Not quite the school of terror



“Welcome to the school of terror. Let me show you our terrorists, 3,800 in all,” jokes 70-year-old public relations officer Adil Siddiqui, pointing to students milling around a notice board in the main courtyard of Darul-Uloom, Deoband.

Siddiqui’s humour borders on sarcasm: “Had it not been for bin Laden, you would not have come visiting us.”

This seat of orthodox Islam, some 90 miles north of Delhi, has seldom laughed off insinuations — that it had once inspired the Taliban — like this. It still cringes at the very mention of the Taliban, which owes spiritual allegiance to Darul-Uloom’s revered maslak or “tack” (school of thought).

The birthplace of Deobandism — a very puritanical ideological strain of Islam followed around the Muslim world, from UK to Afghanistan — is today trying to reconcile the religion to new realities. It wants to dissociate Islam and terrorism. Half-truths such as “Islamic terrorism”, it says, compelled it to come out with a fatwa (edict) against terror last February.

Yet, inside the school, people remain highly guarded. “Why are you photographing us? What will you write about us?” asks Mussadiq Hussain, a student, referring to a fatwa that banned photographs, saying it was a form of idol worship.

The edict, signed by one of Hussain’s teachers and the head of the controversial Darul Ifta or fatwa department, Maulana Habibur Rahman, stated: “Burn all your pictures. Burn pictures others have. If they don’t part with them, buy them and then burn them.”

The fatwa allowed photographs for official purposes and hence the permission for our staff photographer. This is my fourth visit.

“We had to break our silence. The fatwa became necessary because we have to fulfil the ahed (religious pledge) of Darul’s founders taken during the freedom struggle to protect our motherland from all threats,” Maulana Qari Mohammed Usman, former vice-rector claims, speaking in Urdu. “We did not create the Taliban. The US did,” he adds.

Spread over nine acres and with an official budget of Rs 9 crore annually, Darul-Uloom is in fact a tourist attraction for many Muslims, for it houses a personal scarf belonging to Prophet Mohammed. The relic, a gift from the government of Turkey, is housed in its finance department.

To step into the historic campus is to step back in time. Day begins early when the muezzin’s pre-dawn call to prayer breaks through the minarets of the imposing main mosque with a distinctive Mughal-era facade.

“Discipline is critical to the study of Islam,” says Qari Abdul Hasan Azmi, who teaches students how to recite the Quran. Before anything else — even their morning tea –- the students offer the first namaaz of the day.

Haunting chants of Quranic verses ring out from its crowded classrooms, where men with beard and in spotless skullcaps hunch over religious texts under the tutelage of some 250 teachers.

In the final year class, a teacher reads out notes over a microphone as he interprets the Quran for the 800 students who are some four months away from their degree. If they pass the exam, they will be called alim, or literally a scholar.

With this degree, they become certified clerics, a globally valid qualification that will allow them to work as imams in mosques or set up madrassas.

The graduation degree is a 13-year course, with five years of primary education. The main subjects of primary education are Hindi, Urdu, Persian, History, Geography, General Knowledge and Mathematics. The two-year compulsory English course, surprisingly, comes in the later stages of graduation.

In the English department, professor Syed Anwar throws an unexpected challenge: “Talk to them in English. Test them.”

Siddiqui, the public relations officer, in fact, claims Darul fulfils key objectives of the National Education Commission: “free education, free meals and universal education”.

At 10 am, a student steps out of a classroom and sounds the 100-year-old gong in the main courtyard with hammer that has a padded head.

The morning shift that started at 6.30 am has ended. The next shift that begins at 3 pm will start with computer classes in the three-room computer lab, which also doubles up as the Internet centre.

Students huddle around professor in-charge Mauhammed-ullah, who is surfing the BBC’s Urdu website. At another computer, a student takes printouts of requests for online fatwas. These will then be translated into Urdu and entered into the fatwa logbook before being sent to Ifta department.

“Look at this one,” says Mauhammed-ullah, as he prepares to upload a fatwa that has just come in from the Ifta department. A man, suffering unrequited love, had requested help. “Pray to Allah so that the girl you love will reciprocate your feelings soon enough. If things don’t progress, ask your Lord to make you forget her soon enough. Surely, Allah knows best,” the fatwa with the sign and seal of the Ifta head states. On an average, Mauhammed-ullah gets 300 such requests for online fatwas a day.

Darul-Uloom runs entirely on donation and its finances are audited by a government-approved chartered accountant after which the balance-sheet is presented to the government. Its granary stores a full year’s stock of all essential food items, apart from wheat.

Let alone terror, there is nothing explosive – not even signs of anger or revenge on anyone’s face — here. For someone out to find shooting classes and karate lessons, al-Qaeda style, it will be a huge disappointment.

“These are qualities of Satan,” Nizam, one of Darul’s cook, says. The students here are a bunch of disciplined, devout people whose mission is to “submit to the will of Allah”.

Vice rector Abdul Khaleque Madrasi says Darul acknowledges that “global terror is changing minds and Muslims can be used”.

Top clerics at Darul-Uloom first felt the need to speak out against terror after allegations that madrassas were grooming terrorists and were being put under surveillance.

However, the clergy’s first step towards the fatwa — an anti-terror declaration read out on February 25 — was not easy to accomplish.

The decision was strongly opposed by many from within. “There were serious challenges. People felt that by coming out with a fatwa, we would be indirectly admitting that Muslims could be involved in terrorist activities,” says Qari Usman.

He says the fatwa was a step fraught with some risks. If it did not go down well with the community, the entire top clergy at Darul-Uloom could have faced the flak.

“But it (the fatwa) was necessary,” says Qari Usman, “because terror was harming Muslims more. If there are blasts, Muslims die too. If there are blasts in temples, Muslims are arrested. There is a conspiracy to widen the Hindu-Muslim gap. The fatwa is to pre-empt anarchy in the future.”

In all of this, it is the political astuteness of the clergy that stands out. At the heart of the seminary’s initiative lies a worry that silence could be construed as endorsement of terror.

To arrive at Darul Uloom’s present requires a walk through its past. The linking of its fatwa with patriotism is in line with its nationalist heritage, says Qari Usman. Darul’s founders had joined India’s freedom struggle and fiercely opposed a separate homeland for Muslims.

In the aftermath of the 1857 uprising, founding cleric Maulana Qasim Nanautvi was one of the 34 clerics who had declared jehad (religious war) against the British and fought British soldiers at Shamli field in UP’s Saharanpur.

Qari Usman says it is an irony that when so-called liberal, Western-educated Muslims like Mohammed Ali Jinnah advocated a separate state for Muslims, Deobandis put their foot down.

Clerics are deeply aware of this legacy. “People forget all this history and brand all Muslims terrorists,” says Azghar Alam, a student.

In its scalloped classrooms, terror is seldom officially discussed. However, privately, clerics feel if Muslims did not come out strongly, there could be all-out persecution in the name of terror.

The establishment at Darul wants to take its anti-terror fatwa to its “logical conclusion”. “Terrorists use religion as a tool. We will use it to demonstrate our love for this country,” says Qari Usman, as he parts with a gift, a two-volume history of the seminary published in 1980.

Deoband’s clerics have often panned India’s national song on the ground that it enjoins Indians to worship their motherland, a concept that negates the core Islamic creed of worshipping Allah alone.

Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind, an organisation of Deobandi clerics, endorsed the fatwa in its November 3 conclave, setting off a fresh round of controversy.

Darul Uloom remains rooted in an utterly conservative ideology and its education may have little relevance beyond Islam. Yet, for many of India’s poor Muslims, it is a passport to lifetime income from the business of religion.

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  • Raju kurien

    Just imagine, having a Fatwa department!

    They also do have a course on “jihadism” which is compulsory. I do hope it is not the jehadi terrorism!

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Raju

    It is more “internal cleansing” than about external aggression. It is self-cleansing, also called jehad-e-Akbar (great effort). Not suicide bombing (at least not as a course)

    [Reply]

    Amit Julka Reply:

    Important find….according to my information,fatwa means ‘advice’ and not ‘ban’…i think this is a serious misconception which needs to be removed in the minds of the people

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    What a touching picture of innocence and other-worldly calm and a veritable oasis of spirituality.

    So, this is the “business of religion”; producing globally recognised licensed Imams who can set up more Madrassas anywhere in the world. After the IITs and IIMs and IISc, now we have another global brand in education. What can be objectionable about this,eh? SKS? Gopi? What?

    Who funds them? Perhaps there is a little tale waiting to be told of outsourcing the production of Imams to India by the Saudis. See, foreign exchange earner as well. And, the students have assured career prospects. Anywhere in the world. In these recessionary times, with engineering graduates not finding jobs, not to be scoffed at.

    They also find time to pronounce weighty verdicts on everything from unrequited love to state terror on Muslims. How sweet!

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    Hey, they teach science! So, our students are fit for the modern scientific and information age!

    By the way, the School was founded as an answer to the influence of secular education. and to strengthen Islamic virtue and learning in the face of the british “cultural onslaught”. The attarction for the aspiring student was the Brand’s adherence to old interpretations (of the Book) (“Taqlid”), and its staunch opposition to reasoning and interpretation.

    Obviously, a brand like this attracted franchisers all over the Islamic world.

    Deobandis now say they are different from their offsprings, now that the offsprings in other countries (Pakistan etc) have started manufacturing terrorists in their assembly lines.

    You are right, foreign exchange is pouring in from Saudis, but unaccounted.

    Oh, by the way, they were against the partition. (but nobody will talk about the reason)

    somebody has to be there to keep traclk of State Terror on Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi,
    “let a thousand flowers bloom”
    @Anil, Syed referenced a link sometime back to an article by Yoginder Sikand
    http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/nov/10/deoband-rally-was-only-a-show-of-strength.htm
    Very revealing.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Oh, by the way, they were against the partition. (but nobody will talk about the reason)”

    Apart from love of the motherland, they were opposed to partition for the religious reason that according to them it does not make any sense to have a separate land for Islam since from their viewpoint the whole world was Allah’s and therefore holy Islamic land.

    This stand is identical to the reasons/arguments on which the RSS/Hindu-Mahsabha opposed partition.- that the whole of undivided India (from Burma to Afghanistan, and God not what else) was a holy land of the Hindus- the land of avataras of hindu gods and the vedas, the land described in the Hindu books etc, so its vivisection of the holy land.

    The difference is not in the conception, but rather what “holy” means. In one case it meant “hindu holiness” and in the other case- “Islamic holiness”

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    classic head in the sand reasoning..
    Deobandis have always proclaimed that Allah first, India second..
    Quote from Yoginder Sikand:
    This does not mean, however, that the pro-Congress Deobandis accepted the principle of secularism in the sense of a strict division between religion and the state. Although strict conservatives, they were pragmatists in politics, realising the impossibility of an Islamic state in India as long as Muslims remained a minority. The immediate task before the Muslims, as they saw it, was to join hands with the Hindus to free the country from British rule. Once India won independence, they believed, Muslims would be able to work for the propagation of Islam, and then, finally, a day might dawn when it might even be possible to establish an Islamic state in the country. Till such time, however, they insisted, Muslims must remain content with having their personal affairs governed in accordance with the shari‘ah, while in other affairs being dutiful citizens of a joint Hindu-Muslim state. Relations between the different communities would be governed by a pact ensuring peaceful and friendly ties to the extent permitted by the shari‘ah. As long as the other parties abided by the terms of the pact, Muslims would remain loyal citizens of the state and would even defend the country from external Muslim aggression. The free India that the Jami‘at envisioned would be a federation of a number of culturally autonomous religious communities. Each community would administer its own internal affairs in accordance with its religious laws. The federal government, which would have adequate Muslim representation, would pass no laws that might seem injurious to the religious interests of any community.
    – Unquote
    Dear Bobby, this is not a chaddiwala historian writing; this is a darling of the secular, leftist intelligentsia, in an article seeking to establish the seminal role played by the Ulema in the freedom struggle.
    Let’s understand, 95% of the Muslims in India voted for Pakistan in 1946. What is this love for motherland business? They did not migrate, not because they did not support Pakistan but it was impossible and impractical for most of them to leave jobs, businesses, homes and such and go across to Pakistan to start life afresh. Most chose to stay back; some migrated.
    They had the choice, between staying back and migrating.
    Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan did not have the choice.
    My objective is not to make the present generation of an entire community feel guilty. We as a nation took a decision to have a secular polity and I think that was the right thing to do.
    But, having a secular polity does not mean carrying a tonne of deadweight round our neck in the shape of folks who are constantly harking back to a medieval past and wants to live the same way in the foreseeable future.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    I read the quote you have cited again and again and again. I have not been able to understand the reason for your quoting it, and in what way it rejects what I said.

    “This does not mean, however, that the pro-Congress Deobandis accepted the principle of secularism in the sense of a strict division between religion and the state”

    and exactly where did i say that they rejected partition on secular grounds? not any more than the RSS did.

    “Let’s understand, 95% of the Muslims in India voted for Pakistan in 1946. What is this love for motherland business? ”

    We can talk of how and why the muslims voted for the partition if you wish, but its irrelevant to what I am saying, which is primarily restricted to the muslim clerics who voted against partition for religious reasons….again to repeat for the same reasons that the hindu religious right opposed partition. They were not enamoured with secularism either.

    Mitra Reply:

    Ashish,
    You write 95% of the Muslims voted for Pakistan. This is not correct- its a common misconception. Before independence, suffrage was restricted to a small minority (based on property and various other factors)- so we didn’t have universal adult franchise then.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Mitra
    ever heard of sampling theory? Also, the same Muslim electorate in 1937 produced a less than flattering verdict for the League.
    BTW, a correction. The league won 95% of the Muslim seats in provincial legislatures and 30/30 Muslim seats in Central legislative assembly in 1946 after it raised the Pakistan demand.
    I do not have popular vote percentages split between the League and Nationalist Muslims. If you have the right number, please share. However, when a party sweeps with such an overwhelming mandate, you would expect the vote percentage to be quite high too, would you not?

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    well it was your quote .. you said, “apart of love of motherland”.. my point is, if there is love for motherland, it is always second to Allah and it is not even established that they had any love for the motherland.
    Their vision of peaceful coexistence with other communities is “to the extent permissible by Sharia”. Again quoting: “Once India won independence, they believed, Muslims would be able to work for the propagation of Islam, and then, finally, a day might dawn when it might even be possible to establish an Islamic state in the country. ”
    Why does a proclaimed atheist have no problems with a religious seminary that has produced “leading terrorists of the world”, openly advocates regressive customs, produces products which are unfit for anything else than Imamhood?

    Bobby Reply:

    Ashish,

    I do not know what you mean by love of motherland, for me it simply means attachment to the place and way of life you are born and brought up in and with. This much most humans have, it does not need any special training.

    “Again quoting: “Once India won independence, they believed, Muslims would be able to work for the propagation of Islam, and then, finally, a day might dawn when it might even be possible to establish an Islamic state in the country. ””

    Yes and as I said earlier, this was and is the goal of the RSS.
    to convert India into a Hindu Rashtra. It seems to me that you guys have one set of standards for the muslim fundamentalists and another for the hindu fundamentalists.

    “Why does a proclaimed atheist have no problems with a religious seminary that has produced “leading terrorists of the world”, openly advocates regressive customs, produces products which are unfit for anything else than Imamhood?”

    I have a problem with any religious training, but I do not consider it as harmful as the Hindu variant is in India. Again at the point of sounding repetitive, Majority communalism is always far more dangerous than minority communalism. I see you guys taking a blantantly hypocritical stand vis-a-vis the two.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have never been to Deoband but looking at Tavleen Singh’s description of Seminary, I can say deoband is doing excellent job of producing muslim bigots who want to cleanse themselves of anything India and be totally like their arabic masters.

    The deobandis opposed partition not because they loved mother India but they wanted to avoid division of muslims. They knew that division of muslims in two spearate counties will deplete power of Islam in India and their dream of totally islamizing India will take even longer. All clergies across India-Pak-Bangladesh have only one dream i.e. to see India ruled as per Shariat by muslims and if possible convert each and every non-muslim to Islam either by force, deceit or LOVE ;)

    I have seen how muslims behave when in majority so no point guessing how dhimmis will be converted when muslims become majority.

    I think secular and bigot hindus are wasting their time arguing people like Zia and Bobby (muslim apologists and ideologue terrorists). These people have been programmed to cry “VICTIMHOOD” when in minority and “SHARIAT” when in majority.

    I am pretty sure that India will be divided again as soon as Indian muslims hit 30% population. The same deobandis will be issuing fatwa against division but will do nothing to contain FUTURE Jinnah (as they did during direct action day blackmail).

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Rajeev

    No, it will not be divided again.

    However, there will always be skirmishes and some of them will boil to the “gujrat” level and then settle after major bloodsheds. Gujrat will be peaceful for many years.

    Unortunately or fortunately, modern media will make everybody aware of the brewing troubles, and the majority will be pressed to use power.

    Let us hope calmer heads will prevail, and Muslims will quit whining all the time and stop tehir demands for special treatment.

    S Singh Reply:

    No, it will not be divided again.

    Gujrat will be quiet for a long time to come.

    Skirmishes will happen in other parts; however, if the whining and skirmishes get to a trigger point, majority will react. They will not remain docile.

    Muslims have to be careful that they dont push the sh– to a trigger point. It cannot be “give me, give me” all the time. And it cannot be always about singing a song, wearing a burqua, holidays for x and y, reservations for this and that, faytwa for this and that…

    Muslims have to come out of the shell shock of the lost empire. It is more than 300 years.Time to reegroup and move. With all its imperfections, India provides great and small opportunities for all, including Muslims. Either take advantage of these and create a better life, or get pushed behind and under or even get decimated by this constant griping.

    Muslims lose when they ignore India.

    Sam, Reply:

    British had a bigger empire.
    They adjusted quickly to the loss of empire..in less than 30-40 yrs.

    muslims oppressive empire was only for a short time (from 12 century to 17th)

    even after 3 centuries they still have wet dreams about regaining it back..
    (just look at some statemnts from Bhutto, LeT how they are going to put the flag of islam on Red Fort..)

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    WRONG WRONG WRONG

    As I mentioned above ‘Jihad doeS not mean killing of Non-Muslims and so on, it only requires SHARIAH and NON muslims (not all, pagans, infidels, blasphemers can’t ) are allowed to live in PEACE subject to compliance with SHARIAH

    Please do not misinterpret and distory for pursuing your imperial zionist agenda

  • indian

    Very nice article. It shows that Deoband may be religeous and conservative in way of living but it has nothing to do with terror.

    When Government can storm Swarn Mandir when it finds proof of terror links(or terror think tanks) then why not Deoband. The simple reason is that Deoband is completely clean and have no bad links and have nothing to do whatsoever with taliban. If you equate traditional form of living with terrorism then it is your problem. Except for the people who want to see it otherwise like Thomas and Sam, nobody can convince them.

    [Reply]

    Spiegel Reply:

    You are true man, never ever even local police raided the seminary leave aside big law and order forces!!

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Indian

    Saeed and co , Fazlur and all other leaders of Pakistani Taliban and Afghani Taliban are garduates of Pakistani Deobandi seminaries. So, it is quite natural for people to have doubts about the Indian Deobandi seminary; especially since the Pakistani Deobandi Madrasa chief visited Deoband for an “exchange” as recently as few months ago.

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    This is why I insisit the basic science should be compulsoryr even for students of humanity.. Had Mr. Jia gone through the basci science he should have known better you can’t prove or disprove anythign through anecdotal evidence.
    So as far as the generalized verdict is concerned this whole article is exercise in futility and only laymen can be convinced one way or another by articles like this.

    Having said that it’s good if somewhere some medersahs is imparting mainstream education now challenge is to make these cases general not exception.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    HAving read this article, I can say that the atmosphere described in Deoband (which I have not visited) is more or less replicated in NAdwa (Lucknow) albeit on a much smaller scale.

    While of course there is no terrorism training or teaching camp, the fact is that that a religious population makes for a lower HDI with few exceptions (oil producing countries). Too much of religion turns people’s thought processes in the direction of “Us” vs “them”

    Previously the deobandis were present mainly in towns while the barevalis were in the villages. However I feel that there has been a major surge of the deobandis even in villages.

    The renowned Pew Foundation had done a study on IQ of a country vs religiosity as well as religion vs per capita income. I know correlation does not imply causation but there are a lot of lessons to be learnt here…

    http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    quite sobering, this IQ thing..
    this definitely squares with what my bosses (and wife) have always known about me! But the reverse correlation does not get established; low IQ may not necessarily translate to religiosity.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    @Zia

    “we had to do fatwa against terrorism because our founding principle of protecting the motherland…so we issued one in last February”

    If the love was that strong, why would they wait until so many attacks were done.. why wouldnt they have issues one after the Parliament attack, or any of the other attacks.

    And, dont you see anything wrong in this fatwa business itself? What if they do not issue any Fatwa at all? Will Muslim community go astray?

    This will be a big plus assuming it will not do any harm to Muslims

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Here is the description of a visit to the Deobandi madrasa by another journalist (Indian Express March 1, 2008, Tavleen singh).

    “The scariest religious institution I have ever been to is Darul Uloom in Deoband. In the hours I spent wandering about its grounds on my uninvited visit a couple of years ago. I understood why it had inspired the Taliban. It is an institution that remains frozen in seventh century Arabia, a time when men were primitive and women got a primitive deal. I saw one woman while i was there , and she was veiled to the eye balls. The angry young students I met were Islamists to a man and the maleficent power of Saudi Arabia is manifested itself in their refusal to speak to me because they were only allowed to speak Arabic , so they said. The most important Islamic seminary in the Indian subcontinent may not be directly training Jehadis, but it is responsible for perpetuating a narrow literal interpretation of Islam which is the ideology that inspires Jehad”.

    “.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    About Jehad itself, Deobandis tell us: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/teachings/index2.htm) (If you don’t get there, go to PREACHING & TEACHING of ISLAM)
    Before going further, let me clarify that the article I am referring to is littered with claims that Jihad doe not mean killing of Non-Muslims and so on, and that is true as long as non-Muslims (not all some are anyway going to die) are willing to live as DHIMMIS. Similarly, many instances claiming Jehad is for defense but it does point out some conditions under which it need not be defensive). Now read on

    Quote: Jehad under Islam is allowed subject to certain conditions. It is meant for elevating the Word of God (Kalmatullah). Action designated as Jihad has been recommended for securing justice for the suppressed, assisting them in their efforts to secure that. Unquote (any clarification on what is meant by elevating the word of Allah?)

    Objectives of Jehad: (There is a clarification Jehad is not meant for eliminating other religions (Indeed, under Shariah, Dhimmis are allowed to live, but I am not sure whether this generosity extends to polytheists also or not . Infidels? No confusion ).

    1. Defence against the tyrants by restraining the aggressor from continuing atrocities. Elaborating further, the suppressed are permitted to fight against enemies of Islam and Infidels (?), because they are oppressed and Allah has the power to help them.

    Further elaboration of 1: QUOTE The suppressed are permitted to fight against ENEMIES OF ISLAM AND INFIDELS, because they are oppressed and Allah has the power to help them. UNQUOTE.
    Conclusion: Fighting against enemies of Islam (no issues as long as enemy means what we understand by that) and INFIDELS is fine.

    2. There is another purpose of the fight. QUOTE It may be fought to save others, who are weak and suppressed by the tyrants. It has been stated in the verse 75 of Surah Al Nisaa: ” And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed}?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town. Whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Thee one who will protect; and raise for us from Thee one who will help!” UNQUOTE

    Elaboration of 2, READ ON:
    QUOTE: The verse refers to two objects of Jehad, for Allah as well as in support of the weak and suppressed. THE LATTER IS INCLUDED IN THE FORMER. UNQUOTE

    Conclusion: When you are fighting for ALLAH, it automatically means fighting in support of weak and oppressed? WOW WOW. Now we know what is oppression and suppression!

    3. Third Objective: End of mischief in the Society AND UPPER HAND for the RELIGION of ALLAH.
    Any clarification from the Scholars (who don’t Misunderstand Islam) whether END of MISCHIEF and UPPER HAND for RELIGION OF ALLAH are same or different things?
    Is it misrepresentation? Or Distortion? Or quoting out of Context?

    BTW, MISCHIEF is very well defined:
    QUOTE: Mischief implies everything, which creates problems on account of distinction between the Right and Wrong. Among them, the pride of place belongs to paganism and blasphemy, as they qualify for death. Paganism and blasphemy refer to elements that are inimical to Believers. Those who are bent upon destroying Islam and Muslims. UNQUOTE
    (VERY VERY IMPORTANT POINT: That definition excludes Non-Muslims who are PEACE LOVING and willing to live with cordial relations with Muslims i.e. DHIMMIS)

    Now Who decides what is Right and what is Wrong? Quran What else.

    Conclusion:
    Religion of Allah must have UPPER HAND.
    MISCHIEF must END i.e. every one must agree with the Rights and wrongs as specified in Quran.
    Pagans and Blasphemers are inimical to Muslims and hence the most attractive targets for Jehad by pious Believers.
    So, RELIGION of ALLAH must have upper hand. Those who are doing wrongs things, i. e. things which Quran considers wrong are sources of mischief and killing them is justified. Pagans, Blasphemers and Infidels deserve death. Others can live as Dhimmis. All this sounds quite Okay to me. Nothing Unreasonable. Really Not a thing.
    This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Good points.

    They resort to Hedaya, a 12th century Hanafi compilation, for their “Jehadi Law” course. Even Islamic countries have forbidden this from their madrasas. This prescribes “unabashed aggressive wars” as against the concept of “defensive wars”.

    also regarding their Fatwa -…”…………against innocent civilians..” Almost all will absolve Darul uloom based on this. However, the concept of innocent is not that innocent in jehadism. Militant individuals can render individuals and groups “bare’e or not bare’e (Arabic words for innocent or not) at their discretion.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    looks quote similar to US foreign policy, when you replace “Quran” with “US interests”, and “Allah” with “US Gov”.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    So, are you equating a moral equivalency between Islamofascism and US Freedoms?
    That Taliban type take over ushers in an era of human creativity, freedoms of expression, gender neutrality, equal rights, one person/one vote, scientific reserach and discoveries, frontiers of knowledge? …………

    Bobby Reply:

    Even more interesting is the fact that it looks similar to many things, not just the US foreign policy documents, but even say the Gita for instance, if you interchange Islam dharma and infidels people not following dharma.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    this is the David vs Goliath story that you have scripted on this blog for months now : it basically goes like this:
    poor Deobandis and Osama (if you like) -no money, no support only Quran for comfort- ranged against the might of evil empire of the US government.
    Perhaps it’s time to find a producer and a director; this belongs to Hollywood.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby

    That is absolute nonsense. It does not “looks similar to many things”" – Gita does not have the same message if Dharma and infidels are juxtaposed. Gita does not tell its readers to go and kill if certain things do not match. It does not have even teh concept of God.

    It does say, if Adharma gets to a point beyond redemption, HE will reincarnate to bring Dharma back. (or man does not have to do God’s job). … “Sambhava mi yuge yuge”

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Gita does not have the same message ….”

    Well i cant compensate for your lack of knowledge, but the Gita does indeed says, that the duty of a warrior (jehadi?) is to fight adharma….

    “HE will reincarnate to bring Dharma back. (or man does not have to do God’s job..”

    He will take an avatar as a “man”…so a man indeed does God’s job…(you just call him god’s incarnation)….sounds like Bush to me.

    “this is the David vs Goliath story that you have scripted on this blog for months now : it basically goes like this:
    poor Deobandis and Osama (if you like) -no money, no support only Quran for comfort- ranged against the might of evil empire of the US government.
    Perhaps it’s time to find a producer and a director; this belongs to Hollywood.”

    Dear Ashish,

    When you get time from reading Ramakrishna and Vivekanada, about the divinity of Man and visiting RSS websites, then you can try reading the works of mortals like Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Edward Said, Noam Chomsky about the role of the US in the world. For info on Indian topics, I can refer you to more award winning Indian journalists as well.

    Unlike the whacko “islamic sites” your ideological brother SKS gets his information from, and unlike the s h i t t y Sanskrit Slokas that your other ideological brother Gopi is fond of quoting on every other post as “evidence”, these guys are award winning Journalists and worlds leading intellectuals, and not from your favorite country SA.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    Noam Choskey is the biggest hypoctrite in the whole wide world, an apologist for Stalinisque systems. The reason MIT is keeping him is because of the academic and other freedoms the great system of your enemy, US, offers.

    By the Way You can go on saying Gita is same as Quran same as Bible. This is a free country, anybody can say anything. It is who takes what book and destroys the world. In the current and recent history, only islamists have done that. Neither Bible nor Gita asks its followers to kill those who do not believe in those; and neither of these books or for that matter books of systems is centarl “living guide” to its adherents.

    A totalitarian crowd is next to our door, killing men, women, and children indiscriminately; and quite possibly in the halls of Deobandi madrasa too. I consider Islamoascism as the number one threat destabilizing the world. I also believe the number one thrteat to the progress of India is Islamic terrorism; number two being a pandemic threat.. l.

    You keep your Choskey. And your Ed Said. That is not going to slavage Palastimne.

    Choskey may have 10,000 followers in the world. The number of followers may not be the measure of ones greatness. As I have responded to you before, I do respect him as a linguist.. His problem is that he wants to put his hands in everything, and he does not want to admit,, once he puts his hand, tahatregimes like Pol Pot are as horrendous as NAzis’.
    We can ahve a dialogue about Ed Said and Choskey anotehr day; let us contain to Deobandi Darul uloom, madrasas, Islamists, and ISlamic terrorism.

    For you to give a moral equivalence of Islamic Fascism to US System of Govt is either due to your ignorance, or due to your hate for US or your deep love and sympathy for Islamic totalitarian radicals.

    You do not like the Indian system, neither the US. I am enormously thankful to US; many in my family survived because of US medical science and invention; many in my family received wonderful education from leading universities without having to spend anything, because of their generous award of assistantships; including one at Choskey’s campus…

    So, do you have an example government/country that has successfully led a population of 1.2 billion? Or a sysetm you think is the best? Where will you rather be if you were 100% free to choose? I hope it is not the place where 72 virgins are waiting.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ gopi

    This mullah is a fundamentalist.

    He doesn’t know what is dharma in indian context (Gita etc ) and talks of Chomsky etc

    He needs an AK 47 and so that he can kill as many infidels and go to jannat.

    Ashish Reply:

    @bobby
    before visiting this blog I did not even know that I had an ideology; I am confident that this phase “shall also pass”.. but, the fact is that the first time I have visited RK Mission website was last week and RSS this week; you guys make me curious :-)
    Reading Chomsky for timepass is not my thing; why? Because, how many failed and discredited ideologies can you keep up with? HT anyway does its bit by feeding **** from Yechuri (latest on Berlin wall made me choke.. off-topic) every week.
    The not too subtle point that Gopi makes about Chomsky feeding off MIT’s hospitality and attacking the same system applies to Tariq Ramadan as well. Did it escape your notice that the moment Obama made the speech in Cairo, Ramadan wrote a blog on his website reminding that his visa application to US needs to be approved?
    Money! The allure! Capitalists do not hide their love for it. Communists and Islamists pretend otherwise.

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    I haven’t heard of anyone blowing themselves in name of Gita or Ramayan etc. But, then that may be due to cowardice of Hindus. At least, that is what our brethren across the border say and that 1 muslim is equivalent to 10 Hindus blah blah.
    By the way, Chomsky has gone senile. Apparently, now even Afghanistan is a immoral war.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    “Noam Choskey is the biggest hypoctrite in the whole wide world, an apologist for Stalinisque systems. The reason MIT is keeping him is because of the academic and other freedoms the great system of your enemy, US, offers.”

    I would suggest that you not show your ignorance on and of so many issues, be it quantum physics or classical liberalism, so openly.

    Either take time to do serious reading on classical liberalism, libertarian socialism etc and how different it is from stalinism or if you don’t think you are up to it—–a better option to just shut up.

    Dear Ashish,

    “Reading Chomsky for timepass is not my thing…”

    Well this explains why wont read him, because unlike vedanta, you cant read chomsky as timepass.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Akash,

    “I haven’t heard of anyone blowing themselves in name of Gita or Ramayan etc. But, then that may be due to cowardice of Hindus. At least, that is what our brethren across the border say and that 1 muslim is equivalent to 10 Hindus blah blah.”

    Have you heard of people demolishing historic monuments in the name of Ram? Have you heard of people burning men alive along with his children, to protect hinduism? Have you heard or people killing and raping others to protect hindu honour and pride? Have you heard of people commiting mass murder to take revenge on their “hindu brethren”?

    My guess is that you have heard all this, but you somehow do not think of these as equivalent to killing by bombs…for the simple reason that crimes committed by PMTF doesnot count as terrorism in your definition of that word.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    One more point.

    “For you to give a moral equivalence of Islamic Fascism to US System of Govt is either due to your ignorance, or due to your hate for US or your deep love and
    sympathy for Islamic totalitarian radicals.”

    I am quite convinced that you do not know anything about US actions in and around the world. It has attacked 50 countries including vietnam, since the second world war. It has destroyed almost every democracy and installed dictatorships in South America. Its the only major country in the world, that votes against every resolution brought up in the UN against Israeli occupation of palestine. Its the only country to have been indicted by the World court, the ICJ (International court of justice) for terrorism, for its attack on nicaragua. Its the creator of the Islamic terrorists of today. It openly supports every dictator in the middle east for the selfish needs of its corporates. it supported Saddam during his worst terror days, and then killed innocent Iraqi civilians, both by sanctions and later by direct attack. A war crime, by the UN definition. It supported the south african apartheid regime for a long period of time, and was one of the few major country to do so.

    So please, there can not be any moral equivalence between the crimes of the Islamic terrorists and the US. The latter are by far greater.

    Bobby Reply:

    @Akash,

    “By the way, Chomsky has gone senile. Apparently, now even Afghanistan is a immoral war.”

    It does not need a Chomsky to understand that the attack on Afghanistan is a war crime. Let me show you why.

    Imagine that a criminal has taken sanctuary in the city you live in. Now suppose the police decide to bomb your whole town, to catch that one criminal….which basically means that the police think your kids, and relatives and so also the kids of your friends and everyone else in the town is expendible for catching the criminal. Would you consider it immoral or not?

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    Now let me put another scenario to you. Say if me and you were living in a town which was ruled by a Taliban like government. There was a likely chance that my sister and my daughter would get flogged in public if they went to school etc. There was also a greater chance that I would end up losing my hands, feet, etc., for some equally petty things. Above all, imagine if we all had to grown 10 feet beard, things would get even more lively. Of course, your guess is as good as mine if we belonged to some other faith than Sunni Muslim. Heaven forbid! In that case, I am not sure what you think, but I would welcome the bunker busting bombs that would obliterate these yahoos. Sovereignty is not a valid excuse to wreak havoc on your population. After all, isn’t that the same reason given by a lot of historians for success of Bin Qasim, that he ‘delivered’ the local population suppressed by the evil king Dahir. But, then I would never understand. One was done in the name of pure faith and the other by heathens. It’s all nice and comfy to hold forth that kind of logic sitting in the cool confines of your office like Chomsky can. He kept mum for all the years that Taliban ravaged Afghanistan. Didn’t US ask them to hand over Bin Laden before ordering attacks? You would have to understand that every country is not like India where we keep pleading to all and sundry and handing over dossiers to at least prosecute those that have been caught red-handed in terrorists acts. Has it saved us from any terrorists attacks? Rest assure, these yahoos would never dare to attack US because they know what would happen if they did. So they live in US and plan attacks on India!
    The same gutless pinheads that cry foul when US is doing their dirty job in Afghanistan looked the other way when Afghanistan was raped by all and sundry. And, what about those fat Sheikhs in ghaghra who have outsourced their religious wars to Pushtuns. I am surprised no one talks anything about them. They are the worst scums of this planet.

    By the way, I like your idea of looking at the root cause of all the mischief. For example, how eloquently you expanded on the sufferings of Palestine as the root cause of Muslims going berserk everywhere. I get surprised as to why you don’t extend it to Hindu mobs that ravaged Delhi in ‘84 and Gujarat in ‘07. Why did Godhra happen? For years leading up to ‘84, it was a common news that Hindus were singled out by Bhindrawale’s goons to be shot in cold blood. I am not putting an excuse for those horrific events, just extending your thesis to the events which everyone quotes ad nauseam to show the growing Hindu fundamentalism.

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    Now let me answer your question as to the Gita. Ramayan thing. It would be extremely foolish to regard my answer as applicable to every one who calls himself/herself as a Hindu. It would be extremely unlikely that out of 800 million people who proclaim to profess a particular faith, there would not be a segment that is of fundamentalist strain. The difference is with regards to the degree. Let’s be honest here. Hinduism has not conflict with Islam. I am not sure about the other way around. Hindu fundamentalism is a modern phenomenon. Why is West having a problem with its Muslims population. I don’t see them complaining about their Buddhist or Hindu or Bahai population. So, the first generation escapes to West to get away from the obscurantism of Muslims countries and the second generation then demands the imposition of Sharia. Witness the idiocy that is going around in Canada and in Britain.
    That being said, I am in no way saying that Muslims have been not been discriminated or have not suffered the consequences of Imperialism. But, haven’t others suffered too? And, what has India to do with the Clash of Civilizations. How many Muslim or even European countries can claim to allow an institution like Dar-ulloo to flourish in their midst? An institution that propagates that 80% of the population in the country where they live are infidels and going to hell. Let’s not get carried away by the overtly romantic picture that Zia has presented of Dar-ulloo. To get a good idea, make a trip to that place. Even my friends who were orthodox Muslims were shocked and embarrassed.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Bobby @Akash

    Not that fast Bobby.

    “destruction of historic monuments in the name of Rama” – I guess you are talking about Babri Masjid . Or are there many more? you used plural, monuments.

    Babri Masjid should have been given to Hindus. To use your term, may be they were a bit too zealous in taking over what is (even if not rightfully) theirs. Southeast Asian history and folklores are embedded with Ramayana. For Pete’s sake, even Sinhalese changed the name of their place from Ceylon to Sri Lanka. Sita temples in Sri Lanka (near Candy), Sethu samudram , Rameshwaram, Panchavadi, Ayodhya, Vindhya, and then towards Khamboja (modern day Cambodia), Bali etc all tell an interwoven story going back to thousands of years. There is nothing wrong if a community took over something that is an essential part of their being; especially when it was an unused masjid building for the last so many decades. Of course, tehy could have negotiated and taken over it peacefully.

    Using your own yardsticks, especially when it comes to “historic structures” (in plural), my fellow zealots have done much much worse – bombing the tall, unique Budhist statues of Afghanistan. There was nothing unique nor historical about Babri Masjid. a Hindu takeover did not destroy a historical, world recognized piece of property..

    There is an interesting travelogue/story written by Martin Buckley – “An Indian Odyssey”.. it is a good reading; he traces Ramayana through Indian cities and Sri Lanka, he begins and ends his trip in Ayodhya. Surprisingly, he has the same feeling about Babri Maisjid.s righteous “owner” as I.

    I did not get your comment about burning women and children in the name of Hinduism. May be I am misisng something – there has been reciprocal incidents where Hindus have killed against Muslim killings. unless somebody can prove me wrong, most of these killings were in response to Muslims starting a riot or killing Hindus. It was not a “religious” annihilation as you implied, but more a *** for tat. I agree it is horrendous to kill anybody, let alone women and children.

    Killing and raping to protect Hindu honour? (was it on “its own” or a retaliation? What incidents are you referring to)

    And I guess your third statement about mass murder is about Gujrat. Again, wasnt it in response to Godhra? (unless Godhra was a deliberate act by the miscreants supporting/belonging to Modi, which is quite possible).

    Listen man, with friends like you, we do not need enemies.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Akash,

    “Now let me put another scenario to you.”

    The scenario you mention is not the right analogy, simply because removing the taliban or creating better ciscumstances for women in afghanistan was not the reason for going into the country in the first place. That can be easily understood by the fact that one of the closest buddies of the US is SA. Its as bad a place as is taliban’s afghanistan. Secondly, the Taliban had working relationshsip with the US, and they had even sent a delegation to the US during the time of Clinton, which was very warmly received and there was a talk of having a pipeline as well. All this while the US indeed knew of the taliban’s attrocities in Afghanistan.

    So the analogy is not right.

    “Didn’t US ask them to hand over Bin Laden before ordering attacks? ”

    There are several terrorists living in the US in particular, Florida who have been involved in mass murder and coups in South american countries. In fact the US has consistently refused to give them up despite the request by these countries. I can give you details if you wish.

    Would it be ok, for these countries to bomb Washington on these grounds?

    Bobby Reply:

    “Listen man, with friends like you, we do not need enemies.”

    Dear Shoeb, I am not desperate for your friendship, though you may have some false ideas on this front.

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    I didn’t say that US went to Afghanistan to relieve the population there, but I am glad that they did. I am not sure why your righteous injury about infringement of Afghanistan does not extend to Serbia where the US explicitly went to relieve the Muslim population. Serbians, of course, weren’t too pleased with it either, but I never saw US get any credit for it.
    As for terrorists hiding in US, I, frankly, do not care. I am happy that they came in Afghanistan and took out those loons. A lot of Afghans do not mind it either. After all, wasn’t it the case that sometime ago the same US was pilloried for no doing anything in Afghanistan and just leaving them to the mercy of the barbarians after the Soviets vacated. I am not suggesting that US is completely free from any blame whatsoever, but it’s instructive how the whole world howls if there is any misstep on US’ part. I don’t see the same kind of protest with China or Russia. For example, China has quietly gone ahead and executed the Uighurs allegedly involved in recent riots, but I don’t see the howling masses come out on streets and burn the Chinese flag et al. And there is a reason for it. They know that if they go and protest too much, China would send a battalion of PLA to shut up the fools and lob a few 5000 pounders for a good measure. Ditto for Russia as well. Of course, such a yardstick doesn’t apply at all to middle east and Pakistan. Why, for example, your bleeding heart doesn’t cry out for the fate of Christians in Iraq and Hindus in Pakistan. I am sure 200 years from now, these same assortment of historians would come out with a theory as to how peacefully Hindus converted to Islam. Any mention of the coercion would be quickly swept under the carpet.
    By the way, can you imagine if US tried a reform process in SA. Hell will break loose. You along with Chomsky would be the first one to decry it as another example of US imperialism.
    I admire your standing up for even cases where the evidence is slight. It’s called manufactured victimization. It is one of the foremost reasons that the once proud Muslim community in India and elsewhere is reduced to looking for excuses and assigning blame games. How can a community progress if the best minds are preoccupied with such chimerical ideas. It humiliates me, even as an Indian,. when I see Hillary Clinton lecture to an assortment of Pakistani leaders as if they were school boys and when these same idiots rush off to Saudi Arabia, the heart of darkness, to ask for mediation in their disputes.
    For example, sample another lunatic going through contortions to come up with a conspiracy theory:
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/jawed-naqvi-mumbai-probe-fiasco-bad-intelligence-or-poor-media-619

    And, let’s not go over Ram Janambhoomi issue. Much blood has been shed over it. Let the dead bury the dead.

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    Here is an example of the sort of people that no one can ever have conflict with and who should be an example for all of us.
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/07-questions-of-identity-and-loyalty-ha-01

  • SKS Mumbai

    Among the items listed under curriculum of Darul Uloom Deoband (for Arabic classes and Post-graduate), there are three or four items which look familiar (it is possible that the various other items include modern subjects also but they must be using Arabic or urdu words for those , can’t say )

    History : Khilafat-e-Bani Umayya, Abbasiya, Turkiya (By: zamullah Shahabi)
    Modern Sciences: Sciences of Madaniyyat, GEOGRAPHY of the ARAB PENINSULA and other ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.
    External study: History of Indians Kings (up to 1947 A.D.)

    Other familiar terms are Mastery in Journalism, Mastery in Dawah, Mastery in Computer, Mastery in English literature.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS@Ashish

    Hi Ashish, with these subjects, I do not think they can eb world class Imams aka IISc, IIT eyc you mentioned before.
    They cannot be outsourced to US.

    May be they can eb outsourced to Africa , Central Asia, and Eastern Europe and definitely to KSA.
    btw what is teh science of Madaniyyat?? Is it tehescience as of their golden age? Are we freezing that also?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi, just checked.
    Deoband says that they have had requests for including modern science in the curriculum but they feel that they are anyway inculcating enough basics in science so that if students are interested, they can pick up the necessary knowledge through “self-study”.

    I have no further comments to offer.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Pretty fair analysis. The ultimate aim of deobandis, tablegi jamat, al e hadis etc. is indeed establishment of an Islamic country.

    So what are you guys doing about it? The best way and most straightforward way it can be prevented is by simply curbing the population growth of muslims. Sometime back I had suggested that a very strong incentive based population control programme be launched (which would automatically target muslims more as they are much poorer).
    But you have people opposing it on the grounds – why should muslims get such incentives. Thats cutting your nose to spite your face!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    we love NOT doing anything.
    We stopped focusing on family planning after Sanjay Gandhi and Turkman Gate…
    We have virtually stopped armed forces modernization after Rajiv Gandhi and Bofors…

    I guess a family planning campaign with both carrots and sticks is overdue; to avoid controversy, they could offer to everyone in the country and spend money “marketing” the program to the target communities.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I don’t support dictatorial ways of curbing population of any group. We want every community to understand that they have certain duties towards Indian nation (including family planning) but in our country everything is seen thru prism of religion, caste and language.

    It is time moderate muslims take the leadership of community and spread SECULAR ideas among muslims. One of the thing I hate about muslim mindset is the urge to insult and dismiss all non-islamic ideology without any analysis. Many muslims in India feel that they will become better muslims if they badmouth Hindu rituals and practice.

    But I don’t see this happening ever because so called muslim intellectuals like Bobby and Zia keep inventing excuses for muslims.

    The people like Syed are silent MINORITY who are never heard in muslim communities.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Rajeev @Ashih@ Syed

    Yes, there should not eb any “compulsion”. Our country has survived with democratic principles. If we were to create any draconian measures, let us do it for economic progress like China.

    iI believe most of the people, irrespective of religion, are taking advantage of family planning.. Ya, there may be outliers, but i think it is a small segment. The key is for everybody to focus on himself, his family, his community, and India and ignore other personal things like religion. Muslims, for thrir own well being, should get out of their narrow issues like Umma, infidels etc, and work towards their and India progress.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    what is the percentage of Muslims in the age group of 0-25 yrs.

    How does it compare with the rest of the population % ?

  • syed

    @RAju, Ashish, RAjeev,
    Arre yaar, who is talking about compulsion. We are talking about an INCENTIVE based family planning programme.

    For example give lumpsum Rs. 50,000 to anyone getting a vasectomy/tubectomy operation, no compulsion, no coercion. I know the conditions of muslims & am sure the offer will be irresistible to a huge percentage. The payout will more than pay itself back notionally through the resources that would be saved had the child been born.

    As muslims are much poorer you can expect a higher proportion of muslims availing the programme.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    This is very sensible scheme and should be tried out.

    What needs to be done, to get the govt allocate funds for these ?

    Also how about some fines or sticks,
    if for example, the third child will not be considered for any form of handouts from the govt ?
    (any subsidy, reservation, housing allocation, land allocation….)

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ syed

    Let me narrate you an incident

    Once while doing some survey as a part of my post graduate degree in delhi (precisely narela resettlement colony). I met a muslim lady (since my questionare had some questions on maternal health.

    This lady promptly asked me how she can control the unwanted children, as she alrready had 4 children. I asked her why doesn’t she go for operation for tubectomy.

    She said her religion doesn’t allow her and hence her husband never allow her to go for it.

    then i asked her can she persuade her husbandto use contraceptives, she said he doesn’t use condoms despite her insistence.

    So the big question is how people (ladies specifically)can over come this religious burden ?

    I am hopeless that anything will work unless we ban the book

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Sanjeev
    Maybe a judgement based on one personal experience might not apply for the whole community. Check this..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran

    [Reply]

    VARUN SAXENA Reply:

    You cannot go around distributing 50000 rs. in a poor country like INDIA.
    And where will this money come from ? Generally from taxpayer’s money who most probably will be well educated and would not have an army of children.

    Why should we pay for somebody’s stubborness..

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Varun
    Have I said anywhere that the programme should be reserved only for muslims? It should be open for anyone who wishes to avail it irrespective of religion.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    And by thteway, when a chief minister of one state can earn bribes of Rs. 4000 crores (this being only the tip of the iceberg) I would definitely not classify India as a poor country.

    Sam, Reply:

    It is a good idea from Syed and should be done.

    How can they give more incentives to bring muslim population to the same percentage as it was in 1947 ??

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby @Akash

    Bobby, , you cherry-picked stuff and asked me to shut up; however you did not answer, which existing/country/system you would like to live in if you could choose. Or like your Guru Chomskky’s ideal place, the anarchist Barcelona during the Spoanish Civil War, it does not exist anywhere?

    It is inteersting that the man has been criticizing and hating US going back in time. But for all that, he enjoys what American Capitalism offers to him, including a worldwide audience for his nuttiness, just because he is espousing the hate from US. Transplant him to Europe, and he will be nada.

    Anyway, you are a good follower of your Guru – you are practising what he said in “Manufacturing Consent” – “The person who throws mud always wins”.

    I do not want to digress away from our favorite subject of Deobandism; hence i will not be responding to your comments to this Chosky piece. By the way, what does Chomsky have to do with Deobandism? You always bring Chomsky into any discussion on Islamic fundamentalism.

    Whatever you may want to label him – socialist, libertarian socialist, liberal communist – he is a hater of humanity, and I do not have any respect for him for his political views (that does not make me right, or him right, or you rifght). By the way, I can bet that I (and you) will win more votes than him in a a city ward election against him in US..

    Chosky is a liar – liar of small lies, big lies, and repeated lies. He, while not a card carrying communist, is always in awe and admiration for the mass murderers of the world – Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, you name it. (and this admiration comes more from their anti Americanism). He absolves them for their crimes because they are anti-USA.

    He carried water for Pol Pot ; one of the greatest mass murderers (and “levelers” of society where there are no Brahmin bigots anymore) in history, just twenty five years ago, when men thought the killing fields were done with Stalin and Hitler. He continued to minimize the numbers of killed, for him reporters were biased, and of course US made Pol Pot to commit the killings.. He even had the audacity or stupidity to say , (if Pol Pot was so suppressive and violent) “one might wonder , how can it be that a population so oppressed by a handful of fanatics does not rise to overthrow themr” . (After the Cataclysm/Chosky-Hermann). This si the classic observation of an arm chair livberal/socialist whatever. Why did Iraquis tolerate Saddams iron fist? Why did Russians stick with communism, and with Stalin? Why, in these times of enlightenment, North koreans live (or starve) under the littl le man? Or relating to the Deobandis nd Muslims, why or why Muslims do not come up against Mullahs and for modifying the Book?

    Chomsky has only one villain in the cold war; for all his diatrabes against the US role in the cold war, he was silent on the other side of the wall, totally ignoring the quality of life in USSR or in Eastern Europe.
    A Mao admirer, especially of his Great Leap Forward and 1000 flowers, he spoke eloquently of the great progress (and of course leveling) China has made through collectivization,;that collectivization and communization was really achieved based on true mass particpation and took place aftrer a level of understanding was reached by the peasantry. That China is an example of a new society in which very interesting and positive things happened (actually it would have been true if he made those remarks now!)He made these glowing remarks in mid sixties while knowing (or may not – not sure) that 50 million people were killed by the great famine that resulted from Mao’s programs. If he was unaware of this calamity at that time, it is because of his unquestionable belief in the economic numbers and progress reports communists put out.

    Communism and socialism killed people, destroyed countries and economies, created poverty and food shortage, retarded innovation, the list goes on without any benefit to itemize.. History has demonstrated the defeat and bankruptcy of communism and socialism.
    .
    With all its faults, I bet at least one billion peoplle will migrate to US. if they open their visa gate. This is when they are so bad per Chosky and his student!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    Its by now clear that its futile discussing with you, since you dont know anything about what you are commenting on. Secondly you are right about chomsky being a side track. So this will be the last post on this matter.

    lessons during growing up days.

    (1) learn to differentiate between criticism of a country’s foreign policy and the country’s culture or people.

    (2) Chomsky point about Polpot was in the context of the role of the US media and how it doesnot comment on the issues or wars that its own government is active in, while it highlights/exagerrates the crimes of another “neutral war”.

    (3) The topic of progress of china was also made in the context of the role of the US media, in onyl quoting that aspects which agree with official US position. For instance, in the work of Amartya Sen and Jean Dreze, they point out that there were no famines in India while in the same period there were bid famines in China, which Dr Sen attributed to the free press in India, which was absent in China. In the same paper however, which was a comparison of China and India, they also say that China was far more succesful in preventing child malnutrition due to its policies, which India could not. Chomsky merely pointed out that while the media al,ways quotes the first part of the paper, but not the second. Hope you get the point.

    “Chomsky has only one villain in the cold war; for all his diatrabes against the US role in the cold war, he was silent on the other side of the wall,”

    Yes and this is the main point that not just you but your ideological brothers here must undersand, though its a simple point. Indians, or Americans should look into the crimes that their governments do, not what the Russians are doing. Thats the job of the Russian citizens. For instance pakistanis should and would think of Islamic fundametalism as the main threat in their country, and therefore are right in discussing it. In a similar manner an honest Indian commentator should look into the role of the Hindutva fundametalists. Unfortunately it never happens.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Bobby

    Islamic Totalitarian trends affect the whole world. While it is raging heavily in Pakistan and Afghanistan, it has been craeating havoc all over, including India. India should have an eye on all terrorist activities; but should be razor-sharp focused on Islamic terrorism; both homegrown and foreign collaborated.

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby

    Does not understand your connection between Pakistani monitoring and Indian monitoring of terrorists. Why would not we monitor Islamic terrorists in our country because they are monitoring (finally!) in theitr country?

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Gopi

    Yes, all these US haters will be the first in line for visa! So they can zip California wine and whine about all the freedoms they have!

    Sam, Reply:

    Why dont they go to Islamic heaven on earth..

    this is where they stone a 20yr old woman to death, right after giving birth..
    the accused man gets away with only 100 lashes for the same crime.
    the woman gets killed by stones for the same crime.

    (so please dont tell me, islam gives more rights to woman..)

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/20-year-old-woman-stoned-to-death-for-adultery-in-somalia.html

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi,
    adding to your list of “why?”s.. (straight face)
    - why does not the American people rise up in revolt and throw out this corrupt, venal, exploitative, failed capitalist mockery of a democracy that governs them?

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Chomsky is a linguist philosopher. He is acclaimed for that.

    He is no authority on political matters. He just try to garner attention of world through his weird political opinion just like arundhati roy school of thought do in India.

    This is a tendency the world over to put your leg in another field in which u have no trainning.

    Better if we take Chomsky’s view on matters of linguistic analysis only.

    Hope brainwashed elements like Bobby know what is linguistic analysis.

    Bobby Reply:

    once a nut….always a nut.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Once a Jihadi always a Jihadi.
    Nutcase..

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    BOOBY the ” Nobody knows as much as ME etc”

    Racist Overnotes?
    Now that would have been a surprise. But it so happens that at some point of time I had explained the Modern definion of a Racist : it was something like ” Racist is a Conservative who is winning his argument.

    syed Reply:

    Interesting article

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/223345

    Bobby Reply:

    SKS,

    If you call everyone demanding independence as communal, then well it is racist

    Sam, Reply:

    for the likes of Bobby

    Islam allows slavery.

    Here are the quotes from the learned islamic scholars (cleric in the highest body ) in Saudi arabia.. who says slavery is valid..
    This person sets the religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia
    (so please do not call that I am cherry picking..or taking some obscure things..)

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518

    ========================
    A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country’s religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.

    “Slavery is a part of Islam,” says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA.

    Sheik Al-Fawzan

    In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, “Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”

    His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.

    Al Fawzan – a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body – says Muslims who contend Islam is against slavery “are ignorant, not scholars.”

    syed Reply:

    Old hat.

    Tell it to those who say Islam is perfect.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi,
    “new generation of Muslim leader… merging east and west”
    totally understand …

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    pretty compelling argument.. whats 225 Kodas when counted against 4000 Kodas; forget 73lakh kodas.. :-)

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I know what you are talking about but don’t forget that India is a poor country. We already give haj subsidy to muslims to fulfill their RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION, why should we give incentive to them for being responsible and making their life better thru family planning and education.
    The fact is that Muslim are treated like spoilt Son-in-law (jawai babu) in India, they are pampered, they crib all the time, demand all the time but never ever make any effort to do anything for others.

    I have a simple question. What have muslims done (major initiative) in last 60 years to build good relations with any community or done anything substantial for the nation keeping their religion out of it?
    The fact is muslims divided this nationa (with help from eager congressmen) and they have not done a single thing after that to earn hindus’ confidence.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Rajeev
    An annual haj subsidy of Rs. 225 crores is peanuts and should be removed. Maybe you are not aware, but several prominent persons of the community have also called for scrapping it.

    I would like to know the specific cases of pampering of muslims. Incidentally this has already been discussed in earlier posts.

    Have I said anywhere that the FP programme should be reserved only for muslims? It should be open for anyone who wishes to avail it irrespective of religion.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Syed

    Agree.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    My question is why do muslims need special schemes for their development (such as reservations, minority isntituitions etc.). Why can’t they compete just like everyone else.

    The presence of AMU despite its prominent role in partition of India is one such example of appeasement. The UPA govt treats muslims as the ONLY minority disregarding other minorities such as sikhs and buddhists is another example of appeasement. The govt. reluctance to reform Madrasas (may not be producing terrorist but are producing potential terrorists who don’t want to be part of national manstream) is another form of appeasement.

    Why should muslims hold large real estate in the name of WAQF properties? These properties should be taken away and sold to private parties.

    Lastly UPA supports muslims on Babri masjid issue disregarding hindu sentiments about Ayodhya. Ayodhya has absolutely no relevance in Islam as Mecca has no importance in Hinduism. Why can’t muslim understand that Ayodhya is Mecca for Hindus and respect it. They are being stubborn and they are supported by large poltical sections. Is this not appeasement?

    Rajeev Reply:

    We should be giving incentives to any community for being responsible. Being responsible is the duty of every community. Infact we should adopt punitive measures (not the harsh ones) if people do not follow family planning. These can be-
    1. No promotion if more than 2 kids.
    2. No increase in salary for span of 5 years if having more than 2 kids.
    3. Cuts in benefit if there is no family planning.
    4. Can not stand for election if more than 2 kids.
    and many others.

    All these measures are decent and as per democratic ideals.

    S Singh Reply:

    Rajeev, Syed

    Rajeev – as long as Congress and other parties are willing to please, appease, wahtever; why should Muslims change their behavior? We cannot blame them. Altruism is a different issue.

    I believe there should be a limit on the number of political parties. Lot of these things will settle on its own then. Caste and religion coem into play when elections are won or lost with a margin of less than 10,000 .

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Syed

    Did Chinese use any incentives in their “one child policy” or was it just through penalties and coercion?

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Gopi
    I think it is through both carrot & stick. But they can use the stick there. It might not be possible in India.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    how about incentives for muslims to leave to pakistan/bangladesh also?

    Denmark is doing it, for people who cannot assimilate.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    HAve you ever considerd if bangla/PAk would be willing to accept indian muslims. Of course if muslims believe in and practise the concept of Ummah, as you say, then they should not even have visas for any muslim, entry should be free.

    Sam, Reply:

    if pak/bangla do not accept indian muslims, indian muslims should agitate for this right.

    arent those countries originally created as homeland ?
    so why they do not want to accept ?

    if not, maybe deobandis and other muslim ullama should wage a jihad to change the rules of pak/bangla rulers ?

    that is better than waging war on some infidels in australia, usa, denmark, …

    ummah is a different concept, as compared to Land of pure for indian muslims..

    India will have less problems, if most muslims migrated to pak in 1947.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish/Gopi and other BIGOTS
    I am surprised that you people still argue with Bobby. I had given up many posts ago. When Truth is Belief, you can’t argue and yiu shouldn’t.

    Believers of this variety, point out the supposed greatness of Islamic civilization as explained by Will Durant when questioned about Durant’ statement that Islamic conquest of India SSwas the BLOODIEST in History. Bloodiest means COOL and, that in any case more than offset by contributing to civilization. So given’ US’s contribution to civilization, they still have a huge unused entitlement for Killing more. No questions.

    This is someone who never fails to mention that he doesn’t care about history except Babri and Gujarat 2001 and of course the great Islamic civilization. As per him, only things we can be proud of (we means people leaving in the land called India) are (1) that the noble Muslim invaders considered this land worth their benevolence and (2) later TEESTA SETLAVAD.

    Other pillars of this BELIEF system are manifest in the following positions:

    Supporting the communal Kashmir Muslims’ demand for NIJAM E MUSTAFA is Humanity’s moral obligation, but when RSS’s talk of Hindu Rashtra is outrageous. (*** you have also noted)

    RK Mission schools are comparable to Deoband madarsas.

    Vedas are -%$# and s #### (you know what that is) but supporting Haz subsidy is not only fine but a moral obligation of the Indian state! Why? because most Muslims are poor in India, and Haj pilgrimage is an important aspect of their FAITH!

    Believe that Teesta is equally vociferous in condemning the plight of Kashmiri Pundits and cite Teesta’s award acceptance speech as proof of that. What did the speech say about Kashmiri Pundits? Well Kashmir no doubt is Bad but NOTHING COMPARED to GUJARAT.

    Well in general, by and large, Indian laws (Or even international laws for that matter, except for the PREFERRED ONES found in great civilization) should not be applied on illegal Bangladeshi. What are the reasons ? Human Rights, Morality and “because they have some STAKE in Land!.” You want more reasons ? You should not treat them like CATTLES because treating cattle’s brutally is Humane and moral. (This fits in nicely with Deoband’s position “The Prophet (Pbuh) has strictly forbid assassination in a BRUTAL and PAINFULL manner”).

    Dharma equals Belief in God (actually Allah). Get me any Word, any Book, anything and I will show you how to reach the same conclusion. Of course the conclusion is always Sabka Malik ek motherhoods.

    Nobody knows as much as ME and all Others need to read more, because they know NOTHING. Be advised to attend libraries, to read Chommmmies & kies. ,

    My education, My Knowledge, My Wisdom and My concern for humanity are evident in the RICH VOCABULARY (examples are #@+! and !?#*”/# etc.) I use in describing SOME (People, countries, books, Books and religions). Please note that these descriptions are the most charitable that these objects and subjects, deserve given my supreme knowledge.

    So Surrender and Surrender now, because you cannot fight against the might of Pious Believers.
    Allah is ensuring that the cradles of
    Muslim homes will ultimately return ——————- and all
    of —————– to the Muslim Ummah.

    You still want arguments !
    I CAN’T and I WON’T

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Nice one!!!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    you forgot that atheism means all religions are “bullshit” and all religions preach violence except one.
    Whenever I see the next post from Bobby, I will look at your post .. will save me from having to read a rehash..

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Supporting the communal Kashmir Muslims’ demand for NIJAM E MUSTAFA…”

    Dear SKS, disregarding the clear racist tone in your statement, let me say this: it does not matter whether people demanding independence are communal, racist, casteist. None of this is a justification for occupying a land. and its people against their will.

    The British could have said that Indians should not be given independence because they are castiest. Would that be an argument?

    About Teesta setelvad, I am assuming that you have the maturity to understand that she being an indian is right in criticizing the actions of the Indian government-namely Gujarat….some thing she can influence and hopefully change. She does not have much hold over the kashmiri militants. So she can condemn it, but she cant influence them. I hope that was simple enough for even you to absorb.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Incentive Based Family Planning Program

    Well I don’t think a secular state should have policies which encourage (as in monetary incentives) its citizens to deviate from their religious beliefs.

    Holds true for punitive measures too. It discriminates against its citizens simply because he is following his religious beliefs

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Ultimate HORROR

    Violence in Kasargod : CPM JOINS HANDS with COMMUNAL BJP

    Left Parties, BJP blame it on Indian Union Muslim League http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Left+parties,+BJP+blame+it+on+IUML&artid=Hvyu7nQZ9cQ=&SectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&MainSectionID=fyV9T2jIa4A=&SectionName=X7s7i%7CxOZ5Y=&SEO=

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Ya! I am watching it here.. CPM is quite upset with Muslim League; they blame their defeat in the prestigioous Kannur assembly seat (in the byelection) on Muslims moving away from supporting CPM.

    CPM and BJP used to kill each other; now I am sure we wills ee CPM//Muslim League murders. However, I should say, I will take Muslim League any time compared to PDP (Madani), NDF/PDF/SIMI/SDPI (they did get close to 4000 votes in the last election; they have khaki pant/shirt volunteers like Nazis) .

    From a historical perspective, CPM started appeasing Muslims long before Congress started.
    CPM, under the leadership of the great Brahmin bigot, EMS Namboodiripad, gave Muslims their “first district” in India, in Malappuram, Kerala.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Relentless March towards Progress:
    Anjumans deprive Muslim women of microcredit.
    Apart from depriving Muslim women, these Anjumans are also insuring collapse of the concerned Microcredit firms.
    There were some 33 comments on the story and when started reading them I was SHOCKED.
    I was Shocked. Shocked
    Many comments by Muslim sounding names were actually criticsing the Anjumans.

    But As I moved further my doubts started to subside, when I entered familiar territory : Interest is immoral, it is as bad as giving condoms to africans for saving them from AIDS (how ? Hell both ways), the credit institutes are not doing some charity they are making money (so Moral of the story? If u want to do business you should do it for charity) and so on. (Interestingly Micro credit’s first success was scripted by B’deshis)

    Still to my disappointment about 60% (approx. ) actually criticized Anjuman.

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Swaminomics/entry/anjumans-deprive-muslim-women-of

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    So IUML is the moderate variety? WoW so many exciting options ?

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @SKS

    Yes, IUML (minister E Ahmed etc) is of moderate type. However, they are being bombarded by upstart Sunni extremists; there has been intra-group murders. Many groups split off from IUML bevcause they felt IUML was not religiosus and extremist enoughThese guys go on changing their names like their bretheren outfits sucha s juH in Pakistan – NDF/PDF (all originated from SIMI), PDP etc… . These upstarts are trying to get Dalits in North India in their fold , now that Mayawati has joined with “Brahmin bigots”.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Is there a Congress Party or RSS in pakistan?

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Why didnt all Muslims leave to their homeland Pakistan ?

    They did vote for Jinnah, and by voting for him strengthened his religious division agenda.

    after voting , they want to have their cake and eat it too..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    don’t you think Pakistan has enough troubles? Why do you want the Congress Party in Pakistan?

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    not having any significant minorities sets the stage for next level game in islamic countries.

    the game is

    who is the purest muslim ?

    once it starts it only picks up speed and the pure muslim has to cleanse the impure muslim.
    then eventually only one strain remains in each country.

    in the process if many muslims get killed that is fine, as only a muslim is allowed (tolerated) to kill another muslim..
    (even when that is happening, they are in disbelief and think mossaad, raw are behind…)

  • Gopi Thomas

    Zia

    I would love to believe everything you mentioned in the article. – Funny, sarcastic 76 year old PR guy, love for the motherland, using religion for the good of the country Vs terror etc. Although, I have more unanswered questions. I also fear about the adapatability of its graduates to this world,. Imams and madrasa teachers are leadership positions within the Muslim community; and I would think Muslims will be interested in obtaining the best for the buck,. Your observations did not give me any comfort feel about these leadership building aspects.

    “they were compelled to issue a Fatwa because of half truths such as Islamic terrorism” – That, in 2008, they still believed the Islamic terrorism is a myth? Why did nt you ask how they feel about Islamic terrorism now, especially with the events in Pakistan and Afghamnistan? And if they believed it is only half truth, seven years after 9/11 and many worldwide bombings; why did they even issue a Fatwa? Now, apart from oteher concerns, their integrity is also in question!

    “A student, referring to a Fatwa that banned photographs, prohibited me from taking photos…” — Do Muslims really want these types of people to be an Imam, a teacher to impressionable kids in Madrasa? Is this the science they are teaching? (per SKS, the science books they use there are “Modern Science: Science of Madinyett” and “Geography of Arab Peninsulas” ) So much for their science studies.

    “Our founders were committed to the security of the motherland, and that is why we led a “religious” war against British” — If there was love for the country, why would one need a “religious” war?

    “Darul uloom is a tourist center for many Muslims” — Dow e get a picture of what the meaning of is is?

    “In its scallopped classrooms terror is seldom officially discussed” – One would think, with all the attention and fear focused on Islamic terrorism, even if the School believes it is not true, there will be seminars and case studies and discussiosn on terror acts committed by Islamic fundamentalists – students giving different views, even if they justified these. That theer is no discussion on a 9/11, or a 11/26, or the Madrid, Pakistan attacks,or Afghstan attack against girls schools, ISlamists traveling to distant lands and exploding etc is not discussed. Or for that matter, why two highly educated, well off students from Bangalore try to blow up Glasgow airport? Or why the rich kids from Kannur, kerala go to Pakistan for terrorist training? What motivates them? What is in the religion, that these people do notb get or misunderstand? The graduates going to teach in madrasas or join as Imams, I would think, will be expected to answer tehir congregation’s questions and doubts on Jehad and suicide bombing. One would think that these people have been tarined in ifs, whys, buts so they can lead the people, and hopefully try to spot and prevent one turning into a terrorist.

    Taking it further, this aspect of “questioning, not exploring” a sign of a closed mind? One of my “unscientific” theories is thatt there is a connection between all these and why there are so few Muslim writers, poets, either in Arabic , which is spoken by 1.2 billion people, or in Indian regional languages and Hindi (and may be Urdu too, but I am not sure about Urdu), and English. Does the early madrasa/religious education hamper creativity? (well, there was a golden age with abundance of creativity; buit that ended in 1300s and the land has been dry ever since)

    “Yet for many of today’s poor Muslims, it is a passport to realize income from the business of religion” – If income is the objective, couldnt we collectively find out 800 jobs (number of graduates in a year) per year for them, and not worry about potential terrorism, poor tarining, outmoded models etc..

    You mentioned this was your fourth visit. Did you ever talk to the maulavis asto how they coach their students to reconcile to living within a community surrounded by “infidels”, how they reconcile with the country’s call vs ummas call etc. How they internalize and externalize that others are not God’s children — how can these students go out in the open world (they can defin itely go to a mosque as an Imam) believing that a person he may see in the bazar is not God’s child and some “inhuman” version?

    “terrorists use religion as a tool. We will use it to demonstrate our love for this country ” – I hope and pray that is true (although they did not use the word India, and instead used “this country”.. Just like the word innocent in their FAtwa- bare’e and not bare’e – is there any double meaning here?

    The concerns people (mostly, non-Muslims, but there are some Msulims too) have are legitimate. Especially when one hears that all the firebrand leaders of Pakistani Fundamentalist Islamic terrorism are graduates of sister Deonandi school in Pakistan.

    It is only in the best interest of the Deoband School, Muslims, India, and the world that they modernize curriculum, make some changes liek allowing photography, encourage debates and discussions and alternate view points. Create religious people; let them live religiosuly, but not live for the religion.

    “To

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi
    One of the most important takeaways from this discussion for me has been Syed’s quote that ultimately Christianity was defeated by Christians. It is the Muslims that need to defeat Islam.
    We need to push for interventions in the right areas; have the courage to say that Government will not only encourage but enforce state policy and to the hell with consequences.
    This includes closure of Madrassas or call them what you want so long as their syllabus is the same as any other school. No parallel certification; everyone goes through regular syllabus and state boards/ CBSE.
    Learning Arabic can wait; if Geography lessons mean learning about the Geography of Arabic Peninsula or science lessons mean learning about science till 1300 and rest left to self-study, that can be safely scrapped too.
    If Muslims need to have a school for producing Imams, let there be a law that these Imams need to first have at least a +2 secular education before going in for religious studies. This will actually ensure a better balance between demand and supply like CAs for instance and drive up the minimum wages for these guys :-)
    No bullshit like Islamic banking. Let’s face it guys, very simply put a bank takes money from a depositor and grows it to be able to ensure you get a return out of it. There are two (very simplistically) ways a bank can grow the money: fee based (charging money for services rendered; which is what largely investment banking is all about, arranging money for others) and interest based. charging money for actually letting you use its money for a short/ long time.
    So, you can do any amount of “gymnastics” you want, but if the bank wants to be solvent, it needs to earn money. It has no other legal ways of earning. If you want to create a parallel system of accounting and call it xyz rather than interest, fine! But, what a waste of energy. And, as “my ideological brother” points out, no microcredit either.
    Beats me how Pakistan can have an honest discussion on Madrassas and Bangladesh pioneer microcredit, we are going in the reverse direction. I guess the reason is that Pakistan and Bangladesh does not have the Sangh Parivar, RK Mission schools (and IIMs, IITs, RECs, IISC etc). Wait, they also do not have the Murderous Modi and the A s s **** Advani..
    This is my AHA! moment. The TRUTH is being revealed to me! I am having epileptic seizures! Guys, help!

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Ashish

    You are on the mark. The plus two secular education as a base before moving into madrasa religious education will be a major change for good. The imamas from this program will be more knowledgeable, better to build understanding, better to build bridges berween various groups

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @ S Singh
    well, you and me will not live to see that day.
    Simple reason, a plus two secular educated person is not likely to want to be an Imam.
    Tchah, tchah.. I do get carried away.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Oh really, I am pleased. Enjoy your laugh, that is just one among other LUXURIES, your commi oh sorry, anarcho-singo-bingis right? (that is hep , no) wouldn’t be too impressed with.

    Nevertheless, I have to admire your commitment to the cause, that you go on recommending your education to everyone, despite what it has done to you.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Noam Chosky’s favourite time/place/rule(r) is the anarchist regime of Barcelona 1930-32 during the spanish Civil war. He has given glowing tributes about that.. No wonder his student follows him.

    Somewhere in this blog he has implied India need not lkeep an eye on Islamic terrorists; that is Pakistan’s job (and they are doing a good job at it – majority Muslim country keeping a good eye on the Muslim terrorists; however a majority Hindu country does not follow in the same footseps to keep track of Hindu terrorists)…Figute it out.. Left plus Islamism = big zero

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Latest Defiinition of Biggest Terrorism :

    The act of linking Islam, the religion of Peace, with Terrorism is biggest Terrorism. Source : Veritable Oasis of Spirituality )

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Sounds like Advaita!

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @ZZia

    They had this meeting of 100,000 mullahs and others from all over India. I am told no women were invited/allowed.

    You should have questioned that. Are women only to bear children or should they have a part in formulating programs and policies affecting them, their families, and communities?

    And, can you also tell me what will be the equivalent (not ideologic) of a Deobandi type program in Roman Catholic sect?

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Well, Islamic Banking we are told every now and then is one of the fastest growing segments in global finance and most of the time it is just what you guessed. Form over substance. Interest is still charged (Sukuks are different) by structuring a conventional interest bearing debt transaction into an asset lease/hire and the borrowers pays fixed amount of rentals. Now what about additional interest the conventional banks charge on delayed payments? Islamic banks claim it as a discount !!!. So broadly, instead of saying borrower has defaulted they will say borrowed has made early payment (heeeheeee ) and so we give them a discount (difference between the full payment stipulated and the actual amount received after giving discount)

    But when the payment is actually delayed and amount recd is more than the amount they should have received after giving discounts is some times given to ZAKAT, mostly after netting of the costs incurred by the Islamic bank because the Borrower did not make an EARLY PAYMENT !! Again similar magic for dealing with enforcement of security in case of full default the effect remains the same. Same with insurance, Islamic banks have problems with insurance while normal banks insist that borrower insure its assets (apart from other risks).

    Moral of the story: Islamic Finance at the conceptual level refuses to accept that different capital providers have different risk appetite and consequently different return expectations, merely an extension of the inherently totalitarian position Islam has on everything. Given the inherent fallacy of such totalitarian ideologies the followers are left with no option, but, to seek innovative mechanisms to somehow mask the reality (form over substance) so that the followers continue to believe in the Perfect Code for Everyone, Everything & Forever. Ironically, most of such innovations are again designed by the lawyers and I Bankers belonging to or educated by the decadent west and Shariah experts sign off the structure as HALAL. So if you make all that fee and also another source of capital what is the harm in doing some gymnastics to satisfy the delusions of a totalitarian ideology?

    The application of this ideology is wide ranging for e.g. wearing tie and tucking in shirt is the clothing of those involved in SIN and OBSCENITY; therefore we must avoid it (Source : Veritable Oasis of Spirituality in your words)

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @SKS

    Anjuman, Islamic Banking, and many “initiatives” in the past and yet to come – all these are programs by Mullahs and the so called community leaders to keep Muslims marginalized. The emerging Sunni orthodoxy (paralleling the “awakening” all over the Islamic world) is adding to this humbug.

    It is unfortunate people like Zia not wripping into these and Deobandi programs. The issue with the community is who will bell the Mullas; they are the leaders by default; and we continue to create these monsters through schools like Deoband Darul Uloom.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ shoeb

    This is exactly the problem.

    Just the similar things happeend during Nazi germany, ehen Uk and all kept appeasing Germany. Our govt is doing the same to mullahs and ignoring poor people who have no affiliation to the self proclaimed leaders of muslims.

    Htas off to you man

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Suggestions of Ashish are very sensible & should be implemented.

    The other day I was shocked to learn that practically all the Sunni mosques in Lucknow are now under Deobandi control. These people are following the creeping acquisition route in taking over mosques. If we do not act fast, pretty soon, almost all sunni muslims would have become DEobandis.

    I have sent an e mail to the ministry of Health & Family Welfare at resp-health@hub.nic.in
    and also forwarded the mail to my contacts requesting them to forward the mail to the ministry. The mail is:

    Sir,
    We are watching with dismay as India’s population continues to explode. While we are sure that your ministry/Govt. is making all out efforts to curb this runaway growth in population, however the impact of your efforts is not being felt fully at ground level.
    In this connection we have a small suggestion. Your ministry may consider implementing an extremely strong incentive based family based planning policy. For example a lump sum incentive amount of Rs. 50,000/- can be given to any person (limited to a certain criteria) who goes in for a permanent sterilization operation (vasectomy/tubectomy). The incentive amount will more than pay itself back through the resources that would be saved had the child been born. Such a scheme, we are sure, will be very well received by a large section of the population which is extremely poor and has the potential of having a major impact on the runaway population growth which indeed is the major reason for India’s poverty and other associated issues.
    Further, the scheme would be politically acceptable as it is not coercive but entirely voluntary in nature.
    We hope for a positive response on the issue.

    With Regards

    If you agree with the suggestion, you can also forward it the the Ministry & request your friends to forward it also.
    Lets hope it makes some impact.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    Can also send this letter to all media heads and all important people in TV and newspapers ?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I do not think this is the right way. This is also coercion in another form. Besides, I doubt it will work. I feel the only way is female literacy and enpowerment, as it happened in kerala. The amount of investment needed would be as much or less, that the amount given as incentive.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @Bobby

    Btw kerala population growth rate is low bcoz of christians and hindus. The population growth rate of muslims of kerala is higher than all india average decadal drowth rate of 21.96 percent.

    Chek the growth rate of some muslim majority district, the truth will be on your face

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby @Sanjeev

    Agree with Bobby. Female literacy, empowerment are the keys for societal improvement. That is what Grameen Bank did in Bengla Desh.

    A woman, as all of us know, is more interested in the children’s health and education.

    The matriarchial system within the Nairs of kerala and the early Christian influence resulted in women of Kerala getting educated and joining employment ranks. The social metrics – infant mortality, womens health, etc- directly relates to this status of women.

    Sanjeev, it is true that Muslim areas have a significantly higher population growth than other parts of Kerala (Kerala itself being significantly less population growth than India). However, it should be admitted that the Muslim growth rate has gone down significantly from the last census to the next census; and with education, Muslims have started adopting family planning; although still at a lower rate than others.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Gopi @Bobby @Sanjeev

    btw Anjumans do not want Muslim women to get Grameen bank type loan. It seems they do not want Muslim women to be empowered. SKS has a link to the Anjuman news somewhere in this blog.

    There is an interesting news on Kerala (half page) in yesterday’s New York times (November 18, 2009). It talks about its social progress, literacy, etc and how it has resulted in the depletion of coconut pluckers.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Bobby, Gopi, SKS
    @Bobby
    Actually during my student days my outlook was a lot like yours, but life does take its toll. Female literacy, empowerment etc. are good for the southern states but we are talking about the bimaru ones & having seen things firsthand I am very pessimistic. Quite frankly, as there has not been any significant improvement in HDI in these states since the last 60 years despite different governments trying everything possible, don’t you think something totally different should be attempted.
    @Gopi
    I read somewhere that the muslim growth rate in Kerala is much less than the hindu growth rate in the north. Is that true.
    @ SKS
    Are you serious?? When both our eastern and western neighboring muslim countries (amongst a host of other countries) are trying their best to implement a strong FP scheme, do you still believe that Islam is against FP. Leave aside the internet (where you can get any opinion on anything), doesn’t the fact that the GOVT of these countries is implementing a FP programme imply that Islam is not against FP.
    Further I think your definition of “forcing” is a bit too broad. On that basis all of us are being “forced” to work.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    SKS,
    Teesta Setalvad = Will of the People of Gujarat (India)
    Kashmiri Militants = Will of the people of Kashmir
    Narendra Modi = Will of the Government of Gujarat.

    See, how simple it is?
    Look, Teesta does not have “much” hold over the Kashmiri Militants. (Read: the Kashmiri militants do not even know who she is and they could not be bothered.)
    Teesta setalvad can only discomfit people who need to adhere to civilized norms of conduct and rules of law.
    When can we, the poor, ill-read masses in this country declare independence from the Commies?

    Ashish Reply:

    SKS,
    it takes a while; but, I have found, if you wake up early morning and recite the first 3 lines above about 100 times, it should help you become a better person.
    Now, repeat after me,
    Teesta Setalvad = Will of the People of Gujarat (India)
    Kashmiri Militants = Will of the people of Kashmir
    Narendra Modi = Will of the Government of Gujarat.

    Om Chomsky! Om Chomsky! Om Chomsky!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    If by commie you meant me, well then, thats not right. Anarcho-syndicalism is more near to my belief systems.

    Ashish Reply:

    yawn.. well, whatever… like heroin is to cocaine?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Syed

    Kerala’s 10 year (1991-2001)growth in population was 9.4%.

    The highest growth was in Malappuram, a 79% Muslim district,. The growth there was 18%. Statistically we can assume teh Muslim growth rate in kerala was around 17-20%. Although the growth rate is much higher than other districts/groups; it is much less than (almost half) of the prior decade. So, something has worked.

    The l,owest was PAthanamthitta, a predominantly christian (65%) district, at 3.8%.

    I do not know how the kerala Muslim growth compares woth the North indian demographic trends, However, it sshould be noted that the Kerala Muslim growth (at 18%) is less than the all India population growth (21.3%).

    I think (have not verified; based on memory) the Muslim growth rate in the three high Muslim population states of UP, Bihar, West Bengal is around 30%.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @syed
    What is the essence of your suggestion?
    As I said earlier,At the end of the day, you are forcing people to make choices which go against their religious beliefs?

    Remember Money (capital) is the main force behind every act of violence. If you check with the people on the Left who are by definition ” right” , they will tell you Money is Violence.

    In other words State Terror that too with Religious Motives. !!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    So these Deobandi students and teachers are lilly pure with no anger..

    Anwar Alwlaki, the spiritual mentor to the Muslim Major Hasan in the US Army who killed his thirteen fellow soldiers, states;

    ‘A Muslim soldier who fights Islamic countries is a heartless beast , bent of evil, who sells his religion for few dollars”.

    “the only way a Muslim could Islamically justify serving as a soldier in the US Army is if his intention is to follow the footsteps of men like Major Hasan”

    Btw they all like women .. Alwlaki, while studying in San Diego, was arrested for soliciting prostitutes. It was reported that Major HAsan also would visit strip clubs and tip handsomely to women who sat on his lap.

    A month after 9/11, Imam Johari Abdul-Malek, Imam at Dar-al-Hijrah mosque in Virginia, told New York Times ” Awlaki is held up as a new generation of Muslim leader capable of merging East and West”.

    Awlaki recetly released his CD “44 Ways to Support Jihad”. Any guess as to how many students and teachers at Darul uloom possess this CD?.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    can a non-muslim ask the muslim bodies for a fatwa ?

    I want to pose a question if Muslims are allowed to serve in the Kuffar’s army ?
    Is the muslim soldier religiously permitted to join the Indian army, when he may be called to fight against the land of the pure ?

    How can we get this question to be asked to the religious authority ?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    So, if this leader advocates the killing of US Soldiers because of the war with Afghanistan, will he advocate Indian Muslim soldiers killing other Indian soldiers in case India declares war with Pakistan?

    Muslim loyalty to the country will be suspect as long as these types of leaders and these types of incidents happen. Deobandi school should issue Fatwa separating them from these.

    Muslims have to “dig out” themselves – their insistence to be separate (burqua, hijab, skullcap, beard, madrasa, singing etc ) is further marginalizing them. Their fight always seems to be on yesterday’s stuff and not for tomorrow’s aspirations.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    it is important to get a fatwa from Deobandi school, regarding muslim soldier’s role in Kuffar indian army.

    until then, muslim soldiers should not be counted to standup and fight for india (against pakistan especially..)

    the sooner this issue is cleared the better.

    Can any of those deobandi leaders be approached through emails ?

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish@Gopi
    Thanks for reminding me about definition of atheism. (I am a bit late here). I think a clarification note may be in order to explain the difference between the violence committed by the followers of most dangerous religion vis-a-vis others:
    : Followers of one religion commit (or are alleged to ) violence because of Babri, Gujarat and – -(space-space)- – – . (use any word, show your creativity, of course, no prize here), but followers of the Most Dangerous religion do it simply because of ___ _____TVA. (complete the word by using 5 letters, only one combination exists and here is the clue – a country in sub continent, Bumper prizes if u get that right)

    Why does not the American people rise up in revolt and throw out this corrupt, venal, exploitative, failed capitalist mockery of a democracy that governs them

    Answer might be around these lines: :
    Very Good product but bad marketing oooops, (marketing was never in the picture.) The assumption was that their labor-Production formulation will ensure all produced all sold, Bingo. ( After all the buyers had the liberty to choose any product as long as it were X). Unfortunately the capital mafia by then had conspired to offer Y and Z options also. (Comparatively we had mandated The Best Product only) To complicate the matter further they unleashed a lethal propaganda using multiple channels viz, education, entertainment, sports, media; with the objective of distorting, target segment’s decision making ability. This was defined by them as Marketing. While all this was done in the name of promoting freedom and choice, the real agenda was dumbing them down to the level where they could not differentiate between their saviors and their class enemies, while diverting their attention away from centuries old oppression.

    Situation has become so bad that the auto unions of the big 3 (GM, Ford, chrysler, till recently the most potent symbols of centuries old oppression) have been reduced to lobbying to save “their” companies, and offering to sacrifice all the gains they had wrested through decades of their struggle. Decades-long effort to engineer a social revolution has turned on its head where management is making demands from the unions. (Empowerment?)

    In addition, Poor oppressed americans had no opportunity to see the superior quality of life in Just societies, such as North korea, Cuba etc because of the capitalist controlled media. People who have been subjected to such an onslaught on their capability to think cannot be expected to rise against anything, leave aside an exploiting capitalist democracy.

    Reality is more likely to be these: Differences between the language spoken by communist (or socialist, am too thick to spot the diff.) ideologues and their target population. Remember the whole science of social revolution was developed by people who had rarely seen a factory.

    Alternatively, it could be because the society as a whole has grown out of its teens , remember: “Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty Is proof of want of head.” In some it does take longer

    Leaving all that aside have you ever thought about the reasons behind creation of the leftist ideology? My thinking is this, the first ideologues were mighty impressed with the potential of industrial manufacturing once the labor-production equation was set. All will be equal. While our ideologues were busy designing standardizing our dreams, driven by the Belief that they had found answer to every human need in the Labor-Production framework, human creativity was pushing ahead to newer frontiers in every field creating new needs and finding newer ways of meeting the existing ones. Diversity of human intellect, imagination and efforts was too complex for our labour-production modellers. Development of the leftist ideology: From each according to his capability to each according to his need was a pathetic attempt to make a world they could understand instead of trying to understand the world as it could be. Unsurprising it failed. For the current generation of leftists to now concoct newer labels for the expired medicine adding some fizz here and some zing there is merely an indication of their intellectual bankruptcy and their fanaticism. Although I do have a feeling that the new age proponents of those discredited theories have chosen this path after assuring themselves that they won’t have to suffer the consequences as these ideologies can’t take center stage in their life times. While that being so what could be better than the opportunity to lecture the whole world on their lack of morality, make money on the side and earn a name for themselves all the while using the very tools which would have been out of everyone’s reach (except the party gods) had they succeeded in the first place.
    After slaughtering millions of lives and condemning billions to perpetual misery without hope in the name of experiments in social science, to now claim that a Mao or a Stalin did not really represent us, is sickening.

    To be outraged by US while prancing around with a constitution which considers Violence, (not withstanding its absence in one or more of the peppier versions) not only legitimate but necessary for the revolution is beyond disgust. No amount of twisting and falsifying the facts can wash away their bloodied hands.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    your point- and I quote- the new age proponents of those discredited theories have chosen this path after assuring themselves that they won’t have to suffer the consequences as these ideologies can’t take center stage in their life times. While that being so what could be better than the opportunity to lecture the whole world on their lack of morality, make money on the side and earn a name for themselves all the while using the very tools which would have been out of everyone’s reach (except the party gods) had they succeeded in the first place.-unquote
    is important and bears underlining.
    I have seen this in West Bengal, first hand. A state with proud heritage in literacy, culture and thought leadership is now in an irretrievable decline. Per the 1971 cenus, West Bengal was no 2 (couple of percentage points below Kerala) in literacy; today it is probably 15th or lower. All this while Jyoti Babu guzzled scotch, spent a month every year vacationing in London and sent his grandchildren to “Convent schools” while ensuring the proletariat got access to no English till their 6th class.
    Nothing, repeat nothing got (still no) done in West Bengal without the party being paid off. Not that anything much got done in any case. And, the real tragedy is that the West Bengal politics has now been shaped by the struggle between the left and “lefter”. Those who are hoping for relief after Mamata becomes CM, gosh, I pity them.
    It is a delicious irony that Gujarat is diametrically opposite West Bengal; by geography and ideology.
    Another point: sometime back, I compared Osama bin Laden with Kobad Gandhy. It was not meant in jest. First some background.
    The Naxalite movement in West Bengal was seeded and spearheaded by academically brilliant, upper middle-class/ rich kids studying in the most elite colleges in Calcutta. A whole generation of Presidency Calcutta fanned out in villages and recruited the poor villagers to their violent cause. Do you know where many of those brilliant kids are today? Spirited away by their influential parents with political connections to that “corrupt, venal, exploitative, failed capitalist mockery of a democracy” where they hold highly paid jobs.
    The poor peasants are where they always were.
    Kobad Ghandy today claims, he did not commit violence himself. He was just a “preacher”, an ideologue. For an anarchist, his touching faith in the law of the Indian state and nothing but the best in legal defence in the form of Prashant Bhushan is touching. His media manager is Arundhati Roy; who wants the “state” to talk to him. How is Kobad Ghandy different from Bin Laden, who probably does not kill himself (not too many at any rate) but recruits, brainwashes and lets loose a murderous gang on the rest of humanity?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear friends SKS and Ashish

    A word of friendly advice: you know, it does not hurt to read and know a bit about things that one is talking of and about. At least once in a while. Its not a good idea to openly brag about your ignorance……Not that I resent it too much. I have to admit that it does provide me with an opportunity to have a good laugh!

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    bobby & like..

    can you comment on the religious cleric from Saudi (who sets the religious curriculum for schools) who says islam permits slavery..

    do you agree with him ?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @bobby, feel happy. Thankfully I have not yet caught the disease from you..

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @syed
    Another potential slogan against your FP suggestion could be: you can’t our Faith, you can’t buy our manhood. Neither for money, nor for anything else.

    To answer your question about my seriousness, yes I was not. But to assume that similar arguments will not be made won’t be correct.
    But I am serious that some political theories do consider money/property to be sin, violence and for them large part of humanity is in the grip of violence perpetrated by money.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Apparently, the KSA ambassador left a meeting attended by the President etc, because Ram Jethmalini mentioned that the militant Wahabism is destroying the good (?) name of Islam and spreading violence.

    I also read about this new multi-billion dollar university in KSA, where students from other countries are admitted with full tuition/boarding plus stipend paid — all to induce change from outside in.

    Now to this unholy alliance between Islamists and Leftists. Isnt it interesting that the “Godless” leftists and “Godful” Islamists are in ying-yang mode now. The chief (educated) mullah Sayyed Qutb accepted the Marxian version of stages of history, adding that an eternal Islamic era will take over after the fall of communism and capitalism.

    George Gallaway, the leftist British MP/apologist for dicattors has said “progressive” movement and Muslims have same dreams.

    Noan Chomsky did not have any problem in Hasran Nasrullah procuring weapons (I neither; I will take Nasrullah any time compared to Saudis).

    Durng the cold war Islamists favored godless Soviet Union to a religious USA.

    Olivier Beasancenot, a French leftist, sees Islamists as the new “slaves” of capitalism and it is natural “they should unite with the working class to destroy the capitalistic system”.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    how did that guy have the audacity to leave a meeting where the President of India was attending and was still seated? No, don’t bother answering.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    “he has implied India need not lkeep an eye on Islamic terrorists; that is Pakistan’s job”

    I have not implied such a stupid statement at all. I meant Islamic fundamentalism, which is a serious problem in Pakistan. Fundamentalism which is being breed through islamic seminaries and schools there. its a big problem. There could be connections between their intelligence, army and terrorists. So it makes sense for them to debate it, and try to force their government to keep check on these by taking steps like secularizing the countries institutions.

    Thats not the main problem here. While its true that madarsas here do not provide a modern scientific education, but it definetly does not breed terrorists. There are hardly any indian muslims in any international islamic terror network. The home grown ones that exist are effected by national crimes, and cite them as reasons for terror attacks.

    Islamic fundamentalists do not have any major hold on Indian politics and/or government/intelligence/army etc. On the other hand at least one serving army man has been charged as having links with hindutva terror organizations. Also the hindutva organizations have much stronger hold on the government and intellegence, simply because of being the majority. So its this hindutva fundamentalism that poses a bigger problem in the Indian context.

    This does not mean that the army/police/intellegence should not track the LeT or other terror groups, but rather that there is nothing to be done in this case, except good policing and having good intelligence.

    There is nothing much Indian citizens can do. On the other hand, hindutva terrorism is not just a matter of policing and intelligence, because unlike the islamic fundamentalism, its largely internal. Therefore this is a bigger threat to India.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    I think you are giving too much credit to the commi training. The only thing original in his comments is his rich vocabulary beginning from #*#? !!** to **##!?!?*. I would not be surprised if Guide Books are discovered containing statements with blank spaces to be used for contextualisation viz, addition of Hindutva terror and stuff like that.

    See here the workbook on who should criticize whom with examples
    http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20020214.htm
    This is considered intellectual evolution commi style. This is why I keep on saying that arguing with him is sheer waste, but it is necessary once in a while to state your position lest other participants who aren’t too familiar with leftist black box are not led to believe that those profoundly colored views are unchallenged.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Congratulations, SKS. You are making progress. From visiting deobandi websites, with views from the 7th century, you have started visiting websites with views and ideas of the leading intellectuals of the modern world. Thats a good start.

    For anyone interested in how power structures work, especially global political power structures: Instead of accepting Kinter-Garden answers like “its due to the BOOK”, or visiting whacko islamic and/or RSS websites for answers; ReadNoam Chomsky. One of the deepest thinkers of the modern age.

    My last post on this topic. Sorry for the digression.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    If there were a few things where Ms Roy would not show her double standards, in my opinion, it would very likely be her advice to US Govt on Bin Laden vis-a-vis to Indian Govt on Kabad Gandhi. Although I haven’t seen it yet.

    On your point about the rich, connected and Intellectual revolutionaries of West Bengal, you should see the movie Hazaron Kwahishen Aisi, (if u haven’t). That movies is a telling comment on the morality of pious revolutionaries and the immoral capitalist (shiney Ahuja).

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Bobby @SKS

    Islamic terrorism is the number one threat to the democratic world in general and to India in particular. I would put Naxalism behind Totalitarian Islamic terrorism.

    Anybody who brushes off that threat is living in a fool’s paradise. The rich, highly educated, highly privileged Ahmed brothers from Bangalore who explode bombs in Glasgow or the rich kids from Kannur who explodes bombs in Kashmir are not isolated cases, but the products of a system that has its roots in the sands of 700 AD Arabia, iun a world where women were tools, and men went on killing. They do not have any love to India; they breathe the constrictions of Arabia. Violence is their foundation, intolerance their principle. They are the only ones for whom you and I are not God’s chlldren; and India is accommodated under a made to fit Dar al Aman concept, a temporary arrangement until it becomes dar al islam.

    What is happening in Pakistan is not an isolate case. The winds will blow here; they will not jump fast because of the fear of a Gujrat repeat. But they are waiting. It will be Gangetic bloodshed if Muslims venture into extremism.

    Hinduata actions are nothing, it cannot motivate one hundred thousand people, leave alone the majority. However, the Quran and Mullahs can motivate the bulk of the 180 million uneducated, primitive ones. We have seen it everywhere including India. I would say that it is the Muslim terrorism leading the Indian army guy to go after Muslims.

    I endorse SKS concept of one nation, one set of rules. We have appeased these guys for 60 years, it is more than enough. Time to move on.

    And a country’s sole purpose is not to please minority. That works against all
    democratic principles..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SKS

    So good old capitalism is better than communism because communism has been defeated (largely because USSR could not match the military expenses of the US which continues to remain the world’s dominant exporter of military hardware) and the lifestyle & growth enjoyed by capitalists is so much better than that enjoyed under communism. This of course does not take into account the tremendous level of environmental degradation at every level that mother earth had to suffer, because one of the main mantras of capitalism is growth- come what may. (That the consequences of this environmental catastrophe will be felt by our children & grandchildren is another issue). And now the US has practically brought over so many other companies through its multi trillion dollar kitty (reverse communism?) . Of course there are many other issues…
    That’s not to say I support communism.. The ideal would be a capitalist economy with a strong socialist bent. Indeed that’s what the US is morphing into.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Also to add, the statement that capitalism is making the lifestyles of the people living in such systems better, has to be qualified with the words– “for a small minority of people”. The fact of the matter is that neo-liberal policies, starting from the Raegen era, has resulted in a extreme inequality in the US in particular. Can you even imagine, that the richest country in the world still debates whether to have universal health insurance!!! This is what happens when the views that SKS espoused in some other post, takes precedence ie :- “economic reasons become more important than other identities”…for instance human bonds.

    Of course this is even more true in India, with unbelievable inequality levels. Studies on the social mobility index shows that the US with UK has the worst record as far as alleniating poverty is concerned in the industrialized world.

    http://cep.lse.ac.uk/about/news/IntergenerationalMobility.pdf

    The UNHDI index shows that in India, while the number of millionares and billionares is going up, the number of poor is significantly going up as well.

    Thats true unfortunately all over the world…and can easily be tracked to precisely the neo-liberal policies. This is in fact causing resentment in much of the world. This results in naxalism in India, and the rise of Christian fundamentalism in the US. The resistance is taking various forms, somesecular and some religious, some non-violent, which are usual easily crushed, to be replaced by violent resistance.

    The attempt should be to try and get better political systems. Its not just a choice between Corporate capitalism and state socialism- “Leninist style”. The attempt is to find better models than the ones that exist or used to exist. This is called progress.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I meant developed economies, and not industrialized world.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    The point of environmental degradation taken up by Syed, is a very good point, and I completely agree.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    it is the common fallacy of those who choose to shirk accountability to always look for a system that will deliver. It is as pointless as praying for rain.
    Systems do not deliver, people do. People take responsibilities for their own future and work for it.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    If we had that outlook , then the “caste system” would not have changed, nor system of slavery, nor feudalism, and women would still be treated as property of men as they had been for ages.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    I do not think any of us here are Ayn Rand acolytes; there is an age for Marx and there is (probably around the same age) time for Ayn Rand and we have definitely grown out of that.
    Incidentally, your last sentence seemed like the editorial policy of the Economist :-)
    Yes, in the short term, it needed the strong “cost push” from having to match US spending on star wars to bring the Soviet Russia to its knees and trigger the domino effect which brought the political systems in the Eastern European countries crashing down. However, the real prooof of the defeat of communism (and triumph of capitalism, if you will) is not in Russia or East Europe; it is in China.
    Also, it is important to separate the ideology from how that has morphed into a political system in many parts of the world. The European model of capitalism (with its many variants; varying levels of the role of the state in running your life) is different from the US model. The Cuban model is different from North Korea; both are the last bastions of communism in the world; some say, of course, that West Bengal will be the last bastion of the communists.
    Yep, I am as unhappy as anyone else about the US bailout; seems like it is okay to fail if you are a really fat cat. Mice (and men) will be sacrificed to keep you secure. I am no expert; but, I have read some strongly argued essays for and against the bailout. The ones arguing for seemed to say that
    a) the consequences for a bailout are less painful than not bailing out AND, if that sounds like a blackmail
    b) If you eradicated all risky practices from banking then you will pay for it by virtue of increased costing for loans, stiffer compliance for funding etc which will stifle innovation. Over a, say, 30 years horizon, they even out.
    Does not make me happy; I am not a banker. Just thought I would throw this in the mix to answer the reverse communism point.
    And, environmental pollution? Yes, the west has been guilty but, the solutions are being innovated there as well.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Bobby, Ashish
    Bobby you have a point when you say that capitalism mainly benefits only a small minority. However capatilist govts with a socialist slant have solved the issue by simply increasing the tax on the higher income groups which is pretty fair. Likewise for the health care issue which US is trying to sort out at least now.
    My life experiences (for whatever they are worth) have taught me that the best path is always the middle one. So extremism in any field (pure capitalism/pure communism, religion etc.) does not make the cut. Excess of communism will lead to issues that Ashish has described in Bengal, make no mistake. You are right, we should try better models, indeed one of the reasons why capitalism has survived and spread is because the sine qua non of a good capitalist system is encouraging and rewarding innovations, which unfortunately is not the case in a communist system.

    @Ashish
    China is THE success story, no debate here. However one little issue here – it is not a democracy & the ruling party can do pretty much whatever they want. It calls itself a socialist people’s democratic dictatorship (figure that out). Can you replicate such a system successfully elsewhere?. I doubt it.
    reg banking issues in the US, while it can be argued that in the long term, the problems would have sorted themselves out through closures/mergers/acquisitions etc. & he industry would have emerged stronger, politicians always have much shorter time horizon & hence the bailouts.
    From the Indian perspective you can go ahead & put all your money in any private indian bank & rest assured, it will not be allowed to fail as the prevailing view in the RBI is that – no bank will be allowed to fail.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear syed,

    I have not asked for “pure communism”. If you look at the posts carefully, its the trio of Ashish, SKS and Gopi who have assumed that I am a communist and spoken what they think is in my mind. Thats because they have the simple outlook- opposite of capitalism is communism. Obviously, they know neither what capitalism means, nor the meaning of communism. The point of trying to find a better system of governance does not seem to go beyond the two isms for them!

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish

    To elaborate on China – In a standard capitalist model the state/govt. is supposed keeps itself an “arms length” from private industry (the debate on the american banking bailout you quoted) . However in China the state actively encourages and supports industry through every conceivable means even going to the extent of displacing entire villages/towns. This in essence is one of the main reasons for the success of China over other countries.
    You cannot replicate this in any other developed capitalist country.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    while urging the separation of the ideology from the political system it frequently morphs into, there is another thing I should have emphasised.
    That is, the links between democracy/ autocracy/ theocracy (system of government), capitalism/ collectivism- as in economic system (Marxism straddles economic and political worlds, so I am being careful here), rule of law vs despotism/ nepotism etc. are not always apparent.
    It is the modern paradigm that capitalism coupled with democratic polity and rule of law (same law for everyone) is the *best* system. That seems to be flavour of the day. Will that change? Maybe in 30 years time, some other mix would hold sway. But it would not be out of place to mention that all of us in this blog are beneficiaries of the capitalist/ democratic/ rule of law system. However, a country can be ruled by barely democratic to despotic regimes and still be capitalistic. As they can be “communist”. In China, it is a Plutarchy + Capitalism + rule of discipline (as against rule of law).
    Now, back to my point about China. Let China’s political system be what it is; its economics is capitalist or rapidly progressing that way. Within 2 generations, the denizens of one of the most rigidly orthodox people (ideologically) repudiated the Book with as little fanfare as possible. THey still “religiously” prostrate before Mao but, follow none of his teachings. That is what I meant by the triumph of capitalism in China.
    The point is not about replicating the Chinese model; I am not a fan, just an avid China watcher for the past 15 odd years.
    And, back to the point on this blog and the point you made in a previous post: “as Christianity was defeated by Christians(and I add as Communism in China was subverted by the Chinese communists) Islam has to be defeated by Muslims”.
    It will be. It better be; in the best interests of Muslims themselves.
    History teaches us that no totalitarian philosophy has lasted.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    You forgot to add the most important example of such state capitalism- THE USA, where also the STATE gives away subsidies to the rich corporates- the agro buisness, or the automobile industry, or the current bail out. There is no country in the world which is a free market. Definitely none of the big powers.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Free Market with a tight governmental regulation protecting people’s health, freedom, rights etc is the right approach. Free market in itself is bad. Too much governmental interference and controis are also bad; right balance is the key.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    All

    Why are we discussing Communism/Capitalism? Zias subject is the mild mannered , misunderstood, anti-terrorism Deobandis. Let us get back to that.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @ S Singh,
    agree :-)
    However, I did make amends by coming to the point (albeit after a log-winded discourse on political philosophy and what have you ;-) ) .. simple, really. Islam needs to be defeated as communism- another totalitarian philosophy, that seeks to guide every aspect of your life- was defeated (at least put under retreat) by its own adherents.
    You see, Mr Singh, I was right. Read Gopi’s note on another most interesting Deoband Declaration regarding secular education…. the Mullahs as smart; they can’t afford to let the Muslims get secular education. Because, then their “catchment area” for creating indoctrinated Muslims who can only depend on religion to make a living gets diminished.
    The biggest threat all organized religions face is not from other religions but from disinterested people. This also explains why the Pope is reaching out to Muslims in Europe because both of them are facing dwindling congregrations –> reduced earnings ;-)

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Modesty of Trained Parrots can go only as far as their belief that they were the first.

    Purest expression of Human Bond : Bangalore Born Doctors blowing up Airports in UK to alleviate the suffering of Iraqi brothers.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    the classic Hanuman joke retold:
    Q: Why is Dr Bilal Abdullah like Hanuman?
    A: Yaar, Hanuman ko dekho. Biwi ek kisi ki, ghar aur kisi ka.. poonchh jali kiski??

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS @Ashish

    More on human bond — the 30th Jamiat Deobandi session which Zia recently attended had another interesting resolution. Resolution 16 appeals to Muslims to set up schools and colleges. Coming from Deobandis, this is a big surprise. However, the rationale provided “is to establish human bond”! The English translation says, these schools are needed because “A section of Muslim students who get admission in government and semigovernment/private common instituitions for modern courses get isolated and sometimes become unaware about their Islamic values (???)”. Apparently, the Urdu original goes even harder “That Muslims (“not just a section as in the Enfglish translation) who take admission in Govt and semi govt instituitions to acquire modern education generally becomes neglectful of Islam because of the “Deen Dushman” (fiercely opposed to Islam) environment theerin”.

    It is on theiir website.

    And Muslims (including Zia) complains about ghettoization!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Bobby @SKS @ Syed @ Ashish

    Bobby has already declared I do not know capitalism or communism. Well, his Guru Noam Chomsky stated in one of his books “the person who throws mud always wins”.

    Several points/issues/items.. “the rise of Christian fundamentalism in US against capitalism ……’
    Nothing can be more false than this..The Republican Party (considered to be the party of rich) has become a regional party, most ly supported by fundamentalist Christians, or “right wing Christians” as they say. South (so called ‘red” states) is a bastion of theirs. Paradoxically they are much poorer than people on either coasts.. These states, while having the largest uninsured population, are the most vocal against the Universal or any other health care reform! , Even democratic senators/congressmen representing these states (such as Senator Landrieu of Louisiana, Senator Lincoln of Arkansas, Senator Nelson of Nebraska ) follow their peoples’ wish and generally vote against any “social’ programs!

    The capitalist system created the largest middle class in US. It has resulted in universities like Stanford, UPenn, MIT; created innovative companies like Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Amgen, juniper etc etc , produced countless innovations that took human kind far and far into improved living conditions, and in many cases saving zillions of lives etc etc…The exchange we are having now would not have been possible but not for the platform created by a slave under capitalism.

    Of course, unfrettered capitalism without proper governmental regulations and inadequate regulatory structure creates havoc as has been proved by the meltdown of last year. USA may never fully recover from this, and like all systems may start to decline. However, Americans are generally good at swinging the pendulum to the right poistion fast. We will see.

    US has the best anti pollution rules, except for may be one or two small European countries. Their EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) is a powerful agency;. When republicans are in control, they try to “rein in” them, and when the pro social democrats are in control, they expand them. The irony is that it was created when Nixon, a republican, was the president.

    Any system which does not take into account the creativity and freedoms of individuals is bound to fail. Communism and Socialism failed as economic and social systems with calamitous loss and destruction of human lives. Islamo Fascism will also fail because of its goal and focus on Umma and not individual.

    At the end of the day, people have to be educated, good jobs have to be created, new medicines and other life saving techniques have to be invented, new discoveries have to be made, living standards have to be raised, a platform has to be built where our children and grand children will have potentially better lives than us . Looks like the USA system has done these better than any other systems in the last two hundred years.

    I am fond of saying that Indira Gandhi created two generations of poor people. We would have been far better off if liberalization occurred long ago; because it is in our people to create, build. Indians (except Muslims because of their unique systems) do wonderfully well when they study/migrate to USA. They create companies (30% of new start ups in Silicon Valley is Indian initiated), they lead universities, run companies (even when woman CEO is a rarity, Mrs Indra Nooyi became the CEO of Pepsico (partly because she is a Brahmin bigot, daughter of a bank employee Brahmin bigot). So, indians have in them to unleash creativity provided the right environment is available. We should be thankful to Narasimha Rao and Manmohan Singh for ushering in an era of of 7-9% growth compared to the 2-3% socialist “Hindu” growwth under Nehru-Mrs Gandhi..

    What really ails (or protects) the US system is its peculiar legislative branch. Since each state has two senators, and two senators only, it does not matter if hugely popu;ous states like California, New york vote for Democratic party. So, in a sense, 500,000 people Wyoming has equal stand with 30 million people California. Hence, major changes in the system, especially overhaul of regulations etc, is impossible unless the President’s party has a lopesided majority (like 80 or so to take into account regional differences). The legislative system cannot be changed unless the constituition is amended. And the amendmend of the constituition has to have all (or two thirds ) states to ratify. So, it will never happen; and at the end, this may bring their downfall.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “the rise of Christian fundamentalism in US against capitalism ……”

    Dear Gopi, that was not what I said or how I meant it…but never mind….this is going way beyond the original post as S. Singh has correctly reminded us.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    Hanuman example is more like Hindu Kings misusing animals for their selfish objectives.

    Human bonding, the purest one is a different category altogether.

    Now since everybody is back to the subject will Mr Zia be kind enough to use another post to explain the real meaning of Dar-Ul-Uloom’s write up on Islam and Terrorism so that the (http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/teachings/index2.htm )remaining doubts
    are also addressed. They also don’t seem to agree with your claim of Greater Jihad being the one about self reformation.

    Or he thinks there is nothing there which should be a cause of concern for any one.

    [Reply]

  • Gautam Sehgal

    Hi Zia,

    If you want to do a service to Muslims, try to make the next generation like yourself, well educated, aware and articulate. That is why I believe Deoband is the biggest threat to Islam and peace in the world today. There are more terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan than in Saudi Arabia because people can read but don’t understand Arabic. They know the Koran by heart, but think it preaches hatred because that’s what a product of Deoband told them. Let them understand the Koran for themselves.

    I am against the Deobandi brand of Islamic teaching and all madarsas for the following reasons. Both of my reasons have to do with my stint as an army officer in Kashmir from 1995-1998.

    80% of all radical clerics in Kashmir who preached Jihad (not of the internal cleansing variety, the RDX/ AK-56 variety) were trained in Deoband. We came across Bihari and Bangladeshi Imams settled in Kashmir preaching hatred. The demand for merging Kashmir with Pakistan was being raised by Bangladeshis!!!

    In Doda, I met a 10-12 year old boy who would come and talk to me everyday, because I was the doctor. He was a very intelligent young boy, eager to learn, very well mannered and obviously well raised by his poor parents. He wanted to a doctor when he grew up. I asked him what he was studying at school to see if I could help with his studies. He replied “Koran, Arabic, Farsi, Urdu.”

    When he grows up, his frustration at not getting the tools or the knowledge to realize his ambitions could make him a terrorist. It broke my heart to realize that most young children in Kashmir study in Madarsas.

    Having a computer lab at Deoband is an eyewash and a travesty, because the Madarsas that these Imams go out and establish don’t teach even basic language and Math. Poor parents send their wards to school in the hope of preparing them for the future, not for life in the Arabian desert 1000 yrs ago.

    Madarsas have no place in modern education. I have nothing against having 1-2 classes/ week dedicated to religion, but the bulk of the curriculum should be mainstream. There should be a few schools of religious training for those who specifically want to be Religious teachers.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.kanchanaburi.go.th/au/webboard/index.php?action=profile;u=23963 Shin Therien

    Hi! I found your blog on Yahoo.It’s really comprehensive and it helped me a lot.

    Continue the good work!

    [Reply]

  • http://tv-asahidata.com/ dorama

    I really liked your blog! It helped me alot…

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000559516830 Maina Cpk Sadiya

    Yes he was born in Sadiya sub division of Tinsukia district in eastern most part of Assam

    [Reply]

  • Lines Flight

    Ridiculous arguments.

    1) Jyoti Basu brushed off the rape of Anita Dewan in a crass and insensitive manner. So, that allows Ms. Banerjee to do the same thing? What then differentiates her from Mr. Basu? They seem to be cut from the same piece of cloth!

    2) If the TMC government blames the previous administration for everything, then to whom should currently affected citizens go to for redress. Assuming executive political power comes with a baggage of responsibilities. Ms. Banerjee and her party need to realize that agitational politics ends when powers of government are assumed by a political party. Nothing that Ms. Banerjee or her party has done inspires any confidence in these matters.

    3) The assertion that just because no one raised a hue and cry about attacks on TMC political workers by the then Left Government, the same should be the case when TMC workers attack CPIM workers is just crass. This is the politics of revenge. Is this the ethic of the TMC?

    Let’s get real!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Didi’s swing to the extreme right is not remedy to Basu’s swing to extreme Left. Neither optimism, nor pessimism but realism must be helped to prevail. For that Mamatha needs good friends in the media and NGO groups to put her in touch with harsh realities. Who will bell the cat? The Onchiyam murder exploding in Kerala unravels the real face of our Marxists and their tacticks to usher in the peace of the cemetry through the barrel of the gun.

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Arnab Mitra laments the allegedly “strong influence of Marxists among the journalists”- would he count Bartaman, Anandabazar etc among the Marxist influenced papers?
    This is the most third rate analysis I have seen coming from a national newspaper’s editorial staff. Of course, Mr Mitra might justify his brain freeze on an education system right royally screwed up by the CPM. Or, is the Hindustan Times threatened by not being on the “approved list” of newspapers in public libraries?
    I have no sympathy left for the people of West Bengal- they really deserve their rulers. As if suffering 34 years of left front rule was not enough, they bring in Mamata- with protectionist, left of left instincts (let’s not glorify them by calling it an ideology) and essentially demonstrated clueless-ness in running an administration- remember her stint as Railway minister?
    The criticism against Mamata’s insensitive comments are as much a comment on her lack of sensitivity as lacking any idea about how to go about doing her work.
    The tragedy is not Mamata or CPM; the real tragedy is the people of “Waste Bengal”- and their (as Nirode Chaudhuri would say) “atma-ghati”- suicidal instincts.

    As an aside, the real comic element was in the this line: “We watched patiently as the CPI(M)-led Left Front completely destroyed a vibrant state over 34 years.”
    Really? West Bengal was a vibrant state in 1977? It’s not tobacco that I smell here.

    [Reply]

  • mridul

    Students in Kerala are now forced to learn three languages at a time in primary classes Malayalam,English,Hindi.No other country boast of this legacy,this new form child labor.

    [Reply]

  • mmmm

    **** off,please

    [Reply]