Blacken their faces for a public ride



I am not a great fan of Congress leader Renuka Choudhary. She comes out as a leader completely confused on most of the issues. But the compassion and the passion with which she suggested ‘parading the culprits with their faces blackened and heads shaved’ compelled me to think over it. I was also impressed when she said in the Lok Sabha that we cannot allow the Delhi gangrape case to turn into a statistic. May be the punishment of social ostracisation will work till the time the people sitting in power enact laws to hang rapists.

I heard Sushma Swaraj forcefully pleading for the same in the Lok Sabha. But is that enough? When did we last see any politician visit the bereaving family members? When did we last hear Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi, BJP giant Lal Krishna Advani, youth icons like Rahul Gandhi, Akhilesh Yadav, Sukhir Singh Badal and Omar Andullah take up such burning social issues? The politicians, when outside parliament, merely give bytes on the camera and that’s the end of their duty towards the society.

Compare the scenario with United States. The US President Barak Obama had time to attend the memorial service for the 28 victims including 20 children in Connecticut. I would like to quote him here. “No single law, no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that can’t be an excuse for inaction.” Our politicians are too caught up in the their divisive politics to find time to make such home visits, to share the grief and show their resolve to stamp out such crimes.

Yes ‘inaction’, for which our country is becoming notorious. Perhaps the government should cross-check its record to know how many rapists have been punished enough, how many times senior citizens have been battered and children abused with no action whatsoever against the perpetrators of crime.

Parliament condemned the rape on a moving bus in Delhi; it may announce some compensation also, but is that enough? This is not the first incident of its kind. Everyday, someone, somewhere in the country is raped and murdered.

It’s time to ponder over what has gone wrong. The fear of law has disappeared. This needs to be reinforced irrespective of connections and clouts, and this can be done by meting out spine-chilling punishments.

I know many may condemn me suggesting the same but it’s time we have a re-look at our serials and the cinema also. It’s not the semi clad actors gyrating their bodies to suggestive songs, it is to do with the respect for women. How do we expect people to respect them when they see her only as an item number or a scheming over-dressed doll and now as ‘chudail’ ( evil vamp) in serials?

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  • engrich

    Will Gilani survive the judicial tsunami?

    Will Gilani survive the judicial tsunami?

    no no.another pm will be appointed,game is continue upto october.then upper house elections will be finisded.he will fix his people at right places.then new elections will be declared.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Alignment between Military and Judiciary against Democracy is not good for India.

    One hopes that Gilani will survive, if the basic equation in Pakistan has to change.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~~~ ZARDARI & GILANI ARE THE TWO KAFIRS ~~ for ISI and army ~~ !!
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    The duo of Zardari and Gilani have done the unthinkable. In a state where the Army was supreme and the ISI the queen of the Army, Zardari and Gilani committed apostasy. By willing to sell the ISI to the US in memogate.

    The evil empire of the Pak Army and the ISI is now striking back thru the judiciary. Times have gone where Pakistan could have passed another coup as seasonal Pakistani wedding :)

    Now they need the dollars and international support as never before. So the Army will probably toss of Zardari and Gilani and replace them with Imran and Shah qureshi over a period of time.

    On hindishgt, the Zardari- gilani combination was the best India could have hoped for.

    Imran has been called Taliban without beard by Musharraff, who should know a lot.

    Sadly his ascenscion would be welcomed by our media thinking one of them– an English speaking Oxonion has climbed the throne. But then Imran would do what he did in gthe 80’s Sharjah matches.

    Some ball tampering, some help from Dawood. And then a full fledged confrontation with India.

    Sadly he would be cheered by a fawning India media all the time….

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    This despicable post got lost in the tirade over reservations and merits a repeat airing.

    Singulate, you can also be called doubulate.

    this post takes the cake for doublespeak.

    You have very cleverly given the cover of rationalism and humanism, both of which are fake when it concerns you.

    SCs and STs already enjoy reservations at the entry level as well as in promotions, in central as well as state services. Therefore, you seem to be rationalising reservations for Muslims, comparing them to the blacks of the US, which is absurd, illogical and pervert.

    By no stretch of imagination the two can be compared.

    1. Blacks have never been the rulers of US, Muslims have ruled India for more than 500 years.

    2. Blacks never asked for and got a homeland of their own from the white colonisers, whereas, in India, Muslims fought for and got for themselves Pakistan, the land of the pure.

    3. Muslims were never enslaved, treated like slaves or otherwise discriminated against, unlike the blacks.

    4. Blacks never resorted to conversion of the whites, whereas the Muslims are even now converting Hindus to IUslam.

    The post is not surprising, lack of response to it is.

    India has not been ruled by Muslims for hundreds of years, however they still seem to rule B. V. Shenoy’s pea brain.

    So because Muslims at one point in our history ruled India, then ALL present day Muslims, including Tamil and Malyalam ones, should be the subject of revenge discrimination.

    The fact that some Muslims foolishly separated themselves into an unsustainable new nation, then those who chose to stay in India, should be discriminated, victimised and dominated by the majority.

    The old Golimarkar’s RSS could not have stated this garbage better.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have never met any Sikhs whose heart bleeds for muslims like Ravi’s heart. What a wonderful sikh!!! The religion of Islam is blessed to have sympathisers ;) like ravi.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    revelation of islam was the biggest gift of almighty to humanity.i have seen hundreds of sikhs whose heart beats for muslims including guru nanak jee.and ofcourse our great praajee.his right hand man was mastana,a muslims.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev, for the jihadi-loving congressi troll, it is ‘garbage in, garbage stays put. Result: verbal diarrhea. And acute pain in the joints due to excessive clapping.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    Right on.

    1) The RSS and its apologists have become ‘tech-savvy’ = ‘Garbage In, Garbage Out’

    2) The RSS, to justify its existence and relevance, needs enemies. All that social and public service is only a cover-up for its nefarious agenda.

    L K Advani’s first ‘rath yatra’ was an exercise to tell the world, who their (RSS’) enemy was.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    It is not “some Muslims” who foolishly separated themselves’. More than 70 millions of them cannot be termed as “some Muslims”, except by fakes like you.

    Your bleeding heart, understandably, cannot see beyond your jihadi nose. And understandably too, the congrssi troll is doing the regulation clapping for your jihadi sentiments.

    The idea of Pakistan’s ‘unsustainability’ was proved by Indira Gandhi and Gen Aurora in 1971. It is only in recent times that your jihad has sealed the fate of that rogue state.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Banana State or what!
    Maulayam has promised 1) 1000 Rsf for unemployed t youth 2) free electricity to weavers and farmers 3) Free medical care (including medicines)

    A state of monkeys led by a big monkey Hanuman (no pun intended)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    What else is new?

    The political parties in Tamil Nadu in particular and in other states keep promising freebies. Subsidies in another ‘avatar’. No need to get angry about? It has always been seasons of ‘free lunches’.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    what is wrong creators of wealth should be helped.confiscation of dead money from temples and dargahs and blanket ban on river bath should be added to agenda.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Ravi,

    Here we are not talking about Discrimination of Muslims, but REVERSE discrimination ( Reservations). Do we have any law which discriminates Muslims on the basis of their religion. Reservations to all other communities is on the basis of assumption that they are backwards as they were discriminated in past.Have Muslims been discriminated in past on the basis of religion? Can we make any such presumptions? Even in areas where Hindu rulers were there, Muslims did not suffer discrimination.

    There is no provision for Reservation on the basis of religion in our constitution.Infact if this criteria is selected, then Hindus and Buddhists should get reservation as they were badly discriminated in 600-700 years of Islamic rule. There is documentary evidence to support this. Evidence which comes from Muslim writers and Historians.

    I think Mr Shenoy has given very clear and valid reasons.We shiy away from stating these reasons. There is a tendency in so called intellectual circle to make politically correct statements even when they are hopelessly incorrect statements. Like all religions are same, or all religions preach peace.

    Muslim backwardness is self inflicted. It stems from there philosophy and not from any environmental discrimination. Any govt help on economic considerations should be and shall be applicable to them. Muslims have to study , particularly their girls/ women. Infact , if any reservation is to be given, let it be given to Muslim girls/women as they are the most discriminated lot.They are discriminated by Muslim society on the basis of their gender. In their case, there seems to be a valid justification.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke Sir,

    Discrimination is in our DNA. We tend to put others down to maintain our own status-quo. Long discrimination has resulted in Class divide. Tamil Nadu and Bihar saw uprise of lower caste in the power corridor.

    Wide struggle for identity leads to a winner-takes-all situation.

    And we saw that happening in those two states. Possibly in UP too.

    If you keep muslims aside and just look at the struggles happening in our Hindu sub-groups, you would know what’s happening.

    Dalits/SC/ST have been discriminated for thousands of years. And now they are making their presence felt.

    Who constitute the large populace in India?

    The Upper castes and elites / educated / rich or these socially disadvantage groups?

    How long would one keep these disadvantage groups away from the main stream ?

    It’s astonishing that we feel threatened by a little upward mobility of these disadvantage groups ! If we are so fragile even after having decades of natural advantages, then there is something wrong with our basic foundation.

    Please recognise the undercurrent of social dis-order. What we saw in Tamil Nadu, Bihar and UP can happen in every state.

    Inclusiveness is the key. We must adopt or perish.

    ["'Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.' MLK ]

    Does it ring any bell ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Prahlad,

    Frankly I have not been able to connect to your response.

    The point of discussion was very specific i.e “Whether reservations should be given to Muslims on the basis of religion”.Your response does not touch on this subject. Would request to be specific to this subject.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke Sir,

    I did not touch upon muslim angle as it’s too hot to handle and unnecessarily vitiates the atmosphere. Still I tried to answer the points. Allow me to be a little more specific.

    It depends how you look at Indian Muslims.

    I fully support what Mr Rizwan/Pervez ( not sure ) and Shenoy Sir said.

    1) …People who wanted to leave India..left in 1947.

    2) Indian Muslims have taken the guilt of partition on themselves…

    If you keep the sibling rivalry aside, you will find a majority of Indian muslims are at disadvantage position in today’s scenario. They are not in a position to join hands with rest of the Country to take advantage of the new and emerging India.

    They alongwith other disadvantage groups like Dalits/SC/ST need stimulus to come up to a reasonable level of competency.

    In last blog posting, I replied to Vijay Sir that it is difficult to identify “affected individuals” during a large flood situation before providing the relief. If you even try to attempt that, then you will lose out badly even if your intentions are good. So during flood, one takes the “cluster approach” for providing relief.

    Few get a little extra. But mostly the affected people get something.

    The situation in the country is almost similar.

    There are clusters in the country that can be seen from “aerial view” which are not connected to the main land in terms of sharing the opportunities.

    Some of these clusters happened to be largely habitated by muslims.

    They happened to be muslims because of their religion – Indian, nevertheless.

    [ To address your point on religion based clustering ]

    Take a macro view with a parental affection and not sibling rivalry.

    I am sure you would think differently.

  • Anonymous

    Dear Ravi,

    Here we are not talking about Discrimination of Muslims, but REVERSE discrimination ( Reservations). Do we have any law which discriminates Muslims on the basis of their religion. Reservations to all other communities is on the basis of assumption that they are backwards as they were discriminated in past.Have Muslims been discriminated in past on the basis of religion? Can we make any such presumptions? Even in areas where Hindu rulers were there, Muslims did not suffer discrimination.

    There is no provision for Reservation on the basis of religion in our constitution.Infact if this criteria is selected, then Hindus and Buddhists should get reservation as they were badly discriminated in 600-700 years of Islamic rule. There is documentary evidence to support this. Evidence which comes from Muslim writers and Historians.

    I think Mr Shenoy has given very clear and valid reasons.We shiy away from stating these reasons. There is a tendency in so called intellectual circle to make politically correct statements even when they are hopelessly incorrect statements. Like all religions are same, or all religions preach peace.

    Muslim backwardness is self inflicted. It stems from there philosophy and not from any environmental discrimination. Any govt help on economic considerations should be and shall be applicable to them. Muslims have to study , particularly their girls/ women. Infact , if any reservation is to be given, let it be given to Muslim girls/women as they are the most discriminated lot.They are discriminated by Muslim society on the basis of their gender. In their case, there seems to be a valid justification.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    muslims are pushed to poverty.u people are extremely narrow minded.any relief to poorest of poor of india is opposed on clumsy grounds.
    u people are really curse of this nation.dont leave any opportunity to hurt india and indians.

    [Reply]

    Khalidsiddq Reply:

    You are right when you say muslims are pushed to poverty and its because of 60years congress misrule and clumsy rule. Everybody knows that reservation will not help the community unless and until the community do not come out the mentality ‘fatwa’ and ‘jihad’. for fatwa and jihad the common muslim are not responsible only mullah are responsible and they need Turkey type treatment to uplift the muslim society as a whole.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    mentality ‘fatwa’ and ‘jihad’

    bullshit and wrong.till today cbi could not prove a single case against them.muslims are caught to make money.this is because of nexus between media police and political parties.
    in ramrajya of madhya pardesh ,one brhmn was caught 350 croes in his house.today one sharma one trivedi are caught by lokpal with 15 crores.they were low grade officers.i dont know what will happen when houses of minsters and chief minister are raided.

    engrich Reply:

    most of the fatwas are right ,there is no jehadi in india.it is hindu jehadi who are plundering and looting india from last 3000 years.destroying our rivers jungles forests and animal habitats.hidinf trillions in places of worship and making indians poor everyday.

    engrich Reply:

    There is no provision for Reservation on the basis of religion in our constitution

    change the constitution.in 65 years manythings and ground realities changes.
    reservation to backwards and dalits was a national bribe to stop them from leaving
    brhmncl slavery.they were asking seprate electorate and dalitistan.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Its fun to watch the political circus in the communally bigoted entity spawned by the communal criminal jinnah and also the discomfort of the dirty peddlers of the criminal entity here.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    he is ur darling only because he hurted the feelings of muslims.

    [Reply]

  • websitefordatingrich

    MillionaireLoveLinks.COMready for love?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Spineless Congress unable to uphold constitutional freedoms. Obliging mullahs is the name of the game. Shameful.
    ——-

    Salman Rushdie persuaded to stay away from Jaipur Literature Festival

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/Salman-Rushdie-persuaded-to-stay-away-from-Jaipur-Literature-Festival/articleshow/11517786.cms

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar Sir,

    What would you really choose between the presence of an individual in the literary festival vs serious law and order situation ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad

    The question is of constitutional rights. The governments are duty to bound to uphold them (make no mistake on this count). Failure to uphold them on grounds of law and order problem because of threats from some loony outfits is no excuse. If law and order cannot be maintained then they should not be in office in the first place.

    Who cares? The vast of majority of Indians have not heard of Salman Rushdie and most of those who have do not even know what his “crime’ is. To me it is a sequel to the M F Hussain saga and would not be the last.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar Sir,

    When large number of people are not aware what-the-crime-is, it actually leads to a difficult situation. People just flow along the mass hysteria [ we have seen many such incidents in recent times ].

    Anonymous Reply:

    That is the problem and it must not be.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar Sir,

    When we do not have time and inclination for the corrective measures, we can atleast take preventive measures.

    engrich Reply:

    rushdie should be allowed to come.this is a game to provide publicity to a muslim baiter.

    engrich Reply:

    most of those who have do not even know what his “crime’

    he has committed a big crime.especially when he says he is muslim.but 5 million pouds(that too in eighties) by penguine to
    write a bullshit is good bribr.neverthless muslims have forgotten .brhmnst media media remember this to provide publicity to him.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    Law and order ? When police can be sent to remove sleeping harmless people from Ramlila ground at midnight where a lady died
    and no one have been held accountable for that MURDER than I am
    sure this crowd also can be managed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    I invite you to watch the video of the Ramlila ground incident.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    What you want to say, since you have seen the video.?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    Law and order ? When police can be sent to remove sleeping harmless people from Ramlila ground at midnight where a lady died
    and no one have been held accountable for that MURDER than I am
    sure this crowd also can be managed.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    mf hussain did far less.goverment could not provide protection.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Still Congress is considered most secular party of India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Still Congress is considered most secular party of India.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Prhalad

    When are you replacing Manish Tewari?

    You certainly have a spin for everything the COngress does. Now that it has stopped Salman Rushdie from coming to India, you can give credit to it for respecting Muslim sentiments.

    I think it is shameful, sad a erevelation of COngress low thinking which seeks to censor the net, regulate facebook , ban Salman and then claim we are liberal !!

    Wah ji wah !! Macarthyism, Maoism, Kim Sung II ism and Rahulism is all one and the same thing….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    I am a small man. I do not have such high ambition.

    Your postings provoke me to give my opinion.

    By the way, you just mixed up too many issues. We can take up one at a time for brevity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Cmon !!

    I was just inspiring you to aim higher ! We people on the blog too would be happy that one of us is now on TV …

    By the way, I have now dropped pkans for goign to the Jaipur fest. It now looks like a Sarkari show to me….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    If you think last few editions of the literary festival at jaipur were no good then you have all the reasons for not going there this time.

    [ I believe chill in Delhi is no less. Good enough for your evening sessions. ]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Having afternoon beer on the lawns of Diggy Palace hotel in winter with birds (two legged and well crafted ones) flying all around and celeberties and TV journos hunting for free snacks is a kick by itself.

    it is also tempting to think that somewday I would finally get down to hammering the keyboard to get the novel out…

  • Anonymous

    We are all with Gen V K Singh in his fight against the Corrupt UPA govt . Why this controversy ? …Is it because of the Ineptidude of a useless and worthless Defence Minister and a titular PM ? or is there a deeper reason …the influence of a hidden hand which is not accountable but wields all the power ? … Meethinks it is the latter. Gen V K Singh’s uncrompomising stand on Adarsh scam and others , has ruffled too many feathers . . .and it has also do with the appointment of his successor.
    This government of scamsters and scumsters can truly be credited with demolishing all institutions like the office of CVC , CAG , attacks on Judiciary… and now the office of Army Chief.
    Last evening when the movie on Star Movies was interrupted by a longish break , I thought let me switch over to some News channel… and I saw the familiar face our friend Mr Vinod Sharma on NDTV India. Smiling …. or was it sniggering .? ..at Manish Sisodia of Team Anna . Sharma Sahib is very angry with Team Anna for the same reason as Digvijay Singh.. he finds them essentially an Anti Congress political group.. and not their professed cause…a sort of Trojan horse. We ask why should not Sharma Sahib look inwards and disclose his own true allegiance… “kyon nahin danke ki chot par kehte hain ki main T V channels par Congress party ki vakalat karta hoon ”
    No … probably I am wrong … Congress has a vested Right to fund and put up Fronts like Sahmat ..Teesta Setalvad…and her cohorts.. Sanjeev Bhatt .. and so many others

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay mate, your long post in the the last blog disappointed me. I gently reminded you of muslim women dying in childbirth in remote villages, I spoke of muslims living in huts while Yadavs drove around in cars.
    THAT IS NOT SOCIAL JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    All I got from fellow bloggers-
    -reservation for muslims is unconstitutional
    - Sardar Patel- I respect this man- said something in 1948
    -Muslims were not discriminated against and so on

    guys, guys, guys, you all serious ???????????????????? give your fellow brother muslim a chance , a chance to uplift himself and become a Zaheer Khan or Azim PREMJI and show his love for India
    Vijay and Aaloke, dudes I make you PM of India- now think with compassion and justice

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    did everyone miss the rise of a new caste in India- its called I am so desperately poor I want to die-
    this new caste needs help, big time help- it has a lot of poor, malnutished smelly people in it, smelly because they wash in a drain
    The Yadavs and the Paswans are the new brahmins and Nawabs

    and yes, in Bhiwadi, our cleaning lady is a widow who has a surname SHARMA- she has fallen on hard times- she could also do with reservation for her kids. for one generation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Vijay you so disappointed me dude by missing the changing soiciology of India

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan

    You are right – there are (and always were) only two classes – the poor and others.
    60 years of reservations has helped some to get out of poverty; however, they do not want to let go their reservations, thus the scenario of the day when as you said Paswans riding in Toyotas, while Mrs Sharma is cleaning the factory. The unfortunate thing is that Mrs Sharma’s children will never get an opportunity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rizwan

    You are right! Everone wants to be desperately poor and get the quotas. Real economic growth and hardwork… kaun chahata hai?

    I in my small way am aware of this changin sociology. You know the high compensation farmers get for land in Noida and Gurgaon? Well nobody can classify them as poor in any way…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    If you want to lead a small act, then please please organise a grand fare-well ceremony for Mr Sreedharan. Show your city cared for a real honest person

    I would love to hear a news on this site you organised a gala event [ yes with splendid Rock Shows, Classical music, flash Mob dance et al ] at RamLila ground for mr Sreedharan who made a real difference to your city.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have already congratulated Sreedharan twice when I had reason to meet him. And yes in my own small way…I have been his big fan and publiscised his achievements in the blogs I write on various sites.

    And of course in a small bitchy way– I have pulled down Brit and Mid East Engineers to learn from Delhi Metro– whenever I had reason to visit thier sites.

    engrich Reply:

    Engineers to learn from Delhi Metro

    metro in their countries were built years before.consultant and designer of dlhi metro was european.they have copied french metro.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    That is too miniscule an effort !
    Your city and you should be gracious enough to give Mr Sreedharan a grand farewell party.

    Celebrating a honest person is also as good as showing your disapproval for corruption.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rizwan

    Thanks for the reply mate. There was a fairly long discussion on reservations in the previous blog and I hope you went through it. There were other people too who had contributed including Gopi , a Christian and Pervez, a muslim.

    In everyone’s view, reservation along relgious lines is bad and divisive. It would be going back to the times of the partition where as my grandad would tell me– water was sold as Hindu paani and Muslim Paani.

    Even if there is reservation then it surely would have to be a minority quota, otherwise it would breed huge resentment and a 80’s type of religous confrontation when Rajiv Gandhi went back on the Shah bano verdict.. Where is the gaurantee that Muslims would qualify under a minorites quota in case Sikhs, Christians, Jains and Buddhists also apply for the same jobs ?

    I am saddened that that Muslims are at a disadvantage as compared to yadavs. In fact I would be the first one to vote for an option which bans reservations in case a parent owns a car, has high tax returs or has landed property of say more than 5 acres. I firmly believe that Muslims too should be given the same facility as Yadavs, wherever they are poor BUT not by classifying them as Muslims, but rather on their norm of poverty or the trade they work in. Say a simple factory hand’s child or a beldar’s or a daily wage owners child.

    The trick is I am again repeating– EQUIPPING A PERSON WITH EDUCATION AND ENTERPRISE TO TACKLE THE WORLD. Never estimate the power of education.

    You are from DPS RK Puram– and I, from Shah Rukh Khan’s school. At least in my time your school was rated higher in education standards. Though I can swear we could lick you out on the sports field. Why can’t all of us fight for a method that there are DPS standard schools in districts and smaller cities so that ALL, whether a Yadav or a Muslim get unhindered, easy and cheap access to high quality education? I am of the firm opinion that a simple high school guy from a good school has enough education to survive in the toughest of conditions. He knows the world, he can use the law to fight injustice, create his own conditions for employment.

    And even if he or she chooses to remain a farmer or a carpenter, it would be of a HIgh high inovating standard

    So in case there is any mission to create 1000 high standard schools in districts where Muslims are a majority so that they too are not handicapped in anyway— I am prepared to lead this. And i mean it.

    Rizwan, don’t get taken in by the guile of our politicians. They will come and go with their vote bank politics. The only thing which helps is high economic growth, wholesome education and infrastructure.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    now think with compassion and justice

    they cannot as hate is their duty.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Sardar Patel- I respect this man- said something in 1948

    just add to ur knowledge,he was semi educated person.creation of ghandhu,whom he insulted on many ocassions.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Rizwan,

    This is what Gopiji has posted. Your words.

    “” Paswans riding in Toyotas, while Mrs Sharma is cleaning the factory. The unfortunate thing is that Mrs Sharma’s children will never get an opportunity.”"

    This is problem with caste/religion based reservation. Lot of desvering poor people
    will miss out beacuse of this.Poor people deserve and should get the benefits
    of the reservation and it should not matter from which caste/religion they belong.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Cry my beloved country!

    Yesterday, three brothers killed their 16 year old younger sister because she was in love with a boy from her school.

    This happened in Noida

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Very sad Gopi. I think this calls for instant punishment. Our society is just so pro-male. if a boy romances he is a hero. If a girl does so– she is a family shame.

    Further on the society will have to accept, for better or worse, teenage sexuality. With so much on the net and TV, sex has jumped out before marriage. — Though probably not in this case. Now the older gen has to live with the idea that the world is not the same anymore.

    Some years back there was a rape case in Noida, where 6 village boys raped a girl who was in a parked car with her boyfriend. the boys were all yadavs.

    Amar Singh Dahala– the darling of the media– immedialtely went on an overdrive. That since the girl was seated in a parked car with her boyfriend, she was of “bad character.” He held protests that teh rapists were innocents who needed protection.

    This Amar SIngh Dhala is the same desicble charater on whom the Congress relies to defame graft fighters.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Very sad indeed. A young girl killed for this so called Honor.
    Solution lies in proper education.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    in ramrajya of madhya pardesh ,one brhmn was caught 350 croes in his house.today one sharma one trivedi are caught by lokpal with 15 crores.they were low grade officers.i dont know what will happen when houses of minsters and chief minister are raided.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I was watching test cricket between Pakistan and England for a short while.
    This Pakistani spinner, Saeed Ajmal is a magician. He has mesmerized the
    English batsmen and no one is able to read him properly. Harbajan should learn
    few tricks from him.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    u will be called isi agent.just wait.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Aaloke

    There are many a times when I find my self disagreeing with you, yet I can not find words and motivation to contradict you.

    This may be because you operate on a higher spiritual level that I – which is not very difficult. However, here it goes.

    Muslim poverty is self-inficted. I could not disagree with you more, even if I wanted it.

    I suggest that you give, economic, rather than spiritual consideration to the following.

    Holy city of Benares has thousands of looms upon which Muslim weavers weave world’s best saris.

    City of Moradabad has many furnaces which produce Brass nick nacks, etc.

    In both these examples, there are many more, take the market price of Sari/Brass Object and trace it back to the poor worker and calculate who took what amount of profit in that chain which stretches from the customer back to the worker.

    Once you have done that, then tell me if the poverty is self inflicted.

    If structural discrimination in our society is based upon caste and religion then so must be the affirmative action designed to counter it. Once our society is stratified purely on economic basis, then it will be appropriate for affirmative actions – designed for the upliftment of the poor – can be distributed on economic criteria.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Do you mean to say that if saris were woven by non muslims or brass nick nacks were produced by non muslims they would have got better price ?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ey would have got better price

    high caste dallals are enemy of every indian.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No I am not saying that at all.

    Hindu poverty in these industries is comprable to Muslim poverty. In both cases it is not self inflicted.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    The two cases you have mentioned has nothing to do with caste or religion.
    Even in these cases poverty is self inflicted. Intelligent and enterprising people
    will come out of this vicious circle and will sell their products at better price.
    Opportunities are always there only people have to recognize and grab those.
    We cannot keep on blaming others for our misfortune.

    Ravi Reply:

    I do not agree, but I am busy to provide a detailed reply.

    engrich Reply:

    Muslim poverty is self-inficted. I could not disagree with you more, even if I wanted

    aaloke is a hate spewing brhmns mostly write bullshit.every city of up is known with muslim handicraft.but they are paid least possible by high caste hindu dallals
    if they ask for better enoluments terrorists of rss are ready to perpetuate communal riots(their main seciality).that way muslims are pushed to poverty.
    poverty is enforced on the most enlightened and hard orking race of india

    they are curse for indiaspoiling our rivers destroying our jungles,and animal habitats and hoarding trillions in their temples.these are main issues.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Ravi,

    I would like to get corrected if my line of thought is not proper. There won’t be any ego issues. I would only be a gainer . So please do discuss ( not argue).

    Coming to your above post, I had mentioned “Backwardness” and not “Poverty” in my earlier post. Now coming to your example of Benaras and Moradabad, Does it happen only to Muslims. I know vegetables that are bought for X amount in cities and how much does a small farmer get out of it. You will be surprised that ratio is even worse. Most of these farmers are not Muslims ( Muslims are not much in farming).

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Prahlad,

    (This is response to Prahlad’s earlier post.)

    Have you ever been to Gujrat. When you drive on Ahmedabad – Surat highway, almost all restaurants along the road are owned by Muslims. The restaurants are big, newly constructed , almost all offer Vegetarian fare as their clients are mostly Gujrati Hindus. Have you met Bohra Muslims in Gujrat, Maharastra, Rajasthan and parts of M.P, they are one of the best merchants and business men in states already brimming with business talent. I recently came to know about another muslim community in Gujrat who have excelled in a big way in transport business. They have gone in this business only in last 15-20 years. Before that they were not doing well as a community. There was a detailed article on this community and its progress in India Today.

    Now so much is happening for Muslims in a state which so many claim is very communal, if all above examples (two of which I know personally) are possible, why is it not possible in other states. Above examples are possible because Muslims do not have any handicap for growth except their philosophy. In above examples, Muslims have modified their philosophy. Like in restaurants, they are offering Vegetarian fare in tune with Client requirements. You will not find this in UP. Bohras are very comfortable in dealing with non-muslims. Has Rizwan faced any problem because he is from Muslim community. As Gopi tells us repeatedly, In Kerela, Muslims are much better off than Hindus. Infact, Hindus come last in social ranking. First being Christians. So should we have reservation for Hindus in Kerela ? In Whole of South India, Muslims are generally equal or better placed than any other community. How has that happened. Majority of top heros in Bollywood are Muslim born. Much-much higher than muslim population percentage. If we go as per Sachar Panel logic, should we create reservation for Non-Muslims in “Hero “ roles.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke,

    That has always been the problem. We always blame others for our failures.
    We will never introspect that may be we did not try hard enough or our approach/style
    of doing business was wrong. Or may be just sheer bad luck in some cases due to some unforeseen circumtences.

    There is saying :

    If you want something badly, you will always get it.
    If you do not get it, that means you never wanted that badly.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Aaloke

    I dont think you should take this Duffer Rahul and Digvinash seriously. They are here to create vote banks by divideing people. Digvinash SIngh’s misrule of 10 years was a low in terms of governance and economic growth in India’s history.

    In case Rahul the duffer gets the reins, uncle Digvinash will spread communal poson all voer India.

    But yes, Muslims in India do badly in social indices and income levels in the North. This is in not so much because of any government policy of discrimination, but because community leaders and politicans who speak on their behalf want to keep them separate.

    In my engineering college unfortunately there was not a single Muslim girl. Now since the enterance exam was an all India one there is no way this could be a discrimination. It is just possible that ehy would be very few Muslims girls taking this entry exam. SO the key really remains giving educational opportunities from childhood.

    We also see that people like Engrich and his supporters start shouting prostitution the moment Pervez had mentioned that Muslim girls should come out of the purdah. I think the out dated laws which the Congress clings to in terms of Personal law needs to be changed. Why is there so much noise about a separate personal law? In case it was so sacred, then the votaries of the separate personal law would be demanding chopping of hands for muslim pickpockets. No, they won’t.

    But they will unite to shout blasphemy in case equal marital rights as men is given to Muslim women. This is total double speak.

    Some time back, in Punjab there was a movement to deny women property and landed rights–”as they get married and farming families end up fueding”.
    That will be the worst law to be passed in case the government ends up doing so.

    Frankly the MUslims need to do soul searching. Some honest leaders should come forward and talk bluntly. They should ask the community to fill schools and colleges and join other communties in the race for personal and national growth.

    Yes on the reverse side a cariacture of the Muslim who is a terrorist is also presented by certain politicians. We need to demolish that too.

    there is picture of a Muslim who is intolerant which is projected by certain quarters. That needs to be demolished too. Especially by Muslims themselves by grinding to dust all the dumb people who try to foist a divisive agenda on them.

    But really in the end we are all human beings. Relgion is a personal thing. The state should not try to divide people on religious basis, nor try to be pro a certain religion– whther it is HInduism or Islam or Christianity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    1) Name a politician who is not in the arena for creating vote banks ?

    2) You want a Muslim leader to speak up for muslims. Why a Hindu leader can not represent and speak up for Indian Muslims ?
    I thought you wanted Indian muslims to be broad based !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad O Prhalad !

    You wont be able to confuse or rattle me ! I always maintian that Hindu politicians need to think about Sikhs, Christians and Hdus amd Muslims and athiests. Ditto for sokh or Musim politicians.

    And yes… all politciasn need votebanks. But those who divide society into tiny minoirites and then scare them and then garb the mask of protectors are the anti nationals.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    For you to not get confused, I asked pointed and bulleted question.

    You may answer likewise if you feel inclined.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    There is no problem in creating vote banks. But, in the process
    if that leads to disharmony/animosity among caste/religion
    than it is a serious problem and should be stopped.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    You contradicted yourself.

    Politicians are for votes. Some find virtues in calling all Hindu votes, some in muslims and some in Dalits, some in Lingayats. If you at all meant that by vote bank politics.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    Vote bank’s cannot be created on communal harmony? Only hatred will get you votes ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji, Sirji,

    why do you persist in talking like a baby?

    Have you not seen the result of Hindu leaders of the congress party taking proprietory interest in the Muslim community?

    What have they given the victims of their representing and “speaking up” for Muslims?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Inspire BJP leaders to lead Indian Muslims. Hope it will make some difference.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji, Sirji,

    why do you persist in talking like a baby?

    Have you not seen the result of Hindu leaders of the congress party taking proprietory interest in the Muslim community?

    What have they given the victims of their representing and “speaking up” for Muslims?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji, Sirji,

    why do you persist in talking like a baby?

    Have you not seen the result of Hindu leaders of the congress party taking proprietory interest in the Muslim community?

    What have they given the victims of their representing and “speaking up” for Muslims?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji, Sirji,

    why do you persist in talking like a baby?

    Have you not seen the result of Hindu leaders of the congress party taking proprietory interest in the Muslim community?

    What have they given the victims of their representing and “speaking up” for Muslims?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aoloke Sir,

    We are World’ back office because the World think we are good in English.

    Is India a true English speaking country ?

    Just1-2% in India speak in English.

    Few streets in Gujrat does not represent India.

    Gujratis have entrepreneurship in their DNA, irrespective of their religion.

    I am sure well-off Muslims feel ashamed taking adavantage of Govt’s welfare schemes, like many hindus have given up their ration cards long long time back.

    [ It's another matter that somebody in Gujrat took kerosene from ration shop in the name of Mrs Sonia Gandhi. ]

    Things will change in Muslim landscape too.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Prahlad,

    Again, I have’nt been able to connect exactly to what you are saying.

    I have given reference of whole of south India, Gujrat, Muslim Bohra community spread over a large area in western and Central India. are’nt these examples enough. I am only personally aware about these areas, I am very sure that even in other areas it would not be drastically different. One more area that I know of is J&K. Muslims here are the richest . For poorest, you will have to look in Hindu community.Muslims are also in majority. However there is no demand for special benefits by Hindus.

    The basic idea is to find out whether Muslims face any external handicap because they are muslims. The answer is NO.The handicap is internal for which solution is education.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke Sir,

    Education is definitely is the solution and the first step towards the empowerment.

    But entrepreneurship is the key.

    We have seen entrepreneurship changing the social milieu in Gujrat and Punjab.

    Please do not be harsh if you find my comments on Kashmir to be different. There was a time Kahmiri Pundits were the most educated class and controlled everything in the state.

    What they lacked was entrepreneurship. Eventually they lost out as Kashmiri Muslims were proved to be better entrepreneurs and changed their own economic status.

    [ There are other controversial elements to the story. But I am not touching upon them. I am just talking about entrepreneurship. ]

    To be really educated you need many years of commitment. To be an entrepreneur, you need just a change in thinking. And it could be instant with a little help.

    Just take a look at our Sardar friends and you will know what I mean.

    India is a terrific entrepreneural country. Entrepreneurship is our passport to the glory.

    But for entrepreneurs to thrive, we need an environment that is free, liberated, broad based and with a sense of inclusiveness.

    Anonymous Reply:

    One small south india doesn’t make a big splash.

    But, for a few years, one single fellow, one Qutubuddin Ansari, did make a big difference to our entire secular class.

    Why? Because he was shown, all over the world, as the face of Gujarat riots. He was taken, with much fanfare, to Kolkatta by the Left Front government with the promise of “resettlement”.

    But, shortly later, he came back to Gujrat in a hurry.

    For all their trumpeting and chest-thumping, the commies couldn’t offer him a decent livelihood.

    I am quoting this particular joke in the light of your quoting facts about how other ststes are lacking in bettering the lot of Muslims in their states. Most of the political class excels in lip service.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Very good reply.

    Anonymous Reply:

    One small south india doesn’t make a big splash.

    But, for a few years, one single fellow, one Qutubuddin Ansari, did make a big difference to our entire secular class.

    Why? Because he was shown, all over the world, as the face of Gujarat riots. He was taken, with much fanfare, to Kolkatta by the Left Front government with the promise of “resettlement”.

    But, shortly later, he came back to Gujrat in a hurry.

    For all their trumpeting and chest-thumping, the commies couldn’t offer him a decent livelihood.

    I am quoting this particular joke in the light of your quoting facts about how other ststes are lacking in bettering the lot of Muslims in their states. Most of the political class excels in lip service.

    Anonymous Reply:

    somebody took out arrest warrants for then President, Abdul Kalam.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    BOOM BOOM RIZWAN
    _____________________________
    Rizwan puttar I am going to tie you in chains, shakle yr feet and imprison u. So u never leave blog. Bhaut khush keeta, I am proud there are young Indians like you who think without prism of history, without burden.
    puttar you set fire to blog. Aloke , can u read, we are NOT, REPEAT NOT talking abt rich Malyaali muslims or restaurant owners in Gujrat. We are talking about dirty poor muslims who could do with help. And Mrs Sharma, widow who sweeps floor in Rizwans factory.

    I WANT TO SHOUT TO VIJAY, SHENOY, AALOK, yes reservation is esential for all poor, only poor, remove caste label. Every word of Rizwans 3 posts above reads like liquid cold , evryone pl you read it. “”Paswans and Yadavs are new brahmins and Nawaabs “”
    brilliant. Thanks to gopi, manohar and mohan for clarity
    PROF SHAH ALAM, WHERE R U , SIRJI, PL write here on imp issue

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Balwinderji,

    I think every one here is OK if government help is given on poverty basis. Even if on that basis muslims get maximum benefit. I don’t think any one has any issue with this situation. Point that I am trying to make is very specific, point which I have repeated very clearly ” Should benefits be given to Muslims on the basis of Religion”. I hope we discuss on this specific topic.

    I however feel reservation/benefit can be given to Muslim Girls/Women on the basis of Religion. They are badly discriminated on the bases of their gender within Muslim community. I think even Sachar panel did’nt have inclination and time to get proper statistics about Muslim Women.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Absolutely right.

    NO reservations for Muslims just for being a Muslim – give them the benefit in any other name – no one has a problem.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have a few basic question for you and Aaloke below……
    1> Do you agree there has been discrimination purely on communal basis (Caste / Religion et al) ?
    2> In the absence of reservations / stimulus on the basis of these communal markers – what is it that is going to guarantee that certain communities won’t be left out ? (Actually it reverse – what would guarantee there is no monopolisation of development by few communitiies as we have seen so far ?)

    To be sure I find reservations (in the current avatar) hopelessly inadequate tool and yet even then me thinks stimulus that doesn’t have a community focus – based on purely class markers – has its own attendant problems.

    Ideally – “Market Forces” should’ve ensured a fair distribution of fruits of development for all communities, and yet the outreach of “Market Forces” failed on this count. To put it rhetorically – People need Markets, do the Markets need People ? Which People ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    While Aaloke finds time to respond, here’s what I feel…

    a) There has been no discrimination on the basis of one’s religion (pls. don’t try to mix caste and religion)

    b) If there has been no discrimination, the question of any reservation on those lines shouldn’t arise. Period

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    How does pointing out discrimination on the basis of Caste and Religion mix the two ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Bahot changa likya si, Ishwar puttar!

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have a few basic question for you and Aaloke below……
    1> Do you agree there has been discrimination purely on communal basis (Caste / Religion et al) ?
    2> In the absence of reservations / stimulus on the basis of these communal markers – what is it that is going to guarantee that certain communities won’t be left out ? (Actually it reverse – what would guarantee there is no monopolisation of development by few communitiies as we have seen so far ?)

    To be sure I find reservations (in the current avatar) hopelessly inadequate tool and yet even then me thinks stimulus that doesn’t have a community focus – based on purely class markers – has its own attendant problems.

    Ideally – “Market Forces” should’ve ensured a fair distribution of fruits of development for all communities, and yet the outreach of “Market Forces” failed on this count. To put it rhetorically – People need Markets, do the Markets need People ? Which People ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinderji,

    you don’t have to shout about reservations for Muslims. I for one will hear even when you whisper. The point most of us have made and often enough, is that the reservations should be on the basis of poverty and deprivation rather than on religion.

    ANd for a community of more than 200 million, steeped in poverty and utter deprivation, what will 4.5% reservations- that too in government posts-do?

    It will be like mixing heeng in the Arabian sea. No good.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    “” It will be like mixing heeng in the Arabian sea.”"

    Very good one. I am definitely going to use this whenever I
    get a chance.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    ….for a community of more than 200 million, steeped in poverty and utter deprivation, …

    Thanks for bringing out the enormity of the problem.

    You found a major cluster !

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi, Thanks for the upper cut delivered on my behalf to the garment factory owner from Konkan.As the discussion is veeing again towards the merits or demerits of reservation , RATHER THAN THE SHENANIGAN OF PAKISTANI JUDICIARY, LETS
    REPOST IT
    RESERVATION a RATIONALIST AND A HUMANIST’S PERSPECTIVE
    reservation is given to a certain section of society ,SO THAT THEY CAN SEE SOME ROLE MODEL amongst them , they can aspire , and the multiplier effect to do the rest.The fundamental impediment to the progress of BLACKS in USA was their lack of self esteem and self beleif , WHICH HAVE BEEN BURIED ALIVE BY THE WHITE SLAVE MASTERS.Same situation in India , some section of society cannnot even think ,let alone try for climbing the socialladder .FOR THEY HAVE NO ROLE MODEL AMONST THEM IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD.
    But the best away to proceed is to TARGET these POCKETS , and START FROM SCHOOL EDUCATION , with GOOD NUTRITION AND EXTRA GOOD SCHOOL,preparing them for the college , WHERE THEY SHOULD GET INTO RESERVATION QUOTA , because their parents cannot afford TEN PRIVATE PRIVATE TUTORS , ONE FOR EACH SUBJECT.
    But POVERTY should be only criteria and GEOGRAPHICAL AREA. not religion
    but the benefeciaries will be the same , SC/ST/MUSLIMS.
    Just catapulting them to middle class does reduce the chances of humiliation by a higher caste , albeit marginally.

    Also some “enlightened” bloggers have suggested the old chestnut , muslim plight is self inflicted. Also ignorance galore , when they DEMAND PENANCE FROM HAPLESS MUSLIMS( BUT NOT FROM BHIWANDI FACTORY OWNER’S SON)
    As to the former comment If I recall correctly form the film TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD, there is a scene where a white racist screams “What can I do if GOD has made you ugly”. AHMED PATEL , or HOsain Ali MONDAL , as the surname suggests HAS NO GENETIC OR WHATEVER CONNECTION WITH THE RULING INVADERS.
    99% , I REPEAT 99% of INDIAN MUSLIMS ARE LOW CASTE CONVERTS , who left the fold due to BRAMHINICAL OPPRESSION , some were so beyond the pale (UNTOUCHABLE, as the very word suggests) , NOBODY CARED , so my theory is never had any specific religion. The Mcdonald’s of religion that is ISLAM stepped CONQUERED THE MARKET,
    More later , got called to OT

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    U have rightly equated Islam with McDonald’s.

    For better things in life – you need to look beyond it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,

    TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD – This book was published in 1960 and after
    two years movie was made on this book. The story in the book is based
    on the events which occur in 1930’s. A beautiful book and a very well
    made movie.

    Do you really believe that blacks in America are still treated like they
    were is thirties or sixties. ?
    And in India is the castism same as it was 50-60 years ago ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @MohanR , the answer to your question is EMPHATIC NO, that doesn’t mean we dont have a mountain to climb

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,

    Thanks for the honest reply. This is what most of people
    on this blog have been saying. Yes, there are still problems
    where castes are concerned, but not as rampant as it was
    long time ago. Much more should be done and in way that
    it should bring them together instead of dividing them.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doubulate Shan,

    you are 20 fathoms deep in a sea of ignorance and arrogance. How can you climb a mountain?

    First try to surface. Don’t depend on jihadi crutches to bolster your feeble case founded on illogical half truths like comparing Indian Muslims to American Blacks and Muslim rule of India with Black slavery.

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi, Thanks for the upper cut delivered on my behalf to the garment factory owner from Konkan.As the discussion is veeing again towards the merits or demerits of reservation , RATHER THAN THE SHENANIGAN OF PAKISTANI JUDICIARY, LETS
    REPOST IT
    RESERVATION a RATIONALIST AND A HUMANIST’S PERSPECTIVE
    reservation is given to a certain section of society ,SO THAT THEY CAN SEE SOME ROLE MODEL amongst them , they can aspire , and the multiplier effect to do the rest.The fundamental impediment to the progress of BLACKS in USA was their lack of self esteem and self beleif , WHICH HAVE BEEN BURIED ALIVE BY THE WHITE SLAVE MASTERS.Same situation in India , some section of society cannnot even think ,let alone try for climbing the socialladder .FOR THEY HAVE NO ROLE MODEL AMONST THEM IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD.
    But the best away to proceed is to TARGET these POCKETS , and START FROM SCHOOL EDUCATION , with GOOD NUTRITION AND EXTRA GOOD SCHOOL,preparing them for the college , WHERE THEY SHOULD GET INTO RESERVATION QUOTA , because their parents cannot afford TEN PRIVATE PRIVATE TUTORS , ONE FOR EACH SUBJECT.
    But POVERTY should be only criteria and GEOGRAPHICAL AREA. not religion
    but the benefeciaries will be the same , SC/ST/MUSLIMS.
    Just catapulting them to middle class does reduce the chances of humiliation by a higher caste , albeit marginally.

    Also some “enlightened” bloggers have suggested the old chestnut , muslim plight is self inflicted. Also ignorance galore , when they DEMAND PENANCE FROM HAPLESS MUSLIMS( BUT NOT FROM BHIWANDI FACTORY OWNER’S SON)
    As to the former comment If I recall correctly form the film TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD, there is a scene where a white racist screams “What can I do if GOD has made you ugly”. AHMED PATEL , or HOsain Ali MONDAL , as the surname suggests HAS NO GENETIC OR WHATEVER CONNECTION WITH THE RULING INVADERS.
    99% , I REPEAT 99% of INDIAN MUSLIMS ARE LOW CASTE CONVERTS , who left the fold due to BRAMHINICAL OPPRESSION , some were so beyond the pale (UNTOUCHABLE, as the very word suggests) , NOBODY CARED , so my theory is never had any specific religion. The Mcdonald’s of religion that is ISLAM stepped CONQUERED THE MARKET,
    More later , got called to OT

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Delhi Univ is fogged out today… but this blog is burning bright !

    So the bloggers find Pakistan boring and have turned back to Muslim reservations. I too have some views on this. But let me add… at variance with that of Rizwan. I did not face any discrimination on my road to management at delhi Univ.However i feel as guilty when I see poor Muslims whose skills are limited and can only qualify for tradesman or unskilled jobs.

    Rizwan bhai and other bloggers, I hope you don’t mind in case I share a bit of my story here.

    My dad was well read– a doc. He took care i got a good school in Luknow and then Delhi a few years in the Mid East and then back in delhi for 10, 11th and 12th.. getting into Delhi Univ… was totally dependent on marks. The first job I did for an year in advertising on my inteview and copy skills. And coming back to Delhi univ in management dependent on my enterance exam test.

    Why I am saying all this is because my road could have been totally different. I could have gone to an Urdu medium school where the emphasis could have been religious studies. I doubt I would have had this cakewalk.

    I have not faced any discrimination till now. Only a bit of curiosity value… on why very few Muslims are there in my school and college.

    My definate view: Society accepts a guy who walks along a certian road. It wont change to make you skilled. Market forces are ruthless. If you want to work in advertising or BPO’s, well you need to be what they want… they are not going to change their companies and setups to accomodate you.

    If Muslims need to be in the corporate world… well you need English skills not Arabic. You need to interact will all religions and not be stuck up. Dont think that the corporate world will accept you in salwar and pathani suit. You need to be dressed in neckties and three pieces.

    But most of all dont wallow in self pity that the world is conspiring against us. Instead embrace this world whole heartedly

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez-

    It looks like people have taken bits and pieces of Rizwan’s comment. What he said was rich Paswans continue to get “preferred” treatments (ie reservation) whereas poor Muslims (and poor Hindus–he talked about a Mrs Sharma who is a sweeper at his factory) get left out.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi sir,

    I dont think I would be critical of Rizwan. I understand his feelings as I go through them myself. I am just stating a fact that Muslims need to occupy the educational space which would get them into mainstream corporate jobs.

    Rizwan bhai

    In case you read this, please understand I have only written with the best of intentions. I gave the engineering and medical exams soon after school as my abbu wanted a doc or an engineer in the house. Thank god I failed as I am not a techno sort of person. But one sure fact. none of them exams was in Urdu and that by itself would be a hige disadvantage for most Muslim kids who end up going to Muslim schools. On then end the community has to embrace reality and not the past.

    And in my personal belief as you say you run a factory, what would be more wonderful than sponsoring a few worker kids to manstream good schools where they interact with all religions?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    One swallow does not summer make.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    “” My definate view: Society accepts a guy who walks along a certian road. It wont change to make you skilled. Market forces are ruthless.”"

    These few words tell the whole story. Once people accept this, automatically
    everything will start falling in place.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Pervz

    I guess all of us have to accept the world for what it is. In te first job I did, my boss was a sardar. I had accidently started smoking then– which have quit now. But it was said that in case he saw me smoking… he would keep me in his bad books !

    But more seriously, all of us need skills to survive in this world. Some years back, making building presntations was all about drawings. Toda it is all about 3D walk throughs on laptops. If I dont do it… I would be twiddling my thumb.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Delhi Univ is fogged out today… but this blog is burning bright !

    So the bloggers find Pakistan boring and have turned back to Muslim reservations. I too have some views on this. But let me add… at variance with that of Rizwan. I did not face any discrimination on my road to management at delhi Univ.However i feel as guilty when I see poor Muslims whose skills are limited and can only qualify for tradesman or unskilled jobs.

    Rizwan bhai and other bloggers, I hope you don’t mind in case I share a bit of my story here.

    My dad was well read– a doc. He took care i got a good school in Luknow and then Delhi a few years in the Mid East and then back in delhi for 10, 11th and 12th.. getting into Delhi Univ… was totally dependent on marks. The first job I did for an year in advertising on my inteview and copy skills. And coming back to Delhi univ in management dependent on my enterance exam test.

    Why I am saying all this is because my road could have been totally different. I could have gone to an Urdu medium school where the emphasis could have been religious studies. I doubt I would have had this cakewalk.

    I have not faced any discrimination till now. Only a bit of curiosity value… on why very few Muslims are there in my school and college.

    My definate view: Society accepts a guy who walks along a certian road. It wont change to make you skilled. Market forces are ruthless. If you want to work in advertising or BPO’s, well you need to be what they want… they are not going to change their companies and setups to accomodate you.

    If Muslims need to be in the corporate world… well you need English skills not Arabic. You need to interact will all religions and not be stuck up. Dont think that the corporate world will accept you in salwar and pathani suit. You need to be dressed in neckties and three pieces.

    But most of all dont wallow in self pity that the world is conspiring against us. Instead embrace this world whole heartedly

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    you must show us, sometime, the silver spoon. Put up the photo in your profile.

    I am glad you have left the sour grapes and the madrasas, Arabic etc to the engriches and other roaches.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    followesr of ramlalla paralysed moradabad for one year.all our trade was captured by pakistan and korea.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    followers of ramlalla paralysed moradabad for one complete year.pakistan and korea captured our trade..

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    why very few Muslims are there in my school and college.

    because they are less in numbers alao cannot afford .their father are not doctors or worked in muslim country.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    arabic is mother of all language.sould be read for spritual fulfllment.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    As I mentioned before, it is time we approach problems and issues as local/regional rather than as “all india’.

    For example, Muslim backwardness (or for that general economic backwardness) should be first tackled in UP, Bihar, West Bengal where 50% of Muslims live. However, once one dives deep,, one will find that the Muslim backwardness there is related to the general backwardness of the states. Bihar has a per capita GDP of 20000, UP 25,000 RS, West Bengal 41,000 – compared to the average southern state per capita of 88,000 Rs. So, all are doing bad in those states; just not Muslims.

    Within those states, districts like Kishanganj, Purnia, Moradanbad,MmuzaffirNagar, Bareilly, Sahranpur, Murshidabad, Parganas are more poor and more Muslims.

    So what is needed is not a pan-India solution ; but a focused data-based approach to specific areas, with the resonsibility born by the states.

    Mayawati should be responsible for the paltry GDP of her state. May be we should amend the constitution that the President can dismiss the state ministry for not meeting certain thresholds. This will most probably take care of corruption too

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    I wish our politician read this and act accordingly.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    when reading posts like this, most politicians would misplace their reading glasses!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    when reading posts like this, most politicians would misplace their reading glasses!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pretty apt gopi

    Our dunce price and his donkey assistant want to chop society like an Italian pizza.. Detail wont suit them.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    As I mentioned before, it is time we approach problems and issues as local/regional rather than as “all india’.

    For example, Muslim backwardness (or for that general economic backwardness) should be first tackled in UP, Bihar, West Bengal where 50% of Muslims live. However, once one dives deep,, one will find that the Muslim backwardness there is related to the general backwardness of the states. Bihar has a per capita GDP of 20000, UP 25,000 RS, West Bengal 41,000 – compared to the average southern state per capita of 88,000 Rs. So, all are doing bad in those states; just not Muslims.

    Within those states, districts like Kishanganj, Purnia, Moradanbad,MmuzaffirNagar, Bareilly, Sahranpur, Murshidabad, Parganas are more poor and more Muslims.

    So what is needed is not a pan-India solution ; but a focused data-based approach to specific areas, with the resonsibility born by the states.

    Mayawati should be responsible for the paltry GDP of her state. May be we should amend the constitution that the President can dismiss the state ministry for not meeting certain thresholds. This will most probably take care of corruption too

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    West Bengal must be clubbed with the BIMARU states and make it BIMWARU STATES.

    I also had suggested earlier a Marshall plan for these states, with special emphasis on the development of the Muslim poor in all these states.

    Before that we must also exclude, with common consent, the creamy layer from the SC, ST and OBC groups, so that the reservation cake can be made bigger for the really deserving among the Muslim poor.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Incerdibly the TOTAL STATE GDP WISE, West bengal is above Karnataka , and sits sixth on the table below gujrat , but population being 8 crore in WB and 5 Crore in Karnataka , thus per capita 1300 in Karnataka and 900 in WB. Though it is true WB should be clubbed with BIMARU , not just in economic matters , but general REGRESSIVE politics and social behaviour

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi Sir,

    The state level politics are very different from the national politics. The motivations are very different at the state level.

    It’s very local and very myopic.

    For example the thinking process keep changing as we go down from MP’s to MLA’s in the city like Delhi itself. Things do look different if you consider the politicians who represent at the MCD level. The vision keeps getting narrowed.

    At state level, people hold onto the absolutes. They only think for themselves. It gets worse as some communities dominate the state level politics. They do not let others assimilate in the main stream. It gets just worse as you go down to the district level.

    The ” All India” approach gives a holistic view and makes more sense. We need a good Central Government who has this holistic and global approach for problem solving. The Govt. has to be responsive, inclusive and committed to ” All india” approach.

    Not only the strong local pockets but also weak local pockets need to integrate and assimilate with a cohesive national average.

    The problem occurs when partisan politics take over.

    Mr Narendra Modi headed the panel on GST and strongly recommended a common implementation. But BJP’s politics prevented him practice what he preached. Similar problem we saw in the case of FDI in retail.

    We have problem at the implementation level.

    The implementation fails because of the inept officials. At the local level, the officials think themselves to be “faceless” and abuse their power exactly in the manner people abuse on the internet because they think themselves to be faceless and feel they have nothing loose or even they abuse for the sake sadistic pleasure. The officials at the local level behave and act exactly in the manner you see abusers on the internet. They act for instant gratification.

    The Bottom-Up approach is ideal. But not practical.

    The Top-Down approach has to be continuous and coherent till we generate a national consensus about the national pride.

    And again I repeat for that we need a good responsive Central Govt. to begin with. This is achievable.

    It’s difficult to achieve that at state level. You just saw BJP taking in Mr Kushwaha, a known corrupt leader, because of the local state level compulsions.

    Gopi Sir ! Let us get our leaders right. The followers would change.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    You have said that “” The implementation fails because of the inept officials.”" .

    Who protects these inept officials ? Politicians are not only suppose
    to make laws/policies but they should make sure that these
    are implemented properly.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    Politicians reflect the society. We can not stop corrupt practices at our family level and yet expect politicians to be different !

    How often do we question ourselves before acting on simple things?

    We always think it to be too small to make any difference at a global level. We are corrupt and inappropriate in most of things we do, yet we expect others to be ideal.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    ” politicians reflect the society ” . Typical reply. Just say this and forget about the issue.
    Human nature is same, whether you are an American, European, Africn or Indian.
    1000 years ago also it was same and will remain same always. We are greedy, selfish and will
    always try to break the laws for our benefit and will try to get away by bribing.
    That is why we have governments, police, courts etc. People are elected, selected
    and appointed to manage these problems. I will say this again that politicians are
    suppose to make good laws and have ensure that laws are implemented properly

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    I am not forgetting anything. Just reminding that we ourselves are not willing to change then how do we expect others to change !

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    I am sorry to say that you did not understand what I was trying to tell, or perhaps I did not explain in a proper way.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    A teacher is supposed to teach, but indulges in coaching. A doctor indulges in private practice. A cop thrives on bribes. Babus do not push files without a bribe.

    Look around . Find if any branch of the society working the way it was supposed to work !

    Why blame politicians !

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    Same answer, laws are not implemented properly. Why people always claim that
    systems are better in western countries ? There you can get your things done
    without bribing anyone. Now, whose job is to ensure that laws are implemented ?

    ,

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    Tell me ain’t people at individual level more disciplined and ethical in those countries?

    If they are, then it’s people themselves more than the law or implementor of the law make the difference. That integrity factor is lacking here around us.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    ” politicians reflect the society ” . Typical reply. Just say this and forget about the issue.
    Human nature is same, whether you are an American, European, Africn or Indian.
    1000 years ago also it was same and will remain same always. We all are greedy, selfish and will
    always try to break the laws for our benefit and will try to get away by bribing.
    That is why we have governments, police, courts etc. People are elected, selected
    and appointed to manage these problems. I will say this again that politicians are
    suppose to make good laws and have to ensure that laws are implemented properly.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Prahlad

    That is why I say let us dump dynastic succession forever. Then we will be in a postion to judgge our leaders for what they are and how they perform and NOT on which family they belong too :)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    Find a good set of politicians who would that.

    Mr Advani feels inadequate in his own merit to topple UPA Govt. He is so keenly looking for another V P Singh to do the job.

    When you have politicians with low self-esteem things will go on like this.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Prahlad

    Which democracy in the world has such dynasty worshippers?

    north Korea is the last of the dynasty countries.

    Even Gadaffi, Mubarak and the Shah of Iran counld not
    get their dynasties in. Look at Zardari. he will hesitaate to get Bilawal.

    The Congress should get someone like Gehlot or Kamal nath or Kalmadi to take over. They represent the true face of Congress….

    Yuvraj is the mukhota :)

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    It’s amazing. Like Mr Advani, you too are looking at the Congress party to change their political approach instead of looking at your own merit !!

    Please just find few good leaders who will defeat Mrs Sonia gandhi and Mr rahul gandhi politically.

    Is it too much to ask for ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    the shoe is on the other foot. It is you and your other congressi trolls, who have been drumming up the idea that only the congress party has the leaders and policies capable of pulling India out of its self created and self-immersed quagmire.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Thank you for lending a helping hand to Vijay Sir.

  • Anonymous

    , LIES DAMNED LIES AND STATISTICS.
    The folly of putting too much emphasis on per capita GDP/income. MAHARASHTRA is NUMERO UNO ,in STATE GDP , THE PER CAPITA quite high , around 1800 dollars, well BONE POOR MUSLIMS live in a place called Malegaon where the blast occured.Andaman and Nicobar per capita GDP is higher than Maharashtra, not exactly an employment magnet is it.Maharashtra Finance industry doesn’t come to much use for BIDHRAVA.
    If Kerala was “God’s own country” , THEN WHY 40% of MALAYALIS WORK OUTSIDE THE STATE , AND CONTRIBUTE 40% of the GDP of the state.
    UP’s GDP is probably three to four times that of kerala , but the population is six times that of Kerala, thus the low per capita GDP. Punjab has benifitted from MASS EMIGRATION/REPATRIATION OF FUNDS from WEST, just like KERALA , MOST OF ITS WEALTH IS GULF REPATRIATED MONEY.
    The North East has been totally neglected , there is no reason why UP /BIHAR cannot become No1, their GREATEST ASSET, there is no unionised labour, unlike the hell hole of kerala and west bengal.
    Despite all the loud proclamation , gujrat is 5th on the league table of state GDP.
    The ABC of economics , LAND AND PEOPLE RATIO, land denoting wealth , be it agro , mineral or OIL.
    INDIA NEEDS A REVOLUTION IS AGRICULTURE, that will push GDP many fold , PROVIDE FOOD TO THE 50% HUNGRY.
    There was a programme last sunday on BBC1 , CountryFile. England is mindbogglingly green with grass cover, yet it showed dairy and cattle farmer growing SPECIAL GRASS on PLASTIC TRAYS 4ft by 3ft , ROWS AND ROWS of them stacked one on top of another in shelves , drip computer controlled water and nutrients to these grasses . These are then used as cattle feed.
    IDEALLY SUITED FOR INDIAN CONDITIONS , with so little grass cover

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    In England, they also feed their cattle crushed human bones and powdered animal flesh. They have made carnivores out of voiceless herbivores!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    As I mentioned before, it is time we approach problems and issues as local/regional rather than as “all india’.

    For example, Muslim backwardness (or for that general economic backwardness) should be first tackled in UP, Bihar, West Bengal where 50% of Muslims live. However, once one dives deep,, one will find that the Muslim backwardness there is related to the general backwardness of the states. Bihar has a per capita GDP of 20000, UP 25,000 RS, West Bengal 41,000 – compared to the average southern state per capita of 88,000 Rs. So, all are doing bad in those states; just not Muslims.

    Within those states, districts like Kishanganj, Purnia, Moradanbad,MmuzaffirNagar, Bareilly, Sahranpur, Murshidabad, Parganas are more poor and more Muslims.

    So what is needed is not a pan-India solution ; but a focused data-based approach to specific areas, with the resonsibility born by the states.

    Mayawati should be responsible for the paltry GDP of her state. May be we should amend the constitution that the President can dismiss the state ministry for not meeting certain thresholds. This will most probably take care of corruption too

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    , LIES DAMNED LIES AND STATISTICS.
    The folly of putting too much emphasis on per capita GDP/income. MAHARASHTRA is NUMERO UNO ,in STATE GDP , THE PER CAPITA quite high , around 1800 dollars, well BONE POOR MUSLIMS live in a place called Malegaon where the blast occured.Andaman and Nicobar per capita GDP is higher than Maharashtra, not exactly an employment magnet is it.Maharashtra Finance industry doesn’t come to much use for BIDHRAVA.
    If Kerala was “God’s own country” , THEN WHY 40% of MALAYALIS WORK OUTSIDE THE STATE , AND CONTRIBUTE 40% of the GDP of the state.
    UP’s GDP is probably three to four times that of kerala , but the population is six times that of Kerala, thus the low per capita GDP. Punjab has benifitted from MASS EMIGRATION/REPATRIATION OF FUNDS from WEST, just like KERALA , MOST OF ITS WEALTH IS GULF REPATRIATED MONEY.
    The North East has been totally neglected , there is no reason why UP /BIHAR cannot become No1, their GREATEST ASSET, there is no unionised labour, unlike the hell hole of kerala and west bengal.
    Despite all the loud proclamation , gujrat is 5th on the league table of state GDP.
    The ABC of economics , LAND AND PEOPLE RATIO, land denoting wealth , be it agro , mineral or OIL.
    INDIA NEEDS A REVOLUTION IS AGRICULTURE, that will push GDP many fold , PROVIDE FOOD TO THE 50% HUNGRY.
    There was a programme last sunday on BBC1 , CountryFile. England is mindbogglingly green with grass cover, yet it showed dairy and cattle farmer growing SPECIAL GRASS on PLASTIC TRAYS 4ft by 3ft , ROWS AND ROWS of them stacked one on top of another in shelves , drip computer controlled water and nutrients to these grasses . These are then used as cattle feed.
    IDEALLY SUITED FOR INDIAN CONDITIONS , with so little grass cover

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    why is everybody posting the same post twice?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Bad server response.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I am no expert on reservation but as far as I know when constitution was formed, reservation was part of it but at the same time it said that it should be phased out in a timely manner (I think probably 30 years).

    Now our politicians have made reservation as defacto permanent feature of Constitution misusing it for their own benefit.

    I think including muslims in this reservation pie will make it very complex and make it almost impossible to phase out reservations.

    I am of the opinion that no one except ST/SCs (poor only) should get reservation. I support reservation for them because thousands of years of discrimination requires at least few centuries of affirmative action.

    All other communities have been mostly well off compared to SC/STs with every community seeing their own quota of ups and down including muslims.

    According to me we should form a “Equal Opportunity Panel” that should impose strict “NO Discrimination” based on caste religion, language etc. and also including age and disability. Then it should scientifically find out (using experts not some retired judges) who have not been able to compete inspite of ‘NO Discrimination policy’. For all these communities, govt. should provide subsidized education, vocational training, financial help etc. but no reservation. The reservation will never help those who really need help. The reservations will be always hijacked by people who are rich and powerful amongst community needing help.

    I have personally seen that muslims backwardness is self inflicted. I was educated in muslim institution. Even our muslim professors gave up on muslim students who rarely attended the class but were seen hanging around in the campus with GIRLS or doing some goondagiri. They all were found in our college mosques on Friday without fail. Believe me all my muslim batchmate failed in the final year and later I came to know some of them took more than 2 years to clear back papers. Our college being minority institution gave priority to muslim students. In all the sports teams, muslims formed 100% of the team. All the class representatives and University representative were muslims. Despite so much of favoritism, most of the muslim students fared very badly when it came to academics. Many of these guys were my goods friends and still are but facts are facts. By the way there were also foreign muslim students who fared equally badly except for a nigerian student who was exceptional.

    What I want to say is that reservations is a failed idea because it has not delivered. We haven’t seen any dramatic improvement in conditions of SC/STs and OBCs. We need to do out of box thinking and help ALL our citizen get equal chance at achieving prosperity.

    I have also seen muslim separatism first hand but that is for some other topic.

    I still believe muslims coming from rural India are gem. I have met many of them and frankly they are best of the human beings I have ever met.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I am no expert on reservation but as far as I know when constitution was formed, reservation was part of it but at the same time it said that it should be phased out in a timely manner (I think probably 30 years).

    Now our politicians have made reservation as defacto permanent feature of Constitution misusing it for their own benefit.

    I think including muslims in this reservation pie will make it very complex and make it almost impossible to phase out reservations.

    I am of the opinion that no one except ST/SCs (poor only) should get reservation. I support reservation for them because thousands of years of discrimination requires at least few centuries of affirmative action.

    All other communities have been mostly well off compared to SC/STs with every community seeing their own quota of ups and down including muslims.

    According to me we should form a “Equal Opportunity Panel” that should impose strict “NO Discrimination” based on caste religion, language etc. and also including age and disability. Then it should scientifically find out (using experts not some retired judges) who have not been able to compete inspite of ‘NO Discrimination policy’. For all these communities, govt. should provide subsidized education, vocational training, financial help etc. but no reservation. The reservation will never help those who really need help. The reservations will be always hijacked by people who are rich and powerful amongst community needing help.

    I have personally seen that muslims backwardness is self inflicted. I was educated in muslim institution. Even our muslim professors gave up on muslim students who rarely attended the class but were seen hanging around in the campus with GIRLS or doing some goondagiri. They all were found in our college mosques on Friday without fail. Believe me all my muslim batchmates failed in the final year and later I came to know some of them took more than 2 years to clear back papers. Our college being minority institution gave priority to muslim students. In all the sports teams, muslims formed 100% of the team. All the class representatives and University representative were muslims. Despite so much of favoritism, most of the muslim students fared very badly when it came to academics. Many of these guys were my goods friends and still are but facts are facts. By the way there were also foreign muslim students who fared equally badly except for a nigerian student who was exceptional.

    What I want to say is that reservations is a failed idea because it has not delivered. We haven’t seen any dramatic improvement in conditions of SC/STs and OBCs. We need to do out of box thinking and help ALL our citizen get equal chance at achieving prosperity.

    I have also seen muslim separatism first hand but that is for some other topic.

    I still believe muslims coming from rural India are gem. I have met many of them and frankly they are best of the human beings I have ever met.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I am no expert on reservation but as far as I know when constitution was formed, reservation was part of it but at the same time it said that it should be phased out in a timely manner (I think probably 30 years).

    Now our politicians have made reservation as defacto permanent feature of Constitution misusing it for their own benefit.

    I think including muslims in this reservation pie will make it very complex and make it almost impossible to phase out reservations.

    I am of the opinion that no one except ST/SCs (poor only) should get reservation. I support reservation for them because thousands of years of discrimination requires at least few centuries of affirmative action.

    All other communities have been mostly well off compared to SC/STs with every community seeing their own quota of ups and down including muslims.

    According to me we should form a “Equal Opportunity Panel” that should impose strict “NO Discrimination” based on caste religion, language etc. and also including age and disability. Then it should scientifically find out (using experts not some retired judges) who have not been able to compete inspite of ‘NO Discrimination policy’. For all these communities, govt. should provide subsidized education, vocational training, financial help etc. but no reservation. The reservation will never help those who really need help. The reservations will be always hijacked by people who are rich and powerful amongst community needing help.

    I have personally seen that muslims backwardness is self inflicted. I was educated in muslim institution. Even our muslim professors gave up on muslim students who rarely attended the class but were seen hanging around in the campus with GIRLS or doing some goondagiri. They all were found in our college mosques on Friday without fail. Believe me all my muslim batchmates failed in the final year and later I came to know some of them took more than 2 years to clear back papers. Our college being minority institution gave priority to muslim students. In all the sports teams, muslims formed 100% of the team. All the class representatives and University representative were muslims. Despite so much of favoritism, most of the muslim students fared very badly when it came to academics. Many of these guys were my goods friends and still are but facts are facts. By the way there were also foreign muslim students who fared equally badly except for a nigerian student who was exceptional.

    What I want to say is that reservations is a failed idea because it has not delivered. We haven’t seen any dramatic improvement in conditions of SC/STs and OBCs. We need to do out of box thinking and help ALL our citizen get equal chance at achieving prosperity.

    I have also seen muslim separatism first hand but that is for some other topic.

    I still believe muslims coming from rural India are gems. I have met many of them and frankly they are among the best of the human beings I have ever met (most of them are sufis).

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    the followers of ram lalla paralysed moradabad for one complete year.pakistan and korea took our trade.another feather in the cap.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vinod talks about Pakistan crisis, we here discuss reservations, while our politicians are taking us for a Disney ride!

    India’s solution, like China’s, rests with robust economic growth. Growth does trickle down, creates motivational environment for lower rungs. We will not discuss reservation five – eight years from now if we grow at 14-15% per year. We will have other problems to discuss – pollution, overcrowding etc

    Politicians are dividers/distributors. We have to have more creators, small business/medium business/large business formations, appropriate funding assistance,abundant electricity etc Other things will follow

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shoeb

    You have stolen the words from my mouth. I fear we may be in for bad times.

    Let us face it. We are incapable of moving ahead unless somebody gives us a danda. The same Indian who spits on the road here and jumps the red light will be the most law abiding citizen abroad.

    The last danda we got was from the IMF when socialist policies made us bankrupt. I fear that the Manmohan Montek Singh era may well be over and instead a Digvinash Rahul world of woolly socialism strikes and paralysis by iginiting communal passions will be back.

    Have you ever heard any Congressman except Chidmabaram or Manmohan ever give a good idea on enterprise and growth?

    Chances are VP SIngh styled politics of social divsions will be created by Yamraj and company. We need to make sure they dont grab power.

    Prahlad– you too should change your horses.Think of the welfare of India… not of the Gandy parivaar….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    The question for you somewhere down below – just few posts down.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    ~~ THE PERFECT WAY OF CHOOSING– eligible people for reserrvation ~~~
    ————————————————————————————————————————–

    @ Prahlad and others

    Frankly I am not too enamoured by the idea of reservations after a certain point. They are needed to propel people with a disadvantage forward. And can be a tool for removing histrorical imbalances.

    However I firmly believe that all this talk about 1000nds of years of injustice is all but state failure. In 1950 we were 35 crores. So if 50% suffered the burden of 1000’s of years of burden, then it was 17 crores.

    Today we are 122 crores. Now we calim 80 crores suffer from 1000’s of years of injustice.

    In case we becaome 150 crores (hopefully not! ) another 20 crores will suffer from 1000’s of years of injustice. All bloody bull…

    And bad policy

    We need to DEMOLISH THE CASTE SYSTEM thru aggressive anti caste sentiments in education. Thru media and social discourse.

    Then only will this humbug end. As for the perfecct way to find the eligiblity criteria…

    wait for my next posting. I have recieved an important cal…. on the phone…. :D

    Y

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    ~~ THE PERFECT WAY OF CHOOSING– eligible people for reserrvation ~~~
    ————————————————————————————————————————–

    @ Prahlad and others

    Frankly I am not too enamoured by the idea of reservations after a certain point. They are needed to propel people with a disadvantage forward. And can be a tool for removing histrorical imbalances.

    However I firmly believe that all this talk about 1000nds of years of injustice is all but state failure. In 1950 we were 35 crores. So if 50% suffered the burden of 1000’s of years of burden, then it was 17 crores.

    Today we are 122 crores. Now we calim 80 crores suffer from 1000’s of years of injustice.

    In case we becaome 150 crores (hopefully not! ) another 20 crores will suffer from 1000’s of years of injustice. All bloody bull…

    And bad policy

    We need to DEMOLISH THE CASTE SYSTEM thru aggressive anti caste sentiments in education. Thru media and social discourse.

    Then only will this humbug end. As for the perfecct way to find the eligiblity criteria…

    wait for my next posting. I have recieved an important cal…. on the phone…. :D

    Y

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay-
    Very few political leaders of India preach and practise growth oriented agenda –

    Most of the politicians are busy promoting dependency; the bureaucrats also like that idea because they get to be in charge of huge funds earmarked for “development”.

    Jayalalitha, Modi, Nitin etc are exceptions. They have a vision, they are decisive, and the results are inclusive.

    I was in Denver and in Silicon Valley in Dec-early Jan. It is amazing how they have these incubators connected with universities. Just imagine if we have these incubators associated with our IITs and NITs.

    Indian challenges are not Hindu or Muslim or Yadav or Iyer challenges — they are Indian challenges – roads, electricity, healthcare, poverty, etc shared by all, even rich people! .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    160 posts already and IT IS ONLY TUESDAY.
    In science terms this could be called RIZWAN EFFECT, hehe. Puttar well done, even my good friend from Bengaluru Shri Shenoy has slowly, agonisingly, thru clench teeth, hehe, admitted that very poor muslims should get reservation.
    But vijay is right, lot of muslim problems are internal and reservation should not be a permnent baisakhi. For my southerner friends Gopi and Shenoy, Baisakhi means crutches.

    Pervez, I am vaary keen to hear more details about the sermons u heard at Jama Masjid. Pl honestly report all

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder:

    A lot of duplicate comments have been posted because of the problems with Disqus.

    We are all glad to have Rizwan back; he and Pervez, and old timers such as Shoeb do definitely provide a realistic view/perspective as well as workable ideas.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Pervez, I am vaary keen to hear more details about the sermons u heard at Jama Masjid. Pl honestly report all

    PARVEZ awnser.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinderji,

    let me correct you. I am positively, affirmatively and willingly in favour of creating an urgent, immediate, purposeful and socially equitable support system, where the poorest and most backward Muslims get tangible help to uplift themselves from the grinding poverty and backwardness.

    what I am dead against is exploitation by the pseudo secular parties and NGOs of the huge mass of gullible, leaderless Muslim community.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder ji

    The intention of my blogging here is to fight a certain mindset and not so much about individuals. We all know who leads the prayers but it is not about him as an individual or the Mushawarti council which is an advisory board.

    it is about the direction some Muslim youth end up taking. I think if peer pressure and guidance from elders sets them on to a path of of liberal thought and national issues, it would be a huge victory for them and of course for the country.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    17th Jan 2012, should be remembered as the day , when the penny dropped. Now we know why RajivS is so fixated with the idea , that muslims need to get their just deserts.Now everything falls into place , we can see WHERE IT WAS ALL COMING FROM. I guess his student days that he describes is from ALIGARH UNIVERSITY, WELL ALIGARH MUSLIM UNIVERSITY. Now I can understand the rich spoilt brat the erstwhile landowner’s children behave the way they behaved. THEN IS THAT AN UNIQUE CASE. Have you seen the GREAT film SHOOL by N Srinivas.
    The MAWALIS in that film were also college students , SADLY ALL HINDUS AND BIHARIS. Now West Bengal dons the mantle piece of THE MAWALI STUDENTS OF INDIA(these only apply to small district colleges, though at one point during CPM’s PLAGUE rule , every college was outdoing each other in Mawaliness.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Your imagination is running wild. Unlike you I form opinion about others after interacting with them long term. I have very good muslim friends who call spade a spade. Some of them share my view of Islam as well but only in private.

    You are ill informed about many issues because all you do is slam everyone. One day you slam hinduism then second day Islam then India then pakistan…Isn’t that a typical bengali behaviour..always cribbing and criticizing. You had posted lofty thoughts on bengal how bengali politics is non-criminal..I posted a article and corrected you.

    Your views are that of a divorced wife who finds nothing good in her ex-husband. You need to have at least some ideology rather than being Thali ka Baigan.

    Shan, I am still waiting for your reply on why 70% of the bengalis are muslims.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    sufi movement and extreme suppression of brhmns(in bengal)were the main.they were not hindus.they were slaves of hindu system.left the savery when got better opportunity.

    many times shan wrote about inhuman aprtheid hindu samaj of bengal.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Aaloke

    As you suggest lets discuss and not argue, though I am not sure I know the difference.

    It is the responsibility of the state to ensure that it creates a level playing field for women and minorities thorough preferential treatment being granted to them in the field of higher education admissions, government contracts, and recruitment for public sector jobs – such as Police, Army etc. where Muslims are disproportionately underrepresented.

    This is common practice in the USA where the Civil Rights Act 1964 and several subsequent court judgments have ensured that right-wing reactionary forces do not succeed in eroding this morally defensible position.

    Often the criteria used for inclusion in affirmative programmes are race, ethnicity, religion, disability and age. While the implementation of such actions vary from state to state in the USA and from country to country in Europe, the US supreme court on a number of occasions has reaffirmed the constitutionality of such programmes.

    Similar Supreme Court cases have been adjudicated in Andhra and the Supreme Court of India.

    A number of Minority commissions (Gopal Singh Committee) have painted a dismal picture of the position of Muslims. The panel made a large number of recommendations for its improvement through various short-term and long-term measures. But not much was ever implemented for a very long time. Sacher Committee and Ranganath Misra Commission, reported similar conclusions.

    The issue in this Blog is not so much as people do not support affirmative action,They do. Their main opposition is, it being offered on the basis of religion, read Muslims. This is less than thinly disguised display of deep rooted Islamophobia. Despite being rulers of India, Muslims were the subject of social injustice during the British Raj and to some extent that legacy continued post-independence. A significant majority of them are suffering from structural disadvantage for which affirmative action is the right remedial action.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Whatever Congressis-Jihadis say, reservation is a failed idea because it has not delivered in 63 years and will not deliver anything other than consolidate vote banks for casteists and communal parties. It is a regressive idea that should be rejected except in the case of SC/STs.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This subcontinent has close to 450 million divided equally between Pakistan, India and bangladesh. We all know muslims are treated as first class citizen and enjoy almost 100% reservation in Pak and BD. Now if we give muslims reservation in India too, are we not fulfilling the agenda of Jinnah? If that is so what was the need to divide India.

    Can someone reply?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    division ofnation between hindu and muslim is not natural.it is rss imagination.
    real division is haves and haves not.creation of pakistan was the result of clash between muslim landlord headed by raja mahmoodabad and bania force headed by ghandhi.religion was brought to hide the truth.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    “Khairat se aaj tak koi ameer nahi bana”. There is no substitute for hard work.

    reservation is not khairat it is right.muslims are hard working people.u people are dallals and thieves.promoters of all types of evils in northern india.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Quota for Muslims has hijacked the blog topic. Nothing new (as we like it this way)! I remember Ashish once suggesting Zia in his blog, he (Zia) can even write Jana Gana Mana and get away as people hardly bother:-)

    Is positive discrimination required? Yes, to the deserved candidates.( I know of a weaver’s son, who was working till 9 in the morning before going to school. In spite of it, he topped the school. But even if he had got 70% againstst a 90% merit student I would consider his achievement is higher (I am not with Balwinder here. He wants a surgeon who scored no less than 90%). Can the caste/religion be a creteria? It can be part of a criteria, not the full. I mean, when a Dalit gets killed for entering a temple in rural India, positive descrimination makes sense. But if it is taken by Dalit officer’s son in a city (which is what is happening), it fails. If politicians had concerns for “real backwards”, they should have taken the creamy layour out. (That includes Dalits as well, so not in agreement with Rajeev). Without it, everything else is just a drama. While giving reservation, along with the caste, add income criteria and urban/rural criteria. People will not mind whether reservation is 20% or 40%, if they know the person who got it deserved it; whether it was a son of cobbler who was Hindu or daughter of vegetable seller who was Muslim). Whenever the topic of removing creamy layour comes in, people will speak of higher percentage of Brahmins in the jobs compared to other castes, which have a higher share in society. encouragement, historical advantage etc. But despite all remedies, if the result gets repeated.. then a politically incorrect statement..” if opportunity and talent is unequally distributed, then allowing people to exercise that talent and opportunity means more inequality… (but which would bring prosperity to country) –,Thatcher.

    Prahlad’s question, how does one quickly decide who is backward; there have been scientific surveys done by committees. But nobody has the guts to implement them in the right spirit.

    As far Muslims getting reservations and India getting divided, it was introduced way back in Karnataka (Mysore kingdom then), along with other backward classes by Maharaja of mysore in early 1900s. How many muslims from Karnataka migrated to Pakistan? Maharaj of Mysore (very much like Thiruvankur) had real concern for the upliftment of his people, not votebanks. Post independence also, we had Dev Raj Urs as CM, who brought social reforms and land reforms in 70s. Lot of time, people compare Dev Raj Urs with Kanshiram. While Kanshiram brought assertiveness to Dalits, what Urs did was even more. He brought the reforms to lift backward classes (while he did not belonged to them), by implementing Havanur report. Muslim quota among OBCs was introduced in early 80s or 90s (most southern states still have). But there is a difference between the one which is applied in South Indian states and the one Centre is planning. In South, creamy layours of Muslims are not included in reservation (rightfully). Shoeb might know more.

    Another stupidity is how people speak about caste/religion unity, while speaking about backward groups within them. Veerappa Moily, when he was chief minister of Karnataka dared to take the creamy layour out of backward classes according to Chinnappa Reddy commission recommendations. But the caste heads (read Swami’s of Matas, to be even more precise Jagadguru of Gowdas) protested, saying government is trying to divide their community. Large rally was arranged, where villagers came in Lorries sent by somebody and shouted slogans, “We won’t let anyone break our unity”. I was passing near the ground in the afternoon, saw two elderly men in their village clothes drinking coconut in the hot sun. They didn’t seem to understand, they have gone there to protest against a law, which could have actually taken care of them against those who sent Lorry, who are making speeches in the ground. But to them, their “caste unity” was important. I see the same thing with Muslim community as well. http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-30Nov04-Print-Editi on/163011200463.htm Workers in Bhiwadi plant may need reservation. But not Parvez or Rizwan.

    Ravi’s “ideal world” never exists in reality. If I were to belong to a well to do backward community family, who has got a seat in a prestigious college for a lesser marks, I won’t leave it for “some unseen boy” who could be” in a village, living under poverty.
    http://www.igovernment.in/site/Creamy-layer-slab-hiked-to-Rs-4.5-lakh (Read the replies there in). Law makers should not assume an ideal situation; they have to make realistic laws which consider, it is natural for a human being to be selfish.

    Recycling from my earlier post:
    An instance from Bangalore, public transport buses have some seats reserved for ladies. Intention? Elderly ladies, mother of kids etc cannot compete with fit men to grab seats and some of these men are not kind enough to get up and give the seat when a needy person arrives. Result after reservation? Young and fit college girls grab it with fierce competition and some among these girls also are not kind to needy people.

    Reservations- all though intentions are good, can’t lift the really unprivileged (unless governments have will power, which they don’t). It can only shift one form of exploitation to the other. (They are much like fly over which move traffic jam from one point to other). Before it could have been Forward class exploiting the backward class -> shifted to other backward class exploiting Dalits -> Now creamy layer of Dalits in city (children of Dalit officers) exploiting an unprivileged Dalits in rural area (taking the reservation seats meant for the really deserving ones).

    But parties are not bothered as long as it pulls some votes in election. As for Congress’s “genuine conern for minorities”, it does not specify which classes are getting benefitted. If it puts upper class muslims and jains also under minority quota, can ansaris compete with them? Also if quota is applied to whole relegion, Supreme court will straight away bin it, as it is against constitution. But anyway, election would have been over by then.
    Regarding BJP’s concern that India gets divided with such a quota system, it is existing in the state it is ruling for years and it has never bothered to alter it.
    So what is the conclusion at the end? Don’t take the drama too seriously. Everything will remain same. India will not break and backwards will remain backwards.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay,

    ” Law makers should not assume an ideal situation; they have to make realistic laws which consider, it is natural for a human being to be selfish.”"

    That is what I have been saying. When makeing laws, human nature is
    not considered. Man by nature is selfish and greedy, he will always try
    to exploit the situation to his benefit.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Vinay

    Interesting post. I was always intrigued why Karnataka went along the IT line before Andhra and Tamil Nadu. Maybe it had something to do with better infrastructre and land reforms.

    In contrast Andhra does have a sizeable Naxalite problem, again in contrast to Karnataka. Less population?

    But dont be a pessimist. I always believe that targetted interventions in terms of opportunities along with DEMOLISHING caste could be the way out. Rather than re-emphasising it all the time.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Here are the real liberals taking on Islamic fundoos-
    http://ibnlive.in.com/cnnibnvideos/mostviewed-us/221739.html

    Shan,
    you should definitely watch this.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Ethnic pull is more powerful than any religion and there is no such religion in the world which can weld different communities together. Even revolutionary Islam, which normally transforms a person after conversions, remains a house divided. Pakistan, called an Islamic republic, is the best exampleThe Hindu nazis want to use anti-Muslim hatred to unite the SC/ST/BCs.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    .muslims should forgive him but goverment should not allow him to come here frequently .will he be able to come india if he use the same language about ghandhi or shivajee.comparison with mf hussain is uncalled for.
    painting which he painted was painted by hindu painters millions of times before.he was attacked only because he was muslim.by hindu rascist

    points raise by ruchir are wrong.salman has lot of relatives in pak army who ignored them,in time of need,when he went to pakistan.he was in need penguine(zoinist organization) offered him 5 million pound to write bullshit.he agreed and wrote.i have read the book.without propaganda,nobody will read it.it is a selling tactcs.now election are so evil anti-people brhmnst forces are strenghting their base.as they have no economic programme.cnn too is zoinist media.

    why news papers are giving so much publicity to his visit.if goverment has issued, visa this is their responsibility to provide protection.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan cannot view this video clip.
    Shan’s hands are full (with the behinds of night duty nurses from West Indies).

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    RAVI- WHY DID I LEAVE 1 YEAR AGO

    In the last blog you asked a strange question- why did I leave 1 year ago? Dude you serious ????????????????????
    Yes, one year ago I was still a bit immature and used to get quite disturbed by your intimidation of anyone who did not fit in with your ugly anti hindu agenda. All 3 of you hounded me outta here- dr shan, ramavtar and yourself.

    shan used to use filthy language on me, the bar steward was obsessed with my foreskin which I found vulgar. But you were very mean to me too and too others who disagreed with you or cracked any harmless joke on you. YOUR FILTHY JOKE OM BALWINDER UNCLE’S SON AND WIFE WAS DEPRAVITY PERSONIFIED, YOU ARE SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You seem to have toned down your act this year. Anyways this lil feller has also grown up and if you ever try your mean stuff on me again I shall come to Sialkot and strip you naked in the market square. and dont give me this new ‘I am a sikh in UK shit’ who else but a pakistani would abuse the hindu gods like you did.

    we muslims in indiacondemn such attacks

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rizwan

    Welcome back !! I have posted a reply to your query on reservation along religious lines. I hope u did read it !

    I think you should not let Ravi or Engrich upset you. They have their own agenda and view Muslims as puppets who they want to fit under their own agenda. They would want to be the self appointed spokesmen for Muslims, without realising that the world has moved on.

    Even Shoeb and Pervez find them sick and backward. In fact when these two guys talk about assimilation and Indian-ness, they immediately get reprimanded and abused by Ravi and Engrich.

    By the way I do travel to Bhiwadi for checking out some industrial constructions as I an engineering consultant. Though the work we did in Bhiwadi was nothing to boast about !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan,

    I salute you for this post.

    Not because you have painted the true picture of this fake Ravi, who is asli jihadi and Pakistani fundoo.

    But because you have shown the spunk to stand up to his bullying and abuse.

    Let me also console you with the remark that most of the bloggers here, except his friend, the congressi troll, engrich, and Shan the stow-away compounder, have been the victims of his foul language and extremely obscene sexist abuses.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dilli, UP aur Haryana mein chal rahi hai hawa bahut sard,
    Apna Rizwan ban gaya hai poora mard,
    Ab usse kisi ki baton ka asar nahin hota,
    vyango or gaaliyon ka use nahin hoga koi dard.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    In the last blog you asked a strange question- why did I leave 1 year ago? Dude you

    it was right decision.better take knowledge read good books.dont waste ur time here.u are young can enter anytime latter.i am not happy on ur return.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Engrich you are not happy with Rizwan. You are not happy with Pervez.

    You are only happy with Gen Zia and Osama :)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Agar Rizwan ne koshish ki Engrich ko karne ki khush,
    To Rizwan se ham sab ho jaenge nakhush.

    Anonymous Reply:

    absolutely na khush !

    engrich Reply:

    i am very happy with both.they should spend their time in something productive to him and society.trying to make people like u and others happy is a useless exercise.
    TUM LOG KABHI SUDHAR NAHIN SAKTE HO.

    studies will make him more strong and confident.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Engrich

    Your time of spreading communal hatred and fundamantalism has gone. You should go for vanprastha ashram alonmg with your close buddy in arms. Both can create a conspiracy to create hate up in the next world…

    engrich Reply:

    i am fighting communal hatred .if i saythat hungry families should be given half piece of bread ,what is wrong init.u call me communal only because benefiary will be muslim.this shows ur narrowmindedness and disrespect to humanity.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan,

    WOW.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan-
    Well, let bygones be bygones; please do contribute. You bring a youth “current” on the ground perspective that is quite important in these discussions – Ravi has been long gone from India to UK , Shan and Dr Mishra and balwinder also are writing from UK, Shenoy, Manohar, Vinay, Prabhat, and I are much older and definitely apt to miss the youth perspective; Mohan in between young and old; you, Pervez, Shoeb,Vijay, Aaloke etc bring an entirely different perspective, a perspective on how the young view India and its problems.

    btw how is your gf in Lahore?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Shall I provide a point by point response, or would you counsel me to leave it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    My advice, if I can, is to look forward and not to go backward.

    I hope he will stay engaged; and as mature and older people we should encourage him, but of course pinpoint flaws in arguments

    Ravi Reply:

    Done

  • Anonymous

    Sharmaji,
    A humble request for you and your IT folks.
    Please maintain a separate blog post for folks in here to settle personal scores.
    That way, those who intend to really discuss will be spared of this “fun”.
    As a suggestion the blogpost may be titled – “Let Us Settle Our Personal Scores”.
    While at it – we may want to consider another blog post “Let Me Guess Your Ethnic / National Origins and re-assign you a Label”.
    Alternately, a single Blog-Post titled “Gaali – Let Us Exchange Abuse” should be sufficient .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh,

    a far better alternative would be for you to start the blog, where you can invite your congressi troll and jihadi friends with Vinod Sharma nominated as the chief patron.

    And on your own blog, nobody can accuse you of posting long boring cut-and paste jobs to your heart’s content as also some of the regulation irrelevant, out-of-syllabus themes.

    Khoob jamega aap ka yeh blog and khoob jamegi aap ki “company”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Only you could have come up with such a reply .
    Very good one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh

    Your tongue-in-cheek request has a rejoinder by what else! – abusive labels (part of their daily constitutionals). What does it indicate? Sheer deficiency in comprehending anything more than three & half lines long and hence unable to debate.

    Speaks volumes.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Now that the Government has made up its mind to escalate the dispute with General Saab rather than de-escalate it and settle it discreetly, and more muck is expected to be thrown up and an offensive has been launched in the media to discredit Gen Singh . One of the prime arguments is that he should have resigned first rather than defy civilian Executive authority ( i.e the government ) and amounts to contravention of military discipline.
    Well how would the proponents of this argument respond to the recent revelations about the 1971 war , when Gen Sam Manekshaw refused to attack and go to war with Pakistan in defiance of PM Indira Gandhi and the CCS. Gen Manekshaw flatly told PM Indira Gandhi that he shall can go to war only after the monsoon was over and when he can prepare the army for the the war. He did not listen even to then Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram who tried persuading him.
    Here the issue pertains to the Date of Birth on the Chief , a personal detail, and has nothing to do with his obligations and duties as the Chief of the Indian Army.
    But who cares ..he is dealing with a government of scamsters and scumsters..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen,

    They are not only scamsters and scumsters, they are also egoistic and
    anti India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think dragging the armed forces into dispute is sad. They could have been a secret negotiated settlement wiht the General who otherwise has a good record. Maybe offer of a governership or extending his tenure by six months etc.

    The government is on a backfoot and is only run by lawyers.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen Saxenaji,

    the argument put forth by the governmentalists is too specious. There are hundreds of instances of serving officers petitioning the JAG for remedy in service conditions and grievances. Because he heads the mechanism of in-house army court, he has been advised by four former chief justices of the supreme court not to resign and also to file a petition in the SC against the treatment meted out to him as also to get his just claim on the date of birth accepted.

    The pity is that a wise, honest MOD, Antony, should be the spearhead of the government’s spiteful, ill-advised action against the COAS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Honest MOD, Antony’s situation can be described in this way :

    BECHARI RAZIA FAS GAYEE GOONDO KE JAAL MEIN.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen Sir,

    The latest news is that this is not the case between Army vs Govt , but between 2 wings of army. You may check today’s MORNING newspapers.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar-
    What Karunanidhi etc handed out/promised during elections was mostly a “one time” inducement, such as a TV set, grinder etc and not a perpetual, unsustainable stream like 1000 Rs unemployment allowance, free electricity etc that Maulayam is promising now.

    Now he can promise anything and execute on that.. My question is how will the state fund? Who will shoulder the short fall (centre?)?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    One time or for perpetual is a matter of degree. It is a criminal waste of tax payer’s money in both the cases. Include Mayawati Putlibai’s indulgence in self glorification too.

    Almost all the states (I think everyone) have overdrafts with the RBI running into lacs or thousands of crores of rupees (deficit financing), again a matter of degree between them and there is no chances that they will be ever be able to repay them. The current dispensations are splurging and the future generations will have to pay. Criminal.

    Many years ago, NTR in AP promised rice at Rs 2 per kilo (as one his promises) and won a landslide victory. He had the audacity to approach the central government to fund the scheme and was told ‘you made the promise and now go find the money, do not come to us’.

    Subsidies, freebies and all those sort of things come at the expense of tax payer’s money. If these reaches to the really deserving then it is perfectly justifiable, but does it ( I doubt it very much) ?

    As we have discussed, let there be cash transfers to the deserving and let there be no subsidies and freebies of any kind. Corruption will be greatly reduced – no need for a Lokpal.

    Look at the offer of free electric power to a certain sections – farmers and weavers. On paper there will be more farmers and weavers in UP than the actual number and all will get power without responsibility (money) – a dangerous situation. Another avenue for corruption will get inaugurated.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    HOT NEWS:

    SAHARA has withdrawn its sponsorship to the Indian Cricket Team.. The new sponsor is “Whisper Ultra” as the Team is going through its worst PERIOD..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy Saab, MohanR, Vijay
    It is most unfortunate that this issue had to come out in the public domain. A word about Defence Minister A K Antony. My complaint against him is that he is so obsessed with preserving his personal image of honesty , that he avoided going in for any new procurement to upgrade the defence forces.Whereas our main threat China is rapidly increasing its defence capabilities , India’s preparednesscapabilities are stagnant. Our Foreign policy is now so defensive and so dependedent on foreign powers especially the US that we are no longer as independent to take decisions as we should be. I have always believed that along with economic prowess military strike capabilities should also grow if India is to emerge as a strong and powerful nation .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gen Singh Vs Govt is going to be a media circus. I personally think this should have been settled behind the scenes (Shishir’s “Hitting the General below the Belt indicates that was in process; however some insider leaked negatively tainted info to the press); however, if the General has to appeal to the Supreme court, he should.

    I personally wish if he had organized a coup!

    Antony, I am sure, must have got Mrs Gandhi’s preference on this.

    I do not agree that defence infrastructure has been compromised. I am glad we are getting good stuff from US. At least they will perform. Can you imagine our young pilots flying homegrown/made fighter jets? Dont you think the prevailing corruption will compromise quality and an unreliable product will be put out…

    However, I am hesitant about Israeli dealings — they are a lot of noise and monkey business beneath

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi Sir,

    There has been some changes in your thought process recently. I can not figure out exactly. But you sound little unsure in recent times, different from your usual self. Just an observation.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks Prahlad..

    I am agitated by the sh— happening around. And that has made me question this whole system of “democracy”. May be I am a part of all these unsettlings going on around the world – that the system is rigged, the ruling class (whether parliamentarians or dictators) manipulate…

    There was a news four days ago about an old patient dying in a Jodhpur hospital ICU, not because ICU did not have the supporting machinery, but because rodents ate his flesh. Two days ago there was a news about one Usha Devi dying on the streets of Kolkotta after delivering twins.

    I am waiting for the Lord of Dwapara Yuga to settle the score..

    “Paritranaya Sadhunam vinasaya ka dusktram
    Dharma Samsthanpanateya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge”

    India’s womb is blessed. Another Mahathma Gandhi will arise. That is the hope.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi Sir,

    I understand your pain. Sometimes one feels so helpless. But as somebody said you are a perpetual optimist, i am sure you will come out of this low phase and empower people around you to make the difference.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    I hope I don’t offend you. You quote more from Gita than Bible. Just curious.

    Anonymous Reply:

    rajeev–
    I am a proud Idia

    rajeev
    i m a proud Indian who considers Mahabharath, Ramayan India’s crown jewels; Bhagavad Gita a universal testament.. My family traces itsroots to a Namboodiri family eons ago….Most of the kerala christians are well versed in indian classics 9may be more than Hindus!).. in fact it was a Christian who put together indexes of all puranic characters, linke dthem with their father/son and their claim to fame etc..a 2000 page book called “puranic” i Malayalam.. .
    n

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    Like you are a proud Indian and a proud Kerala Christian, I am proud to have you as my neighbour.

    Anonymous Reply:

    tks Mohan and BVS..
    THIS COUNTRY IS TOO IMPORTANT FOR THUGS TO PILLAGE AND RAPE..I do get discoraged at times; but being disinterested is not a solution– We shall overcome

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    And I am proud to be your fellow blogger.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Have you ever thought of coming back to Hindu fold?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    The case against the General goes something like this. With his 1950 DOB, he kept getting promoted on the basis of seniority as one of the factors. I am not questioning his merit and capabilities – he fully deserves where he is today. When it is time to go, he comes out with 1951 DOB, with which he probably would not have become the Chief of Army Staff or perhaps would have become one at a later date.

    Coup in India! Remember we are an imperfect democracy, but a democracy and our army generals know their standing in the system.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Simple issues of administration are of no interest to a government only interested in dynastic succession.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    The recent happenings have scared the officials to take decision. Today anything can be challenged and a motive could be attributed. It’s natural for officials to be cautious. A small noting in a file, an observation can destroy an official’s career. It’s not that this will be like forever. People will find their way out and start working within the constraints. The decision making process will pick up, though slowly.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    For all the buglers and drumbeaters of the institution of Lokpal.

    ————

    Setback to Modi, Gujarat HC upholds lokayukta’s appointment

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gujarat/Setback-to-Modi-Gujarat-HC-upholds-lokayukta-s-appointment/Article1-798768.aspx

    1) No Lokayukta was appointed for 8 years
    2) When one was appointed (as per 1986 law), it was challenged.
    3) The case has been lost in High Court.
    4) The state government is going to file a petition in the Supreme Court.

    What do Anna’s supporters have to say on whether the verdict of the High Court should be challenged or not. Why not let the appointee assume his duties immediately and start looking into alleged corruption cases? Who’s afraid of Mr. R. A. Mehta? Agar koi gallat kaam hi nahi kiyaa hai to Darr kis baat kaa?

    I know the grounds for challenging the decision – the CM not being consulted, etc. etc. In fact. it was his duty to see that one was appointed 8 years ago. I can see that others will be blamed for the delay, but not the great man himself. It always someone else’s fault in case of …………..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am happy that HC has upheld Lokayukta appointment. BJP can not be hypocritical when it comes to curbing corruption.

    I hope Sheila Dixit too follows Lokayukta orders and sack erring ministers.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Once you mention Sheila Dixit be prepared to be greeted with silence.

    The fact is people are divided on Congress- BJP platform but are not willing to actually support corruption fighters…

    Vinod Sharmaji is on TV smiling that Now Modi will finally be trapped. But of course… nothign about Sheila…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have “learnt” from you that ’silence is golden’ when comforted with discomforting situations and questions or obfuscate the matter by bringing in other people’s misdeeds.

    Now let me see which option should I exercise
    1) Discretion being the better part of the valour and keep quiet.

    or

    2) Bring a third person’s misdeeds to obfuscate – how about the alleged mining scam in MP CM’s own backyard?

    None of the above seem to appeal to me, so I will take the easy way out and make you happy. If Sheila Dixit is not taking action against erring ministers, then I condemn her.

    Now will I be greeted with ‘thundering” silence from you (, being in favour of Lokpal and a Anna supporter) on the original question of a ’small’ matter of appointment of Lokayukta in Gujarat, pending for 8 long years?

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    I condemn all illegal mining. Whether in karnataka which was started under SM Krishna, in Andhra under Congress govenment of Reddy and now in your own state under the patronage of the Congress.

    In Haryana where i go twice a week for work there is illegal mining going on around the clock since 1990 despite strong Supreme court strictures. And Chautala and Congress have been in power all those years.

    Frankly all polticians are corrupt. The SP, mayawait and Madhu Koda the most. Then followed by the Congress. The BJP is probably the least. I have no special love for it.

    I lived in a government colony once and was a neighbour of LK Advani. I may fault him for a thousand things but would never believe he could be corrupt. As a steller example and sharp contrst to the Gandy parivar he did not get his son or daughter to succeed him and they are in Dry fruit business and daughter a TV presenter.

    Many of these BJP guys can be over religious– which I find boring. But I dont find them to be even 20% corrupt as the Congress.

    Anonymous Reply:

    If Congressi commits murder and rape, the trolls find hundred ways to defend them as recently happened in Rajasthan when 11 muslims were murdered by police inside the mosque or Bhanwari devi mistress of congress minsiters was hacked to death or Gehlot’s family’s corruption…

    However when it comes to BJP, even a slight hint of wrongdoing makes these trolls go ballistic.

    What about proportional response?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,

    the congressi troll had “disapproved” of the ‘misdeed’ in Vinod Sharma’s blog a month back. Remember?

    No?

    Scratch your head, don’t you recall?

    Still no?

    Remember what the police-car-thief-SHO did when Vijay Kumar confronted him?

    Anonymous Reply:

    A very long post You did not disappoint me, ‘thundering silence’ about the original post, but ‘lot of noise” about everybody else. What a waste of time and effort? Blimey, one ‘holier than holy’ cow and a numerous evil cows around. I should learn the ‘art’ of obfuscation from you.

    Concluding remarks.

    1) Yes, you are against Gandhi parivar, there is no doubt about it. but the ‘loyal’ foot solders the BJP platoon is of the family, they carried on doing the same – dynastic politics. Remember the numerous BJP examples I had given you some blogs earlier or have you chosen to be denial about them?

    2) More corrupt or less corrupt, but corrupt nevertheless.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    You are right. One can not say Mr Advani indulged in “corrupt practices” as he never took Money as Bribe.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Can you say same for your SoniaG?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Wow!!! What a condemnation!!! IF…THEN …IF…THEN in case of Congress and when it comes to BJP, HE IS GUILTY, HE IS GUILTY…

    Congressi hypocrisy has no parallel.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Modi should gracefully accept the court’s good decision and move on.

    ,

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    This is not about Modi alone. Most of the politicians across parties do the same, they just keep litigating. The maximum number of cases clogging our judicial system are the ones filed by the governments (central, state, departments, Municipalities, PSUs, etc.) all over the country.

    I wish they would paid heed to your view.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~~ the perfect way of finding ~~~ PEOPLE WHO NEED RESERVATIONS ~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    Rizwan said that the Paswans and Yadavs drive Toyotas while Muslims are being deprived.

    Prahlad felt that the resource planner needs a quick formula for fidning 176 poor people in Delhi,

    Rajeev experienced reverse discrimination in a minority college.

    Gopi gave sound reasons that situation varies from state to state.

    Now here is my take :
    ——————————-

    a) Use the UID number and PAN number for all property and high value vehicle and
    white goods purchase. Since most of vehicles are now bank financed we can easily trace out the richer sections of the backwards and get them off the reservation list.

    b) Get the local SDM to certify that the person is elgibale because of income criteria

    c) Finish of caste based reservations and switch it to backward area/ low income reservations. Voter ID cards, UID can be again used to target the really needy.

    d) Most of all get cheap but high quality education with scholorships available for all in the most backward districts especailly those of Muslims.

    I think if we can send the Chandrayan to the moon, we can surely make a fool proof agenda for targetting the really needy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    Hope the politicians allow UID card project to be completed.

    Chandrayan is much easier to achieve.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    Gopiji has changed and even I am changing.
    I agree with your above statement.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Prahlad

    I hope it is completed. Dont know why the Congress is destroying a huge huge achivement it can shout about. Any computer guy knows that a database is the basis of the internet.

    With a UID you could

    a) Collect more taxes by making it mandatory for purchases bigger than say 100000

    b) Keep a check on crime and criminals. If ID’s are requitedd at hotels, airports, stations… then criminals could always be traced

    c) UID’s will help in targeted intervention of subsidies and doles

    d) UID’s can be used for reservation and such policies.

    The list can be endless. If the NDA could tom tom its highways, the Congress could have used the UID as a unique achivement.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Prahalad
    Today i had to go to the police station in East Delhi to follow up a case of lost papers. Now this station has about 40 cars and 100 motorcycles recovered from auto thieves. And apparently all police stations have such vehicles. Well there is no central control room which informs the owners their vehicles have been found… and all these vehicles just rot away to junk…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,
    You are naive to say the least. In India police is actively involved in vehicle theft.

    The police get their cut from the thieves. The police recovers the stolen vehicle only when it belongs to VIP or some one connected to VIP or when it deosn’t get its cut from the thieves.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    Now let me tell you the funniest story then.

    My first car– A maruti 800 was stolen from outside my office some years back.

    Getting the insurance claim was a bit of a hassle then. But 4 months later–before I couldget the claim–a cousin of mine saw the vehicle– with the same number plate (!) — running in Meerut.

    And wonder of wonders– the SHO of the thana was using it. As a personal vehicle !!! :)

    I along with my brother rushed to Meerut. We knew a serving brigadier who then accompanied us to the police station.

    The SHO was scratching his balls when we entered his room. He was a dittoo of Yunuz pervez so you can imagine the scene.

    “Why are you using my car which was stolen from Delhi? ” I asked him angrily. Meanwhile
    the brigadier who had gone along with us called up the DIG and a local reporter.

    The SHO’s wig literally hit the ceiling and more importantly he stopped scratching his balls.

    “Sirjee I have purchased this second hand…” he grovelled.

    it was a really funny scene. The policeman using the stolen car which he would have of course got from the theif–probably free.

    Funnier part was that he wanted to buy it!! the going price for the second hand car was then 80,000/. He was willing to pay 1,00,000 just to
    “save his name and izzat…”

    I guess I am a bit of a nut case in these situations. I just wanted this to be over and got the car back to Delhi.

    And since I had purchased an Esteem after I had lost hte 800 I ended up selling it at 70,000…

    The report never came out in the paper. As the police probabl pressureised the reporter after we left.

    Anonymous Reply:

    When I was in Margao, Goa, someone stole all the cash from my room. When I approached police, they tried to get rid of me by saying “We will find out”..As expected nothing happened. I came to know that there was local thief who was known to be very fond of other’s cash and had good connection with local policemen.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    It’s not about IT. It’s all about human greed. The cops could do that even without IT. They do not have the inclination.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,
    I have worked with NIC in first four years of my career. This UID project will be huge failure and will finally pave way for more forgery, fraud and corruption. India is good at coming up with ideas (laws) but implementation always remain very poor.

    I was part of Voter ID card project looking after Orissa and Maharashtra but according to me it failed to meet its objective. First Voter ID cards were of absolutely poor quality open to manipulation. I hear that some one has been voting on my behalf for past 15 years…So much for Voter ID card. The people who are suppose to implement are absolute cheat. No technology can beat such corrupt people except for may be live biometric identification.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    I think the voters ID card is a huge huge improvement on what the situation was. It is probably becasue fo voter ID cards that perpetual riggers like Lalu and the left front could be overthrown.

    In delhi and the NCR– areas which I know well– all parties put their men at voting stations. SO when the voter flashes his card, they look at the list and check the face with the card. False voting is pribably down to 2-3%.

    I am sure the situation is still unsatisfactory in the inner cities and villages. But the days of Lalu and DP Yadav style of mass booth capturing are over. And even pro ruling party EC officers cannot rig too much.

    In case Voter ID cards were combined with CCTV footage at pooling stations, then chances of fake cards would be further reduced.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay

    Agree with you. The good new days are here and the major credit should go to Mr. T. N Seshan, who started using the powers he had to stop a lot of hanky-panky. The others who have come after him have been following his footsteps and have been improving the system. EVMs (there are many doubting Thomases around though) is also step in the right direction.

    No wonder, our EC is the envy of the world and our pride.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The same Seshan was not supported by any parties including Congress & BJP for Presidentship. The only exception was Shiv Sena.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am talking about Polling booth in Kanpur where someone has been casting my vote.

    I know firsthand how botched up this Voter ID card process was. There were thousands who got ID with wrong picture. Some women got men picture and vice versa. It was a mess. I hope it has improved with time.

    Before we go with UID full fledged, the govt. needs to work on lot of things especially Identity theft, remedy, privacy etc. In India most of the people have no idea what privacy means. You have to educate people o big scale and at the same time formulate laws so that no one including govt. misuses information in UID or related to UID. There is a possibility that govts. like the current UPA can use private information of adversaries to fix them. These kind of system work only in those country where people have SOME character not in countries like India where almost every second person is a cheat.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    People can not write few hundred lines of bug-free code even while working in the best possible corporate environment and after getting best possible incentives. Voter ID card project dealt with crores of bi-lingual data and thousands of semiskilled operators. The deadline was unrealistically tight. Moreover, the clients ( EC ) never estimated the costs properly for such works. They always went for the lowest bid. In the process, they compromised with the quality.

    Recently, I talked about the perils of dealing with “faceless” characters. During this large voter ID card project one deals with large number of operators who consider themselves to be faceless and try to get away doing deliberate mischievous acts. During one such project guys in night shifts deliberately put foul languages on the cards bearing pictures of pretty girls. Since a group of operators and supervisors colluded, the cards went out of the data center. It almost created a scandal. Though it was managed eventually with the help of District Collectors who were sensitive to the issue.

    Come to think of it, even Toyota recalls millions of cars.

    In initial phases during T. N. Sheshan days, a lot of mistakes happened as the project was to be completed in 10 months and hardly one could find trained professionals with bilingual data entry and image capturing software experience . Regular guys were trained for the job after barely 5 days of exposure. Everything was against the project. Low price, untrained professionals, enormity of the project and unrealistic deadlines. So the mistakes were natural. But I guess things have improved in recent times.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    I actually appreciate Congress’s low profile approach to the UID project and what eventually one could achieve through UID. Nominating Mr Nilekani showed that seriousness, commitment to the purpose and maturity in the decision making process. And the fact that Mr Nilekani decided to quit his cushy corporate job and accepted this role shows how serious the project must have been for the National interest. I was truly surprised by UPA’s decision to get Mr Nilekani for this job. It was a master stroke.

    Coming back to the UID project, we are going through the “Data Collection” Phase.

    That means while issuing UID acknowledgements, one would have all the biometric and historical data of a person.

    This way we can have data about both genuine and fraudsters.

    Later on, the data can be mined through a grid and you can filter out bad apples and take appropriate actions.

    If you make too much of noise about goodies and possibilities of UID at this stage, then the bad apples would avoid coming under UID and operate outside the net and still continue to evade.

    It’s like “stealth” design for war machines. Till the time you are not close enough to the target, you stay undetected and then hit hard with all force when you are close enough to the target. Same with the crime investigation or spy operation. Staying out of visibility is crucial during initial data collection phase.

    But guys with no vision or myopic vision, start beating drums about these things while they miles away from their target.

    They do it for self-glory, never for the benefit of the project.

    A bad martial artist would bring out all his weapons at the very first instance. But a good martial artist would play with the bare minimum necessary for the moment.

    So I actually got dis-appointed when people started deriding UID without understanding the merit of it.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,
    Inspite of reverse discrimination, I excelled in every field right from Academics to Sports. I was the only non-muslim person in cricket team opening the attack for our team.

    I still remember a muslim guy try to influence me by badmouthing Hindu practices. He was immediately countered by muslim friend because he knew that I would give back in same tone.

    I don’t believe in compromising with bullies no matter what. This is the reason I hate Congress led UPA govt. because all it does is bully everyone.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The latest victim of this bullying is Gen.V.K.Singh.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,
    Indian Army is very disciplined and I hope it remains so even with all these provocation from lungi wearing civillian authorities.

    But if this continues, we may see Lungimen hung upside down in Army HQ.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    The congress has certainly bullied all its opponents with the CBI and a mixture of trickery. Sad for the desh…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Not only opponents but also allies. I find it strange that sworn enemies SP and BSP are on the same side in Delhi. I saw poor Mulayam pledging support to UPA till 2014 and in UP Akhilesh is ready to bow to wishes of Congress. Looks like SP is fully in Congress’s net.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev, Vijay, Shenoy,

    The list of people and organisation bullied by this governement is very long. Latest victims are
    Baba Ramdev, Anna and his team, Google, Face book
    etc .

    Anonymous Reply:

    Isn’t it strange that Congress follows so-called GANDHISM but defends Gandhi with violence as was the case with play ‘Mee Nathuram Godse Boltoy’ or recent ink incident involving Sonia’s poster?

    This govt. is fascist in its nature and needs to be brought down but has firm backing of corrupt and criminals who get protection under Congress Raj.

    engrich Reply:

    ramdev is bussinesman anna is brhmnst.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Kumar,

    I am very curious to know, why all the congressmen have a fascination for the figure, ‘176′? Is it related to 786?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Tareq Fatah blast pakistan military

    Guys listen to this interview, it is long but interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lC3A7dbgQ&feature=player_embedded

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I can be dangerous, warns Mamata Banerjee

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata-/I-can-be-dangerous-warns-Mamata-Banerjee/articleshow/11531834.cms

    Excerpt

    Projecting herself as neutral, she repeatedly threatened that she could “turn out to be dangerous” and asked the CPM not to challenge her, find fault about her work.

    ————

    1) This is plain Dadagiri or is it Didigiri?

    2) Another megalomaniac on the eastern horizon. The triangle is complete with one lady in the north and another one in the South. No one is sight on the Western front as yet.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ‘We have support of 272 MPs’….One magalomaniac said that whom you worship.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Must read, except for those who yawn at anything more than …..

    The transparency paradox
    Santosh Desai

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citycitybangbang/entry/the-transparency-paradox

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Mohan has posted a wonderful video which needs repeating.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lC3A7dbgQ&feature=player_embedded
    Tarek Fatah – Author & Founder of Muslim Canadian Congress- wrote a book called- “The jew is not my enemy”
    Oh great- Maybe he should have written a book- The sky is blue, or The earth is round… but then maybe the Pakistanis need to learn ABC…It always did amaze me that most Pakistanis hate Jews so much despite never having met one in their lives.

    He also lays into the Army, into the immaturity of Imran Khan . Thanks Mohan, great video- the more and more of these articulate Pakistani voices speak up- maybe only 1% of the population right now- the sooner we will see a Pakistani spring

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    dr saheb ,
    jews are our cousins we dont hate them.we hate zoinists .i think 90%of the world hate them they are the secret perpetuators of most of the voilence in the world, likeworld wars.vietnam war atomic attack on japan,sept 11 etc etc.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    tahir gora is right on many i wish there is some indian who speak like this as well.all punjabi cities from amritsar to gurdaspur were muslim majority.they were force to leave.it was tragedy.why blame muslims hindus were also doing at far bigger level.
    pakistan was result of fight between hindu bania and muslim landlord.
    hindu bania to have complete control over economy so that country can be looted.banias got what they wanted,beggers became billionaires.
    muslim landlords were stupids they got nothing.except punjabi landlord
    muslims of india suffered maximum.partition was forced on them.

    his comments on balochistan is correct.they are being treated very badly.muslim punjabi is proud of being punjabi not arab.here he is speaking lie.

    democracy is good for counytries like pakistan or saudia.zardari regime is goverment of thieves which looted every thing.their trains aeroplanes ,steel mills,sui gas evrything is completely looted.

    geelani who had no money to pay school fees to his childrens.his wife purchased 80000 pound worth of goods from harrods.

    zardari govermnt is running on corruption,all his allies are paid hefty bribe to be in goverment.
    this is called ALIBABA CHALIS CHOR.saudia and gulf countries there is no democracy but people are happy and countries are developing very fast.democracy is modern tool in the hands of capitalist to rule.if any honest or nationalist leader has the end of allende saddam or ghaddafi.
    parvez mushsharf was better but he made many mistakes.

    u are indian ,u will always say that i am indian what is wrong.many muslims whose forefathers migrated recently say that my origin is arab /persian.i dont see anything wrong.
    main problem with muslim punjabi is ,they suppressed,have no ruling experience ,have slave blood.suddenly they got everything.

    muslim punjabis and bengalees were main benefiariy of partition like hindu migrants from that area.

    bengalee muslims have developed much more than indian pakis or lankans confirms that there is nothing wrong in islam or muslims.

    pakistan gone down because of amrican/russian interference in that area.
    the moment americans leave area,pakistan will progress very very fast.
    remmittance from abroad is 15 billion dollars.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Write more like this than your usual stuff. Temper your anguish, think logically and your writing will improve.

  • Anonymous

    RIZWAN vs RAVI dishum dishum
    ______________________________________
    Knockout sirji, what an uppercut that was. And Ravi made limp statement and slithered away. Ravi bhai in India cedibilty is imp, its like your pagri. You loose credibilty, you loose your good name.
    Blog has gone away from focus, we are not talking lokpal here, lets get back to Pakistan. In Pakistan comunity here in UK, rumour is strong that Pervez is going to join hands with Imran and army and is definitely going to return this year. When ?
    Fact, if you go to Ilford in east London most taxi drivers are pakistani. They actually showed me a new building being constructed by Nawaz Sharif, benaami of course, which costs 50 million pounds. Imagine whole Pakistani quom here knows it. Pakistan needs Baba ramdev to raise issue of black money

    Pervez, pl u answer, we r curious to know abt the sermons you heard in mosque. Which mosque, who spoke, bukhari?, also are there any disenting voices who argue against this ummah ****, what they say on kashmir. Blog is respectfully curious

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Pakistan needs Baba ramdev to raise issue of black money

    ramdev is himself far richer than any pakistani politician.he is worth 11000crores.from where he earned this wealth.he is under scanning.
    pakistani politicians too are swimming in corruption.doodh ke dhule nahin hain.ramdev closest man was having fake certificates.he was cheating poors with these certificates.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    अन्ना हजारे बाबा रामदेव को ईमानदारी का सर्टिफिकेट दे रहे हैं, जबकि प्रवर्तन निदेशालय ने उनके विरुद्ध नोटिस जारी कर रखा है और सीबीआई की जांच चल रही है।

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    RIZWAN vs RAVI dishum dishum,

    ravi is ur age.u also awnsered him in same language.attacking him in so bad language is not part of our or your culture.he is too young to speak like this.it is ur duty to correct him.we come to xchange ideas not start war on each other.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder ji

    The intention of my blogging here is to fight a certain mindset and not so much about individuals. We all know who leads the prayers but it is not about him as an individual or the Mushawarti council which is an advisory board.

    it is about the direction some Muslim youth end up taking. I think if peer pressure and guidance from elders sets them on to a path of of liberal thought and national issues, it would be a huge victory for them and of course for the country.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    why should I and why would I

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @RajeevS, Your quest ends tonight.You asked why 75% bengalis converted to islam. Well during partition 1941, Hindus were 54% ,muslims 46%.
    A caveat ,these are all speculation ,however this one is most appealing
    “That explanation is that this region, along with large parts of the rest of India and places as far west and north as modern-day Afghanistan and Xinjiang, had become entirely Buddhist, and by the sixth century or so this Buddhism had also become adulterated with diverse forms of animism, occult practices, promiscuity, and the like, something in the nature of what is known in Hinduism as vamachara, and had degenerated into a loose faith
    he population therefore remained Buddhist-Animist, and easily converted to Islam when the marauders from the west came to Bengal. Extensive ruins of Buddhist monasteries are found at Paharpur and Mahasthangarh in the northern parts of
    present-day Bangladesh. The Buddhist priest Dipankar Srigyan had set out from a village called Bajrajogini near Dacca to convert the whole of Tibet to Buddhism. Till today Hindu Bengalis, when they choose to be abusive, refer to Muslims by the term Neray (a diminutive of Naraa, meaning shaven-headed). And a lot of Bengali Muslims do tonsure their heads, which is believed to be a custom inherited by them from the Buddhist viharas (monasteries) which their ancestors atttended. All these bear eloquent testimony to the hold of Buddhism in East Bengal.

    Assam, on the other hand, remained Hindu and did not convert to Islam because of the preachings of the great Vaishnavite guru Shankara Deva (not the same as the sage of the same name from Kerala) who gave a firm faith within the Hindu fold to the Assamese. In fact the Ahoms, who came from Thailand to settle in and rule Upper Assam, embraced Hinduism and remained Hindu.

    The Muslims of East Bengal are therefore, in all probability, converts mostly from Buddhism-Animism and not from Hinduism. This view is also held by the eminent historian Vincent Smith, among others. The argument finds great support from the fact that Buddhism has yielded elsewhere, as it did in East Bengal, much more easily to Islam than Sanatan (Orthodox) Hinduism. Thus once-Buddhist Afghanistan and Xinjiang eventually became totally Muslim, while Hindu India did not. Similarly, Buddhist East Bengal became Muslim-majority,
    According to much abused Nirad Choudhari , muslims in East bengal were overwhelmingly peasants and are anthropologically different from hindus , HAILED FROM THAILAND. Again ties neatly with the above theory of Buddhism to quick to giveway to islam, the McDonald of religion in mass appeal

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    DR Shan-

    Seems logical.. However, Bengal was under Muslim rulers for a long time – like Ziraj Dawla etc..Also wasntthere an issue with tax collection, that the real poor could not afford the tax and converted to islam to avoid the religious tax imposed by Muslim rulers?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    a jansanghi views based on lies.shan is right.tax was imposed by aurangzeb,rajput brhmns and muslims were exempted.reasons was empire was fighting on many fronts which required money.

    INDONESIA WAS NEVER ERULED BY MUSLIMS.ENTIRE POPULATION CONVERTED.REASON,

    ISLAM STANDS FOR EQUALITY AND INTEREST FREE ECONOMIC SYSTEM.
    hindu is not converted hindu is born remaining are slaves.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think Indonesia was very democratic and held a referendum in which the people en masse decided to become peace loving Muslims.

    Anonymous Reply:

    This brings us to the questions most of us have avoided asking: Were Bengalis spineless? Were they, as a mass, easy prey to the merauding Muslims? Were Bengalis, at least most of them, lazy, couldn’t farm well and opted to remain poor? Have these traits remained a permanent feature of “Bengalis”?

    I hope these questions will wake up our sleeping partner Ashish and bring him back to the blog.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    shan good research.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    It took you long time to unearth this truth but you are on mark. The most of the muslims today in Northwest India (Afghanistan & Pakistan) are decendents of buddhists who just rolled over when muslims attacked their land and converted because of their cowardice. I was trying to point out that most of the Bengalis (no matter which origin) converted because they were cowards. Same is true for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Many hindus especially punjabis (70% punjabis are muslims) and rajput converted because of opportunistic mindset. I laugh at Rajputs when they talk of valour etc. because they are the only one who gave their daughters and sisters WILLINGLY to muslims.

    The people who stand out are Oriya who remained loyal to their religion. The way they opposed Ashoka the chandal, they opposed muslims too.

    Thanks..finally we are on same page.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Same is true for Afghanistan

    no invader in history could conquer afghanistan and iraq for long period .

    root of islam is very strong in these countries as they converted after hearing the great humanely princole of islam.american brought 4 plane load of pastors. when they attack their armies were led by pastors with guns in their hand not bible.bush declared this war as crusade.could win only ONE from afghanistan.
    in india muslim rulers tried to develop india,that is while our economy reached 25%of world gdp.they never tried to convert the people.those who came in contact with sufis got themselve liberted from brhmncl slavery.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan Sir,

    Very nicely and coherently told. Though I thought Afganisthan was more of a transit route. So it always got influenced by Buddhists from India, persian and even chinese. Infact buddhism got influence of persian ideas through Afganisthan. So I am not sure about the conversion by fear story in Afganisthan. Infact even Alexander left the Greek mark and Arabs influenced the region. Finally, Genghis Khan had his way.

    Or, shall we say Western powers are still fighting in Afganisthan for a clear access to India ! Nothing has changed over the centuries. India is still a dream lure !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    you have, very wisely used the word coherence to describe Shan’s above post.

    In fact, coherence is what distinguishes his this post from his most other posts.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    western powers are there to corner china.people of afghanistan converted after hearing about islam.even missionaries have not h]gone there.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,
    “Or, shall we say Western powers are still fighting in Afganisthan for a clear access to India ! Nothing has changed over the centuries. India is still a dream lure ! ”
    why would you say so ?
    p.s. : If you respond please avoid referring me as sir.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh Sir,

    [ Pl allow me be me ]

    The future is in this region -( indo – china ). Staying close proximity to the action zone is every strategist’s long term plan. The military power ( off shoot of the economic power ) is set to rise in this zone. The influence of India and China will grow exponentially. India and China are perceived both as opportunities as well as threat. So having close presence makes sense. It’s like staying close to CPM and TMC for UPA and DMK & AIIDMK for NDA. Stay close, then treat them as friend or foe ( reversible ) as the situation demands.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @PralhadSir, You have a very perceptive mind. What you describe is also known as THE GREAT GAME.
    This Arab Spring business is also a not too covert ploy by the WHITE FOLKS(i like the term , more tham West) to have aa free hold on OIL. I will elaborate tonight. Will also have something to say about Afganistan, after having seen the Afganistan , The Crossroads of civilization exhibition in british museum last year

  • Anonymous

    Enrich keeps parroting positive points of Islam and keeps slamming hinduism on many aspects. He is right of some of those things.

    What I like about Islam-
    1. Institutionalized Charity
    2. Equality before God
    3. Discipline
    4. Love for Islam and Prophet

    What I hate about hinduism-
    1. No concept of charity..whatever is there it is only for bloodsucking Brahmins.
    2. There is no equality
    3. No discipline
    4. No love for religion. To appease other they are ready to badmouth their own religion.

    However I choose Hinduism over Islam any day because Hinduism provides flexibility to change. This is what matter. It is a dynamic religion which will never go down even after 33 crores devi devtas are discredited. Unlike Islam it is not based on personality. If Mohammad is discredited, Islam is finished..same is true for christianity but Dharmic religions will survive solely on the power of evolving ideology.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    However I choose Hinduism over Islam any day because Hinduism provides flexibility to change

    hinduism is samaj not religion.muslims are removed from this samaj to ignite intercommunity war.this game was played by atheist savarkar.who never said that he is hindu.like brhmns never go to ganga snan,but send others to make money to spoil our water resources.they are foreigner so UNKA KYA JATA HAI.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    If Mohammad is discredited, Islam is finished..same is true for christianity but Dharmic religions

    that is why penguine paid 5 million pound to salman rushdie to write satanic verses.but STRENGHT IS IN MESSAGE NOT PROPHET(PBUH).he was only messange.yeh bhagwan aur shiatan ke ladai hai.at the end it is war between interest free economy and interest economy.sood khor mahajan aur uske victim kee ladai hai.kanhya lal aur manoj kumar kee ladai hai.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Shan,

    I find Islam, spread of Islam a very interesting topic, though an extremely tragic one. There is a view that can 1.5 billion people be wrong. Looking at so many historical situations which we have knowledge of, the most recent being rise of Hitler and behavior of educated and cultured Germans of that time,looking at Islamic history from Mohammed to this date and spread from Spain to Indonesia, we can make our deductions clearly. Infact, even 7 billion people can be wrong.

    You seem to be right on conversion in Bengal. Infact what I had indicated in my earlier posts, caste system is not responsible for spread of Islam. On the contrary, in a very interesting way, it has been responsible for slowing down spread of Islam. We are time and again bombarded with statements that lower castes converted to Islam because of Islamic equality. But it seems to be a MYTH. The lowest among Hindu caste which are now covered under “Schedule Castes” compose an extremely miniscule portion of Muslims. This has been documented after proper studies.. It was so called Shudra castes who fought tooth and nail with islamic invaders and rulers . Brahmins were not much in physical fighting, Kshatriyas had been smothered and many of them were killed or forced to convert along with their fighting forces , Vaishyas mostly continued with their farming, arts and trade , they were mostly left alone as muslim rulers needed their services to run their empires ( ultimately countries run on Vaishya work ). It was these so called Shudra castes which fought . Starting with killing of Mohamad Gauri, resistance of Jats, Gujjars, Reddys , Marathas. Infact in Andhra , there are inscriptions by Reddy rulers who have with pride declared themselves born from feet of Brahma and fighting with Malechas ( Muslims ) to protect Dharma. ( This brings us to an interesting question, was” Born from feet of Brahma” considered derogatory by so called shudra castes when these Reddy kings were proclaiming it with so much pride ).

    Dear RajeevS,

    What you like about Islam is what you will find in all SECTS. And Islam is the biggest and most powerful Sect.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Starting with killing of Mohamad Gauri, resistance of Jats, Gujjars, Reddys , Marathas. Infact in Andhra

    they were fighting for their empire not for dharma.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke, Rajeev,

    Any religion which cannot take criticism in a constructive way is not worthy
    of respect, whether it is Hinduism, Islam, Christainity, Sikhism or any other.
    Religions should be strong enough to withstand any type of attack.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Nothing wrong with the religions, per se. It is the ’self-appointed guardians’ aka ‘loonies’ aka intolerant bigots that are unable to take criticism (they are found in all the religions) and attempt to have their ‘way’ by threatening/resorting to violence and vandalism.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Only difference is tht people are bieng killed regularly if
    a particular religion is criticized.

    Anonymous Reply:

    No. All religions are in the dock, rather their self-appointed intolerant protagonists. People get killed for criticism or for real and perceived wrongs. Need examples? I do not think so, you very well know what I am talking about.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Last year a pastor burnt a Quran in US and in reply few Europeans were killed in
    Afghanistan.

  • Anonymous

    Early morning activism by HT staff :

    The so called moderator at HT seems to get have a sprint every morning, though for a short period. And definitely a BJP sympathisor. My simple posting gets deleted ! It happened before also. Just because it had the keyword BJP !

    [ I know it will not be deleted if it is posted after 6 pm. Or even 2 hours later. The so called moderator would be over with his duty by then.]

    Vijay Sir and Shenoy Sir,

    Something for you to enjoy with your morning breakfast. Some food for thought.

    BJP will not allow Rushdie.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/audio-news-video/AV-NewsX/Won-t-allow-Rushdie-in-India-BJP/Article2-796011.aspx

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Really funny…Congressi troll complaining about pro-Congress HT…Nautanki lagi hai kya

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The big question how can Indian government refuse permission to PIOs? Has committed any ‘crime’?

    Wot? BJP also in the business of appeasing loony elements, a la Congress?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    It is election time. We will keep on hearing more shit like this.
    The problem is and perhaps it is true also that political parties
    think that these ’silly’ things will get them votes.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Prahlad,

    Believe me, you have my sympathy. Here are some tips for the safe passage of your early morning posts and for avoiding early morning ****-ups.

    Include, in your posts some mention about Hindu communalism.

    Also mention 5000 or so daily rapes of dalit women by upper caste Hindus in India. Quote the BBC or the Vatican for proof.

    NEVER EVER MENTION A SINGLE WORD ABOUT ANY FAKE CD ON THE BHUSHANS. Not only your early morning posts, but even late evening posts are sure to be deleted.

    But, apart from the fake CD, you can, space permitting, mention about how Anna is a fake Gandhian, or how Sonia Gandhi is not a Ghandy etc.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Thank you for kind and elaborate advice. Looks like I have to make a real long post ( as per pointers given by you) if I have to survive this stealth, faceless technician “early morning”.

    If you remember you were once surprised that my post was deleted. You said I never abused anybody yet my message was moderated.That was early morning post. And it had happened during early office hour. It hardly had any derogatory reference but yes there was a reference to BJP. I knew the reason instantly. But I was looking for a pattern. Today it happened few times after posting the same message constantly. Probably the the last message survived because I talked about it and there was a quick reply on my last post.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    As the Americans say, “shit happens”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    All the more reason for you not to get up early. Enjoy your sweet sleep till early afternoon.

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    shan and ravi bhai this is the history of muslims in assam,

    Scope: Assam is the second largest Muslim populated state of India (in terms of percentage) only after Jammu and Kashmir. Muslims constitute about thirty percent of the state population[1]. They are historically concentrated in the south and west Assam in large numbers. Five of the six Muslims majority districts of Assam lie in these regions and also the other districts in these regions have significant percentage of Muslims[2]. Interestingly in Assam it is found that, wherever Muslim political structure once developed, has high percentage of Muslims living there. Besides, the southern and western region, central Assam (mainly in the districts of Nagaon and Marigaon) has significant Muslim populations. Presently the state has almost eighty lakhs Muslim population. History of the origin of this huge numbers of inhabitants does not represent one single period. Almost a quarter of their Islamic origin belongs to 13th to 15th century A.D., which is the timing of my study on Muslims Socio-Political History.

    Since last three-four decades Muslims of Assamhave been इन the center stage of many movements and violence in the state. The allegations and counter allegations not only draw the attention of national media, politicians, and the masses but also the international media and organizations[3]. They are marginalized in every possible way. They are looked merely as invaders and intruders in history and now suspected as immigrants. This twist and criticism, however, in turn led the curiosity of some writers and historians to explore the Muslim history in the state and their relation with power. But unfortunately most of the works carried out by them are neither comprehensive nor insightful. Their writings unveiled a small part of Muslims total history in Assam. For instance, some one may writes on Assam or specifically on Muslims, but they would either forget or ignore regions other then Brahmputra valley. So their studies are confined to Brahmputra valley only, for that matter Barak valley received scant attention[4]. It became a fact that so far nobody has made any such move on any specific period to explore the history of Muslims of Assam in true sense. A systematic study from 13th century, which is the starting point of their history, is crucial in the construction of both Brahmputra valley and Barak valley’s Muslim history.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    continued…
    Assam is in the center of Northeast India. It is surrounded on the north by Bhutan and Arunachal Pradesh, on the east by Arunachal, Nagaland, Manipur, on the south Mizoram, Tripura, and on the west lays Bangladesh, Meghalaya, and West Bengal. Except its border with west Bengal and Bangladesh from all other sides, Assam is bounded by hills. The state is physically divided into three parts:

    I. Brahmaputra Valley named after the river Brahmaputra, which flows from the east to the west in the northern part of Assam.

    II.Barak Valley identified by the name of the river Barak that flows from east to the west in south Assam.

    III. Hilly region comprising two hilly districts of Borail Range and Karbi Anglong Hills in the middle of Assam.

    Borail Range and Khasi-Jaintia hills separate Barak and Brahmaputra Valley. This hilly barrier makes geographical oneness of both valleys almost in accessible. So are the cultures and histories of the people of two valleys. That is why, in this study the Socio-Political history of two valleys discussed separately. There are very few instances of uniformity existed between these valleys during medieval period also.
    The history of Assam went through various phases of formation and fragmentation before to take the shape of modern one. Modern Assam is a creation of British colonialism[8]. In 1874, Assam was created as colonial province under a chief commissioner for an inexpensive and effective administration[9]. Consideration of historical continuity or cultural contiguity was not in the mind of British imperialist. The territories that formed the new province are:

    I. Mughal territories of Bengal Subah comprising lower parts have Brahmaputra valley (West Assam) and Barak valley (South Assam)[10].

    II. The territory of Ahom Kingdom comprising upper portion of Brahmaputra Valley (central and eastern part of modern Assam)[11].

    III.Territories of Dimacha-Kachari Kingdom comprising two hilly districts and a portion of Barak valley[12].

    IV. Some other small Kingdoms Domaria, Darang Etc[13].

    That is why the history of contemporary Assam is not synonymous with the history of Ahom Kingdom or the area that came to be referred as Assam, after British colonization as well as in the post independent period[14]. During colonial period, British annexed hilly states like Nagaland, Meghalaya, and Mizoram etc. into Assam. But after independence except the present territory of Assam, which is under study, all other places gradually parted away as separate states while major portion of Syllhet went to East Pakistan (present Bangladesh). Since Brahmaputra Valley constitutes the two third territory of present Assam; In general its past is what history designates of Assam today to the most modern historians.

    During ancient and medieval period Brahmaputra Valley is known by different names in the Epic, Puranic and early historical literature. It is mentioned as Pragjyotisha in both the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. Pragjyotisha included not only the whole of Brahmaputra Valley and parts of North and East Bengal but also the hilly tracts up to the border of China. It is known for the first time as Kamrup in Allahabad pillar inscription of Samudra Gupta and in the Early Puranas. The boundaries of Pragjyotisha or Kamrup did not remain static, underwent changes in different age for political and other reasons[15]. After the expedition of Bakhtiyar Khilji in 1226 A.D., the big state of Pragjyotisha-Kamrupa collapsed. There emerged small states. The remnants of Kamrupa named as Kamata. It was in 15th century Thai Ahoms, belong to the Shan stock in South East Asia, who had ruled Upper Brahmaputra Valley from 13th to early 18th century, able to unite large tracts of Kamrup into one identity. The western limit receded from the river Karatoya to the river Manas. The river Manas was western frontier not all times, only during the high times of Ahoms[16].

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    The territory of Ahoms is called Asham in Ain-e-Akbari and Asam in Padshahnaamaa. The same word is applied by, Francis Hamilton in his account on Assam compiled during 1807-8. Assam is apparently the English form of Asam. Again, there are differences of opinion among historians on the origin of the word Asham. According to one group of historian Mughal called Brahmputra Valley in the name Asham, as the land is uneven or peerless and in Sanskrit Asham means uneven. The second opinion is that Asham originated from the word Tai-Ahom, the ruling dynasty of mainly upper Assam[17]. Shihabuddin Talish the noted historian of the Mughal governor of Bangla subah Mirjumla, in his account Fatihat I Ibriyat referred Asham as, the territory beyond Hajo and Kamrup Sarkar of Mughal Empire. So the term originally been applied to the tract of the country ruled by the Ahom, subsequently used to refer the area under the control of Assam[18].

    The upper portion of Barak valley is known as Kachar. According to local dialect Sylheti Bangla, Kachar means a stretch of land on the foot of mountains. While the lower portion of the valley comprises undivided Sylhet district which included present Karimganj district of Assam. The picturesque valley of Barak is the natural extension of vast Bengal plain. According to Nihar Ranjan Roy, author of Bangalir Ithihas, Barak and Surma valley is the extension of Meghana valley. There is no natural boundary between these two valleys. That is why the society and culture of East Maimansingh, Plain Tripura is well tied with Sylhet and Kachar that there is no difference exist between the two[19]. It was included in various Kingdoms that had emerged during prehistoric and early historic period like Gauda, Samatata and with the Aryanisation it include as Pratyant. During 6th and 7th century this land became part of Kamrup and later in early medieval period an independent state of Harikala emerged

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Like other parts of Bengal Austric people are the first to settle in the valley of Barak. The next group of people migrated to valley are Indo-Mongoloid Bodos, who gradually mixed with Austric people. Khasis are considered to be the descended of Austric speaking people but physically looked more as Mongoloid[21]. Aryans are the third group of people settled around 6th and 7th century A.D. As the valley of Barak is extension of Meghna valley, Aryans moved to this place from East Bengal. It was the fertility of soil which, attracted large number of Aryans, most of them were Brahmins. This is the way, the influence of the language of Aryan spread to the greater Sylhet and Kachar[22]. Historian P.C.Choudhury opined that Srihatta is one of the last of the last Buddhist center in India. Mr. Choudhury writes details on Srihatta in his history of Assam. However, in this study, Sylhet is also used in reference with the present territory of Assam, for its historical continuity with, modern Karimganj district of Assam[23].

    The geography has to do a lot with the history and culture of a place. It played a great role in shaping the destiny of people and their history. Assam surrounded by mountain barriers from three sides. The land of Assam connected with rest of the world through many routes such as Patkai route, which was use by Ahoms and other Tibet-Burman tribes of the North East. The hilly passes of Bhutan, Tibet and Nepal were also probably used by certain waves of the Tibet-Burman tribes’ movement. The landed western boundary of both Brahmputra valley and Barak Valley are, with Bengal. These two land borders were two important routes, through which the Aryan migration from North India took place. Actually, all migrations and invasions, from Gangetic valley or North India had occurred through those two routes, including that of Turkish, Afghans, and Mughals during medieval period.

    People: Assam is described as the land of anthropological Museum for its diverse ethnology. Population of Assam is composed of various races and tribes. The ancestor of these tribes and races migrated to Assam in different period of times. Details have been briefly mentioned earlier. Khasis of Austric origins were the first to settle in Assam. Subsequently Bodos of Mongoloid origin established in different regions, and gradually, became divided in to various groups, identified as Rabha, Bodos, Tiwa, Karbi and Dimasa etc. The northern Assam’s tribes Miri, Mishing, Daflas also entered Assam in the same period that of Bodos but remained concentrated on the northern bank of Brahmputra in the north east corner of Brahmaputra valley, bordering Arunachal Pradesh. The original term Bodo denote a large number of peoples-Garo, Rabha, Koch, Mech, Hajong, and Lalung etc, who speak Bodo languages. Not a very distant past the Bodos proved themselves to be very powerful occupying almost the entire Brahmputra valley. The other tribes Kakis, Nagas and Mar entered the hilly regions of central Assam at the same time of Bodo’s, through the Burma-Manipur route. Jaintia is another tribe that settled at the same period, in some areas of Barak valley. Indo-Aryans moved to Assam from Northern India by 6th and 7th century. Those groups of Aryans settled in different pockets of Brahmaputra and Barak valley. Brahmins of Srihatta are the first Aryan settlers and Kalitas of Brahmputra valley, who claimed to be Aryan origin

    engrich Reply:

    The Muslim of Turkish, Afghani and other origin, came from North India to enter Assam during medieval period, for different reasons, a brief of that has already been given. Besides, a large number of newly converted Muslims of Bengal settled down in different areas of Assam. The other group of peoples who entered Assam followed by the Muslim was Tai Ahoms[25]. Initially, they settled in upper Assam but gradually moved further west up to the Central Assam. Both of these two groups of people Muslims and Ahoms migrated to Assam from two opposite direction, Muslims from the west and Ahoms from the East of Assam.
    Language: Assam is a land of languages and dialects, as many as forty-five languages spoken by its communities. It is a mini India in terms of language. There are many ethnic groups, each have their own language, culture and tradition and of course very distinct customs. From a small tribe of four to five thousands Mech, to Bengali the largest ethnic group, every one have their language, culture and dialects. At present Assamese and Bengali are two principle languages of Assam. Assamese is the official language of Brahmputra valley and it is the common language of same valley. People of different languages, dialects used Assamese as the medium of communication with others in Brahmputra valley; many even officially accepted it as their mother tongue. Ahom having their own tribal dialect now speak and used Assamese as their mother tongue. Similarly Muslims of Bengali origin officially used Assamese as their mother tongue; though in their homes speak different Bengali dialects[26]. The reason of Bengali Muslim accepting Assmese is largely because of political compulsion and security[27].

    Assamese is a language of Sanskrit origin directly connected with proper Magadhi Apabramsha. Cultural fusion among various tribes and races among themselves has shaped the development of this language for centuries. That is why influences of Austro-Asiatic, Mongoloid and Tibet-Burman dialects are palpable in Assamese language. During medieval period Arabic, Persian played important role in the development of Assamese language[28]. Bengali the official language of Barak valley is also the common language of Barak and acted as medium of communication among various linguistic groups. Eighty percent of the people of Barak valley have Bengali as their mother language. Hindi speaking tea garden labours, Bishnupria Manipuri speaking peoples, Khasia and all other small groups of valley use Bengali in common interaction. However majority of Bengali speak a dialect known as Sylheti Bangla[29]. Bodo is third popular language of Assam and second in Brahmputra valley. The total number of Bodo is much larger then the Bodo speakers. The number of Bodo speaker is increasing. More and more Bodos now, officially adopting Bodos as their mother tongue[30]. English is use in two hilly districts. Hindi and Bodo are the two other popular languages of the state. Besides language having significant number of speakers are Rabha, Santhali, Nepali, Mishing, Manipuri, Garo, Rabha, Dimasa, and Bisnupria etc. Many of these languages have neither own script nor written form. People of Assam also used language and dialects like Ahom, Koch Rajbanshi, and Lalung.

    Historically both Assames and Bengali developed out of Sanskrit language as early as in the 7th century A.D. Their direct ancestor is Magadhi Apabramsha. Maghadi was the principle dialect, which correspondents to the Eastern Prakrit. East Magadhi was spoken prachya Apabramsha also spread to the east keeping north of the Ganges and reached to the Assam. Each of the descendents of Magadhi Apabrahmsa viz, Oriya, modern Bengali and Assamese equally connected with the common immediate parents. S.R.Chattarjee classified Eastern Apabramsha in to four dialect groups as (1) Radha dialects which comprehend West Bengal, gives literary Bengali, colloquial and origin in the South-West (2) Varendra dialects of North Central Bengal (3) Vanga dialects comprehends the dialects of Eastern Bengal and (4) Kamrup dialects which comprehend Assamese and the dialects of North Bengal.[31]

    Sources: Sources played most important role in the writing of history of a place, community etc. The richness in sources means writing is easier, more details and perfect. Though incase of my study, source materials are not ample, but did found almost all sorts of materials primary and secondary. Writers on ancient Assam relate various aspects of Bengal with the society and polity of Assam in making the comprehensive history of latter. Both primary and secondary sources are used in this study. However, the less number of primary sources made more depended on secondary sources. Inscriptions and archeological remains, found at different places of Karimganj and rest of Assam can be counted in primary Sources. Secondary sources are large number of books and articles published in different languages by medieval and modern writers. Language of these books and articles are mainly Persian, English, Bengali and Assamese. Some of those books written on a particular region or particular aspect of Muslims in Assam can be considered as an initiative, to put forward the so far unnoticed sides of Muslims life and history. Writers on ancient Assam relate various aspects of Bengal with the society and polity of Assam in making the comprehensive history of latter. As S.Chatterjee a historian on Assam history describes Assam is a sister state of Bengal. That is why the reference of Bengal is imperative in the history of medieval Assam too. Rafiul Hussain Barua’s Islami Oitijya Aaru Asham and Mohini Saikia’s Assam-Muslim Relation and Its Cultural Significance are two books devoted on Assam’s Muslim history. But these books lack lot of information and proper analytical point of view. Their woks are mainly political narratives and they do not try much to explore more beyond the Brahmputra valley. On the other hand mainstream books on Assam history merely depicted Muslims as invaders, foreigners while largely ignoring the fact that Muslims contributed a lot to society, culture and economy of Assam. Most of these authors did not even try to incorporate the rich history and heritage of the Muslim of Barak Valley, where Muslims have been an important political and social force since 14th century.

    Muslims Relation: Islam starts its journey in India almost from 8th century A.D[32]. Merchants, Sufis and political adventurers basically made it to spread Islam throughout India. Sufis can be called the torchbearers of Islam in India. Moinuddin Chisti, the famous Indian Sufi settled at Ajmer by the end of eleventh century[33]. The Arab merchants, however, brought Islam to the coast of Kerala in 7th century, and by that time a large Muslim society got developed in Malabar[34]. Similarly the Arab and Persian merchants visited coastal areas of Bengal, places like Chittagong much before the political conquest of northern India by the Turks. According to historians, during pre Turkish period, Sufis and merchants had entered Bengal in many occasions for preaching and trading purposes. Persian and Arab merchants even established important colonies in the contemporary towns of Bengal for commercial and maritime contact much before its conquest by the Muslim forces of Turkish origin (1205-6 A.D)[35]. History of Bengal is important for writing a history of Assam because Bengal and Assam being two land bordering states influenced each other’s society and polity for a long period of times. During many times the frontiers of Assam extended into Bengal, similarly the frontier of Bengal penetrated into Assam. Kamrup the old name of Assam was not unknown to Arabs. We find references of the word Kamrud in various accounts of Arab geographers and writers, which discussed trade relationship of Arab with Kamrud. Arab geographer Al Idris mentioned about the import of aloe wood from Kamrud.[36] The word Kamrud is the arabisation of the name Kamrup. The trade relationship of Arabs, tends to believe that Arab Muslims while trading with the coastal Bengal might visited Assam, as latter was well-known to them. We know from Minhajuddin, author of Tabaqat e Nasiri that Muslim traders were frequent to Navadip, the capital of Bengal. So, the people of Lucknawti misunderstood Bakhtiyar Khilji and his small number of soldiers, as Arab horse traders because Arab horse traders were regular to Bengal[37]. Similarly we find evidences of Muslim settlements in Sylhet, which was also known as Khanda Kamrupa before its political conquest by Muslims (1303). It is not confirmed whether those

    engrich Reply:

    Muslims belong to the merchant class or general. Burhanuddin was a Muslim from that community, his story with Gaur Govinda, the local ruler of Sylhet known to all[38]. Infact, the killing of Burhanuddin’s son is considered an immediate cause of Muslim political interference in Sylhet. The story is largely represented in every book written on Shahjalal and the history of region. Both traditions and literature are the sources of these events. However, for us it pointed Muslim presense in Barak valley even before its conquest by the later. It was a brief introduction of Muslim relationship with Assam in pre Turkish Bengal and Assam.

    Formal history of the Muslim Socio-Political life in Brahmaputra valley begins in 1206 A.D. it was in this year, as per the records of history, Assam first witnessed the arrival of Muslims. It was when Turkish military commandant Ikhtiyaruddin Mohammad Bakhtiyar Khilji (1201-06) – the first Muslim ruler of Bengal entered Kamrup – was on his way to Tibet expedition[39]. Thus the beginning of 13th century is a landmark in the history of Assam in general and Muslims in particular. The Muslim Socio-Political life actually started taking off from that time. Bakhtiyar Khilji’s (1201-06) Tibet campaign through Kamrup and his disastrous retreat left many of his soldier’s prisoners in the hands of hostile Kamrup forces. When local king freed these soldiers, they adopted the land of Assam as their home. Ali Mech, a tribal chief of Mech tribe embraced Islam and became a trusted guide of Bakhtiyar Khilji during this campaign[40]. Many of his fellow tribes might accept Islam at that time. We found Koch and Mech came forward to rescue Khilji and his soldiers. Bakhtiyar Khilji might get defeated at a sudden attack but this campaign brought West Assam under the Muslim rule of Bengal. Since after Khilji’s Tibet expedition, the Turkish and Afghan rulers of Bengal led a series of invasions in Assam to further their territorial limits and to repel the revolts against the authority of Lakhnawati in West Assam[41]. During this political interference in Brahmputra valley, Sufis and new group of Muslim ruling class entered Assam and established Muslim settlement in different places. They gradually developed a new society and culture, which by and large contributed many new things to Assamese society and local languages[42]. During those successive wars of medieval period, many Muslim soldiers of Turk, Afghan and Muslims of other origins settled in Brahmputra valley. Some of them were war prisoner, while rest might voluntarily settle down in valley. It was obvious that with the expansion of Turkish rule in lower Brahmputra valley, Muslim officials were appointed in different parts of newly controlled areas. Many of them might choose to remain in Assam. There were Muslim artisans, traders, etc. settled across Ahom territories at the invitation of Ahom Kings[43].

    A formal history of the Muslim in Barak valley begins after the conquest of Sylhet by Sikandar Khan Ghazi in 1303 A.D. However, the evidence of Muslim settlements this date is testified by the presence of Burhanuddin in Sylhet. But the process of Muslim settlements got intensified, just after the political conquest of Sylhet by the Sikandar Khan Ghazi, nephew of Sultan Shamsuddin Ferozshah (1301-22), the sultan of Bengal[44]. The great Sufi saint Hazrat Shahjalal Mujrrad accompanied Muslim forces and acted as a strong spiritual guide who also advised warfare. With this conquest a large number of Muslims belong to different origins like Turkish, Afghan, and Arabic settled in the valley, besides Muslims from other parts of Bengal and northern India also settled down in the undivided Barak valley[45]. This process of settlement from the outside of valley continued while at the same time many locals belong to Hinduism and tribal faiths embraced Islam. So the political conquest of Sylhet led the expansion Muslim rule in South Assam. Even during 18th century, the Raja of Dimasa-Kachari Kingdom encouraged Muslim peasants, soldiers and traders from lower Barak valley and Bengal to migrate to his territory i.e. Cachar[46].

    The final wave of the Muslim settlement took place during late 19th and early 20th century. To enhance income from revenue, British brought thousands of peasants from East Bengal districts of Dhaka, Maimansing, Rangpur, etc. who cleared low alluvial forest in Brahmaputra valley and made Assam economically sound for British. These peasants came to form about one tenth to one sixth of the population of Assam by 1951.[47] .In the early 19th century, thousands of people from districts of Sylhet and Cachar (Barak valley) of colonial Assam shifted to undivided Nagaon district in Brahmaputra valley. Majority of these people were Muslims. At the same time British planters brought thousands of tea garden labourers from U.P., Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa and Andra Pradesh, etc. to both of the valleys of Assam[48]. These people later on became permanent residents of Assam; almost all of them were Hindu by faith, however, some of them belong to Muslim community also.

    The objective of my study is to give an idea of the Socio-Political History of Muslims belongs to a period from 13th to 15th century. It is large work and covered varied topics and sites of the Muslim of that period. It is already mentioned that the valley of Brahmputra and Barak are quite different to each other and so that its history. My study covers the Muslims socio-political history of 13th and 14th century in Brahmputra valley while in Barak valley 14th and 15th century. As we know Muslim as a political force, emerged in the valley of Brahmputra by 1206 A.D., and in valley of Barak, almost one hundreds year after, during 1303 A.D.

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev i also recommend u read it.though long but very informative.

  • engrich

    ravi and shanjee u will appreciare following,

    Scope: Assam is the second largest Muslim populated state of India (in terms of percentage) only after Jammu and Kashmir. Muslims constitute about thirty percent of the state population[1]. They are historically concentrated in the south and west Assam in large numbers. Five of the six Muslims majority districts of Assam lie in these regions and also the other districts in these regions have significant percentage of Muslims[2]. Interestingly in Assam it is found that, wherever Muslim political structure once developed, has high percentage of Muslims living there. Besides, the southern and western region, central Assam (mainly in the districts of Nagaon and Marigaon) has significant Muslim populations. Presently the state has almost eighty lakhs Muslim population. History of the origin of this huge numbers of inhabitants does not represent one single period. Almost a quarter of their Islamic origin belongs to 13th to 15th century A.D., which is the timing of my study on Muslims Socio-Political History.

    Since last three-four decades Muslims of Assamhave been इन the center stage of many movements and violence in the state. The allegations and counter allegations not only draw the attention of national media, politicians, and the masses but also the international media and organizations[3]. They are marginalized in every possible way. They are looked merely as invaders and intruders in history and now suspected as immigrants. This twist and criticism, however, in turn led the curiosity of some writers and historians to explore the Muslim history in the state and their relation with power. But unfortunately most of the works carried out by them are neither comprehensive nor insightful. Their writings unveiled a small part of Muslims total history in Assam. For instance, some one may writes on Assam or specifically on Muslims, but they would either forget or ignore regions other then Brahmputra valley. So their studies are confined to Brahmputra valley only, for that matter Barak valley received scant attention[4]. It became a fact that so far nobody has made any such move on any specific period to explore the history of Muslims of Assam in true sense. A systematic study from 13th century, which is the starting point of their history, is crucial in the construction of both Brahmputra valley and Barak valley’s Muslim history.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    continued…..

    The history of the Muslims of Assam is important for a comprehensive history of Assam. In fact, the way history of our country is incomplete without the reference of Assam. A history of Assam is also incomplete without the reference of Muslims history. In Assam, Muslim community is heterogeneous in character. Unlike other religious groups of the state, they are also divided culturally, ethnically and linguistically[5]. A systematic study of these different groups, in the light of various sources and conditions is necessary, for the sake of a comprehensive history of state and Muslims in particular. Actually historical processes of conversion in to Islam, settlement of Muslims from outside and the geographical variance of the state paved their division. It is a fact, neither at single point of time Muslims had entered Assam, nor the locals belong to Hinduism and tribal faith embraced Islam at a time. Muslims arrived and settled in different places at different stages of history. Similarly the conversions to Islam occurred at various point of times. The newly settled Muslims (13th to 15th A.D.) of Turk, Afghan, Arabic, Persian and other backgrounds, mingling with the newly converted Muslims, and Non Muslims paved the way for the enhancement of language, Polity, economy and society of Assam. Thus local languages and dialects became filled with new words used by the adventurer. Both Assamese and Bengali languages are fraught with Arabic and Persian words. So Muslims added new dimension to Assam, what every new community develops certain trends and cultural diversities in the society and polity of that land, which in turn enrich the existing one.

    The history and cultural heritage of each and every community of a place express the composite nature of that place and its greatness. Assam for its reach diversity in religion, language, ethnicity and culture forms a distinct and interesting identity in the history and heritage of India. The legacy of Muslims is a significant part of it. So their history is imperative to develop a comprehensive history of Assam. And finally of course a study of the past of Assam’s second largest community Muslim will definitely help to develop better understandings among different ethnic groups.

    Geography: Assam is located in the north east corner of India between the latitudes 28°18´and 24° N, and the longitudes 89°46´-97 E. It covered an area of 78.523 square Kilometers. Assam denote in this study contemporary Assam. However in some cases reference of Syllhet, a district of colonial Assam is imperative[6]. Because the present district of Karimganj has been a part of Syllhet throughout its history. It has the sane society, culture as that of Syllhet. When in 1947 Sylhet was declared a part of Pakistan, Karimganj subdivision was retained with India[7].

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Assam is in the center of Northeast India. It is surrounded on the north by Bhutan and Arunachal Pradesh, on the east by Arunachal, Nagaland, Manipur, on the south Mizoram, Tripura, and on the west lays Bangladesh, Meghalaya, and West Bengal. Except its border with west Bengal and Bangladesh from all other sides, Assam is bounded by hills. The state is physically divided into three parts:

    I. Brahmaputra Valley named after the river Brahmaputra, which flows from the east to the west in the northern part of Assam.

    II.Barak Valley identified by the name of the river Barak that flows from east to the west in south Assam.

    III. Hilly region comprising two hilly districts of Borail Range and Karbi Anglong Hills in the middle of Assam.

    Borail Range and Khasi-Jaintia hills separate Barak and Brahmaputra Valley. This hilly barrier makes geographical oneness of both valleys almost in accessible. So are the cultures and histories of the people of two valleys. That is why, in this study the Socio-Political history of two valleys discussed separately. There are very few instances of uniformity existed between these valleys during medieval period also.
    The history of Assam went through various phases of formation and fragmentation before to take the shape of modern one. Modern Assam is a creation of British colonialism[8]. In 1874, Assam was created as colonial province under a chief commissioner for an inexpensive and effective administration[9]. Consideration of historical continuity or cultural contiguity was not in the mind of British imperialist. The territories that formed the new province are:

    I. Mughal territories of Bengal Subah comprising lower parts have Brahmaputra valley (West Assam) and Barak valley (South Assam)[10].

    II. The territory of Ahom Kingdom comprising upper portion of Brahmaputra Valley (central and eastern part of modern Assam)[11].

    III.Territories of Dimacha-Kachari Kingdom comprising two hilly districts and a portion of Barak valley[12].

    IV. Some other small Kingdoms Domaria, Darang Etc[13].

    That is why the history of contemporary Assam is not synonymous with the history of Ahom Kingdom or the area that came to be referred as Assam, after British colonization as well as in the post independent period[14]. During colonial period, British annexed hilly states like Nagaland, Meghalaya, and Mizoram etc. into Assam. But after independence except the present territory of Assam, which is under study, all other places gradually parted away as separate states while major portion of Syllhet went to East Pakistan (present Bangladesh). Since Brahmaputra Valley constitutes the two third territory of present Assam; In general its past is what history designates of Assam today to the most modern historians.

    During ancient and medieval period Brahmaputra Valley is known by different names in the Epic, Puranic and early historical literature. It is mentioned as Pragjyotisha in both the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. Pragjyotisha included not only the whole of Brahmaputra Valley and parts of North and East Bengal but also the hilly tracts up to the border of China. It is known for the first time as Kamrup in Allahabad pillar inscription of Samudra Gupta and in the Early Puranas. The boundaries of Pragjyotisha or Kamrup did not remain static, underwent changes in different age for political and other reasons[15]. After the expedition of Bakhtiyar Khilji in 1226 A.D., the big state of Pragjyotisha-Kamrupa collapsed. There emerged small states. The remnants of Kamrupa named as Kamata. It was in 15th century Thai Ahoms, belong to the Shan stock in South East Asia, who had ruled Upper Brahmaputra Valley from 13th to early 18th century, able to unite large tracts of Kamrup into one identity. The western limit receded from the river Karatoya to the river Manas. The river Manas was western frontier not all times, only during the high times of Ahoms[16].

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Engrich

    Your long posts are sure to put someone to sleep after the customary yawn.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ manohar

    Are you sure you are enjoying this cut and paste and marvelling that God has finally spoken ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    I just glance through and see if there is anything worthwhile and new. If not, then go to the next one.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Do you mean to say that you read whatever he posts ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Not me. One of your fellow traveler yawns at anything more than three and half lines long. For proof, go back, check and see who?

    engrich Reply:

    yes sorry but it is very informative.hardly people know much about assam.

    Anonymous Reply:

    If you think something is informative yet a very long post, then just provide the link.

    engrich Reply:

    i dont have the link.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji Sirji,

    why don’t you explain to your friend, the jihadi engrich, the difference between migrants within India and the anti-India Bangladeshi illegal infiltrators into Assam?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Very unbecoming of you.

  • Anonymous

    ==============================================================
    ~!~ !~~ DR Mishra, Dr Pankaj please PLEASE prescribe diarrhea pills for Engrich ~~!
    ==============================================================

    Engrich Please PLEASE remember why you were kicked out of various blogsites in your previous disguise as Ram Avtar and Tajendra !

    People just hated the amount of nonsense you would post by picking up and cutting and pasting from various forums. On why Islam is superior and brhmns zionist etc are raping all.

    Now you have done it again in this Engrich mode. If you have all this nonsense to spout here specifiaclly directed at Ravi and Shan… please email to them directly.

    You have effectively destroyed this whole blog and killed the continuity. Even if you want to say something you can juist give a link. Tomorrow you would want to give the entire sermon of Zakir naik and Osama bin Laden here.

    Otherwise I will be the first one to start campaighning to block you again.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay-

    Agree!

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    were kicked out of various blogsites in your previous disguise as Ram Avtar and Tajendra

    if u have any objection discuss the matter.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Kumar, Shoeb, Mohan,

    this jihadi t..d has gone too far in his abuse of two of our decent bloggers, Rizwan and Parvez. So long as the abuse was directed at Brahmins and Hindu gods, Vinodji has chosen to wink at the jihadi outpourings, but he cannot remain silent and passive ANYMORE.

    THESE TWO JIHADIS NEED TO BE KICKED OUT AND THE SOONER, THE BETTER.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Prahlad

    Sadly the Indian media INCLUDING the Hindustan Times has ended up being the spokesman of the Congress party.

    In my view Rushdie should be here. Now. he is a gr8 writer period. And had no religious agenda. He made fun of a lot of people including Thakrey in his books.

    As an insaan he is maha tharki. Last time I saw him he was lining aup all the girls around. And not just flirting.

    Fundamantalists hate him. Look at our own blog site. Only Ravi and Engrixch are against his visit.

    To appease a certain sections of the Muslims the Congress took the law and order excuse. Deoband took out its customary fatwa. Simi is promising violence. BJP is a minor player.

    But Gehlot will shout BJP. Digvinash SIngh and Rahul will go to thier election rallies and tell Musliims, “We did all this to respect your sentiments.”

    And then to appeal to the liberal sections, Congress will depute its pyaadas in the media to say ” BJP BJP… BJP !”

    What fun !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    I will not mind being called maha maha tharki if few beautiful girls line up for me. Thank god my wife does not read this blog.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mohan

    Well said ! That is what is tempting me to become a writer … again and mix it up with my regular engineering work !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan,

    he may be a maha tharki, but two neech, alp thurkis are trying to silence critics of the government here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    The latest latest News : BJP will not let Rushdie visit.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rushdie’s visit is small change. He should come and go. If you dont like him avoid him. If you you appreciate his books what is wrong if he is here?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    hindu zoinists had plan to kill him and put blame on muslims and start communal riot.now shagoofa anna has failed they are searching something new.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Some of you may be following the ‘online piracy” bill going through the US Congress.

    People do win over the powerful once a while.

    The US congress backed off from a strict anti-piracy bill, mainly because of the online people pressure. The “old” business lobby, including Chamber of commerce, Motion Picture Association etc spent huge sums lobbying the Congress; but eventually it fizzled out – one by one, the house members and senators who had supported the bill (because of the lobbyist pressure) backed off after the online pressure from the citizens. The shutdown by online info providers such as Wikepedia etc also had an impact.

    An important milestone/turning point; but I am sure the lobbyists will “reinvent” in time, performing their usual assault on democracy..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb,

    Good news. There was some fear that US congress may bring in a law
    to curb freedom of expression.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb, Mohan,

    all this is good, but our own cyber gendarmes, headed by the most loyal palace courtier, Kapil Sibal, are thinking of throttling the internet, by arm-twisting google, yahoo etc. Perhaps, they must have brandished the most dreaded words, “Sonia’s Gestapo”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Here also if all the website in protest go offline for a day, that may have
    desired effect.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    RAVI AND ENGRICH

    Vijay, dont get upset at engrich, he is simply trying to cover up for Ravi. When I slammed ravi yesterday, engrich came on and started bombarding blog with nonsense. They used to do that last year as well- whenever ravi gets caught with his pants down, engrich appears to distract others from ravi’s humiliation.

    just curious what relationship these 2 have- do they live in same house ???? disturbing thought

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks for the advice. There has been speculation on this blog that they are both one and the same thing :)

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    engrich very offputting this c/p

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    balwinder knows how to defend himself.but insulting man of grandfather is not in our culture.

    i was defending my culture.dont talk much.this is my request.

    just curious what relationship these 2 have- do they live in same house ???? disturbing thought

    we both **** ur abbajee.now u know the relationship.battameez.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    dont reply otherwise i will teach u lesson.i was hurt with ur mail.a muslim boy is not supposed to write like this.this blog not chaupal.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Engrich you bloody idiot.

    Who are you to determine how a Muslim can think. Are you Allah?

    You are a donkey a duffer with a blocked mind. Your warped thinking has spoilt the lives of many a MUslim kid. Now you should learn reform and open the windows of your blocked drainpipe sewer mind.

    engrich Reply:

    boy should not be abusive to elders.i forgive next time u will have my awnser.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Engrich

    Why have you gone on personal insult you old blocked sewer pipe? just shows that you are not fit to be part of regular civilised society.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    .i just told hld him that balwinder can defend himself he is of his age.why u being so junior t interfere in their argument with abusive languge.is it part of our culture.then,
    what he has written. see urself.if boy of yr age write this to ur father ,will u accept.awnser

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan, Mohan, Parvez,

    it is very easy to tell us bloggers , ‘ignore the jihadi turds’. But if it is as simple as that, why would all of us protest to Vinodji about the earlier Ram Autar, who was finally thrown out unceremoniously. Fake Ravi, the other jihadi, saved himself by the skin of his teeth, with stern, but good-intentioned warning from Vinod Sharma.

    Shameless that these two jihadis are, they come back taking some other names, to spread their Wahabi poison.

    engrich Reply:

    buses were not started by me.be just.

    engrich Reply:

    abuses were not started by me.be just

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    You are right, but, this is a public forum where we cannot stop any one. I think if we all ignore him completely it may have some effect.

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    As you may have noted. I already ignore the Labellers. Just added another name to that list.

    Ravi Reply:

    Rizwan

    Sine you have difficulty in distinguishing between H O U N D I N G and offence.

    Read the above.

    Ravi Reply:

    Rizwan

    Inspired by Vinay, and encouraged by Gopi, I have given up personal attacks.

    It seems that you have not.

    I excuse you, your last tirade and this one.

    Should this unsavoury habit persist, I will come out of retirement and make you see day time stars.

    If you find what I say offensive then all you have to do is not interact with me, just as I am going to do with you, unless…..

    You have left DPS, see if you can leave the class IX language behind.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    JIHADI DRUM BEAT TO THE TUNE OF WAHABI TRUMPET.

    WHERE IS THE CONGRESSI TROLL ALWAYS READY TO CLAP TO THE BEATS?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    parrot

    engrich Reply:

    very good reply.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Guys,

    A request. Please leave this gentleman Engrich alone. He is a sick person,
    just ignore him. Whatever we all say is not going to have any effect on him.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–~~ TWO SICK JEHADIS WANTING TO push innoncent Muslims on their own path ~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    The Sick outpourings of Engrich and Ravi have convinced me that they are not happy seeing Muslims celeberating thier Indian-ness.

    In contraast Shoeb talks about economic growth and how India can be hte first world.

    Parvez is full of success stories and management ideas.

    Rizwan has got zip and Humour and questions how Muslims too can get social benefits.

    This scares the two terrorists who want them to fit in their agenda.

    How sick !!

    Rizwan and Pervez, these guys are pensioners of the ISI also getting dole from the UK government. The more you interact with them, the more they seize an opposrtunity to enter our pure land and cause destruction

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    RAVI, you missed my post in this mountain of hot air by engerich. CREDIBILTY is mans pagri, his izzat, that is fact puttar. And in front of gram panchayat, the boy Rizwan whu you 3 used to abuse came back from his 1 year vanvaas an Amitabh Bacchan and pinned you like wrestler Sushil Kumar on akhada floor. Fair and square.
    What goes round, comes round. Reflect move on.
    Now back to blog, Pakitan, I have gud suggestion, invite KAYANI to India, take him to 5 star resort in Goa, let him meet Pres Kalam and Premji, show him best of India, dont drop yr guard but impress them. Show indias best, show them they are behaving like miserablejehadis, give their children reservation in AIIMS, IIT, invest for long term. WHAT DO BLOGGERS SAY ??

    And ravi dont forget what I said. For a woman, lajja is best abhushan. For man, credibilty

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I did not miss it. I chose to ignore it, as I plan to ignore all other posts of yours

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    panchayat, the boy Rizwan whu you 3 used

    he is like my son i never abused.but i only advised him not to use abuse against ur elders.u have right to awnser him in his language he can interfere but should not forget age difference.pankaj jee gave me an urdu couplet,
    woh insaan insaan nahin,
    jise aish mein yade khuda na rahe
    taish mein khaufe khuda na rahe.

    i want to arm himself with knowledge then come.
    regarding kayani,india and pakistan have a certain class who get benfitted from voilence.i hate pak army class like rss.hate is their duty.they make money through wars.bankers take full advantages of poverty created by wars.increase interest rate increase profit.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    A question to all cricket lovers,

    Please do not ignore this.

    India is dubbed by media as flat track bullies because they win only at home.

    England lost all five matches in India and now are on verge of defeat against Pakistan
    In Dubai. Why they are not called fast track bullies by media ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Because the Indian media do not care what England does.

    English media uses colourful language differently, with regards to English Cricket.

    Furthermore Indian Media expects India to win, where as the English media is used to England loosing.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ravi bhai why some people angry with u.some may be angry with me as i write against brhmnsm.but why with u.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    They think we are the same people.

    Some think I am a Muslim pretending to be some one I am not.

    engrich Reply:

    so u are respected accept rejected and humiliated according to ur race and religion,not what u say.

  • Anonymous

    HERE IS A NEW YEAR PRAYER BY A WOMAN CHEATED BY GOD!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    Gr8 One !!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balwinder-

    Your idea of providing few seats for Pakistani students at IIT/AIIMS/IIMs is a brilliant one! These students will be here for four-five years (less in IIMs case, may be they can be given 2 year job offer/internship here), get to know systems, people, democracy, etc; hopefully take the positive aspects back home as their future leaders.

    I believe it has legs

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    gopi,

    there should be no visa for under25 boys.**** and indian boys should mix each other.take the best.our future generation should not live on fear and hate.
    if any sikh want to see his holy places,why he should apply and wait for visa.leave identity on border and go.same with muslims.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ONLY ON ONE CONDITION: THAT GEN. KAYANI WILL ORDER THE ISI TO WITHDRAW THE TWO JIHADIS FROM VINOD SHARMA’S BLOG.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Seats have been given at times. One of my classmates in engineering was from pakistan and his dad worked in the embassy here. However he finally migrated to the us !

    Still good friends with him. And still meet him at alumnii get togethers…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    what I meant was sort of a formal quota — not just for embassy staff

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And let me tell you this guy… still a good friend got a scholorship for international students. All by the way spent on GB Road by him– a brothel !

  • Anonymous

    All,
    Let us make sure this blog does not die the way Zia’s blog died. Zia’s blog used to have 700 plus comments, but it degenerated, people started leaving.
    Good ideas, hidden information, and noble actions have come out thru this blog.

    I vividly remember BV Shenoy bringing to our attention the plight of a Jawan from kerala, organizing a help line for his Aayurvedic treatment (that the army will not pay for under some obscure rules), and many of us contributing.

    So, little things, but meaningful to the party at the other end are possible.

    Egrich, please keep that in mind when you go crazy about brahminism and xionism

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Does this apply also to chief label-fabricator and others who are always going ‘crazy’ about their pet hates?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    brahminism and xionism

    if i write anything wrong please debate.

    brahminism and xionism are in root of all the evils of world.debate with me i will
    prove.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Friends,

    As per my view, banning is never a good option. It can be done only in extreme cases.

    I think Ravi has a particular view, It may be different or radically different from my and many other Blogger’s view, but it should be allowed to be aired. We are Indians, we have an ancient tradition of listening to different opinions, let that tradition remain.

    However ,if we find that the Blog is getting destroyed by Garbage , abuses and crowding of Blog space( criticizing any religion with valid and logical reasons is not abuse ), then the extreme option can be tried.

    Engrich as long as he keeps to one or two lines can still be tolerated.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Engrich as long as he keeps to one or two lines can still be tolerated.

    aaloke this is not ur blog.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    we have an ancient tradition of listening to different opinions, let that tradition remain.

    aaloke here i will object,in ancient times education was the property of few.it was never universal.budhdhists built centres of educations,cities roads not brhmns.tell me one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~ BREAKING NEWS !! MIR JAFAR & JAI CHAND slain by secular bloggers !! ~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————

    Right now Jai Chand is celeberating. That his guru Mir Jaffar has posted such a long piece of bullshit that Rizwan’s original query has been buried. :) :)

    In fact jai Chand has probably asked Guru Mir jaffar to keep Osama ji’s last speech ready for posting in case the topic again goes to termites who want to destroy India thru an ISI agenda.

    Hail !! All you secular boggers who have thrown Mir Jaffar and jai Chand into the sewer pit !!

    Allah hu Akbar !!

    Jai Shri Ram !!

    Sat Sri Akal !!

    Long live Christ !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    What was Mr Rizwan’s original query ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Prahlad

    When people lose arguemnts the post 20 pages of cut and paste trying to prove Indians are losers. As you would have noticed Mir jaffar disrupted an intersting discussion on UID and reservations.

    There was disscussion, jokes disagreements. In a nutshell, healthy blogging. Mir Jafar and Jai chand tend to destroy all this and get the focus on themselves. Who said what to them and why it is all about nrhmn zionism etc. If the topic is Chandrayan, UID or gilani they would only say rape, Brhmns zionism… low IQ brainwashed stuff.

    Anyway Prahlad, the HT had similar viewpoints on the UID written by Samar. Honestly i did not expect Chidamabram to be the spoiler. In case we create biometirc parameters for UID’s we could really prevent leakages of subsidies and reduce corruption hugely.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    Was this Mr Rizwan’s original query that you talked of ?

    If you are uncomfortable quoting Mr Rizwan’s original query, was it worth putting your time and effort reminding us about Mr Rizwan’s original query ?

    I believe you have certain sensibilities that is worth emulating by young bloggers.

    I am sure you would not like to let them down.

    Anonymous Reply:

    ok… then first Jai chand had made an allegation that People were blaiming him for driving Rizwan out of the blog with obscene postings.

    Rizwan just said that he was a bachcha then. But today he would Give it back solidly to Shan, Mir jaffar and jai Chand in case they resort to obscene postings.

    And by the way in the mountain of garbage Mir jaffar posted, you would have missed that he abused Rizwan’s father.

    So now I have given you the background and the original post of jai Chand and Rizwan’s reply which was in refernce to the original post. For the rest you can scroll back…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Sir,

    The whole thing started with Mr Rizwan’s this original query :

    …just curious what relationship these 2 have- do they live in same house ???? disturbing thought …He was referring to Mr Ravi and and Mr engrich

    For a person like Mr Rizwan who made such a profound statement like ..”people who wanted to leave India left in 1947″, a comment like this was uncalled for.

    Hope we will not discuss it further.

    Ravi Reply:

    Prahlad

    You seem to have an advantage over me. You seem to have understood this uncalled for tirade. I am sorry to say that I failed to understand it.

    Anonymous Reply:

    That is because he is not a jihadi nor a Wahabi, and he has so far not said anything about 5000 rapes of dalit women etc., etc.

    As yet, he is also not a Hindu hater, like you are.

    engrich Reply:

    hate is duty of hindu and hate is the base of hinduism.brhmnst hate everybody.that is why modi is not ready to say even sorry to victims of ahmadabad.

    Anonymous Reply:

    That is because he is not a jihadi nor a Wahabi, and he has so far not said anything about 5000 rapes of dalit women etc., etc.

    As yet, he is also not a Hindu hater, like you are.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahladji Sirji,

    I think, too often you are sitting in judgement on which blogger should have or should not have written what, according to your own predilections.

    Are you in any way related to Kapil Sibal (apart, of course, from being a chanter of jai mata di)?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Sir,

    Does it mean that I expect you not to comment on people about what they write on this blog and you will not be judgemental about it in future?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Only if one did not have deficit in his intelligence, then perhaps ………..

    engrich Reply:

    he should dicuss the subject not personilities.he can present his point of view against ravi view.more than this is wrong.u and vijay have the same habit.

    engrich Reply:

    prahald i am sorry shenoyv and vijay have same habit.not u.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “When people lose arguemnts the post 20 pages of cut and paste trying to prove Indians are losers”

    And the congressi troll will ask you to go back 20 blogs to read what he replied to your today’s question.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,
    Don’t you think Congressi Prahalad is becoming self-appointed moderator? Seems to be Vinod Sharma’s man.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Good news for Congressis. Their boy Kalmadi got bail. He has been given chance to work with Congress govt. and destroy all evidences. He may also pay visit to 10 Janpath in the darkness of night and give true account of his loot and give appropriate cut to Mataji.

    Second news – Rahul has questioned Uma Bharti’s origin while addressing a rally in UP. Poor fellow forgot about his mother’s origin. Uma Bharti ne Totey ki bolti band kar di. Only lady like Uma can take on low lives like Rahul and Digvijay..master and slave jodi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Giving fitting repostes to a chokra like Amul baby is Uma Bharati’s special gift.

    As for Kalmadi, giving a cut to mataji was never a part of the scheme. He was to only perform the role of the accountant to “manage” the loot. The loot itself was to be e-transferred to the numbered account in Tokyo, Mauritius etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    How congressi trolls criticize actions of Congress?

    IF….THEN….IF…THEN…IF…THEN…BUT BJP also does same thing.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    Just curious. You studied in a minority college. Now at the end of it frankly did your feelings towards Muslims change? Positively or negatively?

    And how could the interaction be made more positive to reduce prejudice?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    At the end of the day, I realized good and bad people are there in every community but the percentage of such people differ from community to community. For example 90% of the hindus are tolerant and 10% fundoos whereas 90% of the muslims are fundoos and 10% moderately or reluctantly tolerant. They have their own limitations. You can’t force your values on them. A hindu becomes a good hindu if he respects all the faith whereas a muslim/christian become a good muslim/christian based on how much disrespect he shows towards other religion especially the paganic religions.

    In fact I realized the discrimination practiced in college only when I came out of college and started living in real world. However I have no complaints. All I can say is that I am happy India is still a hindu majority country. We have this freedom thanks to this majority.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Another good news for Congressi Jamaat-
    Pankaj Pachauri from NDTV (a wing of Congress Sandesh) has been appointed PMO media advisor.

    I have been following Pankaj Pachauri’s debate and had an inkling that he was Congress man in media. Poor Vinod Sharma lost again..I feel for Sharma. He works so hard working for Congress and what he gets in return..a haddi in the form of ‘Member of minority commission’…Poor guys must be sobbing in his basement.. Khuda unko Sabr aataa farmaye..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pachauri has already quit !!!!!!

    he was to report to harish khare… and he hated the idea !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No Harish Khare has quit and Pankaj will now be serving Dynasty and their puppet.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No Harish Khare has quit and Pankaj will now be serving Dynasty and their puppet.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,
    you are rather harsh on my friend, Vinodji, compared to whom Pankaj Pachauri is ‘kal ka chokra’. No doubt he is from the NDTV stable and NDTV is above everybody else in the worship of the mother-son party, Pachauri might have got a higher rating.

    But, take my word. Vinodji is second to none in the devotion department. And I feel Mataji has something special for him. May be high commissioner to Islamabad or Dacca or even London.

    LET US WAIT AND WATCH. AND HOLD OUR CELEBRATIONS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,
    Aap ke munh mein Ghee Shakkar. I may not agree with Vinod but I do admire his commitment towards 10 Janpath. I hope Sonia reward him soon.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,
    Aap ke munh mein Ghee Shakkar. I may not agree with Vinod but I do admire his commitment towards 10 Janpath. I hope Sonia reward him soon.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~ ISLAMIC FUNDAMANTALISTS ATTEMPT COUP IN BANGLADESH ~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    news coming in that hardline Islamic fundamantlists in the bangladesh army wanted to topple the hasina government.

    I wonder in the end what the hardline Islamic efundamantlists want to achieve through coups. Is it an agenda to convert all Non Wahabbi Muslims and minorities to theri Osama line of thought.

    healthy discussion please. Mir jaffar and Jai Chand dont try to dilute the seriousness of the subject by mumbling ” Modi Modi rape rape” or brhmns and zionism.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think India should take interest in BD on high priority and protect Awami league govt. from pro-pak elements in BD. We should help Hasina detoxify BD of Pakistani influence. One Afghanistan is enough for the whole world.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    haseena wajid will have end like her father or worse.she is playing zoinist card there.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Why do I get a feeling that you still feel pain of 1971 defeat of Pakistan?

    What an Indian whose heart bleeds for rapist pakistani army!!!

    Shame on you.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think India should take interest in BD on high priority and protect Awami league govt. from pro-pak elements in BD. We should help Hasina detoxify BD of Pakistani influence. One Afghanistan is enough for the whole world.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    viju

    mamata screwed up MMS river/financial pgms for BD..

    We really have to make sure they r progressing, growing (which they are– yhey are better off than India in many social/health metrics)..Army and fundamentalist extremists are waiting for trouble

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rajeev

    Feel bad that you did not have a good experience in a Muslim college.

    I have done most of my schooling and college where I as a Muslim have been probably about 3% of the institution. But my experince has been largely and hugely positive. Most of my friends are non Muslims. No discrimination.

    The occasional banter of “katua” is amongst friends on who is going to pay the canteen bill.

    I feel bad that politicians and people want us to be religious Muslims all the time. A few idiots on this blog reprimand us for stepping our of the way Muslims are supposed to write and talk.

    In te end we are all human beings first. Sadly in this country everyone wants us to be Muslims first.

    Rajeev, dont blame your classmates for this. There has to be more non religious friendly interaction of Muslims with others.

    that is why I think reservation for Muslims as Muslims will only strengthen the religous identity and not their national identity. But classifying them as poor and unemployed or deprived will bring them closer to others.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,
    Except for some muslim classmates (the one who wanted to create another pakistan), most of muslim classmates were very polite and friendly. I have no ill will towards my muslim friends. I was more bothered about overall atmosphere in the college like-
    1. Quran Khwani being organized all the time using loud speakers.
    2. College canteen turned into a Mosques.
    3. Sports teacher favoring muslim boys especially the so-called PIOUS ones.
    4. Calling us for extra classes on hindu festival on purpose.
    5. Professor who was educated at IIT Kanpur, making fun of Hindus.
    6. The same professor not taking his classes properly in the days of ramzan.
    7. On fridays there were no lectures between 12 to 2.

    and many others. I am stilled pissed with the atmosphere not with muslim classmates. I got to know first hand what it is to live in muslim majority place. At that point of time, I was not even aware of difference between hindus and muslims (because of my defence and sufi upbringing) but as I matured, I realised what was being done against non-muslims in that college.

    But our principal was gem of a person..The only secular and liberal muslim whom I have met in flesh and blood.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well this is a difficult post for me to reply and you can guess the reason why. But let me for the moment be a rationalist

    1) I would be against loud speakers blaring religious discourses, even if it is Quran in ANY college as it has people from all relgions. Further College time is the time to question the validity and limitations of religion. Frankly as Muslims we cannot go beyond the book. But I have questioned the Book many a time.

    Any research on evolution or social sciences or pure sciences will in the end be probably done outside countries which adopt islam as religion. Or for that matter any religion becomes a state religion and the text becomes the end all.

    They would probably prescribe the death sentence to anyone who says that man came out of a monkey !! ]

    2) I would be sad if the college canteen became a mosque… or even a temple or a church.

    3) Sports is about kicking the ball not about reciting relgiosus verses. Pretty bad.

    4) Sad if professors insulted HIndus and Hindu festivals.

    I guess all this has to be removed, busted. Getting out of the ghetto mentality is he way.

    However (now I can be killed for this) de toxifying ourselves of relgion for some time can also do wonders. For a moment imagine I am NOT religous. And then after a few days read the text again.

    A lot of it will look like nonsense. And that stands good for all religions.

    Some years later I may come back strongly to islam. For the moment I feel it has badly lost its way as a liberal discourse which invites people.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,
    Islam has many sects and some of those are pretty tolerant and spiritual in nature but as Defending Islam is new fad among young muslims, even tolerant sects are under attack as you must observed that sufi strines in pakistan are being regularly bombed. I feel Ajmer blast in India is also related to this neo-wahabism across the border (I am not giving clean hindus under suspicion).

    Some tolerant sects instead of fighting deobandis has joined them and are even competing with deobandis to prove their loyality to Islam. The Barelvi Qadri murdered Salman Taseer and now Qadri is considered a hero in Pak. Recently Barelvi Ulema have joined deobandis attacking Rushdie.

    This is sad development not only for Islam but the countries where muslims reside.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Sufi sects were about fusion. They would and have always ruffled the feathers of consevatives.

    Above all, I think all os are also individuals who need to make decisons for ourselves. In case we folow people who occupy temples and mosques we are letting go of our indvisual senses.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev/Parvez

    Good discussion guys. Don,t bother about Engrich, ignore him and carry on.

    engrich Reply:

    u are an idiot so points mentioned here are full of idiocy.u can keep ur views leave islamic fold.but dont abuse others view.dont insists that u are right.let this to be decided by others.
    i thinks u require cure in lunatic asylum.

    engrich Reply:

    ur father should not have send u there.all seven points u mentioned happens in all minority run schools.schools run by arya samaj or even christian missionary schools.
    tell me what was being done against u especially.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rajeev

    Feel bad that you did not have a good experience in a Muslim college.

    I have done most of my schooling and college where I as a Muslim have been probably about 3% of the institution. But my experince has been largely and hugely positive. Most of my friends are non Muslims. No discrimination.

    The occasional banter of “katua” is amongst friends on who is going to pay the canteen bill.

    I feel bad that politicians and people want us to be religious Muslims all the time. A few idiots on this blog reprimand us for stepping our of the way Muslims are supposed to write and talk.

    In te end we are all human beings first. Sadly in this country everyone wants us to be Muslims first.

    Rajeev, dont blame your classmates for this. There has to be more non religious friendly interaction of Muslims with others.

    that is why I think reservation for Muslims as Muslims will only strengthen the religous identity and not their national identity. But classifying them as poor and unemployed or deprived will bring them closer to others.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Engrich posting 50 pages of non relevent nonsense was the rant of a losing duffer. A madman who needs psychological treatment. Ignore him.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    parvez dont read my rants.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Engrich posting 50 pages of non relevent nonsense was the rant of a losing duffer. A madman who needs psychological treatment. Ignore him.
    PARVEZ ur mother is fked by dogs when u are born u are true son of *****.u put bottle of whisky in ur *** when come on this blog.dont awnser or awnser why abuse.
    u are pure donkey.

    r

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Psycho Engric

    Your obscene language and perverse fantasies prove that you need mental treatment. You cannot be religious as you the language you have used does not belong to any religion

    I think you are a kafir.

  • Anonymous

    We have another new foul mouthed member on the loose. Gopi’s appeal seems to have gone in vain, as was Pankaj’s earlier one too. They are supposed to be ‘educated’, ‘cultured’ and those sort of things. Speaks volumes about their ‘education’ and ‘culture’.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    We all know what people like you have been doing on this forum..so called educate and liberal..The real fact is that you are communal to the core and to hide this you keep on pointing at others.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mr manohar

    If you are talking about me, then I am sorry to say you are being selective. You did not notice how that madman Enriqe abused Rizwan’s family. You did not notice how he disrupted debate. You could not see how he promotes and foists fundamantlism on Muslim youth.

    But you rush to defend him for some strange reason. Maybe Shoeb, Rizwan and I dont fit into the stereotype of Muslims you want us to be and Enrique fits that bill to your comfort.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,
    You are wasting time on this person. He is out and out communal congressi troll who finds nothing wrong with Congress-Jehadi nexus.

    You will be disappointed. I tried but all I saw was hypocrisy and lies.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, I was referring to you. If you have the time please go through some previous blogs to know more about views on issues, including language that is being bandied about.

    My question, why do you stoop to other people’s (*) low (or non-existent) standards of interaction and debate? If you wish to be so and think you will be more effective that way, that is your choice.

    * There are plentiful of them here.

    If you must know, I do not interact with three people on this blog – whatever the provocation – never know when they will resort to abusive language thinking that they will “score” a point. Just royally ignore them, as I am not here to indulge in the game of shoot the messenger or what I call label making and plaster them on others who do not agree with them – a favourite pastime of many here. See one of the responses just below. He is just wasting his time trying to engage with me. I am not going to oblige, no matter whatever he says. If it makes him happy by labeling me and passing judgments about me, so be it. Let him happy. Who cares? Not me.

    I have appealed to all to desist from using unparliamentary language.

    In a short time you have been here, you seem to have ’sized me’ up and reach conclusions about me. I am amazed.

    Lastly, I do not paint people with the same brush based on religion or caste or whatever, just because X said this or did that. So no stereotypes for me. You are Parvez to me, different from Rizwan or Engrich.

    I will debate with you on the points you make not because your are Parvez or Parvesh or whoever.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    Your bosom friend Enrich has abused my mother and family in obscene language ON THIS VERY BLOG.

    I am sure you will not notice but only silently celeberate because he represents a certian mindset of fanatics which you seem to be supporting.

    Do I need to cut and paste all the abuses he is heaping on me? Should I also do the same to his mother ?

    No I will not do that because Engrich is a lost fanatic. He is a Kasab type of person who wants Muslims to remain backwards and slaves of intolerant towards others. he has made his life by scaring us.

    Sadly you have only encouraged him.

    Anonymous Reply:

    There you go again. You have decided who my bosom friends are and that I silently admire abuse on others. You continue to ‘amaze’ me. I will look forward to more ‘revelations’ about me which I am not aware off.

    How you deal with others is your problem, not mine. I am not anyone’s keeper or wish to be one. Since you asked a question, I ignore abuse and labeling directed at me. It is more a reflection on the character (actually lack of it) of the abuser than of the target. The choice is yours. In Hindi there is a sating which goes like ‘if one jumps in the well,will you ………”

    If you ‘care’ to read, I have been been appealing to all for restraint.

    PS: I have been wondering for quite sometime about something. Because I am still wondering, though it is less now, I will not articulate.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    this congressi troll is the sole defender of the jihadis on this blog.

    If you want to understand his “secularism”, you have to go back 20 blogs of Vinod Sharma. If you ahve so much time to waste, then use it better somewhere else.

    As for him, you are now branded as “foul mouthed”.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This is Ravi’s tolerant Islam..I hope Manohar as usual will support muslim tolerance.

    ‘Fatwa’ announced against Christian schools in Kashmir, 3 priests asked to leave valley

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Fatwa-announced-against-Christian-schools-in-Kashmir-3-priests-asked-to-leave-valley/articleshow/11555784.cms

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    fatwa is right what iswrong.it is also as per constitution.what is wrong.rajeev explain.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    rajeev

    dragging Ravi was not needed to present the argument

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    It was important because SIKH Ravi has great sympathy for Islamic intolerance and terrorism.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ilam is the most tolerant religion.u are wrong.u look brainwashed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    How else would it make one’s day?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    on the contrary, it is a must, because he is a staunch supporter of the jihad in Kashmir and the Nizam-e-Mustafa the terrorists are trying to establish i the Indian state of J&K.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    guys!

    Let us stop this “which is better” religion discourse uless there is a ‘micro” subject demanding thediscussion.
    Let us discuss governance, hold the legislators , bureaucrats etc responsible.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Your pleas are falling on deaf ears. There is a flood of abuse, labeling, etc. etc. – never mind what is being discussed.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I think it is best – in the interest of the blog – to not counter punch and poison the blog. Thankfuly there are still some intelligent and good debaters here who are keeping this blog sane.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Right. That is what I have been doing for months. Why waste time on the presumptuous?

    Now perhaps this exchange will also invite abuse.

    Ravi Reply:

    As it did

    Anonymous Reply:

    Bad habits die hard.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Hazaar choohe khaa ke jihadi billi Wahabi Saudi gayee.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    I agree with you but problem is every time we discuss some constructive topic Congressi-Jihadi nexus starts BJP, BJP..RSS…RSS chant. You can see that in every post of Congressis. When confronted with difficult situation, they divert the topic.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev,A person is known by company he keeps. This Manohar is in the company of Jihadis like Enrich and Ravi and Congress trolls like Mahesh and Prahalad.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Every “terrorist attack” in India is the handiwork of the Brahminist wicked brain. But because of their media monopoly, the Muslim is criticised and

    the innocent people made to believe that Muslims are “terrorists”. The “war on terror”, therefore, means war on Muslims

    gopi jee .i need ur comment.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    do you honestly believe that that is possible when the two pests, fake Ravi and the gutter ka keeda, engrich are polluting this blog with their incessant garbage?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Congressi troll thinks that I am trying to interact with him. I guess he is delusional. Whenever he talks nonsense, I just show him the mirror.

    Behind those so-called liberal thoughts, I see a communal hypocrite who wants status quo because it suits his vested interests.

    A person is known by company he keeps. This Manohar is in the company of Jihadis like Enrich and Ravi and Congress trolls like Mahesh and Prahalad.

    This blog shows the political alignment that we see in India..Congress-Jihadis on one side and rest on other side.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev u are from sufi family.even after seeing and reading that hindu forces perpeuted 600 communal riots and caught in bomb planting bussines.u say muslims are intolerant while u people are tolerant.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi,
    What is your opinion on Kalmadi continuing as IOA president? Is there as possibility that he will be inducted a Sports Minister by honest PM MMS? It has happened before when Vilasrao Deshmukh was asked to step down as CM after 26/11 pakistani peace initiative and later inducted into Union Ministry.

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    gopi jee,

    Like the Jews, their Brahminist cousins are collectively killing all our senses and programmed us to focus on sex, violence, trivia, property, stock market, entertainment, drinking, eating, cheating — Kamasutra

    do you agree with me.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    PARVEZ/ AALOKE, ISHWAR – I AM SUTRADHAR, let me provide you with a guide to most addictive blog on planet, also called slippery minefield, haha. It is like a Indian mela, full of interesting characters-
    Rizwan- he of bloodshot eyes, comes and takes on villain- yaad hai tooney mujhey bacpan main tang kia tha etc etc. All he lacks is a Kareena

    Balwinder praaji and Shri Shri Shenoy, bank manager- they are in their sixties and are like jhhoomtey hue haathi, in ‘must’, look drunk, but be vaary careful, they act in unison and kill their prey with humour and by setting traps. Balwinder’s jokes on Ravi are part of blog folklore by now, and are told in campfires across India (eg taking Rizwan’s rishta to Lahore and Osama’s watery embrace)

    Gopi- Malyaali christian who quotes geeta. I have been honoured to be told that my historical knowledge matches his
    Vijay- Noida and Mayawati expert, went to meet Walmart MD in dhaariwaala kaccha, haha
    Mohan- biggest provider of jokes on blog along with Shenoy- mera janaaza rok do, aagey daaru ki dukaan aa rahi hai, lol

    Ravi- gets tripped and trussed up with regularity every week. Lives in Lahore or London or Delhi, no one knows. Says Taleban blowing up girls schools and hindus protesting Valentine cards, all same. Always on the run from Shenoy and praaji chasing him in a jeep, although this week got blown away by into outer space by ab main baccha nahin raha My name is dabang rizwan khan

    Ramavtar=tajender=engrich- brahmin zionists dunnit fame
    Manohar & Mahesh- hate BJP, Anna, protectors of ravi, fair enough

    AND FINALLY, Dr Mishra, sailing golfing diving surfing doctor in cold and wet Yorkshire, sutradhaar, loves India and this mad mela blog with passion , annoys people by taking contrarian views- eg praising Veer Savarkar and supporting Rizwaan on muslim poor reservation- bleeds tiranga, loves saying with genuine passion Mera bhaarat mahaan- and then withdrawing to his glass of wine most nights. Good night all

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Mohan’s fav -
    Rok lo mera janaaza, murdey mein jaan aa gayi hai.
    Aagey sey left ko ley lo, daaru ki dukaan aa gayi hai

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    GOOD

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    forgot SHAN and Rajeev, somebody else take over now, provide pen portraits

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    I am on my third drink, so Ravi mere dost, yeh sher tumharey liye-

    Tod le jate hain patton ko guzarne wale,
    Itni neechi mere ehsaas ki daali kyun hai…”

    Ravi, tumhaari soch bahut ajeeb hai, isiliya is blog key log tumhaari ehsaas ki daali (what praaji calls your credibility) tod ley jaatey hai

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    mishra jee before writing u should have fair knowledge of the subject.u write ,what u feel is right.like on shias on pakistan.
    being an rss sympathiser.u think like them.they brainwash indians on distorted history which was prepared by britishers to divide india give bad name to good muslim rulers.they have done same with saddam and ghaddafi.the rule we have seen very closely.

    [Reply]

    shekhar gandotra Reply:

    Gran pig engric

    You should convert to Christianity to get over continous stammer of Zionism, brhmns etc

    engrich Reply:

    christians and indians are the main victim of these 2 satanic cousins.

    engrich Reply:

    Says Taleban blowing up girls schools and hindus protesting Valentine cards,
    taleban is fighting a war of liberation they destroying one room hut whom they call school.reason is enemy take shelter in night time and attack them.
    valentine day —-brhmnst ram sena do this as they have no work.mishrajee if u want to make riot contact ram sena they will do it for u.ony 2-3 muslims should be in vicinity.
    maoists are destroying one day school.does not mean that they are against education.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Strong Urge to Conform

    Most of us feel the need to conform to group norms. The desire is to go along with the norms of a group of people, so that one is accepted as an in-group person and not rejected as an out-group undesirable person.

    Similar group dynamics have been in play in this blog for a long time. Through various fairly obvious devices, imperceptible pressure is exerted on new arrivals to encourage them to conform. This behaviour of certain self-appointed leaders of the in-group here has recently become more evident.

    It is sad to see some new and returning members adopting the in-group’s values, opinions, language style, etc. One significantly noticeable example is how quickly the new comers have joined in attacking the members of the out-group, for no personal rhyme or reason. This they do in order to cement their membership of the in-group. It is also indicative of the strength of their desire to be accepted by the in-group. Personal insecurities are propped up by in-group loyalty.

    On the other hand it is heartening to see one or two brave individuals who have retained their individuality by expertly practicing their ASSERTIVENESS TRAINING. I salute these individuals.

    AS IF BY MAGIC THE GOOD DOCTOR FURNISHES A PERFECT EXAMPLE

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, it is amazing that new members adopt so quickly. Must be ‘fast learners’ or are they really …………

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Ravi,

    Continuing with our earlier exchange.

    I make a distinction between Discussion and Argument.

    Argument is when you come with fixed ideas which can not be altered. And why they can not be altered , because they are tied too tightly with your Ego. This Ego comes from our deep rooted inferiority complex. You look for win for yourself and loss for your adversary. It is infact a battle. A supposedly win inflates the Ego , however no one concedes loss, It is only other who thinks he has won. in actual, there is no winner and looser in an Argument.

    In a discussion, you have your point of view, it could be very strongly held view, but you still come with an open mind. You are ready to listen patiently and respectfully to others point of view. You look for what is the right view even if it is against your view. In discussion, there is scope for positive contribution and positive gain of knowledge. There is no looser. Everyone gains.

    Now coming to our topic of discussion ,” Should reservations or benifits be available to Muslims on the basis of their religion”.

    My point is very clear, their backwardness ( Not poverty as was misunderstood last time ) is self inflicted. We see same example happening even in Muslim communities in UK and other European countries where they have immigrated. Compare this with other non muslim immigrants of similar background. The reason is very very clear. It is the hold of their religion which has kept them backward. Others have been able to un shackle hold of their religion( particularly the regressive part ) to quite an extent. There was no special discrimination that Muslims faced in British rule , discrimination that Hindu’s did not face. On the other hand, Hindus besides facing whatever discrimination was faced by all Indians, were taunted, vilified for their religious beliefs.This never happened with Muslims. That vilification is still On. Britishers as also Muslims before them having come with understanding of Abrahmnic religions could not understand supposedly complex philosphies of Hindus. After independence, there has not been any structural disadvantage that Muslims have faced except for their inward looking approach which stems from their religious philosophy.Examples of other Muslim born people on this Blog is what they can do when they un-shackle this regressive religious bond. I have my own first hand experience with many Muslim friends who have never faced discrimination in India.

    Muslims have their role models who have done exceedingly well in all spheres, a very large number of them are progressing in line with progress of other communities,Muslims are also not the poorest lot,. The solution, which applies to Indian muslims as also to Muslims of Pakistan or Europe is to un-shackle hold of their regressive religious philosophy. For this Education should be top priority particularily for their Girls.Govt should definitely give additional help in this.

    This country was divided on the basis of religion, which does not mean we have to take revenge by discriminating Muslims of today, but let us also not reward them for that.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke Sir,

    Very aptly put.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Finally some one spoke the truth. Well done Aaloke..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke

    I think you have remarkably defined the difference between discsussions and arguements. If you permit, I would use the line for our college debates.

    You are also right about the education part. Wish I could become a management teacher one day. But… as we joke in our Institute, people come back to teaching after they have failed thier corporate careers!

    Naah! I am being nasty here… Yes we need schools with emphasis for girls.

    My own feelings is that the real reform in Islam will happen with interactions in the West where newer generations will appreciate the freedoms theses societies give to think and change. However I hear that even UK is considering Sharia laws. That would be a bad step.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke

    ‘Argument is when you come with fixed ideas which can not be altered. And why they can not be altered , because they are tied too tightly with your Ego. This Ego comes from our deep rooted inferiority complex. You look for win for yourself and loss for your adversary. It is in fact a battle. A supposedly win inflates the Ego , however no one concedes loss, It is only other who thinks he has won. in actual, there is no winner and looser in an Argument’.

    This battle is fought here day in and day out – the weapon that is used (we know by who all) most often is abuse and labeling with the ‘fond-hope’ that the opponent will be ‘defeated’ and walk away or is it the case ‘offence (pun intended) is the best defence’, when there is none?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke,

    Very good post. Plight of muslims and the reasons for their plight is very well known
    by all, but few people refuse to accept it.
    The first paragraph of your post I found very interesting. Your description of people
    with fixed views was perfect. That is one of the reason we often argue on this blog
    instead of discussing.
    Please keep on posting your opinion on different subjects regularly, as you bring a refreshingly different views.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaaloke-

    Agree.

    India’s problems are not Muslim problems, not Vaniyar problems, not Lingayt problems, not Kamma problems – they are Indian problems – roads, schools, health care, clean water, – the list is endless. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Rich, poor – all want these. Govt should focus on building, not destroying the community.

    A policy of reservations coupled with the rising cost of private information as resulted in good minds being recruited by western universities. As I mentioned earlier, many nephews and nieces of my close TamBrahm friends are now in premier western institutes. Letting the country’s good brains out is not a good policy.

    Discrimination comes in many forms. No Muslim living here today is responsible for the partition of the recent history or the destruction of Somnath of the past history. No Brahmin of today is responsible for casteism . To some extent, in some quarters, there is a tendency to assign a permanent guilt – just like Jewish people want to assign guilt for the holocaust to the second and third generations of the German perpetrators.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb,

    Agree with you. It is high time we should start labeling our problems as Indian
    problems only.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    The day we all start treating our problems as Indian problems, things would start looking different. The magic – “inclusiveness” factor is built in your very statement itself.

    shekhar gandotra Reply:

    @ Prahlad

    I think then you shold have the guts to say that reservation should be for Indians and not on basis of religion. In case mUslim is poor and backward give it to him. Not becasue of votebank that we shouild give reservation to all Muslim becausethen they will vote for us

    Ravi Reply:

    Dear Aaloke

    I read your post with some interest, in particular the use of word “you” which cleverly positions Aaloke in the realm of open discussers and designates Ravi as a closed minded argumentative person. Those comforted by this distinction have already congratulated you.

    My ARGUMENTS restricted to social conservatism are:

    1. Self Inflicted Backwardness – By this I assume you mean, social conservatism, which manifests itself in anti-modernism. In your speculation you focus only on Muslim Backwardness, as if such backwardness does not exist among other religious communities. Religious inspired backwardness can be seen among Christians – some denominations – in Utah, Pennsylvania, most Southern States of the USA, the Appellation Mountains, etc. Orthodox Jews could also be classed as backward by your implied criteria. They can be found both in the USA as well as in Israel. I am sure other examples can be documented given time and motivation. So social conservatism – as inspired (dictated) by religious doctrine is not restricted to Islam. Strains of the same or similar backwardness can be found in every religion of the world. In UK Jehovah’s Witness are in their own peculiar way anti modernism, not only discouraging female education but even other modern inventions such as blood transfusion. Medical professions here make special dispensation when surgically treating them.

    2. But Islam is special – I hear you shout. If one was to take attitude towards Girls education as the acid test for the presence of social conservatism, then it may seem that Islam is particularly conservative. When people state this, they picture in their minds the Taliban, and other Wahabi Inspired Muslims. Whilst I will not dispute the accuracy of their observations, but I will argue against gross generalisation based upon such sporadic observations and newspaper reports. These generalisations are made for short term political gain, rather than a reformist perspective.

    Girls go to school in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Algeria, UAE, Bahrain, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

    My contention is that this regression into conservatisms emanates from a single powerful and dangerous source and is not a true representative, either historically or philosophically of an entire religion. This agitation appears more to do with one’s (please note I did not use the word “your’s”) deep rooted Islamophobia, than any real concerns for backwardness of some unfortunate citizen’s of India.

    [Reply]

    shekhar gandotra Reply:

    @ Ravi

    Pure nonsense

    You suffer from Islamophobia becasue you want to keep them backward.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    REMOVAL IS POVERTY IS KEY.EDUCATION SHOULD BE DECLARED FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF EVERY INDIAN.

    IN EDUCATIONAL FIELD WOMEN OF BANGLADESH IS AHEAD OF INDIA.BARRING HIGH LEVEL OF BACKWARDNESS IN OTHER HINDU COMMUNITY IS EQUALLY RAMPANT.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The Right To Education Act 2009 guarantees education for all children in the age group 6 to 14 years. The problem in our country is the implementation of the various laws and acts.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    As usual you have justified the backwardness of Muslims by comparing with backwardness of some people from other religions. And again as usual you have not compared the magnitude of muslim’s backwardness with others.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    1. Backwardness – Aaoleke discussed Muslim backwardness. He is perfectly alright for not discussing others such as Appalachians you indicated, because it is not germane to India.
    2. Yes, girls go to school in the countries you listed. However, in many countries, including Pakistan, far less girls than boys attend school, and the percentage drops significantly when high school/college level is reached. Unesco reported that girls’ education in Pakistan is at a dangerously low level (I have the percentages in one of my folders). My guess is that literacy levels in some of the countries such as the Southeast Asian countries (Indonesia, Malaysia) and Turkey are quite high, and there will not be any major difference in literacy attainment between boys and girls.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Nicely articulated.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    In fact, it is non-sensically, stupidly speculated.

    engrich Reply:

    1. Self Inflicted Backwardness – By this I assume you mean, social conservatism, which manifests itself in anti-modernism. In your speculation you focus only on Muslim Backwardness, as if such backwardness does not exist among other religious communities.

    aaloke this propaganda.a himalayan lie.check women education in muslims countries,all 90 plus.all indiicators of bangladesh women including education are better than india.u are brainwashed rss man.
    even in india muslim women is advancing very fast.poverty is the main obstacle not religion.

    AALOKE DONT FORGET THAT INDIA HAS THE LARGEST POOL OF ILLERATE PERSON IN THE WORLD.REASON IS POVERTY.
    SO INDTEAD OF FIGHTING ISLAM ON CLUMSY GROUNDS BETTER TO FIGHT POVERTY.CONDITION OF YR HINDU WOMEN
    TOO IS NOT GOOD(EXCEPT CERTAIN RICH CLASS).

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    This country was divided on the basis of religion

    thsi division in not natural.this was carried out by brhmnsts to start blood bath.base of our is caste.like digvijay is not brhmn hence cursed by brhmns of this site all the time.brhmns of the site keep silent on thieves and murderers of his community.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    This country was divided on the basis of religion

    this division is not natural.this was carried out by brhmnsts to start blood bath.base of our society is caste.like digvijay is not brhmn hence cursed by brhmns of this site all the time.brhmns of the site keep silent on thieves and murderers of his community.so caste i supreme.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    He He …the true face of Indian Secularism…Vinod Sharma Sahib’s secularism…the Congress party’s secularism…Sahmat’s secularism…Teesta Setalvad’s secularism..Indian Media’s secularism.
    Four Christian Missionaries have been ordered to leave Jammu & Kashmir. Are we talking of India ?? He He … Yes …. Parties in Power … Congress and National Conference. News reported by the secular Indian Media in 15 col cms size …in the inside pages of some Indian newspapers. Did NDTV report it …No I do not think so..He He
    (With gratitude to Balwinder Praaji for borrowing his” He He” )

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen Sir,

    I was about to question you on “he he”, then noticed that you have given due credit to Balwinder Sir at the end of your post. It’s well-copyrighted, nothing official about it though.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen Saxenaji,

    thanks for reminding everyone, particularly the pseudo seculars here on the blog (Prahlad, Sirji, relax. You are a border line case) that India, by an amendment to the constitution, was declared a secular state byt Indira Gandhi. The successor Gandhis have for all practical purposes, washed their hands of the idea of secularism. Now, what is being practised is of the pseudo kind. Salman Rushdie must be one hell of an enlightened PIO.

    Haa, haa, haa (this too borrowed from Vijay Kumar).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen

    That is how secularism is practiced in India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    First. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    In 1998, the Maharashtra Government (Shiv Sena – BJP) deported 3 missionaries from Yavatmal district. “That is how secularism is practiced in India”.

    http://www.strategicnetwork.org/index.php?loc=kb&view=v&id=3649&fto=622&

    To me, both the J&K development and the one in 1998 are wrong, so also countless similar cases.

    What is your take on it?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    I have always said that religion should be practiced at home and state should never
    get involved in such matters. I am surprised that you asked me to give my views on this.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have always appreciated the fact you believe that the religion should be practiced at home. So do I.

    Asking your views was due to “khujli’ which you said afflicts you sometimes (not seen it happen recently though), well something similar happened to me. If it has hurt you, my sincere apologies. That we are both out of it, let others ……

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    These things never hurt me. By the way you brought smile on my face by using my
    favourite word ‘ khujli’

  • shekhar gandotra

    Some blogs back everyone was celeberating conversion from Hindu dharma to their fold.

    Now with this ghinona harkat by Kashmir sarkar ssabki jaan nikal gayi hai. Nobdoy will mention conversion now. Come on Mr Manohar you were talking about your relatives experince. And some others too.

    Only Engrich the pigs **** will say very good. Brhmns ziionism etc.

    This is communal sarkar in J&K. Buddhists daily convert forcibly in Ladakh. But if Christian want to convert, grand Mufti after their Bhu_ _.

    Why this conspiracy of silence by all?

    Let us celeberate conversions now.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    shekhar this loaffer insulted me 3 times.where u were.sleeping.when i awnsered him in his own language,u are crying.probelm is,

    Worshipping lower vertebrates and invertebrates has turned u into brats! There is least element of commonsense i nur hateful belief which is devoid of decency and civility.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    This is communal sarkar in J&K. Buddhists daily convert forcibly in Ladakh. But if Christian want to convert, grand Mufti after their Bhu

    u should remember khandamal orrise.u maccared 100000 christians.
    why u support banning conversion all over india.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shekhar

    You were right about engrich. He just said what you predicted.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vinodji,

    we understand you are an extremely busy editor.

    You were not so even a few months earlier. You used to find time to interact with some of the blokes here, joking, pulling our legs, criticising, admonishing, and even appreciating.

    Kahaan gaye woh din?

    Let me remind you that one Ram Autar, believed by most to be a jihadi plant on your blog, misused the freedom afforded by you for heaping abuse after vile abuse on Hindus, their revered saints, their gods and goddesses. After most of us persistently followed up with you, you, after much trepidation, expelled him from the blog.

    Now, you know better than anybody else, what is happening here; yet you are so inexplicably silent and watching silently.

    Now this Ram Autar, in his new ID engrich, has descended to unspeakable levels of abuse and here is a sample of his vileness:

    “PARVEZ ur mother is fked by dogs when u are born u are true son of *****.u put bottle of whisky in ur *** when come on this blog.dont awnser or awnser why abuse.
    u are pure donkey. ”

    I didn’t want to reproduce this abuse, but I feel this is the only way a slumbering Vinod Sharma can be woken up. Or can it?

    I leave it to your good sense and clean conscience to decide. Do you need Lord Krishna to tell an indecisive Arjun to remind of his duty?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Saab, Your call I think shall be a call in wilderness

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    parvez is a loaffer .he needs worst.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Old Golimarkar had a farm
    He Ha, He Ha, Ha

    On that farm he had a farmer, Balwinder was his name.

    He He here and Ha Ha there.

    He He here, Ha Ha there

    Old Golimarkar had a farm
    He Ha, He Ha, Ha.

    On that farm lived a Jay, Vi Vi was his name

    He He here and Ha Ha there.

    He He here, Ha Ha there

    Old Golimarkar had a farm
    He Ha, He Ha, Ha.

    On that farm worked a BOY, BV was his name

    He He here and Ha Ha there.

    He He here, Ha Ha there

    Old Golimarkar had a farm, isn’t that a shame
    He Ha, He Ha, Ha. Limits its intellectual game

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    A speciman of very lame attempt at humour by kindergarten brained fundoo :)

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vinodji
    ………………Vinodji
    ……………………………..Vinodji

    Please ban ramautar engericj tajender, his vile abuse of Parvez and Rizwans parents would be punishable by law in UK, if his identity was known.
    I want the voices of moderate muslim youth to be heard. I actually come on blog to read these 2boys as Gopi from kerala, and viju from Gurgaon. I dont have to travel TO GET VIEWS FROM 4 CORNERS OF INDIA.

    BAN ENGRICH, via disqus. Ravi, I know now you are behind engerich, that is fact. When you get attacked, then u use engerich to abuse your detractors. I now think even more lowly of you. OTHERWISE RAVI GIVE OPINION ON ENGRIQUES ABUSES, no ducking weaving.
    Vinodji, pl u answer

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    balwinder ,who started.if

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    balwinder it was yr duty to check rizwan from writing bad words to someone who is the age of his grandfather.i did this when he crossed the green line.

    parvez is loaffer needs worst treatment than this.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder

    This abuse of Parvez and Rizwan by Mir jaffar and jai Chand is really shamefull . It remidns of marriages where hijras become Nanga inc ase they are shooeed away !!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    when nakedness draws but a smile:

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This is an attempt to rescue this blog from the frivolities of dimwit bloggers whose cranium has as much functioning neurons , as indian cricket team’s chance of winning in Australia. , whose intellectual limits are defined by pleading to agent Vinod to drive away the villians
    @RajeevS, Aaloke et al
    I had posted few lines about the reasons for conversions in east bengal now bangladesh. I have now realised the theory about Buddhist passivity has MORE HOLES THAN THE SPOUT OF A WATERING CAN. Bit busy now , will elaborate later. But just reflect on Indonesia , and Sri Lanka , one HINDU converted en masse , that they were hindu through and through borne out by the name MAYAVATI SUKARNOPUTRI (cant geyt any clearer than that) , Sri Lanka didn’t convert . Ponder
    Will elaborate later work to do

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Post Script , Also ask yourself why amongst sikhs 30-35% are converts from SC/ST , also why Hindus converted to sikhism

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    U.S. shuts down file-sharing website Megaupload

    http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/internet/article2815112.ece

    One of the world’s largest file-sharing sites was shut down on Thursday, and its founder and several company executives were charged with violating piracy laws, federal prosecutors said.

    ………

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Whereas Gen V K Singh’s case is now before the SC but the govrnment continues with its campaign to descredit the General thru friendly sections of the Media and ( we have some idea about them..)
    It is being touted that Gen V K Singh had given an “undertaking” to accept 1950 as the year of birth and now he has gone back on it. Strange… Instead of the evidentiary document as per Rules i.e the matriculation certificate . Can “undertakings” or “statements” of the concerned employee overrule the document submitted by him and which has not been challenged by either party . Hypothetically If Gen V K Singh had stated that his date of birth is 1952 , could the government have accepted that.
    …..Now the whispers that I have heard. That Gen V K Singh had been disagreeing to certain deals of procurement and his Succesor , in case he retires on the basis of 1950 , is expected to clear them. St Anthony , like the good PM, is only a quiet non playing spectator.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Ravi,

    Let me first concede my lack of English language knowledge and its articulation. You definitely are able to articulate your point of view much better. However I checked once again my earlier post. I found I have used “You” in case of “Argument” as also for “Discussion”. There definitely was no such debating strategy. I am actually not capable of one. My English language can be considered literal translation of how we speak in Indian languages.. Please rest assured on this front. However as you would agree, these are but small technicalities which can always be excused.

    During discussion of our topic in consideration, I have tried to bring every one here back to the specific point. I have not discussed Muslim Backwardness and their requirement of Education in isolation. It has been discussed in reference to our topic of ,” Should reservations or benefits be available to Muslims on the basis of their religion”. Now in this I don’t have to discuss what is being done by “Orthodox Jews” or “Jehovah’s witness”. I don’t have to discuss what is percentage of girl students in Malaysia ( If it is high in Malaysia, then results also must be better).

    Regarding your reasoning on Regression, well it may emanate from any source, but as long as it is there, we will have problems. We have to find solution for this regression and not let it remain and justify it. What best cure of regression than Education. Regarding your view on agitation due to deep rooted Islamophobia, well to some extent you may be right. But , it is fear, and not phobia of Islam ( phobia as per my limited knowledge is fear of something which in actual is not there or fear is disproportionate to actual). Fear of what it can do to a civilized society if regression in it is not eliminated or curtailed. But then are these fears unreal? Have’nt we faced them for last 1000 years in India and 1400 years in world.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Aaloke

    Clarity of expression is one thing and clarity of thought is quite something else, you have bags full of both.

    Now this may come as a surprise to you but I am well versed in Hindi, if that is your preferred mode of expression, then I am happy to accept your posts in Hindi. I would have over-looked all grammatical idiosyncrasies, if it wasn’t for the fact that moments after your post was published, an orderly queue formed of those who saw my discomfiture in it. My first paragraph was aimed more at them than it was at you.

    By widening the perspective, I was attempting to look at the UNDERLYING cause for social backwardness. Deeply ingrained secular social issues, sometimes manifest themselves and are recognised as religious issues. By citing some examples of both; other religions and of other backward societies (countries), I was hoping to take the argument to its quintessential core. I do believe that I have not got there yet.

    Now let us debate the real issue. As I mentioned before that USA and 3 Commissions in India have reported that Affirmative Action can be targeted towards Religions. Now that by itself does not make the idea good or bad. But it does mean that experts who were entrusted with the task of designing affirmative actions – across three different continents – after detailed and very careful considerations, have concluded that religion is an acceptable basis of government sponsored affirmative action. In other words I am willing to give these experts preference in helping me make my own mind on the issue. Opposition to religion based affirmative action here is just another manifestation of their Islamophobia. I am convinced that their reactions would have been quite different, had the benefits been going to the Hindus.

    I have no difficulty in supporting Religion Bases Reservations targeted at Muslims, because not only they but our country as a whole stands to benefit from such an action.

    I am totally opposed to any form of Religious Regression and/or anti Modernistic attitude, irrespective of which religion is its cause or inspiration. If India or Indian Muslim’s were to resist Wahabisation of our citizens then I will support them. I do not believe that Religion based Reservation should exclude similar reservations for other SC/OBC communities.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    USA doe not have any affirmative action plan based on religion. In fact, the law is against any religious based preference/plans. The law is clear – favor the best qualified, do not reject any body based on religion/language/race etc,

    India should not have any religion based preferences. All religions require equal treatment/contempt. The only base for any reservation should be the economic status; and that too only to create an “equal opportunity”, and not to dilute.

    You have to stop resorting to “islamophobia” whenever others have different , better solutions. Illogical view such as yours results in Islamophobia.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    It appears that you may have missed one my previous posts on this. Here is an extract.

    This is common practice in the USA where the Civil Rights Act 1964 and several subsequent court judgments have ensured that right-wing reactionary forces do not succeed in eroding this morally defensible position.

    Often the criteria used for inclusion in affirmative programmes are race, ethnicity, religion, disability and age. While the implementation of such actions vary from state to state in the USA and from country to country in Europe, the US supreme court on a number of occasions has reaffirmed the constitutionality of such programmes.

    Well as I said, you have your views about reservations, I am counting the US Government, Several US Supreme Court decisions, and 3 seperate Commissions in India, who support Religion Based targeted Affirmative Action.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Great debate.

    Carry on Aaloke & Ravi. I hope a queue does not form again or have I spoken too soon?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Aaloke,

    If one compares Asian Muslims and Hindus in UK, he would definitely find a difference. But reason for both community’s migration have been different. Most of the Muslims were employed for cotton mills and construction work decades ago (and their children). Hindus who have gone there are professionals. So, there is also a class difference. Comparison between the communities in USA could be better (as US has not allowed low skilled workers). I agree, percentage of Indian Muslims in US would be very less (Some percentage in Indian population, which itself is some percentage in American population). But if we ignore the numbers and compare, it might give a true reflection of performance of two groups with same class but different religion.

    @Ravi,
    You mean reservation to “all Muslims”? By the way, what should be the intention of reservation? As a response the social injustice(historical wrongs) met by a community (not just Muslims) before we were born OR a means for the unprivileged class who do not have equal opportunities “today”? If it is first then I don’t think, any amount of reservation for any number of years can make up for what has been done to their ancestors. But then, does the current generation should inherit right and wrongs of their ancestors? What is the connection of today’s Brahmin with Manusmriti, today’s Indian Muslim with Mahmud of Ghazni? If it is for the second reason, then why “all” ?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi

    You listed all those countries such as Pakistan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia etc… So, why are most of those countries backward? They have 100% reservations for Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Not sure what your point is.

    There are many non-muslim coutries that are “economically backward” in Europe. They are Christian.

    Happy to discuss if you eleborate on the point you wish to discuss.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    he is biggest liar of this blog.like any other brhmnst he is myopic with closed mind.dont want to learn.i have awnsered him.80%of muslim countries has education 95%plus.under muslim rule literacy level was 93%.when brhmn british ruled finished in 1947 level was 8%.under 3000 years of hindu rule edcation was property of brhmns.even swarasati their godesses of knowledge was illetrate.

    muslims are pushed to poverty through dallals and their agents.poverty brings backwardness.finish poverty(which they are not prepared)things will automatically improved.anyhow i have given him detailed awnser below.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    gopi,

    u should worry for india which holds 134 position ln list of nations with 49%women enemic.kerala became poorest area under brhmnst who were hiding trillions of dollars in their temples,leaving common people dying in hunger.prosperity came when they went to muslim countries.

    5%creamy layer over there is also advance like in india.they are far more europeaised than indian.indians are advance externally from inside u are same.with closed mind not ready to accept anything new.always conspiring against others.
    The latest strategy of the Brahmin-Nair ruling clique is to “unite the Hindus” against Muslims and Christians by rousing “anti-minority” hatred. Syrians may be Christians but they never confront the Brahmins. Because blood is thicker than water.

    gopi just for ur information,

    algeria which is neglible as compare to india has 46 universities with 95%literacy and double per capita income of india.
    On September 2006, UNESCO awarded Morocco amongst other countries such as Cuba, Pakistan, India and Turkey the “UNESCO 2006 Literacy Prize”.[97

    saudia is developing very fast in field of education in riyadh i saw a university being built at the cost of 15 billion dollars.they have 2 universities among first 200 in the world.they are spending colossal amout of money on education like united arab emirate.

    gopi u are an rss propagandist come on blog to spread lies and hatred.u nairs are planning to convert kerala in somalia of india.this is what imerialism and zoinism wants to have foothold in india.

    u brhmns are destroying our primary education system.in hinduism education is sole monopoly of brhmns.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    saudia is developing very fast in field of education in riyadh i saw a university FOR GIRLS being built

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    u r right

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rizwan and Parvez

    You guys are the future of India. Just blog on. And in case some trolls abuse,
    Dont worry guys !! just remember that

    HIJRAS BEOME NANGA FIRST !!

    On this blog two hijras becoma nanga when they lost out !

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    .what a crocodile tears.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    gadhon ke sar pe seengh hote to tum bara singhe zaroor hote.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Fake Ram Autar abuses Parvez
    He wants to ape the gora Angrez
    abusing others he has made his businezz
    and like all jihadis yeh hai bada bad-tameez

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Absolutely. !! I He abused Rizwan as well.

    Mir jaffar and Jai Chand are not comfortable with forward lookign Muslims on the move. This way the duo loses the sikkas thrown at hijras on social occasions

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    why u dont write something informative on this blogg.ur crocodile tears will not immpress anybody.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Shoeb

    As usual a brilliant post. I concur with you that the Congressis want to exclude Muslims as a vote bank. I think they would end up creating dissensions in society if we divide India like an Italian pizza which the Congress wants.

    The correct way would be to earmark scholorships, schools and subsideis for Muslim areas and then also allow Muslims to qualify in the backward quota which would be class based.

    I would love to hear more from you om tech incubation. Your last post on technolgy got my ears up. Maybe some innovating CM in India should take it up. Ultimately we need more of the 12-13% growth rate and nto this path which the Congress is taking us on …

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay-
    The two I visited had common structural/funding architecture. Most of the funding came from state or federal govt, sometimes also funded by the local govt (city); a small part by local investors, and a small part by the university. Most of the initiatives/products were outgrowth of projects the young entrepreneur had undertaken in his University, wit the Professors still involved. Working space, infrastructure etc was provided by a common administrative mechanism, at a cut rate rent.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Prahlad

    now you got to answer this one seriously. Most Congressis wer celeberating Rushdie’ protest as a BJP thing . I am listing out some facts.

    a) The writers at jaipur feel the Congress manipulated this for votes in elections

    b) Abhishek Manu Singhvi just announced that “the law will take its course” when Hair Kunzreu and Jeet Thayill read out excerpts from Satanic verses

    c) Right NOW, on TV MIM and Deobandis are chest thumping that they drove Rushdie out !

    So Prahlad ji will you still say BJP?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Vijay

    Thanks for the kind words. And the funny ones !

    No, I am not afraid of vile abuse. As college students we too have choice repartees in our quiver. However it would only sully the blog. So I have refrained from saying somthing about the fundoos’ family or their relation with their dog.

    I am more worried about Rizwan who seems to be younger than me. Unfortunate that the fundoo said all that about his dad. But then the fanatics stand exposed for being the straitjacket on our minds.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez

    Look forward to your perspectives … U, Viju, Aaloke, Shoeb, Prahlad, Rizwa etc are our future hope…

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    gopi ,.i am waiting ur awnser on 7 points about 26/11

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thank You sir

    I always look forward to your scholorly blog comments. I hope yoou appreciate that being from a minority reliogus community I am more intersted in a secular India and would not want divisions of the country along sectarian lines.

    I think the hypocrisy which afflicts some members of our relgious community is a barrier on us Muslims achieving full poetential as Human beings, Indians, scientists and scholors as well as businessmen

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi-
    Neither the US Govt nor the US supreme court has sanctioned a religious (or race) based reservations/affirmative action program in USA.
    The only stipulation is that nobody can be discriminated based on religion, race etc. The impetus for this 1964 Civil rights act was the outright discrimination in colleges and jobs and voting based on colour, with blacks denied opportunities just because they are blacks.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb,
    It is very difficult to push your logic to this SIKH. When I see this SIKH wailing justifying Islamic causes, I get very emotional. Kitni Mahaan Atma hai yeh Ravi, the Sikh.

    He is true Mahatma who has never ever expressed grief over 1984 sikh massacre but has been expressing grief over muslim hardships from Chechenya to Paletine to Iraq to Pakistan to Godhra to Kashmir…

    He will be remembered as most honest soul on this blog. May his soul rest in peace.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    rajiv,

    ravi is the most rational while u are most irrational person.challange his
    claims not his religion or personality.you have split personality.sometime very good and rational a well.there are millions of sikhs like him who speak truth.hate is mental disease.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    May be I am mistaken, but I do not think so.

    I think the act laid down the foundations for “fair play” and its implementation, which varies from one state to another, has led to programmes to ensure “fair share”.

    My view is based upon the “fair-share” objective. British Police does give some preferances in recruitemnt to Muslim candidates, for obvious reasons.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-
    No, there is no “fair share” concept, other than “fair process” concept. .

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    In the UK, there are targets for some Government departments which they achieve through positive discriminations, BTW this has recently even included the MI5

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Shoeb is right that in US it is fair process concept.
    You cannot refuse to appoint a person because of
    his religion, sex or color. Even if I want to rent out
    my appartment, I cannot refuse for the above reason.
    He can take me to court if I do that.

    Ravi Reply:

    Agreed.

  • Ravi

    Vinay

    Just to be absolutely clear, my argument is neither to do with India or with Muslims. That would be parochial and I am not one. My focus was to rationally look at if Religion can be used – among other criteria or on its own – as a basis for targeting affirmative action.

    My conclusion is that I see no reasons as to why not.

    However, since you have asked specific questions it would be cowardly to avoid answering them. Political considerations aside, the function of any affirmative action, anywhere in the world is a managerial one. If a government observes – for what so ever reasons – that a certain section of the population is lagging behind, then by instituting affirmative measures it is acting responsibly. In Indian context Dalit’s, OBCs and Muslims for one reason or another have not made as much progress as would be beneficiary for our society. To correct this, affirmative actions are put in place. What the argument is, should one or any of them be targeted towards Muslim’s. I say no reason why not.

    In UK single mothers with babies are given preference for subsidised social housing and in large conurbations this rule disproportionally benefits Black Young women and generates resentment among non-white married young women. Marriage, as you and I understand is not nearly as common in the Caribbean as it is in Europe and India. This is recognised as a legacy of sub-culture which developed during Slavery. Right wing reactionaries in the UK oppose any affirmative action for single mums, because it disproportionately helps Black’s more than it does white women. Their argument is that we should put pressure on them to conform to the supposed norm of 2 parent family. 300 years after slavery was abolished the sub-culture of absentee father still stubbornly stick to West Indian Families. Viv Richards is just one such example.

    This type of affirmative action is not a long winded apology for slavery, but is there to ensure that the CHILD has a roof over its head. This prevents disadvantage being transmitted from one generation to the next. This analogy in my view also holds good for Dalit’s, OBCs and Muslims in India.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    UK- Indians vs Pakistanis””””””””””

    Vinay, sorry buddy got to correct you. You said in UK, most Pakistani immigrants were factory workers while Indians were high class professionals and that explains why Indians are succesful. You obviously do not live in UK for you would not have made this major error.

    1. Huge swathes of UK took poor, semi-literate Indians from Punjab and some from Gujrat- Wolverhampton, Coventry, Southall, Wembley, Birmingham, Ilford, East Ham etc. Their success story was STUPENDOUS- within 1 generation most had moved into university education, businesses and well paid jobs.

    2. For 20 years, Indian and Chinese kids are on the very top in national GCSE results, even leaving whites behind.

    3 Sadly, the Pakistani areas have seen ghettoisation- undereducation, crime and Islamic fundamentalisation has followed- Bradford, Whitechapel, Rusholme, Leeds, Oldham, Luton, etc

    4. Yes, these has been a pocket of affluent Asians who made fortunes in East Africa and came to uk, both Indians and Pakistanis, or professionals like me- who will obviously do well.

    5. Indian muslims particularly from Gujrat do much better than Pakistanis
    DR MISHRA, YORKSHIRE

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    mishrajee,

    terrotery which was given to pakistan was given to pakistan was the most bckward area and poor area of india.in punjab hindus were filthy rich but muslims were extremely poor and illetrate.other area like sindh balochistan and frontier was worst.that gap is visible there as well.education is spreading fast.i know a taxi driver in sbudhabi whose son is dsc in london/highest degree in medicine.being pathan he does not want to eat from money earned by his son so he still drives taxi.things are changing fast.u should keep this while comparing.nothing to do with islam.sikhs and punjabis were rewarded
    by britishers for suppressing freedom movements of india.RSS SHAKHA KEE HISTORY PAR EK COUPLET HAI,

    Tumhen le de ke saari daastaN mein yaad hai itna + Ke Aalamgir hundu kush tha zalim tha sitamgar tha
    THOUGH PRESIDED OVER INDIA WHOSE ECONOMY WAS 25%OF WORLD.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Dr Mishra

    The problems with Pakistani Muslims would in some manner be similar to those faced by many of us, Indian Muslims. That of victim mentality and ghettoisation. However as a doctor you would know better that this has nothing to do with any genetic lack of IQ– as all humans are born equal– but of radical elders who want us to follow a predefined path of religious closet mentality.

    I would like to know how many of the other communities you mention, are deeply religious and are unwillingly to challenge the commandments in their religious texts or challenge the opinions of the elders who guide or misguide them.

    The cutting edge of knowledge and enterprise always requires flexibility of thought and action. Unfortunately for us Muslims, we have this huge burden of Orthodoxy and close minds retarding us from movement. Minds who only seek answers in religious texts and abusing Muslims who stray away from it. One example exists on this blog too.

    Still, I have hope that the change in Mid East would help Indian Muslims start viewing problems in the Indian context rather than viewing those Mid East countries as perfect Nizam-e- Mustapha to be followed to the T.

    Sorry, if this sounded like my class room presentation !

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    TAnother PORKY from SMUG Mishra. The word INDIAN needs to be used carefully. here have been several kind of immigration to UK.The Gujratis MOSTLY are from UGANDA AND KENYA , they were MIDDLE CLASS to start with , AND FUNDAMENTAL IS THEY LET THEIR WOMEN FOLK GO OUT TO WORK, COUPLED WITH THEIR GENETIC MAKE UP , DHANDHA. This is why they are the most succesful group. Bengalis from India ARE 98% PROFESSIONAL probably 10000-15000. They have VERY VERY HIGH PROFILE PEOPLE.Mihir Bose is probably NO1 sport journalist was Editor in BBC sports. Pallav Ghosh is Science Editor of BBC.Prof Dasgupta is prof of Economics in Cambridge .
    Next is SIKHS.They are several kind, The FAUJI , are the ones who served as CANNON FODDER for the British Army , settled in UK when the war ended.
    Next is some sikhs from Kenya , middle class , and lastly and substantially from the RURAL HAMLETS OF PUNJAB , poor illiterate sikhs are the ones that pandit Mishra is referring to.Compared with Pakistanis(if we take away middle class professional pakistanis eg, DOCTORS etc) they have done better, BUT NO WHERE NEAR THE GUJRATIS.Also MOST SIKHS ARE IN BUILDING TRADE , which saw an astronomical growth.
    Bangladeshis were MOSTLY sailors in merchant ship who simply landed when the ship moored.They were the most illiterate, thus their children did worse.
    An educated Bangladeshi doctor’s son is inevitably a doctor.
    GUJRATI MUSLIMS IN UK ARE AT PAR WITH THEIR HINDU PEERS, they have incredible support system with the AGA KHAN TRUST.
    The sikhs have the most DRINK PROBLEM , DIVORCE AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.
    See the film PROVOKED starring Bahu Bacchan
    Anybody trying to challenge will be pelted with a shower of data

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    before partition area which is now pakistan was most backward area of india.was recruiting ground of soldier for british army.except punjab there was no university.sindh balochistan of nwfp had no degree colleges.bangladesh same.muslim bengal has taken u-turn.their creamy layer is filthy rich and common bengalee being adventurous can be found everywhere in the world
    in large numbers remitting 15billion dollars has changed the scenerio.they are good manager of their wealth and very hard workers.i have 2 begalee hindu foreman from bangladeh.they are darling of my company,praised and respectd
    by all because of their hard work and honesty..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The only major point you have studiously avoided is your own journey to UK with a fake degree in a Somalian pirate ship along with Bangladeshi stealth-immigrants.

    Kindly throw some light too on how you managed to land a job in the british Health Service.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    An Indian-American entrepreneur has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for using his perfume distribution business to launder millions of dollars for Mexican drug cartels.
    51-year-old Vikram Datta, who was found guilty in September last year on money-laundering charges, was sentenced in Manhattan federal court in New York.

    “Datta used his perfume business to remove the stench from Mexican drug cartel money, and now he will pay a steep price for his crimes,” Manhattan US Attorney Preet Bharara said

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Enrich

    What are you trying to prove out here? That Indians are crooks?

    Did you not notice that the US attorney Preet Bharara too was an Indian. And you too claim to be an Indian, a claim which I will accept even when others call you a Pakistani ISI agent, because I know there are some India haters, like you, in my community

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    Ignoring him is the only solution.

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    Ignoring works, but not in the way you imagine.

    I have recently grown my list of people I will ignore.

    I feel a lot happier and the blog is that tiny bit healthier than it used to be when I used to join in abusive point scoring.

    For this change I thank Vinay and Gopi. Manohar, got there before I did. I am a slower learner than he is.

    engrich Reply:

    .they say we are criminal and baddys.so they should know that they are every where.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Shan…..the thought had also crossed my mind…..but I have given up interacting with Dr Mishra, I was hoping that you would point out the simplicity of the division.

    You did.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    This -Tu-Tu, Main-main is continuing in this blog. may be this is the fate/ attraction of this blog.
    Drive on 405 North in California is one of the most beautiful drive. US is progressing with leap and bounds and here we waste our energy in arguments. Rightly, we have been titled as Argumentative Indians.
    If, in place of talking, at Chaay adda, Daru Khana a, Bus Stop and all the places where people work or should work, then they will certainly contribute to progress of India.
    Lot of divisive agenda is still going on in place of constructive suggestions.
    Best of luck to all of you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And the biggest culprit of them all is ……………..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra has already named them…..others are excused.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Pankaj

    A huge change is happening in India, but mostly outside government ambit. The forces which oppose change and want to divide society along caste and religous lines are so obvious on this blog. You, yourself exposed the corruption and communalism of Digvinash Singh some blogs back.

    The posive energy of the country is sapped by these negative forces who want things to remain static and want India to salute Harkat Ul Ansar and corruption.

    But the basic goodness of India will prevail and these Ravans will be demolished.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Viju

    yes..the eternal India..the optimistic India…anchored in its glorious past, springing to a vibrant future…

    India was the richest country during emperor Akbar; during whose time people lived without any religious prejudice, arts and crafts flourished.. Goldman Sachs model projects India to come out on the top in 2040s..Since communal and societal harmony is an important ingredient for achieving and keeping economic success, I assume their model must be predicting the demise of those divisions

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Amen.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope these divisions disappear. But seeing the fundamantalist rants of one or two bloggers one has a feeling that they are vested interests wantin to dvide India.

    Unfortunately few politicians of India are fighting elections on basis of performance and removing sectarian divides.

    engrich Reply:

    India was the richest country during emperor Akbar

    again u are nisinforming blogger.during aurangzeb period india was biggest and richest.

    engrich Reply:

    communal harmony was disturbed by savarkar and tilak.first communal riot took place in 1890 in sitara not in muslim rule.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Agree with you Vijay. missed all of you but work pressure is huge.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Guys,

    Nothing is happening, everybody seems to be busy. Meanwhile read this.

    Electricity went off in a small town. After three days, some time at night a
    frustrated lady called electricity board and said :

    Aaj to kisi aadmi ko bhejo, mein teen din se mombati use kar rahi hoon.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mohan

    your jokes are cetainly ‘A’ Class !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan,

    you have effortlessly moved into mild pornography.

    Here is a harmless joke, clean and funny:

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Good one.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Dr Pankaj welcome back. Sadly blogs all over the world and comments on you tube etc do get dominated by trolls and abuse. So no need to think this tendency is limited to Indians, haha.

    Parvez- educationally 3 communities are at bottom of the pile- Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Blacks. Reasons differ for each. You asked an interesting question- any other community here that is religioulsy too orthodox- answer is yes- ORTHODOX JEWS.

    Pocketed in areas like Golders Green and Stamford Hill, they are ultra religious, have very large families- 7/8 kids- and many are employed as ‘theology students’. Many therefore are very working class, buffered by the very generous benefits system of UK and also propped up in many ways by the wealthy Jewish society.

    But the one difference with Pakistanis is- while many do live APART from mainstream white society, they are not AT ODDS with them. Hope that made sense PARVEZ

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    ps- I was distressed to see the abuse that you and Rizwan have picked up from Ravi and / or engrich , either now or before. Pl ignore them completely, we all enjoy your posts. Last month RAVI had ripped into L Mirza, pointless this attempt at exclusion of moderate muslim voices

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    doctor u are least knowledged person on this blog.what else u can say.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I find this pretty interesting. Jews and Muslims are supposed to be at each others throats and both are orthodox.

    What is the status of their women regarding education and freely mingling with others in schools and colleges?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    All muslims and jews are not at each others throats. Only those who
    claim that they are ‘ pure ‘ muslims or ‘ pure ‘ jews. .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I thik that is a fair comment ! I also quaifed my statement by saying “supposed.”

    engrich Reply:

    why forget sacred hindus.

    engrich Reply:

    fight is against occupation not for religion.pure jews and pure muslim are religious not political.jews and muslims were living as friend from thousand years.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr. Mishra,

    Agree with you. It happens with all the blogs. We will always find few people
    who will always use abusive language for no reason and will never contribute
    in a meaningful way. We have to learn to ignore such people.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Dr Mishra

    Enrix’s abuse does not bother me. Students all over the world know much classier abuse ! My doing so would only spoil the blog’s intellectual level.

    However as someone said, “Hijra Nanga ho gaya hai”, I would just add, “Higra nanga ho gaya hai aur gaali bhi de raha hai…”

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    However as someone said, “Hijra Nanga ho gaya hai”, I would just add, “Higra nanga ho gaya hai aur gaali bhi de raha hai…”
    A Like Reply

    son of a ***** keep yr a$$ shut.jahil.otherwise wait for another.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Parvez/Dr Mishra

    There is a huge problem/movement in Israel from orthodox Jews. They are at odds with the government on the roles of women, going back to the Torah etc.
    Surprisingly, a segment of them are also against Zionism — insisting the state of Israel should be handed over to the Palestinians..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Interesting. Orthodoxy and closed minds are poison everywhere.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Now is’nt that a surprise

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    parvez u have not seen the world.muslims are poor but not orthodox.have u ever seen pakistan i pm or arab sheikh visiting places of worship.in india and isreal it is common.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    gopi,there are 2 types of jews iddish speaking and hebrew speaking.hebrew is
    african language while iddish is european.it is same case of india zoinist are calling themselve jew.while they are enemy of jews.semitic jews are shudras or worse.whil they are inhabitant of this land.
    position of women is very low..jews came from poland want isreal to be orthodox state but russian and american jews want it to be modern democratic state.against paletanian both are united.all over world they have negative growth but by average paleatanians family have 8 child/family.most of the russian jews have gone back to russia.cannot bear apartheid system based on hatred.isreal has big segregration problem.just to avoid these contradictions always remain at war with someone.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    semitic jews were happy with their arab brothers.nearly every jew gave application to gen.balfour opposing their arrival.european jews made them shudr upon arrival.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    zoinists are the enemy of jews they brought them to isreal so that they can be easily killed,en bloc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sharad Pawar may be appear to be mumbling whenever he chooses to speak. But, when he chooses to ’speak out’, he makes a lot of sense.

    Now, PAWAR SAYS UPA II IS CRUMBLING
    —————————————————————————–

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/public-perception-upa2-will-crumble-says-pawar/902190/

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well, he has been looting for ever; he will dessert UPA, join BJP, become senior minister in the NDA ministry, and continue to loot.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I mean he sees the writing on the wall..he will partner with NDA for the next Lok Sabha elections… BJP can learn how to lash away money, how not to get caught etc from this scum

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    bjp is party of finacial thugs.by and large they are bussines man not politicians.u will find them more corrupt than congress.
    ur assesment that nda will be back may be right.

    attack on parliament akhshyadham and gujrat riot was their work.i hope this time they will repeat their show.

  • Anonymous

    So, what about this assassin story regarding the cancellation of Rushdie visit?

    Is this a part of “get the votes from UP anyway you can”.. that “my father banned the book even before Ayatollah Khoemini, and now my party prevented him from visiting his homeland honouring your sensitivity”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think Rushdie was referring to the two fundoos who stalk this blog for taking a supari on behalf of LeT !! :) :)

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    it was part of excersize to keep an anti-muslim news permanently on board.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    See above, my response to Ravi.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ==============================================================
    ~~~ MANI SILENCER, DIGVINASH AND dunce YUVRAJ killed UPA 2~~~~
    ==============================================================

    @ Shenoy and Gopi

    I have always maintained that the grave of the three murderers of UPA 2 should have the 3 names in golden letters. Mani silencer the poison supplier, Digvinash the administrator and Yuvraj the dunce who thought to look good he needed to make MMS look bad.

    Well Sharad Pawar has just broken that story now. Mani Aiyar hid his failure as SPorts Minister by repeatedly shouting 70,000 crores looted when the loot was probably only 3-4000 crore.

    Digvinash makes India look weak by trying to absolve terrorists and LeT while eulogising Osamaji.

    Dunce Yuvraj feels that it is okay to demolish MMS and development just to come to power.

    Everything looks a failure for UPA-2 becasue fo these 3 caroon characters.

    Maybe the cartoon channel needs them more than India…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Viju-

    What is the motivation for Yuvraj to demolish Dr Singh? Isnt the PMship for his taking or is he totally stupid?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    They were building up ground to shunt out MMS in case he put up his hand up for UPA3 . There was also a feeling in Digvinash to cut down MMS, chidu and Pranabda to make way for himself, as he probably feels that the Gaffe prone Yuvraj may back out because of nerves.

    In fact there was a move to get Yuvraj onto the chair before the end of UPA 2, with mummy’s consent to make him get a feel of things. Good that failed.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    they are fighting a loosing battle.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Viju
    You talked about self interested groups perpetuating religious/caste divisions standing in the way of progress…

    We have to thank the British for this technique of divide and rule.. They were really surprised that Jhansi Rani Lakshmi Bhai, Khan Bahadur, Tanya Tope, Begum Hazrat etc will join together and fight against them. (btw Jhansi Rani was only around 25 or so when she led the troop!) Ever since then the British was focused on destroying this unity and pitching one against the other.

    And they went on it scientifically, collecting data, feeding data. All the famous emperors in India’s history took the count of its people. Akbar did, Rajaraja Chola did. But their count was about men, women, young, old.

    One of the early initiatives after the direct rule was imposed after the East India company was relieved of administartion was a census of India. 1880 was the first time in the history of India, in its long lineage of great (and not so great) emperors, that the citizens were counted and categorized on religion. In fact, religion was the first question on the enumeration form.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    We have to thank the British for this technique of divide and rule

    but nobody can defeat brhmns in this tactics.ems calld kerala,the land of vedas.which vivekanand called,lunatic asylum.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    egrich

    shu- up. EMS was a great leader.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ems was great brhmn i accept,

    but ist it not true thatSri Narayana guru revolted against Brahmins and established his own Shiva temple all over Kerala with Ezhava priests. Yet the Brahmins could not be defeated.
    They gradually managed to fool the oppressed Ezhavas by using the marxist mantra. The innocent Ezhavas simply fell flat though the community was never allowed to occupy the chief minister’s chair.
    The person responsible for fooling the Ezhavas and making monkeys out of this innocent but unthinking community is the “Modern Shankara”, EMS Namboodiripad.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    It is always nice to get a historical input from you.

    I have a strong feeling that we have ended up accentuating caste and religious divides AFTER independence. We were 35 crores after partition. With 17 crores of the so called Dalits.

    Now we are 122 crores and claim that another 65 crores of backward and Dalits have been added with thousand years of victimisation?

    Will the next 20 crores added to our populace also be those who suffer from 1000 years of slavery?

    How can this be ever true.

    It is a failure of economic growth policies which can bring about rapid changes of population interaction and social mobility.

    It is a failure to demolish caste as a social factor. In case the education system made fun of casteism, demolished casteism, pointed out its flaws, 80% of Indians would have got over it.

    It is a failure of politcal policies which chooses to divide people on basis of religious votebanks. No other democracy does it. Only fake democracies and dictatorships want to divide people along religious lines.

    In the end, all civilisations need a motivation. Earlier it used to be for spreading a religion– Buddhism in Ashoka’s time, Hinduism and Christianity, followed by Islam. Then it was for the glory of the Empire– the British, Dutch and Spanish and what not.

    And the last century was capitalism, America, coke and Mcdonalds and God.

    Maybe someone has to give this country a vision for which we all aspire for.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Why I said this was because I during course of work have to interact with politicians once a while. And I know the small ness of their vision.

    It is THEIR Mohalla, (NO demolition for encroachment here)

    THEIR colony (put my name in the colony park since I gave the funds from MPLAD)

    THEIR votebank ( Arre’ give the drawings to the Jat/Gujjar/Pandit/muslim contractor depending upon whom their sectarian mate is or from whom they get kickbacks)

    This was when two or three colonies requested my team to design their parks on a voluntary basis

    When I was about to leave school and the hey days of Mandal Commission agitation was on Devi Lal ( Deputy prime Minister of India) gave a simple formula. Check out the census. Then divide all college and employment avenues EXACTLY as per caste and religion .
    Everyone will be happy…

    Unfortunately that is the extent of vision many of our so called grass roots leaders have.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    This will automatically stop, once people stop voting on
    religion/caste basis. Education is need of the hour and it should happen immediately.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Yes, Congress has excelled in the British art of divide and rule.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    u nairs were the brutal arms of imperialism in kerala.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    It is a shame that the GOI was unable to protect the Jaipur Literary festival and Salman Rushdie from the Deobandi thugs.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The jihadi criticising the fountainhead!

    Is there a turf war going on?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    IMO, the likely scenario is that the Government (read Congress) ‘released the story/security alert’ about the assassins being on the loose, to dissuade Salman Rushdie from visiting India.

    This way they have ‘killed’ two birds with one stone. Appear to be liberal (not opposing the visit, in any case, legally they could have not stopped him) and also pandering to the loony elements to protect their “vote bank’.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    A very probable scenario

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well, Rajiv Gandhi banned the “Satanic Verses” even before Ayatollah khoemini banned it. That act won kudos for him/congress from the fundamentalist extremist Ahmed Deedat in 1989.

    Congress must be calculating that the Jaipur “no show” willl help them in UP.

    They do not know a silent majority, or a significant minority such as Rizwans, Parvez, Shoeb etc exists. One would think that Bihar elections demonstrated what “backward” people want and how they vote .

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Please note, having asked for your advise, I am adhering to it.

    Not exactly delivering a cleaner and more enjoyable blog though. Is it??

    engrich Reply:

    ban of book was right.u should not be allowed to hurt the feelings of others under cover of freedom of speech.but unfortunately this provided publicity to this evil man.

    u are a rss man.hate filled person.u will embrace anything which hurts the muslims.that is why modi is HINDU HIRDAY SAMRAT.

    engrich Reply:

    fundamentalist extremist Ahmed Deedat

    GOPI WHAT IS MEANING FUNDAMENTALIST TELL ME.ahmad deedat was a religious man.muslim cannot be fundamentalist.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Banning the book did not help the Congress much. With other issues – bofors, etc., they lost the ensuing elections. IMO, so playing hanky-panky in Jaipur may not be a factor for the Congres, except ina very few pockets.

    engrich Reply:

    most probably rss wanted to kill him and put blame on muslims.this is election time.ayodhya mudda is dead.even bjp mp from ayodhya was cursing bjp/rss for halting progress of ayodhya on this issue.anna has gone.they need some stunt for election.muslims hate him but dont want to kill him.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are wrong in your reasoning. The RSS has never been known to own any ‘misdeed’, hence they inflicting any harm to Salman Rushdie will not help the BJP.

    engrich Reply:

    for short time it will help.provocating the muslims and inciting the hindus is name of the game.these indian jews are master of this game.kept india tense on ram mandir for 9 years.now people of ayodhya have taken the things in their hands.the entry of ramgundaas is now bannd.brhmns never go to attend ram lila as ravan was brhmn.how they fooled the india u can see.
    only stock exchange blast costed india 85 billion.which will be 850 billions now.this is brhmnst are hurting india.bloggers hate me whn i say that.

    muslims hate rushdie for writing bad words about our prophet but dont want to kill him.from 20 days this brhmncl toilet paper is keeping in the news show their satanic intentions.muslims are 20%of india .is it neccesary to hurt them.but this is called zoinism or satanic brhmnsm.

    engrich Reply:

    police has cleared that there was no threat to his live.if the same thing is written about gurunanak jee or vivekanand will sikhs or hindus not curse him.awnser.
    this was a game to keep an anti-muslim news as main headline.if goverment had slightest of respect for muslims,they should not have issued visa to him.
    india and world has millions of educated people better than him.but brhmnst dont leave any chance to divide society and create atmosphere condusive to rss politics.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Your question is wrong. It is not that GOI were unable to protect, they did
    not wanted to protect. This was just their continuation of appeasing policy.
    Elections around the corner, how could they miss such an opportunity?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    That is cynical, but probably has a large element of truth in it.

    I would have liked Salman to have been allowed to attend a Literary event un molested. Not letting him to do that damages the kind of India I hope for.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    The problem is that the kind of India we hope for is sadly ruled
    by the people who have a different agenda. They want THEIR
    kind of India – divided on caste/religion, poor and uneducated -
    which protects their share of vote bank.

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    I am sure you are familiar with my views on that.

    Vote Bank politics is a universal reality, which is practised by ALL the parties in India.

  • Anonymous

    open letter to ravi from PARVEZ AND RIZZY BABY
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    dude we dont get worked up when Mishraji quotes muslim ghettoes in uk and dont take digs at Parvez saying he has poisoned mind. Last year Balwinder uncle and Dr Pankaj confirmed the same. You dont live in India so you dont know something called Sachar report, this is a stark fact we do not hide from.
    My gen looks at problem with clear eyes man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!we gotta educate our women FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!! Parvez bhai, hope u agree I quoted u outta turn

    Friends, we have some relatives visiting from Bhopal- they only wanted to do one thing in Delhi- no, not visit India gate or Lodhi gardens- they all wanted to RIDE THE METRO hahaha country bumpkins. So rizzy baby is hauled back from Bhiwadi, drives eevryone to a mall near IFFCO chowk and we get to dilli haat near INA market in 35 mins flat. now thats rocking man , whooohoooo

    rissssssspectttttttt to Mr Srredaharan whatshisname , we shud name the metro after you. You see RAVI dude, we dont need your shit- wherever you hide in sialkot or timbuktu, dont come here to divide us, butt out. My country, my newspaper, my rulezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Riz

    I am just shooing of to the tennis courts at flood lit Siri Fort for bashing the ball (now dont get me wrong) in this chilled out Delhi !

    but ur zap his lit this guys forehand to win this bet of a beer with his partner!

    Now I wont do the racket trick… which was done yesterday at the Aussie open !!

    But gr8 zippy post !!

    Cheeeeeeeeeersszzzzzzzzz !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I will continue to follow Gopi’s advise.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    hv a nice one Vijay. I once dated a girl from Gargi- we used to meet at Siri Fort !
    u wont believe what our whole family is going to do tomorrow- we are going for a ride on the metro hahaha 3 generations all together. after I came back abba jaan and mamu felt they had missed the fun.
    so our Lancer, Innova and the beatup Sumo will rest while we gawp like tourists. Our 3 drivers are amused they think we are mad

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rizwan,

    Last year there was a girl from Lahore and now this one from Gargi.
    Where were all these girls when I was of your age ?
    Or may be they were around, but I was not smart enough ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    Araz hai.

    हुस्न गम्ज़े की कशाकश से छूटा मेरे बाद
    बारे आराम से है अहल-ऐ-जफा मेरे बाद

    शम्मा बुझती है तो उस मैं से धुआं उठता है
    शोला-ऐ-इश्क सियाहपोश हुआ मेरे बाद

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    I can read Hindi, but the language here is Urdu.
    Frankly did not understand the sher. First two lines
    went over my head.

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    That is Mirza Ghalib for you.

    The meaning of the first couplet is.

    Beauty has been relieved from the strugle of make-up, since I have been gone.

    The punishing tyrant is resting easy, since I have been gone.

    I hope this helps

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Good one . Tks.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Since you are very fond of ‘daaru’, here is one, which you may be aware of, though I am not much into shair and shaairi.

    Mat pee sharaab Ghalib masjid mein baith kar. Ek hi botal hai, kahin khudaa naa maang le.

    Ravi Reply:

    Wah wah, kya khoob, kya khoob

    ग़ालिब चुटी शराब पर अब भी कभी कभी

    पीता हूँ रोज़-ऐ-अब्र और शब्-ऐ-माहताब में

    engrich Reply:

    ghalib sharab peene de masjid mein baith kar

    ya wo jagah bata jahan par khuda na ho.

  • Anonymous

    Dr.Mishra, Dr. Pankaj, Balwinderji, Mohan,

    the acronym ‘PIO’ has great value and respect in India, particularly with the government and the media.

    While we are all locals, “ghar ki murgi”s.

    Now, I had appealed to Vinodji to take note of the unmentionable abuses this engrich t..d is hurling at Rizwan and Parvez. It doesn’t seem to have any effect. In fact I doubt Vinodji has even cared to read it.

    TODAY ENGRICH HAS HURLED ANOTHER VILE ABUSE AT PARVEZ, “son of a ***** keep yr a$$ shut.jahil.otherwise wait for another.”

    Now, I feel the PIOs of this blog should take up cudgels on behalf of these two innocent bloggers, whom we all respect and value, and “persuade” Vinodji to handle the two pests, who know they can abuse others with impunity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi has been quite disciplined in this particular blog despite provocations. Although I have issues with his arguments and logic, he provides a perspective. Listening, digesting to different perspectives is a part of our great heritage.

    Egrich/Ram Autar destroyed Zia’s blog. Zia used to have 700 plus comments for his blog. Not any more. Looks like he is going to do that here too.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I do not think a person can destroy a blog. It is for the rest of us not to let it happen. The best possible course is to ignore provocative posts. Engrich has been around for several months and we are still here too – going about our business.

    “Demanding” a ban on a person not to one’s liking or tastes is the ‘hallmark” of a coward / intolerant bigot.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Spot on

    Anonymous Reply:

    Look at the doublespeak too. People, who are so worked up and ‘demanding’ a ban here on this blog, are decrying the “unofficial” ban on Salman Rushdie to attend the Fest.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    Do you get the impression that there are some people here, who are under the impression that they own the blog and the rest of us are their guests.

    The threat, that this patronage will be withdrawn the moment someone uttered anything that would offend their right wing sensibilities, is ever present.

    Long we may continue to offend them.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    1) “maan yaa naa maan, yeh meraa blog’

    How puerile of them?

    2) ‘Patronage’? As if the blog is dependent upon their ‘charity’?

    How puerile of them again.

    3) If one does not like to be offended, then one has no right to offend others. It is as simple as that.

    Once more, how puerile of them to think otherwise?

    4) The intention is never to offend or hurt anyone on purpose. Some feel offended because they get shaken out of the comfort of their ‘make-believe world’, when told of the actual harsh realities outside.

    PS: I think, I have been ‘offensive’ enough for the day, so lets us call it quits on this topic. Hopefully, the message has sunk in, I doubt it, though.

    engrich Reply:

    Egrich/Ram Autar destroyed Zia’s blog.

    gopi i will not allow you to carry out baseless rss propaganda based on lie and hatred.u will be awnserable to me for what u say.if it is wrong.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    shenoybv,

    i qam waiting something constructive from u.u are an rss man.correct ur self.be a proper human being.enter in debate not in abuses.khaki necker pahan ke kali topi laga ke kahin danda ghumao kisi ghareeb ki ladki ko zinda jalao.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    This PIO is issued to Indians living in western countries not to us poor people
    in Middle East.

    Request to Mr. Sharma,

    Please remove the posts containing abusive language as mentioned by
    Mr. Shenoy.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Manohar

    Do you believe that the intensity of hounding and provocation has increased recently??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    ‘Hounding’ is the word. A pack of hounds always hunt in a mob. A person of principle will stand his ground alone and not look for reinforcements.

    To repeat my response to Gopi. Who anyone think he is to demand/plead for ban, let that person look within first, but if a person carries two yardsticks in his pocket (one to measure one own’s ‘holier than thou’ behaviour and the other to measure other people’s sins, is application of double standards.

    Yesterday, the print edition of the TOI had the following thought for the day.

    ‘An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching’ – Mahatma Gandhi.

    Some preachers we have here and ’self appointed righteous’ ones. What gives?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This is the second time that hounds have smelt blood and are gathering for the kill.

    Let’s hope both the game keeper as well as the quarry withstands the pressure.

    I think the RSS pays its volunteers bonus for every eviction they achieve.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar I attacked someones stoopid post in non vulgar language and u were upset. And yet u r silent on engerichs totally filthy language
    Double standards Sirji
    Shenoy saab one hundred percent support. BAN ABUSERS LIKE EGRICH and final warning to Ravi, no more abuse. This is gentelman blog

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sorry, this appeal wasfor Kumbhkaran Vinod Sharmaji, snoring away. Hehe

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    In case you were wondering.

    I noticed THIS post, and I choose to ignore it.

    If it is a gentleman’s blog, then what are you doing here?

    Sorry forgot to add Ha Ha here and He He there.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are on my banned list. So you get no response from me. Good bye.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    balwinder tell me who started.rizwan is like my son.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balwinderji/ Mr. Shenoy,

    Aap logon se umar mein chota hoon. If you feel offended, I apologize in advance.

    Why you both want to be compared with Engrich ?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    SInce there has been a lot of talk of offence. Here is something to think about Mahatma Gandhi

    One many proved how easy it is to make a difference through very little action. Preaching a message of social disobedience through non-violent action, Gandhi made every effort to bring together the peoples of his home nation of India together. He would ‘offend’ (emphasis mine) those that preferred violent action and this would lead to his assassination. But, his legacy lives on as all you have to do is say his name and everyone will remember his ideals and his methods.

    Courtesy David Furritus – http://www.helium.com/users/55687

    ———————————

    Here is an appeal to all (yes to all) – please refrain from abuse and labeling to make the blog more congenial. Discuss and debate the issues – never mind the result – convergence or divergence of views – respect other people’s view point. If any post offends one, just ignore it.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    salaam and namaste from Delhi everyone !

    Seems that the blog has moved a bit since morn !

    Balwinderji, I let Enric’s abuse get out of my other ear. In fact I reminded him that “Hijra nanga ho gaya hai aur gaali bhi de raha hai…”

    That should take care of him.

    Rizwan, your post is indeed lively. You are a lucky guy. I have a pile of books on my table as I write this.

    Ravi Sir (assuming you are much older to me) . There has to be a solution to one man unloading standard, static, meaningless answers all the time, devoid of intelligence and content. Further being hugely abusive if a Muslim boy ventures into new pastures with an open mind, wanting to trailblaze and become a community role model. And most of destroying the beauty and harmony of this blog, trying to become dominant by sheer volume of garbage.

    Back to my books now. If Oil becomes 150 dollars how do we sell cars to consumers is the subject which worries me for the next two hours.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Parvez

    Just so that I understand.

    Answers in yes or No

    1. Is it true that when you say “one man unloading standard, static, meangless answers” you mean ME. Yes or No

    2. If yes, can you quote?

    3. Do you beleive that my posts are “devoid of intelligence and Content” Yes or No.

    4. Have I ever stopped any Muslim boy venturing into New Pastures. Yes or No

    Parvez, I bid you good bye. You have enough admirers on this blog, the hope of modern India has been yolked on to your young shoulders. Enjoy the role.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ravi

    Sorry if I hurt you unintentionally. I meant Engrich !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Parvez

    Thank you for clearing this up.

    I am sure you have noted Balwinder’s response as a result of your post.

    However, as I said, I think us two are made of entirely different clays, it is best if we stay away from each other.

    You are intelligent whilst I am a FAKE dole claiming dumb ****, an ISI agent, a Jihadi, etc.

    I have NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER EVER abused you, but at least 6 of your minders have accused me of doing just that.

    This blog is bigger than all of us, and I do not wish to poison it.

    Enjoy your life.

    The yolk is on you. BTW I am 62 and yes I once saw Sialkot on a map.

    engrich Reply:

    i support u ravi bhai.good reply.

    engrich Reply:

    dont repeat my name again.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes RAVI, I say with sadness that from Riswan to L Mirza you assault all young fresh muslim voices who do not share yr vaary destructive agenda on all issues like Hussain painter, taleban evil, muslim backwardness.
    Only 4 person abuse others on blog, they are, S, R, R & E. Are you proud to be one of them?
    Look at Riswan, he took up very controversial issue for his quom,reservation, and SINGLE HANDEDLY cajoled and pleaded and debated his stance with others. Result some of slightly anti muslim folk here were also converted into voting for his ideas.
    I HAD TEARS IN EYES, THATS DEBATE MY FRIEND RAVI, that is one jaanbaaz I felt proud. He said their were looterey going around in cars while poor muslim women were dying in labour. He admonished his friend Vijay abt changing face of india that brahmin widows swept floors with no govt help.
    Vijay, Parveaz, Riswan, Shoeb, Gopi, Mishraji, Ashish these folk drive our thoughts, they give bold ideas while you try to poison with yr pessimism. Listen to this old man ravi, no more abuse or intimidation

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I noted this post, and Y E S I choose to ignore it.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Now back to real blogging
    ————————————

    Now Mamata wants national holidays on Netaji, Tagore birth anniversaries

    http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Now-Mamata-wants-national-holidays-on-Netaji-Tagore-birth-anniversaries/902422/

    Excerpt

    Had the Trinamool chief got her way, four more days would have been added to the Centre’s list of 17 all-India holidays.

    ————-

    What can one say about this ‘demand’?

    By having more national holidays in honour of her state’s greats, will Poschimbonga become the number one state in the country? Will the investments start flowing into the state?

    I think over a period of time, she will make herself irrelevant and no one will take her seriously. She will have no one else but herself to blame?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    dont repeat my name again.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    sorry this is for stupid parvez.not for u.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    elections should be vehicle of change.mamta is new avtaar of ma kali.things dont change there.from last one hundred years WAHI EK VIVEKANAND,WAHI ,EK TAGORE AUR WAHI KHOON KE PYASEE DURGAAUR WAHEE BHADRLOK.

    mayawati will be better that this new maa kalee.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It seems my hunch proved to be right.
    ———-

    ‘Rajasthan police invented plot to keep away Rushdie’

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2820796.ece?homepage=true

    Excerpt

    Maharashtra’s Director-General of Police P.K. Subramaniam went on record to deny that his force had provided information on a potential threat to Mr. Rushdie. “When we had no information that gangsters or paid assassins from [the] Mumbai underworld had planned to eliminate Mr. Rushdie,” he told journalists in Mumbai, “how could we have shared it with anybody”?

    Intelligence sources in New Delhi said no threat to Mr. Rushdie’s life had been reported to the Multi-Agency Centre, the Intelligence Bureau’s hub at which all terrorism-related threats are discussed at high-level afternoon meetings.

    ———-

    Disgusting to say the least.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Salman Rushdie & India’s new theocracy
    by Praveen Swami

    http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2817926.ece?homepage=true

    A stinging essay on the ways of the Government. A must read.

    Excerpta

    A) Salman Rushdie’s censoring-out from the ongoing literary festival in Jaipur will be remembered as

    “a milestone that marked the slow motion disintegration of India’s secular state”.

    Islamist clerics first pressured the state to stop Mr. Rushdie from entering India; on realising he could not be stopped, he was scared off with a dubious assassination threat. Fear is an effective censor: the writers Hari Kunzru and Amitava Kumar, who sought to read out passages from The Satanic Verses as a gesture of solidarity, were stopped from doing so by the festival’s organisers.

    B) Underwriting faith

    Few Indians understand the extent to which the state underwrites the practice of their faith. The case of the Maha Kumbh Mela, held every 12 years at Haridwar, Allahabad, Ujjain and Nashik, is a case in point. The 2001 Mela in Allahabad, activist John Dayal has noted in a stinging essay, involved state spending of over Rs.1.2 billion — 12,000 taps that supplied 50.4 million litres of drinking water; 450 kilometres of electric lines and 15,000 streetlights; 70,000 toilets; 7,100 sanitation workers, 11 post offices and 3,000 phone lines; 4,000 buses and trains.

    That isn’t counting the rent that ought to have been paid on the 15,000 hectares of land used for the festival — nor the salaries of the hundreds of government servants administering the Kumbh.

    Last year, the Uttar Pradesh police sought a staggering Rs.2.66 billion to pay for the swathe of electronic technologies, helicopters and 30,000 personnel which will be needed to guard the next Mela in 2013. There are no publicly available figures on precisely how much the government will spend on other infrastructure — but it is instructive to note that an encephalitis epidemic that has claimed over 500 children’s lives this winter drew a Central aid of just Rs.0.28 billion.

    The State’s subsidies to the Kumbh Mela, sadly, aren’t an exception. Muslims wishing to make the Haj pilgrimage receive state support; so, too, do Sikhs travelling to Gurdwaras of historic importance in Pakistan. Hindus receive identical kinds of largesse, in larger amounts. The state helps underwrite dozens of pilgrimages, from Amarnath to Kailash Mansarovar. Early in the last decade, higher education funds were committed to teaching pseudo-sciences like astrology; in 2001, the Gujarat government even began paying salaries to temple priests.

    ————–

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Absolutely true.

    The sooner religion goes out of States Activitie the better will be the health of our democracy.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    even then we call our state a secular.even pakistan dont provide any subsidy for haj pilgrims.actually they rob the hajis.apart from trillions which is spend on stupid mela,they also hurt our ecology and water resources.
    religion is curse for people of india.this money should go to development.our gods are our slaves.jeb mein chao rakho kursee pe chao rakho table pe rakho,ek saal baad apne bhagwan ko danda mar ke tod do,aur sewage me baha do.aise bhagwan ke liye india ko destroy kar rahein hai.
    yesterday there was programm on ayodhya from zee tv,even ex-bjp mp was cursing brhmnst for destroying ayodhya and holding its progress on ram issue.they should leave something for our future generation.they hide their evils by spreading anti-minority hatred.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    in gujrat till ishrat jahan was taken seriously by court,every monrth one jihadi will to kill,killer modi.now nobody comes.sacred brhmns of IB do all this,to keep atmosphere tense.help rightwing communalists/fascists/hindu zoinists of india.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    every monrth one jihadi will come to kill,killer modi

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Engrich, all riswan puttar said was Do u and ravi live in same house Disturbing” I checked.
    chhad yaar, inni choti si baat, but yr mountain of abuse in very filthy language on Parvez and riswan was disgusting. Dont say they are like my sons
    LIKE YOUR SONS, YES YOU ABUSE YOUR SONS LIKE THAT??? What you are talking. I call spade a spade, only sikhs are totally strong and independent. Yes u should be banned. You WANT TO APPEAL, go appeal to most respected men on blog, Ashish, Gopi, Dr Mishra and Dr Pankaj and Praveen Saxena. I will accept their judgement

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    A baised jury, a bent prosecutor.

    No change here then

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    balwinder jee the language he used was bad.especially when he welcomed his returning to blog after an year.i expressed my unhappines for this.then he used bad words for me.
    yes he is like my son like i consider u as my elder brother.always think for future.
    take knowledge and follow society rule.advise and harshness both were fatherly nothing personal.reply ravi was very balance and examplarily.let us concentrate onsubject as past belong to god.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @the discerning blogers(automatically excludes few tramps)
    Guys I visit this blog to be enlightened , to engage and for some intellectual stimulation.
    Few facts , the indian bloggers will find interesting
    Recently a ROMAN coin was found a french chef working in London , whose hobby happens to be amateur archaeolgy. The incredible thing about this coin was that was used by BROTHEL KEEPER as a TOKEN.This was exchanged with proper coin. This was done so that the prostitutes cannot cheat the brothel keeper.The coin has a copulating couple engraved. This takes me to the BBC2 programme on Sicily .There is a palace circa 400AD which has the largest Roman mosaic floor and walls anywhere in the world. The incredible thing about these mosaics is that the show GIRLS IN BIKINI(so bikini is not a recent invention) with DUMBELLS.apparently there are gymnast who used to entertain the rich romans with gymnastics.
    I hope you guys found this interesting.India was also at onetime such an advanced society.Just reflect on KAMASUTRA , according to KINSEY , father of scientic sexology , INDIA INVENTED SEX.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dr Shan

    Interesting indeed.

    I hope you guys found this interesting.India was also at onetime such an advanced society.Just reflect on KAMASUTRA , according to KINSEY , father of scientic sexology , INDIA INVENTED SEX.

    If Man is believed to have originated in Africa. Then what did he do for entertainment until he reached India.

    We know what he did when he got to India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Blimey , I expected better from you , given the east delhi citizen now in hibernation is so enamoured with your english. You are confusing the “art of sexual intimacy” with intercourse or procreation , which long before the african man , all sorts of vertebrates and invertebrates been doing it.
    but they hardly knew about G spot, or tantric sex, that is tantric position , in case you confuse again with the cult of tantra

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    what does “Blimey” mean ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Only half of a cokney colonial expression Corr Blimey

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh

    That means you have not seen the 80s classic TV serial – Mind Your Language.

    It is used to express one’s surprise, excitement, or alarm.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    I am glad that you still remember: Mind your language: how appropriate title for a superb series.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Shan

    Please note my choice of word entertainmnet, not procreation.

    I was only joking nay way.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    yes kamasutra is biggest&only gift of hindu india to world.that is why delhi is called rape capital of world.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The mentality of Rapist and joy of having consensual sex are two entirely different things. If you notice – KamaSutra largely deals with consensual sex.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    What is this? Totally out of context. Makes no sense whatsoever.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi/Shan

    The entertainment in sex was taught by India to the whole world.
    Western countries converted that entertainment into a huge profitable
    business of pornogrphy. Now other countries have also started following
    them in this lucrative business.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “If Man is believed to have originated in Africa. Then what did he do for entertainment until he reached India.”
    They looked at birds and bees for entertainment.
    Ancient porn. ;-)

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Shoeb K ,you visit USA often.I wonder if you had seen this Oscar winning documentary, called THE INSIDER JOB, here is an excerpt
    Charles Ferguson’s Academy Award-winning forensic analysis of the 2008 global financial crisis. The film traces the emergence of a rogue culture within the finance industry which has corrupted politics, regulation, and academia. At a cost over $20
    trillion, the crisis caused millions of people to lose their jobs and homes in the worst recession since the Great Depression, and nearly caused global financial collapse

    Apparently there is fair bit of poverty in USA , and middle class is finding it tough , with the college fees in Govt institution around 10.000 dollars , massive health insurance premiums. We are talking about ordinary folks here not Sergei Brin
    Also looks like Obama may have an easy ride this time.
    With each republican primary moreMUCK is coming to the fore.
    Apparently Newt Gingrich’s ex wife revealed in a TV chat show that Newt wanted an OPEN MARRIAGE ,and at one time used to house his mistress and wife under the same roof.
    Next will be Matt Romney’s TAX DODGE, already his BIZARRE Mormon sect and what he said to an unmarried mother is aired on the TV

    On a separate note HOW MANY BLOGGERS EXCEPT ME HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE SATANIC VERSES, it is ALSO PRETTY IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE IT IN ANY SHOPSIN UK

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,
    One interesting aspect about this US pres. elections is the Rep. candidate Ron Paul. A rather curious mix of tea-party and left-leaning philosophy.
    BHO may find it easy to get re-elected, but there is a quite a bit of frustration about his policies amongst the Dem. actvists.
    INSIDER Job – While this makes for a excellent viewing it could’ve been better with a bit more of macro-economic perspective .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar
    While discussing state’s subsidies to the Kumbh Mela and comparing with Hajj subsidy; picture would have been clearer if you had also brought in the revenue collection by temples and pilgrimage tours towards Indian govt and compare them with Govt response towards churches and mosques.

    @Mishra,
    My question was specific. It was to compare two different religions with same class. You said, Gujarati Muslims do better than Pakistani Muslims. That is comparing same religion with different class. That does not clear my doubt. Shan answered to the point, Gujarati Muslims and Hindus do equally well. Do you agree with his reply or not?

    @Ravi,
    My emphasis was not on “Muslims”, it was towards “all ….” (put any community in dots, not just Muslim).
    “…Dalit’s, OBCs and Muslims for one reason or another have not made as much progress as would be beneficiary for our society. To correct this…”
    This is what I argued earlier. Should creamy layer keep getting benefits for any number of years, till they reach a stage where the community representation in education/job equals their share in society OR should we consider nature has distributed the talent unequally, ignore the creamy layer and pass on the privileges to more deserved ones in their community?

    I will not touch the topic of social housing in UK, as I don’t feel comfortable. Nothing against single parenting; just two different cultures. I do not have any illusion that our’s is greatest. Nor I measure success of a relationship with its longevity alone. (In our society longevity dominates over mutual respect. Nothing wrong. Two different cultures. One feels commitment brings understanding, other thinks understanding will bring commitment. Both does not guarantee success. Success rate could be 30% in both). My only problem is with the idea they perceive parenting as a person’s right instead of responsibility. What people do with their life is entirely upto them. But they are willing to bring a new life onto Earth and pass on the responsibilities to the society around them. Is it a couple or a vulnarable teenage kid, it does not matter to me. My feel is, both are doing injustice to an innocent life.

    @Shan,
    I was expecting your next post on decline of Buddhism.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay

    As you must be aware, when I post a link and excerpt(s) only thereof,

    1) it is assumed that those interested would visit the websites (that is what they expect and people not reading their content somewhere else) and posting the full article may raise questions about copyright and propriety.

    2) I may or may not agree with the content therein.

    —————-

    I fully agree with the severe indictment by Praveen Swami of the state’s indulgence (financial and infrastructural) in religious affairs of the people. How much is spent on the pilgrims and how much is collected by the places of worship (not necessarily restricted to the temples alone and given the numbers obviously the collections would be higher)) is not very relevant. The question if these (‘god’s own’) businesses collect so much lucre, is it being used to provide subsidies/facilities for the devoted or is it being siphoned off by not ’so holy’ controllers?

    If the Government were to collect all the people’s offerings, may be there be some legitimacy (just) of the Government’s assistance to the religious needs of the people. As a nation of multiple cultures and uncountable religions and its variants, the State must get out of these goddam activities.

    Having said that, who is responsible for the infrastructure and costs thereof (there is no such thing as a free lunch or a ‘darshan’) required as people go about seeking ’salvation’ simultaneously in numbers that one would shudder to start counting. I have no answer. Do you?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    As Vinod Sharma has spent few blogs (at least two) speaking about corrupt BJP rule in Karnataka, can we expect a response from him for this news?
    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/illegal-mining-court-allows-probe-of-krishnas-role/222763-37-64.html

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are expecting too much from Sharma. He was chanting Yeddy Yeddy to defend Congressi scams. After than he did RSS RSS to malign Anna. Now that his work is done, he is back to his time pass topic Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No one should spared for any reason. The investigations must be allowed to carry on and any person found guilty must be punished.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay/Rajeev/Manohar

    The biggest problem is that the breed — Indian Politicians –
    is contaminated.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay,

    Krishna doesn’t even sweat under his wig! He is sure to get away with his 500 crore loot of the nation’s forests.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~ CONGRESS GESTAPO SETS POLICE AFTER WRITERS ~~~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    @ Prahlad

    I hope you WILL answer this.

    We all know nothing happens in the COngress and COngress ruled states without the consent of Digvinash and Yuvraj. SO WE all can conlcude that poor Amitava Kumar and Hari Kunzru need to phone up Digviansh and beg for mercy to get the COngress thought police of their back.

    Meanwhile chest thumping Owaisi and Deobandis are proclaiming victory and want more action against free thinking writers.

    Prahlad, sir, since you and Manohar had found a BJP hand in the anti Rushdie protests could I have your esteemed comments.

    Please also note that this is part of the Congress grand strategy to clamp down on google, facebook and internet.

    Please sir you need to remember that the COngress was the party which wanted only one channel– Doordarshan which highligeted the greatness of the Nehru- gandy families in 50% of its programs. It was only the outcast PV Rao and the BJP/NDA government which allowed all of us real internet freedoms and multiplicity of media.

    But sadly the days of Gandy’s are coming back…

    Should all of us now proclaim “welcome back… emergency and all those journos who crawled… when asked to bend….”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay

    Only because you tried to put words in my mouth.

    Again I will say this – you do not want to read or read selectively out of context.

    Read my comments again and again re:anti-Salman Rushdie protests and the BJP supporting them. It was sarcasm, but I did not spare the Congress either and the Mullahs.

    Being critical cannot be your and your fellow travelers’ exclusive right. If you have the right to be critical (which your this post is and I have no problem with that), then have the guts to face criticism about your ‘holy cows and bulls’. There is no one way street.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    I have no intention of pushing words in your mouth. Though I would still remind you that you did indeed highlight the so called BJP hand in the protests against Rushdie.

    However, fair enough in the current postings you have talked about the COngress’ double policy in the whole affair.

    On a personal level I find the whole affair rather sad and comical. Rushdie’s book was banned by Rajiv Gandhi who took advice (as Congrss then claimed ) of Khushwant Singh. SO whenever they face liberals, they say Khuswant Singh tld us to ban the book. And when they face hardliners, the try to take the credit.

    Khushwant Singh had also advised the government to ban “The great Indian Novel” written by Shashi Tharoor as it ostensibly made fun of Hindus and Congress ‘. Good that it was not banned then.

    I would have been at jaipur to watch the fun– but after the Rushdie ban… it all looks like a sarkari show.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Though I would still remind you that you did indeed highlight the so called BJP hand in the protests against Rushdie”.

    Therefore? Do I need your or anyone’s else permission to do so? Did it discomfort you?

    ———

    Who banned the book on whose behest or whatever is history.

    Anonymous Reply:

    It is important to trace out history before we discuss bigotry

    Anonymous Reply:

    VIJAY kUMAR,

    CONGRESS DOES A NAUTANKI IN JAIPUR WITH GEHLOT AS THE LEAD DANCER!

    ” An angry Salman Rushdie Sunday accused the Rajasthan Police of concocting a supposed death threat to keep him away from the Jaipur Literature Festival. The police have refused to comment.
    “I’ve investigated, and believe I was indeed lied to. I am outraged and very angry,” Rushdie posted on micro blogging site Twitter.
    He said he did not know who gave the orders to police to come up with the lie.
    “Don’t know… Yes, I guess the same police who want to arrest Hari, Amitava, Jeet and Ruchir. Disgusting,” wrote the controversial writer of Indian origin.
    Authors Hari Kunzru, Amitava Kumar, Jeet Thayil and Ruchir Joshi read passages from “The Satanic Verses” on the first day of the festival, after Rushdie pulled out of the event citing threats to him.

    http://expressbuzz.com/nation/rajasthan-police-lied-tweets-angry-rushdie/355838.html

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good that I did not go to Jaipur ! I would also be hunted by the Gestapo!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijayji sirji,

    don’t you recall, sirji, the comment against Digvijay Singh I made two months ago? I had severely criticised him for misleading innocent baby, the yuvraj.

    And about six months ago, I had criticised, though mildly because she is a woman, Sheila Dixit for not sharing the CWG loot with Sonia Gandhi.

    And if you remember,about five years ago, I was highly critical and severely disapproving of even Quattrocchi for not crediting the agreed share in Sonia Gandhi’s Swiss account.

    Then, how can you accuse me of attacking only BJP and its leaders?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    I guess Prahlad has his loylaties witht he Congress ! But the whole issue of freedoms is getting dissolved in the ideological censorship the Cngress is getting.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    ~~ WHAZ HAPPENING AT THE JAIPUR LIT— OpraH talks education for deprived~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    Oprah winfrey again stressed that education was the only way out of ghettos, in her stage inteview with Barkha Dutt.

    She talked about starting a school in south Africa which would create leadership roles for women.

    I hope all the people who want to divide people on caste and communal lines to create votebanks or topics for fake sociological discussions are liteneing.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay I saw the interview. Remarkable lady. And surprsingly Barkha Dutt matched her verve.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~ CONGRESS CREATES FAKE ASSASINATION PLOT– to scare Rushdie ~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    Yuvraj and Digviansh have created so many fake plots which get easily lapped by the supplicant media. They even saw an RSS hand in 26′/11. They saw RSS RSS everywhere even in batla house. And they saw RSS RSS Kali topi in the anti corruption movement.

    But thye even created a fake story of an assasination plot to scare Rushdie !!

    Hai re COngress. Hai re yeh trolls!!

    I think this is magical realism, Rushide writes about… :) :)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pretty silly if the government did this. They have made us look like a banana republic which spins false stories to scare people.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Congress backs Rahul but BJP distrustful of Varun: Book

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Congress-backs-Rahul-but-BJP-distrustful-of-Varun-Book/articleshow/11587075.cms

    Excerpt

    “To a large extent, it boils down to the choices which Rahul and Varun and their fathers or mothers have made. While Rajiv enjoyed the goodwill of the people, Sanjay was almost hated for his policies,” the book titled ‘Rahul’ by journalists Jatin Gandhi and Veenu Sandhu says.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    UID poses national security threat: BJP

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/UID-poses-national-security-threat-BJP/articleshow/11583988.cms

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    Though the point which BJP has raised is valid, but IMO it will be almost
    impossible for such people to be detected and caught because of the
    high level of corruption in our country. However, after UID is fully implemented
    than it will be very dificult for an illegal emigrant to get Indian citizenship
    by bribing few babus. This is a good scheme and government should make sure that it is implemented all over the country.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Even I have some doubts about the authenticity of the people registering and the data so submitted. So far there are no cross-checks, perhaps because of the lack of personnel, infrastructure and the costs involved. .

    May be after some critical amount of data is collected, then there will be an audit and the system made foolproof. Let us hope for the best.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Endorse both your and mohan’s views.

  • Anonymous

    This is about First family of Bollywood.

    Abhishek Bachchan asked his newly born daughter : Do you know who is your
    grandfather ?
    Baby replied : Yes, he is Big B, the star of the millenium
    Abhishek : Who is your mother ?
    Baby : Miss world
    Abishek : Who is your father ?
    Baby : No Idea sirjee.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    you are getting wicked ideas, sirji!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    I hope you did not find this ‘A’ class or soft porn.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No, it is so far away from the f word.

    I liked the joke.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Absolutely comic state of affairs !

    Bachchan is reserved for quota oof stardom pushed by dad, mom and wife !

    Anyway any bets on the Indian team doing better in the next test ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    I will be happy if they manage to draw the test. However, ODI series
    will be different all together.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    mohanrr;
    did not think that you can be a ****** also at times.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Of Kumbh mela and UK muslims””””””””’

    MANOHAR- challenging thoughts. Should we not have the Kumbh mela next time, an event that is increasingly being covered by international media positively ? Last time it was reported and televised extensively in UK with huge praise showered on the brilliant organisational capability of the Indians involved.
    If it should be held who should fund it if not the govt?

    VINAY- in byte size replies it is impossible to cover the whole ground. You asked do muslims do as well as other religions OF SAME CLASS ? Easy to answer-

    - At the level of doctors, barristers, accountants- most probably yes. Minor differences do creep in because even at this level because in some muslim families the lady will not work, so we are saying annual famliy income will be £100,000 instead of £ 150,000- £200,000.

    - But the further one goes down the economic ladder, the wider the disparity between hindus-sikhs and muslims. A working class Gujrati muslim does much better than a Pakistani of same class, but sadly not same as a working class Gujrati hindu.

    The success of the hindus and sikhs in the UK, coupled with their tendency to lead peaceful lives in general is widely recognised and lauded by society and media at large

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr. Mishra

    The only point to consider is as to who should bear the expenses for Kumbh Melas, Haj Subsidies, visits to Gurudwaras or to Amarnath or to Mansarovar, etc., etc.

    Coverage by international media and the accolades thereon or any other consideration is not relevant at all.

    No one is suggesting that the Kumbh Melaas should not be held or people should not go for Haj or pilgrimages.

    At most, the state administration and machinery must provide all the infrastructure, but someone has to pay for it (and not use tax payers money). Who is that someone?

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    Yes, those who attend Kumbh mela are also tax payers. Any such mammoth arrangement has to be managed by government. no doubt about it.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    managent fees should be taken.in haj saudi goverment charges maitainance fees from hajis.moreover ninty percent are dirty poors who dont pay any tax.

    engrich Reply:

    haj should not be subsdized.in islam man has to pay full expenses of haj.all expenses on melas, which destroys our water resoueces and ecology,must be paid by organizers.
    all false claims which so called bhagwans made to cheat the people
    must checked.if found wrong they should be sent to jail.all militias like ram sena and rss should be disbanded.they annot run state within state..

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    The success of the hindus and sikhs in the UK, coupled with their tendency to lead peaceful lives in general is widely recognised and lauded by society and media at large

    inspite of the fact that we are caught daily in economic terrorism.

    hindu became chamchas of britishers 2 generation.that gap is there.for muslims religion is more than money.we give shit to money.we also dont consider economic succes only as true succes of life.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dear Ravi,

    My apologies for taking so long to respond. We are in the middle of bidding for some major projects . That kept me away. But even other wise, it is very difficult to spend more time on Blog .

    Coming back to our topic of Discussion ,” Should reservations or benifits be available to Muslims on the basis of their religion”. Before we start, please let me know when you want this discussion to stop, we will stop it there. Similarily, when I feel we have nothing more to gain or contribute, I will stop it.

    While we are on this discussion, let me answer two questions which in my opinion would create a clearer background.

    First question is : Do I hate Muslims?

    The answer is NO. The strongest way I can can say NO.I would request friends here to help with their better language proficiency to help me say strongest NO. I have worked, lived, laughed, fought with people who are born in Muslim families. While in my daily life, in my profession or personal life, it never crosses my mind to look at a person differently because he is Muslim born.

    Second Question : Do I hate Islam ?

    The answer for this is not Straight forward. I am Critical, infact highly Critical of Islamic ideology , Islamic Philosophy, Islamic History and concept of Islamic Brotherhood. As I had explained in one of my earlier posts, I do not make my analysis based on a point . I try to draw as many diverse points as possible and then let the shape on the graph emerge. A classic case from Science is Parabola which is an inverted Bell shape. If we take points from one side , or the other side only and plot, it will look like straight lines. If we take points only from middle it will appear as a curve. However, when we take maximum points from all three of above, it will start emerging as Parabola – its real shape. Similarily regarding Islam,I have discussed with Muslims, discussed with non muslims who sympathise with Islam, Discussed with people who are critical of Islam, Studied history of Islam- critical and sympathetic ones, Numerical growth of Islam in various regions of world , India and reasons for the same.Referred to recognized translations of Quran, analysed on whether what has been history of Islamic imperialism, does it still have any relevance, Is the source of Islamic imperialism Quran and Hadith or later developments, how muslim communities have lived with non muslims in past and present. The reason for this interest is , it is fascinating to understand Human and Community psychology. How it shapes society. History becomes a big source of Data for such studies. Also, Non Muslims everywhere have had problems with Islam since last 1400 years and the problem has still not abated. Either the problems are real or as is being portrayed many times as Islamophobia. Based on my wide range studies, I have made my Critical opinion of Islam.
    But still, do I hate it. The answer is NO. Hatred is regressive. It harms you more than it can harm your object of Hatred. I have love and Sympathy for people born in Muslim families. It could have been me there if my ancestors had not evaded getting converted. I want them to come out from it, or atleast let them morph it into something which can live peacefully in Civilised world.

    We can start our discussion with a small joke.

    A helicopter with its pilot and co-pilot looses its way over Seattle city. Suddenly Co-Pilot finds people on terrace of a large building enjoying sun shine during Lunch time. He jots down on Large Playcards and displays to people on Terrace WHERE AM I . Immediately people on terrace scramble playcards and display IN HELICOPTER . On seeing this, Co pilots mumbles, Oh, this is Microsoft building. Immediately he redraws his coordinates and is able to direct pilot to land at proper place. Now Pilot is curious, he enquires, how did you know that was Microsoft Building. Co Pilot answers, it is these Computer guys who come out with Technically Correct Answers , but in actual , Totally Useless Answers.

    Above was a joke , however we daily find examples of this happening around us. We hear Technically and Politically correct Statements, when in actual they are useless statements. They are missing the ESSENCE. When we are discussing on our topic, we have to keep this ESSENCE in focus.

    This country has had huge problems with Islam for last 1000 years.

    Islam has still not accepted and apologized for its role in Holocaust in India . ( This would be first step in their getting ready to live peacefully with other Non-Muslims of India. Like representatives or born in so called higher castes in Hindu society have accepted and apologized for their discriminations of past, SC/ST reservations are a result of that, there was no pressure from these classes when it was formulated)

    This country has been divided on the basis of religion.( Which demonstrates that even 60 years back also, Muslims as a community have not accepted living with Non-Muslims peacefully. We find similar example in only Muslim majority state of India- J&K)

    Reservations on the basis of Religion, particularly Islam will not go well with majority opinion.

    It is not supported by our Constitution and essence of Constitution.

    Above points are real points , No politically and technically correct statements.

    However, there should also not be any discrimination with Muslims on the basis of their religion. They should enjoy fruits of Indian Constitution like any other . They can and should be covered under any help based on economic criteria. And there should be special emphasis on Education among Muslims and particularily Muslim women . Govt. can definitely help in that. Education will also slowly resolve above listed points. But a Strong NO to reservation and other helpto Muslims based on their religion.

    My apologies for this long post.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Aaloke

    I am otherwise busy today, so I may not be able to respond. However, I will respond addressing each of your points.

    Thank you for keeping this blog serious.

    Regards

    Ravi (yes that really is my name)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke,

    Enjoyed reading your post.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke

    Applause for your posts.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke

    Good analysis, flawed at places. Your discussion of Parabola brought back my wonderful days at REC eons ago learning to become a Civil Engineer — y squared equal 4 ax, suspension bridge, cartesian equation etc etc.

    Now the Jewish lobby is going to be after you for using the word “holocaust”..It is reserved for them… just a joke…

    “This country has had huge problems with Islam for the last thousand years”..I believe it is a stretch of a statement. Yes, there were invasions and looters, but invaders like Moguls stayed put in the country building great empires without repatriating anything to any foreign country. Invasions were the mainstay all across the world in those centuries. Akbar was as great an emperor as any India had; prompting Queen Elizabeth I to send him a letter that the news of his “humanity” (not his wealth or valour) reached even distant shores. Dara Shikoh translated Indian classics and Upanishads to Parsi. In the introduction to his book Sine Akbar, he says the reference “kitab Al – Maknun” or the hidden book in Quran is none other than the Indian Upanishads.. (of course all that contributed to his murder by a “devout” brother of his, Aurangazeb). That a brother will arrange to kill his brother in front of his little son, and present the blood dripping head to an imprisoned father on his dinner table is a brutal act of a deranged man and not an Islamic act.

    It is said that Akbar’s India was the highest GDP country at that time — Of course there was no USA then.

    So called valerous Rajputs were willingly getting their daughters married to Muslim kings and noblemen so they can live lavishly.

    Hindus and Muslims lived together amicably for the most part after the initial invasion issues were settled. The “lucknow culture”, the immense contribution to Hindustani classical music etc are the other side of the coin.

    Arab traders were trading with the Malabar coast (present day Kerala) even before the Northern invasions. They settled, married, coexisted with their neighbour Hindu brothers and sisters (in many cases it was literally the brothers and sisters)… an invasion/conversion there would not happen till Tippu Sultan’s run in 1820s.

    The first independence war (Sepoy Mutiny) was a joint, willing Hindu-Muslim attack against the British. Jhansi Lakshmi Bai, Tanya Tope coordinated and fought along with Begum Hazrat and Khan Bahadur.

    Of course the world knows how the British manipulated and divided.

    You are absolutely right that there are problems, “real big’ problems caused by political/militant/extremist Muslims, mostly backed by Saudi Arabia. I have said many a time here that “gods own land” soon will become “devil’s own land” unless this extremism is not dealt with. Unfortunately the political class does not want to deal with for the fear of offending the voting block. They are the new valerous Rajputs!

    “Islam has not accepted and apologized for the holocaust in India” — Even if we accept this thesis, who should apologize? How will that process work? Is it the Bukhari of Delhi apologizing for the past on behalf of the dead Muslim offenders of the past?

    Will that apology erase the razings of Somnath?

    For that matter how can we hold an Abdul from today’s Junagadh responsible for what Ghazni Mohamed plundered and looted at Somnath thousand years ago? Or let us say he wants to apologize for his great great great great great…grandfather Ghazni – whom does he apologize to?

    Invasions happen. We were a sitting duck with little countries, feudal landlords, kings ruling 10 square feet of land fighting with the neighbouring king ruling over 20 square feet of land….

    India is eternal. We absorb and adapt. Today it is being propelled by the tremendous optimism of our people anchored in the past, challenging the future.

    Invasions and the resultant violence and upheavals are one small part of its millenniums. Shankara, Mahavira, Gautama Budha crisscrossed this land.

    But long before that God-like men crisscrossed from the west Dwaraka to the east Mathura, and from the north to the south in Sri Lanka.

    And even long before that, long long long before Gazani looted, our ancestors recited “ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti” and Loka samastha sukhino bhavandu’.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    A standing ovation for a masterful post.

    PS: This is what blogging is all about.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Gopi,

    My response to Ravi was long, because I wanted to keep the background clear. So I had to make some lengthy explanations. I wanted to explain that what I am writing is not rantings of a deranged communal bigot.Whatever I have mentioned is what majority of people know , but are afraid or shy to say so .This Culture of political correctness has engulfed us and most of us get trapped in it. In long run,It does’nt do good to anyone

    I totally agree with what ever good things/deeds you have mentioned above. But please remember , these acts were not dictated or evolved through practice of Islam. it is what a normal sane person would naturally do. There will always be people in any society who are naturally pre-disposed towards being Scoundrels. However millions of people who would normally be loving and caring people , turn into beasts by getting influenced by regressive ideologies. My concern is these philosophies. Since Islam in my opinion classifies under this category, hence my special concern. We can always discuss at our leisure some similar philosophies of past who have now mellowed, or philosophies which can evolve in future, but since Islam is past as also live and kicking in present, hence the urgency.

    Regarding apology, first, as you have also mentioned, no Muslim is personally responsible for what has happened in past. So no one is supposed to apologies personally. Similarly no so called higher caste has or is supposed to apologies personally for their corresponding guilt. First comes the realization of Facts. Has there been any movement in Muslim societies on this account ? Now Has there been corresponding movement in so called High Caste societies on discrimination they had indulged in? Answer for latter is Yes .Past discrimination is recognized by everyone now. There could be some far flung pockets still not accepting this , but they are also in the process of getting round to accepting it.The momentum is there.

    Unfortunately, there is no such momentum in Muslim societies. They are not recognizing this themselves, neither people outside these communities are creating enough pressure on them for soul searching. This is one of root problems. I am only trying to build that pressure in my own humble way.Apology required is not personal, however it will come in its own way when realization dawns.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke,

    Good reply. However, I agree with Gopji on the issue of
    apology. Who is responsible to offer an apology and who is
    authorized to accept? What we need is more and more people
    like Shoeb, Rizwan and Parvez, who have defied the fundamentalism and joined the mainstream as an Indian without carrying the label of religion. But, these guys are from
    the upper society and there already the signs of modernisation
    are clearly visible. We do not see them wearing religion
    on their sleeve. The real problem lies in the backwardness
    of muslims who are poor — and there are millions –. This is
    where politics comes into play, because fundamentalism and
    radicalism is found there. Some thing should be done
    there to bring them out of this rut and make them assimilate
    with the mainstream India. Reservation on religion basis is
    not the answer, that will divide us more than it will unite.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dear Mohanrr,

    Let me clear this mis-understanding on apology. As I have tried to mention earlier, no individual apology is required , neither any formal one. So there is no need to find out who apologizes to whom. The first step is acknowledgement of problem, like it is happening in Hindus regarding Caste discrimination. Apology can not be by force, it has to come by its own momentum. Remember you recently posted a link of one pakistani gentleman in Canada being Interviewed, was it Tarek Fateh ? See his clarity , understanding and realization of past and present. This is what is required, but on a much wider scale so that it becomes mainstream.

    Frankly, then there would not be any problem on this account. Does it really matter if many people bow towards west and pray. Does it matter if many of them without compultion or societal pressure grow their beard in a particular way.It does not matter. But if it is ingrained in the philosophy that you have to convert others to your view, use of force is accepted and recommended to achieve this stupid target, if it has been practised on a big scale in past and is being done in present, then it has to be confronted.Confronted very strongly .

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke,

    Understood your point. Thanks.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aaloke

    No dispute/disagreement with what you stated.

    While I am not a supporter of the excessive military crackdown of Tamils in Sri Lanka, I do have a theory of what triggered the animosity in the first place – The majority Sinhalese was forced to “feel like a ‘classic’ discriminated minority” in their country.

    The stupid politicians here through the ill advised minority reservation etc is creating that tipping point. It is in the best interest of all not to go there. Because in that scenario the minority will be decimated, and we will lose the soul of our country.

    There is no question that Islam has to be “reinvented” by discarding the outmoded tenets of the manichaen divide between fidels/infidels, dar al Islam/dar al Harb that results in dismal backwardness for many and violence among some.

    However, the responsibility lies beyond Muslims (from an Indian perspective). Govt and political parties have to stop coddling Muslims, stop taking them granted for a voting block, make them independent etc. The alliance between the “so called vested spokes persons of the community”"and the vultures like Samajwadi and Lalu parties a(and congress and BSP etc) have to be severed.

    engrich Reply:

    stop taking them granted for a voting block,
    why they should vote for bjp when they have nothing for them in their agenda.

    engrich Reply:

    full of half truth untruth and complete lies.u are problem for india and indians.u brhmns are rseponsible for all evils india is facingGO TO AYODHYA ASK WITH THEIR INHABITNTS WHAT U HAVE DONE TO THEM.HINDUS THERE HATE U MORE THAN MUSLIMS.THEY HAVE BANNED UR ENTRY.

    ALL MONEY U COLLECTED BY FOOLING THE PEOPLE OF INDIA MUST BE CONFISCATED AND GIVEN AYODHYA MUNICIPALITY TO START INFRASTUCTRAL PROJECTS

    80%OFYOUTH IS UNEMPLOYED.ALL MONEY GOES TO SECURITY INSTEAD OF DEVELOPMENT.

    U PEOPLE ARE REALLY CURSE FOR INDIA.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Brilliant. History in a right perspective. There are always two sides
    of the coin and both should be mentioned.
    Clap Clap Clap for you, sir.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Ghazni Mohamed plundered and looted at Somnath thousand years ago
    COMPETING BRHMNS HELPED HIM TO LOOT TEMPLES.BUT GHAZNI PROVIDED JOBS TO MILLIONS OF INDIANS INCLUDING BRHMNS ARCHITECT AND ENGINEERS TO BUILD GHAZNI(THE MOST BEAUTIFUL CITY OF WORLD) WITH THAT MONEY.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Islam has not accepted and apologized for the holocaust in India” — Even if we accept this thesis, who should apologize?

    UR THESIS is based on your imagination not on facts.whole of kalinga was not decimated by muslims.budhhdist and jainese did not disappeared from the scene by muslims.

    GOPI I CHALLENGE AGAIN I SAY I CHALLNGE,IF u show me any book written by any brhmn critisizing muslim rule.since the rss is formed u are inventing holocausts and asking us to oppolige.things are other way around.u have to apolige the people of india for hoarding trillions of dollars worth of wealth earned through cheating of innocent indians and starving them to death.it is only a chance that they got jobs in muslim countries.which gave them new life and new self respect.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Agree with your analysis.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    s as a community have not accepted living with Non-Muslims peacefully

    bullshit they lived together for thousand years undermuslim rule, seprated under divisive hindu raj.nazi jagmohan played politics.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Gopi

    You talked about the deterioration of the situation in Kerala. Now do you have resonable implementable solutions in mind?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I think Kerala is a paradise and we should not be in a situation where paradise is lost.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Islam has become a big issue everywhere. But are we talking solutions where Muslims are considered normal citizens– good or bad, ugly and handsome?

    Or are we obsessed with “special needs” amd requirements of Muslims all the time?

    I find all this a bit silly all the time. In UP where I come from, the issue is who are Muslims going to vote for, what policy each party has for them.

    Funny, I thought all of us were normal Indians, practicing religiosn at home.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    why u dont worry about ur community.why so much love for muslims.49%of ur women are enemic.we are 134 in list of nation.millions of ur brother commit suicide.look at ur streets ,u will find walking skeletons.

    india has the largest pool of illetrates in the world.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vinoo i am up as well only thing muslims need is freedom from dallals.dallals are running up.if u start from ghaziabad to bhadoi every city is known with muslim hanicraft.but they are paid least possible.this is hurting india as well.being less paid quality of product reduce.all other problem are nothing.with good payment they can send their children to good schools can come main stream.
    this gang of dallals is our agriculture and small scale industry.no goverment is coming forward to save them from this blood sucking mafia.
    muslims have some hope with sonia jee and rahul.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi

    Nitin Gadkari bats for Narendra Modi as PM candidate and party chief

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_nitin-gadkari-bats-for-narendra-modi-as-pm-candidate-and-party-chief_1640961

    Ruling out himself as his party’s prime ministerial candidate, BJP president Nitin Gadkari today favoured Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi for the top job and promised to back his candidature as party chief.

    ———————–

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    It was bound to happen, but, it has come sooner than I had expected.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    till america lift ban on him he cannot do top job.brhmns are against him.
    so gadkari simply fooling us.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar

    Modi will be a great Prime Minister – We need him in these uncertain times. A man of conviction – deep down he has a deep down – unlike the flaky ones who will sell their country and their mother.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    killer modi is hindu hraday samrat.this is what all fascists say.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay

    Family business. ;-)

    Rajnath Singh’s son elevated, 3 angry UP BJP secretaries quit

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_rajnath-singh-s-son-elevated-3-angry-up-bjp-secretaries-quit_1641006

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    It would be sad and foolish of BJP to pick up dynastic succession tricks from the COngress. In UP, former CM Kalyan Singh was made to leave the party becasue he tried to get his son into the party.

    All regional parties like NC, Akalis, DMK, TDP, Shiv Sena, SP, RLD, Lalu etc are basically family fuedal units.

    The COngress, though National is the grandaddy and mother of all in dynasty terms.

    As you would notice all are maha corrupt.

    BJP should avoid this model

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    “shenoybv,

    i qam waiting something constructive from u.u are an rss man.correct ur self.be a proper human being.enter in debate not in abuses.khaki necker pahan ke kali topi laga ke kahin danda ghumao kisi ghareeb ki ladki ko zinda jalao.”——egg-rich

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    This is in public, but in private all these people instead of this they would
    be touching his feet.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    yeh to tum logon ke karnamon kee chothe see jhalak hai.in ahmadabad there are many cases when u snatched the babies from the lap of their mothers.cut him into pieces
    mixed this with concrete and tarcoal and plaster the road.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In Pakistan, the army chief decides the government’s age

    BUT, IN INDIA, THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES THE ARMY CHIEF’S AGE——-TOI

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Very good one.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Another good one Shenoy sahab.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    this is good.i liked this joke.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In India any reason is a good reason for protest. Where are we leading ?

    http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=748389

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am nursing a slightly sore back after an extended tennis session today. But coming home and picking up my bottle of Teachers… I was reminded of you ! yes we need to share a drink one day…

    You are right about this We are a nation of protesters now. No forward movement on issues… just debate endlessly and create a non issue into a publicity seeking excercise…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Yes, definitely we should have a drink together. I will be there next month for two
    weeks, will try to meet.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Another manifestation of demanding a ban a la Hussain, Salman Rushdie, etc. etc. by loony elements.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    india banned satanic verses just to provide propaganda to him and his book.in ue and many other muslim countries it is not banned.it is third rated books which will not sell without propaganda.banning is best propagada.it is part of international zoinist anti-muslims hate compaign.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Dr Pankaj welcome back. Sadly blogs all over the world and comments on you tube etc do get dominated by trolls and abuse. So no need to think this tendency is limited to Indians, haha.

    Mishraji;
    Very seldom, I go to blogs in western papers/ magazines. I have never seen the kind of trash which is a routine affair here. Anyway, there is nothing wrong in wishing for good posts.
    I agree most of the times with your, Shenoy, Vijay, Manohar, Gopi, Mohanrr and some others’ views, if not in totality then in parts, at least. That is healthy blogging.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thank You Pankaj.

    We all believe in healthy blogging. But the problems you see out here are the sort of problems which stop India from moving on. It is all debate and noise and no movement.

    There was a movement for removing corruption recently in India. We shoul have got a srong bill in and moved on. But it became an excuse to get RSS in the picture and torpedeo the movement. Corruption will remain as strong as ever.

    We are all bothered about the plight of our Muslim brothers. Their fall in social indices is a reason for concern and direct action. Yet reservations in the name of relgion would be going back to separate electorate and Jinnah’s formulae. There were many good suggestions here, including those by a few Muslims. Yet a vested group would only want divisive religion based reservations and defale all others as RSS. Absolutely stupid.

    NO ocuntry in the world has religion based reservation, except Pakistan type coutnries which do it for their Muslims.

    So that in the end is the problem with India. It is all about hot air and debate. But no forward movement on issues, outside the achievements in the private sector.

    Sad.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    NO ocuntry in the world has religion based reservation, except Pakistan type coutnries which do it for their Muslims

    totally wrong.there is reservation for minorities everywhere,even they have double voting rights.they can vote in general quota and minority quota both.

    u want to hide ur descrimination by naming pakistan.no there are many hindu diplomats i pak foriegn service.and many sikh commisioned officers in their army.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I want to avoid talking to you because of your obscene,vulgar and communal insults to Rizwan and Pervez. However you can give me proof of relgious based reservations in a positve manner with proof and links in any of the deomcratic societies.

    Please dont quote Pakistani and Saudi relgious reservations which would be for Muslims, only becasue fo being in a MAJORITY and not for minorities.

    engrich Reply:

    just write to pak embassy and get awnser.there is resrvation in senate and parliament for minorities.they
    have double voting right.they can vote in general quota and again in their fix quota.iif backward reading gita can get reservation why not his brother who read holy quran.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Yes Vijay;
    That is the crux of the problem. lot of hot air but little balooning of good ideas.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    If you have noticed, for the last 24 hours or so, there has been no trash / abuse / labeling here. All posts are discussing issues (some excellent contributions by Aaloke, Vinay, Ravi and Gopi) and not targeting individuals members.

    One only hopes this ‘fragile’ situation holds indefinitely.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    frankly you will have to admit that the real problem is Engrich. He will make some hurting statements against Hindus and India. You may consider them normal and not worhty of comment… but they are others who would take offence. His abuse of Rizwan and Pervez and before that of Rajeev was exceedingly perverse.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Selective, eh!. There are two or three more (*) who have been equally guilty. I only hope you do not see the situation the way you want to see and see it the way it is, but it is only a faint hope. Acknowledging mistakes from one’s own side requires courage.

    All ‘offensive’ posts must get the royal ignore.

    * Read Mohan’s question yesterday.

    Anonymous Reply:

    No Manohar, Not selective.

    Somehow it is being argued that peace can only be allowed on this blog if Engrich and his pal is allowed to continue his anti India tirade and abuse of hindus, undisturbed.

    Not very fair rulews of engagement.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Does that mean abuse of other religions and people on the other side of divide is acceptable to you?

    I have told you before. my Hinduism is far more stronger, so Engrich or anyone else attacking or insulting it does not make a dent. Perhaps your brand of Hinduism is not able to withstand them.

    For nearly 1000 years, India has been invaded and conquered by external entities, yet Hinduism (as I know it) lives on, so whoever on this blog insults or trashes it makes no difference either. Such attacks are a reflection on the originator rather than the target.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    Engrich and I are always the ones asked to stop attacks, where as RajeevS, Shenoy, and Vijay himslef have been persistantly abusive for the last 18 months.

    They decide what constites attck on Hinduism and that is enough for them to become abusive.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I know it very well. Let us wait for Vijay’s response. As Isaid, It requires courage to …

    But I must give credit to Vijay for not being abusive and not indulging in personal attacks on members here, for quite sometime now.

    engrich Reply:

    mr mohan i only awnser but i dont start.general hindu is best slave that is muslims never tried to convert them.they were afraid if they get converted they will loose their character of submissiveness.

    engrich Reply:

    i challenge when u people speak lie and fabricate history to ur convenience.u stop doing this i will not say anything.i gave many challenges to gopi,he never awnsered.aaloke is writing absolute bullshit.i anwsered him let me see if he awnsers.

    apni dhaplee apna raag.

    i am muslim if anybody will lie about our religion or people i will challenge.

  • Dr Mishra

    Manohar, some points.

    1. lets not wish away the kumbh mela. If the hindus have been under “foreign rule” for 1000 years, then some allowance must be made for allowing them to develop their own culture for 100-200 years.

    2. expenditure on the kumbh mela stays within the country while Haj subsidy is to fly people out. Their is a difference

    3 Here in UK, all pupils take part in nativity christian plays and all children get some pretty revolting exposure to sex education even in primary school years, including info on homosexuality.
    Point I am making is that the Brits think nothing of foisting Christian religious or cultural beliefs down our throats, whetehre we like it (nativity plays) or not (homosexual proselytisation).
    Similarly we should not think twice about developing with pride our own culture, our own festivals. And yes, in an increasing global world, the potantial for tourism should always be explored and it always helps to get glowing international coverage.

    Brand India is getting very powerful here with Harrods and Selfridges regularly doing bollywood themes or Diwali festivals. And Mayor Boris Johnson and Cameron always singing our praises.

    India is waking up – financially, culturally, tourist- wise- and every little helps. So I say SUPPORT AND DEVELOP KUMBH MELA. What do others think ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) As far as I am concerned, no Government support for any religious activity.

    You slip is showing – re: Kumbh Mela vs Haj. I need not say anything more, except that India has maintained around US$ 300 billion in FX reserves for many years now, a few million a year would not make an iota of a difference. Your worry about outflow is a justification in public, but underneath ……..

    What about Sikhs going to Pakistan for pilgrimage then? There is also a difference. No?

    2) What Britain does in its own country with its citizen is their right and their problems (if there are). If people (foreigners) who have emigrated or gone to work in UK do not like or approve (you seem to be one), then such people can return to their country of origin. Nobody forced them to go to UK in the first place and there is no compulsion to stay on. Accept and adapt or else take the first flight home. Britain may not make drastic changes to their way of life, just because of the immigrants’ distaste, if they do well and good, otherwise grin and bear it, else there is Heathrow, Gatwick, ……….

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I asked you an hour or so back about Kumbh mela. could not locate it hence writing again. Am I missing something here? If government depute Police, Officers, Fire Brigade , Ambulances for keeping things in order, is it objectionable?? Again, am I missing something? Is government giving railway fare to pilgrims? paid accomodation,food , or some cash allowance to people or money to some organization to manage these things, curious to know. People who attend this fare are law abiding tax paying citizens of India and their welfare is governmental responsibility.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    I did not see your post. Will respond shortly.

    engrich Reply:

    goverment should not allow pilgrims to spoil our water resources.taxpayers should not pay for their holy journey.impose ticket to recover expenses.in america and canada millions of hindus live,but they are allowed to spoil their rivers and lakes.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    First let me give you an example – a cricket test match say at Wankhede Stadium. Extra resources from the state government, the police and the municipality are deployed and the BCCI pays for it, who in turn collect it from the spectators and from others sources – telecast rights, etc.

    ‘These spectators and the TV audiences are law abiding tax paying citizens of India and their entertainment is governmental responsibility’. No?

    I am sure, you are getting the gist of what I am saying.

    Now back to Kumbh Mela. I suppose you have read the full article by Praveen Swami in the link I provided, if not please read it. The Government is supposed to keep away from religion and is religion neutral, as dictated by the constitution – there are far too many religions and its variants in India.

    All the extra resources mentioned by you are deployed by the Government. Praveen Swami mentions the other infrastructural costs – water, power, etc. The question remains who pays for them?

    Providing “subsidies’ for entertainment or for religious rituals are not part of the Government’s duty and responsibility.

    Perhaps, an authority or an organisation of the temples and others in the concerned city (Allahabad, Nasik, Ujjain and Haridwar) can be established and they in turn should collect some sort of fees from the people who choose to go to the mela. The fees, donations and the offerings at the temples throughout the preceding 12 years can be used to pay for the resources.

    Do you have an alternative as to who pays and how and from whom do they collect the money?

    engrich Reply:

    Kumbh Mela vs Haj,

    haj subsidy is some discount in ticket that too if u fly air india.

    hindu are destroying rivers.now their puja continues for entire year damaging our infrastructure wasting time fooling the people.33crore devta and one country.how many working hours we loose.

    but eyes are full of tears why subsidized ticket is given.when from muslim countries india makes 40 billions of dollars through remmittance aprt rom trade and employment.narrowmindedness should have some limits.mishra u are doctor.

    because of foriegn remmittance u drive car instead of cycle.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr mishra

    Is this explicit sex education in UK encouraging the kids to go for practicals?

    Hope it does not sound too gross, but sometimes. too much knowledge at the wrong age can be dangerous…

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Haj subsidy is only ticket that too if u use airindia.u hindus are curse for india.destroying and water resources due stupid old traditions.now even the brhmns of ayodhya curse rss and bjpwho fooled them on ram mandir.next time when u visit india go ayodhya.

    kumbh or any other can be can be supported if they spoil our rivers.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    kumbh or any other can be supported if they dont spoil our rivers.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dear Aaloke.

    Many thanks for a good read, I will respond to your points on a point by point basis. Yet there would remain some thoughts your post engendered which puzzled me but I shall save them for another day.

    The End – Aaloke this discussion ends when either of us stop discussing. I had formed the impression that it already had ended. I am not here to win an argument or to lose it. I am not in that frame of mind. Please feel free to end it whenever you wish. There is no emotion involved here.

    Islam & Muslims – Whether an individual likes Islam or hates it is a personal matter for that person. You and I are included in that totality. Unlike you, I have not studied Islam and I do not allow myself to be bothered by it. What bothers me is when Islam is used as a political tool by both its adherents as well as its sworn enemies? These politicos would have used anything else had Islam not been conveniently available. So while discussing these people’s activities, focusing on Islam is like discussing symptoms of a rash rather than diagnosing its underlying causes. An example would be that Pakistan Army is anti-India rather than it being pro Islam. It uses Islam purely as a weapon, both for achieving its internal objectives as well as to obtain cheap cannon fodder for its anti-India activities. This is not based upon any theological dictate of Islam but instead purely as a political tool.

    One could argue that Taliban are Religiously Motivated and have to be dealt with accordingly.

    It is a good feeling to read that you treat individuals as individuals rather than as members of a religion. I do believe that we are similar in that respect.

    Do I hate Islam ? – As said above I know next to nothing about Islam, you know a lot more. However, I get the feeling when you say you have studied the History of Islam, then you more probably than not mean you have studied the History of Muslims. It is an easy mistake to make.

    Did Mohd Gaznavi attack India, because he was a Muslim and that religion was his sole motive? Did Mohd Gaznavi attack India because Hindus lived here and he hated Hindus? For a brief second let’s imagine that Islam did not exist and that in its place Christianity had spread to Afghanistan. Mohd Gaznavi was called Mark Ghazanopolus and all other factors were the same. If your belief is, like mine, that he would have still attacked India, then one can safely conclude that Islam contributed nothing to his decision making but something more fundamental – GREED – did. I focus on the underlying phenomenon (ESSENCE) rather than the flamboyant flavour given to it. He attacked Hindu Temples because he knew that is where some of the wealth was hidden and that they were poorly defended. His antipathy towards Hinduism was simply an unavoidable secondary motive. Had India had rich Mosques, my view is that he would have looted them too.

    So if you believe that Islam, as a religion, or as a religious philosophy, converted a peace loving Mohd Ghaznavi into a tyrant then we are at the opposite ends of the moral compass. Tyrants existed before Islam and do exist even now in all those parts of the world where Islam does not exist. We blame Islam for 1000 years of our History because it politically suits us to do so.

    This country was divided because of Religious Politics and NOT because of Religion. Had the political elite of India been able to accommodate the political ambitions of Indian Muslims, then perhaps the nation may have remained united.

    I am well aware that reservation on the basis of religion will not be a popular decision and that is why even after 3 supportive commission reports, it largely remains un-implemented.

    Apology – Should a Nation apologise to another Nation for Historical wrongs committed, should Religions apologise to other Religions, should communities apologise to other communities, etc. Extremely complex question perhaps an apt subject for discussion in a separate thread.

    Consider the following:

    Australian whites have apologised to Australian Aborigines.

    Do you think Sanatan Dharm, owes an apology to Dalits of India?

    Should USA apologise to Japan for two nuclear bombs that caused mass murders.

    Should Japan apologise to China for atrocities committed before WWII, by the Japanese occupiers?

    Should the queen of England apologise for Gen Dyers massacring of innocent Sikhs in the Jalianwallah Bagh.

    Should Spain apologise to the remaining Indian’s in Latin America for the massacre of an entire race by the conquistadors?

    I can go on.

    I do not know the answer to this complex question. My reactions are entirely emotional therefore probably not correct.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, Aaloke and Gopi.

    Thanks for different perspectives on Islam and related matters. You all made my day.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    though most of them are imaginary far away from the ground realities and facts.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Sensible reply. I understood your point of view. I may not be able to articulate the
    question I want to ask you but will try . Take the example of Pakistan military you
    have given. Agreed that their agenda is hate India and they use Islam to achieve
    their objective. Mullahs around the world use Islam to keep their people in their fold,
    which stop millions of Muslims from modernizing. Yes, all these people are greedy,
    tyrant, power hungry who use Islam to achieve there objective. Now my question is
    what is in Islam that these people believe that using Islam help them to get what they want ?
    IMO – this is my opinion only – that Islam religion has made most of its followers
    naive to understand the motive of these people who are exploiting them in the name
    of their religion. There is something in this religion – is it sacredness or fear, I do not know – that stops its follower to question Quran or Hadith.
    Why Islam cannot be blamed for these reasons only ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mohan

    The answer to your question is in theology of Islam.

    In marketing speak; all religions require a Unique Selling Proposition.
    Christianity says follow us because Jesus was the ONLY SON of GOD, so he will guide you to HIM.
    Islam says that Quran was dictated to Mohammad by an Angel (Jibrail or Gabriel) and therefore it is a message sent to Humanity by GOD himself.
    Once you develop such a USP then you have painted yourself in a corner which does not allow Interpretations. Some schools of Islamic Jurisprudence believe that GOD’s message can be INTERPRETED for each GENERATION/ERA. Others – mainly Salafi – believe that NO interpretation can be allowed because it is a message coming directly from GOD. The Salafi’s have Oil Money and are asserting their view point all over the world.
    I hope this answers your question.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    That means you agree that Islam can be blamed – partly – for the backwardness of
    its followers?

    Ravi Reply:

    Salafi’s are regressive and therefore can be blamed.

    The entirety of Islam can not be.

    Deobandi’s are regressive, Barelvi’s are less so.

    However, individuals develop their own balance between religious obervance and modernity.

    Ask Dr Shah Alam, Zakir Hussein, Dr Kalam, etc. all progressive muslims.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    According to you individuals develop their own balance between religious observance
    and modernity. You have also mentioned few names. I can add many more to this list,
    A R Rehman, SRK and Azim Premji are few examples.
    Does not it mean that backwardness of Muslims is self inflicted ?

    I will read your reply tomorrow, going to sleep now very late already.

    Ravi Reply:

    No it does not.

    There are regressive elements as well as practices in every religion, and Islam is no exception.

    How else can one explain backwardness that exists among other communities. I mentioned those in my other responses.

    Backwardness or social conservativism comes about due to complex factors of which religion is but one.

    Salafism can be said to actively shun modernity as does orthodox Judaism and certain denominations of Christianity.

    engrich Reply:

    muslims all over the world are more forward than u people.islam is complete and foeward religion.

    hinduism brings poverty that why we are 134 in list of nations.

    only in boasting we are no.1.

    engrich Reply:

    they are stupids and hate mongerers.they will not understand these.they clean the shoes of powerful speak stupidity about others.

    engrich Reply:

    Take the example of Pakistan military you
    have given. Agreed that their agenda is hate India

    hate muslim is hindu agena.what is difference.

    Why Islam cannot be blamed for these reasons only ?

    that is why 20 millions are working in muslim countries and nobody wants to leave.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    aaloke is a brainwashed rss man with rss history which is fabricated to divide society not based on historical truth.these brhmnst are big problem.people of ayodhya weeps the day they allowed these chamoleons to enter in their city.the entire history of ayodhya was fabricated.thanks god hidus of ayodhya has ultimately banned these vile.wicked and chamoleons to enter their city.ravi bahi why u are wasting ur time with this brainwashed man.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Did Mohd Gaznavi attack India, because he was a Muslim and that religion was his sole motive?

    tell this semi-literate person that mohd ghaznavi made 27 ventures in his life.19 were against muslim princess.what he wanted was money.he was not at all interested in religion.
    he is interested in religion because he makes through this game by fooling the people.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    he is interested in religion because he makes money through this game by fooling the people.
    A Like Reply

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    ~~~ PAKISTANIS LEARN FROM INDIA ~~ all the wrong things of course ! ~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————

    Two days back the COngress government created a fake assasination threat to scare Rusdhie from coming. As it wanted to chest thump its support to a certain mindset.

    Today Pakistan is using the same pretext to scare the memogate messanger Ijaz Mansoor from coming to Paksitan. Gilani is saying that providing security would cost Arabs and crores and so they will not….

    So rahul and Digivjay have finally taught the Pakistanis something… but in my view, they should have sent the CBSE sort of educational curriculam for its children and not this propensity to create fake plots…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I wish they learnt somthing better from us !

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Vinay

    Cream Floats to the Top – Vinay I guess the point you are trying to make is that reservations within the targeted Religion/Community should not be Universal but should be Means Tested. In other words what you are saying is that – If there is reservations there for Muslims, then it should be restricted to poor/backward Muslims because that is where the need is mostly concentrated, if this is a correct representation of your argument, then I am not against it.

    I can see it becoming an administrative nightmare, but in principal I agree with Means Testing within the targeted group.

    As far as my example of Social Housing in the UK is concerned, I am afraid my explanation was not clear and as a result I failed in forming a correct concept. I’ll try again.

    The reason STATE feels obliged to prioritise single mothers is not to reward this kind of behaviour, but to make sure that the innocent child does not suffer for the supposed mistakes of mother.

    Now if one was to replace in my example, the single mother with a Religion and its adherents for the child, then the STATE once again feels obliged to prioritise the unfortunate backward (therefore childish) adherents of such regressive religious practices. It therefore targets affirmative actions with a forlorn hope to encourage progressive behaviour.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Manohar Ji

    Two couplets presented here on the theme of religion. I hope you like them.

    जब के तुझ बिन नहीं कोई मौजूद ,
    फिर यह हंगामा ए खुदा क्या है

    क्यूँ न फिरदौस को दो ज़ख में मिला लें यारब
    सैर के वास्ते थोड़ी सी फ़ज़ा और सही

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks. I am not much into shers, shaairi, poetry, etc. – it is all Fred Trueman bouncers to me.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I met Trueman once, what a personality.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    when and where

    Anonymous Reply:

    In my books, he is the second best fast bowler of all time, just behind Ray Lindwall, followed by Sir RIchard Hadlee and Malcolm Marshal.

    Ravi Reply:

    He was an after dinner speaker in one of the events I attended in Bahrain.
    This must have been some 25 years ago.

  • engrich

    GOPI,

    In Kottayam, I was taken to a spot where slaves were once bought and sold. Kerala had slavery before the Christians came.. They showed me the dead bodies of their three leaders who fought the Upper Caste Nairs and Namboodiris who were enforcing slavery. The bodies are preserved even to this day.

    The whole lot of those Sambhava (Untouchable) slaves became Christians. And conversion to Christianity liberated those people. This is what the victims of Hinduism told us.

    will u apolige for ur ur atrocities on innocent pople of kerala.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Also note that girls are still purchased for harems by Saudi sheikhs from hyedrabad.

    go there first to liberate them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Perez,

    I will tell a story. It is true as I know this person.
    This happened about 25 years ago.
    A gentleman from here went to Hyderabad to get a wife for himself , according to him
    it was cheaper to marry an Indian than an Arab. When he came back his friends asked
    him about his trip. He said, I am repeating his words ‘ not only I got a wife for myself,
    but also I got me a mother . I have brought wife for my father ‘.
    Earlier these things were rampant, but not any more.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    yes this happens when a certain race is pushed into poverty.arabs dont marry indian women.in hyderabad there are lot of families of arab orign who became destitute when nizam army was not inducted into indian army.these hungry families used to give their girls.this help them alot.now they have bunglws in best areas of hyderababd,their sons studying best english school.

    all over the history arabs are known for hospitality, generosity and bravery. the quality very scare among banias and brhmns.that is why u pray to extend ur stay in dubai.

    engrich Reply:

    i asked awnser frm gopi.poor arabs used to marry girls from arab families of hyderabad.after marrying girls will take entire family to gulf.get them jobs and improve future.after partition families of arab origin became destitute.so that was great help to those hungry people.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Salaam namaste everyone from delhi Univ !

    Seems that the topic is still Islam ! O Boy ! Some solutions are so simple and this debate so complex. It is all about mindsets and education, especially female education, silly.

    Let me again repeat that the real problem in India is about educational opportunities for all, especially Muslims who for internal and external reasons do NOT go to mainstream schools and colleges. I have quoted my experience of all India Engineering and medical exams which are NOT held in urdu and so place Muslims from minority institutions at a disadvantage, the solution of course being not to create an entire medical knowldege in urdu, but to get Muslims to aspire for English education. At tiems an old fundoo could well scare an entire village that the boys will be sterilsed with a polio injection and the girls “spoilt.”

    Please do not wish reservation in jobs for all Muslims as this will lead to resentment. Maybe for all minorites/ or for poor Muslims under whatever name. Even if 80% Muslims qualify under this scheme, it would at least spare us the embarresment of being labelled laggards just because of religion.

    Invite us to your house and come to ours. Dine with us and we will dine with you. There will be a 100 reasons for friction but maybe a million for breaking walls of distrust. There are chances you will encounter the engriches, but you will also meet the Rizwans. You may not be able to change the engriches but the Rizwans will inspire the rest of us not to look for imaginary grieviences and ideologies which have nothing to do with Indian problems. Most of all don’t let the politicians treat us vote banks who need to be separated from the rest just get our votes.

    Salaam namaste and goodnight to all !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    parvez–

    great!

    all gud ideas.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Perez,

    Great post. Let me be the first on this blog to invite you. Next month I will be in India
    from 4th till 21st. Give me your email address or send me an email on
    melody_enterprises@hotmail.com. Would love to meet you.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ….

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    No, I did not read Parveen Swami’s article and will not do so because paucity of time.
    But I think, these two examples, BCCI and Kumbha mela are like Apples and Oranges.
    The mere thought of government abdicating its responsibilities to maintain law and order, preventing epidemics and possible loss of lives in hundreds because of stampede in an unorganized milieu as things drift. That will be a distaer of gargantuan proportion.
    Ijtemas of Muslims are also a huge affair and again, for the same reasons, government must maintain its presence felt, through the presence of its branches.
    In west, any such huge gathering will bring out government in its full force/ preparation.Though by and large, every department is at its best, even in ordinary times.
    Sorry Manohar, I do not agree with your point of view this time.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    everybody should administrative security and maintenace charges.whether hindu or muslims.if hindu spoils rivers there should be specila charge on them
    foe cleaning.brhmns never go to rivers but they send others to pollute this.cleaning bill should not be paid by taxpayers.no haj subsidy as well.like in america.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    everybody should pay administrative

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    Of course, law and order is the responsibility of the state. Pity that you are unable to read the full article, where details of the expenditure involved are given it is not only deployment of police, then you would have realised what I was talking about.

    We need not agree on everything. My central point is that the Government has to get out of funding of religious rituals.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi and Aaloke, Dont get much time for blogging. Also I am not a one liner man. Every post is a considered opinion, it takes around 50 mins to compose .
    Aaloke you look at Hinduism with a rose tinted glass , and islam with a distorted lens.
    Ravi , you post lines that raises that question mark about your neutrality, Like Muslim Invasion did not have religion as its focal point and it was all for money, UTTER BOLLOCKS. Taimur Lung slaughtered ONE LAKH hindus, this is recorded in Taimur’s biography by ? Hafiz, apparently the CLERIC (gazi) himself took delight in slaughtering few himself. Now I am not going to pass any value judgement on it.
    MUSLIM INVADERS ALSO RAZED TO GROUND SOME 1000 TEMPLES IN NORTHERN INDIA(Source Nirad Choudhari/Vivekananda)
    Then again ISLAM HAD ALSO SUFFERED SIMILAR FATE AT THE HANDS OF HALAKU KHAN. Baghdad was sacked and the GREATEST LIBRARY of its time was set to fire.
    Hindus can only MOAN , they DIDN’T BECAUSE THEY COUDN’T.Though Ravi reminds us Wendy Doniger has bag full of evidence of hindu atrocity.
    But HINDU RELIGION IS THE WORST RELIGION WHEN IT COMES TO SOCIAL ORGANISATION.It is not a CONGREGATIONAL RELIGION , there is no concept of COMMUNAL EATING TOGETHER, forget about eating , they would take bath if the shadow of dalit touched them. This coupled with VEGETARIAN DIET , what chance do you think Hindu kings had. ALSO USE OF ELEPHANTS AGAINST THE ARAB HORSES WAS THE DECIDING FACTOR , AS WAS RELIANCE ON ASTROLOGY.When Japan first came in contact with westerners (SHOGUN) , they realised they were no match for STRONG TALL BUILT WHITE FOLKS.The Emperor summoned the Buddhist head priest , and TOLD HIM JAPANESE NEED TO EAT BEEF AND JUNK VEGETARIANISM AS ADVOCATED BY THE BUDDHIST PRIEST SO AS TO CATCH UP WITH THE WESTERNERS.As much Hindu philosophy is “interesting” , HINDU SOCIETY HAS SOME BASIC FLAWS.As i had mentioned before ZERO ATTEMPT TO INCLUDE ANYBODY INTO YOUR FOLD(Proselytisation)
    Lot of faith in ASTROLOGY and the related MUMBO JUMBO,
    NO TRADITION OF WRITING DOWN HISTORY, even though they had come in contact with greeks 2000yrs ago.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    shan best of hindu temples were also built during muslim rule.yes temples were alsodestroyed but the reason was more political than religious.many states run by hindu rulers were not performing well hence annexed by delhi rulers use to keep arms and ammunition in those places.can u name a single known or respected temple destroyed by moghul ruler.this is propaganda than truth.all 4 dhams of shankaracharya were built during moghul period.gurdwara sees gunj in chandni chowk delhi was always in range of moghul cannons,but never a single shot was fired.land to built golden temple was donated by muslims.brhmns tried their level best to put ban on granth.rejected by akbar.

    now main problem is brhmsts are destrying our cities,,

    . .
    If the Christian West is being continuously punished by the zionists for not obeying its dictates, in India the 2% Brahminists, “the Jews of India”, are killing the country itself. They have devastated the entire countryside. After this job is successfully accomplished, now they have turned to the cities where the Brahminists are concentrated. Calcutta, the original land from where the “Hindu terrorism” took its birth, was the first to be killed. Madras has turned into one vast slum. Bombay, the country’s richest and the most populous city, is dying fast. Delhi has become chaotic and also unsafe — though it is the seat of the country’s govt. Bangalore city is dying fast. Hyderabad remains the only exception but the Brahminist killers dare not touch the city because 30% of its population is Muslim. So they have adopted the trick of Telengana which may oust its Muslim population.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    All Islamic invasions of India, whether for looting (like Ghazni’s) or for permanency (like Babur), had religion as an important factor with forced conversions and killing of the ones who would not convert. So, Ravi’s statement that Gazni just happened to be Muslim and he would have done the looting even if he was not a Muslim and instead a Greek is little disingenuous, colouring his rendering.

    And the story was same for the Ottoman runs and all the runs before that.

    There is no evidence of mopping, mowing and converting when Rajaaja chola expanded to Thailand and Cambodia, the only Indian king to venture out of the land boundaries.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    MANOHAR AND PARVEZ”””””””””””’

    I made a post on kumbh mela and homosexuality proselytisation in primary schools in UK. Two people responded.

    Parvez said something sensible “Is this explicit sex education in UK encouraging the kids to go for practicals?” Yes, that is true Parvez, too late the UK govt is waking up to the fact that screening homosexual plays in primary school called ROMEO AND JULIAN, yes julian, is to put it mildly, perverse.

    MANOHAR on the other hand did not read my post at all at and became smarmy from word go. Patronising and snide remarks like “your slip is showing” to “you know the way too Heathrow” left me nauseous at his arrogance.

    To be honest I had never enjoyed Manohar’s long boring posts or the totally meaningless tu-tu main-main he indulges in regularly, always wanting the last word. I only addressed him directly in the new spirit of togetherness on this blog.

    But like with everything else, MANOHAR missed that completely. I shall not be interacting with him again. Have a good life

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good bye.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    the congressie troll has already banned you before you could say that you would not be interacting with him.

    At this rate, he will only interact with himself (Narsissus?) and with the two fakes, Ravi and engrich, the jihadis, with whom he is extremely thick and chummy. Perhaps that is the instruction he has received from Digvinash Singh!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Pervez, the problem with muslim society is THE COWARDICE OF RATIONAL MUSLIMS .That you have worthies like M J AKBAR amongst you doesn’t help.This geezer opposed alimony to SHAH BANO and thus sided with mullahs . ONLY INDIAN MUSLIM TO GO DOWN IN HISTORY FOR HAVING HIS NECK STUCK OUT will be ARIF MOHD KHAN , and that poor fellow didn’t even say anything about the slime that envolopes current islam , yet we all know what happened to him. NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM PERSON HAS OME UNEQUIVOCALLY SUPPORTING RUSHDIE , COUNTLESS HINDUS HAVE MARCHED IN SUPPORT OF HUSSAIN.
    Unless YOUR CLASS rises against the tyranny of MULLAHS not much will change.If I had my way , I would fly TEJAS over the deoband seminary and carpet bomb that place . IT IS THE VILEST PLACE ON EARTH.
    If you visit its website , and go to the question answer section, you will come across this advice given by deoband , to an innocent muslim who had visited a hindu temple with his school friends. HE IS TOLD TO UTTER TAUBA TAUBA 10000 times seeking penance from Allah.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    A SINGLE MUSLIM PERSON HAS OME UNEQUIVOCALLY SUPPORTING RUSHDIE

    no muslim can support him as he abused their prophet.criticism ok.but abuse not accepted.
    regarding mf hussain,naked is par of hindu culture.kaali is shown naked in every temple.he has drwan the painting which was painted millions of times before by hindu painters.so attack by vhp was opposed by literary/libral section
    of india as .vhp communalized the matter.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,
    Have you turned Islamophobic? At least think of poor Ravi and Manohar who depend on your support.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shaan,

    I must give it to you: even when you commit blasphemy, you do it in style.

    But, must you hurt the religious sentiments of the congressi troll, fake Sikh Ravi and fake Ram Autar?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan

    You hit the nail on the head – the cowardice of rational Muslims. It may be due to the fact of their small numbers. There are some who do – e.g. Javed Akhtar, Asgar Ali Engineer, but not in a critical mass so as to make a difference.

    Poor Arif Mohammad Khan. No party wants him to touch him with a barge pole.

    The Deoband Seminary would be more at home in regimes like Saudi Arabia than in India. Is it the case of more medieval than the faith itself? Do the mullahs know and realise how much damage they are causing to their flock, by their idiotic fatwas, which are totally out of sync with the 21st century?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    Arif Mohammad Khan is my hostel fellow.he is pure opportunist.this was game.husband of that was paying 500/month as help.supreme court recommended her irs 172 only.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar,
    Sometime back, there was a furore over BJP government’s decision to privatise Udupi temple in Karnataka. Arguments thrown in were the lapse of income generated by the temple towards the government (lakhs of Rs everyday). For the counter argument, I heard how government has “nationalized” the temples by having a Mujrai Dept and an officer for revenue collection. I came to know, how government has taken control over temple lands of Tirupati and used them for commercial reasons, where as it does not do the same for mosques or churches.

    You compare Kumbhamela with BCCI. Revenue from tickets and marketing is collected by BCCI. If government is not supposed to provide infrastructure, then why should temples and their treasures(Like Padmanabha temple) become government’s property? If those revenues are given, any private provider will do. If you don’t want to take the responsibility, then don’t own one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinoo

    Hindus are eunuchs to let the govt take over the temples, its lands, its income and yack about secularism..See whether the govt will ever touch Malankara Sabha’s (the dominant church here) properties in keral, ,or Wakf board properties all over India.

    The same spineless Hindus who let the Northern invaders run over them are repeating history by letting the secular govt to run over their religious insttutions. And the secularist of all, Jawaharlal Nehru had the audacity to block the construction of Somnath temple (that was razed by Muslim invaders 7 times) with government funds!

    Imagine if GOI or Sheila Dixit’s Administration took over Juma Masjid..Will blood flow or what?

    btw I have been to Udipi Sri krishna temple and the nearby Mookambika temple once t attend KJ jesudas concert. He sings kirtans/performs classical music at Mookambika temple for the annual Nvarathri celebration,

    .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Only if the succeeding generations of politicians had followed (in letter and spirit) Pandit Nehru. We would not have this mess – government ’subsidies’ for religious purposes, including the most irksome to many – Haj.

    It he had not blocked the funds, then today a major chunck of the government revenue would be spent on renovating / reconstructing temples, churches, mosques, gurudwaras and what have you of every denomination, size and faith – the State is not supposed to discriminate. Perhaps, we would have had a Ministry of Repairs of Shrines, with a lot of corruption thrown in.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    look how the congressi troll has justified Nehru’s stout opposition to the renovation of Somnath temple.

    That sardar Patel went ahead regardless of the atheist Nehru’s opposition to it and had the temple renovated is a great story indeed.

    This opposition comes only when Hindu temples are to be repaired, renovated. Opposition turns to ready acquiescence, approval and willing participation with funds when mosques are concerned.

    That also doesn’t stop the governments from dipping their hands into the hundis of temples like Tirupati, Guruvayur and thousands of other small and big temples. Atheists and agnostics take the lead in running down Hindu customs and rituals etc, at the same time looting their gods and temples. Rajashekhar Reddy, a Christian, had the temerity even to appoint Christian workers inside the holy temple of Lord Venkateshwara!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay

    My view that the Government must get out of the business of financing religious beliefs and practises also necessarily includes opposition to taking over of shrines and managing them by the state(*). Was there any doubt?

    * At most, there can be regular statutory audits (of course this would be a minefield) of all the major temples, mosques, churches. gurudwaras, etc. and the balance sheets made public.

    We all know the reasons as to why the Governments (read politicians) tend to take over shrines – to get hold over the finances of the shrines – which then can be used to consolidate the other (ultimate) power – political. We also know the reasons as to why the politicians tend not to take over shrines – mosques, churches, gurudwaras, Buddhist temples, etc. belonging to other faiths. It is politics – plain and simple. It is politics everywhere.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Gopi,

    “….For that matter how can we hold an Abdul from today’s Junagadh responsible for what Ghazni Mohamed plundered and looted at Somnath thousand years ago? Or let us say he wants to apologize for his great great great great great…grandfather Ghazni – whom does he apologize to?..”

    There is another angle. How did Persian Ghazni became great great great great great…grandfather of Abdul. This man’s colour tells me, his ancestors are linked more with my ancestors than having any Persian lineage.

    Shivaji did not fight for a “Hindu Rashtra” over a “Muslim Ruler”. He might not have known what is Hindu then. He just fought for the freedom of native “Marathas” over an Afghan Afzal Khan. Who knows, today’s Maratha Muslim’s forefathers might have been in the army of Shivaji. (This probability is more than their probability of serving Afzal Khan). But still Shivaji belongs to Hindus and Muslims want to hold Urs in Afzal Khan tomb. Confused identities.

    In one of the earlier posts, Ravi alleged RSS wants to post Rama and Krishna (Oh! I have that back lag of my post on RSS. Sorry Mohan. First thought few more days, now changed to few weeks) as the new poster of Gods of Hinduism. To me Ramayana, Mahabharat, Geeta came before the religious labels started appearing and we started to assign ourselves as Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc. They belong to whole of India (in fact to whole subcontinent), irrespective of our religion just like Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey belong to whole of Greece, not just to any religion. (By the way I appreciate your response to Rajeev. Q: You quote Geeta more than Bible. A: I am proud of my heritage. Q: Do you consider changing to Hinduism. A: Why would I, why should I? ) Today if these Gods have got associated with just one religion, it is not because of an organisation. It is the hesitation of other community to say, “these epics are not the proprietary of one religion alone. We are equal share holders, irrespective of our faith/whom we pray.”

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Just a comment.
    Shivaji’s Topchi( responsible for managing Cannons) was a muslim. He rather worked for Shivaji than Shaista Khan/ Afzal Khan.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    his naval chief was also muslim.he was born with dua of a muslim peer.
    his son sambhajee was killed by brhms for opposing mughals.shivajee was bstrd.brhmns claim he was their son.whenever in financial trouble,shivajee lways looted banias of surat.like peshwas of poona always looted temples of shankaracharya.there was no communal divide.

    this great work was done by rss.before kings used to fight but subjects were friendly.tilak who wrote requested britishers not to harass him as he is foreigner.he made him communal by showing him hindu.benaras robbed him of every penny when he showed his intention to become king.a request rejected by maharashtrian brhmns.after ceremoney he has to rob surrounding banias banarsi thugs made him bankrupt.

    anybody has objection please debate.thank u for reading.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay

    “Shivaji did not fight for a “Hindu Rashtra” over a “Muslim Ruler”. He might not have known what is Hindu then. He just fought for the freedom of native “Marathas” over an Afghan Afzal Khan. Who knows, today’s Maratha Muslim’s forefathers might have been in the army of Shivaji. (This probability is more than their probability of serving Afzal Khan). But still Shivaji belongs to Hindus and Muslims want to hold Urs in Afzal Khan tomb. Confused identities”.

    Right on.

    IMO, giving only communal colour to events of yore (no denying there may have been some religious divide) is of very recent vintage in order to create enemies today (us – vs – they), who else would they beat in order to justify themselves and their ideology/faith. Nefarious indeed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinay,
    “Shivaji did not fight for a “Hindu Rashtra” over a “Muslim Ruler”. He might not have known what is Hindu then. He just fought for the freedom of native “Marathas” over an Afghan Afzal Khan. Who knows, today’s Maratha Muslim’s forefathers might have been in the army of Shivaji.”
    Shivaji represented emergence of Maratha / Marathi power against the central rule. Even , perhaps, to the extent of representing emerging Marathi Nationality . It is Shiv-Sena’s sectarian politics in past few decades that has resulted in distortion of the great Maratha king.

    ” To me Ramayana, Mahabharat, Geeta came before the religious labels started appearing and we started to assign ourselves as Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc. They belong to whole of India (in fact to whole subcontinent), irrespective of our religion just like Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey belong to whole of Greece, not just to any religion.”
    IMHO, you are both right and wrong at the same time.
    Yes, there are several things which span beyond religion. HOWEVER, Ramayana and Mahabharat may not necessarily be the ones – more specifically from the perspective of comparison with Homer’s Iliad.
    A very basic reason for me negating these is sheer geographical spread of the sub-continent with all its ancient local histories.
    A common narrative of Ramayana and Mahabharat would necessarily imply a strong central contemporary rule spanning much larger spread – essentially pan-Indian in nature.
    Instead , I would rather focus on something more nearer – which would be language and similarities in caste structure within the geographical spread across religions. Surely it is not by accident that we have Marathi speaking , Tamil speaking , Mallu speaking Muslims.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    this is wrong to say that mahabharat took place anywhere in india.ram also never born or original ayodhya ever existed on indian soil.indians in general and innocent people of ayodhya are the victim of this brhmncl fraud.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    robbing of somnath was great act,as it provided jobs to millions of indians.this evil practice of hoarding and hiding money in temples was started from egypt.
    mishraas(people from misr)brought this technology to india.lack of cash destroyed the great civilization of paroahas.in those days they built underground cities.that is why brhmns are always busy in dividing india and society.
    today india need many hindu ghaznavis to bring dead wealth hidden in temples and ashrams/durgahs /churches back into circulation again.this will increase salaryof common indian 4 times.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Good to know you still remember, that you have to write your views on RSS.
    It seems you are very busy in your work, I will just remind you of one proverb I had
    posted a while ago.

    The amount of money that’s in your bank at the time of death,
    is the extra work you did which was not necessary.

    Waiting eagerly for your views.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinay

    Absolutely superb. I agree 100%

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mohan

    Your question 36 hours ago has been answered in the affirmative.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi,

    I would like to conclude from my side to the conversation we had last evening.

    I understand your point of you. You have a very good command on English language
    and you put your points across very effectively — I wish I could do that – .
    Yesterday I said that your reply was sensible, but, I forgot to add that it will seem
    to be sensible to few people and some will not agree with your view . Though I respect
    your views but I also belong to that group of people who do not believe in your views
    on this subject. You have only blamed the leaders, while giving a clean chit to
    the followers of this religion. We are not talking about few hundreds or few thousands
    but millions and millions of followers who believe in extremism in their religion.
    Without the mass following leaders have no value. Endless killings in Pakistan,
    Afghanistan, Iraq and just two days back in Nigeria where 150 people were killed
    in the name of religion, are the clear signs of this extremism. People are killed
    for the simple reason of not believing in their type of Islam. Spreading of Wahabism
    using oil money is a recent phenomenon, where as the extremism was always
    there and people were killed for this reason. Partition is the result of that. Yes, there
    are many branches of Islam, like Sufisim, who do not adhere to this type of Islam
    but are powerless to do anything about this.

    About the backwardness in muslims and other castes. I would stick to my views
    that at present time they are self inflicted. There are ample opportunities available
    for them to come out of this rut if they want to. Blaming others for their misfortunes
    and living in denial is not going to help their cause. This will only help our politicians
    to exploit them more.

    Dubai is a place where liberal Islam is practiced. Everybody lives in harmony.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    saudi is better than dubai.from jakarta atleast 2 of hindu friends dont want to come back india as they love society and harmony in surrounding.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    during muslim rule we also live in harmony.i challanged rss liar gopi to give reference of a single brhmn who was opposed to muslim rule,or any underground movement against them.he ran away.now u ask him to awnser.
    zhoot bol ke bhagna achcha nahin hota hai.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    where there is oil there is mayhem.nothing to do with islam or mulims.zoinists and brhmnst are in root of all the problems world is facing.they are itching for 3rd world war.i also welcome this.may be these 2 satanic forces will;world will have peace.

    brhmnst brings poverty.during budhdha days india was poor.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~~ RELIGIOUS ABUSE AND ALL THAT !!~~~~~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    Since the topic has been raised and some fingers pointed, unfairly, let state my position.

    Let me again state I would have NEVER abused any religion on this forum.

    I know the shortcomings of all religions, including my own. However I instantly react to an attack on Hinduism or for that matter, India, in case it is unfair and unnecessary and an attempt to subvert the topic like corruption where opponents of Anna started attacking Hinduism.

    In personal life I rarely visit temples and may have gone to more churches than temples.

    But I worship the sun, the earth, the plants, the water and find it fascinating that the Hindus of ancient time did the same. And further on, in the work I do, I have now started worshipping the physics of this universe that is air pressure, gravity, light, sound, heat. Like I said I am a bit of a nut case!

    Of course I have little time for karma theories which justify caste heirarchies and rituals which give power to the priest.– In any religion.

    Hinduism is a huge ancient philosphy which should continue forever, not limited by my own limitations of thoughts. Any unfair attacks on it and any Engrich like attacks to make fun of it or eradicate it in terms of the liberal intrepretation of it can only meet with a reprisal for me. With Ravi, my position is nuetral. As long as he blogs without those unfair attacks we will live together on this planet. In case he picks up cudgels on behalf of fundamantalists, then the battle which started in Sialkot in 1947, goes on…

    That is life….

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    his naval chief was also muslim.he was born with dua of a muslim peer.
    his son sambhajee was killed by brhms.shivajee was bstrd.brhmns claim he was their son.whenever in financial trouble,shivajee lways looted banias of surat.like peshwas of poona always looted temples of shankaracharya.there was no communal divide.

    this great work was done by rss.before kings used to fight but subjects were friendly.tilak who wrote requested britishers not to harass us as foriegner.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    .tilak who wrote requested britishers not to harass us as foriegner.played a leading role in dividing society.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    tilak who wrote& requested britishers not to harass him as he is foriegner.played a leading role in dividing society

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mahesh, That documentary (THE INSIDER JOB) did not touch on Macro or Micro Economic theories , because its premise was that was PURE GREED AND WHOLESALE CORRUPTION THAT INCLUDES EVEN AMERICAN ACADEMIA, AND NOTHING ELSE , that brought about the meltdown in wall street.
    If you remember one of the lines in that documentary was , NOT A SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN THE FIASCO HAS BEEN CONVICTED , YET IN A INDUSTRY RIFE WITH DRUG TAKING AND ILLEGAL INVOICING FOR SERVICES OF PROSTITUTES ,
    it would not have been difficult to milk information from the offenders

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Agreed. IMHO, while one cannot really deny the role of greed there are systemic causes when Capital chases speculation to create Asset bubbles.
    What happened in US was huge Real Estate bubble (Asset bubble).

    On a different Note – read through at folllowing for Evolution “In The Works” in human species.
    http://bigthink.com/ideas/40500?page=all
    Partiularly interesting is the ApolipoProtein thing. If my memory serves correctly – BBC once carried an article on certain genetic makeup responsible for large pre-valence of heart disease in India.(I Remember it rather vaguely – will post the link later if I am able to locate it).

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The cowardice of rational Muslims:

    The question has been raised and here is my answer, an answer which I will probably not give in my hometown or in front of twenty people as you guessed it, I am not in politics.

    This is not so much cowardice as it is silence. Why? Most Political parties in India woo us by saying that islam is in danger and the principal opposition party tells its supporters that Islam is a danger to you. In case MUSLIMS actually tried a radically different approach of not becoming a votebank for one party but instead diffused themselves in important postions in all parties, and got in national issues into their lives, the situation would change. But this is an idea , which I am pessimistic about given the current global situation where we end up feeling that it is Muslims versus the conspirators.

    The important issues to woo Muslims have become exempting madrassas from RTE, religious reservations, protection of personal law and what not. Not one issue which flies them to the cutting edge of he 21st century.

    Unfortunately and very unfortunately, we are supposed to pray facing Mecca and somehow end up praying at Saudia. Global forces have made Saudia a kingdom which depends on the west for survival and uses this to repress its citizenry from the road to democracy and open thought.

    The huge change will come in case political parties adopt people like Abdul Kalam and Amir Khan as mascots and not the current lot of self seekers.

    In the end it can only be small, tiny individuals like me or for that matter Rizwan or other individuals who are not afraid to break the mould and challenge status quo. Yet to do it at mass level requires good schools where debate and enquiry is encouraged and assimilation the norm.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez,

    Once again a very good post. Regarding your comment about Abdul Kalam and Aamir Khan, I partly agree with you. Yes such people will bring small
    change but huge change has to come from the people who are suffering. They have to
    realize the problems ailing them and only they can solve them. Once people stop politicians to exploit them, then these politicians will have no choice
    but to bring in better policies which will be beneficial to all.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope it does happen that way, though frankly I dont see it happening too fast. Azim Premji, my role model went about his business quietly without flaunting his minority credentials. Maybe he could start some movement in education and enterprise.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez

    He is already doing so and is doing it quietly.

    http://www.azimpremjifoundation.org

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan Sir,

    I do not think Sh Abdul Kalam or Mr Aamir Khan can really even attempt to go against the general mass sentiment, particularly if it has anything to do with the religion. The moment they try to do it, they will be buried under piles of abuses.

    It’s not about rational Muslims or Hindus. Rational people are always in minority. Very few can risk their neck out.

    Just look around. You will have many examples.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Prahlad,

    unknown to you yourself, you have said the right thing.

    Abdul Kalam is today the hero only for a minority of geeks and educated, mostly Hindu India.

    Sonia Gandhi had a chance to earn the goodwill of this section of Indians, but, being a foreigner herself and not having even the remotest idea of what an Indian ascetic means, she lost a great chance bashtrapati Bhawan.

    engrich Reply:

    prahald,
    plight of muslims is due to exploitation not religion.hindu fascist leaders want them to reconvert and become their obedient slave like before.which is not possible.they know hindus will give god,what they want is better life.this war was started 3000 years ago with the arrivalof brhmns on scene.ashok killed entire population of halinga. will continue.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mohan

    I think change will happen through some huge emotional inational ssue . The world cup victory could have been such an occassion, but unfortunately the IPL 6 days later hijacked the issue.

    Role models have ot pave the way. Pervez is right baout Abdul Kalam. His gentle approach made him loved by all. By Engrich on one side and me ont he other :)

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    abdul kalam was made president by bjp to hide the failure of atom bomb explosion.he comes in 1%creamy layer of muslim society.cannot be an example.policies are made for 99%.their plight should be addressed.amir khan is from a landlord family of hardoi.he is lucky one but also very intellegnt.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Parvez-
    Good point.
    You may (or may not be) aware of this – Sri Abdul Kalam has been portrayed in some quarters as a “lesser Muslim’ because he is a vegetarian. And also he attributes his success and interest in science/mathematics to a Brahmin high school teacher.
    I have never seen a President of India as admired by its people and more importantly its youth as Sri Kalam. It is a shame UPA did not keep him, and brought in a trash rubber stamp to occupy the highest office. (Dr Rajendra Prasad, Dr RadhaKrishnan,——- Dr Abdul Kalam , Srimathi Pratibha Patil –Uh????

    Govt does have a role, so also Muslim (and other) communities. In Kerala, the late Dr Abdul Gafoor started the muslim Educational society of Kerala (www.meskerala.com/) in early 1960s on the models of the pioneering Christian educational institutions; they have grown into 60 or so institutions, I believe they operate even out of the state now.

    Govt should focus on targeted areas instead of an “all India” program as I mentioned in a prior blog. The Muslim backwardness (as well as backwardness in general) and the Muslim population concentration is mostly in the “venn” diagram between Bihar, UP, and West Bengal. A focused program with govt, NGO, community associations should create results. The metrics of Sourth Indian Muslims (may be except AP/Hyderaabd), I believe , is close to (or equal or may be even better than) the majority communities in those regions, and significantly better than the all India average for all the population and especially Muslim population.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    the kerala muslim edu society is http://www.meskerala.com

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    yes we spreading education while u people are planning civil war in kerala and convert it into another somalia.

    engrich Reply:

    gopi i hopeu will agree with me, SUB-STANDARD UNIVERSITIES
    Out of the 190 countries or so as members of the United Nations, India’s rank is 134. And it is going down. But Our universities are producing sub-standard doctors, engineers, lawyers and other professionals. What a shame.
    Even after 62 years of “independence” our literacy rate (in Indian languages) is not even 30%. English knowing population is not even 3%. Over 70% illiterate.
    And this 3% people are 90% upper castes and enemies of the 85% of the population. And it is these people who are attacking churches/mosques gurudwaras and our nuns/mullahs/and nihangs.. How can India progress?
    Kerala is an exception to this rule. In Karnataka, no school is functioning in villages.
    MOTHER TONGUE MANIA
    But in Bangalore, all upper castes, meaning the rich, are going to English-medium schools and jumping forward. But our people are working as clerks and peons, brainwashed by the Brahmin-created “mother tongue mania”.
    i

    engrich Reply:

    between Bihar, UP, and West Bengal.

    gopi muslims of that area were most enlightened.after 1857 britishers
    crushed them in every field because they were in forefont of resistence.they were killed humiliated looted by occupation helped by indian traitors.hinus are as backward as muslims barring bania(thieve)and brhmns.reservation is a bribe to lower caste to remain in hindu folds and bear humiliation and insult.they also came
    muslims are hardworking and intellegent community very we will you behind in every field.till muslims dont come in power u close minded people cannot do anything except hoarding money ..country be built by people of character not by close minded thieves.

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  • Anonymous

    @Pankaj,
    When I spoke about today’s Muslims forefathers in Shivaji’s army, I not just meant Shivaji had Muslims in his army. I wanted to say, their forefathers could then have been Hindus (Marathas) as well, who got converted lately. (Conversion has been a gradual process).

    @Mahesh,
    I remember me and Shoeb discussing once, how in South (India) and Bengal regional identity overrides religious identity. Agree with your point. But also, stories of Ramayana or Mahabharat have been etched in rural folks of any religion. Just that other communities do not associate themselves with it.

    @Manohar,
    When you say state should not get involved with religious institutions, do you mean to say treasures of Padmanabha temple should have been under the custody of king’s children, not with the Government? (It was not clear to me).

    One can agree or disagree with Mishra’s views. (I have disagreement with many). But why should one get away from a country if he does not like certain aspect of a system? A native British also might have same concern, where should he go? End of the day, it is up to those people to make choice regarding their life. We can agree or disagree with the points raised, why the need to personalise? I presumed you discuss issues, not people

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    engrich Reply:

    I wanted to say, their forefathers could then have been Hindus (Marathas) as well, who got converted lately. (Conversion has been a gradual process).

    they were pathans.not converted.they were handsome.marathas were ugly and black.they were expert in use of cannons,brought with him.except khatris all other races were prohibited to learn martial arts,

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  • concerned

    Agree. Changing the law to ensure that those proven guilty of rape are given the harshest punishments. Hanging them won’t solve anything. Lifetime without parole in Rigourous imprisonment would be a major deterrent. Including, castratiion (chemically) and a public flogging to ensure shame. Rape is not motivated by sex but the need for “power” ove rthe weak, meek and innocent.

    What is also required a complete re-traning and recruitment of the police force. Do you think any woman will ever walk into a police station to complain about rape. Nearly all the guys in uniform are THUGS and evoke fear rather than help or sympathy that is sought.

    Delhi has never been safe. Right from the ealry 60’s. Nothign has changed and the ocndition have now detoriated so badly that fear reigns on the streets. Women must be able to roam freely and without fear. Until this is reached. The state has abrogated its duty to its citizens.

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  • whatever99

    Almost all politicians are Gang Leaders
    in India-These are LAW MAKERS

    Almost all Police officers are corrupt In
    today’s India–These are LAW ENFORCERERS

    More than 50% Jurors are
    corrupt -GOD can only save India-HCs and SCs can,t control entire India.

    Indian youngers should rise to the occasion.Make organised protests and make a change the above three wings of the Govt.

    Law and order is only possible with people’ full support anywhere in the world.

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  • girl

    blind them in public, castrate them, remove their reproductory organs, cut their hands and leave them on roads to die

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  • xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    live greasing of their faces and rubbing their personal part on the road and sixty minute rigrous punishment span and strict trial.
    Tell the national capital police and its heads to wear bangles and dance on the streets as spinless man

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  • Mia

    Visiting victims is just so cliche and hardly of any use..according to me by doing this politicians are not sharing the victim’s grief rather just SHOWING the nation that they support the victim and sympathize withe the victim. It can easily be related to political agenda and more or less it is usually so. A better way for the politicians to show their support would be by nursing the victim’s grief rather than sharing it. They should take actions that would bring justice to the victim.

    As far as blackening the faces goes..it seems pretty dramatic but its the best way to treat those who uphold ideas like “traditional Indian girls won’t do this,wear that..” because the muh-kaala thing for them would mean a big deal as much as honour killings do for them. Parading would surely be very shameful for them but best would be when they are paraded without blackened faces,as fully recognisable identities. Their identities should be revealed so that all know who were the ones that did that heinous crime. Many might come up with the idea that this would mar their second chance at life ,i.e. if they go through achange of heart,but then life would not be that liberal on the victim. No matter how much we hate it,our society is such that atleast for some time she would be struggling to exist in this society. And what about the mental trauma she might have to go through?..So why should the criminals get it to be easy? They shouldn’t.

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  • Paddy

    such culprits should be made to loose their manhood and scar mark on their face as a mark to confirm they are rapist and they have been punished. Such culprits will have the pain of their act all their life

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  • Suraiya

    Look within the family itself. No woman dares to ‘criticize’ her husband or there are always other women to shut her up! Men are taught that they are always right and above reproach in the family sphere which is unfortunate.

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  • tens unit

    tens unit…

    Blacken their faces for a public ride : @ Hindi Heartland…