A Good Man Fallen Among Saffronites



Those whom BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani has endeared on the way will find in his slow ride into the sunset the last chapters of a tragedy written years ago: Advani’s rise at the expense of all he stood for. He was a ‘good man fallen’ among saffronites.

This is also English critic Eric Bentley’s portrayal of the senile phases of socialist playwright George Bernard Shaw. And this is also how Lenin had famously characterized Shaw: a good man fallen among the Fabians (Shaw being a founder Fabian, along with Sidney J. Webb and his wife, Beatrice Potter Webb.)

The Fabians were a group of intellectual young men and women deeply critical of the way British society was being run. The saffronites are a group of equally critical nationalists. But nationalists — as a rule everywhere — presuppose their supremacy before anything else.

Fabians and saffronites had completely different social goals. But both men — Shaw and Advani — I think, had noticeable parallels if one compared the ‘means’ and not the ‘ends’ of their undertakings.

One wanted the rightful place for a strand of latter-day utopian socialism. The other wanted a near-utopian India where the majority community always would rightfully retain a competitive edge over minorities, especially in matters where their interests clashed. The hallmark of this supposed India was to be its lack of egalitarianism.

Eschewing the revolutionary tactics of more orthodox Marxists, the Fabians were the British counterpart of the German Marxian revisionists. Like them, the saffronites Advani honed were middle-class movers, who were taught to believe more in being directly involved with the realpolitik to achieve their goals, rather than by a bloody revolution.

Like Fabians, Advani’s approach was to reject the revolutionary but adopt intermediary ways to mould public opinion. He ‘combined an ounce of theory with a ton of practice’.

Yet the only noticeable difference was Advani’s monumental improvement of the Fabian strategy.

Fabians wanted to accomplish not through mass organization but through the selective tutoring of the powerful “few” who would lead the reforms in government. They initially did not broaden their appeal beyond the narrow intelligentsia from which they came. Advani worked both ways.

He swooped on the saffronite idea of nationalist totalitarianism and whittled it down, blunting its edges to make it more acceptable and give it enough legitimacy.

It was the narrowness of the Fabians’ appeal that ultimately led to their disintegration. I think Advani faces a similar fate, the narrowness of his appeal being evident equally among his own ilk as among those outside.

Yet, the first chapters of the Advani-esque tragedy began much later. If there was to be anything by the name of Advani-esque tragedy, it would have echoes of a Shakespearean tragedy, one that represents a conflict terminating in a catastrophe.

But Advani’s early life was not a tragedy but a pinhead of ‘mellow-drama’, as evident from his own description:

“I vividly recalled the precious tradition of religious harmony in Sindh. Temples and gurdwaras were both accepted as abodes of God and all Hindus went there to offer prayers. Hindus would join the celebrations of Nanak Jayanti and Guru Gobind Singh Jayanti at gurdwaras, where Diwali and Dusshera festivities were also held. I was completely unaware that those who wore beards and those who did not, belonged to different faiths. In fact, as far as Hindus and Sikhs are concerned, it is only after migrating to this part of India after Partition that, for the first time, I began to hear and understand that the two are different communities. It was also common for Hindus to pay homage at the shrines of Sufi saints and for Muslims to celebrate Hindu festivals. These are the pluralist samskaras (traditions) which were passed on to me as a child and have shaped my personal ethics since.” Click here

More ‘mellow-drama’ as an adult:

“However, when I joined Organiser, my colleagues said to me, ‘A dhoti-kurta is the dress of a neta (political leader). It doesn’t suit journalists.’ I have never believed that western attire is a sign of modernity. I have always felt more comfortable, in body and in mind, wearing a dhoti-kurta. At the same time, I was never dogmatic about these matters. I saw some merit in the advice given by my colleagues and started wearing trousers once again.”

The catastrophe began when Advani decided to give India three answers it always wanted. The questions:

(a) What is secularism? What is communalism?

(b) Can national integration be achieved by constantly pandering to minority communalism?

(c) Cannot Government reject the cult of minorityism?

These questions were sought to be answered by a yatra (chariot travel) from Somnath to Ayodhya.

A good man’s fall among saffronites was almost as instant as Shaw’s fall among Fabians, when one day he made Stalin his role model because ordinary masses were never able to bring a revolution and, to do so, requires a benevolent dictator.

The tragedy climaxed when Advani decided that the moral and revolutionary dimension of the Ram Rath Yatra made it comparable to the Salt Satyagraha or “Dandi march” of Gandhi in 1930.

Our tragic hero is born. Much like his Shakespearean counterpart, he makes an error of judgment or has a fatal flaw, which, along with fate and extraneous factors, brings on a tragedy.

But then a tragic hero is almost always a man of noble stature. Not just any other man, but a man with outstanding quality and greatness about him.

If Hamlet’s fatal flaw lies in his procrastination — his failure to act immediately to kill Claudius — Advani’s lay in the very dénouement of a colossal plot. The plot resolves in an unresolved “pilgrimage”. It was incommensurate with all that Advani was capable of achieving.

Here’s how the chapter tragically ends: “The pilgrimage will be over the day Ram Lalla finds his rightful place in a temple commemorating the sacred site of his birth.” Click here

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  • sanjeev

    @ Zia

    very poor comparison.

    What BJP stands for is against the minority appeasement form of the “sarva dharma sambhava”

    Their six years in power demonstrated this. They didn’t build any temple or nor they stopped the “Hajj” subsidy.

    “He swooped on the saffronite idea of nationalist totalitarianism and whittled it down, blunting its edges to make it more acceptable and give it enough legitimacy. ”

    How can you say BJP or Advani are totalitarians. What they stand against is a barbaric cult of violence (which is venomus snake ), and claims itself to be religion of peace. BJP say nothing against Jainism, Budhism, Sikhism but yes if they say against christanity thats only for their fraudly conversion of people. Actually the more appropraite term would have been they are “islamophobes”

    I think its better to be cautious of dangereous ideology (ISLAM), which will engulf the country the moment their numbers rise to significant numbers. We can see the secularism of Kashmir. Three lakh Pundits have been thrown away in your form of secularism by your ilk.

    What secular morons like arundhati roy and school did for pundits ?

    Regarding your fate thing:

    We are seeing the fate of islam. Jannat is more appropriate place for your ilk, leave the earth for lowly people or infidels, those 72 v*****s are waiting for muslims.

    [Reply]

    mhalimz Reply:

    @sanjeev
    unfortunately Human lot may they be Muslims or Hindus or anyone else just chant their sriptures
    without any understanding and pondering in its virtual reading of Shlokas and Verses.
    What sanjeev know about Jehaad even Muslims do not undersand Jehaad the word drived from Jehad i.e. endevour this is used in Urdu also as “Jaddo jehad” means ‘Earnest and conscientious activity intended to do or accomplish something’. It is cleary depicted in Holy Quraan (5: 32)}
    If anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear Signs yet even after that many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
    Hence entire religious phenomena in any community is just taken for granted without any factualities and realities related to Holy scriptures

    [Reply]

  • Sankar

    Advani challenged the system that uses minorities as vote banks and ensured that remained as a ‘minority by thinking’ not integrating with mainstream and they remained backward (vote bank).

    All geographies with is a strong presence of Islam are also conflict infested. How do we explain this?

    Hindus accept Islam as an another religion. As per Islamic belief, there is no religion other than Islam, and they are all infidels. Mutual respect is not an Islamic thinking.

    If as per Islamic view, sex outside marriage is haram, how come it promises 72 v*****s for a jihad? At least some Islamic expert clarify this as bluff and our Muslim brethern can enjoy their good life in earth instead of becoming a jehadi not knowing for sure the promised 72 is waiting in heaven.

    Coming to Advani, at least he was not a corrupt politician who exploited Islamic vote bank to get power; and then backstab and betray Muslims as most secular politicians do – day in and day out.

    [Reply]

    mhalimz Reply:

    @ Sankar All those perpetrators so called Muslims must know, that every thing on earth that Allah has created has never created it in vain. Every matter that has mass and occupies space may it be a paltry straw has some objective. Thus all races, cast, creeds, sects and religions, are Lord’s creations including a person who turned to be a Satan. Holy Quraan describes (3; 191). Our Lord! Thou created not all this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire. Those who deny this are HYPOCRITES. As far mutual respect is concerned it is 100% Islamic thinking, there is a narration related to Holy Quraan “entire humanity is a clan of Almighty Allah, the noblest of you in the sight of Allah, is the one who is best in conduct. Holy Quraan prescribes (96; 1). Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. Further it is commanded Quraan 2:256) There is no compulsion in religion. There are many more Verses can be quoted, If desired it my be quoted in future coarse.

    [Reply]

  • K

    Quite Frankly, I dont care a whole lot about Advani and perhaps therefore, find this post very difficult to understand.

    Are you giving a whole lot of back-handed compliments to Advani in a merciful way (for someone who ultimately ‘fell’) and in the very end, trying to prove what his real intentions were ?

    I dont think Advani was that great a figure to be falling from anywhere ……….in order to fall from somewhere, you need to get to some high place.

    I can agree if BJP followers count him as one of the big leaders but outside the BJP’s internal activities and political evolution, i dont think there’s much to note about Advani’s carreer – not that there is anything wrong with working sincerely for the cause of one’s party.

    The topic however, seems insignificant and very person-centric – not very interesting.

    [Reply]

  • K

    When you say ‘A good man fallen among saffronites’, you are implying that ’saffronites’ cannot be good men……in other words ‘a good man fallen among a group that,by implication, is not good’.

    In as much as ’saffron’ color represents a particular group in India, I disagree completey with your generalization.

    You can title your post as ‘a good man fallen among a party of bad men’ and I will probably be happier…..still not agree because of a certain Mr.Vajpayee but I can be convinced that he is an exception in the party.

    ‘Saffronites’ as a group includes more than just the ‘Sanghis’ .

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    The terrorism caused by the followers of the phenomenon widely labelled as Political Islam, Totalitarian Islam, or Islamofascism is and will be the defining formative events in the next ten years. Recent news about a series of arrests of Muslim terrorists in Kerala , and the revelation of one of the guy’s connection with Gilani aka Hedley shows the threat we face internally and externally. Major attacks will happen, with the covert support of Islamic fundamentalists and SIMI/ISS people in the country; mainly connected with the Islamic fringe parties (the secularists who call BJP a communal party never calls Muslim Leage, NDF etc communal parties!) If congress admn will go after the perpetrators with a singular focus and if they will round up the people here with a razor sharp focus irrespective of c;lamors of “islam in danger” , they will get reelected. Otherwise BJP will come thumping back.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Raju

    Secualrism for muslims means that other faiths accept ‘dhimmi’ status.

    If some one has guts to denounce their fascism then they will label them as fundamentalists.

    @ Zia

    The more appropriate comparison would have been between ISLAM and FASCISM/NAZISM. I find very close similarities between them. If you have guts then prove islam is not similar to fascism/naziam.

    Jai Bharat

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    The parallel with GBS and Fabians is too contrived to be taken seriously.
    Probably a more apt parallel could be drawn with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
    Like GB, LKA spent his best years as a bridesmaid. While GB drove the economy (with not a little luck and North Sea Oil), Blair reaped the harvest as one of the most durable and memorable PMs. It can be argued that LKA’s political management, Ayodhya et al, let Vajpayee and the BJP government come to power. Like GB, LKA inherited a legacy which had run out of political capital and no longer in tune with the political mood. Of course, GB at least became PM; but, without much of a chance to leave a lasting legacy or even lasting too long! I am personally happy that Advani never made it to the PM’s chair; I think he would have been a disaster. BJP’s troubles started when they failed to create a vision the common man identified with; and, worse, they had in Advani, a man who simply failed to enthuse the people. Did not enthuse me, certainly. For the first time in my life, I voted Congress!
    I miss Vajpayee. I think he is miles ahead of the jokers we have had in the recent past leading us. Advani never looked like filling his rather large shoes. His claim to fame is actually from being bracketed with Vajpayee and the spin-doctors. His Ayodhya adventure was also a movement over which he had very little control; though, it can be certainly said that he made the most political capital out of it.
    As a home minister, he was mediocre at best. I feel he would have been better off staying as party president, as an ideal counterfoil to Vajpayee in the government like Promode Dasgupta did as CPM party Chief in West Bengal when Jyoti Basu was the CM.

    [Reply]

  • Kishan

    A very confused post on the blog.That is what happens when these journalists think themselves to be know-alls where all wisdom resides.
    Is Advani a hero or not? If he is one then just because he could not win power for his party he has become a fallen hero? Did he become a hero when the dilapidated structure at Ayodhya fell or was felled? What does Zia mean exactly?
    As far as the Dandi March is concerned the Rath Yatra is surely comparable.Dandi was to liberate us from slavery and Rath Yatra was to liberate us from the slavish mindset of pseudo-secularism, which is a borrowed, hollow ideology that has not done any good to the people that it intends to benefit.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    People like Nehru and Krishna Menon were members of the Fabian Society, and zealous ambassadors of Fabian socialism. I do not understand , as many have observed in the blog, what is the connection between that and Advani’s fall or rise; and for that matter, who cares if Advani rises or falls.

    BJP’s electoral failure is its own making. The cadre loses iterest if the party does not deliver once they are in power. The BJP government did not follow up on their oft repeated goals of “one country, one people, one culture, justice for all, appeasement of none”. They did not establish a common civil code; did not cancel the separate status of j&K, did not remove government from Hindu religious establishments, kept the minority reservations, so on and so forth. They just continued the congress plan. Why would people elect a congress imitation?

    People who writes the obituary of BJP have a short memory. It was not that too long ago that Vajpayee was the only MP the party (or its predecessor) had.

    Advani should have retired five years ago and given the reins to younger operators. More importantly, they should have focused on building a bench strength of capable leaders to take over from Vajpayee (and Advani).

    Advani’s failure was a failure of inaction. Elections have consequences; but BJP did not create any “consequential” effects once in power. They could have implemented a common civil code; yes there would have been riots, but once everythingfis said and done, it would have given a better platform for the upliftment of minorities (Muslims). So, although their motto is “appeasement of none”, indirectly, they were also appeasors.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Thomas

    Do you think there would have been major riots and law/order issues if BJP acted on these? I do not think so. I believe they wasted a golden opportunity to set the right platform that would have made India a stronger democracy; with equal rights and opportunities for all.

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    Too much nonsense in that article dotted with prejudices.. So when you don’t see your garbage of demonination gelling wihthsomeone’s real face you call that mela-drama..

    Such idiots pass of as intellectual in India.. Arun Shouries comes to my mind again intellectual cowardice passes off as scholarship in Indian media.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Anil
    What about Arun Shourie? Will you elaborate?

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    What does Zia mean by “Saffronists”? It indeed is unfortunate If it is a contemptuous characterization of a group of people. Attack on ideas; not people.

    It was Muslims who started the communal bandwagon. Muslim LEague was formed in 1905, long before any other religious (including Hindu) grouping happened in india. Aligarh Muslim university was founded in 1875, thirty years before a “Hindu” university was founded. Pakistan, and later Bengla Desh were formed on Muslim communal identity based on exclusion of others.

    And now, minority is perpetuating minority based on exclusivity.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I have few questions-
    1. Who invaded India? Muslims
    2. Who subjugated native under the idea of liberating them from cruel Rajas (sounds similar to Iraq invasion)- Muslims
    3. Who imposed religious taxes on majority? Mauslims
    4. Who forcefully converted majority? Muslims
    5. Who destroyed thousands of temples (and are still destroying)? Muslims
    6. Who started Communal politics in India? Muslims under the leadership of Iqbal and Jinnah
    7. Who used terror as strategic tool to get demands met? Muslims – Direct action day
    8. Who flushed out all minorties when in majority? Muslims e.g. Pakistan
    9. Who divided this nation? Muslims (but chose to reamin in India)
    10. Who is still terrorizing this nation using all kinds of excuses? Muslims

    It is only after 1990 that Hindus have started communicating with muslims in the language they understand. The muslims should be thankful, there millions of hindus who have acted as their shield despite all the evils muslims have done against this nation. Do muslims have any shame left?

    They are not the victims, it is we non-muslims who are the true victim. It is us who tolerate muslim non-sense day in day out. You want equality in India but why don’t you treat non-muslims as equal where you are in majority. This one way respect will no longer continue. I have a feeling if muslims don’t stop playing victim drama in near future, they will find it very difficult to exist in non-muslim society including India. No one can tolerate Nazism in the garb of religion for very long. The muslims should first secularise themselves, open mecca/medina for non-muslims and then ask others to treat them kindly.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    in the post independence India, congress government has played a significant role in feeding the Muslim community with all the demands they made and by pampering in many occasions. the level of this appeasement attitude reached such high levels that india had to re-consider it ties with israel during the 1960’s under muslim pressure . the recent riots at Sangli which were instigated by the local Muslims ended with over 50 arrests and all of them mostly Hindus.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Zia,
    What do you called islamic fundoos like urself?

    LOTAS…

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    As far as Advani is concerned, I think he is just an opportunist. I think he was solely responsible for the rise of BJP and he is solely responsible for the decline as well. His logic on Jinnah and subsequent explanation defies logic. He said that Jinnah wanted secular pakistan then why did he create a nation where muslims will dominate? Why did he use violence (Direct Action) to blackmail non-violent congress?
    Advani is no different from punjabis (Vinod sharma/Kuldip Nayyar kind) who get all nostalgic about their birthplace and spew out non-sense.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Zia,
    If you call yourself liberal, please explain me why non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca?
    There are millions of hindus working in Saudi, can they have a small tiny temple next to Kaaba?
    Aren’t you demanding similar kind of concession in Ayodhya? Now you will say what evidence do you have that Rama was born there? I can also ask you similar question about your belife that Kaaba was built by an earlier prophet. It is on record that Kaaba was a pagan (as per your def. of non-semites) temple which was later OCCUPIED by so called kind hearted MOHAMMAD.

    All your so-called prime religious place are built on occupied places of worship-
    1. Kaaba – A temple snatched from Pagans
    2. Al-Aqsa – Built on ruins of Temple mount and justified using some fairy tale that Mohammad went to heaven at the back of horse. Even in hindu mythology, horses don’t fly.
    3. Medina mosque – I have not read much about it but looking at muslim duplicity, I am sure it is built on occupied places.

    As far as my knowledge of your faith is concerned, you believe in formless Allah and reject all manmade objects so why are so obsessed with Babri structure, Kaaba or the black cornerstone at kaaba.
    Why do you stone manmade pillars depicting satan? Is satan not everywhere? Why don’t you stone air?
    Why do you take up a totally different form (white unstiched robe, bald head) when in Kaaba? You mock Hindu belief in Ganges holy water whereas when you visit Kaaba, you yourself turn into Hindu and drink Zam Zam like crazy and then carry litres to India at the expense of govt?

    Islam is confused faith and I will go to the extent of calling it strictly local arabic tribal faith? The non-arabs like you are nothing but slave of foreign faith that has nothing to do with non-arab world.

    Lastly muslims keep quoting Quran selectively as per circumstance. One such example is “In Islam, if you kill one person, you have killed humanity”. Now my question is “Your Mohammad killed many people personally and got many killed. Does that mean he killed humanity many times?”.

    Stop lecturing us non-muslims and start looking inward. Reform else you will perish. No Allah or Prophet will be able to save your from wrath of innocent victims of your barbarity.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Jewish people should have a right to live and build their places of Worship in Saudi Arabia.

    They were living there peacefully until Mohd showed with his religious apartheid and declared Mecca/Medina off to Jews/Christrians.

    The fun thing, is Kaaba is an occupied territory by Muslims.
    Pagans of the whole world should unite to liberate that place and restore that place.

    The world should not let muslims be in occupation of Arab Pagan cities of Mecca

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Lastly why did Saudi Prince not pay tributes to Gandhi? He cited his religious belief. Does that mean non-muslims can flout muslim sentiments (such as not wear hijab and go around in shorts) in Saudi Arabia?
    Why can’t non-muslim pray in public?

    Is this not Nazism then what is Nazism?

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    any idealogy which is like Nazism is destined to be thrown into dustbins of history.

    It is just a matter of time, before it happens.

    Totalitarian regimes/philosophies look strong just before their hubris.

    So keep doing you work and watch for the results.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    All,

    Let us debate Advani rise/fall, BJP etc ; and not go tangential.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Why are there no articles about “secularism’s fall by accepting special muslim laws/privileges” by Zia ?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mr.SIngh,
    This article is coming from eternal victims so whether they talk about Advani or Allah, it all loops back to Islam.

    I am just questioning muslim double standard. How can they demand things from us when they are unwilling to reciprocate in same manner?

    Why is it compulsory for Hindus to be forgiving and tolerant whereas muslims are expected to be religious and pious (read fundoo).

    What is the definition of secularism for muslims?

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    LIBERAL KSA UPDATE

    Amnesty International has asked the KSA govt to release a 75 year old woman from jail, sentenced for talking with two men “who are not related to her”.

    The next king of Saudi Arabia, Prince Nayef, the interior minister, ordered 40 lashes and four months of jail for the 75 year old khafizza Sawasi for talking to her dead husband’s nephew and his business partner. The lady had asked the nephew to bring bread for her; and the religious police found it criminal hat she is talking to two men who are much younger to her.

    Folks, KSA is spending money and sending mullahs to transform Indian Sunnis to this breed of Islam..You just wait..Rajeev’s nazism is not a far fetched notion.

    [Reply]

  • Jaya

    Hi Zia,

    Please give me your email id. i would like to ask you a question but not writing here because people will distort the question itself!!!!

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    One major failure of Advani was in continuing as the party chief longer than what he should have. He should have identified a successor years ago; all hopes for the party was on Mahajan; and second tier leadership was not developed. Even the so called discipline was just an outer shell, as shown by the public posture taken by people like Jaswant.

    Modi would have done a better job of leading the party; in fact increasing the membership, drawn by the “sympathy” when he is attacked constantly in the media. They would have won more seats.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Advani is just a chappal that Zia wants to beat hindus with. You are falling into his trap.
    Advani was never a GOOD fellow for muslims. Given a chance muslims will rip him apart physically.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    FRENCH MINISTER TO FRENCH MUSLIMS:

    French Minister Nadine Morano, in a conference on national identity, has told young Muslims in Farnce that they should dress properly, find a job, and stop speaking slang. “I am not ptting young Muslims on trial, ” she said, “I respect their situation. What I want is for them to feel French because they are French”. “I want them to love France when they live here, to find work, and not to speak in slang. They should not put their caps on back to front”

    Sarzosky’s government feels that Muslims are keeping separate to themselves, they are not interetsed in France, but only interested in their religion or their concept of the religion. They are also worried about the radicalism being spread by Wahabis.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    On 26/11 last year, 10 pakistani terrorists entered Mumbai and killed several people.

    They were dangerous and guilty, but far more dangerous were the pakistani handlers, who brainwashed them, armed them, sent them to India and gave them steady stream of instructions, as we now know.

    They are more dangerous, because while the terrorists were killed or captured, these guys wont be and therefore pose a future threat.

    Almost exact is the parallel with Advani and the hindutva rioters. The people who participated in the riots, were brainwashed pawns, many of whom genuinely believed the lies that the sangh-parivar goondas, which includes Advani, Vajpayee, Modi, RSS Pracharaks, were telling them….and unfortunately, just like the 26/11 case, while the rioters may get killed or even in some cases arrested, these “sanghi handlers”, all of them murderers, still roam around as respected politicians, leaders of the VHP, RSS and other semi fascist organization.

    I strongly feel, that the civil society should simply stand up and refuse to show these murderers any respect. Expose them for what they are. Until a Sachin Tendulkar, does not refuse honors from Modi/Advani…. Until a Dravid, refuses to attend RSS meetings, ….until journalists start asking Advani and the likes directly on their face, as to why they should not be held responsible for the death of innocents which happened as a direct result of the rath yatra and the Ram Janma Bhoomi agitation…..until they ask Advani whether he thought that spilling blood for bettering his political career was murder, and if yes, why he should not be labeled one…till that time, not much will change.

    Just as nothing will change till those pakistani terror infra structures are destroyed, so also, till these organizations- the entire sangh parivar is not demolished, and rooted out of Indian society and politics, there will be no let down in riots and future Babri demolitions.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    Advani, Modi etc you referred in your writeup are leaders in a democratic setup. They will either get elcted or thrown out. Obviously the paty they represent lost its positional strength as the last Lok Sabha results shows.

    However, as you know, Modi became stronger in his state. People have given their verdict. MAny Muslims also voted for him.

    Historians will provide various reasons. Economy, stability, performance, peace etc.. Yes, peace – Gujrat is and will be one of the most peaceful states for the next forseeable future. As Obama said in his Nobel speech, there are evils in this world and for posterity stake, those evils should be confounded. Whether we agree with it or not; a Muslim menace was confounded. Historians will compare this to a “mini” bombing to US using bombing to end the world war II to end the war and eliminate the racial cleansing JApanese were doing.

    Muslims are now relocating to Gujrat in big numbers because of the plentiful jobs available; they will not venture into their “superiority” campaigns,a nd all can live in peace.

    As Rajeev mentioned., it is going to be tough for Muslims to get their way around anymore. (Hiindus also will not, in spite of their numerical strength). The ethos of “never again” is strongly etched in them. Any provoication will be strongly dealt with in the only language Muslims know of – violence. As NAipaul said, a wounded civilization is no more going to tremain wounded.

    You are absolutely right that people should question all their leaders and get answers. It is unfortunate you selected only certain parties and groups, but did not include any Muslim only parties sucha s Muslim league, NDF, PDF etc. Indian secularists consider BJP communal, but not parties like Muslim League. It was Muslims whos arted the communal split in India. Nobody can deny the historical proofs and dates.

    It is Muslims with their global terrorist ambitions standing between India and its progress. And unfortunately, it will be dealt with more bloodsheds because political aprties will not do anything to upset the vote bank and continue tpo appease Muslism by keeping them sepaarte with their own personal laws, their own Wakfs, permanent reservations etc

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Indian secularists consider BJP communal, but not parties like Muslim League.”

    Dear Singh,

    Compare the BJP to the muslims league??????? Are you serious? The muslim league has a small presence in one state….Kerala, while the BJP is the second largest party in India……

    “Muslims are now relocating to Gujrat in big numbers because of the plentiful jobs available”

    I have heard this chest thumping about the economic prosperity of Gujarat, and the popularity of Modi, whenever Modi’s communal politics is mentioned…

    You may or may not know this, but in Nazi Germany, Hitler was very popular leader, and also under him there was a massive industrial growth…in fact just like “the captains of the Indian Industry” are going gaga over Modi,
    (after all, as great philosophers who comment here have said…. economic considerations should outweigh everything else….) So also big american corporations were big fans of Hitler….. especially Henry Ford…..

    We know how Hitler is seen today….make no mistake…..thats exactly how Modi will be dealt with by future generations….

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Hitler was very much like Mohammad and was like by everyone during his time. The only difference is that Hitler was exposed and punished for his crime and MOhammad was not.
    Mohammad the medival hitler is still hero of people like you and that’s the problem.

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    Hitler comparison is ta bit oo much! Hitler organized the death camps, meticulously planned the transportation, organized medical reserach, identifie the fastest killing machines etc and exterminated 6 million people over a three year period.. Comparing the pre 1945 popultion of Germany and the killings there, there should have been 4.2 million Muslims killed in gujrat over a period of 3 years, through government organized programs. 3000 is almost zero compared to 4.2 million. It will be “belittling” Hitler if you compare a genuine grounds up reaction in response to the Muslim aggression of Godhra. to the organized, planned killings of 6 milliuon plus jews.

    You continue to say Modi’s “communal” policies. What are teh communal policies his administartion has implemented? — does his government discriminate against Muslims in govt employment? Does hsi government block constitutional freedoms of the people l of his satte? My understanding is no. Riots happened. Muslims are not fault free here; had Godhra not happened, the larger riot may not have happened. He must jhave looked the other way; while immoral, it surely is no illegal. That is why he is a good politician. Any politician will be stupid to sttand in the way of mob violence expressing hearft felt outburst; in Gujrat’s case, the emotional backlog dating back to Somnath days. It does not make it right; but that is the way it is, whether in india or in any other country..

    History will dwell on the spectacular growth he brought to Gujrat compared to the other peer states. History will record the peaceful environment compared to other tates (a “war” has to be fought for peace). There will not be a Muslim “aggression” in Gujrat for the nextt twenty years. it will be quite peaceful. Unfortunately, 3000 people in a country of 1.1 billion does not get the same tarction as the extermination of a whole race.

    So, let us not equate Modis deliberate “carelessness” to a planned, organized extermination of a whole race.

    Modi, through his inaction, has shown Muslims their own medicine – violence and fear. To some extent, Although I detest what happened in Gujrat, therer is an element in me assuring me that the killings may not be in vain if it will prevent future killings and constant debilitating scratching by both groiups.

    K Reply:

    Bobby,

    I like your analogy ……the only thing you are missing is – EVIDENCE that parallels what we have for the 26/11 attacks.

    We have phone transcripts of conversations between the handlers and the terrorists on the ground, that proves Pakistan’s involvement. If you have phone transcripts or something equivalent to that, where Advani instructs or trains kar sevak how to demolish the mosque, please share it immediately with the public. Same for Modi in the gujarat riots.

    If you dont, then please keep your trap shut and let the law take its own course.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Nice one.
    When America brings evidence of muslims involved in 9/11, the bobby types come up with conspiracy theory such as jews did it, americans did it etc.

    The standard muslim arguement for all terror strikes it “No true muslim can do such an act. It is zionist conspiracy”. e.g. Batla

    and when it comes to blaming non-muslims especially hindus, muslims never look for evidence..e.g. Malegaon.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    you don’t get it :-)
    When a Muslim wants to commit terrorist acts, he for a day, cheerfully embraces Hinduism or Judaism- which, as we all know, are religions that preach violence, intolerance and so on. Murder committed, mayhem unleashed and… back to Islam.
    This is the complete story behind the conspiracy theory you mention. And, in line with the contention that no true Muslim can ever do a terrorist act.
    Got it? ;-)

    Ashish Reply:

    Advice from Clarence Darrow, noted American Lawyer, which our secular friends have taken very seriously:

    Quote:
    “When you have law on your side, hammer on the law
    when you have facts on your side, hammer on the facts..
    and, when you have neither?
    HAMMER ON THE TABLE!!”

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @k @ Ashish @Bobby @Rajeev

    There is no Sangh or BJP to speak of in Kerala. BJP won 3000 votes In the last hotly contested assembly by-election in my hometown (Kannur). A new Muslim party, SDPI, a distant cousin of SIMI, won almost as much.

    BJP won only 5% votes in the last lok Sabha elections.

    With the arrest of T Nazeer, the purported south Indian region head of LeT , the state and the district are going through unbelievable revelations on the extent of terrorist involvements and Pakistani connections. Thirty plus people (all Muslims; a majority from my home district, with six from five mile radius of my house) have been arrested by Karnataka and Kerala police.

    In Kerala, especially in Kannur; Muslims are quite well off; there are no ghettoes as in the North; housing, schools etc are integrated; they are quite active in politics; and there is no Sangh or BJP.

    So, guys; figure it out.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    In fact much more proof exists of the involvement of the sanghi parivar brigade in not just Babri masjid blast, but guarat riots, killings in Orissa and the mumbai riots, as that of Pakistani involvement in 26/11.

    They exist in the form of taped self confessions, in the form of recorded speeches given in public, photos and videos of BJP leaders before, during and after the demolition, and in the form of the Srikrishna Commision report as far as the Mumbai riots are concerned.

    Unfortunately they wont be acted on, for two reasons.

    The first reason is that several Congress leaders sympathize with the right wing hindutva brigade, and even practice their own version of soft hindtuva. This was true even of the pre-independence Congress, which had contacts and influences of the Hindu Mahasabha.

    The second reason is that the Congress knows that its own hands are soaked in blood of Sikhs, and so if they push the hindutva terrorists too hard, they would be forced to take action on the murderers in their own party.

    So rest assured, Advani and other murderers will roam around happily with an air of respect….very similar to the respect that Dawood Ibrahim probably gets from the ISI in Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Babri masjid demolitions I mean….

    K Reply:

    The so-called ’self-confessions’ are not evidence …….thats just sensational journalism.

    No videos of ‘masjid demolition training’ exists as far as I know. Your evidence with Speeches is again a generalization. No recorded speeches of Advani instruct Kar sevaks to demolish the mosque. These are all sweeping statements that tabloids and Arundhati Roy are popular (?) for.

    Your analogy requires you to provide speeches like those of Hafeez Sayeed….where he wants to bleed India/kafirs through a thousand cuts ……..ever heard that from Advani ? Modi ?

    Your generalization to ‘Sanghis’ is also a problem and speaks of your lack of context with respect to RSS activities ……….stick to Togadia or some of those ’self-confession’ guys and a lot of educated indians might agree with you.

    I believe that Modi should be held guilty for being an inefficient or lousy chief minister during the riots. The problem though is that this is not uncommon in India (being an inefficient chief minister) !

    As far as SriKrishna report goes, I dont know much about it but if it was not like the Lieberhan report, justice should be delivered by all means.

    Bobby Reply:

    “The so-called ’self-confessions’ are not evidence …….thats just sensational journalism. ”

    aah!!

    “I believe that Modi should be held guilty for being an inefficient or lousy chief minister during the riots.”

    hmmm…. just as Hitler was inefficient during the holocaust….

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr K , Mr Boby

    Gujrat is peaceful and developing fast . There will not be riots in Gujrat for a long time thanks to the problems we had then. Jobs are being created big time; Muslims are moving to Gujrat from other states.

    So, in a sense, it was a necessary evil. However, Laws should be applicable to Mody if he is personally culpable.

    Gujrat did not have a religious riot after that. Muslims there will not attempt one; and life will be peaceful.

    The riot would not have happened if Godhra did not happen. Obviously Godhra triggered the threshold. While that should not be an excuse, political parties and religious groups incite mob violence with whatever excuse they can get hold of.

    What Godhra has shown is that the majority communities in certain parts of teh country will not sit idle and tolerate the Muslim aggression anymore – it will be more than a *** for tat;.
    Fear and violence work sometimes; although not an ideal choice..

    K Reply:

    @Bobby,

    Actually, Hitler was anything but inefficient – any reader of history will tell you this.

    He was a quite efficient in his cruelties with setting up Nazi camps etc.

    Your analogies are turning into fiction with every post, starting with the 26/11 analogy for Babri for which I am yet to hear a good justification.

    @Singh,

    I think the riots led to Modi’s metamorphosis. He was not this passionate about development before Godhra and Riots.
    By any account, the Gujarat government did very poorly in those first few days of rioting. His law enforcement machinery failed disastrously and he ought to have taken responsibility for that failure.

    But people like Bobby and others with preconceived notions have jumped the gun and are trying to get him punished for master-minding the riots. I doubt if they will ever succeed in punishing him for being the bad chief minister that he was in those times.

    mhalimz Reply:

    Dear K.
    Here is a ref. If U wish U can try, go to Google search & type TEHELKA_EXPOSE_ON_GUJRAT_RIOTS than clic search U will get every detail

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    So the whole arguement is that if muslims demolish temples (as happened in J&K, Bangladesh and Pakistan in 1992), just overlook their crimes. If they burn 54 people alive so what it was quite cold in Godhra and muslim wanted some heat. The muslims can never be wrong. If muslims destroy temple, convert hindus, it is work for deen but when some swami tries to bring muslims to hindu fold, he gets murdered. The muslim murderer is hailed as Ghazi by muslim community.

    Absolutely priceless…We don’t need 10 jehadis from pakistan to create terror in India, we have terror ideologues like Bobby to do it at home without any foreign help.

    Wah..Indian secualrism.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    nutty Jeev twin,… your “crackpottiness” is increasing it seems…. you have not been taking your daily dose of medicines it seems…..

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    i think some people are being paid to write such articles by their masters in the deserts of saudi arabia.
    this mullah boby is one such stooge of the deoband or jamaat.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “i think some people are being paid to write such articles…”

    well this is one accusation, that I cant make on you…No one in their right mind will ever pay you to write an article….

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby
    Humour helps!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    You jehadi can only abuse..you have nothing left.
    That’s the reason your *** is being whipped everywhere.

    You throw a shoe at Bush and he send down 1000 lbs bomb on you.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You see all the people involved in bombings were like Bobby, well educated but fanatics.
    I feel Bobby may be part of a sleeper cell.

    I repeat that hardcore terrorists can be handled but soft-terrorists like bobby live amongst us like commoner and are most difficult to detect and neutralise.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    why are paying attention to bobby’s posts ?

    are you going to learn anything from him or just to monitor a jehadi mindset ?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sam,
    I am just trying to show how muslims duck tough question. They start abusing you and given a chance even IIT educated muslim will murder you for asking such questions.

    This person has habit of using derogatory language against hindus but when we reciprocate in the same manner, he goes mad and starts abusing like rabid dog.

  • http://- Rajeev

    It is time that Kaaba is liberated from muslims and handed back to Pagans (Hindus etc.) and Jews.
    Muslims have no right at Kaaba.

    Can muslims prove that Mohammad flew out of horse *** at dome of rock?
    Can muslims prove Mohammd split moon with his ****?

    can muslim conclusively prove Kaaba was built by earlier prophet?

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    The present and imminent danger is not Advani or Babri Masjis issue; it is how the Pakistani turmoil will affect us.

    What happens if they infiltrate our major population centers? What if they get access to the nuclear stuff? What about the connection between IM/SIMI and Pak outfits?

    A good part of Pakistani army is in cohorts with the terrorists (LeT is their baby). And Pakistani army’s mortal enemy is India.

    Can we really rely on Chidambaram/Antony to protect us? Or, will Chidambaram run to Darul Uloom for advice?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    The current problem is not ONLY pakistan sponsored terrorism but also attraction of muslim youth towards global jehad.

    The day is not far when we will see muslim youth fighting for Taliban.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Test

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    A good example of how muslims come to conclusion about any incident-
    1. If muslims are found in terrorist act, immediate reaction of muslims is denial followed by conspiracy theories followed by vocal protest followed by violence. Eg. 9/11 to Godhra to Batla

    2. If Hindus are found in terrorist act, muslims don’t demand proof, immediatly start believing whatever comes from govt. (whom they distrust in case of muslim terrorists) and then give guilty verdict against hindus. E.g. Gujarat riots to Malegaon

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    you can see many such conspiracy videos on You Tube where Pakistani media has blatantly denied the nation’s involvement in the 26/11 attacks. they say that it was a conspiracy of Mossad, C.I.A and R.A.W. any logical argument or intiation of dialogue with any Muslim nation / faction is totally futile as the only language they comprehend is that of violence.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Dhamam, Saudi Arabia based India Fraternity Forum has sent a formal complaint to GOI that India is trending fascist and losing its secular principles by not punishing the Babri 68.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    thats what it is. ask this organisation how much secular their own nation really is. in the name of “honour” to islam this country disrespects other nations. Saudi Arabia is the worst fundoo nation in the world, even worst than Pakistan. many articles are written in Saudi dailies that how Islam is “superior” to other religions/cultures and how it will finally rule the world. GOI shouldnt hesitate to speak up these realities before this certain organisation. though you cant shut their mouth , you can at least retaliate.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    God of self less Journalism Mr Tejpal had the following to say about Mrs Sonia Gandhi, about India’s problems and solutions:

    Quote: Since we do not oppose you, we are happy that you have an extra god [Hmm]. Unquote.
    Now about India’s Problems and Solutions:
    Quote: As you know, India has so many gods only because it has so many problems. Unquote
    [So let us have one God only, which one, Read On.]
    Quote: So we are glad that you have an extra god. One more is always handy. Our gods are playful, multi-faced, philosophical. Often their moralities are slippery to grasp, sheathed as they are in the complexities of karma and dharma, moksha and maya. [So we know now what is behind the moral decadence that is India] The one you bring along, the extra one, is more cut and dried. Quite clear about right and wrong, good and bad, sin and virtue, charity and compassion. Unquote
    [More clues needed? Read on]

    Quote: Our playful gods tend to often muddle it up. But your extra one is quite clear on how this must run. In this case, we’d be quite grateful if you heed him, not for your own sake, but that of a few hundred million others Unquote
    [ Yup, harvest million souls, see he is not bad with numbers, he had reported thousands of deaths in Kandmal riots]
    Now, the greatness that extra God endows on Mrs Gandhi:
    …………In the process you have so cleverly — and beautifully — played out two key precepts of your extra god. Thou shalt not covet, the last of the ten commandments, so artfully spun as an act of renunciation that it sucked out the wind from the sails of your opponents. And Mathew 5:5, which is also Manmohan Singh 2004: blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.Unquote

    Now on to the last hope for India and its Future:
    Quote: No doubt with the help of your extra god, you have done a fine job of bringing up your son. He has humility, decorum, diligence, and he takes the long and inclusive view. We do not like the idea of dynasty, but we abhor the idea of divisiveness more …… …. Mercifully, your boy seems more in touch with the soul of India than those who try and barter deities for votes. ……….. And yes, as I bid you speed and strength, with the extra god by your side, may I make a final plea. You have given us of yourself, and of your son.
    [Now for the only piece missing] Now will you kindly also give unto us your luminous daughter. Unquote
    Source:http://tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne300509mrs_gandhi.asp

    Stings or Stinks ?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Well, with him you get secular and pseudo secular all wrapped into one. So, he says the lady has changed the contours of indian politics? huh?? The last time I checked, congress was an appeasor , entrenched in the vote banks theory, like they were always.

    And about Jawahar! Yes, he was a great man , but a “man greater than nay we know”..Oh I am puking…

    The man who professes by the poor … How they destroyed George Fernandez, a man who devoted his whole life for the poor man. Not many may know; until George F became the defence minister, no defence minister had gone to the front lines of really slippery slopes and snow clad mountains; George fernandez was loved and liked by the jawans. The rumor is that Tejpal went after him because Tejpal handlers abhored the idea that George Fernandez will team up with BJP. I do not think there is any truth about italian money etc because there is no money in Italy.

    And now Tajpal says..”politician shouls always speak for the poor man, because for the rich there is the media”..huh???

    And, unintentionally, when he talked about the lady’s hand wielding the sickle, he was bringing “Durga Mata” , whom he knows the majority will fall for. Her mother in law was worshipped as Durga Mata; and had he was a journalist then I wonder what all he would have done to prop her up.

    And asking to give her daughter for the nation?? Although we may need one more God, do we need one more politician (or whatever, ebcause nobody knows what she is good at). THIS SIMPLY IS UNBELIEVABLE .. COMING FROM THE NE W BREED INVESTIGATOR..

    Now I believe he and his fellow Mathewss are getting money from “sources”.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Keh do ki yeh jhoot hai…

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    Yup, the so called clinching proofs would have been meaningful, if presented as investigative spoofs. Although, I doubt any Channel other than DoorDarshan would have paid for that kind of stuff. If our media had even a modicum of sense or responsibility, then that so called defence spoof would have been the last time one saw Mr Tejpal and company in Public. But you see, beards, Ponytails and Right opinions do so much for you in our Secular set up, whether you are a journalist, historian or an NGO.

    About the education and tests of those who experienced secular orgasms watching those videos, what to say NO Surprise.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @SKS @Gopi

    I never thought Tejpal will stoop so low to beg for Sonia’s daughter, JAwahar Lal’s great grand daughter, to serve the country.

    Shashi Taroor wrote an article ilast year n Time magazine extolling, what else- Sonia’s virtures. He gets a Lok Sabha seat, becomes a Depy Minister. For him, it was the next step in his bureaucratic career.

    What motivates Tejpal? He remained “non-sting” during lthe last five years (until the election to put DMk in its place). Is it a ministership- I do not think so. It is money. The man is a businessman, a sharp one at that.

    What happened to George Fernandes is a tragedy. Modi (with all his “hindwata communalism” that may or may not be there) is a George Fernandes at the core; not wanting anything for himself, a man of simple life and non-influencable, non-corruptible person. Tehelka goes after two kinds – they do not want honest non-corruptible politician, because they cannot play the money game; they also do n ot want any strong anti-congress politician either.

    “India is Indira” was the rallying cry for journalists during my college days. Now the firebands seem to shout “Save Sonia, Save India”.

    I hope an investigative journalist will investigate Tejpal and his cronies.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Mao Zedong:

    “War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.”

    Obama Nobel acceptance speech:

    “The instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace”

    How similar the “peaceful thoughts” of the current “leader of the free world” and Mao…

    For the interest of people commenting here:

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107gujrat_sec.asp

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Its the same Obama that ‘liberal’ pinkos supported overwhelmingly across the world before and immediately after his election.

    Once he assumed office and realized what he was dealing with in the shape of treacherous ‘allies’ like Pakistan and China, he had no choice but to continue Bush’s policies for some more time.

    I really hope US wins the war decisively and destroys all forms of terrorism, including that from groups directed towards India. That is the only chance for 26/11 victims to get real justice.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “I really hope US wins the war decisively and destroys all forms of terrorism”

    how about the ones the US commits?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    US is only retaliating. Terrorism is sole business of your community.

    Bobby Reply:

    nutcase,

    you might be interested in this news,

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6960182.ece

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    It was 20 Muslims who carried a plane to the world Trade Center and Pentagon. These Muslims were the products of hatred taught to them in their madrasas, and guided by the terrorists located in the lawless Afghanistan, with support from Pakistan. Therse terrorists are part of the worldwide Muslim terrorism you see all over – India, yemen, KSA, Egypt, Europe, Africa..

    These terrorists have to be dealt with by force.

    If US has committed any crimes, it is not by any design, but an unfortunate byproduct. While Iraq ended up with a large number of casualty, it was not their intent to bomb many people. Well, It is worth if Iraq flourishes asa democracy and if it will bring democratic changes to that part of the “lost world of Muslims” . If not, it was a terrible wastage of money and people.

    US, Euripe, India and any freedom loving peopel should go after these Muslim terrorists with full force. Muslims know only the language of force and violence, because they are bred in that. They know only US bombs, not US compassion

    K Reply:

    If you are asking the question as an Indian, I would respond with this song from Quick Gun Murugan – ‘Kyon Keeda hai aapko, kyon peeda hai khaam kha ! ‘. Be Indian and worry about Indians first, lose the crocodile tears for people who have knowingly or unknowingly created safe havens for global terrorists on their own soil.

    If you are asking as an ‘Arundhati’ type human rights activist who has no accountability towards Indian or American citizens and doesnt want to think from that perspective, then I’ll let you blabber.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Rajeev
    Verdict against hindus. You found only Gujarat riots and Malegaon?
    Are you trying to whitewash hindutva crimes?
    Seems you have deliberately ignored the mountain of evidence which was produced about involvement of Hindutva terrorists in 26/11 and Mumbai Train blasts. I had in one of the earlier posts given links also substantiating these.
    Now even Kasab has confirmed that he was only a Bollywood aspirant, caught be crime branch well before 26/11.

    In fact, currently some secular Journos are investigating the true conspiracy behind Godhra Train massacre also. Will Update.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    thats what it is. ask this organisation how much secular their own nation really is. in the name of “honour” to islam this country disrespects other cultures. Saudi Arabia is the worst fundoo nation in the world, even worst than Pakistan. many articles are written in Saudi dailies that how Islam is “superior” to other religions/cultures and how it will finally rule the world. GOI shouldnt hesitate to speak up these realities before this certain organisation. though you cant shut their mouth , you can at least retaliate.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    it was reply to Raju Kurien, but got posted here

    [Reply]

  • K

    This should make the pinkos and human rights activists happy -

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Delhi-Court-acquits-suspected-Hizb-e-Islami-militant/articleshow/5356366.cms

    In my opinion, this is exactly why fake encounters sometimes become a necessary evil.

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    Pakistan court orders ears and noses to be cut off

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8425820.stm

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Well, they think that the terrorists will disappear if they introduce the Sharia law..

    On another note, a large n umber of Muslims in India will gfavor laws like this. You know the rape case where the father-in-law raped the daughter-in-law and the Sharia elders ordered the father-in-law to marry the daughter-in-law..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    A little less religion, more secular education and more shared spaces with commonsense human values…
    We are all a product of many identities; some shared and some not. So long as each of these identities are “negotiable” and evolve with the demands of the modern times, and that includes the religious identity, our children will have a future worth having.
    I did not know of this case (FIL raping …) but, the police should intervene, the civil society should intervene (did they?) and put the bunch of elders in jail and the FIL should get a taste of secular justice. Let there be a riot; what is one more in this country?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    Then you will hear “Islam in danger”…..

    mhalimz Reply:

    So what? what is wrong in it, must not be a severe punishmen for such atrocities?

    In my opinion all these blogs are good for nothing. These are just for heartburning, rancour, Blasphemy to each other’s Religion, sacrilege and the end is just …..DUD!

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    Sadly, you are wrong. Again. It won’t be Islam in Danger, it will be Secualr Fabric of our constituion, the Composite Culture of our land and so on.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Well, our secularists will not allow “Islam to be in danger”….

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @ Ashish
    “A little less religion, more secular education and more shared spaces with commonsense human values.”

    Indeed, that is where we are headed, i.e. If you get your definitions right. For now, we may have to live with some of the minor irritants like the Sangh Parivar and people like Dr Subramanian Swami and sometimes someone from our Judiciary may play spoilsport. The reason for mentioning Dr Swamy and SC in this discussion are related to some solid examples, which we will do well to take note of. The Good News is that they are weakening (even dying in some cases), and soon we Shall have the “Country Secular”, where we shall have many entities owned or sponsored by the Country Secular, refusing you a job because you don’t have a Sharia Degree, (from suitable Governmental Instrumentalities, on the lines of West Bengal’s ministry of minority education, Madarsah commission, madarsah boards. Or we may have some arrangement with Al-Azhar or Madeena University, for certifying our job eligibilities). Dr Swamy has unfortunately challenged GOK’s decision to set up an Islamic Bank, thereby depriving poor Indians.

    The Country Secular where, Governments shall pay specified Zakat Levy, in accordance with the terms and subject to the conditions contained in Sharia Law, before accessing their share of Profits from the Bank. (This one in my opinion should be the Gold Standard for Secular States)

    But don’t be disheartened by the minor obstacles like Dr Swamy and his court cases. Neither are his cases unique nor are the Secular Standards challenged by him. He has filed many such cases, one example worth noting is that of a Panchayat in Tamilnadu. See the details at http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Consider+Kilvisharam+panchayat+de-merger:+SC&artid=cA6Tm5PQ/rE=&SectionID=vBlkz7JCFvA=&MainSectionID=fyV9T2jIa4A=&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO

    Similarly, for Qualification criteria based on Sharia we have good systems running in WB and Bihar. The Bastions of cutting-edge Secularism. Take for example the Madrasah Board and 100’s of Madarsahs largely funded by state (incl. Teacher’s salaries). Yes of course, barring subjects like Islamic History and History of Islam, text books prescribed are same as that of WB board and Religious content is hardly 15-20 %. (If you are familiar with the concept of Shudhoo History that is taught in WB’ other schools, you might be wondering what else needed to be shudhified before being taught in madrasah for teaching Islamic History or history of Islam. )

    Don’t forget that these madarsahs are open to all students and so are the teaching jobs. The system works on a Desirable Qualification based preference. (For e.g. when you have two candidates, both qualifying in the written test, (i.e. Scoring above the min. specified marks), then, the person having “Desirable Qualification” will be Preferred. Desirable Qualification stands for Knowledge in Islamic Studies and Culture. Then there are some posts where one of the eligibility criteria is having passed “M.M. held by WB Madrasah Board” AND no equivalent exams probably don’t exist or are not needed.

    Similarly, examples of judicial intervention, when SC held that offering Sanskrit language as elective is not Communal, in response to a petition where HR ministry, GOI was a respondent, or the above example relating to Tamilnadu.

    So nothing to worry, Hum Honge Kamyab. Very Soon

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS @
    Well, this is what secularists (and communists) ahve done here in kerala (by now you may know about the Pakistani connection, Madani-Sufiya, leT connection here, etc etc– this place will beat Kashmir soon!)

    - Islamic Bank flaoted with keral a Govt money
    - All Arabic and other teachers in madrasas eligible for pension (I am told the Sanskrit teachers in private schools are not eligible)
    - Arabic elocution, compoisition, and debating contest in State Youth Festival along with Englisha nd Indian languages
    - “Arabic universities” that gives ul ulma and zl-uhl and mitr-khasim etc degrees
    - Experts from KSA participating in conferences on womens rights and fundamental rights
    - Organized protests implying the mainstream newspapers of yesteryears – MAthrubhumi and Manorama – are communal because they report about Islamic terrorism and tey MAdani and his wife before the coutrt has tried
    - Suppressing the inquiry on bomb blasts because they did not want to upset teh minority..(now they ahve to act ebcause Karnataka police arrested all these guys)

    The good news is that Congress seems to keep away from teh Muslim terrorists for now. Marxists are still coddling because without Muslim votes they acnnot come back in power in the next elections.

    It is Allahs own land…

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    It is perhaps not an accident that the states of Bihar and West Bengal, quoted by SKS are shining examples of all round prosperity and development.
    There is a lesson in this; these are truly Allah’s beloved states; and those whom Allah loves as his own, Allah takes to his bosom soonest..
    Bye, bye birthplace…

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    It actually is getting better, see here:
    “A very basic knowledge of Islam and Arabic will be a part of the course structure of even engineering and science disciplines. Even in the IITs, the students take up one foreign language. So there is no harm in talking Arabic, which is spoken across 22 countries,” said Syed Shamshul Alam, the vice-chancellor of the university, who was once the head of department of mathematics at IIT, Kharagpur”.

    The University in question is ALIAH university, a minority University. (Not mentioned here is the fact that course like MBA, Journalism, BSc. Physics etc. have also been deemed worthy of same respect)
    Remember how our LIBOSECIs and Media went hammer and tongs when Dr MM Joshi introduced a separate degree in astrology? Of course there was a cost but otherwise it was entirely upto the individual’s sanity (or its lack ) whether to go for that astro degree or not
    This in a country where an Individual had to knock at the doors of Supreme Court for having Sanskrit (the Language, not hinduism studies) as an elective!!

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/aliah-university-merges-islamic-studies-with/474736/

    India Secularism Rocks

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    What was the case about Sanskrit?

    So graduates from Allah University will not get jobs. Then the secularists will start clamouring again..

    I see a two forked system very soon — all these Allah Univ types getting 30% in goovt, and all the private sector jobs going to the good universities.

    Why, oh why, our secularists want to destroy this country? Learn chinese, Spanish..Why Arabic??? Kerala has Arabic in almost all colleges as a second language now.. Evers ince they started this, Kerala kids getting into IAS etc have gone down significantly. There was atime when a large number of selections happened from kerala applicants.

    [Reply]

    Pappu Varkey Reply:

    Arabic is very important language in India both cultural and economical sense. Not only in south but it is extremely popular in North India too…

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    I was looking for this video on You tube for a long time. Thankfully some one has posted it. The famous documentary on the Ram Janma-Bhoomi movement. This is an award winning documentary-”Ram ke Naam”, by Anand Patwardhan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCNMoYskw5k

    I think every one who has not watched it, should do so.

    Few points I would like to make. Its always asked of muslims, to prove that they consider themselves Muslims first and Indians later. The question is, do Hindus do so?

    Certainly not the Hindutva terrorists and their sympathizers. Its well documented now that during various riots in Mumbai, Gujarat and other parts of India, several hindu police and administrative officers were completely communalised, and acted against the Indian constitution, and were behaving not as Indian police officers, but as police officers of a future “Hindu nation”.

    While the muslim leaders have openly said that on the RJM-BM issue thet are ready to accept the SC verdict EVEN if it goes against their position, NO VHP OR BJP leader has ever said so. In fact L K Advani, along with other hindutva nuts have always maintained that their faith is above the Indian SC or even the Indian constitution, and that “Mandi Wahin Banayenge”…no matter what the Indian Constitution says.

    So for these hindus, and these are powerful hindus, Hindutva is over and above Indian constitution. This is worth remembering in this entire debate of how some muslims consider Islamic rules above Indian constitution.

    Further, while its claimed that Indian madarsas are getting foreign funding, fact of the matter is that so do the hindu terror organizations, the VHP, Bajrang dal, etc…mostly from NRI communal a s sholes in the US, who though they want secularism in the US, where they are a minority, but support the communal agenda of the VHP and BJP, and want to make India into a Hindu Nation.

    This money which funds the VHP goes into funding brain washing cadres leading to state sponsored riots, as in Gujarat, or supporting causes like demolishing the mosque in Ayodhya, and trying to build the temple there, or in mass conversions by force carried out on tribals, as in Orissa for instance…as well as killing nuns, priests also, the spectacular example of which was the burning of Graham stains.

    Why these double standards? Why a refusal to see the similarity in the mentality of the Muslim fundamentalists and the Hindu fundamentalists….Simply because these a s s ho les, consider themselves, (Upper caste Hndus) to be the owners of this land, on which muslims and also lower caste hindus are staying as tenants.

    That not surprising since their inspiration is that Nazi sympathizer Golwarkar….who according to Ashish, later “disowned” his own work….how sweet.

    Of course this is only true of the nuts supporting the terror organisations of the VHP and Bajrang dal….most hindus like most muslims, just want to get on with life….

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    yawn… actually YAWN..

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    Gujrat will remain peaceful devoid of any religious fights for a long time to come. Sometimes wars are fought to create peace, like the scond world war. The 2002 riots, in a sense, has set the foundation for a lasting peace for the nxt 100 years. No Muslim will dare to start a Godhra or even smaller nuisance attacks; and Hindus wont have a reason to attack Muslims in the absence of any provocation.

    So, in your analysis, is Mrs Gandhi an upper caste Hindu? Mayawati? Karunanidhi? the late Dr Reddy? Lalu? So, who are these upper caste Hindus? How many of them get elected and form ministries?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Gujrat will remain peaceful devoid of any religious fights for a long time to come. Sometimes wars are fought to create peace, like the scond world war. The 2002 riots, in a sense, has set the foundation for a lasting peace for the nxt 100 years. No Muslim will dare to start a Godhra or even smaller nuisance attacks; and Hindus wont have a reason to attack Muslims in the absence of any provocation.

    S Singh,

    I dont know how to react to such vulgar statements. You realize that your statments put you in the same category as Bin Laden and Babu Bajrangi?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    It is a fact (at least for 8 years) as well as a most possible scenario for the future. I am not condoning what happened; however, whatr happened is preventing future happenings. To some extent, it is quite similar to dropping the bomb in Hiiroshima to end the second world war, or a war in Afpak to destroy Al Queda and Taliban.

    I firmly believe (not that I endorse) that there would have been many Godhras and many scratchings had the big riot not happened. Gujrat is peaceful and will remain peaceful for a long time. I do not think any M uslim leader will exhort violence because it will eb a communal suicide if they attempt another Godhra.

    So, it is good that if the riots resulted in a long term peavce and stability . I do agree it is unfortunate that it had to happen this way; but such are the laws of crowds.

    I do not think stating my assessment of outcome does not make me a Bin Laden. I do not think it is avulgar statement; but a statement of truth.

    K Reply:

    @Bobby,

    “While the muslim leaders have openly said that on the RJM-BM issue thet are ready to accept the SC verdict EVEN if it goes against their position, NO VHP OR BJP leader has ever said so. In fact L K Advani, along with other hindutva nuts have always maintained that their faith is above the Indian SC or even the Indian constitution, and that “Mandi Wahin Banayenge”…no matter what the Indian Constitution says. ”

    - It is tricky to claim that religious disputes should be adjudicated by the courts but in this particular case I agree with you – All parties should agree to go with the Supreme court verdict. Your claim that muslim leaders have agreed to abide by the SC verdict is hollow. The fact is that this is their only hope. I believe that they will react negatively (and violently) to any verdict that goes against their stand on this issue. With the court verdict, it is likely to be a lose-lose situation for India.

    “This is worth remembering in this entire debate of how some muslims consider Islamic rules above Indian constitution.”

    - It is all a matter of proportions – what % of hindus think this way vs. what % of muslims ?

    “Further, while its claimed that Indian madarsas are getting foreign funding, fact of the matter is that so do the hindu terror organizations, the VHP, Bajrang dal, etc…mostly from NRI communal a s sholes in the US, who though they want secularism in the US, where they are a minority, but support the communal agenda of the VHP and BJP, and want to make India into a Hindu Nation. ”

    - If you have data to back this up, that would be good. Hindus in the US funding VHP’s radical activities ? I havent heard any such report actually. Your underlying assumption that funding madrasa education is analogous to funding VHP’s illegal actions is also inaccurate, in my view.

    “want to make India into a Hindu Nation. ”
    - Please dont talk about the concept of ‘Hindu nation’ without understanding what it really means or rather, what RSS really means when it talks about the Hindu nation. Your understanding of ‘Hindu’ or a ‘Hindu nation’ and their concept of ‘Hindu’ is not the same. It is very likely that they have exactly the same vision for India’s future as you – but you call it ’secular’ and they call it ‘Hindu’ because for them a ‘Hindu’ is by definition ’secular’. Now please remind me of the riots and other violence so I can remind you that no rioter who riots in the name of hinduism is actually a hindu. Same goes for any other religion.

    “Why these double standards? Why a refusal to see the similarity in the mentality of the Muslim fundamentalists and the Hindu fundamentalists….Simply because these a s s ho les, consider themselves, (Upper caste Hndus) to be the owners of this land, on which muslims and also lower caste hindus are staying as tenants. ”

    - Not really – the religion that is more commonly associated with anti-social acts is guaranteed to get more brickbats. It is pure maths, nothing else. And please lose the ‘caste’ stereotype – this is 2009 and people on this blog are (probably!) more educated than those that would use the ‘caste’ card.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    Here is the link to SC judgement on Sanskrit and communalism

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Islamic terrorism update: attempt to blow up plane:

    One Abdul Madad, a Muslim jehadist, was held up by other passengers when he tried to explode a device in the NorthWest flight to Detroit. While details are coming out; it would have caused the death of 250 people, had it succeeded.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Another Good Man Falling?
    Chidambaram equates Jihad with Terrorism!!
    Even worse he claims Hindu Terrorists are copying Jihadis!

    http://twocircles.net/2009dec24/chidambaram_equates_jihad_terrorism.html
    How can he do that, the right to say that is exclusively for the army of the faithfuls who can blow up every unislamic living organism into scattered atoms of dust.
    “Oh Poor slaves of Material, what they can do, when they receive huge funds and orders from their Zionist-Crusading masters Muslims must avail this opportunity to raise awareness about Islam and sublime position of Jihad in Islam in our society”

    He must apologize and resign. India’s secular fabric and composite culture are under threat!!

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @SKS,
    Thanks for the link. More interesting, as always are the comments after the post. Truth hurts…

    PC obviously thought his pronouncements were safe from public domain behind closed doors, but, TwoCircles was there!

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    On Sanskrit issue I missed the link.Here it is
    http://www.ifih.org/resourcessupremecourtonsanskrit.htm

    @Ashish
    It might not have been a public chat. That does not make any difference.
    You are not permitted to do so even in your dreams.
    Although, I would be surprised if he does not apologise for this or may be another big minister would have to reiterate, no religion permits this, Islam certainly has nothing to do with it

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    just a correction.. it is not true that no religion permits terrorism, actually it is immaterial. Only material TRUTH is Islam does not permit terror acts.
    There is a lot of evidence, as you know to link other faiths (including a certain sorry paganistic collection of rituals which masquerades as a religion) with atrocities against fellow humans including terror acts.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    The French President has started a series of “townhall” meetings on what it means to be “French”. The Islamic violence two years ago, as well as their insistence on hijabs , burqua etc has touched their secualr nerve. Now the ponytaiilwallahs are wondering something is wrong, all the talks and feel goodies has not made the majority of Muslims think like French, act like French … Now they feel these mosques (built with Saudi Arbian money) instead of being a place for prayer are breeding grounds of separatist ideas, violence.

    It will be inteersting how this narrative rolls out.

    I am glad that secularists there see a threat to their lifestyle!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Happy new year to all!

    Let us hope 2010 will be good for all of us,

    And, let us hope Chidambaram does not backtrack from his statements on Jehadis.

    Look forward to continuing our discussions, and hopefully solving some of them in 2010

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    happy new year to all Indians over here. hope , this decade India doesnt make an @$$hole of itself in the world stage as it did the last decade.

    [Reply]

  • mhalimz

    In my opinion all these blogs are good for nothing. These are just for heartburning, rancour, Blasphemy to each other’s Religion, sacrilege and the end is just…… DUD

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    The problem is not with the blogs. Blogs are meant for discussion and debate. The problem is with persons who stick rigidly to their stance and refuse to view a problem from a different perspective. It is then that a debate deteriorates to the level of name-calling and venom-spewing. And that can happen anywhere, not just on blogs.
    The answer to handling such persons is simple…ignore them, let them rant all they want, that’s all they are good for.

    [Reply]

  • http://gmail raman

    @ Zia :
    look at the number of comments and you can easily conclude that there’s no end to it. but yes when i read your profile i thought you are one of those learned people who try to find a way out for the problems that could not be solved due to lack of knowledge and exposure in the mass/majority(majority here z not hindus but the ppl at large,dont get your adrenaline started) but reading your post sealed all my hopes, because either you are just another fanatist in the garb of an openminded human or another bad example of the media writing inflammatory comments just to get famous. why dont you try and prove the hindus wrong for once and do something to prove that a muslim in power(being heard is the best form of power to me atleast) also wants the good of the nation for a change. instead all you ppl do is try and prove your ground, just go through the replies, i dont think you can answer even half the questions put forward. for once try writing something secular and see the respose, why doesn’t secularism make u happy?? i am against harping on the problem, i rather waste my energy on finding solutions. it takes two to tango dude. n we have been standing on the dance floor for ages, waiting for you to take the step!!

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_URSXATBEMZ7HUAB3OH36PLYWDM Ashok

    There is no justification for inordinately delayed deliveries and humongous cost escalations. In principle there should be no hesitation in encouraging private shipyards to share the burden ( pie ? ). As far as competing with China is concerned, we should be realistic in dealing with a nation whose economy is three times larger.

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/AapChutiyeHain Aap Chutiye Hain

    The Old will die and so will their rituals which don’t make sense to the generation which has the power. And the newborns will grow up thinking of us as the fucked up generation. Time is probably the most serene concept ever devised.

    [Reply]

  • Darshana Thakur

    Sorry, I don’t agree at all. You have missed the point altogether. Try to understand it from the alternative perspective, of a Dalit or a non-upper class urbanite. I read this article and felt it resonates
    http://www.anindianmuslim.com/2012/05/cartoon-controversy-belittling-dr.html

    [Reply]

  • Darshana Thakur

    Sorry, I don’t agree at all. You have missed the point altogether. Try to understand it from the alternative perspective, of a Dalit or a non-upper class urbanite. I read this article and felt it resonates
    http://www.anindianmuslim.com/2012/05/cartoon-controversy-belittling-dr.html

    [Reply]

  • Kris

    Excellent points are made ! Well thoght through.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I wish this is just someone’s blog instead a reporter’s article, because it doesn’t sound very wise. There are bigger countries who try to contain China, so I guess India does not have to sweat about this idea. Why don’t Indian people focus on their own development instead of focusing on being the big leader, a mentality got them into the 1962 war? I guess that’s the biggest lesson India should learn from the war.

    [Reply]

    anil Reply:

    India cannot even contain its corrupt politicians (rather it is contained by the corrupts) and it now wants to c o n t a i n China! This guy must be drunk when wrote this or watching too much Bollywood movies for inspiration in life!

    I am 1000% sure China would not even bother to respond to this considering children are supposed to behave in childish manner!

    This is more of a story to go into Children book rather than appear as an article in any respectable journal!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And China has no corrupt leaders right ?

    How much does trolling for the Chinese communist party pay ?? It must pay so well if you can orally defecate so frequently without even countering a single argument with logic or facts.

    [Reply]

    dasg Reply:

    Mao’s son, daughter and grandson are not running communist party. Despite one party state, there is more democracy and severe punishment for corruption than India.

    Anonymous Reply:

    LOL nice try but unfortunately for you, we in India operate on facts.

    The difference is NOBODY voted for Mao in the first place, while Nehru was voted in 5 times!! And how can there be “democracy” in a one-party state when the “demo” can’t vote ? Even Hong Kong is a sham of a democracy compared to any city in India.

    Unlike China, Indians don’t need “patriotic education”
    camps to teach us how the “ruling party” is so great. If “severe” punishments for corruption is so effective how come Chinese government officers are hiding in US embassy afraid for their lives ??

    Sorry, but your arguments are nonsense.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The reason Mao’s son/daughter/grandson are not running the communist party is because unlike Nehru, Mao spent most of this time with prostitutes than with his wife.

    Anil Reply:

    Yes, they have corruption problem too but they do address that quickly and swiftly. There is no society or country in the world which does not have corruption but all that matters is how one addresses it. In India’s case corruption controls the leaders where it should have been the case other way around!

    (And yes they have other problems too but being wise and sensible they are slowly moving toward freeworld – just in case you want to ask that questions again).

    Anonymous Reply:

    If “justice” is simply catching one corrupt official and executing him publicly like some dictatorship , then sure they are “dealing” with corruption but it isn’t “justice”.

    But if like a free and civilized society that through the popular will of its people chooses to address corruption like the Anna Hazare movement is something China has “replicated” or implemented then they have been keeping it a very good secret!
    LOL, yes China is so “wise” and “Sensible” that even Chinese government officials are escaping China! How many Indians are hiding in the US embassy escaping India? ZERO!!

    kavi Reply:

    No need to hide for Indians anywhere as there is no one who would question them? India is a banana republic you can get away with just anything! Do not try to be righteous, India is a hell hole, do not live in a denial, nothing can be done about it, no matter how the Indian literate dummies think.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes for the mentally challenged Communist fruitcake – India is the banana republic while the worlds largest open air prison where people are burning themselves alive because they can’t live in that hell hole is “paradise”. Tell me, do you get paid to knuckle pound such rubbish or are you just so far removed from reality that you would do this for free ?
    The only denial here is by trolls like you who are trying desperately to prove that China is “democratic” and “free” ! IF it wasn’t so ridiculous I would pity you!

    anil Reply:

    In a ideal world what you say is right, provided, yes provided there is a link between what is written in the book or even in constitution and what is followed. But given the status India is in where aspirations and legitimate rights of people are thwarted (not much better than in communists countries) by the mafia disguising as upholders of democracy, anything must be better than this and people deserve some change. Imagine a burden one is creating on humanity with 1 billion people who are automatically going to be a drag unless the course of direction is changed and they start breathing fresh air letting others do the same. I mean if it continues like this no one but anti-socials and terrorists will reap the most of the benefits of chaos simply because terrorists will be more determined then those who are opposing them and they will bought out in the race (it is probably already happening in India directly or indirectly).

    Anonymous Reply:

    Clearly, your knowledge of China is severely limited if you are going to make such ignorant statements.

    India may not be perfect but compared to a nation like China, even an Indian Dalit beggar enjoys 1000 times more rights and dignity in the eyes of the Indian government than even the richest Chinese businessman does in the eyes of China’s government.

    Not even the poorest Indian would ever agree to live in a repressive society like China no matter how much money you pay them – this is why even today Tibetans are escaping to India. And not just Tibetans, followers of Falun Dafa, artists like Ai Weiwei, even a blind man like Chen Guangcheng have tried to escape China and openly criticize their government’s repressive polices that see their people as slaves to exploit for the pride of the Communist party. At least in India, people have legitimate rights that are guaranteed by the constitution, upheld by the courts and bound to the government – in china no such things exist. The government in China can pass any law, seize anybody’s home, force people to live anywhere it wishes and arrest/detain anybody for any length of time without charge!

    To compare the two systems is simply ignorant of all the facts. India may not be perfect and may not be orderly but it is free and it is far more respectful of its citizens than the PRC ever has been!

    The best thing about India is that if you feel that something is wrong, you have the power to change it instead of simply complaining on a forum. You can campaign for change, you can stand for elections and you can enact policies that you believe are right within the bounds of the law. In China, anybody who questions the legitimacy of the Communist party is thrown in jail never to be heard from again.

    serenity Reply:

    omg..dont compare india to china at least…i cant believe it india being a democratic have left with nothing like democracy..n bro if u believe in facts and figures u can check it out the dam-breaking figures of molestation, rapes,abductions,riots n CORRUPTION…our country is on the peak of declining…china is one of the advanced n developed nations full of justice,law n strength..they dont decieve their citizens by doing scams,disorder in law,,,n a long list….how many scams u heard of them…they dot afraid of the corrupt arsed nations like india…globally indians are disliked nowadays just cus of the illiterates,greedy n brainless politicians mass…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Have you checked out the figures for crimes in China bro?? Just because you see big buildings and highways doesn’t make a nation a “developed” nation when people still can’t own land or move freely insider their own country!
    LoL full of justice and law ? You mean like how Bo Xilai was so “law abiding” ? Or how Ai Weiwei is treated so “justly” ??
    Just because you are ignorant of the “scams” of China doesn’t mean everybody else is – please do some research on Chine before blindly accepting Chinese communist propaganda.

    First make Facebook and Twitter available legally in China, then tell me how “developed”, “just” and “law abiding” China is!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Save the wisdom from China is for the Chinese!

    Dealing with China is an important part of development in India because Chinese are part of the problem as far as Indians are concerned. China’s aid and meddling in Pakistan and Kashmir, its loitering in the Indian ocean and its attempts to set up ports around India are antagonistic. For India to progress, it needs to deal effectively with China’s antagonism. And this reporter correctly states how the Indian government is being meek to China’s tantrums instead of forging ahead irrespective of China’s concerns and building alliances with SE Asian nations, missile technology or indeed dealing with Pakistan, separatists in the North Eastern hill tribes, the Tibetan issue, etc.

    [Reply]

  • anil

    [It’s time India took steps to contain China]

    Isn’t this toooooooo big a talk to fit into a toooooooooooooo small mouth?

    Try to be realistic just f a r t i n g will not give one enough power to rise into the air, man! Sorry I could not find anything else to compare with.

    [Reply]

    sanjeeb Reply:

    what do u mean….ur comment is vague ……pl be clear to start a discussion……

    [Reply]

  • H.Mani

    India is ditering soft power.It is waiting in the hope nothing bad is going to happen soon,so there is no urgency.It also does not want to provoke China by overt way of kozing upto USA,& thinks if China attacks,USA in its own interest will come to India’s rescue,there is validity to that thinking,but that is not policy,it is hope,& country should not base their national security in wishful hope.There is another factor,India’s internal problems are becoming more & more accute,like population,decaying infra-structure,detoriation in law& order,instability of center,Congress has lost the its hold in up,bihar,mp,and now in Andhra.Corruption,power shortage,water scarcity,& now economy.All in all,pretty dark scenario of bad option.Inflation,poverty,crumbling state of affairs in north,Delhi area law & order is alarming,in fact it is unsafe for females after 8pm.It is scary.The leadership vacuum is frightening.The opposition is still worse,so the the cynical politicians are no hope for a respite. ,India’s cup of misery now over flowing.

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  • Krishna

    This writer is correct. One fine morning, we will end up having chunks of Arunachal under chinese. The present govt is stupid and is simply not up to the task. Indian should make a strong link with the US, in the similar fashion as UK. There is real appreciation for India in the US, both the political class and the people. India has been squandering this intent and goodwill.

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  • sanjeeb

    It is only my view….one day we will be over run be china…..our leaders will flee and poor country men/women will be left….may sound ridiculous but it is true….we are surrounded by pakis and Chinese…..our strategists r not up to the mark thinker and our ladders are busy making money…..GOD SAVE US….

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  • PatriotIndian

    The only solution in India is education. If everyone is educated properly and armed with technical usable skills that would solve half the misery in the globe.

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  • junior consultant Daxue

    Thanks for this both informative and insightful article. This is a report I posted recently about the influences, characteristics, and negative effects of FDI in China from foreign countries. you can find it http://daxueconsulting.com/fdi-in-china/, Hope to exchange ideas.

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  • ved

    It was Nehru’s timidity and stupidity that we lost 1962 border skirmish.China was allowed to dictate the battle as well as the ceasefire. It was allowed to withdraw with a medal just as indian army was preparing to meet and challenge the invader.Why did we accept the ceasefire.? We should have continued the conflict. China had no stomach to continue for long. Nehru also had another hunchback-Krishna Menon who coild not distinguish between a revolver and a pistol. With these two jokers at the helm great Indian army had to bite dust. Shame.

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  • AjaySingh

    India need to show the world, how to become part of the emerging world. China is not a treat that we need to contain. China is fighting for her own survival. With every day passing by, China feels trapped and isolated. There is no need to isolate any nation. Competition is always good. Sit like civilized people and divide what products they can have the market for. And what they can provide market as far as Indian products are concerned. In the end, if the business relations are strong enough, there will be no need for containment policy.
    India can never contain any nation other than Andaman Nicobar !
    Don’t even try to think you are pleasing any other nation by writing such articles. No body is stupid these days. Spread fragrance by rich Indian values, that will work in the end as containment.

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    serenity Reply:

    u r right bro!!! ol nations r familiar to the internal structure of india…weak structure of india n i dont know about the containment by china but our nation is definitely going to collapse due to the internal demonic faces of politicians…i hate this phase that indiia is going thru…none is loyal,joblessness,extreme loads of rapes, abducions,extortions n dumb dead eyed police with having control of their balls to their ministers…really F*** them off……

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  • Col. P.S. Sandhu

    All experts who are credible are of the opinion that 2012 is not 1962. India clearly has an edge over China militarily.

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  • Anonymous

    Superb and
    timely article.

    China’s support
    to Pakistan and Sri Lanka does not serve any of China’s interests — except that
    of encircling India and ‘putting India in her place’. Myanmar learnt China’s
    intentions in time and is coming closer to the US. China’s chauvinism is challenged by Japan,
    Vietnam, Philippines and South Korea. An alarmed Australia has recalibrated her
    military ties with the US publicly — to
    warn China. Even Vietnam is warming up to the United States. It is time India
    joins the littoral States of China and the US in a ‘formal’ alliance. It is
    better to be proactive than react after the event.

    China’s
    Indian lobbyists of today do not even have the ‘cover’ of ‘ideology’, their
    compatriots had in 1962! It is business now!

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  • Anonymous

    It is always fashionable to blame Nehru for the defeat in 1962.Our Army was not well trained at all and even today it is becoming something like the US army who inspite of complete air superiority cannot tame Taliabn in Afghanistan. The Chinese soldiers do not use Bhukharies like us in cold regions.They donot expect air support because they plan for war in peace time and build continuously and train continuously .Their communication trenches can accomodate a jeep and their OPs can take a direct hit of a maortar shell while ours is built on sand bags.Our NAVY’S MARCOS COMMANDOES COULD NOT SUBDUE just 4 terrorists in 60 hours at Taj and have to call in NSG commandoes. Today what we should we discuss is how to improve the stamina and training of our troops so that they feel self confident about themselves.There were nearly 70 constables with 303 rifles in CST but could not fire single bullet at Kasab and his buddy. Why? We must think.

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