Hindustan Times
A postcard from India’s Northeast
History is bu-ran-ji in Assamese, the only word from the now-extinct Tai tribal language of the Ahom people — who ruled Assam’s Brahmaputra valley between the 13th and 18th century — to have survived. Assamese replaced Tai in the early 19th century.
The word is sometimes used in plural — bu-ran-jis, small booklets of records maintained by the Ahoms. Assam’s buranji is one of a unique model of communitarian harmony the rest of India has hardly heard of.
It was a blitzkrieg-like attack on immigrant Muslims from Bangladesh in the plains of Nellie on February 18, 1983 killing 1,400 that threatened to give Assam a bad name it never had — communal clash.
An uprising led by the All Assam Students’ Union in the early Eighties suddenly appeared to have taken a nasty communal turn.
Two analogous religious movements, one led by Shrimanta Shankardev and the other by Azaan Fakir, have had tremendous historical significance for Assamese, both Hindus and indigenous Muslims. The two are similar movements presaged on the oneness and omnipresence of God and both conveyed messages of peace and tolerance.
Shankardev, Madhavdev and Damodardev, along with Azaan Fakir, are considered great spiritual gurus of Assam, whose harmonising influence has produced one of the most tolerant societies of modern India. The namghors or prayer halls established by Shankardev could be entered by any one. Caste was no bar. And legend has it that the main pillar, locally called Lai Khuta, of namghors are installed by Muslims, amid recitations from the Quran. Such is the unity.
Azaan Fakir’s real name was Shah Milan and he hailed from Baghdad. In the 17 th century, he set sail for India as a Sufi wanderer, stayed at the Khwaja Garib Nawaz Moinuddin Chisti darhag at Ajmer Sharif and also at Nizamuddin Dargah in New Delhi before heading for Assam.
In Assam, he gave clarion calls for prayers (azaan) and is said to have strengthened Islam, earning his famous nickname. He composed devotional songs called zikirs, which have been sung by leading artistes, including Dada Saheb Phalke winner Bhupen Hazarika. Zikirs are routinely broadcast by the All India Radio’s Guwahati and Dibrugarh stations.
Assam’s Hindus and Muslims are steeped in Assamese nationalism and culture. Bihu, the great Assamese national festival, is celebrated all over Assam since BC 2500-3000 and both Hindus and Muslims take part in it.
It is very difficult to distinguish Muslims and Hindus of Assam. Both share similar lifestyle, dress code and food habits, except that Assamese Muslims are beef-eaters.
When Nellie happened, many suspected that there was an “outside” hand. The All Assam Students’ Union or the AASU may have played into communal hands. Some put the blame on the RSS and other Hindutva organisations. Others blamed the Indira Gandhi regime for allegedly having organised the killings to divide the state along communal lines and to end the “oil blockage” by the protesting students’ union.
The AASU is an avowedly secular organisation on paper and in spirit but a communal infiltration into its rank and file is suspected. Some prominent Assamese Muslim intellectuals had supported the six-year Assam agitation against Bangladeshi migrants, most notably Dr Ashraf Ali, who was principal of the Cotton College in state capital Guwahati and one of my mother’s uncles, and Ahmaada Rasul, who was principal of Handique Girls College, Guwahati.
As somebody born on the bank of the Brahmaputra and a proud Assamese, I have always felt that unchecked and unaccounted migration poses security and demographic challenges to the native Assamese population.
Take a look at Europe. The French language is commonly spoken by many Austrians. Europe has a common currency, besides the European Union. Yet, borders of the individual countries have not melted away. Therefore, infiltration from across Bangladesh — of both Muslims and Hindus — has to be checked. This, every native Assamese son of the soil will tell you. My feelings are no different. But that is no reason to alienate Muslim immigrants who have passed some respectable time on this side of the border.
Assam may be beset with its many problems, including militancy and intra-tribal fights, but preserving its glorious traditions of harmony is of utmost importance.
(8 votes, average: 3.5 out of 5)
Loading ...Posted by Zia Haq on Sunday, October 4, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Filed under India · Tagged AASU, ahom, All Assam Students’ Union, Assam, assamese, Azaan Fakir, Bangladesh, Bhupen Hazarika, buranji, communal clash, communitarian harmony, history, immigrant Muslims, Nellie, Shankardev, Tai
Illegal migration from Bengla Desh, and our political authorities looking the other way clearly caused the problem. Now they are a big vote bank, nothing could bedone.
Assam’s greenery is going to be blood stained for a long time.
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webmail1 Reply:
October 5th, 2009 at 6:03 am
Before that we have to check mass conversion in North East. And stop more terrorist being made in NE who works against India. Their native culture is destroyed forever in the process of conversion!! It shud be checked first.
regarding bangladeshi migration this is same problem like biharis in Maharashtra, cos 60 yrs ago we were on….and this immigration is just a propaganda to harass people in Assam. The bong hindus and muslims living there in Assam since centuries!!! This spillover to Assam is from centuries as they are neighbours. nobody knows how many bangalis were there 100 yrs back.. this artificial boundary is not gonna stop anything!! and division was not perfect either!!
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singer Reply:
October 5th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Yes you are true the immediate need in the NE is to stop missionary influence!!
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Anil Reply:
October 5th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Biharor UP in Mumbai si same as bangladeshi in India.. I belive you need yoru head examined asap..
one is legally in mumbai another is illegally in India lok fo the meanign of legal and illegall in dictionary..
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Rajeev Reply:
October 6th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Anil,
I don’t agree with your UP and Bangladeshi comparison.
If you go around in maharashtra, except for a very small marathi population in urban areas, most of the people are very polite to outsiders.
Don’t buy Raj Thakre’s trash. He is nothing but a lowlife goonda.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/two-crore-illegal-bangla-migrants-600-deported-last-year-states-report/524777/
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Sam Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Is Zia part of the covert operation to create Mughalistan..
Why is he supporting illegal immigrants who are a burden to the country..
Why doesnt he lead an effort to push out those illegals back into B’desh ?
Before you call it scare mongering, please read all the details put in the article.
http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php
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as long there are communities. communal tensions is a given.
for a minute, put aside the liberal goggle and see the reality in the dream of two communities living together peacefully . is it not a sheer foolhardy to think and believe so.
solution is not the communal harmony. because it is not possible. the very existence of communities warrants tension.
solution is abolish the communities. no communities, no communal tension.
and a religious community is the most absurd of them all
because spirituality is - an individuals effort to grow in consciousness.
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Forgive me if I sound dumb, but are you supporting illegal migrants? (& does the cast matter??)
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I fully agree with Zia that “that there is no reason to alienate Muslim immigrants who have passed some respectable time on this side of the border”
Where I don’t agree is when he says infiltration from across Bangladesh
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Where I don’t agree is when he says infiltration from across Bangladesh
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Anil Reply:
October 5th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Please understand it involves muslims and you don;t expect unequivocal denuncication of bangladeshi from a muslim writer .. do you..
there are writers like Jawed Naqvi who make apologies even on behalf of Pakistan let alone bangaldesh.. in their world view all porblem flows from RSS .. Muslim league ( predatign Jan sangh) pakistan bangaldesh all these entities are saintly..
BTW I aslo not agrree with accusation on RSS.. Congressi have presided over 60 thousand riots and every time they blame someone.. Even someoen as eminent as Manmmohan Singh used to go around acusing RSS for genocide of sikh in 1984.. Later on though he apologized for that genocide.. Now question to be asekd is whether that apology was on behalf of Rajeev Gandhi or RSS
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Sam Reply:
October 6th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Why should anyone say that this party or that party is responsible for riots.
If someone in power can be held responsible for riots, then let us analyze what power Koran has in muslim power.
Koran has presided over millions of riots and close to 300 million peoples death (all over the world, after koran came into picture..)
I am firm believer that there will be no peace as long Koran is paid importance…
It is like Mein Kampf to Nazis.
So either Nazis have to be defeated or mein kampf to be banned (in some countries atleast)..
until atleast either one happens, there will not be peace in world.
(then after that, there may be another prophet with some other stupid religion of course…
mankind has to keep eternal vigil against false prophets of death…)
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Exactly how many communla riots the socalled secular congress party has presided really….
BTW Bangaldeshis should stil nto be welcomed if muslims of assam really have soft corner for India..
Reminds me of the IMDT act which congressi played politics with.. in nutshele congressi wanted to make bangaldeshi illegal aliens special citizen in a way unlike other illegal alieans proof od illegality was put on police not on the person.. Think it like you land somehow illegally in USA and then challenge USa govt to rpove your illegality if they can;t then you remain citizen of USA..
This nonsense was given specailly to bangaldeshi illegal migrants who might I add are at the forfront of ISI network in India……..
Congress as usual is sacrificing national integrity for some cheap political gains.. Although SC gave them rap on knuckle but still congresis nonsense is continuing unabated
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So Censorship is in full BLOOM.
GOOD GOING
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As usual there is no sterm support of idnian govt’s stand mind you SC endorsed stand that illegal bangaldeshis shoudl eb thrown out fo india.. just because few fo them are nto busy with bleeding idnia through isi doesn;t make them legal indina citizen.. thrown them out.. Author being a muslim canl;t bring himself to unequivcally denouce these illegal bangaldeshis..
HTalking fo Hindus well there is religious persecution of hindus in bangaldesh going on.. First law minister of Pakistanleft that country citing this reaosn and nothgin has changed since then.. OS hindus from bangaldesh can make a case of refugee by virtue of persecution and hindus didn;t ask for separate state so even on that count their entry seems logical..
Although i would like them to fight the musliam marauders in bangalfesh and INdia shoudl provide them all support.. why act like chicken and run..
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Where I don’t agree is when he says infiltration from across Bangladesh
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What does Zia mean when he says Muslim migrants “who have spent respectable time” should not be harassed… they should be deported if they are illegal.
Many Bengla Deshis are part of the Radical Islam movement; and radical Islam is the single most dangerous thing India faces.
Our political class and the secular chattering class tries to dismiss he radical Islam saying ‘terrorism has no religion”.
Our leaders treat national security as a political game when they close their eyes to illegal immigration from Bengla Desh so that they can cultivate vote banks. And our secularists add to the problem when they say, “now they are here, we have to treat them with kid gloves”
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Sam Reply:
October 6th, 2009 at 4:37 am
Zia would fit perfectly with politician class.
Maybe one day he wants to become one.
So he is cultivating muslim vote banks already…
Every little thing has to looked from muslim angle (even if there is no religious angle) and muslims need sympathy, money, special rights..
if they do not have special rights, secularism is in danger.
if you ask for equal rights, they you are a anti-muslim or hindutva brigade.
but if you keep subsidizing Haj, let muslims have 4 wifes, special class of people with special rights…then secularism is working and the country will be unified.
otherwise, the country is in danger…
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Have anyone given a thought to the scenario when half of the Bangladesh goes under the sea due to global warming?
India should be ready for this disaster in next 25-50 years. I am pretty sure either we will lose northeast to China-Bangla combine or Bangladeshis will flood India in large number. There will be two times increase in muslim population in just one year.
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Sam Reply:
October 6th, 2009 at 4:33 am
or possibly “swine flu” could lessen the impact or global warming (land submersion in bangladesh)….
with all the islamist terrorist acts, they have collectively lost any sympathy or acceptance by the rest of the world.
It will be paid back in different ways, like if a particular disease hurst gulf regions/muslims, world will be less alarmed.. (like aids was portrayed as Gay related and had less urgency initially)…
with each terrorist acts, the world has less and less goodwill towards islam and it probably will haunt them when there are hard times/disaster..
when tsunami happened, all the rich arab sheikhs hardly gave any money…
they do nothing, even for fellow non-arab muslims (if not related to religious propagation..)
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Fill in the blanks:
“I don’t want any of them here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty… It makes no difference whether he is an —– citizen, he is still a —— . ————- citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty… But we must worry about the ————- all the time…..”
Can any one guess who is saying this about whom?
Sound identical to the diatrabe about muslims these days.
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My personal view is that one has to be very careful when one is dealing with immigrants. We have to show some kind of understanding about their plight, and not just take blind action in the name of “security”.
Firstly I think its going to be hard to deport people like that. These are people who speak bengali, and therefore deportation could be misused as an instrument of vendetta against poor Indian bengali speaking muslims. This is the biggest worry.
Secondly, I agree with Zia that people who have been staying in India for a reasonable period of time should not be deported. This would be a very dirty thing to do, and, in my opinion, a violation of Human rights.
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Sam Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 3:26 am
Indians are some of the poorest in the world.
Hindus are the poorest religious group in the whole world.
Muslims can be taken care by their saudi masters.
They are some of the richest in the whole world.
So poor Hindus, need to worry about their own survival first and foremost.
help a fellow human, only their own survival..
remember the camel head in the tent story.
already Ghazni’s santan are taking over the subcontinent.
before you feel empathy/sympathy worry about our own religous poor people..
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While in general I agree with Zia that “that there is No Reason to alienate Muslim immigrants who have passed some respectable time on this side of the border, I strongly oppose the condition requiring, passage of Respectable Time on this side of the border.
Going further I agree, with Mr. Zia that infiltration from across Bangladesh (BD)— of Hindus — has to be checked. However, I vehemently oppose the idea Muslim Infiltration should be CHECKED. This is exactly what Rabid Hindutva Fascists want; actually, they want to STOP it completely, apart from deporting those who are already here.
In my opinion Muslim infiltration should actually be encouraged, (we should design an attractive package, including reservations, economic support for a minimum period of 10 years and similar stuff) because of following reasons:
One Muslims, by leaving B’desh for India, are in effect voting AGAINST the pernicious two-nation theory of Rabid Hindu Fascists. Secondly, increase in Muslim population will not only improve our diversity, but also strengthen secular forces. The argument that EU countries are yet to allow unfettered immigration is fundamentally unsound. India should take the lead on here and become a shining example for the western nations to follow. Above all, OPEN BORDERS are ultimately in India’s long term economic interest, as has been demonstrated in case of Foreign Direct Investment, Trade etc.
On the other hand, if Hindu infiltration is not checked comprehensively, we can expect serious repercussions on many areas. For one our DIVERSITY Index will go down, which is not good for a country aspiring to set an example for the other emerging multi-cultural, secular countries. Second, it will also strengthen the Rabid Hindutva Fascists. Even more important is the wider implication of Hindus infiltrating into India, as this would then be a vote in FAVOUR of two-nation theory.
Jai India
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Ashish Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 11:34 am
@SKS
I remember your narrative about this cute lil thing on radio who got shouted down by RJ when she declared her undying love for Ajmal-Bhai..
if you ever get in touch (with the cute little thing) please tell he that her man is ranked a lowly 5th
http://gulbadan.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/top-5-sexiest-pakistani-terrorists/
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SKS Mumbai Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
That was brilliant. Of course, there is another one on that blog, who declared her weak(ed)knees for the Oh soooooooo Cute no. 5. Clincher :No facial hair
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Ashish Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
@SKS,
Excellent idea with just one significant flaw. What would happen if by your above stratagem, Bangladesh becomes a Hindu majority nation? I am sure you would not want such a fate to befall my ancestral homeland.
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SKS Mumbai Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 11:56 am
@Ashish
No probs in that case, we can declare it SECULAR
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Very interesting… see this article from IE a couple of years back; Dr Ashraf Ali is referred to.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dont-club-us-with-migrants-say-assamese-muslims/234146/
The Assamese Muslims are caught in a dilemma. Till a few decades ago, they were identified as any other ethnic Assamese. With migration from Bangladesh taking enormous proportions, the Assamese Muslims are feeling threatened about their identity.
“People refer to us as minority because the migrants have become politically important,” says Nekibur Zaman, a Guwahati-based lawyer, who wants to float a forum to safeguard the rights and identity of Assamese Muslims.
……
They are accusing political parties of caring too much about the Muslims of migrant origin and in the process neglecting the Assamese Muslims.
…….Zaman feels the migrant Muslims have become important for political parties and governments because they constitute a huge votebank. “Our people are scattered all over the state. We don’t constitute a vote-bank,” he said.
Muslims constitute a little over 30 per cent of Assam’s 2.66 crore population. Bulk of these Muslims are of migrant origin and are today the deciding factor in at least 30 of the state’s 126 Assembly segments. They are the majority in six districts.
Another group dismisses such fears as “unfounded” and “in bad taste”. “The Sachar Committee has aptly said that Muslims have been historically backward in almost every aspect all over India. Thus it is incorrect and unfortunate that some people are trying to find fault with one section of Muslims,” says a joint statement issued by three leading educationists in the state — Ashraf Ali, Abdul Mannan and Abul Lais. Ali is a former principal of Cotton College in Guwahati, and the other two are professors of Gauhati University.
Their statement has annoyed another group, the All Assam Garia-Moria-Deshi Jatiya Parishad, that claims to represent a major section of Assamese Muslims. “There is no denying the fact that the Assamese Muslims have been neglected. But it is also a fact that all government facilities and schemes are only aimed at benefiting the migrant Muslims,” said Azizur Rahman Saikia of the Parishad.”
We have Mr Azizur Rahman Saikia and Mr Nekibur Zaman voicing apprehensions of the “outsiders”..however, was such a large scale migration possible over the years without there being active connivance from the local Muslims? Now, all we can say to them, is sorry but, you brought it upon yourself.
Of course the learned Profs (Ali, Mannan and Lais) are in favour of the Indian state extending a warm welcome to all Muslims, irrespective of where they are from. Inclusive growth has a new definition; all Muslims, irrespective of where they are from must grow and prosper and the Indian state must help them. Their loyalty is to the Muslim Um-mah; not to the state of Assam and far less to the Indian nation.
True to form.
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@AShish
Dr Ali of cottobn College (whom you have referred in your note) is Zia’s uncle. However, Zia in his blog says Ali was against Bengla Desh migrants. So, who is cotrrect? IE or Zia?j
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@Gopi,
The last 2 paragraphs of my note are written by me; the rest are verbatim from the IE story.
I think Assam’s traditions of peaceful co-existence is not in doubt. It is also a fact that Prof Ali signed a petition in support of the Assam agitation.
However, if you permit, here’s my take on those days..
It was impossible for a Bengali to not oppose the “Assam agitation” as it was known in West Bengal those days; a movement that was rather stupidly, in my opinion seen as anti-Bengali rather than anti-outsider. Bengalis of West Bengal, by their intemperate pronouncements and led by the sensation mongering vernacular press of West Bengal (read the ABP group, denounced the Assam agitation and thereby managed to turn the prevailing sentiments in Assam anti-Bengali.
I say all this just so that you begin to understand that it was impossible to be in Assam in those days, especially in Academics and not support the AASU. You would have been socially boycotted, at the very least.
But, couple of decades down the line; with AASU no longer the force they once was, Assam is joining the national mainstream in pandering to the Muslim Ummah.
I am far more familiar with the situation in West Bengal; where the situation is if anything, even more alarming because of the un-checked influx of Bangladeshis. What was CPM votebank has now become Mamata’s votebank; they are never without patronage.
There are 2 crore Bangladeshis in our country.. I for one, want them out.
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Zia Haq Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
@Ashish, @Gopi:
A few things that I would like to clarify and reiterate.
a) There is a clear divide between Assamese indigenous Muslims and immigrants. Trust me, it takes an Assamese or some years of living in the state to understand the complexity of the problem. One example: In most Assembly constituents of my home state, whereever there is a Muslim candidate of immigrant origin, immigrant-origin voters tend to vote only him or her and not the indigenous Muslim candidate. Indigenous Muslims, like Nekibur Zaman for instance (who I personally know), are opposed to illegal migration.
b) Ashish tends to conclude that academics like my uncle Dr Ali supported the AASU (and I do not know about the IE story but I do know he was one of the many Muslims who signed the original first petition supporting the AASU’s movement against illegal immigrants) because otherwise they would have been socially boycotted. This as usual casts doubts on their integrity just because they happen to be Muslims — a sign of habitual bias. People like Dr Ali took to the streets and many had to go without pay. Yet, their intentions are needlessly doubted.
c) Ashish also feels that immigration was possible because of ummah affiliation and connivance of local Muslims. Well, please do not forget two things. 1) the IMDT ACT — a clearly flawed and biased legislation (drafted by the then Congress minister in the Hiteswar Saikia Cabinet, A.B. Mazumdar) that puts the onus on proving the nationality of a suspect on the prosecuation, and hence difficult, as opposed to the foreigners act where the suspect has to prove that he is not a foreigner — and 2) a porous border were two major factors that enabled unchecked migration.
Since you raise the ummah point, I feel compelled to state that please do not forget that the government that implemented the IMDT Act to protect Bangladeshi Muslim migrants was led by a Hindu chief minister heading a Hindu majority government. If you do not know the role played by the notorious IMDT Act in aiding illegal migration, you know nothing about Assam.
d) My point about not alineating migrants who have spent some ‘respectable time’: Well, the AASU and the government have long agreed on a cut -off date (1971 if I remember correctly). Any one migrating post this date should be liable to be deported and all such migrants were categorised as D category voters (D for doubtful status). This is the AASU’s stand and mine too. I was a card-holding AASU member during some time I spent as a college student in Guwahati before moving out for higher studies. I was especially active as a cultural activities. You cannot wish away the fact that before division this was one country, and like Pakistan, roots lie strewn across the border. But once an international border takes effect, it has to have its sanctity. Therefore, illegal migration is not acceptable.
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Sam Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 7:37 am
everyone agrees illegal migration is not acceptable.
The contention or lack of plan is
1. how to identify illegals who are already in india
2. once identified how to push them back ?
3. how to effectively stop the future illegals..
What are your solutions ?
other than saying let them live in india (it may a different solution from you if they are not muslims)
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
@ Sam
Why dont you outline how these can be implemented. Hopefully, through discussions, we can fine tune them.
It looks like there is a brroad agreement on the problem and the reasons. Come up with something, even if it will address only 50-60% of the illegals.
Ashish Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 11:12 am
@Zia,
a) I agree with you, one hundred percent. In fact, this is the logical conclusion that can be drawn from the IE story.
b) Zia, my intention was not to make personal attacks and my unreserved apologies if it sounded like that. However, I grew up in Calcutta (still can’t bring myself to say Kolkata!) during those days and I know the role played by the Bengali media (I can’t talk about English media in Calcutta, as I was strictly mono-lingual then) to whip up passions against all Assamese. All Bengalis, irrespective of class, creed, religion were solidly rooting for their co-linguists. It quite definitely had repurcussions in Assam. My point about Assam is similar. A complex web of politico-religious nexus aided and abetted illegal migrants and now, Mr. Zaman and others are waking up, but probably too late.
I can vouch from personal experience that when I first met an Assamese in college, our first meeting was anything but cordial; the distrust was mutual.
However, I do have many Assamese friends (including the above Bordoloi who now is a Prof in US and we are still in touch), acquired in college and workplace since those days in the eighties and based on our discussions, I don’t think I am wrong in stating that the Assam agitation acquired many overtones; Bengali vs Assamese, Hindu vs Muslim, outsider vs indigenous.. I went back and re-read Asghar Ali Engineer’s on-the-spot assessment of the situation on the ground and I think he also says it was extremely complex and volatile. In fact, it is a wonder that Assam has pulled itself back from the brink since those days; reading Mr. Engineer’s account from 25 years back, you can only marvel.
c) The migration from the across the border happens owing to people’s desire to a make a better life for themselves. However, as in West Bengal (or anywhere else in the world), the presence of local sympathisers is the single most abetting factor. It is so across the Mexican border and it is so across the Indo-Bangladesh border. In West Bengal, it started more as a pan-Bengali sentiment.. since the 1971 war, the migration has only increased and now it is an organized racket with active connivance of the politician-criminal nexus.
I consider that act as a bad compromise thrust upon a naive AGP/ AASU leadership by the Congress.
It is not my point that a Hindu administration is more or less complicit; the CPM in Bengal (except for a couple of ministers, largely all Hindus) has actually encouraged the maximum number of illegal migrants. Now, those same guys are voting against the CPM and for Mamata. And, Zia, I have made the point before, the Congress is the worst enemy of the Muslim Indians.. I wonder when you guys will wake up. I do know about IMDT
The Ummah point riles; I know it does. But, again, if we Bengalis do not learn to think of yourself as Indians first and foremost and Muslims in India feel so emotionally charged about their co-religionists anywhere and everywhere, we will soon reach a point of no-return. Mr Zaman and Mr Saikia need our support. At least they are squarely seeing the issue as outsider vs insider and Mr Saikia clearly wants the development funds to reach the non-migrants. Dr Ali et al, want all Muslims to be targeted. All I am saying is, they have come a long way from the original AASU position.
d) Your point of roots across borders is well taken; my roots are in Bangladesh too. My great grandfather migrated to Calcutta in 1920s. But, we need to stop the flow. Even if we stop now, even if I want everything rolled back to 1971, it won’t happen (I think you and I know that). But, can we start now?
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Thanks, Ashish. You are right about the magnitude of the problem..
Successive central governments, mainly Congress, have made the situation totally out of control. 30 million illegals from Bangla Desh live in our country, mostly in West Bengal, Assam, Tripura,
and Bihar. Even a well-off country like USA, is struggling with the 40 million illegal immigrants they have. The drain on public expenditures, health, education etc is killing their already worsening economy. In our case, combine all these problems with the possibility of potential terrorism bases, and cross border terror training.
The implications are huge. Pakistan advocates always wanted Lower Assam and its rich natural resources to be included in Pakistan. It was Lokpriya Gopinath Bordoloi’s vehement opposition that made Assam part of india. Obviously, BanglaDesh, may still have that “larger BanglaDesh” dream as well as a plan to achieve that. Send illegals to india/to Assam!.
The IMDT enacted by congress in 1983 has not done anything to stem the infiltration; rather it has helped illegals to settle! Marxists and Congress have done everything to make these people “legal” so they can vote. As Ashis said, now it is Mamata’s turn.
General Sinha’s 1997 report should be an eye opener for all who love this country. He talks about demographic shift, population increase, security implications and the destabilizing impact of this uncheckered infiltration.
The large number of Bengla Deshi’s provide an easy hiding environment for the terrorists crossing teh border to India. The population shift and growth will create a bleeding state; worse than Kashmir. It is in political Muslims’ modus operandi to ask for district, state, country; and unless the Indian polity is careful and nip these in the bud, we can see all these happening in our generation or our children’s generation. Terrorist groups nurtured in Pakistan and Bengla Desh will have little trouble attarcting local accomplices among the migrants; legal or illegal.
Now the political parties have pampered them, how do we get rid of this problem? How do we deport 2.5 crore people? Whoever was deported has come back.
I will advocate POTA to be reinstated in the NE States as long as the illegal infiltrators are here. Moving them from Muslim concentrated (they will anyway complain about ghettos!) localities to various parts of the countrty should also be explored.
We have to think seriosuly and come up with ideas to solve this and make sure that the political class implments meaningful controls. Our government has failed miserably in protecting its citizens.
West Bengal, Assam, and Tripura should be under military rule until the illegal migrant issue is settled. Military will make sure there is no further encroachment. They will also make sure law and oredr and security issues are handled without political considerations. I do not know whether our constitution has a clause where a state can be administered by the military. But these are the times to think “outside the box”. Liberals and libertarians will crow over these.. I am really afraid for the country. If we do not implement bold steps now, or just piecemeal **** like IMDT, we sure will be impacted by Kargill like intrusions from our eastern neighbor, a revolt for a separate state or a country on Brahmaputra valley by these Muslim migrants and their fellow sympathisers, or a slow bleeding where populace and govt get fed up. Osama bin Laden and some of the Muslims are planning their own “long term” plan; they do not care a hoot for liberty, secularism, equal right, constitutional protection. (by the way) I read somewhere that the emperor Akbar is banned from the Pakistani history text books because he was not sufficiently anti-Hindu!)
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Ashish Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 9:49 am
@Gopi,
one of the largest concentrations of illegal migrants is in Delhi. Large tranches of land in Yamuna River banks are taken over.. there are markets in some localities where the lingua franca is Bengali.. if you ask them where they are from, they are all from Malda or Murshidabad
Malda and Murshidabad are traditionally Muslim strongholds… but, the border is porous all the way thrrough
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Ashish Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Also, understand that the self-styled Bengali intellectuals (again on the pay of the ABP group) has an economic interest in pandering to Bangladeshis.
All the leading writers in Bengal see is their readership across the river (potentially a larger market than in their home state).
Bengali readership in west bengal is declining; but it is only increasing in Bangladesh. So, why not pander to a pan-Bengali identity for a few pieces of silver?
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Ashish Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
and, finally.. before I get back to work, see this map of West Bengal
http://www.bengalgenocide.com/index.php
Bobby Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
I think it has been well established by now, that there exists a correlation between poverty and higher population growth. I don’t think one can make a case for any correlation between religion and population growth.
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@Bobby Correlation between religion/pop growth
There seems to be a correlation between religious affiliation and population growth. I am not sure whether any demographic/statistical studies hve been done on this; however anecdotal evidence points to this.
A Kerala example provides a background. Malappuram district, covering Muslim majority areas, was formed 40 years ago in Kerala as an appeasement to Muslims by the then Marxist government of Kerala. Kerala’s population grew 9..5% in 10 yrs from 1991 to 2001 (from 29MM to 32MM); while Malappuram (69% Muslims) grew 17.2% , or almost double the overall Kerala rate, from 3.07MM to 3.63MM. In otherwords, 20% of all the population growth happened in Malappuram district.. The 2007 fertility rate for all Kerala was 1.6; and for Malappuram it was 3.7.
Now Malappuram is not a distant island; however, the literacy and other social revolutions happening in Kerala seem to miss Malappuram; although I should say they have made progress from the 1991 census. The only explanation, purely from a Kerala context (because of the general leevl of education, womens empowerment etc) is religion - as to the acceptance of family planning.
I will bet that Murshidabad and other high concentartion Muslim districts where the Bengla Desh infiltrants live will have a much higher rate of reporduction than Malappuram, Kerala, because of the lower levels of education, poverty etc coupled with the Muslim attitudes towards family planning..
One has to evaluate Bengla Desh infiltration of 25 million people in future terms with a population growth rate twice that of Malappuram. .
Bobby Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/34734/
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 12:27 am
I went through the 2001 Census of Kerala and India, and on the surface, Muslim concentrated areas do have significantly larger population growth (including the relatively prosperous South).
The three districts that had more than 10% or more growth in population in 10 years were eitehr Muslim majority (like Malappuram) or a high percentage Muslims (Kasargode 12.3% growth in population) and Waynad (17% growth in population). The lowest population growth in Kerala was in Pathanamthitta disrtrict , with only 3.72% growth over 10 years. That also happens to be the district with the lowest Muslim population (6%).
Now, if one looks at the census of otehr Indian states, one see a similar pattern. Muslim concentrated states indicate a higfher population growth comapred to others - Uttar Pradesh 10 year pop growth was 23%, West Bengal 18%, vand Bihar 24%.
If poverty is a factor, Orissa should have had similar population growth — however, Orissa had only 15% growth. And one would expect Punjab to have even lower than Orissa, because Punjab is much richer than orissa- Punjab population grtowth was 16%.
So, in the Indian context, based on the census numbers of literate, socially progressive, rich, and poor states, it looks like that states with large Muslim population or districts with large Muslim population outpace others in population growth. The 25 million Bengla Deshi illegals living in concentrated areas can be expected to follow the sam,e pattern.
Pakistan’s 10 year growth in population is 33%; and Bengla Desh is 37%..
S Singh Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 4:09 am
@Gopi @ Bobby @ Ashish
Although it sounds logical that high growth in population is related to poverty levels; I also think “believers” in Islam do tend to have a higher growth rate. Saudi Arabia’s population increase over the last ten years was 35%, or 3.5% annual growth rate, which is considered quite high. And Saudi Arabia is not a poor country!
Bobby Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Gopi,
Please show me an article either from a newspaper or from journals which show what you said.
@ S Singh: There are cultural reasons as well as economic reasons behind high population growth.
Ashish Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 10:16 am
@S Singh
, albeit of a kind that is more commonly found in Amartya Sen’s lost homeland.
Agree.
Please do also understand that the census most probably fails to capture these 2-3 crore illegal migrants until decades later (in Zia’s words “a respectable time” ).. because of the shadowy nature of their existence.
Every time the Delhi government “regularizes” un-authorized colonies, along with Bihari and UP migrants, lots of Bangladeshis acquire legitimacy.
I had a hilarious discussion with a Bihari friend a couple of days back (after his throat being suitably “lubricated”) who insisted that the CM of Delhi in 2020 will speak Bhojpuri or Maithili. Both of us sobered up when I countered that the CM in 2030 will probably speak Bengali
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
@Bobby
Census figures are public. you can google specific state, or India as a whole. The hypothesis is my own based on the actual numbers in rich/poor states, educated state etc
Bobby Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Gopi,
I did not mean the numbers, but rather the conclusions you draw.
I think given the fact that the muslim community is economically as well as educationally backward, its only to be expected that there will be a higher growth rate among them.
The way you are drawing conclusions is completely unscientific. To isolate the correlation between religion and growth rate, one has to do a much more rigorous scientific analysis. First remove all other factors like social, educational and economic differences, and then take data from the class of people with these other backgrounds exactly the same.
Most conclusions based on unscientific collection and analysis of data usually prove to be wrong on further critical analyses.
My question to you was , whether you know of any such scientific study by any research group either directly in journals, or quoted in any newspaper?
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Bobby
It is my conjecture only.
On the surface, it is not just education or economic status; but religion also. If poor people reproduce more, why is Orissa population growth significantly less than (double digits) , say, poor Muslim’s growth rate in North India? Or less than “better off” and “educated” Muslims of Malappuram district in Kerala?
Although there is no statistically significant difference among Muslim and Hindu literacy rates in Kerala, or significant income disparities,why Malappuram (Muslim mmajority district) had almost double the rate of population growtth than the state as a whole? Why Pathanamthitta (the lowest Muslim population district in the state) had the lowest population growth rate?
The good thing in Malappuram is that, although the population growth is much higher, it is much lower than the growth it had in 81-91 census period, showing family planning is taking effect.
However, as you know, family planning is not accepted by conservative Muslims; especially the surgical procedures.
The actual numbers in India shows a higher population growth/fertility rate among Muslim concentrated areas. The reasons may be manifold, and not religious per se. The case of Malappuram district in Kerala shows something else is in play other than education/economy
Centerist Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Therefore I say Thomes is a idiot fanatic!!! U said 30 million bangladeshis are here…..now tell me how many bangladeshi terrorist did u catch!!!! before making up your point show the facts!!
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Centerist Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
what about UP, Bihar and West Bengal where they are not in majority but even then growth rate is one of the highest. Now dont say that go to indiviaual village and analyse situation!!
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
@ centerist
West bengal, UP, and Bihar have a much larger Muslim population than other states (except kerala). In fact, 50% of all Muslims in India live in those states.
The population growth in these states are significantly higher than other states. In fact, I would bet with you that if you examine any of these states, the Muslim majority as well as high minority percentage districts will have a growth rate significantly higher than the state population growth rate; as the Malappuram number shows.
It is a documented fact that Islmic countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia all have high population growth (3.5% per yer for Saudi, 3.3% per year for PAkistan)
POTA is a failed law. It has never been known, in any avatar, to be of any use ever. Instead it has a well established record of being misused by the people in power.
Nothing works better than good “non corrupt” policing. The biggest problem is, as always, corruption. Unless that is solved all this POTA, TOPA , APOT, wont work.
You dont special laws, the existing laws are good enough. What is needed are people who implement these laws without taking bribes.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
@Bobby
Corrupt bureaucracy is a major problem; you are right. The unscrupulous politician enabled by the corrupt bureaucrat is a deadly combination.
Our bureaucrats are, in fact, more corrupt than our politicians. Apart from bribery, neew district/state etc produces high and low level jobs- collectors, secretaries, commissioners etc.
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S Singh Reply:
October 7th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Well, POTA was able to nix suspected ones; until the liberals started clamouring.
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Anil Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 2:14 am
How the hell you figured POTA failed ..Any law whose purview is as wide as pota’s was takes time to show results. The mooment it started showing results sypathisrs of terrorists came to power and annulled pota..
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Shoeb K Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Agree with Anil. POTA was effective; the usual combination of liberals and Muslim leaders and the vote bank politics undid it.
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Hi,
—————————————————–
The comparative numbers of the Hindu and the Muhammadan element in the major provinces of British India may be seen from the following table:[8]
[8. Statistical Abstract for British India, from 1914-15 to 1923-24, pp. 14-5]
Province Hindus Muhammadans(Muslims)
Madras 88.64 6.71
Bombay 76.58 19.74
Bengal 43.27 53.99
United Provinces 85.09 14.28
Bihar and Orissa 82.84 10.85
Central Provinces and Berar 83.54 4.05
Assam 54.34 28.96
Punjab 31.80 55.33
North-West Frontier Province 6.66 91.62
———————-
These statistics are from a book called “Mother India” by Katherine Mayo, published 1937(not sure about the year,).
———————–
As we can see the present % of Muslims in Assam is approximatley equal to the % of Muslims in 1914-15 to 1923-24.
28.96%(30%) == 30%
So is it really that big a problem, that we get so worked up about.????
Until i read this book, i thought it was a big problem , but is it really that big.????
India will have to manage it’s borders better, & also help Bangladesh so that people in Bangladesh don’t have a reason to come to India.
Secondly, as some one above said, India will have to get involved if Global warming leads to flooding of Bangladesh.
People migrate either because of changes in Natural World or Economic matters.We can not control nature , but we can help Bangladesh in Economic matters.
I don’t see any other solution(Economic Help),……
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S Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
error 28.96%(30%) == 30%
correction 28.96%(29%) == 30%
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hari Reply:
October 19th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
That census would include Sylhet district of Assam which had a huge Muslim majority & was partitioned & included in East Pakistan (currently Bangladesh). Hence the comparison between the older & newer population percentages definitely point to a huge increase in Muslim population.
[Reply]
Dear S,
I will look at your numbers later, but are you assuming that census includes all illegal immigrants? I am not so sure about that let us check it.
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S Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Hi SKS,
I just believe if the problem of illegal migration is real, then we should work towards stopping it.There is also lot of hysteria in discussions regarding this issue.
And as you know some times in India, politics overshadows everything.
I am also looking for sources, but till then i will also reserve my views.
Here is a link, It says Muslims in Assam are 30.9%…….
http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/religion.aspx
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Ashish Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
The figures of 1914 includes undivided Assam, which includes Sylhet which went over to Pakistan.
This link gives you the Supreme Court judgement while repealing the IMDT act; should settle the numbers issue, once for all
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Supreme-Court-repeals-IMDT-Act,-Assam-1.aspx
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As per the judgement, the Muslim population in Assam registered a rise of 77.42 percent and Hindus, 41.89 percent between 1971 to 1991
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S Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Hi,
Could not read the whole article,but yes there is substantial illegal migration from Bangladesh.(After reading the article)
I will accept that.
So now what is the solution,????
deporting those who came after 25th march 1971(I believe that’s what the article says, also Zia might be also referring to this in his article)
1.Better border security. That’s the most immediate step.(But can we do it, even US has only partially successful ).This is the only solution we have for immediate success.
2.Breaking of the nexus , touts etc.Medium term goal
3.Helping Bangladesh economically.Long term goal.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Deporting will be a difficult, time consuming (running into many many years) problem. Bureaucrats will make money out of this by helping to produce fake papers.
Border security - electric fencing, army control of the border, satellite and otehr technology etc is the only immediate way. Internal security of the country will be enhanced through this.
Severe punishment to traffickers…
More trade between BD and India will open up opportunities in BD. I do not think India is in any shape to provide economic assistance. But India can assist them in setting up educational institutions, factories etc.
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Bobby Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
“Deporting will be a difficult, time consuming (running into many many years) problem. Bureaucrats will make money out of this by helping to produce fake papers.”
Also to add to the list the fact that its most definitely going to be misused, and would result in poor Indian bengali speaking muslims being deported. Moreover I feel that its not morally right to remove some one who is here for a long period.
S Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Hi Gopi Thomas,
Yes you are right, i am also not in support of providing Economic Assistance(Money).
But more economic opporunities, for Indian companies working in Bangladesh & Bangladesh companies working in India.But Bangladesh also needs to do it’s bit.
Like India taking a more lenient view in Ganga water sharing disagreement & Bangladesh allowing Natural Gas to flow to India. There are many such examples.
America has been able to progress because it does not have a big headache from it’s neighbouring countries.
India already has lot of problem from Pakistan & open border policy with Nepal(There must be some checks who comes & goes through Nepal
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 8th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
@ S
USA, with its enormous economic capabilities (although slightly dented with the recent melt down), is struggling with the illegal immigration from its Mexican border. It seems they have 40 million illegals, mostly Mexiicans and other South Americans. They are having huge problems. American people are demanding sending these people back due to the strain this puts on education, healthcare, jobs; especially in a diminished economic climate.
At least in US, unlike here, politicians do not promote the illegal infiltration; and no politician will dare to organize or register these people.
Obviously, 25MM illegals in India is a huge problem. While deportation on large scale is simply impossible; I do believe there should be a POTA or similar strict rule to expell any trouble maker fast.
Long term economic progress of both countries and an interdependence (water/natural gas) potentially will minimize the magnitude of the problem.
Sam Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Preserving resources for ones own survival is the most important.
Why shouldnt a large scale deportation be not tried ?
(do not give me a human rights, sympathy or some mistaken cases would be deported…)
Overall they should attempt it and just get it done.
Then build a huge wall to fence india’s border …
hell with Bangladeshis, who voted for 2-nation theory and are killing Hindus anyway.
They killed 2 million Hindus in the 1971 genocide..
Compared to killing 2 illion, India can atleast attempt to push out 25 million illegal Bangladeshis.
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 2:23 am
Sam
To the extent they can be deported, they should be. However, a large scale deportation is simply not possible. How will one go about doing that? Unless, a raid is conducted in populous camps like Ashis mentioned in Delhi. Pulling off an operation like that will have to be done on a war-scale; it is frought with issues.(even discounting human rights issues) As you know, even US is not able to deport their 45 million, even witha good record keeping system.
But i believe, laws can be strengthened, that way if an illegal is arrested for something, he should be summarily deported.
We should complete the fence; may be put army in charge of border instead of BSF. May be there are other solutions.
Let us stop any more infiltration. Let us punish the politicians throug electoral defeats or through legal means. It is the politicians who encourage this ****.
Sam Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Why is a large scale deportation not possible (if there is a will) ??
India does not have the resources or the need for 25 million illegals.
USA is different. They have the need and an economy which was making use of Mexian labor.
Also mexico is not at idealogical war and mexicans are also christians.
also mexicans are not terrorists..
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Sam
it is difficult to deport because 1) how willl u identify 2) how will u make sure it does not impact real citizens 3) the tiem and expopense for the appeal process 4) ho w will u control teh corruption etc etc.. It simply is very diffficult.
However, we can eliminate/reduce further infiltration by constructing fence, having army to patrol etc.
USA wants to deport. however, they are in the same conendrunm - how to iidentify, how to manange teh appeal process, how not to violate citizens’ rights etc
it is our politicians — in this case Congress and Marxisst - created this situation!
We have to be eternally vigilant in future — we just camnnot rely on our politicians any more; they will selll their mothers!
Bobby Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Please explain to me how having a POTA will help in reducing infiltration or even in identifying infiltrators.
Sam Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Assume that 99.999% of Muslim illegals are peaceful.
So that leaves 0.001% who are not peaceful. (1 out of 1 lakh)
So out of 25 million people that is
25,000,000 x 0.001% = 250 people.
That is enough to launch 25 terror attacks using a team of 10 people simultaneously.
That is like 25 mumbai terror attacks simultaneously..
This is a very plausible scenario, and I am sure ISI and LeT and so many jihadists would be do very soon..
Sam Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
continuing on my previous writing.
Does India have the resources and capabilities and the will to find that 1 terrorist out of 1 lakh illegal muslims from Bangladesh ?
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
@Sam
There is a real threat as you described. The key is to have our intelligence gathering system in good shape. We will have to have more resources on the ground. and we will have to be prepared, unlike the 26/11 incident.
We should close the bordfer. And do whatever we can to send as many back to BD.
We are in a mess, a real mess. Let me know your ideas that can be implemented considering 2.5 crore illegals are here already.
Hi,
nothing to do with this discussion, but link to a nice pic
http://twocircles.net/2009oct06/united_we_flourish_divided_we_perish.html
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All those who are suggesting that deportation will be difficult and unethical and blah blah blah, please read the Supreme Court Judgment that Ashish has linked above.
For everyone understands it tells what the PRIMARY obligation of a nation is, and that it is absolute in all sense. Illegal migration is legally speaking an ACT OF AGRESSION, plain and simple. Govt’s right to expel foreigners is ABSOLUTE and UNLIMITED and there is no provision in the Constitution fettering its discretion and the executive government has UNRESTRICTED right to expel a foreigner. This is LEGAL AND ETHICAL
The Judgment emphatically demonstrates why the BURDEN of PROOF should be on the person alleged to be illegal immigrant and not on the prosecution or applicant. Crystal Clear – If you claim to be an Indian, YOU ALONE HAVE TO PROVE IT. So identification and deportation is just about enforcement of law. By deporting aliens,
But the best part one can see there is the lengths that the supposedly SECULAR governments can go to for protecting their minority vote banks or for appeasement or is that HUMAN RIGHTS?. Withdrawing their original affidavits (it is happening now also) submitting new ones reversing their original position, bringing in all their intellectual might (?), not omitting the lamest arguments, basically not leave any stone unturned. All in the name of Indian Secularism.
One of their last attempts went like this: “The learned Additional Solicitor General has submitted that the present writ petition has been filed by way of public interest litigation and seeks to Achieve a Political Purpose. It is urged that the petitioner Shri Sarbananda Sonowal was earlier an MLA of Assam Gana Parishad party and is now a Member of Parliament and what his party COULD NOT ACHIEVE POLITICALLY, he wants to achieve by means of this public interest litigation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Shri K.K. Venugopal, learned senior counsel for the State of Assam, has in addition submitted that NO FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT of the petitioner has been violated and, therefore, the present petition under Article 32 of the Constitution is not maintainable.
The SC Response: We are unable to accept the submission made. It is the foremost duty of the central government to protect its borders and prevent trespass by foreign nationals!
While I understand Zia’s consternation about ummah affiliation and stuff, I am baffled that he calls Congress people as “HINDU CHIEF MINISTER” heading a HINDU MAJORITY GOVERNMENT”, while all the time they are supposed to be SECULAR.? A bit too convenient.
The question - why bring Indian Muslims in this debate? Right question, but why did Jamiat Ulma-E-Hind (JEH) filed a petition insisting IMDT Act should be made applicable in whole of India ???
For those who don’t know, they will do well to read JEH’s position on India, our Government, our Laws and our Courts. I know they don’t contest elections (and also why) so you can tell me they don’t represent Indian Muslims and Yes I BUY that Seriously.
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Ashish Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
JEH does not represent Indian Muslims … ROTFL
Did you say what I thought you said?
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SKS Mumbai Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Yup, I buy that SERIOUSLY
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Bobby Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Dear SKS,
Its going to be very hard to “prove” that some one is a foreigner.
Firstly, there would be many poor bengali speaking Indians who don’t even have a ration card, and many illegal immigrants who would have one. Its not very hard to procure a ration card. Give some bribe and you get one. In most cases this is the only document one would have. If voter Identity cards is what one goes by as a definition of an Indian, then I am afraid many well to do Indians would have to be deported. So the only purpose this will serve is to to remove “unwanted” poor Indians. This is going to be seriously misused.
Secondly, How will you deport them? Even if you have rightly identified all the foreigners, do you think Bangladesh will accept them as their citizens?? My guess is they will not accept most of them. So they will end up in jail for life in India.
Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Dear SKS
I do agree with your points. I am for deportation if it could be done . However, I am afraid the logistics and operations management aaspects of a massive deportation is simply too complex and unmanageable.
As Bobby said, there is an issue of “where to” also..
I agree that Foreigners Act should have been the law of the land, and there was no need to formulate the IMDT for Assam. It was designed to create vote banks, to appease. It also gives a fodder for outfits like JEH now to have it a sthe standard law for the whole country.
How do we ensure that Foreigners Act is the law of the land and the 1983 IMDT be scrapped? Once it is done, how we can manage the deportation process?
I really believe the populace of North East (including native Assam Muslims) is for 1) stopping the illegal migration and 2) to deport who is here illegally.
And more importantly, how do we prevent our politicians from making these gigantic long term mistakes that threatens the very nation?
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S Singh Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
They all should be deported. Put them in jail if Bengla Desh will not accept them It will prevent further infiltration.
Of course, we will have to build lots of jails.
Does anybody have any info on illegal infiltration in the last ten years? Hs the rate gone down?
[Reply]
Dear Gopi
Logistics issues are secondary, primary is whether our secular and leftist politicians really want to do it?
I admit the issue of scale but that Governments, if they are determined, can achieve a lot, even if not all. It keeps on happening all over the world all the time with Bangladeshis being quite the favorites world-wide. As per the SC order that Ashish linked, 4,89,046 number of Bangladeshi nationals had been actually deported from West Bengal (of all the places) during 1983-98.
About who will accept them? Well BD can continue to refuse as did Pakistan all these years about their terrorists. For the world at large BD’s refusal would show them for what they are. Let the world understand as to how the number of registered voters decline in a country with one of the fastest rates of population growth. In any case what does the BD government do, when plane loads from middle east, US etc are simply dumped at Dhaka airport? Nothing, these guys flow back into the country. To give up on something, because the problem is too big, is not the language in which responsible and confident nations should talk in.
Besides, it is important for us to pursue it with full commitment and seriousness for other reasons as well. We haven’t eradicated poverty in 60 years, we haven’t managed encroachments, illegal slums and so on and so forth. So what? Do we give up? Let us not forget over a period, cheaper alternatives mean dearer consequences apart from the fact that these alternatives will stand justified tomorrow in the name of precedence.
I reiterate you might not achieve 100% but you can’t run away from the exam. Our not trying will not be considered an act of generosity by either BD or the world at large, it would be so, after we have demonstrated our capability to walk the talk.
As for legalities, we should have faith in our system in the sense that the chances of our erring on the side of not deporting some one wrongly are far-far higher than the reverse. Moreover, the burden of proof is on the aliens and it is ethical and justified. In any case, secularists should not be unhappy about the prospect of these aliens acquiring fake certificates and avoiding deportation
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Bobby Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Dear SKS,
“As for legalities, we should have faith in our system in the sense that the chances of our erring on the side of not deporting some one wrongly are far-far higher than the reverse.”
In my opinion the basis of a legal system in any civilized society is the principle “that it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.” (quoting Benjamin Franklin)
Please don’t forget that you are talking of deporting “human beings” here, people with families and stake in the land, not cattle. So one has to be very careful.
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sanjeev Reply:
October 10th, 2009 at 12:49 am
@
It makes me laugh when a mullah talks of justice.
Why don’t you ask for justice to your masters in the deserts pf arabia.
Can you ask for citizenship even after spending whole life as a labourer in KSA ?
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 9th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Dear SKS,
I am in favor of action; howevr, one of this magnitude will require a “war scale” approach. And, I am for that; and not for the snail-paced bureaucratic process.
I do agree any result is better than status quo. The West Bengal deportation number is encouraging. We should be able to do twenty-thirty fold of that number with a focused and targeted approach.
The process should include checks and balances for legitimate ones from being not deported as Bobby said. A way of checking birth records or reference checking with legitimates - some mechanism like that for people without identification card, but who are legitimate.
I would not mind using army for both border protection as well as for shipping illegals out. (Bardhan has already ex[ressed his opposition for using army against Naxalites) .
How do we implement the SC verdict when counterwrits are filed?
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@Bobby
I just go on presuming that, given my impaired IQ, you would show some mercy, though, I do realize, how difficult it would be for you to remember things said by low lifes like me. For the sake of good order, let me reiterate, the profound wisdom that you keep on unleashing are beyond my pea-sized brain.
Nevertheless, let me try a bit:
You would have done some favor to low lifes like me, if you had read the SC judgment Ashish referred to. Of course citing US, UK, Canada as countries with civilized legal system is ridiculous, (our SC judges should have looked closer for more civilized systems), but some points might deserve your generous consideration: -
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“ We consider it necessary here to briefly notice the law regarding deportation of aliens as there appears to be some Misconception about it and it has been ARGUED with some VEHEMENCE that ALIENS also possess several rights and the procedure for their identification and deportation should be detailed and elaborate in order to ensure fairness to them. In Introduction to International Law by J.G. Starke (1st Indian re-print 1994) in Chapter 12 (page 348), the law on the points has been stated thus: - ”Most states claim in legal theory to exclude all aliens at will, affirming that such unqualified right is an essential attribute of sovereign government. The courts of Great Britain and the United States have laid it down that the right to exclude aliens at will is an incident of territorial sovereignty. Unless bound by an international treaty to the contrary, states are not subject to a duty under international law to admit aliens or any duty there under not to expel them. Nor does international law impose any duty as to the period of stay of an admitted alien.”Like the power to refuse admission this is regarded as an incident of the State’s territorial sovereignty. International law does not prohibit the expulsion enmasse of aliens. (page 351). Reference has also been made to Article 13 of the International Covenant of 1966 on Civil and Political Rights which provides that an alien lawfully in the territory of a State party to the Covenant may be expelled only pursuant to a decision reached by law, and except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, is to be allowed to submit the reasons against his expulsion and to have his case reviewed by and to be represented for the purpose before the competent authority. It is important to note that this Covenant of 1966 would apply provided an alien is lawfully in India, namely, with valid passport, visa etc. and not to those who have entered illegally or unlawfully.
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Similar view has been expressed in Oppenheim’s International Law (Ninth Edn. 1992 in paragraphs 400, 401 and 413). The author has said that the reception of aliens is a matter of discretion, and every State is by reason of its territorial supremacy, competent to exclude aliens from the whole or any part of its territory. In paragraph 413 it is said that the right of States to expel aliens is generally recognized. It matters not whether the alien is only on a temporary visit, or has settled down for professional business or any other purposes on its territory, having established his domicile there. A belligerent may consider it convenient to expel all hostile nationals residing or temporarily staying within its territory; although such a measure may be very harsh on individual aliens, it is generally accepted that such expulsion is justifiable. Having regard to Article 13 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, 1966, an alien lawfully in a State’s territory may be expelled only in pursuance of a decision reached in accordance with law. 50. In Rex vs. Bottrill (1947) 1 K.B. 41, it was said that the King under the Constitution of United Kingdom is under no obligation to admit into the country or to retain there when admitted, any alien. Every alien in the United Kingdom is there only because his presence has been licensed by the King. It follows that at common law the King can at will withdraw his license and cause the Executive to expel the alien, whether enemy or friend. For holding so reliance was placed on Attorney-General for Canada vs. Cain [1906] AC 542, where Lord Atkinson said: -”One of the rights possessed by the Supreme power in every state is the right to refuse to permit an alien to enter that state, to annex what conditions it pleases to the permission to enter it, and to expel or deport from the state, at pleasure, even a friendly alien, especially if it considers his presence in the state opposed to its peace, order, and good government, or to its social or material interests.”In Chae Chan Ping vs. United States 1930 U.S. 581, the United State Supreme Court held : “The power of exclusion of foreigners being an incident of sovereignty belonging to the Government of the United States, as a part of those sovereign powers delegated by the Constitution, the right to its exercise at any time when, in the judgment of the Government, the interests of the country require it, cannot be granted away or restrained on behalf of any one. The powers of Government are delegated in trust to the United States, and are incapable of transfer to any other parties. They cannot be abandoned or surrendered. Nor can their exercise be hampered, when needed for the public good, by any considerations of private interest. The exercise of these public trusts is not the subject of barter or contract.”This principle was reiterated in Fong Yue Ting vs. United States 149 U.S. 698, where the court ruled: -”The government of each state has always the right to compel foreigners who are found within its territory to go away, by having them taken to the frontier. This right is based on the fact that, the foreigner not making part of the nation, his individual reception into the territory is matter of pure permission, of simple tolerance, and creates no obligation. The exercise of this right may be subjected, doubtless, to certain forms by the domestic laws of each country; but the right exist none the less, universally recognized and put in force.”……………………………………………………………………………….”The order of deportation is not a punishment for crime. It is not a banishment, in the sense in which that word is often applied to the expulsion of a citizen from his country by way of punishment. It is but a method of enforcing the return to his own country of an alien who has not complied with the conditions upon the performance of which the government of the nation, acting within its constitutional authority and through the proper departments, has determined that his continuing to reside here shall depend. He has not, therefore, been deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; and the provisions of the Constitution, securing the right of trial by jury, and prohibiting unreasonable searches and seizures, and cruel and unusual punishments, have no application.”51. In Nishimura Ekiu v. United States 142 US 652, it was adjudged that, although Congress might, if it saw fit, authorize the courts to investigate and ascertain the facts upon which the alien’s right to land was made by the statutes to depend, yet Congress might entrust the final determination of those facts to an executive officer, and that, if it did so, his order was due process of law and no other tribunal, unless expressly authorized by law to do so, was at liberty to re-examine the evidence on which he acted, or to controvert its sufficiency. Thus according to United States Supreme Court the determination of rights of an alien even by Executive will be in compliance of due process of law.52. In Louis De Raedt vs. Union of India 1991 (3) SCC 554 the two foreign nationals engaged in missionary work had come to India in 1937 and 1948 respectively with proper documents like passport and visa etc. and were continuously living here but by the order dated 8th July, 1987 their prayer for further extension of the period of stay was rejected and they were asked to leave the country by 31st July, 1987. They then challenged the order by filing a writ petition. This Court held that the power of the Government of India to expel foreigners is absolute and unlimited and there is no provision in the Constitution fettering its discretion and the executive government has unrestricted right to expel a foreigner. So far as right to be heard is concerned, there cannot be any hard and fast rule about the manner in which a person concerned has to be given an opportunity to place his case. 53. In State of Arunachal Pradesh v. Khudi Ram Chakma 1994 (Supp.) SCC 615, following Louis De Raedt (supra), it was held that the fundamental right of a foreigner is confined to Article 21 for life and liberty and does not include the right to reside and stay in this country, as mentioned in Article 19(1)(e), which is applicable only to the citizens of the country. …. … . . . .. .. … . . . .. .. Nevertheless, once lawfully admitted to a territory, they are entitled to certain immediate rights necessary to the enjoyment of ordinary private life. Thus, the Bangladesh nationals who have illegally crossed the border and have trespassed into Assam or are living in other parts of the country have no legal right of any kind to remain in India and they are liable to be deported.”
So, what FUNDAMENTAL rights do Aliens have either under international convention or national law? LIFE and LIBERTY.
Further, Deportation order does not mean deprival of LIFE or LIBERTY. It is neither a prosecution, not a punishment. It is not about Guilt or Innocence.
You can certainly challenge SC order by citing more civilized legal systems that you must be aware of.
Incidentally, from a REALLY Civilized point of view, why should cattles be subject to lower standards?
But I found something mysterious in your statement : ”people with families and STAKE in the LAND” Does your LAND include the territory of India? Or did PEOPLE mean Indian citizens living in Assam? Or there is something we don’t know?
My humble submission to you is this: please pay some attention to the WORDS used in SC’s ruling. May be, just may be, an outside chance, that they do mean something more and different to “SABKA MALIK EK” kind of wisdom.
Difficult it actually is, but as always, you have the last word, that is, if you chose so.
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Ashish Reply:
October 10th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
@SKS
If Benjamin Franklin is not good enough for you, I don’t know what else we can do. Let me, in the interest of balancing your rabid Hindutva laced poison (or poison laced Hindutva) present this argument:
“But the fact is that prior to independence of India in 1947, Assam was a Muslim majority state. After the independence, Muslims were made minority in the state by transferring the Muslim majority district of Sylhet to Pakistan, compelling over eight lakh Indian Muslims to leave the state for East Pakistan and granting safe haven to about two million foreigners consisting of Hindus, Buddhists and Christians, as refugees in the state. Five to six lakh [hundred thousand] Muslims were compelled to leave the state during the communal riots of 1948 – 1950 and about three and half lakh Muslims were deported as immigrants, undesirable elements and foreigners from 1950 to 2003. Over and above these, thousands of Muslims were murdered in cold blood during the last five decades and names of 0.375 million Indian Muslims were dropped from the voters list arbitrarily as doubtful citizens.
In the six districts ……., Muslims have become majority not because of infiltration of Bangladeshi Muslims but because of the creation of new districts out of the old ones. For example, four districts such as Dhubri, Goalpara, Kokrajhar and Bongaigaon were created out of the erstwhile district of Goalpara and three districts – Barpeta, Kamrup and Nalbari - were created out of Kamrup district. It is notable that the districts under reference are historically Muslim-concentrated regions. But chauvinistic and communal forces inimical to communal harmony have been misleading the world by depicting the Muslims of Assam as foreigners by suppressing the truth.
The RSS, BJP and AASU are known by different names, yet their objective is the same. They have been defaming the Indian Muslims in Assam as foreigners in the same spirit and working to reduce them to an insignificant minority by deleting their names from the electoral rolls and deporting them to Bangladesh.
In view of this sinister design, it has become essential to retain the Illegal Migrants (Determination by Tribunal) Act as it is and extend it to whole of India. This is to prevent communal and divisive forces from harassing the religious and lingual minorities as “foreigners” and denying their constitutional right to move throughout the country and settle in any part of it without fear of harassment and persecution.
IM (DT) Act is a valid piece of law. It is passed by the parliament and recognized and accepted by the AASU and the state government by signing the Assam Accord in 1985. But AASU is creating confusion and mistrust in the minds of the people by making contradictory demands: repeal of the IM (DT) Act on the one hand and the implementation of the Assam Accord on the other in a manner as if the Accord is greater than the Constitution of India.
IM (DT) Act is, unlike other Indian laws which can be used for detection and deportation of foreigners, a secular law and free from communal bias. While paving the way for detection and deportation of foreigners through judicial process, it has safeguarded human rights and values of the Indian citizens and satisfied the norms of civil and democratic society.
The high growth rate of Indian Muslims living in Assam is due to their high birth rate, which is again due to their socio-economic backwardness. There has been no infiltration of Bangladeshi Muslims into the state in recent years.”
The above is from the beacon of Truth, the secularist manifesto called the Milli Gazette. Written by one famous scholar called Muhammad Hasibor Rahman in 2004.
Please refrain from quoting Supreme Court judgements. As you can see, the Supreme court may not have been in full possession of the facts, when it overturned the IMDT act as is evident from above.
@Gopi Thomas:
Can’t resist quoting from Salinger’s Franny and Zooey (actually a quote from a Greek drama)
“Beautiful Ophelia (?) is dead, oh what shall we do?”
“Beat your breasts maidens, and rend your tunics”
Do you recognise each one of us, in this blog in the above roles? Either beating our breasts or advising that we do so?
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Ashish
Quite funny..
I declare SC is not secular enough; for a diverse country like India; moreover, it is a legacy of colonialism.
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Ashish Reply:
October 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
yeah right!
@SKS,
main ban gaya SECULAR; aap pichhe reh gaye
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Dear SKS,
All I said was that one should be very careful in deporting people. Its going to be very hard to identify infiltrators. And its the responsibility of the state to be absolutely sure that no Indian citizen is deported.
However I fear that in any large scale deportation attempt, its going to happen that real citizens will be affected. Enpowered Indians wont be affected, but poor bengali speaking Indians would be targeted.
Secondly In my opinion, one should be more compassionate even in the case of actual infiltrators.
For instance, I think that the deportation should not be just an act of pushing people out straight away, beacause I dont think Bangladesh will accept them all, and they will end up in Indian Jails, or maybe Bangladeshi jails if they are pushed out without Bangladesh’s consent.
I dont think the problem is an easy one.
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@Ashish
You have inspired me to write a film script. Defining scene of the film goes like this:
A: Bhai, Tum Secular Banoge Ya Nahi?
B. Banunga, mein Secular banoonga, lekin usse pehle, Jao ja ke us admi ka sign le ke aao jo secular certificate deta hai. Us aadmi ka sign le ke aao, jisne mere hath pe yeh likh diya:
DHAN TE NAN#: Mera Bap HINDU BIGOT hai
(#: DTN will play only once if we sign BIG B, and 4-5 times, if we have to do with SRK, so that there is no minority discrimination).
DIsclaimer: This picture is a work of fiction. Any resemblance (real, imagined or claimed) to any real event or real person (including, but not limited to BIG B and SRK) is a mere coincidence. Should this movie compel any person to write article/books Titled “Communalising Bollywood” (including, but not limited to any linguistic, grammatical variants, words, phrases symbols with similar interpretations thereof)”, such person is free to do so without any regard to facts, logic or common sense.
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Gopi Thomas Reply:
October 10th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
@SKS @ Ashish
Screenplay suggestion- He should fight the Brahmin Evil Oppressors and obtain from them Land Certificates for 1000 BDs before he goes to the Secular Certificate Grantor..
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@GOPI
Your idea is very good but there is a practical problem. We will have to build a background for that part, 3 hour movie will not do justice.
I think a DAILY SOP will do more justice to your suggestion. After all it is a story of 3000 years of brutal suppression an continuing till date. What is your opinion.
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Ashish Reply:
October 11th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
You might want to call it
1. @Kkahani KKalyug Kki
2. Kkah do, Kki yeh Sach Hai
or, thoda hatke
3. Arabian Knights (each episode should feature the indigenous migrants from Arabia like Gazni)
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