It’s the season for India versus China



The next Economist, or at least the Asian one, is going to have “Contest of the Century: India versus China” as its cover. I just reviewed a book on India vs China by an Indian businessman. And there are more than a few oped items on this issue in the media.

What gives? Personally I think it’s largely about the fact it’s August. “The month nothing happens,” as an article in the Guardian UK recently noted. So media turn to lists of things. Predictions. Big picture stuff like India vs China. Especially since the future of Obama, future of Pakistan, future of climate change and so on have been done to death.

Otherwise, almost anyone you ask, including any Indian who’s actually been to China, will say there’s no contest. China is roughly four to five times wealthier, has done more on infrastructure – social and physical, has piled up huge mountains of cash, and has a political leadership who have effectively transformed into an executive class.

And yet.

Besides it being the silly season let me list why a minority are suddenly talking about their actually being a fight.

One, is a very real expectation India’s economic growth rate will overtake that of China’s in a decade or so. India has to get a few things right, not too much, to push its growth rate from its present 8.5 per cent to about 10 per cent. Control government red ink. Pass the GST, unifying the country’s disparate revenue systems. Let its manufacturing sector continue to move, as it is, rapidly up the value ladder. And at least get some infrastructure right – power I think is doable in the coming five years. Mathematically that should be enough. China, on the other hand, can be expected to sink to about nine or 10 per cent as its ageing population begins to hoard money for their retirement.

Once India begins growing even a little bit faster, the gap between the two will shrink rapidly. India may never overtake. But it may be just a few steps rather than many leagues behind.Two, is the real economic difference between India and China is that one has a world class government while the other has a world class corporate sector.

By all accounts, the biggest Chinese firms are, inside, poorly managed and often little more than extensions of the government. India has come up with globally competitive industries at a remarkable rate. Its government is hopelessly dysfunctional.

Which will triumph in the long run? Looking at the historical experience of the United States, I would argue it is the corporate sector that matters the most. Not least because it transforms the state along the way. The state tends to suffocate the private sector if given half a chance.

Three, the biggest but not to be exaggerated risk is that the Chinese state has none of the resilience of the Indian democratic system. It is efficient because it cannot afford to be. If Beijing is perceived to have failed, all hell breaks loose on the streets. In New Delhi they wait for the next election.

This has been known but the argument was the Chinese Communist Party was too smart to make that sort of misstep. But I’m now seeing a lot of China watchers wondering if that is true. The party has made missteps and big ones. It is struggling with a needed economic transition because it can’t figure out how to sell the policy. It has also been unable to resist throwing its weight around the region, stirring up some anti-China geopolitical balancing. So we are seeing the rise of a school of China bears. They see speculative bubbles, poor demographics, a bloated heavy industry sector, bad geopolitical ploys and social unrest coupled with mediocre leaders. It is fair to say the Indian bulls are still pretty rare but the China negatives are at least raising questions.

As one China watcher told me, “The Chinese leadership know their growth rate is going to fall. And they worry about India beating them one day. But they calculate New Delhi will make a hash of it and miss the chance.”
Let me put it another way. China has some big flaws in the structure of its economy and polity. But it combines a decisive and far-seeing leadership with oodles of money to cover up and repair these flaws. If you doubt the leaders and the stash shrinks, then all these mistakes become serious. Which is why China is suddenly finding itself being thrown in the same league as India, at least speculatively. But the speculation has a core of empiricism in it.I went back and read a book or two about China during the early phase of its reforms. It was like reading about India. And this was all true until about 2002 or so. Not so far behind.

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  • Siddharth Dasgupta

    The question has to be what would the relative paces be for China and India in the next 20-30 years. While the Indian entrepreneurial sector will march through the governmental failures, big industry in collusion with dismal government can still cause much social unrest to make this viable only in hot spots like Gujarat and Bangalore and Pune (or pick your place of choice).

    Other issue where India is severely neanderthal in its thinking is tertiary education. Having seen China’s determined push at the national strategic level, and India’s bungling of it at every level, it is hard to believe that India will continue to produce the quality workforce that it will need in the next decades. Tertiary education will need a much more far sighted and steady hand at the wheel of regulation than say the IT sector, which has grown organically despite the government obstacles in the early years.

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  • china watcher

    @ “The Chinese leadership know their growth rate is going to fall. And they worry about India beating them one day. But they calculate New Delhi will make a hash of it and miss the chance.”
    Maybe this Indian analyst has bought into mantra that we will somehow “catch up” even though the chances of that happening in the medium term are close to nil.

    I seriously doubt they give two hoots about what happens to New Delhi now or the future. The Chinese devote their attention to American and Japan. India is left for the Pakistanis.

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    watch Guard Reply:

    Talk of the neighbours. Yes, India is for Pakistan as much as it is for China. We sort all of them. As for This analysis of yours, keeping on sticking out your tongue and pant, running after America. And Our future, we take cues from a little revisting of History and Current Economatrix. Disburden yourself, let Time heap onto you the worries.

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    Pramit Reply:

    The Chinese establishment has tended to hold India in general contempt. I would argue that until about five years ago, there was little concern about India.
    Even now, it is not as if Beijing is having sleepless nights about New Delhi. But it is paying more attention because of a combination of economic and strategic reasons.
    The concern in Beijing that India was verging on overtaking China in raw growth figures — from a lower base obviously — and this symbolic accomplishment was worrying them was based on a conversation with a well-known US-based China specialist who had met Chinese leaders who had told him exactly that.

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  • http://resultsachievers.com Abhijit Bhattacharjee

    This is a classic example of the media creating a ‘reality’ where none exists. Anyone who has been to China and India will know China’s growth compares with what the West had gone through between 1960s and 1990s – growing not just in economic terms, but also in how it influenced the mindset of its people, commitment to common national and humane values. None of the latter have undergone any change in India over the past several decades. Ask anyone who has been to the so-called most backward countries of the world where else they could find a man or a woman defecating out in the open near the boulevards of the great cities like Delhi, or where else would you find a bunch of most corrupt mafias supported by the Government shamelessly swindling billions from State coffers in the name of commonwealth games and not even bothering to deliver facilities which are safe enough for its users. Or where else would you find a driver – drunk or undrunk – who considers it his right to plough into scores of pedestrians or the poor sleeping on the pavements, and the courts letting him go scott-free because the judge’s wife is having an affair or with killer? Or where else would you come across a mass murderer who rules a part of the country despite having sponsored genocide against its own people who belonged to a different religion, as one Chief Minister in Gujarat has done, or where else would you find murderers, rapists and thieves in its Parliament?
    Having travelled to over a hundred countries in the past three decades, I can only find there are two other countries on this planet which are pretty close to what India has shown it is capable of, and these are Pakistan and Somalia. Although as an Indian, I feel embarassed to say that never in my last three visits to Somalia have I ever seen a man peeing on the road or a woman ‘doing’ it by the roadside.
    I am totally convinced the myth about India competing with China is a creation of the Western media, which out Indian elites love to hear. But underlying it its the West’s deep hatred of the Chinese. In truth, India and China are no competition. India is yet to compete against the likes of Somalia, Pakistan and Sierra Leone. Sounds harsh, but ask anyone who has seen the world will tell you so.

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    forex robot Reply:

    Keep posting stuff like this i really like it

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    Vikram Reply:

    Sad but very true. Maybe the western countries just want to create some mischief between China and India to be a thorn for China and nothing else. Similar to how china is using Pakistan against India. We are nowhere in comparison to China.

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    Arun Reply:

    Oh man, another left leaning “intellectual” busy sucking upto the mass murdering despots who run the PRC. The crimes against their own people the communists have done, dwarf anything any indian leader has done, yet the left worships the communists and does nothing to let their own country grow. Talk of misplaced loyalties.
    Unlike the PRC, everything in India is open, whether it be defectation by the roadside or whether it be communal disturbances or economic underperformance. India is not obsessed with image management as your beloved PRC is. If you moved beyond the state mentored trips, you would have seen enough of PRC poverty, defecation or even incidents like the bird flu virus which originated from the PRC, not “filthy India”. At the end of the day, an open India will grow and slowly change. It does not need mass murdering despots like the PRC leadership to force change on its people at the cost of their lives

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    Raj Reply:

    You are right on. Actually if you go to the Chinese countryside, open defecation is still common (China actually has a low prevalence of improved sanitation). India could have done a lot better in literacy and life expectancy, but even in those areas it’s way ahead of Pakistan and Africa. Most of Africa has AIDS ravaging the people with average life expectancies around 45 (Nigeria/South Africa) compared to 69 in India.
    Also note that the communist run states in India have copied none of the infrastructure building or economic growth policies of China. They are basically paid stooges of the PRC keeping their own people poor (example West Bengal). Even Kerala basically exports it’s labor to the Capitalist Gulf states to keep it’s economy going.
    Interestingly Gujarat which has grown like China (in GDP growth and infrastructure) is also criticized by these lefties which shows whose paying them. Since the Islamic extremists came in uninvited and have killed millions of Hindus an continue to wage Jihad against Hindus (and just about everyone else including China), it’s reasonable to expect many Hindus will retaliate. The burden is on the Islamic Jihadi’s to declare that Hinduism is also a valid religion that has a right to exist. Then we can talk about peace.

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    Raj Reply:

    “where else would you find murderers, rapists and thieves in its Parliament?”
    China. The Han Chinese know how to deal with Islamic extremists, they flooded Xinjiang and took care of the Islamic radicals there when they were rioting. This is unlike India, which doesn’t even have the common sense to flood Kashmir with Indians (including Kashmiri Hindus who were forced out) from the rest of the country until the Kashmiri Muslims become less than 20% of the population. You make a good point, we can learn a lot from the mighty Han.

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  • Indian

    India need to invest lots of money into infrastructure, our leaders need to get rid of slave mentalty, speak strong in world affairs, not to just mumble in mouth. Bihar, Up, Rajsthan, etc… all the poor states need to get grip over poverty, western countries still call us half nacket people, slowly we getting there, i never thought, i will see the rocket going to the moon in my life time, this was outstanding event in my life, beside, launching settelits. LONG LIVE INDIA. by the way don’t trust Chinese and ****, both are treacherous countries, back staber. One day we will leave them behind, China built the castle on the sand, it will colapse one day, people want freedom.

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    Asok Reply:

    I agree with you. India is already a superpower. India is the largest democracy in the world. We enjoy many human rights and freedoms, which are the envy of the world. India is software superpower. Over 50% of the engineers in Microsoft, NASA, IBM, Apple, and other Western firms are Indians. India is space superpower. We have sent a rocket to the moon and discovered water there. We will soon send a man to the moon by 2020. India’s power is built on the firm foundation of democracy, while china’s strength is built on the sand of communism. We have already surpassed china in governance, freedom, and human rights. Our courts are the best in the world. Our scientists are second to none. Over 80% of Nobel laureates are of either Indian origins, or lived in India, or visited to India or known someone who have been to India. Indian are outstanding politicians. Over 25% of US senators, congressmen, and governors, including the youngest governors are of Indian origin. Long live India!!!

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    Hari Reply:

    Where do you get these incorrect, jingoistic nationalist and totally untrue statistics from?

    Some of the points you mentioned are just plain laughable. To quote you:

    1) “Our courts are the best in the world”

    2) “Indians are outstanding politicians”

    3) “Over 25% of US senators, congressmen, and governors, including the youngest governors are of Indian origin”

    What the hell? I bet you are super-human and super-natural. In fact, I bet you can also fly.

    You might not know your hidden powers, but I am sure you have them. Jump out of your balcony and fly. Jump and fly, now!

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    S Swaminathan Reply:

    The difference between China & India is like the difference between the erstwhile Soviet Union & United States. In the 1920’s & 1930’s . Soviet Union was able to grow at a fast pace during that period. They were in competition economically and militarily during the the 1950’s, 60s and 70’s. However since they were not a democracy they failed as a nation and split. The same could be true of China.

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  • Azhar Hussain

    No comparision

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    vijay kumar Reply:

    Thum yahan bhi aa gaya… :)

    how bout comparing Pakistan to Smoalia and Afghanistan and thn saying no comarison … :)

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    Vikram Reply:

    arre yaar it him be

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    vijay Kumar Reply:

    We should analyse why China succeeded and why India may fail !!

    And the answer lies in China itself !

    After Mao’s demise, China was a broken nation with its population subjected to Cultural revolution and brainwashing. Deng looked around the world and came up with these simple formulations

    a) From india, he copied Sanjay Gandhi’s vision of family planning

    b) From Singapore he got its growth model. That is high foreign investment, strict labour laws and export led growth.

    So that was the simple formula of China’s great success.

    In India, we have an intellectual class which applauds and applauds the growth of China, but is unwilling to recognize that it is not the Maoist CHina which is shining today, but Deng’s CHina.

    In fact we have a so called educated class which still believes in the power of Mao’s thoughts. And now for that reason we have a strong maoist movement on all over. And in case Maoism gets stronger, let us be prepared for our democracy dying and a cultural revolution.

    I think it would be great if Pramit, you were to higlight this aspect to our so called intellectuals who still have sympathy for Maoists ideals and believe that these ideals have led to China’s growth.

    Raju Kurien Reply:

    Agree with Vijay.

    And it is ironic that all the criticisms in this blog came from “intellectual” Bengalis (no offence – just to point a point) like Das Gupta, Bhattacharjee (2) .. Why is West Bengal one of the worst states in terms of employment, industry, healthcare, education after 50 years of comminist rule? So, I hope these Benaglis who criticize Indian policies ad nauseum focus on West Bengal and make it better.

    Why WB cannot have a Chinese model communism while they applaud that model?

    And, will these intellectuals tolerate “a Sanjay Gandhi/Indira Gandhi emergency” rule? Democracy is messy. Either we make that better; or be like Pakistan with army in charge. It is not our politicians who are ******** us; it is the bureaucrats, IAS babus, who are not under anybody (another British invention!)

    Dev Reply:

    “China is suddenly finding itself being thrown in the same league as India, at least speculatively.”

    Only in India is China seriously speculated to be in the same league as India. Nowhere else in the world do people consider India and China remotely comparable beyond population size. People here in the U.S. always talk about China, but they rarely mention India. Most attention India has ever received was in 2008, and it was largely about Slumdog Millionaire. We should stop deluding ourselves, thinking we are somehow in the same league with China. We are only fooling ourselves.

    Ravi Reply:

    It is really funny to see all these comments from the so called INDIANS who are so much obsessed with their inferiority complex (same as our respected leaders). Well…I would say that this is not their fault either… this complex is in the air..created by media. Has any body seen a Cinese Documentry? The some I have seen only show good and achievements of China. Whereas, indian documentries show minuses only (Poor people, dirt, garbage, corrupt politicians,etc, etc). It is really sad to see these comments….My brothers, there is more to India than all this and things are improving. I agree that some major issues need to be resolved and Indian leaders nee to be proactive than reactive but I am happy to see this article saying positive about India. I laughed at the comment to compare India with Somalia and likes…the writer need to visit Somalia to live for a week and then should revisit his comment. Indians are modest, but this does not mean to be thought off as a weakness. HAIL India.

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    Arun Reply:

    Well said

    Rajesh Reply:

    AT LAST AN ARTICLE THAT SAYS SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT INDIA. After watching TV news during the last month or so (CWG scam, Politicians pay issue, Parliament disruptions etc.) it appeared that we had lost our way. Please all newspapers/TV channels say something positive at times.

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  • http://www.zojila.com Ron Jose

    India has other problems too..like the growing disparity between the haves and have-nots which if not addressed lead to problems like the Maoist insurgency.

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    Akhil Lakhotia Reply:

    China has the same disparity between haves and have-nots.

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    shekon Reply:

    India is NO MATCH for China – this is coming from an Indian entrepreneur who travels between these 2 great nations few times every year.

    India has huge security and internal stability issues and massive income/education disparity.

    Lack of – discipline, decision making capacity, strong central government and powerful military will make India a second grade toothless tiger similar to the East India Company situation 270 years back.

    History repeats itself and India will be a sitting duck to China’s expansion and ambitions.

    The Indian voters and Indian democracy actually work AGAINST India’s development – and will be root cause of unrest – Maoists, Kashmir and few others.

    In another 30-50 years, severe water shortage in urban India will give rise to riots, ethic clashes and massive civil unrest.

    The solution in India is is youth – they need to rise and install a strong dictatorial regime for at least 10 years and crush every obstruction with brutal force. Millions will die, but billions will benefit.

    Once the nation passes this phase, socio-economic standards improve, voters get educated – then reinstall parliamentary democracy like western nations etc

    Right now India is a joke – controlled by 50 or so wealthy families and few political clans.

    China is a powerhouse and very soon their economy and military will surpass US.

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    O.P. Sabherwal Reply:

    Two weak spots of the Indian edifice are the most serious. One, Indian democracy falls short of engaging the people as a whole, a weakness arising from resting partly on feudal heritage. Two, its political and economic systems are not integrated. Remove these two failings, and India becomes a giant — matching China, even overtaking. —

    mohan Reply:

    ..and where you want to be with shekon..with the millions who will die or billions who will benefit.
    hail hitler..or is it hail modi?

    Arun Reply:

    Hail MMS and UPA who do nothing

    Raj Reply:

    The Corrupt Congress party has basically ruled India like the Chinese communist party however their governance has been much worse. The Congress party has been taken over by Christian fundamentalists paid for and supported by foreign organizations like the Catholic Church. Their motivation is both religious and greed for power. Italian mafia style tactics are also increasingly being used now with India now under the control of militant Christian Europeans again (Sonia Gandhi).

    Dev Reply:

    But the poor in China have enough to eat, and their children can at least finish high-school. Our poor die of hunger.

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    Akash Reply:

    Says who? They starve and the Chinese Govt takes their land and even makes them have abortions

    Raj Reply:

    China has much higher income disparity than India based on the GINI index (35 versus 46).
    However I think India’s food distribution system needs to be improved. China had comparable malnutrition rates until the 1990’s and they have brought it down to below 10% through coordinated action. That’s something that could be copied.

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  • J. Bhattacharjee

    Pramit rightly states that those who have been to China will never agree to such comparison. Most importantly, whatever be the contention of the arm chair analysts and their blind love for India, the fact remains that our society is self destructive with nobody in control; individuals are out to make money at the cost of the society and whosoever gets the opportunity, does the same; the society is divided into thousands of fragments by language, religion, caste and so on with nobody in command. Allowing our imagination a free rein, let us think what India could be if the Chinese authority structure had been in India: you do not have to think hard to realise that remarkable achievements would have been within the grasp of the nation as a whole, across different sections and divisions, with the society moving unstoppably towards its goals, with the creativity of the people in full play, a formidable force that would be the envy of the world. This is not to say there is no corruption in China, but that corruption does not become self destructive as it does in India. Democracy in such a diverse society as India is difficult since the lowest common denominator on which there is agreement is only making money through corruption: this truth is borne out by the adjustments and understandings reached by political parties. Though temporarily convenient, this will take its toll and somewhere, though none talk about it, will blow up. It is something like spurious drugs taking a toll in the family of one who makes them.

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  • shekon

    Part II of India vs China – what pundits need to know.

    India needs to counter balance China’s growing military might in Asia and soon World over.

    What can India with say a $25-$35 billion a year Military budget do to balance the yellow horde ?

    1) Start massive military ties ups with Taiwan & Vietnam

    Vietnam is our biggest friend in this region and their hatred and fear of Chinese needs to be used for our advantage. As a regular visitor to this new emerging Asian tiger, I am DUMBFOLDED at the Indian embassy’s lack of interest in this nation/geo- political arena.

    Just like China;s nuclear assistance to Pakistan, India needs a clandestine nuclear arms partnership with Vietnam and make Vietnam a nuclear power with 50-60 warheads in next 10-15 years. India also needs to build/rent a Naval base in Vietnam or nearby areas to counter influence China’s Pakistani naval arsenals. If giving nuclear weapons is too harsh, then India should arm Vietnam with nuclear submarines like what Russia did to Cuba.

    India lost its influence in Indo-China since last 300 years – we as Indians should not forget the great Kalingas, Cholas built temples as far east as Laos/Cambodia and now is the time to AIM EAST and restart the maritime & military trade we used to have 3,000 years ago.

    Indian government is a STUPID COW urinating on its own face. Time is running out …

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    mohan Reply:

    ..now i got it ..it is hail modi!

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    Arun Reply:

    Seems to scare you a lot comrade mohan

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    Raj Reply:

    Atleast Modi is building infrastructure and growing the state GDP at rates equal to or greater than China unlike the do nothing Congress party which ruled India for nearly 50 years and has done nothing for India other than enrich the ones in the mafia.

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  • nandini

    Those who know only to earn money at any cost even at the cost of their mother they can write like this. But those who know relation between the two countries for a long time won’t say like this. This is only about writers selfish and little knowledge.

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  • http://inchincloser.com/ Inchin Closer

    A great article!!! Thanks. It captures what both sides of the border think abt themselves and each other perfectly. What I figure will happen eventually, is that China and India will find increasing ways to cooperate and work together, just as they have done in the past.

    With a raising trade imbalance with China, and reduced exports to the west, India realises that its difficult to grow without the support of China. The middle kingdom too knows that India might not seem with it now, but the drive within is so strong that the economy will continue to soar and demographics will remain in India’s favour.

    As for politics and the the state of living, its a toss up, there are equal arguements in favour of and against either country. As such I call it a draw – neither of us can claim to provide clean drinking water to our populace or live in a truly free country. While China’s city’s are outstanding in comparision to India’s megapolises, the South Asian nation desperately lacks China’s drive to change things for the better.

    Ultimately, it won’t remain a debate of China Vs India (Sure, currently from a purely commercial / investment perspective it is important) but in the long term the debate will be about how best China and India can work together. What is the best cooperation model the two countries can adopt and how can they make the most of it.

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    Raj Reply:

    This is like the comparisons made between France and Germany or Italy and Germany showing how one is superior to the other. Even today you can tell the infrastructure difference between Germany and Italy or UK. Ultimately, Asia will probably become like Western Europe, differences in the countries but ultimately all about the same level of per capita GDP.

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  • WhyRequired

    All said and done, would the Indians want to move to China?

    Extreme censorship, strong clamp on civil liberties. Does not seem very good for the aam aadmi.

    Btw, how does china now compare with USSR at its peak?

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    Dev Reply:

    Which Indians? The Middle-Class, West-Worshipping Indians will not. What about the 800 million Indians in the rural areas? Would they move to China?

    Of course they would! In China, they will get THREE meals a day. In China, their children will finish high school. In China, their children will get free vaccinations. The list goes on.

    So please stop asking stupid questions. Of course most of us would rather move to China! Just look at Singapore, which is not a democracy, but it has a large illegal Indian immigration problem.

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  • Jing

    Comparisons such as the one written in this blog post and elsewhere are flawed because they are logically incoherent. They are essentially building up a series of suppositions to support an already pre-conceived notion, that India will catch up or overtake China.

    The fundamental error that this author and many others make is to assume that growth in China is singularly state driven and India is attributed with near mythical capitalist characteristics. This is fundamentally false and is a result of hyper-reductionist tendencies that boil China’s and India’s economies into mere caricatures.

    There is one undeniable truth, the state is a predatory organization and exists to extract economic surplus from it’s host societies. China’s government is no more responsible for it’s rapid economic growth than I am for the length of the tides. What states can do to facilitate capital accumulation is to ensure security, promote property rights, and otherwise disincentivize rent seeking. Of course that is the optimal position for a government to take, one that does not exist anywhere in practice. What does this have to do with India? The reason why India has fallen so far behind China (well one of the many that is) is because India’s state is even more predatory than the China’s. Rent seeking behavior by entrenched bureaucratic elites in India as well as the “rotating banditry” based corruption of illiberal democratic governments are arguably worse in India. The Communist Party in China is responsible for many misdeeds such as the gross misallocation of capital, suppression of civil society, and other past blood letting. Yet despite its myriad of sins, it’s present policies are superior to democratic India’s.

    One oft-repeated axiom that the India-China comparison drawers like to make is that the demise of one-party Leninist rule in China will somehow derail Chinese economic growth. Nothing could be further than the truth. The end of the Communist Party’s pernicious influence on China’s economy will be a great boon to future growth. In contrast to India, where the majority of voters seem content decades of Congress rule, dynastic politics, and chalta hai. Let us count the ways in which the Manmohan Singh government has reduced the influence of the Indian state on it’s civil society… (sarcasm by the way). The greatest gift the Chinese state can give to the Chinese people is for it to be overthown by a more liberal one. Unfortunately for India, the assorted grandees seem to believe that a perpetual rotting political machine that exists to skim more economic rent (bribes) is the apex of governance. Rents (bribes) made possible by the same government which is incentivized to add more government interference in business in order to extract those rents.

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    Haresh Samtani Reply:

    Jing Shinshang,I have to admit that your letter was the one which made the most sense in many ways.
    Yes,the “Chalta Hai” attitude and the predatory landlords plus the inefficient Governments
    are the cause of India being how it is.However,and this is a BIG ‘however’-I put it to you that EVEN the Present Policies of the Chinese Government-IF we can call it a Government since it was never elected or even FREELY selected by the People there-are not much better.
    Bureaucratic Elites?Not only do we find those in China(STILL)but ,you also have to contend with the PRINCES-the SONS of the Bureaucratic AND the Military Elite who control almost ALL the Major Companies and who care not a whit about the Proletariat.And are you suggesting that THEY do not feed upon the people?
    The Benefits of Democracy are manifold and Long Term.Like a Marathon.Freedom.
    Freedom of Expression.Of Ideas(not just Improving a product).Of Happiness.And of Freedom from fear of your OWN government.

    Deforestatio

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    Pramit Reply:

    I couldn’t agree more about the predatory nature of the state — anywhere.
    I think almost all the economic literature I have seen on both India and China is pretty clear that the Chinese state owns and controls a lot more of its economy than the Indian one does.
    This is a key reason why the Chinese economy is driven by investment, which tends to be state directed, while the Indian economy is driven by consumption, which is largely household and corporate driven.
    A number of economists, including Chinese ones, have argued that the Communist Party’s behind the scenes ownership or control of much of the Chinese private sector makes the state’s role in China greater than pretty much any major economy in the world. I can’t judge this independently, but it makes sense when you look at the institutional structure of capital flows in China.
    Finally, China is roughly an economy four times larger than India’s. However, Chinese per capita disposable income is less than double that of India’s. In my view, this indicates the Chinese state is diverting a huge portion of the nation’s capital for its own use and away from its own people. One manifestation of this is of course the country’s remarkable infrastructure.
    As long as the average Chinese is happy with the way this money is spent, the state can get away with this. They day they are not, then Beijing’s mandate of heaven becomes endangered.

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  • Vijay Kumar

    Thx Raju,

    I think the trick lies in reinforcing our core values of democracy and secularism AND REPLACING Socialism as envisaged in the Constitution with and enlightened liberal market economics, backed by a welfare state.

    We also have to recognise that when Mao was supreme, India and China became enemies. And today because both are becoming market economies, the chance of friendship is greater than ever before.

    It would require a genius of a Law minister to make things really happen in India. Sounds funny? A law minister?

    Well believe me, the absence of convictions is the reason we have such criminal politicians, bad policemen and corruption all around. In case we were to have clear cut laws and try to get back a jury system so that civil and family cases follow the road of arbiteration rather than the current scenario where only lawyers are the winners, we would be a happier and more prosperous society.

    Coming back to China, I have travelled very very extensively out there and the physical infrastructure is impressive and great . Again they have just been able to empty out there old towns and villages, destroy their history, especially Maoist history and re-build from zero. THe question is, is that desirable? Maybe at times it is. But is it possible in India?

    I think we have to find a middle road where we do destroy the old, but not always. Where we compensate our farmers in more than a fair manner, whenver we acquire their land.

    However today’s China hankers for what India has in overabundance– democracy and religion !!

    Many a times people asked me are you a HIndu? And what is hinduism about. THey are curious about Buddhism and have surely dumped their communism for the Buddha. Many have become Christians.

    Yes they want Religion !
    And they want democracy !!

    This is a huge chapter by itself. Maybe I will be tempted to write it in my next posting. But yes, I keep wondering whther it would remain the same “disciplined ” country which China fans love :)

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  • Dev

    “By all accounts, the biggest Chinese firms are, inside, poorly managed and often little more than extensions of the government. India has come up with globally competitive industries at a remarkable rate. Its government is hopelessly dysfunctional. ”
    This again is a myth of our own making. The Chinese companies are very competitive, especially the large ones. They are the world’s workshop. The Chinese banks dominate the top leagues. I don’t know how we got the impression that Chinese companies are badly managed. The facts simply speak otherwise. Also astonishing is our belief that Indian industry is world-class, which is very obviously untrue. While the Chinese have gone from strength to strength with their manufactured goods, technology exports, high-tech electronics, machine tools, chemicals, high-speed trains, etc., we Indians believe we are world-class because of our IT industry. The sad truth is that our IT and BPO industries are nothing but cyber coolies and servants, catering to Western MNCs. We have no innovation. Where is our Google, Microsoft, Sun, Apple, Oracle, etc.? We have none! So please let us focus on education, nutrition, literacy and all the other basic areas before thinking about comparing with China. We are far, far behind!

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  • vijay kumar

    Dev,

    Don’t speak from a seventies and eighties type of position of inferiority complex, when everything imported was good… and things Indian were bad…

    We may not have Google, Microsoft, Sun, Apple, Oracle, etc but see the shareholding pattern of these companies and Indians are tops in that ! :)

    A high percentage of the IT employees of these companies are Indian.

    And all these companies have major software development centres and offices in India…

    You have to realise that India is moving, albiet at its elephant pace; our entreprenuers do well our politicos and bueaucrats are the problem :)

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  • http://nil manohar david

    The contest of India Vs china is what the western world want but doesn,t exist at the field level.Except for the British created border dispute which led to a pathetic war (for India) both mind their business with their own strength and weaknesses. India naturally will grow slow due to democracy and china will grow fast due to single party rule!China is strong on manufacturing base while India is strong in its natural English speaking ability which transform the service sector.What is needed between these two great countries is the wisdom of moving together as the world is too large to accommodate both these superpowers to the overall development of the world.Sickness ,poverty , illiteracy and many evils need to be fought in both these countries and we have a long way to go to become a real developed country

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  • http://www.oilintelligence.com svetlana toma

    China’s secret weapon in Africa
    CCEC signs 500 million $ railway line in Ghana, TCC signs 1 billion contract for upgrading Tema refinery, China Railways signs contract to upgrade Armenian railways, CSOC signs contract to upgrade naval flotilla of Ecuador….and so it goes, the relentless march of Chinese contractors, fuelled by cheap finance.
    What these headlines hide is an astonishing fact, that China’s secret weapon in many parts of Africa, Latin America and NIS, is in fact a reclusive Maltese Indian millionaire.
    Our investigative reporters have put together a picture of a man who flits across continents, whispering quietly in the ears of decision makers, selling them billion dollar dams, power stations and railway lines
    From Nigeria to Senegal, and Ecuador to Chile, one single man has helped Chinese contractors win contracts totalling almost fifteen billion US$. What is ironical is that in the battlefield between Indian and Chinese interests, the Chinese’s’ most effective weapon is an Indian businessman based in Malta.
    The Maltese businessman, Shiv Shankaran Nair, is the Chairman of British Borneo Holdings Ltd, a Maltese mini conglomerate with interests in oil and gas, security, public procurement and public advocacy. From his lair in the ancient fortress city of Valetta, built by the famous Crusader knights, Mr.Nair sallies forth on behalf of his Chinese paymasters, to sell developing countries, the modern tools of development. If it is a dam, in the middle of the Congo, or a power station in the Amazon or a railway line in the Karakum desert, Mr.Nair is the man you want, and of course if your country has some oil or iron ore or any other mineral, Mr.Nair has Chinese friends who will be more than happy to dig it up and cart it away to China
    Nair’s company British Borneo Oil and Gas, has cooperation agreements with CNOOC , one the major Chinese oil companies (oil Intelligence July issue) as well as with Sinopec. Nair is also a special advisor to the President of Kalmykia, Kirsan Illyumzhinov, who is very well connected to the kleptocratic leaders of the Central Asian Republics. Nair and Illyumzhinov are reputed to work closely in the region.
    Mr.Nair is a good example of how modern International trade and public advocacy have blurred the distinction between nationality and political relations

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  • AMIT

    sir ,i dont think our india is developed enough to be compared to china! as well we should improve our relationships with pakistan and support aman ki aasha . Thats the best way for the both countries to increase thier efficeincy in work ,trade! As well china is considered, we know that Pakistan has very good relationship with China and thats the reason they are developing best missles and fighter planes like JF-17THUNDER . We should join hands with Pakistan ,so then both the countries will be able to produce more goods and better weapons and wii be able to bring efficiency in thier work! Fighting will not bring us any results! We lost the war of 1965 from Pakistan and we won in 1971 and then we again lost a war in 1999, i mean kargil .What happened? there were lots of expenses in war and both the countries loose thier soldiers! before improving relationships between both countries ,we have to solve the kashmir issue and should handover kashmir to them as we know very well it belonged to PAkistan! Then see sir our relationship will improve very fast with pakistan. FIGHTIng will not bring us anything but only weakend us!! amit from mumbai…jai hind…

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  • http://www.oilintelligence.com s.harris

    China dispatches its secret weapon to Latin America

    On the 31st of March, a little reported meeting took place in Bogota Colombia, between The President of Colombia Juan Manuel Santos and a Maltese businessman Shiv Shankaran Nair, President of British Borneo Holdings Ltd.

    Mr. Nair , who reportedly spent almost two hours with the President and his team, was accompanied by his close friend and partner from Spain, Pedro Gomez de la serna Villacieros, a former Director in the Ministry of interior of Spain, under the People’s Party.

    However our sources indicate that the reason for this hurriedly convened meeting was two letters carried by .Mr.Nair. Addressed to the President of Colombia from the Presidents of two of China’s largest companies, China Railways and China Harbour.

    In the letters, Nair, was mandated to discuss with the Colombian President, the Mega Project to connect the Atlantic Coast of Colombia with the Pacific coast.

    This project has been under discussion between the Governments of China and Colombia for some time, but without much progress, and it is interesting that the Chinese dispatched Mr.Nair to Colombia. Dubbed by the Diplomat magazine as “China’s secret weapon in Africa”, Mr.Nair has an impressive track record in closing Chinese financed projects in Africa. It will remain to be seen whether he can replicate this in South America. However, it can atleast be said that he has had a good start

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