Jamiat: One step forward, two steps backward



Cheap thrills come at a price and it must have run into crores. How else can you get half a million clerics to oppose India’s sanitized national song, Vande Mataram?

The Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind (literally association of Indian Muslim clerics), at its November 2-3 conclave, passed a resolution endorsing a 2006 fatwa (decree) against singing Vande Mataram by influential seminary Darul Uloom in western Uttar Pradesh’s Deoband. I know the Jamiat rather well to know that this was done purely for publicity’s sake.

Had he not been the heir-apparent of the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, Rajya Sabha MP Mahmood Madni would have been a very good journalist. He ensured the conclave passed the resolution because he instinctively knows what gullible editors would play up.

I am no stranger to Darul Uloom either, having first broken the news of the seminary’s commendable fatwa against terrorism, whose architect was Mahmood Madni.

However, editors — as they always do — missed the woods for the trees by focusing on Vande Mataram. They looked at one passing resolution at expense of several others that needed a closer, critical look to get a sense of where the Jamiat was seeking to take Muslims.

The gains made by the Jamiat in having a decree issued against terror in February 2008 are now being lost to its overall regressive social agenda.

The rejection of a madrassa board, opposition to women’s reservation and real education, focus on a predominantly religious identity overriding every other and a general lack of fresh, progressive ideas have exposed the lack of vision the Jamiat suffers from.

Honestly, I do not think singing of Vande Mataram can be the ultimate test of any Indian’s patriotism. And from an Islamic perspective, there were some legitimate issues regarding the song.

Why did clerics — the same ones who fought tirelessly for our freedom from British rule and against Muslim League’s idea of Pakistan — oppose the national song in the first place? They did so because, according to them, in its original form, Vande Mataram had the tenor, tone and imagery of a Hindu devotional song rather than a patriotic song.

A committee led by Jawaharlal Nehru expunged parts that appeared to clash with Islamic principles.

The original song posed a technical problem for Muslims. The most significant and immutable principle of Islam is that Allah alone is worthy of worship. The song seemed to contradict this first pillar of Islam called the Shahada.

The first of the five pillars of Islam is the Muslim profession of faith. Shahada is the nominal form of the verb sahida, which means “to testify”. It embodies two simple core beliefs. The first is: “There is no god but Allah” (La illahah illa’lla). The second is: “And Mohammed is his Prophet” (Wah Mohammadan rasulu ‘llah).

Simply saying the Shahada with the intent of becoming a Muslim immediately makes you one. The operative word here is ‘intent’. If you say the Shahada without the intention of becoming a Muslim, you do not become one.

Intent is a sacred, crucial concept in Islam, frequently referred to as ‘niyat’. Any cleric will tell you that. You need to make intent or niyat before offering every namaaz and fasting, without which the prayers are not valid, no matter how correctly you observe or perform them.

There is a lesson to be learnt from this, as we confront the issue of Vande Mataram. Since intent is so critical to our faith, my view is, if a Muslim sings our national song without the intent of worship but simply with the zeal of patriotism, it will not constitute a breach of the Islamic creed.

That is why I have had no second thoughts on singing Vande Mataram. So the way forward, as I have always suggested, lies in re-reading the Texts and re-opening the gates of Ijtihad or Islamic reasoning.

However, the Jamiat resolution on Vande Mataram is not the reason why I am worried. It is hardly the most pressing of issues involving Indian Muslims today.

It is the Jamiat’s strategy to posit itself as the unelected Muslim authority with a dated social agenda that is worrying. The assumption that the clerics represent all Indian Muslims is itself erroneous. However, the Jamiat, with its countrywide cadre of clerics, has hypothesized itself as the Muslim leadership.

The Jamiat’s commitment to a unified, democratic national Indian polity cannot be questioned. That is why it is a centrist organization, unlike rightist organizations like Bangladesh’s Jamaat-i-Islami.

But the Jamiat’s social agenda is based on an utterly conservative platform. Interestingly, it has shot down the plan for a madrassa board with a rather ‘modernist’ argument.

A madrassa is meant to produce only clerics, just like a medical college is intended to produce doctors, the Jamiat has argued. So, those who choose to be cleric naturally enroll in a madrassa, it says. On the face of it, this may seem to be a sound argument.

However, the choice being talked about here is, in reality, no choice at all. This is evident when you juxtapose the Christian clergy with Muslim clerics. A Christian priest knows his science and geography. And despite this, he chooses religion as his vocation. A madrassa student, on the other hand, never has the opportunity to choose between geography, science, maths and theology. So what choice is the Jamiat talking about?

As Muslims, it is important for us to produce enough clerics to keep our religion alive and lead our prayers. But that is no reason to exile them from basic modern education.

The Quran itself repeatedly emphasizes the need for knowledge and scholarship. Chapter 39 of the Quran, verse 09, revealed in Mecca states:

“Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.”

The very first verse of the Quran revealed to the Prophet on the night of 27th of Ramadan in 611 AD reads: “Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created man from a clot. Recite: And thy Lord is the Most Generous Who taught by the pen, taught man that which he knew not.” (Quran, 96:1-5)
Then, chapter 20, verse 114, states: “Say My Lord! Increase me in knowledge.”

Yet, the Jamiat repeatedly chooses to shut the doors of knowledge on its clerics.

Raising symbolic, non-substantive issues has indeed become the hallmark of not only the Muslim clergy, but also the Muslim political leadership. There is no larger debate on how these will materially benefit Muslims.

The Jamiat has again demanded Muslim reservation, implementation of the Sachar Committee recommendations in full, tabling of the Liberhan Commission report and also opposed the women’s reservation bill, apart from calling for freeing Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan from foreign occupation.

These are largely symbolic issues that can instantly mobilize masses. The Deobandis have played an important role in freedom movement but they did so from a conservative platform and that is simply not the way forward.

Historically, the Indian State has always pandered to such conservative religious platforms because it is economical to do so. Tabling of Liberhan report, for example, requires no huge investment. On the other hand, demands from progressive Muslims would be much more expensive, who are more likely to demand high-cost welfare programmes, like scholarships for example.

For the Jamiat, Islam and Muslim identity have always been the legitimizing political discourse. Their call to freedom was based on the Islamic principle of defending one’s motherland. Fair enough.

Now, why not apply Islam to achieve other social milestones? It is time for the Jamiat to come out of the identity cauldron.

There is a simple truth behind why the Jamiat bosses oppose modern education in madrassas. They would never want to be out of business. Precisely what will happen if millions of poor, impoverished Muslims acquire the three R’s of education — Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic.

1 Star2 Stars3 Stars4 Stars5 Stars (8 votes, average: 3.75 out of 5)
Loading ... Loading ...
  • S Singh

    Zia

    Why do you even need “madrasa” graduates to”keep religion alive and lead in our prayers”.. Why cannot there be an Ijtihad so that prayers are “individual’s”, not needing another person to guide – like a Hindu who goes (or does not go) to a temple and prays without anybody guiding. Why dont Muslims go to a mosque and pray with th mulla being one who takes care of the mosque. A Hindu temple priest does not have any “advice giving or prayer leading” role; and in 99% of the cases worshippers may not even care about him.

    A truly respected Hindu swami (like Swami Chinmayananda, Mukhthananda etc) becomes a Swami on his own hard work of learning, reserach and generally is excellent at articulating philosophy, science, religion etcc; without any specific focus on Hinduism, but more on the universe. He is not designated by a religiuous centralized authority.

    Similarly, in Christianity, although the cardinals etc are obviously bound by the church rules, the religious leaders (bishops, cardinals etc) are highly learnt people who can articulate various concepts, religion, other rligions, science etc.

    So, do you even need Madrasas? What ahppens if they are all shut down? Muslims (and their religion) definitely will be in a worse situation if they are relying on these illiterate people to guide their religion. It is even more pathetic that the Government nof india will follow their recommendations!

    [Reply]

    Abdul Rahman Reply:

    Mr Singh,

    The prayers are individualistic in Islam like other religions as well. But we also have a congregational prayer that requires someone to lead like the christians have a priest who lead their prayers on sunday and other such religious occassions. Any muslim can lead a congregational prayer. It doesn’t require a degree holder. All you need is a person learned enough to offer the prayer.

    Madarsas, originally were schools for the poor. It was meant to impart basic knowledge including religion. over the years in indian subcontinent because of varous socio-economic reason that are well known, these institutes became a hub for religious teaching because the mullas and others couldnot themselves get better education and so cannot impart knowledge which they don’t possess. Religion is easy.

    Government of India and the working educated like us have a responsiblity to uplift this section of India, who have been and will continue to be a part of the glory of the motherland.

    Infact, it’s not only the muslim society but the other backward society also needs our helping hand to come forward and be a part of the success of the country.

    Islam doesn’t depend on these Mullahs and their organisations. It depends on the Holy Book Quran and Hadith (the sayings and deeds of the Prophet Mohammed s.a.w). That’s why it has remained to be the dominant religion for 14 centuries and the second largest populated religion of the world.

    [Reply]

    Rehan Reply:

    Zia Bhai,
    I simply love ur intentions and hard work to understnad islam. i totally agree with ur views about the Madni sahab and also agree that the door of ijtihad must be open.
    See one need to have a guide to understand any subject or religion thats why prophets are send along with the books. u must try and get some good alim to answer ur legitimate queries because u r privileged to express ur views at ur will and influence the prominent people.
    I totally agree that Vande Matram a national song is against the basic tenets of Islam but would differ with ur personal view on intentions and Vande Matram. (although I know the issue was raised to gain publicity). U r mistaken by using logic to prove wrong things. When anyone kills other or commit some crime without intention would any court of law on this earth will set him free just because he did not intended. At the most actions against him will be lesser if intentions are proved which is very difficuilt. Hidden Intentions can not justify horrendous Actions/Crime (Gunah) in front of the Law and Shariah is a Constitution and the Law. Intentions will be judged by Allah in the Aakhirah (Life hereafter).
    I also agree with u that raising symbolic, non-substantive issues has indeed become the hallmark of not only the Muslim clergy, but also the Muslim political leadership but m against the list of issues u raised. Reservations to weaker sections is guaranteed in the Indian Constitution. Recommendations of Sachar committee is the need of the hour and the justice on the issue of Babri masjid case can never be termed symbolic.
    As far as Madarsa Board is concern students must get the choice to learn other language.
    But first of all they must get the choice to survive. Most of the Madarsa students are from poor family who can not feed their children how can they afford their education and so they opt for madarsas who not only educate them but also provide them with food and shelter.
    I also agree that Madarsa Board must be accepted by the ulemas and be modernized but here the majority of Muslims are suspecting the govt. intentions. The govt. who are not bothered about the 96% of poor Muslims who want to go to school but cant afford them why so much concern over 3 or 4% of the muslims, mostly, who are opting for madarsa not by choice but by compulsions.

    May Allah guide us to the right path. Ameen.

    [Reply]

  • Khan sahab

    Mr Zia, please correct your blog ->National song is NOT ‘Vande matram’, but ‘Jan gan Man’.
    Also, please elaborate what is status of Urdu najm ‘Saare jahan se Acha’. Why are muslims being ‘forced’ to sing ‘vande matram’, while, hindu organizations like RSS, VHP, BJP do not even mention ‘Saare Jahan se Acha’. Is it because a muslim wrote it?

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Youmust be demented to think that hindu organizations do not sing sare jehana se achchha . I have sung it in RSS sakha of all places..

    Moreover have you heard any fatwa from any hindu organization against sare jehan se achchha unlike these taritorous hateful maulanas

    [Reply]

    singer Reply:

    you are true but the writer of “saare jahan se acchcha” did not instigate the people from other community which bankim chandra did. so dont compare those two!!

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    An interesting article…

    http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/nov/10/deoband-rally-was-only-a-show-of-strength.htm

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    More than the article, the reactions interested me..
    Quote:
    Yogi – there are N number of people in this world who have written against Islam and you are doing the same. You are wasting your time. Start something productive.

    With all the oppositions and hatered that we muslims receive in this modern world we are still the greatest and true faith on the face of the earth. If we debate on the authenticity of any religion other than Islam no one can last even for 10 minutes. Such are the non-Islamic faiths.
    .. Unquote
    Poor Yoginder Sikand. Possibly a bigger sympathiser to Muslims in India will be hard to find. And, look at what he gets for his troubles…. Tchhah!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Yogi Sikand is perfect example of Dhimmi..A man filled with inferiority comple with respect to erstwhile rulers MUSLIMS.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Rajeev,
    obviously even he was not good enough as was evident from the reaction posted :-)

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    “Root Cause” is not a theory, its simply means that we realize the reasons behind this “rage”, which is what terrorism is. It is not an attempt to justify the terror, but a way to understand it, because to solve a problem you have to understand why the problem exists in the first place. Its a perfectly rational thing to do. Trying to find solutions in 7th century books, is like trying to treat the symptom and not the disease.

    Sam Reply:

    If root cause and rage are justified…

    then this is justified also..

    Hindus as a religious group were oppressed by Islam and British.

    So Hindus are justified in causing terror and killing people in Saudi Arabia, Britain/London and any other islamic countries..

    is that right ?

    Sam Reply:

    Denmark to pay immigrants $20,000 to go home if they “can’t or won’t” assimilate

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/denmark-to-pay-immigrants-20000-to-go-home-if-they-cant-or-wont-assimilate.html

    Should India also try this to pay for Muslims to go to Pakistan/bangladesh if they want special privileges as Muslims in india.

    This should be done, to complete the unfinished business of Partition once for all..

    Muslims have a choice to live in an islamic society or secular one.

    Hindus do not have that choice.
    They are only forced to live as subjugated people in a secular society..

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hyderabd: Here another group of oppressed Muslims struggling to do good and to remove injustice, oppression and evil from the society -Of course we know the only way to end oppression is establish supermacy of Islam. So Darsgah Jehad-o-Shahadat (DJS)
    http://www.djsindia.org/index.htm
    Visit the site to see picture of small innocent and peaceful kids making peaceful demand that Religion of Peace be the CONSTITUTION of India

    Our Secular Heroes:
    Another oppressed gentleman fighting for peace, Mujeeb Ahmed jailed for gunning down Additional Superintendent of Police Krishna Prasad in 1992, and suspected of having procured an AK-47 rifle was granted remission of sentence by the State government for good conduct on the eve of Independence Day in 2004.

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    what a pleasant surprise. Truly the future of India is safe in these young hands.
    Why aren’t these guys more well known? Why don’t they come on prime time evening news? Why does Zia (or Yoginder Sikand) only travel to Deoband? Surely a trip to Hyderabad can be funded by HT?
    Our biased media does not highlight the great things that are being done by the soldiers of the Religion of Peace. I also noticed that the rabidly communal BJP has asked for a ban on the activities of DJS. True to character. Venkaiah Naidu should be arrested for fomenting trouble and causing damage to the cause of secularism.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    This is unbelievable. Sometimes I wonder whether our police/intelligence apparatus has the wherewithal to monitor all these. I am telling you that a new “Nadvadul Mujahuddin” is formed every day in God’s Own Country (I really believe one of these days a part of it will become No God but Allah’s Land – already some of these Mujahudins have started making noise that Malabar should be carved out as Muslim state; you know Malappuram was the first Muslim district in India; so the claim is ‘we know how to run a district now, and we are ready for a state” ). A new political party, SDPI, reincarnation of SIMI, got 3600 votes here in last weeks assembly by- election.

    Just before the election, SDPI had a fairly long procession, with troops in army fatigue, shouting “The road is long; but we have time”. I believe they had an “empowerment seminar; where they had a speaker from Saudi Arabia on Islamic Banking (I have not been able to verify this)

    Arabic colleges are opening up dime a dozen; with courses and advanced courses like Al Jumuria. My mother reads about these new unpronounceable terms in the newspaper and she is perplexed which country she is living. I tell her she lives in No God, but Allah’s land.

    Oh by the way Marxist Govt instituted a pension scheme for retired Arabic teachers in Madrasas. I am told Sanskrit teachers dont get it.

    Now that Marxists lost in the byelections of three assembly seats, it will be feast time for the believers.

    And by the way we dont do violent jihad any more; now it is Love Jihad!

    Bobby Reply:

    Sam,

    why don’t you at least read what I write, before commenting? I said very clearly that its NOT justified.

    Sam Reply:

    Will you justify Hindus causing Terror and killing people in Islamabad ? in retaliation for Mumbai pakistani terrorist rampage ??

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    I guess some rages are more ‘equal’ than others. I agree with you on Jinnah. He was a tortured soul too. Poor guy. We should hang his portrait in our Parliament. That he called for Direct Action Day was just a manifestation of his trauma that had been inflicted on him by the wily bania Gandhi and that hidden communal Hindu Patel. Please do mention any more blame that we are supposed to take, in case you missed some of them. Oh, well, maybe we are funding Taliban.

    Bobby Reply:

    “We should hang his portrait in our Parliament”

    well if we can hang savarkar’s potrait, then why not ?

    “Please do mention any more blame that we are supposed to take, in case you missed some of them. Oh, well, maybe we are funding Taliban.”

    Well several come to mind, but not having a plebiscite in Kashmir comes to mind straightaway. About funding the Taliban, well I do not know the facts, but its not so impossible as you make it out to be. For instance, the Congress governments have a history of siding with and creating extremists, be it the Salwa Judum, Bhindranwala, or the LTTE. So its not impossible , though its slightly improbable in this case , since that would piss off the Americans.

    Akash Reply:

    “So its not impossible , though its slightly improbable in this case ”
    Sigh!

    So, tomorrow if Kashmiri Pandits go on a rampage, I hope you will stand and defend them. I guess, by your logic, the rascals of RSS are justified in their actions. They are merely expressing the spontaneous outpouring of grief at the mauling received daily from time immemorial from an assortment of invaders. That was precisely the reason given by murderers in Gujarat, that they were so taken by the shock of Godhra incident that they indulged in wanton killing and mayhem.

    Btw what has LTTE to do with Bombay episode.

    I don’t agree with Savarkar portrait in our parliament.

    Akash Reply:

    So, after all, Kasab may be a RAW agent. Slightly probably, no?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Akash,

    It would help in our conversations, if you read a bit more.

    By Taliban, I assumed you meant the “pakistan taliban” which as you may have read, are fighting the Government of Pakistan. It was in this context that I thought you were even asking the question…but never mind.

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    So do you belong to that Pak-Afghan-taliban-are-different brigade. Even Pakistanis have given up believing that nonsense. It is a little hard to believe that our renowned Indian agents can distinguish between the two flavors of Taliban. That’s quite a compliment to our RAW agents. I would be mightily pleased if they had such capability. hmmm..Let me think. Not probable. Not at all.
    If only the US would fire a few of those hellfire missiles in Muridke, my prayers would be answered.

    Bobby Reply:

    “So do you belong to that Pak-Afghan-taliban-are-different brigade. Even Pakistanis have given up believing that nonsense. It is a little hard to believe that our renowned Indian agents can distinguish between the two flavors of Taliban”

    Akash, I am not an expert on these issues. But yes i do agree with you thats its unlikely, which incidentally is what I had said. What I meant was that RAW like other international intelligence agencies, is very likely involved in terror acts in some way or the other. Thats not a surprise. But in this particular case, its unlikely, because it would be against its own self-interest, enraging the US being one of them.

    Akash Reply:

    It’s more likely an urban myth. We could hardly get that ******* Dawood if our intelligence agencies were that good. And, that Hafeez is getting fatter. Why doesn’t Pakistan bring the proof that it says it has. Witness Rehman Malik making hyperbolic assertions that would tax even the most delusional. I personally believe that we should start providing ‘moral’ support to the Balochi people. They seem to be nice folks.

    Oh, and you forgot Mossad. Maybe they are to blame.

    Bobby Reply:

    well you never know, we maybe giving more than “moral support” to them.

    Akash Reply:

    I hope so, Bobby. We can live peacefully with Sindh and Balochistan while the other nuts can fight among themselves. I wonder why some loons are so enamored with idea of a united and strong Pakistan. A united Pakistan is only capable of creating headaches for everyone around.

    Bobby Reply:

    “We can live peacefully with Sindh and Balochistan while the other nuts can fight among themselves.”

    Well I hope you do realize, that you are precisely using the same logic that the pakistanis would have used when they decided to support the khalistanis, and the kashmiri militants?

    I also think that you should not hope its true, because invariably when these militant groups are armed, they use it on civilians. innocents. Its not going to be that they will simply target the army-No, they will bomb places and kill innocent pakistani civilains. I hope that’s not something you would support, given that we live in a country who has seen the death of innocents at the hands of militants.

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Boby/Mr Akash

    Boby ..”tae same logic Pakistanis would have used to support Kashmiri militants”..

    Kashmir did not have militants till late 1980s when Mrs Bhutto through her ISI chief Hamid Gul decided to deploy ISI to create/train terrorists. Mrs Bhutto knew that Hamid Gul, an ultra religious Muslim, will go 300% on this task, because for him, this was God’s will.

    So, they created, and then supported

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    The Book is the problem; more specifically the group that does the literal interpretation. The compulsory religious education at a young impressionable age, taught by doctrinated illiterate Mullahs reinforce the notions of infidels/believers, division of the world into dar al Harb and Dar il slam, woman less than man etc. in islam, unlike other belief systems such as Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, “all are not God’s children; only Muslims are God’s children”. Mohamed said “the sword is the key to heaven” while Jesus said “he who lives by the sword shall perish by sword”. Religious Hindus end their prayers with Lloka samastha sukhino Bhavandu, Om Shanti, Shant, Shanti”.

    The deep thread of hatred of non-believers and other stuff taught at an impressionable age through the compulsory religious education stays with many people waiting for a little trigger. There is nos epaartion of church and state, no individual responsibilities, no democracy. A Zacharia Massawi, or a Jose Padilla, or the Shoe Bomber would not have been a terrorist, had they converted to Budhism or Hinduism. Sabel Khan and his brother, the two Banaglore brothers would have become an excellent Aeronautical Enginner and a Doctor instead of becoming Glasgow airport bombers, were they born as Hindsu or Christians.

    Quran ad Sunna, frozen in the 7th century, a nd Sharia frozen in the 11th ecntury are the centers of Jihadi inspiration. Islam did not go through a reformation, separating Church and State. Kamal Pasha forcefully sepaarted Islam in Turkey away from government and its institutions after the, even todaty, after 75 years, is disdained by the “career” Muslims. So also, Akbar, who tried reconciliation and tried to separate religion from govt. (Pakistani text books does not even cover Akbar)

    Controlling and preventing Islamic terrorism requires multiples levels of focused activities. First
    and foremost, the totalitarian Miuslim terrorists should be hunted down and killed; and a well coordinated monitoring a d intelligenec gathering progarm s hould be in palce. Second, no government sshould provide any special treatment to Muslims (and other segments). Special treatments further separatist tendencies; it is a step towards creating their own exclusive place, and then their own land ( a couple of Mujahuddin groups has already called for Malabar region of kerala to be declared an Islamist State; there also has been calls for West Benagl, Assam to be given to Bengla Desh). Third, Mullahs preaching violence, whether in Muslim countries or not, should be put behind bars. Al Alwicki, who publicly congratulated the Muslim major for killing 13 soldiers of US army, is walking scots free as a hero in Yemen.n. Fourth, moderate Muslims should use all their clout and should be in the front denouncing acts of terrorism. Deobandis took four years after 9/11 to formally declare a Fatwa against Islamic terrorism; and that too was more concrened about arresting imnocent Muslims rather than terrorism itself.

    The most important change I will recommend is to have the Muslim children to study religuious stuff (which is ammust for them!) after 12th grade,a nd not k-12. And, preferably clsose down all current Madrasas except the ones where they just teach normal school curriculam.. and institutions like Darul uloom should be monitored.

    Moderate Muslims and non-Muslims have to work relentlessly to remove this scrouge.

    Nadeem Patracha has addressed the same thing in an op ed article, “A NAtion of Sleep Walkers ” in the Dawn newspaper, dated November 12th (or 11th).

    Ashish Reply:

    @singer
    Quote:
    Similar sentiments were expressed by him about three months before his death. Sayyid Nazir Niazi in his book Iqbal Ke Huzur, has stated that the future of the Indian Muslims was being discussed and a tenor of pessimism was visible from what his friends said. At this Allama Iqbal observed:

    There is only one way out. Muslim should strengthen Jinnah’s hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence.
    … Unquote
    For full text of the article, read http://www.allamaiqbal.com/person/movement/move_main.htm
    Read the operative sentence: “united front against both the Hindus and the English”.
    A greatly magnanimous Indian polity chooses to ignore such rabidly communal views from one of the spiritual drivers of the two nation theory and includes his poem as one of two national songs of India; even the RSS accepts this song as a patriotic song.
    I will compare “these two” cases and guess who comes off worse?

    Jaya Reply:

    ” Vande Matram” is National song and “Jan Gan Man” is national Anthem. their is a distinction!!!!

    Hindu’s have never descriminated against “Saare Jahan Se achha”. We all sing this song irrespective of who worte it…

    My humble request to Khan sahab to remove all this anti-hindu propoganda from his heart. We are very peaceful people.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Khan Sahab,
    1. Whatever gave you the idea that Urdu is a language of the Muslims alone? Just because the script is Arabic?
    2. Secondly, whoever gave you the idea that Hindus are against singing Sare Jahan Se Achchha? Can you point me to any Hindu organization of any repute that has raised such a demand?

    Khan Sahab, if you are an Indian, we expect you to know the difference between a National Song, which is Vande Mataram (and Saare Jahan se Achchha, for that matter ) and National Anthem, which is Jana Gana Mana. Of course, you are under no obligation to either sing the Vande Mataram or be patriotic. This is the land of the free. And, inspite of the periodic abuse from people of your ilk, it will remain so.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    This is RSS on the net (my first visit on the site :-) )
    This is what RSS says about songs:
    http://rssonnet.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=78

    Geetganga PDF Print E-mail
    Written by Administrator
    Sunday, 05 October 2008

    The reason why we have not included the section of Sangh geet or patriotic songs is that some excellent work has been done on this subject by this site. You can search the songs collection in various ways, listen to the selected song, or download it. All these features are vary user friendly. You can create your custom play list on the site also. And with the facility for the users to upload there collcetion of songs, apropriate to the subject and with previous permission of website of course, this site is growing by leaps and bounds, in number of users, and the songs available. At present there are songs available in 14 Bharatiya languages

    VISIT

    http://www.geetganga.org
    BTW, the second song on the list of patriotic songs is Saare Jahan Se acchha

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Zia,
    After a long time, finally.. I see a post I have no large quarrels with :-)
    Only a small quibble; the much hyped anti-terror fatwa is, let’s face it, more hype than anything else. Where does it condemn terrorism?
    And, whether or not Quran asks Muslims to acquire education or not is immaterial; it is important to get education, period. Whether you are a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jain is not germane to the issue.

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Well I have seldom been unhappy about we not agreeing. The point is always about taking the discussions forward, but in a manner that is not disrespectful, abusive or offensive to any of the stakeholders. I did not mean to say Muslims should be educated only because the Quran says so. The Quran too emphasises education. All the more reason to be educated. tks

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    A good start; a few more posts like that and more introspection.. less of all Muslim problems are traced to the intolerant Hindu majority.. and who knows..

    I confess I am happier when I can disagree; but when you at last turn the spotlight on to the right area; I would like to encourage the thought. Minor quibbles aside, go Zia!

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Zia,
    Would God be annoyed if I did something that grazed his/her omnipotence as regards to minor semantic differences. What infantile nit-picking!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Zia,
    Let’s not get carried away. We all know why JUH was against Partition. You have cleverly skirted that issue. And, as for their fatwa against terrorism, you would have done well to quote the rest of the Fatwa. Such cherry-picking is unfortunate.

  • Anil Kumar

    Even that fatwa againt terrorism came after decade of islamic jihadi terrorism in India.. Even then it was peppered with how muslim should not be held responisble for what happens.. Muslim should not be vicitmized by police.. basically it was an attempt to throw police off the train of jihadi criminals..

    there was no honesty no comitment in that fatwa. honest fatwa should have come the day forst jihadi blew people in India..

    These people keep showing their true color ..

    I say what is the brouhaha over vande matram .. we consider it worship you can go ahead consider it praise.. it’s all about sentiments and intentions.. but these mullahs know that they need to keep these issues alive in case they get the numbers right for another vivisection of mIndia they can invoke these issues again

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    There is a lesson to be learnt from this, as we confront the issue of Vande Mataram. Since intent is so critical to our faith, my view is, if a Muslim sings our national song without the intent of worship but simply with the zeal of patriotism, it will not constitute a breach of the Islamic creed.

    You nailed it there Zia..

    In any religion it’s always about intention not the words…… Years of chanting sitaram brings nothing to many and some get nirvana with a single chant with right intention..

    I believe these mullahs do this nautanki just to make their presence felt and hope to invoke if and when they need these issues for another vivisection of india..

    Mind you when Jinnha gave call for division his support amongst indian muslism was complete .. not even single muslim constituency could congress win.. these same idiots who voted for pakistan for one or another reaosn could not move to pakistan are now raising their ugly head and sick mind.. non-muslims have given them benfit of doubt despite fully knowing they voted without any exception for pakistan.. After all election results don;t lie

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    Zia,
    The point you made about “niyat”is a good one. I will be meeting maulana kalbe sadiq shortly on some issue. I would like to have his take on singing vande mataram without niyat to worship.

    [Reply]

  • Shiuli Mukherji

    Thanks Zia for your insight, now the controversy for the benefit of people, preachers and fanatics:

    Jan Gan Mann was chosen as the National Anthem of independent India. Vande Mataram was rejected on the grounds that Muslims opposed idol worship felt offended by its depiction of the nation as “Mother Durga”—a Hindu goddess. Muslims also felt that its origin as part of Anandmath, a novel they felt had an anti-muslim message. Therefore in 1937 the Indian National Congress discussed at length the status of the song. It was pointed out then that though the first two stanzas began with an unexceptionable evocation of the beauty of the motherland, in later stanzas there are references where the motherland is likened to the Hindu goddess Durga. Therefore, the Congress decided to adopt only the first two stanzas as the national song. To this day the national songs of India consists of only these first two stanzas of Vande Mataram, along with the national anthem Jana gan mana and Saare Jahan Se accha.
    Zia, as you have pointed that education does not always show the straight road, the Jamat uses this cause to seek attention but what’s the agenda? The status which requires real up-liftmen, has that been acknowledged?

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    I think this is being given a bit too much importance than it deserves. Some organizations may have some reservations about some issues, singing of songs included. Whats the big deal?

    I am a bit surprised that not much discussion happens on much of the views the RSS holds. Recently in an interview to a well read magazine, Mohan Bhagwat has reiterated, what has been the RSS nutty “vision” – that is “Akhand Bharat”, that is a land including Pakistan and Afghanistan, which he believed were “transient states”)

    Now given that he heads the organization which controls the BJP, and given the fact that the BJP has been a major political organziation, which has in the past and could in the future come to power, this is a very serious and disturbing piece of news. When one major political organization hold such lunatic views, is peace with neighbours ever possible?

    In the same interview he goes on to say, that Pakistani state harbours “anti-India feelings”, obviously without realizing the irony!

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby: the truth full

    Hope you understand the differrence between issuing decree and somebody airing his personal opinion about what his nation should be ?

    These mullahs are preaching isolationism ….this will breed separatism over period of time.

    BTW bhagwat is not india’s defence minister or foreign minister or parliamentarian. he is just head of a cultural organization.

    The country needs to be carefull of people like you than Bhagwat.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Bobby

    That is lunatic. Pakistan started four wars with us. The fourth one when the Pakistani PM was in Washington DC conveying to US President about Pakistan loving peace. BEngla Desh dumped illegal aliens into India.

    All (or most of these) happened not under BJP when BJP initiated any of their lunatic program.

    Many Muslims are separatist, isolationist and really do not care about India. For that matter they may not care for any other destination other than the land of 72 virgins.

    Whatever may be our political view; the fact is that the worldwide Islamic JEhadism is a major threat for India and the world than the puny RSS threat, if at all there is one.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Yeah from Zia’s standard this piece was pretty reasoned.. Yes he gives little too much credit to that vacuuous Fatwa against terorrism which came after a decade of jihadi lead mayhem and that too was peperred with hwo muslims should not be discirminated by police.. I always wonder who shoudl police invetigiate if 99.999999999999999999999% cases bombers are muslim it’s btu obvious muslims will be scrutinized more..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    discussing Mohan Bhagwat’s Akhand Bharat and its purported impact on sound neighbourly relations on a blog dedicated to Muslims and Islam in an Indian context .. trust you to make the connection.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Ashish,

    When I said “not much discussion happens on the RSS views”, I meant in the papers and tv channels, not on this blog.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Bobby you do talk like Pakistani.Ppakistani too claim as long as India stops weeping about its divison of their country and stops talkign about akhand bharat and doesn’t start doing bhangra over partitiopn of their country we pakistanis will feel India has evil desings on us.

    UI asked several pakistan the day they start celebrating creation of bangaldesh as soem kind of positive development we too will obllige.. this shuts all of them.

    Bottomline no country can celebrate its partition they will always reminisce about the one geographical entity. It doesn’t mean India is goign to attack pakistan.. BJP was in power and BJP’s PM Vajpayee accepted existance of Pakistan from Minar-e_pakistan no congress or any other Pm has shown this level of megalomania..

    Yet clowns like you keep obfuscating the issue..

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Yeah Mohan bhagwat should be hanged for reminiscing about the akhand bharat… I am pretty sure if tomorrow another vivisection happems clowns like you will embrace that too in a jiffy and start working for another division..
    Too bad Mohan bhagwat nto only rues abotu that past division btu is also trying his level best so that another division doesn’t take place..

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    @ Zia

    Atleast somehwere you have shown some reason and truthfullness.

    Kudos .

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    @ Bobby

    What if tommorow muslims claim that killing of kafirs is in their faith (as prescribed by Quran ) and thus they should be allowed to kill as many as kafirs so that they can go to jannat.

    What is your view about such faith ?

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Actually you should read the history about USA Ottoma empire relations. particulalry treat ot Tripoli.

    When muslim empire of ottoma was powerful what you have painted as what if was actually in operation.

    When Thomas jefferson and Adams were talking to representative of Pasha of Tripoli today’s Libiya about safety of their cargo ships passing through that region. Actually they were negotiating extorition amount so that their ship could be left alone from plunderign and looting on hands of pirates of Tripoli of Pasha. After negotiation was over Jafferson asked under what authority they actually are looting their ships. Mind you these were nto indepepdendet pirate these were pirates representing Ottomona empire thought pasha of tripoli.

    The answer which was given to Jafferson baffled him.
    Ottomon representative claimed that sicne USA has not accepted ISla and since it’s christian country so Quranically they have right to loot and plunder them unless they pay Jazya extortion. Jafferson claimed they were secular nation in fact that treaty document is hallmark of secular constitution of USA. Americans knew that day they were dealing with beasts..

    USa started raising their navy and within 15 years they vanquished that Tripol Pasha.. Today muslims cry how america is controlling everrything and how their presence is illegal in arba world.

    They at least are giving some explanation when muslims were powerful anyone and everyone was fair target of loot and oplunder and they proud of it and used to thump their quran for endorsment of their actions..

    Give me a secular superpower over religious nut of ottomna empire anyday..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @sanjeev
    The Golden Rule — Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you – the final sermon of Mohammad

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Hurt noone story should end there.. When you try not to hurt someoen because they too might hurt you alows you to hurt others if and when you are powerful enough to eliminate others..

    this is why in any muslim majority society blashpehmy is crime but muslim themselves routinely preach how everyone else is goign to hell how their god is false god.. this is open blashphemy towards other religions which they practice but noone can question their prophets shenanigans

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Personally I do not have any issue about discussing the shenanigans of any prophet. MAkes life so much more interesting don’t you say.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Hurt no one, only applies to Muslims.

    This rule is not valid for Kaffirs, as per some muslim scholars.

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Syed bhai I am not talking about you in particualr I am talkign about practice in general..
    FACT: Routinely in pakistan non-muslim get killed for blashphemy . And if you watch pakistani channles kafir bashing is so common nobody cares about respecting others religion.. it;s nto just pakistan specific it;s everywhere . i mean how can a religion which advocates
    (1) everyone else is gopign to hell
    (2) everyone else;s god is false god
    (3) jews are progeny of pigs and are cursed people

    can demand respect for their ideology from other people..

    At the peak of Khilfata Mohd Ali said as far as he is concerned evena rapist murderer muslim is betetr than Gandhi.. This level of nonsense emanating from certian religion or book should not be askign for respect from others..
    Honestly I don;t respect islam whatsoever but I don;t go around rubbign it in muslim’s face.. I have this simple rule just check the charcetr of prophets and if at least them themselves come of as good then I will give a second look ot their preachings.

    I look at buddha I find nothing deplorable I look at jesus I fidn nothgin deplorable but when I look at muhd I find so much nonsense there.. For instance at the eve of Khyber war he beds a girl whose hisband and all family was killed hardly few hours ago by muhd and his army. muslim call it concensual marriage and sex I am not buying that .. no self respectign woman can jump into bed with thenkiller of her husband within hours of the killing.. There are many indefnsible acts like these which i fidn hard to fathom coming from a prophet..

    Butchering of 900 banu quraiza is another such incident

  • Anil Kumar

    Muslims got to understand one thing, hindus are wary of anypreferential treatment based on religion for some very sound and credible reasons
    (1) Pakistan movement started with a harmless separate muslim majoriyt bengal
    (2) then a separate electorate

    then there is small problem of history world over where significant muslim minoryt invaribaly always takes to sepratism. This number varis from country to country depending on how tolerant the majority population are.
    For instance in Thailand merely 5% muslim number is enough for the call of seprartism because majority buddhist are very tolerant.
    Fact is there doesn’t exist any signifcant muslim minoroty which is not busy with demand of separate muslims lala land carved out of the parent country. There doesn;t exist any muslim majority country where minoroty at oen or another extent are being subjected to shariah dictates. Apostacy becomes punsihbale by death but conversion to the islam becomes welcome.

    In India itself in muslim majoroity district like Kishenganj in Bihar a hindu can;t cremate his/her dead.. they have to go ouot to perform this religious duty..

    Just because media doesn;t show this dark side doesn;t mean it doesn;t exist in india even today.

    Only muslim majority state has purged its kashmir valley from hindu minority. We never hear chest beating from Shabana azmi or Aamir Khan over these..

    So if we hindus fear this eventuality and are wary of this religious sanction given to muslim in particualr then we have have very sound reason.

    As I have mentioned all those muslism who stayed behidn in india in 1947 due to logistical reason had voted with gusto for pakistan in 1946 election not even single muslim seat went to congress.. Hindu being tolerant still gave equal rights to those people………

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Anil,

    How many years have you spent among the nuts? I mean the chadiwallahs.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Ad hominem is the hallmark of clueless. I will leave you to decide what you actually are..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    This is standard Bobby way of evading the tough question.

    The fact is majority close to 96% of undivided India supported Pakistan is being pushed under the muslim hypocrisy carpet.

    What have muslims done for India as a community to win hindu confidence after partition?
    A big ZERO..This is the real problem.

    The muslims as a community are always victims whether they are in minority (US, France, UK, Germany, India etc.) or Majority (Pakistan, Afghanistan etc.)

    This victimhood is nothing but a disguise to dominate over other under any circumstances.

    This opposition to Vande Matram is just an excuse to firm their faith (Sahida). It is very important for a muslim to dis-respect other faiths if he/she wants to become good muslim.

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Bobby would not have to take my word just check the election results. Yeah i know putting head under the sand is easier than facing the truth but too bad I am nto wired that way mr Bobby.

    Just in election of 1936 Muslim league could nto win many seats even in muslim constituency and the same muslim league wiped the slate in 1946. Only difference in those two elections was that in 1936 Mleague had not given open call of Pakistan’s formation whereas in 1946 they had given that call.

    Any sane person can see why that happened but some have this habit of putting head into sand..

    even then india accorded every right to these people who worked for division of India. But that is not enough they need preferential treatment..
    I say thanks but no thanks, you have to live like an equal citizen..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim First, Pakistanis second.

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/11/16/091116fa_fact_hersh?currentPage=all

    Officials and journalists said that soldiers and middle-level officers were increasingly attracted to the preaching of Zaid Hamid, who joined the mujahideen and fought for nine years in Afghanistan. On CDs and on television, Hamid exhorts soldiers to think of themselves as Muslims first and Pakistanis second. He claims that terrorist attacks in Mumbai last year were staged by India and Western Zionists, aided by the Mossad. Another proselytizer, Dr. Israr Ahmed, writes a column in the Urdu press in which he depicts the Holocaust as “divine punishment,” and advocates the extermination of the Jews. He, too, is said to be popular with the officer corps.

    A senior Obama Administration official brought up Hizb ut-Tahrir, a Sunni organization whose goal is to establish the Caliphate. “They’ve penetrated the Pakistani military and now have cells in the Army,” he said. (The Pakistan Army denies this.) In one case, according to the official, Hizb ut-Tahrir had recruited members of a junior officer group, from the most élite Pakistani military academy, who had been sent to England for additional training.

    “Where do these guys get socialized and exposed to Islamic evangelism and the fundamentalism narrative?” the Obama Administration official asked. “In services every Friday for Army officers, and at corps and unit meetings where they are addressed by senior commanders and clerics.” ♦

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Anil@Rajeev@Sam@Syed@Singh@Bobby

    Many of the Deobandis and Jamaitis are terrorists waiting to explode, either as suicide bombers or as their leaders. The founder of Jamaiit is Abdul Maududi, who is the spiritual Guru of almost all the Islamists (Muslim terrorists). DarulUloom was (and I believe still is) the “Harvard” teaching “theo democracy” which the terrorists in Pakistan are trying to implement. as we speak.

    So, 20000 plus Mullahs with unkempt beards and white skiullcaps (no women there!) assemble at Deoband and assert their 1) anti Pakistan credentials 2) opposition to terrorism (hahaha) and 3) their staunch stand against the partition (and for patriotism).. Oh, by the way a fatwa against Vande Mataram too.

    They believe all these will maintain their mantle of Indian Muslim leadership and preempt anybody (like Syed) who will openly challenge the Mullahs’ hegemony.

    A small percentage of the Indian Muslims are part of the dangerous Islamist movement happening worldwide; let there be no doubt about that. While the “active terrorists” may be quite few; a majority of Muslims are on the “Islamist” continuum, with strong convictions on Umma; and believers in the manichean divide between Daar al Islam and Dar al Harb; believer/non-believer and their respective countries. The clerics have done a good job of inculcating these at a young age, and these are hard wired, with a tribalism not found in any other sects, including the so aclled Sangh Parivar.. I strongly believe this unquestioning nature has impeded their creativity and learning, and made them regressive, even when they achieve financial security. Evidence abound,;in the paucity of creative works published by Muslims in India or elsewhere.

    And the targedy of this “thought outsourcing” to Mullas without the ability of individual analysis and synthesis is the creation of killers like Major Hasan of the US Army. For him, as he had been taught from an early age, Islam was number one,and his country number two. He was about to be dispatched to Afghanistan; he did not want to fight his “brothers” (believers); he rather kill himself and along with kill 13 others who were getting processed to be dispatched. His “religion” did not stand in the way of getting a free undergraduate and medical education; but clearly stood in the way of the basic mission of an army!

    It does not stop there. “It is a gift that goes on giving”. Anwar Al Awlaki, a Maudidi (jamait) follower, who was the Imam in Hasan’s hometown mosque (which happens to be the same mosque where two of the 9/11 terrorists atteneded) declared “Nidal Hasan is a hero. He is a man of conscience who could not bear living the contardictions being a Muslim and serving in an army fighting against HIS OWN (caps mine) people. American Muslims who condemned the Fort Hood attack are hypocrites who have committed treason against the religion” . Awlaki is now a firebrand Imam in Yemen, with a worldwide following of believers.

    Figure it out. Will a segment of our Muslim soldiers have an issue if the civilian authorities decide on a war against Pakistan or Saudi Arabia? Who can “answer” their questiosns on fighting fellow Muslims if the country decides on a war? As long as this issue (Islam first or country first ?) is relevant for a substantial segment, why do they even complain about “proportional” representation in the army? They want to keep their beard while in service; but will they fight? If the country has a proprortional Muslim representation in the army, wouldnt that be suicidal for the country (unless there is a litmus test as a part of the recruiting)? Wouldnt it be like giving the key of the blood bank to Dracula?

    Who will bell the cat? So that, progressive leaders – not Mullas- can take the leadership and steer the believers to be productive contributors in a globalizing world.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    I want to clarify that the Islamist purification “and takeover” movement is basically a Sunni movement; Shia miovements so far has been nationalistic and liberational. I will not put Osama Laden and Ali Sistani (or Nasrullah) on the same league.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Can some one post the full text of those fatwas ?

    We need to read what those fatwas really say..

    [Reply]

  • Shiuli Mukherji

    Wow! This is a lesson in crooked and straight thinking in communication.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims are not theologically ready for a secular state.

    until they religiously accept a secular state or even a nation state, a nation state should not spend money on exclusive muslim causes or provide them opportunities in sensitive positions..

    (unfortunately people are afraid of being blamed as bigots, and will suffer those consequences)..

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    Fine line between right and rights.

    Though I am not a student of jurisprudence, I making an attempt to understand the theology and practice in Faith within legal bindings. I would be sharing a similar case of questionable diktat taking shape in Malaysia. For the records Malaysia is a democracy with Islamic roots.

    Dr Mohd Asri Zainul Abidin a former mufti ( the highest Islamic religious official of a state) in Malaysia got arrested by officials of Selangore (another state) Islamic Religious Department (JAIS).
    Because though being a Ulama he was preaching Islam in a house located in a different state than the one assigned to him. He did not have a tauliah (written permission or a permit, ) to do so.
    Point to be noted that Asri is a modernist. His ideas are more liberal and being a progressive Muslim leader, he asks his followers to think.

    In short he is a Qadiani. The problem, is that main stream Muslims do not like to be referred to as followers of the Ahmadiyya sect founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani who claimed he was appointed by God to be a prophet in1882. Compared to Wahhabi ideas. Mohd Abdul Wahhab, the 18th century reformer. Who preached a return to the pure and original teachings of Prophet Muhammad. Though Wahhabi ideas of purity in Islam are extreme and radical, most of the Middle east people are followers of these teachings. So the fight is becoming Traditionalists V/S modernists.
    Since the colonial times till now the traditionalists had always been supported by the govt or rather they got the govt to support them.

    Now the question in both countries: One which is just democratic and the other which is a secualr democratic: Will it be easier for the govt to continue to support the traditionalists or take the risk by abandoning them for the spirited progressive views who advocate free speech and ask for not only religious education but former education to gain livelihood?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Hi All,
    Quoting from an article in Chowk dated 2003.
    Quote..
    The aims and objects of JUH are laid down in its 10-point programme adopted in 1919, the year of its formation and amended in 1939, are as under:

    * To guide the followers of Islam in political and non-political matters from a religious point of view;

    * To defend on Shariat grounds, Islam, centres of Islam (holy places of Islam and the seat of Khilafat), Islamic rituals and customs, and Islamic nationalism against all odds injurious to them;

    * To establish and protect the general religious and national rights of Muslims;

    * To organise the Ulama on a common platform;

    * To organise the Muslim community and to launch a programme for its moral and social reform;

    * To establish good and friendly relations with the non-Muslims of the country to the extent permitted by the Shariat-I-Islamiyah;

    * To fight for the freedom of the country and religion according to the Shariat objectives;

    * To establish Shariat courts to meet the religious need of the community;

    * To propagate Islam in India by way of missionary activities in India, and foreign land

    * To maintain and strengthen the bond of unity and fraternal relations (as ordained by Islam) with Muslims of other countries.
    …. Unquote
    So, this is the version of nationalism that is and was the hallmark of the JUH.
    Further, quoting from the same article:
    Quote:
    Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madani (1879-1957), Principal of Dar-ul-Ulum, Deoband and the chief spokesman of JUH in the turbulent years preceding partition of India was also known as a great ’Nationalist’ Muslim. But one may be amused to judge his donned ’Nationalist’ image when he remarked in his presidential address:

    “If Dara (Shikoh) had triumphed, Muslims would have stayed in India but not Islam. Since Aurangzeb triumphed, both Muslims and Islam were here to stay” (Muslim Politics in India – Hamid Dalwai, 1969, page 71). “According to Maulana, the faith Dara followed was not genuine Islam because Dara wanted to tolerate Hindus. He did not insist on the rule of the Shariat. From the above views of Maulana it should be clear what kind of Islam a majority of “Nationalist Muslims’ subscribed to and what in the final analysis, their great goals were” (ibid). For Madani “all non-Muslims are the enemies of Islam and Muslims” ( Muslim Nationhood in India – Safia Amir, 2000, page 179).
    … Unquote

    I rest my case.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ashish and all:

    Emperor Akbar is also lumped intto the camp of Dara, even worse, an “infidel”, by JU.

    Appeasing JUH , and through that Muslims it represents, was the reason for the last congress UPA govt not to celebrate Akbar’s 400th death anniversary .

    I am told that Pakistani text books portray Akbar as the one who brought the decline of the Moghuls because he was not Muslim enough; and worse, he respected Kauufrs. They glorify Shiikh Ahmad Sirhandi who rallied against the pluralism of Akbar, and took Muslims back to their religion which did not need any correction.

    Sheikh Ahmad Sirhandi accused Akbar of being an infidel.

    Akbar kept Ulema under his firm control. He rejected all forms of orthodoxy; and was a firm believer in and practitioner o religious reconciliations. No wonder why JUH would reject him!

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Gopi

    Sheikh Ahmad grabbed the epithet of Majaddid Alf Sani (renewer of the second millinium). He opposed all of Akbar’s policies; his “renewal” was convincing why renewal is not needed; for him tajdeed was revitalization instead of modernization; and reform meant going back to the original inspiration (of the Prophet’s days ).

    Pakistan may be regretting some of these early decisions that cultivated the Sunni orthodoxy which took it to the slippery slope of state failure.

    Retrospectively, what Akbar started could have been the “reformation” (and that too in an Indian non-violence way – btw he was a vegetarian too) Islam wanted badly – removing “religion” from administration/state, coexistence, civil laws etc.

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    @Ashish,
    Well I am not even going to try & defend the case as it does not relate to me. Check this:

    http://sify.com/news/After-meeting-ex-RSS-chief-Shia-cleric-approves-039-Vande-Mataram-039-news-Features-jljpihfbdfh.html

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    As we have said many times on this blog (to take liberties with Milton’s ode to Shakespeare)
    Dear Syed, others abide our criticism, thou art free :-)

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    facetiousness aside, this is very welcome. Pragmatism should be the order of the day. Vande Mataram is not the biggest issue facing the nation. To make this into a life and death issue serves no one’s purpose.
    However, I read the full story; the last line in the story (Sudarshan’s comments on The Prophet Muhammad will create some very “interesting reactions” to say the least.

    @Ankush Singla,
    It is not true that prominent Muslims do not make public statements regarding Vande Mataram. Javed Akhtar, Khurshid Alam, Arif Md Khan and now the top most Shia Clerics.. they do. But, how often can they say the same thing? Especially when their voice gets buried among the strident Deobandis claiming (probably not without reason) to represent the Muslim masses.
    If I was in their position, I would say it once and maybe twice and the next time.. I will say “eff it maan, write what you want, I don’t care any which way. Because, you will anyway print my reaction, if you do as a side note to the larger story about the Deobandis running amok”.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.zalgnis.blogspot.com Ankush Singla

    Hi Zia,

    As u said, singing Vande Mataram or Jana Gana Mana is not the ultimate test of Patriotism. I wonder how many of the “patriots” will actually know the complete work and meaning of our national song.

    But the problem here is no that. Problem here is, that this fatwa seems to be a mischievous act to fire confusion and unnecessary debate. Problem here is that after this was done, very few people from politics or from Islam religion came out against it (PPl like Salman Khurshid & you being exceptions). I know each Muslim is not a religious zealot but ppl like you have to come forward to reduce the differences between the two communities. Because when we speak against it, it can very easily be labeled as a Hindu speaking against Islamic values. Pls tell me why this does not happen?

    Regards
    Ankush

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    And see what Kalbe Sadiq has said on 27.9.2009

    http://newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=1842

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Does he have a FB page? I am already his fan!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have always maintained that Indian Shia are very peaceful and tolerant. That is the exact reason one has not seen major riots in Lucknow, city dominated by Shias. Even during Babri riots, lucknow was far more peaceful than Kanpur.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Now why are such speeches not publicized, but Vande MAtaram becomes a big issue?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Syed, I sent a rather lengthy response to the same question you asked in the discussions on “Don’t take Muslims too seriously”. I still stand by it.
    I am actually very irritated (like Kalbe Sadiq) with this senseless preoccupation with non-issues in our country. Something that was settled in 1937, is periodically dusted off and presented as a matter of grave importance.
    Long back Vivekananda ridiculed the Hindu orthodoxy thus: “Religion is not in your temples, it is not in your gods, religion is not even within you. It is only present in your kitchens”. He was referring to the custom prevalent those days of not letting a lower caste (or a Muslim!) enter the kitchen in a high caste household for fear they would “pollute” and cause the householder to become (and I have no translation for this) “dharma-bhrashta” -fallen from the path of religion??
    Vivekananda said this in late 1890’s. It took years for the society to heed his message and adjust; even now, not fully.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I do not think people are pre-occupied with this in the first place. Some jokers called a fatwa, some other jokers made idiotic statements like “those who do not want to sing this song, leave India”. End of story. Good tamasha.

    In my opinion, the second category of jokers are more nutty that the first.

    So one more item is added in the list of other tests of patriotism-

    (1) keeping Indian Names (2) supporting the “men in blue” (3) sing vandemataram.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    There is a this really slimy definition of patriotism that some people subscribe to ……….it never shows up in anything they do or say – but they still want people to assume that they are patriotic.

    I do believe that everything else being the same, choosing a name like ‘badrinath’ makes the same individual more ‘Indian’ compared to when he chooses to be called ‘Bobby’.

    Your cultural affiliation is reflected in your language – ‘Wazzup’ doesnt sound Indian, ‘Kya haal hai’ does, doesnt it ??

    If you celebrate a Pakistan victory only when it defeats India, it tells me something and this something is different compared to if you celebrate a Pakistan victory everytime it wins against any other country. Now, you can call me communal if you like !

    Bobby Reply:

    “There is a this really slimy definition of patriotism that some people subscribe to ……….it never shows up in anything they do or say – but they still want people to assume that they are patriotic.”

    Well I can talk of myself, I dont give a damn whether people think I am patriotic or not. Most of the time , what they mean by patriotic is standing behind the Indian state, not the Indian people.

    For instance, I think there should be a referendum in Kashmir, and the people should be allowed to vote whether they want to stay in India or not. Now that is not the position of the Indian state. So what does that make me? patriotic? or unpatriotic? In my opinion it makes me very patriotic, because I care about what Kashmiri (Indians) want.

    And we can go on…..

    Languages, religion and even culture are things which can be adopted and they do change from time to time. For instance, I think its very likely, given current evidence that Sanskrit itself has its origin in central Asia, brought to India by Aryans. Same goes for religion, including the Vedas of the Hindu religon.

    A nation is a political unit. A group of people who live in a society, abiding by some rules, which are agreed to by all people in that society. Nothing more is needed.

    “If you celebrate a Pakistan victory only when it defeats India”

    what does it even mean? eleven people defeat another eleven people. neither of whom you know personally. So why give it any more importance than it deserves? Why make it an issue of patriotism?

    I think these are all indoctrinating techniques to make money. They need a fan following– a base of supporters (to make profit), who will dutifully watch every match, so that there are enough people to buy tickets, and watch on tv, which also ensures that there are enough people to buy what the corporations are advertising on those channels….. They are just using you.

    K Reply:

    “Well I can talk of myself, I dont give a damn whether people think I am patriotic or not. Most of the time , what they mean by patriotic is standing behind the Indian state, not the Indian people. ”
    Indian state is made up of Indian people, elected by Indian people, run by Indian people. What are you talking about, buddy ?

    “For instance, I think there should be a referendum in Kashmir, and the people should be allowed to vote whether they want to stay in India or not. Now that is not the position of the Indian state. So what does that make me? patriotic? or unpatriotic? In my opinion it makes me very patriotic, because I care about what Kashmiri (Indians) want. ”
    I hope your patriotism doesnt make you think that we need a referendum for the Gujarati, Maharashtrian, Bengali …. so on and so forth

    “Languages, religion and even culture are things which can be adopted and they do change from time to time. For instance, I think its very likely, given current evidence that Sanskrit itself has its origin in central Asia, brought to India by Aryans. Same goes for religion, including the Vedas of the Hindu religon. ”
    Not really, evidence is not as strong as you claim it is. Recent article published in Science (or was it nature) points to the fact that Indians are composed of two gene families, at least one of which is EXCLUSIVE to the Indian subcontinent. Sanskrit has its origin in this part of India – the lower half if I am not mistaken.

    ” what does it even mean? eleven people defeat another eleven people. neither of whom you know personally. So why give it any more importance than it deserves? Why make it an issue of patriotism?”
    You can take a ‘universal brotherhood’ stance to ignore what you see, but please dont claim that the people who wave flags and cheer for their teams are cheering for them irrespective of their nationality. The teams are identified with their country names and each country has one NATIONAL team. Victory is a symbol of success for the respective countries. We are not talking about neutral observers of humanity for god sake !!

    ” I think these are all indoctrinating techniques to make money. They need a fan following– a base of supporters (to make profit), who will dutifully watch every match, so that there are enough people to buy tickets, and watch on tv, which also ensures that there are enough people to buy what the corporations are advertising on those channels….. They are just using you.”
    Lets not confuse capitalism with patriotism. People compete in Olympics and are proud to represent their own country. Olympics are a commercial venture too, but that doesnt make the athlete or his/her fans any less patriotic.

    Bobby Reply:

    “Recent article published in Science (or was it nature) points to the fact that Indians are composed of two gene families, at least one of which is EXCLUSIVE to the Indian subcontinent.”

    This very sentence tells me why its pointless talking to you. All of us are are talking in english, yet we are not Europeans, are we?

    When you understand the difference between being in the same gene family and talking in the same language, then we can discuss further.

    K Reply:

    Bobby bhai, dont run away from the points I have made.

    My reference to gene families was to prove that all of us havent migrated from the west, so your point that Sanskrit with us from Central Europe could be baseless.

    There is a distinct possibility that Sanskrit originated in India and your beloved central europeans learnt it on their looting spree to India.

    Bobby Reply:

    My dear K,

    “prove that all of us havent migrated from the west, so your point that Sanskrit with us from Central Europe could be baseless…”

    You don’t understand what the issue is. I will try nevertheless.

    Firstly, most people are very likely long term settlers, for around 20,000 or even more years. But thats not the point. There was a migration, just like the persian-afghan Muslim settlers, they were few in numbers. But they brought the language Sanskrit with them and most hymns of the Rig Veda were composed before they reached India, which was adopted by the people here, either forcefully sometimes and sometimes through assimilation. This is called the Aryan Migration theory. Its based on linguistic studies,and has nothing to do with the gene research, which deals with much longer time scales.

    Just take the example of the muslims in India. Most of them are converts, right? Very few are actually of Indo-persian-Afghan decent. However, the religion Islam is adopted by a far greater number. Agreed? Similarly the language Urdu, which has been adopted by a larger population, who were converts and not originally of Persian decent.

    What does this show? This shows that religion and Language and culture are adopted and can very quickly replace another one as the dominant one. The people may be the same. Hope you get the point!

    K Reply:

    Religion, Language and Culture can be quickly adopted – doesnt really prove that Sanskrit was adopted.
    We are not discussing the origin of Sanskrit anyway.

    We were talk about indian names, indian victories and the national song. According to you, Indian names dont make you ‘Indian’ – I think non-Indian names make you less ‘Indian’ in your identity compared to someone with an ‘Indian’ name.

    Cheering for another country ONLY when it wins against India, makes you less Indian in spirit.

    An Indian Not bowing to his/her motherland with respect makes him/her less ‘Indian’ compared to someone who does.

    Please also explain why Asking for a kashmiri referendum makes you think you are more patriotic and why this screwed up logic doesnt apply to other states, also whether your ‘referendum as patriotism’ idea makes sense in the Kashmir of 2009.

    Bobby Reply:

    “We are not discussing the origin of Sanskrit anyway…”

    Yes, I agree.

    “According to you, Indian names dont make you ‘Indian’…”

    No, I meant the phrase “Indian name” does not make any sense. Is John an Indian name for instance? How would you define an “Indian name”?

    “Cheering for another country ONLY when it wins against India, makes you less Indian in spirit.”

    I do not agree. Does voting for Angelina Jolie over Aishwarya Rai in a international beauty contest make you less Indian?

    “An Indian Not bowing to his/her motherland with respect makes him/her less ‘Indian’ compared to someone who does.”

    Again, I do not agree. Firstly what do you mean bow before your motherland? Bow before some map of India? That sounds crazy!

    All you need to do is be a helpful person, and help people in need. Legally its also needed to go by the laws of the country. Thats all. everything else is BS.

    “Please also explain why Asking for a kashmiri referendum makes you think you are more patriotic”

    Well my saying that it makes me more patriotic was of course an over statement, but in some sense it does I guess a case can be made for that position. That’s because, by supporting referendum, you are agreeing with the demand of a large chunk of the kashmiri population. And If i consider myself an Indian, then I should be concerned about the needs of Indians.

    “and why this screwed up logic doesnt apply to other states,”

    If there was a demand from other states, then I think one should consider it as well. But fact is that Kashmir is different from other states, because its an unsolved issue since partition, unlike any other state. There is a dispute involving another country, which does not exist for any other region.

    “also whether your ‘referendum as patriotism’ idea makes sense in the Kashmir of 2009.”

    Why not? What right do we have to keep a state under permanent military control, with 7,00,000 military men posted there? If a group of people do not want to stay with India, then why keep them under force? How is it different from British rule in India?

    K Reply:

    Bobby, you take an extreme stance against the Indian state and beliefs of Indians when you get a chance. I dont know how that makes you patriotic.

    That a ‘large chunk’ of Kashmiris want referendum is simply not true. You are announcing the results of a referendum as being against India, even before a referendum has happened ! If you loved India, you would assume the opposite until the need for referendum was proven to exist.
    If the separatists had a ‘large chunk’ with them, those who took part in the elections would have won. They lost, which means they dont have enough support from the people.
    Now, you will blame India for rigging the elections this time which is not true according to international observers.
    With the calls for referendum, you have a chance to acknowledge that the demographics of Kashmir have changed due to genocide of hindus and infestation by ex-army officers on the PoK side. You will, however, not care to mention these facts when you ask for a referendum.
    If Kashmiris asked for going to Pakistan in 2009 due to all the religious brainwashing, do you think granting this would be in the interest of Kashmiris ? Kashmir is safe with India and even the moderate separatists seem to acknowledge this.

    Only fanatic liberals like you will live outside the danger zone forever and throw Kashmir and India into greater uncertainty under the garb of patriotism.

    Let me try to explain what ‘bow to motherland with respect means’ – its the kind of respect you should give your parents because they fed you when you couldnt shit on your own !

    Bobby Reply:

    I do not know what the Kashmiris want, but it seems to me that a significant proportion want independence, or some kind of autonomy. In any case, this can be understood, by having a referendum. Of course, in any such referendum the voice of the kashmiri hindus must be taken into account.

    I am not proposing any solution, all I am saying is that the GoI should have , as a matter of principle, considered the referendum as a solution, instead of blabbering ‘atoot ang’ nonsense.

    “Let me try to explain what ‘bow to motherland with respect means’ – its the kind of respect you should give your parents because they fed you when you couldnt shit on your own !”

    Parents are human beings, so I know what respecting them means, not so sure about piece of land. What am I supposed to do? kiss the footpath every time I walk?

    K Reply:

    Bobby, have you ever respected anything that you cannot kiss ? lol !!

    I guess you respect liberal, communist thought so you support it at every forum. When in doubt, you support ‘universal human rights’.

    If you can do the same for India that would be a great start !

  • syed

    becoming lazy these day. EAsier to paste links than to think & type…
    This is given without comment

    http://www.thehindu.com/2009/10/03/stories/2009100355140700.htm

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Syed these are beamed from Tv channels whenver and wherever that happens.. TV channels do their level best to bring these kind of happy incidents to the forefront.. They even do their level best to hide incidents like killing of a hindu boy for marrying a musoim girl in kashmri valely under police custody..

    Similar case happeend in Kolkata where boy was muslik and we heard no end of it for months btu this incident didn;t pass muster even for an hour let alone months..

    Point being when you arrange a meeting ground of different religious GUrur invite home minister and then spew nonsense there it’s bound to be noticed by one and all.
    I wonder why Mr Kalbe Sidique is nto on the forefront of these AIMPLB and others one reason may be because he is Shia

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    I dont think he has a website or FB but thats a good suggestion. I think I’ll tell him to have one.

    However things are not so hunky dory within the Shia community. The religious leaders of the community are notorious for their infighting. Then their children – embezzling money from donations given by the community and lots of salacious stories on their flings (must be a nawabi throwback).

    And by the way, I think the deobandis make up around 15-20% of the muslim population in India (incl shias). While this is a respectable figure, it by no way means that deobandis should be taken to represent the entire muslim populaauon. Then why does the govt bend mainly to the deobandis?

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Deobandis shout alot that’s why Congress visit to pay homage on their feet every now and then..

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Syed,
    Beats me. The only explanation I have is that Deobandis have been traditionally close to Congress and was used as a counterpoint to Muslim League and the “AMU-types” (read English educated, loyal to the Brits..). As for why the media laps them up, you should pose this question to Zia.
    The recent conference was used by Congress again to build bridges with JUH. UP elections need to be faught and won, the Muslim vote is up from grabs since Mullah Mulayam has gone and embraced Kalyan Singh.
    Crying baby gets more milk.. but, in this case, the baby is happy with tokenism. It is really absurd. This is like if I had an employee who came to me and said, I don’t need a raise, I will work for a pittance and never leave you.. only thing I need is that you allow me to take Friday off instead of Sunday.. wow!
    Really, the Muslim community does not need the vicious Hindu bigots like me, Syed, to self-destruct. It is a pity. Sincerely.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    Exactly.
    Thats why I get pis*** off with all this talk regarding how much muslims are being appeased/pampered. Because as any sane person can see, it is even less than tokenism.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    If Muslims themselves can’t tell the difference; why blame the government?
    Instead of saying we want to participate in education for all, and build common cause across the political spectrum with everyone; the demand is for more madrassas, more minority institutes, more religious education, more Urdu / Arabic medium education….

    I really liked Kalbe Sadiq’s straight talk where he says, “decide whether you want more houses for people for houses for God”.. what a guy!

    Dammit, separate identity is not the solution; with luck, our children will evolve a composite identity.

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    These days I am happy that I found some sane voices like Syed, Mirza etc. who use mind other wise, after reading many Zia’s posts in last six months made me doubt whether India will ever be able to live peacefullt.

    Coz soft fundamentalists like Zia, Bobby, etc are more dangerours than like of kasab.

    I hope i will encounter more rational persons like Mirza, syed etc and less of soft fundamenalist n hypocrites like javed akhtar-sabana azmi brand of secularists.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    There are two kinds of terrorists-
    1. Hard terrorists like Kasab, Hafiz Saeed types.
    2. Soft terrorists like Zia, Bobby types.

    The second type is more dangerous because it provides argument to first type to defend its terrorist activities. The second type is the one that spreads propaganda and hate. Remember India was divided by second type terrorists (Jinnah and co.) who instigated first type (fundoo muslims) to riot and make life hell for majority.

    It will happen again if we don’t decimate second type with iron hand.

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    This is a question for Zia and all the bloggers who follow Islam.
    Why every-time You give “Khuda Ki Duhai” for all your matters?
    Whether you are asking for your daily bread, your rights, grants, even you declare war based on “Khuda”!
    How long will you’ll be using “Allah” as your shield?

    Now the other theory which is very much in focus, Sanjeev as you mentioned the soft fundamentalists. There is a very common thought in hindi- “ agar admi ka peth bhara ho to woh muh nahin kholta” the people you named they may be following a religion and practising it in their homes, which is fine. They have attained a social status because not for their religion or their beliefs but because of their talent and thus society has acknowledged that.

    So the matter here is not fundamentalism it is the very old disease poverty, if suppose the govt’ takes an initiative, mind you, not to segregate in terms of minority subsidy and other tokens but a constructive substantial step to identify the problem and give a solution by actually upgrading Muslims in India. Where they do not have to give “Khuda Ki Duhai” for every-thing. I think India can claim to be a Secular Republic then.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    I think this whole episode really highlights the predicament the Indian muslims find themselves in. In a civilized society, one is assumed innocent till proved guilty. For the Indian muslims though, its the other way round. If some nut says something, then it immediately becomes a way to judge every muslim in India, and one has to come out every time and say- “look I dont agree with that nut, now please leave me alone!”

    In the meantime, some other nuts belonging to the “most tolerant faith” can come up with absolutely gibberish and potentially dangerous statements, which they do from time to time, but since “people of the most tolerant faith”(PMTF) are owners of India, simply by being PMTF, so they are not asked to repudiate those statements, unlike the intolerant muslims, who are living in India due to extreme genorosity of the PMTF.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Since terrorists, caught in the act or after the act, all proclaim that their source of inspiration was some verse or the other in Quran, it is in the best interests of all sane Muslims to
    – dissociate publicly from such acts and condemn the justification of such acts in the name of religion.
    2. Stop quoting chapter and verse of the Book at the drop of a hat to promote any agenda, progressive or regressive. The message should be, the Book was written many years back; this is the 21st century; guys, get a life. In this century, we do things because it is in the interests of the country, even self-interest is fine. Just do it becuase it is a good thing to do; not necessarily because it is written in the Quran.
    Because if you thought like that, then if there are verses (yeah, yeah only to twisted bigoted minds) which preach violence, then who can blame a devoted Muslim from following through?

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    Exactly, if the so called religious religion wants to go back to the stone age please do so but not at India’s mercy.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    PMTF dont claim that India is only for one religion – thats a falsehood perpetuated by PLTF (People of less tolerant faiths) to create insecurity that leads to factionalism in society.

    The need for generosity doesnt arise because if you are an indian, you need to be a PMTF (Person of Most tolerant faith) by default.

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    @K, Good Gyan but its never in use.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    That is utter nonsense.

    A Muslim major in the US Army shot and killed 13 of his fellow sldiers in an US military camp last week. He believed in Umma, did not want to go to Afghanistan (he was about to be shipped there) and fight against his BROTHERS.

    He, as well as the jihadists creating mayhem all over – Pakistan, Somaia, KSA, UK, USA, India——-are all the products of institutions like Darul Uloom ; many are influenced by Deobandis.

    So, it will be the height of irresponsibilitry and utter nonsense to ignore what these Clerics are saying.

    The Umma, Dar al ISlam/Dar Al Harb, Believer/Kauffr ; Allah (most Muslims confuse this with religion; delibertely promoyed by Mullahs)/country – all these are hard wired in a large number of Muslims through their “must” religious education. All these are incompatible with modern nation/state, democratic institutions; creating contardictions, driving many Muslism to commit murder/violence.

    The Muslim issue rests with Muslims only. Anything else is just a noise.

    Many in these blogs have talked about the “Frozen Islam” and the need for “Reformation”. Until that happens; which it will at the climax of these issues, we will see these problems whereever “Quranic” (strictly adhering to Quran) Muslims live. All will be worse off if Sunny orthodoxy wins. Pakistan will be a test; even if the army is able to control, the sustainability is questsionable.

    It was the clerics who shut Ijtihad off in 1100s. They will not give the accumulated power over 900 years so easily. Only a followers’ revolt will resolve these contardictions.

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    Gopi, Bobby

    Gopi – your inference about Deobandi’s indirect influence in creating potential terrorists is right. I believe (and hope) the influence is only on a small minority. But, hope cannot be a strategy; and a minority can still create a havoc..

    There is a dangerous narrative among fringes of the Muslim world that the human history is a war between Islam on one side and Judaism/Christianity/Kauffrs on the other side .This fringe does not see others as fully human. They come to believe that it is admirable to murder others. This fringe knowingly or unknowingly is stroked by instituitions such as Darul Uloom. These people shout Allah U Akbar and then start murdering.

    The army major you mentioned had a choice – he could have asked for a discharge. However, he chose the “War on Islam” narartive that always leads to murderous results.

    Whatever be the size of this fringe, it has craeated incredible amount of suffering in India, Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world,, US, and many other countries.

    India will be better off by monitoring Darul uloom and otehr institutions. The “brotehrhood” is alive and active. We dont see as many cries of Allah-u-Akbar and indisctiminate suicide attacks because of the fear of massive retaliatory attacks (Godra/Gujrat). The readiness is pollinated in Hyderabad, Azamgarh, Kerala, Maharashtra and many other places by the maulavis. A new orthodox Sunni organization gets germinated every day because they think their leaders are not fighting enough with teh government and otehr invisible forces who stand in the way between them and whatever they want. Our corrupt police and politicians, i am sure, are not tarcking these developments. .

    Buyers and bystanders beware!

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    “your inference about Deobandi’s indirect influence in creating potential terrorists is right”

    Well since we are talking of indirect influences, we might as well speak about direct influences. If you look at what all the muslims, caught in terrorist acts have said, including the most recent case of the guy caught in Nepal, all of them have said how Gujarat riots, and the atrocities that has happened on muslims there has influenced them, and changed their views about India.

    I feel this is a much bigger and direct influence than what is or is not written in the Koran. Real people get effected by real events, so if you want any serious discussion on Islamic terror, dont look into books written in the 7th century, look at current events.

    Of course, I very much doubt that PMTF are in any way interested in the facts, all they are interested in is muslim bashing, and self glorification.

    “A Muslim major in the US Army shot and killed 13 of his fellow sldiers in an US military camp last week”

    And there we go again: Please tell me how many such cases has happened over the last several years involving muslims, since the Iraq and Afgahnistan wars happened?

    Do you know that cases of shootings have taken place in the US army before? Its easy to lose ones head in such situations, it has happened even in the Indian army in Kashmir, as well as other high pressure places. During the Korean war there have been cases of US army men deserting the army in battlefield. And no they were not muslims.

    Please be a bit more rational.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    “Well since we are talking of indirect influences, we might as well speak about direct influences. If you look at what all the muslims, caught in terrorist acts have said, including the most recent case of the guy caught in Nepal, all of them have said how Gujarat riots, and the atrocities that has happened on muslims there has influenced them, and changed their views about India. ”

    Bobby, since you are quoting highly credible sources (like mass muderers) you must be right!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    Your point about Gujarat riots is pertinent as to the cause of inflaming Muslims opinion all over and, consequently, creating more terrorists. But, haven’t we had enough. Surely, there have been enough attacks after that to revenge the pogrom in Gujarat many times over. At some point of time, we have to say, enough is enough. By that kind of reasoning, Sikhs should still be avenging 1984 riots. One has to move on at some point of time. Sadly, your reasons seem to be weak. As for the Major killing fellow US soldiers, let’s not fool ourselves that his angst with respect to US invading Muslim lands had nothing to do with it, and that he was just a troubled soul who had no girlfriend and in a moment of madness, he decided to take 13 innocent lives. That sort of reasoning absolves any personal responsibility. I guess, we can go on and say that Mumbai attackers were, at heart, misguided souls in need of therapy.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “enough is enough” only after justice is done, same for the Sikh riots. Its not enough, just because several years has passed. The point is justice has to be done. The man behind the pogrom, still is happily the CM of a state. So, no! “enough is not enough”.

    People tend to forget that the Sikh riots and terrorism continued for several years; a good part of the decade of the 80’s was dominated by that. Its not that there were no repurcursions. It took quite a while and a hell lot of violence before things were controlled.

    Also the situation is different in this case, because of the existence of global Islamic fundamentalist groups, which makes it harder to subdue these acts.

    The first step to fight terrorism is eliminate the root causes- the parent injustice. That would go a long way in reducing terror in the world. Its true in India, as it is in the rest of the world. Stop Israeli state terror, and there will be a good reduction in the number of recruits to global Islamic terrorist groups.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Bobby,
    you have answered your own question. You agree then that all these issues should be resolved by judiciary and not by gangs of loons taking lives of innocent people. Who can dispute that assertion. The difference between you and others(including me) is that we do not provide those ready made reasons for heinous activities of terrorists that you seem to gulp at the earliest possible opportunity. It’s a myth that terrorism will subside when Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved. By the way, what have we to do with that conflict. It’s all a fight for power. Once that is resolved they would move on to some other issue. I would be amazed if tomorrow LET would disband telling its comrades that all the perpetrators of Gujarat riots have been punished, so we should all go home and plough our lands and live happily ever after.

  • S Singh

    Mr Bobby

    You state ” In all societies one is innocent until proven guilty; however, in India, it is the other way around”

    Which world are you living in? Have you heard about Imrana, Salma, and numerous other cases? In all these cases, there is not even a review by the “elders” (per Sharia); the women were guilty because they were raped. Imrana was asked to marry her father-in-law (so also many others like her in those situations).

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    Actually what interested me in the article was this piece ..”these politically influential maulvis send their sons to modern schools and even abroad, but they won’t let us madrasa students, most of who come from very poor families, learn anything about the modern world. They want us to remain ignorant so that they can continue to play politics in our name”.

    In the deobandi context it is 100% true. Can’t really expect any universal worldview from them with this sort of upbringing/education.

    All the more reason for Kapil Sibal to unilaterally hammer in reforms in madarsa education. At the cost of repetition – there will NOT be any backlash. At the end of the day the common people are smarter than we give them credit for.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Well similar things I have seen in my beloved (and benighted?) state of West Bengal where a whole generation lost out on English education while the comrades continued to send their kids to Calcutta Boys, St Lawrence and St Xaviers..
    Politicians have a stake in keeping the “poor huddled masses” as they are.. just glad to be alive.

    I do however feel that Kapil Sibal is more a motor-mouth than anything else. He has announced committees, roundtables, initiatives and like without the foggiest idea about how to bring any of them to fruition. You are clutching at straws. Education is, unfortunately not an issue that gets votes.
    Only when there is a groundswell of resentment at the fact that Pakistan spends more per capita on education than India does will the politicians take notice.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear S Singh,

    I do not get your point. I said in any civilized society it is indeed the case that a person is assumed innocent till found guilty. If there are cases where this rule is not followed, then by definition those societies are not civilized, in my opinion. But none of that rejects what I said.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Mr Bobby
    i pressed the send button too soon…

    Darul Uloom also wanted Imrana to marry her father-in-law; they issues a Fatwa also regarding this.

    I really thought Chidambaram was “above” politics. He has disappointed me by attending the 10,000 maulavi meet in Deonand. He should have at least said customs and practices have to be examined in the prism of the modern world.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Can anyone post the full and complete text of these fatwa’s ?

    On another front, just watch my words.
    India is going to have a Beslan type tragedy very soon.
    The Jihadi’s are full of hate for the kafirs and even children will not be spared…

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Sam, and the Jeev twins,

    You will be pleased to know that you guys are getting popular! They are making a movie on you 3!! , (at least from the name of the movie). Unfortunately it has a Muslim named Amir Khan as one of the leading stars!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby-Zia-Jinnah

  • Syed

    @Ashish
    I think that Pakistan has only now really started spending on education but that is the direction we also need to take.

    Talking of Calcutta & calcutta boys, I have extremely fond memories of that city. My father was posted in a suburb called Santragachi (Railways). In santragachi we studied is what was called a mixed primary railway school (where vande mataram was sung in the morning assembly). Later on we shifted to Garden Reach & then I was sent to Calcutta Boys where I developed my love for fish & chingri. Very nice city indeed..

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Garden Reach.. would that be the Railway quarters on Remount Road? Those were really nice.

    My Mama went to Calcutta Boys, in the days when the legendary Hicks was the Principal..
    I of course studied in a Bengali Medium “multipurpose” school in South Calcutta till we moved to Delhi when I was 12 years old. Not because any comrade forced me, I hasten to add..

    My feelings of the city are mixed. Since the time our family shifted to Delhi, I have lived in Calcutta for only two years at a stretch. I love going back periodically as a tourist.. going back to settle, no sir! Of course the fish… what can I say except to aver that one of the most “romantic” moments in our married life has been the the one time I took my wife to eat at Mocambo in Free School Street.
    Enough of digression.. now back to the infidels and jihadis ..

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Akash
    ” Surely, there have been enough attacks after that to revenge the progrom in Gujarat many times over. At some point of time, we have to say, enough is enough”

    Enough attacks to cover Gujarat many times over? But what is the guarantee it won’t happen again? After all the forced behind Gujarat PROGROM still exist and continue to thrive.
    The only way to ensure Gujarat does not repeat is to make sure that religion is all for Allah. Even Quran says: And fight them until persecution is no more, and Religion is all for Allah. That is why Allah sent his guidance and the Religion of Truth, so that it prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters
    may be averse.

    About the US Major, let me point out that Investigators are yet to zero in on the real motive and there are so many possibilities. Detailed investigations could lead to opening of newer frontiers in mental health care!
    As for the possibilities :
    PTSD: Post traumatic stress disorder what ? He was yet to go in the battle field! Okay so it must be Pre Traumatic stress disorder
    Or it could be Vicarious PTSD : you see he was dealing with the emotional agony of so many soldiers suffering from PTSD.

    Or may be Compassion Fatigue, or burnout.
    May be he was a anti-war radical
    Why not Religious Discrimination, harassment, oppression
    When white kids go on shooting spree no body talks about Christianity why?
    What he made a presentation arguing war on terror is war on Islam in an environmental health class ? So what isn’t freedom of speech a fundamental right in US? In any case, additional knowledge never hurts.

    He requested the army to Allow Muslims to be conscientious objectors in joining the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? Freedom of speech, no religious discrimination are American ideals. Why did US not got to war with a Christian country also when they decided to attack Afghanistan or Iraq?

    Communicating with radical Imams? Well FBI clarified those as consistent with his research areas.

    Moral of the story ? It is time we stop being hypocrites and actually start treating all religion and all people on par

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Bobby @Akash @Sam@Ashish @SKS

    Bobby – regarding the Muslim Major in the US Army “how many such cases happened involving Muslims since the iraq war” “During the korean war there have been cases in the US army of soldiers deserting”..

    US Army apparently does not specifically require the religious affiliation to be listed in their application form (they may start now!). However, people can volunteer that info, and there are 3457 listed as Muslims. Including this major, there has been seven cases of Muslim army men attacking or killing fellow army brothers (even in the army, a Muslim’s brother is not the fellow soldier, it is the brother in the distant lands!). Seven out of three thousand is a big number for an institution like army; all these were done on behalf of Allah to protect Dar al Islam, and not personal attacks based on enmity or jealousy. Regarding Korean war; desertion is common in any army. This major could have deserted! Instead he shouted Allah u Akbar and killed 13 soldiers (so that these soldiers will not fight in Dar al Islam). Unlike other illiterate suicide bombers; he did not have the courage to kill himself. Oh, by the way, he visited the girlie bar near his base three times in the last month; all the time paying and tipping well for the dancers to sit on his lap! (Sex, what a beautiful word! May be he was test driving the “72 virgin” concept)

    Attributing the frenzied violence in the Islamic world to (the Palestinian and other) injustice is feeble and disingenuous at best, and deliberately dishonest at the worst. We do not hear poverty as the root cause any more after it was found that seven of the 9/11 bombers had “boarding school” education.

    Nobody condones injustice. At various points in history many communities have suffered loss and injustice and subjugation at the hands of another. The native Americans are still marginalized in their own land. The Tibetan Budhists have been deprived off not just their country, but their cultural heritage at the hand of a regime with a fewer scruples than Israelis. (you dont see Thai, Vietnamese, or Cambodian Budhists taking the case of Ttibetans either!). Indians were for a long time under British, with many rights deprived. Within India itself, someof the people were deprived of basic human dignity in the caste system. Did these people plant bombs in crowded markets and railway stations? Did they send their “God’s warriors” to distant lands to create mayhem? Islam is unique in its ability to harness discontent, perceived or real, wrap up in self righteousness and channelize toward brutal violence. “Quranic” Muslims get spiritual salvation by spilling infidel blood. So, do not discount the power of the “Book” of 600s and Hate Institutes like Darul uloom, and try to justify terrorism based on the easily available “current reality” foyers, which are always there in dime and dozens. (however, one of the current reality is that Muslims , in large numbers, are relocating to Gujrat, because of the plentiful job situation. Figure it out!).

    The army major is not the only person who was motivated by the power of hatred preached eloquently by the so called “illiterate Mullahs”. They are everywhere. They incarnate as Kafeel Ahmed and Sabeel Ahmed who bomb Glasgow airport. Privileged children of a successful doctor couple (who runs their own hospital) in Banaglore; they go to UK for higher studies; and they choose the Terrorist Studies condiucted by firebrand Mullahs there. Wheeras, one Thomas Anantharaman, from a basic lower middlecalss background go abroad for higher studies and become a world class expert in “Bayasian Inference” ; a Sathyanarayanan finds out “talking chips” and become one of the youngest professors in Carnegie Mellon, a Thomas Zachariah explores the secrets of atom as the director of Oakridge Lab, a Rajiv Shah helps the disadvantaged in the world as the chief of USAid. What motivates Somali Muslims born and brought up in US (Minneapolis) join Al Shahab in Somalia? What motivates a capable young man, Shirwin Ahmed, who because of his birth in US could have become the abovementioned Rajiv Shah or Satyanarayan or Zacharia, join Al Shahab and kill himself and many others?

    Freedom, secularism, individual responsibility etc are all anathema to the true belivers in the Book. As such, I agree with Sam that major imminent attacks are highly probable and possible here.

    As I have mentioned many times in this blog, we should not couple “causes” and terrorists. Both have to be dealt with, independent of each other. Terrorists have to be hunted down; attacked preemptively, killed and destroyed.. Darul Uloom and its ilkes should be under intelligence observation. We all know the Pakistani terrorists and its leaders are graduates of institutions sprung from Deobandi school.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Oh come on, you are just repeating the same thing again and again, even though I have shown counter example of these many times.

    LTTE, VIETCONG, ULFA, KHALISTAN MOVEMENT, all were terrorists.

    If you look at the history of Israel, the members of the Zionist movement used terrorist acts like blowing up buildings and restaurants, to force the British and have their state.

    In fact Syed had already sent a link of anrachist european terrorists in 19th century.

    So what are we talking about?

    Secondly as I have asked you before, please define terrorism in some reasonable way, for instance the way the UN and the US army manuals define it, the US and Israel are nothing if not terrorist states. Israeli government is a clear cut example of a terrorist state.

    Finally, “we should not couple “causes” and terrorists.”

    This statement is ridiculous. Terrorism is an extreme crime. As with any other crime, you cannot stop it unless you understand why it happens, and this means the “causes” have to be understood, and the cradle from which this springs has to demolished, which means the “root causes”.

    Even if Muhammed was never born, and there was no Islam, there would still be Oil in the Gulf, and that would mean that the US would ensure that no democratic governments arise there, and instead they would still prop up puppets like in SA, and still Israel would have driven out and usurped Palestinian lands……

    And believe me, there would still be resistance, some led by non violent peace movements(as it is today), and others led by violent terrorists (again like today), they would then invoke some other book or ideology. Nothing would have changed.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    Can you go through the quotes I have posted from the Chowk article (JUH constitution as far back as 1919 and Madni’s comments as recent as late 60’s)? Also read Iqbal’s quotes about uniting against Hindus..
    It is you who keep repeating the same arguments, again and again.. basically opinions without any supporting facts except testimonies from terrorists and mass murderers.
    RSS was formed in mid 20’s. THe infamous Golwalkar tract was written even later; in1938. While Golwalkar and RSS have renounced that book (the last copy was printed in 1947), it continues to be fodder for leftists.
    Who started what? Who followed whom?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    @Ashish,

    The Hindu Mahasabha was formed in 1915. Its influence on the congress was increasing over the years, and this along with the changing nature of the congress, with more religion creeping in, and the increasing hold of the Hindu Mahasabha on it was one of the primary reasons, for Jinnah (wrongly in my opinion) to quit the congress and join the Muslim league. To know better, one can read the book by historian Ayesha Jalal: “the sole spokesman”

    One has to differentiate between minority communalism and majority communalism, the former, many times rightly, is born out of fear of being marginalized, while the latter if unchecked is a recipe towards fascism…. look at the fear created in Germany against the minority Jews.

    About RSS “renouncing the book”, i am assuming you said that in jest. What exactly did you expect from the RSS when they were given an ultimatum by Sardar Patel (after Gandhi’s death), that if you want to get the ban on your organization lifted, then better mend your ways and philosophy. Views can not change so much in a few years time, and proof of that are the results coming out of the “hindutva laboratory”- Gujarat.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    The last copy of “We” was printed in 1947. Fact. No current RSS swayamsevak- no one from the post 1947 generation, would even read this. THe only two paragraphs that you are fond of quoting are found only in leftist journals; not in RSS’s own literature.
    Howver, JUH’s regressive agenda is up in full bloom. They want to, again to quote:

    *To establish good and friendly relations with the non-Muslims of the country to the extent permitted by the Shariat-I-Islamiyah (WHAT IF RSS OR VHP OR BAJRANG DAL CAME UP AND SAID WE WILL MAINTAIN GOOD RELATIONS WITH MUSLIMS ONLY TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY … WELL, BOBBY, HELP ME HERE, QUOTE SOME HATE LITERATURE FROM THE HINDUS);

    * To fight for the freedom of the country and religion (FREEDOM OF RELIGION EQUALS TO SHARIAT) according to the Shariat objectives;

    * To establish Shariat courts to meet the religious need of the community (JUST THINK IF RSS OR VHP SAID THEY WANT TO INTRODUCE LAWS BY MANU)

    * To propagate Islam in India by way of missionary activities in India, and foreign land (JUST THINK IF RSS OR VHP SAID THIS)

    * To maintain and strengthen the bond of unity and fraternal relations (as ordained by Islam) with Muslims of other countries. (UMMAH)

    –Unquote (comments in CAPS above mine)

    Bobby, people like you are the single biggest enemy of the Indian Muslims. Like the commies in West Bengal and Congress governments through 60 years of misrule, you have a stake in keeping your constituency of poor, huddled masses alive.

    Ashish Reply:

    the last sentence should have ended,
    ..”.. poor, huddled masses alive and poor”.

    Bobby Reply:

    Ashish,

    You like other PMTF are free to turn a blind eye on realities happening in this country. I cannot help it if you do not or choose not to understand the difference between minority communalism and majority communalism ( which is basically fascism).

    As far as the difference between the congress and the BJP is concerned, its the difference between Majority communalism and Oppurtunism. The former I feel is a bigger threat, anyday.

    What happened in Gujarat, and Orissa was a wake up call. The years of BJP rule was the period, when they tried their level best to rewrite history, fabricate lies and introduce astrology into Science classes. If you do not see the parallel in this to what the Pakistani governments have been trying to do, then well…… sleep tight.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby @Ashish

    The minority (Muslims)is already fascist. They are card carrying members of Islamofascists.

    Let me also tell you – good, bad, indifferent; there will not be a communal riot in Gujrat any more, except if it is started by the majority community, as long as the current government is in power.

    Muslims from other parts (from whereelse – UP and Bihar) have started relocating to Gujrat in big numbers because of the abundant jobs the killer has created.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby

    You are right – we cannot lump Viet Cong and the other terrorism you mentioned with the Islamic terrorism. Viet cong was a liberatrion movement against colonisers and to be occupiers. Khalistan, LTEE etc were terrorists; focused on a single “grievance”, single geographic location. ie Khalistan terrorists didnt bomb UK or LTEE didnt bomb Canada. However, an UK Islamic terrorist will bomb Pakistan, India, UK.., an Arab Islamic terrorist will bomb Afghanistan, iraq, India.,US so on and so forth.

    Of course there will be situations that does not have anything to do with “Mohamed”. The mass murders of communism and Stalinist totalitarianism or Nazism did not have anything to do with Mohamed.

    Instead of “even if Mohamed was not born…. ‘ , let us look into the reality of “Mohamed was born”and current realities.. Islamic Fundamentalism, Islamic terrorism, Islamism, however we may coin it, is an existential threat to our way of living; and political leaders who do not take it serious is compromising their country’s and their people’s security.

    If Islamic terrorism is angry reaction to Western and Israeli injustices, what about the violence between Fatah and Hamas? What about the Islamists slaughtering of Budhists in Thailand? What about the destruction of Bamyan Budhas in Pashtun areas? What about the Sunni and Shia killings permanent in Iraq and Paakistan? What about the massacres in Algeria? What about the present day killings in Pakistan and Afghanistan? And, b y the way, Palestinian issue was not even on the “top 5″ list of Al Sawhiri and Osama when they started their venture..

    Islamic terrorism is caused by Islamism; a certain reading of Quran and Sunnah, a blind adherence to the tardition of ancients, a literal and immovable reading, without self, life, soul — The orthodox Sunni clerics are driving this passion.

    The “injustice” theory, with its root cause arguments, leaves no room for the religious passion or Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic fundamentalism involves a set of beliefs that lie beyond particular resentments.Under Islamic fundamentalism, in both religious and political forms, all aspect of life is found by a single set of ideas. Those laws also demand that they must be accepted universally and that great battles be waged on its behalf. The fundamentalists do not believe these ideas have any limits or boundaries. Goals are not restricted to a particular place or particular time (hence the “traveling suicide bomber”, Arab going to Chechnya , Uzbeks coming to our Kashmir). The place is every place. It is expansionist, it must extend its reach as a part of the great battle.

    So, in the world of the fundamentalist Muslim terrorist, one man’s terrorist is far from being just another person’s freedom fighter.

    The Islamic terrorist’s objective is not to eliminate injustice, but to eliminate opposition. It leaves no aspect of life exempt from the battle being waged. Nobody is allowed (including Muslims) to stand in the way of its totalitarian ideas.Opposition is guilt; punishment is death. Injustices and policies can be argued over, but not as root causes of fundamentalist Islamic terror. Islamic terrorism stands above such “niceties”. No injustices, separated or together , necessarily lead to the fundamentalist Islamic totalitarian terror; and no mitigation of injustice, however drafted, will eliminate its unwavery beliefs, absolutist control, and unbound ambitions.

    Claims and calls of “root cause” are distarction for the real work at hand. If we were flies on the walls of Deobandi Darul Uloom, I bet crores that we will hear Mullahs preaching this vision to eager students.

    As Shoeb said “buyers and bystanders beware”.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Ok guys..

    MECA (Muslim Educational and Cultural Association) – may be a Sunni orthodox outfit associated with Darul uloom – has asked for central and state holidays to be declared for Nov 29 and 30th in future, to celebrate Eid Al Azha (whatever it is)

    I am confident our government will take care of this monority need.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @S Singh
    this, if I am not mistaken, are couple of days following the Hajj.. I think to allow the pilgrims to recuperate from the arduous pilgrimmage.
    I do not think 2 days of holidays will be enough; the government must ensure that the entire duration of Hajj is declared a public holiday; for Hindus and Muslims alike.

    [Reply]

  • navjeet

    …ok guys I wanna clarify some points moreover to myself .my frst querry goes straight to bobby that what makes a layman think that a terrorist is most probably a muslim?.have you ever imagined how this paranoia developed ?….its a general instinct..the most probabilistic thought that runs in our mind when we imagine a terrorist..?..and I believe it’s the most unfortunate part though its real;
    for you my friend I agree with your point of calling “causes and terrorists” seperatly as ridiculous is the “causes” thing the only fuel behind all that massacre till date which needs no citations .millions dead already and a million lives being spotted already for more of this carnage what cause can justify all these inhuman act….
    nw lets talk something specific… In your purest opinion gujarat riots must be one of a soul cause of this bitterness in general…let me draw a very simple authentic and cited reference and comparison for you ..which says In 1984, the Sikhs were butchered. In 2002, Muslims attacked Hindus and as many as 254 Hindus were killed in the Gujarat riots. In 1984, riots occurred outside New Delhi, including places like West Bengal, while not a single riot occurred outside Gujarat in 2002.In 1984, officially 3,000 Sikhs were killed and many more in actual. Not a single Congressman was killed in 1984 riots (except Indira Gandhi) while as many as 313 Hindus were killed in Gujarat in 2002 AD, including 59 karsevaks killed in Godhra. not even one person was killed in 1984 in police firing, while nearly 200 people were killed in the Gujarat riots of 2002 AD. 40,000 Hindus were living in refugee camps in Gujarat, while not even a single relief camp was organized for the Sikhs in 1984, not to talk of any Congressman needing to live in refugee camps. Not only was there a huge difference in the nature of the riots- there was also a huge difference in the government handling of the riots…..if u r intelligent and unbiased enough you may make out that which out of the two unfortunate event would more furiously ignite the people who suffer there was a single sided attack on unarmed people innocent population living their lives without any sort of complaints or bitterness for the govt or any other religion you want to know about more comparisons have a look at this blog… http://www.gujaratriots.com/category/07-contrasts-between-1984-and-gujarat-2002-riots/…..
    you know the basic difference was that in gujarat it was a raging anger between two religious pillars of our country supported and fuelled by some inhuman corupt and foolish leaders but 1984 was sheer act of one sided bloody revenge from the innocent…..dont you think sikh should have went on the same track of sheer butcherness with a post revolt following that carnage …don’t you think they should have thoght that india is not their country and start training camps instilling a terrorist in each of their young siblings and gave it a similar meaning term like “ljtihad”…or Did these people plant bombs in crowded markets and railway stations? Did they send their “God’s warriors” to distant lands to create insane killings?..
    and as per your loosely made comment “People tend to forget that the Sikh riots and terrorism continued for several years; a good part of the decade of the 80’s was dominated by that. Its not that there were no repurcursions. It took quite a while and a hell lot of violence before things were controlled.”….friend kindly cite me some repercusions of deadly anger and rage made by sikhs as a revolt for the same…most of the victims are still fighting for justice typically displeased by govt. though but still they have not resorted to some suicide bombing or attack at some indian delegation or court or any minister or any govt. party …why coz u thnk they are cowards ?? or they are’nt humans ?? or they lack emotions they are’nt hurt or rather they may be insensitive to see their own blood burnt alive in front of their eyes??…no if there’s a cause there’s a way to deal with it always…I agree there may be 100’s of such incidents or displeasing acts against muslims in and outside india but the situation worsens when there’s an equal and banging reply from both sides when organisations like let ,jaish-e taib,become the whole sole incharge of being the only decision makers and have a look at their motives do u agrre with those ?? are those gonna solve your issues??.are those gonna effect the remedy making process for the causes??i fear not.
    Yes there are many ingredients for a recipe of a terrorist economical I’ve heard this a million times but when it was found that seven of the 9/11 bombers had “boarding school” education the economical crisis issue diluted…apart from this there has already been a lot of discussions on political interventions in igniting the fire by some institutions like Darul Uloom and many others who are the best influential people I’ve ever seen …they might be the one’s influencing “unaffected” people on lanes of religion to stray them away from right track and its just the time when a seed of bitterness gets implanted and grows thereafter…but leaving aside those there are many many such dark sides of activities and lines being set in the name of islam that’s just not done on muslims and muslim womens and children in particular.these conditions are decaying and needs speedy recoevery which is no where near…and lots of other complications along with it..
    It’s a simple fact that since the times of hitler considering the hardships borne by jewish many communities,sects,religions have faced or experienced losses ,and injustice but you gotta believe in some way .its a fact from several years that in the name of islam an unrighteous way was carved and that way to hell went on ruining lives with its violence.,such that people have developed in their sub concious that if he’s a terrorist …he might be belonging to islam…and I consider this highly unfortunate for muslims and islam in particular….if you are so religious if you shield your muslim U.S MAJOR..who killed 13 of his co-soldiers after shouting “allah hu akbar”..do you believe allah is gonna forgive him anyway for this …doing these acts are moreover perishing the image for a religion which is definetly a pillar of religiously cherished india. And my friend reading your responses I get a strong feeling of pessimism that nothing has changed and neither it would so moving further I really would be obliged to hear your opinion as to why it happens ?? rather how to put an end to it??

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Navjeet,

    “my frst querry goes straight to bobby that what makes a layman think that a terrorist is most probably a muslim?.have you ever imagined how this paranoia developed ?….its a general instinct..the most probabilistic thought that runs in our mind when we imagine a terrorist..?..and I believe it’s the most unfortunate part though its real;”

    Well the first question one should ask is, is that true? Is it indeed true that laymen think of muslims, when they hear of a terror act? Well depends. For instance, if you were in Srilanka till a few years back, the first thing you would think of is the LTTE, basically hindus. If you were a layman in Palestine, then the terrorist would be the State of Israel.

    Within India also, If you are a muslim in Gujarat, at least a few years back, the greatest terror threat would be the RSS/hindutva brigade, same if you were in orissa. If you were a layman in Kashmir and one of your family member goes missing, then the suspect would be the Indian army. If you were in the North East, and one of your women relatives would be raped, then the suspect would again be the Indian army man. If you were in Assam it would be the ULFA, not muslims. If you were in Chattisgarh, it would be either the Maoist or the Salwa Judum. So your basic premise is WRONG.

    “dont you think sikh should have went on the same track of sheer butcherness with a post revolt following that carnage …don’t you think they should have thoght that india is not their country and start training camps instilling a terrorist in each of their young siblings”

    You know when I read these lines I do not know how to react. My guess is that you are too young and were not around in the 80’s or maybe you live in the US for the last 20-30 years. In any case, there was a strong and violent seccessionist movement called the Khalistan movement. and Sikhs, any Sikh with a turban, was a suspect. There was terrible violence in Punjab, to the extent that it had to be turned into a police state. Lots of “encounter deaths” and missing members of various families, where the Indian army and the punjab police virtually killed any one they suspected. It was after such extreme use of force that the state got some control over Punjab.

    I mean, i don’t even understand, why I need to repeat this, which should be common knowledge to most Indians.

    “And my friend reading your responses I get a strong feeling of pessimism that nothing has changed and neither it would so moving further I really would be obliged to hear your opinion as to why it happens ?? rather how to put an end to it??”

    Well I am afraid, you got me completely wrong. I am quite optimistic actually. If you compare the Sikh massacrre in the 80’s and the Gujarat riots in 2002, there is a world of difference. The sikh masacre was far far worse than the Gujarat riots… and still the pereptrators got away with it. Today its just not possible.

    The difference is the rise of civil resistance. Many people have stood up against the Gujarat Government, and in particular one woman – Teesta Setalvad has show how to fight these a s s h ol es. She in some sense is the reason that Gujarat government could not get away with murder, as the congress government could. In fact I have consistently said this. However there is another way in which sadly the Delhi massacres are different from the 2002 pogrom. The first was an oppurtunistic and barbaric act by a party. No ideology was involved in it. However the 2002 act was a lab for the Hindutva ideology. It’s a warning as to what these guys would do if they ever come to power on their own.

    Finally, you misunderstand me. I have never justified the terror acts. I only said that to remove it or at least reduce it one has to understand why they act as they do. Many people here seem to think that the “root cause” is a book written in the 7th century. I think the answer lies in the modern world events.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Muslims are not permitted to serve in a Kufar’s army as per this

    http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/3885/military

    Military service in kaafir armies and working as a “chaplain” in those armies
    What is the ruling on Muslims serving in the military of non muslim country ? What is the evidence for its permissibility or prohibition?
    And lastly, what is the status of a Muslim working to help those in the military to fulfill their obligations to Allaah while serving in the Army, Navy, or whatever?

    Praise be to Allaah.

    We put this question to Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen, may Allaah preserve him, who answered as follows:

    “Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds. Military matters are problematic, because they involve helping these kuffaar to wage war against the Muslims or those who have entered into a treaty with the Muslims. If no such thing is involved, it may be advantageous for Muslims to work in these armies so as to learn their secrets and be aware of their potential evil. In other words, if working in these armies could be of benefit, it may be permissible, otherwise it is not allowed.”

    On this basis, if a person works as a preacher or daa’iyah or imaam or muezzin, serving the Muslims and calling non-Muslims to Islam, then there is nothing wrong with this.
    Islam Q&A
    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/14004/army

    It is not permissible for a Muslim to fight with kaafirs against the Muslims at all

    I work in the army of a non-Muslim state, and there are wars between them and the Muslims. What is the ruling if they send me with a division of this army to wage war against the Muslims? As a Muslim, my feelings are that I never want to fight against Muslims in any war.
    What should I do?
    What is the ruling if I go…?

    Praise be to Allaah.

    If you are sent to wage war against the Muslims, then it is not permissible for you to take part at all. Helping the kaafirs against the Muslims is a form of major kufr which puts one beyond the pale of Islam. Allaah says concerning one who supports the mushrikeen (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’, i.e., friends), then surely, he is one of them”[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

    With regard to how you may get out of this situation, and what excuse you can give to get out of this dilemma if it happens, we ask Allaah to help you, and we suggest that you consult some Muslims who have relevant knowledge or experience.

    We want to emphasize to you the necessity of finding other employment and of leaving service in the army of the kaafirs, because that implies helping them, strengthening them and increasing the numbers of their fighters and supporters – unless your work can bring some benefits to the Muslims, such as giving information and secrets of the kaafirs to the Muslims so as to help the Muslims, or if your work is purely da’wah, such as giving khutbahs and leading prayers for the Muslims in the kaafir army whilst also advising them to avoid any work that will strengthen the kaafirs. We ask Allaah to keep you safe from temptation and to give you a good end in this world and in the Hereafter.
    Islam Q&A
    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Sam,
    Firstly lets not forget that muslims in the Indian army are as patriotic as anyone else & have proved their spurs as recently as in Kargil.

    I had also pasted a link wherein none less than the vice president of the AIMPLB had asked his countrymen to either love India or leave India, you cannot get more direct can you.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/allahabad/Be-patriotic-or-quit-India/articleshow/5062864.cms

    Does this statement not indicate that in Islam loyalty to the country precedes everything else. I need not point out that the speaker is much better versed in Islamic fiq than people like us.

    Having said this, at the end of the day there is no point in trying to live our lives through guidance from old texts. We should learn from history, Christians faced the same dilemma as there are quite a lot of difficult chapters in the old testament. They simply ignored these & moved on. Thats what muslims should also be doing….

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Absolutely right Syed..

    Moderates like Arif Khan should be the leaders instead of these Maulavis; and that will happen only from a reformation. Until then, sunni Orthodoxy has to be controlled and eliminated

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    Cheers to that thought!

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sam
    The Indian army continues to be secular and as Syed points out, completely patriotic. I have pointed to the example of JK Light Infantry who acquitted themselves very well against Pakistan during Kargil war.
    To understand the genesis of the secular nature of the army, you might want to read Amitav Ghosh’s Glass Palace. Of course it is a work of fiction, but many of the incidents in the later part of the book set in the Malaya jungle rings true. Issue like divided loyalties are explored, but dispassionately.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    not to forget that the only case of an active military man, charged with terror was……colonel Purohit… I am sure he attended some islamic madarsa in his childhood, and no hindutva ideology had nothing to do with it.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I am asking what does the islamic religion say , what mullahs are saying?

    That is the most important thing forward.

    I am not asking what some (or most) muslim soldiers have done in the past.
    (it could have been done at a personal level and may be due to lack of knowledge about true islam)..

    With this islamic wave it will be stupid and ignorant not to know the undercurrents of thoughts going through a Muslim soldier.

    Either there is a statement by the religious bodies (all the way from Mecca/Medina) or there is some kind of lie detector test done daily,,,

    until then how can one identify muslim soldier turning into a Sudden Jihadi Syndrome (SJS)..

    It is easy for arm chair critics to say equality, religion,,peace.
    Just work with an armed muslim every day, 24hrs and just worry every minute where his gun is going to turned against ?

    Indian soldiers deserve some peace and should be able to count on their fellow soldiers.
    Right now with islamic jihadists everywhere, they cannot be sure about that..

  • Ashish

    @Syed @Gopi,
    In the last few days, I have visited websites that I have not done in my life (RSS) and now it looks like I should start reading books I have never read either ;-) like the Old Testament. My daughter tells me that there are very nice stories; perhaps the Horrible Histories series would be a good start. Any version you would recommend?
    I love the Catholic faith because they do not stop you from eating anything.. if you get my drift :-)

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    @Ashish
    Ashish, really like your sense of humour :)
    Jokes aside, here is a link giving info. on the old testament (my apologies Gopi).

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html

    But seriously, some time back I had a long discussion with a Christian turned atheist. As per him Christianity has not changed per se. In his words “Christianity has been defeated” (by Christians). This is the route muslims need to take.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    that is truly profound.
    Thanks for the link. So, looks like the original Kill, Kill, Kill stuff!
    I think Horrible Histories will be better as timepass.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I thought that was old news. The old testament is one of the most violent books ever written. Thats true for most books written 1000 years back, incidentally. The fact is that most people have always acted upon their own innate moral values, and so they interpret texts as it suits them. Its true for Christians, Jews, Hindus and Atheists.

    Religious teaching has very little impact on moral behaviour of people. Being buddhists has not stopped Srilankans killing tamils, has it?

    There will always be nuts, who go for a literal reading, but i believe they are few in number.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Not true. We cannot interpret anyway we want, because it is God’s utterings, and no man in between.

    And, in our case, the nuts are not few in number. It is 100%, with 20% people, may be at 5% nutness; and 20% people with 90% plus more nutness.

    As for moral values or immoral values – 90% try to live according to the Text.

    However, since the Text does not cover everything, the crafty ones has a lot of freedom to do stuff and “not get caught ” by God. Why do you think we have more smugglers and fake notes dealers in my community? There are God’s rules, and man’s rules.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    “Nutness”..
    .. priceless :-)

    Singh S Reply:

    Mr Boby

    How can you say most of the books written 1000 years ago were violent?

    From an Indian perspective, two of the oldest and most read books, Ramayana and Mahabharatha, do not preach violence, other than having war between man and man in a contextual reference. There is no mention of God either.

    Is there a “book” for Atheists?

    And I did not understand “Even Budhists…”. Budhists are non-vegetarians. Plus, what do you think they should have done against the Tamil secessionists/terrorists? Yield to them? Negotiations did not work.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “From an Indian perspective, two of the oldest and most read books, Ramayana and Mahabharatha, do not preach violence, other than having war between man and man in a contextual reference. There is no mention of God either.”

    Well its littered with war of man and god. Devas and asuras, and vishnu taking avatars to kill asuras and to help the gods-Indra in particualr, and how indra killed one asura after another, probably a poetic rendering of the wars of those ages.

    Then again the books are filled with caste violence, read manusmriti. and the treatment to be given to shudras and women.

    One example of terrorism is from the Ramayana, when Hanuman burns the whole of Lanka, which obviously means burns civilians in Lanka , for the crimes of the king- Ravana.

    There are also stories of how Rama puts a shudra, who dared to do tapasya to death. There are plenty actually.

    “Is there a “book” for Atheists?”

    Atheists were mentioned in the context of having a innate morality.

    “Even Budhists…”

    I meant that though the Buddha taught compassion, look at what the srilankan buddhists did.

    “Plus, what do you think they should have done against the Tamil secessionists/terrorists? Yield to them? Negotiations did not work…”

    I am not talking of the LTTE, did i even mention them? I meant the crimes against the tamil population, before the LTTE became a force. You can read about it in a lot of places. If you want references I can give it to you as well, but if you go to a good library, you will find good books on the srilankan civil war, and it’s reasons.

    Of course for that you will have to do the crime of actually asking the dreaded and evil question: “what were the root causes ? ” So No! maybe you should not go to a library and read.

    S Singh Reply:

    Dear Mr Boby

    Thanks for your advice to go to a “good” library.

    So, for you, if I interpret you right, Ramayana and Mahabharatha are violent books because they describes wars.

    “Innate morality” is only for people/countries that never fight a war? Or, it has to be approved as a just war by some consortium???

    The liberals and leftists always bring up Manusmruthi. Does anybody read it? Does any Indian (Hindu) home keep it as they keep Mahabharatha or Ramayana? It will remain a foyer for the leftists. By the way, does it take an advocacy position for violence or just a listing of rules and punishments? Great philosoophers like Neiztsche have found the reasoning and argument attractive and fascinating. So, is he a lesser of a philosopher or a violent philospher?

    Sri Lankans may have killed more Sinhalese in their first “leftist” (southern) civil war than the later Tamil war. And the northern Tamil problem is squarely created by Tamils. Tamils held key governmental poistions, business poistions, and all upper echelons of the society (because British colonial masters wanted it that way to control the majority trouble making Sinhalese). After independence, Sinhalese slowly started “majority” rule, declared Sinahlese as the official language. This started the seccessionist movement which with Pirabhakaran turned into violence recriting child soldiers and inventing suicide bombing.

    What Ceylon did during the first Southern civil war and as Sri Lanka during the later Tamil Seccessionist rebellion is what any country who is concerned about its territorial integrity would have done. I wish our political leaders were like that.

    Ashish Reply:

    and those innate moral values fell from trees..

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “and those innate moral values fell from trees..”

    they are hard wired in the human brain… as modern science seems to suggest.

    Ashish Reply:

    but intelligence, initiative and resultant achivement is not due to individually “hardwired” brains, but the circumstances of one’s birth .. really Bobby, get a life!

    Bobby Reply:

    “achievement” is the result of intelligence, initiative and the circumstances of one’s birth….not necessarily in that order.

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Ashish
    You have misinterpreted. The organisation has complained that the Police is communal and is not allowing them to carry out ISLAMIC ACTIVITIES.

    It is time for all Indians whether Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and SECULAR Hindus to stand up against oppression, force the law enforcement machinery to shed its communal character, uphold our current Constitution and ensure that these ISLAMIC ACTIVITIES are freely carried out.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    We have so many things to fix in this country…
    the Police, Supreme Court..
    No, I did not mis-interpret. Precisely to further the NOBLE CAUSE you have highlighted, Venkaiah should be arrested.. for daring to suggest that police act to STOP ISLAMIC ACTIVITIES.
    See how deep is the rot; all along we were thinking only Narendra Modi and Advani need to be hanged…
    busy, busy, busy…

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    I would be happy if it were merely lack of capacity, but unfortunately that is not the case, at any rate, not in case of Home grown Jihad.

    It is the WILL, of course the Secular Media helps.

    About Kerala, I had mentioned some time back, that the Jihadis have taken God’s own country, too literally, but good that you pointed out, the god I meant was Allah (no language barriers)

    About the educational institutes being opened in Kerala the situation could be better. I remember (not sure) that some new Madarsa (I think secular ? Education is also included) was planning to hold. Competitive entrance exams, so certainly there is big demand supply issue.

    Demand for new district, new state or new country need to be seen as natural outcome of people’s desire for MORE DEMOCRACY leading to self governance. The only practical problem I foresee is in defining a criteria, on the basis of which a group’s demand for self governance can be recognized and implemented. Whether it should be at state level? Or caste level, (at the level of religion it is already well recognized) why not city level or colony wise, or a more scientific criteria say, for every 10000 people to begin with?

    If we Indians can agree on a principle now, many people would whole heartedly support every movement for independence or self governance including their own. The way things are, I won’t be surprised, that some years down the line, there might be new separatist movements seeking the right to be ruled by the Laws of India (the current one). That would be a really nice proposition when you have to choose between a Caliphate or dictatorship of proletariat. Of course for such a movement to succeed, adequate provision for celestial babes will be needed. How many per head? May be a dozen or so, or let it be decided through a UN supervised referendum, or alternatively, proposals for cost effective logistics solutions may be invited from interested parties before a decision is made.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @Gopi
    For the sake of variety you can also add some exotic combinations such as Muslims from:
    - South Africa fighting oppression in Bangladesh,
    - Pakistan, Indian figting oppression in Spain,
    - Libyan, Egypt in Italy,
    - China in Afpak,
    - Lebanon in Argentina
    I stop here for lack of interest

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    And Muslims from Uyghar joining Muslims in Assam to bestow Assam, WB to Bengla Desh.
    (I did see on a blog where the guy said why Assam and West bengal should go to Bengla Desh.)

    In this conncetion, I read an excellent analysis (by a Western professor, if i remeber right) about the two planes the radicals/and not so radicals operate. “The theory of conquest” and the “theory of religion”. Carving out a district is the first step to eventually ask for carve out and sepaartion from the country. The professor has analyzed and said territories have been put together through this strategy – get a small location or district, get special rights , create more “separation” (make the other community mad, and cry again and seek solace in “togetehrness”, slowly ask for secession (“we are different and you dont want us anyway”) . So, Dar Al Islam get created through two parallel processes–through whining and “soft” progarms like establishing a beachhold and peacefully working out over a time epriod, and then of course through Jehadism.

    So, when we say “illiterate”, “ignorant” Mullahs and uneducated populace, t”hey” all must be laughing at us!

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Terrorism update – I am glad about Bhatt’s son involvement

    I am in a way glad that Mahesh Bhatt’ son is connected with the two Pakistani Americans arrested by FBI in connection with potential (and past) Islamic terrorist activities .

    I ‘hope” his connection is more than finding/renting an apartment for these guys… Mahesh and his secularism!

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Don’t know much about Mahesh Bhatt but what’s wrong with his secularism?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    His problem is that unlike many others, he speaks out against the hindutva morons…which PMTF do not like.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish,
    Actually as far as violence, gender discrimination etc. are concerned the quran cannot hold a candle to the old testament. But that’s besides the point, the aim is not to denigrate any religion as that does not really lead to anything.
    What interests me is the fact that Christians who follow a book which is more violent than the quran are pretty enlightened & peaceful.

    So what can be the reason- some genetic difference between christians & muslims? or something more?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “What interests me is the fact that Christians who follow a book which is more violent than the quran are pretty enlightened & peaceful….”

    very interesting… I wonder where u got that from? lets see… may be you mean the great pacifist Geroge Bush I guess. …hmm Hitler? or the genocide of the native Indians … or perhaps the benign colonial rule??

    Lets do something….lets tabulate the crimes commited by muslims in the 21st century, and those by “christians”… how about that? My thesis is that its exactly the opposite of what you are saying. And no, its not becuase muslims are more benign than christians…its got to do with distribution of power.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    why only for 21st century.

    go all the way upto 6/7th century.

    islam wins in a big way, in the contest of “who kills the most Kafirs”..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mohammad shames Hitler anyday as Quran shames any nazi literature.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Rajeev
    I have not read any NAzi literature but I have read both the quran and old testament. The old testament is much much more violent. But that is besides the point.

    The relevant issue is how have the Christians managed to made their scriptures largely irrelevant while muslims are still trying for a literal reading.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Let me ask pretty dumb question first.. I am extremely “catholic” in my irreligiousity ..
    don’t know nothin’ of nothin’.
    Don’t Christians follow the New Testament more than the old and is that as violent / full of nutty stuff as well?

    As to your question, seriously! How can it be genetics? If it were, I would say Muslims are a problem. They are not. It is Islam and the absolutism (take me whole or take none of me) that it preaches through its interpreters (Mullahs) that is a problem.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Syed

    Actually one reason only; the role of Quran in a Muslim’s life vs whatever books others follow or not follow, as well as the compulsory religious (means Quranic) education starting very early in life.

    There is no divide between “us” vs “them” in any of the other systems.. All are God’s children in Christianity; it is “Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavandu; Om Shanti Shnati Shanti” in Hindus.. Same with Budhists. There are no God’s laws, but only suggestions on righteous lives. However, as you know, there are only God’s laws for Msulims, and the Islamic terrorists want to overturn all of man’s laws and bring in God’s laws.

    Hitler did not kill for Christian religion. Bush did not fight a war for Christian victory. Unfortunately, be in Pakistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and all over, the rage is to bring back the “true” Islam back. In India also, the objective is this; although several other reasons are given as a cover.

    As you know, all are not God’s children in Islam.The believer/infidel, Dar al Islam/Dar Al Harb , Ummah, absolvement of personal to the collective, Umma – all these create a sense of separation and exclusiveness. As you said somewhere else, the “feeding” of Mullahs by the government further increases this separateness; eventually exploding into wanting to be totally separate and intolerant.

    I have indicated many a time in tehese blogs that the Kerala Christian model can be a very attractive model for a “foreign” religious minority. Kerala christians have integrated well, contributed significantly, pursued learning, excelled in business, politics, education etc etc still preserving whatever religious uniqueness they have. They have a thriving religion (five of them). Their church sermons are in Malayalam, bibles are in Malayalam, they dress like any body else, put sindoor or sandal paste, long before there was a BJP in the scene. They celebrate Onam, in fact they are the leaders in organizing Onam celebrations and Malayalam teaching among Keralites overseas. Muslims, even in Kerala, are not integrated in a community sense, although they do not live in different areas or segregated slums.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Bobby
    Well, by “enlightened” I meant the level of scientific and technical development. I do not see any contest here between the Christian & muslim world.

    About “peaceful” I will not classify America as a Christian country. Here their god is money & only money. They are as “firm as you can get” supporters of THE most corrupt country in the world – The Al Saud Dynasty which I directly blame for the mess in the Islamic world. They are against Iran ever since Iran nationalized its oil industry under mossadegh……..etc. etc.

    The true representative of the Christian world would be the European union which is very peaceful by any yardstick .

    Going back into history & not just the 21 century you are spot on, there is no argument that Christianity has been responsible for the deaths of many more people than Islam.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    I guess its an interesting question, as to how and why the rennaisance happened in Europe. I am sure historians are studying these questions.

    Just one point, about the European union being more of a representative of christianity, why do you say so? I think the US is far more religious than Europe is. The number of Atheists in Europe is much more than in the US.

    Moreover Europe is very peaceful since the last fifty years, after playing war games with each other and others, and practically destroying each other and the rest of the world.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Bobby,
    See, both US & europe are culturally, christian, atheists or believers are irrelevant (if you get what i am saying). To explain, there is not much difference culturally between say a hindu atheist or a hindu believer, other things being the same. The culture is hindu.
    In the US, you have more atheists in its northern areas & more practising christians in its south (Bush’s main support base).

    That being said, I do not consider the US as very representative of christianity because its polity is entirely different from europe, nothing more important than money or its various avatars (oil).

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    What does being culturally Christian mean? An Indian Christian would be culturally much closer to an Indian hindu than an American christian.

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    Would an american hindu be be culturally alike to an american christian? I do not think so..

    Bobby Reply:

    “Would an American hindu be be culturally alike to an american christian?..”

    A white American Hindu would be far more similar culturally to an American christian, than to an Indian Hindu. Lets look at the case of the American actor Richard Gere, a Buddhist. Would you not agree he has more similarities culturally to American christians, than to Asian Budhists?

  • SKS Mumbai

    From Mr REHAN Above

    Quote :Hidden Intentions can not justify horrendous Actions/Crime (Gunah) in front of the Law and SHARIAH IS A CONSTITUTION AND THE LAW. Intentions will be judged by Allah in the Aakhirah (Life hereafter). Unquote

    SHARIAH is a CONSTITUTION and the LAW? (Now see how I distort his views to suit my position)

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Dear K
    Look at this link explaining the SCIENTIFIC BASIS used by Secular Historians for clubbing of Sanskrit with Indo-European Languages
    http://india_resource.tripod.com/indian-languages.html

    Author : Mr Shishir Thadani, Undergraduate degree from IIT Delhi, Post-Graduate degree in Computer Science from Yale where his area of specialization included Theoretical Computer Science, the Syntax and Semantics of Computer Langauges and Natural Language Processing.

    I don’t know how is this author classified by the Secular Historians of India, but there are no prizes if you guess it right.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Terrorism Update: The Muslim Major’s connection with Pakistan:

    Michael McCaul. the ranking member of the US Congressional Committee on Homeland Security, stated yesterday that the Muslim killer of his “fellow” (?) thirteen army soldiers had sent multiple wire transfers to Pakistan. He said nobody will be surprised about the wire destination; however, he did not reveal it.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Syed is right that government should bypass institions like Darul Uloom and introduce programs direct to the Muslim people.

    Deobandis are now considered by the right wing ( “real”) Muslims as “Sufis” – one can imagine the level of hatred and total exclusivity these people must be possessing, if they think Deobandis are soft. My recommendation to the Govt is to spy on all these, (and may even ignore Deobandis!).

    The war that is being waged in Pakistan is to restore the land of the pure, and more. Using the Book of 700s, the hard core believers want to eatablish a country as it was in 700s.

    The liberals will be amiss if they think the Book is nothing, and only peripheral to Muslims.. They just do not know the level of indoctrination starting with a young ag, and the centarlity of it in daily life..

    The end objective of Islamists and Islamic terrorism is to create a totalitarian state. The totalitarian leaders are operating behind when a bomb explodes in Hyderabad or a train is set on fire inGodhra. Modi is a foyer that they will use for a long. time to come.. They want more Modis; and will create incidents to create more Modis. Liberals will focus on Modis when the totalitarians can go on hatching their plans.

    As SKS said the longer India takes to settle on “one land, one rule”; the more divisive problems we will face and the more opportunities these totalitarian Muslims will have to create havoc. The number one problem facing the world today – Muslim countries, India, West , Africa all over – is the Islamists and Islamic terrorism. Indian coddling of it under injustice and illiteracy will be ignoring the biggest thtreat at our own peril.

    A ‘reformation” happening in Islam is quite remote, because of the near total control mullahs and maulavis have on the common Muslim, right from the age of 4 or 5. Hence it is mutant; and no reformation is possible. So, what can countries and people do to control/minimize/eliminate the Islamic terrorism

    - No mercy on terrorists and terror training centers; killing/destroying preferably as a joint initiative by multiple countries banded together
    - Ensure madaris curriculum are modernized; and monitor their activities. Liberals will shout and cry; the threat to the country is significant if they are left on their own. LeT, according to a French report last week, is no more a Pakisatn-based anti KAshmir/India outfit; it is now a worldwide outfit. It is conceivable that Pakistan left Saeed scots free because the authorities may know the extent of LeT reach and the fear of them unleashing a total war against Pakistan within PAkistan and outside.
    - As Syed said, implememnt programs directly for the people bypassing the Mulalhs.
    - Muslim moderates should take leadership roles in the commmunity. The spokespersonsare for Muslims are always Mullahs, whether on TV, or ptint media.

    In a “one country, one rule”, one of the first recommenadtions I will suggest is what TMr Thomas has alluded elsewhere here – that students can join religious training institutions only after the 10th grade. That will significantly reduce the madrasa induced hatred and terrorism, because kids are not under the clutches of the Mullahs; and when they start Quran tarining they will be at a better readiness to analyze and interpret than the rot learning indu-ced when they are young.

    The reason is one (Quran). The solutions are limited. The threat is real and imminent. It is for all- Muslims and non-Muslims to anticipate and prepare and prevent. Pakistan is not far away; and its people are no different from our people.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    Well, the new testament follows the old (obviously). You can take both as different chapters of a book. You need to read the old to fully understand the new. I think the new was written after Christ.
    To answer your quesion, the new testament is not violent like the old (i dont know why). Like your daughter found, both have lots of very nice stories. Noah ark, good Samaritan…

    Christians are doing the right thing in cherry picking and teaching only the “good” parts of their scriptures.

    You might recall, I had suggested that religion be made a compulsory subject (maybe combined with say civics & history). The intention was that muslims (and others) be taught only about the good aspects of Islam in their formative years and to preempt them from learning from mullas who would also teach them the negative aspects.

    The other issues we can discuss later…

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Christians are doing the right thing in cherry picking and teaching only the “good” parts of their scriptures….”

    Like all normal people do.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Ya, normal people will do that. But we cannot. No removing or not reciting segments.
    Christians started this after reformation; we need a reformation; but that will not nhappen for obvious reasons.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    who cares about reformation in islam ?

    as long they argue/fight among themselves and others are not affected by that

  • Sam

    Shia leader calls for Muslims to quit Kafir’s army..

    The Iranian Supreme Leader’s representative in Britain has told Muslim servicemen and women to quit the Armed Forces, saying that their involvement in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is “”forbidden by Islam “”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/iranian-top-dogs-rep-misunderstands-islam-tells-muslims-to-quit-british-armed-forces.html

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sam

    Shias will never be a match for the venom orthodox sunnis are spewing. Actually, the famous nseminaries and universities of Shias in Qum are considered “world class” from a philosophy studies perspective.

    Sistani is like any “learned” men of any other faiths.

    And it is also a fact they have not “suicide bombed” in other countries. I will not put Nasrullah as a terrorist; neither Hezbollah and Fata as a terrorist organization.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Then why are people getting killed by stoning in Shia;s iran..
    (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm)

    Iranian Shias are just late by just 20-30 yrs to the Meccan Saudis.

    Wait another 20 yrs and they will match or exceeed Wahabbists..

    Iran’s president made a statement that holocaust never happened, israel should be wiped out..
    (even wahabbists did not go to that extent..)

    so they are going in the
    “who’s islam is the purest, who is purer ” contest already.
    once the contest speeds up, there is no turning point..

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sam

    Iranian President is a cuckooo. he also said there are no homosexuals in Iran, and that homosexuality is a western decadent lifestyle stuff.

    He has to project an “ultra conservative” and aggressive position with the US because of their nuclear politics. Also, as you know,, US supported Iraq against Iran in the eight year war of 80s .

    Iranians have a proud Persian history in addition to their Islamic history. Sufism started there.

    Yes, there are crazy Mullahs, but the whole country is not full of them like that unlike KSA. Plus the youngsters (which constiturte 75% population) are for change; the recent uprising was suppressed by the army and the revolutionary guards.

    I do not think they will fund and export the totalitarian terrorists to explode in distant lands. They will definitely play in their sandbox with countries of their interest, such as Lebanon, Palestine. The “Israeli” position is taken just to snub KSA. KSA is really scared of Iran, they think Iran is taking away the leadership of all Muslims (Sunnia nd Shia). The victory IHezbullah had against Israel two years ago really turtned many Muslims, who were demoralized by all the losing wars against israel, to look upon Iran, although Shite.

    ISI/Pakistan is also scared of Iran.

    Sam, Reply:

    Gopi,,
    I hope you are right sometime in the future
    but let me tell you currently you are wrong.

    in islam, the constant game is “who is the purest muslim”.

    this is played all the time and with different intensities.

    personally dealt with multiple iranians of all different kinds.
    the underlying islamic currents are deeply embedded in their pscyhe and this game of
    “purest muslim” will be played for a long time, until someone wins.

    If the game is just limited to theological discussions, debates..that is fine.
    but islam allows jihad and violence to subjugate infidels.
    so you declare everyone else (who do not agree with you) as infidels.
    that allows to kill even fellow muslims..

    look at pakistan..
    declare Ahamadiyyas as non-muslims.
    iran declares bahai should be persecuted…

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Syed

    “What is the reason for viiolence — any genetic diff between Muslims and Christians…alhough christian book is more violent”…..

    Syed, as you know Islam does not consider all as God’s (Allah’s) children; only Muslims are His children.. As you have articulated elsewhere, Mullahs indoctrinate hatred in impressionable minds at an early age. The constant beaming of Believers/Infidels, Dar-al-Islam/dAr-al-Harb, Ummah all create separatism and exclusivity. This combined with the Govt’s pleasing Mullahs all the time create further isolation and hatred. Globalization and other’s progress further turn them more into the violent religion to bring back the centuries old time of the Prophet.

    Christianity (modern) does not impose anything other than the run of the mill preachings as love thy neihghbor, help the poor, love all etc. Hindus end all their prayers with “Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavandu, Shanti, Shanti, Shanti”. Similar thing with Budhists. But in Islam, every day, there is a reminder of how to live according to the prophet five times a day. There is no God, but Allah.. Others do not pump God in, and it is a private “dialogue’; not a communal relationship..

    And, as you know, the religious Muslim has to live this life; for God’s rules are the only rules.

    People like you have to take the leadership away from Mullahs.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SAm
    You also believe in cherry picking but of the negative variety. If you want to go by the scriptures, fine, quote me any scripture which you do not like and I will quote you its opposite.
    Lets start with the concept of Umma which you have mentioned earlier & the divided loyalities of muslims. To make things easier for myself I am just pasting a link.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Shias-seek-valid-translation-of-Vande/articleshow/5231809.cms

    Pl do not miss to read the last sentence.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    if you want to debate scriptures, please pick someone other than me.

    Please argue with your fellow muslim mollahs in saudi, pakistan, deoband, taliban first.
    Convince them that they are “misunderstanding islam” and that they say is cherry picking…

    once you convince them, please debate with Kaffirs..

    until then please stop killing kaffirs and infidels..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    “If it means salutation to the motherland we are all for it as Islamic “hadees” (hadith) clearly says “hubbul watan min al imaan” (love for motherland is the gist of religion). ”

    why cant AISPLB get a translation themselves.

    What has the President of india got to do with this translation..
    Is the President in the translation business ?

    is it just a delaying tactic,

    Looks like another ploy, claiming everything, but never saying where they are all the time.

    To muslims and deobandis, they can claim that they are not yet supporting Vandemataram and to gullible secularists/hindus they can claim that they are already accepting it.

    so they want to win this propaganda while portraying criticizers as anti-secular, religious-hatred….vested interests…

    ======================

    Why cant they give a fatwa, if a muslim soldier can serve in the infidel army while fighting the islamic republic of pakistan…

    that is more important, than some one singing or not singing ..

    what about the Shia cleric from Iran’s fatwa i posted before ? is that right, or will a fatwa be issued for his head for misrepresenting islam ?

    [Reply]

  • syed

    1) What makes you think I am not debating with “fellow muslims mollas” My time here is not even 0.1% of my life!
    2) I have not killed any kafir or infidel & i am not responsible for what other muslims do.
    3) You paste some link on a halfassed irani mulla from some hate website and hold him up as representative of the world shia community despite knowing fully well the legitimacy enjoyed by the mullas in Iran. I can also waste my time on the internet &get some webpage out of billions, on hindu rightists spewing hate and hold it as representative of all hindus in India.

    But my friend, I’ve got better things to do with my life.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    this

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Shias-seek-valid-translation-of-Vande/articleshow/5231809.cms

    means nothing to me.

    It is understood in politics, that you do not say things clearly or with ambigiuity..

    i will put this statement in the same category..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Did that Shia cleric from Iran make that statement or not ?

    If he did, was it misrepresented ?

    if not please, please tell him,
    You are not going to be succesful in killing the messenger who is posting this link..(or the website where it is reported first… while the so called secularists are sleeping..)

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    I do not know whether the shia cleric made that statement or not.

    But I do know that in Iran, the politicians are the clerics and as you have said – quote – It is understood in politics, that you do not say things clearly or with ambigiuity..i will put this statement in the same category..unquote.

    [Reply]

  • Raju kurien

    Zia/nobody has addressed whether there is any need for Madrasas.

    Why does GOI snot shut down Madrasas and start normal schools in its place? Especially if madrasas breed terrorists?

    Would not Muslims like a school that prepares them for college/jobs?

    Are they missing the train by focusing on all these c–p like madrasa, headgear, right to grow beard etc?

    Why do they even have to issue an order about what other Muslims can do or not? What is the big deal if a muslim wants to sing Vande Mataram or Long live Bengla, or whatever

    And why is govt involved/talking with these mullahs? Are they talking with bishops, temple priests, Budhist monks?

    And why all these “minority” stuff now ? Muslism were always minority.So, what was the rush after independence to label them (and others) minority? They were minority even when Moguls etc were ruling. Did post-independence India screw up by labeling people majority/minority with the result that nobody is happy with the underlying dynamics? Will there be bloodshed now if everything operates based on a single platform like in Singapore?

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @syed
    To claim that Islam is against the concep of nation state hardly requires cherry picking. Remember it is not about what Islamic states do in actual practice. Just a small list of artciles explaining the how Islam looks at Nationalism.

    http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/

    http://yahyasheikho786.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/nationalism-islam-a-must-read-study-haqeeqat-org/

    http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss94.htm

    The closest that comes to reconclling islam and nationalism is the article written by Mr Asghar Ali Engineer, who actually says there is no other way.

    Incidentally CNN is now showing GPS on Mumbai Terror, see how they are told killing one jew is equal to killing other 50 all in the name of God.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @SKS
    Reg jews, I think Iran has the largest population of Jews in the Gulf (apart from Israel). Please tell how many jews have been killed there.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    how many jews were kicked out of Arab countries ?
    How many jews are there in Mecca/Medinah ? (they were there before Mo proclaimed religious apartheid).
    Jews are not even permitted to visit their anscestral places in Mecca/medina..as per some religious apartheid of some arab moon god.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SKS
    Firstly personally even I am against the concept of a nation state not because I am a muslim but because I do not believe in differences on the basis of countries, races and religion.

    Coming to the post, you give 3 links – someone by the name of Ali Mohd. Naqui, someone’s personal blog & an article by Asghar Engineer & very conveniently ignore what kalbe sadiq has said (love the country or leave it) & the hadith I have given through my last link – love for motherland is the gist of religion-, because it does not fit in with your worldview of Islam. Let me tell you – for every scripture you can give me, I can give you another scripture saying the exact opposite.

    Coming to the ground situation – just how much Umma feelings do Indian muslims have. Put aside the political talk of the muslim “leadership” and the internet for a minute. Do Indian muslims bother about kashmiri, palestanian, afghani or iraqi muslims. Do you see demonstrations in India when these muslims are killed, does it become, even fleetingly, a political issue. How many Indian muslims do you know who have gone for jehad to wazirstan, Afghanistan, Iraq….

    But unfortunately it seems I can never be right as you conveniently pick or ignore whatever suits you.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    @syed
    you do surprise me. Do you seriously think that Islam is not incompatible with Nationalism ? Or that Muslims who consider Islam and nationalism incompatible, are a small minority ? (May be SHIAS do, I don’t know that specifically.

    I gave only three links because I didn’t have the patience of adding all. If you want, you may do a Google search on ISLAM and Nationalism, and see the results for yourself.

    About the Hadith, hubbul watan min al imaan, I found very few sites in English which dealt with this. In one case, one of the commentators claimed this Hadith was invented by Lawrence of Arabia and another one said, it can’t be true, because that would make us same as Non-Muslims ! Yup exactly

    Yes Mr. Kalbe Sadiq has given his position unambiguously but his statements do not clarify whether it was his view or it is what Islam says. Even if he did give enough references from Quran, it does not change the fact that there are large numbers of Muslims who think that ISLAM is incompatible with nationalism. I reiterate I am not talking about how most of Muslims actually live or what the Islamic countries actually do.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    islam is

    NOT COMPATIBLE with

    nation state
    secular state
    gender equality
    religious equality

    It permits
    religious aparthied (look at rules in Mecca/Medina)
    slave ownership
    death upon leaving islam
    taqiyya
    mutta marriages (prostitution basically)
    misyar marriages (prostituion basically)

    .
    .
    .

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SKS
    Actually i feel nationalism is an overrated concept in today’s age.

    Regarding the scriptures, like i said before, you can get the opposite of most of anything in the same books, so what’s the importance of scriptures?

    Finally you have pointed out, the important thing is what muslims think ie, Islam is incompatible with nationalism. Here I would differ from you. – Ultimately what is important is how muslims actually live their lives. What they think or what their scriptures say is not important.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    you are saying can negate anything with some other part of the scripture…
    basically anybody can claim anything, which means no one knows where the Koran really stands.

    this is ideal for double tongued politicians and now i understand why muslims can be beleiving in lot of conspiracy theories (because anyone can say anything, without proving anything)..

    imagine the confustion if we have similar quality for a book of laws, or constitution.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Precisely.

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    please fix it for the miunderstanders of Islam and tell them what your version of islam is.
    I am sure, you will laughed at by your fellow jihadist muslims.
    (please start with jihadis first..
    dont do your taqiyya with infidels..)

    S Singh Reply:

    @Syed

    I do agree how one lives is more important. However, as you know, the Scripture plays a central role in the lives of Muslims — all aspects of their lifves being guided by the Book. So, the issue becomes whether they can live independent of Quran (more like Christians,Hindus, Budhists etc? ie take broad concepts (such as lead a good life etc ) but it does not have the centarlity..

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    we dont care if they live as per the scripture as long as they dont kill infidels/Kafirrs

    the problem is with the scripture which says kill the infidels..
    subjugate them,
    levy jizya
    give 2 woman = 1 man in court,
    woman should wear burkha..

    the source of the problem is koran..

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @S Singh
    In this case (issue of Ummah) muslims are indeed living independently of the quran, not only in India but throughout the world.

    Again, as I have said before, the quran & hadith contradict themselves – saying one thing & then saying the opposite, so what does one follow? Why are shias, who follow the same book, different? To a large extent because they choose to follow a different set of hadith or a different interpretation.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @S Singh
    As far as the concept of Ummah is concerned, muslims do not follow their scriptures, thats all i am saying.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @syed
    Islamic ideal of UMMAH will be achieved only when all agree to take Shariah as the constitution. Till then how muslims live is more a matter of compulsion and also because of sheer impractability of the Islamic ideal. But to say Muslims diasgree with those ideals is a stretch

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @SKS
    There are many muslim countries in the world following Sharia. How many of them follow the cncept of Ummah? Not even one!

    [Reply]

    Sam, Reply:

    then why are muslims all over the world going on jihad to so many infidel countries ?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.vitamin-water.net Vitamin Water :

    Christian Books is the stuff i like coz i alway read the bible and i am a very religious person ,

    [Reply]

  • http://salestrainingsydney.searchenginecourse.com.au/ sales training sydney

    He can only make appearances in highly secure areas. No way he can speak outside.

    [Reply]

  • http://androidappsi.blogspot.com/2011/08/picsay-pro-apk.html picsay pro apk

    I like Your Article about Jamiat: One step forward, two steps backward : They Call Me Muslim Perfect just what I was searching for! .

    [Reply]

  • http://androidappsi.blogspot.com/2011/08/spirit-hd-apk.html Spirit HD Apk

    I agree with your Jamiat: One step forward, two steps backward : They Call Me Muslim, excellent post.

    [Reply]

  • http://%/zzzqtfe00 Hehmer

    Great…

    love your blog, http://bethann.blogfa.com/ ,Thanks again….

  • http://%/zzzqtfe23 kanders

    Hello…

    My life,vist ithttp://www.musocity.com/blog/rawsonl/2/ ,Thanks….

  • http://%/zzzqtfe21 TadWinetts

    Hello…

    My life,vist ithttp://www.protectiamediului.org/membri/deborahr/profile/ ,Thanks….

  • http://www.sonicyouth.com/ Kim Gordon

    “prices that are unbeatable because of cheap labour, capital, energy and land – could be coming to an end.”

    Energy in China is expensive like in most of the world.
    Land is expensive in China. It would be cheaper to acquire land for a factory in many parts of the US (e.g. South Carolina) than China.
    Labour in China is cheaper than in first world countries of course but China has a per capita GDP higher than 100 countries so labour I assume would be cheaper in most of those 100 countries.

    There are about 100 countries that are cheaper than China so cheapness is not why China has become a leading exporter.

    Of the 100 or so countries that are poor or relatively poor can you name a single one other than China that has plenty of smooth roads, constant electricity, and uncongested ports? None. Not a single one. China is the only relatively poor country in the world with very good organizational skills. And it is for that reason that I predict China will be the only country of the bottom 100 of the world that will emerge as a first world country.

    -CoverI
    http://chinaoverindia.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    i am 69 now.from early childhood untill now i am noticing pakistani hatered for india.like injured snake pakistan is puting a (dang) into the back of india.india is so much intoxicated with these (dangs) that it feels pleasure to get hurt by pakistani gundas and again and again.i just can not understand this.i am absolutely puzzled.every body is talking about trade with pakistan.some even talk about border opening and that is another chance for more hafizs to sneak in to india and bomb our institutions.good luck india.

    [Reply]

  • Gyan

    PM should not have met Zardari, as this wasn’t his political visit. It was just a pilgrim tour. India is a emotional fool, expecting lot of things from a loser.

    [Reply]

  • Gt12563

    We know Mr.Zaradari has no real power and he is living on the mercy of so called strong army man Kayani.He lives always in fear that coup can happen any time and just collecting corrupt money more and more.After becoming President Mr.10% rate has gone up.He did nothing good for his people and they are fed from his adminstration and want change.But for India there is no hope to resolve any of issue with this PPP president.My guess is his days seems to be over.

    [Reply]

  • Abu Ahmed

    Some in Pakistan like the LeT and many others are beasts; like our very own Sangh Parivar goupies viz the Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene etc etc.. We cannot kill those beasts, for that would mean killing millions. So the next best thing to do is try to tame them. Now this taming of the beast business is a very long drawn, time consuming and patience-testing one. One has to weild the stick as well as dangle the carrot before them. This is how the US is dealing with Pakistan – culling as well as carassing the target population. One cannot boycott or remain ignorant of a next door neighbour – whatever happens over there impacts us too like earthquakes, floods or cyclones as well as bouts of violence and incidence of extreme poverty and ill-health. Therefore PM Singh is handling the neighbours with the right amount of carassing – we always do the culling when required while calling ourselves peaceful (thats our Chankayaneeti – when our atomic-bomb tests are successful we encode it by declaring the incidence as Buddha smiled – how deadly can be this Buddha’s smile is not hidden from any body). So trade, culture and sports are the tools of taming that we have to use – and when push comes to shove then the Pakistanis have learnt it the hard way many a times that we can beat the shit out of them. Deal with Pakistan from a position of power and strength and yet in a tolerant manner – for that is the way to tame the beast.

    [Reply]

  • payday loans

    payday loans…

    payday loans…

  • free bitcoins onion

    [...]always a {big|large|huge|massive|major|significant} fan of linking to bloggers that I {love|adore|really like|enjoy|appreciate|like} but {don’t|do not|really don’t} get {a lot|a great deal|a whole lot|a good deal|quite a bit|lots} of link {love…

    [...]just beneath, are a lot of entirely not associated sites to ours, on the other hand, they are certainly worth going over[...]…