Right to recall could make governments fall

I agree with Vinod.

Recall may be something to be considered many years from now, when things are mature enough.

US does have recall; but only within certain states, and only for state positions (such as governor, state reps etc). Arnold Swazener became the Governor of California through a recall election (recalling Grey Davis, who was the governor of California).

Try it at Panchayat / Municipality levels before rolling out to parliamentary seats.

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1. Right to reject- I totally agree with this because this will force parties to filed candidates who are acceptable to public.

2. Right to recall- This is pretty complex in a corrupt democracy like India where NGOs and Journos with political parties can gang up and try to recall someone whom they hate. e.g. Modi

However there should be an attempt to TRULY secularize Indian politics. I don’t like BJP’s majority and Congress’s minority politics. Both these parties are doing a great harm to India in long run.

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Vinodji

Correctly put.

Recalling a representative is not practical and subject to misuse. What may also happen is that by the time the process of recalling is over, the term of the MP might have come to an end, given the fact how things in India move – at snail’s pace.

Prevention is better than cure.

Somehow, the parties themselves have to reform and not put up candidates with questionable credentials and background. The question is how do we get political parties to follow this? Poll reforms are currently being discussed by the UPA. Let us hope something positive comes up.

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The political parties can be more self policing. Somebody in an earlier blog mentioned 300 or so MPs in the current parlliament have some civil/criminal case going on against them!

Or, may be a “primary” system where people can select their party candidate rather than political party honchos will force better candidates; and more “independent” candidates

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Vinod

Makes sense.

UPA, in my opinion, is wasting time on initiatives like “communal Violence Bill” ; instead of focusing on higher priority items that people care!

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Totally agree. When the country is grappling with electoral fraud , how can it cope with the additional burden of verifying the authencity of signatories.keep in mind only 50% of India barely literate.
ALSO FOR THE FIFTY PERCENT OVERRIDING CONCERN IS FOOD, SAFE DRINKING WATER AND FOR THE NATION ,POPULATION CONTROL
also there is screening by election commission already in place,it needs to be made more stringent.
At the end of the day it is the PEOPLE’S VERDICT and in democracy that is supreme, DIDN’T WE HEAR RECENTLY ABOUT THE SUPREMACY OF PEOPLE
unless you have like in AUTHORITARIAN STATES where only ONLY WHOSE FACE AND OPINION FITS is allowed to take part in sham elections.

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@Mr Sharma,
You are unfortunately greatly misinformed on the ‘right to recall’. The best way to know how it works is to study how it has worked in those democracies in which it is an option. In USA severel states allow the right to recall slected representatives. They have to first collect a minimum required signatures from the constituents of the representatives, which have to be verifiable, and then only do the recall election procedure begin. Needless to say, elected representatives are recalled only in rare cases. In most cases, when found to have indulged in vicious conduct, the representaives resign, rather than go through the disgraceful recall process. So just the option of recall, which is actually rarely used, acts as a check on baneful conduct.
I am sure, most politicians would be opposed to it, as they would love to get a blank cheque from the electorate for a fixed period. However whats your motive or excuse for being so poorly informed on the issue ?
Why don’t you spare a few minutes and research how the right to recall has worked in other democracies ?

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SHAN YOU BLOODY DONKEY, just read the last blog seems you got your assss whupped mighty hard-
“”"rajiv says:
September 12, 2011 at 2:18 am
The vile blogger shan, preserves any rare positive comments as a character certificate !
How about cutting and pasting the numerous posts by numerous bloggers, here and else where, that have tore you to shreads and spat upon you , almost everyday? “”"”

shan babu, that must have hurt

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and then I read this- DR SHAN – IT WAS LIKE you were stripped and paraded naked on a donkey – what a hammering-
“”"Ashish says:
September 11, 2011 at 5:25 pm
***Understanding Shan****

Mr Shan is- he is a bore.
He jumps in and comments on anything and everything without any solid education or first hand knowledge- be it physics, electronics or economics or agriculture.
He is incoherent, abusive and does not bring cogent analysis to the table.

Appreciation of the finer things in life should refine your sensibilities- since Mr Shan betrays no refinement whatsoever
Rational and humanist- Mr Shan has often alluded to the “Young Bengal” group— they would go around telling conservative Bengali elderly ladies “come touch us, we just ate beef”. —it took a diminutive brahmin (raw sewage caste) called Pandit Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar, another mystic raw sewage Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and his disciple (Swami Vivekananda – upper caste Kayastha) to really create lasting impact.
Retaliatory abuse? Oh ho. Mr Shan leads with abuse and abrasive behaviour in any discussion- “”"

bhari mehfil mein nangey ho gaye SHAN- WHY THE F DO YOU NOT CHANGE YOUR REVOLTED WAYS- give it a go- this week be polite, civilised and make comment only if intelligent

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Anathor advise for Shan :
How about not repeatedly and in every comment using “Upper Case ” in a juvenile way ? The points should stand or perish on their own merit. Use of upper case may only highlight the hollowness of the comments.
lol

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Right to recall..those who support the thought fathom we are a grown up democracy.A country where people vote on the basis of caste,creed and regional affiliation is not ready to discuss such endeavors. The middle class fantasy of us clubbing with the most advanced civil world is too premature. Let us cleanse our very corrupt system and then try to emulate .Otherwise this will also be another wishful thinking of very few haves.

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The first 8 posts are about a serious matter – electoral reforms and that is the way it should be. Then the next two pollute the atmosphere. Disgusting to say the least.

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We shouldn’t be weighing options on impractical suggestions merely because these originate from what is the flavour of the season.

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I believe this article covers the means very well, but pays little attention to objectives.

If the reason for recall is to increase the accountability of our elected representatives then it has to be viewed in the context of the larger objective of improving our representative democracy.

To achieve that we need to:

1. Look at the eligibility- We need to establish a set of criteria by which we can judge the eligibility of a candidate. I am not in favour of the Graduate malarkey that Pakistan tried to implement. Many of our leaders and able parliamentarians are not graduates. Having said that educational attainment must become an aspect of any such criterium. But most importantly what is needed is good character, in other words we should use all our means to stop CRIMINALS using our Parliament and Assemblies as their criminal play ground. People who have been charged with a serious crime should be debarred from becoming candidates. In a country where investigations can take longer than the life of a parliament, it is a travesty that criminals can become parliamentarians.

2. Parliamentary Conduct – I am a great believer in the supremacy of our legislative assemblies. That does not mean that debates on important issues should not take place through the media, or that popular street movements have no room in our democracies. They do and they are very important aspect of our democracy. But conduct of MPs in our parliament is disgusting. Constant mindless disruption, makes us look like newly created democracies from the former Soviet Union. Parliament should be where the final debate takes place and where behaviour, conduct and decorum must be of implacable quality. Gentlemen and Gentle ladies are needed.

Once these two essential improvements have been made, then “recall” may become superfluous to requirements.

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VINOD SHARMA JI ,I APPRECIATE YOUR OBSERVATION REGARDING PEOPLE PUTTING THEIR SIGNATURE FOR A CONSIDERATION OR WITHOUT KNOWING ABOUT THE SUBJECT IN DEPTH.
I MAY ADD IN OUR COUNTRY PEOPLE SELL THEMSELVES FOR A PRICE OR FALSE HONOUR EVEN IN CITIES. FOR WHOLE LIFE.
WAS THIS NOT THE REASON FOR OUR SLAVERY OF THOUSAND YEARS.
A SLAVERY OF PHYSICAL OR MENTAL TYPE STILL EXIST IN OUR HIGH SOCIETY .
WHY PEOPLE WHO DONOT TOUCH FEET OF THEIR PARENTS TOUCH FEET OF SONIA.
BY THE WAY COUNTRY WHICH HAVE THIS LAW , NOT EVEN ONCE THE GOVT HAS TOPPLED ON ACCOUNT OF RECALL.
IF YOU HAVE AN EX ,PL TELL WITH DETAILS..
.

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we have to walk and chew at the same time..

There are several priority items we have to address – terrorism, growth, inflation, corruption and of course electoral reform..

inflation is the number 1 priority in the next few months.. It is quite sad our Govt is spoending time on silly stuff like “community violence prevention (even after knowing many CMs were not going to attend the PM’s meeting)/

Economic security and physical security are the two key items — The Govt has failed in both.

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The people like author who cry foul about implementing any referendum-based procedure would be happy to quote the political mandate of same people while questioning the authenticity of self-appointed civil society representatives. You can’t have it both ways.

And talking of people selling signatures – gentleman, we know of many senior correspondents who would even sell their pens & keyboards to spread misinformation among the Indians provided the price is right. Not all are like that though, some really lack any gray matter and they would start discussing the drawback of imagined implementation method even when nothing concrete is there on the table yet.

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Recall will be only threat to the present politician to work and be accountable. In fact they should individually put their manifesto to the public and make clear what are they going to do in order to improve their constituency once they are elected and if they do not fulfill the electorate has full right to recall the MLA / MP. I feel there should be an automatic scoring system based on their promises which make them to stay or te be recalled. THERE IS NO OTHER WAYS TO IMPROVE AND LET THEM THINK THAT ONCE ELECTED THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT>

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I thiink it wold be a very impractical idea to recall the MP. It would be better to punish him through the LokPal in cased of corruption.

And punish him in the polls if he is a non performer

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=============================================================================
~~ WHY ANNA SHOULD SLOW DOWN THINGS A BIT ~~~
=============================================================================

Anna was great as got corruption into national focus. I think he should focus on that and not spread himself to thin.

The right to recall would mess up his image and standing. Almost all MP’s would reject it. And even the public wont be mobilised to that same extent.

Instead he could focus on how people with criminal records should not be able to qualify for Parliament. That fits into the Jan LoakPal anti-corruption issue.

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What a boring post by Mr Vinod Sharma…. Let me think of something else …OK
Pl write an essay in 150 words on “What would I do , if I was Mr Vinod Sharma.”
If I was in Vinod Sharma’s shoes , I would persuade 10 Janpath to appoint me as Media Adviser to PM. If Pulok Chatterji can be sent in there , why not I. This National Minorities thing is no good. although I keep claiming that I have a passion for working for the welfare of Minorities. But what else can I do..
But Media Adviser to this PM is good. No work full pay. Go to South block office at 10-11 am…. have tea… look at Press clippings … look at Report on TV News coverage… send to PM. Call DPR PM ( PIB ) …give instructions…. watch TV ..call media friends… This Rajdeep is not listening … tell Raghav Behl… your file is still pending…. Prannoy is OK … must be helped on that one..Call Madamji ( Shobhanaji not Sonia G) thank her for sparing the Political Editor for the TV studios .. go home for lunch … take nap …come back to office around 4 …chit chat … ask Pulok Chatterji anything to be done…nothing? ok fine …. go to IICentre … pick up the gossip … have two drinks … go home …go to sleep… have sweet dreams …. Pappu taking oath in Durbar Hall .

( Yeh sirf ek kalpanik rachna hai )

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For those IGNORANT bloggers who pass their opinion with the knowledge that it does not incur taxes.
THOSE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE INDIAN PUBLIC BEING NOT SENSITISED ENOUGH TO CORRUPTION
BUT WILL DO EVERYTHING TO SEE THAT THE SAME PUBLIC IS NEVER SENSTISED ENOUGH ABOUT BRAMHINICAL TYRANNY AND CASTE SYSTEM

This is USA , as the ROLE OF BIG MONEY/BIG CORRUPTION in elections.
Remember there is nothing call a FREE LUNCH

President Barack Obama has seized on the issue as he campaigns for Democrats around the country, raising the possibility that foreign corporations or interests may be playing a role in fundraising. “They do not have the courage to stand up and disclose their identities. They could be insurance companies or Wall Street banks or even foreign-owned corporations. We will not know,” he said.

Democrats tried and failed to pass a law in Congress that would require the independent fundraising groups to disclose where the campaign contributions come from.

Now, Democrats are running their own campaign ads targeting groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for raising money that is intended to help elect Republicans on November 2.

This one mentions two former political advisers to former President George W. Bush. “Karl Rove. Ed Gillespie. They are Bush cronies. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce. They are shills for big business. Republicans benefiting from secret foreign money,” the ad said.

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SOME MORE FROM THE COUNTRY WHERE EVERY INDIA WILL SELL THEIR MOTHER TO IMMIGRATE, SOME HAVE ALREADY DONE
Growing more sharply is a subset that keeps secret the identities of donors who bankroll the ads. These outside organizations told the FEC they spent $137 million in the 2010 cycle — 25 times the 2006 level. Commission on Hope represents an even more secretive type that has taken itself off the radar of federal regulators entirely — by reporting neither spending nor donors to the FEC.
Unlimited Donations

Non-party groups, including the secretive ones, are already planning to raise more money in the 2012 elections. They received a boost from the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in the Citizens United case last year, which for the first time allowed corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts on ads advocating the election or defeat of a candidate.

The organizations face little scrutiny from the FEC, where split votes between Republican and Democratic commissioners have stymied enforcement in case after case for almost three years.

As a result, voters may find themselves choosing the next U.S. president knowing less about those trying to shape their views of the candidates than they have since secret money helped finance the Watergate burglary and re-elect President Richard Nixon in 1972. Watergate led to his resignation and ushered in the law that created the FEC. Investigators found more than $20 million had been given behind the scenes to Nixon’s campaign.

In the 2010 election, donors tested how secret spending through outside groups works, and used it on a small scale, according to Linda Fowler, a government professor at Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire. “There will be more next time,” she said.
Watergate Looking ‘Quaint’

“The amounts of corporate money involved in Watergate will look quaint by the standards of secret corporate funding that will take place in 2012,” said Donald Simon, a director of Democracy 21 and former general counsel of Common Cause, both pro-disclosure organizations.

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@ Shan

I would gently advise you to tone things. Now when you write

“THE COUNTRY WHERE EVERY INDIA WILL SELL THEIR MOTHER TO IMMIGRATE, SOME HAVE ALREADY DONE…”

You are not going to get any friends and admirers for this sort of language and thinking. If you find it funny… then maybe the reality of persons in your circle. At least I dont come across people of this nature.

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@ Shan

Irony and understatement is one part, but I guess Indians are touchy about their mothers!

Right from MOther India to Deewar… maa toh maa hai.

In contrast you could get away by saying this to a Brit.

But…

If you were to say, ” The English would be willing sell Princess Diana… or willing to sell Queen Elizabeth to migrate to US…”

The English wont find it very funny. Try it out and see…

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Manohar, I register yr disapproval of my slamming SHAN, ok sirji, I withdraw.
But who tackles his abuse and his open tendency to drive away people far superior to him? you were silent on that.
I suppport vijay when he castigates SHAN for disgusting comments like- THE COUNTRY WHERE EVERY INDIAN WILL SELL THEIR MOTHER TO IMMIGRATE, SOME HAVE ALREADY DONE
you call that debate, mahesh, i am disappointed
WORST OF ALL- MAHESH- calling forward castes raw sewage- you silent on that ?? Yes SHAN is SC or OBC, some ill feeling is expected, but this militant vulgarity agaainst high castes !!
your reply please MAHESH

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Your blog post makes a lot of sense.

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@ Vinod Sharma

Since you are on the net right now. How about a comment on your pal Mani Aiyar ?
I think it was last year, around this time when I informed everyone that he would finally sink the Congress.

Well much water flowed down the Yamuna and Mani Aiyar finally managed to get the world to believe that Rs 70,000/- crore has been taken as Kickbacks in the CWG, even when only 3000 crores had been spent on the stadia and 10,000 crores on infrastructure. Now all that could not have been “eaten”

When the Congress finally decided (12 months too late) to confront him with his own failed role as a sports Minister, Mani Aiyar has again played a some sort of casteist defence. That Ajay Maken,a boy from Hans Raj college cannot speak the sort of English, he Mani Aiyar of doon, stephens and OXford can !! Today he added Kirori Mal College to his list of non performers too!

Well I hope you still think AIyar is the epitome of wisdom. Even when the whole world knows him to be a non performing dunce who is cutting the Congress at its roots.. And I hope you are not from
Hans Raj or KMC…

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Mahesh,
Policy making can not be divorced from politics.
In a fractured polity such as ours, any policy formulation will be suspect- especially when it comes to priorities.
Identifying the target beneficiaries, the proper measures, separating the cosmetics from hard realities, having the right measures for goals; phew. All this before even getting down to implementation.
A nice article, if you have not seen it:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110901/jsp/calcutta/story_14447685.jsp#

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BLOGGERS ET AL , this is how it is done in FRANCE, which unlike UK is a corruption friendly country

The pre-existing framework has been reinforced since the 90ies to improve prevention of
corruption in State administration.
The institutional system for the prevention and control of corruption in France is complex and dispersed. The
institutions and bodies can be split up in two categories according their functions: prevention and control
Prevention
The Service central de prévention de la corruption (SCPC), set up in 1993, is an interministerial body
reporting to the minister of Justice and the Prime minister. It centralises the information required to detect
and prevent offences involving, inter alliae, active or passive corruption and the corruption of private
company managers or staff, undue advantage, extorsion, trading in influence. It also provides assistance, at
their resquest, to the judicial authorities invstigating such offences and to a defined list of various authorities.
SCPC issues opinions on measures liable to prevent such offences and recommendations to the Government.
Through its annual report SCPC has made an inventory of risks area where corruption can flourish, has
proposed analysis and recommendations in order to prevent such risks. SCPC also offers training module to
government services for example for control bodies in order to help them to detect fraud and corruption,
drawning up diagrams of risks and lists of indicators of fraud making it possible to identify, demonstrate and
prove fraudulent arrangements. Beside these actions SCPC implements training sessions in publics schools
(Ecole Nationale d’administration (ENA), Ecole Nationale de la Magistrature (ENM), Schools of Police,
Gendarmerie, Customs, Tax and Control services (Defence, Finances) and Universities (Strasbourg, Poitier,
Aix en Provence…)
Read it in detail http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/18/34/39303834.pd

BOTTOM LINE IS TALKING AND POLICY MAKING AND DRAFT IS ONE THING , SHIFTING YOUR A R S E AND ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING IS ANOTHER

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the most important lines of the above report , of which i had alluded in earlier blog , suggesting a panel made up pf Nilekani, Mohan das Pai, Azim Premji , Bibek DebRoy , Prof Amartya Sen(if he can afford time)
TO LOOK SCIENTIFICALLY AT ALL ASPECTS OF CORRUPTION , MAKE A DATA BASE AND COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS

Through its annual report SCPC has made an inventory of risks area where corruption can flourish, has
proposed analysis and recommendations in order to prevent such risks. SCPC also offers training module to
government services for example for control bodies in order to help them to detect fraud and corruption,
drawning up diagrams of risks and lists of indicators of fraud making it possible to identify, demonstrate and
prove fraudulent arrangements.

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The CEC has done wonderful things for the election process over the last 15 years.

They will enforce the rules and guidelines. They will enforce what Parliament passes. Some of the points in this blog, such as past and present cases (civil or criminal, Tax court, and any other jurisdictional), and other afctors should be included in the qualification process.

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MAHESH

Absolutely astounded that you completely missed the point. There is no war here, just a very desperate attempt to stop DR SHAN from abusing other bloggers. As respected members like Ashish, Vinay and others have said- he always abuses first.
My only way is every blog to remind him of the humiliating shredding he recieves at the hands of others. It does tone down his disgusting behaviour by 50%.
You dont like my approach, you take over. What will you do when he blasts others as PIMPS, GNDU AND RAW SEWAGE

MAHESH, pl u answer

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SORRY, MANOHAR, pl u respond

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SORRY MANOHAR, you completely missed the point again. The abuse is one sided-
When SHAN is outshone he responds with abuse -
1. to muslims as kattuay and circumcised- this included Ravi and Rizwan. Rizwan was a modern delhi university graduate who SHAN single handedly hounded from blog, with vulgar abuse directed in particular at his ‘abba’

2. to higher castes on this blog- which may include 50% of bloggers ??? with ‘raw sewage caste ‘ comments. Most of these dignified souls as a result flee or come here less
———-
calling senior well educated professional on blog as dick, prick, gndu, pimp- is not on.
Either you are lawyer and used to ducking and weaving – or you genuinely missed the obvious point that DR SHAN ALLATIME ABUSES FIRST, AND HIS ABUSE IS VERY VULGAR
pl your comment sirji

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@Balwinder,
Shan himself says he is a loud mouthed, dumb, garbage .. every time he opens his mouth. So leave him alone along with his trash. You cannot shame someone who is shameless or abuse someone who prefers abuse to being ignored.

@Shan,
learn to use key board and do not use caps lock. Your posts are vulgar in content but dont have to be vulgar in cosmetics too.

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———————————————————————————————————————
Since this blog is about recall elections , here is a history of recall elections in USA.
—————————————————————————————————————————–
Its relatively very rarely used. It imposes considerable requirements on the party asking for it.
However, the option of having recall elections, has a salutary and healthy effect on politics.
Just like laws againt crimes it acts as a deterrent and one of the useful tools in a democracy. So yes, the option to recall wont significantly impact the political landscape in India but certainly will help the electorate feeling empowered – which is extremely important in a participatory democracy.

History and Use of the Recall in the U.S.
The recall device began in the United States in a municipality–Los Angeles–in 1903. Michigan and Oregon, in 1908, were the first states to adopt recall procedures for state officials; Minnesota (1996) and New Jersey (1993) were the most recent.

Historically, recall attempts at the state level have been unsuccessful. The recall is used much more often, and with more success, at the local level.

Prior to California’s 2003 gubernatorial recall election, the only successful recall of a governor to date took place in North Dakota in 1921, when voters removed from office not only Governor Lynn J. Frazier, but also the attorney general and the commissioner of agriculture. California voters have initiated 32 gubernatorial recall attempts since 1911, but the 2003 recall of Governor Gray Davis in 2003 was the first to ever reach the ballot. In 1988, Arizona voters filed enough signatures to trigger a recall election for Governor Evan Mecham, but he was impeached by the state’s House of Representatives before the date of the scheduled recall election.

Recall efforts against state legislators are slightly more common, but still unusual. In all, recall attempts against legislators have succeeded in triggering an election just 31 times, and ten of those occurred in a single year, 2011. Fifteen of the 31 state legislators to face a recall election were successfully recalled, another 15 survived the recall attempt and remained in office, and the outcome of one election remins o be seen (it is scheduled for November 8,2011). The list below represents all of the recall efforts against state legislators that led to elections between 1908 (when the first state to implement the recall, Oregon, did so) and the present. Many more petitions are started and never make it to the election stage; either they are abandoned by their sponsors, or they fail to gather sufficient valid signatures to trigger an election.

All Recall Elections Held in the U.S. for State Legislators
1913: California state senator Marshall Black was recalled.
1914: California state senator Edwin Grant was recalled.
1914: California state senator James Owens survived a recall election.
1932: Wisconsin state senator Otto Mueller survived a recall election.
1935: Oregon state representative Harry Merriam was recalled.
1971: Idaho state senator Fisher Ellsworth was recalled.
1971: Idaho state representative Aden Hyde was recalled.
1981: Washington state senator Peter von Reichbauer survived a recall election.
1983: Michigan state senator Phil Mastin was recalled.
1983: Michigan state senator David Serotkin was recalled. (Technically he resigned from office before the results of the recall election were certified, but the results were sufficient to recall him.)
1985: Oregon state representative Pat Gillis was recalled.
1988: Oregon state senator Bill Olson was recalled.
1990: Wisconsin state assembly member Jim Holperin survived a recall election.
1994: California state senator David Roberti survived a recall election.
1995: California assembly member Paul Horcher was recalled.
1995: California assembly member Michael Machado survived a recall election.
1995: California assembly member Doris Allen was recalled.
1996: Wisconsin state senator George Petak was recalled.
2003: Wisconsin state senator Gary George was recalled.
2008: California state senator Jeff Denham survived a recall election.
2008: Michigan house speaker Andy Dillon survived a recall election.
2011: Wisconsin state senators Robert Cowles, Alberta Darling, Dave Hansen, Sheila Harsdorf, Jim Holperin, Luther Olsen and Robert Wirch survived attempted recalls, while Senators Randy Hopper and Dan Kapanke were recalled.
2011: Arizona Senate President Russell Pearce will face a recall election on November 8.

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I reccomend RECALL

If recall is going to be based on number of signatures, then I am all for it.

I have a feeling it will provide some extra income for the poor people.

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I said- “”"Not fond of Aiyer, but at least he went to Cambridge while u train in Eastham hospital- garbage hospital in deprived area of pakistanis and somalian gangs”"”

DR SHAN said- there is no eastham hospital in UK, HE WOULD BE MOST MORTIFIED IF BLOGGERS KNEW HE WAS THIRD RATE DOCTOR, working in shortage area

I checked your original post one year ago- yes- you had said Newham General hospital, which bloggers is in Eastham area. Most garbage hospital of UK, ALMOST GOT SHUT DOWN MANY TIMES

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flies swarm in Newham hospital
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492470/Operations-axed-plague-flies-invade-London-hospital.html

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Guys watch this movie BOL. Saw last night and was blown away .

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Rajiv;
I understand the spirit of your argument but Indian democracy is not mature enough to have this provision of recall, at least at this stage. One has to look for some other arrangement to tackle this problem of MPs’ corruption. Best would be, not to give tickets to corrupts. Why a political party will agree with this, if the candidate has money/ muscle power to get the seat?? so, it is well neigh impossible to expect parties to listen to this. Any Lokpal kind of authority ? do not know, Sheshan type officer, may be. this question still begs answer.

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The right to recall would be impractical and expensive.

Impractical because eveery few months a vested group will start asking for the MLA or MP to be dumped.

Expensive because a new elelction costs money.

So a srong Lok Pal which punishes corrpt MPs is snough.

As for performance, I was not aware that any MP or MLA, barring Ministers, actually had to perform. At best the just follow party whips for voting in Parliament. A few give speeches.

PV Rao gave a chacne for MPs and MLAs to perform by giving them a say in the development fund of their constituency.

AND that has becaome a scam now. 30% OF THESE FUNDS GO BACK TO THE MPS/MLAs as kickbacks…

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Here is an idea, not sure if it is practical and not unconstitutional.

A) A person wishing to stand for elections to the Lok Sabha, he must have been previously elected either as a MP or a MLA or a Zilla Parishad Member or Municipal Councillor/Corporator or member of the panchayat and served at least 3 years as one of the above.

1) This way people may be aware of the track record of the candidate concerned – good, bad or ugly (!). He/she has to still fulfill the existing provisions. Hence people may be able to make a more informed choice.

2) This will keep the riff-raff out. If he/she cannot get elected to smaller bodies, what chance has he/she in the biggest contest. The number of contestants will be much smaller and more manageable. The election commission, who will then be able to monitor the individual campaign more closely to prevent any hanky-panky.

3) No gate-crashing to the Parliament directly by Priyanka Gandhi or by Gopinath Munde’s cousin thrice removed. Let them learn the state-craft first before entering parliament.

To put this in practice, we may to have to put this in practice say after 5 years from the date of notification, so that the parties are able to achieve critical mass of candidates.

B) Other provisions

1) No candidate should be allowed to contest from more than one constituency.

2) A candidate must be proposed/seconded by at least 500 or even 1000 people geographically spread across the constituency. Let the potential candidate rough it out to garner support, even before he/she files his/her nomination.

[Reply]

Very well articulated idea put up by Vinod Ji after a long long time !

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@ Manohar

Arre baba you are going to crush the dreams of one Vijay Kumar to stand for Lok Sabha… with at least ten votes assured from this blog !

But more seriously, this would in some ways bring back a licence raj. At the end of the daysome of our best MP’s and Minister have been those who never came thru the tough polical grind. Like Arun Shourie, MMS, Chidu. jagmohan (he was very good for his constituency).

Of course this also got in idiots like Mani Aiyar, who upsurped the writers quota, even though the only books he wrote were court poetry of the Nehru family.

This would really rule out the possibilty of getting some real talent like narayan Moorthy, Nandan, Kiran Bedi etc into the cabinet.

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@Mr Vinod Sharma,

For starters -Right to reject is basic principle and should be accepted -no brainer.

Now right to recall—–

Name one profession where if appointed you can do what the hell you want and can continue untill 5 years?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Is getting elected a license to loot and kill for 5 years????
What is wrong in a right to recall so that the MPs and MLA are on their toes and know if they abuse the power they will be kicked off………….A nuumber of countries and states across those countries have it and thats why those leaders are working overtime..

Now the points you are scared of.

1)It isn’t uncommon for Indians to append signatures without knowing what they actually endorsed. Vested interests are known to beguile, lure or mislead people in the countryside.

SO WHY GIVE THEM EVEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE??????Indians are fools????
If vested interests can mislead for right to recall why cant they mislead during elections which they do always.

2)Let us not forget the Vajpayee government fell in 1999 for want of one vote.

Isnt that good to see Vajpayee didnt used Buta singh or Amar singh to save the governments by bribery?
We need more leaders like ABV

3)Moreover, who’d decide whether an MP has performed or not? Who’d ensure the option isn’t misused by candidates defeated by narrow margins? Isn’t there a danger of elected representatives exhausting their terms fighting such complaints rather than serving the people?

ONE ANSWER -LOKAYUKTA/LOKPAL can do the job based on complaints and ask for a referendum

RIGHT to recall is the only way to put the fear of God back in the corrupt Chidus,sibals,khurshids,yedus,MMS,rajas,pranobs….italian smugglers..

IT IS AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME…………………….

No amount of quoting semantics by people milking from the corrupt politico nexus is going to stop this………..

People may not have been awaken fully but they no longer snoring either………………Watch out

[Reply]

India Ink, a new regular section started by New York Times.

For those interested, NY Times has started a regular section on India.

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/?hp

[Reply]

@ Manohar and Rajiv

Of course cleaning up the mess is important. But I think it should not stop the economic boom which is becoming bust because of our tendency to scam everything.

However I am NOT knocking down the suggestions. Just exploring other angles. Sometime I feel we really need a Narayan Moorty type of guy for a change. If he can control an organisation of 60,000, it surely is a good training ground for controlling the destiny of a billion people. it is really not about serving the party as most of our PM’s come thru.

MMS as a finance Minster really did not come through the party. In case India had not gone bust then, and IMF not put pressure, quite likely that the COngress would have got an old Socialist type of Finance Minister. Just befor MMS, Madhu Dandvate as finance Minister int eh VP Singh cabinet with his good intentions and socialist programs had created 23% inflation…

So Manohar… I am not really sold out with the idea that zilla elections get you the right guys.

[Reply]

Manohar/ Vijay
Manohar;
I have fought many times the temptation to lampooning you, but since last few posts, I am liking your ideas. At the same time, vijay raised a very pertinent question, what about people like Shourie, I consider him, the biggest intellectual in present India. open to criticism but equally ready to defend him.

[Reply]

@ Pankaj

I got to know Arun shourie personally(a little) in connection with some work. I think he is an intellectual giant who can be the best backoffice boy of any organisation.

He may not be the best orator, given his tendency to ponitficate, but would definately get you the most upright and honest solutions.

When all MP’s openly demand cuts from their constituency funds, Arun was an exception. He gave a huge amount of funds for research programs at IIT.

Sadly, his only child is spastic. But Arun has faced life with strength. And ont he brighter side, Khushwant Singh once wrote, that Shourie was married to one of the most beautiful women in India…

[Reply]

Arun Shourie is a great scholar and someone who does not mould his conclusions to suit political interests.
His father too is a giant in his own way as the founder of I think Indian human rights body.

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Manohar, your suggestion that all MPs should have first come through municipal or panchayat type posts is very IMPRACTICAL.

As a doctor or an MBA, you have lifelong economic securityIf you want to attract the best to Parliament, then direct entry for some is a must. A politicians life is insecure, if they are honest. . To make it attractive to the best minds, you need fasttracking. It would be nice to see some MBAs, doctors, IIT graduates, people from industry etc also in parliament.

AND AT THE VERY LEAST EVERY MP SHOULD BE AT LEAST 12 TH PASS. Maybe insisting on graduation is elitist for some 25% of the poulation

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TWO BRUTAL MURDERS FILMED IN SIALKOT””””””””””””””’

One year ago exactly, Fasi Zaka wrote a brilliantly acidic article -Pakistan’s human cockroaches. Two innocent brothers were murdered by slow battering in Sialkot in broad daylight. Twenty people filmed the murders casually, as 50 odd people watched, including 6 police officers.
The killings shook Pakistan- many realised that the level of evil and casual violence in Pakistan had reached alarming proportions. Fasi has written another article on the anniversary of this most foul of all killings, and I have made a lengthy comment.
Please read if interested.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/251472/the-cockroach-anniversary/#comments
I actually got very emotionally disturbed one year ago when I saw the killings on youtube.

[Reply]

Yes Mishraji;
You have to be superhuman or super devil to do this act or witness it without reacting.

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Another train accident, another terrorist attack, another building failure …

Just read about the train accident in Chennai — one train bumping into a stationery train!
Seems to be a human mistake.
Another train accident happened in UP a few months ago.. Another human mistake; lack of maintenance of the track (if I remeber, the mnister in charge even refused to visit the place of the accident in spite of the order from the Prime Minister!)..

As seems to be the normal “behaviour” now; the victims have been awarded some cash payments.
The Delhi terroist victims(so also other terrorist victims) were also awarded ome cash payment.

Looks like India’s “responsive” government believes they are out of the hook when they announce these cash rewards.

US has lots of problems; but itsgovernmet does not take the lives of its citizens forr garnted (they may in other countries). Indian govt (and the general public) does not care a hoot about the deaths of its citizens!

[Reply]

@Mishra,
I am aware of the incident and the video you mention. I dont have the stomach to watch it.
Last year in anathor incident, a big bill board was put up on the main square of a town, calling for action against a Ahmedi teacher who was subsequently promtly murdered.

[Reply]

Rajiv Reply:
September 14th, 2011 at 2:17 am

Panjiri is a very common north Indian/Punjabi sweet snack. I dont think it has anything to do with being Brahmin, even though I am one.

HOLY MACCARONI, the mask has slipped.Always suspected , the stench , the filth can only emanate from you know what.No wonder that lady said all the bramhins are against shan whenever he raises caste and nonbramhins at most neutral barring one imbecile.
Good Night, May providence show you the light and you come out from the caracasss laden lanes of casteism

[Reply]

Shan;
Rajiv had the courage to admit his caste, since he does not carry any burden. can you declare your’s?? I doubt it.

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Dr Mishra

You are right about the level of “debate’ here vs Pakistan.

However, I m of the opinion that we should not fret about Pakistan, let it find its northern light if it can. Our only concern about Pakistan should be 1) proteting the borders 2) eliminating their homegrown terrorists (through intrusive and other actions) 3) denuking their nukes. No need to worry about their total chaos and destruction.

we talk about Congressa s a “family party:… May be we are shorting ourselves.. **** parties are all REAL “family businesses, feudal landlords commanding their followers. Army and the feudal landlords had a symbiotic relatinship that is no more there. Eveybody there is in the run for self-preservation, one that may not be possible any more due to internal terror. With its civilian leaders consistenly playing down social problems (until it is too late now), and military leaders consistently exaggerrating external “India” threats (until now), a stereoscopic distortion of the reality resulted, with the majrity of its people confused about the causes of its woes and targes for its anger.

In a way its survival depends on what LeT will do next. So far, LeT has not joined any other terrorist groups. The army thinks it can “manage” the less potent terrorist forces, such as Punjabi Taliban, Afgani taliban, Haqauni network etc. However, the army may not be a match if LeT decides to join these groups (as the glueing leader), and decides to go after territorry in parts of Punjab and Sindh. LeT definitely has territorial goals, and not just “terrorist” goals.

We have to admit the possibility and high probability that a terrorist outfit such as LeT or even a more fiercer new outfit will control part/most/all of Pakistan. They will use bomb against us. So, the only strategy we have in front of us is to denuke them so the terrorists do not get to be in charge of the nukes, even if they get the control of the country. The other, better alternative would have been to work with the current civilian govt or the current army authoriies to help them sort out problems, build institutions, build the nation etc… But Paksitan has moved away from that aletrnative long back, may be from the Zia Haq days, .. With the madrassas and mosques functioning as feeder factories for radical Deobandis, the “old” paksiatn of zufi “pir’ worshippers is a thing of the past.

The point is that neither we nor the well-meaning Pakistanis can do anything to prevent the fall. The Youtubes such as the ones you have shown will only increase in number. In fact, there already may be thousand situations like that happening, but not shown on the YToutube.

What we have to worry about is how we can innoculate, how we can prevent them getting to be in charge of the nukes.

In a way it is sad.

[Reply]

My proposal is akin to a candidate attending school (smaller elective bodies – one should not underestimate the importance these councils) before attempting to get into an university (the Parliament). May be it will also be humbling experience, apart from learning the trade. Also, it is better to deal with a known devil than an unknown one. The primacy of the people voting to elect their representatives is the fountainhead of any democracy. and we need to see better people get elected.

For people who have attended different type of schools like Narayan Murthys, Nandan Nilenanis, Arun Shouries, Anna Hazares – they could always be elected to Rajya Sabha.

Rajya Sabha, as envisaged by our founding fathers, is meant to be house of elders and the wise. The members are supposed to debate and vote on policies/bills on merit, not on party politics basis and caution the more belligerent ones bent on fool-hardy ventures. Sad to say, today it has become like an “akhaaaraa” like the house next door – the Lok Sabha and in many cases it is also a parking space for the has-beens.

I agree, all political parties (especially family-owned) wold be loathed to have such an qualifying system.

[Reply]

Manohar,
you may have something in your “matriculation before graduation” scheme there- of course, it might only end up delaying the inevitable in getting criminals to parliament.
A local thug will find it easier to become a municipal councillor- now, since this becomes a pre-requisite, he will stand a chance to become a MLA/ MP- others, without the “ground level support” may not make the cut.
But, those are just implementation details- on principle, it is not a bad idea.

[Reply]

I think minimum qualifiaction of graduation for Parliamentarians is a must. So what if it means 60% Indians wont qualify.

Ultimately we need the educated to lead us.

Of course we will have to guard against fake degrees. As it happened in Pakistan where a law for a person needs to be a graduate to fight elections. In the end a lot of fake degrees were produced.

Finally “Pappu pass ho gaya” Zardari declared, “Fake ho ya asli… degree toh degree hai… ”

[Reply]

@Manohar_T, Do you think Pappu Yadav and Sahabuddin , were not known in their constituency.
IN FACT THEY WERE BETTER KNOWN AND RECOGNISED faces among those constituents than their adversaries..
CRISP english may bowl over EAST DELHI CITIZENS , but rural hinterland operates in a different time zone.
The problem is Indians need to ACCEPT few things. Just like india is a hot country ,not much you can do about it, just get on with it, similarly given the state of literacy AND LACK OF LITERATURE, and the scale of poverty , these niceties about the electoral process is just another fad or more plausibly FRUSTRATION RELEASE VALVE of the east delhi citizens.

[Reply]

Interesting news for Modi bashers.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Narendra-Modis-Gujarat-best-example-of-effective-governance-US-report/articleshow/9977258.cms

[Reply]

DR SHAN
Every Baisakhi and diwali, this sardar throws a lavish party. The navratans in this modern day raja ranjit singh’s durbar (hehe) are the doctors who come. they are refined and i am not going to hide the truth- some of the most refined are the banias, jains and brahmins.

puttar i am punjabi but i will be first to admit that we are very show off and a bit loud.
WHY I GIVE PRAVACHAN- you shan have the manners of gutter rat- u r militant SC or OBC who refuses to believe his gud luck that mbbs on reservation got him unyold riches and bmw (wot a boaster) cos of shortage in deprived area of UK.
Integrate puttar with indian society i ask you and learn some cultured refined dignified ways of addressing others

only raw sewage on blog cums from your mouth DR SHANTANU MANDAL

[Reply]

Shan and Balwinder

This blog will go the way of Zia’s blog if you two do not stop this to and fro.

So, please cease

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@ Gopi

I dont think we should change our democractic system to anything else at this stage. It would only lead to confusion, autocratic rule and more dynastic succession.

A country as diverse as India– linguistically, religiously and regionally cannot evolve in case some part is suppressed with an iron hand. That can only happen in China.

We should look to strenghten our democractic process to make sure the rule fo law is used to punish the corrupt and the anti-nationals.

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Just one point. Every Mondol , I met in Bengal was a SC/ST or atleast got a SC/ST certificate. Admissions to colleges in India is extremely competitive and I was yet to see a Mondol who did not take advantage of the ‘certificate’. Now there is nothing wrong , as I said before with being SC/ST , unless the person himself thinks so and rots in it or lies about it.

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@ Rajiv

I think there is a bigger issue here. The politicians of India and some fake socialogists have twisted issues of regional neglect and underdevelopment into caste, when it never was.

I will give two examples.

a) Driving in Himachal onwards they are many villages with minimum development all because of them being remote

b) Driving from Goa to Mumbai, I came across many areas (this was late 90’s) which were basically fishing villages. Life did seem tough there then. But in 2008, I noticed the whole area had changed

c) Driving around Orissa extensively I would again notice that there was extreme poverty at places.
But the soil seemd rich. My Oriya classmate from engineering said, that this has all the possible minerals in the world

In all these cases the politicians would choose to make caste the reason for backwardness. They were just unable to see that it was lack of development which was the reason for lack of opportunity. They could have used other indicators like water availibilty, education facilites, health units etc to push for more funds in those areas

For example revenue from mining in orissa could well have directly to the locals for uplift, first.

Instead politicians just used a sweeping terminology of dividing society by using caste as a tool.
This whole business of caste has also been pushed I think a huge bit by the vote bank politics of this country. In fact caste has been stuffed down the throat of people, even where such divides did not exist.

[Reply]

@ Rajiv

I think there really shold be a blog on how to remove casteism forever in this country. I think there are two ends of the tunnel. At one end the so called upper castes feel that their opportunity is being denied.

At the other end the so called lower castes feel they are getting historical justice.

But in the end a simple agenda ofd dissolving caste thru religious edicts and then giving opportunity to backward areas and poor can be the only way out

[Reply]

@Vijay,
Here is a real story. While I was preparing for my joint-entrance exams, I had a friend , who was one year senior to me and whose last name was “Sur”. The last name “Sur’ in Bengal is eligible for SC status. At that time I was not aware of what last names were eligible for SC status. Anyway , he did not get selected in the JE exams. Then it ocured to him, why not get a SC certificate ?
So he then applied for SC certificate. Now, they were a fairly wealthy people, and as per him the only house in his north Bengal village that owned a car. As procedure for getting the SC certificate involved an investigation in the village about if he was eligible for SC status. So he was concerned about what the villagers/neighbours may say.
Later when he finally got a SC certificate, he recounted that when the officer went to his village to determine if he was a SC(dalit), his neighbours and dalits, supposedly jealous of their wealth, said that these guys have become rich and now think they are not dalits but in fact they are dalits.
My friend got into a regional engineering college the next year, helped by his newly minted certificate.

Castism is dying in India at the social level. But at the legal level its only getting strenthened and entrenched. People who have now got the certificate, consider the SC/ST status and the benefits that begets as their birth right and they will fight tooth and nail to not give up those entitlements.
The people who benefit most from those entitlements are the wealthy among that group.
However socially some may continue to claim that they have 2-pints of kayastha blood ! lol

[Reply]

@ Rajiv

They would be hundred thousand stroies like that. The basic issue was neglect of the poor and backward regions.

Instead of using the micro appraoch… the government has used a macro apporach of nominating some castes as backward and then assuming the problem is solved.

We have left ourselves open t attacks from outsiders of stories of Dalit rape and other nonsense..

Whatever misery has been caused is becasue the region or the class of people have been left untouched by development.

[Reply]

~~ MORE ABOUT CASTES– WHY THE GOVERNMENT APPRAOCH WAS WRONG ~~
=========================================================================

A hundred and fifty years back… in most countries including England and US, formal schooling did not exist. And a fifty years back it did not exist in 70% pecrent of the countries. and twenty years back, maybe not in 30% of the countries.

Now in most places with some sort of formal economy, the son would follow the fathers profession. Even in Anglos Saxon ENGLAND. SO the names of Butcher, Hunter, Taylor, and Smith tell a tale about what the family business was.

THey too could have called it the caste system.

But they were wise enough not to. As formal education boiught about opportunity and possibilty of shifting professions.

Alas In India we became fixated with the caste system. Instead of providing relief to people who were poor becasue of neglect…. we chose o give it a casteist twist…

[Reply]

dr Mishra/ Gopi:

dr Mishra’s comments about the violence in Pakistan and Gopiji’s comment about the future of Pakistan and that future’s impact on India are quite insightful.

One thing that really has not got much attention, or lumped into the general catch-all category of terrorism is, what I believe a low-intensity (for now) civil war that is happening in Pakistan.

The attacks on Shiites, the “Sunnification” of the military, the acquital of Malik Ishaq (leader of Lakshar-e-Jhangavi) etc all are parts of this civil war. Malik Ishaq and his organization have been behind the murders of scores of Shiites.

While no surveys are available, it will indeed be an eye-opener how much respect Pakistnis will be giving to Jinnah, if the average Pakistani of today knew that Jinnah was a Shiite.

After Zia Haq “sunnified” the military and the government, the attacks on Shiites have been consistent over the lst 20 plus years. Sipah-e-Sahaba , Sipah-e-Muhammad (banned now) are all violent anti-Shiiite organizations killing Shiites with impunity.

The Paksiatni government wants to ignore the sunni-shiite divide, or may be more importantly, finds it awakward that it exists in a land originally conceived as the homeland of Indian Muslims.

However, the conflicts are real, the low grade attacks (killing 30 here, killing few doctors there, bombing the shiite mosque in town ***, suicide bombing of a shiite procession in Lahore etc) will “blossom” into major civil war. And the insight we have to take away from what is happening there is if the goovernment cannot even protect its numerous (and reasonably well-connected) Shiites, then the probability of moderates prevailing over extremists is very slim.

[Reply]

If I may jump in, Shiite doctors in Karachi have been targetted and killed over past few years. As per a report I read someehere in Pak media, when Jinnah died, while his family performed his last rites in Shia tradition in private ( as per the report there are some differences in burial practice and traditions of shia and sunnis ) the state did anaothor ceremony in Sunni fashion.
The Shia Sunni divide ( and official patronage of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi by Pak punjab government ) is clearly growing in Pakistan but before that becomes the headlines, its the Ahmedis/Qadainis who will be finished first.
In fact , there was an article in Outlook India that some sectarian organizations in India, Hyderabad, have also started preaching vitriol against Ahmedis in India.

[Reply]

How long it will take to government of India to react to these regular incurssions by China.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Chinese-troops-enter-Indian-territory-dismantle-old-bunkers/articleshow/9981169.cms

[Reply]

Gopi, Mirza bhai, Mishraji
Yes, we do luxuriate in simple issues while lacs of Pakistanis look over shoulder for bullet in head.
Mishraji, I spent most distresing afternoon- the video of killing of brothers is shoking. i saw the boys grandfather saying- EVEN ANIMALS ARE NOT TREATED LIKE THAT. it is metaphor for total failure of a theocratic fascist state

I will not sleep comfortably today, my heart weeps
PLEASE SHOW THIS VIDEO TO EVERY KASHMIRI IN INDIA- we give u subsidies while sufis/shias etc get pulverised in Pak- u pl decide carefully- sure u want to join Pakstan ?? telecast this video every JUMMA on doordarshan

[Reply]

India and China do not recognize each others borders in the Leh-Ladhakh sector. In many areas the Line Of Control overlaps. So when Indian troops patrol , what we consider our areas, the Chinese may view as incursions and vice versa. However, the Chinese are in a better position from the infrastructure wise to enforce their writ there than we are.
They seem to have the upper hand.

The map-making of that area of Kashmir makes interesting reading. Neither India ( by that I mean Maharaja of Kashmir ) nor China ( I mean Tibet ) had actual control of those sparsely populated areas. The Maharaja of Kashmir, had hired a British to make a map of his country. Its argued that the Briton set out to make as large a map as he could of Kashmir to please the maharaja.
The Chinese , after they occupied Tibet , went on to make claims to all areas that were ever ruled by Tibet – thats why they claim parts of Kashmir and Arunachal.

I think, the Chinese would be ready top recognize the current line of control along the Indo-China border as the final boundary. I have not heard them say so explicitly and given there extreme cunning and duplicitious diplomatic posture its hard to know what there gameplan is. However, the question is , is Indian government and people ready to accept the current line of control as final boundary. That would mean India giving up its claim over Aksai Chin and China over Tawang.

[Reply]

My blood boils when I read such news. Latest train accident could have been prevented.
But alas….

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/12-years-on-no-anti-collission-device-in-most-trains/articleshow/9982231.cms

[Reply]

WAKEY WAKEY FORGET INDIA THIS IS PAKIS (means all brown people in UK) in UK

Is caste prejudice still an issue?

By John McManus
BBC News

Groups who say they face discrimination within their religions because of their ranking in society are gathering for a conference in London on the theme of “untouchability”. But is the caste system still used as means of excluding people within some religious groups in Britain?

Neasden temple in London
Caste consciousness is a feature of life for many Hindus and Sikhs

One of the most well-known forms is the caste system which is practised in the Indian sub-continent, but activists claim similar ways of organising people into higher and lower groups in society can be found throughout the world.

Is caste an issue in the UK?

They say that up to 250 million people are affected by the issue, and children of immigrants who settle in different parts of the world are not immune.

Reena Jaisiah is a 29-year-old teacher and arts director from Coventry.

She was raised by parents from a Punjabi background who were not particularly religious, but were from the Dalit community, a group of people who are considered to be ritually unclean by Hindus.

Dalit discrimination

In India, Dalits are often forced to take the worst kinds of jobs, and can live their lives in poverty because of a system that gives religious sanction to discrimination.

Reena’s parents rejected the caste system, but did not tell her about her background – which led to questions from schoolmates and ultimately, bullying when they discovered that she was a Dalit.
Reena’s parents rejected the caste system, but did not tell her about her background – which led to questions from schoolmates and ultimately, bullying when they discovered that she was a Dalit.

“People with a strong religious feeling always want to know what caste you are”, she says.

“My parents encouraged me to conceal my background, but I felt inferior to children from other castes.”

Reena also encountered prejudice while at university and says she can still see the caste system at work today amongst Hindu schoolchildren, with pupils exhibiting a form of “caste consciousness” by treating others according to their perceived place in society.

“People with a strong religious feeling always want to know what caste you are”, she says.

“My parents encouraged me to conceal my background, but I felt inferior to children from other castes.”

Reena also encountered prejudice while at university and says she can still see the caste system at work today amongst Hindu schoolchildren, with pupils exhibiting a form of “caste consciousness” by treating others according to their perceived place in society.

So why is the problem continuing, and will any Indian reform affect British communities.

Reena .

Reena Jaisiah, however, is in no doubt that her Dalit origins still cast a shadow over her life.

“I own a shop in Coventry and there is one customer – who is from the higher Brahmin caste – who keeps asking me what caste I am.

“She still refuses to take the change from my hand when I serve her.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/1/hi/uk/8089287.stm -

[Reply]

~~ INDIA needs to deal with China c a r e f u l l y ~~~
======================================

China is rich and powerful and trillion dollar reserves.

BUT…

Bharat ke paas maa hai —- DEMOCRACY !

I think in the end , if India gets over its ghosts of income disparity, corruption and criminal politcians

China may feel that the Indian mother of democracy, is better than the autocracy left by their father mao

[Reply]

~~ WILL AMAR SINGH DAHLA SCARE AMUL BABA WITH GORY DETAILS ~~~
============================================================

Amar Singh Dahal is a clever thief. He blackmails everyone. So how long will he stay in jail.

His mentor Digviansh Singh is already preparing ground for release on medical reasons. Some stroy is being prepared that poor baby can get a urinary ans kidney infection….

Soon Amar Singh Dahla would be back to his evil ways of blackmail and theft.

What a joke…

[Reply]

WAKEY WAKEY , THIS IS ABOUT PAKIS(BROWN PEOPLE) IN UK

Is caste an issue in the UK?

They say that up to 250 million people are affected by the issue, and children of immigrants who settle in different parts of the world are not immune.

Reena Jaisiah is a 29-year-old teacher and arts director from Coventry.

She was raised by parents from a Punjabi background who were not particularly religious, but were from the Dalit community, a group of people who are considered to be ritually unclean by Hindus.

Dalit discrimination

In India, Dalits are often forced to take the worst kinds of jobs, and can live their lives in poverty because of a system that gives religious sanction to discrimination.

Reena’s parents rejected the caste system, but did not tell her about her background – which led to questions from schoolmates and ultimately, bullying when they discovered that she was a Dalit.

She still refuses to take the change from my hand when I serve her
Reena Jaisiah

“People with a strong religious feeling always want to know what caste you are”, she says.

“My parents encouraged me to conceal my background, but I felt inferior to children from other castes.”

Reena also encountered prejudice while at university and says she can still see the caste system at work today amongst Hindu schoolchildren, with pupils exhibiting a form of “caste consciousness” by treating others according to their perceived place in society.

The caste system explained

The Indian government made caste discrimination unlawful in 1976, though it is still practised in some areas.

So why is the problem continuing, and will any Indian reform affect British communities?

Reena Jaisiah
Reena Jaisiah has been questioned about her caste throughout her life

The National Secular Society however, does think that legislation can be used to tackle the problem in the UK.

The society’s Keith Porteous-Wood wants the government to include a clause in the Equality Bill which is currently going through parliament, which would be enacted if subsequent research indicated that discrimination was apparent.

But the Hindu Forum of Britain says caste does not exist in the UK.

Reena Jaisiah, however, is in no doubt that her Dalit origins still cast a shadow over her life.

“I own a shop in Coventry and there is one customer – who is from the higher Brahmin caste – who keeps asking me what caste I am.

“She still refuses to take the change from my hand when I serve her.”

[Reply]

This blog has been civil and well behaved so far today ( last 6 hours ). Will this change last ?

[Reply]

@iSHWAR AND VIJAY KUMAR,
Schools in ENGLAND has been in existence for 900yrs. Shakespeare went to a GRAMMAR SCHOOL, SO NAMED because it taught latin Grammar. Sorbonne in Paris is 900yrs old , when English students were barred from Sorbonne , the English founded their own university Cambridge , so named because situated besides the river CAM., and Oxford. I have worked in the university hospital of cambrige(addenbrooke)
Can’t comment about the teaching in all the cambridge colleges , BUT THE LAWNS ARE BREATHTAKING, needs to be seen to be beleived. So are the college buildings. In the library you will find Question papers in bound form , year on year kept for use of the last twenty years. They are steeped in tradition. Students sit the exam wearing special robes. The professors are called DONS, and they are ELECTED by votes not through interview. They have dining rights where they are served the best ANTIQUE wines probably costing 1000 pounds a bottle. The university has a world famous cellar.
The BODELIAN library of oxford is world famous as is the ashmolean museum.
In Salzburg also I saw this business of museum bang innside the university hall. It was infact a gallery of modern arts. Calcutta University presumably imitated this for they also have a Ashutosh Museum
This is copy and paste to show the English society was far organised WHEN WE WERE BUSY DESTROYING HINDU SOCIETY WITH CASTE STRICTURES

the early years of the Industrial Revolution entrepreneurs began to resist the restrictions of the apprenticeship system,[4] and a legal ruling established that the Statute of Apprentices did not apply to trades that were not in existence when it was passed in 1563, thus excluding many new 18th century industries.[1]

Robert Raikes initiated the Sunday School Movement, having inherited a publishing business from his father and become proprietor of the Gloucester Journal in 1757. The movement started with a school for boys in the slums. Raikes had been involved with those incarcerated at the county Poor Law (part of the jail at that time) and saw that vice would be better prevented than cured. He saw schooling as the best intervention. The best available time was Sunday as the boys were often working in the factories the other six days. The best available teachers, were lay people. The textbook was the Bible, and the originally intended curriculum started with learning to read and then moved on to the catechism.[5][6]

Raikes used the paper to publicize the schools and bore most of the cost in the early years. The movement began in July 1780 in the home of a Mrs. Meredith. Only boys attended, and she heard the lessons of the older boys who coached the younger. Later, girls also attended. Within two years, several schools opened in and around Gloucester. He published an account on November 3, 1783 of Sunday School in his paper, and later word of the work spread through the Gentleman’s Magazine, and in 1784, a letter to the Arminian Magazine.

The original schedule for the schools, as written by Raikes was “The children were to come after ten in the morning, and stay till twelve; they were then to go home and return at one; and after reading a lesson, they were to be conducted to Church. After Church, they were to be employed in repeating the catechism till after five, and then dismissed, with an injunction to go home without making a noise.”[7

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sorry the wrong copy and paste , this is more relevant

In England the Tudor King Edward VI reorganised grammar schools or instituted new ones so that there was a national system of “free grammar schools” that were in theory open to all and offered free tuition to those who could not afford to pay fees. The vast majority of poor children did not attend these schools since their labour was economically valuable to their families.

In 1564, the Statute of Artificers and Apprentices was passed to regulate and protect the apprenticeship system, forbidding anyone from practising a trade or craft without first serving a 7-year period as an apprentice to a master[1] (though in practice Freemen’s sons could negotiate shorter terms).[2]

Following the Act of Uniformity in 1662, religious dissenters set up academies to cater for students who did not wish to subscribe to the articles of the Church of England. Some of these ‘dissenting academies’ still survive, the oldest being Bristol Baptist College. Several Oxford Colleges (Harris Manchester, Mansfield, and Regent’s Park) are also descendents of this movement.

From 1692, ‘parish’ apprenticeships under the Elizabethan Poor Law came to be used as a way of providing for poor, illegitimate and orphaned children of both sexes alongside the regular system of skilled apprenticeships, which tended to provide for boys from slightly more affluent backgrounds. These parish apprenticeships, which could be created with the assent of two Justices of the Peace, supplied apprentices for occupations of lower status such as farm labouring, brickmaking and menial household service

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HOW OLD ARE SCHOOLS”””””””

Vijay, I think you got this one wrong. Some schools and universities in Europe are indeed 800 years old.
However, one of the first universities in the world was Nalanda which started around 500 AD by the Turks who systematically killed thousands of teachers and pupils and burnt all manuscripts for months. Science, maths and astronomy was taught here, among other subjects.
The CHINESE civilisation benefitted hugely from sending their students here.

BUT THE TAKSH-SHILA UNIVERSITY DATES BACK TO ? 500 BC, and the famous Arthashastra by Chanakya was compiled there. As I have mentioned before, he propounded his theory, considered revolutionary at that time, that the one of the primary function of the state is to generate wealth through efficient administration, humane taxes and promotion of commerce.

The hindu society had by then become increasingly urbanised while large parts of Europe were quite primitive by comparison. The wealth of nations by Smith was compiled 2000 years later in 1700 AD ?
——————————-
SWABHIMAAN history lessons from Dr Mishra, vijay and others hope you liked

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@ Everyone … with a smile and an apology

When I wrote that the world had very little formal education 150 years back– I was relying a huge bit on memory of having attended a literacy seminar for making a short film for the MInistry of HRD. Now that was
a long time back–10 yrs when I thought I was going to be the next Francis ford Cappola.

But probably destiny had other things in mind. And here i am– a blogger instead of a film maker. HOWEVER, I still have the basic road map of what was defined as literacy then. Even till 1930 it was about 2-3 years of formal school education… that is just getting your 3 r’s. This was for the US.

Similarly except for pockets of Europe– the world was largely illiterate. For example– Russia was 90-95% illiterate.

Yes England, Germany and a few scandavian societes had pioneered schools. (Guess who is going to gloat on this?)

Rest of the world– South America, Africa, most of Asia AND most of europe– were largely illiterate….

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@ Shenoy

Cheers to that thought ! And I am certainly goiing to get influenced heavily by this blog… having spent literally all the time on the road on this blog.

To clarify… whenver I have to move th site to site… or to office or for an appointment… Out comes the notbeook and this blogsite !

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@ Gopi

As Shenoy just said… a Mind BLOGGIng thought….

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I read another injured (in the HC bomb blast) died.

No clue on who did it… another one bites the dust..

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Rajeev is correct, the golden period of Hinduism was very long- 1000 BC to 1000 AD. And little things like having perhaps the first vet hospital in the world in ? 300 BC are fantastic achievements. FOR TOO LONG HAS A VERY EURO CENTRIC HISTORY OF THE world been taught in India.

It emesculates India, much as the looney left centric education by the Marxists in Bengal led astray a whole generation of Indians there into extremism. VS Naipaul meticulously researched many educated professionals who wasted precious years of their lives formenting violence in the countryside.

There was a bizarre move after the fall of USSR to proclaim Albania, yes Albania, as the real communist country by the sad commies of Bengal !!

Knowing where you came from, esp when it is so good, helps you in knowing where to go !!!!!!!!

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Bloggers et al, Education , let me give you my take on this subject.
FIRST LET ME SAY ONLY COUNTRIES WHOSE PRESENT IS NOT GLORIOUS LIKES TO LIVE IN THE PAST ,SO QUICKER WE RELEGATE NALANDA TO HISTORY BOOKS ONLY ,THE BETTER.
That is why in UK every six month they are commorating some war.

First and foremost I think one should keep in mind what Condolezza Rice said aboutHUMAN INSTITUTION.So it is the people which will make or break any institution.You can enlarge that people to mean the polity as well.
Another greatest wisdom to keep in mind THERE IS NOTHING CALLED A FREE LUNCH
Harvard has in its kitty from PRIVATE DONATION/ENDOWMENT ,SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS(yes you are reading it correct)
In Calcutta one doctor told me if you want to donate one crore to your medicalcollege , YOU SIMPLY CANNOT DO IT, there is no such mechanism to accept the donation.
In India my school teachers were outstanding (Scottish Church Collegiate School), prior to this I was in St Michaels in Patna.Now St Michaels was funded by American Catholic Church , I am yet to see a govt school in UK that grand.
St Michaels was very good in discipline and generally building confidence’Then that confidence may be due to the socio economic status than the school per se.
Scottish Church was bebngali medium but you could write your paers in English.
Teachers werelike friends.
IN UK TEACHING IS A VERY SOUGHT AFTER PROFESSION , IT IS A CULTURAL THING.
i know about a TOP Ranking Manager , earning 100000pounds /month left his job to retrain as a primary teacher. Many headmaster are paid 100000 pounds /annum ,which is slightly more than a consultant’ surgeon’s joining salary.
In India , I can talk from my family where there are quite a few university lecturers , Not a single one of them neither has the intellectual ability(barring one, my cousin sister) nor the passion or committment for teaching. For all them it is a job.
That cousin sister told me ,she goes to her college , hardly any student is interested because their school education is so poor(she teaches in a suburban college),they cannot follow.
NOW THIS IS MY PRESCIPTION
DIGITALISE EDUCATION
Do away with teachers ,the teaching will be through the TV , because if you think about it what does a teacher do ,he blabbers on. This can be done more effectively through TELE , where you can have STANDARDISED HIGH QUALITY TEACHING WITH ALL THE VIDEO AND ANIMATION AND FILM FOOTAGE TO HELP in teaching . In one stroke you do away with TEACHER ABSENTISM,POOR QUALITY OF TEACHING , AND ENSURE UNIVERSAL ENGLISH MEDIUM TEACHING.
instead of teachers you will have LIFE COACHES(look it up on the net)
What I writing is nothing unique , In IT all the Microsoft exams are based on web based teaching and also you can download lectures.The exam is held in KIOSKS,at appointed time witha camera monitoring you , so that you are the real person and not a proxy, and all through the web.
Similar thing can be tried in schools as well.
FOR THE COLLEGE EDUCATION WAIT FOR MY NEXT INSTALLMENT

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=============================================================================
~~ AMAR SINGH DAHLA GETS LOOSE MOTIONS— and it gets headlines ~~~~
=============================================================================

Normally loose motions would be a pretty gory subject for headlines. But as per times of India, Amar Singh Dahla is using this as a pretext to stay away from Tihar. The doctors of AIIMS have diagonosed this as a psychiatric thing, recommending that he be counselled for anxiety.

Oh HO !!! Poor baby !!
kal ka world champion dalal
Ban gaya darpok fil-haal

I think the courts should make him as a witness to nail all the corrupt, crooked and criminals, starting from Mulayam to Amul baba.

Phir ho jayega Digviansh ka bura haal
Congress ho jayegi halaal

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@ Ashish, Mahesh, Manohar, Pankaj, Binoy

I know a little about China, having travelled there extensively as a consultant. The job entails moving to industrial zones, checking out factories and the finished product. I guess I am the dumb guy who is chosen by the clients, since I manage to cover my dumbness with innocence… But…

One the first look at interiors of China will scare you. That India at this point looks so far behind, frankly that it could well be impossible to catch up. The cities are clean, the buildings swanky, the trains perfect, the factories and industrial zones, neat and disciplined and the roads … well as smooth as Aishwariya’s cheeks. European infrastructre looks old and US, a bit haphazard ( i dont know US extensively-a confession).

Hold on, I always remid myself. Is this the new paradise? And then the sceptic takes over. And I always question my Chinese counterparts indirectly. Well, they are NOT the happiest people yet…

They dont have what we have in excess– religion, deomcracy and freedoms….

And there lies the gaping hole which could be India’s way to win the world.

Can a single Party rule ever let other political units come up? Can they ever allow religion and multiple religions to thrive? Can they build a soft power to tempt Afircan and Arabs to dance to thier music and match the soft poer of Hollywood and maybe the enticement of Bollywood.

I think until somebody gives me satisfactory answers to this, I will NOT say that the India – China game is over…

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Vijay,

China is lucky for not having excess of religion.

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Interesting article on caste by Devdutt Patnaik.

http://devdutt.com/passport-caste/

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SHAN, WHY ON EARTH YOU LIE ??
———————————————-
allatime he opens his mouth with boasts- “”"Bloggers et al, Education , let me give you my take on this subject”"” and then comes out with garbage. Misleading everyone.

SHAN donkey says- “”"IN UK TEACHING IS A VERY SOUGHT AFTER PROFESSION , IT IS A CULTURAL THING.”"”

Liar SHAN

Teaching is in such a crisis – no one wants to join it in UK that they are having to recruit tens of thousands from all over world. read this – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1425663/Demoralised-teachers-failing-to-report-abuse.html

“”"Violent and abusive behaviour in Britain’s schools has become so prevalent that teachers are too scared or too demoralised to report the incident”"”

Someone tell DR SHAN to shut up, this is getting embrassing- he blogs compulsively- and misleads, i dont want to slam him but HE KEEPS TALKING PORKIES, TOTAL TRASH

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SHAN’S idiotic comments about ‘teaching sought after profession in UK” FURTHER EXPOSED-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1513140.stm

BBC says- “”"Why don’t people want to be teachers? The Chief Inspector of Schools has given a warning that teacher shortages are at their worst level since the 1960s.
Mike Tomlinson said up to four out of every ten new teachers abandoned the profession after three years in the job. Among the reasons given for the teacher shortages have been relatively low pay, low status…”"”

you have NO CREDIBILTY left at all DR SHAN, just come bak with abuse that is all u gud at

The Chief Inspector of Schools has given a warning that teacher shortages are at their worst level since the 1960s.
Mike Tomlinson said up to four out of every ten new teachers abandoned the profession after three years in the job.

Among the reasons given for the teacher shortages have been relatively low pay, low status,

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Its Thursday today. A weekend here . D – day for me.

ROK DO MERE JANAZE KO
MUJHME JAAN AA RAHI HAI

AB AAGE SE THODA LEFT LELO
DARU KI DUKAN AA RAHI HAI.

Guys have a tipsy weekend all of you.

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page turned-
SHAN, WHY ON EARTH YOU LIE ??
———————————————-
allatime he opens his mouth with boasts- “””Bloggers et al, Education , let me give you my take on this subject””” and then comes out with garbage. Misleading everyone.

SHAN donkey says- “””IN UK TEACHING IS A VERY SOUGHT AFTER PROFESSION , IT IS A CULTURAL THING.”””

Liar SHAN

Teaching is in such a crisis – no one wants to join it in UK that they are having to recruit tens of thousands from all over world. read this – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1425663/Demoralised-teachers-failing-to-report-abuse.html

“””Violent and abusive behaviour in Britain’s schools has become so prevalent that teachers are too scared or too demoralised to report the incident”””

Someone tell DR SHAN to shut up, this is getting embrassing- he blogs compulsively- and misleads, i dont want to slam him but HE KEEPS TALKING PORKIES, TOTAL TRASH..

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page turned- SHAN’S idiotic comments about ‘teaching sought after profession in UK”
FURTHER EXPOSED-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1513140.stm

BBC says- “””Why don’t people want to be teachers? Mike Tomlinson said up to four out of every ten new teachers abandoned the profession after three years in the job. Among the reasons given for the teacher shortages have been relatively low pay, low status…”””

you have NO CREDIBILTY left at all DR SHAN, just come bak with abuse that is all u gud at

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bandhGOBI head bawinder , the AIRHEAD, everybody knows teaching in inner city is VERY VERY stressful ALL OVER THE WORLD, but not in an average county school.Also the teacher unions are always complaining to milk more out of the govr Metal bashers like you will not appreciate EDUCATION
Now read on and compare
The Governors at Villiers High School, Southall, a foundation school with specialist technology status and a growing sixth form, want to appoint an inspirational Headteacher for this challenging and exciting leadership role. Villiers seeks a strong team player capable of motivating the whole school community to achieve its ambitions for excellence. We are seeking an experienced leader able to achieve substantial change and significant progress in a school keen to develop its many strengths.

Salary: £95,587 – £109,617 (L36-42) | Start date: Easter 2012 (earlier if possible) | Closing date: 06 October 2011

Locum Consultant Urological Surgeon Add to shortlist

Company: Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust
Salary: £74,504 to £100,446 p.a
Location: The Royal Free Hospital, Hampstead

We are pleased to offer the opportunity to apply for a full time (10 PA) Locum Consultant Urological Surgeon post. This new post is being introduced to enable the redesign of Urology services and the development of streamlined Urology diagnostic services… consultant surgeon jobs…

BY THE WAY DID YOU SEE THE JOKES I LEFT FOR YOU AST NIGHT

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LIE NO 1
sorry SHAN- you do not get away so easy
95% of british children study in simple govt schools- called state schools or comprehensives- these are the poorly paid teachers in the several links above

the example you have given is uncommon- some HEADTEACHER in FOUNDATION shools like the one you quoted get high salaries

YOUR EXACT SENTENCE WAS- “”"IN UK TEACHING IS A VERY SOUGHT AFTER PROFESSION “”"

SORRY THAT STATEMENT IS GARBAGE

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LIE NO 2
—————-
You have tried to mislead bloggers by trying to imply that a urologist earns only upto 100,000 pounds.

THAT IS FILTHY FALSEHOOD- the salary you quoted is govt salary. when i had my prostate done 5 years ago by DR AGGARWAL a urologist he calmly told me he earned 7 lakh pounds a year- private practice is the norm for most surgeons

YOUR IMBECELIC UNDERTSANDING of data, lies, your analysis of comparisons- are pathetic
your intellectual credibility is like cow dung now

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I will destroy your BALLS , ballwinder

Ranges for headteachers and deputy heads in England, Wales, inner and outer London and fringe area. (Unchanged from 2010)
Scale point Annual salary England and Wales excluding London (band D) Annual salary Inner London area (band A) Annual salary outer London area (band B) Annual salary Fringe area (band C)

L21 – L35 61,288 – 86,365 68,375 – 93,451 64,264 – 89,337 62,331 – 87,404
L24 – L39 65,963 – 95,213 73,049 – 102,296 68,934 – 98,185 67,002 – 96,246
L28 – L43 72,752 – 105,097 79,835 – 112,181 75,725 – 108,070 73,785 – 106,137

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you moron SHAN- WE ARE NOT TALKING HEADTEACHERS HERE

You said- teaching is coveted profession
I showed thru several links- that most teachers are underpaid, they are physically attacked, they are demoralised, the profession is in crisis- they recruit tens of thousands from abroad

your brainless posts had to be attacked
the Urologist used to charge me for a half hour consult £ 250
he has all day clinic on saturday- do your sums- you LIAR DR SHAN

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Metal basher with a metal lodged in EMPTY CRANIUM (Balwinder)
Read and try to read in between ,why somebody left a lucrative career to take up teaching

Police are investigating the murder of a 45 year old teacher in at a residential address at 38 Airedale Avenue, Chiswick.

At around 4.30am on Wednesday morning Robert Symons (pictured right) confronted an intruder, believed to have been a burglar, when he went downstairs from his bedroom to investigate a noise. A brief struggle ensued and Mr. Symons was stabbed.

The victim’s wife heard the disturbance and went down to find her husband critically injured. The post mortem result showed Mr Symons’ death was the result of haemorrhaging caused by a single stab wound to the heart.

A suspect, described as a white man, in a light coloured short sleeved shirt, was seen leaving the premises. He may have had an accomplice.

Mr. Symons was taken to a West London hospital suffering stab wounds, where he later died. He leaves a wife and two daughters aged 2 and 5. Mr. Symons worked as a teacher at Queens Park Community School in north-west London after reportedly abandoning a successful career as an IT consultant out of a desire to put something back into the community.

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Shenoy/Vij

Shenoy–regarding your poem on Gandhi/Modi..

Modi’s visa was rejected due to the lobbying by some pro-Muslim groups (I think the Fia connection) .
He will get his visa (if he wants) when he promises to buy jet fighters, Boeing planes etc.. as they say here “simble’

Regarding “looking into China eye-to-eye”.. Years ago he was interviewed by a famous US Policy wonk/journalist (Kaplan???). This guy asked him “is your objective to develop Gujrat like South korea” — Modi answered “I want to create 3 or 4 South Koreas in Gujrat”

Congress has already started their punch.. BJP has to be on consistent message..Advani yatra will screw it up for BJP

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For perceptive bloggers , here is an insight ,which shows the rise of England was inevitable
This from the book A short history of English Schools , by Christopher Martin, page1,
quote Outstanding among these lay foundations were Winchester(1382) and Eton (1440).Both were independent colleges, ENDOWED on a GRAND SCALE.At Winchester , founded by the rich local bishop , William of Wykeham , who rose to be chancellor of england, SEVENTY CAREFULLY CHOSEN NON-LOCAL POOR AND NEEDY SCHOLARS WERE TO BE BOARDED.
Ten places were also found for sons of noble and powerful persons.

WHAT WAS INDIA DOING AT THAT TIME
Bramhins were creating, nurturing and enforcing CASTE BARRIERS
Guru Govind was asking HINDUS TO LEAVE THE HINDU FOLD AND JOIN HIS NEW RELIGION, TO ESCAPE THE CASTE OPPRESSION

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i really cant believe this moron SHAN’S DEAPERATION- Quoting one rare example of a man who joined teaching career late, does NOT disprove the basic fact that teaching profession is in crisis in UK – they are underpaid, physically attacked, demoralised.
vijay, shenoy, ashish, pankaj, benoy- pl u read above facts and say- kya main jhoot boliyan ??

[Reply]

Vijay wrote

“@ Ashish, Mahesh, Manohar, Pankaj, Binoy

I know a little about China, having travelled there extensively as a consultant. The job entails moving to industrial zones, checking ……………: ”

The jury is still out and will be so for quite sometime.

The Indian model or the Chinese model of governance and development, which is Democracy -vs-Dictatorship (Authoritarianism).

My reading is that the Chinese rulers (I am not sure about the common people) wish to establish an hegemony over the rest of the world. Everyone else is supposed to dance to a Chinese tune. To do so and to have influence, one must be strong economically and militarily. Fair enough. Then one waits to command respect and become influential. This is where the Chinese are going wrong. They are demanding respect and telling whosoever – listen to us or else. Their dirty-tricks-department is working overtime around the world. The latest is they telling India not to prospect for oil near Vietnam in South China Sea. They even have issued a demarche. India has told them to back off. Already many African nations, who were in dire straits and accepted aid/donations from China, are ruing. Too many string attached.

I am afraid such arrogance is not going to take anyone very far. USA, Japan, Germany, UK, France, etc, (democracy as the cornerstone) have dominated the world economically and politically, and commanded respect in general, surely they turn the screws too – they are not total paragons of virtue. As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. On the other hand “mighty” regimes like Hitler’s Germany and Soviet Union have had to bite the dust.

Their international game plan has a domestic angle, maybe they feel if people are well off economically, they will have no other aspirations (political or any other) or not forget or not worry Ithat is where they are going wrong, IMO). One must remember that China is as diverse a country as ours – many languages and cultures. Whether their reading is right or wrong only time will tell. There are many jasmine-revolutions waiting to happen in many parts of China. How long will they suppress them by force.

In their speed to progress economically, they are making too many mistakes – the classic example – The Three Gorges Dam is a massive ecological and environmental disaster. Who is going to pay the price? The common Chinese on the street.

Today it may be the day of the Chinese, would tomorrow be? That is the question.

I would rather live in a democratic system like ours with all its shortcomings and warts (we need to strive to remove them) than in an authoritarian regime apparently with no shortcomings (an illusion if you ask me).

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Just to lighten up the mood, some gossip.

A friend just tweeted that Omar Abdullah has ditched his wife to get hitched to Nidhi Razdan, who is supposed to be divorced.

If it is a rumour… it is sad…

If it is true… dont know what to say…

[Reply]

@ Gopi

Patang jab udd hi gayi…
Usko koi aur loot le gaya….

[Reply]

@Vijay,
Very valid points. Sometime back I had posted a story here of an Indian entrepreneur , who has to literattly build/buy a port in gujrat, buy a shipping company to just import Iron Ore from Indonesia – because getting it from elsewhere in India was imposing more hurdles on him.
Unless we build infrastructure to move goods accross the country at the same speed as they are moved in China and USA, we can’t compete and our growth will suffer a lot.

The only reason we are able to compete in IT is because data moves at same speed on fibre optics, in India, China and USA at same speed.

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Guys, In Tribune, Mr Kuldip Nayar, as usual, has written his usual misguided, debased, vulgar piece on Indi Pak issues. I am so tired of his tirades.

I liked some of the responses. I am posting two of those responses ( presumed to be from Indians ) below.

By Rehmat

Reply @Salman Shah:
India aleady has done the following:
1. In 1971, it retrned 90,000 Pakistani prisoners of wars without imposing any difficult treatyon Pakistan
2. Has conistetly followed a policy of No first attack. All wars were initiated by Pakistan. Your own air marshal Asghar Khan would confirm that.
3. Has granted Most Favoured Nation status to Pakistan since 2005 which Pakistan ahs not reciprocated
4. In 1998 itself India said announced a policy of ‘No first Use’ of nuclear weapons. Pakistan is yet to reciprocate.
5. In 1999 Vajpayee even went to Minar-e-Pakistan and what did he get in return? A stab in the back called Kargill. Even your own ex-PM (who was PM at that time) Nawaz Sharif admits to that.

Unfortunately, all these steps have not resulted in reduced hatred for India and in particular for Hindus in Pakistan. If by big step you mean handing Jammu and Kashmir over – that will not happen. Mr. Nayyar,

I agree with Narayanan that we do not have a shared destiny with Pakistan, we do however have a shared border. YEs. We do not want to start a war but we can and will protect ourselves when attacked. Unlinking talks from terrorism implies that it is Okay if we are attacked, we will just turn the other cheek. I think that Narayanan reflected the mood and will of all Indian people when hepushed back on the Sharm-El-Sheikh resolution..

By Ayesha

Destiny is the outcome of decisions. Since the decisions that India and Pakistan have made abuot the nature of their country are different, their destiny cannot be a shared destiny. Some examples:
1) India has chosen to be secular. Pakistan has chosen to be an Islamic republic.
2) India has chosen to be a democracy. Pakistanis are not sure if they want a democracy or military rule or live under a Khalifa.
3) India values diversity and tolerance is encouraged. In Pakistan, there is little tolerance even for Muslims who are not Deobandi Sunnis.
4) Role of weapons in societu- It is a common sight to see private security people in a city like Karachi with kalashnikovs. In Mumbai which is a city of similar size and stature, the chowkidars barely have a danda. Even the traffic cops do not carry weapons
5) India owns its entire history – te Hindu, Buddhist and Mughal history. Many Pakistanis do not even want to own their South Asian origin

I am not saying one set of decision is better than others but the decisions are unquestionably different. How then can the destiny be identical?

Menon is quite correct to say what he did. No-one in India wants a war with Pakistan or even wants any harm to come to Pakistan. But the notion of separating talks from terrorism that Singh committed in Sharm-El-Sheikh wasn’t acceptable to a majority of Indians who were fed up from the repeated terror attacks that major Indian cities had faced from 2006 through 2008. I do not think there is anything hawkish about demanding that the 26/11 culprits be held accountable.

You feel that such a ‘hard line’ (which by the way I do not consider a hard line at all) would have been more understandable from a North Indian who had undergone the travail of partition and are surprised to see it from a South Indian. The fact however is that unlike ManMohan Singh , people from other parts of India were not born in the current Pakistan, do not have friends and family there and are not emotionally invested in keeping up a relationship at the cost of safety and security of innocent Indians. Those issues cannot be ignored as you seem to be suggesting.

[Reply]

CONJECTURE VS RATIONAL ANALYSIS ,THR REAL REASON FOR CHINA, STRILLION DOLLAR R
RESERVE

http://www.ceibs.edu/bmt/images/20081103/13527.pdf
The tables cannot be copied and pasted, but it appears the PROBLEM IS CHINA DOESN’T IMPORT AT ALL ,WHICH MAY BE DUE TO SLAVE LABOUR WAGES/STATE POLICY TO SIT ON TRILLION DOLLAR WAGES AS USE THAT TO BULLY AROUND IN THE WORLD.
Conntrary to popular perception GERMANY ALSO RUNS A BIG TRADE DEFICIT WITH CHINA
JUST BELOW FRANCE, just visit the site ans scroll down till you reach the TABLE

[Reply]

China may not be importing becasue of a state policy to push its goods to other countries and make them dependent.

But it has got all countries to invest there and set up production bases. We could have done this, but we steadfastedly opposed foreign capital.

China’s reasons for going slow on imprts wont be easily tackled by the US and EU as they had managed to do to Japan ten years back thru pressure. Here China will use its might and trillion dollar reserves.

The reason for its growth is partly the foreign investment policy they followed but also of the infrastructure they created. The inputs of production are cheaper. Petrol, for example is now Rs 65 per litre in India, but was Rs 40 ( I think ) in China.

Well the ground reality is we have a formidibale neighbour on our North. We have to be wary, but also learn from them. And Compete against them. Can we??????

[Reply]

@ Gopi

Ha ha ah!! Good one… !!

Though to correcct you a bit… I am actually from Punjab.

But still the idea is nice !

[Reply]

Looking at the blog, I am reminded of maldives tourism slogan-
1 percent land 99 percent sea..

In this blog’s case-
1 percent others 99 percent Shan-Balwinder

[Reply]

VIOLENCE AGAINST NURSES AND TEACHERS”””””””””’

From about 1985, this problem worsened and has now reached epidemic proportions. From 1990, notices started appearing in casualty depts warning patients of prosecutions. Sad because teachers are poorly paid and are leaving the profession in droves.

Eight years ago I was in Agra visiting relatives. Glanced at a hindi paper called Amar Ujala I think- there was a half page ad – teachers reqd for employment in UK. That year they recruited THOUSANDS from Asia and the Caribbean

[Reply]

It is a small world, Rajiv. You say – ” an Indian entrepreneur , who has to literattly build/buy a port in gujrat, buy a shipping company to just import Iron Ore from Indonesia ”

The man is Adani who set up a billion dollar port in Mundra. I smile because last month I related the story of Harsh, who was the son of our AIIMS teacher and who was more into bodybuilding than studies.
Well that body builder is now one of India’s highest paid execs and is puuling off billion dollar deals for this Adani guy you mention. Small world indeed
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/bisindonesia/indias-adani-to-invest-16b-in-s-sumatra-coal-railway/392884

[Reply]

my old friend Harsh Mishra also pulled off a deal in Australia leasing a port from Queensland for $ 2 billion and also buying mines there
http://www.theage.com.au/business/galilee-to-be-the-biggest-coalmine-in-australia-adani-20100928-15vwt.html

There is a lot of anti Indian sneering on this blog, but a lot is happening behind the scene. I bring my own experiences here so people’s mood is uplifted. Cant compare with military precision China, we are too corrupt and divided a polity, on this blog and outside.
Jai Anna Hazare
—————
lessons in swaabhimaan from Dr Mishra, flying the tiranga, in Yorkshire

[Reply]

@Mishra,
You see its often a matter of seeing a glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty.
Also I have often seen that those who had a difficult time growing up in India , for what ever reasons ( ranging from misfortune to individual incompetance and personality disorders ) , tend to be hyper critical , more so if they do not see themselves as part of the main stream about whom they carry grudges, hidden in the nooks and corners of their hearts.

[Reply]

Shenoy and Balwinder””””””””’

Many a blogger here has underestimated these 2. You may not agree with everything they say, but they have 2 qualities- tenacity and humour.
And these geriatrics, haha, have slain many a young dragon. Shenoy saab, your farewell speech to shan above brings a smile to my face. Vinod Sharma could write a best seller from the comments on his blog.

[Reply]

Gopi,

you have, very cleverly asked Vijay Kumar to cast his searching looks towards Kerala for his life partner.

Don’t you think, in the whole of South India, the northern west coast boasts of some real beauty in women? (and also men). Aishwarya Rai is an apt example. Shilpa Shetty too. A lot of Konkani girls are rich in looks, brains and culture.

So, Vijay Kumar, do not restrict yourself to a particular region. Cast your net wide.

[Reply]

@ Shenoy

Well being a monogamous person by nature, belonging to a monogamous relgion, I am sure it would eventually be only one person !!

But thanks for the advice… and the leg pulling

[Reply]

@ SHenoy

Any news on what finally happened in Britsh Parliament. Did they condemn India?

[Reply]

The PM, at the annual meeting of the chiefs of police, mentioned that we have clear evidence of “new terror training camps being setup, and new terrorists being trained to cross the border to India’

He did not say what the Govt is going to do about this.

In fact, it is too childish to say they(Pakistan) have new terrorist camps, and people are being trained. Everybody in the world knows that!

[Reply]

Also, as long as we are discussing the role of MPs, Govt etc……..

What about the opposition parties call for roll-back, bandh etc on petrol price increase? Arent they behaving irresponsibly? (Congress will do the same thing if they are in opposition)

Obviously, the price will be even higher if it is a totally “free” market.

[Reply]

@ Gopi

So the PM is now acknowledging that his dove mission has failed….

[Reply]

@ Gopi

petrol is a funny thing. It actually costs 30 rupees. Rest is taxes. In case we want to reduce inflation and produce cheaper goods, we probably have to reduce the cost of petrol and maybe tax the automiobile sector a lillte more in case we need money for salaries of government employees and other revenue..

[Reply]

@ Gopi

Maybe make our transportation electric train based in cites, like the Metro in Delhi. The approach is still wrong. All cities could have electric trains, Metros, trams….

[Reply]

CHINA vs INDIA
—————————
For corruption our trump card is Anna Hazare
For corruption which is massive- China has firing squad
yes this is fact- every year a few get killed just for corruption- china must be the only country that does that———————-
I disagree when ppl say they would rather have religious and personal freedoms than gleaming cities of china. i disagree- as long as there is no injustice- i would rather have the gleaming cleanliness of Singapore
indians ko thoda danda chahiye

[Reply]

mishra doc- thanks for compliments
As u told us this blog is read at indian embassy and both shenoy and I are in running for Padma Shree ( vijay got left behind choking in the dust hehe)

well I shall keep the Padmas and Shenoy saheb can have att the Shrees (the men)
hehe

[Reply]

Salman Khurshid said, “I pity Modi. I pity anybody who dares to contest against Rahul Gandhi”

I pity Salman Khurshid. To prove his loyalty, what all things India’s Law minister has to say!

Here, therefore, is a “poem” on Rahul Baba:
————————————————————–

Modi or Gandhi? Gandhi or Modi? That will be India’s 2014 dilemma
Modi has many successes, Gandhi’s few don’t go beyond alpha, beta, gamma

Making Rahul the PM will be for the congress a disaster
Because, as the US says, this one is a ‘no-policy’ mister.

We call him Amul Baby, the Americans describe him as an ‘empty suit’
But we all know, the girls are no more interested in his hot pursuit

NDA has many possible PMs, but congress has just one candidate
But the Billion dollar question is, will he get the people’s mandate?

[Reply]

@Balwinder.
Have you read the part where dr quack delivers his farewell speech to ‘cretins’ and says he is leaving the blog.
lol

[Reply]

@ mANOHAR, I am shoked- you said-
“”"I am all for higher fuel prices (this subsidy business has to stop, except for the poor of this country)”"”

1. maybe you can afford higher fuel prices cos your salary must be 1 lac plus a month. The LIC salesman or govt school teacher would disagree
2 or u are suggesting that petrol is cheaper for poor- how u plan to achieve that

pl u explain

[Reply]

Narendra Modi fasting is news.
Shankar Sinh Vaghela fasting is nuisance.

Modi is fasting for sadbhavana, peace and bhaichara.
Vaghela is fasting because in the 2002 riots, hundreds of congressies too took part and killed, raped, looted Muslims.

Modi’s fast is air-conditioned,
Vaghela’s is c/o footpath. To each, his desert.

[Reply]

=============================================================================
~~ ~~ ~~ BJP may need TO LOOK BEYOND MODI ~~~~~
=============================================================================

Much as the Modi supporters and admirers celeberate, I think the BJP will find some difficulty in getting to win with him at the helm. On the plus side they can showcase his impeccable record as a CEO of Gujrat which is showcase of a state ont he fast track . On the other side they may have to contend with

a) Continours negative publicity seeking by section of the media and NGO’s who thrive on Modi bashing

b) Some allies like Nitish and Chandrababu naidu will Not push for Modi as the PM in case the NDA wins

c) A section of the Muslims will always be suspicious of him, given the media stories

In my opinion the NDA and BJP should use Modi as one of its top three faces, but ultimately hand over the command to Jaitley

[Reply]

@Vijay,
I think BJP should not be a prisoner of the media and go with the best administrator they have as PM cdandidate. I think the positives and negatives of proposing Modi as PM candidate , cancel each other, so it may be better to go with Modi. Jaitley is good but not as decisive as Modi.
Besides in a free democratic policty as ours, so many years have passed since Godhra-Gujrat riots and what is the evidence against Modi ? Arguably nothing or less than that against Rajiv and Congress after 1984 Delhi riots.

[Reply]

@ rajiv

The media is full of partial nuts! They need an issue to amek a living. Since many of them have survived on Modi bashing, they are just going to spend the next ten years debating this.

I think the BJP would need allies to form the government. So even if the BJP roots for modi, I dont see all allies, except Jaya rooting for Modi. Yes the funny part would well be that single Modi was once given a good administor certificate by mayawit also….

Looks like all the singles are vying for the PM’s post– Modi, jaya,, Maya…

[Reply]

….. And of course Rahul who is single…

[Reply]

The best and the worst of Modi”””””””””

First the worst- the video that did make me think for years that Modi was guilty, …of inaction ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1QFcvIg9c

what an extra ordinary reaction! He was a leader, should have said sorry or regret a thousand times. Why didnt he? Being media savvy is part of a leader’s skill in the modern world.
I remembered Vajpayee’s noble comment- follow rajdharma

[Reply]

Vinodji;
Was glad to hear small story you told about Sharda. I clearly remember, the time, when Sharda was introduced to cinematic world. II know Javed Akhtar and he is a wonderful person. could not meet him at his bandra house, though, I was staying very close to his house in Taj for a couple of days and really wanted to see him.

[Reply]

=============================================================
~~ Pyaar Andha hi nahi behra bhi hota hai… ~~
———————————————————————————————————-

@ Vinod sharma

lovely anecdote about Lara, Sharda and Shankar !!

Now just for a morning smile jest let me ask you

When you hear the “gaffe prone” Yuvraj say that murdered bodies are filled in a 70 ft deep pit or Digivjaya allude that RSS was behind 26/11… and you dont comment.

Can we then say, “Ki payaar andha hi nahi… behra bhi ho gaya hai…”

[Reply]

Dear Vijay;
Jab do bade log baat kar rahe hon to …….Ha.

[Reply]

@ Pankaj

just a little morning fun… yaar

[Reply]

I wrote an essay in 150 words on “What would I do If I was Mr Vinod Sharma?” I was told to speak for Myself. OK
What would I do if I was Praveen Saxena?

If I was Praveen Saxena , I would catch the P

[Reply]

BANNEJEE REPORT
——————-
@mishrajee, shenoy and rajiv

What if he was right ?

If he was wrong, seems more likely, then how did a respected judge like Banerjee get it so wrong? after all no one has said so far that he was corrupt or took money to give his report. After the Ayodhya judgement, I heard him say he still stood by his reports.

What if there is another Godhra, will there be ‘inaction’ as Dr Mishra put it?

What is role of Army, when where should it be called.

Modi as PM- human rights folk in Europe , USA and most muslim countries will be uncomfortable. Why not a cabinet post- home, finance

Any muslims lining up to greet Modi yet on fast ?
————
sorry, I am NRI- I ask questions, to far sometmes to know ground reality. Vinodji u pl answer some

[Reply]

हजारों लाशें ऐसी की हर लाश का दम निकले
बहुत निकले मोदी के अरमान फिर भी कम निकले
कहाँ कचेरी का दरवाज़ा और कहाँ वो बदकिस्मत विधवा
हम इतना जानते हैं, कल वह रोती थी के मोदी बच निकले

[Reply]

Balwinder:

Banerjee was appointed by Lalu YAdav, ex railway minister, after the UPA came to power, as a political ploy. First of all, as a “committee” report, it does not have any jurisdictional validity, no power to hear witnesses under oath etc, and cannot be presented/tabled to parliament -. Major differences between a “committee report” vs a “Statutory commission report”.

This frucking judge released this report in Patna, a day before Bihar’s eelctions were announced in 2006. Well, figure it out ! (not Ahmedabad, not Delhi, not Godhra; but in Patna) .

As somebody remarked, “If Godhra was a mere accident, then the Muslim women who died in the post Godhra riots did not die of riots, but too much sex with the hot RSS men”

Time to move on. Modi in his speech before the fast talked about how vote bank politics have kept certain segments in poverty, and why all have to be together. Many Muslims will be with him.

[Reply]

In terms of legal issues, the matter was within the jurisdiction of the Government of Gujarat and NOT the Federal Government of India.

However, federal Government can commission a report in order to inform itself of the facts of the incident. This is what Lalu did.

Where a report is released does not impact the contents of the report, at worst it suggests that Lalu was clever enough to know the value the selection of venue will have on his personal constituency.

Modi’s recent statement, which must have been endorsed, if not dictated, by the RSS, does not represent a change of heart, or policy, merely a change of electrol tactics. We are dealing with Politics here.

[Reply]

If other people have other religion, Gupta does not mind, why should Gupta mind sir.

As spoken by Gupta the engine driver played by I. S. Johar, in the Film North West Frontier. Now on, on BBC2.

Ironically the Journalist in the film is called Ben Lyden

[Reply]

—————————————————————————————————————————————
~~:P ~~~ Will Mr GAFFE PRONE be the GEORGE W BUSH of INDIA ??? ~~~ ~~
————————————————————————————————————————————–

You got to hand it to the US ambassador ! His renaming Amul Baba as Mr Gaffe Prone is a stroke of genius. Wah ji wah… mazaa aa gaya !

Mr Gaff prone has already caused considerable mirth by seeing imaginary pits of 70 feet depth filled with dead bodies. He has been heard on you tube telling students that India is bigger than the US. More seriously Gaffe Prone has absolved the LeT of all wrong doing….

Astonishingly, the same mediamen who lampooned George Bush, go into a frenzy whenver Mr Gaffe Prone opens his mouth. Infact even Mr Gaffe Prone belches, they go into a tizzy, shouting “Declare a national holiday… God has spoken… ”

So should we look forward to more gagges if Mr Prone becomes the PM ??

Shenoy sahab…. Ek Amul Baba ke naye naam par poem ho jaye !!!

[Reply]

@ Raju

Yes Raju! Game Begun!

[Reply]

Balwinder praa, this answers your question- MUSLIMS AND MODI’s fast
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/ahmedabad/Modi-tries-to-stage-scene-of-inter-faith-harmony-at-fast-venue/Article1-746861.aspx

”Dressed in their traditional attire, people from the Muslim community were seen in large numbers at the venue of Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi’s fast which also saw people from other faiths marking their presence. Priests of various religions — Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism — and sects such as Swaminarayan sat alongside Modi ”

[Reply]

Balwinderji,

you have provided the link to Karan Thapar’s interview with Modi. As everybody knows, Thapar is an abrasive interviewer and his questioning style is arrogant, too personal and irritatingly abrasive. Modi is not alone to have walked out of an interview. Ram Jethmalani too walked out of one, after giving a mouthful to Thapar. Jaswant Singh too had some harsh words to say to Thapar befoire he ended his interview. So was General Musharraf. It would be more apt to call these media shows “inquest”, rather than interviews.

Rajat Sharma would say the same thing or even moreunflattering things in such a manner that the interviewee would just smile and give some kind of an answer.

[Reply]

@ Shenoy

What do you think the Amul baba, nicked name “Gaffe Prone” would be thinking of this fast….

[Reply]

@ Raju

Rightly said… a real goofer !

[Reply]

Vaghela also fasting???? Sour grapes!

What a loser!

[Reply]

Raju buddy, no hard feelings but leave the poetry to Mr Shenoy haha

[Reply]

Now that Mayawati also has “written” to the PM about the compelling need for reservation for Muslims (and for the Communal violence Bill- although she did not attend the NIA meeting last week!), it will be interesting how UP elections turn out…

Maulyam was ahead of Mayawati in demanding reservation…

Congress, obviously, always has been for reservations– Khurshid was proud to state that congress has been giving them all benefits including reservations since the independence!

[Reply]

Gopi

I know that you are against reservations or positive discrimination.

Did you know that there are Med Schools in India where children of Defence employees, can apply from a quota reserved just for them.

Similarly in certain areas Railway Employees are given preference.

By mentioning this I am suggesting that In India Quota’s and Reservations have existed for a long time and often for good reasons.

The do not ONLY apply to Muslims and Dalits.

[Reply]

@ Gopi

You are right. This business of reservation along religioous lines smacks fo Jinnahs policy. It is also indirectly saying that there is somehting fundamantally wrong with Islam which handicaps you and makes it necessary that jobs are reserved because your religion will not allow you to grow.

The Muslims should revolt against this reservartion policy on religious lines which the Congress and Mayati want to impose and consequently insult their religion.

Some years back Ram Vilas Paswan, the badsha of divide and rule, treid to woo the Jains by time and again trying to coax them to become minorities. He announced publicly that he would make them elegibale for job reservation. The jains rebuffed him and then almost insulted him, saying that they dont need job reseravtions and minoirty status as they considered it an insult and votebanking techniques.

[Reply]

There can only be clear cut factors for positive discrimination. Religion cannot be the the factor as it gets us closer to a theocratic state and encourages peole to convert. Yes, people from all religiond and ATHIESTS who are God’s gift to liberal democracy can be eligible, if they meet those factors.

These factors can be

a) Extreme poverty

b) Areas with lack of development

c( Historically discrimanted communities.

d) Children of war widows and people who whose family members died serving the country.

The reservation should sieze after one generation. The standard of the educational institution should not be made to grossly suffer.

However a better yield can be obtained by making education cumpulsary for all and punishing parents who dont send their children to schools

[Reply]

The Congress job reservation policy also invoves keepitn the top job for a member of the royal parivar

[Reply]

@ Ravi

Was the poetry directed at some common acquaintence ?

[Reply]

KARAN THAPAR AND OLD FASHIONED LEADERS”””””””””””

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-wrO_MaIA&feature=related

The video I posted above of Modi made me feel he may have been guilty. But then I came across this one- where Karan rattles Jayalalita with his aggression. Maybe she and Modi are old school= not used to aggro journos whose training makes them get under your skin. They provoke.

The acid bit is in the end where he puts his hand forward being effusive, and she takes her hand away and says she regretted the interview.

I am therefore thinking India needs media savvy leaders ready for 21st century inquisitions by media.

AND I AM SLO THINKING THAT DECLARING SOMEONE GUILTY IS BEST LEFT TO COURTS, not media and public

[Reply]

Ravi,
I have often professed admiration for your felicity with the English language. So, your use of the phrase “crypto fascist” got me very intrigued.
I mean, you call Modi a crypto fascist; you call RSS a crypto fascist organization too. What on earth, is a “crypto fascist”? I referred to the urban dictionary.

A crypto-fascist is a ‘hidden’ supporter of fascism. It is only truly applicable to individuals, as by definition a mass movement of crypto-fascism ceases to be cryptological. That is to say, a crypto-fascist has ideologically totalitarian views, but has not yet found a movement which sufficiently reflects these views, and thus remains ‘hidden’.

So, okay, RSS can not be crypto-fascist; fascist, if we accept Ravi’s biases- yes. But, crypto fascist- no.
Now, can Modi be a crypto-fascist?
Even his worst detractors can not claim that the man is alone- that he has no followers or supporters or indeed is bereft of organizational or mass support for what he stands for.
That rules out Modi being a crypto-fascist too!

I also learn, courtesy the same urban dictionary, that “crypto fascist” is an insult which is very popular among geeks. Fittingly, this insult was first used by Gore Vidal. You are in good company Ravi; even if, you erred in using “crypto-fascist” while a simple fascist would have sufficed.
I would still not have agreed with you- but, would not have quibbled over the language!

[Reply]

Ashish,
As you can see felicity with the language does not translate into popularity and common sense, haha.

As Benoy demonstrated above, and as Rajiv and Balwinder often demonstarte here, felicitous linguists of an obsessive variety often get floored with fierce uppercuts. And if you dodge the punch, then you may still be floored by Shenoy’s punchlines.

His classic one liner to Shan was- you forgot the Butch Cassidy

This blog should come with a warning- mines everywhere, tread with care. Ravi dont take it personally

[Reply]

Vijay Kumar, opi, Dr.Mishra, Pankaj ji, Ashish,

One blogger said, even if Modi wasn’t there, the Gujaratis being enterpreneurial, the state would have done well. He refused to accept the historical fact that Gujarat has a violent history of communal riots, whose frequency is the delight of JNU historians always willing and eager to malign Hindus, being the majority community. He also said the bJP has been in power solely on the strength of its anti-Muslim policies.

I would now like all of you to consider these points:

1.Gujarat is logging 11% GDP growth, consistently for the last five years and more. This is not solely due to the Gujarati businessmen.

2.There has been great, nay, impressive growth in power generation, water distribution and non-industrial job generation.

3. While Gujarat occupies 5% of the land mass of the country, it clocks 20% of the country’s exports.

4. All the 17000 villages in the state are receiving 24/7 power.

5. Education has seen quantum jump in both quantity and quality, including for girl child and women.

6. Most impressive is the growth of the agriculural sector, which is growing, unbelievably, at 10% annually, while the country’s average is 3.5%, decreasing disconcertingly.

7. The number of Muslims voting for the BJP too is steadily incresing, causing widespread secular consternation.

Somebody said these gentlemen are in denial. I hope they don’t become comatose.

[Reply]

Binoy Hegde,

I am sorry, I missed mentioning your name.

It was you who said the jihadi is in denial.

Jihadis, by the very nature of their vocation, are required to bedetached from reality, because otherwise the bombs wouldn’t go off, suicide bombers would refuse to ignite themselves. Chaos will become difficult to create. These are hazards the jihadi vocation has to confront and overcome. Luckily for the jihad, this one is very very committed and very much in denial.

[Reply]

Interesting article on government arm twists media.

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column_aditya-sinha-ambika-sonis-adventures-in-arm-twisting_1588429

[Reply]

@ Mohan

The article only re-iterates what the congressis have been doing for years. Co-opting the newspapers and TV channels thru carrots and sticks, Shame !!

Sometimes back, Amar Singh Dahla made a startling revelation on Headlines Today that the Government had got a Dubai Don to phone up Rajdeep Sardesai to stop the broadcast of the votes for cash scam. He also said that Money was alos given as an incentive.

Since the allegation was made by Hamare Pyaare International Dahla ji, it carried a lot of weight. I even asked Vinodji on this blog about ti, since he thought Amae Singh Dahla honest enough to carry his seedy CD for lambasting the anti corruption movement.

BUT THERE IS A CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE ALL AROUND… Including from Rajdeep Sardesai….

[Reply]

@ Ravi

Ravi you just wrote a poem last night. I thought it was friendly banter. But then it starts of with the Nikker, topi and lathi….

Well, all I can say is you are hallucinating and seeing RSS all over. I think you should fast along with Modi !!

And then sing

Oye Oye
O Kali topi walon
Oye Oye
O khaki nikker walon

Mujhko saathi bana lo
Main bhi deshbhakt ban gayan hoon..
Purani aadat bhool gayan hoon…

Oye Oye…

[Reply]

@ manohar

We we debating India’s high fuel prices two days back where I was insisting that India has the highest rate among most countries and that has pushed up commodity prices out of reach of the poor.

Well the TOI carries this as the main headline.

And also poiints out that our prices are way above most countries… that is higher than that of 97 countries… Including US, China , where prices are about half that of ours.

These high fuel prices are a killer to employment.

Sitting in China, I used to wonder, how can we match them in exports. Well with High land prices, high elctricity and fuel prices… I dont think we ever can. Leaving aside academic discussions, we are also killing employment and growth prospects.

[Reply]

Ashish Mahesh and Shenoy AND OTHERS

Lot of RSS bashing going on here. Justified
Have they not done these-

Social work
Standing upto kahlistanis
Any other?

comments welcome

[Reply]

Does anybody know Vaghle is fasting????

even newspapers do not cover !

[Reply]

Congress seems to lose its media skills too..

The AICC gen secretary Mohan Prakash says Modi is spending Rs 100 crores of tax payers’ money on this…

They will catapult Modi just like they did Anna ..Modi is deft in handling…

[Reply]

B.V. Shenoy

There are some moments when the Ganga and Jamuna of tears, which effortlessly start, become a torrent, and then inevitable sangam under one’s chin.

This morning, was one such moment for me. I was listening to BBC Asia where Raj and Pablo were featuring the story line and the music of Madhumati.

They played the following song.

घडी घडी मेरा दिल धडके

Whilst I listen to old music most days, this song is not in my collection and as a result I was hearing it after at least 40 years. Hence the tears of joy and a clap so loud that it was probably heard by neighbours.

[Reply]

JD (U)’s Tiwari now finds fault with Modi speaking in hindi….and, wait “his body language is not telling the truth…”

Well, he is claiming his pound of flesh when Modi becomes PM.. and he is not even UPA! A member of nDA!

[Reply]

Vaghela is fasting, not by choice. He has no food to eat as the corrupt money he may have earned when Congress was in power may have run out !

[Reply]

These pseudo seculars will try everything in their arsenal to derail Modi juggernaut.
Hardly a month passes something similar like this happens. I always wonder – will they
succeed ?

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?735226

[Reply]

Manohar-

I am not taking that issue lightly. Modi has not been found guilty or sentenced; so either we believe in the law of the land and judicial processes,; or not .

However, by disconnecting the two incidents (Godhra and post Godhra), and by discounting heightened emotions of people, all are missing the larger context of these unfortunate times.

Godhra caused post Godhra. Not Modi. (now you may want to take the linkage back in time to Babri et al; but the linkage will stop at Gazni looting Somnath temple!)

People created Godhra and post Godhra. Again, as I said, Modi may have looked left, right, centre;
and knowing his skills and ability and understanding of the issues, may be that was the best thing he could do at that time; anything else may have worsened the situation.

And when I consider him to be the best in the pack to lead India at this time, my consideration is based on preventing all sorts of disasters that are going to hit us in the next 10-20 years – food security, energy security, potential western/US financial collapse, Islamic terrorism (that may become worse; all the euphoria about Egypt, Tunisia etc is dying , Egypt most probably will end up as a country ruled by the Islamic Brotherhood Party), internal Mao insurgency, inequities between states (what happens when UP finally erupts?)..

Modi is the only one that I see. Not Rahul, not anybody else in Congress, not anybody else in BJP.

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Gopi,

“” (now you may want to take the linkage back in time to Babri et al; but the linkage will stop at Gazni looting Somnath temple!) “”

Very well said .

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——————————————————————————————————————————————

~~ ~~~ GILANI sidelined by Obama and now claims martyrdom ~~~
—————————————————————————————————————————

You got to hand it to the pakistanis. Nobody can tell a lie with a straight face as they do.

First they fed,bred and reared Osama and his murderous jehadis. Then claimed Martyrdom saying that they were fighting the world’s battle at a tremendous cost to Pakistan.

Since they have been exposed totally– not just a peek a boo crack in their undie– but a full monty of being lies, terrorist finacncers and duplicitious, the Pakistanis are again crying that their soveriegnity is being violated. Almost like a w h o r e shouting rape rape, even while taking money from every client

The latest is the snub from US of Obama saying that he would not meet Gilani, even if he were to come to the US.

The Pakistanis are now claiming that Gilani has cancelled his trip becasue he wants to personally supervise the flood relief effort !!!

What fantasic liers !! oh God … nobody can beat them at this….

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All-

Lydia Green’s report in NYTimes today about the big allocation of money for healthcare in UP and how vested interests are stealing that (by killing the doctors in charge! 3 docs have been killed..)

BSP Dalit Queen Mayawati’s UP for you!M

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/world/asia/graft-poisons-uttar-pradeshs-health-system-in-india.html

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My Indian friends:

Does Rahul Gandhi know any Indian language? Does he make his speeches in Hindi or English?

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@ Everybody;
Where you are???
Since last couple of hours, it is still 561!!!

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@Balwinder,
Lallu was againt BJP when he appointed Bannerjee for enquiry. In fact, immediately after the Godhra carnage Lallu had started hinting at various conspiracy theories ( just as DigVijay, Imam of Jama Masjid and the Muslim leage MP from Kerela do, all the time ) . Bannerjee was picked by Lalu to certify his theories. That report is worth less than used toilet paper but ovbiously those that believe in the communal politics of congress would enjoy the stench of it.

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Thanks god;
Number has changed.
I will disturb the Hornets nest. Ravi, read Massod Hassan in The news, I am sending the Link.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=68189&Cat=9

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Mahesh,
the point I am trying to make is exclusionism of any kind, based on either religion or caste- can actually be counter-productive for the deprived community. Our so called secularism, is playing this role.

1. Oops; but, no. Caste definitely was not dead. I was only suggesting that VP Singh ensured that it will always remain.
I do not disagree with your description of VP Singh’s politics at all.
About those whispers; funnily, no. But, for all you know, it may have been because all those hired were from forward castes- who can tell? I am not much into analysing surnames.
2. Well, I wish I could be more articulate- I will leave it for now by saying the Calcutta I lived in many years back has changed. People are retreating more into ghettos.
Back to secular posturings-
I only plead for assimilation; even free mixing will do. Please live in your own house, but let our children study together and play together. Let us share the same workspace.
What gets my goat is when folks talk about separate curriculum- because you are actually asking for children to grow up without a chance to mix together.
And, for those who read the “special curriculum”- they will need “special treatment” including having to be told “you are as good”, “your degree is as good”. Why? Don’t folks get it? Do they realise that they are handicapping their own children?
Wait. It is not their own children. Their own children receive secular education, go to the best schools. They are playing with the future of children, who they seek to “protect”.
Extremists from both the Hindus and Muslims feed off each other- conceptually unexceptionable. The important difference is that the Muslim extremists have ended up working against their own community as well.
Re’ religious (or any other) identity: it is not that I wish us to not have any identity; I wish us to be a “vector sum” of all our identities (father, Hindu, son, husband, Bengali, atheist, anglophile, irreverant, argumentative….) and not be defined just by any one of them.

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Mahesh,
been struggling to cope with work the last few days, including the weekend- sigh! Things were sure different when I was younger.
The other reason why I hesitate to respond in much detail to your invitation to speak about mobile money is that my knowledge is from my friends who have commercial interests tied up in the space- not sure they would want me to share much- what they shared with me in confidence.
Re’ credit availability on mobile phones- I find nothing wrong in making this option available so song as the issuers of such credit limit the credit availability subject to the same checks and balances to the issue of credit cards. I am only for using the mobile phone as another vehicle- like a credit card- and let the bank give a combined credit limit and cap it.
I do not think the risks will be substantially higher.

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Indian salaried class now want their salary in Petrol. That wat they are guaranteed
a hike every three months.

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DEAR VINOD SHARMAji

Pl you put Dr Shan out of misery, just ban him. his latest piece of vulgarity against Rajiv above- calling him pimp and making tateless and very vulgar joke, indicates a sick mind.
in last 1 year, many folk like Ashish and Mishraji had announved that they were leaving blog. there were appeals by everyone- pl do not go.

when SHAN announced few days ago he was leaving, no one said dont go. actually everone wa relieved
he is tired, vulgar, abusive and irrelevant. pl ban him from this nice family blog.

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Nanavati report
Nanavati Commission report

# Fire deliberately set

# Outsiders ignited fire

# Death due to burning

# Mob at railway station

# Coaches locked from outside

The Gujarat Government, in consultation with Central Government appointed Justice Nanavati and Shah to investigate Godhra and post-Godhra incidents. Nanavati Commission took a lot of time in talking to thousands of people including victims and eye-witnesses, interviewed thousands in an independent manner, finally concluded that Godhra carnage was not an accident but the coach was set on fire by a mob, allegedly by the members of a minority group.

They also gave a clean chit to Narendra Modi and noted that the efforts done by Government to take control of the situation were appreciable.

The Nanavati Commission, probing the Godhra train carnage and subsequent riots in Gujarat, submitted the first part of its report to Chief Minister Narendra Modi on 18 September 2008

U C banerjee commission report

UC Banerjee Commission report

# Fire accidental

# No outsiders involved

# Death due to toxicity & suffocation

# No crowd, just onlookers at railway station

# Coaches were not locked

Two years after the incident Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav appointed Justice U C Banerjee to investigate Godhra incident. On the eve of election in Railway Minister’s home state Bihar, Justice U C Banerjee released a report suggesting fire being an accident which resulted out of cooking being carried within the carriage, and ruled out the possibility of fire having resulted out of any external attack. The possibility of an inflammable liquid having been used is completely ruled out as there was first a smell of burning, followed by dense smoke and flames thereafter.

This sequence is not possible in case the fire is caused by an inflammable liquid thrown on the floor of the coach or an inflammable object thrown from outside the coach. The “inflammable liquid theory” also gets negated by the statement of some of the passengers who suffered injuries on the upper portion of the body and not the lower body and who crawled towards the door on elbows and could get out without much injury.

The Gujarat High Court ruling declared Justice UC Banerjee Committee as “unconstitutional, illegal and void”.

banerjee is bramhin , nanavati is ? parsi
I WILL GO WITH NANAVATI ANYTIME
@balls ,beware , you will be my next victim unless you back off.

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Have been reading up on Modi fast and comments related to that in Indian newspapers in English.. It is interesting how bias comes out:

- Gujrat was “always developed”, Modi did not have anything with that (the same group criticizes Mayawati for not doing anything in UP or Lalu not doing anything in Bihar!)

- Modi is fasting because he wants to be the PM (I googled intensively; could not find anywhere Modi making remarks about wanting to be the PM or for the matter wanting to be the national leader of BJP!)
(all the search results came back with business investing in Gujrat, economic growth, migration of people from job poor states, metrics on electricity, roads etc..)

- Modi “should have” apologized for the 2002 riots as a part of his fast:
On one side, they say it is a show..on another side they say he should use this as a venue to apologize…On one side they want rule of law; on the other side they want him unilaterally declare he did something! They become the judge!

People who have been against Anna Hazare incessantly because of the non-parliamentary nature of his movement should be delighted with Modi. He gets elected multiple times — so people have spoken. He follows the rule of law and parliamentary proceedings.

(is there a “state constitution” in India? Can the majority party/govt in Gujrat change its constitution to declare Modi CM till death? Or, nullify all cases against him? If not, why are the “pundit ” journalists going after him, because he cannot undermine the the federal cases..

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But why did the Congress Party forget about Vaghela ? Poor fellow was left to fend for himself on the footpath . Such a huge support base , still none turned up to sit alongside. TV Channels have been most cooperative. No shots of how many people were there . Just close-ups of Vaghela and that other fellow. ….. Yes some like Mallika Sarbhai and her friends did provide a sideshow. But that is what the Congress is in Gujarat ..just a sideshow. The political Opponents of Narendra Modi say that Gujarat Riots was a state progrom ..
But what is the Meo Muslim Congress MLA in Bharatpur alleging about her own Congress Govt … That it was the Police which killed the Muslims… The problem is that other community involved is Gujjars … any strict action on them and Sachin Pilot , the Congress Gen next Politician squirms. Where are Teesta Setalvad ? Mallika Sarabhai ? …
And what is the National Minorities Commission doing about Bharatpur it ? Looking the other way ? He He
Balwinder Praha .. Actually I was writing my comment when I was urgently called and by mistake the incomplete comment got posted and Mr Vinod did not let go that opportunity …

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Vinodji

I hope you read this.

Why have the comments on your new blog closed/not allowed after just 27 comments?

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I am posting my comment below in relation to Vinod Sharma’s latest blog post titled “Modi’s fast dilutes BJP’s anti-graft pitch” because he has closed comments there.

Mr Sharma thinks by closing comments on his absolutely crappy piece he will escape the ire of the people. To be honest I dont think much of Vinod Sharma or his paper (its a different thing that I grew up reading Hindstan Times – but you learn as you grow), but it is important to rebut their propaganda because it does reach a good chunk of people and manages to convince at least some of them that what they read is true.

Sharma goes on in his tirade against Modi, without ever acknowledging the stupendous achievements of Narendra Modi…even though he’s been all over the international media for that. Apparently, instructions from 10 Janpath have been to remain stuck in 2002. Its a fact that if Narendra Modi becomes PM, the “hafta” for Mr Sharma will cease to flow…but the lamp of pseudo-liberal propaganda journalism is flickering, and will soon go out. The desparation shows Mr Sharma, it certainly shows…

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Shenoy Saab

All these so called statutory forums like the NCW, NMC , SC/ST Commissions, all under Congress politicians or those aligned with the party have all become tools for advancing the political agenda of the Congress Party, and undermining their own credibility.

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Comments on “Modi’s fast dilutes BJP’s anti-graft pitch” is now open.

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· Nicely written.I have been in constant touch with your blog and find them really good.This is one matter which should be seriously discussed.Khaps?the word which has created quite a wave recently.Isn’t it astonishing a Khap is making some dictatorial rules for girls.What about our Law and Order.Simply banning girls from wearing jeans or using mobile phones wont stop the crimes against girls.We cant force Taliban rules on them .Awareness is necessary and the decision to stop female foeticide is appreciable but to control women in such a way is not sensible.Instead we should first change the mentality that we are having against girls.
If rules are being made for girls then why not for boys.And that too a Khap would decide the rules to be made irrespective of what other people in the village feel.

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In the modern day everyone can easily Immigration from One Place to other Place.

http://www.prlog.org/12109069-parallels-coupon-code-unbelievable-savings-act-now.html

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