Liberhan’s non-liberating masterpiece



Khatawar samjhegi duniya tujhe

Ab itni bhi safayi na de

(Your guilt may become apparent, if you try to prove your innocence so much…)As a Muslim, I have always believed that there are two sorts of people responsible for the demolition of the Babri Masjid on December 6, 1992: those who acted and those who did not (to prevent it).

We did not need a learned judge, 17 years and Rs 8 crores to tell us that the demolition was not a spur-of-the-moment act but a “tailor-made exercise” resulting from a well-planned conspiracy.

Therefore, I do not make much of the Liberhan Commission holding the far-right Sangh Parivar and allied forces responsible for pulling down the mosque. This can only be news to someone foolish enough to be thinking all these years that the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence was responsible.

The Liberhan Commission’s complete exoneration of the then Prime Minister, P.V. Narasimha Rao, is shocking. Its reasons for not indicting Rao are weak and obvious enough to make Rao’s guilt clear. The majority of Congress leaders of that time were themselves nonplussed by Rao’s inaction because, like Muslims, they had full faith in Rao, the prime minister.

Soon after the Babri Masjid was pulled down, a delegation of Muslim leaders called on Rao at his official home. Rao’s demeanor was calm, his cheeks buried in the cup of his palms and eyelids shut. He simply sat through, without the slightest compunction, as member after member spoke out.

When his turn came, the last speaker, Dr. Manzoor Alam of the All-India Milli Council, stood up to say something unpalatable to the prime minister. He said, had the real Chanakya — the legendary political pundit to whom Rao is often compared — been alive, he would have committed suicide on seeing Rao’s exemplary tact. That was the only time when Rao opened his eyes.

The reasons for not indicting Rao are familiar: law and order is a state subject and Rao was unable to act without the Governor’s advice. All of this is so disgusting. Liberhan has given a prevaricated defence. It is well known that in our kind of parliamentary democracy, Governors seldom turn down the Centre’s word because they usually owe allegiance to the ruling party at the Centre.

All the Prime Minister’s Office needed to tell the then Governor was ask for a cablegram advice to dismiss the Uttar Pradesh government before it was too late.

Justice Liberhan report fails to pinpoint the failure of the central government of that time to take appropriate action to prevent the demolition. It also failed to probe BJP leader and former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s role. Worse, it made stray remarks on Vajpayee as being “culpable” without summoning him. This is illegal and against the very provisions of the Commission of Inquiries Act. A judge ought to have known this.

Justice Liberhan feels Vajpayee was one of those responsible for taking the country to the brink of communal discord, as he states in his report. So he owes an answer on why he did not summon Vajpayee, in spite of the appropriate powers at his disposal.

A speech of Vajpayee, addressing the kar sevaks in Ayodhya, was enough to summon him, wherein, the former prime minister had said: “These stones are sharp. No one can sit on them. The ground has to be leveled.” Vajpayee’s apologists point to the levity of the statement that had sparked peals of laughter. Apparently, the place where the rally was being held was uneven. However, there is no missing the woods for the trees. And Vajpayee is no Charlie Chaplin, as Outlook editor Vinod Mehta put it on a television debate.

In spite of repeated requests by senior political leaders both within the Congress and in the secular opposition of that time and the unanimous resolution of the National Integration Council, asking Rao to take all measures to protect the Babri Masjid, Rao hesitated in the face of the communal onslaught. By giving a virtual clean chit to the then central government, Liberhan has laid himself open to the charge of a political bias.

The Liberhan Commission report makes a clear and sharp indictment of the entire RSS and the BJP brass and other constituents of the Sangh Parivar. The report has knocked down the defence of the BJP that it was a spontaneous movement which spun out of control.

You can surely vandalize a sturdy structure in a fit of rage; you cannot completely bring it down, unless you are prepared, with the right plan, right men and right implements. The Liberhan report shows the utter disregard for the Constitution by the BJP and the sangh parivar.

Instead of telling us only about the well-known role of an Advani or a Joshi, Justice Liberhan ought to have told us stuff like whether the Uttar Pradesh Governor was responsible in any way.

It is only fair that the Governor’s role should have been probed. If Rao escaped simply because he could not have acted without the Governor’s advice, then is the then Governor Prof. B. Satyanarayana Reddy guilty of inaction?

Who were the actual plotters of the demolition? We still do not know.

The Action Taken Report placed by the Centre on the basis of some of the Commission’s recommendations is inadequate. It is the responsibility of the current government to see that those indicted do not go scot-free as in the case of the Sri Krishna Commission report.

Now that Justice Liberhan has finally revealed to us all those responsible, cases against them should be expedited in a time-bound manner and build up in a way that does not allow them to escape through legal loopholes.

It is not my goal to see a mosque being rebuilt. Regardless of whether a mosque or a Ram temple is built, it is important for the guilty to be punished simply because the law was broken in the most audacious manner, people were slaughtered in riots that followed and the country’s courts were taken for a ride. It was one act of impunity to break this country up.

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  • Vikram

    Thats true – a law was broken, riots were instigated and the guilty should be punished. period.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Islam has at its core, a philosophy to destroy other religious places/symbols.

    What was the need for them to destroy so many temples, churches ?
    Couldnt they find some other place to build their Mosques to start with ?

    Search on internet and you will find hundreds of Churches and temples who were “converted” or built over with mosques.

    It is an historical injustice perpetrated by Muslims..

    What are muslims doing to fix their bloody mistake ?
    As per them, once a mosque, it should remain (even if some brutal thug captured it by violence).

    What are their solutions, to correct this historic injustice they committed ?

    It is a global problem, not just in india.

    Can they give back Mecca/Medinah to pre-islamic religions ?
    (it was arab pagans sacred place to start with)…

    people of other cultures have apologized for their mistakes like slavery, religious intolerance, genocide…

    but not a single apology for islamic thugs…
    in fact they are still celebrated as heroes..

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Good post.

    The congress has been in the habit of sleeping with fundamentalist elements of all shades, be it muslim fundamentalists or the more dangerous Hindu variant.

    On a pessimistic note, I doubt any action will be taken against any important sanghi’s….leave alone Advani, the murderer that he is; he will still go scot-free.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    We have a confirmed murderer as bharat ratna so how do you expect at best an insinuation of charge to be held against anyone.

    [Reply]

  • http://thegoofysufi.blogspot.com Amit Julka

    First of all,one should understand that when the govt forms a committee, it means that no action is ever going to be taken anyway. What the Muslims should do meanwhile, is start a reformation movement within the community and try to increase their economic clout, so that the powers that be don’t take them for granted. A good example is the Sikh and the Parsi community. Although they are miniscule compared to the Muslims, they have been able to find their way owing to their economic clout.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Amit

    I have presented many a time in these blogs that Muslims shoud look into the Kerala Christian model and deploy applicable models for their development. In spite of being a tiny minority in India, (and a minority in KErala), their contributions annd accomplishments are significant;They never carry the “m inority” label on their sleeves, they just get stuff done. Also, since Christianity being a monotheistic religion, Muslims should find enough “comparables”.

    However, it is quite inconceivable whether Muslims can pull it off until a reformation happens; They will always compalin and whine about other things without cleaning up their ‘house”. It is a big issue they only can solve. Unfortunately, incidents like BAari gives tehir Mullah group a fodder.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Those communities don’t seek for special treatment and have joined mainstream that’s why they are prospering unlike muslim community which insists on sulking in the corner and to be given the prefreential treatment.

    If muslims of GUjarat could be ahead of other community of that state on socio economic ladder what stops muslims of other states ..

    [Reply]

    Kishan Reply:

    And the so called secularists encourage the Muslims in their whining so the Muslims whine even more and it goes on.Secularists are not interested that Muslims behave like Sikhs or Parsis because then their vote bank gets emptied.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Zia,
    You say:
    “Who were the actual plotters of the demolition? We still do not know”
    and then go onto say, “Now that Justice Liberhan has finally revealed to us all those responsible, cases against them should be expedited…”
    I am not a little confused.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Lol !!

    Liberhan has managed to confuse everyone !!

    Poor guy was just aiming for some job security and prolonged to darn thing as long as possible. Leave him alone !!

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    We should have a time limit (max 5 years) on judicial inquiries. In fact, I wonder why we need judicial inquiries. We should fix our criminal and civil legal/police system if they are not upto the task of proper investigation.

    Zia says “there are two sorts of people…one who acts and ones who do not (act to prevent)” . I did not understand on “ones who do not” ..That is too much of responsibility, especially in a group situation. Many would not have given much thought to a non-functioning mosque; and more importantly the exploitation of the aftermath by all interested parties.

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Good catch to go hairsplitting again. What we do not know for sure still is where and when Advani and his gang and the ‘handlers’ of kar sevaks had met to decide that the rath yatra must culminate in the demolition and not just a mere kar seva. A decision must have been taken to that effect. I then said “now that the names have been finally revealed” because the 68 or so names named are hardly a revelation. But the cases against them need to be expedited, tightened and their defence opposed with the sharpest possible legal erudition on the prosecution’s side.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Good luck with legal proceedings..
    So, now, after spending 8 crores of public money on making us none the wiser about the events on that day, the government will spend a few more crores on lawyers and the media is salivating at the prospect of increased readership, TRP and what have you. I am confident that the Congress government will not prosecute anyone based on this report; it has so many loopholes like not questioning many key witnesses and so on and exoneration of Rao.
    The fair statement after this 17 year long excercise is that we do not know:
    - who hatched the conspiracy, if there was one
    If you say, “Advani and his gang and the handlers….must have met”, you could have said so even in 1992; without an iota of proof.
    BJP was the short term beneficiary in electoral terms; but as K points out, elsewhere in comments,
    “The ensuing riots had multiple beneficiaries, not all of whom were involved in the Ram mandir movement. So, lets not generalize a very complex sequence of events where the parasites of indian society acted in unison to destroy our social fabric.

    Everyone is guilty at some level, not just ’sanghis’ but also the courts, politicians, common, civil society, hindus and muslims. Lets learn our lessons before history repeats itself !”

    [Reply]

    Kishan Reply:

    Action should be taken against Devraha Baba also wherever he is in heaven or hell.

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    I agree that the judge spent crores of taxpayer rupees and seventeen years to rehash what was already widely known.

    As Varun said, if laws were broken, the law breakers should be punished, whether they are powerful or not.

    The rush of insinuations, accusations, culpabilities will continue. Secularists will argue about story and history. Politicians will not do anything that upset the vote bank. While it is true that BJP took political advantage of a story (or history as some may argue); it is a story that nevertheless reverberates through a significant majority of Indians. And that reverberation, along with it, brings in historical complexities that some decide to correct, pay back, or realign.

    Ramayana is a living, breathing story for majority of Indians. Rams, Laxmans, Bharaths, Sitas, Sumitra, Kausalyas are all over India.Indian landscape is filled with places with names that has its roots in Ramayana. Ayodhya, Dandakaranya, Panchvadi, Vindhya, Rameshwaram, Sarayu, Sethu Samudram..and beyond Sethu, in Sri Lanka, there is Sita Pokuna, Ashok Vatika, and even seasonal Sita flowers. And then there is Divyurupula in Sri Lanka. In that sense, for many, story of Ayodhya is the history of Ayodhya. So, while it may be illegal, it is no wonder or surprising that a group of motivated people “took back’ their ancestral place of worship. While secularists may blame this as the first act of a systemic “righting” of the thousands of years of destruction of Indian temples and other architecture by Islamic invaders; I believe it is a mere act of taking the Rama temple in Ramas birthplace back; and nothing more. It is futile to question if there was a Rama or if he was born there etc etc. That will be a losing game, and more importantly, trigger for similar things all over; because we all know Muslim invaders and their associates have destroyed structures of worship all over India for 1000 years from 800 to 1700s..

    Ulema could have handed over the structure to the loacl Janmabhoomi organizers; the demolition derby could have given ultimatums before demolition, Rao could have done this, Kalyan could have done that..Well, for Muslims, it was a structure where they did not have any Friday Namaz for 70 or so years, a land in dispute; for hindus it was a living temple because people used to worship there. For Muslims it was a title disputed property; for Hindus it has a special significance; it is their “Dome of the Rock”. The future history will not find fault with the takeover; however, it will find fault about the government not anticipating communal troubles because of this.

    The history of Somnath, Varanasi etc; and the aggressions and destructions based on “for one Book, one God” have been passed to crores of Indians through oral and written tradition since 800 onwards. Redressing historical wounds is never a perfect activity. Nevertheless it has to be addressed with all the associated imperfections. How is that to be redressed..How far back in time does we go.. Who decides the arbitrary timeline. Is it as it was before it was? How many “befores” one has to go? And while it is being discussed, new “befores” are being created (like in Israel).

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Typical BS.

    Firstly this place had no significance for “Hindus”, till the late ’80’s. In fact it still doesnot. No hindu was agitated about it. It was a political move to enflame passions for political ends. Even the pujaris in various ram temples in Ayodha have spoken against the VHP and company for politicising the issue.

    This act has a later parallel, when the Bamiyan Buddha statues were demolished by the Taliban. The sanghis are just the hindu cousins of these talbanis.

    “Ramayana is a living, breathing story for majority of Indians…”

    And about this melodramatic nonsense that you sprouted, we should at least not be hypocritical. If Hindu sentiments override the Indian constitution, then please lets say so openly that we are all a bunch of hypocrites, who shout and shout about muslims considering themselves Muslims first and Indians later, when what you are suggesting is that Hindus can consider themselves Hindus first and Indians later.

    Because the arguments you give precisely mean that, the ramayana and other scriptures are more important to hindus than the Indian constitution ….which by the way I know is the fact. All religious people will consider religion above nationality….by definition. Not just muslims, even though this is used by hindutva nuts against muslims in particular.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    “This act has a later parallel, when the Bamiyan Buddha statues were demolished by the Taliban. The sanghis are just the hindu cousins of these talbanis.”
    Really ??? Was there a mosque at the place where the buddhas were placed ?

    ” the ramayana and other scriptures are more important to hindus than the Indian constitution ….which by the way I know is the fact. ”

    — Well well well …… bobby speaks like a true ‘antaryami’ there !!! I would say that the constitution is based on (or should be based on ?) the laws of Dharma. It will make everyone happy, including humans of all kind, animals, trees and the environment as a whole !

    Try thinking about a religious parallel ……..a mosque or hindu temple in the Vatican instead of the church ? a hindu temple instead of the mecca at the same geographic location ? or a temple instead of the ‘wall’ or whatever they are fighting for in Palestine/Israel ? Can you imagine what will happen in that situation ? Would you be able to fight for a temple in Pakistan at a location if it was known that mohammad was born there ?

    Even a cartoon with a certain name is prohibited in some religions, let alone destruction of a religious place of worship by a foreign invader.

    And why is your narrow mind making this a hindu-muslim issue ? Why not an indian (Hindus, muslims, christians etc.) vs. a non-indian barbaric invader (Babar) issue ? It is not about muslims of india at all. It is about our history and our tradition whoever we are as long as we are indian.

    So, lets not compare apples with oranges and lets treat this problem in its own context. There is no argument to support a defunct mosque at the site. There is no argument to support the unilateral and illegal destruction of the mosque at the site, no matter how ‘zealous’ the worshippers were.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Was there a mosque at the place where the buddhas were placed ?”

    The relevant point is that an ancient monument was demolished. An uncivilized act. Thats irrelevant. Incidently, we do not know whether there was a temple either.

    “a mosque or hindu temple in the Vatican instead of the church ?”
    Thats just humbug.

    The fact of the matter is that this place does not have any resonance with hindus. It was a case of fabricated sentiments. There was no agitation about this place before the late ‘80 ’s. There is no parallel with vatican or mecca.

    “And why is your narrow mind making this a hindu-muslim issue ? ………It is not about muslims of india at all. It is about our history and our tradition whoever we are as long as we are indian. ”

    Oh really!! how sweet of you….. Its not “OUR” tradition, its Hindu tradition. Ram is not a muslim god. About history, yes its OUR history…so why not accept it and get on with life instead of trying to undo it?

    K Reply:

    Bobby, you are starting with the assumption that ’sanghis are as bad as taliban’ and then looking for evidence, so be my guest.

    Your comparison of Bamiya buddha destruction with Babri masjid demolition is a long shot by any logical standards !

    Yeah, the scenario of a temple at Vatican is hypothetical, not ‘humbug’.. Worth consideration anyway !!

    “The fact of the matter is that this place does not have any resonance with hindus.”

    – The ‘Antaryami’ speaks again !!

    “Its not “OUR” tradition, its Hindu tradition”

    – And please tell me who’s a Hindu by your definition ?
    In my definition (not a unique one !), its sanatana dharma, not the religion as you see it or a religion owned by ’sanghis’. Which means everyone who lives on ‘our’ side of the indus and follows a specific ‘way of life’ is a hindu. Doesnt have to worship Ram, but has to respect all religions equally. Doesnt have to worship Babar or protect his legacy for sure !

    – Guru GovindSingh, Buddha, Mahavir are as much a part of ‘OUR’ tradition as Ram or Krishna.

    Bobby my friend ………you dont ‘get’ India or the hindu thought at all. So, this topic isnt for you, i am afraid !

    Bobby Reply:

    “Doesnt have to worship Ram, but has to respect all religions equally.”

    why? I “disrespect all religions” equally, but am very much an Indian.

    K Reply:

    Bobby, I am afraid you confuse lack of belief for lack of respect or disrespect. I dont see you abusing any religion on this blog so I wouldnt say that you disrespect all religions equally.

    I dont think you disrespect all religions equally – I think you like to project yourself as an athiest.

    This is what any educated person would do !

    K Reply:

    Take that last statement back – “this is what any educated person would do !” …..was meant for a different argument.

    Akash Reply:

    @K,
    Actually, I would have to agree with Bobby. Why should one have to respect anything? This obsession with respect is the cause of half the misery in our country. Any inconvenient question is promptly shoved under the carpet on dubious grounds of crossing boundaries of respect. And, just to tell you, I can be an atheist or agnostic and still be a Hindu. You should read more about the other philosophical branches of Hinduism.

    K Reply:

    By saying ‘respect religions equally’, I dont mean ‘believe in any particular religion’.

    I do believe that a hindu should (by definition !) respect (try not to offend! ) someone’s islamic or christian beliefs and vice versa in order for India to be peaceful.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    Why? Why? Why? Why respect???? Especially when they teach wrong notions.

    Hinduism teaches:

    transmigration of soul…WRONG
    divinity of man…WRONG
    theory of karma, meaning, one’s actions in this life gets awarded or punished in next life….. WRONG

    Christianity teaches world was formed in 6 days…… GIBBERISH

    Islam teaches punishement to unbelievers in hell….. NONSENSE

    These are just few of the ideas of these religions which are blatantly wrong ideas, so why should some one respect wrong ideas. Yes one should respect the right of others to believe whatever they want to…but no need to respect ideas…..

    By the way, before some one accuses me of mentioning several more wrong ideas of hinduism than of islam and christianity, the reason is simply that I know more of hinduism than of other religions.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Bobby

    I was not implying that the constitution should be violated. I am for legally prescribed punishments for ALL(including the powerful) who break the law. And, as such, anybody who is found guilty should be given the MAXIMUM punishment the law prescribes.

    Laws are there because some people do not follow law. And my argument was how historicism plays a role in some of these deviations. Although not always accurate reflection of human activity; historicism nevertheless presents us with the only window through which we view the past in the present and we try to shape the future. Througout history human society has remained conflict prone and not conflict free; history is responsible for it to a great extent. A small and isolated incident can flare up into a conflagration because of divisions in historical lines. India is primed for such violent disruptions of social order because of the “fertile” ingredients present.

    Some people in India want to go back 5000 years ago; while for the secularists the start date is Aug 15, 1947. For most of the Msulims, especially North Indian Muslism it is the seven hundred years before the East India company. So, it is a conflict between 5000 years of history or memory or story vs 700 years vs 70 years. Politics has no roots without history, and history ahs no fruits without politics. So, when Rao closed his eyes, he was opening to history as a cunning and calculative politician.

    And the dynamics of history tend to create repetition of events – Muslims destroying temples, Hindus rebuilding (And in the Babri case) taking over mosques, Muslims sending mortars in Israel and Israel razing neighborhoods, Pak army wiping off Swath and Taliban attacking Punjab….These repeats can be positive also. India is in the threshold of repeating the glorious age of Mauryas and the Guptas; however, the Babris and insurgencies will slow the process. Chandra Gupta Maurya did not have to please a vote bank;.

    Redressing the historical wounds, irrespective of constitution, is an emotional need built up over historical times. Armenians want Turks to “recognize” the genocide 100 years ago. Jews want Germans to repent (for ever and ever) for their annihilation of 6 million Jews. Palestinians want their home land which was taken over by Israel in the 1967 war initiated by Arabs.

    So, the question remains – How is it to be done ? How far back in time do we go? Who decides the timeline? Who is the arbitrator? The cycles will continue without resolutions for these.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    I’ll have to agree with Bobby on this one that the rascals need to be punished no matter what their affiliation are. It’s a lame excuse that so and so thing is close to our faith and so we are right to indulge in hooliganism. That’s all just bakwas. Nevertheless, I would disagree with Bobby as to his assertion that there was no historical precedent for the claim of Ram-Janmbhoomi. It’s just that BJP revived something that was lying dormant for a long time. It’s fruitless to attach historical riders to issues of faith. It just complicates things. After all, who can historically claim that the Prophet ascended heaven from the Dome of the Rock. It is the selfless faith of billions that makes the place holy, no matter how tenuous any historical claim is.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “I would disagree with Bobby as to his assertion that there was no historical precedent for the claim of Ram-Janmbhoomi…”

    Dear Akash,

    I was not refering to whther the mandir existed or not, what I mean is that this was not a big issue for most people, till the sanghis decided to rake it up for political reasons.

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Again you are wrong this was not the big issues till Rajeev gandhi indulged into nonsense of Sha Bani and thereby in another nonsense of unlocking Ram temple

    Bobby Reply:

    @ Anil Kumar….. I agree.

    sanjeev Reply:

    for the kind information of all, the agittation and attempt against babri masjid was in 1949 (before BJP was born.

    Kishan Reply:

    Not only India such names with some variations/distortions can be found in Thailand,even in Indonesia.And Indonesians have their folk theater based on Ramayana and Mahabharata.

    [Reply]

  • K

    I think its a shame that we are spending so much energy debating the most obvious, while other countries are busy overtaking us in other fields.

    Religious groups on both sides lack the maturity to take a decision on this trivial issue and let the politicians drive a largely socio-religious debate.

    The ensuing riots had multiple beneficiaries, not all of whom were involved in the Ram mandir movement. So, lets not generalize a very complex sequence of events where the parasites of indian society acted in unison to destroy our social fabric.

    Everyone is guilty at some level, not just ’sanghis’ but also the courts, politicians, common, civil society, hindus and muslims. Lets learn our lessons before history repeats itself !

    [Reply]

    Harish Reply:

    Agree with this,

    But There is something else that needs to be Addressed and goes missing through all this. The congress emerged scotfree. Whether its the Bofors case or the 84 Massacre or for that matter the emergency, No one ever gets punished.

    The sangh parivar is guilty, no doubt. Everyone should be investigated ( even Vajpyee, whom i ave a lot of respect for) , but when we fight proxy war for a jessical lal case any such trnasactional issue, we keep forgetting how the COngress consistantly Subverts the indian judicial system. If there are 10 problems in the country ( as a whole ), congress has created 5 and the BJP 5. BJP gets caught and screwed, the congress as always goes scotfree. Does this not Piss people off.

    Narasimha rao was an enabler,there cannot be any two ways about it and he should have atleast beent apped in the knuckles and why in gods Name Kalyan singh Not in Prison and jagdish Tyler contesting elections!.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “BJP gets caught and screwed….”
    they get caught all right, but not screwed.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    If there are 100 problems in the country congress has created 99 BJP 1..

    If there are 100 riots in country congress has presided over 99 BJP 1..

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    You are later Jia.. We have gone through so much on this report that Liberhan word invokes ennui now.
    I could have gone through your piece if it had come a week earlier.

    [Reply]

  • Rajen Kaushal

    From Justice Liberhan’s biased outcome, one can understand what people are sitting in judiciary. Law was made to make decisions unbiased and with candouring approach. A survey should be done how many people feel centre govt. was also responsible and if wide survey says yes, Justice LIberhan should also be prosecuted for coming up with biased approach. Most of people know that Narsimha Rao had hand in glove as he was also eyeing the Hindu votes.

    When we talk of prosecutions, if some temples were demolished by attackers as Babar, Humayun as world was ruled on religious issues at that time, what history cannot be corrected and muslims always polarise such sensitive issues.

    Muslims majority in Kashmir can throw Kashmiri pandits out and there is no commission to do justice? Thousand Sikhs were massacred under Congress regime and no major leader is found guilty? Sikhs seek justice but they butchered several Hindus in Punjab in retalliation, what about compensation to those Hindus who lost nears and dears during terrorism in Punjab? There is no voice. When blog writers write, they should analyse all wrong acts in history and ask for redressal of all and not one particular issue.

    Hindus are divided from state to state as regionalism rules in India. There are several states which allows only local people to buy land in those states such as Himachal Pradesh, where is India sentiment?

    There should be uniform rules across India to develop one nation ideology otherwise, some day, country will be on the brink of break away on regional grounds.

    Lawmakers must ensure they give all judgements with candouring approach and all law keepers must ensure no innocent is victimised under money or political influence. India need to improve on professional commitments and probity.

    Govt. should also work towards ensuring free education upto two children, some allowance to ensure growth of children till 18 years, free education, medical facilities whch will also cut down the corruption. There should be flat systems for residential colonies so that big desires vanish automatically if everyone have to live in limited means.

    Thanks

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Rajen

    You are right on uniform rules. One of the reasons why Muslims are backward and not integrated is their own personal law, which makes it easier to divorce, and makes them not take advantage of educational opportunities.

    There should not be any system of preferences and reservations; except for economically disadvantaged segments, to bring them up.

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    Liberhan has thrown alot of mud without rhume or reaosn in every direction.. one shoudl ask why did he not rope in the the guy who started this all by opening lock of ram temple that is Rajeev Gandhi.. he takes philopshical liberty and rues abotu the orgin of things i wonder how this event missed his mind..

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    While we are at t can we shed some tears for 600 temples that were demolished in 1990 in Kashmir valley please.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Why? It was not done by Hindutva fanatics..

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Oke Babar Aurangjeb ke progeny jab tak madnir todte rahe thik hai

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Anil
    Are you sure these were Hindu Temples?

    Are you sure they were not centers for hoarding of ill gotten wealth for conspiring against the peaceful people of Kashmir?

    Are you sure these were not built on Buddhist Viharas, demolished by the Fanatic Hindu rulers ? After all the liberating forces who made this land worth living, learnt the practice of temple demolitions from these fanatic Hindu Rulers.

    Are you sure they were not centers for immoral activities of Evil “Bramhins”, as was the case with the Vishwanath temple at Kashi. Just to remind you, the Great Emperor, Aurangzeb ordered its demolition on the requests of a wailing Hindu Queen who was a victim of the Evil Bramhins of that temple. She insisted that the place had become impure and therefore not fit for Lord Shiva’s idol. It was only then that the Great Emperor Aurangzeb with a heavy heart and a choked throat had to order construction of a mosque in place of demolished temple.

    Please don’t use these lies for disrupting the communal harmony prevailing in Kashmir

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Anil,

    I hope you realize the difference between the criminal action of one’s own government or political parties within the Indian political framework, and action of militants. There is not much point “protesting” or holding “candle light vigils” against the militants or terrorists. Tackling them is the job of the state police and army. However actions of governments or political parties can be stopped, and its something Indian citizens can do something about, and something citizens are primarily responsible for.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Boby

    Citizens can vote them in again! Congress party can rule the center and many states without having to have any coalition arrangement – and congress organized one of the biggest murder campaigns..(In the Babri isue, the demolition itself did not have any “round up, and murder” plan)

    Modi gets reelected with even larger majority..

    Loss always is personal; for the populace it is just a news item, one day’s memory; and if memory at all; a memory of revenge.

    I disagree with you that citizens cannot do anything about terrorists/terrorism. There is quite a lot – reporting on suspects, reporting on hate speech, monitoring madrasas etc

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    S Singh
    Citizens especially the secular ones actually do their bit for the terrorists, including:

    Root Causelogy: Primary Cause is Hindu communalism/terrorism. Poverty, low education,
    Opposing Anti Terror Laws – for defending terrorists’ rights

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear S Singh,

    please tell me how mumbai citizens would have prevented 26/11? How would you protest those terrorist actions? Who would you protest against? The LeT? How would you protest against cross border terrorists involved in destroying temples in Kashmir, or the killing of Hindu Pandits by them? All that can be done is to see that they get back their land, and that militancy is removed. Citizens can not do much about it.

    @SKS,

    Anti- terror laws are opposed not to defend terrorist rights, but rather to defend rights of innocents, who form the majority of people who get arrested under such laws. I don’t know about you, but as far as I am concerned, if the ratio of actual terrorists caught to that of innocents is very low, which incidently is the case, then such laws should not exist.
    Root cause is something one should look at ALWAYS, if one want to solve a problem. Its a simple point, to solve a problem one should understand it first.

  • Raju Kurien

    One country (Switzerland) amends its constitution to make Muslims integrate…..

    In a vote that displayed a widespread anxiety over Islam and its Jehadism , Swiss parliament on Sunday overwhelmingly imposed a national ban on the construction of minarets in Muslim mosques.

    The Swiss constitution will be amended because this was passed in all cantons and got more than the needed majority in the parliament.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @ Raju
    Just check, I don’t think it was Parliament, it were citizens who voted in a referendum to ban the minarets. The government and the ruling party had actually opposed this move and recommended their citizens to vote against the move.

    If you could arrange a 100,000 signatures for any move, the state is bound to hold a nationwide referendum on that move. That this happened in Switzerland is indeed a surprise (or shock) and the arguments made for the ban even more interesting

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    SKS

    A while ago France had a voting on hejab. What was the outcome? Is there a Europe-wide tightening of rules forcing Muslims to integrate or quit after the French riots three years ago and the numerous cases of Pakistani Muslim terrorism in UK? Do you think this Swiss thing will spread across other countries in Europe?

    I did read comments by Muslims criticizing the people of Switzerland for passing this. It is strange they never criticize Saudi Arabia, who will not allow any structure of worship by non-Muslims!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Raju Kurien,
    Now you know the true meaning of
    To you your religion and to me mine..
    The bald interpretation is: Heads I win, Tails you lose

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Well this people vote makes it more credible than parliament

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Tariq Ramdaan says it is due to an an unjustified fear of Islamic terrorism; and he is sad that the country where he was born will do this. (Guardian UK)

  • Anil Kumar

    Even Guljai lal nanda has not ben spared in thsi report but the obvious culprit Rajeev gandhi is conspicuous by absence..

    Chanda Mitra writes ..

    Remember Gulzari Lal Nanda? Although he was Prime Minister twice, I can bet only the 60-plus generation of informed citizens and quiz show participants will recall the name, fame or lack of it. GL Nanda last hit the news pages about 20 years ago when he was unceremoniously thrown out bag and baggage from a flat in Delhi’s Defence Colony for non-payment of rent. The elderly Gandhian leader died shortly thereafter in near-penury after leading a long ascetic life. The ramrod straight Congress leader of yesteryear used to wash his own clothes and cook his own meals till he was too old, infirm and bed-ridden. Upon the death of Jawaharlal Nehru in 1963 and Lal Bahadur Shastri in early 1966, Nanda was sworn in as Prime Minister for brief periods by virtue of being the senior-most member of the Cabinet. Although described as Acting PM by the media, his name adorns the record books because the Constitution does not recognise any category as ‘Acting’. He dutifully resigned on both occasions after the party chose Shastri and Indira Gandhi respectively to head the Government and was re-inducted into the Cabinet by both his successors.

    Poor Gulzari Lal Nanda has been resurrected once more, this time in rather unflattering light. On page 336 of the 1,000-page-plus Justice MS Liberhan Report, there is a stinging indictment of Nanda along with former RSS chief Prof Rajendra Singh (Rajju Bhaiyya) and Dau Dayal Khanna (a respected advocate of post-Partition refugee rehabilitation). They have been blamed for being “ardent Hindus” who created an atmosphere in which radical Hindu sentiment could grow. Nanda’s ashes must be churning in their urn at the bracketing. But more sinisterly, Liberhan insinuates that the efforts by leaders like GL Nanda eventually culminated in the demolition of the Babri Masjid!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Law breakers should be punished, period.

    However, I would have expected Zia, in the spirit of “external,and internal dialogue, rectification, reconciliation, and PR” he eloquently presented in the previosu blog, would have suggested a great healing notion that would have brought a huge “relational dividend”.. Ayodhya being a foundational and aspirational place for the majority of Indians, I thought he would recommend the Wakf Board to handover the land/title to the temple committee (if there is one), and thus put a fullstop to the 120 plus years of litigation , turmoil., and communal animosity related to this. (may be we should blame my fellow keralite KK Nair , Dist Collector/Magistrate there in 1940s, for allowing Hindus to worship there, and for not turning them away. For him, it was a closed mosque, and people were thronging in to worship)

    As one moves through these types of issues, one should be cognizant that this is not just a matter of discussion, debate, archaeology, or law. To the majority it is a matter of faith. That is why the case has been going on for 100 plus years with nobody making a decision, that is why the honourable judge took 17 years for his sreport, that is why Rao kept quiet when he got the warning/news. For Rao knew, he needed a significant part of the majority vote in addition to the minority vote that he can always bank on.

    Something is seriosuly wrong when the Home Minister goes to Deobandi meeting after 17 years of the incident, and apologizes for the incident (in that case, govt should assume all the responsibility and stop this inquiry business). It is even “wronger” when he gives a sermon about the need for majority to takie care of the minority. Who created minority? Not, the majority.

    I remember reading about the evolution and psyche of Tamil/Sinhalese issue in Sri Lanka. Because of the way Tamils went about their “business” in Sri Lanka, Sinhalese, just like Shiites in Iran or Jews in Israel, were a demographic majority with a dangerous minority complex of persecution. And the Tamils, for their part, were labeled as a minority with a majority complex., owing to historical victories in Anuradhapura in Ceylon and in South India. Ceylon;s post independence experience has borne out of the worst fears of both communities. Historians have recorded that the sitruation in Sri Lanka exploded because there is nothing crueler than a majority that feels itself a minority.

    So, let us assign the blame, punish the law breakers. Let us hope the Wakf board will hand over Ayodhya property to whoever wants to worship there (we know Muslims did not worship tehere for the last 80 years or so),. This will be a major step for inter-reconciliation (Muslims still have a big “Intra reconciliation” as Zia alluded in the last blog.).

    In the absence of this reconciliation, “no more Somnath” will be a battle cry for many; may not be loud; and no government will shoot its own marching citizens, whether they are Muslims or Hindus. In that scenario, numbers win; and the consequences will be worse for the numerical minority.

    These things would not have happened fifty years ago. A rising economy, and an affluent middle class always brings the ‘historical wounds” out in the open.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “I thought he would recommend the Wakf Board to handover the land/title to the temple committee (if there is one), and thus put a fullstop to the 120 plus years of litigation , turmoil.”

    Dear Gopi,

    The level of hypocrisy on display from you guys is shocking. Its like saying, why does not the shop owner pay his hafta to the local goonda and put a full stop to the case. Either you beleive in the Indian constitution or you do not. You can not pick and choose. You cannot tell muslims to think of themselves as “Indians first” and muslims later, and suggest to hindus that its fine for them trample on the constitution, when their “matter of faith” comes into the question. Please maintain the same set of standards.

    “To the majority it is a matter of faith…”
    Well firstly this is not true, the point is the Hindutva organizations, are simply acting like goondas in this case. They do not own India any more or less than muslims do, so “their faith” does not qualify them to violate the indian supreme court orders, anymore than muslims can. Moreover coming from you, this statement is even more hypocritical. You along with your ideological friends, have always written here that for muslims, their faith comes before Indian laws…now its interesting to see you argue the other way round.

    “Something is seriosuly wrong when the Home Minister goes to Deobandi meeting after 17 years of the incident, and apologizes for the incident…”

    The prime minister has apologized on behalf of the congress party to the sikhs for the 1984 riots, and rightly. In fact apology is not enough, those who are culprits in both cases should get proper punishment…especially since they are big guys.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Muslims already got Pakistan !!
    so please do not try to take any more from Hindus in India.

    As harsh as it sounds, Hindus are second class citizens in the name of Secularism.
    If any religions keeps trying to extract from Hindus more, there will be a backlash pretty soon.

    if the backlash comes, the whole society will late lot of steps back..

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Sam

    I do not agree Hindus are (or feel as) second class citizens; moreover, they are optimistic and enterprising group of people.

    However, I do sense that the government takes them for granted and are appeasing to minorities, denying hem jobs, admission etc even if they are better qualified.

    You are absolutely right that a backlash can happen if things get out of synch.

    Sam, Reply:

    Hindus do not have control on their religious places.
    Govt controls them.

    It is not the same level of control, other religious institutions and places are subjected to..

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby

    I do believe in Indian constitution. Any crime should be punished; so also this one.

    I was surprised Zia did not suggest this, especially coming after he wrote about the great reconciliation needs Islam/Muslims had internally and externally. (Just last Sunday, as some remarked in this blog, Swiss people voted to ban minarets).

    I am stating a potential, likely, and natural (as it has been throughout histories – no reason to believe historical human behaviors will stop suddenly) outcome in these situations.

    If all followed laws, the 1967 Arab war (by Egypt, Jordan, and four others; led by Gamal Nasser) would not have happened. And West Bank and Gaza would not have been occupied.

    As a religious person, I do not have a dog in this fight. But, as an Indian, I do.

    And more and more things look in this country; a Westerner will settle these contentious issues!

    I still believe Zia lost a golden opportunity!

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    @SKS @Ashish

    Swiss Muslim update: No wonder why nobody cares about UN!

    “United Nations Human Rights experts warned that the Swiss referendum banning new minarets restricted the religious freedom. A ban on minarets amounts to an undue restriction of the freedom to manifest ones religion and constitutes a clear discrimination against members of the Muslim community”

    Now I understand why the US treats UN with contempt.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Definition of religious freedom for Muslims includes their right to live in a JUST SOCIETY. For JUST SOCIETY, Sharia is the only way. So till the time you don’t have a Just Society, Muslim’s religious freedom is restricted, which is Oppression and the rest is our future.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I don’t think Swiss people should have banned Minarets. By doing so they have downgraded themselves to the levels of Muslims.

    The Swiss govt. should have asked for a referendum by swiss muslims on the question whether-
    1. Non-Muslims should be allowed in Mecca and Medina.
    2. Non-Muslim religious places to be built in Saudi Arabia especially near Kaaba.
    3. Non-Muslims have the right to worship openly and spread their faith in Saudi Arabia.

    If swiss muslims vote Yes for all three option, govt. should allow construction of thousand of Minarets provided Saudi govt. respect wishes of Swiss muslims.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Rajeev
    That will be a great experiment; and settle the issues once and for all!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I hate muslim double standards. They crib when in micro-minority, cry hoarse whn in minority and suppress others when in majority.

    Every muslim whether moderate or fanatic want Islam to rule the world. Even Zia must be secretly wishing India to turn into Islamic republic where friday will be public holiday.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    If muslims have any shame left they should boycott Saudi Arabia.. in face of open eulogy and patronizatio of Saudi and other muslim countries this secualr hallabol is at best nonsense on their part.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Rajeev

    Muslims will not ask because they know it is blasphemous to have a place of worship other than for Allah; and SA will not answer (or may). Actually, one should test it by a formal request.

    SA’s rejection will be based on the unique notion of justice. Justice is not treating everyone equally; but justice is to abide by the Laws of God. To allow people to build structures dedicated to “disbelief” in Arabia would be unjust, because it violates the laws that Allah has revealed. Conversely, the secular regimes have no right to prevent the propagation (not necessarily proslytization) of the religion of Allah. After all, one does not have the right to do wrong!.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Shoeb K
    You are right. heard this one

    “The ambassador to Saudi Arabia spoke out against the ban, saying, “This vote was completely unnecessary. If a bunch of Christians came to a Muslim country and built a church, we wouldn’t have an election about banning them from building any more. We’d just bomb the place!”

    Source Spoof News

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    If it is blasphemous to suggest a temple in Mecca then it is equally blasphemous to have a mosque at Ayodhya, Varanasi and Mathura.

    It is time hindus demand reciprocal gestures from muslims.

    Enough is enough.

    [Reply]

    Spiegel Reply:

    It’s easy to be secular when you have no minorities to deal with. Now that Europe has to cope with Muslim communities, the mask of tolerance is being ripped off.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Spiegel

    I do not think they are ‘less’ tolerant. They will be intolerant If they banned mosques, worship etc (such as countries like Saudi Arabia does).

    Europe, as well as US, as well as many countries in other continents are quite worried about Islamic terrorism. The attacks in UK, Spain etc, especially when they were all hatched by second generation Pakistanis, have created a feeling that theer are enemies in their midst. British workers are deserting teh LAbor Party and joining the “rightwing” BNP.

    Our own Shah Ruh Khan got held up in Newark airport for many hours.

    These – people reactions/resentment, governmental controls in their zest to protect the public etc – will continue until the militant fascist Islamic threat subsides.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    SECULAR FIGHTBACK – EXPOSING TENTACLES OF HINDUTVA TERROR
    A summary of the critical analysis by Secular Forces (Using 3 Articles as a starter)
    I. The first analysis is by the “Only thing Indians can be proud besides our great Islamic heritage” which starts from a Bomb Blast in Nanded on April 2006. Here we go
    Quote: the night of April 5-6, 2006 a bomb exploded in the house of Laxman Gundayya Rajkondwar, a retired executive engineer at the PWD, Nanded. Two persons – Naresh Rajkondwar and Himanshu Panse – died on the spot while four of their accomplices – Maroti Keshav Wagh, Yogesh Deshpande (alias Vidulkar), Gururaj Jairam Tuptewar and Rahul Manohar Pande – were seriously injured. Unquote. Full article at http://www.countercurrents.org/setalvad310808.htm.

    In a remarkable piece of investigative secular journalism, this article explains in detail the quality of investigations by ATS and CBI exposing the real face of Terror in India and asks finally:
    Quote: Is “Hindu terrorism” now an integral part of the sangh parivar’s “Hate Muslims” agenda, at least for the Bajrang Dal, acting with the covert blessing of and logistical support from sections within the VHP and even the RSS? How do we know that the Bajrang Dal and others have not been conducting similar bomb training camps in states other than Maharashtra? (After all, but for the bomb blowing up accidentally in Nanded the Maharashtra police might still be clueless about the people involved in the local terror plot. The way investigations have been conducted into the second accidental blast in Nanded in 2007 raises other serious issues.) Has communal violence now donned a terrorist garb on both sides of the communal divide?
    If as part of their strategy Hindu extremists Disguise Themselves as Muslims and then Engage in Terrorist Activity, could they also be responsible for SENDING OUT EMAILS CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY FOR BLASTS UNDER ASSUMED MUSLIM NAMES AND USING AN ISLAMIC VOCABULARY?

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Spiegel

    It also depends on what a “real” discrimination is.

    Eyebrows are raised when one woman walks in a burqua with only eyeslits open when everybody else is in jeans or salwarst. Others consider it as an arrogance when that woman asserts it is her right. Thatis when people mobilise to vote it down.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Spigel

    Gujrati entrepreneurs do not havve any problem in conducting lucrative business and professions in Africa (Idi Amin issue was not oof disctrimination) . they run almost all the motels in the so called “racial” south of USA. In fact, Indians do extremely well in USA. Indians (may be only Hindus , or may be all ) have done well in UK and integrated well there too. However, Pakistani Muslims are caught in the terrorism web.

    So, it may be that agroup of people who were denied freedoms in their homeland, suddenly when exposed to total fredom do not know how to handle it. They emphasize rights over responsibilities, and that may rub off wrongly.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SKS

    “disguising as Muslims..”…. No need for that! Mullahs in at least 50% (based on my travel sample) of the 900,000 plus mosques here are preaching hatred and motivating for you know what.

    39,000 new Mosques have been constructed in the last five years, mostly Wahabi “oriented”, and mostly funded by Saudi Arabian money. You know what Saudis and Wahabis do. For all the clamour, no new temples have been created in the last five years; unless you count the new roadside shacks springing up (may be Bajrangs does not have money! btw I am against these roadside shacks; construct nice buildings!)

    I hope the meticulous CBI have enough agents to drop in at random in sample mosques for the Friday Khutbah. Otherwise, they will not have a country to show the results of their meticulous investigation on the monstrous face of Hindu terrorism. It will be a “Not A Country for No Man”!

    L Mirza Reply:

    A view of the dangerous little monsters in Pakistan, and how it is going to be even worse in the future (for them and for us)

    http://blog.dawn.com/2009/12/03/little-monsters/

    an excellent analysis

  • SKS Mumbai

    Europe and Islam
    The argument by the Sponsors of Swiss referendum was that Minarets are a religio-political symbol and must not be allowed. Force of this argument comes from Islam’s self description as a code for every aspect of life (incl. Politics, economics, banking etc). They also used an statement made by Mr Erdogan (currently PM of the most Secular Muslim state – Turkey), sometime in late 90s. The statement (apparently poem) said : The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers. He was also associated with an Islamist party and was banned from holding political office, till a change in law allowed him to become PM. Since then he has often claimed he is not a hard line Islamist.

    In the opinion of Mr Sarkozy and his party, their Burqa debate is vastly different from the Minaret ban, and they have also issued statements condemning in Minaret Ban, but for Muslims it would be same.
    There are opinions that the Swiss court will overturn the ban, EU and UN are also looking at possible violations of international charters that Switzerland is party to. Some countries have asked UN to reconsider its presence in Geneva, or suggested the status of International Pariah on Switzerland.
    (Of course, you will never hear any one questioning Saudi Arabia, may be because UN does not have any office there).

    Needless to say, Racism, xenophobia, fascism, Islamophobia, intolerance, hatred for foreigners particularly for muslims, against human right and freedom of religion, are flying thick and fast. There have been statements claiming it is an insult to Islam and it has hurt feelings of Muslims worldwide from Muslim leaders who are even invoking Gandhi’s eye for any eye makes all blind statement (by these standards to save the world from becoming blind we should stop at one eye itself, no prizes whose eye would be the first). ( I have a suggestion for all the insulted and hurt muslims, announce boycott of Saudi Arabia, till they also allow what you want everywhere else, remember Swiss haven’t banned construction of Mosques, it is only the minarets).

    In any case, after Switzerland’s ban, the nationalist parties (of course in secular speech nationalist is as bad as right wing or far right) in many other countries of WEurope have also called for similar measures and these parties have been gaining ground in recent elections. Spokesman of German’s chancellor Merkel said that the Government was certain that freedom of religion was as important in Switzerland as it was in Germany. (Scramble that). Another leader from the ruling party (germany) has said “to criticize the outcome would be counter productive… .. .. It reflects a fear of growing Islamisation of society and this must be taken seriously”

    WEurope isn’t all, Canada, Australia, New Zealand have also been grappling with demands for Sharia, insistence that voting IDs for Muslim women should be given without photographs, special prayer rooms in schools, colleges and prisons, exclusive time slots for public swimming pools (of sorry, I am distorting, everyone can access these slots, if they wear a BURQINI), blocking university Gyms or libraries during their prayer, only halal food to be supplied in hostels, schools, prisons are, but some of the conditions for you to be classified as not a racist. Frankly these are petty things for a NON-Racist society.

    Take your pick

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SKS

    Turkey was a “pariah” for Muslims until recently because 1) It is not an Islamic republic 2) Kamal Pasha Ata Turk and his army cut off the clerical influence in early twenties and ever since the army keeps a vigil on teh clerics keeping them away from involvement in the government and that they dont rebond 3)No compulsory madrasas 4) the natural death of the Indian khilafet movement due to Turkey cutting off the whole c— 5) they did not want anything to do with Ummah, and wanted to focus on the antion-state of Turkey.

    However, with Erdogan, other Islamic countries are warming up to Turkey. I believe the EU made a strategic mistake in delaying their admission to the EU. Obviously, Islamists are revelling at this. It all depends on the military whether they will be able to keep the constant vigil on the clerics. We all know what ahappened to the Pakistani army after Zia (not our HT Zia!)

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    There was a time when UK would give refuge to firebrand Imams from Lebanon, Jordan, and other middle eastern countries. They have deported all of them, and there is a huge debate going on about the home grown Muslim terrorists, mainly second generation Pakistani British. The whole visa/residency process has been tightened very much.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    I see the Swiss ban on minarets not as a vote against Islam but more as an expression of Swiss identity.

    The Swiss want to retain their identity & understandably so.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    hi Syed, I was wondering where you disappeared to.

    I believe there was a fear factor too

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Gopi
    Ok then, -the Swiss are scared that they will lose their identity.

    Actually you people are saying pretty much what I would be saying, so no need of my posts..

    Spiegel Reply:

    All the orientals going gaga over the the Swiss ban fail to understand that this is not against Muslims per se, had it been any community in Swiss it would have faced the same consequences. That is what I said, our values are different from these rigid monolithic European countries like we are admixture of several communities from centuries living together. Whereas in Europe they just believe in one religion, language and culture and in this case they just surrendered in few decades (showed their real face).

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    hmmm…

    [Reply]

  • raju Kurien

    Ialamic terrorism/Jehadism update:

    One Nazir and his brother-in-law Shafi were arrested in Bengla Desh in connection with planned bombings of embassies in Dhaka. They, apparently, are connected with the series of bomb attacks in India (Hyd, Blr, Del).

    Nazir is apparently the LeT chief for India. He was a SIMI leader from Kerala; and joined other parties for cover when SIMI was banned.

    He has been extradicated to India and under interrogations by the Home Ministry.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    SECULAR FIGHTBACK – EXPOSING TENTACLES OF HINDUTVA TERROR Contd..
    II. This analysis after Mumbai Train blasts is by (probably a rising start) another secular activist. Prominent among his views are “Ahmadinejad is a necessity for the betterment of the world at large”: (http://saswat.com/blog/mumbai_blasts_hindu.html)
    Quote: However, these blasts are no aberrations for ———— Mumbai—a city governed by Hindu right-wing fanatics of India ——-The usual suspects: “Terrorists” ——————————–What is important to note here is that the more one uses this word, the more one tends to align with the interests of the ruling class. Unquote

    He points out a startling consistency: that every such event usually happens when the ruling powers are most unstable themselves and usually these take shape of communal violence. Applying this model, he notes:
    Quote: ————-In India, bomb blasts in Maharashtra or genocide in Gujarat are cases of Hindu fanatics attacking Muslim minorities in the name of their own misplaced insecurities. ————————————— From propagandizing religions in school education (Saraswati Vidya Mandir) to promote HINDU BUSINESSES (SWADESHI JAGRAN MANCH), the right-wingers of India have stopped at nothing in overcoming their insecurities. Unquote

    He notes two recent incidents: First, defacement of statue of one woman in Mumbai and 2nd, an empty tourist bus from Gujarat was burnt down in front of the Hindu bosses’ office.
    Quote: — So basically, there was no reason to suspect that any Muslim groups or “terrorists” or Pakistan might have been behind such incidents. On the contrary, going by the way, the statue was chosen (to rouse sentiments), the bus came from Gujarat (Hindu violent prone state) and the location (Shiv Sena office), one could investigate the hands of the Sainiks in these events. ————————-the Leader of the Fanatic Party Declared a War. THROUGHOUT THE STATE, WIDESPREAD VIOLENCE WAS LET LOOSE. ————– ————one was apprehending the attacks. Unfortunately it turned out to be even more serious. —————to appease American obsession with anti-Islam movements throughout the world, the Indian group of loyal foot soldiers have indeed given fuel to the fire. There was no international coverage of the violence let loose by Shiv Sainiks which had paralyzed the city of Mumbai since last three days. And to draw further attention, innocent lives had to be sacrificed. Unquote
    Finally he concludes that when GoI is doing nothing to agitate Pakistan into a war, the war mongering Hindu fundamentalists had no better excuse than looking towards Kashmir and Mumbai.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    SECULAR FIGHTBACK – EXPOSING TENTACLES OF HINDUTVA TERROR Contd..
    III Third article is also from the rising star dealing with 26/11,although he uses the term “Mumbai blasts”. http://www.saswat.com/blog/mumbai_blasts_2008.html
    Quote: Rationale Behind Mumbai Blasts: Who Benefits? November 11, 2008 – the day of victory of Anti-Terrorism Squad against Hindu Terrorism- happened two weeks before the latest Mumbai Bomb Blasts.
    JUST WHEN THE WORLD OPINION WAS ABOUT TO BE RESHAPED FOLLOWING THE UGLY FACE OF HINDU TERRORISM BEING OFFICIALLY EXPOSED, the foreign nationals – the supposedly Muslim-fearing American and British citizens – were attacked in Mumbai. JUST WHEN THE HINDU “SAINTS” WERE GOING TO BE DECLARED TERRORISTS, some Muslim youths were once again arrested in the center of commercial capital as accused of the blasts. ————————- Just when the Anti-Terrorism Squad captured the accused for investigations to find out the masterminds (going by the past blasts, who were going to be the Hindu supremacists), ATS chief and nation’s most beloved police officer Karkare was mysteriously killed. The fact that Karkare had received death threats from BJP activists, the Hindu terrorist groups and his wife could be interrogated for further information about the letters, Karkare was converted into a national hero and declared to be dead while fighting Islamic terrorism! Unquote
    Sadly, he concludes at the end: Quote Indian Hindu terrorism has once again been shoved into obscurity by once again successfully shifting blame on Pakistan. Unquote

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    I think Manas Chakravarty had it nailed on Liberhan last Sunday HT, edit page.

    I think this report should be thought of as the learned Judge’s attempt to write a complex mystery full of misleading clues, puzzles and anagrams like Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code. He has however produced one big yawn unlike Dan Brown; the total number of searches for Liberhan have not crossed 100K on Google. To put it in context, Liberty shoes has 7 million searches ;-)

    The interesting thing with Da Vinci Code was that it spawned an industry where folks outdid each other in
    - explaining the Da Vinci Code
    - producing guidebooks for all the places referenced in the book
    - debunking the Da Vinci Code.. and so on.
    The industry feeding off DVC is not small; you could argue, that is even bigger than the DVC itself.
    I think we are witnessing a similar phenomenon with Liberhan.
    The government should now do the “right thing” with Liberhan and pension him off so that he is not tempted to lead another commission of enquiry. I hope the Government listens to my humble secular appeal. After all the cost of paying pension to the judge is likely to be a lot less than 8 crores which is the minimum that will be spent should the judge decides on being in employment again.
    The parallel industry of lazy hacks and earnest secularists will continue to make hay; thus making the parallel with Dan Brown complete.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish –

    Quite funny ..

    We just had a by-election for the local assembly seat in Kannur. And, guess what – Center sent battalions of security forces (paramilitary) to ensure violence did not break out between UDF (Congress) and LDF (Marxists).

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “The government should now do the “right thing” with Liberhan and pension him off so that he is not tempted to lead another commission of enquiry.”

    Dear Ashish,

    I am curious to know as to what you think should be done to the accused? Meaning the Sanghis and the political leaders, like the murderer LKA and others?

    I remember that were very angry at the ambassador of SA walking away from the place where the president was sitting or some such episode.

    Assuming you consider the death of innocents in riots which followed , which was an obvious off-shoot of the Babri masjid destruction, a greater crime than the ambassadors walking away, would you agree that these people should be punished? Or do you think that we should forgive the perpetrators?

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Absolutely !!

    If law was broken in Ayodhya (I am sure some law was !) and an FIR was filed, those who are responsible and proved guilty in a court of law will get punished.

    If the courts find LKA guilty for riots, then he should be punished for that too. Are we even debating this ?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @K
    The argument is that commission or no commission, evidence or no evidence, court case or not, LKA must be hanged. Why? Because, ah well, nothing else can do..
    If establishing the facts behind the demolition and appropriating responsibilities was the objective, Liberhan has frankly left all of us confused.
    One definitely needed better and yes, the rule of law must be respected and established. If in a court of law, LKA or Vajpayee or whoever is found guilty, I hope they are punished. Problem is, the government is not even willing to bring a chargesheet. So, unless you try LKA under some other country’s laws, he can’t be hanged.
    Not satisfactory to Bobby.. or to Zia. Acually, I think more than the punishment, the media circus is what appealsto them.

  • Ashish

    @Gopi,
    Perhaps Shashi Tharoor will again write a novel with the backdrop being this “eternal conflict” between the modern day Pandavas and Kauravas.
    @Bobby,
    I am touched that you care what I think. It only matters what you think; so do what you think will release the maximum venom from your system.
    So, LKA is a murderer (so, I understand is GWB, BHO… matter of fact all American presidents since time immemorial)..
    Is the Saudi Ambassador getting honorary citizenship of India yet so that we can honour him with a BHarat Ratna next year?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Yes I think LKA is a murderer. Any one who commits an action, with the full knowledge that his actions would lead to the death of innocents, is a murderer. I think thats a simple and un-controversial definition.

    Regarding, GWB, well it should not matter what I think. If you take a poll through out the world and look at what public opinion is on his being a murderer…you will get an overwhelming ‘YES’ to your question.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ahish @ Bobby

    What one thinks is basically immaterial and inconsequential. There are laws; laws are well defined and specific; and in a court of law, LKA will be let go. There simply is not a case.

    Regarding GWB – we all get confused by the role (or power) of United Nations, world perception of US President vs US perception of US President etc. George BUsh got reelected second time. The present concensus in US , if I can believe what i read, is that Obama may not get reelected, partly because they perceive him too much of an inrenationalist, appeasing to other countries, not exerting American exceptionalism.

    We are taught in our high school classes that VK Krishna Menon made the longest (5 hours or so) speech ever in UN — Anybody cares for UN? Definitely US does not; and unfortunately, that is what counts, even now.( Who knows how it will be if they cannot recover from their economic decline..) UN is one of the organizations considered in the lowest esteem by US populace according to surveys. They believe UN runs on their money supporting all those tinpot dictators. I Ibelieve Senator Mccain has floated an idea of a separate union of democratic nations – US, UK, European nations, Israel, India, Mexico, Canada, etc, and it is getting momentum with the think tanks of USA. .

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    btw The rumor in political circles here is that Shashi Taroor is a US citizen (having renounced his Indian citizenship in the process), and he got his miniisterial berth because his wife is European. The local Muslim newspapers are always unearthing how he is in cohorts with Israel (his strong anti-Pakistan position means he is an Israeli puppet).

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    GWB would have been prosecuted, for teh invasion of Iraq, had the laws applied on the Nazis by the Neuremberg tribunal been applied to the US as well. This is not my opinion, its a well known and well accepted fact, even by the US legal fraternity.

    Bobby Reply:

    That post was addressed to Gopi actually.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Gopi,

    “and in a court of law, LKA will be let go…”
    I am no so sure about it.

    Rajeev Reply:

    What do you think abour Rajiv Gandhi who killed 4000 people?

    Those people were not muslims so probably they don’t qualify for your symapathy.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Are you implying that “these people” being muslim, disqualifies them from getting YOUR sympathies?

    Rajeev Reply:

    I guess you are trying to be smart in hiding your real sympathies. For people like you everything muslim becomes important.

    I have no sympathy for you or your muslims because you don’t deserve it. Your poeple are cause of all the grief that world is facing today.

    I won’t be surpised to find educated muslims involved in more terror strikes becaue even education can not change muslims. You are fit to live in a pit.

  • L Mirza

    40 plus children (all Muslims) were murdered yesterday at the military mosque in Rawalpindi during the Friday Khutbah. While the maulavi was doing his Athan, believers, and strong (or non?) believers heeded the prayer call. Obviously, the strong (or non?) believers started shooting.

    Now, this happened in the military garrison. Obviously, some in the army must still be collaborating with the extremist fundamentalists.

    This menace is not just a Pakistani issue. Its winds are blowing everywhere. The renewed American push will make these ******* cowards to cross the border. They do have many sympathizers here.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    DJJS/Ludhiana = Why would police allow these guys for meeting/procession, especially when the visiting chief had proclaimed he is Guru Nanakh? That too so clsoe to the Babri anniversary!

    Do we have total morons running these law and order departments?

    Is it time to curtail “freedom of organizing, processions, speech etc…

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    While Bharat Ratna for Saudi Ambassdor may be a bit early, what we as in our Government thinks about SA’s stance on freedom of religion was on view yesterday. The topic of debate was growing Islamophobia as seen in Swiss Minaret ban. The participant was the Great Secular Mr Mani Shankar Aiyar (I know he isn’t exactly govt. Know but in any case he won’t have to clarify)and it was truely comforting to listen what he had to say about SA vis-a-vis Europe. Either Ndtv or CNN IBN. I am trying to see if I can find transcript.
    Rabid Hindus who were perhaps begining to suspect their beliefs would have been reassured. BTW this man had publicly declared his secular purity by stating I broke my sacred thread, married not just a non bramhin but a non-hindu and ate Beef. Time for a Life time achievement award”

    There was another test designed by an IEexpress columnist (perhaps caomi kappor) a couple of days ago: Will you agree to your daughter marrying a Muslim? (Yeah, Christian, Sikh etc. won’t do)

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish @SKS

    Well, the secularist was in Riyadh two weeks ago as teh chief guest for Aligarh Boys Alumni meet. He boasted that 30 PAkistanis ahd come to India to attend his daughter’s wedding. (Obviously he is smart to connect Aligarh and Pakistan!) he also said that “Hindus and Miuslims have fought mnay wars toget5her in India (must eb his Cambridge and Doon education!)

    He also said peope should not spend energy on Somnath temple or Babri..

    He also said most of the Pakistanis want good relations with India. (I just do not understand why he was focusing so much on Pakistan in an Aligarg Students meeting)

    Long live secularism!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS/ Gopi
    If only MSA (Money @Saudi Arabia) understands that he is behind times..
    eating beef to become secular.. heck, what about pork? Or dog for that matter; Koreans love dog-meat, so do many Chinese. And, poor Gandhij (the original MKG, not Rahul), being a confirmed vegetarian, would have failed this test comprehensively.
    Breaking his sacred thread.. let him suggest that Manmohan Singh is not secular because he keeps long hair, does not shave and so on… what rubbish

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Mirza
    What is Khutbah?

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish
    And the Perks may include having the likes of Aishwarya Rais arranged for you (even my kinds are not ruled out, I am told Harivansh Rai Bachhan was a Kayastha!!)

    Ashish Reply:

    well so was Swami Vivekanananda (Narendra Nath Datta) and Subhash Chandra Bose and S N Bose (of the Bose Einstein fame).. as was Michael Madhusudan Dutt and the noted freedom fighter Kshudiram Bose and Rishi Aurobindo (Ghosh)..
    you have much to be ashamed of… so many eminent personages who would not have been what they turned out to be were it not for their trampling Dalits under their feet…

    Ashish Reply:

    and… how could I forget, Amartya Sen, Jyoti Basu….

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish@SKS

    The discussions on the judge’s report is a gift that goes on giving..Now they say that Dec 6th was chosen by the kar sevaks as a snub against Dr Ambedkar (for his birthday falls on Dec 6th).
    Also, they have two strikes against Dr manmohan Singh. It seems he had addressed Vajpayee once as “Bhishma Pitamah”. And because he was a minister in Rao’s cabinet, he is guilty by association. But addressing Vajpayee as Bhishma Pitamah was an unpardonable act, so say sSecularists .

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SKS
    It is the Friday sermon given by a Khateeb (“learned man”); can be the Mullah too… It can also be also can be the “religious” advice/ speeches given on special occasions – say a three day revival/religious meeting, or a meeting of “scholars” etc.
    Syed is right in thes ense the rabble rousers are from Sunni Orthodox (most of the Indian Sunni Muslims are “migrating” to this, thanks to KSA initiatives)

    Rajeev Reply:

    I as a hindu is ready to marry muslim womEn and will produce n number of Hindu Kids.
    Now can that be called secular? or Is giving away hindu women to muslim men for copulation is only way to become secular?

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Can Muslims prove they are secular by eating Pork ?

    this statements by some Hindus that they are secular by eating beef is such stupidity.
    Well most hindus are stupid from standing up for their religious beliefs/rights, so these statements are not surprising..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I was tricked into eating beef by some christians and sikhs FRIENDS. They has a good laugh but as I am from Sufi background, it did not bother me.
    Now I make it a point to eat pork infront of every muslim. I even offer them french fries with same hands. Let them understand how others feel.

    Today I am secular because I eat everything right from beef to prok to quails but I am not a insecure communal like muslims who keep worrying about Halal even in their sleep.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Pl. read “Christian and muslim friends”.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Mirza
    Are you comparing the no of mosques to no of temples? Let me tell you there is no comparison and it is across the Board. Whether terror organisations, terror attacks, riots, everything and so it should be in a secular country.

    So Hindus have their own Al Qaeda, Let, Taliban in the form of RSS, BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal, shri ram sene, sanathan sanstha, abhinav bharat (list is endless) and we know these are Giants when compared with pygmies like AlQaeda, LeT, Taliban.
    While they have TTAs (terror training agreements) with ISI, our Giants have roped in the ultimate, the MOSSAD!
    Although these Hindu Terrorists are very slow on uptake and therefore despite the formidable reputation of MOSSAD, these guys have ended up bombing themselves a bit too often (latest was Goa, before that Nanded, and before that in Vashi and once in UP). This is why for 26/11 Mossad Guys took the operations in their own hands and the results are stunning. (In a brilliant piece of investigative journalism, Mossad guys were photographed shaking hands with saffron clad sadhus and this was just before 26/11). To get an idea about the range of objectives that were successfully achieved in 26/11, refer to the link I have given above.

    Be that as it may, we need to be extra concerned about the Hindu Terror, because of three reasons (apart from Hindus being the majority):
    1. Their control over the media, infiltration in all law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
    2. Riot Management expertise
    3. Their ability to project a ideologically fluid outer core hiding a solid fascist core inside, nimble footwork and lasting power.

    The first two are well known. Best example of their fluid ideology managment is their current alliance with Zionist forces. Remember the Jew genocide in Europe drew its primary inspiration from Bramhinic ideology (a clarification Bramhan, Hindu and Upper Caste Hindu are interchangeable) . So jews, who were among Bramhin’s worst victims are now their best friends.

    This has by now been patented. To oppress one over long periods of time and if the oppressed prove their might by surviving then bring them to your own side. Recent example is Narendra Modi, himself a Dalit or OBC is now a front line soldier of Bramhins.

    Most HEART WRENCHING story is that of Ms. AISHWARAYA RAI which I came to know a couple of days ago from http://dalitnation.wordpress.com/2007/12/14/aishwarya-rai-a-victim-of-brahmin-conspiracy/
    It is a MUST READ for all of us.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    Ek dum jhakaas… I am engrossed..
    Please also read (in the same blog) “why I am not a Hindu” to understand the intellectual hosepower behind some of the learned comments on this blog.
    Raat abhi jawaan hai.. boss, whatta site!

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SKS @Ashish

    Ask Aiyar (U should know when he does not spell it as Iyer = either he believes in “Vastu” or he is a secularist!) to visit some mosques for Khutbah,, he will pee in his pants.

    My only hope is that intelligence gathering is improved; I hope Mossad is helping us; and with all his faults, Chidambaram, being a professional, will do the right job although he has to appease. (btw, although he is rich and educated abroad, there is an unhealthy anti-brahminism among his klan in TN)

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Dont know about salafi kutbas but I have attended kutbas of shia and even those of the firangi mahal people. Never heard any rabble from them.

    Incidentally mosque attendance amongst shias is the lowest amongst all muslims. Quite a lot of them attend mosque on Eid only.

    Btw, have any of you fellows ever discussed face to face, religious isues with muslims? My experiences have been very interesting….

    Ashish Reply:

    @Mirza,
    To the best of my knowledge,an Iyer spelt Aiyar only means that he is a Palghat Iyer.. matter of fact, only Palghat Iyers would have the Iyer/ Aiyar appended to their names.
    As an example, lets say some one’s name is Viswanathan Mahadevan … very typical Tam Iyer name. If the same guy was a Palghat Iyer, he would write his name as Viswanathan Mahadevan Iyer/ Aiyar..
    Gopi, am I correct?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    Well, very few Iyers (or Ayers, or Aiyars – Ramani Ayer CEO of Hartford Insurance is an Iyer) keep their last name as Iyers. Many in Kerala and Tamil Nadu dropped the “caste” last name (Iyer, Iyengar, Nair, Nampothiri, Menon, Pillai, Panicker, Nambiar etc denoting the so called “high” castes) when Mahathmaji started his movement. .

    Both Palghat Tamil Brahimns and Tamil Nadu Shaivite Brahmins use Iyer/Aiyar; although quite rarely.

    The most common naming “structure” of Kerala Iyers is their village followed by their father foirst name followed by their name. So, scientrist MS Swaminathan is Mankompu Sambasivan Swaminathan; Mankompu being his village in Kerala. TN Sheshan, the ex Election commissioner, is Tirunellai Narayana iyer Sheshan; Tirunellai being his village in Palghat.. Then, playback and gazal singer Hariharan, although a Kerala iyer, go just b y Hariharan. .

    Madurai Mani iyer, teh famous carnatic musician, is from Madurai, Tamil Nadu.

    I should give my few cents on Brahmin oppression – Palghat Brahmins never had any land holdings; never had business interests, never got involved in politics. They just studied, learned, and accomplished. It is simply unbelievable how many contributors who added to the national wealth (real wealth as well as knowledge and discourse and music and and) came from that small group!

    Sam, Reply:

    Internet, blogs in a way a wonderful medium.

    face to face criticism of islam in front of muslim could be stupidity on the part of criticizer.
    Unless the person does not care about their physical safety, people should be refrained from face-to-face criticism with muslims, as the consequences could be unpredictable.

  • K

    @Bobby

    This may help throw some light on the bigger question –

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2004/08/08/summary-of-the-historical-question-ram-janmabhoomi/

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    thanks for the link. Thankfully , I did not need to read it at all, because at the very beginning it says:

    “An excellent piece and a robust defence of “Ram Janmabhoomi” – From “Ayodhya and After” by Koenraad Elst”

    KOENRAAD ELST!!!!! I dont need to read works of crack pots like Elst and Gautier. They are not serious scholars.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Please point me to some of your work – I’d be happy to read the findings from some ‘real scholars’.

    Also, please enlighten me on your criteria for who a ‘real scholar’ is.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    According to Bobby, Syed Shahbuddin, Osama Bin Laden and Kamal Farukhi are real Neutral scholars.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Well, the anniversary of Babri Masjid issue went off without any problems. People expected outbursts because the stupid report came out. [We shouild thank our Muslim countrymen that they did not provoke anything. It shows a maturity.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why should we thank muslims for being peaceful?
    They should be grateful that Hindus are ready to accept them as equals despite all their past and present actions.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Rajeev

    It is admirable that they did not start any riot because of the timing of the publication -few weeks before the anniversary. Hopefully all can focus and work together towards our common progress; there is so much to do, rather than this constant issue of “complaints”. Hope our Muslim brothers will focus on educating their children and make them participants of a growing india

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You give me an impression that you are scared of MUSLIM Bully.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Well, no. But we have larger issues, make the country prosperous and safe; and build a nation potentially taking US place- vibrant, innovative, peopel of all different backgrounds contributing, etc etc.. Hopefully the distractions will settle down; i hope

    Rajeev Reply:

    If you don’t save nation from these muslim zealots, there will be no nation to develop.
    The security of nation comes first and everything else later.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    Why I am not a Hindu?
    Now I know why we are so Bad in breeding technology (excl. Human form)

    Ekdam rap chich item, It is getting better and better, who knows after all, you might end up as a Believer, the Hindu type.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    SKS

    Update on terrorism – Swiss Minarat Situation

    An interesting, frightening NY times article about minarets, Europe, Eurabia.. and tthe major disconnect between leaders-administration and people.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/opinion/07douhat.html

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    sorry the link is

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/opinion/07douthat.html

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Raju

    Quite revealing and frightening. The issues are quite similar here, although there is no immigration issue here (unless we include the Bengla Deshi illegal immigration in this).

    Our leaders appeasing for viote banks without considering the public wants draws a parallel with the European leaders enacting “good” bills bypassing the public. Europe is at crosoroads with potential calamiyous outcomes; I would say we also should expect the worst and plan for it.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    scary…
    this is what we are heading for.. with M@SA and his ilk acting as the pied piper..
    welcome to Ind-abia

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi/Mirza/Ashish
    Aaah, it turns out that Mr. Money @Saudi Arabia ( Aiyer’s ) is far more accomplished than I thought and go all the way back to the SOUL of INDIAN SECULARISM:

    Some excerpts from a news article at http://sundaytimes.lk/090823/Plus/plus_01.html:

    Quote: By the time he was finished with college, Aiyar had firmly established himself as something of a RADICAL, JOINING THE MARXIST SOCIETY. However, it was a bad time to have even the most tenuous connections with communism in India, especially if like Aiyar you were planning on sitting for the Civil Service exams. The Sino-Indian war which began in June that year was triggered by what was widely recognized as an unprovoked attack by the Chinese on the Indian borders, and the outcome was uncertain. A friend, thinking it a good joke, sent him a telegram that read “All good wishes for success in the Chinese administrative exam.” Though Aiyar did pass, opting for the Indian Foreign Service (IFS), his ambitions were overturned when INDIAN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES DENOUNCED HIM AS A MEMBER OF THE BRITISH COMMUNIST PARTY.

    Aiyar rushed back to Delhi and did all that he could to get himself reinstated. On his first evening back, his mother took him to visit her old landlord and his referee – India’s second President, Dr. Radhakrishnan. Later the matter would be satisfactorily solved by an even more illustrious personage – a note was delivered to the concerned authorities which read ‘I have heard good reports of Mani Shankar Aiyar. He may be taken into the foreign service.’ It was SIGNED JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, 23rd October, 1963. Still, for several years to come Aiyar remained suspect – “I think the IB [Intelligence Bureau] ultimately came to the conclusion that I was indeed a Marxist…but of the Groucho variety.”
    Unquote

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Ah, but, remember, he was only an impressionable young lad in his early twenties.. can’t hold that against him

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Of course, moreover Mr Nehru had heard good reports about his work with some communist party whose work could only be related to social, literary, artistic scientific, or sports etc, unlike say RSS or VHP or Jamat-e-islami who are so Political .

    Remember India is a Secular Country and Communism is not a religion! & the laws (for conduct of members of Services , not sure abt IFS, but would likely be meaner) only ban association with POLITICAL parties or organizations taking part in politics!!

    BTW, there used to be some interesting rules for those officers who were (or planning to be ) married to a foreigner and SENSITIVE posts were out of their scope!!

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    There was a Fabian society — all the so called intellectuals and secularists were members of that.

    While nobody can see the future and everybody works with the seemingly best options one has – I have started wondering whether Nehru sacrificed the country (not willingly) for three generations of poverty. Could he have unleashed the Indian entrepreneuralism? Why didnt he listen to Rajaji? Did he think there was a leg for the non-aligned movement? Could they have done anything? Of course, admiration is there for his building of national institutions and his “modern temples”. And, I do not think he would have wanted Indira Priyadarshini as the leader, were he alive. (Obviously Indira will remain one of the shrewdest politicians in India; she had the foresight to keep the Gandhi last name, because she knew people will consider her as the legitimate heir to Gandhiji. I believe, if a survey is taken now, a majority of Indians below 40 will say Indira Gandhi is the daughter of Mahatma Gandhi.

  • Bobby

    “Though Aiyar did pass, opting for the Indian Foreign Service (IFS), his ambitions were overturned when INDIAN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES DENOUNCED HIM AS A MEMBER OF THE BRITISH COMMUNIST PARTY.”

    which proves how little the intelligence service has to do with intelligence.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    All

    The big news in local papers and TV here is the arrest of one T Nazir and his brother in -law Safi on India-wide terrorism charges. He was arrested in Bengla Desh and brought to Bangalore for questioning. Police and Intelligence Dept have been after him for three years.

    This fellow is known to be the “South Indian Commander of LeT”. Got training in Pakistan. Was a member of SIMI, ISS and their later incarnations. It seems he was arrested some years ago; but Marxist ministers got involved (based on Madani, PDP Presidents influence) and he was let go. He led the Banaglore, Hyderabad, nd Ahmedabad explosions after that.

    This fellow hails only three miles from where I live. I always ask this million dollar question – why would guys like him get into these? Muslims are the richest land/property owners here in this district. They run most of the retail business. They own several hospitals;They are well off; and for all outside appearance, well-integarted because there are no “muslim” ghettoes here. They are politically involved. In the hotly contested by-election here, one Muslim guy (Abdulla Kutty) got elected to the assembly. He used to be the Marxist MP from here (representing the consyituency twice) was thrown out of the party by Marxists because he stated that Gujrat’s development policy (not human rights policy) should be an example for other states including Kerala. Congress accepted him and he won the by- election for the assembly seat.
    Oh, by the way, BJP got only 3000 votes; same as the extremist Muslim party (SDPI) got. So, BJP and Sangh Parivar are non-existent to drive them into Jehad “forcing” them to go to Pakistan for tarining against Parivar!

    Let me tell you guys, if Kannur Msulims are the foot soldiers and leaders of Jehad, then there is nothing “reformative” any state government or central govt can do that will “straighten” these guys.
    May be their strategy is to squeeze India from all the four sides. Kashmir in the North, and Kerala from the South. Assam from the East, and Gujrat from the West.

    And in Kerala, they have what they ddi not have in Kashmir – lots of money, lots of education (compared to other parts), media ownership, political party influence… This whole thing has created lots of hush hush .. is my neighbor a terrorist??

    Watch out India.. Things will get ugly before it gets better.

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    Sam, Reply:

    Maybe T Nazir was an impoverished and oppressed muslim in his previous life ?

    laughing aside…

    when russian soldiers captured parts of germany and saw the overall opulence of clean houses, full power, water, clean and nice flats…parks…

    they were astonished that why would a rich country try to take them over

    most of the russians lived in a much much materially poorer conditions ,,,

    poverty or oppression is only one side of the coin.
    arrogance or religious superiority or global domination is another side of the coin.

    maybe in kerala it could be the latter things..

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    L Mirza Reply:

    The attack that killed 40 plus children few days ago in Parade Lane Mosque (the army mosque) in Rawalpindi , Pakistan was a work of precision; pointing squarely to a connection with a few key people in the army.
    It bodes really bad for us if elements from here (such as this Nazir) are trained by the Pakistanis who are organizing these precision attacks. Be vigilant

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    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Gopi@Mirza@Sam

    The Headley aka Dawood Gilani revelations about his LeT connection fits in with the purported LeT reach worldwide.

    Looks like LeT will destroy Pakistan before it destroys other countries. So, it is in Pakistan’s own interest to eliminate this cancer, and not consider it as a strategic investment against India. For India’s part, it makes all the sense to form a security alliance with US FBI/CIA, Israeli Mossad, UK Force etc. Pakistan should be invited too; it looks like they are having second thoughts about the terrorists they bred.

    The Gilani issue parallels Gopi’s predicament – what if his native town Muslims.. This Gilani/Headley guy went to a coveted army school in Pakistan; is from an elite family in Pakistan.. So, who is the brother?

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    Raju Kurien Reply:

    I am also eagerly waiting to know more about Mahesh Bhatt/his son’s involvement with this Headley/Gilani murderer. I do not wish bad for anybody; and I hope they did any facilitation to this guy without knowing who this guy really is. But one never knows about the intentions of secularists! There is one side of me that will be quite happy if he is charged with treason.

    (Mahesh always gets Pakistani singers to sing in his movies!)

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    Rajeev Reply:

    This is the first time in years I am seeing Mahesh Bhatt on defensive.
    He was one of the first person to pass verdict in so called Malegaon blast.

    I am pretty sure the way Mahesh Butt defended his son, there is something wrong and it is making Muallhji very edgy.

    If India wants truth about Rahul Roy, let this great son of great father be interrogated by FBI.

    Bobby Reply:

    (Mahesh always gets Pakistani singers to sing in his movies!)

    aaah!!!! the ultimate sin!!!!

  • S Singh

    Mr Gopi

    I agree with your suggestion that donating the title to the place to the temple committee would have created peace and long lasting relationship between the two communities. It would have been the perfect Gandhian solution.

    What peace Muslims will have even if they win in the Supreme Court case? And why spill blood on a non-functionning mosque?

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    Rajeev Reply:

    Have you ever heard of muslims being flexible and generaous anywhere in the world?
    They have occupied temple mount and now whole muslim world want to finish off Israel.

    Hindus are blamed when they fight for Ayodhya but muslims are supported when they fight for so called occupied arab land Israel. No one lectures muslims to let go Israel.

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    S Singh Reply:

    Rajeev

    Temple Mound is “foundational” to both the monotheistic religions – Islam and Judaism Definitely Jews may have a “longer” claim because Judaism was there before Islam. Nevertheless, both groups worship there; and in that sense it is not a “dead” mosque, and will eb difficult to award to just one group. Whereas in Ayodhya, the mosque is only a title issue and not a worship issue for Muslims because they do not worship in that building. However, for Hindus, obviously, it has a huge significance.

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    Sam, Reply:

    Dont you know might is right.
    When islam was using sword/violence to capture new territories and destroying and occupying other religious places, that is fine.

    The reason is, Islam is the voice of the GOD and they should have that right.
    If anyone else uses the same tactics to reclaim their territory, they should be stopped in the name of peace and they should be denied.
    anyway only muslims have the right to use violence.

  • Raju Kurien

    TERRORISM UPDATE

    When Pakistani Msulims started blowing up subways and trainstations and airports and planes in the UK, it was attributed that something like that (terrorism by homegrown Muslims) will not happen in US because of the openness of US society and the fact that there is no separate “Muslim areas” in the US.

    Five American Muslims (of Pakistani descent) were arrested in Pakistan yesterday for terrorist activities. It seems one of them has already prepared his “farewell video”,; this boy being a Dental student in Virgiia University.

    US obviously is going to be paranoid about this; especially coming after the Msulim Major killing 15 soldiers and the arrest of the Mumbai 11/26 Gilani/Hedly. They will start investigating each and every US Muslim. All thesewhile, they were under the impression that the US openness will be a detractor; and he UK type terrorism (by Muslims born and brought up in the country) will never happen in the US! Obviosuly, they do not know much about Islam!

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  • sanjeev

    Here is a piece of islamization of India, and that too from most socially developed state of India. It seriously raises aquestion whether education works for muslims.

    Kochi: A Division Bench of the Kerala High Court on Tuesday adjourned to January 5, the hearing on a public interest petition filed by Janata Party president Subramaniam Swamy challenging the State government order according sanction for registration of an Islamic finance serving company by the Kerala State Industrial Development Corporation (KSIDC).

    When the petition came up before the Bench comprising Chief Justice S.R. Bannurmath and Justice A.K. Basheer, Dr. Swamy at the outset argued that the question whether public fund could be appropriated for favouring a particular religion in a secular country required judicial determination.

    He submitted that the setting up of a financial service company with government participation, which would follow the canon of law of a particular religion, was a clear instance of the state favouring a particular religion. He said that it was clear from the order that the company was to be set up strictly in accordance with Sharia, the canon law of Muslims. It also implied the setting up of a Sharia Advisory Board. The government order had provided that the Chief Executive Officer of the proposed company was required to report to this board. The order had made it clear that the board would have some measure of supervision over the proposed company. As per the order, 11 per cent of the equity would be held by the KSIDC. It showed the identification of the KSIDC with Islam.

    In reply to a query from the Bench, he submitted that he would produce the memorandum of association of the KSIDC to prove that the corporation was a State government undertaking. He submitted that it was apparent from the government order that it was a state-owned undertaking.

    In his petition, he pointed out that the need for equal treatment of people of different faiths was reiterated by the Supreme Court and High Courts.

    The setting up of a company with co-ownership of the State was “antithetical” to the equal treatment of all religions.

    Dr. Swamy said the government action, in compliance with the law of a particular religion, would violate Articles 14 (equality before law) and 25 (right to freedom of religion) guaranteed under the Constitution.

    (courtesy: The Hindu)

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sanjeev

    This, constituitionalities aside, in itself is not a major issue. Of course, the Marxist govt wants to appease to Muslims.

    You are right on the “social advancement/education ” issue. Last few weeks the place is roiled by the new terrorist revelations. One Muslim boy T Nazir and his coconspirator/brother in law Safi were arrested in bengla Desh and brought to Bangalore for questioning. He is the ring leader of Bangalore, Huderabad, and Ahmedabad explosions. He is supposed to be the South Indian commander of LeT; he and several of his associates got trained in Pakistan.

    12 Muslims have been arrested here in the last week in connection with this.

    This Nazir boy’ s house is only four miles from my house. we are all baffled here. Muslims are the richest people here (in Kannur district). They own most of the retail stores, timber etc business. They own most of the commercial buildings. They are educated, pretty close to the kerala metrics.

    In this acse you are right – it has nothing to do with the “liberal” education; it has everything to do with their madrasa indoctrination, and the Book.

    Do not be surprised if Kerala ebcomes another KAshmir. orthodox Sunni muslims are committed to that. The extent of cooperation between various groups, the reach of their activities, the number of people who got trained in PAkistan all point to a terrible situation to come.

    The question is whether the appeasing state and central govts will be bold enough to round up the Muslim suspects as well as perpetrators and conduct the trials swiftly. Apparently., this NAair was arrested before (before he led all the explosions ) ; and was let go at the insistence of a Marxist minister to please Madani, the President of PDP (and himself a redeemed terrorist).

    The extremist Muslim menace of Pakistan has already seeded in India. We all better be aware of it, be vigilant about it, and force our govts to act upon it, or do not be surprised if people act on it ..whether secularists scream about majority opprssion or not.

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    @ Gopi

    Not only in kerala but they go to fight in Jammu and kashmir also. Recently few under trainee terrorists were killed in encounter in Kashmir. Their body features didn’t resemble those of other kashmiri people. Then it was found out that they were keralite who had joined in kashmir for jihad.

    Here is the liknk :

    http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/12/stories/2008101254270800.htm

    This should be a slap on the face of so called marxist seculars of kerala along with human rights champions like Arundhati Roy- Angana chatterjee school of thought.

    Sometime here this enlightened lady (Angana Chatterjee ) she clearly spews venom against indian stateShe is human rights champion for kashmiri muslims only and i have never heard name of Pundits from her mouth. She is supporter of freedom of kashmir also. I doubt what prevents govt from framing charges for treason.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Does anyone think that the Marxists are oppressing Muslims in Kerala
    Because of that Kerala muslims are going and fighting in Jihad in Kashmir.

    (they would have said that, if they found Gujarati Muslims fighting in Kashmir
    that Modi’s govt oppressed them..)

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    TERRORISM UPDATE

    With the five “American” Muslim boys (3 of Pakistani descent – with one of them with his father who is also undergoing terrorist straining, one Somali and the other Egyptian descent) arrested in Pakistan on Jehadist charges, Americans are now wondering whether US Muslims are any different from European Muslims. The recent US army base attack by the Muslim Major in the army, Headleyy aka Gilani arrest, New york arrest of another Pakistani American, Denver arrest of another Pakistani American – all these are filling in and connecting dots for them .

    NYT reports that the earlier calculation by the US authorities that the US Muslims will not turn to terrorism like their European counterparts may be misfounded. They now have come to the conclusion that Muslims become terrorists because of Islam; and they were wrong in assuming that the lack of ghettoization, equal opportunities, educational advancement etc will prevent US Muslims from turning to terrorism.

    The report says family union visas will be controlled, FBI monitoring of mosques and Muslim fraternities will be strengthened

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    @ Raju

    There is no point making truth revealed to spineless morons of congress. At the end of the day these spineless chickens like maulana chidambuddin (chidambaram) will say “no religion teach terrorism. ”

    We have some hopes only on the west and israel to take to islam.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Rajeev and Mr Raju

    India will have to take this serious; these Islamists are surrounding from outside and inside..Hope government appparatus is ready to prevent as well as to react fast..we cannot have another 11/26.

    AlQueda and Pakistanis will crossover; so also BenglaDeshis, and the ones who are already in Kashmir, and now these Kerala Muslims with Pakistani and Bengla Deshi connection plus the Muslim sympathisers and extremists already inside the country.

    No room for error

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mr.Singh,
    If you want to see real character of muslims, you should live amongst them. Many of them are pakitanis at heart. This is a known fact but Indians suffer from ostrich mentality.
    I dread for the day when muslims will be 30% of Indian population. So time has come to tame these people and if we have to take help of US, China and Israel so be it.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Rajeev

    Well, extremism is bad for any. Muslims will always try to justify their aggression, destruction, terrorism, backwardness etc on their “discrimination”; the challenge is to make sure our politicians do not fall for that sh– and lead the country without comnsideration of the vote bank.

    Sam, Reply:

    where was the discrimination when Bin Qasim attacked Sindh in 8th century ?
    where was the discrimination when Ghori and Ghazni attacked India ?

    where was the discrimination when Babur attacked Delhi ?

  • http://freeblogtool.com/beachpropertysaleitaly/ Wilburn Restrepo

    I understand that but where does it take us?

    It’s like deja vu all over again. :)

    [Reply]

  • Shakthi Rao_007

    hey..can u give me the citation of the tamil nadu case?

    [Reply]

  • Ram Putre Singh

    WHY, IS MAYAWATI SO PRETTY OR IS SHE SO RAPEABLE, CONSIDERING HER LOOKS OF A PIG, AND HER SIZE OF A ELEPHANT, THAT SHE SHOULD BE OFFERED A CRORE TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO BEING RAPED. SHE HAS RAPED ALL IN UP AND DESERVES TO BE RAPED BY A ORANG UTAN, A DONKEY, A DOG, AND AN ELEPHANT

    [Reply]

  • vic778899 tor

    History shows that Gandhis do not have a Hindu lineage. Gyasudin (Motilal’s father) changed his name to Gangadhar when on the run from the British. Nehru bears no resemblance to Motilal. Nehru was not fathered either by Mobarrak Ali (the lawyer) or Nawab of Oudh. Nehru was circumcised at birth and grew up in the household of Nawab of Oudh. Nehru was educated in Urdu, Farsi and English. That’s why most of his speeches are in English. Indira Gandhi eloped with Feroze Khan and converted to Islam to marry him. Indira became Maimuna Begum. Rajiv was fathered by Feroze and Sanjay was fathered by Mohamad Yunus. After Rajiv’s death, Sonia has with the blessings of congress cronies simply hijacked the party and the nation. Sonia hates Hindus and she has enticed congress men to convert with large sums of money and positions of power. Look what she has done to North East India. Temples are destroyed openly and priests killed with total impunity. Indian media is so controlled by foreigners and congress henchmen that not much gets to most Indians.

    [Reply]

  • annu singh

    Always remember Walmart and its look alike is not doing any good in any of the country stated above. So how will it benefit India. In India we are very cost consious, I purchase mostly from 2 kms away vegetable market than supermarket at 50 mtrs.
    Remember one person going out of job will lead to one member more to the looters club.

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  • KALYAN DHALL

    I beg to differ with Mr. Arnab Mitra on some basic fundamentals viz.
    1) For organised retail which stands to benefit the producer and the consumer, FDI is not mandatory. AMUL – GCMMF model is proof of that.
    2) Elimination of middle-men in today’s Indian society cannot be envisaged till the entire political culture of India undergoes a sea change. Let’s not forget, if the rule of the law is allowed to prevail, then 80% of our so called leaders, irrespective of their political affiliation, will be rotting in jails for the rest of their lives.
    3) China cannot be an example to emulate in any sphere due to Indian socio-economic environment as there are no common traits whatsoever.
    4) Most importantly, whether Congress has the people’s mandate to implement such an important policy decision is hugely questionable.

    [Reply]

  • Abu Ahmed

    We have built-in some safeguards while allowing FDI in retail in, let us build some more in order to make sure that there will be more of beneficial and less or adversarial effects on our economy and people.

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  • ssraja

    Sir let the FDI come .Because these middle men r looting the farmers for centuries in this country .what farmer earns in farming for the work for a year
    a broker makes in a minute.the sad part is that a farmer dosn’t have proper dhoti ,where as a middle man moves in a mercedes .the country’s middle men have made lot of money and they r dictating terms.let the farmer see good days.

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