Hanooz Dilli dur ast (Delhi is long way off)



Do what you will, this world’s a fiction and is made up of contradiction. William Blake, English Poet.

Great cities are invariably those that stand on ruins of history — like Delhi. A city without history may have opulence and glistening high-rises but will lack a soul. Some years ago, I had interviewed then Canadian trade minister Jim Scott Peterson, who told me what his prime minister had told ours during their meet at Delhi. Peterson quoted the Canadian PM as saying to Manmohan Singh: “What a majestic city the British have left.” To this, Singh reportedly said: “We cherish these grand British monuments but we would have preferred more years of freedom.”

Yet, there can be no dispute about the hand of history in making Delhi what it is –a place where you can breathe.

So, despite its rustic ruffians and terrible touts, Delhi is my emotional adopted home, having always liked it. Pardon my patronizing caricature of native Delhi’ites but manner-less and rude people are frequently encountered here. Its schools have air-conditioned rooms, but give little by way of core values. Yet, there is an X-factor about Delhi’s air that tugs at my heart-strings.

Its roads are the widest in the country, monuments oldest, and amid chaos, the city still has some islands of tranquility, some quiet, pleasant places of peaceful meditations. Its monuments draw thousands from around the world. What a majestic city, Delhi, where walked many greats, from Ghalib to Gandhi.

In the north, you have an explosion of controlled confusion in Chandni Chowk. In the south, you have upscale shopping arcades for the well-heeled Delhi citizens. It’s all there.

John Hickenlooper, the iconic restaurateur who became Mayor of Denver, had said thus about his goals as mayor of a great US city: “Today we’re dealing with metropolitan Shanghai, metropolitan New Delhi or Paris. If we’re competing at that level, our diversity, that richness of people coming from so many different backgrounds, is one of our greatest advantages.”

To Tina Turner, Delhi “came as a shock. There were so many people, and oh, the traffic”. To Pope Paul VI, who visited Delhi in 1964, he “met a hundred men going to Delhi and everyone is my brother”. Amartya Sen left Delhi in 1971, and his stint in the capital produced one of his best works, Collective Choice and Social Welfare.

To me, Delhi is a changing city, whose past may be glorious, but as a microcosm of an onward marching India, it will be defined by its future.

But from long being a melting pot, Delhi appears to me to be slowly steeling itself. And to my vast discomfiture, I have discovered, after placing my idol “Delhi” on a pedestal, that it has its own feet of clay. Infact, it is developing cold feet, if you will.

Despite its rich, mixed Muslim-Hindu legacy, it can be a surprisingly difficult city for non-native Muslims. One can seldom speak one’s mind without paying a price for it. But I don’t mind paying the price for speaking up. I have never been attracted by Muslim-only neighbourhoods, not because they are less salubrious and exhibit the so-called “cattle class” traits but because I want my growing daughter to experience a diverse, cosmopolitan and multi-cultural life.

So I chose predominantly Hindu districts. I generally do not like to crib about personal experiences, the “Imraan-Hashmi experiences”. But the truth is, finding houses was a challenge. And most residencies would be short-lived, the seven to eight addresses. And as many house moves later, I finally hit upon a place I could call home.

Over the years, we pitched tents in different quarters and moved several apartments, once because the maid stopped coming. The reason: neighbours had collectively told her she could either work in a Muslim household or theirs. Obviously, she preferred dumping one source of livelihood to dumping all six. To retain her services would have required us to pay her entire salary from six households. Cruel, I should say.

Yet, I have liked this city for, as stated earlier, its X-factor. The bond cannot be quite explained in certain terms.

Another reason behind Delhi’s goodness is the pre-dominantly money-minded orientation of a majority of its citizens. “Business class” takes on a whole new meaning here. Delhi’ites not just earn money, they also create wealth. And when money is your best friend, religious and cultural differences are naturally cast aside. It ought to have been like that but it is not so, as I was to discover.

A few days ago, an unseemly incident confirmed my déjà vu of a city hardening itself. In Rohini — a west Delhi suburb that is rapidly being filled in, with its nice leafy roads and sprawling malls, matters almost came to a head. Every year, a few dozen Muslims offer their Eid namaz at a park in Sector 9. There’s no mosque you see. The other day, some unidentified men stormed one Mohd. Fahim’s house. Fahim is the president of the local organizing committee for Eid namaz. Fahim was assaulted and asked to refrain from using the park for Eid prayer.

A park certainly is not a place for a mass prayer, even though only twice a year, each time lasting half an hour. Well, if one gets down to hairsplitting technicalities, offering prayer in a park meant for recreation purposes certainly does/may constitute a violation of its permissible usage.

My own view is that rather than insist on offering namaz at a public park, it would be proper for the devotees to head out to various mosques in the city, even though that may not be the most practical thing to do. People generally prefer a neighbourhood congregation. That’s how it is.

However, I fail to understand one thing about Delhi’s urban planners. Suburbs like Dwarka and Rohini were planned, well thought out and are artificially created localities. When the Delhi Development Authority could earmark well-defined residential areas, institutional plots, hospital land and even demarcated areas for temples in each of the 24 or so sectors, why did they fail to allocate land for mosques and churches? Probably because it never occurred to them. We are sorry to realize we never existed in their minds. We are sorry they forgot that India is a land of Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis, Jews, Sikhs, animists (you will find them in Arunachal Pradesh), believers and non-believers.

But who were these people who roughed up Mr Fahim? What business did they have to criminally assault and issue threats, which could have very much snowballed into a riot? Following this, a delegation of the CPI(ML) had staged a peace march and met Mr. Atul Katiyar, the deputy commissioner of police (Outer Delhi) to apprise him of the situation and appeal to him to make suitable arrangements to ensure that the namaz prayers can proceed peacefully.

I do not think the objections to the prayers were from ordinary citizens per se. Such acts are done by ‘professionals’ — people who practise more politics than piety. Paul R. Brass, Professor Emeritus of Political Science and South Asian Studies, University of Washington Seattle (http://paulbrass.com/) had in great detail unraveled the DNA of such professional trouble-makers in his book <The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contemporary India>.

Brass has 15 books and numerous articles on South Asian politics, ethnic politics, and collective violence. His works are based on extensive field research in India during many visits since 1961. His most notable works are The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contemporary India (2003), Theft of an Idol: Text and Context in the Representation of Collective Violence (1997); Riots and Pogroms (1996); and The Politics of India Since Independence, 2nd edition (1994).

According to Brass, the “best explanation” for recurring riots in places where they are endemic — such as Aligarh — in India and elsewhere in the world (including the 20th-century US and 19th-century Russia) is the presence of what he calls “Institutionalized Riot Systems”.

Brass states that these “Institutionalized Riot Systems” are composed of “networks of specialists who play varied and multifarious roles in the instigation and perpetuation of communal animosities, in the enactment of riots, and in the interpretation of riots after they occur”.

I suspect such an Institutionalized Riot System or a network that has the capacity to become one was behind the threat against offering Eid prayers at the Rohini park.

Brass says Muslim networks too contribute to Institutionalized Riot Systems in India, though they are less well organised and potent, compared to Rightist Hindutva networks.

So, according to Brass, where ever such well-composed riot systems take roots, the places become a tinder-box and violence-prone.

On the other hand, another India scholar Ashutosh Varshney, inverses the same logic and argues that cities that have generally been communally peaceful have “Institutionalized Peace Systems”.

Varshney is Professor of Political Science, Brown University, and previously taught at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor and also at Harvard University as assistant and associate professor of government. His work Ethnic Conflict and Civic Life; Hindus and Muslims in India (Yale University Press, 2002) won the American Political Science Association’s Gregory Luebbert Award for the best book in comparative politics.

Varshney’s theme investigation involved finding out why some cities in India witness savage Hindu-Muslim riots while others manage to go clash-free, even during trying times like the post-Babri Masjid demolition.

Varshney concluded that where there are “Institutionalized Peace Systems”, there are fewer chances of faith clashes. He found that in areas where there were built-in civic Hindu-Muslim networks, like “integrated business organizations”, “trade unions”, “political parties” and “professional groups”, cutting across communal lines, violence was less likely.

He also concluded that such “integrated associations” served as Institutionalized Peace Systems by reigning in powerful politicians who are out to “polarize Hindus and Muslims along religious lines”.

So, how do we check such communal passions? By thoroughly institutionalizing such peace systems. Even though it may seem far-fetched, I advocate the setting up of a ministry for communal harmony. It’s workable. If there can be a minister for less expedient issues like corporate affairs, there can very well be one for communal harmony, considering the violent clashes we sometimes have.

What would such a ministry do? Well it could keep a check on Institutionalized Riot Systems by unearthing them, identifying them and nipping them in the bud. Think about it.

Till such a thing happens, what we could do is to enhance our peace networks by more free associations and having joint Hindu-Muslim councils at the local level. Let’s keep Delhi going like it has been. A butt-kicking great city. And until we can secure our childrens’ future, as the famous Farsi saying of another famous Delhi’ite Hazrat Nizamuddin goes, Hanooz Dilli dur ast (Delhi is still far away).

1 Star2 Stars3 Stars4 Stars5 Stars (23 votes, average: 4.3 out of 5)
Loading ... Loading ...
  • Bobby

    I think this point about “built-in civic networks” is most crucial. This is a world wide phenomenon. Among all the developed countries the US is perhaps the most religious with a very large number literally beleiving in the Bible and the six day creation.

    Now if one asks why this is the case and what is it that is different between Europe and the US, the answer is precisely that worker unions have been crushed in the US as compared to Europe. These act as social secular forums where people meet and interact and talk of common issues. In the absence of such secular networks the vacuum is filled by religious forums and associations, and then its easy for fundamentalist forces to brainwash people into religious hogwash.

    In fact this is also true in the Arab world, where such unions are banned. Even in the Indian context one sees that Bengal and Kerala are the two places where there is a strong Union movement and where also as a consequence the hindu muslim riots are almost non existent. On the other hand, Mumbai and Gujarat have crushed such unions long time back, and we all know the riots situation there.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/at-last-a-readable-and-honest-guide-to-the-book-that-inspires-terrorists-worldwide-the-koran.html

    * What Infidels can and must do to defend free societies against those who take the Koran’s message of violence and supremacism to heart

    —> Maybe Zia should expand on this theme, instead of trying to educate Hindus (or his covert mission of being a Ghazi and trying to gain new converts)…
    It is despicable, that when there is so much islamic violence he choses to preach about a violent themes.
    He should spend all his time in teaching his fellow zealots first and educating hindus about how to protect themselves from his fellow co-religionists.

    instead he choses to to dawah..

    I guess he has sick ideas or he thinks that now hindus want peace maybe they will take his word that islam is peace..

    Proof: the Koran is just about the opposite of a “book of peace”:

    * Why most government and media analysts dare not even question the assumption that the Koran is peaceful

    * How sacred texts are not entirely determined by what the faithful wish to see in them

    * Infidels: why Allah hates them, and what he has in store for them — straight from the Koran

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Maybe in India, they should pass a law, that using public spaces for prayers should be banned.

    They can have processions, but not prayer.

    That will push the religion to private space and it will be a good point in making practicing religions private only.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/im-here-in-washington-at.html

    “It is being preached in mosques in America that one should kill the apostates wherever you find them. It is the law of Islam — Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi’i and Maliki schools of law all agree that the person who leaves Islam must be killed.
    What’s worse than the law, however, is when the religious and legal system tells Muslims that they can kill apostates and not be punished. Islamic law gives the right to the Muslim on the street to kill the apostate. Under Islamic law, such a murderer will not go to jail.

    This happened in Egypt — Faraj Foda was killed in front of his house and the killer is not prosecuted”

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    It is interesting Zia will move out of a “hard to get” apartment because his maid stopped coming by. A bleeding liberal…cannot live without a maid.

    I lived in Delhi for many years (years ago), in Vasanth Vihar and in Panchsheel.I did not have any problem in getting a rental place; we were welcomed into the community, in spite of our language and religion. May be that my wife is a Professor had something to do with that. Or may be they discriminate againt some while accepting others (such as Christians like me). Or may be times were different!

    Troubles are always created by politicians and other organized elements. South has been relatively free of riots (with Tamil Nadu and Kerala not having any to speak off, except the Marad riots/massacres in Kerala few years ago) . Generally people live in integrated communities, and it becomes tough to fight against one another.

    Yet another ministry is not the solution. I believe we have too many ministries already. Effective ploicing with police having good outreach and community relations program should suffice about preventing a law/order situation.

    There is law of numbers too. In a country of one billion people, some elements (the trouble makers) will always create problems. It can be religion, caste, factory, lack of factory, landlord, landless etc etc. There are clashes of interests always.

    It is worth pondering whether a Singaporean model will work in India; if so what has to give away, and is it worth it…………

    [Reply]

  • Delhi

    This is ironic, that where once muslims ruled and lived in the place for thousand years they have difficulty finding place to live. Delhi is undergoing terrible reprogramming (Modernization) now a days ie the remnant of the Muslim past is being purged slowly their names are being changed (case in a point in naming of metro stations like there is no safdarjung or Yusuf sarai exist instead there is INA , AIIMS, Green parks stations) . New localities are preferably named after some southie names like this PURAM or that PURAM if settled by Govt and some english names if settled by private companies.
    There are not a single roads named after muslim rulers or any great personalities from that time in new delhi after independence, not a single statues of muslim rulers in Delhi which they settled and made marvelous monuments(you find heaps of ambedkar and shivaji) In agra there is no single Shahjahan statue.
    Urdu had been reduced to the fossil of the past instead gurumukhi which has no relation with Delhi’s history is being promoted. The recent case in a point is New Delhi’s ugly looking new Station, which makes you feel that you are in some filthy city of italy or greece, the architecture is ugly and has nothing to do with hindu or muslim past of Delhi.
    The several historical mosques of Delhi cannot be used for prayers strangely but in europe 1000 years old churches are still open for prayers!
    This is cultural deterioration of Delhi. I would never expect any railway station of european capital made in Indian style!!

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Delhi,

    Very insightful comment. Agree completely.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Mullah Babur

    This shows your mentality. Soon u will ask for sharia. This is what people like me fear and will never allow to be happen.

    Keep on praying your paedophile ……

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    All political parties, including the Marxist Party of Mr Mitra’s West Bengal are communal. Electoral alliances and candidate placements are done on obtaining the maximum (votes from sliced and diced constituencies.

    For Congress and leftist politicians, BJP is communal; however, parties like Muslim League and its various incarnations all over are not communal.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Delhi

    It shows your personal frustration and frustration of mullahs’s like Bobby. Explain me which thousand years muslims ruled over delhi ?

    I can recount many names of roads after Akbar, aurangzeb, tughlaq marg. First of all these names should have been here till now.

    These muslims borons brought on india was a doom and nothing more.

    What architecture are you talking about ? tombs, mosques and mausoleums (Three M’s ) the list ends with that.

    The only secular building in delhi is that of Jantar Mantar (solar observatory ) which was made of a rajput ruler.

    “not a single statues of muslim rulers in Delhi which they settled and made marvelous monuments(you find heaps of ambedkar and shivaji) In agra there is no single Shahjahan statue”

    The British planned and made the Lutyens delhi. So should we make statues of Lord Curzon, Mountbatten etc. ? The Muslim marauders you are talking about were thugs and invaders who raped and massacred local people. Should we celebrate their rapes and murders.

    If you are so fond of their statues go and start living in ISLAMBAD or some other ABAD. We should celebrate the mass murderers.

    ******** like you will start demanding ISLAMIC REPUBLIC in the name of India being ruled by muslims.

    Btter you go and start living in the deserts of ARABIA.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Let them restore all Hindu names to currently muslim names for cities like

    Allahabad –> Prayag
    Hyderabad –> Bhagyanagar..

    More later..

    can we quickly restore them.

    Hindus did it with Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai as they were named by English.

    But they are afraid to do it to Muslim names for the cities.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sam
    I agree with you that we should revert to the original recorded names.

    However, there should be historical records maintained that the city went through xx name changes – from Prayag to Allahabad to *** to Prayag etc .

    Why should Muslims be upset if these had different names before?

    Delhi Reply:

    Hey Sam
    you are idiot to say that cities shud revert back to hindu names, cos you even shy of choosing hindi or indian name for posting here.

    So lets say changing to hindu names, how many cities will you change. there are hudreds of place in cow belt that ends with ABAD and had no previous names. there is on place called Mohammedi so i think it can be RAMI……hmmm good name!!

    And u ignorant idiot Allahabad has already been divided into KAUSHAMBI and allahabad (though this is indirest and smart to change the names). or if mayawati stays she will have more Jyotibaphule nagars or Shahuji maharaj nagars in UP.

    @Thomas

    so in south america (where christian religeous fanatic lives) all the cities, town geographical structures and roads are named after endless christian stupid saints…..we can start from there…………to have more native inidan names!!!!

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Delhi

    what nonsense are you saying? How do you know religious Christian fanatics (that itself is an oxymoron ; if u r religious, you are not fanatic) live in South America? And why would South America change to Indian names?

    And it looks like you are going on adding to your “stupidity” index – it was “southie” names like Purams before; now it is “christian stupid” saints. Bad, bad, bad……Learn and come back.

    Delhi Reply:

    Hey by native indians, I mean the native Indians of Americas who all are slaughtered and massacred by european missionaries during catolic conversions and inquisitions. Thier culture is completely destroyed systematically. and the leftovers where “reprogrammed” to have european names, religion, culture and language. By the way you write and think on lot of topics, but have you ever thought how come complete americas is christian and european (even the natives forgot their own language!!) in just say 200-300 yrs of time………

    Amit Reply:

    Bhagyanagar sound more like Bhag-gaya nagar…

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Amit

    “Bhagyanagar sound more like Bhag-gaya nagar…”

    Then what should we do if it sounds like this ? Should we borrow a name from Saudi Arabia or Porkistan ?

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Delhi

    You are totally wrong!

    It is true that native americans were cheated and slaughtered. (no different from many non-moghul Muslim invaders in India, or Tipu Sultan). They were decimated by the American Settlers — not by catholic missionaries, or conversion efforts. The “pioneers” came from UK, landed in Massachussets, and conquered the vast plains of the current USA.

    In the constitution, the American Indians were confined into their “reservations” or “nations” . These were the only places where you can have gambling casinos on land otehr than LAs Vegas and Atlantoic city (all other gamblings are on boats). So, these tribes have made lots of money in the last fifteen years due to gambling crowd.

    America is not a Christiabn nation. There is no official religion. AAll sorts of religion are there including Hindu, Muslim, Budhist, Sikh, various segments of Kerala Christianity (like MAr Thoma, Syrian CAtholic, Knanaya etc).

    Indians, (mainly Hindus), run major companies, run major universities, are big in reserach, Wall Street in US. US welcomes immigrants, it is a country built by immigrants, and successive generations only enhance the democratic systems there.

    America has contributed significantly to human progress in the last 150 years in teh fields of science, enginmeering, medicine, industry, economics , philosophy. While the slaughter and cheating of the American Indians is definitely a bad bad bad mark on the early settlers; I personally cannot think of the modern world and livelihood withoutt ever having an America.

    Later, many immigrants came and settled in US. US is aclled a land of immigrants, a melting pot.

    Indian Reply:

    @Sanjeev
    Had muslim marauders looted and raped everybody in India, then you wud also have been some Khan or pathan or whatever

    everywhere in the world India is only and only symbolized by TAJ MAHAL and Elephant, so dont say monuments means nothing to u guys (I know Sanghis like u have big pain in the *** when the see Tajmahal as symbol of India and they try to give credit to some obscure rajput king….funny!!)

    And in archtecture you can never compare you can never compare Jantar Mantar with any of the medieval monuments of delhi (though u sanghis always belittle the muslim contribution to india). By the way Humayun was himself accomplished astronomer and there are loads of sultanate monuments in delhi which were used for the purpose of astronomy.

    Look how even spain which from centuries avoided the muslim past as dark past and shunned it, is embracing the muslim history as rich history and they accept it as a part of their history now. The maximum number of tourist now in spain go to alhambra, which was top and only contender for new seven wonder from spain
    anyway Hard Sanghis like Sanjeev or whateva are impossible to convince……they have mental block!!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Delhi….
    your statement “Delhi is undergoing terrible reprogramming (Modernization) now a days ie the remnant of the Muslim past is being purged slowly”

    Please list all the muslim names which are purged..

    some of your statements are similar to islamic supremacists..
    Why are your fellow brothers in Af-pak area demoslishing Buddhist statues ?

    Can your religious apartheid Meccans welcome back Jewish people ?
    Jews were living there for hundreds of years before Mo showed up and declared a muslim only place and personally killed hundreds of innocent jewish civilians ?

    Spain is in a different league (due to european enlightenment) and ready to accept history as true history (good, bad, ugly)…

    Why are your mosques pointed towards Meccah (a religious apartheid place) ??

    Delhi Reply:

    Well I agree the names are not directly changed atleast in delhi, but new localities are settled next to the old ones and old ones slowly get lost in history like Yusuf sarai is better known as green park!! I am not against new indian names but what bugs me is the english names……like new nake called Yamuna bank in hindi it is also yamuna bank…WTF why cant it be Yamuna Kinare or some other local word…..why so embarassment in having F***ing indian names!!!

    “Why are your fellow brothers in Af-pak area demoslishing Buddhist statues ?”

    well this is big problem of all the sanghis that whatever happens in Afghanistan or pakistan they ask questions to Indian muslims….well the answer is that..we cant answer..we are sorrry ….we are not their representative or spokesperson!!! and we have no sympathy for them only we have names similar!!!! and demolishing of buddhist statue is condemned vociferously by mulsm world too…for ur info!!!

    “Can your religious apartheid Meccans welcome back Jewish people ?”

    I am not sure if jewish people want to come to Mecca, but whatever there promised land was, they got there by hook or crook….they are back in palestine….and not by peaceful process actually…..but by huge mass transfer of population of palestenian…htese poor palestinians are driven from their own home and when they fight back they are branded as terrorist against the peaceful Israel………….

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims in India, Af-Pakistan, Bangladesh are very close in several aspects.

    They think in similar ways and want the same things (mostly).

    All muslims in Af-pak, Bangla are living in islamic countries.

    Given a chance Muslims in india, also want to declare sharia and blashpemy laws in India.
    The only thing stopping muslims in india (from self destructing) is Secular Hindus and to a certain degree their minority status.

    If the numbers are reversed in India (hindu and muslims are opposite in percetnages), India would be a living hell hole for Hindus with Jizya, blasphemy, dhimmitude, ritual throat killings….

    When you say, muslims condemn the destruction of Buddhist statues, why dont muslims stop just cheap talk.
    Instead they can raise funds and reconstruct it.
    Deep in their hearts they agree with Taliban, except for crocodile tears to pretend that they dont belong.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Are you making your own statement “Delhi is undergoing reprogramming” or is there a DMCC initiative called “Reprogramming”? If not, you are doing a terrible thing ito insinuate.

    Delhi has a significant share of population who are the descendents of the Hindu victims of partition. They all came penniless, leaving everything behind, and in many cases wittnessing horrible acts of violence on their relatives and friends. If they are in the majority in these decision making bodies, I can clearly see their motivation in changing these names or not using the muslim rulers’ names on newly constructed buildings.

    Btw, it is arrogant to be sarcastic about “southie” names like “puram”. Delhi is the Indian capital; South India is India too.

    Last time I checked there was a Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg and many other Muslim named roads.
    Was the great emperor Akbar based in Delhi? If so, I would agree that a park/monument should be named after him in Delhi. .

    Regarding Shah Jahan’s statue in Agra — isnt Taj Mahal a permanent statue for him? Anyway, the way things are going, Mayawati will have her statue there; she may even say she contributed to the appropriation of land for the construction of Taj Mahal.

    Anyway, if a statue making decision is made, do not hand over the authority for construction to the same guys who built the new Delhi railway station!

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Thanx for writing well articulate comments on Zia’s articles.

    If people like me ask him tough questions then he will call me rabid hindu.

    Its better if people from other religions also expose these bigots and psedo intellectuals like Zia

    Thanx for you doing duty of a true indian otherwise these muslim morons will impose sharia in few decades.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Why doesnt he compare Lahore and Delhi..

    Lahore & Delhi
    How many Muslim and Hindu names are there in 1947

    Now how many Muslim/Hindu names are still there (original and renamed ones..)

    Puram has sanskrit origin, so even if they are used more by “southies” it is acceptable by others.

    But muslim names are arabic and are hard to understand, so why should they be used ?

    and most of the islamic kings killed collectively millions of Hindus (as they are kafirs), so why should all such names be purged ??

    Sam Reply:

    Zia does two things.

    1. Explain the beauty of islam, so hindus have nothing to fear
    “remove phobia out of islamophobia”

    2. Provide fodder for islamists for all their pet peeves like this article.

    He better write about Jizya on Hindus/Sikhs in Pakistan, blasphemy..2woman=1man,,,
    so that some citizens in pakistan like woman, Ahmadis, Hindus should not have islamophobia
    (I am dreaming, hope my dreams come true).

    Either Zia does not have the guts to take on mullahs in his own religion, or he passively agrees with them in Islam’s right for oppressing anyone other than muslim man.

    Delhi Reply:

    Hey sam
    you said puram and all are sanskrit names therefore can be accepted, so lets unite together and ask southies to learn hindi and their own mother tongue will they acccept. I accept to learn hindi (hindustani), and one south Indian language and lets kick out colonial English from india do u think India will survive. you talk about unity let me see how long india stick together without colonial language. The truth is that we are very badly trapped in English and it is difficult to get rid of, and lazy government policies making it more difficult. Our native language are getting weaker and weaker and english takes over.

    @ whoever said there are mughal name of the roads

    These roads are named way back in 1930s when delhi was still colonial indias capital, therefore all these were named much earlier.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    People are already learning Hindi in most of schools of southern india.

    kicking out english,,is probably not going to happen in a globalised world.
    English/Americans won this language battle at a global level.
    Now even chinese want to learn english and are having schools to teach millions and millions of children. They are doing this on their own to be part of globalized world.

    If you want to kick out english, let us kick out arabic also and ban books in arabic.

    S Singh Reply:

    “The Road to Delhi is Far away”….

    Why are these liberals always looking for a blind spot and tying everything with that?
    There is never a destination in democracy; it is a constant “perfecting” process. USA is still working on its democracy after 225 years, with a far less diverse population and issues than us.

    It is childish to expect an Utopia. People are people.They have emotions, experience, baggage, history.

    Sixty years is too short a time in historical terms.

    [Reply]

    Nikhil Reply:

    Last i was in town, there was an Akbar road, Humayun road and even a Aurangzeb road…that i guess answers a part of the question..As for monuments, the jama masjid, the humayun’s tomb and may such mughal monuments stand tall. it is a matter of great shame that people like you still indulge in nitpicking. The beauty of my city and home, delhi is in the fact that it has always accepted change and continutity alongside. and for your kind information, Delhi is the capital of the entire country and not just the south, what on earth do you mean by a southie name.. it is gits like you, who give fodder to mad freaks from both side of the religious divide. would ask you to get your facts right before commenting on random issues….

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @ delhi @ nikhil

    Agree with Nikhil. These are nitpicking issues.

    I did not sense any language or religious issue when I rented. My wife is friends with all the other wives in the building .

    I do not doubt Zia’s statement; very difficult to believe because 1)I never had an experience like that 2) There are two Muslim families in my building.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    So what is wrong with having them in the Capital city, to celebrate the diversity in India ?

    Delhi already has muslim names.

    If anything it has less of names from other parts of India.

    Gurumukhi, Shivaji, Ambedkar, “Puram” are all part of india.

    So if at all, to balance history with diversity, there should be more names from
    Bengal, Orissa, Tamil, Kerala, Kannada, North east…

    in Delhi.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Delhi,
    I think you have read the book, “The Last Mughals”, where the author expresses similar views. Your anguish is understandable but quite misplaced. If you are wondering about lack of statues of Mughal emperors, you should ask yourself why there are hardly any statues of Muslim personalities. Unfortunately, there is a section within the Muslim community that thinks that building statues of people is not accordance with rules of Islam. That is the prime reason why you don’t see statues of whoever you are asking for. Rather than worry about such tangential issues why not ask questions like what Zia has put forward and find answers to them.
    As for no roads named after Mughal emperors, buddy you must have been blind or smoking the wrong stuff while you were in Delhi. Your comment about Puram Shuram is in bad taste. It has nothing to do with ’southie’ or northie. That colony derives it’s name from Ram Krishna. It’s quite sad that you don’t know that.

    [Reply]

    Delhi Reply:

    Ok I accept Puram comment in bad taste, but what about english names of the metro….They shud be atleast in Hindu or Indian names!!!! how many names of paris metro can u pronounce when u r there…………..but they wont change!!

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Delhi,
    don’t you see an irony in your position: you are arguing your case in an English daily and then you want to ban all English sounding names! You forgot we also had British living here and english is now one of the Indian languages. It’s that simple! Btw, why should French change their names because someone cannot pronounce them. I am so happy that my parents named me Amit otherwise, who knows, there would have been demand from some quarters that I change my name.

  • S Singh

    There are several points Zia brings up; of course with the usual twists.

    - Discrimination in Housing
    - Preferential treatment to majority community by civic bodies
    -Professional instigators (mostly from the majority community; however, he says they are also in the minority community)
    - Need for government department to monitor trouble makers
    - Need for local level organizations to prevent religious troubles
    - The road to Delhi is far away; it will take for ever to realize a Delhi ((India) where all can live happily ever after

    It is dificult to discuss all of these in one sitting; let me give my points on housing.

    It is upto the landlord whom he rents to. Many do not rent to non-vegetarians, because they do not want non-vegetarian cooking in their building; partly because of smell etc, and partly because of the fear that the vegetarian occupants in other flats will leave. Many landlords assume Muslims are non-vegetarians. That does not make it right or wrong; it is his property, he can rent or not rent the way he chooses.

    North Indians may not rent to South Indians (actually, there now is a preference for South Indians; theY assume these guys are brainy and do not bother anybody else); One may not rent to a BPO/Call Center employee because of work in the night shift ..the list goes on.

    Landlord has several considerations. A renter has a choice as to what apartment he wants. A landlord has a choice as to whom he wants as a tenent.

    Landlord is OK as long as he does not violate the law.

    [Reply]

    Dbzz Reply:

    Dear SS

    Housing discrimination can’t be argued from one side. We also need to answer can any Hindu go and live in Muslim majority area? I don’t know the answer but my guess is No. Housing discrimination happens all over the world. I have lived in US, Singapore and UK. At least in these countries society is segregated by combination of one or more factors like culture, skin color and race. Culture being the most dominant factor. I have seen societies in singapore being converted from singaporean chinese to indian as more indians move in area , chinese left. same is true in US. Most of the blacks live in separate areas.

    I am all for tolerance but it has to analysed in perspective.

    Note: I am not stating any fact. Only my observations.

    [Reply]

  • http://ht--------- sanjeev

    A usual Zia stuff of crying for discrimination against muslims. Zia if you have some guts give answer to this question.

    Why only muslims being denied home whereas other communities like Christains, Sikhs, Jains, Budhist don’t ?

    If you will logically investigate you yourself will find where the fault lies. Come out of your habit of accusing others for all your ills.

    “So I chose predominantly Hindu districts”

    My comment:
    So that you can pray upon beautiful hindu girls while keeping your own daughters in burkha. This is a common muslims trait the world over.
    Secondly you are very clever to enjoy the salubrious climes and hygenic surroundings found in other community dominated areas.

    Every one knows that you people want to make a hell out of every good place coz your god visits only dirty localities.

    If you are so concerned about multiculturalism why don’t you go and teach it to 55 countries of Organization oF Islamic countries. Don’t say you can’t, if you can’t you should resolve not to visit Saudi Arabia ( the land of exclusivists) and land of pedophiles and rapists.

    “A park certainly is not a place for a mass prayer, even though only twice a year, each time lasting half an hour.”

    My comment :

    you people are violating rules and then ask making hoax cries for discrimination. Then people with criminal minds might justify riots also even if they are violation of laws and humanity. They will say we enjoy it and do it only once in few years. Will you side with them ?

    “I advocate the setting up of a ministry for communal harmony. ”

    My comment:

    Tommorrow you will ask for separate ministry for quran affairs also. So where should we end then ?

    [Reply]

    Nikhil Reply:

    What is your bloody point?? we kill everyone who does not fit into the brackets of what you call the ‘majority’ community. And unlike Saudi arabia, India happens to be a democracy.. and please tell me what is wrong with a ministry for communal harmony, or do you fail to understand good plain english.You sound like one of the stupid nazi freaks and are in many way similar to fundamentalist jokers the world over

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Nikhil

    The hollow statements like hindi-chini bhai-bhai are nothing but fooling the ignorant masses.
    The world have seen muslims can’t live peacefully with any other community. The examples extend from Phillipines in the east to Kosovo in the west.

    The only language they understand is that of violence.

    Its their holy quran which preaches hatred against other religions.

    Are the soft fundamentalists like Zia willing to lead a caimpaign to ban quran ?

    I am sure you are either a teenager or ignorant of basic principles of quran.

    Read this blog for few months you will obviously know the true face of Islam.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    I didn’t understand your including hind–chini bhai bhai thing. What has that got to do with Zia not finding a house for rent? That was totally random, man.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Nikhil

    I don’t have any problem with other religions like Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Christianity etc. But ISLAM is a political ideology and not religion. the aim this ideology is similar to communism.

    Thats why I am islamophobe.

    [Reply]

    time Reply:

    To hell with your opinion and your problems!!!!
    hahhahaa

    Amit Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    You need some beer, man. There is no need for such vile things to be said or such personal attacks.
    “So that you can pray upon beautiful hindu girls while keeping your own daughters in burkha. ”
    That is just plain disgusting. More than anything else, you are embarrassing your own parents who I am sure would be appalled to hear such stuff coming from you.

    [Reply]

    Sameer Reply:

    @NIkhil,Amit

    Open your eyes buddy…it is because of u gys…who could not see through the islamic cunnig that India is suffering from the scourage of fundamenatlism..and so much hatred..just try to make muslim see the logic in koran and their practices…and see their response…u will get the answer…so called hindu fundamentalism..is in response to the muslim vileness…so, before calling Sanjeev bigot…first try to see things rather then just look…

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Amit

    This is a truth that i have experienced during my university life. Muslim boys are always hunting for hindu girls and when they succeed then they publicly tell people about how they did it all to hindu girl,

    Hope you get out of ignorance before it is too late. Watch “Khuda ke liye” pakistani movie.

    Regards

    sanjeev

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    @Sanjeev,
    From what I remember from my college days in Delhi, it was mutually reciprocated from girls too. Girls were equally enthusiastic about dating Muslim guys whom they thought to be more dashing and having less hangups like you do. It used to make us jealous, but that’s life. Get over it. You don’t have to spend sleepless nights thinking about the girls who chose Muslim guys over you. Think from a girl’s point of view: who would want to hear your rant on a date. I thought we lived in a free country. It’s not they came in and abducted those prancing beauties. That’s why I suggested some beer, maybe some rum too. “Gum ka sathi rum”
    :)

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Amit

    It makes me laugh that only muslim boys are dashing. Why don’t you accept that they get pat on their back from muslim elders upon being successful in this endeavour.

    If they can go around with girls from other religions then why they issue fatwa and all and pressurize if any muslim girl go around with a guy from other religions ?

    Your “dashing” hypothesis doesn’t hold true. If it is then only for inferior people like you. Come out of your inferiority complex.

    “You don’t have to spend sleepless nights thinking about the girls who chose Muslim guys over you ”

    I don’t spend sleepless nights over others actions. But I can’t allow people like Zia to use HT space to spred his half lies.

    I have my own choice and she gives a kick on a***s of these bearded mullahs.

    “Gum” is for you only and not for me. If sometime it will i know my own ways to overcome also. For that i don’t need help from clinical psychologists like you.

    Have your advice to yourself.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim boys can have upto 4 wifes.

    So just dont blame them for not having their lust under control.
    Blame the society for letting muslim males going out of control with their sex mania.

    blame hindus for this sorry state of affairs.

    Hindus are in self destruct mode and inspite of being the most oppressed and poorest (in global context) they do not realize their own self interests.

    Amit Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    I guess the wound runs deep. It’s ok. We all have been rejected sometime in our lives. That “dashing” hypothesis is not mine but of some girls. Why blame Muslim guys for their “conquest”. They must have been obviously good at it. Why not be more constructive and hone your seduction skills so that you don’t have to burn with jealously every time you see a Muslim guy snatch away your girl of dreams.
    Trust me a swig of that good stuff helps.
    :)

    Sam Reply:

    the society lets a muslim to have uncontrolled lust to “conquer” 4 woman.
    so by having this law, the society is encouraging muslim males.

    if hindu males are also have the same rights, then they also have incentive to be “dashing”.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Amit

    Why don’t you admit that it is quran which says if you convert one kaffir into ISLAM then its equivalent five of Hajj. It is a basic strategy of educated mullahs to lure girls from other relgions and marry and give them Arabic names and put them into burkhas.

    In a way it is their covert operation to ISLAMIZE INDIA.

    Come out of your deep wound theory, the university I studied is out of the reach of these mullahs. As their intellectual level starts and ends with Madrsas. If only there were some mullahs they were confined to Urdu, Arabic, Persian languages. Very rarely out 1 out of 100 in rest deptt.

    The example of luring women from other relgions was set by the greatest pedophile, rapist and murderer called Mohammad, Prophet of God.

    Mitra Reply:

    In spite of the fact that Zia writes about interesting things, his blog is depressing because of the sheer number of Hindu fanatics posting comments here. If most Indians were like people on this blog, RSS/Bajrang Dal goons could have contested and won all elections! But hopefully most people don’t agree with the rot that is posted here.

    Paul Brass and Ashutosh Varshney are both well regarded experts on Hindu Muslim violence. Its good to see their books quoted and discussed. Journalists sometimes stay away from serious research, but Zia is different! One thing almost all studies (including those by Indian/foreign journalists, academics etc) agree on is that the Hindu extremist groups(RSS/Bajrang Dal/VHP) play a CENTRAL role in instigating the vast majority of these riots. The majority of the people killed and the majority of the property destroyed is that of Muslims.

    Just in case some Hindu bigot here makes a hackneyed point about terrorist attacks, most terrorist attacks are carried out by Islamic extremists from Pakistan and not by Indian Muslims and they are condemned by every Indian Muslim religious/political authority under the sun.

    On my previous posts, someone thought I was a Muslim because I am not a bigot. I am a Hindu Bengali brought up in a religious household. You guys should understand that there are plenty of Hindus who are decent people and not fanatics! Just because you hang around with your Hindu nationalist friends- does not mean that all Hindus think like that! Then India would have been a Hindu version of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia!

    Sameer Reply:

    Hey….hey….u ..know since u r hindu..and bengali…..that only makes u decent…and gives u so much liberty to support your muslim brethern…can same be said of your muslim freinds…can they publicly support hindu practices….

    Thank god .u have…hindu god….otherwise…u know…haa…ha…..

    Bye the way, all the guys are decent here..they are only discussing…..had they been fanatic ..allof those u r so called hindu fanatcs would have been on streets…..

    And any way …in riots it is only minorities which suffer most..same can be applied to Pakistan, bangladesh and India…however there is no recourse in islamic countries…in democracy u have means to redress such grievences…..

    S Singh Reply:

    Fruc—- Paul Brass and Mitra can talk about violence…

    Zia’s discussion is about how far Delhi is from ideal.

    They have not heard their grandfather talking about the run for his life, with a young wife and two children and his aged parents.

    A prosperous businessman, having to leave everything behind, but a sheer will to survive.

    How his will was broken when he waited for his friend and family at the Delhi station, only to see their dead bodies; but how it made him even more committed to build a new life in “his” country that he will not let anybody else take.

    Lot of those grandparents are alive in Delhi. Lot of children have grown up hearing about those atrocities.

    For Paul and Mitra, it is a chapter of their analysis.

    For me and many others , unfortunately, it is our “heirloom”.

    I am a rational man, and I know a 20 year old Muslim boy in today’s Delhi did not cause it.

    However, I also know many are not rational; and assign guilt. And all of us ahve to live with that.

    Paul Brass and his violence theories! Give me a break.

    Sam Reply:

    Well the same 20 yr old boy is being taught this in their mosque or madrassah..

    1. we ruled india for 800 yrs
    2. Inshallah we will do it again.
    3. we are tolerant people, if we wanted we could have killed/raped/converted everyone to islam..

    all that ****…

    The question for Hindus is, should intolerance be tolerated ?
    Hindus are basically stupid in tolerating things, which want them to be exterminated…

    they dont seem to learn from history..
    so they will pay another big price, another big price, until they are extinguished..

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Gopi

    I agree with you on the book by Dr Zakaria. I also recommend people read MJ Akbar’s preface to the book “the central question is where they have gone wrong..Whenever they have forgotten their Indian roots. perhaps the last word should be left to the great poet Akbar Allahabadi -

    “Paamal hai magar hai sabit kadam wafa main
    Hum mist-e-sang-e-dar kay is aastan par ban”

    ( Though crushed, we are firm in our loyalty, we are like a rock at the threshold of our country”

    Sam Reply:

    why doesnt zia quote both sides of the issue like Muslim violent groups like Let, Jaish,..SIMI..

    show what they are thinking..

    write how they are planning for bomb attacks.

    how they want to kill maximum number of Hindus..

    Zia should be able to contact them, being in Delhi.

    Why qoute some person, who is not living here ?

    Indian Reply:

    Well Mitra,

    Since you gave your background, I will do so too. I am a tamilian who has lived in gujarat, mumbai, gurgaon and blore. I am convent educated and from a moderate hindu family.

    Well you are a little off facts frankly. Which studies are you quoting. I have seen gujarat closely and invariably all riots have been started by muslims (including 2002). Invariably in the 35 riots happened in gujarat post independence, hindus have always suffered more and died in more number. And no sanghi was even close – it was infact the congresss. Pre-independence is offcourse an other story. Only hindus died and suffered. So Please take a chill pill and stop spewing nonsensical venom. Also, what about the riots before the sanghis were formed? What is your logic to it? Obviously your left front filled knowledge is highly manipulated.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Indian @Mitra

    I conceptually agree with Indian; at the same time, I also believe the 2002 killings is a blemish on us.

    Part of the problem is the tendency of the left and of Muslim minority to always nitpick. India is a country of 1.1 billion people. So, there is always something in the air that triggers problems. Many had written off India in its early years of independence -, that it cannot pull togetehr a diverse country of different languages, lifestyles, religious beliefs. We have disproved that theory; and we are a well-respected country in the world today; not just because of our economic , food self-sfficiency,and educational achievements etc; but more imporatntly, the skill we have dispalyed in pulling a diverse country forward, for most part together as a team.
    There is no parallel to this – in fact the total opposite thing happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died – it split into linguistic and ethnic countries.

    I belong to a minority group. The problems which Zia talks about – difficulty in getting a residence – obviously is unique to him or by extension, to Muslims. First of all, I find it very difficult to believe that an assistant editor of HT has to approach 9 landlords before he got one. Even if it is true, he should be happy that it took only 9 trials and not 900 trials, although one trial would have been preferable. Landlord can make his decision the way he wants. I did not have any problem in getting a flat in the most desirable part of the city; neither any of my cousins and other relatives in the city.. So, if some of the Muslims are facing discrimination in obtaining a flat; they should explore legal avenues ( legal options may be possible if the flat is a part of a government scheme and not totally private).

    If the landlord does not have a problem in renting out to Sikhs or Christians (like me), but if he does not rent to Muslims, obvuiously he has some mental reservations about Muslims. He may have myriads of reasons for that; right or wrong; justifiable or not.. It is Muslims’ responsibility to understand those and adapt/respond appropriately if they want to rent flats. If not, they will continue to get rejected, or will have to build their own flats, further increasing the “ghettoization” they vehemently compalint about.

    You cannot say the landlord is not open-minded ; may be “not-enough open minded”. Tough life! Most of the people have some emntal blocks, right or wrong.

    Sam Reply:

    or how about the other way..
    Who is the most preferred tenant for a muslim landlord ?
    (I would not be surprised if muslims are not the preferred tenant even for a muslim landlord).

    on the other hand, why can’t muslims give reasons that they will be ideal or model tenants ? and become the most preferred people to rent to ..

    maybe the landlord is afraid that some muslims maybe making bombs in their flats.
    What if the bombs explode in that process ? or maybe muslims always nitpick ?
    or maybe the behave like ex-kings and the landlord should be their servant ?
    or maybe they think landlord should give the flat without rent (as part of Jizya, koran demands..)

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mitrababu,
    You are suffering from Stockholm syndrome so you see to see doctor immediatly.
    Your kind of people are responsible for 60% bengali speaking people converting to Islam. You have no backbone so you just give up and accept muslim hegemony.

    This same kind of attitude can be seen among punjabi. Almost 70% of punjabi speakers are now muslims. I think they converted for two reasons..cowardice and greed just like Bengalis.

    S Singh Reply:

    @Rajeev

    Conversions, if not forced, is an individual issue – may be greed, may be strong conviction, may be safety etc. However, al have equal rights; nobody has special rights.

    You are right! Bengalis must have been terrible oppressors for such a large number to convert to the equalities of Islam! The same tormentors are intellectuals now lecturing others… hahahahahahh.

    Also, busily shutting down any economic opportunities, so m ore can convert!

    Hope Reply:

    No they converted because of the casteism system of hinduism. but bow a day south indians in large numbers are converting cos of greed of money and systematic porpoganada o evangelist!!!!!

    Akash Reply:

    @ Rajeev,
    You can expand you list to include Rajputs and Jats, both of the communities known for their greed and “cowardice”. Of course, when it comes to cowardice, no one can beat Afghans who converted to Islam from Buddhism en masse.
    It’s good to think sometimes before putting things on paper.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    I guess you did not think this thru properly. The land of Afghanistan was lost very early and has no connection with India.
    What percentage of Rajputs are muslims maybe 20% and jats max 20%.

    But Bengalis and Punjabis are the only one who converted en masse..the reason can be anywhere from greed..to casteism..Zajiya…to cowardice.

    Think..use your brain..6 years of UPA rule backed by biased media has turned most of the Indians into ZOMBIES with no brain of their own.

    By the way don’t play casteism bogey for the reason behind conversion if that is the cas why are there still 300 million dalits still hindu. It was pure opression..the poorest of the poor i.e. dalits could not afford to pay Zajiya so they converetd,

    There is casteism in sub-continental Islam…namely Ashrafs upper caste (decendents of foreign invaders) and Arjals (decendents of Indian converts including barahmins)..

    Learn before you spew garbage on forum.

    Rajeev Reply:

    You can try all you want but you can never convince soft terrorists like Bobby and Zia that muslims need to look inwards.

    I think these soft Jehadis are the true culprits who promote idelogy of hate and terrorism by continuously spinning tales of opression for clueless aam muslims.

    It is time US and other countries give more attentions towards soft jehadis because the harm caused by these bigots is much bigger than 100 osamas put together.

    Bobby Reply:

    as usual lies are being thrown around with the belief that lies repeated several times make them “The Truth” automatically.

    For people who do care about the facts, should look at the following excerpts from the various commissions set up to date on various riots in India.

    http://www.sabrang.com/srikrish/hinrole.htm

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Amit
    Yes of course, Those girls must have been great intellectuals as against the Bimbos Loving Kasab. If the Dashing Muslim means physically dashing then you are implying that for girls even the intellectual ones, looks matter more that any other parameter. Any one for feminism or the post versions ?

    Now if your dashing by any chance was meant to be non-physical then here is a quiz for you. Explain the mystery behind disappearance of MOST of the Dashing Muslims after college life. Does the blame lie with the vile Bramhins (incl Banias? Or all high caste hindus) who, as Secular theologians have proved conclusively, have usurped all the power, money and fame that was to be had in india?

    Now back to your bimbo thing. As we see on this blog, the authority to determine one’s IQ, Mental stability has always been with the Great Secular Hopes of India. Unfortunately it is these low IQ Hindus who have captured everything again as per the Secular theologians.

    BTW will you tell me what is wrong with loving Kasab as long as he is cute, even if not as handsome as those who have made your life worth living, although with swigs of rum every now and then

    Why? never heard, hate the sin not the sinner. Why should a NOBLE principle like love be bound by such ordinary constraints? Never heard Love and Faith can overcome anything? From where most of the Indian Secular Theology stands, your ascribing bimbo and dumbo titles to those girls would be treated as bigotry, well may be not NOW for ALL of them, give it 5 years for all of them

    Interesting also is your conclusive findings of Muslims (is it Muslims in general? Or most of them?) being Dashing because girls were falling over each other to get into their beds. In that case, why is it so offensive when these principles are applied to Kasabs?

    Politically convenient Morality sanctified by Constitution : synonyms Please? Hindutva?

    Amit Reply:

    SKS,
    I know the “dashing” Muslims that went to my college are doing pretty well, at least in temporal matters. That “dashing” muslims comment was made just to needle Sanjeev. As expected, he took the bait and came up with more nonsense. I never said that it was my theory, but it was just some hearsay. I never claimed that I was so uplifted that I could forgive the sinner but not his sin. I feel angry when this whole charade about trying Kasab in court is being carried out. He should be hanged at the earliest, and I am glad that the foreign office is keeping a steady pressure on Pakistan to prosecute those rascals who carried out the Bombay attacks. But, I disagree with bigots like Sanjeev who extrapolate their hatred for Pakistan to Indian Muslims. That is just plain wrong.

    As I have said before, it’s a free country and everyone is free to love or make love to whoever they choose. But, equally, I am right to express my disgust when someone proclaim their love for a psychopath like Kasab, and I wholeheartedly support that RJ to shout them down and make cutting remarks about their IQ etc.

    “Explain the mystery behind disappearance of MOST of the Dashing Muslims after college life. Does the blame lie with the vile Bramhins (incl Banias? Or all high caste hindus) who, as Secular theologians have proved conclusively, have usurped all the power, money and fame that was to be had in india?”

    I have no idea what you are talking. Don’t make excuses. India now is like the old west. There is new wealth to be earned and new avenues to be explored. So, stop wasting your energy in useless conspiracy theories and tired old arguments. They would do nothing but hold you back. I am amazed that no one here talks about APJ, our former president. For every Sanjeev, there are 10 people who are willing to stand up for you and your rights.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Gopi
    I must repeat it, your ability to hope is really inspiring and so is your persistence.

    Moer power to your tribe.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    Thanks. I thought peolple have spoken for development and growth in the lst election. They understand a riding tide lifts all. Our liberals and secularists just d o not get it.

    Just have to push!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Mr Centerist
    Your sudden entry with a new principle that no one discussed before on this blog and your interesting self description as centerist would normally be considered dubious. But given the variety of opinions (actually more beliefs than opinions) that can and do exist in India
    I am willing to believe that you genuinely believe in what you have written.

    In that case, I only have to say that we as a nation and most certainly as a state have traveled too far from that position. To define one’s nationality and/or citizenship, especially in Indian context on the basis of whether he follows an Indic religion or an Abrahamic one, is insulting and degrading even to a self confessed hindu bigot like me. By your principle many of present day countries would be left with very few citizens. Nearly, all the europeans follow religions which did not originate anywhere near those countries.
    Frankly, opinions like yours do not even deserve refutation, because even the act of refuting a position means that position is worth something. The only reason, I have even responded to this is to let you know that your real objectives are way too obvious and so is your attempt to hide your real identity

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    AMIT Bhai

    You are 100% right, when you say “Girls were equally enthusiastic about dating Muslim guys whom they thought to be more dashing and having less hangups like you do”

    There are enthusiastic girls in Mumbai also, who are waiting for Mr. Ajmal Kasab’s acquittal, you know why? becoz “He is so cuteeeeeeeeeeee No………..”

    I can’t say how many, but I know of at least 2 who have declared their love for Mr Ajmal the cuteee
    on live FM radio. Imagine the poor girl with dreams in her eyes was shouted at by the Rabid Hindu Radio Jockey. I hope these kind of RJs are thrown out of the FM Channel’s office and if possible from the country also. That is the only hope for Secular India.

    Long Live Indian Secularism
    Long live Muslims and Secular Hindus

    Amit Reply:

    @Sam
    “if hindu males are also have the same rights, then they also have incentive to be “dashing”.”

    That’s a lame argument, man. It is the language of losers.

    @Sanjeev,
    Grow up man. You don’t have to shout to be heard. With attitude like that, it’s no surprise that you are still chaffing over your rejection by those girls. It’s a free country and everyone is allowed to make their own decisions. Don’t blame your failures on someone else. In someways, you are guilty of exactly the same thing which you are saying of Muslims or, more specifically, of Zia.

    Amit Reply:

    @SKS,

    I doubt if the girls I was referring to meant the same kind of dashing Muslims that Kasab is representing. These girls that you are talking about should get their heads examined. No wonder, those RJs shouted them down. Those bimbos.are pathetic.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Amit

    It makes me laugh at your ignorance. Either you are an astrologist or some one like “Sanjay” of “mahabharata” fame who can see from a distance what the other person is doing or what happened to him.

    I told you in clear terms, the university and college I studied was out of the reach of the intellectual level of Mullahs. Hardly some bearded mullahs (in their three quarters pyjama) used to land directly in UPA ( Urdu, Persian, Arabic). These were all men deptts or else some burkhas, the mullahs in these used to land directly from Bihar, UP madrasas.

    Unsolicited advice not welcome.

    I know what inferiority complex you might have suffered during your college days. One thing is for sure to me. Don’t think everybody have looks as well as intellectual level you might be having. I know for sure that I am far better than a person who is victim of inferiority complex.

    Regarding me you keep on propounding your own experienced hypothesis, which btw can’t even reach anywhere near reality.

    teach your seduction skills to your children so that they don’t have to undergo the inferiority complex which you suffer from.

    Atleast I don’t need them in this life. You keep on moving the path you are going on.

  • ram

    Hi Zia

    An articulate and interesting article from your blog as usual. Unfortunately it attracts regular share of bigots as is the norm. I wish the hateful and bigoted comments could be deleted by users as is in case of websites like rediff.com

    Id Mubarak

    Warm Regards

    Ram

    Singapore

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Ram

    You are living in a fools paradise. It makes me laugh.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Ram…
    Let zia focus on Jizya, blasphemy, woman’s rights..religious apartheid…

    these are a lot bigger human rights violations than the alleged discrimination in housing.

    So what is stopping him from taking bigger issues or more important issues ?

    or he cares only on muslim issues (only if they are affected, but not if they are causing them)..

    [Reply]

  • http://ht--------- sanjeev

    Zia

    Have you ever come across terms called religious exclusivism and religious pluralism ? I hope you have only heard of them and never did any thinking over them.

    Relgious exclusivism is the root cause of all inter religious problems. You muslims morons have massacred billions of people in the name of going to jannat. and now if other communities have stood up to your challenge you talk of communal harmony ?

    Relgious Exclusivism

    It is the doctrine that the adherents of a particular faith, or group of faiths, will attain salvation while groups that do not share this faith will not attain the blessings associated with such a state. In its more extreme form, religious exclusivism teaches that only the members of one religion or sect will reach Heaven, while others will be doomed to eternal damnation.

    Exclusivism is most prevalent in Abrahamic religions. In Jewish tradition, it manifests in certain interpretations of the concepts of the Chosen people, in which anyone who does not accept the teachings of Jewish monotheism is excluded from the messianic “world to come.” In Christianity, religious exclusivism is seen in the former teachings of the Catholic Church and the current teachings of several denominations that only those who adhere to the true faith will reach Heaven, while those outside of the true church will go to Hell. Exclusivism is seen in Islam in the acceptance of sincere Jews and Christians as people “of the Book” along with Muslims, but the rejection of other religious traditions—as well as impious Jews and Christians—as “infidels” who have no part in Allah or paradise.

    Islamic exclusivism

    Islam began its history with an exclusivist attitude toward pagan religions, but an inclusivist attitude toward Christians and Jews. As people “of the Book,” believers in the God of Abraham were given the status of dimmi, conferring on them certain rights, including the right to practice their religions openly and not to be pressured to accept Islam. Those outside of the Judeo-Christian sphere, however, were considered to be infidels. They could be forced to convert on pain of death.

    The basic attitude of Islam toward other religions remains unchanged today, but it should be noted that certain Islamic nations, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, are more exclusivistic toward other religions than are others, such as Indonesia and Egypt. In addition, Islamic fundamentalist groups strongly oppose the relaxation of Islamic exclusivism, seeking instead a return to the strict standards they believe are taught in Islamic tradition.

    Now do some googling who are the foresmost relgious pluralists.

    The Hindu religion is naturally pluralistic. A well-known Rig Vedic hymn stemming from Hinduism claims that “Truth is One, though the sages know it variously.” (Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti) The Hindu religion has no theological difficulties in accepting degrees of truth in other religions. Just as Hindus worshiping Ganesh is seen as valid by those worshiping Vishnu, so someone worshiping Jesus or Allah is accepted. Many foreign deities become assimilated into Hinduism, and some Hindus may sometimes offer prayers to Jesus along with their traditional forms of God. For this reason, Hinduism usually has good relations with other religious groups accepting pluralism. In particular, Hinduism and Buddhism coexist peacefully in many parts of the world.

    Harmony can be among equals and like minded people. Do you want friendship between CAT and MOUSE. Only the cat would advocate this sort of relationship. You are nothing but a cat in disguise.

    You muslims intellectulas stop befooling other religious faiths especially Eastern religions. Only christians and jews know you best and they are offfering you the treatment you deserve.

    Rejoice whatever you are getting.

    Have you come across law of Karma. This is perfect example of law of karma.

    I think the best that has happened to humanity is the American attacks on muslim fanatics in Afghanistan and Iraq. The people of this generation are paying for what their forefathers did.

    The same should apply to India also.

    So don’t cry and enjoy.

    [Reply]

    Nikhil Reply:

    You are not exactly making a great plea for any religion and are just providing the worst advertisement for Hinduism across the world..Such bigotry destroy the essence of well balanced blogs like this one..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    please show where Sanjeev’s statement are bigotry ?

    Which statements are those ?

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    Where did you get that billion figure from?

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ akash

    80 milliom hindus alone were massacred by theses muslim morons in middle ages.

    In his Growth of Muslim Population in India, Prof KS Lal estimates that the Hindu population decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD and 1525 AD, an extermination unparalleled in world history.

    K S Lal is former chairman of INDIAN COUNCIL OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH (ICHR)

    The conquest of Afghanistan in 1000 AD saw the annihilation of its entire Hindu population. Even today, this region is known as the ˜Hindu Kush, which literally means ˜Hindu slaughter, named after that massacre. In 1399, Taimur killed 1,00,000 Hindus in a single day, and the Bahamani Sultans made it a sacred duty to kill 1,00,000 Hindus every year.

    1971-72 2 million Hindus eradicated by muslim Pakistan army.

    It is tragic that thousands of educated and intelligent Indians seek to negate the Hindu Holocaust mostly unwittingly. That is partly the result of reading fabricated history right from childhood, and partly of being politically correct. No nation can be built on a foundation of half truths and outright lies about its own history.

    Many non-Hindus have acknowledged the validity of the Hindu holocaust, including Will Durant, Konraad Elst, Francois Gautier, Stephen Knapp, etc

    I think this link might prove usefull to dementia affected people like you

    http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/Religious.html

    Narayan Reply:

    The list of historians you have cited. one more name of “reliable” historian i wud like to add is Prof. P N Oak. Please dont forget him…………otherwise group wud be incomplete (a bunch of fools!!)

    Akash Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    Now, looking at your sources, I am getting to understand your “philosophical” and historical moorings. First of all, a billion is 1000 million. Even if we assume that 100,000 Hindus were massacred every year, you can do the math (use calculator) and you can get an idea how much time that would take. You have quoted KS Lal but have not extended his hypothesis as to cause of this decline in population of Hindus. Was it solely due to carnage of Muslim armies? That would have required a technology that was not available until modern times. Just to give you an idea, Nazi Germany, one of the most advanced military and exterminating machines known to mankind took 8 years to murder 6 million Jews. Are you telling me that bows and arrows were enough to kill 80 million people in that time. That also assumes that Muslim armies were killing Hindus full time. I guess, we can allow for lunch breaks.
    Please desist from quoting Gautier. He is a known clown.
    I looked at the link you provided. Apparently, the peaceful Buddhist were also engaged in decimation of Hindus. I would advise you to read some authentic and impartial historical sources and not these half-baked theorists. As regards Taimur, he is reputed to have killed almost 16 million people in his lifetime, mostly Muslims. As for Bahmani Sultans, where did you get your figure from?
    With your reference to Bangladesh, even if we take the figure of 3 million killed, at most, that still leaves 1 million Muslims killed too.
    So, before you go around peddling your nonsense, try and save yourself some embarrassment by researching a bit more.
    In ancient times, Hindu was a very generic term referring to anyone who lived beyond Indus.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Akash

    It is clear to me from your childish reply what your intellectual level is.

    First of all I know how many constitute a billion. I mentioned approximately one billion people in all comprising of Zorostrians, Egyptian pagans, spainish-syrian christians and budhists of central asia.

    I had just qouted a few figures. 80 million hindus during medieval era alone and few in recent era to name a few and didn’t include millions killed during partition.

    What about the Zorostrians, Egyptians pagans, Chritians, Jews etc in the region from Syria extending through northern Africa to Spain. Buddhists in Afghanistan to central Asia and Turkey.

    I think you need to have more knowledge before imparting me, what is hindu and what not.

    To me everyone who was killed by muslim moron in the region from Afghanistan to Bengal and down south upto kanyakumari was a hindu whether he was Buddhist or Jain or Sikh.

    Why is the the Persian meaning of hindu kush ? Please tell me knowledgeable person (as you claim yourself to be).

    “Are you telling me that bows and arrows were enough to kill 80 million people in that time ”

    Reply: Refresh your history Babur came with artillary. It was introduced since then in India.

    Counter my point with logic before labelling them as nonsense.

    Regards.

    Bobby Reply:

    Anyone who quotes Francis Gautier on Indian history, should be in an asylum. The only thing Francis Gautier can be an authority of, is on how to “b u l l s h i t” to laymen in an authoritative manner.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Babur

    What do you say about……. Will Durrant: “History of Civilizations”

    Will Durant, the famous historian summed it up like this:

    “The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”

    On the fall of India to the Mughals:

    “The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry.” (p.463)

    What about this : the paper by Dr. Scot Levi, Assistant Professor of history, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY

    “Hindus Beyond the Hindu Kush: Indians in the Central Asian Slave Trade.” Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. Vol. 12, no. 3. (2002): 277-288

    Ibn Batuta on the term Hindu Kush

    “ Another reason for our halt was fear of the snow. For upon this road there is a mountain called Hindukush, which means ‘the slayer of the Indians’ because the slave boys and girls who are brought from the land of India die there in large numbers as a result of the extreme cold and the great quantity of snow ”
    (The Travels of Ibn Battutah ed. Tim Mackintosh-Smith, Picador (2003) p 146. ISBN 0330418793)

    The late Rafiq Zakaria (Fareed Zakaria’s father) once remarked in a moment of uncharacteristic candor that yes, he realized tremendous numbers of Hindus were Killed by Muslims, but even so he could not bring himself to express regret and remorse at this holocaust of immense proportions.

    Mullah Babur how many more sources do you need ? I can enumerate a long list from among your muslim writers (travellers) also.

    Come out of your cocoon and let the world see the true colours of BARBARISM called Islam.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Zia

    Please tell us how this word HINDU KUSH came into origin in Persian language

    or else do you agree with the wikipaedia description ?

    Iranian use it for “Destruction of Hindus”, referring to events in the area when Islam took over the area. It is important to note that the name “Hindu Kush” only comes into use after the Islamic invasions begin. The name Hindu Kush is not recorded before c.1330. As ‘kush’ means ‘killing’ in old Persian, most sources state it means Hindu-Killer because of the killing of many Hindus by Islamic invaders in these areas and vast number of Hindu slaves who perished in passing its snows while being taken by Islamic invaders.

    Akash Reply:

    @Sanjeev,

    I thought the world population was less than a billion before quite recent times. I guess you were talking about killing of extra-terrestrial beings. I wouldn’t be surprised. Looking at your logic and facts, you do have a out-of-solar-system kind of arguments. The origin of the word Hindu Kush is still disputed. Will Durant’s book is not an authoritative word on the subject. I can quote you hundreds of other books that would contradict your thesis. There is no dispute that the initial Islamic conquest was bloody, but invasions rarely are a nice homecoming party kind of affair. Genghis Khan was a fearsome invader, more than anyone else, and he was not a Muslim. For that matter, Sakas, Kushans were also invaders and some of them were quite bloody and ruthless. They were not Muslims either. So, try to think without getting angry and without selective readings.
    The war of 1857 was suppressed with the active help of Sikhs and Gurkhas. Would you call them unpatriotic or murderers? I don’t think that in modern India any other group than Sikhs is looked up more when it comes to patriotism and honor. Try thinking in a more holistic context rather than boxing yourself with preconceived notions and bazaar tales.

    Bobby Reply:

    somehow I am not able to post over here….

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Akash,

    For some reason I am unable to post some thing which I tried posting several times. Anyways in short the point is that Sanjeev is actually a Fraud. The paper of Dr Scott Levi is being wrongfully cited by Sanjeev. What it says is that while there is no doubt that the Islamic invaders did take slaves however it was quite common amongst all rulers at that time.

    Read this part of the abstract:

    …..” it should be emphasized that Muslim rulers did not introduce slavery to the subcontinent. Sources such as the Arthaśāstra, the Manu-smrti and the Mahābhāratainstitutionalized slavery was well established in India by the beginning of the common era. Earlier sources suggest that it was likely to have been equally widespread by the lifetime of the Buddha (sixth century BC), and perhaps even as far back as the Vedic period. Furthermore, just as slavery was common in India long before the eighth-century Islamic conquests in Sind,

    So what this proves is complete fraud that this nut Sanjeev is. Moreover Even the Will Durant book is quoted selectively.

    If you go to the “Will Durant online website”, and check out the discussion forum, one sees the full fact and that is , that in volume IV of “the story of civilization” series, Durant, “writes quite substantially about Islam and its contributions to civilization.”

    The remarks on Islamic invaders is in that part of “The Story” which “deals with Asia and its contributions to civilization, as well as, obviously, the attacks and persecutions it received from not only Islam, but Christianity and also rival Asian faiths and creeds.”

    So much for these nuts and frauds.
    …..John Little WILL DURANT ON-LINE

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Akash

    “I thought the world population was less than a billion before …………………..out-of-solar-system kind of arguments.

    Reply :

    This again show your ignorance. The world had achieved more than one billion population after Industrial Revolution (1776-1826 ).

    I never said they killed one billion out of total population of one billion, in a day or any point of time. The point I made was: since the greatest pedophile- rapist -murderer Mohammad gave this political ideology, this ideology has been cause of death of around one billion people purely in the name of relgion or subjugating others in the hope of bringing whole earth under divine rule of their HERMAPHRODITE GOD (Allah ).

    It includes time from 630 A.D. Meccan capitulation to these muslim morons( led by Mohammad ) to attack on Mumbai by KASAB and CO. and day to day bloodshed in J & K, Chechanya, Kosovo, Darfur ( 400,000 dead and 2.5 million displaced), Southern Thailand and Phillipines etc.

    Let me give some figures of world population for ignorants like you

    1 A.D…………….200 million
    1000 A.D. …….310 million
    1750 A.D. …….791million
    1800 A.D. …….978 million
    1850 A.D……..1262 million
    1900 A.D………1650 million
    1950 A.D. ……..2519 million

    “The origin of the word Hindu Kush is still disputed ”

    Reply: I didn’t ask you origin. I asked what is meaning of “hindu-kush” in persian. If you have any wisdom ask any one who knows Persian. Forget about its origin. Even if its origin is disputed how it came to be called “Hindu slaughter ” in Persian.

    Is Ibn Batuta is also biased ?

    “Will Durant’s book is not an authoritative word on the subject. I can quote you hundreds of other books that would contradict your thesis ”

    Who is authoritative then ? only the psedo leftists like Bipin Chandra, Romilla Thapar, Mridulla Mukherjee, Irfan Habib only authentic. These leftist historians of JNU school of thought are biggest minority appeasers. Prof. K. S. Lal will be labelled by people like you as rabid Hindu.

    “There is no dispute that the initial Islamic conquest was bloody, but invasions rarely are a nice homecoming party kind of affair. Genghis Khan was a fearsome invader, more than anyone else, and he was not a Muslim. ”

    Chengiz khan and company got its due share in history and if there are any followers of him then they are not asking for naming delhi streets after him.

    Similarly other invaders were relegated to dust after they were dead i.e. Alexander, Taimur, British. Similar treatment should be for so called greats like AKBAR- The great etc. For that matter I never gave any hypothesis that only muslims were the invaders but muslims were the most frequently invading plus they were most bruttal in matter of looting, raping, and killing people for sake of religion (actually dreaming of going to jannat and enjoy 72 virgins ).

    “Sakas, Kushans were also invaders and some of them were quite bloody and ruthless”

    Who among them killed people in the name of religion ? Muslim marauders killed millions of people in India in the name of kaffirs. I think you have wisdom to see the difference. The same community (muslims) are now crying hoax for not getting house in hindu landlords houses ?

    “The war of 1857 was suppressed with the active help of Sikhs and Gurkhas. Would you call them unpatriotic or murderers? ”

    Reply:

    The sikhs and gurkhas were serving the army. And all those who were participating were bound by duty and nothing more.

    “I don’t think that in modern India any other group than Sikhs is looked up more when it comes to patriotism and honor ”

    Reply:
    What are your criteria to measure honour and patritism ? The same community men killed Prime Minister of country whom they were assigned to guard. Whats your say ?

    I had only heard that AJGRS ( Ahir, Jat, Gurjars, Rajput, and Sikhs ) were considered martial community by British and they used to derive maximum soldiers from them.

    Btw the most examplery act of bravery in post independence India has been demonstrated by a Rajput…Maj. Shaitan Singh Bhatti in 1962 Indo-China war leading a company of 120 soldiers (all Ahirs from Rewari District of Haryana ). All 120 choose to fight till the last breath. His act is unparalleld in Indian History. Do some googling about this event Roshul sector of LADAKH.

    So what is your criteria ?

    Your need to think a bit more before being a muslim apologetic. I was also a liberal-leftist till few months back. But people like Zia have made me the way I am today.

    Read quran first. know what is true face of islam. I recommend you to read most authentic versions of quran (pickthal’s and Yusuf Ali’s etc ).

    It seems to me that you have pre conceived notions more than me. You suffer from the syndrome that all religions basically teach peace and love for all humanity. Here you are at fault. ISLAM is not a religion, it is a cult. Its a political movement whose aim is to bring whole earth under rule of ALLAH and divine laws (sharia ).

    Its not your fault people of India have developed “stockholm syndrome” after experiencing a history of slavery of 1000 years.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Dr Rafeeq Zakaria’s “Indian Muslims – Where Have They Gone Wrong” is an excellent book that throws light on the various issues we face now (so called”Delhi” items Zia talks about).

    It is a good book even for people who believe that all the causes are on the majority community side..

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Islam and civilization doesn’t go together. Better if you mention ISLAMIC BARBARISM

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Sam

    HT cannot write anything criticising Congress party becoz :

    Hindustan Times is part of the KK Birla group and managed by Shobhana Bhartia, granddaughter of GD Birla.

    Shobhana has been nominated as a Rajya Sabha MP from Congress Party.

    G D Birla was an associate of Jawaharlal Nehru (infact a very close one). Nehru did favour to him by making “ambassador” car as official vehicles for government post holders. Ambassador cars are product of Hindustan Motors.

    Infact KK Birla himself was Rajya Sabha member for 18 years (1984-2002).

    So HT is nothing but a mouthpiece of CONGRESS PARTY.

    So don’t expect anything against congress and minority (read muslims only).

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby

    You need to read the abstract carefully.

    ” Historical analyses of slavery in India generally emphasize the escalation of this social institution during the era of Muslim domination in north India. The present study is not an exception to this rule. However, while historical records make it clear that the Delhi Sultans and Mughal emperors retained slavery in order to suit their political and economic needs, it should be emphasized that Muslim rulers did not introduce slavery to the subcontinent. Sources such as the Arthaśāstra, the Manu-smrti and the Mahābhārata demonstrate that institutionalized slavery was well established in India by the beginning of the common era. Earlier sources suggest that it was likely to have been equally widespread by the lifetime of the Buddha (sixth century BC), and perhaps even as far back as the Vedic period. Furthermore, just as slavery was common in India long before the eighth-century Islamic conquests in Sind, recent work demonstrates that the institution continued, in various manifestations, well after the decentralization of the Mughal Empire in the early eighteenth century.
    Still, it is argued here that the expansion of slavery in Muslim India is an important component of the medieval and early modern history of the region and, at least in terms of its role in the commercial and cultural relations of India and Central Asia, it is a subject that would benefit from further historical analysis. ”

    I never made any case for the point that slavery was non existent in Indian society. It existed in every society during ancient time to some extent. But the heights achieved by Muslims in slave trade were comparable to African slave trade.

    Hope you understand the word “scale”.

    It clearly states that it expanded during MUSLIM era (read first line of second paragraph ). I hope that makes my point.

    And my point was to emphasize that muslim morons used to have slave trade of Indians in central Asia and markets of middle east. It still holds.

    Its not wise to say what happened (some social evil) during vedic period (1000 BC) should continue to increase as human civilization evolves. This makes your case of so-called contribution of ISLAMIC Civilization invalid. They need to be called Barbarians only.

    Slavery directly or indirectly exists even today in Indian and many other societies (bonded labour is such ) does that entitle you to compare slavery in India to slave trade of African Negroes ? I consider bonded labour much humane in comparison to slave traded to far off places.
    Always scale and extent of it varies. These two were worst during muslims.

    Further it makes me laugh that how quick you were to label me as fraudulent. My point was to substantiate the point made by IBN BATUTA regarding slave trade of indians by muslim morons.

    That shows the intellectual level of a mullah. You have habit of going hay wire. Stick to the point.

    Come clean that muslims didn’t promote slave trade in India.

    You need to read linguistic analysis by philosophers lie Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, Strawson, Quine.

    Hope some rules of what to say and what is meaningfull penetrate into your head. But I am doubtfull the veiws of these enlightened scholars is within your reach of your mental level.

    Shift to some barbarian empires like Saudia where you can be called unchallenegd INTELLECTUAL.

    Bobby Reply:

    nutty sanjeev,

    The abstract of the paper is exactly what all sane people will say…that slavery and torture was not restricted to Islamic invaders. By choosing to selectively quote out of it, you show that you are a Fraud.

    webmail1 Reply:

    In some of the Iranian languages that are still spoken in the region, many peaks, mountains and related places have the ending -kush in their names. In the Persian language of the Sassanian period (known as Middle Persian), Hindu referred to the inhabitants of the area around and beyond the Indus River, or Hind – the area they inhabited.

    Narayan Reply:

    Sanjeev,

    “The Hindu religion is naturally pluralistic.”

    You make really funny statements, What about the same hindu religion that suppressed and persecuted millions of humans for CENTURIES in the name of the cast!!!!!!!!!!!!
    will you put the books which was used for centuries to justify this treatment with quran or below quran!! if quran is filled with hate then hindu religious texts are filled with Poison. lets face it is the truth………

    and Sanghis like you are the reason why these oppressed guys are poached by christian missionaries in large numbers, the problem with u guys is that u don’t accept that there exist a big schism in Hinduism and u dont try to fill it. and look in southern states all the dalits are poached by missionaries and in orissa also though in north keep check on these mass illegal conversions!!. In andhra they increased from 2% to 6% in 5 years. I guess before attacking others make your home secure and spend some energy in stopping conversion. I believe that the biggest things that Hinduism facing is illegal conversion. I guess after some time only people like you will stay in the top and all the masses will be converted to christianity. Islam is just a overhyped threat reality is chritian conversion!!!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    @ Sanjeev,
    “The same community men killed Prime Minister of country whom they were assigned to guard.”

    I don’t have anything to say to you. You are quite catholic in your bigotry. So, now, presumably, the massacre of 3000 Sikhs in Delhi is justified because two of that community killed Indira Gandhi! What a sick mind. You just hate anyone/everyone. You could do well to remember that there was also someone called Abdul Hamid, Param Vir Chakra.

    “Your need to think a bit more before being a muslim apologetic. I was also a liberal-leftist till few months back. ”

    I guess, I will wait for a few more months when, like a pendulum, you would swing to the other extreme.

    “The sikhs and gurkhas were serving the army. And all those who were participating were bound by duty and nothing more.”

    I am perplexed as to why you don’t extend the same theory to the marauding Muslim armies.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    @Bobby,
    Thanks for quoting that author’s paper in full. Btw, I don’t agree with his assertion that slavery was widespread in India in ancient times. An excellent and authoritative book on the subject of ancient India is the well-known book titled,”The Wonder that was India” by AL Basham.

  • http://ht--------- sanjeev

    This is an example of the true face of ISLAM

    Babur’s Own Words on Killing Hindus:

    For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
    I battled infidels and Hindus,
    I determined to become a maryr
    Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    I thought his biggest battle was against Ibrahim Lodhi.

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    As deplorable and illegal as theses acts of hoodlums are. Please try to understand people’s fear. Religious nuts appropriate public property for their public square dispaly of religiosity in very systematic manner. And it always is at small scale first. You know in the beginning just an Eid namaz before you know it the traffic stands still and none dare question it lest minority sentiment gets trampled.

    IN Mumbai it used to be huge pain in the neck where whole traffic used to paralyse during friday prayers. Shiv Sena raised this issue and they were told by powers to be that the practice although illegal can’t be stopped due to the proverbial minority sentiment issue. In ythose days Shiv sena had less hoodlum elments amongst them and so they came up with a novel solution. They too started this trafic jam routine through public squar aarti. Pretty soon muslims netizens too found how it feels when they are at the wrong end of the stick of someone’s public square religiosity.

    Anyway as much as I condemn those idiots who attacked those people I also condemn these public-square-religious-ostentatious types.Pray in the confines of your home or go to some mosque. Delhi is dotted with mosques so the alibi that mosque was nowhere to be found is bogus at best

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    Too many people here are trying to sell communism as antidote of comunal riot. If communism hoodlumism is what is being sold as utopian model then I am sorry I will much rather have once a decade of communal rife than daily communist blood-shed.
    I even reject the theory of somehow hindus are the one who are organized communal rioter. Fact is almost all riots have its genesis in some muslim’s bloated ego getting better of his intellect.

    As early as last month in Sangli/miraz Mahrashtra muslim mob destroyed ganesha idol just because it didn;t erupt into communal frenzy we didn;t hear much about it. But this was classic case. And the fault of hindus was that Shivaji was shown killing Afzal khan a fact of history. I wonder why muslims of india feel affinity with charcetrs like afzal khan in first place

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Communism is dead and gone, even in China. However, our leftists, still believe in its all curing abilities!

    Fortunately, Indians cannot be fooled by these communists anymore, even in their strongholds. Last Lok Sabha elections in Kerala and West Bengal clearly proved people want development and not the class struggle. They will lose state elections also soon.

    Their own polit bureau chief , after reviewing the election debacle, said the leaders have used ministerships and party poistions to enrich themselves beyond the comprehension of an ordinary Indian.

    [Reply]

  • Raju kurien

    The fact

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    It will be interesting to see how widespread is the housing issue.

    Perhaps Zia should compare notes with his fellow columnist Varghese George to see if Varghese ever had a problem in getting an apartment.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Yes, it will be interesting indeed to compare Varghese’ experience in finding an apartment.

    I lived in Delhi years ago; I never experienced any problem finding a place or keeping the place.
    I lived in Vasanth vihar and Panch Sheel; both were excellent places with good neighbors and extending community.

    [Reply]

    Surjeet Reply:

    Zai’s views are excellent as an individual. Islam is a religion that believes family,society,village,city and country must all be run according to Islamic ways. That is why we talk of Islamic Laws, Islamic Education,Eslamic Art,Islamic Artitecture,Islamic Painting so on and so forth. I am not trying to be critical but just trying to state the basic tenats of Islam. All these are unique chapters and part and parcel of the religion.
    It is said that Quran is comnplete and there is nothing beyond. It is a school of thought and unique in itself. It is the latest religion and is the last word

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    On one side is Somnath temple, razed (not once) but seven times by (not one) but many Muslim rulers!

    On another side is a group of people who still has not got over the shock of the empires changing and slipping!

    On one side is the ancestral stories of conversion and destruction!

    On the other side is the permamnent accusation of dismemberment of the mother!

    On one side is the quest for knowledge, accomplishments, achievements, stabilization.

    On the other sides bewilderment, disallusionment, sense of loss, ignorance…

    We need transformational leaders such as MAulana Azad and Mahathma Gandhi. Otherise there will not be any mosaic.

    Education is a bi—-. A poorHindu or poor Muslim, in the absenec of education will blissfully be ignorant of history.

    But, as George Santayana said “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

    So, nthing wrong if one group wants to prevent an 8th raze of Somnath.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Islamic sex laws, islamic divorce, islamic encouragement for sex maniacs (to have multiple wives after killing their husbands)….

    yaa..

    why should intolerance philosophy (like islam) be tolerated ?

    they already got 57 OIC countries, where they oppress everyone other than muslim male.

    This is like a outgrown weed trying to take over the whole jungle…

    [Reply]

  • http://ht--------- sanjeev

    @ L mirza

    good one.

    [Reply]

  • Vishesh

    Nice and informative article sir.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Vishesh

    Will you explain what is informative in this article. This is mere distortion of facts.

    [Reply]

    Narayan Reply:

    Sanjeev,

    “The Hindu religion is naturally pluralistic.”

    You make really funny statements, What about the same hindu religion that suppressed and persecuted millions of humans for CENTURIES in the name of the cast!!!!!!!!!!!!
    will you put the books which was used for centuries to justify this treatment with quran or below quran!! if quran is filled with hate then hindu religious texts are filled with Poison. lets face it is the truth………

    and Sanghis like you are the reason why these oppressed guys are poached by christian missionaries in large numbers, the problem with u guys is that u don’t accept that there exist a big schism in Hinduism and u dont try to fill it. and look in southern states all the dalits are poached by missionaries and in orissa also though in north keep check on these mass illegal conversions!!. In andhra they increased from 2% to 6% in 5 years. I guess before attacking others make your home secure and spend some energy in stopping conversion. I believe that the biggest things that Hinduism facing is illegal conversion. I guess after some time only people like you will stay in the top and all the masses will be converted to christianity. Islam is just a overhyped threat reality is chritian conversion!!!

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    Zia, did you/Hindustan Times cover this Fahim prayer item? If so, can you please tell me which day’s paper covered this?.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    One reason these riots keep occurring is that the people who orchestrate it believe they wont be punished, which is also true. The best way therefore, to stop riots, is to actually punish the culprits and give justice to the affected people. This would act as a deterrent.

    A good start would be implementing the Srikrishna commission report and put that a s s h o l e Bal Thackarey into jail, and bringing to justice the perpetrators of the 1984 and 2002 riot victims.

    I have to say the one positive development of the last few years, is the rise of civil resistance in the form of Teesta Setalvad in Gujarat (one of the few people of our times who make me feel proud of being an Indian). I am sure she will succeed in giving justice to the riot victims of Gujarat.

    When she does, this would be a landmark achievement in our country. I think that would go a long way in acting as a deterrent for many future Bal Thackerey’s and Modi’s.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    problem is that one fo the a$$hole named Rajeev gandhi is Bharat ratna.. hwo will you bring that holy cow in the purview of law for 1984 massacre

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Well for a start all those who have been named in the inquiry commissions that have probed these incidents should be punished. Rajiv Gandhi has not been named in any commission report, and in any case he is dead. Of course these commissions should really be called “omissions”, since they omitted most of the names of the political bosses and named only police officers who of course were not punished, which is a shame.

    In the Mumbai riots, there is extensive documenting of the involvement of the shiv sena and police in starting, inciting and helping the rioters. At least these should be implemented.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    ALL involved should be punished. Many a time, a lowly Constable or Sub inspector is punished, while elected represenattives and high end bureaucrats go on their merry ways.

    I believe there is some provision in our current judicial system that a minister/legislative member cannot be arrested for civil cases until his term is over. High time to change that!

    Sam Reply:

    There will be another High profile attack on India by Islamic **** terrorists very soon.

    After the initial euphoria of

    “these are not true muslims”
    “islam condemns violence”
    “this is not true islam”
    “islam is misunderstood”

    all the bullshit,

    people like Zia will be back again about how

    “hindus have nothing to fear about Islam”
    “how hindus are discriminating muslims”
    “how this discrimination is causing the violent backlash from muslims”

    This is just like our movies, most of them are similar themes repeated again and again.

    Zia and his friends will use the same dialogues and screen play again and again..

    instead

    he should tell how hindus should protect themselves from violence
    report about the violent under currents in islamic world
    how things are happening in pakistan and fight against blashpemy.
    fight agaisnt religious apartheid in mecca/medinah
    (this is important, as all mosques are pointed in that direction, an apartheid place only for muslims)…

    rediff Reply:

    Well I think congress payed too much back to sikhs, and they shud be grateful to this. look primeminister for two terms is a sikh and three ministers in his government are sikh. Most of them got compensation, carrreers of senior politicians like tytler and bhgat doomed. what else do you want. can u see the carreer of modi doomed or denied ticket. Theday BJP makes muslim guy as prime minister I wud say they apologised for Gujrat and babri!!! like manmohan is to congress some muslim PM is to BJP

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Rediff,

    I dont agree they “paid too much back”. What is needed is simply take action against the perpetrators of the crime, which is unfortunately not the case. Its not enough that “Tytler’s career is doomed”. The culprits should be jailed.

    Murder is murder whether its by Tytler or by “Nero” endra Modi.

    Sam Reply:

    I am sure, those riots would have stopped (or reduced greatly) if most muslims muslims migrated to their homeland Pakistan.

    If their ratio came down, the violence instigated by them would also come down.

    It is a shame, that they procreate and breed more than any other religion and then become a burden on planet earth (due to overpopulation).

    Muslims as a regilious group are one of the reasons for the overpopulation problem.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    The shameful part is that idiots like you are still around.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    It is a fact and please contest the facts…
    it could be a harsh truth, but you are welcome to show why my statements are not correct.

    Historically Muslims have a tendancy to use violence to their benefit.

    If you have the guts, please do a self introspection of this fact and tell me the reasons why it is true.

    Show me statistics..

    Look at east pakistan..
    3 million people are killed, and it could have been resolved peacefully in the first place.

    Indira Gandhi should have conducted trials like Nuremberg Nazi trials and shown to the whole world the dirty mind of west pakistani muslim mind and thinking.

    Bobby Reply:

    well what I said was also a harsh fact.

    Sam Reply:

    even if i am idiot (as per you), can you respond to some issues like..

    1. why are muslims tend to use violence, when they have advantage to do so..
    –is it because of koran
    — is it because of mohd’s behavior
    — is the mollah instigating it ..

    2. Indira Gandhi should have conducted Nuremberg like trials.
    That would have exposed the sick muslim mind in killing millions of people.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    oh the same bull shit again! I have a couple of questions to you:

    (1) were you a born idiot or became one after an accident?

    (2) Who do you think is a bigger idiot? You or Rajeev or Sanjeev?

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Babur

    All are less idiots than muslims like you and biggest pedophile, Murderer, and rapist mohammad.

    K Reply:

    Well , how about first punishing those who have been found guilty in a court of law ……Afzal anyone ?

    Ofcourse, lets makes inquiry commissions legally binding before implementing the recommendations

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    an interesting article

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239300

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    This is just a drop in the ocean. and studying sanskrit in the land whose language it used to be doesn’t contribute to any greatness.

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    How much Sanskrit do you know?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Akash

    I know sanskrit very well. Besides i have read extensively Indian and western philosophy. along with that religious philosophy also. although i haven’t read much about ritualism.

    The statements above shows only ignorance of people like you.

    Akash Reply:

    Sanjeev ‘vidyasagar’,
    Then, allow me, yours truly ignorant, to quote Sant Kabir’s famous poem for you:
    “Pothi padhi padhi jag mua…
    Pandit bhaya na koye,
    dhayi akhar prem ke, padhe jo padit howe”

    :)

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Snippets of news from USA today.

    Two Indian boys – Manish Agarwal (Berkley) and Mahadevan ( Harvard) – won the prestigious MacArthur awards for this year. They were two of the twenty four selected this year. MacArthur awards are annually given to ‘geniuses” selected using a variety of factors; most important being postive impact on humanity.

    Three Muslims were arrested for terrorist plot , potentially aimed at world leaders attending the UN summit. Najibullah Zazii (24), his father Muhamed Zasi, and their Imam Ahamed Afzali (who apparently has four luxury cars such as Jauguar). These Muslims, originally from Pakistan, have been living in US for many many years.

    These two news items were reported today.

    Zia and his elks should strive to develop MacArthur fellows, instead of complaining about lthe lack of Muslim prayer facilities in Delhi. There is no dearth of prayer; now somebody has to deliver them; and it will not be Allah.

    .- h

    S Singh Reply:

    What is different? One group is committed to get their education from TTI P(Terror Technology Institute of Pakistan!

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Akash

    Just bury your head under sand just like an ostrich and remain happy that you are safe.

    The next time when these muslim morons will have blasts in your neighbourhood then defend yourself with “dhai akhar prem ke”

    Just like 2 lakh Kashmiri Pandits are defending themselves in the refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi.

    Good work man, its not your fault, people like you have become accustomed to slavery

    time Reply:

    what about 1 lakhs kashmiri muslims killed by occupying India forces!!! and another thousands torchered and injured by indian forces!!!!

    S Singh Reply:

    Time..

    Are you a Pakistani?

    While unfortunate, ttje military, like any militry has pursued torture. It is bad.

    However, Kashmir will remain India’s.

    time Reply:

    @ S Singh

    No I am not pakistani but I am Kashmiri from indian side and i have another perspective!!!!you can instill fear in kashmiris by having millions of troops but u cant takeaway our dreams….and we dont want to suffer anymore egofight between Indian and pakistan…..we want independence from both these BUHKHA NANGA countries!!!

    Narayan Reply:

    Sanjeev,

    “The Hindu religion is naturally pluralistic.”

    You make really funny statements, What about the same hindu religion that suppressed and persecuted millions of humans for CENTURIES in the name of the cast!!!!!!!!!!!!
    will you put the books which was used for centuries to justify this treatment with quran or below quran!! if quran is filled with hate then hindu religious texts are filled with Poison. lets face it is the truth………

    and Sanghis like you are the reason why these oppressed guys are poached by christian missionaries in large numbers, the problem with u guys is that u don’t accept that there exist a big schism in Hinduism and u dont try to fill it. and look in southern states all the dalits are poached by missionaries and in orissa also though in north keep check on these mass illegal conversions!!. In andhra they increased from 2% to 6% in 5 years. I guess before attacking others make your home secure and spend some energy in stopping conversion. I believe that the biggest things that Hinduism facing is illegal conversion. I guess after some time only people like you will stay in the top and all the masses will be converted to christianity. Islam is just a overhyped threat reality is christian conversion!!!

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Narayan

    I am talking about religious persecution. Yes there is caste discrimination in India. But various efforts have been made and are being made to address this issue since last 50 years.

    Atleast in urban areas the discrimination has been done away with.

    I admit there are weaknesses in hinduism. but atleast Hindus don,t create terrorism in different parts of the world.

    Btw religious pluralism and caste discrimination doesn’t have any contradiction. Caste discrimination is internal problem of Hinduism which people like you and me need to take head on.

    Thanx for showing your concern.

    I am neither a sanghi no congresswala. I the region I come from doesn’t experience the problem you are highlighting, hence I have not mentioned it.

    Btw Zia is trying to portray innocence of muslims thats why I am highlighting their own attitude and faulty teachings.

    Thanx for pointing me out.

    Regards

    Sanjeev

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    These types of integrational activities are good. However, should it be teaching a “dead” language Vs something else – such as Indus Civilization, Ancient literature, Epics etc

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Thats funny, coming from people who demand that all “Indians” must value “unpanishads”, keep “Indian names” and so on. Goalposts seem to be shifting.

    In any case its not about the usefulness or Sanskrit, but rather another example of blurring of religious identities in India…countering every nonsensical statement that you have made on this blog.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Bobby – no; goalpost is not shifting..

    I am a “cause/effect” technoloigy guy; just do not get how learning Sanskrit will blurr the problems/identitities. No Hindus or other Indians (may be 1 %) learn Sanskrit.. The issue being people to people; how is learning Sanskrit going to help .

    However, I do admire those teachers for venturing out.

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    It has as much chance of “blurring identities”, if not more, than “respecting Upanishads” and having “Indian names”.

    Sam Reply:

    Language has many aspects

    Some major aspects are

    1. grammar
    2. words
    3. script

    Urdu’s grammar is Sanskrit based.

    Words–more than 90% are local to Hindi/Sanskrit. the rest is arab/persian.

    script is arabic.

    so other than script, Urdu is basically a Hindu language.
    (there are so many other indian languages which satisfy item 1 and 2 and with different script).

    It is just one of those things islam wants to hijack from non-islamic people.

    So learning sanskrit, while commendable, is not a quantum leap from linguistic perspective
    (it could be a leap in muslims mind for many other reasons)..

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    “just do not get how learning Sanskrit will blurr the problems/identitities”

    It stands as much chance, if not better, of doing just that that having “Indian names” and “respecting Upanishads”…wouldn’t you agree?

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    To everybody according to their own…

    I believe names will help Muslims more (along with many other factors). A Vimal Joseph or Vimala Mathai has significantly better employment and acceptance possibilities than a Khisf-al-Ziffrrula (even if Khisf-al-Ziffrrula learns Sanskrit).

    A Tara John will have a better electoral possibility than a Khisf-al–Ziffrurula. For that matter, an Amir Khan will do significantly better than a Khisf-al-Ziffrrulla in elections..

    I am not endorsing the rightness or wrongness of this; but a mere conclusion based on human perceptions.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Actually if muslims don’t have arabic names then they will be declared kafir by their masters in the deserts of Arabia.

    They are puppets with their strings in the hands pedophile masters sitting in KSA.

  • Raju Kurien

    @Zia

    Was there really an attack on Mr Fahim? Which newspaper covered this? A rabid Muslim web site based in US covered a news like this. I hope we do not take that as a gold standard of news!
    Has Hindustan Times covered this?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Raju

    Soon Zia will write an editorial in HT on Mr. Fahim

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    Here is something for you:
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/By-2020-India-will-have-10m-dementia-patients/articleshow/5039295.cms

    Looks like you are well on your way..
    :)

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Akash

    Its for people like you. I have sharp memory.

  • http://www.yahoo.com Sameer

    @Zia…..

    Why I never see u write against Koran or mulims practices…why i only see u portraying muslims as a victims all the time…why I never see u write about hindus facing discrimination in middle east…why I never see u write about Islamic discrimination against other relegions….why u always portrays yourself as a liberal muslim, why do u need to do that, either islam is only about hardcore rabid values or u r apologetic about its shortcomings or u would say Islam has no shortcomings….
    why do other communities only give space to accomodate muslims…why shouldn;t muslims leave some room for negotiations….why i see u never accept the fact that mohmmad indulged in certain practices which is abhorred in current times…why i see u never question koran…why i never see u exhorting your community for reform…why only other communities should reform…….

    Islam as i see now is nothing but in self destruct mode…..why not write about that….

    What u suggest is cosmetic changes till the time islam gains adequate strength to decimate other relegions… ….so, all those who read this beware of what zia says…if u accept it blindly of what he says then u r nothing but naive fools…read history……

    And why of all the relegions it is Islam which is facing this crisis..or u say it is facing no crisis…….Why muslims only are suspected of terrorism…not people from other relegion…why all the trouble in this world is mostly restricted to area populated by the follower of muhammad….so, many things……

    Instead u r always blabbering about muslim being victims…and secularism of india and why it is against secularism and indian ethos to do or say against muslims or Islam……

    Dear freind…secularism, democracy and liberalism has certain price….if u think muslims or islam can enjoy these thing without paying their part of the price…then freind you are mistaken………..
    either you pay that price by simply reformning koran/ yourself or simply do not expect the fruits of democracy and secularism…….

    Or do as u have always done…….fight it against infidels like…us…which I am sure this time will result in total destruction of Islam……may be you can win….. then offcourse we are all doomed.

    So, Zia….come to the basic point..why Islam has certain practices which can not be changed..why koran is so sacrosanct that it can not be changed….

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Sameer

    I don’t think ISLAM has problems, But ISLAM itself is the problem. As long as this tribal cult is there you can’t expect peace.

    You can’t enumerate even a single country where they are in a significant proportion and living peacefully with other communities.

    The list starts from:
    Phillipine, Thailand, Indonesia, East Timore, Malaysia, Indian subcontinent, Xinjiang,entire middle east, Darfur, somalia, nigeria, spain, france, chechanya.

    How can you expect them to live peacefully in India ?

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Islam, which has changed since 1200s, and which suppressed all questioning around the same time, is the main obstacle in Muslims’ progress. Personal life, professional life, and religious life all are merged into one. Freedom opf thought is suppressed. Music, arts etc are suppressed in the strictest interpretation.

    A lifeless group just living for religion…

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    I meant the Islam which has not changed from 1200s

    Sam Reply:

    It is simple.

    India will continue to be a secular country, only if Muslims want it..

    If they want super rights, secularism will be dead.
    If muslims can control their lust for multiple woman then there is a chance for secularism surviving.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Sameer,
    You are wrong to ask certain things from Zia.

    Your question “why I never see u write about hindus facing discrimination in middle east…why I never see u write about Islamic discrimination against other relegions…”

    Please read the introduction or Zia’s description on the blog.
    “The ‘need to know’ soon grew into a ‘need to tell’ — that Islam needs to be understood not feared. Haq, assistant editor with the Hindustan Times, reports on minority affairs but likes to believe he’s destined for bigger things, like taking the phobia out of Islamophobia.”

    Zia stated clearly what his objective, charter and goal is.
    It is to explain islam more and more islam.

    He is following clearly what he is saying.

    He is not deviating from his stated agenda.

    Why do you want him to write about discrimination Hindus face in Gulf, Pakistaan…

    If you want that, please ask HT to get another columnist.
    We need some other columnist to do this.

    Zia will never do it (unless something changes).
    So it is easier if the HT management agrees to it, than Zia doing ever.

    So stop dreaming and let us see how we can approach HT management for this to happen.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @ Sam @ Sameer

    However, based on the comments in this blog, it does not look like he is taking “phobia” out of Islamoophibia; it seems he is creating more phobia!

    So, he may not be meeting his objective!

    [Reply]

    Sameer Reply:

    Is “need to tell” is restricted only to what zia thinks…explaining is a two way process of questions and answers, if answers are not satisfactory shouldn;t we seek more from him….since it is agreed that there is islamophobia…why not clear it by questions and answers….why zia remain silent on controversial issues..is truth has one version only …what zia says…off course not.

    Arguements and counter arguements are the part and parcel of indian traditions ..should we drop that just because ..zia is muslims, for that matter all the muslims…

    If he can not answer , then whatr is the point of telling…if he is not answering then either he is aware of his subject (islam) or may there is nothing in his subject which answers our queries….better stop this blog..or if he continues ..well ..in that case better prepare for nasty questions…

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ sameer

    I came to this conclusion much before. The muslim intellectuals like Zia need to be tackled with third degree methods only.

    Bobby Reply:

    Obviously the statement that women find “muslims” dashing and handsome is nonsensical. Beauty of course is a subjective thing, but more to the issue when one makes such a statement as the above one usually is talking of “ethnic Pathans” who are then being identified subconciously as the representative of all “muslims”.

    People of the same ethnicity (not religion) share common physical features.

    “…..the vile Bramhins (incl Banias? Or all high caste hindus) who, as Secular theologians have proved conclusively, have usurped all the power, money and fame that was to be had in india?…”

    The statement I made was not that they “usurped all the power and money”, but rather that they have for centuries been in control of all “the power and money”. It does not mean that people from upper castes are all greedy and immoral, but rather that the social realties, given the history of India is hugely biased in their favor. So much so that very few Dalits can break through in to the “elite group”…and this will remain so unless some effort is made to reverse it.

    By the way one point I would like to make here again is that the more relevant divide in India is between the upper castes and lower castes in India. This divide is much more relevant than the communal divide.

    Most muslims in India are lower caste converts, and their doing badly in all economic indices is really something they inherited from the social and economic biases the general lower castes in India face. Although lower caste muslims probably are further impoverished among the general lower caste population itself.

    One therefore needs to the understand how big is the ratio of the “gap between upper castes and Lower castes” and the “gap between muslim lower castes and general lower castes”, to get an idea of whether the major problem is religious tension or caste tension. My guess is that this ratio is very large.

    There were some upper caste Hindus who converted to Islam, and most rich muslims you find are either these or old royality or Pathans. This list would include Jinnah, Iqubal, and most bollywood actors as well as Azim Permji and the likes.

    I would request Zia to write a future post, analyzing the Muslim issue in India from this perspective.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Bobby the Truth

    Is my moronic brain failing me again, or you were responding to my comment? I hope not.
    In case you did, then I suggest, you get out of this anxiety (or illusion) that I was commenting about something said by you specifically. How Can I?

    If that, indeed was the impression conveyed by comments, I AM SORRY, I WITHDRAW all that I said.
    In addition, being the Low IQ Moronic Hindu Bigot that I am, I reiterate my absolute and complete submission to your pious platitudes.

    Just to refresh: “You are the Truth and I submit”
    As always, you must have the last word, if that is what you chose.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    I dont see the reason for you to get so worked up. I have not made any comments about you …have I?

    Bobby Reply:

    In any case, when you use the mocking term “secular theologian”, I did assume you were commenting about me, since (a) I did get into this discussion in a earlier post with some people, and (b) any mocking from your side must be reserved for people you hold in disdain..which obviously is me!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Oh I am so sorry.

    Actually, I was also confused about that. That is why I did ask : “Is my moronic brain failing me again, or you WERE responding to my comment? I hope not”.

    Whatever, I wrote after that was, applicable, only in the event of your having responded to my first comment. For the avoidance of doubt I also added something like “In Case You Did”

    To make doubly sure that I did not offend you, even unintentionally, I added, if my first comment somehow gave the impression that I was commenting on you then, I was SORRY and I that I was withdrawing all that I said.

    Now about your statement that “any mocking from your side must be reserved for people you hold in disdain..which obviously is me!” Isn’t that a bit presumptuous on your part? Pretty much the same about your other statement that you couldn’t see the reason for me getting so worked up,

    In addition your assumption that “Secular Theologians” meant you is also a bit extravagant.

    BTW, why does the title Secular Theologian offend you?
    Honestly, by now I am almost proud of being called a Hindu Bigot

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    You are completely mistaken. where exactly did I say i was offended? Not offended at all. I just don’t get why you are getting so worked up. I have not said anything about you in any post, so why this weird reaction? Why this meaning less rant!

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    been keeping away for awhile seeing what an enormous time drain this is.. ;-)
    BTW, I think Bobby has someone else posting/ posing as him.
    What else can explain his response to Sam (Dear Sam… that too!) after professing in an earlier post that he reads “not a word of what Sam writes” and advising Sam not to waste any effort in seeking his attention.
    So, maybe it was not him but his alter ego.. of course, with Bobby, it is difficult to guess.. which is the original and which the make believe..

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Ashish

    I saw your comment about not posting much here. Although I haven’t resolved so, but my postings are also fewer now a days. Partly because recession seems to be receding and its time to make mullah again and widen the inequality a bit more. Although, we fundoos are bent upon defeating the noble ideals of a great and moral society where everyone is equal, we have to work harder, faster and smarter because EQUAL OUTCOME may not be far off.

    Even then, once in while it is not a bad idea to add some more force to Hindu bigotry!!

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @SKS

    Work harder, smarter, faster so that you can pay for 1) special flats 2) Mosques in every place where there are 1000 or more Muslism 3) Ministry of communal harmony and more to come….

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    “making mullah”… see the extent to which this is affecting you :-)

    In my book (spelt with a small ‘b’ ), mullahs can be made, can even be “on the make”…but, making mullah… tchah! What an idea, sir-ji!

    syed Reply:

    Found Zia’s blog to be quite balanced. I myself have faced issues with getting a house on rent in Delhi & earlier, Mumbai but the irony is that my eventual landlords were hindus!

    Most of the posts here are monopolized by just a few individuals & have become quite predictable.

    A country progresses only when all sections of its population move ahead more or less equally. While individuals are expected to make efforts to improve themselves and their standard of living, developed countries also recognise there is a limit to what the individual can do. That is why you have Equal Employment Opportunity and affirmative action plans in such countries.

    sanjeev Reply:

    “Most muslims in India are lower caste converts, and their doing badly in all economic indices is really something they inherited from the social and economic biases the general lower castes in India face. Although lower caste muslims probably are further impoverished among the general lower caste population itself ”

    This conclusion has been arrived at by leftist historians like Romilla Thapar, Bipin Chandra etc school of thought. It is well known that these communist oriented scholars make more of politically correct findings rather than true and objective research.

    There may be some conversions from lower castes in southern Indian states like Tamil Nadu, Andhra where the caste system is very rigid as compared to north Indian states.

    But I can see surnames of most Pakistani’s either similar with Rajputs, Jats etc.So this theory is just a political appeasement of muslims. The truth is that some opportunists among hindus converted to ISLAM just to avail the many privileges bestowed upon by muslims marauders like Mughals etc.

    The converted Rajputs are called “Kayamkhyani” in Rajasthan, those converted from Meena’s are called “Meo “. The Meo’s are concentrated in area between Gurgaon and alwar district of Rajasthan. It seems probable they were converted in stages: first by Salar Masud in the eleventh century, by Balban in the thirteenth century, and then during Aurangzeb’s rule in the seventeenth century. Unfortunately all three were religious fanatics. Hence you can conclude whether the conversion was forcefull or not ? There are more than 10 million meo’s.

    Rest of the muslims in rajasthan are kayamkhani’s, remember rajasthan have around 10 percent muslim population. So where does this conversion of dallits to Muslims have gone.

    One more thing, I once asked a Pakistani girl (who is married to one of my friend ) told me that more 80 percent of the muslims in Punjab part of Pakistan are from Rajput, Jat etc. This group is dominant in pakistan politics and military also.

    Ask any pakistani, what is the truth.

    The kayamkhani’s are also significant in terms of contribution to army, both to Pakistan and India.

    Do some googling about these most dominant and largest groups among muslims in North west India (Punjab, Haryana, RAJ.)

    So we can safely conclude that some opportunistic Hindus(mostly Rajputs ) irrespective of caste converted to ISLAM under force or lure. Brahmanism has nothing to do with conversion in this region. BTW I am not any Brahman-Baniya-Rajput. I am from a community of traditionally pastoralists.

    This dalit thing is not valid atleast in the states I mentioned above otherwise how could Punjab, Himachal, Haryana have one of highest proportion of SC population in India.

    Rest do some googling for the aforesaid castes (Meo’s, Kayamkhani, etc)

  • time

    hey first talk about discrimination of millions of dalits in India!!!
    what do u mean by “why I never see u write about hindus facing discrimination in middle east”….u mean muslims are welcome in middle east!!!! majority of worker in middle east are hindus and chritians!!!!!!!!!11

    [Reply]

    Sameer Reply:

    Off course, there is problem of castism in India…Dalit atrocity is most repugnant aspect of Hinduism..and as a Hindu I accept shortcomings of hinduism and ready to amend that….can a muslim diregard things given in Koran…..can zia publicly denounce things given in Koran….

    Regarding workers in middle east ..I am talking about relegious discrimination…not economic necessities of both middle eastern countries and workers….

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Please let us not have casteism as an achilles heel for Hindu religion.

    In Islam, slavery is permitted. Mohd had purchased slaves.
    Muslim man is permitted to have UNLIMITED number of slave girls (above and beyond 4 wifes).

    So compared to slavery, where your wife/kids can be sold for masters profit, Hindu religion does not have anything close to it in casteism.

    Dalits still had family, community and certain amount of dignity.
    Compare that to slavery.

    So let us not self-flagellate too much.

    On a relative scale of evil, i would rather be a Dalit than be a slave with no right to my wife and kids.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim man is permitted to have sex with the slave girls.
    He can have unlimited number of them.

    There is religious sanction for this in Koran.

    Time Reply:

    @ Sameer
    I am quite sure , u are not dalit otherwise u wud never say u wud rather be a dalit!!

    Muslims may have had slaves that may be in arabia or africa………..I want to focus on India cos muslim bashing is not my favorite job yet……….OK……………I dont care what is going around in the world…when we have biggest example here in our country!!!

    Sam Reply:

    @time,
    i am quite sure, u are a muslim otherwise u wud never say “majority of worker in middle east are hindus and chritians!!!!!!!!!11″

    Hindus may have had caste system…..I want to focus on Arabia/Afrcia cos finding muslim truch is my favorite job….OK …..

    I care what is going in the world right now, with most terrorists being muslim and threat comes from muslims in Arabia, africa, Af-pak, gulf, UK, America, Indonesia….

  • Shoeb K

    Raju:

    U are right! Zia can do a lot from his perch to improve the education of Muslims and motivate them for greater things; instead he is nitpicking little things (true or false; only he knows) and magnifyiing this as a huge problem that will suffocate India…

    For Pete sake he is a big guy in Hindustan Times..He should be doing something creative to assist people….

    Muslims have a huge educational problem; to a great extent we Muslims ourselves are responsible for that. Unless we improve in our education, we will remain second/third class citizens. Couple that with the crazy terrorists. And thenw e complain that we do not get flats…Look in the mirror..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Why blame only Zia.

    His writings are approved (at some level) from HT management.

    It is a shame on them to let Zia nit pick small small things, when there are so many fires created by Islamists.

    I guess only Muslims get the victim status.
    No one else can complain about themselves, especially against muslim originated injustices…

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    One of the constant cries many Muslims (and their leftist supporters) have is that Indian democracy has been unfair to them. So, if democracy is unfair, what other system they would suggest? A carve out with a newly picked king (like the British did in Saudi Arabia after World War I) or a Hindu monarchy…

    Democracy is unfair, majority is unfair, courts are unfair, building societies are unfair………when will this end?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Sharia and Islamic kingdom is fairest to Muslims.

    Any other system, where they have to be equal is unfair.

    They should have a right to levy Jizya on Hindus, so they can just sit and loot other peoples wealth, hardwork.

    That is the best system for them.

    If democracy is unfair, why dont they give up Haj Subsidy.
    Hindu’s do not get any subsidy to go to their temples, even within the country.

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Muslims do have a problem with democracy. Turkey is the only Muslim majority country with democracy. And they did it forcefully by removing religion from government after first world war during Kemal Pasha, “young Turk”, time. Thanks to his action turkey stands out among all Muslim countries.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why don’t we allow muslims in India to live according to Sharia? We should implement both civil and CRIMINAL laws of Sharia on muslims. If we do that we will end up with 150 million handicapped muslims. I’d love to see a muslim without arm, leg or eye leading the protest against Right wing hindus, right wing govt., right wing parliament, right wing american president, right wing jews..except for right wing pious muslims.

    Bobby Reply:

    Presenting the “dumb brigade”:

    Starring: the “jeev twins” as the Frauds
    Supporting role: “Uncle Sam” as the joker

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    That is funny! You have an analytical side as well as a funny/creative side! Congrats, keep it up.. It should help people to cool down!

    (If I can offer a word of advice – why use adjectives like “dumb” and “fraud” when discusssing people – a joke that would have been 100% appreciated now becomes 97% appreciated!

    Anyway, keep it up, and show this side once in a while!

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    I feel I am not using these adjectives unwisely. I don’t call everyone arguing with me as dumb or frauds. However Sanjeev has shown that he is a fraud by his selective quoting from a research paper, and honestly Sam’s “broken gramaphone” indeed makes him sound like a joker.

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims in india, want the best of the both worlds.
    They know the cruelty of Sharia in criminal code.

    So they are smart to keep quiet on that front.

    On their own, they are not chosing some parts of Koran.

    But they want to make a big issue on Vandemataram type issues.

    Why dont they protest that if some muslim steals they cannot be put in jail, instead their hand should be cutoff.. They should demand it and go all the way up to supreme court to live according to Mo’s rules.

    (of course, they will do it to non-muslims in their OIC countries)…

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Dear K,
    On this forum nobody is called a Hindu.
    It is more like retarded Hindus (and variants) or Bigot Hindus and then some more.

    But I agree with your suggestion. Just HIndu would do as well as just Bigot

    Sam Reply:

    Actual fatwa issued at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the most important institution of islamic law in the sunni worldIn the Name of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful.

    Al-Azhr

    Council of Fatawa.

    This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality.

    A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine.

    1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments prescribed for this act?

    2) Are his children considered Muslim or Christian?

    The Answer:

    All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, his family and all of his companions.

    Thereafter:

    This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah.

    As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best.

    Seal of Al-Azhr

    Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr.
    Abdullah al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎)
    23rd September 1978.

    L Mirza Reply:

    @Sam

    You are right about the Sharia rules regarding conversion, mixed marriages etc. Apostates are given death sentence (and ipublicly stoned and killed if he is in Saudi Arabia).. It is the law for a societty as it existed in 1000!.

    We Indian Muslims should celebrate Indian constitution. Indian constitution, is based on the western concepts of individual rights, equality etc;. However, it is distinguished from many western constituitions in its elaboration of principles reflecting the aspirations to end the ineqities of traditional social relations and enhance the social welfare of the population. According to constitutionaal scholar Granville Austin, probbly no nation’s constitution “has provided so much impetus toward changing and rebuilding a society for the common good”.

    So, Indian Muslims have same rights as the majority; and in some cases the rights more protected. They have many key rights which non-Muslim minorities do not have in Islamic countries : Muslims in India 1) can appear in courts to testify against anybody 2)pay no jizya 3) are subject to nothing like dhimma 4) can build mosques, and schools as freely as anybody. None of these is permissible for minorities in Dar-al-islam (Muslim) countries.

    FYI Pakistan and Bengla Desh started as secular countries. However, Pakistan was declared an Islamic nation with its 1956 constitution. BenglaDesh constitution was changed to an Islamic one by Gen Ershad havein 1988. So, minorities (mainly Hindus, with a small Christian population) do not have any rights such as the ones listed in the previous paragraph.

    Many Indian Muslims, and their lraders, have really taken a regressive approach of self pity, self denial, and b”lame everybody else” instead of utilizing the constitutional enablers for advancing.. Uneducated Mullahs do not have any concept of the constituition, leaders keep the people in the dark, and knowledgeable elites are afraid of the fundamentalists.

    Obviously, Muslims have to be brought in the mainstream. It will have to happen in two steps. 1) Muslims themselves reconciling to the contradictions of Mulla teachings, personal life, and being a member of a larger society, not just muslim society – Respected, educated Muslims will have to take responsibility to lead this effort 2) Once this is done, a coordinated outreach by all (Muslims and non-Muslims) to bring up the Muslim communities.

    It is tough, but it has to be done. Although the problems are mainly self-inflicted, it is in our best interests to try changing it. If we re successful at this, it is good for the minority Muslim community, the majority community, and India and the world.

    Let this be the gift to the great soul whose birthday we will celebrate in one week from now on oct 2nd.

    Sam Reply:

    @bobby @time @

    apostasy is punishable by death in Saudi..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

    with so much discrimination against other religions and shias, why cant muslims in india boycott Saudi Money ??

    or it is just a talk, that they have nothing to do with Saudi, and keep taking money ..

    Sam Reply:

    I think people should investigate if Zia is taking any money or getting any benefits (like the mosque he goes is funded by Saudi money…) and then question him why he is accepting Religious apartheid money ?

    this is what was done to get rid of apartheid in South Africa..

    We should shame the people taking Saudi money and professing secularism in India (or globally)…

    they cannot have both ways..

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    sam

    Saudi Arbia is the fulcrum of destruction all across the Muslim world. They are also the reason for the mayhem in Pakistan; they are the ones who are funding extremism in india and splitting the once peacefully living community away from the majority community.

    They are funding mosques and madrassas, but not schools and hospitals.

    They have extreme extremist wings like Wahabi, Salafi etc that only preaches hate. The reason you see Burquahs in places where you never saw it before (such as in South india) is due to Saudi pressures. Unfortunately, they will take away the progress South indian muslims have made by forcing us to conform to many things that are “foreign” to us.

    Sam Reply:

    Aryan-Dravidian divide a myth: Study

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Aryan-Dravidian-divide-a-myth-Study/articleshow/5053274.cms

    This paper rewrites history… there is no north-south divide,” Lalji Singh, former director of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB) and a co-author of the study, said at a press conference here on Thursday.

    Senior CCMB scientist Kumarasamy Thangarajan said there was no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India.

    The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally “upper” and “lower” castes and tribal groups.

    Sam Reply:

    with DNA technologies, lot of myths which were politically propagated for a long time will be shattered.

    This ground breaking study would will rewrite history of india (as written by european racists)..

    Welcome..to the new technologies

    It will be ongoing process and there will be more and more surprises…

    (i do not have basis, but would not be even surprised if people migrated from India to other parts of central asia and adjoining parts of europe.

    Just want to say, that if this is true, it will run counter to british lies written in india’s history)..

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ L Mirza

    I agree with you completely. I respect Muslim Indian saints like Khwaja Moinnuddin Chisti… etc. and their Sufism. I have personally been to his shrine more than once.

    But I am islamophobe the moment I see these Wahabis and Maududi’s sons..

    and I keep on using abusing words for these radical forms of Islam like wahabism and political Islam.

    If you are a muslim, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings (as I have been using very harsh words for muslim community as a whole ).

    I have many muslim friends but not likes of Zia who see all goodness in quran and never criticise the faulty views in it. Thats why I have to resort to annoying tactics.

    I love muslim Indian APJ Kalam, Brig Usman (Mahaveer chakra awardee) etc. but hate those who call themselves Muslim first and Indian afterwards (are cause of hatred for me).

    I hope more people like you come forward and tack back religion from clutches of maulavi,s and soft fundamentalists like Zia, Bobby, Amy etc.

    Regards

    sanjeev

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sam,

    It does not break any “myths”. The research you are pointing is relevant to human migration patterns and settlements starting from more than 100. 000 years and upto 50,000 or more years at the least.

    Evidence for Aryan migration comes from lingusitic studies which are around 5000 years or so. There is no contradiction as such between these two findings. Genetic mixing happens over a much longer scale.

    What this study “could” mean is that humans settled in South asia after migrating from Africa, around a 100, 000 years back, and then many of them migrated again to the west and central asia….where they settled over a period of 20,000-50,000 years or possibly more and then some of them came back, much later around 5000 years back , and it is this later migration which goes under the name of “Aryan Migration” theory.

    Sam Reply:

    English historians and Muslims eagerly embraced Aryan Dravidian theory.

    Dravidians were the “original inhabitants” and who got pushed out to south after the aryan migration….

    this is to create a split among hindus of north and south…

    now it is proven that there is no such “dravidian” original inhabitant.
    if later some other people from central asia came to india, that is fine.
    it doesnt support aryan invasion.

    India is fertile land with huge plains at the foothills of Himalayas.
    All the desert and other parched lands always found this to be a good place to come and live and thrive.

  • Gopi Thomas

    “Tharko Pratishta: smrithayo vibhinna
    Nai ko muni ryaas vacha: pramanam
    Dharmaswa tatwam nihitham guhayam
    Maha jano yena gatha: sa pantha: – Mahabharath

    “Arguments do not end. There is not just one prophet. The path is to follow the great people..”

    Zia talks about difficulty in getting a flat , harassment to a Muslim prayer group, violence instigation etc. And his conclusion is destination Delhi (India) is long way off.

    In an earlier response, I noted that I (a Christian) did not have a problem in getting a place (in two different prime areas) when I was in Delhi. I find it extremely unbelievable that an editor of Hindustan Times will not get a flat of his choice, even if the landlord has rental preferences.

    Zia has a flat problem and an assault problem. Then I read few days ago, a minority social activist Aftab Alam telling the press “The (Muslim) women are suppressed in india, Pakistan, and Bengla Desh; most of the Muslim dominated nations give equal rights and status to women”.

    It just is funny!
    (when I say “Muslims” below, I do not mean all, but only those who are busily walking backwards to the era before 1400 years)

    As the Book says, Allah helps those who help themselves.It is high time Indian Muslims stop complaining and start contemplating. Stop pointing fingers at the majority and start pondering about what they should do themselves. Nothing is easier than blaming others.

    They constantly complaint about the failure of IIndian democracy and secularism.
    On the secular front, Muslims are failing individually and collectively. The mother of all the failures is their failure to educate their children. There plainly is no excuse for it.

    Of course, Mulsims are equal citizens with alll the rights. However, I want to highlight four unique “blessings” as long as they consider themselves a minority:

    - India is the only non-Muslim country where Muslim family life is “protected’ under Muslim family Personal Law (Muslims have to decide whether this has been good for them)
    - Democracy where all are equal with equal rights (in fact , Muslims/minorities have special rights protected by articles 25-30 of the constituition (Muslims have to decide whether that is a plus or minus i the long term)
    - Freedom to practice religion is unlimited. In fact, many Muslim countries do not allow unrestricted religious fredonm for its Muslim citizens- Turkey has strict restrictions on religious instititions, Albania, 90% muslims, cannot have Muslim names to its citizens, but only Aakrian names.; Tunisia ibanned fasting during Ramzan because it affects productivity .
    -Freedom of expression ..Friday sermons in many Islamic countries are censored; nobody can speak against their rulers…
    - Independent judiciary

    Legal remedies should be relied on, if the situation allows a legal option. Media’s role is to ensure independent administrative and legal resolutions, not insinuating or implying fault and blame.

    We will never reach “Delhi”, because it is a journey without a destination.; in a democracy it is three feet forward and two feet backward.

    Democracy is an evolving mechanism. The oldest living democracy, USA, is still fine tuning. Women got their voting rights only 30 years before we got independence. Blacks got their voting rights only 25 years after we got our independence. And this is in a country that proclaimed “All men are created equal with inalienable…” . USA democtracy is 225 years old..We are only 60 years old, and we obviously have many things to do. But we should be proud we have the institutions, systems, and people to perfect; we will not be a banana republic; and one day, may be in our children’s or garndchildren’s time we will be the most prosperous democracy on this green earth..

    There will be tensions and skirmishes in a land of bilion people, most of them poor. Once a “discrimination” color is given to any of these, we should be willing to live with its consequences. Past is alive as it happened yesterday. To some, Muslim depredation of Somnath temple , one of 12 Jyotirlingas, is as if it happened yesterday, when a skirmish is reported with one bias. The cycle starts with the Muslim boy lamenting ” what can we poor Muslim of today do about Mahmud of Ghazni”

    Btw, it is time to rethink the leader labels – what motivations a Muslim leader has to alleviate the edginess or orthodoxy; because once it happens, he will not be a leader anymore. If Dalts become non-Dalits, what will a Dalit leader do?

    Was Georeg Fernandez a Christian leader?Pilo Mody a Parsi leader? AK Antony a Christian leader?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    Nobody is complaining about Indian Democracy or Indian secularism. In fact the only people who are complaining are people who seem to be in love with Saudi Arabia and never tire of comparing India to SA. As if, that is the best role model to imulate.

    In paper, India has one of the best constitution. And this helps, for instance to stand up and answer those people who have the mentality that they own the land while muslims are living here on their mercy , and for which they should be eternally grateful.

    To all those people, who incidentally constitute a big group commenting here, a patriotic muslim can say,..f**k off….and he can say that thanks to the Indian constitution.

    However, there is a big difference between being so in paper and being in reality. As Amartya Sen says , between “neeti” and “nyay”.

    Indian society has always been a very violent, unjust and unequal society. Not just in its modern avatar, but for centuries. The attempt always should be to correct it and make it a better society.
    This can happen only when you speak out against all injustices openly, and not by “singing hosannas” of our “great spirit of tolerance”, which all hindus are born with. etc…

    On the other hand, you are of course most welcome to think that Zia is lying, Sachar committee report was made by islamists wanting to make India look bad, that Setalwad is an Chinese agent, RSS is the Indian answer to the Red cross, Sainath is a moron, that the caste system is a thing of the past and that the Dalits don’t do well simply because they are not as hard working and smart as the upper class, that the UN HDI and the World bank reports on condition of inequality in India, is made by commies out to give India a bad name etc..the choice is yours.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    correction: in paper—> on paper

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Bobby,
    You are extrapolating a bit when you say that Indian society was always very violent. Actually, it was not, and I would venture so far as to say that it is still not a very violent society. When more than a billion people live in a place, there are bound to be problems of every kind. In fact, with the kind of problems we have, we are not doing that badly. Of course, there is a lot to be done and lot to criticize. Zia is right in speaking out about the problems, but I think in this current blog, he addressed a somewhat tangential problem. The housing problem has been debated to death. Plus, there is no guarantee that if you are Hindu, then you wouldn’t be discriminated against. A case in point is the treatment of North Indians, specifically, Biharis in Bombay. While there is a problem with marginalization of Muslims in the current society, but it gets tiring if every problem is looked through the prism of bias against Muslims et al. In the case of the housing problems that Zia has mentioned, these problems would go away once Muslims climb up the economic ladder. That is not to say that Delhi has no problems of that kind, but it is worthwhile to remember that a majority of population in Delhi is descended from the refugees from the Partition. Unfortunately, a lot of them hold very regressive and repugnant views about Muslims having been fed on a steady diet of horrors of Partition. In 10 years or so, that would go away. As for Islamophobia, well, that is not restricted to India, per se; it’s quite a general problem.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Bobby

    There is a lot of truth in what Thomas says. There is simply a refusal to accept responsilbility, be in a “zombie” land, blame everything and everybody else, and inertia to do anything in our community. I have sat and listened to my Mulla blaming everybody else; many a times hate; and never the mention of “sabr”.

    Many poor people take these literally. They even advise against taking education loans, indicating it is better to be uneducated and taking a loan and p[aying interest.

    I only defend Muslims when they are really oppressed and mazloom not when they are zalim.

    There is blame to go around; let me say 80% is ours. I am looking forward to a day when I can slap a Hindu (or vice versa) at a bus stop and it will not be reported as Hindu Muslim problem. But people like Zia are motivated to report everything under a Hindu Muslim color. If he was true to himself, he would have provided a constructive solution rather than dumping everything at the feet of the majority community. First and foremost it is a Muslim problem, Muslims have to arrive at creative solutions, hopefully in cooperation and consultaion with our Hindu bretheren; but the main motivation is ours; we are the ones who will end up big time losers! I have many ideas to float, I hope Zia will have a column on recommended solutions rather than “breaking down and slicing the community under various silos” as you suggested.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    Thomas belongs to the “other Thomas” school of thought.- Thomas Friedman,

    According to this world view, the whole “world is flat”, meaning a level playing field, and the only problem is that some people are not hard working enough. All the rich are rich precisely because they have been smart and hard working, while the poor are poor because they are lazy, good for nothing, who just don’t want to do anything productive.

    In my opinion, this is trash. The most sympathetic words I can use for such a view is that the author is incapable of recognizing his a s s from his head. The worst is that Thomas Friedman is a fraud. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

    Its fine that you want to see Muslims solve their problems themselves and work towards bettering their society. Since you belong to the muslim community, its a good attitude to take. Similarly, since I come from a hindu family, I feel I should speak out against the biases that exist against minorities and lower castes as well as the hindutva a s s h o l e s . They are the biggest danger to a secular and modern India.

    K Reply:

    @ Bobby Badrinath – Actually, its the maoists with their marxist and stalinist motives that are the biggest threat to India, as per our PM.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Indian Muslim’s apathy to education goes back in time. IThe primary cause for decline in our education is ourselves; I maintain that view. (Thomas Friedman or whatever).

    It was not, and is not a big thing in our “basket” of things to do.

    Even before partition Muslim mindset has been the victim of conceptual negativism. It is a well-documented fact that when forceful resistance to the British was no more expedient or possible, the Muslims who were the “rulers” withdrew to purposive cultural isolation. The 1857 loss further accelerated this.Under Ulema’s direction, contacts with the British and Hindus were discouraged and introduction of new cultural and educational elements within Muslim life was severely eschewed. When the British was introducing new systems, language, technology in India, Hindus finally released from muslim rule were rapidly adopting the British offerings including education, while Muslims chose not to partiicpate in the professional , government, or educational life of the country. In fact Ulemas called to religion as a solution/salvation- instead Muslimst turned into religiosity.

    The Muslim elite also did not care for education. Even Sir Syed, the founder of Aligarh Muslim University, had this disdain against ordinary Muslims attending schools and colleges.. In an address at the foundation laying ceremony of Madrasa Anjuman-e-Islamia in Bareilli, UP, he said that he finds no use learning English by them.. “It is better and in the interests of the community that they are engaged in the old form of study …It appears appropriate if you teach them some writing and Mathematics. They should be taught tracts of everyday affairs through which they know beliefs and practices of Islamic faith”.

    It is well-known how Sir Syed’s “numbers theory” influenced his political (or lack of political)thoughts, and how his political testament prevented the absorption of the Muslim community in the nationalistic movement., as well as the larger educational movements happening in the country. The “numbers theory “took root in the community, creating an inferiority complex. Many historians point to this as the seed of partition.

    A telling example to the approach to education can be got from an incident in 1935. When William Bentinck established the first medical college in Calcutta in 1935, the Muslim response to it was strange and pessimistic. For their hatred of English, and since the language of instruction was not Urdu, they started a protest movement to shut down the college. Non-Muslims, instead had a movement to ensure Indians will be offered admissions; while Muslims persistently clamored for its closure .

    Hyderabad Nizam also didnt care a hoot for educating Muslims (or Hindus)

    Post independence absorption of education among Muslims obviously is dismal, not because there is not enough government encouragement (of course, more will be better); but our own lack of desire to take advantage of what is there. Obviosuly, a better outreach program would have helped. Our leaders have used us as a pawn in their identity politics. Keeping us in “dismal” condition is always good for political parties in election time. A recent BBC reports four thousand Madrasas were started in the last five years..These schoolds instead of improving the lives of the students, spoil their futures..

    The only way we can be an integral part of the national mainstream is through education (not Urdu, not Madrasa; many leaders are still clamoring for Urdu). We have to emphasize education with unrelenting dynamism.Through education, we will harness our talents and utilize our capabilities to the fuill, to compete successfully in all walks of life. Then only, we will overcome any perceived or real discrimination.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    One question. Would your view extend to the condition of lower castes in this country?

    Bobby Reply:

    Gopi,

    Kuriens are syrian christians, converts from Namboodari brahmins, just as Azim Premzi a succesful Muslim is a convert from a Upper caste hindus, which is another good example for what I said, that the bigger divide in India is really the caste divide. Most upper castes whether from christian community or Muslim or Hindus hold a big chunk of power and money in India.

    Examples of violence in Indian society: The only country in the world which has racism, sanctified by religion and society, for around 2000 years.

    Riots after riots after riots. A train, with passengers, is burned in Godhra, and people are massacred in Ahmedabad, with no connections to the killers.

    People are butchered because they “skinned cows”. Even the shadow of a lower caste is considered as making a person impure. I mean; is this your great tolerlant, just and peaceful society? Please tell me what then is the definition of unust, intolerant and violent, to me?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Pl. explain us about Ashrafs and Arjals.

    Stop playing this divide and rule tricks.

    You worry about your religion (rather politics).

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Zia’s issue was focused on Muslims. I will not be able to offer much on the caste issue; will participate to the extent I can if this subject comes up as a blog item in future.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    Well, In my opinion the two issues are related, simply because most of the muslims are indeed converts from lower castes. The ones who are educated and are economically well off, are mostly either converts from upper castes or are from old nobility. This list includes Jinnah, Sir Syed, and Azim Premzi.

    Ofcourse its true that amongst the lower castes themselves ther is a further impoverization and further lack of education. This is a much smaller disparity than the differences brought about by caste factor. The cultural issues you bring about only answer the latter “smaller disparity”, not the prominent difference which is due to caste biases.

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby ( Baabur)

    Do i need to paste your own statement whether you are a hindu or a Muslim.

    You are nothing but a bearded mullah with a skull cap and wearing three quarter pyjama.

    Come out with truth man, Does your everlasting source of knowledge tell you to tell lie about yourself also ?

    Let me check your comments in month of June 2009.

    I think you are being funded by Saudi’s for your propaganda about the religion of peace.

    Bobby Reply:

    nutty fraud sanjeev,

    Some time back I had referred your twin to a certain institution in Ranchi. I suggest you should join him there.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Saeed-moves-HC-against fake case

    http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/4/200909252009092503515164073e0b0e8/Saeed-moves-HC-against-%E2%80%98fake%E2%80%99-cases-%E2%80%98illegal%E2%80%99-ban.html

    See height of Islamophobia:

    Police accused Saeed of making speeches in which he incited people to wage

    [Reply]

  • K

    This is absurd and biased. I would only believe it because so many educated, liberals are saying it.

    After having lived in India for most of my life, I havent seen anything like the discrimination being publicized on this blog.

    Ofcourse, either I am in denial or the liberals here are unable to see anything except communal hatred in everything from their maid’s service to mosque locations in their vicinity.

    I have lost interest in this blog because it presents a biased world view, centered around the perceived ‘injustices’ in the most tolerant society I have known.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    Its not your fault. Its human nature to not see the faults in oneself.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Thanks Bobby, that clears everything for me.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @ K

    Don’t lose hope…

    You are absolutely right – every little thing is nitpicked as an act of intolerance, while it may well bea friendly rivalry between two football teams.

    And the liberal Zia comes to know about the bigotry in his building through his poor maid..At least some Muslims can afford to employ maids. (by the way he had an Arabic tutor in his childhood; and he read Quran multiple times… tell me how many Hindus learn Sanskrit and how many Hindus read Bhagavad Gita… tell me how many Christians learn Latin or Armaic — of course they do read Bible; but then they read other holy books too)

    Liberals delight on dreaming about problems..Then they can talk about the usual suspects – colonialism, castism, minority suppression, yada yada.. They never have a solution for anything, but only pontification of the reasons. To blame is their game.They never give any credit to the wonderful accomplishments India has made against potentially insurmountable odds – large population, unbelievable diversity in languages, life styles, religious beliefs; illiteracy, food shortage etcv..

    Of course, we do have problems; country and its people are prepared to solve them. It takes a while in democratic societies. We are not China to relocate groups of people, suppress freedoms.

    But this is a democracy; so let us all air our opinions!

    .

    [Reply]

    Centerist Reply:

    Hey Thomas,

    Why do u quote example of christianity alongside indian religion like sikhs, hindu and buddhist. Just keep in mind christianity is as foreign as islam and u just dont give **** examples from Christianity!!!! just don’t be hypocrite and don’t try to hide behind hindus and sikhs as u r one of them and pointing mullahs as black sheep. both religions are outsider to india thats it……..and both are not acceptable no matter u read latin or whatever!!

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Hi MIrza

    Such clarity and honesty is rare and I mean rare across the board.

    I think the first step and the most important one is to identify the root causes of the problem and solutions from there are not too difficult, if sincere and persistent efforts are made.

    In my opinion, which could be wrong, the Muslim voices we get to hear, not from the religio-political leaders alone but from voices like that of Zia and other blogs not only disagree about Saudi Arabia, but often hold it up as a model. The arguments are, have you seen any riot there? Have you seen the low crime rate?

    Even here Mr Zia does not think Wahabism is that bad as it is made out to be, for him it is just a bit irritating.
    Go on Two circles, find articles like “From Ignorance to Wisdom” can u guess what is the subject? What you pointed as a threat to progress i. e. seeing Burquahs in places where you never saw it before. Yes the article was about Kerala and it is considered a movement towards Wisdom.

    There was a comment by some saying how he had made it in India, been to IIT-IIM and leading a happy life now, without facing discrimination. (Now it is nobody’s point that discrimination does not exist, but it exist for many others and in many forms.) Imagine the response this gentleman got there a long one Headlined: Tyranny of successful carrier

    And then went on to explain why success in current world does not matter, what about the hereafter. This is not a one off case, dissenting muslim viewpoints are proclaimed as pseudo Muslims or RSS Bramhins faking a Muslim name. Our friend here Mr. Gopi Thomas is permanently classified as RSS/VHP Bramhins. I really admire his tenacity that he still comments there.

    Another one I can’t forget was a 21-22. year bright man with humble beginnings, who had just joined a big firm and bought a new Santro, excitedly telling others It is possible isn’t that bad as we believe.
    Well same treatment.

    There are just too many voices suggesting all the problems are because you have strayed from true path. Some would say India’s problems can only be solved If Hindus convert to Islam of course there are liberals who say if not Islam convert to Christianity.

    Many who are sure 26/11 was not what it is made out to be. The Liberals will only question Karkare’s murder. Editor of Rashtriya Sahara has never stopped saying Karkare’s death is questionable. May be in ordinary circumstances questioning Karkare’s death wouldn’t matter as much but there were not ordinary circumstances

    A statement by a very old leader (either Mr Engineer or Mr Wahiuddin Pardon my spellings) that Islam was not about physical appearances like beards and burqas, that it should be in your heart and in your actions. Imagine the response “If you had to sell out you should have at least bargained for more, why so cheap” again I am just citing the more remarkable ones.

    Well I can go on but it is no use. Your suggestion that respected and educated people should take leadership is right at a Macro level. But I think these leaders will have to be many maybe 1 or 2 in each Muhalla and I don’t see any Pan India leadership in existence it is same for all. These individuals in my opinion need not be respected ones, rather earning the respect should be an outcome of their work. May be I am wrong but these new leaders should try and stay away from controversial issues there are enough Human right campaigners to take up those issues. Enough to talk about rights and injustice. May be the new ones should promote the idea of self interest, personal ambitions. It is not such a bad thing. You can think about community and society after you have made yourself. Till then self interest will be just fine.

    Then there are some basic issues which need to be addressed , I don’t know how. For e.g. Financial Services, which is emerging as one of the largest employers by itself and is also the source of a large no of IT jobs.

    The example of education loans given by Shoeb is just one. I have seen people being told don’t work for banks, Mutual Funds, Insurance cos and even on Software projects where end user is a Bank or MF or Insurance cos. Now I don’t know if people follow these but the fact that these questions are even asked does indicate something serious. In fact the advice I saw being given was you can join a bank only as a peon or watchman any position higher than this will be held against you in the hereafter

    I hope these Mullahs are not aware of the fact that most of the manufacturing companies also borrow money, pay interest and invest in MF’s otherwise even these could be listed in red zones.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    @SKS

    Thanks SKS.

    You are absolutely right that this is the time for action ! There are enough liberals and HRCs listing the problems using free money from foundations.

    Mr Engineer is correct in saying that real Islam/Muslim is not about wearing caps, sporting beards, inhuman covering of women etc;. But, for Wahabis, outward appearance is more important than inner purity. They are the ones who are instigating violence worldwide. Their strain is taking over Sunni establishments worldwide. My hope and prayer is that Indian intelligence agencies are taking a close watch on their activities here.

    The government and Muslim leaders have promoted the “give me” culture. Muslims have to be weaned away from that; and more importantly focus on self development through grass roots outreach activities.

    [Reply]

  • K

    Its high time we had a blogger called ‘They call me a Hindu’ on this forum !

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Its interesting that people who preach muslims to look into the weaknesses in their religion and see its faults, don’t have in them to see the weaknesses in Indian society in general and in particular hindu society.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Typical muslim attitude..clear sign of soft terrorists..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    High time what we have a blogger

    “A hindu blogger”

    or

    “I am Hindu and secular”"

    [Reply]

    webmail1 Reply:

    typical fanatic hindu attitude…..hard terrorist!!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Typical sign of propaganda. Not a single hindu has been convicted as terrorist whereas we can see muslims terrorists everywhere.

    What do you call yourself..Cyber Jehadi a soldier of murderous god.

  • Gopi Thomas

    Bobby

    “Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti” – RigVeda, 1.164.46 (uttered somewhere in the Indus valley by our ancestors in 1500 BC) “To what is one , the sages give many names”

    All theologians and historians zero in on the above line from Rig Veda as the origin of universalism. For ancient Indians, this idea was worth preserving and passing on than a founder’s or person’s memory.Because kings and subjects believed and embraced this, India since time immemorial has been a land of broad hiumanism..

    You are living on some other planet (or may be I am!) when you make the statement India is and always has been one of the most violent societies. The living reality of India does not support your conjecture; for if itt was true, the profile of our country would have been significantly different; and I hate to say, we would not have hhad a “Muslim problem” (but instead some other problem)..

    Indians have welcomed and absorbed many different “belief systems/religions” . I will not be writing this if our great great great graet—grandfathers were violent and intolerant. Christianity landed on Kerala shores in early first century long before it found its way to Europe. Islam landed on the shores of Kerala almost immediately after the Prophet, long before the murderous invasions of Mahamood of Ghazney.

    In Zia’s earlier column, “Sen and Sensibility”, I presented an idea that Muslims may want to analyze the Kerala Christian example as a potential model for development, inclusion, mainstreaming, etc. With a population of 65 lakhs, thery have accomplished significantly and contributed and contributing immensely, without ever feeling discriminated in Kerala or anywhere else in india. Its illustrious sons and daughters run into pages and pages. Dr Varghese Kurien, the father of the “white” (Milk) revolution, Mrs Anna Chandy, the first woman judge and High court judge in independent India, John Mathai, Finance Minister in the first Nehru cabinet, Dr George Sudarshan, eminent scientist,, Larry Beccker, Dr Cherian, famous heart surgeon, Dr Thomas Thomas, the first thoracic surgeon in India, BG Varghese, famous journalist, and the past editor of HT, Abu Abraham, carrtoonist, Ravi Mathai, the founding director of IIM Ahmedabd (who is considered a “rishi” by many batches of students there), Arundhati Roy, PC Alexander, Ak Antony etc..the list goes on. Educators and nurses belonging to that community serve communities all over India. They have accomplished more than the majority community while maintaining a different religious identity.

    I do agree with you on the macro conditions of Muslims; my difference is only in the causes liberals and Muslims’ spokes persons espouse, and in the solutions.

    Causes are many. Situations are different in different parts of the country. In the South, Muslim asocial metrivcs are close to the majority metrics; howver, in the north it is quite bad. The partition induced helplessness, bewilderment, leadership vaccum coupled with a preexisting isolationist ideology all have a role. Post partition, the North Indian Muslims did not have a ledership to transition them to function as a religiouss, culturlal minority wiithin a secular democartic policy adopted by the leaders of a heterogeneous non-Muslim majority.. At the same time, on the ideological plane, they refused to accept that in a secular modern polit,y the functional unit must be the individual, and not the community. There was no community to guide them. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad could have led them to the right place; however, he was heart broken and withdrawn after the partition.

    One should look at population and concentartion patterns and the premsie of Sachar report before accepting it as an authentic “real condition” report. Especially in your case, you cannot take this report from government as “given”, while you find other actions by government unreliable or untrustworthy.

    Shafeeq Rehman, reserach coordinator at IndiaStat.com indicates that “indeed it is a fact that Indian Muslims is in a bad condition; however , they are not as backward as projected by the Sachar report”. (I do agree bad is bad)). He also finds fault with the particular statistiical method used. He says “this is a report that was issued by the order of the ruling party and this party has the long history of crocodile tears for Muslims. It may well be a political gimmick to create a sense of fear and inferiority among Muslims by political parties in power in view of the Muslim vote bank. Further, most of the facts of this study is prepared by sample survey reports ( a statistical sampling method), and not by census reports. In survey reports any one can prepare the sample and predict according to its will”..

    Muslim conditions in South India, is significatly better than the North indian Mulsims and close to the majority numbers. Higher rate of development filters down to all levels. Kerala being a highly lierate state, there is higher literacy among Kerala Msulims than Muslims in any other region.Role and rate of family planning among Kerala Muslims is higher than Muslims in north or Central India. In other words, when a rtegion develops, all develop.

    47% of the Indian Muslims live in UP, Bihar, and West Bengal; with 300 lakhs just in the Aligarh, Allahabad, lucknow areas. 22% of all Muslims live in UP. These states are quite backward; human resources in those states are not developed for any (including Hindusy); and the general l lack of development in tyose states affect Muslims even worse.

    So, any development scheme will have a better impact (in numbers and reach) if programs are developed for specific areas in the UP/Bihar/WB belt. May be the successful programs from the Southern States should be implemented in the Lucknow/Allahaabd /Aligarh belt followed by other Muslim majority areas in UP/Bihar/WB.

    Also areas can be targeted for exonomic development with a private/public partnership in collaboration with successful Muslim owned businesses. Theere are several successful Muslim owned busineses sucha s Alana, Midday Multimedia. Mirza Tanners, Patel Roadways, Prestige Group, Yousef Hameid’s Cipla, etc who, I am sure will be interested in a govt partnership for economivc development in the Muslim concentrated areas. Similarly ,successful Mulim business communities (families?) in South india such as Rowthers, Bhatkals, Labbays, Marikars etc will be interested in training family owned businesses in partnership with govt.

    A targeted program in Muslim concentrated areas of these three states will crteate better yield than the blanket countrywide programs run by bureaucrats.

    Indian Muslims must aim at cooperation instead of confrontation with Hindus to ensure a better future. For this, they have to introspect, shed their outmoded prejudices,, and change their outdated outlook. They cannot improve their lot by going alone; they have to be an integral part of the national mainstream. Their futuire lies in more and more education to their younger generation.

    Lots of energy is wasted in organizing political parties. Just yesterday a new Muslim party was launched. Indian Muslims must understand ,on their own, even unitedly,under the current parlaimentary systems and patterns , they cannot win setas and they have to collaborate with Hindus to be counted and to win seats. The best value effort is in social development and education, and political influence development rather than political party development; .

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    Interesting statistics. All are doing bad in “BIMARU” states; not just Muslims. The solution should be region by region development; so all improve their conditions.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    One thing clear from Thomas’ statistics is “small is better”. Looks like we would have been much better off if UP, Bihar were divided into five -six states right at independence. The region’s general backward environment, coupled with unwieldy size to eb administered by an inefficient bureaucracy has contributed.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Gopi,
    I think you should start writing your own column. A very well reasoned and well written argument. Critics of our society are sometimes guilty of swinging to the other extreme and arguing as if we existed in vacuum divorced from time and space. Bobby brings forth very important issues, but I think so too that he went too far ahead in characterizing the Indian society as inherently very violent. In fact, on the contrary, for long stretches of time, our civilization has distinguished itself with its humanism. People who cry hoarse as to why we are abandoning our Muslim heritage strangely keep silent about abandoning our more ancient heritage for the fear of their arguments being hijacked by the Hinduvta brigade, which I think is totally unfounded.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Thanks Amit.

    I agree with you in the sense we cannot view situations divorced from history, time, space. Lots of things cannot be legislated. People have deep-rooted feelings; only time will heal them.

    My big issue is that peoplel nitpick a couple of micro things and put in a macro perspective. Does attack on one procession in one village make it an all-india “islam in danger” mode? i do agree our objective should be not even to have one skirmish. hey, we are a country of a billion people!

    We have a proud heritage. Nothing wrong in holding that… Unfortunately, liberals and minorities label ita s huindwata. Ramayana and Mahabharatha are Indian heritages; not just Hindu. The graet sages who unlocked the truth are everybody’s great great great grand fathers; not just Hindus.

    I can go on and on!

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “The graet sages who unlocked the truth….”
    what truth?

  • Gopi Thomas

    The last time I checked the constitution I had a different understanding for a going forward basis.

    One of the major problems educated as well as non-educated has is the total lack of understanding of the constitution. People not knowing the rles of the game is a contributing factor of the degeneration of the GOI. Criminals rule because the ruled do not know the rules.
    More on riots and racism later.

    [Reply]

  • sanjeev

    Most peacefull, just, egalitarian, nonviolent societies since historical times:
    Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Somalia, Sudan, Chechanaya, kosovo, East Timore, Southern Phillipines, Southern Thailand, Nigeria.

    They are still peacfull and harassed by world powers.

    They were always attacked by others and looted of their wealth.
    They don’t have problem of religion because they haven’t left any other group to fight with.

    They all are land of opportunities.

    how can i get citizenship of these peacefull, egalitarian, nonviolent, just societies ?

    Can any one help me out ?

    Zia, Bobby, Mitra are you there ? I think you are the only people who speak truth, thus can guide

    [Reply]

    time Reply:

    Sanjeev you are ignorant!!!

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Sam, no, it should be an “impartial” blogger; who see rights and wrongs from both sides.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    While I agree with your basic premise…

    my question is

    If an unabashed Muslim is given a voice, why not his counterpart in Hindu religion be also given a chance ?

    or only Muslims get to voice their opinions, in the name of peace ??

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    Sam

    Ideally it should be only one, an impartial one.
    In the absence of that; if there is a one sided view; then i agree, there should beb the other view also!

    [Reply]

  • RPD

    I’ve known Zia for a long time and can put my life on the line and vouch that he’s anything but a zealot. What I am appalled by is the standard of debate in this forum. Half the people commenting have no business to be here.

    [Reply]

  • d.art

    for a change, why don’t muslims try to undertand others , is it asking for too much

    [Reply]

  • http://www.carbonrally.com/users/33001 Joseph

    Aw, this was a really quality post. In theory I’d like to write like this too – taking time and real effort to make a good article… but what can I say… I procrastinate alot and never seem to get something done.

    [Reply]

  • Shakil Ahamed

    It is really a nice research and good study on Indian society along with the situation of Muslim in India
    we all know that government ignorance towards Muslim is the root cause for

    [Reply]

  • http://shadesofbrowninc.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=165454 Moira Rupe

    This is a really good read for me, Must admit that you are one of the best bloggers I ever saw.Thanks for posting this informative article But they can gloat all they want; people just have more miles now that they can use these days.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    the biggest secret this exponent of truth hid and which has affected indias pOlity for the last 60 years . —he was instrumental in giving social recognition and his name to one mr firoz khan who married indira gandhi in london . INDIRAS NAME WAS CHANGED TO MAMOUN BEGUM . aFTER OPPOSITION BY KAMALA AND NEHRU THIS COUPLE BACK IN INDIA UNDERWENT A VEDIC FORM OFMARRIAGE FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION BY VEDIC RITES AS NERHRU THOUGHT THAT OTHERWISE BOTH HIS AND INDIRAS POLITICAL FUTURE WOULD BE IN JEOPARDY . GANDHI SOLVED TE PROBLEM BY DECLARING FIROZ TO BE HIS ADOPTED SON AND HENCE GAVE HIM THE NAME GANDHI

    THE REST IS HISTORY AND A DYNASTY WAS IMPOSED ON THE COUNTRY —-
    ONE WISHES THAT THIS APOSTLE OF TRUTH ETC WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE TRUTHFUL IN THIS MATTER AND MENTIONED HIS ROLE IN ALL THIS — TRUTH CAN BE TAILORED TO SUIT ONESELF AND ONES OPINIONS
    READERS CAN GOOGLE WIKIPEDIA FOR MORE DETAILS

    [Reply]

  • Syd Ram

    Unlikely. I think the method of even compiling a selection committee should be revamped. After, all everything is to be earned on merit and not given to them because they played cricket earlier.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/rsikd Rasik Girey

    very well i agree with dis blogger

    [Reply]

  • Prince

    How people can become forgetful and thankless is being seen with their attitude once Dhoni and “Team” failed in two test series. The biggest reason for this failure is failure of our batting line up..but Dhoni has to be blamed for it. Gambhir and Sehwag have emerged as the most failure batsmen in these two series and before Dhoni is asked to resign from test captaincy, these two guys should be asked to leave team India and play for IPL in which they stay happy. Not a single pesonality in the current team is a better captaincy material than Dhoni. Records tell that.

    [Reply]

  • Bond

    Wonder what spark you see in Kohli apart from his omnipresent middle finger. If Kohli becomes the captain them we will have a team of brats who will hurl abuses after taking taking every wicket and scoring every half century.
    The temperament and behavior of Virat Kohli reminds me of the infamous Pandher Kohli of Noida.

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/authorspeak BS Murthy

    Given his behavioural pattern Down Under,
    isn’t it a scary idea to have Kohli as skipper?

    [Reply]

  • vishal

    dhoni should not be blamed for it he cant go and bat for the whole playing 11 alone.its the batsman fault not dhoni .

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/shubhra.roy Shubhra Aurita Roy

    lovely article. thank you. its fantastic… pl keep writing

    [Reply]

  • Hitesh

    That’s the problem with you and your community !
    You don’t want to acknowledge your forefathers and thinking somebody their in desert fathered your mothers !

    [Reply]

  • Hitesh

    “Taqiya” called and recommended by the Prophet(May Peace Be Upon Him as he needs) himself to deal with non-believer. Taqiya means deception, treachery.

    [Reply]

  • keyloggers

    keyloggers…

    Hanooz Dilli dur ast (Delhi is long way off) : They Call Me Muslim…

  • Rajesh

    Please explain to me why there is no violence against Christians, Jains, Parsis, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. Please don’t come up with argument about violence against Sikhs in 84 which was completely driven by one party which calls itself secular. In fact, I ask you why is there always a provocation by the Muslim minorities against the majorities? What is the reason for the minorities to throw petrol bombs on religious processions by Hindus if it passes through a street where a Mosque is located? Why is the violence and threat against a Hindu man if he intends to marry a Muslim women? Why did the so called tolerant minorities burn a train full of Hindu women and children at Godhra? How come people like Owaisi – a representative of minorities come up with speech that if the police is taken out for 15 minutes then the 25 crore Muslim minorities will annihilate the 100 crore Hindu majorities? So long as the Quran has three rules for infidels – 1. Submit to Islam; 2 Pay Jijya tax 3. Be prepared to be killed, and the common Muslim continues to believe in this hypocrite religious bigotry the Muslims in India will have problem assimilating. The fact is that the common Muslims don’t want to be part of this secular democracy because it is against the basic tenets of Islam. So instead of barking here, people like you and Zia need to stand up in front of the mirror and ask yourself why why why and you will get the answers to the stupid article written above.

    [Reply]

  • vintage acoustic guitars

    vintage acoustic guitars…

    Hanooz Dilli dur ast (Delhi is long way off) : They Call Me Muslim…