. Hence the veil is to be worn by muslim women irrespective of location.

    Further as I have mentioned, the incidence of tuberculosis is significantly higher amongst fully veiled women, obviously as they get so much less of fresh air.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed, I know.
    my post was firmly tongue in cheek :-)

    Seriously though, I wish Muslims (and of course Zia) found better issues to espouse and debate.
    By their fixation with veil/ no-veil, beard/ no-beard, holiday on Friday or Sunday.. aren’t Muslims trivializing the debate?
    Aren’t universal education, health, women’s emancipation issues that Muslims can adopt as “their” causes? As a community Muslims are laggards in various socio-economic indicators. They have the most to gain.

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    At some level the beard,veil, friday hols,education, women’s emancipation etc are all linked. My wife who has taught to Saudi girls in the age group 18-22 tells me that a more empty headed & immature group of girls in that age bracket would be hard to find. All they are interested in is fashion & men because they never had the chance to even be in proximity with men.

    As a consequence of this unnatural segregation sexual frustration in women (and men also) is at its extreme so much so that the entire population is obsessed with sex. Now how on earth can you expect anyone to concentrate on physics when sex is all he/she can think about?
    In other words a healthy interaction between the sexes simply acts as a pressure release valve.

    Further, the population is taught blind obedience & faith to Islam practically from birth. Now can a scientific temper ever be inculcated if you stop questioning?

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Syed/Ashish

    “Islam claims it is for all places, all times & all people.” Precisely and More
    Given that, is it possible for science or scientific temper to be, not subject to that claim? One example :

    “Qur’an is guide till the end of this world for not only Mustlims but all human beings. Qur’an is the words of Allah; therefore it is free from all kinds of errors. Science will have to accept and follow the Qur’anic teachings. So far whatever science has revealed, all have already been mentioned in the Qur’an centuries ago” (That statement is not from some fringe, check out the link: http://www.twocircles.net/2010jan20/lectures_qur_anic_wisdom_and_knowledge_science_amu.html )

    So Vitamin D and sunlight better behave!

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Interesting quote from your wife. We played host at home to a Muslim family (wife’s ex colleagues, both doctors) who now work in SA, for a couple of days last week. They have very interesting tales to relate about how they are being coached to not accept food from Kaffirs (Hindu doctor colleagues). The husband is grimly preparing for US MLE so that they can get out as fast as they can; wife has told him, either he clears, “or else”.
    @SKS :-)

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish, SKS

    All religions have evolved, changed with the times. There is no reason why Islam would not have done the same in light of the modern world.
    However Islam’s evolution has been artificially stopped, nay actually reversed. You can fight money power to an extent but saudi arabia does not even have a limit on how much it can spend on propagating its brand of Islam not only through money but through any means.

    Compared to the problems caused by by pakistani/african origin muslims in europe, Indian origin muslims are extremely well adjusted. I wonder why? Maybe because they are used to living as a minority as compared to Pakistanis etc. who have been bought up in a different environment.

    Sam Reply:

    “There is no reason why Islam would not have done the same in light of the modern world.”

    Can you explain more ?
    As per my understanding, in biology and evolution theory…
    not animals could evolve or transition when the enviroment changed ?

    what is internal or inherent in islam for this to happen.

    just because some other religions changed, it is not imperative islam will also change.
    in humanity several religions could not transition and died their natural death..

    syed Reply:

    @Sam,
    We have already discussed earlier, there are many religions whose scriptures are more violent than Islam. When followers of such religions can change, I do not see any reason why the followers of Islam also cannot change IF left to their own devices.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    What you say could be very well be true in future.
    For a moment:
    give a possible explanation just looking from inside islam.
    What in islam could make it change ?
    Under what scenario and conditions it can happen ?

    There could be 10 criminals and each of one them could become a good person for different reason (or some may not)..

    so for each situation it is different.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    I do not see much hope for the immediate present

    syed Reply:

    One thing that can make Islam change might be something cataclysmic … such as another major terrorist attack in the US which will make the US seriously reconsider its unholy alliance with Saudi & salafi Islam.

  • Dev

    Burqa and Freedom ? That’s rich.

    [Reply]

  • arindam

    Hi Zia,
    I agree with you that banning customs and rituals or clothings are against the tenets of islam.In your artcle one thingrankled which was expressed in this line “The veil is frowned upon because western society is open: it likes to see faces and more”.This line to me means you are not concerned about burqa’s but also against women wearing skirts or anything else which might show skin.Here I feel you have made an mistake of equating the two conditions.
    To be frank I don’t have much knowledge about religions so please forgive me if i say anything wrong.
    Tell me any religion which says a particular custom needs to be adhered to strictly?If that was the case don’t you think that alcohol and tobacco should be banned?I have personally seen people from the arab countries enjoying a drink or two.I have seen pious brahmins indulge in drinking.
    The point is we need to understand why the burqa was banned.True if i go by your figures 1900 odd women in paris use a full face veil but how can you say for sure they are doing so voluntarily?
    Yes banning of Minarets is a retrogressive step but banning full face covering burqa’s bad?
    Hell NO!!!!!!!!!
    I will just give you an example If I am talking to someone i would liketo see that person’s face and not to a veil i would talk.
    See all religions are open to interpretations but only the “chosen few” do it and tell us what to do and we being lambs follow blindly.But what we miss is that we are equally if not better equipped to interpret religion than those “chosen few”.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.zalgnis.blogspot.com Ankush

    I don’t understand why Mr. Sarkozy is being so easy on religion?

    Why ban only the burqas?? Ban the turbans, crosses around the neck & the ‘Habit’ worn by nuns…

    They represent religion too… & many ppl are made to wear them under compulsion…

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    ‘Ban the turbans, crosses around the neck & the ‘Habit’ worn by nuns…’..

    All religious symbols are already banned in public places.
    Read more..

    [Reply]

  • Kalyani Kapur

    Zia, I was really impressed by your introduction that you are someone who has read the Koran with the thought that you will be better able to interpret it so as fight Islamobhobia.

    But sadly your article is extremely disappointing. For a couple of reasons, why only talk about burqa when we are talking about this religion. There are much better things for e.g; Prophet Mohd (pbh) said that for education you should travel as far as China. That was the importance he gave to it. His wife Hazrat Khadija was a very apt business women. His daughter Fatima, who was given a choice to chose her partner. Ther are better things in Islam that should be propogated & talked about than the burqa. Koran no where talks about the burqa. Modesty isn’t something that needs burqa to cover. It shows in our action and in our deeds. Shame they say lies in the eyes which burqa anywhich ways doesn’t cover. I will also advise you to read about Hazrat Rabia. Some people that make this religion proud.

    Women should be empowered & there are better ways to do it than propagate burqa. So, Zia, get a good guru under him try to understand Islam. They say Charity begins from home, so do yourself a favour try & read it again also stop inflating your ego where you feel that you can stop Islamophobia.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim prophet’s wife being a businesswoman is over hyped.

    Only Pre-islamic Arab culture let her be a businesswoman.
    After islam, it would not have been possible.

    so do not give credit to islam for her being a independant woman..
    Arab’s should reclaim their pre-islamic heritage and throw evil idealogies into dustbin of history..

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    You nailed it.. Whiel she was alive Muhd was not allowed to go on marrying spree either..

    I always aks muslims if pagans were so intiolerant how come muhd survived for 13b long years in mecca despite abusing tpagan gods.

    By contrast can anyoen survive even a single second in any muslim country after ciriticisn allaha dn muhd..

    Obviously the kidn of freedom and tolerance practce by pagans in 7th century abrais is not visisble even in thsi day and age in muslim society

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    After Islam came, arabs became less tolerant…

    if islam is so tolerant, why did they occupy Kaaba ?
    why didnt they build their own places of worship, instead of occupying other religions sacred places.

    Islam has a birth defect right there…

  • Sumeet

    This blog is nothing more than the muslim propaganda obviously sedated with lousy logics and irrational arguments. First assumption that wearing burqa is an integral part of Islam is in itself wrong. Infect wearing burqa is optional and it is by choice just like wearing bikini (on a beach) is. If wearing bikini can be banned in some countries then wearing burqa could also be banned so why so much fuss?
    Further to compare importance of burqa in Islam with that of turban in sikhism is a flawed argument, as it is compulsory for every sikh to wear his turban and as already mentioned wearing burqa is not compulsory.
    Another flawed argument being put forward is that, as only 1900 muslim women wear burqa so why ban it? Well there is some thing called ‘NIPPING IN THE BUD’. Which is what french government is doing. If so much of ‘hai tauba’ when only 1900 of them wear burqa just imagine what would have been the reaction of muslim world if French government would have tried to ban it lets say when 19,000 or 1,90,000 women would have been wearing it?

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Mr Zia suggests that the ban on veil, along with the swiss ban on minarets, represent Europe’s irrational fear of
    religious symbols.

    If other european countries followed swiss-style democracy, Mr Zia would have ended up with a more precise statement, when he used “European fear”. Even then calling it a fear of “religious symbols” would be far off the mark. Because what we know now, suggests this to be more of a “some” religion problem. Undoubtedly, we could end up with a de facto scenario where it looks like an “All” religion problem in near future, if not immediately. But the underlying reason would still be “some” religion than all.

    While it is certainly upto me and within my “Rights” to label the fear, as “irrational”, but if I had chosen to exercise my rights without ignoring my attendant obligations, I would have asked a few questions:

    For e.g. It is true that symbols of most religions, at various times have carried political meanings, the wider trend over the last 50 odd years (at least) has been to de-politicise the religious symbols. Ridiculously at time, for e.g. when UK considered changing its flag because Muslims were reminded of crusades! I would have noted, how similar(??) has been the experience in Islamic countries. Or how does it impact others, when we assert every now and then, that ours is a “TOTAL religion” which deals with every aspect of life, be it law, economics, politics, society, morals, music, arts, make-up whatever.

    I might have also wondered why is everybody’s focus on political Islam and not on the spiritual core. Could it be because, normal people in normal times are unlikely to have any interest in religions, other than their own? ( unless one happens to be in some spiritual crisis or for scholarly reasons). So when such normal people actually start looking at my religion, they would look for only those things, which in the first place is the cause of their inexplicable interest.
    Could it be because some of the European countries have Muslim groups seeking to replace their governance model with a Divine System? Yes they might be few in numbers, but happen to be one of the main reasons (apart from the terror unleashed in the name of Islam, wrongly or rightly is irrelevant) why normal people start thinking about Islam.
    More importantly, there is hardly a mainstream Muslim organization, which would forcefully assert that they do no want a Calliphate, not now, not later. (Almost same with definition of Innocents for the so called anti terror fatwas)
    Why is seeking a calliphate problematic, as long as it is not violent, when these guys keep on lecturing us on freedom of expression?
    Yes, it should not be problematic, but then I can’t crib that my spiritual core is being ignored.

    I could also think how are others going to look at Minarets as a non-political thing, when most of them know what the current president of Turkey (secular role model) had to say about Mosques not in some distant past? “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers…”

    Claiming parity with other religions might be good in theory, but in case of Islam, it just does not wash. It describes itself as a religion, it is hardly the same thing that a hindu or a christian calls his religion and let us not forget, Muslims proudly assert that difference every now and then. So any religion should be treated as another and Different religions should be treated the same! Different.
    It is another matter that our PC ethos can’t make that point

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @SKS

    Salafis will not stop until every woman wears a burqua. Europe, after giving refuge to all the firebrand clerics from the Middle East, is finally realizing the threat and the monster they have created.

    It is only a question of time before US will explicitly curtail the “freedoms” of Muslims. The killings of military men by the Muslim Major have really caused them to dive deeper. .

    [Reply]

    muddu Reply:

    uraenot going to publish my veiws as they ask u give real reasons and islam has none zia u r scared but islam will vanish from earth and very soon people are coming to know about what islam really is u are trying very hard to find me and i am not hiding in any cave

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Shoeb
    Salafi ideology seems to be catching up here in India as well. Interestingly, Salafis also accuse those Muslims who object to their approach by calling them sectarian, narrow minded etc. Their claim is that using terms like Salafi, Sufi, Barelvi is against the Ideology of Islam and Muslims are one Ummah.

    For US, the problem of home grown trouble is relatively recent and I doubt that they would resort to explicit measures, but American Muslims will probably have to leave under prying eyes of FBI or their informants.

    As for Europe the failure of mainstream parties to acknowledge or discuss the the substantive issues has allowed growth of far right parties. Since the swiss vote, we have seen a few questions (Anjem choudhary and his outfit in UK have been banned recenty) from less reactionary segments and that can only be good. If the concerns of mainstream are not articulated by mainstream voices, they would end up supporting (or at the very least stop opposing) the extremists who do. Perhaps, this is what has happened in case of swiss ban and there is a good chance that many of the comments here (incl. mine) a part of the same phenomenon.

    Sam Reply:

    there could be only 1900 murderers in a city/country..

    why ban them from comitting murder ?

    the rest of the people are not murderers, so should not actively ban murder.
    (also murderers are committing this act on their own free will and may not be forced to do this.)..

    hahaha

    [Reply]

  • syed

    And yes, the veil also leads to a significantly higher incidence of tuberculosis for the wearer.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    The French scenario is like the proverbial “straw that broke the camel’s back”. Muslims ((not all), push for exclusivity and separation in every thing, pushing to a point when others in the larger geographic community start recoiling based mostly on fear.

    It will be interesting what liberals say about their favorite liberal country.

    The burqua controversy is nothing more than the “Am I Muslim or am I French” question. Muslims will have to make that choice and adapt.

    France is planning a fine of $1,090 for anybody who will refuse to take off the face enclosures. Sarkozy was courageous to declare “burqua is not welcome on French soil”. French Muslims themselves say that the burqua revival there is the result of “an invasion of salafism”, the same belief that kills men, women, children in Pakistan, Afghanistan and all over. These Salafis want to go back to the Prophet’s days (although the prophet never mentioned anything about Burqua). The French is right to nip this; it has nothing to do with religious freedom and everything to do with having a country to practice freedoms. A democracy will have to make compromises to balance freedom and security. I wish Indian politicians had the courage to ban burquas in india!

    Burqua has nothing to do with ISlam as somebody else remarked in this blog. There was never a burqua clad woman in my town (witha 40% Muslim population) when i was growing up and until 20 years ago; and now I see them all around! It is the f—ng Saudi money and Wahabis/Salafis causing this. And it will not end by just wearing burqua. Given a chance, they want to drag all to the sands of Arabia as it was in 650.

    All Indians should watch out.

    [Reply]

    SHEETAL Reply:

    Dear Gopi;
    I have seen several discrimination in Christianity and Hinduism , so that i join Islam. Now i am very proud to say I am a muslim women. Islam is still young; not too old like others.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Wow…

    Islam allows Slavery.
    Slaves were sold in Mecca and Medinah until British banned them.

    Christ did not own slaves, unlike Mohd.
    Mohd was a slave owner, who captured people and made them slaves.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Good for u Sheetal. MAy Alalh bestow all his blessings on you and may you live ina world where women have only half the rights of men…

    So, why are so few Msulim women (or men) professionals???? (All ov er the world)

    Rahmath Reply:

    Akash,

    Every religion , every society has its rules, its customs….they may seem idiotic to others but they should be allowed to keep it as far as it is not harmful.There are lots of Hindu and christian customs that i don’t understand too..but that should not bother me…that’s their wish.don’t you think so?

    From what i understood from Zia’s blog, i think he meant that the right to dress in what one feels comfortable should not be tampered with…be it a burqha or bikini( though the bikini would seem a little indecent in a market wouldnt it;))

    I think the term burkha was the main problem.Maybe just banning the covering of face completely, say using tattoos. large glasses…whatever for security reasons could have been a better way to present the issue.Maybe even then there would be extremists who call foul but you can always include the moderates to say that The Quran has been consulted and it is only after considering the teachings of the religions in general that this step has been taken say for national security.Clerics could have been roped in.I think it is the term “burkhas” which has made it a religious issue of this extent.

    I don’t think veils- covering face is a mark of freedom but i think that is for the person wearing it to decide.I personally know people who voluntarily wear the purdah.(no face covering though…they know their religion) .Don’t always see it as a sign of submission.As a girl i can tell you, it is mighty uncomfortable being stared at from top to bottom …I cant tell you how demeaning it is.IN fact i have stopped traveling in crowded buses …i cant stand the groping.I don’t think its my fault or that i am sinning but hey if i can stop the eyes following me by wearing something that covers me completely…why should i not?Is it not my fundamental right to protect myself from staring eyes(though as someone suggested a pepper spray would be required in extreme cases)?

    and there are other advantages of wearing purdahs’s— more practical ones…will write about it someday….

    If wearing purdah’s is oppression then wearing designers is oppression too.Dressing for peer pressure, doing anything for peer pressure is oppression too.

    I repeat once again i am against face covering too.but the term purdah means a lot more that covering your face.

    weren’t full maxi’s fashionable once upon a time.Should i wear a particular garment only if it is approved by fashion???

    Akash, you seem to be a really sensible person .Would you really compare Sati with wearing burkha.One is dying in a torturous manner….the other is covering yourself.

    compare it with freedom of education for girl children, compare it with husbands ill treating with wives but not with murder.These are social issues not religious.

    It is not for us to say what is bad and whats is not.There are many who are forced to wear the purdah —sure there are, but there are many who are forced to do many things for peer pressure.Unless the real issue is recognized it is not possible to eradicate it.The real issue is not what religion says.It is what people understand and what people convey.

    S Singh Reply:

    rahmat

    Why should France reach out to clerics? What is with you guys and your clerics? Why cannot you leave tyour religion at home? And what is with your religion – putting bombs in the underwear, killing girls who go to school, killing people while they pray in a mosque, killing fello military men….

    Rahmath Reply:

    NO Not in the opposite directions …In the same direction.I dont wear the hijab. When i said i wear the purdah of anonymity i meant when someone looks at me, they just see a human being..There is a malayalam proverb” If you eat slowly you can eat even eat the jackfuit(whole).I cannot change the whole of arabia , i cant change the perception of islam to non muslims…. but i can try to build a bridge between 2 people.A bridge of understanding , a bridge of acceptance.Just 2 ….maybe they will become 4, then 8…then 16

    Sam Reply:

    Simple..

    Do you think France has a right to ban full face covering or not ?

    on some issues, we just need yes or no answers.

    Sam Reply:

    rahmat says “I cannot change the whole of arabia ”

    Do you even want to try ?
    did you do anything towards that ?

    if you cannot,
    then stop your image building or polishing izlam’s image..

    Frankly stop “educating about islam” or building bridges…
    Frankly stop your Dawaah..

    Rajeev Reply:

    The fact is south asian muslims are lowest of the lowest muslims in Islamic world and have absolutely no influence or significance in Islam world.

    Even Osama calls them ‘Slaves’.

    Sam Reply:

    Indians forget that Muslim thugs invaded india and took many innocent/defenseless people as slaves and sold them in Baghdad.

    If arabs from saudi are dealt the same, then they will understand their language of violence codified in Koran.

    Indian Reply:

    Could you recommend any source where I can get the gradation of type of muslims according to influence in islamic world ??

    please I need to get this info………..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Talk to your masters Arabs and ask their opinion about low lives like yourselves or visit any arab country and see how they treat south asian muslims.

    You prophet Osama also called you slaves.

    Indian Reply:

    @Rajeev

    Your answers are really funny!!!!…hahahhaa:)

    Rajeev Reply:

    Your hahahaha proves that you have no answers.

    Try visiting some Zakir Naik site, you may find some material to trash kafirs.

    By the way your prophet OSAMA called you guys slaves.

    syed Reply:

    @Rahmat,
    “…..it is mighty uncomfortable being stared at from top to bottom …I cant tell you how demeaning it is…..cant stand the groping

    Er, This might be true for India, but if you will not find this type of behavior in the west. In fact you will be stared at if you wear a burkha on the beach, not a 2 piece bikini! So should that be justification for wearing the bikini?

    The issue is that of freedom of choice but it gets more complex. You have mentioned peer pressure for designer dresses. But I have seen enough cases of both peer pressure AND parental coercion to force a girl to don a burkha. In quite a lot of muslim countries, you will note, there is no question of freedom of choice. A woman just has to cover up, no choice there.

    Maybe a lot of commentators here are scared. They have seen what runaway Islamism can do & has done to countries, both with and without muslim majorities.

    Rahmath Reply:

    @ Syed

    I agree syed.I myself was told to try it…but i didnot and my parents were not that insistent anyhow.Ya i know what you mean…i used to wear the scarf…my religious journey is a long story and you know i presently wear the purdah of anonymity.I agree with what you say…My intention was not to justify burkha. I just wanted to say that there are two sides of the same coin.People who stare stare everywhere, whether you are fully dressed or not….But it should be my option what i wear…that’s all.

    syed Reply:

    @Rahmath,
    My religious journey seems to be pretty much like yours, but in the opposite direction. Talking of freedom of options, dont you think there should be something like reciprocity.
    The world is a pretty small place now with ppl moving all over the world without much thought. Quite a lot of them (incl me) dont like their women to be forced to wear the hijab/burkha in muslim countries.

    So when in Rome…….

    Sam Reply:

    France has a right to make laws which suit them.

    They dont need to consult some Muslim cleric.
    (not a single muslim cleric is able to show any verse which asks for full face covering, for that matter).

    It is different for Sikhs males.
    They have it codified and it does not cover face..

    Sam Reply:

    Rahmath.
    you very well know fashions and others are not good examples..

    either you are deliberately trivializing the issue or genuinely ignorant …

    if some car/vehicle becomes popular, everyone is not forced to buying it…
    if some movie is a hit, everyone is not forced to watch it..

    In saudi and many other “true islamic countries” it is forced by law to wear full face covering.

    if you say, woman should have a choice, please fight those countries laws first.

    I bet you will not do it.
    you need their money, or consider them fellow izlamists..

    but you have all the energy and hate to fight Kuffar countries like France, India…
    please stop your hate and focus on your own UMMA first.

    when they say “you guys” it includes the WHOLE UMMA..

  • http://- Rajeev

    Mr.Zia and other muslim apologists,
    Pl. tell me why there is ban on constructing Temple/Church in Saudi.
    Why can’t non-muslims enter Mecca?

    Why can’t europeans go around half dressed in muslim countries?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    when will islam leave Mecca/Medinah/Kaaba ?

    these are occupied places.
    Before islam occupied them, they were religious places for pre-islam’s arab religion.

    Please call for islam to quit their occupied territory of Kaaba..

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    Bottomline 99.99999999999999999999999999% case burqua is forced and women suffer if not oblilging to the forced call for burqua.. laws are created for this 99.9999999999999999999999% majority that 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% minosoryt whose freedom walk like tent is beign violated we say sorry and they must udnertsna many more peopelm will be helped out at their cost so bite the bullet and get on with it

    [Reply]

  • Akash

    Zia,
    What do you think about this?
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201022\story_2-2-2010_pg3_2

    [Reply]

  • / ramesh

    zia,in t he Gulf countries all women wear abaya which covers the whole body except the hands &face . why cant the muslims in France accept such attire. The dean of Azher Univercity Cairo told a student that burqa is not Islamic therefore she should remove it. If sensible changes are made then all is well

    [Reply]

    Sheetal Reply:

    Dear Br.Ramesh;
    Thanks for your valued comment, it is simple and eazy solution.
    I appreciate you.
    Thanks.
    Sheetal

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Musalmano ki Zahaniyat hi aisi hoti hai..ye sab ke sab gaddar hotein hein..

    Munh mein Allah Allah aur bagal mein Khanjar..

    Sohail Tanvir Zindabad…

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    I think “banning” anything is a stupid thing to do, and is almost never effective. It simply makes the thing being banned more popular. I would not be surprised, if this leads to women who would otherwise not have worn a burqa, start a deliberate “wear burqa campaign”.

    Ofcourse wearing a complete burqa for religious/cultural reasons is the most stupid thing to do, but there are stupid people on this planet, cant help it….there is no point in banning stupidity!

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    why Satanic verses is banned? and lajja is banned? or anything “unislamic” is banned?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    well they should never have been banned, nor should the play on nathuram godse be banned anywhere in india.

    [Reply]

  • Saritha Gopala Krishnan

    Dear Sam;
    God’s messenger, Prophet Mohammed came for releasing all type of slavery and he advice to become only the slave of God. Islam is not allowing bending our head to any of Human being or non-human being (including prophet) except God. If you study the History of ‘Bilal’, he was the slave from Africa. Prophet’s first companion and first Caliph ‘Abubacker Siddeeq’ release him from Slavery, and he was given first Public Declaration about Islam (see the link) http://www.ezsoftech.com/stories/companion4.asp
    The slavery was recently banned in Europe (AD 1787), in India many places in Gujrath, Mahrashtra, Karnataka, Bihar etc. still equality night dream for lower casts.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Saritha Gopala Krishnan
    Ironic, isn’t it. You say “Prophet Mohammed came for releasing all type of slavery”

    However there are many many suras in the Quran which allow slavery. How do you reconcile this?

    Slavery was prevalent in Saudi Arabia till the 1940s. It stopped not because of Islam which clearly allowed it, but due to western influence.

    [Reply]

    Saritha Gopala Krishnan Reply:

    I think you ever read World History aswell as Indian History, if you read the world history you could realize that!
    I like to have proof Mr.Syed, i have serveral Quraanic translation i can check it it is authenticated or not, the proof not from enimies the proof from authentic Prophets words and Quraanic verses.
    please welcome for your comments, please don’t comment without your true knowledge.
    Thanks.
    Saritha

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Islam Explained in Layman’s Terms
    (Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat)

    Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

    Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

    Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

    When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well..

    Here’s how it works:

    As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

    United States — Muslim 0..6%
    Australia — Muslim 1.5%
    canada — Muslim 1.9%
    China — Muslim 1.8%
    Italy — Muslim 1.5%
    Norway — Muslim 1.8%

    At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.

    This is happening in:

    Denmark — Muslim 2%
    Germany — Muslim 3.7%
    united Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
    Spain — Muslim 4%
    Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

    From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

    France — Muslim 8%
    Philippines — 5%
    Sweden — Muslim 5%
    Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
    The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
    Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

    At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

    When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In

    Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

    Guyana — Muslim 10%
    India — Muslim 13.4%
    Israel — Muslim 16%
    Kenya — Muslim 10%
    Russia — Muslim 15%

    After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

    Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

    At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

    Bosnia — Muslim 40%
    Chad — Muslim 53.1%
    Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

    From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

    Albania — Muslim 70%
    Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
    Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
    Sudan — Muslim 70%

    After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

    Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
    Egypt — Muslim 90%
    Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
    Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
    Iran — Muslim 98%
    Iraq — Muslim 97%
    Jordan — Muslim 92%
    Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
    Pakistan — Muslim 97%
    Palestine — Muslim 99%
    Syria — Muslim 90%
    Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
    Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
    United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

    100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

    Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
    Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
    Somalia — Muslim 100%
    Yemen — Muslim 100%

    Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

    ‘Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.

    Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’

    It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

    Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.

    Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

    Saritha Gopalakrishnan Reply:

    Dear Sam;
    sorry to say that; it is unauthorized by Dr.Peter whom fighting against always Islam.

  • syed

    @Saritha Gopala Krishnan
    3 suras from the quran on slavery..I can send you 30 more if you want..

    Sura Al-Nisa
    004.024
    And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

    Sura Al-Ahzab
    033.050
    O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father’s side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother’s side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage – a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers – We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess – that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

    033.055
    It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves. O women! Keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things

    Just to elaborate a little..Sura 004.024 allows a man to have sex with his female slaves without marrying them. So much for what Islam tells about being illicit sex!

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Saritha Gopala Krishnan

    To elaborate – the sentence “whom your right hands possess” means persons(slaves)which a man owns.
    Both sura 004.024 & 033.050 unambiguously indicate that a man can have sex with his female slaves without marrying them as they are “lawful” to him. You may note that even the consent of the female slaves is not required!

    Hope this helps…

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    I banned reciting the obnoxiously misogynist verses my wife and mother recite during the annual Lakshmi Puja at home. Took some doing, they are both devout. The funny thing is, they have recited these verses all their lives without really pondering over their meanings.
    There was **** like washing your husband’s feet and drinking the soiled water.. bah! I only caught on, because an eye ailment made it difficult for my mother to read and recite as she has been doing for decades; so, it devolved upon me.
    I had to explain that I do not want my daughters grow up being exposed to such idiotic things thinking (not that my wife or even my mother has been influenced in any way :-) it’s just a matter of principle) that husbands need to be worshipped.
    My wife and mother fell in line, peace reigns at home and a great feast was had by all: which is precisely the objective, isn’t it?
    To me it is simple; have some fundamental principles, shaped by present day morality, rule of law and the principles of liberte’, egalite’, fraternite’.. and have the courage to take a stand as individuals and in communities irrespective of what is written in some book. If the Indian constitution can have been amended more than once per year on an average since being written, surely we can be more flexible, similarly, in all walks of life?

    [Reply]

  • Sunny

    Just thinking…. what if I invented a religion say ‘Benaam’, which is completely for me and my family to follow, and it has some features like this: 1/ The woman will always smear some mud on her face and put on a Zoozoo uniform before she gets out of the house. This will help her maintain her chastity, 2/ The man (I, basically) will wear torn clothes. This will upset most members of the opposite sex, as most will not look for a mate who has no money for clothes thus cementing my chastity, 3/ I will be allowed to keep fives wives, two of whom are male, the rest female. The male wives are largely servants, and sexual relations with them will not be permitted. I can, however, beat them up at night with a whip, 4/ I will run my life completely against what modern science professes: my children will not be given access to modern medicine, for example, as God will be given charge of whether they should live or not at any point in time; my children will be educated by only such books as I write, 5/ I will appeal to all courts against all movies that show stuff that I do not approve of, for example, monogamy, and I will claim that my religious sentiments have been hurt in every single book that has ever been written, because in the religion that I create, there will be a clause that states that there should only be one book in the whole world – that which I have written.

    What chance do I have of survival? What is the chance that I will be allowed to visit places frequented by normal human beings, and treated like a normal one? What is the chance I will not be sent to an asylum?

    I think, therefore, that this is not a matter of individual freedom that we are discussing here. Individuals are restrained, from an early age, through a negative feedback mechanism (by society) from being ‘religions unto themselves’ as I describe in the first para above.

    I find this behavior discriminatory. Why should I not be allowed to do all the crazy things I feel like doing? Why should the world not operate in a way that has space for all my whims and fancies? Why should antiquity in thought and power of numbers (followers) be the only factors that decide how bizarre one can be? I agree with Zia – it’s an unfair world.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Saritha Gopala Krishna
    Care to explain what u mean by “I am studying about Hinduism , Christianism & Islam since 7 years”, is that as a student/scholar of religion? Or simply out of personal interest? or something else?
    In any case, your claim that Islam is continuation of Hinduism( too amorphous to lend itself to any such precise phenomenons) and Christianity rules out at least one of the above mentioned possibilities, as far as Hinduism goes, unless, the word Scholar is redefined to mean Dr Naik. On its own, Islam assigns that position to judaism and christianity, not so much as their continuation (to be more precise) but their ‘abrogation’ (or at least of the form in which they then existed). Of course, it also claims to have abrogated everything else that preceded it and by that definition, including Hinduism, but there is hardly anything in Quran that could be identified (except idol worship) as Hinduism. Your statement that “God’s messenger, Prophet Mohammed came for releasing all type of slavery and he advice to become only the slave of God”, does the same ‘ruling out’ for Christianity as well, apart from confirming that you are a ‘Believer’ no more no less. Nothing wrong with that per se, but very important for clarity of discussion.

    Now, as for Slavery, Syed has given you a part of the “proofs” that you sought, (weblinks would have helped but that is hardly a problem). I will try to help you with the other part.

    Yes, Prophet did make some statements that, encouraged people to free slaves (by calling it a good deed for hereafter). Freeing of slaves was also mandated for expiation of some sin, but often, subject to owner’s convenience. In any case, neither enslavement of defeated tribe (women and children) was prohibited nor was keeping of slaves and slave trading continued as before (perhaps more regulated). Rules were made for fair treatment of Slaves, but slavery as a concept was not questioned. Many slaves were freed, but a significant driver was individual’s own values. This was the case in pre Islamic period as well and there are examples of this kind within Muslim Texts.

    But, as Syed pointed out, Nothing as grand as your Believers’ claim. In fact there are many examples in Hadiths which clearly establish that and perhaps more, because it was given divine sanction (not sure, it was so in pre-Islamic Arabia) Now some examples:

    This one shows a slave being ‘SAVED’ and also the ‘Mahr’ that will do:
    Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367: Narrated ‘Abdul ‘Aziz: Anas said, ‘When Allah’s Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, ‘Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.’ He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, ‘Muhammad (has come).’ (Some of our companions added, “With his army.”) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah’s Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’ He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Allah’s Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.’ So the Prophet said, ‘Bring him along with her.’ So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, ‘Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.’ Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her.” Thabit asked Anas, “O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?” He said, “Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her.” Anas added, “While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet .
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/008.sbt.html

    This one on Slave Trade:
    Volume 9, Book 85, Number 80: Narrated Jabir: A man from the Ansar made his slave, a Mudabbar. And apart from that slave he did not have any other property. This news reached Allah’s Apostle and he said, “Who will buy that slave from me?” So Nu’aim bin An-Nahham bought him for 800 Dirham. Jabir added: It was a coptic (Egyptian) slave who died that year.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/085.sbt.html

    Pricing Guidelines for Slaves under specific circumstances:
    Volume 3, Book 34, Number 362: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “If a slave-girl commits illegal sexual intercourse and it is proved beyond doubt, then her owner should lash her and should not blame her after the legal punishment. And then if she repeats the illegal sexual intercourse he should lash her again and should not blame her after the legal punishment, and if she commits it a third time, then he should sell her even for a hair rope.”
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/034.sbt.html

    This one stands out for attention to ‘DETAIL”:
    Volume 8, Book 79, Number 706: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “If somebody manumits a Muslim slave, Allah will save from the Fire every part of his body for freeing the corresponding parts of the slave’s body, even his private parts will be saved from the Fire) because of freeing the slave’s private parts.”
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/079.sbt.html

    This one shows the Multiple Utility of Slaves:
    Volume 8, Book 80, Number 732: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle gave the judgment that a male or female slave should be given in Qisas for an abortion case of a woman from the tribe of Bani Lihyan (as blood money for the fetus)
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/080.sbt.html

    This one, hardly of much interest, except as a confirmation of Syed’s explanation about right hand possessions and a personal touch:
    Volume 9, Book 89, Number 321: Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet used to take the Pledge of allegiance from the women by words only after reciting this Holy Verse:–(60.12) “..that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah.” (60.12) And the hand of Allah’s Apostle did not touch any woman’s hand except the hand of that woman his right hand possessed. (i.e. his captives or his lady slaves).
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/089.sbt.html

    This one on Optimal Asset Utilisation while Protecting shareholder value:
    Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah’s Apostle he said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?” The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/034.sbt.html

    I know it is too long, but then! Anyway does this help?

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    a well written article

    http://brooklynrail.org/2009/09/express/the-alchemy-of-identities

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    yes, it is. Straight from the heart and unaffected. Thanks

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Bobby,

    Experienced quite a lot of these things myself but was lucky to have a positve attitude & after a certain stage in life one develops a thick skin. However I know some who reacted & actually changed from diehard Indian fans to Pakistani supporters.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    “However I know some who reacted & actually changed from diehard Indian fans to Pakistani supporters.”

    You are bang on target. I am sure, almost 99% of the cases, where people accuse some indian muslims, of supporting Pakistan against India in cricket matches is precisely due to this reason. First you use your “I own India because I am a hindu” attitude and push them to the wall, by constantly making new rules of patriotism, and testing their loyality, and then when they react, which they are bound to at some point, you accuse them to be traitors. Its a old trick , used by the “majority communities” in societies, all over the world.

    Patriotism is not some innate quality that only some of the PMTF possess. Its not such a complicated thing. It just means that one has some bonding to the people around oneself, who are part of the society and whom one interacts with.

    Unlike what the “3 crackpottiers” here:- the jeev twins and uncle sam think; all reasonable people, not just the PMTF, possess this much patriotism.

    And just in case one of those three nuts, blabber to me about some s h i t written by idiots like Dr Peter Hammond (the dick head who has a Phd in “missionology” and who is basically the christian equivalent of Zakir Naik), or what happens in the KSA, let me tell them my reply in advance—- KMA.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Muslims can invent excuse for anything…No doubt muslims society is full of soft-terrorists like Booby.

    syed Reply:

    @Bobby,
    “I know some who reacted & actually changed from diehard Indian fans to Pakistani supporters”

    Actually it is called the pygmalion effect or the self fulfilling prophesy.
    For example if you keep indicating to a child (in words or action) that he is a lazy good for nothing fellow, chances are high he will turn into exactly that. (of course the reverse is true also).

    http://members.fortunecity.com/nadabs/prophecy.html

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    Where have you been? I was looking around for you to forward some articles by Farhat Taj. Do read it please :) . Looks like she doesn’t mind the drones taking out Mullah Omar and his loony tunes. And, she says that Pathan don’t care too hoots about sovereignty and all that nonsense. They just want Taliban to be smoked out!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Author of this article gives a possibly accurate, but totally one-sided view.

    for a coin, there are both heads and tails.

    Why doesnt he blame Jinnah, who created pakistan ?
    Jinnah said, if they are muslims, they cannot live with hindus and cannot be in the same country.

    Why doesnt he appreciate Hindus who let them live in india ?
    Why doesnt he ask his parents, whether they should have migrated to their muslim created homeland ?
    why doesnt he ask Sikhs/Hindus whether they had similar choice in pakistan to live ?

    in the end, it is a typical muslim mentality..
    instead of live and let live, it is only them..
    only they should live, everyone is a Kuffar..
    there is nothing good about Kuffar..

    [Reply]

  • SHEETAL

    Dear Brothers.. SKS/SYED/SAM

    Don’t waste your time to discuss this type of endless debates, try to realize why below great personalities embraced Islam.
    Cassius Marcellus Clay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali
    Cat Stevens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Stevens
    Madavikkutty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Surayya
    Yvonne Ridly: http://www.yvonneridley.org/
    A.R.Rahman: http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Sheetal,

    Why do you think these people have left Islam?

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Notable_Former_Muslims

    People leaving/embracing a religion or ideology really does not have any relevance to the debate!

    [Reply]

    Sheetal Reply:

    Dear Brother Syed;
    Don’t put yourself in trouble by giving wrong meaning of Quraanic verses and giving unauthorized sites whom trying to attack Islam.
    don’t become nerveouse, two of my collegues already embraced Islam yesterday. Not by force by understanding.So I am advicing to study about Islam more. and gain good deeds, still you have time. may be next moment you or me died. Ask God almighty for forgiveness.

    “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” – (Quraan Chapter 2, Verse:62)

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Sheetal

    On your Quraan Chapter 2, Verse:62) as above:

    Just one clarification before I move further: When you write “work righteousness” what does that exactly mean?
    Basically, is it possible to have the reward from the Lord, if one strictly follows all that is defined as righteous in Quran, except for the fact that he does not believe in Allah and so does not worship Him and he also does not believe in the last day? The question came to my mind because the verse above has AND as the connector.

    [Reply]

  • Sheetal

    Say: “O Allah. Lord of Power (And Rule), Thou givest power to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off power from whom Thou pleasest: Thou enduest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: In Thy hand is all good. Verily, over all things Thou hast power.

    “Thou causest the night to gain on the day, and thou causest the day to gain on the night; Thou bringest the Living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the Living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure.”

    Qura’an (Chapter No. 3, verses 26 & 27)

    [Reply]

  • Sheetal

    1. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

    2. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

    3. Master of the Day of Judgment.

    4. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

    5. Show us the straight way,

    6. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,

    7 those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
    (Quraan, Chapter No.1, Verses 1 to 7)

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sheetal,

    I have two questions: Why does Allah, who is al-mighty, care whether irrelevant people, like we are as compared to Allah, worship him/her/it in the first place?

    secondly: why does he/she /it keep on praising himself/herself/itself? “most merciful”, “most gracious”? Clearly humility doesnot seem to be one of his/her/its characteristics.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Sheetal
    1) Whats your definition of “unauthorized” sites? Those which you do not like?

    2) I do not know what you are expecting to achieve by reciting sura Al Imran & Al hamd. I am quite sure I know more suras than you, but thats neither here nor there.

    [Reply]

    IQBAL Reply:

    Dear Syed;
    your mind cannot open anybody without your willing, only God almighty can.
    I like to advice you one thing, if you can accept.
    please be positive mind always, don’t be negative . If you are always having negative mind you will be always in hyper tesion and unhappy.
    ‘ May God show you to right path’

    your brother

    syed Reply:

    @Iqbal
    Dear Bro Iqbal,

    Maybe my mind is open but you see it as closed and maybe your mind is closed & you see it as open!
    Things are often not what they seem…Gilded tombs do worms enfold…

    Your bro, Syed

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    when we were children and afraid of darkness, we were told by my grandmother to recite “Ram, Ram, Ram….” ad infinitum..
    to each his/ her own.
    For some Ram, Ram… for some Sura Al Imran and Sura Hamd..

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    Ya, to each his own, as long as it gives one peace, why should anyone else bother.

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    sounds terrible..
    how would you like to be called now that you have seen the light?
    I suspect your current name may not pass the test of secularism.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Seems like I had it.
    Sheetal Jee, I am going tommorrow to the nearest mosque tommorrow morning with my whole Family.

    I am converting. You have opened my eyes, and now I fear Allah and fear the Judgement Day. No more mischief in the land.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    SKS,
    This is fake sheetal. I am pretty sure it is INDIAN (read pakistani).

    By the way I have no pork (read beef) with Allah because it is arabic name for god however I have pork with false prophet Mohammad.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Saritha Gopala Krishnan or Saritha Gopalakrishnan

    Firstly, My Beloved Syster Saritha: why are you using the names of Kafir people? Gopala. Krishna are their Gods (not sure about Saritha but even that name is used by Kafir people). It is not good for hereafter.

    I am sorry, I asked you sinful questions are like you scholar or a believer. After reading your comments second time only, I realizing the deepness of your scholarship, which is full of your every word. Syster you must have learnt so many languages during your scholarship period, such as; sanskrit, Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and perhaps English also etc. But I don’t know these languages. Should I use English translations of the Quranic books for my knowledge? Which ones would you recommend? Syster, you mention studying Christianism, but are you also studying Islamism? Is Islamism different to Islam.

    Thanks for opening my eyes with so much knowledge. I had no idea that slaves were back born, very interesting, did they also do Back ceasarians? I heard so much science advanced in Islamic, but nobody explained so beautiful

    I also did not know that “Islam is not allowing bending our head to anything, including non-human being (including prophet)”. Syster is this only about our Prophet or all the prophets? But Syster, what to do when the doors are very small. My one Hindu friend’s door small, are we bending our head at the door allowed?

    Syster, why are low caste hindus having “Equality night dreams”? What they do when day dreaming?

    I learn too much from you, in future, I will not commenting avoiding without MY true knowledge as per your advising.

    BTW, why should wee seek Dr. Peter’s ‘authorization’ for any book, if he is fighting against always Islam. Should we not actually focus on those books which are “unauthorized” by Islam’s enemies!
    Beloved Syster Saritha: I became all emotional when you mentioned about how those “Arrya” people invaded ‘Bhrath’ and only killing dravidas. Thanks once again for your true guidance.

    Syster can you suggest a dependable Tafseer so that I gain Islamics, like you. But you have so much knowledge for seven years, why are you not doing Dawa’? There are so many people who need your knowledge.
    Thanks once again Syster.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Saritha is like that Sampath Kumar Iyengar … you know from where..
    By the way, the current argument is that “we are not talking about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan; we are talking about the rights in a secular India”.

    Several youngsters (belonging to Muslim community) were recently arrested here from my home district. A couple of them had been to Pakistan for terrorist training. Most of them were from rich families.

    It is Umma, man…..and to these men the question (are u first Muslim or Indian) is crystal clear..

    All Indians should watch out…

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Gopi
    Sampath Iyengar ? I know from where and I know his views , any other thing ? Umma what is that ? Are you referring to some natural fraternal tugs that people of a Universal Brotherhood Religion have for their Brothers all over the Universe ? I am sorry, I have taken my decision, seems you haven’t read some of my comments!

    BTW, eventful day today: AP High Court struck down job reservation for Muslims. The WB government announced 10 % quota in employment for Muslims under the OBC category. Nothing, nothing can stop our march to a Secular Tomorrow, High Courts Supreme Courts?

    Another surprise, I didn’t know: Professors from the Great JNU, defenders of India’s composite culture and pall bearers for our plural, inclusive, and secular future have represented to their vice chancellor, that to maintain JNU’s academic sheen, reservation for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and the physically handicapped on its academic faculty must not be allowed!
    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263782
    Finally and the only Indian institution/organization with a Sheen worth protecting. So let all of us dedicate ourselves to support these guys, for the sake of our plural, inclusive and secular future as also for maintaining our plural, inclusive and secular past (the word is composite).!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    ROTFL.. r u shure you spellet “authorization” korectly?
    btw, the market is tanking; does that explain your renewed vigour/ interest in this blog :-) ?

    Sheetal Reply:

    Dear Brother Thomas;
    First we should be human being, to be treated man kind equally. What about your forefather who came from outside? World not only India it is including other countries. so all human being is our brothers and sisters,
    We should respect our mother land…Bharath… is a great secularist country who given birth of Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekananda, Sree Narayana Guru.
    If you are Christian…. what about the Christian bombs dropped in Hiroshima & Nagasaki?
    You don’t have right to talk about the patriotism and commitment to mother land. Because most of you people were foot lickers of British
    So sorry for above dose given to you, you compel me to do that.

    [Reply]

    Rahmath Reply:

    wasn’t the topic about banning of burka???? I recently came upon this blog and i must say i really enjoy going through both the blog and the comments.Personally i think the abaya-full “tent” burqha was for the specific climatic conditions and the women wearing it should ask why the men are not wearing the islamic costume too.maybe that will answer the question of the abayas being a religious requirement or a male dominated requirement.I believe that Quran asks to cover the head and bosom with a veil.and not wear transparent clothes. Whats wrong in that.Don’t any father and mother of any religion want their daughters to be dressed modestly and for that matter their sons to be dressed properly too ????
    Personally i think the Indian dress code confirms to it.And about covering the head…hey guys…come on be fair…many .married women in the north cover it, Sikh women …Gujarati’s, Rajasthanis…..Come on….why is no one talking about all that….Why single out Islam for the blame game when apparently it is pretty prevalent in other places too.

    Akash Reply:

    Rahmath,
    You are right. Many non muslim women(and men) cover their heads as a mark of modesty or respect, but there is no universal diktat or a Pandit telling them to do so quoting some random stuff. It’s not what you do as individual that is pernicious but what is so conveniently packaged into something valid for an entire society. I agree with you that Muslims are not alone in these. Periodically, we hear about the same kind of garbage coming out of Akalis and Sankracharyas. The difference is that their hold on their followers is more tenuous. However, you can hardly blame the followers. If people like Zia go on to propagate veils as a mark of freedom, then what to expect from the rest. Freedom of choice is not a license to introduce retrograde ideas. That tent or shuttle **** veil is a hideous vestige from an earlier era, no one disagrees. So why keep it. If Sati hadn’t been banned, I am sure some idiots would have still been indulging in it on the basis of freedom et al.

    Sam Reply:

    the issue is full face covering.

    where in Koran it says, that full face covering is needed ?

    Even if koran said, why should France honour it ?

    Do muslims give similar freedoms in Saudi for Christians/Hindus ?

    The issue is muslim demands have to be met, while they do not want to give a single inch.

    world is tired of this.

    so there is a legitimate backlash going on.. which the fundoos portray as islamophobia..

    where and when will this end ?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sheetal

    I do not care about British or any other westerners. My forfathers did not come from anywhere else. They were Indian to the core; my parents are too.

    It is not christians who bombed Hiroshima; it is Americans; they belong to Roman Catholiciosm,Southern Baptism, Methodist etc . It was not a roll call by Christian religion; unlike what we witness in the an me of Allah. When Amerivcans bombed Hiroshima, they
    did not say “All hu Akbar or God is Great’. They were not destroying Budhism; their objective was destroying fascism.

    As a Christian from kerala, where christianity goes back 2000 years, I am proud of my Indian heritage; I am proud of the accomplishmnets Kerala cjhristians have contributed to national progress and prosperity. Kerala Christian nurses are serving all over india and all over the world. They have been in the forefront of Independenec movement wiytj Nehru and even ebfore.

    If you ask AK Antony whether he is a Christian or Indian first; hbis answer will be Indian first. I just do not understand why you guys have to wear your religion on ur sleeves all the time; why cannot you segregate that.

    And for ur info Bharath is not a secularist country. Secularism was incorporated with the 1950 constituition. Even before that it was a great country absorbing all cultures and all people, welcoming outsiders.

    Indian Reply:

    @Thomas

    It is difficult to say if you are praising keralalite christianity or despising muslims in this post!!!! Or do you mean to say that christianity is much closer to indian culture than islamic culture!!

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @indian

    I am just saying, for whatever reasons, Muslims want to remain isolated, exclusive; keeping away and different from the “larger” (I do not mean from a numerical perspective) community, watching the larger community and the world itself move; without an ability or willingness to be a part of the whole..the only whole, it seems, for them is umma..

    And to be honest, Muslims in Kerala were a part of the larger community until recently. The KSA built osques replacing traditional style mosques, women in burqua and hijab or naquab or whatever, bearded men etc all started with KSA oil revenue going up. So, now there is a push for learning Arabic ; not to learn Malayalam or English!

    Muslims are the richest (after Christians) in the state; still its youngsters go to Pakistan for terrorist training for the cause of distant lands.

    Indian Reply:

    I agree with you to some extent like increase in Naquab and little saudi-zation of indian muslims. But you can not generalize it. May be west coastal regions arab influence is higher because they have long history of contact with arabs. I dont buy your theory that keralite muslims dont learn Malyali or English, if they learn additional language Arabic then there is no harm in that., rather so many of them are in arab (like keralite christians), that it would only help them.

    Muslims in kerala and india are part of the Indian community culturally and they will remains so, just little change is I guess because of more of globalization than religious affinity to arabs!!

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    You are right but I am sure you don’t know why? Why is the market tanking? Bramhin-Banias are very angry that India is inviting Pakistan for composite dialogue. So they are creating problems on internal front, preventing GOI from pursuing peace with Pakistan. What happened at IPL auctions was also a part of their plan, forged some time back in a dark and smokey room, along with Reps. from Fascist, Zionist and Imperial forces.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Now I understand the power of those guys! Suppressing economic activity, spreading economic chaos, so that they will have to be called upon by any – Dalit, secular, democratic, Muslim ruled , kings etc etc- to get the system function smoothly! Damned those Brahmins ! (I am still looking for them in my state!)

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @Sam

    Maybe the issue is diplomacy…

    And you are rt , it not said in the Quran that we need to cover the face..in fact nothing has been said about the black overall that normally you see muslim women wearing.

    And you are absolutely justified in asking Why france should Honour the Quran.It doesnt have to you know…But it should honour its citizens rt?

    See Sam , i agree with you that Saudi Government does not give the same freedom to people of other faiths.But i would like to ask you one thing.Say someone insults you while travelling in the bus.Would you insult him back, you wont rt?Because that’s not who you are.If you do , then whats is the difference between you and him?And you are just an individual..France is a country.

    Whether the demands of Muslims are met i cant say,Whether the backslash is legitimate i dont know….But this thing will end only when the individual realizes it is not the religion that’s the problem but the people interpreting it….And you know something the greatest pity is Muslims themselves don’t know their religion.

    The Quran has always seemed to be a very scientific and practical book to me (leave the part where the we are urged to kill the unbeliever ;) )….but no seriously,its is difficult to really understand the Quran without knowing the history of each verse.So just reading one verse and saying ’see this is what the Quran says’ actually makes no sense.

    When you are a victim of islamophobia , it is not really fundoo type but the pity is the only people who can change this are those muslims who people like i and Zia cant influence.And the problem we face….(I dont know about Zia) but for non muslims we will always be “you muslims” and for the practicing muslims we will be “those traitors”.

    i am sorry if i have become a little sentimental up there but if i can make you think that maybe this is not what Islam says then hey sam…… i am satisfied…..I guess that may be Zia’s attitude too…

    @Akash..will get back to you….Sam’s answer was a little too big

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    France is right on in making this decision. Religions, especially Islamic religion, seem to have an amazing immunity from normal laws. Islam always has an excuse that they are bound by Sharia.

    France, and other Western countries, are taking these steps (“intolerance” as Muslims will label it) because they are really scared. Enlightened democracies of the West really do n ot care about one obtaining quiet comfort from ones religious beliefs. However, they are totally scared (and should be) about the vehement modern crusaders (!) who want everybody to live by 7th century standards .
    Hate is what these crazies preach, and intolerance is what they practise.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Sometimes one wonders, why can’t muslims live all by themselves in Saudi or Pakistan(muslim homeland..) and leave the rest of the world to live by their rules..

    There are 60 countries in OIC, living by muslim rules.
    But they want everyone else to live by secular laws.
    (guess why ??)

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    So bad, right???

    [Reply]

    Rahmath Reply:

    @ Ashish…

    All my hindu friends know their scriptures well(haha…i know hindu methology more than many of them though….not that they know less…i just like stories more)….All of them do pooja paat…And so do my christian friends.Knowing your religion is not a bad thing…Do you know…christians are actually more devout that muslims….but they have tact which Muslims lack.Having religious knowledge is not a bad thing.It is the way you use it which is.Remember Nobel ’s lesson.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    All your friends do pooja paath?? Gosh, what’s this generation coming to :-) ?
    Doing pooja paath is not to be confused with knowing the scriptures, though.. my wife lights a candle every evening and says a prayer.. for all of 30 seconds. She is very religious and very devout; but, she definitely knows no scriptures at all.
    What does knowing your religion mean? Is that the same as being religious? Does one lead to another?
    It is more complicated than you think, especially with Hinduism where an atheist like me also happily says he is a Hindu. Just too many ways (33 crore Gods, remember??) of reaching salvation.
    Christians being more devout.. in the bible belt of US, that’s true. Not in Europe. And, the devoutness does not translate to an all or nothing blind faith in a way that it does with Muslims.. Christians have waged war and killed infidels in the name of their religion too; but, so many years back. Hindu Kings have sacked Jain temples (I hear rumours!) but, so may years back. Muslim terror is here, and now. And, the terrorists quote the Quran, chapter and verse.
    So do the Deobandis.
    The solution does not lie in quoting Quran; if God said something, he said something else too! Krishna is a God for Hindus; but, taking him as a role model especially in personal life would be disastrous.
    What if God left no directions in Quran in some aspect of life, which ahem, his limited experiences in the Arabia of 1500 years back had not prepared him for? For example, derivatives trading or flying an aircraft or even riding a bicycle?
    Or, if he seemed to encourage slavery? Or, killing the pagans? Or, encourage multiple marriages in word and deed? (I know, especially you know, that he discouraged polygamy.. just need an opinion from Deoband or AIMPLB on this please..).. do you still love God? All of Him? Part of Him? Which part?
    These are deeply personal questions. Even if you choose not to answer me in this blog, I hope you think about them and are honest with yourself about your answers.
    Let’s worry about bringing salvation to the masses later :-)

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @ S Singh
    Sir,
    They need not. i just said maybe they could.I didnot say they should.I was trying to find a solution to the problem not just ranting and raving about it.

    “you guys”—This is exactly what i said about in the post to Sam.Sir, my guys are extremly decent.First of all my guys dont even think this much about religion.They practice their religion and are more intent to take care of their friends and family.

    Frankly speaking sir, i have not done the following ” putting bombs in the underwear, killing girls who go to school, killing people while they pray in a mosque, killing fello military men….” and neither have “my guys”.I presume you mean my relatives….But in case you mean those al Qaeeda people and those who defame my religion sorry sir i and “my guys” also regard them as idiots.The only fault of “my guys” is they are simple people and they dont even bother that some of those people are defaming their religion.

    Infact sir “my guys” would think twice before accusing others of crimes they have not committed.

    If you read the comment properly sir i was repeating the same thing,what is propogated need not be islam at all.If your sur name is Singh and if you are a sikh, you should know how painful this “you guys” is.That itself is enough to make a group mentality among people.

    We are educated people.We take the time to think of these issues…We cant be like those uneducated politicians who do all sorts of things for god knows what reasons…As anyhow we are spending time on it atleast lets do something constructive, however small it is…..

    Its like asking a christian in India why did “you guys” attack Vietnam or Iraq.What kind of a question is that?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    It was year 1986, my FYJC in pune, I asked a muslim girl why they wear Burqa. Here is transcript of our talk-
    Me: Why do you wear Burqa in college?
    She: Apne kabhi Nimbu (lime) dekha hai.
    Me: yes
    She: Nimbu dekh kar apke munh mein paani aata hai..usi tarah mard logon ko bina dhaki aurat dekh kar munh mein paani aata hai.

    I was left speechless..years after I have realised that muslim women consider themseleves as WALKING VAGINA and nothing else.

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Woooow, what a piece of creativity…………..You look like to me budding Porn star or script writer, I would encourage you to follow your this talent and produce something for frustrated sanghis!!!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I am sure it is some Muslim cleric who fed that info to that girl.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I guess, girl was inspired by your Porn star Mohammad.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Indian Jee,
    Creativity?
    Perhaps, Nimboo was used in Indian context. In europe, australia, the word is Uncovered Meat.Non-Vegetarian Context.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

    [Reply]

  • OZ resident

    This is nice article. Most people on this forum are from Hindu background and when i checked views below, what my understanding is that most people never read or tried to understand the article.
    I live in Australia and most of my friend are from multiculture areas. When we see each other the only thing comes to their mind is what media propogates in their mind. No one really understand history. First suicide bomber was Jew and then Tamils took the award.
    This terror arose afetr 9/11. Where was terror before. Why people never check why Siks were fighting after attacking on their religious place. Why IRISH were called terrorist.. How Gandhi’s were killed. How heroshima & Nagasaki mascare was happened. e.t.c
    There are so many examples in past and people forget or never want to understand that no religion on earth want to kill innocent people. They have to read the Quran not google.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr OZ

    It simply is a wrong comparison. SriLankan Tamils “suicide bombed” in Sri Lanka. No “foreign” Tamils travelled to Sri Lanka for suicide bombing; neither they exploded in other countries. No Indian Tamils or Hindus took it as their problem; they relegated it as a Sri Lankan internal problem.

    IRA committed terrorist acts in N Ireland. Roman Catholics from otehr countries did not travel to Belfast to commit terrorism; neither they did not set bombs in other countries.

    it is Muslims and Muslims only (I do admit it may be a small percentage; but their modus operandi is bringing the whole Muslim community down) who travel to distant lands to commit terrorist acts. Nobody is going to criticize if Palestinians did attacks in Israel. However, if an indian Muslim goes to England and bombs the airport there, or a Pakistani Muslim goes to Spain and bomb the train station there — there is something seriously wrong. And when 16 Saudi Arabians bomb the world trade center and kill 3000 people, something is seriously wrong. Should n”t those 16 “heroes” taken on the barbaric KSA regime/ Or, are Muslims (not majority, but not a minority either) so happy with the regimes of countries like Saudi Arabia and hateful of democratic countries?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    yes terrorism was started by Mohd.
    He was the first person to start a religion and then go occupy other faiths places.

    Can Islam quite Mecca/Medina, as they belonged to pre-islamic arab culture ?

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @ Sam….
    As you command…..This is not the rt sphere to do that…..you are rt….not here ….not blogging

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    by the way sam…i do the opposite also you know….i try to talk about it to muslims also….To try to stop them from having holier than thou attitude…..But if you think this kind of hatred is the best way to deal with it…your choice…..But it will never be mine.Bye Zia, Syed and Akash…Was a good experience…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Yes hatred is bad, unless is it izlamic.
    then they have a muslim god given right to hate the kuffar and deny basic rights for kuffars in the muslim holy land..

    please get out of your doublespeak.
    muslim hate everyone else.
    they want to occupy everyone else’s sacred places, starting with Mecca/Medinah/Kaaba..

    they occupy jewish places, and claim mohd went to heaven from there on a flying horse..

    [Reply]

  • Indian

    looks like you r muslim cos u take imspiration from life of Muhammad??

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why can’t non-muslims be inspired by lecherous mohammad?

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @ Indian….I have heard stories about him and i respect him the way i respect all great leaders of this world.I am a Muslim because i was born and brought up to be a muslim.Once you realise that i believe one’s belief in the concept of religion kind of diminishes.I am a stauch muslim ….but i believe if i were born in some other family , i would have been a staunch hindu, christian or maybe even an atheist .I believe in God but that’s it.I can defend Hinduism and Christianity with the same intensity that i defend Islam….and i do it to a different audience.

    Sometime i believe atheism is the way to go.Is there any way to ban religion???? Just kidding

    We were talking about Burkha issue but many comments are just irrational ramblings…its as if this medium is used to just pour out ones frustration and hatred .Here i realize now, they ask questions for the sake of questioning and not for getting answers.

    If sam was really for a dialogue he would have found that he had an ally in me…

    If you really want to know my inspiration , dont laugh but it is enid blyton and the hollywood movies where the endings are always happy,

    I was fortunate enough to be born in a truly secular place, fortunate enough to have the good influence of books of all kinds,fortunate enough to have friends from the three major religions and fortunate enough to have a mind which believes in contemplation and the inherent goodness in people,You see i am one of “those” fortunate people who still have optimism left in them.

    Bye sam…i did not want to reply at all…because it is not answers you seek.but maybe this one last one.
    I hope we meet one day and i hope i can convince you that not all Muslims are like the way you think they are…

    Call me a coward sam but i am getting out of here….Because if i listen to these kind of ramblings, i may fall into the trap of all this hatred myself…i have been a victim of this “islamophobia ” sam and i keep reminding myself that this is their human nature …that’s all…..But when i see educated people talk in this manner without trying to even think of looking at a issue dispassionately, that somehow drains out the good will i have…. and i am beginning to think it is a very rare thing to have though common in my place.

    And i still maintain.Burkha should not be banned…not because it is related with a religion because its the fundamental rt for the citizen to choose what they wear.full covering of the face can be banned and no one needs to give any explanation to anyone but not taking the name of a religion will be a diplomatic thing to do.

    Thats why we need leaders….who have the tact to take all their people together forward….
    As far as occupying sacred places…remember that it was the prophet’s home too.

    People occupy other places for many reasons…I still cant read about American history in a dispassionate manner because, its horrible how they treated the original Americans.And muslim’s occupying jewish places….seriously????? I thought you were well read.

    There are always two reasons for Justifying the war…The reason that sounds good to the followers and the real reason.Think…….Think……

    Take care…I hope we meet someday……

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Lot of inconsistencies in just what you wrote.

    For example:
    And i still maintain.Burkha should not be banned…not because it is related with a religion because its the fundamental rt for the citizen to choose what they wear.full covering of the face can be banned

    >So who is banning Burkha ? they are only banning full face covering. Why not write against Saudi arabia which takes away the right of woman to show face ?
    we all know why you dont write against anything Saudi does..how can you go against your fellow muslim..you can only go againts the Kufr with all the hatred..

    And muslim’s occupying jewish places….seriously????? I thought you were well read.
    > So mecca/medinah/kaabah was not occupied ?
    There were jewish people and tribes in those places long before Mohd showed up.
    Now Jewish people cannot even get permission to visit those places.

    its as if this medium is used to just pour out ones frustration and hatred
    > so muslims like you come out after every terrorist event and say “let me explain islam..”
    it is as if the victim did not suffer enough..
    your umma people are two categories…terrorists and then soft core people who want to explain “real islam” right after terrorism like underwear bomber, blasting girls schools..

    [Reply]

    Venkata Reply:

    Sam,

    I feel you have got your understanding of islam from wrong sources. beleive me i used to think like you but not now. infact before i dint think of india much BUT a muslim patriotic autodriver made me think otherwise. he kindled pride in me….pride for my country…India.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @everyone
    “….Because if i listen to these kind of ramblings, i may fall into the trap of all this hatred myself”

    Pygmalion effect?
    Hatred begets hatred. Ppl like Sam are not doing any great favour to the country. At the end of the day all they are managing to do is simply turn away muslims who might have started to question.

    I do not agree with what a lot of muslims have to say, but I try to put across my views in a more polite manner. Ultimately what do you gain if someone is hounded so much that he/she leaves the blog with an extremely negative mindset.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Syed

    Thanks.

    @Rahmat

    A fact based, observations based, behavior based justifiable dialogue is always good. Although theer are extreme views, one consistent theme that has come up, from including Zia, is the need for Msulims to introspect, adapt etc ebfore crticizing the whole world that the world does not understand them. In an earlier blog, Zia gave this challenge to Muslims only can fix the key issues affecting Muslims, that the desire and action have to come from within, a lot like the reformation …I believe this has to happen, and if not, it is going to continue to be a slippery slope for Muslims, or let me say, religious Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Rahmath Reply:

    @ Syed

    Thanks.Maybe it was stupid of me to react to those kind of comments in the first place.There are sensible people here…i should have talked to them.But the lesson has been learned.Thanks once again.

    @ Gopi Thomas

    I agree.But i would like to have suggestions on how we, moderate muslims can help.I have always felt that the problem with Muslims is they really dont know how to tackle an issue…Its either ” God will show you the true path ” or “On with the swords”(or maybe extremism would be a better world)

    When moderate muslims raise their voice they are treated with more contempt than the non Muslims…so in what way can we change the attitude.How can we help?How can we change the mentality of the people who think they are doing everything because it is the divine decree?How can non Muslims help the moderate Muslims to achieve that?I ask you questions to know your opinion.I have thought and thought and thought….But sometimes i feel i have to enter the mainstream to make a difference…..what can i do as an individual?

    Unlike political party makes decisions contrary to the mass appeal, the rejection can be shown in the next elections.But that’s not possible in the religious decisions.For eg.The triple talaq system in India(3 talaq said at the same time) has yet not been removed though it has no basis in the Quran at all.The majority of Indian muslims wanted that to be removed.But it made no difference.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rahmath,
    it is easy to say triple Talaq is not sanctioned by the Quran. Please have a ruling from the AIMPLB or Deoband or some such place in support of your Quranic interpretations.
    What I find inexplicable is why you or Zia waste time to a largely Hindu audience on this blog to tell us what Quran sanctions or does not. Should you not, first, talk to your own community “leaders”?

    But, seriously…
    Muslims need to understand that Hindus are not going to stop them from progressing.. we may not help, but we will not hinder. You have a bigger challenge from within your community and till that is addressed, fair and square, no forward movement is possible.
    Integrate, integrate… make common cause with Hindus on grounds like health, women’s rights, education…

    Secondly, what if Quran actually sanctioned triple Talaq? Would it make it alright?
    Sometime back, Syed “thereatened” to quote 30 or more verses from Quran which are extremely demeaning to women. Would it be alright to follow them?
    Sometime back, Hindus used to have multiple wives too.. I strongly suspect that about 7 generations back, my own ancestor had countless wives.. doubtless, there is some religious sanction behind that godawful practice too. So, let me follow that practice as well? What say? (my wife does not read this blog :-) ) And, should we start a movement to restore the “right to Sati” as ordained by our scriptures?
    Rahmath, you are what you are. It is upto you to decide whether you are because of your religion, inspite of it or something in between. I am in the something in between camp. Where are you?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Rahmat

    May be you can eb a catalyst, a different person, bringiing in your family, extended family, Muslim friends, their families etc into an “extended family of Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs”.. I understand you are from kerala (based on some quotes you had) – and I have used Kerala Christians as an example of how marvelously they have integrated, while still strengthening their religion, instituitions etc. They celebrate Onam, their women apply chandan and sindoor on their forehead , they are the first to organize a Kerala/Malayali Association when they get out of the state, they conduct Malayalam classes when they are in Dallas or Dubai etc etc etc..They celebrate Thrissur pooram as atehir own celebration participating in fireworks etc .You get the gist. They are not “lesser” christians because of all of these. They even adapted the traditional Kerala oil lamp, with a cross at the top insted of a pointed ****. Their Sunday service is in MAlayalam, not a foreign language. Now, I have travelled a lot in India and outside, I have been invited by Kerala associations, very rarely I bump into a Malayali Muslim. I think they are focused (I may be wrong) in learning Arabic., and not Malayalam. Little things get accumulated, creating wall, creating exclusivity, separation.

    You may call it tact, I will call it assimilation while maintaining their core religious beliefs.

    Start little somewhere. There are lots of opportunities. Start an educatio helping unit, including all kids, not just Muslim kids. Name taht organization “Vidya Kshema Nidhi” or something like that that people can understand, instead of “Noorul-Al- Salfi-Mujhiddin” etc… You get the gist.

    Sam Reply:

    We could also say the other way ..

    Why should anyone’s statements turn someone away from what they really are ?

    You are what you are at your core.
    We are just scratching the surface to show your real inner self.

    if i keep saying you are a muderer, muderer ..are you going to commit a murder ?

    by this basic test, we are going to expose the sheep and the wolf in sheeps clothing.

    If someone’s statements provide a justification for them to get turned off, you were probably that way to start with and just using this situation to morally justify your inner self..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    “if i keep saying you are a muderer, muderer ..are you going to commit a murder ?”

    Keep on saying it long and often enough to someone & and the chances that he will become a murderer and fulfill your expectations increase.

    Thats exactly what the Pygmalion effect is all about!

    http://humanresources.about.com/od/managementtips/a/mgmtsecret.htm

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Let us say Syed is a social reformer trying to do some good things, purely out of good heart with no financial motive.

    many will object to some of his actions and even ascribe some ulterior motive for any of his actions.

    As an adult who is fighting for a good cause, should he believe his opponents and give up ?

    So please do not ascribe your inner weaknesses on some statements from others
    (both good or bad… )

    so again Rahmath is welcome my view mercilessly and looking forward to frank conversation..

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @Gopi Thomas

    “maybe extremism would be a better world)”………

    Oops…that was ” maybe extremism would be a better “word”.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Rahmath
    it has been a pleasure to have you comment here; I may not agree with all you say, but I like your energy and your passion. So thank you. Yes, let’s disagree but, let’s disagree with civility and name calling.
    I doubt any of the “you people” comments here are personally directed to you.
    Something that my “ideological brother” SKS from Mumbai said sometime back was really crucial to understanding many of us here:
    –Quote–
    As for Europe the failure of mainstream parties to acknowledge or discuss the the substantive issues has allowed growth of far right parties. Since the swiss vote, we have seen a few questions (Anjem choudhary and his outfit in UK have been banned recenty) from less reactionary segments and that can only be good. If the concerns of mainstream are not articulated by mainstream voices, they would end up supporting (or at the very least stop opposing) the extremists who do. Perhaps, this is what has happened in case of swiss ban and there is a good chance that many of the comments here (incl. mine) a part of the same phenomenon.
    —Unquote—
    Rahmath, please understand, people like you or Syed are not who any one of us have a problem with. But, you folks are atypical, same as my Muslim friends are atypical.
    What is the political power and reach of folks like you or Syed or for that matter Javed Akhtar or Salman Khurshid or even Abdul Kalam? Especially when compared with even obscure clerics from Deoband? Why does PC make the pilgrimmage to Deoband and Digvijay to Azamgrah to call for a judicial enquiry in the Batla House encounter?
    We would love to engage with you; share space and more. But, that does not even begin to address the problem.
    And the problem is?
    Muslims, an overwhelming majority of them, are too obsessed with religion and what the Book says. It is this primacy accorded to the Quran, absolutist nature of their faith that the rest of the world finds difficult to deal with.
    Why is that a problem?
    The Quran is absolute truth; all of it. So, for every verse preaching amity, I can find another preaching the opposite. Yes, you can find, as I have been told on this very blog, that Christianity and Judaism (?) is no different; there are enough blood-curdling and blood-thirsty verses in all of the scriptures and misogyny is rife. But, followers of no other religion lay so much emphasis on religious learning from childhood. I do not know a single Hindu (and my family is very devout) who teach the scriptures to their children regularly, if at all. Contrast this with my friend Syed; he can quote Suras, chapter and verse and he is hardly, what you would call steeped in religion.
    How many of your brethren can survive the religious teaching from ill-lettered Mullahs who come home every evening (e.g. to my neighbours to teach their daughters) with their sanity intact? Syed grew up in Calcutta (my hometown too), that too at an age and time where no one frankly cared about your religion. How many of us are so fortunate? How many of us, have been exposed to an education which tells you to think on your own?
    Don’t bash me on my head with Manusmriti, or stray texts from stray literature. I do not know, no one in my family, friends.. no one I know.. has ever read them. We don’t give a damn.
    A victim mentality is at least as counter-productive as the Pygmalion effect that Syed alludes to. Coming to an English newspaper blog and defending Islam is all fine; but, to find the real problem, you do not even have to go to Deoband; Milli Gazette or 2circles will do. If in these fora, you get “sane advice” like not to work for a bank save as a doorman because banking is un-Islamic, then Allah can only help you.
    Raise your voice against the obsession with religion; learn to ignore it.
    I will end this long, meandering rant with a story:
    Yesterday was Shivratri and one of our maids (unmarried) wanted leave because she would be fasting (praying to Lord Shiva apparently gets you a great husband!). Our other maid told her, “yes, see my example! I prayed so hard and my husband is a drunkard!!”.
    A bit of irreverence goes a long way.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rahmath.
    oops.. that should have read.. “Yes, let’s disagree but, let’s disagree with civility and without name calling.”

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @Ashish

    The last bit was rally really funny.Knowledge shows up in the most unexpected places…does it not?

    I understand what you say Ashish but it is not possible for me to go and talk to the leaders…rt.?.it has to become a movement…Maybe god willing i will be a part of it one day.I totally agree with you that reform has to start from within.But i also mentioned that the moderate muslims have no voice.

    The only reason i talk about the Quranic sanction is because we are dealing with religious……fundamentalist Muslims.When we talk to them we have to talk in their language.If i go and say hey…this triple talak system is all nonsense…its not going to affect them a least just like telling you that the prophet said in the Quran that this is the religion for everyone to follow is not going to affect you a least.Their reaction will be just the same as yours….”why should i do that or why should i believe that?

    As dale carneige quoted…”When you go fishing you don’t hook the line with your favorite sandwich but with what the fish likes”.It is the same thing.where faith comes logic goes…..So use the same faith in such a way that one can find logic.

    The reason i use Quranic verses is ..i have read the Quran ,,,i can give you information that you can use on your Muslim counterparts.Talk to them in their language .The reaction will be better.You can make them think better.(if you want them to)

    Drastic changes are not possible ….the more drastic the steps to make Muslims leave their rigidness in faith and in the clerics…the more they are going to cling to it…..its human nature.

    its not possible to talk to our religious leaders as an individual…i know their reaction…I know my loved ones reaction.They think i am straying away from the rt path and they cling more to their convictions..Talk in a manner which will make them react positively to you else don’t talk at all else it may make your goal go further away….that’s my motto.

    I know ashish the “you guys” was not personal…but not many know that.What if a moderate muslim comes and sees these messages .These words(though no harm was meant) causes a kind of brotherhood which never existed before.Its easy to creat e this kind of brotherhood…,A keralite , a southindian, and indian, an asian….maybe someday even an earthian….

    Imagine you come to a site and see such comments in which hindu bashing or christian bashing is going on…what effect will it leave in your mind?its obvious the conclusion will be “hindu’s hate us”.I am sure many of the hindu’s hate muslims because the same thing must have happened to them.We know better.Do all?

    That’s why i reacted that strongly to the phrase “you guys”.Discussion is good…but if you imply such a kind of brotherhood….you initiate me into it unwittingly and the discussion goes waste.

    Again you know that “you” and “me” is not really you and me.

    Moderate Muslims cant do this alone.Its like the story of the the gold in the goldsmiths shop asking the iron of the blacksmiths shop why it makes a greater sound when they are hit by the same iron hammer.And the iron replies…”because for you, some one else is trashing you…for me…my own brother is beating me.The pain is more”.

    Sometimes i feel Osama ’s attack 9/11 was not for the “infidels” as he calls them ..it was for us Moderate Muslims…After that Muslims on the whole were pointed at and they did what anyone would do …They segregated….became more religious….created obsession with religion.Osama did more than kill people that day…he killed hope for us moderate muslims.

    As for where i am … i am in between…I can t and wont denounce my religion because i don’t denounce anyone else s faith too.Everything has good and bad.AS far as the religious scriptures…(any scriptures for that matter) are concerned.When i see something that i don’t agree with god…i just accept that maybe he meant something else.I am traditional enough to believe scriptures cant be wrong.it is ingrained in me…but humble enough to conclude god cannot be wrong…maybe we understood him the wrong way.

    AND you can help me spread the same mentality to others…You have no problem with me or syed…help us make more people think like us.Help us in any small way you can.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    Your post deserves a thumbs up!

    @Rahmath,
    I am not even sure whether even conservative muslims have a voice here – there is absolutely no unity amongst them whatsoever. The only time muslims ever show a semblance of unity is during elections – they vote from fear.

    Heard of the power of 1 Each person can make a difference! It can be something simple like taking a personal stand on some small thing you feel strongly about, bringing up your children free from bigotry or influencing your own circle of relatives/friends. Every little counts….

    [Reply]

  • P.Barman

    The 23 years old who was arrested at Detroit on Christmas day for carrying and igniting a Bomb in his underwear was fromNigeria and studied in UK and other western schools and not in touch with Americans in USA suddenly decided that he is taking revenge for all muslims by his acts. No Americans have ever done any thing to him, you tell me what is not monolithic in this act. I think your analysis will be appreciated and will be inciteful. Thank you.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @BArman
    Well, you might be aware that there are some 70+ sects amongst people who call themselves muslims. Most of them can be considered as totally separate from the other as they do not even intermarry, some even bump off the other for various reasons.
    Out of all these sects you have suicide bombers & terrorists from only three sects.

    Thats what I meant by muslims not being monolithic.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Barman,
    And reg that underwear bomber who blew off his b**** in the failed attempt, he does not represent or speak for me or my sect, thank you very much.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    .. especially with his balls blown off, you could add :-)

    [Reply]

  • Rahmath

    @ Ahish …I will :) ..It was a great post……..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed @Rahmath
    I notice my 12 year old has just joined a FB group “All Muslims are not terrorists and all terrorists are not Muslims”..
    I fear the future of Hindu bigotry is not safe.. where did I go wrong??

    I wanted to end this with a quote from John Irving’s “158 Pound marriage”

    “To read history, you need two lenses: one a telephoto and the other for seeing things really close .. wide-angle lenses do not work, no lense is wide enough”
    Have a great week ahead.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish, Rahmath

    While talking with my 15 yr old daughter the other day she informed me that she likes Christians, hindus, muslims & sikhs in that order.

    I did not ask her the reason. I wonder why?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Possible reasons (not all serious)
    1. She likes clean-shaven men (as a general principle guys, now.. it is likelier that a Muslim is more hirsute than a Hindu.. and no, I can’t prove this statistically or even empirically for that matter)
    2. She (like I do) appreciates the total lack of restrictions on food in Christianity (that does not explain the Sikh thing..)
    3. She is actually seeking attention.. “omigosh, my daughter might actually fall for a idol-worshipper.. what would it take, now gal? To rid you of this obsession?”
    4. She likes Ranbir Kapoor/ Shahid Kapoor more than Amir/ Shahrukh/ Salman/ Saif
    5. This actually reflects the pecking order of affection she bestows on 4 boys in her class.
    6. She is pulling your leg; or, wanting you to tell your wife, whereupon she expects all hell will break loose and she will have a lot of fun..
    … want more reasons?

    syed Reply:

    @Ahsish,

    Well you might be right, her favorite is Ranbir Kapoor.

    Or it might have something to do with her recent visit to Perth. Maybe she likes some local there. Things are getting interesting…..

  • Rahmath

    @ Ashish….

    hehe…i hope i go just as wrong with my kids as you did with your own :)

    [Reply]

  • http://nda992.blog.co.in A Banerjee

    Dear friends,
    please see this blog which has a number of issues concerning Indian Muslims. I would request you to give it a neutral reading without getting too emotional as we must have a pragmatic approach towards getting rid of this militant form of Islam which the prophet never propounded.
    http://nda992.blog.co.in

    [Reply]

  • John

    I was born a Christian, to parent’s who were ministers. I now subscribe to NO faith. Faith is believing in something in absence of proof and reason.

    I don’t care if you have read and understand all the vedas, the quran, the torah, or any version of the christian bible. In order to be a good person you have to throw out so much of each of these books (and yes, I am in religious studies, now on Hinduism) to really be a good person, at least what I think that is.

    Tell me this, how can any of you defend your faith when it goes against:

    Do not harm another human being
    Do not needlessly harm any life (non-human and human)
    Do not advance yourself at the cost of others
    Do not control, abuse, oppress, or degrade those weaker than you
    Raise up, educate, clothe, and care for strangers and friends in need equally.

    Most of these can be found in one form or another in EVERY holy book. Yet every holy book is also guilty of commanding the oposite action be taken.

    I don’t need to force my daughter to do anything, I don’t feel inclined to bash anyone’s head in with a rock, I don’t feel inclined to eat every animal on the planet (anymore). Is this not a righteous living?

    Why do religions feel the need to degrade women to half-human, without the right to do what men do? Why does every sect of every religion and with other religions disagree on so much yet still claim to “know god’s mind”. (lower case for proper placement)

    I find religious art and (some) storytelling to be some of the most beautiful things on this earth. Yet all these stories are just aspects of human nature, in all our pettiness, greed, and occasionally love. Why not enjoy this part of religion and cast aside all that chains us?

    [Reply]

  • agnostic_male

    My problem with Burqa is that it hides even the face. At least hiding your shape is understandable. But, hiding ur face !!! It’s as if the lady wearing the burqa thinks that the men around her are waiting to attack her the moment she shows her face. And, this is what hurts me. I hate someone assuming that I am so uncivilized and I am sure other men also will.

    I will give you a different analogy. Consider a person walking on the street with a gun pointed at others. He might give a reason that he is protecting himself from others. But, on the other hand, if someone distrusts you to such an extent that they wouldn’t talk to you without a gun pointed at you, would you want to interact/talk with them. As human beings, we expect a basic trust from another fellow human being. The Burqa is a symbol that the lady is not offering even that basic trust…

    May be, when the burqa was introduced, their society was so uncivilized that men would attack women on sight. But, I am sure that’s not the case with ours. As society civilizes, practices should also change. What was acceptable for a lady in 7th century Arabia may not be acceptable for a lady in 21st century.

    If you still insist that a woman has the right to wear a Burqa, you should also be okay with our right to boycott her. No religious discrimination BS should be brought up. If you don’t treat me as a fellow human being, why shd I treat you as the same ?

    [Reply]

    Unprejudiced. Reply:

    If the world had Not a man who would ogle at a woman in this 21st century there will not be a woman who would distrust man.
    Why hiding shape is understandable ? No religion urges wearing bikini..and still it’s more prevalent than burkha.. what;s the cause ??? it’s a choice.. or is it?? there could be some erotic notions behind it.. Infact there are so many distaff crimes in the bikini world “Goa” than in the conservative world..
    If bikini can be one’s right so can burkha can be.. Am not vouching for both.. but i would so much loath bikini than burkha..
    i can also draw a metaphor to counter your analogies….Gold is always kept in safe.. because it is so valuable.. and also because it ’s so vulnerable..
    You only have the right “not to see her” but you don’t have the right to boycott her..
    But the point i ponder ” There are so many exigent issues which even the french government has to address than this.. a comman man’s life is always threatened in this “21st century world” (reminded of aussie issues).. so this is not a completely safe haven.. what needs to be weeded out is the feeling of insecurity that is boiling in the minds of people belonging to various religion.. there is a sense of identity loss…. so once all this is resolved.. may be they will unviel themselves…

    [Reply]