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Is there such a thing as a “global” Indian man?
This has been worrying me for some time.
I want to know whether a truly global Indian man exists.
By that I mean a man who eats western food as much as he eats Indian food; in fact he would be happy to have a wife who cooks dishes likes Spaghetti Bolognaise or Thai green curry, but who does not necessarily make chapatis, Dal, Paneer Makhani, or any Indian dishes.
Plus he knows that if wants me to cook and to possess the so-called feminine traits such as cooking, sewing and cleaning, then he knows he should possess masculine traits such as DIY skills, putting up shelves, repairing cars, replacing tyres, building and painting.
If he doesn’t possess them, then he know she has no right to make such demands of me. If he does, then it’s fine and he eats pasta with me at night.
Even if I can cook, he would not expect me to cook and clean all the time, and would be happy to help in the house, with housework. He would not be incompetent at housework.
Some nights I would cook, some nights he would.
This man would not force me or expect me to live with, above or next to his parents. In fact, he would be happy to live in a detached house with me in another city, or even another country to his parents.
Ideally this man would be prepared to move to my country, if I wished.
It would not be that I have to settle in India.
(Why is it that women have to ‘follow’ Indian men and not vice versa and all the western girls I know who have married Indian men, have settled in India?)
If I did settle in India (out of choice), we would not have to live next or near his parents.
We would visit his parents regularly though, as one should, but no more or less regularly than we visited my parents. Likewise if he moved to the UK, he would visit his parents regularly. But he would not arrange for his parents to emigrate to the UK and live with us there.
This Indian man would prioritise me as highly in his life as his mother. I would hold equal standing to her.
This man would not mind if I drank alcohol. He would ideally drink too. He would also be happy to sit with me in Mocha or Sheesha as I create nose rings of smoke on a hookah pipe flavoured with strawberry. He would not be shocked or disgusted by me smoking hookah and would not describe it as ‘unsexy’.
He would be happy for me to have male friends, including ex boyfriends in my life, and he would have female friends, including ex girlfriends, in his.
For indeed both of us would have had previous relationships and be more emotionally mature, as a result.
This man would not lead a separate social life to me. By that I mean he would not attend parties without me, pretending to be single at them. Of course, we would occasionally socialise separately but would strive to socialise as a couple. We would prefer attending parties as a couple. He would not be secretly fantasising about dating other women. If he went to a party alone he would not chat women up and he would wish I was with him.
He would not flirt with other women in front of me either.
The wedding would be a white wedding in a church in the UK; and also a Hindu wedding, assuming he was Hindu, in India. The white wedding would happen in Somerset, where my parents live and, not in India. His family would fly to attend it.
It doesn’t matter whether his parents can speak English or not but ideally they would be able to, just to facilitate communication. Ideally his mother would be emancipated and modern.
He would show as much interest in my family as he expected me to show in his. I could happily wear strappy tops in his parent’s house.
He would be willing to introduce me to his parents at an early stage, even when we were only casually dating, and the relationship was not even serious.
The reason for this would be so that I could meet his parents and get to know them, months or years before the word engagement even touched our lips.
If the relationship ended months or weeks later, it would not matter.
(Why does an Indian man have to hide his girlfriend from his family for months, if not years? Or is that only when the girl is white…?)
(I don’t want to be introduced to a man’s parents when we are about to get or are engaged. How do I know if I want to get engaged to a man if I have not met his parents? I would rather meet the family early on in the dating game. That way we can see if we gel or not. A columnist in Mumbai recently wrote that the minute you introduce a boyfriend or girlfriend to friends or family, that makes it ‘official’. And that is the ‘same as announcing an engagement.’ I completely disagree. There are about 100 levels between meeting the parents and announcing an engagement, in my view.)
This man would introduce me to his friends at an early stage of the relationship, when we were casually dating, not at a late stage when we were announcing our engagement.
He would not just meet on one-to-one dates in coffee shops, but we would also go out in groups of friends. If the relationship ended weeks later, it would not matter. He would not be scared of being ‘labelled’ in a relationship with me because he would want to be in one. He would not want to go out on his own so he could flirt with or pull other women. I would be the only woman in his life.
(Why do some Indian men block their girlfriend meeting his friends, citing all kinds of strange cultural reasons…What is really going on? )
I would not be forced to attend lunches with girls and ‘kitty parties’ to make up for a void in my life, created by the fact he was always out. (Our relationship would be based on fidelity and neither of us would be tempted to have an affair owing to emptiness and loneliness.)
He would accept my cats in his life and grow to love them as much as I do. He would not be scared of or hold an irrational hatred of cats. He would not mind getting covered in cat fur after sitting on my sofa.
This man’s mother would not phone me up on the occasion of a Karwa Chauth ( a fasting festival observed by married women in India to worship their husband) and ask me if I have worshipped the moon.
He would not expect me to follow Hindu rituals. I would speak to his mother occasionally and we would go shopping sometimes, but she would not boss me around, control me or overly worship her son. She would not phone me or her son every day.
He would allow me to continue following my religion and me encourage him in his.
He would not be dating me while simultaneously meeting Indian girls that his parents want him to marry. He would inform his parents he was dating me from Day One.
If we had children, neither his parents nor mine, would exert control over their upbringing. He and I would bring them up as global citizens.
This man has not necessarily lived in the US for 20 years or done a year long MBA in London, because that does not necessarily make him global, nor is that any indication of a global mindset. Nevertheless ideally he would have travelled a bit. Does this man exist?
(26 votes, average: 2.88 out of 5)
Loading ...Posted by Naomi Canton on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Filed under Expat on the edge · Tagged cats, global Indian man, housework, indian food, Karwa Chauth, social life, white wedding
There you go……Thats way more interesting to read….Since you have already added some personal prejudices in your description of the qualities of “global Indian” man allow me to add one more. He should be an atheist since as Richard Dawkins says and I quote
“It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, “mad cow” disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.”
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Naomi Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Yes, this blog was written for you personally, Ambuj:) (I will reply to your other comments on the previous blog when I can).
In response to your advocation of atheism:
Well, I have to disagree. I have noticed that so-called atheists are way more evangelical than religious people- ie they put far more effort in trying to force people to adopt their views - than religious people do. By that I mean I am Catholic and happy to be but I don’t try and force it down other people’s throats or try and convert them to become Catholic.
In fac,t I am totally against Christian missionaries and people who try and convert people to the Christian faith or anyone converting anyone to any other faith. (What is most ironic are people who when they marry adopt another faith just so the marriage can go ahead and hold no belief in the faith they are adopting.) I would be happy to marry a Hindu, Muslim, Jew or Christian…I don’t care what faith my partner has, nor whether he is atheist. But I don’t force him to be Catholic. Why is it that atheists are always intent on making everyone around them atheist?
While I agree that religion is the root cause of most wars in the world (apart from those caused by oil, fights over land and water), I do not think religion per se is evil or at fault. It sounds like an oxymoron but religion can be secular in the sense it does not have to involve dogma and superstition, workshipping idols or whatever - and can be a person’s personal relationship with God.
I find many urban Indian metro men reject religion out of hand, perhaps because of their only exposure to it being zealous people getting crushed inside a temple doing a pooja while en elephant is walking around, or crushed at the Haj, or seeing men throwing themselves on the floor of a moque, or holding their hands out in front of them singing songs to Jesus, or seeing their own mother have a relationship with religion that is overzealpus, without realising religion can be quite simple, non ornate and not contain too many rules and dogma….
There are people who follow the Christain religion in an overzealous way, people I refer to as born-again Christians biut there are those who go to church every week, pray in their spare time when they want ,an dotherwise live the same lives as non believers….(clubbing, drinking, smoking)
Being a Catholic myself, I do find the way some Catholics are in India, to be different to what I am used to…they are fare more dogmatic and strict that you need to be according to my understanding of the religion. Plus the way some churches worship is way over the top (I have seen some where the congregation goes round the church and kisses and worships every statue, throwing flowers over them, whcih is not something you would see at a mass in the UK) and not how I am used to seeing masses conducted.
Why are you so against God?
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Mick Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
God doesn’t exist so lets start from there, and forget about all the different varities of this non existant being. Other than that LOL
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Naomi Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Mick, you are English - and you are saying YOU don’t possess these qualities. I have lost all hope….You are at least meant to.
Shiraz Mukarram Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
very well said,
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Shiraz, Naomi already knows I do possess said quailties but in case you didn’t read further on I meant God not Indian men whom I have no opinion about one way or the other also something Naomi knows.
Ambuj Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
If you suppose that I am an atheist just because its currently the “in thing” you couldn’t be more wrong. Most of the people I ‘ve met or know about are atheists because they were brought up in families which weren’t too religiously inclined, but that’s not the case with me. I was pretty religious/spiritual till about 2 years ago. Then followed a sustained reading of Bertrand Russell and some long introspection, the result of which was the debunking of the entire philosophy of religion I had accumulated over the years from religious books of many religions (and not just Hinduism).
Since then, Nihilistic Existentialism and Atheistic existentialism have made a lot of sense to me. (I actually began reading Sartre on the suggestion of a close friend who worships him.)
I think humans believe in God only because they are overwhelmed by the size of this universe and their own insignificance in it. It sure feels good to know that there is some super-power ,who thinks and acts just like us, looking out for us even when there isn’t any evidence to suggest such a possibility. Life itself is an accident which occurred on an insignificant planet rotating around an insignificant star out of zillions in the universe. I mean, there is a finite probability that from nearly a countless number of planets, there emerge on one molecules with self replicating ability. Hence anyone who attaches a “spiritual” sense to life are preaching a dangerous nonsense.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Ok, if there is no such thing as God, what is the point and purpose of life? Why do I wake up every day, get stressed about work, fall in and out of love (and all the subsequent pain that comes with that), pay off credit card bills and worry about my future. Why don’t I just sit on a beach and get stoned? (Which I am sure Mick is doing:))
Why are we here? If I, Naomi, was a random explosion of two molecules, why do I have to get married, buy a house and have children? What am I meant to do here? …….You are right. I do need God,,God gives me a purpose and sense of direction. For example, I aim to be nice to people and treat them well (unlike terrorists, who despite having God in their lives, appear to do the opposite)….Now, there is a sense that that (ie being nice to others) is how God wants me/mankind to be….Why is it then that people who do bad things and treat people badly have bad things comes back to them? There must be a God deciding all this. I do, you see, believe in the law of karma…. That what goes around comes around. I’m not saying God is a manly figure who sits in heaven - he could be an invisible supernatural power, like the power of the universe, but I believe there is some supernatural force controlling my life, If there isn’t, then what is the purpose of it all?
Have you found yourself happier and more fulfilled since discovering or believing there to be no God, or were you happier before? I mean what advantage would it be to me to believe in ‘no God’? Would it make my life any better? Also why is it that you kind of do get rewarded or punished in life, depending on how you lead your life ( I have seen countless examples of , say selfish people, having lots of bad luck in life etc so I do believe in the laws of karm)…or is that just humans rewarding or punishing each other?
Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Naomi I do not sit around stoned all day, I have grown out of that but it does help my work and as a survivor of the ‘67 summer of love I feel I have the right to my god just as you have to yours. On this subject YOU know just how good this makes some of my work if there was a way I would put up on here what I have recently been working on doing something I have never done before and I must say I am pleased with the results. I just wish I could my best type of work but I don’t have the £1.500.000 to buy the place and build what i want.
The god thing babe I had you down as someone strong enough not to need Rome or anything like that, sad to say we can’t control our upbringing
Just like God, the man you describe in the post does not exist, if a guy follows all the above ‘requirements’ he is not an Indian man anymore.
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Naomi Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
You don’t believe in God either….? Thought India was supposed to be spiritual and where we ‘find ourselves.’
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Neha Garg Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 12:04 am
I think you got it wrong here… God and spirituality need not be the same things. For example, I do not believe in the concept of God, but I am highly spiritual.
Welcome to the land of paradoxe, Naomi!
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Ambuj Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
You know, you do get one thing right in your response to this blog. To the uninitiated India does seem rather paradoxical. How else could it remain at the forefront of the Information Technology world and still continue to produce dunderheads like you. What, pray tell, is the meaning of Spirituality as removed from Religion? Please don’t quote some charlatan new age Guru.
sharell Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Vishal, I completely agree with you. I’m white, married to an Indian, living in Mumbai. While I’m fortunate that my husband fulfills most of that criteria, it would be impossible for him to fulfill all of it without removing his culture.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Hold on a second…It could be possible to be spiritual and not believe in God, as it depends on what your definition of God is. If your definition is that God is say the ‘leader of a religion’ eg leader of Muslim or Christian faith, like a supernatural human being, then those people who believe in the ‘power of the cosmos’ or in ‘the power of nature/the earth’ could conceivably not beleive in God, even though to you or I they are the same. Furthermore spirituality could, in the wider sense, of the word, incorporate black magic and spells, which is quite different to God. I think ultimately when people refer to spirituality, they are referring to closeness with ‘oneness’ - maybe with their soul, maybe with the earth/life/ a force…its more about say that ‘high’ feeling you get after doing yoga…and such people may call themselves atheist and not believe in organised religion or in one man called God controlling the universe….I do think there are shades of grey.
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Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Many shades of grey babe, but I think one of the things people like myself don’t like about the concept of god is that most religions are organised highly with weird rituals almost in virgin on pseudo cannibalism. Now Gaia I think thats how the Earth/cosmos thing is spelt now that makes sense a bit. Mostly in the fact that you can see it, and feel it. Thats the way to go I think.
Deb Reply:
November 6th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Thanks for your intervention here, Sharell. Your blog on your experiences here is enjoyable.
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At this point, why look to date Indian men at all? For their skin color? He may be “global” (at least a Western individual’s version of global), but what’s Indian about him? You find it demeaning if an Indian man asks you not to wear strappy tops in front of his parents - he’s therefore unglobal - but many a global Indian man hopes this his global wife will incorporate the best of Eastern and Western in her wardrobe, yet still dress appropriately for the audience and occasion, including his parents. Is his view of global less valid somehow? I fail to see how someone like yourself, who truly and even understandably wishes to adhere to the ideals established thanks her English/Western upbringing, assumes that Indians are only global once they have given up every shred of their own culture and societal norms. I read your blog every week and often enjoy it. I’m a little disappointed at this one.
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ST Reply:
November 19th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Disappointed? Seriously?
Indian men are chauvinistic pigs. They do do everything she has mentioned above.
I don’t think ‘global’ is the right word but are there any nonchauvinistic men out there?
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I would like to think I am such a global Indian. I live in Finland for last 6 month but that has nothing much to do with my thinking. I have a European girlfriend, about who my mom knew about before she passed away 2 months ago. My friends know about it owing to the fact that its Facebook official. I am happily in love with her but she is not my first and I am still in contact with my previous girlfriends (which have been from all over the world) and so is she. I love Indian food and Italian food have traveled across Europe, cook for my girlfriend and go to parties with her. So on and so forth, I do not want to repeat all the points you raised.
Except one thing, I do want to live with my father since he is very lonely without my mom. And that mostly means living in India. Which works well since I would like to be a part of the Indian growth story. Does that make me a non-global Indian. I don’t know.
But if you counter this one fact I do think I am a global Indian. In addition, I do know people who are like me. Not many. But enough to be surprised that you haven’t met any of them. Both living in India and abroad. May be you are looking in the wrong places.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Hi, Prayag. Sounds like you are a very global Indian man…No doubt about it..
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Prayag Reply:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
That wasn’t the point. The point is I know enough Indians who have same set of beliefs. You are not looking in the right places. Or not being patient enough. Have a heart
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susan Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I am English , protestant 21 yrs. My boy friend is an Indian muslim. We are together for almost 3 yrs. My parents celeberated my 21st year in a 5-star hotel and invited all friends of mine and his. He follows his religion, keeps fast , often prays, whereas I hardly go to church. Paradoxically he loves English, Greek and Thai food , I love Indian Biryani, Tikka and curry. We cook together. We have fantastic sex. We don’t know about each other’s previous relations and nor we care. Together we are so happy that nothing comes in between us. After marriage we’ll decide where to stay in India or UK, depending on our jobs. For the moment we are on the verge of leaving for USA to join our fresh job. We have bn world trotters. It’ll be our mutual choice to settle in the most suitable place. Are we GLOBAL
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Vasu Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Susan,
If you guys are for real, you are truly global
To me, that’s a fantastic example of what a truly open mind that liked to embrace a new culture can be!
Good luck to you guys!
Cheers!
Vasu
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* and that *He* should never ask me for money, some rare occasions are an exeption, rather focus on his career and be adament. - just thought of adding this..
read quite a couple of times, but wasnt really able to come up with, why Indian?
There must be one*, . . just a matter of time
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I’m Indian and *I* want to know if such a guy exists!!!
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Well, I don’t much care for your terminology of “global” Indian (I mean, really? “Global”? You didn’t think about the implications much there, didja?), but my husband fits almost of the traits you list. So does every Indian guy I was friends with at the US liberal arts college I attended, and most of the Indian guys I know today, living in Washington, DC. There’s obviously a selection bias going on there - I don’t doubt that there are plenty of Indian guys who *aren’t* like that living in the US, but I just don’t socialize with them much.
*shrug* The economist in me says that you should perhaps look for guys that have pre-selected to be exposed to multiple cultures and the type of ideas you like. That’d be, among other things, guys who have chosen to study outside of India.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Wow, you are back! I was missing your comments on my blog. Please keep contributing.
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It goes without saying I possess said qualities, but I do try to hide my light under a bushel otherwise you’d all want me and as it is the choice is unbearable so…..I just shine a little here and there and some tend to be rather rabbit like. I wish.
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Sorry just read my first comment and it looks as if you thought i meant the Indian Ideal man, I didn’t I meant GOD
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Ok. got it.
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Why categorise it as the non-existant being? I dont get this. Chances are slim, i know,.. still,
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I wonder who it was who first thought “I know the best way to control people is to invent a super being who will smite them verily if they don’t do what I say” that’s basically my take on God in all it’s forms. Here’s a little bit of where religion is at in England. The Church of England has allowed women to become vicars/priests now these said women are trying to become bishops. This is causing some problems. So much so that the head of the other branch of Christianity the Pope has offered posts to the Cof E vicars who don’t want women involved full-stop. This is based on the bible saying that Jesus chose 12 MEN as his disciples, so there for all vicars/priests/bishops etc MUST be men. OK so far, well what the pope and these other misogynists miss is that the 12 men were all JEWS so it follows that all CofE vicars and Catholic priests should/must be Jews. Sorry Naomi but that sums up your religion and just about all of them. Mind you it’s better to have lots of gods cause then for instance if your broke you can blame Lakshmi (right spelling i hope) who’s job that side of things is about, not some individual who has his hands full with billions of other peoples problems.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I had no idea so many people were atheist on this planet.
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Hi Naomi,
I am an Indian man and cant speak for myself and the men I know, but nobody can speak for all Indian men.
I have followed a few of your blogs, and I must there is a high degree of curiosity in following how a western expat perceives my country and its people. As you may have heard before, we believe in the concept of “Athithi devo bhava” and I wish you good luck in your effort to enjoy & learn from experience here and potentially find a soul mate here.
Your “wish list” is a very personal one, and its kind of brave for you to open it up for a public debate. You seem to have a decent enough understanding of the Indian make and family system, but the country is so large that you cannot generalize. To me, you seem to have a fair mix of very valid expectations thrown in with some absolutely ridiculous ones. I hope you are able to read my feedback and those of others in a constructive way.
In general, your ideal man described below, meeting all the expectations in your blog, does not exist anywhere in the solar system, let alone India; although if you were wise, you could prioritize the expectations and find many suitable men who would meet most of them. Its easy for people to be dismissive about your blog, but since you are a mehmaan, a writer who influences public opinion, and also, at the end of the day, a woman who has the right to have expectations of how her soul mate should be, and have the balls to discuss it so publicly, knowing you could get some stupid responses, I found myself taking the effort to think through, understand, and respond to your points. At the same time , I have to say that you do appear very harsh in your attitude toward the Indian society and Indian men. I hope that your future experiences with us are better, but it also helps to be a little bit more open minded when trying to understand / assimilate to a different culture, and understanding that any successful relationship requires mutual effort , love, understanding and flexibility from both the partners.
I have given my thoughts on each of them, and have labeled the sections to provide some structure to this discussion:
Is there such a thing as a “global” Indian man?
This has been worrying me for some time.
I want to know whether a truly global Indian man exists.
A. By that I mean a man who eats western food as much as he eats Indian food; in fact he would be happy to have a wife who cooks dishes likes Spaghetti Bolognaise or Thai green curry, but who does not necessarily make chapatis, Dal, Paneer Makhani, or any Indian dishes.
My answer: Yes there are a few hundred thousand such folks!
B. Plus he knows that if wants me to cook and to possess the so-called feminine traits such as cooking, sewing and cleaning, then he knows he should possess masculine traits such as DIY skills, putting up shelves, repairing cars, replacing tyres, building and painting.
My answer: Enough such men around.
C. If he doesn’t possess them, then he know she has no right to make such demands of me. If he does, then it’s fine and he eats pasta with me at night.
My answer: Such reasonable men are also available in plenty!
D. Even if I can cook, he would not expect me to cook and clean all the time, and would be happy to help in the house, with housework. He would not be incompetent at housework.
Some nights I would cook, some nights he would.
My answer: I personally know many men who help with the housework, so even that is not a problem!
E: This man would not force me or expect me to live with, above or next to his parents. In fact, he would be happy to live in a detached house with me in another city, or even another country to his parents.
My answer: This is a little tricky and there are many men who would claim that but circumstances may force their mind. Also, if you are looking at dating an Indian men, to me there needs to be a two way assimilation, and by that, you and he have to embrace the good things in your partner’s culture. You can’t expect him to give up all good things Indian, just because they are Indian and un cool. Please spare our family culture, which, in spite of its challenges works better than the west in general! A lot of liberal Indians tend to live in separate cities / countries from their parents, and it can be nice and easy, but once you are putting that down as a condition first up, you are sowing the seeds for a Frankenstein’s monster at some stage!
F: Ideally this man would be prepared to move to my country, if I wished.
It would not be that I have to settle in India.
My answer: Oh boy, this is so sweet, a few billion young Indians would line up in queue for you with this free ticket to settling in UK!
G: (Why is it that women have to ‘follow’ Indian men and not vice versa and all the western girls I know who have married Indian men, have settled in India?)
If I did settle in India (out of choice), we would not have to live next or near his parents.
My answer: Answered above.
H: We would visit his parents regularly though, as one should, but no more or less regularly than we visited my parents. Likewise if he moved to the UK, he would visit his parents regularly. But he would not arrange for his parents to emigrate to the UK and live with us there.
This Indian man would prioritize me as highly in his life as his mother. I would hold equal standing to her.
My answer: This is again quite possible. I think of so many smart Indian men who can balance their wife vs. their mother. And if you perceive such Indian men do not exist, I guess you haven’t had a good enough sample set to look at. Yes we love our parents, but not everybody is obsessed with them at the cost of their partner’s happiness. And yeah, not all Indian parents are scheming evil old hags plotting to keep their little boy to themselves all their lives
I: This man would not mind if I drank alcohol. He would ideally drink too. He would also be happy to sit with me in Mocha or Sheesha as I create nose rings of smoke on a hookah pipe flavored with strawberry. He would not be shocked or disgusted by me smoking hookah and would not describe it as ‘unsexy’.
My answer: Are you kidding me? So many urban Indian men would hang out with partners regularly at pubs, drinking and smoking away to glory. But this is getting a little personal, in the sense that you can’t generalize all Indian men’s preferences just as you can’t generalize the preferences of all western / middle eat / African / Latino / Oriental men. I mean, if you found your perfect soul mate and he happened to hate smoking or the smell of booze, as his personal preference and not as a moral value, you would be stupid to let him go!
J: He would be happy for me to have male friends, including ex boyfriends in my life, and he would have female friends, including ex girlfriends, in his.
For indeed both of us would have had previous relationships and be more emotionally mature, as a result.
My answer: I am sure Indian men would not have a problem with this concept as well, But this can get tricky in any culture. The ever prevalent insecurity about your partners ex, is always at the back of the most liberal men / women across the world. When things are going rosy, its fine to be hanging out with your ex or his, but can you cross your heart and tell me that when your relationship is going through troubled waters, you would be sooooo excited about a vacation where his ex is also around?
K: This man would not lead a separate social life to me. By that I mean he would not attend parties without me, pretending to be single at them. Of course, we would occasionally socialise separately but would strive to socialise as a couple. We would prefer attending parties as a couple. He would not be secretly fantasising about dating other women. If he went to a party alone he would not chat women up and he would wish I was with him.
My answer: This is again subjective to individual preferences. Its fair enough you put your wish list. Roughly half the “eligible” men would like to socialize together and the other half would love to have the concept of their own space where the men get to do some “guy stuff” with their buddies and let the women hang out with her girl friends. I guess the success factor for relationships, amongst both these set of men and women (i.e. the we should always hangout together group and we should also have our separate lives group) is around the same! But yeah, I don’t see a problem with meeting this expectation as well
L: He would not flirt with other women in front of me either.
My answer: Is it okay to flirt when you are not around? To me, there are three broad categories of men that have existed across civilization in this aspect: A. The men who stay loyal, and may or may not articulate / cultivate the image of a loyal partner. This is pretty much the ideal man, and he is hard to but not impossible to find. B. The men who are more or less loyal, apart from the casual flirting once in a while, which many researchers say is actually healthy for relationships. Whatever these guys, are or not, they are not hypocrites. C. The men who are inherently philandering, or later become so, but always pretend to be loyal. Most men who pretend to be Type A, are actually Type C. So you take your pick, woman – there is plenty of options in each category!
M: The wedding would be a white wedding in a church in the UK; and also a Hindu wedding, assuming he was Hindu, in India. The white wedding would happen in Somerset, where my parents live and, not in India. His family would fly to attend it.
It doesn’t matter whether his parents can speak English or not but ideally they would be able to, just to facilitate communication. Ideally his mother would be emancipated and modern.
My answer: Hmmmm..I really can’t speak for other men, but lets say I was dating a girl from a different country, I guess I would want to marry in both styles. And plus I am not sure men fantasize as much about a dream wedding as much as women do. So if you found an Indian guy who was meeting your other expectations and you tell him this is how I would like to get married, I can’t think of why he wouldn’t want to make your wishes come true! But if you asked him his ideal marriage plans when you are just starting date him, I guess most men wouldn’t have an answer. I mean, I would love to get married one day, but if you ask me how, where, when etc I would be stumped for an answer!
N: He would show as much interest in my family as he expected me to show in his. I could happily wear strappy tops in his parent’s house.
My answer: To your first part, I see no reason for a man not to show interest in your family. To your second part, I would have to go back to my point of assimilation. Let me flip your question. Around: Imagine there is this Indian dream guy of yours (and by definition, you guys are living in a separate city from his parents, and he loved you for what you are and accepts your culture for what it is, and he requests (not mandates, but requests) that you dress a touch conservatively when you spend that one day a month with his parents. Would it harm you to make him and them happy? I am not saying all men are like that, all I am saying is that when it comes to any relationship of any form anywhere in the world, there are mutual adjustments!
O: He would be willing to introduce me to his parents at an early stage, even when we were only casually dating, and the relationship was not even serious.
The reason for this would be so that I could meet his parents and get to know them, months or years before the word engagement even touched our lips.
If the relationship ended months or weeks later, it would not matter.
(Why does an Indian man have to hide his girlfriend from his family for months, if not years? Or is that only when the girl is white…?)
(I don’t want to be introduced to a man’s parents when we are about to get or are engaged. How do I know if I want to get engaged to a man if I have not met his parents? I would rather meet the family early on in the dating game. That way we can see if we gel or not. A columnist in Mumbai recently wrote that the minute you introduce a boyfriend or girlfriend to friends or family, that makes it ‘official’. And that is the ‘same as announcing an engagement.’ I completely disagree. There are about 100 levels between meeting the parents and announcing an engagement, in my view.)
My answer: Okay, I guess you have a very good point there, and I guess most Indian families work in this way that if you date somebody, you are expected to end up with that person. I am not personally in favor of this, and I hear you on this, but we’ve got a long way to go for us to change on this. There are always exceptions and I hope you are lucky enough to find families that are exceptional in this regards!
P: This man would introduce me to his friends at an early stage of the relationship, when we were casually dating, not at a late stage when we were announcing our engagement.
He would not just meet on one-to-one dates in coffee shops, but we would also go out in groups of friends. If the relationship ended weeks later, it would not matter. He would not be scared of being ‘labelled’ in a relationship with me because he would want to be in one. He would not want to go out on his own so he could flirt with or pull other women. I would be the only woman in his life.
(Why do some Indian men block their girlfriend meeting his friends, citing all kinds of strange cultural reasons…What is really going on? )
My answer: Again I am not sure you have had a decent sample set, statistically speaking! I guess its quite common for men to introduces their GFs to their fellow friends and see how you mingle with his mates. If somebody has been giving you any cultural reasons for you not getting to meet his friends, you can be assured that guy is a creep!
Q: I would not be forced to attend lunches with girls and ‘kitty parties’ to make up for a void in my life,
created by the fact he was always out. (Our relationship would be based on fidelity and neither of us would be tempted to have an affair owing to emptiness and loneliness.)
My answer: First get a man, get to know him and if you both genuinely like each other the trust, bonding, fidelity, and the feeling of completeness in a relationship would follow in due course of
time.
R: He would accept my cats in his life and grow to love them as much as I do. He would not be scared of or hold an irrational hatred of cats. He would not mind getting covered in cat fur after sitting on my sofa.
My answer: Is that so difficult to get a man who likes cats?
S: This man’s mother would not phone me up on the occasion of a Karwa Chauth ( a fasting festival observed by married women in India to worship their husband) and ask me if I have worshipped the moon.
My answer: By that token, you should not have any problems if he forgets to say “Honey, I love you” on your Valentine’s day. I personally do not follow Karva Chauth myself, but if you forget the religious aspects, it’s a nice ritual to show your love for each other. In fact millions of men, fast themselves showing the love and empathy for their wife.
T: He would not expect me to follow Hindu rituals. I would speak to his mother occasionally and we would go shopping sometimes, but she would not boss me around, control me or overly worship her son. She would not phone me or her son every day.
My answer: I guess finding a man that meets expectations A-S is hard enough anywhere in this planet or galaxy. Finding a man whose mom also fits the bill? Are you really serious?
U: He would allow me to continue following my religion and me encourage him in his.
My answer: Look at the points above, specifically S, and you can see how you have consciously or not become a self centered control freak. So you would not follow Karva Chauth, but would insist on getting your kid baptized some day. I don’t mean to be personal, and you seem like a nice person, but you know this is hypocritical don’t you?
V: He would not be dating me while simultaneously meeting Indian girls that his parents want him to marry. He would inform his parents he was dating me from Day One.
My answer: Again I am ashamed to say that many Indians are guilty of what in my view is a crime. This is a tough one!
W: If we had children, neither his parents nor mine, would exert control over their upbringing. He and I would bring them up as global citizens.
My answer: Sounds cool, I think many men would love to grow their kids the way you have described it. I see nothing wrong in that, and I don’t see why men would object to what you said.
X: This man has not necessarily lived in the US for 20 years or done a year long MBA in London, because that does not necessarily make him global, nor is that any indication of a global mindset. Nevertheless ideally he would have travelled a bit. Does this man exist?
My answer: Again, you have hit the bull’s eye. Not everybody who has done an MBA abroad or lived in US for twenty years has a global attitude. I guess it’s a function of multiple factors such as your family, education, open mindedness and the opportunities you have had in life. There is a vast number of Indians to choose from in this regards, you just gotta pick carefully!
At the end of the day, relationships boil down to two people, and no amount of words poured here in response can directly influence your luck and decisions in life. I wish you good luck! Apologies if I sounded harsh in some sections, but I am just calling a spade a spade!
Cheers!
Vasu
[Reply]
Geetika Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 10:07 am
well said Vasu.. its amazing how you have answered most of Naomi’s concerns on behalf of us - Global Indians.. couldnt agree more!!
Cheers!
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
and I thought I wrote a lot
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Ambuj Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Dude….Shakespeare said “brevity is the soul of wit”…and I don’t think he exaggerated….
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Thanks pal but can we stick with mick please.
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Vasu
In view of Political Correctness in future could you not call a spade a spade but “An earth moving impliement” please just a taste of what living in England does for you
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Vasu Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Lol
Ambuj & Mick: I find you guys genuinely funny & witty and leave that job to you. But I guess I am not here to appear witty, score brownie points, or debate the terms that are correct as per Queen’s English
Geetika: Thanks.
As with any debate in / revolving around India, we have so succesfully deviated from the topic!
I had two answers to Naomi’s original poser: the short one was “NO”, and the long one is there for you all to see!
Cheers!
Vasu
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Vasu
It was just good natured fun but the spade thing well there’s an insurance firm for the very rich or used to be that has taken to running an ad with a similiar theme. Naomi is a wind up isn’t she but hey why not as I have said I can’t have an opinion on the subject really but from my experiance people the world over are under whatever colour skin they wear are the same. The proof of this is there for all to see, just watch little kids before they can talk much but can get about OK.
Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Hi Vasu, apologies for the delay in replying to your comment. I REALLY appreciate the time you took to answer my points, in such a constructive, clear and sweet manner. I didn’t take offence at any point you made, so don’t worry. I also don’t intend to be harsh on Indian society or Indian men. I hope my blogs are balanced and cover the good and bad in all societies, in the East or the West. (I am equally critical or all societies and cultures, actually. If this blog was on the UK, I would be equally critical, you can be sure..Same if it was on Japan, Spain or France….) I do however wish I could meet more people like you. Are you married and do you live in Mumbai? (Out of interest)…
In response to your points
A to D: Great. Sounds promising.
E: What do you mean by ‘You are sowing the seeds for a Frankenstein’s monster at some stage!’
F and G: Cool. (I had been told by several Indians I had met in Mumbai – must be meeting the wrong ones – that ALL Indian men would stay in India and they would never move to another country for a girl and a girl has to ‘follow’ her man….)
H: Great. (Again, if only I had met more men like yourselfJ)
I: Yeah, this point wasn’t at all important. Just threw it in to keep the debate light-hearted….
J: Agree with you fully. And yes, it is a subject that crosses cultures.
K: Agreed, Also an issue that crosses cultures, and both types of men exist everywhere. I happen to be the type who prefers dating ‘as a couple’, as opposed to leading separate social lives….that’s all.
L: OK.
M: Oh, you are not married, yet…How exciting! An eligible global Indian man exists and is singleJ
N: Again the strap top element was a throwaway comment, to make it lighthearted and ‘build the picture.’ Im off in an hour’s time to buy a Punjabi suit actually. I have no problem with wearing Indian dress, in fact, as you know it is nowadays hypercool to wear saris and salweer kameez…many western women like wearing them. Fusion outfits (ie jeans with a kurta etc) is what Im dressed in most of the time anyway.
O: Yup, agreed. Seems like on this point, there is most definitely a cultural difference and one that both partners would have to work on and try and reach some kind of compromise. However Im glad you explained it. To date I used to think that if the guy didn’t introduce me to his parents, he didn’t like me or was ashamed of me. Now, it appears it is because that meeting would lead to him being forced to marry me, which even I wouldn’t like, so I can now see why they try and delay it as much as possible.
R: Thrown in for amusement….
S: This is an interesting one. Interesting because I honestly don’t understand that festival much…Someone told me about it and how their (Indian) mother would phone up their (western) wife-to-be to ask if she was worshipping the moon and it all sounded a bit scary, but I guess if someone explained it all, it might be ok
T: fair enough. I was getting carried away. Most people find their own relatives difficult enough, let alone someone else’s..
U: Yes, this is a less important area and one where both parties have to reach out to the other and educate the other on their traditions and cultures….assimilate it and basically follow both partner’s religions and cultures…
V: This like O, are really the key problems, I agree.
Rest is all fine. Picking is the hard part. I tell you we waste so much time in the west dating partners and seeking our soul mate. Indians do it so much better - getting married young and using the arranged marriage system. If we did that, imagine how much time we would save in the west to do other things, like learn IT, solve climate change, win football matches, write a new body of Shakespearean style works…instead we waste our time dating and it takes sooo long because it takes ages to get to know someone, so you date someone for months, then discover they are not right, and then have to start again…
[Reply]
Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Some how I don’t think that you/blonds suit saris. but also perhaps you better check how old Vasu is just in case he’s an awful lot younger than you
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Vasu Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Hoo-haah! Naomi, I guess you find yourself much more optimistic about Indian men and our society now (or you probably always were and did not come acros that way earlier), and I would consider that mission accomplished!
I think every culture in the world is unique, and expats / international travelers / global citizens should spend good time in understanding a different culture before they can form their opinion. Yes, you do sound fairly balanced in most of your blogs, but I was thinking this was a little pessimistic, but your clarification helps.
I couldn’t also help notice that most of your experiences have been drawn from specific social groups in Mumbai. Mumbai is a terrific city, but there is a lot more to India than Mumbai, just as there is more to UK than London (or Yorkshire, if you there were a Yorkshire man reading this). I guess you are the best judge, but it may be a wise idea to meet a wider cross section of Indians, who are not the young, hip and party hopping mumbaikars!
@Mick: For the records, I am a single, late 20s Indian male, living in Europe. I don’t like to fake my identity online – I Yam What I Yam!
I guess I am Naomi’s polar opposite in this regards, except that I am not lucky enough to work with a leading publication that allows me to comment on life, society and my experiences with European women! But, I do plan to write informally on the theme of India & the world (broadly speaking where we should learn from the rest, where we should not ape the west, & where we should lead the way for the world). I would keep you guys posted on this. Cross cultural understanding along with Globalization is great ideas, just as Socialism is in principle, but when a great idea is not understood and executed well, it can lead to a lot of mess as we are saying across the world today.
Apologies for the blatant promotion of my yet to be written blog, but hey it was you guys who taught us all about smart brand promotion
P.S: The “Abhishek –Aishwarya” Oprah show, is on Youtube, and I hate publicizing for a set of actors I don’t like, but it’s funny nevertheless!
Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Nice to meet you Vasu this might not be in the right place. i’ll let you into a secret I don’t know anything about youtube.
You are looking for a brown Englishman born to a brown English family living in India.
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Naomi Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Very smart response:)
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I am not sure if there is any Indian existing who satisfies all your pre-requisites. But one question which always baffles me, why the Non-Indians or westerners find it astonishing about Indians sharing the closest relationship with their parents and more than that they question this trait? I mean parents are supposed to take care of their kids and when they grow older, their kids are supposed to take care of them, it is as simple as that. Ofcourse no offences ment, I love your blogs
[Reply]
This article sounds like an advert in the matrimonial section.
Can I ask Naomi, why are you so keen on finding a indian man with these qualities. It would be far better if you focused on a decent british man. If he is decent enough, infedility would not be a problem, and he would respect you to your hearts content.
While it won’t be hard to find secular indian men, I would warn against seeking men who would or is prepared to distance himself from his parents as per your requirment. Such men are far more confused than you can imagine, and possibly untrustworthy. They would be classified more ‘ABCDs’ than indians.
Best of luck in your search.
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Its been proven time and again an indian’s existence is always global. Indian man would eat western food as much as he eats Indian food; if you cook and serve with same love. Any man may not have good feminine traits of cooking, sewing, cleaning or other household chores but an indian GLOBAL man will learn because he was cultured and taught to stay a good student for rest of his life.
An indian GLOBAL man would love to stay with his wife’s parents, same as he enjoys being with his own parents. Because an India marriage brings 2 families together it does’nt matter if it was held in temple,mosque,church or gurudwara. And remember after marriage its not about your or my parent its always our parents.
SO DON’T GIVEUP ON INDIAN MAN ITS YOU WHO CAN BRING UP THE REAL INDIAN GLOBAL MAN.
[Reply]
Naomi Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Jai. I am so excited by your response! I totally agree with you. I mean things are not as dire as people on this blog are making out. I was having dinner with two young Indian women the other night. They were both married and according to what they said, were married to very modern, liberal Indian men…and were in hysterics when I relayed to them some of the experiences I had had…At the same time, there are worrying aspects. For example, I spoke to a very modern (on the surface) Indian man, aged 23 the other day, in Mumbai, the type who goes clubbing and partying all the time, has multiple girlfriends etc and he told me that if I married him, I would have to stay with his family, and “serve them meals”….
I’m wondering if it is all a matter of upbringing/wealth and class…
[Reply]
Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Naomi
I’m a little worried by your preoccupation with men younger than yourself, first everyone there is 24, while everyone here is old. But do you honestly think a 23 yr old Indian very young man could ever hear you above his mother. You should be watching Eastenders there’s a Pakistani family whose matriarch has just discovered she is pregnant for the 4th time and her youngest is 19 and has just been rejected by Oxford just try to imagine his mother and that, well any day soon she is about to find out her eldest son is gay who is living at home with a nice girl who won’t have sex until they are married much to his relief or perhaps not,he the gay son embezzled all his families money and run off with it. Her Daughter ran off to see the world cause she couldn’t stand living with an interfering witch of a mother. So my advice is to stay away from Pakistani families at least
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jai Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:57 am
Naomi, an indian man who is only 23, clubbing and partying or even having multiple gfs at expense of his parents and thinks or pretend to be very modern would definitely feel insecure, therefore he kept that condition of living with the family and serving them meal. Also don’t get carried away on double standard of people who would not mind having anything and everything western cultural modernities but question you if you do the same. KEEP YOUR SEARCH ON.
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Is a Global Man Indian?
[Reply]
Naomi Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Now, this is a GOOD question..
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Is this global ‘thing’ a ‘Man’?
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Hey Naomi
Looking at your list, I doubt if there is any such man available worldwide, forget an Indian. Tough call, but no harm trying to find such a person!! It may be a long wait though…
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When i started to read this blog i was quite happy to have been with a Global-Indian Man.. especially in terms of man vs woman equality.. we share all our housework (infact I am certain his share is larger than mine) which should not come as a surprise as most couples around us do the same. My husband loves to cook, doesn’t flirt with other women etectra etcetra..
But as pointed aptly by Sharat - “why the Non-Indians or westerners find it astonishing about Indians sharing the closest relationship with their parents and more than that they question this trait?”
We are an extremely close family - I love my inlaws as much as I love my parents. And had no issues at all in living with them (for 5 years) after my wedding. Unfortunately due to professional reasons we do not live in India anymore; and the only thing we miss here is the family and we do our best to convince our parents - mine as well as his, to come & spend as much time as possible, with us.
So, personally for me or may I say for most Indians, Global would never mean ‘No parents / family strings’.
P.S - Try and catch up Abhishek Bachchan’s response to Oprah, on being asked how does it work with joint families..
[Reply]
Ambuj Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
first things first…..Is your postscript meant to be funny? If not, its a great case of unintentional comedy. Abhshek Bachchan is an actor only and only because his father literally paved the way for him to become one in an industry asphyxiated by complete domination of a few clans. For generations Bollywood has shoehorned its sons and daughters into instant stardom, though in the case of the junior Bachchan it did take four years because of his pathetic acting skills. As such Abhishek Bachchan along with nearly all his Bollywood coterie need not be taken seriously by anyone.
Its great that Bollywood came up during this discussion because I believe it offers along with our political parties a prime example of what all is very wrong with the Indian family system whose extremely close bonds imply the promotion of one’s kins without regard for professionalism and the welfare of one’s country as in political parties or the industry one belongs to as in Bollywood.
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Geetika Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 4:47 am
No Ambuj, its not meant to be funny but an attempt to draw attention that we Indians (this one coming from the ones recognized Globally) are very much at ease with our family-ties to be questioned on a GLOBAL show meant for GLOBAL audience.
I am not getting into a debate here on “carry-on” family occupations as thats not the point.. so may be some other time!
[Reply]
Vasu Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I fully endorse Geetika on this. I personally do not like how we make all occupations family based, and not merit based, and I personally think AB junior is a total **** of an actor. But their response on the Oprah show was excellent and to me it shows the face of global Indians, who adopt the best of the west, but are also proud of what we have! Naomi’s definition of a global man is way off the mark, especially on the family part, and if you guys check the AB-Ash show with Oprah on Youtube, you would know that we are’nt going to be told how to be by the west any more! Sorry folks, imperialism is over and done with
Mick Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Vasu
I don’t think anyone in the west wants to tell how to be anything rather the other way round, leaving aside the many reasons the west is in decline, accepted?. Right so it’s India and China, one thing we did give India is democracy something China doesn’t have in the next 20 years or so it’s you people who are going to be so important in stopping a China dominated world, look what happened a few years ago with massive demands for everything from scrap plastic to rare metals, India is going to repeat this, while we toddle about in our dotage wondering where it all went wrong.
Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Ok, now I’m intrigued. What did Abishek Bachchan say on the Oprah Winfrey show?
Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:05 pm
How am I supposed to know
Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Geetika, I don’t have a problem with the close family ties that Indians enjoy. I don’t want to change that. I am not telling India how to be or behave. What I was saying was what I was looking for - I Naomi, an English girl living in Mumai - am looking for. I am not telling Indian men and women how to behave with each other or how Indian society should be. This was all personal.
It would be the same if an Indian IT contractor was living in the UK on an IT contract and was looking to date an English girl and wrote a blog saying he wanted an English girl who was prepared to live with his family. That would not mean he was attacking western culture, saying all English people are immoral and should live in extended families - it would be him saying his personal preference. So, my personal preference is to live in a nucleus family. That is mainly because I have never experienced living in an extended family. It is something I know nothing about…You seem to be so fond of it, so perhaps if you and I had a long conversation one day, and you explained the virtues of it to me, I might be persuaded to your way of thinking. You have to realise that when people are not sure of something it is often based on fear or ignorance. I think what many Indians dont realise is that we westerners have no experience of many of these things - living in an extended family or celebrating that ‘worshipping the husband’ festival. Perhaps if we had more first hand experience of them neither would seem so weird or different.
When I lived in the UK, I had many foreign friends from across the world and I didnt presume they should understand English culture, so I would often take the time to explain to say my Japanese friends why we did certain things, what they meant, how we celebrated festivals etc…I knew that what was normal for me was not normal to them. equally I took time to understand them, so when they came to our house they kept bowing and bringing gifts and I bowed and gave thema gift to make them feel good…realising that was their culture…
I think Indians need to take a bit more time explaining and sharing their culture with us….Instead of always ‘defending it’ rather ‘explaining it’ and sharing it…Imagine the person you are talking to has no clue about any of it…..the problem is there is not enough of ithis done….once we understand it, we might like it. You seem so keen on the esxtended family concept, maybe I would be too….Its just something I have NO experience of.
And remember no westerner is ever criticising Indian culture. They are just saying they don’t understand elements of it. That is completely different. If you said you didnt understand Christmas, I would explain it to you…
Since when does being “global” mean being participating in and being open to “western” traditions?
Let’s take your plea and rewrite it as an Indian man:
“I want to know whether a truly global Western woman exists.
By that I mean a woman who eats Indian food as much as she eats Western food; in fact she would be happy to cook dishes like chapatis, dal, paneer makhani or another dishes, but who does not necessarily make Spaghetti Bolognaise or Thai green curry.
Plus she knows that if she wants me to possess the so-called masculine traits such as DIY skills, putting up shelves, repairing cars, replacing types, building and painting, then she knows she should possess feminine traits such as cooking sewing and cleaning.
If she doesn’t possess them, then she knows she has no right to make such demands of me. If she does, then it’s fine and she eats chapatis with me at night. …
This woman would not force me or expect me to live far away from my parents. In fact, she would be happy to live in the same house with them, or next door, or in the same close community.
Ideally this woman would be prepared to stay in my country, if I wished.
It would not be that I have to settle in the UK.
If I did settle in the UK (out of choice), I would love to live near her parents.”
And on and on.
Naomi, your naive and ego-centric views of the world and its peoples continue to amuse and surprise me. If nothing else, what your latest blog shows is that we can all define you as a “western” woman, and certainly not as someone who (regardless of how traveled you may be) is “global.”
As many others here have already said, if you’re looking for someone who lives their life according “global”, I mean “Naomi’s version of Western values”, perhaps it’s another foreigner your looking for.
[Reply]
ME Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 11:04 am
p.s. you suggested in a previous comment on another piece that I sounded racist against white people or prejudiced against Westerners. Not at all. I am a white female expat like yourself who loves both my own country, culture and traditions, as well as those of India and the many other places I’ve been lucky enough to live.
I simply find your commentary, in its attempt to describe and understand the world in a fresh and honest way, to be sort of the exact opposite: an egocentric naive perspective which perpetrates stereotypes and shows your own myopic views. It’s fun to see what you will come up with next.
Finally, I have a book recommendation for you: “Riding the Waves of Culture” by Fons Trompenaars.
[Reply]
Ambuj Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Hey, in case you weren’t informed this ain’t a forum for settling personal scores for possible snubs delivered by the author. The one stereotype I can really see on this page is your vitriolic reply which has all the words and cliches one usually finds in a trashy review by a biased reviewer.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I agree fully with Ambuj. I find ME’s comments to be all bitter and twisted. This person who claims to be a female expat could be anything as he/she is writing under a pseudonym. I am the only person writing under my full identity, so it is very easy for other people to come on here under disguised surnames and write vitriole about me knowing they will never be found out. For all I know this ME person could be someone I know – ex colleague, former boss, ex school mate/ex school enemy, ex boyfriend, current of any of the above, who knows…Its quite cheap they have to come on this blog and make these extremely biased comments that do not properly address anything I say and are not constructiveand are just full of hate.
Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
ME. I have been telling Naomi the same things about egocentricity but it’s the class Naomi is from that does it, not being able to mix with the lower classes in the way in which one gets a better all round view of men for instance.
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ME Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Naomi you know my ID
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Mick Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Hi ME
just a little something from a letter to the guardian Sat Mag regarding a weekly page by a journalist, I wonder if it’s catching or just confind to those who’s musings are presented for daily consumption by the masses.
T… D,,…. might be reassured to know that there have been diseases attributed to his profession for a long time, Scrivener’s palsy was quite popular in the 1800s, while acute self-obsession seems more prevalent in the 21st century.
I suppose it could do that to you
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No! but good imagination, i appreciate..
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Hi Naomi,
very well written!!! If you come across such a person, pelase share the details!!! i would also like to know, if he exists!!!
i am not talking about global Indian but a man from any community/country possesing those skills!!
and mind you , only one man. beacuse as i read from the reply from Vasu above, there are millions of men possesing those qualities individually but all of them together in one?? IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
This remind of a an interesting tale from mahabharata. there was this girl, who did lots of penance as she wanted GOD as her husband in the next birth. the god became happy from her penance and ask her, to ask her wish. she was so excited to see the god and that he was granting her wishes that she said i want my husband to have 5 qualities: he should be the bravest, most handsome, best archer, best politiacian, most humble. She named the qualities but did not say that she wanted GOD as her husband. She got her wishes fulfilled in the next birth..
do you know , who was she?? DRAUPADI!!!!
After her mother-in law tells her sons to share the bride, she asks this question from Krishna, why so and the Lord tell her that she asked in her wish that her husband should have these qualities and since no single man can possess all . she gets to have 5 husbands!!!
so, please wish for the reasonable person!!! or the way you are going , you might land up with a fate worse then draupadi!!!!
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Okay..some expectation management is needed here…Cats!..seriously!!!
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Mick Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
yes two
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Hi Naomi,
NO, this “Global Indian Man” does not exist… & BTW I don’t think “Global (anywhere) Man” exists anywhere in this planet Earth.
Ain’t these the qualities (well, most of them), girls are looking in their husbands (Ideal Husbands, I should say) all over the world??
Regards
Ankush
P.S: If a guy fulfills most of these qualities (’cause I know no man in this world can fulfill them all), he will not be an “INDIAN”. Right or wrong, that is our culture…
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This is all very well but from an English mans point of view what about Global Indian women that’s what I’d like, and I feel completely unqualified to have an opinion about Indian men not my cup of tea really. Now when I was there, there there were beautiful women every where but unapproachable, but from 50yrds away I got some of the most sexy smiles. Well that was 30yrs ago I do hope they have been liberated by now. If Naomi finds Indian men not quite right perhaps Indian women do to. So I shall be there shortly so if you would form an orderly queue please
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Interesting blog. I think most Indian women living in Europe and USA are in your position and have not found a “global” man (non-Indian or Indian). Best wishes in your search here!
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sounds like your Indian boyfriend is causing you trouble Naomi.
the one whom you fantasize about being in a jaccuzzi with.
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Your definition of a “global Indian man” sounds more like a description of a hybrid between a house-slave (or a serf for that matter) and a self-hating inferiority-complex ed faceless social degenerate.
And yes, you WILL indeed be able to find such a cheap source of slave-labour in India. It’s what your ancestors came here for, 4 centuries ago.
I can vouch for the fact that there are many Westernized “global” “Indian” men here who would resort to every basest forms of iconoclasm, perversion and denialism to get their hands on some prettier lily-white skin, if you show to them.
So long, thank you.
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A jaccuzzi in India I bet the power cuts play havoc with that don’t they?
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Sharat Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 3:09 am
Actually the concept of Jaccuzzi is not famous there is India due to the hot weather. Our all the water reservoirs are natural Jaccuzzis :p But its still better than the sucking snow when you cannot go out for anything, you car tires skid all the time and you need to check weather.com before planning for anything. The people who say “I love Snow” are a big liers, at least we are honest and don’t say in India “I love Hot weather”. Apologies for daviating from the topic.
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Mick Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I’ve been in a Jacuzzi just outside the Arctic circle what fun. Anyway Sharat I must make a confession here on reflection I rather rashly said I possess all of the qualities Naomi is looking for. I have to admit to one failing which I can see will disqualify me, I’ve spent a sleepless night wondering whether I should own up to this or just let her find out after the nuptials. Just what could be such impediment to such bliss you ask. I don’t like pasta or rather it doesn’t like me. There I’ve said it and now my hoped for world will come crashing down I know it will. Please say this is no bar Naomi give me some hope please as you know with a good tan and some hair colouring I’d pass but don’t know about a moustaches they still have gay connotations in the west
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Mick Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Sharat
I’m going to deviate as well, whats your problem with snow, and the cold. If you see the wonder on a child’s face the first time it wakes to a completely white world which was normal when it went to bed then you’ll know why some people like snow. About four day of it is enough, my liking for snow comes from being about 7-8mths old when the family mum,dad sister Rita and I were cut of by the then worst winter in the 20th century and after 2 days had to be carried 9 miles home through snow up to 5ft deep. I don’t remember it but every winter as a child I would wish for snow and be told this story. Then as a teenager a winter that out did that one but that was fun. Cold well I’ve been down too -40F in a cold chamber in Alaska when boiling water does freeze before it hits the ground sure it’s cold but dry. Some like it hot though so we come to your country and lay on the beach. I hope this isn’t to deviant for you.
Indian men are ugly and stinkingly intelligent. Please do enquire in Mars for ‘that’ man.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I would say that Indian men are stinkingly good-looking and *some” (not all) are intelligent.
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Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:52 pm
I think you should qualify the first part of that statement with “Some” as wll
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@vasu
ha..ha…Prolixity is very much an Indian thing…..V.K. Krishna Menon (the guy infamous as India’s defense minister during the !962 China war) once gave a speech at the United Nations for nine hours non stop, a record unmatched since, by anyone anywhere.
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Hi it’s me again and have had the time to look through Naomi’s wish list again, on the whole I think that it is reasonable and honest. Please you guys don’t take this wrong but it must make a few of you feel a little inadequate no offence meant. When you ask what is globalisation well in relationship terms that’s it. If you guys want high flying intelligent women that’s what it takes in the 21st century I think she’s saying the world is changing and if you want to keep up you have got to do more on the culture front, and one of the glaringly obvious things is past families do not take over and run present ones. This is just one little part of it but look at the world and realise that you can’t get there from here, you can’t have hi-tec India on one side of the road and slums and shanties where women are killed by mother-in-laws because of a slight or not enough dowry.
Naomi smoking Hookers IS unsexy but I wouldn’t put it like that I would say it’s an unhealthy fashion that you should be sensible enough to avoid, I know this pots black but leave the kettle out of it.
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See although I have looked at Naomi’s wish list one thing still worries me a little, she presents as a strong independent woman with just a touch of cruelty about her. This is what worries me, if it was her turn to cook and she had had a bad day at the office, as you do then would she force me to eat Pasta with Boliwhatsit a vastly overrated mess. I of course would cook her pasta and whatsit to her hearts content for breakfast dinner and tea if she so wished. But me I would have to have egg and chips. So this might be a reason why this fabled beast doesn’t seem to have appeared. Then there’s the other things I won’t moan about, her leaving the cap off the toothpaste, leaving the seat down and most off all having to go round the flat picking up discarded underwear and stockings, keeping pests away in the street oh the list of things is endless so Naomi I hope you see that it wouldn’t be a one sided deal. As a special treat on Sunday morning before you set of to mass I would bring you spaghetti Boliwhatsit in bed. There that’s an offer that won’t be beaten between Connaught Place and Galle Face.
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Have been away or not well there seems to have been a gap and then a flurry of posts. I hope your OK and YOU KNOW exactly who I am and where I live don’t you, just so as we are sure that it is me I can describe the outfit you wore that still has me breathless a lemon yellow jumper and what looked like made to measure black trousers not to tight not anything but absolutely gorgeous!!!
But that wasn’t why I was writing I thought I would add another comment regarding the cats. What lovely creatures that have been usefully living symbiotically with us for thousands of years. Love me love my cats hey that I can understand. This will shock lots of your reads my friend brought a kitten last year for at today’s exchange rates Rupees 20.300 in real money that’s £300 so I think you can say the English are cat lovers, shame Halloween seems to involve fireworks now and Nov 5th is almost on us. I bet cats and dogs wish G Brown would ban fireworks.
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Naomi Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
You wouldn’t believe it, but generally speaking cats are not accepted here as pets. Most of them lives as strays on the streets half starving. My two cats are rescued street cats. Here for some reason cats are not considered cool or worthy of being pets. People only have dogs if at all - and then only pedigree dogs. Non pedigree dogs are also left on the streets. I was shocked as had presumed all nations kept cats as pets. So naturally a lot of Indian men find it weird I keep cats at home. Had never thought that taking in those animals would jeapordise my chances of marriage, but thre you go!….
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Mick Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
This will save a bit of time I thought ME was you being subtle, that last line must be your sense of humour. Well I must go because Im expecting a VERY important email regarding travel arrangements regarding whether I’m going to met a friend for a couple of days or just for dinner. But you know what women are like being one this one is being a right wind up. Give the cats a stroke for me.
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Naomi Reply:
November 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Mick., You are the ONLY person who gets my humour. Of course the comment on cats fur and wearing strappy tops was thrown in for humour…Have you seen the next blog? I wrote that Chandigarh was the poshest place I had seen or something - and they have taken me seriously. It was an exxageration…Any British person would have got it. I mean it is posh but obviously does not reflect village life in the Punjab. Have you seen the film? Please see London Dreams then we can discuss it properly.
Mick Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Naomi I wish I understood the rest of you as well, I will endeavour to find that film, I don’t think it will be on Virgin films, perhaps I can find it on the net. I suppose I’ve got to use it for something other than talking to you. But as far as humour goes I expect we miss a lot of the Indian sense of humour I don’t know if there’s as bigger gulf between us and Indians as there is between us and yanks which is vast.
Deb Reply:
November 6th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
About pets, yeah, pedigreed dogs have been the most preferred ones for ages. But now people (esp. moneyed ones) are keeping all sorts of pets - guineapigs, piglets, small horses and, yes, even cats (ref. HT Brunch last week). My friend in Manila keeps four cats & a couple of dogs, so I’m used to all sorts of pets.
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I suppose we owe the flurry of posts because you are working Sunday and as they say “when the cats away”. I hope you don’t mind me using this blog to say Well don’t Force India F1 team, and wishing them better results next year.
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Naomi,
I have time to write just this:
If he was a man, a real man, he would do things that were congruent with himself and his inner feelings. Real men are sensitive to their ladies wishes, but do not move out of the way to accommodate them.
Thus, the actual test of a real man is; see if he does as he like, and not as society (and the woman he is dating), tells him to.
And if you find this man, then you should latch on to him. If you pull out this checklist of yours and start testing him out, he shall be gone.
Cheers,
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Mick Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Indian have we ever met? cause thats so me, so I will be in India in the New Year I could spare you some time perhaps?
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Mick Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Sorry I meant Naomi Oh dear that could be taken wrong. What I meant was Naomi I shall be in India all of Jan could we meet perhaps dinner at the Taj or maybe I could spare a couple of beach days to visit Mumbai. If I might be so bold could I ask that if you say yes to any of these could you wear a fusion outfit, I think you would look good in what you described, would they let us in the Taj you like that an me T-shirt and jeans trainers or sandals? I hope this 5* treatment doesn’t upset any of your readers.
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Mick Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Oh Indian Man the man got lost so sorry.
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After reading the post it reminds me of an old saying in my native language, which roughly translates to “Gold Stone Bowl” - now the fact is, if it ( the bowl) is made of Gold it cannot be of stone and if it is of stone then it cannot be of gold .
The reason I say this is , after going through all the conditions and traits you have mentioned for an Indian man to be global , if an Indian follows all of them, he would probably do away with his Indian cultural / traditional values to large extent. In such case he would probably be a “global” man but not an “Indian” man
While I agree with most of what you said and do feel that most of these are ideal traits for a man ( not global, not Indian, not English but just a “man”), there are few things that are specific to an Indian man. A man becomes “indian man” because of the social , cultural and traditional values that he inherits / adopts / is inculcated in him. if you strip all of that off him.. you can definitely have an ideal man ( call him Global or not) but he would probably not be very “Indian”.
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Well another blog draws to a close but I feel I should ask this question, given Naomi has laid out oops, her idea of the perfect Indian man, but you understand what I mean we have had the likelihood of his existence being questioned, to Naomi being call egocentric. But no one has asked the following. Whats the likelihood of this being, being a Chai wallah, or Dhobi wallah 50-1? but for sure there’s a lot of Indian men so I think she is pinning her hopes on the old safety in numbers sort of thing.
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Naomi is a typical western person trying to impose ” Western Values” on Indians and rest of the world.
Every heard about Global Indian woman… ah.. it would be a joke!
Even today Indian women are too uptight, possesive and “CLING”, no matter if they are educated and professionally well placed.
They look up to thier partners to do most of the stuff….. Taking an example : buying a car, paying bills, house work, garden work….. 99% of Indian women will be looking at thier partners, male friends for help them out. Simple things to sort out..
Washing dishes, cooking , laundry, grocery shopping ain’t no big deal in today’s world….if a man does not know to do these… he ain’t a man then!
If my Gf or wife says she wont be living with my parents then she is most welcome to “go away from my life”. I would say she should bring her parents also to live with us… big happy family.
Naomi, you wont understand “family values” as you have been borught up as an “Individual” as per western values and culture.
You will meet your parents on Xmas once a year and give them presents and that;’s it!! that is your culture and values.
When you turned 18 your parents might have told ya to leave house and live of your own…..probably no support for education .. nothing…. that is your culture.
Living in India does not make you Indian!
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He would not expect me to follow Hindu rituals……….you might be happy marrying a Muslim man then …. would happliy keep Rozas for 1 month i guess.!
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Naomi Reply:
November 6th, 2009 at 11:13 am
What does ‘keep Rozas’ mean?’ By the way, welcome back. Had been missing your comments from my blog:)
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Deb Reply:
November 6th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
‘Roza’ is the day fast the Muslims keep during the Ramadan month (not to be confused with ‘Roja’, that delectable movie make by… Mani Ratnam?)
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Yes Naomi there are two young men who closely fit your “ideal” Indian man. I am raising them. Unfortunately they’re far too young for you right now.
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Naomi, these are all reasonable expectations at an individual level, and you’ve all the right to put them down. Just a few points (no guarantee of repetition from other comments):
1) Too long - better prioiritise them, preferably with weightages, to arrive at ‘composite scores’ for comparison. (:-)
2) Some are legitimate expectation from any ‘modern’ man e.g. sharing housework. Some are more like personal preferences e.g. liking hookah - if not done in a judgemental way, they may be legitimate traits a man may like to keep and not discard.
3) To know more about some Indian traditions (and idiosyncrasies!) with a perspective, you could refer to other blogs like Gori Girl or Indian Housewife (Shirley).
4) Indian men not introducing their dates to their families could, in many cases, be due to ’shown respect’ (as different from actual respect) - something like many don’t smoke/drink in front of their parents/elders, even if the parents/elders know all about those habits (and no, this is not specific to White dates).
5) ‘Always being together’ can be claustrophobic in certain circumstances. To each his/her own - some like to cling together and some go their own way - whatever works should be accepted.
Cheers & all the best.
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we Indian man are the way we are, if you dont like us, marry a white boy.
but I have a creeping suspiscion that you like us and want us to father your babies.
seriously though, why are you even trying to fit in somewhere you dont belong, why not go back to somerset and settle down with a a good english bloke.
but if you do wish to stay here then get used to our parents, they are sure as hell not going anywhere. and our mothers will always mean more that you. why ?
as you said ” If the relationship ended months or weeks later, it would not matter” our moms dont have such a caveat and will always love us unconditionally and we do vice-versa.
are you trying to fit here coz u dont fit back home in Somerset, Naomi ?
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I think Rahul Gandhi is the only man in India who meets ur expectations, except for the part about living away from mommy dearest.
Worth a shot don’t you think.
Jai Ho:)
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Naomi,
I suggest that you marry an Anglo-Indian
These are the English-Indian hybrid community
They have the English culture and are light-brown
and will be happy to marry you and move to UK
There are thousands of them in Bangalore and in Mumbai too
They desperately wannabe Englishmen, and have the English accent too
And yes, they all have church weddings
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Naomi,
I have seen a few cases of whites marrying Indians
In all these cases, it is like a very difficult case of inter-caste marriage,
meaning one wrong step and the Indian’s sister cant get married easily
Some of the compromises that a white has to do include,
become a vegetarian, convert to hinduism, not be older woman and not already have a child
( pretend to be a virgin, dont-ask, dont-tell )
You do know inter-religion marriages are cause of riots in India
Google up the recent stories on Love Jihad and Babu Bajrangi
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sounds to me that your looking for a English man who stays in India and not a “Global Indian Man”
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Well well well… That was one hell of a very expressive blog about an ideal Indian partner…
Naomi, the link to your blog was forwarded to me by a very close friend, with the subject line saying.. “It seems you are not alone, after all..”
After reading this, it does feel good to know that there is someone who is looking out for a global indian man as much as I am and is pretty vocal about it too…
Unfortunately I have my own doubts about the existence of a global Indian man myself… I have been hunting one for ages…
All the points raised by you are pretty valid and in all likelyhood look difficult to fulfill at least by a guy staying in India.. If nothing else, the minimum basic requirement seems to be living with his parents or in the same neighbourhood as them…
all the same, I wish you luck in finding the right guy, may or may not be indian….
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You talk a lot about how many English women are single into their 40’s and beyond. If one reads your posts on romance and what you expect from a mate its easy to see why my friend.
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Naomi Reply:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Perhaps you can elaborate. That was a very mysterious comment.
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What a wishlist ! And I wish it could come true ! Going by the interesting responses above I find that an Indian man with all these qualities would be difficult to find. And yes your wishlist is v honest. Staying away from parents is NOT the same thing as dumping them. Its about having more space,doing your own thing,being yourselves. Despite some of the brave words above,how many Indian men really stay with their in laws(whether with them or at their own place), specially such in laws who have a sense of proprietory ownership over the couple and their lives and do not hesitate to voice it every single day . Parents (intentionally or otherwise) can become a point of discord,power struggles,stress.
Yes , these days, the men in the metros with working wives do share in the housework,the cooking,raising of kids etc happily. But still the patriarchal mind set does prevail in various other ways.Anyway,things are changing and hopefully will continue to change for the better. After all it is not only the husband and his parents who should be happy and satisfied after the marriage,the wife and her parents should also be happy and contented and looked after. Finally what matters is a spirit of give and take in a relationship and whether both parties want the relationship to continue.
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Anglo-Indian in Bangalore = Englishman living in India
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