As is our unity, so is our capacity



My two eyes, Gandhi called Hindus and Muslims. Like Icarus, who flew so close to the sun on wings of wax that he fell, Gandhi would go so far chasing unity, he would fall to bullets.

Had it been set in Delhi’s Birla House instead of Dublin, the opening of Irish novelist Edna O’Brien’s biography of James Joyce would have been equally true of Gandhi:

Once Upon a time there was man coming down a road in Dublin and he gave himself the name of Dedalus the sorcerer, constructor of labyrinths and maker of wings for Icarus who flew so close to the sun that he fell, as the apostolic Dubliner James Joyce would fall deep into a world of words – from the ‘epiphanies’ of youth to the ‘epistomadologies’ of later years.”

Gandhi was no less a magician of Muslim-Hindu unity. He could singularly bring a riot to a grinding halt — in one fell swoop. As for maker of wings, Gandhi soared on his two wings of non-violence and communal harmony. He flew into a blazing sun of discord. But unlike the Dubliner’s cushioned fall “into a world of words”, Gandhi fell to shots fired by someone who felt Hindu interests were far too compromised. That’s a story we all know.

But I doubt whether our present-day politicians would take the kind of risks our founding fathers took. Hindu-Muslim unity is no longer spoken of by our political leaders. The catchphrases are economy and inclusive growth, none of which can help uplift people on bad terms.

Our prime ministers, ministers and leaders have gradually given this a pass. Seldom is a stirring speech heard. Rarely do they address the need for communal harmony, something that has still to be nursed like a new sapling from the storm, till its green shoots can flower.

Time was when Gandhi, Nehru and Maulana Azad would never fail or forget to reinforce this. There was no live television then to carry their voices to millions, yet they were distinctly heard.

Today, when such messages could be instantly beamed across the length and breadth of the country, with the widest possible reach of non-stop media, sadly our politicians don’t speak much on this.

Their speeches are limited to either their political achievements or their craven criticism of the Opposition. Many Muslim writers sadly seek popularity by playing to the gallery, rather than dealing with the need to change mindsets. The topics chosen are the ones most palatable: pan Wahabism here and extol the virtues of Sufism there.

So, the present political class has nearly made ‘Hindu-Muslim unity’ a dispensable part of their rhetoric.

Ram Rajya was the defining motif of Leader of the Opposition L.K. Advani’s cross-country rath yatra, Gandhi being one of the five persons who inspired the BJP’s vision. As BJP searches answers to its shrinking base, as of now, it must ask why Muslims are abhorrent of its version of Ram Rajya.

Ensconced in a Hindu vote bank, BJP’s Ram Rajya is enfeebled by a lack of acceptability by one and all. Gandhi’s Ram Rajya, deeply ensconced in morality, is simply welfare of all.

Gandhi removed doubts with clarity and his actions backed his words: “Let no one commit the mistake of thinking that Ramrajya means a rule of the Hindus. My Rama is another name for Khuda or God. I want Khudai Raj, which is the same thing as the Kingdom of God on earth.”

Let us move away for a moment from contemporary key words like “nine per cent growth” and revisit some old concepts, seemingly irrelevant now, like Gandhi’s Swaraj for example. Literally, Swaraj meant self-rule, as used by Tilak and Naoroji. Swarajya, an inflection of the same word, would mean the state of self-determination.

For Gandhi, Swaraj would not simply mean self-rule. It would mean freedom for self-rule but not freedom from self-restraint. He was deeply concerned with the full moral meaning of Swaraj, a sacred Vedic word. It had to be a perfect harmony between freedom of the nation and freedom of individuals. “Swaraj government will be a sorry affair if people look upon it for regulation of every detail of life,” Gandhi wrote. That’s how I have understood my history.

If Ram Rajya is a just society, then its goal is the same as that of an Islamic state, not in the narrow application of Shariah or rule of clerics. Yet, Islamic state is such an unmentionable term now. In my opinion, democracy is the best means to the end of an Islamic state insofar as it means a just state pinioned to moral principles. So, an Islamic state need not necessarily be a theological state run by clerics.

If we can achieve justice for all, through multi-party democracy, it will no less be an Islamic state. It will also be at the same time a Ram Rajya.

According to Gandhi, government of the self is the truest Swaraj. This is so similar to the normative concept of Jihad-e-akbar, or greater Jihad. I am not yoking the two concepts with violence; rather there is a natural parallel. Greater Jihad according to the Prophet was the fight against evil inside one’s own self.

For all their contribution, I think the real power of our great leaders was that there was unity of purpose, despite differences.

Ambedkar did not quite approve of Gandhi’s “Harijan” word for it still meant a particular class of people. He blamed Hinduism as being responsible for the caste system and even burnt the old Hindu law treatise Manusmirit, which explicitly condoned the four varnas or castes as having had Vedic sanction.

Gandhi, on the other hand, did not quite approve of three temple satyagrahas of Ambedkar. Yet, both strove to give the “least, the last and the lost” their rightful place.

Writing in Harijan in 1942, Gandhi stated: “Hindustan belongs to all those who are born and bred here and who have no other country to look to. Therefore, it belongs to Parsis, Beni Israels, to Indian Christians, Muslims and other non-Hindus as much as to Hindus. Free India will be no Hindu Raj, it will be Indian Raj based not on the majority of any religious sect or community, but on the representatives of the whole people without distinction of religion. Foreign domination going, we shall laugh at our folly in having clung to false ideals and slogans.”

Far from being able to hold a candle to them, present-day leaders have nearly disinherited this great legacy. It is often observed that the abiding quality that most old-timers remember about leaders like Gandhi, Nehru and Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad is the significance they attached to communal harmony.

If Jinnah was half in love with the idea of Pakistan, Gandhi was more than half in love with Hindu-Muslim unity. And he broke this down to its barest trifles.

In an article in Young India in 1921, Gandhi wrote:

“I am fully aware that we have not yet attained that unity to such an extent as to bear any strain. It is a daily-growing plant, as yet in delicate infancy, requiring special care and attention. The thing became clear in Nellore when the problem confronted me in a concrete shape. The relations between the two were none too happy. They fought only about two years ago over the question of playing music whilst passing mosques. I hold that we may not dignify every trifle into a matter of deep religious importance. Therefore a Hindu may not insist on playing music whilst passing a mosque. He may not even quote precedents in his own or any other place for the sake of playing music. It is not a matter of vital importance for him to play music whilst passing ‘a mosque. One can easily appreciate the Mussul man sentiment of having solemn silence near a mosque the whole of the twenty-four hours. What is a non-essential to a Hindu may be an essential to a Mussalman. And in all non-essential matters a Hindu must yield for the asking. It is criminal folly to quarrel over trivialities. The unity we desire will last only if we cultivate a yielding and a charitable disposition towards one another. The cow is as dear as life to a Hindu; the Mussulinan should therefore voluntarily accommodate his Hindu brother. Silence at his prayer is a precious thing for a Mussulman. Every Hindu should voluntarily respect his Mussulman’s brother’s sentiment.”

Eighty-five years later, Islamic seminary Darul Uloom would rule in a fatwa that cow-slaughter is not an Islamic tenet at all and if law of the land forbids it, Muslims should follow the law.

Gandhi believed there were no real differences between Hindus and Muslims but petty indifferences:

“I am striving to become the best cement between the two communities. My longing is to be able to cement the two with my blood, if necessary. There is nothing in either religion to keep the two communities apart. In nature there is a fundamentally unity running through all the diversity. Religions are no exception to the natural law. They are given to the mankind so as to accelerate the process of realization of fundamental unity. The need of the moment is not an establishment of a Universal religion but there is a greater need to develop mutual respect towards the different religions.”

The powerful and poetic idioms that marked the efforts of our founding leaders have become scantier. For Gandhi, Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam of the Vedic tradition was no different from the Quranic belief that Allah was the creator of all and that He would dispense justice on the basis of deeds.

Take Gandhi’s “two eyes” analogy for instance. Having begun with the “eyes” simile, I would like to trace back its roots for you.

Gandhi drew upon a famous saying of Muslim educator Sir Sayyed Ahmad Khan, the founder of Aligarh Muslim University: “Hindus and Muslims are like the two eyes of a ravishing beautiful new bride called Hindustan. If one of the eyes is weak or if both look in different directions, it spoils the beauty.”

Historians have observed that one reason why leaders like Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity with urgency was because without it, the mission of Independence would have suffered.

I wonder what makes our political leaders complacent now. India is never without a mission.

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  • amy

    Thanks for the idealism, but todays world is seen in terms of realism. The politics and issues of the 1920s are different from today. The political climate is rightist and there is a great need to find considerable and valuable reason for Hindu – muslim unity besides peaceful coexistence. As Sachar committee says Muslims bear double stigma of being anti national and at the same time being appleased.Muslims lack leadership, political will and neither are they united or can articulate their demands so no leader can help.However the immediate need of the hour is to curb violence and discrimination for biased orientation would poison any socioeconomic measures to uplift the community. Muslims too should pull up their socks and move with the times and address the realities of their situation and not blame others ,instead be objective of their assesment and change opinion through actions that contribute to nation building.

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  • http://------------------------------------------ sanjeev

    Zia reply

    Very simple questions:

    1. Which of the islamic state’s today ( there are lot of them like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.) are just society ? Please name a few islamic states which are just.

    2. ““an Islamic state need not necessarily be a theological state run by clerics.”

    then why Islamic why don’t you call it simply a state ?

    Isn’t it a oxymoron ?

    Look at this example

    ‘Christian state of Vatican city is a secular or Islamic state of Pakistan is a secular ‘

    Don’t you think these are contradictory statements ?

    Or else you mean something beyond that. Please elaborate your noble ideas ?

    [Reply]

    Musab Qazi Reply:

    @ Sanjeev:
    1. Today, in my opinion no country can claim to be wholly islamic, though thre are certain contries which follow islamic law to a certain extent. e.g. Saudi Arabia has islamic civil laws and criminal laws but not economic and political laws.
    2. an islamic state is a state whose constitution is Quran and sayings of prophet Mohammed(saw). It has to be guided by the most pious and able man elected by the people of the country. An islamic state is a tlerant state if not a secular one, because it tolerates other religions, at the same time it follows islamic laws.

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    amy Reply:

    Sanjeev,
    why are so negative ,anti social, anti national in any discussion or dialogue between Hindus and Muslims and blame others for their views when u refuse to look at ur views ?

    I see u want to impose ur views whether right or wrong on others ,even though others try to make u see but ur inherent bias and lack of comprensive powers is making u go round in circles Everyone has a right to live a life what they consider is right or is there only one way to lead one’s life ? That will severely restrict our options to the solutions in advancing the human civilization.Remember no religion or culture is less than another, If others are being modest in respecting other religion and culture ,that does not give u the right to critise anyne or think or make a fool out of them. Becuse remember u can be critisied too and its the easiest thing to do .Who are u to pass a judgement? And why should anyone bother to agree or listen.Is there anything good u find in muslims at all? You are not here to build understanding or any bridge to a better future. For heaven’s sake look at the topic and what u are arguing about? Why are u doing a great disservice to national unity and Hinduism?

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    shruti Reply:

    Hats off to you, Amy :-) . We need more rational people like you to counter people as rabid as sanjeev obviously is. Do you think it really matters to him how oppressed muslim women might be or how many children they produce? He’s just channelling his energies into digging up dirt against Muslims. Religion itself is just a way of life not a bone of contention to be used by warring sides who are deeply suspicious of each other. Advancement comes only when we shed hysterical war-mongering with the ‘others’ and focus on something more constructive.
    Heavy stuff! But all this hatred is so petty and self-destructive.

    Musab Qazi Reply:

    Islamic laws(social,political,economical,moral,spiritual)
    @ http://salmun.cwahi.net/wrel/rislam/sunni/books/iwl/iwl.htm

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    Rajeev ,

    Without any substance or issues, u stand a real good chance of being prosecuted for hate speech under Section 153A. Promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.Shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both. The moderators should take note for freedom of speech falls within the perview of such a law. Plz dont break the law Rajeev we dont want to victimise u, by blocking u out of our discussions as most chat rooms esp with religion as topics do.

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  • Ashish

    Can someone summarize this post? What is the point?
    Take out the quotes from Gandhi and the Edna OBrien references to Joyce.
    I sense a lament for the days gone by when our leaders spent their time talking about Hindu-Muslim amity (and Hindi-Chini bhai bhai??). Okay, got that.
    And, Islamic state is the same as Ram Rajya.. (doubtless, Sharia and Manusmriti will have a lot in common too)
    Gotcha..
    Also learnt that Swaraj is a sacred Vedic word and Vasudha-eva Kutumbakam means Allah is creator of all and will dispense justice according to deeds…
    Anything else I missed?

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  • Bobby

    “First thing it were muslims who demanded separate nation for themselves( none of the other communities…”

    Firstly fundamentalists of both sides, Hindus and Muslims wanted separate religion based nations. Just like The Muslim League wanted Pakistan, the founders of teh RSS and Hindu Mahasabha wanted a Hindu Rashtra, a demand the present crop of their followers demand.

    Infact they agreed with Jinnah that Hindus and muslims are separate nations. These founders of the Mahasabha and RSS took their inspiration from the European Nazis and Fascists, in creating a land purely for the “Hindu race”. THese are all on record, and well documented.

    “After they were given separate pakistan why didn’t all moved to pakistan, when their dream of separate nation came true ?”

    Because though its hard for people like you with such communal mentality to understand, people are not monoliths. They have several identities and they dont think alike. Not all “muslims” wanted to be in Pakistan, and thats why a large number of them stayed back, despite the dangers of communal attacks. In fact many of the people who did leave must have done so because of the fear of such attacks, and not on their own.

    “why is it that a significant proportion of muslim localities celebrates a **** win over indian cricket team ? are they ashamed of indian nationality ?”

    There we go again. Supporting the Indian cricket team as a test of patriotism. As I had in a earlier post to some other moron,…. whats next? supporting Aishwarya Rai over Angelina Jolie as the most beautiful woman as another test of patriotism?

    Moreover, where do you get the statistics from…I mean “significant proportion”? How do you know how many support which team???

    “Why many muslims raise hue and cry over palestine and never made any when 200000 kashmiris pandits were expelled from their homes from kashmir ? don’t you think they should have more concern for the people of their own nationalities rather than distant people with whom you have no blood relations ?…”

    Thats not true. Muslims are not the only people who condemn what is happening in Palestine, all well meaning people do, and all such people indeed do condemn the injustice done to the Kashmiri pandits. Again you do not see them, simply because you choose not to.

    “Instead of eulogising middle east just praise indian culture and its values, rather than the that of Saudi…”

    I do not see much point in praising culture just because “its mine”, one should condemn any thing wrong even if its in “our culture”, and in my opinion especially if its in “our culture”

    “Instead of teaching young boys the central teaching of quran: “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH”…”

    well, I may be wrong here but I thought that “ALLAH” is just the arabic name for GOD!!!, so the statement just means (I think) “God is one”, thats all!!

    “If you have been to Ajmer, you will find a lot of hindus paying respect to sufi shrine…”

    well you see this is what brain washing can do a person, one manages to interpret things in the wrong way always. This fact about Sufis actually shows precisely that the Sufi Sect of Islam was so tolerant that people of other faith used to respect it….!!!!

    Your comments makes your biased and communal world view pretty transparent.

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    Manuj Reply:

    ”’“Why many muslims raise hue and cry over palestine and never made any when 200000 kashmiris pandits were expelled from their homes from kashmir ? don’t you think they should have more concern for the people of their own nationalities rather than distant people with whom you have no blood relations ?…”

    Thats not true. Muslims are not the only people who condemn what is happening in Palestine, all well meaning people do, and all such people indeed do condemn the injustice done to the Kashmiri pandits. Again you do not see them, simply because you choose not to. ””’

    Being from a land in Q

    [Reply]

  • Bobby

    My Dear Sanjeev,

    “you jump directly to the conclusion of labelling some one as communal..”

    anyone who thinks of a set of people as a monolith and judges a person by his community affiliation only , in this case namely muslim is BY DEFINITION: communal, so its not my interpretation, its so by definition.

    “1. If hindus, sikhs etc can pay respect to a sufi saints then why hue and cry made by Mullahs when “surya namaskar” ( saluting the sun, which is merely an exercise) was introduced in schools in MP ?”

    If you cant understand the difference between people going to a shrine and people protesting government introducing something in a government school, then I cant help it.

    I think more than the act itself, it shows the deep mistrust people feel about the BJP, that it doubts its intentions in every case, and given the history of the party , I think rightly so.

    “So according to your interpretation all those people are wrong ?…”

    well I dont believe there is any god, so my interpretation does not matter. I was only trying to say that the way you were twisting what the Quran says or does not say, is just to suit your purpose.

    “Response : you can make out even in hostels of Delhi University, JNU and Jamia Milia Islamia University. you don’t have to go for field work outside delhi. go and check out nest time in nearest muslim locality ( for north india i m sure )”

    Well I can talk of only my experiences, which are mostly from the east, west and south, and I have never seen any such behaviour that you claim, so no… i dont think what you are saying is right. In any case I was asking for documented statistics, and your subjective experiences.

    And as far patriotism goes, Well a lot of my friends (most of them hindus) would not think twice to go and settle in the west given the first opportunity, so much for their love for India…..

    I dont think sports should ever be made into a national issue or pride or whetever.
    Its a form of entertainment, thats all.

    Its as stupid as the maharashtra government demanding that we stand up in cinema halls because the national anthem is played there…!! this really crosses all levels of “moronity”!!!

    there should be no tests of patriotism. That happens only in totalitarian regimes. We have a law, and the only demand should be that people follow the law… thats all…

    And please do not give us details of your personal life, because there is no way to check whether you are telling the truth or simply lying…and in any case its irrelevant.

    “BTW i am hindu but an atheist ( my religion permits me this freedom )…”

    this is the most hillarious thing I have ever heard. Do you need your religions permission to “become” an atheist???? what the hell does it mean!!!!! Do you go and ask the Sadhus and Sants whether “I can stop believing in god”????

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  • http://- Rajeev

    Whatever Gandhi said about so-called hindu-muslim unity was proved wrong by the partition of India. The peace loving muslims created havoc and forced Congress to accept partition. The muslims who actively participated in pakistan movement chose to stay back in India instead of migrating to Pure-land.

    The separatist tendencies are inbuilt in muslim DNA. They have created problem in every nation and will continue to create problem till they are totally subdued once and for all just like Japanese and Germans.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Sorry to inform you, but you have a very one-sided view of history, especially Partition history. I would recommend reading ‘Freedom at Midnight’ by Dominique Lappierre- it states facts as they are- not the Indian version or Pakistani version of history. Have you questioned WHY Muslim leaders like Jinnah felt threatened enough to take such an extreme step of creating a separate nation? Jinnah, with his English polish could have passed off for any liberal, modern-thinking guy- he had ridiculed the idea of Pakistan when it was first put to him. Gandhiji was a tall, amazing visionary who had all the right ideas, but people with jaundiced views can hardly be expected to appreciate them.

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  • Bobby

    what a crack pot :)

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  • amy

    Are u holding the Great Mahatama Gandhi responsible for partition, do u know of his effort to bring peace and harmony even after the partition and u must also know why and who killed him? Your attidude will divide India once again , with negative thoughts of others and me and me alone.Germany and Japan were facist countries even they had to mend there ways.I dident know there existed a seperation gene in DNA maybe u know more ,ha ha ha!!!!!

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  • Dola

    I agree with amy…I thought we are all educated people and would try to built the unity of our country coz we kno wat had actually happened during partition and we kno that its not about the entire community but a handful of them who wanted it…however, it seems we choose to overlook those facts and behave like extremists trying to blame the entire muslim community for whatever happened.

    Let me tell u that by religion I am a Hindu and i have as many muslim friends as hindu and I dint choose them after wheighing them on the basis of their religion…they are all my friends and just that…i can trust my muslim friends and fall back on them in times of distress as much as i can on my hindu friends.And they are equally proud to be Indians.

    Its my request to to people like you to grow up and behave like responsible citizens of india, since you claim so much to be a true india, work for the country’s growth and developement.There are far greater issues to be addressed than trying to find faults in a community.None of us have the right to do that.Its a shame that we still have people who think on such obnoxious lines!

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    Rajeev Reply:

    Amy,
    Gandhi was not a great but a cunning politician and so was Jinnah and Nehru.
    Lastly muslims should be the last one to talk about non-violence, peace, love and harmony. You muslims are the most disloyal citizen a nation can ever have. You are peaceful only when you are in very small number (like US), agressive when sizeable (France), Terrorist and blood thirsty when in big numbers (India) and totally dominating when in majority (pak, Bangladesh).

    So drop this act and behave like a typical muslim..totally communal and 24/7 thinking about Islam.

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    Rajeev Reply:

    The muslims are as Fascist or rather nazi in their ideology as pre WW II germans. You hate jews and want them decimated, you hate hindus (pagan) and want them subjugated.

    The only way you can be tamed is by defeating Arabic imperialism called Islam. You understand the language of force and god willing you will get it if you don’t mend your ways.

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    amy Reply:

    I though Karma was a Hindu belief ,whatever u wish for others comes back to u!I wish u all the best because u cant convince me or change my beliefs because u are very wrong. Stop wasting ur time energy and money!How can u claim that I may be a Muslim?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Rajeev,

    The very thought that we have nuts like you in this country is scary.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    The very thought that nutty cult Islam is called religion of peace makes me puke.
    You muslims are no better than Nazis in your attitude. Learn to respect others first and then earn our respect.

    I wish US bombs Kaaba and occupies it and when you fight to get it back, I’ll throw ayohdya at you.
    Why are you using p-name ‘Bobby’? Are you not proud of your arabic name?

    Jokers…

    shruti Reply:

    Islam makes you puke? You and your attitude make ME puke. Are you educated or what? Have you considered joining Taliban? It’s the right place for the loony fringe.

  • http://- Rajeev

    Amy,
    You may not be a muslim but you definitely sound like muslim apologist.
    I really don’t want to waste time on nuts like you because whatever we say is immaterial..all your inputs comes from your Jahil religious book called Quran.

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    Rajeev Reply:

    Amy,
    You have no clue about Karma..let me give you an example..
    1. Muslims invaded civillizations after that nut Mohammad created cult called Islam.
    2. You decimated persian civillization, followed by buddhists in Afghanistan and today-pakistan. You invaded India and scattered hindus like dust and called yourself Ghazi.
    3. You invaded Europe and subjugated Spain.
    4. You destroyed peaceful culture of southeast asia by spreading arabic cult.

    Now you are paying for your sins worldwide.
    This is called Karma. India has lot to learn from west on how to deal with your kind.

    [Reply]

  • Dola

    It is not about Hindus or muslims ,its actually brainless people like you who are responsible for all the destruction in this world.People like you belong to no religion, all they kno is how to prove his/her own superiority over others,you just worship one religion thats hatred, you are so egoistic that you can always find reasons to curb somebody , hate somebody and prove that wat u r thinkin was correct and that u r the one person who’s thinkin about humanity…and how? by belittling an entire community because of the doings of a handful of people, by denigrating their religion altogether.I am speechless and shocked …how can educated people think and talk like u do Rajeev.

    If you think people like you can create harmony in society then let me give you some reality check…people like u are actually responsible for all the riots and terrorism in this world…so get a life man!

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    Rajeev Reply:

    You will know all about Humanity and love once muslim become majority and force you to become mulsim and wear hijab. I guess you may be already doing that.

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  • Jasmine

    good job Dola… people like Rajeev need to be shown the reality.. He does not have any right to belittle any religion..

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  • http://- Rajeev

    Jasmine,
    You and Dola kind lives in fools paradise. Do you ever follow International press? The muslims have become biggest menace to world peace.
    You are talking all this mumbo-jumbo because your own family never got killed in terrorist strikes.

    I have no problem with Sufi Islam but if you look around most of the muslims are turning wahhabis in their behaviour.

    You people need to see reality because you are living in cuckoo land. Your kind of people have made India into a spineless country whereas US and China know how to deal with these pests.

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  • SKS Mumbai

    Yes all hate speech can be prosecuted under law except when Ordered by GOD himself

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    shruti Reply:

    Are you God’s messenger proclaiming so pompously when one can rightfully make a hate speech? Sadly for you, Indian laws are not that accommodating for self-appointed God’s spokespersons. Look what’s happening to Varun G…
    I am interested to know which God btw :-p

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  • shruti

    You seem to be singularly obsessed with Muslims and how they are ‘traitors’. I have to agree that some Shariah rules are rigid and the level of freedom one enjoys in India, one can’t imagine one would experience in Arab countries. But there is no need (or occasion) to paint every Muslim with the same brush. There have been some outstanding people- Dr. Kalam, SRK and the like who have proven beyond DOUBT that they are every bit as Indian as you are. You talk about how different Muslims are from us and in the same breath you talk of religious tolerance in Japan. Someone’s being really hypocritical here…
    You have missed the whole point of Zia’s amazing article too and taken it as an opportunity to spew venom.
    Now answer some of my questions if you can-
    1. Aren’t there any biased, hypocritical rabble-rouser Hindu guys? I can think of atleast ten nasty people who are downright rabid and poisonous in their denunciation of what they see as ‘Muslim-appeasement’.

    2. Why the bloody hell do Muslims have to PROVE their allegiance to India? It’s as if Hindus are the rightful Indians and Muslims are usurpers. No doubt, that’s what you think but India has a strong history of amalgation and blending of different, ethnically diverse races and it belongs to all- it’s not the sole property of anyone.

    3. Why, in the name of intellectual argument, are you throwing facts that are meant to make Muslims look bad? I can think of so many aspects of Hinduism that are unjust if not downright cruel- dowry, caste and ritualism are just some of them. Plus when someone like Bobby tries to counter your points, you are not willing to concede there might be truth in them.

    You have had bad experiences with Pakis and fuel your anger towards Indian Muslims. But they have suffered too- the stigma of ‘traitors’, Babri, Godhra, backwardness. You need to appreciate that EVERY community has its highs and lows. Try to enjoy the differences rather than resent them. And when an IRFAN PATHAN is ****ing the hell out of **** cricketers, no ONE Indian would support any other team than ours.

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    Ashish Reply:

    Hi Shruti,
    May I ask, what was so “amazing” about Zia’s article?
    His assertion that Islamic state is the same as Ram Rajya? And, of course, “Swaraj is a sacred Vedic word”.. where on earth did he get that one from?
    Or, Vasudha eva Kutumbakam means “Allah is creator of all and will dispense justice according to deeds…” this was “mindblowing” to say the least; so, I went to Google and came up with rather interesting findings. See below.
    Honestly, would you not expect someone blogging in a mainstream publication to be a little more careful of his facts and take, ahem, poetic liberties with the meaning of a phrase basis an equally shaky article published by Reeta Bagchi about 5 years back?
    http://www.gandhifoundation.net/articles/com_harmony.htm
    If I copied a full 3 lines from an article, especially one making such an astounding assertion, should I not credit the source?
    Now, see something even more subtle. See the contemptuous dismissal of other, Muslim writers (I am almost certain it is a certain author who is in the midst of a book release, but let that pass…)…”Many Muslim writers sadly seek popularity by playing to the gallery, rather than dealing with the need to change mindsets. The topics chosen are the ones most palatable: pan Wahabism here and extol the virtues of Sufism there “.
    Who is the intolerant one here?
    It is not a valid argument that every community has the right to live in a modern nation state pretty much as they please. If that were so, none of the social evils that plagued India over the centuries would have been declared unlawful. It is fallacious to reason that first the community itself must want to change a certain practice (by an overwhelming majority) and then only can the lawmakers give voice to their need for change. Sometimes law leads, sometimes lags social change. But, rarely is a regressive law enacted to satisfy the obscurantist elements of a community as has been done in our haste to conform to a warped ideal of secularism.

    The core issue is not whether all religions have regressive and progressive ideals. Of course they do. But, blaming American imperialism as the core cause of Islamic violence is simplistic to say the least. So, why the violence in India (Indian imperialism in Kashmir). Why the bombings in Jakarta and Bali? Let’s acknowledge there is a problem. Again, it is not just me (a card carrying Hindu fundoo?, what an idea, madam-ji!) who says this. Please, do trawl the blogosphere and look for well known Muslim Indian bloggers. There are many who I admire for their intellectual rigour and honesty and passion for their cause. They do not live in denial.
    However, barring a few notable exceptions, all of them have a strict litmus test for who is a good Muslim and who is not. All our Bollywood Khans fail the test :-) , as do Shabana Azmi and Javed Akhtar. And, in their opinion, rules these worthies out from representing Muslims.
    There are many faultlines in the lithosphere, while we are jousting at the stratospheric level.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Well i can’t claim to know about the background, but Zia’s point was how building bridges between communities is no longer our leaders’ priorities. Every party is obsessed with garnering votes- even Congress which supposedly champions minority rights has never tried to put grave issues like Godhra and Babri in perspective. He contrasts it with the vision of Pre-independence leaders.
    As for ‘Vasudev Kutumbakam…’ surely you would agree that its translation ‘ All in the world belong to one big family’ finds resonance in Zia’s interpretation.
    The most crucial point here- I am NOT saying all communities can live as they please and need not abide by democratic values. When it comes to the uniform civil code and muslim women’s rights, I am firmly on the side of those demanding these changes. Though the intentions of the BJP in raising the issue of UCC are suspect, the point made is valid enough: Everyone should enjoy the fruits of democracy and shouldn’t be hampered by their community’s beliefs. Otherwise, we would still have barbaric practices like Sati for Hindu women.
    My point was to address those who hold an irrational, rabid dislike for all things related to Islam. Every individual is unique and humanity requires that we treat everyone with respect. There were some kindly-intentioned writers here who wanted every namaz-reciting person relocated to our neighbouring country. Is that just and democratic?
    I was simply asking them to appreciate that there are several good things about every religion and we enjoy differences rather than feel threatened by them.
    Otherwise India would just become a great monolithic country of exactly similar people instead of the delightfully ‘mixed’ pickle it is at the moment. Surely we don’t want that?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Shruti,
    Surely not! (your last point first) but, at what cost and to whom? Unity in diversity is not just about diversity.
    Questions of National Identity and integration/assimilation are complex. Britain and France approach it very differently, as you perhaps know.
    Please, Shruti, if we start translating Vasudha eva Kutumbakam as “Allah will dispense… “, then we can say anything to mean anything. I would get caned by my 8th standard teacher!!
    I do not think our “leaders” are not concerned with Hindu-Muslim unity. I think, they have tried, what I call the “sweet nothings” theory for the last 60 years (say many sweet things, deliver nothing). The sorry, nay pathetic leadership of the Muslim community in India have performed only one function- deliver votes. If your prime concern at this day and age, as a community if you choose to be exercised by beard or no beard, burkha or no-burkha and you can be appeased by enacting medieval laws and if your clerics who dual-hat as leaders are only bothered about keeping status quo on Triple-Talaq, then don’t blame the politician class, who are venal, corrupt and amoral in most societies.
    And, only Muslims have not suffered. Tell me, what are the Dalits in UP getting from Mayawati except “self-respect” in the form of statues?
    Now, faced with an impatient electorate, who are increasingly ignoring divides of caste and religion to vote for bread and butter issues, the politicians are bringing economic agendas to the fore. Now to participate in the economic miracle that we all hope India is going to be, one needs to acquire marketable skills. I am afraid Namaz reading is not one of them. Don’t blame the government.
    Please read the links SKS points you to. Also, do believe me when I say the following:
    - the Quran has many explicit hateful passages which condone and even encourage violence against non-believers and apostates.
    - The Quran has many derogatory references to women and condones, even encourages ghastly practices. Don’t go by my saying; pick up authoritative translations (Pickthal or Yousufali) and you will see what I mean.
    Now, unless you repudiate, very publicly all those verses, terrorists will continue to breed in Madrassas around the world who will be fed those verses. Let me send you to a very interesting source: go to the Pak Tea House blog and search for articles on Madrassa reforms. Actually, they even advocate closing down of Madrassas; we can not do that in India; because we are secular? What kind of hypocrisy is that?
    As a Hindu, or a Christian or Jew your reactions to obscurantist tendencies preached in your religious text is, typically, “but, irrespective of what is given in the texts, I am damned if I allow myself to be governed by that..” If you do not see a fundamental difference in a Muslim reaction to obscurantism in his texts, well, what can I say?
    Listen, I am just a Hindu fundoo, non-secular, rabid sensation-monger..
    But, go ahead, read Vir Sanghvi’s article in HT http://bit.ly/6eN7u a week back on dual standards in our public discourse and answer the question that SKS raised:
    (SKS, apologies in advance if I am misinterpreting your question)
    When an individual commits a murder, he is punished if caught and found guilty.
    When a government through dereliction of duty at best and active complicity at worst, allows 3000 people to die in Gujarat or 10000 people to die all over India in 84 riots, that is genocide. You with me, till now?
    When an individual “insults” a Religion (take Salman Rushdie or that Dutch cartoonist), that is not accepted but, Hussein painting Saraswati in the nude is artistic freedom (BTW, I am firmly on the side of Hussein on this one)..
    When chapter and verse from a book written 1500 years back can be quoted and is quoted to justify the worst violence and prejudice against infidels, women and sexual minorities and apostates, and if that scares people and people ask questions (admittedly, the tone and tenor is intemperate but, honestly nothing compared with a certain Dr. Z), it is not proper??
    Why would not we, peace-loving people of any and all communities have the right to question a book with such dubious record in promoting peace?
    Do read Vir Sanghvi first. After all, I am just a Muslim bashing fundoo..

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Your attitude seems to be of blaming the victims.

    One has to understand the muslim situation in Post Independence India. The country was divided on the basis of religion, and since then, they have had to carry the cross of that event, especially thanks to the RSS, Sangh -parivar brigade, who have never stopped spreading the poison in people’s mind, questioning the patriotism of Muslims at every possible juncture.

    One prime example of such a crackpot hindutva a s s h o l e on this blog was Sanjeev. Now in such situations it is very understandable that People who share that label “muslim” would tend to flock together out of fear. In such situations people tend to look to leaders who speak about their muslim identity. This is rationally understandable behaviour. One has to understand the problem earnestly to try to solve it.

    You seem to suggest on the contrary that Muslims are some how different from all other humans in this respect, in that their behaviour can only be understood and attributed to what is written in the Quran. Not only is this absolutely irrational, its completely unfounded. There is no Evidence what so ever to show this.

    “As a Hindu, or a Christian or Jew your reactions to obscurantist tendencies preached in your religious text is, typically, “but, irrespective of what is given in the texts, I am damned if I allow myself to be governed by that..” If you do not see a fundamental difference in a Muslim reaction to obscurantism in his texts, well, what can I say?….”

    Well what you should say is that “I am wrong”. Do you seriously believe that Hindus and Christians have overcome all the “obscurantist tendencies” written in their texts. Well you see, I dont.

    All my experiences to date prove to me that people from ALL religions believe in “obscurantist tendencies”, and I think to roughly the same measure.

    You know what, I think you guys are either really naive to believe that, or you really do not care for facts.

    “but, Hussein painting Saraswati in the nude is artistic freedom…”

    This is yet another instance of you wishing away the facts. We all know how he was treated by the hindu right wing crack pots. He had run away from India, precisely because he did not feel safe here. I think the analogy with Rushdie is perfect, and this is one instance which proves that morons from all religions think alike.

    “BTW, I am firmly on the side of Hussein on this one…”

    I think the word firmly is misplaced here, because where you in fact “firmly” on his side, I do not think you would have used if’s and but’s like you did.

    “When chapter and verse from a book written 1500 years back can be quoted and is quoted to justify….”

    Can you name me ONE religion, whose beliefs can not and have not been used to justify terrible atrocities?

    “and people ask questions (admittedly, the tone and tenor is intemperate but, honestly nothing compared with a certain Dr. Z), it is not proper??….”

    What is very clear is that you try very hard to justify the mentality of such a s s h o l e s like Sanjeev. It is not just the “tone and tenor” that is the problem, that is just a symptom, the disease is his mentality.

    “Why would not we, peace-loving people of any and all communities have the right to question a book with such dubious record in promoting peace?…”

    Well you see, the problem with this is that then you would have to compare its “dubious record in promoting peace” to some other book, which has a good record in “promoting peace”. And the problem is I really cant find any other.

  • Bobby

    Dear Crackpot Sanjeev,

    “what about moral obligation ?”

    You are using the same language as rulers of theocratic states like the taliban for instance use, even though you claim to despise them! Governments should not be in the buisness of moral policing.

    There are rules as to who can become a citizen and how. There are rules for citizens in the country. A model citizen is supposed to do that, and help his/her society to be a less unjust place.

    As far as moral obligations are concerned, I dont see what further obligation is there other than simple ones like helping people near you in time of need. But these are not things Govt can or should impose.

    “Surya namaskar you compare with religious shrine. How pathetic…”

    We seem to be forgetting who said what here…Not me, you compared the two. Please go back and check how this Suryanamaskar discussion came in here in the first place.

    “All muslims are not terrorists but its true that all terrorists are muslims ”

    No its not true.

    “The way some people feel mistrust about BJP some other people have right to feel mistrust for a community…”

    You are just showing your communal mentality with every line you are writing here.

    “Hindus are hindus by birth….”

    NO. No one is hindu or muslim by birth. One may be born into a family which follows Islam or hinduism, just like one may be born into a family which is a BJP or congress supporter. But that does not make the son of a congress man, a congress man by birth does it???

    Because religion is not a biological trait. One can be male or female by birth, thats all.

    Again, please stop seeing things from only one perspective, this way of thinking about things is really detrimental to society.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Shruti
    Your response to my comment sums up half of the INDIAN SECULAR argument, which is basically Clueless.

    As for the other half, this and many similar posts are littered with shining examples of that argument.
    Mostly it ends up with ” It is not true”
    Or by “motherhood” statements of the type “Sabka Malik Ek”

    And the Ultimate winner is to apply labels like rabid hindu, RSS wallah etc. For variety add Moron, Crackpot etc.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Yes to ppl who have closed their minds to any sort of ’secular arguments’, every rational thing one says would look weak and ‘clueless’, right? There are so many children in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine who have never seen their parents, play with guns instead of toys, see buildings being blown up everywhere. Their only crime is that they are Muslims. If you have not noticed, it’s muslims who are facing the brunt all over the world. Big Brother America’s feathers are ruffled- the same country which earns trillions selling weapons, and what do they do? They decide to blow up middle-eastern, oil-rich countries in the name of war against ‘axis of evil’.
    This mindset psychotic hatred of muslims is not intrinsic to Indian culture- it is an American import. And the rabid hindu tag applies very well to ppl who leave no chance to downgrade muslims.
    One is fully justified in calling Hate-propagators whatever one likes

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    Shruti
    If you did not notice, It is not the secular arguments I am talking about, it is “Indian Secularism”. Do not delude yourself that. you are speaking for Secularism.

    Just Ruffling the feathers is the nice sweet arguments often thrown by these type of seculars. BTW if your nice sweet friends ever had a chance to do What US could, would you get any prize for guessing what would have happened to US. Nope. This sweet nice game of feather- ruffling is question of capability not the intent.

    About Iraq, Afghanistan etc, do a little search and find out about BARBARY wars.

    As for your belief about what You call “Muslim Bashing” imported from US to India, do yourself a small favor, read the persian history translated in English http://persian.packhum.org/ written by those sweet feather ruffling angels about their sweety-sweety games and more importantly, their honey dripping philosophy.

    For your fully justified labelling license, I only have to say this: Modern definition of a “Hate Propogator” is one who is winning his argument with a “secular or liberal”

    [Reply]

    amy Reply:

    Why are u scard to accept such labels when u are ready give them to others.Own up to them , or do u appear in bad light which u dont want to,or would want to appear more righteous but unfortunately dont.Like they say if u point a finger to others four will still point to u. Agar sabaka malik ek to uske bache kyn nahin hai ek?Today no discriminated Indian citizen need the umbrella of secularism whether in Australia( Dr.Hanif case) or India.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    So basically with your oh-so-superior and sophisticated argument, you are declaring your intent to hold all muslims in contempt and suspicion. There are undoubtedly several differences between hindus and muslims and i am fully aware of certain regressive aspects of islam, especially towards women. BUT that doesn’t take away their right to live as they like. After all, which religion can boast of being ideal and perfect?
    Secularism is when you don’t allow religion to colour your opinion of any individual. If anyone has done you any harm, you should definitely condemn him/her. But you shouldn’t condemn a whole community just because they are different.

    [Reply]

    samaj Reply:

    Shruti,

    ” i am fully aware of certain regressive aspects of islam, especially towards women”:
    I have this question for you:
    Which religion in its original form gives women the right to refuse being forced into a marriage she does not like?
    Which religion in its original form give the rights to women to dissolve a marriage?
    Which religion in its original form gives women inherrtance right from her parents and husband’s properties?

    Please do your own research.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Simple answer to ‘which religion…’- NONE, atleast not any of the major religions in the world today. There might be some matriarchal societies which are few and far between. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that most religious activities impose restrictions on women for the simple reason that these rituals have been conceived by men. They obviously felt that a woman’s place is in the kitchen. Not that I care, being an atheist myself.
    But Samaj, two wrongs never make a right and you can’t justify loss of women’s rights in one religion by pointing to another. My statement was completely true and i stand by it even now.

  • shruti

    hI Ashish!
    First things first- I never called you a Hindu Fundoo. My remarks were meant for certain others. In fact, you come across as eminently sane, if a little biased. Bobby has addressed most of the points you raised very creditably. But there are certain things I would like to mention.
    I have read read Vir Sanghvi’s article and whole-heartedly support it. It talked about the lack of clarity in ideology of the supposed secular liberals. These are the worst defendents of Muslims as they seem to be as pro-everything-muslim as RSS is anti-muslim, handing out arguments without rhyme or reason. I hope I am not that. I know all religions nurture and propagate certain biases and islam is no exception.
    That ’sweet nothings’ theory you came out with is the The Banning Frenzy Theory of Indian Secularism in my mind. Being an essentially God-loving, deeply religious country India adopts a ‘Please-all’ policy. If some loony group’s Religious Sentiments Are Hurt and they raise an outcry, the Indian Government makes haste in assuaging their feelings. A blanket-ban on the offending movie, book, painting, person(!) follows.
    It can be a bit exasperating at times but i can confidently say that there’ll be no other kind of secularism in India atleast for the next couple of centuries.
    The other alternative is of course Brit or French view of secularism as you pointed out. In those countries, ’secular’ is anything not connected with religion. Their view of course shapes their attitudes which are diametrically opposite to those of India’s. Consider the case of the Sikh school-girl who wished to wear her kadaa to school.
    The line that followers of other religions look down on obscurantist tendencies of their religion is inane beyond belief. I seriously doubt if you live in India or some fantasy-land.

    In a previous entry you said that I am being simplistic in connecting terrorism to America. That would entail a lot of explanation but I can tell you it’s not simplistic at all. Trace Uncle Sam’s imperialistic ambitions from 1945 onwards and you’ll see a pattern. Taliban, for instance, is the Frankenstein that rebounded on its creator.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Amna (Amy),
    It is rather strange that people who believe in full implementation of Sharia are taking refuge in secular IPC.
    If you think, I am spreading hatred then I can prove every muslim does that all the time.
    1. The five time call for prayer (AZAAN) over the balring speakers proclaims “There is no god but allah and Mohammad is his last messenger” in Arabic. You loudly reject belief of majority hindus and reject their concept of God and on top of that you reject hindu avatars. You spread this hatred in Arabic so nobody understands what you are doing.
    2. Every muslim reads Quran which is very dismissive of non-beleivers (kafirs). Isn’t the doctrination of hatred?

    I have no problem in saying that Ishwar = Allah and Rama = Mohammad but can you do the same?
    Your answer will show everyone who beleives in hatred.

    The problem is that you think respect is one way street but it is not so.
    What you are doing here is practicing Taqia?

    I urge you to look inwards and may be visit faithfreedom.org (a site maintained by ex-muslims) and see reality.

    I don’t intend to carry on this conversation with close minded people. I have utmost request for Sufi muslims but I can stand wannabe arabs who keep on dishing lies after lies.

    Shruti,
    I am pretty sure you are in teens. I was also a fool like you once upon a time.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Rajeev,

    “I was also a fool .. once upon a time.”

    Be sure that you are still one.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You are bigger fool than me for believing that “Islam is religion of peace”. Islam is everything but peace.
    You can fool gullible hindus but not someone who knows muslims inside out.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Hi Ashish
    That was largely the point

    Shruti
    Where did you get the impression that I am questioning Muslim’ s right to live?
    Also do let me know how did you reach the conclusion that I intend to hold all muslims in contempt and so on for the acts done by a few.

    If anything written by me really means what you have concluded above, I do apologize here and now. It was never the intent. As a matter of fact, I know that there are millions of Muslims who are fine with the idea of India as their country.

    As regards holding a community responsible for acts of few individuals, that certainly is wrong but to believe that Ideology plays no part in those acts is plainly immature. Consider someone murdered by a naxalite or a dalit being humiliated by a upper caste Hindu, are you not mistaken in believing that
    However there also exists a not so insignificant number of Muslims who are convinced that India is following Shaitanic democracy, that it should actually be ruled under Sharia, that Aurangzeb was the greatest ruler in the history of India, that Jihad is obligatory for Muslims. ( If some people want to ask me on what basis I say so, to those my answer is simply keep your eyes shut and you will get the truth soon)

    About the grand game of Interpreting Jihad, yes I am told it means “to struggle”. Your statement about there being some debate whether Jihad is self reformation or holy war is simply put another exhibition of your cluelessness. Please note that there is no doubt that Jihad can be used for self reformation and also for holy war and for many others things because it only means “to struggle”. What you need to know is that the Greatest Jihad in the eyes of Allah is the fighting the non-beleivers (yes yes variants do exist) and that entitles one to Top most heaven. There are quite a few levels of heaven. For those claiming Jihad only means a struggle for self reformation, we only need to understand whether they are really ignorant or pretending to be so. In fact as per many Scholars of Islam the incident in which Prophet is supposed to have said that is from a weak Hadith. I can but am avoiding referring you to those sites which are crystal clear on this subject and they are mainstream by all means.
    For those who think that a 1500 year old book has little relevance for guiding today’s muslims, they don’t have to go too far. This site itself will give them a reality check.

    It is really funny that you blame Sanjeev an Rajiv for misinterpreting? Seriously, did they send the e-mails to TV channels before ripping apart many cities with bombs ? Do you think there is any reason for Non-Muslims to do so when there are numerous terrorists who do that every day?

    I disagree that US is in some form responsible for Islamic Terrorism, as I have mentioned earlier go and check Barbary wars. That is the classic definition of state sponsored terrorism. US actions may have played some role but we all know that One man can take the horse to a river but twenty cannot make it drink. BTW any explanation why did the US not pick up the Buddhists or some christians for that?
    Terrorism as we understand today and believe somehow to be a recent phenomenon, is just a new strategy. The political objectives were always there and were pursued with less or more vigour all through the ages.

    I know you don’t like history but we can’t help that. If you insist on arguing without reading much, you need to find people who will agree to argue on the basis of same set of information as you posess

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    sorry to inform u but nobody stopped u from taking the refuge of the law yourself because u are wrong morally and legally.U cant stop anyone from practising their religion either coz they will expect the same of u.Besides what authority do u have? Do u see the stalemate.Ur ignorance is evident when u claim respect is two way that’s exactly what this forum has been doing and all u are doing play a tune of ur own to which u know u are not being supported coz its not acceptable or workable in the politiucal system we live in. Sorry its too late ,such views always existed on both sides but that’s where they will have to.Nobody claimed the accusation u are claiming in the current discussion.So stop inventing what muslims say or do or did historically or because only facts with evidence count .

    [Reply]

  • shruti

    Ashish,
    ‘When chapter and verse from a book written 1500 years back can be quoted and is quoted to justify…’
    You have your finger on the crux of the problem and still refuse to see the solution. Any person with vested interests would quote and interpret any passage in Quran or any other book to suit himself. ‘Interpret’ is the operative word here. The same passage can be worked out to be something quite innocuous. Consider the unending debates on whether ‘Jihad’ actually stands for a lifelong struggle towards improvement of self or the literal ‘Holy War’ against non-believers. ‘Non-believers’ again has so many connotations. But ppl like Rajiv and Sanjeev would interpret things just like they please which is why they seem prejudiced.
    Rajiv found something subversive even in the Call to Prayer. Next he’ll be seeing conspiracies in babies’ diapers.
    The ‘poor leadership’ of Muslims is yet another key to understanding their issues. It is completely false that they are only concerned with maintaining the status-quo on medieval practices. The ppl, supposed representatives of the community, who scream for status-quo don’t represent the ordinary man’s views. Liberal voices of any religion or community rarely get heard but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    We all know how much ‘artistic freedom’ Hussein or even the Da-Vinci Code were allowed in our country, so I am surprised you even took that line.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    Shruti,
    It is apparent that you are unable or unwilling to read; I find it exasperating when I have to waste time explaining the difference between the British and French approach to racial integration; yes, there is a lot of difference. They are far being being the same. Don’t jump in to debate when you come across as so uninformed. As a favour, and for the last time, rummage through the recent archives of the Economist (neo-con/ reactionary/ biased/ idiotic… but, that’s just you and me. The rest of the world gives it some credibility)

    Instead of wasting time here, please complete your education, or start working towards it. Your answers to Samaj’s question was funny as well. Basically you have views formed on hearsay but no reading.
    Re’ poor leadership, read Kaleem Kawaja in indiamuslims.in. Of course, you can freely interpret what he says (like in Koran/ or in Vasudhaeva Kutumbakam .. what next? Satyameva Jayate?).
    My interpretation of what he writes, in simple English is that the Muslims in India are unfortunately saddled with a leadership almost totally formed of clerics who do not do any good to their cause. And, he is not the only one.
    Read Sadia Dehlvi when she writes of the danger from Political Islam.
    Read Asghar Ali Engineer, when he talks about how Muslims should be working to abolish Triple Talaq and the opposition he faces from the MPLB (know what that is?)
    Alas, I only read articles written by fellow “biased” fundoos as above.

    @Samaj, the answer to all your questions is Islam. Happy?

    To you and your fellow uninformed debater: a blogger keeps the company he deserves, at HIS mental level.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Ashish,
    You are absolutely right. I did not intensively research the roots of Islam or any other religion for that matter coz despite all the links you ppl provided, i didn’t feel compelled to. However, that doesn’t mean i believe in hearsay. I believe what i see all around me and face realities. Not for me the hypothetical situation of WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN rather than WHAT IS- women getting equal status in islam or any other religion. I am content to accept the ground situation. If women had the right to choose whom to marry, there would be no honour killings. If women had the right to property, The Shah Bano case would not have made such an uproar. I can’t imagine divorce proceedings initiated by women to be a cake-walk either. Conceded Samaj asked to research ‘original form’ but as i said i had no inclination to delve into pure hypothesis of Ideal Islamic State.
    As to your reference to Sadhvi Delvi et al, you are getting a bit muddled here. I took exactly the same stance you were holding forth. Muslim clerics and MPLB (sorry to diasabuse you, but i do know what that means) wield a lot of clout and are the ones demanding status quo. But does that refute my argument that they might not necessarily represent an ordinary man’s views? Please do read what i have written about muslim leadership, UCC and the like before heaping accusations of being ill-informed.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Amy
    No, being labelled is not a problem, especially if labelled by people like you

    The problem is that Indian seculars believe that labelling someone is the most powerful arguement. Sadly it is not.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    Go back and read who is labeling who

    samaj Reply:

    Shruti,

    It may be convinient to “believe what i see all around me and face realities”.

    I completely understand your stand – law is there in books but, negligible few follow. Its like practically seeing implementation of law in any country when dealing with commoners and celebrities – the latter get off with a rap on wrist for a crime which is dealt with seriously if the committed by a comman man – this does mean constitution of the country is at fault – its the implementers who are at fault.

    I want to make a point that Islam cannot be faulted for mistakes committed by muslims who, unfortunately are ignorant of their own religion and its laws.

    Honor killings and shah banoos are more based on social practices than any thing to do with Islam.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Samaj,

    I think your point is totally irrelevant.

    Whether Quran grants women these rights or not should be a criteria for the relevance or irrelevance of the Quran, NOT the other way round.

    I mean, EVEN if the Quran had verses saying the exact opposite about woman’s rights than what you mention, it would not have been a valid argument against having such equality between Men and Women, rather it would have meant that we should simply ignore what the Quran says at least about this issue.

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    @Samaj, the last line in my response above was directed at Shruti and not you; I apologise if you misunderstand.

    [Reply]

  • Shruti

    Rajeev,

    Are you a Hindu loner among a bunch of Muslims? why do you crib about Muslims? have you never played with any muslim friend or haven’t you ever visited them?

    Dont generalize Pakistan or Islam as bad. Hope you will learn to think more broad with an open mind.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Shruti,
    You really don’t make any sense. I am sure you have never interacted with muslims when they are in majority.
    I’d like you dismiss your thoughts cause you sound naive.

    You think whole western world is fool for doubting muslim countries. Show me one non-muslim country where muslims are not creating trouble.

    I really doubt if your are shruti..you sound more like Samina ;)

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    Rajeev,
    OK this is embarrasing. I never wrote that post to you. I am assuming you are talking to me- the one who has been posting comments for the past few days. Writing to you is an exercise in pointlessness coz your mindset is rigid beyond the scope of argument and i am well aware of that.
    Samina is a bful name. See nothing wrong in that. If you think i am insulted you are mistaken.

    PS:-You don’t have to go with alliteration though, each time you are dreaming up muslim names. It shows a lack of imagination.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Samina,
    I am not rigid. My beef is with those muslims who are rigid and refuse to reciprocate good gestures by other communities.

    I say we will allow a Mosque next to Ram janambhoomi but are they willing to allow contruction of temples in Saudi Arabia (forget about next to Kaaba). They get agitated when Sarkozy bans burqa but when western women visit muslim majority middle-east countries, these fundoos make them wear hijab.

    When people like Arundhati write about plight of muslims in INDIA, they are hailed by muslim community but Taslima Nasreen writes about ill-treatment of Hindus in bangladesh, our Indian muslims hound her out of the country.

    If they want respect, we will give them respect but on condition that they reciprocate in the same way.

    Now you know, I am not rigid. I was muslims to be treated as equal not some heavenly beings who should never be offended.

    I have muslim friends and they know if they ever try to demean hinduism by asking stupid questions like “Is Rama myth?”, “Do you guys drink go-mutra?”, I ask equally mean questions back.
    I am not the one who will say ‘ADAAB’ to please them, I also make them say Namaste once in a while.

  • shruti

    SKS,
    ‘Terrorism as we understand today and believe somehow to be a recent phenomenon’.
    How recent??
    1991?
    1995? OR
    9/11, 2001?
    I think you know the answer. The russo-usa tug-of-war in the geographically strategic afghanistan, US meddling in the Kashmir issue, The Gulf wars, Gaza Strip ( Israel wouldn’t have been able to face global community without US support).
    Don’t presume any of the above (except Gaza) is anything remotely connected with religion.
    ‘US not pick up the Buddhists or some christians’-
    Ever heard of Japan? Cuba? Vietnam? Banana republics? All this is straying from the issue but the point is- we should not view everything from the prism of religion.
    I did read up on Barbary wars this time- A classic example of commercial, nay mercenary interests of the North African countries thinly cloaked behind the veil of religion. At the end of the war, they got what they wanted- money from the US. Oldest story in the world. History is littered with such vile barbarism committed in the name of religion.
    O.K. you may think i am determined not to blame that one community no matter what ‘damning evidence’ you ppl give. But ‘tali kabhi ek hath se nahi bajti’.

    [Reply]

  • shruti

    SKS,
    As for your second argument about some ppl glorifying Aurangazeb, ‘lunatic fringe’ is my answer. There are several who think Hitler had all the right ideas- some prominent, telly-friendly, non-M Indians! There are Christian fundoos and evangelists whose ideas of how the world should be run would put the ‘medieval’ Arabs to shame. I see no one is talking about that. I could come up with shining examples of ‘religious tolerance’ cutting across all religions if i researched the net like you ppl do, but as i said earlier, i have no inclination to do so. Hence, the accusations of not-wanting-to-read.
    My point here- again the same as above- don’t view everything through the prism of religion. It will get us nowhere.

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Shruti

    Oh so you went all the way to 1991 for finding the origin of terrorism! I was talking in terms of centuries not years! Of course that is not very interesting to you.

    So Barbary wars were “thinly cloaked” behind the veil of religion. I wonder how you define Transparent!

    And I am also supremely impressed with your Profound Arguments that Tali kabhi ek hath se nahi bajti. This is the type of motherhood arguments I classify under “sabka malik ek”

    US picked up on Japan, cuba etc. So how many Japanese terrorists were arrested in Pakistan or in Somalia? What about Vietnamese and cuban variety ? Did you find them in Kashmir?

    And on Kashmir now, you think it has nothing to do with religion? God Bless You.

    You don’t see anybody talking about Christian fundoos and Indian supporters of Hitler. Is it because the whole world is conspiring against Muslims? Or something else? Oh must be tali and do hath theory.

    Many thanks for reiterating that Ideology ( you call it religion) is irrelevant and we should never look at the ideology and should treat every crime as an independent variable oh, sorry as a function of Tali and do hath theory and/or of commercial parameters.

    I am converted and done!

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    sks,
    Me! I am converted too! Next time i see a bearded gent, i’ll know how to look right through his soul. Individuality counts for nothing, nature has no role to play, it’s the Ideology that matters above all else.
    When you talk of hostile political schemes, doubtless you are talking of those Mirza Ghalibs, writers, scholars, that rich Hindustani heritage. Plz don’t mention Ghori-Ghazni- there were Aryans before them.
    Kashmir, atleast from India’s point of view was never anything to do with religion. It was more a geo-political matter of securing our borders through the mountain-cover. For USA, again, it was more a matter of its benign policy towards pakistan than anything else.(that again had motives of course). I was speaking from these two perspectives, not Pakistan’s.
    It’s o.k. for the US to pick up on countries no match for it and expect others to take it lying down? Given, its repeated notoriety in spreading peace, surely the USA must also be following some ideology. I wonder what that may be- except selfish promotion of its interests, commercial and political. But the commercial theory doesn’t pass muster, right?
    I don’t remember ever saying ideology doesn’t play a part. Islamic terrorists are of course brainwashed and fed on a staple diet of ideology- one will be foolish not to admit that. Please don’t put words in my mouth. My purpose throughout has only been to address that irrational loathing of muslims and to ask ppl to give every person a chance instead of applying labels. Yes, ppl on the other side of the argument are equally adept at that and with less justification.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    And I forgot about your comment on followers of Aurangzeb. If you wish to call them Lunatic, I don’t agree but won’t object too strongly.

    If you want to call them “fringe” then that is a problem. Because they are not. And again to find out the reality you would have to search the net, blogs and comments there and fortunately, you are not too interested in those mundane activities. Puhleeeze don’t tell me that those writing on blogs do not represent anyone and are just a “fringe”

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    SKS,

    “Puhleeeze don’t tell me that those writing on blogs do not represent anyone and are just a “fringe””

    Just this last line shows your hypocrisy. This blog for instance is littered with people like Sanjeev, Rajeev and other “fringe” elements, but of course only one set of people fit your definitions.

    You know when you talk of religious bigotry among Muslims then you have all the facts and figures, somehow when it comes to Hindu bigots, you seem much more sympathetic… the hypocrisy is very transperent…………

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    @SKS
    Reading interferes with education: TV viewing and such like.
    Ah, 1991 is all we can think backwards to?
    @Shruti, did US intervene on the sides of the Bosnians or the Serbs? And, their religion? Quick… You know, when the Serbs ended up killing some 200K Bosnians..
    When you do not read, you have only your opinions (eyes shut or open, does not really matter) to contribute to a debate. However, we are concerned with facts.
    In your worldview, Muslims are victims. The whole world is out to finish them.
    Okay, so.
    When they are in a majority, like in all of the Gulf countries, they get victimised by the US.
    When they are in a minority, they are victimised by the ruling community like the Hindus.
    Poor Muslims!
    Fortunately, I know several Muslims, here and abroad who will laugh at this worldview.

    Terrorism practiced by some Muslims today derives sanction from their religious texts. This is because, rightly or wrongly, these texts are held to be immutable by a large majority of the Muslims. This absolutism is dangerous because even contextualisation (the time-period or the social mores of those days) is resisted.
    Okay, very recent history. The famous Deobandi Fatwa of June 2008 against terrorism. See what this Muslim website says about it:
    http://sunninews.wordpress.com/2008/06/04/truth-of-darul-uloom-deoband-s-fatwa-against-terrorism/
    I honestly believe Muslims in India have a shared destiny if only they show the courage to claim it. It would mean strong leadership (the present lot is laughable and clueless), it would mean a greater pre-occupation with this-worldly things rather than other worldly things.. and, all this will not happen tomorrow. It will take time. The government has to give the necessary push, in the right direction. A secular education is a good start.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    The fact that US is one of the main contributors to global terrorism, both directly and indirectly is acknowledged the world over and EVEN in the US. In fact one of the important points raised by the 9/11 enquiry commission was precisely that US foreign policy is a big reason for fueling hatred in the Mideast. These are US sources acknowledging the problem.

    So the US is not against Islam, but its actions majorly contributes to Islamic terrorism, just like it creates hatred in the countries of South America, for the terrorist actions it has undertaken there over several decades.

    “Terrorism practiced by some Muslims today derives sanction from their religious texts…”

    That is a very small part of the problem.

    Many verses of the religious books of the Hindus, Christians and Jews can be used to sanction various atrocities. In fact the Jewish belief that Israel is the promised land for them, is strongly believed by fundamentalist Jews and even fundamentalist Christians, BUT that is not the reason behind the atrocities committed by the Israeli government on the Palestinians.

    I think that the number of crackpots who genuinely believe word to word of these books, and would justify killing people solely because its “sanctioned in the books” and because of reasons which are “other-wordly” is very small. These are people you can not argue with because they are brain washed.

    However the major problem is the fact they are able to get moderate people who are not as brain washed as they are, to carry out operations. And this they are able to do, because they can show them examples of real world injustice being done to a group of people and then establish a connection between the victims and them.

    In some cases the stories of injustices are just invented, but in several cases the injustice is very true and transparent. The condition of Palestinians and the fact that Israel get away with it, despite world opinion (save the US) being against it , being one.

    The people who took part in the Gujarat massacre were not all murderers or fundamentalists. Of course there were fundamentalists of the Sangh Parivar who really believed that all “muslims were Babar ke santano” who had to kicked out of India, but they were a few in number.

    The bigger number had to be brain washed about how every muslim is a criminal because he shares the religious identity with the killers of the Godhra incident.

    They need to be repeatedly lied to…..as Sanjeev does, about how muslims are all traitors, and how they are all supporting Pakistan in cricket matches and therefore of course are not patriotic, and how they were involved in conspiracy theories of increasing their population to take over India. And they are also helped by the fact that there are many terrorist organizations who do act in the name of Islam.

    There is nothing about “Muslim behaviour” that is special in this respect or needs to be understood in the the light of “any verse written in the Quran”. This would be a case of looking in the wrong direction.

    The reasons indeed lie in recent history and the way global powers act. The Quran or the Gita are not the problem.

    And finally, reading books is important…. but its more important to be able to think on your own.

    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    SKS,
    you led me to believe that Aryan invasion is not considered one of the reasons for demise of IV civilisation now, that it is an older version. But a simple Google search showed me that what I had studied in my 7th std text-book still holds true. Possible Reasons specifically listed- stagnation of economy, course of Indus river changing and Northern invasion as the final straw. ‘Aryan barbarism’ as opposed to Dravidian sophistication was also specifically listed.
    Before you jump down my throat for calling Aryans barbaric, let me clarify that no race is born sophisticated. It improves over time as the Aryans obviously did.

    Indian Reply:

    To the commentators on history,

    Perhaps a reading of “the eminent historians” by Arun Shourie with help in guiding the discussion. Gives fact based insights on how and why history was written the way it was in india. There is mention of romila thapar. My two cents.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    Your “two cents” is worth not even half a cent. Arun Shourie is NOT a professional historian, while Romila Thapar is a very reputed and accomplished historian. He has neither the knowledge nor the credibility to comment on the work of some one of Romila Thapar’s stature.

    He is just a mediocre politican and author, but this fact that gives his “insights” on history and historians as much credibility as much as one would give the work of say Shahrukh Khan if he decided to give some “insights” on Einstein’s work.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby, – Please refrain from commenting what my two cents are and talk about the issue. I do not need a value judgement.

    Second – have you read the book at all or have you decided to write just as is? He has gone to ICHR and reproduced exact PHD thesis word to word and then provided his comments. Read it and then if you have observations, I will be happy to acknowledge.

    Also, he is no “mediocre” politician and author. He was rated the best minister in his govt., and is considered one of the best journalists india has ever produced if not the best. The only people who counter him are the leftists. Romila thapar’s version of history is marxist history, which has niether the “Credibility” nor the “stature” that you mention.

    Bobby Reply:

    Indian,

    When one has no clue of what one is taking about, its always a good idea to shut up.

    What Romila Thapar’s stature is, cannot be a matter of personal opinion, its an established fact.

    She is an internationally renowned historian, who holds several prestigious academic positions through out the world and has won numerous awards, the most famous being the “Kluge prize”. To know what the criteria for this prize is, just type Kluge prize on Google, or let me simply quote, from wikipedia.

    “…..the Kluge prize rewards lifetime achievement in the wide range of disciplines not covered by the Nobel Prizes. Such disciplines include history, philosophy, politics, anthropology, sociology, religion, criticism in the arts and humanities, and linguistics. The award is at the financial level of the Nobel awards.

    The prize is international; the recipient may be of any nationality, writing in any language. The main criterion for a recipient of the Kluge Prize is deep intellectual accomplishment in the human sciences. The recipient’s body of work should evidence growth in maturity and range over the years. The recipient will have demonstrated unusual distinction within a given area of inquiry and across disciplines in the human sciences. Significantly, the recipient’s writings should be, in large part, understandable and important for those involved in public affairs.” …. ”

    Also, how are the candidates decided…again from Wikipedia:

    “…..In order to ensure consideration of as wide a pool of candidates as possible, in 2001, the Librarian of Congress solicited nominations for the Kluge Prize from a broad range of individuals knowledgeable about the humanities and social sciences in colleges, universities, and research institutions across the globe, as well as from independent scholars and writers.

    In 2002, the Librarian of the Library of Congress called upon a Scholars’ Council of 20 preeminent scholars from around the world to consider the range of nominations. The council had been established to offer suggestions and advice on the choice of scholars to study at the John W. Kluge Center at the Library.

    Based upon extensive research and further recommendations, the director of the Office of Scholarly Programs prepared a list of candidates for the Librarian’s consideration in 2003. In addition to soliciting numerous outside reviews for each of these scholars, the Librarian called upon an expert staff of curators in the Library to conduct extensive biographical and bibliographical research as well as to gather published reviews and discussions of each candidate’s work, prepare abstracts of translations of key articles from material available only in foreign languages, and provide a brief characterization and evaluation of the scholarly corpus of the candidate.

    Finally, detailed dossiers on each candidate were sent to the members of the Final Kluge Prize Review Panel. Deliberating at the Library, this panel submitted its recommendations to the Librarian, who then made the final decision…..”

    Therefore, please do not EVER quote lay men like Arun Shourie, when you want to discuss the work of well-reputed academicians.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    Precisely my point. YOu need to shut up. You started the tirade, you have no points to counter in the book I referred, and now you go on a tangent on romila thapar’s credentials. You can also check the no. of awards won by arun shourie and by all mean he is no lay man. Idiots liike you are bigoted and have fixed views who are not ready to talk on issues.

    Romila thapar is a marxist historian which essentially means writing history to promote an idealogy and not to cover pure facts. It is not a matter of my personal opionion but of the opinion of many. You can google that fact up as well. In any case I was not on romila but on the book. Have you read the book or no? If no, then please do not bother replying.

    Indian Reply:

    Finally, I also now know reading your other posts as to why you do not like arun shourie. It is a different matter that you WILL NOT BE ABLE to challenge anything that he has written or get into a rationale discussion on the points he makes. You will only go on a tirade, oh but isnt that the point?

    Bobby Reply:

    My Indian,

    Again you have no clue about what original research is or how its evaluated.

    One criteria is citation by journals and research papers. This shows the impact that particular book has had. In the social sciences, “The arts and humanities citation index” is one such place where you can search.

    Fortunately in this particular case, its been recorded and given in the Wikipedia article on that book for instance….. Its exactly ONE. and the one citation it gets , cites it as follows :

    “an example of “reactionary orientalists’ reaction against a perceived attack on Indian spiritual values”.”

    Indian Reply:

    For the last time Bobby,

    Please read the book and then by all means read all associated material and then make the judgement. I am happy to discuss any matter then. You can also read some of his other books, for eg. the book on ambedkar or his book on governance (or mis-governance, which btw has reference to functioning of the govt, which he picked while his own party was running the govt.).

    Once you read the book, you will understand what he is criticting, what is the original literature he has read, studied, compared, what material he is referring to.

    Please do note that I am not passing a judgement on how good the book is, but asking you to read it. I am sure you are capable enough to judge the contents on your own merit and will not need a citation from someone else. Feel free to then read the citation also and make an independent judgement.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    Its not possible to read all the books in the world, nor is it necessary. Again to give the same analogy I gave earlier, If Shahrukh khan were to write a critic on some scientists work, then I would not go and read the whole book that SRK has written. Unless his work is taken seriously by scientists who work in the same field, I would conclude that the work has no credibility. Its the same situation here. Note that this is not to undermine Arun Shourie’s accomplishments as a journalist. But when he comments on things he does not understand, I give it the same value as I would give the crackpot Baba Ramdev when he says he can “cure” Homosexuality.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Samina,
    I am not rigid. My beef is with those muslims who are rigid and refuse to reciprocate good gestures by other communities.

    I say we will allow a Mosque next to Ram janambhoomi but are they willing to allow contruction of temples in Saudi Arabia (forget about next to Kaaba). They get agitated when Sarkozy bans burqa but when western women visit muslim majority middle-east countries, these fundoos make them wear hijab.

    When people like Arundhati write about plight of muslims in INDIA, they are hailed by muslim community but Taslima Nasreen writes about ill-treatment of Hindus in bangladesh, our Indian muslims hound her out of the country.

    If they want respect, we will give them respect but on condition that they reciprocate in the same way.

    Now you know, I am not rigid. I want muslims to be treated as equal not some heavenly beings who should never be offended.

    I have muslim friends and they know if they ever try to demean hinduism by asking stupid questions like “Is Rama myth?”, “Do you guys drink go-mutra?”, I ask equally mean questions back.
    I am not the one who will say ‘ADAAB’ to please them, I also make them say Namaste once in a while.

    By the way I come from lineage of Naqsbandi sufis. I wish all muslims were likes Sufis (inclusive and respectful). The day that happens righwing leaders both on hindu and muslim side will become irrelavant.

    As far as AMT Vs AIT is concerned, both are reagarded as theories due to lack of material evidences.
    Frankly speaking our Archeology department in India is full of Babus who have no interest in finding facts. They just go there to collect their salaries.

    Though Jesus is considered to be historical person, there is absolutely no material evidence to prove if he really existed but that doesn’t stops christians in believing jesus as their saviour.
    So minorities should stop questioning hindu belief (such as if Rama ever existed or is ayodhya his birth place) and respect the faith of 800+ million hindus and in return hindus should stop behaving like muslims and allow them to construct mosque within Ayodhya city limits.

    shruti Reply:

    You are the first in the line of receiving that message of inclusiveness and respect from Sufis. Believe me, you really need it. One aspect of the Ayodhya issue that strikes me is that if our leaders had shown the same amount of zeal in building schools, hospitals as they showed for constructing temples-mosques, India would have been a model welfare state by now. There are millions of places of worship in this country, but not too many institutions of education. The comparison between a democratic country like India which has no State religion and a country like S Arabia shows how much you value what you get here and take for granted.
    Sarkozy issue- No institution on this Earth should have the right to dictate to a woman what she should or should not wear. Plz read my views on UCC, muslim women’s rights etc before drawing me out in this debate.
    You could read something up on Malaysia’s culture, it would be a good diversion from the intensive research you do on Arab countries. It gives as much space to its minorities and respects their culture as any country with an ethnically diverse country can be expected to do. No doubt there might be shortcomings as is the case with India too, but it’s a largely minority-respecting country.
    You are right about one thing though. The history books of our country have not been updated in the light of new evidence and that is sad. At the least, a line about the ait argument should have been included.
    Every word you speak reeks of the intolerance you are accusing muslims of. Some might be intolerant so you decide you should be one too. But won’t that get you entangled in self-contradictions?
    I seriously doubt if you have muslim friends. How can they be ‘friends’ if you are always on the lookout for any supposed insults to your religion? Fine friendship this is, i’d rather have enemies.
    ‘the day that happens…’ Now who is being naive? Do you think zealots wait for some real offence to take place? No, they are parasites who create situations, spread hatred and feed on it. Me thinks all fundoos should be rounded up and locked in a prison in some far-off place. They’ll either finish each other or come out the best of friends. Either way, the world will be a better place to live in.

    Rajeev Reply:

    You are beyond reason. You think like a typical muslim always expecting others to bend.
    I have nothing to say to a religious nutjob like you.

    Rajeev Reply:

    I have a suggestion for you. Start reading..not only muslim viewpoint but also international press. You have some very naive views which shows that you have based your opinion solely based on some interaction with your so-called muslim friends.

    I am 100% sure that you are a muslim because you show all signs of an imposter(eapecially dodging difficult question).
    I have dealt with your kind on international forum for 15 years.

    Do you even know what is sufism? As per your brand of Islam, it is considered heresy.

    Bobby Reply:

    “So minorities should stop questioning hindu belief (such as if Rama ever existed or is ayodhya his birth place) and respect the faith of 800+ million hindus…”

    Well SKS, I hope you are reading this piece from Rajeev????

    Here you have a person who says …that his faith should be respected …..and wonder of wonders! he is not a muslim!!!

    “hindus should stop behaving like muslims…..”

    one more question SKS, did you have this person in mind when you made the comment on “people commenting on blogs who are not fringe elements” ??

    Rajeev Reply:

    Read my post in totality. I am only asking for muslim to reciprocrate in equal measure.
    If we allow you to build a mosque in Ayodhya, you should be open to the Idea of building temples in Saudia Arabia.

    As far as malaysia is concerned wafer thin 60% muslim majority has upper hand in the affair of this country. This is for your religious fundoo friends who refuse to even understand the issue.

    Amy Reply:

    are u back in India , when u are let me know?Little knowledge is very dangerous for u.Dont heat up.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Amna,
    I choose to ignore fundoos like you. Have you ever interacted with muslims in west including Indian ones.

    They all become Allama Iqbal from Iqbal the Indian, once they come in contact with fundoo brothers from mid-east countries.

    Indian Reply:

    Bobby,

    I do not understand why you start calling names to everyone right from the beginning. Did you have to use the word “crackpot” before ramdev? Is not not possible for you to put that sentence without making a value judgement?

    People (including a lot of the westerners) called yoga completely baseless. Now everyone is following it. BTW it still does not past the test of “modern scientific medical practice”. Never mind that.

    My point is that you conveniently use what works for you and make value judgements. You perhaps do not even know why he is called a noted journalist. You should read his articles and how he goes about “researching” for his journalism. But it does not matter.

    Now what do you say to people who are know historians, who are known philosophers, who are known spiritual and religious people and who are know academician and who have enough “credibility” who criticise islam and crticise it really badly ( I do not want to go into what they say and youi know why). Would you not recommend me and others reading the 144 suras myself and trying to find the real meaning instead of following some of these people. I know I would. And if the real meaning is islam means peace then that is the only thing I will believe. Who cares what those noted “credible” people say. This applies to every religion and to pretty much everything. The more you do your own research, the better, but do what you want to and choose as you deem fit.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Indian,

    Firstly I apologize if I was too rude.

    I called Ramdev a crackpot, only for his utterances. He might be a big yoga proponent, but if some one says he /she can “cure” homosexuality, then he/she is a crackpot.

    “BTW it still does not past the test of “modern scientific medical practice”…”

    I think thats right, and we should always remember that.

    Again, about Arun Shourie, its very simple point I am making, If he says something about a field he does not know about, and If experts on that field do not think its worth much, which is what is the case, regarding this field, then I wont take his book seriously.

    Regarding the point you mentioned, about religion. I do not know what it means to “criticize religion” ? Thats a very childish thing to do. I mean, of course there would be academic studies around the world where people do study the history of the place and times when a religion was founded , for instance the situation in Arabia during the time of Muhammad in the case of Islam, or the social situation in India during the time of the buddha and then try to understand why and how the religions became popular, and what changes it caused to the society.

    There are also comparitive studies, between religions, because religions have differences and commonalities etc…. So of course all these do get studied, but i dont understand what the point was that you try to make??

    “The more you do your own research, the better…”

    Well no doubt about that, but you surely realize thats its impossible to do so on all aspects of the world…which is why we have “specializations”.

    On the other hand, there are indeed amateurs in every field, who think that every thing that scientists in that field are doing is a fraud, and that he/she will disprove everything that was said by these “fraudsters”….such people usually are “crackpots”

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Shruti

    You impress again. Simple Google search showed you that “Possible Reasons specifically listed- stagnation of economy, course of Indus river changing and Northern invasion as the final straw. ‘Aryan barbarism’ as opposed to Dravidian sophistication was also specifically listed”.

    I can’t comment about which site has given you this quick result, for your information origin of Aryans is a huge academic debate, with various positions by various experts. One good reference would be “The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History. (London and New York: Routledge, 2005.) By Edwin Bryant, Laurie L. Patton http://books.google.co.in/books?id=8VnAk14pODsC&pg=PP1&dq=The+Indo-Aryan+controversy&lr=lang_en&as_brr=3&as_pt=BOOKS (You can a get a limited view without paying for it in cash but you may have to spend your precious time)

    The Book Overview reads like this:
    “For the first time in a single volume, this book presents the various arguments in the Indo-Aryan controversy. It also provides a kind of template for the basic issues involved in the debates by addressing four major areas. ……………………………………….. Finally, intellectual historians contribute histories of the debates, and assessments of the state of the current arguments and their ideological roots. ………………”

    The book essentially contains articles by all schools of thought on this debate, so you can get all possible views but there is one aspect which might disappoint you:

    Excerpt from “Introduction” by Laurie L. Patton:

    …………….“we exist in a world of global conflict without global governance; and the question of Aryan origins has become a global academic conflict with a dire need for common rules of debate without anticipation Edwin Bryant’s excellent and cohesive “Concluding Remark”, I might end by observing that , even in these articles there are, however, emerging consensus of a certain sort:
    First, very few, if any archaeologists or linguists “EMBRACE THE INVASION THEORY”, and have not done so for several decades…………..”

    You must try and find her (Patton’s ) connections with RSS/BJP and let me know. This also happens to be my last response to you, as by now I am firmly convinced that I cannot match your superiority in “Quick researches” and “Quick conclusions”

    Bobby Reply:

    My understanding about the Aryan origin debate is that the “The Aryan Invasion theory” is mostly discredited. Also the “out of India theory” can be safely ruled out.

    I think the situation is that there is a consensus among the community that the Aryans migrated from outside, and that this very likely happened in several batches. I guess the questions which are debated are

    (1) Where did they come from?

    (2) Had they already composed the Vedas, or part of it? Or did it happen after settling in India.

    (3) What was the kind and volume of interaction they had with the Indus people, if at all.

    Ashish Reply:

    @Bobby,
    thanks for all the lessons in sociology, history, current affairs and mass psychology too.
    Highly entertaining, as always.
    I also learnt that it is not necessary to read (at best read book covers, Kluge prize citations and of course, convenient selective extracts from Wikipedia).. Arun Shourie is a 2nd rate hack and all that..
    And, immutable laws of social sciences theory (all scientific laws are subject to change, it is only social sciences that have only one way of looking at things; Romila Thapar, can’t be questioned)
    My, oh, my…
    @Indian, @SKS: my advice would be to stop wasting your time.

    Bobby Reply:

    Dear Ashish,

    Romila Thapar can be questioned, and is questioned within the academic community. All I said was that this is done within the academic community by proper historians, whose works are reviewed in journals, who then decide whether the criticism is valid or not and many times indeed based on some new material that comes to light, current understanding changes. All I said was that the work of Arun Shourie is not given any significance whatsoever by the historians, who are experts in the field.

    shruti Reply:

    Ashish,
    About your Bosnia-Serb comment, this is what i meant when i said everything should not be viewed through the prism of religion. I read somewhere every country has a monkey on its back- pesky neighbours to contend with. But when a Muslim country is involved, it’s actions are automatically linked to its religion through some convoluted logic.
    This ‘victim mentality’ of Muslims being targetted by the US is what is fuelling their anger and making them seek refuge in extremist ideology. Muslims think the US is targetting them coz of their religion, what they don’t realise is that that country’s foreign policy is uniformly guided by self-interest not religion.
    When you say I do not read, you are exposing your inability to comprehend what you read, which is even more ludicrous. I said that I don’t dig up news on what this religion or that religion could actually stand for. I choose what I read on the merit of how it could help me to add to my knowledge and that includes history. From the links you provided, you seem to read only opinions of others and form your opinion on that basis. That’s so sad.

    That fatwa and its critics were frontpage news. So, visiting the site is quite unnecessary. I don’t suppose the significance of the fatwa hit you, but to me it showed how those muslim heads are waking up to the dangers posed by islamic terrorism.

    SKS,

    Totally beside the point, but since there were no written records of the period when the influx of Aryans started, whatever one thinks is pure conjecture. However, Aryan ‘invasion’ is listed as one of the possible causes of the wiping out of the Indus Valley Civilisation. Romila Thapar thinks…, but do all historians agree?

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Shruti,
    the significance of the said fatwa was in the fact that it did not criticise by name any of the recent atrocities committed by the Islamic terrorists anywhere in the world (including the 26/11) but, went at great lengths to criticize the “state-backed terrorists”.
    So, the Fatwa, contrary to all that you are saying (without reading it) was not an anti-terror fatwa at all.
    All the links I have sent you are to noted Islamic websites/ personalities. None of them are Muslim haters/ bashers. In fact Kaleem Kawaja is a past president of the American Muslims of Indian Origin, a frequent blogger and campaigner for Muslim rights in India.
    But then, how will you ever know that? You do not like to read.
    As a legendary American lawyer once said, “when I have facts on my side, I hammer on the facts; when I have law on my side, I hammer on the law. When I have neither, I hammer on the table”.
    I am deafened by your hammering on the table.

  • http://Shruti SKS Mumbai

    Rt

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  • SKS Mumbai

    Shruti

    Just your Aryan comment. Even Ms Romila Thapar calls it Aryan “Migration” (not invasion) Theory.

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  • SKS Mumbai

    Shruti

    I am impressed once again. I thought that History written by Ms Thapar and her ilk is the Only GENUINE history. Those who don’t subscribe to her type of History are normally labelled “Hindu Nationalist” and not historians.

    AIT is still listed as one the reasons for destruction of IV civilisation because this was the first shot on this history.
    By now, what most historians (incl the NON-Historians or Hindu Nationalists) agree on is that there are no evidence of an Invasion having taken place.

    In any case, your marshalling of the Arayn invasion for whitewashing the invasions by Ghoris and Ghaznis and Baburs is evidence of the necessity of an Aryan Invasion Theory.

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  • shruti

    How strange! Did you notice they mentioned LINGUISTS? I can see only one role for linguists here- tracing the roots of Sanskrit and other Aryan languages. Well, invasion (as in attack) was not the only controversy regarding Aryans. There are also arguments of where they originated- within or outside India. The linguists could be saying there was no migration at all in which case there could be no Aryan Migration theory either. So that would damn both our lines of argument. I have not read the book and I am guessing, neither have you.
    I also keyed in the words you did and poured over what everyone had to say. The Myth of AIT itself had several websites dedicated to it- Names like hindunet.com- you get the drift- which one could hardly expect to be objective and hence gave a miss.
    There were also several other websites not connected to hindu nationalism who held forth this view. In these, the issue was not whether Aryans attacked IV PPL but whether there were actually migrants or natives from the start. Their view was that AIT or AMT (interchangeable here) was ‘created by the British, used by the Germans’.
    There were an equal number of book sites of authors- Indian and Western, propounding AIT.
    So you see, that controversy is alive as ever. If it had been settled decades ago, it won’t be a controversy.
    In fact, plz observe my emphasis on ‘possible reasons’ in earlier posts. I am no expert and will have to rely on what ppl say- there was no invasion, no migration either if we go by some European historians’ view that it was a means of division on linguistic lines.
    I researched it pretty thoroughly to avoid more jibes of the nature who have thought fit to use. And I am not saying one word about how decivise your research was.

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    shruti Reply:

    SKS again,
    That E Bryant you quoted IS talking about AMT and AIT as interchangeable.

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  • SKS Mumbai

    SHRUTI
    It was diffuclt not to respond despite my original intent.

    What are you really talking about? what all Aryan controversies we were talking about?

    You justified Islamic invasion by citing Aryan INVASION and I commented “what most historians (incl the NON-Historians or Hindu Nationalists) agree on is that there are no evidence of an INVASION having taken place.” Yes, the point was “Invasion” only.

    And if your thorough research has told you that Aryan “INVASION” Theory is still alive, that is very good for you.

    Key reason for emergence of ARYAN MIGRATION THEORY is/was the lack of evidence for INVASION (oh, again).

    And btw what was so strange about “LINGUISTS” ?

    For your information ARYAN INVASION was and MIGRATION is “substantially” driven by LINGUISTIC evidence.

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    [Reply]

    shruti Reply:

    You can go figure out what i meant by LINGUISTS yourself… it is not difficult. Well you countered ait with amt by citing Thapar. I don’t remember you making your position clear before.
    You are so predictable, SKS that it is really getting boring now.
    A new history lesson learnt-
    Indian subcontinent was an oasis of peace before the pillaging, ‘political-objectives pursuing’, Muslim marauders landed at our doorstep. There were no invasions and expansionist policies of Hindu kings who invaded other territories were unheard of.
    If the above were false, I don’t see any reason for you to have singled out Muslims and their pollitical objectives throughout the centuries when the rest of the world- Greeks, Romans, Anglo-Saxons fallana fallana had been doing pretty much the same.

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  • Mitra

    I am coming late to this debate between “Hindu Nationalists” and “secular” Indians! I saw some discussion on Malaysia. Just look at this- Wikipedia is pretty respectable in general and you can cross check the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia
    Islam is the official state religion in the Constitution of Malaysia and its the official policy to infuse Islamic values into the administration of the country. Lets just say that we are not trying to build a society like Malaysia here in our country. We are trying to do a little better, though I can’t as yet claim that we have succeeded. To make better progress

    1) More attention should be paid in implementing the Sachar Committee report quickly.

    2) We should make more active efforts to combat prejudice and discrimination against Muslims/Christians and Dalits in India- this will help in creating a culture of tolerance and equality.

    3) The lunatic and violent fringe of the Hindu right, VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal needs to be isolated.

    I am distressed by those who are comparing India and rights of minorities here with Pakistan/Bangladesh/Saudi Arabia or even Malaysia. These countries are not generally thought of as thriving secular democracies! The first three are thought of as basket cases! We shouldn’t try to emulate them. Whats happening in Saudi Arabia should have nothing to do with how we treat Indian Muslim citizens- they are not Saudi Arabians, they are Indians.

    [Reply]

  • Mitra

    One more thing- I am disturbed by some of the comments here expressing religious intolerance and hatred- however, other comments which borders on suggeting that criticism of religion is a crime is also disturbing. Islam or Hinduism consists of a set of values/beliefs/attituides. To the religious believer, the sacred texts of their religion is the word of God.They are entitled to their beliefs- however, they have no right to impose this way of thinking on others. For me, the Bible or the Quran or the Vedas/Geeta are just books written at different points in time by individuals. The ideas contained in these books needs to be critiqued, and such criticism shouldn’t be labelled as hate speech. I should have the right to make an argument that whats written in the Vedas is wrong/**** – if I feel that way.

    [Reply]

    Amy Reply:

    Refer to my realier comment on hate speech.It is not about the criticism of religious scripts but the use of speech to incite hatred for a religious group.

    [Reply]

    Mitra Reply:

    Yes, I understand! The distinction is sometimes thin, so we should be careful. But in this case, it was clearly similar to hate speech- so I agree with you.

    The point is that no book written in 7th Century Arabia or Vedic India or the Middle East 2000 years back can be a guidebook for how to lead your life today, particularly if you insist on taking it literally. 7th century Arabia or the time of Christ wasn’t a very progressive age. Women were thought of as slaves (to a greater or lesser degee), minorities didn’t have equal rights etc. And many verses in the religious books (Hindu/Muslim/Christian) reflect those values. Thats why religious people/traditionalists opposed every single idea that a well educated person today will call progress. When women started going to college, Hindu traditionalists were up in arms saying society will collapse etc. Same when polygamy was outlawed for Hindus. Look at the reaction of religious groups to Delhi HC judgemet on gay rights. ” I don’t like gays- therefore they are criminals”!- only religious people make such arguments.

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    Mitra Reply:

    Forgot to mention- almost all the countries that criminalize homosexuality today – treating gay people as criminals just for being gay are Muslim countries.

  • SKS Mumbai

    I am not sure that this would be acceptable to the censor norms here – but does Intellectual honesty ?count for anything?

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    Oh I am sorry, Mr Zia, I think I have got it wrong. And I sincerely apologise for that mask comment.I hope you will forgive me for that

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    So Mr Zia

    Finally the mask in gone and in any case you are chief of censor borad. Good luck and thanks

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  • Prateek Tyagi

    Mr. Zia this is a fantastic article…… Guys please lets get united and work for our country rather than our religion… Long live India ….Fight against bloody Pakistan and not against Indian muslims … an Indian is an Indian… doesnt matter if he is a muslim or a hindu or a parsi …

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  • Anil

    Muslims were against Gandhiji’s version fo Ram-Rajya too, if nto they would not have voted in mass for Jinnah’s muslim league when ti gave the call fo partition. Mind you an election before that in absence of any call for separare state muslim league lost election miserbaly. The moment Jinnah gave call of separation the support he enjoyed was complete. All but one muslim seat went to Muslim league.. people may nto know but in those days seats in oparlirmanet were designted as muslim or hindu seats depending on who were in the majority in that region. Vote percentage fo Muslim league among those seats were near 85%. So much for how Muslims loved Gandhi’s ram-rajya and hate today’s ram-rajya..

    Same Gandhiji after beig irked over his reconcilation moves being spurned again and again over a riot in Godhra ( read unilateral masscare since in those days Godhara was total muslim and muslims of Godhara can do the adventurism fo burnign train full of people in this day and age then you can imagien their audacity in those times) chimed , “Muslims are bully and hindus are cowards.”

    There could not be bigger pacifist than gandhi and even he failed in his attempt of reconciliation. He went out of hsi way to support Khilafat frankly idnia had nothign to do with Khilafat and the stalwart fo that movement used to chime in India “In his views even the worst of muslim is better than even gandhi simply because he is muslim. ” He was nto wrong because if islamic philosphy is to be believed then Gandhiji as I jot these words down must be burnign in hell. Yes according to holy book if you are not a muslim you are going to hell there is no ifs and buts over this issue. So much for reconciliation.. I don;t know how one reconciles with a people who think you are hell-bound no matter what.. Gandhiji ignored all this.. he even ignored the Mopla massacre. His words at the eve fo Mopla riotswhere around 2 lakh hindus were butchered was” muslims were defednign the religion in the way they know.” By the way fault of Mopla hindus were nothign just because Mustafa kamala Pasha put their Khilafat dreamers itno place they had to to take their frustration otu somewhere. By the way fi anyoen wants to read the reality of Khilafat search for a pakistani canadian wrietr’s book “Chasing Mirage”. It took an Anniet BEsant to highlight the level of crime perpetrated in Mopla..

    Despite all thi over-arching acrobatics when the time came the support of muslim for divion of India was absolute as can be seen through election results..

    So don;t ask the question why muslims are uncomfortable with Ram Rajya of BJP.. Ask why muslims are uncfortable with Ram-Rajya In general.. for that matetr buddha rajya or christian rajya.. Because from Thailand to Russia everywhere a significant muslim minority is busy with separatism. I mean thailand of all places with buddhist majority they find unpalatable for their islamic sensibility what chance others have got.

    Question that needs to be asked why muslims have problems everywhere. Muslims from Pakistan and hidnus from idnia land in britain even there they lag behind who discriminates agaisnt them there.. Instead of acceptign that there is somethign wrong with the muslim psyche intelligentia just keeps lookign for people to point finger at.. they themselves are never wrong..

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  • Fatih from Istanbul

    Dear All,

    I am interested in your culture and history.
    So I tried to follow your discusssion and benefited.Thanks.
    Maybe Turkish experience of Islam may help you enlarge your view.
    For people who have time, In order to understand this someone needs to read especially last 100 years of Ottoman Emperor and the figure “Mustafa Kemal Ataturk”

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  • Abu Ahmed

    Who blasted Makka Masjid in Hyderabad? Who exploded bombs in Ajmer & Malegaon? If the NIA can find answers to these questions, they can also find answers to the questions raised in the above article.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Osama and his supporters in India like you.

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  • Gorg

    I really would like to help this women to help her children to grow up healthy people in the society. this is my phone number 9711939302

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  • vROonn

    aaz b farishtey zindaa hain
    AAMEEN!! AAMEEN!!

    [Reply]

  • kripa Joseph

    yeh samaaj ki gandagi ko saaf kerti hai. verna aadmi itan jyada hawas ka pyaasa ho jaye ki apne ghar ki maa, bahen & aur beti k saath apni hawas mitaye. hum inko “Thanx” bolte hai jo iss samaj ko bachaye rakhti hai. lekin yeh samaaj inko ek gande nazar se dekhta hai. meri appel hai ki inko bhi samaaj m vahee jagah milni chaaheeye jo ek aam nagrik ko milti hai kyuki yeh samaj ko bachak rakhi hai.

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  • Penny Fidler

    you should stay in Juhu my dear… sounds like your culture starts and ends there

    …..

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  • Sandeep

    Bad journalism…cheap aspirations…lack of self awareness , misnformation and disinformation…all included in this article…if Barrista is your criterion for culture…that is sad,,,Many of these backpackers are probably more educated and richer than you….

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  • Guest

    I’d advise Naomi to bath in the Ganges at Benares and dismiss once for all the idea the holy river is polluted. I bathed in it in the late 60’s and caught nothing after years in India….

    Goa? ….Got what it deserved.! Alas. I prefer the local fishing community to any trance party. And now with the Israeli soldiers and the Russian mafias expect the worst.

    A friend.

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  • Paddy

    ignorant, blinkered, biggoted – call yourself a journalist /

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  • parshant

    bil kul thik kahte ho dost

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