Taliban balkanize Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan



Noted Pakistani humorist Ibn-e-Insha once wrote about his encounter with a Pakistani troubled by his countrymen’s overwhelming ethnic and sub-nationalist sensitivities.Aajkal Pakistan mein koyi apney aap ko Sindhi kehta hai to koyi Baluchi, Punjabi ya Pathan. Agar yahi sab karna tha tou Pakistan bananey ki kya zaroorat thi?” he asked.

Maaf kijiyega, galti ho gayi, agey sey nahin banayenge,” responded Insha in a telling acceptance of contradictions that bedevil Pakistan as a nation State. That happened some years ago as the Leftist thinker died way back in 1978.

In the years thereafter, sharpened ethnic, regional, linguistic and sub-nationalist identities have put under greater strain the State’s cohesiveness. The Punjabi imperialism, Pakhtoon and Baloch alienation, Shia-Sunni divide and the Mohajir versus Sindhi sentiments have only lent greater meaning to Insha’s apology.

The recent wanton killings of members of the minority Ahmadiyya community were a chilling reminder of their persecution even before the Taliban, suspected of the massacre in two places of worship in Lahore, arrived on the scene. It would be pertinent to recall here the religio-political Jamaat-e-Islami’s Maulana Maududi-led revivalist campaign of the 1950s. It’s objective was to unify Pakistani Muslims against the Ahmadiyyas – who were variously painted as non-Muslims, pro-India and a threat to Islam through the sixties and seventies.

It might sound ironic. But it was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who gave in finally to fundamentalist forces seeking the Ahmadiyyas excommunication from Islam in 1974. Zia-ul-Haq picked up actually the threads from where Bhutto left to create a separate electoral system for non-Muslims including the Ahmadiyyas. It was the much-maligned Pervez Musharraf who undid the pernicious regime towards creation of a joint electorate system.

However, that hasn’t ended the rampant discrimination of the excommunicated Ahamdiyyas in all walks of life. Their properties and businesses are perennially under threat. They cannot read the kalma or call their places of worship as mosques. And its common for the mullah lobby to prevent their elevation to key governmental positions or run campaigns for their removal.

The Pakistan of today bears no resemblance to what Jinnah willed in his 1947 speech as president of its Constituent Assembly: “To my mind, this problem of religious differences has been the greatest hindrance in the progress of India. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”

Jinnah quite obviously understood that while it was possible to create a country on a divisive agenda, it wasn’t possible to run it on that basis. His legacy was destroyed early in the life of Pakistan. The Talibani offensive is about the balkanization of his idea of a Muslim homeland.

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  • A.M.FAZIL

    Sir,no words I have to praise this article.

    The man who was instrumental in dividing India on the basis of religion has been proved the biggest fool,the worst fanatic and the most wicked that ever trod here on earth. He offered some a blessed land and some thoughtless Muslims believed him and accepted the offer.And thus the selfish Jinnah’s dream of capturing power came true and there began the miseries of the so called Pakistanis. This country is now just a haunted place.Their chief contribution to the world is in the field of high quality terrorism in the name of religion.They seek happiness only in destruction. They also showed the world how one has to fight against ones own country men. Though some of us in India have also started to imitate them,we can’t rival them since they’re the super powers in this! God only knows if ever this country is going to acquire sanity.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    From what I have read of history and personal accounts that I have heard, the foundation of Pakistan was cemented by the blood of more than 5000 innocents butchered in Calcutta and Bengal, on the ‘Day of Ditect Action’ call given by Jinnah in the August of 1946.

    August 16, 1946 was the day of ‘Great Calcutta Killings’ on Jinnah’s call for ‘Direct Action’.

    As per Wikipedia..
    “But the most dangerous riots in India took place in Calcutta and Noakhali (now in Bangladesh). After the riots were stopped in Noakhali, the Muslim league claimed that only 500 Hindus were killed in Noakhali, but the survivors said that more than 50000 Hindus were butchered. The Hindu population in Noakhali was nearly annihilated. [10]”

    It was these riots, that earned Jinnah the title “Qatl-e-Azam”, for which he never took any responsibility or apologized.

    It was the mass murder unleashed by Jinnah’s Muslim league on that day, that finally convinced Nehru and Patel, that there dream of United India, lay in tatters and they had only 2 options.
    1. Civil war all accross India with Muslim League followers , with no end in sight
    2. Divide India and grant Jinnah his wish.
    In my opinion, given the options, Nehru and Patel, chose wisely and saved India from a fate much worse. Gandhi and Maulana Azad, did not agree with Nehru-Patel in public, but they too privately understood what the alternatives were.

    Jinnah was secular in his personal life , irreligious, and had no regard for religious people. He practricved secular politics before 1940-ties. However, once he decided to use religious identity to fight Congress, his politics was totally transformed.
    He cynically used religion for his political goals and Pakistan today is paying the price of Jinnah’s legitimization of the use of religious identity in the political space. Taleban and religious right in Pakistan claim to be flaf bearers of Jinnah’s notion of a state for Muslims, which by its very rhetoric, is incompatible with a state for all people.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Naik Reply:

    Well said, Rajiv! Rarely does one come across such a balanced and erudite view in the blogosphere.

    [Reply]

    Saarthak Reply:

    I agree, excellent thoughts Rajeev!

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    It would be very good If Mr.Sharma said saomething about Train clash done by Maoist where 148 people got killed on a very same day and then talk abt vision of Gandi and Nehro for India..But nope..He will not do so..how he can do this…

    Taliban appeared in 2004 in Pakistan due to Pak’s support of war on terror in Afganistan…Before 2004, there were no such things like Pak taliban in Pak…Majority of the Pak taliban belongs to Pashtuns and they operate in Pashtuns areas of Pak like FATA & Khyber Pakhtunha (KP)..and Pashtuns are 15% of Pak population..Pak army already cleared Swat, South Waziristan, Bajur, Khabur agency from talibans…Now they operate in one agency of FATA i.e. North Waziristan which is hardly 0.1% of Pak….

    As soon as US will leave Afganistan, situation is Pashtuns belts of Pak-Afganistan will get stabalize and US is going to leave Afganistan very soon…Starting from next year…

    Ahmedis are 0.2% of Pak and we muslims consider them non-muslims but they have every right to do anything except they cant call themselves muslims and cant pray openly…In Pak, shia sunni riots doesnt occur where mob of sunni comes and burnt shia’s houses, kill thier men and raped their women…that doest happen in Pak..In Pak, shia Sunni terrorism occur where people get killed by bullets or blast…

    But Wat does happens in India…In India riots occur supported by their own Govt..The best example is Gujrat riots and Narendar Modi, Babri mosque etc. Nuns get raped in India and Churches get burned..Dalits talk abt their human right, Maoist fight cos of povery and discrimination..and wosre than all..there are muslims who are forced to live worse than dalits..I wonder how many of you have read shri Kishna reports..

    And then some one came from India to say Pak was the biggest mistake…Ah….If Pak was a mistake then India’s independence from british was a blunder..after 63 years of independence, dozens of bloody separatist movements are gioing on from Kashmir to Assam…and moreover..35% of world’s poor are forced to live in hell called India..You talk abt 0.2% of Pak which are Ahmedis but forgot ur 17% which are msulims

    Gandhi has told Jinnah..do not make Pak and you would be first PM of India after Indepencence…but Jinnah refused and he did the very right thing..

    Enough said..

    [Reply]

    Karan Reply:

    Sometime I wonder does everyone in Pakistan goes to Medressah for education ! Their reasoning is so poor.

    1. Taleban was always there donlt blame US for it.
    2. Whay an argument “In Pak, shia sunni riots doesnt occur where mob of sunni comes and burnt shia’s houses, kill thier men and raped their women…that doest happen in Pak..In Pak, shia Sunni terrorism occur where people get killed by bullets or blast…”

    Wow…..What a satisfaction…. ahhahhaha so bullets and blast killings are OK ???????
    Have you ever counted how many died in last year only ?

    3. Ahmedyias are only 0.2 % of population !!! So it is Ok to spray bullets on them that too inside a mosque ???//????? Very Soon they will be 0 % as Prophet will be happy i think.

    4. Blasphemy laws/ Hudood Ordinance are instruments of state discrimination. We are not talking about anti social elements. People have been hanged to death by law !!!

    Pakistan is a failed state and from a terrorist country it has turned out to be an extortionist country and the world is loosing its patience with this rogue state. I am happy US has put them on tight leash. You donlt even compare yourself to India nor its problems

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Beta…

    1) There are Afgan’s taliban who operate in Afganistan before..Pak Taliban came into being in 2004 due Pak’s support of war on Terror in Afganistan. Afgan Taliban control all over the Afganistan before 2001 and now more than half of the Afganistan is under comntrol of Afgan Taliban while Pak Taliban are the product of 9/11 and they hardy operate in North Waziristan. They are already cleared from Swat, south Waziristan, Bajur etc..

    2) Beta ji…You know how long since Maoist are fighting..They are fighting since 1966…They have killed thousands of thousands of your own countrymen…and after 4 decades they are gaining strength day by day….your PM have said that Maoist are the biggest threat of Indian Security..

    3) No..It is regretable People get die by bullets or blast…But it is done by individuals..But when a mob of hindus comes in Gujrat, killed muslims men, raped muslims women, and burnt their house…This is worse than all and this happens in India…beta ji

    Pak doesnt have big problems as India has..Pak problems are small as compared to India..No one in Pak is fighting from 1966…Riots dont occur in Pak..Pak doesnt have very big minorities unlike India…Pak is not a World’s largest country of poors, etc…

    At the moment, Pak Taliban are the problem which will be finished very soon and they have already been reduced to a very large extent..But wat abt your Maoist..You even didnt decide what to do with them even after 4 decades…

    Prof Ramesh C. Manghirmalani, Geneva Reply:

    While I would unequivocally assert that domestic violence and religion share no connection, that religion encourages harmonious relationships in the home, nonetheless, we would be naïve to ignore the fact that some men use religious justifications to spread hate in the home. Their actions stem from other factors, namely psychological problems (a superiority complex), cultural distortions of religion (withholding rights and dignity from women), and other, economic or personal factors (frustration and anger taken out at home). But this is not religion.

    The apt question, therefore, is not “Is there a connection between religion and domestic violence,” but rather, what are religious leaders and laypeople doing to combat these practices? Our leaders must unequivocally deny these actions, both from within the faith and the law of the land; furthermore, they must take proactive steps to tackle the issue within our communities, whatever its many causes.

    In the context of Islam, certain passages of the Holy Qur’an have been misunderstood and manipulated to justify domestic violence, despite the fact that Islam’s exemplar, the Prophet Muhammad, always treated his wives with total respect and dignity. Furthermore, he never used physical violence. Significantly, Muslims and prominent scholars from across diverse geographic and ideological communities are now challenging certain patriarchal interpretations of these passages. For example, Laleh Bakhtiar, the first American Muslim woman to translate the Qur’an into English (The Sublime Quran) and prominent male scholars contend that the larger message of Islam, both in the Qur’an and through the Prophet’s life, absolutely condemns violence in the home and violence against women.

    We must recognize that any verse (or idea) is interpreted within time and context. Those who refuse to re-examine the meanings of specific passages – whether Muslims defending physical rebuke of women or those who insist on Islam’s illiberal values – have “frozen” scripture. They falsely assume that verses must always mean what they have traditionally been understood to mean. To bring this idea to the Jewish or Christian context, let us consider Exodus 31:17-18: “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” Does this, then, compel Christians or Jews to kill their enemies’ children and take their daughters as wives? Of course not. Rather, we understand scripture according to context. Islam is no different, and Muslims are taking important stands against more violent interpretations.

    In addition to these interpretive efforts, Muslims are combating domestic violence within their own communities. For example, in the NYC area, there exists a number of Muslim-led shelters and centers that seek to combat domestic violence and support victims of it: the Arab-American Family Support Center, Turning Point, and Domestic Harmony Foundation, just to name a few. In Washington DC, the Foundation for Appropriate Immediate and Temporary Help (FAITH) is a phenomenal Muslim-led organization that provides help to domestic violence victims, regardless of their faith perspective.

    Furthermore, in response to the Aasiya Zubair Hassan murder specifically, Muslim leaders are offering the strongest condemnations of this abuse of Islam. They are writing articles, giving sermons, and establishing initiatives. I personally have received more than a dozen press releases from Muslim organizations denouncing Mr. Hassan’s brutal actions. Aasiya, in fact, has become a catalyst for action.

    Muslim women are acting. This July, 200 Muslim women leaders from around the globe will convene in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia as part of the Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality (WISE). One aspect of the conference will be the launch of “Jihad against Violence,” a project led by scholars, activists that aims to tackle violence within Muslim communities, domestic violence and violent extremism specifically. Through sophisticated religious interpretation and academic research, emotive case studies, innovative arts performances, and concrete action items like “best practices” trainings, this project will tackle violence head on. WISE has issued the following brief statement on Aasiya’s death:

    “The Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality (WISE) condemns without reservation the brutal murder of Aasiya Zubair. Her death reminds us that in the United States alone, an average of three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends every day. Domestic violence has affected all of our communities, and it is our collective responsibility to eliminate all forms of violence against women. We pray for her children and express our deepest sympathies to Aasiya’s family and friends. May God rest her soul in peace and let her death not be in vain.”

    On a personal note, I had met Aasiya on several occasions when she invited me to appear on her television. I cannot help but wonder, why did a well-educated architect, a business women, independent thinker, and empowered woman not have her abusive husband arrested, or why did she not speak up more loudly in her community against her husband’s abuse? God alone knows what she went through, but if I had to speculate, I imagine Aasiya did what so many women throughout history, regardless of their particular faith or ethnic community, have done. Women are the selfless glue that holds families and societies together. We strongly resist breakup and disintegration, even if it means sacrificing our own self-interest. By remaining silent, Aasiya sought to avoid bringing controversy to her beloved community whose negative image she was helping to correct. It is my dream and the dream of many Americans – and the Muslim community specifically – that we will use her tragic death as a rallying cry to eliminate domestic violence. May God give us the strength to stand up against this injustice.

    [Reply]

    Muhammad Akram Reply:

    It i not just the percentage of one ethnic group or the other that counts, it is the bigotry which is at play. Pushtoons are fighting for their survival and others. It just happens in Pakistan that you discard your blood brothers in the name of religions. who says murder of one human being is massacre of the whole humanity. The creation of Pakistan if was not by accident then it was a political decision at the least may be suitable to all the players including jinnah in 1946-47 but who made the sacrosanct more than its inhabitants.
    The etsablishment is reaping what it sowed in late1970-ties and the people are bearing for getting over religious without thinking what is religions and what’s its relationship with human beings. they r killing fellow beings in the name of prophet muhammad who never hit anybody throughout his life. the majority dont want to be like you neither they buy your argument. creation of pakistan was a mistake and we have reached to a point where we cant live in pakistan nor there is any country in the world ready to accept us. ‘long live pakistan’, long live nazria pakistan’.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    Sala,
    What a nice word to call :) So, you are saying Talibans are existing in Pak only since 2004. But people are fearing it is taking over Pakistan and is putting the world in danger.
    You only said, Naxalite are in India since 1969. Then how come, still India has not gone under their hand or world is facing a threat from them ?
    Does that mean, the problem is not as big as you imagine it to be OR India is much strong country to bow down by such problems ?

    [Reply]

    Irfan Reply:

    Mr fake Afzal, you don’t even have the courage to use your real name !

    [Reply]

    Masood Reply:

    Hi All,

    Mr Fazil, you forced me to look into Indo-Pak history, their religious culture, their vision for future and present relationship. History told me 1937’s Congress Govt, most brutal and narrow minded regime against muslims. Religious Culture is much better in Pakistan. Before commenting on Ahmediya’s Worship Place attack, Are Shodars allowed in the temples of Burhman’s. That indicates, if you are unable to welcome one cast of you own religion then how you can respect other religion. Vision of future, 70% population of Mumbai still live in slumps and several indian peoples are named among richest people of the world. Political system of two countries are same. In india people hates their leaders because of their corruption and evil minds. One example is Lalit Modi. Literacy rate in India is under 50%. How you can say that you contribute to world if you are unable to educate your own nation. Present relationship defines good conducts across borders. India has 14 Embassies in Kabul only. Can I ask what are they doing, is it for trade or training ….. India has issues with Bangladesh (Borders are now barbed wires), China, Pakistan. India is going for Arms deal with Israel and US for what reasons. Who are threats, an Ill nation like Pakistan or it is required to control whole South Asia region. India is secular state but with no freedom of speech. I read a report today in Hindustan Times that BJP is asking vote in some on name of replacing Statues of Chief minister with Idols of Ram. Don’t you think that they should talk about reducing poverty, increasing quality of education with proven job opportunities. Faults are in every country of world but we should expand our mind for criticism. Pointing out problems is good but living in same mentality that exist 60 years before is actually denial of education and intellectualism. People of both sides should think first before ones sanity.

    [Reply]

    Aashish Reply:

    Literacy rate in India is less than 50%?!…Who taught you that? Literacy rate in India is way around 70% on the other hand Literacy rate in Pakistan is just 48%…so first of all u need to get your facts right. On all most all the social and economical indicators India is ahead of Pakistan so first of all get over that illusion…I ask u the question…Afghanistan and its people prefer India over Pakistan(with exception of Pakistan sponsored Taliban government), Iran has closer ties with India, than it has with Pakistan. Why? We have border disputes with China, but they have never dared to promote terrorism in India(though they are way more powerful than Pakistan to do so). Pakistan has not only caused trouble in Kashmir but has also assisted terrorism in Indian Punjab, helped Local Indian Jihaadi groups, helped people like Dawood Ibrahim and his gang. You are indicating India’s “role” in Afghanistan, why hasn’t you government ever talked about it openly? You are questioning what BJP is doing abt some statues, may i ask u how do you think Pakistan(officially a non secular state) has any right to question India about religious matters. Why the whole world is more critical of Pakistan than India? You have to question yourself first just like everybody is questioning Pakistan about the monster of terror it has created.

    [Reply]

    bala srinivasan Reply:

    if one understands history then they will appreciate the two important factors which served the initial call for Pakistan as a nation as early as 1920. 1]the reluctance of british empire to leave INDIA for both economic&geo-strategic[against russia/USSR]&2]Jinnah’s desperation to power at any cost after the rise of Gandhi in INDIAN NATIONAL COGRESS&its freedom movement.unfortunately he didn’t realise his cancer which killed him &with it the future stability of Pakistan.this followed the cold war containment policy of USA&UK which built an ark of dictatorial regimes from turkey to Indonesia against USSR except INDIA.every body knows the consequences of that.the game changers were TWO.1]collapse of SOVIET,2]emergance of INDIA.this along with 9/11 has changed the western outlook of both INDIA&PAKISTAN.THIS TURNING of “TABLE”is the root cause for PAKISTANI DECLINE with impending possiblity of unraveling of that poor country.UNTIL there occurs a real visionary democratic nation building leadership in PAKISTAN it is BOUND TO BREAK UP.

    Arun John Singh Reply:

    Very very true

    [Reply]

  • Nikhil

    The politics in our sub-continent that often revolves around identity alone has ruined us in great measure. Vinod, do you think that a different electoral system in the Indian sub-continent would perhaps change the politics of the region for the better?

    [Reply]

    A.M.FAZIL Reply:

    Mr.Nikhil,it’s not the existing electoral systems, but the attitude of some of the the people in the Indian sub-continent that has ruined us. If we become more tolerant,patient and somewhat intelligible,we can easily come out of this mess.

    [Reply]

    Nikhil Reply:

    A.M.Fazil,

    I’d like to disagree. Compared to 1947, we now have more literacy, more wealth and better opportunities to solve problems in the sub-continent. However, these positive changes have not improved the nature of politics in the region. This is because the politicians are prisoners of an archaic electoral system where they are compelled to secure vote banks at any cost. Evidently, one of the surest way to win a mandate in elections is by playing identity politics; the politics of us versus them.

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear Nikhil,
    Identity is a reality we cannot ignore or wish away. But the 2009 vote for the UPA had temporized it with aspirations. Our only hope is to make the process more and more aspirational.

    [Reply]

  • sarfraz m

    I am a Pakistani & I agree to the fact that Jinnah used Religion to create Pakistan. However I am sure his vision for Pakistan was definitely not what it has become today. The Mullah here claim Jinnah as their own and keep on coming up Jinnah’s statement supporting their view. The seculars also have supporting statements of Jinnah. I personally think Jinnah never got enough time to clarify what the country is about. As a result the country’s foundation is week and its become a mess now.

    [Reply]

  • Naveed Khan

    Historically this article is full of errors and omissions. Taliban or the Jihadists did not exist until 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by Soviet Union that was fully supported by India. It brought in USA and other Western Powers to fuel Islamic Jihad to defeat Soviet Union. The phenomenon of religious Jihad that beset Pakistan/Afghanistan in eighties is the same. Jihadists, Taliban see present day occupiers of Afghanistan no different from Soviet Union. India, Soviet Union, USA are as culpable on Pakistan problems with religious militancy if not more! World must own up to its mistakes in Afghanistan. Why did India support the most brutal invasion of Afghanistan by Soviet Union?
    I wish there was a something that Pakistanis could do to stem this path to destruction. I wish Pakistanis become more brave and have more courage to speak up, write about it and come out on the streets to push back the radical and intolerant nature of Taliban’s offensive. They have to be and must contained. They must be turned back. There is no choice. There should not be debate about it. I want Pakistanis to stand up, claim their country, do not let it slip into darkness of religious intolerance. This must be done in every city, every town and every village. That is the only way to push back the forces of intolerance. It is a challenge for the Pakistanis only, I think like this article, India’s role is less than sincere. By writing shallow and historically inaccurate articles they are just there to hurt Pakistan. India is and will never be sincere to Pakistan. India is and remains an eternal enemy of Pakistan. Pakistan must never trust any Indian giving them critical advise on their problems. India’s advise is based on insincerity ill-will.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Good to get a Pakistani perspective. Its hilarious.

    [Reply]

    Raj Reply:

    Ithe author writes “t might sound ironic. But it was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto”…

    Why is it ironic?!! ZABhutto was instrumental in the origins of 1965 and 1971 wars (and the genocide). His mother was a Hindu from Junagadh! He wrote to Jinnah “Hindus are our enemies of Islam and our prophet.

    So called “secular” pakis are the ones who were instigators of hatred and terrorism. Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, an Islamic scholar opposed partition, whereas Jinnah who baely knew Koran instigated mass hatred and violence.
    Your title Jinnah’s vision is misleading. Except for that one speech, he was an impulsive, hate monger. The fact in 1920s and before he was different and one speech are used to paint a sanitized image of Jinnah.

    [Reply]

    Muhammad Akram Reply:

    i agree with you but do understand the problem is the mingling of politics with religion. jinnah did politics but of course the politics of minority that get the colour of religion. i m afraid if people in pakistan may be made to see what happened in 1947. the time may be running out for us if correct measures are not taken. religious bigotry had its ante up while humanist getting depressed with the passage of time. talibanisation in pakistan is complete because no body is ready to listen to rational view about religion. you cant be religious nor u can be against religion in pakistan. jinnah’s much accliamed speech that it is not the business of the state to view people on the yardstick of religion was censored and in place objective resolution was adopted to let the seed of hatred go and today it is a strong tree and that’s why i say talibansiation in pakistan is complete.

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear Raj,
    It is ironic in the context of ZAB’s packaging as a progressive, secular politician by his party, the PPP.

    vinod sharma Reply:

    @Raj
    Pl read Raj Mohan Gandhi’s essay on Jinnah in his book Knowing the Muslim Mind.

    ashraf Reply:

    Why you are worried about future of Pakistan. You should be more worried about your own country’s future. Naxals controls around 60% of India’s area which is more than Pakistan’s total area. They are killing people every day and just a couple of days back they killed around 90 innocent people by colliding trains. You should solve your own problems and we are trying with our capacity to solve our own problems. If according to you Jinnah was wrong than according to me neither Gandi nor Nehur were right either. If they think United India was the best option than who are Naxals, Assamis, Kashmiris fighting for independence from India? You have almost 14 different groups in your country fighting for independence. Is it not failure of Gandhi and Nehru and their philosophy of United India.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    No Rajiv, Naveed is trying to educate you a little bit. Its not your fault baita, it is human nature when shown mirror one cannot see or believe ones own ugliness. Most of the time your ugliness in your response, be it Pakistan or Islam. You are a product of your environment. Now cming back to what is going on in Pakistan, there are like Naveed Khan said multiple factors. This does not mean we Pakistani are not going to admit our faults. You guys might not like it or beleive it but we will come out of this much stronger. Now go outside shoot some pigeons, because those Pakistani Pigeons out to get you guys.

    More than 100 people are now known to have been killed in a train crash in eastern India.

    At least 145 people were injured – many critically – when two trains collided overnight in West Bengal.

    Police said Maoist rebels sabotaged the track causing the Calcutta-Mumbai passenger train to derail, throwing five of its carriages into the path of an oncoming goods train.

    But a spokesman for the Maoist rebels called the BBC to deny any involvement.

    A railway spokesman said 78 bodies had been recovered, but that more than 30 remained trapped in three carriages that were crushed by the freight train.

    Officials said rescue workers were still working to free survivors from the wreckage in the Jhargram area of West Midnapore, about 150km (90 miles) west of Calcutta.

    The area is known to be a stronghold of Maoist rebels.

    Maoist claim

    The state police chief, Bhupinder Singh, said a 46cm (1.5ft) portion of the train track was missing.

    He said posters from a local group believed to have close ties to the Maoists were found at the scene, claiming it had carried out the attack.

    ANALYSIS
    Continue reading the main story
    Sanjoy Majumder
    BBC News, Delhi
    Rail officials say the incident took place when it was still dark, so the driver of the Gyaneshwar Express failed to spot the damaged track.

    This is the peak travel season and the train would have been packed with people going for summer holidays.

    An investigation is yet to begin but local police say Maoist rebels left posters at the site saying they carried out the attack.

    The site is in a remote part of West Bengal, close to the border with Jharkhand state – a known Maoist stronghold.

    Maoists have targeted the Indian railways in the past, leading the authorities to deploy police patrols along the main railway lines.

    The rebels have stepped up attacks in recent months, and have called for a “black week” beginning on Friday in the region.

    Are Maoist rebels winning the war?
    But Maoist spokesman Comrade Khokan spoke to the BBC by telephone to deny any involvement. He said the government “put the blame on us and put us on the defensive”.

    Some analysts say that in this case the Maoist script may have gone awry.

    Maoists frequently tamper with railway lines and often these lead to minor derailments; there have been hijackings but no major attacks on civilian transport with such a death toll.

    The rebels had called for observance of a “black week” of protests from Friday to Wednesday in five states – including West Bengal – where they wield considerable influence.

    The incident happened at 0130 local time (2000 GMT) when it was still dark, which meant the driver had failed to see the damaged track, rail officials said.

    Rescue workers were still using sledgehammers and gas cutters to break into carriages where survivors were thought to be trapped, the BBC’s Amitabha Bhattasali reported from the scene.

    Bodies are still being removed from mangled carriages and helicopters are airlifting injured passengers to nearby hospitals.

    Hundreds of police, troops and emergency workers are involved in the search and recovery effort.

    INDIA’S MAOIST INSURGENCY
    Continue reading the main story
    Violent rebellion began in 1967 in West Bengal village of Naxalbari and spread over rural areas of central and eastern India
    Led by elusive military commander Kishenji, supported by between 10,000 and 20,000 fighters
    More than 6,000 killed since rebellion began
    Worst attacks include 76 killed in April 2010 ambushes in Dantewada; 55 killed in attack on police outpost in 2007
    Profile: India’s Maoist rebels

    In pictures: India train collision
    Railway spokesman Soumitra Majumdar said five coaches of the passenger train, the Gyaneshwar Express, had been derailed due to missing “fish plates” – which join rails together.

    These coaches then fell on to the neighbouring track where they were rammed by the goods train, he said.

    There were 13 carriages – including 10 sleeper coaches and a coach with unreserved seating – on the passenger train, the Times of India reported.

    Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee has visited the crash site.

    The government has been under pressure following a wave of Maoist-led violence.

    In April, 76 paramilitary troops were killed in an ambush – the single biggest attack on the Indian security forces by the rebels.

    Maoist rebels have in recent months stepped up attacks in response to a government security push to flush them out of their jungle bases.

    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described the insurgency as India’s biggest internal security challenge.

    [Reply]

    Harish Reply:

    Another self serving argument from a Pakistani. This cut copy and paste may be good for your satisfaction but it has little impact on anyone. You worked very hard and like always symbolize your poor intellect and childish patriotism.

    For one time honour to you

    Maoists are not to India what Taleban is for Pakistan. Pakistan’s very foundations were laid on irrational and illogical religion which was meant for a desert tribeand Taleban are fighting in the name of religion . India was not established in the name of Maoism and Maoism’s nuisance value does not pose any threat to state of India. They claim to represent the people who are outside the circle of beneficiaries of India’s economic boom. The tickle down effect takes sometime and autimatically this will die down. India has demosnstarted its capabilities to weather several storms and also making genuine indepence movements successfull in the South Asia by breaking Pakistan in 1971 and also thwarting fake and insincere freedom movements in Kashmir. So at will India can crush Maoism as there is nothing “divine” or “asmaani Kitab” concept about it.

    B Singh Reply:

    The suppression of minorities is entrenched in the Pakistani constitution. There is nothing to match this act in India. I do not support India for its treatment of Sikhs but I still consider far far better place than PaaKeestan!!!!!

    Arindam Reply:

    Mr Khan and Mr Hussain

    A very good morning to you.
    Thanks but no Thanks Mr Hussain for showing us the mirror.
    You guys are not showing the mirror but rather trying to blame us for the creation of a monster called Taliban which is now biting its own masters.I believe in Karma that whatever tyou do in this life will come back to haunt you.Thats what is happening right now in Pakistan.
    Even I want a stron Pakistan where the country’s politicians are not puppets in the hand of the Army.The day democracy of Pakistan subdues the Army that will be the day when I will say Pakistan has succeeded.I don’t know much history about Mr. Jinnah but whatever little I know I believe he was a progressive thinker unlike todays leadership in Pakistan.

    And as far as Maoists go we will tackle them you don’t need to advise us.as its our internal problem.You can say the same about your taliban but I guess they are trying to carry out attacks on anyone and everyone irrespective of nationalities..

    rak Reply:

    correct look how dumb these pak people are : I think they have no acces to information on india. Thats why they say things abt india like this

    [Reply]

    Jasvir Reply:

    The state of affairs of Pakistan tells everything very loudly how much truthfulness and sincerty Pakistan has. It is convenient to blame USA for Talibanization of Pakistan’s society but the matter of fact is this that It reperesent your true self. Radicalization at this grand scale can never happen until unless it runs in the blood of people. It is a fact. The brutal massacre of nearly 100 innocent Ahmediyas inside a mosque can not be put on USA shoulders. Did USA made these Blasphemy laws? IS it USA which thnk Ahmediyas are not true muslims ? Intolerance and discrimantion seem to be sanctioned by the law of Pakistan.
    The very foundations of Pakistan are laid on hypocracy of one individual who exploited religion to the hilt to fulfill his political amibitions. Sometimes I wonder what was Jinnah basically ? WAs he a freedom fighter ? How much time he spent in jail ? He had totally westernized lifestyle and hardly tried to look different from British ! He was neither a statesman nor a leader . The speeches he gave , even after magnification. look no better than the eassays that the aspirant IAS officer write in Civil services exam. He was just a good lawyer and cried in the name of religion and muslims will always be swayed by Religion and thats it. He never recognised himself with the poorest of the poor not even a common muslims nor he had any plan to to make Pakistan into a country having a readymade excuse to blame India. I am happy this Pakistan is not a part of India.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Same typical old indian mentality…Jinnah was a top class barrister who stood alone against Congres, Nehro, British, Gandhi…Go and ask this from Jaswant Singh. He will tell you more

    [Reply]

    bob Reply:

    Mr. Naveen Khan Look at your face in the mirror.
    Deep inside you are nothing but an Indian probably a hindu or a sikh.
    And try to trace back your family history. The truth is that the Mughals most probably forcibly married one of your great great grand mother to one of the soldiers of armies of allah or killed thier family members unless they convert to islam or circumcised ur great great grandfather by force or ur ancesters were so impoverished that they could not pay the temple tax. So converted to Islam.

    And this was done to millions of innocent people and children ! There is and was nothing gaa gaa about Islam that people converted to it just at the drop of a hat !

    Now that u know more about your real descent. Try shit talking with those who really messed u guys up.

    Any more doubts go get a DNA match Mr Khan ! Find out the truth !

    About Jinnah ! If Nehru would have agreed to let him be the prime minister of new india. He wouldn’t give a flying shit about Pakistan. Jinnah saw the power slipping out of is hands, he got insecure with the international and national popularity of Gandhi and Nehru. Pakistan was made on false pretext, 75% muslims stayed in india. It was made on the presumption that Muslims wont have rights and respect in India ! He divided people living together from 100s of years based on religion and spoke about building a secular Pakistan !

    Well, its not surprising to see that people with highest level of commonsense are exclusively found in Pakistan !!!!!!

    While a Muslim child in India can dream without doubt of becoming a doctor, IAS officer or the president or a judge.

    You Mr. Khan let the world know if a non Muslim stands any chance to become the president of Pakistan !

    And about who can be trusted more ? Mr Khan/Mr Kapoor (originally) the whole world knows who can be trusted ! india or Pakistan !

    U r a country of insecure individuals. Know the facts, speak the truth.

    Oh last thing ! If Whole America converts to Islam today. No one in Pakistan will blame US for their own incapabilities.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Bob…Corrects ur facts….

    1) Muslims of Pak are different from muslims of India and bangladesh..Lets take Pashtuns..Pashtuns were never hindus in history..they are descendants of Jews….Pashtuns are 15% of Pak..Lets take Baloch..Baloch were never Hindus..they came from Jews too…Pak Punjab is mix of Central Asian, Arabs, turks, Moguls, indian, West Asia including Iran….Only Sindhis can be hindus 1300 years ago which are roughly 15% of Pak…This is the reason we people of Pak r much taller and our color is lighter than ur dark brown color…

    2) The area where Pak comprises has been conquered by Arab amies 1300 years ago..in 712 by Muhammad bin Qasim and Balochistan was conquered even before 712…So dont talk abt Moguls who came in 1500 something…

    3) In 1947, Bangladesh was part of Pak and 75% of msulims came into Pak (PAk + Bangladesh) and only 25% of muslims left behind in India….and Pak was not made for all of the muslims of India…It was made for those msulims where they were in majority…

    4) Gandi told Jinnah not to make Pak and you would be the first PM of India after independence…Nehro first argued but later he agreed..Jinnah refused gandi’s proposal and He did very the right thing..This can be confirmed by BBC documentary “The last days of British Raj” in youtube…

    5) India is the country where only 2% of upper caste rule and minorities, dalits live all their life in fear and poverty..

    [Reply]

    Abbas Reply:

    Another best example is foolish rationalization by educated ones like Azhar Hussain and Naveed Khan-this thinking is the foundation of taliban and perrenial backwardness of Pakistanis. It not elimination of taliban thats the problem. Its the elimination of thinking of “educated backwards” like Azhars and Naveeds the problem. the idea of comparision to India shows the stinking junk thought process of among these pitiable fellows. the idea of a nation is greater than idea of religion-the sooner this sinks the better. As darwin said-survival of the fittest.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    the idea of a nation is greater than idea of religion-the sooner this sinks the better, oooops then abass mate u have solve the problem now as u say the idea of nation is greater so i want all hindues to convert to islam if they want a united-india, and we pakistani wouldn’t complain and join it, and look like u have already done that as ur name sugest,and name a single fittest nation that have survive and plz don’t say india………..

    [Reply]

    Akbar Khan Reply:

    Is that why you in such a hell mr.Imran????? Shame!!! to speak of religion and ask for conversion-does your mind not see people as people? thats the problem your nation and parent should worry about!anywonder why pakistan is such stinking pothole! Pakistanis are shuddring to say they are Pakistanis abroad a misery-you come to this forum shouting about your one hell of commitment to a religion what a hypocritic bunch of morons.I agree with abbas that its not taliban that world needs to worry about but people like you who have such thoughts in their mind. Yes Idea of na tion is and will be always greater than idea of religion. thats the reason why India is India and Pakistan is such a failure.

    imran Reply:

    @Akbar Khan: you still didn’t answer my question, would Indian hindus convert for the sake of Ackhand Bharrat is it a nationalistic salogon or a religious one you answer me? and as far as Pakistanis who are shuddering to say they are Pakistanis abroad look at the blogs on the internet many of Indians posing as tom dick and harry from western countries r they in some kind of stinking pothole themselves, and where in my comment did u find me shouting about my commitment to a religion I have no right to say who is a better Muslim or who is not and you know what’s wrong about Indian “secular” Muslims like u whenever a Pakistani says something you get paranoid as if he is saying he is better Muslim than me and in that paranoia u shut up brain close ur eyes , so mate plz wake up from ur deep slumber of this secularism you don’t have to ditch ur religion for nationalism, ask any RSS, Sangh Pariwar guy and he will give u what he think about this secular Indian nationalism………. and what u have to say for those who on the basis of what those crackpot terrorist do start persecuting ISLAM…….

    Prof Ramesh C. Manghirmalani, Geneva Reply:

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    The news coming out of Pakistan reminds us of what’s at stake in our relationship with that nation — which possesses nuclear weapons and serves as a base camp for al Qaeda — and how our Iraq-centric policies are undermining our national security interests in the region. As the administration struggles to respond to General Pervez Musharraf’s imposition of martial law, it’s important for us to step back and reassess our national security priorities in the region.

    The leading threat to our own national security from this region is al Qaeda. We took our eye off the ball when we invaded Iraq, instead of sustaining a robust military initiative and effective reconstruction program in Afghanistan. While the Administration continues to focus on Iraq, the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan remains one of the most troubled regions in the world, home to both widespread poverty and al Qaeda operatives. Musharraf has been an unreliable ally in our efforts to prevent the border region from becoming an al Qaeda safe haven. Musharraf has also been a roadblock to democracy, and while he claims emergency rule is needed to combat extremism and instability, it is the lawyers, journalists, and human rights activists he’s thrown in jail.

    Indeed, recent events in Pakistan highlight the administration’s failure to carry through on its stated commitment to promoting democratic reforms and basic human rights. In March 2000, just prior to President Clinton’s visit in Pakistan with General Musharraf, I urged him to press Musharraf to act on his stated intentions to return Pakistan to civilian rule, democratic governance and respect for human rights. I made it clear that the U.S. could never enjoy a stable partnership with Pakistan until those critical issues were addressed. When I visited Musharraf in Pakistan two years ago, I again made it clear that he had to take off his uniform — not just symbolically — and move towards democracy.

    But that hasn’t happened and by continuing to bet on Musharraf to shore up stability in the short term, this Administration has further eroded our credibility and commitment to freedom in the long run. Instead of a policy based on one man, we need to work on building Pakistan’s infrastructure and supporting democracy. Ultimately, this emphasis is good not only for the people of Pakistan but for our own national security as well. If we are truly to protect our own national interests, we must commit ourselves to promoting and supporting the rule of law and institutions that seek to eliminate corruption, poor governance, endemic poverty, and the historic marginalization that, along with the lack of basic freedoms and political rights, has allowed and will continue to allow terrorist threats to fester and grow in Pakistan and elsewhere.

    With these priorities in mind, we should refocus U.S. assistance to Pakistan so it is more aligned with the needs of the Pakistani people and less with a military leader who has undermined democracy. Counter-terrorism operations against al Qaeda in and along the Afghan border are an important element of our relationship, but that alone will not make for a more secure, stable Pakistan. Only a comprehensive foreign policy — one that moves beyond the administration’s myopic, country-by-country approach — will make Pakistan, and in turn the U.S., more secure. If we fail to take that approach, we will have failed to learn the painful lessons of history and will be bound to repeat them — this time in a region that is home to the greatest threat to our national security, al Qaeda.

    [Reply]

    King Reply:

    very right said Naveed Khan

    [Reply]

    bijo Reply:

    Good

    [Reply]

    jassi Reply:

    you came from middle east, divided our country. not living in peace and don’t let others. You
    guys should check , how you were converted in to Islam. Because most of the pakis are converted.

    [Reply]

    Abbas Reply:

    “India is and will never be sincere to Pakistan. India is and remains an eternal enemy of Pakistan. Pakistan must never trust any Indian giving them critical advise on their problems. India’s advise is based on insincerity ill-will” This is a typical belief of 99.99% Pakistani.

    “Pakistan is and will never be sincere to India. Pakistan is and remains an eternal enemy of India. India must never trust any Pakistani giving them critical advise on their problems. Pakistani’s advise is based on insincerity ill-will” This could be a typical belief of 15-20% of Indian.

    That is difference.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    abass then why u find 99% coments on these blogs bias against Pakistan or u 15-20% have invaded the internet or force the majority to shut up, plz stop ur bigotry and admit that u indians cant swallow up the fact that not only Pakistan survives but it has resisted indias’ hegemonistic design so plz grow up……………………

    [Reply]

    Sher Singh Reply:

    Yes, that’s right, blame everyone else for your problems. Pakistan was a perfect nation and would continued to have been if the US, Soveit Union and India had not destroyed this Islamic Haven created in 1947. This is typical **** that your government and your media feed you. Pakistan is perfect and but the entire world is against not only us but against ALL Muslims the world over, there is an evil conspiracy against Islam. There’s no terrorism in Pakistan, no taliban, no bin laden, nothing, the country is with our fault and perfect. IF it wasn’t for the infidels US, Soviet Union and India….all bloody Kafirs.

    [Reply]

    Ejaz Reply:

    India did not support the invasion of Afghanistan by USSR. Morarji Desai was the PM of India at that time and as declassified documents show. USSR had asked India to invade Pakistan but he refused. He also publicly condemned the invasion of Afghanistan by USSR.

    You should be thankful to India for not listening to the USSR and invade Pakistan then. Please do some research on him and his statements before making blatant false statements

    [Reply]

    Akbar Khan Reply:

    I agree Ejaz. Its fun to see miserable Pakistanis shouting across theuis forum about their so called “”culture”‘”" and foolish intepretation of religion. The funny part is how myuch these fellows are different from indian muslims. They do not have one international figure worth his talent in any field.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    ok i admit we don’t have SRK like muslims who worship idols as well as pray to Allah………

  • Paul

    How lucky for Bangladeshis? They can thank India , congratulate themselves and praise God for his benevolence. Very soon unless Pakistan learns its lessons minorities will be dividing Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Garish Reply:

    Oh please, if Jinnah was so tolerant, he did not have to ask for a separate Muslim state. The fact is Hindus/Sikhs were targeted and driven out right from the start. Islam plays a major role in Muslims’ live and every where in world it is exclusive and supremacist.

    [Reply]

  • Rohit

    Jinnah was the orignal terrorist. Remember ‘Direct Action Day’ Present day Pakistan is the truest monument to that wicked evil man. Thank God, ( or Allah, if one wishes ) partition saved India from a fate beyond imagining.

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    Do you remeber the brutal kiiling you sikhs and hindus did on partition day?
    The savage man-slaughtering?
    Not even a single person was left alive on the trains coming to pakistan!!
    This shows what a cruel, loser nation you are!!

    [Reply]

  • Rohit

    One more thing that Mr Sharma fails to make note of is that the Ahmadiyyas were one of the sects in the forefront for the creation of Pakistan as were the Aga Khanis. All these so called modreates. The monster that they helped create is now coming to devour them. India should firmly stay out of this mess and allow these implacable Hindu haters to slug it out themselves.
    Pakistan is one very good reason why India governance should always remain secular where religion should have no place whatsoever.

    [Reply]

  • nazir

    Europe separated religion from the state….then only did it move further..pakistan welded religion into state and the consequences are for all to see.

    [Reply]

    Irfan Reply:

    wow !, all the fake intellectuals are using fake names, nice !

    [Reply]

  • Danish

    Whats hilarious is that the Indian perspective on Pak hasnt changed in the 60+ years! You still cant stomach that we exist.

    We had to eventually pay for our mistakes of creating the extremist monster that we created.. sure enuff we admit we did.. now we are paying for it… and sure enuff just the fact that we are still there is enough proof that we will survive…

    but atleast we have admitted that we have a problem and are facing it… you dont even want to admit that you have a problem in Kashmir and Assam…

    so go ahead.. laugh at our misery… we dont expect any better from you anyways!

    [Reply]

  • S Khan

    Sir,
    It is not the time to sling mud on one another. The real problem is that secular minded people don’t come united against the preachers of hate on both sides of the border. Myself having migrated to the farthest country on planet from the subcontinent, I must say that these two countries need to come closer or one day the hatred will wash away every thing on both sides of their common border.
    There is nothing which can be a basis for enenimity between these 2 countries. I am not a professor of history, but I think, Mr Jinnah did not want a separate country untill just 2 years before the partition. If I have to blame some one, then Congress party and it’s leaders are a better choice, being more responsible for the partition.
    Now it is possible to make this border, a soft border, let there be free movements of people. If Indians and Pakistanis cooperate every where away from the subcontenant, why it becomes imposible in that area.

    [Reply]

  • US Citizen

    WOW – PAKs; always blaming others. “it is never their fault. As you sow so shall you reap”. The Pakis do not seem to be getting that. Ironically they admit their hypocrissy – i.e. Ahamadiyas are not Muslims, they cannot pray like muslims, they cannot call their house of prayers mosques – what a bunch of idiots – and of course it is the fault of USA, India, Russia- everybody is to be blamed but themselves – these idiots will never learn. Trustless lieing freeks- destined to blow themselves up – blame others.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    ooooooooops another crank, shame to be an indian claiming to be an american………

    [Reply]

  • Narain

    Some of the commentators ,on Vinod Sharma’s article, like their fellow Pakistanis are in denial.Pak is lost to the Talibs & to many more who think like the Talib fanatics.What hope is there for a country like Pakistan that murders it’s fellow Pakistani Muslims-the most civilised Muslims-the Ahmadiyas?A country born out of hatred with destroy itself in hatred.

    [Reply]

  • faakhir

    Talibanisation is not by product of Pakistan movement instead it is a by product of a political and security threat which Pakistan faced in late 70s due to Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan was not able to afford a direct war against Russia but also did not want Russia to be sitting permanently on its borders. The establishment of that time decided to use religion as a tool to fight a proxy war against Russians. They gave lot of money to Mullahs to brainwash young innocent people to fight against Russians on the name of religion. Lot of other countries supported that as well. Whole that fight against Russians were nothing to do with religion as the people who were brainwashing innocent young students to fight for religion, their own sons and daughters were studying in foreign universities for better future.
    So it is absolutely wrong to say that current Talibanisation problem of Pakistan is due to Pakistan’s independence movement. This is again a bad effort by Indian media to put question mark on the creation of Pakistan.
    On the other hand, by looking at Pakistan’s current problem, even if we assume that Jinnah was wrong in creating Pakistan, than Gandhi and Nehru were also not right either. Look at current problems of India, Naxals controls around 60% of India, separatist movements like Khalistan, Aasam, Manipur, Tripura and Kashmir are there well. On top of it, your internal divisions like south indians and north indias, maharashterians, tamils and telugus, gujrati and punjabis etc etc. If India is one nation than what are these divisions? If there is one India why there is a movement to through non maharashtrians out of maharashter etc etc. Is this not failure of Gandi and Nehru in terms of united India and one Indian nation?

    [Reply]

  • AG

    Pakistan is a failed state and the exporter of global terrorism. Their belligerent nature has already caused them to lose about half of their territory, and is now gnawing at what they have left.

    Supporters of Pakistan will forever point fingers at others instead of minding their own house. They’ll say, Taliban was created because of blah-blah – a childish excuse like the “he made me do it” kind of line used by kindergarteners. They will then point at the flaws of other countries – which while there, don’t excuse the cause of why Pakistan is such a basket case.

    What I am greatly heartened by, however, is the decoupling of India and Pakistan – both in India and abroad. The “****” term used to be applied to Indians as well – who unfortunately look similar to the Pakis. Now, more and more, Indians are known for their engineering and mathematical skills. India herself obsesses less about Pakistan, and more about how it take a more useful place in broader world matters. India should be glad that the happy accident which put most of the nutcases outside its borders. Jinnah’s brand of pseudo-secularism that created Pakistan was a gift to India.

    [Reply]

  • Ashutosh

    Much of what author says is pretty close to the mark. The genesis of present day crisis lies in the fact that pakistan was made on a divisive ,confrontationist , militant ideology. If muslims can not and will not live with hindus than other ethnic / religious groups are also anthema to them. Despite what our Pakistani friends say , it was neither US nor USSR , nor India that asked them to declare Ahmadiya as “Kafir”. This was done as the article says by Z A bhutto. Pakistan is based on excluding non muslims , so that’ s happpening !T oday it is Ahmadiys, tommorow it could be shia and than some other group. If anyone cares to remember even Bengali’s were declared ‘lesser Muslims’ , before they were put to sword in ‘71.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    ———————————————————–
    Pakistan..
    ———————————————————–

    I have not seen a more confused citizenry, than that of Pakistan.
    60 years of unbridled state propoganda, has left majority of its population clueless.

    Is army of Pakistan the hero or Villian ?
    Is ISI protecting the state or a vicious disease afflicting Pakistan and subverting the state ?
    Is Musharraf a hero or just anathor of the army dictators that have occupied Pakistan ?
    Is Taleban the great Muslim patriots, who defeated super powers or a political ideology that uses violence and has no place in democracy ?
    Is Lashker-E-Toiba militants, allies in the Pak quest to win Kashmir, protected treasures of the state of Pakistan or militants in the business of terrorism ?

    The list is endless.

    All Pakistanis, of course want a strong Pakistan.
    But what does strong Pakistan look like ??

    Here I will offer my perspective.

    1. A strong Pakistan will be democratic and the army subservient to the peoples representatives, as in all democracies.
    2. The state will be able to pay its dues. Pakistan government, is financially bankrupt since 2001.
    Its IMF loans, writing off of loans by WB, IMF, and generous US and international aid has kept it going. Sooner or later, it will have to deal with the wide disparity between what govt spends and wbhat it can afford.
    3. A strong Pakistan, will not be engaged in lieful propoganda against its neighbours .
    It will not see a Hindu-Zionist-American conspiracy in all that ails it.
    4. A strong Pakistan will not spend the excessive amount of its GDP on army but will spend on education , healthcare etc.
    5. A strong Pakistan will not have a state religion or atleast the state will acknowledge that for the state, all religions have same respect and status.

    What are the chances of any of this happening ??

    As of now, Zero or non-existant.
    Reasons.

    1. As the independent UN commission , investigating Benazir Bhutto murder pointed out that in Pakistan its not the civilian government that matters. Its the “Establishment”, as defined by the UN report as its army and the intelligence services like ISI, military intelligence , who permeate and control all aspects of Pak bureaucracy and politics. The UN report found that the police was scared to follow the leads in Benazir murder, fearing that it would expose ISI.

    ISI and army, will not voluntarily give up the position of power and pre-eminence that they have institutionalized in Pakistan.
    A very large percentage of Pak upper middle class is employed in the army and its intelligence services.
    The intelligence services in turn cultivate and control a significant portion of the media.
    So chances of democracy in Pakistan, where the army and ISI take orders from the civilian leadership are bleak.

    2. The state of Pakistan can be solvent, if it collects more taxes than it does now. But the culture of tax evation and corruption is more deep rooted in Pak , than is rest of South Asia. With no or even more weakening rule of law, chances of the state collecting its taxes are not bright.
    Insolvency will happen, as and when USA/IMF/WB decides.

    3. The propoganda against India, will not cease as long as the army and ISI maintain its supremacy. The militancy problem of Pakistan is a direct product of Pak’s own propoganda against India and the army’s need to have an enemy to justify itself.
    India has not occupied any part of Bangladesh or Nepal or Sri Lanka etc or attacked them.
    India is a status quo power, happy with its current borders.
    No solution to Kashmir will happen, as long as the propoganda persists.
    India is not seeking to get more of territory from under Pak control. Its Pakistan, which has been unsuccessfully trying to change the status quo since 1947, with disastorous consequences for itself. The state will not be able to change its India policy as long as it maintains the propoganda against India.

    4. Army will not volutarily give up the large share of national resources that it devours for itself.
    The civil society in Pakistan is weak and too compromised to rectify the situation.
    As long as the people see India as a bigger threat than the current army/ISI establsihment, the situation will not change.

    5. Finally, it was Jinnah who put the last nail in Pakistan’s chances of establsihing a modern, secular state by making religion the primary objective of organizing the state. How do you now convince the right wing that Jinnah was wrong because the rhetoric of ‘a state for the Muslims of the subcontinent’ , is exclusionary in its very definition. The demagougic propoganda
    against Hindus and others will not be easy to reverse and 60 years of propoganda has written that into Pakistan’s DNA today.

    So I see Pakistan today, as a patient in ICU , with multiple organ failure , attended to by a quack.

    India’s misfortune is that in Pakistan it has a stupid adversary and neighbour. If Pakistan was smart, then a mutually beneficial deal and arrangement can be struck. But there is no solution for an idiotic , un-intelligent adversary.

    [Reply]

    Singh Reply:

    Rajiv– well said from start to end.

    [Reply]

    ub Reply:

    Brilliantly laid out………!! I hope Pak citizens don’t waste time in justifying their country’s worth. They know it is a worthless country…….

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    Indians are always afraid of the truth!!

    The defeat of 1965 alone should shut your silly mouths!!

    And if you consider yourself so intelligent, why was Gandhi unable to prevent partition?
    And you should be ashamed! You ****** nation!! You assassinated your leader at the end!!
    When all he was doing was support jinnah and pakistan! and asking indian government to give our assets to us!!
    Don’t you see the brutal and savage killings you are committing in kashmir??
    Just accept that you are a jealoused, hungry nation!!
    Trying to devour other’s land, peace and integrity!!

    Shame on you, you loser ppl!!
    I wonder how many indians within your own country hate their government!!

    [Reply]

    Akil Akhtar Reply:

    LOL- It is even funnier when an Indian tries to take a higher moral ground. Look at Bollywood where all movies are shot overseas while trying to present india as a rich and modern country. If ever there were a large group of people living in a dreamworld it is indians. With dreams of becoming a super power they have already started behaving like one. Hope your egss do not break before they hatch.
    40% people living behind poverty line will pull you down if you are not careful.

    [Reply]

    Vikas Singh Reply:

    Well said mate..the people trying to flash some of the problems that India is facing, but they are conviniently forgetting that they all are domestic problems of a very vast and diversified country.
    By pointing out some rapes or some accidents doesent makes India look like Pakistan where God knows how many such incidents happen everyday with the help of their own system, and go without reporting.
    They never talk about the ethnic cleansing of the Hindu minority over there but they will talk about some standalone incidents of Gujrat and Babri, which was anyhow never appreciated in India too.
    India may be anything but the Pakis should remember that now India is one of the brightest economy of the world, a flourishing democracy, and one of the world powers in the coming time. Not like Pakistan, struggling for its existence with the help of their tool called militants.
    Also no one in world identify India as a hub of GLOBAL TERRORISM.

    [Reply]

  • Vipin

    Hi Azhar Hussain and others !! There is no point blaming each other (India and pakistan). Mind you this is an article written by an individual and by no means represent the view of the majority in India. But still you have right to pen down your views. Yes we have Maosit problem and i knew the problem was intensified by the wrong policies of the GOVT and its corruption. Pakistan also has its own problem like my friend from krachi told me he is scared to go to lahore and further north. Even i am scared to go to kashmir. We all have our own problems. The division of India was good or bad? I dont know but certainly lot of innocents were killed because of this. What has happened has happened now its up to the people of India and pakistan where they want to go further or backward.
    These politicans and the controlled media often present the wrong picture about pakistan and vice versa just for their politcal gains. Yes Fundamentalists are a problem in Pakistan and Moasit in India and both have to overcome this if they have to go ahead otherwise both will be further divided into small states.

    [Reply]

  • avinash

    The tragedy of India/Pakistan lies in the conflict between Jinnah and Nehru each aspiring to be the prime minister of independent India. Both were educated abroad and had their own focus on what they wanted for themselves from history. While the British had the policy of divide and rule our politicians perfected it for their own benefit. Culturally Hindus,Muslims and other communities had their own customs but were still Indians. Jinnah shunned in his objectives got Pakistan and Nehru became PM of India. Nehru/Gandhi dynasty still has its firm grip on power in India for over 60 years. It perpetuates itself in a democracy where no one else except those nominated by them can hold a position of power. JInnah would be turning in his grave thinking of the present state of the country he created. All this unending drama and struggle for power by these two individuals have sacrified millions of innocent lives, people who could have been content with earning a living more than anything else. Sadly the serial continues !

    [Reply]

  • abu Akram

    Ahmadiyyas, who are the followers of Mirza Gulam Ahmed are non Muslims. PERIOD. In Islam. there is no prophet after Prophet Muhammad ,peace and blessing upon him. Read religion of Islam in Wikipedia- it is very simply explained there.

    [Reply]

    takwa Reply:

    err- I think you mean no NEW prophet as we are still waiting for a Jesus

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Hey Abu Paazi,
    Has your internet started working. I heard that Pakistan telecom had blocked all access to Internet.
    Have some shame. Just a day or two ago, some a s s h o l e s like you murdered 80 people in cold blood. What the hell do you want?

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Correct your information first, there is no restriction on internet rather blocked facebook and youtube only.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    and some a s s h o l e like u murdered 1000 people in cold blood in Gujrat. what the do you want? you can always get a argument against every argument u make no one is perfect buddy don’t be in any illusion that u guys r any better………………

  • Raj

    After reading all the comments from Pakistan, I can sum up in one sentence.
    Blame India, Blame US, Blame Soviet Union,Blame Afghanistan.
    Let me introduce you guys to a new word, which might be foreign to you.
    RESPONSIBILITY
    I don’t expect you to understand that

    [Reply]

  • http://HindutanTimes.com Prudent Injeeli

    Pakistan, no doubt is a doomed nation, (Pakistani Muslims) like it or not. The curse, under which this country is, primarily is, because of its very warped and twisted doctrines of faith and social justice and above all, the twisted mentality of its people. Pakistanis can shout slogans against Face Book, against Israel, against India against Christians, but have no guts to look at their own self. We have just heard today that a group of zealous Muslims youth of Lahore, have created their own Islamic Face Book, Well done guys. I imagine, soon you will have to create an Islamic Internet, an Islamic county that shares no sky, no air, weather or climate; no firmament and no boarders with any other country; an Islamic food industry, with only halal foods and Islamic channels that only have your hate spewing TV anchors, wearing western dresses and using the technology of the kafirs. The problem with Pakistanis is, they are a nation with completely twisted mentality and even worse, a twisted and utterly perverted world view, from religion to all social and political perspectives. There is just no hope, with this nation. Their ultimate pride, Nimaz (prayers) fasting (only as token of hypocritical practices, without the real essence of genuine spirituality) Above all, a wild goose chase for the hoors, is all that is driving these so called jihadis, with applauds from men like Imran Khan and hosts of others with likes of him. Islam is religion of peace, tolerance. Wonder how long will it take you to prove it. Surely, actions speak louder than words. Cut yourselves from the rest of the world and go back to the stone age and wallow in all the primitive way of life. Why are you making hell of the lives of the people who would like to live in peace and harmony with all others around them.

    A Tail Piece

    The Pakistanis loath the word “Indians” and “India” so much back in the land of the pure, more than often becomes a defense shield to hide behind outside Pakistan. I live abroad and know that some Muslims run restaurant with Indian names, making every effort to hide their true identity and nationality. Back home they are proud Muslims and proud Pakistanis, abroad, quite humble and apologetic. The story doesn’t end here, some would go to the extent of identifying themselves as Christians on their passports, to ease their immigration predicaments at the airports and to find jobs and even hook a partner.
    Well done Pakistanis, Proud to be a Pakistani. And what more, if you have never traveled out of Pakistan, you have no idea what it means to be a Pakistani out of the “holy land”.
    Sorry, Indian friends for using and also misusing your ID Cards.

    [Reply]

  • Sanjay

    The difference between Pakistan and India is best highlighted by the exchange between Rajiv and {Naveed and Azhar}. Rajiv is offering rational solution to problems. Naveed and Azhar’s hallucinations defy any rational interpretation.

    The mental suffering of Pakistanis is almost pitiful – we are after all the same people. It is just that 63 years of trauma have made almost all Pakistanis one dimensional.

    Ghalib-e-khasta ke be-gair kaun-se kaam band hein
    roye zar-zar kya, ke jiye hai hai kyon.

    I think India should be generous and assist the Pakistan nation commit collective suicide.

    [Reply]

    imran Reply:

    dream on indians…………….. and ur comment shows the state of hallucination u indians r living in, and that 63 years of trauna thing u guys have still not come out of the shock,disbelief and live in a state of denial after ur trauma of 1947, this has made u indians schizophrenic which will only be cure when some one makes u belief that Pakistan is no more so its better for u mentals to live in ur hallucinated state of mind, and tell me don’t u feel better after saying 100 or 1000 time Pakistan is a failed state its doomed etc … and u guys will always be mental cos Pakistan is here to stay.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.hindustantimes.com Riaz Kashmiri

    Pakistan is now on the map as an independent democratic country. By the grace of God it will emerge a strong country. It is not hidden than most of Pakistan problems are coming from India. Have India been fair to Pakistan, the situation should have been totally different. The soonest the US forces leave Afghanistan, Pakistanis will be back to the normal. Pakistan presence turmoil is mainly due to its support to Afghans and USA against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. And by the way the change in India is largely due to USA support to India against China. It is clear to all Indians.

    [Reply]

    Vinay Reply:

    I also wish for Pakistan to emerge as a strong, independent and democratic country. But it can happen, only when people take some responsibility over whatever is happening on their shoulders as well. USA support to India againest China ? A beautiful floating idea. US always gave preference to Pak as Nehru’s ideology was more socialist. If USA stood with India when Kashmir Millitants were trained at Pak Camps, world would not have been in danger today. If US were to support India, China could not have have claimed India’s land as its own. Even Pakistan has supported China againest India. But what do you gain by just pointing fingers at others ? Whatever is India’s growth today, it has come by its positive thinking … not just by ranting about its neighbours. (I mean, we do it . But we know something more is required for our growth).

    [Reply]

  • Agha Ata . (USA)

    May 31, 2001
    Pakistan is a retarded child struck by hydrophobia. I just wonder how some Muslims can still think that what is happenning in pakistan is normal .

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    What is happening in your own country?
    Do you know about it?I think you should first look upon your own condition and then point out at us!!
    Poor, loser nation!!

    [Reply]

  • indpen

    Well, guys, we all should know by now that Pakistan will never change. For last sixty years, they have been given dose of poison which is now making everybody vomit. In other words, Pakistanis are repeating lie after lie to make it a truth. Now, all those lies are backfiring. As for Jinnah, everybody know, he wanted Pakistan for power. He himself started dictatorship. First he became Governer-general of Pakistan. Then in order to fortify his power, he himself became speaker of Pakistan Constituent Assembly by forcefully removing hindu Jogindar Nath Mandal as Speaker of Constituent Assembly. This act alone shows how much respect had for democracy.

    [Reply]

    Abhijit Reply:

    joginder nath mandal was not removed by jinnah, in fact he was appointed by jinnah, he was the guy instrumental somehwat in ML’s success, as due to him and his following cadres ML (muslim league) could come to power in the only state during provincial elections, Bengal. Its an irony ML couldn’t come to power in any of the states in current Pakistan. Mandal resigned later when liaqat became the head, and there were attrocities committed on hindus in East Pakistan. Actually he had to flee the country overnight, later on he settled in Kolkatta in anonymity.

    [Reply]

  • Abhijit

    Reading all the comments above, I feel, that we indians and pakistanis are living in self made cocoons, and never evern try to come out of it, blindly living in the world of oblivion. For each of us, problems of others seem bigger. Rajiv posted some intersesting thoughts, on nokhali and causes and aftermath of partition. This is true, Muslim League was behind calcutta riots and noakhali riots. But we forget the fact that Jinnah, though very ambitious, was part of congress, very close to people like Gokhale and Dadabhai Nauroji. Why did het get disillusioned with congress politics? Was “khilafat movement” a smart/justified strategy by congress? Wasn’t cngress bringing religion into politics hence? Jinnah opposed khilafat, he was a constitutionalist and a brilliant barrister first and foremost and he opposed gandhi’s ways of opposing british government(satyagraha, hartaal). When no congress leader came out to support bhagat singh , jinnah gave a voice of support. But alas, our history doesn’t teach us all this. Jinnah was given same step treatment as was given to others like bose by congress. Bose chose a different path, jinnah chose a different one. Post 1939 Muslim’s debacle in provinicial elections, Jinnah was a changed man for worse. People close to him , like his personal secretary left him…

    [Reply]

    Akash Reply:

    Abhijit,
    Yeah, man, we have heard that argument countless times as to how Gandhi brought religion in politics etc. etc. But one wonders why Jinnah then took to the same idea with venom post ‘39. Does it mean that he also thought that Muslims in general are emotional lot who can only be corralled to do something when someone appeals to their faith. What was wrong in 1920 was wrong in 1939 as well. Bose got a step motherly treatment. And, what did he do. Did he ask for division of Bengal. Assuming even then that this was a bargaining ploy by Jinnah, was this a sane thing to do? As a leader he should have known what would happen if people call his bluff, as Congress did. No one disputes that he was secular, but his speech about, you can worship wherever blah blah was a bit too late. The poison had spread in the system and we are paying for it even now.

    [Reply]

    Abhijit Reply:

    i agree absoultely…

    [Reply]

  • http://yahoo.com Sanjay

    Its pretty scary to read about how the junta of Pakistan drift towards pointing out situations in India, while keeping mum on issues that plague and burn their own country.

    Scary, ‘cuz they as a people, still don’t seem to have mustered guts to talk out as one against the Taliban, or against the army rule, or against their own leaders. Scary, ‘cuz they’re still a state steeped in religion, and cannot really muster enough courage to separate Islam from democracy, or even dare look within God’s own words in Koran for democracy.

    I have lots of Pakistani friends, most of them confess that they’d rather not speak out loud, for fear that they might be targeted in the next Fanatic attack.

    And that’s the truth about Pakistan. The people there are kept superbly under the thumb using a perfect blend of religious supremacy fundas, fear factors of India being bent on invading and subjugating them (SIC !!) and skewed views on their own religions, that keep changing to suit every Mullah who preaches.

    I wish the people of Pakistan the best in coming out of this mess. They alone can do it.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    The current situation in Pak will not last long as US is going to leave Afganistan very soon…But what abt India where Maoist are fighting since 1966..Wat abt Dalits who have joind Maoist because of Poverty and social discrimination….Wat abt Muslims…

    Leave every thing..lets talk abt bloody separatist movements that are going on in very corner of the India.

    India’s problems are very huge because of religous, social and political (to some extent) and these problems will not end very easily as Maoist struggle are 4 decades old…

    But Pak’s problems has started from 2004 due to US war in Afganistan which will end very soon..

    The problems comes when you ignore your own deadly facts like Vinod shamra who talks abt killings of Ahmedis on 28th May but forgot his own killings on the very same day of 28th May by Maoist which took 142 lives…

    [Reply]

  • Haji Rafiq

    There is only one way the Government of Pakistan should react to the terrorist attacks on the Ahmadiyya Muslim Mosques in Lahore: cancel all the idiotic “Marshall Law Regulations” by Zia ul Haque and also Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s constitutional amendment declaring members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat as ‘non-Muslim for the purpose of the constitution’. By not having the courage to remove those regulations the Government is siding with the Taliban. It is about time to show some courage.

    [Reply]

  • BkS

    Well analysed the cause of partion and rightly said that Jina was ireligious and took muslim identity to fight congress and gandhi took Hindu identity to bring the masses in mainstream to fight british.this was the irony of time but created misunderstnding in mind of jinah .Yes Nehru and patel agreed for partition as the last refuge seeing the communal disharmony at the time and Naokhali massacre was the worst .This is the ***** fate of subcontinent and Lamho Ne Khata ki Sadio ne Saja Payi

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    ————————————————————————————
    A simple litmus test….
    ————————————————————————————

    There is a simple, yet very accurate litmus test, about how tolerant and pluralistic a society is.

    If the population of minorities is staying stable or increasing, you can safely conclude that the
    minorities are safe in that state.

    No one wants to live in a state where his life and property are not safe. I would not live in USA, if my life and property was not safe. The fact that % of minority population is increasing here is a testimony to the fact that the state and society here is tolerant.
    Same for India.

    Everywhere in the world, where any minority is ill treated, suppressed by the state , there percentage of the populatipon goes dowm. The minorities, simply move away to places where there life and property are secure.

    1. Hitlers Germany, Jews moved away
    2. Tibet, Tibettans moved away, Han Chinese increased in % of Tibet population
    3. Pakistan, Hindus fled or converted to protect there lives and property at a unprecedented rate.
    I must add, even Aurangzeb’s brutalities ( Bye the way, Aurangzeb is regardded as a Hero in Pak history ! ) did not force Hindus living in territories of Punjab for thousands of years to flee.
    But Jinnah’s religion based politics succeeded , where Aurangzeb failed..
    4. Indian Kashmir, Hindus moved away and in just 10 years beginning 1986, the population of Hindus in the valley, came down from more than 10-15% to less than 1 %.
    They moved to JAMMU or elsewhere in India.
    5. SriLanka, % population of Hindu Tamils has decreased

    In fact, the reduction of minorities in Pakistan, is almost at a rate unmatched in history, with few parallels.

    No Pakistani, should ever dare to compare, India and Pakistan’s treatment of minorities.
    If minorities in India were not safe, they would have moved away, just as minorities in Pakistan, Afganistan did. In fact the opposite has happened in India. The minority population has increased, as a % of the population.
    That is the greatest testimony to Indian states tolerance and protection of its minorities. Its not a favour that India does but its a matter of pride that the state seeks to provide equal protection to all its citizens.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    ————————————————————————————————–
    B Raman, has a solution to the Pakistan “Problem”
    —————————————————————————————————

    From Outlook
    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265644

    The dilemma posed by Pakistan to US policy-makers and opinion-moulders is reflected in an editorial titled “Dealing With Pakistan” published by the New York Times of May 28,2010.

    Terrorists are the main foreign exchange earners of Pakistan. The more the terrorists operating from its soil, the more the aid from the West to deal with them. The more the aid from the West, the more the terrorists on its soil.

    The Pakistani leaders–military and political– feel that as the main source of threat to the security of the US and other countries of the West, the terrorists on its soil have brought for it a strategic importance and attention which it would not have otherwise secured.

    When Pakistan was born in 1947, it had a two-commodity economy– cotton and cotton-based textiles and leather goods. It continues to have a two-commodity economy. It has not been able to diversify it. In the past, what it earned from the export of these two commodities was sufficient to keep it going and to meet its imports bill. Today, it is not.

    Today, it needs a substantial extra source of income to be able to meet its imports bill and service its external debt. In the absence of any significant economic development, it is dependent on assistance from the West–mainly from the US– to keep the economy and the state going and to avoid bankruptcy.

    During the cold war, its willingness to let its territory be used by the US for its campaign against the erstwhile USSR brought it the required aid flow from the US. The end of the cold war saw its importance in the eyes of the US decline. This was accompanied by a decrease in cash flow.

    Pakistan’s value as the surrogate of the West in its campaign against the USSR was replaced by the spectre of its becoming the main source of threat to the security of the US and other Western countries from the terrorists operating from its soil. The cash flow was resumed and it kept increasing–this time not for assisting the US in fighting against the USSR, but for its supposedly collaborating with the US in its efforts to contain and neutralize terrorism originating from its soil.

    A two-pronged policy of collaboration became its new strategic weapon– seeming collaboration with the US against the terrorists in return for the cash flow and collaboration with the terrorists against the US for keeping the US fears of a terrorist attack on the US homeland alive and for preventing any threat to its own security from the terrorists.

    If terrorism emanating from the Pakistani soil dries up, its importance in the eyes of the US will again decline just as it happened when the threat from the USSR ended. It is in its interest to keep terrorism alive so that the fears of the US remain alive and money continues to flow from the US for keeping the terrorists under control.

    The US finds itself in a thankless situation. The more the aid it gives to Pakistan to deal with the terrorists, the more the incentive for Pakistan to keep the terrorists alive and active to keep alive the fears of the US. If it reduces its aid to Pakistan, there is a danger of Pakistan not doing even what it is doing now to deal with the terrorists.

    The only way the US can get out of this vicious circle is by taking in its own hands the responsibility for destroying the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistani territory instead of depending on Pakistan for this.

    This policy has many risks:

    An increase in anti-Americanism in Pakistan and a consequent rise in the flow of volunteers to the terrorist organizations.
    An increase in the influence of Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan.
    A spell of political instability in Pakistan with a further weakening of the mainstream political elements.
    The emergence of another Afghanistan, which cannot be easily brought under control.
    One way of avoiding a risky direct role by the US will be by assisting elements in Pakistan such as the Balochs, the Sindhis and the Mohajirs, which have been unhappy over the state of affairs in the country and over the increase in the activities of the fundamentalists and other Talibanised jihadis, to achieve their political objectives — whether those objectives are independence or autonomy.

    Terrorism is unlikely to end in Pakistan as it is constituted today. A Pakistan reduced to its fundamentalist Punjabi core surrounded by non-fundamentalist liberal Islamic states of different ethnic origin may not be able to exploit the terrorist weapon in the same way as the present-day Pakistan has been doing.

    Pakistan of the 1971 vintage is becoming an increasing threat to the homeland security of many nations of the world–in the West as well as the East, in the Ummah as well as in the non-Islamic world. One has to work for a reduced Pakistan to make this threat manageable and ultimately eliminate it.

    ——————————————————————————–

    B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Associate of the Chennai Centre For China Studies.

    [Reply]

  • Bold Defender

    Who the hell you are to comment on Pakistan and Jinnah like that?
    Do you know about your own country?
    India is so stupid that their leaders are supporting America against Pakistan. And they donot know that America is using them,!!!

    . Vijay Rajput says:
    October 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pm We Indian know him very well admirable person
    Gandhi said 100 Gandhi = 1 Jinnah

    The truth is that you yourself are TERRORISTS!!
    You are the ones who finance them to destroy us because you cannot digest PAKISTAN’S SUCCESS!! You are afraid of MUSLIMS.. And you think that weakening them will help you!!

    But you are wrong! You donot have any idea of our strength!!
    When we rise, we can change the entire course of human history!!

    Don’t you remember your defeat in 1965?
    When you cowardly attacked us at night?
    Ha!! That shows your courage!!
    Loser Nation!!

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear Defender,
    India never attacked Pakistan. By the admission of your own former air chief, Asghar Khan, Pakistan was the aggressor in all the wars. Moreover, do you disagree that the Taliban are balkanising Jinnah’s vision of your country.

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    You can never deny that you attacked us. And your defeat is the very reason you have never attempted to attack us again ever since.

    Yes, i do disagree. Because those terrorists are just your gift to us!! They are neither muslims nor pakistanis!!

    What i think is that before writing such articles you should solve problems of your own country. If we resolve to our own situations, it would be much better!!

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Vinod Shamra::

    would you also comment on Kashmir and plebescite..would you have the courage to say the people of Kashmir dont want to live with India. If Pak had attacked in India in past, then you had forced Pak to do this (BTW Pak had attacked indian held kashmir not the international border of India) when you refused to give the right of plebescite to Kashmiris

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    How about a referendum about if ‘Pakistan should be created’ !!
    Would such a referendum , pass in undivided India ??
    Absolutely not.

    But , thank God, Pakistan was created or else imagine all these Jinnah’s terrorists and religious fanatics in India ! Jinnah greatest gift to India was creation of Pakistan.

    In case of Jammu and Kashmir in India, the Jammu part is totally for India, while the Kashmir Valley part perhaps for independence.
    But, there was never such option. Both the most popular, elected leader of Kashmiri Muslims , Sheikh Abdullah and the Raja of Kashmir, preferred India over Jinnah’s Pakistan.

    Regarding Pakistan’s infantile and juvenile longing for Kashmir, I have just one suggestion.
    Pakistan has lost 1/2 it country in its juvenile obsession with Kashmir and has reduced itself to a begger who lives on western aid and takes orders from the donors.
    Can you show anathor country in the world that has lost so much and reduced to so little in just 60 years ?

    Be happy with what you have or else that too will not last !!!
    The writing is on the wall.

    Sal Reply:

    Another Moron came with his distorted figures and illogical reasons:

    1) 1945-46 indian elections were based on separate electrates where 492 seats were reserved for muslims..That means only muslim can be elected on those seats but that muslim can be from Muslim League, Congress, Independent or from another party…Muslims League was demanding Pak..So Muslim LEague won 452 seats out of 492 seats reserved for muslims which made up more than 90%…So Beta jii..This is Referendum…

    2) If Raja of Kashmir, Sheikh Abudllah wanted to go Pakistan (and they did) then what the hell Nehro promised to held a plebescite in 1949 in UN..Didnt he know that Raja of KAshmir, SA wanted to go with India..then what the hell he promised to held a plebescite in Kashmir…And is it not interesting…It is Nehro’s suggestion that there should be plebescite in Kashmir but later he refused to held a plebescite for a very simple reason cos he know what would be the outcome of the plebescite….You are the one who promised to hold a plebescite but later refused for knowing the result of plebescite…and then give stupid reasons for not holding a plebescite..

    You talk Bangladesh…You know God is great ….Here is the complete distribution of Kashmir…

    Indian Kashmir = 38,000 sq miles (including 1000 sq miles of Siachin)
    Pak Kashmir = 32,000 sq miles (excluding areas givent to China)
    Chins Kashmir = 15,000 sq miles

    Reference is BBC

    So you didnt even have half of the Kashmir from last 63 years…

    Sal Reply:

    *****It is Sheikh Abdullah and Raja of Kashmir wanted to go India

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear Sal,
    I am not one who despises Pakistan. I recognize that your people deserve peace. In my view, if given a choice, the people of Kashmir would opt for Independence which is not the option they’d have in any plebescite. The best solution for them is to have the best of both India and Pakistan vide a bilateral arrangement.

  • Rajiv

    The logic of “Bold Defender”, is pretty much what I read in http://www.nation.com.pk, everyday.

    He is not a lunatic , but the “establishment opinion” in Pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • Wazi Swazi

    Jinah was the worst one among the Paksitanis leaders. It is time to divide Pakistan, and eliminate its hated ideology for once and forever. We cannot live like Pakistanis in this world. It is time to make Pakistanis understand that you cannot export terror in order to survive. India should take over these unleashed Pakistani dogs, and Afghans should take back their own lands, so we can live in harmoney, peace and upto international standards of the time. Well writen!

    [Reply]

  • Wazi Swazi

    Pakistan is part of India. Soon or later India has every right to take it back!

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Sad, but what makes you believe that India has every right to claim it back after 1947? Would you like to share some light?

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    India should have taken back Bangladesh.

    did India consider that possibility in 1972 ?

    why or why not ?

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    @Sal,
    Did you get your education and facts at a league madrassa ?? If this is how some Pakistanis think, no wonder there country is reduced by 1/2 to a begging entity.

    In the 1945-46 elections, sure Muslime league won the Muslim vote ( winning 86% of Muslim reserved seats ). However, India is larger than just Muslim seats !!! Did the madrassa teach you that ?
    Congress won overwhelmingly the 1945-45 elctions on the all-India basis.

    Here is the full result . It includes all seats :
    “Of the total votes cast in all the (General, Muslim and Special) constituencies, the Congress secured 62 percent, the League 24 per cent, minor Muslim parties 2.5 per cent and the Unionists 2 per cent.”

    So , thats how referendum is done. All people vote and the winner was Congress with 62% of all seats, that includes Muslim league won seats. Thats how referendum is done in any democracy.

    Anyway, forget 1947. Just look at what has happened to Pakistan since 1947 , fueled by bigotry.
    Jinnah’s politics got rid of the Hindus but then what happened ??

    [Reply]

    karuna Reply:

    @ Sal,
    So nations are area, not people! Get a life, loser!!!

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    So you believe in people..Gud…atleast some one believe in People…

    So leave Kashmir cos poeple of Kashmir dont want to live in India and try to held a plebescite in Kashmir which was promised with them and you belive in people

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Wat r u..Ediot…Just talk abt What muslims wanted at 1947…Muslims League has won in 90% of the muslims majority seats cos muslims of thses areas had voted for muslim league and they wanted Pakistan…

    Congress has won in muslims minority areas beacuse of hindus votes but muslims of those areas still voted for Muslim league..but because they are in minority..they lose those seats…

    Overall Congress has won because of overall majority of hindus in India..So what is a big deal

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Furthermore Bangladesh was 15% of Pak in area which is already separated by 1000 sq miles…and now dont talk abt population of bangladesh

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Beta Ji…

    Muslims of India has claimedin 1947 that they wanted Pak in muslim majority areas of India in so referendum had to be done only in those muslims majority areas of India because these are the areas who dont want to live with India…Similary to determine Kashmir should go with India or Pakistan then referendum has to be done only in Kashmir because it is the only people of Kashmir who will be part of India or Pak…

    Referendum of whole india could be justified in that case if muslims of whole India had wanted whole India as their Pak and they had wanted all hindus to be thrown in Arabian sea…

    According to your logic…Is Sri Lanka should be part of India?…You can have a referendum in India and then Sri Lanka will be part of India because of majority of indians..Then you talk abt Nepal…Is Nepal should be in India?..then you can have referendum in India (or Nepal) too and because of majority of Indians..Nepal will be part of India…In this way, you can have half of the asia…

    Look how stupid r u…and you made me laugh….

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    ——————————————-
    Jinnah, Pakistan and its lessons..
    ————————————————————–
    Pakistan was the best thing that happened to India.

    Nehru and Patel , particularly following the Jinnah inspired 1946 brutal riots of Bengal, had understood that the religion based politics that Jinnah had embraced, was a recipe for disaster.

    Now if only Pakistan will stay away and keep its Kasavs , India has no business with Pakistan.
    India can concentrate on building a democractic, pluralistic society for all its citizens.

    However, Pakistan is a good subject of history to see how religion based politics can destroy nations. It has lessons for all.

    1. Jinnah wanted ‘homeland for Muslims’.

    So what was going to happen to millions of Hindus and Sikhs, in those territories ?

    By Jinnah’s logic, those territories were no longer the homeland of millions of Hindus and Sikhs, that were sons of the soil, even before the invaders from the west .
    90% or more of Pak Muslims are descendents of Hindus. But once you subscribe to the logic of the barbarians, you disown your heritage first.

    Hindus and Sikhs, left Jinnah’s homeland, as it now had no place for them and there motherland of thousands of years , had turn into ‘alien land’. That was one of the most tragic chapters of the subcontinent history, spanning thousands of years. Even the intolerant, repressive Aurangzeb, whom Pakistan has embraced as a **** Hero, could not do so !!!

    Okay, so now Jinnah’s Pakistan got rid of Hindus and Sikhs. Good job, Jinnah. Now what ?

    2. Pakistan, now got down to the business of defining who is a Muslim !!!
    After all, this was “Muslim Homeland’.
    Its a circus there. I dont know of countries that have laws to define who is christian, Hindu, Sikh, muslim etc. If you claim to be a christian , you are christian. If you claim to be a Hindu, you are Hindu. Thats personal business. Thats how the civilized world operates.

    However, the land of the pure clowns, got down to the business of a state approved definition of Muslims.
    The first community to be declared non-Muslim , were the hapless Ahmedias. An Ahmedi can go to prison in Pakistan for saying that he is a Muslim ! There are many other restrictions. Many have fled the land of the pure to UK, USA, India etc. About 3-4 miilion of them still live there in perpetual fear.
    I am sure , Pakistani government will take care of the remaining and eliminate them.

    3. Hindus/Sikhs are gone. Ahmedias will be gone.
    After that what ?

    4. The militant Sunni organizations, the crown jewels of the land of the pure , have already declared the Shias heretics. Pakistan has lot of work to do to take care of the Shians that make 15-20% of Pakistan.

    Finally, it will be different sects of Sunnis fighting each other, each claiming to be more pure that the other. It’s a fignt to find the purest of the pure, in the land of the pure !!
    Religious extrimism or religion ispired idiocy has no limits and Pakistan is a good example to teach that.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Listen guys writing on the wall in 1947 was that we Muslims want a independent nation and that writing is still on the wall, We are still happy with our country. As far as present situation goes there are multiple factors that are dictating terrorism in Pakistan. Uncle Sam; Russia Mossad and you people are also involved. Yes our inept leaders have played a major role in this mess. But as far as Pakistan, no matter what you idiots in this forum say and your wishfull thinking, we will come out stronger.

    Now go back to idiots discussion

    [Reply]

    Abhijit Reply:

    My wishes are that pakistan comes out as a stronger nation…you know when pakistan’s miseries start? They didn’t start few years back, they started the moment jinnah died, and with him died a democratic state of pakistan….only he could had led pak to some sanity, noone including liaqat had the guts or vision to lead pakistan. That was the difference between india and pak, pak had jinnah only and india had a vast pool of able leaders, alas we miss those leaders today. Jinnah could have never been so popular in 1940s , had all congress leaders like maulana, gandhi were not put in jails…

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    This blog is about India and Pakistan issues, assuming you can comprehend.
    There are numerous other blogs on this site on various issues, nothing to do with Pakistan.
    But then rationality and Pakistan are mutually exclusive.

    As I said, its for the world to see where India is and where Pakistan is.
    None of Pak propoganda, can change anything, other than creating more madrassa educated idiots.

    If you can’t see it, its okay, its none of India’s problems.

    But as I said, more you interact with Pakistanis, the more its clear why Pakistan is a basket case.

    May be the government of Pakistan should make a copy of whatever tape you want and send it to all Pakistanis ! Maybe you can borrow/beg some money for that too !!!

    So stay away, zero contact with Pakistanis may be healthy for this blog too !!

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Doesnt suit this kind of a language from a citizen of that country where 35% of World’s poors are forced to live which makes it World’s largest country of poors on the planet and in a year alone 2009, 30 millions more Indians feel below poverty line while total number of World’s poor becomes less in year 2009…(Reference UNDP)

    Sal Reply:

    fell

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajiv baita did you view the UN videos

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    All these guys went to maderasa’s in Pakistan

    Hindu extremists’ reward to kill Christians, as Britain refuses to bar membersRhys Blakely in Bombay
    Recommend? (8)
    (SANJEEV GUPTA/EPA)
    Members of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) party take part in a ‘Weapon Worship’ ceremony in Bhopal. Britain has refused to bar members of the radical group
    Extremist Hindu groups offered money, food and alcohol to mobs to kill Christians and destroy their homes, according to Christian aid workers in the eastern state of Orissa.

    The allegations follow the British Government’s refusal to prevent members of two radical groups linked to the worst antiChristian violence in India since Partition entering Britain.

    The US-based head of a Christian organisation that runs several orphanages in Orissa – one of India’s poorest regions – claims that Christian leaders are being targeted by Hindu militants and carry a price on their heads. “The going price to kill a pastor is $250 (£170),” Faiz Rahman, the chairman of Good News India, said.

    A spokesman for the All-India Christian Council said: “People are being offered rewards to kill, and to destroy churches and Christian properties. They are being offered foreign liquor, chicken, mutton and weapons. They are given petrol and kerosene.”

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    Ram Madhav, a spokesman for the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the largest hardline Hindu group, denied the claims. “The accusation is absolutely false,” he said.

    Orissa has suffered a series of murders and arson attacks in recent months, with at least 67 Christians killed, according to the Roman Catholic Church. Several thousand homes have been razed and hundreds of places of worship destroyed, and crops are now wasting in the fields.

    In recent weeks the violence has subsided but at least 11,000 Christian refugees remain in camps in Kandhamal, the district worst affected. “They are too scared to go home. They know that if they return to their villages they will be forced to convert to Hinduism,” Father Manoj, who is based at the Archbishop’s office in Bhubaneshwar, the state capital, said.

    The violence was triggered in August by the murder of Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati, a senior figure in the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), a hardline Hindu group, who had campaigned against the alleged forced conversions of poor Hindus by foreign-backed Christian missionaries.

    Maoist militants claimed responsibility for the killing, but the VHP blamed Christians and called for revenge. This week extremists said that if Mr Lakshmanananda’s killers were not caught by December 15 they would begin a day of violence on December 25.

    A group of Catholic bishops from Orissa believe that the attacks have a sinister objective.

    In a letter to the state’s chief minister they wrote: “This conflict is a calculated and preplanned masterplan to wipe out Christianity from Kandhamal in order to realise the hidden agenda . . . of establishing a Hindu nation.”

    This month Lord Malloch-Brown, Minister of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, turned down a plea for members of the RSS and the Bajrang Dal, the youth wing of the VHP, to be barred from entering Britain.

    “Neither organisation is proscribed in the United Kingdom or in India, nor do the Indian Government classify either as a terrorist organisation,” Lord Malloch-Brown said, in reply to a question from Lord Patten of Barnes. There have been calls from members of India’s ruling government coalition for the RSS and Bajrang Dal to be banned but analysts say the Government is unlikely to act for fear of alienating Hindu voters in the run-up to general elections in the spring.

    The RSS has been outlawed temporarily three times; the first in 1948, after a former member assassinated Mahatma Gandhi.

  • (Dr.) B.N.Anand

    Dear Vinod sharma ji

    I quote from your blog

    “To my mind, this problem of religious differences——————–that has nothing to do with the business of the state”
    That is what Mr. Jinnah had said in his speech to its constituent assembly in 1947. If I correctly recall, Mr. L.K. Advani had also quoted the same speech in Pakistan while visiting Pakistan to impress upon the people of Pakistan that to-day’s Pakistan has not lived to the secular vision of Mr. Jinnah as per this speech. See what happened to Mr. Advani when he returned back. The media and his party raised so much hue and cry as if Mr. Advani had certified Mr. Jinnah to be secular. But instead he had only quoted Mr. Jinnah which was never insisted by the media. He had to resign as party president and so much contempt was heaped on him by everyone here for ‘calling’ Mr. Jinnah a secular. Infact he was citing a quote from his speech.
    Now you also quote the same speech of Mr. Jinnah to stress that Talibans have balkanised Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan.
    It is an irony that when Mr. advani quotes this speech, different meanings are derived. But when you quote the same speech, there is no problem.
    Regards
    BNA

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    Dear BNA,
    Ask Mr Advani. If there was one journalist who stood by him at that time, it was Vinod Sharma. I am convinced that Jinnah was by instinct a secular person whose politics turned sectarian.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Thanks sharma Saheb for this clarification. I do appreciate it.
    BNA

    [Reply]

  • Abhijit

    I ask a question,
    So pre 1940 there was no need for pakistan, correct? Atleast there was no legitimate movement, motive etc., right? If you ask your forefathers , they were not anti indians, so what happened during that period? When we say movement, how many people went to jail? Forget people, how many Muslim League leaders went to jail?

    [Reply]

    rajiv Reply:

    @Abhijit,
    I think its a futile question. Once you reduce politics to religious identity, then its only religious identity that matters.

    Thats what Jinnah did. Jinnah’s Muslim League painted Congress as a Hindu party and itself as a Muslim party to the Muslims. The results were inevitable.

    In 1945-46 elections, Muslim league entirely communalized the situation. “Islam khetray main” was the emotive logic. Jinnah’s communal party won 24% of all seats ( less than even a quarter ), but that was enough to enforce partition.

    Looking back, partition was a blessing for India because the communal politics Jinah had unleashed, would have destroyed India, if there was no partition. However, history must hold Jinnah responsible for the millions dead and uprooted in the communal frenzy that his politics unleashed.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    The problem is many of indians are still ignorant abt their history. It was the rule of Congress after 1935 elections when Congress came in power has made muslims to separate their ways from majority of India…Congress did so many things during their rule like Congress made Vande Mataram compulsory which were not acceptable for muslims….

    If muslims had won 24% of all seats then muslims were 25% of total India at that time…

    The first major indian politicians of 20th century who used religons in politics was Gandhi..The whole politics of Gandhi revolves around Hindu philosphy.

    Have you ever not thought that there could be other reasons for creation of Pakistan other than Jinnah was a greedy person, He wanted to be PM…to satisfy youself

    Gandhi has said Jinnah not to make Pak and He will be first PM of india. Nehro first argued but later he agreed..Jinnah refused that proposal.

    [Reply]

  • rajiv

    Mr Sharma wrote
    “…Jinnah was by instinct a secular person whose politics turned sectarian.

    Why does anyone care what Jinnah was in his personal life ??
    If his personal view on religion and his personal life style and public politics differed, it only further shows what a duplicitous person Jinnah was.

    His politics , in 1940-47 period, was clearly sectarian, communal leading to the death of millions , starting with the blood shed that his Muslim league designed with the 1946 Calcutta riots.

    He is one of the greatest criminals of history, whose action and policies led to mass murder and carnage, along with the likes of Hitler and Stalin. In his murderous frenzy before 1946 riots he is quoted “I will have India divided or have it destroyed’.

    Nothing good could possibly come out of a state based on such sectarian and communal principles of Jinnah and Pakistan is proof positive of that.

    [Reply]

    karuna Reply:

    Hitler, Stalin, Jinnah – is there not a streak of megalomania in all of them?

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    O shutup *******!!
    When you donot know about jinnah, donot speak anything!

    Look upon your poor nation first!!

    [Reply]

  • http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com Shah Alam Khan

    Dear Vinod ji,
    Your article has generated some critical, unprecedented debate. Honestly I do not buy the argument that Jinnah was an intrinsic secularist for a simple reason that a secularist would not dare divide the country on purely religious lines what ever may come. I am suspect of the intent more than the act. History has a knack of judging people and Jinnah hasn’t score highly on the secular front. Having said this, I consider him a shrewd politician who could manipulate himself to power using religious sentiments of a community (no wonder the likes of Advani adore him!!!)
    The other interesting thing which this article has revealed was the overhelming response (and spite) from across the fence. It just goes on to show the legacy left behind by Jinnah (sort of vindicates what I said above). Of course we cannot generalise but this is indeed the lunatic fringe of the Pakistani society which is blind to rationality and reasoning. So if we have Rajeev then they too have a Sal and a Bold Defender….there is no dearth on both sides. What gives me hope is that there are likes of Usman sahib in Pakistan and this is heartening for us – we still have someone to answer the call bell at the door…………..just like you answering it all the time on this side!
    Truly,
    Dr.Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi
    INDIA
    Blog: http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    @Shah Alam Khan
    Couldn’t have agreed with you more on the survival of sane voices on either side despite the worst of odds.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Aadaab Dr Khan,

    Thank You for your welcoming comments directed towards me. I too feel like a stranger on the blog with number of free flow vindicates from every where. Although, I support good and healthy discussion but given in certain parameters and decency. As for the little hope:

    Paiwasta reh shajaar se ummed e bahar rakh (Iqbal)

    Wa’Salam,
    Usman .S. Chaudhry

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Usman saheb
    Please translate this couplet in simple language for me. Is it in Urdu or in Persian? If it is urdu, then my urdu learning is really going very slow.
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Greetings Dr Anand,

    It is Urdu. The literal translation is “Stick to the tree and hope for spring”. Meaning: Despite how bad the situation (circumstances) are hope for the best. Something in English which goes by: After every dark night there is a new morning.

    Your urdu and german learning is inspirational to me. I think i should equally catch up with you on Hindi and other languages.

    Regards,
    Usman

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Usman Sahib,
    Aadaab,
    Your Iqbal’s quote from Bang e dara is inspirational and very appropriate. My grandfather was an urdu poet of some repute (Ghulam Rabbani Taban) and therefore it would be approproate for me to say:

    ÿeh apna apna tha hosla, yeh apni apni urhaan thi
    Koi urh k baam tak reh gaya, koi kehkashan se nikal gaya

    Please keep coming back to Vinod ji’s blog…there is so much paucity of sane voices like yours.
    Truly,
    Shah Alam Khan
    New Delhi, India

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Its seems most of you guys need to read what Jinnah said at that time, read JINNAH by Jashwit Singh, he is still an Indian. But you know how people reacted to him writing God for Bid something positive. Thats the level of indolerance you people have. You people are like the Israelis, they can kill thousands, but God for Bid anyone show them the mirror, they like you people start talking about democarcy; freedom of speech and secularism.

    As far as Pakistan at present goes, there are multiply factors contributing to this mess we have in Pakistan. Most of the contribution comes from our won inept leadership. We are reaping the fruits of Zia Ul Haq’s rule, but we will recover.

    In the mean time look out for the pigeons outside

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    Agreed..

    [Reply]

    Bold Defender Reply:

    Agreed..

    Indians are total losers!! Afraid of their own fate!! Trying to suppress their inner fears by speaking out against Pakistan and Jinnah!!

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Azhar..they will not read Jaswant Singh..They will hate Jiinah for making Pakistan and they will do ever…They will not talk anything aby Nehro who was the one who gave proposal of plebescite in Kashmir and he was the one who betrayed..They will not talk abt Gandhi whoose whole politics revolves around Hindu philiophy….

    They will never accept that a vsat majority of muslims wanted Pakistan in 47…Infact they will say..noo..it is Jinnah who made fool muslims of India….

    They will never realized what were the reasons which forced muslims to separate their ways from rest of the India..They will forget their own killings of thousands of thousands of minorities like Sikh, Golden Temple, Babri mosque, Kashmiris, Gujrat riots, bombay riots, Raped nuns but they will definately talk abt killings of Ahmedis and Shia….

    They must talk bat Taliban but they dont talk abt Maoist….They will never realized that muslims are 17% of India at the moment but in their civil service, they are less than 5% and 3% in their armed forces…

    They live in denial but they must tell you it is Pak who live in denial…

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    You can see the general quality of Pak debate by reading sal , pak defender etc.

    Regarding pakistanidefenseforum, ist an al-qaida forum. You have to apply for membership to write there, few yearsw ago when I tried. Its run by the same guys who have reduced Pakistan to what its today.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    “Regarding pakistanidefenseforum, ist an al-qaida forum”. There were days in Indian history when mothers put their kids to sleep, by saying “Tipu Sultan is coming” and now this Al-Qaida shit….Both are facts but laughable.

    Rajiv baita you don’t have to teach us to debate but you do need atleast accept facts are facts, by you people ranting and shouting till the fat lady sings, is not going to change the facts.

    Israelis said that groups of the peace ships which were going to Gaza to deliever relief items had links to Al-Quaida….. Rememeber one thing occupyiers where they are always live in fear.. whether it is Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan or Kahsmir

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    @Sal:
    You wrote “They will not talk abt Gandhi whose whole politics revolves around Hindu philiophy….” Couldn’t understand the significance of this statement? Was this supposed to be against Gandhi who unfortunately was killed by Hindu fanatics? If I may remind you that the man who killed Gandhi was upset by the fact that the Mahatma was planning an unshan (fast unto death) so that India clears the money it owed to Pakistan during the transfer of power. It would be gunnah-e-azeem to call Gandhi names.
    Secondly, you write majority of Muslims wanted Pakistan in 1947. Then how come there are still more Muslims in India than in Pakistan? You probably meant Northern Muslims? That would have made some sense. The Muslims of South India cannot even speak the same language as you do (remember what happened when a Bangla speaking Muslim part of India was artificially articulated with Pakistan?)
    Third, you are correct there are many intrinsic problems in India….communal riots, caste system, Maoism, etc. But the basic difference between what is going on in Pakistan and what happens in India is the fact that there are voices from majority Hindus who resist the injustice in India. Mr Vinod Sharma, on whose blog we are debating, is one such voice. There is no paucity of such voices and this is the reason why minorities like us can can survive in a country which is 80 percent Hindu. Just think if a similar statement can be made by a Pakistani Sindhi Hindu?
    By the way are you based In Pakistan or are you a Non resident Pakistani? Having lived in the West, I have seen that Pakistanis living in the West are more nationalist and hence automatically more anti-Indian in their thoughts. Honestly, it’s good if you are a nationalist but that shouldn’t by any stretch of imagination make you an anti-Indian. Hope this lets you see things in a better perspective.
    Truly,
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi
    India
    Blog: http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Dr. Shah alam Khan

    1) Muslim LEague nealry got 90% of the seats of 1945-46 elections in alll over the india which were based on separates electrates and Muslim League was demanding Pakistan…That implies 90% of muslims wanted Pakistan….

    2) In 1947, Bangladesh was part of Pak and 75% of muslims of India came into Pak (Pak + Bangladesh) and only 25% left behind in India..Furthermore Pak was made for only muslims where they were in majority. But many muslims migrated to Pak due to riots which occured after the partition.

    3) Someone has said that Jinnah had used religon in politics..If this was case then Gandhi was the first one who used religon decades ago…Though I admire Gandhi for certain things…

    4) There are also voices against any injustice that happened in Pak. If you dont know then this is not our problem..

  • http://- Rajeev

    I am really enjoying this debate.
    This should be eye-opener for Indians who want Bhai-Bhai relationship with cousins of Taliban (Pakis). These pakistanis can’t think beyond hindu, India, Bania etc. Thankfully this is Indian blog, else you will be called Cow Piss drinker, Bhangi etc.

    for more abuses pakistani style go to-
    pakistanidefenceforum.com discussion forum.

    Logging out…

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    If you hear Paskistanis, there logic is something like

    All humans are sinners.
    Gandhi was human, so he is a sinner.
    Pak terrorists are also humans, so they are also sinners.
    India is also bad. Riots happen in India also.

    Have they bothered to see , how Pak and India compare today ?

    Pak’s citizens are scared to admit they are Pakistanis abroad.
    There government begs for money around the world.

    Given the low IQ level of Pak debate, what they don’t undrstand is that while bad things happen in all countries, its in Pakistan that the state sponsors terrorism and all other evel. In India, the state prosecutes them,

    Maoist or rioters from Gujrat to Kashmir, are prosecuted by the state.

    In Pakistan, the criminals from Kasav to Hafiz Saeed to Taleban are a product of the state.

    Pakistani Jihadi criminal terror is not a automatic product of pakistani people, but a DELIBERATE product of the state. Nothing is changing there. In fact , the defenders like Sal, Pak defender are putting the last nails on the coffin of Pakistan. India should just stand aloof and watch.

    Reagrding so called plesbicite in Kashmir, Nehru made an error and India corrected itself.
    After seeing how Jinnah’s Pakistan eliminated minorities, no sane government can agree to civil procedures.

    Even as per the NON-MANDATORY UN resolution, once Pakistan vacated PoK, vacates Gilgit, vacates Baltistan, removes all the Pakistani punjabis and others from the soil of PoK and restores the demographic composition of Pok, as it existed in 1947, including restoring the Hindus, India can think about plesbicite.
    Its a NON-MANDATORY and Un-enforceable UN resolution anyway.

    The entire PoK has to be handed over to India first. Thats what the UN said , then it said India can hold plesbicite, that too the resolution was not enforceable by UN.

    Anyway, agreeing to un-enforceable UN resolution, was a error because Pak is a minority-killing criminal party. So Nehru, corrected his error, as soon as he could, after seeing how Pak eliminated Hindus after 1947.

    Bye the way, the other pre-requisite is, plesbicite can only be held , when the other party has demonstrated that it has not killed and eliminated minorities. How will Pakistan fix its criminal hisrtory of last 60 years ??

    Will just shouting here and defending the acts of a criminal state , change the image and history of Pakistan ?

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Rajiv

    Atleast Pak is not lablelled as World’s largest country of poors on planet..Cheers 35% of World’s poor lives in ur country…You can be among one of them..

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    ———————————————————–
    Answers
    ———————————————————–

    When ever, Pakistanis are cornered and do not have any answer to the pathetic state, they find there country in, they think they can excuse there sordid state, and solve all there problems , by talking about

    1. Plesbicite in Kashmir
    2. Muslims in India

    Unfortunately, they can shout but cannot hide !

    So here are the answers, not to be found in any madrassa of Pakistan
    .
    ———–
    Kashmir
    ———–

    1. Kashmir joined India legally. All of it. The king of Kashmir signed the instrument of assession.
    Even the most popular leader of Kashmir, then leader of Kashmir national conference, Sheikh Abdullah, chose India over the rampaging tribals and the Pak army-men that had invaded J&K.
    Later, even the J&K assembly, ratified the accession.
    The only legal issue is the quantum of autonomy and nothing else. Case closed.

    Regarding UN, it had passed a resolution under its ‘NON-ENFORCEABLE’ chapter, asking for plesbicite. UN resolutions , passed under NON-MANDATORY and NON-ENFORCEABLE chapters, are just that. There implementation depends on the goodwill and mercy of the states involved. Pak exhausted all good will when it eliminated its minorities and forced virtually all Hindus out . It has since constitutionalized discrimination.

    The resolution itself, had many preconditions, including Pakistan vacating Gilgit, Baltistan, PoK and restoring the demographic composition to 1947, Pak NEVER met its obligations.
    The first step is restoring all of PoK to Indian control and restoring its demographic composition.

    However, the demographic composition of PoK, had already under-gone a sea change because of mass murder by Jinnah’s Muslim league and state sponsored tribals. So plesbicite was a non-starter, like a still-born child or Pakistan.

    Nehru, a human, made a momentary mistake on accepting it. He corrected it later as soon as he could and even the UN now accepts that events of history have consigned those meaningless un-enforceable, non-mandatory resolutions, to the dustbin of history.

    India’s legal case is based on the legal instrument of assesion. Kashmiris are full and equal citizens of Independent India.
    Just last month, a Kashmiri muslim Indian citizen, was the topper in the most prestigious All India civil services exam.
    Was that news BANNED in pakistan ?

    There is a seperatist section among Kashmiris and just like many other seperatist movements in different parts of India over its history, this too will be resolved within the democratic set-up of India.

    ————-
    2. Muslims in India..
    ————-

    Do the Pakistanis realize that the richest Muslim in India, Azim Premji, can buy the top 100 richest Muslims of Pakistan and still have some money left ??
    Stop and think about it for a few seconds.

    Okay, times up !

    Now Azim PREMJI , the owner of one of India’s topmost IT company WIPRO , is a Muslim Shia. Is he still a Muslim in the land of the pure ?

    Regarding representation in civil services, there is disparity, not just for Muslims , but accross different sections of India.
    Thats because the level of education is different anmong different regions, linguistic, ethnic and religious groups of India.
    The democractic governments of India, are trying to solve that disparity by providing equal opportunities and in some cases quotas and preferences for some.

    Only last month, the top winner of All India’s civil services exam was Shah FAESAL, a kashmiri Muslim. So yes Muslims can be toppers, unlike all those terrorists produced by ISI/Army of Pakistan.

    Do Pakistanis realize, the top 100 Pakistani lollywood film-stars cannot match the fame and fortune of a single Shah Rukh Khan or Amir Khan ?

    Many Indian Muslims have excelled in private enterprise, Indian foreign services, Indian film Industry and sports. Indian film Industry may have more than 17% Muslims, so what ?

    How many Pakistani Sunni Muslim nobel laurets has Pakistan produced ?
    You cannot claim even one, because he is disqualified Muslim.
    Why do you guys insist on being clowns ??
    Will you now accuse Noble comittee of discrimination against Pakistani Muslims ?
    A very large percentage of Indians, occupy top positions in US in industry and government, in far excess of there % of the population.
    Will you now accuse US administration, on whose aid your govt survives, of discriminating in favour of Indians ?

    India is far from perfect. However the democratic set-up offers opportunities to fix the disparities and problems.

    What does Pak offer ? Is it not the largest producer of criminal terrorists in the world ?
    Is it not a bankrupt, begger state, where Army and intelligence services rule the people ?

    Stop worrying about Muslims of India And worry about Muslims of Pakistan.
    We will stop worrying about you, the day your army/ISI stops exporting terrorism.
    Other than that, asking you to stop exporting terrorism, we have no business with you.
    None what so ever.

    The Muslims of India, a growing minority, can take care of themselves. The only thing they cannot match PAK is in producing terrorists.

    Note : Take time and read, before making more excuses for the sorry state of Pak.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Typical same old Indian mantra ..Just talk abt few muslims individuals of India..

    There are millions of muslims living in India..so its very easy to names some few individuals.. 17% of India is muslims and they are less than 5% in Civil services of india and less than 3% of Indian armed forces…This is the plight of indians muslims..

    Saif ali Khan, Shobana Azma cant find a house in bombay neighbourhood beacuse of being muslims….

    Your own PM wants reserved seat for muslims in indian civil sector together with dalist..and reason is obivous..

    Rest is Gujrat Riots, Babri mosque, Bommbay riots….

    Nope…Its Ok…keeping giving few musiims individuals and them make yourself happy.

    As far as plebescite is concenrned…I have already said enough

    [Reply]

  • http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com Shah Alam Khan

    @Rajiv
    Do you really feel that we need to answer these absurd queries by poeple who have no clue of history or geography of their country? The debate here is between reason and irrelevence. If they can argue on the basis of hatred lets give them the trophy. I would rather dissociate from such undue rhetoric. And yes I am expecting a ” you are a kafir”kind of comment very soon! :)
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi

    [Reply]

    Ashish Reply:

    Dear Dr Khan,
    always a pleasure to read you here.
    For your reading pleasure and especially of the commentators from across the border, specially, may I recommend the latest from Nadeem Paracha?

    http://blog.dawn.com/2010/05/29/frayed-ends-of-sanity/

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?36923-India-s-Minorities-situation-in-United-Nations-MUST-WATCH

    Don watch all the videos, It might show your ugly face.

    Question to the Dr Shah Alam Khan from New Delhi, is it permissible for a Muslim to do Ganish’s Puja?

    Do you really feel that we need to answer these absurd queries by poeple who have no clue of history or geography of their country? Allam Khan you are going to teach us our history and georaphy, you guys will go to any length to show your indianess. What a pathetic way to live.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    —————————————-
    Bottomline
    —————————————

    India has a increasingly, a very poor opinion of the Pakistan state, its army, ISI .
    The new generation of Indians, is not emotional about pre-partition days, and views Pakistan as a poor neighbourhood nuisance , who must be avoided.

    The more you interact with Pakistanis, the more its clear, why Pakistan is in such a mess and why chances of it developing into a civilized entity , are that much less.
    India has zero interest in Pakistan, as long as none of them spill over into India.
    One of the best ways is to have zero contact.
    You normally do not have grieviences against people, with whom you do not interact.
    Hopefully, by not interacting with Pakistan, they can be redirected towards the Arab states.

    Pakistan today, is far worse than it was in 1970-ties, 1980-ties and is getting worse.
    I don’t see how that can be disputed.

    The Pak army and ISI have a iron grip on that nation and the mullah power is increasing.
    Increasingly, Nawzz Sharif’s PML , looks like the public face of the Punjabi Taleban.

    Anyway, the bottomline is , India should seek to disassociate as much as it can with Pakistan.
    Zero contact with Pakistan, should be the goal.

    I hope Pakistan feels the same way about India, and keeps away. That would , it would make it easier to break diplomatics ties and cut-off all contact.

    Any contact with Pak, just as any contact with the neighbourhood failure, can only bring grief.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Generally we are also of similar views about Indians, atleast we are on the same page on something. I did not expect you to watch video’s on http://www.un.org/webcast. You guys run away from such debate, but you like blogs where you outnumber others in posting. As far as staying far far goes, every indian blog you go to, its is about Pakistan, whether it is culture, TV Programs, debates, politics, cricket, hockey or we are discussing Opra Winfrey. You people are so insure, that you have to bring and abuse Muslims and Pakistan, its your nature, not your fault Ragiv Baita. Lately you guys can’t even talk about Pigeons, without talking about lone pegeon we sent across the border.

    Ragiv next time you see a pigeon, please don’t shoot it might be your fellow Indian Muslim, Sikh, God forsaken Dalit, Christian or a Maoist.

    [Reply]

    harish advani Reply:

    Azar,
    You need ti improve your English diction and spelling before making a comment.By the wa I fully agree with Rajiv and the comments made by him.Also you mean Rajiv beta what is baita?
    Lastly I must say you sound very ignorant and ill informed.Semi literate are we?!

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    No one says India has solved all its problems.
    Its democratic set-up has seen the country develope and lot more needs to be done.

    The country has maintained its territorial integrity, ( has not lost 1/2 the country and is not ruled by criminal intelligence services and army and whose civilian government begs around for money ! ) religious diversity.

    Yes India still has lot many poor and the % of people in poverty have been coming down.

    Yes India has a economy/GDP 10 times that of Pakistan and getting even bigger !

    Yes , India’s per capita income is now more than that of Pakistan.

    Yes, Pakistan is no match for India in education, industry, science and entertainment.

    Now what about Pakistan ?

    Any answers ?

    Curiously, I have heard no defense of Pakistan, while I have answered points raised.

    Oh you have the Islamic bomb !
    Just make sure that the bomb does not ultimately spell your own doom, just as Pk terrorists are doing for Pak now.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Many of ur figures are wrong as usual…

    1) 22.6% of Pak liver under 1$ in day while in India, it is 42.2% (dobule of Pak)..This shows every things….

    2) Roughly 17% of Pak live below poverty line as of 2008 while in India, it is more than 30% (Though there are different figures available…some suggest it is more than 40%.. and some says it is 27%).

    Above 2 figures tells everything…and these figures are confirmed..anyhow lets go further..

    3) India’s GDP is nealry 9 times of Pak…Dont get panic…The reason is India’s population which is 10 times of Pak…For that matter, we will take Per Capita Income…Go further down

    4) Pak Per Capita Income = 1017 US $ while India = 1031 US$ (Reference for both is IMF 2009)…Dont get Panic…Lets analyze it…….India got more than 54 Billionarie US $…So just take out these 54 billionarie US $ out of 1.20 billion people of India and then calculate the Per Capita Income..Sorry to say..it is less than 900 now….It also shows how poor real india is where wealth of just 54 people increase the average PCI more than 10 times…Pak Dont have any billionarie in Us $..So relative to India, equality of income (and wealth) of is PAk is better than India…

    5) Pak is a country which is nealry 10 times smaller than India in terms of population (in area, it is nealry 1/3) so the obivously the size of the Indian’s industry will be many times more than that of Pak….then who is better or who is more worse, you have to go back and consider the first 2 points…which is % of poors….

    Due to size of India, India’s GDP is 4th place of world in terms of Purchasing power..Does it mean…India is the 4th richest Country…Nope……

    Beta ji..% of poors tells every things….

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Are those **** statistics.

    India’s population is not 10 times Pak !!!!

    Pak’s population is 180 million, Indians 1.1 billion. Do the math !!

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    —————————————————————
    Question : What’s the Pakistani objective
    —————————————————————-
    To Pakistanis who insist on coming to this forum , I have a few questions.

    The choice is your, you can answer them or flee .

    Beginning the with Kashmir war, in 48-49, Pakistan has been trying to win territory or Kashmir.

    It has lost many wars, lost 1/2 its country, being reduced to a pauper state, but still does not give up.
    The Pakistani state still arms terrorists of Lashker-e-toiba , sends criminals like Kasav, protects criminals like
    Saeed Hafiz etc.

    My question is, whats the game plan ? What’s the Pak Vision ?

    1948-49 : Kashmir signs accession to India , after Pakistan invades Kashmir.
    Kashmir may have joined Pakistan but the invasion and brutality that the Pak invaders brought helps Kashmir in Indian lap.
    Indian forces repell the invaders from Jammu and Kashmir.
    The kingdom, consisted of 5 provinces of Jammu, Kashmir, Gilgit, Baltistan, Leh-Ladhakh.
    When cease fire is called, India keeps Jammu, 90% of Kashmir, leh, ladhakh.
    Pakistan keeps Gilgit , Baltistan and 6-7% of Kashmir province ( Muzaffarabad area ).

    India claims China has occupied part of Ladhakh, China claims India has occupied a whole Chinese province , called Arunachal Pradesh in India. However, both are content to talk about it while trade flourishes between them. China is India’s biggest trade partner now.

    India has since not initiated war with Pakistan to capture PoK. Kashmiris themselves do not consider Gilgit and Baltistan, part of Kashmir. India is happy with the status quo. Pak is not.

    However Pakistan has been trying, unsuccessfully to get Indian Kashmir, with disastorous consequences to itself, both in terms of territory lost and damage caused to its politics and state.
    In fact, quiet literally, everytime it has initiated war, it has lost even more !

    1965 Pak initiated war into J&K : At the end of the war..
    (wikipedia)
    ” The Indian army suffered 3,000 battlefield deaths, while Pakistan suffered 3,800.
    The Indian army was in possession of 710 mile² (1,840 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (545 km²) of Indian territory.
    The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors,[16] while Pakistani land gains were primarily south in deserts opposite to Sindh and in Chumb sector near Kashmir in north.[17] ”

    India could have kept the territory 710 Vs 210 sq mile , was a good deal for India. But India returned all Pak territory .

    1971 Pakistan civil war, spills over into India. Pakstani army genocide in east Pakistan causes 10 million refugees in India.
    Thats more than the entire population of Jammu and Kashmir !
    India moves to aid the poor , destitute and provides aid to Mukti Bahini to resist Pak genocide.

    Pakistan attacks India in the West ! In fact the Pak dictator and idiot goes on Pak national TV to declare they have attacked India !
    Pakistan declares , “defense of east, lies in the West” , so they have attacked India !
    As per wikipedia
    “On the evening of 3 December at about 5:40 PM,[24] the Pakistani air force launched a pre-emptive strike on eleven airfields in north-western India, including Agra which was 300 miles (480 km) from the border”

    Final Result :
    1/2 of Pakistan lost.
    As per wikipedia, after Pakistan lost , India
    ” released more than 90,000 Pakistani PoWs in five months[63].
    Further, as a gesture of goodwill, nearly 200 soldiers who were sought for war crimes by Bengalis were also pardoned by India.

    The accord also gave back more than 13,000 km² of land that Indian troops had seized in West Pakistan during the war, though India retained a few strategic areas[64]; most notably Kargil”

    So India did not take any territory of East Pakistan.
    India, returned 90,0000 plus Pak surrenderees or PoW after taking good care of them as per Geneva conventions !
    India even returned 13,000 sq km of West Pakistan.
    Astounding genorosity to a vicious, perfidious entity !!
    Think about it .

    India kept Kargil, hoping Pak would learn some lessons that it should avoid conflict with India after losing eastern 1/2 and Kargil.
    But idiots don’t learn a lesson ! Is that a national IQ issue ?

    1985 Siachen
    Line of Control, ended at the foot of the glacier. Rest of it was unmarked , no mans land. Pakistan started mountain expeditions on the glaciar, claiming it part of Pak controlled territory. India made diplomatic protest. Pak claimed the glacier was its ! India moves in to assert its control.
    Pak loses again. Siachen firmly under Indian control.
    No lesson learnt again !

    1999 World conquerer, latest Pak miracle, dictator Musharraf sends Pak army to occupy Kargil in winter. When India detects the invasion, India fights back.

    Result : Pak flees. Loses peaks where it was dug in and on much higher ground.
    Yes India has taken a few more peaks than it controlled before the Kargil war, as a token fine on the Pak army.
    Has Pak army told you that ? I guess not.

    I just don’t understand, how a Islamic superpower, keeps losing to a country with 20-30% of world’s poor , 27 insurgencies, maoists etc!
    How much more humilating can it be ?

    But has Pak learnt any lessons, in its conflicts with India ?

    Does Pak understand that each time it fights India, it loses more ?

    Does Pak understand that the Jihadi machinery , its glorious army had built, now controls large parts of Pak and is challenging Pak on its own territory ?
    Does Pak understand that a 1000 Kasavs and such terrorists, that it continues to train can only bring more grief, more shame and more losses ?

    So whats the Pak game plan ? I need some answers here.

    See, if you maintain zero contact with ‘vicious India’ , you wont lose any more territory and not lose any more wars ! The list of losses shall stop.
    So zero contact with India , is in your favour ! Stay away , it will do you a world of good.

    ———————————————————————————————————-
    Moral of the story : If you stop fighting India, you will stop losing. Guaranteed !!!!!!!
    ————————————————————————————————————

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Rajiv ji
    You have indeed cited a complete encyclopedia of Indo-Pak relations and consequences the events had on the failed state across the border. It seems that with few exceptions, the Pakistani people have been completely brainwashed by thier madrassah education. Given the mindset of the majority of the people of Pakistan, as evident from the response from across the border on this blog, I wonder is it worthwhile for the author of this blog to be always favouring an Indo-Pak dialogue and in the process ignoring the vicious and poisnous rhetoric of their people?
    BNA

    [Reply]

    vinod sharma Reply:

    @BNA
    Pl leave the decision to whether or not continue this blog to me dear.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    O.K. Sharma Saheb. It was said in a lighter vein.
    Regards
    BNA

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Dr. B.N Anand its a two way traffic, till now I thaught poor patel, singh and Kuman on the streets had this type of opnion. Being a Dr. attached to your name, would indicate little more knowledge and thaughtfulness in your reply. Its not the mederasas which invoke such response its you people simple hatred.

    And Sal keep up the good response and as usually Rajiv being a typical indian not answer the questions or points raised, but will rant away in other direction. But once in a while, we have to get hold of his ears and bring back to the discussion at hand.

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Azhar Hussein Saheb
    May I assure you that there is absolutely no hatred for the people of Pakistan in this country. The debate is simply on the religious aspect. But I hope you will also agree that the Talibans have hijacked the Muslim religion as per their dictats. It is often said that Islam always teaches compassion and tolerance. As a result the people of Pakistan do not want to accept that the terorists are Muslims. But I hope you will also understand that whenever any terrorist is caught any where in the world, his origin is loccated from Pakistan. Why is it so? I also believe that all the Muslims are not terrorists, but the one who are caught happen to be Muslims. It is indeed very confusing to everyone.
    Every religion has its own tenets and is personal. We must respect each other’s religion and should not speak in a way to hurt the religious sentiments of any one. It is a fact that ours is multi-religion ,multi-cultural and multi language society which is unlike Pakistan. While Pakistan has one religion and Urdu is a commonn language. That is not true in our country.You travel 10 miles in our country and you find different people with different language, differently dressed with different eating habits and may be even speaking different language. If I travel deep in south of the country, I may become a stranager in my own country and same will be true when a soth indian comes to North. I shall be completyely lost because the road signs will be in a different language and I shall be able to communicate only in English. If we travel in North-east, people look totally different. The muslims living in south of the country would have nothing in common with muslims of Pakistan except the religion. They would look like any other local south indian as they would speak in the local state language. So, is n’t it a wonder that in spite of so much diversity, we have survived as a united country. While religion alone could not keep Bengali speaking people to be part of original Pakistan.
    We have to be pragmatic. Let the world judge about both of us in terms of our economic progress and prosperity. There is no use of blowing our own trumpets at each other to score a point. At least I do not believe in this way of life. We shall wish you to live happily in your country and the same should be true from your side. Let us concentrate on our problems and there is no use being sadistic either way.
    I have put everything in a very simple language and hope I have not hurt your feelings in any way.
    Regartds
    BNA

  • http://www.tanzeel.wordpress.com Tanzeel

    I have covered this story in my blog with another perspective. Please read and comment. Its about the support Taliban got in return of killing Qadianis.

    ————————————————————————————-
    http://tanzeel.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/taliban-stir-muted-sympathy/

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Dr Anand and Mr Sharma

    Well certainly the blog is useful, because it lets different viewpoints to be aired and hopefully we all learn from it.

    Regarding dialogue with Pakistan, in current time, my objects are 2 fold.

    1. Are the parties that control Pakistan, desirous of peace and good relations with India ?

    If you assume, in wild optimism, contrary to all evidense , that they are, then the 2nd question is

    2. Is The Pakistani entity with which you engage in dialogue, can it deliver its part of the bargain ?

    If you go to a bank, the bank will do business with you, if the bank can ascertain that you are able to deliver, your part of the bargain.
    If the bank does business with you, without verifying your credit worthiness and past credit history, the bank will most likely lose.

    Not just Taskhent or Shimla accords, When AB Vajpayee, engaged in dialogue with the supreme leader of Pakistan at that time, ‘Moin e Amin’ Nawaz Sharif,
    Pak army under it’s hero and commando Musharraf was in the process of invading India in Kargil, surreptitiously at night, while peace talks were on !

    If Nawaz had so little power to deliver, what about Zardari and Gilani ??

    Here is a quote from todays dailytimes.com.pk, about Zardari’s helplessness against ISI and military intelligence.

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201064\story_4-6-2010_pg3_2

    “Consider further a report in a national daily of June 1, which quotes the president as having sent a strong message to the (intelligence) quarters
    concerned saying, “Confront (me) out in the open instead of picking on my friends.”
    The president was responding to the abduction of a friend by unknown men on the busiest road in the busiest city of this land.
    If true (and no denial has been issued), it beggars the imagination that such a challenge can issue from a supreme commander to his own troops. ”

    The person abducted, was a close friend of Zardari and one of top Pak businessman. ISI/pAK ARMY is the largest kidnapper in the world. I am not kidding.

    So what can Zardari-Gilani deliver ?
    Answer : Absolutely nothing.
    Under the current Pak internal dynamics , its against the economic and political interests of Pak army and ISI, to have peace with India.
    So why do we enter into end less charade of dialogue ?

    Remember the story of the bank. If it did business with a dishonest or un creditworthy entity, the bank would lose.

    So we should wait with patience. If Pakistan never changes or gets worse, that is not a situation we can help. Minimizing cointact will help in spill over effects.

    If Pakistan’s internal dynamics change for the better and its in cointrol of an entity that desires peace with India, we can have talks.

    Note : After 60 years of indictrination by its army-mullah combine, overwhelming number of Pakistanis will reject the notion that India and Pak are 2 countries “seperated at birth.”

    That would imply we share common heritage and ancestory. Its almost blasphemous in Pakistan to claim that.

    Pak has spent 60 years telling its people that they are descendents of the rampaging plunderers and invaders from the west, who brought enlightmenet to these dark lands.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Tanzeel,
    Yes I read it. Good effort.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Tanzeel,

    In the same context, here is a report by C.M NAIM. If you scroll down, you can see the massive sign board, in public view.

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265684

    The report also contained an image of the infamous signboard.

    To see the actual image of the massive sign borad, hanging in public, near Lahore, click on this

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265684

    Painted in gaudy colours and dominant in size, the sign first quoted three verses from the Quran in Urdu translation then urged people to follow their alleged message.

    The Quran’s Message to the Muslim Ummah

    “O believers, do not make friends of those who are my enemies and yours.” Chapter 60, verse 1.

    “And those who should demean your religion you should kill them, the leaders of Kufr.” Chapter 9, verse 12.

    “And fight with them, for Allah Ta’ala will punish them and demean them at your hands, and He will help you against them (Kafirs), and Allah will cool the breasts of the believers.” Chapter 9, verse 14 [2]

    Therefore we request you:

    “Keep yourself away from the Mirza’is and Qadianis, the worst branch of kufr and Islam’s worst enemies. And also keep your children away from them, because those who will maintain social ties with them will, on the Day of Judgment, find themselves denied any intercession on their behalf by the Prophet Muhammad.”

    Khatm-i-Nabuwat Youth Wing, Ferozewala [3]

    Judging from the image, the sign must have dominated the roundabout where it was set up to exhort the 97.21 percent of Ferozewala’s population against the unfortunate 0.25. It had stayed up for weeks. Thousands, including any number of men with power and authority, saw it but chose to do nothing. Finally a retired schoolteacher victimized by the sign and fearing worse approached the police for relief. A few days later, he ended up dead.

    ……………..

    [Reply]

    Tanzeel Reply:

    Dear Rajiv,

    thanks for the link. I will be glad if you tell this to my fellow Pakistanis on blog where they have been blaming me for making a mountain out of molehill…

    ———————————–
    http://www.tanzeel.wordpress.com

    ahmed41 Reply:

    Dear Mr. Vinood Sharma,
    The blog maintained by you is an excellent idea.
    Two nations born in 1947; but for the “partition” we would be fellow citizens of the people in Lahore.
    Its not possible to think of any thing except to dream that one day we should be like USA & Canada,
    like India & Nepal;———-
    ————like bread & butter ;
    —like Tom & Jerry—
    like Dean Martin & Jerry Louis

    —-ok,ok——like Laurel & Hardy—–

    What one means is, life is short,life is sweet,
    500 years from now , what Pakistan and what Bharat will there be ?

    The people who comment on this blog seem to be tight and very serious.
    Why so.
    Do not take life,religion,politics and all that divides us into ” we vs Them, very seriously.

    Look back and laugh, Laugh at Zia ul-Haq’s moustash. at Morarji’s drinking habits.

    They are all gone.

    Look instead at all that is common between the two nations.

    If one wants to hate the “OTHER” why use Vinood Sharma’s blog.

    Just start a fight and undo whatever little we have gained in 60+ years.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Mr Sharma,

    Blog suggestion :
    —————————-
    I am sure, you must have seen news reports on the independent survey / opinion poll of entire J&K .

    The results are not much different from surveys done previously by various independent polls.

    Maybe you could discuss that in a new blog.
    Here is the link below.

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265666

    [Reply]

  • mayamani

    sal,the only reason there r no riots in pakistan are because hindus do not start them like muslims do in india all the time…due to processions near amosque
    just because media hides that u dont know……..in last few weeks there were riots in bareili,hyderabad and bareili……all started by muslims…and in we saw how hindus were cleansed in kashmir……and their population came down in bdesha n dpakistan and muslims have grown in india..that says it all…….just hiding and lieing and believing propagnada from motivated media willl ofcourse keep u ignorant about muslim misdeeds and yes hindus have been killing muslims in india and yet tehir population has grown and muslims are so subdued that they dare burn atrain and start riots over processions…but media will make u belive their propagnada by hiding facvts…..
    very clever……this is indian secularism and secular media..target hindus and hate ur own community…only secular hindus r treacherous enough to do this…..

    [Reply]

    [Reply]

  • http://www.disqus.com/schadha schadha

    That pakistan was born out of a divisive mentality of its leaders is undeniable , but the premise offered that post partition their leaders realised that they could not run a country on divisive policies c is ludicrous . A country which was born where the midwife was violence , hatred and separatism could never have succeded in its frivolous claims of being secular even if some of its leaders opined / wished otherwise .
    So pakistan|s history has been a natural progression to where it stands today —as the harbinger of violence , intolerant , openly nourishing terrorists groups. That more pakistanis have been involved in terror plotting all over the world bears testimony to this . This is not strange at all
    There was a report some days back in the pakistan newspapers — in connenction with the shazad terror case a pakistan major was arrested / detained . Same day there was a story in that paper about a noted pak scribe (HAMID MIR) who was suspected of having links with the taliban The cancer is not superficial as one would like to beleive but has spread to a strata of society which you would claim are immune to such extreme thoughts
    And why this should not be ?From inception pakistan has lauded sectarian thoughts — an islamic state founded and nurtured in divisness cannot do but this . Their education curriculm which was madrassa oriented day in and day out dished out extreme curriculm . When the new generation nurtured under this system in free pakistan came of age there was a surge of extreme thought. The govt even if it wished could not control this Frankstein monster which it had created Is it surprising therefore that even a” person like Bhutto for whom religious fanaticism was anathema had to bow to the zealots and ban and deprive the ahamadis of their basic rights.He could not have done otherwise if he had to survive politically
    The recent so called offensive against taliban is a eye wash by the military / isi in pakistan . It is only to garner more aid from usa —so pakistan when it wants kills or captures a few dispensable ones whilst nurturing safely the others So keep the usa on tenterhooks and keep them happy whilst asking for aid —-this is better strategy than the begging bowl
    Hence pakistan progression is towards talibanisation of its society as pakistan has been put on this path from its inception . Free speech , free thought, a spirit of tolerance ,for different views , thoughts , religions are all alien to the concepts which brought pak in existence — religious bigotry.
    It cannot be but otherwise
    My father ‘\s family was from lahore before partition —–out of seven brothers six came to india whilst one sarwan lal of miani village lahore could not come and remained there to look after his property
    six months later he had to adopt the name of ghulam rasool as he found his old name / religion / ancestry a ring around his neck for his future in that country Need more have to be said?

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    YaleGlobal Forums

    India: Hindu extremism causing concerns
    Posted: Dec 4, 2008 4:52 AM Reply

    Reports says Hindu extremists under the Hindutva banner have challenged Christians to convert to Hinduism if they want to return to their villages. Most of the churches, Christian homes and Christian villages in Kandhamal and 14 other district of Orissa are vandalized.

    Terming the torching of churches, raping of nuns and killings of innocent christians as a ‘cultural terrorism” unleashed by Hindu extremists, the Dal Khalsa held the Indian government responsible for miserably failing to protect the lives and properties of the minority community.

    In a hard hitting statement, the party vice-president Manmohan Singh Khalsa, general secretary Dr Manjinder Singh and political secretary Kanwarpal Singh urged the United Nations to intervene as despite the public outcry and recoomendations of National Commission for Minorities to ban Bajrang Dal, the approach of the Indian government has been totally biased.

    “Though the prime minister and the UPA chairperson belong to minority community, the response of the state machinery is being driven by prejudice”. As elections are drawing nearer, there were fears that violence against minorities would escalate, they observed. The connivance of the RSS and VHP was visible as their militant wing Bajrang Dal leader Mahendra Kumar supported and justified the attacks on churches.

    The worst anti-Christian violence in India since independence has reminded the horrors and agonies of Sikhs and Muslims who suffered the worst kind of genocides in 1984 and 2002 in the hands of Congress and the BJP respectively. The leaders condemned the attempts made by certain so-called Hindutva elements directing christian refugees not to return to their homes unless they converted to Hinduism.

    Urging the Amnesty International and the Asia Human Rights Watch to seek explanation from the Indian government for failing to curb the violations of the human rights, they said the silence of the international community especially the West was unfortunate and ridiculous.

    In India, an umbrella organization called the Sangh Parivar champions the concept of Hindutva. The sangh comprises organizations such as the RSS, Bharatiya Janata Party, Bajrang Dal, and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad.

    This ideology has existed since the early 20th century, forged by Veer Savarkar, but came to prominence in Indian politics in the late 1980s, when two events attracted a large number of mainstream Hindus to the movement. The first of these events was the Rajiv Gandhi government’s use of its large Parliamentary Majority to overturn a Supreme Court verdict granting alimony to an old woman that had angered many Muslims (see the Shah Bano case).

    The second was the dispute over the 16th century Mughal Babri Mosque in Ayodhya — built by Babur after his first major victory in India. The Supreme Court of India refused to take up the case in the early 1990s, leading to a huge outcry. Tempers soon flared, and a huge number of nationalist Hindus from all parts of India razed the mosque in late 1992, causing nationwide communal riots. The razing of the mosque and subsequent conflict arguably lifted the BJP and Hindutva to international prominence.

    “The expertise to read the signpost of the attack on secularism and democracy in India and monitor accordingly is the need of the hour,” said, Ms. Asma Jahangir, United Nations Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief at her concluding press conference after a three-week mission trip to find the religious intolerance in India early this year.

    The attack on Christians in India is crystal clear of attack on Indian secularism and democracy, wrote some editors in India. The concerns are rising that extremism is undermining Indian’s peace and it could descend in hell.
    Tribal Christians of the Dang district of Gujarat, Jhabua of Madhya Pradesh, and Kandhamal of Orissa are major victims of the organized attack by Hindutva forces.

    The episode of black Christmas in the Kandhamal district of Orissa in 2007 and the ongoing attack in different parts of the country are the latest signposts of the attack on Indian secularism and democracy. In black Christmas, the media reported nine Christians killed, over 90 churches and Christian institutions and over 700 Christian homes burnt and over 7000 lives affected. The economic system of tribal Christians was destroyed to ashes.

    The ongoing and uncontrolled communal violence on Christians has left over 30 deaths, over 100 churches, 300 Christian villages, 4000 Christian homes burnt down and 50000 Dalit Christians made refugees in forest.

    [Reply]

    Abhijit Reply:

    Dude,
    I have on statement for you, the above acts, though not all are true, are barbaric and need to be condemned, but india has a large minority, please tell me what minority does pakistan have and what gives it enough credentials to talk about minority rights in other countries?
    Abhijit

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Azhar Hussainji… I think u have been brainwashed ! :) :)

    Did you use Tide or SUrf on your brains…. Ha aha :)

    Or is it the old Madrassa education and the Pakistani curriculam which makes you think like this ????

    Chill out man.

    Buy a beer today. Then remember that why Pakistanis abraod are now pretending to be Indians so that they do not get bashed up!

    You can throw out so much propoganda from both ends… yet cannot deny that your country is among the poorest and most fanatic nations of the world.

    let Allah and Bhagwan make the poor fundamantalist Pakistanis see reason….

    I would ask Jesus, Allah and Ram to make our confused neighbours become human instead of terrorists….

    And as I rise my glass of beer tonight,,,, I would say Cheers… Maybe things will change tomorrow.

    But will they?

    :) :)

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Oh poor baby gave the answer just I was looking, in the mirror you see a ugly face and dont want to discuss it. Now as always coward is deviating from the subjuct. We have the guts to face the facts, and the facts are that yes there is extremism in our society and yes we are willing to hit it head on. No go drink the beer and forget that same problems that exist in Pakistan are not in India. Thats what the beer is for, like we in America say, “after 2 am everone is beautiful”, maybe you have been looking in the mirrror late nite.

    [Reply]

    vijay kumar Reply:

    Azhar Ji…

    Confront the facts… And don’t get confused by your own rhetoric….

    An indian kid wants to become a computer nerd today. A brainwashed poor Pakistani is asked to become a terrorist so that he can blow himself and reach jannat…how sad….

    Our nation is proud of its IT industry ( Information technology, if you did’nt get it)

    Pakistan is proud and famous for its IT industry. .. ( International terrorism you see) :)

    A Pakistani child looks at Dawood Ibrahim, Hafeez Saeed, Lakhvi, Kasab as its heroes…:)

    Indians look at Bill Gates, Narayanmurthy, Azim Premji, Ar Rehman…..

    Can you spot the difference.

    You probably won’t.

    You see education makes all the difference.

    Cheers !

  • Rajiv

    ————————————————————————————
    A simple litmus test….
    ————————————————————————————

    There is a simple, yet very accurate litmus test, about how tolerant and pluralistic a society is.

    If the population of minorities is staying stable or increasing, you can safely conclude that the
    minorities are safe in that state.

    No one wants to live in a state where his life and property are not safe. I would not live in USA, if my life and property was not safe. The fact that % of minority population is increasing here is a testimony to the fact that the state and society here is tolerant.
    Same for India.

    Everywhere in the world, where any minority is ill treated, suppressed by the state , there percentage of the populatipon goes dowm. The minorities, simply move away to places where there life and property are secure.

    1. Hitlers Germany, Jews moved away
    2. Tibet, Tibettans moved away, Han Chinese increased in % of Tibet population
    3. Pakistan, Hindus fled or converted to protect there lives and property at a unprecedented rate.
    I must add, even Aurangzeb’s brutalities ( Bye the way, Aurangzeb is regardded as a Hero in Pak history ! ) did not force Hindus living in territories of Punjab for thousands of years to flee.
    But Jinnah’s religion based politics succeeded , where Aurangzeb failed..
    4. Indian Kashmir, Hindus moved away and in just 10 years beginning 1986, the population of Hindus in the valley, came down from more than 10-15% to less than 1 %.
    They moved to JAMMU or elsewhere in India.
    5. SriLanka, % population of Hindu Tamils has decreased

    In fact, the reduction of minorities in Pakistan, is almost at a rate unmatched in history, with few parallels.

    No Pakistani, should ever dare to compare, India and Pakistan’s treatment of minorities.
    If minorities in India were not safe, they would have moved away, just as minorities in Pakistan, Afganistan did. In fact the opposite has happened in India. The minority population has increased, as a % of the population.

    to Indian states tolerance and protection of its minorities. Its not a favour that India does but its a matter of pride that the state seeks to provide equal protection to all its citizens.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    That is exactly why almost 100,000 Indian Muslims living illegally in Karachi alone, read my lips 100,000 and this does not incude Muslims from Burma and Sri Lanka. As far as Hindus go, they left just as millions of Muslims left India. You cannot give me a single example where there was mass murder of Hindus in Pakistan, but I can send you video clips which will a nromal human to shame, that is if someone is free of shame.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Azhar,

    Why did Hindus leave in masses from Pakistan , while Muslims in India did not. Why is the % of Muslims in Indian territories , same as in 1947, while Pakistan has expelled virtually all minorities. Hindus and Sikhs just did not leave in 1947, they kept leaving Pakistan as the state became a venal entity against minorities.

    Why ?? Why would people who had lived there for thousands of years , leave there own land ?
    They lost property and lives everything. They left to save there lives.

    In fact the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Hindus, Sikhs and now Ahmedias is complete in Pakistan.

    Yes, many Muslims left for Pakistan during partition but not since. While minorities continue to flee Pakistan in past 60 years of its history, in India after 1947 migration, they stayed in India. No one leaves his ancestral lands voluntarily unless the state and society force him to do so.

    Its because in India the state guaranteed protection and equal opportunity. In Pakistan, the emphasis on Islam disenfranchised non Muslims. If Muslims were treated in India as Hindus were, the Muslims too would have left.

    Pakistan would easily be the worst state in the world in treatment of minorities. The numbers tell everything.

    The reason , why you see sometimes riots happen in Indias is bacause there is a very significant number of minority community and miscreants in both communities sometimes cause riots. Even in Gujrat riots, there were victimes from both communities, about 900 from Muslim and 300-400 from Hindus. About 200 policemen died trying to protect innocents from rioting Hindus and Muslims.

    In Kashmir, the overwhelming number of victims are Hindus. The number of Muslims who have left because of Kashmir violence is about 50 to 100 thousand. The number of Hindus who have been killed or left the Kashmir Valley as refugees to different parts of India is more than 500,000!

    The reason there are no mass riots in Pakistan , but just targetted killings in cold blood, isbecause you have killed or expelled almost all the Hindus and Sikhs. There is no one left toi fight back Islamic violence.
    If Muslims were 1% of Indian population and spread thinly all accros the land, we too would have no riots.

    So dare not compare India with Pakistan. Here the law and constitution guarantees equality.
    In Pakistan, the law and the constitution, spearhead minority discrimination and repression.

    Shoud I list the constitutionalized discrimination that Islamic Republic of Pakistan has put on minorities ??

    1. Non Muslims ( Hindus, Sikhs etc are ineligible for PM, President ! ). Even after expelling all, you still had to make a law to make them ineligible.

    2. Ahmedias , cannot convert others to their religion.
    3. Ahmedias cannot propogate there religion or publish religious material.

    I could go on and on.

    Very few countries in the world have legalized discrimination and maltreatment of minorities. Pakstan is one of them.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Let us analyse Jinnah dispassionately.

    One of the strange things we are told is that Jinnah would not have asked for Pakistan, had he become the president of the COngress in the thirties.

    Which means….

    That he was willing to split a country to attain power.

    We really have to see him in that light.

    Of course, Pakistan has been a failure as a nation and a disaster for humanity. It now possess nuclear weapons and chances are that as it goes down the tubes, it would be willing to blow up the world alongside. The terrorists would just conclude that they have achieved jannat…

    We now have to work together– we meaning all the nations of the world — to either reform this evil entity or dismantle it.

    The reasonable people of Pakistan should question fatwas and texts written in another age. There is no point in insulting one religion againstt another. But then words written centureis ago cannot ever be final.

    Maybe gender equality, freedom for minorities, making Pakistan secular like India, closing down its education system and sending NCERT books to its school students can change Pakistan.

    Otherwise it is bound to create a jahannum for the entire world

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Another self serving comments about Pakistan, keep it up.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Experts focus on plight of Dalits and christian minorities

    Increasing attacks on them create atmosphere of insecurity

    The atmosphere of insecurity for Dalits and minorities in Rajasthan as a result of increasing attacks on them and the State-backed discrimination pushing these sections to the margins of civil society was the focus of deliberations during a conference on social conflicts which ended here on Monday.

    Speakers at the three-day meeting, organised by the Centre for Dalit Rights (CDR) and five associated organisations, said the communal and caste riots witnessed with regularity in the State formed part of a conspiracy to stifle the voice of weaker sections and cripple them on the social and economic fronts.

    The theme of the conference, “Social conflicts and efforts for peace in Rajasthan”, led the participants to discuss the issues such as violence perpetrated against Christians,branding minorities as anti-nationals, and regular victimisation of Dalits in community life and denial of equal rights to them.

    CDR chairman P.L. Mimroth said the difficult topography, complex social structure, feudalism and social conflicts were interrelated in Rajasthan, where caste-based discrimination was always justified by higher castes. He said communalism was another dimension of feudal society of the State which wanted to subjugate all non-Hindus.

    R.K. Akodia, former Member of the State Human Rights Commission, said Dalits were often used as tools against minorities during communal violence and no serious attempt was made for their social, political or economic empowerment.

    People’s Union for Civil Liberties general secretary Kavita Srivastava pointed out that communal and anti-social elements indulging in violence against Dalits and minorities had the tacit support of the Bharatiya Janata Party-led Government committed to the ideology of RSS.

    G.L. Deora, former Vice-Chancellor of Kota Open University, said the social conflicts were the result of wrongful attitude of higher castes desiring no change in the status quo, that had led to discrimination against Dalits for several centuries.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Excellent analysis by Istiaq Ahmed, a scholar of Pak origin
    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201068\story_8-6-2010_pg3_2

    The Muslim League’s propaganda struck terror in the hearts of the Hindus and Sikhs who were told that they would be paying jazya and Islamic law will prevail in all sectors of individual and collective life. The minority Shia and Ahmediyya communities were also fearful that it would result in Sunni domination

    The recent attack on a congregation of Ahmedis during prayers, which claimed more than 90 innocent lives, has revived a discussion as to whether there is a connection between the creation of Pakistan and Islam. Within the Muslim League there was always a constituency in favour of Pakistan becoming an Islamic state. One of its proponents was a close confident of Jinnah: Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, a Shia. In 1939 he wrote to the historian Mohibul Hassan:

    “When we speak of democracy in Islam it is not democracy in the government but in the cultural and social aspects of life. Islam is totalitarian — there is no denying about it. It is the Quran that we should turn to. It is the dictatorship of the Quranic laws that we want — and that we will have — but not through non-violence and Gandhian truth” (Mushirul Hasan, 1997: 57-8).

    If the March 23, 1940, Lahore Resolution be taken as the start of the Pakistan campaign, then Jinnah had to make a breakthrough in the Muslim-majority provinces of northwestern India — Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Punjab and Sindh — each of which had regional parties headed by Muslims. The Muslim League had to convince the Muslim voters in these provinces that their leaders were courting Hindus and Sikhs and thus were paving the way for Hindu Raj under the Indian National Congress. That opportunity arrived in July 1945 when the British government announced provincial elections for February 1946. Punjab Governor Sir Bertrand Glancy has recorded in several secret fortnightly reports (FR) the tactics that the Muslim League adopted during the long election campaign. In the FR of December 27, 1945, Glancy noted:

    “Among Muslims the Leaguers are increasing their efforts to appeal to the bigotry of the electors. Pirs and maulvis have been enlisted in large numbers to tour the province and denounce all who oppose the League as infidels. Copies of the Holy Quran are carried around as an emblem peculiar to the Muslim League. Feroz [Khan Noon] and others openly preach that every vote given to the League is a vote cast in favour of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). These deplorable tactics, as I have frequently said, were only to be expected; they provide a grim augury of the future peace of India and they are certainly not easy for the Unionists to counter” (Lionel Carter, 2006: 160).

    In the FR of February 2, 1946, Glancy wrote:

    “The ML [Muslim League] orators are becoming increasingly fanatical in their speeches. Maulvis and pirs and students travel all round the province and preach that those who fail to vote for the League candidates will cease to be Muslims; their marriages will no longer be valid and they will be entirely excommunicated…It is not easy to foresee what the results of the elections will be. But there seems little doubt the Muslim League, thanks to the ruthless methods by which they have pursued their campaign of ‘Islam in danger’, will considerably increase the number of their seats and Unionist representatives will correspondingly decline” (Carter, 2006: 171).

    Similar tactics were adopted in the campaigns in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Sindh. In his doctoral dissertation, India, Pakistan or Pakhtunistan?, Erland Jansson writes:

    “The pir of Manki Sharif…founded an organisation of his own, the Anjuman-us-asfia. The organisation promised to support the Muslim League on the condition that Shariat would be enforced in Pakistan. To this Jinnah agreed. As a result the pir of Manki Sharif declared jihad to achieve Pakistan and ordered the members of his anjuman to support the League in the 1946 elections” (pg 166).

    Jinnah wrote in November 1945 a letter to Pir Manki Sharif in which he promised that the Shariat would apply to the affairs of the Muslim majority. He wrote:

    “It is needless to emphasise that the Constituent Assembly, which would be predominantly Muslim in its composition, would be able to enact laws for Muslims, not inconsistent with the Shariat laws and the Muslims will no longer be obliged to abide by the un-Islamic laws” (Constituent Assembly of Pakistan Debates, Volume 5, 1949, pg 46).

    The Muslim League’s propaganda struck terror in the hearts of the Hindus and Sikhs who were told that they would be paying jazya and Islamic law will prevail in all sectors of individual and collective life. The minority Shia and Ahmediyya communities were also fearful that it would result in Sunni domination. This is obvious from the correspondence between the Shia leader Syed Ali Zaheer and Jinnah in July 1944 (G Allana, 1977: 375-9). Although the Council of Action of the All-Parties Shia Conference passed a resolution on December 25, 1945, rejecting the idea of Pakistan (SR Bakshi, 1997: 848-9), most Shias shifted their loyalty to the Muslim League in the hope that Pakistan will be a non-sectarian state. Initially the Ahmediyya were also wary and reluctant to support the demand for a separate Muslim state (Munir Report, 1954: 196). It is only when Sir Zafarullah was won over by Jinnah that the Ahmedis started supporting the demand for Pakistan. To all such groups Jinnah gave assurances that Pakistan will not be a sectarian state.

    In my forthcoming book on the partition of Punjab, now running into more than 1,000 pages but which is at last completed and for which I am now looking for a publisher, I will shed light on how the fierce Islamist propaganda impacted on the partition of Punjab. The Sikhs had more fears than anyone else about what could happen to minorities in Pakistan. In a meeting in May 1947 sponsored by Lord Mountbatten to help the Muslims and Sikhs reach an agreement on keeping Punjab united, Jinnah offered the Sikhs all the safeguards they wanted if they agreed to support Pakistan. Only in March 1947 some 2,000-10,000 Sikhs — depending on who you cite — were butchered in the Rawalpindi rural areas so the Sikhs were very wary of Jinnah’s overtures. Chief Minister of Patiala Hardit Singh Malik writes he had an inspiration and asked Jinnah: “Sir you are making all the promises but God forbid if something happens to you, what will happen then?” The exact words Jinnah used in reply will be revealed in my forthcoming book, but the reasoning was that his followers will treat his words as sacred.

    Ishtiaq Ahmed is a Visiting Research Professor at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS) and the South Asian Studies Programme at the National University of Singapore and Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is currently working on a book, Is Pakistan a Garrison State? He can be reached at isasia@nus.edu.sg

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Dear Azhar ji,

    You are trying to allude to India, whatever Pakistan is known for ! How sad….

    We have a minorites commission and now even reservation for minorities.

    As far as Dalits are concerned we have job and education reservations. The caste system was a bad thing and Hindus are trying to eliminate it. In another 10-15 years it would disapear. Though some selfish politicains like Mayawati and Mulayam Singh may try to prolong it for political reasons. In India’s southern states caste equality has more or less been achieved.

    But Pakistan …. Oh dear me… it is sliding back to the seventh sixth and fifth century B.C

    You are now producing suicide bombers en mass; you are proud of the Burqa and trying to cover your women. Imagine one half of Pakistan– its women– are its lower castes. They can be married fourth, fifth or sixth time; divorced without alimony, everything. So half of Pakistan is Dalit.

    Its minorites are killed or converted. To be a shia in Pakistan or a sikh, Hindu or Christian is a curse. IF you are a Qadiani… God help you.

    Can we call this hell hole a P A K istan or a NARK-istan??

    Azhar ji you can change all this. You should study the Indian example of secular democracy and try to implement it in your country.

    Its morning here in India. I raise my cup of coffee prying to Allah, Jesus and Ram, that our neighbour becomes less venal, less evil and more like india and the sublime gentle humanity loving world….

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    What your secular democracry was doing when thousands of muslims were getting killed in Gujrat riots, Babri mosque and then Bombay riots..What your seculary democracy was doing when thousands of muslims getting killed in Kashmir…Leave muslims..Wat your secular democracy was doing when nuns were getting raped in Orissa and Chruches were getting burnt…Leave Christians…What was your secular democracy was doing when thousands of Sikhs were getting killed in 1984 in Delhi and in Golden Temple..

    Muslims and dalits are citizens of India then Y they need reservations…They need reservations cos you dont treat them equally…When muslims are 17% of India but in your civil services, they are 5% and in your armed forces….Sorry to say it is less than 3%..This is Y u need reservations…

    Well…You made me laugh..Caste systems has been in India from thousands of years and will reamin for a very long period of time and it is not going to end…

    You have ever heard in Pakistan where nuns get raped or chuches or temple get burnt or a mob of Sunni came and raped shia’s women, killed Shia men and burnt thier houses..Nope….In Pak, Shia get killed by bullets but unlike India, Riots doesnt occur in Pak.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    ———————————————
    The himalayan difference
    ———————————————

    In India, the state makes laws to promote the backwards and minorities

    1. There has been massive reservations for backward castes to give them preferences

    2. Some states have been giving reservations to Muslims too.

    Riots are aberrations , in which both communities have suffered. Not only Hindus or Muslims.
    If Muslims and so called backward castes have poor representation, they have been historically backward and the state is trying to reform it , through progressive laws.

    Thats India.

    In Pakistan
    ————————

    Its the state that makes discriminatory laws.

    1. Do you have reservations in Pakistan for backward, uneducated Muslims ?
    2. Instead of reservations, you have institutionalized discrimination against minorities by making laws like

    1.Hindus, Sikhs , Ahmedias etc cannot be PM or President of Pakistan
    2. Ahmedias cannot preach there religion
    etc

    Thats the Himalayan difference.
    If you want to educate yourself, read Pak historiam Isrtiaq Ahmed, I have quoted above.
    Even Jinnah, followed the most communal politics and Taleban are his worthy successors.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    For riots, you need two warring factions.

    When there is only one party performing crimes and killing minorities , there are NO RIOTS, only genocide. Once you have virtually killed all, then you start fighting among yourself. Ask Pak army how many muslims it has killed in Waziristan, swat etc.

    There were no riots in Germany, as jews were eliminated, neither are there any riots in Pakistan as Hindus and Sikhs were eliminated and now Ahmedias are.
    You only have genocide.

    Bye the way, read Pak historian, Istiaq Ahmed to educate yourself about the ethics of the state of Pakistan.
    Its worse than I thought.

    You just need minimal IQ to understand that.

    Sal Reply:

    Yes..there are reservations in every sector of civil service in terms of Minorities and ethinics basis…..Even…there are reserved seats in Pak Parliment, Bearucracy, Ministries etc….Similary…there are reserved seats available in Pak armed forces for minorities and ethinic basis….

    No genocide has ever occured in Pak…Dont talk abt Ahmeadis….They are just non muslims by Constitution and like non mulims…they have reservations…Only muslim (Shia or sunny) can be head of a Govt as Majority of Pak is muslims (98%)……

    Look at your pathetic reasoning…..then Y riots had occured occur against Christians in India…because christians are very small minority in India and according to your logic, christians could not pose any threat to Hindus….Evry riots that occur in India, Hindus are one sect and the other sect is minority (Muslims/Christians/Sikhs) and when You dont find any minority then You start killing dalits…

    I dont know who is Ishtiaq Ahmed but I know Arundhati roy very well

  • Azhar Hussain

    Vijay non of my fellow country are in self-denial that terrible things have and are happening in Pakistan. There is no boubt in our minds that we have to undo what our useless leaders have done. Having said the only reason why I am trying to show you the mriror, you face is just as ugly if not uglier. But the difference is that you don’t talk about but LOVE to to point others faults. And also losts of foreign agencies are gleefully playing theri role, trying to create mayhem but we as people inshallah will come out of this.

    While you are having your cup of tea, watch out for the pigeons flying over head, they might be flying across the border.

    http://www.cricketrevolution.com
    http://www.pac.org.pk/

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Arundhati RoyPosted: December 12, 2008 03:39 PM BIO Become a Fan Get Email Alerts Bloggers’ Index

    We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching “India’s 9/11.” And like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we’re expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it’s all been said and done before.

    As tension in the region builds, U.S. Senator John McCain has warned Pakistan that, if it didn’t act fast to arrest the “bad guys,” he had personal information that India would launch air strikes on “terrorist camps” in Pakistan and that Washington could do nothing because Mumbai was India’s 9/11.

    But November isn’t September, 2008 isn’t 2001, Pakistan isn’t Afghanistan, and India isn’t America. So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions.

    It’s odd how, in the last week of November, thousands of people in Kashmir supervised by thousands of Indian troops lined up to cast their vote, while the richest quarters of India’s richest city ended up looking like war-torn Kupwara — one of Kashmir’s most ravaged districts.

    The Mumbai attacks are only the most recent of a spate of terrorist attacks on Indian towns and cities this year. Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Delhi, Guwahati, Jaipur, and Malegaon have all seen serial bomb blasts in which hundreds of ordinary people have been killed and wounded. If the police are right about the people they have arrested as suspects, both Hindu and Muslim, all are Indian nationals, which obviously indicates that something’s going very badly wrong in this country.

    If you were watching television you might not have heard that ordinary people, too, died in Mumbai. They were mowed down in a busy railway station and a public hospital. The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich. They killed both with equal cold-bloodedness.

    The Indian media, however, was transfixed by the rising tide of horror that breached the glittering barricades of “India shining” and spread its stench in the marbled lobbies and crystal ballrooms of two incredibly luxurious hotels and a small Jewish center.

    We’re told that one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That’s absolutely true. It’s an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day. On a day when the newspapers were full of moving obituaries by beautiful people about the hotel rooms they had stayed in, the gourmet restaurants they loved (ironically one was called Kandahar), and the staff who served them, a small box on the top left-hand corner in the inner pages of a national newspaper (sponsored by a pizza company, I think) said, “Hungry, kya?” (“Hungry eh?”). It, then, with the best of intentions I’m sure, informed its readers that, on the international hunger index, India ranked below Sudan and Somalia.

    But of course this isn’t that war. That one’s still being fought in the Dalit bastis (settlements) of our villages; on the banks of the Narmada and the Koel Karo rivers; in the rubber estate in Chengara; in the villages of Nandigram, Singur, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, Lalgarh in West Bengal; and the slums and shantytowns of our gigantic cities.

    That war isn’t on TV. Yet.

    So maybe, like everyone else, we should deal with the one that is.

    Terrorism and the Need for Context

    There is a fierce, unforgiving fault line that runs through the contemporary discourse on terrorism. On one side (let’s call it Side A) are those who see terrorism, especially “Islamist” terrorism, as a hateful, insane scourge that spins on its own axis, in its own orbit, and has nothing to do with the world around it, nothing to do with history, geography, or economics. Therefore, Side A says, to try to place it in a political context, or even to try to understand it, amounts to justifying it and is a crime in itself.

    Side B believes that, though nothing can ever excuse or justify it, terrorism exists in a particular time, place, and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm’s way. Which is a crime in itself.

    The sayings of Hafiz Saeed who founded the Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) in 1990 and who belongs to the hard-line Salafi tradition of Islam, certainly bolsters the case of Side A. Hafiz Saeed approves of suicide bombing, hates Jews, Shias, and Democracy, and believes that jihad should be waged until Islam, his Islam, rules the world.

    Among the things he said are:

    “There cannot be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy.”

    And: “India has shown us this path. We would like to give India a ***-for-tat response and reciprocate in the same way by killing the Hindus, just like it is killing the Muslims in Kashmir.”

    But where would Side A accommodate the sayings of Babu Bajrangi of Ahmedabad, India, who sees himself as a democrat, not a terrorist? He was one of the major lynchpins of the 2002 Gujarat genocide and has said (on camera):

    “We didn’t spare a single Muslim shop, we set everything on fire… we hacked, burned, set on fire… we believe in setting them on fire because these ******** don’t want to be cremated, they’re afraid of it… I have just one last wish… let me be sentenced to death… I don’t care if I’m hanged… just give me two days before my hanging and I will go and have a field day in Juhapura where seven or eight lakhs [seven or eight hundred thousand] of these people stay… I will finish them off… let a few more of them die… at least twenty-five thousand to fifty thousand should die.”

    And where in Side A’s scheme of things would we place the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh bible, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined by M. S. Golwalkar , who became head of the RSS in 1944. (The RSS is the ideological heart, the holding company of the Hindu fundamentalist Bharatiya Janata Party, BJP, and its militias. The RSS was founded in 1925. By the 1930s, its founder, Dr. K. B. Hedgewar, a fan of Benito Mussolini’s, had begun to model it overtly along the lines of Italian fascism.)

    It says:

    “Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening.”

    Or:

    “To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here… a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by.”

    Of course Muslims are not the only people in the gun sights of the Hindu Right. Dalits have been consistently targeted. Recently, in Kandhamal in Orissa, Christians were the target of two and a half months of violence that left more than 40 dead. Forty thousand people have been driven from their homes, half of whom now live in refugee camps.

    All these years Hafiz Saeed has lived the life of a respectable man in Lahore as the head of the Jamaat-ud Daawa, which many believe is a front organization for the Lashkar-e-Taiba. He continues to recruit young boys for his own bigoted jihad with his twisted, fiery sermons. On December 11, the United Nations imposed sanctions on the Jamaat-ud-Daawa. The Pakistani government succumbed to international pressure and put Hafiz Saeed under house arrest.

    Babu Bajrangi, however, is out on bail and lives the life of a respectable man in Gujarat. A couple of years after the genocide, he left the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP, a militia of the RSS) to join the Shiv Sena (another rightwing nationalist party). Narendra Modi, Bajrangi’s former mentor, is still the Chief Minister of Gujarat.

    So the man who presided over the Gujarat genocide was reelected twice, and is deeply respected by India’s biggest corporate houses, Reliance and Tata. Suhel Seth, a TV impresario and corporate spokesperson, recently said, “Modi is God.” The policemen who supervised and sometimes even assisted the rampaging Hindu mobs in Gujarat have been rewarded and promoted.

    The RSS has 45,000 branches and seven million volunteers preaching its doctrine of hate across India. They include Narendra Modi, but also former Prime Minister A. B. Vajpayee, current leader of the opposition L. K. Advani, and a host of other senior politicians, bureaucrats, and police and intelligence officers.

    And if that’s not enough to complicate our picture of secular democracy, we should place on record that there are plenty of Muslim organizations within India preaching their own narrow bigotry.

    So, on balance, if I had to choose between Side A and Side B, I’d pick Side B. We need context. Always.

    A Close Embrace of Hatred, Terrifying Familiarity, and Love

    On this nuclear subcontinent, that context is Partition. The Radcliffe Line, which separated India and Pakistan and tore through states, districts, villages, fields, communities, water systems, homes, and families, was drawn virtually overnight. It was Britain’s final, parting kick to us.

    Partition triggered the massacre of more than a million people and the largest migration of a human population in contemporary history. Eight million people, Hindus fleeing the new Pakistan, Muslims fleeing the new kind of India, left their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

    Each of those people carries, and passes down, a story of unimaginable pain, hate, horror, but yearning too. That wound, those torn but still unsevered muscles, that blood and those splintered bones still lock us together in a close embrace of hatred, terrifying familiarity, but also love. It has left Kashmir trapped in a nightmare from which it can’t seem to emerge, a nightmare that has claimed more than 60,000 lives.

    Pakistan, the Land of the Pure, became an Islamic Republic, and then very quickly a corrupt, violent military state, openly intolerant of other faiths.

    India on the other hand declared herself an inclusive, secular democracy. It was a magnificent undertaking, but Babu Bajrangi’s predecessors had been hard at work since the 1920s, dripping poison into India’s bloodstream, undermining that idea of India even before it was born.

    By 1990, they were ready to make a bid for power. In 1992 Hindu mobs exhorted by L. K. Advani stormed the Babri Masjid and demolished it.

    By 1998, the BJP was in power at the center. The U.S. War on Terror put the wind in their sails. It allowed them to do exactly as they pleased, even to commit genocide and then present their fascism as a legitimate form of chaotic democracy.

    This happened at a time when India had opened its huge market to international finance and it was in the interests of international corporations and the media houses they owned to project it as a country that could do no wrong. That gave Hindu nationalists all the impetus and the impunity they needed.

    This, then, is the larger historical context of terrorism on the subcontinent — and of the Mumbai attacks. It shouldn’t surprise us that Hafiz Saeed of the Lashkar-e-Taiba is from Shimla (India) and L. K. Advani of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh is from Sindh (Pakistan).

    In much the same way as it did after the 2001 Parliament attack, the 2002 burning of the Sabarmati Express, and the 2007 bombing of the Samjhauta Express, the government of India announced that it has “incontrovertible” evidence that the Lashkar-e-Taiba, backed by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was behind the Mumbai strikes.

    The Lashkar has denied involvement, but remains the prime accused. According to the police and intelligence agencies, the Lashkar operates in India through an organization called the “Indian Mujahideen.” Two Indian nationals, Sheikh Mukhtar Ahmed, a Special Police Officer working for the Jammu and Kashmir Police, and Tausif Rehman, a resident of Kolkata in West Bengal, have been arrested in connection with the Mumbai attacks.

    So already the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy.

    Almost always, when these stories unspool, they reveal a complicated global network of foot soldiers, trainers, recruiters, middlemen, and undercover intelligence and counter-intelligence operatives working not just on both sides of the India-Pakistan border, but in several countries simultaneously.

    In today’s world, trying to pin down the provenance of a terrorist strike and isolate it within the borders of a single nation state, is very much like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. It’s almost impossible.

    In circumstances like these, air strikes to “take out” terrorist camps may take out the camps, but certainly will not “take out” the terrorists. And neither will war.

    Also, in our bid for the moral high ground, let’s try not to forget that the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, the LTTE of neighboring Sri Lanka, one of the world’s most deadly terrorist groups, were trained by the Indian Army.

    Releasing Frankensteins

    Thanks largely to the part it was forced to play as America’s ally, first in its war in support of the Afghan Islamists and then in its war against them, Pakistan, whose territory is reeling under these contradictions, is careening toward civil war.

    As recruiting agents for America’s jihad against the Soviet Union, it was the job of the Pakistani Army and the ISI to nurture and channel funds to Islamic fundamentalist organizations. Having wired up these Frankensteins and released them into the world, the U.S. expected it could rein them in like pet mastiffs whenever it wanted to. Certainly it did not expect them to come calling in the heart of the homeland on September 11. So once again, Afghanistan had to be violently remade.

    Now the debris of a re-ravaged Afghanistan has washed up on Pakistan’s borders.

    Nobody, least of all the Pakistani government, denies that it is presiding over a country that is threatening to implode. The terrorist training camps, the fire-breathing mullahs, and the maniacs who believe that Islam will, or should, rule the world are mostly the detritus of two Afghan wars. Their ire rains down on the Pakistani government and Pakistani civilians as much, if not more, than it does on India.

    If, at this point, India decides to go to war, perhaps the descent of the whole region into chaos will be complete. The debris of a bankrupt, destroyed Pakistan will wash up on India’s shores, endangering us as never before.

    If Pakistan collapses, we can look forward to having millions of “non-state actors” with an arsenal of nuclear weapons at their disposal as neighbors.

    It’s hard to understand why those who steer India’s ship are so keen to replicate Pakistan’s mistakes and call damnation upon this country by inviting the United States to further meddle clumsily and dangerously in our extremely complicated affairs. A superpower never has allies. It only has agents.

    On the plus side, the advantage of going to war is that it’s the best way for India to avoid facing up to the serious trouble building on our home front.

    The Mumbai attacks were broadcast live (and exclusive!) on all or most of our 67 24-hour news channels and god knows how many international ones. TV anchors in their studios and journalists at “ground zero” kept up an endless stream of excited commentary.

    Over three days and three nights we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men, armed with guns and gadgets, exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard, and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation.

    While they did this, they indiscriminately massacred unarmed people, in railway stations, hospitals, and luxury hotels, unmindful of their class, caste, religion, or nationality.

    (Part of the helplessness of the security forces had to do with having to worry about hostages. In other situations, in Kashmir for example, their tactics are not so sensitive. Whole buildings are blown up. Human shields are used. The U.S. and Israeli armies don’t hesitate to send cruise missiles into buildings and drop daisy cutters on wedding parties in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan.)

    But this was different. And it was on TV.

    The boy-terrorists’ nonchalant willingness to kill — and be killed — mesmerized their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news.

    Here was something new. Die Hard 25. The gruesome performance went on and on. TV ratings soared. Ask any television magnate or corporate advertiser who measures broadcast time in seconds, not minutes, what that’s worth.

    Eventually the killers died and died hard, all but one. (Perhaps, in the chaos, some escaped. We may never know.)

    Throughout the standoff the terrorists made no demands and expressed no desire to negotiate. Their purpose was to kill people, and inflict as much damage as they could, before they were killed themselves. They left us completely bewildered.

    Collateral Damage

    When we say, “Nothing can justify terrorism,” what most of us mean is that nothing can justify the taking of human life. We say this because we respect life, because we think it’s precious.

    So what are we to make of those who care nothing for life, not even their own? The truth is that we have no idea what to make of them, because we can sense that even before they’ve died, they’ve journeyed to another world where we cannot reach them.

    One TV channel (India TV) broadcast a phone conversation with one of the attackers, who called himself “Imran Babar.” I cannot vouch for the veracity of the conversation, but the things he talked about were the things contained in the “terror emails” that were sent out before several other bomb attacks in India. Things we don’t want to talk about any more: the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992, the genocidal slaughter of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, the brutal repression in Kashmir.

    “You’re surrounded,” the anchor told him. “You are definitely going to die. Why don’t you surrender?”

    “We die every day,” he replied in a strange, mechanical way. “It’s better to live one day as a lion and then die this way.” He didn’t seem to want to change the world. He just seemed to want to take it down with him.

    If the men were indeed members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba, why didn’t it matter to them that a large number of their victims were Muslim, or that their action was likely to result in a severe backlash against the Muslim community in India whose rights they claim to be fighting for?

    Terrorism is a heartless ideology, and like most ideologies that have their eye on the Big Picture, individuals don’t figure in their calculations except as collateral damage.

    It has always been a part of, and often even the aim of, terrorist strategy to exacerbate a bad situation in order to expose hidden fault lines. The blood of “martyrs” irrigates terrorism. Hindu terrorists need dead Hindus, Communist terrorists need dead proletarians, Islamist terrorists need dead Muslims. The dead become the demonstration, the proof of victimhood, which is central to the project.

    A single act of terrorism is not in itself meant to achieve military victory; at best it is meant to be a catalyst that triggers something else, something much larger than itself, a tectonic shift, a realignment. The act itself is theater, spectacle, and symbolism, and today the stage on which it pirouettes and performs its acts of bestiality is Live TV. Even as TV anchors were being condemned by other TV anchors, the effectiveness of the terror strikes was being magnified a thousand-fold by the TV broadcasts.

    Through the endless hours of analysis and the endless op-ed essays, in India at least, there has been very little mention of the elephants in the room: Kashmir, Gujarat, and the demolition of the Babri Masjid.

    Instead, we had retired diplomats and strategic experts debate the pros and cons of a war against Pakistan. We had the rich threatening not to pay their taxes unless their security was guaranteed. (Is it alright for the poor to remain unprotected?) We had people suggest that the government step down and each state in India be handed over to a separate corporation.

    We had the death of former Prime Minster V. P. Singh, the hero of Dalits and lower castes, and the villain of upper caste Hindus pass without a mention.

    We had Suketu Mehta, author of Maximum City and co-writer of the Bollywood film Mission Kashmir give us his version of George Bush’s famous “Why They Hate Us” speech. His analysis of why religious bigots, both Hindu and Muslim, hate Mumbai: “Perhaps because Mumbai stands for lucre, profane dreams and an indiscriminate openness.”

    His prescription: “The best answer to the terrorists is to dream bigger, make even more money, and visit Mumbai more than ever.”

    Didn’t George Bush ask Americans to go out and shop after 9/11? Ah yes. 9/11, the day we can’t seem to get away from.

    A Shadowy History of Suspicious Terror Attacks

    Though one chapter of horror in Mumbai has ended, another might have just begun. Day after day, a powerful, vociferous section of the Indian elite, goaded by marauding TV anchors who make Fox News look almost radical and left-wing, have taken to mindlessly attacking politicians, all politicians, glorifying the police and the army, and virtually asking for a police state.

    It isn’t surprising that those who have grown plump on the pickings of democracy (such as it is) should now be calling for a police state. The era of “pickings” is long gone. We’re now in the era of Grabbing by Force, and democracy has a terrible habit of getting in the way.

    Dangerous, stupid oversimplifications like the Police are Good/Politicians are Bad, Chief Executives are Good/Chief Ministers are Bad, Army is Good/Government is Bad, India is Good/Pakistan is Bad are being bandied about by TV channels that have already whipped their viewers into a state of almost uncontrollable hysteria.

    Tragically this regression into intellectual infancy comes at a time when people in India were beginning to see that, in the business of terrorism, victims and perpetrators sometimes exchange roles.

    It’s an understanding that the people of Kashmir, given their dreadful experiences of the last 20 years, have honed to an exquisite art. On the mainland we’re still learning. (If Kashmir won’t willingly integrate into India, it’s beginning to look as though India will integrate/disintegrate into Kashmir.)

    It was after the 2001 Parliament attack that the first serious questions began to be raised. A campaign by a group of lawyers and activists exposed how innocent people had been framed by the police and the press, how evidence was fabricated, how witnesses lied, how due process had been criminally violated at every stage of the investigation.

    Eventually, the courts acquitted two out of the four accused, including S. A. R. Geelani, the man whom the police claimed was the mastermind of the operation. A third, Showkat Guru, was acquitted of all the charges brought against him, but was then convicted for a fresh, comparatively minor offense.

    The Supreme Court upheld the death sentence of another of the accused, Mohammad Afzal. In its judgment the court acknowledged that there was no proof that Mohammed Afzal belonged to any terrorist group, but went on to say, quite shockingly, “The collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender.”

    Even today we don’t really know who the terrorists that attacked the Indian Parliament were and who they worked for.

    More recently, on September 19th of this year, we had the controversial “encounter” at Batla House in Jamia Nagar, Delhi, where the Special Cell of the Delhi police gunned down two Muslim students in their rented flat under seriously questionable circumstances, claiming that they were responsible for serial bombings in Delhi, Jaipur, and Ahmedabad in 2008. An assistant commissioner of police, Mohan Chand Sharma, who played a key role in the Parliament attack investigation, lost his life as well. He was one of India’s many “encounter specialists,” known and rewarded for having summarily executed several “terrorists.”

    There was an outcry against the Special Cell from a spectrum of people, ranging from eyewitnesses in the local community to senior Congress Party leaders, students, journalists, lawyers, academics, and activists, all of whom demanded a judicial inquiry into the incident.

    In response, the BJP and L. K. Advani lauded Mohan Chand Sharma as a “Braveheart” and launched a concerted campaign in which they targeted those who had dared to question the integrity of the police, saying to do so was “suicidal” and calling them “anti-national.” Of course, there has been no enquiry.

    Only days after the Batla House event, another story about “terrorists” surfaced in the news. In a report submitted to a Sessions Court, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) said that a team from Delhi’s Special Cell (the same team that led the Batla House encounter, including Mohan Chand Sharma) had abducted two innocent men, Irshad Ali and Moarif Qamar, in December 2005, planted two kilograms of RDX (explosives) and two pistols on them, and then arrested them as “terrorists” who belonged to Al Badr (which operates out of Kashmir).

    Ali and Qamar, who have spent years in jail, are only two examples out of hundreds of Muslims who have been similarly jailed, tortured, and even killed on false charges.

    This pattern changed in October 2008 when Maharashtra’s Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS), which was investigating the September 2008 Malegaon blasts, arrested a Hindu preacher Sadhvi Pragya, a self-styled God man, Swami Dayanand Pande, and Lt. Col. Purohit, a serving officer of the Indian Army. All the arrested belong to Hindu nationalist organizations, including a Hindu supremacist group called Abhinav Bharat.

    The Shiv Sena, the BJP, and the RSS condemned the Maharashtra ATS, and vilified its chief, Hemant Karkare, claiming he was part of a political conspiracy and declaring that “Hindus could not be terrorists.” L. K. Advani changed his mind about his policy on the police and made rabble rousing speeches to huge gatherings in which he denounced the ATS for daring to cast aspersions on holy men and women.

    On November 25th, newspapers reported that the ATS was investigating the high profile VHP chief Pravin Togadia’s possible role in the blasts in Malegaon (a predominantly Muslim town). The next day, in an extraordinary twist of fate, Hemant Karkare was killed in the Mumbai attacks. The chances are that the new chief, whoever he is, will find it hard to withstand the political pressure that is bound to be brought on him over the Malegaon investigation.

    While the Sangh Parivar does not seem to have come to a final decision over whether or not it is anti-national and suicidal to question the police, Arnab Goswami, anchorperson of Times Now television, has stepped up to the plate. He has taken to naming, demonizing, and openly heckling people who have dared to question the integrity of the police and armed forces.

    My name and the name of the well-known lawyer Prashant Bhushan have come up several times. At one point, while interviewing a former police officer, Arnab Goswami turned to the camera: “Arundhati Roy and Prashant Bhushan,” he said. “I hope you are watching this. We think you are disgusting.”

    For a TV anchor to do this in an atmosphere as charged and as frenzied as the one that prevails today amounts to incitement, as well as threat, and would probably in different circumstances have cost a journalist his or her job.

    So, according to a man aspiring to be the next prime minister of India, and another who is the public face of a mainstream TV channel, citizens have no right to raise questions about the police.

    This in a country with a shadowy history of suspicious terror attacks, murky investigations, and fake “encounters.” This in a country that boasts of the highest number of custodial deaths in the world, and yet refuses to ratify the international covenant on torture. A country where the ones who make it to torture chambers are the lucky ones because at least they’ve escaped being “encountered” by our Encounter Specialists. A country where the line between the underworld and the Encounter Specialists virtually does not exist.

    The Monster in the Mirror

    How should those of us whose hearts have been sickened by the knowledge of all of this view the Mumbai attacks, and what are we to do about them?

    There are those who point out that U.S. strategy has been successful inasmuch as the United States has not suffered a major attack on its home ground since 9/11. However, some would say that what America is suffering now is far worse.

    If the idea behind the 9/11 terror attacks was to goad America into showing its true colors, what greater success could the terrorists have asked for? The U.S. military is bogged down in two unwinnable wars, which have made the United States the most hated country in the world. Those wars have contributed greatly to the unraveling of the American economy and who knows, perhaps eventually the American empire.

    (Could it be that battered, bombed Afghanistan, the graveyard of the Soviet Union, will be the undoing of this one too?)

    Hundreds of thousands of people, including thousands of American soldiers, have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. The frequency of terrorist strikes on U.S. allies/agents (including India) and U.S. interests in the rest of the world has increased dramatically since 9/11.

    George W. Bush, the man who led the U.S. response to 9/11, is a despised figure not just internationally, but also by his own people.

    Who can possibly claim that the United States is winning the War on Terror?

    Homeland Security has cost the U.S. government billions of dollars. Few countries, certainly not India, can afford that sort of price tag. But even if we could, the fact is that this vast homeland of ours cannot be secured or policed in the way the United States has been. It’s not that kind of homeland.

    We have a hostile nuclear-weapons state that is slowly spinning out of control as a neighbor; we have a military occupation in Kashmir and a shamefully persecuted, impoverished minority of more than 150 million Muslims who are being targeted as a community and pushed to the wall, whose young see no justice on the horizon, and who, were they to totally lose hope and radicalize, will end up as a threat not just to India, but to the whole world.

    If 10 men can hold off the NSG commandos and the police for three days, and if it takes half a million soldiers to hold down the Kashmir valley, do the math. What kind of Homeland Security can secure India?

    Nor for that matter will any other quick fix.

    Anti-terrorism laws are not meant for terrorists; they’re for people that governments don’t like. That’s why they have a conviction rate of less than 2%. They’re just a means of putting inconvenient people away without bail for a long time and eventually letting them go.

    Terrorists like those who attacked Mumbai are hardly likely to be deterred by the prospect of being refused bail or being sentenced to death. It’s what they want.

    What we’re experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet’s squelching under our feet.

    The only way to contain — it would be naïve to say end — terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror. We’re standing at a fork in the road. One sign says “Justice,” the other “Civil War.” There’s no third sign and there’s no going back. Choose.

    Copyright 2008 Arundhati Roy

    Afghanistan
    Pakistan
    Terrorism
    Cross-posted from TomDispatch.com We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watchi…
    Cross-posted from TomDispatch.com We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watchi…

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    I see not an answer to a single question and facts I have raised about wretched Pakistan.

    Its a country cut in 1/2 and getting worse every day.

    Not a single acknowledgement of the venality that Pak inflicts on its minorities and upon itself.

    Not a single acknowledgement of its discriminator laws and repressive Islamic society.

    In contrasts, with all its imperfections and warts, India is still a secular, democratic Republic and bigger than it was in 1947 !

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Rajiv baita we don’t answer anything coming from your end period.

    When are yu going to acknowledge your short commings.

    You refuse to discuss the things which shows your own uglyy face.

    Sweet dreams

    Don’t shoot them pigeons outside, it might be one of your own.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    @Azhar,

    I have acknowledged a million times, short comings of Indian democracy. However, it’s the democractic set-up that offers up all the solutions, by which the Indian state has remained intact and grown !

    What about Pak ?

    How are you solving your problems ?

    So when is the Islamic state going to repudiate the anti-minority laws you have enacted ?
    Do you support those criminal anti-minority discriminatory laws ?

    Is Pak in better shape and size today, than it was in 1947 ?

    How is Taleban and Pak finances doing ? How long is your government going to live on aid money ?

    Has ISI and Army stopped ruling the Islamic state ?

    @Azhar,
    Kill as many pigeons , rats , pigs, cows and such other animals you want and eat them as you desire. But stop killing the minorities in Pak.

    Got it ?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Baita why are you getting angry…No matter what happens in Pakistan we are not answerable to least of all to Indians, get it buddy. STOP demanding answers because you are a nobody. We also acknowledge our short comings, and arrogance yo are showing about your countries financial abilities, you need see overall picture of your country and then talk.

    I was showing you a mirror, that minorities are the same in both countries, but don’t be so ignorant to the fact your record is just as urgy.

    You are damn right we will kill any rats, pigeons, cows or goats coming across the borders from the east.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar Hussain

    “because you are a nobody.”

    we are your BAAP. ( BIG DADDY) . we have F-U-C-K-E-D Pakistan 4 times and we will keep on f-u-c-k-i-n-g you for eternity.

    whatever be our condition, its MUCH BETTER than Pakistan.

    Bete, lets talk about the P-A-K-I pigs ( Muslim pigs) that we massacred in the 4 wars.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar Hussain

    you are a Pilla ( progeny of a pig). it would be better if i call you by that name

    Sal Reply:

    Then Y u didnt take Pak Kashmir from Pak which you claimed ur own territory ii all these 4 wars…

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    thats because of the indecisive Congress , that survives by licking Muslim s-h-i-t.

    Sal Reply:

    @Rajiv

    Sometimes I wonder how much stupid you can be…There should be some limits….

    So You care so much of Pak minority which is 2% of Pak but what abt minorities in India which are more than 35% (Muslims + Dalits + Sikhs + Christians)…..Does it make any sense…You ignore your 35% and talk abt 2% of Pak…

    Losing 1/2 of Pak…Let me know in what terms…..Bangladesh was just 15% of total of Pak in area…Yes it was 1/2 of Pak in terms of population but one has to realized that it was already separated by geography of more than 1000 sq miles…..and you played a very great part in 71….

    You talk abt India in good shape….is it? then what abt Aksi Chin which is 15000 sq miles taken by China in 1962…And from last 62 years you have been displaying Pak Kashmir (32,000 sq miles) in your offical map but you dont have it…So Aksi Chin + Pak Kashmir = 47,000 sq miles makes your country in very good shape…

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    like a typical ignorant p-a-k-i you have begun your rant against India. minorities in India are not seen as someone away from the mainstream. they are considered as Indians first unlike what we see in Pakistan. you p-a-k-i-s even kill other Muslim sects like Ahmediyas, Qadiyanis and the Shia Muslims.

    confirmed that you have been studied in a madrassa. any person just at the first glance of the South Asian political map , can rightly tell that todays Bangladesh is at least 35% of the Pakistan’s landmass. learn Maths you a-s-s-h-o-l-e.

    Aksai Chin and Baltistan are the only parts that have been snatched from us through deceit.
    And remember. separation of Bangladesh from Pakistan was India’s answer to Pakistan’s 1947 occupation of North Kashmir.

    no one can be as ignorant and as stupid like a p-a-k-i

    Sal Reply:

    There is a diofference between Bangladesh and Pak KAshmir…Bangladesh was 1000 sq miles away from Pak and this was easy for you to separate it. Furthermore Bangladesh is an idependent coutnry, not occupied by India but Pak Kashmir is something you claim your own territory..What a insult…..

    You calim to separate bangladesh from Pak but could take your own territory from Pak…..And all you can do is to show Pak Kashmir in your offical map..Keep doing this…

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    i think that you are a typical p-a-k-i a-s-s-h-o-l-e. Bangladesh was formerly East Pakistan that was separated in 1971 due to the atrocities of the Punjabi Mussalmaans.

    reconquering Pakistan occupied Kashmir wouldnt have been a challenge only if the incompetent spineless Nehru would have ordered an armed assault of the Indian forces in Baltistan (or North Kashmir), as per adviced by S.V. Patel.

    the indecisive congress failed to make decisions that would have shown Pakistan its deserved position (aukaat)

    and remember, not only Kashmir but the entire nation you call Pakistan is nothing but a part of India.

    Sal Reply:

    Then what the hell you did in these 4 wars as you calimed you won all them

  • Vijay Kumar

    Dear Sal and Azhar,

    If the pigeon you are alluding to is Kasab, it just shows your sick Pakistani mentality.

    Kill innocents in the name of jehad and celeberate. How sick…. !!

    Pakistanis cannot change.

    Keep qoting Arundhati ROy. SHe is a publicity seeker, nobody respects in India. Yes we are a democracy and she has a right to speak. In fact even has the right to misuse her freedom which she would never get in a Maoist state which she supports.

    By the way she celeberates incest with her brother in “God of small things.” I am sure you guys love that also.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    @ all Pakistanis on this forum….

    Quoting figures on Poverty is such a sweet lie…. :)

    First of all most of the figures are such a damn lie. They only satisfy our Pakistani brothers who start believing that suddenly they are much richer in than India… :)

    The poverty figure is about 17%. However our planning commission keeps revising the norms of who is poor so that more and more people get subsidies. You don’t see people dying of starvation or famine in India anymore.

    And yes, we do have an excess of communists in our system who for getting publicity, try to prove that the new economic policies are not working and poverty is increasing.

    So dont fool yourself.

    India is middle class now and getting richer

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Vijay ji
    Please tell the bloggers from Pakistan as to how the reversal of fortune is taking place in the economy of thecountry. Our country has now turned a lender to IMF . Is n’t it a miracle in economy that in March 2010, our country invested 10 billion dollars for buying IMF notes and over the next few weeks, the cabinet is set to clear another 4 billion dollas towards the same. Can’t these Pakistani see the big shift in India’s economy when it has changed from a borrower to a lender? They have to understand that a lot needs to change for a substantive shift, when we on bended knees went to the IMF for a loan in 1989-1990. In just 20 years , the scenario has chnaged. Look at the present scenario of Pakistan economy. They are still begging aid from World Bank and IMF. These financial institutions then put humiliating conditions to grant such loans. The same institutions are asking in return for introducing VAT and enhancement of power and fuel tarrif. That is hard to implement in a society like in pakistan.After all these institutions do not distribute alms to be blown away by the inefficient governance.
    The bloggers from across the border may be harping on caste and minority problems of our country, but then no one can abolish centuries old caste system overnight and please all sets of minorities. The efforts are being made in that direction also, but let them not judge our country from that myopic thinking. Let these gentlemen from across the border see our country from a broader prospective. It is no use to be responding to their silly and shortsighted thinking.
    Please keep it up
    BNA

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Dr. B Anand

    “Pak begging Aid from World Bank and IMF and India is giving loan to IMF and World Bank…”

    First, Pak is not getting Aid from IMF and World Bank…Pak is getting loan from IMF and World and Pak will back that loan…Many developed countries take loan/Aid from IMF and World Bank…For that case, lets take Greece..Europe has given a 150 Billion Euro Package to Greece for its bail out…What does it mean..India is better than Greece..Nope…Similary countries like Portugal, Spain and UK are in a huge debt and they have taken billions from IMF and World Banks….So What does it mean…India is better than UK, Spain or Portugal…Nope

    Lets take another view…Pak overall external debt is roughly 55 Billions US $ including recent loans from IMF and World Bank while India External debt is 232 Billion US $….(Reference available)…Now where do u stand now…

    Debt is not a criteria of judging any country..It is people and the level of poverty which tells the condition of the country…When 75% of India who lives below 2$ in a day……What they will do If India lend 10 billion US $ to IMF…Will they eat that notes….3/4 of India lives less than 2$ but you are taking pride of lending 10 billions to IMF…Does it make any sense….

    On the other hand, only 17% of pak are classified as poor by World Bank 2007-2008…and statistics of poors are far better for Pak as compared to Indians….

    [Reply]

    Gopi Thomas Reply:

    @Sai

    You are right..Pakistan is numero ono (or better than India) in all metrics of social development – health, womens education, world class institutes, democratic tradition, land distribution, information technology, infant mortality, poverty, you name it…

    Now since that is settled, is theer any thing else for you guys to achieve?

    May Allah bless you!

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. Sal
    Thanks for your response. I only responded taking a broader view of economics. Let the credit rating agencies of the world decide about the prosperity and economic progress of each country including ours. However, I compliment you for defending the position of your country, though howsoever hopelessely it is placed in world ranking. Why the world should rank Pakistan along with Iraq. Somalia, Afghanistan and Sudan as the fifth most unstable country in the world? This is a documented fact and Iam only quoting the Pakistan media in this regard.
    Regards
    BNA

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. sal
    Yes, you are right Pakistan is asking loan and not aid from IMF/World bank. But as you must be knowing that Pakistan has faltered in the past in paying back loans and only be able to pay the interest. But ultimately, these loans may be written off going by the strategic needs of the big powers. But this borrowed money does not take any one very far. That is what happened to Greece. The collapse in their econmy (borrowed) shows the consequences of excessive borrowing without taking appropriate measures to reform the economy. The bail out package from Europe was meant to save the economy of Europe so that Greece fall out does not have a cascading effect to the Europe economy. But look, when there was world wide slow down, the economy of India still survived, as there was a solid strength in the inbuilt investments and exports. The country continued a healthy GDP in the last qaurter despite so much meltdown in the world. I think we should try to analyse on a broader scale rather than be bogged down in narrow and shortsighted anlyses.
    Regards
    BNA

    Sal Reply:

    @Dr B. Anand

    You didnt get my point or you dont want to get it….

    You talk abt Pak as an unstable country..Yes but this is a fruit of War on Terror in Afganistan…This war on terror has spilled over into whole Pashthuns belt of Pak….There were no such things like Pak Taliban before 2004 (Before that there were Afgan Talibans)…However This situation is not going to last long…..As soon as US leave Afganistan…Situation will get stabalize….Furthermore…Pak has already cleared Swat, Bajur, Khyber, Orakzai, south Waziristan and now Talibans operate only in North Waziristan….and this is the reason Y sucide bombings has reduced to a significant level now as compared to 2007 & 2008 when daily bombings occured…while on the other hand, Maoist r opreating their insurgency due to poverty and dicrimination (Unlike Taliban who use political reason) since 1966 and You didnt even decide yet what to do with them.

    Now I come to economy….I gave you a UNDP report that 30 millions more indian fell below poverty line in 2009….On one hand your economy is improving and on the other hand…Your nos of poors are also increasing…..If you talk abt economy then yes Indian economy is improving to a very rate but at the end it is the people or the % of poors that matters…

    Indian economy = 7.4% in 2009-2010 (if I am not wrong)
    Pak Economy = 4.1% in 2009-2010 (Govt figures)

    Despite the fact of war on terror on Pashthuns belt of Pak, still Pak economy is progressing…But I will must say that at the end, You have to go to the people….In 2007, Poverty in Pak was 17% by World Bank and for India, it is more than 40% by the same World Bank….

    One more thing to say is only 2 Billions US $ was wriiten off for pak by US itself and in the past, Pak has takn loan from IMF and returned that loan successfully which Musharraf takes the credit…

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Hello Mr. sal
    Thanks for your response. I think it is an unending discussion, especially when you are viewing at a very micro level which just happens to be the minuscule of the whole. Wish you had a broader prospective and also a will to introspect. Anyway, it is nice to be interacting with you and let us agree to disagree. Let us wish a better future to both the countries so that it brings peace and happiness to everyone.
    Regards
    BNA

    Sal Reply:

    @Dr. B. N Anand

    YEs I agree that this is an unending discussion..However I dont belive that I am talking abt Micro level and I wish you wil make a difference between Govt, People and economy of 3 Wrold countries…

  • Vijay Kumar

    To all my Pakistani brothers….

    COngratulations !! :) :) :) !! you guys are the Champions….

    From Karachi to Kansas…

    From Lahore to London

    From Margalla Hills to Mumbai sea port

    From NWFP to New York city ….

    YOU guys are the champions…..

    In TERRORISM !! in KIlling INNOCENTS !! :)

    In suicide bombings :) :)

    The Leading world exporters of Heroin and opium !!! leading exporter ji leading exporter….

    Wah wah wah !!! ha ha ha :) :) :)

    what a country… what a people…. :)

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    Pakistanis are champions in getting f-u-c-k-e-d by the Talibanis and India

    [Reply]

  • Raju kurien

    People like Vinod canot cut off the chord with Pakistan.

    Nostalgia of olger generation aside, we should just cut off any discussion/comparison on Pakistan. Does US compare itself to Mexico or Cuba? Contiguity does not mean equals.

    Pakistan is an Islamic country, bent on self destruction. India is a country with aspirational objectives and huge accomplishments through a seat at the table for all in the country. We should compare with other vibrant democracies (I do not want to minimize China’s leap; another country, another system), and emulate/discard.

    Pakistan is an irritant pimple; our defence systems should be strengthened and be on alert to remove that pimple if there is a chance the pimple is cancerous — and it looks it is cancerous.

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Hilarious

    Pakistanis ( sal ) now talking about China’s advances !!

    Are Pakistanis now claiming to be Chinese ? Or China , now a part of Pakistan ?

    I know many Pakistanis in USA are claiming to be Indians because the word Pakistani in USA is synonomous with disparaging things. I dont blame the Pakistanis here, who just don’t want to be associated with the name ‘Pakistan’.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Pakistan being wealthier is a lie concoted by false data.

    There is lady, a professor from JNU called Jayati Ghosh who features prominently on Pakistani websites and she disparages all claims of India prospering and shining. To her, all of India’s growth is like that of a Latin American country ( read banana republic) while that of China is genuine and egalitarian.

    Poor lady is delusional and cannot even see that a dicatatorship like CHina can never be egalitarian. But then like Arundahti Roy she goes to a western capital, uses a capitalist run TV channel to get money and publicity and then blames India for being a market economy and not a state controlled one. Poor girl…. tch tch… pity her. She is now being used by the Pakistan Defence forum as a publicity tool for disparaging India’s democracy and growth.

    These sort of idiots will keep trying to demoralise India.

    As far as Pakistan is concerned, we have to factor in the fact that a lot wealth there is a creation of heroin and drug export as well as the aid money it gets by creating terror.

    It is still far behind India and in GOdman Sachs projection figures for BRIC countries will probably be the blacksheep of the entire world.

    America itself is a victim of the “Charlie Wilson” war. Charlie Wilson, being the senator who along with his mistress forced Ronald Reagan to earmark more funds for Zia Ul Haq and Pakistan to fiught the SOviets in Afghanistan.

    Irony is that the Soviets would have anyway left Afghanistan after the advent of Gorbachev, As they left Romania. Bulgaria, GDR and rest of Eastern Europe and former republics.

    Ronald Reagan was the cardboard Cowboy of Hollywood and Charlie Wilson ends up becoming the cause of so much trouble the world faces now.

    Pakistan, meanwhile has created its own governance model which we can call the Charlie Wilson model; Create terror in Afghanistan and rest of the world and then force us to give it aid….

    What a country… what a people….

    Wah ! WAH ! WAH !!! :) :) :) Ha HA HAA

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    Good suggestion….Go and get treatment

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Shriman Azhar and Sal,

    Today’s news in Pakistan’s Dawn is about

    a) Pakistan being the most unstable country in the world

    b) Pakistan’s 6 million people accepting Taliban as their masters and living with no human rights.

    Guys, you should go back and do some social work rather than training pigeons to attack India :)

    Jannat ghar ko banao…. insaan ko maar kar jannat nahi milegi …

    But will you guys ever change??/ :)

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Vijay Kumar…

    Y do u belive in telling a lie…I have read the report today if it is Human Right Amnesty International….What does report says is…

    1) 4 Million Pak lives under Taliban (You said it is 6 million)

    2) Pak is the 5th Unstable country (You said its no1 )

    Now I come to Human rights Amnesty Internation report which is full of contradiction…It says 4 millions lives under Taliban…Nope ….That is totally wrong….There is no more Taliban (or May I say Taliban rule) in KP Province..similary…Taliban has been cleared of Bajur, Khyber, Orakzai and South Waziristan….Talibans only operate in North Waziristan and the population os North Waziristan is less than 400,000 and not all of the Waziristan is under Taliban as 20,000 Pak Troops are already in North Waziristan…So 4 millions figure is totally a lie.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    here’s an answer to your idiotic question what we did in those 4 wars

    1948- avoided succession of Kashmir with Pakistan

    1965- our armies conquered La W-h-o-r-e and could have invaded and conquered rest of the Punjab but had to back off because of the Tashkent accord due pressure from the former Soviet Union.

    1971- almost f-u-c-k-e-d 75% Pakistan and separated Bangladesh. we r-a-p-e-d and humiliated your nation. heaviest loss for you born losers.

    1999- avoided another invasion attempt on Kashmir.

    it has been because of the1948 UN intervention to declare Kashmir a disputed territory and our Muslim foot licking indecisive spineless Congress because of which we couldnt make a decision of winning back Kashmir

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Paritosh

    1) In 1948..Pak got 33,000 sq miles of Kashmir….and If you have avoided succession of Kashmir to Pak, then may I ask Y Chacha Nehro went UN and gave a proposal of holding a plebescite in Kashmir and then Y Plebscite was not held in Kashmir…Perhaps you know the what answers Kashmiris will give to you in the plebscite….Second…Pak can also calim a victory according to your logic afterall Pak got 33,000 sq miles of Kashmir (Remember…India has 38,000 sq miles now)…

    2) No Sir….India didnt capture Lahore…This has never happened in history and I know better than you…65 was indecisive and no result came from that war…

    3) In 71, you can claim victory in Bangladesh but it was too easy for you cos Bangladesh was 1000 sq miles away from Pak and there were just 3 divisions of Pak army in Bangladesh facing 12 divisions of Indian army and 3 brigades of Mukti Bahini….

    4) Your own Chaha Nehro went to UN…It was not Pak but you who went UN…

    Anyway…My question remains same..If you have won all the wars then Y u dint take Pak Kashmir from Pak which you calim your own territory..Leave Pak Kashmir…You didnt even have half of the Kashmir

    vijay kumar Reply:

    There is no more Taliban in Pakistan !

    Ha ha ha …. only a pakistani will believe this….

    After all, all the evil jehadis who spill and spout bile from both ends look like child geniuses
    to their fellow Pakistanis.

    All the evil jehadis who spill and spout hatred from both ends look like passengers to jannat to fellow Pakistanis…. :)

    Sal, if you want to serve your country just shoot the evil jehadis at both ends. Till then Pakistan has no hope.

    Hoping against hope , that you will change….

    Your loving neighbours from India…. wish you well :)

    [Reply]

    ashu Reply:

    Sal,

    Your question to Paritosh is idiotic. We did not start any of these wars, so we do not need to show any territory to claim victory.

    Our stated policy has always been of not capturing or retaining any territory from any sovereign neighbour. Infact India recognized Bangladesh within 15 days of Pakistan initiating a war against us. We wanted to get out of it as soon as possible.
    All the wars 47 included were a result of your rulers misjudging the Indian ability to combat as well as support that they would receive in Kashmir. The propagandist elements in your country misled the generals about how eager the kashmiri population was to join pakistan and hence they attacked and made fools of themselves.

    No body in India wants any territory from Pakistan or bangladesh. Infact we would be grateful if Bangladesh could just absorb back a few of the 10 million or so illegal migrants that are living in various parts of India.

    To all your arguments about minorities, just one statistic will answer your doubts, provided you keep a open mind – Since 1947 hindus have decreased as a percentage of Indias population. Muslims, Buddhists & Christians have increased.

    Also you dont need to be so concerned about Dalits – they have Mayawati who is the CM of UP the largest state in India. She can take care of their aspirations.

    About women – three of the most powerful people in India today are women – Sonia gandhi, the President – Pratibha patil & Mayawati.

    Is everything perfect in India? Obviously it is not.
    Do we have the right to look and Pakistan and gloat? No, we dont.
    Do we need to look at Pakistan and gloat? No, we dont. We need to look to the US & China and keep working towards equitable growth.
    Peace with pakistan would be great as it would help focus resources on other needs. However given pakistan world view regarding Kashmir, we have no choice but to stay alert and keep developing our security mechanisms.

    I hope you and your country progress.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @ashu

    wellsaid. so, he thinks we are looking at Pakistan and gloating????

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ anshu

    “Peace with pakistan would be great as it would help focus resources on other needs. However given pakistan world view regarding Kashmir, we have no choice but to stay alert and keep developing our security mechanisms.

    I hope you and your country progress.”

    it would have been better if you havent had answered him.

    no peace with those PIGS. only DEATH and DESTRUCTION for Pakistan is my true wish

    i hope Pakistan gets annhilated

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Ashu

    One sensible comment I found..OK..Good…

    So you are saying that India doesnt beleive in capturing territories of other’s countries by force or in war and this is the reason India didnt capture Pak Kashmir even India consider it as its own territory…..

    What if I say that India tried it many times in all of the wars but Pak didnt let her do it….India has successfully captured siachin in 1984 which was a empty land then…Similary abt 71….You had started a war by creating and supporting openly Mukti Bahini…..Who told you to do this….

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    “There is no more Taleban” !!

    Even the Pak ISI, which lies profusely and believes Pak people are dumb, doesn’t lie that much.

    But then, When Pak surrendered to India in Bangladesh, and lost 1/2 the coutry ,Pak radio reported that ‘local commanders have agreed to a ceasefire”.

    There is no end to the kind of absurdities that Pak people will willingly believe and the Pak army/ISI will tell its people.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    !Rajiv

    Yes..Talibans only operate freely in North Waziristan and they have been cleared from their previous held territories…Having said that, it would be very good if you also tell how many districts inwhich Maoist operate…May be you dont know that..It is more than 200 distrcits out of 600 roughly districts of India…You should be proud of having a red corridor

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    There is nothing unpatriotic in calling a spade a spade. You are clsoing ur eyes and dclaring it is midnite.

    Anyway, if you want to believe Pakistan is super great and India is struggling, be my guest..Belive that..

    May your belief save you –but watch out when you pray..your brotjers will kill you… but that is accepted in Islam..Aurangaseb killing his brothers, Ottoman emperors killing their brothers, Sultan of Oman poutting his father in prison..the list just goes on

    Dont waste precious time – We on this sid eof the border agree Pakiustan is the geratest ..Satisfied??? Now go and take care of all those aconyms operating there -LeT, JeM, and thous and of otehrs

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Taleban = Pakistan , created by ISI/Army which rule Pakistan.

    Maoists are not created by our army or ISI and are not state sponsored.

    Maoists have been there , for last 100 years. No big deal because the state is not in collusion with Maoists .
    The Pak state is in collusion with its own enemies.
    Afghan Taleban and Haqini Taleban, are still the jewels in the crown of Pak !
    They are carrying on Jinnah’s goals of a Islamic state.

    Big diference.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    clarifications for your doubts

    1- yes Pakistan did conquer Gilgit and Baltistan. also its true that the suggestion of a plebiscite in Kashmir was given by Nehru. however Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel had adviced this moron Nehru to send an army instead and reconquer (which could have been possible if implemented). but this moron was more concerned about India’s “international image”

    2- you dont know a thing cause you may have been madrassa educated. just search Wikipedia and you will find that Indian army almost came to the gates of La W-h-o-r-e.

    3-ok man fine. if the Bangladesh victory was too easy for us then lets talk about the Western front in the battle of Longewalla. barely 200 Indian troops held 2500 P-a-k-i-s and more tank battalions over night. ANYWAYS WE ARE SUPERIOR THAN YOU PIGS.

    4-yes that idiot Nehru went to the UN. we accept it . we dont admire that spineless idiot . he is considered to be a total loser in India.

    conclusion – if Pakistan is safe today inspite of 4 wars against India and if it has retained its Kashmir , then its the indecisive Congress leadership to be blamed. wrong decisions of Congress have saved Pakistan.

    i guess i have answered your question why Kashmir wasnt taken. just read my previous reply carefully.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Pratoush

    1) No one captured Lahore in 1965. This has never happened in history. Wikepdiea is editable…even I can write in Wikepedia…So Dont talk abt Wikepedia..

    2) Nehru was ur PM…Whatever he has made decision…You have to accept him cos he made decisions on behalf of you..

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Shriman Sal, Azhar…

    Hey did you appreciate the poem I wrote on the Championship in terror and herion export Pakistan won hands down… ?

    [Reply]

  • ashu

    Sal,

    Sal,

    Thanks for appreciating my comment.

    You are really free to say what you like/ believe. After all history will always be written and interpreted in many ways, and that diversity of opinion, is what makes history so interesting.

    What I said was India’s stated position and demonstrated by India’s action of getting out of Bangladesh instantly. We will have to agree to disagree :-)

    Regards.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @ all my Pakistani bhaiyas….

    In 1971, the Indian army capured 93,300 Pakistani Prisoners of war. We treated their army men well and fed them. Then sent them back intact.

    The Pakistani army capture only542 INdian POWs.

    But….

    It only sent back 312.

    Rest have either been tortured and killed. Or are still being tortured.

    That is the difference between India and Pakistan….

    [Reply]

  • Rajiv

    Has Mr Sharma quit writing his blogs ?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Sal

    first of all pronounce my name properly you Muslim pig.

    1-if you are not satisfied with the info given in Wikipedia you can just check other sites as well (of course except the P-a-k-i ones). your La W-h-o-r-e was captured by us.

    2- cannot call Nehru’s decision the one made on our behalf. Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel’s warning was taken lightly. there were many other talented and pragmatic leaders eligible to be the prime minister. (including Sardar Patel).

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Paritosh

    1) Y u dont give me a reference and I will check it by myself

    2) Patel was ur interior minister while Nehro was ur PM. However this is not my concern….You have to go back what Nehro did afterall this was ur PM who ruled India more than a decade.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    Nehru doesnt hold any significance because he was a pro -pakistan person just like Mr Vinod Sharma.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    @Paritosh

    Then Y did u make him PM

  • Rajiv

    @Paritosh,

    If Pak army and ISI could not convince Sal, what a sordid state they have reduced Paksiatn to, what are your chances ?

    Leave Sal alone to stew in the Pakistani broth, that Pak mullah-ISI combo has cooked for him.

    [Reply]

    Sal Reply:

    aray bhai I am the ISI and Pak army….

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Makes sense.
    Thats the only employer left in Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Sal

    “aray bhai I am the ISI and Pak army”

    then be ready to get f-u-c-k-e-d

  • Raju Kurien

    Why are we wasting our time talking about Pakistan? Thanks to its army, ISI, mullahs, and inept leadership, its only claim to fame is terrorism. People from all over the world go there for undergraduate , graduate, and PhD studies in terrorism. Finally they are being devoured by these terrorists.

    I would recommend that we abstain from writing any comments on what vinod writes about Pakistan. Pakistan is anon-entity for us, just a border counytry, theer is no benefit in comparing. Of course, we may get one satisfaction that oen country went far ahead starting from the same platform; however, our comparison should be with US, China, japan etc from an economic and science perspective; and US on a democracy/institutions perspective.

    Chodo Pakistan.. boycott vinod’s blog in future. Waste of precious time

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Raju Kurien

    yes indeed this is very true that Pakistan is a worthless nation that doesnt deserve to be compared with India in terms of scientific and economic progress and that India has the potential to get compared with other developed nations.

    however we can atleast consider Pakistan to be a terrorist nation that can become a great hindrance in India’s progress and can destroy our aspirations. the liberal’s argument that we must not focus on Pakistan is b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t . it would be wise indeed if we spend 5.5% of GDP in defence and start developing our indigenous defence capabilities rather than relying on others.

    for Pakistan must not be spared and should be r-a-p-ed by India for its crimes.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Paritosh

    Yes, u r right. They are f–g terrorist mation and we should be alert.. The government there kills its civilians because they are “lesser’ Islams (Ahmadiyyas and other minorities)..the fr–g blasphemy law means anybody can be arrested and jailed if u r not a muslim..banana republic indeed..Let them do waht they want (as longa sno terrorism)..We should fortify pour borders, maintain good defense,m and be ready for a good offence if needed..

    A recent report said they are the fifth worst unstable country in the world!

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    That is why you MF spent 99% of time talking aboput Pakistan. Morons

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    you will automatically get annhilated you pigs

  • http://www.translation.com. ajaazi

    Why are we wasting our time talking about Pakistan? Thanks to its army, ISI, mullahs, and inept leadership, its only claim to fame is terrorism. People from all over the world go there for undergraduate , graduate, and PhD studies in terrorism. Finally they are being devoured by these terrorists.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @all my Pakistani brothers…

    De not proud that you produce the maximum suicide bombers in the world….

    A high GNP of suicide bombers is a sad reflection of Pakistan…. :)

    Be not proud when your jehadis kill Ahemadiyyas and Shias…

    Your jehadis are just plain rabid dogs who need to be exterminated… :)

    Be not proud when your terrorists behead Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

    For your terrorists are just evil deviants and not human beings… :)

    Be not proud when your fanatics kill and convert Christians

    For your fanatics are evill cobras who need to be exterminated.

    Be not proud when you ship heroin and terror to all parts of the globe…

    Dear Pakistani brothers,

    Be only proud that when your country manages to do just one good thing for humanity…

    And that does not seem to be happening…

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ all Indian liberals

    do not be bothered about Pakistanis getting butchered by terrorists and the deplorable condition of Pakistani state. they had asked for a separate nation. it was their choice. let them suffer. as for you liberals ( Arundhati Roy , Vinod Sharma , Khushwant Singh , and those on the blog) please SHUT THE F-U-C-K UP

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    Thanks for deleting my post, Mr. Sharma, and appreciate for showing your true colors

    Some of the idiots can use abusive language and its ok by you.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar (pilla)

    no one’s biggest idiot than you and your p-a-k-i friends

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Paritosh with your comments you are a bigger idiot. Now go back to barking we are listening

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Azhar

    you are the only pig that can bark. everyone knows that only Pakistanis are born pigs. please continue the rant

  • rajiv

    Pak duplicity and Taleban-

    ————————————————–
    From BBC
    —————————————————–
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/10302946.stm

    Pakistani intelligence gives funding, training and sanctuary to the Afghan Taliban on a scale much larger than previously thought, a report says.

    Taliban field commanders interviewed for the report suggested that ISI intelligence agents even attend Taliban supreme council meetings.

    Support for the Afghan Taliban was “official ISI policy”, the London School of Economics (LSE) authors suggest.

    Pakistan’s military denied the claims.

    A spokesman said the allegations were “rubbish” and part of a malicious campaign against the country’s military and security agencies.

    The LSE report comes at the end of one of the deadliest weeks for Nato troops in Afghanistan, with more than 30 soldiers killed.

    ‘Double game’

    Links between the Taliban and Pakistan’s intelligence service have long been suspected, but the report’s author – Harvard analyst Matt Waldman – says there is real evidence of extensive co-operation between the two.

    Continue reading the main story There is thus a strong case that the ISI orchestrates, sustains and shapes the overall insurgent campaign
    Matt Waldman

    Report author
    “This goes far beyond just limited, or occasional support,” he said. “This is very significant levels of support being provided by the ISI.

    “We’re also saying this is official policy of that agency, and we’re saying that it is very extensive. It is both at an operational level, and at a strategic level, right at the senior leadership of the Taliban movement.”

    Mr Waldman spoke to nine Taliban field commanders in Afghanistan earlier this year.

    Some alleged that ISI agents had even attended meetings of the Taliban’s top leadership council, the so-called Quetta shura. They claim that by backing the insurgents Pakistan’s security service is trying to undermine Indian influence in Afghanistan.

    Taliban field commanders were interviewed by the report’s author “These accounts were corroborated by former Taliban ministers, a Western analyst and a senior UN official based in Kabul, who said the Taliban largely depend on funding from the ISI and groups in Gulf countries,” the report said.

    With US troops due to begin leaving next year, Pakistan and other regional players are increasingly seeking ways to assert their influence in Afghanistan, analysts say.

    Pakistan has long been accused of using the Taliban to further its foreign policy interests in the country. The ISI first became involved in funding and training militants in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion in 1979.

    Since 2001, however, it has been a key US ally, receiving billions of dollars in aid in return for helping fight al-Qaeda

    “Pakistan appears to be playing a double-game of astonishing magnitude,” the report says.

    ‘No proof’

    But Islamabad says it is working with its international partners in hunting down the Taliban.

    And the Taliban’s former ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, says there is no proof of a link between the ISI and the Afghan Taliban.

    “I have no proof that Pakistan is supporting the Taliban,” he told the BBC, “or that the ISI is providing money to them… or other support to provide weapons.”

    Even so, Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan is viewed as critical.

    Last week Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh resigned, saying he had become an obstacle to plans to talk to the Taliban.

    Mr Saleh told Reuters news agency a day after quitting that the ISI was “part of the landscape of destruction” in Afghanistan and accused Pakistan of sheltering Taliban leaders in safe houses.

    Pakistan has always denied such claims and points to arrests and military offensives against the militants on its side of the border. Nevertheless, parts of the tribal north-west of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan remain strongholds for the militants.

    The BBC’s Quentin Sommerville in Kabul says there is a growing understanding that military action alone will not be enough to bring peace in Afghanistan.

    “Without a change in Pakistani behaviour it will be difficult if not impossible for international forces and the Afghan government to make progress against the insurgency,” the report concludes.
    Bookmark with

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    one can wonder infact that even long after the war against the Soviets was over , the weapons given to the Talibanis by the US didnt seem to deplete. there’s no suspense that the P-a-k-i-s continued the weapon supply to the Taliban with a hope of creating a vassal state that will feed to Pakistan’s interests.

    as you mentioned, because of Pakistan’s policies , Afghanistan may again go into peril

    [Reply]

    (Dr.) B.N.Anand Reply:

    Yes, Rajiv ji. The LSE report is after all a fact and not a fiction. Sam uncle also knows it well. That is why they are continuing with their drone attacks and Paksitan is simply watching helplessely.
    BNA

    [Reply]

  • Dhiraj

    Punjabi fools and naive pan-Punjab “Punjabiyat” romantics like
    the author of this blog are only expected to be the perennial
    peace-pushers they are, regardless of India’s basic interests.

    Is it not striking and revealing that the fanatical peace-pushers
    are — Kuldip Nayar, Vinod Sharma, Mani Shankar Aiyar,
    Vinod Mehta, Khushwant Singh — all born in Pakistan pre-’47?

    Something to think about.

    Shame on these Punjabis for whom Punjab comes before India.
    Bengalis and Sindhis don’t have the same attitudes, thank God.

    And what’s with this “we’re all the same, yaar” stuff that they keep pushing?

    I wonder if they would say “we’re all the same” about a Tamilian or an Arunachali.

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Dont be misled by a few Punjabis.

    Overwhelming majority of punjabis ( from Arun shourie to Arun Jaitley ) are fiercely anti-Pakistan because they know first hand how depraved that state , based on religious bigotry of Jinnah, is.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    @Rajiv

    The report only proves what I have beenn saying all along.

    That Pakistan needs to create terror and insurgency in Afghanistan to survive; this is its way to get aid from the gullible west and its way of creating a panic situation that the world needs to help Pakistan, otherwise it will blow up along with its nuclear weapons.

    The solution now lies in

    a) Either dismantle Pakistan. The new republices created would have a balance of terror among themselves. The Baluchis and the Mohajirs, The Ahemadiyyas, Shias and hindus, CHristians and Sikhs of Pakistan do deserve freedom

    b) Or have a massive reverse brainwashing campaing in Pakistan whereby we, the democracies of the world manage to convert their fanatics into a more gentle species of humoan beings. The trouble here is that everyone of importance in Pakistan seems to have links with fanatics and Taliban. As we have seen in the case of Hamid Mir and now Asif Zardari.

    I would want the opinion of my Pakistani friends who blog on this site.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Rajiv tum hara bhap cannot dismentle Pakistan. Your step father the Soviets could not do anything in Afghanistan and had to run away with their tail between their legs. Uncle Sam’s struggling and you people are nothing.

    Go back to Barking

    [Reply]

  • rajiv

    There is a lesson here for all countries. Pak is playing a double game here again with USA, while it cointinues to survive on Western aid.

    Duplicity and dishonesty are the twin principles on which the Pak entity operates. Its foolish to expect, Pak will conduct itself with honesty and transparency in its dealings with India, whom it calls its sworn enemy , when its so brazenly dishonest with its friends and allies.

    So why engage with such an entity ? Will you do bisiness with a person whom you know to be an incorrigible thug and vile ? Thats why India should not engage Pak and maintain a distance with it.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Why did undia side with the Soviets when they invaded and were responsible for the death of thosands of Afghan? Because it was in your national interest, right RAjiv baita!

    It is in our interest to play the game accordingly our interest not your, get it baita.

    Now go back to barking

    [Reply]

    Rajiv Reply:

    Pak idocy, has no limits. Indian position during soviet intervention and occupation of Afganistan , was neutral. Ofcourse its difficult to choose between criminal jihadis of the vile Taleban kind and foreign occupation.

    So are **** fools saying Soviet Union needed arms , air-planes from India to occupy Afganistan ?
    Did India send any army to aid soviet occupation ?

    India’s diplomatic position remained that ‘all outside forces should stay out of Afganistan’.
    Thats a perfect position, even today !

    That includes Islamic Jihad bred criminals from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc and includes western forces too.
    Afganistan is a victim of outside intervention and the greatest criminal of it is ofcourse Pakistan, with USSR, USA, and Saudi Arabia playing 2nd, 3rd etc roles.

    The problem is , Pak thuggary is known to Afganistan. Independent polls have shown that Afghans hate Pakistan even more than they do USA, USSR etc ! Pakistan is the most hated country in the Islamic state of Afganistan ! Has the ISI and Pak media told you that ??
    I guess not.

    And which country do Afghan people love most ? India.

    Anyway, I don’t expect Pak criminality to change in anyway, until Pak venal policies finish off Pakistan itself. So keep meddling in Pakistan and increase it ! Maybe you should send your bungling , idiot and criminal forces into Afganistan.

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=220924013521#!/video/video.php?v=220924013521

  • vijay kumar

    Dear Azhar Hussain ji,

    Please take out that hatred from your head and heart!! And start loving humanity and other religions also…. :)

    You may feel that the jehadis and suicide bombers your country produces are sweet sweet children and brave; that when they kill a Shia , a christian a hindu a sikh … they are serving Islam.

    Nothing can be further away from the truth.

    And the truth to a non Pakistani is so obvious. That these indoctrined killers are like rabies infacted dogs who can only cause harm to humanity and now need to be exterminated.

    SO take the hate of your head and try to improve the secular state of Pakistan. Make it more human. Jail and kill your religious militants and corrupt ISI men. Then only will Pakistan be a more desirable state…

    :) :)

    With love…

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    Vijay where did I show my hatred of other religions and love for the killers..Can you identify that so that I can clear some fog in your head.

    [Reply]

  • Azhar Hussain

    As far as the facebook video goes, this only shows you the side you don’t care to see…This is an American singer and true picture of Israeli atrocities is increasing…..You non-muslim just don’t want to see this because of your own hatred. True film of the illegal occupyiers, Vijay when you rob and kill, guess what the other side is coming after you aswell…Better have the balls to stand up…Those Palestinians will never bow down, understand that Vijay

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Dear Azhar hussain ji,

    I have full symapthies for the Palestinians, as I have for the Ahemadiyyas, SIkhs, Shias, Chirstians and Hindus of Pakistan, whose position is worse.

    They are hunted, forced to change their religion and killed and be-headed.

    Let us all do something for their protection also.

    [Reply]

  • Vijay Kumar

    Dear Azhar Hussain hi,

    I have written a small poem for you to dwell and think about.
    —- —- —-

    To all my Pakistani brothers….

    COngratulations !! !! you guys are the Champions…. :)

    From Karachi to Kansas…

    From Lahore to London

    From Margalla Hills to Mumbai sea port

    From NWFP to New York city ….

    YOU guys are the champions….. :) :)

    In TERRORISM !! in KIlling INNOCENTS !! :) :)

    In suicide bombings

    The Leading world exporters of Heroin and opium !!! leading exporter ji leading exporter….

    Wah wah wah !!! ha ha ha :) :)

    what a country… what a people…. :) :)

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    What a childish and self gratifying write up . Baita you are a typical coward who goes off the tangent….Ans my Q, when did I show hatred of other religions and support for killers?

    http://www.persecutionblog.com/2009/02/persecution-of-minorities-in-democratic-india.html

    Keep smiling baita

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    There is a tendency in some sections of India to prove that Jinnah was “secular.”

    Of course he was, considering and comparing him to the current powerful people in Pakistan like Hafeez Saeed and the fanatic mullhas who want to kill or convert the rest of the world.

    But….

    Let us not forget that…

    Jinnah was willing to break up united India, just to attain power.

    And Jinnah ordered troops in Kashmir, even as the country was being Partitioned. Lot of the so called self appointed apologists of Jinnah are not willing to get into this fact.

    Why distort history to prove your point ?

    [Reply]

    Azhar Hussain Reply:

    He was for Indian unity till he saw your inner true colors and we in Pakistan thank him for it….The more you people wine and cry foul, then happier we are here in Pakistan…..We thank Jinnah and above all God that for 60 yrs and hundreds of years to come you and your generation to come will be crying.

    Singh wrote like it is in his book JINNAH and you people could not digest it because you have been fed lies, that is why you morons acted they way you did.

    Vijay Kashmir shows you again that JINNAH was right then and Now

    [Reply]

    Indus Darya Reply:

    pakistan is an historical mistake. It never had nor has any valid basis to exist. Jinnah never spent a minute in jail , he and the Muslim League was loyal to the imperialist masters. History has proved Jinnah wrong and the Congress Party right. That is the reality. pakistan was created to serve imperialist interest and it has been doing that since its creation. Pakistan merits destruction as it is a curse on south asia.

    [Reply]

  • vijay kumar

    Dear Pakistani brother Azhar Hussainji,

    I think you are a victim of the fake history being taught to you in Pakistani history books ! :) :)

    I wish you should wash your heart of all hatred which evil preachers unleas on the poor unsuspecting minds of Pakistani children, youth and adults, converting them into humanity hating fanatics.

    I am writing a poem for you….

    _____________________________—–

    O Pakistani brothers…..

    O Pakistani brothers…..

    be not proud when a fanatic kills a shia….

    because a shia is also a human being…. :)

    O Pakistani brother do not celeberate when your jehadis kill Ahemadiyyas….

    because a Ahmendiyaa too breathes and thinks and is human…..

    O Pakistani brother, do not dance when your fundamantalists behead Sikhs,

    because Sikhs too have a right to live and are kind human beings…

    O Pakistani brothers do not sing with joy when your suicide bombers murder Hindus…

    For HIndus are kind hearted people who believe in co-existence of religions…

    Be not proud when Pakistsni murder, kill, rape and maim in the name of religion….

    When they forcefully exterminate Christians and Parsis….

    When they bomb the rest of the world.

    Be proud only if you do a good deed to people of other religions…..

    Be proud if you beleive that the religious murderers are dogs who need to be exterminated….

    Smile and see the sun and the moon P{akistni brothers….

    The earth belongs to all of us…..

    [Reply]

    komal Reply:

    yeah b proud whn hindus kill innocent muslims …. wow whtta standard :P

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    >For HIndus are kind hearted people who believe in co-existence of religions…

    maybe Hindus should be killed for letting other religions to exists.
    Didn’t muslim god allah say only islam should exist.

    By denying that edict or fatwa, they are against islam.
    if they are against islam, they are blasphemous.

    we all know how blasphemy gets punished in islamic lands..

    [Reply]

  • http://www.tvally.com/member.php?u=9287 tv ally

    In truth, at first i did understand it. But after re-reading I think i understand

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    I see no reason to tell pakistani to behave,we Indians let our country down,by what we have done to India.Are we proud of ourselves?If you think superfecial 9% growth which only makes rich richer,break down of everything worth preserving fallen by way side,be proud,I’m not.Yes Pakistan has not done well either,they failed Mr Jinnah too.!But Indians have so much to right things they should not even worry about Pakistan,not that we do not care,but because we have too much on our own plate.We have no concept what kind uphill climb we have ahead of us,we do not even have any clue,yet we worry about pakistan ,iran,iraq and Afghanistan.May be it is pas time like watching bollywood movie or watching ipl cricket.How callous have we have become and our steep fall!

    [Reply]

    komal Reply:

    v true… india shud not bother abt Pakistan at all … n mind thr own business.. :P

    [Reply]

  • http://www.lovebindingspell.com Loraeroxy

    Hello folks,

    This is a joke that I find hilarious everytime I read:

    A man received a parrot for his birthday. This parrot was fully-grown with a bad attitude and worse vocabulary. Every other word was an expletive. Those that weren’t expletives were, to say the least, extremely rude.
    The man tried hard to change the bird’s attitude and was constantly saying polite words, playing soft music, anything that came to mind.
    Nothing worked. He yelled at the bird, the bird got worse. He went to a voodoo spell caster to cast a [url=http://www.lovebindingspell.com]love spell[/url] on it, with no luck.
    He shook the bird and the bird got more angry and exceedingly rude.
    Finally, in a moment of desperation, he put the parrot in the freezer.
    For a few moments he heard the bird squawking, kicking and screaming and then, suddenly, all was quiet.
    The man was frightened that he might have actually hurt the bird and quickly opened the freezer door. The parrot calmly stepped out onto the man’s extended arm and said: “I’m sorry that I offended you with my language and actions. I ask for your forgiveness. I will try to improve my behavior.”
    The man was astounded at the bird’s change in attitude and was about to ask what changed him when the parrot continued, “…May I ask what the chicken did?”
    :)

    [Reply]

  • http://g6dfs8g7dfgkjhsdf6gs9dfghsdfg.net/blogs.hindustantimes.com/ blogs.hindustantimes.com

    Taliban balkanize jinnah E2 80 99s vision of pakistan.. Not so bad :)

    [Reply]

  • Sohaib

    Why did India train and sponsor LTTE, thus destroying Sri Lanka through a proxy war? Any answers?

    [Reply]

  • http://www.pulnomor.com/ Training Leash

    Glad to find this .More post from you :)

    [Reply]

  • KA

    This article is insightful but didn’t fill the gaps of literature available on the identity construction in Pakistan and India. I would conclude this article as Jinnah was a secular man but gave a birth to a religious country. Religion has completely divided the Pakistani society.

    [Reply]