Hindustan Times
Like Socialism, Islam Has a PR Problem
Socialism and Islam both have a PR problem: a permanent rarefaction problem. Both look antiquated and suspicious.
Even as faith in free markets falters, socialism’s best goal — people-before-profits — belongs in the historical dustbin. Islam’s humane principles of self-introspection and socialist goals of a greedless economy have hit a similar cul-de-sac.
An alternative to unbridled capitalism — Communists say it can only be socialism — was the talking point at the 11th International Meeting of Communist and Workers’ Parties that concluded in Delhi on Sunday, November 22.
Yet, socialism has only a slim chance really, with no real challenge to capitalism. “People say ‘good you are voicing our rights, but (what’s) bad (is), you are a communist’,” 26-year-old Norwegian, Federik Roe Brevig, of the Communist Party of Norway told me.
As I talked to socialists from the world over, I could hear them articulate some of their concerns, which were precisely Islam’s problems as well.
Islam’s image problem is equally serious. People want Islamic seminaries raided to see if they house terrorists, just in case. Like I said, if you have an image problem, you look suspicious to others.
It took more than just Voltaire, the fierce Deist, for Christianity to have its Reformation. It also needed Martin Luther’s “priesthood of all believers” and the European Enlightenment.
The Muslim World rightly needs to reconcile its religion, Islam, with modern realities. If Muslims don’t like being dictated to, then they must act. They can delay acting on two fronts only at their peril. One, what can Muslims do to address the deplorable acts committed in Islam’s name, like terrorism? Two, what can Muslims do to address choices encountered by Muslims in a new world, like those relating to education, divorces, marriages and, disadvantages and injustice?
I believe one can remain faithful to the immutable principles of Islam, based on scriptural sources, and at the same time take into account the evolving historical and geographical contexts.
The clergy often slips up because while their orientation allows them to stick to the immutable principles, they cannot account for evolving historical and geographical contexts, since they understand little of the latter. Relating two things requires an understanding of both.
So, we as Muslims must rise to the occasion. Reconciling Islam with modern values involves the understanding that Islam does contain and has place for these values in the first place. Rejecting the extreme ‘either/or’ situation is possible in Islam.
The European Enlightenment was led in part by an eclectic group of French thinkers in the middle of the 18th century: the philosophes. The philosophe movement centred round three basic ideas: Progress, Deism and Tolerance.
There are more than just echoes of these ideas in Islam. Philosophe progress entailed a) knowledge as a tool of progress b) overcoming ignorance c) overcoming human cruelty and violence through social improvements.
Deism was a term coined in the philosophe movement and denoted, in part, that religion should result in the highest moral behaviour of its adherents.
Thirdly, ‘philosophe tolerance’ reasons that a fair, just and productive society depends on religious tolerance.
Muslims, more than others, know that many patently Islam concepts run close to these themes. Do not the opening chapters of the Quran enjoin the Prophet to read? Does not Islam call upon adherents to first and foremost lead a spiritual life wedded to scruples? Is there not a specific verse in the Quran than calls for qualified respect of an unbeliever? (La kum deenukum wali’adin or Unto you your religion, unto me, mine).
However, humanist and reformist ideas of Islam are increasing becoming more and more rarefied.
At the Communist meet, Brazilian delegate Eduardo Gonsalves said capitalism would not go just because people are frustrated. “Socialism needs an action plan.” This needs to be replicated. Islam needs an action plan too.
We must start by asking some basic questions. What are the issues that we can negotiate, not with non-Muslims but among ourselves? It is imperative to have an intra-Islamic dialogue first, followed by a dialogue with non-Muslims.
Some of the worst forms of terrorism and a general misunderstanding of Islamic concepts have caused Islam and Muslims to be seen as a threat.
We as Muslims must create a positive presence wherever we go and whatever we do. We must reject all attempts — by Muslims and non-Muslims – to portray Islam as a radical religion and must be able to refute their views. At the same time, we must confront forces that play up fear of Islam to promote hard-line policies that aim to deny Islam a place in society.
Muslims must compete for public space and positions. And in doing so, they must be able to take a stand against radicals, reject use/misuse of religion to perpetrate acts against humanity.
Muslims must learn to distinguish between social, religious and political problems and not lump together political Islam, radical political Islam and Islamism. They must also be able to assert that Islam’s first and foremost requirement is a just society and spiritual way of life.
Confident Muslims are those who have a sound understanding of our evolving society. For this, critical thinking has no alternative. Our destiny is in our hands alone.
(9 votes, average: 4.33 out of 5)
Loading ...Posted by Zia Haq on Sunday, November 22, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Filed under Religion · Tagged Communist Party, Communists, free market, International Meeting of Communist and Workers' Parties, Islam, permanent rarefaction, philosophe movement, Socialism
Zia,
Agree 100% with your concluding paragraph.
That the followers of the Prophet who said “go far away, even to China, to procure knowledge” , will become disconnected with and from knowledge - is the root of everything that Islam faces. The golden age died so soon because of the power play of Mullahs,. That the Mullahs will continue their power unabated for 900 plus years is something an outsider finds unbelievable to comprehend. No other control system has had this much hold, and that too corroding and corrupting, over so many people for so long!
I want to bring the attention of our participants to a survey taken in Pakistan recently. A survey of young Pakistanis, 18-29 in age, conducted for the British Council by the Nielson Reserach company published its reports yesterday. The conclusions are:
-Young Pakistanis overwhelmingly see themselves as Muslims first, and Pakistanis second. Three quarters identified as Muslims first,a nd only one in seven identifying themselves as Pakistani (this throws some light into why Taliban/terrorism etc is not viewed as a threat by many ordinary Pakistanis)
- 25% could not read or write.
- only a third believed democracy is the right system for Pakistan
- a third favoured Islamic Law/Sharia absed system.
- Only 10% said they were inteersted in the politics/political happenings of Pakistan
- 35% said they were not at all interested in the politics of Paakistan
-60% said they trusted the military 9the highest trrust organization theer)
- 50% trusted religious institutions.
- Only 10% trusted government.
Interesting….-
[Reply]
Spiegel Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:31 am
Hey Thomas,
Do you have same statistics for India, I am pretty sure it would not be much different or may be worse. anyway you are well informed guy, and you must know it. look at it objectively.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:27 am
Spiegel
I am not aware of similar surveys in India specifically aimed at Muslims.
Howevr, a general survey of young iIdians (typical sample, no religuious bias) rwas done few months ago; and young Indians in genetral were one of the most happiest and optimistic in the world.
Gopi
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VARUN SAXENA Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I think belief in democracy in INDIA will be unquestionable barring a few pockets. There is no disbelief in Democracy in INDIA.
In Addition , in INDIA barring Muslims nobody has any real fascination with religious laws…
Anyways many things in religious laws like Sharia are a piece of ****.
So that is where INDIA does not match with Pakistan
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Ajay Kaushik Reply:
January 11th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Good,
Yes we believe in a system , we are getting equal rights , we encourage our women, none of senior ladies in my family belonged to a metro city , yet they were give a change to study , so it’s not only metros where progress is being made . Issue are their in every country , but there are people in India for whom religion comes first , then India , that’s the biggest irony.
If sharia can produce the conglomerates like Reliance , Wockhardt, Tata , Videocon , Ambuja , Sighanias and other countless industrial houses , india boasts of ,then I would like to get sharia enable in pakistan for next 3000 years , because it was a dream of their national proud Zia Ul Haque(Killed in Air accident), even Taliban tried to enact Shria in Afghanistan , Iran and Iraq should also do it , however no one should try in India , it started in 725 AD , and failed in 1857 AD after relentless efforts of several dynasties ruling over India .This is the dream of Taliban in India , sorry they have to produce at least 60 million suicide bombers to finish the other races, else it’s not possible .
Some times it’s necessary to shed blood for inacting peace.
[Reply]
S Singh Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
thomas/ziaz
The survey indicates disturbing info; however, also points to a possible solution.
“move them one step up or one step down” - 90% of pakistanis consider themselves Muslims first before considering themselves Pakistanis (by deduction, in a Muslim minority country, it may be 100%?). So, take that thought and develop into “one world” concept instead of one religion; or make them come down one step and focus on their country -its progress, people etc.
No wonder why extremism and terrorism find a fertile mind among Muslims. Assuming this survey’s key findings (such as an overwhelming percentage identify themselves as Muslims and anything else very distant second) is universally applicable to all Muslims, one should not be surprised their disdain for countries, people, systems, belief systems and institutions of government. One should not be surprised about their willingness to go to distant lands and wage wars on behalf of Muslims.
So the challenge is to undo the Islamness. It is not just a PR makeover!
[Reply]
Bla Bla Bla Bla……nothing’s goona change…
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socialism and islam have much more than a pr problem
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K Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Agree absolutely !!
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Non muslims do not care about islam if there are no crimes committed for Allah.
As long as there are no muslim terrorists, who cares what islam does internally.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
@Sam
We should care about; however the initiatives and effort should come from Muslims; nobody else can do anything. Zia finally has acknowledged the issue; although he is minimizing it as a PR issue. It is a content issue and not a messaging issue.
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Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 12:57 am
By caring, what difference are outsiders making ?
Just caring is not enough.
muslims are not going to listen from outsiders anyway.
actually it only hurts the cause, as they are less receptive to the same idea if it comes from outside versus, if they themselves came up with the idea..
Either you do it brute force, or just stop thinking about muslims.
(like british abolished slavery in Saudi arabia, by brute force).
it is better to stop thinking about muslim issues and think of a way to give them incentives to emigrate.
Given a choice, muslims want to live in an islamic society..
so let us make their dream, turn to reality.
If it is done with incentives and carrots, it is a win-win situation.
Like denmark is doing.
like UK did by making people emigrate to australia.
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Islam doesn’t just look antiquated and Muslim thump that antiquity as USP. As per Islam our thinking faculty got frozen in seventh century and norevision to any code dealing with our life is warranted.
I have always wondered why Allah will freeze things all of a sudden. Sam allah who kept on sending prophest after prophets one fine day decides it’s enough. I ask why.
I have gotten varied answers
(1) Other books got corrupted
My Retort: So can Quran after all the mode of arrival of even Quran is same. allah sends a messneger that is an Angel and that Angel delivers the messae to a prophet and tat prophet tells it to people.. And those people afetr prophet is long gone decide to collate his words in a book.. Just look at the number of nodes where corruption could creep in. By contrast chrstians have less nodes God talks directly to Jesus and he tells it to people.
Muslims then retort that actually allah gave followers of prophet impeccable memory hence the followers could not have corrupted the code. Fine but this assertion insults the intelligence of Allah who took around 120 thousand trial and error yes that’s how many prophets allah sent before it occurred to him that he could give his followers great memory that way it will nto be corrupted. Any half decent guy coudl think thsi through in one trial and error. Anyway let su assume that they got good memmory this time. How about prophet’s memory because we have seen how being pointed that his new assertiosn contradict with old one prophet says in that case new rules supersede.. Now again question arises in my logical mind . After 120 thosuand trials Allah still has not made up his mind and hence this contradictory codes .
Bottomline there is nothing in mode of arrival of Quran which exudes more confidence in its falliblity than any other book previously sent by allah. yet Muslism claim this code is final and can;t be comrpomised.. This is classic antiquity in the desing of quran.> i wonder why are you attributing this antiquity to the appearance .. Appearance is not at all erroneous it actualy shows it for what it is.
Having said all this if all your recommendations do get implemented there certainly is hope for Islam.
I in many people’s view a rabble rouser for my strong views love the islamic culture. I love sufi music I love urdu perian poetry , what i detest is the arrogant assertion innhrent in islam that everyone is wrong and they are right . hence everyone is hell bound..Even chrstians believe that but they are not in your face assering that all the time..
here is wishing good luck with content make-over.. Since if your content is right image makeover comes on its own.
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Irfan Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Allah delivered a message to mankind and said that he perfected His message, so then who are we to change it. Look at human laws – due to the lack of comprehensive understanding, they keep changing. Like the law of nature, as in the past, today too a seed will grow into a plant the same way it did millions of years ago. What I mean to say is, God is our creator – He knows us inside out. His word doesn’t need to adapt to the way humans live.
I have a question for you – assuming you are working these days, why did you stop going to school? Why not continue studying forever? This is because you got your lessons to be able to get out and apply that knowledge for your benefit i.e. make a living. Why didn’t you do that after you passed your 1st standard or say 5th standard? Why do so after graduation? That is because your knowledge grew as you progressed through school and post graduation you were ready to use that knowledge for your benefit. Similarly, the earlier prophets tried to prepare mankind to receive the final message throughout the years – the message was the same throughout – that there is One God worthy of worship. Another analogy – say you have a child – you keep telling her not to do something repeatedly – and let’s say that something may harm her. Wouldn’t you finally do something to stop her from harming herself or would you continue telling her to stop? Think about it.
You are trying to compare God, His angel and His messenger like everyone else – I know what you’re talking about – it’s a lesson we learnt in communication management that the message will no longer resemble the original as it passes from one person to another. There is a lot of research done on the authenticity of the Koran – you can look it up on the internet – the various ways in which the message was recorded verbally and in written before it was compiled in a book. Also read the Bible carefully – not all of whats in the Bible is God’s word to Jesus. Each Gospel is as per its writer and not as per Jesus.
Again it’s not because the prophets failed to deliver the message that He sent the next one. The Koran says that the Prophets and Messengers were sent to all nations at different points in time. The message was universal – that there is One God worthy of worship. There are some laws that changed e.g. consumption of alcohol – it was permitted during the life of Prophet Muhammad however it was prohibited over a period of 10 years before it was finally made haraam for mankind. Again those 10 years was used to make it easier for man to give up alcohol. I don’t see it as a contradiction. It’s a naturally progression. As per the basic message – there is no contradiction.
Yes the Koran is the final word of God that cannot be altered by man. Today there are various translations of the Koran preserved exactly as per the original printed Koran. Today as well people who have memorized from different parts of the world can stand together it and recite it the same way.
I do understand your anxiety about Islam – but then why are so many people accepting it wholeheartedly? Who is holding a sword on their neck today? Go and do your research well – of those accepting Islam today, majority of them are women? Why? Islam needs recommendations of no one – the least of all from any man.
If you have a problem with the assertion that those who worship the true God are right and everyone else is wrong – then I suggest you please read the hindu scriptures – that too asserts that God is One, without any shape or form. We believe that most humans agree that there is One God, Islam goes one step further and ensures that it is practiced and preached.
I welcome you to understand Islam without any bias not with the intention to convert you but for better understanding. As for those who in the name of Islam are killing innocents, I oppose them without a doubt.
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:40 am
Koran was not even written until 150 yrs after Mohd’s death.
there were several versions initially..
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Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:41 am
Do you know Koran supports slavery ?
Why would mulsim god allah let people buy/sell/trade slaves ?
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
@IRFAN
“If you have a problem with the assertion that those who worship the true God are right and everyone else is wrong – then I suggest you please read the Hindu scriptures – that too asserts that God is One, without any shape or form. We believe that most humans agree that there is One God, Islam goes one step further and ensures that it is practiced and preached”
Very well, I have heard Dr. Zakir also saying Hindus should follow their original scriptures where Single GOD is mentioned. Well and Good. But, I and many like me don’t care! We worship snakes, trees, elephants, monkeys, idols and hazar other things and have no intention of changing notwithstanding what our TRUE SCRIPTURES says. Not just that, I believe there are hazar Gods, there were No prophets ever. All scriptures are man-made and even if they are not, I won’t follow them if I don’t like them. (If that takes me to hell, that is MY problem not yours.)
So that should suffice for categorizing me in any one of PRIDE OF PLACE HOLDERS : pagans, polytheists, or guilty of Blasphemy, Infidel (?) So what? Does that make me eligible for death penalty?
UNDERSTAND THIS, as long as it is limited to only HOLDING these BELIEFS, nobody can have too many problems at least not legally. But as Mr ZIA suggests that Muslims can remain faithful (is it correct to presume that in the first place that they “intend to” or “have to”) to the immutable principles of Islam, based on scriptural sources, then there is a Real Problem, because over here you can’t kill me because I am a pagan or a polytheist or whatever. That Right on this Piece of Land Known as India, Belongs to Indian Constitution and the Courts of Law. It DOES NOT and WILL NEVER BE determined on the basis of whether the command to do/prohibition was confirmed/conveyed by some Prophet or not.
Is that clear ?
[Reply]
Irfan Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Hey SKS,
I don’t understand your agressive response. Didn’t you read my last line - ‘ As for those who in the name of Islam are killing innocents, I oppose them without a doubt.’ ISLAM DOES NOT, LET ME REPEAT - DOES NOT PERMIT killing of any human just because they don’t follow ISLAM. As for you worshipping anything and everything, be my guest. That doesn’t change anything. There is a verse in the Quran - below is its translation:
1. Say “O Disbeliveres!
2. “I worship not that which you worship,
3. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. “And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6. “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism).”
So my friend, there is no complusion in religion. It’s all good!
As for the Indian Constitution and Court of Law, I am a law abiding, tax paying citizen of Indian who would like to see this vicious cycle of mistrust end. Are you willing to join hands and walk the path of similarities? Because the path of differences is only taking us apart.
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
@SKS,
I worship Bacchus; he is not even a Hindu God.. especially in his Old Monk Avatar…
sanjeev Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
@ IRFAN
“If you have a problem with the assertion that those who worship the true God are right and everyone else is wrong – then I suggest you please read the hindu scriptures – that too asserts that God is One, without any shape or form ”
btw IRFAN bhai what you are telling is what taught by SANKARACHARYA’s vedanta (the most popular school of indian philosophy ).
b ut for your kind information there are equally important other schools of thought in hinduism like Yoga (Patanjali), Samkhya by kapil Muni, Mimamsa of jamini and carvaka who were atheistic.
AND these people were equally popular and enjoyed popularity also. Yoga school is among the most popular today.
Should they not be considered hindus ? and killed ?
Akash Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 3:16 am
Irfan,
It’s hard to be unbiased when hundred of people claiming to belong to the “true” faith regularly bomb us and then, to rub salt in our wounds, explain in detailed manner as to how faithfully they are following “their” version of Islam and they are merely speeding our ascent to heaven or hell, as the case may be. I think we need another Prophet or so judging by how much confusion there is now in the interpretation of Islam. But, then, it might just be a PR problem. Damn these mediawallahs.
I am touched that you referred to the Hindu scriptures as to worshiping one God, but you see, those are more like guidelines — we are free to worship any number of Gods. I have a few preferences and I would like to stick to them, thank you very much.
By the way, try telling that message of yours to LeT or Taliban.
[Reply]
Bobby Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 9:14 am
“By the way, try telling that message of yours to LeT or Taliban”
or for that matter to the hindu-mahasabha, bajrang dal etc.
Amit Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Irfan,
SKS is angry as he has an upset stomach.
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
@Amit
Oh You are so funny. Great Sense of Humour also
K Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Good one, Irfan !!!
One of the very few interpretations of Islam on this blog that actually make sense !!
As far as Hinduism goes, the logic is captured (for me !) in one verse - ‘Ekam sat, vipraha bahuda vadanti’ - there is only one universal truth, different human beings worship that entity in different forms.
Because every object we can name is a creation of god, every object has an element of ‘godliness’ in it because if something doesnt exist in a bottle, it cannot exist in the glass filled from the bottle.
Every object we can name, is therefore worthy of worship in some way or the other. So, we worship Hanuman for bravery, integrity. We worship Kali for destroying evil, We worship the stone kept in my neighborhood temple because it reminds some folks of Shiva as a symbol of purity etc. etc. etc.
Peace !!
[Reply]
@Gopi
The survey points to the problem. A survey of the Indian Muslims may show similar data points, although I believe (and hope) a lesser (than 85%) percentage (but still a higher number — say 50%)will identify themselves as Muslims first, and Indians second.
And therein lies the issue. We will be fooling ourselves if we take it as a PR issue. A reformation has to happen. May be it will start in India with its Zufi traditions.
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SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
@Mirza
You can do those surveys in Pakistan alone. In India, it would be mean (I) you are a moron (2) stupid question (3) you are a bigot.
See what Mr Zia had to say on this:
” Yet, whenever I am asked if I am a Muslim or an Indian first, then I my answer is I DON’T ANSWER STUPID QUESTIONS”
http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/they-call-me-muslim/2009/03/29/hello-world/
Next one:
” And, by the way, he feels the term “Islamic terrorism” and questions like “are you Muslim first or an Indian” are an oxymoron. And only morons ask them.”
http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/they-call-me-muslim/2009/06/07/tale-of-a-muslim-martin-luther/#respond. For this one he clarified later he was only quoting Tariq Ramadan, although the use of OXYMORON for Muslim First or Indian First beats me
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:49 am
“They Call Me Muslim
They Call Me Muslim
Am I a Muslim or an Indian first? Are Muslims a monolithic community — uniform and inflexible in character? Does Islam jell with secular constitutional principles? This blog predicts that the next big jihad would be about reviving the reformist tradition in Islam. (There you go again, ranting and raving.) Cool. Reform is an Islamic process.”
Zia himself asks the question
Am I a Muslim or an Indian first?
then says anyone asking that question is oxymoron.
So please draw your own conclusions from these.
[Reply]
Bobby Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Dear SKS and Sam,
asking whether some one is a muslim first or an Indian first , is as oxymoronic as it is to ask someone - “are you an engineer first or a tamilian”. The two identities can not be given any ordering, because one corresponds to a non-wordly belief system, while the other is a very much worldly identity. So unless one specifies more clearly what one means by that question, its indeed oxymoronic.
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 10:11 am
@Bobby,
here’s what merriam-webster says,
Main Entry: ox·y·mo·ron
Pronunciation: \ˌäk-sē-ˈmȯr-ˌän\
Function: noun
: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements
Spend time with a dictionary before commenting. Unless you support the view that being a Muslim and being an Indian are contradictory.
Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
@Bobby @Ashish @SKS
Bobby, as they say, you are mixing apples and orranges. The Pakistanis were asked by a reputed opinion reserach company (Nielsen Reserach a k a oxymorons) about Muslim vs Pakistani affiliation as their primary bond. (or something like that–). So,, in your Tamilian example, the right q will be not you are an enginneer or Tamilian; it may be “will you identify as a Tamilian first or Indian first “..
If 80% identify as Tamilians first, then a natural conclusion will be that they will become traveling salesman for Tamil cause, participoating in LITE murders and the removal of any perceived suppression of Tamils anywhere in the world.
That, Pakistanis, with no other majority (for that matter no minority eitehr) to “suppress” Muslims, will identify first as Muslims is a surprise (to me). Now onder then, they participate, manage, control, and execute terrorist activities worldwide in the name of Allah/Islam/Muslims..
Bobby Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Dear Gopi,
Do you have any other data to compare with? Has anyone taken polls in the strongly christian parts of the US, where they literally believe that the world was made in 6 days and that evolution is a big lie.
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
@SKS,
That is why, I am deeply skeptical that Ramadan actually said it..
[Reply]
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
@Ashish
So did I: (I also asked for a reference, see)
Quote “Second, I am extremely skeptical that Ramadan’s quote actually included ” And only morons ask them” part. Nevertheless, I will be happy to be proved wrong, if you can direct us to the original source of that quote (a website or his book) , unless of course you are quoting on the basis of a personal chat with him. Till you do that professing innocence cuts little ice”.Unquote
Politesse requires us to not go beyond “skepticism”
Bobby Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Dear Ashish,
yes that was a mistake. What I meant to say was that its a question that does not make sense, because you are comparing different properties…like in the example I wrote of comparing “tamilness” and “engineeringness”
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
@SKS,
if only English followed “sandhi”of Hindi grammar
Ox (sandhi) Moron = Oxymoron; means moron like an ox; ha ha ha…
Yes PR is the only problem.
[Reply]
Mr Zia,
When should I check whether my comments are out or in. That will provide some clarity.
[Reply]
My personal take on why muslims are the way they are:
1) Try living literally as per the Christain book (Deuteronomy). The way it expects a person to live you would have so much bloodshed that indeed, literally following Deuteronomy is not possible, hence followers would have serious doubts on its authenticity. Now take the quran – it also has a lot of violence but people can still live even if they follow it literally (though of course society regresses quite a bit!) - Saudi Arabia (SA) is a prime example. (by the way stoning to death for adultery is nowhere mentioned in the quran & is based on hadiths which are not considered as reliable).
2) People over a period of time do to throw off oppressive ideologies if left to their own devices. Indeed Islam in India & in many parts of the world was developing local flavours & becoming more tolerant & inclusive. This process would only have accelerated with the advent of the information age. Enter SA (need I to say – fully backed by the US?) and its salafi ideology. In itself a single country would not have counted for much, however SA due to its special place in Islam indeed does have a tremendous effect on the psyche of muslims. To this add uncounted billions of dollars spent every year by SA throughout the world in promoting its ideology.
3) I am pasting a link of IQ vs religiousity (pasted earlier also).
http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
There is an inverse correlation between IQ of a country & religiosity. SA has an average of 83. Now take Albania which is also a muslim majority country (80% muslims as per a recent survey). However its population is more or less irreligious. Why? I am tempted to link it to its avg. IQ of 90%. Again quite a few Europeans are not religious - their IQ averages 100.
Now combine these three & you will have an idea on why muslims are the way they are. Of course there are many other local reasons but then the post becomes very long.
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Anil Kumar Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 1:40 am
I fully agree. See I keep reading scriptures and I keep getting dazzled by some saints but again when I start thinking rationally. i can;t helop but have a healthy doubt about God and religion .
I belive if there is a God he wants us to remain sceptical about him otherwise he would have cleared all the doubts.. After all for all powerful all knowing God clearing doubt sshould not be that big a job.
So most probabaly he wants us to have certain level of scepticism about him.
Three cheeer for new religion of universla scepticism.
If any **** tells you it’s a godo idea to kill so and so because said so ask him to pi$$ off. After all God is all powerful if eh wants someone killed he can do his dirty job himself.
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 10:03 am
@Syed,
It can be argued that all that the survey shows is a strong correlation between illiteracy and low IQ. It can not be a conincidence that India, Bangladesh and Pakistan has same IQ scores.
Of course illiteracy and social/ economic deprivation may have a strong correlation with religiosity as well. Don’t know about reverse correlation, though, which is what this survey wants to imply.
[Reply]
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
@syed/Ashish
@syed/Ashish
I just confirmed what I had suspected, the IQ data that this study is from “IQ and the Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen and this is the case with many other similar studies as well. If I am not wrong there was another study which had tried to prove Protestants did better than Catholics. Of course there are others which show Blacks IQ significantly below Whites and east Asians (Chinese Japanese) the highest and also showed the correlation of IQ with GDP.
The proponents basically suggest that IQs is largely genetic and external factors (socioeconomic, education, nutrition) are not that important. Of course there have been huge criticism of this theory, with many calling it scientific racism, while some question the data used. IQ data were collected from 81 countries and for the rest it was made by averaging known IQs of adjacent countries with similar demographic mix (probably why India, Pak and B’desh have same IQ). Then there were a variety of adjustments, “corrections, calibrations, and weightings which go into that table of 81 countries. (Many more).
Notwithstanding a variety of research which tried to prove the GENE-IQ relation wrong, most of the studies have ended up showing significant differences between whites and blacks. A number of approaches have been used to explain the differences on the basis of non-genetic reasons. It is difficult to say where the debate actually stands with opponents calling it Racism and proponents calling it political correctness. Although, the mainstream view (or what I consider mainstream) is with the non-genetic school.
On IQ and Religiosity, Cause and Effect relation will depend upon where you stand? on the genetics or the other side. With the current debate, I don’t think IQ Vs religiosity can give us any satisfactory answers, not now in any case.
[Reply]
Bobby Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I seriously doubt these IQ tests in any way are a measure of intelligence at all in the first place. One should not give much importance to these tests.
All right Mr Zia, so in a fair world people would follow Islam or Socialism ? Till everyone realizes this, the humanity will continue to suffer right? On tolerance, you suggest that “Muslims, more than others, know that many patently Islam concepts run close to Tolerance ”.So Islam is the most tolerant? BTW what is the definition of Islamic Tolerance ? To have Islam as a State Religion, yes that is why most of the larger Muslim Majority countries are so tolerant. Why even Maldives is making good progress (http://www.minivannews.com/news_detail.php?id=7737) with a bill making it illegal to either build places of worship for “false religions” or practice other faiths in public.Then you golden punch line: Is there not a specific verse in the Quran than calls for qualified respect of an unbeliever? (La kum deenukum wali’adin or Unto you your religion, unto me, mine).”If that is so, why this Surah 9. At-Tauba: 33. He it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. Why to prevail over all religions? Incidentally, what is “abrogation’ Surah 2. Al-Baqara: 106. Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? I guess one of the above two must have been abrogated. Which one? Since you have taken so much of pain to remove our doubts about Darul-Uloom, why not spend some time in explaining the true import of this article of on their web site: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/teachings/index2.htm) .Specifically, you may explain some of the question I had asked in your previous post:1. What is meant by UPPER HAND for the RELIGION of ALLAH2. The statement that THE LATTER IS INCLUDED IN THE FORMER, when providing objectives of Jehad. The LATTER refers to fighting for the oppressed and the FORMER fighting for Allah.3. the statement that “pride of place belongs to paganism and blasphemy, as they qualify for death. Paganism and blasphemy refer to elements that are inimical to Believers. Those who are bent upon destroying Islam and Muslims” Look Zia, you can go on writing that we should believe Islam is so great and so tolerant and how everybody is allowed to live as equal citizen, but that won’t cut it. It is better if you explain those articles, unless you want to tell us that DARUL-ULOOM does not understand the true Islam. In which case, you write an open letter to them telling them why ? Don’t misunderstand, these question are being raised only because of your insistence that Scriptures are alright and Muslims can remain faithful to the immutable principles of Islam, based on scriptural sources taking into account the evolving historical and geographical contexts. By the way how do Immutable principles change based on evolving historical and geographical contexts? Is there any basis which tells us which one are for ever and which ones are not?
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:42 am
Nazi’s were also tolerant, as long as Jews lived in Ghetto’s and if they did not need food/clothing..
[Reply]
S Singh Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:37 am
SKS
The great preserver of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, does not allow anybody even to take something like a Ganesh picture to keep in your home there (based on my friend whow orks there).
Also, the King organized a inter-religious conference on “Cant we all get along well” - He did not want to do this meeting in KSA, because of the opposition from the religious police. So, he had this meeting in Spain.
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:42 am
they say everyone is equal in front of Allah.
What they dont say is “everyone” just means muslims.
Also when they “innocent”, please ask them to define “who is innocent”
:”can kaffir’s be innocent ?”
then watch what comes out…
[Reply]
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
@S Singh
Yes, I have heard about these “Cant we all get along well” .
There was also something like a “Call for the Unification of Religions” i.e.; Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, envisaging: Build a Mosque, a Church, and a Jewish Temple in one area, especially in universities, airports, and public squares etc, Print the Noble Qur’aan, the Torah, and the Bible in one book etc.
A Fatwa is response was issued by the Presidency of Islaamic Research and Ifta Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=21)
Apart from other very interesting points, there was one, which I found very useful :
Quote: One of the fundamentals of Islaam is that any Jew or Christian who does not embrace Islaam should be considered and designated as an unbeliever (Kaafir) as well as an enemy of Allaah, of His Messengers and the Believers (Muminoon), and such people will be the people of the Fire in accordance to Allaah’s Saying, that, “Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) and among al-Mushrikun (Polytheists), we not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.” [Al-Qur'aan 98:1] And Allaah says, “Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islaam, the Qur’aan, and the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) from among the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) and al-Mushrikun (Polytheists) will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.” [Al-Qur'aan 98:6] Unquote
Peace : This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.
Apart from Ganesh Pictures, anything depicting a world map (E.g. Desk Planner) was allowed only after you cut out the part shown as Israel (which is not really unfair in my opinion, but very interesting nevertheless)
[Reply]
Oh, my! I didn’t know that the entire problem was of image and the way it is presented. “You can put a lipstick on a pig…”
Here is another nutcase:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/12-like-we-have-islamists-are-there-brahminists-too–bi-06
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 9:32 am
@Akash
for us, the participants in the discussions on this blog, this juxtaposition of brahminism and Islamism is old hat..
[Reply]
SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
@Ashish
You may also add some clarifications:
1. ISLAMISM (granting that it exists somewhere) is not a problem for Indians. Whatever happens is only because of Babri, Gujarat
2. India’s main problem is brahminism and their killings are driven solely by Hindutva
@Akash
It seems you haven’t been in the territory for too long. If you were, you might have known that the author of that book, ex-DGP of Maharashtra has also been recommended for Bharat Ratna, as also for the post of National Security Advisor, or Head - Intelligence Bureau. Don’t ask me by whom?
[Reply]
Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
@SKS@Akash
I am still looking for these Brahmin oppressors in Kerala; have not found anybody so far. Neither in my neighbouring states of Tamil Nadua nd Karnataka. I have not found any other than middle class government employees.
Pretty soon we will hear that Pepsi has some formula for its drinks to retrad Dalits and Muslims because its CEO Indra Nooyi is a Brahmin (and a woman at that too!)
Akash Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
SKS,
To be honest, I didn’t know that I was being “manipulated” by my Brahman oppressors. I think I shall complain to the nearest priest as to his real objectives and ask him to explain the real meaning of the mantras that he recites - whether they contain any underlying theme of exploitation. I was more agitated by such spurious theories circulated on the eve of 26/11. I am getting a little jaded of all this talk about how we should understand Islam et al. Who cares? A guy who shows up with a gun in front of me, I shall shoot back at him, if I could, before asking him how his faith was challenged etc. etc. Shouldn’t there be a similar initiative from the other side. I am also disappointed at Zia’s solution as to how this is entirely a problem of PR. What bunkum! This is not a new problem. It has always been there - the struggle between progressives and orthodox within Islam. My only complaint is that instead of sorting out this problem among themselves, they find the easiest way out, i.e., blame or vilify someone else. I guess, I would never know. After all, I am an idolatrous idiot totally ignorant of the hidden beauty of a monotheistic faith.
All right Mr Zia, so in a fair world people would follow Islam or Socialism and till everyone realizes this, the humanity will continue to suffer.
“Is there not a specific verse in the Quran than calls for qualified respect of an unbeliever? (La kum deenukum wali’adin or Unto you your religion, unto me, mine)
Yes of course there is, but there is also this:
” Surah 9. At-Tauba: 33. He it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
So “prevail over” must be meaning “live in harmony with”
Given your belief that “Muslims can remain faithful to the immutable principles of Islam, based on scriptural sources… …… “, may be you can explain whether this would also mean being faithful to the position that Darul-Uloom has explained in its article on Islam and Terrorism: (at web site: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/teachings/index2.htm), or whether these positions are not among the immutable principles of Islam. Specifically, the following:
1. What is meant by UPPER HAND for the RELIGION of ALLAH
2. that “pride of place belongs to paganism and blasphemy, as they qualify for death. Paganism and blasphemy refer to elements that are inimical to Believers. Those who are bent upon destroying Islam and Muslims”
If Muslims have to be faithful to those positions, you could then explain whether this will have any impact on the non-muslims, including Pagans and Blasphemers.
Or alternatively, If these aren’t immutable principles then you could probably do an Open letter to Darul-Uloom explaining why they got it wrong.
Since you have already put in substantial efforts to clear up Darul-Uloom’s linkage with terror, you may as well take up the remaining doubts. While you are at it, you may also explain why Darul-Uloom does not consider self reformation to be the greater Jihad as you had told us in the very beginning. Similarly, they have also clarified that Jihad (as in the war) is not always defensive, what are the other circumstances where Jihad can be launched?
[Reply]
Gopi Thomas, SKS, Akash, Ashish
Gopi, the survey of Pakistani youngsters is reevaling.
A full 85% of youngsters see themselves as Muslims first and Pakistanis second! If Muslims in Pakistan (in spite of being the only,(or 96% of the population group there, no other group or majority to take their rights away , Muslim religion sort of integrated into governance after Zia Huq etc) feel this way, what about Muslims in India where their Mullahs and leaders constantly whine and harp about the majority abuses and lack of opportunities and so on and so forth.. Will it be 99% . that 99% of Indian Muslims see themselves as Muslims first and Indian second?
So, whether it is 85 % or 99% or some other number (looks like it will be a big number), separating them from hard held (or “immutable” as Zia says) beliefs and principles of Islam is more than a punblic relations task:
- Convincing all are God’s children - distinction bvetween believers and non believers (infidels)
- Segregation of countries into Dar Ul Islam, Dar ul Harb, Dar Ul Aman
- Terrorism, especially in distant lands because of this high percentage affiliation with the religion (Umma) than any other organizing principle
- I am not even talking about Sharia, gender equality, education, seeking knowledge etc etc
So it is more than a “lipstick” as Akash mentioned. It is a complex heart surgery.
They should seriously look into the religious rot learning/indoctrination at an early age. Ashish in an earlier blog had an excellent suggestion - that Madrasa or religious education be done only after plus two. And it be done with a modified or reinterpreted Book (let Deobandis come up with a less violent and hateful version) . And do not have a compulsory religious education. (my understanding is that all Muslim children, if they are religious, have to attend compulsory religious education)., Let the parents teach the good things at home.
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 2:45 am
Islam as a political idealogy has a short life.
most political idealogies can be criticized and when people realize they are not appropriate, are left in the history.
[Reply]
S Singh Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 5:41 am
Sam, dont count on it! With all its baggage, it has survived in its primitive stage for 1400 years. May be you are right — these intergroup killings they do in Pakistan and other places may self-destroy them.
May be Drwinism will take over and they will persih because of “unadaptability” if they continue to stick with a frozen AD 650s idea.
[Reply]
Sam, Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 2:44 am
internet is the one of the nails in the coffin on a totalitarian systems.
just watch and i hope to see it in my life time..
from looking strong to getting thrown in rubbish happens very fast sometimes in history.
Zia
By comparing Socialism to Islam, are you implying the death of Islam (spiritual, if not physical)? Socialism is dead ; no amount of PR is going to resurrect it. If an imminent death is implied, why the need of PR? Or, do you really believe the core is solid, message is intact, messengers are righteous, and what is needed is just a brush-up and communicating to others, and no need for an internal change?
“People want Islamic seminaries raided to see if they house terrorists, just in case”… Let us be serious; this is going to be there as long as terrorism is the only vibrant development in Islam.. There is definite linkgage between madrasas and Islamic terrorism; may be not in India so far; but in all the other countries where Islamic terrorist acts happened.
“We have to be faithful to the immutable principles of Islam”.. As long as the notions of infidels, kauffrs etc remain ingarined and “immutable” as you mentioned, how can you use PR strategy to cover these ugly aspects without making real modifications.
“We must reject all attempts to portray Islam as a radical religion and must be able to refute their views. At the same time we must confront forces that play up the fear of Islam to promote hard line policies that aim to deny Islam a place in the society” - It looks like you are implying others are denying the just demands/causes of Islam based on their wrong impressions. Why is this “misunderstanding” only with Islam? Why not Budhism, Pentecostalism, Catholics, Hindus, presbyterians, aAethists, Jews (jews will say Muslims do not let them live)??? Now dont tell me it is a US-Israeli conspiracy. Muslims were not in any better shape before the US-Israel axis.
So, how can you change the “opinion dynamics” as long as people are blowinmg up oteher peopel shouting Alla hu Akbar? Or, are you going to justify this on poverty or discrimination or misunderstanding? As long as suicide bombings and other mayhems are at this level, do you think any argument will win your case? Who is to be blamed If Islam is denied a place in the society (which is a major charge sheet) ? And irrespective of whether Muslims or non-Muslims are responsible, do you think a PRpush is all what is needed to get the place back?
[Reply]
The struggle is against, as in the case of socialism, not against immutable principles (China has shown that even immutable principles collapse in less than a generation) but “immutable principals”.
All other ideologies, beliefs, value systems have shown that they can be changed and are essentially “learning systems” (to borrow from a IT term). They have successfully changed, morphed and absorbed from contemporary realities.
They have managed to do so by being open to the needs of the adherents rather than the need to preserve some “immutable principle”. Some changes have been evolutionary but most have been revolutionary. The changes have been led by new age leaders, better tuned to the needs of the current generation.
It is for Muslims to decide if they should continue to follow their “immutable principals” like Deobandi Ulemas, Osama Bin Laden, Masood Azhar and the like or reform drastically. This can not be a process with a 1000 year timeline.
[Reply]
We seem to have missed out the principal message here:
Capitalism won’t go just because people are frustrated and therefore socialism needs an action plan. Similarly Islam needs an action Plan.
Not mentioned here in case of Islam is what are people frustrated with which needs to go once Islam’s Action Plan is rolled out?
Any guesses? My guesses Automobiles, Reality Shows, newspapers, buttons, soap, instant noodles and coffe, diet coke and school bags.
What about others? What are you frustrated with?
P.S.: If some of you hav e noticed multiple comments by me on the same issues, it is because the original was too long in moderation and since I was dying to get an answer, I posted a few more, at times in different words.
[Reply]
@Ashish
OXYMORON and merriam-webster
You seem to have forgotten that India is a democracy which allows freedom of expression (nearly always). Of course on this blog, we have more Freedom of Interpretation than Freedom of Expression, which, by the way is perfectly alright except for those who need to read more and read good.
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
@ SKS
I think you will soon see an entry into the Devil’s dictionary (remember that one from college days?) for Oxymoron which will take into account our enhanced, and should I say, “anything goes” understanding of English.
Reading more is unimpeded by the “friction” of understanding.. so, can read a lot..
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
@SKS, Syed and Gopi,
a little off topic; quoting from the Devil’s dictionary:
DECALOGUE, n. A series of commandments, ten in number — just enough to permit an intelligent selection for observance, but not enough to embarrass the choice. Following is the revised edition of the Decalogue, calculated for this meridian.
Thou shalt no God but me adore:
‘Twere too expensive to have more.
No images nor idols make
For Robert Ingersoll to break.
Take not God’s name in vain; select
A time when it will have effect.
Work not on Sabbath days at all,
But go to see the teams play ball.
Honor thy parents. That creates
For life insurance lower rates.
Kill not, abet not those who kill
Thou shalt not pay thy butcher’s bill.
Kiss not thy neighbor’s wife, unless
Thine own thy neighbor doth caress
Don’t steal; thou’lt never thus compete
Successfully in business. Cheat.
Bear not false witness — that is low —
But “hear ’tis rumored so and so.”
Covet thou naught that thou hast not
By hook or crook, or somehow, got.
[Reply]
Zia does touch base on the need for reformation, similar to the Christian/western reformation. He does say it has to come from within Muslims. Then, in the next paragraph, he talks about the immutable principles, which many claim are the impediments to progress.
More importantly, how will the reformation happen? How will this uprising start? Who will start?
We know the group who says “More Islam, Old Islam, If only we were good (?) Muslims” is now haviing the uppper hand over other Muslims. They are setting the agenda; killing men, women, children in the process. The so called “immutable” principles (may be misunderstood as many say) have driven many young men to their fold.
All civilizations innately move forward; although some of the forward movements lead to their decline. Islamic civilization is the exception - there is no other civilization who as a policy and practice always want to go back to the starting place and time.
Coming back to Zia, who will bell the cat?
[Reply]
No change or progress is possible unless Muslims recognize that Islam is the 900 pound gorilla standing in the way.
Why is there a knowledge deficiency? Acquiring knowledge is desired and respected generally in all societies. However, among Muslims, Islam, rather than knowledge, is the fervently held “organizing principle” in all aspects of human activity. Zia and his elks will have to convince alarge majority that the quest of knowledge is compatible with Islam. However, inherent in the quest for knowledge , is the expression opf doubt.
But in Islam, doubt is forbidden. This is the real beginning of the problem.
Quranic and religious studies form knowledge for (a majority of) Muslims. Religious belief is not a type of knowledge. In the non-Muslim world this is well-accepted, but in Muslim societies it is generally denied.
Freedom-democracy-womens empowerment (including “doctrine of female inferiority, population growth) - education/knowledge …where do we start? Can a “devout” Mulim coexist (or exist?)in a secular democracy? Will he take laws of man Vs laws of God? Laws of God do not change, hence there is no need for legislature, election…
Any solution to the deep and wide problems ifacing Muslims is not “moderate religion” or “showing the good sides of religion with PR”; it is “less religion”. It is unmentionable in the Msulim circles - whether you are in Saudi Arabia or India. May be Indian Msulims , being in a pluralistic democracy, can take leadership and passon to other Muslims - hopefully, a good example will be followed by Muslims in other parts of the world.
[Reply]
@Gopi
You can’t find Bramhins oppressors because oppression is old hat, now it is TERROR (Bramhinist Terrorists or BT). Instead of searching vaguely in Kerala , Karnataka and Tamilnadu, focus on these
1. Check all the buildings where any Zionist or Imperialist organization is operating. Focus on their training rooms, board rooms. There are push button devices on the base of CEO’s Chairs, press that and the Portrait on the adjoining wall will open into the Armory, with dedicated facilities for making and testing of Bombs. The most important unit over here is the one where the most skilled BTs are being trained to run before the bomb explodes, as also on techniques to avoid Bombs going off in their own hands, scooters. While there also look out for one dark, smokey room with only a door and no windows, these are used as War Room when mission is underway.
2. Check out all Yoga Ashrams: Here BTs are trained in cutting edge oh oh sorry Bleeding Edge- Communication Tools and Technology. (All kinds, letters, telegrams, postal and courier services, fax, land line, mobile phones, emails )
3. Check Hindu Temples (u have to be careful here), Press the RED oh sorry, ORANGE push buttons on the back side of the main idol and the idol along with its base will shift aside, opening into an underground tunnel with blue bulbs leading to State of Art Terror Training Facility, with Combat Simulation modules for Urban warfare.
4. For sleeper cells, check out all the houses and buildings near which guys in orange robes and with weird hair-styles are seen. (if lucky you could hit pay dirt here, as some of these are Mossad guys in disguise), very difficult to detect though, got to rely on human intelligence.
A very good hint would be visits by people of foreign origin in Black suits, Black sunglasses, Black hats and smoking cigar/pipe
5. But the best chances are at the nearly 50,000 branches spread in every nook and corner of India, where BTs are indoctrinated in the initial stage.
[Reply]
Hi all,
I got an email today with lots of pictures of a recent demonstrations by the adherents of the religion of peace in the heart of London. This is the much wanted PR machinery of Zia at work. Lack of PR is what Zia was complaining about?
The placards read:
1. Europe you will pay; demolition is on its way.
2. Slay those who insult Islam
3. Butcher those to mock Islam
4. Behead those who Insult Islam
5. Europe is the cancer; Islam is the answer.
6. Exterminate those who slander Islam
7. Islam will dominate the world
8. Freedom: go to hell
9. Europe, take some lessons from 9/11
10. Be prepared for the real holocaust
11. etc…
Could be a crank email; but the pictures looked real enough.
When are we going to have our own demonstration in the heart of Delhi to carry on the good PR?
[Reply]
Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Actually a good PR (no jokes) could have been all Muslim organizations coming out in support of Ram Jethmalini statement that “Whahabi Islam is poisoning the minds of young Muslims making them pursue terrorist acts”. Instead, many have criticized inviting a drunkard for that meeting, many have criticized about our insult to KSA ambassador (who left the meeting in protest).
I do not know if Zia covered this meeting and if he had any comments
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
@Gopi,
the KSA ambassador left the meeting in protest when the President of India was still seated..why are we tolerating this sh*t?
[Reply]
Raju Kurien Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
@Ashish @Gopi
Ambasador Hasan gave an interview to IANS about jethmalini incident.. “And can you believe he was speaking in his own country which has some 140 million Muslim population.
“What is not human is forbidden in Islam. Allah says we have created mankind and given it dignity. Islam cannot accept anybody in its fold who trashes human dignity. Islam is the religion of humanity. You see, ANY GREAT VALUE AND BELIEF ENDS UP TO BE A PART OF ISLAMIC TEACHINGS (caps mine, implies QURAn does not need revision, Islam does not need any change; it has all what has to be and what will be..Of course no Prophet after Mohmed — how is Zia going to change this belief with PR?))
“Islam stresses on justice, transparency, love, respect and freedom for each other, love for family and women’s rights , he said, while expressing concern that people (like Jethmalini) “misread and misinterpret Islam”.
IT IS ALWAYS MISREADING AND MISINTERPRETING……isnt it amazing?
Ashish Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
@Raju Kurien,
as has been pointed out many times on this blog, the problem lies with YOU for not READING enough, for not READING the RIGHT things and after all that NOT HAVING any UNDERSTANDING of what you are reading.
Did you read Koran today? In original Arabic? See What I mean?
Shoeb K Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
@Ashish
There is another one floating around that Assam, West Bengal, and the Malabar region of Kerala rightfully belong to Muslims and these should be carved out and be declared independent Muslim countries, and if not, Jihad should be pursued.
(It must be a Sangh Parivar trick to create Hindu Muslim tension!).
[Reply]
Ashish Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
@Shoeb K,
without doubt! Never trust the sanghis…
[Reply]
K Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 6:11 am
LoL !!
[Reply]
yup anything that doesn’t sell needs good PR
[Reply]
@Irfan
“Allah delivered a message to mankind and said that he perfected His message, so then who are we to change it. Look at human laws – due to the lack of comprehensive understanding, they keep changing.”
The idea that Allah’s laws are perfect and cannot be changed, followed by your assertion, about imperfect nature of Human Law, seemed at least to me, what my comment conveyed. For clarity, let me just reiterate, Allah’s laws might be great and good, but we in India have nothing to do with that at least not till our Parliament decides so. If that is your position also, then my sincere apologies.
Now about Islam DOES NOT PERMIT killing of any human just because they don’t follow ISLAM and DOES NOT PERMIT killing of any human just because they don’t follow ISLAM and “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism) etc,:
You are not the first person here to tell us my religion mine yours your, Mr Zia already did. If you had read my other comments on this post you would have found some questions that I requested Mr Zia to clarify, on this subject. Just for your quick reference, I recapitulate some of those:
Surah 9. At-Tauba: 33. Which says Allah has sent messenger to PREVAIL OVER ALL RELIGION, however much the idolaters may be averse.
We have had a full post explaining Darul-Uloom’s fatwa on terror and their love for motherland etc. I asked Mr Zia to explain a bit more, specifically, some of the things that Darul-Uloom explained in their article on Islam and Terrorism: (at web site: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/teachings/index2.htm). For e.g.
1. What is meant by UPPER HAND for the RELIGION of ALLAH
2. that “pride of place belongs to paganism and blasphemy, as they qualify for death.
3. There was also something about treatment of Infidels.
May be you can read the article and clarify my doubts, till then your assertion that Islam does not require killing someone b’coz he is not a Muslim carries little weight.
In fact one of the most cited verses about How Quran values human life is something like: If you kill one, except for murder and mischief, it is like killing all.
Now the article I have referred to also explains the meaning of Mischief and it does appear that polytheism is the biggest sin, so frankly this verse is cold comfort.
Then there is also the concept of abrogation, which all are abrogated and which are not does not seem to be very clear.
Am I willing to join hands and walk the path of similarities ? Yes, but to transform pious intentions into action, will take far more than just good PR.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
@SKS
Isnt the “Treaty of Hudaibiya” , at the core of the Celebration of Mohamaed and take over Mecca, essentially one of double talk/double emaning and break of promises?
They (including the KSA Ambassador to India who walked out of a meeting because Ram jethmalini accusation that Wahabism is inhjecting religious poison in youngsters’ minds) say it is because you are not reading the Book right.
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SKS Mumbai Reply:
November 26th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
@Gopi
I wasn’t surprised to see that some Muslim scholars (pre independence) had suggested a similar treaty with Hindus of India also.
I don’t want to get into details of the treaty, and would suggest that we avoid discussing that part of History.
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Sam, Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Can you post some links to it.
it is not surprising, as muslim terrorists get their “guidance from Koran”
Well for PR for Islam, Can Zia play a hand in removing the loudspeakers from the Masjids?
As it is agonizing to hear the 5 times ritual for US-Non-Muslims, when we are living in a so called Secular Democratic Country.
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The UK Blue Print is ready to the minutest details. The chief proponent is Anjem Choudhary, described as nut by Muslim organizations in UK and as a Hate Preacher by others.
Key components of his vision after Britain eradicates man-made law and implements Sharia law.
1. QUEEN would be expected like all women in Britain to be covered from HEAD TO TOE, only revealing her face and hands.’ If Her Majesty refused -Punishment as per Sharia law
2. ‘Buckingham Palace would become a mosque and play a central role in society.
The new design for the conversion of palace to Mosque is ready. It will be sporting a palace sporting a golden dome and Nelson’s Column as a minaret
3. As construction and elevation of statues or idols is prohibited so the statue of Nelson “would be removed and demolished without hesitation”. At the base of the column the friezes would be replaced with Islamic decoration and giant urns would be filled with gold coins for the poor. (Aah see the goal convergence between Islam and Socialism and the problem of PR)
Moderate (yes) Islamic Organizations claim that 99.999 % of Muslims in UK despise these people as this fuels racial tensions. Mr Inayat Bunglawala is one of the most visible faces representing the Moderate Muslims. His views on one of the proposals which was being considered as part of Counter Terrorism strategies were revealing and provided a very good understanding of Moderate Muslims in UK.
As per the plan, people would be considered as extremists if:
1. They advocate a caliphate, a pan-Islamic state encompassing many countries.
2. They promote Sharia law.
3. They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military.
4. They argue that Islam bans homosexuality and that it is a sin against Allah.
5. They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Please note the Plan did not envisage targeting the Extremists under Criminal Law, it only meant that they would be sidelined and denied public funds from Govt’s counter terrorism budget.
One could argue that as long as these are mere beliefs, these should not matter. Some of them were positively nonsencial for e.g. Not Condemning the killing of British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, to believe homosexuality is a sin against Allah. Irrespective of that it wasn’t that the Govt was planning to ban these ideas, it was just that Tax payer money will not be given for propagating those beliefs as this can’t be your case that these beliefs have nothing to do with terrorist violence or that the groups skirting the fringes of the law to promote hate-filled ideologies should be funded by the tax payers.
Now hear what the Moderate face of Islam in UK, Mr Inayat Bunglawala had to say “That would alienate the majority of the British Muslim public. It would be counterproductive and class most Muslims as extremists. … . .. … One point that is becoming clearer by the day is that the extremists” as defined by Contest 2 are no longer a fringe element but rather those who believe in the fundamental aspects of Islam, ie the majority.
No he never claimed that his objections were on the last three points alone, in any case fundamental aspects of Islam are more closely related to the first 3 points rather than the last 2. (It would also be interesting to know what would happen in a Sharia compliant state, if you believed Sharia was an inferior law, or if you demanded somethng like freedom of expression).
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@Shiuli,
I don’t think that is a fair demand, if loudspeakers are your problem, then there are many who have a problem with Bhajans blaring from loudpeakers or the noise made during Akhand pujas and the type.
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Akash Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
That is something I would agree with SKS. And, the akandh pujas go on for days. Have you ever experienced Bhaghwati Jagaran? At least the Azaan gets over in few minutes..
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absolutely… alarming rise in the number of religious functions in my neighbourhood; all noisy. Not to mention illegal temples coming up blocking pavements.
@Akash,
when we moved in Delhi (late seventies), we used to have maybe 3 or 4 Bhagwati Jagrans in a year in our neighbourhood; which was a West Delhi colony full of Punjabi migrants.
Now, we have like once a fortnight, in a very mixed neighbourhood.. can’t even call the police for fear of getting thrashed.
Religion has become too much “in your face”/ “in your ears”/ “down your throat”. Also, people have too much funny money the Gods need propitiating over
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@SKS @Zia
As your UK news report indirectly implies, it is not “hard” Islam (which moderate Muslims joke away as “nut’ cases, or Zia says as PR cases), or “moderate” Islam, where moderate Muslims who like to do something but thinks it will have counter effects; it is “less Islam” in their daily lives that is going to get them out of this s—.
I know Lee kwan instituted several programs and controls to ensure 1)Muslims do not impact the progress of Singapore 2) Muslims are integrated in the Singaporean society 3) No Muslim terrorist is bred on Singaporean soil 4)Muslim Madrasa be like any school fitting Singapore emphasis on education. It was called “Administration of Muslim Law Act”. Now it is a small city/country; and what they did may not be implementable for a big country, or can it be?
In the absence of an “internal reconciliation” as Zia suggests, will he/Muslims be alright with a Singaporean model? It looks like that is forcing them to be educated in modern subjects and participate in the country’s vigorous growth and be a Singaporean.
Or, will they cry “Islam in danger”? They complied in Singapore, because of the fear of Lee; however, I think the rank and file Muslims must be OK with this now, although Mullahs may be seething. I wonder whether they even have an official Ulema.
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S Singh Reply:
November 25th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Gopi
Forget it! Will not happen here as long as the vote bank politics are at play.
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Islamic Terrorism Update:
More on David Headley (ex Daood Gilani), a Pakistani American arrested on terrorism charges (also for possible connction with 11/26)
Headley studied in a Pakistan defence College, and maintained relationship with active and ex army personnel.
Here are some of his statements/emails FBI has released:
” Some of us are saying that “Terrorism” is the weapon of cowardly, I will say that you may call it barbaric or immoral or cruel but never cowardly. Courage is , by and large, exclusive to the Muslim nation”
One of his collegues, Lorenzo Lacovera said “He would clearly state he had contempt for infidels” “He kept talking about the return of the 14th century, saying Islam was going to take over the world”
About India, he emailed to his friend “We will retaliate against India’
And in an email message defending the beheading of a Polish engineer by the Pakistani Taliban , he wrote: “The best way for a man to die is with the sword”
Daood aka Hadley is in regular contact with his classmates from Hasan Abdal Military College in Pakistan; many of whom are senior officers in the army.
Hadley comes from privileged background; his father was a senior diplomat with the Pakistani foreign affairs establishment.
The other fellow they arrested with him, Rana, is also a graduate of the military college, and trained as a doctor. His father was the former principal of a Lahore High School. His brother is a psychiatrist in Pakistani army.
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S Singh Reply:
November 26th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
The 9/11 Muslim terrorists also were educated and from “good” families.
Zia and co btter start his “reconciliation” and intra dialogue fast before starting the PR to tell the world about peaceful Islam.
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Sam, Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:58 am
the master minds of 9/11 like KSM are islamic supremacists.
they have nothing but hatred for the kuffars.
it takes a lot of sustained high level hatred to plan for these terrorists acts
it is not a spur of the moment anger,
but inherent belief of bringing death to kuffar as per Koran which sustains them.
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Raju Kurien Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 12:32 am
So, what is Zia’s opinion on how to bring down this propensity for terrorism - Why is a guy in US attacking India; Why is a guy from Bangalore drop bomb in Scotland..Why–Why… Is it Madrasa training? If so, why there is no initiative for madrasa modernization? Is it worses in Quran? Why only Muslims are running around the whole world and creating this mayhem?
S Singh Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 5:24 am
One look at Pakistan reveals whether any “internal reconciliation” is possible. The two main Islamic parties Jamaat -I-Islami and Jammat-I-Ulema Pakistani, have not yet condemned the terrorist attacks on schools, universities, mosques, crowded centers , police buildings etc.
Think about this - if they are willing to kill Muslims; would not they be thrilled to cross the border and kill the infidels? Because the rewards are 100 times (or whatever times per Quran) better than killing Muslims..And that is a frightening scenario.
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@ SKS, AKASh, ASHISH
Indeed Religious Practices have taken a fore-front be it Islam or Non-Islam.
Earlier as put by Ashish, there were very few number of these Devi Jagrans with its detuned rhymes based on filmi music.
We Live in a deeply divided world. Religions at a Global level do not seem to unite humanity even though they especially the monotheist religions, seems to have much in common. The late US scientist Samuel Huntington’s famous theory of the “Clash of the civilizations” is unfortunately gaining more credence in recent times. The theory explains that the main source of all conflicts in the world is not ideology, or geopolitical but cultural and religious in nature.
According to Huntington, the major world cultures (including religions), especially the Muslim world and the Christian Western Civilization, are inherently in conflict with one another and have been so for a long time before serious confrontation take place to finish off one or the other. i.e, a winner take all scenario.
Regarding the role of religion in our country, does Huntington’s theory of inevitable religious conflict have any truth here?
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Bobby Reply:
November 26th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Samuel Huntington is not a scientist, (political science is not science) nor does his “theory” “explain” anything. It s just BS. There is no “clash of civilization”(which can be simply checked by looking at who are the best buddies of the US), nor is the war on terror a war between Christianity and Islam.
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Akash Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 4:51 am
Of course, who better than Bobby to dismiss it as BS. Maybe it is, but not before we have at least read what he wrote.
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Bobby Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Dear Akash,
Its not a fight between religions. The US would be crazy to even contemplate such a move. They have in the past been known to have supported killing of Christian priests, who have resisted US supported terrorist militias, as in central America. Theirs is the policy, which some people here seem to consider very noble; that is: “economic considerations outweigh all others”, religious or secular.- pehle paisa phir jesus christ.
Akash Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 6:32 am
While not noble, it’s the best of worst options. I’ll rather have that than all the so-called preachers that only serve to create hell for us. At least, one knows their lowest common denominator.
Two weeks ago Deobandis announced (Fatwa?) the need for education (which is a good thing) for Muslims. However, they did not want Muslims to join the standard regular colleges as well as co-ed institutes; indicating they are not Muslim enough, and interacting with non_Muslim students is not right for bringing up good Muslim stiudents.
Zia, how will you bring these parties into your proposed dialogue and reconciliation? These guys hold a big influence; and are constantly dragging the populace in a down spiral. I will take your word that these Mullahs are not teaching terrorism; but this constant harping on separatism will lead some to extremism.
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@Gopi et al
Coming out in support of Jethmalini’s statement on Wahbist terrorism/training would have been a good beginning for intra discussions and reconciliations among Muslims as Zia mentioned. The goood news may be that there was no mass cry for his head.
Muslims, including the KSA ambassador cannot have the cake and eat it too. They want exclusivity andMuslim identity on everything, however when it comes to terror, the argument is “their deeds are related to their faith is to misunderstand the nature of identity. and faith”
When 85% of Muslims (per the Pakistani survey you mentioned) say they are Muslims first and everything else is secondary, threy are showing their allegiance as they are taught from early on. Al Queda is not saying anything different either when they state “being Muslim precludes allegiance to all other forms of identity”. Hence the faith is the primary motivator of actions; and it is only natural for others to label them as Islamic or Muslim terrorists. Muslims do not have a rationale to complain about “why are Muslim terrorists labelled Muslim terrorists while an IRA terrorist is not labelled Christian terrorist; as long as there are terrorist activities conducted the globe over by Muslim fanatics, it will be called Islamic Terrorism/terrorists.
The intra discussions and soul searching and reconciliation etc may usher in a better tomorrow; however, I feel a great opportunity was lost by Muslims and Muslim organizations not supporting Jethmalini and endorsing the truth he mentioned.
The destination is too far and the road not a two lane concrete one. Surely more than a PR job!
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 28th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Then, when does this “intra discussion” start within Muslims? Should there be another calamity like 26/11? What can be the trigger? Or, it does not need an external trigger (because if it was an external trigger; so many of them have happened such as 9/11).Which means the intra discourse may never happen; they will continue in this downward spiral; and in the process create harm for all.
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I think Zia’s reconciliation program is going to be extremely difficult to implement.
Here is a new site, by Wahabi Muslims in India “Battle of hind” (with a caption, the Battle has just begun):
“In the same way that Ibraheen showed the Kuffar in his time the folly of worshipping what they made with their hands, the events of 9/11 have shown the world the folly of euologizing Human rights, Civil Liberties, Freedom & Democracy. These only man-made concepts, upheld by so many, are false gods”
“Oh Muslims…the Pharaoh of Musa, the Caesar of Esa..are today replaced by the likes of Bush, Blair, Putin, Vajpayee (?)…The physical idols have been replaced with the intellectual idols of democracy and freedom and changed their Kabah from Mecca to Washington…
“…with its beliefs in democracy and nationalism, which are alien words to Islam”
Freedom, democracy, and individual rights are core to our form of government. And here is a section (I hope it is only a section) of Indian Muslims who openly proclaim all these are anathema to them. Zia and his ilks (and all of us) have our job cut for us! At least this section of Muslims would not mind creating havoc to bring down democarcy, based on what they say on their website (they also say India guarantees them freedom of expression!)
They have also listed few books (130)/papers they prescribe to their fellow Muslims. Some of them are:
- The Prohibition of Music
- The Ruling of Jihad and is Divisions
- The Destructive Phase of Television
- The Ill Effects of television
-Quran and Modern Science.
The challenge is more than a public relations task.
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This whole discussion about self-introspection in muslim society should really be a case study in hypocrisy. Just recently we had the Liberhan commission report tabled in the parliament. Of course what it said was known to every kid on the street.
However in spite of the damning report on the Hindu fundamentalists, I am absolutely sure that most of the leaders of the Sangh Parivar ******** will go scot-free. The murderer Advani will remain a “respected” man. ust as despite the Srikrishna Commission report, we do not have any action taken on the a s s h o l e Thackarey and his goons.
So the fact is that Indian society as a whole must look into itself, and this talk of appeasement of muslim fundamentalists, while true, is more true of Hindu fundamentalists. They go scot-free even after committing mass murder.
So talking of appeasement of muslim fundametalists, and not talking of the far bigger appeasement of the Hindu fundamentalists, is really hypocrisy at its best, something we Indians are any ways world-experts in.
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Akash Reply:
November 29th, 2009 at 3:45 am
I’ll have to agree with Bobby on this one. However, I think we are quite catholic in that respect. Witness how Bhindrawale was allowed to create mayhem for almost a decade before it was decided to put him down. Of course, one should not forget the plight of Kashmiri Hindus who are languishing everywhere.
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Mr Boby
You can say hypocrisy, what about the reports etc. All the governments all over the world,and now Mr Zia, have come to the same conclusion - that there is a dangerous ideology captivating Muslims WORLDWIDE, and is breeding terrorists who do not believe in democracy, rule of law, human rights, civil liberties. They want to drag the world to a primitive era.
What Zia stated was the need for Muslims to get away from the murderous ideology and be a part of the modern world. And this forum is for that discussion.
Hindus do not go marching into Pakistan because of whatever is happening to Hindus there. Hindus did not go to Sri Lanka to protect/protest the Hindus being massacred. It is only Muslims that go to distant lands and create havoc for perceived or real issues facing that locale.
The killings related to Ayodhya happened in other locations in the riots after the demolition. Whether taking over the building is right or wrong; that was the only objective of the people who took over, and not any murder or driving Muslims away from Ayodhya. Ayodhya has all the living mosques left over except the dead mosque that has not seen any worship for 70 years.
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A very interesting article by Mr Vir Sanghvi today.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Planned-controlled-and-executed/H1-Article1-481140.aspx
I particularly agree with his description of what the sangh parivar is:
“….no matter how reasonable BJP leaders may seem on television, at the heart of the parivar, there lurks a nasty FASCIST core”
“……..These are the RELIGIOUS SOLDIERS who brought down the Babri masjid ”
“……..an ancient building (mosque, mandir, domed structure, call it what you want) was brought down by RELIGIOUS TERRORISTS.”
at on
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Yeee
Hip hip hurray
I am so happy now
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@ zia
Please don’t use the word socialism for the conference which was essentially for communism. I hope you know the difference between socialism and communism.
When we compare islam and communism then there are great similarites.
There are following similarities between Islam and Communism.
1. Aim : Both want to capture the world
2. Democracy is enemy to both.
3. World view : Both see the world and everything through thir own spectacles. Islam sees everything in art, science,architecture, laws as islamic art, islamic architecture, islamic laws, islamic history etc.
Similarly communism see everything from class perspective.. history is history of class struggle.
4. Both justify means through ends. I think your principle of Taqiah, and jihad are very similar to bloody revolution by communists.
5. Both have sacred texts, quran , das capital etc
6. Both have done immense damage to humanity.
The only difference Communism is a materialistic ideology and rejects all relgions but islam is political ideology in the garb of religion.
Conclusion: Islam is more dangerous than communism
Destiny: ultimately the fate will be same for both . communisms fate we have seen. i am waiting to see the same fate for islam. May be it may take some centuries.
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Ashish Reply:
November 29th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
@sanjeev,
I think you are mistaken slightly. Communism is also a “religion”.
1. It rejects all other religions/ ideologies.
2. It also has many sects and subsects who are constantly fighting the game of ideological one-upmanship. Many of the sects and subsects are well known only to the followers of those sects and subsects.
3. Like Islam, ideological purity counts for everything for communists.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
November 29th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
@Sanjeev @Ashish
Zia’s contention was that both (Communism/Socialism and Islam) needs lot of work to be “acceptable”.
However, it is an unfair comparison. Because in one, there is no need for membership drive. It is growing at a higher rate than the world population growth.
Zia did recognize the need for Islam/Muslims to adapt to the modern times, discard the violent activities in the name of Islam, internal dialogue and straightening before external dialogue etc. However, he is not right and definitely misguided when he said all these can happen within the immutable principles of Islam.
In a way, this internal struggle is going through Islam now. There is one group that believes “more Islam/old Islam/hard Islam” is the solution. Unfortunately that group may be winning. We see it in Pakistan.
As I indicated before, what is needed is “less Islam” among Muslims, neither hard Islam, nor moderate Islam. If one thinks all the needed changes can be made within the “immutable” principle; those will not be any changes for good, but worse.
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Terrorism Update:
Headley (aka Gilani) who was arrested by FBI regarding several (including India) terrorist acts is the half brother of the Pakistani prime Minister Gilani.
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Mai ek hi chij kahana chahunga…
We see the things not the way they are but the way we are i.e problem.
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Hello everybody,
I want to tell somepoints regarding religious belief ,Every one should study his religious books (original one) . refer this link for sanatan dharm
http://www.islamicresearch.org/Pages/Prophet%20Mohammad%20in%20Hindus%20books.htm.
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Our lord appreciated christians as per quranic versus 3:55,5:82 and 57:27,28 except quranic versus 5:57 and 9:31.
As per Quranic Verses 4:59 & 83 it’s the duty of the everyone to spread the following
messages to all concerned in the interest of Peace, Security, health & wealth for Mankind
“Please download from web site http://WWW.GOLDENDUAS.COM for peace, security, health & wealth
for mankind. and the same may be published to all members of the group based on quranic
verse 2:2, 10:57, 17:11,16, 28:59, 39:55,57, 13:37 & 65:8. Otherwise it will amount to refusal
to follow our Lord Order, guidance and direction as per Quranic verses 6:26”
Please kindly arrange to post the above said message in the group websites to know all concerned
interest of peace, security, health and wealth of all mankind. Otherwise it will amount to
refusal to follow our Lord Order, guidance and direction as per Quranic verses 6:26″
With kind regards
U.IBRAHIMALI
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