And the Muslim vote went to…Hindus



Make-believe worlds are dangerous places. They are built on myths. Myths always eclipse truths out. The just-concluded elections to the Lok Sabha have yet again punctured this great myth called the Muslim vote.

Rather than being credited for their overwhelming participation in the democratic process, the fact that Muslims tend to vote in large numbers is sometimes held against them. This saddens me. (Even responses in this blog have alluded to such an accusation.) And this is what we have been spreading around in our society. That Muslims vote differently, according to the diktats of clerics and gravitate towards only Muslim candidates.

Half truths to the contrary, the way Muslims vote is the greatest evidence that the majority of Muslims will not let religion decide politics. We as Indian Muslims are very much rooted to party-based, secular, democratic traditions of our great country.

Muslims make up 13.4 per cent of the country’s population, and perhaps make up an even smaller percentage on the electoral rolls. In most constituencies, Muslims do not make up for even 15 per cent of the total vote.

Although predominantly a Hindu-majority country, yet India has some 150 million Muslims, making it the state with the second-largest Muslim population in the world next only to Indonesia.

Much of the myths surrounding the Muslim vote have been propagated not by the voter but by Hindu nationalist politicians, who have used anti-Muslim sentiment to win votes.

Such Hindu nationalists draw voters into make-believe worlds that I began this essay with. They make up threats to India’s Hindu heritage and make religion a rallying cry. Their interest is at the core very anti-Muslim, says Ashutosh Varshne (http://sitemaker.umich.edu/varshney/home), an expert on Hindu-Muslim affairs at the University of Michigan. Hindu nationalists argue that Indian Muslims and Christians who converted from Hinduism should reconvert to the majority religion.

More importantly, according to Varshney, “The more Hindu nationalism wanes, the better Hindu-Muslim relations will be.”  His most recent work *Ethnic Conflict and Civic Life: Hindus and Muslims in India* (Yale University Press, 2002 and 2003) won the Gregory Luebbert Prize of the American Political Science Association for the best book in comparative politics in 2002.

The National Election Studies (NES) of the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies or CSDS (http://www.csds.in/) has demonstrated conclusively that Muslim turnouts are not very different from the rest of the electorate. The evidence presented by NES shows that in the last four general elections, the turnout among Muslims was 59 per cent while the all-India figure was 60 per cent. “In fact, the figures in 2004 suggest the turnout among Muslims was much lower than average,” the study states.

One of the conclusions of the study was that when it came to who to vote for, the voting behaviour of Muslims was no less or more strategic than voters of any other faith. This is a very significant finding.

The other significant conclusion of the NES was that evidence suggests that Muslims votes tend to consolidate but it is nowhere sufficient to suggest that *Musalmaans* vote en bloc. Yet Muslims can impact elections, and appear to be using their power as a voting bloc to gain concessions from parties who appeal to them.

However, I would like to take an entirely different stand. Even if Muslims were to use their vote as a strategic tool, what could be so anti-national about it? Is it not enough that they vote and believe in the democratic process? As long as they vote, it should not matter who they vote and how they vote.

There is a strange parallel between Muslims in India and the African-Americans in the US. Muslims are against the BJP largely, like African-Americans are against the Republicans. So, the BJP will do nothing to shed its rightist nationalist skin to court Muslims. Even talking about this would be preposterous. On the other hand, the Congress knows Muslims will vote for them, like the Democrats know they will get traditional Black support anyway. Certain Muslim organisations like the Milli Council and Ulema Council, etc, used this predicament to argue that the tragedy with Muslims is that they are still enslaved voters. This is hardly the truth and a genuine concern. These outfits are driven by their own selfish goals. If Muslims do vote for the Congress, it is not because of a lack of alternative, but because they believe in whatever the party stands for. If there was a genuine lack of alternative, Muslims would have come up with the alternative themselves.

Muslims have either brushed religion-based parties aside or barely voted for them. The All-India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen Party has not been able to push beyond just one seat, Hyderabad. The Assam United Democratic Front managed to get just one seat, Dhubri.

Figures thrown up by any national election can be mind-boggling. But I have discerned one beautiful fact from Election 2009: that Muslims have voted for Hindus. Some might argue that there were hardly any Muslim candidates to vote for in proportion to the Muslim population. In that case, did they abstain? They did not. They will not. For Indian Muslims, Islam has never come in the way of India.

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  • Ejaz

    Excellent viewpoint. Muslim politicians haven’t done as much as Hindu politicians have done for our community. Until honest hardworking broad-based politicans like Omar Abdullah come up, we cannot expand muslim MPs. The problem with MIM and IUML is that there is no difference between them and the BJP because they only appeal to muslims instead of appealing to INDIANS!

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Taliban strategy: Win the hearts of the people, then abuse them

    “The Taliban are quite intelligent. They initially presented a soft image to endear themselves to the population. However, once they take control of an area, you get to see their full cruelty on display.”

    This description is somewhat reminiscent of the founder of Islam, Muhammad — the Taliban’s ultimate role model: Initially (when he was weak and outnumbered) he “presented a soft image,” what with talk of tolerance — “you have your religion, I have mine,” “there is no coercion in religion” — and so forth. When he grew in numbers and strength, however, “full cruelty on display” evinced itself via death, decapitations, slavery, ….

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20095\17\story_17-5-2009_pg7_35

    [Reply]

    Yusuf Reply:

    Excellent viewpoint. Keep it up.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Their report, he said, found disturbing themes in social sciences and history such as ‘Pakistan is for Muslims alone’, ‘the world is collectively scheming against Pakistan and Muslims and Islam’ and ‘Muslims are urged to fight jihad against the infidels”.

    If this is taught in the regular schools of pakistan, imagine what they are teaching young children in Madrassah’s

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-school-texts-spreading-more-extremism+-than-seminaries–bi-14

    How come none of the so-called moderate muslims condemns these or march in protest against this kind of blatant religious aparthied happening right now, right in front of our eyes..

    I guess they are busy whitewashing the history and portraying a blissful/glorified version of their story…while ignoring the current reality of things happening in all islamic countries…

    [Reply]

    Jaya Reply:

    Nazia,

    i read ur article but it does not explain the details of triple talaq.

    Zia,

    one of the biggest misnomer or the misquoted is “triple talaq”.

    One of my muslim frind recently got divorced and i was surprised to know that just those 3 words do not constitute the guy’s freedom. it needs to be done officially , in a court and the guy needs to pay back meher as well as alimony till his ex-wife remarries.

    it was quite a relevation as it is not as simple as it is made out in movies or the general perception.

    I request you to write a separate and detail article, so that people can understand this topic clearly and in totality, once and for all..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Also please write about your thoughts on

    “apostasy (can you take current afghanistan or saudi arabia)”
    “jiziya in pakistan”
    “religious apartheid”
    “right to own/sell/buy a slave as per Koran”
    “can a hindu man marry muslim woman and keep his religion, as per shariah”
    “right for jewish people to visit their ancestral lands in mecca/medinah”
    “is building mosques on christian churches or hindu temples legal or valid ?
    like blue mosque in istanbul (turkey) built on christian church…
    “when there are 60 islamic countries, why india should not be a religious state”
    (for example in malaysia only 60% of population is moslem, but they declared that country as islamic….)

    [Reply]

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Hello Jaya

    Thank You for reading.

    Triple Talak is ndeed a ‘misnomer’ as you pointed out , and the dramatic concept of Islamic divorce proceedings are actually eulogized by Hindi films and perhaps Media.

    There is no such thing as ‘Talaq, Talaq, Talaq’ and the person is free!
    Even the idea seems so ridiculous!

    Islam has given EQUAL rights to Men and Women both in matters of marriage and divorce. Just as marriage is a contract in Islam and can be brought to an end with mutual consent, there are many stages to go through before one can get a divorce. Man and Woman both.

    You can read another article here:

    http://mylogbook-nazia.blogspot.com/2008/11/status-of-women-in-islam_14.html#links

    It never fails to amuse me when there is so much hype about Muslims and Islam. There is too much mystery and fear too I think ,because most people really don’t understand the scriptures that are written in Arabic and the meaning gets “Lost in Translation”

    I hope it clears the air.

    Best

    Nazia

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,

    Looks like there is so much misunderstanding of Islam by all the Mullahs, islamic scholars (including all the islamic countries like saudi,…), so many muslim terrorists (who dont know that islam means peace)….

    so why dont you start educating and telling the real islam to fellow muslims first..
    then worry about other religious people misunderstanding islam.

    there is no mystery in understanding islam.

    Just open any newspaper or watch international news and you will know everyday how muslims are misunderstang islam..

    It is all written in so much blood and innocents lives paid with..
    Where is the mystery you are talking about ?

    So please take away the mystery for them first..

    Haleem Reply:

    Dear Sam
    Let me interrupt U please, I am sorry to say all this require references from Qur’an and Hadith (quotation of the Prophet) and when any one try to Blog on the subject by giving Qur’anic references, organizers just remove the Blog, under such circumstances there is no point discussing religion as it is not possible to come on occlusions.
    Haleem

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    I just asked people to condemn
    Jiziya,
    Apostasy,
    religious apartheid…

    So far there are no takers.

    Still waiting…

    Samar Halarnkar Reply:

    Sam,
    Pardon me for saything this, but you don’t appear to be capable of rational argument — or thought.
    I think you should get some help.
    cheers

  • Bobby

    Nice and informative post.

    Indeed the findings may be significant for people who have been brain washed by misinformation, but otherwise its very much what one would expect.

    Why just Muslims, I am sure even Brahmins and other castes vote along various caste identities. This is a fact in India, not restricted to Muslims alone. In fact I would assume a dalit Muslim would vote more as a dalit than as a Muslim simply because the discrimination he faces as a dalit is much more than being a Muslim.

    This attempt to somehow demonize “muslim behaviour” as something distinct from the way the rest of humanity thinks and works is disturbing but not something new. This sort of misinformation is common to other societies , like the Afro-Americans in the US or perhaps the Jews in Nazi Germany.

    [Reply]

    Sujata Anandan Reply:

    It did go to Hindus, Zia. Even in Mumbai the biggest Muslim icon, Abu Asim Azmi, came fourth in a predominantly Muslim constituency and one should study why all the Samajwadi Party’s Muslim candidates in UP lost .. not one was elected even from Muslim majority areas. So you have to be right

    [Reply]

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Sujata, I want to add something to this: When I said the Muslim vote went to Hindus, I did not mean it to be a negative and disapproving statement. Thankfully people have discerned this after having read the blog. All I wanted to say is that this Muslim vote in my opinion is a myth. And it better for us to choose the ballot than the bullet. Thanks for writing in.

    [Reply]

    arpana Reply:

    “Six myths about indian elections” by Yogendra Yadav
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7973477.stm
    lest folks missed it.

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Thank you Bobby for your support and indulging this blog as an HT initiative on the whole. I wanted to make this a more comprehensive essay with more extrapolation of how Muslims tend to vote. Since I had a full-time preoccupation of covering the elections, like other colleagues, I must say I did a rush job.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Zia is a great person for trying to portray Muslims and islam in the best possible way.
    Of course if some facts get in the way, make statements which are not connected to facts.

    There is no difference between Ostrich and some people’s statements, as they are disconnected from real things…

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    >Trying to convert Muslims to any other faith is a crime in Afghanistan. An Afghan man who converted to Christianity was sentenced to death for apostasy in 2006 but was allowed to leave the country after an uproar in the West.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/taliban+urge+afghans+to+be+vigilant+on+conversion-rs

    [Reply]

  • Atul

    Indians voted for Indians.

    Thankfully, it had little to do with religion

    Indians did not vote for candidates with a dodgy reputation or credibility.

    Going by your ratio, 6 times as many non muslim candidates would have been voted out as compared to Muslim candidates in this election

    Muslims have behaved as all other religous groups have – responsibly

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Muslims would be behaving responsibly if they

    1. condemn jiziya in Pakistan.
    2. condemn Death on leaving islam, law in Afghanistan.
    3. Stop taking Saudi money, until saudi arabia changes it religious apartheid and people have freedom to visit their ancestral lands and people can build church/temples..
    4. reform the “triple Talak” divorce law..
    5. Inform and help indian govt in thwarting terrorist attacks emanating from muslim countries…
    6. stop being a local accomplices for foreign muslim terrorist threats..

    [Reply]

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Hello again Sam

    I will take you up on your question number (4)reform the “triple Talak” divorce law..

    Since this “Triple Talaq” thing is thrown on a Muslim so much I a sending you an article with facts figures and original references to Quran.

    Please read this: http://mylogbook-nazia.blogspot.com/2009/04/does-islam-encourage-polygamy.html#links

    See you in cyberspace soon

    Nazia

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    A true test of your understanding (or your version) is to convince the islamic religious scholars that your version is the right one.

    Then get a fatwa or some other proclamation issued by a well known scholar.
    They are the most learned people and their approval adds to the legitimacy of any interpretation.

    Then others will believe you..

    Please do it soon..

    Sam

    [Reply]

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Hello Sam

    It is not “My version” !

    It is the Qur’anic version. The True Blue book of Islam.

    You are confused due to reading too much of articles based on ‘Little knowledge”

    It appears to me that you are much too angry too and in that state of mind not bale to see and inderstand things comprehensively , especially when someone is trying to make a point.

    The word ‘Fatwa’ is a maligned one. Islam is what The Holy Quran says. A true Muslim follows that
    what this book says, not what some Mullah says!

    Islam is followed by 2 billion people around the world. How can 2 billion people be following a religion that is not based on Truth and Truth alone?

    I said it before and say it again: “A religion that is 1,400 years old has withstood greater foes ….” and it needs no defending, defining, or answering irrelevant questions!

    I think it is time that non muslims stop being so scared of Islam and Muslims . Just because it is a Powerful religion, it does not mean that it is Violent!

    Best ,

    Nazia

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    Looks like there are a lot of ignorant muslims.

    Typically instead of answering direct question, they say the following..

    1. The original meaning or actual meaning is lost in the translation from arabic.
    -> to overcome this, some people took about 6 versions (born arab and still muslim included)

    2. You don’t understand the arabic language

    3. You don’t understand the context

    4. It is only meant for certain conditions
    (but never define what those conditions are)

    5. You are biased

    6. You are islamophobic

    7. You are racist

    8. You can never understand until you read the full Koran, Sunnah,..fatwas from xyz

    9. You cannot equate a culture with islam
    ->for example what saudi’s do as per so many islamic scholars, is due to pre-islam

    10. We were the best in 7th century (as we supposedly gave some more rights then–which is debatable)

    11. Those statements in Koran are representing only contemporary pre-islamic society

    12. If you read all the koran… and if you are still critizing,
    -> you should be a crusader or a zionist agent

    13. How can 1.2 Billion muslims be wrong
    (as if huge ignorant masses proves a fact.
    2 Billion people were following Communist society just 20 years back.
    Raw numbers do not validate, if a statement is true or not)

    14. We are the fastest growing religion
    (there must be truth, since we are fastest)
    Again circular logic.
    Again if west did not provide medicines and food and did not discover oil in, they probably would be much smaller in numbers…
    But never agree that that if each family decides to have 5-10 kids in china/europe they would be fastest growing too..

    15. You cannot equate laws approved by Islamic countries, as true Islam
    (but do not want to debate the sharia scholars who wrote those laws)
    16.
    “A religion that is 1,400 years old has withstood greater foes ….” and it needs no defending, defining, or answering irrelevant questions!
    -> then why are you questioning or saying much older and more populous religions are wrong

    17. You are scared of Islam
    -> what is wrong with being scared of terrorists factory, as muslims have more terrorists per capita than any other religion ?

    18. You are confused

    19. Just submit, do not question..

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    You are free to follow your version or your interpretation of your religion.

    If you truly believe your version is correct and the mollahs version is wrong, or the version in Saudi/Pakistan/Afghanistan is wrong, please challenge them.

    You have to fight with an equally knowledgeable person in Islam and correct them.

    Instead you just want an easy way out, to prove your islamic knowledge by doing some dawah to an polite (but ignorant) non-muslims.

    So far you have not answered any questions about jiziya/apostasy/religious apartheid/sharia

    still waiting for your answers!!!!

    Sam Reply:

    nazia,
    It is certainly “your interpretation” or your version.

    There are so many learned scholars in islamic saudi arabia.

    I am attaching the full link and some relevant portions of divorce process in saudi..

    http://www.switched.com/2009/04/14/saudi-jihadist-divorces-wife-via-text?icid=sphere_wpcom_inline

    According to the Arab News, a Saudi man, who was busy in Iraq participating in “what he described as ‘jihad’,” found the time to send his wife a text message, alerting her that he had divorced her. This is the first documented divorce in Saudi Arabia executed by text message, according to a Reuters report at Yahoo! News.

    Under Islamic Sharia Law, a man need only say “I divorce you” three times to end a relationship.

    http://saudiwoman.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/

    “In Saudi Arabia there are two ways to obtain a divorce depending on who initiates it, the first is easy and can be done by the husband and the second is extremely hard and is reserved for the wife. The first can be done by the husband simply by deciding in his heart to divorce his wife and in effect this becomes valid immediately. Then in his own time he can go to the courts and obtain a document of his decision and send a copy to the ex-wife. Alimony and child custody is not a big deal either and definitely not mandated. Several women I personally know have never gotten any financial support from their ex-husbands. And in the case they are allowed child custody, its only because the father is not interested in caring for the kids. So in essence he is allowing the mother to have them. This and most other issues related to family law is only loosely based on Islam and what really goes on is the absolute vilification of the wife in court while the husband is always taken at his word. I know you might be thinking that I’m exaggerating but seriously I’m not.”

  • SKS Mumbai

    Nazia
    “Islam is followed by … How can 2 billion people be… following a religion that is not based on Truth and Truth alone?”

    Reply:
    1. 2 bill leaves about 4 bill who do not believe in Islam. Is it possible that 4 is bigger than 2 ? Some time, somewhere other than SAUDI where 2+2 is always 4 ( as was proved by a very popular preacher)

    2. For the religions of remaining 4 bill (say ‘XY’ i. e. any. One or many), can your statement be understood as XY (a) may be Truth, or (b) may be false, or (c) it does not concern you?
    Irrespective of whether you chose to reply with your own (d) or to not reply at all, it should not matter to anybody at all.

    Ithink ..non-muslims stop ..scared..of.. Muslims. Just bcoz it is ..Powerful … it ..not mean … Violent!
    Reply: “Power without Violence” sounds like Mahatma Gandhi?

    It never fails to amuse me..so.. about …Islam.There..fear ..too ,because most people really don’t understand the scriptures..
    Reply: I am sure you can’t stop being AMUSED, but for once, can u think, Why are XY’s even trying to understand the Scriptures, unless they are planning to convert or are research academicians? Is it because have too much time and money? Or bcoz they are in a grand conspiracy? Or bcoz they are paranoid?

    Think once. If u still can’t see WHY, then XYs are unlikely to be AMUSED neither now nor ever.

    [Reply]

  • SKS Mumbai

    I forgot another option, Which is XYs are dumb

    [Reply]

  • Haleem

    Dear Sam
    Let me try it again as the Blog got removed by the Organizers
    Creation of Pakistan is just an archetype of British’s:
    It was created because of rivalry between two barristers Mr. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Mr. Jinnah who was also a barrister in British period and was a convert to Islam, who didn’t have deep knowledge of Islamic theology. He never knew that there is no concept of sovereignty in Islam and one can not establish a sovereign Islamic estate in its name.

    No Concept of sovereignty in Islam:
    There is no concept of freedom in Islam as such; hence Islamic State or an Islamic Govt can not be established, as it is being claimed by most Islamic clerics.
    Islamic History is evident; The following Verse is quite clear as for sovereignty is concerned, no Muslim country can take itself as sovereign as entire world belongs to the Almighty God.

    {Holy Qur’an Chapter: – 3; (26)}
    Say: O Allah! Owner of Sovereignty! Thou givest sovereignty unto whom Thou wilt, and Thou withdrawest sovereignty from whom Thou wilt. Thou exaltest whom Thou wilt and Thou abasest whom Thou wilt. In Thy hand is the good. Lo! Thou art Able to do all things.
    As a poet has very rightly said in a couplet.

    Khuda-e-Burter teri zamein per
    Zamien ki khatir yeh jung kya hai

    Oh! Lord the great, on thy own land,
    Why there is war for the sake of thy land itself
    Haleem

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    There are so many scholars who live and breathe islam every minute in saudi arabia… you are telling me they are wrong..

    I have hard time believing your views.

    There are 60 countries which are members of OIC (organization of Izlamic countries).
    Many of them have islam as state religion.

    Even malaysia with only 60% muslims, has islam as state religion.
    If you are telling me they are all wrong, please make a statement in that kind of meeting or forum and convince those members.

    Please argue with other knowledgeable izlamic people in that kind of meetings, or atleast do something to get your view out..

    [Reply]

    Haleem Reply:

    Dear sam As U Ur self agree that a vast Muslim populace of those so called Muslim (not Islamic) states There is a clear difference between Islamic state and Islam as state religion they are rather Muslim states like Malaysia, there may be 60 countries having Islam as their state religion but still they are not Islamic. Most of the Muslims in those countries are just ignorant of Qur’anic teachings specially Afghanistan where 90 percent people are just illiterate, In such a vast world how it is possible to challenge all those clerics, politicians to bring to a round table conference and to make them under stand what exactly Islam is. They are all sailing in two boats at a time i.e. Islamic and democratic, hence they are no where. All those states are not Islamic and they can not be Islamic. Even Saudi Arabia is a Kingdome and not a Caliphate which is prime obligation of Islam religion. Hope U will agree with me, in this regard here is an other True Qur’anic view just for Ur knowledge sake.

    [Reply]

    Haleem Reply:

    Continued.. Islam preaches Freedom of choice and not freedom of a nation or a country: In the site of Allah entire humanity is a clan. Following Verse is quite clear in describing that CHOICE .
    {Holy Qur’an Chapter:-109: (4, 5, and 6)}
    And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
    Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
    There is a clear command in Holy Qur’an.regardin enforcing Islam on others.
    As there is no compulsion in Islam religion:
    (Holy Qur’an Chapter: – 2:256)
    There is no compulsion in religion.
    (Holy Qur’an: 25; 56-57)
    And We have sent thee (O Muhammad) only as a bearer of good tidings and a Warner. Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso will, may choose a way unto his Lord;
    [Verses (35:18), (53:38)].
    ‘No bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden’
    The above are the most important Verses of Holy Qur’an wherein it is clearly declared that Islam is an optional Religion whosoever wishes can join it, at the same time he/she can not impose its concepts/percepts on others by force.
    {Holy Qur’an:- 42; 13)}
    Establish the religion, and be not divided therein.
    It can be challenged to those Islamic clerics, let them show a single Verse describing: Establish Islamic estates, as many as U wish and be divided there in.
    As prophet of Islam (Pbuh) has never practiced that, He never established any Islamic Govt. as such, He instead established religion. Which can be established any where in mixed-up societies in any country having no barrier. The only thing is one who comes into its fold shall obey the Imam. There can be a chain of imamates throughout the word having no barrier no boundaries, under the basic Qur’anic principals under one Caliph.

    Sam Reply:

    Haleem,
    You are not very clear…

    Do you want democratic, secular country where humans can make laws ?

    Or you want islamic (specifically islam, as other religions are not asking for religious countries) where only Ulema/Mollah makes rules..anyone else will be verbally beaten down as not knowledgeable about islam ..

    What exactly you want ?

    if you support religious country, would you also support religious countries based on Christianity, Hindu, Sikh…?

    Again, would you support
    Jiziya ?
    Death on leaving islam ?

    Sam Reply:

    In my previous comment

    “where humans can make laws” —I meant elected representatives making laws which could contradict religious stand…
    Basically they can be “violating” a religions version of law..

  • Pankaj

    i thank british or Jinnah for division of India.. who would have dealt with Taleban meance if india-pak were united ?? Less problems to take care of now in India.

    Zia, if given choice, muslims will vote only for muslims…. no doubt about that.

    why is that only musilms need to explain themselves and thier relgion time and again and no other religion has to do that?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “i thank british or Jinnah for division of India…”
    The people you should thank first and foremost are the Hindu fundamentalists like Savarkar, Golwalkar and company, who were the first, before the Muslim League, to come up with the Theses that “Hindus and Muslims are separate nations”

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    It was Jinnah who was responsible, but if you say it was Savarkar…..i do thank him and his company.

    but alas we still have muslims in india after partition where as in pak we know how they treat hindus and sikhs.

    hindus and sikh population in pak since partition has reduced.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I should thank the founding fathers of this country…Gandhi, Ambedkar, Nehru, Maulana Azad, and many more who did not let India become a hindu version of Pakistan (despite serious continuing effort to that end by the sangh parivar to which u belong) and self destruct as Pakistan is…

    Zia Haq Reply:

    A very interesting observation.

    Sam Reply:

    Did Golwalkar, Savakar and others ask for ?

    What did they propose that would have hurt islam ?

    Imposing some kind of Jiziya on Muslims ?
    Impose apostasy on Hindu’s converting to Islam ?

    Please tell specific thing that would have harmed islam ?

    I myself am not knowledgeable, so explain as many basic things as possible..
    (no offense taken, as i am learner on these)…

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    These are a couple of quotes from what is called the RSS bible:

    “To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic Races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.”

    “The foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e., of the Hindu nation and must loose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment — not even citizen’s rights. There is, at least, should be, no other course for them to adopt. We are an old nation; let us deal, as old nations ought to and do deal, with the foreign races, who have chosen to live in our country”.

    – Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar’s, We or Our Nationhood Defined

    and this is Savarkar on the “Two nation theory”

    “I have no quarrel with Mr Jinnah’s two-nation theory. We, Hindus, are a nation by ourselves and it is a historical fact that Hindus and Muslims are two nations.”

    Sam Reply:

    Please keep writing more…

  • Haleem

    Dear Pankaj
    India is a real democracy whereas Pakistan is a mockery of democracy, U may se my HT post of 23rd of this month

    [Reply]

  • Haleem

    Jaya Says: May 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
    Nazia, I read Ur article but it does not explain the details of triple talaq.
    Mss. Jaya, Mr. Sam – Nazia Mallick
    Let me tell you that there are three type of Talaqs in Islam verses, 1- Talaq-e-Rajai: i.e. ONE time saying TALAQ is simple one, wherein couple can reunite by settling their dispute and live amicably together without Nikah process. 2- Talaq-e-bine: saying TALAQ TWICE in one sitting or in two periods of time, wherein a couple can reunite but Nikah process is necessary, and then they can live amicably. 3- Talaq-e-Mughalliza: saying TRIPPLE TALAQ in one sitting or in different periods of time (this kind of a Talaq though permissible but it is a sort of an abuse of Talaq in the sight of Allah) herein a couple can not re marry again as a punishment, in case they wish to come back, the lady will have to marry another person and the second husband if so desires can give her Talaq-e-bine then only the first husband can come into Nikah process with her. But in this case the chances are bleak.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Haleem,
    What are you views on owning/buying/selling slaves as permitted by Islam…

    I came across these following on the web.

    ===================================================
    Far from ignoring or condemning slavery, Islam condones the horrible institution like no other religion.
    Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Muhammad, who was a slave owner and trader. He captured slaves in battle. He had sex with his slaves. And he instructed his men to do the same. In fact, the Qur’an has more to say about enjoying sex with slaves than it does about several of the so-called “five pillars of Islam.”

    The Qur’an:
    Sura (33:50) – “O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee” This is a special command that Muhammad handed down to himself, allowing himself virtually unlimited sex. Others are limited to four wives, but may also have sex with an unlimited number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:
    Sura (23:5-6) – “..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess…” This verse allows the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Sura (70:29-30).
    Sura (4:24) – “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” Even sex with married slaves is permissible.
    Sura (24:32) – “And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves…” Breeding slaves based on fitness.
    Sura (2:178) – “O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.” The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman’s worth is also distinguished from that of a man’s).

    From the Hadith:
    Bukhari (80:753) – “The Prophet said, ‘The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.’”
    Bukhari (52:255) – The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.
    Bukhari (41.598) – Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but rather used to pay off the debt.
    Bukhari (62:137) – An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad’s men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad’s approval.
    Bukhari (34:432) – Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad’s approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.
    Bukhari (47.765) – A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).
    Bukhari (34:351) – Muhammad sells a slave for money. He was thus a slave trader.

    Bukhari (72:734) – Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of African descent.

    Muslim 3901 – Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.
    Muslim 4112 – A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.
    Bukhari (47:743) – Muhammad’s own pulpit – from which he preached Islam – was built with slave labor on his command.
    Bukhari (59:637) – “The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, ‘Don’t you see this (i.e. Ali)?’ When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, ‘O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.’” Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really “wives,” since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.
    Abu Dawud (2150) – “The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) ‘And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.’” This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur’an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands.

    Ibn Ishaq (734) – A slave girl is given a “violent beating” by Ali in the presence of Muhammad, who does nothing about it.
    ==================================

    [Reply]

    Haleem Reply:

    Dear SAM the original subject of the Blog Posted by Zia Haq on Sunday, May 17 was about Muslim vote went to Hindus since than U have changed the subject seven times as per serial order as under,
    1- And the Muslim vote went to Hindus
    2- Taliban strategy: Win the hearts of the people, then abuse them
    3- Trying to convert Muslims to any other faith is a crime in Afghanistan.
    4- Their report, he said, found disturbing themes in social sciences and history such as ‘Pakistan is for Muslims alone’
    5- I am attaching the full link and some relevant portions of divorce process in Saudi.
    6- Apostasy (can you take current Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia) “Jiziya in Pakistan”
    7- What are you views on owning/buying/selling slaves as permitted by Islam?
    I am sorry to say, I couldn’t follow what exactly Ur aim is.
    So I would request U to please concentrate first on any one subject till it is accomplished. Than we can discuss other sub. I swear Insha’allah U will get an appropriate and a rational reply just according to Qur’anic preaching.
    As far Ur query about slavery is concerned. Here is a last version of the scripture towards ending slavery in Islam. And after the advent of Islam this practice is completely abolished.
    24:33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).
    (Explicandum) The law of slavery in the legal sense of the term is now obsolete. While it had any meaning, Islam made the slave’s lot as easy as possible. A slave, male or female, could ask for conditional manumission by a written deed fixing the amount required for manumission and allowing the slave meanwhile to earn money by lawful means. Such a deed was not to be refused if the request was genuine and the slave had character. Not only that, but the master is directed to help with money out of his own resources in order to enable the slave to earn his or her own liberty.

    [Reply]

    Haleem Reply:

    All those quotations are just absurd. still I will answer one just for example:
    Bukhari (80:753) – “The Prophet said, ‘The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.’”
    When a slave is already freed how can he/she belong any more to those who have already freed him/her?
    Such quotations can never be cited by Holy Prophet. It is sheer blasphemy.

    Sam Reply:

    Mohd did own slaves..
    Slavery was not abolished in Saudi arabia legally until 1963.

    So you are statements are either total ignorance or so far from the truth..

    Sam Reply:

    Haleem,
    Islam is nothing but arab imperialism to conquer non-arab lands under the garb of a religion.

    Islamic thugs, used this religion to the full extent to capture and enslave other people’s lands, property, woman…and continue to do so..

    Your denials are far removed from truth..

    Sam Reply:

    In 2003 a high-level Saudi jurist, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, issued a fatwa claiming “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”[115] He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining, “They are ignorant, not scholars … They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel.” At the time of the fatwa, al-Fawzaan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country.

    According to multiple sources, religious calls have also been made to capture and enslave Jewish women. As American journalist John J. Miller said, “It is hard to imagine a serious person calling for America to enslave its enemies. Yet a prominent Saudi cleric, Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik, recently urged Palestinians to do exactly that with Jews: ‘Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don’t you enslave their women?’” [116]

    Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri of Karbala expressed the view in 1993 that the enforcement of servitude can occur but is restricted to war captives and those born of slaves.[117]

    Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, the general supervisor and director of homiletics and guidance at the Azhar University, has said on the subject of justifications for Islamic permission of slavery:[118]

    “Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other – it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner.”

    Haleem Reply:

    For the information of Mr SAM please see the following Web site.
    http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1362
    There is difference in declaration of some thing as a principal and doing it practically. Some nations practice slavery openly but they don’t declare it, some declare it as a matter of principal, this kind of a phenomenon though permissible in Islam under certain conditions but practically it is abolished.

    Sam Reply:

    British abolished slavery in Saudi. Slaves were openly sold in Mecca/Medina until 1920/30’s.

    There was never a movement within islam to abolish slavery.
    Even now, if the rest of world keeps a closed eye, they could bring it back in Saudi arabia.

    What is stopping Islam, even now to say slavery is bad.

    Can you do it now ?

    The worst thing is even educated people support it blindlly based on some verses (or Satanic Verses as Salman Rushdie says)..

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Haleem

    Thank You for your comment on my blog.

    I have posted a new blog which explains ‘Triple Talak’ very clearly and it is explained by a noted Theologian Mr Hasan Mahmud who is also an accomplished
    Playwright based in Canada.

    In order to understand the T Talak concept one will have to watch this docu-film ‘Hilla’ by Hasan Mahmood patiently ..

    Here is the link for all those who are interested in knowing about this infamous law:

    http://mylogbook-nazia.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-is-truth-of-triple-talak-in-islam.html#links

    Please watch the Film!!

    regards

    Nazia

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Hi Nazi Mallick,

    I have to take the supremely educated islamic clergy, who sets the rules in Saudi.
    There is not a single law which is anti-islamic in Sadi,
    Every law is fully approved by the Islamic professors and chiefs of many Mosques.

    Everything other interpretation (in other countries) is considered fringe and not true islam as per them.
    So as per you, the most misunderstanders and most islamophobic people are the Saudi clergy (as you claim triple talak is anti-islam).
    Are you saying that those clergy is not sufficiently aware of islam and you are more knowledgeable than them ?

    I am attaching the full link and some relevant portions of divorce process in saudi..

    http://www.switched.com/2009/04/14/saudi-jihadist-divorces-wife-via-text?icid=sphere_wpcom_inline

    http://saudiwoman.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/

    “In Saudi Arabia there are two ways to obtain a divorce depending on who initiates it, the first is easy and can be done by the husband and the second is extremely hard and is reserved for the wife. The first can be done by the husband simply by deciding in his heart to divorce his wife and in effect this becomes valid immediately. Then in his own time he can go to the courts and obtain a document of his decision and send a copy to the ex-wife.

    [Reply]

  • http://hubpages.com/hub/California-Family-Law alex smith

    I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added it to my News Reader. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.sextoysdildosvibrators.org/ vibrators

    great stuff !!! please write more interesting tales

    [Reply]

  • abhinav

    This is very old blog and probably nobody is going to read this comment.
    My problem is not with muslims voting in block or voting for particular party. My problem is that the issues on which they vote. For example personal law and shahbano case. What was there to gain for muslims but congress changed the law to get vote. Similarly banning the books etc. are other issues for which you can get muslims vote. This mentality needs to change. they will not vote for a candidate if he is bringing development to the area. They will vote if for a corrupt person if he says that he will make urdu as one of the official language. This is the main problem against muslim mass voting.

    You can see so called saviour of muslims Digvijay Singh, Mulayam Singh etc. who do not have any agenda for development apart from fear mongering for muslims.

    [Reply]

    Anita Reply:

    More myth making. The primary concern for Muslims, just like all Indians is Security followed by development. Why would muslims support a party like BJP which keeps harping on mulims as anti-nationalists and supports progroms against it like the 2002 riots. Just think about it?

    What is needed is a mentality change in people like you to realise that the real problem is communal mentality of people like you. That is what gives rise to people like Mulayam Singh and Digvijay Singh

    [Reply]

  • anand mohan das

    Minority would not have voted for BJP anyway, with or without so-called “misdemeanor” of Varun. To this point, your otherwise fine essay sound like biased indian media.

    Election reform, that would include mandatory voting would go a long way in breaking this “en-block minority voting”. Untill then, BJP should stick to what it is doing at present. An all out assault on congress, and may be a more balanced media would change some hearts in India as well.

    Bottom line is – Like it or not, Modi is going to be defecto charismatic leader that India will eventually have as its PM. Against all odds, he has enough personality and glamour to seriously challange italian-gandhi family pop-image.

    Jaitely is very good, but he does not match this “X” factor that Modi has. A certain section of media, and mostly muslims are always going to whine and cry, no matter what. But then, experiments of Gujarat will be played out on national level, as we inch closer into the future.

    It is good thing for India, certainly a good thing for nationalism in this country !

    Twitter @amdas108

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    As you have correctly said, Modi has, if not brought the minorities rushing into the BJP camp, at least sown the seeds of doubt in their collective mind and soul. In the coming years, it would be logical to assume that he would do a lot to rid the minority psyche of the Hindu fear and abhorrence. And then his march to Delhi would be free of pot holes.

    [Reply]

  • mohnish Patel

    I totally agree wth ur views, allies can be a prblm..Shiv sena,,wl go BJP’s way…yes JD(U)..wl mke sme ruckus..bt..no one wnts to leave th side of a wnning team..its jst tht Nitish kumar, dosnt wnt to gve Lalu any chance fr whch he is waiting to grab..An inside pact mst hve been made..tht thy wl criticize Modi..jst to appeal minorities..bt by th end of day, whn required ground is coverd thy wl go fr a kill..

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mohd-Anas-Khan/100002797725356 Mohd Anas Khan

    Now Modi’s future is same as Advani. waiting for PM seat whole life

    [Reply]

  • Ahmed

    FYI, Saudi Arabia was never under British rule. And slavery was systematically abolised under the Prophet himself were he declared it illegal to make a free person a slave but also mandated food and shelter to be on par of free people for them. By the 1800s, a decree by the Ottoman empire had already declared slavery as abolished. Don’t lie so blatantaly

    [Reply]

  • Human Above All

    Sam, you’re cantankerous.
    Better stop posting fundamentalist shit or you’d be knocked down soon.

    [Reply]

  • Human Above All

    Sam, you’re cantankerous.
    Better stop posting fundamentalist shit or you’d be knocked down soon.

    [Reply]

  • moyeen

    If your assumption on Islam are negative, we can’t help it. One must ask querries to get benefitted. You don’t like Islam and its views. That is Okay. It’s your freedom of Choice.

    [Reply]

  • moyeen

    How much do you like 50 shades of grey

    [Reply]

  • qwe123kids

    ///***
    Muslims will not let religion decide politics. We as Indian Muslims are very much rooted to party-based, secular, democratic traditions of our great country.
    */

    I Know This Blog is Old but The above Muslim cannot be and won’t Be secualr ..

    Better Use Ticket for Samjuta express and Go to pakistan

    Look At the History..

    Some Book Which Help you Understand Real Islam Why It is Terroist and Hyprocite religion

    1) Understanding Islam Through Hadis: Religious faith or Fanaticism? by Sri Ram Swarup

    2) The Calcutta Quran Petition (Sita Ram Goel )
    3) Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders
    4) Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them Vol. 1 ,2
    5) Muslim Separatism: Causes and Consequences by Sita Ram Goel
    6) The Story of Islamic Imperialism in India
    7) TIPU SULTAN – Villain Or Hero

    8 ) Jihad : The Islamic Doctrine of Permanent War by Suhas Majumdar
    9) Jizyah and the spread of Islam by Harsh Narain

    10) The Legacy of Muslim Rule in India Ks Lal
    11) Muslim Slave System in Medieval India Ks lal
    12) Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India

    13) Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947
    14) Nationalism And Distortions In Indian History by Dr. N.S. Rajaram

    15) Negationaism in India – Concealing the Record of Islam by Koenraad Elst

    The above books are availbale on Voice of Dharama website in book section for free

    Robert spencer , 16) The Mhummad ,
    17) The Complete Quide to Koran for Infidel
    18) The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades

    un can donwload Audiobook from any soure fro freedomwlod

    19) Jhiad M.A. Khan

    20) The Syro-Aramaic Reading Of The Koran Christoph Luxenberg (Many version of koran )

    21) The Tragic Story of Partition H.S Saredeasi.

    22) Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947 by S. Gurbachan Singh Talib

    23) The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book : IBN warrq

    24) savkar Samgra :- Volume 1 – 10

    25) Dr K. Ajram’s Setting the Record Straight: The Miracle of Islamic Science

    26) Why_I_Killed_Gandhi_Nathuram_Godse_s_Last_Speech_in_Court_medium :- Naturam Godse

    I Think 36 books are more then enough…

    [Reply]