Now for a war on error



If Muslim-perpetrated terror creates Islamophobia; smart counter-insurgency should be able to purge it (by eliminating terrorism). Abusive counter-terrorism on the other hand fuels more terror and, therefore, more Islamophobia. Muslims clearly have more at stake in the war on terror than others do.

When coordinated explosions ripped Delhi on September 13, 2008, people, regardless of their faith, retreated into their shells in fear.  Five days later, when police shot dead two suspected terrorists — at Delhi’s Batla House on September 19 — one section of the people erupted in anger and protests, while another had fear struck even deeper. Home-grown terror had hit home. The confusion that followed made matters worse.

The war on terror looked different to some Muslims who found themselves under constant surveillance because of their religion. They grappled with a widespread sense that in the eyes of the police, if you were a Muslim, you could be a potential terrorist.

My gut reaction was not of doubt but relief. With two of those responsible killed, a chain of wanton terror acts would finally end, I hoped. Then came the voices of dissent, which were worth listening to.

There are always two sides to a story. In this case, there were three: the police, residents of the Batla House locality, who jumped to the conclusion that those killed could not have been terrorists; and civil society groups who felt there was a thing or two shady about the killings.

I was asked to write a piece for the “Beyond the News” column. My brief was to try and understand, and then analyze, why some people doubted the encounter. Fair enough for a newspaper to do so. There were many things I needed to find out. I had to be careful in making the right deductions and not get swayed one way or the other. The piece I finally wrote was headlined, ‘Why they hate us’. ‘They’ stood for the terrorists. ‘Us’ meant you and me.

Terrorists do not kill or maim, I wrote, simply because they are crazy. They are not. If some of their causes are legitimate and are not inimical to our nation and constitutional means of redressal are available, then addressing these causes should naturally be a part of the terror-prevention strategy. However, this is not to suggest that terrorists should be left alone to kill people at will.

However, in my mind, one thing was abundantly clear. If people doubted the very shootout in which a police officer got killed, then there is something wrong either about the killings or about how people viewed police forces.

It ought to be an acute lack of credibility. And this is one of the reasons: counter-terrorism efforts have largely not been respectful of human rights.

India does not have a rights-respecting police force. The Indian government should take major steps to overhaul a policing system that facilitates and even encourages human rights violations, Human Rights Watch had said in a report released in August 2009, which has been acknowledged by the government. See here. (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/07/29/india-overhaul-abusive-failing-police-system)

It is dangerous for the police not to respect human rights. If counter-insurgency is seen to be harassing, there is a danger of people identifying more with the insurgency than with the government.

Nobody has a greater duty to follow the law than those who make or enforce it. As a thumb rule, lack of trust in the police undermines all efforts of the police themselves. And we should naturally support all efforts of the police to keep us safe from terrorists.

On September 8, 2009, the Ahmedabad metropolitan magistrate, S.P. Tamang, had found that the June 2004 killing of Ishrat Jahan, a young girl suspected to be a terrorist, was a case of ‘fake encounter’.

Tamang, in a 243-page hand-written report, concluded that the then ‘encounter specialist’ of Gujarat police, D.G. Vanzara, among others, killed the teenager in cold blood.

Privately, police officers I know by dint of my profession have occasionally admitted that most of the time, they get the wrong guys. An intelligence officer I trust once told me that some of the key people they arrested in the aftermath of Mumbai train blasts turned out be innocents. Tracking terrorists down after all is a difficult job, he said. He however said that was not the case with the young boys killed at Batla House in Jamia Nagar, who were indeed terrorists.

Incidents such as ‘fake encounters’ do not serve to enhance the image of police in the eyes of the public. The failure of the police to police itself creates impunity. This impunity erodes people’s trust in them.

Sometimes however, the police unfairly get the flak when terrorists get away because of want of evidence. As poet Robert Frost once said, a jury consists of twelve persons who decide who has a better lawyer.

However, considering there have always been more misses than hits, I for one would vouch for an independent probe every time police open fire and somebody is wounded or killed.

Defeating terror requires the cooperation of the people. They are less likely to cooperate — or may even sympathise with terrorists — if counter-terror is seen as abusive. Therefore, it is essential for any security force to be subject to the law. This has to do with not just human rights alone, but is smart counter-insurgency strategy too.

The war on terror is necessary and legitimate. But let’s have a war on errors in fighting terror too.

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  • Gopi Thomas

    There is no “if”, “but’, “however”, in dealing with terrorism. It has to be eliminated with brute force; the only language terrorists know.

    There will be collateral damage in any war; however, a police officer conducting a deliberate staged attack to please a political boss is not a war on terrorism. They should be arrested and put through the legal process.

    Our police force is neither trained nor equipped to fight the terrorists. First priority should be given to upgrade the police force, and to institute ithe infrastructure for ntelligence gathering and sharing ..

    We will not be able to stop all terrorist activities. But we can be swift in responding. 11/26 showed the weakness and unpreparedness. We just cannot have a repeat. We should have trained people who can be assembled fairly shortly. These people should be supported by the right equipment and communication systems.

    Terrorists from Pakistan will continue attacking India. Pakistani authorities could not or did not want to prevent this before; now it is going to be even worse because of the slide of Pakistan into a “failed state”. We have to be vigilant.

    [Reply]

    Zia Rikarty Reply:

    Dear Gopi Thomas,

    Why No comment on Goa Bomb Blast?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Rikarty

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Here’s your comment on the Goa ‘Bomb blast’ – Investigation should nail the culprits and if the culprits are found to have guns in their room when the police reach their home, there is a very good possibility that the terrorist/s could be killed by the anti-terror squad. Do you want any other comment on the Goa bomb blast ?

    Now, back to Zia’s post – “considering there have always been more misses than hits” – please provide evidence. A few highly publicised crimes cannot be counted as ‘more misses’ compared to daily crime prevention undertaken by our brave anti-terrorism officers.

    Before you make sweeping statements about the integrity of the entire law enforcement machinery, please make sure you have solid evidence.

    I would claim that there are more hits than misses or you wouldnt be safe in your home posting such nonsense in a national newspaper blog.

    [Reply]

    Goopi Thomas Reply:

    @Rikarty

    Goa blast, at this time, does not qualify as a major (or even minor) terrorist attack. It is only a nuiscence, although any life lost is one too many. We should be glad that only two lives were lost.

    However, if the investigation proves that there is an organizational connection to the entity rumored, and that entity is planning major attacks, all of the leaders should be arrested and put in jail.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “We should address the tribals’ problems;…”

    I have to say this, nobody will address their problems. Because the media has shut its ears. What we are seeing in India especially over the last two decades, is that the space for minorities, and poor is reducing in the public discussions.

    Whatever one says about the DD, it used to have good programmes about the lives of the poor people here. Nowadays thats just not the case. One can see it in the kind of films we make today, or the kind of programmes we have in TV. Its all about rich kind hearted guys who don’t have any problems in life except may be break ups!

    NDTV, to take an example ahs a channel called NDTV goodtimes, where they show the life style of the rich and famous 24 hours a day….yet not one channel covering …say Poverty round the clock….say NDTV -Poverty, NDTV-Injustice, or NDTV-labour to look at the issues of these tribals, workers or minorities etc.

    As P. Sainath says, to make news, the poor in India have to die in large numbers! The civil society in the western countries, in Europe and the US are more compassionate at least when compared to India, I feel. When the US was about to attack Iraq, one saw large rallies in NY and other western capitals. Here I dont recollect seeing a single big morcha or even a critical discussion about India’s role in Kashmir.

    No protests when the GoI decides whether or not to use air-power against the poorest sections of its own society! If the problem of the tribals have to be solved, then educated indians from the middle class will have to go to these areas and live there, with them, when the Government attacks these people, as Gandhi would have done. Organize massive rallies showing the plight of these people and how they are being displaced from their lands for the greed of a few. Unfortunately , I don’t see any such things happening any time soon.

    We need more heroes like Teesta Setalvad, Arundhati Roy, P.Sainath, Medha Patkar and so many more. We need to civilize this country more.

    Having an independent media would help, not corporate media or DD. Something on the lines of “Democracy Now” in the US.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Zia says “Terrorist is not crazy to maim…… Addressing the causes of terrorism must be a part of the counterterrorism strategy” …

    There can never be a linkage. Any developmental and assistance plan has to be as a part of the overall national and regional agenda, and not to “prevent” terrorism!

    Brute force is the only language; especially against the leadership.

    One of the first things the first ManMohan Govt was to undo the anti-terror laws. A tough preventive and prosecutive law (TADA), special courts for fast action, central authority over state cases, etc are needed to handle terrorism effectively. Many state administrations are in cohorts with terrorists (a prime example being in Kerala – the nexus between Marxist party and Ma.dani’s PDP which is a rebrand of SIMI). Vote bank politics and appeasement play a big role in the investigation and prosecution. CBI should be responsible for investigation, with cases decided by special courts.

    I will even deploy a “guilt by association” law. All government assistance will be denied to the kiths and kins of anybody sentenced on terrorism charges – brothers, sisters, sons, daughters will not receive any education and other assistance; reservation seats will be denied; any current government subsidies will be discontinued etc.

    [Reply]

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    Mr.Gopi, very thought worthy solution provided the Govt pays heed.

    The very essence of Indian judiciary is a mockery on justice. If really and seriously the govt’ wants to fight against terror and lessen errors, then Yes summary courts should be supported in full vigour.

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    I agree with Mr Chidambaram’s statement “the few grains of truth must be seen in proportion to the mountains of deceit and violence” perpretated by these terrorists.

    Obviously, liberals like Arundhati Roy are after Chidambaram – for cozying upto mining interests, for insensitivity to Muslims, for not caring about the tribals.

    Sometimes you have to wonder – who is the greater evil –the terrorist or his protractor.

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Terrorism update 10/19

    - Muslims in US (of Pakistani ancestry) getting trained in Pakistan terrorist camps for attack in US
    - Taliban is not impacted by money laundering controls–the opium trade brings them lots of money
    -Pakistan situation is going worse – US doubtful whether Pakistan military can accomplish its mission to drive out Taliban (partly because army is in collusion with Taliban)

    All of these covered in today’s Washpo and HT

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    For example I wrote earlier.
    Imagine 1 in 1lakh people is terrorists (that is 99.999 % are innocent).
    If we have 10 crore population, that is 1000 people who could be terrorists.

    Does our police have enough resources to track 24 hrs that person that 1 in 1 lakh ?
    How to indentify that 1 person ?

    Muslim community should come forward and help identify terrorists among them.
    Going by the multiple terror events, that is not happening.

    Remember this

    Terrorists are also trained in deception and other members of sleeper cells maintain a front of innocence and plausible deniability..

    They want to cover their tracks and look innocent to everyone.
    The residents of Batla house or in some other locality may not know the cover and mask these terrorist may be using. They are not experts in digging for the truth.

    If those killed were so innocent, how come sometimes police are getting killed.
    Where are those “innocent” terrorists getting weapons ?

    Zia is going crazy in trying to defend criminals (probably has an ulterior motive, just like some international human rights groups have)..

    or how about giving some practical suggestions.

    or how about putting some special tax on Muslims to fund upgrading the police forces ?
    (just like Jizya is allowed on non-muslims, why not put terror tax on muslim community..
    call me crazy now!!!)

    This is a form of Jizya making non-muslims pay for the police force to track muslim criminals.

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    Hey terrorists can;t be shonw mercy.. Force works against these criminals.> KPS Gill has successfully shonw it in Punjab and that great man even asked once to be given charge of J/K and terrorism will vanihish within no time.. Govt of India chickened out.. After all it;s govt f India which entered golden temple but could not muster enough cajones to enter a dargah in kashmir and allowed dreaded terrorists free pass. Mind you before peopel start harping about Kandhar unlike kandhar these charar-eshrif terrorist had not taken anyone hostage yet govt of India let these criminals go..

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Anil

    Are you talking about the Kandahar exchange of Danny Pearl’s killer during the BJP rule? Did not get you..

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @ Anil

    Did not get you. Are you talking about the exchange deal done at Kandahar to hand over the DannyPearl murderer to Pakistan?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Gopi,
    One of the biggest problems we have in this country is that since law and order is in the hands of the state governments, the intelligence gathering is largely in pockets. There is no sharing of intelligence amongst states and often only such information is shared which is politically expedient.
    I do not understand how
    1. An encounter in which a serving police officer dies in operation is still doubted as fake (Batla House).
    2. Accepting, for a moment, the shoot-out in which Ishrat Jahan died was staged, can some one please answer:
    a) Most of shoot-outs which decimated the Mumbai underworld are alleged fake or at best avoidable (meaning, they could have been captured and brought to justice, but were not). Mumbai is largely free of ganglord menace today; the so called “civil sociey” is largely acquiescent of the means employed to rid the city of this menace. Why?
    b) Punjab insurgency was controlled largely thorough giving a “free hand” to Gill. I do not see any protests.
    c) Why is the Central Government (Congress) now rescinding its earlier intelligence report basis which the unfortunate girl was tracked down and shot? Governments in Maharashtra are held to a different standard than the government in Gujarat?
    d) What was Ishrat Jahan doing in Ahmedabad, in the company of men at least 2 of whom she had no means of knowing? What was she doing for 4 days out of home?
    To sum up, fake encounters in India are not new. Deplorable as they are, to think that all of them target innocent Muslims is a bit rich. A debate on fake encounters, illegal detentions, torture etc is messy; I do not subscribe to the “collateral damages are inevitable” view. But, I have no sympathies for the leaders, the ideologues and the recruiters to the violent causes.
    3) Why are all the English language press engaged in massive white-washing of Kobad Ghandy and Koteswara Rao’s image?
    4. I do not understand why we still believe that a few terrorists came by the boat and killed couple of hundred people in Mumbai with no local support. I see no attempt made to uncover the local links.
    5. Your faith in CBI, in its present shape is misplaced. CBI, unlike the FBI, can not take suo-motu cognizance of a case nor can it do intelligence gathering unless specific to a case. We need an agency like FBI and with independence to probe and prosecute corruption, terror and all types of “federal” crimes. All state governments are against such a force being raised; the idea of which was mooted first by Chidambaram after the 26/11 outrage.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Ashish

    You are absolutely right about the intelligence sharing, state vs central law and order , US model etc. We have to have an FBI type organization to investigate “terrorist” and other national type cases, as well as the US Dist Attorney type organization to go after corruption, influence peddling etc. I do not know whether these can be passed by a vote in the parliament or whether constitution has to be amended.

    Either we believe in our police system or we modify (using an FBI model, change of law etc); we cannot always second-guess their actions. It is a joke that liberals and media and Muslim organizations always go after police; instead of going after the terrorists and raising legitimate questions such as what was the girl doing in Ahmedabad (Marketing Studies!), what role the Musllim convert played etc,

    I do believe Chidambaram has an innate sense of what is happening and is asking himsself the questions you raised. The issue is always the political party and votes in the next election; and that is the tragedy of our system.

    One thing – I just hope politicians do not say “Mumnaites are resilient; they know how to move forward with theirr lives” after the next Mumbai attack- that is becoming stale!

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Zia

    We have to accept democracy has flaws; however, it is better than any other system; especially the Middle Eastern and Pakistani systems with appalling human right records. (Well, I can hear my compatriots saying “India should be better than these countries”.)

    Open, democratic societies have faults and commit abuses. They also have self correcting mechanisms – journalists like you, vigorous public debate, adversarial press, nd many other mechanisms. However, your suggestion that each and every shootout should be investigated by an independent body flies against the concept of our democracy and government. It simply should not be done. An “error” cannnot be equated to a “terror”. There is no moral equivalence.There is a difference between wrongs committed in self defence or in a vigilante handling of terrorists and underground gangs (as Ashish mentioned in his response) and those perpretated intentionally.

    To add insult to injury, many terrorists such as the 11/26 criminals, are not fighting for any cause. They are robots trained by a—-holes like Saeed just to kill and create maximum damage.

    I agree with many in this forum that brute force is the right and only medicine to fight terrorism. .

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Should there a “Terror Tax” on muslims to upgrade the police intelligence gathering ?

    How come Zia doesnt want to investigate the local help given to terrorists of 11/26 ?

    Can he demand that ?

    How about catching the people who set Train on fire in Godhra ?

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Sam

    We are not some autocratic Arab country to institute tax on just a group. However, government can pass laws like confiscating property and other punitive measures.

    The local help in 11/26 should be investigated. A few locals were arrested as you know. However, as Ashish and Gopi mentioned, the investigations are disjoint because each state has to conduct investigate on its people. It is time to change our archaic system.

    All terrorists should be hunted down and killed; terrorist training camps in Pakistan should be bombed.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims should know that this kind of group tax is ok as per Islam.
    (it has nothing to do with an autocratic arabs).

    Koran asks for the state to levy Jizya.
    Jizya is an oppressive tax on people who do not believe in Arab God Allah.

    Sharia justice and Koranic words justify group taxes.

    So the rest of the world should TURN THE TABLES and start levying “Muslim Terror” tax on them.
    They are causing it and they should pay for it and it is also Sharia compliant.

    (these ideas are considered crazy in front of politically correct, so called peacenicks.
    But show me, why they are wrong from islamic perspective,,, )

    S Singh Reply:

    Sam, although conceptually (and according to Sharia) you make sense; there is n o way a separate tax can be applied to one specific group in India.

    We have to build better protection, tough anti-terror laws, fast trials etc.

  • Raju Kurien

    terrorism update:

    One Tarek Mahenna, of Pakistani descent, was arrested today in Boston, USA for planning the killing of two US Senators and for planning bombing in shopping centers.

    He was in Pakistan twice obtaining “Masters in Terrorism” from their leading terrorist universities.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    ….and the most noteworthy part of the article is the conclusion (part IV)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    But today’s Islamists and jihadists quote verse after verse from Koran to justify their violence against Kaffirs.

    That’s the difference.

    Jihadists need a heavy dose of medicine with tables turned against them…

    Non-muslims should ask muslim sharia leaders if it is ok for govt’s to levy an exclusive “Muslim Terror Tax”..

    This is just religious opinion. Whether govts will do it or not that is secondary.

    Also just like Al Qaida wanted to destroy the symbols of the West which are very important to them (like World trade center, white house, …)
    jihadists should be told that their symbols of their religion are also a legitimate target..

    if there are further attacks, as per Ann Coulter even Mecca and Medinah should not be exempt from retaliation..

    Look for Tom Tancredo and his views…
    The attitudes against Koran inspired violence (as per the jihadists) are hardening every day..

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Syed

    Well, people who do not know history are condeme to repeat it..

    Now, since we know, we will not repeat it!

    Contrary to the article, violence is NOT a natural form of protest against perceived injustice.

    (I do agree with the recommendations on finding alternatives to oil, cutting off Saudids etc)
    There are no good terrorists and bad terrorists — that is what Pakistan did, and see where they are now.

    Terrorists should be annihilated with brute force; because that is the only language they know. They should not be given a single inch of space.

    Nazis, Stalinists, and now Political Islam — these are all killing machines, slaughtering children, women, often face-to-face, shooting, hacking, bombing..

    Political Islam – Jihadism- constitutes the most coherent and deadly mass murderous ideology since Nazism. We have seen what iy does and how it spreads. It is upto all peace loving people to kill this hydra, with all forces targeted at them. It is not a nuiscence, it is not going to disappear if Palestine became an independent nation. It will disappear only after an “Islamic reformation”.

    We have to gather as much intelligence as possible about the current situation in Pakistan;
    especially if the army is defeated in some of the territories by TAliban/Al queda. That will give these terrorists all tthe ammunition to move on to here

    [Reply]

  • syed

    Terrorism is old hat if you look at history. For those who like reading here is an interesting article …..
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/blood-rage–history-the-worlds-first-terrorists-1801195.html

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj

    Interseting..

    Islamophobia … i have not come across a term called ” Hinduphobia” or “Sikhophobia” or “Jainophobia”

    Why only “Islamophobia”?

    “It is dangerous for the police not to respect human rights.” . Forget cops, we do not have any kind of human rights in India..it’s all a big drama!

    “But let’s have a war on errors in fighting terror too”. …
    I think we should be fighting only one war ” War on terror ” , even mistakes are made… no issues… dont create another “War” for your own sake Zia.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Because Muslims are good at hurting someone, or just crying in anticipation of a retaliation…

    So they invent all kinds of words to claim that they are the victims (when they are the initiators of the violence in most cases)..

    It is an offensive-defense strategy, perfected with Mohd.
    Claiming injustice attack your neighbors, get their property, kill the males, and then marry the widows in the name of sympathy and as per Allah’s laws…

    then if someone retaliates, claim islamophobia..
    islam is misunderstood, if only you understand more islam….

    the biggest misunderstanders of islam are muslims themselves…
    go teach them first not to fear islam..(as they constantly seem to misunderstand it)..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @sam,
    Read the article again. As Twain has said “history does not repeat itself but it does rhyme” In other words the then anarchists found justification for what they did from within their belief system much like terrorists of today.
    Personally I have no problems with a “muslim terror tax” and even blowing up muslim religious symbols IF it stops terrorism. The ends justify the means, what.
    However if terrorism increases due to these measures then people like you should be ready to take the responsibility.

    @Gopi
    I agree with what you are say ie. terrorism should be annihilated with brute force, such as what Pakistan is trying to do in wazirstan. However after Pakistan wins the battle in Wazirstan (hopefully) what next? PAkistan then has to win the peace which it can do only be ensuring there is no more fresh supply of committed jehadis in wazirstan and elsewhere. This can only be done by ensuring that conditions for creation of fresh “furious young men” do not exist.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    The question for me is to find out if a “Muslim Terror Tax” can be exclusively levied on Muslims ?
    Would that be religiously acceptable as per Sharia ?

    The secondary thing is, if islamists/jihadists keep targeting the symbols of the west, at some point west will also target symbols which are dear to those.

    Tom Tancredo, Ann Coulter are looking for pressure points which can stop this anarchy.
    With Soviets, MAD (mutually assured destruction) worked, because Russians also loved to live.

    With Islam, may be targeting their important symbols in Mecca/Medinah would be targetted by West at some point..
    If a threat to nuke islams symbols stops these jihadists, that will achieve some measure of truce.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sam

    Be logical and reasonable. Lets say there is another 11/26. Whom are you going to tax? Pakistanis?
    What about Maoists? whom will we tax? What buildings will we nuke?

    First and foremost, our political leaders should make decision without the appeasement/fear of vote bank. Many a time they do not do that;; moreover, because of the state/central structure and separation even a targeted program becomes non-focused and diluted.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    The intention in raising this question is different.

    The question is , is there a sharia compliant way to put “muslim terror tax” ?
    I am just looking for answer, entirely based on Koran
    (not on the practicality in a democracy or other humanitarian basis)…

    Secular democracies will never do it and i agree to your point.

    It is important to raise these questions and probably get an answer from Muslims for several reasons.
    Communal punishments are the rule of law in several societies, until democracies came up with the concept of indiviual rights/responsibilities.

    For an arab or specifically jihadists, this will not be an easy question to answer based on Koran.

    When Maoists or communists did something, they were banned in many countries.
    Why not apply the same rule for islamists/jihadists ?

  • Syed

    @sam
    Are you talking about a sharia compliant terror tax on muslims? I dont know how you can fit that within the framework of sharia but why dont you give it a try. Go to Saudi & get a fatwa from the mullas & then you might have something to work on for the salafis. Of course you would also need a fatwa from Iran for the shias. Iran would obviously refuse as suicide bombing is unknown amongst shias. Then of course you need something for the 70 odd other sects of Islam…

    Reg. blowing up muslim religious symbols, from the little understanding I have of terrorists, I feel in a convoluted way they would actually want the west to do something like that. That way they would be assured of an endless supply of jehadis for a couple of generations at least.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    There has to be a pressure point for jihadists to make sure they do not cross some line.
    What is dear to them, has to be targeted.

    So what is a single threat which will work on them ?

    Remember it only takes a few minutes for the west to nuke any/all important religious symbols of islam..

    Most jihadists are confident that the west will not do it.
    What will make them believe that the west is seriously considering this option ?

    When Germany

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    “It has to be eliminated with brute force; the only language terrorists know”

    Its an interesting fact that what Gopi has said has been and will always be said by all shades of people. George Bush against the Islamists, Osama Bin Laden against the Americans, Indian government against the Kashmiri militants, the Kashmiri Militants against the Indian government, The GOI against the Maoists, the Maoists against the GoI, the Isrealis against the Palestinians and the Palestianians against the Israelis.

    The assumption behind the statement in the case of the powerful; George Bush, Israel, GoI, is their, blind and contrary to facts, belief that their awesome power will win over the powerless….which is understandable…since excess power indeed blinds.

    While the powerless says that because they believe they are left with no other alternative, which from their perspective is again understandable.

    But one thing is certain, that terrorism and/or resistance will not end this way. Unless the root causes are not eradicated, violent reaction will keep occuring, in one form or the other. Israel will never get peace till Palestinians do; The Indian elite and state wont get it, till the tribals, the Kashmiris and others do…. Globalization of terror you see. Peace will come only through justice; and in no other way.

    Because, to paraphrase Arundhati Roy from her famous “Come September” speech; the awesome war machine and military power riding over which these statements are being made by the elite are products of human intelegence; but they will be undone by human nature- to resist injustice.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby, Bobby, Bobby………….

    You are right in your conclusion.

    However, as a tactic, I am against the linkage. I do not want to sympathize with the terrorists “Oh this terrorism is abad; but they are doing it because….”

    I will hunt and kill the leaders and their hardcore followwers

    That does not mean that we should not solve the tribals’ problem. We should. Actually, I would have been happy if the Maoists kidnapped an MP or a minister or a collector or even killed one of them, instead of kidnapping and killing the poor constable or clerk. That would have created a sea change. The issue is that leaders do not want to change anything; they just want to go on. Dont you think they can easily kidnap/kill a political leader or a couple of senior bureaucrats? Naxalites did the same stupid thing in their sixties run around, when they killed chota landlords and let the fat cow politicians slip away. I remeber how the populace tin my hometown urned against them when a local landlord (farmer may be more apt – he had only 5 acres of land) was beheaded and his head put on his house gate.

    Drew Conway’s zero intelligence Agents (ZIA) project and reserach has debunked that terrorism is the outlet of the poor, uneducated, and dissatisfied individualsmwith nothing to live for.

    I agree with you that the underlying issues have to be addressed and solved. Powerful cannot go on appropriating the lands of the tribals.

    However, as I wrote before; I do have a major problem when a rich Muslim kid from my hometown of Kannur goes to Pakistan to get terrorist training so he can join the jehad for Kashmir’s case or Palestine case.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    The maoists have done a lot of bad things, that is not the point. The GoI has done even worse things. Will you take a gun and fight against them as well?

    Drew Conway’s “research” itself is very easily debunked, since it is based on wrong premises. It fails to take in to account, the most important point about human nature, which is known to most anthropologists and evolutionary biologists.

    Among all animals, we are unique in having the ability to make a mental map of others and feel for their causes as if it was ones own. This is a crucial difference, and a powerful evolutionary change, which helped us create strong social bonds.

    This is why a rich muslim kid from kerala may go and fight for palestinians, or another rich Muslim by the name of Osama Bin Laden will go and live in caves in Afghanistan, or for that matter a reasonably well to do Kobad Ghandy, leaves everything and fights for the poor, or as the rich Europeans, fight for the poor as pointed out in the beatiful article that Syed linked to.

    There is a link between perceived injustice and terrorism, but its not the people who feel the injustice who always fight back, many times its others.

    The rich muslim kid from kerala does it for he feels a religious bond with the palestinians.

    I think that, feeling for a group of oppressed people and fighting for them is a very honourable thing. The problem is the means of fighting back. If the rich muslim from kerala had gone to palestine on a civil resistance movement against the Israelis , would you still find it objectionable? I would not.

    What I feel is wrong is not his going to palestine, to help palestinians, but rather the kind of help he provides; which is to kill more innocent Israeli civilians. This is what is wrong, not the act of helping a fellow muslim. I don’t think thats wrong at all. But this wrong cannot be seen in isolation, it has to be seen in the context of the much bigger wrong being committed on the palestinians.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    I would not have had a problem if that rich Muslim kid from my neighborhood had gone to Palestine for a civil disobedience movement. (I may still have a minor problem). (I am not aware of any Catholics from here (or anywhere else) going to Belfast, or any Hindu going to Sri Lanka — but that is for another day, and not germane here).

    There may or may not be a link between terrorism and injustice; that is beside the point. terrorists have to be hunted and killed; injustice also has to be dealt within the democratic system we have. We do not have Kings or Sultans; what we have is a reasonably functioning democratic system; people can vote, form parties. We have seen how incumbents have been voted out. Have these Maoists look at the Mao land to see what is happening there.

    Nobody wants a solution to Palestine – Arabs have vested interest in keeping status quo, Israelis do not want to settle either. arabs can follow Mahatma Gandhi and just walk into Israel with a sea of people. What will Israel do? Bomb all of them?

    How come Indians did not resort to any terrorism (except a couple of isolated incidents) in spite of all the injustices of the British?

    All democracies are a work in progress. It is simply amazing where we are considering where we were. With all the contemptuous hurlings against our founding leaders; nobody can dispute that they were visionaries who built a strong foundation over a set of core principles. Open democratic societies and governments do have faults; they do commit abuses. They also have the ability to correct them.

    We should address the tribals’ problems; at the same time we should kill Ghandys and other leaders.

    Modern India does not need terrorism to solve its problems.

    Sam Reply:

    even if there was no palestianians, arab muslims and their brainwashed fellow muslims will still be committing terrorist jihadist acts as per their koran.

    If it was just up to Muslims, every imagined problem has a solution using violence.

    What is the issue with Palestinians ?
    In the 20th century, there were 100 million refugees due to war/violence…
    they were all settled and moved on.

    But not the 400,000 palestinian refugees.
    Now even the grand kids of the original refugees are classified as refugees and get the aid.
    No other arab country lets them get citizenship …
    they all want them to have refugee status.

    close to 800,000 jews were driven out of Arab countries in the same period.
    They are all settled.
    Most jewish people left lot of properties and they were all taken oven by arab govts with no compensation.
    So let arab countries welcome their Jewish people (what did Egyptian, Iraq, Iranian Jews got to do with this)..

    Also let Saudi welcome Jewish people back to Mecca/Medinah and remove religious apartheid in those cities.

    then talk about other things..

  • Gopi Thomas

    Bobby

    The very reason you are seeinga different kind of movie (whetehr artsy or commercial) is that we have moved ahead economically.; and that peoples aspirations are signifivcantly different from, say, my younger days.

    Of course, there is poverty, exploitation. There are also committed people, right programs, more money etc expended on this. The execution of many programs need drastic improvement; public money with private grass roots organization will result in significant improvement. Much of the allocated money is diverted by the bureaucarcy and the Muslim (or tribal, or backward or whatever) leaders to their own pockets.

    I am a firm believer, based on what I have seen and experienced, that a rsing tide lifts everybody. So, we have to ahve growth and innovation oriented policies, create a china type growth (9-12%), create all foundations for growth – education, infrastructure, healthcare, and upliftment will follow. Growing economy needs skilled and unskilled people to support the growth.

    There are significant regioal disparities; South and West have grown faster with population at all levels particpating in that. North and East will take a while; but it will happen.

    USA, after 250 years, is still perfecting its systems and society. They have their racial problem, economic problem, educational problem, healthccare problem etc. In facty, we lucked out on the recession much better.

    We will also be perfecting. there is never a destination. there will always be issues. The challenge is how we attempt to solve the issues, what issues we take a s priority. We have to look into short term and long term. Only Tylenol is fast acting and long lasting; all others have only one choice!!!!

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    “The very reason you are seeinga different kind of movie (whetehr artsy or commercial) is that we have moved ahead economically…”

    I wish that was the reason, but unfortunately the reason is that the inequality in our society, as is true world wide, has gone to dangerous proportions. When this happens, the rich and upper middle class have so much money that they have begun to form a closed system; meaning one where they dont need any interactions with the lower middle class or poor people, (who still constitute several hundred millions of people).

    For instance; they can make movies, which can make big profits, by selling it to the same group of people. Unlike the earlier times, when a big proportion of the revenue for the movies came from poor people, who sat at the front rows for instance, today thats just not the case. The most revenue comes from Multiplexes and also the NRI’s, therefore the content of movies also changes, since the consumers have changed. Same for TV content. This in itself is not a problem, but a serious symptom of the malaise.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    Creating wealth and prosperity is the best medicine to alleviate poverty. Wealth has to be created before it can be distributed. Even China has found that out to their delight. We all know what happened to Soviet union or Eastern Europe.

    Women’s empowerment is one of the main keys for development. One reason, as you may know, why Kerala is ahead in social metrics is the historical “upper hand” women had; through property rights, education , even marital choice (in the old days) etc. Microfinance schemes targeted at women will create educated children; because women more than men, are interested in the well being of the children..

    Technology, education, development, foreign investment, domestic investment, responsible government and responsible community – all have to play a role. You must have read about Sethunarayanan’s (CDDP) project about “better’ mousetraps for the rat catchers of the Irula Tribe in AP. Their income tripled, they are able to send their children to school without worrying about rat catching. The key is to spread these types of innovations targeted at specific locales and communities.

    There are various “high end” and “low end” technology/community collaborations happening across India where local people take leadership. There are several innovative stuff happening in Kerala. ICentarl govt Ground Water scientists and the Thannirmukkam village panchayath have a novel scheme in process about agriculture/ cultivation without ******** up the water table. There is a big fisheries project in coordination with the Central fisheries Institute and a village in Alleppy. This has already doubled the income of the fishermen, more importantly, increased the yield by appropriate care of fish as they grow. tObviously, the panchayath leaders took initiatives to invite these institutes; there was abundance of money devoted to these types of stuff in the central budget. BBC is doing a documentary on this, as an example of how a committed group can bring meaningful changes.

    As you know, China gets 15 times foreign investment compared to India. Karat and company were against foreign investment. Hopefully things will change and fforeign unding will flow into infrastructure and rural projects.

    We have a huge imbalance between agricultural employment and agricultural contribution to GDP. The major challenge in the coming years will be to “convert” rural agricultural workforce into some other skills, or migrating them to urban areas (which is a challenge). But we are a resilient group of people; and we can meet these challenges.

    Pragmatism should prevail over dogmatism. Politicians should be committed. Communities should have the leadership to leverage the myriads of government and pribvate schemes. already available.

    With our distorted vote bank and reservation policies, what we see many a time is a race to the bottom.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    You have hit the nail on the head. Displacing people from their farms, to be sold for “corporate farming”, and also tribals from their lands so that again these lands rich in minerals can be then taken over by the greedy corporates and their political pimps, is the sole purpose of todays economic thinkers.

    This has already resulted in large scale displacements from the villages to slums in cities like Bombay, and to farmer suicides of so lakhs of farmers. Not to mention the rise of Maoist movements.

    Wealth is not being created, but rather transferred, from the poor to the rich. By selling resources common to all to private companies for dirt cheap prices, what is being done is a slow and steady transfer of wealth. — No “trickle down”, its “splash up” all the way.

    I guess these are all the necessary “sacrifices” that people below a certain income have to make for a “developed super power India”.

    Bobby Reply:

    Not to forget…. this is precisely what the East India company and later the British Government did in India.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    You are way off the mark. There is no way to have 40% of the country’s workforce supporting /creating only 13% of the GDP. Either we have to increase the agricultural contribution, or reduce the agricultural workforce. It is a simple law of economics.

    By reducing the workforce,, it does not mean farms are being taken over by corporate farms. It only means that iof there are 8 adults “caring” for a two acre land, 4-5 of them will have to find some other vocation.. Family and individual farms will continue; but there is no way three generations can survive simultaneouslly just by depending on a family farm. To
    some extent, this is already happening; with “farmers” from North India migarting to construction work in Gurgaon, Gujrat, South india etc. Agricultural output could not be improved other than at a marginal rate, because of the limitation of land, and the full utilization of “green revolution”. So, the only solution is to retarin some of them, as well as create jobs for them.

    You acannot view everything as an “exploitation”. It is not so. We have to create jobs. Nobody is advocating taking over poor peoples land. Get a life….

    I am not for taking over land or other properties of anybody. We have laws and rules (although politicians will bend). And, let us not view everything in the frame of “class”. So many are moving up in the economic chain. Of course, we have many to be uplifted. It is a function of the denominator – 1.1 billion people – we have. We could have done a Chinese swing by insisting that a family can have only one child; in fact , Sanjay Gandhi wanted a “forced” sterilization.

    The key is jobs, education, womens status, technology, private-public partnership. Government cannot and will not solve the problems by itself. Wealth does trickle down.. A new business or IT development center in Kochi means couple more tea shops, laundry/ironoing stands, elevator operators, secutrity staff, canteen maintenance, parking lot attendents etc.. So, jobs are craeted at multiple levels.

    Or we can go back to our socialist ethos of 1990s and before. Listen, we were ridiculed for our “Hindu arte of growth” of 3% and less. Peopel at all levels were significantly poorer than they are now. Now we have 6.5%; growth; we should move to 10-12%.
    It could be done faster, but for the messy democracy! But, in the long turn, democarcy will be good for a sustainable economy. I strongly believe China will be crippled 10-15 years from now because of their male-female imbalance, lack of democarcy, lack of financial and legal systems. We are the tortoise in this race..

    HAae confidence.. contribute to any job generation scheme.. Jobs is numero ono..

    And control your friend Karat and co.

    Let me know if you have any suggestions on job creation for 500 million people who are below 23.,

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    For a change, do some actual reading; to get rid of your self delusion. Read where we are in HDI as developed by the UN and we are going down, and what the WB says about inequality here.

    Some people are doing far better than previously, but most are actually getting poorer. There is no trickle down, its all trickle up and at an astonishing rate.

    The important point is to read, instead of singing discredited slogans like “India Shining”.

    Read what experts like P. Sainath, on why farmers are committing suicide, how and why people are forced to migrate in search of crumbs.

    Anyways this is going far beyond the topic of the post, so i will stop.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    Inequality is widening all over the world. US inequality grew significantly in the last ten years, while the total wealth also grew,a nd poverty declined.. These are functions of tarnsformational technology, new inventions etc. Google, which is an 8 year old company has produced many millionaires and billionaires, includinga n indian dollar billionaire, Sri Ram. In India, we know of infossy smillionaires. So many innovative enterprises have come up in the last 10-15 years as a result of the technology revolution; it ahas produced immense wealth in india asnd abroad. The financial markets also created billionaires (and many lost with the drop in the last year). Times of rapid and accelearting technological disruptions create huge pockets of wealth. There is no divine rule that people cannot create wealth, amass wealth, and that theer cannot be inequality. I have not seen the numbers; but I would bet that the communist china may ahve the highest income gap among developinga nd rich countries. .

    The challenge is that all should have a way of making a basic living, each generation hopefully should do better than the prior generation. The country has to focus on job gneration through education, tax concession, infarstructure, investment climate etc.

    What are your suggestions to create jobs for the large number ogf youngsters – 500 million of them. Obviosuly ,they all cannot eb absorbed by government. Where will the jobs be, how will it be created, who will create.. Let me know your solutions

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish
    We have read similar stuff too often now, so it was a difficult guess any way. Since there is a mention of Party so we have to rule out the Freelance LIBOSECIs of Ms Roy and types. Karat or someone from CPM can’t be considered because it targets Buddha babu, Trinamool is strong but it targets Manmohan and UPA as well

    That leaves Jamat-e-Islami, UDF -Assam types, CPI, RPI or some Maoists and I won’t rule out samajwadis either. But I am inclined to rule out the JeM types, because there is no reiteration of Islam is peace and Jihad is a misunderstood word and the fact that there is an acknowledgement of existence of Islamic Jihad albeit with appropriate justification, if it is indeed one of them then I am behind the curve.

    Someone from CPI, RPI, K Ghandi or the Power Maoist couples? I give up

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    It should come from Brida Karat; but she wont crtoticize Budhde; Arundhati is the next probable, but she is not this stupid; it has to be a Naxalite/maoist because of the adivasi connection..

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    what is scary is that many of the answers that you thought of could well be close to the truth. In this case, it is Comrade Ganapathy
    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/we-shall-certainly-defeat-the-government

  • S Singh

    Zia is making a mountain out of a mole with statements like ” let us have a war on errors’ , “India does not have rights-respecting police”. He defies his own logic – on one side he says ” war on terror looked different to some Muslims who found under constant surveillance…in the eyes of the police, if you are a Muslim, you are a potential terrorist”. — so how can he blame the entire police force of the country as one who does not respect rights based on the performance of two or three of our police departments? He can blame the police en masse; however, he thinks Muslims are blamed unfairly.

    Muslims are under watch all over the world. We had a problem just few days ago when US visa was denied to one of our Muslim MPs (because his name matched a terrorist database)a. The PM intervened to procure a visa for the MP. Shah Ruh Khan had problem with his New York visit two months ago. All of us face extensive checkings doing our travel; especially international travel. I bet Zia gets checked multiple times when he does an international travel. It is unfair; but Muslims themselves are responsible for this mess. It will take a long time before these are relaxed.

    It is imperative and natural for the Indian police to have potential Muslim terrorists under surveillance. USA, the champions of freedom, liberty, and democracy, does it to protect their citizens. Yes, it is not fair; but better be safe than sorry.

    The police always is in a no-win situation. We should support the police in these tough times.

    Muslims (not all) themselves are the creators of these problems. 9/11 brought worldwide attention to the vicious murders committed by some believers in the name of Allah. As a result of a series of bombings and murders (by a few), all Muslims are now viewed with suspicion in Europe, UK, USA . Neighbour suspects neighbour in Pakistan! So, it is only a natural response if non-Muslim Indians and the Indian Police have similar suspicion and doubts.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Do not bother responding to all idiots and their idiotic statements.

    I put a question;;;
    What is the most effective way to catch 1 terrorist in 1 lakh supposedly innocent people.

    How much resources the police need to do this ?

    How to get those funds to fund the police ?
    How about raising those funds exclusively from the community which is creating/helping those terrorists ?

    Everyone wants to complain without coming up with solutions..

    [Reply]

    sahil Reply:

    Hey hi Mr Sam . how r u..??
    Let me first tell u, tat the terrorists ,they don’t have any religion whether u take Muslim or Hindu or Christian.They have only one motive destruction,
    Now comes the question whether to blame or impose tax on Muslims as wt u have written, i say its totally bullshit.Let me make u understand this.. For instance if Mr Sam u r driving a Mercedes car and u met an accident so do we people the spectators have to blame u or the car or your parents who gave u birth and u killed so many people because of this accident..answer me then impose tax on Muslims got it..

    [Reply]

  • sahil

    @ sam

    Bro wen it comes to one’s own neck then he/she feels the pain.Wt us,israils r doin to muslims leave the terrorists talk abt the innocent ppl isnt tat an act of terror.

    only in iraq around 93,552-102,803 had been killed according to the recent study nd u know wt the general of us army said (WE DON’T COUNT BODIE’s).wt was there fault that they wre muslims??in 2009 around 5000 ppl wre killed in palestine.

    i dont say tat as a muslim i pay more sympathy to ppl killed in iraq or paleestine na then i ll be wrong.i m more sympathetic to ppl killed in india.

    its obivious tat wen mine or ur innocent brother or sister are killed by these forces we have the natural tendency to retaliate nd if we dont then we r called coward.

    so ppl should think or take this topic of terrorism in a broder sence nd go deep inside the core nd solve it.

    by imposin tax or toturing muslims ll make it worse brother.. tats wt newton says to evry action there is equal nd opp reaction.. dont u agree wth this..
    can u count hw manky ppl wre killed in india durin 2009 bcoz of terror attacks its vry less.. but u know in 2006 around 27436 ppl wre killed bcoz of accidents.y we not talkin abt those things y only terrorism..

    TALKIN ABT TERRORISM IS A WAY OF HIDING FAULTS AND ERRORS IN OUR SYSTEM BY POLITICIANS…Its all abt votes for them ,they dont care wthether a hindu,muslim or a christian is bein killed.. accordin to them WRE THERE IS A VOTE THERE IS A WAY

    talkin abt islam our father of nation gandhiji was inspired by islam and its mesenger do u know tat..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I am trying to find out, if a Sharia compliant special tax can be put on Muslims ?

    The concept of taxing a group of people for certain things is acceptable in Arab traditions.
    (this was true for most societies, until the western democratic concepts of indiviuality became more established..)…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    89% of muslim vote went to Jinnah in pre partition india.

    So the only true leader for them is Jinnah and they voted for his philosophy of an islamic state.
    Once they voted for his partition politics, isn’t it fair that they also follow him in actions.
    He left Bombay and went to his created country ..

    What stopped ALL his followers in doing the same ?
    Shouldnt they follow their leader ?
    I would respect anyone who follows their philosophy with actions..

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Is Mr Zia suggesting, that terror attacks do have some relation with, what he describes as, Islamophobia? Is that a surprise ? Yes It is. Because for far too long, the whole assortment of LIBOSECIs (acronym for liberals and  seculars of India ) have shown remarkable promptitude  in inventing ROOT CAUSES of terror, but are overcome by an inexplicable stasis when it comes to stuff like Islamophobia or post Godhra riots, suddenly,  CAUSES cease to have EFFECTS. So, surprised, I am!   Now the statement ” If Muslim-perpetrated terror creates Islamophobia; smart counter-insurgency should be able to purge Islamophobia”, apart from being perverted, is green at best and dangerous at worst. Please, let counter-insurgency, counter insurgency alone, it should not have anything to do with Islamophobia.  But if fighting Islamophobia is really the priority, then let us acknowledge some home truths first. Firstly Islamophobia is fueled, not only by actual terror attacks, but also by their constant  threat and above all from the realization that the ideology fueling terror is rarely, if ever, discussed by the mainstream for PC compulsions. Rest assured, Islamophobia will prosper as long as LIBOSECIs continue with ROOT CAUSE obsession and keep on denying the existence  (a) of people sharing the same ideological goals,  who appear to reject violence as a tactic, but are tolerant of violence as long as it helps the goal and(b) of, not some insignificant minority, willing to use violence for their goals on one pretext or another. The NOT SOME INSIGNIFICANT MINORITY, in this context is a number sufficient to cause large scale killings given the kind of methods they employ and the targets the choose. Remember the carnage unleashed by just 10 of them.  Mr. Zia indicates that,  the war on terror looked different to SOME Muslims and if his use of SOME Muslims, were correct then I would have agreed with his conclusion that  Muslims had higher STAKE in war on terror. Unfortunately, it is not SOME Muslims and this showed, ironically, in the language of so called anti terror fatwas. That the TERROR of the War on Terror and the TERROR of these Fatwas  are two very different things, is obvious to all except the LIBOSECIs.

    BTW will smart counter terrorism (say SCT, Mr Zia calls it insurgency) mean catching the terrorists alive ? I wholeheartedly agree with this idea, but for a tiny issue of logistics. These Messiahs of oppressed people who strike the EVIL, in general , don’t have to relish the fruits of their fight against injustice on this earth, they are immediately taken to the heaven. So punishment after the crime can only happen in Heaven, where heathens are not allowed. So what to do? Arrest the POTENTIAL terrorists? But what next? No society (not even the uncivilized and violent Indian society, not counting the civilized LIBOSECIs) can punish someone merely because he had illegal intentions (I mean illegal as per the man made laws). So what does the police do, wait for them to act on their intention (of course there are laws on conspiracy and stuff, but what hope is there for proving the conspiracy, when proving the occurrence of crime itself is so difficult)
    Nevertheless, I eagerly look forward to your ideas on Smart counter terrorism. 

    About the perception of Muslims that in the eyes of the police, if you were a Muslim, you could be a potential terrorist. Let us assume that this perception is real, so how to change it? Where should the security forces focus their attention, may be in Botanical gardens or in public libraries? Why is it so difficult to understand that Organizations with objectives, always try to identify and focus maximum efforts on areas which offer the best chances of success. Whether it is a producer of low cost 4 wheelers  or a political outfit, their strategy will be based on identifying the target segment. We all know how Banks avoid lending to certain groups based, partly; on their own experience and partly based on perception. Now it is very fine to say everybody should be judged on the basis of his actions alone, in reality it is near to impossible and when possible, the costs are too high (yeah see the evil capitalist never losing his focus on money). You can’t expect the bankers to lend in the first instance to every member of the so called high risk groups and document individual experiences for use in their future lending decisions.  Harsh it may sound but US’ anti terror squad cannot be expected to have same focus in Japan as it has in Pakistan.

    About Batla Mr Zia thinks that either  there was something wrong  about the killings or about how people viewed police forces. Any third possibility? May be there was something wrong with those people ? After all there is (never was) no shortage of people who know for a fact that 26/11 was not what we saw. on TV or at the very least Karkare’s death was not because of those 10 or 11 terrorists? And mind you it is not just some fringe elements who possess this truth, included in the list are Editors of well known magazines, a number of Human rights professionals and the usual bunch of LIBOSECIs.

    .Based on your prescription I also am abundantly clear that demanding independent probes every time police opens fire is a form of intimidation that would rank fairly high the list of strategic options of terrorist. If your demand and the underlying logic is acceptable then what is the difference between demanding a probe for “every bullet” fired by the police and treating every Muslim as a potential Terrorist? After all the list of terrorists has people from all walks of life, qualified engineers working at top MNCs, successful practicing doctors, people from economically privileged families and in some cases young innocent looking children (as was the case in Kashmir for sometime).

    There is a line, often a thick one, between Errors and willful Misconduct. If we start subjecting surgeons to a probe for every ERROR, then the only way out for surgeons would be to run away from tricky operations. Encounters are a difficult problem and we must do all that is possible to prevent encounter of innocents, but your suggestion is as good as Insurance cover for all the terrorists. If that is what you call Smart counter insurgency, then the difference, is not of opinion, but of objectives.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS @ Bobby

    SKS – your analysis and conclusion about Zia’s thesis and LIBOSECIs are to the point.

    Zia complaints about how police and people perceive (all) Muslims as terrorists while Bobby frets about root cause.

    To Zia’s credit, he does say terrorists should be attacked; but with his guidelines and caveats, it will practically be impossible to undertake any focused progarm. As Mr Singh noted above, ZIia takes exception to the populace and police viewing Muslims with suspicion; however, he does not have any problem in lumping all members of Ithe ndian police (may be 50 lakh people all inclusive??) into “not rights-respecting” class based on the actions of a few police departments. That is a terrible double standard . it is quite possible that he, you, Bobby,a nd I are all able to participate in this wonderful forum bcause of the good work done by one of these “not-rights respecting” police officers.

    Liberals are fascinated with the root cause discussion. Instead of that, or in addition to that, the right question to ask is whether terrorism can be justified at all. Terrorism is not like other “isms’; Its violent and destructive tactics cannot be justified for any cause; terrorism cannot have any justification. Terrorism should be defined in terms of the act. that has been committed without losing the argument over intentions, motivations, ideology of the perpretators. The root cause debate really is a debate to keep the liberal community engaged in meaningless exercise because, like the definition of terrorism itself we will now start debating about what we mean by root cause of terror and that one man’s root cause may not be the other’s. All terrorists violate what they claim to be fighting for – human rights, dignity, and freedom.

    Let all of us- including LIBOSECis – keep one thing in perspective – that terrorism is only about struggles of power; that groups and individuals in the power struggle use terrorism to get their needs. This does not mean that we should not address grievances or injustices; however, we should not link them to the mission of eliminating terrorists.i

    The liberal mind is indeed in the grip of a fallacy – that terrorism can be rooted out by concessions and compromise, and by addressing the root causes. This is a fallacy because terrorist mind is absolutist and unappeasable. Pakistani Muslim terrorists want to destroy India and the western world. (and now Pakistan too it seems like the “Bhasmasura” in the Indian mythology!) Arab tMuslim terorists want to destroy Israel and will not voluntarily stop anywhere short of that. To seek to end terrorism by compromise or solving the root cause is a fallacy in logic, because it misrepresents the nature of the phenomenon with which it attempts to cope.

    All normal people, including LIBOSECIs believe in Kant’s principles – that every life is sacred for its own sake in every society, where no individual sould use others, or even himself as a means, have to be the foundations for the functioning of every society. Terrorists do not believe in this, and LIBOSECis believe Terrorists believe in this. And that is the problem.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Whether or not terrorists believe in it, its clear from the discussions here that several people here do not believe it.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    Since you are using this word terrorism; please lets have a universal definition of that term, to begin with. What is “Terrorism”, according to you? Or is it that, just as terrorism has no “root causes”, it also has no definition ?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Is killing Kaffir’s terrorism or done as per Allah’s guidelines ?

    Bobby Reply:

    yes, just as killing muslims in state sponsored riots is.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Sam

    Killing kaffirs (other than for personal vendetta etc) is terrorism; Allah or Quran does not have anything to do with it.

    Boby statement is an insinuation. He seems to imply that the government organizes targeted, unprovoked attack against Muslims. That is quite an irresponsible statement in these tense times.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    That the Shiv-Sena was involved in the Mumbai riots is well documented in the Sri krishna reports, the role of the Congress government in the Delhi Riots is also well known, and that of the BJP government in Gujarat has been attested to by several eye-witnesses as well as some police officers, and as you know also has been accepted on tape by hindutva goondas.

    Besides this, the Chattisgarh government created the Salwa-Judum, a force which has killed, looted and raped tribals in that area. India as you also know, did in the beginning support the LTTE, while Bhindranwala was a monster (partly) created by our government.

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Bobby

    You are not true to yourself. While the examples you cited are true in certain respects, you are not giving any relevance to the context, nor any distinction between party and the government.

    India never supported LTTE, except a brief period when we particpated in the peacekeeping IFPK effort. In fact, even the Indian Tamils did not support, although Karunanidhi always used it for political purposes and a wedge issue in electoral alliance. The Congress government did not have any role in the Delhi riots; congress p;oliticians of course had.. What do you expect when a well liked, extremely popular leader was shot dead in broad day light in front of cameras? You are living in a liberal wonder land if you think there will not be any reaction.
    Shiv Sena’s involvement was also a similar trigger to the Muslim riots immediately before that. Shiv Sena was not “partial” to Muslims; they had done similar ransacking of South Indians, Udipi restaurants, North Indians; it is ingenuous to attribute only “muslim hatred” to them. They are a party of hate, period. And people are deserting the party as evidenced by this weeks election results. We all know what triggered the Gujrat riot. Liberals would say that the bogey was set on fire at Godhra station by people with vested interest in starting a larger anti Muslim riot.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Singh,

    What I said was not in the context of muslims alone, as you should have realized by my citing the Sikh massacres as well.

    My point is that with any reasonable definition of “Terrorism”, not just teh Jihadists, but States, like the US, Israel, India, Pakistan, China, Russia, and many others would be qualified as having undertaken terrorist actions.

    According to the UN definition, any unlawful use of force, especially against civilians, to achieve political gains, is terrorism. I think by this definition, Most powerful states would be guilty of terrorism. Moreover the Jihadists wold be very much lower on the list, which would be topped today by the US and Israel.

    S Singh Reply:

    Mr Bobby

    Thanks for clarification.

    The UN system is totally flawed where a tinpot dictator has the same voting as USA; where five members can veto etc. However, rules are rules; I get you.

    Well, Israel will say they are doing this for self preservatiomn; that theya re surrounded by enemies. Unfortunately, the palestinians and Hezbollah from lebanon give them opportunities. .

    And US will justify they are doing all these to protect the world…

  • Bobby

    Dear SKS,

    You have already answered the question, as to why there is a need to have independent probes every time police opens fire….

    As you pointed out- “on their own experience and partly based on perception”

    The experience till date of the role of the Indian police force vis -a-vis, illegal encounter deaths, jail deaths, tortures and wrong arrests and torture under POTA, TADA etc ..has been, to put it mildly terrible. This can be seen by checking with any Human rights organization both national and international.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Spare me the Enlightenment.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    as soon as u stop writing BS here.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Here, for the benefit of those don’t still get it, are gems of wisdom, the guiding light, if you will of the LIBOSECIS.
    Quote
    “Islamic jihadist movements of today are a product of imperialist—particularly US imperialist—aggression, intervention, bullying, exploitation and suppression of the oil-rich Islamic and Arab countries of West Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, etcetera, and the persecution of the entire Muslim religious community. As part of their designs for global hegemony, the imperialists, particularly US imperialists, have encouraged and endorsed every war of brazen aggression and brutal attacks by their surrogate state of Israel.

    Our party unequivocally opposes every attack on Arab and Muslim countries and the Muslim community at large in the name of ‘war on global terror’. In fact, Muslim religious fundamentalism is encouraged and fostered by imperialists as long as it serves their interests—such as in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries, and Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan……
    ….The real terrorists and biggest threats to the country’s security are none other than Manmohan Singh, Chidambaram, Buddhadeb, other ruling class leaders and feudal forces who terrorise the people on a daily basis.

    The UPA Government had declared, as soon as it assumed power for the second time, that it would crush the Maoist ‘menace’ and began pouring in huge funds to the states for this purpose. The immediate reason behind this move is the pressure exerted by the comprador bureaucratic bourgeoisie and the imperialists, particularly US imperialists, who want to plunder the resources of our country without any hindrance. These sharks aspire to swallow the rich abundant mineral and forest wealth in the vast contiguous region stretching from Jangalmahal to north Andhra. This region is the wealthiest as well as the most underdeveloped part of our country. These sharks want to loot the wealth and drive the Adivasi people of the region to further impoverishment.
    ..Unquote

    Anyone knows who said the above? No, Comrade Bobby is NOT the right answer. Comrade ZIa is not it, either (Hint: the 1st paragraph is the red herring, the 2nd paragraph is the giveaway)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Whining and complaining that the world is against them is so ingrained in Muslim culture.

    For example..
    The FBI in US catches a would be terrorists, then see what the muslim community does..

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/after-boston-jihad-terror-arrest-massachusetts-muslims-pledge-new-cooperation-with-feds-new-anti-ter.html

    [Reply]

    Raju kurien Reply:

    Comrade Karat??????Who said he would not mind if he is nominated to be the PM???

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    :-)
    Actually it is from Ganapathi/ M Laxmana Rao, the head honcho of the CPI Maoists.. from the last week’s edition of the Open Magazine.
    I quoted him to show how chillingly familiar the line is with what we get dished out here on a regular basis from the LIBOSECIs on this blog

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Here it comes:
    A book that SMASHES the myth of Islamic Terror in India.

    By an Ex IG of Maharashtra, who obviously must have been blessed with Einstein type of Intelligence to have become an IG in a country where 80 % (sorry 3% Bramhins) of people spend their life oppressing poor Muslims. The Book is TItled: Who KILLED KARKARE?
    Conclusion: HINDUTVA TERRORISTS.

    To be honest: I think there is no need for any probe in Batla. Do you require Independent probes to prove 2+2 equals 4, Dr. Zakir has already proved that.
    Can someone send me a list of possible awards, I could nominate him for.

    Another gem from our LIBOSECIs:
    Titled : Justice for Hafiz Modi and Narendra Saeed

    Quote: Currently, Saeed has been booked in two cases under Anti-Terrorism Act in Faisalabad for making “provocative speeches, URGING PEOPLE TO WAGE A JIHAD AGAINST INFIDELS.” No self-respecting judge anywhere in the world will consider sympathizing per se with a struggle against suppression of popular aspirations in an occupied territory as terrorism. Unquote

    So you see Waging a Jihad against INFIDELS is sympathizing with a struggle against suppression of popular aspirations in an occupied territory. Incidentally what was Saeed’s (an Islamic Scholar as per the author) defence in court? I WAS ONLY URGING PEOPLE TO FOLLOW KORAN, how can that be a crime in an Islamic country like Pakistan. Hmmm

    This is height of Islamophobia.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    We have a malayalam-Sanskrit saying i n Kerala “Usnam Ushnena Shantii” meaning Islamophobia can only be solved by Muslims.

    I am for reinstituting TADA and PODA, and giving police all the tools. Excesses will happen. Our systems have the ability to analyze and correct and reform. Training and tools will minimize the excess. Fear of excess should not deter severe action. I rather have a strong police/military action (with the potential that excess or indiscriminate force may be used). Jihadism is the most coherent and deadly mass murderous ideology since Nazism; and we better use all the tools avauilable to stop and kill it. They are not even sparing Pakistan! Then what about a Kauffr country? Dithering about root causes, tying the hands of the police, Human Rights concern about the terrorist etc only further the terrorist agenda.

    And we will have a war on error after settling the war on terror. All the resources now should eb directed to hunt, kill, eradicate.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    The secular gurus of the secular site have already put their demands 1) This guy (Mushrff) should be the NSA chief 2) He should be given Bharath Ratna . They have high expectations on him; that he will smash terrorists, more importantly uncover the real terrorists.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    The answer is : Mupalla Laxman Rao

    [Reply]

  • K

    Jab soch gehri ho jaati hai, to iraade kumzor ho jaate hai !!!

    Under the garb of intellectual mumbo-jumbo, the media and elites like Bobby enjoy the freedom and security they receive from the indian state on a daily basis and then turn around and malign the same brave police officers.
    Why dont they go to some maoist stronghold or south waziristan and promote their covertly violent ideology instead ?

    I’d rather live in a safe China than live in a banana republic where maoists can conduct a press conferences and the government cannot apprehend them for fear of blue-collared terrorists, media watchDOGS and very well protected elite.

    [Reply]

  • singer

    When was it the last time you heard from your favorite telly screens or read from your printed purveyors of truth that those terrorists who booby-trap the Indian soldiers and exterminate non- Christians in the north east of India are CHRISTIANS?

    Possibly you have had no such occasion though you are sure you are being told ad nauseam that so and so terror acts are committed either by “MUSLIM’ or ‘HINDU’ terrorists as now in Goa. Why it is that murder by Christians are not actually murder by Christians and only murder by ‘NORTH EAST REBELS?

    A few days ago there was even a report which was played up in the print media about the plan of an ISLAMIC TERRORIST force to set up a MUSLIM –rashtra in the north east of India. Do you know a de facto CHRISTIAN nation has been in existence in the same region? Perhaps not, though it is a fact. I was actually damn pleased about the prospect of an Islamic nation coming up in that region. Who would not like to enjoy the good old crusades live? I am not giving up hope.

    Be that as it may, why this special vocabulary do you think? It is an old disease. Consider this:

    Those who conducted the auto da Fe and sang Te Deum are not Christians but ‘medievalists’

    Those Spaniards who butchered the Native Americans are not Christians but ‘colonists’

    Those Germans who gassed Jews are not Christians but ‘Nazis’

    Those who commit murder in Nagaland are not Christians but ‘rebels’.

    But those who commit murder in JK and those commit it in Gujarat are not Terrorists but Muslims and Hindus respectively.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Good point ……….I reckon its the predominantly christian media that’s responsible for making sure the ‘right’ words get used.

    Have you noticed how BBC always uses quotation marks around the term militants or terrorists when describing all terror acts against India ? It is disgusting !!!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims very well know what motivates those terrorists.
    It is their in their Friday Sermons and their texts..

    It is there in all the speeches given by inspirators/perpetrators where the violence is coming from.

    This is just to side step the core issue by some “soft terrorists” and they want to always muslims as the victims and misunderstood.

    With regret, Zia should be included in that category.
    These people are good at making mountains out of mole hills, wage soft jihad…always cry victimhood… condemn something but always end with “if, but, then, however,,,” words.
    (in the end those careful condemnations are not even condemnations, but just statements to mislead peaceniks from other religions..)

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Sam

    One thing we need is a gutsy government that does not care about vote bank. There should be laws like TADA, POTA etc to help police nab. I am OK with themnabbing all terrorists -whatever the religion may be.

    We also need strong border protection — I think we have that, based on the 11/26 –that they had to come by boat.
    And we need fast courts/special courts

    S Singh Reply:

    @Singer

    If the Muslim terrorists, say, were limited to Paleestine or other geographical entities, they will be most probably called with their geographical names. Even today, Palestinian terrorists are called Palestinian terrorists, very rarely are they labelled “Muslim terrorists”..

    The reason Muslim terrorists are labelled as Muslim terrorists is because of the international, pan-world nature of the phenomenon; to indicate the jehadist movement from Europe to Middle East to Asia, to establish their version of an Islamic Caliphate. The theater of operation of Naga terrorists is limited to Naagaland only and hence they are called Naga terrorists. In Norfthern Ireland, the terrorists fighting against UK are acalled IRA and not Catholic,, because they are not fighting worldwide to institurte a Catholic “Caliphate”. If Nagas were operating in US, UK, Pakistan, Egypt etc to esatblish a worldwide Catholic nation, they would be called Catholic terrorists.

    Islamic terrorism/Jehadism is the most deadly mass murderous ideology since Nazism. So, let us not bother too much about why one is labelled one way while the other one labelled a different way; and deal with this menace with full force. It is raging across the border in PAkistan; and unless we are vigilant and forceful,, it can easily spread here.

    [Reply]

    singer Reply:

    @ crazy S SIngh,

    “Islamic terrorism/Jehadism is the most deadly mass murderous ideology since Nazism.”

    Have you ever seen the mass murders commited by Nazis, if yes u would never compare nazi with some others.
    You must be out of your mind to compare those two: people killed in Holocaust and subsequent WW2 alone were around 10 million and people killed by so called “islamic terrorism” will hardly cross 20000 (not including Iraq and Afghan current civil war).
    So on what grounds are you comparing, just because this phenomenon is ocuring before your eyes it is more deadly and murderous. Dont belittle others suffering u crazy moron.

    and keep ur crazy idea in ur butts that these guys are fighting for “caliphate”

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Islamism as an idealogy caused the biggest number of deaths in the history of world.

    As per some estimates, Islam is the cause of deaths for 80 million Hindus in the whole history.

    Do not whitewash islams violent idealogy and history..

    S Singh Reply:

    @ Singer

    Yes, we are talking about present and now. World War II is past us,and you are right many were killed by Nazis, more than what Islamists have killed.

    But. my friend, you are in an illusionary world if you compare the number killed now to what happened 50 years ago. It just does not matter.

    You can drink your Kool-aid and compare to the old numbers; or do whatever you can do to control the current menace of Jehadism. If we are not vigilant enough, it will kill more than what Nazis did.

    Islamic terrorism is the most violent one since second wold war Nazism; it is for the whole world to hunt, kill, destroy these guys. It is in moderate Muslim interest that they cooperate in controlling this menace.

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim terrorists are proud to be the foot soldiers for Islam.

    Jaish-e-mohammad
    LeT
    Allah’s army,

    So many of their names and idealogy and acts are inspired by Mohd and Koran.

    They themselves will tell, that they want to establish Allah’s kingdom by exterminating Kaffirs.

    So if you do not call them Muslim terrorists, you are insulting their cause.

    When was the last time you heard other groups claiming they are fighting for Jesus and to establish global Christian empire ?

    When was the last time you heard that other Catholics, Christians from all over the world are going to NE ?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Even Zakir Naik is proud to call himself a terrorist.

    [Reply]

    indian Reply:

    Well the global christian empire is already established, what more place u want to bring christianity.Only india needs to be conquered, it will not take long!!

    NAga tribes are already converted to christians (civilized) few decades back so now fighters are needed there!!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @Sam

    The challenge is separating Islamists from Islam. The process has to come from within themselves. I am hoping that the Islamic/Taliban terrorist acts that is happening in Pakistan will result in moderates openly criticizing and ensuring thesee types of acts do n ot happen any more.

    Please read today’s editorial in Dawn. Written by an ex terrorist, who wanted to create the caliphate.. The problems are much larger, UK Muslims are behind a lot of these things.

    [Reply]

  • Kishan

    This piece reminds me of a piece that Khushwant Singh wrote at the height of militancy in Punjab in late seventies/early eighties.Similar sentiments were expressed by Khushwant Singh also.So is history repeating itself.But there seems no KPS Gill around now.And there are many who want to prosecute KPS Gill for doing what he did in Punjab.

    [Reply]

  • http://forumremaja.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6940 Jules Drumgo

    You really make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this topic to be really something which I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me. I am looking forward for your next post, I will try to get the hang of it! We must have stayed at the arcade for three or four hours that day.

    [Reply]

  • Rahul

    Thankfully I didn’t walk into one of these clinics during my recent India trip. I had a good experience getting a Lap band procedure done in India. Initially I was a little apprehensive but once I landed at the hospital, the experience turned out really well. The doctors were very professional and the infrastructure was impressive. I took help from folks at http://www.india4health.com and they helped me arrange the treatment and stay in Goa. Its been 7 months now and I look great. I wish the doctors and the staff success. Definitely visit Goa and Kerala if you get a chance… Rahul, Fiji

    [Reply]

  • Mycar Helpline

    Correct. But Hyundai has slightly priced EON higher with base variant on road price in Delhi will be close to Rs. 3 Lacs and top end variant Sportz will be above Rs.4 Lacs
    Had a test drive of Magna Option – the car is pretty fine in exteriors, looks and style but does not appeal in driving . By Spending in Rs. 3.5 Lac for Magna – you expect the car not to be too shaky while driving. Thats personal experience.

    Anyhow – for detailed review of Eon and comparison with Maruti Alto may refer the New Car section :- http://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.php?option=com_newcar&view=category&Itemid=2&brand=2

    [Reply]

  • Lp_7

    Having seen the Eon it in detail along with the pricing, I would immediately say that Alto will still have its market. You mention that even “Maruti knows that Eon is better than the Alto” – why shouldn’t it be. The Alto design is more that 6 years old!! Wait and see the new Alto when it comes out in 2012. It will be better that the Eon. Just because the design of the Eon is so called “fluidic” in nature, does not mean it is superior to the Alto. Yes, it looks more modern (probably) – but as a prospective car buyer, I would still say that the Alto is my choice. I have driven the Alto and it is superb with a reasonable fuel consumption. I do not quite see the Eon out doing it in performance. Also, to my understanding, Maruti has quite few a tricks up its sleeve. Wait and watch.

    [Reply]

  • Ramesh Talwani

    MR WANGCHUK ,WHY DONOT YOU ALSO THINK GOOD OF NATION. IF SO DO YOU APPROVE THE APPROACH OF MANAGEMENT OF YOUR PAPER.
    BE HONEST AND ANSWER PLEASE.

    [Reply]

  • http://profiles.google.com/mathewselene Selene mathew

    Eon is a big step up in terms of styling and performance. Highlighted by its contemporary appearance and upscale and roomy interior design.
    Car Buying Guide

    [Reply]

  • http://www.blurbpoint.com/link-building-services.php Link Building Services

    Totally agree with one sentence that think good and act good. As whatever we think that happen to us and we allow our selves to build as that. And in thinking , positive thinking always be helpful for the own growth. One which used to think positively can find half of his/her work done itself without any effort and not need to get any stress for it. And apart from the thinking , one thing more which impact on human self is the vision. From which side of the thing we learn the more is also matter to build the pure soul and self.

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XAVBIBSZW4ITEUU7A4MJXBIXVU Saahil

    Whatever it is, instead of spending Rs. 3.5 Lac on 796CC engine , its preferable to go in for the second hand car.. May be a Honda City 2006 model seems a better bet now or even the Old verna is available at such a price tag.. What say, checked this all at latest stocks at http://www.usedcarindelhi.com/

    [Reply]

  • SADHU-VEDANT-MUNI

    the planning commission and other agencies are playing the datas. they are lining in dreams like MUNGERILAL KE HSEEN SAPNE, the naked truth the officials and politicians and ministers are not purchasing any thing from their pockets and secondly they are so highly paid so prices are in effective to them. they have no idea what is the poverty.सब कुछ हमारे देश में रोटी नहीं तो क्या, वादा लपेट लो लंगोटी नहीं तो क्या.they are taking a bread with other items like salads, butter, fruits and dry fruits so they think that one bread is sufficient where as poor taking breads with salt and onions. he not able to take drinking water where they are getting/ suing mineral waters.सब कुछ लुटा के बैठी हैं एक लड़की अपने कोठे में , मुझे याद आती हैं कितनी ताकत होती हैं एक रोटी में.today you can not get poison in that amount. now a days if you are hunger no body will give you bread. if you will be KASAB so you will be known as govt’s property for his securies they are spending millions of rupees on him. is there poverty. so it is the duty of the govt to see the naked truth in grass root level. if not crime rates will increase and people will interested to go jail happily where they will be more secured. so try to understand the beauty of poverty. if not revolution will be there.

    [Reply]

  • Rahuuul Sharma

    Please check the Ownership threads on Hyundai Eon, I hope this would help you to understand you need according to your budget and features list.
    http://www.indiagarage.com/thread15750.html

    [Reply]