Pope mends Muslim fence. What are we doing?



Pope Benedict XVI is touring the Holy Land and on Saturday dropped in at Amman’s Al-Hussein mosque, Jordan’s largest.

The Pope hit the nail on its head: it is not religion, he said, but the manipulation of religion for political ends that is instigating rifts between communities.

I told you so.This is soon going to be a truth universally acknowledged: that exploitation of religion has resulted in terror and will result in differences and conflicts.

In 2001, Pope John Paul won Muslim hearts around the world when he prayed at the Umayyed Mosque in Damascus during a televised stop.

In a symbolic gesture, Pope Benedict XVI, when he spoke on Saturday, described God with the well-known Muslim epithets of “merciful and compassionate”, adding both creeds should unite.

When religious leaders talk sense, the world sits up and takes notice. The Pope said: “The contradiction of tensions and divisions between the followers of different religious traditions, sadly, cannot be denied.

However, is it not also the case that often it is the ideological manipulation of religion, sometimes for political ends, that is the real catalyst for tension and division, and at times even violence in society?”

Pope Benedict XVI has been met with less enthusiasm, compared to the rock-star reception accorded to his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who had made a similar, unprecedented tour in 2000.

The reason for the relatively mundane reception this time is being attributed to the pontiff’s 2006 lecture in which he quoted a medieval Christian emperor who criticised some teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as “evil and inhuman”.

In that lecture delivered before an academic audience in Germany’s Regensburg, Pope Benedict XVI had cited the words of the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

The Vatican has since clarified that this was not the Pope’s “personal opinion”.

Now, this trip to the Holy Land is being seen as a serious attempt to mend Christianity’s relations with the Muslim world.

The Pope’s remarks at the mosque clearly suggest that the Pope thinks Islamic radicalisation is the real reason for differences between Christians and Muslims more than any real flaw.

When radicalisation happens from either side, as in India, the results can be disturbing. It is time for Hindus and Muslims to launch a similar mutual outreach and this is possible.

Bridges must be built. Attitudes must be changed. Courses need to be corrected. Mistakes need to be condoned; some condemned. The art of living together needs to be learnt. Non-interference in each other’s religious affairs must be practised. And the delay in achieving all this must be avoided.

During several anti-terror meets organised by the Muslim organisation Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind and Islamic seminary Darul Uloom, two of which I had covered for the Hindustan Times, Hindu and Muslim clerics shared daises. These were pleasing sights but they lacked any powerful symbolic gesture. This is probably because these are never televised nationally like a papal visit. Neither are they attached unprecedented importance, though Darul Uloom’s fatwa to denounce terror, which was first reported by the HT, made headlines around the world.

Now is the time to make swift moves against radicalisation — of both Hindus and Muslims. But it is equally important not to miss the woods for the trees.

So who is a radical and what does he do?

“Fundamentalist” is not an antonym for “moderate”. The word is radical. Devout (Muslim or Hindu) is not the opposite of rational. The word is fanatic. We have often mixed these notions up.

Who is a fundamentalist? A fundamentalist is one who believes in the *fundamentals of his religion*. A Muslim fundamentalist then is one who believes in the essentials of his religion; while a Hindu believes in his. In this sense, I am a Muslim fundamentalist. What can be wrong with this?

Who is a radical? A radical is an extremist or uncompromising person. Sometimes, radical means something having to do with basics and, in this sense, even the dictionary tends to use this to mean something negative: for example, a radical flaw or error in the system.

Radicalisation would then mean *to make something more radical*. Sometimes, radical means thorough or complete: radical reforms or liberalisation. Religious men are seldom radical. In most cases, it is not the humble priest but the hair-splitting politician who is radical.

Who is a fanatic? Somebody who is too enthusiastic about what he does: a fanatic stamp collector, for example. However religious fanatics are passionate in the derogatory sense and fanaticism borders on hatred of that which is outside its domain. Fanatics are easily roused, often have hare-brained designs and are hot-blooded.

A fundamentalist will inspire his co-religionists; a radical will incite. A fundamentalist will be careful, a radical callous. A fundamentalist is so because of his faith; a radical because of his own personality.

We need to make a distinction between a fundamentalist and a radical because if we mix up the two, we will not know the chaff from the grain.

A fundamentalist will ideally be a God-fearing man, who will be devout, spiritual and pious. A radical will be a spitfire, who will be out to find faults with other religions and will see threats where there is none. He is inherently abhorrent of diversity. All religions have both specimens who need to be treated with contempt.

Religious leaders have great moral responsibilities. Unlike elected politicians, they cannot be changed. If they do not do the needful, they run the risk of harming their own religion they are meant to defend.

Israel and the Vatican, for example, have clashed in recent months over the papal decision to rescind the excommunication of a Holocaust-denying bishop Richard Williamson of Britain, and over moves to beatify Pope Pius XII.

The war-time Pope Pius XII is reviled by Israelis, who see him as not having done enough to protect the Jews of Europe from the Holocaust. Pius is hated for what Israel perceives as his passive stance during the Holocaust.

Perhaps, the Holocaust could have been blunted a bit had Pius come out strongly against it.  In my opinion, we in India face a comparable situation: our religious leaders, Hindus and Muslims alike, are looking on impassively while the radicals hold the fort.

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  • Kalyan Basu

    I personally do not like that we discuss the issue of religious diversity in terms of fundamentalism and radicalism. The issue is much deeper than that.

    Almost all religions of the world convey the same message, because their prophets were God realized souls. They saw the same truth from different directions. There is nothing wrong in their messages.

    There is another part of religious tradition. Each religion prescribes a set of rules how a person will practice religion. The reason of religions conflict comes from the differences on the second part.

    Most of the religious books, based on the historical set up the prophet’s time, prescribe its own set of rules on dos and don’ts in their books. For common people this set is the religion. If there is any difference in this with respect to another religion, the other religion is viewed as against their religion. That person then is an enemy to their religion.

    As long as the culture was localized, the chances of conflict were less. As the time passes and the civilization changes due to influence of human knowledge and wisdom, world start moving towards a homogeneous culture. This changes caused a major fault line between the cultures in religious attitude.

    Opportunists start taking advantage of this fault line like any normal process. This creates radical religious groups and it is true for all religions of the world.

    The religious acceptance becomes more important than religious tolerance in this context. Current difficulties are the reflecting the state of the different societies in handling this critical issues.

    Some societies handled this education in time through reformation and modernization, others failed to make similar progress. Societies where the intellectual class failed to bring this issues on the table for the cultural awakening, the culture did not reform. Why that happened is the question? The answer of this will have to come out these societies only.

    The inter-faith dialogue can play very important role in this context. The common people must understand and fight for ‘acceptance’ of other religions, only tolerance to other religion is not sufficient. Putting the blame on radicalisms is a coup out.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    You are talking about interfaith dialogue.
    Can they have such a dialogue in Mecca or Medinah or any other part of Saudi arabia.

    In saudi arabia, one cannot even take bible, or any hindu text or pictures …

    This is the sacred place for muslims and their silence is deafening.

    They ask for interfaith dialogue and all such benefits given by other cilizations like secular, hindu and christian…

    But they never reciprocrate in any islamic countries..
    (if some muslim countries do, it is due to the influence of pre-islamic civilizations ethos and because they are not “sufficiently” islam enough).

    They behave like parasites, just sucking and sucking, without giving anything in return, even an inch in their holy lands.

    Not a single voice of protest from “enlightened muslims”, and these are the same people asking for all benefits in other countries..

    [Reply]

    SKS Mumbai Reply:

    The argument, that all religions convey the same message and religious conflicts arise due to the differences in the set of rules the adherents are required to follow, which as a matter of fact are specific to the time and place where that religion started, is largely incorrect:

    For one, a large part of it is incorrect, we will see how. It falls into the great “simplification trap”, a device used to avoid intractability of complete reasoning. Of course simplification does have its benefits on occasions but the risks, of simplifying everything, are simply too large to not attempt at correct reasoning however intractable it might be. Moreover, the “SUBJECT” we are talking about here, in its conception has ruled itself to be independent of imperfections caused by EARTHLY VARIABLES like TIME and PLACE etc.

    ABOUT SAME MESSAGE:
    1. “One of the “BASIC PRINCIPLES’ of BELIEF in ISLAM, something which is obviously a basic principle and on which all the Muslims are agreed (ijmaa’) is that there is “NO TRUE RELIGION” on the face of the earth apart from Islam. It is the “Final Religion” which “ABROGATES all RELIGIONS and LAWS” that came before it

    2. One of the “BASIC PRINCIPLES’ of BELIEF in ISLAM is that the ‘Book of Allaah”, the Holy Qur’aan, is the last of the Books to be revealed from the Lord of the Worlds. It “ABROGATES all the Books” that came before it. So there is no longer any revealed Book according to which Allaah may be worshipped apart from the Qur’aan.

    3. It is “OBLIGATORY” to believe that the Tawraat and Injeel have been “ABROGATED” by the Qur’aan, and that they have been altered and distorted, with things added and taken away. Hence, WHATEVER in the PREVIOUS BOOKS was CORRECT is ABROGATED by ISLAM, and EVERYTHING ELSE is DISTORTED and CHANGED…………..

    4. One of the FUNDAMENTALS of ISLAAM is that any JEW or CHRISTIAN who does not embrace ISLAAM should be considered and designated as an unbeliever (Kaafir) as well as an “ENEMY OF ALLAAH, OF HIS MESSENGERS AND THE BELIEVERS (MUMINOON)………………………

    Source: Fatwa Against the Call for the Unification of the Religions, Fatwa from the Lajnah, The Presidency of Islaamic Research and Ifta Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Under The General Supervision of the Grand Council of Scholars (Fatwa No: 19402, Dated 25th Muharram 1418H) See http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/aqeedah/0002.htm,

    Therefore, for Islam to exist, other religions, the Christianity and Judaism have to be ABROGATED, so much for the same message. The claim of Islam’s inherent tolerance based on its recognition of PROPHETS of OTHER RELIGIONS, is only a clever argument, as inherent in to this recognition is the negation of Christian and Judaic religious scriptures. Nevertheless, one cannot have issues with these BASIC PRINCIPLES of BELIEF, it is their belief and they are free to hold them. The problem anyway does not start here.

    ABOUT SIMPLIFICATION:
    I am not aware what are the rules prescribed by Hindu scriptures. If you are aware, do let me know as also the underlying source. Of course, I do celebrate Diwali, Holi and various other festivals, I also go to temples may be 2-3 times in a year. The point being that the rules, if they exist, mean nothing to me or to a significant number of Hindus. Although I am told that, there are prescriptions for inhuman treatment of shudras and untouchables etc. Nevertheless as of today, untouchability is a crime under Indian constitution, Ms Mayawati is ruling the largest state and has as much chance of ruling the country as that of Mr Advani and Mr Singh. The point is that the law of the land OVERRULED the HINDU SCRIPTURES. The highly reviled RSS and VHP have not only spoken against but also taken a number of steps against these practices.

    However, most important difference lies in the SCOPE OF RELIGION. About Islam, majority will tell you that Qur’aan covers all aspects of life, i.e. the politics, economics, Trade and commerce, social interactions, what you wear, how you wash your hands, how you comb your hair, how you apply oil on your hair, etc…I don’t know, it might be same for Hinduism or Christianity also, but you wont find many Hindus or Christians insisting that the laws of the country must comply with their religious scriptures. In case of Hinduism, there are arguments that it is not a religion (as the modern western constrict defines it), in the sense Islam and Christianity are. Bottom-line Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are DIFFERENT “THINGS” as all of them address or deal with different areas of life.

    At this point I am not arguing whether X is better or Y, all I am saying is that the simplification that they are “ALL THE SAME” is incorrect.

    TIME AND PLACE
    Another major premise of Islam is that it holds TRUE for EVERY ONE at ALL TIMES.

    Of course there is this concept of ijtihad (reasoning) and “I have been told by some of the postings here that ijtihad is the reinterpreting of Religious sources (Qur’aan and Hadees ) again and again, so that they are more relevant with the current times”. However, I have read different views one that doors to ijtihad were closed some 1000 years ago, second I am not sure if Qur’aan also comes under its scope. May be some one can enlighten us.

    [Reply]

    K Reply:

    Dude, try to get the point across in a few sentences.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Who is an “innocent” ?

    Can a Hindu be innocent ?

    As per this video and many other islamic scholars, Hindus cannot be innocent and could be killed for rejecting Muslim God Allah.

    Darul’s fatwa is a finely worded statement without defining who is a terrorist and who is an innocent..

    I beleive such wordings are nothing but part of Islamic Taqiyya to fool Hindus, so islam can be advanced.

    [Reply]

  • Sam

    Video mentioned in my previous comment.

    Killing of any non-muslims is legitamate as part of Islamic Jihad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

    [Reply]

    Sujata Anandan Reply:

    Great blog, Zia. We do need to stop politicising religion on both sides. Its only politics because the first riot in India was not between Hindus and Muslims but between Parsis and Muslims in Bombay in the 1860s, the problems got sorted out and they have not been fighting since then essentially because there were no politicians then to add fuel to that particular fire. Yet Hindu-Muslim fights go on and on and on…

    [Reply]

    VARUN SAXENA Reply:

    SAM,
    Why should an Indian Muslim answer what Saudi Government will or wont allow?

    Why should he clarify what another Muslim says?

    Do you come and clarify if some Hindu speaks ill of Muslims. There are lot of Goonda Oraganisations like VHP,Bajrang Dal who do that everyday.

    But you dont see that because you do not want to. Wasnt Gujarat Riots not an act of terrorism?
    If they are justifed as an act of revenge then the bomb blasts can be justified as well. There is always a reason behind madness.

    Islamic Terrorism is a big problem yes. But do not raise another problem by supporting if not terrorists altleast killers from your own religion.
    By supporting such barbarism you are not wekening the former in any way. You are just fuelling even more hatred amongst those who might have been with you.

    Frankly the more I see of it the more I am made to believe religion just divides people rather than play any constructive role in society.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    They can answer..

    As Muslims in general and Indian muslims consider Saudi arabia as the most sacred place and a glorified place. They visit Mecca/Medina and aspire to convert everyone and every country to look like Saudi arabia..

    They also receive a lot of money from Saudi govt for building mosques and other things.

    For example, when South africa had racial apartheid the whole world condemned it and stopped doing trade.

    When Saudi arabia is following religious apartheid, the whole world keeps quiet.

    Why ?

    Shouldnt they even condemn some of their actions on moral grounds ?
    If they keep total silence, what keeps their mouth shut ?

    Taranjeet Reply:

    are you ready to talk about atrocities on Sikhs in our own country?and you are talking about Muslims HAA!

    Sam Reply:

    >Why should an Indian Muslim answer what Saudi Government will or wont allow?

    If I agree to this, then I can ask why should Indian muslim protest against US Govt or Israeli govt policies ?

    If they do, why not protest human right violations in Saudi ?

    Why be selective and protest only Christian/Jewish/Secular Countries, but leave out Muslim countries ?

    Zia Haq Reply:

    Thank you.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    http://www.islam-watch.org

    M A Khan’s interview
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34233

    Sam Reply:

    Can you write about your thoughts of Jiziya imposed on Sikhs in Pakistan ?
    If they did not convert to islam or pay taxes they could be killed as per Shariah…

    This is a life and death issue for many people, and not a single author or single muslim comes out and condemns this.

    I think they are bunch of cowards, as it is legally approved in islam and they are afraid that if they condemn it, they are going against islam.

    Chose Human rights or inhumane values.

    We need to expose so-called moderate muslims who are nothing but a softer version of Taliban.

    KK Reply:

    Respecting your voice, it’s impossible to avoid politcising religion for two reasons.

    (1) Politics is part of religion in some of the popular religion, such as in Islam Sharia Law is part of political process, law of the land (which is political process) is based on religion, even in a country like India it has to be respected (we do not habe one law for all citizen).

    (2) In democratic country demograph plays an important role for getting support (vote). Religion is one item which judge demographic pattern. In most of the countries it is manipulated be it Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Germany or France. In India BJP made a smart move in 1980s to woo Hindu, the majority, which scared all other national parties (fortunately Hindus are further divided as caste and parties are further divided based on caste, making minority and other national parties bit safe) but this also has made safe heaven for Congress, Left parties and SP to use minority Muslim as vote banks in the name of secular politics.

    Above all, it will also not be absolutely correct that Godhra, Kandhamal, Mumbai terrorist attack had only political origin. Politicians do exploit the situation but the origin is somewhere else. In India, many people are aware about the facts but often they do not give rational judgement due to many other reasons.

    During partition, Gandhi made a serious blunder to the nation by not making rational judgement rather making emotional appeal. Unfortunately Nehru (who became first PM of India largely due to Gandhi) obeyed and followed Gandhi without solving this problem permanently. If Sardar Patel would have taken the judgement things would have been different and India would have save at least few decades. It has already taken 60 years and who knows how much more time it will take for India to solve this problem.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Sujata—If i agree to you “that without politicians everything will be great” –
    there were no politicians like today in 7 century or 8th century or 11-12 century..

    Why did arab/turksih islamic zealots attack India.
    Read historical records left by muslim zealots who attacked.

    read Chachnama, babar’s records…
    you will see how much blood thirsty thugs they were and how many millions of Hindus they killed without any provocation.
    Hindus did not cause any problem to them, but they still attacked and killed and took hundreds of thousands of woman’s as slaves and sold in Baghdad and so many central asian cities.

    Just read the records they left, if you think Hindu sources are biased.
    You will know the real islam and the repeated terrorists attacks happening in the last 1400 years

    [Reply]

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Sam,

    You seem to be stuck on reading every anti Islamic site that does nothing but spew venom against this particular faith, and are reading too many , contrived, warped and out of context texts to feed your scarce knowledge about Islam. Please read the author Zia Haq ’s article carefully , without bias and try to read between lines and “understand” what he is trying to ‘do’ and ‘say’! He is trying to dispel the myths and create harmony amongst those who are ignorant about the true tenets of Islam.
    Islam literally means “Surrender to the will of Allah” and no God teaches violence.

    As for “ Why did arab/turksih islamic zealots attack India.Read historical records left by muslim zealots who attacked. read Chachnama, babar’s records…you will see how much blood thirsty thugs they were and how many millions of Hindus they killed without any provocation.” Well buddy, history says that India was attacked by any invaders. Not just “Muslim zealots” Do you know about the British Rule? Do you know how Indians were mauled, tortured, made to slave in their own country during British the regime? There is a ayat in Quran that says : “Lakum dinakum walaedain” meaning “You follow your faith I follow mine.” Islam is all about Tolerance and Peace. Have you read Quran ? If not then please do. Understand it; know it; and then speak/write about Islam.

    Best wishes for now

    Nazia

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia.
    Welcome and please let me know your thoughts.
    1. Jiziya imposed on Sikhs/Hindus in Pakistan

    Would you condemn it ?

    2. Can Muslims mend fences and welcome Jewish people to Mecca/Medina, as they lived for hundred of years before Mohd showted up ?

    3. What are your views on “death upon leaving islam” rules in many countries.

    4. Other people who came to india, came for simply making a living or for looting.
    But islamic thugs, came in the belief of their religious right to make Hindus as Dhimmis.

    As per your statement, since Britishers left the country, will islamic origin people also leave now ?

    5. What are your views on religious apartheid in Saudi arabia ?
    Would you support building churches/synagogues/temples in that country ?

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Hey Sam

    Islam has suffered a lot due to “bad press” and one stark example is people like you, who actually ‘buy’ such news!!

    I can’ blame you for all these ‘senseless’ questions that you have put forth to me, because Muslim history has been under scanner since a very long time, and as the world’s fasted growing religion, it has raised many speculations and explorations on its fascinating portrait as a culture in turmoil.

    However, I feel that more than “learning” about Islam you guys need to “unlearn” a lot about Islam.

    On the other hand if you are so ‘ever ready’ to believe every nonsense written about Islam then why don’t you pay heed to what the moderate voices keep writing , saying and discussing about Islam?

    Why this obdurate refusal to see the true picture and for once (god sake) “unlearn” what you have been feeding your mind with!

    Well, I can’t pick up the cudgel for Jews, but Prophet Mohammad (PBU) was the ‘Messenger of Peace’ and anyone who believes in what he preached and is a follower of his messages, can visit Mecca.

    As for British ruling and then leaving India, and if Muslims too would leave India?
    Let me tell you that you are seriously confused here, and need to get your facts together.

    British were the outsiders and they need to be driven away.
    Indian Muslims belong to India. No one can drive them away from their own country. If you have read history you will know about the Great Revolt of 1847, when Hindu and Muslims fought for “their” country “together” to throw out the outsider, the British.

    I am an Indian Muslim and proud to be one; and if you notice, ‘Indian’ comes before ‘Muslim’. So there!

    All the best, for you peace of mind.

    Regards

    Nazia

    Sam Reply:

    So you are basically you do not want to answer any of the questions I put…
    I am not surprised in any way, as that is totally expected by all the muslims.

    Actually moderate muslims are more hyprocrite as they refuse to answer.
    Extreme muslims are sometimes more honest and give their true feelings and answers.

    Again, why Jewish people cannot visit their ancestral lands in Mecca/Medina ?
    Why should they believe in Islam to do that ?
    This is religious aparthied and it’s refusal by moderate muslims is scary.

    As Salman Rushdie said, Islam is like Satanic verses.

    Please read some of the ex-muslims about the true nature of islam..
    http://www.islam-watch.org

    Muslims don’t need to leave india, but islam should.
    Islam brings nothing but violence, dhimmitude and jiziya on other religions.
    When islam is in full power, everybody will know the true islam.
    But unfortunately it will too late for the dhimmi’s, as they will pay with their life/freedom/property by that time.

    The so-called moderate muslims are waiting for the extreme muslims to take over and until then they are like sleeper-cells…just waiting for an opportunity to subdue or kill their neighbors,,,enslave them…

    Anyway Islam allows the right to own and sell a slave, as Mohd owned slaves.

    Sam Reply:

    Regarding your statement, that islam is the fastest growing religion…
    yes they are breeding without regard to the world over population problem …
    Many animals also breed without regard to their welfare for their children or future generations.

    also lot of ex-muslims are afraid to say that they left islam..So they are not counted.

    Once you leave you Madrassah math, you will know that is not a big deal..

    Sam Reply:

    If chinese family want 10 children per family, they would be fastest growing race/country..
    But they understand the raw numbers are not a big deal..

    But the sad part is, muslims are not only negligent, but are proud of their excessive breeding…
    They think it is a big achievement in saying “fastest growing religion”
    Even dogs or pigs can breed, but we consider them irresponsible.

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Hi Zia

    I love this title, “They call me Muslim” , it just about says it all, and so much more!

    I wish I had written it =)

    Best

    Nazia

    Zia Haq Reply:

    THANK YOU SO MUCH, BELATEDLY

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Oh yes Sam=)

    We are so proud to ‘breed’ (as you say:) More power to Islam!

    As for your non stop ignorant views…Well…Jesus Christ said ” Forgive them, for they no not what they are doing ”

    Peace!

    Nazia

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    You have not answered a single question I asked.

    The problem is most muslims are ignorant of islam and believe it is a religion of peace…
    (whatever the local Mollah tells).

    Once they read their texts in full, some of them are honest to realize that whatever they were told is a big lie…

    others refuse to believe the reality and are in total denial…

    read http://www.islam-watch.org .

    you are still welcome to answer my questions, if you are a learned person.

    if not, that is fine as ignorance is bliss.
    I do not want to disturb your blissful view of islam..

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Okay Sam

    This discussion is actually going nowhere. Your views and launguage you use when you describe Muslims and Islam are too “coloured”, I am afraid=)

    Have you read the holy Quran in full text with complete comprehension of its meaning? I don’t think so, otherwise you would not have been getting into this meaningless debate.

    Many Non Muslims, I fear, think they know a Muslim when they see one.

    I do not answer your questions because you talk only about news. Pieces of news taken from
    anti Islamic sites, you quote Salman Rushdie and his likes who suffer from severe identity crisis.
    Come on, they don’t represent Islam.

    What you are contantly talking about are not doctrines of Islam, but ‘bad press’.

    Bring me an original text from Quran in Arabic , which you find is incomprehensible or denotes what you have implied in your questions and I will give you the full definition of it in English, for your better understanding!

    Just calling names like ‘dogs’ and ‘pigs’ for Muslim will get you nowhere.

    I realize that there are some half baked articles, including some global Mail and newspapers, imply that Islam is an inherently violent religion.
    It must be true, they insist, because some “Muslims” carry out violence in its name.

    Well, I’m not going to defend Islam here, because it really needs no defending!!

    A religion that is 1,400 years old and practised by some 2 billion people around the world has withstood greater foes than these poorly informed journalists, columnists and letter writers.

    I am in full understanding of what it means to be a Muslim and the blissful views are actually blissful.

    BTW no Mullah or Taliban or Osama Bin Laden can teach a Muslim what it means to be one.

    When you get back to me next please come armed with text of original Quran with page number, sura number and paragraph number, in which it says, what you say, it says ( I hope I have not confused you) and then I will answer.

    So long

    best wishes

    Nazia

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    You can answer my questions for this discussion to proceed further.

    Until then good bye..

    Sam Reply:

    Nazia,
    If someone shows courage they may be called a Tiger or a lion to signify the courageous act…

    But they are not lion/tiger…it is a symbolic representation of something.

    It is just recognizing an act or a certain traits or certain behaviour.

    I can call certain actions or behaviour as that of a dog.
    For example, loyalty to master is a greatly appreciated trait in a dog..

    If you read carefully, you will know that I have never called anyone a dog or a pig.

    Among the domestic animals, dogs or pigs can have 6-10 puppies/piglets in a single birth.
    I am only referring to this act of procreating, symbolically…

    If my friends call me, I am like a dog towards all my friends I will not be offended.
    I take it as a compliment, as I am loyal to my friends/family.

    But if they use that expression in a different context of procreating, I will disagree with them…

    Hope you took time to read my statements closely.

    Taranjeet Reply:

    Sam I can see your face in my imaginations with two horns on your head !Man can’t you say a single word of PEACE?

  • Sam

    Will Saudi arabia allow Jewish people to visit Mecca and Medina, to mend fences ?
    After all, Jewish people were living there hundreds of years before Mohd heard some funny verses to ban them from that place.

    [Reply]

  • KK

    Kalyan Basu’s comment is more satisfying. I was expecting some critical analysis, figures, historical facts or indepth study from Zia.

    Some opinion to Basu’s and Sam’s comment:

    Islam started by killing group of people who were warshiping cows (infidil), some scholars relate this group with today’s Hindu religion. Some scholars claim it is the Hindu religion (inlcuding Budhism in Indian definition) which has suffered a lot by Islam and not Jewes/Christianity. Hindu was most exploited and oftended by Islam. Hindu/Budhism has been at receiving site historically by Islam as Afganistan (Budhist), Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia all were Hindu countries, the whole region now is home to at least 800 million muslim (about 60% of worlds muslim). We can not compare Hindu/Budhism/Jainism/Sikhism with Islam/Chritianity, becasue Islam/Christianity are religion, and Hindu/Budhism/Jainism/Sikhism etc are Dharma. They are not the same, if you deeply analyse based on Koran/Bible you will find religion means many aspect of beleiving GOD and following certain rules to achive it, whereas in Geeta/Veda DHARMA is more often refer to become a good human being, precisely not interfering in day to day life. Thats why Hindu was more tolerant, less organized and against violence and was vunerable to Islamic aggression of late (Ashoka realized that violence is not the right path much much earlier than Mohammad and spreaded Budhism in non-violent ways). In India Budhism and Hindusim were popular in different time, some scholars are now claiming once for a period Budhism was more dominant then Hinuism, but these popularity was least to do with aggression or extremism. Indian realised violence is not the rigth path much ahead of middle eastern and western civilization. Ashoka’s Kalinga War is one good historical example. But this realization later on made the region weak for which foreigner easily invaded India and Islam could spread forcefully by war in most of the cases (If it was not for all the cases like Indonesia), Chistrinanity came to India before Islam but it could not spread like Islam because it was non-violent. Rationally I will not say Islam offer something great, (like many rational talk about Budhism these days), over Chritinaity so that people had reason to follow. It is also said that muslim in India, Malaysis and Indonesia are more tolerant compared to their counter part in other countries, some says it is due to historical Hindu influnce in the region (unlike aggressive middle east people who were historically known as pirates, thieves etc). During that period of India (other was China) was much ahead than many other regions in spiritualism and in many other aspect, such as 5000 years old Hindu ways of recognizing stars and planets is considered one of the pioneering development in science though it was not totally correct. But always sword paid for the middle easten people over tolerant Indian. Slowly Hindu became more volunerable but Britism came in the mean time. Indian independence and democracy gave a boost to Hindu group and religious Hindus started learning to group themselves from Islam/Christinity to defend their existance, like a resistance group. Hindu religious groups are not threatening or bringing trouble in any other country except defending religious conversion in India and fighting for their Hindu rights and beleives. Where as Islam is related to fighting in many countries for political reasons (autonomy) like Chechnya, Kosovo, Kashmir, North China, South Thailand, Philiphines etc.
    So, I will buy more Basu’s idea becasue religiously radical group does not fit to Hindu/Budhism (example Dalai Lama’s figtht against China for poltical reason is different than South Thailand) as VHP/BD whatever Hindu fundamentalist groups we have now are not the same like Taliban radicals becasue Hindu does not have any concept of Jihand to spread relegion. One can’t say they are radicals but fundamentalist like MAOISTS.

    In fact religiously in Hindu text there is nothing about conversion and spreading religion unlike in Islam/Christainity, whatever we see today by VHP/BD is created by this group to defend Hindu from other religion, VHP in not interpreting relegious text rather politically fighting against conversion and religious right. Whereas interpretation of Islam by Taliban is part of Quoran, a modern muslim may not agree to it, its different thing but its part of the Jihad mentioned in Quoran.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Islam started by killing group of people who were warshiping cows (infidil), some scholars relate this group with today’s Hindu religion……”

    not scholars, some idiots belonging to the “sangh parivar school of thought” might believe that..

    “whereas in Geeta/Veda DHARMA is more often refer to become a good human being…”

    yes a good human being who thinks of dalits as untouchables and worse than animals, a good human being who believes that women should burn in the same pyre as the husband…..just to mention a few of their “goodness”

    “Islam could spread forcefully by war in most of the cases…”
    yeah sure, it of course was not important that most lower caste people chose to convert simply because in Islam they had an option of being labeled “human” and not untouchables who have to clean the feces (a job they continue to do till this day) of the upper castes as in the great Hindu religion.

    “Chistrinanity came to India before Islam but it could not spread like Islam because it was non-violent….”

    yeah like the non-violent crusaders

    “some says it is due to historical Hindu influnce in the region…”

    Of course that goes without saying…all the goodness in mankind is due to hinduism and the evil behaviour due to Islam.

    “……considered one of the pioneering development in science”
    unlike of course the barbarian arabs who have not contributed anything to science….
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam#Views_of_historians_and_scholars

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_medieval_Islam

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_of_the_Islamic_Golden_Age

    and of course the only contribution from India according to you is 5,000 years old…and all contained in the vedas…of course the contributions after that be it by kautilya, Aryabhatta or the “kerala school of mathematics”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics

    wont come to your mind, since these things were not taught to you in the VHP training academies that you were educated in.

    “religious Hindus started learning to group themselves from Islam/Christinity to defend their existance, like a resistance group”

    yes just like their heroes from the Nazi camp (whom they worshipped and idolized), used to protect themselves from the Jews.

    http://ipsbu.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/madhu-limaye-describes-what-rss-is/
    http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/Puniyani6March06.html

    (Golkwalkar, M. S. (1939). We, or Our Nationhood Defined. Nagpur: Bharat Publications. p. 35.)

    “In fact religiously in Hindu text there is nothing about conversion…”

    I mean how stupid can you get…we are talking of a time when there was no other religion, and when one came in Buddhism, then the shankaracharya did begin conversions, how else would you explain the fact that buddhism disappeared from India….

    One final question to you is do you seriously believe all this nonsense you sprout??
    starting from judging patriotism by which cricket team one supports to whatever nonsense you write hear?

    [Reply]

    KK Reply:

    “not scholars, some idiots belonging to the “sangh parivar school of thought” might believe that….”
    Read the article by M A Khan (non Hindu) that I posted in one of the discussion earlier. Ali Sina (x-muslim, now atheist) may be of your help.

    “yes a good human being who thinks of dalits as untouchables and worse than animals, a good human being who believes that women should burn in the same pyre as the husband…..just to mention a few of their “goodness”

    Have you read Geeta? Already I explained about the issue in my last discussion. Sachar commitee says Muslim are worst even then Dalit in many aspects. In Hindu its untouchable, how does Islam consider Women? Machine? Do you know Ambedkar was also a dalit?

    “yeah sure, it of course was not important that most lower caste people chose to convert simply because in Islam they had an option of being labeled “human” and not untouchables who have to clean the feces (a job they continue to do till this day) of the upper castes as in the great Hindu religion.”

    Its just a cent. Getting emotional will not help you out in any way.

    “yeah like the non-violent crusaders”
    No, visit Kerala and Tamil Nadu, do a research. though its also not perfect Christinity is many ways superior than Islam in modern sense.

    “Of course that goes without saying…all the goodness in mankind is due to hinduism and the evil behaviour due to Islam”
    Repeat: emotion will not help

    On science: yes middle east has contributed but not Islam relegion, i said about relegious Hindu text. Philosophy about Budhism is being experimented by now in scientiest in USA with the help of Dalai Lama.

    “(Golkwalkar, M. S. (1939). We, or Our Nationhood Defined. Nagpur: Bharat Publications. p. 35.)”
    RSS is not Hinduism. Its a politcal organization (like Hammas) sympathaizes Hindu.

    “I mean how stupid can you get…we are talking of a time when there was no other religion, and when one came in Buddhism, then the shankaracharya did begin conversions, how else would you explain the fact that buddhism disappeared from India….”

    You do not know at all Hinduism. Sankaracharjya does not come from religious text. The concept was introduced much later . Adi Sankarcharjay followed Vedanta. He was another relgious refomer. He did play a role in converting people but popularizing his philosophy, he did had Hindu opponent. In other words, you are saying what Hindu did in 2500 years ago Islam is doing now? I realize you intelectualism is as poor as Zakir Naik. By the way, in India Hindu do not considere Budhism as separate religion (Budha is an avatara in Hindu), So it will not be religious conversion rather sectarian like Sunni converting to Shia.

    You did not get my line. Repeating, where does Hindu text say to convert people? But Islam & Christinaity do say religiously one in other way. Thats where radical use it. VHP does also reconvert people now, but is it written in Hindu text? This is defensive tactis. What atheists say on this matter?

    Getting emotional and putting here and there will not help. Why are you hiding from atheist?

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    “Read the article by M A Khan (non Hindu) that I posted in one of the discussion earlier. Ali Sina (x-muslim, now atheist) may be of your help…”

    being non-hindus do not make them scholars. Neither of them are professional historians. I have nothing to say about their views on Islam, but if its history we are talking about the fact is that Pre-Islamic Arabia had nothing to do with hinduism, unless ofcourse you start claiming that any polytheistic, animal worshipping religion is hinduism.

    “Sachar commitee says Muslim are worst even then Dalit in many aspects…”

    yes and do you think only muslims are to blame for this?

    “Do you know Ambedkar was also a dalit?”

    yes and his views on Hinduism is well known…this is from Wikipedia:

    “Ambedkar lambasted Hinduism in the The Untouchables: A Thesis on the Origins of Untouchability:

    The Hindu Civilisation…. is a diabolical contrivance to suppress and enslave humanity. Its proper name would be infamy. What else can be said of a civilisation which has produced a mass of people… who are treated as an entity beyond human intercourse and whose mere touch is enough to cause pollution?”

    “You did not get my line. Repeating, where does Hindu text say to convert people?….”

    I “got your line” several posts back. You are not talking of conversions at all, thats just another excuse to forward your completely biased and illogical views, based on zero evidence.

    KK Reply:

    My sentence was “Islam started by killing group of people who were warshiping cows (infidil), some scholars relate this group with today’s Hindu religion.”
    Did I say they are Hindu? They are related to in some form. Whom it makes a scholar, your definition? By the way M A Khan has wirtten a book:

    Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery (by MA Khan)
    One chapter VI on India,

    CHAPTER VI
    ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM IN INDIA …………………………………………. 191
    The Islamic conquest and rule ……………………………………………………….. 194
    India before the coming of Islam ……………………………………………………… 201
    An advanced civilization: …………………………………………………………… 201
    A tolerant and humane society: ………………………………………………….. 205
    Muslim codes of war: ………………………………………………………………. 207
    Indian tolerance in the eyes of Muslim chroniclers: ………………………….. 210
    Tolerance & chivalry of Hindu rulers during Muslim period: ………………… 212
    Hindu-Muslim divide: A British invention? …………………………………………. 217
    Hindu-Muslim discord, Partition of India & British complicity ………………… 220
    The 1947 Riots and Massacres: Who is Responsible? ………………………… 225
    The Mopla Rebellion: ………………………………………………………………. 225
    Direct Action riots in Calcutta. …………………………………………………… 226
    Anti-Hindu riots move to East Bengal: ………………………………………….. 231
    Hindu counterattack in Bihar: …………………………………………………….. 232
    Riots move to Pakistan: …………………………………………………………….. 234
    Sikh and Hindu Retaliation: ………………………………………………………… 237
    Premeditated ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs: ………………………… 239
    Ethnic cleansing of Muslims: ………………………………………………………. 242
    Who bears the responsibility? ………………………………………………………. 245
    Islam’s impact on the social, intellectual and cultural life of India ……………… 246
    On Education and learning: ………………………………………………………….. 246
    Caste system worsened: …………………………………………………………….. 249
    Islam created the practice of Jauhar: ………………………………………………. 252
    Sati worsened under the Muslim rule: …………………………………………….. 252
    Islam promoted child-marriage: …………………………………………………….. 253
    Islam created the deadly thuggee cult: ……………………………………………. 254
    Islam’s impact on religious demographics: past & present ………………………. 257
    Muslim rule and poverty ………………………………………………………………….. 259
    Legacy ………………………………………………………………………………………. 263

    Chapter IV also discuss some aspect.
    CHAPTER IV

    PROPAGATION OF ISLAM: BY FORCE OR PEACEFULLY ………………… 73
    The early wars for spreading Islam …………………………………………….. 74
    Propagation of Islam: Quranic commands and prophetic model…………. 77
    Muslim scholars on the wars for spreading Islam ………………………….. 79
    Protecting sovereignty of the Islamic state: ………………………………. 81
    Overcoming tyranny of foreign rulers: ……………………………………… 83
    Freeing weak countries from oppressive rulers: …………………………. 85
    Removing tyranny and oppression: ………………………………………… 86
    Welcome in Spain: …………………………………………………………….. 89
    How so many Hindus survived in India? ……………………………………….. 92
    Why so many people in India are still Hindus? ………………………………. 97
    How conversion took place in India? ……………………………………………. 99
    Conversion by the sword: ………………………………………………………. 99
    Conversion through enslavement: ……………………………………………. 101
    Enslaved women as reproduction tools: ……………………………………. 102
    Humiliation & economic burdens contributing to conversion: ………….. 105
    Conversion under brutal Aurangzeb: ………………………………………… 109
    Brutal Conversion in Kashmir: ………………………………………………… 111
    Deceptive propaganda about conversion ……………………………………….. 112
    Voluntary conversion: ……………………………………………………………. 112
    Conversion of lower caste Hindus: ……………………………………………. 112
    Peaceful conversion by Sufis: …………………………………………………. 115
    Conversion by traders in Southeast Asia: …………………………………… 133
    What enabled the conversion of the otherwise resistant infidels of
    Southeast Asia to Islam so quickly after Muslims gained political
    power? ………………………………………………………………………………… 139
    Conclusion ………………………………………………………………………………. 146

    If you have time, you can comment on this.

    Now you will deny, the escaping route at the end, like in last discussion.

    If Amedkar could overcome and become a national Hero, then where is inhuman treatment of Dalit?
    Its the beauty of Hinduism for which Amedkar could criticize it. It makes proud that it gives power to even marginalized people. Mayabati could criticieze Gandhi and become CM of UP, is not a good thing for rational Hindu? I hope becomes PM. What about Women in Islam, lets say?

    “I “got your line” several posts back. You are not talking of conversions at all, thats just another excuse to forward your completely biased and illogical views, based on zero evidence.”
    Not at all. Just you are only in your world. I was talking about conversion, neither taking any excuse, you yourselves are confusing things without giving any inputs to it and saying the same thing over and over.

    One evidence did not I give data and figure, how many evidence you need? Did you give any one? I have already posted many articles containing figures. You are sending me wikipedia link, which even I can modify it the way I want (For your note, wikipedia is schoarly not accepted but books are scholarly accepted like MA Khan’s, you can refer them). I do not know how much you beleive wikipedia.

    On cricket issue I have answered you earlier, still you repeat again the same thing. Did you enquire with your com……. and find it out statistically?
    I repeat again “cricket may not be a parameter to judge patriotism but large part of muslim Indian WERE supporting Pakistan due to loyality”. you better go back my old posting, when you talked about Aswarya Rai.

    I do not need your judgement I know where I stand, and also known where you stand.

    Bobby Reply:

    “Now you will deny, the escaping route at the end, like in last discussion….”

    Your links in the last post were so ridiculous, that there was nothing left to say. One such ridiculous line was what i commented on in my last comment in that post…..This is yet another instance where you show that you do not read what you post yourself….at least read before you post such stupid links.

    “If you have time, you can comment on this….”
    This guy is not a professional historian as far as i can see….in his own words his only identity is that he is an “ex-muslim”..thats it!! I mean why should anyone bother to read what he has written?? If you know of any work of his that appears in a peer-reviewed journal or can show me his credentials as a historian of repute i am ready to read his work……

    In any case, I have nothing to say about whether Islam has a violent past…all religions do… It happens in different forms,…… Crusades for example or the terrible caste-system in India…..

    “If Amedkar could overcome and become a national Hero, then where is inhuman treatment of Dalit?”

    well if you dont see the inhuman treatment of dalits in India you cant be living in India…maybe you don’t. Because if you did then you would see it by simply reading any newspaper…. dalits being killed because they skinned a cow, because they drank water from a well….etc….

    “Its the beauty of Hinduism for which Amedkar could criticize it. It makes proud that it gives power to even marginalized people….”

    NO its not the beauty of hinduism, its the beauty of human courage to go against hinduism….which is what reforms are all about…to go against what is written in the texts, and use one’s own judgement of what is right and wrong…

    “On cricket issue I have answered you earlier, still you repeat again the same thing….”

    Your answers are all made up when your real biases get exposed.

    For you someone supporting a pakistan cricket team is indeed a patriotism test…..and this is not just you…I have heard this kind of nonsensical logic from several of your ilk….

    KK Reply:

    Now you will say that …escape route…. does X-muslim has anything to do with history? For your interest he is not a Hindu, is not? now X-muslim matters, yes, we should ask a Shekh to write history or Taleban or may be Zakir Naik? Is not? Do not make fool yourself, such work are being reviewed by well known and established writer all over the world…. if he fabriates histroy, others are not sitting to become fool. May be you are extraordinary or abnormal.

    Why can’t you challenge him? He has given open challegen to whole world on Islam.

    Do you also read news paper about Dalit’s success? Do you also read about treatment of Women in Islam?

    Beauty, where is this courage in Islam? Thanks God Ambedkar was not killed by upper caste Hindu and made him constitutional head. You can’t deny certain things.

    Now you will say criket is this that…. nice of way of denying thing is not to accept any thing…. figure or facts,…. do not need justification….. one can feel your pain

    KK Reply:

    best way for you is to deny the fact.

    you are wrong, i do read and post it. thats why I say fact. Fact are always presented neutrally, I have you an example on Kandhamal earlier…without changing it. All are not like you, afraid of religion…. what is MA Khan’s interest on Hindu? Did you read why he left Islam? In my opinion he is the real muslim and Amedkar is the real Hindu, now its your interpretation what and whom to accept or not.

    KK Reply:

    How terrible caste system is related to violence? Are you talking about domestic violence similar to muslim women suffer in domestic life, raped by relatives?

    Many lower caste people were converted to Islam as slaves.

    If you have heard many such logic (its not a logic by the way, you are putting a logic to it, this is a general observation) from several ilk, why do not you make survey in any place such as in Delhi, Mumbai or Hyderabad among muslim population how was the situation 5 years back? Now many might deny due to current situation in India and Pakistan. I will say you do not know India in many ways. You have only misconception like an uneducated muslim misguided by sheikh.

    KK Reply:

    Read this:

    MA Khan’s Preface

    I was born and brought up in a conservative Muslim society. After graduating in India, I moved to the West for furthering my education. Despite my conservative Muslim background, I grew up with a liberal outlook. In my school and university days, my closest friends were Hindus and Sikhs: I felt more comfortable with them as they were more liberal, easy-going and humble with fewer religious scruples. I had wholly given up religious rituals by the time I completed my university studies: they just didn’t attract me.

    When 9/11 occurred, I had lived in a liberal society for over a decade. I had become consciously convinced that religious rituals—prayers, fasting, pilgrimage—were all meaningless. I should be rewarded, I felt, for working hard, and intelligently, not for aping some wasteful rituals, which brings good to nobody. Non-Muslims were my best friends; shocking my Muslim peers, I ate haraam (prohibited) foods, drank alcohol (in moderation).

    Despite the kind of a liberal person I had become, let me be honest that I was not excluded from those Muslims who felt that the 9/11 attacks were justified, although I felt those perished in it died undeserving deaths. Muslim societies universally portray America as a mortal enemy of Islam, particularly for its stance on the Israel-Palestine conflict. America’s mindless support for Israel has been causing terrible oppression and untold sufferings to Palestinian Muslims. There was, undoubtedly, an overriding sense of justification for the 9/11 attacks amongst Muslims; it gave the unjust superpower a bloody nose: I, so little a Muslim, thought that way too.

    Weird as it may sound, I still believed in Islam. I thought the terrorists, acting in the name of Islam, were misguided. After 9/11, I slowly started reading about Islam: Quran, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad’s biographies; I hadn’t read them in the thirty-five years of my life. I was shocked. I had been told all my life that Prophet Muhammad was the ideal human being: most merciful and just; that Islam is the most peaceful religion; and I believed it. But the Quran reads like a manifesto of open-ended war against non-Muslims for converting them or for subjugating them into horribly degraded dhimmi subjects. In his prophetic career, especially during the critical last ten years, Prophet Muhammad was anything but what a peace-loving, merciful and just person stands for.

    My curiosity grew. Over the past years, I have done extensive research on Islamic theology as well as on Islamic history: from Prophet Muhammad to modern times. It has been a harrowing tale of forced conversion, brutal imperialism and devastating slavery. It’s a saga of great human tragedy—all in the name of Islamic holy war or Jihad, the foundational creed of Islam. This tragic tale is the subject of this book.

    Has not he done research before writing this book? You can also find some of the reviewers and Check their biography,

    http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/Islamic-Jihad-Legacy-of-Forced-Conversion-Imperialism-Slavery.htm

    Please do not make fool of yourselves.

    Sam Reply:

    Islam’s founder Mohammed had slaves and Islam permits buying and selling slaves for profit.

    Compared to that, Dalit’s were never bought and sold.
    Parents are not separated from children and sold to make profit for the slave owner.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    very nice logic sam, I am sure the Dalits will be greatly relieved to know that are not slaves only untouchables “whose mere touch is enough to cause pollution”

    Sam Reply:

    As bad as untouchability is, given a chance to chose between slavery (& separation from spouse, children) and untouchability most people will chose the latter.

    Again untouchability is abolished and it will be history, in a very short time.

    Same thing cannot be said for many muslims, who want to replicate everything Mohd did.
    Look at Saudi arabia, as they are supposed to be the closest Islamic heaven on earth.

    Sam Reply:

    Read chachnama and other chronicles of history written by muslim authors themselves.
    Why did those islamic thugs attack India.
    Hindus did not cause any problem to them, but they still attacked and killed and took hundreds of thousands of woman’s as slaves and sold in Baghdad and so many central asian cities.

    Would you like your father/brother/husband killed and then separated from your children and sold as a sex slave in some middle east or central asian country ?
    or atleast you can live with your family/community as a second class citizen ?

    In my opinion, they are totally different level of crimes.

    Sam Reply:

    Bobby,
    Why not conduct a survey about my statement vs your views/statements.

    Throughout history, there are several instances when life/liberty/property/family is at stake people try to run away whenever possible.

    Parsis ran away from arab muslim invaders, as it was unbearable what arab thugs did to them.

    Can you imagine taking a boat and going on a 1000/1500 mile journey in 8/9th century ?
    with primitive knowledge and no dependable navigation ?

    Why did Zoroastrians do it ?

    Simple reason, the other option was slavery or death…

    Dalits went through lot of discrimination.
    If that discrimination crossed a certain limit, there would have been out-migration from India.

    Throughout history, there was very little out-migration from India (whatever happened as mostly because of economic reasons).

    That just shows the level of desperation or cruel infliction of violence or slavery was never even close to what it was in the rest of the world..

    K Reply:

    KK Dude, this verbal diarrhoea is stinking !!

    Look at my id – you dont even need to repeat that ‘K’ in your id !! :o )

    [Reply]

  • Ashish

    The Pope is wrong. And he knows it.
    The clergy of all religion in the western world have more to fear from spreading “Godless-ness”, particularly in Europe.
    All organized religions like Christianity and Islam need “customers”. If the existing markets shrink, they aim to open new markets; by conversion. So, Africa is happy hunting ground for both.
    The church is losing members in droves in Europe where people increasingly do not have much time for religion. A large and growing population is atheists/ agnostics. This is the bigger threat to the Church than Islam. Especially since, with dwindling population, Europe offers a challenge to maintaining the “collections” at the present level.
    If you are a devout Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian, you are more open to persuasion to choose a different path (read convert). But if you are Godless (atheist), the task is harder.
    Atheists are a common challenge to Islam and Christianity. No wonder, the Pope wants to make common cause with the Islamic clergy.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    I agree with Ashish’s comments. The biggest threat to all religions is really atheism and though it may not seem like it, religions are on their way out….. Its already happening in western society especially Europe….. it will take more time in religious parts of Asia like the middle east and South Asia….but its just a matter of time.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    http://www.frontline.org.za/news/end_of_islam.htm

    THE THREAT OF FREEDOM
    Islam cannot survive freedom. The Quran cannot survive intense scrutiny and critical investigation. In this technological age, Islam’s days are numbered. Although they can hijack Western technology to use against the West, the foundations of Islam are rotten to the core and cannot stand.

    [Reply]

    KK Reply:

    In case Hitler would have won the war and imposed his idea as religion to the people in Europe, what could have happened to those part of the world? Was not the case somewhere in the world?

    Bobby Reply:

    horoscopes and astrology have nothing to do with culture, its like believing in ghosts..totally unscientific and has already been disproved.

    Sam Reply:

    I have yet to see any part of the world, which in some way or other does not believe in astrology, some kind of futurists like psychic’s in the west..

    It only varies by the percentage in each society..

    US president Ronald Reagan’s wife Nancy Reagan was supposed to do things only as suggested by her astrologer..

    Bobby Reply:

    Do you think that legitimizes astrology in any way? Astrologers and godmen are basically frauds and should be dealt in that manner.

    Sam Reply:

    If astrologers are cheating people with their money, then they should be dealt with.

    Other than that, if someone wants to believe something (as long as it does not hurt others), why not let them live their way.

    there are bigger problems which i will worry about..
    . wish every family will have only one child like in china and control the population and overcrowding..

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Bobby

    I have been following these debates off and on, and do respond as and when I feel that something needs to be corrected.

    However, to be frank, most of the time I feel that it is a futile exercise and I read the comments with my tongue firmly in the cheek and just gloss over. ..

    I feel that only the bloggers gets to have the benefit of all these lengthy discussions, it increases the traffic to their blogs, just like all those stupid TV talk shows on 24×7 channels, where some supercilious presenter would have all the focus on themselves and go on and on about a particular subject, and at the end of the talks, the enitre panel looks at the camera with a sheepish grin on their faces wondering what exactly was all this fuss about???

    The TV host gets the exclusive focus and the TRP of the show increases; and the audience are left wanting!

    Likewise we are doing nothing here but going in circles on a topic that needs a better forum than this blog site.

    But ,on the other hand I must say that I really appreciate your views and thoughts. It infuses a breath of fresh air in all this miasma of religious intolerence!

    Keep it up.

    Best wishes

    Nazia

    Nazia Mallick Reply:

    Sam

    You said, ‘US president Ronald Reagan’s wife Nancy Reagan was supposed to do things only as suggested by her astrologer.’

    I see a colonial hangover here, you know the kind where most Indians suck up to the Westerners and think that if a ‘Gora’ is doing something then it ought to be a superior thing!!!

    Why does it make astrology more credible just because the Westerners Ronald Reagan and Nancy are supposedly believing in it?
    Reading this comment made me laugh, really!!

    AND , You say astrology doesn’t harm anybody???

    I think you have missed a big news that recently made a splash on the national dailies.

    A father in Bombay was raping his daughter for years on the behest of a Astrologer who had advised him to have sex with his daughter in order to increase the profits in his business!!

    He was vying for the second daughter when he was caught and handed over to police. All due to blind belief in Astrology!!!

    What can be more harmful than that?

    Sam Reply:

    My statement is
    “I have yet to see any part of the world, which in some way or other does not believe in astrology, some kind of futurists like psychic’s in the west..”

    Please read some of my comments regarding this in She Baba blog.

    I am not saying people should believe in something, just because some other person or culture believes…
    nancy reagan’s example is just to say that there are people who believe in things and it is not just cultural… this phenemenon is kind of world wide (though they go with different names and to different extent, and different percentages in each society..)

    I do not know lot of things about what you are saying (in this comment of yours), so I am no position to comment on them.
    So I will skip responding on those issues.

    KK Reply:

    Thanks Sam for the link. But even though some may not agree.

    JUST THE FACTS
    Slavery, Terrorism and Islam exposes the falsehood of these and other prevalent myths propagated about Islam. Far from Islam being a great religion of learning, tolerance and peace, this book presents the historical facts, and sets the record straight. Muhammad declared that if other books confirmed what was in the Quran then they didn’t need them. And if the books did not confirm what was in the Quran they didn’t want them. So the order was: Burn them! The Muslims burned libraries all across North Africa and the Middle East. They burned the library of Alexandria – the largest library in the world at that time. It probably included original copies of the Bible and other priceless manuscripts.

    “THE BLOODIEST STORY IN HISTORY”
    Will Durant in his The Story of Civilisations, describes the Muslim invasion of India as “probably the bloodiest story in history.” The North Western region of India is called the Hindu Kush (“the slaughter of the Hindu”) as a reminder of the vast number of Hindu slaves who died while being marched across the Afghan Mountains to the Muslim slave markets in Central Asia. The Buddhists were also targeted for destruction. In AD 1193 Muhammad Khilji burned to the ground their famous library and the Buddhist stronghold of Bihar.

    Shah Jahan is remembered as the builder of the Taj Mahal. What few Westerners know is that the builder of the Taj Mahal launched 48 military campaigns against non-Muslims in just 30 years. In AD 1628 he killed all his male relatives. Shah Jahan had 5,000 concubines in his harem but also indulged in incestuous sex with his daughters. In just one town, Banares, Jahan destroyed 76 Hindu temples. He also demolished Christian churches at Agra and Lahore. When he captured Hugh, a Portuguese enclave near Calcutta, he had 10,000 inhabitants “blown up with powder, drowned in water or burned by fire.” Another 4,000 were enslaved and offered Islam or death. Those who refused to convert were killed.

    Bobby Reply:

    as usual KK you have not read the link at all. Its a link by a Christian fundamentalist with the aim of converting Muslims to Christianity. If you had read it a bit more carefully before typing things here, you would have noticed the references to Christian scriptures and prophecies of how the whole world will bow before Christ. I do not understand why you keep on citing such articles/post such links which has no academic credibility whatsoever. How on earth can you take such people with dubious reputations Seriously??

    KK Reply:

    i have read the link before posting and knew that he had a missionary fellowship but why christian would have worried about Hindu cause? In fact they have a larger concern in Hindu. But the work is also supported by many others non-chrisitan group, is not? What abot MA Khan? All these people also do research, what you consider a person having PhD, not an academician? I think you are trying to hide using a word “academic”, these are having academic ability with research work, done by professionals, its not one vioce, there are may such voice, every time you are making a reason to escape. May be you are looking a voice which support Zakir Naik, that would be difficult in rational world although you will find many people who sympathaize just becasue of their own religion. Your acceptance is not required, anyway!!!

    Bobby Reply:

    None of the people you cite so often have any academic background, as far as i can see. They are not people who publish in any peer-reviewed journal for instance. Its not very hard to fool laymen by writing books, the point is whether historians take these works seriously and as far as I can see they do not. If what I am saying is wrong, then please let me know whether historians have reviewed his work positively.

    Ashish Reply:

    @ Bobby:
    Much as I would like to see it happen, I doubt, sadly, if religions are indeed on their way out. The proselytizers will see to it that religions spread. They have a vast untapped market in Africa and in Asia to a lesser degree. Also, remember that US is deeply religious as a society. I would not expect buses painted with “There is perhaps no God” ply in Washington DC as they are doing in London.
    As someone who has grown-up “into atheism” rather than grown-up as an atheist, I still credit the basic tenets of the religion I was born into, which is Hindusim, with instilling basic values in myself. I am sure most religions in the world will teach the same. Values such as not stealing, speaking the truth, being fair, having respect for women and men and so on. Many of the so called superstitions or cultural manifestations- distorted or otherwise, of religions are actually used to reinforce some of the core beliefs. Even today, I can’t touch a book or even a newspaper with my foot (Goddess Saraswati will be angry! is the superstition but, I argue that this just reinforces at an early age your love and reverence for the printed word). There are much more thoughtless superstitious beliefs in Christianity for instance (I leave Islam out, as this seems to provoke such strong reactions- pro and anti!). Desperately looking for miracles to substantiate the Sainthood of Mother Teresa (why do you need a manufactured miracle to bestow sainthood upon one of 20th century’s greats?) or cutting up mortal remains of Francis Xavier and distributing them among the churches of the world.. how do all of these square with the beliefs of a “modern, progressive forward thinking” religion?
    I still call myself a Hindu. And an Atheist. And, no; there is no contradiction. There is a strong tradition of God-scepticism in our scriptures. I argue, very seriously, that Hinduism is the true “Catholic” religion, in the original meaning of the word Catholic since it allows so many, often contradictory thoughts to coexist. Much like my idea of India. And, I argue that the presence of so many religions, languages and cultures living together for centuries points to the basic tolerance of the majority of the Indians; who happen to be Hindus and this happens to be our culture.
    Every country in the world has a dominant socio-cultural ethos. Language, religion, food habits, societal imperatives, economic conditions.. all come together in an interlinked mosaic to shape those ethos. Of course those ethos are dynamic and they change and evolve. How to handle assimilation and integration issues are big challenges. Britain and France are taking vastly different approaches to integrating Muslims in their society. Which one will work? Only time can tell. But, no country can be expected to significantly compromise on its dominant ethos to pander to minorityism.
    Political and religious leaders exploit poverty and lack of education to expand their market. The poorest are the most vulnerable to exhortations aimed at their dignity or even plain identity. This makes the Muslims the most vulnerable in the world today.
    VHP/ Bajrang Dal, reprehensible as they are, are plain stupid (thankfully). Their constituency is largely the urban Indian and not the poor and destitute. So, I do not expect them to ever become a force capable enough to subvert the basic cultural ethos of our country.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Hi Ashish,

    May be I am just more optimistic than you are regarding this one issue, but i do believe that religion is on its way out :) even though I agree about the US being more religious than Europe. My optimism comes from the progress that science makes everyday, and I am not talking of the technological progress which is really a side effect, but rather the philosophical effects.

    What evolutionary Biology, Modern Cosmology and Physics is doing is pushing God further and further away from our day to day existence and life, by removing the need of the idea of a “GOD” to explain things. In so doing it is encroaching upon space and answering questions which previously was in realm of Religion and mysticism.

    The battles we see in the US academia in introducing garbage like creationism in Biology classes and the failed attempts of morons like M.M. Joshi to introduce pseudo-science (astrology) into science class rooms in India (during the dark days of the Sangh-Parivar rule) is a desperate act on the part of these jokers to deny facts, but as we all know “truth always prevails” …and these people do not have a leg to stand on. !!

    Not wanting to put one’s feet on paper is really not superstition and indeed celebrating saraswati pujas etc are more cultural than religious, as long as one does not have any confusion about why one is doing it!!

    I think the statement that all these various ideas, atheism and strong theism are part of Hinduism is really a matter of definition of what one means by Hinduism. If you call every aspect of Indian culture and beliefs to be Hinduism , then yes may be you are right, but then the definition loses its meaning. I think most cultures through out the world have had a atheistic tradition. And till recently these traditions have been not very popular. And I think for good reason, because I feel the strongest reason for being an atheist is the fact that science provides by far much more convincing answers to questions that till recently was in the domain of the unknown and the mystic.

    And this is a very recent phenomenon…and this is why I think whether or not “There is a strong tradition of God-scepticism in our scriptures” is irrelevant to the whole atheism debate.

    “VHP/ Bajrang Dal, reprehensible as they are, are plain stupid (thankfully). Their constituency is largely the urban Indian and not the poor and destitute. So, I do not expect them to ever become a force capable enough to subvert the basic cultural ethos of our country.”

    And here I feel you are fat too optimistic than I am :) I feel you are wrong in doubting their will and capacity. These are fundamentalist organizations and I think any fundamentalist organizations are highly motivated group of people with a single ideology(In this case the formation of a Hindu Rashtra), which I think is dangerous.

    Sam Reply:

    I think you have a rosy view about the religions.
    Please see the reality of what is happening in all around the world.

    If you think HIndu Rashtra is dangerous, please fight against abolishing all religious countries around the world.

    There are more than 60 islamic countries.
    What is your opinion about them ? Should they exist, like Saudi arabia ?
    In saudi arabia, they think they are pure and will be polluted if they let anyone build a church or a temple.

    They have religious apartheid and banned all Jewish people to step into Mecca/Medinah.
    Jewish people lived for hundreds of years before Mohd showed up and claimed all of the land for muslim god allah..

    now jewish people cannot even visit their anscestral places..

    Bobby Reply:

    “”I think you have a rosy view about the religions.”"
    exactly which part of my answer gave you the impression that i have a rosy view on religion???

    Sam Reply:

    the concept that all religions either teach love or all of them are irrational or that they are going away with rationality….

    you are not able to see the hold religion has or will continue to have …

    For example, not a single person responded to my simple and direct questions.
    Why ?
    I cannot even guess why ?

    They are as follows.

    1. Jiziya imposed on Sikhs/Hindus in Pakistan

    Would you condemn it ?

    2. Can Muslims mend fences and welcome Jewish people to Mecca/Medina, as they lived for hundred of years before Mohd showted up ?

    3. What are your views on “death upon leaving islam” rules in many countries.

    4. What are your views on religious apartheid in Saudi arabia ?
    Would you support building churches/synagogues/temples in that country ?

    5. As per islam, are Hindus innocent ?
    As per islam how do you define terrorist and terrorist actions ?

    Bobby Reply:

    I guess this shows that you do not read my responses. I have said that the good part of most religions are usually universal moral values inherent in all of us and which do not need any kind of theology or existence of god etc….

    About your questions regarding what Islam teaches or doesnot teach, I can not comment because i do not know any thing about its teachings, nor could I care less.

    But If you ask me whether I condemn somethings like death for apostasy or jizya tax…I consider it an insult that you even ask me these quetions…

    Sam Reply:

    Even if some questions are below your dignity, want to know where you stand.

    Will you think it is below dignity, if i ask you about racial apartheid in South Africa ?
    What do you think about religious apartheid in Saudi Arabia ?

    It is important because all muslims turn towards mecca 5 times a day to pray.
    So all them want to be like to arab muslims in Saudi, when they get a chance.

    Anyway recently Jizya was imposed on Sikhs/Hindus in Pakistan

    “I have said that the good part of most religions are usually universal moral values”

    ….

    That is exactly where I do not agree with you.
    It is like saying all parties in democracy teach love for the society, respect to others….
    why not include Nazi’s in this category..

    Even Mafia teaches respect to elders, keeping their word…
    But in the end, they only exist to terrorize and kill others.
    Not all political philosophies are good, nor desired.

    Some political philosophies disguise themselves as religions and deceive people who believe all religions teach good.

    It is like a Trojan Horse in Greek history.
    The true form gets revealed when they are in full power.

    Bobby Reply:

    Its not about dignity, like any sane person i am against any apartheid..the point is i do not think any person commenting on this blog would think otherwise, so your question is really pointless and to some extent insulting. Why should answer such stupid questions. Do you go about asking people whether they believe in caste system or Nazi philosophy???

    Your views on Islam are pretty clear, but I do not agree with you about it. I do not think it espouses any more hatred or insanity than any other religion does. The reason I do not think so is not because I know about the tenets of Islam, but rather because I do not find my muslim friends any more fundamentalist or violent than my friends of any other religion or for that matter atheists.

    Sam Reply:

    Bobby.

    Just read the issues going on in Iran, Saudi, Somalia, Malaysia,…. so many muslim countries where islam is the law of land.

    Or for that matter, even your neighbouring countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh..
    Do you know anyone other than islam is not allowed to build a religious place in Maldives..
    This was a buddhist/hindu country not that far in history..

    If you think you know islam, just by knowing having some muslim friends…keep thinking that way.

    just expand your circle of friends, from other countries in muslim world..
    then come back and write about it, after having frank discussions with them on religion and specifically arab islam.

    For some people ignorance is bliss.
    I do not want to take away someone’s bliss.

    KK Reply:

    It has happened in Japan but in a different way. Japan might have most percentage of atheist mind people in the world, has also lowest conversion (to Chritianity) rate in the world, but still Japanese are deep culturally rooted. Some predicts India might be soon like Japan and not like Europe in future. That means people are not religious mentally and do not care religion in day to day life but celebrate cultural activity in religious line, visiting temple/shrine for cultural reasons and not by religious ground. Looking at Indian Hindu/Sikh sentiment somebody has predicted that with current trend Indian people will not be religious mentally but will not leave the culture at the same time. We have been already observing this trend in upper middle class and middle middle class Indian, they are no more relgious in the mean time not leaving their root too. Practically, it will have little impact to religious leader in India (similar to Japan), because Hindus are not obiliged to pay tax to temples (unlike 2.5% tax in Islam, and similar Church tax in Europe) except whatever they offer small amount to god/prist during visit.

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    sorry Indians at least for now are very religious and superstitious. People from the middle class, believe in religion, and all its customs. They believe in such nonsense like astrology, and this is not just old folks even educated Indians do. Right from the Ganesha drinking milk episode to looking at horoscopes for marrriage….to vastu shastra and following morons like sri sri ravi shankar, Baba Ramdev, Osho and other phony godmen…. I would say they are more closer to the middle east as far as religiousness is concerned than to progressive societies like Japan and Korea.

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    If Indians follow Vastu, the Chinese follow Fung Shui.. we follow horoscopes, so do the Chinese.. their system is at least as complicated as ours…. even educated, prosperous ones in Hong Kong. And, every society has such godmen/ evangelists. Osho/ Ravi Shankar do not advocate violence or intolerance. Why do they get your goat? Next you will rant about Aurobindo as well..
    I have lived and travelled in most of these “progressive” countries in Asia. If looking at Horoscopes would condemn people to middle-ages, then yes; all of these countries stand condemned. And, you know what? They do not give a damn.
    Belief in religion is a matter of personal choice. As is belief in Astrology. It does not make you turn against your fellow man, does it? If it does, protest.

    Let me quote from Gandhi, commenting on Catherine Mayo:
    “This book is cleverly and powerfully written. The carefully chosen quotations give it the false appearance of a truthful book. But the impression it leaves on my mind, is that it is the report of a drain inspector sent out with the one purpose of opening and examining the drains of the country to be reported upon, or to give a graphic description of the stench exuded by the opened drains. If Miss. Mayo had confessed that she had come to India merely to open out and examine the drains of India, there would perhaps be little to complain about her compilation. But she declared her abominable and patently wrong conclusion with a certain amount of triumph: ‘the drains are India’”
    *****
    Recognise yourself?
    You betray yourself when you say, “Indians at least for now…” or “they are more closer to..” I have seen this disease in many shallow men in our country with a smattering of what passes for English education. You are not an Indian, eh? Or, you are qualitatively superior?

    Bobby Reply:

    Each and every person who is in the business of selling spirituality to the rich and wealthy indeed does get my goat….Violence is not the crime, spreading false ideas should also be strongly opposed I feel.

    I am an Indian and thats precisely why I feel its of utmost importance to speak out against all superstitions in my country…

    Bobby Reply:

    Each and every person who is in the business of selling spirituality to the rich and wealthy indeed does get my goat….Violence is not the only crime, spreading false ideas should also be strongly opposed I feel.

    I am an Indian and thats precisely why I feel its of utmost importance to speak out against all superstitions in my country…

    KK Reply:

    One needs to understand what is culture and relgion separately. Religion do influnce the culture, thats what happened to Indian muslim.

    If somebody does not know to draw a line in between the two, it is foolish to discuss with such person as these are somehow linked. There are religious things which still persist in today’s Japan but in their mind Japanese are no more god fearing.

    Believing astrology or following Baba Ramdev have nothing to do with religion. Otherwise atstrology and Yoga were not getting popular in Europe recetnly. Similar things are still present in Japan and China culture (China is less religious and a nationalistic country).

    [Reply]

    Bobby Reply:

    Sorry, but saying that belief in astrology has nothing to do with religion is like saying that belief in reincarnation has nothing to do with religion…they are both religious beliefs with no scientific grounding.

    KK Reply:

    No, I disagree, I have many christian friends who use astrology in India. As I said its diffcult to separate culture and religion, have you read anywhere in religious text a must for astrology? you can find similar thing in China through the impact of confusism. TANTRA is another part of Hinduism. TANTRA is being practiced by some muslim in India. Anyway its not important and is not a must in religion. Reincarnation is another concept, but its only imagination whereas astrology is statisitic/numerology, have some sort of calculation and logic in it though its not perfect and has many lopholes. thats why you find these days many American/Europea also getting their horoscope.

  • http://yahoomail amirulhoda

    Dear Sam,
    after going through your mail I am convinced you are also one of the america whites who think other than whites all else should be killed. any some for your information. In Spain the Christians killed 10million muslims and 40000 jews. those jews that could get away found refuge in Egypt,Morocco, Jordan,Pallestine of that time, as of today in Spain afestival i going on in which aperson is shown tobe muslin who is forcefully being converted ti Christian. The Christian world afew decades back killed 6 million jews, Hitler was a stout catholic Christisn . so before hitting at others look in your own pants.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    You are welcome …
    Islam killed close to 300 million people in its existence so far…
    So no one can come even close to islamically justified killings so far…

    [Reply]

  • m.malla

    It is an expose` which should put our planners,leaders and those who are at the helm of affairs to shame.All our hopes and aspirations have been belied during past 64 years.Far how long will the increasing number of the poor go on waiting for the dawn of an era when the basic minimum needs would be fulfilled.If the situation does not change,it will be disastrous for all the exploiters.The root cause of this dismal performance is corruption,vote bank politics and defects in electoral system.

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