26/11 trial: Ball now in Islamabad’s court



India has acted wisely in responding to the Pakistani demand for deposition before a Rawalpindi court of the police officer who led the 26/11 investigations at the Mumbai end and the magistrate who recorded the confessions of Ajmal Kasab, the sole surviving member of the marauding gang.

New Delhi’s offer comes in the wake of Islamabad’s request purported to strengthen evidence against seven of those under trial for the Mumbai carnage— the conspiracy for which was hatched on the Pakistani soil. The anti-terrorism court that sits in the garrison town has to decide, among others, the fate of Zaki ur Rehman Lakhvi of the LeT, whose lawyers have been harping on the absence of any direct evidence against their client. The proposal for video-conferencing with the Indian policeman and the magistrate — if accepted by the Pakistani court— should hopefully be a good legal counter to averments made on behalf of the accused. Defense lawyers have been seeking Lakhvi’s bail on the ground that the case has gone on for over a year-and-a-half with only two of the 200-odd witnesses testifying. The prosecution has also failed to come up with its final charge sheet despite having submitted interim charges in three installments.

It remains to be seen whether the Rawalpindi court will accept video-conferencing as the via media to avoid personal deposition of the Indian police officer and magistrate who took Kasab’s statement under section 164 of the criminal procedure code. If it doesn’t and there is some judicial or administrative hurdle in sending our officer/magistrate to Pakistan, New Delhi should, I feel, invite the Pakistani judge and the defense and prosecution lawyers to India for a face-to-face deposition. This engagement can also be on the no-man’s land at Wagah. The short point I’m making is that India should go to any length to not give Islamabad an excuse to either blame it for weakening the case against the Pakistani conspirators or not meeting the requirement of its judiciary that it claims is independent.

The conviction of those booked by Pakistani agencies is doubly crucial because Hafiz Sayeed continues to be at large. If Lakhvi and Co are also declared innocent by the court or let off for want of adequate evidence, the gingerly Indo-Pak dialogue will have to be put in cold storage for a long time. The public trust required to make bilateral engagement sustainable will get scarcer and be extremely difficult to mobilize anytime soon.

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  • Rajiv

    I like this more forthright approach of Mr Sharma.

    We can all be sure that Pak ISI is running the trial and the judge won’t do anything without approval from the army and ISI.

    Anyway, India should do its best to make assesible all the avidense at its disposal. That would help in exposing the pak state complicity. Our job is to make harder for Pak state to run this sham and farcical trial.

    India should be honest and forthright in its dealings and dialogue with Pakistan.
    We should not mince any words in expressing what exactly we think about Pakistan.

    That would be the first step in any dialogue.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    In the meantime, India should use covert methods to get to the neck of Dawood Gaddar.

    [Reply]

    Praveen Saxena Reply:

    @Rajeev

    Sometimes I have this feeling that he still enjoys the patronage of some influential Indian politicians . I shall not be surprised if some Indian poltician may be continuing to have a revenue sharing arrangement with him, like when he was operating from Indian soil.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    “Anyway, India should do its best to make assesible all the avidense at its disposal. That would help in exposing the pak state complicity. Our job is to make harder for Pak state to run this sham and farcical trial.”

    wake up from your deep slumber. no matter whatever evidence India produces to Pakistan , are they gonna accept or even take some bit of action against those terror groups??
    why should India engage itself in futile and foolish pursuits such as holding talks with Pakistan??

    i ask , is there no end to the stupidity of Indian hegemony and policy makers??
    no matter how much goodwill we show , a swine always remains a swine. they will continue their anti-india activities.
    the only solution is to attack Porkistan and annhilate those pigs.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @Rajiv

    in the last post you had disagreed with me over my comments on Indian Muslims. this completely shows your denialist attitude. i am aware of Pakistan’s anti-non Muslim rhetoric , which is logicless and unjustified , but i am 100% right when i highlight the misdeeds of Muslims.

    i feel that you are very naive to understand my points

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Paritosh,

    There are many individual Indian Muslims that have made more sacrifices for Indian state than you or I will ever make.

    Thats a statement of fact.

    Thats why , its unfair and unjust to make generic comments about any community, Including Indian Muslims. I hesitate to make generic comments about Pakistani Muslims too. Now Pakistan state, thats a different animal, altogether.

    Hope you agree. If not lets respectfully disagree.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    yes indeed there are many individual Indian Muslims who have contributed to the nation. but if you see at the general level , i mean at the community level , you will surely find that majority Indian Muslims are pestilence to the nation , directly or indirectly.

    whats the love that you possess for Pakistani Muslim swines anyways?? can you explain??
    its just plain stupid to hesitate to make comments against Muslim Pakistanis. Pakistani people and the State of Pakistan are no different in any case. a swine is no different from any other swine.

    i respectfully disagree

    Rajeev Reply:

    Rajiv,
    Have you ever wondered why muslims failed to produce another Asfaque Ulla Khan?
    Why is it that muslims don’t consider APJ Kalam as role model?
    Why is it Paswan goes to muslim localities for votes with Osama look alikes?

    Why is it the muslims named their kids after Saddam Hussein during 1990-91 Iraq invasion?

    There is some problem somewhere. The percentage of good muslims is going down rapidly and that is what is alarming.

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    Vinod Sharma’s naive stupidity is at its best when he frankly feels that any sort of bilateral judicial procedure will yield positive results for the 26/11 conviction.

    people like Mr Sharma fail to understand that the entire moral existence of Pakistan is anti-Indianism and without that , it has no meaning. be it even the civilian government of Pakistan , they too have their own anti-India policies and propaganda. even the ordinary pakis are no different. it takes a good balls to face and deface an enemy like Pakistan.
    but for Mr Sharma and his ilk , its called as war mongering.

    [Reply]

  • Prashant Saxena

    Mr Sharma,
    While I agree that India should cooperate with Pakistan in securing a convivtion for the 26/11 accused, what would you reccomend in the following eventualities, if after fulfilling all legal formalities, a court of law decides that:

    1. All accused are innocent. The court finds after detailed investigations that Hindus were at fault.

    2. They are sentenced to minor punishments such as community service or anger management classes, or house arrest etc.

    3. They sentence all accused to life imprisonment and release them from the back door of that prison the same day.

    4. They hang all accused and train another thousand terrorists at the same time.

    What do you think should be India’s response? In short, my question is does dialogue, diplomacy etc make any difference when the publicly open policy of the government is to repeatedly attack and wage a war against India.
    In the history of the world, is there any example of a country diplomaticalyy engaging an enemy who is continuously killing its citizens??

    Maybe you should write a “Vinod Niti” to correct the errors of “Chanakya Niti”?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I think exposing our people to Pakistani court can result in-
    1. Pakistani courts will try to prove that Indian witness is lying.
    2. They will destroy the creditibility of the Indian witeness.
    3. We will be back to explaining Pakistan that we are telling you the truth.
    4. It is quite possible that our media will start questioning Indian witnesses (with Mr.Sharma leading the pack) and destroy our solid case against Pakistan.

    We are born fools..We are waiting to be ridiculed by pakistan and its mouthpieces in India.

    JAI HO…

    [Reply]

    h.mani Reply:

    Raeevj,your analysis is correct.Pakistan or Pakistani Muslims are just mere words.The fact of life is the attitude of the said country since its birth is for ever hostility with so called Hindu dominated country.Recently I went to library and did some research on Mr Jinnah.I have followed his career rt from his grand father who was a Katiawari Hindu,So he was not even a sunni muslim for 45 years when he was born in 1875.If you want to understand any country you have to read their history by your own research.What I found was,he was a Jeffersonian and Edmund Burke ,Gladestonian constitutional lawyer who believed in separation of state and church except in all matters dealing with Hindu India,Why this weird shift in out look?When it came to India,all bets were off,He was determined to stop India in all matters(please find the lecture he gave in Cairo Egypt,it is an eye opener).In order to understand Pakistan we have to study and analyse many documents,words and writing are the windows to look into who they are and where they are coming from.India simply does not do its homework,there are many factors whyI? I wish I could explain it more in details.It is there for asking but unfortunately they do not count.It is in fact total waste of time,whatever Pakistan is doing it is to satisfy American to keep dollar flowing in,that is their motive.

    [Reply]

    Ryan Paul Reply:

    Rajeev,

    I agree absolutely with you. Vinodji is living in fools’ paradise by advocating this curious argument. Pakistani game plan is simple- Destroy the entire credibility of Indian judiciary. Indians will be falling in ISI’s trap if they agree to what Vinodji is propagating on their behalf. How naive can anyone be ! It is beyond my comprehension.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    But isn’t it more worth saying that “we give you the access” (lastly it was through a middle way of arranging a videocon session etc) and leave the rest to Pakistan. What this proves is India’s innocence. Still through this India can lay some conditions and allow a fair access to the accused and the witnesses. This goes in the mutual benefit of both. No one can blame on the other for non co-operation. To me it sounds very fair. Even the “any length” proves more on India’s part. By this i believe the author means no escape for the real culprits. (Please correct me if im wrong).

    [Reply]

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Vinodji,
    I totally agree with you that the ball is in their court. Having said this, I feel that perception and expectation are two entirely opposite but realistic virtues of a justice system. You have an expectation of justice from Pakistanis while the large proportion of Indians (who visit your blog too) have a perception of denial of justice from their courts (vis a vis the 26/11 trial). Unfortunately both are correct in their thinking. It would be hard to believe that justice can come out from the Pakistani courts when its history of denying justice to even its own people stands shamefacedly. And yes as per your expectation we do not seem to have any other option but to be expectant of an outcome which would serve as a healer for those who have suffered on that fateful day in Mumbai (I too have lost a dear friend to that carnage). As for what I think, I feel that what we need is justice of consequentialism that is to get justice which has right consequences for all of us. Pakistan should know that denial of justice in 26/11 will only lead to consequences which will escalate the already existent mistrust and hatred between the two neighbors….surely the ball is not in their court but rather in their hands- they can either serve it legitimately or kick it for good.
    Truly,
    Dr.Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi
    My Blog: http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    Dear Dr Alam,
    Agree. The moot point of my blog is that we shouild not give Pakistani courts and the Government any excuse to let off those under trial for 26/11.

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    And Mr. Sharma when are you gong to punish the guys who were responsible for the killing of 65 Pakistan who visiting your cuntry?

    Rajiv Reply:

    No wonder Pak criminals get there info from and thor criminal organization from Pakistan, called ‘Pak defense forum’.

    There is some propoganda in the media about involvement of some indian organization in the blast. This is what the investigation has found so far.

    “In what should scotch all doubts about who was responsible for the Samjhauta Express blasts of February 2007 that killed about 70 people, US has approached the UN to get a certain Asif Kasmani declared an international terrorist.

    The reasons cited by US to get Kasmani, a Pakistani national, declared an international terrorist are his involvement in the Samjhauta Express blasts.

    Kasmani is considered to be the link between Laskar-e-Toiba and Al Qaida. Though India had blamed the Samjhauta Express blasts on elements from Pakistan, the latter has strenuously denied any connection to the incident. “

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Usman,

    If India is smart, it should go as far as reasonably possible to deny Pakistan any excuse for non-prosecution of accused.

    However, irrespective of what India does. The outcome of the trial is certain.

    Pakistan already has more evidense than any other party in the world, because it has all the masterminds who perpetrated it. It has not arrested the army and isi officers named by Headley.
    In fact Pak is doing everything to ignore Headley and the massive amount of evidense he possesses. After all, Headley made 7 trips to India and Pakistan, paid for by these master-minds, and worked on this project for 3 years.

    All Pakistan needs is to offer one of the accused a good deal and turn him , as a prosecution witness against others, by giving him a good deal.

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    I don’t remember a single instance when India had access to Pakistani witnesses.

    [Reply]

  • ravi

    I think we got to understand one thing that while you can show path to someone who is blind but you can not show path to someone who pretends to be blind. NO matter what u do they are not going to change.question is – is Pakistan a country ?Pakistanis are most wretched creatures on the face of this earth. It is time not to hold any talks with the rogue state till they show tangible progress on the case.26/11 was an act of war. No country in the world would have tolerated this but India did. India’s demand is very reasonable but I don’t see Pakistan keeping its word. Nothing will come out of this case as terrorism is bread and butter of that country. Why to kill the hen that lays golden eggs ?
    As an important member of world community it was India’s duty to isolate Pakistan for using terror as a state policy and rest of the world would have followed but it is India, inspite of being the biggest victim of Pak terror machine, that is not providing impetus to stressed out international to take on this beast which is becoming expensive to maintain by the day. wikileak and British PM’s blunt statement shows all but where are our leaders ?

    [Reply]

  • Ram Singh Khalsa

    The Pakistani trial is being conducted in secret so that ISI can keep its involvement secret

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    The Pakistani game-plan is simple.

    Acquit the accused and blame India that it did not co-operate.

    Remember, the real witness against 26/11 accused is not Kasav or Indian courts, but Daood Gilani (Headley) who was in direct contact with the top leadership and master minds of 26/11.

    Now Headley , in his plea bargain, has agreed to make himself available for questioning on the 26/11 case. Thats how India got access to him.
    Pakistan state and its prosecution have avoided Headley as a plague.
    They have made absolutely no efforts to question him or use his sworn testimony in US Courts.
    Pakistan should find it much easier politically to use the testimony in US courts. But it has not done so.

    The game plan is to acquit the accused and blame it on India.

    India can on delay the charade by continuing to co-operate.
    However, the final outcome is known to all.

    [Reply]

    h.mani Reply:

    Go to THE HINDU’ news paper the entire 12 pages of David Headley Plea bargaining with Chicago federal prosecutor is there.But who cares for facts here,Pakistan is not interested in facts and justice and conviction.you got it right ,does it matter,in grand schemes of Pakistan?No!

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Shah Alam Khan and the the Dr on this forum should remove the prefix Dr and then make comments. Because both of you sound like Rajiv; Rejeev or the joker calling himself PariTush. It is truely amazing that you jokers believe justice would not be done in Pakistan and everything is fine and dandy in India.

    Sardars and Muslims should be the last ones shouting about justice in India, Dr Shah Alam Khan should know better.

    Indian judicial system fails to deliver justice only when victims are minorities: SFJ
    By Gurtej Singh
    Published: July 12, 2010
    Related
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    Sikhs for Justice, a human rights advocacy group which is striving to get justice to the victims of 1984 Sikh Genocide challenged the PM Singh’s claim that “there are visible weaknesses in Indian judicial system”.Gurpatwant S Pannun, Legal Advisor Sikhs For Justice stated that Indian judiciary’s inability is selective and it only fails to deliver justice in cases involving massacre of minorities.According to attorney Pannun, when it comes to prosecute the killers of minorities like Christian massacre of 2008, Muslim massacre of 1992 & 2002, and Sikhs massacre of 1984, the Indian government uses the lame excuse of weakness in judicial system.This becomes clear when the prosecution of minorities’ massacre is compared with other serious cases such as killing of Indira Gandhi, Indian Parliament attack of 1999 or Mumbai Massacre of 2008. In all these cases, the same so called weak judicial system of India delivered justice in matter of few years.According to the attorney Pannun, the real reason is not the inability of judicial system but the unwillingness of Indian political establishment to prosecute the killers of minorities and impunity given to the killers because they are members of one or the other political party.PM Singh’s also announced that his government will compensate the victims of November 1984 and therefore they should not look back move forward. Responding to this, attorney Pannun stated that PM Singh has become devil’s advocate because its exactly the statements like this that promote the culture of impunity, that encourages and ensures the criminals that if they attack weak and minority community they will not face justice and its discourages the victims from ever seeking justice and instead be content with “compensation”. Quoting Saint Augustine’s saying “charity is no substitute for justice withheld”, attorney Pannun further stated that PM Singh’s suggestion to victims “take compensation and forget about justice” is also immoral and against teachings of all religions.According to Attorney if PM Singh has any heart for the victims of November 1984, he could still take action as head of Indian Government that would facilitate justice. According to attorney Pannun, the following demands of the Sikhs are within PM Singh’s power and do not need any judicial action and if serious to his words, PM Singh could:• Recognize November 1984 massacre of Sikhs as “genocide” of Sikhs as per article 2 of UN convention on genocide-1948 which is binding on India through its signature and ratification.• Set up a commission to conduct a nation-wide inquiry to determine the exact number of Sikhs killed all over India in November 1984 and to investigate the organized campaign for the killing of Sikhs in November 1984.• Allow international human rights groups to enter and work in Punjab. This will ensure transparency and will cement India’s reputation around the world as a human rights respecting country.• Set up a commission to investigate and recommend prosecution of security personnel involved in decade long killing of Sikhs and human rights abuses in Punjab.• Present a constitutional amendment before the parliament of India to recognize Sikhism as a separate religion.Ludhiana (June 29, 2010): As per a newsletter sent by Sikhs for Justice, this human rights advocacy group which is striving to get justice to the victims of 1984 Sikh Genocide challenged the PM Singh’s claim that “there are visible weaknesses in Indian judicial system”.

    Gurpatwant S Pannun, Legal Advisor Sikhs For Justice stated that Indian judiciary’s inability is selective and it only fails to deliver justice in cases involving massacre of minorities.

    According to attorney Pannun, when it comes to prosecute the killers of minorities like Christian massacre of 2008, Muslim massacre of 1992 & 2002, and Sikhs massacre of 1984, the Indian government uses the lame excuse of weakness in judicial system.

    This becomes clear when the prosecution of minorities’ massacre is compared with other serious cases such as killing of Indira Gandhi, Indian Parliament attack of 1999 or Mumbai Massacre of 2008. In all these cases, the same so called weak judicial system of India delivered justice in matter of few years.

    According to the attorney Pannun, the real reason is not the inability of judicial system but the unwillingness of Indian political establishment to prosecute the killers of minorities and impunity given to the killers because they are members of one or the other political party.

    PM Singh’s also announced that his government will compensate the victims of November 1984 and therefore they should not look back move forward. Responding to this, attorney Pannun stated that PM Singh has become devil’s advocate because its exactly the statements like this that promote the culture of impunity, that encourages and ensures the criminals that if they attack weak and minority community they will not face justice and its discourages the victims from ever seeking justice and instead be content with “compensation”. Quoting Saint Augustine’s saying “charity is no substitute for justice withheld”, attorney Pannun further stated that PM Singh’s suggestion to victims “take compensation and forget about justice” is also immoral and against teachings of all religions.

    According to Attorney if PM Singh has any heart for the victims of November 1984, he could still take action as head of Indian Government that would facilitate justice. According to attorney Pannun, the following demands of the Sikhs are within PM Singh’s power and do not need any judicial action and if serious to his words, PM Singh could:

    • Recognize November 1984 massacre of Sikhs as “genocide” of Sikhs as per article 2 of UN convention on genocide-1948 which is binding on India through its signature and ratification.

    • Set up a commission to conduct a nation-wide inquiry to determine the exact number of Sikhs killed all over India in November 1984 and to investigate the organized campaign for the killing of Sikhs in November 1984.

    • Allow international human rights groups to enter and work in Punjab. This will ensure transparency and will cement India’s reputation around the world as a human rights respecting country.

    • Set up a commission to investigate and recommend prosecution of security personnel involved in decade long killing of Sikhs and human rights abuses in Punjab.

    • Present a constitutional amendment before the parliament of India to recognize Sikhism as a separate religion.

    [Reply]

  • Roger Clemmens

    Here’s an alternate scenario….

    India, in attempting to oust rogue elements of a particular intelligence agency (who originate from a nation I will not name) who were making illicit deals with criminals who were importing blood diamonds from Africa, and thus destabilizing India’s covert operations, either “leased” members of a legitimate terror organization, or fabricated one from scratch.

    Before letting off a huge sigh of exasperation, hear me out.

    Is it outlandish to suggest elements of a foreign intelligence agency being involved in criminal enterprise, and going to places like Africa, South America, and India to carry it out?
    Okay, so why didn’t India just kick them out through diplomatic channels-quietly? Because India had probably done so and were ignored. Second, this particular country has provided India with spy satellite technology expertise and wanted to avoid the embarrassment.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Do you mind coming out open in the sun?

    [Reply]

  • hammad_afridi

    blokes, you guyz seem to be frustrated or what? get a life. Look for a good girl, or in your case, get a good g-y even! cool it off, these are not the 1940’s ok

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    While a Pakistani would be looking for a good camel, donkey or a goat as google trends has proved :) :)

    Ahaa HAAA HAAA :)

    [Reply]

  • sudhir suri

    Do not be surprised by bail application of Kasab. Only case s which are contested with all seriousness are Gujrat centric.

    [Reply]

  • SM

    The Supreme irony- India refuses to learn! the basic Pakistan’s Funda- When one has a sword, what’s the use for words.

    [Reply]

  • Santosh

    The pseudo seculars try their best to confuse the arguement by saying there are many good muslims but they dont answer the real question, that islam as an organised religion, not as individuals is the cause of all trouble. Is there any muslim dominated state or country that is peaceful??????
    Muslims call for democracy when they are a minority. The same muslims will not allow other religions when they are a majority.

    [Reply]

  • Ats

    I understand Pak sentiments play on Vinod, ( being seperated at birth) but even if you send Kasab to Pak what wiil you achieve ?, when the dossiers/evidence/pleadings by Chid’rm has already been trashed as literature by Pak. How one person that is kasab will make the difference? . The law is not going to hang lakhvi, sayeeds on the basis of one survivor in Indian custidy.

    The World know it all from Headley and Wikileaks revealitions who are the people running the show. We have to recognize Pak as an enemy country and live with that. or else pray Taliban takes over Pak with ex crickter Imran Khan in lead , after US leaves. And there is no guarantee Kayani and Co will be listened to by Talibs this time. It is a gamble India will have to consider – but then India has no choice.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    ATs u must be mad to think Imran has any good feelings for India. In fact he would probably turn out to be more dangrous than Hafeez Saeed.

    Reason?

    Imran counts among his fans some sixty year old Indian aunties, who are willing to treat him like god, while he thinks of them like shit. Remember his comments in his autobiography? “It is a great tradition among Pathan to go go to warm waters of India to screw ”

    If you and me were to say the same about Imran’s sisters or Pakistani women, the politically correct moral brigade of India would be at our throats, getting BJP and Narendra Modi into the picture.

    :) :) sad but true…:) :)

    For the few Indian Muslims who do consider Imran Khan as their saviour, here is more news. He considers them to be morons, ugly and of a lesser race as they are “dark… like children from Africa…”

    Don’t believe me? Read Nadeem Paracha’s blog in DAWN– “the froth of Khan.”

    NDTV propped up Imran Khan was in wilderness after Jemima let him.

    Why did she leave him?

    As Sarfraz Nawaz, fellow cricketer and senator in Pak Parliament revealed, “Because Imran was suffering from veneral diseases (VD) and had wounds in vital areas and is unable to perform duties expected of a good husband….” :) :) — his exact words.

    So Ats, only expect more duplicity from Imran. he was the champion ball tamperer but a section of Indian media was infatuated with him and never questioned him.

    When the Taliban and thje mental rabies infected Pakistani Islaic jihadis attacked the Lankan cricket team, Imran immediately accused India of being behind it. And that too on NDTV. What a double faced liar….

    If he comes to power, he would use his charm over the some english speaking idiots in the media to cause harm to our international standing.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Vinodji,

    You are right…. The ball is in Pakistan’s court. But it will probably keep kicking it back so as to make us feel that the evidence and help given by India is inadequate. Something which was done with the dossiers.

    The idiot who called them a peice of literature, had no idea of the pain and the hurt it had the evil terrorists had caused the families of the innocents killed at point blank by mental rabies infected islamic jihadis.

    We have to realise the Pakistan mindset. They are afraid and terror stricken of the jihadis like Lakhvi and Hafeez Saeed and have no intention of taking action. My worry is that their intention is to bring the Indian judicial process into disrepute.

    we have to be prepared for a response in case they start making fun of the Indi9an jusdiciary and on how Kasab was tried.

    There is of course a bizarre madcap section of Pakistanis who could well say that Kasab was a Hindu (since a tilak was put in his head as he entered Mumbai on 26/11) and also a RAW agent.

    Expect anything from Pakistan, the land of double talk, duplicity and fraud. And be prepared for a response….

    [Reply]

  • (Dr.) B.N.Anand

    Hello Vinod Sharma ji
    I had long advocated the deposition of Indian magistrate and the prosecutor in a Pakistan trial court through video conferencing, as that the only possible way to move further in the case. I am glad that it has come out to be the majority opinion But the other alternate you suggested at holding the court proceedings at Wagah, though looks theoretically feasible but may have many practical difficulties because of deficit trust between the two countries.The whole problem is the suspicion of getting trapped in some vile acts of Pakistan even on this issue. I still believe that video conferencing may still be the only way to move further in the case.
    You rightly said that the ball is in Pakistan court as for as the intention to move further in 26/11 trial in a Pakistani court.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

    jai vaidya Reply:

    before trifurcation a new entity of Panun Kashmir has to be created,this entity should either be a U.T or should have complete autony from valley politics.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    After murdering or expelling 95%of the sikhs in Pakistan in 1947, bigots from the criminal republic of Pakistan, should not talk about anyone !!!

    Frankly, there is no hope for Pakistan, until it disowns Jinnah and his sectarian ideology.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    They are shameless. They not only killed Hindus and Sikhs (Kafirs) but also killed Shias, Ahmediyas and fish eating half-hindu bengali musims.
    Their idiocy knows no bounds.

    They are in the process of killing poor sunni balochis.
    I fail to understand why India is not taking lessons from Pakistan and China on handling separatism. Why should we behave decently with kashmiris? It is time we use pakistani and chinese tactics on these OPRESSED Kashmiris.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Rajiv read again it is showing you your countrys ugly face that you refuse to look. You monkeys can shout till your holy cows come home, we don’t care.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Azhar,
    Wikileaks has exposed true face of pakistani..so buzz off.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    You are so obsessed with Pakistan that you just picked up ISI, thats because those guys are doing a great job by not letting the enemy sleep.

    You did not see the atrocities being committed by your gora brothers, but they will and are paying the price for it.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    But the truth is that Pakistan is hand in gloves with Al-Qaeda and taliban and helping them kill American forces. You have been exposed. You are living on aids from US but you have shamelessly betrayed them.

    Jai Vaidya Reply:

    “Krishnamurty” you can try you r hand as well’

    Rajiv Reply:

    This Krishnamurti spells himself as ‘KHris..’

    I wonder where he learnt that spelling.

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    So Rajiv you are going to teach me the spelling of my name. What a moron you are?

    Rajeev Reply:

    The spelling of your name is ‘AZHAR HUSSEIN’ :)

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Vinodji,

    Do you think Zardari will go and what would be the dispensation if he does. A Nawaz Sharif govt or is it back to army rule?

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    Dear Vijay,
    I don’t see Zardari going anytime soon. He seems to have bought his peace with the Army by leaving Indo-Pak, Afpak and Pak-US issues to them. Nawaz Sharif’s open opposition to Army rule and even the extension Kayani got makes him much less popular with Rawalpindi— atleast for now.

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @To all those who care
    I have noticed for quite some time now that the language used by some regular visitors to this blog is progressively turning abusive. Many of them don’t even care to read the post. Their purpose is to hurl invectives rather than engaging in a meaningful debate. I have serious doubts, in fact, whether they are capable at all of a serious discourse.
    In defence of healthy debate and civility, I will, if this retrograde trend continues, be forced to expunge remarks falling in the category of pronographic nationalism (of whatever variety or colour). Banishment is the punishment they deserve—- some among them having taken loutish delight in driving out those who quit rather than be exposed to their pathetic idiom.

    abl Reply:

    Vinod sharma has a point. We should assist Pak Judiciary to prepare solid grounds for prosecution of the persons detained by them. May be their legal system will accept as valid evidence of our cops & officials. May be they will sentence the accused. It will all depend on what is the price they get from America for this gesture. Will it stop further plotting of Mumbai Like attacks fron across the border.
    We question the motives of Pakistan’s judiciary & the government. But what is the type of legal system we are projecting. We have gone through the country’s entire trial process in the case of Afzal Guru but have we been able to carry out the highest court’s verdict? Soon the same process will start for Qasab and there will be a mercy petition for him almost the same way as there is a mercy petition pending in Pakistan for one Indian named Harpal Singh. what about that ?
    Nothing is going to happen unless one the two countries either establishes its Diplomatic superiority on the negotiating table, or establishes its Military supremacy on yet another battlefield .
    only then the matters will come to some conclusion in favour of this country or that. Once this supremacy is established then only the back channel civilian diplomacy & brotherhood bogey will bring about an economic trade exchange which is the aim of globalisation, Kashmir issue, indus water sharing, saichen glacier etc.etc..
    Given our internal strife on each and every matter I have my doubts whether we can display any kind of supremacy over Pakistan. Given the facts that their arms and ammunition is coming free whereas we buy them with all the corruption at display. Given the fact that they have the backing of islamic world and allies like US, UK, China & others. We donot have the backing of the only Hindu regime like Nepal .
    So what are we talking about?

    vijay kumar Reply:

    @Vindoji,

    And I do care…

    You know your blog was gong on fine. WE had people like Usman from Pakistan and for that matter a few others, with whom you could disagree in civility.

    However when Azhar and Sal started coming here, things started taking a predictable boring turn.

    With Sal you can at least argue and try to show him your viewpoint, even though he is bound to reject it. That’s fine. It’s his perception of th truth and some unfortunate brainwashing.

    While Azhar is surely demolishing the quality of this blog. Probably not being very intelligent or articulate he just picks up negative and biased articles about India, cuts and posts them here. His idea is to occupy physical space so that the main topic of the blog is obliterated. And this becomes a forum of abuse.

    Well he may be excercising his internet blogging right, but his cut and paste jobs only make Indians think that most pakistanis will anyway dismiss all charges of terror training and try to fudge issues. He is a very poor ambassador of Pakistan !

    So I suggest the follwing changes

    a) No cut and paste. Maybe a link can be given. If there is a cut and paste job, it should be on the subject matter of the blog.

    b) All blogging enteries be restricted to 1000 words or less. As a journalist you probably know that if you cant express your thoughts in a thousand words, you will not be able to, even in a million.

    I would hate to put this idea in such a forum. But seeing the CUT & PASTE behaviour of one
    idiot, we cannot spoil the quality of this blog :) :)

    PS : err… Mr Sharma, I hope you are not against smiley icons now, since you too have used them,,,, :)

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    Dear Vijay,
    Your response and some very creative suggestions have given me hope. Thanks a tonne. Will you please on my behalf moderate a debate on the issue I have raised to come to an understanding on how best to express our views.
    I you agree to do that, I shall be grateful :) )

    shaikh salim Reply:

    thank you sharma sahib for the wise act.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Thanks Sharma Saheb for your intervention, though it was long due. Hopefully, some sort of discipline and better sense prevails.
    Regards
    BNA

    Rajiv Reply:

    If you don’t care, why do you and the Pakistani state keep arming, training and sending criminals like Kasav to India and also to other countries, from Afganistan to UK.

    All India wants is criminal Pakistanis like you and Kasav and ISI restrict themselves to Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar Soower Hussain

    i had expected that you p-a-k-i swine would surely spill out some bull s-h-i-t. now confirmed that your are an arsehole of a greater degree , you talk of India being a “rogue anti-minority” state , let me show you jacka$$ some light of logic

    1)- Sikhism is already recognised as separate religion in our constitution , and it was the Congress that had committed the massacre and not the ordinary Hindus. ordinary Hindus dont support any sort of communal violence against our minorities.

    2)- truth about Pakistan

    Hindu/Sikh population decreased from 30% in 1948 to 2-3% today as a result of forced mass conversions.

    atrocities on Hindus, Sikhs , Ahmediyas , Qadiyanis and Christians a daily and common occurence.

    ordinary Pakistani Muslim massess are fundamentalist to the core of their hearts , as one can easily speak bull s-h-i-t about non-Islamic minorities without getting punished

    all the atrocities are government perpetrated and supported by ordinary Pakistani swines such as yourself.

    when you bloody pakis , yourself do not respect the human rights of your own minorities , what the fuc-king right have you got to lecture us over this issue. you b@st@rds better improve your own record

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Another Cut and Paste facts for the blind and deaf : I suggest Paritush and Co can go and sign this petition

    STOP RELIGIOUS PROSECUTION!
    signatures: 20
    signature goal: 1,000
    post to facebookget the widgettweet thisemail your friends.Target: we ungently need at least 50, 000
    Sponsored by: THE BRITISH GOVERNEMT
    The RSS- Rashtriya Swaymsevak Sangh is a Hindu Extreamist Organisation in India and across the World..They aim to create a Hindu Superstate within India,they have openly Oppressed Sikhs,Muslims,Christians along with Dalits,GENOCIDE HAS BEEN CARRIED OUT ON ALL THESE MINORITIES WITHIN INDIA, Amnesty International and other groups document this http://www.awaazsaw.org/

    SIGN THE PETITIONS TO END THERE ACTIVITIES!!!!!!!!!!!

    Minorities are brutally killed by this group and their funding comes from Various sources across the UK.Groups such as Sewa International Hindu Swaymsevak Sangh,Bajrang Dal,and the VHP fund these groups openly.THEIR FUNDING NEEDS TO STOP,IF THE OPPRESION OF MUSLIMS ,SIKHS, CHRISTIANS, & DALITS(LOWER CASTE PEOPLE)IS TO END

    >>(This petition is on behalf of the british governemt & can only be
    signed by british citizen, all signitures on the government’s site will be presented to the Indian governemt )

    AS WELL AS SIGNING UP BELOW YOU MUST ALSO
    SIGN THIS PETION AT THE BRITISH GOVERNEMENT’S OFFICAL SITE

    FOR IT TO COUNT.

    SO PLEASE ALSO SIGN UP AT:
    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/bantherss/
    lessThe RSS- Rashtriya Swaymsevak Sangh is a Hindu Extreamist Organisation in India and across the World..They aim to create a Hindu Superstate within India,they have openly Oppressed Sikhs,Muslims,Christians along with Dalits,GENOCIDE HAS BEEN CARRIED OUT ON ALL THESE MINORITIES WITHIN INDIA, Amnesty International and other groups document this http://www.awaazsaw.org/

    SIGN THE PETITIONS TO END THERE ACTIVITIES!!!!!!!!!!!

    Minorities are brutally killed by this group and their funding comes from Various sources across the UK.Groups such as Sewa International Hindu Swaymsevak Sangh,Bajrang Dal,and the VHP fund these groups openly.THEIR FUNDING NEEDS TO STOP,IF THE OPPRESION OF MUSLIMS ,SIKHS, CHRISTIANS, & DALITS(LOWER CASTE PEOPLE)IS TO END

    >>(This petition is on behalf of the british governemt & can only be
    signed by british citizen, all signitures on the government’s site will be presented to the Indian governemt )

    AS WELL AS SIGNING UP BELOW YOU MUST ALSO
    SIGN THIS PETION AT THE BR… more

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Ajgar Hussain,

    Your comments are moronic and are liukely to be influenced by donkey, camels and horses, which you guys are sexually attracted to as google trends show,

    We dont want you here. We only want to study your mornic brain.

    Bye. U are unwelcome here. Live in Pakistan and become a suicide bomber against the world :)

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Did I touch a raw cord, vijay? Its been so long you saw yourself in mirror, that you have gotten urglier than you thaught you were Vijay.

    Look again you fools

    Muslims in India Encounter Intolerance, Scattered Violence

    With the strength of the Hindu nationalist political movement polarizing religious communities in India over the last two decades, the Muslim minority has faced socioeconomic marginalization and at times been targeted by violent attacks.

    When India was granted independence in 1947, and Pakistan split off to become a homeland for Muslims, India was set up as a secular country embracing pluralism. But that promise has not mirrored many minorities’ real-life experiences.

    “India is secular, so as a country they have celebrated their Muslims, but that does not usually apply to Indians themselves,” said Meenakshi Ganguly, a Human Rights Watch researcher who has lived and worked in India for more than three years.

    As the Bharatiya Janata Party, a Hindu nationalist party, gained momentum in the 1980s and then won the parliamentary majority from 1998 through 2004, “there was a campaign of hate that we still haven’t seen the end of,” Ganguly said.

    “The BJP embraces, and has always embraced, the ideology of Hindu nationalism, which fundamentality believes that Hindus are the owners of the nation, and Muslims have a history of disloyalty and should not be given any privileges,” said Ashutosh Varshney, a political science professor at the University of Michigan, and an expert on ethnic conflict in India.

    While the party no longer holds the majority in parliament, it is still one of the most popular in the country and some states are still BJP run because of India’s federal system. The experience of Muslims living in these states, including Gujarat, can be vastly different than those in other regions of the country.

    “In South India, Muslims are more prosperous, less fearful. In North India it is more dangerous,” said Theodore Wright, political science professor emeritus at State University of New York at Albany, who studies Muslims in India.

    The outsiders within
    At the time of partition, many Muslims chose to stay in India instead of moving to Pakistan for economic reasons, because they could not afford to make the long move or because of Indian nationalist sentiment.

    “The creation of Pakistan meant that Muslims became the ‘other’,” said Ali Asani, a Harvard University professor of Indo-Muslim languages and culture. “Those Muslims that stayed back in India have always had this label.”

    In November 2006, a report commissioned by the Indian government on the status of the country’s Muslims, who are the largest religious minority and make up 13.4 percent of the population, found that they had fallen behind even the lowest caste of Hindus, known as untouchables, in socio-economic indicators in some states.

    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s office summarized the findings of the report, saying the Muslim population is “relatively poor, more illiterate, has lower access to education, lower representation in public- and private-sector jobs.”

    In urban areas, Muslims are mostly relegated to “slums characterized by poor municipal infrastructure,” the statement said. Much of the ghettoization seen in cities occurred when Muslims fled Hindu areas after incidents of violence.

    The report issued recommendations to improve the status of Muslims, including establishing an Equal Opportunity Commission, and creating diversity incentives for education, employment and housing.

    The Union Minister for Minority Affairs approved some of the recommendations in August 2007, but they have yet to be implemented.

    Communal violence
    Communal violence between Hindus and Muslims has deep roots in India and was particularly bad around the partition. Politically motivated riots aimed at Muslims intensified in the last decade as Hindu nationalist popularity grew.

    The violence hit a high in 2002, when a train carrying Hindu activists was attacked by a Muslim mob and 58 were killed in a fire on the train. The incident set off riots around the country and as many as 2,000 Muslims were killed in Gujarat, the U.S. State Department’s 2003 Report on International Religious Freedom documented.

    In March 2006, a government commission determined the train fire was an accident rather than a Muslim conspired crime.

    Regional experts and academics now refer to the violence that followed as a pogrom.

    “The big-scale riots were state sponsored. There was deliberate targeting of Muslim stores and Muslim homes,” said Human Rights Watch’s Ganguly.

    In the aftermath of the 2002 riots, India’s National Human Rights Commission and the Supreme Court criticized the government of Gujarat for its weak prosecution of Hindus implicated in the violence.

    Incidents of violence often are politically motivated with the goal of winning votes from Hindus or intimidating Muslims, but they are set off by an event such as the slaughter of a cow or an inter-faith couple eloping, said Wright.

    At least every month, there is a new attack, Ganguly said. And the failure of the state to prosecute attacks by Hindus exacerbates the problem, she added.

    “It feeds into Muslim anger. There are attacks by Muslims as well, but as a state you need to provide a sense of justice that the laws apply to all,” she said.

    In more recent incidents, the government has tried to fend off such riots. When terrorists attacked Hindu temples at the disputed site of Ayodhya and Varanasi in 2005, the government quickly spoke out to discourage riots by Hindus.

    Christians and other minorities
    Violence is not limited to Muslims and Hindus. The Christian population, which makes up about 2.3 percent of the country, has also been targeted by Hindus, and missionaries have been attacked sporadically.
    “The argument is that [Christians] proselytize … that, according to Hindu nationalist ideology, must be vigorously fought,” said Varshney.

    In 2006, the U.S. State Department’s India Religious Freedom Report stated, “Some Hindu organizations and others frequently alleged that Christian missionaries lured converts, particularly from the lower castes, with offers of free education and health care.”

    Other reports show that Christians have been the target of forced conversions or re-conversions by Hindus. In 2005, the National Commission for Minorities asked the governments of Rajasthan and Maharashtra to stop forced reconversions in a response to attacks on Christians and a social boycott against Christians who didn’t convert.

    Smaller religious minorities in India, such as Buddhists and Sikhs, have had little issue with Hindus in recent years, in part because the religions are considered closer to Hinduism. While the federal government has publicly recognized and spoken about the need to give religious minorities more access to education and job opportunities, as well as protection from violence, the state and local governments are often not in line with the federal ideals, said Asani.

    “There is recognition there is a problem. There have been committees and reports, sometimes the courts have even ruled, but the federal government tends to find its hands politically tied,” said Asani.

    – By Talea Miller, Online NewsHour

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    :) :) :) :) Pasted above is a comment ny a fanatic pakistani who cannot appreciate secularism of India and tries to ruin it so that India becomes a hopeless terror infected state like Pakistan :) :)

    [Reply]

    Jai Vaidya Reply:

    Azhar
    The least you can do is take three lakh Bihari who are pleading to be let int Pakistan.Stop shedding crocodile tears for Indian Muslims,the Urdu speaking mohajirs are second clss citizens.The Shias of Balawaristan have the new constitutional trap,they have rejected it,they want Pakistan out of the “northern areas”.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    It is heartening to hear of voices like Dr Shah Alam. It only reinforces the basic strength of our country,

    Coming back to the main question raised in the blog, I hope India does not get trapped in a muddle to give justice to Kasab, if the Pakistani courts deliberately drag him in the picture and then try to insinuate that India is unfair to this killer Pakistani.

    I think we should all ignore Ajgar Hussain. He is trying to mess up this blog by doing cut and paste and to occupy physical space so that the main issues raised here are lost.

    If he hs some humanity.. he should immediately help the Baluchis in pakistan and the Shias, Ahemadiyas, Qadianis, Sikhs, Hindus by coming back to Pakistan and stop cleaning utensils/ bartan of the goras in the USA.. Cut and paste reflects his low IQ. Nothing original to say but keep repeating lies.

    Tommorrow he is welcome to paste a full 32 page copy of Hafeez Saeed speech. A psychiatrist can only
    comclude that it is a reflection of his brainwashed low IQ brain :) :)

    PS: Delhi zoo would welcome Ajgar Hussain :)

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Isn’t Dr Khan’s words also applicable to you my friend?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Zardari had no credability, and all of PPP condidates have lost that too. To be honest all parties have lost credability, and from these ashes new leadership will emerge. There are lots of educated and pragmatic leaders who not associated with these useless leaders, who can fill the gap.

    Rajeev Reply:

    So Pakistan has lost all credability.

    Rajiv Reply:

    So may I know, what will the policies of the ‘new leadership in Pakistan that emerges from the ashes’ , will look like ?

    vijay kumar Reply:

    :) :) :) PASTED BELOW IS A CUT AND PASTE JOB BY A PAKISTANI CALLED AJGAR HUSSAIN WHO CANNOT FATHOM THE SECULAR, DEMOCRACTI NATURE OF INDIA ::) :) :)

    ——————————————————————————————————————-

    :) :) :) JEALOUS MORON AJGAR WILL TRY TO MAKE INDIA SOUND AS BAD AS EVIL PAKISTAN :) :)

    —————————————————————————————————————

    {) :) :) READ HIM TO UNDERSTRAND WHY PAKISTAN IS A FALIED STATE :) :) :)

    [Reply]

  • http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com Shah Alam Khan

    Dear Azhar Sahib,
    Thanks for your hateful remarks. To begin let me make it clear that at no point in my commnets have I said that “everything is fine and dandy in India” but yes everything is not surely as bleak as in Pakistan (at least we are made to feel this by your competent courts and the government of the day). Having said this, let me tell you that our judicial system differentiates on the basis of class not religion as you have tried to make it look like. It is pretty much the same as in your adopted country (the USA) Mr Azhar. I wrote an article “The Curious Case of Vikram Buddhi” and if you read it with an open mind you will understand I mean (you can find it on my blog) . I know of many poor Hinuds who have been denied justice and then there are equal number of wealthy Muslims who despite their clear offences have been let go by the courts of the land.
    As for bracketing me with other Indians, I couldn’t have asked for anything more- this is what is required of all Muslims of India (assimilation with the mainstream). Having said this there is a minor difference amongst some of us, I had a lucrative career in the UK which I gave up to come back to where I belong; some of those you have bracketted me with are still in the US (like you) and the UK and claim to be more Indian than me….no problems, with people like Vinod Sharmaji I have a lot of hope.
    Azhar sahib the choice between hate and love is limited. We reap what we sow. Please try to come to this blog with an open mind. Feel the difference which Vinod Sharmaji tries to cultivate…I can only say that you, as a Pakistani and as a human being should not make his task (of defending peace) even more difficult. The choice is entirely yours.
    Truly,
    Dr.Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Dr Shahib my comments are hateful to you but you cannot see the hate writtten by the irrugalars on this blog. No where in any of the Sharmas blog have I defend Pakistan and what is going onat present. You guys are gleefully posting hateful posts about Pakistan and Islam and yes I will stand up and defend my religion and country. And also all I am doing posting articles which truley depict your country and like you guys. I don’t who gave you guys the idea to look at Pakistan purly in indain eyes. You have to look at the situation with a geo-political perspective adn not in isolation, situation around Pakistan, the rest is all lies. Lot of family members have gone back to Pakistan and they don’t want to come back and I understand that. Having said lots of problems have been created by our inept political and religious leadership.

    As far as sharma’s blog goes, regardless of what the topic is your fellow compatriots bring it to the level of hatred of Pakistan and Islam. I understand being any Indian you can join in anger against Pakistan, I don’t see you guys defending your faith either. I see this all the time in the USA as well. To polish your secular credentials, you guys are even unable to defend your religion without being cowed down by these hindu fanatics. Nows thats a pathetic way to live, would you not agree.

    [Reply]

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Azhar sahib,
    The hate on this blog is condemnable- either by you or by others. What I gather from your remarks is the fact that you get easily provoked by some of the comments on this blog. Be honest and tell me if the provokation for you is beyond what Vinod Sharma ji faces? Does he go all out condemning religous ideologies or individuals? I take note of your remarks on Islam. So you think we “Secular Muslim Indians”do not defend Islam enough from Hindu fanatics? Azhar defend Islam from what? Why? I live in India. I work with people who consider me as part of their extended families. I agree there is a lunatic fringe of ten percent (may be less) who hates as much as you do (with due respect). But this fringe is not strong enough to even vote back fanatic parties to power. It is this fear of destruction of one’s ethos and religious ideologies which generates people like Kasab. Please get over this. Do you know that there are more Hindus across mazaars and darghas in India than Muslims?
    Let me narrate to you an anecdote from the Gujarat riots. One of my Muslim friend happened to be in Surat when the riots broke out. I emailed to him a few times without any reply. A common Hindu friend from Ahemadabad also enquired. Finally I got a one sentence email from the Muslim bloke. It said: I am alive. I forwarded this mail to my Hindu friend. His instant reply was: I am ashamed to be alive.
    I hope you understand what all this means. As for Vinod Sharmaji’s blog, it represents a variegated section of the society. I agree there are good, bad and the ugly visiting this blog. So what? The soul of the blog remains pristine. He is committed to peace between India and Pakistan and he stands to defend it what may come. I can only hope that you see some reason in all this…..reason to drain away hate. Believe me, you have to visit India once to feel what all this means. In the end I would like to quote what a famous Urdu poet had once said:

    Har ek chehare ko zakhmon kaa aaiinaa na kaho
    Ye zindagii to hai rahamat ise sazaa na kaho
    Na jaane kaun sii majaburiyon kaa qaidii ho
    Vo saath chhod gayaa hai to bevafaa na kaho

    Truly,
    Dr.Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    “I agree there is a lunatic fringe of ten percent (may be less) who hates as much as you do (with due respect).” Wrong assesment all I am doing hear is showing you guys the face you guys try to hide. And Dr. Shah nobody supports the Taliban lunatics in Pakistani either and the religious parties hardly ever win in elections, that proves something.

    Is Anyone Listening?

    After sixty-two years of enforcing military occupation, with particular reference to the last twenty years, one of the government of India’s worst fears is being realised. It is now faced with non-violent mass protests (commonly known as the Kashmiri intifada) in entire Jammu and Kashmir. This is nourished by people’s memory of years of Indian repression in which tens of thousands have been killed, hundreds of thousands tortured, injured, molested, raped, and disappeared.

    In the recent past the 27 countries European Parliament overwhelmingly passed an urgency resolution on Nameless & Mass Graves discovered in Indian Held Kashmir calling on the Indian government in paragraph 5 “…to investigate all a llegations of enforced disappearances” and via paragraph 9 “calls for full access to be granted to both sides of the Line of Control for the UN Special Rapporteurs under the terms of reference of the UN special procedures, notably the Special Rapporteurs on Torture and on Extra Judicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions and the UN Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances”.

    Not surprisingly, the voice the government of India does not want the outside world to hear and, as such, has tried so hard to silence in Kashmir has massed to a deafening roar. “Raised in a playground of army camps, checkpoints and bunkers with screams from torture chambers for the soundtrack, the young generation has suddenly discovered the power of mass protest, and above all, the dignity of being able to straighten their shoulders and speak for themselves and represent themselves. For them it is nothing more than epiphany. Not even the fear of death seems to hold them back. And once that fear has gone, of what use is the largest or second largest army in the world.”

    Why India is always prepared to face, to say the least, embarrassment on account of “holding” Kashmir? The answer lay in the distorted politics of the past sixty-two years on Kashmir. In particular, over the last two decades Indian government has been plagued by weak coalitions, patronage and corruption with little or no emphasis on addressing the Kashmiri conflict.

    Whereas India needs to recognise that the road to peace and stability in South Asia runs through Kashmir, however, at the same time it also needs to come to terms with the fact that the terror problem within is home grown. India has a political problem with its Hindu fundamentalists and minorities – the strongest being 150 million Muslims amounting to some 13% of the Indian population. “They are unrepresented at every economic, political and social level with a high profile exceptions. A perverse consequence of the partition of the Indian sub-continent is that Muslims are everywhere a minority – which closes off the chance of political power… They have not shared in the progress of the last two decades and face a Hindu nationalist movement, parts of which are ugly and violent.”

    Ugly and violent in terms of the bloody Gujarat riots of 2002 in which hundreds of Muslims (Men, Women and Children) were burned alive in their own homes, the Malegaon blast of 2006, Samjhauta Express bombing of 2007 and the Bombay riots of 1993 besides hundreds of communal riots up and down the country over the last six decades. Even the killing of anti-terrorism chief Hemant Karkare and his two associates is being questioned by no person than a cabinet minister in the indian government namely A. R. Antulay. Undoubtedly, this second class treatment and the persistent accusations has led Muslims angry; fearful, frustrated thereby losing faith in the Indian democratic institutions – a classic example being already experimented with draconian laws like the POTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act) which primarily targeted alone and only Indian Muslims.

    India needs to be told that the Kashmiris have paid a huge price for its intransigence over Kashmir, with an estimated 90,000 dead, 8000 enforced disappearances, thousands of molestations and rapes, unlawful detentions, tortures, with curfews and shutdowns as an every day norm; how much longer can the government of India turn a blind eye to its conscience?

    If, as the Indian government claims, the perpetrators of the outrage in Mumbai were motivated in part by the policies of India in Kashmir then indeed, it is time for a change of policy; not only for the sake of the people of Kashmir but for the sake of the innocent civilians that lost their lives during those days of violence in Mumbai. The killing of civilians is never right and should be condemned and two wrongs do not make a right.

    So is it not about time that Indians across the country (be it ordinary citizens, civil society, NGOs, politicians etc) take to the streets to protest against the gross Human Rights violations that their government is committing in Kashmir; condemn and denounce publicly these atrocities by the active engagement of their more than half a million well equipped military and para-military forces; pronounce as Indians – no more murdering and raping of defenceless Kashmiri Men, Women and Children which has only brought shame to India and its citizens; and declare that we (Indians) stand with our Kashmiri brothers and sisters in their pain and suffering and in their just struggle for their political right to self-determination

    Indians and the government of India need to be persuaded to see the virtue of a political solution to Kashmir. Indeed such an approach will have enduring effect on India politically, economically and diplomatically. Jammu & Kashmir, It might be said, is the Alsace-Lorraine of Europe (substituting India & Pakistan for France & Germany). It has sparked three conventional wars between the two countries. No one can take the risk of their fourth encounter bearing in mind their nuclear capabilities. Resolving Kashmir can turn back the nuclear clock in South-Asia.

    India’s panicky but provocative behaviour may undermine the good work which the two governments of Pakistan and India have undertaken over the years to stabilise their neighbourly relations. It could even turn nasty.

    More importantly, there are three powerful organisations that have debated and adopted resolutions on the Kashmir issue. Firstly, the United Nations Security Council passed a resolution on the conflict in 1948 affirming that the people of Jammu and Kashmir are to determine their own political future through “a fair and impartial plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations.” This was followed by other resolutions. Secondly, the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), representing fifty-six Muslim countries around the globe, endorsed the Kashmiris right to self-determination at their heads of state summit in Casablanca in 1993. Thirdly, the EU Parliament similarly upheld the Kashmiri plebiscite with the adoption of its report on Kashmir in May 2007.

    So what can be expected from the community of nations around the globe? The people of Jammu & Kashmir say fulfill the promises made to them by the international community at various levels i.e. their right to self-determination; protection and promotion of their human rights pursuant to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Is it not fair to ask why the international community is slow particularly at the level of violence going on there. Is anyone listening?

    President Barack Obama of the USA stated that his administration would encourage India to solve the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan in the interest of peace and security in that region. The Obama administration needs to move with dispatch on multiple fronts with relation to India, Pakistan and Kashmir: impressing India to accept as a fate accompli third party mediation (not forgetting that India is seeking active facilitation of the US on the Mumbai blasts) by appointing a special representative on Kashmir, fashioning a new direction designed to address the Kashmir conflict and bolstering cordial relations between India and Pakistan.

    Undoubtedly Barack Obama has the opportunity to create more enduring alliances in South Asia and the negotiation and resolution of the Kashmir conflict is the key to that.

    Majid Tramboo
    A. Majid Tramboo, Chairman of International Council for Human Rights Kashmir Centre, was confirmed by the ICHR’s Board of Directors in April 2003 , following their unanimous decision to open the Kashmir Centre in Brussels. Keenly aware of the long and bitter suffering of the people of Kashmir, Barrister Tramboo ensured that this project moved from conception to realization with remarkable speed. Within six months, Barrister Tramboo hosted the official ceremonies to open the ICHR Kashmir Centre before an audience of MEPs, MPs and Embassy representatives various countries, European Commission and Council personnel, international scholars, NGOs, and media as well as otherdistinguished guests.

    Barrister, Majid Tramboo divides his time between Brussels and London, where in 1999, he founded and continues to head the law firm of Tramboo & Company, practising exclusively in immigration, asylum, nationality and human rights matters. His distinguished legal career began in 1983 at the Jammu and Kashmir High Court where he practised in conducting civil and criminal litigation. In 1988, he served as in-house Counsel for conducting civil litigation and immigration, asylum and nationality matters, which included appearing before adjudicators and the Immigration Appeal Tribunal for Khambati & Sohal , Solicitors in London.

    In 1990 he accepted a position with the United Kingdom Immigration Advisory Service (UKIAS), London, as a Tribunal Counsellor, where he reviewed cases dismissed by adjudicators, settled grounds for leave to appeal and represented appeals before the Immigration Appeal Tribunal. As the Head of Legal Services for Immigration Advisory Service (IAS) , London, in 1994, he provided training to the legal staff, this included preparing training manuals and up-to-date, in-house law reports (including commentaries on new rules, regulations and case law). Additionally, he assessed the competence of the legal staff, in terms of the preparation and presentation of cases, which involved intricate points of law before the Immigration Appeal Tribunal, adjudicators and special adjudicators. Barrister Tramboo was the senior partner of the Tramboo Partnership, a London law firm established 1996 that practised exclusively in immigration, asylum, nationality and human rights matters.

    A multilingual person, Majid Tramboo, graduated from the University of Kashmir, received his LLB from the University of Bombay and was called to the Honourable Society of Bar at Lincoln’s Inn, London, having successfully completed the examinations conducted through the Council of Legal Education in London.

    A committed human rights activist, Barrister Tramboo advocates causes for all people without distinction of any kind. Member of the International Human Rights Association of American Minorities directorate he is IHRAAM’s Representative at the UN Commission on Human Rights. Born Kashmiri, Barrister Tramboo has long championed the Kashmir people’s right to selfdetermination internationally.

    European Parliament Resolution on

    Sal Reply:

    Dr Shah Alam Khan

    Look at the people in this blog only and their hatred towards muslims & Islam. I am not mentioning their names but if you you go through, you will find them very easily. So is this difficult for any one to understand how these people treat muslims in their normal daily life when these fanatics cannot even hide their deep hatred towards muslims.

    You will not even find a single Pakistani who has abused hindusim in the name of India here in this blog. No one has touched hindusim here.

    But your countrymen (Hindus) bring Islam and then start abusing Islam in the name of Pakistan.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dear Azhar & Sal,

    Do you guys mind if i jump in? I understand the vigor and emotions to defend your position but please give a second thought on some words of wisdom from Dr Khan. Let us engage with good reasons and with message of love across the gate. I do hope there are many more besides the lunatic fringe who would see Pakistan prosper and out of current mess. Those who rant, speak for themself and hardly makes any positive contribution and difference to geo-political situation.

    Best Regards,
    Usman
    Lahore, Pakistan

    vijay kumar Reply:

    @Dr Anand

    Did u get my mail? And whatg comments….

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Yes sir, I got your mail. I have forwarded it to about a dozen of my friends. I also forwarded to Barkha as well.
    As I mentioned earlier, theoretically it looks to be a feasible solution. Hopefully, the political class also is convinced. With a myopic thinking and selfish political ends of these people, I have my doubts. But we must persist with it.
    Thanks
    BNA

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Vijay and others,
    Please ignore follower of Zaid hamid, Azhar Hussein. He has been brainwashed thruout his life and he will never see truth how hard you all try.

    I have seen likes of him for many years. All they post is propaganda and hatred against non-sunnis and non-pakistanis.

    Ignore the d*u*mba*s*s.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Advise to you guys read the articles and learn, instead of abuse.

    I told you guys were urgier than you thing you are.

    More factual cut and paste to follow for the blind.

    [Reply]

  • Jai Vaidya

    I should clrify ,I meant Bihari Urdu speaking Muslims that you abandoned in East Pakistan

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Custodial deaths and torture in India

    1. On 30 August 2003, police arrested Mr Babu, aged 37 years, of Kallur Village, Mukundapuram Thaluk, Thrissur, Kerala. They took him from his house without telling him why. His wife tried to bail him out, but the bail was refused. On September 2, Babu died. The police claim that he died of cardiac arrest, but the evidence reveals otherwise. Thirteen injuries on his body indicate that he died because of police torture. In spite of his repeated requests for medical attention when he was produced before the court, and visible injuries, he was denied any. His family is too afraid to file a complaint against the police officers.

    2. The sort of torture inflicted on Mr Babu is routinely practiced at police stations in India. Unchallenged and unopposed, it has become ‘normal’ and ‘legitimate’. Custodial deaths, disappearances and rape in custody are rampant. Police even torture persons on receipt of bribes. Torture of this kind results in death, as in the above case, as well as permanent disabilities and mental trauma.

    3. The police torture not only suspects, but also any person close to a victim who is unfortunate enough to attract their attention. They also torture people in order to fabricate cases. They save influential and wealthy offenders by implicating innocent people and torturing them until a ‘confession’ is obtained. The Asian Legal Resource Centre is this year making a separate written statement to the Commission on how the Government of India is attempting to introduce reforms that will strengthen the legality of such ‘confessions’. It is also submitting written statements on how torture is used as a tool of state-sponsored discrimination against entire communities of people, particularly indigenous people.

    4. The communal and caste divide in India is closely linked with torture. The police or other state institutions are directly involved in most of the communally charged violence. The massacre of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002 is one example, on which the Asian Legal Resource Centre has submitted separate written statements this year and last (E/CN.4/2003/NGO/148). In these situations, torture is widespread, unaccounted for and not prosecuted. It contributes to total anarchy and the rule of lawlessness. When police become a party to such violence, it becomes a state-sponsored crime against the people. Therefore, the fight against communalism and caste should start with the fight against torture.

    5. The judiciary has tried to address torture in India, however, its involvement is limited to select cases and many instances of torture go unreported. The courts cannot attend to every reported case of torture. Local courts often also deny remedies due to the ignorance of judges. The lack of legislation outlawing torture is another reason. Since there is no specific law preventing torture, and since the law of damages is not often applied in torture cases, even if compensation is awarded it is paltry.

    6. The National and the State Human Rights Commissions have no authority to change this situation. There is no independent body to inquire into reported cases of torture. Commission judgements are mere recommendations and are often ignored. Where torture is state-sponsored, the recommendations never get executed, such as in the case of the Gujarat Massacre and government-sponsored atrocities against tribal groups in Kerala. The Human Rights Act is just eyewash for the international community; as it cannot be enforced it is meaningless.

    7. India has signed the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT), but not ratified it on the pretext that existing laws have adequate provisions to prevent torture, in addition to constitutional safeguards. But the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Code, Indian Evidence Act and Indian Penal Code are worthless, since there is no procedure for independent inquiry and compensation of victims. In cases of torture where they too may be implicated, magistrates order police to investigate one another, thereby destroying all credibility and public faith in the judicial system. Apart from this, the government has now implemented new draconian laws like the Prevention of Terrorism Act, which literally takes away any guarantees of fair trial for the accused. Constitutional remedies too are meaningless for most victims. The constitutional courts are virtually inaccessible to ordinary folk, and even if a victim is successful in getting a case heard, they usually experience delays. Furthermore, the recent approach of these courts is to disallow any claims for compensation, directing the victim to claim damages through a civil suit. In short, if a victim of torture in India has a strong case and enough will, she may get some limited redress from the courts after 20 years. The lack of motivated lawyers and legal assistance, and a defective prosecution system, do nothing to alleviate this situation. India has not ratified the Optional Protocol to the CAT, thereby preventing its citizens from making individual complaints to the Committee against Torture when they feel they have no effective domestic remedies.

    8. As for Babu’s widow and her children, all of this is now immaterial. The police tortured her husband to death. Her children may have to leave school and help their mother find some food for the family lest they starve to death. Their father’s murderers are still in service, and some are due for promotion. While their case is raised at the Commission, Babu’s family will be working in inhuman conditions to get enough food for the day. Not the Constitution of India, existing laws, the courts nor government institutions have come to their rescue.

    9. The Asian Legal Resource Centre therefore recommends that the Commission, and in particular the Committee against Torture,

    a. Insist that the Government of India take immediate steps to prevent torture in custody by making police at the rank of officers in charge of stations and above accountable for every case of violence in custody, and hold them personally liable.

    b. Urge the Government of India to inquire into the death of Babu, take steps to punish the perpetrators and compensate the family according to international standards without delay.

    c. Pressure the Government of India to ratify the CAT at once. To date, there have been very few efforts to this end from the international community. Persuasive attempts to ratify a convention have in the past yielded results. In the case of India, there should be more done to see that it fulfils this important international obligation, upon which the Commission must closely monitor compliance to see that the CAT is speedily brought into domestic law. This would amount to the introduction of new legislation and repealing of any provisions contrary to its spirit.

    d. Provide the means and encouragement for India’s National Human Rights Commission to conduct independent inquiries in alleged cases of torture, and enforce its findings.

    e. Encourage the Government of India to refrain from using the police as a tool of repression against minorities and political opponents.

    Posted on 2004-03-31
    Back to [ALRC Press Releases - 2004]

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Azhar, ( or should I refer as the criminal , bigoted Pakistani )
    We have our courts and governments to punish bad people. There are crimes committed in every country. What seperates civilized countries from criminal states from Pakistan, is that how does the state react to criminals )

    In Pakistan, its the Islamic stater of Pakistan, which is the criminal itself.

    In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, its the state that trains the terrorists.
    In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, its the state itself that makes laws to terrorize the minorities.

    But you need little more than fake degrees to understand the difference.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    As an example :
    I wonder who made the laws in Pakistan to

    1. prohibit moinorities from becoming President, PM ?

    Did some criminals like Taleban or Azhar do it or
    the Government of Pakistan do it ??????????????

    2. Who trained criminals like Kasav ?
    Did criminals like Taleban , Azhar do it or the Government of Pakistan through ISI/ARMY do it ???

    Who is the criminal here ?

    Some fringe elements that can be found in any countery or the majority itself ?

    Just some bad people in Pakistan

    or

    The state of Pakistan itself ?

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    There is no end to your nonsense Rajiv. This is what happens when you don’t look in the mirror, you can’t catch the increase in your own ugliness. Thats the problem you indians face.

    Rajiv another factual cut and paste just for you.

    1. Caste-based Discrimination in India

    COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
    Sixty-first session
    Item 6 of the provisional agenda

    RACISM, RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, XENOPHOBIA AND ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION

    Written statement submitted by the Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC),
    a non-governmental organisation in general consultative status

    Caste-based discrimination in India

    1. The tsunami that hit countries around the Indian Ocean on 26 December 2004 brought misery to all living along their coasts. India was no exception. However, in India, the sufering of Dalit – so-called ‘untouchable’ – communities affected by the disaster has been exacerbated due to caste-based discrimination in the provision of relief supplies and other assistance. The world is unaware and the Government of India has not acknowledged that relief operations are being carried out with caste as a determining factor.

    2. Places such as Kadapakuppam and Pattipulam of the Kachipuram district in Tamil Nadu have received no relief whatsoever. This is despite 175 families in Kadapakuppam and 280 families in Pattipulam having felt the brunt of the disaster. Despite complaints by villagers in these two places, at the time of writing no government officials or aid agencies have gone to the assistance of these people. Likewise, in Pannanthittu village of Tamil Nadu’s Chidambaram Thaluka, all 150 families affected by the tsunami have been denied aid and. Villagers in MGR Thattu, meanwhile, protest that they are being discriminated against, as little relief has been provided to them.

    3. Caste-based discrimination has also been evident in relief operations elsewhere. When burying the dead, Dalits have been brought in to handle the bodies, as ‘traditionally’ they have been obligated to do. Community kitchens, established to distribute food to victims, were divided into two: one for caste Indians and one for Dalits, as upper castes would not consume food prepared by Dalits. It is a sad reality that even in times of extreme necessity caste prejudices dominate social exchanges.

    4. The tsunami relief operations in South India are indicative of persistent caste discrimination throughout the country. In the state of Maharastra massive evictions from tribal lands in Nasik District have been witnessed in the recent past. If the claim for land by the Maharastra State Farming Cooperation deprived the basic right of the tribal community in Maharastra, in West Bengal, the eviction from Bellilious Park was because of the apprehension that the presence of Dalits would pollute the shrine atmosphere of the upper caste in the locality. In West Bengal even the High Court affixed its seal of approval for the eviction ignoring the basic legal virtue of fare hearing of audi alteram partum. However evictions do not remain as the one and only form of discrimination. The forced labour of manual scavenging and carrying of night soil, slave practices in granite quarries in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, denial of education in Orrisa, starvation deaths in Maharastra, Bihar and Kerala are all shocking realities for the Dalits in India, and their position in the caste societal structure.

    5. The caste system is a powerful tool for social segregation. It runs deep in the minds of Indians and has implications in everyday life. It weakens the human urge to excel and liberate since there is little chance of rising above one’s status at birth. Despite caste being a violation of international human rights standards and domestic law prohibiting caste-based discrimination it continues to exercise a debilitating influence on the lives of millions in India daily.

    6. The Constitution of India provides certain safeguards against caste discrimination. However, the constitutional remedy is often inaccessible to Dalits and lower castes, therefore literally taking away the equality quotient of human rights in terms of implementation. Considering India’s vastness and its limited resources and poverty, the possibility of a victim, who is otherwise deprived of basic standards of living, approaching a constitutional court is most unlikely. Compounded by the burden of expenses in litigation and the immense time it takes for reaching a final verdict, such legal attempts are rarely taken by victims.

    7. The Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act 1989 criminalises atrocities committed against members of the Dalit community and other lower castes. The rules formulated in accordance with the legislation also provide for protection to the lower castes and are more preventive in nature. However, the law and rules are limited. They do not address the root cause: the caste system itself. In cases where compensation is awarded, the amount of damages is far below international standards.

    8. Section 153A of the Indian Penal Code, which provides for punishment for instigating acts of enmity between groups based on religion, race, place of birth, residence and language all but unenforceable since the burden of proof in criminal trials is so high. The chances of a probable conviction are low.

    9. The national and state-level human rights commissions do not have any authority to take affirmative action when receiving a complaint, be it of caste-based discrimination or otherwise. The powers of these institutions are not legally enforceable. Sections 12 and 13 of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act limit the authority of the rights commissions to receipt of complaints, inquiries and inspection. They can then chose to either refer the matter to the appropriate authority for further action or provide advice to the government. This limitation makes the institutions incapable of protecting human rights. Their orders are limited to recommending the government collect a fine from a perpetrator and disburse an amount to the victim. If the perpetrator is not an employee of the government, the possibility that the order will be implemented is low. Even when the perpetrator is a government employee the order is often not executed. This makes a mockery of the system and discourages victims from approaching these institutions.

    10. India has limited its ratification of international covenants to the key instruments. It has opted out of protocols giving authority to independent committees to receive individual complaints. Hence, victims of human rights violations in India must find redress within the country, where the remedies are inadequate or unachievable.

    11. The Asian Legal Resource Centre therefore recommends the Commission to pressure the Government of India to

    a. Acknowledge that caste-based discrimination is deeply institutionalised in India and must be stopped.

    b. Make appropriate amendments to existing domestic laws so as to incorporate and implement the spirit of international conventions, particularly the Convention against Racial Discrimination.

    c. Provide effective remedies and adequate compensation for cases of caste discrimination under domestic legal mechanisms.

    d. Stop forthwith any illegal actions through its agencies directed against lower castes and Dalits in India.

    e. Withdraw forthwith its reservations made to international conventions so that anyone can approach international bodies for redress of grievances on failures of domestic law-enforcing agencies to uphold their rights.

    f. Take immediate steps through committed actions to educate the public and judicial bodies on caste-based discrimination and attendant rights violations.

    Posted on 2005-02-17
    Back to [Written Statements - 61st Session of the CHR - 2005]

    [Reply]

  • Arun Khrishnamurty

    Rajiv post something useful, nothing but useless information comes out of you guys

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    And you are Arun Krishnamurty ;)

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar Soower Hussain

    chup kar oye khusre !!

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Paritush did I touch a raw nerve

    This ones for you cow dung nd till yo guys can correct this injustise you S–’s are in position to talk but you have the right to bark.

    India’s “Untouchables” Face Violence, DiscriminationHillary Mayell
    for National Geographic News

    June 2, 2003
    More than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.

    Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.

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    “Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls,” said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India’s “Untouchables.” Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.

    India’s Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

    Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits, according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.

    Crime Against Dalits

    Statistics compiled by India’s National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

    No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

    “There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes,” said Narula.

    That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

    Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

    Since then, the violence has escalated, largely as a result of the emergence of a grassroots human rights movement among Dalits to demand their rights and resist the dictates of untouchability, said Narula.

    Enforcement of laws designed to protect Dalits is lax if not non-existent in many regions of India. The practice of untouchability is strongest in rural areas, where 80 percent of the country’s population resides. There, the underlying religious principles of Hinduism dominate.

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    Hindus believe a person is born into one of four castes based on karma and “purity”—how he or she lived their past lives. Those born as Brahmans are priests and teachers; Kshatriyas are rulers and soldiers; Vaisyas are merchants and traders; and Sudras are laborers. Within the four castes, there are thousands of sub-castes, defined by profession, region, dialect, and other factors.

    Untouchables are literally outcastes; a fifth group that is so unworthy it doesn’t fall within the caste system.

    Although based on religious principles practiced for some 1,500 years, the system persists today for economic as much as religious reasons.

    Because they are considered impure from birth, Untouchables perform jobs that are traditionally considered “unclean” or exceedingly menial, and for very little pay. One million Dalits work as manual scavengers, cleaning latrines and sewers by hand and clearing away dead animals. Millions more are agricultural workers trapped in an inescapable cycle of extreme poverty, illiteracy, and oppression.

    Although illegal, 40 million people in India, most of them Dalits, are bonded workers, many working to pay off debts that were incurred generations ago, according to a report by Human Rights Watch published in 1999. These people, 15 million of whom are children, work under slave-like conditions hauling rocks, or working in fields or factories for less than U.S. $1 day.

    Crimes Against Women

    Dalit women are particularly hard hit. They are frequently raped or beaten as a means of reprisal against male relatives who are thought to have committed some act worthy of upper-caste vengeance. They are also subject to arrest if they have male relatives hiding from the authorities.

    A case reported in 1999 illustrates the toxic mix of gender and caste.

    A 42-year-old Dalit woman was gang-raped and then burnt alive after she, her husband, and two sons had been held in captivity and tortured for eight days. Her crime? Another son had eloped with the daughter of the higher-caste family doing the torturing. The local police knew the Dalit family was being held, but did nothing because of the higher-caste family’s local influence.

    There is very little recourse available to victims.

    A report released by Amnesty International in 2001 found an “extremely high” number of sexual assaults on Dalit women, frequently perpetrated by landlords, upper-caste villagers, and police officers. The study estimates that only about 5 percent of attacks are registered, and that police officers dismissed at least 30 percent of rape complaints as false.

    The study also found that the police routinely demand bribes, intimidate witnesses, cover up evidence, and beat up the women’s husbands. Little or nothing is done to prevent attacks on rape victims by gangs of upper-caste villagers seeking to prevent a case from being pursued. Sometimes the policemen even join in, the study suggests. Rape victims have also been murdered. Such crimes often go unpunished.

    Thousands of pre-teen Dalit girls are forced into prostitution under cover of a religious practice known as devadasis, which means “female servant of god.” The girls are dedicated or “married” to a deity or a temple. Once dedicated, they are unable to marry, forced to have sex with upper-caste community members, and eventually sold to an urban brothel.

    Resistance and Progress

    Within India, grassroots efforts to change are emerging, despite retaliation and intimidation by local officials and upper-caste villagers. In some states, caste conflict has escalated to caste warfare, and militia-like vigilante groups have conducted raids on villages, burning homes, raping, and massacring the people. These raids are sometimes conducted with the tacit approval of the police.

    In the province Bihar, local Dalits are retaliating, committing atrocities also. Non-aligned Dalits are frequently caught in the middle, victims of both groups.

    “There is a growing grassroots movement of activists, trade unions, and other NGOs that are organizing to democratically and peacefully demand their rights, higher wages, and more equitable land distribution,” said Narula. “There has been progress in terms of building a human rights movement within India, and in drawing international attention to the issue.”

    In August 2002, the UN Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (UN CERD) approved a resolution condemning caste or descent-based discrimination.

    “But at the national level, very little is being done to implement or enforce the laws,” said Narula.

    [Reply]

  • Jai Vaidya

    Azhar
    You care so much about Indian Muslims ,but you are dodging the questions about the north Indian Urdu speaking Bihari Muslims that are stranded in former East Pakistan.what are the hurdles ? Why are you not welcoming in “The land of the pure”.Yes I want to learn .
    Pllease enlighton me n,also can you give us Kafiirs a deconstruction of allamanda Iqbals “Shikwa”.
    Awaiting your reply.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Jai Vadiya

    Bihari muslims are those people who had migrated to Bangladesh (East Pakistan) from Bihar as Bangladesh (East Pak) was much closer to them in 1947. Their 2 generations are born and raised in bangladesh now. Pak should take those people whoose grandparents had migrated to Bangladesh in the name of Pak but it was the responsibility of Bangladesh to accept them as their legal citizens because they have born and raised in Bangladesh and they have never been in Pakistan.

    When many millions bengalis can live in India and Karachi illegaly then Bangaldesh should accept those people who had born and raised in its own land.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    These Bihari muslims in Bangladesh are pakistani because they faught against Bangla people during 1971 helping pakistani army. They never agreed to Bangla identity.

    You should take these patriotic pakistanis back.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Its a shameful act on our part, and I think they should be brought home ASAP. But we have abudance of shameless leaders.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Azhar Saheb
    Despite your hateful and indirect response to one of my post on this blog, I appreciate, for once, your being honest in this regard.
    It will be much better if we are able to keep our cool even in any provocative situation. Let us always analyse a particular subject in an objective way and always try to stick with general views rather than to dig out old news and post them in “cut and paste” on the blog. After all we like to know each other’s personal views rather than be interested in knowing someone else views which these “cut and paste” stories often represent.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Sure !

    Now let us have the views of all the visitors on this blog on how to go about this !

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    I agree that some discipline and boundaries must be set.

    Why not give Vijay moderator rights for 2 months and see how things go ?.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    “No cut and paste. Maybe a link can be given. If there is a cut and paste job, it should be on the subject matter of the blog.” Vijay Kumar now really. Show me one topic on this blog which Mr. Sharma writes and where you jokers make some senseble comments. The problem is that most of you guys are so obsessed and itching to go against anything Pakistan and Islam that you guys can’t restrain yourself. I can go back and forth with some of you but I don’t see anyone having the guts to rebutte Partosh for the language he usess. Since he is condeming Pakistan and Muslims, thats ok with you guys. I never have used any vulgar language against your religion and since I don’t specialize in the all the topics under discussion, and most of you assume everything evil is coming out of Pakistan, then I am forced to cut and Paste some fact to show you your evil face. Thats fair enough don’t you think Vijay? But I guess you guys so used to blowing your own traumphet that you forget realistic approach to discussion.

    I will not cut and paste as long as the jokers on this blog can stick to the topic under discussion. The moment I see any rediculous post or comment off topic, then I will be more than happy Cut and Past some facts and then we go from there.

    [Reply]

    shaikh salim Reply:

    yeah azhar! these rudesters have only one agenda and absolute nothing but to defame the name of pakistan and resultently islam. wait and watch till they go back again.

    [Reply]

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @Azhar and Shaikh Salim (CC: Vijay)
    I plead with you that let us help each other to raise the level of the debate. Vijay has agreed to be the moderator and one amongst you or somebody else you propose could team up with him to restore sanity. Let us all join hands — despite disagreement on issues— to have a serious, well meaning engagement. At the end of it, we may not necessarily be convinced but will atleast be educated about each other’s viewpoint. I leave it all to your good sense and wisdom. I am keen on an understanding because I hate censorship of any kind.

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    Well… ahem… Sharmaji, you made a naughty boy the monitor of the class. Maybe being the son of a teacher, the trick was known to you.. :)

    Anyway I hope the blog is kept meaningful. We are here to understand certian reasons. And maybe being more polite can help us understand things better….

    shaikh salim Reply:

    @ Mr Sharma,
    agreed. would look forth for a healthy and clean debate.

    vijay!!!??? – can you yourself be sole moderator. like you said all others should use good sense and wisdom.

    vijay kumar Reply:

    There is a report in today’s Dawn that 300 million pounds of the aid given during the earthquake to Pakistan was diverted and nobody knows where it went.

    In fact money earmarked for specific areas for re- construction never reached those places.

    Sad …

    No wonder the world is wary

    vijay kumar Reply:

    There is a joke of an article in today’s DAWn by Indian journalist Javed Naqvi who has blamed India of having faulty policies and painting a picture of it being a hell hole !! Read it… if u wnat a good laugh !! :)

    He makes fun of both Vajpayee and Manmohan SIngh as well as our security forces!

    The only person he does not make fun of is Gen Zia, and all other Pakistani leaders…

    Rajeev Reply:

    Javed Naqvi puts Zaid Hamid to shame. He is true soft-jehadi in journalist garb.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Is Javed Naqvi an Indian or a Pakistan agent working in India?
    BNA

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Dr Anand… he is an Indian writing **** for a few devalued Pakistani rupees/

    He is happy that Pkistan is a theocratic state. And has words of admiration for all generals and religious fanatics.

    For India his prescription is:

    a) SM krishna was not gracious enough in Pakistan

    b) We should flood Pakistan with aid

    c) We should follow Marxist dictates and what Arundhati Roy says

    d) We should free Afzal Guru as there is not enough proof against him

    etc etc

    Obviously roti ke liye izzat sale kar chuka hai woh… :)

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Our brothers in BAluchistan ARE SUFFERING THE MOST in these terrible floods in Pakistan. Flood waters have been diverted to Baluchistan and canals breached so that Baluchistan gets submerged while Sindh and Punjab can be saved.

    let us give some moral supporet to our poor suffering Baluchi brothers.

    Bugti zindabad….

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    If we want to trifurcate J&K, we should mix it with our strategy to support Balochi freedom. We have to force pakistan to commit all the atrocities in Balochistan that it blames us for in J&K.

    This will help us strengthen our case in J&K.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Vijay

    i shall mail you right now.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    yes indeed its so true. infact the entire perception of history in Pakistan’s eyes is a bluff , only with traces of truth. this fakism coupled with extremism makes Pakistanis a kind of people who refuse to budge and continue their own rant.
    you gave a good blow to these people by actually calling them rape children. another unacceptable truth for them

    Rajiv Reply:

    Pakistan already commits unspekable atrocities in Baluchistan. I dont need to list them here . You can read the horror stories on the web.

    Most civil separatist leaders of Baluchistan are killed by the Pak state, exiled or just gone missing.
    Here I am talking about civil resistance and not armed resistance leaders.

    In Indian Kashmir, all the separatist leaders are alive and preaching separatism including the most Jihadi and intolerant Mr Gilani. Gilani, Sabbir Shah, JKLF’s Malik are the most prominent of all separatist leaders for last 20 – 25 years. None of them killed.
    In fact , most of the time these leaders are provided protection by the very state they oppose !

    Ironically the only Kashmiri leaders killed by Jihadis and ISI agents are mainstream or moderate or pro-India ones like Abdul Gani Lone or the Mirwaiz of Srinagar or leaders of NC, Congress etc

    vijay kumar Reply:

    I agree with you. Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir have to be seperated as different states but still remain part of India.

    While we should highlight the atrocities on the Baluchi people. And help them so that they get a DIFFERENT SEPARATE COUNTRY :)

  • Rajiv

    So now, whats the reason that Pak state, its army and ISI , has not used Daood Gilani ( alias Headley’s ) testimony in US courts, where he has implicated senior Pak army and ISI officers of direct involvement in organizing the Mumbai carnage ?

    What is preventing Pakistan from interrogating Daood Gilani in US custody, just as India did ?

    Daood Gilani , travelled to Pakistan 7 times, was financed by people he has identified. Daood was in touch with senior leaders involved in the Mumbai carnage and knows much more than an illeterate foot soldier like Kasav.

    Besides India conducted the trial in public. The media was there to record every defense that Kasav offered. Why is the trial in Pakistan being held in total secrecy with no media presence ?
    For alleged security reasons they may bar the public but why is media barred from presence inside the court room and reporting on whats going on ?

    Is the Pak state not directly complicit in first training and funding terrorists, send ing them to India and now conducting a sham trial ?

    [Reply]

    Arun Krishnamurty Reply:

    When are we going to punish all those Tamils from TAmil Nadu creating havoc in Sri Lanka?
    When are we going to punish all those or rather our RAW agents who helped Mukti Banni in insergency in then East Pakistan?
    We have shamelessly made Modi the Chief Minister of Gujrat and he openly confesses his hatred for our fellow Muslims?

    [Reply]

    shaikh salim Reply:

    @ Arun

    the truth is always bitter. one sided view of pic. i commend you for you brave and gutsy response. yeah open up the trials and let it be on fair grounds.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Troll alert..This Arun guy is Azhar hussain in disguise.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajeev answer the questions Arun is asking?

    Rajeev Reply:

    No answer for troll..Why don’t you post with your name?

    Rajeev Reply:

    Liar..Liar pants on fire..Arun..KHris.. :)

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Actually Pakistanis have a lot to learn about how India handled Tamil situation.

    India’s position was that India supported territorial integrity of Sri Lanka and wanted Tamils to be treated as equals and have autonomy as in the federal structure of any country.
    Once the Tamil resistance started and millions refugees came to India, India helped the refugees and initially helped Tamil resistance to couinter Lankan army.

    However, one Tamil rebels started to indulge in terrorism and demanded a seperate country, India withdrew support to LeT. Just imagine, India took that step, againhst public opinion in one of its largest states, Tamil Nadu.

    If India wanted to break up Sri Lanka, LTTE would never have been defeated and Sri Lanka would have broken up by now. India stopped all material support to Tamils in SL after 1985 Indo-SL accord, under which Tamils were to get autonomy.
    If Tamil leadership was smart, they would have accepted that accord and not fought against India and SL. In the end they lost all. There is a message here for Islamist separatists in Kashmir too.

    Bottom line, India supported territorial integrity of SL and supported a solution inside Sri Lanka. India and Sri Lanka now have excellent relations.

    But then, we are digressing from the topic of the blog and I am still looking for answers !

  • vijay kumar

    Rajiv,

    My gut feeling is that Pakistan can make fun of the Indian judiciary and probably some elements (maybe not all) would do it once this trial starts.

    In case of David Headley they dare not do it to the USA and FBI. Bhaiya, aid, drones aur paapi pate ka sawaal hai naa… :)

    Further on getting info from Headley would mean arresting serving defence personel as well as ISI men; Headley is also the brother of the Pakistani Pm’s PRO and his actions were probably known at the highest level…

    By the way it seems the present Pakistani government may collapse. Let us hope they choose smebody like Nadeem Paracha in their next govt !!

    More likely that Kiyani is already practising speeches to address the nation…. :)

    [Reply]

  • Anil

    Keep playing lawn tennishitting ball from one side to other nothing is going to change

    [Reply]

  • Jai Vaidya

    Zardari and the Bhutto,s are not ” credible”because they are Shias.This trial will not yeild anything.Have you already forgoten Dawood,his daughter tweeted a couple of months ago saying her dad was in Karachi.Now great hope is pinned on Rehman Malik,he was not allowed enter the gates of GHQ.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    And Jai, Modi is sitting the Chief Ministers house in Gujrat……You guys cannot demand anything from us….first get the army crimminal who was resposible for the killing of 65 Pakistanis in your secular cuntry, then open your mouth.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    We really have to watch out for a terror attack from the evil forces from Pakistan before the Commonwealth games. Since a lot of effort has been put in for the games, it is possible that out of sheer jealousy and hatred a terror attack may be launced.

    I wonder if the government has thought of an appropriate response.

    [Reply]

  • Praveen Saxena

    After seeing the conduct of Quereshi during the last summit , I have serious doubts about any institution in Pakistan. Be it the political executive , the Army or the Judiciary . Without a basic understanding of the criminal justice system of Pakistan , the applicable laws , it would be stupid to fall prey again. Whether the Judiciary in Pak is at all independent or holds kangaroo court. We have to be cautious that this is not a ploy to clothe its farce wiith a shroud of respectability to gain credibilty before the international audience. In this game Pakistan has been far succesful than India.

    [Reply]

  • vijay Kumar

    Praveen,

    You have to conside the fact that Dawood Ibrahim continues to live as a proud and honoured Pakistani.

    Hafeez Saeed who sponsors terror all over India lives as a proud and honoured Pakistani.

    The terror camps which manipulate the minds of the young, making them suicide bombers and killers are still patronised by the ISI and the jehadi machinery are considered the crown jewels of foreign policy.

    Wonder whether there is a real change in the Pakistani attitude towards India. And if there is not how do we go forward?

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    Vinodji,

    Let me make a confession. I met nawaz Sharif in Selfridges in London in 2008. We shared a cup of tea. I congratulated him for looking younger with his new hair… :)

    GUy seemed straight. But Shrewd. He is a businessman and probably makes lot of money as lot of Pakistani leaders do in positions of power. Yet he did seem genuine when he said India and Pakistan should be friends.

    But I reminded him that Kargil happened duiring his time. He flincehd and said lot of things happen in Pakistan which are not in his control.

    Was he being genuine? Don’t know?

    Somewhere he seemed more genuine as an Indian friend than most Pakistanis who are convinced of a 1000 year war.

    Somewhere I found him more genuine in wanting peace with India. But he is for sure more like a property dealer, who can sense where his profit is. He may vouch for peace but would probably go where his profit is. But he is a better bet than guys who profess hatred for India.

    What do you think?

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Vijay,
    Thanks for sharing that experience.

    Everyone has his priorities. Nawaz priorities are

    1. Personal power/ wealth
    2. Everything else secondary.

    By that I mean he is not a visionary leader. He may beleive good relations with India are good for Pakistan but he is not going to fight for it with the Pak army/ISI and risk his political career.

    That is the bottom line. Plus his parties political base is in Punjab, the most militant of all Pak provinces. He and his party maintain relations with some of the most extrimist groups in Pakistan.

    If you read , Pak media, there are many people who share the same opinion as I or you may do about Pak army and ISI role in Pakistan, there entrenched control of the system. They call the shots. Its Pak army/ISI interests and there vision is what has shaped Pak of today.

    I do not see how anyone in Pakistan can break that grip in a peaceful manner. Change in Pakistan is now very difficult to come from within. It will need an external force of cataclysmic proportions to change the internal power dynamics of Pakistan. For a leader, however visionary he may be, to rise from within Pakistan and go against the vision of its security establsihment and its vision of role of Islam in Pakistan, is impossible.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Vijay
    Thanks for sharing your experience of one to one talk with Mr. Nawaz Sharief. Was that a chance meeting while shopping?
    But sir, we have to bear in mind that politicians have hardly any say vis-a-via Pakistan army especailly when it means doing business with India. See what happened after the Lahore declaration. My feeling is that when these politicians are out pof power, they are full of charm and will talk nicely about the desire to friends with our country. If you happened to read “My Feudal Lords” by Tehmina Durrani, how Mustafa Khar, the former most prominent political figure of Pakistan, a governor of Pakistan and a very close associate of Bhutto had visited Delhi to have talks with Rajiv Gandhi govt. at atime when Bhutto was out of power and in prison and Mr. Khar living a life as an exile in London. Same was true with Benazir Bhutto . She was always full of charm when out of power but would always give ferocious speeches against our country when she was in power. My point , as a politician and as a person, these people may be poles apart in their behavour when in power from when they are out of power.
    I think our country missed a chance when President Musharraf was in power. He was two-in -one, being the army chief as well as the President of the country Though he was guilty of Kargil misadventure, but he did offer out of box options as for as solution of Kashmir is concerned.
    So my submssion is we have to take these politicians with a pinch of salt when out of power. As they surely change colours when in power as the real power lies somewhere else and they have to act accordingly.
    Thanks and regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

    vijay Kumar Reply:

    Dr Anand,

    Absolutely chance meeting. We were hanging near a resturaunt and Nawaz was there with a friend and hanging around next to us. He was polite, I must say.

    But you are right politicains are full of charm when they are out of power. THe basic issues which plague India-Pak are the fact that elements in Pakistan needs us to portray an external threat so that they can come to power.

    As far as a solution to Kashmir goes, it can only lie in tri-furcation as I had suggested. See the current flood situation in Ladkah. Even the CM had no time for them. Our newpapers too were focussed on what “Geelani Sahab is thinking.”

    Now that Barkha Dutt has married a Kashmiri Muslim, unfortunately her programme too does not look unbiased. Hope she does not diappoint her viewers by trying to blame everything on the INdian government for “not understanding” things in Kashmir.

    Dr Anand, if the Kashmir is reduced to a 30 x 70 km strip where separatist slogans are shouted, we would realise that the other two states of Ladakh and Jammu are peaceful havens.

    Wonder why the Indian government, not thinking along this line? In fact I have posted my mail on tri-furcation at various sites and have always got a tremendous response.

    If you actually want a mailer from me on thjis issue and want to forward it to your contacts, mail me on vkkhanna71@rediffmail.com

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Rajiv,

    Has India acquired access to bring Headley back to India for a trial? Irrespective of his testimonials if the accused helped 26/11 i think India should raise voice to bring him first to justice.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Usman

    well i guess India should raise its defence budget to slice out Pakistan into pieces.
    (un)Happy Independence Day !!

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Thank you for your piece. What actually do you feed on?

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Usman,
    Daood Gilani has pleaded guilty in US courts for helping organize the Mumbai terrorist attack from Pakistan. He has , as a plea bargain, agreed to co operate with US and other countries to prosecute all involved in the terror attack. As part of the plea bargain, he agreed to be examined by Indian investigators , in presence of his lawyers and US attorneys representing the govt of USA.

    So he was thus examined about 6 weeks ago by Indian investigators and Mr Daood Gilani ( Headley ) has shared the information he has.

    Mr Gilani will be shortly sentenced by US courts. I think he will get about 10 year prison term.

    India will be happy with it because it makes no difference to India , if he serves the prison term in India, USA or Pakistan.

    The same applies to all the handlers of Daood Gilani in Pakistan. After all, Daood Gilani received all his funds and directives from his handlers in Pakistan and reported back to them.
    India would be happy if Pakistan held a transparent trial and sentenced the master minds of the terrorist attack. They dont have to be handed to India or serve there prison terms in India.

    As long as they are punished by the Pak state, India is happy.

    The interesting thing is both the Pak state and the so called free Pak media, treats Daood Gilani ( whom it always refers to as Headley ) as a plague and avoids him and his testimony and the evidense he brings.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @Rajiv,

    ” .. India will be happy with it because it makes no difference to India , if he serves the prison term in India, USA or Pakistan. …”

    I differ in the stance if India is happy with Headley being sentenced in US. It makes a difference to us. Why is he being in prison in US? Has he made troubles over there?? No! its links trace to Pakistan and India… this is mischief in disguise. Let me tell you, we in Pakistan have captured number of such who make trips to Pakistan (because of Pakistani roots) and get caught in US. Lately, in April a group of six was held by authorities who were caught from madrassas in lower punjab and were voiced by US to let go because of their US citizenship. The group was put on trial and traced to have some training with under ground groups (wherebouts not known) and court ordered a direct sentence of jail to them. Such cases are carefully framed and disguised to decieve.

    Headley should be brought to India/Pakistan for henious crimes and aiding those who murdered innocent – any delay in especially this is letting go a good chance in air. And i have all the doubts if US authorities would allow his escape outside US. He is a perfect example of someone who fits the case and framed with a little piece in a big jig-saw puzzle. Black sheep!

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Vijay
    I have already sent u a mail on your mail id on this subject. It was sent on August 8.
    BNA

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    I know Barkha Dutt is n*u*tjob but do you have any proof that she is married to Kashmiri muslim?

    vijay kumar Reply:

    @Dr Anand

    I have got the mail. Will positively send you the mailer soon

    @Rajeev

    I read it on the internet. SHe Married a guy called Hasseb Drebu, who is the ex CEO of J&K bank. Dont know if the news is correct.

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    If you are not sure that Barkha is married to someone, you should not state it as FACT.
    She is a small fry. We should be more concerned about undocumented lives of Nehru/Gandhis.

  • vijay Kumar

    Rajiv,

    You are right that it would require an external force of cataclysmic proportions to change the internal power dynamics of Pakistan.

    Anyway the time of charismatic leadership the world over has gone. The media gives us too many closeups of any personality to make him or her look like a giant. A Zardari was a hero when he came in after Benazir’s death; a few months down the line, too many flaws have been highlighted by the media for him to survive.

    Again, unfortunately it boils down to the world together galvanising this huge force to bring about the change.

    I can predict more turmoil in Pakistan after the floods; IMF conditions, huge inflation, belt tightening which Pakistanis are not really good at since they bank on other countries to bail them out using a dooms day scenario–”that either you help us or the Taliabn will take over the nuclear weapons…”

    I hope this does not translate into them using terror as a weapon with renewed zeal to divert the attention of their population.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Vijay,
    When you have insurance in the form of billions of dollars of aid, loans forgiven, loans re-scheduled at zero percent rate, donations then every disaster is a new economic oppoprtunity.

    I see no change,

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    there is a high possibility that the Pakistan govt may use a significant proportion of the fund money for some nasty purpose , and keep on asking still some more to the US.
    had India not been a spineless nation , we could have had attacked their terror camps by taking disadvantage of the floods over their.

    anyways , the floods have been proven as a boon for the revival of extremist ideologies in Pakistan as the Islamic charitable foundations are now working for the restoration of the civilian life and hence exploiting the situation for heir own purpose.
    lets hope someday we are able to cut Pakistan in several pieces.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Paritosh
    It looks like Pakistan to be the pastmaster in blackmailing the world by citing one reason or another for seeking millions of dollars as charity. Yes, the present scenario of floods is a genuine situation for everyone to help the people of Pakistan for the sake of humanatarian reasons. Our country has also offered 5millions dollars of help during these difficult times of human tragedy in the face of nature’s wrath. I only hope the aid is given in material rather than in cash . But the big question mark: will Pakistan accept this offer coming from Kafirs and thus to introduce political as well as religious factors in not accepting the offer? I only hope that it be accepted for the reasons and human spirit for which it has been offered.
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Mahesh Reply:

    Dr. Anand,
    Pakistan – or for that matter any country experiencing such a largescale disaster – would hardly be in a position to reject help. Generally speaking, in situations like these , donors too make donations without any strings attached .
    BTW, speaking of natural disasters – do we remember the Kashmir Earthquake of 2005 ? Especially the joint efforts by Indian and Pakistani government agencies in providing immediate relief to those affected by the earthquake.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mahesh
    Please allow me to add one fact when you say ” for that matter any country —— to reject help”. If you kindly recall, our country had declined politely all the offers of international help not only during the 2005 earthquake, but also diring tusnami diasater. Instead , it depended on its own resources including the official machienry combined with large scale corporate contributions as well people’s support.
    Thanks
    BNA

    Mahesh Reply:

    Dr Anand,
    Two things ……
    I have clearly said – “Pakistan – or for that matter any country experiencing such a largescale disaster – would hardly be in a position to reject help” . So , will Pakistan reject help ? I doubt. With disaster of same scale (remember , the key here is scale – about one third of country under water, in this case) very few countries would be in a position to reject the help.
    Since you mentioned help turned down by our own government during 2005 earthquake and and tsunami – I must also mention our accepting of help during Bhuj and Killari earthquakes (OK, Bhuj was almost entirely expats ). But again, I don’t see anything particularly demeaning here as countries – both large and small do accept help . More demeaning would be the way help is distributed and channelised.
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    Mahesh Reply:

    Paritosh,
    You said :
    “anyways , the floods have been proven as a boon for the revival of extremist ideologies in Pakistan as the Islamic charitable foundations are now working for the restoration of the civilian life and hence exploiting the situation for heir own purpose”
    Nothing unusual here. Religious charitable organizations do help in providing relief during disaster. In India, RSS worked in providing relief during the A.P. cyclone in seventies. Katrina disaster saw christian charitable organizations engaged in relief and rehabilitation work. Something similar is happening here too. Are you expecting those affected by floods to be rejecting help just because some religious organizations are providing it ?
    Cheers,
    Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    The world’s mindset is changing. Aid is not coming easily to Pakistan.

    Till now their sales pitch was “gvie us the dollars or the Taliban get the nuclear weapons…”
    But the world is now weary of Pakistani motives and its constant clamouring of aid. In fact instead of finding out means of disaster management and controlling disease, the leadership is busy in counting how many dollars it is about to get.

    Maybe there is a smell of cuts and commissions in this too… :)

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Paritosh

    I am against India taking any military action against Pakistan.
    It will be useless and damaging to us.
    Sure it may be more damaging to Pakistan but it wont solve any problem and causing damage to Pakistan serves no useful purpose unless it changes the nature of Pak state towards India.

    Say, you have 1000$s and the other irrational guy has 10. If you get into a fight the other guy has much less to lose. The more India gets richer and industrialized the more it becomes vulnerable.

    Its a false logic to think terror camps can be destroyed in military strikes and I am happy that Indian leadership has been wise on this point and not swayed by public opinion.

    You can destroy airports, bridges, large industrial complexes in air strikes but not so primitive and mobile a thing as terror camps. Even if you destroy a hundred terror camps, if a nation of 160 million people wants to create more, it can create 1000 more.

    Pak is an irrational entity. If a deal with India benefits them say 175 million $’s and benefits India say 75 million dollars, Pakistan will be against it because the deal benefits India by 75million dollars !
    Just see how it behaves on trade and transit relations with India. It behaves as if trade is a grand concession it will give India if India accepts its position on contentious issues.
    Thats why I call Pak a stupid and irrational entity.

    But India has other options.
    Option 1 : Keep showing Pakistan the benefits of behaving as a civilized nation in its relations with India. It may never work but we owe it to ourselves to keep trying.

    Option 2 : Until that happens, start financially supporting every non-terrorist constituent in Pakistan thats against the Pak state as represented by its current army and ISI.
    The goal is to keep its army/ISI occupied so that it has less time to focus on more Kasav type attacks.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    if India militarily consolidates itself by increasing its defence budget , then how come can Pakistan cause any damage?? when i say that we have to attack Pakistan , it means that there has to be a long term planning for that. if India gets richer and industrialized it should also use its newly found wealth to flex and strengthen its military muscle.

    its not so difficult to destroy Pakistan , provided if the work is executed systematically. we can cause more havoc by supporting separatists like the Balochis against Porkistan.

    “Keep showing Pakistan the benefits of behaving as a civilized nation in its relations with India. It may never work but we owe it to ourselves to keep trying.”

    Pakistan will never see that , because it is a retarded nation. give up your Nehruvian approach for solving this problem because it aint gonna work

    [Reply]

  • Venky

    This article should be read along with last article on GHQ controlling the Pakistan. I feel no amount of appeasement would bring results. It Pakistan is bent upon trying to find loop hole, they will find one even if you set up a court on Wagah’s no man land, now that border closing ceremony is only symbolic.
    Remember only 2 witness testified in 1year, compared to 653 testified including 30 eye witnesses during the same period in India and verdict announced.. You know finally even if Ajmal kasab is produced in their courts, Kasab would say that he recorded the statement under duress and the Judge there would ask their Govt. to protect him as he is a Pakistani standing on Pakistan soil !!!!

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    I dont think it meant that Kasab has to be brought to Pakistan to assess the trial. May be you keep it and provide video access to let us assess his conditions. one needs an eye to judge.
    I would like Pakistani authorities approaching Delhi to send a team in India to approach facts and figures. somewhere that ice has to be broken irrespective of trust deficit.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    Please allow me to intervene in this interesting discussion.

    If we look at the pace of trial in Pakistan, do’nt we think that it will continue endlessly for an indefinite time. See some times, the presiding judge resigns, so it takes time to appoint another judge. Some times, the trial is adjourned because the prosecutor either does not turn up on the date of hearing or he gives up the case for some or other reasons. Added to this are long adjournments during the trial dates.I understand only two witnesses have been examined in almost one year of the trial. That simply shows the reluctance on the part of Pakistan to proceed with the trial seriously..
    Moreover, the hiccups in the trial for either the Indian Magistrate goes to Pakistan or some one from Pakistan prosecutor /defense side come to India for examining or cross-examining Kasab are all delay tactics and at the most are judicial excuses to delay the trial. I am not sure whether Video conferecning suggested as an alternate in this regard will be acceptable to either of two countries for one reason or other.
    There is belief in our counry that Pakistan courts will hardly punish the perpetrators of 26/11 being currently tried in Pakistan courts seeing the way the trial is being conducted at such a snail pace. That is unfortunate but again is another example of trust deficit between the two govts.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Wah Wah Dr sahib and in your country it is all hunky dory as far as justice goes. When are you guys going to punish Modi and Bal Thackray for their crimes? When are you going to punish the guy who was responsible for death of 65 Pakistanis in your India? When are you going to punish for all those riots in your country where countless Muslim, Sikhs and Christians have been murdered and I am not even touching the subject of Dalits. It seems you Indian lose your senses when it comes to Pakistan. Come on relax we have the same problems as you people have if not less.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Goodday Dr Anand,

    Your argument is very just. I believe in cases like this where external state factors are involved one needs a more cautious approach to deal a trial. Especially when the nature of trial is this much complex and demanding. Lack of witnesses, to and fro correspondence with authorities abroad, gauging authenticity of the testimonials not only adds but compounds the situation. This results in a blame game.
    Remember sometime back we came across a similar debate and i had advocated the idea of sending the team to India and seeking Delhi’s permission to tackle the situation in a more responsible way, I’m glad a hint of that is mentioned in this blog by the author (but under a different prespective). Setting aside the blame and trust deficiency factor what this proves more is India’s innocence. I fail to realize how could a country that claims more on being innocent could not have floated this idea. We have to agree that during this incident it was Pak’s foreign minister who was in Delhi and made assure that Pakistan would help india – (even partially agreed to exchange intelligence information) but time and time again the hatered in between has its own magnitude. As for the impression i have least remarks but i wish justice to prevail. My apologies in this regard that i couldn’t be of any practical help.

    Regards,
    Usman

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Azhar, please present yourself in a manner that should not let go your intergrity and sense of well being. You represent your country and countrymen.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Azhar sahib

    Thanks for your response. I quite agree with you, for once, that conditions in our two countries are almost similar in some ways. It is because we both inherited from the same colonial masters.
    But your comments were a little deflective from the main topic of blog though I understand the intensity of your feelings about other points raised in your response. But I had only touched something which was relevant to the subject under discussion. We may discuss other points raised by you at a proper site and time when the subject of the blog relates to these topics.
    As the other issues you mentioned are as much of importance from Pakistan point of view as 26/11 is important from our point of view. It is especially so when the Mumbai carnage became a reason for the break of Indo-Pak. talks. So for the talks to be resumed on a positive note, the issue of punishing the perpetrators of 26/11 has to be addressed in the first instance, especially when the carnage was planned in your country. The capture of Kasab was the only silver lining in an otherwise an event of vast tragedy.
    Well, when I said that the popular belief in our country that 26/11 trial being conducted in Pakistan will not be fruitful comes from our observation that judiciary in Pakistan finds
    hard to punish clerics. This is borne out by the observation that the cleric Abdul Aziz captured while escaping in a burqa during military operation at Lal Masjid in Pakistan is still walking free though he was charged for terrorism, treason and war against the state of Pakistan. If he can not be touched, I think you will agree with me that punishing likes of Hafiz Saeed or Lakhvi may be still more difficult as they are only involved in waging a war against an enemy country(India) from the Pakistan soil.
    May I assure you that we in our country are not at all obsessed with Pakistan. But the present situation is all because of cumulative frustration and anger here for 26/11, Parliament attack and Kargil war. Some way has to be found to move further. That is possible only when the perpetrators of 26/11 are brought to justice by a Pakistan court.

    Regards
    BNA

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    Thanks for a meaningful response.
    Let me add that our belief that the perpetrators of 26/11 being tried in Pakistan courts are not likely to be comvicted arises from the fact that Mr. Abdul Aziz, the cleric caught in burqa while escaping from the Lal Masjid military operations is still walking free. Though he has been charged with terrorism, treason and for waging a war against the state. In such a scenario, it will be too much to punish someone who waged a war against India (an enemy country which India is often referred in Pakistan) and that too from Pakistan soil. I may be wrong but that is the general perception among the people here.
    Let us wait for good times. In the meantime, I hope the humanitarian aid of 5 million dollars which our country offered to Pakistan during dificult times of natur’s wrath as a token of solidarity with people of Pakistan is accepted in the same spirit as well by your govt.
    Regards
    BNA

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @ Dr Anand.
    Viewing a lengthy chain of response im writing my views in a new thread below. Thanks!

  • vijay kumar

    Guys… and any girls who don’t seem to come here….

    What is happening to our mission of tri-furcating Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir????
    Ladkah was faced by flash floods and a cloudburst, yet the separatists hogged the headlines with their acts of stonethrowing. We have not been able to change their mindset for 63 yrs but if Jammu and Ladakh are separated form kashmir, then doodh ka doodh paani ka paani ho jayega.

    They would realise that the valley of 70 x 30 km is too small to exist as a separate country; further more it is the massive fund flow from toursim in Amarnath and Jammu and Ladakh which actually finances the Kashmir valley. Inspite of that the budget is sudsidised to an extent of 23 % and everything from food to education is very very heavily subsidised.

    Dr Anand sent me a mail today and I sent him my mailer. Which he can forward it further on.
    If you guys are interested in solving this quagmire — which can only happen if concerned Indians take interest, mail me at vkkhanna71@gmail.com.

    C’mon guys!! Let’s take a resolve on this independence day to do something for our brothers in jammu, Kashmir and ladakh !

    [Reply]

  • Praveen Saxena

    Hey Vijay

    Why did you have to make Rajeev unhappy.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Praveen

    Err… is his heart broken or something?

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Kya hua Bhai..kiska dil toot gaya?

    [Reply]

  • http://- Rajeev

    Hoping for better Independence days in future.

    We shall overcome..
    Hum Honge Kamyab…

    Jai Hind
    Vande Matram

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Happy Independence day to everyone !!! 15 august mubarak :)

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Vinodji,

    Why dont you pick up the topic of flood aid offered by India to Pakistan in ur next blog?

    A) What would be the public reaction in India and Pakistan if Pak were to take the aid.

    b) What is the chances of this money being used by the ISI to train more terrorists to hit the world?

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @Rajiv

    10 yrs for Dawood Gilani is too less. Sine 10-15 goras have also been killed and in the eyes of the West gora blood is very imprtant, I pray to Allah, Ram, Jesus, wahe guru that an intensely evil man like Dawood Gilani should join his sucide bombing pals in jannat soon :)

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Vijay
    Well Daood Gilani’s sentencing is postponed to see how he co-operates with investigating agencies in unmasking the conspirators. Depending on his co-operation he has been assured a relatively lenient sentencing. Thats part of the plea bargaining deal.

    So I think, he may get only 10 years. Sure its very small as compard to the nature and scale of the attack but I am keeping my expectations low.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Rajiv, Rajeev, Paritosh, jai vaidya….

    Email me at vkkhanna71@gmail.com. And I will send you a mailer on why we need to tri-furcate Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. Do it now!! India needs to move on….

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    I will e-mail, Monday

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Here is a very interesting and striking interview of Professor Mead on India-Pak affairs in Dawn.

    I wish everyone who visits this blog, from India or Pakistan, read it.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/local/lahore/india-enjoys-veto-power-over-pakistans-progress-580

    comments welcome.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    I read them. Indeed gr8 to read that the US is finally seeing thru the Pakistani game.

    At this point I would also like to say that the big turning point of our foreign policy came when

    1) Jaswant Singh used his personal rapport with Strobe Talbott to change the US policy

    2) George Bush used his simple logic to see that Indians were the good guys.

    Hope history would be fair to them

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Now I see how this works, a pro-Indian article and that journalist and Dawn is great. Naqvi writes it and he is Zaid Hamid. Zaid Hamid is great Pakistani who tells it like it is.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar Soower Hussain

    Zaid Hamid ??? who ?? ok ok !! that dog who often barks on Pakistani tv channels

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Paritosh,
    Did you follow him during 26/11 episode? He claimed that Kasab was actuall a clean shaven sikh ‘Amar Singh’ and his partner some hindu ‘Das’.

    He never even apologised for bluffing on pakistani TV. These people are born shameless.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    He shuts up all the loud mouths that you can come up with on your TV shows.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Zaid hamid will shut up if you ask him who are Yusuf kazzam, Amar Singh and Hira lal.

    :)

    Rajeev Reply:

    Azhar Bhai,
    Ever heard of Yusuf Kazzam? This Zaid hamid is Munafiq.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Usman,
    Over much of middle east, millions beleive that 9/11 was done by USA itself.
    For those inclined to belive such stories there are even videos on u-tube !!!!
    Yes many books too been written on the subject .

    Similarly for those who want to ignore the mountain of evidense in search of consiracy theories, and try to implicate any Indian organization for 26/11 attacks, you too can find all sorts of stories and innuendoes. Maybe ISI has prepared a video too !

    Yes , some Indian extrimists were involved in the Malegaon blast and India is prosecuting and punishing them, in a transparent manner. Of course, propogandists from Pak take the bit of facts from Malegaon and then create mountains of stories out of it and relate them to other incidences.
    Pakistanis assume just as ISI is a most clandestine and criminal organization that all other countries too must be so. A thief often thinks everyone else is a thief.

    There are criminals in every country. Good states fight them bad states like Pakistan , promote train and protect them, inclusing 26/11 master minds.

    Pak media is often full of such stories , which are encouraged by the Pak state and its nefarious agencies.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Rajiv,

    I would like to believe that 9/11 was not done by US.
    I would like to believe that Iraq was center of weapons of mass destruction and facts revealed by US despite thrice UN investigation team sent to Iraq are true.
    I would like to believe that Afghanistan is full of bunch of outlaws who have islamic agenda to destroy the whole peaceful world.
    I would love to believe India’s offer of peaceful talks with Pakistan (despite its involvement in 26/11) is not at all fishy and purely sincere.

    But standing from here and looking back im afraid ground realities do not speak this.

    - Leave alone millions there are many alone in US who believe and point fingures at CIA for its c/overt operations. Yes, you are right all are fools who believe this. At least i haven’t come across any video footage of any plane colliding with Pentagon.

    - Fabrication of little pieces into a mountain is one trait of Pakistanis but people like M.S Mashrif or A.R Antulay have more say then me or you. What i quoted is not my say (athough that is a belief in Pakistan) but rather of someone who holds a position and sight to gauge things.

    Yes, there are troubles in Pakistan, we are not (infact no where) good – it won’t be wrong to say but all those troubles inside or emanating from Pakistan are not internal. Still believe what you believe.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Dear Usman,,

    From the gist of your mail, I think you have just come to the computer after hearing Zakir Naik and Zaid Hamid !! :)

    Still, since i would rate you as among the Pakistanis, Indians would like to engage with, I am trying to answer your queries point by point.

    a) Well the WTC and the twin towers were destroyed by planes. Do you have doubts on that too, that it was just an animation video? As far as Pentagon goes, it is indeed very embarrassing for the Americans to admit that Islamic terrorists managed to reach their top defence establishment.

    The very fact that the Americans say that, is admiting a weakness. So for all reasons, Pentagon was hit. Of course if you have contrary proof, you could furnish it here !

    b) Iraq may not have had WMD. But once US was hit, it had to build up reason for coming to this region. Fact is your rulers colluded with US both ways. First in creating terrorism in the name of Islam in Asia and then accepting aid to eradicate it.

    Honestly you really need to kill a few of your Islam misusing leaders for this ! :) Gen Zia of course being their founder.

    c) Frankly AR ANtulay and SM Mashrif learnt this fabrication under possible Pakistani influence.

    I am serious. Antulay is among our most criminal and crooked politicians. He was in with the smugglers in seventies and eighties and institutionalised corruption by making kickbacks mandatory for buying things like cement, steel etc etc. He escaped jail by threatening and blackmailing Indira Gandhi that he would implicate her in case he was arrested.

    He misuses Islam to the core for escaping jail and for getting prominence whenever he is sidelined. Simple formula. Give me power or I will shout “Muslims are being discriminated in secular India…:) ”

    Antulay actually commited the biggest act ot being a traitor. That is siding with vile jehadis who killed innocent Indians, even when India was under attack.

    All for trying to drive a wedge between Hindus and Muslims

    Unfortunately SM Mashrif is also looking for a political career along those lines.

    Usman, now it is for you to believe what is right. For example if someone were to tell you that Hafeez Saeed is actually a woman pretending to be a man. Will you take it seriously or laugh?

    If you will laugh …. then also laugh at what Antulay and Mashrif say :) :)

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dear Vijay,

    Cut short this lengthy talk and i dont have the intention to spoil the debate as well as to bring unnecessary allegations. The point i would like to make is there is evil and good residing alike. This is true in case of Pakistan but whenever we talk about India – one leaves out with impression that India is all saint. I dont take inspirations from Zaid or Dr Naik, although i have credible remarks for Dr Naik for his struggle to know what other religions say and what Islam is all about but for Zaid i believe he is biased in his opinions.

    I stated categorically about “But standing from here and looking back im afraid ground realities do not speak this ” it means not from day one but from this point if you analyze previous events that happened around the globe what we came to know about terrorism (more so Islamic Terrorism) is all flawed or phony. Yes, that happend for Russia in 80s but back then it was under a Cummunist threat and not terrorism. I acknowledge there were mistakes in national policies but those are difficult to realize that is sole ownership of Pakistan.Islamic fundamentalists do exist long before 80s but shaping it with a new brush of terrorism is not wise call.

    - The whole world or atleast those affected from war against terrorism have come to know the realities of these incidents. Good countries like France and Germany never voted in favour of that and that is the reason you dont find them engaged in bloody bath in Afghanistan. What you mentioned regarding Pentagon shouldn’t it speak for itself – that there is no video evidence stating of any planes attacks. Is it difficult for a video camera in Pentagon to capture it and made aware to the world? but yes some years back i came to know and watched a video (would research for it & let you know) about a footage where a rocket missle was launched at Pentagon. (It might make you laugh now but will share details later).

    - Regarding Antulay and Mushrif i leave that with accepting what you say – as you know better conditions in India then i do.

    Regards,
    Usman

  • vijay kumar

    Azhar bhai,

    Even Nadeem paracha, possibly the pakistani who should get the nobel prize… actually there is none for journalism– considers Zaid hamid to be a cross between a donkey and Hitler. If you start seeing Hamid in the same way, a lot of Pakistani problems would be solved.

    Immediately you would not need to hate so many things– India, hindus, Sikhs, USA, dmocracy, secularism, humanity, minorities…

    Your viewpoint will improve.

    I hope you will take my suggestion seriously and just do it for one day. Just one day, and see the change in your heart…

    With luv.

    Vijay :)

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Azhar Bhai,

    Nadeem Paracha compared Zaid Hamid to a Donkey in the sense that both make incomrehensible “dhaienchoo dhaenchoo” sounds. I am not alluding to a donkey in the google trends sort of way….

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Dr Anand,

    Sir, I differ with Abdul Aziz example that you stated. The cleric alleged as terrorist and runs a terrorist organization – is a myth. I have studied in madarrasa for three years and somehow had prior links with his madrassa and i’m aware that he or his brother Abdul Rashid Ghazi (may God bless his soul) were neither terrorist nor possed a threat to Pakistani establishment or any other state. Lal Masjid incident was really a shame and massacare of innocent lives at the hands of military. What it was and what happened is a story never told but i witnessed it. So i would like to assure you that he is not who you think he is. Although, he paid a heavy price and his brother also got killed in the operation but on a personal note there are no crimes against that man.

    Lakhvi or Hafiz Saeed are separate issues and different categories, which you may link to wage war against a state – (for Kashmir reasons) but let me clerify for Kashmir and within the region of Jammu and Kashmir. Even in the peak time of insurgency (in 90s) we never witnessed non state actor sponsored incident like 26/11 in India.

    Allow me to re direct your attention to some of the work by your former Maharashtra IG S.M. Mushrif’s work in a book called “Who Killed Kakare”. (I haven’t quite been able to get this book in Pakistan (will try again) to relocate this book). The author uncovered some under ground facts and some mysteries related to saffron extremist groups involved in Melegong blasts, Ahmedabad blast and even in Samjhota express massacare. What the author belives is police office H. Kakare was on the hit list of such big chain of gangs who had links in various terrorist activities inside India and its links to 26/11 and external state factors. Kakare was the key police official who was about to uncover the mystery of such criminal groups. What i believe is the next episode of this conversation. But if you have any views on this do share it with me. May be if you follow the pieces would end up what most of the Pakistanis think and take the impression of whats going on in India. I have more believe in my saying that if Islamabad approaches Delhi to allow her team to approach the accused and witnesses it will not only bring case in favour of Pakistan but also might win case as well. Somehow i believe indian authorities will not allow this much leniency and would show reluctance.

    As for the aid i have sincere respect and gratitude for this goodwill gesture and would like to thank for the offer on my behalf as well as on behalf of my countrymen.

    Regards,
    Usman

    P.S: If someone by the name of Roger Clemmens is reading my comments please answer my query in response to your remarks.

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    You should know kasab has admitted killing karkare. He fired on karkare, kamte and Salaskar.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Usman !!

    Dont read fairy tales too much! now that you are an adult…

    It’s only in Pakistan that you aqre taught to den the obvious and keep thinking that there is a deeper conspiracy behind everything….

    Cmon you might as well read Aladin, Sindbad or Hans Christian Anderson. That at least will be more entertaining :)

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    I’ve least interest in fairy tales would take serious note of what former Maharashtra IG of police have to say and i believe he is not from Pakistan.

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Usman
    Well, I shall accept your version of Lal Masjid episode as well as the escape of the cleric Abdul Aziz in a burqa. But I hope you would give a thought as to why the military govt. of President Musharraf was forced to take this extreme step of attacking the Majid to flush out the persons detained over there. One version goes like it was done under the pressure of Chinese govt. to free some Chinese taken as hostage in the mosque. I am not sure but as it is of not pertinent to the topic of the blog., I shall leave it as such.
    Yes, many police offcers like KarKare, Kamte and Salaskar were martyred during 26/11 tragic event. But these officers were among other martyrs as well who were victim of the attack. Yes, Karkare was a bold and a brave officer and he had to pay with his life in an act of urgency to deal directly with the perpetrators and that too in the open shoot out in streets of Mumbai.There are other stories in this respect, but then it is freedom to all to speak their version. Even Kasab has confessed that he killed Karkare. After this confession and going by the circumstances , there is hardly any room left to doubt this version. But still, every one is free to draw his conclusions. I shall like to look for the book you mentioned.
    Thanks and good wishes
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Thank you sir for your response. Will talk some other day on Lal Masjid incident.

    Let us all atleast get to know other’s perspective like you mentioned, need less to say that I too believe Kakare and other were caught in the saga of 26/11 which somehow differ from interpretations of S.M. Mushrif.

    Would look forth for some more interesting exchange of opinions ahead.

    Regards,
    Usman

  • vijay kumar

    Rajiv…Monday is almost over…

    Rajeev….ur email??

    Paritosh ?

    vkkhanna71@gmail.com
    mail me at

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    I’ll send you a mail tonight but I don’t see Kashmir’s trifurcation ever happening because our present govt. is minority appeasing communal govt. It only know how to harrass hindus.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Rajeev,

    let us build up our case thru a mass movement for trifucation !! let us get it into popular debate…

    Ultimately it will only happen when the people of Jammu and Leh/ Ladakh march on the streets asking for it. But let us make that happen by throwing up the idea all around.

    Punjab and haryana are different states and both are happy; so is himachal.

    Similar thing can happen in Jammu and Ladkah. Let us first ask for HIndi to be taught as a mandatory language in all three states of Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir.

    We should now go for it!!

    if the Congress is sloppy… the BJP will do it one day…

    [Reply]

    Rajeev Reply:

    Vijay,
    This can only be done thru friends in Media but currently our media is on Congress Payroll. I have come to realise that there is no greater force than media. All president/PM/Dictators are afraid of (FREE) media.

    It is only in India that we see media as an ally of govt. always finding ways to muzzle voice of oppostion. In a normal democracy media works in tandem with oppostion to keep govt. on toes thus creating necessary balance in polity.

    The Indian media is basically morally corrupt and can not be trusted with any national cause. They will even braodcast separation of J&K with commercials in between. For them its all TRP and ad revenues.

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Rajeev,

    Dont think that the media is a monolithic organisation !! There are a number of journalists who do write what they believe in, But many are motivated by the fact that you need to feed your family first and enjoy life– like it is in any other profession.

    I know some of the big names well and let me tell you the conclusions…

    a) Many of our journalists are indeed well read and liberal. Yet the print journalists are not so well paid, especially in the smaller papers where planting news thru favours and cash is pretty common.

    b) SOme of the big channel owners have flirted with politicians and hid their sins for personal favours. If you heard the Amar SIngh tapes, you can hear Prabhu Chawla assuring him that he would be portrayed favourably by Aaj Tak.

    b) The owners of most media organisations are business men who like to tango with the government in power. In fact in UP, when Amar Singh was calling the shots, they all played up to him building him as some sort of playboy who could get things done. Their own motivations were just getting subsidised land allotments in NOIDA, Greater Noida and rest of UP. Ditto it was in Haryana :)

    Now that Mayawati is around, pleasing her is the name of the game.

    c) Most state govenrments periodically announce housing schemes at subsidised rates for journalists to win them over. Other favours are also handed out in terms of positions of power etc etc. A lot of journalistsw end up going to bed with the government in power :)
    — truely embedded I would say !

    So in the end, for whatever reasons, commerce is supreme. Let us use this to our advantage. If a coalitian comes to power and enough noise is created, and enough profit is seen in trifurcation by politicians and journalists, tri-furcation WILL HAPPEN. We just have to build up the background for this.

    Take everything with a smile Rajeev. That is my philosophy. As you said the media will
    ” even braodcast separation of J&K with commercials in between. For them its all TRP and ad revenues. ”

    let that be the case. But if we make our proposition commerically viable, well they will take it up !

  • jai vaidya

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTB3fdyHmS4
    Najam gets a smack down.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Jai
    That was a informative link Jai.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Very well analyzed article. But I fail to understand (and blame it to my non-financial background) how would they use the financial system to their benefit if the companies from two nations involved in trade only deal in cash or other foreign securities.

    I also like to see the analysis how India can safe guard its interests in this game.

    [Reply]

    geekay Reply:

    Indian goods are cheap. Even if they do not to import directly, they have indian goods via gulf and Singapore. Dealing directly with India makes these Indian imports much cheaper. The trade currently 2.6 Billion between India and Pakistan is in India ’s favour .Pakistan has 14% of that and rest belongs to India. So, that ’s why, if they decide on importing directly, they can reduce more of their import bill. For India, there is nothing to be worried about. After all, India needs to grow as well and more trade and dependency between two nations means Pakistani Hawks will be on their back feet and less terrorism for India. War and tensions do not help the growth and objective to lift people above poverty line. So, whatever you can trade, it is good even if it is Pakistan or China as same arguments applies to China.

    [Reply]