Curious case of Raymond Davis

The case of US undercover agent Raymond Davis has come to have a major bearing on Islamabad’s relations with Washington. There’s danger clear and present of its fallout on President Barack Obama’s stock in the US and Asif Zardari’s in Pakistan.

Washington has already snapped high-level contact with Islamabad, threatening prospects of Zardari’s proposed visit to the US. There was no interaction between Hillary Clinton and Shah Mahmood Qureshi (since booted out as Foreign Minister for his “refusal” to declare Davis a diplomat) at the recent Security Conference in Munich though she did set up a table with Pak Army chief Ashfaq Pervez Kayani.

The Secretary of State’s obvious snub to Qureshi and willingness to interact with Gen. Kayani shows that civilian rulers, in the assessment of the US, were in no position to deliver on the Davis issue. The double-murder episode, in which the Lahore High Court intervened to stop Islamabad from letting the accused return home, has by itself triggered mass uproar and revulsion against Uncle Sam. The outrage compounded when the widow of one of the two men shot by Davis in a busy Lahore marketplace, committed suicide.

As brought out by Qureshi’s claim (that could well be meant to cause problems for Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani, his political and spiritual rival from Multan), there is dispute within the establishment whether Davis had diplomatic immunity?

According to Talat Hussain of Dawn News, he arrived in Pakistan on a non-diplomatic visa, which, while being extended the first time, became diplomatic. Thereafter, it was status quo ante.

The flip-flop proved that Pakistani agencies let Davis be despite being in the know of his work profile. It’s well known that top-secret American organizations, including the CIA, have set up fronts for undercover operations in Pakistan. Conflict between them and the ISI is only inevitable— the two sides forever looking over their shoulders in a scenario of mutual suspicion with pretence of cooperation.

If Hussain’s TV report backed by documents is true, then Davis, who claims to have fired in self defense on two men “waving pistols” while trailing him on a motorbike, did not have diplomatic visa/immunity when the shoot-out occurred. The daylight drama had another twist when a high-speed US consulate vehicle supposedly rushing in aid of Davis, ran over a civilian passerby.

In normal times, the US would have had its way, given its clout in the Pak civil-military-political establishment. But these are different times. Its image in that country is at its rock bottom today, what with the war it’s fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan’s northwest through drone attacks, primarily to avoid man-to-man combat on the Pakistani soil.

Effectively, the drone strikes have been a double-edged weapon, causing huge collateral damage in terms of civilian casualties in Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa (formerly NWFP) and the nearby tribal areas. Objective US and Pakistani analysts agree that “unmanned aircraft” might have taken out some Taliban and Al Qaeda targets. But their long-term implications were self-defeating, leaving in their wake nurseries for fresh recruits by terrorist groups, from among survivors of affected innocent families.

Obama’s own image in Pakistan has taken a beating amid reports that drone attacks have gone up manifold since the days of his more reviled predecessor—- George Bush. US diplomatic cables placed in public domain by Wikileaks haven’t helped matters either. In one such communication, Prime Minister Gilani was quoted as conveying his government’s tacit support for drone attacks with the option of making ritualistic protests in Parliament over violation of Pakistani airspace and sovereignty.

The PM couldn’t have taken that position without the Army’s support. This drags Zardari and the fauj as well into the controversy, leaving the three organs of the Presidency, the Army and the Executive at the mercy of the Judiciary that’s forever in activist mode on the nature of the US-led AfPak war and Pakistan’s ties with India.

I personally feel the PML-Nawaz government in Punjab can play a crucial role in breaking the logjam for two reasons: 1) The incident occurred in Lahore where it’s in power and 2) The PML-N’s ties with the top judiciary and hard line religious activists are the best among all political parties. Don’t forget that Hafiz Sayeed of the LeT is headquartered in Lahore and several sectarian/terrorist entities have safe heavens in southern parts of Punjab.

But the big question is whether Nawaz Sharif or his brother Shahbaaz, the Punjab CM, will play ball? There is a view that they have learnt to live with religious hardliners for fear of their lives and right wing votes.

Whichever way the case moves, it raises legitimate questions about Pakistan’s capacity to enforce international treaties and conventions to which it is a signatory. One says this on the presumption that Davis is a diplomat and not a special operations man, as claimed in certain quarters within even the US.

Even if he isn’t a diplomat, his activities were within the knowledge and perhaps express approval of the host country, the mishap happening when Davis’s shadows concluded that their foreign object was crossing the line.

The question therefore is whether the beleaguered Obama administration is staking its reputation in the region by doing business with an ineffective dispensation distrusted so deeply by its own people?

Quite clearly, the US President’s image and that of Pakistan’s power trident has come to hinge on the fate of an alleged spook reportedly carrying a Glock pistol, a GPS navigation system, a small telescope and four loaded magazines.

And if Obama could be that helpless, what really is in store for India in the proposed dialogue? Difficult to say but Qureshi’s successor in the foreign office, Ms Hina Rabbani Khar is a scintillating beautiful lady. Her added qualification: she’s the niece of former Punjab Governor Ghulam Mustafa Khar, the colourful central character of Tehmina Durrani’s love, sex aur dhokha kind of best-seller, My Feudal Lord.

PS: Read Hindi version of this post in Hindustan of February 15, 2011.

(9 votes, average: 2 out of 5)

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Posted by Vinod Sharma on Monday, February 14, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Filed under Pakistan · Tagged Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, Asif Zardari, Barack Obama, CIA, Hillary Clinton, Islamabad, Pakistan, Raymond Davis, Shah Mahmood Qureshi, US, Washington, Yusuf Raza Gilani

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Vijay Kumar

HIna Rabbani may be a “scintallating” beauty but hopefully she would not walk into the trap of self grandiosity in which Shah Mehmood Qureshi fell as far as India is concerned.

However it is well possible that some scribes may see her beauty as a seductive factor to concede more to Pakistan than it deserves from us and the world

The US has a paucity of men and women who are willing to get themselves killed in the Af-Pak. It has been outsourcing its military work to private security agencies and merceneries. And offering green cards to youth all over the world, who are willing to serve in their forces. Maybe the fake Ram autar can get a green card this way !

Anyway if the US and Pak relations worsen, it is only good for India as it will expose Pakistan’s double dealing to the world….

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 14th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
What a way to start the discussion on a serious blog. You clearly missed the point that Hina is the first woman foreign minister of Pakistan. She has studied at Massachusetts University and was junior Minister for Economic Affairs earlier. At least on paper, she will be Pakistan’s principal interlocutor in the talks. But the men guiding her will be from the fauj which, one is told by GoI, is on board this time for the dialogue. Let us wait and watch.

[Reply]
nirav Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 2:59 am
Dont know how good or bad Hina would be but atleast she is well educated and not handpicked for doing toiletries at some royal family….like some FM of its nbr country…
SM Krishna doesnt even know what county he represents…I could understand him reading italian ambassadors speech but not portuguese:)
Shame on us for electing such disgraceful people….
For 5 min he was reading another countrys speech….I mean how stupid and careless is that …
It has made us hang our heads in shame..After that Mr Krishna remains unapologetic…Vinod Sharma ….ab to sharam karo is party ka sath chodo…..

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Nirav,

the people of Karnataka would not have made the mistake of electing Krishna to the Lokasabha. He got himself elected to the Rajyasabha with the benevolence of the congress presidente.

But, imagine a scenario, where he reads the speech of the Italian FM or even that of thr Pak FM. The media would have gone after him hammer and tongs.

Earlier, he lived in a 5 star hotel suite at a daily rent of Rs.1lac for a mere 5hours of sleep daily, for three months.

Then he made India feel acute ’sharam’ and humiliation at sharm-el-shaikh.

Later, SMK sided with SMQ to insult the home secretary of India.

Now he wants to sign off on a grand note by holding peace talks with Pakistan, even without any commitment from the other side on terrorism or 26/11.

The earlier MMS gives the pink slip to SMK, the better for his party. Better still, he can give one to SMK and one to himself.

nirav Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 6:26 pm
shenoy ji,

All true but arent you surprised at the loud silience by Mr Vinod sharma on this, SMK UN faisco…
Not even a word or mention:)
I have a feeling the 5 star suit that SMK used is now rented to NMC member:)
what are your feelers on the huge Press conference by PM MMS tomorrow…
One thing for sure no matter what is to look out is an article that Vinod shrma will post and is already typed …called MMS re-Teflon man…
I hope he remembers to change the date before posting it after the conference…

prashant saxena Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 3:29 am
Vinod,
In your article, you mentioned only her scintillating beauty. You have that in common with Khushwant Singh that you seem to find Pakistani women irresistible. maybe you should keep such unprofessional comments out of a “serious” discussion.

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
@prashant saxena
I you are the same item whom I known, it would suffice to say that what’s wrong in calling a beautiful woman beautiful on Valentine’s Day? And what is unprofessional about it my dear?

Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
The gentleman has been in Pakistan long enough to know that probably she is as good at doing that item on the pole as he is. It cetainly is professional , if that is the profession.

usman chaudhry Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 8:50 pm
@praveen saxena
i wish you could have come up with something good.

Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 11:26 am
@Usman Chowdhry

I agree. Could have been avoided. My Regrets.

usman chaudhry Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@praveen saxena
landed perfectly well this time.

Rajiv Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 12:08 am
The first important thing to understand is that
1. Its the policy of Pak state ( army/ISI and its begging wing ) to feed anti-USA propoganda to its populace. Its done through numerous ISI/state paid columnists, army-officers-turned-columnists, diplomats in the media.

2. Then the Pak administration ( ISI/army/civilian accomplices ) , tells USA , see how rabid and anti-America Pak populace is. If it were not for us, only Allah knows what these guys would do to you. Give us bilions to keep them away from you.
Vijay Kumar

Vinodji,

I am saying this out of serious concern. When our scribes met Maleeha Lodhi, Sherry Rehman and even Benazir Bhutto they would get floored and forget where our interests lay. In fact I remember one “serious” columnist lavishing praise on Maleeha Lodhi, even though she said everything possible against India.

Similarly Indira Gandhi’s or for that matter Priyanka’s charisma or even Arundhati’s so called charisma is somewhere guided by how the English press percieve them compared to say, Mayawati.

Having said that, Hina Rabbani is an unknown person in my eyes. Hope she does NOT fall into the minefield laid by kayani, hafeez Saeed or even Qureshi….

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Well, your eyes— you have already said as to who resides there? It will take you a few summers to make room there for others ) Yes, of course, brainy and beautiful women leave a lasting impression. Am surprised you are mingy in accepting Indira Gandhi’s world image and that of Vijaylaxmi Pandit. Remember how Indira would treat Nixon and the choicest abuses he reserved for her out of spite and an inferiority complex? She epitomised all the strengths of a triumphant nation in the interviews she gave to international media after the B’desh War.
The three woman you have named from Pakistan have been India’s formidable rivals in the world fora. We’d be better off empowering more and more of our women at every level in our society. Even if I disagree with Arundhati, I admire her for her cerebal qualities. Among the solid parliamentarians that we have today, I rate Brinda Karat and Sushma Swaraj pretty high. They have a commanding presence like Shabhana Azmi and the late Smita Patil on the screen.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
@ Vinod

I am not stingy in acknowledging Indira Gandhi’s world presence, which was much better then her domestic performance in the latter part of her rule! In fact as a school boy I read with considerable mirth an article by Henry Kissinger where he described how Indira’s presence and imperial haugtiness would unnerve Richard Nixon and he would reel out a string of expletives once he came out of his meetings with her !

However, I wish she had used the immense goodwill to do more than just propping up her sons…

And there lies the trouble with women, once they know they have a fan club. Brinda Karat, unleashed a lie by accusing Swami Ramdev of using human bones in his medicines. And then used all her feminist guiles to convince the press about the same.

While Mayawati on an ego trip uses the money of the poor and the dispossesed to make statues about herself.

So in the end, women can be fantastic or can be a disaster. In case thye get unchecked power… which they can because of feminsit guiles…

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
@ Vinod Sharma,

And as far as three of the Pakistani woman stars goes, they ended up defending their own enemies, when they took on India.

— Benazir was blown up in a blast by terrorists

— Sherry Rehman has been sidelined by her parety since she critisiced the blasphemy laws and lives in hiding, after being advised by th PM to leave Pakistan

— Maleeha Lodhi is embroiled in controversy including kickbacks..

vinod sharma Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
@Vijay Kumar
This comment wouldn’t be appreciated by the one who resides in your eyes.

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Rajiv

Here are some facts on the case, presumably written by Najam Sethi, a most prominent, sane Pak editor and posted by someone in comments section in Washington times.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/11/AR2011021101625_Comments.html

FACT AND FICTION OF DAVIS CASE

By Najam Sethi

THE case of Raymond Davis has outraged the imagination and sentiment of Pakistanis mainly because of a distortion of key facts by powerful sections of the Pakistani media in which, as a keen blogger put it, “ a mix of hyper- patriotism, half- baked information, sincere ignorance and arrogant bluster hold sway.” It has also become a vicious ping pong game between the PPP government in Islamabad and the PMLN government in Punjab in which each is trying to get brownie nationalist points from the people regardless of the consequences for national security. Ominously, though, it has soured a troubled relationship between Pakistan and the US who claim to be “ strategic partners” in the region. Consider.

Fiction: Mr Davis “ murdered” two Pakistanis by shooting them in the back. This shows he was not threatened by them and therefore was not acting in self- defense.
They were not robbers because their guns were licensed.

Fact: Two men on a motorbike armed with unlicensed pistols came alongside the car that Mr Davis was driving and signaled him to stop. When he didn’t, they overtook him and swerved in front of him, forcing him to stop. As they turned to confront him, he aimed his Glock 9 mm pistol and expertly shot them through the windscreen in self defense.
Then he stepped out of the car and took pictures as evidence of the abortive attempt on his person. The autopsy report showed that at least four out of the seven bullets had hit the gunmen in the front, indicating they were facing him with handguns.

Two reports filed by citizens who had been robbed earlier in the day by the same two men were filed at police stations, proving that they were criminals. Four cell phones, including a stolen iPhone, were found on their persons.
Fiction: Mr Davis is not a diplomat. His visa doesn’t say he is a diplomat. The Foreign Office has not listed him as a diplomat.
Hence he cannot claim diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Conventions of 1961 and 1963. Therefore he should be tried for willful murder of two Pakistani citizens.
Fact: Mr Davis has a Diplomatic Passport.

His visa application by the US State Department to the Pakistan Embassy in Washington DC of 11 September 2009 lists him as a Diplomat who is on Official Business.
On January 27, the day of the incident, the US embassy in Islamabad submitted a list of accredited diplomats in which the name of Davis was present.
Fiction: Mr Davis cannot claim immunity from prosecution under the Vienna Conventions.

Fact: He can. His diplomatic status is confirmed.

All diplomats can claim immunity from criminal proceedings regardless of the gravity of the crime. At least three senior Pakistani diplomats have claimed such in the past: Ambassador to Spain in 1975, Haroon ur Rashid Abbasi, claimed immunity when heroin was discovered in his suitcase; Military Attaché M Hasan claimed it in London when he was nabbed having illicit sex in a public place; and First Secretary A Cheema claimed it in 2001 after Nepal police discovered RDX explosives in his house in Kathmundu. Cases abound in the world, the most famous being the shooting of a police constable, Yvonne Fletcher, in London in 1984 and the wounding of 11 others by staff of the Libyan Embassy. An American diplomat in Islamabad last year was involved in a traffic accident in which one Pakistani was killed. He claimed and got diplomatic immunity.

Fiction: Mr Davis was not in any imminent danger of grievous injury, let alone kidnapping or death, from the two young men. So he committed a murder and cannot plead self- defense.

Fact: A murder necessitates a motive. What motive could Mr Davis have in killing two unknown people in broad daylight if they didn’t threaten him? More to the point, Westerners, especially Americans, risk all manner of threats while in Pakistan because of vapid anti- Americanism in the country and opposition to US violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty by US Drones. Here is a litany of attacks on foreigners in the last thirty years. In 1979, an mob enraged by a terrorist attack on the Ka’aba in Mecca falsely attributed to America by Ayatollah Khomeini attacked the US embassy in Islamabad and set parts of it on fire, killing two Americans; in 2002 a US diplomat and her daughter were killed by a terrorist attack on a church in Islamabad; the US consulate in Karachi was attacked in 2002 and 2006, leaving 16 dead, including two Americans; in 2003, the US embassy in Islamabad was attacked, two people were killed; in 2008, a restaurant in Islamabad was bombed, killing four US diplomats; in 2008, the US Principal Officr in Peshawar was attacked; in 2008, the Marriot Hotel was bombed and two foreigners were killed; an aid worker was killed in Peshawar in 2008 and the US Consulate was attacked, leaving 8 dead. In addition, Iranian diplomats have been killed or kidnapped by sectarian terrorists since 1990, UN and Chinese workers have been kidnapped and the Sri Lankan cricketers..

——————————————————————————————————————————–

The above factual write-up, is far more accurate than most foctional, half-baket and incorrect stories put out in the media by Pakistan’s dishonest and vile administration/ISI.

[Reply]
Rajiv

The Raymond Davis affair may help open the eyes of US adminitsrations, regarding thenature, character and ‘fitrat’ of the Pak state. India should be aware that if Pak fails tomaintain minimal adherence to Geneva conventions on handling diplomatic personnel with its largest donor what fate would await India if it engaged this dirtiest entity on earth.

Mr Najam Sethi is right, that Pak is prisoner of its own state sponsored propoganda against its largest donor and in his words the Raymond Davis affair ” become a vicious ping pong game between the PPP government in Islamabad and the PMLN government in Punjab in which each is trying to get brownie nationalist points from the people regardless of the consequences for national security”

Its fun watching it.

[Reply]
Rajiv

Question for Mr Sharma
——————————————

On what basis, other than his own imagination, did you conclude that the robbers ( allegedlly ISI men who were robbing people for added income ) were anything else but robbers, when it has been widely reported in the Pak press and the Punjab police records show that

“Two reports filed by citizens who had been robbed earlier in the day by the same two men were filed at police stations, proving that they were criminals. Four cell phones, including a stolen iPhone, were found on their persons.”

A doctors couple was robbed at the same intersection by those two robbers. They filed a complaint with police. The police recovered the robbed phones of the couple from the robbers. This much is part of public record in Pak. So from where is Mr Sharma inventing stories ??
Or are you a volunteer for army/isi administration to spread disinformation ?

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Rajiv,

I think the US runs its foreign policy a bit too much through its James Bonds and cowboys. Its first cowboty, Charlie Wilson created this mess in Afghanistan by creating a Taliban style force to take on the Soviets. The shit is now hitting Americans on the face.

Raymond Davis is a guy who is probably a Rambo style operative and once he is freed a Hollywood blockbuster on his heroics in Peshawar would be filmed.

The funny part is that Pakistanis allow themselves to be used this way. All for droplets of aid and the anti- india campaign.

The sad part is that we should fend for ourselves in this selfish world; We have a madcap neighbour which is producing nuclear weapons at the speed of light and most likely one day the nuke button will go into Hafeez Saeed’s hands….

[Reply]
Rajiv

@Vijay,
The question is

1. does Mr Raymond Davis enjoy diplomatic immunity.

The answer is Yes. ( I have the link below )

the 2nd qustion is which is not important in technical terms, but very important from a moral point is that

2. , were those to guys who approached him with guns at a busy intersection, daylight robbers and criminals ( very common at Pak traffic intersections ) ?

The answer again is Yes. Please read the report by Najam Sethi i have posted earlier.

Anyway, this is the latest from Pak from http://www.tribune.com.pk

Pakistan People’s Party’s (PPP) Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab on Monday said that Raymond Davis, the American citizen who killed two people in a crowded area of Lahore last month, enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Wahab said that diplomats as well as technical staff of foreign missions enjoy immunity under the Vienna Convention, and Raymond Davis is no exception.

Regarding claims made by the former foreign minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, that he had refused to grant a diplomatic visa to Raymond Davis, the information secretary said that Qureshi had violated the party’s discipline by making those claims.

She said that the government has to handle this case with care as the United States is the largest donor of foreign aid to Pakistan.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi, who was dropped from the cabinet when a new, smaller cabinet was announced last week, is said to have annoyed the party leadership “over his divergent opinion on the Raymond Davis issue”.

——————————————————————————————————————–

Lesson for India.
Whats the point in engaging this most dirty and criminal entity called Pak ?

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Rajiv,

I am not sure that Raymond Davis actually came in as a diplomat. However the fact is had he done the same thing in India, the government would have at least extracted an assurance from the US that they would punish him under the American laws.

But….

Pakistan is the American slave of pre Lincoln era. And Maalik ki sewa usko karni padegi…

My concern is

a) We should cultivate some lobbies in Pakistan to take care of our interests like its nuclear arsenal

b) Make sure that US finally dismembers Pakistan as Rabert Blackwill and co are aiming to

[Reply]
Rajeev Reply:
February 14th, 2011 at 8:52 pm
“However the fact is had he done the same thing in India, the government would have at least extracted an assurance from the US that they would punish him under the American laws.”

Are you serious? Did you see how Indian govt. released Rahat Fateh Ali under Pakistani pressure.

As far as Davis is concerned, if he has diplomatic immunity, pakistan should respect Vienna convention. He has committed a crime (being a diplomat) so let him be punished as per procedures.

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 14th, 2011 at 9:13 pm
Vijay Kumar,

If India can allow the “acid Rambo”, David Anderson, of the Bhopal Gas Tragedy infamy go scot free after his company had killed 25,000 people, Pakistan can easily allow this Davis go under diplomatic immunity. after all, there is really no value for human life in Pakistan as there is not in India too.

But, from all indications, Pakistan is hurtling towards its pre-ordained self destruction and it is not inclined to stop and think of the consequences of its refusal to grant diplomatic immunity to Davis. whether he already had it is now a moot point. Even a discussion on whether his assailants were robbers or ISI agents too is now academic. What matters now is really how much the US is willing to stake Obama’s reputation on this issue. By the looks of it, the US is unlikely to blink in a hurry.

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 14th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
The US media has underplayed the story so far. So its a small isue in USA. If the same had happeneded in Iran or North Korea, the US media would be all over the story.
However, this incident is an eye opener for dumb, idiot US adminitsrtaions about the character and nature of a state based on Jinnah’s politics of religious identitry and fed and nurtured by hateful, false propoganda over last 60 years. Its a crippled entity , any engagement with it will bring only misery.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 11:02 am
@ Shenoy,

You said that “Even a discussion on whether his assailants were robbers or ISI agents too is now academic.”

My quesion is is there any difference between robbers and ISI agents?:D

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 11:05 am
@ Shenoy,

As far as freeing Anderson goes the blame squarely goes on Arjun Singh the sate Chief Minister and the then PM RG. Having said that, one must remember that many engineers and safety oficers of the state departments should have shifted out the gas plant from the city. Neiother did they take any interet in the danger signals which were coming out fo the old and damaged plant and machinery.
usman chaudhry

An interesting and somewhat different prespective speaking the dubious case of Raymond Davis can be found at:

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff02082011.html

Usman
Pakistan

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 2:27 am
I read the article. As with anything else, from 9/11 to Mumbai attack, there are always conspiracy theories and a “different perspective”.

Bye the way, all embassies, carry spies ( including US embassies, Indian or Pak enbassy ) in the garb of technical or diplomatic staff. How Mr Davis acquired diplomatic immunity or what he was doing in Pakistan do not seem to me very relevent here.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 9:04 pm
that’s the million dollar question!!!! easily sidelined. “what was he doing there??” with fake registered vehicle and gagetory. go for the substance rajiv. this opens the inside story linking to further investigation; shootout at lookhandwala and killing is the end part of first episode. pakistan can take good stance and an opportunity will be left begging if this matter will be dealt softly.

on a separate note:
what impression do you have about 9/11? just asking no harsh intentions.

[Reply]
Rajiv

————————————————————————————————-
The other “Osama” living under Pak state protection.
————————————————————————————————–
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dawoods-second-daughter-ties-knot-with-Pak-American/articleshow/7498407.cms

MUMBAI: Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim’s second daughter secretly tied the knot with a Pakistani-American in Karachi’s tony Clifton area recently.

Mahreen married Pakistan-born Ayub on February 4 and the reception was held at Dawood’s palatial bungalow a day later.Sources said the wedding was a low key affair and that a few selected guests including some Pakistan army and ISI officers attended it. “It was a closed door affair at Dawood’s palatial bungalow,” a source said. Sources said a number of cars were parked outside Dawood’s bungalow that day.

Former Pakistan cricketer Javed Miandad, whose son is married to Dawood’s first daughter, Mahroof, attended the wedding with his family. “Besides the Miandads, Dawood’s brothers and Chhota Shakeel were also present at the wedding,” the source said. A few businessmen also attended the wedding that was earlier scheduled for May. “The date was changed after Dawood suffered a massive heart attack a few months ago. He had been insisting on Mahreen’s early wedding after recovering,” the source said.

Top Mumbai police officers say Dawood is living under ISI’s protection. He has been living under a fake identity in Karachi since 9/11 when the US declared him a global terrorist. Pakistan government had repeatedly denied Dawood’s presence in the country.

Dawood is wanted for masterminding the March 1993 Mumbai serial blasts, the second biggest urban terrorist attack in the world after 9/11.

Dawood, who rose rapidly through the ranks of Mumbai underworld, escaped to Karachi after engineering the Mumbai serial blasts that killed 300. The Indian government has repeatedly asked Pakistan to extradite him.

Dawood managed to take his family — wife, four daughters and a son as well as certain close associates and their families — out of Mumbai. One of his daughters died of malaria in Pakistan. Dawood has not visited Dubai after 9/11, from where he controlled his illegal operations for a long time.

———————————————————————————————————–

Is India so dumb to engage such a filthy entity ?

[Reply]
Ashok

USA should be thankful to Pakistan “establishment” that no one claimed Davis committed blasphemy when he shot in self defense and tried to leave the scene after taking photos of guns with dead robbers and crowd gathered.

Had he been charged with blasphemy then entire Pakistan would want to make him an example, Immunity or no immunity,

[Reply]
Pankaj#1

@ every body;
why such a hoopla at Davis. Do you think that present pakistan is a normal state? No body agrees to that. so in such abnormal state, when GOP, Army, right wings in pakistans are hell bent on subvertng normalcy, even if, Davis is a spy, when thretened and kill his adveersaries, it is fully justifiable. either have guts to keep pakistan in order, or be ready to accept such aberrations. At least America has guts to send his man to deal with such problems, what India has? Jankhe.

[Reply]
Rajeev Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 9:21 am
Jankhe = Manmohani Singh

[Reply]
Sarvesh

This story is running in media over one week, but still it is not clear that whether Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity or not? according to US press, he has and going by Pakistani press he doesn’t.

Well, whatsoever is the case Mr. Davis is really courageous man, he shot down two robbers/ISI agents with perfection, giving them no chance to retaliate.If they were robbers then Pakistan should immediately release Mr. Davis with gratitude and if deceased were ISI agents then India should honour this man because, this was the work our agencies should have been doing after 26/11.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Rajiv,

Dawood is the real face of Pakistan. What stops the Indian foreign office from immediately contacting the Pakistanis right now on Dawood’s presence as the Pakistanis always claim that they don’t know where he is…

[Reply]
Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
One mask is off the ” Aman Ki Asha’. Whereas for some our dreamers it is Aman Ki Asha , for the players from the other side it is “Dollars Ki Asha”. For the Mahesh Bhats and others of his tribe, Vineeta Maliks , Raahat Khans are sales promotion devices , who open the doors to a lucrative Market in Pakistan and elsewhere , of their wares.,
Now as for the remark of Mr Vinod that
” At least on paper, she will be Pakistan’s principal interlocutor in the talks. But the men guiding her will be from the fauj which, one is told by GoI, is on board this time for the dialogue. ”

Is that true and credible? It may look credible if we see some signs of a shift in Pakistan itself . None at the moment .
For some of us the Govt of India itself raises apprehensions Their choice of the Interlocutors in Kashmir made us apprehensive , and our fears were not without basis. The Govt’s move to prevent the BJP ‘S Campaign with the National Flag , strengthens our suspicions. Let us see what happens.

Dawood Ibrahim. While we blame the Pakistani Establisment for protecting him , what about his protectors in India. What about those in India ,who still share Revenue with him. What about identifying those under whose political patronage he rose to such heights. Have they terminated their friendship with him or some sort of sly relationship continues.
For some of us this is more threatening than the protection he gets from the Pakistani ISI.

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 1:34 am
@Vijay,
India has severel times given Dawood’s Karachi address and also listed all the Passport No’s of the Passports that Pak has given him with which he used to earlier travel abroad.

Its like giving Al-Qaida the address of Osama and asking them to capture him.

[Reply]
http://incorrectpolitically.wordpress.com/ Akhilesh

Vinod Ji,
In refernece to Ms. Khar and the way you introduced her ( scintillating beautiful lady ), perhaps what many of the readers are implying is that if Ms. Khar is intelligent then she will use her beauty to good effect.

Because she is beautiful and because she has a pedigreed education, she will find many more takers for her viewpoint in Indian TV if she plays well. You are a panelist in many such discussions – so I visualise you cherfully leading her on as she build scase of Pakistan on Indian TV in coming months. That is, if she is intelligent and plays her beauty well !!!

BTW, I do agree with some commentators about your special affection for Pakistani women. I know personally of a case regarding Ms. Sirmed

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@Akhilesh
Who’s Ms Sirmed? Pl give more details.

[Reply]
Akhilesh Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 1:47 am
Ms. Marvi Sirmed

[Reply]
Rajeev Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 2:18 am
Is it Marvi Sarmad?

vinod sharma Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
Yes I do know Marvi and her husband Sirmed Manzoor who is a fellow activist in South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA). In fact the two of them were in deep trouble recently over an innocuous meeting they had in India with a retired police officer through a journalist friend (not me) — about which Marvi tweeted to all her friends. Their house were burgled and their computer, lap top and other things taken away.
But in what context are you bringing them into this debate? They are a couple who have been an integral part of the civil rights movement in Pakistan — including the opposition to the ban on facebook over some obscurantist issue. They are very dear friends of mine.
ram autar

US Misinformation: International Law is Clear that Diplomatic Immunity is Not Absolute

This Can’t Be Happening ,

Lahore, Pakistan–You cannot open the TV, or read a paper here without more and more news about Raymond Davis and his murderous act. His killing on Jan. 27 of two young Pakistanis has created international waves, too, plunging the Pakistan-America relationship into stormy waters.

A great deal has been written about the case: Raymond Davis’s employment status, whether he is a diplomat or not, who his victims were and what led to their demise at his hands, and finally whether or not Davis can be detained and ultimately tried under the Pakistani Law.

Interestingly though, nobody in the media has made a study of the Vienna Diplomatic Coventions that discuss diplomatic immunity. The convention of 1961 gets cited routinely by the American government, which claims it grants all diplomatic workers immunity from prosecution.

But that claim overstates the case. The actual document — never actually quoted — is more nuanced.
Yasmeen Ali

A friend notes, “The issue is not who the two Pakistanis were. The real issue is: The US media has confirmed what the US government is denying: Davis runs a private security firm. He is a military contractor. He is registered in Colorado as the owner of a security firm.” He says the questions that should be asked are: What was his real job in Lahore/Islamabad/Peshawar? And can a diplomats carry an unlicensed gun?”

This same friend also suggests that the indentity of the two Pakistani shooting victims — according to a number of Pakistani reports, and to several in the US, including ABC News, they were working for Pakistani intelligence and were tailing Davis — is a distraction. He says the real issues are what Davis was doing here and secondly, can a so-called “technical advisor”–the term the US State Department finally settled on to describe his job — claim diplomatic immunity?

I would argue, though, that the real issue is a general ignorance concerning what diplomatic immunity is, and whether such immunity extends to all acts of any nature committed by an individual, even if that individual does qualify as a diplomat. All other questions are a distraction.

The concept of diplomatic rights was established in the mid-17th century in Europe and since then came gradually to be accepted throughout the world. These rights were formalized by the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which protects diplomats from being persecuted or prosecuted while on a diplomatic mission.

However, if we examine the specific articles of that Vienna Convention of 1961, some interesting facts emerge.

First, Article 29 states that the person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving or host state shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity. But those, like the US State Department and Davis’s Pakistani attorney, who demand the release of Raymond Davis on this ground, have obviously neglected to read, or don’t want others to read, the related articles within the Convention which strip away any absolute blanket coverage under the guise of “diplomatic immunity” for visiting or appointed diplomats.

Article 38 of the Vienna Convention 1961 states that except where additional privileges and immunities have been specifically granted by the host State, a diplomatic agent who is a national of or permanently resident in that State shall enjoy only immunity from jurisdiction, and inviolability, in respect of official acts performed in the exercise of his functions.

The above article clearly differentiates between an act carried out as part of his official duties and those done as a personal act. Any actions done personally and outside the ambit of official consular duties shall not be covered by “diplomatic immunity.”

Article 37 of the 1961 convention goes on to reinforce the above limitation on immunity by stating:

…Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties.

The question then becomes not whether or not those murdered were Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) agents, robbers or fruit sellers, but whether Davis did or did not have diplomatic immunity, but whether his fatal shooting of the two men was conducted while he was involved in performing his official duties.

If the answer to that question is no, Raymond Davis cannot claim diplomatic immunity.

The US State Department is also carefully avoiding mentioning a later treaty, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963. That treaty, which extends and further clarifies, and where there may be a conflict, would supersede the earlier treaty, states in Section II, Article 41 in its first paragraph regarding the “Personal inviolability of consular officers”:

Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

The law here would seem to be quite clear. If Davis was in Lahore on anything other than official consular business, and if he killed two people “in cold blood” as the Lahore prosecutor has stated, then legal authorities in Pakistan are absolutely within their rights under the Vienna Conventions to be holding him for trial.

If he is released before a judicial determination regarding his claim of immunity, or if he is found to be properly detained but is released anyhow before standing trial for the killings, it would be not because he has diplomatic immunity, but because of political pressure from the US. But that would be something that is outside of the realm of the law.

Yasmeen Ali is a Pakistani attorney who lives in Lahore. She offered this article, which ran originally in the Pakistan Observer and in her own blog, PakPotpourri2, exclusively to ThisCantBeHappening! for publication in the US

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Ram Autar,

Oh u bore !

Why are you back… nobody wants u here!!

Oh ! By the way how much is the ISI payying you? I believe that these days they pay their low grade employees in packets of charas or fake Indian currency… Hope you do something better in life…

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
@Vijay Kumar
Pl ignore him. If you’d interact he’d feel important and continue spewing silly stuff here.

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
@ Vinod;
for your this comment, I am ready to forgive you many errors of judgement you have made in past. and by the way, I also appreciate pakistani beauty, not for any pervert idea but as a thing of beauty is joy for ever. Please do not give me title of glad eye, as you have done for Shenoy and pilloried him in many posts.

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 15th, 2011 at 9:10 pm
Vijay Kumar,

Ram Fake autar may be a bore,
he may be a naye Mussalmani,
he may be unwanted on this blog,
gate-crashing into civilised society discussions.

But, look at the enormous amount of “research” that has gone into his various posts,
Look at the enormous love he has for the Indian dalits and Muslims,
Look at the jihadi fervour he has shown even while donning the sheep skin of Ram autar.

For these things alone we must wish him: May he be liberated from the clutches of syphillis-ridden prostitutes of his native Pakistan, may he enjoy all the 72 virgins of his choice in jannat.

But, for heaven’s sake Ram fake autar, leave us Hindustanis alone.

[Reply]
ram autar Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 7:41 am
because u have no awnser.apni dhapli apna raag.main preoccupation of brhmns of india is eating, entertainment, sex (kamasutra), and cheating. A life of perpetual pleasure and leisure.this will not be disturbed by writings ,then why so much worry.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry

A very well composed and complex write. Although, some fell for the ending part of the blog.

Indeed, not only this critical issue has created re shuffle in foreign office within Pakistan but also stand a pivotal point in further relations between the two countries. The shock waves pierce multi tier. Why?

- Blockade of aid and supplies. Very obvious.
- Cold relations and more drone attacks. Possibility of increase – thus more anger in the hearts and minds.
- PPP losing on diplomatic front creating difference with provincial government (Punjab) and within after Qureshi’s loss. A little hiccup in shuffle could loose the momentum on foreign affairs.
- National Security. Again federal gov and fauj factor.
- Growing pressure on courts. SC could be asked to intervene.

BUT a big issue that lies ahead – would institutional clash over throw the government. A repeat sequel of Tunisia and Egypt uprising.

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 12:23 am
@ Usman;
Welcome back, It is good to have someone with coherent thoughts, instead of people with habit of ranting, and more important, people ready to listen. Even as an adversary, I will welcome intelligent discussion with open mind and reasonable thoughts.
It is certain that Davis guy is a trained spy, mercenary, agent or whatever. what he is doing in Pakistan? This is important to answer. It is impossible for a firangi to visit pakistan and no information about him with intelligence agency, at least in present times. Some body has also pointed out, that he may not be alone, but part of a team. So, what he is doing here on his own volition or he has been invited. It is pertinent to know that there was a proposal to have USA guards for Zardari. so insecure your politicians now feel. So there is tacit support from Army as well. The feared Army of Pakistan, more fearsome for Pakistanis then Indians, as has been documented by many pakistani authors in various reports and Novels. So, even pakistani army is not comfortable with Jihadis in pakistan, so wide spread support they enjoy. Lower ranks of every security agency has been infiltrated by jihadists as supported by so many plots hatched agains senior pakistani officers by lower rank soldiers and agents. So, this organ of pakistani state has also been neutralized by jihadists. Two pillars gone. Least said about media, both prints and electronic is better, 3 down. Fourth pillar, judiciary, Lawyers, hundreds of them, ready to defend killer of Taseer, no body for state. Repeated support from judiciary for Jihadists by setting them free, easy bails for them and working at cross purpose with GOP at every turn of event. 4 down. So what is happening there? world is justifyably worried. Pillar of strength, Pakistani Army is, looks like dispised by Jihadists, as number of suicide attacks.
This reminds me of little aside, few years back, a Car had an accident with a motorcyclist in Delhi, motor cycle was smashed badly. An old man about 75 years of age came out of the car and introduced himself as General J.S. Arora, same General of Bangladesh war fame. Motorcyclist, not only said sorry to cause trouble to general but touched his knee. This is how Army is perceived in India. Our Institutions still work for citizens and not just rule over them.
Please think on prevailing conditions in pakistan and come to a conclusion. untill your predatory ruling elites do not work for Awam, things will go on deteriorating. This is a cause of worry for Indians too and not an occasion of joy.

[Reply]
ram autar Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 7:49 am
shenoy i am not against brhmns but against brhmnsmbecause Brahminism is, , the root cause of our poverty, corruption, exploitation, backwardness, illiteracy, and more than anything hate-mongering resulting in reckless violence.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@ Rajiv

To take on Dawood, RAW had inculcated Chotta Rajan at on stage. However after the change in government in 2004 Congress went after Chotta Rajan. We can only kill a terrorist under protection of a terror sponsoring state by using a terrorist. That’s it.

Of course Chotta Rajan did manage to bump of some of some of Dawood’s assosciates in Nepal, like MP Mirza Dilashad.

Toady’s news says that Lakhvi may go scot free. As it is he is probably enjoying a five star treatment in Pakistani jails.

At the end of it we have to keep in mind that Pakistan is basically a mafia organisation and with an agenda dictated by its wahabbis and dawoods. When we talk to Pakistan, we must have a strategy to strike at this inner core of this Mafia-state…

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 6:34 pm
True. Pak state is criminal to its core. The ISI, army and its civilian puppets epitomize dishonesty and every form of unethical conduct. Engaging them is like doing business with the most lowly criminal. There history and conduct shouts that every moment. Its written all over the wall. Can the foolish and dumb among Indians ( most of them in media and government ) read it ?

Rajeev Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Manmohan Singh gave a very dismal press conference. After looking at his answers, it seems that his helplessness and love for PM seat is true cause of UPA loot.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Rajeev,

You should have guessed why the press conference was restricted to ONLY TV news editors. Even our very own Vinod Sharma was excluded, even after knowing his CV. It was because the PM knows that the TV is totally committed to the congress party and the hand-picked editors would not ask pointed or embarrassing questions.

The first question by Arun Poorie (India Today) about why, knowing about Raja’s fraud/scam from 2007, he entrusted him with the golden goose in 2009 also, elicited a very long, boring, convoluted answer, throwing no light on the question. However, the PM made it amply clear that he has no power against powerful satraps and the all powerful congress boss.

Throughout the press conference he was very anxious to put the blame at the door of coalition politics. On the only occasion, when Arnab Goswami asked him about his own culpability in the S-band scam, his press advisor silenced Arnab in no uncertain terms and deflected the PM from answering the question.

No editor asked any question which was out of line, out of character and critical of the congress party.

(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
@Shenoy Saheb

Sir, I think only Mr. Arnab Goswami came out with flying colours for having done a good job at the press ( though restricted to tv anchors only) conference. The press advisor to the PM begged of him to show courtesy and not interrogate the PM. That was so when the PM got overwhelmed by his intensity and urge for knowing the reasons for the failure of PM in not being able to assert his authority with Raja. It is indeed a mystery why the PM did not act and put his foot down when Raja was adamant in following his own agenda. Why the PM did not act as strong as when he asserted strongly for the nuclear bill in the Parliament?
BNA

Saarthak Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 4:35 am
Yes, I quite agree. Arnab Goswami really shone…and that made me watch his neshour program later in the nigh where Sharma ji was also one of the panelists. It was a fairly managed show by Arnab..with a good panel and tough questions. You can watch the first 26 minutes here: http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Is-PM-convincing-on-fight-against-corruption—1/videoshow/4365440.cms

usman chaudhry Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 1:18 am
Hello Mr Pankaj,

Sorry for being late in reply. I see the point you make and is deeply concerning especially for the populace of Pakistan and for you guys as well.

I’m not aware of your sources regarding proposal for President Zardari and neither heard of it, but security issue is high here. Rather, the proposal was set by American diplomats working in embassy especially after the bombings on american consulate in Peshawar. The US ambassador had summoned assistance seeking approval for invitation of private security firm from US (DynCorp etc) for which flock of visas were issued. There activities were suspicious when suicidal bombings were high in 2009. Early start of previous year red alert signals were issued against them. Those under the disguise of providing security were asked to leave, failing to abide by warnings would have to face severe consequences. This is more closer to reality atleast im aware of then the picture you drew.

The jehadi/fundamentalist element is a different story especially those concerning with two extremist groups who have their support coming from tribal areas boundring Afghanistan. Drone attacks is a major cause to increase anti-american feeling as they see it happening along side Pak army taking on them so that is the reason we witnessed attacks against military installation and security. Yet again with the help of army large masses were displaced internally in order to take strong military operation against militancy. So army is not down and out the way you see it. Support and backing is still there in the hearts and mind of people of Pakistan. I remember cricketers Shahid Khan Afridi and Younas Khan, both of them happen to be from KP had attributed the victory of T20 World cup 2009 for the army of Pakistan. This is also the way army is percieved in our country.

I would have to agree with you on the ailing situation of security and choas. This leaves not only the political class but people like me too to step forward defend and introspect. Would end on a better note for lasting peace both within and outside.

Usman
Pakistan

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 3:26 am
Thanks Usman;
Yours was a very restrained reply and I appreciate that. As a neighbour, agar aap ke yahan Aag lagi hai to hamare yahan bhi phail sakti hai. That was my concern, pointing out chaos in pakistan was in that vein. I wish well for pakistan but for that you have to live in real world, not a make believe world. Good quality education, without any hatred in it for any body, Science and such disciplines will take your people towards progress, otherwise it is gloom and destruction. India is solving it mega problems, slowly but surely. Except for deep corruption( and that is no small matter), Indians are progressing. The statistics provided by your compatriots, may be true, but Indian policies are nibbling at the problems and in due course of time things will Improve. I remember one incidence, where a muslim youth, IT guy, Name some peerbhoy, from Pune, before he was lured by Bhatkal, was earning 19 lakhs rupees per year. that is very handsome salary, by even indian standards. So you see, education and secularism will take you forward. I wish that kind of change in pakistan and not the frothing mobs on the street.
Hope you understand.

(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
Hello Mr. Usman
Well all said and done, the Pakistan govt. seemingly is handling the Davis case quite well. For once it has confronted USA quite well and apparently seems not to be cowed down by so many threats from USA. .It has rightly taken a position to explain that the matter is sub-judice and as such is helpless to intervene at this stage after the courts have taken over the case. The US Democrat leader on a mission to Pakistan to negotiate the release of Mr. Davis has now gone back and is counseling patience to people back home. The strategy is clear. Drag the case for some time till the political sting is taken out of it. Then release quietly Mr. Davis. There is no denying the fact that ultimately Pakistan will release Davis but only after Pakistan had its pound of flesh. Neither Pakistan army nor the govt. can annoy USA for long even on this count. There is no doubt about the identities of shooter as well as the victims, though ,in general, that is still a matter of speculation for good reasons. But the way the Pakistan govt. is pursuing the case, going by the sentiments of the religious groups is worth appreciable.
Regards
BNA

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
@ Dr ANand,

Probably the Pakistan government will use Islam to close the mouth of the protesters in the Davis case.

They will just say that as per a certain clause in Sharia, the killer may pay so much blood money or something and fly of to Hawaii!!

Just wait and watch !
Mahesh

Usman,
You said :
“BUT a big issue that lies ahead – would institutional clash over throw the government. A repeat sequel of Tunisia and Egypt uprising.”
Several things – Masses democratic aspirations, economic hardships, Mubarak’s dictatorial regime, Egyptian army’s refusal to act against masses – converged to create “Egyptian Situation”.
Pakistani situation appears lot more messy in comparison. And yet, your post brings in comparison with Egypt. Trying to understand the reasoning. Am I missing something here ?
Cheers,
Mahesh.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Greetings Mahesh,

Im talking about outcome of the situation. Mentioned circumstances led to over throw of Mubarak from power and may be troubles ahead for ruling PPP.

Over here im choosing “institutional clash”, followed by political differences and mass demonstration. Mind you im over looking the alliance of opposition parties in parliament. MQM who also happens to be coalition partner in province of Sindh are having differences with PPP and have hand shakes with other parties like PML-Q. If so PPP will loose its vote of confidence in the center. Dissolving the assembly or new elections is the net outcome. Same result.

This is my speculation how things come out lies in the hands of time.

Usman

[Reply]
Mahesh Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 1:13 am
Usman,
I will be a bit frank with you here.
While I can *understand* the mass demonstrations – how widespread are these ?
And even more importantly, how well articulated in their political demands ?
My basic question to you is this – are MQM , PML-Q and PPP really representing the “subjugated classes” ? How ? So far, going by the publicly available discourse – IMHO the “representational situation” for the underclasses has been dismal.
Here is what I read from the “pakistani situation” – a bunch of liberals aware of the socio-political-economic situation are trying to cry hoarse on the situation . The “mainstream politique” is fairly divorced. Somewhere – in between – the masses are realising about the raw deal they are getting. Unfortunately, there has been a abysmally low past history of articulation of economic demands that masses could harp back to. The difference between “Indian Situation” and Pakistani one is – much more pre-dominantly – that of “missing history ” of class struggles and resulting articulation in political discourse. That said, masses might still be revolting in your land as well – worrisomely in a way much more un-desired , perhaps aligning with fundamentalists who find it easier to spread their preach given the anti-american sentiment. I hate saying this but “religiously aligned” resistance might be filling in the gap where progressives should’ve been operating. And yes, Americans are trying their best -unwittingly – to ensure this happens.
- Mahesh.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 2:11 am
Mahesh,
I’m afraid in given junction the protests are not much wide spread and yes not the representation of repressed masses unlike the broad and breath of Egyptian situation. But what i say over here is from an angle of vision which we witnessed back in 2009 during reinstatement of chief justice sacked by Gen Musharaff. Supressed lawyers were taken toll by politcal parties who used it to gain their own objectives, possibly for votebank. I wish it would have been on the voice call of people. Agree with you it wasn’t, this time too would not be the same and lacks genuinity in call. I guess a genuine one would be orphan but what you say in addition to the fundamentalist who would use their means to fill in the gap is some what alarming. i believe the impression set is not all that with the jehadi element as well even though both would be driven by anti american sentiments. Educated and aware class should have an upper hand to break the shackles with a long lasting vision. A solution proposal is awaiting if you can pour some. Any stories from your side on the indian situation? As i write the end of this response i heard Bahrain is on its way as well.

usman chaudhry Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 2:19 am
please share some more lines on why would you believe that americans are trying to ensure that religiously aligned resistance should fill in?

Mahesh Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 1:42 am
@Usman,
Sorry for being a bit late in responding owing to my workplace pressures.
Responding to your post…..
You said :
” I guess a genuine one would be orphan but what you say in addition to the fundamentalist who would use their means to fill in the gap is some what alarming. i believe the impression set is not all that with the jehadi element as well even though both would be driven by anti american sentiments. ”
If I have parsed correctly – what you say here is while the anti-american sentiment (just to be clear – in case somebody from “intel…” is reading this and may feel incompetently lazy to brand this as a discussion between jehadists – anti-american here means against american policies in this part of the asia known as India and Pakistan) is widespread, the acceptance for jehadis might be overstated . Have I read it correctly ? Assuming so, my question still remains – what is filling in the space where mainstream political parties fail to represent ? Alternately, is it so that the realization and / or will is yet to be upon the masses that a political struggle is possible ?
Further you said ….
“Educated and aware class should have an upper hand to break the shackles with a long lasting vision. A solution proposal is awaiting if you can pour some. ”
Trouble is Educated and aware classes are well entrenched in their own world and mostly un-willing to take pains involved in making a difference.
Solution proposal ….. Usman, now you are making me feel like a true prophet – something that even my wife, close friends or immediate colleagues would never ever dare bestow on a lowlife being that is me.
Seriously, if you are implying that I belong to the pretentiously opinionated mass of people who feel they are in a position to advise Pakistani people on how they should conduct their affairs then we may be a bit off mark here. My comment was just a observation, sounding out a few possibilities. Nothing more, Nothing less.
You said :
” Any stories from your side on the indian situation?”
In the context of our discussion , well yes. We have had our own set of troubles with communal polity that at times would ride on the frustration amongst masses. The “Punjab problem” had aforesaid markings. Looking back – my sense is even the rise of “majoritarian fundamentalism” (aka hindu fundamentalism) during late eighties through about mid-nineties found acceptance due frustration within the middle class mostly as a result of stagnancy in economic growth and shrinking opportunities. Further more, my sense is the economic growth achieved in late nineties and during the first decade of new millenium has been a very large contributor in fading of communal polity. That said the currently prevalent consumerist culture happens to skirt several problems we are or may witness them in future falsely assuming the same economic growth rate.
Since you mentioned Bahrain – let me say this, with Egyptian situation I find myself being a bit pessimistic about the overall outcome given that the same military which enjoyed power during Mabarak’s reign continues to be the strongest force, it’s popularity notwithstanding.
For others – well by now probablly the respective governments are already alert and “managing” their situations.
Finally…
You said :
“please share some more lines on why would you believe that americans are trying to ensure that religiously aligned resistance should fill in?”
Well, no. That’s not what I meant. My point is Americans are being biggest single point recruits for jehadis through their policies. And that, in the absence of progressive resistance jehadis might actually fill in the gap.
Cheers,
Mahesh.
Rajiv

What happened in Egypt or Tunisia can never happen in Pakistan because in Pakistan

1. Its the army/ISI officers who are the biggest benefactors of the current system. Zardari, Gilani, Nawaz will come and go but the army/ISI has total control of the system and full support of the foolish masses.

The civilian politicians are just the begging wing to collect international aid for the state/army/isi.

[Reply]
Mahesh Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 1:19 am
Rajiv,
The Egyptian army has been a good beneficialry of the “status quo” ( as in Mubarak era) as well.
Quite possibly, the army was eager too to get rid of “Mubarak rot” .
It would be interesting to see how situation un-folds in Egypt about power sharing between the Army and New Civilan Polity.
Despite being in awe about the Egyptian revolution I still feel pessimistic about the overall outcome.
Cheers,
Mahesh.

[Reply]
Pankaj#1

@ every one;
I just finished reading Indonesian massacre, by Usman Ahmed, in daily times, where 3 Ahmedis were butchered by 1500 people for simply them being Ahmedis. This is the culture what pakistan has exported to Indonesia. I do not know, what our pacifists are looking for. This madness has to be crushed by all the force, this globe can summon. Otherwise it will be hell on earth.

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 8:35 am
India is a dumb state that expects Pak will prosecute 26/11 masterminds ( which is ISI ) and hand over criminal and murderer Dawood ( who is jewel in the crown of the Islamic Republic , protected by its army ) to India.

I find lot of such dumb Indians on this blog.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Vinod Sharma,

With the COngress and the PM now reluctantly agreeing to a JPC, don’t yopu think that the BJP stance and that of the internet bloggers was correct that a JPC lead corruption probe is best for this loot of 50,000 crores (CBI estimate) or 1,76,000 crores ( CAG estimate) ?

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
@Vijay Kumar
Jab Miyan Biwi Raazi Tou Kya Karega Kaazi. But I still feel that the ongoing probes and their supervision by the SC was more than adequate.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Now is the Congress the miyan or the Biwi of BJP ?

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
@Vijay Kumar
People like us my quarrel over who of the two is better. But the fact remains all politicians are bedfellows— sometimes strange, sometimes made for each other. )
(Dr.) B.N.Anand

Hello Vinod Sharma ji

I believe Raymond Davis episode has only highlighted the uncertain conditions in the streets of Pakistan when the identities of the shooter and the victims are still being speculated. Though this incident has boomeranged on the Pakistani establishment still the silver lining for Pakistan is that the matter is in the hands of judiciary. Even the diplomatic status of Davis has to be decided by the courts. The govt. will ultimately release Raymond Davis when the court announces the diplomatic immunity for him. I am sure Pakistan govt. will never release Davis on its own because of the threatening calls from the right wing extremists to bring the people on the streets. Not only Pakistan govt. but everyone at large would be scared if that happens as thast may not trigger the events of Egypt and Tunisia to be repeated in Pakistan. After all, it is not long back that President Musharraf had to leave the country because of street protests from the lawyers alone.
Sharma Saheb, I liked your describing Mr. Ghulam Mustafa Khar’ as a case of LSD in Tehmina Durrani prize winning autobiography My Feudal Lord. The author had written a novel “BLASPHEMY”. What you have to say about the characters involved in this novel? But the happenings described in the novel do depict the horrors of life led by Feudal lords in Pakistan society. Some of these happenings as described in both the books seem to be still relevant even now in that society.
Regards
BNA

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 16th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
The 2 persons shot dead were robbers. No one from Pak government or police has refuted that.
They choose to keep mum as the entire Pak state is a robber, so thats nothing new.

Those two men had robbed a doctor couple about an hour before they approached the car of the US employee. The doctor couple had registered a case with police and there stolen phones were discovered from the body of the robbers. This much is confirmed by Punjab police in various reports in the media.
What more evidense does anyone need ?
However, Pak state is master at using its thug bigoted right wing populace , ti which the state itself feeds anti-US propoganda, to extract concessions and dollars from USA while continuing to hoodwink it.

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Dear Dr Anand
Am afraid I haven’t read Blashphemy. Shall do so now. For your information, Tehmina Durrani married Nawaz Sharif’s broher Shahbaaz some years ago. I am not aware wheher they are still together. She indeed is a very interesting character— more in the mould of Shoba De as a writer.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
@ Dr Anand,

Hello Dr Anand. The movement against Gen Musharaff was aided by some political parties like PML-N and Imran Khan’s PTI along with media. Simply not alone by lawyers.

[Reply]
(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Hello Mr. Usman
That is the only mistake President Musharraf made vis-a-vis the CJP. That cost him his power and is now living in exile. That is the time when no politician would have acted that way. I think that happened because Gen Musharraf was after all not a politician. Even now he regrets for his mistake.
Thanks for telling me that politicians were also involved and joined the movement at a later stage and surely struck when the iron was hot.
Have a good day
BNA

[Reply]
yash

Vinod,

This incident also shows how much Pakistan values the life of people in NWFP and Balochistan as against the people in Punjab. When the people in the former areas are being killed by the American drones there is no cry.. but when it happens in Punjan its the opposite.

Finally its question whether Paksitan think it is just Punjab or even other regions also ?

Thanks,
Yash

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 17th, 2011 at 2:11 pm
@yash
That is one way of looking at it. But I believe that the rabid Pakistani right wing will show love for any ethinicity to spread disdain and hatred for the United States. The Americans are their enemy number one— Washington knows it but is unable to do anyting about it.

[Reply]
sankalp

@ram autar: thanx a lot for such splendid piece of information..why is the media not highlighting it..thankfully now the vienna covention makes more sense!!

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Yash

Very very important point ! In case this had happened in Peshawar or Quetta, the Pakistanis would have called the robbers/ISI snipers as Indian RAW agents and released Davis. After all in their eyes, the blood of Baluchis and NWFP wallas is a source of American aid..

[Reply]
Rajiv

This is what acclaimed commentator, Mr Babloo, has to say on this issue.

“Pakistan is a victim. Yes its a victim of its own vicious anti-USA propoganda, that the Pak state, its army and ISI through numerous agents in the media and its nominal civilian government, deliberately feeds its people. It serves a purpose. The Pak state, points to the rabid anti-US sentiments among the jihadi populace and asks US for billions of dollars to hold the anti-US sentiment from wrecking havoc. So the Pak state collects and pockets dollars from USA with the right hand, while feeding anti-US garbage to its populace with left hand. Its an arrangement that has worked perfectly for Pak so far. The near paralysis of the Pak government on the Davis issue is a product of that environment. There is a lesson for India here. If Pak can treat its master donor with such duplicity then what fait awaits India if it in any manner engages the Pak state ? The fate will be no different than that of Parliament attack, Kandhar hijacking, Kargil , Mumbai attack and numerous such attacks masterminded by the Pak state”.
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?712168

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Rajiv,

You and I may know for sure what the renegade state of Pak will do to India, but who is to convince die-hard (version VI) friends of Pakistan like SM Krishna, Mani Shankar Aiyar, Vinod Sharma, and Manmohan Singh, though it is a relief to know that Manmohan Singh may not be there for long to do much damage beyond Sharm-el-Shaikh.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
~~~~ :) :) YEDDY MORE HONEST THATN SM KRISHNA AND KUMRASWAMY :):):)~~~~

@ vINODJI AND Shenoy,

Just saw a report in today’s paper that Yedurappa only allotted 136 pieces of land and cancelled the allotments to his children.

~~ Shri SM Krishna allotted 336 pices of land during his tenure

~~ The son go humbug farmer allotted 288 pieces of land to riends and family

Vinodji, now we know Yeddy is more honest thatn our foreign minister who could spend 1 lakh a night in a five star hotel for months and months.

Don’t you think you should go after SM Krishna now for being more corrupt… or shall I say corrupter??

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Vijay Kumar,

S.M.Krishna is the Sonia Gandhi of Karnataka, zero in politics, history, culture (he is only an agricuturist), but has come to power none the less. Like Sonia Gandhi for India, he too has hoodwinked the intelligentsia of Karnataka and the national media, getting a good name.

He has diverted some of the loot into Cafe coffee Day outlets owned and run by his son-in-law. All the chief ministers of Karnataka allotted prime residential sites to the favoured, at nominal prices. NOT ONLY THAT, ALL OF THEM ALSO BENT THE RULES GOVERNING SUCH ALLOTMENTS AND HELPED THE FAVOURED ALLOTTEES TO SELL THE SITES SOON AFTER ALLOTMENT AT ASTRONOMICAL PRICES.

To my knowledge, Yeddy is the only CM in the 55 years’ life of Karnataka state who has asked his kith and kin to return the favoured VIP allotment of sites.

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Hey Paritosh,

Mahesh was probably talking about filtering out Ram Autar…
usman chaudhry

@Rajiv
what do you do for living and how much do you earn for your posts?

still await on the impression you carry on 9/11 incident.

[Reply]
Rajiv Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 8:49 am
@Usman,
Instead of wondering what I do , you should be wondering if the Pak entity can sink any lower. As far as I am concerned, Pak treachery, duplicity and all around criminality that isi/pak army and each of your administrations exhibit , have fallen below my lowest estimations.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

~~~:( ~~~~ THE NEW BETRAYAL AROUND THE CORNER ~~~~:(:(~~~

If Sharm-el Shaikh was considered a failure, we may just be in for a bigger disaster around the corner, where India will concede its strategic advantages and interests for buying peace with Pakistan. The PM seemingly is all out for peace, even to the extent of deluding himself that we can equate Samjhouta with 26/11 and LeT with right wing Hindu groups– the Rahul Ghandy line.

We should not forget– which our sofliners almost invariably do– that the civilian set up and the so called civil society can deliver little as the whip is in the hands of the army and the Let type killers.

It is important to remember that Pakistan is willing to forgo relations with India, instead of punishing Hafeez Saeed and his army; That Pakistan is willing to give up hosting its world cup matches , rather than take action against Islamic fundamantalists…..

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Vinod Sharma,

Sir, though I believe you are sincerely 19 at heart but the so called scinatallating beauty of the Pakistani women is also a generational thing!

If you go back to the early eighties, Shobha De, through her magazines had built up a massive sex appeal of Pakistani cricketers. That was the time of licence raj, and India just had no color TV, no consumer goods and contacts mattered. Just because Parmeshwar GOdrej got close to a few Pakistanis, she and Shobah De wanted to show a thumb to the rest of India, “that we have contacts and know them well…”

In that mad rush, even the horsie looking Asif Iqbal managed to snare an Indian beauty…
l
Imran Khan “thanked” Parmeshawar and India’s hosptitality with the comments that “It was a gr8 tradition with the Pathans to screw women in the warmer plains….”

Maybe he was being funny. But could he say the same about Pakistani women?

Anyway, mercifully the Indians of today find, Dhoni, Yuvraj and Sreesanth more charming thant say Asif, Kamran Akmal etc.

Not that cross border attractions don’t exist. I am sure HIna Rabbani is as attractive as any other woman…

THough as far as I am concerned, the Punjabi in me is always more attracted to the Dusky beauties of the SOuth like Asin and Shilpa….

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Vijay Kumar,

the beauties of the South can very well act Nagins (Vyjayanthi Mala, Sridevi) but basically they are harmless.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
@ SHenoy,

Well even if they bite… one can always say… “love is sweet poison…”

[Reply]
Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Vijay

Some time back we were having some fun thinking aloud on who we thought would be the best candidate for PM ship from the NDA side. Well I think Advani has started in real earnest. His apology to Sonia , on the names of Rajiv and Sonia figuring in the Report of the BJP task group, appears to be crafted to enhance his acceptability and his image as a statesman.
What sayest thou?

vinod sharma Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
@Praveen/Vijay Kumar
I have always felt that there is a bit of a statesman in Advani that does not manifest often because he places reliance on wrong people for advice or research.There is also the case of his biography where he went wrong on facts of history by saying that Bhagat Singh was hanged for hurling a bomb in the Assembly while actually it was the Sanders case that had him sent to the gallows. He wrote CPI ’s Punjab leader Satpal Dang was dead but the “dead man’ rose a day later to shout that he was alive!
I think leaders of Advani’s seniority can play a big role in keeping public discourse civil by not crossing lines without robust proof. The consequence of his letter of apology to Sonia Gandhi are too obvious to be missed. She emerges unscathed and credible in a season of defiled reputations. In contrast the whole of NDA is redfaced because Advani had lined up all leaders to release the report he has now disowned or accepted as badly flawed. What do you say?

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
@ Vinod Sharma,

First of all my congratulations to Satpal Dang… who was also a good friend of my dad and stood tall when Zia Ul haq sponsored terror hit Punjab!

Well Sonia probably never took the kickbacks… it is just all her partners and some of her MP’s . SO hopefully she would push for getting them long sentences and not just 14 days in remand…

Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Mr Vinod

I have not read that book but presuming that it may have factual inaccuracies, it is no body’s case that it is a treatise on history. It is most likely is a narration of one’s perceptions and experiences. Nothing more than that.
However coming to the instant issue, we were just mulling on the current political scenerio and what may be in store for the future.What I felt was that the Opposition in general and Advani in particular are smelling blood. Advani the seasoned politician that he is , had made a move with a political objective.
Whenever the present govt goes, and may not be soon, the entire muck , in true Congress style shall be thrust on Manmohan Singh’s lap. This poor fellow shall pay a hefty price for his love of the PM’S chair.
He is sticking on , not for any altruisrtic cause but he knows that if he goes now , all his immunities shall vanish and he would be in very serious trouble.
At the same time a lot is also going to depend on whether the so called political charm of the Sonia Gandhi and her son is intact or no longer so strong in the eyes of the average Congressman .
However you are far more experienced and in the know of things .These are just views of a lay person.
Vijay Kumar

@ Praveen.

I am ok with Advani, but the BJP or any other party can only win if the project an array of less than forty leaders to match Rahul. Thye don’t have to be from politics, but preferably professionals from the services, computers, army etc ad also kisan leaders. And not too many filmi leaders….:)

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
If one or two more people voice support for Advani in this blog, Vinodji would lose sleep for a whole week.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:26 pm
@ Shenoy and Vinodji,

Now that the trail of kickbacks is reaching the house of DMK and Kalaignar TV,

a) don’t you think that the ‘HOnest” Congress should drop him from the coalition?

b) Or should just day that for th sake of coalition politics we should let Raja get 3000 crores and DMK the balance 214 crores… and as such there is no problem as Rahul has nothing to do with this…

Sirs, we the young people of India who firmly believe in the values of Mahatama Gandhi and honesty, would want an answer and guidance from you…. Just an answer in A or B

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Vinodji,

Even while paying a left handed compliment to Advani (On NDTV’s Left, Right anad Centre) saying that “he showed A BIT of statesmanship”, you also took pot shot at him calling his autobiography a cronicle of falsehoods. In the process, you might have certainly got more browny points from the right quarters.

But, Vinodji, why has Sonia Gandhi not written to Subramanya Swami or taken him to court on the issue of foreign bank accounts? Why nobody raises even their small fingers in protest? Why don’t you ask him to apologise to Madam?

And while we are discussing Swamy and Madam, has he not proved in the supreme court that Sonia’s declaration to the election commiassion about her being a graduate from Cambridge was false and that she was just a matriculate? Was Sonia Gandhi being honest in this matter?

I know you will never counter directly but resort to callling names.

Lastly, let me tell you this, Vinodji: Advani might be excused for not knowing his history well about Bhagat Singh. But, even Mahatma Gandhi is guilty of asking the nation to forget Bhagat Singh, because according to him, what Bhagat Singh did was shameful. The congress party even today has kept Bhagat Singh where mahatma Gandhi threw him: in the dustbin of history.

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
C’mon Shenoy,

What are you implying?

Are you implying that when Our dear old chap, Vinodji was taking on Chandan, Jayanti Natrajan was watching like a school madam and actually giving him brownie marks, thinking that 89% for eloquonce, 93% for epression and 100% for loyalty ???

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Vinodji would probably ask for revaluation of the mark-sheet. Yesterday, he was very eloquent, tearing Advani’s autobiography to pieces. Fortunately, the book was nowhere near his hands, or else, it would have been a literal shredding. Even on expression, he did score well above 95% and on loyalty 110%. (it is possible, you know, under the system devised by the media head of the party in consultation with the news editors who are pro-you know who.)

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Anyway Ram Fake Autar has such an inferiority complex about his true country and real name that h cannot just reveal it here !!

As we all all know Pakistanis in the USA and West pretend that they are Indians so that they don’t get deported or get bashed up !!

C’mon you fake why dont you swear on Ajmal Kasab’s and Hafeez Saeed’s head and say that this name of yours is real !! ha h HAA HAAA !!:)

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@BV Shenoy
I think you should be discussing Advaniji’s apology. But you wouldn’t. Well, your right to do what you deem fit.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:58 pm
Vinodji,

Actually you were the one called to discuss Advani’s “apology”, but you chose, instead, to discuss his autobiography and his ignorance about Bhagat Singh.

Well, you used your “freedom of expresion” to the hilt, didn’t you, Vinodji?

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:08 pm
@BV Shenoy
Ur angry with Advani but taking it out on me. Not fair. What I said in nidhi razdan’s programme was to the effect that—- I have always felt there is a bit of a statesman in Advani which does not manifest frequently because he places reliance on bad research and unreliable sources. I mentioned the book as another example in that context.
I thought it was a valid argument. But you have problems with even that.

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
@BV Shenoy
Just an idea. Why don’t you stop watching me on TV in the interest of better interaction on this blog? I am quite surprised that you watch so much of political debate on TV. I think that time will be better spent with an ex or reigning flame. )

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Vinodji,
Honestly, I am neither angry with Advani ji nor taking it out on you. In fact, I believe Advani has shown a great amount of humility and grace, which has become extinct in the politics of the 21st century. Sonia Gandhi may be anything as a politician, but above everything else, she is first a wife, a mother and a woman and chivalry demands that she be shown respect for her feelings. May I quote Shakespeare, with your permission?

The quality of GRACE is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes
IT BLESSETH HIM THAT GIVES
AND HER THAT TAKES.

I am allowed to watch news channels only for one hour, 10-11PM, three days a week. Rest of the prime time goes to the family for reality shows like Madhuri’s.

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
@BV Shenoy
Dr Swamy is known to me very well. Hadn’t he teamed up with Sonia and Jayalalitha in 1998 to topple Vajpayee? That was much after he put the so called account on his party website.
In politics, debate mostly is about fudging facts to manipulate public opinon. Let us not fall victim to that.

Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
While going back into history , was not Subramaniam Swamy the Union Minister for Law ,Justice and Company Affairs , ( Chandrashekhar was PM) in the government which came into existence due to the support of Rajiv Gandhi.

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:42 pm
@Praveen Saxena
Exactly.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
yes,

just as they asked Ashok Chawan to resign, Kalmadi to disappear Krishna to shake hands with the devil, they can also ask the fake Dr. Kalaignar karunanidhi to get off the gravy train and get into some local train. Then the party can go tom-toming that we are the most honest party in the whole world including Pakistan< egypt and Burkina Faso.

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
@Vijay Kumar
The honest BJP has not once attacked Karunanidhi who made and backed raja as a minister despite his disrepute. Any take on that?
I am not going to rise to your barbs because I want a civilised debate even while we persist with our positions. So please don’t get into the mark sheet business. It does not help throw any light on the issue.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 6:43 pm
Vinodji,

I have a take on Karunanidhi.

The BJP knows that Karunanidhi is on his last legs in Tamilnadu politics and even without the BJP attacking him, he will fall by the wayside shortly.

Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@ Vijay, Shenoy
I like your witticism and enjoy it. it is not childish, as was suggested byVinod some time back.
But Vinod appears to be an improved person, and let us have some serious exchange also with him. Please continue with your own style of prose at the same time.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
Pankaj ji,

you are right there. Wit is Vijay’s forte and he most often uses it with devastating effect. I only do bit roles here and there just to enliven the debate.

But, thanks anyway.

ram autar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
VALENTINE GIFT TO PEOPLE OF IRAQ BY AMERICA,20 YEARS AGO,

Recalling the Slaughter of Innocents
By Ray McGovern

February 15, 2011 — Twenty years ago, as Americans were celebrating Valentine’s Day, Iraqi husbands and fathers in the Amiriyah section of Baghdad were peeling the remains of their wives and children off the walls and floor of a large neighborhood bomb shelter.

The men had left the shelter the evening before, so their wives would have some measure of privacy as they sought refuge from the U.S.-led coalition bombing campaign, which was at its most intense pre-ground war stage.

All of the more than 400 women and children were incinerated or boiled to death at 4:30 a.m. on Feb. 13, 1991, when two F-117 stealth fighter-bombers each dropped a 2,000-pound laser-guided “smart bomb” on the civilian shelter at Amiriyah.

It was one of those highly accurate “surgical strikes.” The first bomb sliced through 10 feet of reinforced concrete before a time-delayed fuse exploded, destroying propane and water tanks for heating water and food.

Minutes later the second bomb flew precisely through the opening that had been cut by the first and exploded deeper in the shelter creating an inferno.
Fire rose from the lower level to the area where the women and children were seeking shelter – and so did the boiling water. Those who did not burn to death immediately or die from the bombs’ impact were boiled or steamed to death in the intense heat.

The bombs hit toward the end of the month-long bombing campaign to “soften up” Iraq before the U.S.-led ground invasion to drive Iraqi troops from Kuwait.
The aerial bombing had begun on Jan. 17, 1991; the coalition flew over 100,000 sorties, dropping 88,500 tons of bombs. U.S. government documents show that the bombs were targeted on civilian as well as military infrastructure. They were very accurate.

This is not to suggest that the targeters knew that some 400 women and children would be killed at Amiriyah. No, it was just one of those unfortunate mistakes to which many Americans have become accustomed, even inured – whether the unintended-but-nevertheless-dead victims be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, wherever.

Indeed, the stealth aircraft and the ordnance were a proud paragon of precision performing their mission. How was the Air Force to know that the targeting information was based on spurious “intelligence” reports that the shelter had become a military command site?

Actually, Brigadier General Buster Glosson, who had overall responsibility for targeting, later commented that the “intelligence” pointing to military use was not “worth a sh_t.”

Human Rights Watch noted later in 1991:

“It is now well established, through interviews with neighborhood residents, that the Amiriyah structure was plainly marked as a public shelter and was used throughout the air war by large numbers of civilians.”

A BBC correspondent, Jeremy Bowen, was among the first TV reporters to arrive on the scene. He was given access to the site and found no evidence of military use. The Pentagon later admitted that it had known that “the Amiriyah facility had been used as a civil-defense shelter during the Iraq-Iran war” from 1980 to 1988.

So who was held responsible for this horrible “mistake”? Are you kidding? What planet did you say you were from?

A Time to Witness

In “Death of a Salesman,” Arthur Miller puts these words into the mouth of Willy Loman’s wife, Linda, words that I believe also apply to the “small” people huddled that night in the shelter in Amiriyah:

“I don’t say he’s a great man. … But he’s a human being, and a terrible thing is happening to him. So attention must be paid. He’s not to be allowed to fall in his grave like an old dog. Attention, attention must finally be paid to such a person.”

This imperative was brought home to me when my friend Art Laffin of the Dorothy Day Catholic Worker in Washington, DC, called me on Feb. 12, 2003, as a fresh wave of “coalition” attacks on Iraq loomed. Art had visited the huge underground coffin at Amiriyah. He said: “I was there, Ray; I saw it; I talked to the men.”

Art told me of a memorial liturgy to be held in front of the White House the next day, marking the 12th anniversary of the precision bombing at Amiriyah, lest the massacre be forgotten.

“You should come with us,” said Art in his soft-spoken but prophetically challenging way.

“But I am planning to write the kind of op-ed that might inform enough people about the lies upon which a new war on Iraq would be launched, that the juggernaut might be stopped,” thought I to myself. “If people only knew the truth. …”

Then Linda Loman’s words started ringing in my ears — or perhaps they were coming from somewhere else — maybe a voice emerging out of my deep respect for the likes of Dorothy Day and Art Laffin. “Attention, attention must be finally paid.”

So there we stood marking the day, and praying that somehow future days like it could be avoided. The wind-chill factor was well below zero, so there was some solace to being put in the paddy wagon. It was my first arrest and (brief) imprisonment.

And it was exhilarating. I may be biased, given the experience of this first arrest, but if you are going to risk arrest via non-violent civil disobedience, you can’t have steadier, more prophetic companions than those of the Catholic Worker.

When we went to court for trial the new war had already begun. To our surprise, the judge announced that the arresting officer had not appeared and, thus, we were free to go. I rushed to get out the door, thinking the officer might still get there.

But Art blocked my way, turned to the judge, and asked if she would allow him to explain what we were doing on Feb. 13, 2003, and why. The crowded courtroom listened intently as Art held forth for about five minutes.

“Let’s have some coffee,” said Art as he caught up to me running down the street away from the courthouse. “Have you been able to reflect on what just happened? Do you remember how that African-American woman police officer was listening to us as we shared our hopes in the paddy wagon?

“Do you think, Ray, that non-violent civil disobedience could be contagious?”

A day or two later, a short passage in Luke’s gospel leaped out at me. Jesus of Nazareth is warning fledgling “Catholic workers” about what to expect if they remain faithful:

“Countries will fight each other … there will be terrifying things coming from the sky. Before all these things take place, however, you will be arrested and persecuted; you will be handed over to be tried … you will be brought before kings and rulers for my sake … Stand firm …

“This will be your chance to tell the Good News.”

Duh! My big chance to tell the Good News, and I was running for the door. I was even more grateful that Art did not blow the chance to witness — and to remind me what it is all about.

I’ve matured to the point where witnessing and risking arrest comes more naturally … and even more exhilarating. On the very snowy day of Dec. 16, 2010, when 131 witnesses against war were arrested at the White House gates at a rally arranged by Veterans for Peace, 42 of us insisted on standing trial.

The authorities, though, quickly lost their appetite for trying the likes of us, most of whom have defended our country and its constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and assembly, for “failure to obey a lawful order,” i.e. not moving, after being ordered not to remain standing on the sidewalk in front of the White House.

The “paperwork” on us 42 had been misplaced, we were told.

As we celebrate this year’s Valentine’s Day and other holidays that stress love and peace, let’s keep in mind that the most painful anniversaries must also be marked; they must be witnessed to; attention must be paid the plight of “small” people still further diminished by the euphemism “collateral damage.”

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He served as a CIA analyst and Army infantry/intelligence officer for almost 30 years, and is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

[Reply]

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:08 pm
what a horrible, terrible, miserable, execrable, desecrable BORE!

ram autar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
mr rajiv and mahesh,

welcomes the revolution that began in Tunisia, now sweeping Arab world’s most hated state of Egypt —but the darling of its zionist neighbour Israel. America, controlled by its 2% Jews but interested only in Israel, has been supporting the 30-year-old rule of the tyrant-dictator, Hosni Mubarak. His son and successor, Gamal, has already fled to London. We have no confidence in El Baradei, the Jewish Nobel Peace Prize winner, trying to lead Egypt. We congratulate the Al -Jazeera for leading the Arab revolution.

India is anti-Muslim: As this is written the powerful Muslim Brotherhood (MB) has joined the revolution. Big changes may take placeIt is mainly Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other corrupt, Jewish-controlled pro-US Muslim countries like Jordan, Gulf states that are helping Israel survive on the Arab land that belongs to Palestine.

Iran today is leading the Islamic Revolution. That is why US and the Jews are trying to destroy it. India always goes with Jews.
: We have long back predicted that forces of history will devour the tyrants. And that is happening now. The rise of China in the East, Iran becoming a nuclear power in the middle and the gradual sinking of US will release the new forces. The first to be wiped out will be Israel followed by the “Jews of India”.

Brahminist-controlled India, the laughing stock of the world, of course, will not see a revolution but some powerful outside power will take over. (). All predictions are coming true.

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:13 pm
A wailing, wet-towel wimp, wallowing in Jihadi sxxt trying to act like a big bad bully.

vinod sharma Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
@Ram Autar
Pl don’t push me into doing something I haven’t done on this blog ever — shut out people or opinion. You are persisting with unacceptable language and behaviour.

Paritosh Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 9:05 pm
@ Muhammad autar

ISLAM = SH*T

ISLAM IS A PIG SH*T

[Reply]
Mahesh Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 12:44 am
@Sharmaji,
Has our “moderation filter” broken again ? I thought this guy was filtered out.
- Mahesh.

vijay kumar Reply:
February 18th, 2011 at 11:11 pm
Seems Ram falsie wearing autar has had two packets of charas which the ISI gives to its lower level operatives

[Reply]
Rajiv

———————————————–
Disillusionment with Pak..
———————————————-

My total disillusionment with Pakistan did not happen in one day but over a period of 20 years, after objective scutiny of Pak media and its politics. I have read much of Pak english media like
Dawn, The news, Jung, dailytimes, tribune.com.pk, the nation for last 20 years.
Reading a countries media and observing the politics is a good window to have a look at the soul of a nation.
Pakistanis who read wide variety of Indian media and have studied our politics over a period of time, can make their own mind about India. They can reach their own conclusions and I wont argue with that.

Regarding Pakistan what I have found is that Pakistan is basically a dishonest entity. Just look at Kargil. Indian PM, the chief of a nationalist party , went to Pakistan and did his best to dispel any real misunderstanding, if Pakistan had any, of Indian intentions towards Pakistan. While India was engaged in fostering friendship , Pakistan was involved in surreptiously invading and occupying territory accross the ‘agreed line of control” in Kashmir. Nawaz may claim that he did not know anything , while the record shows that while Pak army may not have updated Musharraf of the final details they did update him of the big picture and the supreme arbitrar of Pakistan, its so called pride, the Pak army, was involved in a most duplicitius, surreptious act while India was engaged in an exercise of friendship.

It had no shame for doing it. Never acknowledged that it was a treacherous act. As a nation, Pak has no soul, no ethics, no morals.

Thats why, the knowledge that the Pak state itself , through its army and intelligence agencies, is involved in terrorist acts from Parliament attack, Kandhar hijacking, Mumbai terrorist strikes, and numerous others, does not shame Paksitan, one bit.
Its as brazen as a hardened criminal.

You should be extremely wary of a person who has no character, no ethics, no soul and similarly you should be extremely careful of any engagement with a entity so profanely dishonest as Pakistan.
Thats the reason why absolute disengagement with Pakistan , while keeping a careful eye on it, is the safest , most practical and sane course for India.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

Well Dawn news says that the driver who helped Raymond Davis escape and drove the vehicle which ran over a bystander has been released and already in the US

Just a matter of time before blood money is paid and Raymond would be enjoying the sun tan in Miami

[Reply]
http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

@ Mahesh

shut the f*ck up you “secularist”.

ever given a thought about filtering mo autar and ravi. shut your a-hole please!!!

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Paritosh,

Mahesh may be a secular, but he is not a fuxxing secularist. The filterig was for Ram Fake Autar, the semi-literate jihadi.

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 9:13 pm
@ Shenoy,
to be fair to Paritosh, he was observing his conditions of bail and was listening to these conversations like a fly on the wall. When this MO autar, despite of repeated warnings and indians, saying clearly that he is not welcome, persisted with his delusions, at that point only he intervened. I do not agree with his language but mahesh has no right to single him out.

[Reply]
Praveen Saxena

Dear Mahesh ,Paritosh , Vijay, Shenoy Saab

May I sincerely request you all once again to kindly cover your noses with your handkerchiefs and move away from there. and please do not go back close to it

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Praveen,

Are you suggesting that we should all buy a box of laxatives for clearing his mind which is full of sh** , for this Pakistani with an inferiority complex who is ashamed to tell his real name and afraid and ashamed to name his country

[Reply]
Mahesh Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
@Vijay Kumar, Shenoy and Praveen,
Actually my coments were targetted both at Ram Autar and Paritosh .
One – a wannabe jehadi blurting out something in-coherent , insulting and senseless. The other complementing his stand by hurling invectives.
Clearly, Ignoring such trash would’ve been far more sensible.
Cheers,
Mahesh.

[Reply]
ram autar Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Corruption can’t be curbed so long Brahminism continues as India’s poisonous thoughtCaste system is the other name for Hinduism. It begins at the lowest village and goes right up to Delhi. But our Hindu heroes who export their swamis to USA to purify that country are not interested in cleaning our villages which is stinking with caste poison. The worst corrupt are India’s “intellectuals” who are mostly Brahminical. Had the intellectuals been honest “Hindu India” would never have hit this road-block.

Some “Hindus” did flare up against us for saying the principal cause for India’s Himalayan-sized corruption is Brahminism, hiding under the name of Hinduism. They called us anti-Hindu..

Here is a fantastic case of the judiciary itself defending unlawful and unhistorical acts — judicial murder of Indian democracy which was applauded by all Hindus. Mental corruption is more dangerous than money corruption.

(3) The Karnataka Governor sanctioned prosecution of Yeddyurappa (Jan.22, 2011) who proved to be Karnataka’s most corrupt Chief Minister. But the CM is being defended by all the Hindu religious leaders. The Brahmana Jati Party attacks the “Khatri Sick” PM in Delhi for corruption but defends its most corrupt CM in Karnataka.

Sai Baba corruption: (4) India’s richest godman, “Bhagwan” Sri Satya Sai Baba, who is now dying despite being the god, is the treasurer for the stolen money of all the most notorious thieves of India. Most of the stolen money is kept with Hindu swamis and their temples.

Vivekananda disowned: We are yet to come across a Hindu swami who is morally, intellectually and financially clean. Why did the Advaita Ashram of Calcutta stop reprinting Vivekananda’s famous book, Caste, Culture & Socialism, which tore the Brahmins to pieces? Is this not corruption? We wrote them several letters but they just don’t reply.

(1) To this our answer is this: You may call us anti-Hindu. Yes. But we are not anti-human.

(2) All our great Hindu heroes including their favourite M.K. Gandhi have called Dalits Hindu. Gandhi himself indulged in every variety of mental, moral and intellectual corruption but those who killed him only hailed him Mahatma for their selfish gains. Look at the corruption on both the sides.

(3) So as “Hindus”, we have very right to criticise the “religion” of Hinduism, though the country’s Supreme Court has said Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life.

Hindu money in Swiss bank: Look at the mental agony of the Hindu hero, “Khatri Sick” PM, who is suffering on the Hindu money in Swiss banks. He can’t go against the corrupt Hindus who are hiding their billons and trillions in Swiss banks.

If he touches the corrupt rascals, the “Khatri Sick” PM’s Govt. will be pulled down with the blessings of all Hindu religious leaders.

It is not possible to touch the corrupt Hindus who rule “Hindu India”. They are prepared to sell this country to anybody who offers them the highest money.

Law can’t curb corruption: Corruption in Hindu India cannot be crushed or controlled by law because our law-enforcing agencies are themselves corrupt. Bombay’s Brahmin ATS officer Karkare was not corrupt. Why did the Hindu heroes of Abhinav Bharat kill him?

We are sorry to say “Hindu India” has no future.

“Hindu corruption” is not a post-independent phenomenon. Corrupt Hindu raja’s only invited all “foreign invaders”. This is what history of India says. However, it is the British “invaders” who were the first to come in the way of Hindu corruption and made the life of the Bhoodevatas miserable. To fight the British, India’s top Brahminical brains went to Germany, sold their “Aryan Myth” to brainwash the brilliant German intellectuals, sold their Hindu symbol swastika to Hitler and brought about the World War-II (Read the book, Aryan Myth by a noted French Jewish historian, photocopy available with DV. Rs. 350).

Did privatisation curb corruption: The ruling upper castes have another funny argument to fool those willing to be fooled (whose number is too big). They say more and more privatisation, reducing state intervention (public sector) would reduce corruption. What they mean is corruption is confined only to govt. officials and politicians.

This argument may be true in other countries. But in “Hindu India” our experience of the private sector shows it is equally corrupt, inefficient and unconcerned like the public sector. It is the same upper castes who were earlier in public sector jumped over to private sector.

Almost 100% of the small shops, (dealing in grocery, stationary, vegetables, fruits, bakery), are privately owned. The pawn brokers are all private. Marwadis and Banias dominate this sector which specialises in cheating. Who says private sector is clean? The famous IPL cricket is totally private sector but stinking in corruption.

Large-scale tax evasion, breaking of laws and cheating in private sector are reported daily. It is the private businessmen who stashed 213 billion dollars (36% of India’s GDP in 2008) in Swiss banks. Deregulation and trade liberalisation actually contributed to transfer of money abroad (Hindu, Nov.30, 2010).

Glorification of the rich: All our newspapers, periodicals, TV and films glorify the rich. Periodically they announce the names and pictures of India’s richest. People seeing it are encouraged to follow their examples.

In a country where Laxmi is worshipped (not Saraswati), every man or woman is encouraged to beg, borrow, steal or murder to get rich quick — because the rich alone is worshipped in Hindu India.

The best example is Karnataka’s most corrupt CM, Yeddyurappa. He is universally loved and admired and if there is a re-election he will be voted back.

Nobody will ask how Yeddyurappa made the money. He is liked because he not only is rich but helped every thug to loot and break the head to steal. This is Hinduism and its value system which worships wealth and the wealthy are honoured and admired everywhere.

Did not the killer Modi, Chief Minister of Gujarat, become the darling of the Hindus?

Hindu India has a different yardstick to measure greatness. It is this yardstick that made the Gujarati Bania into mahatma — torn to pieces by Dr. Ambedkar, the Father of India.

In the book, Riddles in Hinduism, (Vol.4, W&S) Dr. Ambedkar has given a picture of the two most famous Hindu gods — Ram and Krishna — who present before us all aspects of Hindu corruption — moral, mental, intellectual, social, political. Babasaheb says as long as we worship them and hold them as heroes, Hindu India will continue to remain rotting in all varieties of corruption

[Reply]
Praveen Saxena Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
No Vijay , what we are running way from , is the result of a laxative.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Praveen,

The laxative seems to be overworking! The ashamed – of -being Pakistani Autar has just done another piece of ****– a cut and paste job !

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

@ Vinod Sharma,

If Sonia joined Swamy to topple Vajpayee, don’t you think it was low politics on her part too?

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY

Vinodji,

you said, “I am quite surprised that you watch so much of political debate on TV. I think that time will be better spent with an ex or reigning flame”

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is not.
At my age, only distance lends enchantment,
And flames, whether ex or present only scorch.

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Shenoy Sahab;
aisa naa boliye. Vinod aur meri bhi kuchh Ashaayen baki hain, and I am a big fan of : Mallika Pukhraj’s -Abhi to main jawan hun and Aai meri johra jabeen.

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 19th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
pankaj ji,

I too am a great fan of Malika Pukhraj and the songs you have quoted are two of my favourites too.

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 1:14 pm
@BV Shenoy
This one will sure lift your spirits

A man is not old when his teeth decay
A man is not old when his hair turn grey
A man approaches his last long sleep
when his mind makes promises
His body can’t keep
Cheer up now Mr Handsome

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 1:22 pm
@BV Shenoy
Age as a factor does not matter if your partner is younger ) Remeber Onasis who married Jackie Kennedy and Hugh Hefner who is 84 and is showing no sign of slowing down. He got engaged recently to a blonde much younger )

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Vinodji,

Every man’s dream is to be able to sink into the arms of a woman without also falling into her hands.

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 3:43 pm
@ Vinod Sharma,

In both cases– Onassis and Hefner’s– the women assumed that the men would be meeting god soon. In case Onassis had lived to 101 and if hefner somehow manages to pull to 117, his two wives would be a true picture of Hell’s fury !! and may become Ms Bobbits…

vinod sharma Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 6:17 pm
@Vijay Kumar
Why can’t you allow some fantasies to flourish? Birds of passage are at times welcome. They are exiciting company for the period they last ) You’d know that when you a little older young man.

(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 6:41 pm
@Vinod Sharma ji

But you see what was the result of Onasis-Jackie marriage. Jackie carried the Kennedy curse to the Onasis family and the rest is now history. Yes, 84 year old Hugh Hefner married the much younger blonde. Both were happy for different reasons. While Hefner may his own reasons, but the blond was very honest. She said after the marriage that she is so happy as the rich Hefner is so nice and a also a “harmless” person. One can draw one’s conclusions.
BNA

ram autar Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 1:32 pm
7 CHILDRENS ARE STOLEN PER HOUR IN INDIA.India’s children are missing at a much faster rate than ever before with as many as 60,000 young ones below 18 reported missing in 2009 as compared to 44,000 in 2004 — a jump of 35%. What is more disturbing is that only 40% of them are traced, mostly through individual efforts by parents. I t means that seven children, mostly from extremely poor families, go missing every hour with a count of 165 a day.

About 10% or 6,000 children, who went missing were infants less than a year old.

“The figure would have been higher had bigger states like Rajasthan, Orissa, Gujarat, Punjab and Tamil Nadu provided information under the Right To Information Act,” said Kailash Sathyarathi, chairman of NGO Bachpan Bachao Andolan, which filed the RTI applications 10 months ago.

Twenty-four children going missing from Noida’s Nithari area in 2006 stirred the government to announce a Rs 200-crore scheme for a database of all missing children in India.

Only two states — Delhi and Haryana — have uploaded data on all missing children on Zipnet, a centralised database to help track them.

“There is not even 15% interest in implementing this good initiative,” said PM Nair, an Indian Police Service officer, who had worked on child issues with the United Nations and National Human Rights Commission on its study in 2004.

The RTI replies filed by the states show the police investigates just 15 % of complaints it receives because of manpower constrains. Implications were apparent in case of three children from Delhi, who were found in a brothel, a roadside eatery and in a begging gang six months after they were reported missing.

“In most cases investigation does not proceed more than 15-20 days,” Nair said.

100 INDIANS ARE MURDERERD THROUGH SUPARI GIVEN BY LONDON BASED PUNJAIBIS.

[Reply]
shalu

This is congress!Those who are throwing stones,firing on security forces,want a muslim country ,have driven out hindus from kashmir by doing a genocide against them are rewarded by Rs. 5 Lakh!Those who sacrifice their lives get nothing but doubt from congressies that they did fake encounters!Great congressies!You need to be hanged publicly for all your crimes against the country.

[Reply]
(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 20th, 2011 at 6:46 pm
@Shalu

I share your anger. The govt. record in rehabilitating the Kashmiri Pandits is indeed very miserable and deplorable.
But the congress does not come to power because of our votes. That is because they buy the votes and also lure the weaker sections of the society by false promises.
BNA

[Reply]
dimple Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 11:14 am
meena das says

shalu,

where is the abuse police of a few cowards who r more exercised by harmless posts here…

to them rewarding violence like stone pelting to protest against delhi flyover mosque demoltion,coercing shah bano law,forcing taslema out is fine…

and if someone defends in return by showing his anger by words like paritosh ….they define it as abuse

do they evn know what is defence…thse same people will lecture the jawans not to defend themselves against stone pelters but not the stone pelters…like they did for paritosh..

abuse and violence from their favorite community is fine….and even rewarded by meeting the illegal demands like the recent delhi protest against development by demoliting mosque..

mahesh is sleeping now when congress rewards violnce which is much worse than a defence reaction by paritosh with mere words..

mahesh go and lecture jawans in kashmir to tie their hands…and not react in dfence..that is ur logic

when u take paritosh on about a reaction in defence against beliefs that have hurt india for centuries including the 1947 islamization of 40 % land

and yeah maybe namby pamby hindus like shenoy,pankaj,vijaykumar will join u..

see how they r quiet now when congress rewards stonepelters and those against the army

they will wake up only to defend this board against abuse as defeined by them…

god save india from thse soft fools who r preoccupied with gagging peole who only express their anger in harmless words and free speech

by the way by the same subjective logic can i belive
when shakespeare wrote hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
he abused women

and life is a play full of sound and fury signifying nothing…

he abused life..

god save india from thse abuse police who remain quiet on violence
by stone pelters etc and when a patriot is called mass murderer

and saffron is termed terror…

not to mention abuse by the censor himself on grounds of so called abuse as defined
by him

[Reply]
ram autar Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 10:40 pm
bibi dimple intellectual corruption is more dangerous than financial corruption.

.

No. Hundred and one times we have said that money corruption, like all the current raging controversy on the spectrum scandal (Rs. 1.76 lakh crores), the country’s largest fraud, is a by-product of the most serious intellectual corruption which is the Gangotri of all other varieties of corruption (India’s Intellectual Desert, DSA-1999, Rs. 50).

GANDHI AS KING OF CORRUPTION
The tragedy, however, is this all-important “intellectual corruption” is kept totally hidden and our attention is diverted only to “money corruption” which is magnified and repeated daily through TV, print media, films, speeches etc. So much so the people are made to believe that “money corruption” is the most serious disease killing India.

No. It is not money corruption. India is the victim of intellectual corruption.

This variety corruption is hidden because those indulging in it are our ruling Bhoodevatas. This is the secret.

M.K. Gandhi was the king of this intellectual corruption.

And yet the ordinary people go on talking of only the money corruption.

FLOURISHING GOD BUSINESS
This itself proves how much we are blinded by the Brahminical propaganda.

Look at the latest example of the 102 unthinking SC/ST/BCs who went to Sabarimala and died there for nothing. Where is the money corruption here? Brahmin priests are promoting a superstition of the makarajyoti, to see which millions go there and die like flies. This is part of the Brahminical “god business”. This is intellectual corruption.

BRAHMINIST MONOPOLY
Even a “marxist govt.” of Kerala, which controls the Sabarimala temple, dare not touch the “god business” fearing the wrath of the godmen who control the god. Is this “money corruption”?

Promoting superstition, blind belief, all sorts of humbugs like yoga, astrology, god business, Kumbh mela, Hindu racism (untouchability), merit mantra, and many more — all these are not part of money corruption but “intellectual corruption” which is the exclusive monopoly of the Brahminists.

The Kerala Govt. rejected a probe into makarajyoti because the entire lot of 2% Brahminists and their tail will lose leadership over the business called “Hindu religion” once the SC/ST/BCs come to know that makarajyoti is a man-made bullshit. As the Assembly election is nearing, marxist’s can’t go against Brahminists.

GOVT. PROTECTING CORRUPTION
Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer, the most famous Brahmin leader of Kerala wearing a marxist garb, is silent because of the jati interest.

Where is the money corruption here?

Here is a case of a govt. itself protecting the “intellectual corruption” of the rulers of India who fearing a threat to their rulership, are diverting our attention from “”intellectual corruption” to “money corruption”.

Shoot down the intellectual corruption, all other corruptions including the money corruption will commit suicide.

[Reply]
vijay kumar

Seems that the Congress is going all out to play 1989 again. To deflect attantion from corruption they are all set to light up Hindu-Muslims tensions by announcing all Muslims will get job reservations. This will push the Hindus tho think

a) Will this not tempt Hindus to convert to islam?

b) Why should there be religion based reservations… the sort of evil stupidity which lead to creation of Pakistan?

Then the question I am throwing out here is

a)Why reservations for Muslims alone? Why not have it for other minorities to– say Sikhs, Parsees, Christians? is not the Congress discriminating against other minorities?

B) But instead of reservations, why not improve iSLAM by changing the personal law which keeps Muslims behind other religions worldwide. In countries like Malaysia and Turkey, where the evil Muslim personal law does not prevail, the sociey has advacnced.

Unfortunately that will not happen. The Congress seems to be in panic mode, running to the toilet every few hours, shitting out new ideas , worse than the previous…

Vinodji, as member of NMC, dont you think religion based reservations will lead to an ATTACK ON THE IDEA OF INDIA ???

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 6:39 pm
@Vijay Kumar
I am not writing this as NCM member. But my personal view is that equal opportunity is the answer to such problems. But it will have to have a degree of affirmative action— a fine balance that does not trigger the kind of reaction you are apprehending. I am keeping it deliberately vague as it is a sensitive question. Hope you appreciate.

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@! Vinod Sharma,

I can appreciate your position.

I just want to put this as an ordinary Indian, who is just about sick of this caste and religious game played by politicians.

My own community, Punjabi HIndus, have done well, being risktakers and comparitely free of prejudice. Now should we be discriminated against, just because we have done well? I am sure that is what many communities feel in India.

Of reservations are necessary for scheduled castes, who have been discriminted against. Why can’t poor Muslims of certain professions like weavers and artisans be given reservations instead of ALL Muslims, just becasue they are Muslims? If it was a question of minorities then why not all Sikhs– who happen to be the most prosperous and richest community of India? Or why not all Parsees and Buddhists and Christians?

If Muslims remain backward in india, then it is not so much prejudice, but more beacuse of certain religious practices and personal laws which make their women the least educated among all communities. Why does’nt someone say that bluntly. That is why the remain comparitvely backward in UK — where I stayed for some time and other European countries.

Let me end on a funny note. I have done a bit of TV scripting and direction in the late ninties. At that point, the name of any villian in a serial could ONLY be a Khurana, a Sharma, A srivastav or Saxena

Why ???

The media bosses in the channels told us that villians with name of minorities or any other caste could result in mass protests!!

That is the sort of division– VP SIngh, Digviajay and so called muslim leaders have achieved!

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 7:29 pm
@Vijay Kumar
I have another story that will show the flip side of what you have written. It was pointed out to me by Shyam Benegal. He said that Yusuf Khan changed his name to Dilip Kumar as the most prominent leading man of post-partition cinema in India. And all through his career he never played the role of a Muslim —barring Mughal E Azam which was a historical. This diffidence on the part of Muslims to show their loyalty to India in the early years of Independence has since gone.
The Khans who now rule Bollywood are upfront and proud of their origin. A big change this from the standpoint of the idea that it India — I mean India where all religions have equal space with the State being without religion.
I agree that a pure numerical approach to the minorities issue can be self defeating and divisive. Affirmative action for them has to be driven and informed by their socio-economic status as well. So not all Muslims but only those who need cushion or help. Not all Sikhs but those who need cushion or help. Likewise, a similar yardstick for Hindus in the North East, Kashmir and Punjab where they are in a minority.

B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 7:49 pm
Vijay Kumar,

In the by now long forgotten serial ‘Kismat’, Kanwaljit Singh played a character called Shenoy. (may be because of that it didn’t do well and flopped midway)

Vinay Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 8:36 pm
This is one more “minority sympathy” comments I have been hearing for a long time. Dilip Kumar and Meena Kumari had to change their names to survive in the industry. If so, how come Mohammad Rafi, Waheeda Rehman, Suraiya managed? Who care about Waheeda Rehman’s and Rafi’s religion when they hear the song of Chadvi Ki Chand? Waheeda Rehman has just remained herself without any pretence, unlike Yusuf Khan who took “Kumar” name, which was the fashion then (just like the “Khan”s today). Instead of appreciating honest people, we pour unnecessary sympathies to people who were just opportunistic.

Vijay Kumar Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 11:35 am
C’mon Shenoy, to me u r the biggest hit on this blog !

(Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 6:34 pm
@Vinod Sharma

Yes sir, what you say here with regard to concessions to muslim minority alone makes sense. We have been stressing against the partisan approach of UPA govt. with regards to such an blanket approach for long. Where ever the govt. tried to enforce this policy, it did not stand to the scrutiny of courts like in Andhra. What you write here makes sense and I at least agree. The concessions should be for every one deprived citizen of the country not as a blanket policy for one whole minority community alone.
As for as Dilip Kumar adopting a Hindu name for bollywood films, is it n’t a fact that Pakistani women film artistes are increasingly adopting Hindu names, like Veena Malik, Meera( a Pakistani heroine in one of and Mr. Bhatt’s film) and Reema? These at least do not sound muslim names.
BNA
Pankaj#1

@ Vijay
You are barking at the wrong tree(metaphorically, of course). Read an article by M.J.Akbar in dawn, and what he has to say? real culprit is not Raja, but DMK. Raja is only front office boy. Most of the money has gone to DMK boss, who has made Telecom ministry its fiefdom, even before Raja, which public knew, before congress chief knew(?). Such an open loot and GOI was unaware?? Are they fit to be entrusted with national security? Now, by no stretch of imagination, M. J. Akbar is from Saraswati Shishu Mandir. which our learned journalists from Convent schools or government schools are from. They have no courage to call a spade a spade. Now congress is trying all divisive tricks to retain gaddi. In the name of being secularists, who is playing religious politics. Congress or BJP? is there a limit to being such low life?
An interesting Baital story is doing round, where a business person, left his house to a good, old, neighbour on the oath of God, Old man left that house in care of his son, again on oath of God. Son, pilfered the wealth, people warned the old man, son convinced him and ultimately, when business man came back, found that his wealth has been looted. Went to king, who summoned old man and son, old man agreed that son is guilty and should be punished. king sent the son to jail, but business man said the justice has not been done, surprised King said, why? Business man told that the house was entrusted to old man and not to his son. baital asked vikramaditya and vikramaditya said, business man is right. so that is in nut shell our story of PM, A. Raja and indian public in both being business person and king. all metaphorically ofcourse).

[Reply]
dimple

from meena das

shalu,

where is the abuse police of a few cowards who r more exercised by harmless posts here…

to them rewarding violence like stone pelting to protest against delhi flyover mosque demoltion,coercing shah bano law,forcing taslema out is fine…

and if someone defends in return by showing his anger by words like paritosh ….they define it as abuse

do they evn know what is defence…thse same people will lecture the jawans not to defend themselves against stone pelters but not the stone pelters…like they did for paritosh..

abuse and violence from their favorite community is fine….and even rewarded by meeting the illegal demands like the recent delhi protest against development by demoliting mosque..

mahesh is sleeping now when congress rewards violnce which is much worse than a defence reaction by paritosh with mere words..

mahesh go and lecture jawans in kashmir to tie their hands…and not react in dfence..that is ur logic

when u take paritosh on about a reaction in defence against beliefs that have hurt india for centuries including the 1947 islamization of 40 % land

and yeah maybe namby pamby hindus like shenoy,pankaj,vijaykumar will join u..

see how they r quiet now when congress rewards stonepelters and those against the army

they will wake up only to defend this board against abuse as defeined by them…

god save india from thse soft fools who r preoccupied with gagging peole who only express their anger in harmless words and free speech

by the way by the same subjective logic can i belive
when shakespeare wrote hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
he abused women

and life is a play full of sound and fury signifying nothing…

he abused life..

god save india from thse abuse police who remain quiet on violence
by stone pelters etc and when a patriot is called mass murderer

and saffron is termed terror…

not to mention abuse by the censor himself on grounds of so called abuse as defined
by him

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Dimple, Meena Das,

your text is incoherent even while your anger is scorching. Poor fellow, Shakespeare; what has he done to earn your ire? When he wrote, ‘hell hath no fury like a woman scorned’ he definitely wouldn’t have imagined that 500 years on, an angry Indian woman (or two) would find it offensive!

Since the rest of your outpourings is all verbiage fit for the gaqrbage can, I am letting it be. I would only advise you, in Vinodji’s words, “Drink a glass of cold water”.

[Reply]
dimple Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 7:27 am
shenoy unlike u peole r busy

u have no logical ability…which is where the brains r….i wrote in a hurry
and most people understand….

not u because that needs minimal brains
u dont even understand typos and speed errors

i was only giving u an example of how what u call abuse is subjective

but u did not get it…unsurprisingly…

anyway the point was idiots like u are moree xercised by harmless so called abuse

and not violence of the real kind like stonepelting..

as i said quoting shakespeare is ur way of compensating

u say ur against congress and were suggesting that yeddy resign and lose lingayat vote and the recent elections..as per the congress gameplan

that is how braindead u r…i rest my case

[Reply]
Vijay Kumar

The “ashamed- to-be-Pakistani” Autar is just proof and good reason why there is no hope from dealing with Pakistan. He will keep repeating lies to deflect attention from the fct that Pakistan is the centre of terror and evil… and showing his low IQ, he will keep doing cut and paste !!

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 21st, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Vijay Kumar,

when the mad country, Pakistan, destroys itself (which will be soon) this Ram Fake Autar may seek assylum in India and we can straightaway admit him into one of our famous mental assylums, where he can do more research on how Brahmins destroyed scheduled caste Muslims.

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY

Vinodji,

On the subject of affirmative action, please permit me to “air” my views for what they are worth:

Removing the “creamy layer” from the reservation list for Hindu Sc/STs in all spheres of Indian life would leave vast spaces for the less privileged from the minorities, particularly for the really poor from the Muslim community. We should enlarge the scope of the UID cards to indicate economic status as well, so that the really needy can be identified. More than anything, this community really needs “entry” into the education world through some really effective reservations and scholarships.

[Reply]
vinod sharma Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 6:21 pm
@B V Shenoy
Scholarships are now available for minorities under the PM’s 15-point programme. I am totally with you on the creamy layer concept. We have to help those who need help and not others who have helped themselves to what is beyond their share.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry

Continuing previous thread of conversation:-

Mahesh wrote:
February 19th, 2011 at 1:42 am

@Usman,
Sorry for being a bit late in responding owing to my workplace pressures.
Responding to your post…..
You said :
” I guess a genuine one would be orphan but what you say in addition to the fundamentalist who would use their means to fill in the gap is some what alarming. i believe the impression set is not all that with the jehadi element as well even though both would be driven by anti american sentiments. ”
If I have parsed correctly – what you say here is while the anti-american sentiment (just to be clear – in case somebody from “intel…” is reading this and may feel incompetently lazy to brand this as a discussion between jehadists – anti-american here means against american policies in this part of the asia known as India and Pakistan) is widespread, the acceptance for jehadis might be overstated . Have I read it correctly ? Assuming so, my question still remains – what is filling in the space where mainstream political parties fail to represent ? Alternately, is it so that the realization and / or will is yet to be upon the masses that a political struggle is possible ?
Further you said ….
“Educated and aware class should have an upper hand to break the shackles with a long lasting vision. A solution proposal is awaiting if you can pour some. ”
Trouble is Educated and aware classes are well entrenched in their own world and mostly un-willing to take pains involved in making a difference.
Solution proposal ….. Usman, now you are making me feel like a true prophet – something that even my wife, close friends or immediate colleagues would never ever dare bestow on a lowlife being that is me.
Seriously, if you are implying that I belong to the pretentiously opinionated mass of people who feel they are in a position to advise Pakistani people on how they should conduct their affairs then we may be a bit off mark here. My comment was just a observation, sounding out a few possibilities. Nothing more, Nothing less.
You said :
” Any stories from your side on the indian situation?”
In the context of our discussion , well yes. We have had our own set of troubles with communal polity that at times would ride on the frustration amongst masses. The “Punjab problem” had aforesaid markings. Looking back – my sense is even the rise of “majoritarian fundamentalism” (aka hindu fundamentalism) during late eighties through about mid-nineties found acceptance due frustration within the middle class mostly as a result of stagnancy in economic growth and shrinking opportunities. Further more, my sense is the economic growth achieved in late nineties and during the first decade of new millenium has been a very large contributor in fading of communal polity. That said the currently prevalent consumerist culture happens to skirt several problems we are or may witness them in future falsely assuming the same economic growth rate.
Since you mentioned Bahrain – let me say this, with Egyptian situation I find myself being a bit pessimistic about the overall outcome given that the same military which enjoyed power during Mabarak’s reign continues to be the strongest force, it’s popularity notwithstanding.
For others – well by now probablly the respective governments are already alert and “managing” their situations.
Finally…
You said :
“please share some more lines on why would you believe that americans are trying to ensure that religiously aligned resistance should fill in?”
Well, no. That’s not what I meant. My point is Americans are being biggest single point recruits for jehadis through their policies. And that, in the absence of progressive resistance jehadis might actually fill in the gap.
Cheers,
Mahesh.

————————–

Greetings Mahesh,

My apologies for showing late. Somewhat similar reason and personal commitments had kept me engaged.

- Jehadi acceptance/who is filling the gap?
Yes, acceptance for jehadist is overstated. People won’t feel like being recruit for jehadists even if they share same anti american sentiments. Mainstream political parties are not completely out, they are pretty much there to fill the gap but have been somewhat diplomatic when engaged with tough issues. So if they do not meet higher level of expectations of general masses they do fulfill minimal. Exception being Imran Khan who is more vocal then all. Imran although has trouble in establishing himself on political stage but is far ahead of other mainstream political parties on humanitarian aspects and critical on foreign matters especially on american policies w.r.t AfPak and obsession of war against terrorism. He does indeed represent the voice of people and encourages students and educated class to step forward.

- Educated Class
“Trouble is Educated and aware classes are well entrenched in their own world and mostly un-willing to take pains involved in making a difference”
Cent per cent true. Couldn’t agree more on this with you. But maybe im superflous in my thoughts thinking that they have the capacity to bring change upon realization.

- Other gov:
Libyan situation is somewhat alarming, govs might have some degree of resistance but not lasting.

- Suggestions/Observation:
Good to have series of discussion with you on serious observations. Indeed enjoyed exchange of views and won’t see you as lowlife as you see yourself.

Ciao,
Usman

[Reply]
Mahesh Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:02 am
@Usman and others reading on Libyan situation,
Another excellent article by Vijay Prashad : http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad02222011.html
Goes on very well to set up the historical premises that possibly led to the “Libyan situation”.
Cheers,
Mahesh.
p.s. for Vinay : Nice to see you joining the debate with well articulated points. While not in agreement will all that you say, it is indeed nice to see you jump in.

[Reply]
Vinay Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Thanks Mahesh,
Earlier had not participated in the discussion regarding Egyptian revolution, as Gautam had covered extensively in his blog, everyday.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry

@Mr Pankaj,
Sorry for late appearance. Thank you for your opinion and exchange of views.

@Dr Anand,
Hello sir, yes your speculation is appealing but the big question is suspicious activities under diplomatic shelter. For some time it is big concern over here some how the matter got publicity and media attention. Legal process is on its way and indeed a wise call by government pending all on court proceedings.

Usman

[Reply]
Vinay Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 6:25 pm
@Usman,

Not trying to float any conspiracy theories. (They are abundant). But difficult to believe, Davis’ job was not known to “ANY” top officials or politicians of Pakistan before. Also, the assumption of US being desperate for release of Davis but none of Pak’s leader is ready to let him go. I am saying from Indian experience. Indian government makes lot of noise about Dawood’s presence in Pak and Pakistan’s non co-operation in handing him over to India. But there are lot of unprinted facts; who gave him shelter in India earlier, who helped his family to have a safe exit from India after Bomb Blasts in Bombay. Those people are still sitting at the top. People who helped the CEO of Union Carbide to get out of India, (during Bhopal tragedy) are still enjoying powers. Compare this, http://news.markets247.com/bp-20-billion-as-compensation-funds-for-the-oil-leak-in-gulf-of-mexico-158 with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10411047 It is our politicians who have sold the security of our country, but smartly transferred the blame to outsiders. I don’t presume Pak politicians any better than ours.

“Imran although has trouble in establishing himself on political stage ..”
So what? Vajpayee had been the lone member of Jansangh for decades. Eventually he led the country. Democracy is not a quick fix anyway (as revolutionaries in Egypt are hoping). India, having 6 decades of democracy is still suffering under corruption and bureaucracy. Iran, is still experimenting between liberal and religious democracies for the past 30 years. It will take some more decades for us. But for that, we don’t need to quit dreaming.

[Reply]
usman chaudhry Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 12:18 am
Hello Mr Vinay,

Davis and co were well within the watch list. Their activities were fully known. This makes the belief more stronger that he was a spy disguised as diplomat. This is concern for Obama administration even senetor Kerry went empty handed. What’s troublesome is his links with terrorists in Pakistan. So what was some time back known to be baseless conspiracy is now coming under a clear visibility. Indeed, the political class has brought shame when handling such issues and would invite injustice to prevail.

I agree with your reply in establishing oneself in political race. I’m not looking it differently but have said that despite his less establish foothold he is far better then other established ones. Let it may take any number of years those who adopt right and justice always come out winning.

In best of hopes,
Usman

[Reply]
ram autar

bibi dimple intellectual corruption is more dangerous than financial corruption.

.

No. Hundred and one times we have said that money corruption, like all the current raging controversy on the spectrum scandal (Rs. 1.76 lakh crores), the country’s largest fraud, is a by-product of the most serious intellectual corruption which is the Gangotri of all other varieties of corruption (India’s Intellectual Desert, DSA-1999, Rs. 50).

GANDHI AS KING OF CORRUPTION
The tragedy, however, is this all-important “intellectual corruption” is kept totally hidden and our attention is diverted only to “money corruption” which is magnified and repeated daily through TV, print media, films, speeches etc. So much so the people are made to believe that “money corruption” is the most serious disease killing India.

No. It is not money corruption. India is the victim of intellectual corruption.

This variety corruption is hidden because those indulging in it are our ruling Bhoodevatas. This is the secret.

M.K. Gandhi was the king of this intellectual corruption.

And yet the ordinary people go on talking of only the money corruption.

FLOURISHING GOD BUSINESS
This itself proves how much we are blinded by the Brahminical propaganda.

Look at the latest example of the 102 unthinking SC/ST/BCs who went to Sabarimala and died there for nothing. Where is the money corruption here? Brahmin priests are promoting a superstition of the makarajyoti, to see which millions go there and die like flies. This is part of the Brahminical “god business”. This is intellectual corruption.

BRAHMINIST MONOPOLY
Even a “marxist govt.” of Kerala, which controls the Sabarimala temple, dare not touch the “god business” fearing the wrath of the godmen who control the god. Is this “money corruption”?

Promoting superstition, blind belief, all sorts of humbugs like yoga, astrology, god business, Kumbh mela, Hindu racism (untouchability), merit mantra, and many more — all these are not part of money corruption but “intellectual corruption” which is the exclusive monopoly of the Brahminists.

The Kerala Govt. rejected a probe into makarajyoti because the entire lot of 2% Brahminists and their tail will lose leadership over the business called “Hindu religion” once the SC/ST/BCs come to know that makarajyoti is a man-made bullshit. As the Assembly election is nearing, marxist’s can’t go against Brahminists.

GOVT. PROTECTING CORRUPTION
Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer, the most famous Brahmin leader of Kerala wearing a marxist garb, is silent because of the jati interest.

Where is the money corruption here?

Here is a case of a govt. itself protecting the “intellectual corruption” of the rulers of India who fearing a threat to their rulership, are diverting our attention from “”intellectual corruption” to “money corruption”.

Shoot down the intellectual corruption, all other corruptions including the money corruption will commit suicide.

[Reply]

[Reply]
dimple

shenoy unlike u peole r busy

u have no logical ability…which is where the brains r….i wrote in a hurry
and most people understand….

not u because that needs minimal brains
u dont even understand typos and speed errors

i was only giving u an example of how what u call abuse is subjective

but u did not get it…unsurprisingly…

anyway the point was idiots like u are moree xercised by harmless so called abuse

and not violence of the real kind like stonepelting..

as i said quoting shakespeare is ur way of compensating

u say ur against congress and were suggesting that yeddy resign and lose lingayat vote and the recent elections..as per the congress gameplan

that is how braindead u r…i rest my case

[Reply]
B.V.SHENOY Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 6:36 pm
Dimple/Meena Das,

You are trying to hide your incoherence of thoughts behind the lame excuse of typos/speed errors.

Yeddyurappa was advised by the BJP leadership at the very beginning of his troubles with the opposition about unethical allotment of house sites to his kith and kin. While he forced himself to undo the allotments and the sites were surrendered back to the BDA, he disobeyed the suggestion to resign and face inquiry. By not resigning, however, he made the party the subject of media ridicule outside Karnataka and he lost much of the goodwill inside the state too.

As for winning elections, it may interest you to know that the coastal districts, Chikmagalur, Mysore, Bangalore and a few other places too do not have any significant Lingayat population and the BJP still got the best results against both the congress and the JD(S).

Please note that in Karnataka, it is the party which has made Yeddyurappa and not the other way round. But, if the BJP loses the state in the next elections, it would be entirely due to Yeddy and his corruption.

Since the rest of your “hurried” mush is all a big jumble, I would prefer not to respond to that.

[Reply]
dimple Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:02 am
shenoy – pankaj

shenoy u confirm the barrenness of ur brain’s logical side

just because bjp won in non lingayat seats…

does not mean it would win in lingayat seats

the dynamics of each seat is different..

the point is a party shuld go all out to win…and not take chances
with the lingayat vote which also contributes

looks like u do not know seats r won by close margins
and angry lingayat voters may not turn out and worse vote for their second choice…

stick to parroting shakespeare…if u had some talent evn in that area
u wuld be selling ur own poetry by now….

i dont blame u for finding my posts incoherent…to understand
u need the minimal capacity

and dont try to be a predictor of the unverfiable future..vey convenient…
u shuld be a god sent messiah if u have that magic power to see the future

at the end of the day ur posts show ur a congress-jds agent

bjp trounced the congress-jds in the recent polls…and there is \correlation betwen
that and the assembly elections because both r people’s verdict and peole have more sense to know that a voter chooses the better party..life’ s choices r relative…and bjp is far better than the
others who have looted much more for 60 yrs…but agents like u will hold it to perfection and
rather bring the professional dacoits to power
stick
to the parroting specialization

PANKAJ

dont try to be a judge on internet”abuse”….which is interpreted by people subjectively or differently

the same peeople will talk about mfhusains right to free speech evn when that is
possibly illegal….

expresing emotions of anger and frustration r part of free speech…not illegal

what is illegal is pelting stones..and violence over delhi mosque demolition

u r quiet when congress rewards these peole and when a patriot is called massmuderer
and saffron i called terror and for mfh’s action

by ur logic u will ask the jawans not to defend themselves in a *** for tat

ur oneside treacherouus moral hypocrisy has been used by peaceniks/secularists before

india needs true brave men like paritosh and not treacherous wimps like u 2

if u r so touchy about harmless so called abuse whne u ignore the actions above
at the end of the day u r an asset to the islamic invaders to which india has lost 50 % land
and the hindus have ben cleansed..

u r quiet on kashmiri pandits,saffron terror etc etc

that is truly a virtue which makes ur cowardice hypocricy duplicity ,passiveness
qualify u to be a superior indian

thanks for making me understand why india has been enslaved and subjugated
for centuries and why it has lost land from afhanistan to bangladesh whre hindus
r extinct…

now go and hand tie the jawans and reward the stone pelters like the congress did..

u will get an award from the separatists and another country…

in ur vocab..traitoros r superior indians but not mine

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Dimple;
Gusse main jo nikhra hai us —-, My dear calling Shenoy names wont serve your purpose. Lack of control over oneself, linguistic handicap and liberal use of expletives were never a virtue and do not make you a superior Indian. I have seldom seen, people abusing fellow blogger and that leaves a bitter taste.

[Reply]
dimple

to shenoy and pankaj

shenoy u confirm the barrenness of ur brain’s logical side

just because bjp won in non lingayat seats…

does not mean it would win in lingayat seats

the dynamics of each seat is different..

the point is a party shuld go all out to win…and not take chances
with the lingayat vote which also contributes

looks like u do not know seats r won by close margins
and angry lingayat voters may not turn out and worse vote for their second choice…

stick to parroting shakespeare…if u had some talent evn in that area
u wuld be selling ur own poetry by now….

i dont blame u for finding my posts incoherent…to understand
u need the minimal capacity

and dont try to be a predictor of the unverfiable future..vey convenient…
u shuld be a god sent messiah if u have that magic power to see the future

at the end of the day ur posts show ur a congress-jds agent

bjp trounced the congress-jds in the recent polls…and there is \correlation betwen
that and the assembly elections because both r people’s verdict and peole have more sense to know that a voter chooses the better party..life’ s choices r relative…and bjp is far better than the
others who have looted much more for 60 yrs…but agents like u will hold it to perfection and
rather bring the professional dacoits to power
stick
to the parroting specialization

PANKAJ

dont try to be a judge on internet”abuse”….which is interpreted by people subjectively or differently

the same peeople will talk about mfhusains right to free speech evn when that is
possibly illegal….

expresing emotions of anger and frustration r part of free speech…not illegal

what is illegal is pelting stones..and violence over delhi mosque demolition

u r quiet when congress rewards these peole and when a patriot is called massmuderer
and saffron i called terror and for mfh’s action

by ur logic u will ask the jawans not to defend themselves in a *** for tat

ur oneside treacherouus moral hypocrisy has been used by peaceniks/secularists before

india needs true brave men like paritosh and not treacherous wimps like u 2

if u r so touchy about harmless so called abuse whne u ignore the actions above
at the end of the day u r an asset to the islamic invaders to which india has lost 50 % land
and the hindus have ben cleansed..

u r quiet on kashmiri pandits,saffron terror etc etc

that is truly a virtue which makes ur cowardice hypocricy duplicity ,passiveness
qualify u to be a superior indian

thanks for making me understand why india has been enslaved and subjugated
for centuries and why it has lost land from afhanistan to bangladesh whre hindus
r extinct…

now go and hand tie the jawans and reward the stone pelters like the congress did..

u will get an award from the separatists and another country…

in ur vocab..traitoros r superior indians but not mine

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Dear Dimple;
It seems that you have joined this blog quite late and do not know our views, otherwise you would not have written all that you have written about your fellow bloggers. My only contention is that eschewing expletives make your argument strong, while use of abuse, make your statement blabbering.

[Reply]
dimple

pankaj my point is anger and frustration is part of free speech…..

and abuse is subjective….what u call expletives

is my right to express my anger and frustration…

many hindus r concerned about the islamic grip over india due to votebank politics of congress
and growing population of muslims including illegal bdeshis…

the strange thing is peole like u get moral and touchy about so called abuse and expletives..

i disagree….and belive u r no judge

i have also noticed that people like u do not show any passion against violnce by muslims
and saffron terror and modi masmurderer comments

these r far worse than anything i or parit
osh have written

my problem with hindus like u r ur softies who make big deal about abuse but go into hiding for
the slow creeping but steady conquest of india since centuries

1947 was a conquest of 40 % india by islam ..india was the only country that was conquered in 21 st century along with kashmir in 90s…

and the softy treacheorus hindus in 1947 decided muslims to stay back even when 95 % wanted a state for only the pure muslims..ladke liya paksitan…hanske lege hindustan was the slogan

this is what islam belives since 7th century …and peole like u do not show any learning
or grasp of this danger….and the blatant discriminationa against hindus in the subcontinent

in fact islam is ruling india an congress passed shahbano…and knows muslim votebank is sufficient to win…

congress received 26 % vote in 2009….mostly muslims…who turn out and vote with ahatred and passion against bjp..which has always been there since 1947…

if u cannot understand this and direct ur passion to anger and frustration u have an absolute perverse sense of priority..

if u lecture about anger in defence against india’s plight and the discrimination against hindus…

u could lecture against the jawans by preaching non-defence to them when peole r killing and maiming them..

i am sorry but i belive peole like u and shenoy r the reason why congress and the world take hindus for granted…eg kashmiri pandist and post godhra…

the minorities r backed by the world’s muslims and christians…

no one talks bout kashmiri hindus or godhra train…

only because hindus r passive for centuries and enslaved….

i see that in your posts…and congress and the world knows it can trample on hindus
who like being slaves and subjugated….because of people lik u….

but theere is a india which disagrees with people like u with warped prioritis and petty
unfounded moral science lectures on so called expletives..

peole like u r so passive that u feel no anger against injustice…

and so confused that u will clap in a movie when hero shows anger aginst injustice…

peole like me and paritosh shuld be applauded for showing our anger in defence…

peole like u r mentally feeble and touchy, love lecturing ……

but at the end of the day u help the jihadis….and never learn from the treachery of the jaichands
and the emotional weakness of prithviraj chauhan

paritosh and me r like shivaji

[Reply]
dimple

meant silence on kashmir and godhra train instead of post godhra above

[Reply]
Pankaj#1 Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
As long as your dialogues are civil, I will carry on this, in next blog.

[Reply]
faaiz muhammad

It is shame for the whole nation that we have no dignity but compromises in life .We pardoned Raymond Davis for three lives but could not manage a pardon for Aafia for just attempt to attack on Nato officer. Shame, woe and curse many times on all of us for being sold out for dollars and humble slaves of America.
Another victim of Raymond Davis found in a posh area of Lahore
live pakistan news

[Reply]
anil

It’s quite a long article but it missed very important point. IF YOU DON”T HAVE LEADERS WHO CAN LEAD, politics is bound to go local.

Once people like Narendra Modi (you may not like him but that’s not the point) comes to Centre stage politics will become national. Everything he does will be national.
Period.

Even if you don’t like Narendra Modi, get one some one else of his calibre and see the result for yourself and then write another article. It’s the LEADER’S DUTY TO LEAD and that includes addressing issues of national importance and MAKE IT HEARD.

Indians have been far too long under controlled mindset (influence of artificial social Engineering done in the name of Gandhism but absolutely not by Gandhi or by his remotest approval) and have problem seeing through potential socio-political problems. Side effect of this is – as a nation of one billion people – THEY HAVE ACCEPTED CORRUPTION as norm of the day (things are now changing slowly, I must admit)!

[Reply]
anil

Mr. Vir Sangvi, as a person in media you should also do your bit of contribution. Once a politician start raising caste/religious bogey you should come heavy on that person no matter what. Set the trend if you are so honest with yourself. So far no one has done that and it’s an opportunity to be the first. If you write a long long story on that people can forgive you even if you show sign of some immaturity.

On the other hand, if you show intelligent gimmicks to justify the crooks, people will not hesitate to even dump you along with those crooks. So allow pulse of your heart to be heard from close proximity of your brain, working only depending on “brain” alone may make you another of the buddies of the mafia group. Such people end up in despair at the end.

[Reply]
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_URSXATBEMZ7HUAB3OH36PLYWDM Ashok

Idle to believe the Samajwadi Party will not win well over 40 Lok Sabha seats in 2014, or earlier, so the columnist’s basic premise is valid. Were the Congress to shuffle its pack in the states where it is in power with nondescript CMs, that might give it a fighting chance in the next national election.

[Reply]
Anonymous

I have no respect for Vir Sanghvi. Nira Radia affair has exposed what we knew all along i.e. the fact he is a corrupt Congress stooge. However I concur with him that regional parties may emerge stronger and form a so-called Third Front govt. in 2014. That is a cause for worry as their previous record with the likes of Charan Singh and Deve Gowda has been utterly contemptible and a recipe for chaos. The BJP has to get its act together fast for India’s sake as the Congress cannot and will not think beyond its hopeless nincompoop dynasty.

[Reply]
anil

Is Zia Haq going insane? I could not make what point he is trying to make! Being a writer his language should be plain enough for others to understand what he is up to!

[Reply]
BS Reply:
July 16th, 2012 at 5:48 pm
Lol ask your bosses at RSS headquarters to give you something meaningful to read.

[Reply]
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