A dialogue table made of dynamite



An invitation to speak at a seminar on Future Directions in India Pakistan relations has left me at my wit’s end. The question defies easy answers even while agreeing that dialogue’s the only option. In a paper published in the Harvard International Review in 2009, National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon had minutely analyzed the complex state of play between our two countries to conclude: “The alternatives to a controlled and limited dialogue — of war and isolation— are either worse or counterproductive and would leave the field open to terrorist and extremist groups and their sponsors.”

Menon hadn’t assumed office as NSA when he wrote the paper. His post-Sharm-el-Sheikh views are broadly valid as there has been no major terrorist strike in India though Pakistan continues to prevaricate on bringing the makers of Mumbai to justice. A public spat there was after the barren Islamabad talks after Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi’s crassly undiplomatic outburst against Indian counterpart S M Krishna. The latter’s delicate handling of the ugly spectacle helped extricate the talks now moving at a tenuous pace— especially on the question of India furnishing evidence acceptable to the Pakistani Court trying the LeT conspirators of the Mumbai massacre.

But a lot that has since happened on our side of Kashmir and within Pakistan could have implications for any bilateral engagement. The floods that devastated large parts of Khyber-Pakhtookhwa, South Punjab and Sindh have seen the Pak Army and anti-India extremist groups gaining popular support at the expense of elected dispensations in Islamabad and in the provinces.

The ruling PPP’s credibility and that of Asif Zardari is at its lowest. The governance record and consequently the image of Nawaz Sharif’s Pakistan Muslim League that controls Punjab are relatively better. Unlike Pervez Musharraf who eventually paid the price of allowing militant tanzeems a free run in PoK after the 2005 earthquake, his successor Ashfaq Pervez Kayani has remained a very visible face in the Army’s flood relief efforts. Being the only amphibian force in Pakistan, the fauj alone could have reached the marooned areas. But such is the nature of that country’s polity that this simple point is lost in the scramble for credit among its multiple power centers. The Army shines in contrast as governments either lack credibility or come across as failing the people in their hour of crisis.

The Army’s graph and that of organizations such as the LeT rose in Pakistan at a time Indian security forces grappled with the upsurge in Srinagar and elsewhere in the Valley. The resultant complications: Islamabad’s refusal to directly accept New Delhi’s USD 25 million assistance for flood relief; Indo-Pak face-offs in the UN over Kashmir reminiscent of the early 1990s.

These developments almost brought to a knot the Thimpu resolve to reduce the trust deficit. Track-II diplomacy has been an immediate casualty of the growing distrust. Peaceniks on either side are either unheard or have found their voices stifled. Many of them fear the possibility of a war in the event of a repeat of Mumbai in India.

The ascendant anti-India lobby has within its grip Pakistani activists dividing time between civil liberties movements at home and cross-border peacemaking. They run now the risk of being branded “Indian moles or agents of an occupation force in Kashmir.” It is perhaps for this reason that many of them have lately come to India with a distinct “My side” bias. One such person slammed what she called India’s “collective arrogance” and another termed Kashmir as the “unfinished agenda” of Pakistan.

Such trends strike at the very roots of Track II initiatives so crucial for creating an ambience for peace and educating popular opinion on the other side’s legitimate concerns.

The Kashmir upsurge has made anti-India elements in Pakistan smell blood. To that extent, New Delhi is accountable for putting peacemakers on the defensive. What’s disappointing however is that much of India bashing is happening under an elected regime led by its nose by the Army leadership on key foreign policy issues such as AfPak, India-Pak and US-Pak. One cannot but help link Qureshi’s tandava in Islamabad to the Army’s discomfiture over Hedley’s deposition linking the ISI to Mumbai’s 26/11.

How then does India trust the lame-duck Pak regime’s promise to contain terrorism or bring the culprits of Mumbai to book? The dichotomy will remain even if the PPP is shown the door and PML (Nawaz) comes to power. To become Prime Minister for the third time, Nawaz Sharif will have to
reach a compromise with the military brass that has seen him take on four Army chiefs— including Asif Nawaz Janjua, Jehangir Karamat, Abdul Waheed Kakar and Pervez Musharraf — in his previous avatars as PM. He has held steadfastly thus far to his promise of not disturbing the PPP applecart as that’ll bring infamy to democratic forces and help the Army.

From all available indications, the Army leadership is even scared of Sharif who has unmatched popularity among the lower ranks of the Punjabi-dominated fauj. On bilateral issues, notably Kashmir, he’ll be negotiating tough with New Delhi. What makes him a better bet is his
policy of befriending India to deny the Army the threat perception it so often flaunts to limit or manipulate the democratic forces’ decision-making role in Pakistan.

Till the time Sharif returns and manages, if at all, a single window clearance, India will have to deal with Pakistan’s multiple power centers. And that, Menon admits in the paper, is a practical problem.

The other challenge before an Indian regime is the diminishing popular support for engaging with an “untrustworthy” Pakistan. Track-II protagonists could have altered such mindsets. But even they are fighting with their back to the wall.

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  • vijay kumar

    Nice to know that we are back to the question of how to proceed with Pakistan. Here is list of my frank suggestions.

    a) We keep talking to Pakistan, hoping that some elements would some day see the path of reason. However we also keep letting it decay that someday it finally dissolves into Baluchistan, Sindh and Punjab.

    b) We try to find some secular elements whom we should try to prop up. Now unfortunately the so called secular and reasonable elements like Zardari have turned out to be duds. So what do we do then? Maybe increase our soft power through a festival of films, music and dance? This will definitely hurt the feelings of most Indians who are still hurt by the relentless terror attacks.

    c) Let us use our forums for highlighting the problems of its Shias, Ahemadiyas, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Baluchis. Why cannot we talk to these tortured and brutalized minorities of Pakistan? They could be the agents of change.

    d) I firmly believe women to women interaction would make some difference. Once aPakistani women see that their Indian sisters do not live in the veil and are moving ahead in life and jobs, things could improve there. AN INDEPENDENT WOMAN WILL NOT ALLOW HER SONS TO BECOME A SUICIDE BOMBER . Maybe we should explore that track….

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  • Rajiv

    Mr Sharma might be embarassed, but I agree with almost everything written in this blog.

    The following observation was interesting..
    “One cannot but help link Qureshi’s tandava in Islamabad to the Army’s discomfiture over Hedley’s deposition linking the ISI to Mumbai’s 26/11.”

    So now we are expecting Pak civilian government/ISI will prosecute its own men involved in Mumbai massacre.

    I often am often amused at how Pak army/ISI has milked US for last 60 years and at the same time deceives and defrauds them. Its n con-art they have mastered and they deserve due credit for it.
    I have often seen a part of Indian media, where Indo-Pak peaceniks express themselves, just too willing to be hoodwinked and conned by the same Pak state. They ( Kuldip Nayar, most pro-china columnists writing in Hindu etc ) even resort to obfuscations and lies in persuit of their propogandist ideology.

    The Pak-army and ISI is a throughly dishonest, corrupt and institutionally criminal entity. Remember the mutilated bodies of the Indian men returned during Kargil while India gave a professional and respectful burial to the Pak soldiers whose bodies Pak army refused to accept fearing it would further expose their criminal complicity during Kargil, which they were liefully denying at that time to the whole world ?

    Sure we can have good relations and peace with Pakistan but we will fail to formulate a rational and practical response unless we fully recognize, without any prevarication, the dishonest and repugnant character of the entity we are dealing with. Pak civil governments are just the begging wing of the Pak army and its wastage of time to think they can change Pak policy towards India.

    The anti-India core of the Pak army is a yoke around the Pak state’s neck and if it sinks them , there is not much we can or should do.

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  • G. Mustafa

    Starting with an apology and not to hurt feelings of general public/peaceniks.

    After reading this post, I’ve come to firm conclusion that majority of Indians are unaware of the circumstance residing in Pakistan – its connection to Af-Pak, situation inside Afghanistan, terror spill from Afghanistan (in Pakistan), conspiracies residing in Afghanistan, intelligence agencies playing dirty games, Kashmir uprising – Mumbai terror investigation being taken over by IB, new petitions filed in Maharashtra high court to seek hand of ‘Abhinav Bharat ‘ in Mumbai incident and their links to external intelligence agencies like Mussad. Complete failure of tracking down those who came from Pakistan for Mumbai massacare (ironically never caught the eye of coast gaurd or naval marines) – unable to see from larger prespective of China’s role/rule to clinch assets in Central Asia and India being a thirsty and begged dog to look at it, so as to get some share as well from Afghanistan enrouting Cental Asia – Nearly 90% wipe out of Al-Zehwari group, Baituallah Mehsud’s TTP, almost done with Lashkar e Jhangvi and Sipah Sahabah – why america asking for table talks with taliban (haqqani, mulla umer) and Gulbadeen Hikmatyar. RAWs support to Uzbeks, to clinch Kabul, India begging and going to Saudis to have a soft hand and a back door channels talks with wahabi talibans. india offering ‘aman ki asha’ to Pakistan who they claim export terrorism globally that too when no culprit is trialed (or are they really culprits?).

    dialogue? … no need to rush despite so many power centers.

    Go and watch bollywood mirch masala or look for pegions outside tagged with LeT. Who needs LeT when you have Abhinav Bharat and other Hindutva elements inside you. I must say india(ns) are at the mercy and hands of extremely dangerous small brahminist element who have injected their poison in main stream media and intelligence agencies of India. Good luck.

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    bala srinivasan Reply:

    too much brain kurma or not enough OXYGEN to the BRAIN.eitherway your diatribe is facinatingly idiotic&conveys a glimpse into a convoluted **** mind.At this rate&extent of IQ deficit with you as an example of one INDIA will never have any solution to **** problem even if it wants.so the only solution is dissolve that artificial country of PURE&give the pashtuns all west of INDUS river.the baluch their autonomy&the problem will go away.

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    Harpreet Reply:

    You dont have to apologise. What you have stated is what can fit into our small mind. The state of affairs of Pakistan is a reflection of your own mean spiritedness and do not blame Afganistan/Mossad/CIA/RAW for that.

    Terror attacks like your country did in Mumbai in Nov 2008 and attacks before that can be managed from outside but a relentless and non stop continous cycle of violence with a spate of suicide attacks can only happen if the entire society is infested with extremists and terrorists and that is what is happening in Pakistan. Ahmediyas, Shias, Christians, HIndus , Sikhs are being butchered in their places of worship. Every major terror attack anywhere in the world has a Pakistani Link and terrorism is a way of life not only for the poor but for educated and well off people like Faisal Shahzad and Dr Afia Siddique.

    Your wishful list of home made allegations about Hindu extremism may provide you with some consolation and a component of conspiracy theory manufacturing plants in Pakistan but not even one of them is true nor you can prove it. Till now your government has failed to produce even a shred of an evidence of India’s alleged involvement in Balochstan. The extremists in India can not be put in the same bracket as those from Pakistan nor they are crossing border to kill Pakistanis. Raising voice/awareness against Pakistan sponsered terrorism does not make an Indian extremist. Why only India the rest of world is getting fed up with religious extremism radiating from Pakistan while the tax payers money is being funneled to bribe Pakistan to “fight” Terrorism.

    Why watch Bollywood Masala movies when your country itself is super hit Masala Movie these days ?

    Yes we do not need Good Luck from you. You need it more than us. We have Brahminical minds with us.

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    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Harpreet,

    Those who want to come out clean do not take course like Mumbai incident. They follow a simple rule: ’saannp bhi maray aur lathi bhi na tootay’, unfortunate for you to understand, that wasn’t the case on 26/11. Such militants have a specific agenda or terms of dictation and those who created havoc on that day didn’t fulfil this criteria. For the time being these are mere allegations and far far away from reality. These incidents are carefully orchestrated at the hands of those who cook and plant fraud and seeded evidences. These are not home made rather made inside your country and under your very nose. The small extremist brahminist element is operative under more than 20 organizations and have history much prior to creation of Pakistan. They dont need to cross the borders they make others believe we are victim and play fox. Let us have access to Kasab in your custody and under your observation things will come out clean.

    Like I said the moment you speak it is easy to judge that you are unaware of any situation on your east. Dr Afia had not killed a single soldier yet she is held for an attempt. I wonder if such is the terrorist activity how come she hadn’t killed anyone during her captivity in Afghanistan.
    Who cares for evidence of Balochistan – we know for sure. No need to prove it to you. The consulates are more than enough when hardly anyone would like to have a diplomatic relation with a war torn country.

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    arvind Reply:

    whats with you pakis and conspiracy theories ?
    i seriously hope that you don’t believe in all this **** which you have written. A year back when i was reading a article from nadeem f parcha in DAWN newspaper, he mentioned this conspiracy theory problem with his countrymen. he also cited some reasons like twisted education syllabus, new TRP hungry news channels who promote conspiracy theories beyond realm of common sense etc.
    but i didn’t believe it then………alas…..so it is true then.
    get some help my friend.

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    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Arvind did you find any reasoning for the geo-political situation from Paracha’s mouth. The guy is lame of such traits and knows only criticism.

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    Paul Reply:

    Mustafa is genetically inferior brain. Cannot think straight. He is a good material for Al-quiada if he
    drive a truck.

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    Akil Akhtar Reply:

    Sure your and Bala’s comment reflect an open and fair mind…..LOL. As long as you blame Pakistan for everything and brand it and its peoplea as evil it is intelligent but if someone points a finger at you they must be inferior or belong to AlQuaida.
    Bala, you need to give nagaland and kashmir Autonomy and maybe divide the artificial country called india into 16 smaller countries as India was put together by the Muslim rulers before them it was a pathetic bunch of multiple rajs not one country.
    India with its hughe military buildup is now a threat to all the neighbours with all of whom it has poor relationship.

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    abbas Reply:

    Is it why Pakistan is such a backward junk?

    Vikram Reply:

    Make India strong economically and militarily and treat our enemies like enemies

    jasbir Reply:

    It is interesting to look at the comments of people from both sides of south asia. I can only say that common people from both the sides suffer from the short sighted politics of both sides. During any calamity man made or god made, only common people suffer.

    Remember, first priority of both the countries should be to develop economically. Both the countries have complementry resources and shall benefit from bilateral trade. People from the both countries have same culture and it good to use this strength for betterment of common people. I am not a politician but have travelled around the world and find that if we are outside the south asia and meet anywhere in the world, we are best friend and understand each other better than the people from our own country.We love the song and language of each other country and their is a nostalgia about the people from the other side of the country.

    Just give a peacful thought to these small things and just remember, if both the countries prosper economically the possibility of existence of the countries shall be much more long lasting.

    These are very small period of the long history and future generation shall judge us based on our present deeds. Poor people of both the countries are laughing stock in the western media and time has come that people from both the countries give a pause and look inwards.

    Regards.

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    Azeez Md Reply:

    Yes just like what you read in school book about how to hate hindus… and jews.. and fellow shias and ahmadis right???? Terrorism and hatred and religous shame have been official trade marks of an international shame called Pakistan. Now we hear preaches from you about dirt in your mind. Make sure your son does not become one buddy.

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    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Mr MD, good to know you too are media fed – state some more reasoning and reference to support your thoughts. When was the last time you had a look at a school book taught in Pakistan?

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  • jAI

    Let Pakistan behave as country first.
    As I see Pakistan behaving like a desert tribe being ruled by a militia. This Militia is feeding itslef at the cost of 180 million people and than telling them that they are protecting them against a kafir India. Religion is working as an effective anasthesia.
    Pakistan army does not want to committ suicide by being friendly with India.No matter what India does they will find something to keep hositilities alive.

    Inaction in 26/11 case is deliberate and is preventing Manmohan Singh to offer any serious dialogue.

    I WANT TO WARN INDIA TO TIGHTEN SECURITY BEFORE OBAMA’S INDIA VISIT. PAKISTAN WILL TRY TO SO SOMETHING OUTRAGOEUS TO BRING KASHMIR INTO HEADLINES.

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  • Azhar Hussain

    @ bala

    Why is it when someone gives you guys taste of your own medicine, speak the language most of you speak that you people go out of control…relax ok…Uncle Sam and NATO Gores are getting a beating of their lifetime, across our border in Afghanistan. India is actively involved in in Pakistan with the support of CIA, NATO and Afghan regime…. Once these ugly gora’s run away in 2011, then you guys will just disappear from there as well.

    Mustafa good job explaining it to them, but I have been here long enough to tell you these jokers will go on and on with the same stale talk about Pakistan and Muslims.

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    Happy Reply:

    Patriotism and borrowed wording are not enough prove a lie.

    What did Mustafa said ? Can you or your govenrment prove any of those “fantastic” allegations ??
    Your government till date could not offer even a shred of an evidence of India’s alleged involvement in Balochstan. Do you know that ?

    You can say for sake of saying anything but the fact is this that :

    1.Pakistan is one of very few countries and perhaps only country in the world that disintegrated into two in 1971 while trying to disintegrate India. It has no parallel in the history.

    2. Pakistan is highest recipient of international aid. It is a country that is practically living on borrowed or aid money. In fact situation inside Pakistan is worse than Afganistan. I dont think any country anywhere in the world which makes hysterical appeals for aid will than refuse an aid coming from next door neigbhour as if beggars want to be choosers. Only Pakistan can pull this miracle. and than after being laughed at accepted the 5 million plus 20 million US$ too. HOw childish !

    3. Hundreds of suicide attacks and thousands of people killed in terror attacks in this year alone by home grown terrorists. The Toll in Karachi has reached over 50 and still counting. No one knows who is killing whom! A classic sign of a failed state.

    4. With less than 15 billion dollars in Foreign excahnge that too only from loan and aid this is one country that has begging bowl ready after every 10 mm of rain from sky and blame India for drought As if nothing is under Pakistan’s own control.

    5. Pakistan is the only country that is someone’s ally (USA NATO) someone’s close friend (China) someones’ enemy (India) and someone’s savoiur (Afganistan) but has no identity of its own.

    6. Think Tanks, Intellegence chiefs, Security experts, Consultants, Columnists, Heads of State and heads of governments have repeatedely stated that Pakistan is hub of terrorism. See what international media has to say about Pakistan.

    7. Pakistan still continue living in denial and seek compensatory allowances in form of hurling allegations at India without any evidence.

    8. Your dream that “Goras” are having their lifetime nightmares in Afganistan and will leave soon speaks volume of your ignorance and immaturity. How can you even afford the luxury of seeing these dreams of controlling a sovereign country through proxies when your own country is barely breathing?

    Stories about Pakistan are based on what you Pakistanis do they will remain samethey are always fresh. Go read waht is written about Pakistan in international media and tell me if you find anything good.

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    Sal Reply:

    @Happy

    Why not I give you some of the facts about India too.

    1) India is the country which stands at 67th place in hunger index just above Bangladesh in 2010 while Pak stands at 52th place. The only country in the world (India) where the the total numbers of poors who are living below poverty line are more than the total numbers of poors of whole of the Africa. 1/3 of the world’s poors live in a country called India which makes her the world’s largest country of poors on the planet. A country where 200,000 farmers have committed sucides in last 10 years for not paying the debt.

    2) India is the country which is still showing a territory (Azad Kashmir, Aksi chin) in its map from last 63 years but have never had it.

    3) A country where dozens of separatist movments going on in every corner of the country left and right from Kashmir to Assam,Nagaland, Mizoram etc.

    4) The only country in the world where a certain sections of the community who are fighting only because of poverty. Where Maoist and Naxalites are forced to take their arms up and fight against upper cast Hindus who has made their life hell from hundreds of years. And as a result 250 districts of total 600 distrcits of India are now out of Indian control and these 250 distrcits make them a “Red Corridor” and Indian PM has forced to say that Maoist and Naxalits are the biggest threat of Indian union.

    5) India is the only country in the world who himself has gone to UN and gave a proposal of holding a plebescite in a Valley but didnt keep her promise. Because India knows very well what would be the result of that plebescite and what answers Kashiris give you in a plebecite. And then India is the only country in the world who wants to get a permanet seat of the same UN security council from last 63 years who has passed resolutions on Kashmir.

    6) India is the only country in the wolrd where massive riots have occured where you find burnt churches, demolished mosques, raped nuns, raped muslims women, burnt Gurdawa where thosands of muslims, Sikhs, christians, Dalist have got killed but still India the only country in the worlds call herself a Secular.

    7) None of the neighbour of India is happy with India. Leave alone Pak and China the countries like Sri Lanka, Nepal, Burma are not happy with India. And India the country in the world who has disputes not only with Pak and china but with all of its neighbouring countries either in terms of boundary, land or water disputes.

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    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Sal
    How warped your thinking can be?
    You people got the land, which was most fertile region of whole subcontinent, canal system built by English people had brought lot of prosperity. So during last 63 years, you people have deteriorated so much that you are at 57 place in hunger? Shame on you people for making mess of that rich region. India was very poor to begin with, may be it would have occupied 100th place in world for hunger, but in last so many decades, it is having 67th place? so who is progressing and who is going down hill?
    Only two Indians- ambanis can purchase whole of karachi stock exchange listed companies, this is a pakistani journalist comment. More than 40000 millionaires in dollar terms and more than 50 billionaires in dollat terms. more than combined billionaires from china. Income of average Indian is raising faster than average pakistani getting poorer.
    so do not harp on poor Indians, they are improving every day and you people…? why you constantly compare pakistan with India, You are with Muslim League and we are Progressive League.
    if I start narrating Indian Achievements, this blog will be small for that.
    Drink cold water, shut your eyes and think of improving pakistan.

    Sal Reply:

    @Pankaj

    Your list is worng…

    Pak is at 52th place. Not at 57th Place and India is at 67th place. Here is the overall list and I am giving it for you…China is at 9th place, Pak at 52 th place, Nepal at 57th place, India at 67th place and Bangladesh at 68th Place in hunger index 2010. The same reports also tell 42% of children facing malnutrition in the world resides in India.

    Pak didnt have any factory in 47 unlike your TATA which british left it for you in 47. Similarly Pak didnt have a single university in 47 while India in 47 had several universities. Similarly all the defense oriented factories came in India in 47 while Pak recieved none. Similary Pak didnt get any infrastrucure unlike India. Pak had to and had developed entirely new city named “Islamabad” as their new capital unlike Delhi which you got it from British as your ready made capital. So if you compare developments then Pak has done a lot better than your counterpart keeping in mind of 47.

    Now I come to your same old indian mantara. First let me tell you Ambanis faces significan loses in recession and they are already fighting with each other. 80% of India lives less than 2$ in a day then why not you suggest Ambanis to give few billion US$ to your millions of poor countrymen afterall Indis is the world’s largest country of poors on the planet. Then think about Pak but perhaps one of Ambani is busy in making a billion $ home for his family in a country where millions get births on road, live all their life on roads and died on that roads.

    22% of Pak lives less than 1$ in a day while 43% of India lives less than 1$ in a day (references available) but India has few billionarie US$ so India’s PCI gets increased by their income. If you just take thse few billionarei US$ from India’s 1 billion of population then Indian PCI is less than 1000 and this is the reaon only 22% of Pak lives less than 1$ in a day..just half of India’s %.

    So Perhaps, you get cool down and think for a while. And please do me a favor..Dont give me those bull**** which you media tells them to you.

    James Reply:

    @Azhar Hussain,the fact is that pakistan is a dishonest nation to the core.Do you think Afghans will trust you again?You guys are least bothered about the welfare of poor Afghans.You supported Taliban to get a leverage against India.Then you helped USA to get rid of Taliban for money.What the hell are you talking about.The fact is that you are a failed nation that survives only on aid from other countries.You got no respect anywhere in the world and talk about muslims around the world.
    Try getting citizenship of Saudi or UAE or Oman,they also treat you like rubbish.The fact is that you are like venomous snakes who always try to poison the country where you live,beit US or Europe or Southern Thailand or Philipines and India of Course.Look at your dysfunctional and highly criminalised society first.

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    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Sal

    You are wrong at least on one point and that shows you hardly care for the facts. Pakistan had Panjab University at Lahore in 1947 and we here in Punjab had to build from scratch our part of the Panjab University which is now in Chandigarh. While Panjab University in Chandigarh counts among the 500 top world ranked universities(if you care for the recent survey) your Punjab University has never been heard of. Besides IITs at Delhi and Kanpur rank among the top five engineering institutes in the world. A little more, IIM at Ahmedabad ranks higher than some of the renowned business schools in USA. One more fact, all these institutes came into existence after 1947 when British had no role at all in the establishment of these educational institutions.
    Lastly, after partition, a new city had to be planned and built to make it the capital of Punjab. I mean Chandigarh designed by the well known French architect.
    Best wishes
    BNA

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    Sal Reply:

    @Dr B N Anand

    Yes..I have missed Punjab University (Lahore) earlier. I am not sure whetther it had the status of university in 47 or not. But I buy your claim that Pak had one university in 47.

    Kindly dont compare Islamabad with Chandigurh as Islamabad is capital of Pak and Chandigarh is not capital of India. Pak too had developed new cities but here I am talking about capital which is a different thing.

    I would love to see that survey of 500 universities. I know some Indian universities came in list of 500 but I want o see that survey. So could you please post that link.

    abbas Reply:

    Ugly goras will not run away buddy-not until they divide your nation to two -which will happen inshallah.
    Balochistan will get the freedom or….. Pakistan will end!

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  • James

    India is wasting time time talking to Pakistan,a failed state with no hope of getting any better.It’s a decaying society based on hate and resentment.We should build better people to people ties with china instead.Chinese can be our good friends if we learn to deal with them.

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  • neel123

    @ the Indian folks,
    Pakistan is a country owned by it Military.
    It is clear that the Pakistani army is not going to change its policies towards the Afghan Taliban…. and the Americans have their own plans to deal with that………. they will appear to be helping Pakistan with the economic and military aid while making sure Pakistan continues to burn…… and at some point down the road the the scale will tilt to point of no return ………. but the whole thing will be allowed to happen in a slow and controlled way …. !
    India does not have to do anything….. all it needs to do is to strengthen its own border defense and watch from a safe distance.

    @ the Pakistani folks,

    The AfPak conflict about the American Eurasia strategy. The big issue is whether the Pakistani army would be on America’s side, or China’s. The Americans are seeking a clear answer from Pakistan, while Pakistan is playing a double game and trying to extract concessions on Kashmir. This will not go on for ever. If and when Pakistan would declare its real intentions of siding with the Chinese at the expense of the Americans, the end game for Pakistan will begin.

    Scenario One :
    If the US-NATO forces decide to leave Afghanistan in the hands of the Taliban, as you Pakistanis are so eagerly expecting, and allow the country to go back to 2001 position with the Pakistan regaining control through its surrogate, then it would indeed be a victory for the Pakistani Army, and force India to go back to the drawing board.

    Scenario Two :
    But if it does not happen, then rest assured, Pakistan has no future.

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    G. Mustafa Reply:

    The two scenarios are correct. Few more scenarios are there as well. Dont know your nationality but i would commend you for your analysis. An exception case.

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    Rajeev Reply:

    Absolutely correct. Ignore mullahs like mustafa.

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    vijay kumar Reply:

    @vinod Sharma,

    You have heard 181 opinions. Now let us know what is the agenda you will take to the dialogue table?

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    vinod sharma Reply:

    @Vijay Kumar
    I don’t run away from difficult answers so thanks for helping me a la Amitabh Bachchan in Kaun Banega….. I favour a limited dialogue at the current juncture with Pakistan on terrorism and the ongoing trial in that country of the Mumbai accused. It will also help if we open back channels with their army and intelligence agencies .That must be done because the trust deficit is more between the two security establishments. It may or may not help.But is certainly worth a shot.

    vijay kumar Reply:

    @vinod Sharma,

    Do you think there is a possibility of India creating a lobby in the Pakistani security esablishment which is pro- peace. We don’t have to do what they did with Madhuri Gupta, but surely there can be other means. Is it a possibility or do you feel that their army and ISI is too deeply committed to keep the pot boiling to think of anything good? (like I feel)

    bobby sen Reply:

    The US -Nato forces cannot leave Afghanistan in hands of taliban. US has no choice but to eliminate Taliban and al-qaeda. It is only wishful thinking on part of some fools in Pakistan. Pakistan’s policies are taking it down the drain and they are unable to see it, blaming everything else for their problems.

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    neel123,
    Glad that you brought China in the equation. Speaking at a very broad level – My sense is the global trade wars we are going to witness / or more aptly witnessing already are going to have some serious military ramifications in our part of Asia. Pray that India and Pakistan don’t become pawns Chimerican conflict.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Mahesh,
    It reminded the thread we left in between long ago. Construction works in Afghanistan carried out by China. Though, India can also participate (and is participating) in this, I would prefer India to stay away from this helping neighbors business. End of the day, US will eventually pull out. The next ruler would be a Talibani (or a person at their mercy) who would not entertain India, as Taliban just hates Indians. In that case, why should our engineers pledge their lives for rebuilding work in Afghan? If there are many other players who are interested, let them do it. As I always advocate. India should take a neutral stand in all its surrounding area(no helps required) and strict defensive (with efficient intelligence) approach in its own land. In a world where bhai doesn’t remain bhai, let us not go in search of brotherhood with Chinese, Pakistanis or Afghans.

    [Reply]

  • http://hindustantimes.com riaz kashmiri

    I believe it is time that India should accept the ground realities in Kashmir. Listen to the demands of Kashmiris. More than a million Indian army have not been able to suppress the people in the valley and their right of self determination. India needs to stop blaming Pakistan for all the troubles in Kashmir and settle this long outstanding dispute with Pakistan according to the wishes of the people of Kashmir.

    [Reply]

    rajiv Reply:

    The peacnik idiots should read the comments of Pakistanis here , maybe then they will understaend something of that depraved, deranged mind that has reduced Pakistan today to what it is.
    I have defined that depraved entity in detail many times but more than any words, its the situation of Pakistan ( cut in 1/2 in 1971 ) and much worse today than ever before, that speaks for itself.

    If Jinnah defined it as moth eaten in his lifetime, I wonder if there are any civil words to adequately define the current entity.

    [Reply]

    abbas Reply:

    agreed-what do you get from a nation that feeds religious hatred to its people-asifs and amirs of cricket not tendulkars!!! Otherwise you get rogue like AQ Khan not Abdul kalam. Just like that what you see here are insects of such quality filled with religious filth and stench…
    These rogues have studied hindu hatred in their life and come here to talk about how peaceful they are…

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    OK

    [Reply]

    Ketan Kaul Reply:

    The religion based hysterical frenzy in Kashmir is not a genuine freedom struggle. Kashmir does not belong to muslims. Pakistan has a hidden and self destructive agenda in Kashmir and is misusing religion to provoke muslims population which finds it handy to extract concessions/ packages from central govt. It is a mischief that would die its own death.
    Whatever the strength of army in J&K is none of anyone’s business. Army is in cantonments and will stay in J&K to stop Pakistan to indulge in a bigger stupidity. We the people of India stand firmly stand behind our army.

    [Reply]

    abbas Reply:

    India will win in Kashmir just like Balochistan will get freedom by 2015!!

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Masrat Alam was saying same thing an hour ago but after 3rd degree welcome, he is singing a different tune. Is baar is kashmiri ka band baja denge.

    [Reply]

  • Vinod

    I would call the multiple centers of power as multiple FACES of Pakistan. Civilian Govt is the BEGGING face, Army is the RULING face and the ISI is the TERRORIST face. Between them all these entities are ” PHASING ” out the reality of the land !

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Vinod

    “I would call the multiple centers of power as multiple FACES of Pakistan. Civilian Govt is the BEGGING face, Army is the RULING face and the ISI is the TERRORIST face. Between them all these entities are ” PHASING ” out the reality of the land ! ”

    after reading your comments , i am having a feeling that you are high on drugs. the “phasing out ” term absolutely makes no sense , especially after 26/11 attacks.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    typo “after reading your statement”

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    @Vinod
    Yes, I agree with you that army is the ruling face of Pakistan. If that was not so, why the Army chief Gen. Kayani would have been leading the Pakistan delegation to the strategic talks with USA? This is unlike our coumntry where all such important talks of strategic nature are led by the PM or one of his senior most colleague. The civilian govt. in Pakistan seems to be at the mercy of the army and a puppet whose strings are being pulled by the army.
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Dr Anand,

    The strategic talks are follow ups on the geo-political situation of the region and military strategies to combat insurgency along the Af-Pak border. This is led by defense ministry and army officials. On numerous occasions we have witnessed American military delegation arriving in Islamabad to hold such talks as well and comes after to high delegatries like secretary H. Clinton has visited Islamabad many times and Foreign minister SM Qureshi form our side. So the preposition is not entirely true.

    Regards,
    Usman

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    Good to interact with you now and always.
    Yes, what I had stated was also based on news reports in Pakistan media some times back. May be , as Mr. Mustafa, now mentions(just after your post) that FM Qureshi will be heading Pakistan team for the strategic dialogue with USA may be new development. That is OK.
    But I hope you , in your hearts of hearts, must have a feeling that a pro-active army is always a big risk factor for a fragile democracy in your country. But we do hope that the fragile democracy ,as it is in Pakistan, gets strengthened and survives for all the times.

    With friendly greetings
    BNA

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Dr Anand,

    Feelings are mutual and i have always enjoyed exchange of views with you.

    I would tilt my opinion aligning with your statement, exception to this case. During military rule this was somewhat what i have also witnessed and should be replaced with strong foreign and external affairs ministry build upon concrete democratic values.

    Regards,
    Usman

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    This time as well FM Qureshi is ahead to the trip to US and followed by elite army officials.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    @ Mr. Mustafa
    Thanks Mr. Mustafa for this information.
    BNA

  • Kushagra

    Sharmaji, you spent decent amount of time in Pakistan, however one only sporadically finds your own experiences of interaction with Pakistanies in your blog. It would be nice to know if you share some of your own experiences more regularly. It would help us ascertain if average Pakistanies are like what we find regularly in your blog.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    average Pakistanis are far more worse that those on the blog

    [Reply]

  • Indian_Abroad

    The world has recognized Pakistan as culprit beyond any doubt. India not getting along with Pakistan or China is not going to hurt its international image or prospects. Sure both Pakistan and China can slow down India’s economic march through mischieves. Pakistna knows this and tries to blackmail India. If the wellbeing of Kashmiris was truely at Pakistan’s heart, why did it vertually sold POK to China? If Pakistanis and its ISI are genuinely for the cause of muslims’ freedom, why they are not fighting for the opressed muslims in China? Even if India gives Kashmir to Pakistan, Arunachal to China, they would not want India to progess peacefully. Laaton Ke Bhoot Baton Se Nahi Maante. Ofence is the best way of defence. India need to engage Pakistan and China on freedom of Balochistan and Tibet.

    [Reply]

  • Ahmed Baloch

    Pakistan will torn to peices by USA and great NATO. All mighty Indians will help us like Bangladesh war so that we baloch will be the INDEPENDENT BALOCHISTAN.
    BALOCHISTAN ZINDABAAAAAAAD. One Indian soldier can get 20 Pakistan cowards.

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    The tone doesn’t look like you are Baloch. It would have ended on a different note something to hail his Balochi identity rather than Indian- to the best of knowledge you are disguised under a mask. Its better if you reveal your true identity.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Baloch Reply:

    Just like the tone of your illusions in Kashmir right? Until Balochistan gets its freedom, nothing will happen. We were never and will never be a part of Pakistan. Like Bangladesh we will achieve freedom even without Indias help. Fool Mustafa… we have been waging media war since 2000. In your hatred for Balochs and Ahmadis, you have become an animal like millions of you in Pakistan. Only a fool will think Pakistan will survive.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ahmed Bhai,
    Why don’t you show Mustafa your circumcised d**k and beheaded bodies of 7 pakistanis to prove you are balochi?

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Baloch Reply:

    With allahs blessings we will get 50 of them not 7. We need help then we will show what hunting is….

    [Reply]

  • Jai Tiwari

    At the end of the day, India has to ask itself – is its military powerful enough to contain the Pakistan military? If not, then negiotiate and make peace re: Kashmir. If the answer is yes that it can, then wait for the next Mumbai-style attack and go for it…winner takes all!! My gut feeling tells me though that India knows the Pakistan army will not only fight but with nuclear parity and better delivery systems, it could threaten India with total destruction if it came down to the winner take all scenario!! Of course Pakistan also faces the same scenario. The point I wish to make is that with the India-Pakistan military equation now so balanced, it amuses me to see Indians calling themselves a ’superpower’ whereas the Pakistanis do not!! India has not been able to coerce Pakistan into any agreement on any issues, including the terror attacks in Mumbai and I doubt that if there was another attack as such, India could do much anyway!!

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    Vinod has already proved that he is a perpetual ****** , so why is he again doing that ???

    through his blog posts that support Indo-Pak friendship , Mr Sharma tries to stress the very fact that he lacks logic and reasoning ability.

    despite of so many incidents where Pakistan has offended India by some or the other way , dumbarse people like Vinod try to stress “need for peaceful relation with Pakistan”.

    he thinks the deaths of innocent Indians killed in Pakistan sponsored terror attacks is a minor issue that can be forgotten. i hope Mr Vinod hasnt lost any near ones in any such attack.

    by the way , Vinod , do know about the kind of inhuman and unexplainable treatment , captain Saurabh Kalia and his five other soldiers receive during the 1999 Kargil war ??? i am sure , that must be trivial thing for you

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    by the way , along by calling him “Congress ka agent ” , let us also justifiably refer to him as “Pakistan ka agent”

    [Reply]

  • SKChadha

    Vinod ji,

    You have rightly described that now a day’s many monkeys are dancing on a large decaying tree known as Pakistan with ‘Apni Apni Dhafli, Apana Apana Raag’. It is not clear to me as to how you see Sharif (of course not so Shareef) as a ‘Madari’ who can control all of them and keep afloat the general public drowning in floods and killed by bombardments of drones and homegrown terrorists. Few monkeys on tree are becoming cannibalism gorillas ….. ha ha ha.

    I see tacit silence in your blogs to analyze the cause of ‘diminishing popular support’ of peace talks in India. The ‘Shimla Agreement’ is signed by both countries and is also been approved by Pak’s national assembly. How far it is followed by Pakistan in letter and spirit? You talk of trust deficit. To my opinion it is a situation of no trust at all …!! I know many people are running on Indo-Pak Tracks. Whether it is Track I or Track II ..?? Their job is to be in race, as it helps them, to claim their compensations for job well done. I am not sure whether these runners will reach to the final point in our life time? Let us see and hope for future.

    [Reply]

  • VIjay Kumar

    With the ISI hand coming out so clear in the Mumbai attacks and General Musharaff proudly boasting that he thought Kargil was an outstanding adventure, there is little hope dialogus will achieve anything.

    We can only talk for the sake of talks so that tensions do not reach a flashpoint of war. Meanwhile we should start helping the Baluchis, Shias, SIkhs, HIndus, Ahemadiyas, Christians and women of Pakistan to establish a secular- non fundamantalist democracy as well as aid the final dissolution of Pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Dear Vinodji,

    So Mani Aiyar’s allegations of 70,000 crores wasted are finally going to ruin the COngress itself !!

    Is’nt there a man in the Congress to stand up and say that the actual figure was 1620 crores for games and about 3000 crores for the stadia. And the rest on the infrastrucure of Delhi, the total figure being about 20,000 crores.

    This definately demoralises athletes. It definately makes fun of India.

    So with friends like Mani Aiyar, the Congress has finally a “ghar ka bhedi….”

    And may end up harming the Congress’ electoral chances in the next elections. What a joker !!! :)

    The corruption probe should be focused with a realistic probe into the spending of 20,000 crores and actual kickbacks probably a fraction of that.

    However this sort of joke of shouting scam… rape.. scam… only creates anger in the public.

    That is why Mani Aiyar is the “silencer’ Congress will regret it harboured…. :) :)

    [Reply]

  • (Dr.) B.N.Anand

    Dear Vinod Sharma ji
    So you also feel that the Indian govt. runs the risk of becoming unpopular with the people of India by engaging in talks with an “untrustworthy” Pakistan. That is indeed the popular view of the people in the country and I am glad that ultimately, you could read the pulse of the people.That is all the more logical going by the existence of multi power centres in Pakistan. I think that is not a new situation . It had been so even when Mr. Nawaz Sharief was the PM of Pakistan. While he was signing the Lahore declaration with PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the Pakistan army was planning the Kargil . President Musharraf does not regret that adventure(misadventure ) even now and says that is a legitimate right of a Nation to do any thing in the national interest. He cites !971 war to justify his Kargil planning. So this is an unending discussion. It is indeed a big dilemma for the Indian leadership whether to be at all involved in any dialogue process with our neighbour and in the process lose the support of Indian people.
    So, because of the geographical factors in which we are placed vis-a-vis our neighbour, the benign neglect can be the only option. Even with this approach, it is possible to do business with Pakistan without any emotional element in a strict business like manner.
    Though you still fondly nourish the idea of a dialogue with our neighbour,which we all also support in normal circumstances, but then have to go rather reluctantly with the general opinion of the people in the country. Let us wait for the good times.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    lthough there are lots of things to be discussed with PAkistanis, there are no legitimate Pakistani to discuss with.

    Under the current flux, we should let pakistan self destruct. Our border shsould be protected. Whoever wins the current Pakistani game, army, civilian, or terrorists – we wotrk with them to bring peace.

    We should not spent energy on PAkistan…it has not done an y good in the last 60 years

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    With Headley’s confessions detailing how deeply the ISI was involved in the MUmbai terror attacks, what should be the appropriate response from India?

    [Reply]

  • B.V.SHENOY

    Jinnah called it moth eaten. In 1971, India destroyed the moth. Now what remains is (to be) eaten by vultures and “eliminated”, though gradually. We must help it self-destroy by giving a nudge here, a push there. And if there happens another 26/11, we may give it a final shove.

    Dear Vinodji, there is nothing you have not said before, even repeatedly, but there is a very discernible sense of failure, a sense of rejection (by our people) of what you stood for. You are actually pursuing a lost cause, a failed mission. You should, for a change, see what the Pakistanis want and what they are prepared to do to achieve it. Constant bleating about plebiscite in Kashmir will only harden the already fixed attitude of we Indians.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Shenoy,

    You have stated: “Jinnah called it moth eaten”. Could you provide any reference to this statement?

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @B.V.SHENOY
    Cripps Scheme
    While the British reaction to the Pakistan demand came in the form of the Cripps offer of April, 1942, which conceded the principle of self-determination to provinces on a territorial basis, the Rajaji Formula (called after the eminent Congress leader C.Rajagopalacharia, which became the basis of prolonged Jinnah-Gandhi talks in September, 1944), represented the Congress alternative to Pakistan. The Cripps offer was rejected because it did not concede the Muslim demand the whole way, while the Rajaji Formula was found unacceptable since it offered a “moth-eaten, mutilated” Pakistan and the too appended with a plethora of pre-conditions which made its emergence in any shape remote, if not altogether impossible. Cabinet Mission The most delicate as well as the most tortuous negotiations, however, took place during 1946-47, after the elections which showed that the country was sharply and somewhat evenly divided between two parties- the Congress and the League- and that the central issue in Indian politics was Pakistan.

    Read again and again B.V.SHENOY, and try to digest the meaning of whole paragraph. The rest of comments of Indians is nothing byt wishful thinking. And as far as 1971 goes, why are you guys crying over what is happening in Kashmir. Do you realling think that we will sit with our hands folded while your country hell bent creating problems. I know it hurts but payback is payback.

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Well Done Azhar! – he wont give a damn to have a look in a true sense. It speaks high for Jinnah Sahab to reject such case and such remote Pakistan. Again it speaks high the way Shenoy twist and turned to suit his wishes.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Jinnah was first terrorist in modern times.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Forget cabinet mission, 1942,1946, 1947 or Jinnah/Muslim leagues’s vulgar communalization of politics with Taleban emerging as the true heirs of a state whose only identity is a 6th-7th century ideology imported from the tribal arid lands of Arabia.

    Deal with 1/2.Pakistan entity of today, ruled by its infinitely imposter army-ISI in league with vulgar and criminal militants , all in name of the ideology from Arabia.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Rajiv did you look in the mirror today when you woke up. We all know too well your hindu vulgar crimminal mind and your record as well.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Dear Azhar;
    It seems that in anger, you become some what coherent in language but its contents become muddled.
    You say, it is payback time for the humiliation of 71, when you people not only lost half country, but famous, fearsome Pakistani Army, meekly surrendered. Death of only 5000 soldiers could have stalled indian Army, and then you would have been rescued by Uncle Nixon. But that was not to be.
    Now, certainly, you are not a spokesperson for Government of Pakistan or ISI, are you?
    Because day in and day out they protest their innocense and convey the message that they are lost babes in the wood.
    Every body knows about Pakistan and its deeds in fomenting terrorism in whole world, but as and when India reach that point of supporting insurgencies in pakistan, your bossom buddy, China will not be able to do anything, as happened during 71. So, fight only in your weight, do not expect overt help in any misadventure from any body. By the way, have you noticed that Pakistan has been reduced to be a middle man(there is a bad word for this position in Urdu) by trying to make friends of Turkey and China. You people are always ready to be subservient to others like for America meeting China in Nixon time or China meeting Turkey at present. Improve your country, you will not get much commission on this middle man business.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Pakistan ka matalab
    duniya ka dalal humko kya..

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    :) :) :) Welcome … welcome !! :)

    Two Baluchi brothers have come on this site ….

    Gentlemen…. let us give a big hand to Ahemad Baluch!!

    Let us also promis him that we will be at his side till the evil Pakistani fauj does not leave Baluchistan !!!

    Cheers :) :) :)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    A hearty welcome to Balochi brothers. Please post atrocities committed by punjabi-pakhtoon pakistanis on brave baloch nation.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    I think India and the liberal democrats of Pakistan should only have one agenda in mind. How to destroy the evil ISI.

    Imagine a primary school where cute youngsters are playing cricket.

    Then come in the evil ISI men and the pig-shit Gen Hamid Gul.

    He has an evil plan. To brainwash the kids to become suicide bombers. He calls them one by one and says, ” Azhar… Sal…. Chalo bulaya aaya hai… Allah ne bulaya hai…”

    he and his na mard ISI men tie bombs around the belts of Azhar and Sal and then say, “Pyaara Pakistani boys… go that mosque where Shias and Baluchis are praying… and press this button… you will kill kafirs and go to jannat”

    And both Azhar and Sal choose an area where Shias, Hindus, Baluchis are working and then
    press the trigger.

    And Whooommm/… Thye kill innocents. They go to jahunnam.

    Azhar and Sal. Is this why you love the ISI and Hamid GUl so much??/ :) :)
    And whoom

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Vijay

    Thats what they teach you in school or is that the paranoid in you going wild……Go back to sleep and keep dreaming….nothing new in your post.

    When are you going to dismentle RAW….and don’t tell me they are not doing the same C R A P in outher countries.

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    Azhar baby,

    It may sound nice to live in the USA and then curse it all the time. Think of your brotheres and sisters in Pakistan. They are not sure when the next drone will come….

    Being your well wisher I sincerely hope you do not become a suicde bomber under the instigation of pig shit generals like Hamid gul and ISI :)

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Vijay – Your example is a true depiction of a childish and kindergarten kid. :)

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Azhar – how come you ended up under the very nose of vijay? oh i recall it is jahanum. :)

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    Nice one. I guess pakistanis are playing ‘Blow up Mosque/Dargah’ game daily. This is PPL i.e. Pakistan Premier league.

    These ******** blew up dargah of Shahbaz Qalandar.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Ahmed Balouch

    Like Bangladeshis, your day of freedom too shall come.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Kashmir is where full blown insurgency going on buddy….and they are next in line for freedom from your hindu nation

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Rajiv how is it that going to be??

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Do you remember how 7 punjabi muslims were beheaded by Balochi freedom fighters few days back?

    We will extend moral support :) to balochis so that they can defeat punjabi pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Baloch Reply:

    Words are not enough we need action.
    Dear indian friends………
    GO TO http://WWW.FREEBALOCH.BLOGSPOT.COM … PLEASE MAKE IT FAMOUS IN YOUR FRIENDS FOR OUR FREEDOM. SPREAD IT AS MUCH AS YOU CAN EVERY DAY……

    Rajeev Reply:

    Ahmed,
    We are with you. You will see us on your blog soon.

  • Rajiv

    @Vijay,

    Regarding Pakistani Daood Gilani/Headley’s sworn testimony about detailed involvement of Pak army/ISI in training and funding the terrorists of 26/11 Mumbai attack, its not a surprise for India or anything new that India did not know.

    Numerous attacks over past two decades, from Parliament attack to attacks on various temples, trains have been conducted by the Pak state on behalf of the people of Pakistan for the greater glory of Pakistani Islam.

    His testimony, should have been an eye opener for any sane elements left in Pakistan, who may not be fully aware of the activitioes of its ISI/Army about how deeply the Pak state is involved in criminal activities , all in the name of the people of Pakistan and for the greater glory of Islam.

    However , as expected, the revelations have not made an iota of difference to the people of Pakistan or to the nature and future trajectory of the Pak entity.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajiv when are going to punish the terrorist who killed 65 Pakistanis in your slumdog country

    [Reply]

    G. Mustafa Reply:

    Azhar – it starts off with a horrible history – to be honest they have had a lot in planting and seeding bombs in Pune, Ahmadabad, Mumbai, Nagpur, Ajmair. How is it that they would spare Pakistanis from this. Samjhota Express massacare culprit Lt Col Prohit is still out there planning for more.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    According to CIA, Samjhauta blast was done by LeT.

    Indian govt. is blaming hindus for the blast because it is trying to cultivate muslims votes.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    ISI has a hand in population growth in INdia. Rajeev where are all your men.

  • http://- Rajeev

    Please vote on the fate of pakistan-

    1. Pakistan will become another Tibet in next 10 years and merge with China.
    2. Pakistan will break into 4 parts with Balochistan and Sindh aligning with India and Pakhtunwa with Afghanistan, leaving punjabi pakistan alone.
    3. Pakistan will implode resulting in all out civil war ending with defeat of punjabi rulers.
    4. Pakistan will be declared rogue nation with most of the world putting sanction on it.
    5. Pakistan will lose ally China and North Korea & will be isolated.
    6. Pakistan will continue to exist as terrorist nation causing mayhem in civillized world.

    [Reply]

    Ahmed Baloch Reply:

    We want seperate country Balochistan no matter what !!!!! We are friends with India. is India helping us?? India is welcome to do business in free balochistan.
    The revenge of millions of balochs deaths is pending for Pakistani soldiers

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Frustration at its peak, Rajiv. Baita wake up, drink one glass of your holy drink and go to school.

    [Reply]

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Azhar Hussain,

    Aap baar baar school, school kehte rehate Hain, Is it because you lost your childhood in a madrasa? It is actually your turn to go back to a proper school and get some real education. The sooner the better.

    [Reply]

  • jai vaidya

    It seems even peacenicks like Vinod Sharma have reached a dead end. The next two or three years will be a testing time for India as the Pakistani army after having eaten billions of dollars of aid and arms while surrepitiously supporting Taliban, is high on steroids. The Indian non-response to terrorism has emboldened the Pakistani army. Remember what that old rascal Sir Winston Churchill said about appeasement, “an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eathim last.”
    Our previous army chief, General Kapoor had stated publicly the army’s response would be the doctrine of “cold start.” When the army formulates such a policy, great thought is given to the details, Our current military leadership has to also openly tell the nation what the current doctrine is in the event of future Pakistani provocation.The Indian defence establishment has to be given some hand in the decision- making in the foreign pollicy issues regarding China and Pakistan.
    I think there is a consensus now that talking to the civilian leadership in Pakistan is a waste of time, and we don’t have the luxury of waiting for the next Punjabi strong man to arrive.
    So we have to first analyse who we are dealing with. We are dealing with the Pakistani army that is also a jihadist organisation.Their slogan is “jihad Fi Sabalilah”. Their officer corps is indoctrinaterd by a book written by Brigadier S.K. Malik with a foreward by General Zia al Haq, “Jihad. :The Quranic Concept of War” is a must-read book for Indians. The Western publishers of this book have added a” publisher’s preface. ”
    Publisher’s Preface “Dear Reader: We are pleased to offer this electronic version of General S.K. Malik’s book,The Quranic Concept of War, to the public. We are making this volume available because of its critical significance in the ideological foundations of the internationaljihadist
    movement and the unapologetic rationale if offers for the use of terrorism to
    accomplish political and religious ends. Not only does Malik’s book take a
    prominent place amongst contemporary interpretations of the Islamic doctrine of jihad, but its virtual inaccessibility to Western scholars and military analysts makes this electronic republication critically necessary”.
    The problem we face in dealing with the Pakistani Punjabi is his inability to accepyt his identityHe is a Punjabi who is now thinking of himself as an Arab. .

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Jai

    Waht a load of C R A P are you talking about. I am from Punjab and yes Punjab constitute majority of Pakistans population just like Hindu is majority in India. Now if I complain that how come hindus are majority in every sphere of life in india. You are will say Azhar you are talking nonsense. I am laughing at you when you say, “The problem we face in dealing with the Pakistani Punjabi is his inability to accepyt his identityHe is a Punjabi who is now thinking of himself as an Arab”. Are confused between Arab and Muslim identity, Yes we have our Muslim identity, we are proud of it and you Jai are nobody to tell us.

    I must you guys are losing your mind, is this what you guys are learning in your school. What a brain washed low lives you guys have become. By the way which school did you go to Jai?

    [Reply]

    jai vaidya Reply:

    “Punjabi who is now thinking of himself as an Arab”It seems has riled you. I meet Pakistanis almost every day. Some are my good friends. I have discussed these things with them. A lot of them seem to say or suggest that they are somehow not local to the subcontinent, but are actually descendants of Arabs, Turks, or Persians. A few of them have said they are from Yemen or Hajaz, adopting sirnames like Siddique and Farooqi who claim their status as Arabs. These Punjabis have beeen conditioned to believe that their culture, cuisine and language are inferior to the Arab. I’ve also noticed that non-Arab Muslims take to Arab culture the Arab, however takes nothing from non-Arab Muslim ’s culture. The Pakistani Punjabi denies his heritage as the custodian of Mohenjo Daro , but tries hard to be the custodian of Giza.The Janjua of Jhelum, who are the maain conscripts in the Punjabi army, have created a myth that they are actually an Arab tribe settledd in north Punjab. You can find Hindu Janjuas in New Delhi who wioll deny this ridiculous myth.

    Azhar , you are discussing apples and oranges. when you talk about Punjabis and Hindus. Punjabis are an ethnic group, Hindu is a religion. Please read Professsor K.K. Aziz’s book , THe Murder of History and Anwar Sheikh’s book , “Islam: The Arab Imperialism.”

    They are both Pakistanis, and also Punjabis.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Azhar,
    Glad to know you have a muslim identity and you are very proud of that. You also must be knowing, you have an ancestry of a great civilization, a democratic republic without the practice of slavery, which was much ahead of its time. You inherit a culture/place which gave the first university to the world much before Christ and Prophet came on Earth. Does these facts top up your muslim identity or your identity gets unaffected by where you have come from?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This is how hindu girls are kidnapped and converted in Azhar’s aka ravi’s pakistan-
    http://www.islam-watch.org/MarianaBaabar/HindusInPakistan.htm
    Sindh’s Stolen Brides
    On the other side of the Thar, Hindus, especially girls, are forced into Islam

    by Mariana Baabar

    http://www.outlookindia.com/

    16 January, 2006

    Rehan Khan

    Hindus In Pakistan

    Hindus constitute about 2.5 per cent, or 26 lakh, of Pakistan’s population.

    Though sprinkled all over Pakistan, 95 per cent of Hindus are in Sindh.

    Only Tharparkar district in Sindh has Hindus in majority: 51 per cent.

    Other districts with sizeable population: Mirpur Khas (41 per cent), Sanghar (35 per cent), Umerkot (43 per cent)

    Nearly 82 per cent of Pakistani Hindus are lower caste, most of them farm labourers

    Cities with some Hindu population: Karachi, Hyderabad, Jacobabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta.

    In Tharparkar, Hindus own land. Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal are the Hindus in the Pakistan National Assembly. ***

    Let me confess at the outset: I’m travelling in interior Sindh to verify specifically the reported widespread menace of abduction of Hindu girls, their forcible conversion to Islam and betrothal to Muslim men. My first port of call is the district court of Mirpur Khas. I promptly mingle among the crowd waiting for the court’s decision on a kidnap-and-conversion case. Different voices narrate contradictory stories. I am befuddled for the moment.

    Soon, a frisson of excitement sweeps through the throng, as a police van drives through the gate. Inside it is Mariam. She’s 13 years old-and married! Mariam was Mashu, and Hindu, till the night of December 22, 2005. I pick my way through the jostling crowd. Mariam is in a red burqa, her gold nose ring sparkles. She tells me, “I’m happy. I don’t want to return to my parents or brother.” What’s the fuss about, I wonder.

    It’s quite another story under the pipal tree of the court compound. Huddled under it are the villagers of Jhaluree, 20 km from Mirpur Khas. Among them is Mashu’s father, Malo Sanafravo. He says that at 11 pm, December 22, four armed men barged into their room. One of them was Malo’s neighbour, Akbar. They picked up Mashu, bundled her into the waiting car. “She was taken to Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi’s village in Somarho tehsil.” There Mashu became Mariam and was married to Akbar.

    Not true, insists husband Akbar. “Mariam has been always in my heart,” he gushes, saying, at 11 pm, December 22, it was she who had come over to his house. But it’s true that the Pir converted her and married them-it was his idea that they issue statements in the court. “Mariam was sent to Darul Aman in Hyderabad, in judicial custody,” Akbar declares.

    A 13-year-old choosing to convert and marry? A 13-year-old testifying in the court, without her family by her side? Suspicious, I walk over to the SHO, caught in the middle of a heated exchange between two groups. Someone suggests he should allow the girl to meet her relatives. Before the conversion yes, not now. She has now become Muslim, says the SHO. He argues, “There’s a huge crowd here. If Mariam breaks down after seeing her father, there will be a communal riot here in the compound.”

    A little later, there are celebrations as the word spreads: the court has allowed the couple to live together. Standing next to me is Kanjee Rano Bheel. He works for an NGO in the education sector; volunteers for the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) as well. “In just two hours Mashu was converted and married,” Kanjee says incredulously. Disappointment and helpless rage fleet across his face. “In Darul Aman the girls are kept away from parents and pressured into issuing statements favourable to the abductors. They tame stubborn girls through death threats.”

    So, was Mashu abducted and forcibly converted?

    In Mirpur Khas, truth resembles the mirage of the surrounding Thar desert, teasing and tormenting me as I drive from Karachi into interior Sindh.

    It tests your credulity, it challenges your journalistic skills. Wherever I go, and whoever I meet, in disconsolate voices the Hindus talk about ‘missing girls’; their stories resemble Mashu’s-the theme of abduction, conversion, often followed by marriage, is common to most narrations. The girls then appear in courts to issue statements declaring their conversion was voluntary. All links to the natal family and the community are severed; they are lost to the family forever. On January 4, 2005, Marvi, 18, and Hemi, 16, were kidnapped from Kunri village in Umerkot district; three months later, on March 3, 14-year-old Raji was abducted from Aslam Town Jhuddo, Mirpur Khas.

    So, was Mashu abducted and converted? In Mirpur Khas, the truth is like the mirage of the Thar desert.

    The script in their cases was similar to Mashu’s. “Only 10 per cent of all conversions involving girls are voluntary; because of romance,” says Kanjee.

    Ten per cent of what? No official figures are available. The DIG in Mirpur Khas, Saleemullah, says,

    “If there’s need I’ll collect these figures. Minorities are the safest in Pakistan.”

    Members of the Hindu Bheel community show photos of girls who they say have been kidnapped and converted

    Saleemullah, perhaps, should tap the HRCP for statistics. Its director in Lahore, I.A. Rehman, is an honourable man. Rehman told Outlook that the HRCP has, between Jan 2000 to Dec 2005, documented 50 cases involving conversion of Hindu girls to Islam. Its investigations too endorse what I had found in interior Sindh.

    In many cases where it was claimed the girls had eloped with their Muslim partners, the HRCP found that most were, in fact, abducted, forcibly married to Muslim men or sold to them. There have been cases of Hindu girls, usually from economically better off families, eloping with their Muslim boyfriends. Rehman says in most cases

    “These Hindu women are mistreated, their husbands do nothing but see TV,” says the Pir.

    such marriages didn’t last long. With links to their families cut off, the girls were subsequently forced to marry another Muslim or sucked into marriage rackets.

    Nuzzhat Shirin, who works for the Lahore-based ngp Aurat Foundation, understands why the girls don’t reveal their plight at the time they are presented in court. “When a Hindu is forced to become Muslim, such a ruckus is made that if the young kidnapped girl appears in court, the fanatics yell, scream, throw rose petals in the air and follow the youth into the building so that she’s intimidated and can’t speak,” Shirin explains. Social stigma arising from the loss of virginity, and the consequent difficulty of finding a groom, prompt these women to accept their misfortune-and hope for the best.

    Fifty incidents in five years represents just a percentage of the total number of cases, says Kanjee, pointing out that a majority of such crimes go unreported. “There have been 50 such incidents last year,” insists Krishen Bheel, who is a Hindu member of the National Assembly (MNA), the Pakistani equivalent of the Lok Sabha. He begins to rattle out the cases he remembers: two months back Sapna was kidnapped and converted in upper Sindh; seven months earlier it was 17-year-old Lakshmi in Nawkot, and then…. “The trend is increasing,” he says. “If these conversions are voluntary, then how come boys rarely ever convert?”

    Hindu women in Somarho who have been converted to Islam by Pir Ayub Jan Sirhandi

    Only once did the popular resentment against abduction spill out in the streets of Mirpur Khas. It was in the ’80s: a girl named Sita had been kidnapped. Some 70,000 Hindus turned up to protest the kidnapping. The police opened fire, killing several. “Sita was never returned,” Krishen laments. “She had even told Justice Dhorab Patel, who later joined the HRCP, that she had been forcibly converted.

    We have now stopped agitating.”

    Instead, the Hindus take the support of civil rights groups and the media to publicise abduction cases, hoping public scrutiny would goad the state into action. On Dec 30, the day after the Mariam case was disposed, the Supreme Court took cognisance of the complaint Qosheela’s parents from Ghotki, Sindh, had filed. They claimed their 13-year-old girl had been kidnapped, converted, given the name of Hajra and married to a Muslim man. The girl, as in most other cases, had said she had converted of her own free will. A three-member bench, headed by Chief Justice Iftiqar Muhammad Chaudhry, ordered the medical examination of the girl to determine whether she had attained puberty (Islam permits marriage at that age).

    “A majority of such abductions and conversions go unreported,” says Kanjee Bheel, of the HRCP.

    Should it be proved otherwise, the husband could be tried for rape.

    Even cities are not immune to the menace. Last year, Sammo Amra and Champa in Karachi received a letter from their three missing daughters-Reena (21), Reema (17) and Usha (19)-informing that they had converted to Islam and were ordained

    under the dictates of their new religion not to live with infidels, including their Hindu parents. The letter bore the address of Madrassa Taleemul Islam, Karachi. It prompted Supreme Court Bar Association president Malik Mohammad Qayyum to petition the Supreme Court in the first week of December. He accused the religious seminary’s administrator of using coercive methods to convert the three girls. On December 16, the court ordered the police to shift the girls to the Edhi Welfare Centre and provide protection to them until the time it was ascertained they had been indeed compelled to convert to Islam.

    Sensitive Muslim citizens feel the way to counter the menace is to reinterpret and widen the scope of law.

    Major (retd) Kamran Shafi, an absentee landlord from Sindh, cites the case of 17-year-old Kochlia, who was kidnapped and gangraped in Jacobabad, Sindh, in Sept 2005. Four men were arrested for the crime. They were subsequently released because Kochlia stated in the court she had converted and was married

    Rehana was earlier Nabee. She converted three years ago after her husband died.

    to one of them. Shafi asks, “Isn’t something very, very wrong here? Suppose the poor girl was forced into changing her religion and marrying one of the assailants so that they get off the hook? Can’t the state prosecute the four on its own, for their original crime of rape?”

    The three Hindu MNAs-Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal-raised the Kochlia case in the National Assembly. They claimed Kochlia’s statement was not tenable as under the local Hindu custom and law a girl can’t marry of her own will until the age of 20. Since Kochlia is a minor, her abductors should be tried for rape. Such an interpretation of existing laws could provide ample relief to Hindus.

    Till then, though, the fear of kidnap stalks the Hindus of Pakistan. Krishen Bheel says Hindu girls are scared to go out; he has enrolled his own children into a Christian school. He points to Mirpur Khas’ strange predicament: there’s freedom to worship, there are 10 temples which bustle through the day with devotees; and yet Hindu girls here are kidnapped and converted-and the community humiliated.

    Perhaps these abductions are part of the general scenario of crime against women in rural Pakistan (see box). Perhaps they are converted and married to criminals to enable the latter to escape the dragnet of the law. Yet, such arguments don’t comfort the Hindus. Sat Ram, of Shadi Bali village near Mirpur Khas, says Hindu girls are deprived of education because their parents are apprehensive of sending them to schools located at a distance. “They receive education only till the primary level. It isn’t safe to send them to school after that.”

    But the plight of Hindu women can’t be seen just through the prism of gender discrimination rampant in rural Sindh.

    Reena Gul, of Sattar Nagar village, Mirpur Khas, says the boys too are converted but their numbers are very few. The community here feels it is the Islamist’s agenda to drive out non-Muslims from Pakistan. In fact, Krishen told the National Assembly that even Hindu businessmen are being kidnapped in Sindh for ransom. He said on the floor of the House, “Several religious parties are reportedly behind the move to convince the people that it is their responsibility to get rid of infidels from Pakistan, (that) taking ransom from non-Muslims is not a sin.”

    I now set out to meet Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi, whose name surfaces repeatedly in conversion stories.

    Ruksana was Chotee. Poverty and a drug abuser husband made her convert to Islam.

    The drive from Mirpur Khas to Sarhandi village, Somarho tehsil, is through a picturesque landscape. Peacocks dance in the field and gypsies pitch their tents for the night. Even the Pir appears tranquil, his white flowing beard and winsome disposition camouflaging his mission.

    Yet, when he begins to talk, he conceals nothing. Yes, the Pir declares, he has been converting the Hindus for the last 30 years. Perhaps his claims of converting a 1,000 families a year is a boast. “There’s a surah in the Quran which speaks specifically about conversion, especially about conversion of women,” he says to justify his mission. “Recently, three Hindu girls were brought to me. I named them Benazir, Sanam and Nusrat,” he reveals, with the righteous air of someone who had bestowed a favour. “These Hindu women are mistreated by their husbands who do nothing but watch TV.”

    The Pir rubbishes the allegation that he converts abducted Hindu girls. The unwilling are sent back. Yet, he adds in the same breath, “In many cases Hindu girls are kidnapped and kept as keeps. But these keeps are not converted. But believe me, they are very happy.”

    I express the desire to meet the women whom he had converted and found sanctuary with him. The Pir agrees, even allows us to photograph them, contrary to the local tradition. Into the room, the women walk. Rehana, 50, was earlier Nabee; she converted three years ago, after the death of her husband. “I had no one to turn to. If we do not convert we would not be helped by this family.” It was the same reason for 35-year-old Mariam, who came here seven years back. “Under the Pir’s protection, I earn at least Rs 200 a month.” Ruksana was earlier Chotee, and hails from Umerkot. Extreme poverty and a drug-addict husband persuaded her to take the extreme step. “I brought my four kids as well,” she declares.

    As I talk to these women, I realise most of them are widows or wallowing in poverty. I mention this to the Pir. He says, “The government is responsible for all Hindus and non-Hindus. When the government doesn’t help them, they come to us.”

    Forced or economically enticed, the Hindu converts do not symbolise Islam’s appeal. Rather they represent the state’s failure to provide succour to the poor and protect their religious rights. Perhaps it’s also symptomatic of the sickness afflicting the Pakistani state. As they say, the condition of the minorities is an indicator of a nation’s health.

    By Mariana Baabar in interior Sindh with Amir Mir in Lahore

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Sindh’s Stolen Brides
    On the other side of the Thar, Hindus, especially girls, are forced into Islam

    by Mariana Baabar

    http://www.outlookindia.com/

    16 January, 2006

    Rehan Khan

    Hindus In Pakistan

    Hindus constitute about 2.5 per cent, or 26 lakh, of Pakistan’s population.

    Though sprinkled all over Pakistan, 95 per cent of Hindus are in Sindh.

    Only Tharparkar district in Sindh has Hindus in majority: 51 per cent.

    Other districts with sizeable population: Mirpur Khas (41 per cent), Sanghar (35 per cent), Umerkot (43 per cent)

    Nearly 82 per cent of Pakistani Hindus are lower caste, most of them farm labourers

    Cities with some Hindu population: Karachi, Hyderabad, Jacobabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta.

    In Tharparkar, Hindus own land. Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal are the Hindus in the Pakistan National Assembly. ***

    Let me confess at the outset: I’m travelling in interior Sindh to verify specifically the reported widespread menace of abduction of Hindu girls, their forcible conversion to Islam and betrothal to Muslim men. My first port of call is the district court of Mirpur Khas. I promptly mingle among the crowd waiting for the court’s decision on a kidnap-and-conversion case. Different voices narrate contradictory stories. I am befuddled for the moment.

    Soon, a frisson of excitement sweeps through the throng, as a police van drives through the gate. Inside it is Mariam. She’s 13 years old-and married! Mariam was Mashu, and Hindu, till the night of December 22, 2005. I pick my way through the jostling crowd. Mariam is in a red burqa, her gold nose ring sparkles. She tells me, “I’m happy. I don’t want to return to my parents or brother.” What’s the fuss about, I wonder.

    It’s quite another story under the pipal tree of the court compound. Huddled under it are the villagers of Jhaluree, 20 km from Mirpur Khas. Among them is Mashu’s father, Malo Sanafravo. He says that at 11 pm, December 22, four armed men barged into their room. One of them was Malo’s neighbour, Akbar. They picked up Mashu, bundled her into the waiting car. “She was taken to Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi’s village in Somarho tehsil.” There Mashu became Mariam and was married to Akbar.

    Not true, insists husband Akbar. “Mariam has been always in my heart,” he gushes, saying, at 11 pm, December 22, it was she who had come over to his house. But it’s true that the Pir converted her and married them-it was his idea that they issue statements in the court. “Mariam was sent to Darul Aman in Hyderabad, in judicial custody,” Akbar declares.

    A 13-year-old choosing to convert and marry? A 13-year-old testifying in the court, without her family by her side? Suspicious, I walk over to the SHO, caught in the middle of a heated exchange between two groups. Someone suggests he should allow the girl to meet her relatives. Before the conversion yes, not now. She has now become Muslim, says the SHO. He argues, “There’s a huge crowd here. If Mariam breaks down after seeing her father, there will be a communal riot here in the compound.”

    A little later, there are celebrations as the word spreads: the court has allowed the couple to live together. Standing next to me is Kanjee Rano Bheel. He works for an NGO in the education sector; volunteers for the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) as well. “In just two hours Mashu was converted and married,” Kanjee says incredulously. Disappointment and helpless rage fleet across his face. “In Darul Aman the girls are kept away from parents and pressured into issuing statements favourable to the abductors. They tame stubborn girls through death threats.”

    So, was Mashu abducted and forcibly converted?

    In Mirpur Khas, truth resembles the mirage of the surrounding Thar desert, teasing and tormenting me as I drive from Karachi into interior Sindh.

    It tests your credulity, it challenges your journalistic skills. Wherever I go, and whoever I meet, in disconsolate voices the Hindus talk about ‘missing girls’; their stories resemble Mashu’s-the theme of abduction, conversion, often followed by marriage, is common to most narrations. The girls then appear in courts to issue statements declaring their conversion was voluntary. All links to the natal family and the community are severed; they are lost to the family forever. On January 4, 2005, Marvi, 18, and Hemi, 16, were kidnapped from Kunri village in Umerkot district; three months later, on March 3, 14-year-old Raji was abducted from Aslam Town Jhuddo, Mirpur Khas.

    So, was Mashu abducted and converted? In Mirpur Khas, the truth is like the mirage of the Thar desert.

    The script in their cases was similar to Mashu’s. “Only 10 per cent of all conversions involving girls are voluntary; because of romance,” says Kanjee.

    Ten per cent of what? No official figures are available. The DIG in Mirpur Khas, Saleemullah, says,

    “If there’s need I’ll collect these figures. Minorities are the safest in Pakistan.”

    Members of the Hindu Bheel community show photos of girls who they say have been kidnapped and converted

    Saleemullah, perhaps, should tap the HRCP for statistics. Its director in Lahore, I.A. Rehman, is an honourable man. Rehman told Outlook that the HRCP has, between Jan 2000 to Dec 2005, documented 50 cases involving conversion of Hindu girls to Islam. Its investigations too endorse what I had found in interior Sindh.

    In many cases where it was claimed the girls had eloped with their Muslim partners, the HRCP found that most were, in fact, abducted, forcibly married to Muslim men or sold to them. There have been cases of Hindu girls, usually from economically better off families, eloping with their Muslim boyfriends. Rehman says in most cases

    “These Hindu women are mistreated, their husbands do nothing but see TV,” says the Pir.

    such marriages didn’t last long. With links to their families cut off, the girls were subsequently forced to marry another Muslim or sucked into marriage rackets.

    Nuzzhat Shirin, who works for the Lahore-based ngp Aurat Foundation, understands why the girls don’t reveal their plight at the time they are presented in court. “When a Hindu is forced to become Muslim, such a ruckus is made that if the young kidnapped girl appears in court, the fanatics yell, scream, throw rose petals in the air and follow the youth into the building so that she’s intimidated and can’t speak,” Shirin explains. Social stigma arising from the loss of virginity, and the consequent difficulty of finding a groom, prompt these women to accept their misfortune-and hope for the best.

    Fifty incidents in five years represents just a percentage of the total number of cases, says Kanjee, pointing out that a majority of such crimes go unreported. “There have been 50 such incidents last year,” insists Krishen Bheel, who is a Hindu member of the National Assembly (MNA), the Pakistani equivalent of the Lok Sabha. He begins to rattle out the cases he remembers: two months back Sapna was kidnapped and converted in upper Sindh; seven months earlier it was 17-year-old Lakshmi in Nawkot, and then…. “The trend is increasing,” he says. “If these conversions are voluntary, then how come boys rarely ever convert?”

    Hindu women in Somarho who have been converted to Islam by Pir Ayub Jan Sirhandi

    Only once did the popular resentment against abduction spill out in the streets of Mirpur Khas. It was in the ’80s: a girl named Sita had been kidnapped. Some 70,000 Hindus turned up to protest the kidnapping. The police opened fire, killing several. “Sita was never returned,” Krishen laments. “She had even told Justice Dhorab Patel, who later joined the HRCP, that she had been forcibly converted.

    We have now stopped agitating.”

    Instead, the Hindus take the support of civil rights groups and the media to publicise abduction cases, hoping public scrutiny would goad the state into action. On Dec 30, the day after the Mariam case was disposed, the Supreme Court took cognisance of the complaint Qosheela’s parents from Ghotki, Sindh, had filed. They claimed their 13-year-old girl had been kidnapped, converted, given the name of Hajra and married to a Muslim man. The girl, as in most other cases, had said she had converted of her own free will. A three-member bench, headed by Chief Justice Iftiqar Muhammad Chaudhry, ordered the medical examination of the girl to determine whether she had attained puberty (Islam permits marriage at that age).

    “A majority of such abductions and conversions go unreported,” says Kanjee Bheel, of the HRCP.

    Should it be proved otherwise, the husband could be tried for rape.

    Even cities are not immune to the menace. Last year, Sammo Amra and Champa in Karachi received a letter from their three missing daughters-Reena (21), Reema (17) and Usha (19)-informing that they had converted to Islam and were ordained

    under the dictates of their new religion not to live with infidels, including their Hindu parents. The letter bore the address of Madrassa Taleemul Islam, Karachi. It prompted Supreme Court Bar Association president Malik Mohammad Qayyum to petition the Supreme Court in the first week of December. He accused the religious seminary’s administrator of using coercive methods to convert the three girls. On December 16, the court ordered the police to shift the girls to the Edhi Welfare Centre and provide protection to them until the time it was ascertained they had been indeed compelled to convert to Islam.

    Sensitive Muslim citizens feel the way to counter the menace is to reinterpret and widen the scope of law.

    Major (retd) Kamran Shafi, an absentee landlord from Sindh, cites the case of 17-year-old Kochlia, who was kidnapped and gangraped in Jacobabad, Sindh, in Sept 2005. Four men were arrested for the crime. They were subsequently released because Kochlia stated in the court she had converted and was married

    Rehana was earlier Nabee. She converted three years ago after her husband died.

    to one of them. Shafi asks, “Isn’t something very, very wrong here? Suppose the poor girl was forced into changing her religion and marrying one of the assailants so that they get off the hook? Can’t the state prosecute the four on its own, for their original crime of rape?”

    The three Hindu MNAs-Krishen Bheel, Gyan Chand and Ramesh Lal-raised the Kochlia case in the National Assembly. They claimed Kochlia’s statement was not tenable as under the local Hindu custom and law a girl can’t marry of her own will until the age of 20. Since Kochlia is a minor, her abductors should be tried for rape. Such an interpretation of existing laws could provide ample relief to Hindus.

    Till then, though, the fear of kidnap stalks the Hindus of Pakistan. Krishen Bheel says Hindu girls are scared to go out; he has enrolled his own children into a Christian school. He points to Mirpur Khas’ strange predicament: there’s freedom to worship, there are 10 temples which bustle through the day with devotees; and yet Hindu girls here are kidnapped and converted-and the community humiliated.

    Perhaps these abductions are part of the general scenario of crime against women in rural Pakistan (see box). Perhaps they are converted and married to criminals to enable the latter to escape the dragnet of the law. Yet, such arguments don’t comfort the Hindus. Sat Ram, of Shadi Bali village near Mirpur Khas, says Hindu girls are deprived of education because their parents are apprehensive of sending them to schools located at a distance. “They receive education only till the primary level. It isn’t safe to send them to school after that.”

    But the plight of Hindu women can’t be seen just through the prism of gender discrimination rampant in rural Sindh.

    Reena Gul, of Sattar Nagar village, Mirpur Khas, says the boys too are converted but their numbers are very few. The community here feels it is the Islamist’s agenda to drive out non-Muslims from Pakistan. In fact, Krishen told the National Assembly that even Hindu businessmen are being kidnapped in Sindh for ransom. He said on the floor of the House, “Several religious parties are reportedly behind the move to convince the people that it is their responsibility to get rid of infidels from Pakistan, (that) taking ransom from non-Muslims is not a sin.”

    I now set out to meet Pir Ayub Jan Sarhandi, whose name surfaces repeatedly in conversion stories.

    Ruksana was Chotee. Poverty and a drug abuser husband made her convert to Islam.

    The drive from Mirpur Khas to Sarhandi village, Somarho tehsil, is through a picturesque landscape. Peacocks dance in the field and gypsies pitch their tents for the night. Even the Pir appears tranquil, his white flowing beard and winsome disposition camouflaging his mission.

    Yet, when he begins to talk, he conceals nothing. Yes, the Pir declares, he has been converting the Hindus for the last 30 years. Perhaps his claims of converting a 1,000 families a year is a boast. “There’s a surah in the Quran which speaks specifically about conversion, especially about conversion of women,” he says to justify his mission. “Recently, three Hindu girls were brought to me. I named them Benazir, Sanam and Nusrat,” he reveals, with the righteous air of someone who had bestowed a favour. “These Hindu women are mistreated by their husbands who do nothing but watch TV.”

    The Pir rubbishes the allegation that he converts abducted Hindu girls. The unwilling are sent back. Yet, he adds in the same breath, “In many cases Hindu girls are kidnapped and kept as keeps. But these keeps are not converted. But believe me, they are very happy.”

    I express the desire to meet the women whom he had converted and found sanctuary with him. The Pir agrees, even allows us to photograph them, contrary to the local tradition. Into the room, the women walk. Rehana, 50, was earlier Nabee; she converted three years ago, after the death of her husband. “I had no one to turn to. If we do not convert we would not be helped by this family.” It was the same reason for 35-year-old Mariam, who came here seven years back. “Under the Pir’s protection, I earn at least Rs 200 a month.” Ruksana was earlier Chotee, and hails from Umerkot. Extreme poverty and a drug-addict husband persuaded her to take the extreme step. “I brought my four kids as well,” she declares.

    As I talk to these women, I realise most of them are widows or wallowing in poverty. I mention this to the Pir. He says, “The government is responsible for all Hindus and non-Hindus. When the government doesn’t help them, they come to us.”

    Forced or economically enticed, the Hindu converts do not symbolise Islam’s appeal. Rather they represent the state’s failure to provide succour to the poor and protect their religious rights. Perhaps it’s also symptomatic of the sickness afflicting the Pakistani state. As they say, the condition of the minorities is an indicator of a nation’s health.

    By Mariana Baabar in interior Sindh with Amir Mir in Lahore

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    @Vinodji,

    I think you should take these cases in Pakistan to the minoriteis commission of India of which you are a member. You can make a represntation to the concerned authorities in Pakistan, though I doub anything will come out of this.

    But the voice has to be amplified.

    Similarly whenever there is a dialogue on the track 2, don’t you think these things need to be higlighted to the Pakistanis?

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    @Vijay Kumar
    Yes indeed the matter can be taken up on track II and through our Pakistani journalist friends with the government there. In fact, the author of the article, Mariana Babbar, is a very dear friend who has been working with me on Track II under the banner of South Asia Free Media Association.
    About the minority panel, I am not sure . Its jurisdiction is limited to India.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vinodji,
    Please do try to find out what happened to family of Manu Bheel. That poor man has been looking for his family for past 3-4 years. You could use your contacts in pakistan and get the real picture.
    The hindu minority is getting decimated in pakistan whereas in India, muslims are being given preferential treatment. Why don’t journalist like you demand that pakistan provide equal right to its minorities?

  • Azhar Hussain

    Printable version

    Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?
    By Soutik Biswas
    BBC News

    Muslims make up India’s largest religious minority

    Enlarge Image

    As historians tell it, during India’s first election in 1952, Jawaharlal Nehru was already worrying about the feeble representation of Muslims in the country’s positions of authority.
    Many more Muslims had stayed back in India than the millions who migrated to newly-born Pakistan after the partition just five years before.

    India’s first prime minister’s concerns about the country’s second largest religious group and the largest religious minority were eminently justified.

    See a map of the area
    “There were hardly any Muslims left in the defence service, and not many in the secretariat,” says historian Ramachandra Guha.

    Little change

    Next year, in 1953, a group of intellectuals met to discuss forming a political party for the Muslims and spoke about the low representation of Muslims in political positions and bureaucracy.

    More than half century later, on India’s 60th anniversary of independence, very little has changed.

    (Indian Muslims) carry a double burden of being labelled as ‘anti-national’ and as being ‘appeased’ at the same time

    Staying behind in India
    Today, at over 138 million, Muslims constitute over 13% of India ’s billion-strong population, and in sheer numbers are exceeded only by Indonesia’s and Pakistan’s Muslim community.

    The country has had three Muslim presidents – a largely ceremonial role. Bollywood and cricket, two secular pan-Indian obsessions, continue to have their fair share of Muslim stars – the ruling heroes in Mumbai films are Shah Rukh, Aamir and Salman Khan, and the star of India’s current English cricket tour is pace bowler Zaheer Khan. Not long ago, the national team was led by the stylish Mohammed Azharuddin.

    That’s where the good news essentially ends.

    Muslims are a ‘vulnerable’ community
    Muslims comprise only 5% of employees in India’s big government, a recent study found. The figure for Indian Railways, the country’s biggest employer, is only 4.5%.
    The community continues to have a paltry representation in the bureaucracy and police – 3% in the powerful Indian Civil Service, 1.8% in foreign service and only 4% in the Indian Police Service. And Muslims account for only 7.8% of the people working in the judiciary.

    Indian Muslims are also largely illiterate and poor.

    At just under 60%, the community’s literacy rate is lower than the national average of 65%. Only half of Muslim women can read and write. As many as a quarter of Muslim children in the age-group 6-14 have either never attended school or dropped out.

    They are also poor – 31% of Muslims are below the country’s poverty line, just a notch above the lowest castes and tribes who remain the poorest of the poor.

    Identity card

    To add to the community’s woes are myriad problems relating to, as one expert says, “identity, security and equity”.

    “They carry a double burden of being labelled as ‘anti-national’ and as being ‘appeased’ at the same time,” says a recent report on the state of Indian Muslims.

    Historians say it is ironic that many Indians bought the Hindu nationalist bogey of ‘Muslim appeasement’ when it had not translated into any major socio-economic gain for the community.

    So why has the lot of Indian Muslims remained miserable after six decades of independence?

    Half of Muslim women in India cannot read or write
    For one, it is the sheer apathy and ineptitude of the Indian state which has failed to provide equality of opportunity in health, education and employment.
    This has hurt the poor – including the Muslim poor who comprise the majority of the community – most.

    There is also the relatively recent trend of political bias against the community when Hindu nationalist governments have ruled in Delhi and the states.

    Also, the lack of credible middle class leadership among the Muslims has hobbled the community’s vision and progress.

    Consequently, rabble rousers claiming to represent the community have thrust themselves to the fore.

    To be true, mass migration during partition robbed the community of potential leaders – most Muslim civil servants, teachers, doctors and professionals crossed over.

    But the failure to throw up credible leaders has meant low community participation in the political processes and government – of the 543 MPs in India’s lower house of parliament, only 36 are Muslims.

    Also, as Ramachandra Guha says, the “vicissitudes of India-Pakistan relations and Pakistan’s treatment of its minorities” ensured that Muslims remained a “vulnerable” community.

    Regional disparities

    The plight of Indian Muslims also has a lot to do with the appalling quality of governance, unequal social order and lack of equality of opportunity in northern India where most of the community lives.

    Populous Uttar Pradesh is home to nearly a fifth of Muslims (31 million) living in India, while Bihar has more than 10 million community members.

    Shah Rukh Khan is the biggest Bollywood star
    “Southern India is a different picture. Larger cultural and social movements have made education more accessible and self employment more lucrative benefiting a large number of Muslims,” says historian Mahesh Rangarajan.
    In Andhra Pradesh state, for example, 68% of Muslims are literate, higher than the state and national average. School enrolment rates for Muslim children are above 90% in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

    Mahesh Rangarajan says poverty and “absence of ameliorative policies” has hurt India’s Muslims most.

    If India was to be “a secular, stable and strong state,” Nehru once said, “then our first consideration must be to give absolute fair play to our minority”.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Yes, there is a state failure regarding minorities. But the state has failed “uniformly” (or “secular”) with regards to underdevelopment and corruption. For the lack of growth in one specific community (here Muslims) I would refer to other points of the article.

    “The lack of credible middle class leadership among the Muslims has hobbled the community’s vision and progress…
    To be true, mass migration during partition robbed the community of potential leaders – most Muslim civil servants, teachers, doctors and professionals crossed over. the failure to throw up credible leaders has meant low community participation in the political processes and and government….”

    (Most of the times, the elected muslim MPS are from Bihar, UP. Many a times, the MPs from these states (hindus included) are corrupt and goons. Nobody has expectation of community development from these MPS. This finally results in ..)

    “Indian Muslims are largely illiterate and poor. Only half of Muslim women can read and write. As many as a quarter of Muslim children in the age-group 6-14 have either never attended school or dropped out. ”

    (These are exactly the issues I expected the community leaders to address (state is corrupt anyway). But the community leaders shifted their focus from the above things to either an unprayed mosque or sharia law for Muslims etc. Muslim community in India have not totally gone bankrupt during partition (as indicated in article). There have been middle class community left behind here as well (may not be as big as in Pakistan). But the thing is, how did
    they give away the leadership of the community to religious leaders who were far less educated and inferiors? The bigger number of middle class in Pakistan, has not reduced the influence of religious leaders (in fact, it is more than in India). It is this unwillingness from Muslim middle class to take the political leadership (in both countries), which has let Madrassa (parallel education) culture to boom.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Yes, Azhar;
    I was wondering that how come you are using refined language, you do not appear angry either.Then I realized you are quoting others. All the quotes are from so CALLED HINDUS, ADVOCATING CAUSE OF MUSLIMS? NEVER SEEN ANY SUCH THING FROM PAKISTANI INTELLECTUALS, NOT EVEN FROM PARACHA? So Nehru was worried about Muslims? never heard any Pakistani leader, including Jinnah, worrying about remaining hindus?. Of course, Military officers and your infamous babudom had left for greener pastures of Pakistan and there was a poor representation of muslim community in these two services. How come Muslim community is thriving in India, in numbers as given by you, while every Muslim country has decimated its minorities? I will come to the people, muslims, who are doing excellent, I can not believe that you are so much blind that can not see obvious. yes, as Vinay has said, that this lack of education is state failure, but it is not community specific, it is all around. Muslims have not been denied education, infact they have more than two universities and innumerable colleges, specifically for muslims. Can you quote any Hindu University in Pakistan? It is Muslim’ reluctance to educate their womenfolk and resistance to modern education, that is responsible for their backwardness. In England, where every child has access to education, Pakistanis are most backwards in education and Jobs. Youe statistics tell the story about poor representation of Muslims in elite services, because, they are not granted by some power, they have to be earned, by labour and education, which Muslims shun. So what you are peeved at? Can you compare your minorities with indian minorities, do you want me to give you a list of muslims doing fantastic in this secular country? but you will not believe. you want to believe only things which your biased mind has been tutored.
    I hope you will reply to me and engage in a fruitful discussion. Or I should see you as a person who only relishes abuses and vulgar language. This forum is for some intelligent discussions and exchange of ideas and not for mud slinging.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Pankaj,
    Please give a word of encouragement to him. :-) He may be quoting others. Butt at least as a change, he has not quoted from his favorite islamic-hatred-sites, (which of course he has gone to do again with his later posts). If he writes anything sensible, it can lead to exchange of dialogues/ideas. His ranting for no reason and mirror business will only put off sensible bloggers and make them skip his post, leaving it for our Sunny deols to fight.

    [Reply]

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Azhar Hussain,

    Mahesh Rangarajan and Ramchandra Guha are what are generally known as “JNU historians” or sarkari historians. mahesh is anything but a historian. He is a NDTV con-artist, mouthing fake expertise on national issues.

    But, wht both these “fake historians” have failed to say is:

    It is not the state (read the Hindu majority) that is responsible for the plight of the biggest minority in the world.

    Before partition they followed narrow minded communalists like Jinnah and totally ostracised leaders like Azaad. Post partition, they followed “leaders” like Syed Shahabuddin and Abdullah Bukhari, instead of heroes like Abdul Kalam and Azim Premji. Nationalist leaders like Arif Mohammed Khan were kicked out of main stream politics.

    The community blindly followed the congress party and became its vote bank. Even today, NOT A SINGLE CRITICAL ANALYSIS HAS BEEN CARRIED OUT TO EVALUATE THE DAMAGE DONE BY THE CONGRESS PARTY’S VOTE BANK POLITICS.

    It is, contrary to what Mahesh Rngarajan, the fake historian, says, not much diffeent for Muslims in the south.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain
  • Azhar Hussain
  • Azhar Hussain
  • rajiv

    Commonwealth Games. : 2010
    Medal Count
    India : 101
    Pakistan : 005

    There were no medals for arguing Pakistan is not a criminal entity.

    The small state of Haryana in ndia, wth 2% of India’spopulation, won about 20 medals , compared to Pakistan’s 5.

    Now India is not a sporting country and has a long way to go to catch up with te best in the world ,
    However the graph is ascendent with India for the 1st time wnning more than 100 medals and coming 2nd in the tournament,
    but Pakistan’s conduct and performance , is a reflection of what the rulers, its great army/isi have reduced Pak too.

    The difference is too glaring and abject.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    So now over to sports….Did you video…..I bet you did that’s why you changed the subject

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Rajiv

    Watch the video’s over and over again, and write summary to what you saw.

    [Reply]

    jai vaidya Reply:

    Azhar,
    I usually shave at 8A.M. Can you please come with that handy mirror you carry at all times? For the sake of peace of course.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Azhar,
    I watched both the videos by your insistence. First about a private society refusing to share space with Muslims. It is unfortunate. But it is not full side of the story. Public laws can’t be applied to private owned properties. (I have the right to decide, whom I want to rent, whether I should let my son in my home or not. State cann’t interfere here). There are many muslim people who do own posh properties in the locations which is mentioned. Salman Khan straight away rejected these “secular muslim” claims.

    Second, about Kashmiri struggle. Yes, I saw an agitation and allegation on police. I would agree, it (Indian side) was not totally democratic. But I didn’t witness any brutality. Later, whatever the white gentleman said “82 year old woman getting raped by 10 police”, I didn’t find any authentification to believe. I just felt it was a video made for provocation.

    If you want, you also can have a look at this.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&hl=en&v=hl6nOV7iYTs&gl=US
    No provocations. Simple images.

    You felt sad, when a private society refused to share its place with a community. What about a “whole state” refusing to share space with a community (just 4 lakhs).

    [Reply]

    rajiv Reply:

    @Azhar,
    I do not read or watch any link posted by those tha defend the most criminal entity on earth called Pak ISI/Army.

    The other thing is, while India is not perfect, India even when wrong is 1000 times better than the most demented and depraved state entity in the world as represented by the rulers of Pakistan.

    Everyone knows that, except some ISI/Madrassa indoctrinated idiots.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    No rajiv read and watch, maybe that may clear some fog in your head

    [Reply]

  • Ankit

    Just the other day, this journalist raked up shivani murder case when a discussion on CWG scandal was taking place. He actually just dismissed everything that the journalists have written about CWG corruption over the last few months and started berating people who are trying to take this issue to public. If he had his way, I have no doubt that he would even deny that a bridge collapsed in front of everyone’s eyes!

    If you want to see one instance of someone selling his soul for a post, Mr. Sharma is exhibit A. One cannot even ask this person for some shame because there is no way in hell that he has any left.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @Azhar,

    Two blogs back, i thought I could open a communication channel with you. But, you ended up disppointing me.

    Your stance “To LOVE PAKISTANIS you must love Osama, Hamid Gul, Lashkar and ISI because that is the real, undeniable and ultimate face of Pakistan !!! :) :) :)

    What a joke !! :) :) :)

    Your pride in everything which is wrong in Pakistan– like Hamid Gul, terror attacks, ISI, begging for worldwide aid– is so palpable, that it is frightening to the reasonable mind.

    Let me tell it straight. Don’t think that Hamid GUl kicked the Soviets out of Aghanistan. They went because Gorbachev had come to power and was least interested in preseving the Soviet Union. This story about Hamid GUl is all bull to justify Pakistan’s constant demand of coins and handouts from the world.

    In the end your country was fooled by Gen Zia-the cobra’s policy of becoming the third ball of America. You now produce all the terrorists and heroin smugglers of the world. And you guys keep killing all the minorites, torturing women and exterminating baluchis.

    And today the Americans bomb you WITH DRONES at will. THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE THE RULERS CALL THE AMERICANS AND SAY…. BOMB OUR CITIZENS BUT GIVE US DOLLARS IN SWISS BANKS !!! :) :) :)

    Cmon Azhar change… I will pray for you on Diwali.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @Vijay

    Two blogs back, i thought I could open a communication channel with you. But, you ended up disppointing me. I AM NOT TO MAKE YOU HAPPY OR DISAPPOINT YOU, BUT HEAR TO PROVIDE YOU WITH FACTS ABOUT MY COUNTRY, SO THAT YOU TAKEOFF OF THAT BIGOTED EYE GLASSES THAT YOU PEOPLE WEAR.

    Your stance “To LOVE PAKISTANIS you must love Osama, Hamid Gul, Lashkar and ISI because that is the real, undeniable and ultimate face of Pakistan !!! MINORITY OF PEOPLE IN PAKISTAN MAY LIKE THE TERRORIST OSAMA, JUST LIKE PEOPLE LIKE MODI AND BAL THACKERAY

    What a joke !!

    Your pride in everything which is wrong in Pakistan– like Hamid Gul, terror attacks, ISI, begging for worldwide aid– is so palpable, that it is frightening to the reasonable mind. JUST LIKE YOUR PRIDE OF LIKING YOUR INDIA, WHILE MURDERS AND RAPES ITS MINORITIES IN KASHMIR AND NUMEROUS OTHER PARTS.

    Let me tell it straight. Don’t think that Hamid GUl kicked the Soviets out of Aghanistan. They went because Gorbachev had come to power and was least interested in preseving the Soviet Union. This story about Hamid GUl is all bull to justify Pakistan’s constant demand of coins and handouts from the world. NO GO READ THAT RAN AWAY BECAUSE AFGHAN MUJAHIDEEN KICKED THEIR BUTTS. JUST LIKE THEY KICKING UNCLE SAM’S AND NATO’S BUTT. HAMID GUL PLAYED HIS ROLE AS A ISI HEAD.

    In the end your country was fooled by Gen Zia-the cobra’s policy of becoming the third ball of America. You now produce all the terrorists and heroin smugglers of the world. PEOPLE IN PAKSITAN WILL NEVER FORGIVE ZIA AND FOR SUPPORTING THE AFGHAN WAR BLINDLY. HE HAS NO FANS LEEFT IN PAKISTAN. And you guys keep killing all the minorites, torturing women and exterminating baluchis. LOOK MIRROR IT MIGHT ALSO SHOW YOUR ATROCITIES AGAINST YOUR MINORITIES.

    And today the Americans bomb you WITH DRONES at will. THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE THE RULERS CALL THE AMERICANS AND SAY…. BOMB OUR CITIZENS BUT GIVE US DOLLARS IN SWISS BANKS !!!

    AMERCIANS WILL PAY THE PRICE FOR THESE ATTACKS……HAVING SAID THAT THERE IS NOTHING MUCH YOUR TERRORIST ARMY CAN DO IN KASHMIR……SUICIDE IS AT A ALL TIME HIGH AMONG YOUR BRAVE SOILDIERS IN KASHMIR, EVER WONDERED WHY?

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @Vinod Sharma,

    After Headley’s confessions there is little hope that there is any point of dialogue as the Pakistani state is totally sick from inside, dependent on the vile ISI and always planning to kill innocent Indians. However it does not mean we cannot talk. We can if we stick to our agenda of brutally and frankly telling Pakistanis that

    a) Pakistan is a gone case surviving on the dole thrown out by the world. The only way it can reform is by exterminating Jaish, Lashkar and other murderers.

    b) Another attack on India will mean a double attack on Pakistan

    c) We would be supporting Baluchistan as long as you support terror in Kashmir

    d) We can help you in improving the lot of SHias, HIndus, Sikhs, Ahemadiyas, Qadianis, Christians, Sikhs, Women of Pakistan,

    I think this is the only dialogue possible with a rogue state which breeds killers and terrorists.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Vijay

    this is a very inherent and typical characteristic of peaceniks to conveniently ignore some serious issues and impossibilities. this attitude is like coal tar used for making roads. it never separates.

    we are having policy makers like Mr Sharma who weaken the nation and present the same before the world as a joke.

    there is no logic in making peace with Pakistan . i hope Vinod gets this when his near one dies in terror attack.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    isnt it better to isolate crack pot Pakee swines like Azhar??

    by the way Azhar should accept that he is a product of RAPE. Azhar baita , roh mat , go to a mosque and it pork.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    typo ” and make it a pork ( thats your head , drooling out c-r-a-p )

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    C R A P Paritosh head is back

    http://www.dancewithshadows.com/rapes_india.asp

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @ Ahmed Baluch,

    To get Indians involved in the Baluchi freedom movement, why don’t you put on postings at more sites? Here is a tentative list

    a) Rediff.com — chose all topics on India and Pakistan
    b) TimesofIndia.com
    c) Hindustantimes.com– chose the blogs by Vir Sanghvi, Zia (to remind him about the plight of Baluchis in the promised land), Pramit Pal, Kum KUm Chadha… just anybody

    d) The HIndu

    e) NDTV social, through facebook

    I can assure you, you will soon have a full movement ready !

    We are with you…. The ISI, The pakistani army, the evil Jehdais of Pakistan have to be destroyed

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    This is a very funny blog by Nadeem F. Paracha describing how pakistanis are delusional about their so-called ARAB ancestory…It is simply superb.
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/nadeem-f-paracha-camel-talk-300

    Camel talk By Nadeem F. Paracha
    Sunday, 03 Oct, 2010 Shaking my hand, he bid farewell: ‘Allah Hafiz.’ ‘But, of course,’ I dryly groaned. ‘Excuse me?’ He said, staring at me. ‘Oh, nothing,’ I replied. ‘Twenty years ago it used to be Khuda Hafiz.’ Last Thursday I bumped into an old college acquaintance of mine. We were both on the college cricket team. He also used to come up with the catchiest of slogans, usually aimed at our right-wing political nemeses. We called him Mirza because he had this habit of breaking into speeches about how he had Mughal ancestry, and how his ancestors were Persian-speaking traders from Samarkand.

    I lost all contact with Mirza after we finished college (in January, 1988), but a common friend had informed me that Mirza had gone to study economics in Dublin. When I met Mirza again, I could hardly recognise him. He always used to maintain a scrubby stubble, calling it ‘Majnu beard.’ But when I met him again, he had a longish, flowing beard.

    ‘Hey, you’ve become a preacher, Mirza,’ I said, jokingly.

    He smiled back: ‘Alhamdulillah!’

    Mirza told me he was running a garment business in Karachi, and had got married in 1995. That’s also when he came back to Pakistan from Dublin. Mirza’s wife had spent her childhood in Saudi Arabia, but was studying in a college in Dubai when their marriage was arranged.

    ‘Arranged marriage?’ I smiled. ‘Doesn’t suit a Majnu.’
    He laughed: ‘Well, that’s that!’
    ‘But when did you become a molvi?’, I asked.

    According to Mirza his wife’s father (a successful businessman), was a long-time member of an Islamic evangelic movement.

    ‘I was lucky,’ Mirza smiled.
    ‘That’s nice,’ I replied. ‘So, no more drinking then?’
    ‘Oh, yes,’ he proudly announced. ‘I haven’t touched the stuff in over fifteen years!’

    But then Mirza said something that really made my eyebrows hit the top of my forehead.

    ‘I had to answer my true calling,’ he explained. ‘Because after all, my ancestors used to serve the holy Prophet (PBUH).’

    ‘Excuse me?’ I was taken aback.
    ‘Yaar, you know.’
    ‘I know what?’ I asked.

    ‘My ancestors were Arab traders who converted to Islam during the Prophet’s time. Many of them then started to trade with traders in the subcontinent, and some also accompanied Muhammad bin Qasim when he invaded Sindh.’

    ‘Wait a minute,’ I said, holding out my hand. ‘I thought your ancestors were Persian-speaking traders from Samarkand related to the Mughals?’

    ‘No,’ he respond, looking surprised. ‘Who told you that?’

    ‘You did!’ I replied. ‘You constantly talked about it during college. The whole cricket team knew where your ancestors came from.’

    ‘No, my friend, that must be someone else,’ he laughed.

    ‘No, Mirza jee, it was you. Why do you think we called you Mirza!’ I said. But he continued to deny it. Exhausted by his convenient amnesia, I asked: ‘Tell me, Mirza, does a Pakistani have to have Arab ancestry to become a better Muslim?’

    ‘Bhai, I have no problem with Muslims who do not have Arab ancestors,’ he replied, putting a hand on my shoulder.

    ‘Oh, but I think you do!’ I said. ‘Twenty years ago you claimed to have Persian ancestry. Twenty years and a beard later, you suddenly decide to have an Arab ancestry?’

    ‘Relax,’ said Mirza. ‘I never said I had Persian ancestors, and…’

    ‘Hogwash!’ I interrupted. ‘Suddenly, all Pakistani Muslims have decided to adopt imaginary Arab ancestors. What has happened to you people?’

    Mirza just smiled and shook his head.

    ‘Forget it,’ I smiled. ‘Now can I offer you a soft drink?’

    But lo and behold, I couldn’t. He said he doesn’t want any soft drink either.

    ‘Why?’ I asked. ‘Don’t tell me you have diabetes.’
    ‘I don’t,’ he said.
    ‘Good, let’s have a cold drink then,’ I said.
    ‘I can’t!’ He replied.

    ‘Why, because they are made by Jewish companies?’ I asked, smiling.

    ‘No, I can’t because colas look like alcoholic drinks, and we are advised by our elders to avoid them,’ he calmly explained.

    I was shocked. ‘Mirza, have you gone nuts? Are you allowed to have water?’

    ‘Yes, of course!’ He said.

    ‘You may as well not!’ I said. ‘Water is transparent. It looks like white wine and Vodka. Why not quit having water as well?’

    Mirza turned crimson: ‘I think we should part. It was good meeting you. Good luck and God bless you.’

    ‘Sure, mate,’ I shrugged my shoulders. ‘God bless you too.’

    Shaking my hand, he bid farewell: ‘Allah Hafiz.’

    ‘But, of course,’ I dryly groaned.
    ‘Excuse me?’ He said, staring at me.
    ‘Oh, nothing,’ I replied. ‘Twenty years ago it used to be Khuda Hafiz.’

    He shook his head again, this time with a slight look of disgust on his face.

    ‘Right then,’ said I, shaking his hand. ‘Khuda Hafiz… Abu Mirza.’

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Please sign this petition asking for equal rights for hindus in Islamic pakistan. Here in India, muslims keep chanting Babri-Babri but what about hundreds of temples getting demolished by people and pakistani state.

    Please support pakistani hindus in their fight for equality. The pakistani govt. should build Multan Sun temple to start with.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/taxila01/

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    I have signed this and this should never happen.

    Next time you are in Mumbai, help all those Muslims who are trying to get apartments becauce they are denied because of racism prevalent in your country.

    Will you do that Rajeev

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sure, I’ll but muslims are denied apartments not because they are muslims but because of eating habits especially beef eating. Will you rent out home to pork eating hindu?

    Will you do that Azhar?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    The whole of Middle East rents to Pork eating whites and hindu’s. Go to the supermrkets you can pick pork chops or beef ribs.

    Its got nothing to do with eating habits but everything to do the way you hindus are brought up, Bigoted minds. I can see that on this blog.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Azhar,
    So that settles the issue that muslims will do anything (even tolerate pork in their houses) as long as they are getting paid? Now we know why pakistanis kiss porky chinese arse.

  • Azhar Hussain

    Good one, I laughed too. He is free to do what he wants to, I mean Mirza. If you haveno problems your women sheddling their clothes,even though your culture and religion does not allow then its your prorogative right Rajeev. The same way we can do what we want and its noe of your business.

    Paracha is a very creative writer, I can bet you if he writes something against India and your culture this whole blog will be jumping like reincarnated monkeys after a banana.

    Take care

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Don’t worry, Indian media is full of Nadeem Paracha. We don’t have problem with criticism and nor do we issue fatwa to behead columnists.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Sadly Azhar,

    Gen Zia, Hamid Gul and the ISI made the people of Pakistan take of there clothes in front of the Americans and bend down in the doggie position…. :) :)

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    And Vijay we are making you taking your clothes off in Kashmir…

    Watch the video that I posted and see that green and white flag flying like its nobodies buisness…..You can’t stop that from flying in Kashmir Can You Vijay. That is my flag, That is Pakistani Flag, now bend over

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    Azhar baby is it rally your flag?

    Let me remind you that Shias are being cut up like chicken, fish, pigs and goats in Pakistan. Are you so scared to protest?

    The Kashmiris you see in the video are brainwashed louts who have been promised ***** in jannat by Gen HAmid Gul and his pig shit assoscaites :) :)

    Ha ha ha :) :) :)

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Azhar aka Pakee child of rape.

    yes , i am here to show you , your damn worth. if you wanna see a c-r-a-p head , just see in the mirror.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    azhar

    before you do your usual cut and paste for criticizing India , let me be clear with a fact , that India along with its negative traits is still far more superior to Pakistan. if you are really so interested about comparing Pakistan with any nation , just do that with nations like Uganda , Somalia etc.
    you stand nowhere near India.

    by the way , your reply link is not the answer to my comment.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Your damn worth is seen the c r a p you write…You can shout till your mata cow comes home….your saying will not change anything…….you part of the slumdog country…..you like this term cause the gora said so..

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Pakistanis should stop dreaming that getting injected with 5 cc of Arab semen somehow makes them purer !

    :) :)

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    let me also make one thing clear. Arabs are good and they are also humans. Some may be bad. But not gods.

    The killing of his homosexual partner by the Saudi prince proves some things.

    a) Homosexuality happens in Saudia as it happens elsewhere. No point in putting on a halo of pure morality

    b) Had this incident happened in the Middle East it would have never come out. In fact it woud have been portrayed as an attack by the victim on the prince, where the prince used his pure godly powers and Taekwando to ward of an assasination event

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @Vijay

    “Pakistanis should stop dreaming that getting injected with 5 cc of Arab semen somehow makes them purer !”

    They come to India i.e to inject 5 cc of Arab semen …..you guys will do anything….Arabs always come to india cause its cheap and readily available……In Pakistan they have to hide and its no fun…

    They hate Pakistan cause we don’t offer them this facility.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    We know you not only give them your women but also kids as camel jockeys.

    By the way arab find brides in India among muslims like you.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    And the hindu prostitutes….very cheap stuff but their Dirham’s go a long way.

    Rajeev Reply:

    That hindu prostitute may be your mother because muslim invaders did not bring their wives to India… :) hira mandi ki aulaad.. :)

    W Abbas Baloch Reply:

    Look at your nation Azhar. First rights for muslims …30 balochs killed …sooner or later we will take our peice of cake and enjoy our freedom

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    azhar

    the c r a p that is see everyday on the blog is yourself Mr Azhar Hussain. if you can call India as a “slumdog” Pakistan is an equivalent of sewer swine.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    or even many times worse :)

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Rajeev

    We are talking about present day, they are more than likely be your mother, sister or wife.

    Prostitution is currently a contentious issue in India. In 2007, the Ministry of Women and Child Development reported the presence of 2.8 million sex workers in India, with 35.47 percent of them entering the trade before the age of 18 years.[3][4] The number of prostitutes has doubled in the last decade.[5]

    According to a Human Rights Watch report, Indian anti-trafficking laws are designed to combat commercialized vice; prostitution, as such, is not illegal. A sex worker can be punished for soliciting or seducing in public, while clients can be punished for sexual activity in proximity to a public place, and the organization puts the figure of sex workers in India at around 20 million, with Mumbai alone being home to 200,000 sex workers, the largest sex industry centre in Asia.[6] Over the years, India has seen a growing mandate to legalize prostitution, to avoid exploitation of sex workers and their children by middlemen and in the wake of growing HIV/AIDS menace.[7]

    Normally, female prostitutes are categorised as common prostitutes, singers and dancers, call girls, religious prostitutes (or devadasi), and caged brothel prostitutes. Districts bordering Maharashtra and Karnataka, known as the ‘devadasi belt’, have trafficking structures operating at various levels [6]. Brothels are illegal de jure but in practice are restricted in location to certain areas of any given town. Though the profession does not have official sanction, little effort is made to eradicate or impede it.

    Sonagachi in Kolkata, Kamathipura in Mumbai, G. B. Road in New Delhi, Reshampura in Gwalior and Budhwar Peth in Pune host thousands of sex workers. They are famous red light centres in India. Earlier, there were other centres such as Dal Mandi in Varanasi, Naqqasa Bazaar in Saharanpur, Mali Sahi in Bhubaneshwar, Chaturbhuj Sthan in Muzaffarpur, Peddapuram and Gudivada in Andhra Pradesh.Meerganj Allahabad Ganga Jamuna Nagpur.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    azhar

    Pakistan a prostitute and so is your mom.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    @ Azhar;
    really your knowledge about these places of ill repute is astonishing. Even, I did not know these places in India. So, what you are studying? Prornography? I hope you have both theory and practical experience in abundance. I am sorry to hear you and people of your ilk, representing Pakistan in Indian papers. You will never see this kind of shi…in Pakistani papers posted by Indians. If you are a true Pakistani then May Allah save you people and your country.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    He has such good knowledge of Red light areas..it seems he goes to those market to search for his lost ammijaan and Behanjaaan (Baji).

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You should know that 70% of prostitutes in India are from muslim community, lot of them coming from Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    By the way, Pakistan alongwith Afghanistan has tradition of male prostitutes. The truck stops in punjab are hub of male prostitute.

    Have you watched PBS documentary on ‘Dancing boy of Afghanistan’?
    Watch it..

    [Reply]

    M.Srinath Reply:

    This piece is about Indo-Pak relations. Is Azharbhai suggesting that prostitution , besides Jehadi terrrorism, is another area of Pakistan”s core competence?

    [Reply]

  • vijay Kumar

    Azhar,

    Boy be dispassionate and see the truth.

    2.8 million prostitutes in a country of 11oo million is less than 0.26 percent. In contrast, 100% women in Pakistan are treated worse because of the Sharia and a retrograde legal system as well as the third rate Paksitani mentality.

    a) IN the NOrth West, the so called macho belt, girls are killed for attending school.
    HOW SAD :(

    b) Girl schools are routinely bombed as Pakistan’s heroes the Lashkars and Jammat think that women should be household goats. In the last year itself 46 girls schools were destoryed by these “pure Islamiscts”
    VERY BAD :(

    c) Women and girls are forced to wear a tent styled burqa or some other burqa violating all nowmrs of indvidual freedom and human rights.
    VERY VERY SAD :(

    d) Women can be divorced and thrown out at the will of her master… the husband who can keep temperory and permanent wives of any number. She effectively shares a bed with three other women. How would you feel Azhar , if you had to have sex with your wife, how would you feel if there were three other men in the que? :) :)

    SEE this TRUTH AZHAR BHAI !
    is this not VERY SAD & VERY BAD :) :) ??

    e) Needless to say in a violent patriachial society, whose true face is Lashkar, Hamid Gul and Dawood Ibrahim, women have little say in courts and all realms of life.

    Shame !! SHAM !!:) SHAM !! :) SHAME SHAME !!! :) :)

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Vija Kumary, Please don’t take me wrong.

    I read your earlier comment to Azhar which said, “Two blogs back, i thought I could open a communication channel with you. But, you ended up disappointing me”. I visited it curiously to find out what actually you wrote. This is what I found.

    You spoke about Pakistan’s poor performance in CWG and asked him questions like ;
    “Is it because children in Pakistan dont practice for athletics but are now taught how to throw a bomb and run 100 mtrs?” ..
    “Do you think you can win medals if a women wear a burka and run in 100 mtrs?” …
    You speak these things to a Pakistani and call it black humor. If you call a person fat or dark, it could be fun to you. Did you make sure, other person did not feel insulted/hurt? If a joke is not welcomed happily by the recipient, should we brand it as a joke or an insult?

    Smiley faces need not follow provocative words. The one which made really made me sad was
    “In Pakistan even if the woman is multiple raped, her testimony won’t even be considered as it violates some medieval passage of Sharia, as interpreted by the local maulvi …” followed by a smiley face. I felt; in the process of showing Pakistan in bad light, you went too much…

    Your enthusiasm is ever inspiring. Just be careful you fun doesn’t offend someones sentiments(Then it becomes Sharukh Khan and his gang’s jokes).

    @Azhar,
    Thanks for your honest acknowledgment with these words.
    “You being a typical Indian just don’t get. Read my post again or else I post it in hindu and maybe you might get”.

    Was just curious, what is your new nick name? (As there has been a speculation about Ravi being one:-) )

    I am sure, you are more than capable of thinking and writing “independently” about Pakistan and its relation with India than just copy-paste from Islamic hate sites and showing-us-mirror business.

    But if you guys are having fun in this Kabaddi game and happy with pulling each others legs, sorry for interfering. I have got too old for this game.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Vijay Kumar, I apologize for the typo.

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    Thank you Vinay. Now please go into what all i write.

    The point is you have read Headley’s confessions? Here is a man, in league with the ISI wanting to kill innocents all over India; he wanted to hold school children for ransom along with the ISI and Lashkar; He had surveyed choice targets in Delhi and other cities in Delhi to KILL INNOCENTS, to MURDER young and the Old.

    The ISI’s plan is to destroy India, demolish Indian secularism (of which I am the proudest upholder) and maybe even cause a dirty nuclear reaction.

    Ultimately Kasab and other cohorts launched an attack on India, just for that.

    Vinay, you may feel that for the sake of surface friendship with Pakistanis, we should forget all that and let ISI and the Pakistani state do all that and keep singing, “yeh dosti… hum nahi bhoolenge…”

    I don’t agree at all. :) :)

    I say , let the truth come out. Hammer the truth without fear or apology, even if it means no friendship. And there is nothing like black humour to get the point across. If politeness does not convey a taunt based on the truth may do the job. And when Azhar proudly flauntd his gen Hamid GUl and the achievements of the ISI, I got in black humour.

    So I dismiss your thesis outright.

    P.S: I am the proudest upholder of Indian secularism here. I have Muslim tenants in my house (he is a good friend) ; I believe Indian Muslims will surely be our first line of defense against the venal attacks by the jehadis. And I am sponsoring two Muslim kids in a cricket school one of whom has good potential as an of spinner. So no question of hurting religious feelings. But no conceding ground to lies also… :) :)

    Vinay Reply:

    @Vijay,
    I never commented on your secularism. It was only the black humor part and smileys when you are describing something disturbing from a humanitarian angle.

    I have never advocated for being friendly with Pak or Afghan or China. (In fact, I even oppose India taking part in redevelopment work of Afghanistan. It will only put threat to our Engineers life). My stand has always been, be neutral when it comes to neighbours, have zero tolerance when it comes to your own country.

    vijay kumar Reply:

    @vinay,

    I beg to disagree, You could never argue with HItler or Idi Amin after a point. What is the use of repeating volumes and volumes of logic in front of an imbecile or a murderous fanatic.

    However if you make fun of him (without insulting his religion) you can get across the point easily!!

    :) :) smileys are deliberately inserted to irritate the guy !! :)

  • Usman Chaudhry

    For some reason im witnessing “comment is awaiting moderation” bug. Don’t know why but my comments fulfill disciplinary obligations.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    In a way, its good that you hve peopleof Azhar, with his crooked green mirror from Arabia, telling him all countries of the world, including India, are as bd as hi own country.

    As you can see, he never argues Pakistan is good, but insead searches for examples to show Pakistan is only as crminal as others.

    The people who hve reduced Pakistan to a crippled, thug state have the same mind-set as Azhar.

    The good thing is that more and more people, around the world, are getting educated about Pakistan. In India , the need to stay away from this deceitful criinal state is gaining currency.

    We cannot eliminate the criminal mindset that the Pakistan state or Azhar or Taleban represents but we sure can refrain from engaging them.

    [Reply]

  • Azeez Md

    more than 60 people killed in 24 hours in karachi… cowards do not have patiece for secular country… balochs killed by taliban. Worse will happen soon for these crooks. Now they are begging USA but USA is in economic troubles.. then whom they will beg???

    [Reply]

  • http://www.tanzeel.wordpress.com Tanzeel

    Just have a look what Pakistani politicians has to say . MQM leader even accepts that partition was a blunder..

    Check their bloopers: http://tanzeel.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/the-ultimate-politically-incorrect-quotes/

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    As an Indian, I do not wish ill on Pakistan.
    If something bad happens to Pakistan it does not automatically mean good happens to India.

    Partition is a done deal and part of history. Given the nature of politics and history prior to 1947, partition was the best among many bad options.
    Everyone pays for his actions. So partition was the net outcome of the history and politics of India that preceded it.

    What India and Pakistan do or did after Partition is what has made India or Pakistan the way they are today. I think, Nehru, Patel in Congress were right to concede Jinnah’s communal demand for Pakistan. That demand represented a political ideology which is not complementary to a secular , democratic modern state.

    All I wish is that those Pakistanis, who think other countries , like India are just as bad as Pakistan or that Pakistan army/ISI has not destroyed Pakistan , they should stay happy in Pakistan with Pak army/ISI/Taleban/LeT/Hamid Gul and not disturb India or this blog!

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    In total agrement with you.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @tANZEEL,

    Loved your complitaion of quotes.

    This particular one was interesting,

    “39. Yesterday, when I asked Khwaja Imran Nazir for a lift, he was listening to Munni Badnam, an Indian song, in his car.

    MPA Punjab Assembly, Hassan Murtaza”

    Now , the Khwaja would be singing
    “Khwaja badnaam hua, Munni teray liya”

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    I feel that Pakistan is still not a country. It behaves like a rebellious Indian state with communilasm thrown in it. They are so similar and so different from modern India.

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    : D

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Musharraf declared ‘liable for murder’

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/66822/musharraf-declared-liable-for-murder/

    and then we say Pakistan is negatively portrayed by international media and there is no manipulation of religion the land of pure. (Pakistan)

    sanjay mittal Reply:

    Mr Tanzeel,

    It seems that Musharraf may be eaten by the very dogs he fed !

    Are you from Pakistan? If you are, can you tell me why it needs to foment terror to survive? Why aren’t you guys asking the youth to spend more time on the sports fields as sports definitely channels the extra energy of the youth in positive achievements.

  • http://www.tanzeel.wordpress.com Tanzeel

    I agree with you Pakaj, being a Pakistani myself I believe that we are not a nation but various ethnicities fighting on the basis of language and rights and when we get tired of fighting on one issue we look for other issues i.e religion.

    @Rajiv
    Thanks for the comments bro.

    [Reply]

    Azeez Md Reply:

    Tanzeel the issue is not just religion but hatred for other religions that has been the foundation of Pakistan…. I guess thats why many many many indians firmly believe Pakistan will not survive no matter what you do… not because these people have any hatred towards Pakistan in general. Increasing divide between country governed by democracy(still a long way to go) and nation governed by army will lead to more different destinies for both nations…. As an indian and shia.. I cannot understand how many shias have been killed this year and since independence in Pakistan.
    What is fate of poor Balochs…. An indian will never find commnality with a Pakistani despite past similarities in culture. The idea of Pakistan asking for Kashmir itself is foolish when it cannot safegaurd any one single ethnic groups lives. A textbook definition of failed state.

    [Reply]

  • vijay Kumar

    @Tanzeel,

    Wish you guys turn the anger against the ISI, Lashkar and other jehadis. Maybe a better Pakistan can emerge.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.tanzeel.wordpress.com Tanzeel

    ISI, Lashkars or even Jehadis cannot manipulate minds of majority but things are literally ruined in this part of the world. I know many guys who are not influenced by lashkars ISI etc but their mindset is as same as a suicide bomber.

    [Reply]

  • vijay Kumar

    Tanzeel,

    Somebody has to stand up to them! Otherwise even the faintest hope of improvement in Pakistan would disappear!

    I know it is difficult for a normal family person to stand up against the huge evil, Hamid Gul, ISi and Lashkars represent, for fear for himself and for his family. But the internet can be a good medium. In case somebody were to build a series of web sites, which build up a case of a Pakistan without hatred for India, Ahemadiyas, Shias, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and then show the public the immense possibilities of what Pakistan can be, a start can be made.

    best of luck, in case you want to go along that path :)

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Thank Vinay but these are the very sensitive subjects to talk about . http://tanzeel.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/taliban-stir-muted-sympathy/ check this post and see what kind of online response I got in return.

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Vijay*

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    I just read the posting. Very well written and very brave of you to write that.

    Congrats! :)

    Wish they were more voices like yours in Pakistan.

    I wish somebody could inform the Pakistanis that by rushing for military aid from the US, you people are falling in a bottomless pit. The US has few competitive consumer item to offer to the world. Bombs and “bums” , as south Asians pronounce them are of of them… :)

    Here is what happens in a typical package of American Aid to Pakistan.

    Quantity of Aid — say US $ 100 million
    Kickbacks to politicians in foreign banks — US $ 15 million

    BALANCE OF US $ 85 million given in form of Bombs, mortar and some guns by US arms factories at high prices.

    Then America asks Pakistan to blow these up at the Afghan border, or elsewhere for its own purpose. A few firewroks follow. Boom Boom . BHAM BAHAM

    Fireworks over. Bombs and bums finished.

    Pakistan comes under debt of Us $ 100 million, which the next generations will keep paying up !!

    End of story :) :)

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Latest from Washington.
    President Obama will not be visiting Americas “front ally in war against terrorism” during his upcoming trip to South Asia

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    @ Tanzeel

    Thanks for your link. I went through it and that was an eye opener for me.Yes, It seems that at least in cyber world, an intense tussel is going on between extremists and progressives in Pakistan. I wish well for Progrssive pakistanis, as a stable and progrssive Pakistan is in interest of India. No body is coveting pakistani territory, pakistan is a reality and and it can not be denied. What Indians are concerned with is the section of peopleLike hafiz and Ashiq, who are so dense in mind that they have no other concerns than to look for fitna and try to browbeat it, though there may be no such fitna in reality. The tone and tenor of their posts betray a horrible mind set, which has no productive value for any society. It is these people, I am dead against. The way, they are crushing Ahamadis on trumpeted charges is sickening. Who will be next target? These people have finished Hindus from Pakistan, Christians and Ahamadis are on firing line, one day it will be parsis, shias, Balochis and do not know what other ethinicities. These people are semi literate, I will not call them educated as they have stopped thinking and just learnt the use of Internet and feel they can teach whole world. It is for educated, and not literate only, pakistanis to fight this battel against these cave mens. The repeated challenge for debate on TV was funny, but for the implied threat in it. come to this address and get beheaded like Daniel Pearl. I do not understand that with big universities, colleges and migration to west in hundred of thousands, why not mind of these Pakistanis( at this point it appears they are on ascendnce) is improving. is there deficiency in teachers of these institutions, that humanism appears to be diminishing on daily basis from pakistan?

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Million Dollar Question, I am blank and have no idea where we are heading to and what will be our future…

  • Usman Chaudhry

    Hi Vinay,
    Really enjoyed your remarks. You seem to be a person of some age and experience. Wish you well.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Thanks Usman,
    And you seem to be too matured for your age :-)

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Vinay

    you are a perfect example of Pakistani arse licking “secular and liberal” Indian

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Dear Paritosh;
    is it an obsessive compulsive behaviour on your part to indulge in abuses and vulgar language? At slightest perceived provocation you go all the way for four letter words? Men, how one can differentiate between a Pakistani and an Indian, when both of them using same language. This is no way to exhibit your patriotism. If that urge is strong, go and join Army or become a RAW agent and do physical things.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @Vinay
    Thanks for the complement. I dont know about that but long way to go.

    @Paritosh
    Why do you prefer living low?

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Vinod

    Of course you can answer by saying– “none of the above.” :) :)

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @ Tanzeel,

    Obviously the US is using Pakistan for its own ends. And also the security environment in Pakistan may no tbe so good. Go ten years back, you need to remember when Clinton came to Pakistan, 4 different dummy aircraft were sent, so that terrorists on the ground would not know which one to hit.

    HOwever I think Pakistanis should do a rethink. Somehow the Pakistani press presented Obama as a secret Muslim who would do their job in Washington. WHile Obama himself goes out of the way to show that he is secular and has equal respect even for athiests. Unfortunately thigs sometimes become ludricous. Obama has cancelled a visit to Amritsar to the Sikh holy temple where he was required to cover his head.

    All because there were chances that he could be mistaken for a MUslim.

    At another level we have to be careful that jehadi terrorists may step up their campaign to kill innocent men, women and children in India during Obama’s visit, in order to underline their existence. They did so when Clinton came here.

    They killed 50 innocent Sikhs in Jammu and Kashmir, just to show the world how deadly they were….

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Pankaj#1

    i am pretty sure you must not be knowing the meaning of the term “vulgar”. anyways , i am not trying to exhibit my patriotism , but expressing my discontentment .
    its rather better to do this , than to speak a flowery language for a person from an enemy nation.

    @ Usman

    “Why do you prefer living low?”

    i am not a Pakistani to do that. why not ask the same question to your fellow countrymen ??? that would be much appropriate.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Paritosh;
    You made me to go back to dictionary. My apologies, you do not use vulgar language but Obscene language.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @Paritosh,
    No need to bring in nationality here. Your speaks high on your moral values.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    The last is ” Yours -what ever tag- speaks high on your moral values”. I dont blame your nationality here rather individuality.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Khrishnamurty

    Hijacked by same jokers on this blog, Rajiv, Rajeev, Paritosh and others. No matter what the topic is, it is the same guys and with same arguments and ofcourse Pakistan and Islam. Come on guys we have enough problems in our homeland, then talk about them. Lets grow up and compare ourselves with other deveopling countries or developed countries e.g China, South Korea and see how we stack up.

    [Reply]

    Ryan Paul Reply:

    @v Arun : Are you kidding ? When the topics on Vinodji’s blogs are indeed pertaining to Pakistan and Islamic terror then what do you expect here ? Discourse on Theory of Relativity ? Rajiv, Rajeev and Vijay etc are venting out their feelings rather then going and blowing themselves up as is happening in Pakistan and Israel. Which one do you prefer ??

    [Reply]

  • INDies

    I was going through Pakistani media to know more about strategic dialogue between USA and Pakistan on real ground. Obviously army has created own space and get beans of 2 billion dollar separate from Kary Luger Aid. Pakistani media is played by military and we can listen chorus very well but deliberately undermining their legitimize elected government, creating illusion and demonized democracy. They discussed Kary Luger Bill a civilian package that completely focused on the development of Pakistan in different area but excluding army from this fortune, this causes worry in Pakistan army. They have created anti USA environment throughout Pakistan, finally state Secretary Ms. Clinton fed up, frustrated, categorically has spoken, this is heard earned money of US tax payers and it is not free, therefore it is up to you to except it or decline, with this statement dust is grounded. She has threatened in a modest way at same time where Pakistan army or government have NO choice other than to except. Media hype left out agenda of development that was basic aim of this aid and what happen today nothing is new. Media is quoting predefine agenda of Indian- Kashmir, Water dispute, Afghanistan, drone technology and civil nuclear dea,l to satisfy hardliners, anti Indians but no words for development so where is AAM ADHMI, basically no where in the pictures. Civilian package is invested in the country in various sectors, create employment opportunity that helps in stabilizing economy while military aid is siphon off in buying equipment mostly from USA or China. At last Pakistan military is still supreme than AWAM’S need.

    Thanks,

    INDies

    [Reply]

  • Mahesh

    @Vinay,
    This is to continue our discussion from the older page on this blog…..
    My earlier posting and your response is copy pasted for convenience. My response follows the copy-pasted portion.

    ———–EARLIER DISCUSSION HERE ———————————————————————————-
    Mahesh Reply:

    October 20th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    neel123,
    Glad that you brought China in the equation. Speaking at a very broad level – My sense is the global trade wars we are going to witness / or more aptly witnessing already are going to have some serious military ramifications in our part of Asia. Pray that India and Pakistan don’t become pawns Chimerican conflict.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    October 21st, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    @Mahesh,
    It reminded the thread we left in between long ago. Construction works in Afghanistan carried out by China. Though, India can also participate (and is participating) in this, I would prefer India to stay away from this helping neighbors business. End of the day, US will eventually pull out. The next ruler would be a Talibani (or a person at their mercy) who would not entertain India, as Taliban just hates Indians. In that case, why should our engineers pledge their lives for rebuilding work in Afghan? If there are many other players who are interested, let them do it. As I always advocate. India should take a neutral stand in all its surrounding area(no helps required) and strict defensive (with efficient intelligence) approach in its own land. In a world where bhai doesn’t remain bhai, let us not go in search of brotherhood with Chinese, Pakistanis or Afghans.

    [Reply]
    ———–EARLIER DISCUSSION ENDS ———————————————————————————-
    OK , a couple of things here……….
    When viewed in the context of global economy – a very large part of world market is experiencing shrinkage resulting in economic deflation. Countries are resorting to raising trade barriers and currency wars . Nothing new here – a observed pattern during depression like situation.
    A similar currency war is being played out between China and U.S. complicated further by conflict for control of natural resources. My sense is what we see as skirmishes with china might not exactly be local in nature. Us and Pakistan getting dragged as pawns in this conflict is what i fear about. About Afghanistan, India has invested close to about 1 Bn. U.S,D in Afghan peace keeping efforts. Doubtful if this was purely out of altruism . To add insult to this – the rub comes in the form of china “stealing” development projects in Afghanistan. A pragmatic approach would be to forget the money invested in Afghanistan and walk out of the quagmire. It is not our mess so let us stay away from it. But then pragmatism has never been a forte of ruling classes in our land , has it ever been ?
    Incidentally, with China , another flashpoint of conflict to watch out for would be the Brahmaputra River water issue. Other than the conflict over water and very less talked about dependancy for Rare Earths (China controls about 97 percent of Rare Earths resources – elements that go in builiding of Solar Panels, Electronic devices etc.) I don’t think we have any inherent conflicts with China.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    The latest strategic dialogue between USA and Pakistan has helped to shift the hyphenation from Indo-Pak to Af-Pak on the international scene.It is in this context that President Obama has not fixed his visit to Pakistan when he visits India on November 6. Of course, he has promised to visit Pakistan in 2011. That may be probably to coincide with his probable visit to Afghanistan when American forces are due to wind up operations in Afghanistan.
    That surely is an international recognition of different status of the country vis-a-vis Pakistan.
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    Dr BN Anand

    the most important thing that the Indian leadership fails to understand is that the Obama administration doesnt give a damn about terrorism on Indian soil. he is playing a double game like most previous US presidents .

    he also exhibits an unfavourable attitude when it comes to India’s permanant membership at the UNSC

    too conclude, we can state that India is alone in its war against Pakistan/terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    typo -” to conclude”

    sanjay mittal Reply:

    Paritosh,

    Obama is very impressed with India.

    He has packed a lot of educated Indians in his cabinet and administration. In fact he regards Indian women as beauties and brains combined !

    He keeps talking about how India and China are racing ahead of the USA

    I think we should be smart diplomats and use this as a way to get our foreign policy goals through. NO point in finding fault with Obama !

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Paritosh
    I completely agree with you that President Obama is too playing a double game vis-a-vis India. It is a big irony that while on one hand he is giving in charity billion of dollars of military equipment to Pakistan,he is recovering the same money through hard cash from India by selling the same military equipment which he is giving to Pakistan for free. So in a way, India is financing indirectly the purchase of military equipment by Pakistan.

    @Sanjay Mittal

    Is he doing a favour to India by packing educated Indians in his cabinet or administration? Will these Indo-Americans be able to tilt the policies of American govt. in India’s favour vis-a-vis Pakistan? I doubt it very much. The USA govt. is simply out to grab the market share in our country as much as possible while at the same time to put as much restrictions to the import of Indian IT industry to USA.
    BNA

    Mahesh Reply:

    Dr. Anand,
    You said : “The latest strategic dialogue between USA and Pakistan has helped to shift the hyphenation from Indo-Pak to Af-Pak on the international scene.”
    IMHO, this is hardly going to help us . Secondly, our “invested engagement” in Afghanistan still hangs in balance.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mahesh
    Well, sir, you have all the right to have different perception regarding this shift of hyphenation. But dehyphenation of Indo-Pak will surely help for these two countries to be viewed on different levels at an international platform. Earlier because of that hyphenation of the two countries, the international community was always obsessed to balance the equilibrium whenever dealing with either of the two countries. One clear result of this dehyphenation has been the civil nuclear agreement with USA and the refusal of President Obama to club his visit to India with that to Pakistan with not even a brief stopover in Pakistan. We will see more of it in coming times. That will surely help to get the monkey out of our back with times to come.
    Well, the investment in Afghanistan is a gamble which I hope pays off in the long run.
    Best wishes
    BNA

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Dr Anand & Others,
    Please excuse my capacity and space as well to join in a good discussion.

    The process of de-hypehnation sure has brought some relief to India’s energy sector but that came at an expense of refusing IPI Gas pipeline project. Pinning hopes on win-win for all, the tensions between Iran-US and Pak-US asked India to quit. In mixed feelings i do not know what is the impression set (especially in the aftermath of 26/11) but this was a setback for tri-nation confidence building factor. Thus now what is more bothering is China’s offer to Pakistan for the same civil nuclear deal. WhiteHouse and New Delhi are not okay with this!! My saying is: let us not fall prey in the hands of two giants.

    Would agree to Mahesh’s poser of altruism. We in Pakistan have similar thoughts regarding India’s presence in Afghanistan. His opinion and that of Vinay’s are for own safety. The gamble is just gamble and goes well with no severe consequences unlike this one. But how events unfold is time dependent. Just my views.

    Vinay,
    Had that been a cause of withdrawl of forces I believe all are going to get a fair proportion of ill treatment at the hands of Taliban. Let it be India or China or Pakistan? the later is already facing the music.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    It is nice to see you joining us in this discussion.
    Well in my view, the IPI pipeline was never a feasible project from an Indian point of view. Even if the project had fructified, India would have been in a hostage like condition with depending on two parties for the ultimate delivery of the gas. Moreover, the Iranians were never able to decide the price structure of the gas. Rather , they were trying to dictate terms in terms of price even beyond international levels. You see, it was all a commercial venture, with the supplier and the transit country always trying to get an upper hand. The other way to transport gas through sea was too expensive proposition.
    Even now, unless China joins this venture, I am not sure both Iran and Pakistan can hope to complete this project on their own. It would require finance from international organisations which will be quite difficult to arrange going by the US opposition to this project.
    So there are hardly any regrets in the country for having missed this project. But, going by the commercial nature of the project, who knows Iran may revise the price structure and our relations with Pakistan improve to the extent where the security of pipe line and and supply of the gas could assured at the terminal of Indian border. When it happens , that would be an additional source of energy for the country which would need more and more of it for all the times.
    Regards
    BNA

    M.Srinath Reply:

    Hello UsmanChaudhury saab,
    May I suggest that the nature of Indian engagement in Afghanistan is mostly in the form of infrastructure development and human capacity development. For a country which has gone through the hell for about four decades, it deserves help of this nature. One can understand the perception of pakistanis about New Delhi’s role. They are largely shaped by self serving agenda of the Establishment ( read Pak Army) which treats it as a backyard that can serve as a strategic depth. As for India missing the bus on IPI pipeline, how can one take this project seriously when NATO tankers can be burnt at will in Pakistan.Of course, Iran cannot be blamed for this. There is no dearth of intellectuals among Pakistan who resent the Army’s role in marginalizing the civilian leadership and sincerely desire peace in the region. But as long as the military calls the shots in Pakistan, there is only so much that New Delhi can do improve relations.

    Vinay Reply:

    @Mahesh,
    Thanks for digging the thread. I keep loosing the track every time. Yes, anyone have to agree India might not have helped Afghan purely out of altruism. But what advantages did our rulers foresee, I don’t understand. China bagging the developmental projects; If India had taken it up, I would have considered it surely as a risky investment. If we can’t make the profit, I don’t care who else made it. Totally agree with you on “pragmatism has never been a forte of ruling classes in our land”. Has anyone estimated the amount India has spent (as aids) to Kashmir so far? This state is still robbing us one one side, on the other side stones the Indian policeman. A state with 4% poverty takes away 10 times the share in Indian grants compared to poor Bihar. We complain when Obama takes billions of money from India and offer billions of millitary aid to Pakistan. But what about Indian government? It collects taxes from high economic growth states (as if, it was their fault) to gives aid to Kashmir. How long? I do not understand the logic behind this “over assertion” (on one side heavy aids, heavy military presense on the other.. both drainining our economy). Stop giving aids and call back CPRF forces. (Let them kill each other, we can’t bother. We just have to guard, these (disturbing) elements do not penetrate out of the valley).
    I sincerely feel, India should no longer think of redevelopment work in Afghanistan, having the experience of burning its hand in Kashmir. Yes it would loose the money it invested. Tatas did loose money in Singoor, still they felt it is profitable to move to a different place than sticking to a place they invested. Problem with Indian government is it never has Plan B.
    Would differ from you about China and India don’t have inherent conflicts
    ( http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-s-Google-Earth-rival-claims-Arunachal/H1-Article1-616619.aspx ). Agree with Paritosh. India doesn’t have any friendly neighbours. Better not to get carried away with emotions like common origin etc. Indian spirituality always speaks about “detachment” :-)

    @Mittal,
    Re: Obama having more Indian-Americans government. How does it help Indian prospects? In fact, they are of Indian origin would make them more self-conscious not to be seen as favouring India (as Indians always are). Rajiv Shah is the head of USAID and what have we seen? Pak getting 2 billion “military” aid.

    @Usman,
    Yes, Taliban might illtreat everyone. But the degree would vary. Pak being a muslim state, has some chances of escape. (Also Pak has a share in creating this mess, which makes it difficult for Pak to get away). Chinese are not hated as much as a Hindu India in Afghan Land and they are mighty (If they are hurt, they can be brutal). I feel, it is India which needs to get out of this land first (it is neither creator of the scene, nor is going to make profit out of the situation).

    In case if Afghans (with stupidity) dared to touch Chinese, then their land would witness third occupation after Russia and US, which is from China. Again, I wouldn’t be bothered about the tea, which is not in my cup. Whether it’s a profit or loss, let Chinese have it. We (a democratic country) can’t handle the situation like China can. For us, one Kashmir is enough.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    As far as Afghanistan is concerned, India does have a lot of goodwill there. Much more than Pakistan which has created their ruin.

    Even Mulla Omar, fed and bred by Pakistan knows about Pakistan’s intention to gobble Afghanistan! Maybe the Pakistanis fed him the wrong food….

    Ultimately the west will not leave Afghanistan till they are sure that another 9/11 wont happen. It is still a long haul. Probably the US will manipulate the UN to take charge.

    India should hang on and try to get some secularism out there. That is the only way to defeat the Taliban who were taught the wrong textbooks in the rudimentary schooling they underwent at the hands of the ISI and earlier the CIA…

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    “India should hang on and try to get some secularism out there. That is the only way to defeat the Taliban who were taught the wrong textbooks in the……………..”

    Vijay – one hat doesn’t fit all.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dear Vinay,

    Thanks for your views. It is so true and appealing the way you said, why to bother and care for something which is beyond and at par – nothing more than inviting trouble. My first and rare interaction of such kind. I hope the voice is heard by your ruling class. Associated with this are other stories as well. Will discuss later.

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    @Vinay,
    First off, I don’t see a reason why you felt necessary to drag Kashmir in our thread of discussion – care to enlighten me please ?
    Secondly – have you read my comments clearly ? Are we discounting the competition for markets as dominant factor for Chinese presence in Afghanistan ? And that, we have actually been outsmarted by chinese.
    Thirdly – methinks Arunachal doesn’t constitute our “core conflict” with china. Arunachal is more of a symptom of the deeper conflict that is partly military in nature (our percieved alignment with U.S. could actually be contributing to the mistrust) and partly due to competition for natural resources. Water being the principal one. The global financial and economic situation has only exacerbated these nascent faultlines.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Mahesh,
    1> Kashmir : Just wanted to quote as an example. Pouring resource for a longer time might no longer guarantee success, can in fact drain us more. (Sometimes the K word will make an Indian go overboard. Kindly excuse.) :-)
    2> I am all for India competing with China in open democratic countries. China has been ruling toy market and house hold products in developed countries. India can challenge the “cheap” factor of China with innovative ideas. Things like handicrafts or bio-degradable containers (which already exist as small scale industry in southern India) can be be made international with proper PR and packaging. I feel these are safer (less riskier) options than competing with China in a war torn country like Afghanistan.
    3> Arunachal Pradesh : When China took over Aksai Chin, India(/Nehru) was closer to China than America. So, I rule out the Indo-US friendliness factor.

    Lastly, though not related to the thread. How much is your bet on China taking over Afghanistan? It has experience of “effectively handling” Xinjiang region, so can handle this country like Russia. Russia had constant irritation of US trained militants trained in Pak border, when it was ruling. This time, exhausted America might no more get into such old tricks and Pak is already friendly with China. So situation is easier for China. But I don’t know what advantages Pak gets from this. It is trying to give away strategic Gilgit- Baltistan region to China ( http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/aug/28/pak-cedes-gilgit-baltistan-areas-to-china.htm ) and slowly getting encircled by China. This country (Pak), because of its hate India policy, keeps inviting new trouble makers in its soil (first Taliban, now China and drags India too in the picture. India inevitably have to bear the headache.

    Mahesh Reply:

    @Vinay,
    Skipping directly to your point about China taking over Afghanistan.
    China is unlikely to get directly engaged in Afghanistan. At least not as long as its interests (to be translated as pocketing of development projects) are served.
    Gilgit-Baltistan appears to be a rapidly developing faultline with us, chinese, americans converging on the region that is not just of “strategic interests” but is also rich in mineral resources and a good potential source for Water. Notice also how Pakistan has managed to get itself entangled in a terrible mess by dragging chinese as well just to keep us (India) at bay.
    Another interesting point is about rapidly escalating concerns about chinese military expansion – for instance notice how the NYT article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/world/asia/31china.html?hp) orchestrates the Sino-American faultlines in our part of world. This is what is worrisome – us being dragged in the Sino-American conflict.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @Pankaj#1

    its indeed sad to see r e t a r d s like you on the blog. by the way please tell why does you heart pains when i say something against any Pakistani national.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    The Enlightened One
    I was travelling hence could not reply to you. Do not you think that you are assuming power to confer titles on people?. Please do not behave like a loose canon, hitting here, hitting there and no body is sure, who is going to get hit next time. Vinay and Usman were people with balanced views, and never uttered any abuse. I objected to your use of four letter word in context to them

    [Reply]

  • sanjay mittal

    HI,

    I am new to this blog site. Hope this picks up India’s concerns regarding the waves of terror attacks coming from Pakistan.

    Is there a reasonable solution? Are the Pakistani bloggers out here equally concerned since it would be effectively damaging their society too…

    Look forward to hearing more about all this…

    Sanjay

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sanjay

    as usual , Pakistanis are in a denial mode that terrorism and Pakistan are two unrelated terms.
    the Pakistani bloggers are more busy in showing India its “mistakes” rather than frankly conceding the sorry state of their nation.

    their attitude is the reflection of the attitude of their leaders. what a loser nation Pakistan really is !!!

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    Sanjay Mittal

    if you really do think that Mr Obama is so “impressed” with us , then i would have to say , your are DELUDED . whatever pro-India attitude Obama exhibits is nothing but purely pretence. i guess you are not aware of ther double game he is playing with us.

    if he really does supports us, then why he doesnt favour India for a permanent UNSC seat ??
    his administration very well knows that center of terrorism is Pakistan and yet asks us to make peace with Pakistan??

    why would an American president will be so positive about India and China racing ahead of his country.

    a saying goes in Hindi ” Haathi ke khaane ke daat aur , dikhaane ke daat aur “

    [Reply]

    sanjay mittal Reply:

    @ Dr Anand,

    I did not mean that he will change his policies to pro-India. It is for us to get him do that. If we are smart enough, we can tell Obama that we will be the wall against the rise of fundamentalism and communism which is afflicting Asia.

    So brother Obama give us the UN seat. Tomorrow when England is reduced to a power smaller than Haryana and France looks as powerful as Uttar Pradesh, does it not make sense that you have a country strong enough to fight the evil forces which originate from America’s mistakes in Pakistan?

    I think it is for us to manipulate things. HOwever with a government at the centre which has good intentions but seems weak willed, I doubt things will be presented in this manner.

    We need a Jaswant Singh in the External affairs to do thisl.

    Not a Krishana….

    [Reply]

  • Arun Khrishnamurty

    We should also look at the Saffron terrorists who are multiplying like rats in our country.

    Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy
    Press Trust Of India
    Srinagar, October 24, 2010First Published: 19:37 IST(24/10/2010)
    Last Updated: 21:46 IST(24/10/2010)Share more…492 Comments Email print

    Activist Arundhati Roy, who created a controversy the other day by questioning Jammu and Kashmir’s accession to the Union, on Sunday harped on the same thing saying that the state was never an integral part of India. Roy was speaking at a seminar on the theme ‘Wither Kashmir: Freedom or related stories
    BJP slams Kashmir interlocutors for Pakistan remark
    enslavement’ organised by Coalition of Civil Societies (CCS) here.

    “Kashmir has never been an integral part of India. It is an historical fact. Even the Indian Government has accepted this,” the Booker Prize winner said.

    Roy alleged that India became “colonizing power” soon after its independence from British rule.

    Arundhati Roy shared the stage with Kashmiri separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani at the convention on ‘Azadi–The Only Way’, among others in Delhi on Thursday.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    :) :) :) :) ISI AGENT COVER BLOWN AWAY :) :) :)
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    DAWN NEWS :
    ISI agent Azhar Hussain’s cover up as Arun Khrishnamurty’s got blown up since he
    made a fundamental mistake of spelling an Indian name wrong. :)

    He had been sent to Vinod Sharma’s site to say something positive about Pakistan.
    Unfortunately he could not find anything positive to say about Pakistan and instead tried to find negative things about Indian secularism, freedom. democracy and economic growth !

    The ISI is now sentencing him to a one month camp under Hafeez Saeed, where Azhar HUssain will be specifically asked to clean Saeed’s bottom evreyday and
    night……

    HA HA HA HA L :) :) :) :) what a joke :) :)

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    Arun Krishnamurthy

    you are a fake porki and thats easily detectable. dont hide in the Indian hide. you are already exposed.

    [Reply]

  • Arun Khrishnamurty

    Just because I said something negative about India, so i am Pakistani. WOW Paritosh you sound like an idiot when you post, but now it is very clear that you are an idiot.

    Vijay STOP the nonsense with the smilies, I don’t have to prove my Indian to credentials to anyone.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Azhar,,, oh Ajju my boy !

    I can see you behind the Burka of Arun Khrisnamurty…

    So hence the smileys ! :)

    [Reply]

  • Arun Khrishnamurty

    LOL Vijay don’t be too happy, my name is spelt Khrishnamurty.

    Way to go Arundhati Roy for telling it like it is. A lady out of more than a billion people who has the balls to speak the truth.

    एक झूठा, विजय का जीवन जीने रखें. मैं जानता हूँ कि सच दुखता है

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    The beauty of Indian democracy is we can accomodate conflicting voices. Being an Indian you have an equal right to criticise India. At the same time, merely criticising India doesn’t make it the absolute truth. Your opinion is as mixture of half truths just like everyone else’s.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Vijay

    You guys are such hypocrites….so all those Pakistani guys on this forum saying negative facts are all fine and dandy, Vijay. With your detective experience could any one of them could also be an Indian, pretending to be a Pakistani? No that’s not possible cause they are saying what you like. What a bunch of morons.

    And Arun keep it up, and you are doing a great job like Arundhati Roy.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Bhaiye Azhar,
    there are more names, why you people are stuck with Arun, Arun Khrishnamurty and ARUNdhati.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    @Pankaj,

    Good one :-) His series of mirror-postings will make sensible people to skip them, allowing Sunny Deols to take over. But he is ok. A cat pressuming itself to be a lion; won’t do much harm. It is the last name you mentioned, which damages India’s image. I am not worried about cats. But I hate termites.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Vinay’
    very true name ( termite) for this Matahari, which in present incarnation goes by name Arundhati Roy.

  • Vijay Kumar

    Azhar,

    I know now that you are not a Pakistani. Maybe you are a CIA agent pretending to be a Pakistani !!

    Only the CIA would want Pakistan to go along the present road which will lead to a bigger disaster than what Pakistan is today…..

    Since you advocate that line… maybe you are George W Bush… who knows…??? :) :)

    And Khrisnamurthy could well be Asif Ali Zardari in disguise… :)

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    And Vijay now are you feeling good after making these statements with smilies

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Reservation per se discourages excellence .However, to set right social imbalance ,it needs to be enforced but limited to a specified period.A well defined cut off date will effectively encourage the addressed communities to use the opportunity to the maximum.Perpetuating the reservation regime for ever will only encourage mediocrity

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    DrBhaShyam, well put. The problem is certain groups have an interest in prolonging reservation and for them the immorality of reservation and the destruction it cause in society doesn’t matter.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Zia, my mate WHEN WILL YOU STOP SEEING TREE FOR THE WOODS.
    Now lets say THERE IS NO RESERVATION BASED ON CASTE OR RELIGION ., BUT BASED ON FAMILY INCOME.
    Please answer me, WHO WILL BE THE BENEFECIARIES,
    will it not be the SC/ST , OBC AND MUSLIMS.
    The preference will be given to the poorer of the poor.
    IT COMES TO SAME , ONLY NO LABELS , OR PERHAPS ONLY LABEL
    INDIAN, not a bad idea really.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    So long as the Nehru dynasty is in power,reservations for any caste or religion,are provided for garnering votes and are hogged primarily by the fat cats of that segment of society and secondarily by the congress and babudom.Time has come for the weaker sections of society to refuse to be exploited by the govts that offer small doles and make big promises before the elections for looting the country.Marx,the real father of Marxism,had advised the working classes to rise against those who exploited them,saying ‘You have nothing but chains (Gulami ki berian) to lose’.Communists of West Bengal are the agents of trade and industry(the two corrupt classes).The bulk of their party cadres consisted of power-hungry criminals.A large number of them were inducted into various departments of the govt.Personaly, I won’t be surprised,if an honest probe holds them responsible for some of the heinous crimes,including the death(killing?) of infants for destabilising the govt.There is a saying in Chinese:’Don’t give me fish,teach me how to catch fish”.The real well-wishers of deprived classes must put pressure on the govts to provide free educational facilities for the first two children of parents of this class in the schools where the children of babus and netas generally study.It must be ensured that Jagjivan Rams,Paswans and Jogis (the fat cats of these castes and the corrupt favourites of the powerful families)don’t hog the reserved seats.It should also ensured that the students of these classes are not discriminated against.And this can be ensured by honest govts.Therefore,the voters of deprived and underprivilleged classes must vote only for honest candidates.This time Anna hazare could guide you in this matter.The supporters will certainly be the agents of the corrupt.

    [Reply]

  • indian

    It should strictly be based on income. Otherwise there are going to be internal wars as we have seen like gujjar agitation, jat agitation. People will realise this one day how congress is doing the harm by using divide and rule policy.

    [Reply]

  • Sumit Bose

    Helloooo, is or isn’t India a secular country?
    If we are indeed a secular country then we must not have any reservations based on anyone’s religion. We must also not have the Prophet’s birthday as a national holiday, alongside our Independence day and Republic day. We must cease being pseudo-secular. That is the only way to give a sound stability on the bedrock of individual merit. My query to this muslim and the pseudo-secularists is why cannot they give a direction to the country for merit to be the sole criteria for personal or social advancement. In areas that were seceded to Pakistan, the people of this muslim’s community drove out almost all Hindus and Sikhs, and instead of the muslims of India, who voted whole-heartedly for the Muslim League in the 1946 , who after coming into power, resorted to “direct action” of brutal aggression on Hindus, stayed on in India. These muslims who stayed on in India, faced no official harassment or social terror. They live and are viewed equally by the official machinery and the judiciary, something that is to speak voloumes of the “large-heartedness” of the Indians. Mr muslim, please dont spit on the plate you have been feeding yourself.

    [Reply]

  • anil

    I think some politicians in politics will fall sick if they don’t take minority tablets every now and then.
    Are you one of their kind?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It seems totally naive and wrong for this blogger to conclude majority of the people of the nation ”cannot bear the sight of even crumbs being given to minorities!” On the contrary, the writer should have emphasised the well-known fact that even after almost 65 years of independence, the minority still refuses to become part of the majority without realising the broad range of benefits that will accrue to them!

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/shreyasdesai Shreyas

    Instead of focusing on rightwing, why don’t u ask real questions? Why rulers of India for 600 years require affirmative action? Why is it that muslims breed at twice the national rate, do poorly in women education and empowerment and education?

    Probably you can take guy out of muslims but can’t get muslim out of a guy like you.

    [Reply]

    RajX Reply:

    For people like Zia, it is easy to take the tax payers money based n religion. To fix social issues you are talking about, it requires a lot of hard work and social reforms. There are very few social reformers in the Islamic community unlike other religious groups in India. You won’t find any dayananda saraswati in that community.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    They call you Muslim because you don’t want to erases your identity as a Muslim. Greatest tragedy of Muslim community of India they think themselves orphan.Living ghetto not to mix up in national circle, not participated in business ,education, never think to be competitive with, Hindu in every field.Don’t want forget their historical past. Till obey Maula and Moulvi.When they break the out of dated old norms and came forward with new norms which are appropriate with new era till people called them Muslim.

    [Reply]

  • RajX

    Every Indian is a minority in some way or the other. I doubt if SRK’s kids need help from the government through reservation but the “high” caste Kashmiri pandits in refugee camps in Delhi who were driven away from their lands by Muslims will definitely need government help. But the in sad and pathetic India, the Muslims who drove the “high” caste Hindus out of Kashmir and stole their property will get reservation while the poor “high” caste Kashmiri pandits will be left to rot in refugee camps with no support even though he has lost everything because he was loyal to India. Our country is full of injustices where villains are turned into heros and victims are turned into oppressors, up is down and down is up.kalyug where communal groups rule the roost and have their people like Zia firmly in place in the Indian main stream media. We need a revolution.

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5LKDVIAY6R5XC3TZH3EJ5DGQUM R

    who do you think will benefit from this? only the creAMy layer

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Why not people called Kalam or M.J. Akaber Muslim?Simple answer both mingle in main social circle.Majority accepted both of them useful to nation.Why not other Muslim follow both of them?

    [Reply]

  • Abu Ahmed

    U.P. elections have become fertile playground for a thousand mutinies after 1992 – all the major parties are seducing voters with whatever it takes to have their vote. There will always be those who will oppose any scheme designed to benefit any community’s backwards – as the cake is of a definitie size while its claimants are infinite. Whatever – Mukhtar Naqvi of the BJP should be arrested for threatening of a civil war – opposing a political scheme with another political one is the name of the game, not the threat of violence as that amounts to terrorism – hence Naqvi and his colleagues should be arrested for threatening a civil war and trying to terrorise people. Why can’t the BJP come up with a better offer to entice voters instead of issuing threats?

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  • RajX

    Hahaha…here you go again. Funny guy.

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  • RajX

    You meant to say that Muslims in nonmuslim majority nation want secularism? The answer to that is easy. Because they can’t have sharia in nonmuslim majority countries. The majority won’t tolerate primitive Arab practices in their countries.

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  • RajX

    Smart approach. Both congress and BJP are crooks.

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  • Azhar Hussain

    Your Hindus are living happily in Mid east Muslim countries, and most of your fellow country would love to go there. what BS are you talking about.

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  • RajX

    I have discovered a donkey…you.

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  • Gt12563

    In the past Iran (during Shah )has helped Pakistan during the time of 1965 war and before.Iran was once our neighbour for long time untill Pakistani came in between.It is nice of Iran accepting payment of oil in INR up to 45% and this way they can buy our stuff and we can increase trade and balance of payment in order.It is not India but US,Israel and othern Western countries do not want another muslim country Shia or Sunni to have nuclear weapons and know they have already problems from Pakistan who has been blackmailing because of Islamic bombs.Iran wants to be friendly because both sides America is sitting (Iraq and Afghanistan).But the way we hear the news western world and Israel are seriously thinking to destroy Iran’s nuclear sites.

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  • Neha Saini

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  • abhishek sharma

    If Iran is behind the Delhi attacks on Israeli diplomat, I think Iranians have taken this war a bit too far. I mean attacking your enemy in a third country can’t be justified. Or else it could be someone else who wants to see the only Shia theocracy in the world cut to its size.

    This is really going to be interesting. For Indians, this terror attack is another reminder of her view around the globe as a reluctant nuclear power.

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  • zaidali

    Completely agree with your comment.

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  • zaidali

    Completely agree with your comment.

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