Pak debate on US assistance targets India



President Barak Obama has signed the Kerry-Lugar-Berman Bill named after its sponsors and passed by the US Congress. In the statute book, it’s titled Enhanced Partnership with Pakistan Act of 2009.

The new law triples non-military US aid to Pakistan to $ 7.5 billion over the next five years at the rate of 1.5 billion dollars every year towards healthcare, education and creation of infrastructure in the social sector.

Simply put, the assistance is aimed at keeping Pakistan’s donor  economy afloat besides enabling Uncle Sam to connect with the people of the country where it is blamed for all ills and evils.

But why isn’t the money on offer acceptable to Pakistan? Army Chief Ashfaq Kayani has reservations, so does former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

Critics of whom there is no shortage think the law seeks to compromise Pakistan’s sovereignty. They say the conditions linked to continuation of assistance would help Pakistan’s detractors and adversaries (read India) influence the Secretary of State’s mandatory yearly certification How? The law is explicit about what it wants certified by Hillary Clinton in return of unhindered financial aid: 1) Pakistan’s cooperation in efforts to dismantle supplier networks (including Pakistani nationals) dealing in weapons-related nuclear material; 2) Sustained commitment to stop elements within the Pak military or its intelligence agency from supporting terrorist groups carrying out attacks against the US, the coalition forces in Afghanistan and the territory or people of neighbouring countries (read India).

India has always suspected Pakistan of misusing or diverting foreign assistance for military purposes. From its standpoint, the Kerry-Lugar law is well intentioned. But those who want to have it redone (which the US refused when Obama signed it) or rejected by Pakistani Parliament are opposing it for those very reasons.

Sample the following for a clearer view of the law’s objective: “Preventing al Qaeda, the Taliban and associated terrorist groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed from operating in the territory of Pakistan, including carrying out cross border attacks into neighbouring countries….”

It also binds the administration of financial assistance to closure of terrorist camps in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), dismantling terrorist bases of operation in order parts of the country, including Quetta and Muridke, and taking action when furnished with intelligence about high level terrorist targets.

Muridke is the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s headquarters near Lahore. Little surprise then that habituated India bashers view the Kerry-Lugar initiative as an opportunity for New Delhi and not Islamabad. They say it will provide their eastern neighbour another address to protest Pakistan’s procastinations of the kind alleged in the Mumbai case. The other more serious conditionality from the Army’s viewpoint is about “the security forces of Pakistan not subverting the political or judicial processes of Pakistan.”

In a country that has seen several coups and dictators, the proviso should help strengthen democracy and the rule of law. But most Pakistani opinion makers think otherwise. They blame it on America’s desire to control their country and its vital institutions in the guise of promoting civilian rule.

The most debated passage of the law— apart from the one that names the LeT and Muridke —- is about control of civilian government and parliament on the military’s   budget, its chain of command, promotion of senior military leaders, strategic guidance and planning and the military’s involvement in civil administration.

On the face of it, the US Congress has solid reasons to be doubly cautious, given Pakistan’s past record in diverting development funds and those provided for fighting terrorism. But the sovereignty plank wouldn’t be all that easy to defeat, mixed as it is with a deep distrust of the US, a strong dose of anti-India sentiment and the civilian regime’s lack of credibility.

An explanatory statement for “accurate interpretation” of the law says the conditions put by the US Congress were applicable to its executive— not Pakistan— to ensure the assistance benefited the people of Pakistan. It assures there is no intent to micro-manage or impinge on the recipient country’s national security interests.

But political consensus seems elusive on the legislation that’ll fetch Pakistan the money it direly needs. It has divided the country in the middle of a veritable war where terrorists are bombing urban centers and the army the wild, hilly terrains of Waziristan.

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  • Vikram

    Woow so the beggar wants alms without any preconditions. Of course it will be used against India. what r u guys thinking.

    And if the pakistanis r anythign like Indian babus (which vinodji is so fond of pointing out time and again:)) there will be massive corruption and diversion of the funds meant for human development.

    the funds meant for containing the jihadis will be used to buyoff the tribes for sometime to get some semblence of peace, maybe even some bodies will be bought or faked to show some action to the rambo US senator committees, names of the jihadi organizations will be changed and maybe their tents/ caves will be pitched in some other location. americans will be milked for money for some more time as has been happening for the past 60 years. At the end of the day green backs will be used for killing a few more Indians but oh sorry nobody cares about that anyway so right all this is a big faaarce.

    PS Mortality/ death via any terrorist attack will be a regular risk for all the Indians and which is not covered by any Insurance policy either. wooow another win for the system.

    [Reply]

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Mr. Sharma,
    A thought provoking article indeed. The Kerry Lugar Bill, in my opinion is an opportunity for the Pakistani political class to get along the path of development which is obviously ignored for too long now. The checks and balances of the Bill particularly the final section entitled, “Strategy, Accountability, Monitoring and Other Provisions” should keep the money from reaching the radical Jihadi groups in the region. Although having said that, a strong political will can only prevent the misuse of this money for carrying out attacks on Indian soil. As for the debate in Pakistan, the recent economic downturn combined with a serious inland threat have not left many options for the talk of sovereignty. It is a fact that aid from Uncle Sam is not new to Pakistan (in fact a sum of 1.5 billion USD is too little to what they have been getting in the past) but circumstances in which this aid comes are exceptional. I can understand the abhorrence of Pakistani masses for this money as it comes from a country which is hated for its anti Muslim rhetoric. Emotions aside, Pakistani people should realize the extreme threat which their country faces now. Development as an antidote to insurgency is well known. Taliban was created by the American funding under Reagan (he said on the lawns of White house that they reminded him of the freedom fighters of America) and its demise through American money would be a logical conclusion.
    Truly,
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    AIIMS, New Delhi
    Read my Blog: http://indiaandbharat.blogspot.com

    [Reply]

  • http://arrrow-simplejoys.blogspot.com/ Partho

    The KLB seeks to redress the balance – it wants the civilian spends to be the largest pie – thus helping Pakistan build institutions, spend on anti-poverty programs, on education, water and electricity.

    The biggest weakness in this, as in any other legislation of its ilk, is the assumption that such ideas can be driven from the outside. If the intellegentsia and Rawalpindi do not accept such notions, how in the world can any legislation work? This will cause more conflict – especially between Islamabad and Pindi.

    My fear is that the US will simply abandon Pakistan when the going gets impossible. I’m not saying it will become impossible, but by laying down the seeds of a civilian primacy where the Army is being ’shown its place’ is going to add to the volatile environment. Where is the core group of civilians that will take charge? Where is the judiciary beyond the CJ? Where is the political environment that will build consensus? Zardari is being asked to accomplish too much. He has probably being chosen as the sacrifice by the Americans. After all, the immediate effects will not hurt the US. Pakistan is our backyard.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    In this case case i would only say that Pakistan is a cockroach that survives only on leftovers. The aid from the US and the military and infrastructural help from China can be compared as the leftover food.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    What good is the aid for infrastructural development when there are inner conflicts between various factions. The money would simply go down the drain even if one is aware of its utilization. Besides, a good number of parlimentarians (member in opposition and in government), public and army is against KLB. Suicidal bombings and military operation within the country is a norm and abnormality is begining to look like a normal thing. Bottom line is it wont be of any good in this situation. Pakisan has to come on right track by sticking to basics in order to prevail from ailing situation. Things dont turn up one day it takes time for them to grow into a plant (nurtured with corruption, disloyalty, disobedience to law and order) to eventually grow into a tree. I’m a Pakistani who loves his country like any other citizen of any country and feels pain when sees his home on fire. Still I have to admit it is because of our own mistakes that we are paying the price.

    Having said so all of this, it really makes me question India’s position in whole of this and not surprised to see pathetic arguments being passed by associating Pakistan with cockroach and failed state. Where good is India with Pakistan?? in Kashmir issue, in Indus Water Treaty violation, in setting up embassies in Kandahar and Kabul to further sponsor militancy and also creating choas in Baluchistan (concerns with evidence were given to PM Manmohan Singh by PM Gillani in Sharm ul sheikh, Egypt), in samjhota express massacre, in joint Indo-Israel military and intelligence ploting games against Pakistan, in 1971. Where does this all add up to?? I’m very much astonished where majority of Indians cry crocodile tears and not aware of what India has done and is doing under the table to cause serious harm to Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Chaudhry

    Of all the countries on your border, India will be the first which wants stability in your country. Because we know the impact of cross border terrorism and illegal immigration. The terrorists trained by your army and ISI have been creating havoc in Kashmir since late 1980s. Now, as you know they are being sent to other cities also.

    Pakistan is reaping what it saw!

    India could have spent money and efforts on other high priority things (like taking care of its citizens) if not for Pakistani terrorism.

    FYI, India did not have diplomatic relations with Israel in 1971. Therer were two countries where India govt prohibited its citizens from traveling – South Africa and Israel. So the question of joint India-Israel military operation in 1971 does not arise. India established diplomatic relations with Israel only in early 1990s.

    Why would not India have embassies in Afghanistan? Dont we have embassies in Pakistan?

    I dont know what you are talking about Balochistan.

    Let us put our “common sense” to the equation. What benefit india has by instability in Pakistan? India cares a sh– for Pakistani territorry. Why would it want to take over Pakistani people? It has 1.1 billion people, and cannot and wouldnt want to add another 160 million poor and impoverished people.

    I would not even bother about dialogue and negotiations with Pakistan if i were the decision maker in India. It should be ignored, because any effort in time and money wasted since there is nobody responsible there.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Raju,

    I think you missed my point what I was saying. I can understand what India is aiming at despite so many number of issues facing to them and they have worked very well to combat those issues. It is evident from their good governance despite still standing in poor countries of the world. However, we must look and analyze things without being biased.

    What worries India is China. Their number of free investment and development projects for Pakistan and making Pakistan more economically and militarily stable has been on top agenda for Pak-China relation. This would not only give Pakistan a new shape in international market but also would pave way for trade to flourish in Central Asia and for China itself. This is what worries India and some elements in US. This will also wave a save and easy access for Chinese military presence in Afghanistan (Of course yes!! so you think only Russia, US has interest in land locked and outlawed Afghanistan), Arabian sea (something to fear for Americans). Oil + commerce !!! doesn’t that sound very logical to you where China and Pakistan have a WIN-WIN situation and the regional dominent India will have nothing much. Anyway! I leave that as homework for you to re think and connect the pieces to make an answer for instability in Pakistan and especially in Balouchistan under the light of its number of consulates along the Pak border.

    Now for “in 1971″ reply of yours to Indo-Israel relation I’m sorry not to narrate down further in reply I was referring to Pakistan and India’s war over its eastern front in East Pakistan and not with India’s diplomatic relation with Isreal. I’m aware of that when did India and Israel went into diplomatic ties and what are underlying objectives.

    It refers to India’s involvement in shutting down its air space for East Pakistan and training for Mukti Bani to train bengalis to stand up to army of Pakistan. Despite repeated number of intimations sent to government of India, India (government of India more to say) took a blind eye and kept its support for struggle for independence for Bengalis. Something which is now pinching India for PK support to Kashmir. We are going neck to neck to beat each other the only difference is I find India more wicked then Pakistan.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    @Chowdhry

    You mentioned about joint India-Israeli military exercise in 1971 against (Pakistan); and that is why I said India did not have a relationship with Israel at that time. I am glad India saw the light and we have a deepening one now, both of us are victims of radical Islamism.

    India participated in 1971 war only after million so refugees started flowing in to India. And you know the main reason for people fleeing – it was your Punjabi army’s brutality against your fellow Muslims in East Bengal. Even today, as you may know, there is a lot of rage among your people in Pakistan and people in Bengla Desh about the scale of killings your army did in East Bengal; the largest Muslim killing of Muslims in the history.

    Anyway, it is a joke how British (And Pakistanis) could conceive a country can survive with two pieces sepaarted by 2000 miles of land of another country!

    Now regarding China – India is not stupid to fight with China or its proxies; it does not even join the “Tibetan independence movement” eventhough Dalai Lama and his people have been in India for scores of decades.

    Listen my friend, Pakistanis gave a blank cheque to their army early on. Army was successful to create a bogeyman of India and you people bought it. All the resources (yours and other countries’ aid) were diverted to the army. Now army owns land, buiildings, roads, factories while your people do not have education or a way of living.

    Your biggest challenge is not countering terrorism. It is what happens after this cycle? Army as a savior of this crisis will again become the favorite of the people (against Zardari!); and as you know the army is very pro fundamentalist. The country will become Zia Al Huq the second!

    Nikhil Reply:

    Usman,

    What makes you think that India does not want to trade with Pakistan and make each other benefit economically? India has made several attempts to engage with the business community in Pakistan to boost trade links. Somehow those unilateral attempts are snubbed or turned down.

    Pakistan was always militarily stable – heck, it owns the nation – but not economically. Are you suggesting that when in comes to trade and business only Chinese investments in Pakistan are kosher and everyone else secondary?

    Sam Reply:

    India did a big mistake in not holding Nuremberg like trials for all the Punjabi army ..

    It should have exposed and punished them for committing the biggest genocide after world war two.

    They killed close to 3 million people and possibly 2 million of them are Hindus in Bangladesh..

    Why did not have those public trials ?

    Why India did not absorb Bangladesh ?
    (india should have done it, and unified the bengal again).

    If India successfully unified Bengal, other parts of Pakistan would have probably liked to join too..

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @ Nikhil,

    No. I’m not saying that only Chinese investment is kousher and others are secondary I’m saying China’s interest in Pakistan would let China cut down its trade expense. Chinese trade to its mainland comes across the whole of Far East (if plenty of business routes are defined for trading with whole of America, Europe, Middle East, Africa). Having an easy access to ports of Pakistan (and NOT INDIA) will boost its trade and would save quite a lot. THIS IS WHAT creates AGONY in INDIA’s ruling mind. They would like to see India flourish and not the enemies (PAKISTAN, CHINA).

    Pakistan would love to go into trade with India but unfortunately we haven’t been able to create a trust relationship in past 62 yrs. Blame goes to both parties. At the international stage only two things mater trust and interest. India has in past put its interest high and have tried to nich Pakistan in every area military, nuclear weapons and missle system (defence), economically, infrastructurally, letting down Pakistan in Kashmir issue, water disputes, creation of Bangladesh etc. Pakistan should learn from mistakes and keep its interests high with only trusted friends (in my case it is only China and not US/India). But doors for friendship with India are open. Let us all wait and contribute to that moment. That is why I’m here.

    @ Sam,

    Go ahead! and come up with all facts and figures. Do keep in mind “charity begins at home”. I’m expecting good details of undercover RAW’s support for Mukti Bani and Mujeeb ur Rehman’s support in India. Bengali’s have the right to demand justice and trials should be placed in International court of justice. But let me very much clear this out, we expect right of freedom for others and not for ourselves, think of it as Indian held Kashmir as being a separate country, East Punjab being turned into Khalistan and Gujrat into another muslim country. I think you should support them and voice up for their right. You might agree and label them as traitors and not loyal to country.

    Absorbing bengal and going forward to absorb other countries that used to be one unified India, I’m skeptic about this. I’m not sure what you are aiming at! Although the concept of Akhand Bharat does exist in the mind of Hindus (only).

    @ Raju,

    Apparently, this might be true what you are saying keeping in view previous trend. But I do pray to God that let people rule in Pakistan.

    yash Reply:

    Dear Vinodji,

    May I request you to explain why they are not doing to LeT what they are doing to Pak Taliban since you appear to be hailing this operation.

    Thanks,
    Yash

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Yash,
    I haven’t hailed or criticised the Waziristan operation that’s bound to invite more Taliban violence as their strategy is to demoralise the Pak security forces— the army, police and FIA. From whatever little I know, they aren’t attacking the LeT because they are on the establishment’s side unlike the Taliban who oppose democracy and want Islamic law.

    Sam Reply:

    Conquerors are keepers.

    So when india conquered East Pakistan, it should have kept it.

    Simple..

    The trials will be held by the conquerors and the punjabi criminal army (from pakistan) should have been tried in special military courts of india..

    Nikhil Reply:

    Usman,

    After reading your comment, I admire your deep affection and unflinching faith towards China. The Sino-Pak relationship may be a win-win strategy; the expansionist Chinese will love to add a new state to their empire and the Pakistanis will get more money, gadgets and weapons in the form of rent-seeking. Moroever, this arrangement is no less exciting for the Pakistani generals who are always itching for war and jihad for some reason or other.

    It’s also ironic to see that Pakistanis happily embraced the godless Chinese but they fought bitter jihad with the godless Soviets when both were attempting to access the warm waters near the equator. Some may say it’s the self-interest that matter and for Pakistan whoever helps to achieve parity with India is a friend; no matter what the cost. That is fair in geo-politics but disappointing nevertheless. I suspected the mullahs, the generals and the elites in the land of the pure – and now home of jihad – will have higher ideals than the petty animosities which are so often manufactured.

    Thank you ( or should I say ’sheh sheh’ in mandarin to be sensitive to your Chinese masters)

    Raju kurien Reply:

    @Nikhil

    Nikhil, do you think the generals have a chance after China takes over? Wouldn’t Pakistan be a state/province like Uighar and Tibet when China takes over them?

    Nikhil Reply:

    Raju Kurien,

    I never meant that China will actually take over and unfurl a red flag in Islamabad. C’mon guys! You can buy unflinching allegiance through number of ways such as aid, line of credit, military assistance etc. China has demonstrated this successfully with many countries on the African continent. Besides, the beef between India and Pak is not unknown to the Chinese.

    On Uighars, Pakistan has been a difficult partner for China. There are groups in Pakistan who support the Uighur secessionist movement. China, India, Iran and Afghanistan share similar grievance with Pakistan on terrorism. However, China is less vocal because it receives good cooperation from Pakistan in handing over militants who pose threat to China.

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Nikhil,

    I admire irony in your words. I’m not an advisor or advocate to speak on China’s behalf and to teach you diplomacy. India is already concerned with expantionist Chinese.

    Pakistan as a state of China? good one. I look forward to more credible evidence and equally admire your cantonese dialect.

    Sam Reply:

    Start learning Mandarin and get a leg up on the Cantonese speaking people..

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Nikhil,

    Why jihad against Russians and embrassing Chinese? I believe there is a difference of intention. Russian invasion is taken as aggression with brutal use of force. China is clever and has used its economic-friendly ties to make a good base for God knows what future plans. Besides, Pakistan sought a potential harm to its soverignity with Russian invasion. With India in east and Russia in west the allies could have posed greater threat. That is why the so called (intelligence driven) jihad was made.

    Pakistan should learn from its past 30 yrs history with big regional giants (India, China, Russia and America’s presence) it should not be a toy any more and start to form a good solid base to compete with future challanges. Money wont be of any help.

    Sam Reply:

    Usman & other **** lovers..

    I am sure lot of Balochs and other oppressed minorities in Pakistan like Ahmadiyyas would be asking for India’s help..

    India should help them and make sure Ahmadiyas are recognized as Muslims (just like they are in India)..

    Balochistan is about close to half the area of pakistan.
    USA’s army and pentagon already published maps showing them as separate country..

    It is going to be a separate country with the oppression..

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    @ Sam

    India was bent upon breaking Pakistan. This is true and a fact which common man in India would disagree and won’t admit. The discussion was not to mention who was the conqueror in 1971 but rather put forward enemities of India against Pakistan. India kept its support in the form of training to bengalis for their struggle for independence. India could have let it be the way it was but NO. They interfered in the personal matters of neighbour after all it was hard to forget 1947 division and 1965 war.

    What made you say that Balochis and Ahmadeeys are dying and begging for India’s help? Why do you live under such an impression? Ahmadeeys were not declared as non muslims by Pakistan only but by whole of muslim community of world. I wonder how did bollywood republic accepted them muslims? This was done keeping in view their beliefs by the muslim community. Ahmadees are good citizens of Pakistan and by God’s grace no incident against them has happened in past. You need to look on India’s record first for what happend against the lower cast hindus in bihar, christians in orrisa, mulsims in gujrat/J&K, sikhs in punjab.

    It didn’t come as a surprise that Balochistan (Pak, Iran, Afghan) is a new country on CIA and Pentagon maps. Pakistan believes India is a team member of this and is contributing after its good handshake with Israel. PM Gilani had talks with Manmohan Singh including this issue and he had to face a lot of critisim on his return home from Egypt. Another symptom of which is Pak ISI chief held meetings with indian high commisoner and elite indian defence officials (somehow i have a gut feeling this is a sign of friendship). Besides, what more can you expect from CIA, they might have maps of India also.

  • Gopi Thomas

    Pakistan’s history is double talk and deceit. Mushraff was planning an attack in kargill while his President was giving all assurances to Bill Clinton in DC.

    In words and deeds they have been cowards, cheaters. They have been getting money from US fo ever.

    However, i do not think they are cockroaches. BEcause cockroaches survive. It looks like they will be consumed by the fire burning there; will become a failed state.

    The challenge for India is how to coexist with failed states on all its borders !

    [Reply]

  • Atul

    I am reminded of an incident at the Karnal Bus terminus over 20 years ago.

    While we were waiting on the bus, and old man, shivering & crying, came into the bus asking for money to eat food, as he had not eaten for days. His overall demeanour was so pathetic and overpowering that many of us started to reach for our purses. One passenger stood up and gently took him to to the nearby dhaba (visible from our bus window) and told the owner that he will pay for the old man’s lunch.

    Imagine everyone’s surprise when the dhaba owner laughed and said the old man really needed some “nashaa”, not food for the owner fed the old man twice a day. So much for reality checks.

    I am reluctantly forced to draw a parallel of this old man with Pakistan.

    They want the money, but balk at the responsibility in accounting for its utilisation. What more can you expect from a Donor economy that has honed the art of soliciting funds from various sources under various garbs?

    Now we have a superpower hoping to buy the affections / correct perceptions of the Pakistan people.

    Havent they heard the Beatles song – “Money cant buy you love”?

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    I am deeply disappointed at Atul’s comments.
    Yes both Pakistan and India despite their differences have a common “foreign policy” that they are united in sucking up to America in our own ways and suck out what ever they can.
    Its in the best interest of both the countries to continue doing that as America is a super power and they have to continue doing this.
    However we must strive for friendly relationship with each other and work for regional development.
    Our ordinary people need education, health care, jobs and peace.
    We must actively seek these common goal otherwise we will leave our children and future generations in a very harsh environment.

    [Reply]

    Atul Reply:

    I thought long and hard whether I should respond.

    For all my liberal mindedness, being called a fellow “beggar-in-alms” cannot go unchallenged.

    Sir, please do not make it incumbent upon yourself to express solidarity by painting Indian and Pakistani economies with the same brush.

    Am in agreement that our people need to work towards education, healthcare, jobs & peace.

    Am not in agreement that we live off someone elses dole. Earn your keep, and preserve whatever you have left of your identity.

    Begging may still have some modicum of respectability, but continue in this vein, and you will soon be reduced to being compared with the oldest profession in the world.

    Jai Hind

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Usman Chaudhry a.k.a ignorant Mullah

    point t#1 You say that Chinese investment in Pakistan is “unnecessary” doubts in Indian minds because we cant see your Pakistan flourish. well you see, you guys cant be there where we are today even in 50 years from now. You say we did not get the time to trade with you guys, shut up!!! you are so bankrupt and beggarly ( as I mentioned cockroaches) that you are not worthy of trading with a fast growing economy like India.

    point#2 You call the Chinks as your trusted friends?? well you know what??they dont give a $h*t about you beggars. you should be generous that inspite of hardcore enemity we Indians have done thousands of obligations (Ehsaan) on Pakistan

    point#3 You said it right about RAWs interference in the Bangladesh war. Lekin kya karein?? Laton ke bhoot baaton se nahi maantei!! As far as the idea of Akhand Bharat or Akhand Hindu Rashtra is concerned , it is TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. I recommend you to read the world history that hasnt been written from the Islamic perspective by any crackhead Mullah. the Pakistan that you call yours is actually Indian territory that comes under the Hindu culture. i guess instead of claiming the Kashmir we should claim the whole of Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    and yes……my humble apologies to all the cockroaches in the world for I compared them with Pakistan and insulted the cockroach specie

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    people like Usman, should move back to their arab masters lands and leave all original Hindu lands like Pakistan/Bangladesh to Hindus.
    For that matter, one day Afghanistan will move out of islam, once they realized how much violence islam brought to them and rediscover their forefathers religion of Buddhism/Hindu.

    I wouldnt be surprised if this happens in next 2-3 centuries.
    Already there are lot of people leaving Islam in Iran..

    Only Apostasy laws are holding them back from publicly declaring that fact..

    [Reply]

  • Raju Kurien

    @ Chaowdhry

    Your hoistorical references are off the mark. You mentioned about joint Israel/India action in 1971 against E PAkistan, when india did not even have a diplomatic relationship wuith Israel. Now you say RAW was behind Mukti Bahini etc. RAW was in its infancy with recruitment still going on in 1970-1971. RAW was started only towards the end of 1968. I, as a tax payer will be darn proud if an organization started in 1968 could create a “favorable” revolution in 2 years! I cannot give that much credit to a government agency!

    Pakistan will be alright if it removes its “religious prism”. The desire to paint everything from a religious perspective distorts everything. Religion is not even a unifier, as you yourself can see from what is ahppening in your country. But themn, you guys go on about Kashmir, Gujrat, Uighyr, Chechnya .. First, i do not even understand why a Pakistani will be concerned about an uygher or Chechenyan. Get on with your life, get your house in order

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Raju,

    Don’t let me point out your comprehension mistake despite clarification. Anyway, I have extracted and pasted the text below of my previous conversation

    Dated: 21 October

    “…. Now for “in 1971″ reply of yours to Indo-Israel relation I’m sorry not to narrate down further in reply I was referring to Pakistan and India’s war over its eastern front in East Pakistan and not with India’s diplomatic relation with Isreal. I’m aware of that when did India and Israel went into diplomatic ties and what are underlying objectives.

    It refers to India’s involvement in shutting down its air space for East Pakistan and training for Mukti Bani to train bengalis to stand up to army of Pakistan. Despite repeated number of intimations sent to government of India, India (government of India more to say) took a blind eye and kept its support for struggle for independence for Bengalis. Something which is now pinching India for PK support to Kashmir. We are going neck to neck to beat each other the only difference is I find India more wicked then Pakistan.”

    This first para should be sufficient enough to let you know that my reference to 1971 is not for Indo-Israel ties for a joint military assualt against Pakistan.

    RAW was the spearhead in bengali liberation. Although, it was created in 1968 but IB (Intelligence Bureau) was there from 1933 to provide the basis and grounds for its favourable operation.

    —–

    Yes, i agree Pakistan must come out of religious prism to set things on track. It is difficult to change this mindset that is so much to be seen ever since the Afghan war.

    I don’t have much knowledge about PK’s voice for Ughar and Checheniya. May be you can assist and point out. For a pakistani only Pakistan should matter. If pakistanis won’t learn from themselves and the mistakes they have made, even God wont help.

    [Reply]

  • yash

    Usman,

    Pak might hail China as a good friend. But China never gave Pak any money even in dire straits. When Pak arranged a international begging conference in Japan it was the western countries that gave money to Pak. China did not even spare even a single dollar. Japan, UK, USA, Germany and France, Saudi Arabia are main donors to Pak. Even Saudi Arabia gives Pak free oil. All these Pakis conviniently forget.

    If China is such a good friend they why does Pakis always look to Japan and USA ? Its quite hilarious that PM Gilani made an appeal to waive all the loans taken by Pak so far since they are not in a position to pay back. I mean they credibility of Pak is so low. The only card is Pak holds is the nukes and the world doesnt want to see “SOMALIA WITH NUKES”. Without the aid from these countries Pak would have been a Somalia long back.

    Thanks,
    Yash.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ yash

    “Without the aid from these countries Pak would have been a Somalia long back.”

    thats the reason why i compared Pakistan with a cockroach. if suppose fortunately it woulnt have got any economic aid from any nation in the past decades, today it would have been in ravages. its the economic and all other types of aid , thats the leftover food that this cockroach called Pakistan gets, and its only because of this it has thrived till today. Pakistan has got nothing of its own to be proud of.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dear Yash,

    US and NATO are using Pakisan for its own sake and Pakistan is milking them in the form of aid. Saudi’s have also stopped free oil for Pakistan because of mistrust or otherwise and why pakistan has not looked at China in its crumbling circumstances I’m sorry I wont be answering in this forum.

    Thanks,

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    Interesting, proud but slightly misplaced mail from Atul.
    Population explosion, cheap labour may be attractive in todays world but may not bring false glory in 20 years time.

    Good luck if you feel like flying high sir and want to ignore the ground realities. We can live our lives what are we leaving behind for our future generations? This is the questions that we need to ask ourselves.

    If India has got rich now and got rid of the “two oldest professions” of the world and the disease of Aids that might be related to one then good luck and congratulations to our neighbours.

    Lest rise above Jai Hind or Pakistan Zinda Abad. It does not provide two square meals to a needy person.
    Lets think about humanity and the world.

    Peace to all and Jai Insaniyat!

    [Reply]

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Dr Nisar

    Agree that we all should work together for stability, prosperity etc..

    However, Pakistan’s history has been one of destruction and violence. They want our help when they are in trouble. They promote hatred against India in their school text books.

    The history says they cannot be counted on; they are double speakers and cheaters. Mushruff was planning Kargill attack when his prime ministerw as assuring Bill Clinton that Pakistan will not engage in any military adventures.

    So, it is a tough thing. How do you get along with them when they have not demonstrated any integrity in the past. May be we should wait till they have a true democratic system and the army becomes a normal army.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Raju,

    Of all the situations while talking to our neighbours I find most hatered against Pakistan while talking to people on this forum. No where in my whole education career was I told or preached hatered against India. Unfortunately, we have fought four times and the brutalities against each other at the time of independence has left a mark in the heart and minds.

    [Reply]

    Sanjay rakesh Reply:

    Hi dr.Amir,
    I am impressed and halve been looking for some sane voices to come out of Pakistan .I totally agree with you .let us all get these Americans and everyone out of our region and just work on improving the quality of life in south east Asia .just work together to eradicate all the problems facing both the countries .if for instance we stop the big budgets of army in our countries we could both be investing that budget in improving the life of our citizens rather than fighting each other, as this the ploy which is being used by the power,s USA and china and Uk to subjugate and listen to their agendas rather then working for south east asi s a whole.if for instance we open our borders nd let free trade blossom between each other perhaps it will help both the countries economically and free flow of doctors , engineers etc…etc.. Imagine?
    Sanjay

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    My dear respected Raju,

    I live in UK. I studied in Pakistan and I have never read even one thing against India in our text books. Its not correct that we teach or preach against India or Hindus.
    However sometimes we hear that in India anti Pakistan teaching goes on. THis could be as wrong as the first rumour.

    Generally ordinary Pakistanis have fascination and open heartedness towards India and Indians or the least no animosity. I am not saying that they love everything about India as they they do not love everything about Pakistan either.

    Kargil was a disgrace and no Pakistani supports or endorses this .
    I wonder why it happened? Could this be the super powers who did not want these countries to get together. Their loss would have been a loss of a huge market where they sell their weapons.
    One F16 plane costs more money than Gold weighed against the weight of the aircraft. Do we need this and for what?

    What have Pakistan destroyed so far?

    Living in Europe we drive through the countries without realising the border. Its difficult to say that these countries sacrificed millions of people and lost their kingdoms and are living in harmony with each other and their ordinary people are benefiting.

    I have many Indian friends. Lots of them have helped me and I have helped many.

    Many of my good friends have returned to India and I have done my best to train them so that they can serve the people of India who are no different than the people of Pakistan!
    The blood groups, the body, thoughts and aspirations are the same.
    They share the same joys and sorrows and the grinds of the daily life.

    I do not say that any one should have mercy on the others. India is doing well now and we hope that their continued progress will be good and long term. Pakistan did well in the past but is struggling now but the times and the tides do change.

    I am not a person who was always like that. I was a passionate nationalist in Pakistan.
    Here in Europe I realised that by being emotional we are loosing out a lot. This hatred will give us nothing.
    Our politicians and the other forces from outside would love to have this status quo, where as our well wishers would like better relations.

    I am a surgeon and see life and death every day. To me a human is very precious, whatever the colour, religion and race. His/her emotions are even more precious.

    I can assure you that many of your everyday life heros are my heros too!

    Love to all
    Amir

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    Why dont you read the reports from your own countries about the inaccuracies and hatred they promote in the text books.

    These are written by eminent persons.
    Just google it and you will find them.

    The concept of Pakistan is a disgrace to humanity.
    Forming a religious based country (only Muslims can be president) and committing genocide on Bengalis (3 million killed), constantly plotting to bring down neighbors…

    all of these are a disgrace..
    When Indian PM goes to pakistan for peace, back stab him.
    This act itself will never be forgotten by indians for a long time.

    Let us be just indifferent neighbors first..

    This infighting is making every power in the world take advantage.
    Soviets first, Americans later, now even chinese..

    I guess it is the hatred coming from Islam and brainwashing done by mollahs.
    The sad thing is before islam came to this region, it was one of the most peaceful with Buddhists and Hindus co-existing..

    Islamism as an idealogy will die from internal inconsistenices and will explode internally very soon. Then we can expect peace to return, like it was pre-islam..

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    So like coming of islam was the real distruction of sub continent as if there was no blood shed in the region. All this Alexander making the mark against Raja Porus and Ram and Ravan fighting was because of Islam. I admire your knowledge. Grow up!

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    A Pakistan entangkled in its onw owes is perfect for India . we have had peaceful border whenver that situation has continued on other side of the border.

    So here is wishing Pakistan a long drawn battle with taliban with huge collateral damage particularly in army ranks.. Demoralised army in Waziristan is good even for pakistan civilian government and since we love democray so we wish failure for **** army.

    Paritosh Reply:

    @Dr Nisar

    the sermons that you preach to all of us would have been justified if in case India also had been sending suicide bombers and terrorists in Pakistani cities killing hundreds of pakis. but let me recommend that instead of preaching all those things of love friendship and brotherhood why cant you first acknowledge the fact that it was your got damn Pakistan that has kept the enmity alive. in order to elaborate my point i will present it point wise.

    1) 1971 war instigated by you pakis
    2) in the 1993 bomb blasts your govt was the one to help the perpetrators to make detonators.
    3) instigating Kargill war
    4)all the terrorist attacks in early 2000s aided by Pakistani govt.
    5) major role in 26/11

    please do read carefully what i have written , introspect what dark deeds your nation has done and then ask yourself whether is it justified for us to forget the enmity.

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    I rest my case with my first question on this forum.
    What legacy are you leaving behind for your future generations?

    The emotions and wishes that you expressed in your mail show that you are young. Look after yourself. One day you will rise above this and will look beyond being an Indian and that will be much more positive for India and the world.

    If you do not, rest assured that there are still many out there who do.

    Have a nice day my friend and please look after the friends and fellows.

    Peace and prosperity to all despite their race, religion or beliefs.

    Amir

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    My friends on the forum,

    This is my last attendance on the forum.

    Thank you for being so patient, polite and understanding.

    Peace and Love to all

    Have a nice day, week and year to come.

    Amir

    [Reply]

    Atul Reply:

    Indeed a pity that you have decided to exit this forum.

    Personally, I will miss your perspectives, and a chance to debate on other Indo Pak issues.

    Be well, sir, and be at peace.

    [Reply]

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dr Sahab,

    This discussion forum needs a mature person like you. You should re think and pay a visit on this forum.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    maturity does not exclude bias.

    Truth should be told as is, not hide under blasphemy..
    Ever wonder why, among all the religions only Muslims need laws for blasphemy, …
    They have so many ugly things to hide and need all this protection from criticism..

    Musharaff is also mature, but he used his skills to deceive and attack india.
    We do not need biased people..
    They are just here to promote all idiotic things in Sharia and we dont need them..

    Hafez Saeid is also mature professor, who just want to exterminate Hindus.
    (I am sure we can trace his fore fathers as Hindus)

    [Reply]

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Dr Nisar,
    I host this blog and in that capacity request you sincerely that you keep visiting. People like you need to be heard and emulated.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @Dr Amir Nisar a.k.a jealous ****

    You may think that we Indians are flying high in the sky on the account of our economic developement, we are proud for sure but we dont like to get high like you Pakistanis who havent achieved anything in 62 years but think something else of themselves. You were hesitant to mentioned the so called world’s two oldest professions , well they are prostitution and killing, so dont act as though if they dont exist in Pakistan. Corruption and ll practices exist in every part of the world, but surely they are more in Pakistan than in India. you talk about humanity and welfare of the future generations , but what Pakistan stands for is a shame for human race. today where you are , only because of your own deeds. there is no doubt we are superior than you pakis

    [Reply]

  • yash

    To All the Pakis,

    Frankly speaking most of us Indians dont really care as to what becomes of Pakistan. All we want is for Pak to stop sending in murderers to our nation. Otherwise we dont have anything to do with Pak. It is almost non-existent. What matters to India are the countries like USA with whom we have trade relations. And I think the same thing will apply for Pak vis a vi India. If Pak stops sending in murderers and just concentrates on its internal affairs then I think India and Pak can co-exist as in-different neighbours. India doesnt need Pak in anyway.

    [Reply]

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Yash,
    Pl speak for yourself. I really wonder what empirical data do you have to cite in support of your sweeping claim that “most Indians” don’t care as to what becomes of Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Anil Kumar Reply:

    Well what data you have to contrary in that case.. You are tryign to shove your opinion as universal he is trying to shove his.. But oen thing is clear Indian in general certainly know what pakistan stands for and being a human they are bound to have feeling based on that.. So gopign by logic your starry eyed picturization seems illogical as opposed to hsi realist stand

    [Reply]

    Dr Amir Nisar Reply:

    To my very fine and refined friend Atul,

    Dear Sir,

    I can not debate with you about India and Pakistan despite your wish as I only see your strengths and no weaknesses and for myself I only see my weakness and no strength what so ever.

    If we ever had a chance to meet then I would love to take you out for dinner or even supper at my place and I am sure that we will find many common grounds to enjoy our company. Life is too short to agree to disagree.

    I would like to ask you about my favourite cricketer Rahul David and favourite actors.

    Respect and love

    Amir

    Atul Reply:

    Dear Dr Nisar,

    Nice to hear from you.

    However, debate we must. Not to rattle proverbial sabres and win jousts.

    But more as a duty to disseminate certain thought processess that may help enlarge perspectives of readers who are interested in a broader understanding. And it is not a matter that the thought processess are right or wrong. Its a matter that there exists another perpective.

    Thank you for your invitation, and Inshaallah, we shall meet when I am next in the UK. Rather than exchange email on this forum, at the opportune time, I will request Vinod for your email id, and establish contact with you.

    best wishes

    Sam Reply:

    why do you have to use “Inshaallah”, unless you really believe in Allah ?

    Why do Hindus bend over backwards, even when it is not needed ?

    ( i am not commenting on any particular person, but a culture in general trying to make the other person happy even at the cost of giving up their beliefs..)

    Atul Reply:

    Hi Sam,

    To me Inshallah is a more a colloquial term than a religious expression. I also tend to use the word “Amen” quite often when someone makes an impactful point.

    It also probably stems from the fact that my extended family has married into several religous faiths all across the world – Catholics, Protestants, Muslim, Zorastrian, Shinto, Jewish, and so on. Interacting with diverse faiths as family has been a significant learning for me, and continues even to this day.

    On my part, I am fairly secure in my spiritual, philosophical, religious & National grounding.

    So in my scheme of things, using terms like Inshallah, Amen, Mazeltov are a celebration of the spirit ( that I can identify with ) of expression in various cultures.

    yash Reply:

    the website of Subhash Palekar is

    palekarzerobudgetnaturalfarming DOT COM

    Thanks,
    Yash

    [Reply]

    YASH Reply:

    the feeling is mutual

    [Reply]

  • yash

    Vinod,

    Come on. After seeing the manner in which innocent kids and womens were mowed down by the **** ******** and the way they are dragging their feet about prosecuting the mass murderer Hafiz Saeed who sent these murderers can any Indian can have good feeling about Pakistan. Let them go to hell..who cares. I dont have any sympathy for the dying Pakis. Its an intelluctally retarded country. There was this survey by Dawn.com and it found that majority of the Pakis think that 9/11 was perpetrated by Americans to attack Muslim countries and 26/11 was perpetrated by India to attack Pakistan !!!!!

    if you want to romantisize the relation with Pak go ahead and do it. Historically speaking the pakis understand the language of Indira Gandhi better than Atal and MMS.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    Hi my dear friends,

    As a matter of respect to some fine fellows like Vinod I will return to this blog.

    Since I left the blog I saw some hostile mails. I hope that I have not stirred this. If so then I apologise to all for causing this grief.
    This is a new face my Indian friends that I never saw when I met and made my many Indian friends in UK.
    We must rise above all this and move forward.

    Some of the mails show clear animosity and frustration.
    Is this a ‘chip on a shoulder’ position or a realistic, honest and unbiased critique?

    I see wish for peace, claims of decency, hope to inflict destruction on other humans and abusive language. All-in-one mail!

    This may all have many explanations but no justification.

    Specially when you claim to belong to superior, rich, noble, peaceful and powerful race.

    I like Gandhi as he was a man of principles and stood by his promises and words. He is the best face of Bharat.

    I must reiterate that for a person living in Pakistan his real problem is not India, rather the people in Pakistan around him, the same applies to the Indians.

    Our life span is very limited, some people are like Ashoka and Sher Shah Suri, others may be less effective in their life spans.
    Its very easy to make enemies, ridicule and insult but it takes some courage to be generous, to bridge differences and to make friends.

    We are free to choose our paths and we must do so as a human being.

    Love and Peace to you all.

    Amir

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @ Dr Amir Nisar a.k.a Pakistani doper

    “We must rise above all this and move forward.”

    this is a pure exemplification of typical Pakistani double talk. you bloody pakis carry out series of terrorist attacks in our nation kiliing thousands of our people, you trade counterfeit currency notes in our country, you commit atrocities on minority Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan falsely accusing us of all the crimes how the heck do you expect us to forget and forgive??!!

    the talk of peace and humanity from your mouth seems like garbage and dirty water pouring out from a sewer pipe. so instead of talking nonsense why dont you just acknowledge the truth. as Yash said, we dont have to do anyhting what you pakis do our waht happens to you.

    regards,
    Paritosh

    [Reply]

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Paritosh,
    It is quite evident from your language that you want Dr Amir to quit visiting this blog. All that I can say is that you are being extremely undemocratic and rude. So long as I hold the patent to this blog, I’d do anything to attract the variety of ideas that enrich a discussion. I’m afraid you haven’t added value to the debate the way Atul does so often.

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @ Vinod a.k.a the “epitome of democracy and liberalism”

    what you really mean to add value to this debate is to agree with whatever views you, liberals like you ( say Mr Atul) or the Pakistani visitors, present before us. it is truly difficult for other Indians to wake you liberals from your dream of Utopian Indo-Pak friendship world. it has no logic or any practical base.

    [Reply]

    yash Reply:

    Dear Vinodji and all Pak friends,

    Its quite difficult to hate any human being and it doesnt come naturally. But the comments over there
    Reflect the sheer frustration that we are feeling about the school of thought that prevails in Pakistan. I mean dont look at 26/11 in isolation. Prior to 26/11, there have been 100’s of incidents of Pakis murderers indulging in mass killings in India. Is ones patience infinite ?

    Doesn’t one develop aversion towards Pakistan seeing the violence they are perpetuating in India over the last 20 years ?

    Look we have problems with China also. But do they send murderers to our country like Pak ? Has India refused to discuss Kashmir with Pak ?

    Pak is the only nation that sends murderers to neighboring countries. Of course we had our LTTE moments but we acknowledged our mistake and we helped Srilanka eliminate the mess we created. But Pak refuses to see any sense and any guy who kills Westerners and India is protected and supported by the establishment. For example Hafiz was reported to be dining with a corps commander some 1 month back. So whats the point in talking to them when irrespective of what you do they will keep on sending mass murderers. I mean how can you deal with backward looking, intellectually retarded barbarians?

    We Indians want to get with our life. We have other pressing problems like decreasing farm productivity, population explosion, unemployment rather than to wake up every morning and find some bloody **** running amok and killing our women and kids.

    Its just that people like Vinodji doesn’t understand our frustration.

    NOTE: This is a bit off topic. Off late one can see rising prices of food grains but the irony is farmer is not making any money and is in everlasting debt. This is courtesy due to green revolution. The input cost is high and fertility of the soil is decreasing with every passing year due to incessant use of chemicals. Its about time to have a holistic view at the entire methodology. I take this opportunity to promote “NATURAL WAY OF FARMING” OR ZERO COST FARMING in which input costs are low and yield is high. I personally come across many farmers who have benefitted from this. I request all of you to go through the link whenever you find time and share the same with others. Mr Subhash Palekar has dedicated his life to find a way to help the farmers and has inspired thousands of farmers across the country to grow crops in a way that is consistent with Mother Nature. No chemicals are used. The entire thing revolves around one native cow and emphasis is to use local seeds. The output is higher in quantity and nutrition. The link is as below

    Thanks,
    Yash.

    Atul Reply:

    Yash, the link please… cant find it in your post. Thanks

    Atul Reply:

    Hi Paritosh (in anticipation of Vinod’s permission),

    In any debate, sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. But we keep learning.

    If you seperate the emotion from your thought process, it will help us understand your point better.

    There is no disrespect intended for what you feel. But please give us a chance to hear you.

    Thanks

    yash Reply:

    Dr Amir Nasir,

    Very carefully you are skirting the issue. The main issue is Pak Army is sending murderers to our nation. First Pak has to address that.

    The source of infinite hatred lies in your country. You go to Pak and try to educate your countrymen that sending murderers to neighbourhood is a bad thing.

    Why are you accusing us of hatred. We have bore the brunt of your wretched nations activities for more than 20 years now. What do you expect ?

    Thanks,
    Yash.

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Paritosh,
    English is a beautiful language where you can make your point tellingly, without being offensive or abusive. Every person has his own way of getting across the message. I’ve always believed that
    the one to whom it’s addressed stops listening if we are unduly shrill or loud.
    I’m not wishing it for you Paritosh. But you seem to be running the risk of losing your audience. And by that I mean not those who agree with you. But those who disagree.

    Dr Amir Nisar Reply:

    Surprise, surprise!! Three mails the same and similar phrases in the messages as usual.

    My dear friends please wake up and stop being so sulky.

    Its that *** for tat that has gone on a bit too long between the two countries.
    If you are telling me that India is the victim and has been innocent through out then its a very simplistic view!

    I am not preaching anything that I do not believe in. You are independent people with your own opinions and thoughts. You choose the path that is the best for you and your generations.

    I do not want grace or favors from you for my country. The rule of the game is that the fittest survive.If my beloved and the most beautiful country on the face of the earth is strong enough then Insha Allah it will survive. Its peace loving, lovely and strong character people will Insha Allah do well in the years to come and I hope that it will overcome its tough phase and will come out stronger in resolve and will be an envy of the whole region. I will not mention India here as I have expressed my wishes and beliefs in my messages before.

    Humanity is above all the divides and we must rise above our prejudices to work towards humanity.

    My friends you once again got it wrong as I had written my previous mail with the intentions to write any more on the forum.

    I am not here to argue or convince. Just to have a heart to heart talk. Which I and you have done and its enough. I opened my heart with all my honesty and so did you. Its not a point scoring game but a serious attempt to show you that its not hatred but love that makes this world a better place.

    This is truly the last time that you will hear from me and that I will visit this site ever.

    Good luck to you in all your ventures. I hope that one day you will read what you have written here and reflect on this with an open mind and all honesty.

    All the best.

    Love to all the beautiful and nice people of India.

    Amir

    (Never to return to the blog again)

    [Reply]

    vinod Reply:

    Dear Dr Amir,
    Why should you let some parthological hawks (with no sense of balance) who visit this blog to hound you out? Just ignore them and keep writing the way you do. I for one would feel greatly defeated if you stick to your decision to never return to this blog again.

    Sam Reply:

    another Amir who can stand up to face some harsh truths..
    so far most people in the world were nice to Islam..
    now slowly after realizing the deception, the real truth is coming about the hate Koran generates for Kuffars..

    Sam Reply:

    sorry
    “another Amir who cannot stand up to face some harsh truths”

    Shah Alam Khan Reply:

    Dear Dr. Amir,
    Great to see your discourse (albeit one sided) on Vinod ji’s blog. In fact the hatred which is spilled here is in no way a representation of India we live in. These guys would jump on me (more so because of my name) and pin me down with their rhetoric of hate but in the end I would again reiterate that my India is not what these people represent. Being a doctor in the busiest hospital of the country I meet an average of hundred Indians every day. Never do they differentiate and hate in a manner as it might be suggestive from these forum. Having said this, there is a definite grudge against Pakistan (surely not against Pakistanis) and the agenda which it follows in de-stabilizing India. I presume it’s this game of coercion which draws such an hateful response from a handful of people. But we still have doves like Vinod Sharma ji and the message of peace is loud and clear. I have communicated with Atulji in the past and I am sure he will entertain you when you meet him in London! Anyway keep the flame of peace burning. Only peace can make a difference and most Indians like me are certain of this fact.
    Truly,
    Dr. Shah Alam Khan
    All India Institute of Medical Sciences, New Delhi

    Usman Chaudhry Reply:

    Dear Dr Nisar,

    With due respect! Why do you need to reply for such pathetic comments? where every other argument ends up with muslims, Islam and Pakistan! Most of us over here have faith and believe in your words and we can feel your presence on the blog through your fragrance.

    Like Vinod ji I would also feel dejected if you would not make a re visit. Please contribute and be it a little more then just love sermons. I believe some have the right to go around, beat about the bush but thats nothing compared to your deep affection and love.

    For Others,
    I would make sure that I WILL contribute to this believe that no other human being is disturbed from Pakistan (especially Indians). I will try to create awareness of what went wrong in creating a gulf of relationships between Indo-Pak and how can we narrow it.

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    Dear friends form a great country,

    Namastey to all

    Its interesting to come home after a very busy days work and see some friends getting upset and and others putting some perspective and reasoning in our discussions.

    A discussion and conversation is different than just explosive display of frustration, anger and accusations thrown in air. I expect more depth in the level of discussion on this forum and rational discussions.

    Why did Gandhi win, was that because of such language or his open, all embracing and liberal approach?
    I hope that a Pakistani is not lecturing to Indians on Gandhi Giri, Shanti and non violence !!

    Dear Atul please do get my email and let me know when you come here. I would like to meet you and possibly invite some Pakistani and Indian friends and we can have a nice dinner and discussion. We will be keen to listen to you. We do have a India Pakistani friendship forum here and our President is an Indian and I love his company and ideas. Its is one way of looking at it. If the other friends are offended by many many things then they have point as well and every right to feel so express it what ever way they like.

    Yes you have a right to call me and my country what ever they like. I did not feel bad about it at all as I am enjoying this debate and the harsh approach used by some on this forum.

    I am pleased that I have not used the comfort of my own territory or the benefited from anonymity of the lap top screen to hurl abuses.
    I always like to discuss, share thoughts and ideas, to convince and get convinced.

    I will again ask my first question to Sams and Yashs of the forum; What legacy are they leaving behind for their generations to come?

    My friends, love and peace to you all.

    Amir

    [Reply]

    Paritosh Reply:

    @Dr Nisar

    atleast not that legacy that you pakis have left for your generations. i wont mind if my countrymen impart hate hate for you scoundrels in the minds of their children. this is the thing that you rightfully deserve.

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    What legacy is Pakistan leaving ?

    Not a single Hindu is a writer/columnist in any English paper.
    President cannot be Hindu.

    Blasphemy, rape laws, 2woman=1man, jihad, global terrorism, sucking upto china/usa…
    constant plots to bomb everyone in the world….genocide in bangladesh…

    This whole thing about forming a religious state where others are “cleansed” is a retrograde step and disgusting thing in human history…

    [Reply]

  • yash

    Let the Pakis do to China and USA what they are doing to India and lets see what legacy does Pakis leave to the future generation

    [Reply]

  • http://www.rediff.com Paritosh

    @Dr Nisar

    atleast not that legacy that you pakis have left for your generations. i wont mind if my countrymen impart hate for you scoundrels in the minds of their children. this is the thing that you rightfully deserve.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Amir Nisar

    Dear friends,

    In India do you not reply to Namastey? I that case Good morning – or afternoon as its must be that time in the great country.

    Hate brings destruction. Destruction to both parties.

    Why would you make the lives of your loved ones difficult and painful? Life is to live and not to drag. It seems that you guys are not only living painfully but would like your children to continue the same.
    If I had some problems myself the least I would wish for my children will be to give them a fresh start.

    These guys who do all these horrible atrocities are not the ones who come on blogs and reason.

    If an individual has any depth (Zaraf/ character) then he should accept any bit of respect shown to him and act graciously.

    You must have seen the sugar cane (Gunna) used in our countries for juice on the road side. The “Roo Wala” squeezes it so many times that there is no juice, colour, falvour or sweetness left. When this “Phok” (pulp) is thrown on the street even the flies do not sit on this and the dogs do not bother to smell.

    There is no curse on human race bigger than hatred and jealousy. This makes us hurt and kill others physically or mentally.
    Who ever does it for what ever reason, religion or nationalism descends below the line of humanity.

    While on this forum I had the lovely fragrance of love and friendship from some great minded people. I have noted some “squeezed out gunna/ gunderies (sugar cane) mindedness as well.

    I think that these people have no target or goal and they will just carry on their three lines start-middle and end on hurling abuse.

    I am sure that they must be well educated and groomed representatives of the community and country.

    I am sure that they will not cause similar grief to their next generation. I am sure that one day they will realise the difference in “Gunna” and “Phok” and choose to be what ever they consider themselves be worthy of. This is their individual struggle.
    As far as the countries and people are concerned I am hopeful that they are mostly human and love peace and harmony for this and future generations.

    Dear VinodJee and Atul and many many decent silent friends. Respect, Love and Peace to you all.

    Dear Yashes, Paritoshes, and Sams of the forum and the world. Respect, Love and Peace to all of you as well.

    Long live the two countries, the whole world and humanity.

    My sincerest apologies if I have hurt someone.

    I look forward to meet any friends ever visiting here.

    I will continue to follow VinodJees blog with keen interest in future as well.

    Namestey sam, Paritosh and Yash.

    Amir

    [Reply]

    Sam Reply:

    first address the hate in pakistan.
    I have written several things, where there is so much hatred in pakistan.

    Why are ahmadiyyas not muslim, why are shia’s bombed, why are balochs killed, why are pathans used as fodder in afghanistan….

    after that, start writing, about the rest of islamist jihadists..

    ( I get, where you are going to take this discussion..)
    dont try to do your dua, by claiming peace and islam is peace and all that pious islamic garb..)

    [Reply]

  • yash

    oh yeah…. feeling aggrieved when one loses the closed ones is “PARTHOLOGICAL”. I wonder whether he would have said the same, when some one close to him would have been a casualty in the numberous murderous incidents that Pak army has perpetuated in India….

    [Reply]

    vinod Reply:

    Incorrigible. That’s what you are. No more response to your interventions from my side.

    [Reply]

  • http://tradersutra.com h mani

    DR AMIN NISSAR,THIS MY FIRST BLOG IN H/T AND USUALLY WRITE IN TOI AND HUFFINTON POST,AND SOMETIME IN YAHOO,I GET VERY FRUSTERATED SOMETIME AT THE BAD BLOOD BITWEEN HINDU/MUSLIM-INDO/PAK ,YOU ARE A COMPASENATE SURGEON,IT COMES IN YOUR WRITING,BUT YOU HAVE TO SEE INDIAN HOSTILITY IN THAT PERCEPT,I LIVING IN U.S FOR 45 YEARS HAVE CHANGED A LOT AND I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS IN U.S FROM PAKISTAN,AND THEY ARE NOTHING LIKE BACK HOME,I’M SO IMPRESSED THAT I WANT TO SEE PAKISTAN FIRST HAND,I’M A U.S PASSPORT HOLDER AND MY DREAM WILL COME TRUE,MY URDU TALIM OF OSMANIA WILL COME HANDY.I’M BRAHMIN BY BIRTH BUT IF I SAID I’M ANWAR SHIKH,YOU WILL BELIEVE IT.I DON’T CLAIM TO KNOW WHY THERE SO MUCH HATRED,POOR SANIA THE TENNIS PLAYER,BUT HOPE ETERNAL MUST BURN ALWAYS,GIVING IN TO DISPAIR DOES NOT LOOK GOOD ON YOU,TRY TO CHANGE OPINION IN INCREMENT AND BE CHRIST LIKE.DID FDR,HONEST ABE STRUGGLE TO BRING CHANGE,WE MUST ALL DO OUR SHARE,I WOULD JUST WRITE AND AVOID DEBATE WITH PEOPLE.PEOPLE ARE BULL HEADED AND IF PRESSED ,DIG THEIR HEEL IN FIRST LESSON BY DALE CARNEGIE IN CLASS.HOPE I CHANGED YOUR MIND,HOPE DIES LAST,THEY SAY,AS TO OSMAN CHOWDARY,YOU ARECIVIL AND POLITE BUT YOU HAVE LONG WAY GO IN YOUR FACTS,I DO NOT HOW OLD YOU ARE,MUST READ MORE AND DIVERSE CHANNEL OF THREADS OF THOUGHT,BUT I ‘M HOPEFUL ABOUT YOU AND SOME PEOPLE WHO WROTE IN H/T,SAME APPLY TO THEM,TRY TO FIND A WORKABLE SOLUTIONS,ANYONE CAN FIND PROBLEMS.HAVE A GOOD DAY ALL.PEACE,UM!!not really i’m no dalai lama.

    [Reply]