A house for Mr Hashmi



A housing complex in Mumbai has blocked a move by Indian actor Emraan Hashmi to acquire an apartment in the city’s upscale Pali Hill area because he is Muslim, the actor has alleged.
 
The case has brought back the debate about prejudices Muslims face, and how our secular republic reconciles itself with equal rights guaranteed by the constitution to minorities.Discrimination against minorities is often subtle, difficult to address legally and harder to prove.
 
More and more young, educated Muslims, single and couples, are leaving their native comfort zones for bigger cities for employment. They may not be denied jobs – discrimination is never that blatant — but are safely deprived of decent housing on the grounds that their way of life is “incompatible” with the Hindu society. There is a need to first correct our sociological assessment and reclaim our plural identities. Indian values are not Hindu values alone.   
 
Discrimination against minorities is often denied but can easily be uncovered. The ‘altering eye, alters all’. Try this. Assume that you are a Muslim young man, married with a child. Call on a few brokers in Delhi’s Rohini locality for example. Here’s what to expect: brokers will either mince words, or jack up the rent seven times to scare you off or, if you are lucky, bluntly tell you the unpalatable truth.
 
Muslims seldom articulate such discrimination at the drop of a hat. Hashmi is a celebrity and the media gladly heard him out. However, thousands of ordinary Muslims not just frequently put up with such discrimination but also grin and bear it. 
 
Bias of this sort is not bound by the law, which may limit blatant forms of discrimination, like denial of a job. It is an invisible arrow; not open bigotry and therefore twice as dangerous.      
 
Hashmi is now unlikely to get the flat. His landlord, according to newspaper reports, has told him that he did not wish to sell the flat because his Canada-based son might need it.
 
I have no reason to doubt Hashmi’s claims. Pulling out of deals to sell or rent houses to Muslims at the eleventh hour on grounds of the client’s religion is a reality. The property owner usually proffers this notoriously familiar excuse: his son based abroad is heading back home and moving in. It is difficult to deny a deserving Muslim admission in college or jobs but it’s easy to deny him a house on rent or a place up for sale.
 
Some time ago, much before Hashmi came up with his case, I was seated across the table with India’s minority affairs minister Salman Khurshid. I wondered if he was aware of Muslims facing discrimination in housing. “Yes and I stay in a Muslim locality where they don’t deliver pizzas,” he said.  Khurshid feels Muslims have to reason with Hindus and find a creative solution, which though may not be easy. He is right.
 
We as Indian Muslims are struggling to remain who we are. I am sorry to see the slow death of Hindu liberalism. Much as we fail to see it, Hindu right-wing nationalism has spurred a hostile reawakening of the Hindu faith, much like radical Islam. 
 
The mixed legacy of our villages is still largely intact. It is in our cities where differences have sharpened. The reality is that Muslims in urban India are facing a post-assimilation problem. They are blamed for failing to integrate and mainstream themselves; and are thought to be not loyal enough.
 
However, racial integration is not our problem at all. We come largely from the same stock, having converted roughly between 700 and 900 years ago. Integration is done and long over.
 
We are not European Muslims coping with a hostile continental culture. Our sub-continental identities are inseparable from our Muslim identity. Our Indian values are no less evolved than any other community. Unlike European Muslims, we are not immigrants from another land. So, why should we be denied houses?
 
Educated Muslims often take up houses in ghettos for reasons of compulsion than choice. This affects their quality of life.
 
It is surprising that problems of born-again European Muslims are cropping up in India, where Hindus and Muslims have always experienced shared destinies.
 
Our constitution precludes any scope for institutional discrimination. We have never had anything like France’s laïcité.
 
I always believed that continental European Muslims should be envious of their Indian counterparts. But some Western irritants are creeping into our lives. Indian Muslims are now caught between a Left which wants right-wing Hindu nationalism pushed out of public life — but doesn’t mind Islam — and the Right that wants Islam pushed out of public life, while reinforcing Hindutva.
 
The French concept of laïcité that began as a complete separation of the Church and State has evolved to another extreme today. In July last year, France rejected citizenship rights to a Moroccan-origin woman who wears a burqa, citing her “radical” practice of Islam and her complete “submission” to her husband. Click here.
 
Hindutva, as opposed to Hinduism, could well turn out to be India’s laïcité. We don’t need laïcité here. Our goalposts of a secular, sovereign democratic republic had been well thought out by our founding fathers. Click here to read the Preamble.
 
We must be granted everything as individuals and as Muslims as long as we remain Indians. It is not desirable to legislate every aspect of an individual’s life. However, widespread cases of housing discrimination sometimes make me wonder if it is about time we regulated housing so that minorities get their share.
 
For instance, a new housing complex could have flats reserved for minorities, which should first be offered to them at market prices. Make no mistake. We are not talking of discounted housing or subsidies here. All we are saying is, give us a house. You will find Muslim buyers who will give you a better deal.

1 Star2 Stars3 Stars4 Stars5 Stars (21 votes, average: 3.86 out of 5)
Loading ... Loading ...
  • gopal

    In my younger days ,an old muslim man with white flowing beard used to visit our house frequently.He was for me a symbol of patience,love and compassion.Then I never thought of his religion.For me he was the grand father I always dreamt of.Today many of my best friends are muslims.But for reasons unknown and under the influence of dubious elements a section of muslims are fighting an immaginary enemy in our country.I just want to tell them to get rid of such apprehensions and not fall prey to pseudo secularists.Let us all live and enjoy life as human beings and INDIANS.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj

    typical muslim mentality… blame others for all worng and ill cause.

    [Reply]

    AKGURTOO Reply:

    wow. v pertinent. wait some more time &’ hashmi’ + ‘they call me muslim’ s types will clamour for next partition of this unfortunate country. Kashmir has been ethnically cleansed. Border areas along our east / west / north are proggresivly undergone a sea change due to migration / resettlement of muslims of various hues,& are heading for being muslim majority areas. Try electing a non muslim to any position in any areas with sizable muslim population. Just not possible. Islam is not a religion as we know religion. Islam is a very succesful socio-political system for colonising the world.

    [Reply]

    shekon Reply:

    The author has a typical “victim” mentality – as a landlord owning 10+ apartments in South Dehli – I have always allowed Muslims tenants at my place till 9/11. After 9/11 – my idea of a “good” Muslim gave way to the “PARASITE” Muslim.

    Any country Mohammedans go to, they create trouble. Lets talk about India.

    Muslims either need to integrate into mainstream “Hindu” India or go join Pakistan or their Arab masters in Middle East.

    India is a secular nation but with a HINDU ethos. If you want to live in a land with NO discrimination, I have a brilliant location : The Sahara Desert.
    Move there and then read namaz 5 times a day and be a sand nigger as you are called in the west.

    As a global Hindu from a Muslim pleasing nation which is a BIG failure since 1947 -( compared to China, Brazil etc ) – a lot of the blame in India’s lack of progress is with the 180 million parasites we endure on a daily basis.

    No nation can become a superpower when 18% of its population is living the life as a terminal parasitic infection.

    Educated muslims – please migrate to other nations from India. Back stabbers of the best lot.

    We have allowed you to flourish and prosper and now how dare you point fingers at the Hindus ?

    Get out of this nation – if you do not like it here !!

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    how much blood or cash have they sucked out of u?They are Indian citizens and u are no one to deny their claims to their rights,continue to feel wounded and cry coz we have all moved on inspite of all the allegations and counter allegations coz that’s what they are.If u cant live with others then u are welcome to be anti soicial and I hope u gain a lot from such a stand.

    Anil Reply:

    Not blood but Hidnu pilgrims do nto get free airticket to Kambodia Ankorwat temples why are muslim getitng that privilege..

    yes that money goes out of my pocket why shoudl i fund religious duty of muslims as a hindu

    amy Reply:

    ASk for it too but dont blame others for what they have;classical example of jelousy.Muslims too pay taxes but continue to live in filthy gettos .ref to sachar committee reprort for an update and refer to Tripathi Temple case.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Muslims don’t pay any taxes cause they are poor as per Sachar report. ;)

    amy Reply:

    Good even if that was documented but it doesnt change the facts. stop discrimnating others and stake ur own claims.

    Ziya Akhtar Dhar Reply:

    Absolutely. My father is a Kashmiri hindu and my mother a kashmiri muslim. Needless to say they both had fled the state before anyone could find out. And shortly after the rest of the kashmiri hindu’s were thrown out. No one wants to talk of the ethnic cleansing of kashmiri hindus. The fact is wherever muslims are in majority they want a separate land. And when they are not, they want their rights. Double standards within their own community between men and women and the same transpires with other religions.

    [Reply]

    Ansaruddin Rahimi Reply:

    I absolutely diagree the statement.
    There are ills and good in every human being. For misdeeds of some people you do not blame a religion. That is simply improper thinking even if you hold a highest post in a feild either PM, President or CEO of multi billion dallor company etc.
    Indiscrimination exists between people; for that point you dont blame a religions.

    [Reply]

  • Atul

    Dear Zia,

    Wrong choice of topic in my view.

    In our society, there is a certain amount of bias in every community that wants homogenity in its existence, whatever it may be. And if they feel that the new entrant will disrupt that, they will use every excuse available to deny the entrant.

    I have been refused accomodation for reasons as varied as my being a Punjabi, to my being from Delhi (I was on transfer) , to being a non vegetarian, and even to not being from a certain caste!! And wherever the local residents were not comfortable, they made us feel so.

    Granted that religious sentiment fans more ardour than the rest, but perhaps Mr Hashmi should park his ego somewhere else, and face the fact that even if he does manage to barge in, he will face hostitlity regularly.

    And one request – please spend some time in France with the Muslims and non Muslims to help you get a better perspective on the ground realities. It will really help your cause in arriving at a balanced view.

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    @Atul:

    ” I have been refused accomodation for reasons as varied as my being a Punjabi, to my being from Delhi (I was on transfer) , to being a non vegetarian, and even to not being from a certain caste!! And wherever the local residents were not comfortable, they made us feel so.”

    SO, HAVING ADMITTED THAT YOU FACED DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE YOU WERE A PUNJABI, DID YOU ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE ? IF THE ANSWER IS NO, THEN SPEAK OUT, RATHER THAN CONDONE AND MAKE IT THE NORM. THIS IS YOUR COUNTRY AND A DEMOCRATIC ONE AT THAT!

    [Reply]

    Sunny Reply:

    Zia,

    I am not sure if being in a democratic country means that every act of purchase/ sale must be completely indifferent to the identity of a person. I think democracy means that every one has an equal right to vote rather than equality in just everything. So, I fail to see your point when you say: “IF THE ANSWER IS NO, THEN SPEAK OUT, RATHER THAN CONDONE AND MAKE IT THE NORM. THIS IS YOUR COUNTRY AND A DEMOCRATIC ONE AT THAT!”. While social equality in all forms is desirable, you will know that many socities often have their own limits to absorb something foreign to them; and I believe this freedom to choose the extent of interaction they want with the foreign object is something the state need not interfere in. One reason why this kind of xenophobia exists is because the state is not too well in control of the situation. So, the stereotype of a Punjabi man: ‘drinks too much, daroo pee ke danga’ can’t be really opposed with the idea that the law will take care of it if he makes everyone else’s life miserable.

    For this reason, I think I should condone the act that Atul above has faced. Where it is a question of desperation (example: right to a earning a livelihood etc), the state would have a right to interfere, and the individual should protest. ‘Right to have a flat in the very location that you like without any bias from sellers’ does not sound like a fundamental right, atleast to me.

    Forgive me if I sound like I am trivializing this debate, but I find the point Hashmi raises similar to objecting to certain people not being friendly with you because you are from a particular caste, religion, and so on. Now, while this person’s complaint may be genuine, I am not sure if taking the matters to the court is such a wise/necessarry thing.

    Just to state matters formally: I am not against minorities in any manner.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Hi Sunny,

    I understand your point of view completely. Indeed its a good question whether going to court helps in removing prejudices at all, and the answer is probably not.

    On the other hand, I feel that given the current situation existing in the country with so much misunderstanding between muslims and hindus in particular, I feel that the most important thing is for people to know each other and mix. When seen in this context I feel this becomes a more serious situation than a one man issue, and hence I feel its good that he has spoken out so that at least the extent of the problem is known, and then maybe one can even think of ways of how to remove such biases.

    Atul Reply:

    @Sunny,

    Thank you for clarifying. I hope Zia understands the point, and we all need to move forward.

    @Zia

    From where I stand, I see with a tinge of sadness that this blog has become a boxing ring.

    Some of us are trying to support the the noble objective you have set, but perhaps that is getting buried in the tirades swarming this blog.

    You need to moderate, not react, else the plot will be lost.

    Good luck with your efforts.

  • ram

    Dear Ziabhai

    Please do not blame all social ills in India on Hindus. All communities have their quirks and cultural notions and sensitivities. How can beef eating Muslims stay with Hindus in the same society?
    1)Gau mata or Cow is holy for Hindus, whuile you eat beef which is against our religious sensitivities?

    2)Many Muslims owe their allegiance to Mecca rather than India is this fair?

    3)Pork is haram for Muslims ans so will they allow Pork eating Christians or others to live amidst them?

    4)Burkha is essentially not inherent tenet of Islam but other religions in India are nto confortable as it represents violent Jihadi Islam of Pakistani/Saudi militant variety like Lashkar E Toiba which are fundamentalist, hardline and antiHindu with awowed objectie to destroy Hinduism. So are yoiu willing to moderate your beliefs for Hindu sentimetns, then only your article is justified.

    5)Comapres to pakistand and Middle Eastern terror exporting states India is a haven for all religions

    Also let me add that I am a Hindu and was educated in Saboo Siddik a minority institution and graduated with Engineering Degree in 1989. So i am well aware of cultural sensitivities. Majority of them were Muslims and I had no problem interacting with them and are still my good friends today. I respect their cultural sensitivities and some were from UP, Bihar while others from Konkan coast of Maharashtra. As rightly mentioned they are very different in culture even though their religion might be the same. So it does not make sense to label them as Muslims and Hindus as thay are all modern Indians with unique and beautiful culture depending on their home base in dioffernt parts of India. I know some who are Muslim lady doctors, thorough professionsls in hospitals but still wear burqa in public. Out schools. colleges and universities are the places Indians should celebrate common culture and Indian identity freely rather blame each other.

    Ghettos are first in our minds and weak Indian Hindu and Muslim leaders exploit religious sentiments for personal gains.

    Educated and articulate journalists like yourself play a very important role in nation building for all Indians and in fact fight decadents like Emran Hashmi who are inflaming religious passions for the wrong reasons. I admire your columns especially as they relect common vision to build strong and

    Let us unite in common national interest instead of nitpicking on minor issues especially when we are faced with Terrorists from eternal enemy Great Evil Terrorist Pakistan (under USA and Chinese umbrella) and Maoist menace internally. .

    Jai Hind

    Ram
    Singapore

    [Reply]

    Amit Julka Reply:

    Wonderful post Mr.Zia…Another thing I have noticed is that this ‘communal’ mentality is more rampant in the so called educated ‘upper’ classes rather than the so called ‘lower’ ones(I don’t recall any slums being communally biased)….

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    True!
    Read Vikram Chandra’s Sacred games where the Mumbai city’s underbelly is depicted.. Muslim ganglords with Hindu, loyal henchmen and vice versa..

    [Reply]

    Tinku Reply:

    Dear Zia, Please reform Islam, Please reform Islamist countries to allow building temples, churches, synagogues, pagodas etc. in those countries in the Middle East. Please teach them human values to see all people including non-muslims with the same respect and greet them with “peace be upon you”. Let non-muslims buy houses in those countries and live in peace with their peaceful!!! Muslim neighbors. Let Afghanistan, where Islam is applicable in its full measure, be made secure for all people including muslims and non-muslims. May you better go for a vacation trip to Afghanistan and never come back… before preaching that Reform is an Islamic process. Where would that type of reform lead that Islamists only know… to heaven with 72 virgins…after death by a roadside bomb. Don’t live in denial…leave Islam…if you really want to refrom…beacause reform will lead you out of it…please try hard.

    [Reply]

    D10 Reply:

    What you have written about appears to be a reality (I say appears because I do not belong to the minority community so I can’t claim to have experienced this kind of discrimination first hand). There are very few Muslims who I know who do not live in predominantly Muslim areas. Most of those who are living in ‘Hindu’ areas or more ‘posh’ and ‘respectable’ areas of town are the types who have had ancestral houses there for years. It seems that only the power of money can trump this kind of prejudice. I know of a Muslim family who recently bought a house in a very posh area at virtually double the market rate. I doubt they would have got the same house at the normal rate!

    Strangely however I suspect that this discrimination does not come from builders or brokers themselves. They are usually unconcerned with the religion (or any attribute other than money for that matter!) of the potential buyer or tenant. It is usually when an individual is letting out his house to a tenant that they consider religion as a factor. The roots of this I feel are age-old prejudices perpetuated by years of misinformation and lack of contact between the communities. I have heard my own relatives denying houses to Muslim tenants, saying that ‘woh ghar ganda kar denge… pata nahin kya kya karenge ghar mein’! In fact it seems that for some incomprehensible reason houses which have housed Muslim tenants even attract lower rents from subsequent tenants if the fact of the Muslim tenants ‘gets out’!

    I’m not sure that the solution to this lies in any sort of ‘arrangement’ like you propose. Maybe some societies could do that on their own accord. The main problem is the lack of confidence and interaction between communities and the hundreds of misconceptions about each other between them. There is no overnight solution to this. One can only hope that some of these suspicious attitudes could be cured with time and more intermingling.

    [Reply]

    Abhijit Guha Reply:

    Mr. Zia knows very well that India is secular because non muslims (forget whether its hindus or christians) are a majority. The day muslims become 70/75% in total numbers Mr. Zia’s co religionists will declare India a Islamic nation. In those days Mr. Zia will never ever dare to write in his column that India should be a secular nation. He will be prosecuted for insulting islam. He knows that very well even now.

    [Reply]

    S Reply:

    Beef Eating : i am soory i will be offending some peole over here, but has any one read any Hindu Scriputures , just google Beef & Hindus eating it, You will get lots of religious text supporting Beff for Hindus from Vedas etc.Sorry no offence meant.

    Allegiance :- you are in singapore , were is your allegiance, all hindus in America , UK , Europe
    & citizens of that country , were is their allegiance according to you.What about danish kaneria , pakistani bowler , were his allegiance should be.India or Pakistan which is his homeland??

    Prok :- Many people eat prok ,no muslim will have aproble with him, prok is sold in Dubai malls,
    A muslim will not eat one, & would not like to live were pigs are reared. this might be a problem for people like you, it’s not for muslim, we dont eat, we dont rear the, but we don’t have aproble with living someone who eats one. I had dinner with friend whom drink, but i dont,i live were some people certainly drink & i dont have a proble.

    Burkha :- why should i , there is not anything illegal inwearing Burkha, muslims don’t eat beff, ther are many fatwas for it from deoband, to respect the sentiment of fellow neghibours , i dont see aproblem with that. What is your problem with that.?????????you are a bigot , nothing more.

    Heaven :- People living in Singapore did not make india a heaven, i & my parenrts & my neghibours made it heaven.Do you know ther are 170 million muslims in Inda, Second largest no: of muslims after Indonesia.Just imagine if only half of these people pick up weapons what
    will happen?? India is a heaven because both Hindus & Muslims & every other community is trying to make it a heaven.

    You studied in a minority instituion , & u still have such biogted views, I studied in in school were i was the only muslim, college (engineer like u)i was the only muslim in 14-16 friends.I wanted i could also have developed such views for fellow hindus,but it’s because of my friends & my parents i am not like you.

    Grow up man!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

    Aniket Reply:

    @Ashish,

    Of course there are Hindus who have done and are doing their bit for minorities’ rights in this country, but I still tend to agree with Mr. Zia … truly liberal Hindus, though still some years away from being a dying breed, are certainly fewer in number today than say 5-10 years back.

    I find this especially prominent when something like 26/11 or even the unrest in Jammu & Kashmir over the Amarnath Land dispute sparks off debates. All of a sudden you find your average middle class next door neighbour cursing muslims for everything that is wrong in this country.

    What is most disturbing is that this trend is very visible amongst the younger folks. I remember a friend in college giving me a an incredulous look that soon changed to one of absolute disgust when he found out that my ex-girlfriend was muslim (I think his exact words were, “How could you let yourself fall for a muslim girl da?”) …. here was a guy who grew up in a small town in interior tamil nadu … probably had no meaningful interaction with a muslim ever … but still had a deep-rooted distrust of any and every muslim … Hell, half of the comments on this blog suggest a deep-rooted distrust of all things muslim …

    And as far as the Pan-Islamic identity over the national identity goes, isn’t something of the sort true for Judaism as well? Hindus of course don’t have much of a choice in this matter seeing as how most of them are in India, but you do see something of a larger identity crop up whenever the issue of tamilians in Lanka comes up. As far as I remember, there has not been a mainstream Indian muslim political leader in recent years who has threatened violence and secession like Mr. Vaiko did … and yet it is the muslims we ask to prove their loyalty and not Mr. Vaiko and his ilk. Something to consider?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    What if the God himself of one particular community preach hatred for other communities.

    You need to read quran, The words of Allah. You can listen to islamic teaching from Dr. Zakir Naik. these are available on youtube.

    All your queries will get appropriate reply from there.

    Whoever will come to know of what is written in quran for other communities will always prefer to be on defensive against this cult of violence.

    Aniket Reply:

    Sanjeev,

    I’m not the least bit interested in what the Quran has to say. Besides, even if it does “preach hatred”, I don’t see that as reason enough to discriminate against all muslims. It is not a rule that every muslim follows the most hard-line interpretation of the Quran there is.

    As for your list of things that “zia must write a blog entry for”,

    Aside from the issue of Kashmiri Pandits (which noone in their right minds would try to justify or condone), what does any of the other points have to do with Indians facing discrimination in their own country? Why is it that we always try to justify discrimination against Indian muslims by listing out irrelevant facts about Islamic countries? If you’re trying to hint at the larger Pan-Islamic identity that transcends national identity, like Ashish did, I’ve already made clear my misgivings about the whole concept.

    And if you’re trying to say that because some muslims in other corners of the world ill-treat non-muslims, we can ill-treat them here, well then you’re just justifying the actions of a terrorist who claims to “avenge what happened in Gujarat” etc etc …

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Aniket,

    You will be wasting your time discussing anything with Sanjeev. He is a first rate crackpot.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    What are you? A first rate closet terrorism sympathiser.

    Sid Reply:

    @Aniket,

    Here you liberals go again.
    “But, suppose there is a Muslim tolerant enough to not have a problem with his neighbour eating pork or worshipping a million different gods. What would you suggest his neighbour do then?” – yes, you and we can very well suppose. Yes, then nobody should have a problem, but are you suggesting a certification program for every body in every community? I am supposing the opposite. What then? Bring me a statistics. How many of them do not have a problem with pork? Your entire response sounds as a big as-if. I have seen some Hindus who do not mind eating beef, I have not seen a muslim yet who eats pork. Yes, bring me a stats please.
    “this btw, is hands down the most ridiculous argument I’ve heard or read” – yes, that definitely looks rediculous to you. So does all the bomb blasts and the bodies of the civilians. The dead soldiers of kirgil and dead commaondos in Mumbai 26/11 looks rediculous too unless your own family member is one of them. Hey, was not there an organization called “Indian Mujahideen”? Was not there another organization called SIMI that was so peace loving? Were they foreign organization? No, those organizations were born here. Yes, SIMI was created long before Babri demolition in an University campus that is, my dear Aniket, funded by your and my tax money. So what about the argument that a SIMI member is one of your neighbours? He will be your neighbour, he can not do harm to you, can he? The five Indian muslims wo conspired with LeT before Mumbai 26/11 were somebody’s neighbours too. I am sure that is a news to you.
    I do not give a damn how many seats where own by Muslim League. in 1937. I am today’s citizen. 160+ people died in Mumbai 26/11 and a sitting congress MP and a cabinet minister have the audacity of insulting the dead by saying that this is all a Hindu conspiracy and got away with it. No prize for guessing that man’s religeon. It can happen only because we are cowards. We have a history of getting slapped and then turn the other cheeks. And we have a history of having people like you who are deranged enough to call an enemy a friend.
    “@ Bobby – you’re right. I’m starting to see the futility of this.” – classic liberal argument. “You can not see what we can see and hence we are a better and more intelligent human than you bigots!!!!” – is that your argument ultimately? I would not be surprised but I am refusing to be bullied by this, because we have had ENOUGH.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Even 100s of 26/11 can not make muslims and their sympathisers see the truth.

    It is time these fools are made irrelevant and India becomes a county that ensures equality for all.

    Amy Reply:

    Ensures equality for all,who is all?What kind of equality?

    Amit Reply:

    Rajeev,
    Is Sanjeev your judwa brother.? Cool down man or join the territorial army and fight those rascals on the border. Do it brother!

    Rajeev Reply:

    My family has tradition of sending one son to Army so no preaching here.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Equality means real equality. We are ready to treat muslims as EQUALS (which is beyond your Islamic understanding).

    amy Reply:

    Exactly how ? what is ‘real equality ‘dont let me explain it to u coz it will go over ur head belive me.U hate muslims which explains the treatment and denial of discrimination or justice and the non existence of a core values or a system.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I choose to ignore fundoos like you.

    Nothing can get trhu your rotten brain (effect of Quran).

    Get a life.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Aniket,
    Just came back after a leisurely afternoon lunch with a family friend who lives in a 100% Muslim neighbourhood (ah, the kebabs, but I digress)…
    This lady, a Kashmiri Muslim colleague of my wife, shifted out of the Jamia area about six months back. I can tell you, no one on this blog can match her “prejudice” about those “bearded ones” who made her life miserable. She nearly had a nervous breakdown, what with being asked everyday why her daughters (9 and 11) wear skirts, why she does not wear a burqua and so on. She thinks the entire Jamia area is full of “fanatics” and wishes it is cleaned up, and soon.
    She is highly qualified, a doctor.

    Let’s not digress into Judaism.
    I maintain pan-Islamism is a problem; I am not alone. There are several very learned Muslim scholars who say so. Please note my question 4, why not Muslim Indian or Muslim Englishmen? Why only Indian Muslims or British Muslims?
    Your comment about Tamil/ Vaiko blah .. is very weak logic. Vaiko does not invoke Hindu identity, crackpot that he is; he invokes Tamil identity.
    And, mainstream Muslim leader? Name one. Does not exist. Again, I don’t say this; most Muslim commentators do. Read Kaleem Kawaja or Mohib Ahmad for a start.

    Ashish Reply:

    @ S
    Calm down, sir!
    Surely you know you are among a very minuscule minority who holds such liberal views.
    Pan-Islamism is far more widespread than Pan-Hinduism; if you do not agree, let’s just agree to disagree.
    I have to agree that folks living outside India tend to have rather extreme views on “how India’s problems can be solved”; but, it is not just them! Remember Lee Kuan Yew had some very complimentary and entirely gratuitous things to share about Australians?

    Now, as for the “bigot” charge that you level on Ram:
    Please visit some mainstream Muslim blogs; not extreme ones, very reasonable and reasoned ones.. guess you can find many.
    Find any article condemning Dr. Zakir Naik. There will be some. Now, go to the comments section. I can assure you that a majority of the comments will be extremely critical of the blog author for daring to criticize Dr. Naik.
    The number of Hindu defenders of the Muslim identity, presence, way of life.. etc is way higher,sir as a percentage of their population compared with the Muslims who dare to acknowledge that there could be any problem within their community. In fact, I have been labeled a “masked” rabble-rouser, Hindu communalist many times. So, as you see, our standards of defining a Hindu liberal is very high!

    Ram is not a bigot; he is voicing questions which can come to you depending on who you have interacted with; as I pointed out earlier, if his “sample” included the likes of those well educated folks, defending Dr Naik in blogs, because “I think he is doing fantastic work spreading Allah’s message” (seriously, go check them out), he will have such views.

    S, don’t think you are “just an average guy”. I really liked your passion when you declare that “we, my parents, my neighbours and I made India heaven”. Just don’t shut your eyes to the problems within.

    [Reply]

    S Reply:

    Sir, i understand what you are trying to say,

    Dr Zakir Naik :- There are two aspects of him, I can tell you coz i used to watch his programme, but i now don’t.

    First :- Most of the time what he speaks about Islam & it’s concept, he speaks with authority, & with original sources of Islam(ie, Quran , Hadith, Sunna : in that order.)As a muslim i can have diff. with him about some theological interprattion about Islam, but generally i dont disagree with him in those matters.

    Second : i know many non-muslims diagree with him, or shall i say hate him.You have every right to have your views but i have not seen any substantial body of work which challenge him in what he says,logically & scientifcally in matter of our understanding of Religion of Islam & Hinduism.You have to enlighten me “WHY” he is wrong, that’s your job.you will be doing a service to me & to every body else.As they say Satya Maev Jayta.

    third : There are some of his views , which i very very strongly diagree with,& i have stopped watching him for that reason.Besied those reasons i have never seen some one give me a very good reason ,his other body of work being wrong.

    Every one is human, understand the dynamics working over here :- muslims have been talked down since 1947(some times our own mistakes & some time not.)(Poverty, illetracy,women issues etc,in matters of religion).He & some other people are challenging that & they are praised for that.(Self-Confidence)

    One small question, go ask a muslim wether he supports building of relgious places in purley muslim countires(except saudi Arabia there are some reason why some people will never approve of it) for othere minorites.I dont belive anyone will say no, some may but large majority will say ,they dont have a problem.But Zakir Naik does not support this position.And his answer is very illogical(i would have a used another word but moderators!!).(Other reasons , fear of wetern meddeling in affairs , christianity is assocated with west)

    Every one supporting him does not support his every view.

    ————————-X——————–

    I want to agree with you on that , % more, hope it does not decrease & our increse, Patience!!

    ———————–X————————-

    Ram Comment :- i gave a reply to Ram comment , which was logical,rasonable, and pretty factual(I would like to believe, unless some one changes my views.)

    Were is the answer to those?????????

    Sorry i am being confrontational now, but those views by ram(comment) , need to be challenged by facts.I am waiting to see a resonable answer.I will happily accept i am wrong, if you can show it to me.

    Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.”(Quran 17:80-81) ,

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Mr. S

    You were worried of offending some hindu on account of your referring to the sanction in hindu religious books for eating beef. As far as I can see, nobody seems to be offended at least till now, although we have a large no of people here who fit the secular definition of Hindu Bigots.

    And this might be important. Why? B’coz it shows that for Hindus their religious texts have only as much important as is in line with their current beliefs and value system. So the religious books have said many things which may not be followed by Hindus. And that does not make them “less hindu”.

    This is why any attempt to quote our religious books to prove how bad Hinduism is , is irrelevant and a waste of time. Of course this is not to say that Hindus are not clinging to some ugly practices originating from their scriptures. But by and large, this clinging is less to do with their fear (or desire) of not following their scriptures, but more due societal realities and their upbringing.

    For example, if someone from what was classified as untouchable caste, happened to be your colleague , I doubt that you would practice untouchability with him, but if that guy was working as a toilet cleaner , untouchability would be practiced. Although it might not be very common to see high caste Hindus working as a toilet cleaner, but if there was one, I would doubt that he would be treated differently than one belonging to untouchable class. This is not to justify the practice of untouchability, but to show that today, it has less to do with what was written in Manusmriti.

    [Reply]

    S Reply:

    hi SKS, i said i am sorry i might be offending some people,

    I know it’s a sensitive topic for Hindus, & for a muslim to comment on it. I just wanted to make sure my intentions were not misunderstood.(Many are not like u, i know many who will be offended by it, that’s why i made an extra effort )

    Were did i say Hinduism is bad, please point out…….I request you to read Ram’s(comment )
    , that was the reason why initially commented, & what ever i pointed out was facts.

    I really don’t know why u said, I belive Hinduism is bad…..(I never did nor intend to do)

    Why i quoted from hinduism religious book, was to show ram(comment) what hinduism says.It was people like him who belive beef eating or even non-veg eating is such bad habit, that you can discriminate against such people or demean them.

    His comment clearley implied his hate towards muslims , & the chief reason for this hate was beef.I just wanted to show him what Hinduism Holy Book’s (Upnishad & Vedas say), & ask him whether he also hates his fellow co-religoinist.(this was not to demean Hinduism, if any one felt offended, i sincearley appologise)

    there are many deoband fatwas against beef eating , as a sign of respect of Hindus religious belifes.

    Dalilam eats beef, (again goolge it)
    Kerela & other south India states many Hindus do eat beef.
    Kashmiri Pandits certainly eat meat,(but i am not sure about beef)

    Shiuli Mukherji Reply:

    Mr.Ram,

    Salam!
    A very thought full reply, which I think has addressed the element of dispute- Religion.
    To me religion is a dress-code. And the current stance by a celebrity to mark that difference and play for his selfish goal should not be given due weight age by media personalities.

    If Indian media shows a bit of concern and intelligence, media mileage for such issues , can be limited and the play to ignite the spark later by politicians can be curbed.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    one more

    1. why non muslims can’t visit mecca ?

    These are worst forms of discrimination based on religion.

    Devote time on theseinstead of Hashmi. he is a celebrity he may be making a statement out of publicity stunt. He can live in many other localities.

    But these issues have threatened the very life of people in these regions

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have asked same questions to Pakistanis. According to them Mecca is kind of Army camp of Islam and how can anyone allow enemies (read non-muslims, kafir) to enter their military camp.

    They have diabolical logic when you ask them these tough question.

    I am of the opinion that Hindus should allow rebuilding Babri provided muslims allow a temple within kabaa complex or within Mecca.

    Let us see how so-called liberal like Zia react to this suggestion.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Rajeev,

    what will you do with a temple in Mecca? Who will run it? For whom? And above all who will visit it? It’s an entirely Arab country! Also, your agenda to build a temple in a predominantly theocratic non-democratic Muslim country, over which no other country has any control, is so so futile. You should try and build a temple in the Vatican too? Ooops, why am I even answering your laughable provocations!! Cool down Rajeev, give me a big hug!! We are sons of the same soil.

    Mitra Reply:

    What a cool reply, Zia! Please keep up all the good work! We are all Indians, we need to fight together to build a more tolerant country- maybe it won’t happen tomorrow, but if we give it our best we will succeed and our children will live in a society where no one will be judged by their last name. You got the hug from me!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Why do muslim want mosque in Ayodhya as Ayodhya has no significance for Islam?

    If a temple is built next to Kaaba, Indians living in Saudi will visit it even hindus from India may visit it.

    Why is Saudi muslim land and India is not hindu land.

    Your kind of muslim apologist keep inventing excuses for Islamic double standard.

    I’ll hug you as Indian but the minute you start asserting your MUSLIM identity, you will a communal bigot for me.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Mitra,
    Your kind of fools provide continuous oxygen to muslim apologist like Zia.

    These people simply don’t want to treat non-muslims as equals in muslim majority country.

    Did Zia even once try to say that Saudis are Islamic nuts who deny right to worship for non-muslims in in PRIVATE? If these non-muslims pray in PRIVATE they can be punished user Saudi law.

    How can these muslims even demand equality on non-muslim countries? They reek of double standards.

    Oops who am I trying to explain? A closet muslim fundamentalist and a stupid Indian Hindu.

    Rajeev Reply:

    If you are honest, try to reply question seriously. I have seen muslim using humor to duck difficult question. Pl. show me one MUSLIM majority country that treats its non-muslims as EQUAL (except for erstwhile Iraq under Saddam).

    srini Reply:

    Mr. Zia is conveniently silent when some questions were asked. Some one asked him whether he disapproves Saudi Arabia and other muslim majority countries not allowing any rights for minorities. He is silent on that.

    The pretext that as an Indian I will talk only about Indian Muslims, doesn’t hold good. When he can write about Israel, he can write about Saudi Arabia also. As a journalist he should respond to such questions which increases his credibility as a liberal Indian. Otherwise he should be treated as another sugar coated muslim fundamentalist.

    amy Reply:

    Cleaning up is easy for the muslims but who will clean up the minds of people like u, Im sure even if ur invited u wont go.Continue to divide and belive u rule!

    Anil Reply:

    If cleanign up is easy then why have not you doen this..

    Heck go to britain go to USa go to europe everyhwere save victimization bogey gets raised.. Under same set of law non muslim immigrants are doign fine but when ti comes to muslims even there they create a ghetto.. There is ghetto in france there is ghetto in britain .. ther eis ghetto in usa canada everywhere..

    amy Reply:

    And there is getto in India, Muslims want to feel safe just as Hindu want to in their localities is the real reason .

    Sid Reply:

    @Amy,
    1.”The measure of a nation’s strenght is not military today” – who is the genious who taught you this? And the supporting facts are….?
    2. “what I claim is documented ” – who did this documentation and when? UN still believes India and pakistan are existing states. International communities are not bothered with safety of Indian or Pakistani nationals, they are just bothered with export of terrorism. Hence despite having leadership of both the countries assigning low priorities to the lives of their people Pakistan is said to be approaching a failed status. But both the countries consistently failed to protect it’s people.
    3. “It is playing an assretive role on world arena and our voice is heard and headed ” – I am a part of this educated work force. In my experience we are nothing better than cost arbitrators, we have consistently failed to travel up the value chain and our domestic market does not have enough demand to keep up the supply. Indian financial policy makers have demonstrated constant unwillingness to create a big enough domestic market that can supply jobs. The technical competence of Indian companies are not good enough to pick up projects even in the domestic market where MNC rivals like IBM beats them continuously (try some facts from the newspaper, will you?).
    4. The concept of India with “self-sufficieny” is laughable at best. This is a country whose fiscal deficit is 10 percent of it’s GDP. I am a nationalist myself, I want to see my country to be glorious. The difference is, to achieve this, I believe, we need to be strong, proserous and assertive. We are neither of these. We need to be hard working and our policies should be good enough to allow us to direct our labour towards our country, not some American company. If you want to counter this, bring me some stats and facts, not rhetoric.
    5. “You sound apologitic of its sucess” – I wish there is some success to ask the appology for. Not that I want any kind of appology for India’s success. Once again, I want my country to be strong and prosperous, not so weak that LeT enters and slaps and we would say “Ok, the other cheek is not touched yet.”
    6. “The leaders mentioned are never termed Indian traitors either except by u” – hang on here. Read some history. Ok, at least try Wikipedia, will you? I am not a fool registered with VHP. I have some knowledge and unlike you I do comment on the things I know.
    7. “Are Indian Muslims left back for u to critisise and satisfy ur disguist, anger frustrations for the actions of Pakistani” – let us get back to some logic mate. Who are Indian muslims? People who are complicit in breaking my motherland (give me a single muslim leader who protested the partition) yet did not leave their land when so-called “dar-ul-islam” was created because they knew we non muslims can not shed our characteristic what former ISI chief Hamid Gul called “Buzhdili”. They did not leave because we were not courageous enough to ask the reason of not leaving and not going to their holy land (try to understand the meaning of Pakistan in urdu).
    This is how they became Indian. This was ok and in 2009 I would not have a problem with this until I came to know the existence of SIMI, Indian Mujahideen and countless others whose documented goal is to islamicise India. It is not unreasonable to assume that a section of this population treats us as a Kaphir and acts as a fifth column in India. Yes, I understand that I can not blame the whole community for this section of people but I need to know the names of Indian Imams or any muslim politicians who declared a fatwa against these Jihadis or condemned the jihadis (if you do not like fatwa). You would not find any names. If you can not find any name then you have to assume that entire community is complicit in these barbaric acts of treason. There were five Indian muslims associated with Mumbai 26/11.
    One leader claimed Mumbai 26/11 to be act of Hindu extremists. This is the best they can do to the grief-stricken families. Another example of the so-called loyalty towards India when you will see India-Pakistan match with Muslims. One muslim reader in this forum recently accused Hindu community for muslim’s backwardness, as if Muslims are very advanced in every other country where Hindus do not exist. But these people do not know any better, leaders and imams taught them this message of peace ever since they started the conversion.
    But then whom am I talking to? You guys would believe rhetoric because facts now-a-days have a strong tendency to be biased towards your opposing view point. If you can deal with facts then we can discuss more, otherwise do not bother replying.

    Rajeev Reply:

    These techniques that Zia uses are precribed in Quran.

    Is Islam a religion or political ideology like communism?

    sanjeev Reply:

    its a political, imperialistic movement. It makes me laugh when someone call it a religion.
    The words of god is actually “military manual”.

    Rajeev Reply:

    A god that is obsessed with number of wives and prayers while relieving yourself must be nut.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Try reading hadiths. It is full of ****.
    It even has special prayer for muslims when they go to loo.

    It says-
    1. Tilt a little to left.
    2. When poop comes out say dua “O Allah, Thanks for relieving from filth”.

    sanjeev Reply:

    ha ha ha

    amy Reply:

    Haa ha what jokers u both are, ultimate display of dignity,filth,knowledge,talent for distaste and disgust,ur hired!!!Ha Ha to be the most nonsensenscal jokers of this blog!!!Dont dissapoint us or u could be fired and /on failing to deliver volcanic anger hatred ,we know ur press buttons dont worry ha ha….
    We dont give breaks or leave ,payment is the joy u spread enlightening so many people about urself and the shame u bring to urself…

    Sid Reply:

    @Bobby
    Here is the excerpt from the reported article:
    “Asked about the leaked contents of the report, the SIT chief, R. K. Raghavan told Hindustan Times that he could not confirm whether the leaked contents were true.” – He did not confirm anything. Neither the positive nor the negative. In fact, he is bound to the court, he can not. What does it prove? HT reporter gleefully wrote a title that obviously he and his editor liked, it does not matter if the standard of journalism goes to hell.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Report-based-on-SIT-findings/articleshow/4407437.cms

    Here the reporter defends his news in TOI site with more details.

    Your person of integrity got this rebuttal from Gujrat HC once:
    Gujarat High Court has said in its judgment, “It appears that attempt is being made by journalist/human right activist and advocates Teesta Setalvad and Mihir Desai to have a parallel investigation. We do not know how far it is proper but we can state that it is not permissible under law.’’
    One thing I have understood in our interaction is that a “secular” (or are you the “muslim-and-thus-I-am-secular-victim” variety) nuthead like you can not be convinced with anything. Thus the above information was given for other readers to make their independent decisions.
    The story does not end here. Here is one more lesser known fact (I know the facts that does not conform to your belief system is not liked by likes of you):
    In September 1998 two nuns were raped in Zabua, MP; before the probe, Teesta blamed Hindus for the rape in her article in a site called “sabrang.com” in October 1998. After the probe, it was found that
    the rapists were all Christians. She did not ask for any appology.
    Your person of integrity does the same thing that you were accusing me in my last post. Pretty good point of integrity, nuthead?

    Rajeev Reply:

    fundoo going crazy….I guess she has nothing else to do.

    Amy Reply:

    You actually believe anything told to u by a pakistani as authentic.Lol!!!Your very trusting of ur enemy I must say ha ha. Just as you have certain temples that dont allow non belivers to enter or for that matter in some cases even Hindus coz they are dalits to pollute the sanctity of the place so do other religions.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Amna,
    This skirting the real issue does not convince anyone.
    You muslims have one mind, your behaviours are different depending on situation.

    So stop kidding urself.

    Amy Reply:

    Why dident America go to serach for weapons of mass destruction to Mecca?

    Amy Reply:

    For all I know there is a lot of oil and gold, did u?

    Rajeev Reply:

    US is not the benchmark of morality.

    amy Reply:

    and neither are u, Now do u understand the fact that if religious places are not open to all for certain reasons ,u coundent defend urself.

    Amy Reply:

    Alas ! What a shame when the point is missed,its not the star but the discrimination faced,agreed not necessarily by muslims alone even caste is used to deter and built colonies of Brahmins, Dalits etc in many cities ,but it exists and needs highlighted by the media before remidied.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @S
    We are all fools/ infidels. Waiting to be saved by Zakir Naik’s Dawah.
    More fool for letting freedom of expression run riot.
    “If Osama is terrorising the terrorists, I am with them. So long as you are following the Quran, I am with them”
    So long as the so called liberals in the media and the blogosphere exist, your tribe will prosper.
    I misunderstood you.
    YOUR KIND SICKENS ME.

    amy Reply:

    what are u talking about-nonsense esp response to my post!

    S Reply:

    Hi Ashish,

    We all know politics , you & i .

    As i said , i dont agree with every thing that Dr. Zakir Naik says, what about the rest.

    Your Kind Sickens Me :- Pretty strong words,

    just one word from me LK Advani , Uma Bharthi, Sadhvi Rithambra:- What do you think of them, Do they also sicken you as strongly as Zakir Naik..

  • Ashish

    Emraan Hashmi may or may not have a case but, to the main point of the blog, yes, I have seen that Muslims generally find it more difficult to get housing in Delhi forcing them to live in ghettos. This is probably going to self-perpetuate a vicious cycle.
    @Ram, in Singapore, the government makes it mandatory for all HDB apartment blocks to be mixed in a racial proportion: so many Indians, so many Chinese, so many Malays and so on. While I am not a fan of the “control freak” Singaporeans, probably this is what we need to head to in India as well.
    In Singapore, can you choose your neighbours to be vegetarians? Just try. Or, do you not shop in Mustafa for the early morning shipment of fresh veggies from Chennai? Mustafa sells beef. Problems?
    In Hong Kong, on other hand, no one understands what Halal is :-) not that I cared; but, for my Muslim visitors, it was traumatic. Also, in Bangkok, the capital of a country with large Muslim minority, hunting for Halal food is tough.
    As a Bengali Hindu who has traveled quite a bit, I can share several examples of being denied accommodation in Chennai or being offerred accommodation only if I promise never to cook in the house. How stupid is that? This was Adyar; by no means Mylapore which you can understand being the heart of Tam brahm existence. Ten years back, the only places in Bangalore where it was easy to get acco for a “renegade” Hindu were the Fraser Town, Cox Town, Victoria Layout areas. Jayanagar was tough.
    When we moved to Delhi in late seventies, we had no trouble finding accos as Bengalis (and Tamilians) I am told were model tenants; paid up in time and vacated when asked to. In our case, it was truly the case of “meek inheriting the earth”.
    Go to Mumbai and try getting accommodation in some identified pockets of Marathi brahmin localities; if you are a meat eater, you have a problem. There was a time, when entire areas did not have a single meat shop in Mumbai; cultural sensibilities? Gimme a break, man.
    Integration on all fronts is the solution. Building walled gradens in the name of cultural identities is a bad idea. Both Hindus and Muslims must share space; our children must get the same education (real education which prepares them for a productive economic existence) and in the same schools. And a little lower dose of religion (easy for me, I am a non-believer) would help all around.

    However, as Zia mourns the “death of Hindu liberalism”, I ask him to consider:
    1. all the prominent human rights activists fighting for Muslim rights in India are Hindus.
    2. all the significant socio-economic interventions like forcing the banks to loan to minorities are coming from Hindus.
    3. And, the best part is, if you ask Ashish Nandy or Teesta Setalvad or the government functionaries who gave teeth to the government’s intentions to economically empower the minorities.. they do not label themselves as Hindus.. what if they did? And, we started keeping score of what the Hindus have done for Muslims vs what the Muslims have done for themselves?
    4. Consider: it is always Indian Muslims or British Muslims or European Muslims. Ever paused to consider if you should call yourself Muslim Indians, or Muslim Europeans?
    This larger pan-Islamic identity, is off-putting, alienating and perhaps even threatening. Again, upto you. But, for how long?

    [Reply]

  • Indian

    I think someone else has also mentioned this above. But not getting accomadation is for various reasons – sometimes on account of eating habits, sometimes because of language, sometimes on account of religion, sometimes on account of one being married vs bachelor or spinster, sometimes because of profession (film crowd finds it more difficult). Therefore, to view this purely and only from the point of religion is not correct and we should not have a communal world view on all issues.

    I know of a friend who is a tam bram (someone mentioned above), who never drank, was pure vegetarian, highly qualified, with no tantrums. Generally speaking an ideal tenent / buyer as mentioned earlier. But he was refused housing 3 times for three different reasons. Once because he was a bachelor, once because of religion (yes, a hindu tam bram did not get housing because of religion) and once because he did not come from a particular state (language). So, it is important to understand that it is not only because of religion.

    Humans like to have their “comfort” factor as they view it and at times people like to live with “their” own ilk – defined on language, community, eating habits, etc. Birds of the same feather flock together is a saying completely applicable. So not everything is because of a strong hateful prejudice and often more to do with comfort factor.

    [Reply]

    Alok Jha Reply:

    Hello Everyone

    I just sHello Everyone

    I just stumbled on this discussion. As a Government employed doctor in the province of Gujarat along with my best friend (a Muslim), my experiences were as follows

    1. No one was willing to give us house to rent as, either the landlord was Hindu or Muslim and one of us got objected to
    2. No one would give us house because we were bachelors.
    3. Since we ate meat we were disqualified anyway.

    The place and people were pathetic, my hindu staff intigated me to disown my friend, my poor friend suffered the same. Having lived most of my life in Delhi I had absolutely no concept of these things.

    Ultimately we fled, giving up our jobs. When we heard of the riots a few years later we looked at each other and shook our heads, it had coming …………….we had known it.

    [Reply]

    xpx Reply:

    @ alok jha

    It seems you live in a world of imagination.

    Have you ever thought why people are behaving so towards one particular community from east to west (not to sikhs, jains, christians, budhist )?

    Have you ever read quran ?
    Please go through it and see for yourself what it says about non-believers of Allah ? there god himself preach hatred towards other communities. This hatred is taught in madrsas.

    [Reply]

  • Pratik

    I don’t think Hindu or more generally, Indian liberalism is dead: true, it’s been beaten back somewhat with trishuls and swords and accusations of “pseudo-secularism” hurled at us. But we are around and fighting back to reclaim our space in the Great Indian Dialogue. We also admit that the incredibly eloquent word, “pseudo-secularism”, has put us at a brand disadvantage. We are toying with “psuedo-Hinduism” to describe the Hindutva Brigade version of politics, which thankfully is unrepresentative of the vast majority of true and tolerant Hindus in this land. But since we believe in a tolerant and just society for all, we promise to “just about tolerate” those who espouse Hindutva and we consider them as just one of the many, many minority voices that make up the grand tapestry of diversity that is India, which after all, is a land of minorities…as a North Indian Hindu non-vegetarian UP Kayastha male, I too am a minority! In some housing societies in a certain “cosmopolitan” city, I am all too aware, I will not be allowed to buy a house…Discrimination is real, don’t blame the victim, stop the perpetrator by holding him/her accountable!

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    Zia is right, such discrimination against minorities and disadvantaged groups exist in every society- the challenge is to acknowledge it OPENLY and then confront it. Treating someone differently based on a negative stereotype is inhuman, wrong and against our fundamental political values. But we have to begin by acknowledging that such discrimination exists in our country and is an everyday occurence for millions of Muslims and Dalits. Please follow this link to see more examples of this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/18/AR2009041800792.html?referrer=emailarticle

    [Reply]

  • Sid

    Zia,
    “I am sorry to see the slow death of Hindu liberalism.” – Have you ever wondered why so? Concepts like this die only when they can not deliver. Hindu liberalism was there from 1947 to 1990. Hindus were mostly liberal people. So what exactly changed them after 1990? Why did Modi make more sense than Lalu Yadav?I was a part of so called secular group and as I began to see the massive failure that liberalism brought to my community in terms of human and other costs, I began to understand that all I used to believe so far was a massive make believe. What did liberalism bring to this country? Death and excuse? More death and more excuses!!!!
    You being an inclusive muslim or me being an inclusive Hindu would not stop your breathern from burning my neighbourhood. The fact that I am largely an athiest would not stop me from being islamic bombed!!!! Being a liberal is not a human responsibility, self-defense is.
    You say, integration is done. How? When? In villages, it is just peaceful co-existence. Under the hood there is heavy prejudice at both sides. We have not integrated, we would not and can not integrate the way a Sikh integrates with a Hindu or the way a Jain can invite a Hindu without prejudice. I would still support a seggregation where a both a muslim and non-muslim (see this is the reality of India) can find respectable areas to live. One may ask, what about other minorities!! I would say that other minorities did not break this country to find dar-ul-islam. They are much more trustable.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    your opinions about segregation seem quite similar to that of white supremacists in the US or German Nazis, and south African racists.

    You seem to be missing one point. Hindus do not own this country, nor are muslims guests here. Therefore Hindus are not exactly doing anybody a favor by being liberal. Its in their own interest (just like it is of others), to be liberal towards other communities.

    Secondly about integration and trustworthiness, well I am pretty sure that Dalits have far better reason to distrust caste hindus given the 2000 year history of their
    exploitation.

    Biases exist for sure in every society. But the attempts should be to assimilate and remove the biases, not segregate people. Which is why we had the civil rights movement in the US and the anti-apartheid movement in Africa.

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    Bobby, let us not get confused with integration with civil rights movement. This kind of confusion is pretty much a liberal problem. Civil rights movement was all about giving civil rights including voting rights to the oppressed section. I have never, for a moment, suggested taking away civil rights from muslim community. Also note that, I am not suggesting the muslims need to stay in ghettos. Despite all civil rights movement rarely you would see a black living in white neighbourhood in USA and I have seen blacks living in seggregated but pretty decent place in west coast.

    But I do support a seggregation. I am not willing to say that I would never go to Muslim areas or I would never eat a place where muslims have eaten. But our lifestyles are extremely incompatible, Muslims would not tolerate the way we would be worshipping and most Hindus think that smelling a beef curry that is prepared in the neighbourhood is disgusting. Sure I can be liberal enough to tolerate that, but ask a Muslim if they can tolerate the sight of pork. Even if Zia can, how many more would be willing to do that? Ask them. Being liberal is not only Hindu responsiblity you know. Besides if you have a muslim neighbour you never know when he or she or their son/daughter has the inspiration to eliminate the neighbourhood of the kaphirs.

    60 years of liberalism has ensured the kind of image that former ISI chief Hamid Gul described as “buzdhili”. This is why a neighbourhood country that can not feed it’s people can sponsor terror in our land. This is why a section of muslims enjoy all India has to offer and then support Pakistan in every thing. I had some doubt before, Mumbai 26/11 pretty much eliminated that. I do not have any problem with any other minority in India. But as a jewish writer once told: Muslims are just not into us.

    Coming to the ownership, yes, Hindus do not own India alone. But 60+ years back Muslim chose their land. What happened after that? Why did not they go to the dream land? I have never heard a Muslim saying that creating Pakistan was a bad idea (in fact that is a good idea, good riddance). So they ought to be going to that land. Or is there still a hope that they would get few more Pakistans out of India? There is no doubt that liberals like you would support it. After all terrorists are muslims too and they own India too.

    [Reply]

    Aniket Reply:

    Sid,

    I don’t think you understand the concept of tolerance. I agree that being tolerant and liberal cannot be a solely Hindu responsibility. But, suppose there is a Muslim tolerant enough to not have a problem with his neighbour eating pork or worshipping a million different gods. What would you suggest his neighbour do then? Wouldn’t it be his neighbour’s responsibility to show some degree of maturity and not make a fuss about the Muslim way of life? Or would you still be worried that the Muslim might some day have “the inspiration to eliminate the neighbourhood of the kaphirs”? (this btw, is hands down the most ridiculous argument I’ve heard or read.)

    As far as the question of Muslim choosing their own land goes, let me enlighten you on a couple of things. Whenever there was a referendum in pre-independence India, a majority of the Muslim population voted against the idea of dividing the country on religious lines. This is the reason why the Muslim League won very few seats in the election of 1937. They barely won any seats at all in what is now Pakistan. India was divided on religious lines because of the unreasonable madness of a few political leaders. I suggest you read your history. M. J. Akbar’s India – The Siege Within is fairly insightful on the matter.

    I think we can be sure that the section of Muslims who wanted Pakistan, went to Pakistan when it was formed. Those who stayed back CHOSE a secular and democratic India as
    their land.

    @ Bobby – you’re right. I’m starting to see the futility of this.

    Mitra Reply:

    Its amazing to see all the hatred against Muslims on this blog- and we pat ourselves on the back for being the worlds largest secular democracy. Anybody who ever wondered whether Emran Hashmi was discriminated against because he is a Muslim will find his answer in the comments section here. To all the people here, why should Indian Muslims be held responsible for whats happening in Saudi Arabia or other Islamic countries? Try to think a little bit, ok? Indian Muslims are Indians- they should have the same rights as others.

    I will probably be LYNCHED in India for saying this out loud- but there are simply too many HINDU BIGOTS in our country for us to be secular in anything but name. In practice, the level of discrimination that Muslims/Dlits face in our country is EXTREMELY high. Of course, many people here would be baying for my blood for saying this, but sometimes the TRUTH needs to be told.
    And Yes- I am a Hindu brought up in a religious household-but my parents didn’t teach me to hate others or be intolerant. I am patriotic and I want to see an India where every citizen is able to hold his/her head high and have equal rights whether they are Hindu/Muslim/Christian. It does not seem this is going to happen anytime soon.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Mitra
    Another POV: (from another bigot; the senior editorial team in HT seems to have so many bigots :-) ; first Vir Sanghvi daring to question why we do not ask the same questions to Muslims as we do HIndus and now Pankaj Vohra)
    http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/capital-closeup/2009/08/05/this-is-not-a-muslim-issue/

    You will be lynched? Come on! No one wastes time on migrants/ or otherwise (you live abroad?) from the salubrious climes of JNU; see how we look at Karats and Yechury.
    Anyway, you wanted attention and got it.
    And, no, we do not blame your parents for the way you turned out.

    Mitra Reply:

    Hey Ashish, there is a difference between asking touch questions to any community (Hindu/Muslim/Christian) and spewing hate filled rants and communal rhetoric. Vir Sanghvi is one of India’s best political journalists. Don’t quote him please- he will be mortified and embarassed to see people trying to vilify Muslims quoting him. I generally agree 100% with the HT editorial team on most issues- and yes, luckily for India,, they are not bigots, unlike most people here.

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Mitra, @Amit,
    my worldview is not liberal enough to accommodate apologists of Zakir Naik and the like.

    I am quoting Vir Sanghvi and Pankaj Vohra; not mis-quoting. And, the point is that we can’t have different definitions of a liberal or a terrorist depending on the religion. And, no, Vir Sanghvi will not be embarrassed. I have been reading Vir ever since his Sunday days; he has not minced his words ever.
    Want to get lynched in India? Go ahead, draw a very respectful picture of the Prophet, and very respectfully hang it in the privacy of your bedroom.

    This equivalence theory is so puerile; (Muslims have SIMI, Hindus also have VHP/ Bajrang Dal ). How many acts of terrorism (blowing up trains, planes, buildings, public places) have been ascribed to Bajrang Dal/ VHP? Until this Sadhvi (Pragya??) came about, and was caught by a Hindu police force and proceeded against, you liberals had no “celebrity” to parade. And, of course, that a**hole called Muthalik.

    My friends belonging to the Muslim community are scared; of the danger from members of their community. Of having to conform to stereotypes, of the game of hide and seek.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    “the point is that we can’t have different definitions of…a terrorist..”

    It would be useful if you would accept your own advice and see terrorists of all religions as that.

    If you were not a hypocrite, then you would have acknowledged that in India the Sangh Parivar is a much bigger threat than the Simi was or ever could be, Simply because of the stakes involved, and the far bigger reach it has among the population.

    “How many acts of terrorism (blowing up trains, planes, buildings, public places) have been ascribed to Bajrang Dal/ VHP?…”

    Again if you were not so hypocritical then you would have realized that terrorism is not restricted to violence by bombs. The Hindutva brigade has been involved in extreme violence in mumbai, Gujarat, Orissa, where people have been killed, burned, raped in thousands, If this is not terrorism then what is?

    By any reasonable definition the Sangh Parivar is a terrorist organization, and has been since much before the Sadhvi had been arrested.

    “My friends belonging to the Muslim community are scared;…”
    They should be, but just like your friends are scared of muslim fundamentalists, a large number of muslims, mostly poor are scared of an organization which has as its sole intention to convert them to a second class citizens in their own country. And not just the muslims, but thankfully a majority of hindus too are scared of these terrorists.

    Amit Reply:

    Mitra,
    I agree with you. What a sad group of lunatics. Is this how we claim to be on a moral high ground as compared to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? Where is the difference?

    Saurav ganguly Reply:

    My two cents:

    1) Emraan Hashmi is a failed actor. SRK/ Salman live in Juhu (which is a predominantly Hindu majority area). Why were they not denied NOC, Mr. Hashmi ? Salman himself denied any racial vilification (even suggesting that it was Emran’s personality rather than religion which was the reason why he was denied Housing).

    2) One of my ex-gf was a Pakistani and she was a really good human-being. It is not the religion or caste, it is the person that is respected or insulted. The landlord did not like you as a person Mr. Hashmi, he did not have a problem with your religion. Grow up and a grow a pair man! Airing your grievances on national TV. The landlord denied you his place, big deal, move on and find a better place. Stop acting like a sissy. You are shown as the “MAN” in all your movies with you being icy cool and unperturbed with anything around u. It will be good if you acted like that in real too and not a sissy. which you are Ms. Hashmi.
    I will never watch your movies (nor did I in the past, not coz u are a muslim, but frankly u are a pathetic actor! lol this is the same logic why you were rejected the apt, get it? or too dumb to even insult ?

    3) Forget all this religion bias and put your mind to work people. That will be the thing that will get you through in life.

    Sid Reply:

    @Bobby,
    “what do you think they did in Mumbai, Orissa, Gujarat, Kill plants and insects” – if you know that they did that, why do not you go ahead and put them in the jail? Just put the proof forward. The central gov is not a VHP loyalist, they can punish them in the court if they have the proof. I am not a VHP appologist so I am not even bothered with what they say.
    “and thats because in one word you are a hypocrite” – classic “secular” style personal attack. Why do not you answer this: given what SIMI did (and there is ample proof) and what VHP has been accused of (can I see some credible proof other than blank accusation), whom should be banned and why? If you can follow logic and history then get into argument, I no longer give in to bullying.
    Yes, hindutva extremists supported the two nation theory but let us step back and try to see who came up with the idea. You appear to know some history why do not you say the truth, buddy? If you “seculars” are so against the idea of two nations, why did “secular” congress and “secular” father of nation agree to it? Why did “secular” British Raj allow it? Truth is it is the “seculars” who could not resist the lust for power and hence gave in to Muslim League. I know you will still call me hypocrite. I do not expect any better from likes of you.
    Your rest of the babble is a well rehearsed anti-VHP speech. As I said I am not a VHP appologist, I do not give a damn on this. But if you are so disturbed with the killings of Muslims (and I am not saying that these killings were right) let me know if you were ever disturbed with death of civillians in bombs planted by likes of Indian Mujahideen or LeT.
    I do not want to shift 180 million Muslims out of India but I am not seeing any reason to trust muslim population and as I said before I would like to have the seggregation to preserve the way of life for both the communities. I also believe that after Pakistan was created and Muslims have never protested the creation (not a single Muslim leader) Muslims should have left the country. Some Muslims might not demand it, but they were the silent majority complicit in the act of breaking up the motherland. Anything for muslim brothers I guess. This is why I do not trust.
    BTW, irrespective of what Goebles said, saying same thing again and again does not make it truth. There should be facts supporting it. Let us have some facts!!! Can we?

    Anil Reply:

    No muslims want soem kind of equalilzation of justice with or without proof.. That means if you hang a muslim terrorist then pick some hindu and hang him with or without evidence..

    I am sick and tired of punish him punish her even socalled intellectuals too have made career out of this justice-equalization-syndrome..

    usual question is why has Modi been not punished..

    My counter question always is why don;t you produce enough evidence to get an FIR resgietered first let alone conviction..certainlyyou don;t expect court to punish someoen jsut because you think they are guilty..

    It’s nto era of 1984 where noone can get any case registered agaisnt Rajeev gandhi.. today if you have proof even flisisest of evdience there are million NGOs and media houses that will fall over each other to fudn your case if you have got any against Modi ro for that matetr anyone in court of law..

    You know very well other than your opinion you have got nothing…

    Beside around 30 people have been covnicted in 2002 riots case in comparison zero peopel have bene convicted in 1984 case..

    My point is court is not sleeping as you would like people to believe..

    sanjeev Reply:

    zia

    Please write an entry for discrimination against me. The case goes as follows:

    I want to go to jannat after my death but a particular god has reserved it only for his believers.

    Please tell me, is any discrimination worse than this ?

    Even The God is discriminating against me.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Good one :)

    amy Reply:

    Good for u , Muslims will go to their God and u can choose where u want to go . I know u alone (not Hindus) will be send back as a…………….

    Rajeev Reply:

    Fundoo going nuts….

    Amna,
    Muslim men get 72 hooris in heaven. What do women get?

    Last time I heard, muslim men consider women walking vagina.

    Bobby Reply:

    well for a start, how about the discrimination that hindu gods do on dalits? The gods created them from their foot apparently to serve (without touching) the the goody brahmins who of course they created from their mouth. Have you ever tried to question this discrimination?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Don’t worry about our Dalits. Talk about muslim dalits (Arjals). What about Ahmediyas who are hounded by your as heretics? You go on killing Shias for something that happened 1400 years ago.

    Anil Reply:

    Dalits can go to heaven there is no exclusion policy there.. now try answering the question of exclusivist islamic philopshy which preaches that Mahatma Gandhi is rotting in hell.. In fact the Khilafat movement leader mr Ali even expressed it.. To quote the great religious man

    “IN my view even the worst muslim is better than Gandhi.”

    Some tolerant all encompassing religion we have got here..

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ bobby

    The book that you might have read is no longer mandatory fo hindus to follow. But Quran IS ? It is nothing but a piece of ****. Gita, ramayana, mahabharta doesn’t mention your theory, although they are also not mandatory to be followed. But for muslims if one doesn’t follow QURAN then he is declared non-muslim. Have you heard of pakistan’s parliament declaring AHMEDIA’S as non muslims and thus minority in 1974 through an act of parliament.

    “discrimination that hindu gods do on dalits? ”

    Go and read any school of indian philosophy (advaita, vaisesika, samkhya, yoga etc.) God never say anything such discriminatory. It were preists who imposed their dictates on poor people, just to retain their supremacy.

    You need to have good education man, come out of your factories of terrorists (madrasa)
    atleast you should differentiate between what is said by god (one and only true GOD, A****) and mortal Brahmans.

    btw I m not brahman, rajput or baniya but among the other backwards and still I haven’t encountered your forms of interpretation.

    go and champion dalit cause, if you feel so concerned. The dalits are not terrorising the world as your brethren are doing. better if you teach those terrorists.

    Keep your concerns with u while ignoring the facts: India can have Mayawati, Ashok Gehlot, Munda etc as CM who enjoy outright support of all despite being among (according to you) so called discriminated ones but none from minorities is even a minister in **** govt. this is what you mullahs do when yyou are in absolute majority.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear crackpot sanjeev,

    Usually I dont like discussing the merits and demerits of different religions, because i think its not worth it, however its important to get the records straight in this regard, when liars like you disown the wrongs in Hinduism.

    In the Ramayana, indeed there is reference of castist attitudes. Rama kills a shudra shambhuka , on the insistence of Narada, simply because he was performing tapasya, which was not allowed for shudras.

    In the mahabharata, there is the famous incident of Eklavya, which i hope i dont have to repeat here.

    Even in the Bhagwad Gita, Krishna, who is god incarnate says explicitly that the four castes have been created by him.

    In the manusmriti, its explicitly written that brahmins came from the mouth of god and shudras from the feet. It further explicitly claims that the brahmins are superior to all the other castes, and that they and they alone have the right to the Dharamshashtras, and if a Shudra tries to steal any of the holy knowledge of the Vedas and Upanishads, then hell is where he will find himself.

    Moreover If a shudra tries to take the place of a brahmin, then the punishment he is to receive is that his buttocks would be cut or a hot iron rod would be put over his waists.

    The great manusmriti also states that any one who does not believe in the vedas and the dharmashastras are equal to the shudras.

    I can go on and on about the greatness of hinduism, but really i am not interested in comparing outdated books.

    sanjeev Reply:

    manusmriti is only of academic interests for researchers. No one follows it.

    they never mention caste…it is varna

    get your basics right

    Rajeev Reply:

    Even Mohammad calls his own tribe supreme and asks all muslims to respect his tribe.
    What about Ashrafs (decendents of invaders) and Arjals (local converts)?

    Islam is nothing but arabic tribal imperialism and you guys are slaves of that imperialism.

    I long for the day when you make a wrong move and west nukes your holy lands to ashes.

    Anil Reply:

    Rakshasa were killed irrespective of caste because they were menace to society.. Crackpots like you may not know but Ravan was Brahmi where as celbreatec charactesr lke Shobori are Dalit.. Krishna is Vaishya revered, balmiki is Shudra revered..

    At least you accept one thign we do not clign to the nonsense that tends to creep into religion in course of time but islmaist just love to brandish how that book full of nonsense is beyond reproach and best code.. now when we point out the realist of socalled best code for humanity we hear tu quoqe argument

    K Reply:

    Bobby dude,

    The existence of castes isnt unethical or illegal in itself. All societies have a structure.

    I doubt if Krishna says in Bhagwad Gita that any caste is ‘lower’ and should be discriminated against. Please quote the verse if you read this somewhere.

    As far as Manusmriti is concerned, you are talking about a different era and something thats only peripheral to the religion itself.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I am ready to urinate on discriminating manusmiriti but are you ready to do same on pages of Quran that teach discrimination?

    sanjeev Reply:

    @ rajeev

    this s good one

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    The fact that VHP is involved in these acts, is not a secret and moreover they dont even mind it being known. The hindutva brigade is on record, thanks to the investigative journalists at Tehelka about their acts in Gujarat. Moreover, if you ever care to read anything that has been done by various social organizations, in particular by Teesta setelvad you would have known that there are innumerable witness to what happened in Gujarat. It was nothing less than genocide.

    The Gujarat High court itself called Modi as a modern day NERO.

    About the mumbai events, well there is a very well documented report…its called the srikrishna commission report, and it tells in full gory detail how the hindutva brigade carried on the riots in Mumbai.

    The riots that happened after the Babri masjid demolition, …well its on tape and in the newspapers of the day how the ******** of the hindutva brigade were inticing people with “babur ke auladon” speeches and that cold blooded murderer Advani, purely for political gains decided to go on the rath yatra knowing full well the human cost that his yatra would bring about.

    About what happened in Orissa please read reports of the various human right organizations.

    “but I am not seeing any reason to trust muslim population…”

    I think Dalits would have a more genuine reason to not trust caste hindus given the 2000 years of exploitation.

    “…I also believe that after Pakistan was created and Muslims have never protested the creation (not a single Muslim leader) Muslims should have left the country…”

    You may believe whatever you want..but you fail to realize one particular point,…the divide was not between a Hindu India and a muslim pakistan…It was between the fundamentalists (again both hindu and muslim) who believed that people who belong to different religions can not co exist (pretty much the same arguments as you give actually…just shows that there are such people in all religions)… and the secular leadership who stood up and inspite of all the attempts of the hindu fascists did not make India into a hindu version of pakistan.

    Finally there is no need to be touchy about being called a hypocrite. I said it matter of factly. A hypocrite is a person who does not judge ones own action by the standards he uses to judge others. When you say what you say about muslim fundamentalism ,conveniently ignoring the history of the hindu fascists then you show yourself as a hypocrite.

    Similarly when those two morons Sanjeev and Rajeev give lectures on what is happening in Arabia, again convineintly forgetting the 2000 year old treatment that Caste Hindus have been meting out to Dalits in this country under the full approval of the Hindu religion, then they are only showing how much of a hypocrite they are.

    Sid Reply:

    @Bobby,
    Interesting anti-VHP speech. So everybody knows who did riots in Gujrat? Good, you have the irrefutable proof then? Good, file a public litigation claim against Modi. What is stopping you?
    Teesta Setalvad is so active that court finally has to bar her from the case. She is another example of a foreign funded NGO, try to read who funds her NGO and what is her stated goals. Teesta Setalvad is one reason that gives makes me feel there is something wrong about accusation against Modi/Advani.
    If Tehelka had tapes that can send Modi/Advani to jail, why are you guys waiting? Register a case. We all need to see who these guys really are. Once again I am not a VHP appologist. I am just backing my argument here. if they are criminals they should be punished. So is Afjal Guru. Oh, BTW, Rajiv and Sanjeev are not my handles , I can not see any reason to own their remarks.
    “I think Dalits would have a more genuine reason to not trust caste hindus given the 2000 years of exploitation. ” – that is the greatest non sequitur answer I have ever heard in recent times. Answer my question Bobby. What is the reason I should trust muslim community (individually I may trust Zia or M J Akbar or my friend Hassan but a general muslim)? I will not discuss anything about dalit politics simply because it is a very different matter. I do admit that excesses of so called “upper caste”is an accepted truth.
    As I said before, no muslim ever protested two-nation theory or partition. Those who decided to stay stayed because the land was theirs, we, the hindus, were not their people. Later a section of them finally formed groups like SIMI or Indian Mujahideen whose stated goals were to islamicise India. This scum is simply not welcome. If you are right then a big section of muslims do not support the terrorists, where is the condemnation in that community? They are quick to declare punishment of the danish cartoonist, where is fatwa against the jehadists? You would find none. In fact all that has been done against majority community, they still has the nerve to accuse the majority community for every bad thing that happened to them.
    A sitting MP and cabinet minister claimed that 26/11 was a Hindu conspiracy. I did not see a single word in English media about this. Why? Because a set of impotent and incompetent leaders lead the majority community? I would not be surprised if 10 years later gov bans any discussion related to Mumbai 26/11, simply to cover up it’s incompetence. The failure of liberals to act in a balanced manner and stop terrorism is the major reason liberalism is drying up in Hindu community. In muslim community it never flourished.
    Finally, I would call you stupid liberal. Do not get touchy about it. You are a liberal and too stupid to recognise an immediate threat. I am NOT saying this matter-of-factly. Feel good about it. Because next time the bomb explodes it would kill you anyway regardless of how liberal muslim loving you are. See, in this country, we can at least depend on bombs and guns to be secular.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    “Answer my question Bobby. What is the reason I should trust muslim community (individually I may trust Zia or M J Akbar or my friend Hassan but a general muslim)?”

    Here is an important lesson for you while you grow up from your current adolescent stage: Stop looking at people as monoliths. Just to take the example of M J Akbar, He is a muslim by religion, a Journalist by profession and Indian by nationality etc…several identities….muslim being only one aspect of this…therefore when you say “general muslim” It is very general indeed…it includes managers, teachers , fundamentalists, people of various nationalities, people with different attitudes, interests, aptitudes etc…. Some of them would be murderers, some thinkers, some sportsmen, and some saints…..

    Secondly about the Dalit issue, the point was raised in the context of your anti muslim rant. If you think that Muslims and Hindus cant live together because Hindus do not trust Muslims, then the same logic would also imply that Dalits would not be able to live with caste hindus, because of the oppression and injustice they have undergone over centuries.

    “…As I said before, no muslim ever protested two-nation theory or partition. Those who decided to stay stayed because the land was theirs, we, the hindus, were not their people. Later a section of them finally formed groups like SIMI or Indian Mujahideen whose stated goals were to islamicise India.”

    By the way you have a pretty good at making things up. You should seriously try a job as a script writer for some masala hindi movie, you would do a good job.

    xpx Reply:

    @Bobby

    “I think Dalits would have a more genuine reason to not trust caste hindus given the 2000 years of exploitation”

    I am a dalit but I don’t trust muslims at all, I am an islamophobe.

    Upper castes of india atleast didn’t kill dalits. but muslim majority countries do. If Islam was so good all dalits should have converted to ISLAM.

    live in a fools paradise !

    Rajeev Reply:

    It is old muslim ploy to divide hindus by talking about Dalit.

    If they don’t beleive in caste system then why do they have Ashrafs (Upper caste) and Arjals (lower caste) amongst sub-continental muslims.

    sanjeev Reply:

    according to the words of god “war is a deception” and politics is also considered a form of war by their words of god. So anything is justified in politics by the one and only GOD

    xpx Reply:

    Muslims doesnot know any morality.
    Their faith allow them to tell lie (to protect islam, to wife and in war ).
    this is the only faith that advoctes telling lie also.
    they derive morality from life of messenger of god. and we all know how much moral The messenger was……

    Nusrat Reply:

    Half knowledge is dangerous ..but u seem not to have even an iota of it……kabbhi kisii muslim ko suna have saying bad words about your gods/godesses..no because we believe that it may be possible that thhey may be among lakhs of prophets Allah has sent on earth to show us the right path……Its a shame ..if u don’t want to understand and respect others faith atleast don’t use such bad words.

    and for your kind information..ISLAM does teach to respect others faith even if we don’t agree with it

    Rajeev Reply:

    Nusrat,
    I have heard bad words from Muslims about Hindu religion. You people behave very differently when you are in majority.

    suparna Reply:

    @nusrat: pls pls pls dont say that we havent heard muslims using bad words and expressions about hindus.. the most infamous is the mf hussain case.. he can paint obscene paintings of Hindu gods and goddesses and claim it to be art.. y doesnt he paint a nude prophet mohammed?

  • sanjeev

    zia must write a blog entry for any of following:

    1. 200000 kashmiri pandits thrown away from their own home land by muslim marauders.
    2. why non-muslims not allowed to make place of worships in Saudi Arabia.
    3. why non-muslims not allowed to become head of state in islamic republics.
    4. why there are no minority in muslim countries like saudi arabia, iran,
    5 why jazzia on sikhs in pakistan.
    6. why only muslimswant separate state in chechanya, xinxiang, southern thailand, phillipines, etc
    7. Vested property act of bangladesh

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Don’t expect answer to these questions from muslims or their sympathisers?

    It is duty of Hindus to behave according to wishes of minority afterall our constituition gives them preferential treatment.

    It is time hindus become politically conscious and take POLITICAL Islam head on esle India will cease to exist and these same liberal muslims will justify all atrocities on hindus in the name of Islam (read political islam).

    I have absolutely no problem with SPIRITUAL side of Islam. Infact I consider it at par with any spritualism. It is important for sufi muslims to come forward and take leadership of muslim community.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    Plz phone up the embassies to know their stand and foreign policy and why they do what do as u allege, no muslim can be accountable for the actions of another muslim or has a new law being passed, missed it!!!But offcourse we are humans and feel for one another if there are good feelings u know the ans and if bad u still know the ans coz ur a human arent u.Than there is a sense of community, solidarity, affiliation that build nations and every country aims for it because its not easy but essential. India’s great simply because it absorbs and represents so many voices that’s what makes us the largest democracy and not because of the numbers.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Again you are avoiding the issues.

    Are muslims ready to accept that Hinduism is equal to Islam?

    Are muslims ready to treat non-muslims as equals in muslim majority country?

    If you can’t answer these question then I suggest you shut up.

    Your kind of closet fundamentalists are more dangerous than Bukharis.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    Seriously are these issues , is the UN discussing them or the Indian or Pakistani paliament discussing them.I dident see any public demonstration for or against them.U learn to face fact if u can.

    Amit Julka Reply:

    Mr. zia

    Hi…Nice article….Here’s my diagnosis

    What I ve observed of late is that in many cities,there is a Hindu area and a Muslim ghetto.And what I ve observed is a marked lack of hygiene and cleanliness and a lack of facilities in these areas vis a vis other areas.Call it government apathy,or the conditions of Muslims in general,but I think it is high time that you realized that the Government is not going to do much except making a speech.What you guys need to do is start taking matters into your own hands.Make your resident associations and clean up your areas yourselves(Remittances from abroad can help).An example that comes to my mind is the plan to redevelop bhendi bazaar in Bombay.And make sure that in the redevelop areas,you make it a point to invite people from other sects(for eg. the hindus) to stay and purchase properties there.It will end compartmentalization and ghettoisation slowly but surely.

    Also,what I’ve observed is a marked distrust towards your community.Why not tell the maulvis at deoband to congratulate the shankracharya on diwali/holi….

    Regards
    Amit

    Anil Reply:

    That ghettoisation was froced on sword point durign islamic rule.. muslim rulers considered kafir impure and hecne they were not allowed to live among muslim area..

    Today same muslims are cryign wofl over this but even a cursory glance of the history will tell one it’s their own creation..

    amy Reply:

    Exactly how do Indian Muslim minority influence such countries internal policies ? They cannot even influence their own people or government for their welfare forget other nations.

    xpx Reply:

    @amy

    which embassy will reply this question.

    1. 200000 kashmiri pandits thrown away from their own home land by muslim marauders.

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    Ask the Indian govt not me Im not responsible or accountable for such actions.

    Rajeev Reply:

    But all hindus are accountable for the action of one person.
    This is called twisted logic of muslim brain.

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    Its ur twisted boiling brains ,who is that one person? Ask the Indian govt. for addressing ur issues.Im not in authority else I would answered,Its not the topic of the discussion either stop polluting this blog coz none is fooled.

  • Siddharth

    The writer mentioned about communal prejudice creeping up in urban society whereas the village scenario is more harmonious. Well, I think it is the urban elite that is polluted. The jhopra residents are in fact more liberal and live in perfect harmony.

    [Reply]

  • Proud Hindu

    Wherever they are in a majority, muslims don’t care a damn about secularism (eg. Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.) but cry from the rooftops about it, where they are a minority (eg. China, India, etc.). They don’t respect other faiths because of their firm belief that Islam is the only true religion. This attitude has led to widespread hatred for them among non-muslims (“infidels”, according to some muslims).

    [Reply]

    Anil Reply:

    Reason is simple Holy book dictates them to feign the secualrism till they get ebnough numbers to either assert themselves or carve a new nation out..

    If and when India’s muslim demography reaches 30% we will see another round of pakistan episode..
    My conviction comes from reading ancient and contemporary history.. There does nto exist a single country where muslim minority after attainign critical mass is not indulged in sepratism.. This critical mass varies depending on the tolerance level of majority for instance if majority are buddhist very tolerant to their own detriment then even 5% is good enough number to start separatism.. Case in point Thailand..

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    If you look closeley and yes I have done it then you will fidn the genesis of separate housing locality for hidnus and muslims comes from the stern injunction of muslim rulers who considered kafir as impure. Details of these dictates by yester-year muslim rulers you can fidn even today in libraries.

    So this ghettopization didn’t just happen powers to be in those days forced it with sword-hand. Years of segregation can’t be wished away within 5-6 decades. ironically those who brought this segregation are now feeling the pinch.

    About renting again even today ti works both ways try renting an appt. in Khirki extension malviya nagar in muslim dominated part as hindu.. You would nto go much far I have tried even that just to check someon;s claim and found the claim to be true.. I certainly belive muslims too find it hard to rent houses inhindu homes.

    Other than the history fo forced segregation and resultant scar there is another important aspect to thsi impasse. Eatign habits, hindus most of them ( barring few neo-liberal who advertise beef-eating as the badge of secualrism in fact Mani Shankar Aiyar claimed exactly that on live TV but a BJp spokesperson grounded his exuberance by askign will he expect muslim to eat pork before awarding them badge of secularism , he got the message) can;t reconcile with beef eating or beef beign cooked in their house. This is the tallest hurdle . muslims cna udnetstand because majority fo muslim majirity country have banned pork eating through legislation so muslims should understand how hindus feel about killign and eating sthg hindus rever.
    There are certain socieities which doesn;t allow any meat-eater hindu/muslim/sikh/chrstian whsoeevr he/she/it may be.

    Coming to this particular case as usual it’s a nonsense given Hashmi’s parents live in the same locality noone denied entry to hsi parents so how can he claim he is being denied entry because he is muslim. Sometime back even ShabanA Azmi propped up thsi nonsense only to eb told lady you have got 6 apartments in posh colonies of the city and yet you have audacity to claim that you are beign victimized.. Issue died down.

    If muslims really want reconciliation then they shouls relook their eatign habits .. I am sure Quran doesn’t claim: Thou shall eat beef to be conciderd good muslim.

    PS: MY parents drive us out of house and any kind of meat cooking has to happen outside of the house since they are born vegetarian vaishnava . Should I cry foul and drag my parents to court for victimizing us.

    We understand where they are coming from and we don;t want to hurt their religious sentiments so we cook outside .. easy and simple

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Have you heard Farukh Sheikh? He is a good muslim who has balanced view. He is not afraid to speak for Hindus at the same time airing genuine muslim grivances in dignified manner.

    Whereas people like Javen Akhtar, Shabana Azmi are closet muslim fundamentalit who pretend to be secular but they are no different than Bukhari.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    Comme on dont expect us to choose one over another because they have a right to their views and ur none to judge them for us.

    [Reply]

    Anil Reply:

    yeah only psecs have right to throw judgement others must toe their line

    amy Reply:

    If u have a right to ur opinion why cant they?

  • Amy

    Sorry for u, for ur fears have got the better of u.The choice of who an Indian was already made on our independence otherwise we wouldent be better than a Pakistan or an Iran, why do u want to compare India to failed,bankrupt and idelologically different states, is it not belittling iot, but surely ur efforts are on that direction and will fail coz we live to coexist and not in vacum.Nowhere are Taliban being appreciated or the bloodshed applauded for ur information and for that matter even Israel is criticsed for excesses.We live and are a part of a system that operates globally .We are talking in terms of democracy because equality, discrimination, freedom of consciounce are all its tenents.What are your s,plz define so we know ur basis or point of arguments? Can u support any of ur argument or else stop making baseless allegations and slap them on anyone u feel fit coz u have had enough.A lot of Indians have had enough of intolerance too whether in north east, or Sikhs, or dalits or Muslims and even Hindus they have better issues to address and save a lot of time and the polls proved them.In the wheel of development we are on our way to becoming a world power.Do u want to with us or without us?
    1.If Muslims were not sensetive to pork the revolt of 1857 wouldent have started and countless Muslim lives lost for freedom of India,were Hindus not with them, they were.But where were u then or now?
    2.Simi is banned but are other Hindu extremist org affected or banned ?They continue to propagate fear, hatered creating insecurity .
    3.Coward for what because you cant fight Muslims in other countries who dont believe as u do.That way Hindus do become a minority at the world stage. How would u deal with that, start treating minorities better?No a system is in place to take care of things and by ur effort that is not strengthening .
    A coin has two sides learn to look on both and respect others and their values for we can all learn and contribute meaningfully.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Non-sense.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    It doesnt matter.

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    Amy,
    allow me to give you a few answers.
    1. What is a “failed,bankrupt and idelologically different states”? A nation that has 1.2 billion plus people and spends 32+ BN $ to keep an army gets bullied by a reviled country and PM of this country admits that he does not know any better way to protect it’s people other than crying foul. A nation that fails to protect its people does not deserve to be called a nation. We are still pointing to Pakistan saying see that is a failed state. Shame on us.
    2. “In the wheel of development we are on our way to becoming a world power”. What is your age? Do you buy everything that news…er…nautanki channels sell you without questioning it? If you do, then do not read any more, you would not get it. I would love to see my country as a global power, however a country that can not assert itself bilaterally can not assert itself internationally.
    3. “…countless Muslim lives lost for freedom of India,were Hindus not with them, they were…” try a better english next time, but that is not my point. Countless muslim lives? Where were they? Who were the leaders? Jinnah’s grteatest contribution was idea of Pakistan, nothing more. Apart from Jinnah, try these names: Syed Ahmed Khan, Maulana Mohammad Ali, Maulana Shaukat Ali. Learn about them. The first one is founder of Aligarh University, but he was not only a pro-british guy, he was a british spy. Try other names. You will understand their contribution. I am not even getting to names like Suhrawardy or Golam Sarwar Hussein. Our well filtered “secular” history courses in school hardly teach you these names in Indian History. If they did, you would not have written this sentence.
    4. “Simi is banned but are other Hindu extremist org affected or banned ?” Did any of these “other Hindu extremist organization” blow a building or kill civilians? One can argue that VHP/RSS did Gujrat riots. There is a “secular” Cong gov in the center, why do not they get the proof and punish the guilty? I am not a VHP appologist, I am uncomfortable about thugs representing my religeon. But I am way more uncomfortable when somebody compares VHP with SIMI.
    5. “No a system is in place to take care of things and by ur effort that is not strengthening” yes, keep dreaming. Couple of riots and tens of major bombings later we are hoping. Well, you can hope that you can hope in future. I want to act.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    “Did any of these “other Hindu extremist organization”…. kill civilians? ”
    Well Hello! what do you think they did in Mumbai, Orissa, Gujarat, Kill plants and insects…or is it that you do not consider certain people as “civilians” ????

    “But I am way more uncomfortable when somebody compares VHP with SIMI…”
    Sure you are, and thats because in one word you are a hypocrite. The Hindutva brigade is by far more dangerous than any Simi or whatever. It is the Taliban of India. Its record and its intensions speak for itself.

    Just like the Muslim league, it supported the two nation theory, and thats on record. The only difference unlike the League it didnot want muslims, but wanted the land.

    Sine then it follows a policy of “cultural nationalism”, which basically means that you may be living in India for centuries, but if you are not a hindu then you are the owners of the land. You have to be a Hindu to be an Indian, you have to accept that Cows are holy and not to be touched, You have to revere Ram, and the hindu scriptures.

    It has been involved in riots after riots in Gujarat, Orissa, Maharashtra. Spreadin lies, poising peoples minds and openly wanting to change the nature of India into a Hindu Paksitan.

    amy Reply:

    Sid,
    Your agruments are flawed.

    1.The measure of a nation’s strenght is not military today and what I claim is documented that Pakistan is a failed nation but not India .Neither is there a comparision to theocratic states at all fair.Plz stop disgracing India and draging it to a stature so low,it has achieved with great hard work and self sufficiency.

    2.Again I stick to my claim that India is on the way to becoming a world power because it has educated young technically qualified workforce, the infrastructure is coming up etc It is playing an assretive role on world arena and our voice is heard and headed e.g SAARC countries,Discrimination of Indians overseas,they are global partners in pathbreaking policies etc.What needs to be done nationally is revamp our system to new needs.You sound apologitic of its sucess and yet want the glory.

    3.The fact remains that such org continue to operate and under which ever govt and the victims remain the same.Justice delayed should not become justice denied.

    4.Mind u all the leaders u mention are of post 1857 Revolt. The leaders mentioned are never termed Indian traitors either except by u .They fought for the same goals of Indian independence but disageed on many things which the British govt exploited and Indian nationalist saw and tried to warn against. Why blame the Indian Muslims who remained patriotic and decided to stay back,what was their fault;loyalty. What arrangement were made for Indian Muslims leadership, saftely or political or economic safeguard by Mr.Jinnah or the Muslim League.Are Indian Muslims left back for u to critisise and satisfy ur disguist, anger frustrations for the actions of Pakistani.Hello u got the wrong target mate.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Still a load of ****.

    xpx Reply:

    a muslim talking about values. I piss off at their so called values. some of them are: stonning by death, canning young girls for obscene acts, amputations etc.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    She forgets that most of the Indian Mujahideen members were highly educated. So it proves that education alone can not change muslim mind-set.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Good One Ashish,

    Just a contextual clarification: they (of course I don’t mean all of them) do not want “Equal Opportunity” but “Equal Outcome”. (And this is from that Bible of Hindu oppression on Muslims – Sachar Report)

    One good news I have discovered what might be called 4th Law of Newton! Goes like this – “when something happens to Muslims, including non issuance of NOC by residential societies, it is because they are Muslims and follow Islam.

    When terror attacks happen it has “nothing to do with Muslims/ Islam”

    Unfortunately, there are two many who can actually claim this “Invention” as theirs, while I have only discovered it.

    sanjeev Reply:

    I FOUND ONE USEFULL PIECE OF ANALYSIS ON NET: HERE IT GOES

    From Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery,Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat .

    Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as …. As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens.
    This is the case in:
    United States � Muslim 0.6%
    Australia � Muslim 1.5%
    Canada � Muslim 1.9%
    China � Muslim 1.8%
    Italy � Muslim 1.5%
    Norway � Muslim 1.8%

    At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize ( To induce someone to convert to one’s own religious faith ) from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
    Denmark � Muslim 2%
    Germany � Muslim 3.7%
    United Kingdom � Muslim 2.7%
    Spain � Muslim 4%
    Thailand � Muslim 4.6%

    From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
    France � Muslim 8%
    Philippines � Muslim 5%
    Sweden � Muslim 5%
    Switzerland � Muslim 4.3%
    The Netherlands � Muslim 5.5%
    Trinidad & Tobago � Muslim 5.8%

    At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
    When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings.
    Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
    Guyana � Muslim 10%
    India � Muslim 13.4%
    Israel � Muslim 16%
    Kenya � Muslim 10%
    Russia � Muslim 15%

    After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
    Ethiopia � Muslim 32.8%
    At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
    Bosnia � Muslim 40%
    Chad � Muslim 53.1%
    Lebanon � Muslim 59.7%

    From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
    Albania � Muslim 70%
    Malaysia � Muslim 60.4%
    Qatar � Muslim 77.5%
    Sudan � Muslim 70%

    After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
    Bangladesh � Muslim 83%
    Egypt � Muslim 90%
    Gaza � Muslim 98.7%
    Indonesia � Muslim 86.1%
    Iran � Muslim 98%
    Iraq � Muslim 97%
    Jordan � Muslim 92%
    Morocco � Muslim 98.7%
    Pakistan � Muslim 97%
    Palestine � Muslim 99%
    Syria � Muslim 90%
    Tajikistan � Muslim 90%
    Turkey � Muslim 99.8%
    United Arab Emirates � Muslim 96%

    100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ � the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:
    Afghanistan � Muslim 100%
    Saudi Arabia � Muslim 100%
    Somalia � Muslim 100%
    Yemen � Muslim 100%
    Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.
    ‘Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.
    Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’ It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos of their
    choosing, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.
    Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.

    Anil Reply:

    If this sctribe si to be believed someone in france drove muslims in ghetto so is in britain.> For some weird reaosn hindus migrating there do not enter into any hindu ghetto..

    Classi mullha victim mentality.. Everyone is wrong except them..

    What better to expect from people who advocate philopshy that if you do not pray the way I do you will go to hell..

    Gandhi was declared hell-bound by KHilafat movement leader simply because he was hindu..

    Ghettoisation is nothign when you pay allegiance to thsi sort of arcane twisted religious philopshy

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear crackpot Sanjeev,

    Why do you try and deceive people with articles from irrelevant people. When you write “Dr” it fools people into believing that this guy has any academic record, which is not the case. One search in google reveals that he is a christian missionary, the same as Zakir Naik, and that he has “also earned a Doctorate in Missiology and has an honourary Doctorate of Divinity”.

    Nuts like you will only read works of other nuts.

    Anil Reply:

    Ever heard of shooting the messenger phrase.. who cares abotu the shcoalship of the author.. Noone can deny the naked facts that are in those articles..

    Aren’t muslim busy in separatism eveyrhwere where they have soem significant number.. Heck even Thailand buddhist paradise is facing islamic separatism..

    K Reply:

    Amy,

    Thanks for a thought-provoking debate. Your arguments make sense to a large extent.

    Can you also explain why majority hindus love Emraan on screen but as the writer assumes, would discriminate against him or any other muslim when it comes to renting their home ?
    Why are many of my VHP friends big fans of Salman Khan and Shahrukh Khan but presumed guilty when it comes to riots ? Why have you failed to point out that when RSS swayamsevaks volunteer in any emergency (As they do so often), they dont discriminate between helping a hindu or a muslim or a christian ? Have you been an RSS volunteer and have you experienced this pleasure of helping your countrymen ? Why is it that a predominantly christian YMCA is not looked at through a christian lens but the RSS is always equated with the VHP even when the two organizations have completely different ideology (Hinduism vs. Nationalism) ?
    One hypothesis (and this is just a hypothesis) is that when it comes to the bad things about India, we cannot differentiate between the Hindu thought and the thought of India. When it comes to the good, we quickly credit the ’secular’ ideology, i.e. the fact that inclusion or equal opportunity for other religions has lead to our progress.
    Let us first acknowledge that India is secular because it is predominantly Hindu and its constitution was founded on Hindu principles.
    The muslims in India need to liberate themselves from this confusion about somehow being a minority. If nothing else, they need to acknowledge that they are muslims only because their hindu ancestors at some stage made a different choice (due to coercion or free choice or incentives or spiritual realization or whatever) and they have done well to uphold that choice over several thousand years of existence before their ancestor’s changed their religious beliefs.

    The hindus on the other hand, need to follow their real religion – sanatana dharma and not this artificial religion imposed on them by arab rulers from the other side of the Sindhu river. Hindus own the legacy of being the most original and ’secular’ religion in mankind. They need to maintain this originality by not being as narrow minded as other religions, establishing centers of excellence in Sanskrit and making their roots even stronger in this world of semitic lunacy.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear K,

    “Can you also explain why majority hindus love Emraan on screen but as the writer assumes, would discriminate against him or any other muslim when it comes to renting their home ?”

    Your question is based on a false assumption. “Majority hindus DO NOT discriminate against Emraan when it comes to renting houses”. Some do, many dont. In fact this whole idea of analyzing people’s behaviour based on their religion is stupid to say the least. People liking Emraan as an actor has nothing to do with their religion. There are many muslims who love Amitabh Bachchan, even in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    Moreover not getting houses to stay is not as much discrimination as it is a signal of existing prejudices in society. In the interest of every indian this should be removed.

    “Have you been an RSS volunteer and have you experienced this pleasure of helping your countrymen ? ”

    There is not doubt that they have a strong army of cadres who reach out and help people during earth quakes and other crises, but again this has nothing to do with some “hindu inclusivity” that other religions do not possess. In Pakistan for instance, the “jamaat ul dawa”, which is supposed to be involved in terror attacks in India, does involve itself in charity work also, so do many of the Jihadi outfits, Infact quoting from Wikipedia:

    “After the ban imposed by UNSC, Hindu minority groups in Pakistan came out in support of JuD. At protest marches in Hyderabad (pakistan), Hindu groups said that JuD does charity work such as setting up water wells in desert regions and providing food to the poor.[8] Its banning has been met with heavy criticism in many Pakistani circles including many Christians and Hindus as JuD was the first to react to the Kashmir earthquake and the Ziarat Earthquake and used to run over 160 schools with thousands of students and provided aid in hospitals as well….”

    So you see its the same everywhere. This does not mean that they do not participate in terror activities, just like the Sangh parivar does. This is one way they try and connect with the people, and grow a mass support base.

    “but the RSS is always equated with the VHP…”
    But the RSS itself claims to be a part of the same sister organization, like the bajrang dal and the VHP, namely the Sangh parivar. The RSS is the cultural wing, the VHP the religious wing and the BJP the political wing…

    “Let us first acknowledge that India is secular because it is predominantly Hindu and its constitution was founded on Hindu principles….”

    Is it not utterly obvious that this can not be the case. Just look at the facts. How do you explain the fact that the US or most western countries which ARE NOT predominantly hindu are also secular, or for that matter that Turkey a predominantly muslim country is also secular. Moreover how do you explain the fact that Nepal till some time back was a Hindu state?

    About hindu principles, In fact Indian constitution is anything but hindu in principle. Most of its laws about gender equality, equality irrespective of castes and laws relating to marriage, inheritance for hindus are completely against what hinduism preaches.

    “Hindus own the legacy of being the most original and ’secular’ religion in mankind. They need to maintain this originality by not being as narrow minded as other religions, establishing centers of excellence in Sanskrit and making their roots even stronger in this world of semitic lunacy…”

    As a start hindus should stop believing that Hindus are by nature inclusive and kind and what not… Again repeating what i said in the beginning , people are not and can not be inclusive, kind and what not just because they are from a certain religion, and in the same way people can not be lunatics or narrow minded simply because they are muslims. We have to try and judge people on an individual basis.

    I might have sounded unnecessarily harsh on hinduism, but that was not the point or intention. The intention was to hopefully make you realize that hinduism like all other religions, has a mixed legacy. It has very nice aspects and some pretty terrible aspects, just like the semetic religions. The point is to realize this fact and get on with life, instead of singing the glories of hinduism or for that matter islam.

    Rajeev Reply:

    A bigot muslim has a very distorted worldview.
    This post for bobby is classic example of this.

    He forgets that his ancestors divided this nation and still hindus allowed them to stay back.
    What else is required from hindus?

    If you hate hindus, pack your bags and live in pure land.

    Enough is Enough.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Islam is nothing but another form of Nazism whereas Hinduism with all its flaws has capacity to look inwards and reform itself.

    Islam is 99% politics and 1% spirtualism whereas other religions are 99% spiritualism and 1% politics.

    K Reply:

    - Your question is based on a false assumption. “Majority hindus DO NOT discriminate against Emraan when it comes to renting houses”. Some do, many dont.
    What part of the original post draws this distinction and/or clearly states that we are debating the behavior of a fringe minority of Hindus who are prejudiced ? The discussion is about the ’subtle prejudice’ of the hindu society towards a particular religious minority. I dont see the author arguing in support of the invisible hindu majority that condemns such incidents of prejudice. If we all agree to your proposition that a fringe minorty of hindus is a problem, then this debate should end because such eccentric minorities exist in all regions of the world and will continue to exist forever. I think your assessment of the author’s claim is wrong – the author is referring to the hindu society and not the specific home owner who denied Emraan.

    “Moreover not getting houses to stay is not as much discrimination as it is a signal of existing prejudices in society. In the interest of every indian this should be removed. ”
    Pardon my ignorance, but I dont understand the difference between prejudice and discrimination. Are you refering to the difference between a mindset and putting that mindset into action ? Prejudice leads to discrimination. You refer to the ’society’ as a whole which makes me think that you are referring to a MAJORITY of hindus.

    “In Pakistan for instance, the “jamaat ul dawa”, which is supposed to be involved in terror attacks in India, does involve itself in charity work also, so do many of the Jihadi outfits…”

    The comparison is not only insulting, it is moronic. Did you hear RSS talking about “bleeding Pakistan through a 1000 cuts” or creating a Hindu caliphate in south Asia ? Or imposing Sati as law in India like JuD advocates Sharia ? Lets not stretch reality to make Hindus look as bad as crazy radicals or other psychopaths.

    “but the RSS is always equated with the VHP…”
    Yes and no – Yes in public perception and their claims because they define the word ‘Hindu’ differently from you. A Big ‘No’ in Actions and Objectives. VHP has no muslims in it, RSS does because RSS is about Rashtra and VHP is about religion.

    Is it not utterly obvious that this can not be the case. Just look at the facts. How do you explain the fact that the US or most western countries which ARE NOT predominantly hindu are also secular, or for that matter that Turkey a predominantly muslim country is also secular. Moreover how do you explain the fact that Nepal till some time back was a Hindu state?

    The answer is very simple – You will have to show me a country with 80% muslim population that is as secular as India. Turkey doesnt compare to India in terms of ethnic and religious diversity. As far as the ’secular’ thought in Christianity goes, please take a quick look at http://www.missionindia.org/about/whyIndia
    I would also add that tax payers in these ’secular’ countries get tax benefits and donate heavily for ‘religious acquisitions’ in third world countries.

    About hindu principles, In fact Indian constitution is anything but hindu in principle. Most of its laws about gender equality, equality irrespective of castes and laws relating to marriage, inheritance for hindus are completely against what hinduism preaches.

    Do you know what Hinduism preaches or are you talking about what you hear from the most vocal Hindus around you ? Have you heard about ‘Vasudevam Kutumbakam’ ? Have you heard about ‘Ekam sat vipraha bahuda vadanti’ ? When you talk about gender inequality or caste system you are talking about at least a 1000 years after sanatana dharma was founded – in other words, you are talking about someone’s (read ‘Manu’s) interpretation. Have you seen a mandir where Manu, the smriti writer, is worshipped by Hindus ? I guess not, because Manu was thrown into limelight by non-hindus to rightfully point to flawed practices that developed centuries after Hinduism was founded. Its like defining Christianity through paganism. Lets talk about Hindu priniciples and not practices because practices change with times.

    As a start hindus should stop believing that Hindus are by nature inclusive and kind and what not… Again repeating what i said in the beginning , people are not and can not be inclusive, kind and what not just because they are from a certain religion, and in the same way people can not be lunatics or narrow minded simply because they are muslims. We have to try and judge people on an individual basis.

    I am not saying that all Hindus are inclusive – I am saying that Hindus of our times need to be less narrow minded. The problem with your assertion that any individual can be inclusive irrespective of religion is superficial. If you study religions in detail, you will find that different religions provide varying degrees of room to manouver around the basic principles. Individuals, through their mindset, upbringing etc are able to interpret to some extent but the degree of flexibility is controlled by the religion itself. I say this with no offence to any religion, but Hinduism does provide the broadest framework if you follow the basic principles. Various Hindu and non-hindu sects have spawned from this basic framework precisely because of this flexibility.
    The idea that individuals should not be judged by their religion is true, but you are in the wrong blog to make that argument. The author names his blog “The call me a muslim”, which means that ‘them’ calling him a muslim is more important to him than ‘them’ calling him a journalist or bispectacled or prejudiced or anything else !

    Bobby Reply:

    “The author names his blog “The call me a muslim”, which means that ‘them’ calling him a muslim is more important to him than ‘them’ calling him a journalist or bispectacled or prejudiced or anything else !…”

    Dear K, I think you have seriously misunderstood the meaning of that phrase.

    About the rest of your article, I am just too tired of this now…..

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Sanjeev,

    Why do only read stuff written by Nuts? That is very naughty.

    There was another nutty-nutty guy by the name of Winston Churchill. He also used to give naughty naughty quotes.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Everyone can see who is the real crackpot behind infidel name “BOBBY”.
    Why don’t you use your real name? Are you ashamed of your identity?

    Sid Reply:

    Yes, I agree. Bobby, please give us your first name and may be a line about where did your high IQ take you to.

    amy Reply:

    Why are u getting personal, it shows u have lost ur bearing and and any sense of maturity and dignity. u have revealed urself completely and everyone reading this blog knows and can clearly make out as, the enemy of Islam, muslims and India.I dont beleive anything u claim or write not because it is not truth but coming from u who is sick, unreasonable,and crazy in hatred questions my sensibility..

    Rajeev Reply:

    Amy,
    Your real name please? I can see a burqa wearing wierdo punching keys.

    amy Reply:

    Really, as usual wild imagination and dreadful quotation .Dommsday is near infact Nostradamus predicted the Muslims will rule the world before it ends!!!!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Your behave live Burqa wearing wierdo..evenif you don’t wear burqa.

    Even good edcucation can not change quran infested mind.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    “Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.”

    This is really a very dreadful scenario but it is quite possible that they will cease to exist because they simply do not understand Darwin’s theory “survival of fittest”.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Sarcasm, turns of phrases, good writing and refusal to budge an inch from our respective positions? Is that all we can think of?

    Only a biased person can bring together things like a Muslim being denied a house and a Muslim convicted of terror. Can’t get any more juvenile. Would have appreciated if debate was not turned into slanging matches. Civility in language?? Phrases like “piss on Muslims”?? All those who think they have adequately blurted bile should also realise that they reveal where they stand. Sad.

    @Sanjeev, xps : Why mask identities why there’s nothing to hide?

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    I am in full agreement that this was “Juvenile Stuff” from a Biased person.

    Because ‘UNBIASED’ and grown up scholars must grieve over death (done or approaching) of Hindu liberalism, because a Bollywood actor is not given an NOC by a residential society and another set of “open-minded” high IQ scholars should provide unassailable evidence that “Hindu liberalism” is a myth and adduce 2000 years of Dalit oppression and 62 years (2009 –1947) of Muslim oppression by Bigoted Hindus as the unassailable evidence. More “ZING” in form of another set of enlightened souls who assert that “Hinduism” itself is myth.

    This variety of opinions/approaches is the very foundation of a plural, modern, secular and successful society. Alas, if only Hindus were to accept such diversity

    Ashish Reply:

    @Zia
    Good luck with understanding what Amartya Sen says; he is after all the product of a truly liberal education. A man of towering intellect, great sagacity, awe-inspiring depth and breadth of knowledge of vast areas of human achievements. An Economics Nobel, whose knowledge of our ancient texts and the Sanskrit language can put many pundits to shame. A true renaissance man. India should be proud of such a man even if one disagrees with him on some of his interpretations of history.
    Amartya Babu said some “scandalous things” (in the Outlook interview) .. even advised the left not to be prisoners to the anti-American worldview which precludes progress. Vinod Mehta at least published it. God only knows what he will tell you and what you will publish.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Sid
    I had given up on Amy a few posts ago and the another IQ certification authority Booby quite some time ago.
    But somehow I could not overcome the Temptation. Must be IQ silly me.

    Sid Reply:

    SKS, I can not agree more.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sid,
    You really don’t get it, do you :-) ?
    Here’s some history from the liberal POV. Accept it and all will be well.

    Muslims in India have been victimized always. Right from the time of the Lodis, Aibaks and the centuries old Mughal rule only made it worse. They were victimized by their own rulers.
    Then, the British came and together with the perfidious Hindu Bania (much later, in independent India led by the likes of “that murderous Advani”) ensured that the lot of Muslims never improved, just got progressively worse. You with me, so far?

    Hindus have this unfair trait/ serious character flaw. They really have no religion. Think of it; they also had books written/ passed on orally for thousands of years. But, you think they will stick to it? Nope. Anytime some jerk would come along, call himself a social reformer and drop provisions/ reinterpret the ancient texts. Just like that! What kind of religion is that? Not like Muslims.

    Moving along, these Hindus cosied up with the Brits and learnt English and enrolled their children in schools. The Muslims did not do so; they saw no merit in learning any language other than Arabic and Farsi; useful in reading the only book that matters.

    All these hundreds of years of persecution have enfeebled the Muslim people in India. In this version of history, irrespective of who ruled India, Muslims have suffered consistently. Of course, all the pre-independence persecutions pale into nothingness when you consider what has happened to them post-independence. They have been tortured, made second class citizens, subjected to riots, genocides, systematic persecution, ethnic cleansing, apartheid… (contact historian Bobby for more adjectives). And, then came the 7-8 years of BJP rule and Sangh Parivar terror; man, life was not worth living.
    Of course there have been mitigating factors. Hindu Indian politicians (of the non-Sangh Parivar lineage), bless ‘em, have always looked after the Muslims well. Even if there were riots in their time, somehow, it never felt like that. They have worked tirelessly to keep the diabolical forces of “progress” at bay working in close consultation with the always alert watchdog of Muslim interests, the MPLB. Bless that man, Rajiv. Had his heart in the right place; he alone had the good sense to see that a community’s sentiments voiced by their elders have to be respected; to the hell with some old woman called Shah bano.
    Life is good; only if Shabana got that house that she wanted and that Hashmi wasn’t denied the flat he had his heart set on…

    60 years after independence, the time has come to take stock and to assert the right to “equal outcome” for all Muslims. All liberals must rise and help them achieve their goals.

    Sid Reply:

    @Ashish,
    This has to take the cake. This one is ultimate. The feeling that I could not convey with all the historical facts and quotes, you achieved it. Hats off!!!! :)

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sid,
    All thanks to my liberal friends on this blog :-) My debt to them can never be repaid.
    I also forgot to mention that you must first accept that you are a person of low IQ, low tolerance and a bigot (in capital letters). Start with liberal (oops, wrong word) doses of humility, be prepared to genuflect at the alter of unreason and accept.. just accept. Unquestioned faith…

    Having said all that, I do believe seggregation is not the answer. Too many of my Muslim friends have shifted/ want to shift into Hindu localities. No, not because they do not call themselves Muslims, but because they are utterly sick of the identity baggage that they bear and the forced conformism with the dictates of the community. These families must be protected, they must be encouraged. When Salman Khan celebrates Indian-ness by celebrating “Ganapati Bappa” or a largely Muslim housing society near my home plays the most raucous Holi, when the Khans from 3 floors below come home for prasad during Lakshmi Puja, when Shakil calls me home for Bakr-Id dinner or when A sends her daughters home for night-stay with us when she is traveling out as she does not feel they are safe in the neighbourhood that she stays in. Our hope as a nation, our collective future lies with them.

    @SKS: :-) good to see you back. Yes, “equal outcome” now ranks with “dictatorship of the proletariat” and Sachar Commission report with the “Communist Manifesto”. Can’t be questioned.

    Anil Reply:

    Great piece..Keep the real flag of secualrism flying not the perverted one endorsed by our congress brethren and their apologists..

    By the way if you do want to read little more about socaleld Mirage of golden period of islamic history got to read the book by Tarek Fatah.
    Chasing the Mirage..

    Most probabaly it won’t be available in India you can get it through amazon .

    Sid Reply:

    @Ashish,
    I used to believe so. I am not sure today. Our collective future, which you are so eager to protect seems to be getting bombed again and again. As I said before I would not want to kill muslims or endorse those who killed. I would not have a problem with 180 million muslims in India if there were no organizations like SIMI. I would not have a problem with a muslim neighbour who lives his life peacefully, even if he does not invite me dinner for bakr-id.

    Let us not forget a muslim terrorist does not have a common profile other than being muslim. What is more, the upper echeleon of muslim society (doctors,engineers etc) contributes to terrorism more than the not-so-affluent section of the muslim society. So the question is, really, do you trust. If muslim society wants to change and walk towards a prosperous enlightened society, the change has to come from within. The other day I read a peace from M J Akbar who asked a bill for uplifting women in muslim society. His point was that because such a bill is there for all non muslim society, it should be passed for muslim women too. But this is not going to work as it was not raised from within the community (I mean by the leaders, not intellectuals). Muslims are there in nearly every country. Only one Kamal Ataturk existed in Turkey. Turkish muslims, today, are way better than their brethern in other countries because of changes initiated by Ataturk.

    Unfortunately, except M J Akbar I have not read anybody from Indian muslim society who has written anything about the change. Zia’s blog looks like a big endorsement of “see, I am a victim” attitude. The moment someone blames others for their backwardness, then one thing is assured, the backwardness is not going to end anytime soon. It is this backwardness that is providing a fertile land for growing terrorists. So the problem is not going to end anytime soon. So the choice is either a social seggregation or live with explosives.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    @ Ashish

    I have never tried this form of creative writing, the one you have so succesfully patented, but let me dabble in it one first time regardless of whether I can pull it off:

    To call Sangh Parivar a terrorist umbrella organisation is an act of terror in itself. Sangh Parivar is the noblest of organisations, more noble than Medicins sans fronteires or the Red Cross. Muslims are natural born terrorists. Sangh Parivar is a philantrophic organisation, that wishes everyone well. Muslims should really do some soul searching. The best way that can be done is to start by clipping beards and sporting tilaks. If you are an Indian, you should look like one (well that’s how Indians look like)!! Muslims have seldom cared for modern English-medium education. Forget the fact that just 4 per cent of Indian Muslims attend madrassahs. Sangh Parivar has played a major role in Hindus making a beeline for western education. Bajrang Dal is an organisation of monks who wouldn’t even think of hurting a fly. They are apostles of peace. Mahatma Gandhi was a scheming politician who took Muslims along because he needed their support. Savrakar is the big daddy of this nation. Gandhi was just had great PR skills.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I can smell something burning. A person who beleives in Quran is taunting us about peace and tolerance.

    It is like Nazi preaching a Dalai lama.

    Sid Reply:

    Zia,
    I think Ashish was mocking a liberal point of view. Is it necessary that whoever criticize the liberals has to belong to Sangh Parivar? I am not sure where are you going with such a myopia. You liberals have the same disease.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Sid,
    Even I am not an optimist; but, without optimism, what else do we have?

    Shared spaces, shared schools, public places like parks, hospitals.. when people come into contact with each other and live in forced open-ness, there is less trouble; the community keeps an eye.
    Make no mistake. I am not asking for a soft state. I want the state to do what it should: govern. In our country, the state does everything else except we need a state to do: defend borders, maintain internal security, aggressively invest in social sectors. Oh, yes. I plead guilty to being a card carrying right-wing.
    I make fun of Singaporeans at every opportunity (all good natured; Ram, if you are reading this) but, there are some things which they do which are worth following. Admittedly they have a puny little city and we have a huge country with a large population. I refer to the primacy they accord to law and order, mandated racial mixing but unlike neighbouring Malaysia, no appeasement of anyone. Sure, that makes Singapore very predictable and boring; but, I think, for many of us, it would be an acceptable trade-off. BTW, I AM NOT going to be drawn into a discussion of the political system and so on of Singapore.

    We have pushed for diversity as a goal in itself. We forget that the actual phrase was “unity in diversity”. India with its limited resources, must still ensure that every child must go to school; get free quality education, healthcare for everyone. 180 million Muslims; if only 40% of them (??) are educated with enough skills for the job market, who will pay for the upkeep of the balance? It’s you and me!
    But, the content of the education can not be left to the Muslim religious bodies to decide. Also, no religious education; at all. Learn whatever religion you want at home, paid for by yourself.

    Similarly, when you sell or rent a house, the police must truly verify the antecedents of the person. There has to be closer and yes; much more “invasive” policing, for all communities. You have to make sure that right from the home minister down to the constable, everyone is accountable for law and order. If the human rights guys have a problem, tell them to shove it.
    Believe me, seggregation and ghettoization is creating an even bigger problem. The whole Jamia area is virtually out of bounds for the state. Goons run it. It was not always like this. I have been going there for the last 30 years.
    Enlightened Muslims? Oh, there are several I have met and known and befriended. They are ordinary people like you and me; educated middle class, anxious to do well for themselves and their children.
    If you want to follow some really erudite and liberal writing by Muslim Indians, follow Mohib Ahmad, Kaleem Kawaja, Asghar Ali Engineer, Sadia Dehlvi.. and since you like MJ Akbar (one of my favourites too).. I used to like Saeed Naqvi as well. I have not come across him for more than 5 years now.
    For sheer intellectual brilliance from the Muslim blogosphere, you have to cross the border and follow the Pak Tea House blog. They write excellent English, their scholarship is of such high order as to be evident (not derivative). I am in awe.
    On your points about the lack of leadership in their community, I am in total agreement. Weak leadership ensures inability to confront the demons within and make real efforts at self-improvement. Which is why, finally my optimism loses to pessimism on most days.

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Zia,
    Not tried creative writing? As the snooty Brits ask, “where did you go to school, sir?”

    That apart, I can see you are hurting. Hurting bad. I am sure you can do a better job at sarcasm; but, can you direct it well enough?

    Try once more; without the personal attacks. Leave those for true liberals like Bobby to handle.
    You did promise this attempt will be “one first time”; I can’t wait.; for the “one second time”.

    You know, cutting beards and shedding burquas and wearing a tilak are easy options. Does not count for much, in the way of introspection. You are so, like my daughter says, 20th century!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Amy
    Amy

    You said: As long as u deny the genocide, the role of Modi, and u talk about a lie what do u think we are, idiots.

    So unless everyone accepts that it was a genocide with Modi having a role in it, macabre tales will continue to be invented and they would be TRUE ? Meaning till the time Mr Modi is not convicted, you have a fundamental and exclusive right to say anything but the Truth?

    You said: U want us to prove all this to u for what so u will give out justice or sympath. WE dont need it from esp people like u.We dont need to prove anything to anyone coz everyone knows.

    Sid was anyway not supposed to be dispensing justice so when you used the word “U”, who did you mean? The Judiciary? or what?

    Since everyone knows and there is no need to prove anything and given that the perpetrators of “Genocide” are still free, what do you propose to do now?
    Step into the court room and say, “My Lord what proof? Everyone Knows. Why should we give proofs? Everyone knows. Just pronounce the sentence.

    Ooh. Wait a minute, are you talking about the “Truth” that Mr. ‘S’ (above I think comments under sl no 4) was referring to – something like Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.”?

    Did I read you right? Do let me know

    Or take my suggestion – step out for some time, watch some MTV or still better play some game, go watch a movie. (I can also do the same, but you know that won’t solve the problem of my low IQ) You can rejoin the debate later. Just a small request be considerate to our low IQs and explain your points in simpler sentences or words.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Live in hope (me being hurt…?). yes I am so 20th century. Your daughter and you seem to have had the benefit of good 21 century education, you see. I have just studied Farsi and Urdu and some 1400 year old text.

    By the way, I do not believe walking on crutches, but after Bobby’s responses, I don’t think I need to add anything more. But the point is, it been a long time. You have been sized and judged. And yes, one advice: creative writing can be kept for another time. Your mocking skills do not give you much time for thoughts on real things like inter-faith dialogue. I think I should end here. Have a meeting with Amartya Sen, you see. And lest you should think I am hurting.

    Anil Reply:

    Another set of nonsense.. SIMI’s agenda is too bring mizam-e-mustafa Simi aids LET

    Now find me even single socaleld hindu organization who works in line with terrorists and whose agenda is to change the nizam of India..

    Scores of Maoist organizations are banend and they are fully hindu majiority again they threaten india and indian constitution..

    [Reply]

    Anil Reply:

    Indian muslims voted in mass for Pakistan just because they could not move unlike their richbrethren doesn;t condone their support for pakistan.. When Jinnah gave clarion call fo pakistan each and every muslim legislative seat went to Muslim Leageu in 1946 election.. Incidentally same Jinnah came cropper when he had nto given call of islamic state carved out of india..

    Fine youchose to stay back and now are tryignt o eb an indian but please do nto give wrong picture of history..

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    Same story revolving around with nothing coz the minds are so closed and narrow reflecting only hatred,now I understand why they say,” Hateing is an art , love is simply divine.I dont see any spiritual side or argument coz u cant compare two very different belives only respect them as they are!!!

    amy Reply:

    1.That’s true and a fact if u dident know in politics today is ,It economic and political power that counts in a unipolar globalized world order ,besides military. REad Time, Nesweek or political journals.
    All out War is declared illegal in International Law so u have ethnic-religious conflicts within borders today and some outside.

    2.u are unaware of political termnology where a failed state mean unstable and failing on democratic parameters.There are UN, NGO, reports and it filed for bankrupcy in the 90s.Failed state was used by Naom Chomsky ,search him.

    3.Plz visit some of our neighbours ,Africa,Australia and a host of other countries infact I was part of a delegation that taught the South Africans the Indian SME model, to realise the strenght of our economy.The amount of technical aid India provides through ITECD etc. Look at India politically in the last 5 5-10 ys performance.Is it the same,hell no!Self suffeciency in satellight or space or nuclear energy etc is what I meant,Why are u so pessimistic celebrate ur achievements even though there will always more to achive which has no end.We are part of the globalized world but how sucessfully we intergrate is our contribution.

    6.If u dont want to be slaped then get the security in order not point fingers and the fact remains it’s not always muslims its the current islamophobia which is well documented everywhere.Everywhere civil rights activists are are questioning the treat to security.

    7. what is wekipedia -contribution of anyone who wants to add info to a concept or term,its not necessarily authentic or cannot be challenged. And ur not an authority to declare anyone traitor either ,no where are they disrepected like u claim.Its common knowledge dont depend on certain version of history.

    8 u have to get ur historical facts right urself the league did not win the votes or the election that was the delimma of the party ,it had the ideological base but not the support of masses and that is why the riots started ;Jinnah was not a mass leader like his contemporaies Nehru, Gandhi or even Mualana Azad.
    Too bad India dident become a Hindu nation then ,the descion of our destiny is made. Even Jinnah never made Pak const or state an Islamic one that was done only later, we all know how englisied he was.Good coz India is where it is because its not as a theocratic state ,what would have been the survival rate of such a state in the world ? Like-Taliban!

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    @Amy,
    1. I asked for facts, not journals. Come up with some facts and logic showing that military power is useless, I may care. So, in your view, Gov of India has “economic and political power that counts”. Even Pakistan does not give a damn to it’s demands. If that is your definition of power then…well..I am speechless.
    “All out War is declared illegal in International Law ” – hmm….really…ok, hang George Bush. Oh while you are at it, hang Obama too. His army is fighting in Afghanistan.
    2. I have read Noam Chomsky pretty well. One difference between you and him is that he is pretty fearless when speaking the truth while truth is acceptable to you as long as it conforms to your viewpoint.
    2a. According to Wiki, here is a definition of a failed state:
    ——————————————————————————————————————————-
    The term failed state is often used by political commentators and journalists to describe a state perceived as having failed at some of the basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government. In order to make this definition more precise, the following attributes, proposed by the Fund for Peace, are often used to characterize a failed state:

    loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein,
    erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions,
    an inability to provide reasonable public services, and
    an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————-
    Going by this
    1. I can see that India has already lost it’s territory to Pakistan (POK),
    2. a vast region is currently lawless under separatists and Maoists,
    3. in India, public service is a big joke
    4. India is unable to interact with enemies like China/Pakistan in it’s own terms.
    Refute this argument please.
    3. “I was part of a delegation” – ok, I get it. You are the elitist campus liberal (or journalist or IAS officer) getting funded on tax money. So you have the responsiblity to celebrate the successes. Go ahead. Others who do the hard work knows how many more miles we have to go before we can sleep.
    4. “Everywhere civil rights activists are are questioning the treat to security” – yes, I know. That is the tragedy. They are not questioning the extremists. That establishes one thing: security is bad, extremism is good. Spare me please.
    5. Wikipedia? You have established your lack of clear knowledge about collaborative systems in web. I guess Time/Newsweek do not have an article on this yet. Wikipedia is a collective knowledge base. If anyone can contribute then anyone can claim that the content is wrong. And those claims are disputed by a team of editors (who, BTW, was not registered with VHP or Muslim League). If the articles are not disputed they are clearly marked. So it is not unauthorized content. At least more authorized than Time where not even peer reviews are done.
    6. “u have to get ur historical facts right urself” – Thank you for this honesty. Do this thought experiment:
    A group of people who does not have a public support wanted to divide this country. They raised slogan “ladke lenge xxxx-stan”. Would anybody be interested?
    Here is what happened in 1947: Muslim League raised slogan “ladke lenge pakistan”. Roads in a big city got filled with blood by the people who uttered this slogan. And then a separate country was given and a lot many people became refugees!!! I guess there is no doubt in your mind that those people who planned this division got it by luck. It is the mistake of the refugees that they became refugees!!! And the bloodbath must be done by a hired army or worse it can be a conspiracy from the Hindus, right? After all those guys did not have any public support.
    Seriously, are you guys this innocent? Two big muslim liberals in our country’s history was Mr. Jinnah and Iqbal. One was an anglophile barrister who divided this country (after he lost his election in 1937). The other one wrote “Saare jahan se achha” without mentioning muslim at all. But later he himself proposed two nation theory. Liberalism is such an attractive proposition after all.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Read Iqbal’s actaul tarana when he converted from Iqbal to Allama Iqbal. You should watch Zaid hamid’s interview to see what kind of religious nut Iqbal was.

    Here is the Muslim tarana composed by Iqbal and parody of same by Indian lyricist Sahir.
    http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4797/misc_post_3.txt

    Rajeev Reply:

    Here is Iqbal’s communal tarana.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarana-e-Milli

    cheen o Arab hamaraa hindostaaN hamaara

    Muslim hain hum; watan hai saara jahaaN hamaara

    tawheed ki amaanat seenoN meiN hai hamaarey

    aasaaN naheeN miTaana naam o nishaaN hamaara

    dunyaN ke but-kadoN meiN pahlaa woh ghar khudaa kaa

    hum uskey paasbaaN haiN woh paasbaaN hamaara

    tayghon key saaye meiN hum, pal kar jawaaN huwey haiN

    khanjar hilaal kaa hai qawmi nishaaN hamaara

    maghrib ki waadiyoN meiN guunji azaaN hamaari

    thamata na thaa kisee se sayl rawaaN hamaara

    baatil se dabney waaley ay aasmaaN nahiN hum

    sau baar kar chukaa hai tu imtihaaN hamaara

    ay gulsitaan e andalus! woh din haiN yaad tujh ko

    thaa teri DaaliyoN par jab aashiyaaN hamaara

    ay mawjey dajlah! tu bhi pahchaanti hai hum ko

    ab tak hai tera daryaa afsaana khwaaN hamaara

    ay arz e paak! teri hurmat pey kaT marey hum

    hai khooN teri ragoN meiN ab tak rawaaN hamaara

    saalaar e kaarwaaN hai Mir e Hijaz apnaa

    is naam se hai baaqi aaraam e jaaN hamaara

    Iqbal kaa taraana baang e daraa hai goyaa

    hotaa hai jaadah paymaa phir kaarwaaN hamaara

    [edit] English Translation
    China and Arabia is ours, India is ours

    We are Muslims and the whole world is our homeland

    The treasure of tawhid is in our hearts,

    It is not easy to wipe out our name and mark.

    The first house we have liberated from idols is the Ka’abah;

    We are its custodians, and It is our protector

    We have grown up in the shadows of swords,

    Our mascot is the crescent shaped dagger

    Our prayer calls have reverberated in the valleys of the west,

    The force of our flow could not be stopped by anyone

    O the skies! we will not be subdued by falsehood,

    You have tried (our steadfasteness) a hundred times!

    O, the garden of Andalusia! do you remember those days -

    When our abode was the nest on your branches?

    O, the waves of Tigris! surely, you recognize us -

    Your river tells our tales even to this day

    O, the pure land! we have bled and died for your honor,

    Our blood flows in your veins until now

    The leader of our caravan, is the Prince of Hijaz (Muhammad)

    It is his name that keeps our heart in comfort and peace.

    Iqbal’s song is a clarion call

    For the caravan to rise and continue the journey once more

    Sid Reply:

    That is such a news to me!!!! I never knew this.

    Sid Reply:

    Oh, the first line is a bomb:
    “China and Arabia is ours, India is ours” – looks like a jihadi’s wishlist. If Iqbal has any time apart from attending 72 virgins and having pain killer (cause and effect) in the jannat, he would glad to see that half of India is already theirs!!! I guess China got this pretty much right depsite a strong track record of human rights violation. Their approach is a devil’s alternative.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Actually every muslim on this subcontinent is potential Iqbal.

    1. When they are young and live among non-muslim, they have ‘Saare Jahan se accha’ mentality.
    2. When they grow up and mix with fellow muslims, they start chanting VICTIMHOOD (like Zia).
    3. When they go abroad and live with their own kind, they start turning into Iqbal. Their vision changes to pan-islamism.

    The Indian muslims in malasia are perfect example of this change. They just distanced themselves from non-muslim Indians on the issue of discrimination in malasia.

    Anil Reply:

    Iqbal writes in Shikwa

    Ajmi khum hai tou kya, ma’y tou Hijazi hai meri
    Naghma Hindi hai tou kya, la’y tou Hijazi hai meri
    ( He certainly is not taking pride in hindi here)

    amy Reply:

    Oh my God, plz, hit , run,fight from any fly called muslim coz ur so paronoid u just might be killed accidently by a car but ur’ll still claim it was a muslim,what mentality so scard u dont even need a getto to live it is within u!! Gosh! But then these are compliments with regards for all the best to continue to live in fear and phobia.

    suparna Reply:

    this amy is mad… nothing can change her views.. i think she too is a muslim but pretending to be a hindu to avoid facing wrath of all hindus

    amy Reply:

    Sid

    Ur utter ignorance in political science cannot be remidied but surely a remidial course is essential.What Im saying is today military power is not as predominantly important as econ and political for a country to have a say.U can seach it anywhere Fukayama, huntington,fadeed zakarya,he world is flat etc…….
    American intervention is war on terorism along with UN and a multinational force not just in Afganistan but anywhere in the world .

    Truth does not need to conform to my truth or ur we are not talking of religious belifs but u dont accept it;if only u could read constituent assembly debates or even the preamble which is linked in this article by Zia ,it would shock ur truth and u will forget ur though “experiment” ,why should I?

    Because ur such a fan of wekipedia no wonder ur truth is unstable and keeps changing .Neither are u a political commentator to define the parameter of India;s failure as a state ( why not try it as ur Phd topic) such jobs are not a single line sentence like ur but tedious job that need political correctedness too,Even then just compare the same for Pak , a worse sit than India!!

    Thaank u for the lack of faith u show in India at least we are clear which side of the fence we are standing on and u claim to be a wellwisher.”we have miles before we sleep”, to ur vision, distrust, dismay.It’s good to work hard but without a clear purpose only we are loser, like we are a nuclear sufficient country but cant suppy electricity to our janta.

    A civil socity encouages freedom of speech and is not selective to one particular type of speech only.It depends on which side u see the problem from to understand who is extremist u must realise, u cannot be selfish to own up the whole civil right movement .

    Sid Reply:

    @Amy
    “U can seach it anywhere Fukayama, huntington,fadeed zakarya,he world is flat etc…….” – I asked for facts and logic derived from them. My life does not revolve around political commentators, liberal journals and political science theories. I would like to observe/read about facts and draw logical conclusions from them. Your entire response is a soup of multiple terms that can often be derived from many journals. No facts, no examples, no logical conclusions. You have avoided answering all such questions for which you have no answer.
    “Because ur such a fan of wekipedia no wonder ur truth is unstable and keeps changing .Neither are u a political commentator to define the parameter of India;s failure as a state ” – My life is not so devoid of meaningful goals that I have to do a phd for this topic. If you have the capablities to refute my points then do so. Otherwise responding to you is a waste of my effort.
    “Even then just compare the same for Pak , a worse sit than India” – I am not Pak obsessed like you, I am India obsessed. I need to see my country as best, so when my country gets compared to Pakistan and declared a better place than Pakistan then I consider this an insult. Can we compare India with US or China and try to see where we stand? Seeing Pakistan going down is hardly a comfort because we are not doing far better.
    “A civil socity encouages freedom of speech and is not selective to one particular type of speech only.” – classic liberal problem. When you do not have anything valuable to say, you would put words into your opponent’s mouth. Now when did I say that freedom of speech is not important? I started this debate from a completely different topic and now you will drag me to a completely unnecessary debate of freedom of speech.
    At the end, I realise that there is no point debating you. You not only failed to defend your points but also with each response you come up with new points that makes no sense when taken together all of your responses. At least Bobby’s responses are more to the point. Thank you for this discussion and I wish you learn something practical and valuable lessons from life apart from your political theories. Oh, BTW, you would regret to know that all the great powers in this world still invest heavily on military power and at least in USA’s case their political/economic powers are safe because they have virtually nearly undefeatable military power.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Sid,

    I am afraid your conclusion is same as mine. I had anyway wasted some time to check and respond but you have already done the job. But anyway, I am posting my originally intended response here:

    Oooh la laa….

    Wretched me, have yielded to the temptation again. So I break my oath for a moment and respond to Bobby.
    But for the record, this must be reiterated that long ago I had submitted myself to the sheer depth of Bobby’s Insights on the subjects of this blog. To the point now:

    So, there was a “report” a few days after by the SIT itself, and what did it say?

    1. Can someone help me understand why is this “Report” considered to be from SIT itself? My low IQ tells me that the Report was from some HT journalist. Of course there were statements from SIT.

    2. Let us see what are SIT’s statement in “quotes”
    “The findings of the report have concentrated on the investigations into the cases and it was not our business to indulge in the blame game and level allegations,” a senior SIT official said.

    3. See further: “Asked about the leaked contents of the report, the SIT chief, R. K. Raghavan told Hindustan Times that “he could not confirm whether the leaked contents were true. “I am answerable only to the Supreme Court. The alleged reported leaks appear to be inspired by dubious motives. I cannot confirm such claims. The act is highly condemn able,” Raghavan said.

    4. Rest of this “Report” where SIT is supposed to have “slammed” the charge of tutoring of witnesses is not SIT’s statement. Unless ” sources from SIT” are considered to be SIT itself.

    If the above means what you (Bobby) implies, then take a bow, you have reinforced my belief in your absolute and total enlightenment as also my low IQ.

    Another interesting bit – the Court termed the leak as a “betrayal of the faith reposed in those to whom the report was allowed access”.

    However, I have to strongly diagree with you on your conclusion (your last para). The correct conclusion is as follows:
    Not only all Hindus are Bigots, they also have low IQs!!

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Amy
    Is it True? Did Nostradamus say so?

    But that does not make him a genius. It does not take a genius to predict that the world will end when Muslims rule it.
    Your name sounds like that of a female (apologies either way). If true, then it would certainly take a genius to understand why are you so happy about that.

    BTW You have any more info on this like timing and all, if you do tell us so that we can also apply for admission to “Life with Celestial Babes” college

    amy Reply:

    re-read my post ,I’m not waitng for u to tell me the truth or dispense justice coz u cant, who is accountable and responsible for all the lives lost,property destroyed etc is what Im intrested in ? Is that simple enough? with Nostradamus (search him too) I was just raking up ur insecurity as a taunt,silly u!!

    Amy Reply:

    where is ur response to who is accountable? still thinking?

    Mitra Reply:

    OK, I will reply to some of the responses to my post- particularly by Sid and SKS Mumbai on Thursday!

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid and SKS,

    Firstly about my claiming that the report was by the SIT. I apologize for what was clearly a wrong sentence. I meant a report based on calrifications from SIT

    Bobby Reply:

    Some how, my post immediately after this one got moderated out. So I am rewriting it. The earlier post got sent by mistake before i could add further stuff.

    Firstly, lets get this in perspective. This is not the first time that Setelvad is being attacked and such attempts have been made earlier as well. This was during the Best Bakery case. There were allegations that she had given inducements to some of the witness to make false claims. The charges were leveled by Zahira Sheikh. The supreme court later gave her a clean chit.

    Now coming to the point that Sid is making that Setelvad had got a “rebuttal from Gujrat HC once”, well Firstly I dont think carrying out an independent and parallel investigation of a case can be such a bad thing.
    But more to the point, what Sid says is only half the story. The SC had later strongly reprimanded the Gujarat HC about their statement on Setelvad, and had expunged their remarks. You can find this online here.

    “http://www.cjponline.org/best/scteesta.pdf”

    Just to quote some parts from the above:

    “It is beyond comprehension as to how the learned
    Judges in the High Court could afford to overlook such a basis and vitally
    essential tenet of “Rule of Law” that no one should be condemned unheard and
    risk themselves to be criticized for injudicious approach and/or render their
    decisions vulnerable for challenge on account of violating judicial norms and
    ethics…………We direct that the observations of the High Court,
    as against the appellants quoted above shall stand expunged and deleted from
    the judgment of the High Court, and consequently must be treated as having
    never existed or being part of the High Court judgment.”

    Now coming to the point of Sid’s and SKS’s post.

    Lets look at the facts first.

    On April 14th several newspapers including the TOI, claimed that the SIT report had implicated Setalvad for fabricating witnesses in the Gujarat riots case.

    On April 15th, a reply was given by the CJP of which Setalvad is a member. The reply can be found here:

    http://www.sacw.net/article827.html

    The main point they make is ..to quote them…

    “The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court has specifically not made public….”

    On april 16th, the TOI reporter responded by repeating that he stands by his report.

    On 22nd april, HT carried the report containing clarifications from the SIT. Now since the SIT cannot reveal any part of the report, It refused to deny or agree with the leak. It however said that the motives behind the leak look dubious. Also
    the HT report claimed that sources from the SIT had unoffically claimed that SIT had not made any such charges against her.

    Now, in the light of all these and taking into account that the report is still not out, the benefit of doubt clearly goes to Setalvad, especially in light of the fact that such hollow charges have been thrown against her before, as I mentioned.

    Now lets look at what the TOI reporter had to say in his 16th April TOI article.

    It says that some witnesses had come to the SIT team with a written report, which was written by Setalvad and their advocate, and duly signed by the witnesses. The SIT team refused to accept this report, since they only accept reports after due interrogation. The witnesses claimed that the reports was entirely theirs even though, it was written by Setalvad. Which means that they agree with everything in it.

    It also says that there was some discrepency about some of the names of the accused between witnesses and the names appearing in the written report they carried.

    It’s pretty obvious, that based on just this article, there is simply NO WAY one can come to the conclusion of fabrication, and that therfore there is NOT a SHRED OF EVIDENCE against Ms Setalvad.

    Again given the past history of the hindutva brigade, this will also prove to be yet another attempt to mislead the public.

    Sid Reply:

    @Bobby,
    Actually, it’s you who told the half of the story in the last comment. I had to dig further about the dates and come up with the TOi reporter’s response. Apparently your high IQ missed it. What surprised me was the title of the article in HT. The title at a glance tells any reader that SIT has denied those “reported” facts. Actually it did not. Ht reporter has to find an “unnamed insider” in SIT who confirmed the denials to counter the leaks of report in TOI.

    “The witnesses claimed that the reports was entirely theirs even though, it was written by Setalvad.” – let us get this straight. X is a witness and whatever Y and his advocate writes, X signs as a statement. That too without a third witness. SIT was right in denying the acceptance. Unless off course one accepts Setalwad as a non partisan activist, there is bound to be partisan impact in the testimony. Look at who funded her organization – Congress and CPI(M). She is sort of a political mercenary whose PR and media manipulation skills are available for any so called liberal group with enough fund.

    CJP’s rebuttal? It is Teesta’s organization. There are lots of credibility it seems. We have to accept that there is no evidence against her because she or her organization says so.
    “Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may amount to contempt of court …” – There is something called freedom of speech and media is supposedly the fourth column of democracy. Just because an NGO says contempt of court, it can not be the contempt of court.

    “It also says that there was some discrepency about some of the names of the accused between witnesses and the names appearing in the written report they carried.” – See, these witnesses are just so clumsy. They are submitting proof to the court and they can not write their names. So what? They were grief stricken, were not they? It was Teesta’s holy responsibility to write statements and then get it signed. We, who go by the proof has to take her on the basis her words. Otherwise we are hindutva wadis, supporter of that “murderous Advani”.

    Hey Bobby, any luck with that Tehelka tape that you have lost? I mean, the one that can send Modi to jail? I guess, that Modi dude has some sneaky ba***rds looking for that tape. Just send me, I will do a public interest litigation because it seems that you can not. If you can not send such a tape, well, what can I say. You liberals with “High IQ” are just so predictable.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    “Actually, it’s you who told the half of the story in the last comment. I had to dig further about the dates and come up with the TOi reporter’s response…”

    NO! the second TOI report is also before the HT article…not a later date. The HT article i linked is several days later to that.!!!

    “Actually it did not…”

    It actually did so, to the extent that it was allowed. The HT article quotes a senior SIT official as saying:

    ” “The findings of the report have concentrated on the investigations into the cases and it was not our business to indulge in the blame game and level allegations,” a senior SIT official said.”

    What this clearly says is that the SIT did not make any such allegations regarding any individual…everything else therefore is the free imagination and forced interpretation of the TOI reporter, which is also obvious from the 16th april report.

    “CJP’s rebuttal? It is Teesta’s organization…”
    Even thought you find that surprising, that is exactly the point. When you accuse X of something, its X and not A, B, C who will reply.

    “Just because an NGO says contempt of court, it can not be the contempt of court…”

    My dear Sid, why make a fool of yourself at every juncture? Do you really like the experience?? In that same HT article the statement of the SC is given:
    “when the Supreme Court termed the leak as a “betrayal of the faith reposed in those to whom the report was allowed access”. ”

    There is a good chance of this being contempt of court, if in any way the report was leaked by any of the parties involved, while the case is still going on.

    As I said, people give half truths, as you did about the Gujarat HC reprimand of Setalvad, which was later expunged and rebutted by the SC, (which you conveniently ignored) and people also have tried to make false cases before in which she has been proved innocent. This is yet another failed attempt at that.

    amy Reply:

    Im not convincing u but telling u to update urself in world politics and if u view, opinions alone as important and not what is researched, documented and debated its ur choice becaue then opinions change and can be refuted .Why is China powerful, is it bcoz it has the greatest army or because the it has a bigger trade deficit with US Europe and it is their major concern which is why India is being used ( more ousoursing contracts compard to China) and balance the power axis in the region.Why is Iran feared ,becoz it does use its missiles against Israel for scoring political points. What logic do u want in this?Watch fareinhiegh 9/11 as to why US went into Iraq and how contracts in oil,infrastucture security were distributed among countries sending the multinational foces.

    I hate to get into the mud when u bring down India,but dont u know Pak has a hide and seek rxnship with democracy on a regular basis alternating with military regimes.The recent impeachment of Chief justice and reinstatement,the regular prescence of US military to fight the Soviets to Taliban , the dependency on foreign aid,and their claim on Kashmir and internal ethnic conflicts btw Punjabi,Baloch,Sindi or Muhajirs most certainly puts India better off;infact there is no comparision.Like they say,U can be friends only among equals and not unequals.Anyway what a great statemet from u” when my country get compared to Pak declared better place I consider this an insult.We are not doing far better and u want to compete with China!!!!I really find this funny.
    Freedom of speech was brought in when u wrote,thuth is acceptable to you as long as it conforms to ur viewpoint. I can see ur point of view which i q but u cant see mine and accuse me of living in single dimension when infact u are doing it!!!!!!!!!!!!I guess ur approach is lower than I thought like a layman’s prejudice without pride.

  • Sid

    @Bobby,
    “Here is an important lesson for you while you grow up from your current adolescent stage: Stop looking at people as monoliths.” – yes, Osama Bin Laden was trained as an engineer, religeousleader, rich man and mass murderer. Your point is…..? Oh, Bobby grandpa, you do not even know me, try to eliminate the line of personal attack when you are arguing in a logical discussion. Present some logic and fact please.
    “Dalits would not be able to live with caste hindus, because of the oppression and injustice they have undergone over centuries” – oppression and injustice do not create mistrust, they create anger and frustration. If they look similar to you then go back to basic English class. A course in basic psychology might help too.
    “By the way you have a pretty good at making things up” – Can you tell me what I made up. Refute my arguments, you liberals are pretty good at obfuscating your logic. So you really know some muslims who protested partition? Can I see some historical documentation please? If you can present that then reply again else write script for a Nandita Das movie.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    He is no liberal but a typical topiwala fundoo.

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    These people doesnot have enough mental capabilities to think. Its not their fault (their god made them such)

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Your point is…..?….”

    The point my dear Sid, I thought was pretty clear. Of course I did not factor in your relatively low IQ when i came to that conclusion. In any case, To put it in more words. When you or others like you suggest “Muslims” are not trust worthy, or “Muslims” behave in a manner quite differently from the rest of humanity, it sounds absurd, simply because the label “Muslim” like other labels of its kind, gives almost zero information about the person in question. It does not tell you whether he is educated, it does not tell you his opinions, whether he is a kind person or a miser, whether he has the mentality of a “Osama Bin Laden” or that of some one like “Abdul Sattar Edhi”.

    Therefore it sounds stupid when you say that you can come to a conclusion like they are all untrustworthy, just by that one label “muslim”. But I should not expect more from a person, who sees those butchers Modi and Advani as innocent, and a person of integrity like Ms Setelwad as “untrustworthy”. Just shows your amazingly naive discerning faculties.

    Secondly another point i forgot to add in my last mail, was about this telling example of hypocrisy on your part.

    You wrote:

    “where is the condemnation in that community?..”

    This was in the context of Muslims condemning terrorist actions (I am neglecting the fact here that this by the way is not true). Interestingly in the same post you also write the following:

    “Rajiv and Sanjeev are not my handles , I can not see any reason to own their remarks.”

    And you are right. You are not responsible for what those two Nuts said or did not say. But surely you see the hypocrisy when you demand people sharing the label “muslim” to disown and condemn actions by individuals “who are not their handles”.

    But you wont see it because you have not come to the conclusions you arrived at after honest analysis, you came to those conclusions, after conveniently turning a blind eye on some facts and looking at only some others.

    [Reply]

    Anil Reply:

    Some liberal might have protested partition btu when ti came to voting against parittion those liberals were missing in action consequently JInnah won all the muslims seats after the clarion call of division of India.. Just because due to lack of transportation facility all of them didn;t move to pakistan their support for pakistan can;t be shoved under carpet.. noone is saying they must be barbequeued for what they did in past but the attempt of pinko historians to brush that part of history and claim that there was not much support for pakistan is a blatant lie

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    @Bobby the smart,
    I appologise for having such a low IQ and forgetting to point it out when I began the discussion. Having agreed that you have a high IQ with lack of civility and respect in your argument, here are my points:

    1. “It does not tell you whether he is educated, it does not tell you his opinions, whether he is a kind person or a miser, whether he has the mentality of a “Osama Bin Laden” or that of some one like “Abdul Sattar Edhi”.” – Thanks for this bright clarification. So when I have a muslim neighbour I do not know whether I have a neightbour with mindset of “Osama Bin Laden” or “Abdul Sattar Edhi”. What would be safest approach to save my family in this case? Sell the house or stay and accept a good probablity of being buchered some day because someone wants to go to Jannat?

    2. “But I should not expect more from a person, who sees those butchers Modi and Advani as innocent” – Forgive my low IQ and a matching memory, when did I say that? I asked you to present the proof. Did tehelka has it on tape that Modi/Advani ordered the riots? Present it. Just because NDTV say so, this argument would not cut it. Prove it in the court and throw him into the jail. As I said before, I am not a VHP/RSS appologist.

    Even I can say that Bobby is a stupid liberal. Just because I say it, this does not have to be the truth. Similarly everything that TOI or NDTV says does not have to be true. There has to be ample proof.

    3. “….a person of integrity like Ms Setelwad…” – how long would you take to understand that you are a fool? She is not a Ms Setelwad. She is married. Person of integrity? Hardly. Even the court has to order her not to interfere in the riot investigation.

    4. “when you demand people sharing the label “muslim” to disown and condemn actions by individuals” – A community is represented by it’s leaders. There are leaders in this community who has blamed the entire majority community for what few Hindus have done during riots, conveniently forgetting what happened in Godhra. There are leaders in this community who declare a crore worth of reward to kill a danish cartoonist who allegedly defamed the muslim prophet. So one may expect the leaders to codemn the Jihadists when they blew civilians in the name of Islam. Do not they stand for Islam? So why do not I see the condemnation?

    Mr. Bobby the intelligent man, why are not you answering the other questions posed by this hypocrite, bigoted, low IQ man?

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    Also, please ask Ms Setelwad who was her husband and what she did in Gujrat. This is an excerpt from 14th April 2009 Times Of India:

    “….It was found that they were tutored. The affidavits were handed over to them by Ms Setalvad. They had not actually witnessed the riot…”

    This is what SC appointed SIT found during Gujrat riot. manufacturing the testimony? In my low IQ, such an action is not consistent with “person of integrity”. So the conclsuion is that, SC, SIT and times of India are very much biased against this very liberal pro-left “person of integrity”. I stand by my ultimate conclusion: you are a fool and you do not know it.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    This little episode itself shows that I was right in calling you a person with low IQ. What you didnot wriet or read probably was the report a few days after by the SIT itself., as you can see here from an April 22nd 2009 report on HT.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=954c5708-79ee-47d0-8272-795b79946cd5&Headline=Gujarat+riots+witnesses+not+tutored:+SIT

    amy Reply:

    Sid,

    Not so intelligent,

    1.How far and long will u run from ur neighbour from fear.There comes a day when everyone must face their fears and overcome them.No one will tell or teach u ,one just has to do it ,face up to it ,there are no two ways about it.And it begins with communication; respect,curtousy,accomodation and sharing our past as well as our future because the two are now married, there will be up and downs every house has them but the marriage must continue even if for nothing then for the children’s sake or our future .Otherwise the q u raise are the same for the muslims,how do u overcome distrust,any stategy,idea ,see how difficult that is, now that is the challenge and u cant change or avoid it?

    2.Are u saying there is not enough evidence in Gujarat riots when for the first time it was filmed and reported by the media.Thousands of FIR and cases are not registered and summiraly dismissed , search it ,there is a lot u will find , dont worry its nothing to be ashmed of. Where is the political will? Did u read about Ms.Maya Kodnani Higher edu Minister in Gujarat who led mobs to rioting absconding, and anticipatory bail cancelled. Why not face charges or get aquited.Be patient .

    3. Have u head of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan,who opposed partition and Jamidat ul eulama i Hind, All India Momin Conference and Ahrar of Punjab and all muslims whose families were divided, and the forefathers of present Muslims who gave up their lives in riots and even just choose to stay back in those hard times all opposed partition.

    4, u continue to blame Muslims as the sole and sworn enemy for ‘blowing up” bombs in India, the pic is not exactly as simple,we have had many seperatist movements like Sikhs after partion,and continue to face them like maoist,and there is a danger in the future too from southern states .

    5.I dont expect u to respect any human rights activists like Teesta Setlvad whose father was the famous judge and husband Mr.Anand works for the same cause or I.A.S officer Harsh Mandar who resigned after Gujarat riots.They are called secularist while Muslims are called fundamentalist .Law is a game of words dont u know the truth is sometimes something else or swayed somewhere else like in Jeescia Lal case etc.Evidence alone does not tell the story but the cirumstances too.

    6.So u claim u do not distrust dalits what is the hue and cry about reservation, or the corruopt practises of Mayawati which all politics before also did and continue or the fear of an Obama era coming to India if she wins and become PM.Surely they dont trust u and as Ambedkar said, as long as Hinduism will exist so will the caste system.And so will the discrimination.Plz learn to repect ur religion and it cannot become like Islam with a central system, there are pro and cons of both no point argueing about them when we all have one country, one world and one life to live and nowhere else to go.

  • Amy

    Sid
    As long as u deny the genocide, the role of Modi, and u talk about a lie what do u think we are, idiots, U want us to prove all this to u for what so u will give out justice or sympathy. WE dont need it from esp people like u.We dont need to prove anything to anyone coz everyone knows , it was not an isolated incident so dont try to defend ur self or ur nonsense.

    [Reply]

    Amit Julka Reply:

    Amy….if you can understand hindi….
    “deewaron se sar phodne ka kucch fayeda nahin”
    It’s no use banging your head against walls…..Trust me,nothing will convince a bigot,hindu or muslim that he is wrong….

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    I use to belive that too but Im sure a lot of people reading are getting very educated about the general accusations of rightist and their responses. The rising tempers show frustration, immaturity and unimagination of the possibilities a strong, united, diverse India could bring. Indians today have different priorities and attitudes to life and solution to problems than say a decade ago.

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    To all you HINDU BIGOTS out there!

    There are so many of you posting comments on Zia’s blog, that I thought I would give a general response to some of the points mentioned most frequently.

    1. Don’t keep talking about what happens in Pakistan/Bangladesh/Saudi Arabia etc. There is a lot of religious fanaticism in these countries, but we don’t have to follow international basket cases like them. We can and should try to build a tolerant, decent society here in India.

    2. Indian Muslims are Indian citizens- and our constitution grants them equal rights as citizens. An Indian Muslim has a lot more common with you than anyone from the Middle East- this point would be obvious if you weren’t so consumed by hatred. There is no reason on earth why Indian Muslims should be held responsible for bad things happening in other Muslim countries- just like as a Hindu I am not responsible for what other Hindus are doing in Nepal- its their business. Its funny, you guys are so quick to level vile, cheap accusations of disloyalty against Indian Muslims without any evidence, at the same time you accuse them of not being patriotic! On the one hand you are saying Indian Muslims don’t belong here, they should go to Pakistan- and then you are complaining that they are not sufficiently loyal to India!

    3. Not all Islamic nations are based on intolerance. There are successful modernizing Islamic countries like Turkey, Indonesia etc. Remember we have our own (pretty serious) problems with religious bigotry- which brings me to the next point

    4. Come clean on HINDU TERROR. We have these quasi-fascist Hindu extremist organizations in our country like VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal that have killed thousands of Muslims and Christians over the last two decades in violent riots. If you at least condemned these groups, your complaints about Islamic fanaticism in Muslim countries wouldn’t ring so hollow. Its funny- you are making the claim that Hindus are angels and Muslims are evil fanatics- but many of you are sympathetic to ideologies/organizations that kill innocent children in front of their parents or rape and burn women to death. Angels, indeed!

    5. Some of you have tried to prove by quoting verses from Quran selectively that Islam is an inherently violent religion. And you are followers of a religion Hinduism that legitimizes social oppression/hatred on an umimaginably vast scale through the caste system. Studies reveal that even today there are thousands of villages in India where Dalits are not allowed to enter temples. Lets just admit that all religions (including Islam and Hinduism) have things in them that would conflict witth the values of a modern society today.

    6. Forgetting all this for a second, imagine a foreigner who stumbles upon Zia’s blogs. She sees that Zia is a person who generally adopts a moderate/liberal position, is respectful and is working for a better relationship between Hindus and Muslims- and then she reads the comments by you guys on this blog which are full of vile, cheap hatred against Muslims- not intelligent criticism, but just plain hatred, sterotyping and bigotry. No offense meant- but who are the REDNECKS here, buddy?! Who are the ‘angels’ and who are the ‘evil fanatics’?

    7. One of the great things about India is that considering the last 60 years as a whole, we have (with few exceptions) rejected the extremist/violent politics of the Sangh Parivar. Thats the reason militant religious nationalism has injured our democracy but hasn’t crippled it and we continue to make progress. Eventually, people like Sanjay and others here will have to move to another country with his fellow bigots and create a Hindu version of Saudi Arabia there. Then we can all live in peace!

    [Reply]

    Amit Reply:

    Very good reply, indeed. I congratulate you, Mitra. C’mon guys, we are Indians first. We share the blood that runs in our veins. It’s just chance that some of us are Muslims and some are Hindus. For every Aurangzeb, there has been thousands of Akbars, Zafars, and Ashfaque Ullas. And for every Mir Jafar, there have been thousands of Hindus like the hindu minister of Tipu who betrayed him to the British. How can we have a selective amnesia when it comes to judging our Muslim folks, and how can we not feel ashamed when we hear people defend organizations that breed people like Babu Bajrangi, that worthless cretin, a blot on humanity. I am depressed at some of the comments here.

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    I just wanted to have the honour of writing the 200 post and congratulate all the liberals patriotic Indians on a good job done .All Indians must unite to address the challenges of our times both nationally and internationally.Congratulations on building a new strong India.

    [Reply]

    Mitra Reply:

    Thanks, Amit- the point is that bigots who are trying to demonize a particular group of people based on their religion/caste/race/gender/sexual orientation have a very loud voice. Most of us who don’t have an axe to grind against some of our fellow citizens based on their religion/ethnicity/caste etc and merely wish to get along with our lives prefer to remain quiet- but sometimes you just have to speak out- even though the arguments by some people in this blog makes you sick and not want to visit this anymore. Anyway, have a nice day!

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    @Mitra,
    1. No argument here. I agree.

    2. “….Its funny, you guys are so quick to level vile, cheap accusations of disloyalty against Indian Muslims without any evidence…” – answer me: What percent of Muslim society has condemned SIMI leaders? What has Muslim leaders done so far to address the extremist preaching being done in madrasas? As we know, madrasas are owned by Muslims only. In comparison a Bible school does not teach any intolerance explicitly. Most of the Hindus actually send their children to private/public schools, most of which leaves the religious teaching to the parents. How many of you did not endorse Antulay’s deranged comments immediately after Mubai 26/11? I happened to watch Antulays comments in youtube and I was surprised by outpouring of supporting views from Indian muslims in the comment section. I have never seen the so called “equal citizens” of another country support a conspiracy theory when their nation was under grief and the very system that made them “equal citizen” was under threat. Was it because these “equal citizens” found Pakistan more acceptable than this country? And you would still ask, “why is our loyalty being questioned?” Before I saw Mumbai 26/11 and it’s aftermath, I used to be a liberal and my entire belief system based on secularism crashed. What I was taught looked like a big joke to me. I was a fool and fool I would not remain.

    3. Once again, I can agree. I never felt threatened when I had to go to Ankara. But then what has Indian muslim leaders and community done to address this threat in India?

    4. “Come clean on HINDU TERROR” – I am surprised to read this sentence after point 3. Really? You do not own the bigotry in your religion and yet, Hindus own the bigotry that was a direct result of VHP/Bajrang Dal? These pathetic people did not have many support among Hindus. However, their support is increasing because the liberal leaders have failed to address any concern of the majority community and an increasingly larger crowd is getting attracted to the guys who claimed that they have better answers (regardless of quality of answer). Most people do not understand difference between answer and rhetoric. Zia’s “death of liberalism in Hindu society” happened because it was in making for a long time.

    5. “Lets just admit that all religions (including Islam and Hinduism) have things in them that would conflict witth the values of a modern society today” – yes and no. We have got one after another reformer who tried to remove the negligence and tried to apply the meaning of scripture to Hindu life style. If you ever read anything in our scriptures, casteism was supposed to be a form of work division and was never meant to be hereditary. What is the reform and change in Islam? Once again, where is the condemnation about Jihad? When a Saudi Imam claim that Jihad is fundamentally associated with Islam then one has to accept that it is coming from Horse’s mouth.

    6. “She sees that Zia is a person who generally adopts a moderate/liberal position” – yes, as long as liberalim/moderate position means accepting always that muslims are victims. Zia’s blog is a big endorsement for this attitude. It does not try to solve any problem, helps the problem to continue.

    7. “Eventually, people like Sanjay and others here will have to move to another country with his fellow bigots and create a Hindu version of Saudi Arabia there” – so people like Sanjay are not Indians and do not have “equal rights”? Sanjay and those people who do not believe in Quran or goody-goody perverted liberalism would be forced out? Pretty smart idea for a democracy and all we need a system like “Malayasia” where everything is reserved for Muslim community, right?

    Your last point confirmed my suspicion. Most of the muslim liberals are actually dreamers of Islamic India and non muslim liberals are exactly what Stalin said about western liberals: “Useful idiots”.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Amy

    Ooh So you were just “Teasing me” about my insecurity oooh silly me. And silly me I thought you were stating the Perfect Market Hypothesis!!

    And you know I spent all my time actually searching for online admission applications till I saw your calrifications. Thanks for saving me.

    But as I said Nostradamus can’t claim too much Intelligence by stating world will end when Muslims rule it.

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    So it was a journey from Imran Hashmi to Nostradamus.
    SKS, leave Amy. The lady (I am going by your handle Amy) apparently has a tendency to float from one point after another without answering any reasonable questions.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    Your low IQ is preventing you from recognizing that Amy is a more intelligent and reasonable person than you are and she is making very valid points, which again nuts like you and other crackpots out here, including the very talented “Jeev twins” are not able to comprehend.

    amy Reply:

    Sid,
    U dont even acknowledge when u get the answers to ur q .The retohric,accusation and rightist ideology dished out on this blog through ur jeev twins is’nt worth the pamphlets it comes from, where do u stand?

    amy Reply:

    Thanks Bobby,I grew up overseas and travelled the world all my life,studied in several educational systems and came back to India and redid university and worked. learnt about life in India for many many years and now living out side again .This is just to say, I believe I dont speak from baises but observation and academic discourse.

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    @Amy,
    It is great to know that you have done so and so with your very high IQ. Unfortunately my low IQ could not put me into a better institute than Stanford CS department. Apparently I am a looser in the area of IQ. Your skills at observation, logical reasoning and academic discourse is very evident and clearly seen in your answers. My initial suspicion that you are one of those campus liberals who do not have to face a day to day hardship and risk of a common man is confirmed now.
    @Bobby,
    Your high IQ and a courteous response to all the bigots is very amazing. Keep up the good work till the next attack happen in your city or your neighborhood.

    Bobby Reply:

    “My initial suspicion that you are one of those campus liberals who do not have to face a day to day hardship and risk of a common man is confirmed now….”

    Unlike of course you, who has faced a lot of hardships and days of hunger and poverty like the several ” poor common men” you must have met in……Stanford CS department!…what a joke

    “till the next attack happen….”

    or maybe the next riot….

    Ankit Reply:

    It is the ANTI-HINDU BIGOTS like you who need to answer.

    You guys kept on telling the whole country from the rooftops that terrorists have no religion. The moment someone with a Hindu name was suspected by the police, you guys went back on your own words and started using the word HINDU TERROR with so much glee. Why so much glee, what is the hidden agenda? Why do the terrorists not have any religion now? How come your ilk is so transparent about your bigotry and hypocrisy?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    Psedo intellectual Mitra, please dae to call muslims as terrorist first…u will lose your vote bank

    1.”1. Don’t keep talking about ……………….decent society here in India ”

    Reply: A muslim is a muslim….there is no diffeence between liberal and radical muslim, because when the radical muslim will behead a kafir the libeals will always be mock spectators. Your examples of bangla desh, ****, malayasia……doesnot they have liberal muslims ? they have many but when it comes to action they remain mock spectators. Are they fighting for the cause of minorities….? No, except sympathising.

    What muslims have to do with these counties …..? Ok ask them are they first indian of muslims ?

    Zia, AMINA, BOBBY please reply following quesions:

    1. are you first indian or muslims ?
    2. have muslms not caused ethnic cleansing in KASHMIR?
    3. What should be the solution to kashmir (your personal opinion only) ?

    II. “There are successful modernizing Islamic countries like Turkey, Indonesia etc”

    REPLY :

    yes they are successful. INdonesia did ethnic cleansing of chistians in Timore, Bali bombings, jakata bombings. tuRkey busy doing it on the only ethnic minority that countrry…Kurds. What are your yardsticks madam ?

    iii. “She sees that Zia is a person who generally adopts a moderate/liberal position, is respectful and is working for a better relationship between Hindus and Muslims”

    Reply:

    What Zia is tying to do is just misleading ignorant people. Peolpe who don’t know anything about what is witten in Quan, and what these brainwashed animals ae doing wherever they are in majority.
    I used to be libeal till i didn’t stumble upon their basic teachings in quran and what they are doing with minorities in islamic republics.
    THE day they cross the critcal number (which according to some scholars is 30 percent) they will stat showing tue colurs. Remember malayasia has only 60 percent muslms still sharia.
    that day people lke Zia will happily hide in their groves or remain mock spectators. do you know during 26/11 hostages in taj hotel some turks tourists will calling we are… muslims ….these are the liberal muslims

    and so called librals like u will wear burka or convert to the only true religion.

    There is no harm in calling a spade a spade…and thus making people aware of the impending disasters.

    iv. “An Indian Muslim has a lot more common with you than anyone from the Middle East- this point would be obvious if you weren’t so consumed by hatred. There is no reason on earth why Indian Muslims should be held responsible for bad things happening in other Muslim countries ”

    Reply : why not muslim indians ? why indian muslims ? this will give you reply for your question …..why Indian Muslims should be held responsible for bad things happening in other Muslim countries ?
    why are they ashamed of singing vande matram ?
    why are they ashamed of performing surya namskar if they have common cultural values with other indians ?

    Come out of your vote bank politics of JNU please ?

    [Reply]

    sanjeev Reply:

    xcuse me 4 some typing errors…..my “r” key is not woking properly on my keyboard

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    Oh, since some bright chaps among you(!) will probably raise this point- I thought I would mention it. No one justifies what happened to Kashmiri Pandits in J&K- it is horrendous and needs to be condemned strongly. But it cannot be used as an excuse for killing innocent men, women and children of other religions as the VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal and their supporters on this blog here want to do.

    [Reply]

    Sid Reply:

    “No one justifies what happened to Kashmiri Pandits in J&K- it is horrendous and needs to be condemned strongly” – Oh, really? Point me to a newspaper/magazine/internet site/book where a Muslim leader condemned it. Just one person would do, unless you yourself is a leader.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Sid,

    About SIT and ToI

    For a ‘secular’ and ‘correct’ interpretation of what the SIT official meant when he said: “The findings of the report have concentrated on the investigations into the cases and it was not our business to indulge in the blame game and level allegations,” you will need to buy ‘Webster Dictionary’ and also ‘Wren and Martin” published by ‘Indian Secular Publishers Unlimited” available all over India.

    Don’t waste your time in arguing on this point. See first we have low IQs and then we don’t even have those basic above–mentioned books. Don’t you notice that the report was “only about investigations” and they would NOT level any blame or allegation on “anybody”. Of course the word “anybody” in this dictionary Idoes not include Mr. Modi and others.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    The investigation includes Mr Modi, because his government is a party to the case. Ms Setelavad or the CJP is not.

    The case is between the National Human rights commission and the Government of Gujarat. Therefore when the SIT “sources” are reported as saying that “the report was only about investigations”, that already includes Mr Modi. I am not saying he has been charged, but that he is party to the case and therefore very well could be.

    When you understand this part, then it should be clear to you that the “allegations against anyone” refers to Setalvad and others not party to the “investigations”.

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    I am overwhelmed and choked. Somehow, I get the impression that you did expect (or is it a low IQ induced-illusion) me, a low IQ Bigot, to be able to understand some part of what you wrote.

    Nevertheless, my genetic limitations have not allowed me to reach the same conclusion as you, that …. … … ” It’s pretty obvious, that based on just this article, there is simply NO WAY one can come to the conclusion of fabrication, and that therefore there is NOT a SHRED OF EVIDENCE against Ms Setalvad”

    In your categorical claim of “not a shred of evidence”, there is a small snag, which is : – “based on just this article.” Are you suggesting that other ‘articles’ may reach another conclusion or that we have to conclude on the basis of “just this article”? If yes, then my advice to SID stands (applies to me and other low IQ bigots). Because try as I might, I cannot reach the same conclusion as long as I am dependent on my low IQ.

    Let us try another article reporting the same set of events, i.e. GOG’s counsel making statements against Human right agencies, based on what they claimed to be a part of SIT report and the Court being unhappy about leak etc. Here it is: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/politics/apex-court-objects-to-gujarat-riot-probe-panels-report-leakage_100182744.html. Please note that this is an IANS report so other newspapers may also have it possibly Statesman (I haven’t checked though). Here are some excerpts (capital letters are my emphasis). You should of course read the full link.

    April 21st, 2009 – 9:37 pm ICT by IANS – New Delhi, April 21 (IANS)
    “The Supreme Court Tuesday took strong exception to the leakage of …………………………….Gujarat _ __ _ . .“It is the betrayal of the faith of this court by a person on whom this court had reposed its trust,” a bench of Justice Arijit Pasayat said. “We do not approve of such things,” said the bench, which also included Justice P. Sathasvam and Justice Aftab Alam. It became furious when told about the leakage of the report _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. Condemning the leakage of the report, a copy of which was given to Gujarat government counsel Mukul Rohatgi and senior counsel Harish Salve, Justice Pasayat said: “It is betrayal of the trust of the court and we condemn it in no uncertain terms.” . .. … ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. …… During court proceedings April 13, Gujarat government counsel Mukul Rohatgi, QUOTING FROM THE REPORT, pointed out to the court that the probe panel has rubbished various allegations some NGOs have made against the state government in their lawsuit. The panel has noted that most of these allegations were stereotyped and without any substance, Rohatgi had told the court that day, while SEEKING ITS PERMISSION TO READ MORE EXCERPTS from the REPORT. But the court had not allowed this, saying it had last month termed the report “confidential” and out of bound for various petitioners, including the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) on whose plea the panel had been formed to probe the carnage. … ….. During the court proceedings Tuesday, Setalvad’s counsel Indira Jaisingh demanded a copy of the panel’s report, saying that she needed it to refute its findings against her client. … ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. ….. Later taking note of the seriousness of Jaisingh’s demand, it (COURT) took exception to the leakage of the report. At one point, Justice Pasayat even showed the court’s copy of the report to those present, saying it was still sealed. On allegations by Jaisingh that Rohatgi had quoted excerpts of the report in his interview to various television channels too, the court specifically asked him if he had done so. Rohatgi replied in the negative. The court, however, later remarked that he “SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN READ OUT FROM THE REPORT” on April 13, when the court had already declared it confidential.”

    For other things, which Rohatgi READ OUT FROM THE REPORT, please visit http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gujarat-riots-sit-says-teestas-charges-false/90200-3.html

    Now let use what we have here:
    a) Did you note “READING from the REPORT”? The court said the “act of reading” was wrong, not what was “Read” and, it was READ OUT FROM THE REPORT. It is possible that GoG’s counsel was using his own language when he said “………panel has RUBBISHED various allegations some NGOs have….”. Not so when says that the “…………..panel has “NOTED” that most of these allegations were stereotyped and WITHOUT ANY SUBSTANCE…..”. Conclusion : no shred of evidence. QED. You win. Applause !

    b) Another quote by the court (from CJP’s site) said: “…If the report “SAID CERTAIN THINGS”, it also referred to hundreds of “NEW ACCUSED BEING ADDED” to the cases. I am sure the more IMPORTANT part is the new accused, but we are discussing something different. Aren’t we. Any guess, what those “CERTAIN THINGS” could be ? My guess is that it was about the status of Global Airline Industry in light of current economic climate and potential impact of Swine Flue. “. Conclusion: Not a shred of evidence. QED. More Applause !

    c) Another smart quote highlighted on CJP’s website is the court saying ………”Whoever has done it, does not understand the SIT report”. FULL STOP. There is a NON-HIGHLIGHTED part also which goes a bit further : – The quote is “Whoever has done it, does not understand the SIT report. It is not akin to that submitted under Section 173 of CrPC (the chargesheet). This does not have “ANY EVIDENTIARY” value”………. Now, if this lack of EVIDENTIARY VALUE is what you are referring to as proof of innocence, then you have another winner in your hands, Congrats. some more applause. Ooh Loser me.

    Ultimately NO SHRED OF EVIDENCE

    Unfortunately, (or rather owing to my low IQ and very poor communication skills) my response is pathetically long, boring and tiring to read. Never mind. I am sure your response, if any, will not be as boring and so long.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    I do not see the point of your referring to all these news articles. They all contain the same information and news.

    Lets first agree on the facts.

    (1) The SIT report was submitted to the SC, and the SC gave a copy to the Government of Gujarat. As the news report that you yourself linked, it is clear that the report with the SC itself was sealed and had not been looked into by the SC itself….till the trials begin.

    Therefore it follows that whatever the press is quoting and it all appears on april 14th in several papers is simply what the Gujarat government council revealed to it. Therefore there is no point in giving links of two thousand newspapers , because all of them have got the same information and from the same source.

    (2) The Government of Gujarat cannot reveal any part of the report to the public, because that would be contempt of court. Therefore whatever was revealed by it to the press was through a note it prepared, and therefore is its INTERPRETATION of the report.

    Therefore it boils down to whether you trust what the government says or not. Now I realize that you have lot of confidence in the Government of Gujarat. But I DO NOT, and therefore I do not believe its version or interpretation at all. Governments throughout the world are known to lie, and the Gujarat government specially has a history of that. As I had pointed out that during the Best Bakery case it tried all the tricks possible to malign Setalvad , and alleged that she had fabricated witnesses. As I had mentioned before, the case turned out to be a lie. This is simply a case of trying to side step the issues and the trials and try to malign the CJP.

    Now I really do suggest that you kindly look up the reply by the CJP which I had linked.

    As it points out and as we all know very well Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel were arrested on the basis of these SIT investigations, therefore that the Gujarat government has a role is not in any way questioned, only the extent of it is.

    The people who have tirelessly worked to expose the role of the government and help the victims need to be applauded.

    Ankit Reply:

    Coming from seculars, who routinely justify terrorist incidents on the basis of communal riots, this rings quite hollow. Half a million Indians were uprooted from their ancestral homes, their properties were taken over by fanatics in a systematic fashion and the whole valley was ethnically cleansed of the Kashmiri Pandits. And ‘it needs to be condemned’? Ways to go!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Are you habibullah Mitra? Many bengali muslims have hindu last names.

    [Reply]

  • K

    Well, I would only like to add two things from my side –

    1. Those who commit crimes in India should be punished irrespective of their affiliation. I doubt if a rightist will disagree with the ‘liberals’ on this point. So, lets stop arguing that the so-called ‘hindu terror’ is being condoned on this blog or anywhere for that matter. This ‘liberal’ argument only increases the feeling of victimization among minorities (and provides fuel for the ‘liberal’ protectors of diversity !).

    2. Please stop throwing Turkey at anyone who argues that muslim countries could be secular. Please note that we are discussing secularism and not democracy – there is a difference. Turkey is 99.8% muslim, so there religious diversity is practically non-existent compared to a country like India, even when you account for all the sub-groups in Turkey’s islamic population.

    Noone can justify killings of muslims in India and noone can justify the killings of hindus in India. Thats not what this debate is about.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Mr Mitra

    On your first point if you read carefully, it is not the majority which compares the SA and India. Some do. But when you say what do Muslims in India have to do with muslims of SA, or Wherever, you should ask this question to them also.

    While you are right in recognizing SA is fanatic country, majority of our friends hear in India do not agree with you. I can show many instances where SA society is praised as an Ideal one. Although, I don’t have a problem here as long as this is limited to praise only.

    The questions you need to ask are many.
    For e.g. What is the problem of Indian Muslims if India is building strategic ties with Israel especially on managing terrorist threats. Same goes for US. The so called anti terror fatwas was actually a fatwa against US , Israel with Indian state also following. Terrorism for them is not what we understand from it.

    Similarly, If France chooses to ban Burqas in France, why should it be a factor in our relationship with France. Should India’s foreign relations be determined by what the foreign countries do with India or on the basis of what they do to Muslims in any part of the world.?

    Normally there are two liberal responses to this question one deny existence of such views and second what is wrong with that. Good and great.

    Next, there were quite a number out there who were actually supporting the Zaid Ahmed’s theory behind 26/11. If you check some of the mainstream blogs, you would find headlines like “Now who has egg on his face? Citing rumors of Israelis being seen somewhere or terrorists having alcoholic drinks. But the day Pakis accepted the truth, the Blog headlines were about some urdu mushaira or about israel and not a word about Pak’s admission.

    And when Mr Antulay came out with his theory he was proclaimed as a Messiah of Muslims by the Muslims. Congress never felt like asking him any questions and Digvizay singh and Arun singh types even supported judicial enquiry to establish the truth. Now innocent liberals can ask what is wrong with an enquiry? And of course they must be right.

    After every event like 26/11 whole bevy of politicians, mainstream media outlets and secular intellectuals are out in full strength spouting profoundities like “Terror has nothing to do with religion” “We need to address Muslim alienation” “jihad is struggle for self reformation ”
    We need to improve their education and economic conditions and so on and so forth. Noble thoughts really.

    But when Sadhvi was arrested, there was absolute consensus among the same set of people that this was HIndu Terror or Saffron Terror. Do you remember any rationalization by the indian secular establishment as is the case with every other terrorist attack. (Don’t cite the support from RSS and VHP we are talking about the supposedly secular mainstream)

    I know for our “secular preachers” most of these are non-existent or trivial matters.

    When that reprehensible incident happened in mangalore Pub, the mainstream media played a praise worthy role and the whole nation was morally outraged. And rightly so.

    But when a mob attacked the office of Statesman” in kolkata and the editor not only had to apologize but was even arrested, most of the mainstream media did not even report that, forget condemnation or sermonising on freedom of speech.

    Your “comprehensive and victorious” response to all the Bigots follows a very consistent and long established tradition of secular sermonisng. These sermons typically have a paragraph on Kashmiri Hindus or “ALLEGED” Godhra train burning (depending upon context) stating them as “deplorable” in a long list of Hindu Atrocities which are rarely, if ever “alleged”.

    Even if we accept for a moment the no of Muslims killed in post Godhra riots at 2000 (official stats are in range of 1200) does it become genocide? Then what are we to call the plight of Kashmiri Hindus.

    If gujarat riots were state sponsored genocide of unarmed Muslims, then who killed 300 (for this category of course official numbers must have been exaggerated, yeah another secular gem) hindus? and what made some 40,000 hindus seek refuge in relief camps (official nos)?

    Another classic example of this hypocrisy was to be seen about “alleged” Godhra Train burning. Tahelka chief who did a great sting on Killers of unarmed Muslims and state support for them describes the whole chain of events starting with ” when a boggy full of right wing hindu extremists” .. .. …..

    For him even the addition of “deplorable” is too much.

    Most of editorials started with saying something like “words are not enough to describe the reprehensible burning of train. . . . .. Following up with a “there is a need to look at the wider political context” Yes of course. After all those killed were “right wing hindu extremists”

    Then there was another set of stories claiming the Kar sevaks misbehaved at the platform and abducted a Muslim girl and so on. The origin of the story? A news report filed in the name of a PTI journalist. The poor guy never knew that he filed that report he had to issue clarifications that it wasn’t his report but who cares, that report become a standard construct and (always the only source, till 5 yrs later when Tehalka simply stated our own investigations have also confirmed!) in all (no only those where the train incident was mentioned, later that was also not needed) the subsequent reports simultaneously dehumanising and blaming the victims .

    Of course if that report was true , then burning of those “Right wing hindu extremists, including their kids and women would have been as justifiable as our right to vote.

    Well if I chose to, I can also complete the picture in true secular tradition by saying that those riots were deplorable and guilty should be punished. But as someone mentioned earlier the standards for Hindu liberals are different. And so you must understand that I am also ashamed of those riots, and my blood boiled seeing those reports and seeing the faces of those politicians, whose faces were proof that Human blood did not run there.

    But I am sorry I cannot call it a “Genocide”, it was a local conflict between two communities, initiated by those who burnt the train and instigated further by the insensitive response of secular establishment, may be with some instances of official indifference or at worst support. But let us not forget many Hindus were killed in police firing also.

    In contrast how many times have you seen the word “genocide” used for Kashmiris? Ignoring every event, past or present, every statement and so many publicly declared positions of separatists, the Kashmir problems is claimed to be about “Kashmiriat” or “right to self determination”. Will the secular establishment explain to us what do Muslims from Kerala, Andhra, Afghanistan, Punjab (in Pakistan) etc have to do with Kashmiriat? Were Hindus not a part of that Kashmiriat?
    Of course, we will have very sweet response to all of this from self proclaimed high IQ liberals. But Forget all that. What we really need to worry about is what will happen in rest of India, If Kashmir actually is separated from India? When majority will no more be concerned about these seculars classifying them as Rabid Hindus.

    I am sure all of these are lies or incorrect ok you add variety. Good and Great. I no more have any interest in responding to these High IQ seculars. Of course it is everyone’s fundamental right to respond even if on the other end is a disgusting low IQ bigot.

    And for me it is necessary to comment here only because it is blog on Hindustan Times

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    Your “masterpiece” and ” calm, logical ” post (to repeat the description of your intellectual brother), is a typical b u l l s h i t argument, which I have heard a million times. These arguments can be divided into three types…plain lies…. hypocritical statements and nonsense.

    Let me come to the “plain lies” part. This is the part about how no body condemns the tragedy of the Kashmiri Pandits. This is similar to the other allegation often made that Muslims do not condemn terrorism.

    Well about the Kashmiri Pandits, since we have been talking of Setelvad…..She has talked and written about it several times, along with the plight of hindu minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh. In fact you could find quite a few articles on it in her website. She talks about it in public forum as well, one such instance being in her acceptance speech of the Rajiv Gandhi Sadhbhavna Award, 2002 . This is in public.

    Now to get to the hypocritical part. This is related to the banning of burqas in France. I dont think it has in any way affected India’s relation with France, as you know very well. More to the point, if you remember correctly, there was also a huge
    hue and cry in India regarding not just the burqa incident but also the turban incident…which again you conveniently omitted.

    Now finally to the nonsense part, which is basically the rest of your post. But in particular the constant reference to “numbers”… majority of people like SA, …majority??? I am sorry even if that was true…how the hell did you come to know of it? By looking at blog comments??? Do you have any idea how many people write on blogs? Do you know what is the ratio of literate people in India? Of that do you know what percentage are media savvy??? Now among the media savvy people how many do you think write on blogs??? And finally of this number how many do you guess would be muslims? Let me guess…how about 0.00001 %? may be more may be less?? what do you say?

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @K, Thank you for a very measured and sane response. Honestly.

    @SKS, Thank you for defending our collective bigotry. A masterpiece of calm, logical reasoning.

    [Reply]

  • Sid

    @Bobby,
    “NO! the second TOI report is also before the HT article…not a later date. The HT article i linked is several days later to that.!!!” – But you did not mention response just to mislead the argument. It seems that this is only possible with very high IQ.
    “The HT article quotes a senior SIT official as saying: ” – who is this senior official? SIT is a team that comprised of senior CBI officials. They were all known names, why do not HT reporter say the name? TOI reporter, when responding, actually gave the reference to page numbers of the report. Saying a “senior official” does not cut it.

    “When you accuse X of something, its X and not A, B, C who will reply” – that does not mean that X’s reply have to be accepted without any supporting proof. If I am accused of something and I want to get rid of that accusation I need proof and reply, a simple reply is not good enough.

    “when the Supreme Court termed the leak as a “betrayal of the faith reposed in those to whom the report was allowed access”. ” – If SC said anything like it, it does not talk about TOI report, it is frustrated about the leak. If there is a “contempt of court” it will be applicable to the dude who created the leak, not the reporter who published it. If media finds a leak it should publish, that is it’s job and that right is reserved under freedom of media.

    “as you did about the Gujarat HC reprimand of Setalvad, which was later expunged and rebutted by the SC” – when did that happen? Give me a link please. As far as I know before SIT went to investigate, Teesta was advised by SC to stay away from the case. You conveniently ignored the lesser known fact that I mentioned about her article. She is no activist, just a biased left-wing media-charmer.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Sid,

    For the last time, the TOI article was BEFORE the HT article, so it cant be a response to it. It was a response to the CJP reply, which I did not post in the first place, so it makes no sense to post a reply to something I did not refer to at all…..

    “I want to get rid of that accusation I need proof…”

    In fact it works exactly the other way round. One needs proof to accuse someone, which In this case DOES NOT EXIST. The second TOI article as well as the HT article clearly show this fact.

    “Give me a link please..” I had already done that, if you care to read.

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    Mr> Hashmi now claims there was miscommunication no discrimination was doen to him..

    This confirms my peeve against muslims in India they just love to run to media comaplainign about discrimination at drop of hat.. Even this blogger rues why he is called muslim .. When you ledn support to thsi kind of nautankii it’s no wonder people call you muslim ..

    Azhar mian of match fixing fame too ran to media shouting discrimination only to be told to shut up.. these days he is givign lecture on ethics in sports .. What is this world coming to..

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    An egg on the face of people like Amy, Bobby and Zia.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    We have opened our mouth to eat it instead.Rajeev are u a vegetarian we like to share whatever we get !!!!Ha ha

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You know, I love ham. If you want, I can send you ham pickle (from Ambala).

    Rajeev Reply:

    You are actually accepting that you people are shameless. If one lie doesn’t work, you will try another.

    By the way, not all hindus are vegetarians.

    I eat everything including PORK. How about if we throw some PIG meat on your face, will you open your gutter mouth?

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear nutcase Rajeev,

    Ranchi Mental Asylum Kanke Road, Ranchi Phone: 2455813.

    Do yourself and your loved ones a favor. Meet the docs at this place. Wish you a speedy recovery.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Bobby,
    There is a big mental asylum in Agra (a muslim city). I’d like you to check-in immediatly.
    Your kind of garbage is making others sick as well.

    They also serve ham to muslim in Agra Asylum.

    Rajeev Reply:

    What’s your real name?

    Baharuddin Ansari..f*cking Arjal moron.

    Amy Reply:

    Oh wow! thanks for exposing ur porky mentality.Wow so much defence of beliefs u dont practice urself! What a hypocrite! U ought to go for a shuddi, which temple will u like to do, coz from vatican to mecca to puri the only message I found was of peace and respect for the other. What a disgrace to ur army background ,u dont carry the dignity, discipline,patriotism or the courage what with the discriminatory remark for all u know u just be a dalit urself!

    Rajeev Reply:

    Amna,
    You really need juicy ham in your mouth.

    Rajeev Reply:

    There is peace from Vatican to Puri but it takes diversion upon reaching Mecca.

    Amy Reply:

    U never fail me or my expectations, full marks to my judgement, infact so predictable beyond reason or doubt , so dependable so true to urself. How low can u go? heard of the game?

    Rajeev Reply:

    And you never cease to amaze with your soft-terrorist attitude.

    Did you munch on the ham that I tossed towards you?

  • Rani

    So, Hashmi, Zia , etc have been living in ghetto? Interesting ! Just over-exploiting the minority tag. Earlier I used to pay attention to such complaints. But now just irritating , nothing more. I am sure soon every one will lose interest in such allegations at the drop of the hat. I know quite a few successful muslims, they took such incidents in their stride rather than whine and talk nonsense like what if 150 million muslims take up weapons. Such talk simply disgusts people like me , doesn’t evoke compassion. seriously such guys show up their terrorist mentality. Know that 150 million muslims have 150 million differences and are not really going to succeed in taking up arms and threatening India. So stop such childish talk.

    [Reply]

  • Proud Hindu

    Dear Zia,

    Egg on your face after Emraan Hashmi’s u-turn. Go and hide your face in Antarctica.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    (1) The SIT report was submitted to the SC, and the SC gave a copy to the Government of Gujarat. As the news report that you yourself linked, it is clear that the report with the SC itself was sealed and had not been looked into by the SC itself…

    SC may not have seen it but Rohatgi was quoting (with some interpretation from his side) the report and that was during the court proceedings, to which CJP’s lawyer objected, again in the court itself. So claiming that “what is being quoted by media” ( in the links I gave now) is simply what the Gujarat government council revealed to it (I hope when you use ‘it’ you mean media) simply amounts to .. — now my Vocab fails me. Please note it is not what media claimed to be contained in the report that I am talking about, I am talking about what Rohatgi told the ‘court and the media reported. Is that difference not obvious?

    (2) The Government of Gujarat cannot reveal any part of the report to the public, because that would be contempt of court. Therefore whatever was revealed by it to the press was through a note it prepared, and therefore is its INTERPRETATION of the report.

    Now which note is this ? The media was reporting what happened in the court. Contempt of court would be revealing the report to public but, as I explained earlier also, we are not talking about public , we are talking about what Rohatgi said in and to the court.

    Contempt of court is not what we are concerned with. The concern is what was there in the report. And that indeed is almost settled when the court remarked that the ” report SAID CERTAIN THINGS, it also referred to hundreds of NEW ACCUSED BEING ADDED…

    You innovative approach in bringing up Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel’s arrest says a great deal more — — — but I leave it as a matter between your conscience and your conviction.
    My reply categorically said that those new accused are more important part of the story, but once again we were discussing something else and nothing you write or claim here can lead to the conclusion you want us to make.

    You are right when you state that, that govt machinery had questionable role was hardly the dispute, it was the extent. And you can see that in some of my previous comments also. The point really was whether the atrocities were exaggerated ? As of now, to say no won’t be honest.

    Before this is misinterpreted, let me clarify a more gentle way of murdering would not have made it a more acceptable crime. Nevertheless what could motivate someone to make an already reprehensible crime like murder look, even worse is not something that a civil society should dismiss.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Bobby,

    You are right. Thanks

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Dear SKS,

    As I asked you to…please read the reply of the CJP which I have linked in one of my posts here, this is why I gave the link!!!

    NO! he was not quoting from the report. He was quoting from a “four page note” which was circulated in the court. This is mentioned in the reply. So please read the reply.

    As I said before these people are born liars. Their sole aim was to spread lies about the people who are intervening on behalf of the vitctims, as they had tried before.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    I always thought that you were an atheist. As usual I’ am wrong again..

    Test for Truth is “CJP said” and what it said “These reports “COULD ONLY BE” referring to a contention made in a four page… …. . So a “guess” by CJP is Gospel.

    All the journalists who thought they were reporting on court proceedings were taken for a ride by “BORN” lairs.

    When the. court remarked that the. “report SAID CERTAIN THINGS” it actually meant the GoG note

    When the court, remarked that he “SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN READ OUT FROM THE REPORT” on April 13, the court actually meant the “note”.

    When CJP says: “Besides this, Mukhul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the “report”, CJP actually meant the note.

    Well, when in my last comment, I said “it is between your conscience and your conviction, I made another mistake. I should have said your conscience and your belief.

    Indeed faith can move mountains. Right?

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    Dear SKS,

    When the news paper article says “quoting from the report” it DOES NOT MEAN that he literally had the report in his hand and was quoting from it. It might also mean that he had a few excerpts of it WRITTEN IN A NOTE with his own interpretations, and he had simply read it out. A priori both of these are possible. Do we agree on these possibilities?? You can not from a newspaper article know which of the two was the case. THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF BELIEF. These are two logically possible alternatives.

    WHICH IS WHY we have to look at the clarification of the CJP. The reply CLEARLY says which of the two happened. In fact it refutes the first claim of “reading from the report” very strongly.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Dear S
    I don’t think I accused “you” of saying Hinduism is bad, if somehow that is what got conveyed, I am sorry, that was not the intent.

    That part of the arguement was meant for another set of people.

    Ram’s unwillingness to leave near those who consume beef does not necessarily transalate into hating them. I am sure there are many hindus as also muslims who will avoid eating on a table where beef or pork is served. Right or wrong we can debate. But don’t characterize this as hate. (Of course under Indian Secularism, this is hate)

    Similarly, your question whether Ram will refuse to live (you use hate or demean here, but as I explained, I don’t agree with that conclusion) with his co-religionists because they eat meat, you need to know that there are many vegetarian hindus who routinely refuse to live with non-vegetarian hindus also. Again, scriptures might not have said so. It simply is their current value system. Although one could very rightly argue that if it is just their conviction and not religion, then why should they mind sitting on a table where meat or beef is served, as long as they are not asked to eat it. The answer is (I) their current value system, at least in their mind , has its origin in religion and (ii) a sense of aesthetics. Most of us know that soaps cannot (is that right?) transmit germ, but we still use different soaps for bath and for washing hand after loo!
    Let me reiterate, I am not justifying anything, all I am trying to say is it is not necessarily hate and it has little to do with what is or is not written in scriptures.

    [Reply]

    S Reply:

    Hi,

    I certainly dont have a problem with some one who does not eat in my house because he / she feels , even veg food might be some how contaminated with no-veg food.

    Why i said hate(for Ram Comment) , you have to read Ram’s(original comment) which he gave.
    ie:- beef ,alligiance, burkha(he fears womean in burkha !! what a joke) etc,
    Taking that comment into toatlity , i saw only one major reason why he hate muslims.
    This conclusion is only based on what he said in the comment.

    I lived in hostel, whenver we(i was the only muslim) went out for food, there were some hindu friends who would not sit on the same table with all those who eat non-veg.I don’t eat meat from outside (Halal isuue) , so all those who had meat were again hindus.(hindus had problem with hindus, well it was friend having problem with friends)

    So i understand were this , hesitation comes from.If you sincearley read Ram’s comment, you will see he derides muslims coz we eat beef or non-veg(i haven’t eaten it,it’s also not available, & out of respect,tell ram(comment) to read some of the fatwa of the deoband in this matter).

    Let me give u two examples(Real),

    We live in delhi in sector 1(i am not telling the exact place), had hindu neghibour(Verma so a Pandit).They initially had hesitation in eating at our place, but eventually it went & they were fine with it.We also took care of their religious sentiment.The husband used to bath outside when he came from funeral(ie:- Realy strong Hindu in Religous terms)

    Now at another place in delhi, negibour a Hindu Punjabi family:- they belived in some Baba(don’t remeber name), so they stooped eaing meat.Again a heisitaion,so aunty once told my mother,after she saw her in the kitchen(non veg :- veg mixing), that she does not have any problem eating at our house.

    Matter of non-veg is really a small matter between muslims & hindus.Muslims do understand why some hindu’s don’t eat non-veg (religious reason), & i believe generally make extra effort for non-muslims who don’t

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Ooh, I accidentally pressed before completing.

    Thanks for confirmation, this is exactly what I said.

    You are right. Thanks again

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear SKS,

    Let me try again.

    (1) In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report…”

    (2) “The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Mr.Rohatgi to READ ANYTHING FROM THE REPORT.”…emphasis mine.

    What does this mean? A note was circulated in court, which is the source of all the news info appearing in various newspapers on april 14th. NOTHING WAS READ OUT OF THE REPORT, because it was not allowed by the supreme court.

    Look we can go on talking about it, but its pointless. This government has a history of lying at trying ut failed attempts to malign the representatives of the victims, so I do nto give any value to what it says.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Look why are you still trying. Don’t you see I agreed to the “TRUTH”.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Dear S,
    Thanks for understanding. My interest here was limited to the two points, and as I said later much of that was not addressed to you.

    [Reply]

  • Atul Barry

    Zia:

    I agree with Atul that you should do a little better job at moderating comments posted on your blog. While your intent to allow freedom of expression is laudable, and that it exposes the rabidity of many of your respondents, it does clog the post and meaningful discussion is lost.

    This is an excellent blog and is serving as a platform to discuss many uncomfortable truths. Dissidence is acceptable, but hate-mongering and calling names should be censored.

    Regards,

    Atul Barry

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    When did you convert? How much rice did you get?

    [Reply]

  • Jay Sharma

    Unless we Indians realise that both Hindu and Muslim communities have to live in the country together and there is no alternative, we cannot make the country safer and prosperous. Due to our infighting, the external forces are exploiting divisions between us. There was a time when Jinnah and Gandhi shared the same stage against British rule and both Hindu and Muslim freedom fighters together fought the colonial regime. Due to the immature and egoist personalities of our leaders – both Hindus and Muslims – the same divisive traits crept in the society and both the communities became thirsty for each other’s blood. If we assess the condition of mutual distrust, it is being caused by a handful of people with extreme beliefs on both sides. The Hindus should be responsible in their talks while referring to Muslims in a derogatory tone, especially in presence of youth. It has been seen that whenever there is a terrorist incident, etc, some Hindus curse Muslims and utter nonsensical talks which creates bad feelings to the Muslim listeners who have not the remotest link with such incidents and who are themselves victims of such terrorism. When Pakistan was created, the Hindu leaders assured the safety of Muslims who opted to continue living in India. Those Muslims who stayed back in India have the same right to live in India now as Hindus and the irresponsible talks and slogans, especially during election time by selfish political leaders and their cohorts causes friction in the society. Majority of the Hindus have no inherent disliking for Muslims. If it had been so, Abdul Kalam, our Muslim crickers and Bollywood heroes would not have been held in high esteem. As someone pointed out, the problem with Muslim community is that they have allowed to be led by some fundamentalist Muslim leaders who had parochial tendencies. There is hardly any Muslim leader, after Independence, with pan-Indian image. It cannot be denied that majority of the Muslims have been leading life of deprivation and being discriminated against in Hindu majority areas. Both communities should join hands for uplifting their plight so that the gap in the society is bridged.

    [Reply]

  • Humanbeing

    I have just touched onto this website and have been reading some of the comments. Quite frankly if there is anyone who can solve the world’s problem of discrimination he or she is not born yet and never will be. History tells us that man has always fought each other for different reasons, its the powerful against the powerless, the dominant against the less dominant, the majority against the minority, the rich against the poor and so on.

    From what I have read at the top of this page, you are all making some very good points but some of you are also ignorant of the real problems that exists.
    True: I do not see why Hashim should not have a flat where there are Hindus – many hindus and muslims have lived in India side by side in the past and perhaps still do. They do in my country. He would be eating beef not the Hindus.
    False: many of the things the blogger says about Muslims is his/her own opinion and experience and if it is the blogger’s honest opinion then he/she is very niave. Pork in Dubai, come on. This is a nation trying to develop and grow, to grow in tourism, did you thin it believed only Muslims will be tourists, it needs not only muslims to do so but all other people, so yes there is pork in Dubai. Is this the same in other Muslim dominated countries? There are many statements made about muslim hardliners that is true. Please read more genuine articles and look at some documentaries that provides evidences so that you can speak on a broader term and not just what you experience and belief. Note not all muslims are hardliners but there is quite a population in the world. And who dare to say so, even I am scared to but now I have done it. Let the sensible people of India accept the truth and deal with the problems so that they can all live as Indians. Good Luck

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    HOW ABOUT SUBSTITUTING OUR POLITICIANS FOR THE LOST WILDLIFE ?

    THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT IN BEHAVIOR & EQUALLY CAPABLE OF MAINTAINING THE BALANCE OF NATURE. THEY TOO ARE SAVAGE & HAVE TO BE PROTECTED FROM PUBLIC IRE

    [Reply]