India views China, another look



The Lowy Institute of Australia has come out with a poll on Indian views of the world that deserves commendation. For one thing, no one in India bothers to carry out such detailed surveys. It is doubly commendable because it includes both rural and urban populations and asked questions in vernacular languages as well.

Finally, it deserves commendation because it asked an upfront question that every survey on Indian attitudes towards China avoids asking: do you consider China to be a security threat? Most surveys ask “do you approve of China” or “do you think China’s rise is good for your country”. But both these would elicit a different set of responses.

For example, the latest BBC Globescan survey of global opinions shows that world opinion on India is now more negative than positive. But this is probably about corruption, a slowing economy and the anti-rape protests. However, I suspect almost no one would see India as a threat.

The figure Lowy Institute came up with is quite stunning with 60 per cent of Indians agreeing China is major threat, 22 per cent agreeing it is a minor threat. Only Pakistan scores higher or is even close to this in magnitude. I have often warned Chinese that there past few years of erratic behaviour meant Indians were replacing Pakistan with their country as Enemy Number One.

Have Indians always seen China this way? I don’t think so. A quick look at previous surveys would seem to support this. A 2012 Pew Survey asked Indians if they saw their relations with China as one of conflict or cooperation and the answer was dead even: 24% (though this rose to 40% among urbanites) vs 23%. A Chicago Council of Foreign Relations-Asia Society poll in 2006 said 43% of Indians saw the rise of China as a “critical” threat to the vital interests of their country.

Most striking was a BBC Globescan 2006 report where Indians overwhelming voted in favour of China as a positive global influence: 46 to 15%. Can’t see that happening again in a while.

If other polls confirm the Lowy numbers, it would mark a significant increase in anti-China sentiment in India. Sadly, Lowy has yet to give the breakdowns of the numbers in terms of urban/rural or regions.

The only positive of the Lowy poll is the fact about two-thirds of Indians said they hoped to improve ties with China in the future. Which makes sense: if the deterioration in China’s image has taken place since 2008, it would not be firmly embedded in the public conscience and would be reversible given the right policies. A CSIS 2009 survey reflects a similar duality: Indians voted for China as the greatest threat to and greatest force in favour of peace and stability in the next 10 years.

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  • Anonymous

    Vinodji

    When the push comes to the shove, the USA will surely repeat Abbottabad, once they have credible information (must be already there) re:targets (similar to Osama’s hideout) – never mind the fact the likely protestations by many and the Pakistan establishment in particular. They will give Pakistan time to neutralise the Haqqani network. If they fail to act, then ….

    I suppose, the USA must be also having a contingency plan to get hold of the Pakistan’s nuclear assets.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar-

    I do not think US has a clue on the pakistani nukes – If so, the whole thing would have been over if they knew where it is…I wish and pray US can denuke them so we can also pursue attacks of their terror training camps deep insid etheir territorry without fearing a nuke trigger by their crazy terrorist army.

    US will take Haquani brothers if they knew the location.. But it may not just be the brothers; I believe they have a deep bench there; plus they may have strong supporters in the army an ISI.
    I believe the public opinion i USA will support a Abotsbad hit on as many as possible including taking out a few generals

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    It is not so simple. Even the USA cannot just walk in and get hold of the assets. Apparently, the world is a less barbaric place today. International sensibilities have to be taken into account.

    When the time comes, it will surely act. With all its sophisticated surveillance systems (satellites and on the ground) in place, it must be surely in the know of things at all times.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar-

    I do not think usa is waiting on any niceties..If it could, it would have, rather than waiting for permision etc.. You know it took 10 years to nail Osama with all the satellites and sophisticated technology… The reason they have not gone deep inside is due to the fear of nukes; rogue elements using against amerikans, Indians etc (including dirty bomb)..the would have pulverized them by now..
    the land of the pure is now the land of the toxic…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Osama and nuclear assets are two different things. The latter are fewer in number and not so difficult to track. It is easier for person to get lost among the millions.

    When it matters, it will not wait for anybody’s permission. IMO, they do not feel the time has come as yet.

    engrich Reply:

    correct

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @Manohar_T
    But going after the Haqqani group in Waziristan might requred a much bigger operation lasting several days. Drone attacks can be attempted
    but those often cause coolateral damage the Pakistan government cannot politically afford and might have to retaliate — or atleast make a pretence of it. Complex situaiton — I’d say.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinodji

    Thanks for the reply. I overlooked the fact that it will require a longer time frame to do so and it would be a major problem.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vinodjee but itwill be step forward in balkanization of pakistan.

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @engrich
    But does the US want to balkanize Pakistan. I think they want to neo-colonise that part of the region including Afghanistan. I have never believed that Washington would ever withdraw troops fully from Aghanistan— which is mineral rich and is already on China’s radar.

    engrich Reply:

    vinodjee they want to balkanize whole world.want to make karachi like dubai.which i think they will succed.balochistan is full of minerals gas and oil.afghanistan has to be under control for free flow of oil and gas from muslim republics of central asia.
    iran has to be emusculated and controlled for flow of oil from kurdistan to haifa port of isreal.
    this they call NEW WORLD ORDER,this aim will achieved with sacrifice of millions of americans europeans christians and peopl from indian sucontinent.this is called democratic imperialism.

    loot of african wealth has already started with attack on libya.200000 has already been killed.they have one`more additional agenda there ,to finish tribalism and tribal societies.
    only those who wear jeans and eat macdonalds go to maals ,believe their media
    has the right to live.

  • Ravi

    The key to understanding the time table of US action against Pakistan is the US election.

    Nothing would suit Obama more than a weekly flight home bringing 300 US soldiers home at a time. TV pictures showing Obama giving them a welcome home salute.

    The Afghan war would be presented as Job done, rather than Job done well.

    A few good quality missile attacks in Waziristan aimed at high price targets will add to the momentum of opinion moving in favour of Obama.

    The cherry on the cake will be holding back aid from the duplicitous PAK government.

    The Obama election will be in the bag.

    [Reply]

    Guest Reply:

    The problem is if a few hundred body bags too arrive under Obama’s watch – that is why they are upping the ante against the Haqqani group.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I think repeating Abbotabad wont be simple as the Paksitanis would be prepared this time.

    However carpet bombing would be the new game, possibly finishing of the Pakistani- US affair for now. And the begining of Paksitan being totally in China’s besotted arms.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I do not think it would be like that.

    The operation would have secret and tacit approval of the Pakistani establishment (as it appears to be the case with Abbottabad raid). Pakistan does not wish to be seen as targeting coreligionists especially on its own soil. They will then make standard noises about its sovereignity being violated, blah, blah, blah.

    The question as to why the ISI/Haqqani network targeted US interests in Afghanistan? Any answers?

    IMO, China will do so much not more – as we know, it is using Pakistan to further its own strategic interests. They have no love for them (for that matter anybody else) as such.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    Do you really believe there is a Pakistani “establishment” anymore? If so, who will it be?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    There must be something – there cannot be a vacuum. Seems, the army has kept the main portfolios for themselves, especially foreign policy – that includes exporting terror, the civilian government then has to keep making the “right” noises in support.

    We do not know with whom to talk, but the USA clearly knows.

    Anonymous Reply:

    even kayani does not look like to be in the know –but you are right; somebody has to be there!

  • Anonymous

    In the previous blog there was very interesting discussion going on about dogs.
    I cannot resit myself from posting in my own style.
    Guys no offence to anyone just take it as a joke.

    Discussion was going among few people about benefits of daru v/s roti.
    One person got up and said – probabaly from my tribe -

    DARU PIYO AUR INDSSAN BANO
    ROTI TO SAALE KUTEY BHI KHATEIN HAIN.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Nice one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mohan

    My dog once ate roti, which my son accidently dipped into my glass of scotch.

    I can swear that the dog has a “yeh dog maang mor” look… ever since..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    One day we will sit together and feed your dog rotis soaked with
    whiskey.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am sure… he will be wagging his tail ever after that…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    it only goes to prove the adage, “Do not ***** in front of a dog, do not drink in front of a child”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Nice one .

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ ShenoyBV

    Thanks for the advise sir. I try not to drink in front of my child and always tell him “ki yeh papa ka grape juice hai…”

    As for my dog… he is always hunting for *******, and keeps staring out of the window, ready to jump, in case he sights one…

  • Anonymous

    Very disturbing news from Pakistan.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/hate-campaign-against-family-of-pak-girl-accused-of-blasphemy/20110926.htm

    I was very disturbed after reading this news. I called my ex boss who is in Karachi
    now. He almost cried and said this – he is a memon – “haan ta khuda bi Pakistan
    khe na bachaye sagdo” Even God cannot save Pakistan now.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan
    Pakstan is full of disturbing news.. Mullas and terrorists and fundamentalist Muslims (whcih is 90% of that fruking country) will see to its destruction. Our secularists will say it is not Islam/Muslim – it is only a few rotten apples.. Wait, you will see the same thing here propagated by oswals of hyderabad, Gilanis, madni of kerala etc

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Raju,
    Yes you are right. Owasi is already asking for Dalit stautus for muslims. By the way very inspiring story from your state.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/how-an-ordinary-man-served-thousands-in-kerala/20110926.htm

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    first the doggy business. Ravi yes dog, can be circumcised, though the DOGHOOD , slips out in total of the foreskin which is like a sleeve.so the choice is ENTIRELY YOURS
    also doggyhood , has a slender bone in the centre and a bulge at the base rather than at the apex like manhood. also the stiffy is only stiff when down in the alley , unlike dharmendra in Mera naam joker , his joystick sticking out in the trapeeze dress
    also there is a thing called KNOTTING unique to doggies , sincerely yours , the surgical biologist

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    This is enough. There I promise to ease on the beer.

    I must say that a pint of Hoegaarden yesterday was a great pleasure.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I was expecting Vinod to write on Chidambaram but he chose to duck this ugly situation and has gone back to irrelevant pakistani issue.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    It would be sad in case Chidambaram goes. He did look more efficient than Shivraj Patil. Chances are Congress will go back to some hackneyed politcian as a replacement. We should not forget we face a terror threat from a mad cap neighbour

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Does anybody really think that Chidambaram will actually resign?

    If he goes, the UPA loses a sauve home Minister.

    And if he does go, he could face the music as A Raja did, considering there is opposition to him in the Congress.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mr Sharma,
    I was no better informed or enlightened after reading your blog than I was before it. There is no coherant thought that I could find. May be I should look harder. Anyway, Mr Gilani’s statement that ‘USA cannot live with or without Pakistan” is typical of the following that a mouse told an elephant as they both crossed a bridge.
    “The bridge is shaking because of you and me”.
    The current Pak reaction to public US accusations is typical of Pak establishment. They have reacted with hysteria and bombast. After all, that kind of reaction has helped them on many previous occasions. Anytime, Pakistan State mounts a terrorist attck on India, from Mumbai to Indian Parliament to Kabul mission and India contemplates what it can do, the Pak establsihment launches a nuclear war hysteria , painting a doomsday scenerio, with suicidal bombast to get attention and divert issues.

    That strategy has worked before against India. It needs to be see how far that strategy succeeds against USA.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Who will find no seat, when the music stops

    Most analysts point out that what is happening in Afghanistan and its Eastern border is powerful groups jostling for status in post war Afghanistan. Haqqani group of mercenaries are no different in this respect.

    The Major contenders for power and influence are, the US backed Afghan Government, The Pakistan backed Afghan Taliban, The Independant Haqqani Group, Pakistan and India. The ultimate prize is who is able to exercise hegemony in Afghanistan.

    US’s preferred scenario is; to allow India a significant role and Pakistan sees that as the US and India meddling in its backyard and all its activities must be seen in this context. Its fear is that India may encircle it, just as China is encircling India by using Pakistan as its western proxy.

    The Haqqani’s are playing a complex game, but essentially, they want to secure their business interests; smuggling, protection, trucking, etc. The ISI has outsourced some of its interests to the Haqqanis who for a price are willing to their dirty work in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants Afghanistan to become its client state.

    The Afghan Taliban and the Afghan Government may come to a compromised power sharing agreement, just as the US is about to leave.

    In this game of musical chairs, guess who may find no where to sit when the music stops.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    You are favouring Pakistan in delineating various players. Pak backed Taliban, Haqquani network, and Pak — these are not three different entities; they are just one for all practical purposes.

    Pakistan is finally going to be “undone” by its duplicity, double dealings, treachery..

    But what does one expect from a group of people who disowns their own parentage?

    May be the tragedy of Pakistan started when they hung Zulfiker.. Or may be the seed was sown on day 1 when they named it “the land of the pure” ; for then the impure should be removed!

    The sad thing for India is that all these are unraveling when we have too many political infighting and issues going on; quite possibly without anybody at the ruddder.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The Pakistani “terror response” to Adm Muellen’s threat has already started.. 6 Pakistani Brits have been arrested today in Birmingham, UK for planning an attack in UK . All these were trained in Pak by ISI operatives,

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Both these stories appear in the International Herald Tribune today. Both are correct.

    But you have linked them together, where no such connection exists.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Once again you are pandering to your inherent islamophobic prejudices rather than conducting any rational analysis.

    Not surprising.

    The three entities are bound together through common interest rather than two being agencies of the other. As you suggest.

    The Haqqani group is fiercely independent and undertakes tasks from Pakistan for money, but it also has many independent Business interests, which it does not share with the Pakistan State. They are Guns for Hire.

    The Afghan Taliban started their life as being the executive arm of the CIA, and only changed sides once the Soviets had left Afghanistan.

    However, I can see why they may appear the same to you, if you view them through the Hindu/Muslim prism

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    Pakistan “satisfies” all requirements to be classified as a “terrorist state”. Wih the Indian embassy bombings last year using ISI/Haquni in Kabul, and the bombings on US army in Afghanistan (thru Haquani) Pakistan fulfills the UN requirements .. Un resolution 1368 on terrorism states that nations found to be “supporting or harbouring the perpretators, organizers, and sponsors of thease acts will be held equally accountable”– So, Pakistan should be declared by the UN (or by US) as a terrorist nation; assets frozen, bombings to dismantle the terror network conducted.

    Any Indian who is against this when Un/US declare it a terrorist state should be considered a terrorist and kept im jail, because there will be “Muslim friends”, politicians, “liberals”, “secularists” etc here on this side of the border who is against declaring Pakistan officially as a terrorist state.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Shoebk,
    I could not have said it better.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    Which prison would you suggest that I should voluntarily walk into.

    I was wondering if there is any bound to your stupidity.

    Evidently not.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,

    Well, you do not have to walk voluntarily to any prison; for your citizenship/affiliation is Pakistan per dialogues that have been going on.

    AshishC Reply:

    in the spirit of the dialog that is going on, perhaps it is time for Ravi to say, “Touche’”

  • Anonymous

    The Haqqani Network.It is not a old school boy network , meaning made up of few geezers.IT HAS 140000 foot soldiers ,dined and carnal interest attended by ISI.
    It is essentially ISI’s proxy in Afganistan. Also they are scattered all over the border with house iside pakistan and toilet inside afganistan.ALSO THEY LOVE TO KILL.
    Now Yanks didn’t discover this or the ISI by proxy 48hrs ago , they knew all along ,IT DIDN’T MATTER SO LONG IT WAS INDIAN EMBASSY.Now that the US embassy and the CIA station adjacent came under outrageous attack all this aggro.
    As for US aid , keep in mind CHINA HAS PLEDGED 250 MILLION FOR FLOOD RELEIF.
    Also USA already has BASES INSIDE PAKISTAN from where it flies its DRONES.This was splashed all over the front page of THE TIMES of London 4 /12 ago.
    So despite all the huffing and puffing my feeeling is yanks are heading for a humiliating retreat , a la vietnam , will TALIBAN BACK IN BUSINESS.
    One scenario India needs to be worried about.That is if USA USES CRUISE MISSILE LIKE RAIN DROPS, and attacks from the western border.
    KNOWING HOW ISLAMIC MIND WORKS, i will not be surprised if pakistan lobbs a few nukes acroos the wagah border JUST TO MAKE MATTERS MESSIER.AND THE VICARIOUS PLEASURE OF KILLING HINDUS

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    UNFINISHED BUSINESS from last post””””””””’

    First of all Ashish, thank you for pointing out that fewer bongs were involved in the communist movement prior to 1948. But then, as Sanjay Mittal and Balwinder pointed out, communism emanating from Bengal took Bengal and the country back by miles.

    Mittal’s comments got hidden-
    ” I guess to not to be a communist at 18 showed you had a hard heart.
    And if you remained a communist after 21 … it showed a lack of a head !!

    I can give you a list of 100 on how the Bengal communists failed us. here is a sample

    — They consistently opposed the liberalisation policies, even when the applauded China for liberalising and getting foreign capital. It was good for China… but never good for India.

    — They danced on the streets of Calcutta when North Korea did a nuclear test. But cried and protested when India conducted the same. Ditto when China did this.

    — They supported China during 1962, dreaming that China is going to overthrow the capitalists.

    — The ransacked the industries of Bengal to make it a failed state in terms of industry

    Now these are 4 points. In case you want 96 more… ask me ! ‘
    UNQUOTE

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Most of the leading communists supported China when it attacked India. The leaders who opposed this were suspended from the party and the politbureau. VS Achuthanadan, the ex CM of Kerala, was suspended from the party and the politbureau because he was on “India’s side”!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jyoti Basu was on China’s side; portraying the whole thing not as a war between two countries; but as a fight between capitalism and communism! (figure it out, he felt 1962 India was Capitalist!). Ajay Ghosh did not take a side (figure it out)..

    EMS Namboodiripad and AK Gopalan, the politbureau leaders from Kerala took a “nationalistic” position and were strongly on the side of India

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Most communist leaders of India, including Jyoti Basu accused India and Nehru of war mongering and starting the war. They ridiculed India’s defense forces too.
    There was a time in late sixties , when in Bengal, you could read the following slogan plastered on many walls ” China’s chairman is our chairman ” with a picture of Mao on the side.
    This is not any different from what Pakistani criminals, who have started all 3-4 wars with India, blame India for “imposing war” on them and leaving them with no choice.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Utter bollocks from a pundoo. Lord Haw Haw worked for the nazi propaganda machine, Lord Moseley started Brown Shirts movement in UK immitating the Hitler Youths brigade.
    There are more NEO NAZIS in number in USA and RUSSIA AND UK than in its native germany.
    That doesn’t mean that OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION of these country have anything but hatred towards the Nazis.
    Also had it not been for the sacrifice of citizens of west bengal who endured the avalanche of refugees in 1971, india could not have won the war

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Utter bollocks from a pundoo. Lord Haw Haw worked for the nazi propaganda machine, Lord Moseley started Brown Shirts movement in UK immitating the Hitler Youths brigade.
    There are more NEO NAZIS in number in USA and RUSSIA AND UK than in its native germany.
    That doesn’t mean that OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION of these country have anything but hatred towards the Nazis.
    Also had it not been for the sacrifice of citizens of west bengal who endured the avalanche of refugees in 1971, india could not have won the war

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Utter bollocks from a pundoo. Lord Haw Haw worked for the nazi propaganda machine, Lord Moseley started Brown Shirts movement in UK immitating the Hitler Youths brigade.
    There are more NEO NAZIS in number in USA and RUSSIA AND UK than in its native germany.
    That doesn’t mean that OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION of these country have anything but hatred towards the Nazis.
    Also had it not been for the sacrifice of citizens of west bengal who endured the avalanche of refugees in 1971, india could not have won the war

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Utter bollocks from a pundoo. Lord Haw Haw worked for the nazi propaganda machine, Lord Moseley started Brown Shirts movement in UK immitating the Hitler Youths brigade.
    There are more NEO NAZIS in number in USA and RUSSIA AND UK than in its native germany.
    That doesn’t mean that OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION of these country have anything but hatred towards the Nazis.
    Also had it not been for the sacrifice of citizens of west bengal who endured the avalanche of refugees in 1971, india could not have won the war

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The punjabi pundoo should know Lord Haw Haw was a nazi propagandist, LorTd Moseley started BROWN shirts movement imitating HITLER YOUTH
    There are motr NEO NAZIS in USA RUSSIA AND UK , than in native germany.
    That doesn’t mean the vast majority of the population are nazis.
    Had it not been for the sacrifice of the bengalees in 1971 in enduring the avalanche of refugees, india would not have won the war.
    NOT TO MENTION TEA AND JUTE WAS INDIA’S MAIN FOREIGN EXCHANGE EARNER TILL 1970

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The punjabi pundoo should know Lord Haw Haw was a nazi propagandist, LorTd Moseley started BROWN shirts movement imitating HITLER YOUTH
    There are motr NEO NAZIS in USA RUSSIA AND UK , than in native germany.
    That doesn’t mean the vast majority of the population are nazis.
    Had it not been for the sacrifice of the bengalees in 1971 in enduring the avalanche of refugees, india would not have won the war.
    NOT TO MENTION TEA AND JUTE WAS INDIA’S MAIN FOREIGN EXCHANGE EARNER TILL 1970

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think this is a major issue for many an Indian party and that is why i rate the RSS higher,

    The COmmunists leaders always thought that there was somethimg very pristine and holy about global communist leaders from Moscow to Beijing, For them the communist ideal was higher than the love for the country.

    Let me also state that the cadre by and large wanted to do good for the country. It was proably the extreme poverty which convinced many that communism was a solution.

    But their leaders always identified with the foreign powers being superior. For example China in 1962. The Orders from Stalin in 1942..

    That is why my father got disenchanted in 1962, He flirted with CPI for some time, Realised that it was the B team of the COngress and then became a COngressman.

    This is in someways similar to Islamic leaders getting orders from Wahabbi groups in Saudia.

    But let me state that the intention of communism was to create a just society inluke the Islamic groups which want an Islamic soicety and others be damned.

    Communism failed becasue it wanted to fit people into a theory which did not understand the basic nature of an individual which is also about personal tastes and personal enrichment…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ashish & Dr Mishra

    Now let me add another relevent chapter to the communism debate.

    Let us admit it that some fo the communists were really sensitve souls moved by the poverty and unequality of Indian society in the forties. From their viewpoint they had suddenly read about a philosophy which talked abolut equality fo ALL and saw there a chance where the poorest of the poor, facing caste and income discrimination would get an equal opportunity.

    In the end however they could NOT see how this philosophy was pracctically implemented.

    When the Communists talked about doing away with religion, they ended up making Marx, mao and Stalin as Gods.

    When they talked about equality of opportunity– which was frankly there in many a communist country– they ended up giving equal pay to all, leading to gross inefficiency and no incentive for innovation and growth.

    It became a totaltarian system, which the commuist of India should have seen, but chose not to. In fact their leaders gave them notes on the perfect societies coming up under Mao and Stalin.

    Forgetting that, all those societies had become dictatorships in the Gadaffi mould…

    AshishC Reply:

    Sanjay,
    yes, I agree. As I said in my response to MIshra above, Communism is inherently flawed because it fails to recognise that all humans want to first think about themselves and their family.
    My dad is die-hard CPM (poor chap, he is so confused now- he does not know who to vote for, living in Delhi for the last 35 years!). His elder brother was CPI and we grew up with them arguing, sometimes at the top of their voices, every day at dinner.

    AshishC Reply:

    Rajiiv,
    many shades of communists- see my post to Mishra above.
    Since you grew up in Bengal, are you aware that most number of victims of Naxals (communist A) were CPM cadres (communist B) and Ajoy Bose was actually a member of CPI before he formed Bangla Congress?
    So, examine history dispassionately- especially contemporary history.
    Kissinger pretty much, in his recent book blames the war in 1962 on India. If you do not agree with Nehru (or whosoever is the ruling PM), will that make you unpatriotic?
    This is the Congress version of history- anyone who is not a Congress mainstream- is small or malignant. Don’t swallow it whole.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    made a mistake.. Ajoy Ghosh (not Bose) member CPI, died in early sixties. Ajoy Mukherjee, CM of Bengal and founder of Bangla Congress, was NEVER a member of CPI. Error regretted.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dr Mishra,
    I am still waiting for your apology for your absolutely baseless allegation about Bengali communists’ lack of patriotism in 1942.
    I have responded to Sanjay in the previous post.
    Bringing linguistic, caste or other denominations into a civilized debate makes it less so. I have not ever made an accusation on linguistic lines against Randive et al nor have I been constrained to point out the detailed and documented role of PC Joshi in active collusion of the British in 1942. I can also start juxtaposing your 3 Maharashtrian brahmins of dubious credentials/ contribution at best towards the Indian freedom struggle with the Maharashtrian brahmins I named in the previous post.
    I have not done so, because it is beneath me. I consider Joshi, Randive et al as Indians with good and bad contributions- in organising the labour, giving birth to the trade unions in India, organising (to my knowledge) the first co-operative for Textile workers, leading or orchestrating several mass movements and so on- like the Tebhaga movement for instance. We would be poorer without their contributions. A simple label like communist or collusionist does not do justice to these towering figures of history.
    When you say communism emanated from Bengal, you show your pitiful ignorance. Even in India, the first left front government was in Kerala and for a long time, most active communists were spread all over India- including in Maharashtra, Delhi, Andhra and of course Bengal.
    Not everyone is unmitigated evil- whether it is RSS or the “commies”. During the dark days of the Khalistan the most active civil defence against the Khalistanis were led by the CPI. Hundreds of their members – Sikhs and Hindus alike- were gunned down by the militants because they were against any religion based politcs.
    I deride the economic philosophy of the communists as being unsuited for modern times. I also fundamentally disagree with their vision of society as against very human nature- but, in giving a counterbalance to the naked forces of capitalism (trade unions, co-operatives etc) the ‘commies’ have played a stellar role.
    Communists are not one amorphous whole- there are hundreds of shades- some who do not even call themselves communists- my friend from the previous blog (Bobby) was one such.
    Anyway, such subtleties will escape you. It is best to deal in labels.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    Applause.

    The problem, as you mentioned, is of labels. Label someone as evil – then many only see evil in them, label someone good – then …….

    Bigotry, thy name is …………………….. (fill in the blanks).

    On the saner side, one should see the relationship and great friendship (since 1921) between Pandit Nehru and Dr. Ram Manohar Lohia, in spite of the fact that the latter was the fiercest critic of former’s politics and economic policies, neither of them ever put a label on the other.

    You correctly say, many of the leaders of the communist movement were truly towering and their contribution is nothing to jeer about or to be rejected outright. One may or may not agree with their philosophy.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Ashish , I have already stated above- ‘ First of all Ashish, thank you for pointing out that fewer bongs were involved in the communist movement prior to 1948 ‘. I do not think that a dramatic juxtaposition I made between Marathi brahmins and Bengali communists, while discussing the tragic and heroic story of Veer Savarkar, needed to go under a legal microscope.

    I take this blog lightly, come here once in a while to highlight what is unusual. I take a contrarian stance often. Defending Veer Savarkar takes guts, to point out that it was better to write a letter of apology rather than die of TB in Kaala Pani, was what I intended to do. Get the flavour of what I say, (I daresay that there are many here who savour my writings ) and do not get stuck in minutae.

    And no the subtelities in your detailed approach above in your lovely post have not escaped me, I have written many a similar one before- what has escaped you is your own very intense approach in demanding an apology when you would be better off reading my first sentence above

    [Reply]

  • MongaPonga

    By going public US is also making sure its public especially during an election year is prepared to keep troops in Af-Pak longer than what was promised by President Obama.

    One thing that many foreign media in India and Pakistan do NOT understand is the unity Americans have regardless of race, religion, political party, when American national security is threatened.

    If a ground reality is such that US can not make the troop withdrawls based on previous schedules, the American public will support the President.

    So if Pakistan was just counting the days left for Americans to leave, think again buddy!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The snake Mishra is posting porkies. KARAT WAS MALAYALI LIKE GOPI THOMAS
    Jyoti Basu and the bengal contingent argued in favour of the coalition with congress and the nuclear deal but was drowned by the malayali pack , and cost them the election in WB.
    Get your facts right

    [Reply]

  • Rsbnola

    “They can’t live with us. They can’t live without us,” he said. “I would say to them that if they can’t live without us, they should increase contacts with us to remove misunderstandings.” Poetic but lacks any credibility. The US can go it alone if push comes to shove and at the same time cut all donations to Pakistan. Then that remark would be reversed.

    [Reply]

  • Rupert

    From the comments coming from Indians on the issue of Taliban in Waziristan, and the **** involvement, they go to irrelevent matters like local politics. Indians have not changed from the time Mohd.Ghazni and Mohd.Ghore invaded India. U guys also face fate, and become Mohammedans one day.

    [Reply]

  • Antaes

    You can bet your bottom dollar that even as we speak, there are feverish plans being laid out in the US to deal with this situation. The US will do what it has to, without advertising it. We will probably know when we least expect it.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Ravi, just noticed that if any muslim takes an honest no-nonsense stance on Islamic terrorism, you get very upset and start calling them names. You did it with Rizwan, you are doing it with Shoeb.
    An inability to see continuity and overlap between ISI, Pak army, LeT, Haqqani etc can only result from not wanting to see the obvious.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    more than fake Ravi’s, it is the inability of most of us here to see him for what he truly is and what he truly represents. Though he camouflages his identity, nevertheless, often his naqaab involuntarily lowers itself to afford glimpses of his jihadi nature. It is we who blithely accept his protestations of being like one of us.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    जगत बहनोई

    At least we know that you are an RSS Communal Thug a bully.

    That is all that matters.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ravi

    I would seriously advise you to go for a raw veggie diet to get rid of the bloated stomach so that you can see your manhood better. And blood pressure which can occur becasue of low efficiency arteries.

    Anyway, I am surprised that you are so upset at Shoeb’s reasonable posting. In fact you really had nothing to say about the bomb attack on the Delhi HC just a few weeks back.

    However…

    Even if your sympathies are with the Haqqani group, I think you should just declare it openly, rather than using words like Fluying Fu- – as these words on a blog could well upset my dog too… !

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal

    How did you arrive at the conclusion that my sympathies are with the Haqqani Group.

    I have only ever mentioned the Haqqani Group in this blog.

    Care to quote me, back at me, to support your alligations.

    Or are you just like others, shoot and run.

    I await your reponse.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    You have only just noticed.

    I have been noticing for a long time that YOU DO NOT READ.

    That is a fact.

    I suggest that you read what I have written again and you will find that I have identified the very over lap to you want to push.

    I do not give a फ़्लाइंग फुक्क (Yorkshire accent intended) if Sheob is a Muslim or a Buddhist. He is wrong.

    The three groups I identified may have ideological overlaps, are operationally independent and the currency of transactions between them is MONEY. The Haqqani group is not only funded by the middle east rich but indirectly by US contractors who are busy in infrastucture projects under the PROTECTION racket of the Haqqani Brothers.

    This is obvious even to Stevie Wonder, except to Islamophobes such as you who wish to extract last ounce of communal twaddle out of every incident.

    Andaman is welcome to you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    How do you make definitive statements like, “they are operationally independent”… You also made definitive statement like “RSS aided and abetted Godse in murdering Gandhiji”…

    Are you in the know or making the statements that you wish were true?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    a chitpavan killed mahatama like street dog and distributed the sweets all over india.they belong to the family of rss terrorists.

  • Anonymous

    With its military boots on ground or aerial assault through drone attacks what significant achievement (success) will US get? If Waziristan is safe heaven for Haqqanis then what was Kunar, Marjah, Herat?? Isn’t that safer heaven for Haqqanis , Taliban and Hizb e Islami as well. US/ISAF forces have badly failed in Afghanistan. These elements are much more safe n sound inside Afghanistan than on this side of Durand Line where they’ll be easy to spot and target.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Usman buddy, welcome back. US forces are bound to fail- 5 years back they were fighting 5% of the population of Pakistan who were very fundamentalist. Today the figure is perhaps 30%.
    I say this on the basis of what I read in the Pak newspapers regularly and what I glean from the Pak patients here in UK. Salman Taseer being murdered for wanting to protect a christian would have been unimaginable in 10 years ago, today when his son is kidnapped nobody in Pakistan even bats an eyelid.

    Last week a christan girl got thrashed for misspelling a word in her class 8 exam and being accused of blasphemy.

    It is very difficult to fight an idea that keeps on multiplying faster than the terrorists being killed onthe ground. Your feedback welcome

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Hello Dr Mishra

    Sir, the slow and gradual process of islamizaton will take another 30+ yrs to go back to normalcy till the time ordinary people are mature enough to discuss matters in rational way and some peace returns to disturbed areas and minds.

    As far as our confrontation with US is concerned it seems we were never acknowledged for our part of share in the war against terrorism and still are blamed for fuelling more violence in Afghanistan. The unnecessary bombings carried out by US in the tribal area of Pakistan has also spurred up the idea to demand US absence from Afghanistan.

    As far as missing Shahbaz Taseer is concerned every effort is being made to trace him and i hope and pray for this recovery.
    Any reference for 8 yr old girl?

    Usman

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    usmam

    will appreciate your comment on the note i put on where pakistan was, what it has to do now etc.. It will add an inside-out to my outside-in

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Gopi i have read your post would definitely add my views in response to yours but it will take some time in compilation.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Usman,

    I don’t think Pakistan has 30 years to live and enjoy future normalcy. The land of the pure has become highly polluted with the elimination of the kafir log and what is now left is all terror and their support base. I would give a maximum of 3-5years for Pakistan to beak up. It is sad that Pakistanis forgot the earlier breaking in 1971 and went about destroying the remaining land of the pure.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mr Shenoy,

    That is what we have been listening to for the past ten years. Our friendly eastern neighbour has been saying this at our inception, who would go at any length to take advantage of geo-political differences between East and West Pakistan and supporting Mukti Bahni for the cause of Bangladesh.
    How is it possible that we have forgotten this?

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mr Shenoy

    I think it would be in the spirit of the blog to understand what Usman is saying. Our view from India’s side is bound to be diamatrically opposite as we bear the brunt of the terror attacks.

    It is possible that the ” reasonable” Pakistani view would be different. In case we need to mould the reasonable Pakistani view to change according to our needs… and lower the level of terror emnating from there, it is necessary to understand it.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks! a big relief. Can I have more of your sort on this blog. Speaking of which where is Mahesh, Vinay and Dr Anand these days?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Expecting anything in the spirit of the blog or of anything else from Shenoy, whose world view is through a cracked Hindutvawadi prism, is well nigh impossible.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Any reference for 8 yr old girl?

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/girl-accused-of-blasphemy-for-a-spelling-error/

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Usman

    I believe you are from Pakistan. At least from your writing and that of Dr Mishra in response, it does seem so.

    What is the ordinary Paksitani’s response to the turn of events now? With US in a mood to confront Pakistan for what it sees as double dealings. As we all know, the US is capable of huge, brute force as it applied in Iraq. At this point it would not alike to walk away as a defeated party in the Afghan imbroglio.

    It will end up being callous and may just carpet bomb regions, unmindfull of consequences. Is Pakistan prepared for this. As well as the cutting of aid, which could result in huge currency devaluation and consequent inflation?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Greetings Sanjay,

    Thank you for asking the opinion of ordinaries like me and what circumstances surround us at the turn of events.

    It is difficult to answer the question posed by you in single breath. We have come across thirty years of strained relations with US which have now turned bitter especially after the Osama episode.

    It won’t be wrong to say that US threatened us with similar tone back in 2001 during Donald Rumsfeld time (as secretary of defence). So nothing new this time just boiled more anti US sentiments.

    It is indeed heartening to know that US made such casual “failed intelligence” excuses after bombing Iraq and years later it turned out that there were no WMD and Al-Qaida element present in Iraq. What can i say more in this regard who can go at any length to achieve its objective and accuse others for its failed policies. We believe US is willing to take military action for any reason. Pakistan should be more vigilant and exercise every effort to confront the situation on diplomatic front else …. face the music.

    Usman

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope something does change for the good in Pakistan. My gut feeling is that the US cannot show it has walked out of Afghanistan as a loser.

    Is there a civillian leadership in Paksitan which is willing to build up the country independent of dependence on CHina or US?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    Country like Pakistan that has yet to take a start in economic field would rely on some injection of strong economic push. I have my doubts over US after our bitter engagement but can’t say if we are willing to be independent of China. Besides some strategic and economic gains this equally invites trouble knocking at the door and nothing more to say that we’ll be like a tool at the hands of bigger powers.This requires serious thinking and look for more possible and viable options.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ok ! Txx for the reply

  • Anonymous

    Rajiv, Rajeev, Sanjay Mittal,

    Vinod Sharma’s blog this time is typical of the head-in-the-sand response of the congress supporting media. Pretend that nothing is happening or divert people’s attention to something 99%of Indians do not think a damn about.

    I am reminded of a cartoon that appeared in the Indian Express in 1961. When the Chinese had gobbled up most of the Indian land in Aksai Chin and there was a huge clamour for “action”, our (in)famous defence minister, Krishna Menon marches our army into Goa and ” releases” it from Portuguese occupation!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy Saab

    I often wonder . when bombs rip through masjids, or markets or , religous processions and congregations , as we often read about in papers or on TV ,in Pakistan , Waziristan or such areas inhabited by the “pure” and killing hard to enforce the word of their Almighty , does anyone grieve for the dead or those who are left crippled and maimed , or the children who are orphaned.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Two pundits fighting hehe
    Time to stop nonsense. Ashish and mishra doc will not like to hear what I say next, both are ver learned but have EGO.
    Ashish is better with words which are like playing of violin, but Mishraji has an expanse of knowledge and history and the way he links it that is unequalled. When he linked Anna Hazare movement with ancient hindu jain tradition of shravans?? and linked that with Buddha, Chanakya, republics, governance= nearly all were spell bound.
    Dear Ashish, I like u but pl u listen= banging on about apology over minor silly point is making u look POMPOUS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And Ashish, bobby commie was irritating, his was only point of view, others were insects. He was also very jehadi in his outlook, sorry a TOTAL idiot.
    And you are trying to hide evil of bengali communism by trying to hid it behind words like=inherently flawed philosophy= while in reality it has killed and continues to kill barbatously thousands in India. I refer to their cousins maoists.
    For someone who claims to apreciate nuances, your ignoring sledgehammer of violence of bengal communists just because they speak sweet bangla language sadly displays your bias.
    Sorry babu moshai no support for u here on this one. Electorsl violence of cpi and cpm was of the gutter variety

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I and Bobby stood on opposite sides on most debates for close to 2 years and slugged it out- he had his point of view and I had mine.
    I have done the same with Syed and I do the same with Ravi, Manohar and Mahesh.
    I admire only those who can teach me something; I just named a few who I have learnt from while disagreeing with their views. There were others- like SKS_Mumbai, Vinay who I have never disagreed with while enriching myself tremendously.
    If you wish to debate, you need to first read and appreciate that CPI, CPM, CPIML, CPIM(Mao)… SUCI, FB blah blah.. they are all different.. and they have all evolved, in different paces, in different directions. If you do not know CPM and Maoists kill each other in WB – what can one say? In India, all political parties have goons- care to do some research and find out how many sitting MPs from which parties have serious criminal cases against them? The answer will probably shock you. Electoral violence of CPI and CPM?? Ha! You evidently do not know of what TMC does.
    Since you continue to use words like Bengali communism, I fear any further discussion will be fruitless.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I do not abuse anyone’s community and I do not expect abuse in return.
    I am not here to make friends. I call a spade a spade.
    Ignorant blather is what it is- ignorant blather.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    good

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dr Mishra knows as much history as I know about medicine.. ’nuff said

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravibhai, why abuse Shoeb, made no sense.
    Rupert and antaes, welcome to best blog on planet. Everyone read their excellent contribution

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mr Shenoy

    I am reminded of the GUlf War in 1990. Our then PM, Chandrashekhar wanted to talk to someone on world stage. Unfortunately our international standing was low at that time. Finally Chandrashekhar’s secretary managed to connect to the PM of Nepal !

    Our PM then expressed his opinion on the Gul War and it was the main news on Door Darshan for two days…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Power- having it, projecting it, and using it appropriately- is important.
    Will anybody care about US if it didnt have power (granted they have misused it more than once)?
    Is the newfound “respect” for China strictly based on its miraculous economic achievements?
    The US possible actions in N Wazirstan, the US leaving Afghanistan etc is surely going to create a new terror wave to India from Pakistan based terrorists. I bet you, that “we will be surprised” when an attack happens, will be totally unprepared – for the attacks or for the civilian care/organization post attack, and as usual will issue statements on the “resilience of Mumbaikars o Delhiites”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    I hope u dont mind if I call u GOpi as Thomas does sound formal !

    I guess you are right. THe world salutes the powerful. And unfortunately we have been unable to project ourselves as powerful…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jiske paas paisa, uske paas laaThi.
    Jiski paas laaThi, uski bhains.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    Jiske paas nuclear bumb…
    Usko bhi salute pad raha hai…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Paisa hai to Nuclear bumb hai

    The whole thing is that ke bhaiyaa sabse baDaa rupaiyaa.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pakistan ke paas Pasa nahi nuclear bumb hai

    Uske saamne Amrika bhi dumb hai…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Paisa thaa (thoDhaa apna, baaki doosro.n kaa), nuclear bumb (laaThi) banaa liyaa.

    Baahar se shaayad amrikaa dumb hai, ander se nahi.n hai.

    IMO, all contingency plans are in place.

  • Anonymous

    (Usman, I would like you to provide a ground reality based assessment; mine is just my observations)

    One of the indications US projecting is that they are ” winding down” in Afghanistan, but “winding up” in Pakistan. The necessary congressional and public support is harnessed; the American public seems to be squarely behind tough actions on Pakistan – a unity of purpose they did not have when they went into Iraq.

    The ground situation in Pakistan over the years,a s we all know, is muddled; with total confusion from top to bottom, a “free ride downward’..Zardari did not even attend Taseer’s funeral for fear of his life!

    Future historians will decipher whether the present ground situation happened organically as a result of the army rule over time, or whether it is the result of a planned US meddling. If it is the result of the army rule, it has to be post Zia Haq; because army did a decent job of governing prior to him. The situation now is
    1) Civilian leadership (may be an oxymoron) is not much concerned about Kashmir; but it is the centrality of the military, especially the new officer corps recruited from non-traditional land-owning sectors
    2)the use of Islamic fundamentalists for state use/insurgency is well rooted in Pakistani psyche. From an original mainly Deobandi outfits, many have sprung up which are non-deobandis such as LeT, which is Ahle Hadith, with Wahabi orientation. LeT has also moved from its original Kashmir focus to a “world” focus including domestic Pakistan affairs.
    3) Pakistan’s “Hedge and Hope” strategy with the Talibans and other extremists clearly started unraveling after 9/11, with the pressure from US. JeM, LeT etc that were aligned with Pakistan Govt, started going after the govt . Pakistan started compartmentalizing Taliban, as good Taliban (Afghani based) and bad Taliban (Pak-based attacking Pakistani army)
    4) The Lal Masjid mosque incident further radicalized the Pak Taliban, with increased recruitment from the Punjabi Deobandis
    5) Pak did not go after LeT after the Mumbai attack, either because of their fear that the attack will transform LeT into a formidable army they will have to fight for ever, or they will lose the only card they had in Kashmir.
    6)Pakistan did not act against the Swat/South Wazirstan based Talibans until they started to move to Buner, just 60 miles from Islamabad.
    7) Pakistan never ventured into North Wazirstan, giving a free play to Hacquanis. They think Hacquanis provide them strategic depth (?) in Afghanistan vis-a-vis India when US leaves. 8) US “precision attack” on Osama Bin Laden has brought all these in focus. Info seized during the raid has provided a treasure trove of intelligence info to USA . US has connected all the dots between military/ISI/terror networks.

    Can Pakistan come out of this mess in whole? (we are not even talking about Baluchistan!)? The only way they can is:

    - Go after Afghani Taliban including Hacquani; forget about the mirage of “strategic depth”
    - Work with the US in controlling domestic terrorism that is eating Pakistan away (LeT potentially can take over parts of Punjab and Sindh)
    - Managed, thought out shut down (unlike the siege of Lal Masjid) the thousands of Deobandi madrasas that function as feeder institutions to terrorist organizations

    US will do something on its own in N Wazirstan/Haquani territories if Pak does not go after Hacquanis. Or Pak may be waiting like they waited till Pak Taliban showed up in Buner– but it may then be too late!

    Usman, will appreciate your perspective

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    Before i sketch my opinion of present day Pakistan situation and how things would toll from here I would like to draw a pretext of our relationship with american government and their foreign policy which is centric to their interest. This would help in understanding the aggreviating situation in Pakistan both at the hands of home grown militancy and presence of US intelligence activities inside Pakistan.
    For the past thirty years we are equally disturbed because of the crumbling situation in Afghanistan and number of refugees that have taken shelter on our side. For me the best time to construct civilian government rule and rehabilitation of refugees in Afghanistan was after the expulsion of Soviet forces.In a time when Afghanistan needed a constructive hand US backed out from Afghanistan why did they do it? and was it done on purpose i have little to say. Leaving nothing but alone Pakistan to handle the situation. How and what happened is all well known. In the same era we witnessed planned assasination of Gen Zia ul Haq that made first signs of strong presence of CIA inside Pakistan which is now being potrayed that ISI is behind every mischief inside Afghanistan.Besides, US siding with military establishment and leaving behind favour of civilian rule is also dubious. It seems it hardly matters to them who should they allign with unless they have a greater stake at risk.

    From a top level prespective: In 20th century we have always witnessed US being a victim of some ABC-ism and finding ways and means to curb and unite against a common threat which is against its values or interest. During second world war it was Naziism, from fifties till the down fall of Soviet Union it was Communism and now it is radical/islamization giving shape to Terrorism. Analyzing it further we might see that each has evolved from its predecessor and all are against one entity, US. So any reason would seemingly sound valid, legitimate to let their populace know (or make them aware) what to go after. For that they can put on any hat or wear any mask.
    I’m sure they would have ample support to take every action against Pakistan and that too in full confidence of their public. But would they equally let them (or the world know) about their henious (overt) crimes, by attacking and bombing the soverignity of other countries and clear cut violation of any UN resolution. I doubt so.

    This text is ample enough to atleast give you a feeler and further reasoning about the bad/Punjabi/Swati/Sindhi Taliban/ Quetta Shora (Pakistani version) whose presence and strong links with elements inside Afghanistan is what we are aware of. But not everything is like this I have to admit our own mistakes and inept governance and political turmoil in shaping and fueling the militancy.
    That as you mentioned i would leave at the hands of time and for future historians to decipher. As in my opinion it is both who have muddled it.

    ———————-

    Under the present situation:-

    - No, civilian establishment is very much aware of the Kashmir factor when it comes to bilateral talks with India and is not alone at the mercy of army. However, keeping in view the terrorist activities inside India it might not have made its way on top of the list.

    - The crack down against LeT, JuD, JeM in 2004 was worth praising achievement by Pervaiz Musharif who had made assurance with India on controlling the anti-India activities on its soil. The other versions like Lashkar e Jhangvi and Sipha Sihaba are banned and blacklisted organizations who are very much operative in militancy against army and military installations and other minority communities (Shia/Ahmadis) and are in direct contact with Al-Qaida and Pakistani Taliban.

    - The categorization of good/bad version of Taliban is fuzzy. Yes, there was a bit of reluctance on our part to take strong action against the local Taliban insurgency but the reason was not turing a blind eye or deaf ear but to allow peace negotiations with Fazllullah/Mehsood group. Who wanted shariat implementation of law and refused to lay down arms against the law enforcing agencies. This created rift between the center and Taliban groups and swift military actions was called upon. How did they manage to target military installations and with satelite guided gadgetories is a puzzle within itself. It is beleived they have strong relations with the contractors who work for ISAF.

    - The reason it did not go after LeT was casual pursue of law from both sides. The establishment on our side believe less credible evidance was given by India and failing to contact those who interrogated Ajmal Kasab.
    This should not diffuse in vain. On the flip side despite high claim by India on complete evidance support given to Pakistan the sudden drop and change in India’s mood and New Delhi’s closeness with Washington and Aman ki Aasha has raised serious concerns on our side.

    - Haqqani’s feel more safe and sound in Afghanistan then on our side. However why Pakistan is not going in North Waziristan is because of peace pacts with “aman lashkar” who are in direct contact with establishment are making significant way against TTP. Going against them is serious disaster and inviting more trouble. The only way is peaceful negotiations with the elders and groups of tribal belt. No dictation and military engagement is necessary. Not at any cost.

    - The Osama episode is very much diluted with self made theories and US claims. I have visited the area and asked local residents about the incident to which majority was unaware of Osama’s presence but do hint that someone important that was required must have lived in that compound.
    To me what has little made its way on media is claim of Al-Qaida behind any attack on US forces. However, Taliban/Haqqanis/Hizb e Islami are more vocal on attacks and have made it clear that they have no backing and support from Pakistan and can live and fight the foreign occupation for unlimited period of time but Al-Qaida seems quite for some time now. They have made guerilla attacks on military conveys and have taken enough weapon in depots to use it against US.

    - If US has seized any piece of information, any track of calls from Osama’s mobile phone or info about secret military/ISI details shouldn’t they have made any contigencies to stop attacks in Kabul or ISAF headquaters? Still it is as fuzzy as the claim laid on dumping Osama’s body in sea by keeping intact Islamic values. This is as chidish as it can be because sea/water burrial is not acceptable under islamic law.

    - The reason US is pushing the ball in Pakistani court and not on the heads of insurgents is because we believe this way they would gain good public and congressional support to take military action against Pakistan and target will not be N.Waziristan but rather nuclear and military installations of Pakisatn. This is the single most reason to unite and take responsive actions full ahead covertly.

    As for the peace process to initiate it is vital that bilateral talks should be allowed between Afghan government and other groups after the US expulsion from Afghanistan. The Talibans have made clear that no peace talks will take place in the presence of US on its ground. As for Pakistan it should support the peace process. I feel sorry for the loss of Burhanuddin Rabbani who was great friend and middle man for initiating peace between various groups. Any military action would hamper peace in Af-Pak.

    Furthermore a tougher and stronger action is required against militants and maddaras to be registered and made functional under the government made laws. This would atleast help in curbing free flow of extremists who have hijacked the law and made hostage like situation.

    Usman

    p.s: please excuse my late submission and thank you for your patience.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Usman
    Thanks for your insight. Let us hope no major blowbacks happen

    However, I am intrigued by the military’s control of a major part of the economy, budget, etc. Why did not democracy take shape? Is it due to the feudal landlord/army nexus? Do you think army’s control will ever reduce ? Will they ever let a normal civilian govt to run the country like almost all other countries? What do youngsters favour? Are they happy with the way things are (minus US involvement). Is army using US involvement as an excuse, a bogey man?

    I read somewhere that 1500 families control 90% of the land area. Is that true? And if so, does it create the social pressures that mutates into terrorist organizations?

    How infested is the army with the terrorist elements?

    And the most important question — who has the power in the system there now? Is it Kayani? Or some other person? IS that creating a frustration now among the Americans, that they do not know whom to talk to? Whom does the average Pakistani think is the head of the govt?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good to know the view (should I say a calm and patient one at that) from the other side – it does not matter whether one agrees with it or not.

    Only one point – America’s enemies (real or perceived) down the years – Nazism, Communism and now radical Islam. That is but natural – otherwise how would the American military-industrial complex prosper, if not able influence Washington’s foreign policies and adventures,by creating enemies? If and whenever the threat from radical Islam diminishes or is eliminated, then that complex would create another enemy. In the end, sab paise kaa sawal hai.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, you have your favourites and I have mine. Sorry I think you are very good but gopi and mishraji are EXCELENT. You are now beginning to sound a bit pompous and arrogant, you scored a minor point, mishra conceded graciously= now move on.
    And sorry puttar, Gopi and Mishraji have a grasp of indian and world history that leaves you gasping. I have said that u debate like lovely violin music, but thats all. I wud struggle to remember any notable historical fsct from u othrr than this communism from bengal= you are bengali and yr dad was staunch cpm member so that is expected.
    Sadly u displayed a side in last 24hrs that was hidden before, pl u hide it from now on

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sorry ashish, on Pakistan , the 3 best experts here are= rajiiv, rajeev and mishraji, definitely not you. I just read mishraji statement above to usman
    “”"it is very difficult to fight an idea that multiplies faster than the njI bumber of terrorists killed on the ground”"”. BRILLIANT,

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I don’t write for you.. this is probably the first time I have bothered to respond to you. This is the last.
    I am not stopping you from commenting- I will simply ignore as I do all trolls.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Usman

    It is going to be a busy day at the office for you.

    I had posed a question earlier, there has been no answer from other bloggers.

    The USA has publicly alleged (perhaps not without reason/evidence) that ISI/Haqqani network targeted US interests in Afghanistan – thus inviting their wrath. Would you know why?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    Looks like Pakistani military has been “deliberately” killing US Army men for a while.
    Please see the NYTimes article that Rajiiv has posted few hrs ago. This deals with a coordinated Pak army attack on a Afghan/US negotiation team in 2007, one in which a US Major and others were killed.
    Things may be worse than what we expect (if these types of things have been happening for a while)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    My question is how does it benefit the ISI (and should one say by extension Pakistan) to attack US installations and personnel or are they plain daft? In other words, is there a method to the madness?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    Good question– I believe the generals think that they/Pakistan is critical for US for the supply lines etc, and they can get away with murder (literally). They believe US wont act back because of 180 million Muslims, nukes, China influence, Us exp in Iraq etc will prevent US coming back at them. So, the generals think US will always blink first.
    However, I believe US is at the stage that they will be willing to pulverize Pak. Senators belonging to both parties have started making statements that US should “teach” Pak a lesson. The supply route diversification (to Afghanistan) has already happened with 50% coming thru central Asia. Osama’s killing with Zawahari on the run makes Pak a lesser partner for fight against Al Quida.

    So you can say that the Generals are living in the past – Kashmir, their own sense of how important the real estate is to US when in reality it is no more important, strategic depth (whatever sh—it is) etc…

    The unfortunate thing is the rich generals have money stacked in Swiss banks; they will all leave the moment bombing starts, with the poor Pakistanis bearing the brunt as usual.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,
    Also, Manohar, I think the generals are doing this (attacks, killings etc) 1) to keep the morale up of the Pak soldiers and 2) some section of the public must be liking that, thus preserving their “admired” status in the society (as you know the army was considered in high esteem until the Osama raid.
    But that high esteem will collapse if there is one more raid, say capturing Zawahari or one of the Hacquani boys

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I still do not have the answer to my question.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well, that is what i was trying to explain– I think pakistan/its army believes they can get away with murder (literally). So, they are doing it for domestic consumption –to show their citizens that they are not beholden to US (the pakistni citizens are agaginst US) ; also the junior officers and the fighting force is so much against US, that the generals once a while allows haquani/its own army attack on us army personnel. — all with the assumptiona nd belief that US will not retaliate, because US needs Pakisatn! (“theyneed us”)… But I think Pak is an illusion; whatw as true until few months ago may not be true anymore; with supply lines etc diversified, osama laden killed, al queda in pak almost eliminated..
    The generals do not understand the changed “terrain”…

  • Anonymous

    @Ashish and anyone else
    Be careful about what you say about Bengal communists. I have lived in Bengal for 25 years and seen each of them from CPM-CPI split ( yes they were one party first until one part , CPI , accepted Soviet Union as the mother land ! ) , seen CPI-ML rise in late sixties and am aware of each of the jewels of the comunist family from RSP to FB ( but they also claim loyalty to Netaji ! ) . I have mostly scorn and derision for their politics of sloganeering , which mostly consists of slogans like ‘Down with American imprealism ( american samrajo-bad nipat jaak ) and ‘break Indira Gandhi’s black hand ( Indira Gandhi’r kalo haat , bhengay dao, guriya dao ) etc. Sure all political paries in Bengal ( from Communits to Congress ) have criminal elements as any party in power attracts criminals , because the party in power can afford protection. Since Comminists have been in power for almost 3 decades in Bengal, after the Siddhartha Shankar Ray administration in seventies, which was not good either, they have to bear the majority of the blame.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Rajiv,
    yeah; I lived through those Naxal and SS Ray years in Calcutta- came to Delhi in 1977. Went back for a 2 year stay in early nineties.
    Bengal elections always had very colourful slogans- didn’t they? “Aamar naam tomaar naam, Vietnam vietnam”, “Lal shuto neel shuto, Congress key maaro juto”, “Jora boloder doodh nei, Congress’er vote nei” and the famous Kutty Cartoon -”Garibi Hatao Machine”.. which we saw painted in all walls during the 1977 elections.
    Bengal is in deep sh*t; it has been like this for the last four decades and more- from mid sixties, when a succession of events- the Naxal movement, the influx of refugees from Bangladesh, the poor SS Ray admin was followed by Jyoti Basu’s CPM.
    There is a certain cussedness in the Bengali psyche that I have never understood- which other place would you rename a street where the American Consulate is located as Ho Chi Minh Sarani?
    As for the blame, obviously CPM/ Left front gets the blame and that’s why it lost the elections- my only fear is that the politics of confrontation and nay-saying will not stop under Mamata.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    How brazenly duplicitious and treacherous , Pakistan , can be
    Read from NY Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/world/asia/pakistanis-tied-to-2007-attack-on-americans.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

    A group of American military officers and Afghan officials had just finished a five-hour meeting with their Pakistani hosts in a village schoolhouse settling a border dispute when they were ambushed — by the Pakistanis.

    An Afghan soldier near the border with Pakistan in May 2007, around the time of a border dispute and an attack on Americans.
    An American major was killed and three American officers were wounded, along with their Afghan interpreter, in what fresh accounts from the Afghan and American officers who were there reveal was a complex, calculated assault by a nominal ally. The Pakistanis opened fire on the Americans, who returned fire before escaping in a blood-soaked Black Hawk helicopter.

    The attack, in Teri Mangal on May 14, 2007, was kept quiet by Washington, which for much of a decade has seemed to play down or ignore signals that Pakistan would pursue its own interests, or even sometimes behave as an enemy.

    The reconstruction of the attack, which several officials suggested was revenge for Afghan or Pakistani deaths at American hands, takes on new relevance given the worsening rupture in relations between Washington and Islamabad, which has often been restrained by Pakistan’s strategic importance.

    The details of the ambush indicate that Americans were keenly aware of Pakistan’s sometimes duplicitous role long before Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate last week that Pakistan’s intelligence service was undermining efforts in Afghanistan and had supported insurgents who attacked the American Embassy in Kabul this month.

    ……………….”

    If India thinks, that the current powers ( Army/ISI ) that rule Pakistan are amernable to reason, then India is a bigger fool than USA.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, sorry did not mean to hurt you. When you passed strong value judgement on others, the others took it well.
    When I passed a minor judgement on you in the gentle way, while at the same highlighting your plus points, you call me troll ¡!!!!!!!!!
    You will notice that on subject of communism in Bungal and its evil influence lasting decades, all of us, respected voices all spoke up= mishraji, gopi, mittal, rajiiv,

    All trolls Prof Ashish ??????? If you are second best, not end of world u know

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Viju
    Where are you? Hope u r ok..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, Sanjay and others too.

    One must realise that Marxism/Communism was never a democratic choice of any society, except perhaps in some Indian states (would welcome any more examples outside of India). It was thrust upon the people by their ideologues, who promised the proletariat “just and ideal” system (the heavens if you like), as compared to the system that was being replaced. When the delusion set in (many reasons – the theory and the system itself were flawed, absolute dictatorial practices, etc.), the system was just thrown out by the very proletariat. In short, communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) and that is why perhaps some of the leaders and the committed cadre welcomed the 1962 incursions by the Chinese, hoping it would overrun the entire country – it would be the only way to usher in communism throughout India.

    In 1969, I had accompanied a journalist friend to meet N G Gore, one of the doyens of the Socialist movement in India, I think he was member of the Praja Socialist Party then. He was realistic enough to admit that communism and socialism would never succeed in India – the principal reason being that these ideologies put temporal matters above spiritual matters, adding that one cannot just go around India telling people that there is no God.

    IMO, the communist system in its totality under our Constitution (one of the most remarkable documents ever) is bound to fail.

    That the people of West Bengal kept returning the communist parties to power for thirty odd years is remarkable in itself. Whether people were patient enough to wait for that heaven on earth, I do not know (perhaps you would elaborate on the reasons). Mamta Bannerji could be considered a milder version of the communist leadership she has replaced.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    The first democratically elected communist govrt happened in kerala, soon after the “14 states” were formed. EMS Namboodiripad, Joseph Mundassery etc formed the first communist govt. Nehru Govt dismissed the govt in 1960. Thee ducatio miister, Joseph Mundassery, brought several education reforms, that made the Church scream about minority rights..A coalition with congress, muslim league, and PSP came to power in the elections after that. But Communists/EMS came back in the enxt electionss. The last ministry before the March elections was a Marxist led mibnistry. Marxists is still the largest political party, with Congress a distant second.. Congress cannot form a ministry on its own (for that matter neither Marxists).. Congress has an alliance with Muslim league which makes it win when Marxist coalition does not win.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Any movement, ideology, etc has a shelf life- well, at least most do.
    When we talk about Communism (forget the shades and variants), we are talking
    - the economic philosophy
    - the socio-political philosophy
    And, lest we forget, it is also, about the prevailing social, economic and political context and time, as with any movement.
    Now, with a political movement, an additional dimension comes in- the leadership. If you look at the Bengal political landscape, especially during the CPM era, I would have voted CPM- just to keep the Congress at bay- so utterly uninspiring were the local Congress guys. The CPM used the “Operation Barga” as an instrument of power consolidation in the rural areas. More on this later.
    In normal times, Mamata would not win in Bengal- she is the first politician in Bengal that did not fit the “bhadra-mahila” image.. but, the people in Bengal, fed up of the misrule of the left over the years, needed and got a change. Whether she is a milder version of CPM, only time will tell- IMO, she will continue the downward spiral of WB/PB; even accelerate it.
    Has communism been a total failure? Oh, no. In many areas, in giving rise to trade-unions, in giving a political face to movements for social justice.. it has been extremely successful.
    Cummunism will not succeed in India because
    - India is too diverse.
    - Communism in fundamentally against human nature- this applies everywhere where communism as a system of economic-political governance has failed- whether it is Eastern Europe or Cuba. China is a fascinating case where there is capitalism in economic front and communism in politics.
    God, IMO, has nothing to do with it. You can be a non-believer yet be a capitalist AND a democrat (not synonymous!).
    communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) Why communism alone? All of us are born in a political system (like a religion) and hopefully die in it! Do we really have a choice in being ruled by a different system?
    So, this free choice is all “maya”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    —————

    “I would have voted CPM- just to keep the Congress at bay- so utterly uninspiring were the local Congress guys”.

    I have yet to pen a few lines about Congress’ decline as discussed in the previous blog. Will do so in a day or two.

    —————–

    “communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) Why communism alone? All of us are born in a political system (like a religion) and hopefully die in it! Do we really have a choice in being ruled by a different system”?

    1) Systems are not be judged within one’s lifetime alone, yet ……. see below

    2) Suppose in the general/state elections, the Communists were to win comfortably at the centre and in all the states. In that case, you would have a communist policies ruling us – they could amend the constitution, nationalise anything that moves free, blah, blah, blah. However, there could be a problem, if they did not go back to the people after five years to seek another mandate – they would have a chaotic situation that they would not be able to control at all. You would have the exactly the same scenario in case a Hindu Rashtra (a la RSS) was established. Remember, even Indira Gandhi had to seek a mandate in 1977 – nothing would have changed for quite a long time if she had not done so.

    I keep shouting from the terraces –

    one person , one vote and the freedom to exercise that right –

    is the best and legitimate system so far. We get governments and polices we deserve (cannot blame someone else). Make good choices, get good governments and policies. Make bad choices, …….

    Any better alternative! – I would not be averse to try it out or at least discuss it here.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Democracy and universal adult franchise are non-negotiable. We are not even discussing it.
    I think you are falling into the trap of absolutism- with the RSS and the CPM, both.
    In the highly unlikely eventuality that the CPM won a 2/3rd majority in the parliament, are you sure they will do all that you (and I) abhor?
    Are you sure that CPM (and this is a very contentious issue; something that Rajiv alludes to partially) is even a communist party?
    Same with RSS. I know folks who think RSS has strayed from the “pure” path- fancy!
    The so-called communist parties in our country (bar the Maoists and some factions of CPIML) are really only left of centre. Unlike Congress who discover left-of-centrism only at the time of elections.
    Now, being consistently left of centre is not easy in today’s world- it leads to black and white view of the world. Today’s world has different challenges than when Marxism first became a dogma- very difficult to analyse by using tired cliche’s like imperialism and super-power hegemony and so on.
    So, anything that the US does on the global stage becomes necessarily bad- Israel is opposed in everything it does.. their world-view is a prisoner of decades past paradigm.
    Again, it is a system of thought which is in decline worldwide. But, it has left its imprint in many unconscious ways on the way we think. The idea of social justice, distributing the benefits and fruits of labour, organising for collective bargaining, bringing agricultural workers into being defined as workers in the first place.. lots.
    It has ensured that the capitalists have had to think of a well-fed and productive workforce.
    I have a lot of faith in the diversity of India- it will finally ensure that monolithic and/ or exclusionary systems do not take root. The governance deficit that we see in many parts of this country that has led to the Maoists gaining asecendancy will hopefully be redressed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Democracy and universal adult franchise are non-negotiable. We are not even discussing it”. As for you, I know it is not, the other systems which we are discussing would like to throw this out of the window at the first available opportunity.
    ————-
    “The so-called communist parties in our country (bar the Maoists and some factions of CPIML) are really only left of centre”.

    Do they have a choice or the Indian ethos makes sure that they are not Marxists in the true sense of the word?
    —————
    I was only alluding to the possibility of communists or communalists (not much difference in spelling, eh!) ruling all over. I too feel that it will not happen – our country is too diverse (its primary strength)(*) and also perhaps the voter has learnt a lesson of putting such ideologies do not hold sway. No need to give examples.

    I am also in agreement with rest of your observations.

    * – The Shiv Sena was launched on anti-South Indian rhetoric in Bombay, it worked to certain extent. When they decided to expand the area of influence, they found there were not enough or no South Indians in smaller towns and villages as to present an imagined threat, so they changed the target of their hate – Muslims. Again, they met with same fate – not enough or none in many parts of the State. Finally they settled for ‘only-marathi-manoos’ and that too is not and will not pay enough dividends – because it is all talk and hardly any action on the ground. Some people never learn.

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    a side discussion or maybe not…
    I have always been amazed about the Shiv Sena- have never lived in Mumbai- but used to be a frequent visitor in the nineties.
    How do thugs like them gain even partial respectability? How is it that Bal Thakeray and his family do not ever get hauled up in court?
    No hurry; whenever you get some time; a considered response will be appreciated.

  • Anonymous

    This is what mishra wrote
    Last week a christan girl got thrashed for misspelling a word in her class 8 exam and being accused of blasphemy.
    WHAT HE DIDN’T WANT THE HUMANE BLOGGERS TO KNOW
    The Masihi Foundation has asked two Islamic clerics in Islamabad to give their opinion on the matter, Maulana Mehfooz Ali Khan and Hussain Ahmed Malik. Maulana said: “It is the innocent mistake of a child. Many Muslim students in the madrasas incorrectly pronounce the Arabic words, changing their meaning, you can not punish a child for an honest mistake, the girl was only 10 years old,

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The roots of bengalees fascination with Communism.
    ASHISH IS BEST PLACED TO ENLIGHTEN US ALL , AND WE SHOULD TAKE HIS EVERY WORD AS GOSPEL TRUTH.Also perhaps he could let us know his dad’s opinion on this matter , anything less is a HISTORICALBLUNDER.
    let’s find out who came up with this ideology .Well HE WAS NO MUG . And he saw the world around him WHICH WAS A HORRIBLE WORLD.He had left germany fleeing persecution, HE WAS SEEING SCIENCE DEMOLISHING BRICK BY BRICK all old assumptions about Divine Right , Divinity etc.
    His firend Angels , a manchunian jew and a textile trader ,led him to the WORKHOUSES in London , and the grisly treatment of children described with candour by DICKENS, who used to live in SHORNE , a ten minutes drive from where i live.Also the capitalism of his time was VICIOUS, it is unrecognisable now.
    Coming back to Bengal.I THINK TAGORE’S NOBEL PRIZE(first in Asia,that includes Japan) DID IT. We had an avalanche of literary figures and movement.CONDESCENSION TOWARDS BUSINESS STARTED FROM THEN.
    Also these MARWARI businessmen were CROOKS ,not a role model , this reinforced the prejudice even further .
    Also the URBAN EDUCATED unemployed MIDDLE CLASS is always LEFT WING
    anywhere in the world . And the bengalee middle class is thoroughly DHANDHA averse. ALSO CRAVING FOR MONEY IS NOT ACUTE LIKE THE OTHER STATES
    they prize literature , music arts .ALSO PEOPLE SHOULD KEEP INMIND CPM NEVER GOT MORE THAN 32% VOTES AT ITS HEIGHT OF POPULARITY.
    The new generation IS COMPLETELY FREE OF LEFT WING IDEOLOGY
    Ashish is the person to say the last word on this matter for obvious reasons

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Om swaha !

    ________CASH FOR VOTE_________

    “After reaching Le Meridien, my cameraperson switched on the spycams on the two MPs. Argal, Kulaste and Hindustani went inside. Kulkarni, my cameraperson and I drove to Café Coffee Day at Janpath and had coffee while we were waiting for the BJP MPs to return. After some time Kulkarni received a call on his phone and we all went and parked ourselves near the exit gate of the hotel,” says Gautam.

    After some time, the MPs and Hindustani emerged from the hotel. “Argal came and told us that nothing had happened at the hotel. There was nobody inside. I was surprised,” Gautam told Tehelka. “I took the recorders from the two MPs and started reviewing the footage. The footage showed random shots of the hotel lobby. It showed them walking inside the hotel, walking around the lobby and waiting at the coffee shop. But, there was no negotiation or Congress leader on the camera or any kind of meeting. I told them the footage had nothing.”

    “Kulkarni got visibly upset at this fiasco,” he continues. “He asked Hindustani what went wrong. Hindustani replied that Patel had waited for them but since they were late reaching the hotel, he left.”

    Gautam told Tehelka he had no way of finding out if there was actually a meeting set up between Patel and the BJP men. “I don’t know if Patel had actually come there at all. I found this guy (Hindustani) very suspicious but since he was our only source for the story I had to carry on,” he says.

    After the failed attempt to get Patel, Kulkarni, Hindustani and the BJP MPs became desperate. Hindustani assured Kulkarni he would make more phone calls and line up some other buyers. “Hindustani said we would have to go to another place for the sting. I told him if we want to record more footage, this particular footage had to be deleted as there was a shortage of space. Since there was nothing in the footage, we decided to delete it.”

    Around 11 pm, the entire group shifted to 4 Feroze Shah Road, which was Argal’s official residence. Until then, the sting operation was being planned and executed from Kulkarni’s official residence at 17 Balwant Rai Mehta Lane. The no-confidence motion was scheduled in a little less than 16 hours. The clock was ticking. It was at this stage that the BJP turned its attention to Amar Singh. Having realised that Ahmed Patel was out of bounds, a desperate and last-ditch effort was now made to entrap Amar Singh, who everyone knew had the reputation of being a powerbroker.

    After the Le Meridien episode, Gautam had suggested to Kulkarni that it would be better if spycams were fixed in a room and all the meetings from hereon were held at a fixed place. Kulkarni had said that since no one would come to his place, it was better to shift the scene of the sting to Argal’s official residence instead.

    On the way to Argal’s residence, Gautam said Hindustani kept trying to line up buyers. After reaching Argal’s place, the CNN-IBN team fixed the two spycams in the drawing room. While the reporter and camerapersons were bugging the room, Hindustani kept pacing outside, making calls to people in his bid to line up someone who could come and offer the BJP MPs money to defect.

    At the other end, Argal too kept trying to find some buyer. He made several phone calls to different people, telling them he and two more MPs were ready to sell themselves for a good price. In all these recorded conversations, Argal can be heard luring people into the trap by announcing that he and two more BJP MPs were ready to sell themselves for a price. Tehelka now has in its possession 10 such telephone conversations that Argal made to unidentified middlemen.

    Argal could be heard telling somebody in one telephone call: “Mere paas do MPs aur hai…tum bula ke jitna daam ho utna aa ja….time nahi hai…wok kya hai doosra aadmi aur jagah bhi bhatak rahe hai na. Jitna hai utna le aao tum log”. (I have two more MPs…You call them and tell them how much…there is no time…see, the second man is roaming around. Bring whatever amount you have).

    The man at the other end replied that it was too late to act as it was already around midnight.

    “Barah baj rahe hai toh aap baat karlo. Main savere nau sade naun baje tak ghar pe rahoonga” (It is midnight, you talk. I will be at home till 9-9.30 tomorrow morning), Argal could be heard replying. He then added, ”Ek Mahavir Bhagora hai aur ek sajjan Faggan Singh Kulaste hai. Yeh Rajasthan ke hai, Udaipur ke aas paas. Adivasi quota ke hai” (One is Mahavir Bhagora and another is Faggan Singh Kulaste. He is from Rajasthan, somewhere near Udaipur. From the tribal quota).

    The man at the other end assures that he would come the next morning. At this point, Argal says again: “.” (Hold talks. Just bring the money. We will just abstain. You just hold the talks and come to us.)

    Shockingly, this particular conversation and nine other telephone conversations, which are now in exclusive possession of Tehelka, reveal that, at least in this instance, it was the BJP MPs—supported by no less than men of the stature of Sudheendra Kulkarni and Arun Jaitley—who were actively soliciting a buyer and not the UPA which was hunting for bribe-takers.

    Sample this: In another conversation with a middleman (it’s not clear whether it’s the same middleman as in previous conversations or another one), Argal could be heard saying this: “Aadmi koi jimmedar hai ki aisi hi hai. (Is there somebody responsible who is going to negotiate?)” The voice at the other end is not clear. Argal replies: “Nahi to fir kya jawab do main (So what should I tell them?).” A few seconds later Argal says: “Aap baat kar lo pahle. Unko main bata do ki kitna.. sansad badnaam to bahut ho rahe hai aapko maloom hi hai.(You first consult with them. What should I tell them (referring to two other BJP MPs) that how much…You know the bad name that MPs are earning)”

    In yet another conversation Argal could he heard saying: “Token to poocho kitna hai. Kya unka man hai? To main bata doo unko. (Just find out what’s the amount of token. What’s on their mind? So I could tell them (the other two MPs).”

    In another conversation Argal is saying, “Koi jimmedaar ho to humko leke chale aur koi jimmedar aadmi se baat kara de. (If there is somebody responsible who could take us to another responsible man so we could negotiate.)”

    Later in another conversation he says, “To hum kaha pe jaaye..koi humko bataye hum kaha pea a jaaye. Koi aadmi bharose ka ho to to hum jaaye (So where should we come? Somebody should tell us where we should come. If there is somebody responsible we will come).”

    In another clip Argal says: “Agar Kapil Sibal jaisa koi jimmedar aadmi ho to hum baat kar sakte hai. Hamare saath koi chota mota aadmi thodi na hai, purva mantra raha hai. (If there is somebody as big as Kapil Sibal we are ready to come. I also have with me a former minister (referring to a BJP MP who was being offered for sale).’

    It is clear from this conversation that Argal was trying to send a message out to different middlemen that he and two more MPs were on sale. Gautam has told Tehelka that this was exactly what was happening—a last ditch effort was made to find buyers.

    Clearly, there was a desperate plan to destabilise the government with proof of horse-trading—to be acquired at any cost. “There were two simultaneous efforts being made to entrap somebody,” says Gautam. “One effort was being made by Argal. Another parallel attempt was being made by Hindustani who was making frantic calls outside in the lawn.”

    ___

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne020411Coverstory.asp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    With so much of “explosive” material capable of damning BJP leaders like Arun Jaitely, why is Tehelka so lacking in credibility for so long, even in congress circles? Why front line editors like Vinod Sharma dread quoting Tehelka, even while defending the indefensible cash-for-vote scam? Why Ram Jethmalani’s claim in the court, quoting Amar Singh that the maoney came from Ahmed Patel is not being contested by any of the media leading lights?
    Why is Rajdeep Saardesai, the ral kingpin of the sting, not coming out with the original CD?

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    MANOHAR

    Nice take on communism in Bengal. You spoke- ‘ That the people of West Bengal kept returning the communist parties to power for thirty odd years is remarkable in itself ‘
    Do you think it was poverty of money AND a poverty of ideas ? I find that both Jehadi Islamism and communism had a few similarities-
    1. Violence or the threat of it
    2. A ‘book’, small enough to be carried about anywhere
    3. Indoctrination, particularly of the oppressed and poor
    4. And the biggest irony- both communism and jehadism are a definite threat to others BUT THE BIGGEST DAMAGE THEY DO IS TO THE SOCIETY PRACTICING IT.
    comments welcome

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    manohar- A CONFESSION

    From the age of 15-18 I was a fan of socialism, big fan. Hated the priveleges of my monied friends esp the ones whose fathers had big businesses and factories.
    Then I started reading avidly, about human nature, family values, the desire to pass on something towards progeny, the total inefficiency and laziness of workers who were on collectives, the empty shelves in Russia and the fact that people were risking death fleeing the Berlin wall.

    And I saw the thuggish CPI ML cadres who were coming to the AIIMS guest rooms annually for their rallies. Seeing them up close was unnerving. I thought I did not want those angry twisted men in charge of my lives.

    While I hate quoting foreign authors, ‘We the living’ by Ayn Rand ( I did not like her other books) made a mark on me. I started changing but those socialist years means I still cringe if anyone says do you support capitalism.

    I like to say- controlled capitalism or capitalism with a human face, and then I flounder. ANYONE PLEASE HELP- is there a term, an economic philosophy that the world is inching to ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “I like to say- controlled capitalism or capitalism with a human face, and then I flounder. ANYONE PLEASE HELP- is there a term, an economic philosophy that the world is inching to”?

    Of course, capitalism is controlled by various acts and laws (in addition to the market forces) of the country in question – it cannot be free for all. Other than one’s rights, it is incumbent upon the entities to be aware and carry out their responsibilities/duties.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    manohar jee capitalism has no human face.it is a predatory force like every third person in america has phychtratic problem.in india suicide has increased many fold.development is increasing poverty.because of inflation.interest economy is suckin g the blood of common man.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I assume you do not consider Right Wing Religious Fundamentalism, a threat.

    Well I do.

    I would actually put the threat from Right Wing Hindu Fundamentalism in India at par with the threat posed by Left Wing Fundamentalism.

    Your omission is note worthy.

    Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    I was about to post more or less the same observations.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    Do not understand why you bring “right wing hindu fundamentalism” as a current and present threat to India/world.
    Last time I checked, it was Jehadis killing left and right in many countries. Communism also killed (not anmore) millions (jehadism has not freached that level!)

    I do not think Mishra omitted anything. You are contemplating on a mythical what if; he is sayig about the present and now.

    And waht does right wing Hinduism have o do with Wazirstan attack?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    You just check in all the wrong places.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb

    “Do not understand why you bring “right wing hindu fundamentalism” as a current and present threat to India/world”.

    Even I am of the opinion that it is a threat – any form of fundamentalism is one.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi interesting, u say left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism. India became independent in 1948, pl can you do the sums and tell me since you seem to specialise in latter.
    Your answer eagely awaited. Pl be specific, last time you said 5000 dalit women get raped EVERYDAY.
    2. Manohar, this hindu terror that bothers you, is it reactionary by any chance ??that does not reduce its evil, but distinction is imp. Godhra and gujrat butchery comes to mind.
    ravi and manohar pl

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Where did I say that “left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism.”

    Please identify, where I made that statement.

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    ALL organisations with extreme ideological beliefs and a propensity to use violence to further their objectives are by definition terrorists.

    In UK, the IRA and the UVF are both terrorist organisations.

    LeT, Jaish-e-Mohamad, etc are Terrorists. The RSS is not shy of using terrorism as an occasional weapon of choice, same applies to Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, Babbar Khalsa, etc etc.

    The Haqqani group is slightly different. Mr Haqqani Snr was a war lord during the period when US wanted the USSR out. It is larger than a terrorist organisation it is almost a state within a state.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balls is now Trolls

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Manohar, this hindu terror that bothers you, is it reactionary by any chance ??that does not reduce its evil, but distinction is imp. Godhra and gujrat butchery comes to mind.”

    I do not make distinctions by quantifying crime and then say this OK and that not OK. Nor would it be based on which side of the divide I am, the fact that I am not either side is lost on many of the trolls, actually they falsely pretend it is otherwise for their nefarious purposes.

    To me, crime is crime – whether one life lost or thousands and someone has to be held responsible – criminally and morally.

    I am very clear, any fundamentalist or exclusivist ideology is danger to the society.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Do you think it was poverty of money AND a poverty of ideas”?

    Ashish has answered that question in another thread in detail.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Manohar and Shoeb

    Manohar, I am sure you were not expecting me to answer the question you posed, but IMHO that the following at least partially answers the question.

    A SHARE IN CONTROLING THE POST-WAR AFGHANISTAN.

    Who will find no seat, when the music stops

    Most analysts point out that what is happening in Afghanistan and its Eastern border is powerful groups jostling for status in post war Afghanistan. Haqqani group of mercenaries are no different in this respect.

    The Major contenders for power and influence are, the US backed Afghan Government, The Pakistan backed Afghan Taliban, The Independant Haqqani Group, Pakistan and India. The ultimate prize is who is able to exercise hegemony in Afghanistan.

    US’s preferred scenario is; to allow India a significant role and Pakistan sees that as the US and India meddling in its backyard and all its activities must be seen in this context. Its fear is that India may encircle it, just as China is encircling India by using Pakistan as its western proxy.

    The Haqqani’s are playing a complex game, but essentially, they want to secure their business interests; smuggling, protection, trucking, etc. The ISI has outsourced some of its interests to the Haqqanis who for a price are willing to their dirty work in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants Afghanistan to become its client state.

    The Afghan Taliban and the Afghan Government may come to a compromised power sharing agreement, just as the US is about to leave.

    In this game of musical chairs, guess who may find no where to sit when the music stops.

    Shoeb

    In response to my post above you posted the following….

    Ravi
    Pakistan “satisfies” all requirements to be classified as a “terrorist state”. Wih the Indian embassy bombings last year using ISI/Haquni in Kabul, and the bombings on US army in Afghanistan (thru Haquani) Pakistan fulfills the UN requirements .. Un resolution 1368 on terrorism states that nations found to be “supporting or harbouring the perpretators, organizers, and sponsors of thease acts will be held equally accountable”– So, Pakistan should be declared by the UN (or by US) as a terrorist nation; assets frozen, bombings to dismantle the terror network conducted.

    Any Indian who is against this when UN/US declare it a terrorist state should be considered a terrorist and kept im jail, because there will be “Muslim friends”, politicians, “liberals”, “secularists” etc here on this side of the border who is against declaring Pakistan officially as a terrorist state.

    This may come as a surprise to you, every one – INCLUDING ME – knows and acknowledge that Pakistan is Terrorist State. No ifs, No buts.

    However, what you say does not connect with my post yet it was posted as your response to it.

    I will be very happy for UN to declare Pakistan as a terrorist state. Libya was declared a terrorist state decades ago, apart from one missile attack nothing practical came out of it.

    Likewise, Iraq was declared as a terrorist state, after it had fought a long war with Iran on instigation of the US.

    I am of the view little more than PR value will come out of declaring Pakistan a terrorist state. The risk is that Pakistan finding itself isolated would become even more hostile towards India and China would exploit that situation.

    BTW US declared RSS and LeT as a terrorist organisation, did that make any difference!!

    Shoeb, I am sorry for my abusive behaviour towards you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Manohar, I am sure you were not expecting me to answer the question you posed, …”

    All are welcome to make positive contributions to the discussions/debates.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Ashish & Dr Mishra

    I understand that JNU runs some excellent courses on History.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mishra used the following lines
    Last week a christan girl got thrashed for misspelling a word in her class 8 exam and being accused of blasphemy.
    WHAT HE DELIBERATELY HID WAS THIS
    The Masihi Foundation has asked two Islamic clerics in Islamabad to give their opinion on the matter, Maulana Mehfooz Ali Khan and Hussain Ahmed Malik.
    Maulana said: “It is the innocent mistake of a child. Many Muslim students in the madrasas incorrectly pronounce the Arabic words, changing their meaning, you can not punish a child for an honest mistake, the girl was only 10 years old
    BLOGGERS JUDGE THE MAN FOR YOURSELF

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    What do you expect from people who form opinions based upon sensational news reporting.

    Accuracy or balanced detail is not what they want, cheap propoganda is what their objective is.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    cingulategyrus- a medical term- is that you SHAN
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/girl-accused-of-blasphemy-for-a-spelling-error/
    I quoted this article which speaks about thrashing of girl, her expulsion, the hounding of her mother. Nothing else.
    You are my medical junior in UK, your behaviour to your senior who has actually protected you over the last year, is bizarre

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Most of my ex-profs have gone back there to teach )-;

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Thank you Shoeb.
    Lets have a vote, WHO THINKS THAT HINDU TERRORISM is as dangerous or has killed as many ppl as LEFT WING TERRORISM, maoists, communists, naxalites.
    pl no waffle, just brief discusion and vote.

    So far score balwinder= shoeb 1
    ravi= 0
    i am keen to learn abt magnitude of hindu terror or to bin in category of 5000 dalit rapes, a politicisation and gross exageration of a terrible social evil

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    You asked for a response.

    I provided one. I guess you did not like it, so now the fake survey.

    See if I give a toss to the outcome.

    Just count how many died during the Partition, no left wing organisation was involved there.

    The Nazi’s were a right wing religious organisation who managed to kill 6 million Jews.

    You have absolutely no idea beyond cheap gimmicks.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-
    Was any right wing organization involved in partition killings?
    And Was Nazis a right wing “religious” organization? Or just right wing organization?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    An emphatic YES to both

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    Well, it is news.
    Nazism had the race superiority issue; they considered Jews inferior, (more than inferior, as a threat to Aryans), but they themselves were not exclusive Roman Catholics or Germanic protestants..in fact they taunted the priests to preach their stuff.
    Are you saying that since they were against jews, they were for some religion? (they were for the race and to protect the race from evils of jewry, communism, trade unionism, and other isms)
    Which right wing religious organization was involved in partition killings? Hindus killed Muslims, Muslims killed Hindus and Sikhs – was any right wing religious organization actively involved in mass killings? Jamait? Rashtriya Swayamsevak? Akali?

    engrich Reply:

    hich right wing religious organization was involved in partition killings

    mostly rss

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder,

    Fake Ravi’s infamous “5000 dalit rapes a day by caste Hindus” is the fantasising of a sick mind of a perverted jihadi.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    It still remains more balanced then your rancid extreme Hindu Fundo Crypto Fascism.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    THIS IS WHAT I SAID

    BALWINDER CAN NOT READ his comprehension is at about the same level as a Bonobo Chimp

    Dr Mishra

    I assume you do not consider Right Wing Religious Fundamentalism, a threat.

    Well I do.

    I would actually put the threat from Right Wing Hindu Fundamentalism in India at par with the threat posed by Left Wing Fundamentalism.

    Your omission is note worthy.

    Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    A bull-sh.it theory, “Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides”.

    What was Rajiv Gandhi’s “ideological extremism” which made him commit the only pogrom against the Sikh kaum in the 500 year history of Sikhism?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy-

    You are right Rajiv G did not have any ideological extreme.. However, isnt it a little too much to link him with the riots? Or even call it a “progrom” ?
    (or in other words, be careful, you are becoming a Ravi!)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    But that is what one gets if the view is through – let me repeat – a cracked Hindutvawadi prism.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, if you read the dictionary for meaning, what Rajiv had got ordered against the Sikhs, four thousand of them-men, women and also children,was nothing less than a POGROM in capital (letters). If you feel, you can de-link him from the pogrom or if you feel, you can also equate me with Ravi.

    BUT WHILE OPINIONS ARE FREE, FACTS ARE SACRED.

  • Anonymous

    Arresting people who expose crime ?
    Why are the whistle blowers in the cash-for-vote scam to save Manmohan-Sonia sarkar being arrested ? This is total travesty.

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2490042.ece?homepage=true

    “Sudheendra Kulkarni, former aide of BJP leader L.K. Advani, was on Tuesday arrested and sent to the Tihar Central Jail in judicial custody by a special court in the cash-for-vote case. It rejected his interim bail plea.

    The court also deferred to Wednesday the passing of an order on the former Samajwadi Party general secretary, Amar Singh’s regular bail application and extended his interim bail on medical grounds by a day.

    Mr. Kulkarni appeared in the court for the first time after the charge sheet was filed. He had sought exemption from personal appearance twice, saying he was in the U.S. to help secure his daughter’s admission in a university. The court had given an ultimatum to him to appear before it on Tuesday. Special Judge Sangita Dhingra Sehgal will hear his regular bail application on October 1.

    Mr. Kulkarni said he was a “whistleblower.” He criticised the Delhi Police Crime Branch’s claim that he was the “mastermind” of the operation. “If my purpose was to receive illegal gratification, I would have pocketed the money. The deal was not for the Rs.1 crore that the three BJP MPs displayed on the floor of Parliament but for Rs. 9 crore. I would want to pocket the rest of the money and be quiet about it. I was a whistleblower and my purpose was to expose the horse trading in the Lok Sabha.”

    meanwhile it looks like the crime branch has no interest in finding the actual criminals, the people who provided the money !

    “At this, Mr. Kulkarni’s counsel said: “They have not even investigated the source and the purpose of the money that was passed on.”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ……
    On the way to Argal’s residence, Gautam said Hindustani kept trying to line up buyers. After reaching Argal’s place, the CNN-IBN team fixed the two spycams in the drawing room. While the reporter and camerapersons were bugging the room, Hindustani kept pacing outside, making calls to people in his bid to line up someone who could come and offer the BJP MPs money to defect.

    At the other end, Argal too kept trying to find some buyer. He made several phone calls to different people, telling them he and two more MPs were ready to sell themselves for a good price. In all these recorded conversations, Argal can be heard luring people into the trap by announcing that he and two more BJP MPs were ready to sell themselves for a price. Tehelka now has in its possession 10 such telephone conversations that Argal made to unidentified middlemen.

    Argal could be heard telling somebody in one telephone call: “Mere paas do MPs aur hai…tum bula ke jitna daam ho utna aa ja….time nahi hai…wok kya hai doosra aadmi aur jagah bhi bhatak rahe hai na. Jitna hai utna le aao tum log”. (I have two more MPs…You call them and tell them how much…there is no time…see, the second man is roaming around. Bring whatever amount you have).

    …..
    Clearly, there was a desperate plan to destabilise the government with proof of horse-trading—to be acquired at any cost. “There were two simultaneous efforts being made to entrap somebody,” says Gautam. “One effort was being made by Argal. Another parallel attempt was being made by Hindustani who was making frantic calls outside in the lawn.”

    ___

    Full Story below :

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne020411Coverstory.asp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,

    the Delhi police have not been able to “find” Amar Singh’s driver, who has answers to several questions about the money trail, literally. RAm Jethmalani, Amar Singh’s counsel, has told the court that the money came from Ahmed Patel, but Patel has not even been questioned.Rajdeep Sardesai, who had played the dirtiest trick of all whistle-blowing operations too has not been questioned, nor the original tape confiscated.

    It is quite strange that the judge has not thought it fit to question the police about these patently biased decisions of the Delhi police.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi, others can read, leave it to them. Wait for vote or discussion. You have now brought in nazism and partition deaths to distract, you are digging deeper hole for yourself, tomorrow ppl will get more angry with you.

    Both of us should now be silent and let respected bloggers vote. As you can see shoeb is independent of his religion, ashosh and mishraji are independent of caste and fight over issues, ashish and rajiiv ate bengalis but differ= so u see total independence here. Ppl vote on issues, on ideology, on rationality and logic. Well 98 percent anyway. Hehe

    So pl u keep quiet, and same I, and we count votes tomorrow

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You can’t read, that is evident.

    All you can do is indulge in juvenile mischief.

    You think it gives you gravitas, it doesn’t.

    It confirms what you are a challa sikh.

    [Reply]

    Ajaykohli Reply:

    Once this jehadi loses an argument, he starts carping on one’e religion ! What a pathetic person !!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar_T , will you have the guts to answer a straight question
    HAVE YOU READ , DAS CAPITAL and the works of karl Marx ’s friend and collaborator Angels . I HAVENT. It is not possible , unless you are committed as probably Ashish’s dad.
    Just like if any balwinder sandhu says he has read GIBBON’S Decline and Fall of Roman Empire. It will have me in stitches. In fact it is impossible to finish those books , with our lifestyle. ONLY ASHISH CAN ANSWER WHY COMMUNIST IDEOLOGY HAD A SUCH AHOLD ON MIDDLE CLASS BENGALI PSYCHE, HIS WORDS NEEDS TO BE TAKEN AS GOSPEL TRUTH.

    Having lived in uk for some time , where marx lived , hampstead to be precise , and his friend Angels , a manchester jewish textile merchant, these are my stray thoughts
    Marx was no MUG. He lived at a time where he saw the grisly picture of WORKHOUSES in london , where children worked exactly like CARPET FACTORIES of AGRA and cow belt.
    He saw how the workers were treated like serf. But he did not arrive at his conclusions by some DIVINE VISITATION. hE STUDIED THE REPORT OF THE inspectors and all the DATA mined by them .I read this in The Guardian.
    Also he saw the triumph of science and how it was making religion and monarchy irrelevant.
    Also all his theories are DEEPLY rooted and INSPIRED FROM the works of KANT AND HEGEL , Is it Kant who proposed Thesis ., Antithesis , Synthesis.
    I think there are two aspects of Communism , THE ECONOMIC THEORY AND THE POLITICAL THEORY.
    The Economic theory TRANSFORMED the SERF country RUSSIA into a MODERN COUNTRY AND A SCIENTIFIC/MILITARY SUPERPOWER.

    The states where there wasn’t much allure of communism , THE COW BELT , TAMIL NADU , they are anything but a sophisticated society. These are societies of Ranbir Sena , Bahubali , Thakur et al . As for tamil nadu , in 70’s millions flocked to Bombay , and this is the spur for the rise of the cartoonist Bal Thackarey, and the notorious Vadarajan(Dayavan)
    I LIVE IT TO ASHISH TO ELUCIDATE THE REASONS FOR COMMUNISM’S HOLD ON THE BENGALEE PSYCHE.
    Post Script, Communism was FOR THE INTELLECTUALS OF EUROPE . The Cambrige FIVE who defected to USSR were NOT GANGA KINAREY WALA type , they were extreemely sharp mind like Anthony Burgess. The film director Louis Bunel , French Goddard , and Italian Fellini were all communist so was Pirondelo and Dario Fo

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) Even I haven’t read DAS CAPITAL. No theory is conjured out of thin air. Marx and Engels were no exceptions – they saw what was happening in the societies in which they lived and sought to offer solutions to end the misery of the majority of the population. That does not necessarily make it a perfect theory. My view is that Marxism was remedy worse than the disease.

    2) The Economy Theory

    True, Soviet Union became a super power under communist rule but at a tremendous human cost – shortages of food and essential commodities of everyday use.

    An acquaintance of mine, a vegetarian was sent by his company for a project to Moscow in 70s (60 years after the revolution). He survived on boiled potatoes and bread for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner for three months and this not uncommon. I also recall Soviets posted in India on projects buying up essential commodities in bulk for use back at home. Footwear was one the prized items.

    The question to ask where is Soviet Union today? USA became even bigger superpower and still very much around and it did not adopt Marx as their godfather.

    Even we embarked on modernisation from 1950s onwards. I do not know about others, but would be true too, as a child my chest would swell with pride when we were told or read about the Bhakra Nangal Dam (I had visited the site in 1955 when perhaps less 100 feet of dam wall had been raised – my uncle was one of the engineers working there then), the first fertilizer factory at Sindri, Rail locomotive unit at Varanasi, the Steel plant at Rourkela, etc. For that to happen, we were not deprived of our basic needs (true there certain shortages from time to time – thanks to licence permit raj). Our way may be was slow, but humane and I have been very comfortable with it. After 1992, most hurdles have been removed (that it has thrown up a different set of problems, but that is not the point).

    3) The Political Theory

    When you thrust a system on the people and in the same breadth declare there will be no other – it is doomed to be a failure. Our founding fathers (for that matter it is true for other liberal societies) did not exclude any form of ideology that could be practised in the country and could form governments if the people so desired. They left that decision to the people – that is why we have had and continue to do so governments with many shades of ideology. Over a period of time, we learn as we go along and then with that knowledge, we know which one is the better alternative. Our Constitution and the system that is in place makes it very difficult for any variant ideology to go berserk.

    True, we have had and are having problems with all the self-appointed senas and outfits (practically all of them money making rackets in the guise of a political/social organisation), but a theocratic system is not the solution.

    I do not reject any theory/ideology outright, we could always incorporate the good points (if there are any) to make life less miserable and more joyful.

    4) Post script – a theory/ideology for the intellectuals? Why go far, so many of our own intellectuals and persons you least expect have been ardent supporters of the Naxalism and other forms of extreme ideologies. Examples galore.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    would you believe me if I told you that when I first visited the Bay Area in 1988, outside of Indian restaurants, you could not get anything vegetarian? I had a fellow traveller who survived on bagels for breakfast, McDonalds for dinner (where they would condescend to remove, after having put it in, the beef patty, from the Cheese burger?) and Haagen Dazs in the office cafetaria for lunch? Oh, okay sometimes he made a salad- lettuce and broccoli..
    The life has become better for vegetarians only recently- I am a strong non-vegetarian but, I have seen the trouble these guys have gone to.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    I believe Manohar was talking about food shortage in the Soviet Union; not dietary preferences. I have heard about Rusians bulking stuff, buying “hawaii” chappels etc..
    BUt Manohar, wasn’t our Congress also trying to implement a state controlled system? Didnt Srimathi Gandhi work overtime on this?

    AshishC Reply:

    Gopi, yes, I agree. Was just pulling his leg; with some success, as his response above shows!!

    Anonymous Reply:

    OK, OK. I will limp for the next few hours. ;-)

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    When a system does not seem to deliver, one may make some radical (but not tectonic) shift in policy and method of deliverance. That is what she did, it too failed. Hence another shift in 1992, which seems to be the lesser of all the evils, probably the best, as of now.

    India’s basic problem has been the delivery systems – highly inefficient and corrupt, though there is some improvement (in some cases remarkable) on the efficiency front.

    Hawaii chappals were not the only items – all kinds of footwear, textiles, soaps, toothpastes, toothbrushes, you name it.
    Every Sunday in my town in those days was a Diwali for the shop-keepers – the Russians would come in droves and buy items in bulk, after watching the matinee of aHollywood film.
    I doubt we ever envied them, rather pitied them. How lucky they must have felt to be away from their own backyard – a stifling system.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar
    What if Pandit Nehru had adopted some of the proposals of Rajaji and Masani in the late 50s? My sense is that we would have been a $7-9 trillion dollar economy now, with better systems, better service delivery efficiency etc.. I am glad we were forced to do a do over in 1992, and we had a pragmatic , visionary leader Narsimha Rao at that time. God blesses us sometimes. What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? Or Sharad Pawar?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now you are going to keep me busy for the rest of the day on this blog. Very interesting questions and points, I will do my best to give my perspective on this as clearly as I can.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, I am aware of the fact that the vegetarians faced problems in many countries (perhaps they still do in some parts of the world).

    The point was paucity of choices. What was the use of great dams/power plants/industries and worse putting first man in space – when they deprived the population of very basic needs,unless you were the ruling/privileged class or had connections. Only potatoes! no other basic vegetarian item? why not Green peas for example? No wonder the mighty Soviet Union collapsed.

    We also spent a lot on space research, but not depriving our population – thou shalt only eat potatoes once week, rice twice a weak, ………. When there was real shortage, may be went “begging” and got lot of food under PL480 programme.

    Me, too strictly non-vegetarian, but love many vegetarian items/dishes. I would not go hungry in part of the world – unless there is a famine.

    AshishC Reply:

    Hey Manohar,
    your point was understood and no divergence of views there.
    What we do not often realise that theory and practice are often different. Communists took the concept of “dictatorship of the proletariat” to mean dictatorship of the oligrachs- in Russia, in China in Cuba and in North Korea.
    Again, human nature at play here- we all like to play God and absolute power can corrupt (not just in money terms), absolutely.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan, you must do some real anashan
    and fake rationalist that you are, go for a devi darshan
    then, may be, you will have hte answer to the prashan
    who am I?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The Americans’ view of Pakistan/Haqquani etc:

    Hardly any day has gone by during the last several weeks without a news anchor/pundit/congressman/senator mentioning about the duplicitous role of Pakistan. The testimony by Adm Mullen, the outgoing Joint Chief of Staff, and Leon Paneta, the new Secretary of Defense to the Senate Armed Services Committee was an eye-opener to many. Both Adm Mullen and Secretary Paneta put it in simple language – Pakistani sponsored groups are attacking US military personnel; they (US) have been working with the Pakistani army in the spirit of cooperation; but they (US) will have to take some tough actions against Pakistan, in Pakistani territory if they have to.

    The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have been providing wide coverage about the attacks done by Haqquani network – all the instances where they attacked and killed US military personnel. They also covered the Indian embassy attack in Kabul; and pointed that it was a joint ISI/Haqquani operation. Today’s NY Times provided a grim news about the Pakistani army men themselves killing an US Army Major (Major Larry Baugess) in 2007. Apparently the army higher ups and the defense dept higher ups (and President Bush) knew about it; that the attack was not by a lone disgruntled lower level Pakistani army guy, but by several Pakistani army personnel including senior army officers. This was hush-hushed in the “larger interest”. But it looks like this was not an isolated incident; and these types of activities plus the Haqquani activities finally made the US guys to declare a war of words. I am sure New York Times will unearth more Pakistani killings of US army personnel in the coming weeks. The testimony alluded to the loss of US lives through complicity. Any more revelation will most probably force Americans to come out on streets demanding an invasion!

    Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a senior member of the armed services committee came on TV interviews on Sunday, indicating that US will act if Haqquani brothers/sons are not prevented by Pakistan from further attacks on US army. To a question on whether US will attack Pakistan, he said all options including an attack are on the table.

    The news media is ratcheting this up every day; it was a question posed to the Republican party primary candidates’ debate last Thursday in Orlando.

    The universal opinion of every “opinion maker” who has been interviewed on TV news shows was that all actions including force should be expended if Pakistan does not come around.

    I believe US will attack if Pakistan does not go after dismantling the Haqquanis. The people here are for solving the Pakistani problem once and for all, even with a troubled economy..

    Not only that Obama will not be blamed for an attack, in fact he will be hailed as a hero for solving the tough Pakistani problem (along with killing Osama bin Laden who was hiding for 10 years)..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    USA will fail in any modifying Pak behaviour because its no match to Pak deceit. Here is what I would propose USA do at the minimum.

    1. Recall its ambassador
    2. Issue a severe advisory to its citizens to leave Pakistan and withdraw its employees from US consulates, except bare minimum.
    The above two steps will cause panic among Pakistanis , as they would be expecting the worst, an attack from USA.
    3. Meanwhile USA should indirectly encourage rumours that its planning to bomb militant support structures deep inside Pakistan.

    4. Suspend all ( military, economic ) direct aid to Pakistan.
    5. Block any loans from multilateral organizations liek IMF, WB
    6. Hold out the prospect of diplomatic and economic sanctions against the top army/isi officials.
    7. Reduce issuance of visas to Pakistanis to a trickle.

    Steps 4 and 5, would push Pakistan towards default in 1 year.
    The prospect of default will cause economic panis and dislocation in Paksitan. This would lead to civil unrest.
    This would lead to collapse of Pakistani rupee and severe inflation.

    While , USA , takes all this steps, it should not speak much and maintain no direct contacts with Pakistanis. It should talk to Pakistanis , through only 3rd party, and rebuff all PAkistani attempts to talk to USA to sort this out.

    Through 3rd parties, USA should demand arrest of Haqanni and Mullah Omar.
    USA should play the game of escalting demands and not rewarding Pakistan even when it meets some demands because in essense its dealing with a deceitful, thug entity who understands only stick.

    The above approach, that will cost US nothing, save it billions of dollars, has a much more likelihood of success than anything else.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv

    I think US will enforce some of these – I believe they are waiting for some internal logistics. The drumbeat is clear and loud; all point to pending action in multiple fronts

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In response to US demand to act tough on Haqqani group, pakistan has pleged to China that it will take touch action againsts Uighur militants active in pakistan and Pakistan has also stateted that China-Pak relationship is higher than himalayas, deeper than oceans and sweeter than honey.

    gayi bhains paani mein…I guess US has no option but to eliminate Haqqani brothers Osama way.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    3 Indians selected/honored by US Committee on Science and Technology:

    President Obama honoured 12 scientists/innovators for this year’s awards on Science and Technology. Of the 12, three were Indians – Dr Srinivas Iyengar Varadan, Dr Rakesh Agarwal, and Dr Jayant Baliga — Not bad at 25%!

    Congratulations to these smart scientists/engineers/mathematicians! Let us be proud of their achievements!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The “ keep me at arm’s length “ PM of India is rushing to meet his “keep me in your arms” boss. He has come back from US, after a neither here nor there speech in the UNGA , and is in urgent need of being comforted . The heat of 2G is now coming too close and the comfort and warmth which those arms can provide can never come from anywhere else .Those were the arms which pulled him from nowhere and changed his destiny . Something which he had never dreamt of. Now he sees a sinister plot and a hidden hand … probably foreign … behind all the exposures .The conspiracy is hatched by the Opposition, bureaucracy… even his own office , Judiciary …even the Supreme court of India. Anna Hazare …Baba Ramdev are all part of the conspiracy. But somehow he has to keep himself at arm’s length from all this …. But will he ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen

    I was disappointed when Dr MMS said” there is a campaign under way to destabilize polity”..
    But let us stick with him till election.. Who else from the current cabinet will you want as PM? We just cannot afford an election now – needs some semblance of stability with the way world finance, pakistani terrorism tc are going

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Ah, Gopi!
    We ARE stuck with him. I am expecting anyday a spoof on the Fevicol ad from Faking News.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi , Pranab Mukerjea shall be a better choice .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    great, Praveen Saxenaji; and also very perceptive.

    What comfort can the arms of mataji give him, when she herself is ill (is it real?)?

    Now, with so many “enemies of the state” going around baying for his “istifa”,
    only Gursharan Kaur can give him real comfort, but only after he resigns and retires.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Our PM has caught this habit from our western neighbours; blame US, blame India, blame Israel, blame Martians.. everyone is conspiring against you…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen,

    “” The “ keep me at arm’s length “ PM of India is rushing to meet his “keep me in your arms” boss “”

    Nice one .

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Balwinder, you have asked for a vote- ‘ WHO THINKS THAT HINDU TERRORISM is as dangerous or has killed as many ppl as LEFT WING TERRORISM, maoists, communists, naxalites. ‘
    If you ask Ehsan Jafri’s family you will get a different answer, his was murder most horrific. But barring the Gujrat riots which followed Godhra, and the recent Malegaon etc blasts- this vote is a damp squib- nowhere is saffron terror even a tenth as big as the other, which MMS said was a national emergency in several districts of India

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    and to further confuse matters, American investigators say the LET and Al Qaeda were responsible for the Samjhauta Express blast and the HUJI for the Mecca Masjid blast
    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266576
    will we ever know the truth ??

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Just read this, brilliant, haha-
    ‘ There is a certain cussedness in the Bengali psyche that I have never understood- which other place would you rename a street where the American Consulate is located as Ho Chi Minh Sarani? ‘

    Usman Chowdhry, if you are still reading this blog, hope you will tell your fellow Pakistanis about us- we bloggers and Indians are a mad lot

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sanjay,

    you said, “I try not to drink in front of my child and always tell him “ki yeh papa ka grape juice hai…”

    These days the school teachers tell their students that drinking fruit juices, particularly apple juice, grape juice etc. is good for the health. There is therefore the risk that your child takes a liking for “papa ka grape juice”. (More so if it is readily accessible).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    Ohh !! I take care that the grape juice is out of reach. And they too have frankly concluded at the age of 7 and 11 that this juice is rotten smelling and makes a person talk crazy… and gets a scolding from Mummy…

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shenoy Sahab;
    Hope, I will be back on the blog in two or three days. had been missing all the fun at the blog. Has Vijay again left for China or Dubai?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi, Manohar, Aashish,

    As usual very interesting discussion . Great read.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Thanks.

    I would like you to contribute to the discussions too, one can always learn more.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi, when you lose debate or vote u do not resort to name calling, challa sikh, crypto hindu etc. You knocked on my door 2months ago and sent 15 personal emails asking for my help in declaring u non pakistani. Have I dealt with u fairly after that ?
    But when u say
    1. 5000 dalit women get raped everyday
    2. Saffron terror is as lethal as communist / maoist terror
    then I open for discussion and vote. That is civilised debate. Abusing shoeb or myself is juvenile.
    Do not bring in Nazism or partition deaths to confuse

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, hum sikhon ki ek khaas baat hai, CHAHRDI KALA, vaary difficult to define. Buoyant spirit, optimistic, can do, humour. How I wish I could inject u with some.
    I am emotional today for Bhagat Singh was born today in 1907. There is lot of bullshit spewed on blog here by weak, divisive self haters. We need the spirit of shaheed Bhagat Singh more than ever today.
    Khalistan madness robbed us of our eminence but Manmohan put us back. I hope PRAVEEN ji that even when u criticise his current weakness that you remember him and PVN Rao for giving your children and grandkids lovely economy and jobs
    chahrdi kala

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    “Hum Sikhon ki”, who is hum.

    It is not so long ago you were calling me a Pkas1tan1, you even had your forensic email analyser say that I could have faked a BA email in order to convince you of a gross lie.

    Do I detect a change??? My My..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Baleinder

    What debate.

    You set the terms of debate on an IMGINARY precept, both times, and then ask people to vote.

    You are PATHETIC in C Minor

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I NOTICE YOU DID NOT REPLY TO THIS

    THAT IS BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT.

    Balwinder

    Where did I say that “left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism.”

    Please identify, where I made that statement.
    Edit Reply 14 hours ago in reply to Balwindersandhu 0 Like
    F .

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    You are quite right, I should not resort to name calling.

    All I should do is wait for people to call me, Fake Ravi, Paksh1tan1, Jihadi, ISI agent.

    Etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay,

    Where are you ? I hope everything is alright.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    What the famous Pakistani writer Sadat Hasan Manto warned in mid 50s, long long before the current problems – that the US will ally itself with the most undemocratic elements of Pakistani society, Generals and Islamist Mullahs, to protect its geopolitical interests has happened with disastrous results for Pakistan; with an endgame that can be even more catastrophic, as if they need another catastrophe.

    We blame Pakistanis (of those days and now) for not rising against their leaders (generals?) for “getting on high” with financial aid/weapons.

    If it was reversed, and if US instead put its weapons and money in India at that time, would the Indians have opposed if Nehru accepted these?

    With all the negatives being floated on Nehru these days, aren’t we better off now that he did not take any military and financial aid from USA during our nation’s infancy? Had he accepted that, we would have become a Paksitan, with incompetent generals, mullahs, parivars all in collusion against the common man.

    The leadership made all the difference. A Nehru had the foresight to reject the inducements and choose our own course (flawed it may be).

    Pakistan has been down the hill ever since.

    We waited, waited; and chose an opportune and right time, after the cold war, when economic globalization would create harmonious new alliances of elites of both countries.

    We should be thankful that Pandit Nehru did not want to help the United States assume the burden of defunct British empires in Asia and Africa.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb-

    While Nehru should be congratulated, I do not think the populace and other leaders would have allowed him to accept even if he wanted. We had giants at that time, Rajaji, Prasad, Pant, Maulana Azad etc (Patel had passed away by then), having spent decades in the struggle for independence, would not allow dependence again.

    The populace also would not have allowed; since the independence movement for most part was a people’s movement attracting all regions, all strata, all sex, all ages.

    My sense, not corroborated with any evidence, is that the Pakistani populace of that era did not have the concept of nationhood, independence from a foreign power etc. My sense is that at that time (may be even now) the populace was all “anti-India” and NOT FOR ANYTHING. I think the deep rooted feeling of independence from a foreign country was not there; and in its place, may be there was a sigh of “I do not have to live with ——–” . The lack of sense of belonging, the lack of the deep rooted attachment to a place obtained through fighting for independence etc must have caused the populace not to worry about whether it is generals, or is it the landed gentry etc inviting foreigners to exert their influence.

    John Foster Dulles obviously did not like India’s strategy; he even called it immoral. In turn, Nehru regarded the American as “dull, duller, and Dulles”!

    It is really interesting how things get shaped up if given a natural environment. A 2005 Pew Poll found US in the highest regard among Indians (71%) and nearly the lowest among Pakisatnis (23%)– it must be far lower than 23% now

    It will be great if some Pakstani readers can throw light into the first 20 years – the type of leadership (how many had spent time fighting for independence from British to have an “independence” connection as opposed to an Anti India (or anti-Hindu) orientation ), the driving emotional chord of the populace etc..during the formative years

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi since your emails to u I have not called u pakistani. When u were rude with shoeb yesterday, Mishraji rebuked u, u were flippant.
    Sorry, but these 2 I respect hugely. Shoeb has made excellent comment on Manto and Nehru today.
    I did include in my vote question that moist leftie commy caused as many deaths OR WAS AS DANGEROUS as safron terror. Most here hv emphatically and for months said no. Thou shalt not call them names

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    People who talk about partition riots should know, that Indians or as some criminal thugs like to refer Indians as ‘Hindus’ opposed partition. It was Pakistan Muslim league of Jinnah that fanned communal hatred to attain partition and should be the only party to be blamed for partition riot deaths. And when partition happened, while 15% of Muslims that lived in territory of India today , migrated or were killed in riots while 85% ( repeat 85% ) of Hindus and Sikhs that lived in W Pakistan were murdered or migrated. Thats the reason Hindus and Sikhs that made 22-25% of W Pakistan population are almost extinct there.
    It should be clear even to a lieful, Pakistani peddler ( dalit rapes ? ) where the blame must lie.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I was not apportioning blame to any one community or another.

    Except for saying that extremist religious ideology played a significant role in that tragedy.

    Our country was divided on Religious Lines.

    It personally affected my family and we lost our ancestral land and some members of my extended family.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am against obfuscating issues so as to promote a lie. The blame for communal riots that were seen during partition, should lay squarely on those who sought to divide India based on religious identity. The first mass-riots where 10,000 people were killed was when Jinnah called for “Day-of-direct-action” for Pakistan and exhorted his followers to direct-action , a code name for ‘violence’. It was Jinnah’s Muslim league that ruled Bengal at that time and unleashed a most hienous, pre-planned communal rioting. While Gandhi-Nehru tried there best to stop rioting, Jinnah basked in the blood of those killed, happy that Pakistan was now more likely.
    No wonder the hateful entity his ideology spawned , went on to kill or evict 95% of Hindus and Sikhs from W Pakistan over years.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    Our country was not divided on religious lines, until Jinnah started his monkey business, and the British stroked that argument.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Not sure if you were making a profound point or indulging in idol semantics.

    Before our country was not divided, one may argue neither was our society.

    However, whom so ever may have been responsible, the Country was divided, on religious lines. In so far as Muslim Majority Districts separated from Hindu Majority Districts.

  • Anonymous

    Gopi

    You wrote

    “Manohar
    What if Pandit Nehru had adopted some of the proposals of Rajaji and Masani in the late 50s? My sense is that we would have been a $7-9 trillion dollar economy now, with better systems, better service delivery efficiency etc.. I am glad we were forced to do a do over in 1992, and we had a pragmatic , visionary leader Narsimha Rao at that time. God blesses us sometimes. What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? Or Sharad Pawar”?

    This is my perspective.

    1) No policy or initiative is taken in isolation.

    2) The Marxist model as adopted by Soviet Union and Eastern Europe was not yet considered as a failure in the 50s, it was still work-in-progress. Nor was the capitalist model was declared a resounding success. So there was no clear cut historical evidence to pick a winning model of development.

    In such a scenario, what model India should have adopted? The problem was compounded by the fact we did not have enough funds.

    As Shoeb has pointed in an another thread that Pandit Nehru did not fall into the lap of the USA – we could have got a sort of a Marshal Plan (enough funds and many American companies setting plants and factories) with one too many strings attached. We could debate that whether he was right or wrong. In hindsight, we are always wiser and we can sit in judgment and praise or blast him. Shoeb has done the former from the political angle.

    India’s budget in 1951 totalled a mere Rs 193 crores (equivalent to Rs 29000 crores today) for a population of 36-40 crores.

    Why Nehru did not listen to Rajaji, Masani and others, and opted for the public sector model? Perhaps, the majority of the Congress leaders were in agreement with Nehru and not with Rajaji. The question of availability of funds (with the Government and in private hands) was big factor. Not enough. Whatever aid/loans we got then was mostly from the United Kingdom, I suppose, with lesser strings attached.

    To label Nehru a dictator and say he did not listen to others and took every decision by himself is being grossly unfair to him, never mind the fact his stature and respect allowed to have him his way on many matters – sometimes with disastrous results – his almost blind faith in the Chinese leadership.

    A little known forgotten fact about Nehru. On every Monday morning, if both he and the President (first Dr, Rajendra Prasad and then Dr. S Radhakrishnan) were in town, he would go to the Rashtrapati Bhavan without fail to brief and discuss with them the matters of state, otherwise on the first available convenient day after that. Mind you, both the Presidents were no rubber stamp types – they would let Nehru know their displeasure on any matter they disagreed with him on. Whether he took cognizance of their advice or not is another matter altogether. I do not know know, if this practice followed today or not ,if not, when did it stop. These days, if the PM meets the President, it is news.

    Development through public sector investments had its pluses and minuses – perhaps more minuses. Maybe you are right, we could have been 7 to 8 trillion economy today, if he had followed the capitalist matter, but I am not so sure. The question to ask – would the capitalist model have succeeded starting from the 50s? As I said there was no historical precedence to follow, hence no guarantee that it would have been so in a country like India. We will never know.

    Having seen for 40 odd years that the commanding heights of the public sector and licence permit raj was resulting in only 3.5% rate of growth – more famously known as the “Hindu Rate of Growth”, it is to credit of Narismha Rao and Dr. Manmohan Singh that they showed the courage to over turn the basic economic philosophy of the Congress Party and more or less of most other parties. The moot question is if there was someone else, would they have done the same – we can debate that forever. We were broke, we had to airlift lot of our gold reserves to London as guarantee for loans. Many of our self appointed nationalistic and patriotic parties went berserk, labeled it as an anti-national and unpatriotic act. They did not suggest any other way (they did not have any) , which was nationalistic and patriotic. Just noise for the sake of scoring brownie points.

    What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? I do not think this needs to be debated – as he was labeled as the Prime Minister of Karnataka,during his tenure.

    Sharad Pawar? I will post my comments later.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    I was using those numbers for GDP as something that would have happened (or not) had Nehru given some consideration to move away from his socialist moorings/state controls.
    Rajaji/Ranga/Masani were not asking for changing the model 100%, but to remove the license rajs, to open up sectors etc so Indian entrepreneurs could contribute to the growth of the country. They were not using any labels, but bringing up the fact that we should not substitute British with new Inspectors– that as you know is what precisely happened (and currently the root of all corruption here).
    Nehru had an unflinching and unchangeable belief in the state model; nobody could move him away from that – I do not know if the majority of the decision making board was for the Nehru model or not; it is quite possible, knowing how we Indians operate, that nobody wanted to oppose Nehru (don’t you think the allegiance to Sonia etc is a continuation of this — that we Indians do not like to confront).

    He was a firm believer in the constitution, committed to democratic principles and Democracy. The only negative from a democracy perspective may be his dismissal of the first EMS Namboodiripad communist ministry in Kerala in 1959. There are two views on this – one, that he did this because the State govt was trampling on minority rights especially as it dealt with educational institutions), and the second, that he just could not believe a state will elect somebody other than congress party. I tend to endorse the first.

    Also, the Rajaji issue had nothing to do with a Marshal Aid type scheme- the later Swatantras were not for foreign investment etc, but more for freeing up the individual to start business, to do business without undue interference etc

    The good thing is that we are now on the right track. Who would have thought that we will be relatively untouched by the European and US problems, and that we will move at a high speed of 7-9% growth?

    As we speak, the pundits are saying Greece will have to default; it is not a question of “if”, but “when” (even after Germany pumps in, the consensus is that it is a question of few months)..followed by Spain….and other dominoes.
    Double dip in US…

    We should be thankful to our stars!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    In 1948, the Government did set up Industrial Finance Corporation of India (IFCI) to give loans for private sector projects.

    One should bear in mind, there were not enough funds and resources – so much had to be spent on resettling the refugees and host of other problems of a new independent country – education, health, etc. I do not think any industrial house then was big enough and in a position to set-up large industrial units – fertilizer factories, steel plants, power plants, unless foreign companies (or via collaborations) were to allowed to come in and set-up large projects, but not without their share of profits, which would have gone out of the country.

    My feeling is that the Licence Permit system was a necessary evil at that point in time, to allocate limited resources and funds for priority sectors. That it became a tool for harassment and corruption is unfortunate. It should have been dismantled sooner that it actually was.

    The recession of the 30s in USA was too recent to be ignored too, when weighing the options.

    I do not share your view that Nehru was so adamant that he would not have heeded the collective wisdom of his colleagues – they were giants themselves. Perhaps they shared his ideas. Not many went with Rajaji and Masani to
    form the Swatantra Party. It would have been great if it (occupying the right of the centre space *) was in existence today with a large number of MPs or running the Government. .

    If one were to calculate the time spent in the parliament during one’s tenure on percentage basis – he would be on top of the list by miles. If he was very rigid, he would not have given importance to the views of the elected representatives.

    * – the space which the BJP is supposed to occupy, but is refusing to do so for reason best known to them.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ———————————————————————————————-
    To understand Pakistan and Jinnah, read this.
    By Time/LIFE Reporter , Margaret-Bourke-White ,who covered the first mass riots of India , before partition, instigated by Jinnah.

    Warning : Tears may roll down your cheek as you read this independent account of the savagery unleashed by Jinnah. There were vultures feeding on the dead bodies
    of the people killed in Calcutta but this was just the 1st chapter of Jinnah’s plans to have India divided or destroyed.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    http://iref.homestead.com/DirectAction.html
    Direct Action in Calcutta

    Excerpted from Margaret Bourke-White’s book, Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In 1946 she was in India. The following is her account of the Direct Action Day launched by the Muslim League in Calcutta on August 16 of that year. Tens of thousands died from communal riots that started in Calcutta and then spread to other places all over India. This was a prelude to the carnage of partition that followed a year later.

    Why had the fearful Great Migration come to pass? Why were millions of people wrenched from their ancestral homes and driven toward an unknown, often unwanted “Promised Land”? For years Hindus and Muslims had struggled side by side for independence from British rule. With freedom finally on the horizon why should India begin to tear herself in two along religious lines?

    The overt act that split India began in the streets of Calcutta. But the decision was made in Bombay. It was a one-man decision, and the man who made it was cool, calculating, unreligious. This determination to establish a separate Islamic state came not — one might have expected — from some Muslim divine in archaic robes and flowing beard, but from a thoroughly Westernized, English-educated attorney-at-law with a clean-shaven face and razor-sharp mind. Mahomed Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League and the architect of Pakistan, had for many years worked at the side of Nehru and Gandhi for a free, united India, until in the evening of his life he broke with his past to achieve a separate Pakistan.

    Jinnah lived to see himself ruler of the world’s largest Islamic nation before he died in September, 1948, at the age of seventy-two, but I think of him as reaching his pinnacle of power two years before his death, when freedom-with-unity appeared on the verge of becoming a reality and he took the momentous steps that crushed all hopes for a united India.

    Jinnah’s press conference at his Bombay home on fashionable Malabar Hill, in late July, 1946, marked the public turning point. It was so unusual for the Quaid-i-Azam, or “Great Leader,” to call a press conference that both foreign and Indian reporters rushed eagerly to attend it. Nor were they disappointed. On that mid-summer morning, Jinnah intimated — rather boldly — the coming of Direct Action Day. Two and one half weeks later this day touched off a chain of events that led, after twelve explosive months, to a divided India and the violent disruptions of the Great Migration.

    Until then most of us had thought the differences between the Congress Party and the Muslim League would somehow be resolved and that freedom would bring a united nation. Jinnah’s arguments for division were all familiar: that the Muslims in India were outnumbered three to one by Hindus and would be crushed under Hindu domination; that Hindus worshiped the cow while Muslims ate the cow; that religion, customs, culture all made Muslims different from Hindus. Opponents of the two-nation theory maintained that Hindus and Muslims could not be so different, since there was no racial difference. Ninety-five per cent of India’s Muslims were just converted Hindus. Even Mr. Jinnah, they were fond of pointing out, had a Hindu grandfather.

    For my part, I believe that the tragic weakness of the Indian leaders during this crucial period was their failure to take a firm stand against the forces of Indian feudalism. A spellbinder with slogans found it all too easy to galvanize the pent-up suffering of centuries into one powerful current of religious hatred. That this was done by an ambitious lawyer in Western dress and of unorthodox habits makes it all the clearer that religion was used like a document plucked from a briefcase.

    There was a good deal of the successful lawyer about Jinnah that midsummer morning of the press conference, as he stood on the steps of his spacious veranda receiving the reporters. A pencil-thin monochrome in gray and silver, with perfectly tailored suit and tie and socks precisely matching his hair, his manner with us was courteous but formal. As he fitted his monocle to his eye and began to speak, there was something consciously theatrical about Mr. Jinnah — throwback perhaps to that most un-Islamic chapter of his past when he was a Shakespearean actor in England.

    His statement to the press was in the form of a monologue, delivered in an icy voice, which was forecast of fiery events to come. “We are preparing to launch a struggle. We have chalked a plan.” We reporters, although we sat around Jinnah in a closed circle, had almost to stop our breathing to hear his curiously hushed words. He had decided to boycott the Constituent Assembly. He was rejecting in its entirety the British plan for transfer of power to an interim government which would combine both the League and the Congress. He lashed out against the “Hindu-dominated Congress” in his flat, chilled monotone. It seemed clear, now the bondage to the British was drawing to an end, that he was free to concentrate all his fire against the opposite party.

    “We are forced in our own self-protection to abandon constitutional methods.” His thin lips slit into a frigid smile. “The decision we have taken is a very grave one.” If the Muslims were not granted their separate Pakistan they would launch “direct action.” The phrase caught all of us. What form would direct action take, we all wanted to know. “Go to the Congress and ask them their plans,” Mr. Jinnah snapped. “When they take you into their confidence I will take you into mine.”

    There was silence for a moment, broken only by the cooing of pigeons, hopping over Jinnah’s manicured lawn. Then he added in the same toneless voice, so strangely unmatched to his words: “Why do you expect me alone to sit with folded hands? I also am going to make trouble.”

    Next day the Quaid-i-Azam changed out of his double-breasted suit and put on Muslim dress and fez for the Muslim masses. Standing on a platform liberally decorated with enlargements of his portrait, he announced that the sixteenth of August, two and a half weeks hence, would be “Direct Action Day.” His vituperation against the Congress was acidly explicit. “If you want peace, we do not want war,” he declared. “If you want war we accept your offer unhesitatingly. We will either have a divided India or a destroyed India.” And the Muslim Leaguers jumped up on their seats and tossed their fezzes in the air.

    It was a battle between top-flight politicians now. The papers blazed with accusations from both sides — League and Congress equally intolerant in their attacks. The opposing streams of fiery words had a terrible effect on the emotional Indian people. Passions mounted during the crucial fortnight; Direct Action Day dawned in an atmosphere of dread and foreboding.

    Most of what I learned about that day came from a little tea-shop keeper in Calcutta, where the explosion began. As soon as I heard of the incredible events taking place, I had flown from Bombay to Calcutta. The disruption of normal city life was so great that it was some time before I could make my way to the ruined heart of the bazaar district. Hunting for a survivor who had been an eyewitness to the first stroke of direct action, I found Nanda Lal, in the wreckage of his teashop. ……..

    On the morning of August 16th, Nanda Lal started his oven and set out his tray of sweetmeats as usual. When his little son came out with the jars of mango pickle and chutney, he commented to the child that the streets looked reassuringly quiet. The sacred cows that roam freely through the thoroughfares of Calcutta were sleeping as usual in the middle of the car tracks, and rose to their feet reluctantly, as they always did, when the first streetcar of the day clanged down Harrison Road.

    It was the sight of that first tram that confirmed Nanda Lal’s fears that this day was to be unlike all other days. Normally it was so crowded with commuters that they bulged from the platform and clung to the doorsteps and back of the car. Today there was hardly a passenger on board.

    Then things began happening so quickly that Nanda Lal could hardly recall them in sequence. But he did remember quite clearly the seven lorries that came thundering down Harrison Road. Men armed with brickbats and bottles began leaping out of the lorries — Muslim “goondas,” or gangsters, Nanda Lal decided, since they immediately fell to tearing up Hindu shops. Some rushed into the furniture store next to the Happy Home and began tossing mattresses and furniture into the street. Others ran toward the Bengal Cabin, but Nanda Lal was fastening up the blinds by now, shouting to his son to run back into the house, straining to bar the windows and close the door. …….

    During the terrible days that followed, Nanda Lal huddled with his family and relatives in the upper hallway. Sometimes bricks and stones crashed through the windows of the outside rooms. The children cried a great deal; they were hungry as well as terrified. …….

    On the fourth day Nanda Lal noted that the weapons in the street fighting had grown heavier. Soda-water bottles had given way to iron staves, and unfortunately the neighborhood had a plentiful supply of rails from the fence surrounding the near-by Shraddhananda Park. Finally, as the skirmish of the iron pikes reached its fiercest, a convoy of three military tanks rolled through and machine-gunned the mobs, and along with them the police made their belated appearance. ……

    When peace returned to Calcutta on the fifth day, the streets were a rubble of broken bricks and bottles, bloated remains of cows, and charred wrecks of automobiles and victorias rising above the strewn figures of the dead. The human toll had reached six thousand according to official count, and sixteen thousand according to unofficial sources. In this great city, as large as Detroit, vast areas were dark with ruin and black with the wings of vultures that hovered impartially over the Hindu and Muslim dead.

    Thousands began fleeing Calcutta. For days the bridge over the Hooghly River, one of the longest steel spans in the world, was a one-way current of men, women, children, and domestic animals, headed toward the Howrah railroad station. ……

    But fast as the refugees fled, they could not keep ahead of the swiftly spreading tide of disaster. Calcutta was only the beginning of a chain reaction of riot, counter-riot, and reprisal which stormed through India for an entire year.

    The next link in the chain was the Noakhali area in southeastern Bengal. Here in the uncharted recesses of swampy lowlands and hyacinth-choked bayous I talked with Hindus who had abandoned their villages en masse and fled to the riverbanks. They had strange tales to tell of forced conversion to Islam, of being compelled to throw the images of their gods into the water and to eat the meat of the sacred cow. ……

    Gandhi — though he was far too old to endure such hardship — went to Noakhali and tramped on foot through marshes and jungle trying to restore confidence to the villagers. Trade-unions and peasant organizations threw their weight toward unity. It is significant that throughout the worst of the disruption in Bengal, five million Hindu and Muslim sharecroppers campaigned together in the Tebhaga movement for long-overdue land reforms. Wherever there was constructive leadership toward some goal of social betterment, religious strife dwindled to the vanishing point.

    But between these small islands of Hindu-Muslim cooperation were the burning villages, the blazing fanaticisms. The sparks of Bengal flew westward to the state of Bihar, where Hindus wreaked merciless vengeance on the Muslim minority. The flames of Bihar fanned out to the Punjab and touched off explosions that dwarfed even the Calcutta riots.

    Months of violence sharpened the divisions, highlighted Jinnah’s arguments, achieved partition. On August 15,1947, exactly one day less than a year after Nanda Lal had seen direct action break out on his doorstep, a bleeding Pakistan was carved out of the body of a bleeding India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    rajiv

    Thanks– Cannot believe he said “a divided India or a DESTROYED India”..
    Dont you think the division would have happened anyway if not then, may be later?
    Looking back and analyzing, I think the whole partition could have been done with lesser bloodshed with a better planning/more time allocated than this Britisher drawing a line in the sand.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    Jinnah was a cold blooded murderer and criminal. There has been an effort to re-write history on Jinnah. The main stream secular and communist parties, in an effort to not offend Muslims ( who they insultingly presume to have soft corner for Jinnah ) , have sought to not dwell on Jinnah’s brute criminality. The right wing parties like BJP and some of its leaders ( like Jaswant ) , in there zeal to show Nehru, Gandhi as also responsible for partition and sling some mud on congress, have sought to re-interpret Jinnah.
    Jinnah’s cold blooded calculation to perpetrate communal frenzy makes him a perfect candidfate to be dug out from his grave in Karachi and hanged.
    I hope you have read the full account of Jinnah’s pronouncements when he called for day of direct action, as described by Margaret Bourke, the reporter who was present at that place and time.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Are we talking about the same Jinnah that LK Advani praised.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course apologists for the qatl-e-azam jinnah, now depend on Advani/Jaswant for Jinnah’s character certificate. Advani/Jaswant in their zeal to sling mud at Congress and blame it for partition have argued that they contributed to Jinnah to demand Pakistan. However both of them in their books agree that Jinnah instigated communal frenzy to achive his demands and then once Pakistan was achived, like a ’saw chooway kha kay, billi haaj no chaley ” ( after eating 100 mouses, the cat has now set out on pilgrimage ) he now wanted it to be a non-theocrtatic state.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    I have come accross similar articles earlier in my life but some how I had
    always managed to avoid reading those as I had stories of similar
    kinds from the people I know personally. But today sitting in my office
    alone I could not not resist my self from reading. This article has given
    me goose bumps. Would have liked to add more but cannot do at the moment.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish

    You wrote
    “Manohar,
    a side discussion or maybe not…
    I have always been amazed about the Shiv Sena- have never lived in Mumbai- but used to be a frequent visitor in the nineties.
    How do thugs like them gain even partial respectability? How is it that Bal Thakeray and his family do not ever get hauled up in court?
    No hurry; whenever you get some time; a considered response will be appreciated”.

    Shiv Sena, once it was formed sometime in the late sixties, was used by Indira Gandhi to neutralise the communist-controlled trade unions in Bombay, (especially in the textile mills). Once the (mis)deed had been achieved, he turned against the Congress (a la Bhinderanwale) – seeing himself as the uncrowned king of Bombay and a sure way to riches, by intimidation, threats and violence, yet the Congress looked the other way all these years (perhaps for the past services rendered) until Feb 2010 (see below). Of course, whenever he was about to go overboard on issues, a quiet phone call from the Home Minister, that he would be behind bars if went ahead, would do the trick. He was not prepared to stand his ground for the issue he claimed to be fighting for.

    Two incidents.
    1) I was told and there were rumours at that time, that during Sikh militancy in Punjab, when approached, he had demanded money (amount varies- but was no chicken feed) and was paid to leave the Sikh population in Maharashtra alone by his goons.

    2) During the 1992-93 riots, after the demolition of the Babri Masjid, when citizens went to the Chief Minister (Sudhakar Naik – a disgrace) for protection, he simply told them to approach Bal Thakre, saying he was helpless.

    Many cases were registered against Bal Thakre for the (2) above.

    When the only SS-BJP government was formed in 1995 in Maharashtra (that is when the remote control terminology came into the political discourse), a small time SS worker wrote a letter requesting the Government to drop all charges against him. Gopinath Munde, the then DCM and HM, promptly accepted the plea and the State Government withdrew all the cases against him.

    Partial respectability? It is demanded by threats and intimidation, and not commanded. He has his followers and worshipers though.

    When the SS and its breakaway MNS started targeting the North Indians, questions were raised in UP and Bihar to the Congress. After the visit of Rahul Gandhi in February 2010 made famous by that ride in the local train, outwitting the SS, they have been told to behave or else. Next their bravado of opposing ‘My Name Is Khan’ release met with humiliation – the film was released and they could do nothing about it. At that time, Manohar Joshi had infamously had remarked on TV “jab Shiv Sena maafi mangti hai, to Shah Rukh Khan ko pataa honaa chaahiye ki maafi mangni hi paDe gi”. Poor Joshi, he had nowhere to hide after the release of the film.

    In the 2005, the SS-BJP had been fined Rs 20 lac fine each by the High Court, for calling a bandh, after the Ghatkopar blast. When they went in appeal to the Supreme Court – they were told – first pay the fine and then come to us. They had to pay.

    There is also a law in Maharashtra. Any political party or anybody damaging public or private property in course of protest (legitimate or not) has to pay for the damages. They have been fined several times and have been made to pay. It hurts the most where it matters – the pocket. The court has never granted any relief.

    That is why now you do not see too many (hardly any) acts of vandalism and violence by their goons.

    This is my reading of the situation of what follows (I may be wrong). After Uddhav Thakre became the Executive President, he tried to steer the party from its violent ways, to gain wider acceptance and respectability among the larger sections of the people. After the results of 2009 general and 2010 assembly elections – they reverted back to their old ways, but the fines and clear directive from Delhi have kept them caged. Now they make only noises for sound-bytes on TV.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Much in debt sir!
    Shall download and save.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mr Ravi

    You should join the RSS to purify your soul Can’t you see that Jinnah talked of hatred and division. The RSS talked about Akhand Bharat.

    Mulsim League had no love and place for minorites in its dreamworld. RSS at least has a minorites cell and can be asked to give more reprsentation to minorites.

    Pakistan has only produced a thousand suicde bombers..

    Rss produced none.

    So see the difference for once and stop cribbing ever after…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal.

    Life must be hunky dory being fed on a daily diet of propoganda from Nagpur.

    Do you recieve it via RSS

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ ravi

    No we are actually talking about a different Jinnah who is a waiter in a topless bar in Mingora, Swat valley….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Hehe, dont ever leave the blog. We need these brilliant one liners

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Did you tip him when you were there, Mr Mittal

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dont know why the comment sailed up here… it was meant to be a reaction to Ravi, who was reacting to Rajiiv’s posting…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Because it was full of hot air

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar-
    Lets come back to the current times from Nehru’s days, and to the subject of this blog.

    I believe there are cataclysmic forces pulling Pakistan apart; and US will impinge hard-felt pain sooner than later. The rhetoric is ratcheted up; Pakistan is talking about sacrifices, US congress members are talking about teaching a lesson etc etc. Fortunately (for them) this threat is uniting all the diverse elements for the time being. The real issue for us is how will a US attack/or a crazy action by Pakistanis in anticipation of an attack, impact our growth; now since we have a good platform and the PM has assured that our growth this year will be attractive in the 8% range.

    Will refugees flock through the western border? Can we block? Or build a temporary holding place? Will terrorists seep through under the pretext of refugees?

    Will the lunatics use dirty bomb at us (assuming the terrorists already possess dirty bombs)? Or, worse, will the official Pakistan (a mad general or generals) trigger a bomb attack against India? (India being a friend of US now). Will it end up as a Pak/China – India/US game?

    With attention diluted on to various transactional issues such as G2, do you think our ministers are spending any time on the what ifs now since the possibility of a US action is very high? Come to think of it, will they be discussing and proactively planning for any contingencies even if they (the current UPA or any future ministry in its place) are not distracted by G2s

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    All that USA needs to do is to stop financing Pakistan through direct aid, rescheduling of loans, loan write-offs , IMF, WB.
    The rest will automatically follow. Either Pakistan will wake-up and reform or it will sink further into a weakened, failed state, that will find it difficult to hold together. A weakened and possibly broken up Pakistan is good for world peace. A strong Pakistan, given the criminal and deceitful nature of Pak state, will always promote every vice and violence. Thats just the character of the state based on Jinah’s vile and criminality. An independent Baluchistan will be a good starting point.
    However I think , USA has not yet grasped the incorrigibly vile, criminal and fraudulent nature of the Pak state and will continue to engage it and continue to be defrauded. When a new administraion comes to power likely in 2014, the cycle of fraud and deceit will get a new life under another foolish administration.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv
    My fear is that US will attack — the alternatives you suggested will not create an issue on our border. However, a military attack will impact us, either through refugee flow, or thru terrorism aimed at us.

    From what read, it looks like that US has finally understood the duplicitous character of Pakistan. I do not think they will give free lunch anymore.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Gopi,
    I have learnt not to underestimate Pak deceit and USA foolishness. Pak deceit in its conduct with USA is not anything new. It has been going on for ever. They just do not understand Pakistan and think that the state can be amenable to reason, inspite of all the evidense to the contrary.
    Regarding a 1971 type situation where Pakistan refugees in millions flock to India, I do not foresee that. That would happen only in a Pakistani civil war . I do not foresee that because in Pakistan there is no group that can match the murderous abilities of its army, so civil war not likely unless the military splits. Which will not happen.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Very well put forth.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I am probably going against the majority view that Pakistan would launch a nuclear attack on India (a proxy target), if it is “pushed” beyond a certain point – that is the feeling I get.

    1) After 1945 (Hiroshima- Nagasaki), there has been no repeat. If the world was big bomb-trigger happy, we probably would have had a few more cases. The disasters at the nuclear power plants have made the world to be extra careful.

    Mad generals in Pakistan or anywhere else perhaps know if they throw a bomb, they would receive one or more in return. In case of Pakistan and North Korea – I believe their “masters” (US and China) must have made sure that the trigger is not pulled, never mind the rhetoric and “threats”. For example, in case of North Korea, a retaliatory attack would not only affect North Korea, but China, South Korea and the Eastern Russia (and surely they do not want have a catastrophe on their own hands – radiation does not respect borders). Similar, the effects of nuclear war on the sub-continent would be felt beyond the region. We do not know as to who has the authority in Pakistan to unlock the trigger. Is it the President, the Prime Minister or the Army Chief? Perhaps the USA has made sure that the chain of command is in place and it cannot be a decision of one man who can go berserk.

    Dirty bombs(!) in the hands of terrorists. An atomic bomb does not come cheap and cannot be bought off the shelf. Would they have enormous funds at their command to acquire even one? If they have one, where is it stored with all the precautions in place – just cannot keep it in a backyard pit. What about the security around to protect it from other nefarious gangs? Then there is a question of experts to assemble it for delivery and the most important the delivery system. Catapult anyone!

    2) People trickling across the border

    If the USA decides to settle matters it would target a specific area and not the whole country, so where is the question of refugees trickling across. Plus of most our western border is fenced and patrolled.

    If there is danger of Pakistan breaking up on account of its own problems and contradictions, there could be a problem (see below).

    3) I am sure we (and all the countries) have contingency plans in place, based on simulated war games, doomsday scenarios, etc. For obvious reasons, they cannot be made public.

    If a situation arises, I am confident we will all forget about 2G,etc. and the cat-fights and will face it unitedly.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Jean Genie Jinnah

    All

    Attempt has been made to reheat the soufflé called Mohd Ali Jinnah, and as is always the case the re-heated dish is less than palatable.

    I am not well acquainted with the character of Mohd Ali Jinnah, but I can recognise when an attempt is being made to assassinate it.

    Needless for me to re-iterate, that I am no fan of any of the BJP dignitaries, but even I acknowledge that neither LK Advani nor Jaswant Singh are any one’s fools. Both are seasoned politicians, educated and wise enough to know which side of their bread is buttered.

    Despite that, a few years ago both spoke and wrote effectively to rehabilitate Jinnah’s reputation in India.

    This raises some questions:

    1. Why TWO very senior BJP leaders felt that there was an overwhelming need to say image-reforming things about Jinnah.

    2. Was there an attempt being made to ingratiate the BJP with the Indian Muslim Community, with a view to denting Congress’s vote-bank.

    3. Was one witnessing two seasoned politicians overcome with pangs of guilt. The consequential itch could only be scratched by writing reversionary books, which have put some considerable gap between with words villain and Jinnah.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Ravi,
    May I make a couple of quick points?
    1. Jaswant had a book to sell; like Shoaib Akhtar now. So, he made a few points in the book that became, what India TV calls “sansani”.
    2. Advani was a guest in a country which reveres Jinnah as the father of nation; like we do Mahatma Gandhi. Let us think of Nawaz Sharif visiting Rajghat; let’s say he wrote something like “Mahatma Gandhi was an inspiration to everyone in the world”- would it matter?
    Bonus point:
    Jinnah may have been “secular” or “Irreligious” in this personal
    life. But, he bears full responiliby for the 1946 bloodshed- criminar; not jist moral.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    In general I would agree with you, BUT with some reservations.

    1. Within the broad Hindu Right Church, if there is one thing that is taboo, then praising Jinnah would be it. If one believes that, it is difficult then to accept that for a paltry gain of Book Sales, Jaswant Singh would praise Jinnah.

    2. I only partially accept your explanation about Advani’s misadventure. If that was true, he would have cleared it with his RSS minders and that would have limited their reaction. I believe that Advani is a troubled man. Under his hard right wing exterior beats a bleeding heart transplanted from a JNU type pseudo secular.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Ravi,
    I believe that Advani is a troubled man. Under his hard right wing exterior beats a bleeding heart transplanted from a JNU type pseudo secular.
    Ah, now, so you damn a man by faint praise :)

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I am not a fan of Mr Advani, ever since the controversy during the 1960s, when his election posters were 4 colour, while every one else from every party still had blue ink over white paper.

    The suspicion, well more than a suspicion, was that to break India’s involvemen in NAM, a right wing candidate was needed. So US via CIA funded his election campaign.

    But then that was 40 years ago.

    engrich Reply:

    ashish bloodbath of 1946 was planned and excuted by hindu zoinist.
    first hindu muslim riot happened in india in 1880 after brhmnst started siding with britishers.
    jinnah had no organization like rss.congress could give 2 seats to candidates of muslim league to avoid partition.
    but they are provocating muskims to ask for division which ultimately they ask and they agreed.
    full responsibilty of partition lies on hindu fascist,not on jinnah.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Fantastic friends, what lovely points put out.
    RAJIIV, JINNAH””””””””’
    Let me confuse you rajiv-
    1. Around 1910-1915, Jinnah was considered an ambassador of hindu muslim unity !!!!!!!!
    2. His marriage to Ruttie in 1918 was explosive then- she was Parsi
    3. He was a a very astute politician. A little known fact was his meeting Tara Singh and others where he asked the sikhs to join Pakistan. They said they had conditions. He signed a blank piece of paper and gave it to them- ‘I accept ALL your demands’. wow
    4. From 1945 he worked very hard trying to convince the rich Sindhi and other hindu business community of Karachi to stay on. He pleaded. Not out of emotion, but he knew the enormous wealth and wealth creating potential they represented .
    5. The role of Allama Iqbal has not been mentioned here. The man who wrote ’saarey jahaan se accha’ became the ideological father of the idea of Pakistan, AND JINNAH WAS ONLY THE MEANS TO ACHIEVE THIS

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    It was Iqbal and not Jinnah who first postulated TNT two nation theory !!

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    RAJIIIV , JINNAH ””””””””””

    1. When Advani and Jaswant Singh, and many others in Pak say Jinnah is secular, it is because of THAT SPEECH in 1947-
    ‘ You are free to go to your temples, mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. ‘

    A great speech in isolation, but by then the monster of Direct action day had been released.
    And actually this speech and Jinnah’s legacy was dead as early as 1949 when the Obejctievs resolution was passed- Pakistan constituion would be based on Islam and the Quran.
    RIP SECULARISM

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Initially Pakistan which was created for muslims, with this it was stated that it was CREATED FOR ISLAM
    semantics- no- it is the basis of the boiling religious hatred today ….

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    TNT- TWO NATION THEORY”””””””””

    The complete hijacking of the education system in Pakistan was achieved by introducing Pakistan Studies, a mandatory subject for ALL students – it is Islamic brainwashing at an extreme. The TNT is taught as if it is the holy grail- not surprising therefore that Shahrukh Khan keeping both Geeta and Quran in the same room is percieved as harraam.
    witness how this stupid but very charismatic and dangerous demagogue aid Hamid slugs it out with Marvi Sirmed on TNT- he insults her by saying- you are a bindi wearing ‘hindu’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLMgRK0NVNY

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All
    Muhd Ali Jinnah was the greatest MFer who started the double dealing/backstabbing of Pakiiss.

    This is from today’s Wall Street Journal 9/28/11 front page with photo) ..

    Joint chief of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen has long been seen as Pakistan’s closest friend in Washington.

    He visited Islamabad 27 times since 2008 in his role as America’s top uniformed officer, cultivated a bond with the Pakistani army chief of staff and early in his tenure said he believed Pakistan was serious about plans to take on militant groups that the US wanted to shut down.

    But in recent months, Adm Mullen said in an interview with the WSJ, he concluded that the partnership approach he long had championed had fallen short and would be difficult to revive ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..Explaining his switch in the interview, Adm Mullen, like many other US officials, said the Americans are now going to have to take a tougher line in demanding Pakistan rein in militant groups.

    “I am losing people, and I am just not going to stand for that” he said, “I have been Pakistan’s best friend. What does it say when I am at that point? What does it say about where we are?”………..

    “it is very clear they (Pak army) have supported them (Haqquani) ” Adm Mullen said. “I dont think the Haqquanis can be turned on and off like a light switch. But there are steps that could be taken to impact Haqquanis over time” ..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope US bombs the sh— of these guys so these double dealings will end

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    SHOEB AND MIRZA””””””
    One of you best posts ever.
    You mentioned Saadat Hassan Manto. I read his brilliantly acerbic tale of a mental asylum bang on the border at the time of partition-Toba Tek Singh. When the ‘lunatics’ are asked to choose between India and Pak they refuse to do so and Toba Tek Singh, in a brilliant last scene puts his legs on either side of the border and refuses to move.

    A must read. Very funny, and incisive. To the inmates, the ‘normal’ people on the outside indulging in bloodshed seem to be the real lunatics.

    Pakistanis like Manto, Faiz Ahmed and Manzur Qadir could think on both sides of the border. Manzur became the Foreign Minister of Pakistan and his honesty and integrity were legendary. As Khushwant Singh used to say, whenever they were in a moral quandary, they used to ask, ‘ How would Qadir saheb have acted here’

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    It is rare to have someone in Pakistan now who can think on both sides of the border. That is their tragedy. Our own Indian awaam has gone trans national, they think across the US and European borders even !

    Except people like Hassan Nissar. We do NOT have a journaloist like him in India today- hamaarey to bik gaye !
    I have watched this video a thousand times- Muslims vs west- clash of civilisation ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4GJuKMrak

    I love it when he says- It is a clash of faith. Civilisation to unki hain, hamaarey paas kya khaak civilisation hai
    BRILLIANT, ABSOLUTELY BLOODY BRILLIANT

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    another story: Khol Do: was so very touching. I must have read not less than 5to eight of his short stories. One of the best writer, on human life.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    I had better stop. Comments, bouquets and brickbats welcome.
    Before I go-
    1. Balwinder praa, you had me in stitches- ‘ thou shalt not abuse ‘ haha. A Shakespearean nihang, now I have seen it all
    2. Gopi said ‘ Our country was not divided on religious lines, until Jinnah started …’
    and I pounced on that.
    Wrong Sir, and may I say it is rare of you to make a mistake, I am itching to reply but I have gallons to say- so for tomorrow
    Good night folks. Rajiiv, Shoeb, MANOhar, Mirza, Gopi, Balwinder and others- many thanks for education and entertainment

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    could not resist, one of my favourite articles- A COLLECTOR’S ITEM- a report in Times magazine from 1946 on Jinnah
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792780-6,00.html

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thank you Mishraji;
    Wonderful article. I believe, when Pakis made a film on Jinnah, they used Christopher Lee. Ha.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mishra,
    Jinnah’s personal faith, secular or non-secular, is immaterial. Neither is his demand for a seperate state for Muslims of the sub-continent , in itself diabolic, irrespective of the merits of that demand.
    Everyone knows that Jinnah was not a practicing Muslim. So assuming he was secular in his personal life ( that did not prevent the duplicitous thug from disowning his own daughter for marrying a parsee, while he himself married one ) , that howver does not absolve him of monumental political crimes.

    However, what reduces Jinnah to one of the greatest criminals and mass-murderers of history is his cynical use of religion to forment communal violence and frenzy, so as to attain Pakistan. Please re-read the account by the Life reporter Margaret on the press-conference where Jinnah declared the day of direct action.

    The years preceding partiition, particularly 1945-47 were used by Jinnah to instigate communal frenzy in a cold blooded manner and as the Times reporter wrote about Jinnah
    “A spellbinder with slogans found it all too easy to galvanize the pent-up suffering of centuries into one powerful current of religious hatred. That this was done by an ambitious lawyer in Western dress and of unorthodox habits makes it all the clearer that religion was used like a document plucked from a briefcase.”

    He was easily the vilest of men. Now that does not preclude that he may have been a different politician in 1930-ties.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv

    Jinnah is in the dustbin of history/civilization – even if he was the greatest thing since sliced bread.. His creation is on the bottom-most of countries (may be
    a notch above the other Islamic no-man’s land Somalia, may be not)…

    It is quite ironic when Pakistanis celebrate him with all these funny Arabic/Urdu titles –like Quad or Lion or some sh— like that

    We should not spend any time on him.. Other than not letting another Muslim divide the country again…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mean while an ex American national security advisor had this to say about Pakistanis ..
    “As former national security adviser Richard Clark to Bill Clinton pointed out on Real Time with Bill Maher a few weeks ago, the Pakistanis don’t even know themselves when they are lying or telling the truth anymore…they are such congenital liars. So we in the United States need to treat them just like you’d treat someone admitted to a mental hospital — patience and a lot of medication.”

    However, My favourite description of Pakistanis comes from Taleban Afghan ambassador to Pakistan who called them worse than two mouthed snakes.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Arsenal won two goals to one . My comments will be on TWO TOPICS.
    Jinnah and the US response to pakistan.
    Regarding Jinnah , al those who have commented with copy and paste are true to their CHARACTER , a pack of football hooligans , particularly the english variety. These hooligans visiting the host country abuse the national song of that country , even try to give COD HISTORY lessons.like telling Belgians “We saved you from Nazis”, forgetting Yanks saved them all.
    Serious academic work have been done on Jinnah . The foremost is AYESHA JALAL (oh yes despite the surname , she is NOT PAKISTANI).
    What some profoundly ignorant bloggers have posted is like the last 15 minutes of a film (The yankee coorespondent ’s report). Some as ususal have resorted to name calling.
    I dont know how many are aware JINNAH WAS A FULLY PAID UP MEMBER OF THE CONGRESS PARTY . So what happened , THIS IS WHERE AYESHA JALAL AND JASWANT SINGH COMES IN.
    It was profoundly hypocritical to dismiss the allegation THAT CONGRESS UNDER GANDHI WAS TOTALLY UNDER THE CONSERVATIVE HINDUS.
    If they could not stand NETAJI SUBHAS BOSE , what chance a muslim fish monger’s son has in that party.THEN HONESTY AND TRUTHFULLNESSS IS NOT A HINDU TRAIT IT IS MOSTLY SEEN AMONGST SCIENCE LOVING ANGLO SAXONS.

    Now US response towards Pakistan.
    I was amazed at the suferficiality of Vinod Sharma ’s reply to a blogger.
    Haqqanis are 14,000 strong , thinly spread , drones can do only so much . USA HAS A BASE INSIDE PAKISTAN from where drones are flown. This was splashed on the first page of THE TIMES of London , some six to nine months ago.
    US can DESTROY pakistan with sea based tomahawk missiles .
    Do remember pakistan has about 60 F16, so it will be F16 against F16.
    Also pakistan will take the war to afganistan.
    THE GREATEST WORRY
    Knowing how islamic mind works , i will not be surprised if pakistan LOBS few nukes acroos the wagah border , or for that matter at VASANT VIHAR.
    This will give a vicarious pleasure of having done something to avenge bangladesh war, AND ALSO MAKING THINGS MESSIER BY DRAGGING CHINA INTO IT , BY ITS INCURSION INTO ARUNACHAL PRADESH
    Have a good night sleep.

    Next is

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan

    I tend to agree with your reading on possible Pakistani reaction – they will throw bombs at India.. Let us hope Indian Govt has considered this possibility

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mishraji and 5rajiiv your history jugalbandi is SUPERB, bhaut vadia. Everyone pl u read above. I learnt a lot.

    And then total garbage by darnley alias Dr shan. LIAR SHAN, says ayesha jalaal is not pakistani. Ha, I have got her book on Jinnah in my house. The intro says ayesha is niece of Sadat Manto, the famous pakistani writer, shoeb and mishradoc spoke about. She left pakistan as an adult !!!!
    DONKEY LIAR Shan

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar_T, this is for the third goal that arsenal should have scored.
    Your lines
    For that to happen, we were not deprived of our basic needs (true there certain shortages from time to time – thanks to licence permit raj). Our way may be was slow, but humane and I have been very comfortable with it.
    I cannot help thinking, Coleridge while writing KUBLA KHAN must have been in the state that you were in while writing those lines.
    WE WERE NOT DEPRIVED, EXCUSE ME , WHO IS WE , ALL THE CHUBBY OVERFED BLOGGERS HERE.
    How about RamKhilaban , Ramnaresh , Jalebiya , how about KALAHANDI, BUSTAR , PURULIA , MURSHIDABAD, DANTEWADA .
    An average reading of Russian History will inform you the transformation of Russia post communism was breathtaking , WITHOUT PARALELL IN HISTORY. All the scarcity is only during the period 1980-2000. Russian agriculture hasalways been a problem . RUSSSIA NEVER DEVOLOPED ANY KIND OF FEUDALSM.With Zamindari , there is share cropping , thus some INCENTIVE, RUSSIA HAD SERFS , neither the landholder nor the tiller had any interest in the land ,
    THE FALL OF COMMUNISM IS THE GREATEST STORY YET UNTOLD. I will pay to listen.
    As for India AND WE WERE NOT DEPRIVED , HERE IS A CUT AND PASTE
    In 1947 the share of Agriculture in total GDP was 50%. Gradually it declined and has now
    come down to about 20%. Still however 60% population depend on agriculture for the
    survival. In 1988-89 i.e. prior to introduction of Financial Sector Reforms, growth rate in
    Agriculture in India was 15.4%, which has come down to 9.4%(2006-07). Due to rapid
    2
    growth of rural population and division of families the farmland has undergone rapid
    fragmentation. Presently 80% of the farmland holding are with the small and marginal
    farmers owning land up to 5 acres. For these category of farmers cost of production by way
    of farm inputs has increased manifold over the years while the productivity of the land
    remained at the same level and sale price of farm produce has not commensurately
    increased. These factors have driven farmers to the debt trap and have caused distress
    leading to suicide. My experience in the field has shown that smaller the landholding higher
    is the cost of production. The distressed economy of small scale crop cultivation is further
    accentuated by lack of knowledge, scientific application of crop management, diversification
    practices, inappropriate system such as non availability of quality input material in time,
    inadequate irrigation facility, non-remunerative prices, dominance of middlemen in
    Agricultural Marketing Structure.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No one has ever suggested that all has been hunky-dory in India.

    All I have suggested that in the Soviet Union, there was far greater human cost to achieve that “greatness” – shortages of basic consumer goods was just one of them. One could not go and live anywhere one liked, is another. If the foundations of the USSR were so great, then why did it collapse within less than 80 years?

    The USA (to cite one example) is still around after 200+ years of democracy (with all its share of problems) and has been a far bigger super-power – if that what matters, being a super power.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    the ground level execution of government policies is getting from bad to worse.
    Lack of numbers and quality of personnel are probably the single most reason.
    I sometimes wonder if the government should go on an emergency hiring spree for policemen, civil servants etc perhaps after making them go through a crash course tuned for their job.
    Sure, it will increase government expenses – but will serve two much needed purposes.
    1. It will finally give teeth to the delivery and enforcement machinery
    2. It will generate huge “demand” in the marketplace – through the salaries that these newly employed will get and the large education/ orientation programmes the government will need to run to make them employable in the first place.
    I am not a fan of big government- but, with the vast shortfalls even in sanctioned numbers of policemen and others, we have no choice but to address them first.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    I agree. We have very good laws and acts in place, but the implementation has been extremely poor.

    A) Shortage of personnel would be the major reason. Even sanctioned strength in any particular service / institution is not attained for years. For example,

    1) the Allahabad High court has a sanctioned strength of 160 judges, out of which 95 have not been filled for ages (is it in the guise of reducing expenditure or is to slow down the delivery of justice by vested interests – read politicians!).

    2) security establishment faces a shortfall of 1,327 officers. There are 3,393 IPS officers against a sanctioned strength of 4,720.

    Having realised the gravity of the situation, one cannot just fill in the shortage in one stroke – it has to be gradual process due to bottlenecks – the training institutes can take so many extra in a batch, but no more.

    Chidambaram had indicated in 2008, when became the HM, that these would be filled up in next five years or so – by direct recruitment and by competitive selection process from the lower ranks.

    B) IMO, the number of sanctioned posts have not kept pace with increase in population. I do not have the data to back my opinion.

    C) Decentralisation of power to lower levels (Panchayats, Zilla Parishads, etc) to recruit people would one way out of the mess. Recall my post about this re: Development Models – couple of blogs earlier..

    If more government means delivery systems work efficiently, I am all for it.

    AshishC Reply:

    First, a quick response to Gopi,
    I have very little doubt that an Arab Spring kind of uprising in India can only lead to anarchy; there is of course a very slim chance of that happening here- diversity being a reason.
    Now, to Manohar:
    I woke up to the shortage of personnel issue after the Chidambaram speech after 26/11. And, yes, I remember his promise to fill up those posts gradually over the nest 5 years (2 have gone) as also take steps to fill up vacancies at all levels in the police.
    Would it surprise you to find out that he has made no progress? Ok, I have no data; but, someone should simply file an RTI and ask, “Dear HM, you promised x and y; very speciffic promises. Now, just tell us- how many IPS officers 2 years back vs how many today? How many police constables then vs now?”
    An aside to Ravi:
    This is precisely the point I made couple of blogs back- my disappointment with PC and UPA is not because they did not identify the issues- it is because having identified that, they did nothing. Ravi, do you still maintain my argument qualified as “twaddle”?
    Back to Manohar,
    I suspect they will never fill the vacancies- because how else can the government balance its budget? They probably do the same jugglery in the Fin Min every year- planned expenses beginnng of the year on salaries – on 1000 people (say); while knowing fully well that 1000 is the sanctioned strength while only 600 is in employment. So, end of the year, government has 400 people’s salaries to play with and fund its non-plan expenditure.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    You have age advantage over me. I do not remember what I said, let alone the context within which it was said.

    However, you seem hurt. Allow me to assure you that you are one of the very few people I never ever intend to hurt.

    We may be poles apart, politically speaking, but I hold nothing but respect for you.

    My apologies for the inadvertent hurt I may have caused.

    AshishC Reply:

    Oops.. no; I have a very thick skin; personally.
    I was just seeking to rehash a point, which I thought was well-considered before being made but, received only summary dismissal.

    Ravi Reply:

    Happy to discuss it again.

    The only reason why I may have evaded a detailed considered response is if I was at work and was unable to.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    The wheels of the government move very slowly, the process very procedural and then there are vested interests.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/MHA-s-recruitment-plan-for-IPS-runs-into-trouble/Article1-703477.aspx

    I would not blame PC & the MHA in this matter.

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar/ashish
    There is a worldwide “movement” happening – disgust/dissatisfaction with the political class, disbelief in govt/institutions etc. The spontaneous reaction to Anna here, the tea party in US, the youngsters marching in Europe (i am not including the movement in autocratic Arab countries) etc.. it is not too far in future when an Indian girl from Kolkotta or Pune or Kochi will ask why I cannot have electricty 24 hrs, why I cannot have beetr roads (you get the jist). I believe a “post democratic” world is emerging. Many, here and abroad, have come to the conclusion that democracy as of now is manipulated by vested parties – business lobbysts in US andd in many otehr countries, unions in UK (although business is taking over), politicians/bureaucrats in India…. May be a glorious future is there–or may be total anarchy

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Do I see an alarmist in you?

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Shan,

    I hope you enjoyed 8-2 at Old Trafford not so long back. And how does it feel being in the bottom half of the table in the EPL?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ishwar , if you like , we can carve out a space in this blog for us . i am a Footie. That game was palyed by arsenal reserves , meaning junior team , apprentice. This is all due to the arrogance of Wenger. He shpuld have bought some players , which he eventually did. we create jems , we are becoming a feeder club . fabregas, Nasri ,toure , Clichy , Adebayor .
    Cant think of any other team selling their CROWN JEWELS.
    Oxalde chamberlain is very good , BUT WE NEED A PLAY MAKER , and just when we need it , Wilshere is out with injuries . Gary Neville said after the game “United supporters should not get too carried away , the proper arsenal team will threat as ever.
    HOW DID YOU ENJOY MAN U , LAST Tuesday , was about to be defeated by Basle. I understand they show more premiership games in India than they show in UK.
    I have STOPPED following the disgraceful , gaddar indian cricket team.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, we can talk about football on and off. I am not a regular here though. I keep visiting the blog for some very interesting discussions and insights from different people. As someone said, the comments section of this blog is “absolutely addictive”.

    All the best for your away game at the White Hart Lane on Sunday!!

  • Anonymous

    @Mishra,
    Enjoyed the link, writing about events in India in the spring of 1946,
    Its very informative and thanks for posting it. I would encourage all readers to read it.
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792780-6,00.html
    I would recommend everyone to read those 6-pages.

    Also the link I had given earlier from Margaret Bourke’s book should be a must read.
    http://iref.homestead.com/DirectAction.html

    @Balwinder,
    The more i read the history of that era, the more it becomes clear to me that Jinnah’s politics took a vicious communal turn because his muslim league did very badly in 1936-37 state assembly elections. Jinnah’s Muslim league had hoped to do well in muslim majority areas. However, Nehru-Gandhi-Netaji-maulana’s congress, who had forged a secular, Hindu-Muslim unity politics, did extremely well in Muslim majority areas. The success of Muslim candidates belonging to Congress above Muslim league’s muslim candidates, drove Jinnah to communal politics.
    Ironically the success of Hindu-Muslim unity ideology of Congress , spawned the most vicious communal politics of Jinnah’s Muslim league, aided and abetted by extrimist elements. It was all about political power and ambitious and egoist Jinnah was determined to teach the Congress of Nehru-Gandhi a lesson, irrespective of the means and the cost.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The current Pakistani response to US charge of duplicity has been summed up well by a Pakistani writing in DailyTimes.

    So the US is mad — really, really mad. And the Pakistani security establishment responds by acting madder and meaner. Really? A writer friend summed up the Pakistani response in an old Pashto anecdote, the sanitised version of which goes as follows: someone found a jackal howling by the roadside at night and asked what was up with the full-throated yelling. The jackal responded, “I am scaring the living daylights out of everyone.” “But why are your legs trembling,” asked that person. “I am scared too,” responded the jackal.

    Its a absurd theatre, drama and a circus all rolled in one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Suno Suno ai duniya walon chahen jitna zor laga lo..sabse aage honge hindustani…

    A truly inspiring tale of Indian hardwork
    http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/sep/280911-Paris-Hilton-Hundred-dollar-note.htm

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balwinder Praha

    I read your comment below. My request to you is do not look at Dr Manmohan Singh through the prism of your being a Sikh. For me it is immaterial whether he is Dr Man Mohan Singh or Dr Manmohan Saxena . The reason why I feel so angry with him is that he got a lot of respect and affection from the country ,and that included me ,but he chose to be loyal to someone else rather than the country. Since he did not come from the traditional Indian political background with vested interests, he could have done wonders for the country. If only he could have got his resignation letter typed and signed and kept in his left pocket , and if he had told his appointing authority…,now I shall do the best for my country and I don’t care whether I continue for 6 months or 6 weeks….. but that was not to be. He sold his soul to stick to that chair.. honestly speaking.. quite sad.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Spurious Detail

    As soon as the British decided that they will quit India, the struggle to define what Post Independence India would look like, started. The main sticking issue was who would govern, and what would be the power structures of the new nation.

    Principally three groups, were to become the stake knife holders in this tussle.
    These were the Muslims, who saw themselves as former rulers, the Hindus who saw an opportunity to once again establish their rule in a country they saw as being theirs, and the British who wanted a modern India, that remained within their sphere of influence. These groups were of neither of equal matching strengths nor were they holding clearly defined and universally agreed demands. This determined the negotiating tactics each employed. The ground realities changed by the hour as the clock towards August 1947 ticked and tocked.

    Jinnah’s role in this scrum has been chronicled here, what has not been detailed here is the role of the Congress, which at the time was representing both the moderate as well as hard-line Hindus.

    In the post independance Nation building phase in India, Jinnah was cast as the outright Villain, and Gnadhi the undisputed hero. Almost the exact opposite was the case in Pakistan. Some bloggers, both in this as well as the previous blog, have tried to change the commonly held perceptions about these two leaders of men, which were fabricated during this phase. This is an inevitable exercise as our nation matures and we no longer need villains to define ourselves. LK Advani and Jaswant Singh realise that. Sadly their masters in Nagpur do’nt.

    The Hindu right feels that much more political mileage can still be gained by continuing their persistent character assassination of both Jinnah and Gandhi.

    No amount of detail of the kind, in 1938 at the 38th annual jamboree of the Congress party, held in Nagpur, he said that to him and the other reacted like that, etc.” is going to camouflage the fact that what is going on is little more than character assassination for paltry political gain.

    The questions I posed as to why did LK Advani and Jaswant Singh utter revisionary niceties about Jinnah, still remain unanswered.

    Deliberately so.

    [Reply]

  • Mohanrrr

    Monahar/Ashish

    There are other dubious records of Shiv Sena. In sixties before targeting
    South Indians they tried these tactics on Gujaratis but it did not work
    as Gujartati population if Bombay was huge in number. Later in early seventies
    they tried to become Gandhi by forcing people to boycott foreign goods but in
    there own style of goondaism. There was very popular Japanse material in those times called double net and was being smuggled from middle east to India . These
    Shiv sena goons used to carry blades with them and anybody wearing double net
    trousers was their target.. They used to just catch those people in cut
    their trousers.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    If one were to chronicle the misdeeds of the Shiv Sena, it would run into 5000 plus pages.

    The amount of damage they have done to image of Maharashtra and to Maharashtrians is horrific.

    Scores of projects that should have naturally come to the state, quietly just went away.

    For example, the Indian School of Business was to be set up in New Bombay. Due to intransigence of the Thakre Sr, who insisted that a certain percentage (20-25%) of the staffing and students must be reserved for “Marathi Manoos”. The CM, Manohar Joshi, who had done all the spade work, was left standing twiddling his thumbs, as the founders (mostly Bombay based Industrialists) simply decided to accept the invitation (with no strings attached) of Chandrababu Naidu to establish it in Hyderabad, without even informing Manohar Joshi about their decision.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mohan/ Manohar,
    I may have unwittingly touched a raw nerve by introducing the Shiv Sena in the discussions!.
    One last question: how is it that no Shiv Sena biggie ever served time (or worse) for the riots in early ninetlties?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “how is it that no Shiv Sena biggie ever served time (or worse) for the riots in early ninetlties”?

    The same reason the RSS/BJP/VHP/BD goons in Gujarat are roaming free in Gujarat with impunity for 2002.

  • Anonymous

    Binoy Hegde,

    you said, “Shan

    I tend to agree with your reading on possible Pakistani reaction – they will throw bombs at India.. Let us hope Indian Govt has considered this possibility”.

    I learn from an utterly reliable source within the “coterie” the following:

    Yes, Indian government has MOST CERTAINLY considered the possibility.
    It considers the threat UNACCEPTABLE AND INDIGESTIBLE.
    It also has decided to respond strongly and with maximum force at its command.

    The response is this: A strongly worded complaint to the UNSC has already been prepared with able inputs from Oily Moily, Khali Kapal Sibal, Digvinash Singh and last BUT ALSO THE LEAST, OUR DEAR AMUL BABY. The Security Council will be asked to call an emergency meeting and will be requested to pass a unanimous resolution (S.M. Krishna has been even asked to note the numberof the resolution for all future references), requesting Pakistan to desist from any further adventurism.

    Contingency plans are already drawn to fly the dynasty members to Italy. A fully loaded 747 jumbo is ready 24/7 at IGI in a dedicated hangar, with a helicopter parked at 10 Janpath to lift the family to IGI.

    A strongly worded “appeal” is also drafted for the Indian cattle class, asking them to bear the loss of their near and dear ones, with a prayer to Allah the merciful to save those still living.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All
    Please read the 1946 Time Magazine report on Jinnah’s activities (link provided by Dr Mishra below) , and the report by Margeret Bourke/TimeLife photographer (link provided by Rajiiv)…these were the “real time on the ground” reporting of important activities leading to dismemberment and destruction of partition – shows what an evil man Jinnah was..how callous..to openly say “I will have India divided, if not, destroyed!”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    These links go to show the END of the story and not how and why one arrived at that tragic end.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Gopi,
    Thats the most important distinction. In 1920-ties, Jinnah argued that British were trying to rule by dividing Hindus and Muslims and rule them, so Hindus and Muslims , Congress and Muslim league , should fight together. He was then the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

    However in 1930-ties, as Congress gained more power , supported even by a majority of Muslims, and Jinnah’s Muslim league lost power in free and fair state assembly elections, he decided to use religion and fan communal hatred to win votes. The feudal lords , who feared loss of power in democratic India, rallied around him and financed him.

    He then started in his speeches to dwell on differences among Hindus and Muslims and would openly say such provocative things like
    “Hindus worship cows which I like to eat”.
    He had reduced himself to a petty, crimnal , thug in his ambitious and ego-maniacal lust for power. He finally acted as a catalyst, galvanizing communal hatred and personally lit the fires of partition riots with his well planned ‘day of direct action’ , under the command of his Muslim league government under Suharwardy, in Bengal.

    Jinnah should be remembered as one of the greatest mass-murderers in history.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi.

    Were LK Advani and Jaswant Singh, not aware of these facts??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mr Ravi

    When you can be a fan of Hafeez Saeed, Jinnah and Osama, why are you trying to blame LK Advani and Jaswant SIngh ?

    Pehle Darpan mein dekho…
    Darpan jhoot na bole..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    When and where have I blamed LK Advani or Jaswant Singh about anything.

    Look into a darpan. Do you see some one who can understand Simple English.

    I predict not!!

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal

    If your objective was just to throw a cheap gaali at me.

    Then consider it gracefully recieved.

    Now start dipping your roti into whisky and let those who are committed to rational debate, debate.

    Anonymous Reply:

    may not be–
    jaswant was only 7 years old then.. advani a student not yet in politics.

    And Time/Life etc (esp old copies) may not have been available too..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ha ha.

    You misunderstood me.

    These facts are in public domain, so they would have known before they made their revision of Jinnah’s image.

  • Anonymous

    Mishraji, u may remeber Rizwan”s father and Syed used to love your posts and yesterday u and rajiiv outdid youselves. I sm havong tea and going thru all the links.

    One point, syed and rizwan were both Shias and that may have something to do with it. Shias being a minority often, do look at life differently. Certainly now shiad Are On The run in pakistan and may look at partition differently. Shias donation offer for Ram mandir was well recd although some pseudo secular congressis here hated it.
    DONKEY SHAN is hiding after I caught his lie about Ayesha Jalal not being a pakistani. His rambling posts here worries me reg his mental heslth

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sardar Bhadhur Sardar Balwinder Singh Ji Sandhu, Hayes Waale.

    What happend to “thou shall not call names”??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yaar, bank mein credit aur debit hota hai. Dr shan has abused eveyone for so long, including YOU, ki hisaab abhi barobar nahin hai.
    Special rules for special people. Also when blog is red hot his rambling is like hugely irritating. I have to tske YOU up on jinnah ,btw, later, nothing escapes this shakespeare from Amritsar

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Take me on what I said, rather than what you imagine I have said.

    I will respectfully respond.

  • Anonymous

    Will US Bomb Pakistan? And what will be the result?

    There is a good chance that the US may be forced to take some action against its favourite errant child, Pakistan, once it has claimed that ISI was behind the US embassy attack and killing of its men in Afghanistan. THough the US economy is more or less drained out, it has to have a face saver. It won’t be a ground attack. But probably more dromes and maybe some bombers.

    Will China side up with Pakistan? I dont think so. China would be happy with this assault as this would throw Pakistan totally in its arms. This would be an occassion to sell more weapons ot Paksitan, as well as buy land and regions in Occupied kashmir, part of which has already been given to it by Pakistan.

    And India. I dont think Paksitan will launch a full scale attack on India in an attempt to unify the nation. It is already short of fuel and foreign exchange and wont open another front. However it would surely do another kargil. Musharraf too had claimed that Kargil was an attempt to focus the world’s attention to onto Kashmir. This attention gathering syndrome would again be used as a ploy.

    So it is exciting times ahead…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    sanjay

    US will do something — may be more tha drone..or expanded drone..
    Pak will react by doing something to India – eitehr a green signal to its LeTs to do a terrorist attack, or a “dirty bomb” attack ..
    I do not think they will do a direct military atatck; they will defimitely use their proxies..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    The anti India rhetoric of Pakistan is channelised through proxy jehadi groups.

    An Indian army colonal who fights in the Kashmir region once told me that you have to treat those guys as the Army– they are recruited by the army, trained by them and paid by them.

    Pakistan is capable of great perfidy. However this time there are chances that the US may be tempted to go ahead and create a mini state of Baluchistan and SInd to achieve a balacne of terror so that teir energy is diverted to fighting inner battles.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I agree.

    However, if US had to go to the security Council, for approval, which it may feel compelled to do on account of the fact that Pakistan is a Nuclear power. Then China will veto it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, China may veto the action. While India will abstain. Or maybe CHina will aslo abstain. You see China gains if Paksitan goes down the drain.

    it has the biggest customer for weapons and consumer goods.

    In exchange it will get a a port in Gwadar and a freeway from Beijing to Gwadar and an entry to Mideast markets.

    Of course, secretly the Pakistan establishment wont be too unhappy for selling themselves. For them converting 1.2 billion CHinese into jehadis would be a long wet dream…

    Anonymous Reply:

    China will veto any UN resolution that is against pakistani interest. China is developing pakistan as its outpost in greater middle-east.
    However behind the scene it will give a wink-wink-nod-nod for strike on Haqqani.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    Yes China may veto. But we need to do what is good for India. Will we?

    Anonymous Reply:

    India is NOTHING in global diplomacy. No one cares what India thinks and do. In world politics we are far below even pakistan.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Looks like all pakistan-sympathisers like Ravi are looking towards China…

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    u may feel nobody cares about India. Ok… but still we can start from your percieved zero position. We need to mould the world as per our needs…

  • Anonymous

    @Balwinder
    The otherday I learnt somehing from your reference to “chardi kala”, which is part of the prayer in gurudwara at the end of the kirtan when they ask for kids to be blessed with “chardi kala”. I must have attended more than 100 kirtans/langars in gurudwaras or friends houses and have organized a few langars myself with my wife in our local gurudwara. I am fluent in punjabi, but always wondered “a chardi kala, ki balay way ?” Somehow I never asked anyone. Your mention of it as meaning “byuoant enthusiasism” makes sense.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    तेरे पाने सरबत दा भला

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well I guess that’s anathor reference to “Chardi Kala” when they say something like
    “Nanak naam chardi kala, teray bhanay sarbat da bhala”
    However, when the granthi summarizes the prayers at the end of the kirtan he often says things like
    “bachay yaan nu chardi kala bakshni”
    Anyway, reference to sarbat da bhala reminds me of my father, who often used to say those 4 words “sarbat da bhala howay”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The meaning is simple.

    Nanak says “NAAM” (In Sikhism God is called Naam) is the only thing that would give you Chardi Kala, and that in turn will make every one happy and prosperous.

    My mentioning it to you, was a pun. Meaning that your asking the question will mean every one will benefit by the answer.

    Sikh prayer is for every one.

    जगत जलंदा राख ले अपनी किरपा तार, जित दुआरे उभरे तेते लेह उभार

    Anonymous Reply:

    No need to emphasise SIKH all the time..Sikh parayer??? Everyone knows we are talking about sikhism here.
    You never cease to amaze me with your deception.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The way I see teaching of Sikhism is that 95% of it is same as the teaching of Hinduism as in vedas, geeta, upanishads. There is one God. No shape, no form, no gender who is omni present and omniscience etc – are right out of Hinduism along with karma.

    Ravi Reply:

    Not sure all Sikhs would agree with you.

    Not that your fundo brain would accept that.

    “Ram rahim puran quran, anek kahain mat ek na manyo.”

    Keep fantasizing.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course not all Sikhs would agree with me. I dont know a single thing where even all Hindus would agree with me ! The name most often used for God in Kirtans and writings of the Gurus is ‘Ram’. By ‘Ram’ they refer God , not the son of Dashrath. All the mythology of Sikhism mostly common to Hinduism, along with definition of heavens. The Gurus themselves were all from Punjabi Khatri Hindu families.
    Sure criminal Khalistanis and such bigots would differ with me. They differ with Khushwant Singh too , who has said pretty much what I have said.
    Regarding the khalistanis and /or religious extrimists I would be ashamed if they agreed with me and that includes every peddler of the vile and criminal entity of Pakistan.

    Anonymous Reply:

    It doesn’t matter if Sikhism is 95% hindu or not. At least it is not murderous and violent like Islam.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    Why are you giving this terrorist Ravi undue importance? Didn’t you read his sympathies for Haqqani and protectors of Haqqanis?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well his consistent defense of some of the most bigoted and intolerant elements in S Asia or arguments that seek to minimize their vile, speak for themselves.

  • Anonymous

    Just my 2 cents on Jinnah-Advani-Jaswant…

    Whatever Jinnah said in his so-called secular speech means nothing when you look at his utterance before 1947.
    - He threatened civil war if pakistan demand is not accepted.
    - Direct action day was one such blackmail tactic.
    - He always considered hindus and muslims as two separate nations with two different religion, two different culture, totally different heroes blah blah..

    I consider him ideological father of all Islamic terrorist in indian continent. In fact it would not be off the mark if we call him first terrorist of undivided India in 19th century.

    Now coming to certificate given by Advani on Jinnah, there are many factors behind why he uttered those words for murderous Jinnah-
    1. He was visiting pakistan who has accused him of plotting Jinnah’s murder in 1947 just few years back. He praised Jinnah to get rid of that tag.
    2. Secondly he was in his home-state of Sindh where he grew up..He got emotional and made stupid remarks.
    3. He reminded pakistanis that Jinnah (although deceitful) wanted pakistan to be a modern state where religion will be irrelevant. He thought this may spark a debate in pakistan on secularim but pakistanis being shameless (an example Ravi here) chose to ignore his speech.
    4. Advani thought by praising Jinnah, he may win some brownie points in Indian muslim community. It is true that many Indian muslims privately live and breathe pakistan but when it comes to voting they are smart.

    According to me Advani is politician of the past not the future..He should quietly retire and fade away from scene.

    Jaswant Singh too is in Advani mould and I guess he was feeling neglected in BJP.

    In the present time Jinnah means nothing both in India as well as pakistan. It is time we start concentrating of true leaders of pakistan such as Hafiz Sayeed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    agree for most part except generalization of Indian Muslims — there r traoitors in all groups!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    You need to live in muslim majority area without letting them know who you are, to understand what they think in private.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    PURE FICTION should be classified under Dewey Classification 800.

    Product of some one who has pure Texan BS for brain.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You must be talking about yourself who sees virtues in Islamic terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Agree with you Rajiv.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Caption on a Pak TV program
    “Ek taraf Umricca, doosray taraf Haqanni,
    Kya karay bechara Pakistani ? “

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Begging bowl lekar ghoom-ega
    China ko choom-ega

    Phir

    Phir Hindustan ke Track2 walon ko dhoodega…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Sanjay
    Pakistan has attacked Indian embassy in Kabul two times, killing Indian personnel. USA has taken the unusual step of publicly informing India that the terrorists that attacked Indian embassy were in contact with ISI.
    So what has India done ?
    Nothing.
    In Fact India is embaressed when USA informs it so publicly because the Indian government considers itself impotent to take any retributive measure. India certainly has options like financing the poor Baluchis who are fighting a most brutal crakdown from Pakistan. Not a single Baluch leader that opposes Pakistan is alive in Baluchistan. They get killed and there body dumnped on streets. In contrast every Kashmiri leader from Geelani to Malik who oppose Indian in Kashmir, have been protected by the state.
    Thugs don’t see the difference between democratic India and the most vile, criminal entity of Pakistan.

    Anyway, now that USA has publicly accused ISI of supporting attack on US consulate in Kabul, it will be interesting to see if USA too is as impotent as India in dealing with this incorrigibly criminal entity called Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    We should be embarrased by the perrformance of the minions who pass of as our Foreign Ministers. Except for jaswant Singh in 98 and Atal bihari Vajpayee in 78, most foreign Ministers ahve been wimps who read out general statements.

    India should use the favourable situation to ram home the advantage. Most likely we will make a mess out of it.

    Tackling a state like Paksitan can be PRETTY simple ! The solution is films and dramas and not just bombs.

    If somebdoy were to make a fiction film which makes fun of the suicide bombers in a Dharmendra sort of way– loud, Punjabi and boisterous, you would have reduced the Pakistani killer machinery to a joke.

    i think the battle will really have to be fought at a level which makes the trainers of the suicide bombers look evil in the eyes of the Paksitanis.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    BJP and Jaswant lost the argument when they panicked and escorted the 3 terrorists to Kabul following Kandhar hijacking.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    U r reading the situation wrong. Jaswant Singh was a brave and maybe a foolhardy person. At that point, we did not get any international support. How would you have got the hostages free?

    Remember the taliban are medivial animals who will kill all innocents just for publicity. So either you gave them the terrorists or got the hostages killed.

    Do you think Sm Krishana or Pranab Mukherji (our previous foreign Minster) would have gone to Kandhar to personally negotiate with with fanatic and rabid killers?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    Interesting idea .

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    I agree with most of Rajeev’s points- edited-’ Now coming to certificate given by Advani on Jinnah, many factors -

    1. He was visiting pakistan who had accused him of plotting Jinnah’s murder
    2. He reminded pakistanis that Jinnah wanted pakistan to be a modern state where religion will be irrelevant.
    3. Advani thought by praising Jinnah, he may win some brownie points in Indian muslim community. ‘
    ————————————–
    can I add 4. Godhra- Gujrat

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Very selective quoting of Advani or Jaswant on Qatl-e-azam Jinnah is mischivious and done mostly by Pak peddlers.

    In 1920-ties, Jinnah argued that British were trying to rule by dividing Hindus and Muslims and rule them, so Hindus and Muslims , Congress and Muslim league , should fight together. He was then the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

    However in 1930-ties, as Congress gained more power , supported even by a majority of Muslims, and Jinnah’s Muslim league lost power in free and fair state assembly elections, he decided to use religion and fan communal hatred to win votes. The feudal lords , who feared loss of power in democratic India, rallied around him and financed him.

    He then started in his speeches to dwell on differences among Hindus and Muslims and would openly say such provocative things like
    “Hindus worship cows which I like to eat”.
    He had reduced himself to a petty, crimnal , thug in his ambitious and ego-maniacal lust for power. He finally acted as a catalyst, galvanizing communal hatred and personally lit the fires of partition riots with his well planned ‘day of direct action’ , under the command of his Muslim league government under Suharwardy, in Bengal.

    Jinnah should be remembered as one of the greatest mass-murderers in history

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,

    Wajid Ali, a friend of Jinnah, once asked him, “Quaid, tell me how you have bamboozled the Musalmans. You enjoy yourself in the evening, you are not a scholar of Urdu, you don’t practice your religion – how do you manage to be their leader? Jinnah replied, ’have I ever told you that I am your leader as a Musalman? I am an advocate, pleading the cause of Musalmans, taking the part of Musalmans, fighting their fight. Nothing more nothing less”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    That probably is a better way to understand Jinnah.

    Don’t look at what he is saying; look at who he is representing.

    In that respect, the very rabid ultra conservative Muslims that forced the partition of India, are the ones who are now in ascendency in Pakistan.

    But all Pakistani’s or Muslims are not like them. It is this distinction we need to keep a hold of.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “But all Pakistani’s or Muslims are not like them.”

    But all jihadis are like you, adopting fake identities like Ravi, Ram Autar, Tajender etc., etc, and indulging in teror.

    Ravi Reply:

    P A T H E T I C. S I C K R A N T I N G F U N D O

    Anonymous Reply:

    Moti lal Nehru wasa TOADY. He was NEVER a barrister, he was MUKHTAR , pleaders as they were known in mughal courts.

  • Dr Mishra

    rajiiiv and everyone says-
    ‘ BJP and Jaswant lost the argument when they panicked and escorted the 3 terrorists to Kabul following Kandhar hijacking. ‘

    Can I diagree- the lives of 150 passengers were at stake, in a foreign lawless land with Taleban in charge- and it was not a bluff, the passengers could easily have been killed and India could have done sweet f all.

    Very very difficult decision, very hard bargaining, only 3 terrorists released. I think I would have done the same. Remember this was 1999, pre 911 before US swung to our side. We were reeling under Kashmir terror, no end in sight…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr Mishra:

    There are always two sides/multiple approaches..
    To me the Indian Govt took a “political” decision; not the right decision.

    The 150 passengers must have been sacrificed, rather than the honour of India — because India lives longer than us, the 150 passengers, the ministers. India’s honour is not something that can be bargained by a few peddly terrorists.

    .ya it is a tough statement…with all my sympathies to the families, looking from outside, that is what I would have done…

    Now, no politician will get reelected if he does something like this, unless, that politician is of Gandhi, Patel (or even Anna) stature.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    It surely must have been a very tough decision to make. Even P Chidambram admitted later that he would not know how he would have acted in a similar situation.

    Perhaps, if our Government then had acted tougher for little while longer, then may be the outcome would have been different.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Advani and Jinnah… and Modi!

    Advani is a politican whose time has gone. But I hink his predicament on visiting Sindh was the same as that of Modi being offered a religious cap.

    I think Modi should have worn the Muslim cap just to show his solidarity.

    While Advani could have gone slow on jinnah, even though his intention probably wa to tell them that jinnah would not have been in favour fo Traliban and LeT but would have chosen a liberal modern government which had place for other religions.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    Modi refusing to wear the skullcap, to me, was a great example of courage and self-confidence. “I am not going to do something just because it is politically correct”..Kudos to Modi -

    Any “lesser” politician would have worn not one, but two!
    Secularits will definitely find fault; but voters will definitely like him more!
    High time for a strong man .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No comments ! I would have still gone for the skull cap.. or even a bowler hat…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Just imgine that Modi had accepted the skull cap and for 5 minutes even wore it.

    What do you think would have happened to his image.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    It would have been a double negative..

    People hounding him will say that he wore it appease/wash off
    .
    People who are for him will say he has become like any other politician.

    By not wearing, he has got a “delta” more admiration from the first group, while holding on to the second.

    I just wish other politicians had his gut! Call a spade a spade

    (not the gut of committing the crimes some attribute to)

    good night, it is late here.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    On every count I disagree with you.

    By not wearing all he achieved was consolidate his existing fan base. He would not have added to it.

    Whilst, by wearing it, he would have lost a negligible proportion of his fan base but would have gained many new ones not only in Gujarat but nationally.

    He would have catapulted himself to the National Stage.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    If he had refused to wear headgear of various regions of Gujarat and the skullcap, everything would have been fine. By singly out one, he sent out a wrong message in a country that seeks to celebrate its diversity. The issue of being a strong man, etc. is not the point. There is no half-way house in politics.

    One can admire for his honesty to tell a section of the community that he would deal with them on his own terms. On the other hand, heavens would not have fallen, if he had worn ………….

    “He worked overtime to ………..”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Even Hindus asked for just one Babri Masjid to be respectfully removed. Did the Muslims oblige? No. The result – it doesn’t exist any longer. Makes me happy.

    Why should Mr. Modi have gone out of the way? Can you tell me an instance when the Muslims of this country have offered a similar gesture in the past decade or two? I am not old enough to the history before 90’s.

    Anonymous Reply:

    OK. I “see” it.

    Just because Muslims have never obliged the Hindus, Modi did not oblige and refused to wear the skull-cap.

    One gets to “learn” something everyday if one keeps one’s eyes open. Thanks for “educating me”. I must be really “stupid” not to have seen the episode from this angle.

    This is a message for the minorities – be good, concede all the demands of the Hindutvawadis, then watch Modi – how obliging he will be towards the community. He might even christian (pun intended) himself as Maulana Narendrabhai Modi. to show he really means business. (TIC).

    PS: Now I wait for a foul-mouthed response, just like last time.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Please educate me. What is it that you find foul in my above post? I would humbly apologise.

    BTW, I never asked them to concede all the demands – just one. You see what you want to see in my post.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I was expecting a foul-mouthed response, like the last time. If you have chosen not to, I apologise.

    It is not you who is asking for one, it is the RSS/BJP/VHP (Hindutvawadis and not Hindus – please keep that distinction in mind) , they have laid claims on 3000+ mosques in the country, saying they were built after destroying the temples.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar, Just for an argument sake; if there is solid proof (titles/land records) that these mosques were built on temple land, and if some of these mosques are not active; what should be the problem in reverting these non-active mosques that are built on temple land (there have to be irrefutable proof)

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    In most cases the land does belong to some body.

    The point is not that Temples can not be built. The point is that such activity is a part of a political game.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    let me give the context and also content of the so called Jinnah praise. I am quoting Advani himself, who has said that he stood by every word he had written in the visitors’ diary at Jinnah’s mausoleum.

    PLEASE NOTE, CAREFULLY, THAT WHILE ADVANI HAS QUOTED SWAMI RANGANATHANANDA, SAROJINI NAIDU AND JINNAH HIMSELF, HE HAS NOT SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS THAT JINNAH WAS A SECULAR. ‘A GREAT MAN’-YES, BUT SECULAR? NO.

    He (Advani) explained how his meeting with the then Ramkrishna Mission chief Swami Ranganathananda had led him to make the Jinnah comment in a “subconscious way” over three years back.(2005)

    “Swamiji(Ranganathananda), in particular, lauded Jinnah’s historic speech in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11 August 1947 and said, “The true exposition of the meaning of secularism can be found in this speech. In a subconscious way, this last conversation with Swamiji was to play a decisive contributory role in my own remarks about Jinnah when I went to Pakistan in May-June 2005,”

    “Our conversation at this last meeting (in 2003 in Kolkata) centred on our days in Karachi, the tragic developments triggered by Partition and the role of Mohammed Ali Jinnah,” he writes.

    The BJP leader said that Jinnah, in his speech to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947, had favoured a secular and non-theocratic state and the Pakistan founder was of the view that there should not be any difference between Hindus and Muslims as all were its citizens.

    “There are many people who leave an irreversible stamp on history. But there are few who actually create history. Qaed-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah was one such rare individual. In his early years, leading luminary of freedom struggle Sarojini Naidu described Jinnah as an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. His address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947 is really a classic and a forceful espousal of a secular state in which every citizen would be free to follow his own religion. The State shall make no distinction between the citizens on the grounds of faith. My respectful homage to this great man.”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    I guess you are right. Advani is too shrewd a politician to fall into the praise Jinnah at all costs trap. His remarks were probably wrenched out of context and it was made to seem that he had become a Jinnah spokesman.

    Strangely most Pakistani jehadi parties consider Jinnah a wimp and possible weak on Hindus since he never talked about massacring or converting them as these jehadis do.

    In comparison to them Jinnah certainly looks like an ambassador of peace and secularism

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Compare Advani’s quoting Jinnah with what the future prime minister of India told the US ambassador-”compared to Hindu right wing terror, the LeT and Jaish are harmless”.

    Ravi Reply:

    Praise indeed

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    By the way… where is Vijay Kumar. His blogging got me to this place, as that of many of you guys…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    One said : Hindus and Muslims are like my two eyes.
    Other said : Hindus worship cows which I would like to eat.

    One said : India would be divided over my dead body.
    Other said : I would have India divided or destroyed.

    One faught for communal harmony and unity.
    The other saw opportunity in communal hatred, murder, carnage just as the vultures who fed on the dead bodies on the streets of Calcutta following Jinnah’s direct action.

    Yes Jinnah’s lust for power ended in politics of a communal mass murderer and no wonder the nation his evel ideology spawned is vilest of all entities. Its an entity who operative ideology, like that of his hero, is fraud, deceit and duplicity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The communal mass murderer’s legacy continues in the Land of the Pure…with the whole country belonging to the last pure man..

    The country established on farce and blood will wither away by its farces

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balls the trolls , AYESHA JALAL is of AMERICAN NATIONALITY, all her studies were in american colleges. She dedicates her book to her TUTOR at cambridge, a bengalee bhadrolok ,and her immeasurable debt to Prof Sugata Bose , another bhadrolok , directly related to Netaji Subhas Bose.
    Then what’s the point in talking to a TROLL

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rajiiv

    I think in the end the partition was good for all of us. The parts and the ideology which was perrpetually violent is no longer part of us.

    In the end we may need to thank jinnah for this. I can’t see how an Akhand bharat… !! A partitioned Bharat seems a better preposition.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I certainly agree on that point. Nehru, Patel had come to the same conclusion that Jinnah’s communal frenzy to have India divided or destroyed was far more stronger than their calls for unity and brother-hood. Once that communal ideology was unleashed and legitimized, partition was a reality, sooner or later.

    As some Pakistanis have argued, Jinah divided subsontinent Muslims into 3 parts, W Pakistan, Bangladesh and India and did a favour to India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “In the end we may need to thank jinnah for this. I can’t see how an Akhand bharat… !! A partitioned Bharat seems a better preposition”.

    Try telling that to the RSS and other crackpots in the country.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    MY TWO PENNY OPERA(in response to two pence , also exchange rate is 100 pence will fetch 164 cents.

    JINNAH made a will to donate substantial amount of money to Aligarh university and BOMBAY UNIVERSITY(yes you are reading it correct , his alma mater)
    HE DID NOT CHANGE HIS WILL TILL HIS DEATH

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Too many iiii’s don’t improve perception. For that, one has to lighten the mind

    मेरे हमनफस, मेरे हमनवा, मुझे दोस्त बन के दगा न दे
    मैं हूँ दर्द-ऐ-इश्क से जान-वलब, मुझे ज़िन्दगी की दुआ न दे

    मेरे दाग़-ऐ-दिल से है रौशनी, इसी रौशनी से है ज़िन्दगी
    मुझे डर है ऐ मेरे चारागर, यह चिराग तू ही बुझा न दे

    मुझे ऐ छोढ़ दे मेरे हाल पर, तेरा क्या भरोसा है चारागर
    यह तेरी नवाजिश-ऐ-मुख़्तसर, मेरा दर्द और बड़ा न दे

    मेरा अजम इतना बुलंद है, के पराये शोलों का डर नहीं
    मुझे खौफ आतिश-ऐ-गुल से है, यह कहीं चमन को जला न दे

    वोह उठें हैं लेके होम-ओ-सुबू, अरे ओ ‘शकील’ कहाँ हैं तू
    तेरा जाम लेने को बज़्म में कोई और हाथ बड़ा न दे!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sorry DISGSTING Shan, u do NOT get away so easy. Ayesha Jalal was a pakistani who migrated to US, you did not know that and are now trying to hide yr mistake by calling her american. Pathetic, sickening
    Like your LIES about= teachers and urologists in Uk, bengal GDP, and total ignorance of farming subsidy of 60 billion euros. Dont mind yr being IGNORANT allatime, it is yr cheap boasts and meaningless verbosity tbat raises my Bp.
    She married Netaji,s grand nephew who helped her in her battle against Hindujas, another fact u did NOT know, u smelly cockroach

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi, Mishraji has the knack of poting the most provocative posts. Kandahar hijack=I want a vote, who is right=
    1. Mishra doc says, save 150 passengers, let 3 terrorists go. He further provokes when he says, only 3 terrorists. Wah
    2. Gopi says, let 150 die. He says Indian honor more imp
    3. Maybe u have better response, a totally different tareeka.
    Pl vote, this is no trap, I respect gopi and docsaab much.
    Please u vote as u would have done not as you would like to have done. Ie, no waffle, no chatterati cocktail party type emty talk

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No I would not have given up so early.
    We knew that the hijackers were answerable to ISI and should have piled up pressure on Pakistan. We should have started by expelling their ambassador to India, after privately giving them 24 hour notice to have the hostages free. We should have made clear to Pakistanis that we viewed Pakistan accountable for the actions of the hijackers, who were all Pak nationals.
    Meanwhile, the hijackers , one of them was a brother of JeM terrorist who was freed, were equally concerned about the fate of the terrorists in Indian custody. We would have given the hijackers two options. They free the hostages and India would free the prisoners once they completed the prison term.
    If they harmed the hostages then India would give the prisoners real life-sentences including death.

    Would all this have worked ? I dont know. But India gave up too early.
    Mr Vajpayee should have publicly taken the people into confidense regarding the repurcussions of bowing to terrorist demands and privately met with the families of the hostages to personally ask their patience and support. However, sinve Vajpayee did not have that personal conviction to risk all and not succumb, he took the easier way out , not for personal gain, but he thought the fight was not worth it. Thats where I differ. The government vacillation meanwhile emboldened the media and the families to mount more pressure on the government, which was deplorable and was a result of Government not communicating its will properly.

    The time gained should have been used to bring more diplomatic pressure on Pakistan, through USA, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia. Pakistan state had the key to resolve this and we should have made clear and exacted a long term cost on Pakistan if it did not free the hostages. We should have put the entire relationship with Pakistan on the line and mentioned the word Baluchistan somewhere there.

    I can bet, under similar circumstances today, US government would risk the lives of the hostages rather than give in to terrorist demands.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    totally impractical rajiv, diplomatic pressure takes weeks to build up. You expel diplomat, they do same.
    When Iranians took US embassy hostage, US could do DHELA.
    Live in the real world- not every battle can be one. One step back sometimes to take two forward another time

    Anonymous Reply:

    Even mad mullah Iranians had to finally release all the hostages, USA showed patience and persistance.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “But India gave up too early.”

    I agree.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balls the trolls , I first came across Ayesha Jalal In a book edited by Irfan Habib, called akbar and his India .This should be enough to get yourKacha in a twist.

    She obtained her BA, majoring in History and Political Science, from Wellesley College, USA, and her doctorate in history from the University of Cambridge. Jalal has been Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge (1980-84), Leverhulme Fellow at the Center of South Asian Studies, Cambridge (1984-87), Fellow of the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Scholars in Washington, DC (1985-86) and Academy Scholar at the Harvard Academy for International and Area Studies(1988-90). She has taught at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Tufts University, Columbia University, Harvard University
    So what is Arnold Schwarznegger, AUSTRIAN OR AMERICAN.
    I am not aware Yanks allowing foreigners standing for elections
    More on jinnah after my shower and green tea.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Loser SHAN still trying disparately to cover his mistake. Try saying “Shwarzenegger is not Austrian ” and see how stupid u sound. Everday shan cockrach makes mistakes

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Shan

    Your post of 20 hrs ago on TWO TOPICS.
    Jinnah and the US response to pakistan.

    Was a delight to read and so very true.

    Ravi

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vote no 2
    should Modi have worn the muslim cap=
    Gopi says, no
    SAnjay mittal says yes
    what do u say
    pl vote

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Cap vote, I stik my neck out.
    OF COURSE MODI SHOULD HAVE WORN THE CAP, WHAT A WASTED OPPORTUNITY.

    But that is Modi for you, a vital bit missing. It would have pleased the muslims, would have built bridges. Magnanimity in victory, actually a sullied victory in which economic growth is the only objective, was essential

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    killer modi is hindu harday samrat why,

    for Nano plant at low rate
    Modi is busy covering up the below scams before the lok pal catches him:The state government allotted 1100 acres of land to Tata Motors Ltd (TML) to set up the Nano plant near Sanand. The land was allotted allegedly at Rs900 per square metre while its market rate was around Rs10,000 per square metre. Simply put, the government gave Tata Motors total monetary benefit of Rs33,000 crore.Land sold cheap to Adani Group
    Land was allotted to Adani Group for the Mundra Port & Mundra Special Economic Zone (SEZ) at Re1 per square metre. This is grossly lower than the market rate.Cheap land for ind, not for airforce
    The Gujarat government allotted 3,76,561 square metre of land to real estate developer K Raheja at Rs470 per square metre, while the South-West Air Command (SWAC) was asked to pay Rs1100 per square metre for 4,04,700 square metre land.Agricultuure University land allotted for hotel
    State government allotted 65,000 square metres of land belonging to Navsari Agriculture University in Surat to Chatrala Indian Hotel Group for a hotel project despite objection from the institute. This deal was allegedly brokered by the chief minister through his office causing a loss of Rs426 crore.Border land for chemical firmsA huge plot of land near the Pakistan border was allotted to salt chemical companies said to be close to BJP leader Venkaiah Naidu.Essar Group’s encroachmentState government has allotted 2.08 lakh square metres of land to Essar Steel. Part of the disputed land is CRZ and forest land that cannot be allotted as per Supreme Court guidelines.Land given to Bharat HotelPrime land was allotted to Bharat Hotels without auction on Sarkhej-Gandhinagar Highway in Ahmedabad. The company has been allotted 25,724 square metre land.Corruption in allotment of lakes
    State government, in 2008, awarded contracts for fishing activities in 38 lakes without inviting any tenders; bidders were ready to pay Rs25 lakh per lake.Land given to L&T
    Larson & Toubro (L&T) was allotted 80 hectare land at Hazira at the rate of Re1 per square metre.Land allotted to other industries
    Instead of auctioning prime land in the major cities of the state, the Gujarat government had allotted the land to some industries and industrialists who had signed MoUs in the five editions of VGGIS.Cattle feed fraud
    The Gujarat government had purchased cattle feed from a blacklisted company at Rs240 per 5 kg whereas the market rate is just Rs120 to Rs140 per 5 kg.Scam in Anganwadi centres
    Two bidders apparently formed a cartel and bid for supplying supplementary Nutrition Extruded Fortified Blended Food (EFBF) to Anganwadi centres of the state. One company bid for three zones, while the other for only two. Guidelines were violated, causing the state exchequer a loss of Rs92 crore.GSPC
    Despite an investment of Rs4933.50 crore, GSPC has been able to earn only Rs290 crore from the 13 out of 51 blocks of oil and gas discovered by the company. Contractual relations of Geo-Global and GSPC deserve investigation since Geo-Global is to be hired for a higher fee, above profit-sharing.Luxury aircraft used by CM
    Instead of using commercial flights or state-owned aircraft and helicopter, chief minister Narendra Modi had used private luxury aircraft for around 200 trips in five years. The cost had been borne by the beneficiary industries.Rs500 crore SSY scam
    The Rs6237.33 crore Sujalam Sufalam Yojana (SSY) announced in 2003 was to be completed by 2005 but it is still not completed. Public accounts committee of Gujarat assembly unanimously prepared a report indicating a scam of overRs500 crore which was not tabled.Indigold Refinery land scam
    Around 36.25 acre farmland in Kutch district was purchased and sold in violation of all norms by Indigold Refinery Ltd.Swan Energy49% of the shares of Pipavav Power Station of GSPC were sold to Swan Energy without inviting any tenders.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Fake Ram Auter,
    GET LOST

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Shenoy

    What is your response to the points being made.

    Usually you are quite keen on detailed points of this nature.

    Why the unneccasry hostility, why not counter the points being made.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Fake Ram Auter is a discard, a derelict, a castaway, who, after receiving your love and protection and Vinod Sharma’s tolerance, was still thrown away as a poisonous weed, a rabid dog.

    What response? Since he is your fellow jihadi, post a suitable response, which will earn you extra couple of pounds from the ISI.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mayawati, the great legatee of Ambedkar himself, sent her special aircraft to Mumbai to pick a pair of slippers.

    engrich Reply:

    go to court if it is true.u are master in spreading rumours.that is why rss is called RUMOUR SPREADING SOCIETY.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Very good”. You really know how to “defend” your side, taking the help of Mayawati. Let me see how I can help you, never mind if it obfuscates the matter.

    BSY and Reddy Brothers have been accused of corruption.

    Anonymous Reply:

    why did you forget Dharam Singh, Kumaraswamy and also Digambar Kamat afflicted by the same scam?

    Ravi Reply:

    • A typical rant of a lost BJP/RSS Hindu Fundo, who unable to address rational arguments descends to the gutter of abuse.

    A bully, just like all other Hindu Fundos, a crypto Saffron terrorist.

    engrich Reply:

    pundit u failed to awnser a single point.
    i know u people have no brain.u only master the art of deceiving.expert in writing fictions

    Anonymous Reply:

    What points? If you know the above is true you can prove it in a court of law, please proceed. The courts were open when I checked last.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ishwar

    The allegations about Modi and his government can only be investigated by the Lokayukta, whose appointment Modi has been delaying it for the last 8 years and now has gone to the court when one was appointed. If he has not done anything wrong, then why oppose the appointment of R. A. Mehta in the High Court? What is he scared of?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar, If I oppose something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I am scared of it. I oppose it, because it is wrong. Now, do you see the irony here? A governor appoints a Lokayukta without consulting the govt. of the state. Is this how the President of the country should also work?

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are not answering my main question. Why didn’t he take steps to appoint one for 8 years. So perhaps out of exasperation the Governor called the other members of the slectionpanel and did the needful. Whether the Governor was right or wrong, let the Court decide.

    Anonymous Reply:

    You find fault with the Governor for appointing a Lokayukta without consulting Modi, but you seemto find nothing wrong if Modi does not bother to get one appointed for 8 long years.

    One does his/herduty is wrong and one who does not seems right.

    Strange set of standards you have.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Modi had sent a list of 3 ex-chief justices to the governor, none of whom the governor liked.

    He had called the opposition leader for consultation and consensus, but the LOP abstained from attending any of these meetings.

    The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional. She appointed Desai because Desai was very much liked by Teesta Setalvad. He has also the reputation of being a sympathiser of some of the virulently anti-Modi NGOs, which is why his appointment, ultra-virus as it is, is being opposed by Modi government.

    The fact that the MMS government is contemplating recall of the Lokayukta unofficially itself is proof that Modi is right in his constitutional position.

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    I think this is what Modi should have done.

    1. He should have worn the skull cap for five minutes.

    2. Then in front of the camera he should have removed the skull cap and replaced it with a BLACK CAP.

    3. He should have stuck a Groucho Marx mustache on his face.

    4. With a twisted face, slightly tilting to one side, he should have said.

    5. All people are born alike – except Hindus and Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Your current prophet king of Saudi Arabia refused to visit Rajghat citing religious reasons…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev, why obsess always with lowly Saudia. Who cares what their primitive kings do ?

    Use them to ensure that max indians get job there, are well treated and that we have some influence with OIC. Whether Saud goes to Rajghat or jhumritaliya reflects on his charater

    Anonymous Reply:

    Is Saudi Arabia’s king a role model for Modi or for that matter any Indian politician?

    Anonymous Reply:

    “…………to visit Rajghat ………”

    Coming from a person, who in the previous blog, was out to take Mahatma Gandhi to cleaners, speaks volumes. In your books, the King must be right not to visit ….

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev king of saudi arabia is jew they go to gb road.did not visited even grand mosque.they are from mokhadai tribe of iraq which is jewish tribe.

    AshishC Reply:

    How have you been Ram Autar/ Tejender/ Laxman….?
    Just curious; do you ever think of running your own blog? It’s real easy; you can set up one in Wordpress or blogger real quick.
    You have enough followers here; so, visitor starts will start looking good from day one. Frankly, by coming here, you are not monetizing your potential as a star blogger.

    engrich Reply:

    ashish u dont know i am your and read all ur blogs.u have good knowledge of communist movement.but lazy brhmns have destroyed this movement.i dont what maa kali will do.
    they lost because they ignored muslim voters.their condition did not improve during their rule,though they came to power because of their votes.
    i hope they will correct their mistakes when come next time to power.

    now brhmn bania (marwari)nexus is ruling west bengal.
    i hope this great state will shine.again.

    modi is creation of brhmncl media.he has done nothing except dstroying the institutions of state.
    judiciary executive and police were under him not under lawanyhow he is illetrate ex-teaboy of road side restraunt.what else can be expected from him him.as per datas poverty has increased under his rule.flow of money is hermeticaly sealed.fruits of development is not reaching to poors.
    brhmnical media cracy can do wonders.because of them an illerate swarasti is worshipped as godess of knowledge.they are really great people.
    of land.he should be tried in special court for this.

    they made indian fight with indians on ram temple issue for more than decade.when brhmn bharadwaj entered halfnama i n supreme court confirming that rama never ex
    istd on indian soil.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Excellent.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Now, now..
    methinks he should have worn the cap; what’s the big deal?
    It has been suggested that he did not do so because he was worried his core constituency would desert him.
    Desert him? Really? And go where?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Where do you think. Where do you think it was before the Black Topi Wallah’s took over.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder, I have not followed the cap episode. It looks trivial to me. However, if someone requests me to wear a cap that would make someone happy if I wear a cap for few moments, I would do so. However, I would not like someone who would wear a cap cynically for political gain. I dont know how exactly the scenario happened, so cannot give an opinion.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    If Modi had worn the cap, the pseudos would have screamed,” this is vote bank politics; Modi is trying to undercut us from our age old, time-tested method of hoodwinking the Muslim community and we will not permit him to upstage us”.

    Since he has declined, politely, to wear the skull cap, the Ulema, the pseudos and also the so called liberals are now screaming that this is Hindu fundamentalism.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    what is cap.he could wear for a moment.but now brhmnsts want his neck like ghandhi,a bania was killed like treet dog by a chitpavan after aim of freedom(socalled)was achieved.
    brhmnst do clean job.power without accontability.hawala dealer ramdev was hyped throgh media to loot india and indians.now he will go to jail on foriegn exchange charges.
    anna was hyped by their media to establish dictatorship of brhmns through lokpal bill.next 100 supreme cout judgeswill be brhmns only.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Fake Ram Auter, get lost.

    Ravi Reply:

    Typical BJP/RSS response. Can not deal with the points, attack the person.

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) As if the blog is owned by you, that you tell others to get lost. Who you think you are?

    2) A person would rather keep silent if he is unable to refute the points raised, but then I am talking about a sensible person.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar Ji.

    BV Shenoy is a bully.

    Last time he led the charge and succeeded. That encouraged him and he started attacking others too.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, you are wrong. He is not a bully. He attempts to be one.

    Ravi Reply:

    Well in that case let us ensure that he does not succeed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    He has never succeeded with me at least and would not.

    Ravi Reply:

    He has in every single blog tried to persuade other blogers to not engage with me, because in his opinion I am a Fake.

    No one has taken any notice of it.

    So not very successful with me either.

    Anonymous Reply:

    In the last blog, he had questioned some of his supposed “fans and chelas” for interacting with me. They simply ignored him.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    this fake Ravi has provided the proof for you why this cretin was banned.

    Ravi Reply:

    Have I??

    Care to share it with us.

    That is news to me.

    The only proof we have is that you are dyed Saffron Hindu Fundo.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    I wish you had some sense and a little inkling about why bloggers here are asking for banning this cretin, before rushing to defend him.

    “Nothing is so good for an ignorant man as silence; and if he was sensible of this he would not be ignorant.”

    Anonymous Reply:

    That is not the point

    Let Vinod Sharma decide, you and the rest including me do not have even a millionth of millimetre locus standi to tell anyone to get lost. You do not like someone’s post or find it inane or full of balderdash – the best policy is to ignore it – the way I treat your posts.

    Silence is golden. If one keeps silent, one may never know whether the person is ignorant or whatever. If he opens his mouth, then there is no doubt left.

    I hope, you understand what I am hinting at.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Engrich… get you head examined and make a doctor rich…

    The doctor who makes sense of your nonsensical mumblings will win a nobel prize for deciphering the language of mad and psychos…

    Anonymous Reply:

    agree

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This a riposte to the RABID DOGS of FAKE NATIONALISM
    This is from Ayesha Jalal’s book “The Sole Spokesman”
    Quote: Anxious to forge a common nationalist front against the british , jinnah joined the congress and regularly attended its anual gatherings.
    it was jinnah who persuaded the league and the congress to agree upon a common scheme of reforms.
    At the league’s Lucknow conference jinnah confessed that he had always been a STAUNCH CONGRESSMAN AND HAD NO LOVE FOR SECTARIAN CRIES.
    UNQUOTE

    Some More
    Gandhi’s captured the congress in 1920 with the help of pro khilafat Muslims.
    By declaring support for Khilafat , gandhi secured the allegiance of an impressive array of Muslim Ulema . The fusion of religion and politics had left Jinnah cold in the wings.
    HE DENOUNCED GANDHI FOR CAUSING SCHISM , not only Hindus and Muslims , but between hindus and Hindus and Muslims and Muslims.

    Congress and Muslim polity in 1935-1940 , was exactly like BJP and MUSLIMS 2010.
    BJP goes on with the same mantra , as modi did recently “we do not make distinction between hindus and muslims , ALL SAME IN YOUR EYES.
    Is it really HOW ABOUT THE SKULL CAP , HOW ABOUT A MUSLIM HEAD OF BJP
    HOW ABOUT TOGADIA asking Muslims to give genetic evidence of Indian stock.
    Hypocrisy and opinion is one thing rational analysis is another.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jinnah was a diabolical, double speaking, devious person.

    In a speech in 1948, aimed at US, he said “Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy”…

    Democracy! Jinnah! Pakistan!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    All this has already been said much better by several bloggers before. Why repeat and even worse pretend u r saying something mindbowing.
    or r u shabbily still trying cover your ignorant statement that AYESHA JALAL was not pakistani. Pathetic.

    Like saying Swarzeneger is not Austrian, Vishy Anand is not Indian, Mark Tully is not English, Swaraj Paul is not Indian. Multiple identities we all have, smelly cockroach DR SHAN,just fade away. U r lying too much nowadays

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    simple Indian humour at its best-

    Baap- Agar Tu Phir Exam me fail hua to Mujhe Papa Mat Bolna

    After Exam

    Baap:-How Is Ur Result?

    Son:- Dimag ka Dahi mat kar Ramlal, tune Baap Hone ka Haq kho diya..!!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ARE JEWS A RACE
    Another pathetic lie of DR SHAN exposed. The idiot said on Zias blog that Jews are a separate race. Rabba merey, the moron comes out with one lie after another.
    It is well known that in US and Europe jews have loved to call themseves a race to come under Race relation act to prevent themselves better. But that is politics.

    EVEN A 8 YEAR OLD KNOWS THAT JEWS COME FROM DIFFERENT RACES AND NATIONALITIES. Ashkenazi jews are from Europe and Sephardic jews are from Middle east. You have jews from russia, india, africa.

    There r geneyic differences in various jews and some illnesses are more common insome groups. There was program on National geographic about that. Now watch as SHAN distracts, confuses, writes long meaningless posts !!! THIS IS GETTING TOO REPETIVE SHAN, your lies are giving me Bp. IMBECILE

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vote, Who thinks Balwinder has only one ******* , his mouth doubles as his a r s e.
    JEWS ARE A RACE , they all originate from Israel , son Of Abraham , then they left
    THE DIASPORA , and spread all over the world, the lost tribe ,have you ever heard of that . Different Jews are different TRIBES , but RACE non the less , SEMITIC RACE, who originally came from near Tigris and Euphrates

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Moron Dr Shan, have u seen a black jew from Ethiopia and a white jew from New York with ringlet curls, they look as different as a tamil from a korean. Learn to move away from the religios prpoganda of jews who want protection of RACE relations act of UK and those who want to legitimise the land grab in mid east called Israel.

    Your knowledge is superficial, go behind religious myth of “lost tribes”. Completel cockroach brain.
    http://www.judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/beingjewish.htm
    “JUDAISM IS NOT A RACE BECAUSE JEWS DO NOT SHARE ONE COMMON ANCESTRY”
    irritatingly stupid DR SHAN

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ethiopian jews are converts , they are not the original jewish people

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I was under the impression that Flashas are one of the lost tribe, as are the Jews who live in the North Eastern States of India. Though I am not 100%

  • Anonymous

    Friends,

    here is a poser for all our doctor firends and also others. Here is a desperate father on FB, who wants to know.

    Shivaprakash Nair is an MBA, working as Development Manager for 2Y group of companies.

    Two years back, to be precise , october 2009, my 6 year old daughter , Rishha lost all her hair from her body within a fortnight. The case was diagnosed to be Alopecia Totalis where the auto immune system does not allow the hair to grow. only remedy is found to be injections of steroids/ crotisone. However , the effect is temporary and will have side effects especially considering her age. Have tried homeo pathy and checked with various docs over the past 2 years but have not made even a slight progress towards her cure. Fankly, her treatment is now in a standstill and we dont know what further steps to take. Hence, Would request all my friends to let me know the contact details of anyone you know who had faced similar problem and got it cured ? i dont want names of docs and do trial / error experiments on my child. if you do not know anyone, can you just post this message on your wall so that your friends can further forward it till we find someone who has undergone similar problem and solved it without injections.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi-
    Read your response to what India should have done when our plane was hijacked. I sort of agree.

    What is your opinion about US using atom bomb to end WW 2? And your opinion on US invading “terrorist countries”?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb,
    I believe in using force where/when it is needed. However, I do not believe in using tools like nuclear bomb, that scorches the earth, leave damaging residue affecting generations.
    I believe dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a wrong and immoral decision. I do not support the Japanese cause in the war; but I believe there were other ways of stopping the war. Even if they had to use the nukes, they should not have used it on two cities; one would have been enough.

    Regarding the invasion of terrorist sates — well, I like the approach they used in targeting and killing Al awlaki..I am for drones and targeted assassinations, not a wholesale attack on a country.

    In that light, I hope US deepens its drone attack in Pakistan rather than a wholesale invasion.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    To All and Mr Sharma

    Please bar Engrich from this blog ..he is RamAutar under a different name. He drove away the participators in Zia’s blog (there used to be 800-900 opinions, now it is around 40-50 only, with half of it still from Engrich vomiting about Jews and Brahmins).

    This blog will go Zia’ way if Engrich is not banned.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Completely agree with shoeb.
    Dear Vinodji
    ………DEAR VINODJI
    your blog your choice
    ……Pl you ban engrich alias tajender aka ramavtar

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    How can Vinodji ban this fake, when two great bloggers, Fake Ravi and Manohar_T are defending him?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pathetic sour grapes of a RSS Hindu Fundo

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Some of the times, you really surprise me.

    Calling me a great blogger is one such instance. I humbly accept the compliment.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This blog is currently under attack from a pak-autar, a mlechha and there promoter a dirty self-appointed defender of the most vile. Please avoid contact.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shoeb

    You wrote
    “Manohar, Just for an argument sake; if there is solid proof (titles/land records) that these mosques were built on temple land, and if some of these mosques are not active; what should be the problem in reverting these non-active mosques that are built on temple land (there have to be irrefutable proof)”

    1) Good that you use the word – If

    2) Solid Proof? – If they have it (otherwise then they should shut -up) , then they should have approached the courts long ago in the jurisdiction concerned for each of the mosques. That the fact they have not, shows there is no proof, ,just dubious claims or manufactured evidence and want the Muslim community to the generous to the fault and hand over these places peacefully. Ask the RSS/VHP, as to why haven’t they filed suits in the courts? In case of Babri Masjid title suit case – they had said they would not accept the verdict it it went against them.

    Where is the “solid” proof even in the case of Babri Masjid? They tried to buttress their case by claiming that it is the belief of Hindus (actually Hindutvawadis) that Ram was born on the same spot – no proof, just belief. Moreover, Buddhists claim that below the supposed Ram temple (under the Babri Masjid) was built after destroying a Buddhist temple.

    Because they do not have solid proof – they want the parliament to pass a law so that there claims can have a legal backing.

    How far back in time can we keep going to undo the supposed or real historical “wrongs”?

    In 2003, the RSS/VHP threatened the Muslims – hand over the entire Barbri Masjid land or we will claim thousands more mosques.

    On a larger note, the rightful place of Ram or of any God is in one’s heart and not in some “grand temples”.

    The Supreme Court has already expressed its displeasure about the convoluted decision of the Allahabad High Court.

    The fact, this is part of the larger game plans of the RSS propaganda via falsehoods, lies and untruths. Rewriting history to suit their sinister agenda is one.

    3) I have no idea as how many of these mosques are non-active or active, but that is not the point at all.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    US-born radical Islamist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, a key al-Qaeda leader, has been killed in Yemen, the country’s defence ministry said.

    I am glad.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Justice at last

    India abuse: Scores guilty of Dalit rape and torture

    A court in India has convicted 269 police and forest officials of torturing and abusing more than 100 low-caste tribespeople in a 1992 raid.

    Officials went to the village of Vachathi in southern Tamil Nadu state looking for smuggled sandalwood.

    Over two days, 18 women were raped, at least 100 Dalits (former untouchables) abused and homes and cattle looted.

    Seventeen officials were found guilty of rape and the rest were convicted of “atrocities against Dalits”.

    Source the BBC

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ravi
    So whats your point ? You look for news of any crimes committed and if the victim is dalit post it here ? I have shown you statistically that incidence of rape on dalit is in same percentage of their population as the incidense of rape on non-dalits. This was after you lied about rapes of dalits in UP with cooked up numbers.

    Do we have a news item like Brahmin girl raped , or kshatriya girl raped ?
    Why is the caste important only when the victim is a so called dalit ?
    What about of the caste of the perpetrators ? How many of them were dalit ?
    Does it even matter when the courts and the judicial system punishes people irrespective of their caste ? Do we have news item like ‘A dalit caught stealing’ or ‘a dalit caught cheating or a dalit charged with murder ?

    Would that not be a pathetic way of reporting news ?

    Why are you so interested in the caste of the victim , only when the victim is dalit ?
    Is that just because it fits into your anti-India, anti-Hindu propoganda here ?
    You certainly are more sick and dirty than I thought.

    The fact that the perpetrators of the crime were not protected but prosecuted and punished by the state is the most important part of the news. If the perpetrators were protected just because the victims were dalit then it would be a outrageous news.

    If you want to speak against state sponsored criminality and state ideology inspired discrimination , then talk about Pakistan that you often defend here where the state itself is the criminal and promotes criminality and oppression through constitutional methods. Where the entire state is a criminal.

    There is hardly any difference between the dirty pakistani Ram avatar , who searches the internet for anti-India, anti-Hindu stuff and posts it here and you.

    The more you post such stuff , the more you show your true colors and prove that every word that I and many others have used to define you and your motivations is correct. You deserve every bit of the scorn and derision that is heaped on you.

    Please keep proving me correct.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    There is no doubt and never ever has been about you being correct. Einstien is more likely to be wrong, than you.

    Here are some other facts for you to chew on.

    1. You have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that I am a liar.

    2. You know that I sympathise with the Jihadi causes and donate money to Hafiz Saeed.

    3. You also know that I am a fully paid ISI agent, masquerading here as Ravi, My real name is Ramautarudeen Sapearekibeen Shenoyudbaig Rajivullah. I am not an Indian, I am an Arab – a direct decendant of Prophet Mohd’s Nine yr old bride, from her mothers side.

    How do you imagine, I will be able to fool someone like you, who is so incredibly perceptive and a know it all.

    I am sure some one will soon oblige you and asnswer your questions and put you out of your misery. Though a bullet right between the eyes would probably be more effective.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now that you have revealed your lineage going back to the prophet himself, Manohar-T will prostrate before you or in your direction (west). Dhanya ho, Manohar!

    Ravi Reply:

    Not before you get your head out of the groin of Mr Bhagwat, not sure what it is doing there. But one can guess from the expression upon his face.

    Anonymous Reply:

    You should worry about yourself, you have been caught with your pants down in defence of Modi and then you tried to find a fig leaf to hide your embarrassment.

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi
    So whats your point ? You look for news of any crimes committed and if the victim is dalit post it here ? I have shown you statistically that incidence of rape on dalit is in same percentage of their population as the incidense of rape on non-dalits.

    Do we have a news item like Brahmin girl raped , or kshatriya girl raped ?
    Why is the caste important only when the victim is a so called dalit ?
    What about of the caste of the perpetrators ? How many of them were dalit ?
    Does it even matter when the courts and the judicial system punishes people irrespective of their caste ? Do we have news item like ‘A dalit caught stealing’ or ‘a dalit caught cheating or a dalit charged with murder ?

    Would that not be a pathetic way of reporting news ?

    Why are you so interested in the caste of the victim , only when the victim is dalit ?
    Is that just because it fits into your anti-India, anti-Hindu propoganda here ?
    You certainly are more sick and dirty than I thought.

    The fact that the perpetrators of the crime were not protected but prosecuted and punished by the state is the most important part of the news. If the perpetrators were protected just because the victims were dalit then it would be a outrageous news.

    If you want to speak against state sponsored criminality and state ideology inspired discrimination , then talk about Pakistan that you often defend here where the state itself is the criminal and promotes criminality and oppression through constitutional methods. Where the entire state is a criminal.

    There is hardly any difference between the dirty pakistani Ram avatar , who searches the internet for anti-India, anti-Hindu stuff and posts it here and you.

    The more you post such stuff , the more you show your true colors and prove that every word that I and many others have used to define you and your motivations is correct. You deserve every scorn and derision that is heaped on you.

    Please keep doing so and proving me right.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    a Pakiatni american. Samir Khan, 24 yr old, propaganda chief for Awlaki, was also killed in the raid..
    Samir Khan apparently had jehadi blogs propagating awalki’s violent message…
    He is connected with some sh–tty org in Pak called Tanzil-e-Islam (???)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Please send your condolenses on Pakistani born criminal Samir Khan’s end to the dirty pak peddler suffering from dalit-rape syndrome.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    who will then pass it on to the ISI, his paymasters.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~~ :) :) ~~ VIJAY KUMAR KA DOSTON KO SALAAM ~~~ :) :) ~~~~~
    ——————————————————————————————————————

    Well was off blogging as was caught up in an intercity assignment. But… I missed this blog !! Thanks to all the friends who remebered me… especially Gopi, Mohan and Sanjay who mentioned my name here.

    Just here for a short take… on my old Pal Ravi

    O Ravi Bhaiya… the return of T U R D Tajendar in the new form of Engrich seems to have given you Viagra.

    Lagda hai Engrich di bhasha vichon
    T U R D Tajendar chattiyan maare,
    Sialkoti Ravi hun rape rape karre ishare’

    ——————————————————

    Ravi you old f a r t your nemisis is back again
    All your rape fantasies are going down the drain

    An ISI fundoo you have become
    Just watch out, drones over your head,
    May anytime come ….

    And at least on this blog
    be prepared to live the life of a dog !!

    Hahaha hAA HA !!

    Just needed this shot of humour to get my head rocking again…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Welcome back Vijay

    I rather be killed by you than shagged by Julia Roberts.

    But then that is me.

    I missed you as much as I missed a hole in my head.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ode to my self-proclaiming nemesis Vijay

    चातियाँ मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, संघियाँ ने कीते सवाल
    होर मनोहर ने बड़ी ज़ोरदार, कस कस के दो थ्प्पर्ड मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, विच्र्ड़े दुश्मन वापिस पधारे
    ब्लोग विच प्या ज़रा जया सोडा, हुन फेर फटटन गे फुहारे

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ravi-

    cn yu blog in English as a gesture to people who do not know Hindi

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    you must be really a ’seedha aadmi’. Can’t you see that he is dropping visible hints that he is not a Pakistani and is as Indian as you and me.This is his way of showing ‘proof’ of his Indianness!

    Ravi Reply:

    You are a proper runt. You think every one is like you. Tighten your lungoat, your fundaments are limping out.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy it was meant for Vijay and Vijay only. He got the message.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, T U R D Tajendar and Engrich had a threesome
    Ravi definately thought, T U R D looked winsome

    Engrich u too are ISI fundoo, Ravi cooed
    Rest of the blogmates– just booed :)

    Give me my two ranis, Engrich and Tajendar
    Ravi, cried and cried
    But Balwinder gave him a kick
    And ravi’s brain just died !!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    CLASSIC LINE.

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    Worth dorahing

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dole holder Ravi had a plan,
    How to fool the UK government
    And get some extra jam

    I’ll work for the ISI, Ravi planned
    Truth, morality and India
    Let it be Damned

    He joined T U R D Tajendar
    roped in Engrich
    The plan was to spread fundmantalism
    And somehow get rich !

    On the internet,
    they bumped into VijayKumar
    who needed a story plot
    The THREE FUNDOOS,
    The book is now called !!
    :) :) Ha ha ha

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Great.
    Welcome back Vijay. Blog was being over run by psuedos and Turds. next week onwards, i will have more access/ time for blog. will discuss some interesting points.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Beware pseudo turds, the real one is coming back next week.

    Meanwhile busy your selves with, watching your moustache grow.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Not worth replying. But you got the hint alright.

    Ravi Reply:

    Your’s was’nt worth replying, mine too was a mere hint of the welcome that awaits you if you start with pseudo **** type of language.

    I will return fire. Guarenteed.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Welcome. enough of our mask, which is wearing thin now by everyday.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Pankaj

    Yes I am back ! Like ur posting on Manto. I had read his stories— the translated ones in college hostel. One in Khushwatn SIngh’s collection and another transaltion by I hink K A Abbas…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Viju

    Great to know u r OK. Was worried about you!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Kumar,
    glad that you are back with a bang.

    For the last two days, fake Ravi and Tajender T.urd have been running riot with their 5000 rape stories, with able suppost and also solid defence by Manohar_T, who has displaced Prabhat and Mahesh as the chief defenders of pseudo secularism and fake democratic rights.

    your post is a fitting reposte to these fundoos.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    And you have been hemmed in with your Hindu Fundo stories.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    What about a poem on fake rape stories propogated by people who enact out their own fantasies thru these stories?

    I think the sorry spectacle of the UPA destroying itself thru chdmabaran and Pranab pulling waxch other’s chairs too reminds us of MOrarji desai, CHaran SIngh and Jagjivan ram fighting for one Kursi !! How history repeats itself !

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    Well I was moving around Himachal. The Photon connection was not e3xactly zipping. And this new blog format… is not exactly user friendly, moving in a vehicle… and scrolling up and down.

    But yes it was nice to read ur postings.

    PS Hve the rains stopped in Kerala? What are the temperature conditions like?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Welcome back and ncie to know that everything is fine.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thx MOhan !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thx Mohan for your contribution on Shiv Sena. I read it today and felt that the Sena has done a lot of damage to spread regional feelings. Did not know that it was supported by the COngress once…

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ MOhan

    Ur Oncern was heartening! Even though we just interact thru the net.. I know I have good friends….

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pakistani definition : Please note that the word can be used to define anyone who is a fraud, a criminal, a thug and deceitful. Just as USA now claims to be finding out. Its someone who finds excuses for the entity born out of Jinnah’s communal hate and has gone on to commit genocide on minorities and then sanctified its criminal conduct in the constitution.

    You don’t have to be a Pakistani passport holder to be awarded that honor.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    well, looks like chinese are abandoning paks too. There was a news in the WSJ today taht

    ……well, it looks like chinese is dropping them too. Todays WSJ reports that the Chinese mining co China Kigho is backing offa @19 billion minig project citing safety of its employees… this is after Gilani toasted the chinese friendship “higher than the mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey ”

    (man, they know how to suck!)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well evil ultimately self-destructs.
    Thats a truth of nature and Pak is no exception.

    Regarding China-Pak relations, China looks upon Pak as a cheap dog on Chinese leash to bark at India, just like some Pakistanis do here.
    China is going to use this cheap dog in a way that benefits it.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    WORLD PUNJABI ORG”””””””’

    Guest of Indian embassy this week and got taken to the annual dinner of this org- my first time. At Marriot Grosvenor Square.

    Multi millionaire Avtar Lit of Sunrise radio got ‘The jewel of Punjab award’- slightly odd character. In the midst of it all I thought of dear old Vijay and Balwinder praaji- our resident Punjabis.

    It was heart warming to see the strength of the Indian community in general and Punjabi community in particular. Lord Dholakia on stage. He made a brilliant speech as usual- full of swaabhimaan.Gently he reminded everyone of the UK riots in which there were NO INDIANS.

    Andrew Mitchell, Minister for International development was full of praise for the Indian community. Which brings me to the next point- STOP FIGHTING BLOGGERS.

    If this blog descends into Zia’s blog’s chaos- with ravi and ramavtar-egerich hurling filth at hindu gods and some others doing the same on Islam, then I am out off here. Nice knowing you all.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    PS- VINOD SHARMA, you know what happened to Zia’s blog. You know what to do.

    pps- balwinder, you are right that Jews can come from all races- the black jews are treated badly in Israel. This also explains why certain metabolic diseases like Tay Sachs are common in Ashkenazi jews and not so much in Sephardic ones

    Goodbye for now

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    dr Mishra

    Many people may not know that there was a large Sephardic Jewish community in Kerala around the town of Kochi and Paravur. At one time this population ran into lakhs, burt now there is only 100 or so left. Most of them migrated to Israel.
    There is a magnificent Synagogue even today in Kochi (Mattanchery). This synagogue is a famous tourist spot.
    I myself had a Jewish classmate for my Engineering Program, he migrated to Israel.
    Dr Sita (yes, the name of Lord Rama’s dharam patni) Henry, ex professor/principal of Calicut Medical College was a “white” Jew. Dr Austin, a Jewish gentleman, represented Kochi parliamentary constituency for a long time.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    very good, informative post. The Jews who had taken refuge in India for centuries and like the Parsees, who too had taken refuge in India, have been treated well by the local people, in Kerala and Maharashtra/Gujarat respectively. While the jews were fortunate to have a country as their homeland, the Parsees are not so fortunate. I also doubt very much they would migrate even if they had a homeland in Iran.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy-

    You are right–I do not thnik Parsees would migrate. This is their land. Unlike others, they did not plunder; made it better. Adorned it with jewels like IISc, TIFR, and Air India (which Nehru destroyed afterwards!)

    engrich Reply:

    only brhmns and jews plunder where ever they go.all others are peaceful people.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    You got it wrong – Nehru did not destroy Air India . In fact in spite of policies differences with J R D Tata, he was made the chairman at the time of nationalisation in 1953 and held that post right up to 1977/78, when Morarji Desai as the PM, removed him unceremoniously. No courtesies, no phone call, nothing. He just sent his replacement to Bombay – Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P C Lal (poor fellow. he was caught in an unsavoury situtation) with letter that Tata was being replaced by him.

    Until 1977/78, Air India was nation’s pride and envy of the world.

    engrich Reply:

    jews had no land hence they were surviving on their mental capacities.but they have evil side as well they secret instigators of all mascares and wars in last 300 years.they hide among the masses like brhmns and do bad work.

    original name of netanyahu is attalla abdulrehman shoul,a sudani jew hiding among muslims with muslim name.

    Ravi Reply:

    Self appointed lay preacher speaks with pseudo authority of a nincompoop.

    Ravi has never said anything anti about Hindu gods. However he has on a number of occasions pointed the total absence of logic in your pronouncements.

    A Dr you may be, Pontiff you certainly are not.

    You wish to reduce this blog to a self-congratulating club for Hindu Fundo’s.

    Think again.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It has been a tradition that all foreign head of state visit Rajghat…it was only Saudi king who refused to do that.
    I may not consider Gandhi god or Prophet Mohammad but that doesn’t mean I can not see insult to India by Saudi king.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now, one has to teach something very elementary to RajeevS, by way of an example.

    Suppose, a guest is invited to a party, where traditionally non-vegetarian food is main fare. This guest, who it turns out is a vegetarian, would refuse to eat the non-veg stuff – are the hosts supposed to take offence?

    You need to clear very thick cobwebs that have got lodged in your brain for clearheaded thinking and responses. As they say – cleanliness is next to godliness. Quick get some cleaner to do the job, before you let out more balderdash.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No Saudi King has ever laid a wreath at the Cenotaph either. All other dignitaries do.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    I would say it is a bad host; he should have had only vegetarian food if he knew the guest was vegetarian..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Exactly, we would have been bad hosts by not knowing what the King would like to do or what he would not like to. Moreover, it did not matter to our Government. They know how diplomacy works.

    Probably, someone somewhere (media or ….) made note that the visit to the Rajghat was not part of the functions to be attended by the King and decided it will be sensational news ( a scoop or whatever) and probably blew it out of proportions.

  • Anonymous

    Now that Tajender is back, our Ravi has started Turr-Turr like a Islamic frog…Manohar as usual ignorant is playing as ravi’s sidekick.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Just because you are someone’s sidekick (and I don’t care whose), you assume it applies to others.

    Morons anyone?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    If you think I am someone’s sidekick then you must be high on drugs…I never defend anyone..I have infact defended Shan many times when he was cornered for abuses..I believe in justice..If a moron like you need my protection, I’ll provide you.

    But you being a corrupt congressi can never behave like normal..Now go and take care of your ***** ravi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I may be high on drugs, what is it you?

    Ho, ho, ho….:”I never defend anyone” How true? Because anything or anyone you choose turns out to be indefensible. So how can you?

    I will certainly “consider” you offer of protection. Happy?

    You repeated the last para some place else. Why? Ran out of vocabulary for your rants?

    Ravi Reply:

    But you have been purr purring in Shenoy’s lap for a very long time.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,
    You have a history of leaning on others..You do it with Shan, Manohar, Prabhat and whosoever comes on this forum…You are just like pakistan..a ***** willing to sleep with anyone for protection. You hide behind idiots like Manohar because you are exposed again and again by almost everyone.
    Manohar being corrupt moron has no other choice because he is allergic to word hindu..He thinks anyone opposing congress has to be a hindutvavadi…To me he is basically BIN-Paindi ka lota…A total a$$hole..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I really liked Manohar’s big lecture to hindus that God exists in heart…I’d appreciate if he can preach same to Islamic fundoos who have converted many temples to mosque..One of them being Kaaba itself.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Typical response by the likes of you and there are a few on this blog.

    Before anyone tells/advises your heroes and Hindus (Hindutvawadis actually and there is a clear distinction between the two), you want others to be told/advised first

    This similar to pathetic defence/justification repeated ad nauseam for ages in other matters – 1) before blaming Modi for 2002, blame Rajiv Gandhi first for 1984 2) before blaming Hindutvawadis for anything, blame Muslims/Christians first for something.

    Keep such your advise to yourself or give to your gullible fellow travellers.

    Get this into your head. I am no one’s preacher or keeper. You may be one and I don’t give a damn.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) before blaming Rajiv Gandhi for 1984, blame Modi first for 2002
    2) before blaming agrressive muslims for anything, blame hindus first for something.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks for letting us know that you can parrot other people’s lines (order does not matter). Keep it up.

  • Anonymous

    It looks like that there is a panic among many of the bloggers, with the advent of Engrich or whoever he may be and there are constant requests to Vinodji to ban him. Probably, his posts are causing extreme discomfort to these bloggers and who probably do not know how to counter or demolish his arguments (I am guessing). Wonder why they feel so threatened by his presence?

    Earlier, I had suggested (and I am not preaching), is to simply ignore his posts (as I do), then probably he would stop posting.

    As I understand, this blog now is under constant moderation, if he goes overboard the moderator would step-in. So why the panic?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    I think the issue is the quantity of garbage. Engrich just does a cut and paste of some nonsensical ISI propoganda, which he probably does not understand as a low level operative. But it spoils the mood of the blog.

    In case somebody keeps throwing garbage inside your house time and again… would you not want the person ejected out?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sanjay

    I know, you know better than that.

    Please do not stoop into the gutter.

    We already have quite a few cockroaches here, and do not need another one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    I believe the issue is his (Tajender/Ram Avtar and whatever is this new incarnation) recycling of the same garbage plucked from Rupeenews, DalitVoice etc with Jews and Brahmins behind everything, be it Mogul rule or 9/11 or 11/26 or Jinnah or Gandhi or Doha Trade Round or women’s vote in KSA. . Zia Haq’s blog used to be very active with good points/counterpoints, I was a regular there; but many backed out. I have not visited that blog in months now.

    Vinod Sharma had blocked him out under the old blog format; but looks like he has come back under the new format.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi and Sanjay

    Who decides how much quantity of garbage is not acceptable? It does not matter as to the origin of that garbage. We, our gods and our icons are not so weak to fall on account one man’s ramblings.

    BTW, some of the posts from some of the other members here are disgusting and offensive too. Should we ban them too?

    Leave it to Vinod Sharma and the HT people to decide.

    If you ban him under his present alias, he will come back under a different alias. The previous ban on him does not seem to have worked, he is still around. How many times will you ban him?

    I am against all forms of bans. Just ignore him, do not respond to him. He will probably just wither away.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Dear Manohar
    Sorry having said goodbye, I feel compelled to come back and say a few things.

    As many have said here before, the actions of the Saudi royals can be unfriendly and backward, not only in India but even here in the UK. We should be proud that we do not behave like that when we go out.So at best we can grit our teeth and ignore them- lakhs ? of Indians work in the KSA and these remittances are important.

    Sorry, the analogy of a guest not eating non veg food just did not work. Muslims and Jews would not eat pork and I would never eat non veg- this is completely natural for us. However, for the Saudis to not visit Rajghat is boorish.

    Here in UK, the best private Saudi school was still teaching that Jews and kaffirs were pigs as recent as 2009 till caught by a sting operation. My Pakistani friend who went on a haj recently came back boiling with rage at the disciminatory attitudes of MOST saudis he met- whether at the airport or even at 5 star hotels when he went travelling after haj, even from the receptionists.

    My private patients from Saudi often display a contemptuous disregard for the evils of Wahabism that they willingly export around the world

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    and dont take this personal, Manohar, but maybe you also need to follow your own advice and ignore Rajeev. I think both of you have good contributions, but now it is becoming a tu tu main main.
    Peace

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I do follow my own advice, I do not on start any fire to score brownie points. If you notice, I normally do not even jump onto most of the discussions – which I find them inane and mostly bordering on personal attacks. Go through blogs and see what I am saying. I have no problems with the likes of yourself, Gopi, Ashish, Mohan, Ravi, Balwinder, Vijay – all being very civil in their discourse.

    1) Rajeev picked up a sentence out of context from my reply to Shoeb and proceed to be sarcastic and throw barbs at me. If anyone does that to me, he should be prepared to receive return fire – a more lethal one.

    2) He called me a sidekick, he thought he was being too clever by half. If he or anyone does that, again be prepared to get a mighty kick in return.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I don’t care for Corrupts like you..so go ahead and talk all BS..Because ultimately you and Ravi are all about muslim appeasement…and justifying all their moronic deeds.

    You are a sidekick of Jehadi Ravi…There is no doubt.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Maan naa maan, tu meraa mehmaan.

    Who the hell had asked you whether you care for me or not and who the hell asked you to announce it to the world?

    Who cares whether you have doubts or otherwise. Be happy with you sureties, I do not give a damn. Now go take a walk.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr. Mishra

    We do not need a certificate from Saudi King or that matter anyone else as to the greatness and the relevance of Mahatma Gandhi. He may have his reasons (personal, religious or otherwise). Let us give him that option, we are not intolerant or bigots to take offence. There must be many important public figures in India, who would be loathed to go to the Rajghat, they may do so just to be on the “right” side. Let us leave at that. You may think it is boorish, fine. To me, it is no big deal. I still believe my example of non-veg food is very apt to drive home the point.

    I was in the Gulf for 9 years, I have heard enough of uncomplimentary accounts of the life in Saudi Arabia. Why should be like them? Is it hallmark of a society to ape only the negatives from other societies?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    Surely, the point being made here has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with either the King of Saudi Arabia, or Mahatma Gandhi.

    The R E A L point is to further the right wing Hinduatva agenda of othering Indian Muslims.

    As I have mentioned before, the King of Saudi Arabia has never ever laid a wreath at the Cenotaph. No one makes anything of it. Most Governments know this in advance and do not embarrass him by inviting/expecting him to do that. Much in the same way, as PORK is not on the banqueting menu when he is the guest. That is pure good manners.

    Dr Mishra was making, not for the first time, a completely Islamophobic point. He has a political axe to grind, and grind he does.

    He is very quick to attribute anti Hindu meaning to my inane writings and always forgets that he and his friends are inherently islamophobic.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I too can see who is grinding which axe, hence my interventions are limited. I see no need to give importance to inanities.

    Anonymous Reply:

    IThe moron king (who has given voting rights to women to vote in 2015, lashed the woman driver for the offece of driving) should not have been invited by India Govt if they knew he would not visit Rajghat.

    But as long aas we are poor and our people have to be in Saudi arabia for a living, we will have to suffer these indignities.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    As I said, there are enough negatives there. The last heard, the King has pardoned the lady and there will be no lashes.

    Generally, people go where they can get best price for their talent.

    If we go by your plaint, then there will be hardly any diplomatic visits across the world. Indian leaders may not be welcome in many countries too.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    That lady was sentenced to get 15 lashes for driving
    but the King pardoned her. She was not given the lashings.

    engrich Reply:

    doctor before writing u must study the thing well.ruler of saudi arabia is wahabi.and wahabi dont go to any grave.tghey were about to demolish the grave of prophet mohammed.it is haram.jews are not kafir .marriage with their daughters is halal.christain and jews are like cousins.

    regarding rajghat ,if official diginatary dont go ,nobody will ever go there.this is statement of watchman of the site.

    dalit dont consider him as father of their nation,so christian and muslim and backward.brhmn killed him as street dog and distributed the sweet all over india.every year even now they distribute sweet.pls tell me which nation he is father.
    pls give me reference of sting operation.in christain schools also they dont allow non christians till 10th standard.in vidyabharti rss run school situation is same.

    regarding haj his observation may be right.pakistanis are also too naughty.most of them pray that,ae allah custom wallon kee aankh mein dhool jhoonk,mera saman pakda na jae.every illegal and wrong work they do.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    why not f.u.ck yr father

    engrich Reply:

    dont forget that no indian including hindus want to come back.ther get salry 5 times of india and every thing is subsdized.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy

    You responded in another thread below

    “Modi had sent a list of 3 ex-chief justices to the governor, none of whom the governor liked.

    He had called the opposition leader for consultation and consensus, but the LOP abstained from attending any of these meetings.

    The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional. She appointed Desai because Desai was very much liked by Teesta Setalvad. He has also the reputation of being a sympathiser of some of the virulently anti-Modi NGOs, which is why his appointment, ultra-virus as it is, is being opposed by Modi government.

    The fact that the MMS government is contemplating recall of the Lokayukta unofficially itself is proof that Modi is right in his constitutional position. ”

    —————-

    I knew you could not have done better than this. Full of lies, falsehoods, untruths (take you pick), but I will give you a chance.

    1) “The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional”

    Will you care to enlighten the rest, as to under which Government Rules and Laws or the Indian Penal Code, the Governor is not entitled to consult the Attorney General or for that matter anyone else? Or is there a law enacted by Modi for the Governor of Gujarat? “Thou shalt not consult the Attorney General or anyone else”

    2) You do not even know the name of the person who has been appointed. For your information – it Justice R A Mehta not some Mr. Desai. If you want spread canards and lies, try and make them more convincing, but then I must be expecting too much from you..

    Also the cat is out of the bag – Teesta Setvalvad liked the appointment and Justice Mehta is sympathiser of some anti-Modi NGOs. Since when Teesta Setalvad has become so powerful and influential that her opinion is sought, before someone is appointed. Does being sympathiser of anti-Modi NGOs disqualify the person from being appointed Lokayukta? Can you quote the relevant Government Rules and Laws or the Indian Penal Code or the Gujarat Lokayukta Act, 1986 is support of your assertion.

    These three points are sufficient for me to throw your entire defence of Modi out of the window. Now I have to wait and see how many of your supposed “fans and chelas” come to your rescue.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mnaohar_T,

    from your above posts, it is clear that your knowledge about the way the constitution works in our country, is near about zero. Still, I will try to shine some light on your ignorance:

    I mentioned the name of the Lokayukta appintee as Desai instead of Mehta purely inadvertantly.

    About the governor’s powers to consult the attorney general of India, the state advocate general has argued in the HC that it was unconstitutional.

    Last year, the Modi government had given a written undertaking in the high court that the process of appointment of Lokayukta was underway.

    The governor herself admits that constitutionally as well as by conventions, the governor acts as per the advice of the council of ministers. And I quote the governor:

    “Although it is true that generally the Governor acts as per the aid and advice of the Council of Ministers headed by the Chief Minister, there might be a circumstance, where Governor could not remain mute spectator to the happenings in the state and is compelled to use discretion,”

    “The delays in appointment are because of the opposition and not because of us. They have been avoiding consultations on the appointment of Lokayukta,’’ government spokesman, Jaynarayan Vyas said.

    The governor has wrongly appropriated the function of the duly elected state government which is a major subversion of the Constitution. Article 163 of the Constitution is over and above Section 3 of the Lokayukta Act, 1986. The provision of any Act does not have a supremacy over provisions in the Constitution of India. According to Article 163 of the Constitution, the governor has to work on the aid and advice of the Council of Ministers.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I made no request to you to confirm what I said above. I know what i have written.

    Inadvertently, mute spectator, generally, …………….

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Earlier there was a discussion of whether Modi should have worn the cap offered to
    him or not. The person who offered him this cap later in any interview said that
    Modi had insulted Islam by not wearing the cap. Does the prestige if Islam
    lie in a mere skull cap ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan
    It was a profile in courage that Modi did not wear the skull cap. It shows the man will not do something just for doing it, however, whatever way the press portrays.

    Press should have respected that, instead of treating it like some criminal act or violating constitution.
    And all these coming from the same groups who will not allow govt to modify the syllabus of Madrasas, or will not support Visnavi to head Deoband..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar,

    Few days back you had said that Modi should appoligize for Gujarat riots as
    asking for forgiveness is divine. And now you have compared Saudi Kings
    refusal to visit Rajghat with a vegeterian gueast. In both instances you have compared the action of a leader with an individual. Any leader in private can
    do anything he wants but when he is in public he will act differently. If Modi
    had appoligized for the riots everyone would have said that he is admited his fault.
    And any leader visitng another nation should respect her traditions, sacred places etc. Recently before going to Bangladesh our PM – a strick vegeterian – said that
    he will try Hilsa a non veg traditional dish of Bangladesh .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Yes, I did say that with reasons thereof. Did I blast him for not doing so? No, Sir. Did I call him names? No, Sir. Only expressed what in my view would be the consequences either way.

    I do not see any connection between Modi’s apology that never was and Saudi King’s refusal to go to Rajghat. Can you connect the dots? BTW, see my reply to Dr. Mishra below.

    Again, what has Saudi King’s refusal has anything to do with our Prime Minister’s desire to partake sea food in Bangladesh, in spite of being a vegetarian? Again the connect dots please.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    The connection I was trying to make was that you were comparing
    a leader to a common individual. If a common person seeks sincere forgiveness for his mistakes/crimes that can be classified as divine but if a leader asks for forgiveness a different
    conclusion will be drawn and he will be called a criminal – he is already being called as such by many people – . Similary you were comparing Saudi King to a a guest in our house – a common individual – . Leaders and common man have a different role in a
    society.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sorry Mohan, I do not buy this argument of yours.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    And regarding our PM trying their sea food IMO he was showing
    the respect for their traditional food which King of Saudi did not
    by refusing to visit a place which most of dignitaries do when
    they visit India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I keep saying, why do you expect the Saudi King to be like our Prime Minister – each one has his own sensibilities? Let us accept the fact that our Prime Minister is more humane. The action of one has nothing to with the action of the other.

    As Shan has correctly pointed out their form of Islam only permits them to bow only before God – you may or may not agree with it. He most likely does not even know where his father – the founder of Saud dynasty – and his brothers, who were kings too are buried – always in unmarked graves out in the desert.

    As Shan again said, if approached he probably would donate millions of dollars to an organisation named after Gandhi set up for whatever purpose.

    The fact is that most of the other dignitaries choose to visit Rajghat (that is their individual’s choice) has no relevance to the action of the King.

    Here is something to think about – I suspect Gandhi himself would be appalled to know that we have constructed a samadhi in his honour.

    AshishC Reply:

    यष्मिन देशे यदाचारः

    Gandhi would be appalled at many things in today’s India; but, that is not germane to the issue.
    No one was asking him to go and prostate himself at the Samadhi (as an aside, I have lived in Delhi, almost 35 years now, and am yet to see Rajghat). He would have known that it is the done thing to visit the Samadhi, he would have done so, to please his hosts, signed the visitors’ book and be gone.
    If someday I am the President of India (see, I do not want a tough job!), and am visiting Saudi Arabia, should I insist that the King should bathe himself in Ganga Jal before shaking hands with me?
    Whether the King can afford to throw millions of dollars at us, is again immaterial.
    The king chose to be constrained within the straitjackets of his religion; he forgot his other identities- that being a human being, an ambassador for his country, a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    Good points, but not good enough. Largely because they are not logical.

    One would not expect the Pope to visit the Rajghat either.

    Many other heads of state, visit the Rajghat not because of any concern for state protocol, but because of their personal love for the Mahatma.

    Did the Saudi Royal go to the Taj Mahal. I will take a bet that he did not. Yet others have.

    Besides being the King the Saudi Royal is the head of Islam and the keeper of its tradition.

    He did attend the 26th January Parade. So any slighting/insult we feel is contrived and was not intended by our guest.

    I have mentioned before, that when he visited Britain, he did not go to the Cenotaph, to which a lot of the other heads of state do go.

    I think all this noise, is little more than the Hindu Right seeing an opportunity to create a Political fuss over absolutely nothing.

    Yet another anti Muslim agitation to add to the drip drip strategy of othering.

    Addendum: The Saudi King did not go the samadhi of Mahatma, to compensate, we are sending Dr Mishra to the Andaman Prison.

    AshishC Reply:

    Hi Ravi,
    please read my resp to Manohar above.
    A state visit is about atmospherics. Should only the host worry about it? Since the Saudi King was visiting, he obviously felt his country would gain from him being personally here. I still think he -even if not buttressing- did not do anything to dispel the stereotypes.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I am sorry I do not buy it.

    He did attend the 26th January Parade. So what if he did not go to the Rajghat.

    Have we as a nation reached such level of inferiority complex that we look for such gestures.

    As I said this storm is fomented only by the Hindu Right Jesters , for their own local agenda.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Again very very poor knowledge of wahabi islam. You can pat on by back , gently unruggle my hair in jest , BUT YOU CANNOT SQUEEZE MY BALLS. To saudi wahabis visiting samadhi is just such an act . It is against the basic tenets of their beleif . Some of their adherents recently THRASHED(yes you are reading it correct) the grave in saudi, of guess who ……
    yes the one referred to as PBUH, because the SHIAS of iran were using it as a shrine, and WAILING

    Anonymous Reply:

    Done thing. Huh!
    ————

    “The king chose to be constrained within the straitjackets of his religion; he forgot his other identities- that being a human being, an ambassador for his country, a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on”.

    If he has forgotten his other identities, what can anyone do about it? That is way it is. No big deal, as I see it. We are not his keepers.
    ———-
    “a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on”.

    If you think so, that would be a mistake. You cannot put labels on others or judge them merely by association (whatever the link standard). Did not expect this line of reasoning from you.

    I can open Pandora’s box (I will not, even if you insist), if we take this line of argument further. I hope you know what I am talking about.

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Look, let me make it plain that I care two hoots about visiting Rajghat; I have NEVER done so myself.
    I will not label- but, the king, especially because he is representing his country could have handled this a little more tactfully. Or, maybe he was not to blame ; the press management was.
    I have to confess; I read about the “controversy” here- and, I assumed that the official reason given out was that the King does not visit mausoleums, an act which his religion forbids.
    While I would not have much to say about that, I would have applauded if he made a gesture towards breaking the stereotypical image of an Muslim Arab King. After all, a visit is all about gestures. Otherwise, in these days of video-conferencing and email, who would need to meet?
    The king, IMO did not hurt his image; but did not enhance it either.

    Did he hurt me? Did he insult us? Nope.

    Having got that out of the way, I am honestly puzzled why you would feel the need to “open the Pandora’s box”- whatever be it, in the context of our discussions. Go ahead; you are surely not waiting for an invitation?

    Ravi Reply:

    Gesture Diplomacy

    The presenting of Skull Cap to Modi was a gesture, as was his refusing to wear it.

    One gesture, two people, one labelled as a hero for refusing and the other made a villian for presenting it.

    LOL

    AshishC Reply:

    Laugh; but, damned if I knew who/ what you are laughing at/ for.
    Did I call Modi a hero for refusing to wear the cap? Or, the person offering a villain?
    The only post I have made on the l’affaire chapeau says nothing of that sort.

    Ravi Reply:

    For sure, you have not.

    Others here have.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    “The king, IMO did not hurt his image; but did not enhance it either.

    Did he hurt me? Did he insult us? Nope”.

    That why go into a tizzy?

    Leave it to me, as to when and in what context I should open the Pandora’s box.

    Anonymous Reply:

    looks like the member of the pack is rattled.it is not a question of Jasmin Deshe Jadacharo .
    In UK revealing a HUGE CHUNK of cleavage by the womenfolks in social gathering is part of their dress code. I dont think Mrs A.C will be too pleased if such compulsion were made to bear on her.THE POINT IS HAS THE SAUDI KING DONE THIS ONLY IN INDIA, THEY DONT EVEN BOW TO THE CEMEMTRY OF FALLEN SOLDIERS.
    To insist that a visit to Rajghat is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE form of courtsey and civility smacks of TOGADIA INSISTING ON GENETIC TEST FOR MUSLIMS TO PROVE THEIR INDIAN STOCK

  • Anonymous

    Manohar,

    Few days back you had said that Modi should appoligize for Gujarat riots as
    asking for forgiveness is divine. And now you have compared Saudi Kings
    refusal to visit Rajghat with a vegeterian gueast. In both instances you have compared the action of a leader with an individual. Any leader in private as an individual can
    do anything he wants but when he is in public he will act differently. If Modi
    had appoligized for the riots everyone would have said that he has admited his fault.
    And any leader visitng another nation should respect her traditions, sacred places etc. Recently before going to Bangladesh our PM – a strick vegeterian – said that
    he will try Hilsa a non veg traditional dish of Bangladesh Such should be an action of a leader.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pranab Mukerjea the FM of India states that Note on 2G was prepared by the officers of the Ministry and did not have his Approval. So what action is now proposed to be taken against that Dy Director of his Ministry who falsely stated that” Seen by the Finance Minister “. Which obviously means that the Minister has seen and not disagreed or objected to the contents therein.
    If Ministers start disowning official notings like this , government functioning can get seriously hampered as Officials shall not move till a positive affirmation or objection is noted by the Minister . So serving officers should better watch out … they can land up in serious trouble as it appears that Ministers nowadays are willing to sacrifice their moral courage to save their skins..
    The only remedy lies in SC intervening and asking for Personal Affidavits from all Officers who represented the different Ministries , PMO , former Cabinet Secretary and whose combined efforts resulted in the finalization of that Note.
    It appears that this Government is setting new standards every day in mistatements, falsification , misrepresentataion to hide its misdeeds.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen
    This is the way Indian Govt exercises power – “screw you people”..
    Not yet any clue on who did Delhi HC, Mumbai diamond street….
    Meanwhile US nails down Al Awlaki and his Pakistani sidekick in mountains of Yemen

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Gopi . The government is busy saving its own skin …the country can wait.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mishra and his poodle balwinder , this from wikipedia

    According to the Hebrew Bible, all Israelites were descended from Abraham, who was born in the Sumerian city of Ur, and migrated to Canaan (commonly known as the
    Land of Israel) with his family. Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide do indeed bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent, with only minor contribution from their host populations[15] (historically due to the taboo on intermarriage in Jewish tradition, the low number of converts to Judaism,

    As for Tay sachs disease ,limited reading mishra should know , Thallasaemis trait mutation in genes devolopes in people living in areas with High incidence of malaria . They are resistant to malaria , this is nature’s way of protecting the population being wiped out.the problem arises when two thallasemia trait people marry each other ,
    The children has 1in 4 chance of devoloping Full Blown Thalassemia.
    Similarly that Tay sach devolopes in one group does not invalidate anything ALSO JEWS USED TO HAVE A LOT OF INBREEDING. In fact the Book MISNAH is nothing but a primer in setting out the laws as WHO CAN HAVE SEX WITH WHOM
    Eg, UNCLE with his brother’s daughter etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Did the Bramhinical pack and the swabhimaaan up yours posterior brigade
    WATCH YESTERDAY , THE DOCUMENTARY IN NDTV TITLED
    “HUNGRY KYA.”
    Post script , it was about India 2011 NOT BENGAL FAMINE 1943
    GROVESENOR MARRIOT PUNJABIS hope you were able to digest your kulchaNaan
    and tarka Daal.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Coming back to the jist of this attack on Waziristan/Haquani blog..

    Chidambaram reported that we (India) know where Dawood is, but they (Pak) wouldnt allow us to get to him — something to this effect.
    I was at a loss. If RAW knew where he was, couldnt they pick him up (I know there are logistical issues; but doesnt CIA pick up “parties of interest”?)..If they cannot transport him, couldnt they just kill him? Are we signatories of some UN cr— that we cannot hunt and kill our enemies?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Kudos to the “efficiency” of Pakistan judicial system–

    The killer of Salman Taseer, ex Pakistan Punjab governor, has been found guilty and sentenced to death. Pak judiciary should be congratulated for the fast proceedings.
    We here are still lawyering the terrorist cases of 10-15 years ago.
    Justice delayed is justice denied.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I think we should not go ga ga over the Pakistan’s judicial system, it is as bad as or worse than ours. In this case, the assassin did not run away and was proud of the misdeed he had committed, a la Godse.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    did the Ravi virus infect you? Going by the symptom, it certainly looks like it :)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) , :)

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    If you think so, be my guest.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Right now Islamic terrorists, Corrupts, Pakistan and Congress are on one side and rest of the India on the other side.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Yes this is a great verdict mainly because the judge refused to entertain
    the verses from Quran and Hadith which were put by defence lawyer in support of the killing.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    We here are still lawyering the terrorist cases of 10-15 years ago.

    20000 muslim lads are languishing in various indian from 15 years without being tried.muslims in india are arrested on false reporting of brhmnst of IB to extract money they are usually innocents.some of them are shot in false encounter to get promotion.there is media ib nexus to create fear to promote brhmnsm.they have no evidence against them.against good cash bribe to create problem for goverment and divide society.

    justice delayed is justice denied.i salute sonia,she is atleast trying to improve the situation.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    please read ,various indian jails,

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Coming back to Wasirstan, Haqquani–subject of this blog-

    Several terrorist connections with Pakistan revealed last week “got lost” in the coverage of US/Pak tension-

    5 or six Pakisatnis were arrested last week in Birmingham, UK for terrorist activities –all or most of them were trained in Pak terror camps.

    One **** (Samer Khan?) was killed in the drone attack on Al Awlaki. This 24 yr old Pakistani was Al Awlaki’s media man.

    Any action by US on Haquani network or on Pakistan is bound to create terrorist actions against us. Pakistan already may have Islamists here ready to trigger.

    Chidambaram’s complaint will be “they did not let us know”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    I am sure you know, that every one knows, Pakistan has a terrorist problem. Each day that passes more and more proof emerges that terrorism is Pakistan’s official and often preferred policy.

    So when you do mention individual incident, then please can you clearly state what is the point that you wish to make.

    Everyone who participates in this blog gets the news, at about the same time as you do.

    So is the point you are trying to make here is that Mr Chidambaram is not reacting to emerging news in a way that you would want him to.

    What would you do, if you were in place of Chidambaram Let’s hear it, then we can react to it.

    Meanwhile, assume that every one even Pakistani’s themselves know terrorism is their main problem.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ravi-
    You are conveying a pristine view of Pakistan when you say “pakistais themselves know terrorism is their main problem”..not so.
    The latest Pew Poll, taken after bin Laden was killed”:
    -75 percent view India ufavorably
    -only 37 percent want army to go after terrorisst
    -oly 55 percent is afraid terrorists will take over
    -57 percent say india is a bigger threat than Pakistani taliban, al queda or any other terror groups…
    figure it out

    Indians aree in fools paradise if they think pakistanis are concerned abt internal terrorism !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    This must be the third time that you have quoted this survey.

    I did not contradict its findings before, and I am not about to do it now.

    However, it is only a survey.

    The point I was making still stands. The Primeminister, as well as General Kayani have come on the TV and said that Pakistan has terrorist problem.

    What, I think you are trying to say is something entirely different.

    It is true that both the Pakistani Public, as well as Pakistani Gov do not consider LeT as a terrorist organisation. That is because LeT have an internal view and an external Agenda. For India it is a terrorist organisation because it targets India. Pak Military created it, so you can hardly expect them to declare it as a terrorist organisation.

    Similarly, the Pakistan Government and Public consider the Pakistan Taliban as Terrorists and the Afghanistan Taliban as not.

  • Ravi

    Well said my friend

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The rabid and vicious invectives used against the saudi king’s refusal to visit rajghat , only reveals How ignorant and pig headed “some” bloggers are.
    This is because Saudi beleives in a particular brand of islam , which says you only show respect to GOD. The same king will not show deference to the founder of Saudi Kingdom , Bin Aziz Saud, infact there are no massoluem in his honour.
    That doesn’t mean saudi king has shown disrespect , in fact he will probably give some small change to tune of 100 millions for Gandhi research centre.
    When the last saudi king died , his body was taken in the middle of nowhere in a desert , and buried. Nobody will be able to identify now where he is buried.
    NOT EVERYTHING IS BAD WITH WAHABIS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan-

    does not mean anything other than Wahabis do not have mausoleums.
    Wahabis made a huge noise about Osama’s burial. Why did they create an uproar if the burial place is insignificant?

    And the way I understand it is that US did it in the sea because they did not want a”pilgrimage/inspirational place” for Jehadis to visit. So, may be in some situations, Wahabis may like a mausoleum!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    You are plain wrong.

    No fuss was made by any Wahabi Cleric about Osama’s burial.

    Can you support with evidence the emphatic statement you make.

    The Saudi establishment, of which the Wahabi School is a part, were just as much against Osama, as the US.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ravi, you are absolutely true, If osama had a “kosher” wahabi burial in the deserts , then no one should be able to identify it.
    That does not invalidate the american severe anxiety , about his mutiliated body pictured and posted on the web. That web would have been the shrine

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi, The jews from Manipur , who got the right to settle in Israel are a DODGY lot. Apparently some of their ritual is similar to the biblilical jews. Thus the assumption.There is not a great deal more to go about.
    There are some in Maharashtra who came 2000yrs ago, and some in Kerala. There were a sizable jewish population in Calcutta . I HAVE MET THREE PATIENTS IN LONDON ALL FROM CALCUTTA, where there still stands a synagogue and a Jewish girls school.. Though jews in India are not given due importance by the World congress of Jewry.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Among my personal friends is a lady who every couple of years or so, will visit Cochin Jewish Cemetery to tend to Jewish graves there as the remaining Jewish population is getting old and is not large enough to do that.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    jews wants shudras to do menial jobs.like britishers have taken indian labour to carribian countries.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    ~ CONGRESS GESTAPO AT WORK !! DIGVINASH SINGH TARGETS BLOGGERS~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    THE Congress is now following the Nazi and Pakistani saga of hounding dissent through use of state police and CBI. Twitter and Facebook messages of people
    who do not agree with Digvijay have been used to file CASES against them. Police and Gestapo power is being used to destroy dissent and build up a Nazi saga.

    The whole story is being twisted to make it sound like hate mail !

    Read this in NDTV.

    New Delhi: Delhi Police have registered a case against 22 people for sending hate mails against Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh, who has alleged an attempt at tarnishing his image on social networking sites, police said on Friday.

    “After a month of probe, we registered a case yesterday (Thursday) under the Information Technology Act and initiated verification of the 22 people,” said a police officer.

    “We will give notices to various social networking websites to remove all the insulting contents and pictures,” said the officer.

    Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/22-booked-for-sending-hate-mails-against-digvijaya-singh-137819?pfrom=home-otherstories&cp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    When I did not see your postings last few days I was thinking the same.

    CONGRESS GESTAPO AT WORK.

    ha ha .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Vinod Sharma

    Some months back you used the information provided by Amar SIngh and Digvijay Singh to write an expose which was used to attack the anti corruption movement.

    Today, Amar SIngh is running away from jail by using an ailment as an exxcuse. And Digvijay SIngh has even gone to the extent of filing fake cases against people who do not agree with him.

    Do you see both of them exposed now? Or would you agree with their stance?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vij

    Love to have you back.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    ~~ BOOK LAUNCH !! of the THREE FUNDOO ‘ S ~~~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    I was long searching for a story for a book. I think I have found it. Here is a precis’

    Dole holder Ravi had a plan,
    How to fool the UK government
    And get some extra jam

    I’ll work for the ISI, Ravi planned
    Truth, morality and India
    Let it be Damned

    He joined T U R D Tajendar
    roped in Engrich
    The plan was to spread fundmantalism
    And somehow get rich !

    On the internet,
    they bumped into VijayKumar
    who needed a story plot
    The THREE FUNDOOS,
    The book is now called !!
    :) :) Ha ha ha

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    विजय साहिब बा-तौर-ऐ सावधानी यह एक शेर पड़ लीजिये
    ———————————————————-
    रेखता के तुम ही उस्ताद नहीं हो “ग़ालिब”
    कहते हैं अगले ज़माने में कोई मीर भी था
    ————————————————————-

    हर एक आने का दोअनी से जवाब दें गे

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    bak rahan hoon junu mein kya kya main

    kuch na samjhe khuda kare koi

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    दो मुआ सांप.
    Do Muha Sanp (Binoy just for you)
    Two Faced Snake

    The snake charmer who frequented my childhood street, would often show a two faced snake. As children, not knowing any better, we accepted it as a fascinating aberration of nature (कुदरत का करिश्मा).

    We now know, to fool any adventurous predator, some snakes have eyes like markings on their tail. In jungle these markings may have fooled a predator, in urban environment they fired up our over active imagination. We made ourselves believe that the snake could move both forwards and backwards, or vice a versa.

    The charmer’s commentary that accompanied the show, mentioned that such snakes were abundantly available in Nagpur (pun intended). Indeed it was rumoured that a veterinary surgeon was so good, that he was able to take two normal snakes and convert them into one do muha snake (दो मुआ सांप)

    Not so long ago, two snakes, both (आस्तीन का सांप ), One called Shenoy and the other Vijay, were conjoined into a single conjugating whole, the result was a self procreating दो मुआ सांप. The process finished with one funny flaw, it gave venom to one mouth and fangs to the other, thereby making both ends ineffective.

    A repeat of the process is planned over the next few days, one can already see TWO eager snakes, amorously weighing each other, with a map of NAGpur in one hand.

    I wish them luck
    Being a conjugating whole
    They no longer have a need to XXXK

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar-

    I did not mean that Nehru literally destroyed Air India – the nationalization (done by Nehru) did it..JRD was running it profitably, why was the rush to nationalize as if it was the number one issue facing India? Nehru should have put govt money and started a new airline if he felt ashamed that the new nation did not have a state owned (???why??) flag carrier. (USA does not have, so also many other countries .. may be his awe of Britain must have made him to own Air India — I think British Airways was a UK govt owned entity at that time)

    Well, this blog is about Wazirstan, what should US do to control Haqqnis, and what will be the impact of all these..So, let us hold on to economics, sovereign vs individual entrepreneurship etc for another occasion.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I disagree with you. In 1953, there were 8 airline each with around 1, 2 or 3 aircraft at most.

    Tata Airlines, Indian National Airlines, Air Service Of India, Deccan Airways, Ambika Airways, Bharat Airways, Mistry Airways, Orient Airways

    After nationalisation – Air India and Indian Airlines (agree it was a bit of laggard).

    At least until 1977 and for some years after that, Air India was a really world class. Then the slide started and look where it today – in the pits.

    OK.We will close this topic here.
    ——————————————–

    Next post here will be about Wazirstan – whatever little I know.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    Air India was doing ok (not Great, though) ’til large order of aircrafts was stuffed down its throat sometime in (if I recall correctly , 2004). Your tracing of Air India’s current problems back to Nehru may be a tad too far fetched.
    Try analysing the purchases made by Air India, its merger attempts with Indian Airlines , giving up its profitable routes, less favourable route sharing agreements etc.
    Another thing, it is not just PSUs that make losses, even Private Enterprises can do terribly. In the same sector – DELTA Airlines had once filed for Bankruptcy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Not only Delta ,PAN AM also folded.Though I have to say AIR INDIA is unbeleivably bad ,particularly catering MANAGED BY TATA .
    is SINGAPORE AIRLINES a state enterprise , IT IS OUTSTANDING

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    A Note for those who were discussing Modi’s wearing of Skull Cap.
    A perfectly Onionesque moment would be when Modi wears the Skull Cap followed by his waving of hands with his palms exposed in full view of Camera, shouting and laughing hysterically – look all no more blood. The willing Mullahs performing chorus of “Waah Waah Modiji” in the background.
    p.s.: For those not in know “The Onion” (http://www.theonion.com/) happens to be a very popular American online Satire magazine. The word “Onionesque” here relates to Onion magazine.
    p.p.s.: Did we notice the arrest of Sanjeev Bhatt ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @mahesh, brilliant .By the way this is from Shan.
    On a different matter for you to ponder about.
    there was a documentary in NDTV yesterday titled “HUNGRY KYA”.
    It showed the dehumanising condition of rural poor particularly acute amongst TRIBALS of maharashtra , Orissa , MP ,for that matter every where in the deep recess of rural india.
    Now the tribals of maharashtra are all dalit and they have all converted to Buddhism. Now their diet was millet onion and chillie . Conseques are all there to see. rickety figures.
    Now why can’t govt take initiatives and teach team PIG FARMING(buddhist have no problem), one pig produces six litters , will eat human excrement , same with poultry , IF GOVT CAN SUBSIDISE ANIMAL FEED , and distribute IMAGINE THE CONSEQUENCES,High protein ,vitamin also IMMUNE TO VAGARIES OF NATURE.
    Your comment is eagerly awaited

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    shan

    I believe lots of money is allocated.. However, it is not targeted to groups or specific means/goals, no accountability etc.. Most of the money is stolen by bureaycrats.. However, ithink, there is a new right of info, RTA, which ahs caused transpaency even at a low level of govt with many villages chasing the phantom moey spent on them. so the gud news is that many villages have taken advantage and progressed..

    i m wondering abt maharashtra — it is a fairly well off state with better villages..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are right – the bureaucrats and the middlemen steal a major part of it.

    There is a ray of hope, with AADHAR system (Nandan Nilekani’s project), the money is to be transferred directly to the beneficiary’s bank account. We have to see how it works on the ground. It will take sometime to be really effective. Lot of spade work needs to be still done.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The NGOs and leftists are fighting the Aadhar system. They do not want India to progress!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza

    There are too many people/interests groups who want to grind their own axes and to protect their own turfs. That is the tragedy.

    I only hope there are fewer bottlenecks and the scheme takes off as intended.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    Remember Rajiv Gandhi, the then Gen. Secretary of the congress party said, “the poor man gets only 15 paise out of every rupee the government spends on him, the rest of the money goes into our pockets”.

    The so called panacea for all ills, Nandan Nilekini’s UID, is in immediate danger of getting starved of funds, because Pranab Mukherji has refused to fund the project in the manner Nilekini wants.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,
    Couple of things .
    While there has been a conversion to Buddhism – it has been more among Scheduled Castes and less so in Scheduled Tribes. Socially speaking , Dalits and Tribals are different groups – though both belonging to the underclasses. As much so that even today Caste and tribal origin are good enough social markers in rural India for economically vulnerable groups.
    Consequently , one would expect social resistance to adaptation of Pork. Another aspect that needs to be investigated is natual and economic sustainability of subsidised Animal Feed.
    That said, my bias still tilts towards improving the conditions of Farming classes – especially the smaller land owners – with well designed economic measures such as well regulated finance availability, crop insurances.
    On a related Note – a recent article by P. Sainath in Counterpunch points out migration of farming classes away from farming as a consequence of economic un-certainity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Did we notice the arrest of Sanjeev Bhatt”?

    What else were you expecting?

    Modi has lot to hide.

    No Lokayukta for 8 years and opposing when one appointed.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    What else you expect manohar. This central mole, challenging state authority and roaming Ahamdabad with expanded chest?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    A note by middle level finance ministry clearly pointing Chidambaram role in 2G scam, is of no consequence to Congressis but utterance by an IPS officers who is working with Congress against BJP, are gospel..

    These congressis are not only financially corrupt but morally too.

    Ravi Reply:

    True colours are revealing themselves. It was always a matter of time.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jab dil mein nahin hai khoT to phir Modi kyoon dartaa hai.

    That too from one IPS officer. Very “brave” indeed of Modi.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    this Bhat is a confirmed custodial killer. He slept for 9 years, forgot all about having been present in Modi’s house on 27th Feb., 2002 and when he suddenly wakes up Rip Wan Winkle like in 2011, he finds himself metamorphosed into a fake whistle blower! And under Teesta’s able guidance and with solid support from the congress, he forces his driver to give a false affidavit. His demand to be interviewed was rejected by the SIT, his own affidavit to the supreme court was thrown out unread, even unseen, but the congress screams he is a whisle blower!!!!!!!!!!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    The arrest seems to be legal. (though connections make suspicious). I do not think Modi is involved in this because it will be too stupid of him if he did, especially with his national ambitions

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza

    I think you are being naive. Modi also holds the Home portfolio and an arrest of an IPS officer cannot be without that approval from the top.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ramlila ground attack on Baba Ramdev and his followers at midnight was a police decision but
    Bhatt arrest is Modi’s decision ….. ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Come on, Mohan. Point out one post of mine where I have said you are implying about Ramdev’s arrest.

    You may buy Modi’s version and not Congress’ version. I do not buy either. By now, you should know me.

  • Anonymous

    Pakistani army has conditioned its people as to who its perceived enemies are (vs real enemies).
    The reason for non-action against Haqquani etc is quite evident from the Pew Poll results Hegde referenced to. 57% Pakistanis believe India is a bigger threat than terrorists; 75% distrust Indians, and only 35% want army to tackle terrorists..

    That means we may worry about terrorism there. They do not care at all..Their focus is India..They protect Haqquani etc to use against India…period.

    Indians better be careful and be demanding of their leaders, and if need be throw the leaders away and try new leadership.. for Paksitanis in their desperation, will fulfill what Jinnah said 65 years ago. he said in 1946 either India be divided or India be destroyed. he got India divided; and now his followers will fulfill his other alternative of destruction.

    Let us not be buddy/buddy and sympathetic; they really believe in harming us, rather than worrying about how terrorism is harming them..

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Indians should start from India itself and then go forward finishing this carbuncle, that is pakistani Jihadist. many symathisers here masquerading as liberals with fake names.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) . True colours revealed at last.

    Once a Jan Sanghi, always a Jan Sanghi.

    Looking forward to next week, when you are a bit less distracted and are able to string a coherent sentence.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    So, what is wrong being a Jan Sanghi?

    Ravi Reply:

    Nothing Gopi.

    Just making sure that I know what kind of a political beast one is dealing with.

    It helps putting comments in political context

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    when a fake satsanghi spills his jihadi poison here that is wrong.

    Ravi Reply:

    You will not know a satsang if you lived in Beas. The only Sangh you know is the one that wears Kahki Nikkar, Kali Topi and gives a half mast salute to any one with a walrus Moustache.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Hey Ravi;
    What is so bad about being Sanghi? They are at least nationalist patriot unlike Leegies, who pretend to be liberal but most communal people on the face of this earth.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    There is nothing wrong with being a Sanghi.

    If you do not mind.

    1. Confusing Hindutava with Hinduism.

    2. Being associated with a known Terrorist organisation.

    3. Regress India into a medieval imaginary Ram Rajya, and a mono culture, achieved via a genocide.

    4. Belving that man is born unequal and that Brahmins are better than the rest.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Where from you learned the wisdom quoted by you above.
    No body preaches in sangh that Hinduism and hindutva are same.
    What terrorist organization you are referring to?
    Like so many others, confusing Ram Rajya, said by Gandhi, as an effort to bring India back to medieval time? ask your friends here, whether they are one and same thing. I think, except for couple of people, others will disagree with you on your definition of Ramrajya.
    Where from you got this pearl that brahmins are better than rest? sound so much like thinking of Tajinder/ Ram autar.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    To acquire this wisdom. I took off my Saffron Coloured galsses, and took a left turn.

    I think you need to read the RSS literature a bit more critically and peneteratively.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    They have always “claimed” to speak for 80 crores Hindus, when the support base is most 20%. Who gave them the right to speak on my behalf? Certainly not me.

    Ravi is right. You need to read their literature and the speeches of the key leaders down the years critically. They wish to establish Hindu Rashtra (ancient and backward looking, with bigotry and intolerance holding sway).

    engrich Reply:

    mr pankaj,
    when ghandhi came from south africa jinnah was the chairman of the reception committe.
    ghandhi who was trained by german jew started calling jinnah as muslim.I AM HAPPY THAT A MUSLIM IS CHAIRMAN OF MY RECEPTION COMMITTE.thus he sowed the seed of hindu muslim politics.

    instead of comaigning for stronger united india he started hindu revivalism.used to keep bhagat geeta under his pillow all the time. geeta created castes divided society.established hindu samaj on the supermacy of brhmns. in ramrajya a shudra shambhook was burnt alive when found reading hindu holy scripture.pregnant sita was sent to jungle to die.
    both are voilent war stories.inspite of this, his slogan was satya ahinsa parmo dhrama.
    messanger of non voilence should not have kept such apartheid voilent literature.
    after seeing all these nonsense jinnah who was ambassdor of hindu-mulim unity left politics.gone to london.

    i consider ghandhi policies of hindu revivalism responsible for partition of india.

    he wae was zoinist agent,unfolding their plan of balkanization of india.

    now rsss has taken this burden.
    mr pankaj india was prosperous happy and united during medieval period.
    but very voient during hindu period.that is why vikaramaditya and ashok converted to atheism and became buhdhdist.when ashoka was hindu he killed his 99 brothers and entire population of kalinga present day orrisa.
    indian tax payers were spending lot of money to keep him poor.
    thanks

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    you have hit the nail on the jihadi head.
    In the absence of the proxy and during the self-imposed silence of the big cat, small mice like Manohar is solidly defending the jihadis here.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So long you are there to call every one who does not agree with you – a Jihadi.

    We know you have read this morning NAG report and you are ready to serve your Bhagwa Master

    Anonymous Reply:

    I don’t call everybody a jihadi You are the only jihadi on this blog, besides, of course Ram Auter. The others like Manohar are only your foot soldiers.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy

    Mera Qasoor Kyaa Hai? Why am I not being “labeled” as a jihadi too?

    Ravi Reply:

    He is hoping to recruit you. Whilst I am a lost cause

    Anonymous Reply:

    The invitation must be in the mail. Is it?

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I hope this does not come across as me patronising you, but I am sure you are able to work out as to what is going on here.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course, I know about the the shenanigans.here. My ealier comment was as you guessed a tongue-in-cheek.

    Anonymous Reply:

    No you are NOT a jihadi, but you certainly support the jihadis, fake Ravi and Tajender T.urd.

    Ravi Reply:

    Jagat Behnoi Ji.

    Like you I am very selective. I do not call every one a Sanghi. Such choice abuse is reserved for Kali Topi wearers like you and your chamcha’s.

    Manohar can slap you harder than I can and for that I am greatful to him.

    Watching you squirm is a delight to behold.

    Squirm you little worm, squirm

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    That was an invitation for you to join the BVS gang.

    I thought you were already there.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi-
    There will surely be blow-back from Pakistan. I tend to agree that they are not going after Haqquani network because they want to use it against India.
    Al-Awlaki’s murder will also result the organized and free lancing Islamists going after US and its friends.

    I was reading about Samir Khan, the 25 yr old Pakistani American jehadi blogger/publisher who was also killed in Yemen. He is the son of a mid level exec. His parents knew that he was having weird ideas when he was in junior high school; but instead of sending him to counselling, they sent him to a series of Imams!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Rajiv, Rajeev,

    US is asking Pak, “hamein Haqqani de ”
    Pak replies, “pehle, bheek ka cheque aane de”

    for driving, a Saudi woman is to be lashed
    for misspelling Quran, a Pak boy is to be bashed

    Pak has unleashed on US the Hina factor
    and unfortunately for US, Pak is the TINA factor

    The Saudi king refuses to visit Gandhi’s mausoleum
    He may be boorish, but we value his petroleum.

    Pak is in cahoots with Haqqani, says Admiral Mullen
    This has made Gilani, Zardari and Kayani very sullen

    They have demanded from an unconditional apology
    But the US says, ‘have a re-look at your anthropology’.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan,
    You are as usual using abuses to sound correct. I have proved you wrong on many occasion..Here is one more. There is tomb of Mohammad in Medina which is revered by every muslim on this earth including Saudi king. Unofficially Allah seems to be an aide of Mohammad if you read from neutral sources. If they can show respect to Mohammad then why not Gandhi.

    You should also know that Indian being very very sensitive of Saudi religious fundamentalism always sends a muslim ambassador to that country.

    Can you explain why in this modern age Mecca is forbidden for non-muslims? Now come up with some abuse and play on the tunes of Jehadi Ravi and his corrupt chamchas.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It is part of protocol for all visiting foreign head of states to visit Rajghat…I am surprised that congressis (now dalals) are not aware of this.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Anymore moronic declarations?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    There is no such protocol.

    This is nothing more and nothing less than political opportunism of the most crass kind

    It may have been a common practice during the early years after the Independence to pay reverence to a Great Man, who changed the map of the world.

    However, one can question its relevance today.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jihadi,

    you are wrong here, as elsewhere. It is Jinnah, who changed the map of India, not Mahatma Gandhi.

    Ravi Reply:

    Crypto Fascist and Saffron Terrorist.

    But of course you are utterly simplistic, a simpleton and totally wrong.

    Jinnah alone did not change anything, not even your mind. Ask Jawant and Advani.

    Gandhi changed the world we live in, and your friend and Guru, Godse changed his life span.

    Do continue Jagat Behnoi Ji, you bring the best out of me

    Anonymous Reply:

    For Indians, it is only Jinnah who changed the map of India. For Pakistanis Gandhi changed nothing. That includes you and Tajender the T.urd.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shenoy Sahab;
    Yeh :Jagat Baap: has only one agenda, to defend Jihadis and Jinnah. Period. No contribution to this blog of any thing worthwhile. Look at the way, this brazen person defending Tajender??

    Ravi Reply:

    Well well the Jagat Poodle puts a strain on the leash.

    Well you are so blinded by the Sanghi propaganda that you would not know if truth ran over you and killed you.

    That is because you still think Balraj Madhok should have been the PM.

    Well I am glad that he was not.

    Pankaj, let me remind you of two facts before you start something you will NOT Win.

    1. I am an Orphan.

    2. I enjoy a scrap.

    So welcome to the scrum, you may land one blow more than I do. But you will feel my blows, too.

    The Choice is entirely yours.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ravi;
    I am game.

    Ravi Reply:

    Game is what you will get.

    That I can guarentee.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    So let us begin.

    Ravi Reply:

    Oh I thought we already had.

    You, to me, seem to have started a while ago. You dithered a bit, but then fell rightwards.

    engrich Reply:

    first call for partition came from lala lajpat rai.indian brhmnst fulfilled his dream.jinnah was advocate of indian shias.nehru wanted to become pm to enjoy life and closenes with zoinist moutbatten and his wife.if he knew that jinnah will die so soon he might have waited.without majority approval india would not have divided.muslims were weak.moreover creation of pakistan was a great blow to the muslim interest of india.

  • Anonymous

    Manohar_T (Shan will call your T tatti…but I won’t),
    If you think I am someone’s sidekick then you must be high on drugs…I never defend anyone..I have infact defended Shan many times when he was cornered for abuses..I believe in justice..If a moron like you need my protection, I’ll provide you.

    But you being a corrupt congressi can never behave like normal..Now go and take care of your ***** ravi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No one asked you for clarifications, so there was no need to rant.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    He is a Belcher.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi,
    You have a history of leaning on others..You do it with Vinod, Tajender, Shan, Manohar, Prabhat and whosoever comes on this forum…Always begging for support like a roadside prostitute. You are just like pakistan..a ***** willing to sleep with anyone for protection. You hide behind idiots like Manohar because you are exposed again and again by almost everyone.
    Manohar being corrupt moron has no other choice because he is allergic to word hindu..He thinks anyone opposing congress has to be a hindutvavadi…To me he is basically BIN-Paindi ka lota…A total a$$hole..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You are confusing me with some one whom you love dearly.

    I will let Manohar answer for himself.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev mein debate karne ke liye to kuchh dum to hai nahin and naa koi material, to kyaa kare Rajeev – phir usko ek idea aayaa – chalo gaali-galoch kartaa hoon? Bahoot khoob. Keep up your ranting – this one seems to be an express one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Rationalist SHan,
    Here is the true face of Saudi Arabia…land of milk and honey as proclaimed by terrorist Ravi and his cutomers.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14190470

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This is for terrorist Ravi and his customer..India still has good muslims who don’t make excuses for vile Saudi king..

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278508
    Those City Ravanas
    A unique Ramlila, organised and acted out by Muslims, won’t be held this year
    NAMRATA JOSHI

    The Ramlila at Baxi Ka Talaab in Lucknow has seen Ram, Sita and others played by Muslims
    This year, for the first time in 39 years, the BKT Ramlila is unlikely to be held
    Rising costs, reorganisation of villages and local politics has stalled this model of harmony
    The BKT Ramlila had taken place without incident even in the year of the Babri demolition
    ***

    Sarvar and Salman Raza, students of commerce at Lucknow’s Shia PG College, have significantly disparate aims. Sarvar wants to join the army; Salman dreams of becoming a film star, although he hastens to clarify that his idol isn’t his Bollywood namesake but Ranbir Kapoor. For now, however, what’s working up the two brothers is not the rosy future they dream of but the disquieting present: a unique 39-year-old Ramlila in Lucknow in which Sarvar and Salman have played Ram and Lakshman for four years may not take place this year. “It’s heartbreaking to think a slice of our history may end,” says Sarvar. And Salman, “It hurts to know we might lose a vital part of us.”

    What they are talking about is the Baxi Ka Talaab Ki Ramlila, also known as the BKT Ramlila, unique for the leading role played by the Muslim community in organising, staging and enacting it. It takes its name from its historic venue on the outskirts of Lucknow, and is organised for three days during a Dussehra mela. Unlike other Ramlilas, it starts with a Shiv Ki Baraat on Dussehra, when other Ramlilas conclude. Muslims are on the organising committee. The main roles—Ram, Lakshman, Sita etc—are played by young Muslim men, all amateurs. Mohammed Shabbir Khan has been the director for 25 years, doubling up for the role of Dashrath too. Ravan has been played for over 20 years by Mohammed Naseem Khan. Indeed, there are other pan-religion Ramlilas (see box), but this one is unique in that its initiators and major drivers are Muslim, even as Hindus too take on roles in it. Hakim Raza Shadaab, an organiser, remembers a year when Ramzan coincided with Dussehra. The Ravan vadh episode was stopped midway, the mike was switched off and the fasting Muslim actors performed iftaar on stage as the audience waited. “They kept their costumes on, but put on skullcaps instead of mukuts during iftaar,” says Ashid Ali, an organiser. After this, the Ramlila continued!

    Unfortunately this year, inflation and insidious local politics have sprung up like Ravan’s heads and seem set to bring the curtains down on this unsung celebration of harmony and unity. We meet the core organising team 10 days before Dussehra at Baxi Ka Talaab. The area is teeming with grazing cattle. Mosquitoes buzz in stagnant pools. There’s a stage being erected, but it’s for a Mata ka Jagrata, nightlong prayers for Durga, not for the Ramlila. We encounter despondent faces, bereft of excitement, lost in uneasy resignation. “We used to start months in advance, booking bands, elephants and camels for the procession,” says Shadaab. “It’s too late now.”

    So what has gone wrong? The Ramlila faced its first big blow last year when the Hindu-dominated Rudahi and Muslim-dominated Bargadi villages (where the Ramlila originated) along with 12 others were merged with the new BKT town area. With gram panchayats being replaced by a nagar panchayat, the independence to organise the Ramlila locally has gone. Administrative whims have also played a role: last year, the BSP-ruled state government decided to stage its own Ramlila, inviting professionals from Mathura. The local version paled in comparison. “The sanctity of the original was lost,” says Videsh Pal Yadav, who chaired the BKT Ramlila committee from 1991 to 2010. Nirmal Chander, who has made a documentary on the BKT tradition, called Sab Lila Hai, says, “That Ramlila was by outsiders; it was like taking something away from local artistes.” This year, too, the government is organising a huge five-day Ramlila here.

    Nakul Dubey, the local MLA and minister for urban development, did promise to support the BKT Ramlila when he attended it last year, but the organising committee isn’t impressed. “Last year, they didn’t provide water, not even home guards,” says Ashid Ali. Expenses were met with donations from shopkeepers of the local weekly market, but Yadav says, “The market now patronises the bigger, sarkari Ramlila.” The organisers have given up, not sure about raising the Rs 5 lakh needed to conduct the Ramlila. “We only want to continue with this honourable tradition, but they think we are rebelling against the administration and the new Ramlila committee,” says Yadav.

    The foundation for the BKT Ramlila was laid by Dr Muzaffar Hussain and the then gram pradhan of Rudahi, Maikulal Yadav. No professional actors were hired and that tradition still continues, with untrained young Muslim men playing the key roles. “It’s been a way of nurturing local talent,” says Shadaab. The Ramlila has always attracted huge crowds—over 50,000 people come to watch from nearby towns and villages and have made it an abiding symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity. “It’s an example of harmony and secularism,” says Mohas Das of Mohan Kala Kendra, the town’s oldest and largest costume supplier. “Such practices are more effective in fostering peace than political speeches. It will be shameful for Lucknow to lose such a tradition.”

    The organisers are now nursing fond memories of what they had come to love. “The Muslims felt lucky and privileged to participate in the programme,” says Noor Ahmad, who has been involved with the Ramlila from the start. Says Ainul Hussain, a local resident, “Both communities accepted the Ramlila with heart and soul.” Chander speaks of what the tradition had come to signify: “This place is just 120 km from Ayodhya, but the Babri Masjid demolition didn’t affect the Ramlila here.” He hopes the disruption is temporary, and like other organisers, hopes that media reports will bring support and change the fortunes of the BKT Ramlila. “We hope,” say Sarvar and Salman, almost in unison, “this halt is just a comma and not a full stop.”

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    heart warming

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Your self imposed banvas, did not last very long.

    I imagine what prompted such a near fatal reaction, was that us Indians may not drool over, your pearls of home spun wisdom, as some Pakistani’s do in Pakistani blogs. Perhaps you wanted to spend some more time with them.

    I notice you are here appreciating a long cut and paste of some thing that has been obvious for 100’s of years. BTW the DCM Ramlila had a Muslim play Sita since the early 1950’s. This is no news.

    Is one to understand that all such cut and pastes that inspire your approval are OK, whilst others inspire you to sign on to a petition demanding his expulsion.

    I wonder why??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    What are you talking about?

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mirza

    That was addressed to Dr Mishra, I am sure he understood what I meant.

    engrich Reply:

    dr and rajeev ,

    ramlila was initiated by nawab wazid ali of lucknow from baradari.it is under his rule that ayodhya became vibrant municipality.it is he who popularize lord rama in ruler india.indian fascist used this popularity to make blood bath.holy people of ayodhya kicked them out.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    interesting. Did Deoband issue a fatwa?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) ………

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev
    Lucknow was always different. It has a storied history of Gharanas, of Muslim musicians worshipping goddess Saraswathi etc.
    If we were like USA, the Parks and Recreation Dept will have budget to preserve functions like the joint Ramlila, build a historical museum etc.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Ajay Kohli

    I felt the heat that came with this well worn cliché.

    When I say Saudi, I mean the establishment. No one cares about what the Saudi Public thinks.

    As for me disagreeing with those who do not share my world view? What do you do. Do you disagree with people who share your world view. You must be unique.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    rajeev and manohar, pl do lay off each other. Both make interesting contributions.

    Rajeev, I am with you on the thoroughly unpleasant aspects of Saudi culture, royalty and wahabism. BUT THE ONLY THING I ASK is that my Indian brothers and sisters, indeed all workers, are treated humanely.

    I have said before that Saud king not visiting Rajghat is boorish, but would not make an issue out of it. Time magazine, in its millenial poll across 150 countries in 2000, to find the person of the last century, came up with 1. Mahatma 2. Einstein

    I do not, even for one millisecond, worry about not being able to enter Mecca. I am proud that the Swaminarayan temple in Delhi and London allows everyone, as does the Dargah at Ajmer which I have visited.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    maybe Saud’s son or grandson will read that poll and world history and become civilised enough to visit Rajghat, we wait for that moment.

    Rajeev, you are the proud descendent of a civilisation that is on the ascendance. Savour the moment and enjoy the ride, do not look elsewhere and spoil your mood

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Saudi Arabia will go its primitive ways when the oil runs out or Chinese through their ingenuity and state orders run 80% of their energy needs on reusable sources.

    Come to think of it — “go its primitive way” is an oxymoron..They are primitive now!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza,

    “” Come to think of it — “go its primitive way” is an oxymoron..They are primitive now “”

    Nice one.

    engrich Reply:

    ignorance is bliss they have 2 universities in first 200 in world.india has none.they have very advance manufacturing industries which is challenging europe.
    it took me 4 hrs to reach ghaziabad which is 32 kilometer from delhi.their u can drive at 150 anywhere in the country.those who cannot do anything condemn others.

    engrich Reply:

    now ghandhi is bhagwan of indian fascists though they killed him 60 years ago.there is nothing like civilized or uncivilized.u have to care the sentiments of guest.which our goverment did.if saudis take pratibha patil on tour to cow slaughtering centres how she will feel.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    With all due respects to you. ask the other side – the one who started it all. Point out one post, where I have started it.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I believe that Dr Mishra does not recognise his side, as a side.

    His view is that he and others like him are telling the truth.

    People like you and I needlessly come here to besmirch the reputation of our beloved country.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    Time magazine, in its poll across 150 countries in 2000, to find the person of the last century, came up with 1. Mahatma 2. Einstein

    Possibly a typo by you – the correct order 1. Einstein 2. Mahatma
    Not that it matters.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    No Manohar;
    Mahatma has a precedence over Einstein, here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    I was not referring to the order here in India, but the rankings in the poll itself. AFAIK, Einstein was number 1, followed by the Mahatma. And I said – it did not matter.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    How would you define humanely, in Saudi context?

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Vinod Ji

    There have been some petitions submitted to you with regards to banning an individual. The petitioners, to the last person are dyed saffron Hindu Fundo’s who would like to press gang this blog into the service of their one sided rancid hard line Hinduatva agenda.

    History suggests that you may be seriously considering banning this individual.

    I have previously advised you against a ban and will once again do so. However, if we are on that page, then I suggests that you have a look at the posts made by your favourite “Belcher”.

    “Once a belcher, always a belcher”, was a diamond put down.

    This belcher’s posts are baseless, full of lies, and he attacks other people based entirely upon imaginary precepts.

    आप ही जाना उधर और आप ही हैरान होना

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Also, did we notice there have been more posts about “soon to be banned blog commentator” than the particular blog commentators blog comments itself ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes Mahesh that is true and ironic

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan,
    Couple of things .
    While there has been a conversion to Buddhism – it has been more among Scheduled Castes and less so in Scheduled Tribes. Socially speaking , Dalits and Tribals are different groups – though both belonging to the underclasses. As much so that even today Caste and tribal origin are good enough social markers in rural India for economically vulnerable groups.
    Consequently , one would expect social resistance to adaptation of Pork. Another aspect that needs to be investigated is natual and economic sustainability of subsidised Animal Feed.
    That said, my bias still tilts towards improving the conditions of Farming classes – especially the smaller land owners – with well designed economic measures such as well regulated finance availability, crop insurances.
    On a related Note – a recent article by P. Sainath in Counterpunch points out migration of farming classes away from farming as a consequence of economic un-certainity.
    p.s.: Re-posting as earlier response got drowned somewhere in the overflowing bile here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh-
    The agriculture-related employment shares 65% of the total employment while the GDP share is only 25% or so (I may be off, but the share of employment/gdp is quite disproportionate). So, there is a planned and unplanned migration away from agricultural jobs.
    There is also a migration away due to education; the educated children of a small farmer not wanting to continue in farming.

    Then, there is lot of stealing of funds intended for special food programs for the disadvantaged – Manohar alluded to that; he felt schemes like Aadhar should close some of these stealing by bureaucrats.

    An interesting news I read, believe in one of the Western newspapers, is that the recent price rise of onions/vegetables is due to more children in the rural areas attending school. That there is no free or low priced child labour, and the producers have to pay higher wages to adults.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    If prices are dependant upon child labour, then they are false prices.

    Real price of a commodity must be based upon an adult living wage. Any thing else is just not sustainable.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ravi u are very right,their product is sold 40ruppees a kilo in delhi while 1rs a kilo only 40 kilometer away.brhmnsts hate to touch land and landowner.u know the history of bhumihars in bihar.why goverment is not protecting them.if they get only 5/kilo their sons can go schools can have good health.dallals and bitchoulias are running the show.

    gopi nair is rss propagandist on blog

    Ravi Reply:

    How right you are

    Ravi Reply:

    Mahesh

    I agree with you that to solve problems of India, Indian solutions are required.

    Pork is unlikely to be considered as an Indian Solution.

    Just as an example, I believe that in my childhood an attempt was to mass introduce Mushrooms into Indian Diet. It failed.

    In Europe, one can pay a very high price for quality wild mushrooms.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh

    I am not sure whether you had followed the debate about rural development about two or three blogs earlier. I will try and post link for you. The central point was setting up of co-operatives at the village level or even among group of neighbouring villages – first and foremost to ensure water security (rain harvesting etc.), something similar to Hivare Bazaar or Ralegaon Siddhi models – minus the “Hitleresque” dictats (assaulting the personal liberties of the people) of Anna Hazare.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @RajeevS, and Rajiiiiiiv, Guys let me introduce myself professionally.I am a general surgeon of some years of experience , at the moment drifting to urology because urology is less strenous.Now guys I AM NOT AN AVERAGE BLOGGER.My experience in life is ENOROMOUSLY COMPLEX ,than you guys , in marketing software or whatever. MY RELIGION AND MY CREED IS SCIENCE, thus Rational and also I am a Humanist, FOR I HAVE YET TO SEE A RACE IMMUNE FROM CANCER YET TO SEE A RELIGION THAT CAN PROTECT ITS ADHERENTS FROM THE “EMPEROR OF MALADIES”
    So why all this Bakwas .
    Now Saudi Arabia.
    Rather than wasting time on the blog why not do some reading , like Eugene Rogan’s THE ARABS, YOU WILL BE TRANSFORMED.
    Even somebody with balwinder’s IQ can make out SAUDI SOCIETY IS STUCK AT YEAR HIZRA ONE, cladded all around by 21st century.
    But that business of not defering to anyone except GOD .EXPLAINS THE ROOT CAUSES OF ISLAMIC HEGEMONY FOR 1000 YRS.
    That birthplace of prophet in Mecca is a shrine to SHIAS, the saudis look at it with contempt(Source :Eugene Rogan)
    This egalitarianism has been the reason why THEY WON BATTLE AFTER BATTLE ,JUST TO PLEASE ALLAH , same the christians used “The Calling”, and the need to respond. HINDUS WERE BUSY WRITTING LAWS OF DEFILEMENT.Same with JEWS , NO WONDER JEWS WERETAKEN SLAVES FOR MILLENIA.
    Do you know when the TURKS attacked Constantinopole , they were in a disadvantageous position. The fortress was perched high up the hill and the walls were very very high. So they suffered heavy casualty , UNDETERRED , they piled and stacked the dead bodies one top of another, AND THE CLIMBED OVER THE HIGH WALLS and killed mercilessly.
    Now every dog has its day , BAGHDAD WAS SACKED BY HALAKU KHAN , the arabs still cannot forget that.
    There was a OPEN PACT between Abdul BIn Aziz Bin Saud and BIn Wahab (the preacher) YOU BRING YOUR FLOCK TO ACCEPTED ME AS KING , I WILL SEE THAT YOUR BRAND OF ISLAM IS THE ONLY OFFICIAL BRAND IN SAUDI.

    As for MAID BEATING , PEOPLE LIVING IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES AT OTHER
    Bangalore: A Bangalore-based family who recruited a domestic help through a Delhi-based placement agency has been allegedly torturing her for the last two year.

    The 20-year-old girl Usha Thopna from Assam was forced to seek employment through this agency when she turned 18. For the last two years, she has been working at the residence of Sandeep and Roski Vats, who allegedly tortured her physically and mentally daily. She had scars on her hands, wounds on her leg and fear and helplessness in her voice. To top this, they are yet to pay her wages.

    Sandeep Vats, a software professional and Roski who runs a library for children, do not even allow Usha to interact with neighbours.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    now royal family is opening hence thepact is crumbling.wahabism was creation of british imperialists to kill and fight turks like rss in india.both are on death bed.out of time.soon will be part of history.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr Vijay

    Your poem on the three Fundoos was really funny !!

    Who were the three funddos.

    I can identify one– Mr engrich, who is writing nonsense.

    The second you have named is obviously Ravi, about whom I have mixed feelings. he puts in some reasonable content. But somehow there is an agenda to insult Hindu feelings…

    And the third T U R D Tajendar… is he on the blog also?

    Anyway great poem. TYou should write more !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal

    I am sorry, I am unable to reciprocate.

    I do not know you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mr Ravi

    I hope you did not mind. I am always very upset with fundmatalists who target India and castigate it for not being liberal enough. While secretly they support the wahabbi agenda of coversions and killings. Equally irritating is the claptrap of trying to insult Hindus using logic which they wont be able to use on their own religion.

    Ultimately hindus form 85% of the country. There is no point in making them feel cornered.

    But of course hindus have ot keep reforming their own religions as do all other religions. No single book can be ever perfect. Even Einstein has been put to test. Hindus have to dump the caste system once forever, even if it means a few of us lose prievelages. As for the other religions… they need to look beyond scriptures or intrpret or dump scriptures in case there is a rift with reality.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So Sanjay

    You think that a 62 year old Mona Sikh who has lived in the UK for 40 years, has suddenly become a Wahabi/Jihadi/ISI Agent/Shan’s Kuttar/An existential threat to India. Etc.

    Simply because he is critical of HINDUVATWADI’s and Sanghi’s like BV SHENOY, RAJEEV, RAJIIIIIV, VIJAY, etc.

    Then be my guest, they are recruiting other gang memebers and I do not care much for my fan club.

    Judge me by what I write and not by what other people tell you that I have written

    Anonymous Reply:

    When you have Tajender T.urd in your gang, whom you have resurrected on this blog as Gingrich, why do you need any more to gang up with you? Besides, you have the bonus of Manohar’s solid support.

    Ravi Reply:

    You obviously can not read, either on the line or in-between the lines.

    engrich Reply:

    mittal hindu population is only 13-15%.remaining are slaves of hindus(high caste).actually hindustan is geogrephical concept not religious.

    engrich Reply:

    mittal,u dont understand the internal dynamics of ruler india.creator of wealth want peace.hate spewing have no taker among them.they form 85%of india.looted and exploited for centuries.

    Anonymous Reply:

    sunjay-

    Finally, I am getting a hang on this (difficult) blog format.

    Ravi used to be labeled Jihadi, ISI agent etc in Zia’s blog.

    He had talked about his views being formed by how his family was driven( by Hindus) from Sialkott to India (?)- on one question about Muslim terrorist actions against the USA , he answered “they have done a lot of harm to us” .. And in a comment to Tjender/Ramavtar, he said “they will never convert to our religion, so don’t go overboard”..

    Now he will say “show me the proof”. I do not know how to pull old blogs, but you can find it in Zia’s blog.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes Sanjay

    Unable to make your own mind.

    I suggest that you follow the gang. The Sanghi gang.

    In the Zia blog Raju was known as S Singh. The behrupia thinks every one is like him.

    He was asked for proof lon before the format changed. He didn’t then and he will not now because he is a duplicitous unsavoury character.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    A Gandhi at Rajghat

    Today, Sonia Gandhi visited the Raj Ghat on 142nd Birth Anniversary of the Mahatma.

    LK Advani was spotted having a chat with her.

    Do we know if the Nagpur gilterrati were present there in their full regalia, complete with a Black Topi and a half mast salute.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    now he is the god of hindutvawadis.though 60yrs ago they killed him.indian fascists are using him to reach to power.though from inner heart,they hate him.privately they even abuse him.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi
    You wrote

    “Well, this blog is about Wazirstan, what should US do to control Haqqnis, and what will be the impact of all these..So, let us hold on to economics, sovereign vs individual entrepreneurship etc for another occasion”.

    Sorry Gopi, was busy taking care of an unruly element here, hence the delayed response.

    1) Reports have in come that one of key members of this Haqqani group has been captured by the USA in Afghanistan.

    2) The root cause is the ISI and the Pakistani Army (PA) and who have managed to beat the Pakistani political class into submission.

    3) Haqqanis is one of the offshoots of the cancer called ISI/PA.

    4) Even if the USA manages to eliminate the Haqqanis – with (highly unlikely) or without the help of ISI/PA, nobody knows how many other unknown “assets” the ISI/PA has across the region. They will be activated as and when required.

    5) The diabolical ISI/PA may ask the Haqqanis to lie low for sometime or ask them to change its complexion (name, whatever)

    So, IMO, nothing is going to change much even if (4) above becomes a reality, unless the ISI/PA are taken care of. How? Now that is a billion dollar question.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Maohar-
    u r right on all..Also the PA/ISI has extremist religious connexion.So, the elected civilians cannot do anything against th e PA/ISI. The only solution is mass uprising, like the Jasmine revolution in Arab lands (may not be good either– I was euphoric; but the latest news is that extremist Islamists are nudging the idealists away!) or 2) US military putting them imn their place.. Obviously (2) will have long term implications; but cannot be ay worse than waht it is now, probabilistically, even better

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    Good analysis.

    However, the only possible solution is to constructively engage with Pakistan. That does not preclude being prepared for a nasty war, if one was thrust upon us.

    All of the above points IMHO are symptoms rather than the disease.

    The disease is:

    1. For the middle eastern population to stop funding the Fundamental Islam. This experiment into Sharia Society is over and unsuccessful. Saudi is the key to this, and that is a slow moving beast. Withdrawl of this hormone will reduce the tumour. Religious fundamentalism on both sides of the border will go into remission.

    2. To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. This nat present is a more potent ingredient than Kashmir is. It has successfully put Kashmir on the back burner.

    3. Any genie once let out of the bottle is going to be difficult to put back in. Bhindrawale and Shiv Sena are both prime examples. The only people who can put the Islamic fundamentalist genie back in the bottle are those who created them, which is the ISI/Pak army. For them to do this, see 2 above.

    4. Gopi I hope you still do not believe that the Haqqani group is under direct control of the ISI, they have out grown them and are now funded from a variety of sources and have become a private for hire facility. They do ISI’s dirty work, more for money than for religious reasons. This means they can be bought-off

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-
    I have entirely different opinion and perspectives.

    - First of all how does one “constructively engage” with Pakisatn. Who is in control? Army, ISI, Giliani, Zardari ?

    - “religious fundamentalism” on both sides. I always marvel at your equivocating both– just for once, admit there are real bad elements on that side..We may have bad too, they have not risen to that level of “sophistication/internationalization”.. So, please

    - Pak army always considered India as the existential threat, long before Afghanistan.. So, what we do in Afghanistan is immaterial. It just adds another layer. .

    - I personally do not think Army/ISI can put the genie back. Both are symbiotically connected. One cannot thrive with the other.

    - I do not know whether Haqquani is under direct control of army; but I am sure they have a strong tie. And I believe they are more of religious extremists than “mercenaries”.. The leader Jalaluddin went through surgery to remove a shell from his body without anesthesia, because of some stupid extreme religious Muslim belief..

    - There are only three things that should be done 1) denuke them using whatever strategies including any deals with US or even with Israel 2) tight control of border 3) targeted assassination of bad elements either with US or alone..as long as drones are there we should give our list to US to target. Our RAW agents should be empowered to atke out bad actors if they can. Chidambaram’s statement that we know where Dawood is, but Pakstan will not allow /will not take us to him.. is just deplorable

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Your different perspective is mostly refreshing. That is one reason why I like reading you, even when I find myself holding a different perspective to yours.

    I will respond to you point by point, you have made a lot of effort and it merits a proper serious response.

    1. Constructive Engagement: I am sure that this is already going on, behind the scene. I understand that it may be made difficult because of the way the power is organised in Pakistan.

    2. I believe that the nature of Relgious Fundamentalism is exactly the same, every where. The difference is between the degree of radicalisation and converting that into harmful activity. Here I ACKNOWLEDGE that the Religious Fundamentalist Organisations in Pakistan are a lot more radicalised and active than their counterpart in India. No one is more glad that is the case than I am. I condemn all forms of religious fundamentalism, and certainly recognise that it is dangerously active in PAKISTAN. Taliban, Jaish, Let are all rubbish organisations we need to counter.

    3. Yes you are right that the PA had considered India as an EXISTENTIAL threat before Afghanistan. But lately US trying to give India a greater share of influence in Afghanistan as magnified that scenario. Pakistan feels India is trying to surround it.

    4. Haqqani’s do have a strong tie with the PA/ISI, but they are angling for a seat on the negotiating table in their own right and not as some ones proxy.

    5. De Nuking will be good, but not very easy. As mentioned before several times.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Ravi and Pankaj

    We know the symptoms, we know the disease too.
    The question is cure/prevention (we know that too) and the most important who will be the doctor?

    However,
    1) Isn’t it asking for too much to expect the fundamentalist forces /sympathisers to stop funding these renegade organisations? .

    2) Another fundamental point to consider whether the patient is willing to be cured

    I see no evidence in support.

    3) Doctor Who?

    Now I am doing some loud thinking – Pakistan needs a Gandhi or a Mandela, who would be able to rally the population and tell the ISI/PA on their face – enough is enough, now go back to the barracks.

    4) The ISA/PA knows that we are not the main and existential threat to Pakistan. It is just bogey to corner major share of the country’s funds for themselves for their nefarious activities and business interests. It all boils down to money and the influence that accompanies it. Power and influence through the barrel of the gun doesn’t pay – One cannot have influence and power over a dead person.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    You may be right on (4). ISI/PA obviously wants to get a major share of money and keep it. However, it can be done without putting India as the “existential ” threat.

    The issue is that many generations of Pakisatnis, esp after Zia Al Huq, have been brought up being taught that there is no commonality with India, they are different race, they do not share anything with the ancient civilization, that India should be destroyed etc. Their text books are like Saudi Arabia’s where they say jews are blood drinkers, they should be killed etc. So, it will be difficult to put things back.

    You are right– they will need a truth teller, a Gandhiji

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    “You may be right on (4). ISI/PA obviously wants to get a major share of money and keep it. However, it can be done without putting India as the “existential ” threat”

    There is no existential threat to Pakistan. If they say India is not the one, then there is no iota of justification for their demands.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I am sure you have read my response to Gopi.

    Additionally, I would like to comment upon, does the patient want to be treated.

    I am of the opinion that it does.

    Who would not like stability, growth and prosperity, which India has proven is possible.

    In the long game the Pakistan society took a wrong turn under Zia Ul Huq and is now finding it difficult to get off it.

    The Saudi are not being helpful. However, the reverberations of Arab spring have still to stop.

    Today concession to women of Saudi, tomorrow who knows what.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    “Additionally, I would like to comment upon, does the patient want to be treated.

    I am of the opinion that it does.”

    I am not so sure. When the going is so good, why bother to get oneself admitted to a hospital and spoil all the fun outside?

    ———

    The changes in Saudi Arabia will take ages – the hold of the religious leaders is too strong and overwhelming. It is religion religion at every step of the way.

    ———
    I agree, the wrong turn taken by Zia-ul-Haq.
    really messed it up.

    However, there seems to be no signs of any course correction.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I am not sure if the going is realy as good, as you may think. Pakistan is ingesting empty calories, eventually it will stop thriving and start to wither. To get into real development it needs to join the world, which at present it is unable to.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I was alluding to the powers-that-be (especially the ISI/PA) in Pakistan and not the aam admi on the sadak, they do not count.

    engrich Reply:

    saudis are changing the laws.their previous tough laws were to control tribal revolt.need of hour.saudi arabia progressed in every field.they have best of road,infrastructre health& education system system,only in riad they builting a girls college spendig 15 billion rial for 50000 girl student.saudia is backward society.cannot offord to have european laws.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I am happy to read your analysis and agree with you.
    I hope, I understand you as where you are coming from. we agree on many points and disagree on some, but that is the spirit of a discussion. No body should try to browbeat some dissenting opinions. Light is one but passing through prism of discussion, various hues emerge, but once passed through, light should become one colour again, except, that some body is trying to paint that light in black colour.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    Much appreciated. and I agree 100%. It will be delight to discuss issues with you.

    I only wish some of your fellow travellers were as sensitive and considerate as you (mind you I am not asking for any kid-glove treatment) . When they cross the limits – no one volunteers to tell them – hey listen buddy, thats just not done. On the contrary I have been asked to lay off – very strange. If there is no volunteer, no problem, I can handle the situations myself.

    I have said these many times earlier. I do not expect everyone to hold the same views and opinions as mine and would be appalled if it were so – what a dull place this planet would be. All I look forward is civilised debates – discuss the issues and do not attempt to shoot the messenger. I would not hesitate to return the fire in case of the latter – as you must have seen on this blog itself.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    it is anytime better to be a fellow traveller of Dr.Pankaj than of Ravi the jihadi fundoo.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Was your response an attempt to travel from your own irrelevance to relevance or just “time pass” – as you did not add anything substantial or meaningful to the topic on hand nor said anything new?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Neither have you ‘enriched’ the blog with your “profound, substantial and meaningful” contributions. If supporting the jihadi is your idea of “adding” to the topic, please carry on.

    Anonymous Reply:

    There you are showing your intelligence deficit – the fact that you cannot even distinguish between relevance or irrelevance – my posts may not be “profound, substantial and meaningful”, but they are always relevant. In your case, they are neither profound, substantial and meaningful nor relevant. Viva la difference.

  • Anonymous

    ————————————————————————————————–
    Here is Ravi, the criminal Pak peddler, Anti-India propogandist , accusing India of Pakistan states’s hatred of India.
    This is what he says
    ————————————————————————————————-

    “2. To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. …..”

    So India is responsible for Pakistan’s criminality, venality and hatred of india, manifest in numerous terrorist organizations it arms and promotes ?
    Regarding Afganistan, so what are India’s sinister ‘aspirations’ that it must suspend to placate the criminal entity of Pakistan born out of Jinnah’s communal hatred ?

    India’s policy in Afganistan is simple. India would like to see a non-criminal, non-jihadi, non-terrorist government ( that means non-taliban ) government in Afganistan that cannot play host to hijackers like that of Indian airlines Kandhar hijacking. We dont want Islamic savages promoting terrorist from Kabul. That’s the same goal as rest of the civilized world has. However, to promote India friendly government, India is not sending criminal terrorists or forces into Afganistan like Pakistan does. India is using positive inducements , like financial aid in reconstruction, to promote relatively civilized government in Kabul.

    Only a criminal, shameless Pak peddler would argue things like ‘Indis needs to suspend its aspirations’ in Kabul to placate the criminal Pak army/ISI. This is the same fraudulent, propogandist allegation that Pak army/ISI makes against India. This Ravi is the same thug who seems Hindu fundamentalism everywhere but sees problems with India’s policy of favouring non-Taleban, non-Islamic-fundamentalist govt in Kabul.
    Only a shameless charlatan and a duplicitious propogandiost would make such an argument.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Ravi, when I spoke to Manohar, it was man to man.
    Please do not butt in from the side like a zenana, from behind a veil.

    You are upset with me because I reminded everyone that in the company of ramavtar-engerich-tajender, you had indulged in a week long slugfest with many others which had culminated in your hurling obscenity against bhagwan Ram.

    You had subsequently been rebuked by me, Balwinder praaji and others – when they had asked you to leave. You had replied with a single word- ‘ Balwinder, gone ‘

    I shall post the exchange in the new blog. Balwinder surely u remember ?

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    sorry Manohar when u read the exchange only then u will realise the damage done by ramavtar-engerich-tajender and others. The turning point occured when he insulted the memory of our dead commandoes in 2611 with vile language.
    Balwinder then single handedly led the campaign which lasted days to expel him. All of us were in support except for Ravi.
    MANOHAR, I blog a lot on Pak newspapers like PTH, Express Tribune and Dawn. They expel you for obscenity double quick

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The intent of a blogger is what matters.
    I may criticize Indian policies or society vehemently on a certain issue, but arguably no one will doubt my intent. People are smart.

    Then there are bloggers like Tajinder, Sal ( both some of the vilest Pakistanis to have abused the freedom afforded by the blog to attack Hinduism and india is vilest language possible ) , Ravi ( who tries hard to hide anti-India propoganda , couched in agony for any rape that happens in India , if the victim is a dalit and makes arguments similar to criminal Pak ISI/army . If you want an excuse for Saudi/Pak criminality, just ask him ) and then there is the no-substance, cut-and-paste Shan, whose ability to produce trash on this blog rivals that of Tajinder and Sal.

    The derision, that those 4 have invited on this blog, has been hard earned by them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    I am sorry to point out, but you are bajaaoing your bean in front of a bhains which can see only one side of an issue, like Manohar, who does enjoy supporting the likes of fake Ravi and fake Ram Autar, two Pakistanis masquerading as Hindus/Sikhs and Indians.

    When Vinod Sharma came up with a new order blog, it was supposed to filter posts like the ones by Tajender T.urd, but it is all in intent only, not in action.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well there are some rare bloggers who end up like Pakistanis who love the “positive” comments on Pakistan by DiggVijay Singh in tribune, unable to comprehend the intent or sarcasm.
    You cannot prevent dumb bloggers from blogging. Can you ?

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    See what I mean.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    1) A question –

    After the damage by X or ramavtar or whoever (who cares), did our respect and gratefulness for any our heroes diminish in our heart? Did we forget the sacrifices made them? I am sure the answer is no. I have humbly suggested – ignore him – he will wither away. By abusing no purpose is ever served (bolnewaale kaa munh kharaab hotaa hai) – I wish Shenoy and Rajeev would understand that, but then………

    kis kis kaa munh band karvaaoge?

    As they say – let the barking dogs bark. BTW, there are some more on this blog, like one just below, who imagines someone is a buffalo and he is … and has proceeded to gleefully stretch his vocal chords. I see such sights everyday on the streets. I will not take cognizance.

    2) The Pakistani newspapers expel double quick, so? You want us to be like the Pakistanis, who you hate with all your might? Sorry, I do not wish to ape the Pakistanis, do you?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    You do not have to.

    I remember it clearly. You do not mention that I acknowledged as well as apologised for it.

    Balwinder has also said, on more than one occasion, that since that unfortunate incident, I have not blasphemed at all.

    You did not remember that or if you did you cared not to mention.

    You have many a times chastised me, but never BV Shenoy. Even after I explicitly pointed out that your are one sided umpire, admonishing one side and not the other.

    I am sure you read Rajeev’s submission, every blog trying to incite other bloggers against me. You silence on that is deafening.

    What irks you the most, is that I do not capitulate to your presumed hegemony and that I challenge you.

    As have both Ashish and Shan.

    What you revel in is the cacophony of Wah Wah from sycophantic admirers of you.

    I will be gob smacked if you respond to this, as you have not on many previous occasions.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Today is 2nd October a Gandhi Jayanti. Today morning when I put on my TV
    almost all new channels were showing something about Mahatma Gandhi, Surprisingly I did not see on any channel anyone mentioning another great son
    of India who was also born on 2nd October. – LAL BAHADUR SHASHTRI -
    When I was in school I would always listen to a song on this day which mentions
    both these great souls but havent heard this song since very long time.

    Aaj hai do october kaa din
    aaj ka din hai bara mahaan
    aaj ke din do phool khile the
    jinse mahaka HINDUSTAN
    ek ka naam hai Bapu Gandhi
    aur ek Lal Bahadur hai
    ek ka naara Aman
    aur ek kaa Jai Jawan Jai Kisan.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    mohan

    Lal Bahadur was a “kisan’s” PM.. Honest leader.
    His death bought us Mrs Gandhi!!!!!
    Sometimes it is an interesting game– what if, ?
    How the history would have been different if he did not die in Tashkent.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Yes, history would have definetely different but alas …..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Mohan,

    Lal Bahadur Shastri, more of a second generation leader than the first, was diminutive in physical stature, but a giant in his status in India’s history. After Nehru’s accepting defeats at the hands of Pakistan and China, Shastri gave India, at that time wallowing in its abject defeat, a great fight back, a steely resolve not to surrender to the arm-twisting by the US-UK combine on behalf a half-defeated Pakistan

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    I agree.

    The fact is Mahatma Gandhi has become such a towering figure, what chance others! This in no way should be construed as denigrating Lal Bahadur Shastri. I have all the respect and highest regards for our founding fathers and the first generation of leaders of independent India and he was one of them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    Books, writers, emperors, leaders etc get constantly reexamined, some remain all time favourites, or always in reverence and awe; I am sure Mahathmaji will be a diamond quality even after 1000 years.. It is even possible a future people will consider him like God, just like Jesus of Bethlehem is considered now.

    Lal Bahadur was on the stage only for a brief period; and that too after the charismatic Nehru who was a colossus. Shastri was a small man physically too. I was in my nineth grade when he was made the PM. There was a lot of loose ends behind his death in Tashkent — this fruc——ng Pakistani/Kashmir issue has been vexing us for too long.

    May be great purpose-driven leaders are born/made when conditions demand. The environment, leadership of Gandhiji etc provided fertile ground for selfless, highly qualified leaders, men of integrity.

    I think some of the conditions now also have similar potential to create transformational leaders. Believe me, in my 61 years, i have not seen as many young smart people who really are committed to nation building. I am really optimistic of the future of India, its future leadership (not in the immediate short term), and its future directions.

    I read about Aadhar, the identity project. Along with Nandan, it seems there are lots of committed young men and women working on this – these people left real high paying careers because they really feel Aadhar has the transformational power. This old man cried when i read about these boys and girls. And the boys and girls who were with Anna.

    The conditions and environment are apt for great leaders. My sense is that Modi will harness this; and he will do a decent job and create a framework; and a dynamic young person will come after that.

    Leadership does not mean political leadership alone — there are tremendous initiatives and projects going on, led by great young leaders.

    Mahathmajis dream of self sufficient villages etc will be fulfilled. Sooner, than later.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I do not wish Gandhi to be treated like a God.

    They will keep him locked in a temple, pay homage when allowed to and forget all about his message and philosophy.

    There are millions of followers of Shirdi Sai Baba (he too has been put in a temple and “only seek his blessings” for their own good), but how many of them follow his teachings?

    engrich Reply:

    gopi jansanghi,

    u people killed him.always abused him now started worshipping him.are u not a chamoleons.u are using his name to reach the corridors of power.
    ghandhians do not perpetuate killings.any derogatory adjective is less for these vile and wickeds.
    u people carry all the qualities of fascists.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    ” Mahathmajis dream of self sufficient villages etc will be fulfilled. Sooner, than later. ”

    AMEN.

    engrich Reply:

    jansanghis are distributing sweets.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mohan,
    I am sure you know the reason.
    It makes sense to promote the brand Gandhi.. it has a rub off effect on the first family brand ruling India.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    DiggVijay Singh.
    There is a blogger in Tribune, who goes by that name. His postings are full of well camouflaged sarcasm, but most Pakistanis, fed on constant anti-India propoganda, take his comments on face value and end up congratulating him as the only sane person in India. This posting by him is pretty funny.

    Diggvijay Singh ( protesting any criticism of Zaid Hamid )

    21 hours ago

    “..
    Madame, please don’t conspire to shut down shop for Sir Zaid Hamid. Ever since Leonardo da Vinci, he has been the most multi-faceted and versatile talent the world has ever seen. He is a black-belt in Taekwondo, an equestrian champion, an authority on the works of Allama Muhammed Iqbal, former sidekick of a New Age Prophet, a guerilla-war veteran familiar with the rugged terrains of Afghanistan, a global security analyst, an Austrian-school economist, a diligent student of Islamic, Hindu, Jewish and Freemasonry history and fairy-tales, a top-class exponent of theatrics, and above all, a grandiloquent mesmerizing orator. Most sensible Indian youtubers are in absolute awe of him. I look up to him as a role model. Only a few juvenile Indians, shallow in thoughts and myopic in their outlook, have failed to recognize the blinding genius of this man lying under the veneer of humility and simplicity, his contagiously affectionate smile and his Bolshevik-revolution red cap. I mean, here is a man whose DNA-testing could offer vital clues in evolutionary biology regarding the splitting of the neanderthal and homo sapiens gene pools and we think of setting him aside? We should be listening to him as often and as keenly as we can! I personally don’t mind his Ghazwa- e-Hind at all if India can have a Khalifa as brilliant and talented as Sir Zaid Hamid.”

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All
    Farid Zakaria of CNN just finished an interview with Hina Khar, Pakistan FM, on his show, GPS.
    Actually she came across good, knowledgeable.

    A modern (looking) woman, quite young, beautiful person — This is what she answered Farid on his question on “blasphemy law” :

    This modern looking, young woman answered ” there is nothing wrong with the blasphemy law. There is some fine tuning to be done with its implementation”….

    On his question on why this, why now , who else in the world has something like this in their constitution – “many countries, such as Saudi Arabia”… and after some thinking, “Iceland” …

    It is tough for me to believe that Iceland has a law like that. I am sure, even if there is a law, they are not implementing it with the same rigor like Pakistanis

    Pakistan now will say they are in the company of advanced countries like Iceland!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    There is one more similarity between these two countries .
    Pakistan and Iceland – Both are Bankrupt _

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    But there is a big dissimilarity: Iceland is cold, and also cold to terror, whereas Pakistan is a hotspot for terror. Also, Iceland doesn’t bite the hand that feeds it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Binoy,
    Are you trying to do a “DigVijay Singh of tribune” on this blog by your following comments on Pak foreign minister Hina Khar ?

    This is what she answered Farid on his question on “blasphemy law” :

    This modern looking, young woman answered ” there is nothing wrong with the blasphemy law. There is some fine tuning to be done with its implementation”….

    There is nothing wrong with blasphemy law, only some fine tuning ? Pak civilian government, its foreign office and foreign minister are nothing more than the “begging unit” of pak army/ISI entrusted with the job of collecting alms from other countries. Since, western nations have developed an allergy to giving aid directly to military dictatorships, so Pak has come up with this new arrangement where the military/ISI holds all the power while the civilian administration concentrates on begging and collecting aid for the army/ISI.

    This arrangement has worked well for Pak for last few years.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv
    She is quite pretty and petite and pretty good in answering.
    She did say there is nothing wrong with blasphemy law..and the only issue is the need fro some fine tuning!

    You are right about the civilian/military; who controls whom etc. However, my assessment, after listening to US media is that even the military is not that powerful. These networks like LeT, Hqquani etc have become powers dictating to the army.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ mohan, Binoy, Shenoy and Rajiiv

    iceland mein ice se woh bhi jam jaata hai…

    Pakistan mein fundoos se woh bhi jam jaata hai…

    Toh yeh hai na common link…

    Anonymous Reply:

    The only other country which has in its constitution a blasphemy law like Pakistan’s, apart from Saudi Arabia is Nomansland.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In last couple of posts, Shenoy invariably is mentioning me with lots of colourful adjectives/descriptions attached . He surely must be really mad at me.

    I am still “wondering” – mera qasoor kyaa hai (TIC).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy and Manohar

    I think both of you write reasonable stuff. Shenoy can be entertaining and witty.
    Manohar can be logical and factual.

    As life has it, both are on different sides of the political spectrum.

    To Manohar, I would say… you may hate Shenoy’s stance… but don’t hate the man. Many of us, do enjoy reading his poems. Just dismissing him as an RSS guyetc does not get into the issue that he may just have a different viewpoint in life.

    To Shenoy, I would request, life is about different shades of opinion. SO even if somebody has an opposing view, yet is NOT anti national… well debate it out… with or without, rancour…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    I have never called Manohar anti-national. But, I do try to respond, if not in equal measure, at least in some measure, to what he gives. I do not however claim that I have slapped him, as his friend claims he has me.

    And Sanjay, I also know, having observed them for the last sixty years from close quarters and close contacts, that RSS men, even to the last one, are also not anti-nationals. I have never been a member, but I respect them.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I hope that was a joke.

    Because it is funny.

    Did you not call Sarvarkar as Gurudev. Outside of RSS no one ever says that.

    There are at least half a dozen or so court cases against RSS members. One of them is the murder of another RSS man to shut him up.

    And protested that Sarvarkar is much misunderstood.

    Your desperation is self evident.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have only called Rabindranath Tagore ‘Gurudev”.

    Savarkar is universally called Veer Savarkar.

    where does the possibility of ‘desperation’ arise?

    It is only people with dual identities like you and Tajender, both of who are sometime-mona Sikh, sometime Keshdhari Sikh, sometime-Hindu etc, who are desperate to stick on to this blog.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    1) “Manohar can be logical and factual”.

    Is that the reason for his anger?

    2) “Hate Shenoy’s stance”!

    No I don’t. It is something completely different.

    3) “Different viewpoint”

    See my discussion with Pankaj below.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pakistan’s latest sin– Murder of Rabbani

    Sadaly but not surprisingly Paksitan keeps tumbling down the hill on the road of no return of terrorism.

    Afghanis have furnished proof that their former president, Burnuhuddin rabbani was murdered by Pakistani/ISI terrorists. PM Gilani of Pakistan , while not denying has requested Afhanis not to look into the past and move on…

    Stroy can be read in DAWN

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Only for Shan (others please excuse)

    Now your club is just 2 points above relegation. Sunderland at home won’t be easy either after the international break.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Iswar only, I mean without a regular central defender , Song filling in ,what can you say. really depressing . Now Sagna gone for, god knows how long , Lets hope diaby and vermaalen comes back.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    MANOHAR,

    The moderation policy of 3 Pakistani newspapers is excellent- Pak Tea House, Express Tribune and Dawn. The first 2 in particular block both the email adress and your computer identity number ( is it called IP no) if you abuse a religion or any blogger or use foul language.

    They also ban moronic mile long cut and pastes from Manusmriti or the ‘dark’ areas of Quran.ie, the bit about the prophet lusting after his ‘daughter-in-law’

    They also ban bores who do not stick to topic. haha, this is trus as some of my friends have complained.

    I love that atmosphere and I have got excellent feedback from most writers and most moderate Pakistanis. Only diehard Jinnah worshipper on PTH-YLHAMDANI- has occ banned some of my comments – like – ‘ if Jinnah was to be born today, he would love to join me for a drink of Amrut whisky as we would look across the border and he would wonder where his creation went so terribly wrong ‘

    haha

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    I then posted the same comment on Raza Rumi’s blog and it got good feedback

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Among the ones you mention, I like Express tribunes moderation policies, though they have flaws like inconsistency and more tolerance for pro-Pak comments. In tribune, I should say 1/2 my comments get published ( babloo, analyst ) and 1/2 do not . I think it depends on the moderator on duty.
    I just posted a comment that said ” Hindus, Jews and Christians are conspiring against the greatest Islamic state on earth, Pakistan”.
    It got promptly published. But with subtle mixture of sarcasm and humour, you can get most of your comments published.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc
    I have no problems if you like the moderation policies of their newspaper sites.

    If we have to apply moderation, say on this blog, it has to applied equally to all – two or three other bloggers (you know who they are) other than ramavtar or whatever would be the first ones to disciplined or given marching orders.

    Basically, I am against any form of censorship – I would like to know all shades of opinion. Isn’t it an advantage to know where ramavtar stands or what his views are -however despicable they may be?

    Our country bans books and films on pressure from some loony and crackpot group(s), who claim it offends/insults their sensibilities and/or is against Indian culture/values (my god) and the government of the day succumbs. Pathetic indeed.

    Moderation yes, if applied to all and not selectively.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    There is a punjabi bramhin or PUNDOO , blogger here who is a PIMP in usa . This guy has a visceral hatred for anything muslim , for to look into the mirror will expose , how many members in his family has been involved in raping and dehumanising dalits . This bugger has written as many original words in this blog as his family has given alms to a dalit. This is a pest , a vermin who thankfully is out of india .Strangely despite living in WB for 25 yrs , not a grain of civility and sophistication of bengalee culture has rubbed on him , he remains the PAPPI culture , crude , uneducated , gross , and is as fun as a DOG’S ****. HIS NAME IS RAJIIIV

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am glad that someone so willingly provides evidence justifying comments posted by me and others about Shan/4darnleysteer7 . I am sure he will continue to work hard to keep proving me and others right , everyday.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are like a ***** who prides on her chastity. Your postings are just that , only a HINDU VERSION OF TALIBAN that you are , can produce such unadulterated trash..You are an utter disgrace , India is better off without your physical presence , SO WILL BE THIS BLOG

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dr Mishra

    Having sent a grenade in my direction you seem to have ignored, as predicted two responses on the very subject that you initiated.

    I am sure people can judge for themselves.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————-
    ~~~ as u would notice… THE DOG OUT HERE REPRESENTS ME ! :) ~~
    —————————————————————————————————————–

    Always loyal to friends, causes and country. That is what is me…

    @ Dr Mishra

    Thanks for remembereing me at the world Punjabi Conference. Wish I was there! Ur sailing video was inspirational. While I may no claim to be a master of the seas… someday hope to learn scuba and sailing… and disc over the scum Osama’s body underwater.

    @ Shenoy

    the poety was inspirational…

    @ Ravi

    We are destined to be enemies for ever… Wish you could stop being the Fundoo no 2 of my book, the Three fundoos . T U R D Tsajendar, of course being the Fundoo no 1. Wish u could reform and grow a walrus :) … but then you would be happier with Osama’s style.. :0

    @ Ashish,

    just followed a bit of ur comments on twitter… hmmm interesting !

    @ Binoy,

    Dont get too impressed by hina’s looks. The gora rang which is pf premium value in India, comes naturally in areas denied of the sun in winter. Half of my relatives are from that belt. Though they came to India as refugees. However many of them do display tendencies of being misogynists…

    Anyway The Paksitani strategy has always been to have loqacious, eloquont spokesmen in the foreign office, as compared to India where we sometimes get SM Krishana’s as foreign ministers… who would rather be shy and silent. And nondescript…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vijay

    If the price of your friendship is for me to STOP being true to my feelings and inclinations. Then that is the price I am un-willing to pay.

    What you treat me as, is within your control.

    However, please do tell me how will I know, when you are being friendly or are being an enemy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ravi

    Raj kapoor ki film mera naam joker mein ek Hindustani kutta hai jiska naam Moti hai. Vijay is that moti. Always willing to bite whoever attacks Hindustan … simple as that….

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vijay

    कहता है जोकर सारा ज़माना आधी हकीक़त आधा फसाना

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ RAVI

    That is why I say

    Chashma uttaron …
    phir dekho yaaraon
    Pakistan wahi hai…
    Fundoos ki dastaan….

    Ravi Reply:

    Na tuk mili na matlab. Kya aaj desi dharra chal raha hai.

    AshishC Reply:

    Vijay,
    my twiter handle @canindya is for all sorts of things.. politics, general gyaan, cricket, chess, food, picking up a fight…
    sadly, I have been not too active lately on twitter.. was sucking in a lot of time.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    we sometimes get SM Krishana’s as foreign ministers… who would rather be shy and silent. And nondescript…
    and ignorant and forgetful and chicken-hearted and forgetting to pay his hotel bills and more caring for his wig than his country’s interests.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    Would you pass some hints about RSS literature? Where I can read that? I would much appreciate, if you could pass me the link or your source of information. To my mind, they claim to represent India and Indians, not only Hindus. let us see, what you are talking.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    Here is your first link. If you are keen, there are many others which lead out of this.

    ….- http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-puniyani020605.htm

    It will be interesting to know how the source, authors, and everything associated with this, will be condemned.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The end of the url got missed.

    …comm-puniyani020605.htm

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dear Ravi,
    you believe Ram Puniyani is gospel? Now I understand everything about where you are coming from.

    Ravi Reply:

    YES I DO

    AshishC Reply:

    Ah, my friend; you only read to confirm your own world view.. tee hee hee!

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ashish;
    You mischief monger!! and this devilish laughter? Be considerate,please.

    Ravi Reply:

    He was considerate, towards the RSS and its chamcha’s like you

    AshishC Reply:

    I am what in Bengali idiom is referred to as a “looj character”- kabhi koi mujhe RSS kahe, kabhi communist

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Sorry Ashish;
    Very plebian. Tum karo to Raslila, hum karen to Character Dhila. this is for Ravidasia.

    Ravi Reply:

    In your case character is not the only thing that is dhila. It seems some where there is also a SCREW dhila

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aashish,

    That was good one.

    Ravi Reply:

    Well at least I do not do the following.

    1. He is not telling the truth about RSS because he is a Muslim.

    2. He is not telling the truth about the RSS because he is a communist.

    3. She is not telling the truth about the RSS because she is an American Jewess.

    4. America is no longer the power that it used to be, so who cares if it denounces the RSS as a Terrorist Organisation.

    5. US only made the RSS a terrorist organisation because of the PAKISTAN Lobby.

    6. They have an axe to grind because they are JUN type.

    7. Professor Asis Nandi is a lier. RSS is not a Terrorist Organisation.

    8. Wendy Doniger -s a white woman what does she know about Hinduism and the RSS.

    9. Sarvarkar was only young when he said those dicredited paragraphs.

    10. Oh sorry, he did not tell them at they were a translation of some one else’s work.

    11. Hitler was a loh purush.

    I can go on on on on Ariston.

    To know the real RSS you have to read not a critic, but a eulogist.

    Ha bleeding ha

    AshishC Reply:

    Ravi,
    your reaction was beyond my wildest expectation! Loved it.
    Just curious; sometime back, in one moment of candour you let me know that you suffer from memory lapses and blamed your age for it. But, now that you have carefully chronicled this above list; fear not. Senility and/ or dementia are far away!

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ashish;
    This guy from berkshire talking abot Wendy Niger? Has he read the book? it is in my library and Chicago is half an hour flight from my place. he is very selective and will look for only fault lines.
    I am RSS and I am Communist. But both are Indians.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj, I have a personal copy sit6ting next to me. As is The Clash Within, which I suggest that you read.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    http://www.stopfundinghate.org/resources/rssprimer.htm

    http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/Fascism.India.htm#MADHAV%20SADASHIV%20GOLWALKAR

    The links provided do not speak favourably about the RSS.

    You should read the views from the other side by its supporters and apologists to get a balanced view. Google M S Golwalkar and also RSS to get list of links.

    I am sure you will be able to decipher what RSS actually is, after reading several points of view. Then we can discuss the RSS, if you so desire.

    Good luck.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thanks Manohar;
    I will certainly look at links provided by you but not in a hurry. The previous link given to me took me to some Binu mathew from kerala, a known communist strong hold and left leaning populace. Ram puniyani, appears to be an educated person, but that is not sufficient. He may have his personal perspective. He has every right to express them but that can not be taken as gospel truth. I had gone to wikipedia for RSS and found many things there. It is a mixed reading, no body is incrimination RSS for violence and other henious things. There is a long list of references, and I may go to some.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So you become the first one to denounce the author. Typical RSS tactict

    How so predictable.

    I guess you wish to read, just to re-inforce your firmly held prejudices.

    Shame on you.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ek Besharam aadmi doosaron ko kah raha hai’ shame on You? typical of a leaguee.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ek Besharam jihadi doosron ko prejudice ke baaare mein samajha raha hai!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    I provided the links. Rest is up to you who to believe and who not to. As Ravi mentioned – do not shoot the messengers. Of course, it will be a mixed reading – two sides of a coin. Sorry, If I sound patronising, the trick is to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    The only point I would make – you must take Wikipedia with a large spoonful of salt. Anybody can write anything there – no checks, no cross references, nothing – no one the wiser about its authenticity.

    PS: RSS and violence – enough incidents in the last 20 years or so. No need to go too far in the past.

  • Anonymous

    @ Sanjay

    Just checked out Pakistan’s role in the murder of Rabbani. It was interesting to note how Rabbani was understanding the Indian way of reconicling differences by studying the Manipur situation. Maybe that triggered pakistan’s murderous reaction.

    I think we are living next to a neighbour which is showing the worst traits of fascism. Much of our defences rest on the stances thed US takes, In case the US moves out of Afghanistan, we should expect more 26/11’s. Parliament attacks and kandharars.

    The UN has no way of doing a nasbandi of Pakistan. And in Sm Krishana, Amul Baby and Digviansh SIngh, we may end up inviting trouble at our own doorsteps… to a larger extent than it exists.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The greater the trouble in Pakistan, the less resources it has to promote and finance terrorism into India. Its as simple as that.
    The reason , why at least the foreign office of Pakistan is pouring out less diatribe against India than usual is the economic and strategic trouble they find themselves in. Period.
    The more economically stable Pakistan, the greater its ability to finance every possible criminality.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiiv

    What amazes me is the truth that despite the world looking at it, and despite the drone attacks , the inner core of the Pakistani state still supports Let type of jehadis without fail. Most terror attacks all over the world emnate from Pakistan. And it is not willing to change its strategy…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi,
    Extract from your response below ….
    “To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. This nat present is a more potent ingredient than Kashmir is. It has successfully put Kashmir on the back burner.”
    I am curious myself about reasons of our own presence in Afghanistan. Why are we there ? For what ? Somehow, while the Indo-Pak conflict appears to have shifted stage to Afghanistan , the contours of conflict don’t appear very clear.
    p.s. : Would love to have a bit of Pakistani perspective as well on this.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mahesh

    Earlier on, I had made a comment that the CURRENT conflict, meaning in the last few months, since the US has decalred its intention to quit, the war is all about who will have what power and influence in the Post War Afghanistan.

    US wants to give India a greater role than it had before the war. This they want to do precisely to wean Afghanistan off its near total reliance on Pakistan.

    Pakistan sees this as US meddling in its own back yard, further more it sees as India establishing greater hegemony in South East Asia.

    Pakistan is also worried that India would have surrounded it both on its Eastern as well as its Western Border.

    The rest as they say is Bumb Visbhot, and the Haqqani Network.

    I will let some Pakistani give you their perspective, mine comes from Royal Berkshire.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dear Ravi,
    geo-politics is a massively multiplayer game.
    That said, if we simplify this, for the sake of modeling to a game of chess between India and Pakistan…
    In chess, you can’t stay in your corner or your side of the board and defend and defend.. you also have to make the other side bleed; constantly pose a threat, make forays- if your opponent is planning a break down the King’s side, you need to calculate whether repulsing the attack is going to yield dividends or starting your own push down the Queen side or a diversionary fire somewhere else is better.
    I do not know if India is serious about Baluchistan (diversionary foray) or Afghanistan- Indian Queenside push to counter Pakistan’s King-side offensive in Kashmir. But, if they are, there is nothing wrong in it.
    If Pakistan is an adversary, I for one believe they are, then we would be well advised to deny them strategic depth.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The other side of the other side, is us

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Mahesh,
    Assuming yours is a serious question and not an effort to get Pak criminal/ISI perspective from Ravi, here is the answer

    “India’s policy in Afganistan is simple. India would like to see a non-criminal, non-jihadi, non-terrorist government ( that means non-taliban ) government in Afganistan that cannot play host to Pak terrorists and hijackers like that of Indian airlines Kandhar hijacking. We dont want Islamic savages promoting terrorism from Kabul. That’s the same goal as rest of the civilized world has. However, to promote India friendly government, India is not sending criminal terrorists or forces into Afganistan like Pakistan does. India is using positive inducements , like financial aid in reconstruction, to promote relatively civilized government in Kabul.

    Only a criminal, shameless Pak peddler would argue things like ‘India needs to suspend its aspirations’ in Kabul to placate the criminal Pak army/ISI. This is the same fraudulent, propogandist allegation that Pak army/ISI makes against India. “

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiiiv;
    I still would llike to address you as Rajiv. I read mahesh’s comment 2 or 3 times as it was a very well constructed question. Full of innocense and full of mischief. obviously, Ravi, deflected it, saying that some pakistani should answer this Ha. the question was asked to the rightperson for the pak perspective.
    India was advised to not go to Afghanistan, so as to assugae fear of pakistan about encirclement. keeping Kashmir cool was also thrown in as an inducement. Some body is more concerned about pakistanis worries than india’s worries. this much is obvious.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Is it.

    I guess in your worls 2+2 is 22.

    No wonder you became a Dr

    Anonymous Reply:

    Would it make sense for India to complain and say that China should not have consulates in Pakistan because it amounts to encircling India ?
    China’s two greatest “all weather clients” are Pakistan and burma. Would it make sense for India to cry that China is encircling India ?

    Unlike China, india is not exporting nuclear technology, missiles to Afganistan. In fact, india is to be applauded for not sending forces to Afganistan or arming it against Pakistan.
    The most India has offered is that if Afganistan wants, India will train its police and internal security forces in India. The pace and number of it to be determined only by Afganistan.

    It would require an idiot ISI peddler to complain about Indian relations with Afganistan.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiv;
    For certain people, China encircaling India is alright. Shri Lanka, Burma, Nepal, Pakistan and now claim to Arunachal is alright. brotherly help to Afghanistan is encircaling pakistan??? what a Joke.

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj they are perpetuators of 600plus anti-muslim riots in india.rss represents high caste hindu only,this nonsense can be asked only by jansanghi.are they fighting for justice of riot victims.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    What you are stating are part of strategic goals. The kind of Indian deployment currently ongoing in Afghanistan , coupled with Indian diplomatic overtures to Pakistan , makes me think there is something outweighing the strategic military interests.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Vijay,
    Among the few infinites, One is dumbness of US policy towards Pakistan and the capacity of Pakistan’s duplicity and ability to defraud others.
    Pakistan started financing terrorism into Kashmir and punjab in 1980-ties, as billions of dollars were pumped into Pakistan by Raegan administration in support of militants fighting soviet rule in Afganistan. Those 8-9 years, saw great economic growth rate in Pakistan and simultaneously its ability to finance terrorist groups.

    An economically weak Pakistan, surviving on its own , instead of alms and donations from all over the world, is far more likely to follow responsible, sane policies for its own survival than a Pakistan that is economically strong because then it would just free up resources for the greatest criminal entity on earth to cause more trouble..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Mahesh

    Let me answer this one for you. All because my sister happens to be stationed in Afghanistan on a UN mission and comes to stay back at our house every fortnight, flying in from Kabul on saturday and flying back on Monday morning.

    a) Afghanis are pretty simple people who were fooled by pakistani’s into believing that their mission in life is to spread Islamic culture. Their numbers too are very very small … about the population of Delhi.

    b) most of them love India… and Bollywood, but time and again Pakistanis tell them they should hate India and love Osama.

    c) this is a region which is dirt poor. Pakistan wants to kill most Afghanis and amalgamate this with Pakistan as its 8th State. the strategic depth story.

    d) Unfortunately India which is so loved out there… haS Little presence as most fo the road contracts and material contracts are with pakistnai companies and US.

    However the democratic centralism, India represents can be the role model of the Afghanis. They hate Pakistan and want India there.

    That is why Pakistan is scared….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Vijay,
    People of Afganistan hate Pakistanis ( and pak peddlers ! ) and Pakistanis know that. Poll after poll confirms that. The border dispute between Af-Pak continues to simmer. Afganistan does not recognize Durand line that gives away large chunks of Pushtoon territory to Pak. In 1947, the only nation to vote against granting UN membership to Pakistan, was Afganistan.
    Even Pak sponsored Taleban government, resisted Pak attempts when Taleban was in power in Kabul, to recognize Durand line.

    Pakistan wants to view Afganistan as its slave nation. Its that criminal mentality that motivates it to object indian relations with Afghans.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    i think the solution lies in Afghanistan for India. If we go back to 1998., Pakistan used Afghanistan as a base for the IC 814 plane hijack.

    in every way, aFGHANISTAN WITH A POPULATION LESS THEN THAT OF HARYANA does not prove a threat to India. In fact most Afghanis fear that they will be forced to merge with Paksitan.

    I think a FM like Jaswant Singh and NOT Krishana woulld call this a god given opportunity….

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Hehehe, hohoho, Mishraji tusi World punjabi conference kya gayey tusi Punjabi jokaan crack karney lagey. Kya Ravi pey tadka daala = Ravi dont swipe at me like a janana from behind a ghungat.
    hehehe, I am laughing so hard I will burst my stitches. Oye Ravi sher da puttar hai to sheran wali gal kiya kar. Why do u need baisakhi and try to chipko with tajender and sha, apni koi hasthi nahin hai? When u talk with docsaheb then dont drag Ashish and otbers into it, stick to topic.
    Ravi ask yourself question, who abuses hindu Gods. Is it Jews of Israel or Shaolin monks, or is it Islamic fascists mainly pakis ?? Pl u answer this question. I may have forgiven u, but rajiiv and shenoy never will. Ab mard ki tarah soch, if u cant live with a SIMPLE jehadi/pakistani taunt, then leave the blog. Rota kyun hai?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Happy to live with any taunt.

    It gives me one more legitimate opportuinty to label Sanghi’s as Crypto Fascist and Saffron Terrorists.

    Do I look like a worried man.

    Janani te Dr Mishra hai, jo sawal kar ke Jawab sunan waste rukya nahin.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Balwinder,
    I think you should have said from “behind a heejab” and not behind a “ghungat”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    At least he did not say from behind Shenoy’s LUNGOAT, then he would have meant you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well who better to know about lungoots than someone like you who has spent his life hiding under Osama’s lungoot and now find’s himself ‘exposed’.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Osma ki lungoat se ISI fundoo chattiayan maare…
    Ang ang uska tapda rehanda… Jihad nu karre ishaare…

    Ravi Reply:

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Phir Tahmadiya sampraday bola.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    War looks like between dhoti and Tahmad.

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj be care ful,

    dhoti khulti hai peeche se tahmat khulta hai aage se.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    engrich’
    much against my inclination, if I come to your level, Bhagne ki jagah nahin milegi. This is my last mail to you.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiv;
    langot or tehmad, Chaar Khano wali.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The bhand is back. Did you see my lines “Even somebody with an IQ that of Balwinder can make out that saui society is stuck at year hizra One”
    THAT WAS MEANT TO BE A COMPLIMENT

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ everyone

    Gnight !!!!

    Just winding up to crash into bed. As usual this blog got out the best in all of us.

    My constant fear is that innocents will die all ovet the workd becasue fo Paksitan’s perfidy and its blind love for idiots like A W Khan who supplied nuclear tech to all who could afford it.

    The US should share part of the blame for winking at Pakistan acquiring this tech. But most of this is also due to China, who tought that a nuclear Pakistan is going to be a good grateful chamacha.

    Not knowing that a nuclear Paksitan will eventually blow up this planet…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Amen

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good Night. You should get a patent on the term “chattiayan maray”. Love that.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    There are people denouncing Savarkar. would like to know why?

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    You sent me a couple of links. went there. some US Organization, purportedly fighting for multicultural and Plurality of India. No known person or respected news agency. As I will not quote Panchjanya, organizer, kalyan for my source, I will not take their opinion in account. they have an agenda and they appear to be a lobbyist. why I, You or any one should take them seriously?? fail to understand. As you have a pronounced opposition to Sangh and other such organization, I would like to have YOUR perspective with evidence, not hearsay.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    As Vinodji will be uploading his new blog today, perhaps we will discuss RSS in the new blog. Always ready for a debate.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    @ Everyone.
    Remember Samir Khan?
    propaganda chief for Alwaki or was he Awlaki? Pakistan has a rich stable of propaganda specialists who operate in different guise. Beware!!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    If that is the best you can do.

    Then you are not worth it.

    If I were you, I would have gone back to my old College and asked for my money back.

    They spectacularly failed you.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ravi;
    You did not tell anything about Savarkar. You are simply saying that my old college has failed me. I am sure, JNU is not your college/ university.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    If I have to tell you about Sarvarkar, then you are beyond the pale.

    Not worth the bother

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    So be it. I never hid. you know, who I am. I have said this in so many words.

  • Anonymous

    For a better day(that is arsenal bouncing back)
    This is addressed to serious bloggers, mahesh, manohar, ravi, binoy ,gopi CLOWNS AND BRAMHINS excluded , except ashish (dad CPM)
    INDIA’S PRESENCE IN AFGANISTAN
    lets first make it clear india hasn’t gone there to make DHARTMA 2, with Fardeen Khan doing his dad number “Tere Chehere mey jo jadu Hai”
    INDIA HAS GONE THERE TO PLAY “THE GREAT GAME” and rightly so .
    There is LOTS AND LOTS OF OIL in CENTRAL ASIA AND CASPIAN SEA , WHICH INDIA JUSTIFIABLY WILL LIKE TO GET HANDS ON.First time in India’s 2000yrs history INDIA IS BEHAVING LIKE A MARD AND NOT A MOUGA.
    India already has a small air base in ? Tajikstan .
    So whatever Ravi alludes to pakistan’s discomfort PAKISTAN CAN STUFF IT.
    As to that AIR HEAD Rajiiiv , the punjabi pundoo actually replace p with a g,
    suggesting that india has gone for innocent puppy love for Afganis , that is his demented brain in a super fast mode.
    Afgans always wanted to come to india , that is the maqsad of all afganis starting from sher Shah,who would like to stay in that hell hole , a barren area.
    the kabuliwala by tagore , made into film by bimal roy.
    King Zarar Shah OPPOSED PAKISTAN’S ENTREE INTO UN IN 1946, the whole of NWFP in pakistan is legitimately belongs to afganistan , WAS CARVED OUT TO CREATE A BUFFER TO PROTECT THE PROPERTY OF BRITISH THAT IS INDIA FROM RUSSIAN ENCROACHMENT.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan (and others contributing to this thread),
    I tend to agree with you partly – to the point of us being in Afghanistan having something more than altruistic motives. As a supporting argument I would like to cite our own history of international diplomacy by and large leaning on UN mandate as preference rather than unilateral actions.
    That leaves us looking at competition with Pakistan in Afghan region.
    Here – IMHO – the competition appears more for non-military purpose with militaristic overtones. As a supporting argument – I would like to cite our own deployment in Afghansitan that is less militaristic in nature plus our own diplomatic overtures towards Pakistan for a “peace / settlement” in Afghanistan. The question that still remains un-answered is – for what ? Oil ? Mineral resources ? Access to Iran ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Mahesh, IMHO , all of the reasons you cite. The problem with pakistan is this Kabiley ke Sardar kind of tribal approach. China is pouring money like hell in srilanka to buy influence , india is countering by pouring more money , training for srilankans. and that’s fine. In fact China had pledged to invest something like 500 million to extract minerals from afganistan .
    I don’t think anybody has the right to stop that , nor is it desirable.
    The problem is with the pakistani HUKUMAT. My feeling is there is NO PAKISTAN , it is PUNJAB AND ITS COLONIES. These punjabi FEUDAL landowners , are what they are . Coupled with this is the army which is also OVERWHELMINGLY PUNJABI. So this is typical PUNJABI behaviour, which one might come across in India time to time , aggressive , irrational , STUPID HYPERSENSITIVITY of PRIDE AND HONOUR.
    In fact incredible it may sound Musharaff, if he was at the helm , LOT OF RAPPROACHMENT would have taken place. This is the opinion of no other than the BJP Ram Jethmalani, who infact blames Vajpayee for not seizing the oppertuinity.This encirclement business is pure BS. In fact if India had a garrison in kabul , that will be permanent hostage. Nobody is preventing pakistan to spread its influence or preferably buy it , in Afganistan , BUT PAKISTAN WANTS TO TURN KABUL INTO A CHATTEL , A SATELLITE STATE.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Agree 100%

  • Ravi

    Ashish

    Well at least I do not do the following.

    1. He is not telling the truth about RSS because he is a Muslim. They have an axe to grind and we don’t.

    2. He is not telling the truth about the RSS because he is a communist. They have a bigger axe to grind and we don’t.

    3. She is not telling the truth about the RSS because she is an American Jewess.

    4. America is no longer the power that it used to be, so who cares if it denounces the RSS as a Terrorist Organisation.

    5. US only made the RSS a terrorist organisation because of the PAKISTAN Lobby.

    6. They have an axe to grind because they are JUN type, and are for sale.

    7. Professor Asis Nandi is a liar. RSS is not a Terrorist Organisation.

    8. Wendy Doniger -s a white woman what does she know about Hinduism and the RSS.

    9. Sarvarkar was only young when he said those discredited paragraphs.

    10. Oh sorry, he did not tell them at they were a translation of some one else’s work.

    11. Hitler was a loh purush

    Typical RSS tactic, don’t like the message discredit the author.

    I can go on on on on Ariston.

    To know the real RSS you have to read not a critic, but a eulogist.

    Ha bleeding ha

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    For the indian bloggers , ravi’s lines “go on and on and on Ariston”This
    is from an Ad of an washing mchine made by an italian company ariston

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    How very true.

    Shoot the messenger is one their first lines of “defence”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    the jihadi hardly needs to be told about ’shooting’, he can do it even in sleep, because he has been trained for that.

    As for you you should rather sing, than talk about shooting. Here is the right kind of song for you:

    खींचो कमान मारो जी बाण
    रुत है जवान ओ मेरे प्राण
    - रुक क्यों गये?
    तुमने चोरी कर ली कमान
    कैसे मारूं प्रीत का बाण, गुइयां
    .नैन सो नैन नाही मिलाओ -
    नैन सो नैन नाही मिलाओ -

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I lost the message, as I do not have Devanagari fonts – so you can sing that song on my behalf to yourself and dance if you like.

    In any case, there you are – shooting the messenger(s) – I did not ask you to reconfirm my statement of fact.

    Kyoon logon kaa waqt barbaad karte ho, yaa yeh bhi “Time Pass” kaa chakkar hai?

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I am no gangster but Shenoy has scored here. Khincho Kaman maro ji Baan. Wah.

  • Anonymous

    Will some patriotic indian blogger enlighten me.
    I was watching NDTV , the big fight on saturday. There was an array of distinguished debaters. Foremost was brajesh mishra ,one of the sharpest mind around.
    The lady ex ambassador Mrs Arundhati Ghose, said something of the order as “Huwei , the chinese white good manufacturer is flooding the market”
    WHY IS THIS SO.
    Where is Vijay khanna’s swabhimaan now mortgaged to.
    Is it plain DUMPING,is it product of PRISON LABOUR(which chinese are well known to use)
    I mean Indian labour cost is certainly at not par with G7, so why cannot india compete.
    What happened to Jyoti Basu’s BROTHER IN LAW’S enterprise, IFB (license Bosch)
    somebody please enlighten me

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan-
    I did not watch this. However, Indian labour cost is 3 times Chinese. Part of the reason is scale — they can put zillion in one factory and that factory can be in “square miles”..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    ~~~ WHERE IS PRABHAT ? Mystery of the day ~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————

    Hey Prabhat, you should better announce your presence, before we all take out an ad in the Gumshudda columns !

    Last time Gopi raised the question, I flippantly answered, that you could well have settled in the Himalayas….

    If you have, you have done it without having the final beer binge with me.!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay Kumar,

    Prabhat is a fictional character Vinodji had created to tackle all the sanghis, right wing Hindu fundamentalists etc and also to protect the Ravis, Tajenders, Manohars etc.

    Perhaps, now Vinodji feels there is no threat from the first group and to the scond one.

    So he has made the character disappear.

    But, if there is a popular demand for his reappearance, it might be considered.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “But, if there is a popular demand for his reappearance, it might be considered. ”
    Alternately , he might reappear once this blog erupts in a civil war.
    All it takes is a few of your instigations.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh,

    it is quite natural for you, being a Mumbaikar, to talk about civil wars, criminal wars and gang wars. You also know what it takes to cause each one of these. When the need arises, “we” will certainly tap you for expert advice.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Why Shenoy ? Loosing confidence on your own capability of instigating ? As for Gang Wars – the Mumbai ones are quite subtle , actually far too subtle and sophisticated for your taste given the crass ones you engage in.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “…also to protect the Ravis, Tajenders, Manohars etc. ”

    We do not need any protection, we fight our individual battles very successfully without any help – all it takes is courage of conviction, stand one’s ground and not run away ………(you know what follows).

    —————

    “Perhaps, now Vinodji feels there is no threat from the first group and to the second one”.

    Threat? Huh!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    I like the use of “we” proving my contention all along that you have made common cause with the jihadi fundos Fake Ravi and Tajender Gingrich.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    How very true of Ravi to have said about you.

    You cannot read on the line or between the lines.

    In any case, I do not a need a certificate about my credentials from you, they are not worth the paper they are written on. You know very well what one does with such certificates.

    The fact that you keep giving out “certificates” (in addition to praising the RSS and its junior monsters and slamming everybody else) only shows the limit of your intelligence. Yet to see any worthwhile contribution from you on any subject or a topic.

    I hope your vocabulary is just good enough to follow what I am saying, given your intelligence deficit. Good luck.

  • Anonymous

    It seems that the US has backed off from the confrontation with Pakistan which arose becasue of Mullen’s comments.

    The Pakistani PM too is claiming a victory of sorts.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dont be misled by Pak PM claims. Pak claims victory even when it loses. Pak claimed victory even in 1971. In fact, when Pak goes to Indus Water commission with disputes and the commission rules on 9 out of 10 issues on India’s favour and on one cosmetic issue may rule in Pakistan’s favour, Pak and Pak media claim victory. Its a comic nation.
    Meanwhile, it was a wrong interpretation of Mullen statement to think that US will go on war with Pakistan. What Mullen and US administration has done is laid grounds to tighten economic screws and acknowledged that there policy of bestowing economic benefits to Pakistan , in hope of Pakistan action against terrorists, has failed and they are going to re-orient that policy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    This punjabi pundoo must be selling cigarettes and cold drinks from the shops next to a subway in USA like many many indians do. Certainly with his intellect I cannot beleive he is capable of anything more substantial .

    Here is the opinion of the Ex CIA officer, BLOGGERS JUDGE THIS IDIOT FOR YOURSELF
    “US options are limited as we don’t want a larger war in south Asia,” said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer who advised the White House on Afghanistan and Pakistan in 2009 and a fellow at the Brookings Institution think tank.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Has anyone seen the “mongrel, mlechha dog of Nirad Chowdhury ? This is the same dog, seeing which Shakespeare had remarked “Scums of the same stink stick together “. Please call the rabid dog department at Darnel Street , if you smell it. There is a reward too ! lol

  • Rajkumar Singh

    What is the difference between a blog and a column?
    Whom, who, or What to believe and follow?
    Who are the honest or dishonest but retired from life to curse or spew venom?

    Are you a part of the problem or a part of the solution to the problem?
    What is the main job of media?

    Is it social to resolve the issues in the interest of the public and nation or anti-social to enlarge or enrage the issues to divide the people under the garb of a debate of like or dislike minded people for their self-aggrandisement or vested interest?

    Why is there a hue and cry when a MMS goes viral in a bid to corrupt or deform the people? If this is anti-social, then why does a news going viral; which may also corrupt or deform the minds of the people, not anti-social?

    It is very easy to blame or pass a sarcastic remark on others, but it is very difficult to accept blame or digest the return remarks or comments!

    I hope I have tried to reform you under the garb of deforming you!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I deeply appreciate the views expressed by Sunita on this blog. They echo the feelings of many of us.
    I would be discussing these views on another blog , the one hosted by Mr Vinod Sharma ,on this website where many of my fellow bloggers would also appreciate.

    [Reply]

  • http://www.facebook.com/arnab.banerjee.942 Arnab Banerjee

    Please visit the page myrajivgandhi.in and post your valuable comments and take part in the discussion.We are remembering Sri Rajiv Gandhi and his contribution to modern India.

    [Reply]

  • samarth

    What horrible piece… get a life and write something that actually is worth reading… U r sucha waste to the post of fashion editor

    [Reply]

  • AnOpinion

    Communalism is the core of Islam. The wiped out hindu minorities in Pakistan , where Hindus and sikhs were 22% of the population and now 1%, stand mute testimony to it. Same in Bangladesh and Kashmir valley. Where ever Muslims have been in majority in Indian subcontinent, they have killed or wiped out all Hindus. If I am wrong, explain how Hindu and sikhs who were 22% of population in 1947 in Pakistan are 1% now while the reverse is true of Muslims in India. In contrast in Hindu India, muslims have grown from 9% to 15% in same period. Yes Mr Haq, Hindus should be fearful of Islam because its inherently bigoted, violent and genocidal towards non-muslims.

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Essay on River Ganges:
    The Ganges is a river, it flows through India. Its banks are lush green fields of grass. On this grass, the cows graze. Cow is a very useful animal, it gives milk. It has 4 legs, it is generally white in colour and it stays in a herd. IN India, Cow has a special place in our mythology; some people even call it mother “Gau-mata”……
    No field work necessary, no knowledge necessary- only requirement is recycling of the same old cow-dung on Gujarat- whatever be the subject.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,

    Yours is the best way to reply to this article. Superb.

    [Reply]

    DR SHANTANU GHOSH Reply:

    Outstanding, Bengalees wherever they are will stand out. Recently visited morocco. Went to see Ibn Batuta tomb. Hardly a structure , yet saw in Meknes Moulay Idriss tomb a grand structure. SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE PRIORITIES IN ISLAM. anyway how are you doing , and how is your family and are you sleeping well.Best wishes for the new year Shantanu Da
    @

    [Reply]

    vijay ! Reply:

    Fantastic Ashish! Seems the rest from blogging has added might to ur pen!

    [Reply]

    pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ashish;
    Wanted to write a rebuttal to Zia, but reading your post, no need for me to write anything more. I was unable to join, may be I was blacklisted by Disqus. Anyway, I can write so much to Zia but may be for next time

    [Reply]

  • abhi

    Hindutva is strawman created by Jihadis posing as secular. To them even singing Vandemataram is communal.

    [Reply]

  • Laxminarayan Taparia

    WORD HINDU IS MOST MISUNDERSTOOD. THIS WORD HINDU DOES NOT APPEAR IN ANY OF THE SO CALLED RELIGIOUS BOOKS LIKE GITA, RAMAYAN, MAHABHARAT OR ELSEWHERE.
    WORD HINDU REALLY MEANS PEOPLE LIVING ON THIS LAND. IN OTHER WORDS, HINDU MEANS INDIAN.
    IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT THAT, WHEN FOREIGN INVADERS ENTERED THIS LAND, IT WAS THROUGH INDUS. THE WORD HINDU HAS SOMEHOW COME FROM THIS FACT. THIS NAME HINDU HAS BEEN GIVEN TO RESIDENTS OF THIS LAND BY INVADERS AND NOT BY INSIDERS.
    THERE HAVE BEEN SAINTS, PREACHERS, FROM TIME TO TIME AND THERE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWERS OF THEM AND THEY FORMED SECTS AND SUB – SECTS, KNOWN BY DIFFERENT NAMES LIKE — SHAIV, VAISHNAV, DIGAMBAR JAIN, SHWETAMBER JAIN, AARYA SAMAJEE, NIRANKARI SIKH, AKALI SIKH, BAUDDH ( बौद्ध ). BUT NONE OF THEM EVER CONSIDERED THEMSELVES AS NON – HINDU, OR OUTSIDE OR EXCLUDED OUT OF HINDU.
    WHETHER PROCLAIMED OR NOT THEY ACCEPTED THEMSELVES TO BE CALLED HINDU.
    JUST LIKE BHAGWAN BUDDHA, MAHAVEER, GURU NANAK, VIVEKANAND, RAMKRISHNA, SHANKARACHARYA, PROPHET MUHAMMAD ALSO PREACHED WAYS OF LIFE FOR BENEFIT OF THE THEN HUMANITY AND POSTERITY,
    IF I CAN CALL JAIN HINDU, BAUDDHA HINDU, SIKH HINDU, I HAVE NO HESITATION IN CALLING FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD AS ISLAMIC HINDU. ALL RESIDENTS OF THIS LAND ARE HINDUS.
    THE DISTANCE AMONG RESIDENTS IS CREATED AFTER BRITISH INVENTED PARTITION OF LAND ON BASIS OF RELIGIOUS FOLLOWING.
    NOW AFTER 65 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, WE HAVE COME TO REALISE THAT PARTITION ON BASIS OF RELIGIOUS FOLLOWING OR EVEN LANGUAGE SPOKEN, DOES NOT BRING OVERALL PEACE IN NATION.
    CO – EXISTENCE AND NOT SEGREGATION IS THE ANSWER.
    WE IN INDIA SHOULD DERIVE LESSONS FROM WHAT TERRIBLE INHUMAN THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN SYRIA, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, WHEN WE SIT TO TACKLE ISSUES OF MUZAFFARNAGAR, OR EVEN KASHMIR. IT IS FOR RELIGIOUS LEADERS TO PREACH CO- EXISTENCE.

    [Reply]