Heal or harm, the choice is ours



In New Delhi’s Connaught Place commuter Metro station, millions cross a flashboard message fit enough to be our national anthem: “None of us is stronger than all of us”. This is rip-snorting good to be the collective mantra of all humanity as well.

Astounding, what comes about when the fuse-blowing adrenaline is put aside. Not with a counter-hormone from the drug store, but with some native good sense. Adrenaline is said to drive the “fight or flight reaction”, a physiological process the human body undergoes when confronted with mental or physical stress.

You must have seen it on the Discovery Channel or Animal Planet. How does a lion act when he goes crazy, such as when he sees a ready-to-eat meal of wild buffaloes? It is the predator’s adrenaline that powers its pounce on the prey.

Jinnah’s adrenaline rush was behind his call for “direct action day” or the Great Calcutta Riot on August 16, 1946. But it paled when the Mahatma walked barefooted through the blistering alleys of Bengal, but not before a wave of killings. The hormone was at work in Gujarat again, where the marauders could feel the adrenaline creep upwards from their extremities.

Enemies can be instantly eliminated when turned into friends. Today, we need a champion of communitarian unity because there is none. The Mahatma, the Band-aid for bleeding hearts, we no longer have the luxury of.

There are some islands still, where deference to one another’s ways is native and some men who could resist the adrenaline rush. On August 2, the Kerala chief of the Indian Union Muslim League, Panakkad Syed Muhammedali Shihab Thangal passed away. We lost one unflappable Muslim leader, who, when most of India convulsed with riots after the Babri mosque was razed, ordered that not a single Hindu be harmed.

I had met Thangal in Ajmer Sharif, sometime in 2007. Somebody let it slip that Thangal was resting at a friend’s house, not far from the dargah. Two words I remember he told me were important: middle path.

It is no secret that some bristling Hindus will continue to have a seething vision of Muslims. And some malevolent mullah will cringe at the very sight of every kafir (the Arabic word for unbeliever, not enemy).

Yet, there is a way to win this war on faith clashes, one that has to be fought unconventionally. Get frank, not fastidious. Talk honestly, not hectoringly. Admit faults, don’t hide them.

We have forgotten a magic word: compromise. Maybe, we need to borrow a fresh one form the Japanese dictionary: jui-jitsu, literally meaning the “art of softness,” or “way of yielding”, though Jui-jitsu popularly is a form of martial arts that involves a soft engagement of the enemy.

It is time to take one hard look. We need to start by asking some basic questions. So, we cannot stick together. Can we stay apart? Is it possible and can we consider this as an option?

Another Partition? For whom? Where? Let Muslims fall off the map again when we can never really keep apart even if we try? Can we break up children playing in the park or keep them from sharing school benches?

Thankfully, we have run out of all options. There is no option but to pull down the mental walls. No way out, other than to share the turf. Our menu has just one option: Unity. Take it or leave it. The toss-up is between two words: Heal and Harm. The choice is ours. And you tell me what to take.

Cadence is not the answer, true. Compromise is. Why is it so difficult, I do not understand. Don’t we make compromises at every step of our lives? We want bigger apartments, but settle for smaller ones. We aspire for BMWs and Mercs but settle for Marutis. We hope for chunky salary hikes, but make do with none. We gun for IITs and IIMs but when we cannot get through, we opt for less-reputed institutions. We would all like exotic holidays abroad but head for the nearest hill station instead. Why can’t we accommodate ourselves as Hindus and Muslims?

That’s because right-wingers always seem to be getting effective. They will not let the adrenaline levels to fall. One ominous call and Gujarat was burning. We know, in the case of Gujarat riots, Muslims started it, torching a train carrying advocates of a Ram temple in Ayodhya. But there’s always somebody who strikes first.

We are indeed a nation of notions. Here are some: Muslims are potential terrorists. The Quran preaches violence, so there can never be peace between Hindus and Muslims. Indian Muslims’ loyalties are suspect. They gloat in the victory of Pakistan in a cricket match. (How are Pakistani fans of Indian movie star Aishwarya Rai treated, I wonder.) All Muslims had better lived in Pakistan. A devout Hindu is obviously Muslim-unfriendly. Ad nauseum.

Let me keep things simple. These notions are clearly based on old pre-conceptions. When these pre-conceived notions are cleared up, we end up solving the problem. It is difficult to demonise someone you have met. Have you thought about this lately? That is why we should mix up.

Remember the anthem I started off this essay with? There is a corollary to that statement. It is this: none of us is smarter than all of us. In problem-solving, two minds are better than one. So, let us put our brains together and keep the adrenaline from going up.

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  • http://incorrectpolitically.wordpress.com/ Akhilesh

    Zia,
    Some very simple queries which might help resolve the quandrary that you so evocatively describe.

    1. Should a Muslim girl in her teens, have the right to go to her school, a secular school whether aided or not by the government but which prescribes dress code ( secular dress code, mind you) in burqua?

    2. Should the Muslim personal law be amended to disallow polygamy and insert means to prevent the misuse of the talaq provisions and indeed insert some other gender neutral provisions? Come to think of it, since indpendence, the Hindu marriage act has been amended on several ocasions to keep pace with modern times ( and mostly to enhance rights of women) , but I cannot remember even one instance when the Muslim Personal law has been amended. ( I may be wrong and stand to be corrected).

    3. The batla house encounter : Since that day, and till today, the consensus in almost all self annointed secular champions ( like Prashant Bhushan), the likes of the VC of Jamia, Prof. Hasan and others has been that it was a fake encounter. The secular briagade, till this day, is fighting with all guns blazing to prove that it was a false encounter. They have refused to go by even the latest NHRC report. Same government organisations, when they something even verbally against the Modi Govt, are taken at face value and proof bandied of complicity of Modi and others in Gujrat riots. But when the same NHRC gives a written report to Delhi High Court saying that Batla House encounter was genuine, secular worthies question its basic competence to arrive at such a conclusion !!

    Now the Indian Mujahedin (IM), which was in news almost every month of 2008 till that encounter, has been unherad off ever since that encounter. Almost a year now. Thats as strong an empirical evidence as you get that at least some members of the IM were actually bumped off that day. Yet the hounding of Delhi police continues.

    Should not the Muslims in general now accept that the batla house encounter might have been genuine?

    Finally :I compliment you, for you are the first writer from the secular briagde who has written that even Muslims had some complicity in the 2002 riots of Gujrat. If only the other regular commentators also felt some sympathy for th 59 people burnt alive in the S-6 coach that day?

    Since these are times of conjectures on history, think about this possibilty. If the regular media took up the cause of the 59 so brutually burned, would it have been, that the average Hindu Gujrati have felt that indeed there is outrage in equal measue against brutality on Hindus too. Instead the average Hindu Gujrati was served homily all the times. Of a kind that how those 59 deserved what they got. And in such an atmosphere, it was easy for likes of Modi and others to utilise that sentiment for their own purposes. If only the atmosphere itself had not been created, what could Modi have utilised.

    I know Gujrat possibilty is conjectural. But points 1-3 are not. Think about it. Does any of those in any way diminish the religeous freedom of Muslims. If not then should it not be easy to answer them.

    Yyou know as well as I do, the answers to the questions 1-3. They are so simple to answer. Yet so nigh impossible that the answer which will change the discourse, knock the bottom out of Hindu right wingers, will ever be given.

    It’s easy Mr. Zia to keep lobbing the ball in the other court. For once it’s in your own court. Deal it with correctly and just see how easy everything is.

    Regards,

    [Reply]

    Altamash Reply:

    Dear Akhilesh,
    The same task u have done which u averse easy ‘the blame game’. After reading ur reply felt that how much anti muslim feeling u have doctrined. Brother the three questions ae no doubt very simple to answer but before that i’ll put the questions to u.
    1. Why demolition of Babri mousque.
    2. Mumbai riot’s sri krishna report has not been implemented yet even clearly finds the complicity of police.

    [Reply]

    J. A. Mansuri Reply:

    Being an Indian National we are at present comfort living in secular state (bit torned), series of communal riots since 1947 till 2002 (Babri demolition). I represent Gujarat where all cities, villages, business, educational institutes (except National), news-paper, security agencies, Judiciary (unfortunate) are biased, suffering from Islamphobia. Besides ample good experience. I reside in Juhapura with minimal infrastructure facilities, health, hygeine, sports, garden, proper schools, no Girls / Buoy College, no Technical Institutes. Security agencies are obsessed with corruption. An educated Muslim Boy – irrespective he is religious or non-religious is castigated, i know case of a Psychiatric (NIMHANS product) Muslim boy frustrated for job-practicing future in Gujarat or India.
    We Muslim do not believe on resources but in Almighty God, Who is Sole Dispenser of All Resources. Besides we experience lot of good experience from secular Hindu are still open minded and understand the chemistry of politics of fascist. Before 2001-Earthquate Hindu Muslim unity was fantastic. For politics it is BJP and Congress have polarized and tormented fabric of nation. Still many Indian want to live and coexist with differences. Muslims are improving on education. Similarly, we cannot compromise on Quranic injunction ordained by God, at the same time Ijtehad concept is a blissful in Islam, if we do not found any solution from Quran, Hadith, religious scholars could find out way in light of Holy Quran and Hadith that to permitted by Almighty God, who is Sole Benefactor of Humanity. Comfort and conveniency of definition in religion will lead no where.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I want muslims to condemn “Death upon leaving Islam” verses.

    Can they condemn an 80yr old marrying 10yr old (as per Sharia according the 80yr old).

    We dont care what your religion or texts say.

    We do not want this stupidity.

    It is up to you to interpret whatever you want, but the world is not going to tolerate such an unholy marriage alliance.

    Can you pass a resolution, that in Pakistan a president can be Hindu ?

    Until then, you just talk the talk, and just complain (without agreeing or realizing how bad things can be, if Hindus just follow what Muslims do in OIC).

    You have to appreciate what you got, before complaining for ever.
    If it was up to muslim politicians, you will not even have a secular country.

    Just look at Afghanistan and Pakistan, what direction they went.

    Thank the enlightened and secular Hindu politicians, who provide you an opportunity to even complain.

    Ahmed Reply:

    Sam- Are u Blind or biased or both ? U keep talking about Afghanistan Pakistan and what a handful groups are doing and ignore what the US UK and Israel are doing in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, and all other Muslim Countries at Govt level

    That is the natural and minimum reaction u can expect from the people since the Govts of these countries have failed to protect the interests of people

    I am afraid it may increase with more attacks on Muslim people around the world , latest being Iran

    Sam Reply:

    What US/UK/Israel is doing in Iraq/Afghanistan,,

    has nothing to do with

    1. Apostasy laws in afghanistan (they are based on islam)
    2. Why a hindu is banned from becoming president in Pakistan ?
    3..

    many many things.

    These were on books because islam said so.

    So what is stopping them from removing them ?
    Is it islam or USA/Israel ?

    Indian Reply:

    Mr. Mansuri,

    A few points.
    Firstly, I appreciate the by and large positive tone in y our message and would like to reciprocate the sentiment.

    Second – I want to point out a few distortions in your message.
    - You mention that hindu muslim unity in gujarat before 2001 was fantastic. This is false. Gujarat has witnessed as many as 38-40 riots post independence. The biggest riots were in 1969 and 1985 with many other smaller riots. Both these riots lasted longer and had more deaths than 2002. You say the people in gujarat have islamophobia. Do you know that except 2002 in almost all riots more hindus have died in gujarat? Dont you know that most riots happened before babri masjid episode (and hence no bearing to it)? Do you know that per police records the muslims were one way or other responsible for starting most of the riots (as in 2002 too)? And finally during all these riots it was the congress which was in power and not the BJP and hence you cannot even ascribe a communal motive. Infact BjP/jansangh was not even a strong opposition? I do not mean to either denigrate islam or say that muslims are bad, but these are facts and obviously the hindus have a deep sense of hurt and distrust because frankly they have suffered much more in riots. For the first time after BJP came to power, the no. of riots reduced drastically and that was why the peace was there till 2001, only to be broken by the burning of the train. I am not even going to riots before 1947 because in those riots almost invariable only hindus died because muslims were the ruling class. You can check the records, since you live in ahmedabad. Dont you know how abdul latif was sheltered for 10 years by the muslims of dariapur? Dont you know that sohrabuddin was a driver of abdul latif and was accused in 50 criminal cases?

    Second – you talk about juhapura. I agree that it is a backward area. You blame the current adminstration there or the hindus. But perhaps you have heard of cheetah camp in Mumbai. It is also a muslim dominated area and worse than juhapura. Lo and behold, it has a congress govt. for the last 10 years and indeed for bulk of the period post 1947. I do not think the govt. alone and hindus are responsible for either juhapura or cheetah camp. You need to look into reforming yourselves. You make a valid point that muslims are getting more educated and I think that and that alone is the real solution. Education will help solve a lot of the problems with the muslims and I hope for the best.

    At the same time, I wish the mistrust reduces and discrimination also reduces and everyone lives as one.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    “Do you know that per police records…” This is very easy to explain. There is documented proof of police bias and complicity in for instance the mumbai riots. There are tapes which recorded the statements of the police acting in a bias manner against the minorities.

    Secondly the congress is not the “epitome of secularism”. Elements of the Hindu Mahasabha has had influence over that party right from the pre-independence days. The only difference, though its a big and important difference, between the BJP and the Congress, is that the former is “ideologically communal”, while the latter is “ideologically opportunistic”…it becomes secular or communal depending on the circumstances.

    “frankly they have suffered much more in riots…”

    No sir, empirical data and logic both are against your argument.

    Logic because, when every power structure- police power , political power , economic power, academic power, numerical superiority, is overwhelmingly in the hands of the “hindus”, its hard to believe that they could suffer more in riots,

    and empirical data because every statistic of various human rights organizations as well as government findings show exactly the opposite.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    Your logic has no logic. YOu somehow try to bring in logic and use fiction as a counter to facts. Please get real. Empirical and actual data is what I have provided, not some fiction you are giving. I will come to power structure in a minute. Until 1969 the hindus in gujarat have not even been known to retaliate and have invariable suffered hugely. You perhaps do not know enough about gujarat. Gujaratis hindus have never been really known for their fighting abilities. Infact most of them are supposed to be mild and tend to avoid physical confrontation. Also, there is a serious problem if you think that each and every police man has been communal for each of the 40 riots for all these years.

    But to counter the point, riots in ahmedabad alone have been recorded in 1714, 1715, 1716, 1750, 1850, 1892, 1906, 1927, 1946. These are only some and not the exhaustive list. For most of the periods the ruling class was muslims, the daroga’s were muslims, the administration was muslims and at a later stage at senior levels the administrators were british. Even these have recorded cases similar to the post independence data. The above gives you enough statistics on power structure. Also, no meaningful human rights organization have recorded any substantive data pertaining to gujarat before 2002.

    Some of the reasons recorded for communal riots – gulal got inadvertently spilled on muslims so they attached the hindu mohalla and destroyed temple property, the temple bells disturbed muslims offering namaz so they destroyed teh temple, a cow strayed into a moharram procession so they attacked the hindus and temples, etc. These are actual notings and not my assertions. Do remember that the power was with muslims and not hindus.

    The least you can do is accept the truth and facts and then we can build an argument. I never told muslims are bad or inherently communal and I do not think that is the case and neither do I intend to draw that conclusion. But you try to counter anything and everything based on conjecture and that only creates fundamentalism.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    “I never told muslims are bad or inherently communal and I do not think that is the case and neither do I intend to draw that conclusion”

    Firstly, I have not accused you of saying anything communal. I was simply countering your points.

    Now coming back to your post, well I did not know you were talking of records of pre-independence India!!! I am talking of the present, not of 200 or 60 years back….

    What I told you about were records in the case of the Mumbai riots and these are facts which have been well recorded. The actual statements of the police are taped and they shown a clear biased mind against the hindus.

    But since we are talking of different things and eras I guess there is nothing to argue about!!

    Indian Reply:

    Dear Bobby,

    I am in full agreement that srikrishna report should be implemented. I am also of the contention that you should look at all riots (even if you choose to look only post independence, when 38 riots have taken place) and understand what I am trying to point. The specific instances prior to independence were to illustrate that power structure favoured the muslims, then and hence your contention on power structure and bias were completely misplaced. My points were specific to Mr.Mansuri’s statements and with reference to the sufferings of hindus in communal riots in gujarat. You keep talking about 2002 (which one should) but completely disregard all other riots. When you look at all the riots, you will see that in gujarat the hindus have suffered many more times in riots in gujarat. Please understand the context of the events and pyscology of the state. Please read again. Best luck.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    Point taken. Thank you.

    I have never claimed that Muslims are not capable of injustice. Depending on who has the power, its going to be misused, and therefore the attempt of all right meaning people should be oppose it.

    Its not my claim that no injustice was ever done during Mughal period or pre-independence India, Its just that I simply choose to talk of present day problems, and all that I say is always in this context.

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Altamash,
    I appreciate that you read my reply and have considered it important enough to post your own. And indeed equally appreciable is the fact that you have also posted some questions that trouble an average Mulsim.

    Here is my response:

    1. Babri Mosque: Well I am sure you are aware of the arguments on both sides of the divide. Let’s not get into it at the moment. But consider this. Was Babur an Indian or not? By any yardstick, he was not. He was an invader of India. Surely Akbar and all other Mughals were Indians as they were born here, raised here and assimilated in Indian culture. But Babur was not an Indian. He was an Afghani. Infact I don’t know whether you know or not, but he defeated Ibrahim Lodhi in Panipat in 1526. So indeed, he was not even a Muslim benefactor liberating India. For to capture India he massacared Mulsims themselves.

    He was an out and out invader against India. Babri Masjid was less a mosque and more the tomb of an invading king. I am sure as a modern Indian, you would not like tombs and victory signs of invading murderers.

    The way it was demolished can be questioned. In a society with rule of law, there should be ways to deal with issues. But in your hearts of heart, tell me Altamash, was that structure a mosque or a symbol of an invading victor. If you answer this question, you perhaps know the answer.

    2. Shri Khrishna Report: Well I agree with you that it should be implemented immediately. But should so many other reports be. I bet there are 1000 of reports that are lying with govt gathering dust. Unfortuntaley thats how the government in India functions. But the trick is, not to make this issue a hostage to development on other fronts. Fir example, why should the development on Muslim Personal law be held hostage yo implementation of report.

    Look forward to hearing from you. And no Altamwash, I am not indoctrinated against Muslims. Infact my family runs a boutique where we employ about 10 people, 8 of whom are Muslims !

    Regards,

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Akhilesh,

    About the Babri Masjid issue, In my opinion, whether the mosque was built by an Invader or not is irrelevant to the issue. These are historical questions, and we should not be in the buisness of undoing history. The arguments you are giving could have been made pretty much for the victoria memorial and/or the gateway of India, clearly that is not a reason to destroy it right?

    The second point about the lack of any relation between implementation of the Sri Krishna commission report and reforming Muslim personal law is well taken, and I would agree that there is no reason one should depend about the other.

    But independent of the relation between the two, the fact still is that the Srikrishna commission report has not been implemented while the biggest goonda in Mumbai, Balasaheb Thakeray roams free even after openly issuing hate speeches (as well as interviews to foreign correspondents) which is clearly against the Indian laws. He gets away in the same way a mafia don gets away …simply issuing open threats that Mumbai will burn if he is arrested.

    Sam Reply:

    Hate speech is in my opinion
    1. asking for Sharia
    (where your version of hating woman is acceptable and you can create Pedophiles like an 80 yr old can marry 10yr old).

    2. Hate speech is saying only Islam is the path and the country should not be secular
    (look at what Pakistan is doing).

    3. Hate speech is defending that “Hindu cannot be president in Pakistan” laws.

    4. Hate speech is defending the “2woman witnesses = 1 man witnesses”

    5. hate speech is saying “a man needs 4 wifes”

    These ideas and religious based idealogies degrade a woman and deny human deceny and rights.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Dear Sam,

    You may not like this much, but I have to say that you are flogging too many wrong horses and too often.

    What do you achieve by Indian Muslims
    (a) demanding a Hindu president in Pakistan? Or in any other Muslim country?
    (b) condemning 80yrs old marrying 10 year old, even if it happens in india, where you have laws that should address it?
    (c) condemning 2 woman – 1 man principle or death for leaving , jizya on hindus and sikhs in Pakistan etc.

    As far a I know, India is not governed by these rules and even Muslims are not asking for these. Your points would be valid if some people want these laws here and do so publicly and then you protest or demand condemnation.

    Your concern for non-muslims in Islamic countries is fine but that won’t change just because Indian muslims condemn these practices.

    Pretty much the same about history, what can present day muslims do about that? Well theoretically, you can question those who have a problem with Mr Modi while praising Aurangzeb, but that still does not take us anywhere. You can’t prosecute Aurangzeb today

    I am not saying everything you say fits the above description but quite a few do and they are neither relevant nor actionable. Even after ignoring these, you have quite a few contemporary issues.
    Of course I do acknowledge your right to brush aside these and continue with the same approach.

    Sam Reply:

    What is happening in Islamic countries, and neighboring countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan is a harbinger of future.

    As much as you like to live in an isolated India, it is not going to happen.
    Muslims get inspiration from what is happening in their “holy lands”, as it is their role model.

    What happens “there” will likely be repeated sooner or later in India.

    If people want to live like an ostrich that is fine.

    If only the rulers of India, Persia had foresight before islamic marauders came knocking on their door, they could have avoided mass killing of Zoroastrians and Hindus..

    All along in the history, indians did not look “outside” to know what is happening and it is too late by the time they realized.

    I am looking into the future and warning what is going to come..

    You cannot prosecute Aurangazeb today (even morally), as muslims do not condemn Jiziya.
    They still believe it is God’s word, as per Koran.

    If they even make a statement that what Aurangazeb did is against islam or wrong, that will help.
    But do not count on that happening, if they do it they will be committing Blasphemy.

    Sam Reply:

    Protesters threaten bloodshed over Hindu temple

    Dead cow’s head left in the front

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/36272-protesters-

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    1. The use and importance of Jizya was smarter than we think. As we know any job involving maximisation or minimisation is always subject to constraints. “Smart” managers find ways which allow them to pursue their objectives while operating within the constraints. have a look:

    “…. Greatest nobles of his Court represented to him that a large sum was realized and paid into the public treasury, and that if it were abolished, a great reduction in the income of the State would take place. The Emperor observed,

    Anil Reply:

    Jizyah was a tool to sponsor the war efforts of islamic armies.. ocne they even resorted to putting jazayah on non-arb muslims when there were nto enough non-muslims around to fund the blood-thiorsty islamic army’s war efforts..

    Umar II khalif abolished this practice of putting jazayah on non-arba muslims who they call mawali even today..and needless to say he was kileld by his own men for this abomination

    Syed Reply:

    Dear Mr. Akhilesh,
    Your questions are easily answered…
    1) By and large, most muslim girls (including mine!) have the right to & are going to to go to secular schools/colleges sans burkha/headscarf. I know this for a fact in Delhi & Lucknow. I see no reason why this trend should not be present in other places.
    There are two issues here, one is what Islam says & the other is what muslims actually do. While muslims will never say anything against their religion as they are all afraid of everlasting hellfire, a majority of them do not follow most of what it enjoins – including wearing a burqua.
    Islam makes it compulsory for girls/women to dress modestly and have their hair covered. However Islam also prohibits pictures/paintings of human beings (which also includes movies/TV, books, magazines etc.- as these also include pictures), some interpretations ban music also, apart from a host of other things! However I don’t know of a single muslim who follows these strictures.
    So to repeat – In my view a muslim girl has full right to a secular school/college and to wear a dress code prescribed by the institution.

    2) I see no reason why the MPL should not be amended to include clauses such as disallowing polygamy.

    3) I agree that that there is more chance than not of the Batla house encounter being genuine.

    I hope that answers your issues.

    Regarding the Gujarat riots, did Modi really need help from the atmosphere of “homilies” created by the regular media to commit the riots. I do not think so!

    [Reply]

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Dear Mr. Syed,
    Your reply above, I presume, is the cry of an educated Indian who wants to get on in life and leave these issues of communal bigotry as relics of past. Indeed your reply is so well structured that it leaves little reason for debate, except on the Gujrat riots and Modi, where we can agree to disagree.

    The tragedy is, however, that such reasonable and logical stand as the one taken by you will never be shared by any representative Muslim body.

    Again I ask the question? If the views that you took were to be taken by, say, the All India Muslim Personal Law Board ( AIMPLB), the entire edifice on which the Hindu right wingers have based their case would be knocked out. They will have nowhere to go and nothing else to complaint against. Just think of the catalysmic effect it will have, if the MPL is amended. Greater gender equality for Muslim women ( and by the way that should be the only reason why it should be done) and absolutely no grounds left for the likes of hindu right.

    About the burqa issue, you must have read media reports from Mangalore. Its such needless and totally pointless flare ups that feed the sterotype against Muslims.

    Lets hope people like you have godspeed !

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    Dear Mr. Akhilesh,

    First of all, what is a “representative muslim body” or representative muslim Individual in India? Sadly there is none. The so called “leaders” of muslims – People like Delhi’s Imam – syed bukhari, Zafaryab Jilani of BMAC fame (who incidentally was a petty hand to mouth lawyer before he wormed himself into the BMAC) et al would not even be able to contest an MLA election. So much for representing muslims. The truth is that here is simply no body or individual in India who commands any significant pan indian muslim following. No member of the AIMPLB is selected through something like an election

    So what is the solution? In my view the Govt. should simply do away with the MPL and let muslims (and all other citizens) be governed by a common secular law. While muslims in the west have no problems with a secular law (except the crackpot few) there is no earthly reasons why muslims here would have any problem. Sure, there might be protests, demos etc. initially but that is democracy. In other words, for god sake, finish the issue instead of flogging is for decades.

    However I seriously do not think that having a common law would be some sort of panacea. India has some very good laws, is their implementation that is the problem. For example I do not think that the law would stop muslims (and hindus) men who want to have more than one wife! And the issue would definitely not deflate the right wingers. Hate is an extremely powerful emotion and there is no dearth of issues other than the MPL for them!

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Why don’t we see more of you on this blog? But, seriously.
    You are the sort of folks (Muslims/ Hindus alike) I have known and sat up till 3 AM talking/ arguing with since my college days. Never with rancour and always with friendship.

    I wish I could share your equanimity/ nonchalance about “secularization” of our personal laws. Unfortunately, politics in India is hostage to identities. You might say and ofcourse I agree that “finish the issue instead of flogging it for decades” but, rightly or wrongly the politicians think, they will get more votes by aligning with the far right. At the risk of again being labeled a Hindu bigot, I say that politicians at least have not made as much effort in pandering to the Hindu right as to the Muslim right (and as a Hindu, thank God for that!).

    Which brings me to what I find is the main issue with this blog; not just this post.

    I have grown up to believe that if I am in a hole, either individually or collectively, I should make efforts to climb out of it myself. Others might help, but only after they see me try my best.
    In the light of my deeply held belief, I ask you:
    1. Who is the audience of this blog? Is the objective to generate understanding of the problems faced by the Muslims in India or to make Hindus feel defensive about the state of the Muslims in India?
    2. Since there is distrust between two communities, should not the Muslims introspect at least as much as the Hindus? Or, is it that all the problems with Muslims in India are traced back to lack of understanding of their aspirations, customs etc on the part of the majority community?

    I commend your courage in acknowledging the serious lack of political leadership within your community. This is the single biggest issue, that I think holds Muslims back from progress. Because political will is needed to push a development agenda. I daresay, it needs to be a secular agenda. But, it needs to be “sold”. And, that’s why, we need right-thinking politicians. Think of joining politics?

    If you notice, there are at least as many Hindu secularists telling off “Hindu bigots” such as us on this blog. We constantly are reminded how the “BJP-wallahs” and the “Hindu-right-wingers” are generating hate-mail. If only all of us lent ourselves to such neat packaging! And, if only we could subscribe to a view of history that says Hindus and Muslims lived together as “brothers” all along till Hindu Mahasabha types came and spoilt it all!

    I confess; this blog is making me a “hardliner”. Before I started reading this blog, I was a fairly “sabka malik ek” kind of bloke. Then, I started reading the insidious propaganda on these pages which took no responsibility but only blamed Hindus for everything. So, I started reading blogs on other Muslim sites (the reasonable ones :-) )
    What struck me was, that many writers in those blogs were scholarly and erudite. I have learnt a lot from what they write. But, the comments section was virtually monopolized by people who, frankly, you will feel extremely uncomfortable with.
    Again, thank you (and Akhilesh) for starting this thread of comments.

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,

    Read what Hindu’s had to live through in Aurangazeb’s time.

    I wish this is actually taught as a part of history, not some whitewashed stories.

    Muslims should be happy, that majority of Hindu’s still do not know what their anscestors had to go through. If they know the real history, there will be revulsion.

    ===================
    Jadunath Sarkar, “The Islamic State Church in India,” History of Arungazeb, vol 3l Northern India, 1658-1681 pp 283-97. The scholar K. S. Lal records this translation “and should the collector choose to spit into his mouth, op in tens the same without hesitation, so that the official may spit into it.” Lal further notes that “actual spitting in the mouth of the non-Muslims was no uncommon.” Lal cites a poem by Vijaya Gupta (1493-1519 CE) which includes the line, “The peons employed by the qazi tore away the sacred thread of he Brahmins and spat saliva in their mouths,” From Theory and practice of Muslim State in India, pp. 238-39n 124 as quoted on page 111 of The Legacy of Jihad, edited Andrew Bottom.

    Quoted in the same book, page 29: Shafi jurist an-Nawawi, “The infidel who wishes to pay his poll-tax must be treated with disdain by the collector; the collector remains seated and the infidel standing in front of him, his head bowed and his back bent. The infidel personally must place the money on the scales, while the collector holds him by the beard, and strikes him on both cheeks.”
    ==========================

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    Mr Sam,

    All I can say is that if the 800 years of muslim rule in India had been so communal and vicious as you will have me to believe, & muslims had a single point agenda of conversion, then there would not have been a single hindu left in India at independence.

    Sure, Aurangzeb was a bigot and an extreme one, but what about the rest? By your yardstick do I say all hindus are like Modi. Obviously not!

    Sam Reply:

    Yes they achieving it step by step.
    Current day Pakistan is almost ethnically cleansed of HIndus.
    Kashmir valley is happening right in front of everyone’s cameras.

    It is happening in Bangladesh.

    So just open your eyes and record what what is happening.

    Modi did not impose Jiziya so he is not even remotely comparable on that front.

    He did not make it a rule to spit into people’s mouth…

    Evil idealogies have to be driven out of human mind.
    Let us start with whole of India first.

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,

    How can you say 800 years would have been enough to finish every hindu ?

    I see arrogance and ignorance in that statement.
    but some much history is white washed and I am sad, to see such an ignorant statements from so many muslims.

    Read the real history, not the history taught in Madrassah by some Mullah.
    How many countless people committed suicide instead of becoming slave to some idiiot islamic crook.

    How the biggest genocide in the world happened in India against Hindus.
    As per some estimates it runs close to 80 million people killed.

    read chachnama and the atrocities committed in Sindh, and as recorded by Muslims themselves.

    these historical records are not by some right wing Hindu.
    These are muslims themselves, gloating their violent nature.

    Bobby Reply:

    One more point,

    Reforming the Muslim personal laws is an issue which effects muslim women and the only reason one should be concerned about it is in that respect. What I mean is that laws that are unfair to muslim women should be undone simply because of that fact.

    However what the hindutva supporters do is to use that as a case of “appeasing minorities”. Its almost as if they hate the fact that Hindu men are being discriminated against by not being allowed to marry 5 times when Muslim men can!!

    I should clarify that I did not mean you when I said that but many people who do use this point do intend to use it as a case of “muslim appeasement”.

    Secondly what you say about Gujarat is simply not true. Firstly there was much bigger coverage of the riots than the Godhra incident for two reasons.

    (1) The scale of what followed was several times bigger than the incident itself.

    (2) More importantly, the Gujarat riots was state sponsored. This is the big difference between the two cases.

    Secondly when you say that “Instead the average Hindu Gujrati was served homily all the times. Of a kind that how those 59 deserved what they got.”… This is just not true. No one ever said that “they got what they deserved”

    Fact is exactly the opposite. The Gujarat government is inefficient and could not catch the real culprits, or perhaps did not want to. When the incident happened they declared, without proof almost immediately that it was “pre-planned” attack. I should emphasize WITH ZERO EVIDENCE, which was later found to be not true. Why would it do that? well simply to incite hatred and cause mass murder.

    I do not think that the Gujarati Hindus are any different from people anywhere else. It is the atmosphere of mistrust that the Sangh parivar rule had purposefuly created in Gujarat that led to such a scenario.

    The Government of Gujarat as well as the Sangh parivar was largely responsible for what happened. The mobs were led in many parts by BJP and RSS workers, some of whom have since been arrested after the SIT findings.

    Finally, about the Batla incident: While I do not know what the facts are, but people like Prashant Bhushan are doing exactly what they should be doing. They believe that the NHRC has not seriously questioned the police version, and that is why think that the case should be re examined. I don’t see how that can be such a bad thing?? Power structures are kept in check precisely by questioning and opposing them, and I for think that its a commendable job that they are doing, even if they were to be wrong in this case.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Where are the compromises or reforms offered by Muslims to live in India ?

    They want everything for themselves, as per their muslim god.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    Mr Sam,

    Lets start with Pakistan. I checked on the net in whatever little time I got, on the hindu populations in Pak in the census years 1988 and 1998. Wikipedia tells me that as of 1998, Pakistans hindu population was 3,200,000 or 1.85 percent of the population. The 1988 census recorded 2,443,614 Hindus in Pakistan or 1.846% of the entire population. In other words hindus are holding their own and actually increased both in absolute terms and as a percentage of the population. This certainly does not indicate ethnic cleaning.
    Further, please note that the muslim population in Indian Punjab is practically zero as this was the area geographically closest to Pakistan and most affected by it. We can assume the same happened to Pakistan punjab!

    Reg. Kashmir valley, I agree that hindus have more or less migrated away from there. But the reason is primarily to do with Pakistani terrorists than with anything else. However I wish to state in unequivocal terms , there is no way I can support ethnic cleaning. period.

    Bangladesh is a different matter. You will be well aware that more banglasdeshi muslims than bangladeshi hindus have left bangladesh for india in the last few decades. The reason has everything to do with economics than with religion as bangladeshis coming to India stand a better chance of earning their livelihood.

    Regarding the comparison between Modi and Aurangzeb, I agree the two cannot be compared. Auragzed was an emperor, and in those times emperors could do pretty much of whatever they wanted without bothering about electorates, public opinion & bad press. To make the comparison fair, you would have to imagine Modi being an emperor during those times!

    Regarding my statement of 800 years of muslim rule in India – I certainly did not make the statement from arrogance but from what I believe is true. 800 years is an extremely extremely long period and certainly enough to convert an entire population, especially by an emperor who is absolutely powerful.

    I have read “real” history and certainly not from a madarsa and I feel I can form my own opinions and not those blinkered by any religious ideology.

    Non madarsa Indian history taught me that the original inhabitants of india, the dravidians were pushed south by the aryan invaders from the north who bought their own religions and customs. So do the dravidians have a greater right on India than others? This has been the history of the human race. Races have fought, killed, married & lived with each other and there is no way we can erase history and no way we can be collectively responsible for what was done by our ancestors. We should look towards the future and i will never inculcate any negative ideology of hatred or difference to my children because hatred is an extremely strong emotion and ultimately harms the person who hates, the most!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Please look at the statistics from 1947 to current times.
    Do not look selectively only between 1988-1998.

    It is a well know fact that millions of Hindus were targeted by Pakistan’s army in Bangladesh in 1971.

    Regarding more bangladeshi muslim’s leaving, then how come Hindu population is coming down as a percentage ?
    (I guess madrassah math at play from you..)

    They did not have 800years of rule by muslims.
    Please go back and read the history.
    Some parts had it, and they depended on Jizya from Hindus
    They were just like mafia collecting protection money, as Muslims were not farmers, tradespeople … so they just were invaders or lazy bums using religion to extract other peoples work and wealth..

    so they had monetary incentive not to convert all Hindus.
    Only slowly they were doing it.
    Anyway read about Rajputs, Shivaji,..Sikhs, Hindu rulers who bravely fought and were winning back the country from Muslims…

    So your 800 yrs is not correct to start with.
    Even assuming you are right, does not show that for a huge country (25% of world population, 800yrs is more than enough)..
    again leave your ignorance and arrogance and your madrassah education.

    Aryan/Dravidian is a recent theory invented by British historians to divide indians.
    there is no conclusive or absolute proof about it yet..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Aurangzeb’s power is not just purely based on being an emperor.

    He was following Koran’s word and got all the “true muslims” who agree with some outdated 7th century book.

    Partly he derived his power from being a true muslim.

    I have to applaud your doublespeak and writing skills to mask the true issues and confuse the reader.
    Jizya is derived from arab’s imperial religion.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    Mr. Sam,

    I looked at the stats from 1988-1998 as only these were available on the net. I would be more than happy if you could give me the stats for the other periods.

    The Pakistani Army was pretty secular in its targeting of Bangladeshis. They bumped off Bangladeshi muslims in equally large number which was one of the factors which led to Bangladesh declaring & getting independence. The main reason why the hindu population percentage declined in 1971 was because the hindus targeted by the Pakistani army found ready refuge in India. This was not an option for Bangladeshi muslims!. I wonder if this is the madarsa maths you mentioned.

    Reg. conversions – you have got me a bit confused. Sometimes you say that that the mughals tried their best to convert and sometimes you say they had monetary incentive not to convert.
    If you are interested in the issue, just get hold of William Dalrymple’s very well researched book – The last Mughal. It speaks elegies about hindu-muslim peaceful co-existence and incidentally mentions that Delhi in the 1850s had a 50:50 hindu-muslim population. Now I can accept that the rajputs, Sikhs et al would not allow muslims expansion in the territories controlled by them but how do you explain Delhi’s hindu population. I do not have to point out that Delhi was the very seat of the mughal empire for 800 years!. — Madarsa logic again.

    Reg Aryan-Dravidian, you have to just go south of the vindhyas to know that the people are physically different from those in the north. Its very difficult to get conclusive proof, such as eye witnesses, of something that happened thousands of years ago.
    If you say that Aurangzeb was a true muslim, then do you imply that all the other scores of earlier rulers were not true muslims. Now that is choppy water – Muslims themselves have not been able to decide who is a true or an untrue muslim.

    Sam Reply:

    Madrasa logic:

    So you are saying that Bangladeshi muslims did not find ready refuge!!.
    So there was someone on the border checking their religious identitiy and deciding who should find ready refuge..or who should not.
    or the hindus stayed back ? (actually muslims stayed back in assam and creating more demographic problems)..

    No wonder muslims in india are so brainwashed (i guess local mullah tells this stuff).

    emperor in delhi did not control the whole country for 800 years..dont you get it ?

    yes they are not as powerful, because the violent invading crooks had monetary and other incentives to go slow (after the initial phase).. this does not mean peaceful co-existence…there was every effort made to steal Hindu’s wealth, by attacking and destroying their temples..

    about delhi’s population, please provide statistics for hundreds of years.
    you are selectively quoting for 1850 only.

    On one hand you do not have statistics for Pakistan from 1947-1988 and on the other hand you have statistics for Delhi in 1850.

    i think you are brainwashed into believing aryan-dravidian invasion without any basis.
    People can be different (which fundamentally is not true), but that doesnt mean there was a violent invasion and physical forced migration or one group vs others.

    go to northeast, people are different.
    so there could have been a aryan-mongoloid race theory.
    Mongoloid races were the original inhabitants who were gradually pushed out to northeast
    (well you get the point, I can also talk baselessly..)

    yes different rulers in delhi had different priorities.
    some wanted to kill all hindus, some wanted to marry woman and convert them, some wanted jiziya..
    (they all wanted all these, but obviously different priorities)

    they take mohd as their model, who sleeps with Safiyah after killing her husband and father on the same day.

    He does not even follow the rules he lays down for widow remarriage.

    Sam Reply:

    Wow

    Pakistan army is pretty secular !!

    and only Bangladeshi Hindu’s found ready refuge, as per you.

    There are several sources, which show that while Muslims in Bangladesh were killed, they deliberately targeted Hindus more than Muslims for rape and murder and looting.

    Ahmed Reply:

    Jaziya is a tax paid by the Unbeleivers to the Islamic State as Zakat is paid by Muslims and involves the concept of worship to Allah in which the Non Muslims dont beleive in – Tht is why Jaziya

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Contd.. .. .. “observed,

    Sam Reply:

    Ahmad,
    read up on Jizya and zakat.

    Zakat is only for charity to be spent on Muslims.

    Jizya is from Hindus & Sikhs (or non-muslims) for the Muslim king’s expenses.

    Please do not try to whitewash and confuse people.

    Hindus were made poorer by collection of Jizya, as this is no different from British imperialism or mafia charging protection money.

    Let us throw away Arab imperialism and tribalism.

    Sam Reply:

    Ahmad,
    If you think Jiziya and Zakat are good,

    let us do the reverse now.

    Should a new tax be imposed on Muslims (for not serving in the army) and a Zakat like tax be imposed on them ?

    If Koran was a good thing for muslims, let us follow the same thing for other religions also.

    syed Reply:

    Mr Sam,

    Reg BAngladesh: More hindus than muslims stayed back which is a fact known to all. Its only later that muslims have started infiltrating from Bangladesh into Assam in significant numbers resulting in demographic tensions. So what is stopping the govt. from deporting the Bangladeshis back to where they came from? The USA has got a specialised customs and border protection agency which is also tasked with preventing illegal economic migrants from mexico into the USA & they are v v effective. What is stopping India from having a similar agency to protect against Bangladeshi migrants? Is there ANY sort of resistance whatsoever from Indian muslims against this move? Is it the fault of Indian muslims that Bangladeshis are coming in. Please don’t use this issue as another stick to beat Indian muslims.

    Reg delhis population & stats: Well I think is you who made the claim about ethnic cleaning in India. So the onus is on you to back it up with stats. So instead of me, I think you should provide demographic statistics for hundreds of years of all the districts of india for the period of muslim rule.

    Reg Aryan Dravidian theories: I do not have any special affinity for aryan dravidian theories. I just wanted to show the larger picture of human migration & displacement through the ages which is a fact throughout the world. However the Aryan Dravidian theory is taught in schools as the standard NCERT syllabus. NCERT books as you know are thoroughly researched by an eminent panel of non madarsa educated historians. So unless you know something more than they do, I think we should close this issue.

    Just for the record i do not take mohammad as my role model. At the end of the day he was a human being and not a God and therefore not perfect.

    Maybe you did not understand by what i meant when i said that the pakistan army was secular. What i meant was that the pakistan army targeted BOTH both hindus and muslims. That’s reverse secularism for you.

    Sam Reply:

    On one hand you claim that Bangladeshi Hindus found ready refuge (without even agreeing or accepting that all refugees from Bangladesh were taken in).
    Now you have to prove that either Muslims were turned back or asked to leave more than Hindus.
    You did not prove anything on that front.
    Just look at all the Muslim countries and see the hate they have for other religious people and they declare their countries “Islamic ….this , islamic that…”.
    They create a very inhospitable place, by religiously approve discrimination (based on Koran).

    See what happened in Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Bangladesh, ….
    The common thread is, Koran sanctions DHIMMITUDE for non-muslims.
    It is directly sourced from Koran.

    Muslim are afraid to even discuss or agree to it, as they are afraid of apostasy and blasphemy.

    Even when they remotely agree, they are very careful to couch in such a way, that there is no clear statement, other than to possibly fool the person it is intended.

    It is well known, that while muslims are killed, they focused their fire and hatred more towards hindus. How can they be secular, when they hate their fellow humans and kill them in millions ?

    Maybe that is your version of secularism, killing millions.

    syed Reply:

    Mr Sam,

    I find it extremely to discuss things with you as you keep on jumping to issues which are not all linked to the discussion on hand, raising general issues which cannot have specific replies and ignoring the ongoing issues. If you see way I reply, I mention the points you have raised earlier and reply to them specifically. I have no problem discussing any other issue with you but please reply to the ongoing ones before you decide to move on to others.

    So its my request to you to answer the issues we have been discussing in an organised and specific manner before you raise new ones.

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,

    If you cannot see a link in all these issues, please go read your Koran and Arab History gain.

    People like you are capable of connecting all these dots, but looks like refuse to do it.
    (surprise, surprise !!! why you do not want to do it..)

    The core of Koran is an imperialistic and apartheid idealogy.

    1. Dhimmitude: all other religious people should either convert or accept islam is superior
    — by converting or by paying Jizya
    2. Muslim man can have multiple wifes, as per their God
    This is basically helping the blood thirsty people to go butcher their neighbors and takes their wifes and daughters.

    3. Apostasy.
    4. Protection money
    5. Apartheid :
    In mecca and medinah jewish people were there for hundreds of years before Mohd showed up.
    Now they cannot even enter that city (of course not even Saudi Arabia)

    All these are inter related, to ethnic cleansing in Pakistan, Kashmir,..Iraq..

    There is a common thread and Indian muslims are just one participant in this ongoing tragedy.

    Not just that, almost all muslims are either arrogant (that only they possess God’s final word) or ignorant of other traditions.
    They are brainwashed, that they are 1 billion plus and growing fastest (when I mentioned in an earlier blog, that if chinese had 10 kids/woman they would have been much more fastest growing)..

    When arabs are poor they attacked india and looted its wealth.
    (the best thing is, their religion gave license to loot and kill, so their conscience can be clear)

    Go read about Hindus sold as slaves in Baghdad and other central asian cities.
    (yaa your NCERT text books do not tell that, so i can understand if you do not know it).

    Read Chachnama (i could only read parts of it, as it was so violent) written by your muslim historians..

    Read chronicles written by muslim historians themselves about the cruelty they committed.
    They are worst than gas chambers of germans (atleast the germans thought of killing painlessly and were considerate enough)..

    I am open to further conversations with you.

    But Honestly, you are way off the real history and there is a vast gulf of your understanding and the actual history.

    Until then, please keep thinking that Pakistan Army is secular, there is no ethnic cleansing in Pakistan, everyone was having a jolly good life under Mughals, muslims had all the power to kill every hindu if they wanted. …only Bangladeshi hindus were welcomed in India, …

  • SKS Mumbai

    Dear Zia,
    I do agree that to live together and in harmony is really easy, if genuine efforts are made by all. The once in a blue-moon stories of how Hindus-Muslims came together to celebrate a festival and the types, will help a great deal if they can be replicated everywhere and no matter what rabid hindus or mullahs do, rebuilding the walls of hatred where such events occur, will be extremely difficult although not impossible.

    But we would be fooling ourselves, it we don’t realize that it would take a lot more than just joint celebrations , if we intend to achieve the objectives, we have set for ourselves. Political correctness aside some questions do need more than just more dialogue and more interaction.

    An important one is Kashmir and we must realize that it does not matter who is held responsible for the original partition but the fact that partition did happen and it happened in the name of religion. Now Kashmir, whether we acknowledge it or not, the future of India’s only Muslim-majority state is the ultimate test for India’s secular nationalist project. Whether our inchoate faith in principles of secularism, be strengthened or shattered will, depend on what happens in Kashmir. Our secular establishment can continue with their ‘belief’ that Kashmir is an ethno-nationalist problem rather than a religious one, but that is not how Indians see it.

    Yes we have many other separatist movements with roots in ethnic/linguistic/religious identities, but they are different. Why? Firstly, we don’t have a history here and secondly, Indian state has by and large succeeded in addressing at least one religious and one linguistic separatist movement. Notwithstanding the fervent hopes of our liberal and secular protagonists that the peace in Punjab is just a ‘silence of graveyards’ rather than a satisfactory resolution, most of us do see it as a validation of our multi-religious, multi ethnic nation state construct and of the fact that grass-root support for Khalistan was limited.

    Similarly, for north-east, a number of separatist movements are active, but over the years, some of these have been successfully addressed (some of them were seeking their solutions within the ambit of Indian constitution, anyway), using our constitutional tools. This and the fact, that N-E states, unfortunately, are yet to figure as prominently in our mainstream discourse as say Kashmir, allows Indians to respond differently.

    Of course emergence of newer movements driven primarily by religious identity as also the ones developing in response to demographic changes induced by illegal immigration from our neighboring country, and how they play out in future will again have a significant impact on what happens in rest of India.

    Not too relevant here but the secular arguments that(1) illegal immigration from BD is in our long terms interest (as with Open Border policies), and (2) these be treated as a de facto vote against the two-nation theory and hence a vote for India, are a few more in the long list of platitudes, which ignore the problem.

    At the end of the day, we may ignore or brush aside all of this, either by denying or by offering some more platitudes on the need for harmony or the preeminence of values like “right to self determination”, but not recognizing the consequences of Kashmir going Pakistan way (or even independence, on our ideological foundations would be a luxury we will be forced to regret

    About Cricket Team and Aishwarya Rai :
    No surprise, it has been some sort of SOP here to sneak in small comments about so called “myths and misunderstandings” in the larger scheme of things and to never respond, when questioned specifically. But unless you are among those who question the validity of nation-state construct, you may like to consider that ‘Aishwarya Rai’ does not act under ‘National Flag’ and being her fan does not mean rejoicing over inferiority/loss of a Pakistani actresses, which is indeed the case, when one celebrates defeat of his country’s team. Aishwarya Rai is not the only Indian Actress but we have only one cricket team

    And if some jokers come back and inform us that BCCI is a private club and does not represent India as such, tell them Yeah… Right… ..

    By the way, what is your point here? Are you saying that this does not happen? Or that there is nothing wrong , even if it does happen?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    I don’t understand why Kashmir should be an issue affecting how Hindus and Muslims treat each other? It is an issue between Pakistan and India, but how can it effect the relations between Indian citizens of different faith?

    “Kashmir, whether we acknowledge it or not, the future of India’s only Muslim-majority state is the ultimate test for India’s secular nationalist project…”

    I don’t think thats true at all. The ultimate test of “India’s secular nationalist project” is how much “Indian” people of different religious backgrounds feel…and thats related to how much sense of participation and ownership they feel over the country. For instance tackling the horrific statistics recorded by the Sachar commission report and correcting the gross under-representation of muslims in various sectors of the economy, academia, and other power structures like politics as well as the police and army.

    We may disagree with the reasons for such unde-representation, but surely we both agree that giving a sense of participation to people of various ethnic and religius background is important for the “idea of india” to be successful.

    “Not too relevant here but the secular arguments that…”

    Actually I have never heard anyone making such “secular arguments”….

    “But unless you are among those who question the validity of nation-state construct, you may like to consider that ‘Aishwarya Rai’ does not act under ‘National Flag’….”

    You see to be among those who think that India is a banana republic, where losing a cricket match is such a big issue of “national prestige”.

    I surely don’t think that India is such a banana republic, therefore I for one would not ever think that a “mere” game can lead to loss of “national prestige”.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    You are the Truth. I sibmit

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    Mahatma did act like hypocrites time and again.. For instance when Khilfata movement frittered away and muslims of MOPLA in Kerala decided to have blood frenzy with hindu blood killing 2 lakh.. all Gandhi could muster is Muslism were defending their religion in the best way they know..

    HE also chimed if tomorrow muslim brothers from afghanistan attack Idia and then hindu should nto protest..

    he was in the compnay fo Khilafat leaders the same Khilafat leaders had no remorse in claiming even the worst of Muslim is betetr than gandhi..

    This mahatma tried his level best to appease Muslims nonsesne but at one stage after myriad round of bllod frenzy in Godhara ( yes Godhara is old sore) he lost his tamper and exclaimed..

    Hindus are coawards and Muslims are bullies.. totally forgetitng the fact that he had been askign hindus to become cowards all the while and entertaing nonsense of muslism with all kind fo alibis..

    Now talking of Jinnah that character was blood thirsty animal.. anyone who causes riots of kind of Kolkata through direct actiona plan has to be one.. today we pillory people for riots where thousand gets killed but somehow 100’s of thousands killers is feted as great man..

    Shame on these hypocrites and revionsit historians.. it smakc fo Pakaj Vohra type hypocrite mind who thinks Delhi 1984 was oke since Rajeev gandhi was mourning but Gujk 2002 is nto oke

    [Reply]

  • sts

    I came across this article on August 30th and was pretty impressed by the views of Mr. Haq. But I must admit that I am disappointed with most of the replies on this blog. So much so, that mid way through reading the replies, I had to go back and read the article again. The authors point is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is about “compromise” [We have forgotten a magic word: compromise]. Please lets not forget that.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Please tell the readers where should the compromise be ?

    1. Polygamy is a compromise for muslims
    2. Parts of sharia law are a compromise against human decency
    3. Watching all the atrocities committed against Hindus in Pakistan and not protesting is a compromise.
    4. Not protesting Islamic countries (with regard to Blasphemy laws) is a compromise
    5. Not protesting Jiziya imposed on Sikhs/Hindus of Pakistan is a compromise.

    In return what did Muslims offer for Hindus ?
    Did they repair the Somnath temple ?
    Did they fix any of their past mistakes ?
    Did they condemn Aurangazeb’s Jiziya collection ?

    I think the only compromise they want is loot all the wealth and convert every Kaffir.
    Until then, they will offer nothing good, other than complains.

    [Reply]

    sts Reply:

    The compromise should be with people who don’t believe in any of the things that you have listed and just want a peaceful life.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I stated so many facts (not beliefs) and please tell us where the compromise line should be drawn ?

    Most muslims, want everything as per their 7th century religious books.

    In return they have nothing to offer, other than violence and dhimmitude, Jiziya, Sharia’s blasphemy laws, propagate their version of pedophiles (like 80yr old marrying 10yr old) and…..

    I will be glad, if they can do anything to help the world (not bomb, terrorize and destroy) like inventing things which make poor peoples life’s easy.

    Sam Reply:

    peace can come in different ways.

    I do not want to see peace, where you become a slave to an stupid and extreme and outdated idealogy masquerading as religion and wants to enslave everyone else.

    that is not my version of peace.
    some people will rather die, than accept such peace.

  • Pankaj

    only choice in future will be – Civil war. … take it or leave it.

    That is where we are heading to.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    what do you call all the events since 1947 ?

    Millions of Hindus/Sikhs killed in 1947, millions killed in Bangladesh in 1971, multiple terrorist acts and ethnic cleansing in Kashmir …..

    This is a civil war already declared by Muslim Ghazi’s.

    Only foolish hindus dont know that it already started.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Dear Anil

    What are you really talking about? Moplah? Horror of Horror. Hindutva bigots have twisted all history to further their “hateful” ideology.

    FYI, Mopala incident part of the heroic struggle, launched by Muslims, against the british rule, which could not succeed because of the vile hindu bramhins (or. Variants) who supported British. The hindus killed were in fact the rich landlords who had been torturing the local hindu dalits (incl. variants) for ages and Muslims were actually fighting for the poor Hindu dalits as also for punishing the vile bramhins who supported British.

    What forced conversions? Wrong, it were the poor Hindu dalits who decided to embrace Islam to overcome centuries of oppression and insisted that temples be demolished as a retribution.

    The rabid Hindutva historians have been trying (not successfully though) to paint, one of the golden page in our struggle for independence with communal colors.

    Can I get a secular certificate now at least?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS,
    Past bedtime for the certification authorities and historians tonight. I shall watch your beatification with considerable interests tomorrow :-)

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Thanx for your kind comments. I was not able to reply earlier bcoz of time constraints. You have an easy and effortless style of writing. It’s a real relief reading your post because as you would have seen, even thinking of replying to some other people is like getting tangled up with a buzz saw.

    You are right in that politics in india is a hostage to identities. Further politicians here are willing to bend even at windmills so its difficult to expect some sort of revolutionary step from them such as expect. I agree with you that politicians in India have not pandered to the far right and rightly so, otherwise you would have a recipe for disaster much like what has happened in Pakistan. The objective of the blog basicqally seems to be to present muslim issues and history in a positive light. However the posts basically degenerate into a free for all with no link whatsoever to the original blog.

    One thing you should understand about the muslim psyche – while most educated muslims might agree with issues such as banning polygamy, common civil law etc. there is no way they would be willing so speak out their minds as they are all scared of eternal damnation!

    It is a fact that india is secular not because of the muslims but because the hindus want it. Despite of all that’s written, my understanding of mughal rule is that it was secular(exception of Aurangzeb). Islam then was a tolerant faith with heavy stains of Sufism (Sufism is incidentally again an Indian version of Islam). This strain of islam has then came under threat from Saudi Arabian wahibism backed up with their oil funds but that’s another story.

    And try to remain liberal. Everyone including you will be the better for it.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    I grew up reading the same NCERT text books on history. But, then I read some more ;-)

    The Muslim rule (not just that of the Mughals) and certainly not just that of Aurangzeb was not as benign as all that. There was cruelty and religious persecution of a scale quite unimaginable. The level of cruelty varied and the persecution of Hindus and Buddhists (don’t forget them!) were actually quite widespread and state-sponsored. This has been documented on the basis of actual written records left behind by the chroniclers of those ages, who all were Muslims. When faced with the facts, the rejoinder of Md Habib (Irfan Habib’s son) was that those chroniclers were exaggerating the extent of the bloodshed to please their kings. Funny, isn’t it? That, the king would be pleased to be told that there were more killings than there actually was?

    But, that’s so far back in time and frankly I think you address it better (in one of your earlier posts) by simply alluding to the turbulent history of most races and people, full of bloodshed, but also intermingling, marriages, and growing of composite cultures. Shades of James Mitchener there. But, here’s where the distinction lies with India and other countries(and, yes, this is my own postulation): Hindus and Muslims have always had a semi-permeable membrane separating them.. Muslim man married Hindu woman –> Muslim couple; Hindu man marries Muslim woman –> Muslim couple.. the fault lies as much with Hindus, because it is not a proselytizing religion and except for the thread ceremony of the brahmins, there is no initiation into Hinduism per se (no Bar Mitzvah or Baptism or …). You were either born a Hindu or not.
    Again, this is really a side issue, at least to me. A side issue, because even if I can prove that Muslim Kings practiced atrocities in the name of religion, what can we do about it today? My point is, we should not sanitize our history books so much as to remove all references to violence, terrible conduct and so on. The thing to do is to deal with it, express disapproval and move on.
    The path to healing is not through denial but, through acceptance and correction. If Germany can be a respectable member of EU and be a friend of Israel after starting two world-wars and gassing six million Jews, there is no reason why Muslims can’t reclaim respect in the community and in the world. But, the effort has to come from within. By not speaking out, the moderates are letting the extremists run away with the show in your community. To the point I made in my previous post, Hindus will help, but first, the Muslims have to be seen as trying. And, your and the blog-author’s energies will be better served by preaching to your own congregration.
    I think it is Sun Tzu who says that being extremely well prepared before a battle makes you win it without a shot being fired. The contemporary Muslim history, from Palestine to India is a case of rushing into battle without adequate preparation.

    Rajeev Reply:

    SKS,
    You can get secular certificates from-
    1. Sonia mata
    2. Rahul baba
    3. Entire UPA cabinet
    4. Vir singhvi
    5. Sujata Anandan
    6. Pankaj Vora
    7. NDTV
    8. CNN-IBN
    and many others..

    You just need to lick muslim arse to get you tongue stamped.

    [Reply]

    Anil Reply:

    nitish Kumar silenced mumbling Manmohan singh when he said PM shoudl sto acting liek vice-chancelor of some secualrism university

  • SKS Mumbai

    Dear Sam,

    I can’t say about the rest, but Jizya is certainly something, we should be looking forward to, going by what the “religious, political and community leaders of the Indian Muslims” say abou it: see below:

    “We would like to say that Jizya is a tax paid in an Islamic state for exemption from military service by healthy non-Muslim adults who are free to follow their vocations without restriction or fear, and that there is no other tax payable by them after paying this tax, unlike Muslims who have to pay various taxes including Zakat and have to perform military service as well.”

    What say guys, I am willing to sign a “deed of allegiance’ today, of course on the above terms and subject to “change in law” protection

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    This is such a double talk by muslims to fool others.

    Jizya is levied only on other religious people.
    Other religious people are NOT allowed to join military, as only muslims can join military.

    So if some non-muslim wants to join military, will they exempt from Jizya ?

    Also Zakat is only to be spent for Muslims.
    Again doublespeak.

    Basically Jizya is nothing but protection money Mafia charges.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Sorry, last comment was incomplete

    1. The use and importance of Jizya was smarter than we think. As we know any job involving maximisation or minimisation is always subject to constraints. “Smart” managers find ways which allow them to pursue their objectives while operating within the constraints. have a look:

    “…. Greatest nobles of his Court represented to him that a large sum was realized and paid into the public treasury, and that if it were abolished, a great reduction in the income of the State would take place. The Emperor observed,

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    This is how muslims in Malaysia protest against shifting a temple to a new location.

    Stomping and spitting on a dead cows head and parading it on the streets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MbjWW8Wffg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fekawaaz.org%2F2009%2F08%2F29%2Ftaliban-making-malaysia-video%2F&feature=player_embedded

    If Hindus in India do not protest this violent behavior, muslims in india will get inspired will mimic soon and do the same in indian cities.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Contd.. .. .. “observed,

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    What is going on? Zia, Some limits on message size?

    [Reply]

    shafat Reply:

    what’s wrong HT. Hindu bigots comments against Islam are allowed and when ipoint out towards the filty paganism (now called hinduism), you are quick enough to moderate it. No more comments, ur as good as ur TOI compatriots.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Zia, this is unfair. We demand that Shafat has his say.

    @Shafat, good luck.

    Let me quote, from (where else?) Tagore’s Chaturanga: the context is a Pundit who tries very hard to prove the non-existence of God and indeed in Tagore’s words, “fires cannon-shells at the edifice of Hinduism” through his learned shlokas. What happens?
    Again, in Tagore’s words, ” Hindu-dharma smiles and says, ‘Gola khaa daala’”

    Again, good luck. Hinduism is less brittle than you (or Zia??) give it credit for.

    syed Reply:

    Mr Ashish

    I cannot even fully decide which side to take on in this blog – being a shia muslim with a sister married to a hindu, and brother in the army. We shias get the worst of both worlds- we are lumped as (fanatic?) muslims by hindus and not considered full muslims most sunnis.
    This is the first time I have come on this blog but I see so much hatred here, as if history has telescoped and everything had happened yesterday!
    There are two issues here which I would like to point out – one is about sanitizing history books. We cannot be compared to countries like germany where religion is extremely peripheral, people are more disciplined and no politics is involved. Here there is serious risk of young minds developing hatred towards the other if the issue is not dealt with extreme sensitively both in textbooks AND by the respective school teachers. And seeing the quality of teachers in government schools where most children study, there is serious risk of a negative impact.
    Pakistan fell into this trap through peddling a jihadi version of history. We have taken the exact opposite path with better(?) results.

    As regards speaking out, that is something I have always done. But one has to face facts. There is only so much one can do because after a certain age as attitudes and views normally do not change. However one can definitely influence their own children and make them true citizens of the world!

    Sam Reply:

    The materials can be introduced as additional material, without even attempting to change the text books.
    As much as I dont like text books (as their primary philosophy is “ignorance is bliss”, let us portray Hindu-Chini Bhai-Bhai and ostrich like mentality), we can put modifications to them aside.

    Atleast children need to learn from true history of Muslim Chroniclcers themselves, read Aurangazeb’s official orders… and then decide how was it for Hindus under his rule..

    The other strategy is treat everyone, as children who cannot handle the real truth or some how real truth will inflame passions.

    What pakistan is doing is trying to inculcate that Islam is superior (which is fine if they tell only in Moques) and Hindus and Sikhs are inferior and bad people.

    I read many texts and frankly appalled at them. This should not be done in schools.
    They tell kids to be ready for Jihad ….

    India the approach is opposite, try to hide every little thing in garb of religious harmony.
    In my opinion this is even worse, as Hindu kids are not learning any lessons from history for their own protection.

    They never seem to learn.

    If people like you can make statements “800 yrs are enough to finish off every Hindu, Pakistan army is secular, hindus had good life under Moghuls….” I am afraid what else the rest of Muslims are thinking…

    Sam Reply:

    Maybe Shia’s should get their own country, as they are culturally so different from Sunni’s.

    If Jinnah had forethought about the current infighting and killings of Shias in Pakistan, he probably would have asked for a separate “Shiastan”

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    I understand your personal situation :-) I have a fairly “mixed up” family as well. And, I have had Shia and Sunni colleagues at office, who were,ahem, very distant!
    But, honestly there need not even be two sides. So long as a debate is not reduced to a need to score points.
    I agree with your point about “history being telescoped…” which is precisely what I meant by saying atrocities committed in the name of religion in Mughal era is not actionable. But, yes, you certainly got me thinking about the “delivery” part of the syllabus rather than the content side which was my focus. And, for the moment I agree. Forget government schools; I do not think teachers in even so called public schools in Delhi will accord a lot of sensitivity to the subject.
    My only concern is, that censorship of any kind ultimately can be counterproductive. When you airbrush selective bits of history out of your school textbooks, the danger is, as these kids grow up and get to know the “X-rated” version, they tend to repudiate the whole body of scholarly work, as load of rubbish. So, Irfan Habib, Bipan Chandra, Sumit Sarkar, Romilla Thapar.. towering intellects all, whose contributions to historiography will be hard to match.. end up looking discredited (all because perhaps of their desire to protect immature minds; I am being charitable here :-) ). Which is unfortunate. After all, without Irfan Habib, our knowledge of the Moghul era, its administrative systems, the way the people lived etc, would be much poorer.
    All I want to however tell you is this: My 12 year old daughter learns history from me (among other subjects) and it has so far not stopped her from having 3 extremely close Muslim friends, in school and outside. I treat history lessons at this age as a “birds and bees” conversation, need to know and understand and stay away from primordial instincts.
    Just as you do not want your children to get sex lessons from p*rn-sites, it is perhaps important for us, to take the lead in teaching the right history but also to put that in context. After all, I tell my daughter, how likely is it that Heba is going to slit her throat; a scenario that tickles her no end.

    Sam Reply:

    “saying atrocities committed in the name of religion in Mughal era is not actionable”

    saying that something done in the past is wrong only enhances the person.
    It does not degrade them or make them responsible.

    But to keep denying history, will only hurt their future.

    Recently Vatican issued a statement, that what they did to Galileo was wrong.
    This is after 400 yrs.
    It is never too late..

    They also issued an apology for not doing enough to protect Jews during WW 2.

    But Muslims cannot do that, as if they Aurangazeb was wrong with Jizya it could lead to a major infigthing among themselves.
    The purists would even issue a fatwa for their heads, as it is tantamount to denying the whole wisdom in Koran.

    Luckily atleast in Europe and western world they went through this phenomenon during and after reformation.
    They freedom to criticize any ideas should be there.

    Islam cannot take criticism and it most of the problems are caused due to this nature.

    So in some way it is very important to telescope past things, as contemporary issues are much political and mine fields.
    If they cannot even accept some wrong things (done long time back), they are not capable of looking inward or ready for discussion.

    Islam tells what a govt should do, what laws should be passed…
    It is not just spiritual component of a religion.

    So people should have freedom to criticize those aspects which relate to public issues.

    Bobby Reply:

    “So, Irfan Habib, Bipan Chandra, Sumit Sarkar, Romilla Thapar.. towering intellects all, whose contributions to historiography will be hard to match.. end up looking discredited…”

    sure when seen from the eyes of people who follow the Arun Shourie school of history telling, I guess they would look discredited, just like from the eyes of a Baba Ramdev, homosexuality is a “disease” that can be “cured” by “Yoga”.

    “My 12 year old daughter learns history from me (among other subjects) and it has so far not stopped her from having 3 extremely close Muslim friends, in school and outside”

    Really!!…..even after telling her all the horrific statistics of the evil muslims, but thats not surprising… after all you belong to the super tolerant hindu religion.

    “……..I tell my daughter, how likely is it that Heba is going to slit her throat”

    wow! such a sweet way to make the point….. you are doing heck of a job Ashish….God bless you.

    Akhilesh Reply:

    Zia,
    The trick used by you is the standard operating procedure (SOP) that most secularists employ when writing something on Muslim – Hindu realtionships. It basically goes on something like this :

    Put in a reasoned defense of Muslim communalism by pointing out to all that is wrong with Hindu majority and government apathy. However, to seem balanced, throw in some stats about Muslim bigotry too, but take care to couch it in such a way that it is not visible even with a toothcomb. The fine print of the article obvious to all.

    And then let the fun and games begin. If anyone seriously questions your arguments and premises, then you ignore that comment. In the meanwhile, there will be a delude of comments from other reades, arguing on things all and sundry – a melee would ensue in which nothing would look rationale except your original blog. ( Sometimes I wonder if part of the melee is orchestrated).

    And hurray ! You can go and proclaim in your next blog, that all your previous premises have remianed uncontested and thus truth. And basis this edifice of questionable truths, you go on building further arguments. The basic jist of which will always remain the same – there is nothing to be reformed in Mulsim community – no ocassion at all for inward looking – that all the problems between Muslims and others is because of the atrocities and discrimination that Muslims face – that others must reform – that Modi is the genesis of communalism in India – that the only solution is to dethrone Modi and puit him in jail – and so on.

    I am dissappointed that you are also in this league of secular writers. A fellow columnist on HT (Sujata Anandan) tried to club you with her – in a blog on her page – in a group secular writers who recive Hindu bigots’ hate replies.

    But even she takes care to replies to most of the comments on her page.

    Pity that you do not reply to even one. Because if do, it will enhance your reputation. But if you don’t, it entrenches the reputation as you being just a motivated and compromised blogger just pretending to be secular. ( in the league of Pankaj Vohra, although I hope that you never fall to that level)

    Regards,

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shafat,
    Do you know mathematics?
    Here is simple equation for you-

    Islam = Paganism – sprituality + sex fantasies + fanatcism + violence – brains + grabage called Quran + worship of false prophet Mohammad.

    syed Reply:

    @sam,

    regarding getting a separate country for shias – Not required at all, thank you very much. Its much better staying in a multireligious, multicultural environment & the rich experiences me and my family has got, interacting with so many different people just cannot be compared with the deary dullness of meeting just one shade of people.

    Ashish Reply:

    Many years back, I read Syed Naqvi where he related an experience one of his relatives had visiting friends and relatives in Pakistan.
    When they came back, they were asked, “How was it, was it fun? Did you like it there?”.
    Pat came the response, “Not at all. Too many Muslims there!”

    Sam Reply:

    It is already there…

    Some Shias from India/Pakistan migrated to Iran and more of it could happen if they continued to be killed in Pakistan…

    Ashish Reply:

    @Zia, Drat! You did it again. This is definitely not a technical problem.. why did you delete Shafat’s post? Heck, it was not even mildly insulting.
    Most of the Hindu bigots posting on this blog can easily outdo him (I certainly can) in posting scandalous stuff about the Hindu Gods and Goddesses… grow up man!
    @Shafat, after the month of Ramzan is over, perhaps we should meet for a beer (or something stronger :-) ).. I can provide more grist to your mill.. we will ONLY talk about the peccadilloes of the Hindu Gods and Goddesses, I promise! The Muslim side, I am sure you do not need any education on!

    Sam Reply:

    The difference is Hindus are not asking for rights to mimic their religious books.

    But muslims want to mimic their prophet and want sharia law, according to which they can have an religious apartheid and can marry 4 woman.
    They think the world owes it to them, to provide it for them.
    If not they lhave a right to take it.

    As far as I know, there is no concept of blasphemy against Hindu religion, as it allows for discussion and criticism.

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    In what capacity do you know Irfan habib & do you know another historian – Shireen Moosvi

    Amit Reply:

    I am glad to see that the secular space in our country is alive and kicking, even if in a perverse way. We may not learn to respect each other’s faith, but I am delighted that we have mastered the art of abusing each other. Go on guys! Do yourself proud. Zia, please allow people to have a free for all at each other. I guess it’s better than burning someone or slitting open their pregnant bellies. Thanks god for small mercies.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed We were taught history from his texts in college; both the Profs were from the Marxist school of history as well! I have developed a lot of respect for not only his scholarship but also his prose. I must clarify that I studied history as part of a much wider syllabus and I have kept up with history since my college days as a matter of interest. I have never met him or “known” him. Nor have I known or met Sumit Sarkar, Romilla Thapar and the like. Only read some of their works.
    No I have not read Shireen Moosvi; I know she teaches in AMU but that’s about it.

    @Bobby, is there anything that you do not know?

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Syed, Just looked up Shireen Moosvi on the AMU website; wow! All the letters of the alphabet after her name, and some! And, a body of work that is bettered only by Habib.
    An advanced degree in statistics coupled with formidable qualifications in History; that looks awesome. “Panga nahin lene kaa :-) ” Thanks for the tip off; will check out a few of her works, when I get a little more time.

    syed Reply:

    @ashish
    shireen moosvi is a close relative of mine but i am v weak at history..

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    Compared with Shireen Moosvi, anyone will be “weak” in history.
    Do you know that EH Carr, who wrote the seminal work “What is History” and also wrote a multi-volume history of the Soviet Union did not even have a PhD in history; and, was as a matter of fact a journalist?

  • SKS Mumbai

    Brother Shafat,

    You are right.
    I was also a Hindu ‘Bigot’ (just to clarify, I’m yet to receive secular certificate), but since I started trying to become secular, many of my comments have not been posted. I wonder why?

    Although I will give benefit of doubt to Mr Zia, there seems to be some tech problem

    [Reply]

  • Rey

    @Author

    Your article is a good one and i enjoyed it at the face value and agree that your idea of compromise is definitely an agreeable one, after all who would want to fight when there was an option for a peaceful compromise right???

    (Well if that was the case then there wouldn’t be any wars would they?
    But that’s extrapolating to an unreasonable level.)

    That’s where your article fades off into a category i think of as “trying to say something concrete without using cement”.

    The article talks about compromises Muslims and Hindus should make for a peaceful coexistence but what about the compromises the Muslim community has to make with its own ideology???

    And they have to make many compromises not because the Hindus, USA or Israel want them to but because they themselves want to and because that is the only route for progress.

    Hindus and Christians have already fought hard and made those compromises, however much we hate the Christians, the Hindus did learn a lot about renaissance and the logical awakening from them and it helped them in their own move forward which went surprisingly and thankfully more peacefully than the bloodshed the Christians went through.

    Islam has to question the relevance of its certain aspects in the modern society, sadly there aren’t many who have the courage to do so and a overwhelming majority of the Muslim society is still in denial and do not think of such a change as necessary even though a glance towards other older religions suggest such a move is not only mandatory but also inevitable.

    I would like to make it clear that in no way am I trying to purposefully demean any religion and if it sounds harsh to anyone I apologise.

    All this talk about what happened in the past being of no consequence today isn’t right in my opinion, yes the Muslim of today cannot and should not be punished for what another Muslim did 800 years ago, heck a person shouldn’t even be punished for what his father had done.

    But accepting the flaws is a very essential part of learning, if the Muslim community also accepts that they did equally bad or possibly much worse things to Hindus as they did to them in the past then that eliminates any sense of oppression from both segments of society.

    History is to be learned from after all, the United Nations came to exist only after the world learned from the mistakes it made in the past.
    The Germans did unthinkable atrocities to not only the Jews but every other non-Germanic race and even physically challenged people, but they have since accepted their mistakes, paid for their wrong doings and have progressed in the world.

    The worst mistake anyone can do is to live in denial which promotes a sense of oppression.

    So unless a self examination is done by the whole Islamic society on its ideology and how they are to move forward, all this talk of a compromise with others is going to be very premature.

    Others will only start to make compromises with them if they see that the Muslims themselves are trying to make a genuine effort to move forward.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish Singh Rathore

    after reading all such post for many days i came to conclusion that this is simply waste of time to prove your point to Muslims
    you can change the thinking pattern of one or two Muslim but cant change to collective thinking .
    which only matter.
    my suggestion is that don’t waste time to change which cant be changed but instead try to awake you own community which is soon going to be part of great ISLAMIC EXPANSION.

    opinion of one or two Muslim secularist do not matter but what matter is their philosophical base their Koran ha-dish & other scripture.becuse majority drive inspiration from their.
    And see the past & present of Muslim history.

    is their any thing need to say more. to expect the Muslim to become secular is a contradictory phrase

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ashish SR
    I have seen in this blog that most hindus are scared that muslims are part of some “grand conspiracy” to eventually bring islamic rule in india. and wish for some sort of all india hindu awakening to fight th nefarious islamic designs.

    Nothing can be further from the truth. If you see the sachar report, muslims are at the bottom of the economic pyramid. Indeed most of them do not have enough time to make ends meet, forget about taking part in some grand international islamic onspiracy. There seems to be another thinking that muslims with 4 wives each are multiplying like rabbits (as islam is against family planning) and will soon outnumber hindus and will bring in islamic rule through their majority. Seems very plausible, does it not.

    However try seeing it from anothr angle..

    2) It has been observed throughout the world (with some exceptions) that the rate of growth of a population is inversely related to their economic standing. While correlation does not imply causation, it is a fact that, by virtue of being at the bottom of the economic pyramid, the population growth rate of muslims is slightly higher. (is this not enough incentive therefore to ensure upliftment of the economic lot of muslims). However islam does, and is, allowing family planning. Just check this link…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran

    2) If you really want to arrest the growth in the population of India (most importantly amongst muslims) then why does the government not have a family planning programme vith very strong financial incentives. For example the govt. can give, say Rs. 50,000 for every sterlization operation. This would be a huge huge amount and virtually irresistible for the extremely poor (which will automatically include a higher proportion of muslims). The programme would pay itself back sooner than later through the lesser population. This is just an example, the govt can have much better schemes.

    3. in an earlier post, in response to another post i had asked whats stopping the govt from limiting or stopping migration from bangladesh. are indian muslims to be blamed for this also?

    so my conclusion is – please stop wining and take some concrete action (not nebulous like increasing hatred through rewriting history books). I would really appreciate comments on this…

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    contd….

    4) complaining about muslim personal law.. If you have a problem with it then please scrap it and replace it with a common law as i have mentioned. I will be the first to support it as the pmuslim personal law board is is not an elected body amongst muslims. They have only heard about it. Dont believe me – ask any muslin to name just one member of the MPLB.

    5) Bringing in totally irrevelent issues such as about safiyah & about the post of president in pakistan. What good will such commein bringing about hindu-muslim unity?

    So to conclude, please please try to do positive things which will lead to inclusive growth & HDI improvement for ALL indians instead of getting ready for some sort of hindu-muslim yudh in the future.

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Syed,

    I am not sure point 2 alone explains the rising population, but for the time being let that pass.

    I like your suggestions in point 2, and bringing in UCC per your suggestion in point 4. I also agree that infiltration should stop per your point 3. What happens with infiltration is that most infiltrators go an settle in muslims majority areas in India and the administrators find it extremely difficult to find the infiltrations among the genuine indian muslims. Sometimes this gets abetted by the local muslims which is where lies some of the grudge. Ironically, it perhaps harms the indian muslims the most. That said, I agree with you that all muslims should not be blamed for it, while at the same time would like muslim leaders to take initiative to help identify and turn in the infiltrators.

    I beg to differ on the history part. I hold the same view as @Ashish that history is history and the facts should be researched and taught as they occurred. We should trust the maturity of the Indian populace to learn history but yet maintain the inherant secular fabric. I think it will not matter at all.

    Also, I think the govt. should target poverty alleviation schemes and development schemes and education for “ALL” poor and backward people using secular concepts such as BPL, income / year, etc. That would take care of the poor muslims and hindus and others, irrespective of their religion. It will also correct anomalies as pointed by sachar, but I do not believe that you should provide only community based welfare schemes – this will muddy the atmosphere.

    Ahmed Reply:

    The Shias do not have any moral autjority to speak on behalf of Muslim Community as they are hand in glove with the Hindu , Jew & other non believers – Thie ultimate aim is to wipe out Main Islam and for them even Hindu is better than a sunni Muslim – All Sunni know this but keep quiet in the larger interests of the community-

    Syed should give his opinion about Ayatollah Khomeini , Islamic revolution of Iran , Muta ( Marriage for a limited time period) Iran Nukes and all that

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Syed,
    A more eloquent testimony to the Shia situation which you alluded to earlier, could be hard to find; thanks to the telling comments of Ahmed. My sympathies, sir.
    Re’ your points, not in any particular order
    1. Enforce schooling; not just among Muslims, but everyone. Instill a desire to get ahead in life, show there is a reward for the hard work. But, insist on hard work.
    India is the land of opportunities; no one will stop merit coupled with hard work.
    2. Have disincentives for having more children. Yes, economic progress and better healthcare and lowering of child-mortality can bring down the “urge to procreate”.
    I do not know if you know this; just a generation ago, in Hong Kong, almost everyone had anything between 5 to 12 children. In one generation, it has come down to 0-2 children per family.
    3. Drive some uniformity in the curriculum, both in content and in delivery. We can choose to be a rainbow nation but we must realise it has a cost. We are a poor country with limited resource and we have to be prudent in apportioning resources. I know this is elitist and a predominantly urban viewpoint and any skilled Marxist social scientist can cut me to shreds. But, I sincerely think this will forge a common identity.
    4. UCC: No government has the courage to tamper with it. I have mentioned this earlier; you know what saddens me is that in Pakistan, they have a much livelier debate on Islam and its jurisprudence. The role of the Pakistani women to virtually ensure that anyone marrying a second time is socially ostracized is well documented. Is it too much to ask for similar movements to happen in India?
    5. Bangladeshi Muslims and infiltration: I agree with Indian’s argument. What used to be the CPM votebank has now become Mamata’s votebank; but votebank it has remained and grow it will. We have a virtual open border in West Bengal.
    Just as an aside, after the 26/11, there was lot of talk about forming an agency like FBI in India for counter-terrorism. It died down fast because, no political party trusts each other. The first public dissonance, I believe, came from Nitish Kumar.
    6. The other issue, which I think is quite crucial is the justice delivery mechanism. We need to deal with law and order as law and order. Our courts, police .. everyone is so overworked and groaning under backlog. Miscarriages of justice are common. Unless this is solved; unless we can speedily bring criminals to justice AND acquit innocents, we will keep breeding resentment.. (see, once a Bengali always a Commie :-) )

    I think a lot of comments on this blog stems from impatience; a lot of which I find justifiable. India needs to get a move on, face issues squarely and deal with them.

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    Reg. your comment – ndia needs to get a move on, face issues squarely and deal with them- absolutely correct. I know that most of my suggestions will not be implemented in india due to a variety of reasons. However there is no reason why suggestion (2) cannot be implemented ie. v strong incentives for family planning (disincentives might have a political fallout). There is no real roadblock stopping politicians from implementing this.
    Reg other issues its high time politicians took a stand but maybe thats is wishful thinking.
    However the central govt IS taking up steps against infiltration & terrorism in a roundabout sort of way through the impekmentation of the national identity card system which should (hopefully) help in identifying infiltrators.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I am pretty sure you are kind hearted and naive person. YOu must look at the views of soft-terrorists like Bobby to understand muslim mind.

    You are a non-entity in muslims politcal landscape as Maulana Azad was for muslims during partition.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @Ahmad,
    since you sunnis are not saying anything on the issue, it is left to the likes of a poor shia like me to wade into the issue.
    As the readers can see, shias get it from both sunnis (we are lumped with Hindu , Jew & other non believers)& hindus. TAlk about secularism..

    syed Reply:

    @Ahmad,
    reg khomeni, he was someone who was required at THAT time to get iran out from the rule of the despot shah of iran. Those times are over and gone, and as such the relevence of the irani mullas is by and large over. Iran is reverting to a true secular democracy, a la mosaddeq, and the process has already started.
    Is there any real difference between muta ( temporary marriage) in shias and misyar (travellers marriage) as practised by what you call “Main Islam” .
    I have no problems debating any other issue with you, but this is not the forum for it.

    Ashish Singh Rathore Reply:

    @syed ,
    i appreciate your views but the irony is that whatever happend & happening and will happen will not be per your nobel thoughts. i am not a fanatic Hindu nor biased one because as a true hindu we believe every living being(let alone humans ) as creation of god hence equal in all respect.
    but rational observation of real events tells some thing other.
    i wish people like you get their say in Muslim affair so that this world become better place & for this to happen you have to be active between you community & preach your thought.

    since it seems you belongs to Lucknow (like me also) you views are typical to old avad culture of mutual love & respect but mind you that majority Muslim community will not buy your view and you may be lynched for blasphemy. this is reality & irony .

    only solution is that Hindus should have to become powerful so that fanatic can suppressed and rooted out and secular character of country can be maintained but which seems a distant reality.

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    @Rajeev,
    If talking straight means i am naive, then i agree with you. I am not bothered about bobby or sam and others of his ilk on both sides of the religious spectrum, such people simply love to hate and are closed to reason and evidence.
    It does not matter if i am an entity or a non entity in the muslim political landscape. For the record there is absolutely no muslims politcal landscape to speak of in india.
    Coming back to the post, I would appreciate a pointwise rejoinder instead of comments on my nature.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I won’t waste time debating with muslims who have a unique worldview where muslims are innocents and everyone else is the opressor.

    I have been debating muslims for 15 years and I am convinced that there is nothing called liberal or moderate muslims. When it comes to Islam and Mohammad, all muslims are Jahils.

    There may be some good people like you but your kind is coward who is silenced by bullies in your community so you have no choice but to behave like them.

    I hope Islam will also crumble just like communism one day so that muslims like you can be freed from Arabic imperialism called Islam.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,
    What is stopping Indian Muslims from passing a resolution (fatwa, whatever you want to call it) about the way minorities are treated in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia ??

    There are many issues and when are picking all any/all global islamic causes, why not poor treatment of minorities because of blasphemy, blood money…

    Or altenatively, what is stopping them from NOT taking Saudi money for islamic purposes ?

    I have not seen a single step in telling Saudis that they should treat Shias, Christians, Hindus and Jews with respect and tolerance islam expects.
    They should do the same thing, they want other to do to them.

    Would you work on a such a thing and get an action or a statement from your fellow brothers ?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sam, I think re’ Saudi Arabia, the question should be posed to Ahmed; he is the Sunnni Avatar on this blog ;-)

    @Syed Incidentally, I have this article bookmarked, from a columnist I much admire (Mohib Ahmad):

    http://indianmuslims.in/introduction-to-islam-in-contemporary-india/

    With a very straight face, I point out to you, right now we only have Ahmed (Sunni), you (Shia) and Shafat (can’t tell) commenting on this blog from the Muslim sides. What if all 73 sects and sub-sects joined in? Imagination truly boggles!

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    I’ve had it here trying to defend muslims en masse, now just to educate you to shia rule in Avadh (pl make allowances for my weak history….). ..

    1) Shia rule in avadh started in early 1700
    2) hindus and muslims in avadh celebrated both their festivals together. The nawab also used to participate in hindu religious festivals as a matter of course.
    3) Forget about breaking temples, the nawabs actually BUILT temples (the well known hanuman temple in lucknow comes to my mind). Further, they gave gave land to hindus to build their temples & dharamshalas.
    4) Many religious ceremonies of hindus were actually started by the nawabs – the aishbagh ramlila ceremony in lucknow for example.
    5) No person was ever prosecuted (let alone killed) because of his religion– thats saying a lot because this was 1700 AD.
    6) While the original culture of Lucknow has been diluted to a large extent, however lucknow still retains some aspects such as mutual tolerance & respect in mannerisms and speech.

    check this link…
    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main.asp?filename=Ne013004tehelka.asp

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    No disputes. This is as much a part of our history and Lucknow’s famous Tehzeeb as much (should be?) part of our culture.
    Cheers

    Sam Reply:

    Syed,
    Who is asking you to defend Muslims enmasse. ?

    Defending is easy, as you just have to give a spin and do selective quoting of facts..
    (due to internet people are smarter than before and muslim spin masters will have tough time)

    Working for change is the most difficult.

    Again, what is stopping for Indian Sunni Muslims NOT to take money from Saudi ?
    Saudis are the worst perpertrators of religious , gender and racial discrimination in the whole world.
    It should be treated just like South Africa during apartheid.

    But ofcourse talk is cheap and certainly there are dogs that just bark and there are dogs that bite.

  • The_Onlooker

    A strange drama where both parties are heroes as well as villains. The supreme being sure scripts some strange tales.

    Cheers.

    [Reply]

  • gopi thomas

    @ Syed

    Syed is right about Oudh and Lucknow and his comments about Shia

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    India has already shown that it can even live the past oppressors.

    Hindus have never been an oppressor class in India or Pakistan.

    Pakistan should treats Hindus/sikhs with respect and equality.

    Show that it is a role model in the region for religious equality and put India to Shame.
    It can even provide some compensation for all the Hindu/Sikh properties they acquired.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @Ashish, @SAm@Gopi

    Which brings me to an important point – The Shias (and their sub sects such as Aga Khans, Bohras etc) who also follow the same Quran, the same prophet, and share a v large part of Islamic history with the sunnis can have a model secular govt.

    Understanding the reason for the difference in behavior may be the key for ensuring tolerance between the communities.

    TAke it from me, suggestions for “reforming” or “rewriting” the quran is not possible in the near future.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    Remember Japan was as stubborn as current muslims but two N-Bombs made it manufacture best transistors in the world.
    The muslims are testing patience of other and you will definitely re-write Quran once massive nuclear strike is done on Islamic countries.

    I said before when it comes to Quran both so called liberal Syed and hardcore fundoo Bobby are same.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed,
    at the outset, I am an atheist, though a Hindu and I have not read the Gita or the Manusmriti or the Upanishad or whatever. Witness my studied silence whenever any reference to Hindu scriptures is made here.
    So, it may be difficult for me to even understand a devout person’s viewpoint. In my family, my mother and wife pray every day. I don’t stop them; they never try to force me to do anything I do not want to do. Our daughters are growing up (at least the elder one is) fairly “godless”.
    I have friends who are Muslims. Many do not even fast during Ramzan, some do. The ones that do not, are not necessarily irreligious. Just unable/ unwilling to fast. I regularly hear banter from them to those who are fasting: “instead of fasting, do some work. Allah will bless you more!”
    I know an old Muslim gentleman, who has been on the Haj couple of times. He has also been to most of the Hindu shrines in this country and he definitely knows more about the different spiritual traditions of Hinduism than I do. I tease him about being an idolator and on a fast track to hell, and he teases me I am getting there faster and with no parachute to break my fall (he has so many Gods, you see! One or the other will save him). And, lest you think this is all this man does, he is a very well-known and highly educated (lots of degrees from fancy colleges) doctor with a roaring practice.
    Surprise, surprise. This old man does not even care about Halal (he does not eat pork, but that’s about the only concession..) The funny thing is that his children (and they are our family friends) are far more “conservative”.
    I know that with so many sects and so many countries and so on, all swearing allegiance to a book: any talk of re-writing is impossible. But, perhaps it is time to make the distinction between the “essential” Quran and the “non-essential” Quran. By Non-essential Quran, I mean the verses that are frankly, (and I am struggling for a non-offensive word here) incompatible with the idea of a modern, democratic polity. All the misogunistic references, all the incitement to violence.. Now, don’t please start a rant saying all those verses do not even exist or even if they do, there are counter-verses and so on..
    I am not advocating surgery. I am advocating a cold-storage for the parts which are not essential. And, this has to be done my Muslims. If it has to be a country-specific initiative, so be it. Like the King James Bible.
    As an aside, I grew up reading a (long dead) Bengali author called Syed Mujtaba Ali (continues to be a perpetual favourite).

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish
    Well let me tell you, my views match yours to a large extent. While my roots are from Lucknow, I did my early schooling from Calcutta and that city has had a big impact on me.
    Coming to the main issue of essential vs non essential quran, i have already addressed them in my earlier posts.
    pasting…..
    “The Aga Khans believe that the quran exists on 2 levels- a literal meaning based on a cursory reading and a hidden meaning which can be interpreted by the imam. Twelver Shias belive in something similar”.
    So there you have it. The quran can, and is, being reinterpreted as per the cutrrent times. So the verses incompatible with modern democracy can be laid to rest. The aga khanis are the most advanced in this process. For eg. how many of you know that amongst shias slaughtering and eating cows is haram (in india). The reasoning is that the cow is the sacred animal of a v large community in india and slaughtering or eating it will hurt their religious feelings.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Then how come a Shia (Jinnah) said they cannot live with Hindus ?

    Common, dont try to portray that Shia’s are secular, just based on some data points.

    Did shia’s condemn blasphemy, dhimmitude, religious apartheid, ….

    nothing

    Just picking some data from 17th century gives you to paint with broad strokes ?

    common Syed, you are more intelligent than your writings…
    you know your final goal and unfortunately taking a nuanced view, but nevertheless have the same objective as other Sunnis/Talibunnies..

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    Sam,

    One humble request. Please do not make personal attacks on people who atleast are trying to debate reasonably. You could differ with them on some issues but that does not mean we do not give them space. I think @Syed is making reasonable comments and perhaps we ought to give some respect to the debate process. My two cents – please chose to ignore if you deem fit.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Taking an example of 17th century situation and claiming that Shias are secular is just too broad of generalization.

    So I had point out other Shias like Jinnah who created a religious state..

    There is nothing personal, just pointing out his unjustified broad strokes..

    Syed Reply:

    @sam
    I never implied that shias are epitomes of virtue. However the fact is that a lot of them are willing to shed the old baggage and move on.
    I personally condemn dimminitude, blasphemy and religious aparthied etc. and most of my fellow shias do the same, if that is any solace to you.
    One jinnah does not make a shia any more than one modi makes the hindu. Why should i take a stand with sunnies when most of them consideeer us non muslims.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    The question is

    “did Shias condemn dhimmitude….”

    not your personal condemnations or people surrounding you..

    The only well known Shia to Indians is Jinnah, and it is a tall order for you to convince anything about Shia’s want to shed the old baggage…

    Did they issue any proclamation or fatwa that Shia’s want secularism and Jinnah was wrong….

    I doubt, if anything like that happened or if they will ever do it..

    Jinnah and Modi are in different league.
    Modi did not say, muslims have to leave Gujarat.
    Muslims killing Hindus in Gujarat was an age old problem.
    The only thing under Modi, is Hindus reacted more than the past…
    So the muslim media is in an overdrive to make sure, it does not happen next time, instead of helping find out why Muslims did this in the first place

    So now the pseudo liberal media wants to defang Hindus, by blaming Modi.

    If they want to do it, I want to see muslims condemn Ghori/Ghazni/Akbar/Aurangazeb..

    Syed Reply:

    @sam
    I dont know if the shias condemmed dhimmitude or not. But i do know that in the areas they ruled in india no person was prosecuted in any manner whatsoever due to his religion. So whats more important to you – words or action?

    Fatwas are all bull**** & a dime a dozen & no one bothers about them. Today you have in the HT or TOI (cant recall) a fatwa by none other than dar ul uloom to the effect outlawing iftar parties in which politicians etc attend. The article goes on to say that no muslim is bothered with the fatwa and iftar parties are going on merrily as before.

    There is no point in debating the merits or demerits of modi and jinnah. I confess i know hardly anything about jinnah.

    I dont know whether i am a pseudo or a true liberal or just a liberal or whatever. And just for your satisfaction I wholeheartedly condemn Ghori/Ghazni & Aurangzeb for what they did against hindus. But why Akbar?

    Sam Reply:

    Akbar is portrayed as a great friend of all religions which is partially true compared to other islamic crooks.

    But there is another side to him, where he reimposed Jizya, destroyed multiple Hindu temples, so many other things.

    His portrayal should be true, not an adulation for just being a little better than an fanatical Ghazi.

  • syed

    @Rajeev,
    There is a difference btween rewriting and reintrpreting.
    The Aga Khans believe that the quran exists on 2 levels- a literal meaning based on a cursory reading and a hidden meaning which can be interpreted by the imam. Twelver Shias belive in something similar.
    So basically the interpretation can and is changed depending on the times.
    In other words, there is no need or rewriting, when reinterpretation will suffice.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Then please re-interpret Quran but can you make Sunnis agree to that.

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    @Rajeev
    Incidentally you had rejected my earlier post on the grounds that my views did not reflect that of the muslim community and i was a non entity ïn the muslim political landscape”.
    Now here when I have said that rewriting the quran is not possible (the community view, not my own mind you) you write that I & hardcore bo=bby are the same. So basically for me it is dammed if i do and dammed if i dont.
    All i have to say is that I find extremists the same everywhere. They just cannot (or do not want to) see another point of view. Just to enlighten you a little – Check up on the Aga Khan Development Network. It is THE largest charitable trust in the world providing help irrespective of religion, caste or creed. I can tell you of many more!

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    @Rajeev,

    There are main points on which I agree with your data points, however, very humbly request you to not make personal attacks on people who are trying to be reasonable. You could differ with them on some issues but that does not mean we do not give them space. I think @Syed is making reasonable comments and perhaps we ought to give some respect to the debate process. My two cents – please chose to ignore if you deem fit.

    @Syed, – I agree with your sentiments generally and also some of your points specifically. My only correction is on the aga khan network. I think they largely work for their community or broadly for muslims. They do work for others but it is incidental. I know because my wife worked with them. But I am not suggesting by this data that they are communal or anything like that. My two cents.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Indian
    Reg Rajeev – Thats not fair Indian. Let Rajeev have his say. It only makes the debate more interesting.

    Reg. aga khan network – I know them through their acssociation with HDFC (in which they were one of the main initial equity holders as well as well as their investment in a few other companies the investment in whcih was from a philanthropic angle. None of these companies was remotely connected with muslims. But since your wife has worked with them then i stand corrected. But the AGKN is huge straddling scores of countries.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have problem when Syed is defending muslims in general without looking inward. I have absolutely no problem with his arguement that Shias are generally peaceful. I have experienced it firsthand in lucknow during 1992 riots.

    [Reply]

  • syed

    @ashish, sam, indian and others..

    This debate is really leading nowhere. I feel it is time to wrap it up & would lik to make some finaal comments..

    If i essentialize (sorry Zia), the chief grouses hindus have againt muslims are (as per these blogs):
    1) Involvement in riots/terrorist activities
    2) Preference of pakistan over india ie. being traitors
    3) Brutal treatment by muslim invaders of the hindu masses.

    Since i am now speaking on behalf of the shias only i would like to say with 100% certainity that NOT ONE shia has been involved in riots/terrorist activities in india (there are regular shia-sunni riots but thats another story). No shia has even a shade of preference for pakistan and i have already pointed out – never discriminated against hindus when in power.
    So what reason can you guys have for latching on to me now?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    I totally agree with you. I have found that Shias are much more tolerant than Sunnis but the problem is it is not Shia who set the muslim agenda. It is Sunnis who set agenda for muslims and force all muslims to follow it.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @rajeev
    extremely difficult t as shias in india are maybe 15% of total muslims. Its only in lucknow that shias are more, but even then, much less than sunnis.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Who is stopping from Shia’s forming their own board and setting their part of agenda ?
    or they are setting Muslim agenda together (without any major objections) ?

    Or they are just the same, with some minor theological disagreements.
    We dont care what those theological arguments are, but they are not much different in the bigger picture in polygamy, apostasy, support for Jizya, triple talaaq’s validity, Shah bano type cases…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Do Shias have separate Muslim Law (than Sunnis) or would they be governed by UCC ?

    Shias have to overcome the divisive nature of Muslims in general, epitomized by Jinnah.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @Syed, it is not personal; I hope you know that.

    It is not even against Shias.. even though the “not a single Shia” claim is as untenable as any absolute claim..

    You are a good man and I will let you go on a good note. It will be churlish to bring up names like Ghulam Ali Gulzar (Kashmir AffairsDOT org into this…
    Peace

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    Further in kargil, which is the only district in india with a shia majority, has never till date has any terrorism problem. my brother in the army who was posted there has also confirmed this.
    incidentally india came to know that pakistan had intruded into kargil though a shia shepherd. i still remember the news.

    [Reply]

    Syed Reply:

    @Ashish,
    I stand corrected, there is nothing like absolute truth. However i (and most of us?) have not heard about gulam ali and frankly did not see anything wrong in Kashmir AffairsDOT org .
    Did you check up on my earlier post in reply to yours..
    i used to debate in college but being a muslim onthis blog is a challenge. Ill definitely meet you on other posts.
    till then take care

    [Reply]

    Indian Reply:

    @syed,

    I would also like to end on a positive note. Frankly, I do not have anything against shias or infact even the sunnis or muslims in general. As long as people accept some basic truths and understand the roots of the problems, these issues wil actually be easily solved and the energies will start getting diverted to a better and prosperous India with all sections participating in the development.

    Again, I do not want to be a party pooper but want to point out that post independence in gujarat, the biggest riots happened in 1969 during a moharram procession (Shia) when a cow inadvertently ended up near the procession and then all hell broke loose. Some Shia’s do claim that the sunni’s used it to start the riots, but thought, I should point out. However, I generally agree with your sentiment on a) shia’s have generally not be involved in stupid things b) all muslims should not be blamed for everything c) please remember it is not personal (as mentioned by Ashish)

    Let honest debates continue – as long as everyone is reasonable and tries to be objective and looks at data dispassionately, I think things will only move ahead positively.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    It is simple.

    Would India have been better off with or without Partition ?

    Is India better off with or without Muslims ?

    Just yes or no, will determine these complex and competing issues.

    If there is an overall poll taken in india, I am sure (inspite of secular nature) most Indians would say, India would be better of without Muslims (all the distractions and energy spent of Muslim issues, takes away time from other important development issues).

    I am also sure, Indians will accept the current scenario (and have been accepting since 1947) as long as they are not targeted by Saudi Money and Pakistan’s terrrorists.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    :-)
    .. earlier post? Kargil.. Shia shephard? Yes, I did.

    http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/interview_ghulam%20ali%20gulzar.html

    [Reply]

  • Syed

    @ashish,
    No, a post before that..
    The only kashmiri shia leader who has some influence and is largely accepted is Iftikhar Ansari. The rest alre all self self styled ones. An internet search on his name will give just the one link you have sent (the others will be of ghulam ali the singer).
    In fact my name gives many more results :)

    [Reply]

  • Divakar

    @Syed,

    Ur views are very refreshing and u spoke very objectively….We need much more individuals like u…

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Syed is saying nothing new.
    It is just a game most moderate sounding Muslims play.

    Here is how it is played.
    State that Koran is not the cause of violence and Koran will not be changed.
    Who is Jinnah, what is happening in Saudi/muslim world are not their issues.
    (while taking money from Saudi’s for their mosques)

    Simultaneously claim muslims were all powerful in the past ( think they ruled the whole of India) and now they are behind solely because of anti-islam perception.

    (again no plans or intention for self introspection).

    Simultaneously claims fatwa’s mean nothing, but do not want to condemn any of them.

    want the polygamy continued or just say that they are ok if it is changed but never recommend any changes to Muslim personal law.
    Never answer, what is stopping them from accepting UCC or why Sharia law is needed in first place.

    never condemn what happened to Kashmiri pundits or Jizya collection from Hindu/Sikhs in pakistan.

    More of these..
    But I cannot just point muslims, as Hindu do not know the value of religious freedom and how to protect themselves from predators.
    If Hindus want to sacrifice their own interests, why shouldnt a demagogue muslim masquerading as moderate take advantage of it.

    [Reply]

    syed Reply:

    @sam
    No point in replying.
    Let the readers come to their own conclusions after reading the posts.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Syed,
    There is lot of truth in what SAM is saying. I have experienced this kind of muslim behaviour. They invent logic and excuses for every damn things muslims do starting from simple Khatna to terrorism.

    Sam Reply:

    please watch

    http://www.memritv.org

    and listen to all the sermons given by muslim clerics, politicians in Gulf.

    They clearly tell that Koran tells them to do whatever they are doing.

    When so many of the learned scholars and religious people tell those things, I have to take their word at face value.

    so called moderates do not have any chance of being on a stronger theological grounds contesting them.

    People like Zia, should spend their energies in changing the “perceptions” of those important Muslim clerics in muslim lands first.

    Can Zia or Syed do those, ??

    They want to chose an easy target instead of debating or countering the people like Zakir Naik…

    Why ?

    I am not surprised, as they cannot debate them because Koran genuinely says those things terrorists say.

    syed Reply:

    @sam, rajeev
    I had decided to close my posts here as all we were doing was going round in circles. but u2 have successfully dragged me out again. Anyway this is definitely my lsat post here. All i have to say is that over the years of calling muslims closed minded u yourselves have become the victim of closedmindedness. When i say something you conveniently ignore it and justr keep on saying the same old things while i try to understand, and reply to the point.

    So i am replying pointwise….
    1) I have NOT said that the quran does not contain violent verses.
    2) In my personal view the quran needs to be changed. However since the community cannot accept that, it must be reinterpreted.
    3) I dont know anything about jinnah to debate with you
    4) Why will the saudis give money to shias for their mosques? they group us with non muslims. In fact saudis have DEMOLISHED shia shrines in saudi arabia
    5) I do NOT support polygamy (maybe i have no choice, my (only)wife will kill me)
    6) Secular law is needed not only in india but throughout the world.
    7) What has happened to kashmiri pundits in kashmir bcoz of the pakistani terrorists and sikhs due to taliban is WRONG.
    8) I can and do try to change the perception of my circle of friends, family and children.
    9) And this is how we people from lucknow counter the “great” Zakir Naik”
    http://www.zeenews.com/newspapers/2008-11-09/481984news.html

    MOst of the points have already been covered in my earlier posts but you just did not bother (or did not want to) read them.

    Talking of changing perceptions, why dont you two influence hindus to implement the uniform civil code and stop immigration from bangladesh- Things i have already written in my post, instead of just trying to pull down muslims for its own sake. Take it from me, it will not get you anywhere.

    And Rajeev, please have some basic decency in your writing. It reflects poorly on your background.

    Sam Reply:

    Syed says,
    >So i am replying pointwise….
    >1) I have NOT said that the quran does not contain violent verses.

    Do you accept Koran has violent verses ? it is not clear without your double negative statements that you are saying anything.

    >2) In my personal view the quran needs to be changed. However since the community >cannot accept that, it must be reinterpreted.
    As long as it is not changed it will spawn terrorists.

    But as long as Muslims dont get “Sudden Jihad Syndrome” that is fine.

    >3) I dont know anything about jinnah to debate with you
    We are not debating.
    Shias cannot simultaneously claim they are secular and never harmed Hindus and have Jinnah as the well known Shia.
    Again I see inability to accept multiple realities.

    >4) Why will the saudis give money to shias for their mosques? they group us with non >muslims. In fact saudis have DEMOLISHED shia shrines in saudi arabia
    I said Muslims, not shias taking saudi money.

    >5) I do NOT support polygamy (maybe i have no choice, my (only)wife will kill me)
    So would you support banning it ? again your statements are wishy washy regarding change. What you do is your personal between you and your wife, but we are talking about the muslim community.

    >6) Secular law is needed not only in india but throughout the world.
    Why dont you start with Pakistan, Saudi…

    >7) What has happened to kashmiri pundits in kashmir bcoz of the pakistani terrorists and sikhs due to taliban is WRONG.

    Why Pakistani terrorists, who have names like Army of Allah, …all islamic names
    (none of them have Pakistan in their names).
    So why not call them Muslim terrorists ?

    >8) I can and do try to change the perception of my circle of friends, family and children.
    >9) And this is how we people from lucknow counter the “great” Zakir Naik”
    >http://www.zeenews.com/newspapers/2008-11-09/481984news.html

    this is just a theological debate within Islam.
    Nothing else about secularism, jizya, apostasy or any other outdated views Zakir has.
    They did not counter Zakir on that front.

    So it just looks like wishy washy things, without really saying anything major.
    I am not expecting it anyway, but will be surprised if it happens.

    Indian Reply:

    @Sam, @rajeev,

    Please, please, please do not make personal comments. I think @syed has been very reasonable and you guys repeatedly attack him even if he makes rationale comments. I do not think this is fair. I share your views on many issues, but frankly I also think @syed is saying similar things.

    What you are doing is making sweeping allegations against @syed and frankly spoiling the atmosphere. We need open minded debates and for once do not turn away the decent debators. PLease, you are not serviing your own interest in this manner. This is a request.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Agreed, it should not be sweeping allegations against anyone for that matter.

    So can Muslims accept RSS and BJP are just defending Hindu rights and not against muslims ?

    or generalizations against muslims is not acceptable, but is it fine with RSS/BJP/Gujarat Govt ?

    Can muslims accept destroyed temples should be rebuilt or should all of them be just ruins ?

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sam,
    Here’ my perspective on your questions (Indian should recall the very interesting dialog on this blog that I had with him)

    1. So can Muslims accept RSS and BJP are just defending Hindu rights and not against muslims ?

    How can the Muslims show their acceptance? By voting for BJP or joining the RSS, correct? Now, in a democracy, it is upto you and me and everyone to support/ vote/ join any party/ association they think they will be best served by.
    BJP has not marketed itself well to this constituency; which I personally think is unfortunate. But, that is neither here not there.

    2. or generalizations against muslims is not acceptable, but is it fine with RSS/BJP/Gujarat Govt ?

    Generalizations against anyone is not acceptable, including RSS/ BJP/ Gujarat govenment. Which is one of the reason I do not even try, (as my fellow-bigot, secular aspirant SKS still does) to reason with people with “liberal” agenda. After months on this blog, I have come to the conclusion that the biggest threat to the Muslims and Hindus in this country are the so called “liberals”.
    At the same time, no individual or even organization is one-dimensional. Even a bigot like Aurangzeb had facets to his character and he has left lasting legacies (in administrative structures, for example).

    3. Can muslims accept destroyed temples should be rebuilt or should all of them be just ruins ?

    I say Muslims should accept a version of history that has not been sanitised to remove all references to past atrocities. That done, let us move on. We can’t treat the whole country as a giant real-estate court case.
    I hope you have read your Aesop’s fables. The wolf and the lamb? I think getting the son to pay for his father’s sins is not admissible by law anywhere.
    Since all you guys read so much, you might want to read a book by Mitchener called “The Source”. When does history begin? When do you stop settling scores?
    And, as I have kept saying, who will pay? If you are thinking of taxing me to build a temple, man, all I can say is, “you want blood-shed, you can have it :-) “.
    While rebuilding old temples, sounds a grand idea, I do think we should have other priorities.

    However, if, you can create a business plan and show me how re-building a temple in Somnath will pay for itself in 5 years (take 10 years to build, after 20 years to approve the idea, 30 years to float a tender and approve the plan…) I will work with you to canvass for PE funding to make that possible. Deal?

    @Syed,
    So long as we have the Congress ruling the politics in the country with its false secularism, you can expect no work on UCC but more Shah Banos type of legislations. Ditto, on the Bangladeshi immigrations and population control policies. In many cases, we pay the price for having very weak leadership.

    Sam Reply:

    Who is asking for son to pay for father’s mistakes ?
    (By the way it is acceptable in Arab law and culture, as muslims want to mindlessly ape arab culture it should be easy for them to agree to it.).

    So the govt should repair all destroyed temples and until that happens they should give any Haj subsidy (which should be removed anyway).

    Sam Reply:

    I dont have time to do a point by point response to some valid opinions you expressed.

    In democracy voting is not the only way.
    There is freedom of speech and some muslims atleast should be vocal about protecting HIndus rights in india and specifically pakistan.

    Govt can create fund to repair and rebuild some historic Hindu temples.
    If they can fund Haj pilgrims for muslims why not spend same amount on a per capita basis for Hindus (and leave hindu temples to manage themselves).

    This can be collected by an exclusive tax on Muslims (reverse Jizya).
    As muslims believe Jizya is allah’s word, Muslims can show that they are secular by giving all the Jizya collected during Mughal period.

    (of course I am dreaming,,i know it is not going to happen in my life).

    Indian Reply:

    Sam,

    My point is this that Syed is not making those comments and generalizations that you speak of, so do not attack Syed. That is all. He is putting his points and instead of accepting his view point, you ignore it and go on the attack. That my friend is not fair.

    Perhaps, you should point out some activities that RSS does and I think somebody like Syed may agree to some of your points. Eg.- RSS recently adopted 100 children in J&K, whose parents were killed by terrorists. RSS provided food, schooling etc for these children. Most of them were muslims.

    See my point?

    Rajeev Reply:

    I agree with you. Syed is a nice guy.

  • syed

    @sam
    1) I have NOT said that the quran does not contain violent verses.
    Do you accept Koran has violent verses ? it is not clear without your double negative statements that you are saying anything.
    MY ANSWER—-The quran does contain certain violent verses.

    2) In my personal view the quran needs to be changed. However since the community >cannot accept that, it must be reinterpreted.
    As long as it is not changed it will spawn terrorists.
    But as long as Muslims dont get “Sudden Jihad Syndrome” that is fine.
    Ans—- Muslims may or may not get sudden death syndrome or any other medical condition. I am not responsible for the actions of the entire muslim community in india or the world.

    3) I dont know anything about jinnah to debate with you
    We are not debating.
    Shias cannot simultaneously claim they are secular and never harmed Hindus and have Jinnah as the well known Shia.
    Again I see inability to accept multiple realities.
    Ans—–Pasting one of your earlier posts – “Taking an example of 17th century situation and claiming that Shias are secular is just too broad of generalization”.
    Who is generalising ,me or you? You take up one one individual (Jinnah) as and make him representative of the entire shia community in India. However you very conveniently chose to ignore shia rule in india spanning a period of over 150 years and about 15 rulers NONE of whom prosecuted hindus and say it is just too broad of generalization. Is this not doublespeak and failure to accept multiple realities?

    >4) Why will the saudis give money to shias for their mosques? they group us with non >muslims. In fact saudis have DEMOLISHED shia shrines in saudi arabia
    I said Muslims, not shias taking saudi money.
    Ans—Yes Saudis give money and lots of it to sunnis for their mosques.

    >5) I do NOT support polygamy (maybe i have no choice, my (only)wife will kill me)
    So would you support banning it ? again your statements are wishy washy regarding change. What you do is your personal between you and your wife, but we are talking about the muslim community.
    Ans—Yes, I support banning polygamy (Since you need me to spell it out. However I have time and again written that I prefer a common civil code, but somehow it just does not register in your brain!). The muslim community should definitely ban polygamy but that is something not in my hands.

    >6) Secular law is needed not only in india but throughout the world.
    Why dont you start with Pakistan, Saudi…
    Ans— So what do you expect me to do? Ride on a white horse into Pakistan & Saudi Arabia waving a sword & ask for secular law?

    >7) What has happened to kashmiri pundits in kashmir bcoz of the pakistani terrorists and sikhs due to taliban is WRONG.
    Why Pakistani terrorists, who have names like Army of Allah, …all islamic names
    (none of them have Pakistan in their names).
    So why not call them Muslim terrorists ?
    Ans—Absolutely no problems. If it makes you happy call terrorists by their religion – Muslim terrorists, Hindu terrorists & Christian terrorists. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    >8) I can and do try to change the perception of my circle of friends, family and children.
    Ans—No answer from you here, so I hope here at least here you have closed this issue.

    >9) And this is how we people from lucknow counter the “great” Zakir Naik”
    >http://www.zeenews.com/newspapers/2008-11-09/481984news.html
    this is just a theological debate within Islam.
    Nothing else about secularism, jizya, apostasy or any other outdated views Zakir has.
    They did not counter Zakir on that front.
    Ans—Its not clear what you expect from me on this. If I ever come fact to face to zakir naik I would not have any issue on debating with him.

    Now coming to the issue on what YOU are doing which you have very conveniently ignored (apart from hitting the internet):
    1) What are you doing in influencing hindus in implemening the uniform civil code
    2) Stopping immigration from Bangladesh
    3) Implementing population planning policies
    ……. To name just a few..

    Now if you will excuse me, I have get back to my life….

    [Reply]

  • yasir ghauri

    hi.
    my request to all plz
    Prophet Mohammad (SAW) ka name adab ehtraam se lia kro gustakhana lehja n words istamal krne se debate,debate nai rehti. apni thoughts mn lachak lao kisi ki baat sunne ka hosla rakho.
    regards

    [Reply]

  • Ali Khan

    Hi everybody!

    I can see some very legitimate stuff being discussed here. I wish Zia could be more involved in moderating this discussion.

    I would like to send out a message to my good friend, Sam. Sam, look around you bro, I see 4 hindus for every muslim. Why is Islam and Muslims such a threat to you? Relax, no body is out there to impose their prophecies on you. Infact, if anybody should be concerned, it is the muslims. Hindus outnumber them by far and large, Hindus are more educated, more wealthy and more connected.

    Instead, of holding on to the past, lets honestly try to bridge gaps and make India a better place, for you and for me. There is one thing that is sure as hell, Muslims are here to stay. If you think you can finish them, it just doesn’t work that way. The Serbians tried to massacre Muslims in Bosnia, there were a couple of million, they couldn’t do it. The only option you have is to see us every time and get hurt in the heart, or to look at us, smile and be proud that you live in a tolerant nation, where you despite being in majority let others thrive.

    Two wrongs, never make a right. If there is stuff you disagree to in Islam, the least you can do is to stay away from it yourself.

    Nice talking to you!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Secularism cannot be upheld by HIndus only.

    Only when Muslims want it, it will be upheld
    (they should show that they care for violations of religious rights, for everyone).

    So when Jizya is being collected and forced conversions are happening in Pakistan/Bangladesh what is Muslims stand on it ?

    Why do they need special rights/privileges, Haj subsidy ?

    What is happening in Arab, Muslim world is going to effect India sooner or later.
    So let us keep an open eye and just dont say that is not our issues.

    we live in an open world, where culture, issues are exported all over the world.

    When I point out the religious apartheid in KSA, Muslims say that is not there issue.
    then why are they taking money from them and supporting every stupid move exclusively in favor of KSA/muslims.

    Can’t they see what is happening in right in front of our eyes, like ethnic cleansing in Kashmir valley, forced conversions in our history, violent conversions …
    of course moderate muslims, belong to soft terrorists category (most of them anyway, by their verbal jihad of defending terrorists, sharia, dhimmitude…)

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Yes no one can compete with Muslims on violence.
    Only some nut cases from west like Hitler could compete in that macabre fashion.

    There are estimates that upto 80 Million Hindus are killed by Muslims throughout history.

    [Reply]

  • L Mirza

    Sam, you are right on many counts. but Ali is also right. We cannot do anything for the past crimes. Let us all work together to make India the best. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists. Yes, there is a violent group; but that is a small number. Majority wants to share and grow. Together, we cn degeat extremism, whichever part .

    At the end of the dfay, Indian Muslims roots are only in India; whatever religion says.

    [Reply]

  • sabah

    hello, I find it very applauding to see so many perspectives of the issue being discussed here and also some who are stuck up on some specific points with an alarming leech- like fanaticism. How can we change the past, even if that past has some truths in it, how can we change governments, ideologies and mind- sets of some trapped-in- their- own- garbage minds. We can’t but we can use constructive dialogue to chart a better life and a better India- with Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Jains and others living as friends. And believe me friends can disagree with each other.
    I don’t know how to tell you and wouldn’t even want to boast about the kind of love and attachment I have towards my country, despite being a practicing, proud Muslim.

    [Reply]

  • Sriram

    Well written.. The people who wanted to be distinguished themselves owning a hatch will go for this. Impressive mileage and rocking specifications.. I am planning for this..

    [Reply]

  • http://www.national-autotransport.com/ HughHaley@ Auto Transport

    This car is definitely a cool car! I like mini cars so I guess this will pass also seeing the photos you have done it gives me a better view in an out of it which is such a fantastic way of doing a review. You are definitely doing a great job with your articles.

    [Reply]

  • Ramesh Talwani

    MANMOHAN SING IS WAITING FOR ANOTHER 1962. HE WANTS TO TELL HIS GRANDCHILDERN THAT AS A HONOURLESS PM HE HAD BEEN EVERY NOOK AND CORNER OF THE WORLD INCLUDILG TIMBUKTOO. AND MOMENTOS RECD ARE PROOF.
    THE WORST IS TO COME.WRITING IS CLEARCUT ON WALL.

    [Reply]

  • http://nuclearsupremacyforindiaoverus.blogspot.com/ Satish Chandra

    November 18, 2011: When I say the new Chief of Air Staff, N. A. K. Browne, is a CIA-RAW man, I mean he literally sits at CIA-supplied terminals to participate in crimes against India. More than a thousand Indian Air Force aircraft have crashed since 1970, the vast majority of the crashes caused by microwaves from U. S. satellites. In his first week in office as Chief of Air Staff, Browne caused two Indian Air Force fighter planes to crash with microwaves from satellites, to give a boost to his bid to buy worse than worthless foreign aircraft for several tens of billions of dollars of which he will get a hefty cut along with the Defence Minister and the Italian woman who gets the largest cut.//

    I said on October 11 ‘11 ( IndianAirForcePilotsMurderDOTblogspotDOTcom ) that the ’suicide’ of the chief test pilot Baldev Singh was murder, to facilitate the claim of the fraudulent ‘delay’ in inducting the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, being used to justify the worse than worthless purchase abroad. India builds Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from raw materials; why do you need to buy fighter aircraft from abroad?//

    N. A. K. Browne, A. K. Antony and the Italian woman should be booked for the murder of Baldev Singh along with the head of RAW. All former heads of RAW should be booked for the murders of hundreds of Indian Air Force pilots.//

    The murders of several politicians by air crash have also been accomplished by microwaves from satellites. A recent example was the murder of the Andhra Pradesh chief minister by air crash. In my blog I have described how Indira Gandhi when prime minister in 1980 went to her kitchen with the then U. S. Vice President and former CIA Director, George Herbert Walker Bush, to arrange for the murder by air crash of her son Sanjay Gandhi who had taken to slapping her in the presence of others under my influence and the then CIA Director, Frank Carlucci, publicly claimed credit for that air crash via a letter that appeared in National Review.//

    November 17, 2011: Integrated Circuit chips made in the United States are required to provide for access to the United States National Security Agency so it can monitor and take control of their operations at will. Components and electronic equipment from the United States should be absolutely “haram”; far from lamenting ‘technology denial’, equipment from the United States should be rejected even if it is offered on a platter and free of charge as I have said. India’s bought-up Defence, Atomic Energy, Space and other officials deliberately close their eyes to this threat. This also applies to U. S.- made civilian aircraft, for example. There are two hundred thousand Indian engineers and scientists working in Research & Development for foreign companies in India but instead of putting its money in Research & Development ( in my letter dated January 5, 2004 to the press — see my blog — I had suggested one million Research & Development workers in India in government-sponsored projects), India’s CIA-RAW government buys foreign equipment in all fields to keep India poor, weak and enslaved. India’s government lends hundreds of billions of dollars to the U. S. government in exchange for worthless U. S. paper but seeks foreign investment and World Bank loans for projects in India, giving ownership and control of India to India’s enemies, despite the unlimited capital available to India by simply printing the money; see ‘How India’s Economy Can Grow 30% Per Year Or More’ in my blog; as is described there, the United States has been applying my proposal about money by stealth and now also openly but Manmohan Singh refuses to do so because this bugger — a CIA appointee — does what serves the United States’, not India’s, interests.//

    I had asked the Indian Army to arrest the top one thousand or so officers of RAW. It has not done so. But, as I have said, India’s nuclear forces obey Satish Chandra. He does not need India’s conventional forces or the rest of the government and citizenry to defend India which requires the destruction of RAW which will be done by nuclear means, that is, the simultaneous nuclear destruction of New Delhi, Washington and New York, with a warning that additional U. S. cities will be destroyed, with nuclear warheads already emplaced in them by special forces, if there is any retaliation. //

    I am India’s expert in strategic defence, the father of India’s strategic program including the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program, the world’s greatest scientist (my biography can be found in Marquis’ Who’s Who in the World, 2011 and earlier editions) and India’s legitimate ruler; for more on the subject above see ‘What You Should Know About RAW’ in my blog titled ‘Nuclear Supremacy For India Over U. S.’ which can be found by a Yahoo/Google search with the title.//

    Satish Chandra

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It’s only three years of the incident and hopefully we would not forget the same in another 300 years, as we lack more important issues. We have a lot of different names of Islamic terrorist groups to blame for such incidents, but who knows whether they really exist? There might be thousands of such incidents in the past, but the coverage is given to the massacres involving rich and elite class and no one cares to talk for underprivileged dying of starvation throughout the country. Politicians were there on the seats during the incidents and would remain there forever and only difference could be of names or working location because that is the class, which has to be benefitted in all cases and conditions.

    Our country and people are in not in a good state and there are lot of more important issues like poverty, inflation, deteriorating condition of roads & water supply, corruption & failure of democracy etc, which media has to raise rather than popping up same old and useless issues like 26/11, incidents of demolition of Babri mosque & Godhra etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I concur with your conclusions and will thirstily look forward to your upcoming updates

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    A very balanced article.

    It would be wrong and stupid for us to forget the acrifices our defence personnel have made.

    Not to forget, the jehadis i Pakistan are being primed to attack us again…

    [Reply]

  • Rajeev Deveshwar

    It is, to say the least, hilarious reading the comments to this article. What the commentators seem to forget, it is they who elected the people in power through the “democratic process” So really it is they who are responsible for the state of affairs.No point in crucifying democracy or hinduism.The parliament is a reflection of its electorate.As a side note,India today is no different from the Roman empire during the reign of Nero, steeped in filth, squalor,corruption,chicanery, debauchery,and, perversion reaching its body and soul. It needs to be cleansed.Democracy won’t cut it.

    [Reply]

  • pizza stone

    pizza stone…

    Heal or harm, the choice is ours : They Call Me Muslim…

  • http://shopmywatch.org/luxury-watches-not-just-a-time-piece-its-…

    http://shopmywatch.org/luxury-watches-not-just-a-time-piece-its-…...

    Heal or harm, the choice is ours : They Call Me Muslim…