Sen and sensibility



Stating the obvious and explaining what needs no explanation are not always avoidable. Nor can we escape familiarity, though it may only breed contempt. This is especially true of Hindu-Muslim relations in India, largely defined by differences. A correction of perception one has of the other has to be emphasized; but the more this is attempted, the more it results in the two communities going round in circles again.

In English essayist William Hazlitt’s words, ‘The spirit of malevolence survives the practical exertion of it.’

So what is wrong? Why is it taking so much time? The approach has to be medical: treat to cure, if possible; otherwise treat to ameliorate the condition, but above all, diagnose first. There is another medical principle that applies just as well: not all diseases are curable, but all diseases are treatable. This means where cure is not possible, treatment is primarily aimed at improving the symptoms.

Hindrances to better Hindu-Muslim relations can easily be pared down to a set of familiar perceptions of the Muslim community, which are located in the country’s historical pasts and reinforced by the way Muslims (who though numerically less than Hindus are still statistically strong at 130 millions) are seen to be addressed by the country’s secular foundations.

India’s reputation as a modern secular state has been beset with many attacks on the country’s concept of secularism itself. These attacks have ranged from some intellectual-political positions to a scoffing Western criticism. But it is in the criticism offered by the so-called Hindu nationalists that such censure finds its most potent form, and which ultimately decides the quality of inter-community relations.

These, as mentioned earlier, are ‘familiar’ criticisms because they are repeatedly offered but are fairly recent if India’s wide history is taken into account. It is important to note that such criticism of Indian secularism overlaps criticism of Muslims themselves. However, often it is not Muslims but non-Muslims who fend off or address such criticism.

An interesting rebuttal is to be found in Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen’s essay ‘Secularism and its Discontents’. No quoting out of context here or selective quoting, as is often alleged of Muslim writers like me.

In his essay, Sen starts the section on the perception of Muslim disloyalty with (guess what) the inevitable cricket match as the yardstick of patriotism.

He states: “Spirited anecdotes abound this subject, varying from alleged frequency of Indian Muslims spying for Pakistan to their tendency, we are told, of cheering the Pakistan cricket team in test matches (whether or not Indian Muslims do this in any significant number — I do not know of evidence in that direction — I ought to confess that this non-Muslim author often does just that, when the Pakistan team plays as well as it frequently does).” Sen is confessing to supporting the Pakistani team in an India-Pakistan match. What should we make of this? Nothing, of course. When there is nothing much to be read between the lines, nothing much should be read.

When discussing sectarian relationships of this nature, a repeat of some ‘irritants’ already taken up in earlier blogs in some manner is inevitable. The ‘cricket-match yardtsick’ therefore could not escape Sen’s attention, just as mine. And presently, here is another ‘field experience’ that is as frequent as the ‘cricket-match yardtsick’ allegation itself.

My own personal memories of some of non-Muslim girls I knew in college are those of their gloating in the appeal of Wasim Akram, the former Pakistani cricket captain. One girl would have his postcard stuck up in her memo book.

It is true that Muslim kings invaded this country, and demolished not just temples but pillaged her resources. In the context of Indian secularism today, Sen argues that it is “not essential to make any claim on how Muslim emperors behaved”.  The “‘guilt’ of Muslim kings need not be transferred to the 110 million Muslims” of today’s India. It is one thing for Sen to say this, quite another if a Muslim author were to state the same thing, mind you.

Sen further states that there is no “serious evidence” to prove political disloyalty on behalf of India Muslims.

Hindus themselves have had many different views of past Muslim rulers, as Sen points out, and he goes so far to assert that the view of Mughals as intolerant of Hindus is largely a contemporary political construct.

He cites an essay by Sri Aurobindo, ‘The Spirit and Form of Indian Polity’ (Arya Publishing House Calcutta, 1947). Sri Aurobindo writes: The Mussulman domination ceased very rapidly to be a foreign rule…It was as splendid, powerful and beneficial and it may be added, in spite of Aurangzeb’s fanatical zeal, infinitely more liberal and tolerant in religion than in any medieval or contemporary European Kingdom or empire.”

Sen instantly adds a courageous concurrence: “It is hard to construct a picture of persistent persecution of Hindus by Muslims kings — tempting though that hypothesis clearly is to some Hindu politicians.”

In the study of religion, there is something called ‘a priori’, as opposed to ‘a posteriori’. ‘A priori’ denotes that which is ‘prior to or independent of human experience observation’. It also denotes a state of pre-existing identity. One potent criticism of secularism offered by Hindutva proponents draws from this ‘a priori’ concept. It reasons that India is predominantly presaged on an overriding Hindu culture.

This notion transforms itself into a contesting claim, vis-à-vis Indian Muslims, who in this context, seem to be struggling to remain who they are: Indian Muslims. A hostile view of Mughals and the violent Partition are perceived as logical constructs that have helped sustain the taint on Muslims as a community that has not — and never wants to — integrate.

Is India largely, culturally Hindu? Does an overarching Hindu identity loom over the Indian identity? What is Sen’s take? He states: “Even if the religious identities were somehow ‘prior’ to the political identity of being an Indian, one could scarcely derive the view of a Hindu India based on that argument alone.”

This has been a country of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jains, Sikhs, Parsis Buddhists. There were Christians in India when there were none at all in Britain, Sen states. Moreover, there have been strong agnostic and atheistic Indian traditions, like that of Carvaka and Lokayata schools of materialism, which had no place for God. ‘Lokayata darsana’ was an Indian philosophical school ‘restricted to the experienced world’. Hinduism itself has many plural shades. Lord Rama is a divine entity in largely in north and west India but Rama is no more than an epic hero in Hindu Bengal, Sen states.

So Sen says: “…deriving an Indian identity from a Hindu identity…fails to recognize the implications of India’s immense religious diversity”. He then adds that “Hindu traditions do not constitute a melting pot in any sense whatever.”  That however need not keep Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and Parsis from living together in “great harmony and mutual tolerance…”

Sen’s essay also addresses the charge that Indian secularism has promoted asymmetry and favoritism, commonly called appeasement, such as the Muslims’ privilege of having their own set of personal laws. Sen feels that such laws are not in any way unfair to Hindus, but to Muslim women. He also notes that polygamy as a “provision is extremely rarely invoked by Indian Muslims”. (In an earlier essay, I had addressed polygamy as an effort to get more out of Islam than there is.)

Finally, turning to the “cultural critique” of Indian secularism, Sen states that even if Indian culture was basically Hindu culture, it would be “very odd to alienate, on that ground, the right to equal political and legal treatment of minorities”.

In America, there is this famous debate over whether it is a melting pot or a salad bowl? No matter how well you toss a salad bowl, the individual ingredients retain their size, shape, colour and identity. Yet they are called a salad because they come together. On the other hand, in a melting pot, different ingredients blend together and are no longer recognizable in their original form. They give one another a bit of their own essence. The debate is still on. What then is India? A multi-ethnic stew of a thousand races, religions, castes, cultures and language — perhaps.

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  • gopi thomas

    i think Haq is asking the wrong question. There is an Indian culture; civilization going back to 6000 plus years ago. The great books of India – Vedas, Upanishads, MAhabharath, Ramayan, Gita etc- are not Hindu creations, Indian creations. So, in that sense all Indians should be proud of the heritage , of our forefathers questing the emaning of life when barbarians lived elsewhere.

    Unfortunately or fortunately the later ady Hindus picked it up as theirs; whatebver we say about all otehr religiuosn in India, all the adherents of those religions were at one time ancient Indians/Hindus. I for one, being a christian, do not ahve any issue with that. However, i would say, Muslims, ebacuse they ahve not yet undergone a “reformation” have major issues in admitting that. For them , the world atrts in early 600s when the Prophet was born; and unfortunately ends along with Him. THEy are not able to think in terms of a nation state, when Ugyar Muslims do not ahve freedom (?) tehys tart crying (thinking Saudi Arabian Muslims have fredom!)..

    Sikhs, Christians, budhists,a nd any otehr modern religion will coexist in India with Hindus nicely. I fear, unless Islam sepaartes religion and state, it will be tough for them to live in any place. And we are seeing the results of that now in terms of worldwide funadmentalist Islamic terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Thomas,

    Why is it a necessary criteria for all Indians to be proud of the Upanishads, the Ramayana, the Gita etc. In my opinion, most of the contents in all these book are junk. At an intellectual level I think the ideas they propound like re-incarnation and karma theory, existence of a soul is all nonsense. Why should that prevent me from being an Indian?

    Moreover among other aspects of our culture is the fact of the extremely disgusting way in which Dalits and other lower castes who I think must be of the order of 200 million in this country have been treated with sanction from the Hindu religious texts.I cannot feel proud of such a tradition. But I do not feel that makes me any less Indian.

    The Upanishads or the Ramayana and the Gita are the heritage of the upper castes of this country. The Dalit culture is distinct from these. Democracy does not mean majoritianism.

    Ideas and culture should always be questioned not respected or worshiped.

    And finally Islam separating religion from state is a problem that middle eastern countries have to address not Indians, because Hindus here are the overwhelming majority.

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    You are crossing the line. Firstly, youi do not know anything about any of the religious books and so be careful of what you say. You also do not know which books talk about what caste system and so be careful there too. I see that you keep commenting on one and all and basically have no facts to support anything that you speak.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    thanks for your reply. Have a good day.

    Anil Reply:

    Another moorn who never touched any ramayan geeta is givign lecture on ramayan..

    [Reply]

    suparna Reply:

    very true.. these bobby types are ruining our country.. calling rich indian literature useless!

  • Atul Barry

    There are several issues to address:

    1. it is true that the ‘history’ of the Indian subcontinent dates to many millennia BCE, and Mr. Thomas is correct to point out that Vedas, Upanishads, etc., were not ‘Hindu’ creations. In fact, the word attributed to the prevailing faith, Hinduism, came to be used after the start of the Muslim rule, to denote the religion beyond the river Sindhu; it is really Arabic in origin. Prior to that, people referred to themselves as the deity or philosophy they adhered to, like Vaishnavs, Shaivs, etc.

    In essence, Hinduism is not a monolithic religion, but an amalgamation of different philosophies through the ages. It has absorbed and amalgamated different lines of thoughts as it has evolved. In that sense, ‘Hindu’ tradition itself is ’secular’ as evident from the fact that an agnostic or an atheist can call himself a Hindu. If we look at Hinduism in this catholic perspective, then it may be safe to say that Indianness is largely Hinduistic.

    2. Bobby makes a good point about the reservation of these sacred texts by the upper-caste Hindus, especially the Brahmans to the exclusion of everyone else. The ratio of these upper castes is a shade less than 20% of the entire population of Hindus, so I cannot blame him if he calls these works as junk. The reading of Manu Smriti and a passage in Ramcharitmans that calls for pouring lead in the ears of Shudras, to name just two, would not exactly be music to the ears of 80% of Hindus. In a way, Hindus have practiced a religiously sanctioned apharthied for over 2000 years, and it continues to this day.

    3. Gopi talks of the Western concept of the ’separation of Church and State’. Well, it should apply to India and Hindus as well. I hope he disregards the call of the Parivar to make India a ‘Hindu Rashtra’.

    4. Gopi implies terrorism being a Muslim phenomenon. While it is true that the first suicide bombing in the world took place in Palestine, the Tamil Tigers – Hindus fighting against a ‘Buddhist’ state – perfected the art and used it almost exclusively. As an aside, it is truly ironic that a Buddhist state (Buddhism preaches non-violence) used massive force to rout out Hindu terrorists.

    5. I believe Gopi is correct to observe that the Muslim ummah is stuck in a time-warp, and exists mentally in the middle ages. Unlike Christianity (read the West), there has not been an Islamic Renaissance yet. However, the reasons are not merely inbred, but the fact that Western (read Christian) nations have propped up autocracies throughout the Muslim world for their own selfish reasons (oil). Only a couple-three of Muslim majority countries are democracies, and even they are not as vibrant as India.

    6. The India-Pakistan cricket match issue brings to mind another charge made by my niece against Muslims. “They never stand up when the national anthem is play in cinema halls”, she said to me, implying they were unpatriotic. Well, I have seen a lot of Hindus, including myself, make a beeline to the exit while that song is on, but she’d never call us unpatriotic.

    7. To answer Mr. Haq’s question. Canada calls itself as a ’salad-bowl’ while America is proud to be a ‘melting-pot’. This is one of the reasons that there is so much commotion about ‘illegal immigration’ as it threatens the national myth of amalgamation. Essentially, when a person comes off the boat in any country, he exists for a time as a ’salad ingredient’, but with time – a generation or two – there is eventual amalgamation.

    It is true that there is pressure in the US to amalgamate, while in Canada differentiation is encouraged. There are good and bad points for each, but ultimately one has to be a part of the whole – melt into the pot – to further a national identity.

    In my view, India is a melting pot. Hindus and Muslims have lived together for hundreds of years. However, the texture of any amalgam does not have to be uniform, as we evidence in present day India.

    I, a Hindu, have lived in a majority Christian nation (the US) for about three decades. While I find myself ‘melting’ slowly into the ‘pot’ I have had no issues or problems of retaining my own religious identity. Such should be with India, as well.

    Regards,
    Atul Barry

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Thanks Bobby, Atul.

    I am not seeking to make India a Hindu nation; but an Indian nation. Contarry to what bobby says about 20% higher, Dalits etc; the essenec of Indianness when great thoughts were developed was one of equality. Anybody could eb anybody. Vyasa was a fisherwoman’s son. VAlmiki was a hunter. Those were the days (like now) education and knowledge elevated people.

    Like any system, eventually the equanimous Indian system also deteriorated, peopel wanted to protect their rights,a nd soon birth decided what one would become.

    We are all much better now, that education is retaken as the leveler.

    Athithi devo Bhava, loka samastha sukhino bhavandu , etc were just not slogans for us. When moslems came to the keraal coast in 650 (the first indian mosque is in kerala long before Gauri and gazani), and when christians ac,me in 32 to Cranganore long before western countries ebcame Christain, and when Dutch and Jewish peopel came to carnganore, Kerala, theyw ere all taken in, given land, given land to construct their places of worship by Indian or hindu kings.

    Bobby talks about why Muslism are not the only terrorists. Taht is true. However, when tamil tigers create acts of violence, they do it only in Sri LAnka. When IRA has problems, theyd o it only in North Ireland. This muslim terrorism phenomenon affecyts all. Hence my theory that it has to be met by all countries, eliminated. It si an ideology of one group’s eblief – ruling the world according to Qur’a,n (an interpretation tehse people believes wholeheartedly–It is a jehad for them). So, i clearly differentiate other acts of terrorism which are isolated acts to this version which is spreading havoc all over thew orld , especially in Muslim countries themselves, from Somalia to PAkistan.

    Yes, everybody has equal rights,a nd no religion should have any higher priority. i as a Christian have enjoyed tremendous ebnefits (bnot from reservation or anything liek that) in independent india. I am proud of my Indian heritage; I ahve nots een any reference to hindus or Dalits or ill treatment of a group in the great books of india, MAhabhaarth, Ramayan, VEdas, Upanishads, Geeta. Whetehr one is a Muslim or a Hindu or a Christian, one has to accept India’s heritage , good and bad. A country is not what ahppened after independence or last 200 years or last 2000 years.

    And, if Msulims really want to integarte (and here the Umma etc comes into paly), tehy have to slowly start giving Indian (not hindu) names to their children, their various communal groups. I always see their boys club or developmental organizations anmes as some “darul nijahuddin” etc (and not gramin kshem society or something like that); I see among Christians many many Sunils and Anils and Priyankas and Kaveri and TArun and Manoj and even rajashekhar Reddys ; i am yet to meet a Sunil or Anil or anything clsoe to taht among Muslims. not taht that is important; but if acceptance and integartion are objectives, tehse little things have to happen. In KErala, theer weer Msulim ministers who would not light an oil lamp to inaugurate a function saying that it is haram for him to light an oil lamp.

    Islam is at a crossroad worldwide. It ahs nothing to do with India or US or Uk or anything. Un;ess its moderates take over and set a new course, there will not be an Islam faith 200 years from now; all indications being the violent group killing each other.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Thomas,

    All the lofty thoughts are unfortunately just that: “thoughts”. The karma theory for instance is nothing but a religious sanction to uphold the caste system. It basically says that the evils you do in this life will be paid back to you in the next.

    As a corollary it follows that Dalits are Dalits because of what they did in their previous life, and so how they are treated by the caste Hindus is what they deserve for the sins of the previous life.

    Anyways, since this post is not about hinduism, I think there is not much point in discussing this issue.

    Coming back to your post,…. what is an Indian name? I hope you would clarify. Does “Baichung Bhutia” Indian enough according to you? Or do only Sunil and Anil qualify?

    I have to admit I keep seeing very innovative definitions of “being Indian”…. earlier it was supporting the Indian cricket team, now its having “Indian names”….

    [Reply]

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Dear Gopi,
    For once, it is a relief that the familiar suspects ( read Hindu bigots’) are not in the forefront taking on Zia and his thoughts, but a Christian – and a Christian who is proud of both his religion and his country !

    You have a made a vey very interesting point regarding the names and nomenclatures in Muslim socities and how it affects integration. I must confess that this a new perespective I have read, and be sure that I will use it elsewhere, without giving you any credit [ :) ] !!

    About the issue at hand, just read this one line in Zia’s blog, and I quote :

    “Hindrances to better Hindu-Muslim relations can easily be pared down to a set of familiar perceptions of the Muslim community”

    Just imagine the thought and belief behind this line. That all that is wrong with the situation of Muslims vis-a-vis other communities is simply perception. And by implication, that perception is wrong and the only way to improve situations is to change the perception, or be damned to live with the consequences.

    Absolutely no ocassion, whatsoever, for any inward looking in the Muslim society. Do you need to argue anymore with this kind of thought, or this kind of person?

    Christianity has been reformed over the centuries and the once powerful Church has now become just a symbol. Hinduism has reformed several times over and banished such things as sati, etc.

    Can anyone name even one thought in Muslim evoltion that has been an improvement over those postulated in 6th century Arabaia? That is the fundamental problem. That what was thought of in the deserts of Arabaia in 6th century A.D. is final and binding and non-negotiable. As long as this thought pervades, the issue of Muslims vs. others will remian. In India as primarily Hindu-Muslim issue but ascross the world as Muslim- civilisation issue.

    However, I disgaree with you on point. On you giving another 200 years for the Muslim race to survive, if they do not change.

    Prophet Muhammad framed the Hizri calender in 626 A.D. He had framed it only for 1400 years. That period expired in 2026 A.D. Just 17 years from now. As per legend ( and I may be wrong, and stand to be corrected) unless another prophet renews the calender, Muslims as they exist today will not survive.

    Regards,

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    A lot of BS gets written on these blogs under the name of secularism and indianness.

    All haters of India’s ancient wisdom need to either prove that they had better ideas to deal with the issues of those times or just keep quiet and read what scholars have to say about ancient writings.

    If you are trying to prove that Gita is junk, please be prepared to spend your entire lifetime studying it first. Lets take one book in each lifetime, study it and then ‘junk’ it !!!

    I’d be amazed if Bobby even knows sanskrit and can read the authentic version of these books in their language of origin. Translation changes a lot of the interpretation – Badrinath becomes Bobby !!

    [Reply]

  • Anil Kumar

    this si classic case of hiding behind big name to buy legitmiacy eyond the words could buy . here that name being paraded is of sen.
    I Can’t let Sen or anyone else think on my behalf. I am product of my own personal experience noone has hand-held me to draw the colcusion about my life experience. I do not give that right to even my father. I vividly remember s a kid in seventh standard I questioned my father couple of times. I had just moved from my village to nearby shanty town for better education . i was enrolled in govt high school. One thing I noticed there was three section in my class two sections for hindi medium students and one section for urdu studies. There used to be a routine verbal elangign match of course in kiddish manner where hindisection students used to defend India and urdu sectin students used to defend pakistan in cricket matches.
    Mind you I was a boor then had no idea of history or geography whatsover My world in village revolved around stealing mangoes from people’s garden, playing cricket with wooden hand-made bat and cork ball and in name of studies rote reading few tables and aiding my grandfather in reading of hsi religious text. My father had brought me to this little town to introduce me to real edcuation.
    I stupidly assumed those kids who were defending pakistan cricket team must be from pakistan. So one day i asked my father we have people form pakistan studying in my school. OBviously my father corrected me. I have mulled over that episode zillin times in my head.
    I have come to the conclusion that support of an intellectual of calibre of Sen for any team which plays better in a game be it pakistan or anyother team is oen things and support of a kid who most probabaly were as innocent as I was for a pakistan team is totally different.
    Thsoe kids were just like me oblivious to the vagars of history and geography yet they found in their heart to support pakistan in a cricket match. And this support can;t be equated to a fair minded intellectual’s support to a better playing team after all it’s a game.
    So it’s certain that those kids got their pakistan love from their elderswho again were nto a fair-minded intellectuals.. Few singula points of fair-mindedness even in the wake of chequered history aside majority people are driven by premal insticy fo supporting their own country and that’s hwo ti should be particuallry agaisnt couontry which has bleeded yoour country and continues to do so it becomes much more important.

    Now comethign about the larger question of whether there is a basis to the question mark over loyalty of muslim netizens of our country. I am sorry to say there is. When Jinnah saheb thundered “I will have India divided or India destroyed ” at the eve of dirct action in Kolkata he had made his intentions clear. At that moment support for JInnah, despite him sponsoring the worst riot India has seen despite him making his intentions clear, amongst Indian muslim was complete.

    Congress which has wiped Muslim contieuncy in previous election could nto win even single election . Now if someone wants to lie about it then he/she is welcoms but you can’t falsifiy the election results. That’s historical reaosn for doubts over loyalty.

    Now come to present day scenario. we have only muslim majority J/K and muslims there have ethnically purged their society from hindus. There goes another reason.

    Third is ISI cells terror blasts .again and again we find that the belief of security personnle that no foreingner can be succeeful in their nefarious desing unless thier is local support becomes true everytime. For some reason everytime their local support happens to be invariably muslim of India.

    All these ghings can’t be washed about by intellectual mumbo-jumbo. Social science is not a defintine science people can ignore oneaspect while highlight others and can come to different colcclusion but certain historical and present days facts can’t be sacrificed on the altar of argumentattion

    [Reply]

  • gopi thomas

    @Bobby@Anil

    Amartya Sen is a leftist who still believes in the dead God of Socialism. But he is free to speak his mind, so all of us.
    Bobby, I will not have an issue accepting Baichung Bhutia as an Indian. But I do have a problem, for example in my home state of Kerala, government takes initiative to teach Arabic in all schools; that retired Madrasa teachers are awarded government pension etc; while there iare no initiatives like these for Sanskrit. Obviously, the Government is doing these to please the vote bank. Unfortunately Muslism ask for these and are satisfied with these, rather than allocating, say, three professional colleges for them .
    Coming back to the “name” issue – it is a minor thing; but an important thing in assimilation. You go across Kerala and Tamil Nadu, you will see a lot of Santhosh Josephs or Dharmaraj Josephs or Vimala Kurien or Ammini Mathai, or Leela Jacob; to me as a Christian, I do not feel bad about these, rather I feel good about these.. Now you can take the argument why a Hindu Santhosh does not become Salaluddin. It is a thought. .
    So many new buildings have come up here, housing various developmental and charity houses organized by Muslims. It all has Arabic names (some al-mujuddin etc); and I and others have to ask my Muslim friends what this means –and they will tell me it is a Women tailoring Center, or a Children’s Center etc. When I ask them why theyn would not name the center in Malayalam or Hindi or English so the whole community knows about them, I never get an answer other than “we normally name like that”.

    I live in Kannur, in the northern part of Kerala. Muslims most probably are the the richest community, both in terms of land holdings and business. Educationally, they may be behind the majority community; however, far ahead of their northern satte counterparts. All the three communities live harmoniously until several youngsters were arrested in connection with Kasmiri terrorism; and it was reevaled that some of these boys went to pakisistan to get training from the famous Terror Technology Institutes there. This was a big shock to people – Christiaans, Hindus, and most of the Muslims -revelation that if Muslim boys from Kannur can be jihadists for Kashmir and for the larger cause of Umma, then what about Muslims from say UP? This has created walls and distances being formed; wehre there was none before.

    There is nothing crueler than twhen the majority group is made to feel like a helpless, rightless minority group in their country. The problem in Sri Lanka was that the minority Tamil (mostly Hindus) went on wanting and extarcting so much, that the majority Sinhalese started feeling like an abandoned minority in SriLAnka. We all know the bloodshed that resulted. Whatever justification the leftist intellectuals may provide, the never ending whining and screams for “more , more from government”, will craeate a trigger situation that we will not be able to control. As the middle class numbers increase, one real issue will be how much of tax payer money is spent on “welfare” . A similar war on “welfare” state happened in USA by tax payers who were fed up with the unjcontrolled social expenditures. The funds for various progranms are coming from the majority community.

    Unless Muslims disengage from the “Umma brotehrhood ” concept (that Qur’an would not allow, and moderates would not plead for because of the fear of religious leaders), the schism will continue. The concept of nation-state is an extremely difficult notion for most observant Muslims. Because of this, in the event of a war with Pakistan, they cannot fight a war on the Indian side. More over, they have to support the PAkistani army. And that is the dilemma.

    Just look around. In kerala, you will see many Hindu-Christian marriages; but the Christian-Muslim or Hindu-Muslim marriages will be less than 20 in a year. The intensity to be sepaarte and distinct, and to be a part of a group outside the physical boundaries is quite severe for Muslims. Hence the bridge building issues.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Thomas,

    “There is nothing crueler than twhen the majority group is made to feel like a helpless, rightless minority group in their country…”

    Can you please explain in what way do hindus feel like “helpless, rightless minority” group in India. Which right is being denied to them?

    Secondly, clearly when you speak of hindus you mean the upper caste hindus, because lower caste hindus have been “rightless and helpless” for many centuries now in this country.

    “…..As the middle class numbers increase, one real issue will be how much of tax payer money is spent on “welfare””

    Aah! so thats your problem! money being spent on social welfare….. The money that “patriotic” hard working professionals working in such intellectual power houses like software companies or other true patriots like our cricketers earn and the wealth that even more patriotic buisness leaders create (mostly upper caste hindus) are being spent on lazy, good for nothing, unpatriotic labourers and other jobless bums (mostly dalits and muslims) on their health and other “welfare”.

    “This was a big shock to people – Christiaans, Hindus, and most of the Muslims …… This has created walls and distances being formed; wehre there was none before.”

    Now I am really perplexed, when you already know that “most of the muslims” were shocked…then “how did the walls get created”???

    “Because of this, in the event of a war with Pakistan, they cannot fight a war on the Indian side. More over, they have to support the PAkistani army”

    Mr Thomas, nothing can be more cruel than what you are doing. You are accusing a whole community of being disloyal when a war is inflicted on India. I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

    [Reply]

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Mr. Bobby,
    Mr. Thomas should be ashamed of himself because he questions the loyalty of Muslims , and give reasons to back it up. Mind you, he never says anything against the Prophet himself or the Quran.

    But what about you Sir, who questions all the holy scriptures of Hinduism as junk? Who berates and derides everything that is Hindu? Should you also be ashamed of yourself or not ?

    Mr. Thomas is meerely making a political point on Muslim society today and not a case against the tenets of the religion itself. If you have the intellect, you will understand the vast difference between the two.

    You on the other hand is damning the entire Hindu religion. Who should be more ashamed, Sir?

    Would appreciate your reply.
    Regards,

    [Reply]

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Mr. Bobby,
    Rajeev makes a mistake of thinking you to be a Muslim. However, going by your name, I presume you are a Christian. And considering your forceful espousal of Dalits and the mistreatment they received over the centuries ( which incidentally is totally correct) , I also presume you are a a Christian convert from the Dalit society.

    Let me then quote to you a line from the blog of Zia above( incidentally a quote from Sen ).

    “The “‘guilt’ of Muslim kings need not be transferred to the 110 million Muslims” of today’s India.”

    This is reference to the atrocities committed by Aurangzeb, Ghori etc. I would say quite a sensible and reasonable proposition and present day Muslims should not be held hostage to the ills of four centuries earlier.

    By same yardstick, should also, the guilt of Hindu ancestors not be transferred on present day upper caste Hindus? Should you then not stop absuing Hindusim and all its relegeous teachings,?

    The yardstick that you so zealaously demand for Muslims and I say Christians too, should be applicable to Hindus too, don’t you think? The world has forgotten the bigotry of Church and the papacy during the middle ages, because present day Christians reject those. Present day Hinduism rejects caste discriminations ( indeed by law ).

    The moot point is, has present day Islam rejected the bigotry of middle ages Islam or is it treading the same path?

    And a confession : I am an upper caste Hindu. A Brahmin.

    Regards,

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Akhilesh,

    “Mr. Thomas should be ashamed of himself because he questions the loyalty of Muslims , and give reasons to back it up. …”

    Sorry I did not see any worthwhile arguments he made supporting his claim, maybe I missed it. Can you please point out to me those again?

    “But what about you Sir, who questions all the holy scriptures of Hinduism as junk? Should you also be ashamed of yourself or not ?”

    Firstly I said what i said in a specific context which was to counter Mr Thomas’s point about the need to respect and be proud of the Upanishads and the Gita etc to be a good Indian.

    Secondly, maybe we think differently, but I do not think its necessary to respect “ideas”, therefore I do not think I have any reason to be ashamed about my views on the hindu scriptures.

    By the way my views are the same about pretty much all religious scriptures. Its just that I do not know much about what christianity and Islam say in the same detail as I know hinduism.

    But at the same time, I do not think that people who do believe in god give too much importance to it, at least not literally. So I don’t judge the character of people by whether they are hindus or muslims or atheists. Being a Hindu is not a “moral negative” nor is being a muslim, and similarly I don’t think being an atheist is a “moral plus point”

    While this is not important, I am not a Christian, I belong to a malayali hindu (upper caste) family, most of whom are reasonably devout. My name is what it is for some accidental and irrelevant reasons, nothing to do with my religion. I am an atheist.

    “By same yardstick, should also, the guilt of Hindu ancestors not be transferred on present day upper caste Hindus?…”

    Can you please point out to me when I have “transfered the guilt” on present day caste hindus?

    It is a fact that even “today” not just 1000 years back, the Dalits are having a bad deal in this country and by our society. Ours is a very unequal and unjust society. This is a fact that only blind or completely biased people would disagee with.

    The concentration of power is in the hands of very few people, who overwhelmingly belong to few upper castes. There is almost zero representation of Dalits in any power structure and this is due to a systematic and deliberate attempt to keep the status quo. A very important reason behind this is precisely the Hindu belief in the caste system.

    Of course thanks to our democracy this is changing at least in the political spheres. Though there is stiff resistance to any change in the economic and other power structures which are basically undemocratic.

    I would like to point out some statistics which I found in a very nice article that I came across.

    http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/27220957/When-will-the-BrahminBania-he.html

    One should ask why this is the case, and the answers are of course all well known, unless one is blind

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Gopi Thomas,
    Just a point. Mr Sen seems to be recanting at least some of his leftist beliefs if some of his comments in a recent Outlook interview to Vinod Mehta is a guide.
    I think you will see a more “nuanced” view of secularism from Mr Sen soon; perhaps by the time his next book comes out.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Gopi Thomas (and fellow Hindu Bigot, SKS who first mentioned it),
    Two things.
    1. Let’s first get the “Tebbit test” out of the way. I am sure you know this; Norman Tebbit, a conservative MP in UK first proposed this test in England .. do the Indian and Pakistani supporters in England support the England cricket team when they play India or Pakistan…as a measure of loyalty to their adopted country. Tebbit has very little support in England. Let’s move on.

    2. In the Kargil battle, JK Light Infantry (with a majority of Muslims) faught valiantly and faught well against the Pakistanis. The battle cry from both sides was “Allah u Akbar”. Can we please refrain from questioning even if only seemingly, the patriotism of our men in uniform?

    @Gopi Thomas, thanks for the Kerala perspective. You write from the heart, and that is a good thing.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Dear Ashish
    Of all the reasons one could reasonably bring against the Tebbit test, his lack of support in England is certainly not the most appropriate.

    Leaving the Tebbit test aside for a minute, England’s quest for multiculturalism has reached ridiculous limits now. Beginning from calls for avoiding public display of the flag by SECULAR Government Institutions (such as Metro Police ) and many times by ordinary citizens also, there have been calls to redesign the flag to represent the multicultural composition of their society.
    An interesting response to these demands was “The United Kingdom is not a firm which changes its corporate branding each time the management alters”. While the Liberals wax lyrical on the virtues of multiculturalism and Post-Nationalism, a virulently extremist backlash is beginning to emerge there in form of support for parties like BNP.

    While we can argue that supporting cricket team and being against national flag are not comparable, we would be kidding ourselves if we think support for cricket team is the only manifestation of underlying sentiments.

    In any case, Tebbit’s test in Indian context does not apply. When we talk about UK, we were talking about people who were earlier Indians or Pakistanis, at the most 2-3 generation before. Here in India, we are not talking about immigrants or of people who were citizens of other countries even 10-15 generations ago. On the contrary, we never miss an opportunity to claim that Hindus and Muslims have lived in harmony for centuries until British divided us and then Babri and Gujarat happened.

    Secondly, you don’t support the national team is absolutely fine, you can also be a fan of Javed Miandad for his cricketing skills, for his fighting instinct and admire his last ball six for nerves of steel he showed. But to rejoice and celebrate as a community (yes even if it is the famous tiny minority) a Pakistani victory over India for the simple reason that they are your co-religionists is different, and to pretend it is not the religion but something else, is a belief, I for one, find impossible to submit to.

    Whether celebrations occur when Indians lose to Pakistan or not, is not the issue. Let us just say, they don’t, or at any rate, those who do, are negligible in numbers. What is being attempted in these posts is a clever ploy, one the one hand, claim that this hardly happens and simultaneously question, what is wrong even if it did and that in a nutshell is the ISO 9000 of this blog.

    Of course, none of this needs any discussion, once we conclude that ‘nation’ or “nation-states” are outdated concepts and need to be replaced by ?? ? what

    On TEBBIT, a old but interesting news article can be found at (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055221.ece).

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    And BTW, you have the last word, as Always

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    I am not saying that the 9/11 attackers were following the Gita, nor am I saying that the Manhattan project was because of Oppenheimer’s belief in the Gita.

    The point I was making is that one of the key messages of Krishna to Arjuna as given in the Gita is to do ones duty as an offering to God, and not think of the consequences. Do not feel sorrow for the people you are about to kill, because the act of killing and the act of “being killed” are both being done by Krishna (God).

    If you read the content of the manuals which the 9/11 attackers were carrying you will find a very SIMILAR outlook and justification for the act. Some parts of these manuals were published in newspapers soon after september 11.

    This does not mean that they were followers of the Gita, but only this much that any religious text can be twisted and interpreted as one wants to do.

    About the Manhattan project, Oppenheimer has himself revealed the influence of Gita’s message of doing “nishkaam karma” in playing his role in the project silently thinking of this as his “Karma”, which helped him keep any “moral thoughts” about the consequences of his actions, which he knew very well about, at bay.

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @Bobby

    U are right in the sense anybody can have their own interpretation to justify their acts.

    The epic Mahabharatha batttle was fought in Kurukshetra with two armies facing each other. At the end of each day of the war, the opposing parties will mingle and have drinks and ho’dovres. They will even talk about what will be the formation tomorrow, and who will lead it. Both partis will show their respect for the fallen on either side..

    The 9/11 terrorists were not fighting an army. They were killing innocents who did not do anything to anybody.

    I do agree that they were believers in their cause – obtaining 77 virgins, or imposition of Sharia worldwide, or the renaissance of ISlam, or the destruction of Zionist America or whatever. However, the twisting and interpretation was done not by them, but by their religious leaders. They were instruments who were indoctrinated, through Mosques calling for attack the infidel. However, these manipulators forgot one of the axioms of the Prophet – that you prepare for the Jehad against the”well defined” enemy after you have physically and militarily prepared. for the Jehad, that you do not go for a “losing” jehad..If you cannot, you do Hijra (as the Prophet himself haad done) { FYI, the only Hijra in the 20th century happened in early 1920s, when Muslism from north India travelled to Afhganistan (Dar Al ISlam) to settle. Just imagine, what would have been the condition of Indian Muslims if all heeded to that call for Hijra!} .

    Mahabharath has several gems about the use of force, awareness or lack of awareness of ones own of force, occasion to discuss dharma/adharma and taking action..such as “nese balasyedi chare da dharmam’, “kshamanam npoopam nithyam neecha paribhavejjana; hastiyanta gajasyeva sira everu rurakshati” etc.. That is for another blog and abnother day.

    However, I hope, Bobby is not shunting off 9/11 as a “once” act by a group of young men who had twisted interpretation of their Holy Book. This is not a localized act done by a few “misguided” people. The twisting of Qu’ran is happening on a very broad scale across geographies, a muslim in kannur in Kerala is taking the cause for a mulsim in a far away land he has not even imagined, and creating havoc from Somalia to Pakistan to India. Pakistan is self immolating in front of us. So much for religion as a glue in the “Land of the Pure”. Many mullahs and maulavis all across the world are indoctrinating impressionable minds to commit murder and kill the innocent.

    Sometimes I think about the 15 Saudi arabian men who hijacked the plane to tteh win towers. In a country that prohibits dance, music, movie, books — what does a young man do for thrill? Especially if the young men were from rich families (so much for the theory that poverty breeds terrorism!), and many of them western educated and experienced in the western freedoms. .They get high on riding a palne through a building!

    I also wonder about why there are so few Muslim writers in India (regional languages or English). Why only 800 titles were published in Arabic language in the last 40 years! (yes, it is true). A language spoken by 1 billion people producing only 20-25 books in a year! Why a book becomes a best seller in Arabic language if only 3000 copies are sold? Is there something in the Holy Book or Maadrasa education that snatches creativity away? That destroys the zest for learning? And is this “in developed” resistance to creativity and acquisition of knowledge preparing many minds for an easy acceptance transforming themselves as easy victims to tself immolate and kill others as a clarion call for a glorious islamic future? I hope some Sociologists will study this.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    “I do agree that they were believers in their cause – obtaining 77 virgins, or imposition of Sharia worldwide, or the renaissance of ISlam, or the destruction of Zionist America or whatever…”

    No sir, thats precisely what I was trying to refute. My point was that the problem is not what is or is not written in the Quran, since equally ugly things can be pointed in almost all religious books. They just provide a tool to further instigate people. Its just a symbol.

    The reasons given by Bin-Laden for his anger against the west has always been consistent. A primary reason being his demanding that US forces get out of what he considers “holy land” — Saudi-Arabia.

    There always has been a undercurrent of anger in Arab world against the US and the west, primarily because there is a feeling in that part of the world that the US imposes/supports non-democratic governments in this part of the world so as to maintain control over natural resources, for obvious strategic reasons.

    This fact has been admitted to be true (by which I mean , both the perception as well as the reasons behind the perception) by the US government itself, as “declassified US documents” from as far as the 1950’s show.

    It is this anger which builds into resistance. Usually in all such cases the first resistance is always secular. Like in Palestine, and when they are crushed, the space is occupied by religious fanatics, which by the way (not to forget) were created by the US.

    The main reasons as usual always belong to “this world”.

    No one is saying that there is no Islamic fundametalism, which is a product of the post cold war era, for obvious “real world” reasons.

    Looking for solutions in first-century books for real world problems of the 21st century is a stupid way of going about solving the problem.

    “Why only 800 titles were published in Arabic language in the last 40 years!…”

    Thats a very stupid thing to spend too much time “wondering” on, I mean if you knew the percentage of educated muslims, you would get the answer.

    Though I did not get what the point was. In case its as you “wondered aloud”

    “Is there something in the Holy Book”

    The answer is NO. Thats because historically Islamic civilization has immense contribution to almost all fields from mathematics to literature.

    “Maadrasa education that snatches creativity away?”
    thats possibly true, as much as it would be for Gurukul shikshas.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    “The reasons given by Bin-Laden for his anger against the west has always been consistent. A primary reason being his demanding that US forces get out of what he considers “holy land” — Saudi-Arabia. ”

    I this was his grouse then he should have attacked Saudi Arabia and forced it govt. to order US troops out of KSA. You muslims have your own issues but you go around all over the world killing innocents blaming them for your own mistakes.

    Sam Reply:

    Osama’s family has migrated from Yemen to Saudi arabia.
    His dad moved to KSA.

    So Osama is not even an original saudi.
    Why is he telling what Saudi’s should do ?

    If he is going to ask from USA to leave KSA, then he should also ask Muslims/arabs to vacate Mecca/Medinah.

    It is well known that arabs migrated from current day Yemen in about 4-6 centuries.
    Before that most of the original inhabitants of Mecca/Medinah were Jewish/Christian and other people.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    You miss one very important point. Can you give me examples of when Hindus have quoted Krishna and gone on either war or suicide missions? You can quote examples over centuries. Essentially, all hindus are very clear —- war is not a good example to follow from Mahabharata. Therefore there is no misinterpretation and no lure of anything. Second – you again and again blame everything on post cold war era when on numerous occassions, you have been pointed out to examples of islamic wars, communal riots started by muslims in history. Please refer some of the earlier posts. To that your retort is that why should past wars and blunders and killing of muslims be reason to penalize current muslims. I agree to the reasoning but it does not answer how cold war had anything to do with centuries of religious killings. Please do understand that what I am pointing out is not that islam or muslims are bad, but perhaps that educated folks like you and some others who post here should take the initiative to properly educate the muslims on islam and its good meaning. Education will help solve a lot of issues. On a different note, sometimes one gets the feeling that you argue for the sake of arguing and must admit that you do have the skill and stamina to keep doing this:)

    Have fun!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    My point was that the Islamic terrorism we see in modern times has a very political origin. I always talk of present times.

    Now If we are talking of Islamic wars of middle ages, we should do so in an honest manner. There were all sorts of wars during those periods, not just Islamic. Mongols like Ghengiz Khan were not Muslims, nor were the crusaders.

    Moreover If you read Indian history through the eyes of proper historians not the “Arun Shourie types”, then you will see that even Hindu kings when they conquered other hindu kingdoms, did destroy temples of the corresponding local deities. This was very common in those times. So please lets cut all the BS talk regarding “past Islamic crimes”…..lets not go there, especially since there are far too many skeletons in our cupboard.

    “but perhaps that educated folks like you and some others who post here should take the initiative to properly educate the muslims on islam and its good meaning…”

    I dont take myself so seriously. I am under no illusions as to the moral value of our discussions here, which is exactly “zero”.

    “On a different note, sometimes one gets the feeling that you argue for the sake of arguing ”

    We are all engaged in these discussions only for “intellectual (or so we think)recreation”. Thats true as much for me as it’s for you. I argue for what I think is right, as I hope you do too. However I know very well that I am not arguing to “change the world”. If that was the mission, this blog is not the forum

    “and must admit that you do have the skill and stamina to keep doing this:)

    Have fun!”

    Thanks and yes I do have fun commenting here!

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    …” Islamic terrorism we see in modern times has a very political origin. I always talk of present times.”"

    Even in the past it has had politico-religious angles, always has…..Second, the problem is that when you do not look at all data and only present times then you are not able to identify the problem, resulting in wrong diagnosis and hence the solutions will likely be way off too.

    “I dont take myself so seriously….”

    That makes sense. Even we do we take you very seriously::))) . But perhaps you should try to take it seriously…..

    Good to know that your enjoy posting here!!

    Ashish Reply:

    @SkS,
    No quarrel with all that you say. I don’t enjoy the spectacle of green flags waving every time Pakistanis hit a six against the Indian team, either.
    Just that, it is probably a symptom rather than the disease. And, I have seen typical reaction when you bring it up, is: “what a trivial thing to worry about”.
    Transnational identity is, yes, an issue. But, there are more serious manifestations which are also less easy to trivialize .. “oh, it’s just a silly game”.
    I understand the SOP of this blog as well; so, don’t react to attempts at trivializing the debate. We are not fighting to have Muslims wear the Tilak or wear sindoor or whatever.. which are the kind of “big concessions” that are offered up as their willingly giving up eating beef in many states.. or, priceless comments like “I have seen Hindu women also cover their face in Delhi metros with aanchal”..
    Just my 2 cents.. staying focused on a bunch of 3-4 key issues will bring some sanity to the proceeding (that’s the power of Hope!)

    Akhil Reply:

    Thomas, now dont waste your time in proving how indian muslims are “different” from the other communities or how close christians are to hiindus. What you are spreading is just false examples.!!

    [Reply]

    Akhil Reply:

    By the way Thomas, tell me what dress christian bride wears and muslim bride wears while marriage and what are the respective traditions followed in marriage. If you compare you will realise that who is integrated more in India. This is small trivial example, i can give you zillion more but for me this is sooo stupid (Anyway u will not see what u dont wanna see )

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Frankly speaking I find concept of Prophethood, judgement day, heaven (with 72 hooris) and hell all tribal mumbo jumbo.

    I fail to understand why muslims like Zia and Bobby can’t see problems with themselves.

    Muslims have problems with every religion.
    1. They consider hindus pagan and heaten so they don’t respect anything hindu (example attitude of Bobby Darling).
    2. They consider other sects of Islam as heretics and keep killing each other.
    3. They are killing christians all over the world waving pages of Quran. These muslims have occupied christian church Hagia Sophia in Turkey and converted it into mosque.
    4. They have occupied Jewish temple at jerusalem. Mohammad the idiot came up with ‘Back of donkey trip to heaven” story and these arabic tribals occupied temple mount. The muslim hatred for Jews even makes hitler look like saint.
    5. They kill Bahais because they are considered pagans.
    6. The sikhs were slaughtered in millions because they were pagans.

    The muslim mind is full of garbage and that is what Zia and Bobby should concentrate on.

    It is true that there are terrorists from other religions but no one wave pages of their holy books to justify their acts unlike muslims who quote from Quran and cut the head of innocents.

    The biggest danger to world peace is Islam and it should be tamed at any cost.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Reply:

    Obviously Rajeev doesn not know that there is a book called MAHABHARATA which is fulll of teaching of voilence & terror – in which Arjuna tells KILL , KILL
    Read your own books first and dont rely on ur limited knowledge and hate – There is more preaching of voilence in Mahabharata than in the Quran –
    Now i know u will call it a war of right over the wrong and Jehad a terror – It is ur choice -
    What about Draupadi – Was she enjoying the company of FIVE HUSBANDS at a time or was she forced into religious prostitution – Oh my God ! The DEVADASIS are there to serve the Stone Idol gods or the lustful pujari himself

    What a good example of tolerence of hindus

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ahmad,
    Do you know no hindu considers Mahabharata as guide to good life? Most of the north Indian avoid mention of Mahabharata especially in the morning because to most of them it represents the ills of society.

    Now come to Quran, the handbook of terrorists and people like you, It is taken as guide to good life by most fanatics like you.

    No hindu women want to become like draupadi but most muslim men want to be like mohammad who was child rapist.

    That is the real difference between you and me. The hindus are allowed to disagree with their holy books but you people who are prisoner of arab imperialism can not do so.

    By the way why are Ahmediyas treated as non-muslims?

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Ahmed and Rajeev,
    Please write extended replies. It’s quite humorous, your argument as to how your respective faiths are emblems of peace. Not a bad advertisement for your brand. Keep it coming.
    Cheers!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Akash,
    I have no desire to present my faith as emblem of peace. Everyone knows that semitic religions are everything but peace.

    suparna Reply:

    true.. we never keep mahabharat at our homes..

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Dear Mr. Ahmed
     
    This statement (which is more like your ‘belief’) that Mahabharata is full of Killing and Terror and Koran does not compare, apart from being illustrative of the “denial syndrome” also explains the “sense of moral license” that accompanies every terror attack. Aware of its futility, I will nevertheless explain the “difference”, and if ‘reason’ had even an infinitesimal chance, to as much as caress the citadels of ‘those beliefs’, one might understand the “difference”, although holding your breath for that would be foolish idea. To start with, it is Bhagvad Geeta, a part of Mahabharat, which you are talking about. And It was Krishna who was telling ‘Arjun’ to KILL-KILL, rather than ‘Arjun’ shouting KILL KILL. Now why did Krishna say KILL-KILL to Arjuna?
     
    The context was a war between two royal factions (cousins to each other) and it was in the battlefield, when Arjuna, seeing his relatives and teachers arrayed against him on the other side, found his heart, mind and body refusing to fight with his relatives and teachers. He told Krishna, his chariot driver, that he would prefer to be slayed, unarmed; by the sons of Dhritarashtra (cousins who were waiting on the other side) rather than slay his relatives and opponents. Now why did the matter reach the battlefield and what all was offered to achieve peace and avoid war is not something I want to elaborate here, because irrespective of all that, at the end of the day, the two factions were facing each other in a battlefield.
    Now Krishna, who is considered by Hindus to be a human form of the “supreme one”, (You of course know this is wrong, let us just say he was an ordinary king worshipped as “GOD’, by foolish Hindus, including Arjun), could have simply said permission to fight is given to those who have been ‘wronged’, and on hearing this Arjuna should have risen and started slaying. But tough luck Krishna Jee, for Arjun to fight and kill, ‘having been wronged’ was just not enough.
     
    Krishna jee could also have said see, “I am the God, and your relatives are not listening (or believing) to me, isn’t that enough for you to fight and kill your relatives. I told you don’t chose your fathers and brother for friends if they take pleasure in not obeying me. If your relatives are dearer to you, than me or obeying my order then wait and see what I do to you”. Well Krishna, being the smart Alec he has, knew that these reasons will not be adequate for Arjuna to Kill, so he came up with a different theory, saying:
    ‘SOUL is immortal, imperishable, eternal, indestructible and infinite etc. and when you think you killed someone, you are wrong. So go now and KILL-KILL’. You must be wondering why can’t a man fight when ordered by someone he believed to be God and what kind of contrivances God had employ for getting Arjuna to obey him.
     
    Well this Indestructible Soul theory was kind of beginning to work on Arjun, but even now he was not fully convinced that he should pick up his weapons and start KILL- KILL. Now, at this stage Krishna could have thrown in some ‘goodies’ saying; “fight as I say and, whether you kill or are killed (of course just the body not the SOUL), the deal is that you would be taken into Paradise with all the attendant luxuries”. But even this was not enough for Arjun.
     
    So, Krishna jee came up another theory saying: “your concern is with work (meaning fight) only, but not with the fruit (no Paradise!). Let not the fruit be your motive for work; Be detached to the outcome, be the same in success or failure. To Work with desire of fruit is almost despicable”
     
    And voila, Arjun jee is convinced now, he is ready to KILL-KILL, no fruits, no paradise.
    WEIRD, this guy did not want to fight: (i) because he had been wronged, (ii) because his God ordered him (iii) because his opponents disobeyed his God and the worst of all, (iv) not even for going to Paradise.
    I just fail to understand why did he have to go into all that Mumbo-Jumbo, couldn’t he just pick up the weapon and fight, if for nothing at least for Heaven’s sake. Useless Fellow don’t you agree Mr Ahmed

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    The jist of the Gita is Krishna’s message to Arjuna : When you do any “action” do it as an “act of offering” to me, don’t think of the consequences. Everything comes out of me……

    This is very similar to the philosophy guiding the atackers of 9/11. One can easily imaging circumstances where it could be used negatively. In fact it did influence Oppenheimer a lot during the Manhattan project, and we all know what destructive purpose it was for……

    The point is everything depends on interpretation. The Gita has been interpreted very beautifully by Mahatma Gandhi as a allegory to a human beings confused mind. The battlefield is the mind of the person. Arjuna is the confused person, while God is the “good sense” speaking from within him. This is very similar to the “Inner Jihad” that Muslims speak of.

    Its interesting how similar, religious messages are. Given this interpretation, the Gita becomes a very beautiful message indeed.

    Amit Reply:

    Ahmed,
    What’s wrong with a woman having 5 husbands? And, devdasis are not part of a pan-Hindu custom. Actually, what’s wrong with lust per se?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Dear Amartya Haq (or is it Zia Sen?),

    1. Hindus are so intolerant and and insensitive of the concerns of other religions. What are you? Hindu or a Muslim? Would it be possible for the true Zia Haq/ Amartya Sen to stand up?

    2. For seventy years after the event, you remember the death of Kader Khan, a poor Muslim daily-wager in a “largely Hindu locality” in Dacca. How many Hindus are left in the same neighbourhood in Dacca? And, not a word about those who dies in Calcutta or Noakhali or elsewhere in East Pakistan. They do not merit your compassion, because they were Hindus. Alright, we will await a Muslim Indian matching your stature to acknowledge and mourn their deaths. As we will await public demonstrations from Jamait i Ulema-i-Hind in support of the plight of Kashmiri Hindus. Or Omar Abdullah paying some attention to ensuring the right of safe repatriation to them.

    3. Indians have been welcoming of all races (the only country where even Jews, who have been persecuted everywhere, have always been welcome); no thanks to the dominant religious group in India through the centuries: indeed!

    4. Sure, the sins of the Muslim emperors need not be revisited on the present generation Muslims. Let me see some acknowledgement of those sins from mainstream Muslims.

    5. Mr Sen (since it seems to be Amartya all the way): please explain why you fail to talk about the plight of Bangladeshi Hindus when you meet your friends (the PM of Bangladesh for instance).

    6. Understand that the experience of living as a Hindu in a Muslim majority country (and no, I am not even counting the Petro-dollar countries) is far more unpleasant than living as a Muslim in India. I know, I have that experience. Do you know that if you are a Bumiputra (means a Muslim, even if converted yesterday) in Malaysia, education for your children is free, you get government loans cheaper, government contracts are not awarded to any company without a significant “Bumi” ownership?
    Why is that argument relevant? It is relevant because, here’s a supposed democratic country with a 58% Muslim population which is using public money to promote conversion. Within 20 yards of the most important Hindu temple in Penang (Malaysia), there is a butcher’s shop- selling beef. Show me one place in Delhi’s old city where we have a shop selling pork. But, we are the intolerant Brahminical, supremacist Hindus.
    Don’t blame us for thinking that Muslims claim majority privileges/ even adopt triumphalist postures when in majority and minority privileges when in minority.

    7. Mr Sen, how convenient to quote Sri Aurobindo from his thoughts dating back to 1910 when his view were just being formed and he was still a journalist. Do you want me to quote from his later “thoughts”? Okay, just one, just to show that selective quoting that goes on in the name of building an argument:
    “one day the Hindus may have fight the Muslims and they must prepare for it. Hindu-Muslim unity should not mean the subjection of the Hindus. Every time the mildness of the Hindu has given way. The best solution would be to allow the Hindus to organize themselves and the Hindu-Muslim unity would take care of itself, it would automatically solve the problem. Otherwise we are lulled into a false sense of satisfaction that we have solved a difficult problem when in fact we have only shelved it.”
    Frankly, Mr. Sen, this is more “right-wing”/ reactionary than even my position ;-)

    Being a Bengali “bhadralok”, I am quite aware of this “Gurudev has said, hence it must be true”(as Tagore is called by adoring Bengalis, myself included) logic. Your essay is a two times “Gurudev….. ” logic.
    Aurobindo has said –> Amartya Sen hence said —> thereby Zia Haq makes a point.
    Now, let’s remove the middle-man/ interpreter of maladies namely, Mr Sen. Start building your logic from this paragraph, also said by Aurobindo:
    “You can live amicably with a religion whose principle is toleration. But how is it possible to live peacefully with a religion whose principle is “I will not tolerate you”? How are you going to have unity with these people? Certainly Hindu-Muslim unity cannot be arrived at on the basis that the Muslims will go on converting Hindus while the Hindus shall not convert any Mahomedan. You can’t build unity on such a basis. Perhaps the only way of making the Mahomedans harmless is to make them lose their fanatic faith in their religion….”

    Keep shooting the breeze, Mr Haq. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

    [Reply]

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Ashish,
    Kudos to you on such a well resoned argument. I must compliment you for the very well researched counters that you have posed to both the leftist Mr. Sen and the dubious Mr. Haq. The spurious and inflamatory arguments build by Zia needed to be demolished here and now – and you have done a commendable job.

    When I first started reading Zia, I was of the hope that he is one writer who will loom at both sides of the arguments dispassionately and presenty a hitherto non-present balaned view.

    I must say, that this post of his has dissappointed me the most. An educated journalist, working and writing in a mainstream paper as HT and with an an attitude that he potrays – dare I say that even some of the Mullas would sound more reasonable.

    Just read this line from his blog :

    ““Hindrances to better Hindu-Muslim relations can easily be pared down to a set of familiar perceptions of the Muslim community”

    This one line alone exemplifies his total thought and philosphy.

    And as always, Zia will never respond to any well structured critique of his – but continue to write propoganda in blog after blog.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Akhilesh, thanks. The real “love-mail” will start now. You know those that are posted by non-”Hindu-bigots”.

    That is not a new line of argument. Mr Zia is nothing if not consistent.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    “Hindus are so intolerant and and insensitive of the concerns of other religions….”

    Not Hindus, hindutva supporting morons are…..and that was what was said clearly in the post.

    Nobody is saying anything negative about Hindus or Indians, the attempt of honest and concerned Indians like Dr Sen is to point out the flaws in our society so that one can correct them.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Please Bobby, now go ahead and further qualify that statement as “Hindutva as interpreted by left-wing hindu groups like VHP and Bajrang Dal etc.”.
    You are fighting hard to prove that a small minority of non-religious ideology driven fanatics who call themselves hindus are actually wrong. The problem is that, no one disagrees with your proposition !
    You are also desperately trying to prove that Dalits were and are being discriminated against. Again, no one disagrees with your proposition !

    But junking all hindu thought for these reasons is quite immature, especially because you dont have a frame of reference for two reasons – I have never heard about a ‘christian thought’ or an ‘islamic thought’ and neither have you read about these religions in any detail (based on what you have mentioned).

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    I agree what I said regarding my opinions about hindu religious scriptures has nothing to do with the post. Actually that was said only in the context of Thomas arguing that one needs to respect these texts if one has to be called an Indian.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby
    I was looking for a suitable post to waste your time with after you wasted mine with that Brahmin-bania link on Livemint.
    Here you go:
    http://www.fakingnews.com/2009/09/hindu-muslim-kids-clash-in-miraj-over-poster-of-tom-jerry/

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    It was not a waste of time for me at all. I found your site both entertaining and some of the articles very creative and original. Thanks for the link.

    Ashish Reply:

    Lest anyone thinks otherwise, I am NOT Pagal Patrakar of Faking News.. just an admirer. Wish I could write like him.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @sana
    your talk of of secularism and “we are one” type , is an open demonstration of the modern Muslim attitude of playing double standards. as you say that Jihad is not a physical fight but a fight within , let me suggest upon that , that you better read your Islamic scriptures carefully and you will find the former theory of Jihad to be the only and the true one. out of curiosity once I watched an Islamic channel in which they mentioned the concept of Jihad and believe me their , literally justified Islamic terrorism as Jihad. do you think these Mullahs on the TV are lying?? actually they are not. so first make rectifications within yourself before preaching others of peace

    Sam Reply:

    Complete Infidels Guide to Islam

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596981040?ie=UTF8&tag=robertspencer-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1596981040

    “Governing officials and media spokesmen may ignore Spencer’s warnings, but they do so at their own risk, because Islamic jihadists are not ignoring what’s in the Koran…” — G Wilders.

    Sana Reply:

    So I came back to this after a week…..and saw an eternity of replies, which I do not have the time to read as I’ve got a kazillion other things to do right now I’m sorry, you guys have your views as I have mine…you’re more than welcome to keep yours.

    But I would like to leave a little excerpt from the Quran:

    Chapter 109:
    Say O Muhammad to the disbelievers: ‘ I worship not that which you worship. Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion’

    I do read my Islamic scriptures…thanks.

    I’m not going to return to this again, so you don’t need to bother replying.

    Sana Reply:

    So I’ve read the blog entry….skimmed through the replies….and feel like 10 000 issues have been raised and need to be addressed, so this may seem like a sort of rant/ramble. Anyways, moving on…

    Mr. Thomas, the world for the Muslims does NOT start when Prophet Muhammad was born….but when Allah(swt) created the universe and Adam & Eve. We believe that since the Creation Allah has been sending down prophets to different communities in different eras to help them see the truth. Prophets such as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many many more, finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon all of them).
    We had more than 100,000 prophets, Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) being among the last of them.
    I do not have any knowledge of the Hindu scripts, nor much of scripts of other faiths, therefore will not mention them.

    There may be many terrorists that are Muslim, creating havoc around the world, but that does not necessarily mean that that is what is accepted in Islam. The only kind of killing that is accepted in Islam is that of which is in self defense. All those suicide bombers? They’re committing a grave sin. Jihad is not physical fighting, it is defending your beliefs, just as I am doing now. It is also wrong to force someone’s beliefs on the other. For example, I can explain all about Islam to you, in hopes that you would accept it., but if you don’t that’s fine…that’s your decision, my responsibility was getting the message to you, if you choose not to accept it, that’s fine with me. You’ve got a right to your beliefs as I have mine.

    I understand your call to make an Indian nation, but all that can be done by keeping religion aside.
    Do you know why I am proud to be an Indian? Because of all the diverse cultures that all exist in one place, cultures that are not really related to religion at all. This one country has so many different languages and each has a culture affiliated to it. I am proud because I can connect with any Indian around the world regardless of which area we are from. I am proud because I can learn so many different things about my country, which I believe no other nation has.

    When you say you have yet to see a Muslim who has an Indian affiliated name, what is and Indian affiliated name? I personally love the fact that there exists a country where you have names from so many different roots, yet at the same time we’re still all the same. All the Priyankas and Sunils, Johns and Suzies, Kulwinders and Parmeets, Salmans and Nooras. They show where our roots are from yet also show us how we’re all integrated together.

    Yes I will admit there is a sect of people that like to be more affiliated with their religions than their cultures, but so what? These people exist all around the world! You can’t expect everyone to have the same viewpoint.

    Mr. Akhliesh, the Hijri Calendar is now 1430 years old. Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not set a date for the end of the world, no one knows when Judgment Day will arrive, we only know of a period of events that will tell us that we are getting closer and closer to that day.

    Now back to Mr. Thomas, I understand what you’re saying about establishments using Arabic for their names, such as that women’s tailoring center you had mentioned. I don’t really know what you’re implying, but not everyone in India understands Hindi, believe me, there have been many a time where I’ve come across people who only know Telugu or Kannada or whatever other language. Would you question them as well? I understand, Arabic is not a language of India, but Muslims regard it as a sacred language, those establishments could translate all those names into English, Hindi, whatever, but if they feel like they’re closer to their religion by naming it otherwise, who are we to stop them?

    At the end of the day, all I’m trying to say is, to all the Indians, be it Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and all the others, do we HAVE to bring religion into this? Whenever this issue was created, however many hundred years ago, think about now. We NEED to learn that not everyone is going to agree with you, everyone has their own beliefs, I’m not asking you to change your own, but respects the others’ beliefs. I am not attacking any sect or religion, just defending my own and asking for harmony. It’s really not that hard.

    I have friends who are of many different religions, yet we get along just fine with each other, we have our different beliefs, we discuss them from time to time, yet never so much so that it gets into an argument, and we respect the fact that we believe in different things.

    If we can do it, so can the rest of the world.

    In the time it took me to write this, there have been many more comments, which I am not going to bother to read(not yet anyway) because I need to get back to my life right now.

    Goodbye.

    Rajeev Reply:

    so the gist of everything is that everyone else need to reform except muslims.

    What kind of shithole mentality these people have?

    Bobby like people say that modern day muslims should not be held accountable for crimes of muslim rulers (the same muslims consider Babar and Aurangzeb heroes) but can they tell us why muslims are rioting in Sangli and other towns of maharashtra.

    These muslims are killing hindus to save the honour of Afzal khan whom shivaji killed. So much for their NO LOVE for muslim invaders.

    The muslims are a community who are master at collective lying. They can get away with every crime including 9/11, 26/11 with this unique gift of doublespeak.

    It is time of foolish so-called secular hindus to see the reality else they will be circumcised by liberal muslims like Bobby and Zia when muslims turn into majority.

    I consider Quran to be the most hateful book in the history of humanity and god willing it will be banned one day.

    Sana Reply:

    It seems to me that you have filtered my post sir.

    Did I say everyone but the Muslims need to be reformed? Did I not say that Islam condemns people who commit suicide, people who kill innocent people for no reason? I said the only kind of killing that is allowed in Islam is one that is done in self defense.

    I am NOT defending those Muslims, I am defending the idea of Islam, which has become very convoluted thanks to these suicide bombers and terrorists.

    I am saying more or less everyone needs to reform in order to accept the other.

    And I would really appreciate it if you all could put your argument forward without having to bad-mouth anyone or any religion or culture, thank you.

    Indian Reply:

    Sana,

    YOur thoughts are appreciated. What most non-muslims find difficult to accept is that the muslims keep preaching them about what the real meaning of islam is. Just as you have explained what the meaning of islam is above, it would be really nice for people like you to educate the muslims first. After all, people misinterpreting islam (if it is indeed misinterpretation as pointed by you) are essentially muslims and and it is they who are misguided. Frankly you would not care about what bible says or geeta says if it does not affect you. Likewise, non-muslims would not really care what quran has to say if it does not affect them. But the fact is that it does affect them. This is the problem.

    Rajeev Reply:

    How about issuing a fatwa declaring all hard and soft terrorists as non-muslims and impose strict condition on them to return to Islam? Also declare families of such terrorists as non-muslims and deny them right to enter mosque, burial and any interaction with muslim community.

    Till you do that there is no point shouting “Islam means peace” (which it does not..it means submission to arabic imperialism).

    Ziauddin Khan Reply:

    Mr. Rajeev,
    Dont judge the goodness of islam by seeing the identity and character of muslim , if you want to know the real islam pls read the authentic source which is nothing but Quran and Hadees.

    Bobby Reply:

    “Mr. Rajeev,….if you want to know the ….pls read the”

    This is just for the general info of all new comers on this blog. Mr Rajeev is incapable of reading anything beyond “Chacha Choudhary comics”. So please don’t waste your time advising him to do any type of reading.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I am pretty sure “Chacha Choudhary” comics have more material than Quran the handbook of soft terrorists like you.

    Amit Reply:

    Ziauddin,
    By the way, I think there is a spelling error. Shouldn’t it be Hadith or is it Hadees? One thing out of all this mess is that a lot of people are aware of Islam, rightly or wrongly.

    Rajeev Reply:

    What can be expect from soft terrorist like Bobby? Islam is the mother of all evils and bobby are children of that demon.

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    I think you are being a bit unfair to Zia. For heavens sake give him a break. You will have to agree, he has got one of the most difficult jobs in HT doing what he is doing.
    Further, there is no way HT would have given him carte blanche to to what he wished, he also has to keep editorial editorial policy in mind and the ever present fear of being branded a non muslim if he ever even tried to come up with his own interpretations.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Unfair, no. Cruel, probably.
    But what else can you expect from someone who is a “Low IQ”, “Moronic”, “Stupid”, “Hindu Bigot” who has been thus sized up and measured many times on this blog?

    I think you are over-estimating the difficulty of the job :-) The only real difficulty is a knowledge of the subject. Once you cross that, simple articulation of your ideas and conviction should do.
    I visit a lot of blogs, including Pakistani blogs. Many places I disagree, but, I do not comment because in all those cases, I think the authors’ scholarship and erudition comes through.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    i would thank Akhilesh and Rajeev for pointing out the faults of Muslim apologists , anti Hindu secularists whose social and political views are very biased against the Hindu community. Good job.carry on.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Gents (is that sexist? Yes)

    All “YOU” Hindu bigots, beware, “we the seculars are back (with a. BANG and also a secular vocab.)”

    Why do you “Low IQ Low standard Morons’ don’t correct your perceptions?

    What makes you think Aurangzeb was a fanatic? No way. There are just too many examples to demonstrate that he was not a fanatic, too many times when he refused to follow Islamic law. Let me give you just two of them:
    a. He imprisoned his father. Is that as per Islamic law ? Now b. He fired one of the Judges (islamic judge) who refused to issue a fatwa allowing him to attack another Muslim king. Again Islamic law ? No.

    Even the story about demolition of Vishwanath temple is misrepresented by Hindutva historians. Aurang’ was forced to do it for two reasons, one to avenge mistreatment of a Hindu queen by the Temple Bramhins and second because the hindu queen insisted that for her honor to be restored the temple must be demolished and a Mosque in its place must be built. This is the real story.

    That is why even today he is reverred in India. On the occasion of his 300th death anniversary, 100,000 people from all walks of life (excl. Hindu Bigots) visited his shrine. The local administration declared a public holiday. Don’t believe me ? That is the SOP of Hindu bigots, deny, misrepresent, abuse, anything to tar the glorious history of Moghul India.
    Go and search on the google abt his death anniversary.

    Aaaah. Aaj main upar asma niche! Jamana hai peeche

    Ashish – the “ring leader of Hindu Bigots” Secular bano, try kar ke dekho. You will see what it does to your self confidence, to your faith in humanity.

    Mera certificate kab ayega?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    Please henceforth sign off all your mails with: A low IQ, moronic Hindu Bigot (LMHB for short) ..
    gosh, this sounds even better than I initially thought. You know, like the Sound and Light show at Red Fort, where the voice-over announces the arrival of emperors?
    Can you hear the roll of the drums, yet? As you make your way to the stage on the red carpet?

    What? What did you say? You want a secular certificate now? Sorry, wrong number.

    -Sd/-
    LMHB

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Ashish
    Looking at your long service against the cause of secularism and your persistence with old and incorrect perceptions, His Excellency hereaby grants you the title of LMHB.
    Congratulations , Applause.
    -Sd-
    Secular Aspirant (see the power of ‘Hope’)

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    You said hope and I thought of Obama and of the Good Taliban and the Bad Taliban…

    quick, now, no beating around the bush: are you a good secular or a bad secular?
    LMHB

  • K

    Bobby seems to crowd these posts with provocative ‘opinions’ based on partial facts, so Zia’s post doesnt get debated to a large extent.

    Zia, you are drawing a comparison between a teenage fan cheering for Akram and a muslim locaility bursting firecrackers in celebration when Pakistan defeats India. In my view, you are confusing patriotism with infatuation. I am sure Sachin admires Akram too and so do many Indians, but an indian defeat to Pakistan still hurts. The two emotions are different and frankly, those who celebrate Pakistan’s victory over India dont deserve to breath Indian air.

    Have you ever wondered why these folks dont celebrate Pakistan victory over other countries ???

    [Reply]

  • gopi thomas

    @Bobby et al

    Bobby, the subject of discussion is Zia’a article on hindu-Muslim divide or lack of divide; Amartya Sen’s observations, etc. Let us discuss Dalits and Barhmins etc on another occasion..

    Zia’s central thesis was that everything will be hunky dory “if only the majority community changes its perceptions” . That muslims do not have to do anything; that they are the victims of “farming” by Hindu zealots, blah, blah..

    I am not much of an expert on anything; however, I am well aware of the situations in South India in general and Kerala in particular. I have Christian and Hindu bacjkground, being the product of a Hindu-Christian union. Neither of them converted; and families on both sides have super good relations.

    When Muslims compalin they are not doing well in the north (mainly Bihar and UP), well, nobody is doing well there.

    Christians are the richest community in Kerala. they are also the most advanced educationally (although they are a minority, third in population). Muslims, I guess, will be the second richest community, followed by Hindus. Educationally, Hindus are more advanced than Muslims. Among Hindus, Brahmins will be nowhere in the “rich list”; most of them being poor temple priests. There are no major Brahmin landlords nor industrialists. Ezhavas, a “backward” caste, may be the richest Hindu segment. So much for the “Brahmin control” Bobby is talking about; at least in one state.

    Christianity and Islam go back in time in Kerala (Christians in AD 50, Muslims in AD 650). Christians are “well-integrated” in the society; with Malayalam services in churches, active celebration and particpation in festivals like Onam, active contributors to the literature and arts etc. Christian women wear “pottu”, the sindur on the forehead. Muslims, in the last 25 years, have started moving in the opposite direction, discrading the “thattom”, a unique kerala outfit they used to wear, to burquas. When iI was growing up, I never saw a Muslim woman in Burqua. They either wore “thattom” or Sari. These types of things, i believe is happening all over India. Yet, Zia thinks it is only a perception issue.

    I have only respect and adoration for any soldier protecting our country. My statement that an indian Muslim cannot, within the precepts of I Islam, support India in a war with Pakistan (a Muslim country) is based on what a muslim friend told me, based on the teachings in madrasas and the literal interpretation of Qur’an. They, by the Book, are supposed to take care off Ummah first. And they will not be good Muslims if they do not support the Islamic army in a fight between ISlamic and non-ISlamic armies. So there is a choice to be made, that many Muslims find it very difficult. They lireally are torn without “guidance”.

    In Kerala’s history there was never a “forced conversion” and looting of temples by the Portugusese orr Dutch invaders. However, two of the (only) and worst instances of forced conversion, rape, looting of templesetc were done by Muslims. During Tipu Sultan’s famous (or infamous) “patayottam” (rapid war) , his army forcefully converted Hindus in the Malabar region upto and including Mangalore, looted lots of temples.. He also d emolished the Catholic churches in Managlore and converted the catholics into Muslims(the only recorded instance of a conversion of chritsians into another sect in india). Catholics who did not convert were taken prisoners in Srirangapatinam fort, where many perished (20,000 peopel ina prison for few thousands).

    Tipu even named Calicut/Kozhikode Islamabad. (yes, chjeck it out!)

    150 years later, in 1920, this history will repeat again in Malabar, as a part of the Khiafet movement. Some Muslim leaders, because they thought there is a new Caliph in Delhi and that British are gone, triggered violence, resulting in raping of women, mass conversions, looting of temples. This orgy (“Mopla rebellion”) lasted for couple of weeks before British could oragnize the police and army to Malabar. Malalabar Special police (MSP) was created to take care of future instances like this., Our revisionists will label this as an agrarian revolution!

    In fact, one should also remeber that, it was in the waning years of Khilafet movement, Ali brothers led 20,000 Muslims from the punjab/Sindh area to Afghanistan (there was no Pakistan at taht time); because of a Fatwa (we have heard about FAtwas!) that Muslims should not live in India, which is Dar-Al-Harb (“non-Muslim alnd), and should do Hijara (exodus) to Muslim friendly land, Dar-al-Islam/Amen, the nearest one at that time being Afghanistan. Afghanistan could not absorb this surge and closed their borders. Maany died, and many came back to Dar-al-Harb, because life was better in Dar-al-Harb (just imagine if all Muslims at that time had migrated to Afghanistan!)

    On tax money being spent on welfare — Bobby, that issue is a legitimate issue . Just like modern day Muslim vcitizens are not responsible for Tipu patayottam or Khilafet violence or Somnath temple, why should modern day middle calss support Muslim welfare indefinitely? I absolutely agree taht we cannot hold our Muslim brothers and sisters for teh atrocities committed by Gauri or Gazani or Tipu or Ali Musalyar (Mopplah rebellion) . In the same vein, they cannot indefinitely be subsidized too. If there is a subsidy, and I believe in the role of government helping people who cannot help themselves for vatrious reasons, let us use ecomnomic hardship as a basis instead of the so acalled caste and religious system–which you strongly oppsoe anyway. On one side, youa re compalining about the ills committed by Brahmins ( I am still looking for these Brahmins in Kerala at least!), and at the same time arguing for perpetuation of that through reservations, financial help. Make it based on economic status — so let all who are suffering be benefited.

    Bobby, u wanted proof as to why Hindus feel “there is nothing crueler tahan a majority that feels itself a minority”.. Any physical or social system has a trigger point. Through vote bank appeasement (yes, appeasement), constant complaining, lack of “self responsibility”, a sense when rich muslims get all the benefits of government apapartus while poor Hindus do not get; any of these – these are converging to a trigger point. My Hindu friends have talked to me about this. My Muslim friends also have talked about this; but they are afraid to open their mouth..

    We can all argue until as they say, cow comes home. The fact is that Muslims, due to the rigid prescriptiosn of Sharia, Hadit, and Islam religion, have not particiapted in the progress of India. Of course, I am sure there are acsaes of discrimination; but that is not “reserved” only for them.. They
    should be brought into the mainstream. The question is can they be brought in without a structural chjange in the ISlamic religion? What we see in Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia, and all other Islamic countries are elements of this tension only. In india, obviosuly, this tension masquerades as the majority community’s discrimination as a fodder. But the main issues are different.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Reply:

    I can not understand FORCED CONVERSION – If some one was forced to convert to any other religion , then why he didn’nt revert back once the ” FORCE ” is gone ?
    Infact more people are reverting back to ISLAM than ever before from all parts of the world especially West .

    Your comment about Tipu Sultan is a good fiction . Your imagination & ” creativity ” needs to be praised

    Now coming to question of Muslim Progress – Structural Change in Islam ? Islam is perfect religion of God for all the mankind including u – The question itself is foolish – I can feel sorry for your frustration and jealosy if even two copies of the holy bible do not match with each other- thosuands of versions , each different even some of then containing pornography – Christian Scholars often review and edit bible and some times take the junk off it -That is your problem

    The problem with Muslim of India is that we need only one thing – JUSTICE

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @Ahmd

    What is wrong with pornography? I and you (if you want) should eb able to watch or do poronography in our bedrooms. We do not need a government or religious police to tell us we cannot do this.

    Listen, if you are happy with where Islam is going, kudos to you! If I were a Las Vegas bookmaker, I will not bet on it..just watching the self immolation of Muslims from Somalia to Pakistan. They are self destructing; and US or ISrael (or Indians) does not ahve anything to dow mith that self destruction.

    Great philosophies evolve over time. It acnnot be frozen in a timewrap. The philosophy is frozen for life in 650. What do you think is the reason why Muslims are regressing while the world is moving fast (you may not agree that there is no regerssion, and that Miuslism are progressing fast).. Why are they not inteersted in education? Why did PAkistan fail miserably, while India with a large poor population not only grew economically, not only created institutions, and except fro a brief period of emergency, maintained democracy? Why is there worldwide ISlamic terrorism (I do believe it is committed only by a smalls egment; nevertheless thats egment is cretaing havoc all over 0.. Why theer are only very few creative works (poems, novels, philosophy, shorts tories, otehr books ) published by Muslim authors in India, or in the Arabic world in general? How can a country like Saudi Arabia move ahead if they ban theater, nmovie, dance, drama, music.. See, one can assume theer is no problem, or do something about the problem. I really wish theer is no internal contradictions, and everything is hbunky dory. But my interactions and observatiuons say taht theer will be a “Reformation” type movement sooner than later to protect Islam from itself .

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Islam can never be truth..it is outdated arabian imperialism whose sense of morality is so low that it considers criminal Mohammad as role model.

    [Reply]

    Ziauddin Khan Reply:

    Mr. Rajeev,
    I think you have not read the islamic teaching properly , you are just viewing ur point based on what u have seen with ur eyes about the muslim , read the Quran with meaning , i definetly sure your eye will open and clear ur doubts about islam.

    For your information:
    Michael Hart has put Prophet Mauhammad (PBUH) on first position is his book “The 100 most influential personality of world” , and Michael Hart is a christian.

    So pls read before ejecting out ur venom.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Sana

    You are at the wrong place. Selling Jihad “as defending belief” (or variants like self reformation), killing only in self defense are slogans we bought earlier, tested and found fake. We have crossed that stage long ago. You will have to do better than that. Same with non-availability of celestial babes in heaven, no compulsion in religion, for me mine for you yours, kill one kill all or save one save all.
    Also it is just the salafi sect or variants are also past due date.

    Who brings religion in everything? Is it those governmental bodies who have to study Koran and cite its interpretation as justification for (against) something? whether you like it or not your religion is everywhere and wants to be in many more places. Who claims that Islam is complete and it covers all aspects of life. Hindutva Bigots? Personal law, demand for Islamic banking, what to wear and what not and it is not limited to India, it is a problem everywhere.

    First they seek citizenship to western countries for God knows what and then start asking for Sharia for Muslims.. Then halal food, designated places for offering Namaj in every institution, be it school, hospital, Jail, office or college etc. After some time, they will demand Sharia for everyone (Britain is a nice example). You know Why? Because they want to save the “decadent west”.

    Try some newer tricks or find an under developed market for selling your Islam is religion of Peace type of wares.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @ Sana

    Thank you.

    I was attempting to give my perspective to Zia’s column that “if only the majority community’s perception is changed, everything is hunky dory”. So, to him it was just a perception. And to him, the one to be changed was the majority. So, I was trying to articulate why things may not be that simple.

    @world beginning — What I meant was the bginning of Islam religion based on the Prophet’s words. More importantly, many consternations and conflicts we see in the Islamic world , according to me, is due to the lack of debatres, thoughts, ideas of the Prophet’s sayings; that it (the ideas and philosophy) began and ended in 650s , and it is frozen and time warped. It is ones opinion and theory; I hope there is active discussionn on this among the enlightened intellectuals

    @ Terrorism – I agree with you it is a minority who is committing this; and that they are bringing bad name to the larger Islamic community. I do believe that no Holy Book will advocate the killing of innocents. However, the terrorists are following Fatwas and Mullas. The teachings about Dar-Al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb, Hijarat and Jehad etc are all hard etchd in them. Many of them are taking the literal interpretations advanced and supported by extremist proponents. Saudi Arabian money and Wahabi spread (including my home state of kerala) all have contributed to this. The main issue of the spread of terrorism, as well as a wall being created all over the world, is due to reasonable people like you, moderate Muslims did not come in force to denounce and criticize these atrocities, The moderates as well as the establlishment did not come enmasse denouncing until a respected Mmaulavi was killed by Terrorists in Pakistan 3-4 months ago. The denial to bury the Mumbai terrorists’ bodies in November also was a good gesture and a powerful indicator. American bombs may create some dent; however, the main impetus and action has to come from the moderates and life loving section of Islam, vigorously espousing the ideas as you have articulated, opposing these people who are hijacking the “peace loving” religion. Islam has to be protected from Islamists.
    @Yes, I am for an Indian nation where all can flourish, all can worship whoever they want, or do not have to worship if they choose so. However, this flourrishing cannot be in negation to the civilization and ancestry that goes back in milleniums. So, in this perspective, I do have a problem when you make the statement “a set of people want to be affiliated with their religion rather than their culture” – these are the same tendencies that ralso esult in terrorism, that they are exclusive, that God talked to them, that their affiliation is not with the country but with “similr” believers spraed across, etc.

    @names – Anybody can have any name; that is not the issue. I brought it up in connection with Zia’s “perceptions theory “. Acceptance, perceptions, opinions etc are formed by various things. And one thing forming perception is the name. A Subramanyam will take a longer time to integarte or to be accepted in the American society. Gradually, his children become named Brad or Monty; they are still Hindus. I was providing as an example, how Christians in kerala have evolved. They have names like Vimal, Sunil, Sandhya, etc and that has not diminished their “christianness” (whatever that is). A Vimal is accepted more in the Indian society than a Hafzullah-al-Kaider. (it does not make it right; but that is the way the people are; we can pass laws prohibiting, at the end of the day one cannot go on legislating). So, I was using that as an example of how perceptions get created, and how the distance can be eliminatd or minimized.. By the way, the womens tailoring center I mentioned was in Kerala, and it did not have a Malayalam name; neither a translation. I do not have a problem; neither I m sure many, but believe me, if one group goes on naming their clubs and charities always in Arabic, perceptions do get formed; distances do get developed. so, it is not a question of not everybody knowing Hindi; if it is a womans development program in Tamil Nadu, by gods sake, name it in Tamil, or if it is in the border areas of Tamil Nadiu, name it in Telugu, Malayalam, or Kannada; but not Arabic.. One has the right to name it in Arabic; but then do not whine and complaint “we are being viewed differently”. Especially when these are namedlike ” xxxxx-al-xxxdddin”, people think it may be a terrorist organization, or something connected with Lakshar-e-tibe etc . May be the majority should reserach these names before forming these perceptions; but you know what..

    @ Respect/Harmony Obviously nobody is advoocating a lack of respect. When I criticize naming organizations in arabic, I am not criticizing Islam. Our forefathers accepted people belonging to all religions. Our heritage is “Loka samastha sukhino Bhavandu” – we did not distinguish Hindu vs something else, or Indian vs other countries. In schools in kerala, during my childhood, we were taught “Lokame Tharavadu” (meaning the whole world is my ancestral home). I know my Christian ancestors came to Cranganore (modern Kodungalloor) in AD 30s. Moslems came to Cranganore in 650s. Dutch came. Jews came. We all know Parsis came to escape the prosecution and how they enriched our lives. India always accepted others extending their namaste – “Athithi Devo Bhava”. When i look at Christians in Kerala, for most part, I see a well integrated community, obviously with their own core religious beliefs and differences. When i look at Muslism in kerala, although they have to catch up by 600 years to match the Christians’ history in Keraal, I do not see an integarted community; and more sadly, I see a trend in the opposite direction;to be separate, and different, and exclusivec,. They dress different (it was not thatw ay until 20-25 years ago), they name different, they did not take advantage of educational opportunities (they have done a good job in the last 20 years), Malappuram district (a predominantly Muslim district , “awarded” to appease Muslim league by the EMS Namboodiripad communist ministry — figure out, communists are supposed to be obliviant to religion!) is the most backward of all Kerala districts (to the extent that Kerala is comprable to some of the western nations in metrics like infant mortality, womens health, womens education etc if one excludes Malappuram;, however, when malappuram is included, the metrics go down significantly– Zia’s hero Amartya Sen has described this in “aAgumentative Indian”. May be an interested scholar should study the integration/acceptance model of Christians and Muslims in Kerala. I believe useful information asto how perceptions get created or can be improved, and how distances can be reduced and how strong bridges can be built. can be inferred from this study and hopefully practised.

    We have to make it work.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    “By the way, the womens tailoring center I mentioned was in Kerala, and it did not have a Malayalam name; neither a translation.”

    If this is indeed true for the particular tailoring center you mention, then all one can say is that the people running it are nuts. I mean its in their own interest that there be a translation in a local language. It would only reduce the number of people going to this center, if most people don’t understand what the center is about!!

    In all instances I have come across there is always an english and local language translation for shops and other centers, which makes good buisness sense. So I would not worry about such isolated cases.

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Dear Sir Mr.Bobby,

    You either involuntarily or deliberately seem to always miss the point..don’t you? Or am I missing something?

    Be happy!

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian, ……maybe YOU ARE missing something!! :)

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @ Bobby

    The Womens center was a charity, not a business. And many more like that goes by only Arabic name. (businesses generally do not go by Arabic name, because of obvious mercantile reasons!),. May be if the local language translation is given (like Bal Bhavan or something), all in the larger community will know the purpose; they may even volunteer, hey may even bring their children etc..

    Recently, a Muslim organization was formed, with a name Itihad Mujaihaideen . People can undeerstand Muslim Youth League, or Muslim Literary Organization or its equivalent Malayalam languageWith worldwide terrorism, with organizations like Lakshar-e-TAiba etc , I am sure many people will be thinking this is a terrorist outfit. In this busy world, nobody is going to take time to understand what itihaad Mujahaideen is … the easy conclusion for many will be it must be some Mujahideen movement like Pakisatn Taliban. This si how perceptions get formed. We can say it is not right; anybody can pick any name etc;

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    maybe the do not want to let Hindus/Christians come to their place..

    by chosing a name, you are sending a subtle or direct message.

    I am sure, they thought about this when they are naming this place..

  • D10

    Mr. Zia Haq,

    More than the contents of your blog, it is the response which it has provoked, which has prompted me to comment. I find it rather disturbing and disheartening to see a discussion on India’s pluralistic culture being carried out in such a militant tone. Perhaps I am naive and hold a more unrealistic and utopian view of what India is/should be, but I have always felt that every Indian, irrespective of their culture, religion or race is a part of ‘India’. The idea of testing the ‘Indian-ness’ of any Indian on the touchstone of some symbolic allegiance to a cricket team or film is to me repugnant! It seems that every time the word ’secularism’ is mentioned in a public space, a slinging match ensues wherein Hindus try to denigrate Islam and vice versa.

    Most people would probably not agree with my opinion on the subject (judging by the nature of responses to this blog) however I feel that ‘Indian-ness’ as it exists today has been shaped predominantly by the events of the last century. I do not deny that we have a long history and rich culture, and that definitely shapes our identity. However, we are all products of the 20th/21st centuries. To that extent, it is my opinion that the dominant forces which shape our identity as Indians are those from this century – the idea of secularism enshrined in the Constitution is to me sacred – far more than any scripture or any culture. When I see people rejecting this notion in favour of appealing to an identity based in times long gone, I find it rather sad and in some ways rather immature!

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Most people would probably not agree with my opinion on the subject (judging by the nature of responses to this blog) however I feel that ‘Indian-ness’ as it exists today has been shaped predominantly by the events of the last century.”

    Dear D10, I agree with you.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @D10

    I have not seen anything against secularism in these blogs; rather how to preserve and strengthen that.

    The discussion started because of Zia’s statement, “it is all perceptions, and if only majority community vchanges its perceptions”..

    Perceptions are not created by enshrined constitutional principles, or legislations; it is crfeated by groups of people living, working, enjoyoing together. It is created by outlooks and approaches. it si created by the way one dresses or what is one passionate about. One is passioante about literature, while another may be passioante about Ummah. Figure out.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Sen is a nobody in the indian political or religious landscape.

    Let us talk about Muslim leaders who supported and worked against Shah Bano case.

    Why are they not discussed ?

    Can’t you have interview with them and let us hear from them, why they are against Uniform Civil Code ?

    We dont need some leftists opinions about religion in India.

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @Sam

    U r right about Leftiss (who destroyed many countries).

    However, this discussion here is not about religions per se; but about the so called “perception only — if only majority community changes its perception everything is A OK” theory of Zia.

    Leftim and Marxism ahve been thrown in the dustbins of history (ecxcept Indian CPM).. Indian CPM also will go ddown as the last elections show.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    What is the point of talking about “perceptions”, instead of talking to real people ?

    Why doesn’t Zia talk or quote key political and religious people who are on both sides of current problems.

    Muslim People who want Sharia and who do not support UCC.
    Muslim People on the other side, who could be working for UCC

    Let us hear from them, not Sen…

    Let Sen stick to economics.

    There is a tendency that just because they are famous for some expertise, they should be listened to in other fields..

    A hear surgeon, is welcome to have opinions on how to design rockets.
    But if you really want to design rockets, let the expert people do it.

    So we really need to hear Muslim politicians who are working behind the scenes and who are actually the movers and shakers.

    Then we will know if it is a perception problem, or an illusion or a reality ..

  • Anil

    Cheesy headline aside, I do not need Sen to tell me that as a kif if whole urdu section of my school supported pakistan in cricket match then it must be due to the fact that their parents told them to do so.> otherwise they were as oblivious about history geography as I was at that tender age..

    I am told things have changed now but to say it didn’t exist and doesn;t exists now would be a dishonest attempt to mask the truth..

    Talking of why muslims of India used to eb doubted

    They voted with aplomb when jinnah saheb gave the call of division of India and thundered ” i will take india divided or destroyed.” Each and every muslim constituency half of which fell in today’s India voted for muslim league.. Congress could nto win even a single seat. Same congress which has wiped the elections before Jinnah gave Pakistan call in 1936…………

    Amartya Sen may be needs few gistory lesosns on this..It’s apparent schoalrchip in economics doesn’t prepare one for pontification on history..

    This election result is cold fact not opinion of anyone..

    Due to logistical problem after aiding the division of India majority of those who worled for it stayed back and expected people of India to embrace them as if nothign has happened that too while they sulked in a corner suckign their thumbs….

    It doesn;t work like that.. first they will have to accept their crime and then try to come in mainstream instead all we see is another round of tantrums which remins one of the 1905 Muslim league era..

    give me this give me that.. I will keep reading quran but you must give me job even fi I am not employable.. i need haj subsidy I need special reservation..

    all these special porvisions is how indian divison story started.. Indians are not fallinf for thet same ruse of islamsit again and again

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @ Sunil

    Obviously, the chldrena nd grandchildren of peopel who follwoed Jinnah, or “either Pakistan or destruction”, cannot eb held accountable for past activities. Howevr, on a going forward basis, one has to assure is all have equal rights, and no one has any special rights.

    General economic and educational development should eb avaiilable for all people and not based on “birth” groupings. The politicians and administartion has to slowly repalce teh current system of appeasement to one taht is strictly based on economic status.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Bobby The Truth

    You are right. The Philosophy guiding the attackers of 9/11 was similar to Bhagvadgeeta.

    The denial syndrome and the Moral License, the terrorists and their defenders marshal after every terror attack are fundamentally derived from
    Bhagvad Geeta but to hide their real motives and to denigerate something else, they proclaim a different source.

    Surprise anyone? Too Bad,
    This is exactly what I said, Bobby the Truth, that holding one’s breath, for forces of reason to, as much as caress the citadels of “BElIEF” was a foolish idea. BELIEF does obliterate the difference.

    As I have said many times, Your supreme wisdom and unshakeable BELIEF, do not leave LMHB’s like me with much of an arguement. Accordingly, Oppenheimer, the Manhattan Project, its “terrible” consequences and your belief about GIta’s Influence there, do deserve the same treatment as all the other profoundities popped by you. And so for your Inner Jehad. Btw why not the Best Jehad

    Notwithstanding my low IQ etc., am beginning to see value in your belief that “everything depends on interpretation.” Right now I am trying to interpret the statement: “You are, Your Own Punishment”

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Off the topic but not the subject.
    Saudi cleric urges prayer reform http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8242989.stm

    see how wrong critics are

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @sks mumbai
    thank god for small mercies..

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Syed,
    Don’t you think it’s a bit too late. It’s like an arsonist trying to put out the fire.

    [Reply]

  • gopi thomas

    @ Bobby

    At the end of the day, it is people themselves and their leaders who create institutions and pathways to meet aspirations.

    It is easier to blame others; and difficult to look into onself. So, the ususal suspecvts, Oh it is the ersult of colonialism, or it is due to poverty, or it is teh USA support for Israel..

    Africans were mad at colonialism; and what happened after they got freedom. (i am just using as ane xample of another set of complainers)
    Who is preventing the kids from Arabian penninsula from studying in normal schools? Saudi Arabia has PhD programs, with 95% of them (about 300 ) in some aspects of Qur’an.

    But just like therer is so much interest in blaming colonialism and second world war and the end of thhe Ottoman empire etc for all the vows, why is not there a vigorous, “separate from the religion” movement in those countries? Why is not theer a passionate movement as strong or stronger than (hopefully) the terrorist and nihilist movements? Why wouldnt there be a movement “educate 10000 girls next year” or something like that? Even in Malaysia, which i thought “normal”, is going the Saudui way — public beating scheduled for the girl who drank beer, and jail punishment for a girl who wore pants. I know I am digressing…but i see these trends growing; and I do nots ee (may be it is happening; and Is incerely hope so) the mass movements to educate women, educate men, involvement in arts and literature etc. It looks like (again i hope I am wrong) the only staple of enjoyment is Qu’ran. And I see this dangerous trend even in a “educated” state like Kerala. Man, they do have district and region wise competitions on Qu’ran recitals!

    The only successful and life changing (for positive) initiative I have seen coming from an islamic country is the Grameen BAnk idea pioneered by Yunus Salim in Bengla Desh. All other movements, such as Saed’s tied religion as the center piece and destroyed lives; still destroying indiscriminately.t

    By the way I will not compare Madrasa to Gurukul.( the system in India hundreds and hundreds of years ago). Gurukul was not teaching a “religion” and neither religious books. And literature and arts flourished then as well as now – Great works like Sankaracharya’s Saudarya Lahari, Ezhuthachan’s Adhyatma Ramayanam, Poonthanam’s Jnanapana etc in Kerala (or whatever it was called in those days), and Chilapatikaram etc in Tamil, and numerous works in North India were all part of the Gurukul system. For good or bad there are no gurukuls in India anymore (may be in some remmote areas of Bihar!) ..

    An educated people interested in arts and architecture creates a platform for the next generation, who hopefully will build on that and enhance the thought processes, improvise the art forms (such as why not stage Hamlet in Kathakali form?) .

    Looking back, do you think Turkey would have been better off if it ws “Islamic Republic of Turkey”? Or, for whatever reason, if Turkey had ended up like a Pakistan or Sadui Arabia, instead of Kamal Pasha controlling the clergy, do you think Turkey ’s per capita income or educational achievements could have been maintained at what is existing at teh current levels?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    What you are telling me is how Muslim nations and also muslims societies have lagged behind other communities, the world over. I don’t disagree with that. Though I think this is something that effects different groups at different point of time.

    What I am and always have been saying is that:

    (a) Islamic terrorism cannot be explained by looking at the Quran, you have to look at the situation today in the world to understand that,

    (b) This muslim backwardness especially in the Indian context is used as an excuse especially by the right wing hindutva nuts as another stick to bash them with. So as an example, personal laws are used an example of special treatment of muslims, while in reality this should be a matter related to womans rights in muslim societies, not some muslim non-muslim issue.

    (c) Any attempts to help muslims by the GoI to help address their problems, like increasing education spending for instance is immediately dubbed “muslim appeasement”. This is also true for any actions taken for dalits- SC/ST in this country, when any thing done for social justice is immediately dubbed “anti-meritrocracy” by upper caste hindus and non-hindus, (In India this caste buisness is not restricted to Hindus) who do not want to give any level playing field for the “others”.

    Finally this statement of yours…”and difficult to look into onself” is something I agree with completely, and I so wish that Indians would do so more often. I am sorry to say I feel we Indians are complete hypocrites on this front.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Gopi Thomas:
    If I may, I would like to point out some rules here:
    1. You are not “secular”; so you have no logic. Actually you have no intelligence. You are a moron.
    2. Like “Everyone needs a good draught” (to quote from P Sainath’s title), all seculars need a cause to flog (the market may not need them, but when has it stopped a determined salesman?).
    3. In case of any doubt, please refer to rule no. 1. And, if you are tired of being called a moron, press F5 to refresh the invective :-)

    Gopi, as they say in Hindi, “aap to inke pet pe laath maar rahe ho” (you are undermining their livelihood). If Muslims actually prosper and join the national mainstream and start thinking of themselves as Indians first, what will happen to the “liberal secular” constituency?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Bobby and fundoos,
    Here is the real difference between India and Pakistan-
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Fearing-Taliban-Pak-Hindus-take-Thar-Express-to-India/articleshow/4992774.cms
    Fearing Taliban, Pak Hindus take Thar Express to India
    Vimal Bhatia , TNN 10 September 2009, 02:15am IST
    Print Email Discuss Bookmark/Share Save Comment Text Size: |

    JAISALMER: In the past four years, some 5,000 Hindus may have crossed over from Pakistan, never to return. It has not been easy abandoning their
    homes, sometimes even their families, but they say they had no choice: they had to flee the Taliban.

    It started as a trickle in 2006, the year the Thar Express was flagged off. The weekly train starts from Karachi, enters India at Munabao, a border town in Barmer, and runs up to Jodhpur. In the first year, 392 Hindus crossed over.

    This grew to 880 in 2007. The next year, the number was 1,240, and this year, till August, over 1,000 have crossed over. They just keep extending their visas and hope to become Indian citizens.

    Incidentally, these are official figures. Sources say there are many more who cross over and melt in the local milieu. And officials have a soft corner for these people, most of whom have harrowing stories to tell.

    Ranaram, who used to live in the Rahimyar district of Pakistan’s Punjab, says he fell prey to the Taliban. His wife was kidnapped, raped and forcibly converted to Islam. His two daughters were also forcibly converted. Ranaram, too, had to accept Islam for fear of his life. He thought it best to flee with his two daughters; his wife was untraceable.

    Dungaram, another migrant, says atrocities against Hindus in Pakistan have increased in the past two years after the ouster of Musharraf. “We won’t get permanent jobs unless we convert to Islam.”

    Hindu Singh Sodha, president of Seemant Lok Sangathan, a group working for the refugees in Barmer and Jaisalmer, says there’s unfortunately no proper refugee policy in India even though people from Pakistan reach here in large numbers.

    He said in 2004-05, over 135 families were given Indian citizenship but the rest are still living illegally in the country and are often tortured by police because they don’t have proper citizenship certificates. “In December 2008, over 200 Hindus were converted to Islam in Mirpur Khas town of Pakistan. But there are several others who want to stick to their religion but there’s no safety for them in Pakistan.”

    Immigration officer at Munabao railway station, Hetudan Charan, says the arrival of Hindu migrants had suddenly increased as over 15 to 16 families were reaching India every week. “None of them admit they are to settle here but seeing their baggage, we easily understand,’’ he said.

    Ravi Kumar, who was Barmer collector till his transfer two days back, said the government in 2007 had given permanent citizenship to a few Pakistani immigrants.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby and all,
    These people across the border (Pakistani muslims) are your blood brothers and you all go around drumming peace with pakistan. You marry with them yet when it comes to their actions, you cunningly dis-associate yourself from them.

    I don’t see Shabana howling when hindus are treated shabbily in Pakistan.

    It is time Indian hindus learn from pakistani muslims and treat Indian muslims in the same was as they treat pakistani hindus.

    It has been a win win situtation for muslims in India, Pak and BD whereas Hindus have been loser everywhere.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @ Rajeev @ Bobby etc

    We are digressing from the key precept of Huq’s article about the “perception” of Muslims by the majority group; and how problems will melt away if only the majority commmunity changed its perceptions.

    Well, Rajeev, you are not that far off on the subject; because incidents like these do affect perception.

    However, I will not agree with you that Hindus have been a loser and Muslims in the three countries are better off.

    Whether Hindus are better off — may be by corelation of the majority community, you may be meaning India; I would say India is definitely well off because of the partition.

    This is called the unintended consequence. I do not think Nehru and Paatel and Azad had a sinsiter motive or they foresaw the Islamic anarchy and terrorism that would engulf the world 60 years later.

    Look at India, Rajeev; you see towering educational institutions of world -renown; you see its bright young people designing Systems all over the world, you see its expatriates doing tremendously well contributing to many countries of the world, you see world leading companies like Wipro and Infosys and Mittal,You see people like Indra Nooyi leading Fortune 500 companies like Pepsico (in a country where women are still fighting glass ceiling!). You see a vibrant democracy with relatively trouble free elections every five years. You see the aspitrations among its people met by individuals working hard. You see a country, where for most part, parents are working for a generation better off than themselves. You see light in their eyes. Yes, we have problems; but they are insignificant compared to what our ex sisters face. Our leftists will magnify these problems, that the sky is falling. In another 10 yeras we will be much better if we maintain the tarjectory, in 20 years we will be even more better. But what prognosis can be made of Pakistan now? The only two choices are either a failed state or a failing stae, unless miracles happen.

    Can you imagine what India would be like if the country were not divided? India would have been a Pakistan in terms of the country’s functioning. Nothing would get done, because Muslim vote banks and MPS from East Bengal and UP would have to be placated. The terrorists dancing in the streets of SWAt and Karachi will be dancing in the heart of India. Our schools and colleges in the “Muslim parts of India” will not be any different from what is in Pakistan. There will not be IITs, IIms, IIMS; because a strong minoroity of Muslim league MPs will fight all progressive initiatives. The country will have one third of its people in Burquas. And quite probably, US Drones will be flying over UP and other parts of India bombing terrorists. The terrorist universities functioning in Pakistan now, will be functioning in India. All those frucking acronyms, LeT, Jes, all of them will be in India.

    It may not be far-fetched; but a quite possible scenario.

    We should be thankful to Jinna for clinging on his demand; and thankful to Nehru for his blind ambition to be the Prime Minister. If not fo tese two individuals, life in India would have been significantly worse; and we would have been included in the list of “failed states”.

    More later.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoaib,

    Your views are very similar in content to the “shining india” campaign that the BJP started during the 2004 elections. We all know how badly they got kicked in the butt by Indians, who did not agree with their assessment of the economic health of the Indian nation.

    There might be a light in the eyes of Ambani and some software engineers, most Indians actually have a fire in their hungry tummies. Around 800 million is the estimated number of people who live on less than Rs 20 a day here in India. If you don’t believe the “evil dreaded socialists” then go and check the UN HDI.

    We have actually slipped down in position in the last decade or more. The rich amongst us maybe doing far better than the rich in Pakistan, however when one compares the poor of the two countries, I dont think there is much of a difference.

    Shoeb k Reply:

    Bobby, I just cannot believe you!

    When I graduated 30 years ago in Engg from a premier Engg Institute (REC), only 5 had job offers on day 1 out of the 130 students.. Today, all the garduates from good colleges have multiple job offers; and many get payment/assistantship from their prefinal year. Those types of boost is happening all over.. Accenture came down to recruit BA/Bsc students In my hometown (which is a tier 4 city),

    Infosys, Wipro, Mphasis, TCS, HCL India, Reliance and many more–these are all companies that started in the last 30 years. Ambanis may have created wealth for them; they also have created wealthy people, richer middle class, and richer poor class. They built the worlds largest refinery, largest private harbor/port. Infosys created so many jobs and so many millionaires who in turn started so many companies and cretaed so many jobs. Instances are many. When companies get sarted, jobs get created, plus many support and peripheral jobs -like elevator operators, security personnel, roadside tea guys, dry cleaners etc etc get created. So, there is a true trickle down effect.

    Yes, there is much to be done. A well regulated market place will do tremedous wonders for India. It has already unleashed the entrepreneurialism and creativity of Indians; the ecosystem of venture capital, private equity, SEZs, one window clearance etc are doing wonders. Couple that with the brain power of IITs , IIMs, NITs etc..

    If you think Indian poor and Pakistani poor are on the same level, hey, this is a free country; you can have your opinions. Even if it is true, I know the Indian poor will not turn to terrorism like the poor in Pakistan are doing.. (one oft documented fact of Pakistan is that poor children do not have schools to go to, and Madrasas funded by Saudi Arabia fill the void, and in turn these poor kids are trained as terrorists in 40,000 institutions). (I do want Pakistani and Indian and all other poor kids all over the world to do well. To this extent, I am doing what I can do giving free Math and English tutoring to poor children).l

    Pakistan commerce is controlled by the military. They own and run factories, build roads, do land development and construction management etc. 80% of the PAkistan economy is owned, managed, and run by their military. Figure it out.

    So, in your iopinion, is India a failed state like Pakistan, or you are just stating that the poor in both countries are relatively at the same level?

    (I know PAkistan is yet to do a meaningful lannd distribution; with few families like Zardaris and Bhuttos owing 90% of the land; while in India, for most part there has been a land redistribution)

    Rajeev Reply:

    I feel this Bobby character is either a pakistani or has lot of pakistani relatives. He has no word of condemnation for his brother across the border who have been committing genocide of hindus everyday.

    Evenif Modi gets 2000 muslims killed everyday, he won’t match barabarians acorss the border and their supporters in India.

    It is time hindus start forcing muslims to accept hinduism else deny them job and everything else. let them pack and go back to Pure land starting with Baharuddin (Bobby).

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoaib,

    “So, in your iopinion, is India a failed state… or you are just stating that the poor in both countries are relatively at the same level? ”

    I don’t think India is a failed state. However it has definitely failed in removing poverty….and yes the poor in India are probably worse than the poor in Pakistan.

    Bobby Reply:

    “whereas Hindus have been loser everywhere.”

    I dont know about Hindus, but clearly you are a loser.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Bobby,
    Instead of personally calling someone a loser, can you put the same energy for correcting the horrible injustice meted out to Hindus in Pakistan ?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    This is the problem with you muslims. Rather than looking at the issue of Hindus in pakistan, you attack hindus in India. This is the exact reason, I consider likes of you soft terroists because you keep on covering for hardcore terrorist.

    It looks like you are the loser for eternity..not even your make-believe Allah can save you.

    Initially I used to feel bad for Iraqis and Afghans civillians getting killed by US strike but I don’t feel anything now because of people like you.

    Paritosh Reply:

    Indeed you are very right Rajeev. but its only the Hindus of India and the goddamn Indian government who shows reluctance in doing so. the recent riot in Sangli over the Afzal Khan murder cutout clearly shows that Muslims are an aroggant community and are nothing but only burden.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    their arrogance comes from thinking they are the absolute rulers for 800 years.

    This incorrect fact has to be corrected with maps under muslim kings
    (starting with 8 century to 20th century).

  • gopi thomas

    @ Bobby

    I do agree with certain aspects of your points. As they say, one should move to a common ground, if possible.

    India needs all the manpower – Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jain, Budhist, Sikh, aethists – to pump it for the future. We cannot afford to waste any mind (” a mind is a terrible thing to waste” used to be a long standing ad by the United Negro college in the US). We need more Narayan Moorthys and Premjis; Dr Swaminathans and Dr Varghese Kuriens; AR rehmans, Ousephachans, Hariharans, Chitras; Ms Kochars and Mr Kamaths; Indra Nooyis and Vikram Pandits; Bhimsen Joshis and Bismillah Khans.

    @ Terrorism .. I agree that one should not look into Quran for the source/reason for terrorism. However, I disagree that the current world situation is a driver. What did Bamyan Budhist statues and the giant Bushist statues in NW Pakistan have to do with world situation? If Palestine is the issue, how come these terrorists do not go there and attack Israel? Or, why would not the masses around PAlestine (Saudi, Jordan., Egypt, Syria et al) just walk into Israel, like Gandhi did during “Dhandi Yathra”? Yes, Israel will kill some; but nobody will be able to resist millions of people marching in . What world situation explains the son of a rich Muslim Dr couple (who owns a hospital) in Bangalore bombing the Scotland airport? What world sitution expalins a boy (actually lot of boys) from Kannur in Kerala go to PAkistan to get training and attack places within India? What world situation explains Darfur? Why would Pakistanis and arabs bomb train station in Madrid? Dont u think the notion of “Ummah” has something to do with this? Or the improper definition and understanding of this concept by some of the Muslims? The atrocities Muslim terroristts are doing all across the world can be compared to if Hindus from India joined LTEE in Sri LAnka fighting the Sri Lankan govt, or Ctholics blowing up places in UK and other protestant countries because of the situation in Northern Ireland. But Catholics dont bomb UK or Netherlands, neither Indian Hindus dont bomb Sri Lanka. Why is a French hijab problem a Pakistani muslim problem? or for that matter, a Malappuram Muslim’sm problem? For that matter, why Palestinian problem has to be any other Muslim’s problem other than the PAlestinians (yes;it is a human problem; I am not for the Israeli aggression and settlements). So, at a fundamental level,is there a conflict between nation state and personal religious belief system? Even the Khilafet movement in India had to do with restoration of Caliphate in Turkey …just figure it out…But the key point is, assuming thre is this conflct among some of the followers, who will guuide and rectify these internal conflicts before tehse guys blow up the world?
    @ Personal Law – I personally do not have problem in granting a group to follow their Personal Law, as long as it does not leave that group backward. Even if the PL is granted, the community has to reexamine the purpose, validity in the modern world – is it making marriage difficult, divorce easy; widespread polygamy (All the Muslims I know have only one wife), does it make education difficult for girls/women etc. However, one should keep in mind, that a sepaarte PL will result in a group of people being perceived differently with the associated attributes of different, exclusive, un indian etc.. It iwill be a natural byproduct of having a separate PL.

    @ Govt Role: Obviously the disadvantaged segment has to be brought into the developmental mainstream. But , is it the “Same thing, no change, for ever”? IS it time to change what we have practised for 60 years? Are the people (upper strata of the backward, muslim, etc)who are getting huge advantages keeping these for themselves denying the ones who really need this? Should an “upper caste” girl from a destitute family go uneducated? How can we ever be out of the “caste” system if we perpetuate this ? ( I am aghast that the leftist intellectuals are big proponents of this caste/religion based reservation system in perpetuity). From one side of the mouth, one cannot say how bad the caste system is, and from the other side of the mouth yack about maintaining the caste system!

    I believe the best system will be an economics based system – so all the people who need the help will get it instead of the unequal distribution now that causes resentment by all except the “well off creamy layer” who immensely benefits from the current system.

    It is time to change the system; may be Bihar has to have a different system from Tamil Nadu; may be in Kerala, the whole thing should be stopped and reservations given only to tribals etc etc.

    The major focus should be on the country’s economic prosperity thrtough the right economic and investment policies, so results will trickle down uplifting people’s well being. Whatever the leftist intellectuals say, there has been real progress in peoples incomes and improvement in living standards for all due to the economic boom of the last 15 years. Obviously more has to be done and will happen if we progress at 7-9% growth.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    What do you think makes a Kerala Muslim to.
    be recruited to do violent activities in their own country.

    What is the attraction of this idealogy, which turns kids from welloff and sensible people into terrorists ?

    Please write in detail, about this “Sudden Jihad Syndrome” where seemingly nice and middle class/rich kids turn to be jihadists.

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @ Sam

    Thanks Sam.

    My theory is based on my conversations with my Muslim friends. It is just a hypothesis/theory.

    Some of the mullas in some of the mosques do preach “islamic broterhood”, “Russia brutalizing in Chechenya”, “indians killing Kashmiris” , “Israel killing Palestinians “,Islam in danger” “elimination of infidels”, etc etc and preach violence. Many international terrorist incidents are even openly hailed. There is lot of Saudi Arabian money from the extremist Wahabi group flowing into Kerala mosques. There has been a marked “regression” back to burqua etc (Kerala muslims never had burqua). The moderate, “malayali mopla” of yesterday is taken over by fundamentalist/extremist Wahabi and Salafi like sects.

    Many of these boys are at an impressionable age, and it is easy to turn them around making them sympathize for the “injustices” happening in some far corner of the world. Islam has a notion of “Ummah”. It is a powerful notion, transcending nation-state (or even more important than the nation state). So, some kids identify more with the so called suffering of his fellow Muslim brothers in some far corner of the world, or based on what these illiterate mullas teach, turn against their own fellow Indians. The fact that these Kerala muslim kids, who never experienced any separation or discrimination, whose parents are well off, etc will get into these activities have been an eye opener. The real question is if some of the Muslims in Kannur or Kerala can be terrorists, what about Muslims in other parts of India where they do not have as much clout and progress as Muslims in kerala?

    There is another aspect. Among Hindus, for example, one would not go to the temple priest for advice; neither the priest will preach about politics. The people “Swamis” who know deep philoophy and can talk about various philosophical issues are highly educated pople like Chinmayaananda, Renganathananda etc. And very few Hindus read or study these books. Hindus do not have the equivalents of Madrasa. Similary, among Christians, the cardinals and bishops and the main priests are highly educated. There are books and interpretaions galore. There is deep questioning and people find their own paths. The mullas are not educated, except in the literal interpretation of Quran.

    So, I think it is blind leading the blind. Unlike Hindus and Christians (although some Christian students go to Sunday school), most of the Muslim children attend Madrasa regularly in addition to and instead of regular schools. The Madrasa teachers are also for most part like Mullas.

    And I think this “one track, restricted” thinking and approach has affected their creativity. While there are so many Christian and Hindu poets and writers in Malayalam, the number of Muslim writers are significantly fewer, quite small compared to their population. Christians, who are less in number, may have 100 times the writers than Muslims. Something to ponder about… Although twenty years ago there were big time Muslim writers like Vaikom Muhamed Basheer, NP Muhamed, KT Muhamed, Yousef Ali etc.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Basically you are telling the young people go to Mullas (who are themselves ignorant or biased or both) and get brainwashed.

    why do parents let this happen ?

    why do young people get violent ?
    It takes a lot more than ignorance to get violent and become terrorists.

    what exactly are these mullahs are teaching or what videos or what verses are they using ?

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Sam

    Kerala moplahs (muslims) were quite integarted – in dress/outfits, participation in Onam etc. Starting late 1980s, certain changes started happening. Many Keralites went to Saudi Arbia and other middle eastern countries searching for jobs. Muslims were generally performing lower level jobs; and sharing residential facilities with Muslims from PAkistan and other Islamic countries. They fell under the influence of Wahabism, and slowly Kerala muslims were coming under the control of Wahabist extreme ideology.. Saudi Arabia was financing a larrge number of new mosques, all in the Arabian architectural style with minarets etc that were unusual in Kerala mosques until then (old Kerala mosques were like large hindu houses)Muslim League which was a moderate Muslim party started splitting with extrremist groups like NDF, SIMI etc branching out from muslim League..

    My “unsubstantiated” view is that the finaces and push came from the wahabis in Saudi Arabia and their agents here in India/Kerala.

    Now coming to Mullas and brainwashing – I belive they have techniques (generally managed and coached by “experts”; not necessarily Mullas), to target the right profile boy, and to make sure the boy does not let his parents know.

    The crux of the training is that “your action will save Islam”.. They are told that Islam is under siege at Palestine, Chechenya, Uyghar, India, Afghanistan, iraq, the list goes on. They are reminded of their responsibility to Ummah (the larger Islamic brotherhood) . Violence/Jehad is justified to resist the infidel in these situations;, they are brainwahed as to how Allah is reliant on them.The terrorists such as the 9/11 perpretators are glorified as to how they attacked the most powerful country in the world .

    Jehadis make a video expalining “their cause” before doing the suicide attack. This and otther videos are used during the “training”. Select ones are also sent to the International University of Terrorism in PPakistan..

    Sam Reply:

    Can someone get hold of the literature or videos or speeches used by the Mullas to create terrorists from young innoncent people ?

    There should be a “sting” operation of this process.

    Press has done such “exposure” in UK.

    Could the press do similar things in India ? why not ?

    Can someone trace all the Saudi money, where it is going to which mosques, and which parts of the country ?

    Can RTI act help in tracing this money from Saudi ?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    Somehow my post got deleted.

    “Whatever the leftist intellectuals say, there has been real progress in peoples incomes and improvement in living standards for all due to the economic boom of the last 15 years”

    What you say is true for only a small section of people. To use your terminology the “creamy layer”….For most the condition is pretty bad. The inequality in India as elsewhere is actually rising with dangerous consequences.

    This is a video by P. Sainath on this issue of inequality. In case you do not know who he is, google his name.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1N3aLJiCAw

    You can read any number of his articles on these issues on “outlook” or “india together”, and znet, all available on the web.

    We have actually slipped in the UN HDI. Also, according to the world bank report 1999-2000, an estimated 800 million in India live on less than Rs 20 a day, and poverty and hunger is quite close to sub saharan levels.

    “Are the people (upper strata of the backward, muslim, etc)who are getting huge advantages keeping these for themselves denying the ones who really need this?…”

    The people who have actually got huge advantages are actually the upper caste people. Its sad that you don’t see this. Effectively several million are out of the race “to do well” due to systematic biases in our society.

    This is something we should always remember when we say for instance that for instance a Narayana Murthy has done well due to his “talents”. The talent is only part of the story. The fact that several hundred million could not compete with him due to no fault of theirs is also an important part of the story, something we should never forget.

    “From one side of the mouth, one cannot say how bad the caste system is, and from the other side of the mouth yack about maintaining the caste system!”

    This is a very weird logic actually, but very frequently used by defenders of the “status quo”. To give you an example of how stupid the argument is, let me give you an example. Imagine in Germany, the government tries to help the victims of Nazi policies. In order to do that obviously the Government would have to compensate the Jews. And now imagine that the Germans made the same argument as you do, that is to say : the Government should not give compensation to the Nazi victims, since that would involve again separating the citizens into Jews and Non Jews, which is wrong, because that is what the Nazis did….!!!!

    Hope you get the point.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Let muslims start compensating Hindus for all the violence, looting, raping and Jizya taxes collected..
    The taxes collected are all recorded and can be easy to calculate.
    Then adjust them to the present value and donate that to Hindu temples.

    Hindus were impoverished and became poor (partly because of this)…due to Muslim oppression.

    Germans are compensating for all the death and destruction done to Jewish people monetarily.

    They are creating special reservations or special laws for Jewish people..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    typo.

    Germans are NOT creating special reservations or special laws for jewish people.

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @ bOBBY

    I thought I almost got you to reason; but looks like you are slipping away!

    You may be right about the rich/poor gap, because we have 10,000 or more times rich people than we had 10 years ago. We had only Tata, Birla, TVS, Mahindra, Kirloskar, Kothari, Godrej and few others twenty years ago. Stock market growth, formation of new companies etc have created many many zillionaires. and these zillionaires in turn have created many more jobs. Automobiles and other consumer spending are at unbelievable levels.

    Of course there is poverty. But the number/share of poor and destitutes has decreased. If the 800million people were at 20Rs in 2000 (we are now almost in 2010, there is no meaning in using a 10 year old number when India was just emerging)!, it will be 30Rs now, and it would have been 10Rs in 1990. We will and we should do better. I have all the confidence based on my own interactions, societal wealth creation activities I witness etc. I interact with people at all levels, poor, middle class – I do see unbelievable confidence, optimism, and “light” in the eyes. You can hold onto your belief that we are on a downward path based on the numbers you see; again, it is a free country; one can have any belief!

    Narayan moorthy’s father was no Tata or Birla. His father was a school teacher in the days when teachers were paid poorly. His ingenious application of an idea affiliating himself with few smart people like Nilkini created a world respected oragnization. I am glad, for India and the world and for me personally, that his engineering college seat was not taken by anybody else based on some quota system! Because, in that case, we would not have had an Infosys (although there is a 1% probability that the replacement candidate potentially would have been successful for himself, but not for the world). So I am glad nobody else took his seat! India is significantly better off because we have a Narayan Moorthy. Let us give credit when it is due, and not worry about what ifs! Life is not always fair and whoever it is who should have got that seat, I thank him with a full heart for not being selected!.

    No, I do not see the caste problem in the vicious way as you see it. I do admit many people in pre-independent India were excluded from opportunities (and it is not like the country was full of opportunities then ). I do admit caste system is bad; anything based on a birth based system is bad. As the newly independent country and newly configured states established more colleges and universities, and expanded government employment, it was right to bring all into the equation through various reservation systems. My beef is, after 60 years of following one system, is it time to experiment with another better system to include all weaker people.

    Let me use the Kerala example, which is not a big sample, with a 250 lakh population. More than 50% of seats in professional and govt aided colleges are reserved for the non-Christian/non-high caste segment. It has been like this for the last 50 plus years. All (higher caste and lower caste) are admitted in the merit quota. Ezhavas (considered a backward class) in Kerala are rich and educated. Muslims in kerala are rich; but less educated (not because anybody prevented them from getting education). The second chief minister of Kerala, R Sankar, was an ezhava. I am still on the look-out (per your allegation) for the all-controlling rich Brahmins here (and elsewhere!)

    Now does that mean that we do not have a problem in India? There are backward states like Bihar, UP, where ALL have problems, not just the lower caste; may be the lower caste have bigger problems. These are called Bimaru states for nothing. I always thought one Bihar was too many for India; and now we have 3 Bihars!

    We have to improve the living standards of everybody and bring all in the developmental path. No mind can be wasted. Any mechanical, physical, social, and administrative systems should be constantly reconfigured and changed using new information available. It is high time we change the system if we have not been bale to “fix” the problem with 60 years of the current reservation system. I am a strong proponent of reservations based on the economic status, so that all needed people will benefit and our country will advance significantly because it will be a dynamic system catering to the needs of now and present, and not based on something past, especially feeding rich people like Ezhavas and Muslims in the Kerala scenario. I also think it will enhance the integration and self confidence (or less self loathing). When reservations is based on economics, nobody knows the caste of a fellow student, and will not ridicule he got admission based on caste or religion.

    The jewish example, unfortunately is not a good example. First, it is a one time payment( and not a regular reservation/payment in perpetuity) as a compensation for the art stolen, or wages not paid, or properties confiscated. Second, it is a US Jewish lobby induced payment, forced on Germany. (I am not a proponent for this; war is a “*****”; shit happens. I do not understand why only jewish people should be compensated. What about American Indians from whose lands the modern America is created?/what about the black slaves..what about all other people who were “conquered ” in wars…And the fact is that, even without any of these “payments”, Jews would have still done very well, as their post war history of business and scientific accomplishments show.

    I am not a defender of caste system or religious system. I am for opportunities for all. India needs tremendous amount of manpower to meet the demands of a 7% growth. I am a rich Christian who has never felt an iota of discrimination; in fact I have felt only respect. I know more than my “fair share” of poor Namboodiris in Kerala.

    We have Meira Kumar as the speaker. We had Narayanan as the president. We have Balakrishnan as the Chief Justice. We had Fahthima Beevi as the Supreme Court justice.These may be just symbols and not yet a critical mass. I am confident, based on what I see in the business world, we will need all irrespective of caste or religion. We just cannot afford to shunt any groups. Powerful chief ministers like Krunanidhi, the late Raj Reddy, and Achuthanandan (I do not know if he is powerful or Vijayan; both are ezhavas) in the south are from backward caste/reserved group. Mayavati, CM in the most populous state in India is a backward caste person. I am sure there are many more CMs belonging to the backward segments in the north(like ex Bihar Lalu Prasad)

    My theory is that a reservation based on economics will facilitate the integration and put the country on a higher growth target because of the constant rebalancing of people’s economic status through an economics based reservation. In time, all will be better off or well off through the penetration of education across all levels as needed.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    As I said before (which you ignored), we have actually FALLEN in the HDI, after liberalization took place. The amount of food consumed by the poor has actually decreased, which means they are eating less!!

    “What about American Indians from whose lands the modern America is created?/what about the black slaves…”

    Look I dont know whether you really don’t get the point, or are you just playing dumb?? I mean what I said was an example! You could take the example of African Americans, or the American Indians, the same point I raised arises.

    “I am still on the look-out (per your allegation) for the all-controlling rich Brahmins here (and elsewhere!)…”

    If you have even the basic moral integrity, then you wont have to look far. I had posted an article in one of my earlier mails regarding this issue. Please look it up.

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @ Bobby

    The liberalization of Indian economy in mid 1990s by PV Nrasimha RAo and Manmohan Singh was a watershed moment in Indian history. it unleashed entrepreneuralism,, creativity, innovation; changing the landscape of Indian economy. Pretty soon we will be invited by th G7, and in ealy 2000, we will become a member of an imprtant economic bloc BRIC countries.

    The poor man may not be eating as much as he used to, because he may be buying TV and cell phones, CDs and DVRs. Just joking!. Jokess apart, if he is eating less, we should make sure people who need food are delivered food. We are more than self sufficient in food; we have grains getting rotten in warehouses; we have to improve the distribution systems. The poor man is not eating not because we dont have grains, or not because the govt does not have priorities; it is because of the totally inefficient government distribution .

    We do have resources to ensure the food supply to the poor sector, and many other developmental progarms. (as an example, we will be spending Rs 5000 Crores just for Muslim development next budget year);; we have money for social and nutritional schemes; but the officialdom obviously steals a good percentage; and the intended parties do not get theytargeted benefits..

    The larger issue with the rural poor is the imbalance in the share of agricultural sector contribution to the overall GDP. Agriculture, which contributes 14% GDP, employs 29% of the workforce. So, the main issue is how to reduce the agricultural employment and transistion them into manufacturing and services sector. We have started working on that. Until this transition happens, we have the obligation to assist them to meet the minimum requirements. We are all together, and we will amake it happen,

    @ Compensation to Jewss — No, I understood your point. What I said was it is not an apt comparison to the permanent reservation ssytem we have here in India. The payment to Jews was a one time (not recurring in perpetuity) payment to compensate for the art work stolen from them, property confiscated, wages not paid etc. There was never a “reservation system” in jobs or education. We all know that Jews came back with vigor and accomplished significant scientific, business, and political accomplishments after the devastating trauma of second world wwar. That success did not have anything to do with the financial compensation they got for teheir property.

    (I used the American Indian/Slaves situation as an example to show my opposition to the compensation paid to Jewish victims. Shit happpens during war and once you start compensating, there is no end..).

    India has done a wonderful job of land distribution to sharecroppers; with almost all states implementing some sort of equitable distribution. In kerala, Govt under EMS Namboodiripad, took over all agricultural properties above 5 acres and redistributed to the sharecroppers in early 1960s. Similar thing happened all across India.

    @Now to yyour favorite subject, “how Brahmins control everything”.. Forbes recently published the richest 40 Indians’ list. for 2008 There are 3 Sardarjis, 2 Muslims, 2 Parsis, 2 Jains and the rest Hindus in the list. Of the Hindus, there are only two brahmins; and they are in the bottom 20. Of the “brahmin dominant state in Tamil NAdu”, as KArunannidhi always says, there were two members; both non-brahmins (And one is Dayanidhi Maran, who is Karunanidhi nephew running the media empire).

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    I don’t understand your obsession with symbols always.

    When talking of share of resources all you can point out to is a Forbes list! The forbes magazine is a gossip magazine. The most serious article you could ever hope to find there would be how much the top 0.01% of the population spend on toilet papers to wipe their “collective a s s e s”.

    If you take a look at any of the articles or listen to the link of P. Sainath I sent then u would get hold of some “real statistics”, not the “forbes version”.

    7% or 9% GDP does not mean anything, nor does the rise or fall of the sensex. Simply because not even 1% of Indian households invest in the stock market. A far better parameter is the HDI, in which we actually fall. An honest assesment is the report of the WHO which states that hunger in India is reaching sub-saharan levels. Things are actually detiorating for most Indians.

    The problem with most of the media coverage of India Economic health is that they really only look at how the rich of the country is doing. There is a shameful obsession with the wealth of the rich, and how they spend it in our society.

    The inequality that I am talking of is a real phenomenon, and you can see its impact, simply by keeping your eyes open. Fact of the matter is that only the “creamy layer” has got a better deal, at the expense of the poor.

    As an example one has to only look at the spate of farmer suicides, which is due to the fall of cotton price thanks to the dumping of cheap cotton from the US and EU. There was almost zero coverage of that event in media, while at an average two farmers were committing suicide.

    The “trickle down idea” has failed massively. Every statistics by the UN, World bank, and the Indian government has shown that.

    “The poor man may not be eating as much as he used to, because he may be buying TV and cell phones, CDs and DVRs. Just joking!.”

    This is not a joke, its a sophisticated version of the famous quote attributed to the french elite before the revolution…”If they dont have bread let them eat cake. ”

    Finally, since you have not read the link I sent about the caste control of resources in India, let me paste the article I linked previously again here.

    http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/27220957/When-will-the-BrahminBania-he.html

    gopi thomas Reply:

    bobby

    Wealth has to be cerated before it can be distributed. So, India , and all other countries need as many rich people.

    Forbes is a magazine coivering worldwide economy and business since 1917. It is not about how 0.01% population spend on toiletries.

    Farmers Suicide is tragic. You can say it is due to dumping, I can say it is due to the inherent human greed (them changing crops fetching in demand produce). Now, most of the farmers who committed suicide were not your Rs 20 per day variety. It is tragic, and I hope it does not repeat.
    7-9% growth in GDP is huge, you cannot just ignore saying “it is nothing”. Stock markets are important part of a well functioning economy. Although many poor may not directly own stocks, its performance indirectly affects all.

    We are not, and will not reach a “sub-saharan” level (you almost seem to be delighted to state this). If we get to that stage, then all of us should commit suicide. There is no honor.
    I promise I will.

    I tend to see glass as half full. I remeber widespread rice shortgae in Kerala (India) in early 1960s, and Mrs Gauri importing macroni to feed the people. I remeber my village /town where there was only one family with a car (now almost every house has 2 cars). So, it is all a perspective.

    Should India do better? Of course. Does it deserve a credit for its accomplishments? yes.

    I maintain Brahmins do not control wealth in this country. They are no where close to it. I am even willing to bet there are more rich Muslims than Brahmins using, say, 2 crore RS as a base.

    Bimaru states should be developed like South Indian states. . Otherwise we will have a west europe/east europe situation in economy and development.

    Do not worry. We will be alright.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    I can see that these discussions are not going to go anywhere. Let me end by simply saying that its pretty clear that you don’t even understand what “upper caste” means, let alone how and how much casteism impacts Indian society. Its not just “Brahmins”. Have a good day.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Shoeb K

    From your 5 in an REC 30 years ago, we had reached about 30 in 1994 another REC, 15 years ago. In 1993, two guys were selected by TELCO and they had become role models for all their Juniors.

    Hardly 2-3 years later, there were at least 5 companies recruitng 30 each. Those we were selected for TELCo in 1996 were buts of ridicule, aah Bada hero banta tha Telco me job laga hai!
    No offence to any Telco employees

    But then you are arguing against a belief.

    [Reply]

  • http://, Sam

    Some interesting readings.
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027514.php#respond

    ==============================================

    The percentage of Pakistan’s population that is Hindu has gone from 15% at partition to 1.5% today. The percentage of Bangladesh’s population that is Hindu has gone since partition from 35% to 8%. Meanwhile, the percentage of Muslims in the populatoin of India has gone steadily up. The same kind of thing can be seen everywhere where significant non-Muslim minorities have existed. The percentage of Christians — Copts, Maronites, Assyrians and Chaldenas, in the total population of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq — has gone steadily down. The same is true in North Africa, where after the French left, the screws were turned on the Christians who remained. As for the Jews, they were subject to so many attacks that the Arab lands emptied out of them, and in Iran, when the Shah fell, and under Khomeini Islam returned with a vengeance and legal (and informal) protections for Jews as for Baha’is and Christians ended, the Jewish population went way down It is the same everywhere in the Muslim-ruled lands.

    Meanwhile, in Western Eruope, every European country opened itself to Muslim immigrants, offered them every conceivable benefit generous welfare states could offer, and whose non-Muslim taxpayers funded. Free medical care at the Western level, free education, free or heavily subsidized housing, family allowances (and Muslims have large families), and so on, and by now there may be 20 million Muslims in Western Europe, the historic victim of Muslim attacks (in East and in West, from Poitiers to Vienna), either by armies, or by ships with Muslim raiders who for many centuries ravaged the coasts of the non-Muslim lands, even going so far as Ireland and, once, Iceland. About 1.25 million non-Muslims were kidnapped by Muslims from Western Europe. In the East, among the Circassians and Georgians, and the Slavs, there were similar Muslim raids, and seizure and then enslavement of men, women, children.

    Is there nothing to be learned from this? Does the Western world, or those in it who presume to protect us, not have a duty to know this history, both in the distant and in the recent past, and to draw some conclusions from it?

    ================================================

    [Reply]

  • syed

    A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it – Einstien
    This was written by einstien about Christianity in those days. I think it will be pretty fair to say that it applies to islam in the presemt context. The issue I am trying to usderstand is why is islam like this. Only when we know the reason why, will we then be able to do something about it.

    The main reasons I have been immedial=tely able to come up with are:
    1) It is a practically liveable religion. To clarify, followers following the fundamantals of the religion can go on with their lives (in whatever form) in Islam even if they follow most of the teachings. In contrast, compared to Christianity in the old testament, some of the old verses are so violent that the faithful start having serious doubts about the authenticity of the religion.
    2) The Saudi Govt has a vested interest in keeping muslim populations extremely conservative and religious & try to spread the religion. Why? Because the second largest forex income (after oil) for Saudi Arabia is through the annual haj and lesser umra (which goes on throughout the year on a 24*7 basis. Conservative muslims are much more likely to go for haj. Hence unlike secular countries Islamic Saudi Arabia spends a large part of its GNP on religion and related activities which gives a boost to Islam.
    3) Islam teaches blind faith to its believers and this faith is drummed in from early childhood so much so that the worldview of most muslims is different from others. In other words muslims more than ay other community are convinced about the truth of their religion & hence the related prosecutions.

    This is just the beginning of a thought process. I would like to know from you what in your views are the factors which have lead to islam being what it is.

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Syed

    Islam, if it has to survive as a religion, has to be saved from Islamists.

    For Islam, thoughts and ideas perished in the sands of Arabia, with the demise of the Prophet. It has been in a time wrap ever since.

    Arab wahabis and salafis have taken the religion back to the old days. What the world sees today is only one side – the nihilist, selfd estroying, mass muderers. Saudi Arabia stands as the single financier and promoter of this. They exported this to all countries where Muslims live including India.

    Islam is at cross roads – people who want to live a normal life vs the warriors of faith bent on imposing their will and their interpretation.

    There are various reasons, too many to be enumerated. The madrasa system creates a “one track” mind people, even if they grow up and pursue other studies. I am of the opinion that creativity and the ability to think differently etc are all snipped off through the tarining and education there. What else could explain the dearth of writers and poets and philosophers among the present and immediate past Muslim world?

    You just look in India. Just take a survey of writers in all Indian languages and English. You will be surprised how few there are. You take a look at the publications in Arabic language. In a language spoken by 1 billion people, there were only 800 titles published in the last 40 years! That is 20 books in a year. In Malayalam, spoken by 250 lakh peoplle, I guess there are 20 books published a day!

    So, there is a huge intellectual vaccum. A huge cultural vaccum. A huge artistic vaccum. You acnnot listen to music, stage a play, go for a movie in Saudu Arabia. What type of a society it can be if arts is not encouraged and nobody participates in artistic endevors?

    When people live for religion and not live religiously, calamities happen.

    Education, adaptation, absorption — these are the tarits of a winning and surviving philosophy. hinduism leaves individuals to pursue whatever god or wahtever philosphy one wants. The concepts of Dharma, Satya, Ahimsa etc are enduring. It has survived for milleniums and it will survive for milleniums. No Hindu or no christian (or most western christians) loses sleep over the disappearanec of religion. Wheeras most Muslims constantly live under “islam in danger” , whether they are in a minority status, or like PAkistan when they are the only group in the country!

    Openness and acceptance makes a ssytem, country, religion, community stronger. Indian kings welcomed Christians in AD32, muslims in 650, jews, parsees.. India has only become stronger and vibrant due to all these.

    Islam would have been vibrant and inquisitive and innovative, had they absorbed Shia, Ahmadiya, Sufi ..The rigidity and frozenness only grew with each exclusion..

    More later

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I can’t believe that a muslim can have such fair thoughts. Syed, I salute you for being the first muslim that I have encountered who can actually think and look inwards.
    I hope most of the muslims are like you.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    @Shoeb
    I don’t know abt your’s mine is now known as NIT.

    Going by your response, It seems you haven’t seen/ignored my comment about your analysis on Islam’s problems.
    that was just an attempt at secularism -Indian style

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Rajeev,
    I can’t believe that you are actually praising a Muslim. :) . But, I respect your fairness in your abuse. In that you are quite catholic seeing that you have now included all semitic faiths as not being peaceful. Would you kindly expand the list to include ancient Mayan and Aztec faiths too as well as some strains from Hinduism that involved ritualistic sacrifice of humans.
    Peace!
    Amit

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Amit,
    Both civillizations Mayans and Aztecs were wiped out by a semitic faith called Christianity so how can I compare oppressed people with the abusers.
    Learn your history.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @ Syed

    Syed, all the points you had are valid and throw light into historical reality and current perspectives.

    While I agree with you about KSA being the focal point of the decimation of Islam (through the strict interpretation ,demonstrated intolerance, text books spreading hatred, religious police etc), I do not think Islam has yet reached its nadir, or KSA is modernizing suffiicient and fast enough

    As I see, there are two possibilities for Islam. In one scenario, KSA, the custodian of the Holy places of Islam, will be responsible for the destruction of Islam (would’nt this be so ironic?) with the current jihadist trend taking an even violent form destroying Pakistan to KSA to Egypt, yemen, Morocco, Algiers, and all other Sunni countries. The winds are already blowing there, with no counterwind. In the second scenario, which we all should pray and hope for, the moderates will take over after a bloody reformation. At this time it is only a hope; and hope cannot be a strategy. Moderates have not yet started their movement!

    All the great religions – the Original Indus valley thought process (which later got labeled as Hinduism), Budhism, Christianity, Judaism all evolved over time. They absorbed, expanded, adapted: with diverse and conflicting thoughts coexisting without creating life or death separation between groups with alternate views. All of them moved from the main person (in Hinduism there never was a personal founder or a single person with ideas) to a system of intellectual engagements, compassionate belief systems, universality, inquiries into life, death, and existence etc. What the main Man did int His time became less in important than what was in His mind; except in Islam.

    Historically, all religions/cultures had two closely related ways – “Mythos” and “Logos” as ancient Greeks would call them – of arriving at the Truth. All religions, except Islam, moved more to the “Logos” side as a part of their evolution. They were/are debating “God beyond God” ; while Islam is still in the Mythos stage, with violent fights on competing mythos.

    When the Prophet Muhamed died unexpectedly after a brief illness on June 8, 632, his followers were stunned. The revelations He had communicated to His embattled community of followers came to an end; it was as though god, who revealed himself through the prophet had suddenly fallen silent. Prophet Muhamed had not unambiguously named His successor. The succession issue which started within hours of the prophet’s deatjh would quickly lead to momentous rift between the two implacable factions (Sunni and Shia) ; a divide that continues to this day with horrific consequences. Propht’s young wife Aisha led her troops (who all got butchered) at the Battle of the Camal, followed by the slaughter of Husayn , his family, army at Karbala in 680. Violence has been an integral companion of the religion ever since the prophet’s death;( in fact the term “assassination” has roots in “assassins”, the terrorists trained by Al-Hasan in early 11th century )

    Shias are more pacific, more enlightened (in the sense they have moved a litlle to the “logos” side of the equation)

    Sunnis, who are the majority, follow the Sunna, the code of practice as practised by the Prophet with many believing it should be lived as practised in 632).. And this brings the KSA into the equation. As a part of concessions given to the new King (the British picked one common man and appointed as the King) to rule freely and to use the wealth, the Sunni puritans (led by Wahab) were given total freedom to perpetuate the orthodox Sunniism (Wahabism). A significant part of the oil money was given to Wahabis to spread the violent starin of Sunnism worldwide. So, in additiion to the Sunni Shia violence, we now also have Sunni-Wahabi/Salafi Sunni, Wahabi Sunni vs the world, etc etc

    On one side there is a (growing) Sunni group against all modern (and good) things – democracy, education (for men and women), womens right, womens jobs, coexistence with other groups(religions and countries ),. This group, in addition, wants to protect all of Ummah and truly feels the pains of any in the Ummah.

    Syed, instead of reaching a “nadir’, the violent orthodoxy is spreading. In Malaysia, just in the last week, one woman was sentenced for drinking beer, and another one for wearing pants. Malaysia, until now, did not care for these “offences”. The “mythos” moral police there is following the footsteps of Saudi Arabia.

    Violence. othodoxy. Paranoia. Exclusion. Blind beliefs. Desire to be in 632 instead of in 2009. All these are fast tickets to hell.

    More to come…

    Akhil Reply:

    Quoting your line thomas
    “All the great religions – the Original Indus valley thought process (which later got labeled as Hinduism), Budhism, Christianity, Judaism all evolved over time.”

    Funny is to read about evolution and expansion of christianity in last 150 yrs in the world. I wonder why you defend christianity.

    Akhil Reply:

    Violence. othodoxy. Paranoia. Exclusion. Blind beliefs. (All these indispensable charecters were gone from Christianity around 150 yrs back when most of the world was sanitized and converted by missionaries!!!)

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Syed,
    You did say you were a debater in college. I am beginning to get the drift :-)
    bravo sir!
    I think I will sit this one out; but carry on. Should be very enjoyable.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Syed,

    In my opinion, the answer to your question is the absence of scientific education in most Muslim societies.

    The reasons you give are I think true for most religions. Islam is as practically livable as is Hinduism, and about a billion people in India do lead very practical lives without compromising with their faith…same for christianity.

    About the violence in the old testament, Inspite of that Christianity still has the largest number of adherents. Also , I believe people mostly do not give that much relevance to religious texts. They mostly pick and choose those ideals which get along well with their own set of moral beliefs.

    Regarding your second point about Saudi Arabia taking initiatives in spreading Islam, I feel so do many christian missionaries, and I think their ways are far superior, given that they come societies where “advertising skills” are more sophisticated.

    Coming to your final point about preaching blind faith starting from children of a young age. That! sir, is the definition of religion. Its what makes religion …well… religion.

    What is actually different is the level of penetration of scientific thoughts and rationalist movements, which is more in western nations, south east Asian countries and even India, though India is still very religious……but its just a matter of time.

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    The illiterate Mulla Omar and his followers destroyed the ancient Bammyan Busdha statues. In his delusional mind, with the rot recital of the Holy Book as the only “learning” he ever had. this was like Kaaba (the Baitullah and Baitul Aleeq) that was occupied by the 365 idols worshipped by mushrekeen of Mecca. There were no Budhists in the northen part; and no worship. An enduring symbol of history was brought fdown and destroyed by few explosives.

    Most of the Muslim world, Ararb world in particular, is illiterate, not only in scientific inquiries.

    They are illiterate in everything including their Holy Book. Most peopel do not know or ignore the Prophet’s meccan period. The atrocities that were perpretatted on the messenger of Allah and his sahaba were many; but for 12 years the orders were to keep their hand tied and not to retaliate no matter how much suffering comes your way. His followers had the urge to retaliate immediately, but the messenger ordered them not to do. The message was to never enter into a conflict/combat if you are not strong militarily. So, what do the present day followers do– send children on suicide missions, Mullas permit suicide missions, ragtag team going after USA….

    So they are illiterate on the basic of the sunnah, they are ignorant of the world, for many, the only learning is the literal understanding of Quran (learned in Madrasa taught by 4th grade educated Mullas — by the way why do those kids always move their head forward and backward while reciting Quran?0

    Widespread illiteracy, underdevelopment, excessive dependence on an (unlivable, outdated, wrongly interpreted) theology shaped the Muslim psyche. The despots and kings, dictators of Pakistan like Zia Al Huqq only facilitated this.

    Forget aboutt rocket science or marvels of engineering or fancy theory of econometrics. How many novels are written? how many poems are written? How many plays are written? by Muslims anywhere and in Arbic language particular.

    The mind is closed. People who can help has to come from within. But they are focusing on political correctness. ” Why are you calling it Islamic terrorism” when LTEE is not aclled Hindu terrorism? or IRA is not aclled Catholic terrorism? Oh, it is the result of colonialism (so what?)..Oh, it is the support of the west for Israel.

    Saudi Arabia leading conversion effort is entirely different from from the proselytization efforts of missionaries – missionaries are not representatives of any state. When history is rewritten in fifty years, you will note that Saudi Arabia, the keeper of Mecca and Medina, caused the destruction of Islam. What an irony! (and the destruction will not be because of conversion – I was noting about the conversion because of the improper comparison Bobby used.

    Bobby says “preaching of blind faith starting from children of a young age. That! sir, is the definition of religion. Its what makes religion–well—religion”.. That is such a hogwash! There is nothing like “madrasa type immersion and arabic learning” in any other religion I am aware of. There is no Friday mosque prayer (and feeling guilty if oen could not make it). There are no Hindu or Christian priests preaching violence and jihad like some mulals do every week.

    Problems start when people live only for religion and forget to live religiously.

    .

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Thomas,

    “There is nothing like “madrasa type immersion and arabic learning” in any other religion I am aware of.”

    That is true for EVERY religion. Religion is nothing but blind faith. The fact that you don’t see its hold on contemporary Western families and many (not most) hindu families, is not because hinduism and/or christianity are more enlightened than Islam, but because religion itself has a very little hold on people, and that happened in India, because of the spread of western “scientific” education.

    Also please note that Scientific education and rationalists movements do not constitute “rocket science”.

  • SKS Mumbai

    Mr Syed,

    Which school have you passed out from? RSS shishu mandirs? If you want to propagate the Hindutva propaganda, the least you can do is to identify yourself correctly, instead of hiding behind a Muslim name.

    So you think Islam teaches blind faith to its believers then what about demolition of Babri Masjid, what about the genocide in Gujarat? You think they were not taught blind faith? What about the Bramhins and upper caste hindus? What is their world view?

    As per your definition, anybody who believes in the truth of his religion is intolerant? What will you say to those whose truly believe in their religion and their religion is also true?
    Are you suggesting that they should leave the ignorants in their darkness at the mercy of hindu upper caste fascist?

    This is exactly what the RSS/VHP kind of people want.

    So if you want to do analysis, you better devote your time on the vile Bramhins and upper caste hindus and see why are they still able to perpetuate their tyranny and how to end it

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @gopi, you have made some interesting points. Will get back to you later

    @sks mumbai – Instead of jumping up to the slightest hint of criticism, i for one would like to introspect what exactly is making muslims what they are even in 100% muslim countries with no negative foreign interference. Sure babri masjid happened (i for one was stuck in mumbai then & had to seek refuge in a hotel under a hindu name), gujarat happened, which cannot be justified but we have to look ahead in the same manner as i expect hindus to look ahead of the mughal atrocities. My priority is not the battle between brahamins and lower castes, or the tutsi and hutu problems in africa. At the end of the day every community has to solve their own problems and that can only happen when we start with looking at ourselves. .
    And please dont give me the RSS/VHP line. I had enough of it along with the JAmat i islami/SIMI bogey.

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Syed,
    Your thoughts are appreciated as well as your desire to move ahead from bogeys of past. But, I don’t think your comment about Mughal atrocities is right. It’s sad how history is being taught but there is very little evidence of Mughal “atrocities” apart from Aurangzeb’s. Rest of the Mughal rulers were quite secular and cosmopolitan. It’s not in interests of a nation’s future to selectively remember its past. Some of us are closer to the Mughal times than the ancient Hindu/Buddhist times. They are all ours.

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    Mr Bobby

    What did your statement about Mr Narayana Moorthy -
    “several hundred millions could not compete with him due to no fault of theirs” – mean?

    One hundred million is 10% of India’s population. Did so many want to start a company like Infosys, and did the government give him any special license blocking all others?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    people should focus on creating conditions for so that more companies like Infosys are created.

    Imagine India, where every district is able to create a company of that size.

    That is where the people, govt, businessman should focus their energies in achieving that…

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    Firstly Narayana Murthy’s name was just an example. It was not meant to be any statement about him in particular. And secondly the figure would be much more than 100 million.

    My point was that several prospective “narayana murthy’s” or even smarter who are not be able to fulfill their potentials would be in this list of millions…..

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Bobby

    I still do not get it. Narayana Moorthy or another person starts a company and it becomes a major player. So, who are these 100 million (or higher) as you say who are prohibitted/not given permission to start a company ?

    Are you talking about opening more engineering colleges so we graduate many more? As you know, we garduate only 60,000 engineers a year. Are you talking about enrolling millions per year?

    Did not get the gist.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb,

    What we are today is not just because of our talents or lack of it. Its also because of our upbringing and environment.

    It significantly more harder for a person born in a slum who has to work everyday right from his childhood to get to the same position as an equally or even lesser talented person , born in a middle class families who probably are of the order of 200 million or less.

    This is because of no fault of theirs, except that they were born in underprivileged families. Now if you have an estimate of the number of people in India who fall into this list, then probably you will understand what I meant.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Shoeb K
    1. When Dhirubhai Ambani was pumping oil in Aden, the global Marwari/ Bania diaspora picked him up as their new poster boy and every Bania/ Marwari/ Brahmin in government helped him, bent all rules, just to see one of their own succeed. Only thing that still remains to be explained is why, of all persons, they picked Dhirubhai.. but, my limited intelligence stops me from explaining this.
    2. When Sunil Mittal was trading in bicycle parts, in Ludhiana, the Banias again saw in him a potential winner, and the rest, as they say is history (read point 1 above).
    3. When Tagore courted worldwide fame as a poet, it was because he came from a landed zamindar family, brahmin to boot. Heck so was Vidyasagar, who was a Brahmin (of course, his family was very poor, but never mind, the caste made up for it).
    4. All the success of Azim Premji is traced back to the caste of his ancestors. If his ancestors came from any other caste, then he probably would not have even a oil business to start with and even if he did, would have run it ground.
    5. Kalpana Saroj is actually a closet Brahmin. She must be investigated to probe her ancestry.
    So, having understood the problem, let’s move to a caste-less, religion-less model of egalitarianism. We have some examples, like Cuba and North Korea. “To each according to his need, from each according to his ability”.
    Equal outcome is the goal. Even if the equal outcome is a pastoral existence for all of us. It will be bliss. Just do not take my internet away.

    Bobby Reply:

    Same set of arguments, and a reluctance to look at statistics. Be it the attitude of right wing in the US or India towards any statistics about the African Americans, women or lower castes.

    Its all merit you see. African Americans are dumb you see, so thats the reason their representation is so small in the academics or industry, unlike the hard working White Male. Not many women in academia and research…surely they are dumber…no discrimination at all. There is a higher percentage of blacks in prison, well of course blacks are predisposed towards crime. How dare you suggest that the police may be biased!!!!

    Same in our beloved land! the most tolerant nation that ever existed. The epitome of peaceful living as is propagated in the most benign books that mankind has ever wrtten – the great hindu scriptures… god bless us peaceful loving tolerant hindus…. Discrimination! what the hell is that! We are a nation living in peace and complete bhaichara. Can we help it if these a s s h ol es from the lower castes are not as smart as we upper castes are!

    I mean those idiotic biologists who claim that there is no “special smartness gene” in upper castes or white males must be nuts! cant they see!!!!!

    syed Reply:

    @gopi
    Now there is talk of opening multiplexes & women being allowed to drive, women are allowed to move alone now. There is tremendous stress on women’s education through opening of many many new women’s colleges and universities (There can be no better news than this). There are very liberal scholarships for Saudi women (even for going abroad!), Saudi music bands have started. Radical hatred spouting mullas have been sidelined and replaced by softer ones in mosques. (I know all this firsthand as my wife teaches in a university in SA).

    Why are these “dots” relevant. Simply because it indicates that SA under US pressure (make no mistake) is now opening up and consciously becoming less conservative. Of course things are not so hunky dory (You can’t undo 1400 years of living in a few years) and you do get quite a few instances of throwback to the old times. But the trend is definitely progressive.

    If the current trends are extrapolated into the future I feel that SA would look like any other place in the world. (Of course SA would always retain its some of its conservative elements (the haj revnues are pretty important for it). As conservative muslims in india are not immune to trends in SA you can expect them to follow along the lines of SA …

    To continue….

    Ashish Reply:

    Thank you Bobby; for amplifying the secular/ liberal argument and covering up for my lack of intelligence.
    Since we both agree on the problems, what’s your solution? North Korea and Cuba as models do for you? Or, if those are too utopian, even for you to contemplate, perhaps you would care to list a few intermediate solutions to get there? Any timeframes to achieve equal outcome?
    Just want to know; how “clear and imminent” is the danger from the likes of you running amok?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    The precursor to finding a solution is being honest about the facts and an acceptance of realities, which unfortunately is not the case, at least from the reaction of your ideological brothers.

    syed Reply:

    @ gopi & others
    @Gopi
    You are dead right in what you have written in your post. A lot of things in your post describe the symptoms of the problem. Here I am giving my take (and trying to keep it short) though it is the beginning….….

    Christianity and Judaism went through a modernization process and “civilized” their own religions. The Renaissance or reformation in Christianity started somewhere around 1400AD. Christians started looking towards for answers themselves, rather than to God & religion and religion stopped being the fulcrum of their lives. Incidentally they also stopped taking their texts literally.

    However reformation in Islam is stopped practically before it is born. Influential religious establishments like Al Azhar (Egypt) and Saudi Arabia (SA) funded Wahabis strongly oppose change and are never short of funds. No islamic institution allows reform as doing so would mean depriving them of their raison de etre. (We do have scattered dissent even from the establishment such as Ayatollah Boroujerdi of iran who advocates the separation of religion and state). I don’t know if you are aware, but most archaeological excavations are also not allowed in SA (new finds might upset the well established schools of thought in SA). Most Islamic theologians I know have never read a book other than their own religious ones. How will they have any worldview to speak about?

    Almost all Muslims remain unaware of the violent passages in the Koran and Hadith & rely on filtered messages from the mullas. Muslims who are aware of these passages are no different from modern Christians. They simply ignore them or interpret privately based on historical contexts.

    Now the issue is – how do we change or reform islam. In my view it is sufficient if muslims sto[p viewing the quran and hadith literally though it is easier said than done.

    SA is the most imp. spiritual centre for muslims and this reality is one we have to work with. If any change is to happen to mainstream islam it has to come from SA for its acceptance amongst muslims.
    The west (read USA) created Islamic radicals (Taliban) to eject the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. The end(?) result was Osama bin Laden and 9/11. The USA is THE main backer of Saudi Arabia – militarily, politically economically & in every other conceivable way. Just to give you an idea – the US maintains a sizeable military presence on Saudi soil on a permanent basis & SA has even pegged the Saudi riyal with the US dollar. In other words they have relinquished their economic independence to a large extent. The largest oil producer (Arabian American Oil Company – ARAMCO) is controlled by the US, US is the largest weapon supplier to SA, (SA gets the latest planes they can hardly fly) and so on.
    Hence US is the most important lever on SA. 9/11 has jolted the US into rethinking its relationship with SA. Since 9/11 the US leaned hard on SA to reinterpret or repackage islam. But the progress is extremely slow owing to the entrenched lobbies. However there are definite winds of change. For example the mutawa or religious police in SA has been defanged to a large extent. Toady a non expat woman can walk on the roads in SA sans head or face covering (only the lower covering is compulsory), TV channels are open (yes even por* channels are there though dish, though the provider is outside SA). Infact a city such as Riyadh, it appears only slightly different from any other city.
    To continue….

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Probably besides the central point; but, pegging the exchange rate to the dollar has nothing to do with losing economic soveregnity to US.
    As an example, Hong Kong has a dollar peg for the past many years. If at all they are dependent on any country for their ongoing prosperity, it is not US; but China.

    syed Reply:

    We might have a difference in opinion but I personally feel if a country does not have control over its money supply (M1, M2 & M3) and interest rate among other things, it is not in full control of its economy.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    In Asia, other than Hong Kong (and of course, several of the oil producing countries, SA included), Malaysia and China peg their currencies to the dollar.
    Last I heard, US was begging China to let its currency float; China pretty much dances to its own tunes, don’t you agree?
    You are of course right that having written off control on the exchange rate, you basically forsake the right to one tool to control money supply/ inflation. But, currency rate is by no means the only monetary instrument to control inflation.
    Anyways, like I said, this is not your central point; let’s just agree to disagree..

    syed Reply:

    @gopi, ashish

    Looking at trends, I feel that islam has reached its nadir and things can only get better. Wishful thinking would have me believe that democracy would take hold in the gulf but this cannot happen till there is oil (or till a suitable alternative to oil is found). The USA will never never let this happen as the gulf monarchs are in its hands. Democratic regimes have a bad habit of bothering too much about the interest of their country! For example USA overthrew the democratically elected secular regime of Mosaddeq of Iran because he nationalised the Iranian oil company (which was previously controlled by Britain) and installd the puppet shah of iran. Iran has gone downhill ever since.

    Democracy would also lead to a liberalisation of the thought process in Islamic countries and ultimately reform a religion which is stuck in a time warp. Contrary to popular opinion people in Islamic countries do not vote or support Islamic parties. For example I recall in the last election in Pakistan the Islamic parties got only around 2% of the vote. There is not reason to believe that the gulf population would vote any differently. Religion in the gulf is used more to control the population than anything else through severe restrictions in thought and action (obviously). However for the ruling monarchy and American citizens, no rules are applicable.

    Lots of thoughts still left but unfortunately there is no time. And finally I am sorry for writing in driblets. I wanted to write more and better but had severe time issues.

    Amit Reply:

    Syed,
    You have raised very good points. I, however, do not agree with you with respect to role of US vis-a-vis SA. I have met a lot of people from that part of world and the kind of attitude that they display when it comes to religion can depress anyone. It’s no wonder that US wouldn’t bother about reforming or trying to change the status quo in SA. And, to be fair, why should they? It’s not their job. The war in Iraq, for whatever rights or wrongs, has stabilized and the rule of that country left to Iraqis. And what are Iraqis doing now? They go on killing each other and reopening old wounds. From my conversations with people from Middle East, they have such a chip on their shoulders and all they do is smoke hookah and complain angrily, almost fainting when it comes to Israel Palestinian conflict. Plus, the kind of condescending attitude they reserve for people from South Asia, amazes me. The world of Islam would be better served if Muslims look elsewhere and not to SA. It is a blighted land.

    Syed Reply:

    @Amit
    The motive for the USA in “reforming” SA is purely selfish. If I recall correctly, 15 of the 19, 9/11 hijackers were from SA. Is this not enough incentive for the US to try to open up Saudi society and ensure that the conditions which nurture such ideology do not exist.

    I agree with you on the attitude the locals have on religion and their attitudes towards non saudis. Even my wife has been a victim!

    I for one wish that reformantion in Islam comes more at a country level instead of mainstream muslims looking towards SA, but as I have mentioned earlier, that is one reality we have to live with.

    Amit Reply:

    Syed,
    Unfortunately, that is precisely the same reasoning that the Hinduvta brigade gives when it comes to charitable institutions run by Christians. How does it matter if the motives of US are selfish. SA should reform because it’s good for them not because US wants it. Here, I would like to quote Deng Xiaoping:
    “It doesn’t matter the colour of the cat, as long as it catches the mice.”
    :)

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Bobby
    There are innate differenecs in peoples skills and capabilities. Black Americans/Africans are extremely good in team sports, athletics, boxing etc; however they are not good in swimming. They may become good swimmers, may be after hundreds of years of training.

    Indians are not good at sports == there is no meaning to lament about why a country of 1 bilion people cannot produce at least 10 world class atheletes. We seem to be good at Chess, and may eb we should promote that.

    If Africans were any good in running their countries, during the last fifty plus years of British and French leaving, tehyw ould have done magnificent jobs. Instead, all teh countries are basket cases, in spite of having lot of natural wealth.

    if Muslims had administrative and intellectual sense, the graet wealth of SAufdi Arbia will not be under the “kings” who were not kings before 1925, Egypt would not have had the same man running it like his own family property. Theerw ould have been widespread education, women professionals, leading universities.

    At our pown next door, democracy would have ben flourishing, in spite of problems they would have been progressing. There would have been at least one IIT type or IIM or IISc type institution, one respecte international company would have been started , armu would have been put in its palce etc etc..

    Unfortunately, genetically, all those people are followers and they lack leadership skills. It will be like that 100 years from bnow too,

    So, what is your suggestion to bring the lower strata up? Are there any practical solutions assuming everybody is on board? ..Should the country suspend merit based admuissions for 10 years? 15 years? Should teh country start special colleges to develop various skills ina ddition to subject skills? Say on the model of Rishi VAlley schools, but aimed at highere ducation reserved for ceratin disadvantaged section? Should Chief Ministership be reserved? (Mayawati’s UP is worse than her predecessor’s UP). It may be a good idea for you to put three=four proposals; hope fully theer will be one or two that may work.

    Listen, nobody is against everybody doing well. But everybody cannot be equal. Theer is only one CEO in a company; only one CFO, only one head of sales. So, in every organization, theer will be apyramid, and generally the best contributor will rise.
    So your solutions cannot be socialism, and redistribution etc; unless we want India to be liek North Korea, Cuba, and old soviet countries, old east germany etc. You can suggest any number of things that will make us like Suth Korea., Certain elemnts of Chinese model are fine; however, they will have to work within a democratic framework.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    Which world do you guys live in?

    “If Africans were any good in running their countries,….”,

    This is the same argument the Europeans once had to continue colonial rule. Which is to say that the Asians cant run their own country. Yet does any one believe it for a second today? One sees the same argument in the US a century back about the capability of blacks, yet today there is an African American as the president of the US. And if you go back a few decades there are such questions raised about women, we all know what a load of c r a p this argument is today.

    “if Muslims had administrative and intellectual sense,… ”

    My dear sir, Arabs were indeed at the front of civilization for several hundred years, so your statement is proved wrong to begin with.

    When a group of people are doing statistically worse, then the reasons are usually environmental and social and not because of the lack of some innate qualities.

    Nobody is saying that all people have the same capabilities, but to reach a situation where individuals perform according to their innate talents, one has to first remove the obvious social biases and environmental inequalities. Before one does that we cannot even begin to speak of innate talents.

    Imagine a race, where some are running with a heavy load tied to their feet, can we ever conclude from the results as to who was the best athlete?

    My opinion is that we are far from that stage in India.

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    Other than compalining, you have not given four ways we can improve the lower strata (or if you do not like t”improving the lower strate” ebcause they are alraedy developed, whatever is the right destination status)..What should be done, so we can grow more and bring up all …History cannot be changed, we can go on ***** about it..

    So, how many more years one will give to African countries? Until disease and poverty and terrorism make all of them failed states? Another 50 years? Another 100 years?

    How is India doing well ( obviously you will disagree on the “wellness”) in spite of India was colonised, not by one western country, but by three? British left Arab countries long before they left India, and why is Egypt so backward in spite of them having a glorious past?

    Colonialism is an easy fodder. I am not justifying or condoning colonialism. We are not, and will never be an “all equal world”. Strong will always exert power or privilege. Somebody will always be first. That is the natural order. There are hunters and hunted.

    Although US has a very capable and highly intelligent and articulate mixed race President (if he were born in Kerala, he would take his mother’s lineage,a nd he will be classified “white” and use his mother’s last name), the blacks will always be behind in the race, and for most part distincta nd separate. A true integartion will never happen unless people marry each other, and these marriages will always remain in lo single digits percentage. It simply is difficult for a white amn (woman) to fall in love with a black. And the govt cannot legislate these things. (Idi Amin tried to integarte Indians and Ugandans, all the Indian business people left Uganda and settled in US buying motels, and now they are the largest motel owning group in USA).

    Please come up with three-four suggestions as to how we acn expand the pie and ensure all are progressing and sharing.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    I think you live in wonderland. There is no point in disturbing you from such a place.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    I think I get the gist. What are your suggestions/ideas to alleviate the anomalies? Is it a China model, where the party controls while people also develop, where there are forced movements of people from one region to another region and no citizen rights? Is it a Zimbawe model where the strong man takes over everything and people are in a far worser situation? Is there a model of sufficient scale that we can look forward to and deploy?

    Obviously, customs, languages, lifestyles, food habits etc are all different in all parts of India. So, any meaningful program will have to take into account these differences to make them penetrate and be accepted.

    Do you have practical ideas that the Central and state governments and private industry should adopt now discarding the models they may be pursuing now? .

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Syed Bro,

    Sorry, if you misunderstood, my response was actually a secular guess- and surprise surprise – I was not wrong.

    The response you have recd (from SECULAR Prophet) is hardly different. In fact, I edited out some of the stuff I had originally written but never mind the Real secular response has ‘admirably’ covered up for my ‘edits’

    [Reply]

  • Shoeb K

    Hello SKS

    From one RECian to another — Jai Hind:

    I am delighted about the “happenings”.. It simply is unbelieveable.

    One example of how the system works in spite of all our shortcomings — the three bachelor degree Engineering branches have grown into 9 bachelor, masters,a nd PhD program plus Masters/PhD in Mathematiccs and Physics. 5 hostels have grown into 12 hostels. Centers of Computing, BioTechnology, and Nanotechnology have ben opened. There are semester exchange programs with European companies. There are idea competition weeks where venture capitalists and companies participate and pick promising ideas…

    I, in my wildest imagination, would not have thought all these were possible in the “corrupt” system we have… Another proof that things are going in the right track..It simply is unbelievable.. I am delighted..

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @zia haq
    I am extremely sorry zia for hijacking your blog. Hope you dont mind….

    [Reply]

  • gopi thomas

    @Bobby

    I disagree. “madrasa type religious education, something like compulsory Friday prayers, learning Arabic. (the language of teh Holy Book).” is NOT true of any other major (or minor) religion, other tahn Islam.. Hinduism does not have a madrasa-type religious school where kids generally go after-shool; whatever they learn “religious” is through observation of their parents. In fact 99.99% Hindus may not even have read Bhagavad Gita; people who want to raed it may read, (if they know Sanskrit) ;but theer is no “requirement” to read any of its great books. Sanskrit is a dead language from a spoken perspective, nobody learns Sanskrit anymore(and it has been like this for hundred plus years). There is no “must go” temple days. The Temple priests do not hold an influential position. Each Hindu is free to decide what he wants to do in terms of paryers and worship; he can worship a tree, a God, Jesus Christ, Prophet Muhamed (if Musllims wont kill him for worshipping), Shirdi Baba, Sai Baba, Ajmer Baba, Alphonsomma, Velankanni Mata.. Every Hindu has a “custom design” on how he wants to pursue his life; most of them plainly busy in guaranteeing a better life for their children. .Christians, while not as “free” as Hindus, pursue various affiliations = some of them are Pope affilaited, some of them are Eastern orthodox affilaited, aome of them are non-affiliated affiliated (like baptists and pentecostals) . A lot of differences are the way Mother Mary is positioned; also in lithrgical practices, languages used in church functions, and who are all “called on” for blssings during prayers. The Sunday “must” church attendence is dwindling . In Europe, ,amy churches are closing down.

    If the spread of western “scientific” ceducation diminished the hold of religion on many Hindus and Christians in India,a nd westerners in general, how come it did not impact Muslims, at least in India? They were under the same British system as the other segments for 200 plus years. They had similar access in the post independence period (you may say not as much, nevertheless, still a critical mass). And prior to British, 700 years of Moghul rule or Nizam rule = wheer again, everybody had the same access of whatever was there, if not “western scientific”. So, how did the “western scientific” education miss Muslims in india?

    I agree with you that no religion is more enlightened than any other religion. All religions preach the same thing – love, compassion, righteousness and all those monkey businesses.

    However I have to say that the followers (“follower” may not be the correct word, may be the right word is “Adherents”) of certain religions (may be almost all religions except one) are statistically signifiacntly more enlightened than the followers of one particular religion.. The events unfolding in front of us all over the world, and what happened in the last 50 years amply demonstrate this.

    It is a big bad (and sad) sign when people live for religion while foregetting to live religiously. They lose life and religion!

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Dear Gopi,

    The religious among the Hindus, indeed do learn several hindu texts, epics and mantras by rote. The fact that this number is far less today, is simply because people give less importance to religion in the first place….and not due to any innate qualities of hinduism. I cant see why this sounds so unbelievable to you guys? This is precisely what religion is. If it was anything but blind faith, then it would not be religion!

    “If the spread of western “scientific” ceducation diminished the hold of religion on many Hindus and Christians in India,a nd westerners in general, how come it did not impact Muslims, at least in India?”

    This is a apparently meaningful question, therefore firstly we should ask if this is right. The answer is its No. Its not “Hindus” who were educated. It was the upper castes among hindus, and as well as the ex royality and upper castes among muslims and christians who were educated.

    Now the people who were not educated were the lower castes…of all religions. It so happens that most Indian muslims are converts, from these lower castes. There are a few upper caste hindu converts to Islam and Christianity, and I think they are well educated. Conversion usually does not change the social realities much.

    These upper caste hindus and muslim elite were the ruling class before the British came, and they simply appropriated the new knowledge, their colonial masters had brought with them….and thus they continue to rule after the ex masters left , just as they used to before the british had come to India.

    [Reply]

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @Bobby

    Yes, it does not have anything about innate quality of Hindusim; but it has a lot to do with the innate qualities of Hindus. Blind faith in the right things is not a wrong thing. It so happems some of the followers of one of the religions have blind faith in the wrong thing..

    Christians were converts. Muslims were converts. Christians do tremendously well. Theya re the most educated, richest community in Kerala, with 18% or so of the pouplation. Muslims trail them only by 600 years(in a kerala context); but their educational level, while better than the Islamic counterparts in the rest of india, is significantly less than teh Christian achievement. And it has nothing to do with the local chieftains not allowing them to go to school.

    A mind is aterrible thing to waste. I hope the four or five idaes/plans you will list to raise the strata will include specifics on educational improvement, over and above our edu min Sibil has proposed (all of his plans seem to eb quite good if implemented right)

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “but it has a lot to do with the innate qualities of Hindus.”

    Dear Gopi,……have a good day.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    in case you haven’t already, please look into a couple of weeklies:
    1. First, the Economist has a survey on Indonesia; lots of good data and perspectives.
    2. The recent Oulook has an article on Wakf properties; of particular interest is an interview with Mateen, the Delhi Wakf board chairman (??)… it’s a gem.
    Man, there is some serious leadership issue here..

    @SKS, Gopi, Syed et al.. on a lighter note, please check out http://www.Imhalal.com it rocks!

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    1) Well, will see the economist
    2) Deja vu. I think i have mentioned about the total lack of leadership amongst the muslim community. Half of lucknow was owned by the muslims but they have been v successful in giving most of it away not even for a pittiance. Some of the mutawalis have given away crores worth of property to the Govt. merely for getting to use a government ambassador car which was taken back later.
    3) the website really rocks.

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    As an aside, just look at the muslim community in india – economically insignificant, morally down, uneducated, totally at loggerheads even with each other, beset with every problem you can think of & people like sam are actually scared of them! Never ceases to amaze

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Syed
    What Muslims in India fail to understand is that people want everybody to do well. While some individuals may ahve walls, in general, Indian society (alls ects) are quite accepting and accepting successful peopel, communities. As I said repeatedly in these columns, Christians, although a minority in Kerala, is quite well respected; no Hindu ever complaints about their wealth or tehir accomplishments. Parssees in Mumbai. Sikhs are universally liekd for their hard work and industriousness.

    I think people like Sam are afraid because of the “perception issues” perpretated by Muslim leaders and Muslim groups. The original blog started with the premise by zia “if only Majority community cahnges their perception of Muslims”. But in my analysis; it is for Muslims, through their various demonstarted externals – like outfits, embrace of local language/English, naming of associations (just last week they formed a group here “Ma’dinnu Ssaqafalhill Isamiyya charity” — now you figure out why would not eb Sam be afraid — would he accept, embrace or would he view with some hesitation?) etc etc..
    The perception change responsibility ahs to come from Muslims.

    syed Reply:

    @Gopi thomas
    I like your posts gopi, you are a straight talker and call a spade a spade without any rancour. I also understand what you are trying to say and feel you have a valid issue.

    The issue we are looking at is how to change perceptions which in my mind would neccessarily require muslims to integrate with the local community. They should understand that integration does not mean losing their religious identity. Only small steps are required such as you have mentioned. The benefits however would be tremendous.
    Actually what am tryng to grapple with is how to achieve this objective and i think the best and only way is for like minded people like us to take the lead.
    Incidentally muslims in lucknow are quite well integrated. The issues you speak of lie in other places.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed.
    One of the reasons I pointed to the recent Economist survey on Indonesia is that some of the obvious irritants from integration has been removed there.
    In a predominantly Muslim country (not counting Bali), most names are Hindu and the culture is quite a melting pot.
    One quote was quite clear as to why Indonesians are so peaceful: “Indonesia’s main strength in fighting extremism, however, has been its own tradition of moderation and tolerance. Having absorbed influences from pre-Islamic faiths—Hinduism and indigenous beliefs—its version of Islam has been less doctrinaire than elsewhere in the Muslim world.”

    Of course extremism rears its ugly head every now and then. As in Malaysia, there is a worrying tendency of competing for the radical vote. But, by and large, Muslims and Christians (and others) largely cohabit peacefully. The 2 dominant Muslim organizations NU and Muhammadiyahs have always resisted calls to introduce Shariah and indeed into making Indonesia a Islamic state.
    Incidentally, most Indonesian Muslims are Sunnis :-)

    @Syed, Sam is not (and this is just a guess!) afraid of the “huddled masses” of Muslims that you portray. All of us are afraid of violence and rightly or wrongly (such an endless debate, isn’t it?) we feel that Islam is producing highly motivated foot-soldiers who draw upon their religious teachings to spread violence and hatred.
    I have no quarrel with Muslims; most of them would be as meek or as law-abiding and indeed too worried about how to feed their families as followers of any other religion. However, in present times, no other religion I know of, has such an over-riding identity over and above nation, language and what have you.
    I read Omair Ahmad’s deeply moving essay in the last issue of “Open”. Mr Ahmad mentions a cousin who went to fight “genocide” against Muslims in Europe. Without getting into a debate about what happened in Bosnia and the ethics and rights and wrongs of his action, tell me how many Hindus swam across the Palk Strait to intervene in Sri Lanka during those terrible decades of ethnic conflict? Or, indeed, how many times have we, Bengali Hindus agitated for going into Bangladesh to avenge the religious persecution there?

    The meek shall inherit the earth, Syed. At least, as a meek Hindu, I certainly hope so!

    gopi thomas Reply:

    @Syed

    The Indonesian exampllel which Ashish mentions seems to be a good example that can be tried. We should also point to how other minorities have grown, integrated without compromising on their religious beliefs – Christians in kerala have done wonders for tehmselves and for the country while maintaining five robust sects of christianity. So also Sikhs. Also, noteworthy accomplishments or operating model of say, Kerala Muslism or Tamil Muslims should be used as models for, say, Bihar and Up Muslims development.

    I would recommend a committed volunteer group be formed whose main objective is “Improve yourselves, wake up, work for yourself”. Select four or five geographic areas (distric, sections of an urban area etc). Organize a networked (thru Facebook etc) network of highly motivated volunteers. They will come from professioanl areas (doctors, nurses, engineers, lawyers etc), teaching, govt service, business. The volunteers will be divided into two groups – an outreach group and a tarining/mentoring group. The training group can have non-Muslims as members, while the outreach group, at least in the beginning will have only Muslim volunteers. People like yogender Saket should be included as advisory board member to tap into his knowledge of regional differences. The volunteer group will undertake several activities. Most of the activities will be leadership oriented and not a massive educatioanl initiative. The focus will be on students in the 9th grade and up, and adults.

    _ informing about opportunities, how educatioanl accomplishmnets open the doors etc done as a part of the outreach progarm by an accomplished person from that community. Ideally teh volunteer will visit schools and meetw ith small groups ofs tudents.
    - selecting students (including poor non-muslim students) for specuial math, science, english etc training and mentoring them throughout high school plus first few years of colege (and when they are in college, theys hould take few high school kids under their wings )
    - encouraging students to particpate in he school group activities (sports, arts). Encouraging girls to study dance, music etc. Even arrange for a dance class or music class. USe Christian Community achievement, integartion etc as examples. They did not lose their religion because they learned dance or classical music.

    - Encourage speaking sessions, in conjunction with moderate groups, as to how democracy, nation-state, womens education/jobs, coexistence with other groups etc can operate without violating the tenets of Islam.

    - always use examples of leaders who have come up from disadvantaged or Muslim background- Dr Kalam, Premji, Farid Zakaria, Shah ruh, AR REhman etc
    - Talking with local Msulim charity organizations about naming future charities in indian or English names and not Arabic names . Let them know that forming organizations with names like “Itihud Mojahideen” or “Ma’dinu Ssaqafallhil Isamiya” makes them distant form teh larger community. They should eb made aware they have the right to name anything or wear naything; but no lasting value or growth is achieved by these exclusioanry activities.

    - monitor spending of govt money for minority developmental activities in the particular area.

    - Have womens health/chlld rearing semianrs. Float teh ideas like a boy’s name can be Vimal Abubaker and a girl’s name can be Sandhya Fathima (I hope Quran does not ahve explicit ayas against these!)

    _ the focus will be on gtass roots action, no blame game..
    More to come…I will put all points into a workable, implemntable document….

    Akhil Reply:

    So what is the problem if they name in arabic or some other language. All christians schools asr alo named after this or that saint which has no whatsoever link with India…………..can u name any missionary school or institution which is named in indian language or name something to do with india. And there motto is always something which is completely inunderstandable language like latin (never saw sanskrit or hindi motto at missionary schools) (I am mainly focussing on north with my claim, u may come with some example from “kerala”)

    So when u are out to debate atleast dont give christian examples. I know muslims are getting exotic slowly but christianity is complete outlandish to our culture specially for NORTH!!

    Sam Reply:

    Islam has a violent past and still has.

    For example people have to be scared of violent philosophies.

    Islam is all about violence at its core.

    If you think otherwise, please educate your fellow muslims in Gulf, UK, Malaysia,… first.

    Then rectify atleast some of the past violence in India (I only see justifications, forget about even accepting violence).

    Please do that first.

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    Indonesia’s (and other countries & places) tradition of moderation and tolerance is exactly what the wahabi movement seeks to remove. Since they are well organised, well funded and motivated, they are dangerous.
    I agree that there are muslims who leave their country to go fight jehad in other countries. Quite frankly I cannot understand the mentality. To make things easier for myself here, I would like to mention that there are no such issues with shia muslims.

    As for the meek inheriting the earth, personally I think there would not be any difference between a meek hindu or a meek muslim

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed
    Touche’

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Syed

    Very good analysis.

    However, USA and UK will no more be platforms for the radicals who will be preaching against KSA, Egypt etc from their soil. Mullahs like Omar nd Bakr etc were able to freely preach jihad and other ways of taking over corrupt middle eastern governments. Not any more. So, in a sense, change will be even more difficult and time consuming.

    The only solution is for moderates like us to assert and take ove instead of remaining quiet and witnessing the hijack of the religion by these mullahs. . Something akin to the reformation has to happen if the religion has to survive in any modicum.

    syed Reply:

    check this..
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3015

    Bobby Reply:

    Well its very good that moderates “like you” are trying to “take over the religion from the mullahs”…in fact I have no doubt that you wont be the first, they have always tried so.

    The trouble is that unlike what is being made out here, the bigger problem is hindu fundamentalism, and the growing influence of the hindutva brigade. Unless this organization’s influence does not wane in this country, I am afraid, the mullahs will always be able to play on the valid fears of the muslims to get their support.

    Sam Reply:

    Hindutva Brigades are not launching terrorist acts in their neighoring islamic countries.

    They are not asking for special rights to sleep with lots of woman..

    So take your preaching or fear mongering to KSA, where you can collect some money.

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    Is there hindu fundamentalism in majority countries also. And what about muslim majority countries where there is no foreign interference?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    In any country majority fundamentalism is always more dangerous. What I said was in the Indian context.

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    See what gopi is saying, he has valid issues. I dont think there is hindu fundamentalism in Kerala or w bengal. however in these states also muslims are at the bottom in every way.

    At the end of the day it is upto the community to work for the upliftment of its own.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    As I have said before, no one is saying that Muslims are not behind other communities in India. These are well documented facts.

    However It seems to me absolutely illogical that any person be he/she hindu, muslim christian or sikh would not want his/her children to do well, be educated etc. Its a bogus claim.

    Secondly about the issue of muslims being under the influence of the Mullahs, well I always have problems with such unsubstantiated claims. What evidence is there to show that such a claim is true? How many muslims educate their children in madarassas? Mr Zia Haq had quoted a very small percentage. If that is true, then clearly Madarsa education is not having much impact on them.

    Liberal muslims exist in plenty in India. One can give any number of examples to prove this. That is just not the issue.

    Thirdly, How do you explain that “lower caste hindus” are also far below in all development scores? They are not Muslims, right?

    Different communities have done badly at different points of time. That does not mean that people in those communities are lazy bums or have some intrinsic failing in them which prevents them from doing well. The reasons are usually environmental, and yes also social biases.

    Finally , I have to say that I completely disagree with Mr Thomas’s definition of Integration. In his very first post, he makes the claim that Indians should respect and be proud of the Upanishads. In some other post he says that people should have names like Sunil and Anil. In yet another post he says that people having Arabic names for various centers breeds fear!!!!!!!!

    As an aside, the last statement is actually quite similar to what Mr Varun Gandhi had to say about some people having “darawana naam”

    Many of the things Mr Thomas actually says is akin to blaming the act of a woman getting raped to her wearing a short skirt! Even though nuts like Bal Thackarey have indeed in the past taken such a stand, I don’t endorse it.

    I am sorry, but I feel that Mr Thomas is confusing “imbibing majoritarian culture” with inclusivity. Upanishads are upper caste hindu books. Sunil, Anil are not the type of names which people in several parts of India , including the North East give to their children. Whether some one gives Arabic names to shops or centers should have no bearing to hindu-muslims relations, at least in a civilized society.

    My understanding of India is that its a multicultural society. Its culture is not Hinduism! Its culture is defined by what is practised by all its people. It is made up of the hindu cultural beliefs practised by upper caste hindus, the beliefs of the Dalits and Adivasis (which , to repeat, is NOT hinduism), the Islamic culture, which has as much right to be called Indian as does the upper caste hindu culture, buddhist, animist and christian beliefs among many others.

    There is an attempt to claim all this multicultural facets as due to the inherent tolerance of “hinduism”. Thats just not true, unless by hinduism you mean everything Indian, which is of course a useless definition of Hinduism. Indian multiculturalism is due to historical mixing of races and religions in India over centuries.

    Finally, In India the major threat to religious integration is the hatred filled ideology of the Hindutva brigade. And its not due to any innate hindu intolerace, but rather because Majority fundamentalism is always more dangerous and can prove to be more fatal. This has been increasing over the last two decades, and its effects are reaching to places which were far removed once from their effects, in particular Kerala.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    My statement was in the context of India. There is no universal solution to problems. In any country, always Majority fundamentalism is more dangerous.

    Bobby Reply:

    oops , sorry…i thought my first comment did not get posted!

  • Bobby

    I don’t think Islam is reaching its Nadir, while all the other “great religions” are progressing in leaps and bounds. Yes there is an issue of not having enough democratic movements in the Islamic countries, but the reasons are more political and not much related to the religion per se.

    It is not true that Islam is a monolith. Just like other religions, Islam did take on the flavor of the local cultures. In India for instance it has taken on a very syncretic form. Sufism and the Bhakti movement have impacted each other greatly in India.

    It has had a lot of positive influence on Hinduism in the form of reformers who tried to remove the caste system from Hinduism. Kabir is someone who is respected by both hindus and muslims. There are many muslim peers who are worshipped by hindus as dieties.

    In rajasthan there are communities who are converts from hindus, who still follow all hindu rituals, and would be almost indistinguishable from other hindus.

    In kerala, according to legends, the god Ayyapan had a Muslim devotee and friend called vavar and pilgrims udnergoing the sabarimala yatra still go his temple on the way.

    The amarnath shrine according to local folklore was first found by a muslim shepherd, looking for his goat. The shops along the way of the yatra are all owned by muslims and so are most of the other support staff.

    Perhaps the most important intermingling of Islam and local culture has been in the area of hindustani music. Even today most muslim performers are also devotees of saraswati. One spectacular, though not isolated example is the great shehnai player, Ustaad bismillah khan, who considers himself to be a devotee of Saraswati and whose interviews reveal his love of the Ganga, and of Varanasi, and its culture.

    I mean how much proof does one want before one can see clearly that Islam in India has taken on a local flavor????

    The hardening of identities is a very modern phenomenon, and its not a phenomenon that is happening in the Muslim communities. Its very transparent in the hindu community, which is taking on an extremely militant form.

    In no way is Islam any worse or better than other religions. Obviously any military power which has ruled for as long as muslim rulers have across the world, would have several skeletons in its cupboard. Is that surprising? NO! But one should not forget the very important role it played as the centers of learning during the middle ages, in keeping science, and the fine arts alive when the West was in its dark ages.

    Finally, while this is beside the main point of the text, I cant but point out that the following statement is absolute nonsense.

    “the Original Indus valley thought process (which later got labeled as Hinduism)”,

    There is no proof what so ever that the Indus valley had anything to do with the hindu religion. Its not even clear whether the Indus people had any religious beliefs at all.
    At best, Hinduism as developed by the Aryans tribes coming in from Central Asia may have taken up some local flavor, but the crux of the new religion had nothing to do with the Indus civilization what so ever as far as we know today.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Islam as a political philosophy has to vanish.

    Also tthere should be a poll conducted in India.

    Q: Is India better off with or without partition ?
    Q: Is India better off with or without Islam ?

    (the same questions can be asked a global scale)

    These are complex questions, but a final yes or no, will tell what islam has contributed for the progress or only in new types of violence to the whole world ?

    Currently the whole world looks at Islam as a breeding ground for terrorists, as terrorists get inspired by the violent verses. It has all the infrastructure and assembly line for creating violent and people full of hate..

    So it is not not just the perception.

    Please make a list of all the violent muslims terrorist activities (please pick only religiously inspired ones first) and everyone sees what I am talking about..

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Bobby

    Aren’t we a lttle disingenuous when we say “there is an issue of not having enough democratic movements in the Islamic countries; but the issue is more political and nothing to do with religion”. When you say “not enough” you imply close to enough, but in reality, there is no democracy at all. How many of the 51 or so OIC countries are democratic? And religion has everything to do with that.

    The only Muslims participating in a democratic process may be Indian muslims (I would guess Turkey too) during the last sixty two years of democracy in India.

    We have to live for the now, present ,and for future. When confronted and criticized, we tend to rationalize with the golden age of Islam. The elite in Islam still think they are in the golden age while their populations are left behind. And for todays TV and internet generation, the concept of Islam is a throw away, left behind violent gang who want to bring down the world; not as descendents of a golden age. They see these crazies in beards exhorting violence against innocent infidels, suppressing their women. And these true followers run through the whole world killing women and children, many of them Muslims themselves. Young boys explode themselves.

    Just today, more Muslims in the world were killed by Muslims rather than any other groups. And it has been liek this for a while; and will continue like this!

    Western world has even coined a new term “Islamo Fascism” explaining this murderous thuggery going on from Europe to Africa to Asia.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @bobby,
    I don’t know on what basis you state that islam is not reaching its nadir. If you do a muslim- country by country analysis, there is hardly any country which will measure up to the potential it has. Oil revenues have enabled many muslim countries to paper over a lot of issues, but for how long? Its only a matter of time before an alternative fuel is found in the context of global warming.

    I agree, there has been a lot of shared culture between muslims and hindus but this is dwindling mainly due the action of muslims. I have seen it in india with the tableegi jamat and wahabi followers – they retreat into themselves. Gopi’s experiences are telling in the manner in which muslims are isolating themselves in Kerala. Despite what you would have me believe, there is no such largescale pan india movement amongst hindus or christians or any other religion.

    Now coming to the golden age of Islam, I checked up in Wikipedia on the social conditions of the “Golden Age” and this is what I got – pasting…….

    “Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.
    Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[5] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, ….”

    I think you will agree that there is not much difference in approach between then & and today’s modern secular liberal democracy. In other words, if you want another “Golden Age” you need to more or less recreate similar conditions – Translated – keep the mullas at an arms length.

    [Reply]

    Arfat Reply:

    what about Australian?indians r atacked by them..???

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Shoeb,

    Maybe you think that Islam or the Quran has some amazing hypnotic power and hold on the people who read it which other religious texts don’t have. I find that absolutely ridiculous and untrue, therefore I don’t think Islam as a religion has anything to do with the current state of Islamic countries.

    You must not forget that democracy and human rights itself evolved little over a century back. Till then most European and Asian societies were undemocratic. Nepal a predominantly hindu country was a Hindu kingdom till recently. How do you understand these facts within the paradigm of your worldview?

    Its a fact that one of the reasons for the Middle eastern countries not being democracies was that the western governments have actually supported the kingdoms there, and helped suppressed the democratic movements in these countries. These are not my views, they are documented facts as declassified US documents show.

    Two blatant examples are what happened in Iran and what is happening in Palestine. A crystal clear example of this is seen in the mindless support the US provides to the Israeli governments terrorist actions against Palestinian civilians.

    Nevertheless the democratic forces are still fighting back, as is very clearly seen in Iran recently for instance.

    Democracy, human rights, protection of minority rights are not some abstract concepts which only some cultures appreciate and understand. To suggest that is in my opinion, racist.

    Its only a matter of time when you will indeed see full fleged democracies in these Islamic countries. Please maintain a longer time line than a few decades.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Despite what you would have me believe, there is no such largescale pan india movement amongst hindus or christians or any other religion…”

    nor among muslims.

    Syed Reply:

    @bobby
    “Despite what you would have me believe, there is no such largescale pan india movement amongst hindus or christians or any other religion…”
    nor among muslims.

    —-Then what are the tablegi jamat & wahabis. I know them and have been interacting with them regularly.

    Are they not pan india (& pan world) movements?

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Allthough I an optimist; it looks like I will remain a racist.

    I honestly believe, based on my lifetime observations, that Islamic countries don’get it, and most probably will not get it ever. Optimism and hope are good; but not as startegies.

    And if you maintain Islam and Quran do not have any control on its followers, you are living in another planet. Just watch the videos (we like those videos of youngsters making their statements just before they leave to explode themselves; but we dont like somebody drawing a picture of the Prophet) ; they are reciting Ayahs justifying their marrtyrdom.

    L Mirza Reply:

    Bobby

    There is no minority right in Saudi Arabia. My friend could not even bring a “Ganesha” picture; they confiscated it at the airport. Nobody can construct any places of worship other than mosques.

    Women cannot do any work other than as doctors, nurses,and teachers. King Abdullah seems to be a moderate and trying to relax; however, he is very old, and all the proinces who are rumoured to take his place are significantly more conservative, and will roll back whatever Abdulla puts in place.

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Absolutely. Your quote on the golden age shows the “ecosystems” that are needed for a flourishing culture. How did USA become a dominant power – science, industry, literature, education – in a small farme of 200 years? People from all cultures worked together,, exchanged ideas, and boom! Indian history is no different either. Indian kings welcomed all from various parts, they settled and contributed.

    Our problem is our own. We have to own it and work it. Blaming otherts is not going to take us anywhere; it will put us only further backward . And it is not an India only problem. it is a worldwide Islamic problem.Why are Pakistani Muslims backward (I read somewhere the only thing of progress (?), something quantifiable in the last 10 yerars there, is the 40,000 madrasas funded with Saudi Arabian help!) Why is Pakistan is teetering and has become an almost failed state while its twin sister is moving along nicely? why is Saudi Arabia backward even with their oil money (well, 15,000 “princes”; half of them terrorists ,control the darn country!)?

    We have problems in majority countries (where we think we are minority); we have problems in minority countries (where we want to be majority thinking all problems will just disappear if only we were the majority). This attitude and affiliation evolve from the central code of the Prophet and Caliphs who were primarily rulers and organizers. We are always looking for a savior, who will solve our problems – a “government” , or preferably a dictator or a King. Muslim countries are the only countries where Kings still rule! I wonder if Quens can ever rule these countries, or is it always males? (I hope a reader of this blog will clarify this. Can Saudi arbia, jordan, Morocco etc have Queens as absolute monarchs?)

    Look around all of us! Countries stretched from Pakistan all the way to Africa… Pakistan, afghanistan, middle eastern countries, Egypt, somalia, Sudan, yemen., Chad etc etc …. It should be an interesting study f why the Islamic countries of the Ottoman empire are still in a la-la land compared to the european part of the empire.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Look guys, I feel we are saying the same thing. I completely agree that there is a serious lack of human rights in most Muslim majority countries. I am saying that Islam has little to do with it, just as much as Christianity or hinduism has very little to do with the west or India having a better record in this regard.

    The Saudi administration exists largely because the US supports it. I believe that these countries indeed have dissident culture in them, where people do disagree with the state of affairs in those countries. One obviously example is Iran, as was witnessed recently. But its hard for these movements to do much in an environment where the constitution of the country is so harsh against them. Its much easier in the US, Europe or India. Just like it would be hard in any dictatorial regime like in North Korea.

    Just look at precisely this example of North Korea…same race as south korea. Can anyone ever come to the conclusion that there is something in the “North-korean gene” that makes them less prone to democracy while the South Koreans..same race are such a vibrant democracy?? I think the lesson is quite clear.

    So I have no doubt that there must be a good proportion of “liberal musilims” most definitely in all these Islamic countries, just like “democracy loving North koreans” must exist. The main issue is to support them, especially given the environment they work in. Blaming Islam is not a good way to go about it.

    And completely beside the topic, just from the constant use of the phrase “we” by Shoeb, I am assuming that he may have mistaken me to be a muslim. I am not.

    L Mirza Reply:

    Bobby:

    There is a South korea to compare to North Korea; so one can safely say the vibrancy is not the result of people being different, or because of korean Budhism; but because of the the different systems.

    However, all Muslim countries fall on the same side of the ledger – bad, failed, backward, illiterate etc.. There is not a single example. so, I can see how people can form an opinion, right or wrong, that “muslims have a problem in running countries”

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    “I think you will agree that there is not much difference in approach between then & and today’s modern secular liberal democracy. In other words,…. – keep the mullas at an arms length.”

    That my dear sir, is what I have been saying all along. The point of the example of the contribution of Islam in the middle ages, was to just point out to some people here, who seem to think that “Islam is the problem”, that neither is Islam the problem , nor is it the solution to anything. Same for hinduism, Christianity or every other religion you can think of.

    best regards.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    If Islam is not the cause of violence or as you say Islam is not the cause of the problem….

    Please go and preach that to the mullahs, govt’s in Muslim countries.

    That is the right place for you ideas.

    Your ideas of preaching to predominantly Hindu and other religions is only to whitewash the fact.

    Please tell how islam is peace to your buddies in KSA, pakistan, Afghanistan, other OIC countries..

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    See, the issue is not islam, christianity or hinduism per se. Basically I am not bothered what the texts in Islam or any other religion say, whether they are violent, support democracy/ polygamy or not etc. etc. This is not a polemic discussion.

    What is important, as you have mentioned, is the approach. In other words people of any religion who keep the mullas, pundits and priests at bay would tend to be the same. Implying thereby that a religion should be a personal issue and not be involved in running a country.

    The crux of the issue is that that most muslims do not keep the mulla at an arms length which is what bothers people on this blog.

    As you can see, the golden age in islam involved doing just that – This is now called separation of religion from state.

    Bobby Reply:

    “that a religion should be a personal issue and not be involved in running a country.”….”The crux of the issue is that that most muslims do not keep the mulla at an arms length which is what bothers people on this blog.”

    I am sorry to say this, but if in the Indian context, people don’t see that , as you say, “involving religion into politics” is precisely what the hindutva forces are doing, when they waste no time in highlighting every irrelevant detail when it comes to muslim behaviour, sounds totally hypocritical to me.

    You cannot have a serious discussion on understanding muslim behaviour in this country, without taking into account the impact of the hindutva organizations on society in general. Any discussion on this topic therefore, which ignores this crucial point is just meaningless.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @ Bobby @ Syed

    Today, Sir Richard Henriques, a high court judge in UK, sentenced Abdullah Ahmed Ali, Assad Sarwar, Tanvir Hussain, and Umar Islam for 30-40 years of life imprisonment for their Iinvolvement in the plot in 2007 to detonate 7 airplanes (potentially killing 2,500 peopel) over the Atlantic. These were all Pakistani born muslims living in UK except two who were born in UK to Pakistani parents. All these people stated that as believers in Quran and Islam they had to do this because of the world’s injustice to Islam.

    These are some of the statements made by them in an interview: “Even if Taliban is destroyed, it does not mean they lost in the eyes of Allah. Victory is not determined in this world. it is the afterlife that counts. Why did the sahaba lose the battle of Uhud and were almost routed at the battle of Hunain when the Prophet was with them? …………..so really it does not matter if they ruled only for 2-3 years. They tried their best to implement the laws of Allah…” They talked about the Friday speeches,and how they were thrilled to hear their Mulla talking about why America should not arrest/capture Osama, because no Muslim should be handed over to a Kaffir————-”.

    My (Muslim) friend in Kannur stopped going to his m osque (and he is quite afrraid these days) because the Mulla never criticized suicide bombings. Instead he was always blaming western govts . He said he never heard the mention of “sabr” from the mouth of the Mullah.

    No other religion has the concepts of the equivalent of Dar-ul-islam and Dar-ul-Harb, and nobody talks about the advantages/disadvantages of these than some of these mullahs..

    I do agree (and I have made it clear in earlier writeups) that no religion is above any other religion. . All religions preach the same thing. However, as I said before, Islam has a “follower” problem, to which, Bobby objected/objects to.

    “The hardening of identities is not just happening in muslim countries alone, it is happening among all religions/everywhere”..I am not aware of any adherents of other belief systems running around in all countries (or almost all) and self-exploding and killing innocents..

    @contribution of Islamic culture to india.. Of course, India has absorbed lots of excellent, significantly valuable contributions by Islam in music, architecture etc. Bismillah Khan is a national treasue. I should mention about an interesting and insightful poem written about him by a prominent Malayalam poet, O N V kurup. ONV was writing about an incident in Ustad’s life. A group of prominent Pakistanis visited the Ustad in Benares to persuade him to move to Pakistan, giving reasons such as Pakistan is the true mussleman land, etc etc. ” Avitam Allah vin swantha rajyam; avide avam riyazum namasum’” (that is Allah’s own land, you can do riyaz and namaz there); to which Ustad’s answer was “Avide Allahu vere undenno, Evideyum ore Allahu alle?” ( is there a different Allah there, isn’t Allah same everywhere?) and ” “Avide en munnil gnga undakumo?..(and will Ganges be there in front of me?)

    Coming back to the Golden Age; it indeed was the golden age. However, as Syed mentions, this age is gone; and the conditions that made it possible iare non-existent in the islamic world today; except in countries like India. The whole creativity is zapped. I mentioned in an earlier note about how few Muslim authors are in India compared to the zillions of titles published in all Indian languages and English here. I also mentioned about how few titles are publuished in Arabic in Arab countries.. The closing of mind, the harsh identity affiliation, violence, decline, separation, alienation all are interelated.

    @ Hindus worshipping Muslim saints.. Hindus, as I mentioned in an earlier note, worship their personal, custom-designed God.. Many do not worship anybody. They will worship Syed and Bobby too. It gives them lots of flexibility to organize their lives and participate in civic affairs. They worship at Matha Velankanni (a famous christian saint), Ajmer Dargha , etc.. and yes, in Kerala, they worship at Vavar ( a muslim who used to accompany Lord Ayyappa on his hunting trips) temple, on their way to Sabari Malai, the abode of Sri Ayyappa..

    However, can one imagine a Muslim worshipping Lord Shiva or Ganesha or Puttaparthi Baba or Mother Alfonsa? It will be blasphamous, and most probably that person will be killed by his fellow Muslims (or as some “secularists” will say by RSS so the blame can be put on intolerant Muslims).

    @ muslims holding properties near places of worship… 99% off hotels and shops around the famouus Guruvayoor Krishna temple in Kerala are Muslim owned. The MLA representing Guruvayoor, Mr Abdul khader, is a muslim.
    ‘Muslim shephtrd uncovering Amarnath”…. It was a Muslim (Shia) who informed the Indian authorities about incursions in Kargill (kargill is a Shia (sparsely) populated place). (may be we should dismiss our Intelligence Agents!) Anyway, i do not understand what Bobby’s points are here about property ownership.

    The premise of the series of exchanges in this blog was based on Zia’s statement “that the Hindu Muslim issue is just a minor perception issue,and if only majority community changed their perception, everything will be OK.”.. And I was giving real life examples on why and how different perceptions are formed , and in my opinion, (I myself coming from a minority) it is upto Muslims to make attempts at changing or creating the perceptions… No amount of legislation and no amount of government assistance will change or create perceptions..Govt programs, legislation etc are all needed; but they are not sufficient or enough,;neither the most important things.

    I have several times pointed to the Christian experience in Kerala, that there may be some examples other minorities tcan adapt successfully. Their women wear saree, they have sindoor on their forehead, men and women are highly educated and accomplished, they have carved out certain sectors for themselves (like nursing), they are very rich etc..They did not get any any special consideration from British or before. They name their children Vimal, vinod, Sandhya etc ,(and even Gopi) , their liturgy and church practices are “keralized’, they celeberate Onam (not only in Kerala, but wherever they are). They stage Kathakali and Thullal with christian stories. They light oil lamp for their community functions (there was a Muslim league minister in Kerala who used to refuse the lighting of the lamp for inauguration type functions ). They are all deeply Christian, with six thriving and vibrant christian sects in kerala..

    When i was growing up in kerala, and until ra decade ago or so, the only non-Malayalam, non-English name used for their various oragnizations was Jama et Islami. However in the last fifteen years there has been proliferation of organizations with Arabic names such as Itehad Mojahudin, Navattwl Mojahudin, Ma’ dinu Ssaaqafalhill Ismiyya etce And its leaders have names like Kas’sf -al-Huda. Lots of people form perceptions, mostly bad, mostly of fear based on these, combining with what they hear and see on TV when a suicide bomb explodes in Pakistan or Mumbai or Iraq. Obviously it is not right. Combine this “arabic” movement with what is happening in the literary circles. Kerala has a very expanded literary/book culture; with study circles and discussion on books all over the state. Writers are like heroes, and looked upon. But the number of muslim writers can be counted iwith ten fingers.Perceptions get formed when Muslim women who were wearing sarees or the Kerala muslim outfit suddenly moving to Burqua. While there is nothing wrong or illegal in these things, people being people start forming opinions about them being different, exclusive etc, and slowly start alienating. Thoughts cannot be legislated.

    i am told that Christians keep their christian name when they convert to Islam.. I am told the lone Muslim member of the House of representatives is one Ralph Ellison.

    Perceptions are not based on rfeality (that is why they are perceptions) or logic. Human beings are programmmed to form judgments and impressions based on what they see, hear, feel.. All can ignore these and talk about rights and why people shouldt think logically, or they should do reserach on why burqua etc. We have a saying in Malayalam: If a leaf falls on a thorn, or a thorn falls on a leaf; it is the leaf that gets hurt..

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Christians keeping their name on conversion to ISlam — I meant this in US.

    Akhil Reply:

    Hey Thomas,

    When you talk about India as a whole, So can u stop giving examples from Kerala. The reasons and rational which you cite here is totally kerala (north kerala maybe) centric and is not valid in North. To northy south states looks peaceful except few christian conversion related violence. You are completely ignorant about the equation between Hindu-Muslims in north (Christians are out of questions here as we dont allow mass scale conversion like south).

    L Mirza Reply:

    @ Akhil

    I rather have people tlike Gopi talk about ground realities as they know/experince rather than making genneralizations based on theoretical understanding or liberal views . Since each part of our country has different population mix, language, customs etc, any plan should be customized to local realities.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mirza,

    I dont care what is happening in the rest of the world. In India, the biggest danger to hindu-muslim or for that hindu- all minorities relations is the Hindutva brigade.

    Sam Reply:

    Bobby,
    If muslims dont care about the rest of the world, that is fine.
    Then they should not worry about anything outside, or take money or literature of help from outside.

    If they do take those help, at some level they will be influenced in their actions.

    So it is important to either condemn actions in KSA/Pakistan or if not, be totally isolated.

    Since total isolation is not practical in a democratic system, we do have to care about outside influences causing disturbance in the society.

    For example if drugs and porn is coming into India from outside, we have to take steps to either stop them or if not that accept them(legally or by ostrich mentality).

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sam,

    You can of course write whatever you want. Just do not address it to me, because that would be a waste of your time, since I don’t read anything you write.

    Regards.

    L Mirza Reply:

    Bobby

    Our (Muslim) leaders wanted us to remain stupid so they can use us to obtain pet projects from government. My garndfather says it was worse before under Nizams, here in Hyderabad. Nizams built twenty palaces but only one college. There was no focus on education for Muslims under Nizams. Several developmental schemes were done under TD; Dr Rajsekhar Reddy had several novel programs too.

    What has Hinduvata to do with this? They ruled center only towards the end of 90s, and that too with the support of other parties.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Mr Mirza,

    I don’t think you even understand what I am talking about. To be honest I myself don’t understand what you are talking about. :)

    How on earth do the Nizams or YSR or his schemes come into the picture.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    I was responding to your comment on relating Muslim problems to Hinduvata and their rule.

    sam Reply:

    Sam

    It is Quran and not Koran.

    sam Reply:

    Sam

    The battles Prophet fought were just and righteous.

    Prophet was the religious leader as well as the chief military person and the chief administartive person.

    Some of the Caliphs were good, while others were atrocious. It is difficult for a normal human being to be responsible for all the three. \

    There are lot of issues in today’s world where many Muslims find it difficult to reconcile the Quran (which is frozen) and the demands of modern life in a borderless economy.

    Sharia was interpreted differently by different leaders. As you know, the Talibans, Al Quaeda etc all genuinely believe they are following Sharia and implementing Allah’s will..

    That is not true Islam. However, Muslims do not come out in force against these .

    Sharia in the hands of ruthless retarded fanatics is like a jewel in the hands of monkeys. The monkeys do not understand the value of the jewel.

    Killing any soul without haaq is haram in Islam and Allah will punish. Lots of things you attribute are true, and the perpretrators will suffer Allas wrath.

    The success and well being of Muslims will only happen if they follow the principles of Islam the right way. Many mullas are misleading. Suicide bombing, not living pecefuilly with people belonging to other faiths etc are all unislamic.

    There were “saints” very much like Indian saints in Sufi and Shia sects.

    What we see now is an extreme fundamentalist group, Wahabis, cornering the religion and preaching hatred and doing harnful things.

    You are right that Muslims do not oppose this forcefully and loudly.

    Sam Reply:

    Why is my “user name” Sam hijacked ?

    Why are they posting under my name ?

    Sam Reply:

    Muslim Prophet’s battles are right ?

    That must be a joke …

    Oh sorry, you are correct as everything Mohd does is right..

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Is this your perceptipn or any theory ?

    How amny Jains, Budhists or Sikhs complain about Hinduism ?

    This shows nothing but personal of a mullah.

    are you a prophet who have given some theory ?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    You have yourself given examples both in this comment as well as before, of people you know among muslims, who are very liberal, and yet you some how manage to come to the conclusion that Islam has a “follower problem”. You have examples right here on this blog, as to how many muslims are openly critical of the situation in various islamic countries, and yet you claim that there is a “follower problem” in Islam, which according to you is non existant in other religions. I find it really strange.

    “However in the last fifteen years there has been…..”,

    Well at least you agree that this is a problem which has arisen over the last decade and half. Which is precisely my point, that the hardening of Identities is a very new phenomenon. However what you do not accept or perhaps do not see, is the reason.

    There is of course a global phenomenon of islamic fundamentalism, which also incidently dates back to around two decades, since the end of the cold war.
    However in the Indian context a more important event is the rise of Hindu fundamentalism around almost the same period.

    I have personally witnessed the effect of the hate ideology that the fascist hindutva groups had spread on school going children of my batch during the early 90’s. The kind of propaganda, hate speeches and lies about the muslims in India that the sangh parivar was throwing around is something that no honest Indian who has lived through those times can deny.

    This has lead to a considerable rift amongst hindus and muslims here, and a hardening of Identites on both sides. In fact this is the main reason behind it. The main culprits for this is the Fascist hindutva brigade.

    If some one claims, that he/she has not seen a hardening of identities in any other community apart from muslims, well I am sorry to say this , but in my opinion he/she is simply lying. And if someone claims that this majority communalism does not add to the fears of a minority community and to its “ghettoisation”, then I am again sorry to say that the person has no understanding of human behaviour.

    I see you sympathizing with commentators here, who are, as you put it, ” scared of muslims” because, again as you put it, they use arabic names for running centers, but you don’t think that hard core preachings that we saw in the 90’s and early years of this decade, can contribute to a increased Islamic identity among Indian muslims!!!!

    Let me give you another example of hardening Identities. This relates to the mid and late 80’s. Anybody who has a knowledge of that era or has lived through that period will know that precisely the same kind of hardening of identities did take place amongst the Sikhs, when they were being targeted. I hope you do remember the Khalistan movement a Sikh separatist movement which had at some point of time a massive support base in the Punjab. A lot of Sikhs indeed had extreme anger towards the Indian system.

    So please don’t ever suggest that identities have not hardened in the last two or more decades in any other community in India. As I said before, I think you are living in some wonderland. You should stay put there.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    You seem to argue for the sake of arguing and you create hypothesis without data. Sometime back, I had provided you data with respect to gujarat. Post independence, most riots happened, before 1990 (35 in number). Most riots were started by muslims, more hindu deaths than muslims (even if you count in the 2002 riots). I am not even venturing pre-independence – then again there were a lot of riots, all started by muslims (with silly reasons like gulal fell on them inadvertently or the temple bell disturbed them from offering namaz). In those cases there were hardly any muslim deaths and only hindu deaths. Therefore you whole theory that this is political and recent is completely off and has no basis. Coming back to post independence, wrt to gujarat as an example, there were no strong hindutva forces in gujarat, congress was in rule, BJP /jansangh was not even in rule and was also a very weak opposition. Second, as you can infer, babri-masjid had nothing to do with it. Also, fundamentally, RSS does a lot of social work including for muslims – adopting 100 muslim children in J&K whose parents died due to terror attacks, or providing relief to west bengal villagers affected by the recent cyclone, and many more. Can you give me the name of one so called muslim organization which does such a large scale work for anybody apart from the muslims? Also, remember RSS was a reactionary organization not a pro-active organization. It was started as a reaction to something and you should know what. BJP is based on integral humanism of deen dayal upadhyaya. You will do well to look it up in wikipedia and you will know what it means.

    Do not try and equate all religions and all followers and all countries and then suddenly say that all those are equal and hence the problems lies elsewhere – it is political, it is US, it is hindu majoritarian issues. Also you have too much of a tendency to write nonsense about upanishads and the likes and deliberately bring in caste discussions.. You should either quote verses or shut up. Do not dream up issues and then start calling everyone and everything “crackpot”, “nut cases”, etc. Remember this – Hinduism and hindus recognize that caste issues was a problem and they are trying to rectify it. I do not see this in people like you. Syed, Mirza, shoeb atleast put reasonable arguments. You should try to do it also. Else these become arguments in futility. My point is not to make any religion look bad or good. That is not my intention and not the point. The point is that Zia put the blame on perceptions formed by others and you keep deflecting it by arguing that there is no need for anything to be done by muslims on any issue. This is farcical.

    Bobby Reply:

    In fact what is farcicial is the attempt to hide the role of hindu fundamentalists in hardening identities and creating rifts between religious groups.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    “Post independence, most riots happened, before 1990 (35 in number). Most riots were started by muslims, more hindu deaths than muslims (even if you count in the 2002 riots). I am not even venturing pre-independence – then again there were a lot of riots, all started by muslims (with silly reasons like gulal fell on them inadvertently or the temple bell disturbed them from offering namaz). In those cases there were hardly any muslim deaths and only hindu deaths”

    The above is a load of bull. Plain Nonsense.

    “Also, remember RSS was a reactionary organization not a pro-active organization. It was started as a reaction to something and you should know what.”

    yes, of course that goes without saying. Everything we tolerant hindus do is always a reaction to the evil muslim’s actions.

    “My point is not to make any religion look bad or good….”,

    Look you dont have to repeat this is in every comment you make here.

    “The point is that Zia put the blame on perceptions formed by others and you keep deflecting it…”

    I am sorry this issue cannot be debated without taking into account the most important factor that leads to hardening of attitudes on both sides, which is the Hindutva brigades fascist programmes.

    Look you can continue to believe that the RSS and the hindutva organizations are social organizations, but the facts are different. Go and read what the “RSS bible” says about the views of these a s s h o l e s on muslims and their status in India, or get hold of documentaries by Anand Patwardhan.

    Indian Reply:

    What load of bull. If you know the facts produce them. These are the facts and you can verify them.

    yes, of course that goes without saying. Everything we tolerant hindus do is always a reaction to the evil muslim’s actions – Do you have any matter to substantiate otherwise. As usual the answer is no.

    Look you dont have to repeat this is in every comment you make here. – I have to so that you understand the intent. Unfortunately, your intent is the opposite.

    I am sorry this issue cannot be debated without taking into account the most important factor that leads to hardening of attitudes on both sides, which is the “Hindutva brigades fascist programmes.” You keep repeating this despite actual ground data not supporting the extent of your allegations. Prove it by data.

    Look you can continue to believe that the RSS and the hindutva organizations are social organizations, but the facts are different – Well then produce facts on their actions. I will produce a list of things they have done.

    or get hold of documentaries by Anand Patwardhan. – Funny that you will refer this as the bible. When even in the latest comment Mohan Bhagwat define his version of hindutva. It is surprising that you discard somebody as reputed as Shourie and then accept anand patwardhan. Consistency?

    Frankly you are the only one who seems here to be a fascist, because you completely disregard facts, conjure your own fiction, seem to have a single track mind and hold on to it by hook or crook.
    But have fun, as it is per your own admission, you do not take yourself very seriously…and nor do we. Good luck.

    Indian Reply:

    Also, btw there were no hindutva guys much before independence. What explains the situation before that? Therein lies the answer. Your nonsense that you will only consider present is actually trying to deflect the truth. But what can we expect from a fascist.

    Bobby Reply:

    “get hold of documentaries by Anand Patwardhan. – Funny that you will refer this as the bible…”

    Dear Indian, that’s not the Bible I was refering to. The “RSS bible”, is “We or Our Nationhood defined” by a certain Mr Golwalkar. Read it, when you are free. Actually I have commented on this as well as the hindutva’s ideals and role in post independence India, as well as its role in polarizing opinion in pre-independence India, which ultimately lead to the partition of India. So there is no point in repeating it again and again.

    “somebody as reputed as Shourie and then accept anand patwardhan. Consistency?”

    You either don’t get it, or you act as if you don’t get it..which is it?

    This is the last time I am repeating my comments on Mr Shourie. Arun Shourie comments on things he has no expertise on, which academicians, who are experts in that area, simply consider worthless, this is something I did mention some posts back.

    Anand Patwardhan is a film maker and activist. Its his job to make documentaries…and in this job he does excel, as is seen by the several international awards his work has won….and it is to these works, that I am referring you to…….I hope you see my “absolutely consistent” stand.

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    You are confusing between the state and individuals/organisations.

    See, individuals can do as they please. Even private organisations such as the Jamat E islami & hindutva organisations have been given freedom by the law of the land.

    The issue we are debating is that State should not have any official religion and should be secular. Having a state religion implies that people following the state religion are more equal than followers of any other reliigion.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Syed,

    “You are confusing between the state and individuals/organisations….private organisations such as the….hindutva organisations”

    You do realize that the BJP , a political party, is part of this organization and that therefore the Sangh parivar is NOT a “private organization” .

    “The issue we are debating is that State should not have any official religion and should be secular.”

    This is news to me. I did not realize that this was the point being debated. Neither from the post nor from the comments. Maybe I missed something. I am sure if it is this simple point that is being debated, all of the commentators on this blog would be on one side. Don’t you think so?

    syed Reply:

    @bobby
    The jamaat e islami hind is the muslim counterpart of the BJP the only difference being that it does not get votes. It also has various unofficial offshoots which are the counterparts of the sangh parivar. Now what would be the status of the jamat and its offshoots if it gets elected to office? I dont see any dichotomy.

    The debate on state and official religion started with the post of golden age of islam.

    Sam Reply:

    Bobby,

    Islam is the problem..

    as in islam there is no separation of religion and state.

    It is that simple.

    Once again,,

    Islam is the problem, as it cannot tolerate a secular state where other religions can even survive.

    I am going to write about “Golden age of Islam” which is more of a myth than true history.
    (it is nothing more than islamic propaganda, which needs to be portrayed in the right context)..

    Bobby Reply:

    Syed,

    The difference between the Jamaat and the BJP is the difference between minority communalism and Majority communalism. The latter, by any standards, is far more dangerous.

    Sam Reply:

    Jamaat and other Muslim organizations could be supported politically/monetarily by Muslims outside india.

    There are more muslims than Hindus.

    So your definition of majority/minority is a subjective.
    If all the resources for muslims are only local, only then they should be considered minority.

    The reality is muslim portraying as minority is another partial truth.

  • Bobby

    its not a phenomenon that is happening in the Muslim communities….I meant to say not happening in the Muslim community alone!

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Gopi Thomas,
    Having lived in Varanasi and having had the pleasure of listening to Ustad Bismillah Khan (sitting 10 feet away) and then being allowed to touch his feet, has been one of the most treasured memories. The legendary Baba Allauddin Khan (guru to Ravi Shankar, Ali Akbar, Nikhil Banerjee..) was an ardent devotee of Saraswati. No one found it odd those days. Nazrul Islam, the national poet of Bangladesh, was a Kali devotee..
    Some time back, one hot debating topic on Indian Muslim blogs was whether Abdul Kalam was not committing a sin by visiting temples..
    Attitudes are hardening. Luckily, Hindustani classical music scene is still largely untouched by hardcore religiousity.
    Sometime back on this blog, I had mentioned Muslim friends of mine who were literally hounded out of the Batla house area because their young daughters (10 years or thereabouts) wore skirts in public. They frankly feel a lot more at home amongst us than among their co-religionists. They are religious, except that they do not wear their religion on their sleeves.
    I never thought I would see the day when we have a Christian and a few Muslims defending the “idea of India” where India is ahead of every other identity. However, as I have said before, creating a victim mentality among the minorities is the bedrock upon which the secular liberal establishment’s legitimacy rests. That, and the tendency to blame everyone and everything but the inner demons within their community/ religion.. in India, blame the Brahmin/ Bania combo, in Gulf, blame the US..
    this debate will not end. Because you are questioning the very raison d’etre of the “secular – liberal” existence.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “(sitting 10 feet away)…”

    Thanks for telling us about the exact distance. They are very helpful for the issues being discussed, I am sure.

    “Attitudes are hardening…”

    Very original observation. Now try to think why, that is whether there is any chance that apart from the obviously true answers like muslims are all a s s h o l e s, all are “babar ke santano”, prone to murder since their childhood, Quran is full of bloodshed, (unlike our holy text books), etc. I mean maybe hindutva has a minute role perhaps…just maybe ….what say?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Bobby,
    with you around to do our thinking for us and your vocabulary from the gutter, I am sure all “right thinking” Muslims feel safe..
    your diatribe on this blog is the most eloquently argued and sustained job application to Sabrang I have seen.. great cv

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Bobby

    The humiliation, sidelining etc that is all over the world regarding Muslims, to a great extent, the result of our own self created issues. However, we are used to blaming others – dicattors, America, Hindus, Jews..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Show me a single time in history, where Muslims did an honest self introspection ?

    As far as I know, never..

    They are too much into blame others, victim or victorious mentality.
    They swing from oppressor (if in power) to victim (if not in power) quickly.

    There is nothing in the middle for Muslims.

    If they are in power like in OIC countries, they oppress everyone else.
    If not, they blame everyone (after taking subsidies for food, education, housing..) like in West and then become terrorists.

    Fundamentally Islam wants full state power and any means (including terrorism) are used to achieve that.
    It is built into Koran and Mohd’s life history.
    He waged more than 20 battles without any provocation just to expand his sources for money.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    I think we should allow bobby to have his say. While I have disagreements with him, here we are allowing all shades of opinion. There are generalisations from some people which I personally find offensive but fine, everyone should have his say.

    One type of people will definitely make the world a boring place.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Ashish

    Thanks.

    I consider

    “Asa to ma sad gamaya
    Thamso ma amrutham gamaya
    Mrithyo ma Amrutham gamaya” is human prayer for all peopel!

    That “Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavandu” was conceived 4000 years ago is mind-boggling to me. Even more amazing when you compare the utterance of the Prophet about infidels 2500 years after!

    Look forward to contributing,

    Ashish Reply:

    @Gopi,
    Isn’t the second line “Tamaso ma jyotirgamayo” loosely meaning lead us from darkness to light?

    To be honest I have acquired much “general knowledge” about Islam and Muslims and Hindutva and all that sh*t the last few months. But, while my instinct is to pursue knowledge even if just for the sake of it; I really think this is now a fairly sterile debate with well entrenched positions.

    This blog has consistently taken the stance that all the problems of Muslims in this country are traced to Hindus and their majoritarianism. I don’t agree. If anything, this blog has convinced me that this problem is really a “problem” and not, as they say in MNCs, “a challenge”.
    A problem becomes a challenge when you know that you have it; it stays a problem when you refuse to acknowledge it. It becomes a scourge, when ambulance chasers get into the act.

    Muslims in India would do just fine; but, they need to stand up and ask for and focus on things that really matter. IMHO, the leadership is pathetic (even more pathetic than the overall poliical leadership in this country). The recent Outlook article on Wakf properties is a classic example. And, why must you always obsess about whether Sania Mirza is committing “Shirk” or is Salman or Shahrukh or even Abdul Kalam a good Muslim?

    Pan-Islamism is a threat of large proportions. And, no, I do not share Syed’s optimism about “winds of change” sweeping through the gulf. The situation is enormously complicated and I am not sure if a simple “democracy will cure all” will address it. It is too large a problem to do justice to in a blog post. What happens if the oil runs out about the same time as democracy starts getting introduced? Which is probably 50 years from now.

    I must also confess being a little discomfited by Syed’s “Shias are cool” campaign. As I gently pointed out, Indonesian Muslims, largely Sunni are also very paceful. May I suggest that the peaceful Islam is one which has been influenced by other, largely peaceful cultures/ religions?
    In India, the Kerala Muslims are till recently peaceful because probably, they have been “subjects” rather than rulers as in large parts of North India. Sure, the Awadh Nawabs have been very peaceful and have actually been great patrons of art and have done a lot for their subjects, Hindus as well. The Muslims rulers of Bengal have been quite bad. About the Muslim rulers in Delhi, bar a few exceptions, the less said the better.
    It is of course true that, the vast majority of people lived side by side, albeit uneasily, in relative peace. How fragile the peace can be was brought home to us during partition. Almost everyone in my family, from that generation, have harrowing tales to relate; of making journeys on foot for hundreds of kilometers, surviving often by sheer luck. Many, like my would be father in law, crossed over with not a paisa to their name and rebuild their lives from scratch; through hard work, merit and sheer guts.
    Most of these people lost their all; properties, near and dear ones..
    Of course, you and I have to accept that all this would not have happened if the Sangh Parivar was not creating mayhem; but then again, that’s another story; told by other historians, with a rather more colourful vocabulary than mine.

    Muslims in India lack role models. I was struggling to understand why a lakh of “devotees” would turn up at “Baba” Aurangzeb’s mausoleum recently. So I checked and discovered, all the Muslim hagiography of Aurangzeb on the web centres around the fact that he was a good Muslim and his only trip in life was to spread Islam. Why would not such a person be a role model?

    About the Prophet, well what can I say? He said many things and often with rather unexplained motives.

    So, to sum up, I have reached the rather personal conclusion that:
    1. The author of the blog has nothing new to say except repeat some often wrong, many times ill-advised “line” stiched together after dubious research.
    – what about my learning objective? Ah well, I have discovered other blogs.. where, the authors do know their onions and while I may disagree, I can see their point of view.
    2. This blog is turning me into a hardliner; I daresay, I was a much more liberal and accepting person than I am today. Before I turn into something I do not like myself, I think I should get a life. Hindu-Muslim co-existence is an important issue; let others spend time on this.

    I will read this blog; but not as often. Comment very rarely, if at all. Just in hope; that things may change.
    I wish to thank all the friends I have made on this blog. I do want to acknowledge Zia’s contribution to making me interested in the Muslim society in India; so, I have spent a lot of hours researching in libraries and on the web.
    My personal mail id is ash37@indiatimes.com

    Sam Reply:

    As much as we appreciate Zia to write about a “volatile” topic, I am disappointed about his style (forget even half baked facts).

    His general style is

    1. Islam is great
    2. It is misunderstood
    3. It is misunderstood due to ignorance of Hindus
    4. If only Hindus learn more, they have nothing to fear.

    This is fine for a Ghazi or a Missionary, as their sole aim is to get more converts.

    It is really bad if Hindus fall for it, as they will be left even more passive and defenceless with all this sweet talk. I only worry about the sheep and butcher phenomenon.

    I wish Hindustantimes gives an opportunity for a person to take an opposite role and work on protecting Hindu and secular interests.

    It is time, a new columnist is given a chance for this ideas.

    Again, secularism will only be protected and thrive if Muslims let it happen (being same as every other religion, not some super rights)..

    gopi thomas Reply:

    Sam

    Your points are well-taken.

    I am putting some thoughts together on issues you had brought up before (violence, ignorance, inflexibility etc).. Will jot down once I catch up with office work.

    Sam Reply:

    Gopi and Others have pointed out valid points.

    Once again, in a secular and democratic societies all religions should abide by the same rules.
    A certain regilious group should not have super rights.

    Also there is failure in the country by the Hindus also.
    They cannot have a whitewashed history.

    History should be told, as it happened..
    the good, bad and ugly parts.

    then come to terms with it, and make sure the old “atrocities” do not happen.

    It should be “forgive and move on”

    not “forget and dont tell and keep them ignorant”.

    Sam Reply:

    Some interesting things to read…found on the web.

    =================================
    Universal Jihad: Radical Islam’s Worldwide War on Liberal Democracies
    By Vijay Kumar

    On September 11, 2001, a war was brought to our shores by a band of men, bound by a militant ideology, in an act of mass murder. The response by the United States was a so-called “War on Terror,” a reflex that has proved to be as ineffective as it has been costly.

    We have spent more than a trillion dollars on invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 5,000 American soldiers have died in the last eight years, and tens of thousands of American soldiers have been wounded.

    What has this flood of blood and money bought us?

    There has been no sustainable victory for the United States. There is no strategic victory; there is no political victory; there is no moral victory. And there is no peace. Islamic terrorism continues around the globe unabated.

    The Obama administration lately wants to avoid any taint by the phrase “War on Terror,” papering it over with even more ambiguity, calling it now an “Overseas Contingency Operation.” It’s still the same losing war, just as costly, just as ineffective.

    The Bush and Obama administrations’ “War on Terror”-by any name-has failed for a simple reason. It is because there is no such a thing as war on terror. Terrorism is a technique, a method, a weapon, a means to an end. Terrorism is not an enemy that can be named or identified, much less fought effectively. A “War on Terror” is a war on shadows, a war on nothing and on no one. It is a fool’s errand.

    Yet there is a war raging. It is a war that already had raged for 1,400 years before it was brought to our shores, a war that has laid waste to entire nations, cultures, and civilizations. The war is Universal Jihad: the eternal worldwide war on all infidel nations.

    Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt were Christian nations before Christianity was supplanted by Political Islam. Afghanistan was Buddhist, Iran was Zoroastrian, and Pakistan was Hindu before Radical Islam consumed their civilizations and cultures.

    The long-running Israeli and Palestinian conflict is not some unique standalone dispute over real estate or factionalism or any of the other wrong reasons given for it. It is simply another front in Universal Jihad’s imperialistic war for the minds and souls of man. There has never been a lasting peace there because Political Islam has no interest in making peace with infidels-and every man, woman, or child anywhere in the world who is not Muslim is branded as infidel.

    The crisis in the Middle East never ends because Political Islam never yields to another ideology. It does not believe in or permit of peaceful co-existence. The problem is not Jews or Israel. The only thing keeping the conflict in endless, irresolvable foment is a universal supremacist ideology that demands the conquest of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Chinese, the West and sub-Saharan Africa.

    The purpose of Universal Jihad, its mandate, its raison d’etre is conquest of the infidels and their nations-all of them-whether by conversion, domination, or death. In Political Islam, there is no fourth choice. It does not countenance any form of permanent peace with infidels.

    Where Muslims are weak demographically and politically, they will propose truce. But we must understand the difference between truce and peace. Truce is a temporary ploy to buy time until one is stronger. Peace is lasting mutual respect. Muslims care not for peace, ever, with infidels, who are seen as inferiors. Where Muslims are strong they wage Universal Jihad, a worldwide war against the infidel. Jihad is the scriptural imperative of Political Islam, and the infidel is fair game.

    For Universal Jihadists, therefore, any tactic, any means, any weapon is fully justified, so terrorism and mass murder are considered to be perfectly valid methods in attaining their theological and political goals.

    The Lockerbie mass murderer was given a hero’s welcome recently in Libya because in Islam’s Universal Jihad he is a war hero.

    The September 11, 2001 mass murder in the United States was a holy act, not only sanctioned but also celebrated.

    The doctrine of Universal Jihad has a clear global goal: the supremacy of Islam everywhere in the world. It demands theological, political, and cultural supremacy-Islamic Imperialism-over the entire world. There is no room for political pluralism.

    In Political Islam, there is no valid law other than the Islamic law, Sharia. The constitutions of liberal democracies are nothing more than the folly of fallible men and not worth the paper and ink wasted on them. Universal Jihad is a war on the cornerstones of democratic principles: individual rights and freedoms. It is a declared war on the very existence of democracy and the freedom of mind in the world.

    Islamic Imperialism is the greatest imperialist force the world has ever seen. Until recently, the Western Hemisphere has been largely isolated and protected from Universal Jihad by geographical and technological barriers. Today, all of that has changed.

    The United States merely is among the latest nations to be targeted for attack and invasion by Universal Jihad. It is infantile to believe that the Universal Jihadists have brought their 1,400 hundred years war to the West because of America’s support of Israel. Universal Jihad predates the birth of the United States and of Israel by a thousand years, and already has conquered much the Middle East and parts of Europe.

    America is falling prey to the same overt and covert strategies and tactics. Terrorism has been only one of those tactics.

    Demographic conquest is the most permanent form of conquest. The infiltration of both legal and illegal Universal Jihadists to Western Europe and North America is fundamentally altering the very fabric of Western civilization. Political Islam is a State within a State no matter what nation it enters.

    Political Islam views the world as being divided into two eternally opposing camps: Darul al-Harb (Land of Hostility, governed by the infidels) and Darul al-Islam (Land of Peace, ruled by Muslims). Any land that is not Islamic and not ruled by Muslims is considered Land of Hostility. Universal Jihadists have a theological obligation to conquer non-Muslim nations by any means and supplant the governments of men with Islamic theocracy. Hence, there is no such a thing as assimilation of Islam into a host society.

    What the Western mind has failed to grasp is that in Islam, separation of church and state is categorically, scripturally, emphatically, and dogmatically impossible.

    That is why the inherent imperialism of Universal Jihad is a greater threat to liberal democracies than Nazism and Communism combined. Unlike Islamists, Nazis and Communists lacked a transcendental metaphysics and global demographic strength. Nazism was defeated within ten years of its rise to power in Germany, and Communism has collapsed because of its own internal contradictions; post-Communist Russia and post-Nazi Germany became liberal democracies.

    Not so the nations and civilizations conquered by Universal Jihadists.

    A thousand years ago, the Indian Hindus were in the same predicament as is the Western world today. Their epistemologies were too rational, their metaphysical views too abstract and embracive. Their concept of non-violence even against those who wanted to annihilate them and their way of life was their greatest flaw. It was a fatal flaw. The Western world’s present approach is reminiscent of the ancient Hindus.

    The current crisis between the West and the doctrine of Universal Jihad is epistemological; it is a war of rationalism and intellectual freedom against virulent theological dogma. But it is a war. It was declared 1,400 years ago. Now it has been brought to America’s shores.

    Universal Jihadists have been winning through eternal patience and persistence engendered and empowered by their transcendental metaphysics, and their central belief that the entire world was meant to be governed by Islamic theocracy. What they lack in technology, they make up in demographic strength, geographic diversity, ideological clarity, and a fanaticism that is only “business as usual.”

    Compounding the threat is widespread ignorance among the rank and file. Of the purported 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, 90% do not speak Arabic, yet Islam’s most lionized theologians claim that the Quran cannot be translated into any other language. By their measure, 90% of Muslims cling to the ragged edges of a dogma that they cannot hope to fully understand.

    At stake are our intellectual and spiritual freedoms, and the most cherished principles of democracy. To preserve them, we must win this war not of our making. The alternative is unconditional surrender. Universal Jihadists are the product of militant ideologies and not vice-versa. Unless and until we confront that ideology for what it is, logically and persistently, all of our efforts are, and will continue to be, futile.

    American politicians of both parties have failed or refused to define the true nature of the enemy and its intentions. The enemy is not Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Islamic Brotherhood, or any of the hundreds of Islamic fundamentalist groups from Algeria to the Middle East to South Asia to Indonesia. Each of those is merely a tentacle of the same voracious beast called Universal Jihad. The very fact of the multitude of factions is nothing more than another strategy of Universal Jihadists to disperse and confuse and weaken the infidel by making him fight too many enemies on too many fronts. And it is working.

    The only real enemy is Universal Jihad in all its manifestations. It is an existential crisis that threatens equally every non-Muslim nation, no matter what their culture, heritage, philosophy, or form of government.

    The current military campaign by the United States and an ever-shrinking handful of its allies in the failed “War on Terror” (by any name) are beyond ineffective; it is suicidal. For eight long years it has squandered billions of dollars and thousands of innocent lives attacking the wrong enemies, while leaving the real seats of power of Universal Jihad unscathed, and even embracing them as “allies” and trading partners.

    The war in Afghanistan is escalating, with the last two months alone having been the two deadliest months in the eight long years of U.S. involvement there. Yet Afghanistan is only a client state, a proxy, for Pakistan, one of the nations in the triumvirate that is the Empire of Universal Jihad. It is Pakistan’s clandestine agency, Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), that rules Pakistan. Using Saudi money, the ISI created Taliban and Al-Qaeda. It is Pakistan’s ISI that fosters Afghanistan’s chief exports of heroin and terrorism, and that supplies refuge for Universal Jihadists. Yet we embrace Pakistan as an “ally.”

    The Seats of the Empire of Universal Jihad are Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan. These are Command Central. These are the declared enemies of democracy and of fundamental human rights and freedoms across the globe. Unless and until they are recognized, named, and treated as such, Universal Jihad will continue to ravage every non-Islamic nation and culture everywhere around the world into perpetuity.

    The war being waged against humanity and democracy by Universal Jihadists can be won decisively. We can find a lasting and comprehensive solution to the greatest imperialistic threat Western civilization has ever seen. We have billions of willing allies in every place on the globe. But our success, our victory is predicated upon knowing and naming the real enemy, knowing the scope and reality of the threat, and taking decisive and directed action.

    I maintain:

    War against Universal Jihadists can be won globally in less than five years.
    It can be won for less than one billion dollars.
    It can be won without any more loss of American or Western Life.

    In order to win this war that has been declared against us through no fault of our own, the first requisite is to acknowledge that it is an ideological war. It is the totalitarian Islamic theocracy against fundamental human rights and freedoms and against every democracy in the world.

    It’s also necessary to recognize that causes of poverty, illiteracy, and misery prevalent in Islamic nations are over-population, suppression of intellectual freedom, hostility to critical thinking, and a dictatorial theocracy as the form of government. Colonialism or Zionist or Anglo-American conspiracies are not the cause.

    The conflict between Universal Jihadists and the West is philosophical. Strength is necessary to bring and maintain order, but force alone can never prevail. Reason, empiricism, and the scientific method are our greatest weapons against the religious fanaticism of Political Islam’s militant theocracy.

    Non-Islamic nations must correctly classify the doctrine of Universal Jihad as a subversive paramilitary political movement whose core ideology, of record, demands the overthrow of the existing forms of governments. Civilized nations recognize that such subversion, in times of war, constitutes treason.

    And Universal Jihad is a declared war. It is a war of Islamic theological exclusivism against pluralistic democratic traditions. They are mutually exclusive. Islam’s Sharia is the antithesis of individual intellectual and spiritual freedom. It stands in direct opposition to the very existence of any constitutional democracy, and to the very right to existence of any other religion or belief.

    Therefore, in order to prevail in this war against the rest of mankind, we must do the following.

    Build a global united alliance of nations against Universal Jihad. Jew and Gentile, Anglo-Saxon and Slav, Hindu and Buddhist, Norwegian and Nigerian-all have been victimized by Jihad. Never has any barbaric imperialism so universally threatened mankind without regard to national or ethnic or philosophical or geopolitical boundaries. Whatever our differences, in this war we are allies unified by a common ruthless enemy that will not rest until we and our cultures and nations have been conquered through conversion, domination, or death. United, we cannot be overcome.

    Systematically remove all advocates of Political Islam’s Universal Jihad from every nation of the Western world-which, by their own definition, is Darul al-Harb (Land of Hostility, governed by the infidels). The claims and requirements of Literal Islam’s mandated theocracy call for overthrow of the American and Western forms of government in a declared war, and the supporters of Universal Jihad have committed and condoned acts of war on our soil against our people and our nations. That is treason.

    As a united alliance of nations against Universal Jihad, cut off all trade and diplomatic ties to the Empire of Universal Jihad: Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. Enforce these sanctions until their governments publicly, formally renounce and disavow Universal Jihad by official proclamation.

    As a united alliance of nations against Universal Jihad, use the combined resources of all affected nations to demilitarize, secularize, and democratize the Empire of Universal Jihad.

    As a united alliance of nations against Universal Jihad, demand and exact compensation from the Empire of Universal Jihad for having supported global terrorism for at least the past half-century.
    If any of these steps to victory seem draconian or undemocratic, pause to reflect that they are far more humane and civilized then the strategies and tactics of Political Islam and its 1,400 years war that has decimated entire civilizations and murdered countless millions. These steps are far more humane and civilized than dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations. These are not some “Modest Proposals” in the tradition of Swift. These are sober, attainable and necessary steps that must be taken if the rationality and freedoms gained by mankind over thousands of years of social evolution stand any chance of surviving the Universal Jihadist’s onslaught of barbarism and mass murder to the end of totalitarian rule of the world.

    To survive at all and preserve our cherished rights and freedoms, our cultures, our religions, our civilizations, we must declare an ideological war against Universal Jihadists. We must do so now. They long ago declared war on us.

    ==========================================

    Indian Reply:

    I agree with you @Ashish. I do not think it is any point arguing with a fanatic fundamentalist.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Bobby

    I do stand by my conclusion that Islam has a “follower” problem which other religious groups do not have. (not that they may not have had it in the history; I am talking about present and now).

    Neither I see “hardening” in other religions at this time (other than Islam) .. (Yes, there was a major Sikh/congress workers/Indira Gandhi loyalists issue at one time, will touch on that later) . In any case, attitudes are formed by perceptions. For many Muslims worldwide, it is the proverbial “islam in danger”. We see it playing with extreme violence all across the world. In an Indian context, the perceptions of “Islam in danger” had always persisted ever since the British take over. This perception resulted in the first recorded Hijra in modern history, when many Muslims led an exodus to Afghanistan, a Dar-al-Islam country during the Khilafet movement. This Dar-il-ISlam / Dar-al-Harb conflict is alive and well, and at every little thing, gets stroked by vested parties. For non-Muslims, recent perceptions are formed by the gory terorist and suicide attack scenes they see on TV ,coupled with the news items such as local help to pakistan based terrorist groups, arrest of Muslim youths regarding terrorist acts and for obtaining terrorist training in Pakistan.

    Assuming Hindus have hardened as you say, is it driven by an edict from any famous temple (such as Tirupati, Rameshwaram, Benares etc), or by Swamijis like Sankaracharyas? Or by an alternate interpretation of any sacred books like Bhagavad Gita? Is it driven by worshippers of one God (say Ganesh) vs another(say Venketewara) ?

    You mentioned Sangh Parivar has a fair share of contribution to this majority community hardening.. Sangh parivar is almost non-existent in southern states (may be except in Karnataka). BJP (I aassume BJP is included in Sangh Parivar) got 6% votes in the last elections in kerala, significantly less than what Muslim league got. If Sangh parivar is so strong, and majority community is influenced by them big time, how come they do not win elections and control all the states and center?

    I do not sense a siege or hardening atttitide, only a thriving attitude, among Christians (from a South India perspective; it is too small elsewhere) In fact, the only time when Christians were persecuted in India by a ruler was during the rein of Tipu Sulta, Muslim emperor of Mysore. Many Christians especially the Catholics in Managlore were persecuted and converted, and many churches destroyed during his infamous “padayottam” over Malaabr.

    Yes, Mrs Indira Gandhi’s assassination by two of her body guards, Benat and Satwant Singhs, did result in a carnage on Sikhs in Delhi. She was walking to an interview with Peter Ustinov , the famous actor, who was waiting for her in an open air set up in her lawn. The two men who were supposed to protect her shot 33 rounds at her; with Satwant shooting 30 times, while she was walking .

    She ordered the army to attack the insurgents who were based in the golden temple. This desecration of the temple by the army created a major major issue with the religious sikhs. She showed courage (or stupidity) in going after the insurgents located in the golden temple; although it was her policies that cultivated these insurgents. In a way, it was ironic that the post independence Punjab state was divided into Punjab (mainly Sikhs) and Haryana (mainly Hindus) during her first prime ministership ! The insurgents used the temple as their base because they perceived police and military will never enter the temple. This was followed by the army attack, followed by the Sikh body guards killing Mrs Gandhi in 1984, followed by four days of riots in Delhi by congress men killing thousands of Sikhs. Many leaders of Congress let their goondas loose to create a mass hysteria. Indira was at her peak in 1980s, with slogans like “India is Indira, Indira is India” . One of the main blemishes on Rajiv Gandhi is the remark he made during the riots – ” when a big tree falls there will be tremors’. Sikhs felt threatened and unsafe, many started shaving their beard off and moved to other areas. Sikhs prepared their hit list of leaders responsible for the riots and attack, and some of the leaders who planned the riots and officers who led the attack on the temple were murdered later. Hindsight is 20/20; had Mrs Gandhi followed a different policy, insurgents would not have got strong. On one side, I do appreciate her leadership and courage in deciding to attack, knowing very well that she will be marked to be assassinated..

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    “You mentioned Sangh Parivar has a fair share of contribution to this majority community hardening.. Sangh parivar is almost non-existent in southern states…”

    India is slightly larger than South India in my opinion. Nevertheless their influence is growing in the south as well.

    [Reply]

  • http://, Sam

    Killing in the name of Islam.
    (in their own words, so dont call me a bigot )

    Kasab’s interview (interrogation)

    http://europenews.dk/en/node/24746

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Agree with lot of things. However, Pakistan was not the creation of the ‘war waging radical Islam”. although, theer was an islamic element. Also, the Christian nations were not christian to start with, theer were Romaniic and other pagan cultures. however, it was a natural ‘evolution”, not through wars.
    Keep up the work.. I am learning a lot!

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish
    It’s a fact that at the end of the day muslims have to acknowledge that there is a serious issue within themselves & try to solve it ourselves. But that’s easier said than done.
    90% of Indian muslims eke out a hand to mouth living as daily wagers, drivers, mechanics, carpenters plumbers…, they are totally uneducated, their only “education” if you can call it that is through the friendly neighbourhood imam on their Friday prayers who believe that world starts and ends with Islam. How can they solve their problems themselves? People like us are not at all representative of Indian muslims.
    So what can be done? This is a cliché, but for starters we need to ensure that all children irrespective of religion get to complete at least class 10. There should be free and secular education for all with board and food thrown it (When Pakistan can allot 7% of their GNP on education in the recent budget we sure can). And no, I am not in favour of retelling history because quite frankly I am not sure if it would yield any benefits and whether our teachers can handle the delivery part with sensitivity. However I do feel that an additional subject dealing with religions should be started right from class 1 till 10. This would educate children about the positive aspects of various religions so that hopefully they can make a beginning free from the prejudices we adults have (and muslim children don’t learn about other religions from their mullas). Additionally there would not be any political opposition to this move. (The shia community has some schools/colleges have been set up to impart heavily subsidised and secular education esp. to girls- I have been associated with them on and off http://www.tauheed.org/unitycollege.asp
    I would like to mention again that we need to have a very strong incentive based family planning model. Such a model, as it is not coercive, would be politically implementable & automatically target muslims more. This would take care of the nightmares some of my friends here have, of an uncontrolled muslim demographic explosion.
    REg shias in india, facts speak – the culture they put in place in Lucknow ensured that there was not even one riot in Lucknow during partition (when the whole of north india was burning), no anti sikh riot in 1984, no riot during the babri masjid issue…etc. Sure there would be many cases of peaceful muslim communities/counyries the world over, but I was speaking from the Indian context. Vinod Mehta (Editor, Outlook) is the way he is because he spent his formative years in lucknow.
    Regarding winds of change in the islamic world – maybe I am optimistic because I have no other option. Your timeline of 50 years may be too high. Alternative energy sources (Lithium batteries) are fast being improved & gaining popularity in cars & my timeline is 10-20 years max. (Actually this is a paradox but in some ways no oil revenues in a country is better for women as they then have to come out of their homes for jobs leading to increased women’s rights).
    I am also optimistic mainly from the developments I see in Iran. Ayotalla Montazeri is one of the leading ayotallas in iran who along with many others is calling for democracy, secular rule, women’s rights etc. (How is that possible in Islam?) To change the rule of the established mullas in Iran you need to actually change the system which is difficult but the process has started. Why is Iran more important than countries such as indonesia? Because Iran due to its proximity to the gulf and the influence it exerts there can start a domino effect (Iraq would follow for sure).
    Reg. Zia, I feel sorry for him – he is caught between a rock & a hard place. You guys have pulled him so much, he has stopped blogging!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,
    Your idea about incentives for family planning is a valid and good one.

    Zia is only doing his true job as a Ghazi.
    I do not blame him.
    (I praise him for writing these topics, but totally disagree with his basic premises/assumptions and the general style of islam being misunderstood, if only Hindus do this, do that…)

    But Hindus need someone like Zia, to do the same thing for them.

    Govt teaching religion, I dont want it.
    I do not want Hindu’s money spent by the govt to learn about islam.

    Hindus are already at a financial disadvantage with all the money coming from KSA, other missionary activities.

    Hindus are the most poorest in the whole world as a religious group.
    They are worst persecuted and affected minority in the whole world.
    Their resources are better spent in probably building a “chinese wall” of defense against Islamic Terrorists…

    They dont need more understanding of Islam (with their own money).

    [Reply]

    Arfat Reply:

    it looks you r afraid of ISLAM.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Yes the whole world is afraid of terrorism originating from Islam.

    Islam is afraid, of not having state support.

    Hindus do not want state support for any religion, inspite of being the poorest religious group in the whole world.

  • http://, Sam

    What do you think of this idea ?

    Muslim journalists should not be allowed to cover any terrorist acts against india which originated in Pakistan.

    Muslims journalists can be allowed only when they have their secular credentials proven beyond any doubt. They should have done acts which clearly help uphold religious diversity.

    The reason, is their narrative may be biased or not full and complete truth for various reasons.

    Does this have any basis (you can call me a bigot for this, and I dont care)…

    The gunmen clearly say that they are killing for allah and going to Islam’s heaven..

    They state it very clearly, but some how muslim journalists can filter this out and only present a whitewashed story.

    Until then

    [Reply]

  • http://, Sam

    Imams speeches should be monitored in all mosques.
    In many islamic countries, their speeches have to approved by govt.

    In india, they should atleast be monitored.
    (since there is freedom of religion, i do not want them to get approved by govt)

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    @ sAm @ Bobby @ Ashish @Atul etc

    Many have pointed about the violence, hardening of attititudes, role of government , muslim behavior as a response to sangh pariwar etc .

    Many (or most of the) Indian Muslims are as much or more a part of the Islamic world ; and as such the Indian Muslims are affected by the undercurrents of the Islamic world. An understanding of this may provide bridging ideas.

    Muslims all over the world are affected by widespread illiteracy, underdevelopment, violence. . Many of them live in theocratic countries run by autocrats. The common knot tying the political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral failures of the islamic countries (all of them are failures!) is Islam.

    Islam looks at the world as being divided between islam and the world of infidels, non-believers. The central prayer of Islam, the KAlina, prayed daily by the religious states “there is no God but Allah, and Mohamed is his prophet. The Prophet, a military leader in addition to being a religious leader also stated “the sword is the key to heaven and hell”. Jesus said one who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Religious hindus end their prayer with “Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavandu, Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.”

    The manichaen division of the planet into Dar-Al-Islam and Dar-l-Harb creates constant conflicts and irreconcilable issues to many religious Muslims.Islam is the central organizing principle in the individual’s life. Islam is locked in the dicttates of Quran and Hadith, a collection of rules and teachings by the Prophet whose rules dictate the most minute aspects of a Muslim’s life. (i would say this is like injecting the death DNaat birth itself!) (hence the faatwa about Zania Mirza’s outfit etc)

    Oppessive rulers and conservative religious clerics have colluded to produce ecrtain interpretationof Islam that represent serious impediments to human development, particularly when it comes to freedom of thought, accountability of ruling authorities, and womens particippation in public life. Islam, rather than knowledge, is currently fervently held to be the “organizing principle” in all the aspects of human activity. Herein lies the problem. Inherent in the quest of knowledge, is the expression of doubt. But in Islam, doubt is forbidden. so, the education system, like other aspects of socialization falls short of the epistemological and social environment necessary for knowledgge production per UNDP Arab/Muslim Human Resources development Report, 2003,). Religious and Quranic studies form a significant and compulsory part of primary and secondary education in all these countries. This is the major cause of children’s “passive attitudes and ‘hesitant decision making skills”, impairing children’s thinking skills by “suppressing questioning, exploration and initiative.” The UNDP report identified three major “deficits” in Islamic countries – deficits in freedom, women’s empowerment, and knowledge.

    Democracy is all but frozen out in Islamic countries because of Quaranic principles and belief in Sharia (since laws of God does not change there is no ned for a legislature – and if an interpretation is needed, who else but the clerics as the best qualified?)In practice, the politics of most of the Islamic countries is a contest between forces seeking to impose an Islamic state that is by nature autocratic and secular forces using autocratic means to prevent such an autocracy from being established. The only solution to this dilemma is teh approach adopted by Turkey, whereby Islam is constituionally excluded from politics and civil affairs. However, many muslims see this as a betrayal of Islam.

    the antipathy to knowledge started around 12th century, when the religion which once seemed to have banished priestly superstition and enslavement of men’s minds to other men became priest-(Mulla)ridden. Pursuit of knowledge was all but abandoned starting 12 th century. For, is it not the knowledge of mere infidels?

    Printing press was introduced in the ottoman empire in 1485, but Sultan Bayzaid and his Mullas did not want Muslims to use the press (and he let Christians and Jews to use ). Muslims started using the press in 1727, about 300 years after the press was invented. (India started using press in 1556)
    Coming to the modern times, the 57 OIC ISlamic countries (including PAkistan) has around 500 universities/major colleges compared with 5000 in USA and 8000 in India. In 2004, Jiao Tong university in Shanghai compiled an academic ranking of world universities and none from teh Islamic states was in the top 500.

    Lack of education creates ignorance and tendency to believe in conspiracy theories (remeber the UP incident few years ago when muslims refused to take polio vaccination because of the conspiracy theory about making the boys impotent).. The pervasive insecurity, fear of Muslims in Islamic countries make them believe in any conspiracy theory (surveys prove this). the tendency of Muslim masses to accept rumorurs as fact and the readiness to believe anything that suggests a non_muslim conspiracy to weaken or undermine the Muslims is the result of the overall feeling of helplessness and decline that permeates the Muslim world. (sangh parivar, partiality of india govt etc fits in this view)

    Most Muslim leaders and scholars and leftists try to explain the Muslim decline through the prism of the injustices of colonization and thesubsequent ebb/flow of the global distribution of power. They gloss over the self inflicted wounds by Islam.

    Natural pride in the Muslim world is derived not from economic prosperity, technological innovation, or intellectual output ; but from the rhetoric of “destroying the enemy” (hence ‘death to america”, “death to Israel”, may be death to parivar!)

    The number one reason for all the ills afflicting teh Muslim world is the failure to patronize learning and its environment whenever and wherever it existed.

    There are two forces , one major, and one a small ripple happening in the modern world to “address” these problems. On one side, there is a violent and vocal group who is blaming all its issues on others and insisting that the solution to Islam’s problems is more Islam; back to the Prophets world. They are violent, killing everybody left and right; muslims and non-muslims. There is a small group who is trying to sepaarte Islam out of Muslims, so it is a private religion, one that does not dictate every minute details of living and learning. We have witnessed the terrible results of the first group. Whether they will move fast and finish of the second group is the puzzle.

    So, in an Indian context, when we see the complaints about government not doing something, or we would have been so better of if only not for Sangh Parivar, or fight for hijab but not for a school– all these are coming from the same afflictions affecting the larger Umma. Hopefully, the enxt blog may open up a discussion of the Umma’s decline in the context of failure to produce and consume knowledge.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    This post is nonsense from the first word to the last.

    “Many (or most of the) Indian Muslims are as much or more a part of the Islamic world ; and as such the Indian Muslims are affected by the undercurrents of the Islamic world.”

    What the hell does that mean? Are Indian Muslims part of India or not? Do you think they get more affected by happenings in their neighbourhood and in other parts of India, which would effect them more directly or not? A sadhvi in India inciting people about “babur ke santano”, the breaking of the Babri Masjid, Mass murder of muslims under state patronage in Gujarat, constant accusations of disloyality, or some thing happening in a land far away?

    “The common knot tying the political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral failures of the islamic countries (all of them are failures!) is Islam.”

    I see. So why do you think they were doing quite well a few centuries back? Can one say it was due to the greatness of Islam? The western nations were in pretty bad shape in the middle ages. why was that. Failure of Chritianity?
    Nepal is many ways doing pretty badly. How would one understand that? Failure of Hinduism? India is doing terribly in most indicators of Human development, be it poverty/ human rights/ social conditions of minorities and untouchables/dalits, as is universally acknowledged. Is that due to the failure of Hinduism? Since western nations are doing far better than us in all these aspects, would you agree with the assessment that Christianity is far better than Hinduism.

    “They gloss over the self inflicted wounds by Islam. ”

    Just like people like you gloss over the role of Hindutva organizations on Indian Society.

    “from the rhetoric of “destroying the enemy” (hence ‘death to america”, “death to Israel”, may be death to parivar!)”

    Just to take an example, If you ever remember the images shown on TV after the Nuclear tests, or the Kargil period, or for that matter after every bomb blast…you will see any number of people demanding bombing Pakistan…people garlanding dummy “nuclear missiles” with writings like to “Pakistan with love”. Do you not see any similarities? This is how mobs react everywhere.

    “remeber the UP incident few years ago when muslims refused to take polio vaccination because of the conspiracy theory about making the boys impotent”

    I remember a lot more than that. I remember reading an news article about a mob killing Dalits/untouchables because they had skinned a “holy cow”. I see daily on various channels stupid ads of how various “lockets” can save people from “buri nazar”. I see that fraud Bejaan Daruwala and idiots like him lying day in and day out about astrological mumbo jumbo. I remember the tragi-comic “Ganesha drinking milk ” episode. I remember a news article about a family where an astrologer uncle raped a girl because her parents believed that this would remove some “shani dosh” or some such c r a p. The list is endless… This reminds of the bollywod song…”It happens only in India.”

    “Coming to the modern times, the 57 OIC ISlamic countries (including PAkistan) has around 500 universities/major colleges compared with 5000 in USA and 8000 in India. In 2004, Jiao Tong university in Shanghai compiled an academic ranking of world universities and none from teh Islamic states was in the top 500.”

    Please also tell us how many from Universities from India were in that list as compared to China, Japan, US or most western nations. DO you know what is the ratio of research paper output when compared with say china? Would you agree that christianity, shin-tau and Han culture are far more superior to Hinduism?

    “(hence the faatwa about Zania Mirza’s outfit etc)…”
    Do you know what the crazy a s s h o l e Baba Ramdev had to say about Celina Jaitley…who “exposes” in bollywood movies…In his enlightened, most tolerant Hindu worldview (as opposed to Islamic backwardness) they were all whores!!!!

    Something to ponder about: The basic lesson of morality is : “apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others”…something Noam Chomsky always stresses.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “This post is nonsense from the first word to the last. ”

    I of course meant Gopi’s post not mine :)

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Bobby,
    I think the influence of Hinduvta (or whatever it means) brigade on our society is frequently over-hyped. How many laws, for example, are changed on account of influence or bullying of this brigade. Before you come to any conclusions, you have to take into account that we are a billion plus people. On an average, the fundamentalist strain of Hinduism has negligible influence. As for your or Gopi’s argument about the role of religion in advancement of culture, I would think that religion for most part has always played a regressive role in intellectual growth. On the other hand, the negative growth has shown a strong correlation with a growth in religiosity, whether it be Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity. The golden period of Islamic culture was inspite of Islam and not because of it. The stars of those times would be considered heretics now, and to an extent were an anathema to the clergy even then, except that the clergy did not wield the influence that they have now in the Islamic societies today. Turkey and Indonesia are exceptions to that, but we know how things are changing there too. Europe came out of dark ages because it shed its fundamentalist Catholic moorings. We, in India, are still grappling with the evils of caste system. The problem in Islam, and this is nothing new, is that it’s too ambitious. I may be wrong in saying this, but the moment a religion steps out of an individual domain to fashion a society as a whole, it is a sure recipe for disaster. Otherwise, the problems associated with Islam are not unique. Any faith or belief that grows out of written word is prone to misintrepretations et al. Hinduism, by and large, escaped from it because there was no one particular moment in space or time that one could attribute to its formal inception. That left the field open to all kinds of goof-balls, but, crucially, it provided a space for the so-called ‘deviants’ too. Any society, in order to progress, has to make space for those deviants, because, in my view, any radical or quantum jump in a civilization’s progress is generally provided by the deviants and not the ones who follow the beaten track. Abbassid Caliphate, by and large, were very tolerant, and this showed in the remarkable amount of scientific progress that happened during that time. Amazingly, there were a fair amount of atheists, who openly ridiculed religions and, in fact, the Prophet himself. Is that possible now? Mughal kings, with the sole exception of Aurangzeb, were splendidly cosmopolitan. When Aurangzeb brought his intense religiosity in the governing, it marked the start of rapid decline of the Mughals.
    As far as other religions are concerned, I am not sure if religion, as we understand it, can be used to describe eastern ‘religions’ in general. The word ‘religion’ is a Judeo-Christian construct, and I am not sure it can be applied in toto to the near eastern faith or religion or whatever you want to call it.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Amit,

    “As for your or Gopi’s argument about the role of religion in advancement of culture”

    I think you are mistaking me for some other people commenting here. I have never said anything about the role of religion in the advancement of culture.

    “How many laws, for example, are changed on account of influence or bullying of this brigade.”

    I am not talking of changes in Indian constitution or laws, but about impact on society. I have no doubt if they ever come to power on their own, the laws and constitution will change too.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Religious Muslims are governed by concepts such as Dar-Al-Islam and their daily lives dictated by the edicts of Quran and Hadith. Umma, the larger Islamic community, is an important , undisputable concept for them. Islam worldwide is going through major convulsions. I was not advocating that we overlook specific law and order or government negligence/malpractice here; but that what is happening in the larger Islamic world has a bearing on issues and solutions affecting Indan mUslims too. If we were discussing, say the Chritian sect or Budhist sect, this issue does not arise because they do not have these inalieble and irreconcilable concepts liek “Land of Islam vs land of infidels” “Umma or the influence of the larger worldwide Christian community etc. .

    Also, neither an issue of superiority or inferiority. Islam, in its current form with a total hold on an individual’s life to the minute detail (sometimes as much and more than any government), is standing in the way of Muslims’ progress; contributing to the current miserable conditionsof Muslims worldwide (if not fro Indian Muslims!) While each of the 57 OIC countries may have their own specific local country issues, the underlying major blockage in all those countries is the frozen belief systems based on a philosophy that has not changed since 12th century.

    You are right to question how can there be a golden age if they are like this, if they are for exclusionary beliefs, against changing, accepting and adapting,.You may know what happened; but for others sake I am giving a brief synopsis here. I hope you will excuse me if you are already aware of this.Amit also refers to some of these.:
    Islam, upto the 12th century, was significantly different from Islam today. Learning was encouraged, people of different faiths were involved in deliberation. Nobody (meaning Mulla) was in between man and his Allah.Many great phoilosophers such as Al-Farbi and Avicenna enriched the life and thought process( in today’s Islam they would be killed). free thought and learning were encouraged, and Caliphs encouraged Muslism to “seek knowledge even unto china” eventhough it were the knowledge of a heathen race. The mixing of people and achievements were something like 20th century America where many briiliant people from many parts of the world worked on scientific and engineering and philoshical accomplishments. They led in science,astronomy, algebra, and medicine. They absorbed from Greek, Persian, Indian philosphies with the resulting accomplishments significantly more than teh sum of the individual philosphies. In fact, the medieval Cchristian world found out most of its Greek heritage of Aristotle, Plato from Arabic translations of Greek works done during the golden age of Islam!.

    Itjihad, the interpretation process to incorporate new information and knowledge to Sharia, was led by Ulemas who were committed to preserving the Prophet’s vision with the constant feeding and caring of the initial rules and laws with new knowledge and information. And, new thoughts and ideas were constantly added to Sharia.

    However, by early 12th century a superiority complex, “or we have everything, we dont need any infidel’s stuff” started setting in. Al Gazzali, one of the most famous philosphers and prolific writers at that time, started on a thesis that there was nothing non-islamic world could teach , and there is nothing to adapt from. His book “incoherence of Philosphers” made a turning point in Islamic philophy on its vehement rejection of Aristotle and Plato. It took aim at Falsfa, a loosley defined philosophers of golden age who drew intellectually on ancient Greeks. He bitterly denounced Greek philosphers as non believers and labelled those who employed their ideas as corruptors of Islamic faith. The great philospher Al GAzzali’s writings provided the cover for vested conservative members of Ulema to wrest religious power away from the Caliphs. They were waiting for the right occasion to shut down Ijtihad. This group believed Islamic civilization has reached its apogee and all needed interpretations (Ijtihad) have been accomplished.

    The widespread destruction of Bagdad caliphate by Mongols was widely believed to be the retribution from God for the deviance of Muslims(who changed Sharia through ijtihad). A concensus emerged that the gates of Ijtihad were closed.

    From then on dogmas squelched innovation. Instead of an Ulema who sought knowledge anywhere it existed, a new breed Ulema emerged who sought knowledge only in a limited area, the area of ISLAM AS THEY CONCEIVED iT, NOT THE WORLDWIDE LIBERATING
    AND LIGHT GIVING rRELIGION of the Quran and the Prophet, but an Islam as narrow and hidebound as religion will always become when a few people become the spokesmen of God , and stand between a man’s mind and God. The pursuit of natural science was abandoned. All knowledge coming from without was considered impious. Because it was the knowledge of infidels. The growth of pride accompanied the cult of ignorance.

    Shutting the door of itjihad blocked any questioning or any new interpretation or any adaptation with new information. This led to the freeze of islamic societies that continues today without able to reconcile current realities to the strict dogmas as it existed thousand years ago.
    Although military expansion still continued, it was nothing more than a land and tax expansion; literary, scientific, political and related contributions just froze. Islamic societies also basically froze from that point on..

    @ Shanghai University rankings — there were four Indian universities in the list (the list was for scientific and technology universities; as such IIMs are not included). Obviously China and Japan have many more. The reason I talked about India in this list is that India, despite beinga colonized country got onto this list; while none of the 57 OIC countries, most of them liberated around the same time, did not make into that list. The leftists,a s you know, blame everything on colonialism. for a colonized country, indian GDP is 12th in the world; obviously there is lot more progress needed. But I have only a sense of optimism, when I think we could have been Pakistan!

    @ conspiracy/Ignorance..Yes, there is ignorance everywhere. I was using the polio example to show how well-meant, good plans go unused and depravation continues.. Believing in astrology or milk drinking Ganesha are not destructive and not life debilitating as not vaccinating ones own childrean against polio.

    @ I always wonder what Noam Choskey would have done if there was not a country called USA. I am sure he must be blaming USA for the freezing of Ijtihad!
    He is a nutcase (Albeit a great linguist) !

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    This is getting very boring…but I really cant let you get away with your hypocritical stands like this.

    “Religious Muslims are governed by concepts such as Dar-Al-Islam and their daily lives dictated by the edicts of Quran and Hadith….. If we were discussing, say the Chritian sect or Budhist sect, this issue does not arise because they do not have these inalieble and irreconcilable concepts liek “Land of Islam vs land of infidels” “Umma or the influence of the larger worldwide Christian community etc. .”

    What is Roman catholicism? Is it not a worldwide movement? They even have a world leader the “POPE”. Hinduism is just a bad example since they are all in one place. Buddhism…well why does Richard Gere and many converted buddhists support Tibetan freedom movement , even though his government has good working relations with China? Would you say that this means there is a “supranational pan-buddhist” movement?

    On the Other hand if there is a pan Islamic identity, why then do the muslim countries fight each other all the time. Why did Iran and Iraq fight. Why does Iraq invade Kuwait? Why?

    Why does the Pope express anguish over killings of Christians in Orissa, and take up this issue with the Indian Government, and why do the governments in France and other western nations take it up with Dr Mammohan singh, to the extent that he says that he is ashamed to meet them after what happenend in Orissa?

    If on the other hand the muslims express support for Palestine then its evidence for “pan-Islamic movement” These are sheer double standards. The only difference today is the existance of powerful Islamic fundamentalists, this has nothing to do with Islam. There are such forces in all religions( as an example in India we have, as I have already pointed out -The sikh terrorists of the ’80’s).
    ….. the only difference is that today they are not as powerful. And this then brings us to the MOST important questions. How did these organizations mostly trained by the Al-Qaeda, the Taliban become so influential. The answer lies in the training and power given to them by the combination of the Saudi-Arabia, Pakistan who under US approval started encouraging the Wahabi interpretation and supporting one small fundamentalist sect amongst the highly heterogenous Islam and the US who provided them with weapons.

    “But I have only a sense of optimism, when I think we could have been Pakistan!…”

    Why dont you then compare with Bangladesh, Somalia, Nepal then you will feel more optimistic. I on the other hand would like to compare with China, Japan, and other south-east asian countries and also Europe and the North American countries.

    By the way you still have not answered whether, the fact of the European and south east asian progress as compared to India would imply that shin-tau, han culture or christianity is superior to hinduism?

    “I always wonder what Noam Choskey would have done if there was not a country called USA. I am sure he must be blaming USA…”

    Yes I have no doubts that people like you simply lack the moral clarity to understand some one like Noam Chomsky. To understand him you will first have to learn the difference between supporting a Government and being concerned about ones fellow citizens. But hypocrites like you wont ever get it.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Bobby

    Umma is not a pan-islamic “movement”. It is built in, it is in the DNA of all religious Muslims. I was trying to articulate how the pillars of Islam (btw, Islam means “submission”; Muslim means ‘one who submits” in Arabic) , without room for changes and modifications (such as nation states, patriotism, coexistence etc) due to the shutting off of ijtihad, contribute to Muslims’ problems that others do not have. The fundamental values of religious Muslims are unconditional conviction to Islam and a life lived according to its tenets, intimately connected to the Muslim’s perception of himseelf as a member of Umma.

    When Pope expresses a concern, he is expressing it on his own personal basis, as well as the religious leader of the practising Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholics, religious and non-religious, themselves, would not care a s— about the particular complaint.. They may view and care for it as a human problem, but not as a Roman Catholic problem. Ditto with Budhists – a thai Budhist does not care about the sufferings of Maynamar Budhists; however he may care about it as a human problem. A religious Muslim cares a lot about Chinese Uyghar Muslims’ plight; but he will not have any concern about Chinese/Tibetan Budhists (he may have; but he is a good Muslim even if he does not).

    @ Definitely, our aspiration should be to be the best of the best; reach tand exceed he levels of Asian miracle countries, and eventually create the best living standards. I am quite optimistic we will get there sooner than later. We have achieved quite a lot in 60 years; China and Japan and korea were not colonies. I was comparing with OIC mainly to dispute the myth that colonialism is the root of all the worlds problems. (yes, some problems). Dr Manmohan will be attending another G20 meeting in Pittsburgh in few weeks; PanIIT 2009 Alumni meeting will be getting together in early October in Chicago (with a plethora of world famous IITans and infamous ones like yours truly particpating) etc etc. Why wouldnt we be proud of our jewels like IIT, IIMs etc that we created as we were struggling along? (ya, you will say we craeted it at the back of our disadvantaged or sacrificing primary education!). Now that the government does not have to please the leftist parties, I anticipate the implementation of programs that will spur both rural and urban growth.

    @ South East Asian progress/European progress..I will not consider one or the other superior or inferior. And I did not say Islam is inferior – what I said was because of the uniqueness and absolutes of Islam as it is today, it creates roadblocks and problems. Muslims have to find a way out of this, may be similar to the Reformation of Christiandom.

    @ Noam Chomsky .. As I said, I do respect him as a linguist. I do not have any respect for a man who defended the killing fields and Pol Pots of Cambodia. He endoresed Mao Tse Dong’s collectivization program, a program that made 30 million Chinese perish. He is the two faced hypocrite, not me (btw you should not have called me hypocrite; not nice!). An “intellectual totalitarean,” with two faced morality; declaring himself as a libertarian and anarchist, he defended some of the most murderous and authoritarian regimes in human history. He would have been ousted from MIT long ago, but for the tenure system in American universities and the total intellectual freedom they offer.

    Bobby Reply:

    We should let people decide about what you said and how much statistical evidence you gave to back your claim vis-a-vis the points I am making. As far as I am concerned you have not given a single argument to back anything apart from a couple of personal experiences of “arabic shop names”. While on every point I have given you counter examples, and statistics from reputed sources.

    Regarding Chomsky, my advice to you would be to actually read even a single book he has written, instead of swallowing the dead arguments shown to be manifest lies several times over.

    singer Reply:

    Not only pope but also italian and french government intervened, when only few churches were attacked. Now you compare what is the reaction of muslim countries when thousand of people were slaughtered in gujrat 2002.

    Sam Reply:

    Gopi

    your statement

    “Muslims all over the world are affected by widespread illiteracy, underdevelopment, violence. ”

    There is more than what you are saying.

    Hindus as a religious group are the more affected by illiteracy, underdevelopment and at a total financial disadvantage.

    Chrisitians, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Sikh…

    all these religious groups are financially better off than Hindus.

    If at all poverty and illiteracy justify violence, Hindus should be committing them more, than any other religious groups.

    So there is a certain thing you are missing, that it takes more than poverty/illiteracy for a person to commit violence and terrorism.

    Inherently there is zero value for an infidel’s life in islam,..

    Imagine a poor Jain person becoming a Terrorist..
    (i know they are wealthy and mostly literate, but still currently i cannot visualize an jain terrorist or a parsi terrorist)..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    24 men paraded naked for drinking tea during ramzan in Pakistan.

    http://www.zeenews.com/news564406.html

    Zia should tell those pakistani officials how they are misunderstanding islam.
    Also tell those 24 naked paraded people, should have nothing to fear about Islam if only they understand more.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @ Thomas

    Interesting points. It shows the reason for one of your earlier comments – why there are very few authors among Muslims (Indian languages by Indian Muslism and Arabic language by Arabs). A closed mind cannot produce cerative , exploartory stuff.

    I wish some PhD rseracher reseraches into the Muslim contribution/lack of contribution in various Indian languages from regions where theer is a considerable Muslim population (South indian states, UP, Bihar, West Bengal,, Assam, Delhi, Maharashtra). I will be inteersted in contributions by local languages (Telugu etc) and Hindi.

    Thanks

    Sam Reply:

    people can be closed mind, but still be peaceful.

    people can be writing tons of books, and still be violent like Nazi germans.

    Fundamentally it has nothing to do with books.
    At some point in history, most countries and people had huge number of illiterates.

    So contribution to literature, writing books alone by itself is not an appropriate way to look at things.

    It is basically, if they believe violence is acceptable or not.
    Can Kufar/infidels be killed or not ?

    There should be a series of questions/polls to find out why muslims have a tendency to use more violence.

    they can take sample group of same level of education/wealth/literacy across many religions and i will not be surprised if more muslims justify violence…

    that is the crux of the problem..

    S Singh Reply:

    Sam

    You are right. There is so much violence in Islam now as evidenced by suicide bombings committed by some Muslims all across every day. However, Mr Thomas is not saying Musllims are committing violence because of poverty and illiteracy and other factors; he is saying that Islam itself, because of internal inherent unsolvable conflicts , has resulted in the Muslims’ miserable conditions worldwide – poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, violence -, and not the usual suspects such as colonialism as some leftists and Islamists will attribute to.

    Through the focus on early religious instructions through Madrasa, Muslims worldwide are “Book” (Quran) abiding . An individual’s life and lifestyle to a minte level is dicatted by the holy books. And many interpret it literally, and literal interpretations of many verses espouse violence, mainly “jihad”. One group will say “Jihad” is internal purification. However, many, as is demonstarted every day, consider Jihad as killing infidels, or even killing Muslims standing in their way of interpretation.

    However, interpretations aside, some can view Islam’s history, from origin itself, as one of violence. Prophet’s organization was initially to control the desert tribes of Arabia. He built his religion on the wealth acquired through raids on caravans and attacks on Medinah and Mecca. In one sense Quran can be considered as a aguide to war. Thievery was the way Prophet initially supported himself and conquest was the way Prophet and his followers initially spread Islam. Prophet was the religious, administrative, and military leader. A militant, Prophet said the sword is the key to heaven and hell.

    Many Muslim kings turned family and other human relations into hateful and grotesque perversions. No kings or aspiring princes have killed, poisoned, maimed, or imprisoned as many brothers, sons, fathers as the Muslim Kings have done in the last 1000 years!

    The separationism and exclusivity – infidels vs believers, land of islam vs land of infridels, etc create hard and fast issues for many Muslims that many other groups do not have to cope up with in their lives. Any deviation from its dogma gives right to kill in order to justify itself. Hence the fatwas. Under Islam, religion is the state. For a “true” Muslim, his first allegiance is to Islam. His nationality and other allegiances are secondary. Although Quran does prescribe rules for coexistence, some Mullahs overlook and preach only the violent part.

    Terrorists find inspiration and justification in Quran. The motivation is “Glory of Islam”. They want to ‘restore” an Islamic world as the Prophet articulated; they believe the world is helter -skelter . They dont believe in their leaders, in many instances they believe tehir leaders are in cohorts with the infidels, and their “jihad” is the only way to bring proper Islam worldwide. Their objective is not education reform or poverty elimination etc; they believe when everybody is a proper Mulsim, everything else will automativcally follow.

    There is a book titled “Looming Towers”. It is an excellent book. It traces how the anarchy, autocracy, blind adhrence to ideologies of self-glorifications created an Islamic world of cruelty and confusion and resulted in a culture and environment that produced Alqueda and its Muslim foot soldiers of mayhem and destruction.

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    Actually, it is allegiance to Allah and Prophet..

    However, in today’s view it is Islam (as a proxy)

    You are right there is no notion of nation.

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Thanks. I do hope the readers will take this further. The issues are deep, solutions limted, when one deals with archaic systems refusing changes.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    I attended a speech given by Prof Faud Ajami two years ago as a part of a Defence Planning forum. The subject was Arabia/Arab Muslims.

    This is what he said:
    “T E Lawrence had acted in Arabia to give the Arabs “the foundations on which to build an inspired dream palace of their national thoughts”……

    If the dream has become a nightmare, and palace a prison, who must accept responsibility? Arab Muslims themselves, who also put bars upon the windows of the “dream palace” and posted executioners in the gardens”

    [Reply]

    Shoeb K Reply:

    @Thomas @ Bobby

    Noam Choskey should be given the Indian Hindu-Muslim problem! It will be an easy solution for him! He will say the majority should take a hike and handover the country to Muslims!

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    @Bobby Thomas

    Karat and Brinda will join Noam Choskey in solving the problem!

    Indian leftists still dont get it. Rafts are sailing in another direction world over, including China and Russia!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Shoeb

    what you are demonstrating is your complete ignorance about Chomsky and his views. All the positions he takes is based upon two principles

    (1) Applying on the US (his country) the same principles that American leaders would apply on others.

    (2) Always stand by the powerless against any oppression by the powerful.

    S Singh Reply:

    @ Bobby

    Chomsky is a leftist. So, any oppression by communists, such as Mao, Pol Pot, Castro etc is alright with him.

    You are right. He holds American leaders to a standard (diffferent from other leaders!)

    America acts in its best interests (outwardly they may talk about democracy, but they pick and choose what is best for them – so they leave Saudi Arabia in place, but attack Iraq).
    There is nothing wrong in a counttry acting upon its best interests. I wish our Indian leaders did the same.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear S singh,

    please define “country’s best interest” to me. All organizations say precisely that its acting in the “best interests”. For instance the Nazis would have said the same thing to its population.

  • Sam

    http://www.zopag.com/news/imminent-threat-of-terror-attacks-across-india-israel-warns/7508.html#postCommentStory

    More islamic attacks on india..

    Zia, please tell that Hindus have nothing to fear if only they understand true islam.

    Hindus have nothing to fear from true muslims.

    those terrorist guys are not true muslim anyway.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    good work brother sam

    you are devoting a lot of time over here.

    Hats off to you

    Hindus are most docile people in the world, thats why India was always considered a sitiing duck by invaders like Babur, ghori etc.

    My salute to you

    Regards

    sanjeev

    [Reply]

    S Singh Reply:

    The invaders succeeded because there was no “india” when these guys rode in. It was all small chieftains, not major kingdoms, and the invaders played one little king against the other.

    Small kingdoms/chieftains neither had the army nor the rsources to fight a well-organized invader. So, the invaders will take over small kingdoms, string them together and become a formidable opponent to bigger kingdoms.

    Another major contributor (for take over by invaders) was that the local military was neither preapred nor battle tested because of the relative peace these kingdoms were in.

    Independent India focused on building a professional military that can fight professional armies. However, the test will be in a war. while we have won all the wars with Pakistan, the 1962 China encounter was a humiliation, both from a total misunderstanding of the enemy, as well as the military failure. VK Krishna Menon, being a socialist and a leftist intellectual, could never think that China will attajk us, especially a week after Chu En Lai came to india and he and Panditji proclaimed “Hindi Cheeni Bhai Bhai). Panditji died soon afte because of this shock.

    George Fernandez was the best defence minister we had.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Muslims should not have any fears from Hindus.

    Muslims should spend more time to understand Hindu philosophy and learn more, then they will not have any fear.

    All those people committting violence against Muslims in India are not true Hindus anyway.

    So all muslims just follow Zia’s advice to Hindus.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Arise my hindu brothers:
    See today’s TOI headlines (Mumbai edition)
    The supreme court has ordered that Secular Law prevailes over Hindu adoption and mainte nance law!!

    We must not tolerate any secular interference in our religious affairs. !!!!

    [Reply]

  • S Singh

    @Thomas @ Sam

    The current “art free, literature free, music free” uglinesss of Islam is the result of the shutting off of Ijtihad. The absence of questioning basically stopped the creative process, knowledge genration, and knowledge acquisition too.

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7473019.stm

    This is an article in the BBC which I think is very relevant to many issues, the intermingling of religions and blurring of religious identities in India, and the hardening of Identities in modern times due the the influence of both hindu and muslim fundamentalism. Interestingly it also gives “counter examples” to some regularly stated nonsense here on this blog regarding muslims not having “Indian names”.

    Thought people might find it interesting.

    [Reply]

    L Mirza Reply:

    Inteersting article. People can live in peace if the so called spokesmen/leaders are kept out!

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ Bobby

    This is a known fact that muslims respect local cultures as long as they are in a very insignificant minority.
    Rajasthan is such a case.

    I have my roots very near to the region this article mentions. I had my schooling (in a residential school) very near to Ajmer and I had two three muslims in my class. One of them happened to by my close childhood days. They were all good humans. We never knew that we follow different religions.

    But the moment I landed in university in delhi I saw many Bearded Mullahs with three quarters and their attitiude during cricket matches among university students. I had never found such instances in Rajasthan.

    Partly muslims study in same schools as others do and they don’t have many madrasas. Or they might have never read quran. But the day they read quran they show true mullahism.

    Then they turn like Zia.

    Btw whats your take on fatwa issued against salman khan for participating in puja ?

    Have you seen hindus(VHP/RSS etc issue fatwa against someone visiting Ajmer sharif ?

    You will see the so called tolerance is one sided.

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    I read somewhere that Muslims in high Muslim majority countries (such as Pakistan) behave like minorities. In minority countries (with their share <20%) paranoia sets in (“islam in danger”) and they want to be majority (so that they can act like minority!). The only “functioning” position is when they are 60-65%, with a highly developed minority to support them , such as in Malaysia. Bhoomiputra Muslims make 65% of the population, with the rest being Chinese and Indians. Chinese and Indians control theeconomy and make it run; while Bhoomiputras control the politics.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @ Sanjeev

    It is good there are people like Salman who speaks their mouth. Unfortunately, it is a small minority. The orthodox fundamentalists holding the “original” view (As it existed in 650) control the interpretation. THat is the problem.

    Sam Reply:

    Why blame “orthodox fundamentalists” only ?

    They are just following what is in Koran.

    Koran is very clear and precise and divine (as per muslims).

    If some other religious people want a different interpretation or deviation, why should the purists in Islam agree to it ?

    So either they stop looking for guidance in Muslim literature or stop listening to Mullah’s.

    I do not think either of them will happen soon.
    They think they are the winners.
    Their winning is based on how much they are growing in real numbers, how many countries they are passing Sharia laws….

    So as per their evaluation, they are winning and they visualize a whole world where everyone will be Muslim.

    They do not consider illiteracy, lack of music, literature as data points for progress.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @ Sam

    There is a fight between people like Salman (let us call them “moderates”) and the orthodox, rigid wing. The attacks we see in Pakistan is something like this (although they have fights on multiple planes – wahabi vs others, sunni vs shia, baloochi vs punjabi etc). At a fundamental level, Muslims killing Mulsims is this argument – modernity vs rigidity. And the Taliban, Al Queda etc are fighting on two fronts; against moderate Muslims as well as against all others.

    The only way it will get settled is when religion is taken out of daily lives like what happened during the Reformation Movement in Christianity during the middle ages. It will happen in Islam, the question is how long it will take, and by then would they have created a calamity in the world.

    Sam Reply:

    While I agree with you on the broad picture,,
    i have a different opninion.

    During reformation, christain groups struggled among themselves (pope vs protestants…)

    They did not go and kill other religious people.

    It is fine with me, if islam does it.
    Unfortunately they are killing others.

    Let them fight it out among themselves (intellectually prefarably) and i dont give a damn about their theological or religious issues, as long as I am not affected.

    If others are affected, the rest of the world should act.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Well, that is why US and other western nations have started acting. It is also imperative that Indian authorities stay focused on cross-border and internal terrorism.

  • Pankaj

    What then is India? A multi-ethnic stew of a thousand races, religions, castes, cultures and language — perhaps.

    “multi-ethnic stew” – one day it will be all Islamic and Hinduism will be lost :)

    You will be a happy chappy then Haq!

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    Pankaj

    India will remain a strong country bound by an enduring and glorious heritage that has been beacon to many.

    The freedom and independence brought various parts of the country together for the first time. The physical boundaries of Bharatha that Adi Sankara conceived thru his Mutts – south in Sringeri, North in Badrinath, West in Dwaraka, and East in Puri – have been configured by our leaders in 1947 with stable institutions to steer it. We all should be thankful to Vallabhai Patel for getting rid of kingdoms and forging all parts together.

    Now with modern communication technology, I believe the notion of India is deep in everybody.

    Our civilization and heritage go back in time; it will go forward even more robustly.

    India lives. India thinks.

    [Reply]

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