Taliban balkanize Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan

Sir,no words I have to praise this article.

The man who was instrumental in dividing India on the basis of religion has been proved the biggest fool,the worst fanatic and the most wicked that ever trod here on earth. He offered some a blessed land and some thoughtless Muslims believed him and accepted the offer.And thus the selfish Jinnah’s dream of capturing power came true and there began the miseries of the so called Pakistanis. This country is now just a haunted place.Their chief contribution to the world is in the field of high quality terrorism in the name of religion.They seek happiness only in destruction. They also showed the world how one has to fight against ones own country men. Though some of us in India have also started to imitate them,we can’t rival them since they’re the super powers in this! God only knows if ever this country is going to acquire sanity.

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The politics in our sub-continent that often revolves around identity alone has ruined us in great measure. Vinod, do you think that a different electoral system in the Indian sub-continent would perhaps change the politics of the region for the better?

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I am a Pakistani & I agree to the fact that Jinnah used Religion to create Pakistan. However I am sure his vision for Pakistan was definitely not what it has become today. The Mullah here claim Jinnah as their own and keep on coming up Jinnah’s statement supporting their view. The seculars also have supporting statements of Jinnah. I personally think Jinnah never got enough time to clarify what the country is about. As a result the country’s foundation is week and its become a mess now.

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Historically this article is full of errors and omissions. Taliban or the Jihadists did not exist until 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by Soviet Union that was fully supported by India. It brought in USA and other Western Powers to fuel Islamic Jihad to defeat Soviet Union. The phenomenon of religious Jihad that beset Pakistan/Afghanistan in eighties is the same. Jihadists, Taliban see present day occupiers of Afghanistan no different from Soviet Union. India, Soviet Union, USA are as culpable on Pakistan problems with religious militancy if not more! World must own up to its mistakes in Afghanistan. Why did India support the most brutal invasion of Afghanistan by Soviet Union?
I wish there was a something that Pakistanis could do to stem this path to destruction. I wish Pakistanis become more brave and have more courage to speak up, write about it and come out on the streets to push back the radical and intolerant nature of Taliban’s offensive. They have to be and must contained. They must be turned back. There is no choice. There should not be debate about it. I want Pakistanis to stand up, claim their country, do not let it slip into darkness of religious intolerance. This must be done in every city, every town and every village. That is the only way to push back the forces of intolerance. It is a challenge for the Pakistanis only, I think like this article, India’s role is less than sincere. By writing shallow and historically inaccurate articles they are just there to hurt Pakistan. India is and will never be sincere to Pakistan. India is and remains an eternal enemy of Pakistan. Pakistan must never trust any Indian giving them critical advise on their problems. India’s advise is based on insincerity ill-will.

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How lucky for Bangladeshis? They can thank India , congratulate themselves and praise God for his benevolence. Very soon unless Pakistan learns its lessons minorities will be dividing Pakistan.

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Jinnah was the orignal terrorist. Remember ‘Direct Action Day’ Present day Pakistan is the truest monument to that wicked evil man. Thank God, ( or Allah, if one wishes ) partition saved India from a fate beyond imagining.

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One more thing that Mr Sharma fails to make note of is that the Ahmadiyyas were one of the sects in the forefront for the creation of Pakistan as were the Aga Khanis. All these so called modreates. The monster that they helped create is now coming to devour them. India should firmly stay out of this mess and allow these implacable Hindu haters to slug it out themselves.
Pakistan is one very good reason why India governance should always remain secular where religion should have no place whatsoever.

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Europe separated religion from the state….then only did it move further..pakistan welded religion into state and the consequences are for all to see.

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Whats hilarious is that the Indian perspective on Pak hasnt changed in the 60+ years! You still cant stomach that we exist.

We had to eventually pay for our mistakes of creating the extremist monster that we created.. sure enuff we admit we did.. now we are paying for it… and sure enuff just the fact that we are still there is enough proof that we will survive…

but atleast we have admitted that we have a problem and are facing it… you dont even want to admit that you have a problem in Kashmir and Assam…

so go ahead.. laugh at our misery… we dont expect any better from you anyways!

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Sir,
It is not the time to sling mud on one another. The real problem is that secular minded people don’t come united against the preachers of hate on both sides of the border. Myself having migrated to the farthest country on planet from the subcontinent, I must say that these two countries need to come closer or one day the hatred will wash away every thing on both sides of their common border.
There is nothing which can be a basis for enenimity between these 2 countries. I am not a professor of history, but I think, Mr Jinnah did not want a separate country untill just 2 years before the partition. If I have to blame some one, then Congress party and it’s leaders are a better choice, being more responsible for the partition.
Now it is possible to make this border, a soft border, let there be free movements of people. If Indians and Pakistanis cooperate every where away from the subcontenant, why it becomes imposible in that area.

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WOW – PAKs; always blaming others. “it is never their fault. As you sow so shall you reap”. The Pakis do not seem to be getting that. Ironically they admit their hypocrissy – i.e. Ahamadiyas are not Muslims, they cannot pray like muslims, they cannot call their house of prayers mosques – what a bunch of idiots – and of course it is the fault of USA, India, Russia- everybody is to be blamed but themselves – these idiots will never learn. Trustless lieing freeks- destined to blow themselves up – blame others.

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Some of the commentators ,on Vinod Sharma’s article, like their fellow Pakistanis are in denial.Pak is lost to the Talibs & to many more who think like the Talib fanatics.What hope is there for a country like Pakistan that murders it’s fellow Pakistani Muslims-the most civilised Muslims-the Ahmadiyas?A country born out of hatred with destroy itself in hatred.

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Talibanisation is not by product of Pakistan movement instead it is a by product of a political and security threat which Pakistan faced in late 70s due to Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan was not able to afford a direct war against Russia but also did not want Russia to be sitting permanently on its borders. The establishment of that time decided to use religion as a tool to fight a proxy war against Russians. They gave lot of money to Mullahs to brainwash young innocent people to fight against Russians on the name of religion. Lot of other countries supported that as well. Whole that fight against Russians were nothing to do with religion as the people who were brainwashing innocent young students to fight for religion, their own sons and daughters were studying in foreign universities for better future.
So it is absolutely wrong to say that current Talibanisation problem of Pakistan is due to Pakistan’s independence movement. This is again a bad effort by Indian media to put question mark on the creation of Pakistan.
On the other hand, by looking at Pakistan’s current problem, even if we assume that Jinnah was wrong in creating Pakistan, than Gandhi and Nehru were also not right either. Look at current problems of India, Naxals controls around 60% of India, separatist movements like Khalistan, Aasam, Manipur, Tripura and Kashmir are there well. On top of it, your internal divisions like south indians and north indias, maharashterians, tamils and telugus, gujrati and punjabis etc etc. If India is one nation than what are these divisions? If there is one India why there is a movement to through non maharashtrians out of maharashter etc etc. Is this not failure of Gandi and Nehru in terms of united India and one Indian nation?

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Pakistan is a failed state and the exporter of global terrorism. Their belligerent nature has already caused them to lose about half of their territory, and is now gnawing at what they have left.

Supporters of Pakistan will forever point fingers at others instead of minding their own house. They’ll say, Taliban was created because of blah-blah – a childish excuse like the “he made me do it” kind of line used by kindergarteners. They will then point at the flaws of other countries – which while there, don’t excuse the cause of why Pakistan is such a basket case.

What I am greatly heartened by, however, is the decoupling of India and Pakistan – both in India and abroad. The “****” term used to be applied to Indians as well – who unfortunately look similar to the Pakis. Now, more and more, Indians are known for their engineering and mathematical skills. India herself obsesses less about Pakistan, and more about how it take a more useful place in broader world matters. India should be glad that the happy accident which put most of the nutcases outside its borders. Jinnah’s brand of pseudo-secularism that created Pakistan was a gift to India.

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Much of what author says is pretty close to the mark. The genesis of present day crisis lies in the fact that pakistan was made on a divisive ,confrontationist , militant ideology. If muslims can not and will not live with hindus than other ethnic / religious groups are also anthema to them. Despite what our Pakistani friends say , it was neither US nor USSR , nor India that asked them to declare Ahmadiya as “Kafir”. This was done as the article says by Z A bhutto. Pakistan is based on excluding non muslims , so that’ s happpening !T oday it is Ahmadiys, tommorow it could be shia and than some other group. If anyone cares to remember even Bengali’s were declared ‘lesser Muslims’ , before they were put to sword in ‘71.

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Pakistan..
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I have not seen a more confused citizenry, than that of Pakistan.
60 years of unbridled state propoganda, has left majority of its population clueless.

Is army of Pakistan the hero or Villian ?
Is ISI protecting the state or a vicious disease afflicting Pakistan and subverting the state ?
Is Musharraf a hero or just anathor of the army dictators that have occupied Pakistan ?
Is Taleban the great Muslim patriots, who defeated super powers or a political ideology that uses violence and has no place in democracy ?
Is Lashker-E-Toiba militants, allies in the Pak quest to win Kashmir, protected treasures of the state of Pakistan or militants in the business of terrorism ?

The list is endless.

All Pakistanis, of course want a strong Pakistan.
But what does strong Pakistan look like ??

Here I will offer my perspective.

1. A strong Pakistan will be democratic and the army subservient to the peoples representatives, as in all democracies.
2. The state will be able to pay its dues. Pakistan government, is financially bankrupt since 2001.
Its IMF loans, writing off of loans by WB, IMF, and generous US and international aid has kept it going. Sooner or later, it will have to deal with the wide disparity between what govt spends and wbhat it can afford.
3. A strong Pakistan, will not be engaged in lieful propoganda against its neighbours .
It will not see a Hindu-Zionist-American conspiracy in all that ails it.
4. A strong Pakistan will not spend the excessive amount of its GDP on army but will spend on education , healthcare etc.
5. A strong Pakistan will not have a state religion or atleast the state will acknowledge that for the state, all religions have same respect and status.

What are the chances of any of this happening ??

As of now, Zero or non-existant.
Reasons.

1. As the independent UN commission , investigating Benazir Bhutto murder pointed out that in Pakistan its not the civilian government that matters. Its the “Establishment”, as defined by the UN report as its army and the intelligence services like ISI, military intelligence , who permeate and control all aspects of Pak bureaucracy and politics. The UN report found that the police was scared to follow the leads in Benazir murder, fearing that it would expose ISI.

ISI and army, will not voluntarily give up the position of power and pre-eminence that they have institutionalized in Pakistan.
A very large percentage of Pak upper middle class is employed in the army and its intelligence services.
The intelligence services in turn cultivate and control a significant portion of the media.
So chances of democracy in Pakistan, where the army and ISI take orders from the civilian leadership are bleak.

2. The state of Pakistan can be solvent, if it collects more taxes than it does now. But the culture of tax evation and corruption is more deep rooted in Pak , than is rest of South Asia. With no or even more weakening rule of law, chances of the state collecting its taxes are not bright.
Insolvency will happen, as and when USA/IMF/WB decides.

3. The propoganda against India, will not cease as long as the army and ISI maintain its supremacy. The militancy problem of Pakistan is a direct product of Pak’s own propoganda against India and the army’s need to have an enemy to justify itself.
India has not occupied any part of Bangladesh or Nepal or Sri Lanka etc or attacked them.
India is a status quo power, happy with its current borders.
No solution to Kashmir will happen, as long as the propoganda persists.
India is not seeking to get more of territory from under Pak control. Its Pakistan, which has been unsuccessfully trying to change the status quo since 1947, with disastorous consequences for itself. The state will not be able to change its India policy as long as it maintains the propoganda against India.

4. Army will not volutarily give up the large share of national resources that it devours for itself.
The civil society in Pakistan is weak and too compromised to rectify the situation.
As long as the people see India as a bigger threat than the current army/ISI establsihment, the situation will not change.

5. Finally, it was Jinnah who put the last nail in Pakistan’s chances of establsihing a modern, secular state by making religion the primary objective of organizing the state. How do you now convince the right wing that Jinnah was wrong because the rhetoric of ‘a state for the Muslims of the subcontinent’ , is exclusionary in its very definition. The demagougic propoganda
against Hindus and others will not be easy to reverse and 60 years of propoganda has written that into Pakistan’s DNA today.

So I see Pakistan today, as a patient in ICU , with multiple organ failure , attended to by a quack.

India’s misfortune is that in Pakistan it has a stupid adversary and neighbour. If Pakistan was smart, then a mutually beneficial deal and arrangement can be struck. But there is no solution for an idiotic , un-intelligent adversary.

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Hi Azhar Hussain and others !! There is no point blaming each other (India and pakistan). Mind you this is an article written by an individual and by no means represent the view of the majority in India. But still you have right to pen down your views. Yes we have Maosit problem and i knew the problem was intensified by the wrong policies of the GOVT and its corruption. Pakistan also has its own problem like my friend from krachi told me he is scared to go to lahore and further north. Even i am scared to go to kashmir. We all have our own problems. The division of India was good or bad? I dont know but certainly lot of innocents were killed because of this. What has happened has happened now its up to the people of India and pakistan where they want to go further or backward.
These politicans and the controlled media often present the wrong picture about pakistan and vice versa just for their politcal gains. Yes Fundamentalists are a problem in Pakistan and Moasit in India and both have to overcome this if they have to go ahead otherwise both will be further divided into small states.

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The tragedy of India/Pakistan lies in the conflict between Jinnah and Nehru each aspiring to be the prime minister of independent India. Both were educated abroad and had their own focus on what they wanted for themselves from history. While the British had the policy of divide and rule our politicians perfected it for their own benefit. Culturally Hindus,Muslims and other communities had their own customs but were still Indians. Jinnah shunned in his objectives got Pakistan and Nehru became PM of India. Nehru/Gandhi dynasty still has its firm grip on power in India for over 60 years. It perpetuates itself in a democracy where no one else except those nominated by them can hold a position of power. JInnah would be turning in his grave thinking of the present state of the country he created. All this unending drama and struggle for power by these two individuals have sacrified millions of innocent lives, people who could have been content with earning a living more than anything else. Sadly the serial continues !

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Ahmadiyyas, who are the followers of Mirza Gulam Ahmed are non Muslims. PERIOD. In Islam. there is no prophet after Prophet Muhammad ,peace and blessing upon him. Read religion of Islam in Wikipedia- it is very simply explained there.

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After reading all the comments from Pakistan, I can sum up in one sentence.
Blame India, Blame US, Blame Soviet Union,Blame Afghanistan.
Let me introduce you guys to a new word, which might be foreign to you.
RESPONSIBILITY
I don’t expect you to understand that

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Pakistan, no doubt is a doomed nation, (Pakistani Muslims) like it or not. The curse, under which this country is, primarily is, because of its very warped and twisted doctrines of faith and social justice and above all, the twisted mentality of its people. Pakistanis can shout slogans against Face Book, against Israel, against India against Christians, but have no guts to look at their own self. We have just heard today that a group of zealous Muslims youth of Lahore, have created their own Islamic Face Book, Well done guys. I imagine, soon you will have to create an Islamic Internet, an Islamic county that shares no sky, no air, weather or climate; no firmament and no boarders with any other country; an Islamic food industry, with only halal foods and Islamic channels that only have your hate spewing TV anchors, wearing western dresses and using the technology of the kafirs. The problem with Pakistanis is, they are a nation with completely twisted mentality and even worse, a twisted and utterly perverted world view, from religion to all social and political perspectives. There is just no hope, with this nation. Their ultimate pride, Nimaz (prayers) fasting (only as token of hypocritical practices, without the real essence of genuine spirituality) Above all, a wild goose chase for the hoors, is all that is driving these so called jihadis, with applauds from men like Imran Khan and hosts of others with likes of him. Islam is religion of peace, tolerance. Wonder how long will it take you to prove it. Surely, actions speak louder than words. Cut yourselves from the rest of the world and go back to the stone age and wallow in all the primitive way of life. Why are you making hell of the lives of the people who would like to live in peace and harmony with all others around them.

A Tail Piece

The Pakistanis loath the word “Indians” and “India” so much back in the land of the pure, more than often becomes a defense shield to hide behind outside Pakistan. I live abroad and know that some Muslims run restaurant with Indian names, making every effort to hide their true identity and nationality. Back home they are proud Muslims and proud Pakistanis, abroad, quite humble and apologetic. The story doesn’t end here, some would go to the extent of identifying themselves as Christians on their passports, to ease their immigration predicaments at the airports and to find jobs and even hook a partner.
Well done Pakistanis, Proud to be a Pakistani. And what more, if you have never traveled out of Pakistan, you have no idea what it means to be a Pakistani out of the “holy land”.
Sorry, Indian friends for using and also misusing your ID Cards.

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The difference between Pakistan and India is best highlighted by the exchange between Rajiv and {Naveed and Azhar}. Rajiv is offering rational solution to problems. Naveed and Azhar’s hallucinations defy any rational interpretation.

The mental suffering of Pakistanis is almost pitiful – we are after all the same people. It is just that 63 years of trauma have made almost all Pakistanis one dimensional.

Ghalib-e-khasta ke be-gair kaun-se kaam band hein
roye zar-zar kya, ke jiye hai hai kyon.

I think India should be generous and assist the Pakistan nation commit collective suicide.

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Pakistan is now on the map as an independent democratic country. By the grace of God it will emerge a strong country. It is not hidden than most of Pakistan problems are coming from India. Have India been fair to Pakistan, the situation should have been totally different. The soonest the US forces leave Afghanistan, Pakistanis will be back to the normal. Pakistan presence turmoil is mainly due to its support to Afghans and USA against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. And by the way the change in India is largely due to USA support to India against China. It is clear to all Indians.

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May 31, 2001
Pakistan is a retarded child struck by hydrophobia. I just wonder how some Muslims can still think that what is happenning in pakistan is normal .

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Well, guys, we all should know by now that Pakistan will never change. For last sixty years, they have been given dose of poison which is now making everybody vomit. In other words, Pakistanis are repeating lie after lie to make it a truth. Now, all those lies are backfiring. As for Jinnah, everybody know, he wanted Pakistan for power. He himself started dictatorship. First he became Governer-general of Pakistan. Then in order to fortify his power, he himself became speaker of Pakistan Constituent Assembly by forcefully removing hindu Jogindar Nath Mandal as Speaker of Constituent Assembly. This act alone shows how much respect had for democracy.

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Reading all the comments above, I feel, that we indians and pakistanis are living in self made cocoons, and never evern try to come out of it, blindly living in the world of oblivion. For each of us, problems of others seem bigger. Rajiv posted some intersesting thoughts, on nokhali and causes and aftermath of partition. This is true, Muslim League was behind calcutta riots and noakhali riots. But we forget the fact that Jinnah, though very ambitious, was part of congress, very close to people like Gokhale and Dadabhai Nauroji. Why did het get disillusioned with congress politics? Was “khilafat movement” a smart/justified strategy by congress? Wasn’t cngress bringing religion into politics hence? Jinnah opposed khilafat, he was a constitutionalist and a brilliant barrister first and foremost and he opposed gandhi’s ways of opposing british government(satyagraha, hartaal). When no congress leader came out to support bhagat singh , jinnah gave a voice of support. But alas, our history doesn’t teach us all this. Jinnah was given same step treatment as was given to others like bose by congress. Bose chose a different path, jinnah chose a different one. Post 1939 Muslim’s debacle in provinicial elections, Jinnah was a changed man for worse. People close to him , like his personal secretary left him…

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Its pretty scary to read about how the junta of Pakistan drift towards pointing out situations in India, while keeping mum on issues that plague and burn their own country.

Scary, ‘cuz they as a people, still don’t seem to have mustered guts to talk out as one against the Taliban, or against the army rule, or against their own leaders. Scary, ‘cuz they’re still a state steeped in religion, and cannot really muster enough courage to separate Islam from democracy, or even dare look within God’s own words in Koran for democracy.

I have lots of Pakistani friends, most of them confess that they’d rather not speak out loud, for fear that they might be targeted in the next Fanatic attack.

And that’s the truth about Pakistan. The people there are kept superbly under the thumb using a perfect blend of religious supremacy fundas, fear factors of India being bent on invading and subjugating them (SIC !!) and skewed views on their own religions, that keep changing to suit every Mullah who preaches.

I wish the people of Pakistan the best in coming out of this mess. They alone can do it.

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There is only one way the Government of Pakistan should react to the terrorist attacks on the Ahmadiyya Muslim Mosques in Lahore: cancel all the idiotic “Marshall Law Regulations” by Zia ul Haque and also Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s constitutional amendment declaring members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat as ‘non-Muslim for the purpose of the constitution’. By not having the courage to remove those regulations the Government is siding with the Taliban. It is about time to show some courage.

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Well analysed the cause of partion and rightly said that Jina was ireligious and took muslim identity to fight congress and gandhi took Hindu identity to bring the masses in mainstream to fight british.this was the irony of time but created misunderstnding in mind of jinah .Yes Nehru and patel agreed for partition as the last refuge seeing the communal disharmony at the time and Naokhali massacre was the worst .This is the ***** fate of subcontinent and Lamho Ne Khata ki Sadio ne Saja Payi

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A simple litmus test….
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There is a simple, yet very accurate litmus test, about how tolerant and pluralistic a society is.

If the population of minorities is staying stable or increasing, you can safely conclude that the
minorities are safe in that state.

No one wants to live in a state where his life and property are not safe. I would not live in USA, if my life and property was not safe. The fact that % of minority population is increasing here is a testimony to the fact that the state and society here is tolerant.
Same for India.

Everywhere in the world, where any minority is ill treated, suppressed by the state , there percentage of the populatipon goes dowm. The minorities, simply move away to places where there life and property are secure.

1. Hitlers Germany, Jews moved away
2. Tibet, Tibettans moved away, Han Chinese increased in % of Tibet population
3. Pakistan, Hindus fled or converted to protect there lives and property at a unprecedented rate.
I must add, even Aurangzeb’s brutalities ( Bye the way, Aurangzeb is regardded as a Hero in Pak history ! ) did not force Hindus living in territories of Punjab for thousands of years to flee.
But Jinnah’s religion based politics succeeded , where Aurangzeb failed..
4. Indian Kashmir, Hindus moved away and in just 10 years beginning 1986, the population of Hindus in the valley, came down from more than 10-15% to less than 1 %.
They moved to JAMMU or elsewhere in India.
5. SriLanka, % population of Hindu Tamils has decreased

In fact, the reduction of minorities in Pakistan, is almost at a rate unmatched in history, with few parallels.

No Pakistani, should ever dare to compare, India and Pakistan’s treatment of minorities.
If minorities in India were not safe, they would have moved away, just as minorities in Pakistan, Afganistan did. In fact the opposite has happened in India. The minority population has increased, as a % of the population.
That is the greatest testimony to Indian states tolerance and protection of its minorities. Its not a favour that India does but its a matter of pride that the state seeks to provide equal protection to all its citizens.

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B Raman, has a solution to the Pakistan “Problem”
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From Outlook
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265644

The dilemma posed by Pakistan to US policy-makers and opinion-moulders is reflected in an editorial titled “Dealing With Pakistan” published by the New York Times of May 28,2010.

Terrorists are the main foreign exchange earners of Pakistan. The more the terrorists operating from its soil, the more the aid from the West to deal with them. The more the aid from the West, the more the terrorists on its soil.

The Pakistani leaders–military and political– feel that as the main source of threat to the security of the US and other countries of the West, the terrorists on its soil have brought for it a strategic importance and attention which it would not have otherwise secured.

When Pakistan was born in 1947, it had a two-commodity economy– cotton and cotton-based textiles and leather goods. It continues to have a two-commodity economy. It has not been able to diversify it. In the past, what it earned from the export of these two commodities was sufficient to keep it going and to meet its imports bill. Today, it is not.

Today, it needs a substantial extra source of income to be able to meet its imports bill and service its external debt. In the absence of any significant economic development, it is dependent on assistance from the West–mainly from the US– to keep the economy and the state going and to avoid bankruptcy.

During the cold war, its willingness to let its territory be used by the US for its campaign against the erstwhile USSR brought it the required aid flow from the US. The end of the cold war saw its importance in the eyes of the US decline. This was accompanied by a decrease in cash flow.

Pakistan’s value as the surrogate of the West in its campaign against the USSR was replaced by the spectre of its becoming the main source of threat to the security of the US and other Western countries from the terrorists operating from its soil. The cash flow was resumed and it kept increasing–this time not for assisting the US in fighting against the USSR, but for its supposedly collaborating with the US in its efforts to contain and neutralize terrorism originating from its soil.

A two-pronged policy of collaboration became its new strategic weapon– seeming collaboration with the US against the terrorists in return for the cash flow and collaboration with the terrorists against the US for keeping the US fears of a terrorist attack on the US homeland alive and for preventing any threat to its own security from the terrorists.

If terrorism emanating from the Pakistani soil dries up, its importance in the eyes of the US will again decline just as it happened when the threat from the USSR ended. It is in its interest to keep terrorism alive so that the fears of the US remain alive and money continues to flow from the US for keeping the terrorists under control.

The US finds itself in a thankless situation. The more the aid it gives to Pakistan to deal with the terrorists, the more the incentive for Pakistan to keep the terrorists alive and active to keep alive the fears of the US. If it reduces its aid to Pakistan, there is a danger of Pakistan not doing even what it is doing now to deal with the terrorists.

The only way the US can get out of this vicious circle is by taking in its own hands the responsibility for destroying the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistani territory instead of depending on Pakistan for this.

This policy has many risks:

An increase in anti-Americanism in Pakistan and a consequent rise in the flow of volunteers to the terrorist organizations.
An increase in the influence of Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan.
A spell of political instability in Pakistan with a further weakening of the mainstream political elements.
The emergence of another Afghanistan, which cannot be easily brought under control.
One way of avoiding a risky direct role by the US will be by assisting elements in Pakistan such as the Balochs, the Sindhis and the Mohajirs, which have been unhappy over the state of affairs in the country and over the increase in the activities of the fundamentalists and other Talibanised jihadis, to achieve their political objectives — whether those objectives are independence or autonomy.

Terrorism is unlikely to end in Pakistan as it is constituted today. A Pakistan reduced to its fundamentalist Punjabi core surrounded by non-fundamentalist liberal Islamic states of different ethnic origin may not be able to exploit the terrorist weapon in the same way as the present-day Pakistan has been doing.

Pakistan of the 1971 vintage is becoming an increasing threat to the homeland security of many nations of the world–in the West as well as the East, in the Ummah as well as in the non-Islamic world. One has to work for a reduced Pakistan to make this threat manageable and ultimately eliminate it.

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B. Raman is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Associate of the Chennai Centre For China Studies.

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Who the hell you are to comment on Pakistan and Jinnah like that?
Do you know about your own country?
India is so stupid that their leaders are supporting America against Pakistan. And they donot know that America is using them,!!!

. Vijay Rajput says:
October 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pm We Indian know him very well admirable person
Gandhi said 100 Gandhi = 1 Jinnah

The truth is that you yourself are TERRORISTS!!
You are the ones who finance them to destroy us because you cannot digest PAKISTAN’S SUCCESS!! You are afraid of MUSLIMS.. And you think that weakening them will help you!!

But you are wrong! You donot have any idea of our strength!!
When we rise, we can change the entire course of human history!!

Don’t you remember your defeat in 1965?
When you cowardly attacked us at night?
Ha!! That shows your courage!!
Loser Nation!!

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The logic of “Bold Defender”, is pretty much what I read in http://www.nation.com.pk, everyday.

He is not a lunatic , but the “establishment opinion” in Pakistan.

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Jinah was the worst one among the Paksitanis leaders. It is time to divide Pakistan, and eliminate its hated ideology for once and forever. We cannot live like Pakistanis in this world. It is time to make Pakistanis understand that you cannot export terror in order to survive. India should take over these unleashed Pakistani dogs, and Afghans should take back their own lands, so we can live in harmoney, peace and upto international standards of the time. Well writen!

[Reply]

Pakistan is part of India. Soon or later India has every right to take it back!

[Reply]

@Sal,
Did you get your education and facts at a league madrassa ?? If this is how some Pakistanis think, no wonder there country is reduced by 1/2 to a begging entity.

In the 1945-46 elections, sure Muslime league won the Muslim vote ( winning 86% of Muslim reserved seats ). However, India is larger than just Muslim seats !!! Did the madrassa teach you that ?
Congress won overwhelmingly the 1945-45 elctions on the all-India basis.

Here is the full result . It includes all seats :
“Of the total votes cast in all the (General, Muslim and Special) constituencies, the Congress secured 62 percent, the League 24 per cent, minor Muslim parties 2.5 per cent and the Unionists 2 per cent.”

So , thats how referendum is done. All people vote and the winner was Congress with 62% of all seats, that includes Muslim league won seats. Thats how referendum is done in any democracy.

Anyway, forget 1947. Just look at what has happened to Pakistan since 1947 , fueled by bigotry.
Jinnah’s politics got rid of the Hindus but then what happened ??

[Reply]

——————————————-
Jinnah, Pakistan and its lessons..
————————————————————–
Pakistan was the best thing that happened to India.

Nehru and Patel , particularly following the Jinnah inspired 1946 brutal riots of Bengal, had understood that the religion based politics that Jinnah had embraced, was a recipe for disaster.

Now if only Pakistan will stay away and keep its Kasavs , India has no business with Pakistan.
India can concentrate on building a democractic, pluralistic society for all its citizens.

However, Pakistan is a good subject of history to see how religion based politics can destroy nations. It has lessons for all.

1. Jinnah wanted ‘homeland for Muslims’.

So what was going to happen to millions of Hindus and Sikhs, in those territories ?

By Jinnah’s logic, those territories were no longer the homeland of millions of Hindus and Sikhs, that were sons of the soil, even before the invaders from the west .
90% or more of Pak Muslims are descendents of Hindus. But once you subscribe to the logic of the barbarians, you disown your heritage first.

Hindus and Sikhs, left Jinnah’s homeland, as it now had no place for them and there motherland of thousands of years , had turn into ‘alien land’. That was one of the most tragic chapters of the subcontinent history, spanning thousands of years. Even the intolerant, repressive Aurangzeb, whom Pakistan has embraced as a **** Hero, could not do so !!!

Okay, so now Jinnah’s Pakistan got rid of Hindus and Sikhs. Good job, Jinnah. Now what ?

2. Pakistan, now got down to the business of defining who is a Muslim !!!
After all, this was “Muslim Homeland’.
Its a circus there. I dont know of countries that have laws to define who is christian, Hindu, Sikh, muslim etc. If you claim to be a christian , you are christian. If you claim to be a Hindu, you are Hindu. Thats personal business. Thats how the civilized world operates.

However, the land of the pure clowns, got down to the business of a state approved definition of Muslims.
The first community to be declared non-Muslim , were the hapless Ahmedias. An Ahmedi can go to prison in Pakistan for saying that he is a Muslim ! There are many other restrictions. Many have fled the land of the pure to UK, USA, India etc. About 3-4 miilion of them still live there in perpetual fear.
I am sure , Pakistani government will take care of the remaining and eliminate them.

3. Hindus/Sikhs are gone. Ahmedias will be gone.
After that what ?

4. The militant Sunni organizations, the crown jewels of the land of the pure , have already declared the Shias heretics. Pakistan has lot of work to do to take care of the Shians that make 15-20% of Pakistan.

Finally, it will be different sects of Sunnis fighting each other, each claiming to be more pure that the other. It’s a fignt to find the purest of the pure, in the land of the pure !!
Religious extrimism or religion ispired idiocy has no limits and Pakistan is a good example to teach that.

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Listen guys writing on the wall in 1947 was that we Muslims want a independent nation and that writing is still on the wall, We are still happy with our country. As far as present situation goes there are multiple factors that are dictating terrorism in Pakistan. Uncle Sam; Russia Mossad and you people are also involved. Yes our inept leaders have played a major role in this mess. But as far as Pakistan, no matter what you idiots in this forum say and your wishfull thinking, we will come out stronger.

Now go back to idiots discussion

[Reply]

Dear Vinod sharma ji

I quote from your blog

“To my mind, this problem of religious differences——————–that has nothing to do with the business of the state”
That is what Mr. Jinnah had said in his speech to its constituent assembly in 1947. If I correctly recall, Mr. L.K. Advani had also quoted the same speech in Pakistan while visiting Pakistan to impress upon the people of Pakistan that to-day’s Pakistan has not lived to the secular vision of Mr. Jinnah as per this speech. See what happened to Mr. Advani when he returned back. The media and his party raised so much hue and cry as if Mr. Advani had certified Mr. Jinnah to be secular. But instead he had only quoted Mr. Jinnah which was never insisted by the media. He had to resign as party president and so much contempt was heaped on him by everyone here for ‘calling’ Mr. Jinnah a secular. Infact he was citing a quote from his speech.
Now you also quote the same speech of Mr. Jinnah to stress that Talibans have balkanised Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan.
It is an irony that when Mr. advani quotes this speech, different meanings are derived. But when you quote the same speech, there is no problem.
Regards
BNA

[Reply]

I ask a question,
So pre 1940 there was no need for pakistan, correct? Atleast there was no legitimate movement, motive etc., right? If you ask your forefathers , they were not anti indians, so what happened during that period? When we say movement, how many people went to jail? Forget people, how many Muslim League leaders went to jail?

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Mr Sharma wrote
“…Jinnah was by instinct a secular person whose politics turned sectarian.
”

Why does anyone care what Jinnah was in his personal life ??
If his personal view on religion and his personal life style and public politics differed, it only further shows what a duplicitous person Jinnah was.

His politics , in 1940-47 period, was clearly sectarian, communal leading to the death of millions , starting with the blood shed that his Muslim league designed with the 1946 Calcutta riots.

He is one of the greatest criminals of history, whose action and policies led to mass murder and carnage, along with the likes of Hitler and Stalin. In his murderous frenzy before 1946 riots he is quoted “I will have India divided or have it destroyed’.

Nothing good could possibly come out of a state based on such sectarian and communal principles of Jinnah and Pakistan is proof positive of that.

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Dear Vinod ji,
Your article has generated some critical, unprecedented debate. Honestly I do not buy the argument that Jinnah was an intrinsic secularist for a simple reason that a secularist would not dare divide the country on purely religious lines what ever may come. I am suspect of the intent more than the act. History has a knack of judging people and Jinnah hasn’t score highly on the secular front. Having said this, I consider him a shrewd politician who could manipulate himself to power using religious sentiments of a community (no wonder the likes of Advani adore him!!!)
The other interesting thing which this article has revealed was the overhelming response (and spite) from across the fence. It just goes on to show the legacy left behind by Jinnah (sort of vindicates what I said above). Of course we cannot generalise but this is indeed the lunatic fringe of the Pakistani society which is blind to rationality and reasoning. So if we have Rajeev then they too have a Sal and a Bold Defender….there is no dearth on both sides. What gives me hope is that there are likes of Usman sahib in Pakistan and this is heartening for us – we still have someone to answer the call bell at the door…………..just like you answering it all the time on this side!
Truly,
Dr.Shah Alam Khan
AIIMS, New Delhi
INDIA
Blog: http://www.indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

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Its seems most of you guys need to read what Jinnah said at that time, read JINNAH by Jashwit Singh, he is still an Indian. But you know how people reacted to him writing God for Bid something positive. Thats the level of indolerance you people have. You people are like the Israelis, they can kill thousands, but God for Bid anyone show them the mirror, they like you people start talking about democarcy; freedom of speech and secularism.

As far as Pakistan at present goes, there are multiply factors contributing to this mess we have in Pakistan. Most of the contribution comes from our won inept leadership. We are reaping the fruits of Zia Ul Haq’s rule, but we will recover.

In the mean time look out for the pigeons outside

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I am really enjoying this debate.
This should be eye-opener for Indians who want Bhai-Bhai relationship with cousins of Taliban (Pakis). These pakistanis can’t think beyond hindu, India, Bania etc. Thankfully this is Indian blog, else you will be called Cow Piss drinker, Bhangi etc.

for more abuses pakistani style go to-
pakistanidefenceforum.com discussion forum.

Logging out…

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If you hear Paskistanis, there logic is something like

All humans are sinners.
Gandhi was human, so he is a sinner.
Pak terrorists are also humans, so they are also sinners.
India is also bad. Riots happen in India also.

Have they bothered to see , how Pak and India compare today ?

Pak’s citizens are scared to admit they are Pakistanis abroad.
There government begs for money around the world.

Given the low IQ level of Pak debate, what they don’t undrstand is that while bad things happen in all countries, its in Pakistan that the state sponsors terrorism and all other evel. In India, the state prosecutes them,

Maoist or rioters from Gujrat to Kashmir, are prosecuted by the state.

In Pakistan, the criminals from Kasav to Hafiz Saeed to Taleban are a product of the state.

Pakistani Jihadi criminal terror is not a automatic product of pakistani people, but a DELIBERATE product of the state. Nothing is changing there. In fact , the defenders like Sal, Pak defender are putting the last nails on the coffin of Pakistan. India should just stand aloof and watch.

Reagrding so called plesbicite in Kashmir, Nehru made an error and India corrected itself.
After seeing how Jinnah’s Pakistan eliminated minorities, no sane government can agree to civil procedures.

Even as per the NON-MANDATORY UN resolution, once Pakistan vacated PoK, vacates Gilgit, vacates Baltistan, removes all the Pakistani punjabis and others from the soil of PoK and restores the demographic composition of Pok, as it existed in 1947, including restoring the Hindus, India can think about plesbicite.
Its a NON-MANDATORY and Un-enforceable UN resolution anyway.

The entire PoK has to be handed over to India first. Thats what the UN said , then it said India can hold plesbicite, that too the resolution was not enforceable by UN.

Anyway, agreeing to un-enforceable UN resolution, was a error because Pak is a minority-killing criminal party. So Nehru, corrected his error, as soon as he could, after seeing how Pak eliminated Hindus after 1947.

Bye the way, the other pre-requisite is, plesbicite can only be held , when the other party has demonstrated that it has not killed and eliminated minorities. How will Pakistan fix its criminal hisrtory of last 60 years ??

Will just shouting here and defending the acts of a criminal state , change the image and history of Pakistan ?

[Reply]

———————————————————–
Answers
———————————————————–

When ever, Pakistanis are cornered and do not have any answer to the pathetic state, they find there country in, they think they can excuse there sordid state, and solve all there problems , by talking about

1. Plesbicite in Kashmir
2. Muslims in India

Unfortunately, they can shout but cannot hide !

So here are the answers, not to be found in any madrassa of Pakistan
.
———–
Kashmir
———–

1. Kashmir joined India legally. All of it. The king of Kashmir signed the instrument of assession.
Even the most popular leader of Kashmir, then leader of Kashmir national conference, Sheikh Abdullah, chose India over the rampaging tribals and the Pak army-men that had invaded J&K.
Later, even the J&K assembly, ratified the accession.
The only legal issue is the quantum of autonomy and nothing else. Case closed.

Regarding UN, it had passed a resolution under its ‘NON-ENFORCEABLE’ chapter, asking for plesbicite. UN resolutions , passed under NON-MANDATORY and NON-ENFORCEABLE chapters, are just that. There implementation depends on the goodwill and mercy of the states involved. Pak exhausted all good will when it eliminated its minorities and forced virtually all Hindus out . It has since constitutionalized discrimination.

The resolution itself, had many preconditions, including Pakistan vacating Gilgit, Baltistan, PoK and restoring the demographic composition to 1947, Pak NEVER met its obligations.
The first step is restoring all of PoK to Indian control and restoring its demographic composition.

However, the demographic composition of PoK, had already under-gone a sea change because of mass murder by Jinnah’s Muslim league and state sponsored tribals. So plesbicite was a non-starter, like a still-born child or Pakistan.

Nehru, a human, made a momentary mistake on accepting it. He corrected it later as soon as he could and even the UN now accepts that events of history have consigned those meaningless un-enforceable, non-mandatory resolutions, to the dustbin of history.

India’s legal case is based on the legal instrument of assesion. Kashmiris are full and equal citizens of Independent India.
Just last month, a Kashmiri muslim Indian citizen, was the topper in the most prestigious All India civil services exam.
Was that news BANNED in pakistan ?

There is a seperatist section among Kashmiris and just like many other seperatist movements in different parts of India over its history, this too will be resolved within the democratic set-up of India.

————-
2. Muslims in India..
————-

Do the Pakistanis realize that the richest Muslim in India, Azim Premji, can buy the top 100 richest Muslims of Pakistan and still have some money left ??
Stop and think about it for a few seconds.

Okay, times up !

Now Azim PREMJI , the owner of one of India’s topmost IT company WIPRO , is a Muslim Shia. Is he still a Muslim in the land of the pure ?

Regarding representation in civil services, there is disparity, not just for Muslims , but accross different sections of India.
Thats because the level of education is different anmong different regions, linguistic, ethnic and religious groups of India.
The democractic governments of India, are trying to solve that disparity by providing equal opportunities and in some cases quotas and preferences for some.

Only last month, the top winner of All India’s civil services exam was Shah FAESAL, a kashmiri Muslim. So yes Muslims can be toppers, unlike all those terrorists produced by ISI/Army of Pakistan.

Do Pakistanis realize, the top 100 Pakistani lollywood film-stars cannot match the fame and fortune of a single Shah Rukh Khan or Amir Khan ?

Many Indian Muslims have excelled in private enterprise, Indian foreign services, Indian film Industry and sports. Indian film Industry may have more than 17% Muslims, so what ?

How many Pakistani Sunni Muslim nobel laurets has Pakistan produced ?
You cannot claim even one, because he is disqualified Muslim.
Why do you guys insist on being clowns ??
Will you now accuse Noble comittee of discrimination against Pakistani Muslims ?
A very large percentage of Indians, occupy top positions in US in industry and government, in far excess of there % of the population.
Will you now accuse US administration, on whose aid your govt survives, of discriminating in favour of Indians ?

India is far from perfect. However the democratic set-up offers opportunities to fix the disparities and problems.

What does Pak offer ? Is it not the largest producer of criminal terrorists in the world ?
Is it not a bankrupt, begger state, where Army and intelligence services rule the people ?

Stop worrying about Muslims of India And worry about Muslims of Pakistan.
We will stop worrying about you, the day your army/ISI stops exporting terrorism.
Other than that, asking you to stop exporting terrorism, we have no business with you.
None what so ever.

The Muslims of India, a growing minority, can take care of themselves. The only thing they cannot match PAK is in producing terrorists.

Note : Take time and read, before making more excuses for the sorry state of Pak.

[Reply]

@Rajiv
Do you really feel that we need to answer these absurd queries by poeple who have no clue of history or geography of their country? The debate here is between reason and irrelevence. If they can argue on the basis of hatred lets give them the trophy. I would rather dissociate from such undue rhetoric. And yes I am expecting a ” you are a kafir”kind of comment very soon!
Dr. Shah Alam Khan
AIIMS, New Delhi

[Reply]

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?36923-India-s-Minorities-situation-in-United-Nations-MUST-WATCH

Don watch all the videos, It might show your ugly face.

Question to the Dr Shah Alam Khan from New Delhi, is it permissible for a Muslim to do Ganish’s Puja?

Do you really feel that we need to answer these absurd queries by poeple who have no clue of history or geography of their country? Allam Khan you are going to teach us our history and georaphy, you guys will go to any length to show your indianess. What a pathetic way to live.

[Reply]

Generally we are also of similar views about Indians, atleast we are on the same page on something. I did not expect you to watch video’s on http://www.un.org/webcast. You guys run away from such debate, but you like blogs where you outnumber others in posting. As far as staying far far goes, every indian blog you go to, its is about Pakistan, whether it is culture, TV Programs, debates, politics, cricket, hockey or we are discussing Opra Winfrey. You people are so insure, that you have to bring and abuse Muslims and Pakistan, its your nature, not your fault Ragiv Baita. Lately you guys can’t even talk about Pigeons, without talking about lone pegeon we sent across the border.

Ragiv next time you see a pigeon, please don’t shoot it might be your fellow Indian Muslim, Sikh, God forsaken Dalit, Christian or a Maoist.

[Reply]

No one says India has solved all its problems.
Its democratic set-up has seen the country develope and lot more needs to be done.

The country has maintained its territorial integrity, ( has not lost 1/2 the country and is not ruled by criminal intelligence services and army and whose civilian government begs around for money ! ) religious diversity.

Yes India still has lot many poor and the % of people in poverty have been coming down.

Yes India has a economy/GDP 10 times that of Pakistan and getting even bigger !

Yes , India’s per capita income is now more than that of Pakistan.

Yes, Pakistan is no match for India in education, industry, science and entertainment.

Now what about Pakistan ?

Any answers ?

Curiously, I have heard no defense of Pakistan, while I have answered points raised.

Oh you have the Islamic bomb !
Just make sure that the bomb does not ultimately spell your own doom, just as Pk terrorists are doing for Pak now.

[Reply]

—————————————————————
Question : What’s the Pakistani objective
—————————————————————-
To Pakistanis who insist on coming to this forum , I have a few questions.

The choice is your, you can answer them or flee .

Beginning the with Kashmir war, in 48-49, Pakistan has been trying to win territory or Kashmir.

It has lost many wars, lost 1/2 its country, being reduced to a pauper state, but still does not give up.
The Pakistani state still arms terrorists of Lashker-e-toiba , sends criminals like Kasav, protects criminals like
Saeed Hafiz etc.

My question is, whats the game plan ? What’s the Pak Vision ?

1948-49 : Kashmir signs accession to India , after Pakistan invades Kashmir.
Kashmir may have joined Pakistan but the invasion and brutality that the Pak invaders brought helps Kashmir in Indian lap.
Indian forces repell the invaders from Jammu and Kashmir.
The kingdom, consisted of 5 provinces of Jammu, Kashmir, Gilgit, Baltistan, Leh-Ladhakh.
When cease fire is called, India keeps Jammu, 90% of Kashmir, leh, ladhakh.
Pakistan keeps Gilgit , Baltistan and 6-7% of Kashmir province ( Muzaffarabad area ).

India claims China has occupied part of Ladhakh, China claims India has occupied a whole Chinese province , called Arunachal Pradesh in India. However, both are content to talk about it while trade flourishes between them. China is India’s biggest trade partner now.

India has since not initiated war with Pakistan to capture PoK. Kashmiris themselves do not consider Gilgit and Baltistan, part of Kashmir. India is happy with the status quo. Pak is not.

However Pakistan has been trying, unsuccessfully to get Indian Kashmir, with disastorous consequences to itself, both in terms of territory lost and damage caused to its politics and state.
In fact, quiet literally, everytime it has initiated war, it has lost even more !

1965 Pak initiated war into J&K : At the end of the war..
(wikipedia)
” The Indian army suffered 3,000 battlefield deaths, while Pakistan suffered 3,800.
The Indian army was in possession of 710 mile² (1,840 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (545 km²) of Indian territory.
The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors,[16] while Pakistani land gains were primarily south in deserts opposite to Sindh and in Chumb sector near Kashmir in north.[17] ”

India could have kept the territory 710 Vs 210 sq mile , was a good deal for India. But India returned all Pak territory .

1971 Pakistan civil war, spills over into India. Pakstani army genocide in east Pakistan causes 10 million refugees in India.
Thats more than the entire population of Jammu and Kashmir !
India moves to aid the poor , destitute and provides aid to Mukti Bahini to resist Pak genocide.

Pakistan attacks India in the West ! In fact the Pak dictator and idiot goes on Pak national TV to declare they have attacked India !
Pakistan declares , “defense of east, lies in the West” , so they have attacked India !
As per wikipedia
“On the evening of 3 December at about 5:40 PM,[24] the Pakistani air force launched a pre-emptive strike on eleven airfields in north-western India, including Agra which was 300 miles (480 km) from the border”

Final Result :
1/2 of Pakistan lost.
As per wikipedia, after Pakistan lost , India
” released more than 90,000 Pakistani PoWs in five months[63].
Further, as a gesture of goodwill, nearly 200 soldiers who were sought for war crimes by Bengalis were also pardoned by India.

The accord also gave back more than 13,000 km² of land that Indian troops had seized in West Pakistan during the war, though India retained a few strategic areas[64]; most notably Kargil”

So India did not take any territory of East Pakistan.
India, returned 90,0000 plus Pak surrenderees or PoW after taking good care of them as per Geneva conventions !
India even returned 13,000 sq km of West Pakistan.
Astounding genorosity to a vicious, perfidious entity !!
Think about it .

India kept Kargil, hoping Pak would learn some lessons that it should avoid conflict with India after losing eastern 1/2 and Kargil.
But idiots don’t learn a lesson ! Is that a national IQ issue ?

1985 Siachen
Line of Control, ended at the foot of the glacier. Rest of it was unmarked , no mans land. Pakistan started mountain expeditions on the glaciar, claiming it part of Pak controlled territory. India made diplomatic protest. Pak claimed the glacier was its ! India moves in to assert its control.
Pak loses again. Siachen firmly under Indian control.
No lesson learnt again !

1999 World conquerer, latest Pak miracle, dictator Musharraf sends Pak army to occupy Kargil in winter. When India detects the invasion, India fights back.

Result : Pak flees. Loses peaks where it was dug in and on much higher ground.
Yes India has taken a few more peaks than it controlled before the Kargil war, as a token fine on the Pak army.
Has Pak army told you that ? I guess not.

I just don’t understand, how a Islamic superpower, keeps losing to a country with 20-30% of world’s poor , 27 insurgencies, maoists etc!
How much more humilating can it be ?

But has Pak learnt any lessons, in its conflicts with India ?

Does Pak understand that each time it fights India, it loses more ?

Does Pak understand that the Jihadi machinery , its glorious army had built, now controls large parts of Pak and is challenging Pak on its own territory ?
Does Pak understand that a 1000 Kasavs and such terrorists, that it continues to train can only bring more grief, more shame and more losses ?

So whats the Pak game plan ? I need some answers here.

See, if you maintain zero contact with ‘vicious India’ , you wont lose any more territory and not lose any more wars ! The list of losses shall stop.
So zero contact with India , is in your favour ! Stay away , it will do you a world of good.

———————————————————————————————————-
Moral of the story : If you stop fighting India, you will stop losing. Guaranteed !!!!!!!
————————————————————————————————————

[Reply]

I have covered this story in my blog with another perspective. Please read and comment. Its about the support Taliban got in return of killing Qadianis.

————————————————————————————-
http://tanzeel.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/taliban-stir-muted-sympathy/

[Reply]

sal,the only reason there r no riots in pakistan are because hindus do not start them like muslims do in india all the time…due to processions near amosque
just because media hides that u dont know……..in last few weeks there were riots in bareili,hyderabad and bareili……all started by muslims…and in we saw how hindus were cleansed in kashmir……and their population came down in bdesha n dpakistan and muslims have grown in india..that says it all…….just hiding and lieing and believing propagnada from motivated media willl ofcourse keep u ignorant about muslim misdeeds and yes hindus have been killing muslims in india and yet tehir population has grown and muslims are so subdued that they dare burn atrain and start riots over processions…but media will make u belive their propagnada by hiding facvts…..
very clever……this is indian secularism and secular media..target hindus and hate ur own community…only secular hindus r treacherous enough to do this…..

[Reply]

[Reply]

That pakistan was born out of a divisive mentality of its leaders is undeniable , but the premise offered that post partition their leaders realised that they could not run a country on divisive policies c is ludicrous . A country which was born where the midwife was violence , hatred and separatism could never have succeded in its frivolous claims of being secular even if some of its leaders opined / wished otherwise .
So pakistan|s history has been a natural progression to where it stands today —as the harbinger of violence , intolerant , openly nourishing terrorists groups. That more pakistanis have been involved in terror plotting all over the world bears testimony to this . This is not strange at all
There was a report some days back in the pakistan newspapers — in connenction with the shazad terror case a pakistan major was arrested / detained . Same day there was a story in that paper about a noted pak scribe (HAMID MIR) who was suspected of having links with the taliban The cancer is not superficial as one would like to beleive but has spread to a strata of society which you would claim are immune to such extreme thoughts
And why this should not be ?From inception pakistan has lauded sectarian thoughts — an islamic state founded and nurtured in divisness cannot do but this . Their education curriculm which was madrassa oriented day in and day out dished out extreme curriculm . When the new generation nurtured under this system in free pakistan came of age there was a surge of extreme thought. The govt even if it wished could not control this Frankstein monster which it had created Is it surprising therefore that even a” person like Bhutto for whom religious fanaticism was anathema had to bow to the zealots and ban and deprive the ahamadis of their basic rights.He could not have done otherwise if he had to survive politically
The recent so called offensive against taliban is a eye wash by the military / isi in pakistan . It is only to garner more aid from usa —so pakistan when it wants kills or captures a few dispensable ones whilst nurturing safely the others So keep the usa on tenterhooks and keep them happy whilst asking for aid —-this is better strategy than the begging bowl
Hence pakistan progression is towards talibanisation of its society as pakistan has been put on this path from its inception . Free speech , free thought, a spirit of tolerance ,for different views , thoughts , religions are all alien to the concepts which brought pak in existence — religious bigotry.
It cannot be but otherwise
My father ‘\s family was from lahore before partition —–out of seven brothers six came to india whilst one sarwan lal of miani village lahore could not come and remained there to look after his property
six months later he had to adopt the name of ghulam rasool as he found his old name / religion / ancestry a ring around his neck for his future in that country Need more have to be said?

[Reply]

YaleGlobal Forums

India: Hindu extremism causing concerns
Posted: Dec 4, 2008 4:52 AM Reply

Reports says Hindu extremists under the Hindutva banner have challenged Christians to convert to Hinduism if they want to return to their villages. Most of the churches, Christian homes and Christian villages in Kandhamal and 14 other district of Orissa are vandalized.

Terming the torching of churches, raping of nuns and killings of innocent christians as a ‘cultural terrorism” unleashed by Hindu extremists, the Dal Khalsa held the Indian government responsible for miserably failing to protect the lives and properties of the minority community.

In a hard hitting statement, the party vice-president Manmohan Singh Khalsa, general secretary Dr Manjinder Singh and political secretary Kanwarpal Singh urged the United Nations to intervene as despite the public outcry and recoomendations of National Commission for Minorities to ban Bajrang Dal, the approach of the Indian government has been totally biased.

“Though the prime minister and the UPA chairperson belong to minority community, the response of the state machinery is being driven by prejudice”. As elections are drawing nearer, there were fears that violence against minorities would escalate, they observed. The connivance of the RSS and VHP was visible as their militant wing Bajrang Dal leader Mahendra Kumar supported and justified the attacks on churches.

The worst anti-Christian violence in India since independence has reminded the horrors and agonies of Sikhs and Muslims who suffered the worst kind of genocides in 1984 and 2002 in the hands of Congress and the BJP respectively. The leaders condemned the attempts made by certain so-called Hindutva elements directing christian refugees not to return to their homes unless they converted to Hinduism.

Urging the Amnesty International and the Asia Human Rights Watch to seek explanation from the Indian government for failing to curb the violations of the human rights, they said the silence of the international community especially the West was unfortunate and ridiculous.

In India, an umbrella organization called the Sangh Parivar champions the concept of Hindutva. The sangh comprises organizations such as the RSS, Bharatiya Janata Party, Bajrang Dal, and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad.

This ideology has existed since the early 20th century, forged by Veer Savarkar, but came to prominence in Indian politics in the late 1980s, when two events attracted a large number of mainstream Hindus to the movement. The first of these events was the Rajiv Gandhi government’s use of its large Parliamentary Majority to overturn a Supreme Court verdict granting alimony to an old woman that had angered many Muslims (see the Shah Bano case).

The second was the dispute over the 16th century Mughal Babri Mosque in Ayodhya — built by Babur after his first major victory in India. The Supreme Court of India refused to take up the case in the early 1990s, leading to a huge outcry. Tempers soon flared, and a huge number of nationalist Hindus from all parts of India razed the mosque in late 1992, causing nationwide communal riots. The razing of the mosque and subsequent conflict arguably lifted the BJP and Hindutva to international prominence.

“The expertise to read the signpost of the attack on secularism and democracy in India and monitor accordingly is the need of the hour,” said, Ms. Asma Jahangir, United Nations Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief at her concluding press conference after a three-week mission trip to find the religious intolerance in India early this year.

The attack on Christians in India is crystal clear of attack on Indian secularism and democracy, wrote some editors in India. The concerns are rising that extremism is undermining Indian’s peace and it could descend in hell.
Tribal Christians of the Dang district of Gujarat, Jhabua of Madhya Pradesh, and Kandhamal of Orissa are major victims of the organized attack by Hindutva forces.

The episode of black Christmas in the Kandhamal district of Orissa in 2007 and the ongoing attack in different parts of the country are the latest signposts of the attack on Indian secularism and democracy. In black Christmas, the media reported nine Christians killed, over 90 churches and Christian institutions and over 700 Christian homes burnt and over 7000 lives affected. The economic system of tribal Christians was destroyed to ashes.

The ongoing and uncontrolled communal violence on Christians has left over 30 deaths, over 100 churches, 300 Christian villages, 4000 Christian homes burnt down and 50000 Dalit Christians made refugees in forest.

[Reply]

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A simple litmus test….
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There is a simple, yet very accurate litmus test, about how tolerant and pluralistic a society is.

If the population of minorities is staying stable or increasing, you can safely conclude that the
minorities are safe in that state.

No one wants to live in a state where his life and property are not safe. I would not live in USA, if my life and property was not safe. The fact that % of minority population is increasing here is a testimony to the fact that the state and society here is tolerant.
Same for India.

Everywhere in the world, where any minority is ill treated, suppressed by the state , there percentage of the populatipon goes dowm. The minorities, simply move away to places where there life and property are secure.

1. Hitlers Germany, Jews moved away
2. Tibet, Tibettans moved away, Han Chinese increased in % of Tibet population
3. Pakistan, Hindus fled or converted to protect there lives and property at a unprecedented rate.
I must add, even Aurangzeb’s brutalities ( Bye the way, Aurangzeb is regardded as a Hero in Pak history ! ) did not force Hindus living in territories of Punjab for thousands of years to flee.
But Jinnah’s religion based politics succeeded , where Aurangzeb failed..
4. Indian Kashmir, Hindus moved away and in just 10 years beginning 1986, the population of Hindus in the valley, came down from more than 10-15% to less than 1 %.
They moved to JAMMU or elsewhere in India.
5. SriLanka, % population of Hindu Tamils has decreased

In fact, the reduction of minorities in Pakistan, is almost at a rate unmatched in history, with few parallels.

No Pakistani, should ever dare to compare, India and Pakistan’s treatment of minorities.
If minorities in India were not safe, they would have moved away, just as minorities in Pakistan, Afganistan did. In fact the opposite has happened in India. The minority population has increased, as a % of the population.

to Indian states tolerance and protection of its minorities. Its not a favour that India does but its a matter of pride that the state seeks to provide equal protection to all its citizens.

[Reply]

Let us analyse Jinnah dispassionately.

One of the strange things we are told is that Jinnah would not have asked for Pakistan, had he become the president of the COngress in the thirties.

Which means….

That he was willing to split a country to attain power.

We really have to see him in that light.

Of course, Pakistan has been a failure as a nation and a disaster for humanity. It now possess nuclear weapons and chances are that as it goes down the tubes, it would be willing to blow up the world alongside. The terrorists would just conclude that they have achieved jannat…

We now have to work together– we meaning all the nations of the world — to either reform this evil entity or dismantle it.

The reasonable people of Pakistan should question fatwas and texts written in another age. There is no point in insulting one religion againstt another. But then words written centureis ago cannot ever be final.

Maybe gender equality, freedom for minorities, making Pakistan secular like India, closing down its education system and sending NCERT books to its school students can change Pakistan.

Otherwise it is bound to create a jahannum for the entire world

[Reply]

Experts focus on plight of Dalits and christian minorities

Increasing attacks on them create atmosphere of insecurity

The atmosphere of insecurity for Dalits and minorities in Rajasthan as a result of increasing attacks on them and the State-backed discrimination pushing these sections to the margins of civil society was the focus of deliberations during a conference on social conflicts which ended here on Monday.

Speakers at the three-day meeting, organised by the Centre for Dalit Rights (CDR) and five associated organisations, said the communal and caste riots witnessed with regularity in the State formed part of a conspiracy to stifle the voice of weaker sections and cripple them on the social and economic fronts.

The theme of the conference, “Social conflicts and efforts for peace in Rajasthan”, led the participants to discuss the issues such as violence perpetrated against Christians,branding minorities as anti-nationals, and regular victimisation of Dalits in community life and denial of equal rights to them.

CDR chairman P.L. Mimroth said the difficult topography, complex social structure, feudalism and social conflicts were interrelated in Rajasthan, where caste-based discrimination was always justified by higher castes. He said communalism was another dimension of feudal society of the State which wanted to subjugate all non-Hindus.

R.K. Akodia, former Member of the State Human Rights Commission, said Dalits were often used as tools against minorities during communal violence and no serious attempt was made for their social, political or economic empowerment.

People’s Union for Civil Liberties general secretary Kavita Srivastava pointed out that communal and anti-social elements indulging in violence against Dalits and minorities had the tacit support of the Bharatiya Janata Party-led Government committed to the ideology of RSS.

G.L. Deora, former Vice-Chancellor of Kota Open University, said the social conflicts were the result of wrongful attitude of higher castes desiring no change in the status quo, that had led to discrimination against Dalits for several centuries.

[Reply]

Excellent analysis by Istiaq Ahmed, a scholar of Pak origin
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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201068\story_8-6-2010_pg3_2

The Muslim League’s propaganda struck terror in the hearts of the Hindus and Sikhs who were told that they would be paying jazya and Islamic law will prevail in all sectors of individual and collective life. The minority Shia and Ahmediyya communities were also fearful that it would result in Sunni domination

The recent attack on a congregation of Ahmedis during prayers, which claimed more than 90 innocent lives, has revived a discussion as to whether there is a connection between the creation of Pakistan and Islam. Within the Muslim League there was always a constituency in favour of Pakistan becoming an Islamic state. One of its proponents was a close confident of Jinnah: Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, a Shia. In 1939 he wrote to the historian Mohibul Hassan:

“When we speak of democracy in Islam it is not democracy in the government but in the cultural and social aspects of life. Islam is totalitarian — there is no denying about it. It is the Quran that we should turn to. It is the dictatorship of the Quranic laws that we want — and that we will have — but not through non-violence and Gandhian truth” (Mushirul Hasan, 1997: 57-8).

If the March 23, 1940, Lahore Resolution be taken as the start of the Pakistan campaign, then Jinnah had to make a breakthrough in the Muslim-majority provinces of northwestern India — Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Punjab and Sindh — each of which had regional parties headed by Muslims. The Muslim League had to convince the Muslim voters in these provinces that their leaders were courting Hindus and Sikhs and thus were paving the way for Hindu Raj under the Indian National Congress. That opportunity arrived in July 1945 when the British government announced provincial elections for February 1946. Punjab Governor Sir Bertrand Glancy has recorded in several secret fortnightly reports (FR) the tactics that the Muslim League adopted during the long election campaign. In the FR of December 27, 1945, Glancy noted:

“Among Muslims the Leaguers are increasing their efforts to appeal to the bigotry of the electors. Pirs and maulvis have been enlisted in large numbers to tour the province and denounce all who oppose the League as infidels. Copies of the Holy Quran are carried around as an emblem peculiar to the Muslim League. Feroz [Khan Noon] and others openly preach that every vote given to the League is a vote cast in favour of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). These deplorable tactics, as I have frequently said, were only to be expected; they provide a grim augury of the future peace of India and they are certainly not easy for the Unionists to counter” (Lionel Carter, 2006: 160).

In the FR of February 2, 1946, Glancy wrote:

“The ML [Muslim League] orators are becoming increasingly fanatical in their speeches. Maulvis and pirs and students travel all round the province and preach that those who fail to vote for the League candidates will cease to be Muslims; their marriages will no longer be valid and they will be entirely excommunicated…It is not easy to foresee what the results of the elections will be. But there seems little doubt the Muslim League, thanks to the ruthless methods by which they have pursued their campaign of ‘Islam in danger’, will considerably increase the number of their seats and Unionist representatives will correspondingly decline” (Carter, 2006: 171).

Similar tactics were adopted in the campaigns in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Sindh. In his doctoral dissertation, India, Pakistan or Pakhtunistan?, Erland Jansson writes:

“The pir of Manki Sharif…founded an organisation of his own, the Anjuman-us-asfia. The organisation promised to support the Muslim League on the condition that Shariat would be enforced in Pakistan. To this Jinnah agreed. As a result the pir of Manki Sharif declared jihad to achieve Pakistan and ordered the members of his anjuman to support the League in the 1946 elections” (pg 166).

Jinnah wrote in November 1945 a letter to Pir Manki Sharif in which he promised that the Shariat would apply to the affairs of the Muslim majority. He wrote:

“It is needless to emphasise that the Constituent Assembly, which would be predominantly Muslim in its composition, would be able to enact laws for Muslims, not inconsistent with the Shariat laws and the Muslims will no longer be obliged to abide by the un-Islamic laws” (Constituent Assembly of Pakistan Debates, Volume 5, 1949, pg 46).

The Muslim League’s propaganda struck terror in the hearts of the Hindus and Sikhs who were told that they would be paying jazya and Islamic law will prevail in all sectors of individual and collective life. The minority Shia and Ahmediyya communities were also fearful that it would result in Sunni domination. This is obvious from the correspondence between the Shia leader Syed Ali Zaheer and Jinnah in July 1944 (G Allana, 1977: 375-9). Although the Council of Action of the All-Parties Shia Conference passed a resolution on December 25, 1945, rejecting the idea of Pakistan (SR Bakshi, 1997: 848-9), most Shias shifted their loyalty to the Muslim League in the hope that Pakistan will be a non-sectarian state. Initially the Ahmediyya were also wary and reluctant to support the demand for a separate Muslim state (Munir Report, 1954: 196). It is only when Sir Zafarullah was won over by Jinnah that the Ahmedis started supporting the demand for Pakistan. To all such groups Jinnah gave assurances that Pakistan will not be a sectarian state.

In my forthcoming book on the partition of Punjab, now running into more than 1,000 pages but which is at last completed and for which I am now looking for a publisher, I will shed light on how the fierce Islamist propaganda impacted on the partition of Punjab. The Sikhs had more fears than anyone else about what could happen to minorities in Pakistan. In a meeting in May 1947 sponsored by Lord Mountbatten to help the Muslims and Sikhs reach an agreement on keeping Punjab united, Jinnah offered the Sikhs all the safeguards they wanted if they agreed to support Pakistan. Only in March 1947 some 2,000-10,000 Sikhs — depending on who you cite — were butchered in the Rawalpindi rural areas so the Sikhs were very wary of Jinnah’s overtures. Chief Minister of Patiala Hardit Singh Malik writes he had an inspiration and asked Jinnah: “Sir you are making all the promises but God forbid if something happens to you, what will happen then?” The exact words Jinnah used in reply will be revealed in my forthcoming book, but the reasoning was that his followers will treat his words as sacred.

Ishtiaq Ahmed is a Visiting Research Professor at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS) and the South Asian Studies Programme at the National University of Singapore and Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is currently working on a book, Is Pakistan a Garrison State? He can be reached at isasia@nus.edu.sg

[Reply]

Dear Azhar ji,

You are trying to allude to India, whatever Pakistan is known for ! How sad….

We have a minorites commission and now even reservation for minorities.

As far as Dalits are concerned we have job and education reservations. The caste system was a bad thing and Hindus are trying to eliminate it. In another 10-15 years it would disapear. Though some selfish politicains like Mayawati and Mulayam Singh may try to prolong it for political reasons. In India’s southern states caste equality has more or less been achieved.

But Pakistan …. Oh dear me… it is sliding back to the seventh sixth and fifth century B.C

You are now producing suicide bombers en mass; you are proud of the Burqa and trying to cover your women. Imagine one half of Pakistan– its women– are its lower castes. They can be married fourth, fifth or sixth time; divorced without alimony, everything. So half of Pakistan is Dalit.

Its minorites are killed or converted. To be a shia in Pakistan or a sikh, Hindu or Christian is a curse. IF you are a Qadiani… God help you.

Can we call this hell hole a P A K istan or a NARK-istan??

Azhar ji you can change all this. You should study the Indian example of secular democracy and try to implement it in your country.

Its morning here in India. I raise my cup of coffee prying to Allah, Jesus and Ram, that our neighbour becomes less venal, less evil and more like india and the sublime gentle humanity loving world….

[Reply]

Vijay non of my fellow country are in self-denial that terrible things have and are happening in Pakistan. There is no boubt in our minds that we have to undo what our useless leaders have done. Having said the only reason why I am trying to show you the mriror, you face is just as ugly if not uglier. But the difference is that you don’t talk about but LOVE to to point others faults. And also losts of foreign agencies are gleefully playing theri role, trying to create mayhem but we as people inshallah will come out of this.

While you are having your cup of tea, watch out for the pigeons flying over head, they might be flying across the border.

http://www.cricketrevolution.com
http://www.pac.org.pk/

[Reply]

Arundhati RoyPosted: December 12, 2008 03:39 PM BIO Become a Fan Get Email Alerts Bloggers’ Index

We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching “India’s 9/11.” And like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we’re expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it’s all been said and done before.

As tension in the region builds, U.S. Senator John McCain has warned Pakistan that, if it didn’t act fast to arrest the “bad guys,” he had personal information that India would launch air strikes on “terrorist camps” in Pakistan and that Washington could do nothing because Mumbai was India’s 9/11.

But November isn’t September, 2008 isn’t 2001, Pakistan isn’t Afghanistan, and India isn’t America. So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions.

It’s odd how, in the last week of November, thousands of people in Kashmir supervised by thousands of Indian troops lined up to cast their vote, while the richest quarters of India’s richest city ended up looking like war-torn Kupwara — one of Kashmir’s most ravaged districts.

The Mumbai attacks are only the most recent of a spate of terrorist attacks on Indian towns and cities this year. Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Delhi, Guwahati, Jaipur, and Malegaon have all seen serial bomb blasts in which hundreds of ordinary people have been killed and wounded. If the police are right about the people they have arrested as suspects, both Hindu and Muslim, all are Indian nationals, which obviously indicates that something’s going very badly wrong in this country.

If you were watching television you might not have heard that ordinary people, too, died in Mumbai. They were mowed down in a busy railway station and a public hospital. The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich. They killed both with equal cold-bloodedness.

The Indian media, however, was transfixed by the rising tide of horror that breached the glittering barricades of “India shining” and spread its stench in the marbled lobbies and crystal ballrooms of two incredibly luxurious hotels and a small Jewish center.

We’re told that one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That’s absolutely true. It’s an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day. On a day when the newspapers were full of moving obituaries by beautiful people about the hotel rooms they had stayed in, the gourmet restaurants they loved (ironically one was called Kandahar), and the staff who served them, a small box on the top left-hand corner in the inner pages of a national newspaper (sponsored by a pizza company, I think) said, “Hungry, kya?” (“Hungry eh?”). It, then, with the best of intentions I’m sure, informed its readers that, on the international hunger index, India ranked below Sudan and Somalia.

But of course this isn’t that war. That one’s still being fought in the Dalit bastis (settlements) of our villages; on the banks of the Narmada and the Koel Karo rivers; in the rubber estate in Chengara; in the villages of Nandigram, Singur, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, Lalgarh in West Bengal; and the slums and shantytowns of our gigantic cities.

That war isn’t on TV. Yet.

So maybe, like everyone else, we should deal with the one that is.

Terrorism and the Need for Context

There is a fierce, unforgiving fault line that runs through the contemporary discourse on terrorism. On one side (let’s call it Side A) are those who see terrorism, especially “Islamist” terrorism, as a hateful, insane scourge that spins on its own axis, in its own orbit, and has nothing to do with the world around it, nothing to do with history, geography, or economics. Therefore, Side A says, to try to place it in a political context, or even to try to understand it, amounts to justifying it and is a crime in itself.

Side B believes that, though nothing can ever excuse or justify it, terrorism exists in a particular time, place, and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm’s way. Which is a crime in itself.

The sayings of Hafiz Saeed who founded the Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) in 1990 and who belongs to the hard-line Salafi tradition of Islam, certainly bolsters the case of Side A. Hafiz Saeed approves of suicide bombing, hates Jews, Shias, and Democracy, and believes that jihad should be waged until Islam, his Islam, rules the world.

Among the things he said are:

“There cannot be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy.”

And: “India has shown us this path. We would like to give India a ***-for-tat response and reciprocate in the same way by killing the Hindus, just like it is killing the Muslims in Kashmir.”

But where would Side A accommodate the sayings of Babu Bajrangi of Ahmedabad, India, who sees himself as a democrat, not a terrorist? He was one of the major lynchpins of the 2002 Gujarat genocide and has said (on camera):

“We didn’t spare a single Muslim shop, we set everything on fire… we hacked, burned, set on fire… we believe in setting them on fire because these ******** don’t want to be cremated, they’re afraid of it… I have just one last wish… let me be sentenced to death… I don’t care if I’m hanged… just give me two days before my hanging and I will go and have a field day in Juhapura where seven or eight lakhs [seven or eight hundred thousand] of these people stay… I will finish them off… let a few more of them die… at least twenty-five thousand to fifty thousand should die.”

And where in Side A’s scheme of things would we place the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh bible, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined by M. S. Golwalkar , who became head of the RSS in 1944. (The RSS is the ideological heart, the holding company of the Hindu fundamentalist Bharatiya Janata Party, BJP, and its militias. The RSS was founded in 1925. By the 1930s, its founder, Dr. K. B. Hedgewar, a fan of Benito Mussolini’s, had begun to model it overtly along the lines of Italian fascism.)

It says:

“Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening.”

Or:

“To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here… a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by.”

Of course Muslims are not the only people in the gun sights of the Hindu Right. Dalits have been consistently targeted. Recently, in Kandhamal in Orissa, Christians were the target of two and a half months of violence that left more than 40 dead. Forty thousand people have been driven from their homes, half of whom now live in refugee camps.

All these years Hafiz Saeed has lived the life of a respectable man in Lahore as the head of the Jamaat-ud Daawa, which many believe is a front organization for the Lashkar-e-Taiba. He continues to recruit young boys for his own bigoted jihad with his twisted, fiery sermons. On December 11, the United Nations imposed sanctions on the Jamaat-ud-Daawa. The Pakistani government succumbed to international pressure and put Hafiz Saeed under house arrest.

Babu Bajrangi, however, is out on bail and lives the life of a respectable man in Gujarat. A couple of years after the genocide, he left the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP, a militia of the RSS) to join the Shiv Sena (another rightwing nationalist party). Narendra Modi, Bajrangi’s former mentor, is still the Chief Minister of Gujarat.

So the man who presided over the Gujarat genocide was reelected twice, and is deeply respected by India’s biggest corporate houses, Reliance and Tata. Suhel Seth, a TV impresario and corporate spokesperson, recently said, “Modi is God.” The policemen who supervised and sometimes even assisted the rampaging Hindu mobs in Gujarat have been rewarded and promoted.

The RSS has 45,000 branches and seven million volunteers preaching its doctrine of hate across India. They include Narendra Modi, but also former Prime Minister A. B. Vajpayee, current leader of the opposition L. K. Advani, and a host of other senior politicians, bureaucrats, and police and intelligence officers.

And if that’s not enough to complicate our picture of secular democracy, we should place on record that there are plenty of Muslim organizations within India preaching their own narrow bigotry.

So, on balance, if I had to choose between Side A and Side B, I’d pick Side B. We need context. Always.

A Close Embrace of Hatred, Terrifying Familiarity, and Love

On this nuclear subcontinent, that context is Partition. The Radcliffe Line, which separated India and Pakistan and tore through states, districts, villages, fields, communities, water systems, homes, and families, was drawn virtually overnight. It was Britain’s final, parting kick to us.

Partition triggered the massacre of more than a million people and the largest migration of a human population in contemporary history. Eight million people, Hindus fleeing the new Pakistan, Muslims fleeing the new kind of India, left their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

Each of those people carries, and passes down, a story of unimaginable pain, hate, horror, but yearning too. That wound, those torn but still unsevered muscles, that blood and those splintered bones still lock us together in a close embrace of hatred, terrifying familiarity, but also love. It has left Kashmir trapped in a nightmare from which it can’t seem to emerge, a nightmare that has claimed more than 60,000 lives.

Pakistan, the Land of the Pure, became an Islamic Republic, and then very quickly a corrupt, violent military state, openly intolerant of other faiths.

India on the other hand declared herself an inclusive, secular democracy. It was a magnificent undertaking, but Babu Bajrangi’s predecessors had been hard at work since the 1920s, dripping poison into India’s bloodstream, undermining that idea of India even before it was born.

By 1990, they were ready to make a bid for power. In 1992 Hindu mobs exhorted by L. K. Advani stormed the Babri Masjid and demolished it.

By 1998, the BJP was in power at the center. The U.S. War on Terror put the wind in their sails. It allowed them to do exactly as they pleased, even to commit genocide and then present their fascism as a legitimate form of chaotic democracy.

This happened at a time when India had opened its huge market to international finance and it was in the interests of international corporations and the media houses they owned to project it as a country that could do no wrong. That gave Hindu nationalists all the impetus and the impunity they needed.

This, then, is the larger historical context of terrorism on the subcontinent — and of the Mumbai attacks. It shouldn’t surprise us that Hafiz Saeed of the Lashkar-e-Taiba is from Shimla (India) and L. K. Advani of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh is from Sindh (Pakistan).

In much the same way as it did after the 2001 Parliament attack, the 2002 burning of the Sabarmati Express, and the 2007 bombing of the Samjhauta Express, the government of India announced that it has “incontrovertible” evidence that the Lashkar-e-Taiba, backed by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was behind the Mumbai strikes.

The Lashkar has denied involvement, but remains the prime accused. According to the police and intelligence agencies, the Lashkar operates in India through an organization called the “Indian Mujahideen.” Two Indian nationals, Sheikh Mukhtar Ahmed, a Special Police Officer working for the Jammu and Kashmir Police, and Tausif Rehman, a resident of Kolkata in West Bengal, have been arrested in connection with the Mumbai attacks.

So already the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy.

Almost always, when these stories unspool, they reveal a complicated global network of foot soldiers, trainers, recruiters, middlemen, and undercover intelligence and counter-intelligence operatives working not just on both sides of the India-Pakistan border, but in several countries simultaneously.

In today’s world, trying to pin down the provenance of a terrorist strike and isolate it within the borders of a single nation state, is very much like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. It’s almost impossible.

In circumstances like these, air strikes to “take out” terrorist camps may take out the camps, but certainly will not “take out” the terrorists. And neither will war.

Also, in our bid for the moral high ground, let’s try not to forget that the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, the LTTE of neighboring Sri Lanka, one of the world’s most deadly terrorist groups, were trained by the Indian Army.

Releasing Frankensteins

Thanks largely to the part it was forced to play as America’s ally, first in its war in support of the Afghan Islamists and then in its war against them, Pakistan, whose territory is reeling under these contradictions, is careening toward civil war.

As recruiting agents for America’s jihad against the Soviet Union, it was the job of the Pakistani Army and the ISI to nurture and channel funds to Islamic fundamentalist organizations. Having wired up these Frankensteins and released them into the world, the U.S. expected it could rein them in like pet mastiffs whenever it wanted to. Certainly it did not expect them to come calling in the heart of the homeland on September 11. So once again, Afghanistan had to be violently remade.

Now the debris of a re-ravaged Afghanistan has washed up on Pakistan’s borders.

Nobody, least of all the Pakistani government, denies that it is presiding over a country that is threatening to implode. The terrorist training camps, the fire-breathing mullahs, and the maniacs who believe that Islam will, or should, rule the world are mostly the detritus of two Afghan wars. Their ire rains down on the Pakistani government and Pakistani civilians as much, if not more, than it does on India.

If, at this point, India decides to go to war, perhaps the descent of the whole region into chaos will be complete. The debris of a bankrupt, destroyed Pakistan will wash up on India’s shores, endangering us as never before.

If Pakistan collapses, we can look forward to having millions of “non-state actors” with an arsenal of nuclear weapons at their disposal as neighbors.

It’s hard to understand why those who steer India’s ship are so keen to replicate Pakistan’s mistakes and call damnation upon this country by inviting the United States to further meddle clumsily and dangerously in our extremely complicated affairs. A superpower never has allies. It only has agents.

On the plus side, the advantage of going to war is that it’s the best way for India to avoid facing up to the serious trouble building on our home front.

The Mumbai attacks were broadcast live (and exclusive!) on all or most of our 67 24-hour news channels and god knows how many international ones. TV anchors in their studios and journalists at “ground zero” kept up an endless stream of excited commentary.

Over three days and three nights we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men, armed with guns and gadgets, exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard, and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation.

While they did this, they indiscriminately massacred unarmed people, in railway stations, hospitals, and luxury hotels, unmindful of their class, caste, religion, or nationality.

(Part of the helplessness of the security forces had to do with having to worry about hostages. In other situations, in Kashmir for example, their tactics are not so sensitive. Whole buildings are blown up. Human shields are used. The U.S. and Israeli armies don’t hesitate to send cruise missiles into buildings and drop daisy cutters on wedding parties in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan.)

But this was different. And it was on TV.

The boy-terrorists’ nonchalant willingness to kill — and be killed — mesmerized their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news.

Here was something new. Die Hard 25. The gruesome performance went on and on. TV ratings soared. Ask any television magnate or corporate advertiser who measures broadcast time in seconds, not minutes, what that’s worth.

Eventually the killers died and died hard, all but one. (Perhaps, in the chaos, some escaped. We may never know.)

Throughout the standoff the terrorists made no demands and expressed no desire to negotiate. Their purpose was to kill people, and inflict as much damage as they could, before they were killed themselves. They left us completely bewildered.

Collateral Damage

When we say, “Nothing can justify terrorism,” what most of us mean is that nothing can justify the taking of human life. We say this because we respect life, because we think it’s precious.

So what are we to make of those who care nothing for life, not even their own? The truth is that we have no idea what to make of them, because we can sense that even before they’ve died, they’ve journeyed to another world where we cannot reach them.

One TV channel (India TV) broadcast a phone conversation with one of the attackers, who called himself “Imran Babar.” I cannot vouch for the veracity of the conversation, but the things he talked about were the things contained in the “terror emails” that were sent out before several other bomb attacks in India. Things we don’t want to talk about any more: the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992, the genocidal slaughter of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, the brutal repression in Kashmir.

“You’re surrounded,” the anchor told him. “You are definitely going to die. Why don’t you surrender?”

“We die every day,” he replied in a strange, mechanical way. “It’s better to live one day as a lion and then die this way.” He didn’t seem to want to change the world. He just seemed to want to take it down with him.

If the men were indeed members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba, why didn’t it matter to them that a large number of their victims were Muslim, or that their action was likely to result in a severe backlash against the Muslim community in India whose rights they claim to be fighting for?

Terrorism is a heartless ideology, and like most ideologies that have their eye on the Big Picture, individuals don’t figure in their calculations except as collateral damage.

It has always been a part of, and often even the aim of, terrorist strategy to exacerbate a bad situation in order to expose hidden fault lines. The blood of “martyrs” irrigates terrorism. Hindu terrorists need dead Hindus, Communist terrorists need dead proletarians, Islamist terrorists need dead Muslims. The dead become the demonstration, the proof of victimhood, which is central to the project.

A single act of terrorism is not in itself meant to achieve military victory; at best it is meant to be a catalyst that triggers something else, something much larger than itself, a tectonic shift, a realignment. The act itself is theater, spectacle, and symbolism, and today the stage on which it pirouettes and performs its acts of bestiality is Live TV. Even as TV anchors were being condemned by other TV anchors, the effectiveness of the terror strikes was being magnified a thousand-fold by the TV broadcasts.

Through the endless hours of analysis and the endless op-ed essays, in India at least, there has been very little mention of the elephants in the room: Kashmir, Gujarat, and the demolition of the Babri Masjid.

Instead, we had retired diplomats and strategic experts debate the pros and cons of a war against Pakistan. We had the rich threatening not to pay their taxes unless their security was guaranteed. (Is it alright for the poor to remain unprotected?) We had people suggest that the government step down and each state in India be handed over to a separate corporation.

We had the death of former Prime Minster V. P. Singh, the hero of Dalits and lower castes, and the villain of upper caste Hindus pass without a mention.

We had Suketu Mehta, author of Maximum City and co-writer of the Bollywood film Mission Kashmir give us his version of George Bush’s famous “Why They Hate Us” speech. His analysis of why religious bigots, both Hindu and Muslim, hate Mumbai: “Perhaps because Mumbai stands for lucre, profane dreams and an indiscriminate openness.”

His prescription: “The best answer to the terrorists is to dream bigger, make even more money, and visit Mumbai more than ever.”

Didn’t George Bush ask Americans to go out and shop after 9/11? Ah yes. 9/11, the day we can’t seem to get away from.

A Shadowy History of Suspicious Terror Attacks

Though one chapter of horror in Mumbai has ended, another might have just begun. Day after day, a powerful, vociferous section of the Indian elite, goaded by marauding TV anchors who make Fox News look almost radical and left-wing, have taken to mindlessly attacking politicians, all politicians, glorifying the police and the army, and virtually asking for a police state.

It isn’t surprising that those who have grown plump on the pickings of democracy (such as it is) should now be calling for a police state. The era of “pickings” is long gone. We’re now in the era of Grabbing by Force, and democracy has a terrible habit of getting in the way.

Dangerous, stupid oversimplifications like the Police are Good/Politicians are Bad, Chief Executives are Good/Chief Ministers are Bad, Army is Good/Government is Bad, India is Good/Pakistan is Bad are being bandied about by TV channels that have already whipped their viewers into a state of almost uncontrollable hysteria.

Tragically this regression into intellectual infancy comes at a time when people in India were beginning to see that, in the business of terrorism, victims and perpetrators sometimes exchange roles.

It’s an understanding that the people of Kashmir, given their dreadful experiences of the last 20 years, have honed to an exquisite art. On the mainland we’re still learning. (If Kashmir won’t willingly integrate into India, it’s beginning to look as though India will integrate/disintegrate into Kashmir.)

It was after the 2001 Parliament attack that the first serious questions began to be raised. A campaign by a group of lawyers and activists exposed how innocent people had been framed by the police and the press, how evidence was fabricated, how witnesses lied, how due process had been criminally violated at every stage of the investigation.

Eventually, the courts acquitted two out of the four accused, including S. A. R. Geelani, the man whom the police claimed was the mastermind of the operation. A third, Showkat Guru, was acquitted of all the charges brought against him, but was then convicted for a fresh, comparatively minor offense.

The Supreme Court upheld the death sentence of another of the accused, Mohammad Afzal. In its judgment the court acknowledged that there was no proof that Mohammed Afzal belonged to any terrorist group, but went on to say, quite shockingly, “The collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender.”

Even today we don’t really know who the terrorists that attacked the Indian Parliament were and who they worked for.

More recently, on September 19th of this year, we had the controversial “encounter” at Batla House in Jamia Nagar, Delhi, where the Special Cell of the Delhi police gunned down two Muslim students in their rented flat under seriously questionable circumstances, claiming that they were responsible for serial bombings in Delhi, Jaipur, and Ahmedabad in 2008. An assistant commissioner of police, Mohan Chand Sharma, who played a key role in the Parliament attack investigation, lost his life as well. He was one of India’s many “encounter specialists,” known and rewarded for having summarily executed several “terrorists.”

There was an outcry against the Special Cell from a spectrum of people, ranging from eyewitnesses in the local community to senior Congress Party leaders, students, journalists, lawyers, academics, and activists, all of whom demanded a judicial inquiry into the incident.

In response, the BJP and L. K. Advani lauded Mohan Chand Sharma as a “Braveheart” and launched a concerted campaign in which they targeted those who had dared to question the integrity of the police, saying to do so was “suicidal” and calling them “anti-national.” Of course, there has been no enquiry.

Only days after the Batla House event, another story about “terrorists” surfaced in the news. In a report submitted to a Sessions Court, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) said that a team from Delhi’s Special Cell (the same team that led the Batla House encounter, including Mohan Chand Sharma) had abducted two innocent men, Irshad Ali and Moarif Qamar, in December 2005, planted two kilograms of RDX (explosives) and two pistols on them, and then arrested them as “terrorists” who belonged to Al Badr (which operates out of Kashmir).

Ali and Qamar, who have spent years in jail, are only two examples out of hundreds of Muslims who have been similarly jailed, tortured, and even killed on false charges.

This pattern changed in October 2008 when Maharashtra’s Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS), which was investigating the September 2008 Malegaon blasts, arrested a Hindu preacher Sadhvi Pragya, a self-styled God man, Swami Dayanand Pande, and Lt. Col. Purohit, a serving officer of the Indian Army. All the arrested belong to Hindu nationalist organizations, including a Hindu supremacist group called Abhinav Bharat.

The Shiv Sena, the BJP, and the RSS condemned the Maharashtra ATS, and vilified its chief, Hemant Karkare, claiming he was part of a political conspiracy and declaring that “Hindus could not be terrorists.” L. K. Advani changed his mind about his policy on the police and made rabble rousing speeches to huge gatherings in which he denounced the ATS for daring to cast aspersions on holy men and women.

On November 25th, newspapers reported that the ATS was investigating the high profile VHP chief Pravin Togadia’s possible role in the blasts in Malegaon (a predominantly Muslim town). The next day, in an extraordinary twist of fate, Hemant Karkare was killed in the Mumbai attacks. The chances are that the new chief, whoever he is, will find it hard to withstand the political pressure that is bound to be brought on him over the Malegaon investigation.

While the Sangh Parivar does not seem to have come to a final decision over whether or not it is anti-national and suicidal to question the police, Arnab Goswami, anchorperson of Times Now television, has stepped up to the plate. He has taken to naming, demonizing, and openly heckling people who have dared to question the integrity of the police and armed forces.

My name and the name of the well-known lawyer Prashant Bhushan have come up several times. At one point, while interviewing a former police officer, Arnab Goswami turned to the camera: “Arundhati Roy and Prashant Bhushan,” he said. “I hope you are watching this. We think you are disgusting.”

For a TV anchor to do this in an atmosphere as charged and as frenzied as the one that prevails today amounts to incitement, as well as threat, and would probably in different circumstances have cost a journalist his or her job.

So, according to a man aspiring to be the next prime minister of India, and another who is the public face of a mainstream TV channel, citizens have no right to raise questions about the police.

This in a country with a shadowy history of suspicious terror attacks, murky investigations, and fake “encounters.” This in a country that boasts of the highest number of custodial deaths in the world, and yet refuses to ratify the international covenant on torture. A country where the ones who make it to torture chambers are the lucky ones because at least they’ve escaped being “encountered” by our Encounter Specialists. A country where the line between the underworld and the Encounter Specialists virtually does not exist.

The Monster in the Mirror

How should those of us whose hearts have been sickened by the knowledge of all of this view the Mumbai attacks, and what are we to do about them?

There are those who point out that U.S. strategy has been successful inasmuch as the United States has not suffered a major attack on its home ground since 9/11. However, some would say that what America is suffering now is far worse.

If the idea behind the 9/11 terror attacks was to goad America into showing its true colors, what greater success could the terrorists have asked for? The U.S. military is bogged down in two unwinnable wars, which have made the United States the most hated country in the world. Those wars have contributed greatly to the unraveling of the American economy and who knows, perhaps eventually the American empire.

(Could it be that battered, bombed Afghanistan, the graveyard of the Soviet Union, will be the undoing of this one too?)

Hundreds of thousands of people, including thousands of American soldiers, have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. The frequency of terrorist strikes on U.S. allies/agents (including India) and U.S. interests in the rest of the world has increased dramatically since 9/11.

George W. Bush, the man who led the U.S. response to 9/11, is a despised figure not just internationally, but also by his own people.

Who can possibly claim that the United States is winning the War on Terror?

Homeland Security has cost the U.S. government billions of dollars. Few countries, certainly not India, can afford that sort of price tag. But even if we could, the fact is that this vast homeland of ours cannot be secured or policed in the way the United States has been. It’s not that kind of homeland.

We have a hostile nuclear-weapons state that is slowly spinning out of control as a neighbor; we have a military occupation in Kashmir and a shamefully persecuted, impoverished minority of more than 150 million Muslims who are being targeted as a community and pushed to the wall, whose young see no justice on the horizon, and who, were they to totally lose hope and radicalize, will end up as a threat not just to India, but to the whole world.

If 10 men can hold off the NSG commandos and the police for three days, and if it takes half a million soldiers to hold down the Kashmir valley, do the math. What kind of Homeland Security can secure India?

Nor for that matter will any other quick fix.

Anti-terrorism laws are not meant for terrorists; they’re for people that governments don’t like. That’s why they have a conviction rate of less than 2%. They’re just a means of putting inconvenient people away without bail for a long time and eventually letting them go.

Terrorists like those who attacked Mumbai are hardly likely to be deterred by the prospect of being refused bail or being sentenced to death. It’s what they want.

What we’re experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet’s squelching under our feet.

The only way to contain — it would be naïve to say end — terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror. We’re standing at a fork in the road. One sign says “Justice,” the other “Civil War.” There’s no third sign and there’s no going back. Choose.

Copyright 2008 Arundhati Roy

Afghanistan
Pakistan
Terrorism
Cross-posted from TomDispatch.com We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watchi…
Cross-posted from TomDispatch.com We’ve forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watchi…

[Reply]

Rajiv baita we don’t answer anything coming from your end period.

When are yu going to acknowledge your short commings.

You refuse to discuss the things which shows your own uglyy face.

Sweet dreams

Don’t shoot them pigeons outside, it might be one of your own.

[Reply]

Dear Sal and Azhar,

If the pigeon you are alluding to is Kasab, it just shows your sick Pakistani mentality.

Kill innocents in the name of jehad and celeberate. How sick…. !!

Pakistanis cannot change.

Keep qoting Arundhati ROy. SHe is a publicity seeker, nobody respects in India. Yes we are a democracy and she has a right to speak. In fact even has the right to misuse her freedom which she would never get in a Maoist state which she supports.

By the way she celeberates incest with her brother in “God of small things.” I am sure you guys love that also.

[Reply]

@ all Pakistanis on this forum….

Quoting figures on Poverty is such a sweet lie….

First of all most of the figures are such a damn lie. They only satisfy our Pakistani brothers who start believing that suddenly they are much richer in than India…

The poverty figure is about 17%. However our planning commission keeps revising the norms of who is poor so that more and more people get subsidies. You don’t see people dying of starvation or famine in India anymore.

And yes, we do have an excess of communists in our system who for getting publicity, try to prove that the new economic policies are not working and poverty is increasing.

So dont fool yourself.

India is middle class now and getting richer

[Reply]

To all my Pakistani brothers….

COngratulations !! !! you guys are the Champions….

From Karachi to Kansas…

From Lahore to London

From Margalla Hills to Mumbai sea port

From NWFP to New York city ….

YOU guys are the champions…..

In TERRORISM !! in KIlling INNOCENTS !!

In suicide bombings

The Leading world exporters of Heroin and opium !!! leading exporter ji leading exporter….

Wah wah wah !!! ha ha ha

what a country… what a people….

[Reply]

People like Vinod canot cut off the chord with Pakistan.

Nostalgia of olger generation aside, we should just cut off any discussion/comparison on Pakistan. Does US compare itself to Mexico or Cuba? Contiguity does not mean equals.

Pakistan is an Islamic country, bent on self destruction. India is a country with aspirational objectives and huge accomplishments through a seat at the table for all in the country. We should compare with other vibrant democracies (I do not want to minimize China’s leap; another country, another system), and emulate/discard.

Pakistan is an irritant pimple; our defence systems should be strengthened and be on alert to remove that pimple if there is a chance the pimple is cancerous — and it looks it is cancerous.

[Reply]

Hilarious

Pakistanis ( sal ) now talking about China’s advances !!

Are Pakistanis now claiming to be Chinese ? Or China , now a part of Pakistan ?

I know many Pakistanis in USA are claiming to be Indians because the word Pakistani in USA is synonomous with disparaging things. I dont blame the Pakistanis here, who just don’t want to be associated with the name ‘Pakistan’.

[Reply]

Pakistan being wealthier is a lie concoted by false data.

There is lady, a professor from JNU called Jayati Ghosh who features prominently on Pakistani websites and she disparages all claims of India prospering and shining. To her, all of India’s growth is like that of a Latin American country ( read banana republic) while that of China is genuine and egalitarian.

Poor lady is delusional and cannot even see that a dicatatorship like CHina can never be egalitarian. But then like Arundahti Roy she goes to a western capital, uses a capitalist run TV channel to get money and publicity and then blames India for being a market economy and not a state controlled one. Poor girl…. tch tch… pity her. She is now being used by the Pakistan Defence forum as a publicity tool for disparaging India’s democracy and growth.

These sort of idiots will keep trying to demoralise India.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we have to factor in the fact that a lot wealth there is a creation of heroin and drug export as well as the aid money it gets by creating terror.

It is still far behind India and in GOdman Sachs projection figures for BRIC countries will probably be the blacksheep of the entire world.

America itself is a victim of the “Charlie Wilson” war. Charlie Wilson, being the senator who along with his mistress forced Ronald Reagan to earmark more funds for Zia Ul Haq and Pakistan to fiught the SOviets in Afghanistan.

Irony is that the Soviets would have anyway left Afghanistan after the advent of Gorbachev, As they left Romania. Bulgaria, GDR and rest of Eastern Europe and former republics.

Ronald Reagan was the cardboard Cowboy of Hollywood and Charlie Wilson ends up becoming the cause of so much trouble the world faces now.

Pakistan, meanwhile has created its own governance model which we can call the Charlie Wilson model; Create terror in Afghanistan and rest of the world and then force us to give it aid….

What a country… what a people….

Wah ! WAH ! WAH !!! Ha HA HAA

[Reply]

Shriman Azhar and Sal,

Today’s news in Pakistan’s Dawn is about

a) Pakistan being the most unstable country in the world

b) Pakistan’s 6 million people accepting Taliban as their masters and living with no human rights.

Guys, you should go back and do some social work rather than training pigeons to attack India

Jannat ghar ko banao…. insaan ko maar kar jannat nahi milegi …

But will you guys ever change??/

[Reply]

“There is no more Taleban” !!

Even the Pak ISI, which lies profusely and believes Pak people are dumb, doesn’t lie that much.

But then, When Pak surrendered to India in Bangladesh, and lost 1/2 the coutry ,Pak radio reported that ‘local commanders have agreed to a ceasefire”.

There is no end to the kind of absurdities that Pak people will willingly believe and the Pak army/ISI will tell its people.

[Reply]

Taleban = Pakistan , created by ISI/Army which rule Pakistan.

Maoists are not created by our army or ISI and are not state sponsored.

Maoists have been there , for last 100 years. No big deal because the state is not in collusion with Maoists .
The Pak state is in collusion with its own enemies.
Afghan Taleban and Haqini Taleban, are still the jewels in the crown of Pak !
They are carrying on Jinnah’s goals of a Islamic state.

Big diference.

[Reply]

Shriman Sal, Azhar…

Hey did you appreciate the poem I wrote on the Championship in terror and herion export Pakistan won hands down… ?

[Reply]

Sal,

Sal,

Thanks for appreciating my comment.

You are really free to say what you like/ believe. After all history will always be written and interpreted in many ways, and that diversity of opinion, is what makes history so interesting.

What I said was India’s stated position and demonstrated by India’s action of getting out of Bangladesh instantly. We will have to agree to disagree

Regards.

[Reply]

@ all my Pakistani bhaiyas….

In 1971, the Indian army capured 93,300 Pakistani Prisoners of war. We treated their army men well and fed them. Then sent them back intact.

The Pakistani army capture only542 INdian POWs.

But….

It only sent back 312.

Rest have either been tortured and killed. Or are still being tortured.

That is the difference between India and Pakistan….

[Reply]

Has Mr Sharma quit writing his blogs ?

[Reply]

@ Sal

first of all pronounce my name properly you Muslim pig.

1-if you are not satisfied with the info given in Wikipedia you can just check other sites as well (of course except the P-a-k-i ones). your La W-h-o-r-e was captured by us.

2- cannot call Nehru’s decision the one made on our behalf. Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel’s warning was taken lightly. there were many other talented and pragmatic leaders eligible to be the prime minister. (including Sardar Patel).

[Reply]

@Paritosh,

If Pak army and ISI could not convince Sal, what a sordid state they have reduced Paksiatn to, what are your chances ?

Leave Sal alone to stew in the Pakistani broth, that Pak mullah-ISI combo has cooked for him.

[Reply]

Why are we wasting our time talking about Pakistan? Thanks to its army, ISI, mullahs, and inept leadership, its only claim to fame is terrorism. People from all over the world go there for undergraduate , graduate, and PhD studies in terrorism. Finally they are being devoured by these terrorists.

I would recommend that we abstain from writing any comments on what vinod writes about Pakistan. Pakistan is anon-entity for us, just a border counytry, theer is no benefit in comparing. Of course, we may get one satisfaction that oen country went far ahead starting from the same platform; however, our comparison should be with US, China, japan etc from an economic and science perspective; and US on a democracy/institutions perspective.

Chodo Pakistan.. boycott vinod’s blog in future. Waste of precious time

[Reply]

Why are we wasting our time talking about Pakistan? Thanks to its army, ISI, mullahs, and inept leadership, its only claim to fame is terrorism. People from all over the world go there for undergraduate , graduate, and PhD studies in terrorism. Finally they are being devoured by these terrorists.

[Reply]

@all my Pakistani brothers…

De not proud that you produce the maximum suicide bombers in the world….

A high GNP of suicide bombers is a sad reflection of Pakistan….

Be not proud when your jehadis kill Ahemadiyyas and Shias…

Your jehadis are just plain rabid dogs who need to be exterminated…

Be not proud when your terrorists behead Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

For your terrorists are just evil deviants and not human beings…

Be not proud when your fanatics kill and convert Christians

For your fanatics are evill cobras who need to be exterminated.

Be not proud when you ship heroin and terror to all parts of the globe…

Dear Pakistani brothers,

Be only proud that when your country manages to do just one good thing for humanity…

And that does not seem to be happening…

[Reply]

Thanks for deleting my post, Mr. Sharma, and appreciate for showing your true colors

Some of the idiots can use abusive language and its ok by you.

[Reply]

Pak duplicity and Taleban-

————————————————–
From BBC
—————————————————–
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/10302946.stm

Pakistani intelligence gives funding, training and sanctuary to the Afghan Taliban on a scale much larger than previously thought, a report says.

Taliban field commanders interviewed for the report suggested that ISI intelligence agents even attend Taliban supreme council meetings.

Support for the Afghan Taliban was “official ISI policy”, the London School of Economics (LSE) authors suggest.

Pakistan’s military denied the claims.

A spokesman said the allegations were “rubbish” and part of a malicious campaign against the country’s military and security agencies.

The LSE report comes at the end of one of the deadliest weeks for Nato troops in Afghanistan, with more than 30 soldiers killed.

‘Double game’

Links between the Taliban and Pakistan’s intelligence service have long been suspected, but the report’s author – Harvard analyst Matt Waldman – says there is real evidence of extensive co-operation between the two.

Continue reading the main story There is thus a strong case that the ISI orchestrates, sustains and shapes the overall insurgent campaign
Matt Waldman

Report author
“This goes far beyond just limited, or occasional support,” he said. “This is very significant levels of support being provided by the ISI.

“We’re also saying this is official policy of that agency, and we’re saying that it is very extensive. It is both at an operational level, and at a strategic level, right at the senior leadership of the Taliban movement.”

Mr Waldman spoke to nine Taliban field commanders in Afghanistan earlier this year.

Some alleged that ISI agents had even attended meetings of the Taliban’s top leadership council, the so-called Quetta shura. They claim that by backing the insurgents Pakistan’s security service is trying to undermine Indian influence in Afghanistan.

Taliban field commanders were interviewed by the report’s author “These accounts were corroborated by former Taliban ministers, a Western analyst and a senior UN official based in Kabul, who said the Taliban largely depend on funding from the ISI and groups in Gulf countries,” the report said.

With US troops due to begin leaving next year, Pakistan and other regional players are increasingly seeking ways to assert their influence in Afghanistan, analysts say.

Pakistan has long been accused of using the Taliban to further its foreign policy interests in the country. The ISI first became involved in funding and training militants in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion in 1979.

Since 2001, however, it has been a key US ally, receiving billions of dollars in aid in return for helping fight al-Qaeda

“Pakistan appears to be playing a double-game of astonishing magnitude,” the report says.

‘No proof’

But Islamabad says it is working with its international partners in hunting down the Taliban.

And the Taliban’s former ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, says there is no proof of a link between the ISI and the Afghan Taliban.

“I have no proof that Pakistan is supporting the Taliban,” he told the BBC, “or that the ISI is providing money to them… or other support to provide weapons.”

Even so, Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan is viewed as critical.

Last week Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh resigned, saying he had become an obstacle to plans to talk to the Taliban.

Mr Saleh told Reuters news agency a day after quitting that the ISI was “part of the landscape of destruction” in Afghanistan and accused Pakistan of sheltering Taliban leaders in safe houses.

Pakistan has always denied such claims and points to arrests and military offensives against the militants on its side of the border. Nevertheless, parts of the tribal north-west of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan remain strongholds for the militants.

The BBC’s Quentin Sommerville in Kabul says there is a growing understanding that military action alone will not be enough to bring peace in Afghanistan.

“Without a change in Pakistani behaviour it will be difficult if not impossible for international forces and the Afghan government to make progress against the insurgency,” the report concludes.
Bookmark with

[Reply]

Punjabi fools and naive pan-Punjab “Punjabiyat” romantics like
the author of this blog are only expected to be the perennial
peace-pushers they are, regardless of India’s basic interests.

Is it not striking and revealing that the fanatical peace-pushers
are — Kuldip Nayar, Vinod Sharma, Mani Shankar Aiyar,
Vinod Mehta, Khushwant Singh — all born in Pakistan pre-’47?

Something to think about.

Shame on these Punjabis for whom Punjab comes before India.
Bengalis and Sindhis don’t have the same attitudes, thank God.

And what’s with this “we’re all the same, yaar” stuff that they keep pushing?

I wonder if they would say “we’re all the same” about a Tamilian or an Arunachali.

[Reply]

@Rajiv

The report only proves what I have beenn saying all along.

That Pakistan needs to create terror and insurgency in Afghanistan to survive; this is its way to get aid from the gullible west and its way of creating a panic situation that the world needs to help Pakistan, otherwise it will blow up along with its nuclear weapons.

The solution now lies in

a) Either dismantle Pakistan. The new republices created would have a balance of terror among themselves. The Baluchis and the Mohajirs, The Ahemadiyyas, Shias and hindus, CHristians and Sikhs of Pakistan do deserve freedom

b) Or have a massive reverse brainwashing campaing in Pakistan whereby we, the democracies of the world manage to convert their fanatics into a more gentle species of humoan beings. The trouble here is that everyone of importance in Pakistan seems to have links with fanatics and Taliban. As we have seen in the case of Hamid Mir and now Asif Zardari.

I would want the opinion of my Pakistani friends who blog on this site.

[Reply]

There is a lesson here for all countries. Pak is playing a double game here again with USA, while it cointinues to survive on Western aid.

Duplicity and dishonesty are the twin principles on which the Pak entity operates. Its foolish to expect, Pak will conduct itself with honesty and transparency in its dealings with India, whom it calls its sworn enemy , when its so brazenly dishonest with its friends and allies.

So why engage with such an entity ? Will you do bisiness with a person whom you know to be an incorrigible thug and vile ? Thats why India should not engage Pak and maintain a distance with it.

[Reply]

Dear Azhar Hussain ji,

Please take out that hatred from your head and heart!! And start loving humanity and other religions also….

You may feel that the jehadis and suicide bombers your country produces are sweet sweet children and brave; that when they kill a Shia , a christian a hindu a sikh … they are serving Islam.

Nothing can be further away from the truth.

And the truth to a non Pakistani is so obvious. That these indoctrined killers are like rabies infacted dogs who can only cause harm to humanity and now need to be exterminated.

SO take the hate of your head and try to improve the secular state of Pakistan. Make it more human. Jail and kill your religious militants and corrupt ISI men. Then only will Pakistan be a more desirable state…

With love…

[Reply]

As far as the facebook video goes, this only shows you the side you don’t care to see…This is an American singer and true picture of Israeli atrocities is increasing…..You non-muslim just don’t want to see this because of your own hatred. True film of the illegal occupyiers, Vijay when you rob and kill, guess what the other side is coming after you aswell…Better have the balls to stand up…Those Palestinians will never bow down, understand that Vijay

[Reply]

Dear Azhar hussain ji,

I have full symapthies for the Palestinians, as I have for the Ahemadiyyas, SIkhs, Shias, Chirstians and Hindus of Pakistan, whose position is worse.

They are hunted, forced to change their religion and killed and be-headed.

Let us all do something for their protection also.

[Reply]

Dear Azhar Hussain hi,

I have written a small poem for you to dwell and think about.
—- —- —-

To all my Pakistani brothers….

COngratulations !! !! you guys are the Champions….

From Karachi to Kansas…

From Lahore to London

From Margalla Hills to Mumbai sea port

From NWFP to New York city ….

YOU guys are the champions…..

In TERRORISM !! in KIlling INNOCENTS !!

In suicide bombings

The Leading world exporters of Heroin and opium !!! leading exporter ji leading exporter….

Wah wah wah !!! ha ha ha

what a country… what a people….

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There is a tendency in some sections of India to prove that Jinnah was “secular.”

Of course he was, considering and comparing him to the current powerful people in Pakistan like Hafeez Saeed and the fanatic mullhas who want to kill or convert the rest of the world.

But….

Let us not forget that…

Jinnah was willing to break up united India, just to attain power.

And Jinnah ordered troops in Kashmir, even as the country was being Partitioned. Lot of the so called self appointed apologists of Jinnah are not willing to get into this fact.

Why distort history to prove your point ?

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Dear Pakistani brother Azhar Hussainji,

I think you are a victim of the fake history being taught to you in Pakistani history books !

I wish you should wash your heart of all hatred which evil preachers unleas on the poor unsuspecting minds of Pakistani children, youth and adults, converting them into humanity hating fanatics.

I am writing a poem for you….

_____________________________—–

O Pakistani brothers…..

O Pakistani brothers…..

be not proud when a fanatic kills a shia….

because a shia is also a human being….

O Pakistani brother do not celeberate when your jehadis kill Ahemadiyyas….

because a Ahmendiyaa too breathes and thinks and is human…..

O Pakistani brother, do not dance when your fundamantalists behead Sikhs,

because Sikhs too have a right to live and are kind human beings…

O Pakistani brothers do not sing with joy when your suicide bombers murder Hindus…

For HIndus are kind hearted people who believe in co-existence of religions…

Be not proud when Pakistsni murder, kill, rape and maim in the name of religion….

When they forcefully exterminate Christians and Parsis….

When they bomb the rest of the world.

Be proud only if you do a good deed to people of other religions…..

Be proud if you beleive that the religious murderers are dogs who need to be exterminated….

Smile and see the sun and the moon P{akistni brothers….

The earth belongs to all of us…..

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In truth, at first i did understand it. But after re-reading I think i understand

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I see no reason to tell pakistani to behave,we Indians let our country down,by what we have done to India.Are we proud of ourselves?If you think superfecial 9% growth which only makes rich richer,break down of everything worth preserving fallen by way side,be proud,I’m not.Yes Pakistan has not done well either,they failed Mr Jinnah too.!But Indians have so much to right things they should not even worry about Pakistan,not that we do not care,but because we have too much on our own plate.We have no concept what kind uphill climb we have ahead of us,we do not even have any clue,yet we worry about pakistan ,iran,iraq and Afghanistan.May be it is pas time like watching bollywood movie or watching ipl cricket.How callous have we have become and our steep fall!

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Hello folks,

This is a joke that I find hilarious everytime I read:

A man received a parrot for his birthday. This parrot was fully-grown with a bad attitude and worse vocabulary. Every other word was an expletive. Those that weren’t expletives were, to say the least, extremely rude.
The man tried hard to change the bird’s attitude and was constantly saying polite words, playing soft music, anything that came to mind.
Nothing worked. He yelled at the bird, the bird got worse. He went to a voodoo spell caster to cast a [url=http://www.lovebindingspell.com]love spell[/url] on it, with no luck.
He shook the bird and the bird got more angry and exceedingly rude.
Finally, in a moment of desperation, he put the parrot in the freezer.
For a few moments he heard the bird squawking, kicking and screaming and then, suddenly, all was quiet.
The man was frightened that he might have actually hurt the bird and quickly opened the freezer door. The parrot calmly stepped out onto the man’s extended arm and said: “I’m sorry that I offended you with my language and actions. I ask for your forgiveness. I will try to improve my behavior.”
The man was astounded at the bird’s change in attitude and was about to ask what changed him when the parrot continued, “…May I ask what the chicken did?”

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Taliban balkanize jinnah E2 80 99s vision of pakistan.. Not so bad

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Why did India train and sponsor LTTE, thus destroying Sri Lanka through a proxy war? Any answers?

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Glad to find this .More post from you

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