What the clerics never told you

nbz Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 2:10 am

Zia, You should also have provided links to the various Fatwas issued by the clergy.Also the Hadeed of the Prophet on lesser and greater Jehad could have been quoted.
Anyways, a good start!
Looking forward to a more exhaustive and detailed list of FAQs.

Btw, This page is going to see a lot of hits and comments.

Sana Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 8:17 am

An eye opener.

Zia Haq Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

Very true. There were about 100-odd fatwas against 9/11. Jihad-e-Akbar (the greater jihad of fighting evil inside oneself) was missed. Thanks for pointing out.

nbz Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 2:21 am

Ramachandra,
Came across this. Hope it helps you.
http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/yogendra-yadav-mixes-it-up/

KK Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

Dear Zia Haq,
Your efforts are appreciable, however, there are fundamental things which muslim intelectuals should seriously and urgently address. Intelectuals/rationals fought over a 100 years to fight chirstian religious fundamentalists in Europe to separate religion from the state institutions. Power of Chistrianity is limited to Vartican City when it comes to state affairs, otherwise in no christian dominant country religion interefer with state/political/social affairs. In India, Hindu intelectuals/rationals have been fighting against odd caste systems and successfully abolisehd Sati pratha and many other issues etc. Since independence in India Hindu personal law is totally modernised without taking into account religious groups. Despite many limitations, Hindu, Budist, Sikh have been more or less trying to modernise their religion like Christians, Jewes and other religious people faught against fanaticism in the past (though every religion can still have few number phanatic group like chrisitain missionaries, Bajrang Dal etc but these are not dominant group). It may be partly true but it is not absolutely correct that there is Islamicphobia in western world. There are non-muslim scholars who have gone through holy book, some of the controversial things that you have tried to explain in your other article. But rarely islamic religious people give intelectuals a chance to interpret independently even though they are muslim in a civil society (you can say Islamic intelectuals have failed in front of their phanatic people till now). Unfortunately, in most Islamic country including India (Muslim Personal Law) still religion has the main role in the political system as Sharia law, many of those social rules and regulations were made in about 1500 years ago and in modern sense looks rubbis (like Hindu caste system, remeber our law does not support caste system though socially still it deserves more work). Islamic intelectuals have failed to support open views or criticism on Islam due to strong religious phanatic people in their community unlike Hindu, Budhist, Jewes or Chritian community. Recently pope misquoted on Jewes religion, but unlike burning the embassy (like Danish cartoonist issue), the Jewes community opposed it in more civilized way by directly meeting with the pope. Later on things cooled down between two religion and things were sort out between two religious communities. One of the reasons Islam got caught in modern world as aggressive and radical religion is that Islamic intelectuals/rational became silent on important social issues encouraging fudamentalists or phanatic people to dominate the religion. I will not say Hindu is perfect but the way its evolving it is less dangereous and more acceptable to modern days and recent time to come (thanks to people like Mahatma Gandhi, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Sardar Patel and other). Fortunatly, there were/are few Indian muslim showing hope for the Islam community in India unlike many other countries in the world, like Molana Abdul Kalam and few others. People like you need to be much more stronger …… not for the shake of Hindu -Muslim conflict but for the shake of intelectual – phanatic Muslim conflict, the day you will win over phanatic muslim that day I am sure Islamicphobia will die for ever in western world. Its a fight within Islam and its the biggest challenge for many countires all over the world.
Western world does not have any thing called Budhistphobia or Hinduphobia, so why it should have Islamicphobia if you can able to show the world truth?

Zia Haq Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 7:16 pm

Broadly, your observations are very correct and dispassionate. And I agree. Al Farabi, Ibn Sinna (Avicenna for Europeans) and Ibn Rushd (Aviroes for Equropeans) and al-Ghazali rescued and revived Aristotle and Neo-platonism from obscurity. The doors of ijtihad (reasoning) needs to be opened and indeed a very silent revolution has started.

Neo Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 11:39 pm

The efforts taken by the author are greatly appreciated but I feel things are being unnecessarily complicated & put into this muslim-mould. There are only two supreme divisions: the haves and the have-nots. Most of the problems (projected as Muslim-specific) discussed above such as: sex, divorce, women’s rights, jihad and suicide bombing have more to do with a lack of choice arising out of economic subjugation and sheer poverty rather than conscious choices made by well-educated and rational Muslims like you. These problems are economic in nature rather than political or religious ones. Poverty is the mother of a lot of social ills that are otherwise attributed to Islam. Treat poverty and mix it with a little hope and Islamic terrorism will die its natural death.

Cicero(106-43 BCE) the great Roman philosopher wrote:
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

KK Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Additionally, in Indian context, a Hindu intelectual does not run away when it comes to castism or widow issues rather talks over it, why does Muslim intelectual do not discuss their religious problems openly? Why do Indian muslim watch PakistaniTV? Does Hindu watch Pakistanitv? Why do Indian muslim allegedly show loyal to Pakistan? Does Indian Hindu care more about Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh? You must be knowing conditions of Hindu in those countries. Hindu intelectuals care more about Indian muslim over Hindu in other countries, why? Why for many muslim prioritising religion and nation become a stupid question, where as a Hindu intelectual can confidently chose his/her nation? (I am not saying personally to you, your logic is fine, but look at a normal Indian muslim) Islam has been seriously interfering in state affairs since centuries that’s the only reason why a muslim intelectual fails to say what a Hindu intelectual can confidently say. One fundamental problem, religion takes a first place among muslim all over the world whereas in other religion it can take a minor place. Unless Islamic intelectuals come forward and dominate the phanatic people, Islam will continue to be misunderstood in all over the world.

Bobby Reply:
April 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

I am sorry but you seem to be making statements with zero evidence.

“a Hindu intellectual does not run away when it comes to casteism or widow issues rather talks over it”
some do, just peep into the right wing gang of the VHP supporters

“why does Muslim intellectual do not discuss their religious problems openly?”

you bet they do…one example is right here, on whose post you are commenting, as well as several of them: tasleema nasreen, salman rushdie, javed akhtar, shabana azmi, pervez hoodbhoy…just a few which come to my mind immediately

“Why do Indian muslim watch PakistaniTV?”

what is the evidence that they do in the first place and secondly how does it matter??

“Does Hindu watch Pakistanitv?”

dont know abt pakistani TV, but among newspapers DAWN news is very good and balanced and i read it daily and so do many of my hindu friends

“Why for many muslim prioritising religion and nation become a stupid question, where as a Hindu intelectual can confidently chose his/her nation?”

again what is the evidence that hindus dont? or that muslims do?

“religion takes a first place among muslims all over the world whereas in other religion it can take a minor place.”

I am not sure thats true at all… My feeling is that you are confusing various issues.

KK Reply:
April 17th, 2009 at 3:22 am

Bobby, you need to study more in details: most of my points are based on facts…but there are many issues thats rigth but all these are related one or other way, which are root cause for the problems faced by Muslim Indian. Such as babri masque demolition can not be separated with rise in home grown islamic terrorist in India which is directly related to encourge a small Hindu group to take terrorism (recent one). so issues are related whether we agree or not. Similarly Babri masque has root of historical struggle and communal class since hunder of years.

VHP is not hindu intelectuals: they are Hindu phanatic people:
My concenred was among intelectuals: did you know how many Hindu came forward against Gujrat riot, Babri demolition, etc? At least you can find many articles written in the media by Hindu, rarely we have seen muslim intelecuals condeming misdid (except recent Mumbai one, which was external)carried out by muslim phanatic people. If they do, these people are hardly few and you can count them in fingure. Very few muslim spoke about Godhra. I agree what happened after the Godhra was worst but killing 3000 innocent people in twin tower might kill hunderd of thousands innocent Afgan and Iraqi in the name of terrorism by a more civilized nation, then in a country like India where there are many illitrate, poor and desperate among Hindus riots after Godhra is nor surprising (but should not be tolerated and encouraged).

There are many evidences what I said above: do you know there is called minority right for which Indian media do not expose the truth even if it was initiated by minority group: example: Kandhamal issue. You can also somewhat refer to Godhra incident.

You may not get a second view from muslim scholar on Bari Majid despite it is well established that it was a temple invaded by Baber and Ram is one of the prime prophet (god) in Hindu religion (its a different issue whethere Ram existed as its more on beleive by a religion). You can compare similar issue in other part of the world, like a mosque returned by Jewes to palestine/Muslim people in Jerujelum/palestine as it was the 3rd most religiouly imp place in islam.

There are plenty of good and intelectual muslims, but many of those are silent such as like Javed Aktar, Dillip Kumar, etc, they are more concerned about muslim as community or minority over intelectual unlike Hindu who voiced during Gujrat or Kandhamal riots, of course Hindu do have both side views, (do not equate with Taslima or Rushdie, they are not supported by muslim intelectual world wide unlike their Hindu counter part) . I said, yes we do have few and appreciate Zia, but in my comment I was meaning more to average level, this blog also do not discuss the real problems in the muslim community, for example, most of the things written by Zia in this article can be googled and find it on Islam. It should discuss issues of muslim Indian in intelectual level and not like statements given by Javet Aktar or Dillip Kumar, Saban Azmi etc which are more politically motivated.

Again this does not mean Hindu lack phanatic people. Hindu does have problems which should be and are being criticized by Hindu intelectuals and hope it will reform to cope with modern life (one example, despite being Phanatic, VHP is giving training to lower caste people on Veda, fighting to abolism castism, untouchability, sati pratha, etc, providing education & health to poor tribals, encourging Yoga, Spiritualim, are these not reform of modern Hindu? VHP has started recognising Jesus and Prophet mohammad though its against religious exploitation of poor people in the name of conversion, are these not tolerance? I do not know what are the reform taken on Islam in these years by phanatic muslim like VHP, lets learn from each other. Yes, sufism was once, but does it matter at this moment? I know many Shia, Sunni INTELECTUALS who do not like or encrouage Sufism these days just because they do not belong to that group of Islam.

On Pakitantv issue, do not equate on quality of the show like DAWNTV, my point was more toward loyality, you please do a research and come out with facts and my points would not be inaccurate. Culturally, average Muslim Indians particularly in UP, Delhi, Kashmir, Hyderabad region often had shown loyalty to Pakistan after independence until very recently this is changing a bit (I take pardon from my muslim friends, I do not want to hurt them), take the cricket match issue (one of the reason which brought Hindu-Muslim tension in local level among youth) or cow slaughtering (read a book by a famous well known Indian muslim senior scholar titled “where Indian muslim went wrong” you may get some insight), partition of India (another issue where average muslim has different opinion despite the fact that many muslim scholars have been tring their best to educate their community). Why muslims are not employed in defence and sensitive security assignment in India? I did not want to blame our muslim fellow citizen but I want to share what is under the beneath.

Due to few political groups like SP, Left, etc, muslim as minority is being politically misused as vote banks without bringing any good for muslim Indian rather exposing them communally. One of the biggest mistake politically muslim Indian did was in the past they voted in block to a certain political party exposing themselves more politcally in the communal line. If they would have voted dividedly to all politically parties I beleive they would have communally less exposed and more benefited.

Do you know that the real reason of Left party opposing BJP in the name of secularism is 26% muslim vote present in West Bengal and 25% muslim vote present in Kerala (both state are base of left party). Same for SP in UP 19% muslim vote present in UP. Left, SP etc are casusing more danger to our muslim community than BJP itself. But hardly muslim group realise it. You can cross argue same thing about caste, but its more with candidate than a political party.

On other side I agree with some comments here that its not the right way to bargain in the name of minority, it makes the group more communal. Population of brahmin in India are less than 1/4th of muslim population, out of which half of brahmins are poor (many temple prists are poor), some are very phanatic and castist, but still most brahamins rule the nation as political leaders, industrialist, engg.. doctor, scientist or beurecrat, businessman, pioneers etc. because of their intelectualism, education, knowledge and open mindedness. Even many do not dislike to taste wine or beef despite being brahmins. Indian muslim has a huge population in the nation but the path the average muslim stand now is in the name of minority? (there were few exception in personal level at the top as movie star, scientist, musician etc).

Bobby Reply:
April 17th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

You are simply stating things without giving any evidence. Stating something 1000000 times does not make it a fact…..

“it is well established that it was a temple invaded by Baber and Ram is one of the prime prophet (god) in Hindu religion ”

Firstly I dont think its well established at all…. Secondly such temple destructions were common in the past, even amongst Hindu rulers. It was common for rulers who believed in Shaivism to destroy Vishnu temples and vice-versa.

Secondly and more importantly, Babri Masjid destruction is a simple case of goondaism, no Hindu Muslim issue. What happened before 1947 is part of our history, whether a temple existed there or not is irrelevant. We cannot and should not be in the buisness of “righting” wrongs of the past, because if this was allowed then where will you stop? The upper caste hindus for 1000’s of years have practised untouchablity and have badly treated lower caste hndus, does that mean that we break all the houses of the upper caste people and throw them into some dungeon??

“where there are many illitrate, poor and desperate among Hindus riots after Godhra is nor surprising”

the Gujarat riots are not riots in the first place, it was simply a pogrom, by the government of Gujarat. And yes many hindus have bravely opposed it.

“At least you can find many articles written in the media by Hindu, rarely we have seen muslim intelecuals condeming misdid (except recent Mumbai one, which was external)carried out by muslim phanatic people”

Have you ever read any thing thats written in news papers in the first place? Have you heard of Pervey Hoodbhoy? Tasleema Nasreen? Salman Rushdie? Have you EVER read any columnist in the “THE DAWN” ? Have you heard of the fact that during the Shah Bano case muslim MPs actually resigned from the Rajiv Gandhi ministry, and many Muslim Intellectuals, protested? If you dont see or hear any of these then its because you choose not to…..

“Why muslims are not employed in defence and sensitive security assignment in India? ……..”

yes good question, please try to think about it…

“VHP is giving training to lower caste people on Veda, fighting to abolism castism, untouchability, sati pratha, etc, providing education & health to poor tribals, encourging Yoga, Spiritualim, are these not reform of modern Hindu? VHP has started recognising Jesus and Prophet mohammad though its against religious exploitation of poor people in the name of conversion, are these not tolerance?”

the “jamaat ul-dawaah”, the organization banned recently for alleged involvment with the “Lashkar-e-Tayyaba”, also does some relief work in pakistan. The problem is that all these organizations indeed do some good work, but that is just a garb for the real hatred that they spread. The VHP is nothing more than a hate mongering and intolerant group. The massacre in Gujarat, the shameful happenings in Kandhamal, and more recently in karnataka are some of the examples.

These organizations are like the Nazis in second world war Germany . They are amazingly good at spreading lies. This is why you come across people who believe in the nonsense that the VHP spread….for instance the nonsense you are writing about muslims being not patriotic….By the way how do you know that the average hindu is patriotic….?? Have you gone and measured their patriotism using some weighing machine?? So please try and avoid these kind of stupid statements.

“…..and not like statements given by Javet Aktar or Dillip Kumar, Saban Azmi etc which are more politically motivated. ”

Why are they politically motivated?

“innocent people in twin tower might kill hunderd of thousands innocent Afgan and Iraqi in the name of terrorism by a more civilized nation”

How do you measure civilization? Why do you think that poor people are not civilized or that Iraqis and Afghans are less civilized than Americans? Because they are richer?? Do you think Narendra Modi is more civilized than a slum dweller in mumbai?

I am sorry but I am simply unable to understand how you measure these things and come out with results that you state so confidently, like Hindus are more patriotic and Americans are more civilized? What are the criteria you insist on when you make such comparisons???????

What i understand from your reply is that you like many others have simply believed the propaganda that the fascist organizations have spread. Please go and read books on Nazi germany, you will see that the same kind of lies were spread by the Nazis about Jews, and we all know where it lead to, so we better be careful….

Finally Phanatic is actually spelt “Fanatic”

KK Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

First of all, I am not saying I have evidence, but you are asking yourself for evidence but neither giving any evidence of your own judgement.

What you say about Gujarat, do you have any evidence? Still there are two kinds of reports. What you say about Modi, do you have proof? These are other forms of propoagenda which someother might claim. “It was common for rulers who believed in Shaivism to destroy Vishnu temples and vice-versa” do you have evidence for it? (If I say its a propagenda?)

I am sure, you do not know the problem of Kandhamal except what was shown to you by national media, which was also another kind of political propagenda. Do you know its origin was as fight between two tribes as well castes which became later on communal? do not you think christian missionary is also a fanatic group like VHP, Taliban, etc, in fact many of those foreigners working for missionries in India violate law & VISA rules as tourist VISA does not allow to involve in religious activites, why to defend them, just for minority shake like our media do due to legal reasons and politicans do for vote banks?

Do you know what archeologist says about Ayodhya temple? Do you need a proof that Ram is not warshiped as god in Hindu religion? What sort of knowledge you have about religion?
Do you need how religion is defined intelectually? In my opinion, it is just a beleive. Did prophet mohammad had any evidence on god? Neither Hindu or Chstrinity provides any concrete one. Is the explanation provided in Koran not similar to one given in Hindu or Chrisitian religioous text? Are there no similarities in Hindu, Islam and Christian? All religions are similar in many angles except that people who practice one do not have sufficient knowledge of another.

You are not at all well aware about history, civilization, modernity and religion (be it Islam or Hindu) and mixing two kinds of thoughts. You bring a topic saying American or Iraqi who are more civilized, its a different issue what you understand as civilization. Take a world wide view on Iraqi, Americans and Afgans and do not try to impose your own view. I do not know how much practical experince you have with them but you should take a general world wide view on each country over what we think about it. I do not mean Iraqi are less civilized but I meant America is considered as a modern and civilised society in terms of human rights all over the world (they are or are not is a question of debate, but I am less worried about it at this point).

I repeat again do not compare with Rushide & Taslima whom even intelectuals muslim do not approve denouncing them as writer working in the interest of westerners against Islam, you will find similar people in Hindu and other religions too. They did not contribute anything towards the betterment of Islam or muslim people rather oftended islam in western world.

I am sorry I have poor english, but you do have poor knowlege about issues. I never defend what happened in Gujarat, its a shame, but do you have prove that it was pogrom? I repeat again I never said VHP is good or bad, but I said these are the fanatic groups who are also involved in modernisation of religion. Now give any reform in Islamic religion taken in past decade? Do not say releif work, madrassa etc is a reform which RSS, VHP also do. I gave exactly reform in cateism by VHP which is fundamental (remember still catesim/touchability is religiously acceptable, visit a remote village in India, you will still find, but VHP is working againt this fundamental issue to reform). You will find similar thing in Christianity. How many of fanatic islamic groups are working in such fundamental religious issue towards reforming Islam ? For example on women right. If you defend it again SAYING THERE WAS NO PROBLEM WITH WOMEN RIGHT IN ISLAM AND ITS A PROPAGENDA, then please stop the discussion here, I do not have enegy to teach you modernity, human/women rights etc in modern sense here).

I never said Hindu are more patriotic, but I said many common muslim Indian (not targeting whole community, we do have good muslim Indian) were loyal to Pakisatn over India (giving cricket match/pakistantv as an example, this was even expressed by few muslim intelectuals from India) whereas Hindu Indians were never loyal to other countries except India (few exception is acceptable). Sweet distribution and celebration when Pakistan won cricket match against India in Jamai……….., what did it show to the fellow citizens of India, do you need evidence here? Does not it mean religious attachement does gets priority over nationalism? Now you might have got some clue why muslim Indian rarely get employed in defence? Any nation has the right to ask for loyality from its all citizens irrespective of caste, creed, religion etc, India should not be different from it (remeber that such loyality could be changing recently). Either you are ignorent or trying to avoid such issues intentionally. You may say those muslim are less educated and learned, I agree to that point and that was my point of discussion that intelectual muslim community should educate those people (where I refer to VHP despite being fanatic it works against fundamental problem in Hinduism)

At the end, unfortunetely you are arguing to defend an issue emotionally knowing well that such thing is hard to prove due to political and religious sensitivity. I am less worried whether you belong to a particular community or not (by hiding your identity or not). You have the right to do that. But I am sorry I am not here for an emotional debate rather interested how our religions, be it Hindu or Islam or Chritianity could be reformed fundamentally to cope with modernity to keep peace and prosperity in the society. I see may such steps being taken by Christian (still there are few issues like use of Condom in Africa), Hindu (still there are issues like cateism in social level), Jewes etc but rarely see in Islam, if there are in Islam please educate me but do not say social work is a fundamental religious event and reform.

If you feel I am targeting muslim only, you are wrong. I will be happy to have similar discussion on Hindu as well.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

“Are there no similarities in Hindu, Islam and Christian? All religions are similar in many angles except that people who practice one do not have sufficient knowledge of another.”

Yes, they are all similar. that was what I was telling you all along…..

“Do you need how religion is defined intelectually? In my opinion, it is just a beleive. Did prophet mohammad had any evidence on god? Neither Hindu or Chstrinity provides any concrete one. Is the explanation provided in Koran not similar to one given in Hindu or Chrisitian religioous text?”

yes they are the same explanations. and thats why they are all bogus and nonsensical.

“when Pakistan won cricket match against India in Jamai……….., what did it show to the fellow citizens of India”

If “our fellow citizens of india” are so dumb to judge loyality to a nation by which cricket team people support, then god help this country!!!! Tomorrow you will say that if anyone thinks that “Angelina Jolie” is more good looking than “Aishwarya Rai” then he/she is a traitor???????

“Any nation has the right to ask for loyality from its all citizens irrespective of caste, creed, religion etc, India should not be different from it”

All hindu organizations like the VHP and Bajrang Dal will fail the “loyality test” straight away. Because none of them owe allegiance to the indian constitution and want to convert India into a Hindu Rashtra. How different is it to Fundamental muslim organizations wanting to impose Sharia in India????

“If you feel I am targeting muslim only, you are wrong. I will be happy to have similar discussion on Hindu as well.”

I am not interested, but good to know that you are not “targeting muslims only”, though that was the impression you were giving….

KK Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

Bobby,
Few additions:
Ram mandir issue did not start in a day or month. It has been an issue since hundred years, the day it was (in your opinion allegedly) invaded. In recent memory, it started in 1934, VHP included it in 1964 and BJP in 1980s. If Hindu would not have forgetten such issues, India would have been ruled by Jansangh/BJP since 1970s, isn’t it? To summarize, India has been a battle field for religious fighting since centuries (with Isalm since 8th centruries) and it is continuing to do so. India was too large, religiously and spiritually more advanced than contemporary other countries for which hindu could resist strongly against Islamic invasion (similar resistance against Islam did happen in Spain as well) unlike what happened in Malyaisa, Indonesia etc. As Islam could not spread fully in India in those period, it continued to be an issue since those days. Until british arrived, fighting between Islamic and Hindu scholars continued in India. When India was ruled by british practically Islamic rulers were supressed and so was the religious conversion to Islam. In post-independence era, Pakistan was created in religious ground bringing more problems to preset days India as fundamental Hindu did not accept it: “they felt when Pakistan was made then India should be a Hindu nation or if India was secular then Pakistan would not have been created”. In the mean time due to religious affiliation loyality of many (not all) muslim, laregly fundamentalists, in India towards Pakistan made Hindu unhappy (Islam brought arabic culture, language etc to Indian continent, converted muslims in both India and Pakistan shared the same language, religion, culture, some family bond too, and interest, largely due to Sharia law unlike Hindu in India who had distrinct root). This loyality towrds Pakistan gave strength to fundamentalist groups like Shiv Sena, VHP, Bajrang Dal etc to encrourage ill educated Hindu against muslim and the cycle continued by involvement of SIMI, and other islamic group (Pakistani diplomacy and Kashmir issue had also palyed roles). You have to take your position in the circle before bombarding any new thoughts on this subject.

What happened in Gujarat and Malegaon is shame, that does not mean what has been happening in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore etc are justified either.

Like evil saying: if one can forget what happened before 1947 then other would also able to forget what happened in Dec 6, 1992 or 2002. Hope people will understand in both the communities what to do and what not to do for betterment of the nation.

SKS Mumbai Reply:
April 20th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

Bobby,
When I saw your responses towards the weekend, I had planned to come back with a response to everything you said.

But by chance I went through your previous posts and realized that my response would not do much other than motivate you to come back with your standard analysis for all problems such as:

1. All religions are bad
2. There are hindu terrorists what about Gujarat, Ayodhya etc.
3. All this is politics and nothing to with religion etc..

I. will give you a better punch line (you will find them written on trucks and auto rickshaws) : “SABKA MALIK EK” !

If you want to categorize all of them as merely political then let it be said that religions are also “political”, more so, the one we are discussing here.

My limited intellectual capacity cannot respond to the “Profound insights” you have presented and hence this is my last response. Not much just a few: :

You said: ” Koran is also historical account and not an instruction manual”

I think there are two dimensions to this one, what is the nature of the content? and what is the real life status with the followers. As for the later your point is evidently wrong based on what most people know.

As regards Koran being historical, I heard that Koran exists eternally with GoD in a Golden (or guarded, not sure) tablet in the heaven and was revealed word by word to Prophet. Yes the mother version. May be I am wrong, but someone more knowledgeable can explain if Muslims believe so or not.

Sorry, the context of violence in Gita is just not the same as in Koran, it was “war with infidels” to raise the word of Allah.

Second about Gujarat being a state sponsored progrom and hence same as the terror I was focussing on.

Gujarat was a local conflict between two communities arising due to a local incident and we know where it started. If it was state sponsored progrom then can you explain 250 odd hindu deaths and some 40,000 in relief camps. Now the corresponding number for Muslims was certainly higher but and yes it was extremely unfortunate but existence of some ratio is clear proof that it was not a one sided progrom. Let me reiterate it still was horrendous and law must punish the perpetrators on both sides accordingly and there are signs that many (not all) are being held to account.
At the most one would term it as “disproportionate” ( heard some thing similar in recent past??)

The threat I am talking about is Global and is not related to what was done to them but to what you believe in. Therefore we can’t treat them the same unless one agrees with great philosophy of “Sabka Malik Ek”.

Full Stop from my side.

Sam Reply:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm

Why should India be secular ?
Why not become Hindu nation ?

I see some muslims and Pakistanis who want Pakistan to be Islamic, but want India to be secular.

I think they are hypocrites..

Bobby Reply:
April 24th, 2009 at 11:19 pm

Sam…get a life!

Sam Reply:
May 15th, 2009 at 5:58 am

Can you answer me on this

” some muslims and Pakistanis who want Pakistan to be Islamic, but want India to be secular.

I think they are hypocrites”

What do you say ?

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 9:56 pm

Dear kk,

Nice story….. You should seriously try for a job as a script writer in Bollywood. Unfortunately for you reality is not so “black and white” and comes in various shades of grey. The way you are representing Indian history shows the level to which you have gulped down the nonsense that the VHP are sprouting.

It was never a war between MUSLIMS and HINDUS as you are claiming. People are not such monoliths and have much more complex identities. We have a proffesional identity, a caste identity, a linguistic identity and even within hinduism, we have many sub religious ideinties. Its not “Bad Muslims conquered Good Hindus and then killed every body”. There have been many different rulers in various parts of india, they have been muslims as well as hindus, and they have fought against as well as for each other at different points of time, and not always as muslims versus hindus. There are many more reasons for going to war. There could be practical considerations due to which some rulers take help of others, independent of their religious affiliations.

Also Islam didnot come to india only through conquests, it has come into india through trade as well through message of sufism. But ofcourse it would not serve your purpose to understand these complexities. I suggest you read some serious history…I can suggest you some good books by good and notable historians, so that the brain washing that you have undergone can be undone.

KK Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

Seems without knowing indepth about the neither muslim nor hindu you are trying hard.

Loyality does not come from cricket, sure: try to do a reseach, what I have given to you is from a private study carried out by a muslim in India (I can not share the name unfortunately).

Neither it about Joli nor about Rai, its about what the society is. Out of 100, 50 may choose Joli but not the whole community will chose, isn’t ?

Second, am I telling SEMI or Laksher pass those loyality test?

Your poor knowledge about the subject matter does not need more explanation, by the way many of my thoughts about muslim Indian are from a muslim intelectuals who are my good friends. I learn Islam and problems with islam from them.

What I dislike about your judgement is: when someone is saying there is a problem somwhere in muslim community, you are saying there is a problem in the sky as well …… who is denying that ….. here we are discussing about problems in Islam and muslim India. You can not compare chalk and banana.

You should compare average muslim with avergae Hindu or VHP with SIMI etc, it will make no sense by comparing average muslim with VHP or SIMI with avergae Hindu.

Looks like you are taking it personally without understanding the discussion. Please read histrory on Islam, how it spreaded all over the world and present problems associated with Islam (not only India, all over the world). There are many good things about Islam, but you will understand what I am saying more clearly, we can continue the discussion after that.

You can have your own impression on me that does not bother.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 10:33 pm

“ou should compare average muslim with avergae Hindu”

MORAL OF THE STORY…….THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AVERAGE MUSLIM AND AVERAGE HINDU MENTALITY.

Atul Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

Dear Protagonists, Antagonists, Aethists and Priests (and oh, by the way, Zia too!)

I just had to elbow in while the warriors caught their breath over the weekend!!

O warriors, believe what you must , and say what you must, but please be respectful to Zia’s blog objective – He is trying to take the phobia out of Islamophobia.

And what are we doing? Making this a platform for spewing out. Its almost as if we were straining at the leash, just waiting for an opportunity. So much for education!!

How come no one has asked a question like “Zia, can you also tell me what view does Islam hold on hospitality, interest on loans, on militancy, or community living “etc. etc. etc.?

Do we want to really understand Islam, or do we want to turn this post into a metaphoric coffee house, showing off our debating prowess?

Have any of these 70 plus comments done anything to further your knowledge or understanding of Islam?

Ancient Roman villas used to have a vomatorium. A handy facility during the orgy of feasting. At this rate, our handiwork will soon require a “Bileatarium” .

Please, please, please, can we get back on track?

Zia Haq Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

Dear Atul: Thank you for these comments and understanding what my point of view. you have shown the way: let’s not talk at one another but talk to one another.

KK Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 2:22 am

some of your points are right on how Islam came to India,

do not try to mix problems in hidu and islam, do not behave like a politicians who milks in the name of secularism,

Hindu king did not welcome traders to rule their country. neither Islam came from heaven to india.

Islam did have internal problem like sufism, shia, sunni (some of which still continue till date like Hindu caste) but thats not the focus of discussion.

was not islam in India also due to many mugul soldiers who married hindu women (forefully) and converted them to islam. lower caste people also were converted to islam due to social reasons,

there was no problem, but what could be danger is you are trying to defend certain truth which can be exploited by fundamentalist. many of the questions you did not answer but confused.

tell me your history book you have read! I am still not finding a good one on such controversial issues, may be you are trying to hide facts on bari masque. I was expecting you will supply me evidence at leats what you have told (though I am failing as per you and repeating 1000000 times baseless things).

Do not fool me:

by the way:
…….THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AVERAGE MUSLIM AND AVERAGE HINDU MENTALITY.
its not a bad sentence …. but am I talking about mentality? This is how you understand history and manipulate as you like!

Bobby Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 11:26 am

“…..but am I talking about mentality?”

actually what are you talking about? because you are talking in different tones in different mails. In one mail you come across as a completely brainwashed guy with silly views like indian muslims watch pakistan channels and cheer for pakistani cricketers so they are traitors. Then in another mail you say that both hinduism and islam say the same thing….then in yet another mail you seem to suggest that all of indian history is about muslims killing and converting hindus, and then that is followed by another mail where you claim that maybe thats not the full truth!!!!! SO what are you saying???

KK Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

you go through your own positing: am I blaming the community or talking about loyality of some people: on loyality please do have a research since independence on Indian muslim, then post your reply. Do not confuse without knowing the community and make statement what you feel like Rai/Joli on the basis of emotion.

Loyality is a fact: not by Hindu but muslim scholar were trying to educate their community often acknowledged it (other ex: there was flase propagenda in large part of muslim community in India that Nehru was responsibe for partition, whereas muslim scholar have often pointed out that it was more due to Jenah and its a miconception among uneducated & large part of muslim, even there were myth among large part of muslim community about muslim population before partition, now do not argue what fundamental Hindus think). I think you have not studied muslim Indian in intelectual point of view and just going through an impression like other politicians go in the line of advertising themselves as secular for their own vote bank and by manipulating facts.

Still you have not mentioned the reference HISTORY BOOK

KK Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

“actually what are you talking about? because you are talking in different tones in different mails. In one mail you come across as a completely brainwashed guy with silly views like indian muslims watch pakistan channels and cheer for pakistani cricketers so they are traitors. Then in another mail you say that both hinduism and islam say the same thing….then in yet another mail you seem to suggest that all of indian history is about muslims killing and converting hindus, and then that is followed by another mail where you claim that maybe thats not the full truth!!!!! SO what are you saying???”

BY THE WAY I HAVE NOT CHANGED THE TONES, BUT YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD IT.

STILL YOU ARE ARGUING THAT SUPPORTING CRICKET IS NOT LOYALITY ……….. CRICKET CAN NOT BE A LOYALITY TEST ITS TRUE ……. “HOWEVER MUSLIM INDIAN WERE SUPPORTING PAKISTAN TEAM DUE TO LOYALITY” …. THATS WHERE YOU FAIL TO UNDESTAND AS YOU LACK SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE MUSLIM INDIAN OR YOU ARE HIDING THE FACT.

ON MUSLIM KILLING HINDU, AGAIN READ MY POST AND UNDERSTAND. I REPEAT YOU DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE, THATS THE GAP BRINGING THIS DIFFERENCE.

YOUR KIND OF THOUGTS WILL NOT HELP SOCIETY BUT MAKE FUNDAMENTAL GROUP STRONGER AS THEY CAN ALSO MANIPULATE THE FACT THEY WAY YOU ARE DOING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST.

varsha Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 5:52 pm

also, U S universities have centres of Islamic studies, and newspapers have FAQs, not because they have any respect for Islam (or for any religion for that matter)..I think they do it out of fear mostly……Know thy enemy and all that

Zia Haq Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

Here are some points to seriously consider:

1. Educated Muslims don’t stop being Muslims.

2. Muslims don’t consider religious texts as relics.

3. US universities don’t have centres of Islamic studies because they consider Islam to be an enemy. These centres did not come up suddenly after 9/11. I don’t know if you know this, but there’s a big difference between US politics and US university education. A redeeming feature of US universities is that they are fiercely independent in their discourses.

4. Why what the Texts say or don’t say are important for Muslims is a very unsophisticated argument. You are actually trying to ask why should the Texts be important for Muslims at all. That is not the right way to open the critical door. That is not the right discussion. Why is the Gita important for Hindus?

5. You have a pre-concieved notion about Muslims. It is very important to say that suicide bombing is un-Islamic. Why it is important to say so, I leave it to you to find out.

6. There are problems with the way Muslims have interpreted the Quran. There is a difference between religion and religious knowledge. Religon is divine, according to Muslim faith, but knowledge of Quran and how it is applied is not divine. Religious knowledge is human developed. This not my own view that I am coming up with. Many Muslims are calling for a shift from a literalist reading of the Quran to a liberatory reading.

7. The problem starts when you start essentialising the Quran. I am saying there can be more than one way of reading the Quran and we need to re-read it. I am against treating the Quran as an absolute text. That betrays its very meaning. That is why it is not possible to say “this is bad about Islam” or “that is good about Islam”. The Texts don’t change but the Contexts do.

Sanjay Reply:
April 14th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

Since You agree that the doors of ijtihad (reasoning) needs to be opened. Why dont you take step forward for doing the same. Why are u still alienating yourself and not joining the mainstream. All your 3 blogs are from a Muslim perspective. Its good that you have raised some point as to how people are doing crime in name of religion. You will agree the need of the hour is to curb all injustice done in the name of relgion be it any religion in any country. Lets work together for Humanity, Peace, Brotherhood and Spreading Love. Lets oppose extremist who are there to divide people in name of religion,caste,creed,sex,nation etc.

Mauryan Reply:
April 13th, 2009 at 11:23 pm

Zia,

I appreciate your efforts in trying to enlighten others about Islam. In a spiritual sense, Islam places the aspirant directly in communication with God. I follow Hindu beliefs. Every religion has a lot of non-sensical things and interpretations.

What is needed is for sensible Muslims to fight the lunatics who have hijacked your religion and have become very powerful. This is like the Nazis or European slave traders taking over Christian beliefs and twisting them to suit their needs. But they underwent a renaissance and opposition came from within. Likewise, Muslims of today have to start fighting their enemies within more. We do not see this happening. Instead moderate people like you spend your time explaining to others that Islam has a lot of good things. We know it does and we respect it. But you must, instead of directing your defense towards non-Muslims, direct it towards the militant organizations who have hijacked your religion and its reputation. In today’s world, Muslims are looked at with suspicion and this is unfortunate. This is due to the deeds of some people and not all.

I’d like to know if Muslims in countries like India and others will stage peaceful protests against militant Islam and even take up resistance against them. If they did that, it will bring in a lot of support and will pave way for peace.

God bless!

Zia Haq Reply:
April 14th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

This reply pertains to these last lines of your response:

“I’d like to know if Muslims in countries like India and others will stage peaceful protests against militant Islam and even take up resistance against them. If they did that, it will bring in a lot of support and will pave way for peace.”

Reply:
Have you ever heard of the Darul Uloom fatwa against terror? Do remember reading anywhere about the protests brought out by Muslims after 26/11 in Mumbai?

Also, militant Muslims or militant Islam?

varsha Reply:
April 14th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

starting from point no.4

I have met any number of hindus for whom the gita is not important at all( i myself am a prime example), and behind closed doors with friends, they are openly critical of it.

The same is with christians, they also openly disagree with a few things that are written in the bible..

however, I have never heard any muslim (my personal experience) criticize what is written in Islam……on facing criticism from the rest of the world, they say that islam has been misinterpreted by their clergy or uneducated people….

This is exactly why i am commenting on your post…….my question is very simple ….according to you- is there nothing in the Quran that is worth criticizing? Is there nothing that doesnt gel with you?

if you find something clearly written in religious texts that you disagreee with- what would you do? would you obey the religion or your own beliefs?

I am asking you only what you would do, and not all muslims

Bobby Reply:
April 15th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

I know some one from my friend circle who is openly atheist…..and more famously Javed Akhtar is some one who comes to mind….openly Atheist.

Bobby Reply:
April 15th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Just had a quick check after writing my earlier reply:

look at this link…. a lecture by Javed Akhtar in “India Today conclave”. Here he mentions his lack of religious beliefs, and its a nice speech by the way….

http://www.javedakhtar.com/itc.htm

varsha Reply:
April 17th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

“people who believe in faith dont question God………………………………over literalist reading”

I have a huge problem with this…..How can you question God, when you dont even know what God said or wants? Unless you believe that what is written in the Quran, Gita, Bible is actually the word of God, written either in his/her own writing or by someone who had direct access to God….

And what exactly do you mean by liberatory reading……Can I take a rule/guide book of any institution and then interpret it according to my own requirements? then what is the point of having that book anyway?

One more question……if it all boils down to interpretation…..then who is to say which interpretation is more correct? The conservatives might say their interpretation is better, the liberalists will say theirs is superior, Each group will try to impose their own interpretation wherever they have power (which is exactly the problem religions is facing right now because nobody seems to be able to convince the other group that they have understood the text better)..

Religious institutions have wielded immense power and created havoc in the world in the past centuries…They manipulated the innocent belief people had in God, and made them behave in violent ways towards others…..Are you trying to tell me that you can now read the same set of writings and come up with a completely different conclusion??

I am biased in favour of Atheism, everyone is in favour or against some belief or the other, thats human nature…Rather than wasting time on interpreting old texts, just accept that they have severe limitations.

varsha Reply:
April 17th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

thanks Bobby,

Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi are good examples

Arvind Reply:
May 17th, 2009 at 12:16 am

Well sorry to interrupt in the middle especially when I am only half way through…I find the comments section of this article more interesting than the article itself. I didnt want to comment on anybody else comments from the above, because i believe each of you were correct in your own right.

But in section I think Zia asks not to be “biased”. I wish to ask who isnt biased? Zia is biased with Islam, Varsha is biased about atheism, every body is biased about something. The whole world is biased. This argument is taking place only because all of us are biased with our view ponts. If no one is biased, I see no scope for this argument at all.

And in some places I find Zia’s arguments hold no steam like where he says
“It is very important to say that suicide bombing is un-Islamic. Why it is important to say so, I leave it to you to find out.”
I am unable to grab the context of this.I think Varsha’s question was not ” is suicide bombing Islamic or un Islamic?” I think it is more like “Is suicide bombing humane” enough to justify even if (though it is not) called for in any religious text under any circumstances?

And further i see no answer to Varsh’s question “what exactly do you mean by liberatory reading”?

Personally I have an inner conflict with myself. I wish to describe myself as an atheist, but in my heart I know that there is some higher power that was responsible for creation.It might not even have human form but how else would you account for everything around us. SO called rationalists would give one word “science” as the answer. But it isnt sufficient.But I also believe in a higher power doesnt warrant for religious text claiming to be voices of gods and angels etc…If any thing at all I find the Ramayana a good Sci-fi moral classic and the bible a big moral science book.

Swami Vijnanananda Saraswati Reply:
April 14th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

Zia Saab,
Great.
But think on the planes of social reforms – structural benefit to the needy sector – opening up resources with a whole lot of understanding towards – responsibility comes with rights – etc.
and most of all – i am convinced islam needs institutions simialr to the kinds of Rama Krishna mission, Chinmaya mission, Amritanandamayee Mission, etc. which r identified with hindu groups but serve Humanity at large and NOBODY can dare to call them communal – since they maintain a CLEAN IMAGE – and TRANSPARENT WORK PATTERN.
THanx

Swami Vijnanananda Saraswati Reply:
April 16th, 2009 at 8:24 pm

I Know I wouldn’t get an Answer on this, But beleive me – the Community needs to think on these lines…..

Bobby Reply:
April 17th, 2009 at 11:03 pm

Have you heard of “aga khan foundation ” , “edhifoundation” started by Abdul Sitar Edhi , “CPS International” by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, to name just a few??????

“I Know I wouldn’t get an Answer on this, But beleive me – the Community needs to think on these lines….”

Please stop writing in such patronising tones, especially when you dont know what you are talking about.

KK Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 6:34 pm

the answer is 100%.

Histrorically, dalits were considered as untouchable but human though they were exploited by upper castes. Despite being dalit, they had all the rights like other humans in a village, separate bathing ghat, house, barber etc, only aspect is they can’t share it with other upper castes because of social reasons. Its similar to today’s India, when a rich can afford Taj, a poor could only footpath for economic reasons, they do not share the same. By the way people who do not know about caste, it was existing in Euprope, Japan and other Asian countries too, though in India it lasted too late and untouchable was serious concerned.

In Hindu, there are many mythological story based on dalits to bring social justice for them, such as Lakshmi took her lunch in one of her devotee’s place who was dalit and finally the dalit was warshiped as great devotee.

In modern days, dalits are allowed in temples, shared other things equally in cities, towns etc. In villages life has improved dramatically. In many villages I visisted dalit and upper caste share the same bathing ghat today. I was taught by at least 10 dalit teachers with whom uppercaste people share food. Today dalits realize their rights (thanks to Mhatma Gandhi, BSP, and Ambedkar). Castism has been almost vanished in urban life in India by today. In remote rural pocket still there are some concerns, but no more acute. Dalits are more powerful politically now (UP has a dalit CM not by quota but by democratically elected by all people including brahmins and upper castes). I have at least 10 known evidence where upper castes people married to dalit in rural pockets without bringing any tension. Some hindu religious groups like RRS, VHP and Bajran Dal are playing important role to abolish caste/dalit system, opening schools and health care system for dalit and tribals, giving them religious training etc. It has changed life of dalit dramatically, on the other hand such social upliftement by fundamental Hindu groups is polarizing them religiously too, such as Kandhamal issue where dalits were communaally more active than upper castes.

But there are threat by few fundamental upper caste Hindu who discriminate dalits but they also considered muslim worst to dalit (such people are ill informed and socially unacceptable but in the world we can have both Osama in on side and Kalam on the other hand, so Hindu is not an exception). Statistically this number is decreasing day by day.

When somebody says dalits were not considered as human, its technically motivated (such word is laregely used by missionary in India to convert dalits to other religion). In fact dalits were considered as human but had different social regulations. In modern sense socially not sharing things in the same platform looks inhuman but in many Asian/African countries women are always treated inhumanly in western eyes, that does not mean women are not treated as human. I do not want to mention here about Islam, sombody might drag different conclusion. Positive thing is such discrimination is being abolished in Hindu society and Hindu personal law in that respect is modernised and appreciable when it comes to dalit rights.

nbz Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:26 am

SKS Mumbai,

I don’t know if you have heard about Ijtihad. It is the reinterpreting of Religious sources (Quran and Hadees ) again and again, so that they are more relevant with the current times. Hence when talking of “Brother” some clerics are of the notion that this should apply to all of human kind since “Universal brotherhood of Man” is something that the Quran stresses again and again.

Kindly try and look at things with a more open mind. Looking for things and interpreting them such that it reinforces your bigoted prejudice is a disgrace. I too can quote things from religious texts and show some religion as regressive. but does it serve any purpose??
It only shows your bias.

Victor Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am

There is only one simple problem, if you keep looking back to justify modern values using anachronistic texts, you always land up in situations where your reasoning will turn to fallacy, your sincerety to hypocricy. There is lot in these texts which don’t need reinterpretation but rejection. The values we hold in 21st century are lot different from 7th century . Take a life and move on.

Pankaj Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

“Universal brotherhood of Man”…………..when everyone follows Islam then universal brotherhood will be achieved.

All doors to “Ijtihad” were closed long time back. If someone critizise some aspects of Islam then there are demonstrations world wide. Example: Killing of dutch filmmaker.

MF hussain painting about nude godess that’s called art.

Double standards.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:10 am

very sorry, I mis understood your points….

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:14 am

however, what you say about Islam is true of every other religion also. For instance Hindu texts explicitly sanction the caste system in many places. so the problem is not JUST ISLAM, its all religion actually.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:38 am

“there are theories, that after the last ice age in 8-10,000 years BC, people from india migrated to central asia and west asia. they could have come back again later.”

these “scientific” theories are expounded by “great scientists” of the Sangh Parivar.

“until then, the west asian migration theory, is still a theory.”

the west asian migration theory is “just” a theory, just as evolution is “just” a theory. Most proffesional historians though seem to think that there is “overwhelming evidence” for “just” this theory

Sam Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:40 am

The question is still valid…

It is legal in many countries like Afghanistan, Saudi, ……
that a mulsim leaving islam can be put to death.

Does Zia support it or not….

Simple question….

I want to get rid of those laws, if possible. So I need people to support me. People like zia can write or advocate to get rid of such laws, or if not that is fine too. But we need to know.

Simple..

Bhagavad-Geetha does not talk about Caste system.
i have no problem is saying that I do not birth based support caste system.

Sam Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:47 am

Bobby,
I do not want to get diverted or distracted with other thing which i have no knowledge.

You could be right and i may be wrong, so i will leave it at that point.

(all i saying is, with new data, and new techniques some of the older facts will get a renewed look. It could be history based, assumed scientific theories…anything.
With DNA analysis lot of new things are being rediscovered and re-interpreted.)

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 1:27 am

Sam,

I dont want to get into these other aspects either. But you see, thats how science works. Nothing can be 100% disproved ever in Science. At most you can give probabilities. Most Historians today believe that the east to west migration is far less probable than the west to east migration, given current evidence.

However they way you present it is as if the evidence for both theories are on equal footing, which is simply not the case.

coming to your point about the Bhagwad Gita. Well The Mahabharata and also the Ramayana have instances of Caste Biases, as we know very well. In fact in the Bhagwad Gita, Krishna also tells Arjuna that
“people come to god only through me”….. intolerance???

The point is there is not much point in arguing that one set of religious beliefs are better than the other. because they are all equally rubbish….

Sam Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 6:31 am

Bobby,
I am open to having another discussion on science, migration patterns, caste system….etc.

You may have legitimate points, which i like to understand and discuss.

But at the same time, can we just stick to just these three questions I requested.
If you have answers please let me know.
If not we will wait for Zia.

this request is for here only (in response to my writings).

Please write about your thoughts and ideas to sam_sc95051@yahoo.com

SKS Mumbai Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 8:46 am

Nbz

To begin with you did not reply to the straight question Inder asked

May I know the generous Koran sections where universal brotherhood is preached.

How do you conclude that I have misinterpreted the quoted Hadith? I said it is unambiguous. Prove it is anything else

The Moral equivalence theory that every religion is equally bad is plain obfuscation. They are not. When you talk about the violence of Gita or Mahabharat most of them are historical accounts not instructions unlike in your Koran. Gita does have instructions also for violence when faced with injustice or Adharma, not for tuning non believers into believers. I don’t think you understand the concept of Dharma in this context, but let me try, It is not Believers vs. Others. So clearly it is not that all are same, but for a moment even if we accept that they were, it is not adherents of Gita who put bombs in markets, trains because Gita said so.
So yes, may be Hinduism does not propagate universal brotherhood as Bobby proclaimed but so what?

Let me also give you a bit of my background. I am about 37 yrs old. Out of this for 23 yrs I have ranted against the VHPs and BJPs. When Babri incident happened I was in an Engg college and I had such bitter arguments with my closest pals that we stopped talking for a few months, same with some of my relatives. I hated Advani and Modi as much as any other so called secular Indian. This even after having seen communal riots when I was 16 yrs, started by you know who. Although the only reason behind that riot was clearly the inability of a community to accept that others can also worship their Gods, not the usual secular **** that riots are engineered by politicians for their benefit. (They do have a role but that by itself is neither sufficient nor the necessary condition). But for me the lesson of the riots was not to start hating a community, I told everyone who could hear that this is the time when only hope is Gandhi. .(Although I know there are many who do not consider Gandhi to be a saint who believed in non violence and no I am not talking about VHP, RSS and their ilk only.)

(I am not writing all this to prove that I am secular, because I know I am. But the purpose of writing this background is just let you know that I do not come from your favorite punching bag comprising of Hindu fundamentalists. )

But what happened ? First there was blasts in Sarojini Nagar Delhi, the Local trains in Mumbai and the 26/11. Now I know their perpetrators and apologists will provide a 1000 reasons as the cause although professing at the same time that this was dastardly act. That was when I started reading about religion and this is where I am today. Oh My Prejudices and Biases are so disgusting right !!!!

But I am not bothered about these causes, what I am bothered about everyday is whether I will return home alive or not? Whether my 4 year old son, my wife will return home safely or not? And I am not going to listen to any ****** underlying cause theory, as nothing I repeat nothing that I and my family have done which justifies our being subjected to such daily threat. It is a social issue, may be a national or whatever but most of all it is personal for me. I just hate to be watching my back all the time whether in a train, or bus or mall or a theater and no it is not because of multiple causes it is only because of a single cause.

To compare VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal to SIMI, LeT, JeM etc is absolute ****. There is no comparison none whatsoever. To keep on talking about Ayodhya and Gujarat as the cause is disgustingly naive. Gujarat post Godhra was a Progrom and Godhra was an accident? Oh no ! it were the Karsevaks who were asking for it as they fought with some vendors at the station and one of them even tried to abduct a girl? You see . So it is only fair that they along with their families and others were burnt alive. Equivalence oh yes!

I also tried to think what if I were not a Hindu, but say a Christian or an atheist or a Jew, would my views be different. No no way I would still be subject to those threats.

So, please I may be prejudiced, biased or whatever you might want to claim, But I am not planning to kill you for that, or for not being a believer in my faith and certainly not because Gita or some scared scriptures asked me to do that.

So, Please stop this justification and moral equivalence business. The threat exists and is waiting for its next set of non believing lambs.

PS: Some thing I did notice but did not respond to. The Standard Operating Procedure, When somebody asks a difficult question he becomes prejudiced and based right. But the answers still do not come.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 10:45 am

Dear sks ,

“When you talk about the violence of Gita or Mahabharat most of them are historical accounts not instructions unlike in your Koran.”

NOT TRUE. The instructions in the Koran are also historical accounts. The Koran is presented as a collection of instructions from God to Mohammed during various struggles and during wars, with non-muslims. So the argument you give can be applied to the Koran as well.

Moreover, to call Gita or Mahabharata as “historical accounts” is plain wrong, there is no proof that any of the events indeed did take place, or that any of the charecters are historical. Infact its pretty much well established that the Gita was a much later addition to the original script, but thats besides the point.

“Gita does have instructions also for violence when faced with injustice or Adharma, not for tuning non believers into believers”

Its the same context that these are mentioned in the Koran.

“Let me also give you a bit of my background…..”

your background is immaterial, whether you wept or jumped with joy after the babri masjid destruction is not important. What I dont understand is what exactly are you trying to say?? IS it your point that there are terrorists who kill in the name of Islam. YES….BUT Are there terrorists who are non-muslims…AGAIN YES.

In India for instance, be it the bajrang dal, the Shiv sena or more recently the “abhinav bharat”, they are all terrorists. Why do you consider people who bomb market places to be terrorists but not people who burn, rape and stab with trishuls? Is your definition of terrorism, only that “If they do it its terrorism and if we do it its not”????

All over the world people have killed, the Jews have indulged in terrorist acts to get a state from the british, then after that they have managed the biggest state terror operations in world history. In africa you had apartheid for such a long period, In Germany hitler massacred so many jews, Stalin, LTTE, Maoists in Nepal, and in India. Why dont these non-muslim examples come to your mind? Jalian Wala Bagh for instance, Sikh seperatism for instance……Among Hindus you have a century old terrorism in the name of caste system. Do you not see any of these??

“This even after having seen communal riots when I was 16 yrs, started by you know who…”

YES I know who, but clearly you dont. The majority of the people who have died in India in Riots are overwhelmingly Muslims, so please dont even start on these lines…..

“Gujarat post Godhra was a Progrom and Godhra was an accident?….”

Its clear you dont even understand the difference between the two. In the case of Godhra, it was done by individuals…….. there are criminals in every community…. BUT in the post Godhra riots, it was not just a “hindu-muslim” issue, it was done by THE STATE, which is CONSTITUTIONALLY , not to forget MORALLY, obliged to protect its citizens and treat them as equals, hence by any standards its a by far bigger crime……

SKS Mumbai Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

Bobby,

This being a weekend, I will not respond to all your points today but on Monday.

But just a quick reality check. the difference is the cause and the objective. What is unique is the killing of non- believers to ensure that you can reach the highest jannat with all the attendant excitements.

For the rest wait till Monday

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

sks ,

Reality check is indeed needed. Like any other organization, these terror organizations have various motives. Its not black and white. The “Jannat” issue you point out is but one of the many. Most of the time these organizations come up with issues relating to what they perceive as injustice towards them. Osama’s regularly released tapes for instance clearly spell out his opposition for American forces in Saudi Arabia to be one of the reasons he hates the US. Even there you see how he very cleverly, like any smart politician, constantly changes his points. For instance when the israelis were crushing palestines, he would bring up that issue, because he knows very well, that “JANNAT” is not an all time issue with muslims, just like the BJP knows that the “Ram Mandir” is not something they can play with in every election.

The Mujahideen was mostly created for political reasons by the USA as you very well know. Most of the time they come to the fore because the powers that be simply crush all secular opposition. This is true in Palestine, where the once secular opposition was crushed, only to be replaced by the more virulent muslim opposition. Thats true in Afghanistan as well. In Kashmir for instance the early opposition was political, and only when it was constantly rejected and refused that they picked up the gun, with ofcourse some help by our neigbours.

Its just a matter of time when you will see tibetans also going th same way, if chinese oppression doesnot stop, as the Dalai Lama himself has said quite a few times.

one has to be totally blind and foolish to see these events completely seperated from political realities.

SKS Mumbai Reply:
April 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

nbz’s said;
“Secondly I don’t know why is it that Hindus (especially), get all worked when it comes to this argument. Do you need. some sort of certificate from a muslim when it comes to going to Heaven or is”

Reply;
I take it that you have not read my first response to Inder’s question, I said his question is irrelevant. it was perfectly alright if Muslims believed that others would go to hell, as long as it were limited to their beliefs only. What makes u think that I wanted your certificate for my eligibility to your heaven?

nbz’s said;
“Arabic is a very rich language etymologically, hence the large number of interpretations. So you see it can cater to a wide spectrum of people with all kinds of ideologically fact is employed by Islamophobes who then quote from their version of “Quran” to paint Islam in any light they want. Hence, I will not quote anything from the Quran cause it doesn’t matter”

Reply:
So what is the point ? Are u saying that without the knowledge of Arabic no can understand Islam. That is a bit strange if it is meant to be universal religion? As I understand from your reply the difference the arabic Koran and its translations are on profound matters. Is it that the non-arabic people who are converting to Islam, based on its translations have not understood Islam but just converted?.

In that case the progressive Islamic scholars need to find a way out on this or else the consequences of people taking it and interpreting as per their convenience is way too high.

(BTW are you including the terrorists also in the definition of Islamophobes (apart from me of course). Their interpretation seems very similar to what you refer to as Islamophobes.)

Also out of curiosity: do you know Arabic?

nbz’s said;
“you may call it “Classic obfuscation instead of giving a straight reply” and I give a damn. I don’t need any kind of certificate from you.

Reply: I think you finally replied in a straight manner, should address Inder’s query. BTW what is this about certificate exchange business?

nbz’s said;
”You just don’t get it, do you? The word is Ijtihad. Damn it, SKS Mumbai , do i have to write everything from my previous argument again or will you do me the favor of reading it by yourself

Reply: I am sorry for this one, although a straight reply in the first stance would have helped us all. The reasons I initially ignored your comment about Ijtihad were these:

1. If you notice the responses by Dar- Ul-uloom to some of the questions, meant nothing or everything depending upon who read it. (Do you agree?)

2. I have to accept it was my ignorance. I had read stuff like doors to Ijtihad were closed long ago and in any case its scope does not include Koran, it was more on things like Sharia law etc. Although I do realize that one of the points Zia made somewhere was the need to reopen those doors. Can you tell me about some websites where I can get more information on the current thinking among Muslims on this issue and also about the scope of Ijtihad?

nbz’s said;
Better watch out then.”

Reply: I am not sure I understood this one I had already said I have to watch out and that indeed is the problem. Will you elaborate on this one?

nbz’s said ;
“You hit the bull’s eye! hindus are under attack everywhere. even in their own god damn country.”

Reply: Once again you have to excuse my understanding capabilities. My intent was to say that I am under the threat even if I were not a Hindu. May be my language should have been more refined.

A smaller point though, it needs to be mentioned in answering a couple of my questions you have accused me of Bigotry, Islamophobia and yes Pseudo secularism too. Do let me know if I have also ascribed offensive adjectives on you personally. I will try to avoid it.

I hope you understand now why I thought your initial response was obfuscation. Although I could have waited for further clarifications before starting on obfuscation. My apologies for jumping the gun.

nbz Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

SKS Mumbai,

Getting back to Inder’s question (i shall be more elaborate than my previous post), Islam believes in the golden rule “Do good unto others as you would do onto yourself”. the Quran begins with describing Allah as compassionate, loving and merciful. It talks again and again of the need for humans to show compassion and love to each other (and i don’t mean muslims here) and that these qualities make for a better human being. It also says that all men irrespective of the race,color, creed are equal in the eyes of Allah, the only quality by which one man will supersede over another is the good deeds that he does.(the Quran is very clear on this and surprise, It does not elaborate on whether these good deeds inculde being a “Muslim”).
Hence i say “Yes” to Inder’s question.
Also, I find it stupid when people(and it is not just muslims) judge others on the basis of religion and go about passing judgements whether they are eligible for Heaven or not. These things are are best left to God.
Secondly I don’t know why is it that Hindus (especially), get all worked when it comes to this argument. Do you need some sort of certificate from a muslim when it comes to going to Heaven or is it some kind of a moral slugfest where my religion is the best?

“May I know the generous Koran sections where universal brotherhood is preached.”
The Quran does not come in a standard text book form version.There is only one standard version and that is in arabic. All the other things and quotes that float around are interpretations. There are over a 100 interpretations in English alone. Add to it all the other langauges and dialects and you have over a 1000 versions of the Quran. Arabic is a very rich langauge etymologically, hence the large number of interpretations. So you see it can cater to a wide spectrum of people with all kinds of ideologies.This fact is employed by Islamophobes who then quote from their version of “Quran” to paint Islam in any light they want.
Hence, I will not quote anything from the Quran cause it doesn’t matter. you may call it “Classic obfuscation instead of giving a straight reply” and I give a damn. I don’t need any kind of certificate from you.

“How do you conclude that I have misinterpreted the quoted Hadith? I said it is unambiguous. Prove it is anything else”
You just don’t get it, do you? The word is Ijtihad. Damn it, SKS Mumbai , do i have to write everything from my previous arguement again or will you do me the favour of reading it by yourself.

“The Moral equivalence theory that every religion is equally bad is plain obfuscation”. This gets more pathetic. Why don’t you do me a favour and read this ebook( http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20927 ) so that you are better acquainted with Islam,Come back and then can have a better arguement on your Moral equivalence theory.
Tough luck!

“I am not writing all this to prove that I am secular, because I know I am”
I don’t care whether you are secular or not. Just add pseudo as a prefix to the brand of secularism that you follow.

“But what happened ? First there was blasts in Sarojini Nagar Delhi, the Local trains in Mumbai and the 26/11. Now I know their perpetrators and apologists will provide a 1000 reasons as the cause although professing at the same time that this was dastardly act. That was when I started reading about religion and this is where I am today.”
Poor SKS! Seems like you have worked hard to reach where you are today.BTW, it is only Hindus that die, right?

To compare VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal to SIMI, LeT, JeM etc is absolute ****
SKS, I am begining to pity you. Dude you really need a break!

“I also tried to think what if I were not a Hindu, but say a Christian or an atheist or a Jew, would my views be different. No no way I would still be subject to those threats.”
You hit the bull’s eye! hindus are under attack everywhere. even in their own goddamn country.

“So, Please stop this justification and moral equivalence business. The threat exists and is waiting for its next set of non believing lambs.”
Better watch out then.

Bobby Reply:
April 18th, 2009 at 11:08 am

“But at the same time, can we just stick to just these three questions I requested.
If you have answers please let me know.
If not we will wait for Zia.”

Well I cant answer questions for Zia, nor am i a muslim. (though my guess is his answers would be NO, NO and YES). But my problem with your questions is that , if some one had asked me these questions, (especially when you add a clause “pls give one-line answers”) I would have found it insulting in the first place. Do you go about asking hindus whether they believe in the caste system?

Pankaj Reply:
April 19th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

This is going no where.. we need a civil war to settle differences… so much for Gandhi’s nation……