Hindu Ayodhya has space for Muslims



I have had two reasons to be happy this week— the successful start of the Commonwealth Games and the equanimity with which the people of India received the Court judgment in the Ayodhya case.

India has a lot to prove before the games come to a close. Our athletes must win enough medals and the organizers enough accolades for the conduct of the sporting extravaganza that saw a slew of early controversies.

The High Court verdict on the Temple-Mosque question hasn’t received thumbs up from legal experts, jurists and historians. They’ve slammed it for placing belief above jurisprudence to declare a portion of the disputed land as the birthplace of Lord Rama.

The judgment’s political implications are hard to miss. Now astride a cyber rath, L K Advani is already blogging away to glory — citing the Court’s stamp on mythological Rama as vindication of his temple campaign that did immense harm to Indias social fabric in the early 1990s. The BJP patriarch’s vindication, if at all, has to be in the criminal case arising out of the demolition of the Babri Mosque in which he’s a party.

The people want to see and end to the Ayodhya imbroglio. One only hopes that better sense prevails among political parties to push for a mutually agreed settlement of the sensitive dispute.

The judgment undoubtedly is bad in law and the Constitution. But I support it for its political value. The judges’ afforded space to both sides by ordering its three-way division between the Sunni Wakf Board, Ram Lalla Virajman and the Nirmohi Akhara.

The Court has protected the pride and sensitivities of both communities. I see its verdict as being at peace with the non-denominational secular character of the Indian State that has no religion of its own but where there is space for all religions. Creatively used, it can constitute the basis of a durable settlement.

Had the Court strictly followed the letter and spirit of the law, one of the two parties would have had to face eviction. For Hindu litigants, that would have meant removal of the makeshift Ram temple the political and social consequences of which would have been extremely serious.

If obeyed without being challenged in the Apex Court, the verdict, as it stands today with all its legal infirmities, allows a mosque to co-exist with a temple, solving the problem once and for all. The judges have offered the contesting claimants an opening they must use.

The Muslims might find themselves wronged by the very aspects of the verdict that legal experts consider “bad in law” and as setting the dangerous precedent of placing faith above the law. But if they do not go in appeal and accept the order as it stands, they’d set an example worth emulating for all communities, including the Hindus.

The battle now should be for showing greater tolerance and accommodation.

The community that concedes an inch will gain a mile —- as a better custodian of national interest.

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  • Ziauddin Shafi

    If the Sangh Parivar was worthy of the Muslims’ trust, handing over the Babri Masjid in 1949 would have been no problem, and thats a rather bold statement; Muslims would have considered their demand of the Ram janambhumi as a one-off and just one and hence the land would have been handed over in good faith without much ado. However, these extremists are totally unworthy of trust which forces others to exercise extreme caution out of insecurity and anxiety while dealing with them. The only hope for the Muslims is that they should maintain peace and calm, repose trust in the legal system, keep struggling for their rights while performing their duties and, importantly have faith in the large moderate Hindu fraternity – for it is eventually left to the good sense of moderate, law-abiding citizens of all communities to maintain peace and rule of law in the land. Otherwise there would be utter chaos and anarchy in the country.

    [Reply]

    Ziauddin Shafi Reply:

    And yes, the Games are the icing on the cake which Indians must enjoy for their exemplary, in character behaviour after the judgement. Kudos to Shri kalmadi and company – after all the brouhaha, it is now wow wah!

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    “Kudos to Shri kalmadi and company ”

    What nonsense! Someone should have thrown a ‘gobar’ laced chappal at his silly smirking face.

    [Reply]

    Hitesh Reply:

    Touche` !

    vinod Reply:

    its a news to the world – Muslims telling others that they are untrustworthy !!
    You have made mockery of the Indian secularism. You are lost in yr fundamentalist thinking and bigotry. You are yrself doing immense harm to yr own society.

    [Reply]

    kaushiq Reply:

    And you are representing over 1 Billion Hindus?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Dr. Shah there is no need for you to drag Pakistan in this debate, we do understand to prove your credentions as an Indian you have to belittle Pakistan. I see all the time in debates as well as family parties here in the States. Our forefathers also made the right decisions to leave Indian and they are also living happy. There are millions who migrated, and there are thousands who live illegally in Karachi and don’t want to go back.

    Yes I do agree on one point, historically Ayodhya was a Hindu Temple and Baber shamelessly constructed a Mosque over it and it should be returned to Hindu’s for their temple.

    Vikram Reply:

    Khan saheb does not have to prove his credentials as an Indian to anyone. India is his motherland as much as it is mine. My forefathers as well as his are buried/ cremated and are part of this sacred land. There will be bigots on both sides who love to single out anyone as an outsider but thats a flaw in their own beings. they should be ignored.

    And Hussain saheb, if you and your family have emigrated from India to Pakistan peace be with you and I hope you too visit the land where your forefathers lived. Hope you dont live with hatred about the land where your people lived, loved and become one for many generations.

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Read Dr Shah’s comment and then read my comments,,read over and over again till you get his point and read mine.

    We in Pakistan don’t live with hatred of anyone….Vikram please read most of the comments on this blog and judge for your self…who is more hateful

    Sam Reply:

    Azhar…
    Do you think Congress should have insisted on ALL muslims leaving to Pakistan as part of 1947 partitiion ?
    that would have solved this problem in India.
    I salute pakistanis for cleansing all original religions from their Holy land..

    Pankaj Reply:

    Azhar,
    People in pak have a feeling that muslims in India have been victimized and sidelined. Just wanted to find out how about hindus in pak? They were 20% at the time of independence and now less than 1% !! Why?
    because they were converted, killed or chased to india. do you deny?
    google “hindus converted in pakistan” and if you dont get atleast 100 results, blame me. Do the opposite “muslims converted to hinduism in india”, and if you get atleast 1 genuine one, i will quit posting.
    Interesting to see whats your take on hindus in pakistan?
    Then we will talk about muslims in india.
    – Pankaj

    Rajeev Reply:

    I think secularism means respecting all faiths equally. This is how HT upholds Indian secularism.
    Mr.Sharma, What do you think about this insensitive article? Can some one write similar article on Mohammad and live to see another day?

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/indrajithazra/Shaving-grace/Article1-607448.aspx
    Did Ram sport a beard? If an overwhelming number of Hindus believe that he was clean-shaven, is that enough for us to consider it settled that the deity-king was as smooth on the chin as Lord Salman is on the chest? Since moving on from the fractious, violent, complex-ridden years of the communalised 90s (remember the intra-Parsi community mayhem played out between Russi Mody and Ratan Tata?), this fundamental and unsettled question has replaced the banal, life-destroying ones about ‘Masjid or Mandir?’, ‘Muslim or Hindu?’, ‘Maruti or Contessa?’, ‘Low cut or hip-hugging?’.

    The ‘beard’ issue has been festering for quite some time now. The media may not have picked up on it yet, but if it isn’t addressed soon through rational avenues, the matter may spill out in unsavoury ways when the nation — that as a whole doesn’t really care about whether Ram was bearded or not — is least prepared.

    All standard depictions of Ram show him without a trace of facial hair. It was in the late 19th-early 20th century that the ‘modern’ depiction of Ram — not podgy, not lanky, but just right and with the air of benevolence that many IIM toppers have — ‘solidified’ with the mass market production of affordable prints rolling out of the Ravi Varma Fine Art Lithographic Press from 1894. For the first time, thanks to master of pop art Raja Ravi Varma, anyone and everyone could afford ‘god’ in his home.

    This clean-shaven Ram, ubiquitous in millions of Hindu households by the early-mid 20th century, became the popular choice for Indian idol. But Ram was not always the chikna that you know him so well as today. I’m not much into sculptures, but I would think it to be easier to bang out a stone idol without going through all that extra chiselling to show facial hair. (The early Christians stuck to two-dimensional iconography and the Muslims, well, took the easy way out.)

    The ancient and the medieval equivalents of today’s TV producers in the Hindu programming schedule certainly preferred the ‘clean Ram’ look when it came to depictions in stone and other materials. But the painter, coming in later, didn’t have such restrictions. The artists commissioned by Rana Jagat Singh of Mewar in the mid-17th century to create an illustrated Ramayan certainly didn’t mind putting a thick twirl of a moustache on a blue-skinned, Ram. To modern eyes, this ‘version’ of Ram looks more like Indrajit (Ravan’s fine-looking and brilliantly named son) than Ravi Varma’s mama’s boy.

    But as some contending akhada or other will point out sooner than later, the Mewar Ramayan isn’t the only one to describe Big Boy Ram with facial hair. The Pothi (sacred text) traditions in Kannada of the 17th century, to give one example, describe a bearded Ram. In her history of the comic book series Amar Chitra Katha, The Classic Popular (Yoda Press) Nandini Chandra writes about how Ram Waeerkar, one of the major illustrators in the Amar Chitra Katha team, had first drawn Ram with a beard based on the Pothi texts. “He was asked to redraw his Ram according to the Ravi Varma style,” writes Chandra, going on to quote art historian Christopher Pinney on how Varma transformed “the Indian imaginary from a realm of fantasy to a historicised realised chronotope” (adult-speak for ‘grounded in time and location’).

    Interestingly, because of Amar Chitra Katha artist Waeerkar’s personal fondness for Tarzan comics — especially the artwork in the 60s-70s by Russ Manning, the Ram with the top-knot that we see in the 1970 published comic book (Rama, Amar Chitra Katha Vol. 504), later picked up by those going for a more virile, bow-wielding, sinewy-muscled chap, has become our template for Ram. For those with more pacifist leanings have the option of the closer-to-Ravi Varma version transmitted by Ramanand Sagar, in his 1986 78-episode TV serial with Arun Govil as a podgier, softer-at-the-edges Ram.

    But the matter of the beard remains open-ended and needs to be closed. One just hopes that other contentious issue — of where the real Ramgarh is, the place where Gabbar Singh’s khaki-clad bones are buried — doesn’t crop up in between. The Archaeological Survey of India, after all, can’t be trusted to determine whether the two skeletal arms found at a site in a small town near Bangalore are that of Lord Jagannath or that of Thakur Baldev Singh. I sincerely hope, for the sake of national harmony, a court will decide the matter on what countless Sholay fans believe in.

    VedicIndian Reply:

    my dear sir, in vedic religion, not much was written about the appearances of men and women in our historical texts like mahabharat and ramayan because perhaps, physical qualities were not considered important. In fact, Lord Ram and Lord Krishna are regularly called “young-looking like very young boys” which would show that they couldn’t have sported much facial hair which is still mark of manliness! Anyway, I guess God wouldn’t care either way and the definition of beauty changes with time…

    Vikram Reply:

    you are berating a rational muslim for being bold and pragmatic enough to say all this. Somehow it shows your own perverse prejudice about your own community Vinodji. you think it will be a bad idea for all Indians to trust the “large moderate Hindu fraternity”.

    Hindus and Hinduism are never going to be against any religion. We will celebrate and protect our diversity.

    [Reply]

    Mera Reply:

    this is funny , that Muslims are Secular , ( Dont mix indian muslims with MUSLIMS)

    Else how do you explain Muslim Nations all aorund you , Go build a church or any other in Mecca and Medina and see how secular Muslims ARE

    Rishi Reply:

    wow is this Vinod S. I cant fathom this!! I an excited!!

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    Ashok Kumar Reply:

    In the name of Secularism Media & Politicians have been always trying to ask Hindus to compromise everything but thanks to BJP’ rise (which again was never liked by the “Secular ” Media of India ) atleast now Hindus are no pushovers. They also know how to fight for their cause . I only would like to ask media wallahs to just watch their Pakistani Media. How much liberal they might be but still theyr start their shows with ” Bismillah e Rahmane e Rahim ” which shows how much respect they show to their religion. Hinduism in unlucky to have a large no of persons who have no pride in their religion & alays lick otherers feet. I would just share one of the things a genuine muslim shared with me . He said that ” a Real Muslim would never support a ” Secular ” Politcians like Mr Lalu Yadav or Mulayam Yadav or Digvijay Singh as he will never trust a person who is not loyal to his own community . What a thought. If a person cannot be loyal to his own community how can he think about others benefit ?

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    Paul Reply:

    I think Muslims have nothing to worry about in India. The legal experts, jurists and historians do not see the importance of the verdict. Hindus and muslims have both taken the verdict in the stride. Judgement made sure that the country will not go up in flames. Hindus and Muslims need to learn to exist and thrive while maintaining good brotherly relations. Just look across the border, where sunni’s are killing shia’s and ahmadhi’s. Ahmadhi’s are not even considered muslim.
    What a shame? India should be proud of its hindu and muslim citizens.
    Let legal experts and jurists take a hike.

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    Kumar Reply:

    You better read the history, you will know who are (were) extremists. Needless to say muslims were looters, and now there are creating terror all around the world. Be it educated or otherwise a Muslim is Muslim. See, how British Muslims/ German Muslims were planning to bomb their countries….
    As a Hindu, I feel that Sangh Pariwaar is doing good, if there was no Sangh Pariwaar you Muslims wiould make India Islamic State, you will destroy hindu culture and religion like your brothers did in Bamyan ( Afgahanistan)..like your brothers are asking for Ziziya in Pakistan… like thousands Hindusand Sikhs are forced to leave Swat valley…That is fascism in Islam… for you there is only one religion that is Islam..

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >handing over the Babri Masjid in 1949 would have been no problem,

    Congress should have insisted on ALL muslims moving to Pakistan in 1947.

    They trusted that a secular society could be built on the backs of HIndus.
    But Muslims ALWAYS need special rights, their personal law, Hajj subsidy…
    they never yield a single inch or help to build a secular soceity.

    they will only support secular society, until they become majority and then they will demand Allah’s word or islamic theocracy..

    gullible hindus…they can still be fooled after 1400 hundred years of militant islamic attacks on them..

    [Reply]

    YD Reply:

    The mistake Hindus made was that they did not demolish all mosques in 1947 as all temple were demolished in Pakistan. But time has come to implement part two of two nation theory of Jinnah.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    YD

    Can you show proof that all munders were demolished in Pakistan? What a bunch of liars your environment produces.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    Azhar,
    At the time of independence, Pakistan had 20% hindus. AFter partition of porkistan in 1971, it had around 10%. Now…less than 1%. Why? Because all of them were killed or converted or chased away to India.
    Imagine the same in India. At the time of independence, muslims were 11%. Now they are 15%. Why? Because Hindu majority grants so much security and more than equal rights to muslims. Dont quote gujarat and others. Admit, they were wrong, but with a population of 1.2 billion, dont think these are much.
    Have you even imagined a temple demolition in pak will be going through so much intense legal tangles and atleast the court would try to give some fair judgement?
    I am not even comparing India with Pak and telling you to be grateful. But imagine hindus in pak. they were slaughtered, converted and chased. No courts, no arrests..nothing. no reporting in the media.
    Just because India is open democracy and secular, these debates are even taking place and everyone like burkha dutt who is the dumbest journo in india spew their own dumbo versions of the verdict and stoke the flames.
    Just look at this thing in kerala, so scary:
    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp?filename=Ne091010Coverstory.asp
    Can you ever imagine such a kind in any muslim nation?

    Muslims always follow one principle:
    When in minority – fight for secularim.
    When in majority – Sharia.

    Thanks.

    singh Reply:

    where is need of proof, conduct of Pakistan itself a proof.

    enough is enough. Muslim must and ought to star accepting that other religion is also as good
    (what they think) as others.

    This type argument show the proof is not going to work

    come on show me the proof that Koran has been reveled by Allah.

    ANIL Reply:

    I do not vouch for pakistan but have seen temples being burned at kashmir.common people walking with shoes on inside temple

  • Rajiv

    Th HC judgement, should encourage both the parties to be generous to the other. There is a small wiindow of opportunity.
    If this is dragged to the supreme court, it will be a roller-coaster ride again.

    One thing has struck me is that a very large section of the media, who often shout ‘respect for judiciary’, ‘respect for judicial process’ etc are now using most abusive terms to define the judgement.

    Left-wng, anti-India historians like Romila Thaper calls it ilogical, dangerous etc
    Jawed Naqvi, most virulently abusive toards India says ‘the judgement betrays Indias bias for obscrutanism’
    All over the media, those that made a living berating centrist right parties now call the judgement illogical, leap of faith, not based in law etc.

    Two things have made the media very irritable,angry and sullen this week.
    1. Mature reaction of the people and main parties to the dispute.
    2. Successful and spectacular start to CW games.

    They must now be accusing India of conspiring against the media.

    [Reply]

    Mera Reply:

    What is this about Parties , this is not about some land dispute , its History being disputed here Boy. Wake up , its not a court case between two parties , all the indians are involved here , sikhs , buddhists , christian anyone who considers himself to be indian.

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    Rajiv,
    You said :
    “Left-wng, anti-India historians like Romila Thaper calls it ilogical, dangerous etc
    Jawed Naqvi, most virulently abusive toards India says ‘the judgement betrays Indias bias for obscrutanism’
    All over the media, those that made a living berating centrist right parties now call the judgement illogical, leap of faith, not based in law etc.”
    Have you read through the arguments who have expressed dissenting opinion on judgement ?
    Why not discuss the principles of dissent instead of using labels ?
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

  • Praveen Saxena

    So now the great secularist position is that the judgement is flawed in law. Even if it was unanimous except about the Rights to the disputed land. As if all secularists are constitutional law jurists. Just because one or two lawyers well known for their Pro-Congress positions have opposed it so now all the secular drum-beaters have started yelling foul and in their efforts to confuse have started mixing fact with fiction. So the allegations about Advaniji.
    But then that is one of the cardinal principles of the ” Doctrine of indian Seclarism’. Spread Lies lies and all damned lies. If failure become imminent , shift the goal post. Earlier it was all should accept the court Judgement. Now that it has gone against them so it is flawed. Such show of double standards is nothing new. The most mischievous statement came from the Designated PM . ” Staus Quo shall be maintained till the Supreme Court decides” as if the isuue is lready before the Supreme cOurt.

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  • Michael Selby

    I remain optimistic about the final outcome. I believe the Supreme Court of India will reverse the decision and award the main mosque area to the Muslims. In the interim, though, I believe it is important for commentators to keep asserting the distinction between the legal and the pragmatic. The Hindu right is attempting to blur the distinction only because they know their case has little legal merit.

    After the mosque has been restored to them, I propose that the Muslims should do something that is at once legal and pragmatic: announce that neither a temple nor a mosque would be built on that land, but rather a state-of-the-art maternity hospital. Such a hospital would not only honor the mythological birth place of Lord Rama, but also honor Indian women, for the sake of one of whom Lord Rama achieved the ends that are both heroic and justly celebrated.

    India has the highest number of maternal deaths of any country in the world. 117,000 Indian women die every year during childbirth, and one in seventy Indian women have the lifetime certainty of such death. Most of these deaths are preventable. If the litigants and the people of Ayodhya are able to rise above their differences and join hands in such fashion, they will not only save lives, but will also have transmuted a tired, old, backward-looking conflict into a vibrant and creative forward-looking resolution.

    [Reply]

    Ved Reply:

    The secular scoundrels calling the verdict ‘bad in law’. Their job like Mulayam, Lalu is to to keep the pot boiling and to shed crocodile tears for muslimvotes.Very bad in taste-Vinod.Any law degree?

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    @Sam.

    C’mon man, you have to accept what we are today. And move forward on a positive basis. The basic issue remains amalgamation and not separation.

    What happens in case we talk about Islam being the biggest problem? The basic issue of religious terror does not evaporate. We still remain a nation of 1.1 billion with 150 million Muislims. So should we spend our life time fighting with each other?

    The issue of Muslims migrating to Pakistan does not arise. Many did not go because they believed in the secular India which was going to come up after partition. Some who wanted to go, were NOT accepted by Pakistan after 1948. Even the Muslims from UP and southern areas who did migrate, had problems of assimilation and were called “mohajirs.” Many Biharis were not even allowed in.
    WOnder why the Muslim leadership in India never tells this truth about Pakistan to Indian Muslims.

    I interact with Indian Muslims on daily basis. There problems and smiles are the same as yours and mine. They also cheer for Sachin Tendulkar, as much as I admire Aamir Khan.

    It is only a section of the clergy (not all) and some selfish politicians like Mulayam and Shahbuddin who drive a wedge between communities.

    Your effort as well as mine should be to wean away the Muslims from this disastorous path as well as convincing the majority of Hindus to remain secular.

    All friction points between communities like conversion, family planning, Mandir Masjid disputes, have to be sorted out on a case to case basis.

    india , really can serve as the world model of a multi-religious society living peacefully :)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vijay Kumar, bravo, bravo, bravo. I could not agree with you more.

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Vijay

    Good one.

    Sam Reply:

    just wait until hindus become less than 50% in india.
    we will see how long it takes to declare india as islamic theocracy after that.

    people cannot understand the evil nature of islam, which denies basic human rights to other religions.

    Blasphemy, jizya, triple talak, sharia, apostasy, marrying young girls..
    all these are not dreamed by clergy.

    these are Koran’s statements and a true muslim is supposed to follow them…
    a true muslim is supposed to wage a jihad until others converts or accept death..

    just go read blood history of islam..
    those thugs are just behaving as a pious muslim should..

  • Pankaj

    Vinodji,
    i never took this allegation of many a bloggers that you are a biased and embedded Journalist, but now I am having my doubt. Your tone and tenor, for the comments on Advaniji is betraying you.At this point, SHAM secular brigade is berating judiciary, for a judgement, which has a good potential to solve this intractable problem. Though, stickler for word in law, you are missing the other component, spirit, as it goes in ‘law in word and spirit’. As it has been proved beyond doubt that there was a temple below the mosque, a historic wrong is being corrected. this would assuage hurt feelings of hindus, from centuries. Judgement was also not dismissive of muslim sensitivities and has accomodated them. if state is run strictly according to written words of law(about which i know little) and without putting a thought to it, it will become like sharia, no mutation, no different interpretation. let us not go to that path.

    [Reply]

    ABSheikh Reply:

    Where were these psuedos in the Shah Bano case? The law was uttely disregarded and overturned with the brute majority in the parliament. Now they have the temerity to talk about law and the constitutionality of the judgement. They want their cake and it it too for the votes of muslims. Muslims, in their own self interest, will be well advised not to touch these psuedos with a barge pole. If they do, they will live to regret it for ever more. The history of last 60 years should have taught them that the psuedos are totally untrustworthy.

    [Reply]

  • Anmol

    This judgment marks the way for a peaceful settlement .. Lets build a temple and a mosque and get on with Life .. too much time and effort has been spent .. we need to bury the ghost of 92 once n for all ..

    [Reply]

    Anmol Reply:

    Couple of words in Hindi ..

    मंदिर तो बन जाएगा …पर राम कहाँ से लाओगे ? उस मस्जिद कि दीवारों को…क्या पाक कभी कर पाओगे? जिस चौखट पे लोग जले ..क्या राम वहां जा पायेंगे? जिन गलियों में खून गिरा …मौला क्या रह पायेंगे?

    it means .. Once can construct a Temple .. But from where will one get the essence of God Ram . Will Lord Ram’s presence can be felt in the place where blood was shed .. ?

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    Just Indian no particuler faith Reply:

    Man you said it ALL. Finally we are a MATURE NATION Full of Real Indians regardless of what they beleive in.

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    Vikram Reply:

    Remember Lord Ram was a warrior. All our mythalogical heroes were.

    Sometimes that is what is needed for the the truth to triumphs over evil (and please I am not calling muslims – the evil here) I am just talking about the naive notion about peace at all costs.

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    Paul Reply:

    Let my muslim brothers read this. This is really the essence of hinduism. If anything happened to the contrary, they were not hindus. They were fundamentalist Jihadis.

    [Reply]

    singh Reply:

    Anmol

    This goody goody word doesn’t apply in real world.

    See the reaction of so called secularist. they are questioning every thing in judgment like ASI report, Faith , Etc

    you must know the reason, this judgment has closed down their shop and potential to destroy their carrier.

    so it is more than Muslims they are feeling that they are lost .

    so u got the main culprit all along.

    This bunch of people will never allow to settle this ,because their life is based on violence and chaos of others .

    This time also they will make sure party concerned move to SC.

    so real war is with them and we have to unite to defeat them.

    Muslim problem is incidental only.

    [Reply]

    Anmol Reply:

    @ Singh

    Every one of us is entitled to his or her opinions in our strong democracy ..
    So questioning does not harm any1 ..

    Majority of legal experts say this judgment is more on Faith rather than legality .. But This is a special case and I strongly feel it can lead to a viable solution ..

    My friend if u read many bloggers (some Muslims) have condemned Babar .. few in fact said that even 1/3 rd land to be given for Temple construction ..This is the beauty of peace and understanding ..

    This is an excellent chance for Us to cremate this issue .. So lets make the most of it and Build a temple .. and a Mosque (some where near if not at Janambhoomi) .. Because Hinduism has taught me to respect all and do the Karma .. These are reasons Hinduism has prospered through 1000’s of years of rulers like Babar ..

    So dont sway in emotions … and work towards peaceful resolution :)

    Anmol Reply:

    head of Nirmohi Akhara, Mahant Bhaskar Das has mentioned that lets solve it peacefully !!.. (TOI Oct 5)

    Fellow Bloggers this is a moment of joy .. I sincerely wish we get to see this issue resolved ..
    another reason of course is the Amazing Opening ceremony .. the best part was the showcase of common man .. and of course the rich culture of our country ..

    Jai Hind !!

    [Reply]

  • ishwar

    Mr. Sharma says:
    “The High Court verdict on the Temple-Mosque question hasn’t received thumbs up from legal experts, jurists and historians”

    The fact is none of them matter. The case was before the Hon’ble High Court and they have ruled the following:

    “The disputed site is the birth place of Lord Ram.”

    “The disputed building was constructed by Babur, the year is not certain but it was built against the tenets of Islam. Thus, it cannot have the character of a mosque.”

    “The disputed structure was constructed on the site of old structure after demolition of the same. The Archaeological Survey of India has proved that the structure was a massive Hindu religious structure.”

    I am reproducing the same for the benefit of Congressis who can’t seem to digest it, Mr. Sharma included. Keep on crying, seculars.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    The word secular has been abused by people claiming to be secular.
    Thats a great tragedy.

    [Reply]

    anil heroor Reply:

    i read mr inderjit hazra ’s article in the sunday edition on pg 14 and was deeply disturbed by the language used. Sri Ram is revered by millions of Indians and though mr hazra is entitled to his views the sensibilities of others should be kept in mind. Would he have used similar language while describing Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) ? why are Hindu deities treated with such disdain? It is not enough to hide behind the veil of humor to indulge in such venomous talk. The honorable court has delivered a mature judgement considering the sensitivity . I think people like mr hazra are disappointed because India reacted in a mature manner and they were denied a chance of sensationalism?

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    …I think this is a fantastic judgment !!

    I know enough lawyers to know that few have interest in the case as much as they have in delaying the case to make their own fee. In case India were to go back to the jury system, we would be much better of.

    I spent yesterday afternoon reading the Babarnama on the internet. Nowhere does Babar mention that he built a mosque in Ayodhaya. However what he does mention is that he routinely killed pagans and ‘Hindis’ as his army moved all over India. his basic intention was to conquer as well as convert people to Islam’ Sometimes the number of killings per city are 2000. Sometimes 4000.

    Being a proud Hindu — despite my frequent exasperation at rituals– I started getting angry as I read the unemotional stories of killing of my forefathers…

    But then I closed my eyes and reminded myself. THAT HISTORY is THE PAST. We have to CREATE HISTORY NOW!

    And that can be done only by accommodation between Hindus and Muslims and not hatred….

    And this excellent verdict in the Ayodhaya case gives this opportunity.

    Did Babar have a right over the land he conquered? Did he get a lease made? Obviously no.

    Did both communities worship in that place? yes as per gazette records.

    So I think if a temple and a mosque come up side by side, it would be great. In case Muslims unilaterally decide that they would donate this land to hindus . Fantastic.

    In case Hindus help in building a mosque out there and Muslims in building a temple. Beautiful!!

    However I would want that no Togadia or Mulayam or Shahubbudin enter that area to take the credit. Maybe a joint committee can be formed that hardliners do not takeover. Similarly statements like ” RaM is a mythical character… etc etc are hurtful. ” These will only enhance animosity.

    Let us move forward with this judgment !!

    PS: it has been called a panchayati judgment by lawyers who believe in prolonging cases to make money. Anyway I hope our higher and lower courts should learn from this and bring about closure and not let matters hang

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Coming from a Hindu Fundamentalist and a fascist to boot, this is a gem.

    [Reply]

    Paul Reply:

    Blood shed has been spared. I guess Rajiv is not happy.

    [Reply]

  • Gopi Thomas

    A verdict is made by the high court. Accept it, if not, appeal. Let the courts decide; not the newspapermen.

    Wakf Board will be doing a terrible in justice to Muslims, Hindus, others, and India if they drag this to supreme court. Hindus (the twop groups of the 2/3) will also be doing terrible injustice yto all if they take it to supreme court.

    Maulyam, journalists, controversial historians, secularists — they all wanted street fights and killings. Our common man is now quite mature. This time the appeasers and hate mongers have lost.

    Muslims have lost nothing. They can b and worship. They can not do in this single one; . for that they had left it unattended for almost 100 years. There is no meaning in dragging the country over a “dead” mosque.

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    I understand that the property is not recorded as Waqf Property anywhere in law or records. Is it true ? And if that be so, how and what rights Waqf Board has in this suit? It is not clear to me. It is also stated that this issue is already settled by Supereme Court long back in 1996. Will somebody enlighten me further on this issue?

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Vinodji,

    I just loved the first two lines of your blog!

    Just proves that despite us being at loggerheads at times, we do have a “common constituency!”

    If India has to grow, it has to think it is as good as the best. NO room for an inferiority complex. If we make our roads and Metro or the Airport, we have to think big. Get the right technologies and train ourselves to use them and then send them all over the world. We did it in IT. We do it in the building industry in the Middle East.

    Yet when it comes to the construction industry in India, we lag behind because of corruption. However in the CWG some big projects have been done. Sadly because they were all done in the panic mode, not enough young engineers could be trained on them.

    I travel to China often. They surge because they dont have negative forces pulling them back. Again, I would like to give Mani Aiyar’s example. Why? Because despite his apparent education and intelligence, he got into negativity to undermine a huge effort to showcase our achievements.

    Anyway I’ll come back to my views on the judgment soon….

    [Reply]

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Vinod ji,
    As usual you have spoken like a true Indian. The moment you get accolades of being a “pseudo secularist”, assume things are on the right track. I see the judgement in the same light as you do. As a Muslim I am OK with the judgement and in fact feel that the Muslim community should hand over the remaining one third land to the Hindus for the construction of a Ram temple. If there is a sacred Mecca for Muslims, Hindus have all the right for a sacred Ayodhya. Also such an act will mark the end of a long exploited communal issue which all parties (BJP, Congress, SP, RJD, etc) have used at will to cash votes. In fact I can appreciate why the likes of Advani were sad on 6th Dec 1992….with the demolition of the mosque their “dukan” of communal politics was permanently closed (at least we felt so!).
    As an Indian I see the judgement as a legally flawed statement of solution. There is no legality or legal common sense in what the judges say and mean, but can we complain? What intrigues me as an Indian is the fact that had the Babri mosque not been demolished on that fateful day, what judgement would have come now? Would the honourable judges have asked for demolishing the central dome underneath which the idols are placed and which according to this judgement belongs to Lord Rama? It is interesting that in a sense the barbarism of 6th Dec is a blessing in disguise for the Allahabad bench. But yes then the acts of Dec 6 are in a way legitimised too through this court. Again, can we complain? We have bartered peace for solution (not for a legally correct judgement) and that is what matters. The danger is not for the present but for the future. If tomorrow a fraudulent fakir claims that a dargah X in Connaught Place cannot be removed for a new Metro line, unfortunately he will be on a firm legal ground, the foundation for which has been laid by this verdict.
    Truly,
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi
    Blog: http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Dr Sahab,

    Much as I admire most of your writings, i would like to remind you that for Hindus a ram temple in Ayodhaya would be what Mecca is for Muslims.

    If it is compared to a fakir claiming a dargah– it does feel hurtful, which I am sure is not your intention.

    However in my opinion the temple should come in a manner of reconciliation. And if a temple and a mosque come side by side , I would be equally happy

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    Well said Vijay. We allow everyone to even argue about existence of Lord Shri Ram. Pity our lenience. Would christians or muslims would even allow that?

    Vikram Reply:

    The guilty of the riots after the Babri masjid demolition should be punished. This verdict in no way absolves them of their crimes

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    How come muslims get away with killing Hindus in riots ?
    DId any muslim ever get punished for riots in independant India ?
    If so, please give me a list.

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Vikram, let the guilty of 1989, when 1300 Hindu temples in Kashmir were destroyed by Islamic terrorists, all of whom, unlike Mir Baqi and his barbaric mercenaries, are alive and kicking, be punished first and then we will punish those of 1992.

    Sanjay Kumar Reply:

    I am geneticly congressi & Brahmin I saw from my childhood how congress divided this country in cast & religion .Even they divided families.
    I saw it from my eyes in seventees ,some examples from my home town:
    From hindus they supported Brahmin cast to control savarn i.e kshatriya,vaishya etc
    Supported ravidas cast to control so called schedule cast.
    From muslim they supported saiyad & khan to control other muslims i.e ansari ,julaha etc
    This was the start of dividing Indian society. Latter other parties also started same.
    When I was studying in primary school in seventees in my village I saw Brahmin & kshatriya can not sit down with so called harijan. Same way saiyad & khan can not sit down with ansari or julaha.
    Interestingly there was very good friendship between Brahmins , kshatriya ,saiyad & khans. I was also one of them.Today it is also divided.
    This cancer to our beloved society given by congress latter other parties used it their own ways & they divide me & my family also.
    Hence I can not talk about division in society in way of cast & religion. My house is divided by these polticians ,first I have to think about that & try to keep in order.

    [Reply]

    singh Reply:

    Dr. Alam

    Mmain point is that Muslim rulers has done lot of injustice in past and that has not been addressed till now..

    This doesn’t mean that crime committed by older generation should be settled with current one..

    Following are the mistrust against Muslims

    1)they always take very adamant position with one liner that it is not permissible in their religion
    2) they asked for division of country on the basis of “religion”
    3)when they are majority they don’t behave with kindness , accommodation etc
    4)Hindus are only reacting to the Muslims , one can say safely in totality

    certainly, in reaction they are hurting Muslims, but do u not think this is what u have collectively asked for.

    still u have the the time, reform your faith. Dr Alam you know with time everything has to be reformed even god words

    become individual , like relationship between state and citizen .

    I am sure Hindus(name given by Muslims) will stop reacting.

    any way Hindus doesn’t have long memory.

    [Reply]

    SKChadha Reply:

    Dr. Sahab,

    I disagree to your suggesion of handing over 1/3rd land by Muslims for construction of temple. Please realize that, if not now, but in time it will give defeatist feeling to Muslims. Which is also not correct. I do not know what is wrong, if two communities pray for almighty in their own way and side by side. After all this was happening since time immemorial in Ayodhya.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims must have been asked to go out of Ayodhya and build mosques outside the Hindu holy city.

    Hindu’s should just follow what Muslims do in Makkah/Madina.
    Do not let any other religion build, in their holy citties.
    (do not even let them enter, and if they even come as a visitor could be punished with death)..

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Doctor Saheb
    Your comments are most of the times well balanced and make sense and is always is a matter of pleasure to go through them.
    But this time, you seem to be contradicting yourself when you write “the judgement as a legally flawed statement of solution”. I shall invite your attention to the judgement in the Shah Banoo case. That judgement by the apex court, though based on perfect legal grounds was not acceptable to the muslim community. As a result the law was changed by an act of Parliament legislation to suit the minority community what was not suitable to them from the legal course. Now even if we believe that the Ayodhya judgement is based on faith rather than any sound legal ground, it can be argued the other way also that judiciary has vindicated the faith in accordance with the law of the country.
    So instead of finding fault with this judicial judgement and in the process to sulk, is n’t it time to thank Almighty for having brought the Nation out of a turmoil which was always haunting the country as well as different communities and in the process providing something for the political parties to exploit the common man. The minority community has as much responsibility to accept the rule of law as the majority community is required to listen to the law of the land.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Anand sahib,
    Thanks for putting faith in my previous writings and sorry if I disappointed you this time around. But honestly Anand sahib I stand by each word that I write. To answer what you ask, I think the handling of Shah Bano case was the biggest blunders of the Congress regimen of the time. The appeasement of Muslim masses on the pretext of Muslim Personal law is as big a shame as doing politics in the name of religion of the majority. The law should have taken its course and all Muslims should have or made to obey the law of the land. So please don’t argue that it was wrong then and right now. It was wrong then as it is wrong this time around. Two wrongs cannot make a right. Anand sahib this is the basic flaw of the kind of secularism we practice, it is always an onus on the other party; when the matter concerns self, all secularism goes out for a toss.
    Go through my post again. Everybody (including your good self) has avoided answering the questions I have posted in my two remarks. With this judgement of faith can we condemn the barbaric laws of Saudi Arabia which so very unfortunately are also in the name of faith? With this judgement in legal files, won’t masjids, dargahs, mandirs and God knows what other structures start cropping up across the map of India? How could we then challenge faith in the court of law? What would have happened if the Babri masjid would not have been demolished on that day? Would the honourable court given orders to demolish the central dome this time as the land underneath that dome belongs to lord Rama? And this was a possibility as the verdict was for a title suit and the judgement we are told would not have changed, Dec 6 or no Dec 6.
    Anand sahib secular nations should not have any mandir, masjid or guruduwaras……I fail to understand the logic that both masjid and mandir should find place in the secular fabric of a nation. It’s a small thing which we need to understand: RELIGION HAS NO ROLE IN A SECULAR SOCIETY and if this hurts (which I presume did to a lot of Muslims and Hindus who read my earlier remark) than come and please declare that we are not a secular nation.
    Hope you understand.
    Truly,
    Dr.Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    @Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    Thanks Dr. Khan for a very enlightening response. But allow me to say that your reaction to Ayodhya verdict is based on being secular credentials but the reaction of the Sunni wakf Board is based on being an aggrieved party who believe to have lost the first round of judicial battle. In any case, it was certain that the verdict of any nature would not have satisfied any one in the two communities. But if this judgment can help to bury the ghost of turmoil which the country is facing for many decades should have been welcomed. This pot will keep on burning till the final judgment from the apex court becomes available. The idea is to keep peace in the country. Though I cited Shah Banoo case for the sake of arguments, but in my hearts of hearts , I feel the Late Rajiv Gandhi had done a sensible act which resulted in peace prevailing in the country. Well, in a multi religious and multicultural society, adjustments have to be made to keep everyone in good humour. Yes, it may not be a proper approach from an absolute point of view , but it is surely a practical and pragmatic approach when one is entrusted with the job of ruling the country and keeping various communities satisfied. In a way, we have to thank God that at least here every one has saved the face as it is a judicial verdict, howsoever flawed it may be and not an executive order/ordinance from the Government. If we want to reignite the flames of hatred and open the wounds, then that is what politicians have started doing. For the sake of buying peace, let us at least agree to go by the verdict. But if any one is not satisfied, let the aggrieved party go for an appeal. But let us not cast aspersions on the motive of judgment which took six decades to arrive.

    In any cae, it has been a pleasure exchanging views s with you.
    Regards
    BNA

    Rajiv Reply:

    One thing is in-defensible. Some public personalities of the erroneously called ’secular media’ have attacked the verdict and in particular taken exception to remarks by Justice Sharma.

    However the fact is that Justice Sharma was the dissenting opinion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Justice Sharma was not part of the verdict and majority opinion.

    It were the other two judges, Justice Sudhir Agarwal and Justice S U Khan, whuich delivered the majority opinion and held, based on Archeological findings, that were witnessed by lawyers from both sides and other witnesses, that the Babri Mosque was built over the remains of a large temple.

    Now that in itself, should not automatically mean anything, but these dishonest media personalities are carrying on mischevious and wilfully dishonest propoganda by attacking Mr Sharma and trying to discredit ASI..

    Its ASI , which protects and maintains 1000s of historical mosques and other structures all over India.

    Mahesh Reply:

    Dr. Khan,
    Sorry for jumping in the debate.
    Here are my two bits about the judgement……
    The Indian state – in delivering this judgement – essntially appears to have taken a calculated risk.
    On one hand there is inherent risk of setting a precedent at times allowing faith to overrule the secular laws.
    On the other hand – considering the Social Context in which this judgement is delivered, this is not 1992. The communal polity does appear to be losing influence among masses. My sense is the governing class of land has essentially placed its bets on the receding influence of communal politics hoping that it will wane further to a point of being insignificant as time passes by. It may be quite some time before we know the after-effects of this risky move.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    B.V.SHENOY Reply:

    Dr. Shah Alam Khan Saab,

    “had the Babri mosque not been demolished on that fateful day, what judgement would have come now?”

    Please know that the day Rajiv Gandhi had the locks opened and later the day he laid the shilanyas, the fake mosque was marked for demolition in any case, because there was no question that the two will stay together, as they are staying together in Kashi and Mathura by sheer force.

    If you call 6th December, 92 barbaric, please know that history has recorded Mir Baqi who destroyed the Ram Mandir and built this fake mosque, too is barbaric and all those who have supported Mir Baqi including our pseudo seculars too are barbaric.

    [Reply]

    Krishna Reply:

    The writer seems to have missed the most important point. Contrary to his reading that the judgement is based on faith, it is based on factual evidence. The report of the Archeological survey is conclusive and clear that there was an Hindu temple under the masjid. Regarding faith, all religions are based on some form of faith. Muslims believe that Koran as is was the word of Allah and given to the Prophet, through the angel. They also believe that the the Prophet ascended to the heaven bodily from the The Dome of the Rock. According to Islamic tradition, the rock is the spot from which Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and born to Virgin Mary , through immaculate birth, and also believe that after birth he was bodily resurrected. If you start questioning the faiths and demand evidence, not a single religion as they exit today can survive. So, let us leave faith aside and look at the facts. There was a temple and the mosque was built on the ruins of the temple. Once this simple fact has been proved to the satisfaction of the court, rest is history, as the saying goes.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Have you seen how a a delinquent two-year old behaves when his favourite toy has been taken away ?

    Thats how the erronously named secular media is behaving post-Ayodhya-HC verdict.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    HINDUS DESTROYED HINDU TEMPLES. (Don’t believe it, read on)

    During “Chola times, in a series of martial expeditions to conquer the world (dig-vijayas). In 1014, Rajendra I invaded the (the present-day) Sri Lanka, sacked Anuradhapura, plundered its stupas, opened relic chambers, and took so much treasure from the Buddhist monasteries that the Buddhist chronicles compared his forces to blood-sucking fiends (yakkhas). But Buddhism was not the only Chola target. A western Chalukyian inscription, in Bijapur district, accusses the Chola army of behaving with exceptional brutality, slaughtering Hindu women, children, and Brahmins and raping high-caste girls.

    Such violence against temples had little, if anything, to do with religious persecution. The Cholas were generally Shaivas, but within their own territories they protected and enriched both Shaiva and Vaishnava temples, as well as Jaina and Buddhist establishments. It was, however, the Cholas’ custom to desecrate the temples of their fellow Hindu rivals….”

    The Hindus, An Alternative History, by Wendy Doniger. Page 349

    [Reply]

    Amit V Reply:

    Sir, doesn’t the word ‘Alternative History’ in the title itself not imply something, what’s that word, : ‘Revisionism’.

    And when did a polemical firang with a known hatchet to grind, gain credibility to start issuing the certification on the your paternity and ancestry.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Amit, in fact your assertion are ludicurous to say the least. It is patently obvious that you have not read the book or know of Wendy’s qualifications or track record.

    The word Alternative in the title is because History is mostly written by victors – mainly men, mainly Kings. This book uses same resources and available light and looks at the history of Hindus from the perspective of Women and Animals.

    [Reply]

    Rishi Reply:

    LOL only an idiot will quote from an alternative history! Ravi either u recently converted from hindu or are about to? Good luck in your new faith.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Another bigot

    [Reply]

    Mohan Ramchandani Reply:

    Ravi,

    Wendy Doniger had also said after analyising Ramayana that Ram was a sex maniac.
    Do you beleive this too ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I have read the book, and I can not recall her saying that. But I notice that you are saying it.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Here is a list of other books on Hinduism written by Wnedy Doniger.

    1. Siva the erotic ascetic
    2 The Origins of evil in Hindu mythology
    3. Dreams, illusions and other realities
    4. Splitting the difference: Gender and Myth in Ancient Greece and India

    She has also translated:

    1. The Rig Veda
    2. The Laws of Manu
    3 Kamasutra.

    I will confidently say that puts her in terms of knoweldge more than 99% of Hindus living in India.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com Shah Alam Khan

    Dear Mr. Kumar,
    Thanks for the remarks. Well, if you re-read my response instead of reminding me, I have already mentioned in my reply that Ayodhya is for Hindus what Mecca is for Muslims. In fact I re-read my own remarks and do not think that there is an analogy between the fakir/dargah and the Ram temple (unless of course someone tends to stretch his/her imagination to create one). Unfortunately I honestly feel that there would be more similar cases with this verdict as an epitome……something which time will tell. Let me give you another example (probably more appealing). Do you condemn the barbaric punishments in countries like Saudi Arabia (hand chopping, head chopping, etc)? As a secular Indian I totally condemn them. Ask a staunch Saudi mullah. His answer will be it’s my faith. In light of such judgements from secular judiciaries, can we hold any argument with them?
    Secondly I do not agree to your idea of a temple and a mosque together at Ayodhya. It can be at any other place but not Ayodhya. Ayodhya has an exclusive sanctity for the Hindus and the Muslims should see that this is maintained at all costs.
    It is being said that we should forget the past and move ahead. Agreed Vjiay ji but are the Sangh Parivar and its sympathisers ready to forget the past? I don’t think so. If that would have been the case, the zealots of Dec 6th would not have done what they did on that day……..it all happened because the BJP and its leaders kept the memory of an incompetent ruler (Babar) alive in the minds (rather hearts) of people it represented. Differential amnesia can be a tool to manipulate people but definitely not a solution to calm tempers.
    Finally, it is not the legacy of Ram which is in question; it is the heart of India’s secular judiciary which has been put to test. My forefathers did not migrate to Pakistan because they thought that their future would be better in a secular India than in an Islamic Pakistan….how correct they were. As I had written in an earlier blog, Vijay sahib secularism cannot be partial. Its like pregnancy- either you are or you are not. I again say what I have said earlier, the Ayodhya judgement is a document of political solution to the tangle not an objective legal deed.
    PS: Vijayji read a book called The Strange Alchemy of Life and Law by Justice Albie Sachs. It highlights the complexities of implementation of legal judgements on life as such. It is a good document to read in context of the Ayodhya judgement
    Truly,
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi

    [Reply]

    dev Reply:

    As a secular Indian, I dont see why the Sangh Parivar is any worse off than the majority of the muslims who insist on their own laws, issue fatwas, hate the other communities as much as they say the other comminites hate them. How glibly you say “In light of such judgements from secular judiciaries” – meaning that it has been accepted by all that this judgement is bad?? Babri is of absolutely no importance to muslims, other than to show Hindus that muslims still can be a pain in their lives. Earlier it was Babar who with his cruel might who did this, and now it is the present day muslims, who, by conniving with psecular entities like the Congress, or Mulayam, or the communists, or any number of those crooked hindu political parties, are making sure that they show their weight around.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    Dr. Shah,
    Well said. Actually, I feel the muslims are ok with the judgement. But just that the trouble mongers like Barkha dutt and outlook magazine are disappointed that no riots have taken place and they try to stoke them. Curious as to what you feel.
    As for Hindus, we would have been fine with any judgement. No need to involve RSS or BJP in this issue, since they are not the litigants nor the beneficiaries.
    Thanks

    [Reply]

    Pankaj Reply:

    Dr.Shah,
    Incidents like these worry the secularists all over india.
    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp?filename=Ne091010Coverstory.asp

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h.mani

    History is very cruel,sadistic,unfair,and often unjust,.to victor spoils,that is always the rule of thumb,it is not to say it is just or right.I have no doubt,if things were to repeat itself,the winners are going to be generous,may me less obviously callous,may disguise outrageous acts,but not much more.Humans are humans,act of murderous act is more routine than fair play,having said that,it does not mean we should not progress and refrain from horrible act of murder wanton destruction in the name of blind faith,many years ago,my classmate who just happens to be not of my faith,once said,Muslims should as an act of generosity gift the land,for both of us knew it was not used as a mujid’,it would have been an act of great wisdom and would have done a lot for muslims more than hindus.There is only one Ayodaya and only one Rama temple if there is to be temple for Rama,any where.Yes it is a Mecca for the Hindus,any non-sense it is myth is going to muddy the water,if an argument has to be made all religion are based more on myth than real facts,by very nature,it “THE FAITH’Stupid,nothing else.Nations are built on good will,by all reasoable people not by trouble makers.Thers no dearth of trouble makers in world,especially in U.P. and India.

    [Reply]

  • Rajeev Gupta

    Song by Louise Armstrong-

    I see trees of green, red roses too
    I see them bloom for me and you
    And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

    I see skies of blue and clouds of white
    The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
    And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

    The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky
    Are also on the faces of people going by
    I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do
    They’re really saying I love you.

    I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
    They’ll learn much more than I’ll never know
    And I think to myself what a wonderful world
    Yes I think to myself what a wonderful world.

    [Reply]

  • ch navakanta mishra

    i almost never worship at a temple although i am a ‘hindu’,and ask anyone,most of the educated class are the same,hindu,muslim,christian et all.i am not agnotist though.i like to interprete God as i please ,humanity is what counts is my opinion.& i was born in 1959.so you can well imagine the scenario with gen-x.but still,the sunni waqf board’s decision to go to supreme court etc strike me as illogical irresponsible nonsense.it would be a good step for the union government to pass laws so that——1-all religion related properties are taken over by government,sunni-board,jagannath temple trust etc are dissolved so thjat no small time disputes over property ever again escalates in to a national disaster & shame. 2-let the government build a temple & a mosque at the site,but let the priests be apointed taking in to consideration their scholarly achievements & academic qualifications etc.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    We have courts because we have differences of opinion.

    So its okay for people to disagree vehemently as long asno on takes the law in his or her hnd and the judgements of the curt are implemented.

    All partis should respect it and this aplies to any Supreme court judgement that may be pssed on the isue.

    There is no dearth of land in India or in Ayodhya itself to build as big a temple or mosque as anyone wants.

    The issue of punishing those who took part in 1982 damage to Babri structure is a seperate court case and almosr everyone would like to see the people who took part in causing the damege to be punised.

    However the biased, clueless and moronic section of the media has mixed up the issues.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Sam said:

    “Azhar…
    Do you think Congress should have insisted on ALL muslims leaving to Pakistan as part of 1947 partitiion ?
    that would have solved this problem in India.
    I salute pakistanis for cleansing all original religions from their Holy land..”

    No that would not solve your problem Sam, you will also need to get rid of Christians, Sikhs, your lower caste brother Dalits etc. where would you STOP.

    YOu are a typical nutcase Sam

    [Reply]

    ch navakanta mishra Reply:

    Azhar i agree whole heartedly with you.i know the muslims who stayed back in india despite being offered a separate homeland loved this country as well as any hindu.More so,because they did this despite the knwoledge that they were doing this by risking their life & the lives of their families.i know muslims have contributed so much for the developement of this country.the person loved by us all,A.P.J.Abdul Kalam is muslim.Moulana Ajad was muslim.Many muslims have sacrificed their precious lives to protect India during the wars fought with Pakistan.i,a hindu,would like to stay in such an India,which nourishes all its children with equal care & love.i assure you that most Indian citizens are not small minded as one or two would make it seem.i am ashamed to be identified with illogical small minded few who like to project themselves as sachha indians by hurting so many other people’s feelings.i recommend they read Kalam’s autobiography,’wings of fire’.in gist,i am a proud indian,whose country has almost equal muslim population as pakistan who are better off here than their kins in pakistan.india without muslims & sikhs is unimaginable.no one in his right mind would ask musalmans to leave this country since they have the same right to it as any hindu,sikh,budhist,jain,parsi & aborigins of this land,the adibasis.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >who stayed back in india despite being offered a separate homeland loved this country as well as any hindu

    Loved this country ?

    What a joke.
    89% of muslims in pre 1947 election voted for Muslim league which stood for 2 nation theory.

    Please explain..your basis..

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Sam,

    Even if these are Koranic statements, we would need to explain to the Muslims who believe in them that living in present times they have to move on. That is why I said confrontation is no solution.

    It would just lead to a war within. You need to explain to the guy who believes in backward thoughts that he is wrong. Mybe it is tough. But there is no other way. So confront the fundamantalist. That’s it.

    Anyway once you give women’s rights to a group there is no looking back. It is difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. I think India needs strong women’s rights for Muslim women. The state unfortunately floundered once. It has still not recovered.

    Sam Reply:

    How about

    Blaspheym
    Jizya
    Talak
    Multiple wives
    Apostasy
    Jihad (violent).
    Dhimmitude
    Religious apartheid (in makkah/medina)
    Nothing other than mosques…
    Right to own slaves (read Saudi law professors statement)..

    How do you explain all these medievel concepts in Islam.
    If you separate these from Islam, it is not true islam..

    The worst thing, is Koran is full of such stupid concepts and muslims believe it is the final word of Muslim God Allah and it cannot be changed..

    zam zam cola Reply:

    25% hindus just 1% now in Pakistan,what happened,they were converted under threat,thats the real face of Pakistanis and Islam that they preach.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Islam is the biggest problem for Vedic Civilization.
    Jinnah himself said, islam and Hindus are two different civilizations.

    So congress should have worked on asking islam to leave india

    Christianity was there in india, even before it was there in Rome.
    Sikh problem is basically instigated by Pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • cdpereira

    Each passing day sees growing confusion in our public life & values.Don’t we see, that this land saw the rise & fall of Kingdoms, Dynasties…But under the British Colonial Rule it emerged as a more coherent Nation.However, the Partition of India in 1947, essentially based on religious compulsions & mutual suspicion, perhaps was the biggest disaster of the 20th Century, even ahead of the Tibet crisis.When the rest of the world (at least the Western world), has evolved into separating State from Religion we need to follow that principle implicitly, even as our Constitution provides for it. Sadly, various pronouncements of prominent citizens have openly flouted the theme SECULAR embedded in the Constitution.The emergence of political parties based on religious sentiment takes us away from the goals our founding fathers had for India.IT IS PATRIOTIC TO BE SECULAR, anything else is less so!

    [Reply]

  • R.K.Malhotra

    God is the Sun and sunlight is composed of seven colours ,which amalgamate beautifully to form white light.Hindus have chosen the Yellow -Brown colour ,and The Muslims have chosen the Green as symbols of their worship.Let all stay together because the purpose is the worship of the creator ,the sustainer and the dissolver.Where is a conflict in this and why should should a conflict arise at all.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj

    Very curious to learn from pakistanis about the fate of hindus in pakistan. Then we can discuss about muslims in india. still listening…..

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Dear Pankaj,
    I have no quarrel with you blogging and expressing your views. I do not claim monopoly on this name Pankaj, but find it amusing and at times feel cheated because I have been writing in this blog earlier than you. Names have acquired a definite personality here in blog like, vijay Kumar, Azhar hussain, Dr. Anand etc. So instead of me requesting you to modify name, I am adding #1 to my name. Hope you will not mind.

    [Reply]

  • Jai Shri Ram

    Sharma – “Mythological” – ‘RAM’ Hindu ho ya Muslim. Its people like who are most irresponsible, shame on Journalism. People like you are disgusting, you should covert to Islam. You dont even deserve to be a Hindu. Coward

    [Reply]

  • Shiuli

    Ayodhya Verdict, will there be truce in matter of faith? Or the fight begins between pseudo seculars v/s believers.

    I think these are the questions taking shape in most of the people’s mind, after the verdict, and how media-men are using this ancient formula to formulate their TRP’s.
    From my point I just want to ask, one question, what kind of a solution would be best for both the religious believers living in India?

    Very soon the appeal will be made in Supreme Court and another three decades would be secured to development of India, that would be a respite for the governance. So that they can once again engage themselves in doing what the governance does the best! “Choosing not to choose”.

    Now for Supreme court the beginning years will be very smooth for the Judges in the panel, they will have relaxed vacations, mind boggling reads, one or two may come out with a book on historical facts and jurisprudence. Secure a second vocation for their retirement. Participate in end number of talk shows etc.

    The inevitable question is, Are Indian’s looking for a solution in matter of faith?
    If so, then there should be an amendment in the “Constitution of India” and the word “Secular” should be dropped, let India remain a sovereign republican democracy, where people can practice their respective faiths in their homes, and not make a spectacle of the respective belief. Because had India’s learned people known the meaning of “Secular” there wouldn’t have been further debates on the verdict.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Secularism is a joke played on Hindus in India.

    where is secularism, when muslims want separate religious rules.
    where is secularism, when muslims in india want to convert the whole of india to islam.
    where is secularism, when muslims in india are happy to have islamic pakistan and islamic B’desh.

    where is secularism, when muslims get money for arabic schools and Hajj
    and Hindus get nothing for sanskrit schools..

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Time for a comic interval :) :) :)

    When I saw the Pakistani delegation enter the CWG inaugural ceremony to a roaring applause I felt gr8

    And when I saw it being led by an oldish guy in his fifties I was amazed. I told my companion. “these Pakistanis have surely discovered the real shilajit or some youth formula that they have a weight lifting guy who looks to be in his sixties and has one a gold medal in the last CWG…..”

    Little was I to know that he had pushed the real hero to the side to come into the limelight…..:)

    What a joker…

    [Reply]

  • SKChadha

    Civilizations suggest that human started living near rivers for feeding animals (food security). Their belongings and the animals possessed by them were kept in enclosures and protected by force. This has resulted in inter-group revelries and clashes in which basically might were right. The possession and continued possession with force used to be once right. This continued possession, the marked physical boundaries and social development resulted in development of right of ownership.
    Therefore, in most of civilizations, possession is first right which is protected unless there is adverse unflinching proof of ownership. The land and building over it is immovable and hence people have different rights in it (e.g. possessory, ownership, tenurial, succession, lease hold, easement etc.). Different people may have different rights over the same land at a given time.
    Surprisingly, in India even today, there is no document which defines title to an immovable property and holding of all above rights in single person. The rights in and title to immovable property is derived from different documents produced before the courts.
    This is a classic dispute where title to land is not ascertainable and possessory right is with different parties. Moreover, with GOI acquiring the possession long back nobody hold even the possessory right to the land under limitation. Yes, people of different faith are enjoying easement rights to practice their faith over the land.
    One of the basic legal theory define law as ‘It is a will of the political superior imposed upon political inferior’. Surprisingly, all political superiors in India i.e. parliament, religious leaders, Hindu Mahasabha, VHP, Umma, Ullema, political parties rather than taking a reasonable decisions shirked their responsibility by putting burden over the Courts. I do not know how far it was correct? Even now, all of them shirking their responsibility for good human social order, taking issue to SC. It is a big joke.
    To my opinion, the history will not spare these bunches of jokers who come forward to lead the society and consider themselves as political superiors to guide the society. These jokers do not have minimum human sense equaling to the three Hon’ble Judges who have taken some reasonable decisions based on their conscious and considering the social order. Regards.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Azhar,

    When you say “We in Pakistan don’t live with hatred of anyone…”

    Cannot you see the obvious truth around you

    a) Despite driving most of the Sikhs and Hindus out of Pakistan, during partition, your countrymen still impose jaziya on them as well as behead them at the slightest pretext

    b) Christians are not allowed to preach and practice their religion and are hauled up for blasphemy at the slightest pretext

    c) Women are treated worse than what Dalits were treated once in India. A long time ago Dalits in India had a reason to complain. However through reservations and positive actions as well as reforms in the Hidnu mindset, they have won back thier rights and are now equal citizens.

    Unfortunately the position of women in Pakistan is worse. It is all right to say , “Aurat ka role, maa , behen aur biwi hai,” but it becomes a pretext for stoning her to death, in case she talks to a man. I notice Muslim girls in India are coming out of the purdah and doing well in jobs as well as citizens. Not as much as we would desire, but the movement has started. However in the few days I spent in Pakistan it was rare to see uncovered women on the roads. In fact women were absent, mostly, except on TV screens or in resturaunts.

    d) Did you noctice the one sided killings of Shias and Baluchis and the persistent violence by the Taliban s swell as sectarian hatred in Karachi with MOhajirs? Maybe you did not.

    So think about all this before you make a sweeping statement. It may be easy to reply with a cut and paste. And say India is bad also. But will it lead to a better understanding between all of us ?

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    @ Dr Khan,

    Thank you for the prompt reply. My basic position has always been that at the end of the day, this is a country, which can put up a model for the entire world to follow. We have a huge population which is multi-religious. Which are the other countries who have a similar mix?

    a) China which had a multireligious population chose to clamp down on ALL religions till recently, instead making Atheism and communism its state religion

    b) The former Soviet Union had it. Yet, once it allowed democratic and religious freedoms, it broke up.

    c) The US has it yet is now percieved as being pro-Christian and anti Muslim.

    d) The UK with a small population and small land area has a mix of population, though hugely Christian, but has problems between catholics and Protestents. And now a small Islamic terror threat.

    e) The arc from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan have chosen to declare themselves as Islamic, leaving little room for other religions to exist. But what has happened is “who is a better Muslim?” is the question which makes Shias, and Sunnis, Taliban and Wahabbis fight with each other.

    So it is India alone which can solve this problem of people of different religions living happily together. And it can only be done by mutual accomodation. That is why Ayodhaya should not have been allowed to flare up to this extent.

    For HIndus, this would be always a place as important as Mecca is for Muslims.

    For Muslims factually just a dead monument in which they did not pray for decades and decades. Yet in case it was unilaterally handed over to the HIndus, it would lead to a build up of a griviance of the state being pro-Hindu. So perhaps, as you had suggested, the Muslims could have handed it over.

    However in my view, if both a Temple and a mosque come up there is something exemplary about this.

    What is more important is fanatics and politicians who build up distances between communities should not come up again.

    In the end our secular values should win. Let each of have a right to practice one’s religion, yet not hurt each other.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Now really Vijay, so every crime committed in Pakistan is supported by rest of Pakistani…Now you are really talking like typical indian moron on this forum.

    With your theory, then Indians are also crimminals because:

    1) 80,000 killedin Kashmir
    2) Thousands of Sikhs killed
    3) Thousands of Muslims killed after Babri Masjid
    4) Thousands killed in the Gujrat spreee.

    “b) Christians are not allowed to preach and practice their religion and are hauled up for blasphemy at the slightest pretext”

    Where did you get this one from, not allowed to preach and practice their religion…I myself went to a Catholic School no one stopped them.

    You people should be the last ones talking about womens right.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    In one month in Bangladesh, Pakistanis killed five times more than all these figures totaled up.

    However…

    1) Those fifty thousand ( and not eighty) killed are because as Musharraf again gloated today, == because Palistan trained and created a terror situation using Kashmiris as canon fodder,

    b) In Punjab, your evil cobra of a general called Zia tried to create an insurgency. Unfortunately a moron called Mani Aiyar who was our counsel General in Pakistan at that time could not spot it. He probably spent his time cracking Gen Zia jokes.

    But…

    In the end Sikhs are too committed to Indian ideals. The movement broke up. And we now have a Sikh PM :) Indians love his honesty…

    c) The position of Christians in Pakistan? Maybe you will not notice as you read the Pakistani press which probably ignores them. Google search and see what u get…

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajiv I never denied that these shamefull acts never occured in Pakistan, you denied your misdeeds or mask them under the guise of self-rightiousness- here lies the difference.

    Now coming to Musharaf admitting….did guys aid the mukti banni in East Pakistan…..what goes around comes around

    Yesterday there was article which stated close to1,303,000 Iraqis being killed in Iraq, with biggest lie of the century of WMD’s and ofcourse all the non-muslims plus our turn coats amoung us have supported this act….Guess what Rajiv someone will pay the prices for this down the line.

    Sam Reply:

    80 Million hindus killed by Islam

    2 million Hindus killed by pakistanis in 1971..

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3572553.stm

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj

    25% hindus just 1% now in Pakistan,what happened,they were converted under threat,thats the real face of Pakistanis and Islam that they preach.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    Not sure I got your point.

    Is it that Pakistani’s are a bad lot. I am certain that there will be many here who would NOT dis-agree with that. I condemn all such violence and conversions.

    or

    Is it that because in Pakistan people are converting Hindus into Muslims or even killing them, then as retaliatory gesture we in India should start harassing Indian Muslims or even take more drastic actions? Then I am afraid you will find may people dis-agreeing, I would be the first.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @ Pankaj and Ravi

    Rajiv also keep raising the same question, and I aske him to provide documented evidence showing the reasons why these Hindus left Pakistan

    Were thosuands of Hindus killed?
    Were they all forced to leave Pakistan?

    The left Pakistan for the same reasons why my forefathers left India and this is a fact. Now when you get into numbers, obviously there were greater numbers left in India because of sheer numbers thats all, Not because of any other reasons.

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    @Usman

    Nice to know that your forefathers were from Jalandhar. Maybe one day we will visit it together whenever you come here! :)

    Whaz happening in Pakistan’? Sad to know that despite the warm reception given to the team at the CWG ( I was present there) , somehow it is not doing so well. Wish it would. Sports and games are such a unque method of channelising positive energy that the Taliban are against it.

    I think with some maturity Indians should be handle this judgement. Unfortunately we too have a very strong negative class in this country which sees votebank politics in everything for its own survival. Instead of weaning away the Muslims from a path of seclusion and backwardness, they further propel them along that path.

    Anyway, ALLAH and RAM willing, we will still remain a prosperous, happy country.

    Also want to know the Pakistani people’s reaction to Mussharaff’s confessions. Are they a) amazed that the truth has been revealed or b) Disppointed that the General hsa revealed something which is going to tarnish Pakistan’s image?

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Sports are a bit in turmoil these days because of national concerns on terrorism but has less to do at the hands of Taliban. Not to be surprised its a different ball game not to be confused to myopic or redical mindset of Taliban. Its a different inside story. Will talk later on it.

    Two things are prominent these days – Musharaf’s return to Pakistan and joining political race and other being Supreme court and parliaments clash over NRO. An ordinance brought in by Musharaf to pardon cases of corruption and exile against political and other dignitaries.

    People’s reaction is not all welcoming for Gen Musharaff i doubt if the fellow can bag few seats in next coming elections. He had although apologized to masses but still that came at a huge expense of tarnishing Pakistan’s image and inviting home terrorist threats.

    [Reply]

  • Younus

    Three judges representing three conflicting parties made up their minds by keeping aside all the legal documents presented by the parties that they will share the disputed land equally…..no more conflict and end to all mistrust. I think based on this our law colleges should throw all the law books into the indian ocean and start learning how to make ‘panchayat type faislas’ from now on……tum bhi khush aur hum bhi khush !!

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

    Hey Sam hundreds of thousands of your Indian fellow citizens living in MidEast, ask them if they would like to leave. And today of Saudi Arabia says you are free to come and work, you can be rest assured your country will be empty in time.

    No rape No robbery like you have in India

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    What about pakistan? There was an incident few years back when somebody played a prank declaring some fictitious country is accepting migrants without Visa. The maximum number of people who registered were pakistanis.

    Your country has become a hell hole. This is the exact reason why balochis are refusing to be your part anymore. I think India should incrementally increase its support to Balochi freedom movement. The cultured people of balochistan refuse to be trampled upon by punjabi mafias.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajeev thats exactly my point, people of any third world country would leave to better themselves. Your county is not a hell hole for the minorities. You forgot the war in your backyard, Kashmiris would love to leave you guys in heartbeat if given the chance.

    http://kashmirglobal.com/content/indian-atrocities-kashmir

    http://www.chowk.com/articles/5833

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    If muslims and British paid back all they have looted, india will be a very prosperous country.

    Remember the reason, why muslims and british came to india in the first place.

    Hindus became poor after jizya and british loot.

    Maybe Hindus should rape and pillage and loot the wealth of saudi arabia (just like muslims did)..

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Azhar
    you are talking as if you own Middle East? Indians are there because they are valued there for their work. Pakistanis are distrusted even in muslim countries. Sitting in west, you are advocating on behalf of Arabs, lost in the daydream of Ummah? How many times I have to say, wake up?
    hey, no body is jeering CWG from Pakistan. even, their famous columanists made fun of CWG, based on Indian papers Scrutiny. we have different standards. Pakistan can not hold even a decent kabbadi match.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Sam,

    If you equate Muslims with Pakistan, there can be only one conclusion. I need not elaborate on that. People on this blog are well aware of it.

    I know Pakistan leaders ( its military, ISI ) claim to be a ‘citadel of Islam’,
    ‘only nation created in the name of Islam ‘ etc.

    So to any common observor or an Indian, its hard to differentiate between Islam and Pakistan.

    However, we have to look upon Muslims , particularly Indian Muslims, as seperate from Pakistan.
    They are Indian citizens and it would unfair to load them with the baggage of Pakistan , irrespective of Pakistan’s declarations.

    That would help in more objective view of things.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >However, we have to look upon Muslims , particularly Indian Muslims, as seperate from Pakistan.

    Those are the same indian muslims who voted 86% to Jinnah’s two nation theory.
    and Jinnah won 89% of the seats.

    If Indian muslims did not vote for Jinnah, Jinnah would be a regional leader and just a thug in the history of india…

    [Reply]

    kiran Reply:

    SAM

    good reply to Rajiv
    ur turn now R

    i have always found ur comments not going all the way
    based on facts…and logic

    how can u make statements like indian muslims r diffrenert..

    the koran requires brotherhood of the ummah..

    the ims supprt arabs against isreal and usa

    they rioted over quran burning and saddam hanging ,bush visit ,fallweel remark
    in which hindus died

    and remeber they r all born in the same crucible of the indian subcontinent..

    drawing aline in 1947 does not change them

    they showed ther islamism when they overturned SC in shabano
    in 1986

    where have u been.. rajiv

    [Reply]

    Vijay Kumar Reply:

    Sam,

    You said. “If Indian muslims did not vote for Jinnah, Jinnah would be a regional leader and just a thug in the history of india…”

    But the fact is, 63 years later dont we feel better that one part which believed in a theocratic state is no longer with us? And Pakistanis too feel better that they have the freedom to kill each other all the time ? :) :)

    Cmon brother!! :) We need to grow out of equating ourselves with Pakistan. If it wants to be friendly … fine. let us be friends.

    In fact let us try to create a set of people out there who realise that friendship with India is in their interest.

    However, we just need to equip ourselves to fight it, if need be. Or foment problems out there, in case it does so in India. In case it creates noise in Jammu,Ladakh and Kashmir, let us first tri-furcate and then return the compliment in Baluchistan.

    Thapad ka jawaab, do thapaad. — a slap returned with two slaps back.

    The fact remains that we cannot wish it away.

    In such a scenario, Indian Muslims should be our foremost citizens in this battle. Already Pakistan is trying to make them revolt against our pluralistic democracy. We have to win back the few who have meandered.

    And think ourselves big in terms of China, USA and the EU.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Indian muslims role in creation of pakistan is real..

    it cannot be denied in the history…

    after 86% of them asked for 2 nation, why didn’t 86% of them leave to Pakistan ?

    the rest of the 14% can live in india..

    amrita Reply:

    god save india from people like V K

    ON THE ONE HAND HE SAYS THat india gained by muslims leaving…

    and then contradicts just to sound nice for reamining muslims..

    the facts is 40 % land was given to islam just like that…probably the only islamic conquest
    in 20 th cnetury without resistance…

    and worse the secular scoundrels could not even divide land as per the agreement equally
    and fairly…muslims were allowed to ssaty behind and pass shahbano 40 years later

    and kashmir was cleansed too by muslims

    hey vk waht were the kashmiri muslims….were they not indian..

    just because u cant think or analyse logically based on facts
    like sams about 90 % wanting pakistan…

    u post here just because it allows u to show off and look nice…

    so called moderate ignorant peole like u r worse because u r like an enemy within…

    and still this vk is singing romantic songs…

    and all sam is doing is following facts to judge the consisten behaviour of islam in
    the 13 centuries since founding..

    even tiny cyprus was divided into greek and turkish
    evenly and logically..

    only india cand do this because of secular jaichnads in 1947…
    and this wishy washy vk is no different because his comments confuse and mislead..

    even akid knows how to divide a cookie…

  • http://- Rajeev

    http://dailypioneer.com/287874/Verdict-nails-‘secular’-lies.html
    Verdict nails ‘secular’ lies
    October 06, 2010 1:03:06 AM

    S Gurumurthy

    Justice Sudhir Agarwal’s judgement, running into 5,200 pages, makes two important points: A temple existed at the disputed site in Ayodhya and it was destroyed to build the Babri mosque. This puts to rest the assertion by ‘secular’ historians that temples were never destroyed by invaders from the west to subjugate the people of this land

    The best part of the Ayodhya verdict is the judgement of Justice Sudhir Agarwal. Though a huge affair running to over 5,200 pages, his is one of the most organised and best-written judgements. One has to look at only the index he has provided in Volume 21 of the judgement to get to what one wants — whether it is to know what the decision was on any of the issues, or to search for any documentary evidence or oral testimony used or any case law considered. Any reasonably skilled reader of legal document may use the index as the key to unravel the judgement in a couple of days, which might otherwise take a fortnight.

    It must have taken Justice Agarwal long periods of stress and labour to produce such wonderful judicial document. And more, to maintain confidentiality, he must have done lot of the work himself. Also for writing the main judgement, he has analysed minutely all the evidence, documentary, oral and technical, himself; so that the other judgements just supplement his where there is agreement. But for his huge effort, it would be extremely difficult to unravel the Ayodhya verdict. If Justice SU Khan could write his “very short” judgement it is thanks to Justice Agarwal writing a very long one.

    The Ayodhya verdict is not just a legal affair. It discusses, frankly but with sensitivity, the Hindu-Muslim interface based on historical facts. It also touches upon history, archaeology, sociology, religion and related disciplines. A reading of the verdict will reveal its reach and depth. So, the nation must be grateful to the judges, particularly Justice Agarwal, for their stupendous work. The criticality of Justice Agarwal’s judgement, in the overall Ayodhya verdict, is manifest in that, virtually that what he has said has turned out to be the final verdict. It is because, with Justice Dharam Veer Sharma and Justice Khan taking almost divergent positions, to the extent Justice Agarwal agreed with either of them on any issue, his views became the final view on that issue. Just see the effect of his view on the most sensitive issue in the Ayodhya case, namely: Was a pre-existing Hindu temple destroyed to make way for the mosque?

    Even though he agrees that a massive broken Hindu structure was found under the mosque, Justice Khan does not agree that any Hindu structure was demolished to build the disputed mosque. But Justice Sharma is firm that a Hindu temple was indeed demolished to build the mosque. Justice Agarwal analyses the evidence over some 900 pages and after holding that a Hindu temple predated the mosque at the spot, he says, on evidence, that “it can safely be said that the erstwhile structure was a Hindu temple and it was demolished, whereafter the disputed structure was raised”. This makes it the court’s view. But, having held that a Hindu temple existed before the mosque was constructed, Justice Agarwal was not keen to pursue the demolition issue. But he does. Why? Read on.

    He was compelled to do so by the lies of the experts relied on by the Muslim parties. Prefacing that, for the purposes of the case, it was “sufficient” to stop at finding “that the mosque had been raised” on a pre-existing “massive temple”, Justice Agarwal writes, “It would not have been necessary to tell positively that there existed a massive temple structure, which was demolished and thereafter the disputed structure was raised.” He then explains why then did he do that thus: The statement of so many experts appearing on behalf of the plaintiffs (Sunni Waqf Board) asserting that “temples in past were never demolished by the then Muslim Rulers or invaders from Persia etc, is so blatant a lie” that he was “reluctant to ignore it without referring to some well known historical” accounts of the demolition of Hindu temples, some “written by Muslim writers themselves”. After that only, considering the massive evidence about destruction of temples, including at Ayodhya, Justice Agarwal concluded that a Hindu temple was indeed destroyed to build the mosque. Yet the visual media had kept on insisting throughout September 30 that the court had indeed held that “no temple was destroyed to build the mosque”.

    The critical evidence that became one of the most contentious issues between the Hindu parties and the Muslims parties in the court was the Archaeological Survey of India Report which established that a massive structure “indicative of the remains which are distinctive features” of “the temples of north India” exsited under the mosque. The first point to note was that the ASI was brought by the High Court on its own in 2002, not by any party or the Government. The ASI did the GPRS survey and excavation under the High Court’s orders and under supervision by two judicial officers appointed by the court, in the presence of the counsel for the parties.

    But the most disgusting part of this critical exercise, the importance of which to the case is brilliantly captured by Justice Agarwal, was the way the Muslim parties attacked the ASI work in the court, including on the ground that the BJP was ruling then, and that the ASI team did not include sufficient number of Muslims in the excavation work. This led to the court chiding them for suffixing experts with “Muslim”, “Hindu” or “Christian”. But now, after the verdict, the secularists are attacking the High Court for relying on the ASI’s report almost in the same language in which the Muslim parties had attacked the ASI prior to the verdict!

    [Reply]

  • http://yahoo farid

    ———– what is the difference between judgment of a court— here HIGH COURT———
    ———————- AND——————————————–
    the settlement or amicable settlement proposals of VILLAGE [ PANCHAYET.] COURT.

    SUPPORTERS OF RAVAN BELIEVE——HE WAS TREACHEROUSLY KILLED———-
    HIS RELIGION AND COUNTRY WAS DESTROYED — RUTHLESSLY.IF THE SUPPORTERS WANT TRIAL— OF ————–WHAT VERDICT WILL COME FROM THE SAME COURT ?

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    Any verdict which does not lead to violence in sensitive issue such as religion is more than welcome, be it from High court or village panchayat.

    [Reply]

    farid Reply:

    — question is—— NOT —to welcome OR not to welcome——-
    ———this sort of order or proposals are appropriate for a despot,feudal lord, ancient rulers—village panchayat—-not appropriate for a modern day court of law.

    THIS COULD HAVE BEEN DONE OUTSIDE THE COURT.

    EVEN AN EXECUTIVE ORDER BACKED BY PARLIAMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER.

    IT WILL BE A BAD EXAMPLE………….
    .
    THIS WILL BRING COMPLICATIONS IN JUDICIARY IN FUTURE.

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    This is an extraordinary case, it warrants new set of legal principles which have not been tried before. Both parties were incapable to solve the case themselves. The verdict may not be legally tight, but at least it took the fodder away from political canon of various parties who would have otherwise used it to whip up passions. The court took almost 2 decades to come with a judgement, surely they must have considered many aspects.

    There is no doubt that Muslims would be taking the decision with heavy heart. However, they have been gracious in their conduct after the decision and therefore risen in the eyes of many Hindus. The only people who have come out loosers in this case are the english speaking pseudo secularists who sit in NDTV, IBN studios.

    farid Reply:

    @Kushagra

    thanks.

    farid Reply:

    ———- A FICTIONAL APPROACH————
    I BELIEVE YOU BUILT YOUR HOUSE ON MY ANCESTRAL PROPERTY. I HAVE NO DOCUMENTS ——-
    IF I GO TO COURT AND CLAIM THE PROPERTY—–
    WILL THE COURT GIVE ME FULL OR A PART OF THE PROPERTY TO ME

    ———WHETHER THE COURT IS GUIDED BY LAW OR IT IS ABOVE THE LAW?

    APPROACH TOWARDS SETTLEMENT IS GOOD .
    BUT THE PROCEDURE IS BAD ————TOO BAD.

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    It also depends upon how you look at it. If you consider this merely an ordinary case between two individuals’s dispute over a property the judgement falls short. Now if it is just an ordinary case between two individuals then why you and me are so interested in the case? why is entire India is so interested in an ordinary dispute between two individuals? There are many civil cases in India over property disputes why don’t you and I and rest of Indians follow each and every case? You have a particular interest in this case because of your ‘religious faith’, not just yours’ but millions and millions of people from both community are following the case because of the very same reason ‘ faith’ and thats what makes it very different from all the cases. Don’t you think given that you are so startled by the judgement, what would have happened if one side was declared clear winner and the other clear looser? It is an exceptional case which has potential to destroy the social fabric of India and therefore requires exceptional judgement with a degree of benovelence towards all. India is not burning thanks to this judgement.

    farid Reply:

    @KUSHAGRA
    ——– Brother–you have misunderstood me——–
    The spirit is good and I appreciate the motive.
    My question is whether COURT can over rule the ACT OF PARLIAMENT.
    If a judicial commision — proposed this sort of recommendation—-executive branch accepts the same—— implements the same——-no problem –in that case.
    My point is —-JUDICIARY —-also guided by law—- in this case judiciary failed to act as per law of the land——

    [Reply]

    Kushagra Reply:

    Yes, I agree with you, the court did not pronounce the judgement under the parameters of law. It crossed its domain.

    farid Reply:

    @KUSHAGRA

    THANKS—–LET US HOPE FOR THE BEST.

  • Vinay

    “The High Court verdict on the Temple-Mosque question hasn’t received thumbs up from legal experts, jurists and historians. They’ve slammed it for placing belief above jurisprudence to declare a portion of the disputed land as the birthplace of Lord Rama.”

    Looks like the muslims in India are not feeling as bad about the verdict as these “secular” politicians and journos. They are okay with it, but these people are not letting them to be.

    “Ayodhya is the birth place of Ram” is the opinion/faith of one judge, not the final draft of the verdict combined by the 3 judges. Everybody is entitled to have their opinions/faith be it a politician, journalist or a judge. We don’t need to honor every individual word spread over thousands of pages in the verdict. We only need to honor its final allocation of land.

    If we consider “faith” alone, all the land should have been given to Hindus. If we consider it just as a land dispute, then; all the judges have agreed there was temple before the masjid (irrespective of whether Ram existed or not whether he was born there or not). Obviously, the land was not bought from Hindus (or was not donated by Hindus to build the masjid), so it becomes an illegal structure. There is no law, if an illegal building stays for a long time, the property becomes legal. So Hindus would still own the land. Muslims also get a share in the land because, when the temple was built these muslims were Hindus. Our law allows daughters to inherit property after marriage. In the similar way, indian muslims (even after conversion) do become owners of this piece of land. (with the same logic, even Christians will be title holders. But as they have not claimed the property, it has to be distributed between the disputing parties according to their proportional representation). So, the decision is fair.

    The dispute in the court was only for ownership of the land and NOT on any structure(/building) in the land. It is unfair to criticize the verdict as if it has legitimized Babri Masjid demolition. Babri masjid is a separate case, which is beyond its jurisdiction.

    I don’t aprove Dr. Khan’s opinion of no mosque in Ayodhya. I feel, a grand mosque HAS TO BE BUILT IN AYODHYA by Hindus to demonstrate tolerance of Hinduism. A huge temple and and a grand mosque could bring tourism industry and related jobs to people of Ayodhya, like Somnath. (End of the day, all that people want is basic amenities and job).

    As far as the construction of Mandir, I feel there is no need to hurry, even if the other party doesn’t appeal to supreme court. Hindus have waited for so long, they can wait for a decade more. Who knows, proper excavation of the land by non biased archaeologists, can provide some interesting facts about our history which we may not be aware of. Most of the time, our knowledge in ancient history is poor. Some support (at least our text books) the Aryan invasion theory but some disagree. Nothing is clear. For us, history and mythology are mixed and is difficult to decode. Story behind Diwali is different for north and South Indians. Why is it symbol of Ram’s victory in north of India and why is it celebrated as a day wherein an oppressed ruler (Bali), visits (rather permitted to visit) his citizens on that day in the year (Bali Paadya) for south India? It is claimed that during Babri Masjid demolition time, three inscriptions on stone were found, one of them states “the temple was dedicated to Vishnu, slayer of Bali and of the ten-headed one” Our mythologies are mystique. Ramayana is the most ancient epic in India. The excavation in temple site obviously can’t quench all our curiosities. But whatever little we could have known, will be blocked by immediate construction of a temple. Once the temple is built, there is no way we can bring it down, so whatever history it has with it will be buried for ever. Better to delay the construction or build it somewhere, leaving the place for archaeologists.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    what is the legal basis on which sunni muslims got 1/3 of the land ?

    please explain..

    [Reply]

  • Kushagra

    This particular write up is meant for exchange of ideas on Ayodhya, why is India and Pakistan figuring repeatedly over here?

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Kushagra

    Bad mouthing Pakistan and Islam is become an habit of the most on this forum…..Moderator should take control…

    Check all the topics, most peoples obsession on this forum eventully leads to discussion on Pakistan and Islam over and over again.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >Bad mouthing Pakistan and Islam is become an habit of the most on this forum

    Wonder why ??

    why dont Indians bad mouth Myanmar and Buddishts ?

    Whole world is sick of islamic terrorists and jihadists..in case you do not know it yet..

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    As long as murder of Muslims continues in Kashmir, Palestine and other places, I am afraid you SAM will always have to look behind your back. You STOP the killing, then you can feel save, ok SAM.

    Busddists have left your country and Myanmar are busy solving their own issues.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    “Busddists have left your country and Myanmar are busy solving their own issues.”

    You made my day :)

    Sam Reply:

    if all muslims left to saudi arabia,

    there will be peace in the rest of the world.

    no more islamic jihadist attacks ..

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @SAM

    Try having your compatriot’s move back MidEast to India and see what they say.

    Those Muslim countries can and are providing what your country can’t. I think you should shut up and stop blaming and bitching about Muslims until your country can provide comparable standard of living. Be greatful to those Muslims.

    Sam Reply:

    >Those Muslim countries can and are providing what your country can’t.

    muslim’s did nothing to create petrol based wealth.
    West with emphasis on science brought technology and created wealth in the desert.

    India imports 75% of crude oil.
    There is more wealth taken out of india, than what some meager indians earn in gulf.

    if this was medieval times, poor hindus should attack saudi and loot the wealth
    (like muslims did to Hindu India)..

  • Kushagra

    Since religion is the flavour of the month, it would make a fascinating reading if and when Sharmaji gets interested to put forward his views on Zakir Naik’s concepts of different religions.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    In the end a judgement is out. let us really move on from here.

    Unfortunately we Indians suffer from STATIC PARALYSIS :)

    We need to keep debating and debating. Yet remaining static. That is what most TV debates are about; and most newspaper analysis about. Keep houting, keep fighting, keep screaming. Everyone needs 15 minutes of fame on the TV. So take an opposing view. Who cares if the matter remains deadlocked.

    Hopefully this will not happen here, The movement in this country only occured when the private sector started moving WITHOUT government help. Maybe we need to take this approach.

    So even if the “DUMBLECTUALS ” (dumb people who claim they are intellectual) want another debate to follow let us just remember the primary facts and move forward. These facts remain

    a) Some historical Hindu religious building existed at the site in Ayodhaya

    b) Ayodhaya has always been considered the birth place of Ram in the Hindu conscious. Just as the Aska mosque in Jeruslam is thought by Muslims to be the place where the prophet Mohamad descended from heaven.

    c) In the time of Babur who came from Samarkand in central Asia, a lot of “pagans and Hindis” were killed. I read it in Baburnama which has been dictated by Babur himself.. So no doubts on this. Probably a mosque came over this place. Did he own the place as an invader? nobody can answer that question dispassionately

    Well we also have to view those killings dispassionately now as that is history and let those conversions not cause any anger now. Ultimately most of the poeple who became Muslims were originally from India. The invaders too “married” local women. So thier produce (children) too were 50% Indian. The percentage increasing with every passing generation.

    d) A gazette record of 1850 kept by the British records that the place is unique since both communities worshipped there. A Sita rasoi and a chabootra existed.

    e) 1n 1949, idols of Ram were p[laced inside this structure.

    So is’nt it obvious to all, that

    i) This place is of utmost importance to Hindus as Mecca is to Muslims. Since Ram is the diety around which so much of Hinduism is built

    ii) That neither did Babur have a lease over it neither do the Hindus. It is a case of joint possession. Babar’s men snatched it from the original owners. Then later probably in the 1700 or so, Hindus also prayed there.

    iii) For Muslims it is just another of those countless dead structures dotting the Indian landscape, really of no particular importance.

    iV) In case they were to willingly hand it to the HIndus fine. Otherwise the state cannot be seen to take it form one religion and give to the other.

    So it is in the light of all this, the Judgement is immaculate !! Let it rule.

    Idiots like Rajeev Dhawan who puts in a false British voice is wrong, calling it a fight for a title suit. Show me the lease Babar made and then I will call it a fight for a title suit…. :)

    [Reply]

  • B.V.SHENOY

    Dear Shri Vinod Sharma,

    Like all your fellow secualrs, you too have attacked the judgement as being bad in law and constitution (how?), being based on faith than law, being panchayati etc.etc. But, you have seen a window through which some rays of hope for a reonciliation are passing, which is why cleverly you say, ‘I support it for its political content’. But, have you seen/read what is being dished out in the media, including your own?

    Dileep Padgaonkar, the high priest of pseudo secular journalism condemns the judges as brazen, for recognising Ram Lalla as a party to the litigation, while himself being totally ignorant of the correct legal position that even the supreme court has accepted and ruled in favour of the presideing deities in Kashi and elsewhere.

    The same goes for the ASI, a constitutionally established organisation belonging to the nation, which is being pillaried for giving a “Hindu report”, conveniently hiding the fact that all through the ASI excavations, the opposing lawyers and court officials were present, who included Muslims.

    All the three judges agreed that the mosque was constructed on the ruins of an existing, large Hindu temple, but carefully, very calculatedly, the Hindu judges on the bench and particularly Shri Sharma, are being attacked for calling a spade a spade. Nobody, including our dear Vinod Sharma is speaking about that part of the verdict of Sharma in which he said that since the mosque was built by destroying a place of worship belonging to a non-Muslim faith, it violates the Islamic tenet for a mosque and as such the demolished structure is NOT A MOSQUE. Muslims, too, understandably, are quiet on this most important aspect of Islam!

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    These false secularists get away with murders. They want to belittle every one except for fellow band members of Chalis chor. Few decades back, Hindu rate of growth was very popular in that circle, conveniently ignoring, the killing license raj, with its structure of patronage and corruption. These same hindus are now in the forefront of international economy, and no body is using again :Hindu rate of Growth:?

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h.mani

    Islam is not only a religion,it is political,cultural,social,personnel,and a economic and also legal guide line to it.There is no pick and choose for believers,it is complete package,take it once ,one way traffic ,can not leave,there is punishment apostasy,punishable by beheading.I have no bone to pick with the
    BELIEVERS”,it is your choice you live with it.What gets my goat is when Islamist and its camp followers misrepresent clear writings of “QURAN’,the Haddits and Sharia laws to make it palatable to west,gullible people with clear intention to mislead ..Quran is one of the most crystal clear text with no ifs and buts,and the true follower knows exactly what the Book says and orders.The followers have done a great P.R. work to lead or mislead the common folks who are not ‘Believers’It is only the coming of p.c. and internet and goggle that most westerns have truly know what Islam is all about.From now onwards Islam is not going to have smooth sailing,It is peaceful,tolerant and harmony,equality for woman will be questioned and very well may be studied and in some case exposed,its inherent contradiction can not be explained away,there are now books available where sura by sura of text is marked and expanded in detail,that is why Sunni sect will be more difficult to defend and sufism is going to be more popular in future.and the I’m more inclined to believe whatever reform in future it will be led by Moderate Enlightened Indian muslims and in the West,but for that to happen,there can not be opportunist leaders in India who for staying in power ****** the progress of moderate muslims everywhere.Islam faces road block within itself without non muslims ******** them more.That is why “Ayodaya if handled right can be a watershed beginning.I have no use for people who take side on rank ideology,then we turn into partition folks who have their own axe to grind,we know what this leads to/ .

    [Reply]

  • Vinay

    29th September :
    Govt and media (journalists) appeal to people of the country to remain calm despite of the verdict.

    30th September :
    Verdict delivered, whole country including Ayodhya remains calm. There is no celebration in Hindu, no mourning in Muslim homes. (Of course, not because of these people’s calls.)

    1st October :
    Mr Mulayam hits out at the judgment saying “The verdict appears to be have been given more on the basis of faith and belief rather than on the basis of legalities and evidence”. This sentiment is shared by many secular journos and some muslim social activists started to voice their opinions like, “verdict has made them feel like second-class citizens”.

    Surprisingly, none of us found that sort of feeling among muslim community around us (including blogs. Forget Dr.Shah Alam Khan, even Azhar was okay with the Mandir).

    Same day, Bihar’s ruling JD-U gives assembly ticket to the daughter of diplomat-turned-politician Syed Shahabuddin. Shahabuddin, termed the verdict as extra-legal based on myths and legends and not on evidence on record.

    (The same person, on 15 June 1989, had distributed a signed statement to the press in which he had said. “…But the Hindu chauvinists are totally confused about their own case… Whatever the Hindu chauvinist case, the Muslim community has, without any legal obligation, offered, as a moral gesture, to demolish the Babri Masjid — if it is proved that a temple stood on the site of the Babri Masjid …)
    Now his stand : Even if the Babri Masjid was built after demolishing a standing Mandir, then the Judgment ignores the universal law of Adverse Possession which creates a right in favor of the Muslims while no right is created in favor of the Hindus by the ‘illegal and surreptitious’ introduction of Ram lala in the inner courtyard on 22-23 December 1949 because it was immediately challenged by the authorities.)

    3rd October:
    90 yr old Mohammed Hashim Ansari – who has fought legal battles since 1961 for the land, try to negotiate with prominent Hindu Seer on the lines of the verdict. Head of the Nirmohi Akhara, Mahant Bhaskar Das too, was willing for negotiations. Sharad Sharma, VHP’s UP spokesperson, says, “It’s high time that people on both sides stop listening to their lawyers.”

    5th October :
    Sunni Waqf Board decides to moves to SC over the issue and board chief Farooqui says “I am the sole spokesman of this board and nobody other than me is authorized to speak on behalf of this organization.”
    Nirmohi Akhara joins cause with VHP saying it is ready to help with construction of Ram Temple.

    6th October :
    Ansari alleges people are plotting to kill him when he started to speak about peace and says he is deeply hurt by the words of lawyer for the wakf board Jilani.
    Lastly VHP lays claim to entire 67-acre plot, for Mandir.
    ———-
    Who is widening the wedge between Hindus and Muslims? I wrongly thought, it is the extremist religious leaders on both sides. It is rather the “secular” politicians and media which plant separation seeds. Religious leaders will only water it later. Also who are these people, taking muslim community (like Ansari) as hostages? (One of his earlier interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_Nnf0Qprg )

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    In my opinion , ay person, claiming to speak on behalf of any community, is a fraud and a criminal and should be put in prison.

    No individual, who ever he may be, can speak in behalf of all Hindus , Muslims , Sikhs or Christians.

    There should be laws to shoot any person who lays claims to such flagrant claim.

    Who the hell is Mulayam or any one else to speak on behalf of all persons in any community ?
    Why does the media not expose such self-evidently fraudulent claims by any individul of ay comunity ?

    [Reply]

    Dr.G.Srinivasan Reply:

    On the same lines how can a constitution which was based on the british representative democracy and voted for by a few representatives none of whom ever had tasted what was democracy all about be legitimate? If any referendum were to be held in 1950 and if people had chosen a presidential form of government there will atleast be one person who had fought an election on the national level and gained majority of the votes!!! Today we had so many of the PMs who fight shy of elections than fighting anfd winning we have a PM who entered the PM’s office with the blessings of a single person AICC chairperson.If Sonia were not to approve of MMS could he have become a PM and stasyed on as one? So it was not the people who elected the PM it was under the diktats of Sonia he came into being in the name of democracy!!!! Can he speak of on behalf of all indians?

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    IWe have move on from here.!! And not remain in STATIC PARALYSIS

    Most debates on this issue are about shouting and screaming. . Everyone needs 15 minutes of fame on the TV. So take an opposing view. Who cares if the matter remains deadlocked.

    Let me go thru the facts once again

    a) Ayodhaya has always been considered the birth place of Ram in the Hindu conscious. Just as the Aska mosque in Jeruslam is thought by Muslims to be the place where the prophet Mohamad descended from heaven.

    b) In the time of Babur who came from Samarkand in central Asia, a lot of “pagans and Hindis” were killed. I read it in Baburnama which has been dictated by Babur himself. Probably a mosque came over this place. Did he own the place as an invader? nobody can answer that question dispassionately

    Well we also have to view those killings dispassionately now as that is history and let those conversions not cause any anger now. Ultimately most of the poeple who became Muslims were originally from India. The invaders too “married” local women. So thier produce (children) too were 50% Indian. The percentage increasing with every passing generation.

    c) A gazette record of 1850 kept by the British records that the place is unique since both communities worshipped there. A Sita rasoi and a chabootra existed.

    d) 1n 1949, idols of Ram were p[laced inside this structure.

    So is’nt it obvious to all, that

    i) This place is of utmost importance to Hindus as Mecca is to Muslims. Since Ram is the diety around which so much of Hinduism is built

    ii) That neither did Babur have a lease over it neither do the Hindus. It is a case of joint possession. Babar’s men snatched it from the original owners. Then later probably in the 1700 or so, Hindus also prayed there.

    iii) For Muslims it is just another of those countless dead structures dotting the Indian landscape, really of no particular importance.

    iV) In case they were to willingly hand it to the HIndus fine. Otherwise the state cannot be seen to take it form one religion and give to the other.

    So it is in the light of all this, the Judgement is immaculate !! Let it rule.

    Idiots like Rajeev Dhawan who puts in a false British voice is wrong, calling it a fight for a title suit. Show me the lease Babar made and then I will call it a fight for a title suit….

    [Reply]

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Vijay,

    You said:
    i) This place is of utmost importance to Hindus as Mecca is to Muslims. Since Ram is the diety around which so much of Hinduism is built

    It reveals from your writing that the place had importance from time immemorial, long before any muslim invader stepped in mainland Indian peninsula. From the time when Babur demolished Ram mandir to 1949 (little indication to me that the placed need to be owned back by hindus) why didn’t we witness any claim by Hindus that this is Mecca for us? It seems like it was only realized off lately and within the time period of three centuries no one stood up to reclaim or raise its voice that this is hindus’ birth right rather than for someone else.

    Could you enlighten me, I’m little grey over the subject and back in 1992 i was barely six when the incident of demolition happened.

    Thanks,
    Usman

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Usman, you can lok this up in Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_debate

    There is some mischivious propoganda going around saying the dispute started in 1949.

    The truth is very different

    During the 19th century, the Hindus in Ayodhya were recorded as continuing a tradition of worshiping Rama on the Ramkot hill. According to British sources, Hindus and Muslims from the Faizabad area worshiped together in the Babri Mosque complex in the 19th century until about 1855. P. Carnegy wrote in 1870:

    “It is said that up to that time, the Hindus and Mohamedans alike used to worship in the mosque-temple. Since the British rule a railing has been put up to prevent dispute, within which, in the mosque the Mohamedans pray, while outside the fence the Hindus have raised a platform on which they make their offerings.”[14]
    This platform was outside the disputed structure but within its precincts.

    In 1858, the Muazzin of the Babri Mosque said in a petition to the British government that the courtyard had been used by Hindus for hundreds of years[citation needed].

    [edit] The Mahant Ram case
    In 1885, Mahant Raghubar Ram moved the courts for permission to erect a temple just outside the Babri Mosque premises. Despite validating the claim of the petitioner, the Faizabad District Judge dismissed the case, citing the passage of time.[15] On 18 March 1886, the judge passed an order in which he wrote:

    I visited the land in dispute yesterday in the presence of all parties. I found that the Masjid built by Emperor Babur stands on the border of Ayodhya, that is to say, to the west and south it is clear of habitations. It is most unfortunate that a Masjid should have been built on land specially held sacred by the Hindus, but as that event occurred 356 years ago, it is too late now to agree with the grievances. (Court verdict by Col. F.E.A. Chamier, District Judge, Faizabad (1886)[16]

    ………………………

    So this is not a new dispute manufactured in 1949.

    [Reply]

    Khan Reply:

    @ Vijay,

    Reg your views:
    “In the time of Babur who came from Samarkand in central Asia, a lot of “pagans and Hindis” were killed.”
    – Your observation is half complete. The other part is, Babur also killed a lot of Muslims including Ibrahim Lodi to gain power. In fact he killed any one – both Muslims and Hindus, who opposed him. Please read the Baburnama again and record the number of Muslims killed by him, if you have missed this. He also writes many times about sparing civilians and their properties after winning wars.

    “Did he own the place as an invader? Well we also have to view those killings dispassionately now as that is history and let those conversions not cause any anger now. Ultimately most of the poeple who became Muslims were originally from India. The invaders too “married” local women. So thier produce (children) too were 50% Indian.”
    – Babur lived in an age when might was right. So did the Marathas and other “Hindu” rulers who raided provinces beyond their own. What do should Kannadigas do with descendants of these Marathas, now living in for example the erstwhile Mysore state? What about their properties?

    Please note that the practise of pillaging religious structures was never a copyright of rulers practising Islam. There are many Buddhist and Jain temples across India that have been destroyed to build Hindu temples. Then there were ones like Persuram Bhau, whose Maratha army plundered and burnt one of the holiest of Hindu temples, at Sringeri, in 1791. Eventually it took Tipu Sultan, a Muslim ruler, whom the Sanghis (Sangh ideology followers) never loose an opportunity to call anti-Hindu, to rebuild the temple and physically protect it from further attacks.

    The question is not whether a mosque was built over a religious structure belonging to another religion many hundred years ago. The question is how far will you go to reverse history and will you also look into your past to undo the injustices meted out by rulers of your faith to non-Muslim minorities like Buddhists?

    Those who don’t learn from History are racing to be part of history. We all need to learn a few lessons from the Balkans. And India is probably 25 times bigger than the former Yugoslavia.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    I cannot find a single individual who can speak on behalf of all Indians or punjabis or all Assamese or all Hindus or Muslims or Christians or Jains , who may participate in this blog.
    Eachof us have our own wisdom and reasoning, which is unique.

    Then how come we have known criminals and politicians, from Imams to Mulayam to Bhakts claiming to speak on bahalf of millions , each of whom have there own wisdom and reasoning ?

    We need to end this corrupt business of individuals, particularly propogandist politicians or religious office holders from caiming to speak on behalf of anyone.
    They just speak for themselves in persuit o their individual desires and goals.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    @Usman;
    yes, you seems to be one who does not froth at mouth every time you speak. I do not understand that why hindus, who were totally subjugated by Moguls, kept on saying that their places of worship are being usurped by Muslims? it is only powerful, who can ride roughshod over weaks.Apart from Ayodhya, Kashi vishwnath mandir and Krishna temple in Mathura have huge mosques, which you can see, even while travelling by train. So don’t you think that it is bizzare, that Hindus always were crazy enough to challenge mighty moguls by claiming that their places of worship are being demolished and being replaced by Moguls to establish their superiority. To me, it is apparent that only this is possible that powerful moguls were emphasising their military superiority by crushing hindu culture and religion. But that was in past and no body is asking to remove the mosques at Kashi and Mathura. Why Muslims can not graciously vacate Ayodhya temple site and let hindus have an iota of self esteem. This will go a long way to foster goodwill between these two communities, who live like cheek by jowel.
    There are people, who want to perpetuate, nay, aggravate animosity between two communities to further their own interests.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Muslims in india still believe in 2 nation theory.
    They just do not say it in public, as they are stuck in india.

    they believe all the loot their anscestors did, should be with them.

    they do not want to give up a single inch, even if it is acquired violently..

    or maybe they still want to insult and humiliate hindus, as a true muslim should do..

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Sam
    It is these tendencies, which are detrimental for their upliftment. See, how that section of muslims, subscribing to obscurtanism, are going down the social structures. Now even dalits and scheduled castes are better off than them. This is not because of discrimination of any kind, but their own tendency to shun modern thoughts, liberalism and sticking to dogma. How they can survive in this 21 centuary? They will keep getting religated to bottom and keep on thrashing air, bemoaning lost glory.
    You do not have to go very far. Pakistan of today, which was India of pre 1947 was prosperous, leading in almost every sphere of life vis a vis rest of india. What these people have done to this lovely land. ruined, destroyed, looted, plundered and raped. Pakistanis know only destruction, construction is not their forte. what ever intellectuals, achievers they produced, by quirk of fate or sheer individual labour, they have uprooted their graves, memory. Professor Salim and sir Zafarullah comes to mind. leave them to their fate. Only some one from inside that community can redeem them. the only problem is that in waiting for this messiah, others will suffer along with these backwards.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Take CWG. where is Pakistan today? that land had produced top notch players once, now, they are being counted amongst also participated. Only one silver medal is keeping them away from bottom rung. wish these moron wake up and join main stream of present world.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Hello Mr Pankaj,

    Sorry couldn’t get back to you early.

    Why muslims cant vacate Ayodhiya completely and gracefully is the question that muslims residing in India have to answer. I would not wish ill for the two communities and what happend during Babar’s era is gone. If the place is of significance for hindus i must say muslims should ‘think over it. My concern is somewhat different – I would try to make it close to another example but somewhat different.

    Just like Ayodhia, Somnath and Ghauri is another example that comes to my mind. Even though no mosque was built over the mandir yet the complete demolish at the hands of Ghauri and some traces of even before/after him are we aware of. Yet the mandir still stands there – The place might be or not of same position to hold true as Ram’s janambhomi (I’m less aware) but it still is a worship place of some level and respect. The reason it stands there despite demolish is because hindus have reconstructed it again and again despite the muslim rule too in Gujrat. But no where i heard a similar act – demanding the reconstruction of mandir in Ayodhia. Concerns might have been there but the place was mutually used for worship. It does sound to have some weight when equating to attrocities of Mughals but then why not in Haridwar, Varanasi etc did mughals left that on purpose or was it not amazing as compared to Ayodhia? So it is not completely true that mighty mughals had destroyed hindu culture. Hindu culture is still there. Hope the analogy can sparkle some light of my thoughts, please you may add.

    Pakistan has its own problems and that too within the past 30 yrs things have taken a different and unfavourable course and problems have risen high. What and when more? will debate on the issue on some other blog title.

    Thanks,
    Usman

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thanks Usman for your Post.
    I respect your mature language and you appear to be truly curious to know about Indian history of not very distant past. When I say, that moguls tried to destroy or tried to belittle indian culture, which in a broader sense, include religion as well, they were not unique. Every conquerer in middle ages was tempted to lord it over the vanquished people. Large scale murder of delhiites by Nadirshah, which included Muslims as well is an example. Yes, somnath temple is Importan temple and may be was very rich temple, as it was in gujrat state, known for business, and thus, becoming a target for Ghauri’s plunder. But Ghauri was a plunderer, had no interest to settle down and establish a kingdom in hindustan. He looted and went back to Kabul. but, Moguls were establishing an empire, so it was important for them to undermine locals, their customs and religion, so as to instill inferiority in them, which as per norm in those times, was considered a prerequisite to rule over aliens. This may be true even in present age, but in much more subtle way. Three very impotant temples, around which Hindu religion revolves,Ram temple in Ayodhya, Kashi Vishvanath in Varanasi and krishna janambhumi in Mathure, were thus destroyed and a mosque was built on top of them. You can see evidence of this even now. It is true, that demand for Ram temple is very strong as he is considered as Central figure in Hindu religion. This demand for mandir is not new, but was present since the construction of Mosque, much muted, as moguls were all powerful in those days, but it gained momentum, when moguls were replaced by Britishers and this is going on since last more than 150 years. the clinching evidence is existence of old temple, as unearthed by ASI. Even court could not ignore this evidence. May be in strict legal sence, the present judgement may not hold correct, but in the larger interest of peace and goodwill, this judgement can not be faulted. Except for may be fringe constituency, no body is interested to go back in past and revive acrimonious issues. Everyone is interested to come up in life in material and intellectual sense, and that is how it should be. Hope, we are on the same page here and you understand situation in a new perspective.

  • vijay kumar

    Hi Usman,

    Where had you disappeared? :) Your voice is required on this blog!!

    Well let me get you some facts.

    Ram and ramayana is so much part of the Hindu conscious. I probably started getting the feed ins, when I was three, when my grandmother used to tell me the stories.

    Coming back to your question regarding the HIndu claims over the area, they were always there in the 1600’s and 1700’s. There is a record kept by a Britisher in the all India Gazette of 1850 whichstates that BOTH Hindus and Muslims now pray here. He specifically mentions a Sita rasoi and an area marked out for the worship of Ram in the building.

    Finally in 1949, some HIndus placed idols of Ram out there. However to prevent the issue from becoming a communal flashpoint, the Government of Nehru locked up the premises.

    That is the plain history. And today history can be created if the two communities get together and find a solution on the lines suggested by the court. But this 1,500 yd plot, smaller than the house my grandfather left behind in Sialkot, when he came to India would always have special significance for hindus.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Hi Vijay,

    Disappeared!! No where, it is just i dont show up that frequently & stick to only blog writings of Mr Sharma and to some brief comments.

    Indeed it should rightly be so of significance for hindus and i have no reason to deny it. Further questions raised – the destruction came into 1992 when the mob stormed into the mosque and rubbled it. However, what you have stated and Rajiv above is that there is sharing of place for worship equally (concerns from hindus were there) but not the bitter animosity was worshiped then why did it had to see destruction at the hands of karsaveks? Destruction should either have been long before (at inception) or shouldn’t have been.
    Leaving this as your internal matter – I only wish well to both communities and should realize existance is sustainable in coexistance .

    P.S: Just to share – With mixed feelings i must say my ancestry too was from Jallandar, Punjab. My grandfather was a qualified physician and commisioned medical officer in Indian Medical Corps. He served in Indian army for few years and was stationed in Egypt from 43 – 45 during WWII. But caught in the saga of partition had to leave for Pakistan and eventually ended up in Lahore. My nana (mother’s father) stayed back for some time and reached Pakistan in 1948. I guess such tales are common and would like to invite you to Pakistan to pay visit to your ancestral city.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    For that reasson, you can extend your invitation to me as well. My ancestry belonged to Kohat and I do cherish to visit that place in y life time . But that place now seems to be in the midst of big turmoil.
    All the best
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Most Welcome sir!! Would love to have you as my guest. Incase you do have plans let me know, this time around and may be few ahead the situation is in turmoil as you said hoping one day it will prevail to good.

    Regards,
    Usman

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    Thanx for your very warm response. I hope you appreciate our added interest in your country because eof ur past bonding with the areas now in Pakistan, though some people in your country might be wondering why we Indians are so obsessed with Pakistan and may be attributing some sinister motives behind our extra interest in the affairs of your country. But the reasons are very obvious. It is only cherishing the birthplace of our ancestors and nothing else.
    As for as the judicial verdict about Ayodhya is concerned, I believe the court ruling has provided a face saving opportunity to all the parties involved in this litigation. It is time that we all take the benefit of the outcome of this long legal battle to decide this issue once for all and move further. After all,the legal stamp even on this belief( as some people believe) is a better option than any legislative ruling .to decide matters of faith. We do not want the likes of Shah Banoo case to be repeated when against a court ruling, new law was legislated by the Lok Sabha to put the stamp on the faith of minority community in the country.
    May be you have different opinion but it is OK. Every one can wait the ruling of apex court in case any party chooses to appeal. In that case, if this decision is upheld, the legal stamp will be fixed on the issue for all times to come.
    Regards
    BNA

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    @Usman
    Some correction please om my above post.
    In the second line of the post, it should be read as “because of our past bonding—–” and not “because of ur past bonding—-”
    BNA

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Hello Dr Anand,

    For somewhat similar reason we too share some interest in the happenings of India as the tales and feelings are a bit mutual on either side.

    I’m not fully aware of Shah Bano case so can’t fully create analogy to Ayodhia conflict. Often religious matters or at times institutional clash between supreme justice authority and parliament can bring bruises; henceforth a mutual consent has to brought about to make constitutional ammendments. To me judicial verdict on Ayodhiya conflict seems fair with 2/3 portion going to Hindus and 1/3 to muslims. But some doubts still pose some more questions. I leave the case as your internal matter and wish that two communities will accept the court’s verdict gracefully.

    Usman

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    Vijay and Usman

    We are minimizing Rama, the first poet in the world “Adi Kavi” Valmiki, a great literary treasure Ramayana if we state it is only for Hindus. Muslims and christians (like me) may not worship Rama as a God or treat Ramayana as a sacred text; but nothing should stand in the way of Muslims in India, Msulims in Pakistand and other non_Hindus in india to claim and absorb these as our precious time immemorial heritage.

    Ramarajya did not have Hindus and Miuslims in that — only people. Nobody should have a problem witha ccepting Rama as the epitome of the right ruler who ruled for his “praja”s.j

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Thx Gopi

    I am sure there is a larger meaning of Ram Rajya, beyond just the narrow confines of Ayodhaya. However I think it would be wise to use the term in such a manner so that no religion or anybody gets fearfull !

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @uSMAN AND OTHERS

    More from Wikipedia on the historical dispute

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_debate

    In 1767, Jesuit priest Joseph Tieffenthaler recorded Hindus worshiping and celebrating Ramanavami at the site of the mosque. In 1788, Tieffenthaler’s French works were published in Paris, the first to suggest that the Babri Mosque was on the birthplace of Rama[citation needed], saying that “Emperor Aurangzeb got demolished the fortress called Ramkot, and erected on the same place a Mahometan temple with three cuppolas” reclaimed by Hindus through numerous wars after death of Aurangzeb in 1707 A.D like they earlier fortified it during Jahangir’s rule as Ramkot.

    During the 19th century, the Hindus in Ayodhya were recorded as continuing a tradition of worshiping Rama on the Ramkot hill. According to British sources, Hindus and Muslims from the Faizabad area worshiped together in the Babri Mosque complex in the 19th century until about 1855. P. Carnegy wrote in 1870:

    “It is said that up to that time, the Hindus and Mohamedans alike used to worship in the mosque-temple. Since the British rule a railing has been put up to prevent dispute, within which, in the mosque the Mohamedans pray, while outside the fence the Hindus have raised a platform on which they make their offerings.”[14]
    This platform was outside the disputed structure but within its precincts.

    In 1858, the Muazzin of the Babri Mosque said in a petition to the British government that the courtyard had been used by Hindus for hundreds of years[citation needed].

    [edit] The Mahant Ram case
    In 1885, Mahant Raghubar Ram moved the courts for permission to erect a temple just outside the Babri Mosque premises. Despite validating the claim of the petitioner, the Faizabad District Judge dismissed the case, citing the passage of time.[15] On 18 March 1886, the judge passed an order in which he wrote:

    I visited the land in dispute yesterday in the presence of all parties. I found that the Masjid built by Emperor Babur stands on the border of Ayodhya, that is to say, to the west and south it is clear of habitations. It is most unfortunate that a Masjid should have been built on land specially held sacred by the Hindus, but as that event occurred 356 years ago, it is too late now to agree with the grievances. (Court verdict by Col. F.E.A. Chamier, District Judge, Faizabad (1886)[16]

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    Sharmaji,
    This is to re-iterate for the fixes at HT’s blog engine. Comments are not – I repeat, not (with full emphasis added) – being highlighted in the chronological order of their postings. This is terminating some really interesting threads of discussion leaving them at the mercy of particpant’s ability of scrolling back to the older pages. Secondly, a thread of discussion – deemed terminated by the participants – mostly has its recent comments buried. Do you really expect all the participants to be checking all the comments scrolling back and forth between pages ? Remember, most (if not several) of the participants are from non-IT background. Why is HT’s IT team so hell-bent on penalising them ? Perhaps a side-bar with hyperlinks to recent comments (something akin to what blogspot does) could be of help here.
    Thanks,
    Mahesh.
    p.s. for fellow Blog commentators : Please feel free to “add to the consent” in case you think I am raising a important technical issue here. This – perhaps – is one point where we can agree irrespective of our National / Social / Religious / Political leanings.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Sharmaji can not fix this problem because he is not a IT guy, he is more of a congress political guy.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    I agree with Mahesh. Once the number of comments exceed 100, too difficult to read the comments added in between.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Yesterday, Interpol released red corner notices for 5 Pakistanis , 2 of them serving Pak army majors, for involvement in the 26/11 Mumbai carnage.

    Its big news in India. DAWN carried the news for a brief while. Other Pak media seems to be ignoring it. That bahaviour of ignoring bad news about Pak army by the Pak domestic media, is a consistent trait that I find in Pak media.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/06-warrants-issued-for-five-pakistanis-in-mumbai-attacks-rs-02

    NEW DELHI: Interpol notified its members on Thursday that India has issued arrest warrants for five Pakistani citizens, including two army officers, for alleged involvement in the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, an official said.

    India asked Interpol to issue the so-called ”red corner notices” for the five Pakistanis, said R.K. Gaur, a spokesman for India’s Central Bureau of Investigation.

    The notices follow a probe by India’s National Investigation Agency into the role of American David Coleman Headley, who pleaded guilty in the United States in March to participating in the planning of the attacks, which killed 166 people.

    The five Pakistanis wanted by India are Maj. Sameer Ali, Maj. Iqbal, Illyas Kashmiri, Abdur Rehman Hashim and Sajid Majid, Gaur said.

    …..”

    The Interpol norices were issues based on evidense collected by the interrogation of Mr Gilani/Headley in Pak custody. The Pak majors, were directing and handling Headley, as they planned the Mumbai attack.

    That news , to me , is more significant, than what Musharraf says about Pak army training militants.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    “That bahaviour of ignoring bad news about Pak army by the Pak domestic media, is a consistent trait that I find in Pak media.”

    And what do you call, “when your own media shows you your country’s real face, that you consistanly refuse to look at”.

    Rajiv don’t you people get tired of making self-serving statements, and narrate cooked up stories.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Hey Azhar;
    Your absence from blog gave me impression that you are busy with CWG. Having finished your job there, you are now back to your another part time job of wrestling in different arena. Though I must admit that your contribution to blog add more heat than light to the subject. But let me also say, that bitter is also a taste and poison also has its use.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Hello Pankaj:

    Yes I am back, too busy at work and classes. Unfortunately I can’t see CWG here in Florida, cause I don’t have indian channels, and Pakistani Channels are not showing because nothing to cheer about. Saw the hockey game highlights, I must India palyed like they used to in the 70’s.

    You see I will be critical because all in all India has done a good job arranging them and you guys snatching all that gold, atleast you guys are ahead of the ghora’s.

    As far heat and light are concerned my intend is not here to brag about Pakistan just because I am a Pakistan, but add some spice in the discussion and “show you guys the mirror” I know you guys don’t like the mirror. Mirror is never liked when one is up to NO Good, but is pretending to be a nice guy.

    Take care

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    @ Azhar
    Thanks Azhar,
    by Ghoras , I presume you mean Goras. No, Australia is still dominating like a Colossus. The whole nation does nothing, except play.
    About this mirror analogy, I am a bit confused, have you taken this saying from cindrella and seven dwarves? I do not understand your anger against India, Yes, India started with heavy odds against it, with number of illiterate, abysmal health conditions, shaky economy and chaotic democracy but how you can not see the progress made by India, that too without a totalitarian regime like China. The number of Millionaires, in $ terms are in thousands. number of Billionaires in high fifties and level of income of lower rung of society rising steadily. Better education, better health, better economy, what other parameters you have? Having said that, still, lot has to be done, Child malnutrition is abysmal, progress is uneven and distribution of wealth and health is lopsided. But, Governments are sincere, working with whatever perfection/imperfection inherent in such situaion. Public is watchful and change the governence in an election, without bloodshed. So what mirror you are talking about. I am purposefully not mentioning Pakistan here. A Pakistani has every reason to be modest and should not boast. Boasting about what? Pakistan of 50s has deteriorated considerably, not improved. I know, as a Pakistani, it must be hurting you, but until you face reality and try to improve conditions, nothing will change. I hope, after your education, you will go back to Pakistan and try to change things for better. No point in being Arm chair patriot and revolutionary.
    Good luck with your efforts.

  • Rajiv

    May these good souls be blessed.
    fromOutlook India

    3 parties to Ayodhya dispute meet in search of a solution.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Unfazed by plans of others to approach the Supreme Court, three main parties in the Ayodhya title suits–Ram Janmbhoomi Trust, Hashim Ansari and Nirmohi Akhara–today came together for the first time on a public platform and discussed a formula for a negotiated settlement.

    Panch Ram Das of Nirmohi Akhara, Ramvilas Vedanti of Ram Janmbhoomi Trust and 90-year-old litigant Hashim Ansari held a meeting at the residence of Hanuman Ghari Mahant Gyan Das and deliberated ways to find a solution.

    Later, the three men claimed they have reached a formula, which they think would be acceptable to both Hindus and Muslims, but did not elaborate. Akhil Bharat Hindu Mahasabha and Sunni Central Waqf Board have announced they would approach Supreme court.

    “We have devised a solution to the dispute keeping in mind sentiments of people of both Hindu and Muslim communities. And we have also taken into account court’s verdict on the issue”, Gyan Das told reporters after over one-and-a-half hour meeting.

    “We want to create a situation where Hindus do karsewa for construction of mosque and Muslim do similar services for a temple. Those talking of approaching (Supreme) court should understand that this issue could not be resolved through court or parliament”, Gyan Das said without spelling out details.

    “Hashim bhai has given me the responsibilty for initiating settlement talks and I have brought the three on a platform. The roza-iftar was held here and now the Ayodhya dispute will be sorted out here”, Das added

    Agreeing with Das, Ansari said that even if someone approached Supreme Court, their exercise for an amicable settlement would continue.

    “We will not allow those playing politics over the issue among us”, Ansari said.

    About the meeting, Panch of Nirmohi Akhari Ram Das said he hoped that both Hindus and Muslims would not have any objection to their formula.

    Stating that their forumla would spread message of communal harmony and peace, Mahant Ram Das said that politicians should stop issuing statements on the issue.

    “Bahut khoon kharaba ho gaya, ab aman chain ki baat karni hai” (The issue has witnessed a lot of bloodshed, now we have to talk of peace and harmony), he said.

    Vedanti, a senior member of the Ram Janmbhoomi Trust, said he has met Hashmi for the first time and he was glad to talk to him.

    “The formula will help in mending fences between the Hindu and Muslim communities”, Vedanti said.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    The above meeting was organized by

    The meeting was hosted by Mahant Gyandas, president of Akhil Bharatiya Akhara Parishad, at the Hanumangarhi temple. Gyandas has been organising roza iftar in the temple during Ramzan for years and enjoys the confidence of Ayodhya’s Muslims.

    Do you see any main stream media or those who falsely claim to be secularist , eveigh light or talk of peolle like Mahant Gyandas ?????????????

    Roza Iftar organied in a temple for Muslims, for years, in Ayodhya.
    Its people like him whom media needs to cover.

    But you wil never hear criminal like Kuldip Nayar, who has written anathor hateful piece, write about these good souls.

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    Isn’t Outlook part of MSM (Mainstream Media) ?

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Let me just say, If Kuldip Nayar, who is veryrespected in so called andallged secular circles is reduced to callous lying, then not much is left to defend by the so caled mainstream media.

    Mr Kldip Nayar, writing in Dawn in Pakistan said that the so called Hindu parties have been gloating of victory after he verdict. Thats a very incendiary and false allegation.

    The RSS chief repeatedly said that the verdict is victory or defeat for none. Most other to leaders of s called right parties have echoed same sentiments.

    Anathor leader alleged that while Hindu leaders have invited Muslims to help build temple they have not offered to helpbuild mosque.

    Thats too a blatant lie as thereport above shows that so called Hindu organizations have proposed that Hindus volunteer in mosque constrtion and vice-versa.

    My point is that the so called self proclaimed ecular media is reduced to lying and making incendiary allegations in a desperate attempt to provoke the minorities because there target is BJP and not welfare of India.

    When Kuldip Nayar is reduced to outright callous lies what more can be said ?

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    Rajiv,
    Several questions for you when here….
    First and foremost – whenever possible and when stating something as facts – try to substantiate what you say with a Web Link for reference . I can understand this is not always possible , though, when you intend to put forth a point of view.
    Here is the Kuldip Nayar’s article I am looking at : http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/kuldip-nayar-future-hangs-in-balance-800
    My first question is – have you read the article in entirety ?
    In the article he is expressing dissent on the judicial judgement. In case it hasn’t struck you yet, approaching Supreme Court on the HighCourt’s judgement is another form of expressing the dissent. While at it , he has also sounded out the fear about outcome if the court judgement were to go against the “Hindutva Elements” . Nothing instigating or provocative here. Other Parts of article speak about how the judiciary can be setting precedent on the faith deciding over the law. From the same article…..
    “The judgment gives pause to the raging differences between Hindus and Muslims; it gives them time to introspect. Do they take the same road which they traversed since independence? How do they face the future which is that of science, technology and economic development?

    They cannot remain prisoners of prejudices because they follow different religions. This is another opportunity to strengthen our secular ethos and face the question of why Indians as a nation have failed to establish the secularism to which they swore after winning freedom.”
    Again – nothing “provoking” (as you say) here.
    Having said this – I do have a problem with Kuldip Nayar’s article that puts the whole onus on the Muslims “accepting the judgement” – albeit sullenly . IMHO, This is just plain wrong – Principally because, it does assume Ayoodhya judgement holding special place in the hearts of Muslims and Hindus alike. Well, a few days down the line ever since judgement has been delivered by the high court you hardly ever see anything being discussed. Actually, even next day after the judgement day – it appeared as if people heaved a sigh of relief just because “nothing un-toward happened”. It does appear Mr. Nayar has forgotten that 2010 is not 1992 and that we all have moved on. Some of his valid arguments notwithstanding.
    Finally, here is a another source for Kuldip Nayar’s opinion – with a few more experts included – on Ayoodhya judgement and its aftermath.
    http://www.ummid.com/news/2010/October/01.10.2010/experts_on_ayodhya_verdict.htm
    Also you said ….”My point is that the so called self proclaimed ecular media is reduced to lying and making incendiary allegations in a desperate attempt to provoke the minorities because there target is BJP and not welfare of India.” Can you please cite me specific references where you see the so called provocations ?
    Cheers,
    Mahesh

  • Vijay Kumar

    @Rajiv,

    Don’t you see that the basic idea is NOT to resolve a dispute so that all these morons can shout from thier static positions, for fifteen minutes of fame?

    @Vinodji,

    Coming back to the tri-furcation of Jammu, Ladkah and Kashmir, don’t you think it is more necessary than ever before as India’s poster boy, Omar, has suddenly made an inchoerent statement. ?

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Vijay
    Pleas allow me to come in before Sharma Saheb responds.
    In fact, Mr. Omar Abdullah has surprised every one for his naivety in not being able to know that accession and merger is the same. That is what everyone even Mr. Padgaonkar was of the view in a tv discussion. It seems introducing young men without any political administrative experience into top positions in the governance of a state is proving a disaster. The haste with which this person was introduced in to this position at the behest of Rahul Gandhi and his inability to deal with the maneuvering of the separatists is an abject lesson for the country as well as for the media not to push these young people who do not have enough understanding about the history and culture of the country in to deal with the tricky problems of the state and country. After all,there is no substitute to experience , maturity and merit for someone to occupy such positions.
    The idea of trifurcation of Jand K , hopefully will get more support with time.
    BNA

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Shamefully the sly General Musharraf is back in action. To win support for himself, he may rouse passions on Kashmir in Pakistan. He is openly backing the ISI, Jamaat and Lashkar as long as they act in Kashmir alone, calling them freedom fighters.

    Secretly he would back them as long as they keep hitting India,anywhere.

    This time we should openly back the revolt and rebellion and “freedom fighters” in Baluchistan as the Pakistani ***** is out of the bag and in the open :)

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    **** above has come in place of p u s s y which means cat. Wonder why the word has been replaced by asteriks

  • vijay kumar

    @ Rajiv,

    Arre bhai, Kuldip uncle ka bhi pate hai. Uski roti Hindu ka mazzaak bana kar aati hai….

    Rajiv, the bigger villian is Jawed naqvi who does his best to deride India in international papers. Us ko toh bilkul sharam nahi hai… do roti ke liye HIndu ka apman aur desh se gaddari….

    Shame on him :( :( Thook phekon in idiots par.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    You are right Jawed Naqvi is bad dude, showing the real face of your country. You make me laugh sometimes, or shall I say most of the time. Any facts related showing your country in bad light (?), the writer is bad and any write ups against Pakistan becomes Gospel or rather story from your holy book.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Javed Naqvi is terror supporting pro-pakistani Indian. For you every word of his is gospel truth. That guy has a heart of Islamic fundoo that is full of hatred for hindus.

    Why don’t you take him in your country? We don’t need rotten apple.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Now for the funny part !!

    I was at the Dhyanchand stadium in Delhi, watching the Indo-Pak hockey match. More about that tomorrow. But the big news. Sonia and Rahul were there too !!

    Earlier to this I had spotted Rahul at the Talkatora where he was watching the boxing along with Robert Vadra and the kids. Yesterday, I told he had gone to see the wrestling.

    Now the funny part :) :) !! What effort will this have on Mani “silencer” Aiyar ??? :)

    Since Rahul and Sonia Mata have indirectly endorsed the CWG, either Aiyar starts doing a bhangra in support of the games or he becomes persona non grata with the COngress !!

    Let’s watch that comedy which is releasing soon…. :)

    Let me clarify. I am actually against corruption more than anybody else. But once India had taken up the challenge of the CWG we had to hold a good show, while Aiyar wanted us to fail.

    Meanwhile let us also check out the Silencer. Did he not hold on to government MP accommodation at the cost of the poor even when he was not entitled to it? Is that not corruption.

    Did he not try to torpedo the CWG by dereliction of duty. Is that not corruption?

    Has he not claimed an entry into Parliament pretending to be an eminent writer and artist like Lata Mangeshkar and Nargis? is that not lies and corruption….

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Mani Shankar Iyer , a bumbling idiot thug and a conniving politician, has anathor credential.

    He also belongs to the sam dishionest tribe of men, like Kuldip Nayar, wo regularly pout lies and propoganda on Indo-Pa issues, while talking about of all men, Mahatma Gandhi !

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    ha ha ha nice !!!!

    [Reply]

  • Mahesh

    Sharmaji,
    The “moderation process” at this blog appears to have gobbled my posting. The comment was in compliance with this blog’s guidelines.
    Can you Please respond whether my comment made it at all ?
    Thanks,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear Mahesh,
    I was travelling in Europe the past week and had no time to visit my blog. But pl repost the comment if something amiss has happened.

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    No Problems. The Comment appears now. Thanks. Hope you had a nice tour (and , perhaps, vacation as well).
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Azhar,

    Azhar Bhaiya, I am very disapointed at your approach of trying to equate everything in India with that in Pakistan. I will give you two examples.

    a) Your General Musharaff has proudly admitted that the Pakistani establishment– army , ISI and bureaucracy– trained and funded the Jaish, Lashkar, Jamaat and other such terrorists, murderers and killers since the 1990’s tyo kill, murder, maim and torture innocents in Kashmir. He further states that he supports this as do many in PaKistan.

    Good that the Pakistani pu-ssy is finally out of the bag. At least it will shut up the mouth of some innocent Indians who fervently belieived that it was the non-state actors acting alone who were responsible for terrorism.

    But… If you think that it is okay to kill in support of so called freeddom in Kashmir, why should not Indians, do the same in Baluchistan ??/ Why should we not holed camps for the innocent Baluchis who are being victimised by Pakistani army and Punjabis??/

    b) In the recent commonwealth games, despite the warm reception given by India, the Pakistani team has got stuck at 3 medals in comparision to India’s 90. Why ? WHY ?? WHY??? Despite being largely of the same racial stock, the conversions to Islam largely happening after Babr came here.

    —- i) Is it because children in Pakistan dont practice for athletics but are now taught how to throw
    a bomb and run 100 mtrs “? :) :)

    ii) Instead of throwing a discus, the Jamaat wants kids to learn how to lob a grenade :) :)

    iii) Instead of playing hockey– which you guys played well once, players are more expected to
    Learn how to kill women with sticks– especially those who talk to men? This is Jamaat’s
    contribution to sports in Pakistan :) :) :)

    I can go on and on. But the point is I am trying to tell you India and Pakistan are on a different trajectory now and you guys should change!! No point in trying to imagine yourself to be good by tryiing to pull down India.

    PS: I am using black humour to get my point across. I wish Pakistanis well. Just want them to give up terrorism , jehad and murder.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    @Vijay:

    Let me answer your scarcastic remarks one by one:

    a) And did you read the full text of his interview and were you able to digest it or you being a typical Indain feeding on those remarks. He was making a point that whole world uses the UN resolution when it suits them i.e non-Muslims but when it comes to the Muslims no matter how many resolution are passed who gives a sh-it, right. This is what you get when this happens. Kashmir resolution is sitting in the UN for 60yrs. Then look at Indonesian Island which had majority Christians, with one resolution that island got independence. Then ofcourse these Kashmirs are going to say and have been saying for the longest for elections, they muslims are the majority in that State. And I understand 1 billion pu-ssies are having pain because Pakistan is helping them. Vijay remember East Pakistan, remember Mukti Banni; rememeber your support for them, we understand it is painful but someone is going to pay the price for it. Indra Ghandi was too happy to help, but Sikhs took the revenge. She got what she deserved, don’t your think.

    b) So you guys won 90- medals we are happy for you. We had pathetic performance in the games. Vijay I will talk to you when its Olumpics, when the whole world is competing when a country could China, comparable to India in populations will also be competing, then lets see how many you guys win. But if you compare Pakistan and India, in the world of sports go do some research who has more World Championship and get back with me. Just Pakistan and India since 1947, gather the world champions or championships.

    !) ii) iii) are just childish comments, I will have to tell you to look in the mirror, but then again you guys don’t like me telling you to look in mirror.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    So you go and fight with Christian dominated UN. We don’t give a damn what muslim countries think.
    There is nothing called muslim land. All the land under muslim occupation is occupied land. Except for Arabia, you don’t actually have any claim to other lands. Even persia is occupied territory.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    CRICKET:June 2010, stands at 45 for India & 69 for Pakistan. 123 matches played

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajeev do you always start F A -T-NG when faced with truth

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    We all can see who is farting from all holes of body..

    Hum tumhare badan mein itne chhed karenge, tum confusia jaoge ki saans kahan se le, paade kahan se..

  • Azhar Hussain

    This ones for you Vijay:

    Best performance at Field hockey World Cup (men), 4 times winner (1971, 1978, 1982, 1994)
    Greatest number of British Open Squash champions (men’s) , won 30 out of 73 championships
    Greatest number of World Open Squash champions (men’s) , won 14 out of 31 championships

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Maximum number of terror attacks done by Pakistanis.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    I see that smoke coming out from you r–r end, thats ok Rajeev there 1 billion of you who can digest this.

    Oh I forgot world cup Cricket championship 1992
    T/20 Champion and Twice in the Finals

    But if you compare size of the country, then China comes to mind and oh boy this country really makes you guys look like an undernorished A S S in any field.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    1971 pakistani surrender was biggest after world war II…

    I love smoke out of your bum… ;)

    vijay kumar Reply:

    All that happened before Jehadis, killers and Jaish became the primary sportsmen of Pakistan

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Dear Azhar,

    The way Pakistanis get China into the picture to defend themselves is funny. Remember a few years back your country would boast that it has the backing of the USA so it had the biggest dada in the world behind it. :)

    But once US shook Pakistan of its tail like the a dog does to a flea, Pakistanis are now told that they must stick on to the tail of CHina !! :)

    And tomorrow if China shakes its tail… Pakistanis will go flying…. :)

    My friend, my basic contention is that Pakistanis must play games rather than become jehadis and kill innocents. Do you think you can win medals if…

    a) Women wear a burka and run in 100 mtrs? :)

    b) Can women actually do a diving and swimming event wearing a tent? :) :)

    So I think Pakistanis could well pracice shooting first. Get your guns out and start killing Taliban, jehaids and the Jaish. That would be a good way to practice for the shooting range and also on how to come back to the sports arena… :) :)

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @ Vijay Vijay

    You being a typical Indian just don’t get. Read my post again or else I post it in hindu and maybe you might get. I meant when one compares your giant cuntry to China you guys like sorry A s-, but if you compare it Pakistan which most of the time you guysare, that really makes you feel big.

    But if you compare your cuntry to Pakistan in Sports, then we have won more World chamionships than you P – S s I e s can dream of. I challenge you in this forum to prove me otherwise.

    The rest of your arguments are just based on childish points.

    As far as hanging on to a country is concerned, you guys were also sitting in USSR, remember them, lap and now you in Uncle Sams lapdog.

    CHALLENGE: WE HAVE WON MORE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS THAN YOU COULD DREAM OF.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Dear Azhar;
    That is the point. you are still living in past glory. I am exhorting you to come to present day reality. the world is changing very fast you are still clinging to the notion that earth is stationary and sun is revolving around it. By embracing modernity, no body is asking to shed your religion, but the customs, if they are detrimental to your half of the population, then, there is no point to sticking to them.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @Pankaj

    If you think majority of Pakistanis are supportive of Taliban or extremists, that you people are dead wrong. Thats why Islamist parties lost in the the Frontier Province in the last elections.

    Nobody is living in the past glory…….Can yo elaborate on what point you are trying to make, so that I give you my opinion.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Dear Azhar;
    Thanks for your reply. As I was going out for 2/3 days, I thought we will lose thread. Yes, when I say about past glory, i mean pakistani achievement in sports. Who can deny greats like Zahir Abbas, Imran Khan. Wasim, Mushtaq Mohammad, and many hockey greats. But those players were totally secular, they wee playing for the glory of Pakistan and not for glory of Islam, as now heavily influenced Tablighi players are doing. So, what is happening at present, there must be some detrimental effect, which is affecting pakistani Sport, Science, education and culture in general. That is what I am asking literate pakistanis to understand work to achieve at least past glory, if not scale new heights. hope, I have been able to convey myself.

    ram autar Reply:

    dear pankaj talibans are freedom fighter not terrorists.they are awnsering state terrorism.
    with suicide attacks.bhagat singh and subhash chander bose was terrorist for britishers.now americans undertstand that peoples will cannot be defeated ,so they have agreed to start talk to them.

  • vijay kumar

    Azahar,

    Dont mind. I am using black humour to higlight the fact that Pakistani women are bign left behind their sisters all over the world because of some idiots who use misuse religion to tie them to a medivial age.

    Don’t mind. All for a good cause :)

    [Reply]

    ram autar Reply:

    vijay as per manu-smriti woman is classified between shudra and chandals.killing her is not sin .in tamilnadu most of the women killed at least 2 of their daughters.
    those burn their mother alive if father dies,leave them in ayodhya when old,kill them if they dont bring enough dowry,are teaching us lessons.
    islam is the only religion which provided woman with right to divorce and marriage.can own propety not to change her name.
    shankaracharya of puri supported the burnining of roop kanwar.in hindu religion pati is devta woman is born to serve.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    That is exactly why we went our separate way. Our religion don’t let our sisters, mothers and wives go out reveiling clothes that is our prorogative and since you guys have shed your sisters, mothers and wives clothes thats your choice.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    We don’t stone our mothers and sisters and this is why we chose to stay away from you.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    you just burn them

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    A 1997 report claimed that at least 5,000 women die each year because of dowry deaths, and at least a dozen die each day in ‘kitchen fires’ thought to be intentional.[8] (India Today)

    Rajeev this just in one year, we can’t beat this number.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajeev

    http://blog.compassion.com/infanticide-in-india/

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Azhar,

    The laws for protection of women in India are now the strongest in the world, unlike Pakistan where they are probably among the weakest in the world.

    The laws against dowry are so strong that some hysterical women even make false complaints against their husbands in case he does not take them to a cinema or to a hill station for an excursion, and the shivering men apologise, fearing jail!! :)

    My black sense of humour coming out again…. :)

    In Pakistan even if the woman is multiple raped, her testimony won’t even be considered as it violates some medivial passage of Sharia, as intrepreted by the local maulvi :)

    That, sir, is the difference between India and Pakistan !

    Pratyush Reply:

    Hey Azhar !
    Are you so pissed off just because india got to host a mega event (biggest sporting event ever to be organised in South east Asia ) and pakistan couldnt get to host even a one day international ?
    Dont utter mindless gibberish or who knows a rogue American drone ( or a NATO helicopter) may just accidentally hit your house ? (http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/3-personnel-killed-in-kurram-agency-nato-supply-line-blocked-after-attack-on-post-100)
    Next time think thrice (since twice is obviously not good enough for you) before putting any new nuggets of wisdom in the comments section .

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    @Pratyush

    When did I say anything against CWG? As far as Drone goes, less said the better? YOur forces are fighting the freedom fighters in Kashmir for 20 yrs, and you can’t even stop a lone fighter coming across the border. We are facing a super power across our border, and the previous one, i.e india’s father in law USSR ran away from there. Uncle Sam and NATO are also fixing to run away next year.

    As far as the games go, read the post by Vijay and I was givig a reply to him, just s h u t F up and read and digest my reply and answer.

    [Reply]

    Pratyush Reply:

    @ Azhar !
    To something that pinches you “the less said the better ” …..Lol nice approach !!
    Do they not teach you debating skills (or at least reasoning skills ) in florida ? If kashmir is a freedom struggle whats stopping you from drawing a similar analogy towards the regional struggle in balochistan and waziristan ? A hard fact ,(something you can write under”the less said the better” section of your notebook ,provided your madarsa gave you one) Pakistan and its freedom fighters have failed for last twenty years in its struggle to “liberate kashmir”. However it took India only 16 days to form bangladesh out of east pakistan !!!! Lesson to be learnt here “Dont mess with us indians , we come from the land of kamasutra , we can screw you in more ways than you can count ”
    And Mr azhar , dont you think the media in India is much better than that in pakistan and the reason is i dont see any lunatic in india being given as much airtime as the pakistan media gives to Zaid hamid and hamid gul !!!

  • vijay kumar

    @Azhar,

    All this talk of protecting the honour of mothers, daughters and sisters is a hogwash for keeping them in captivity. I sincerely empathise with women who are subject to triple talaq without alimony and to being bonded in a marriage where they have to share a man with three other wives.

    Let me also state that this is a basic cause of jehad. Maybe I will do a thesis on this one day. If the women are made so unglamorous and so dependent on men, the men treat them like goats and end up keeping two, three, four wives.

    Not only is it unfair to women, it is also unfair to the poorer men of the society. They have little hope of finding a marital and sexual partner. Then what choice do they have?

    Either become homosexuals or get pushed into the way of becoming jehadis or religious fanatics. Sorry to say, a section of the richer members of the society then push them on to this path saying that this is the only way you can serve us, your country and religion.

    Azhar, again I am saying this as a well wisher. Analyse all this and you will get some answers about violence in Pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Vijay I thouaght you little more sense than some of your compariots on this forum, but reading your reply couple posting ago, you just another one of the billion who keeps repeating the same lies about others but never admits his own countries shortcomings.

    Just look for injustice against women in india, maybe that will clear some fog. Notice I did not mention Pakistan, because even one death is enough to make us shameful

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/violence-against-women/violence-against-women—a-fact-sheet/page.do?id=1108440

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Azhar… Azhar,,,.

    Cmon don’t get emotional boy! i sincerely wish Pakistanis well. Believe me the few days I spent in Lahore convinced me that unless I talk bluntly my Pakistani friends, dialogue become meaningless.

    Now I guess you are in college or whatever. SUPPOSING YOU HAD A GIRLFRIEND AND SHE ALSO IS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH FOUR OTHER MALES. How would you feel?

    Will you agree to the fact that she meets you only on Tuesday and spends the rest of the nights with other men?

    That is what happens to the girls who are married to men with four wives. And while you may want to protect the mothers and sisters of Pakistan, do you really feel good that they should be in a polygamous relataionship. where their own rights are i/4 that of men?

    Let me give you a true example. One of my close buddies a Muslim, in my days in England was the son of a father with three wives. He hated his dad. He told me that only when his mother was close… that is one of the few nights his dad would prefer her over his other wives, he could ask his father for toys….

    Otherwise his dad would give money and toys to the children of other wives.
    Transport this to Osama Bim Laden, one of the 67 children of Mohammad Bin laden who had 12 wives. Then you know why a master terrorist was created.

    Look if you allow polygamy, you have to permit polyandry. The west has done that. With disastrous results.

    Let me again state. Even if I hate the idea sometimes, especially when my girlfriend eats my head of, Women need equal rights. And Pakistan instead of moving in that direction is going in the opposite.

    No intention to hurt. Just plain speaking. Wish you would try to understand what I am saying….

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Azhar… Azhar,,,.Azhar

    Cmon don’t get emotional boy! i sincerely wish Pakistanis well. Believe me the few days I spent in Lahore convinced me that unless I talk bluntly my Pakistani friends, dialogue become meaningless.

    Now I guess you are in college or whatever. SUPPOSING YOU HAD A GIRLFRIEND AND SHE ALSO IS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH FOUR OTHER MALES. How would you feel?

    Will you agree to the fact that she meets you only on Tuesday and spends the rest of the nights with other men?

    That is what happens to the girls who are married to men with four wives. And while you may want to protect the mothers and sisters of Pakistan, do you really feel good that they should be in a polygamous relataionship. where their own rights are i/4 that of men?

    Let me give you a true example. One of my close buddies a Muslim, in my days in England was the son of a father with three wives. He hated his dad. He told me that only when his mother was close… that is one of the few nights his dad would prefer her over his other wives, he could ask his father for toys….

    Otherwise his dad would give money and toys to the children of other wives.
    Transport this to Osama Bim Laden, one of the 67 children of Mohammad Bin laden who had 12 wives. Then you know why a master terrorist was created.

    Look if you allow polygamy, you have to permit polyandry. The west has done that. With disastrous results.

    Let me again state. Even if I hate the idea sometimes, especially when my girlfriend eats my head of, Women need equal rights. And Pakistan instead of moving in that direction is going in the opposite.

    No intention to hurt. Just plain speaking. Wish you would try to understand what I am saying….

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Vijay problem we you gusy is that when it comes to Pakistan and Muslims, one bad incident is the whole od Pakistan and Islam.

    The more I read your replies the more I tend to think to think your minds is close shut. My friend do some research and tell me how many of us can get married to four and live happily. Do you even know the requirements for it, do some research and write. Its not your fault you, I have lots American friends here ask me the same Q’s, Four wives blah blah. But most my non-muslims friends have divorced parents, that includes quite a few Hindustanis who are too happy to ape the western culture. In other words its ok to be sc–wing around but lone behold four legal wives, oh No. I weent to co-workers Christmas party, he introduced me to his family. First the mother with her new boyfriend, father with is new girlfriend, sister with her boyfriend and brother with his second girl friend. Now tell me this not screwed up, but alas the white folks are doing it, so it must be ok. No Thank you Vijay but I am happy that your culture is also heading that way.

    And Vijay you sound like you have traveled around, research case of incest; rape; broken families; single famlies, and I can gaurantee you that most of the Muslims will be last in the shamefull list.

    [Reply]

    Pratyush Reply:

    Hey Azhar !! Namaste from india
    Yaar please read my reply to you …I just dont want you to devoid me the pleasure of reading your replies …!!

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Pratyush Reply:
    October 15th, 2010 at 1:25 am

    So you telling you know how to debate, rally you people run from one topic to another without posting any facts. And thats fine we already ******** you guys and there nothing much you can do, can. Boy the day you guys cross the border, then come thump your chest till then sit back, relax and enjoy the ride of your life

    Why does Zaid Hamid and Hamid Gul’s speech strikes some fear in you. Hamid Gul was instrumental in kicking your father in Law USSR from Afghanistan.
    Lets talk about the present, freedom struggle will go on till your last terrorist leaves the State.

    Watch the video, Pakistani flag flying high in your Kashmir
    Read and enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkaEihOtdME
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1QM0F4crr8&feature=related

    [Reply]

  • http://baby-traumblog.de/ quinny kinderwagen

    That’s Too nice, when it comes in india hope it can make a Rocking place for youngster.. hope that
    come true.

    [Reply]

  • Wg Cdr Thomas Walker

    There is a story that a camel which was allowed only to poke his head into the tent kept on entering and threw the owner of the tent out. That is perhaps how the current owners of this piece of land [before 1949] feel. That is perhaps how the erstwhile owners of this piece of land before Muslim Invasion of India are feeling [from their graves]. That is perhaps how the erstwhile owners of this piece of land before Aryan Invasion of India are feeling [from their graves].That is perhaps how the erstwhile owners of this piece of land [cockroaches and bandicoots] before Human Inhabitation of India may feel [from ?].That is perhaps how the dinosaurs occupying this piece of land before the asteroid destroyed the world should feel [from ?]. This shows the fallacy of trying to go back in time. Most of the real owners are extinct now and let us hand over this piece of land to PEACE OF INDIA to occupy this space. Let there be no violence anymore from anyone

    [Reply]

  • Kushal

    You knew about BW all this time and you never TOLD me, Parmanu???

    *relapses into shocked silence*

    Who ELSE have you not told me about?

    [Reply]

  • Kushal

    The thing about travelling, as Parmanu pointed out above in the quote from Amit Chaudhuri, and as you also did in your first comment, is that it has a point. There is a certain reason you’re travelling and a certain something you’re looking for. Unless you actually live in another country as a worker, not a tourist, you really won’t know and won’t want to know much.

    Oh well.

    At least it gives us all something to laugh about.

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZHTQE36KCN27UI4VPK352CRBNM Thangavelu

    Kiran bedi was in a powerful police post.If she wants money nothing can stop her to get it.But through out her service,not a single allegation was made.Now this allegations about air fare differences.it is meaningless.

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/sureshb65 shanmugham balaji

    you are a stooge of congress it had been proved beyond a point with radia tapes. you have lost your credibility and you still write. no one wants to read you. go and join congress along with barkha dutt

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3JABLBMXYNY4NL7XN7JRAQ4EBA deepak

    For the first time something good is happening in the country and the folks like

    [Reply]

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3JABLBMXYNY4NL7XN7JRAQ4EBA deepak

    For the first time something good is happening in the country and the congress party
    and the folks like vir are making every attempt to scuttle the movement. The country will be always remain under developed if the congress remains in power. Most of the ministers in Congress are from well educated back grounds (Harvard, Cambridge) and I don’t understand what makes them such horrible persons.

    [Reply]

  • Ajit Vadakayil

    hi,

    punch into google search FOREIGN FUNDED NGOs RIDING ON ANNA HAZARE’S SHOULDERS- VADAKAYIL.

    CRANE bedi is now CHEAT bedi!

    capt ajit vadakayil
    ..

    [Reply]

  • http://twitter.com/DelhiBug Ranita Ray

    A media creation?? There was an agitation and due to the media, people around the country heard about it and because there was a major anger on corrpution, they were ready to join it. The media did not create this agitation out of a hat!!! Secondly there are people in the media too who are fed up of corruption and supported the movement indirectly by highlighting it.

    [Reply]