New vs old India – the clash

91 Responses to “New vs old India – the clash”

1. Hradayesh Says:

   July 8th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

   well said.

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2. Jai Says:

   July 8th, 2009 at 11:22 pm

   A very well written & thought-provoking article. As someone who has spent more than 3 years in the BPO industry here in Mumbai, I can say that the call center life mentioned in the play is certainly exaggerated & far from the truth.

   Yes, there are plenty of guys & girls who go out to pubs / discos etc but then these were the sorts who anyway enjoy going out to such places & having a good time & may I ask, what is so wrong in that? I am personally not much of a party animal but a lot of my work colleagues did have a “work hard, play hard” mentality & they liked going to night clubs & all after their shift ended. Yes, the work culture in BPO’s is a lot more open with open communication between members of the opposite sex (something which doesnt happen in our schools) & in fact, that is one of the main attractions of such a workplace. The fact that its an enjoyable atmosphere.

   Also, because of the high communication skill levels required to get a job in BPO’s, a lot of people who do get in are actually the MTV generation anyway, having grown up watching American TV like The Wonder Years, Friends, & a lot of the other popular soaps / movies. So they are more open to going to pubs etc than someone who has been brought up conservatively & probably has never heard of Tom Cruise or Brangelina.

   Also, I saw that the BPO generation is hardly as judmental & hypocritical as most Indians can be which is a very positive sign. They are more willing to talk about & discuss things which would be considered taboo elsewhere. Maturity levels are definitely very high. Yes, there are quite a few wannabe’s & upstarts as well but then hey, most of them are under the age of 30. Another important facet is everyone has their own lifestyle & the pub-goers & non-pub-goers (like me) are all treated alike & are the best of friends in the office. Outlets of entertainment are considered a personal choice & rightly so, no prejudice is held against either group. A happy co-existence if you may.

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   Naomi Reply:
   July 12th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

   Wow, the “real” BPO world sounds fascinating. So Anuvab Pals’ interpretation that the BPO world is immoral and westernises Indians to the point that they lose their morals, their Indianness, their roots, their connection to their culture, therir conservatism, their family values, and become self-destructive decendent individuals, trapped in dysfunctional western worlds, is wrong?

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   Deb Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

   Hi Jai. Good to read a very balanced defence (if one was needed, from Pals apparently OTT diatribe). I agree with everything you say, except your use of the apostrophe: the extra one in BPO’s and wannabe’s, and the missing one in its. (:-)

   Have fun.

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3. winkerVSbecks Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 1:53 am

   You make quite a valid point there. I grew up in India, although in a very non-restrictive environment, and since have lived in Canada and Germany so, I can see where you’re coming from. The points you make about British Asians is widely seen here in Canada too.

   The big difference seems to be where you come from. People in Indian cities are slowly accepting much more liberal lifestyles but, the ones in the villages are still far away. Claiming one to be better than the other is very unfair. There’s positive and negative aspects of both, the right thing to do is to make up your own mind and do what you feel is comfortable not what will be approved by your parents or society in general.

   The problem with Indian expats tends to be not mixing in with the locals. I know people who’ve lived in a country for decades and still have misconceptions about the locals’ behaviour and habits. They need to understand that they moved to another country and have to behave accordingly. You can’t expect your host nation to change for you.

   The same goes for average Indian in India. They have little or no interaction with the western world. TV seems to be a window into the western world but, TV’s don’t accurately portray life in a country. It’s like people complaining about racism in Australia…….has anyone ever noticed how racist Indians are to the Africans, people from the NE part of the country, even Caucasians. I don’t see anyone complaining about that.

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   Naomi Reply:
   July 12th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

   Very interesting points….There is one point I disagree with. It is this. There are, to be fair, many Indians that “do” interact with the western world - and they include all my Indian friends here in Mumbai…- There are many Indians that do actually like westerners and have them as friends. They tend to fall into several categories, of which I will mention tjust two here. There are the very wealthy Indians who flyy to Paris and Amsterdam for - say a weekend and for whom being friends with a westerner is the same as being friends with an Indian. For them there is no national divide and they are truly global citzens, but tehy tend to have gone to the most expensive schools here and are of a very high class. The second category I would like to mention (I am leaving out the NRIs who have returned to India who also befriend expats) is the Indian that has never left India but for some reason or another becomes friends with westerners. These, shall we say ordinary middle-class Indians interact with us too and share their world with us. I don’t know what motivates them to. Now there are a whole category of Indians that do, as you say, NOT interact with westerners (deliberately) and they too cross social classes and I could categorise them…perhaps another blog:)

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   winkerVSbecks Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 1:40 am

   “the Indian that has never left India but for some reason or another becomes friends with westerners.”

   That’s what I was talking about. I’m only speaking from my experience in growing up in New Delhi. Outside tourists there was no interaction with westerners. But I guess times are changing and on every return home I can see a lot more expats in places I never could imagine seeing them in the past. Which is a good thing and since, you live in India I guess you have a better idea of what percentage of people fall in this category.

   And once again, I didn’t mean to say that these people don’t want to interact with westerners. As opposed to their NRI counterparts, its more an issue of lack of opportunity for them.

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   They say I am racist Reply:
   July 17th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

   Exactly!

   In 70’s South Africa, Indians never interacted with White Afrikaners.

   Which is why they were forced to live in segregated areas.

   It serves racist Indians right!

4. SM Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 2:48 am

   “Not every American gets drunk on shots in clubs, has wild sex, goes pole dancing and the like – the play was a farce and exaggerated.”

   Well, not every Indian lives in a slum and faces the circumstances seen in the movie Slumdog Millionaire. Many Indians too felt the same way about the film that it was exaggerated. Just as that movie dealt with a particular class of people in India, this play may have dealt with Americans who do all the above-mentioned. But I agree that most people in every part of the world are guilty of stereotyping things that are distant and not experienced first-hand.
   The reality is that India is undergoing vast changes in all spheres of life - be it economic, social or behavioral - brought in by a number of factors. It would be ideal to assimilate the best of both Indian and Western cultures and try living your life accordingly. However, human mind has a propensity to seek the EASY and not the RIGHT path always.

   Regarding the Western way of dating, I did not quite get from your blog how it is better than Arranged marriage. Both have their pros and cons. Getting drunk in a bar, partying, living in with different partners at various points of time to ‘test things out’ and then marrying one of them finally only to realize at the end that it was not meant to be and again getting into the whole exercise - is not necessarily better than getting married to a stranger. The ideal scenario would be somewhere between these two extremes, which has occurred and is still occurring in India in increasing number of Love Marriages. The older generation should not feel that they own their children’s lives and young people should be given the freedom to choose their life-partners. But as always- Freedom comes with Responsibility.

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   Naomi Reply:
   July 12th, 2009 at 5:03 pm

   Hey, the longer I stay single, the more I am getting convinced that arranged marriages are the answer! Take a look at India, Virtually eveyone over, say 33, is married (bar the divorced) and look at say Japan or the UK - many people over the age of 33 are single and signed up to dating websites. It is a sad and embarrassing state of affairs that has come about as a result of the individualist icsociety that we have created for ourselves in the west. For example, if I was, say, 40 (which I am not) and single , there would be no duty on my parents/brother/aunt to marry me off. They would all happily carry on their lives and I would be expected to find my own partner. In the same way I am expcted to earn my own income, buy my own house, cook my own food and iron my clothes - from the minute I become an adult. I don’t think the society we have created in the west - free choice of life partner - is working and I think the Government should do something about it, In Japan it is well documented it is an ageing population as few are marrying and producing children creating unprecedented problems for the economy.

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   XYZ Reply:
   August 2nd, 2009 at 8:37 pm

   Well said for once (and for a change)

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   Deb Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

   Hey, your last line about sums it up: “Freedom comes with Responsibility”. I wouldn’t like to generalise (esp. given your initial valid points against the same), but isn’t it true that many (most?) youngsters would want to have all the freedom available to everyone elsewhere in the world, but may cringe from taking up the associated responsibilities (including for marriage, as rightly depicted by Naomi in her comment above) - somthing like wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

   Many may like to go all ‘modern’ (nothing wrong in that whatever), but may tend to fall back into the lap of their parents when it comes to taking the big decisions in life e.g. education - higher education is costly, so why not tap your parents, instead of taking up thousands of dollars in loans which you may be paying off well into your working life (as I understand many in Western countries are forced to)? Also e.g. marriage - some of them may fool around all they can, but then desert their avowed ‘love’ to marry the ones handpicked by their parents, getting the booty (the hush-hush but dirty truth: dowry) in the bargain - again, I won’t like to typify, this just happens in, let’s say, many (most?) cases.

   Also, how many of the progeny of well-off businesspersons would like to go off on their own and take risks with their own money & lifetime, rather than cozily taking up the mantle of the parents’ business once they are through with all the fooling around?

   So it’s a quid pro quo. Perhaps you can’t expect the parents to be all liberal, accepting, supportive etc. etc. without expecting at least something in return (like ‘Karmanyavadhikaraste’ of Bhagwadgita), be it obedience, be it support in old age, be it anything else. I guess the day the youngsters become truly independent, which would mean ‘not dependent’ on their parents for anything under the sun (after a certain age, of course, say 18?), parents would themselves be forced to reconcile to the new order. Till that time, the old adage ‘You do whatever I tell you, till you’re in my house’ may continue to apply.

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5. Rugger Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 3:46 am

   Hi Naomi.. (sigh!!)
   I wish I could say that this is a well written piece on the topic. It is a typical article on the Indian scene, written by a western journo who thinks that he/she knows much about Indian values and culture. Reading this article, my attention is drawn to couple of issues. Firstly, you talk about ‘parenting’ and how children should be brought up. Naomi, ‘Parenting’ is a very difficult skill and there’s no right or wrong way of doing it. In your article, you say “I am completely against bringing up children in strict, restricted backgrounds”. That to me, is a very ignorant statement to make, because children need boundaries and also they love to have routines in their lives. These boundaries should change as they grow older. Sadly, parents who share the same philosophy as yours, do not set boundaries for their children and consequently, these children run wild in the community causing all sorts of social issues like drugs, violence, teen pregnancies, STD, underage drinking, and more. I live in NZ and work in the Education sector and trust me, I KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.
   Which then brings me to the next point. What is the ethnicity of such children?? Sadly, its the Pakeha (white), Maori community that suffers from such problems and unfortunately for the kids, have the highest number of dysfunctional families. Where’s the Indian and the Asian community ?? Negligible figure seen in the data. Whats the point in here?? The strict and the restricted backgrounds of the Indian families that you talk about are majorly responsible for keeping the Indian and Asian children safe and away from such social problems. I see a lot of white kids hanging around shopping malls at a time when they should be at home and in bed. So do the parents know where their kids are?? Probably not.
   At the same time, not every Pakeha or Maori family has children doing drugs, crime, tagging, etc. There are more number of Pakehas or Maoris, who have brought up their children well and as responsible citizens.
   The play depicted a wrong picture of the west and sadly, your article also depicts a wrong picture of Indian and Asian parenting in western societies.
   I await your response before I go into my second point.
   Cheers

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   VARUN Reply:
   July 9th, 2009 at 11:35 am

   Every system has its advantages and disadvantages. Any extreme whether this way or the other way has its repurcussions.

   I agree with you when you say the below:
   ” children need boundaries and also they love to have routines in their lives. These boundaries should change as they grow older. ”
   The thing is upto which age these boundaries should exist?
   The problem in INDIA is that these boundaries especially for girls do not change way after they even turn adults(esp if you step outside big cities).

   Although the below applies more to smaller towns but is true for Majority of INDIA:
   Our system produces women who are made to learn to be subjugated,compromise at every step and less confident of themselves…
   They are never dared to dream, never made to learn to dream…You cannot achieve anything if you do not dream.
   Because a woman is thought to be an individual who has to just play the supporting role throughout her life,merely a supporter in the voyage of life of the different men in her life. She hardly has any voyage she can call her own.

   Do you want to say this system is good?

   Frankly everyone has some good and bad qualities…There are things to learn from every culture…Nobody is perfect. That is why we change.

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   Naomi Reply:
   July 12th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

   My response to Rugger and to Varun is that you BOTH make valid points.
   Rugger - if you were to read an earlier blog of mine, which has been archived, called ‘What I like About India’ it is about the point you make - that Indian teenagers are better behaved than western ones, as family values and respect for elders appears to have been incalculated in them more deeply than in western teenagers. My sister is a teacher in the state system in the UK and I know how badly behaved many teenagers can be there….In the UK too they roam around shopping malls and the like…and Norwich is one example of where you can find them drunk at night lying in the streets. However, Varun also makes a valid point. As it was indeed my friend from a restricted background, who ended up losing her virginity, getting smashed and smoking the mkinute she arrived at university, Now the absolute extreme of a restricted background, and it is an extreme, but it is the honour killing - when a father chooses to kill his daughter because her ways were perceived to be too liberal. Do you have honour killings in NZ or are they restricted to Birmingham in the UK?

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   Rugger Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

   Nope… we do not have honour killings here in NZ. Here is a civilised society that has recently passed a bill where even the smacking of children as a part of parental correction of negative behaviour is a crime.
   However, average NZer isn’t happy about it and we are having a referendum next month to see what people think about it. In all probability, people are going to vote against the “Anti-Smacking Bill”.
   Cheers

6. D10 Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

   Naomi, I think you have raised an interesting point. You are perhaps on the right track about many expat parents, who continue to be in a time warp of sorts and find it difficult to accept that their children are not exactly ‘Indian’ and especially not Indians of the 1960s and 70s. At the same time I don’t think one can judge upbringing and limits in such a straight-jacketed fashion. There are many factors that go into making a well-adjusted young person.

   Whether an upbringing is ‘restricted’ or ‘unrestricted’ is often a value loaded concept, very dependent on individual perception. Every set of parents believes that they are making a leap beyond how their generation lived, to raise their children. Very often this ‘leap’ is not enough to keep them in sync with the times. I agree with you that parents cannot expect their children to be like them. They need to let them see and feel the world around them without guilt or tension.

   At the same time, responsibility does not come simply with having experienced freedoms at an early age. Responsibility can be inculcated by parents through example. Also, I have noticed one thing in common between most youngsters who find it hard to set limits for themselves and tend to go overboard when experiencing freedoms for the first time. Most such people do not seem to have very close bonds with their parents and family. This is a matter which is completely unrelated to restrictions. It is about being emotionally involved in each others lives. Stability of the self is often related to a sense of security. Children who are from stable, secure homes, find it much easier to regulate their own lives responsibly as well.

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   Naomi Reply:
   July 12th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

   That’s really interesting actually. You could be right. I guess I was lucky as I was given freedoms but ALSO came from a secure home, so never felt the need to pretend I was staying with a friend and then go to an all-night rave party (as some of my friends did) or take drugs (as some did) or lie or live any form of a double life.

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   XYZ Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 12:09 am

   It’s true that at times repression forces children or young adults to live that dual life, but that’s not the case ALWAYS as you have written! Many times children just grow up to be suppressed individual with a Victorian morality, but they may or may not have a dual life. So associating people living a dual life only with suppressed upbringing is brushing the whole picture with a single brush. It can’t be so.
   Many of the women I have been in a relationship with didn’t have a suppressed upbringing, didn’t have a father to boss around (as they were brought up in broken homes) but still lived a dual life as modern urban lifestyle with all the privacy gives them a chance to live that dual lifestyle irrespective of they having a suppressive upbringing or not. Many also do it to get a kick from the people they think they are deceiving. (it’s another point they do not understand what harm they are doing to themselves in the long run or perhaps they do realise it but still do not want to change).
   On the other hand, many a times (unlike you stated in the post) such a disciplined (and not repressive) lifestyle brings is a kind of regulation which helps in having a stable relationships/marriages/families and also helps to do well at work (this is in exact contrast with the pub going lifestyle of the urban west responsible for unprotected sex, teenage pregnancies and so many other “ills” the westerners themselves acknowledge. You have said this in your previous posts enough times). In fact, ancient Hinduism promotes such a lifestyle (to have a disciplined lifestyle). The Upanishads have talk about it at length.
   It is for this reason that the post is largely unreasonable, to say the least.
   You however, have corrected the mistake by replying to SM’s comment above. You are right, it’s quiet strange how parents ask their 16 year olds to leave the house and be on their own when at such a tender age they need the parental protection to gauge the rights and wrongs of life. Women and men are left to look for their partners for themselves and there is no “shame” associated if either remain unmarried even at 40 (the west very cleverly portrays such failures at freedom of choice). THAT, I’d say, is a big reason for children resorting to drugs and unprotected sex outside of a relationship and so and so forth. They are clearly not suppressed or repressed. Their problem is the same as those who live with their parents - lack of communication and failure on the part of the parents to successfully express to them what their expectations of them are. It’s not suppression but lack of meaningful interaction between children and parents and is required more so in today’s urban world than anytime in the past, when it was virtually impossible to live dual lives, except if you live abroad.

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   Rugger Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

   “It’s quiet strange how parents ask their 16 year olds to leave the house and be on their own when at such a tender age they need the parental protection to gauge the rights and wrongs of life”.
   The legal age of any youngster leaving school in NZ is 16 years. So legally, the kids have to stay at school and live at home until they are 16. Then its their choice to continue schooling. Most stay and some leave. So XYZ.. its not all that bad as it sounds. Most kids do stay at home and at school and go the university, get good qualifications and jobs. Those who do leave, some realise after few months it wasn’t worth it and return. Others look for work in fast food chains or supermarkets etc. have kids and then the govt. pays them the dole which ofcourse comes from the taxes that the working class pays.
   It is different and some people in India will struggle to understand it.. but it works for everyone here. No students kill themselves because of exam stress etc. etc. Yeah its prettty cool..
   Cheers mate

   

   XYZ Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

   Ruggers, I always have difficulty understanding how a women in the west leave their 2-3 year old in their own bedroom for the night. Doesn’t a child need her mother’s warmth when young? Doesn’t he need her to be there when he’s crying. I’ve never understood that no rationale can justify such behaviour to me. Thats the reason they loose that feeling of “attachment” to other anyone! Not heven their parents or brother or sisters. I would never do that to my child. In fact it’s one of the reason why young adults take to drugs and alcohal in the western world, there is hardly a mental connect between parents and the children. It’s also the reason why, when the parents become old, they feel the need to take them to an old age home rather than care for them in their own homes. Let me know if I’m wrong on this one!

   

   Rugger Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 3:54 am

   Mate.. I was taken aback when I noticed this practice of putting baby to sleep in his/her own room in a baby cot here in NZ. Honestly, after living here for almost 5000 years (kidding!!), I still do not agree with parents putting their newly born..(yes matie.. newly born) in a separate room. I think I understand why … ( mum need to rest, a sleeping mum sleeping could roll over the infant and cause harm, baby needs space to sleep etc. etc.) but i don’t agree with it.
   Bro.. kids in the western society are trained to be independent from an early age. Most start earning money to support their hobbies very early on. Kids as old as 9 or 10 start working to earn money to buy mobile phones, ipods, laptops, car etc. doing paper runs. Some work after school in small shops for couple of hours. Teenagers work after school, or on weekends in supermarkets as checkouts, filling shelves etc. Girls use that money for their retail therapy, boys use it on their cars and partying. (I’m not saying whether its good or bad..) At the end of the day, parents feed their kids and look after their general well being and daily needs. Parents are expected to send their kids to school regularly and meet the cost of doing so. Parents who struggle with money, have access to financial support from the govt. in the form of welfare payments. So basically, parents look after the NEEDS of their children. The children will have to look after their own WANTS. When a children reach around 18 or 19 years, they are expected to move out of home and look after themselves. Some do, some don’t. There’s always a bond between parents and children. Infact the bond is even greater between grandparents and grandchildren.
   Alcohol is a part of most teenagers. Its no big deal. Most weekends is party time for teenagers. I do not believe that there’s a connection between DARU and parenting.
   Lastly, in the western society, children are not expected to look after thier parents. Infact, don’t be surprised if I told u that no parent in the western society would even want to stay with their children. Most if not all, want to live independently. The govt. pays superannuation (pension) to every citizen over the age of 65. Its not much but enough for an old couple to live comfortably. The old age home that you have in mind is not whats here actually. They’re called retirement villages. Man.. the houses are FLASH !! Better than an average family home. So the elderly enjoy all the comforts minus the noise of little kids and teenagers playing and messing the place. They have their own Bowling competitions, Housie, etc. To cut it short, they live a quality life.
   So XYZ.. mate you are not wrong in your thinking. Its just that you are viewing their culture and their practices through your own cultural lens. Thats why its seems different and some of us struggle to understand. Cheers bro..!!!

   

   Deb Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

   Thanks Ruggers for describing the system. The last point, of not viewing another culture through your tinted lenses, is very valid. The point about children earning for their wants brings me back to the point I made earlier viz. youngsters have to learn to be on the way to becoming truly independent (some ways described in Ruggers’s comment) before they can expect full freedom. As the cliche goes, ‘Freedom is a state of mind’. In most cases, it’s not physical restraints that one wants to be free from, it may actually be ‘access to fulfilment of the wants’ (and not only needs, which any parent would fulfil anyway) while not being liable to give anything in return.

   A great point reg. the welfare state - the existence of old age care by society/Govt. makes it much easier for the people to think only about present needs, in the confidence that they wouldn’t be left destitute in the end. Such a confidence, if it comes, can lead to a host of benefits - perhaps making people more fun-loving, less continuous worrying about money (the old survival instinct), etc.

   

   Deb Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

   Excellent comment, D10. I agree with most of what you say - the ‘time warp’ for some of the diaspora (I’ve seen Indian families in Uganda who are much more insular than the general urban trend in India - boys in our office there used to rue that ‘Indian girls just wouldn’t go out with us’!), the parents’ difficulties in calibrating the ‘leap’, inculcating though example, and effect of close family bonds on the level of ‘waywardness’.

   In one specific context in business education (relating to ethical behaviour), we ask ‘Would you like this to appear in the headlines tomorrow, for your family to see’? Perhaps closely bonded youngsters may find themselves asking the same question of themselves, thus acting as a natural restraint.

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7. Vikas malhotra Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

   To All the readers As I had gone through a column today on 9th edition of HT Times expat ion India is Happy to get cheaper rates of houses & shopping well Infact they are not on the edge but as we are

   Being indian we are paying the rents which is impossible for us to pay they can coz they are but How can a person earning 20 to 25 can pay 18,000 per month as this foreigners say hahahaha they think this is cheap plz plz you are welcomed as a guest but dont put blood in the mouth of this delhites… PLZ PLZ Dont kiil the common man by paying such big money u will be gone aways in some days but we are here to survive dont kill our last hope to live in our own home…..

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8. AM Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

   Hey there…just discovered the blog. Fantastic stuff. I’m an Indian living in the UK, and in fact these days I’d say I’ve had a good amount of living in India and the UK (I am now a UK citizen), and my opinion on this is that you’re absolutely right. Indians are still a little racist in subtle ways - like wanting their children to marry Indians. If a white person said they’d like their children to marry white, they’d be called racist. Obviously, brownies r in the minority, but the attitude still stinks. I will also suggest that you do not lump in all brownies into the ‘Asian’ category…

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9. Aghori Girl/Ghar Jamai Says:

   July 9th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

   If India goes completely the way of the West they will regret it.

   India needs to clean up, recycle, increase job oppurtunites for men, women, all castes and classes, but turning the country into alcoholics and ***** with pubs and the like - nope y’alll don’t need that. Believe me.

   Western men and women, by and large, are so unhappy and frustrated with the “singles scene” that you cannot imagine. Many are wanting a return to a more traditional era where marriage and family was promoted rather than “game” in clubs, bars, pubs and discos. Game may or may not be a word you are familiar with in terms of male/female relationships. But this “game” is destroying the hearts of many a man and woman.

   In the West, though some people still get married (homosexuals), by and large, people are conditioned to want to become “seriel daters” their whole life.

   It is so weird.

   I say India should hang on to its traditional, family oriented culture, but upgrade it a few notches to allow for a little bit more mobility and freedom, but not too much. Too much independence and freedom of choice (freedom to become ***** of both genders) is currently the downfall of Western Civilization.

   We regret the state we are in. Indians - you do not want to copy us.

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   Deb Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

   Thanks for the perspective, Aghori Girl - a timely warning. The difficulty to ‘upgrade it a few notches’, though, may be how to calibrate how much is right & how much is too much. I guess every society choses to evolve in its own way. Most people here consider most ‘Western’ countries to be much more ‘evolved’ than ours, which may not necessarity be the case, at least not all aspects as you point out.

   I think the thing to guard against should be judging one society by the standards of another (e.g. West vs. East!), or even the same one at a different points in time or eras - this is the trap that our Hindutva brigade falls into time & again, in a throwback to the Vedic Indian times (for God’s sake, those times are not likely to return). There is hardly anything called ‘timeless’ values - values change all the time and should.

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   Rajeev Yadav Reply:
   July 13th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

   I agree,the Hindu right wing much like any other right wing organisation of the world tries to appeal to the masses of the Native country.
   culture of a civilisation is never static,it keeps on changing with the times,any attempts to bring back or reminisce about any Ideal state of affairs of the past by using inflammatory language or demagoguery is self-delusory,as Deb rightly pointed out.

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   XYZ Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 2:35 am

   There is no right wing organisation of the world jack a/ss. Stop trying to be this pseudo intellectual you are trying to be from the last two posts - and you don’t need to use native country there, just saying masses would make anyone understand! Phewww! God save this blog!

   

   Rugger Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 3:01 am

   Hey EXWHYZED.. bro.. I enjoy reading the banter between u and Yadav. Keep it at the fun level mates.
   Its like listening to a domestic nag between a husband an wife or should I say between and husband and a husband….ha!!! ha!! I think the two of you would make a good couple. ha!!! ha!!

   

   Rajeev Yadav Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am

   thats right Rugger,xyz is my ******,I get exclusive rights for hump/ing his little brown a/ss.

   @xyz: hey she.male I asked you to get a boob.job,now go get one and make yourself more attractive for me or else I wont look in your direction.
   one more thing tranny make sure they are not too big,you see they should match your diminutive structure,you wouldn’t want any disproportionate assets now do you?

   

   XYZ Reply:
   July 14th, 2009 at 11:08 pm

   Your kitsch is only falling on deaf ears yadav! Keep barking! You are what you type. How would you know if I’m a guy, or for that matter a girl. Haha! Just goes on to show your call centre level IQ. You are just jealous you can’t match my standards thats the reason you try your best to shove up your stinky opinions on others (which reeks of those IT/call centre slaves lifestyle).
   Ruggers, I don’t have any relationship with this mo/ron. His opinions are as mo/ronic as his personality. Leave alone having any personal relationship, I wouldn’t even employ him to take my dogs for a poo-walk. Wife? *Shrugs*

10. vimlesh Says:

    July 10th, 2009 at 1:45 am

    Naomi………..I read your article and then re-read it and just for good measure read it once more…….the sad thing is that I am still trying, and trying really hard if i may say, to understand where your are coming from? It will be a sad day for India and Indians if they completely adopted western values and culture………its is these same values and culture which has given Indians their uniqueness and have been a huge contributing factor in their survival for centuries. Even after the being ruled by mughals and british. What i fail to understand is why are you comparing western values and cultures with Indian values and cultures. Who has given you the right to question how a Indian is to live his or her life. Really when you boild it down, what has the western civilisation really given to modern wrold that makes you so truly superior to other races. I tell you what we Indians got from your civilisation, hatred, disease, corruption, division, no moral values racism….yes all this and many more after 150 years of british rule where they raped and pilaged india till they could no more. Now you come back all high and mighty to change us again……..oh the the white supremist who can do now wrong….. they saved the world converting others from their ingoldy religion and their filthy ways into good clean euro centric values. Get fucked. Why dont you take your white *** back to your freaking britan and change the ways of your fellow kind. Install some real good values in them, tolerance, respect, non violence. I live ina so called civilised white country (New Zealand), its is anything but civilised. And its going down the guttter faster than you can say gutter. Go home Naomi, dont try to change us Indians cause we dont want to become anything else but Indians

    [Reply]

    

    D10 Reply:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Vimlesh, as a fellow Indian, I am rather disappointed and embarrassed to read your views. Does ‘Indian culture’ teach you to abuse other cultures? I thought it was a culture of tolerance and broadmindedness - agree to disagree? Just as we expect non-Indians to respect our culture, I feel that we should respect theirs too.

    [Reply]

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 10th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    Vimlesh,
    You are not only embarrassing but rather ignorant and bigoted as well.words fail me to describe your kind..
    why the hell are you living in new-zealand when you have such over-zealous patriotism for India and nothing but contempt for the decadent west and caucasians.
    rather than tell someone to go back to wherever they come from,why dont you come back to India my Manoj Kumar,we certainly need more deshbhakts like you.
    you seem to be the kinds who want to have the best of both the worlds,have your cake and eat it too,migrate to a good liberal western society where you can enjoy a high standard of living(as compared to a third world country like India),where your grievances can be addressed,and in the process massage your fragile ego as well.wow what could be better than that,you have arrived vimlesh.

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 11th, 2009 at 12:02 am

    vimlesh (I can’t even bother to cap the v in your name),
    When I started reading your post, I was happy that you were on the right track, the article is bias, no doubt and you are right in pointing out that the value systems that this author has termed repressive is not repressive but instil in us Indians a sort of discipline and it is this reason that India has been able to produce great industrialists and entrepreneurs that today are considered as role models for people all around the world and not only Indians.
    But what I read in the last part of your comments also brings me to the conclusion that people like you also serve as role models - the only difference that you people like you make us realise the path we should NOT take, in other words what we Indians should NOT be - frustrated, abusive and utterly disgusting and a total “dhubba” on our basic values. It’s true Australian and New Zealand societies are deeply racist, it’s also true that the west is responsible for a majority of problems in the world today including poverty of the third world (apart from the local problems) but you fail to explain as to why are you living in such a country when you know their societies are racist, why not come to India and contribute here rather than abuse somebody like a mo/ron who’s post has nothing to do with racism but a personal view and out of her own experience? Instead of asking her to take her round white ar/se back to Britain why not take your own brown ar/se to Pakistan. But the problem is with the mo/ron you have proved yourself to be, not even the Pakistani would be interested to take you in. You have truly proved yourself to be in yadav’s category. You are a complete waste of the reader’s time and intellect.
    The writer, even thought it’s not her greatest post, has still proved to have bigger, better intellect than you have!

    [Reply]

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 11th, 2009 at 3:15 am

    Kia Ora Vimlesh… Mate..I live in NZ too. I do not know how long u’ve been living here. Its one of the most beautiful places on earth to live in. I am totally totally disappointed in your post and I’m disappointed in you as well. Reason being…Here in NZ and in any decent society, a person does not tell a lady to get F_ _ _. You have disrespected us Kiwis and Naomi and yourself. You may not agree to her views but you do not have the right to abuse her. I strongly recommend that you apologise so that you can reclaim your MANA (u would know the meaniing of this word) not only from Naomi but also from us, your fellow readers. Kio Ora bro!!
    XYZ.. bro !! NZ is not a racist country. Honestly mate, I’ve been living here for over 25 years and I’ve never never come across racism here. However, there are lots of Indians living here who would disagree with me.

    [Reply]

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 11th, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    “XYZ.. bro !! NZ is not a racist country. Honestly mate, I’ve been living here for over 25 years and I’ve never never come across racism here. However, there are lots of Indians living here who would disagree with me.”

    rugger,this guy under the alias xyz has not ventured anywhere outside the national capital region of india so kindly excuse his ignorance on race related matters.His identity is formed from his residential address in which he has been ensconced for the last 30-odd years with his mummy and papa.

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    yadav, you arw wrong, I’ve been with your sister thus far. Ask her doucebag.

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 8:36 pm

    And the next time come up with a better come back, you have lost it in this round atleast! And please keep saving all this in a word document as well for we might have to settle scores later! Cheapstake!

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    First of all its cheapskate and not cheapstake.
    Do you even know what the word “cheapskate” means?It means a person who is miserly.The context in which you are using it is completely wrong.Go learn some English,before you start posting your comments in English.
    Now why would I give you money,if you wont blow me.
    money is supposed to be given for certain services and activities you are willing to perform for the other person,not thrown around on non-existent entities like you.

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    I’m sure you know how to perform those services, you have been the profession long enough, right?! I have the faintest idea what you want neither do I bother. And what is this sending e-mails over and over again??? They all go into the spam folder these days!!! Thats where you and your e-mails belong! And what did you say? Legal action, huh? Do you know what does it mean??? It means going to a police thana as a citizen not for the purposes you have gone there thus far - to spend the night in the lock-up you thug! As/swhipe! Such a waste of flesh and blood you are a/ssmucher!

    

    Deb Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    The irony in vimlesh’s post is that the guy talks of “tolerance, respect, non violence” and, in the same comment, shows absolute lack of tolerance (can’t expect the guy to have heard Nehru: ‘I disagree with you, but I’ll defend to my last breath your right to disagree with me’), a disgusting lack of respect for others’ views, and a surfeit of (verbal) violence. No wonder the Hindutva brigade is having a field day tapping for their nefarious ends such misguided, frustrated people who have the potential to resort to violence at the slightest pretext.

    Naomi, you’ll do well to ask your monitors to take out comments such as these, and the following ones still more full of disgusting language. It seems all scums of the earth have converged on one thread of conversation.

    [Reply]

    

    vimlesh Reply:
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:15 am

    are you descrining yourself deb………so what happened to defending someones right to disagreeing with you???? I disagreed with Naomi, abit over the top I admit and I have apologised for it…….its easy to paint everyone with the same brush and in doing so we often fail to appreciate individuals have come thru various backgorunds having experienced situations and events which you may be incapable of imagining.

    [Reply]

11. Ano Says:

    July 10th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    This is 100% truth. I think author have compare the rich with pover with respect to culture. yes Indian culture is rich so western thinker should appricate and addopt it.

    See the facts of western culture:
    1) failed marriage ratio
    2) early age of pregnancey
    3) single parent family.
    4) more sycic & agressive people

    Even In India this also are increasing because we have bindly addopted wester culture or so call open culture.

    [Reply]

12. Vimlesh Says:

    July 11th, 2009 at 5:40 am

    Wow…….didnt realise my comments would generate such strong response, I guess its justifiable based on the tone of my comment also. But apologise I will not as Rugger requested I do to reclaim my mana. Those are my views on someone’s arrongant blog who doesn’t appreciated the country/people and culture that she lives in and I will not apologise for my thoughts. Call me a hypocrite since I live in a westren country as well however my situation , which I doubt all of you would not give too hoots about, is different from hers. And my situation and past expereinces in life have made me and carved my views of this world. I didn’t have too many choices when I settled in NZ but Naomi does, she choose specifically to live in India and then she choose to dissect and critise the very country that she calls home. Again you, you = all those who replied to my post, will call me a hypocrite cause I am doing the same. However how has indian cultue/values caused Naomi so much grief that she assumes these values worthles and senses a need to degrade it.

    “Of course, the play’s depiction of America and the west is not accurate. Not every American gets drunk on shots in clubs, has wild sex, goes pole dancing and the like– the play was a farce and exaggerated”
    - yup Naomi the play was a farce cause indian actors choose to depict westerners as shameless worthless low in morals drunks isnt it. But when a westren actor sterotypes all Indians as curry munching dirty sweat smelling “coolies” that’s acceptable. By whose standards, western worlds standards???? Its ok to curry bash but the same cannot but implied when done by others, surely not when a lowly “coolie’ does it aye?
    “am completely against bringing up children in strict, restricted backgrounds, when it is inevitable they will get exposed to the what is being restricted (either through studies or living in the west or working in a call centre) because the more strict the background, the more likely the individual will go to the extremes, the minute they get a taste of anything that was restricted. When I was younger my Mum kept chocolate bars in our house so I could eat them whenever I liked. As a result it was no big deal and I rarely ate them”
    – Bad expample Naomi, seriuosly how does chocolates even became an issue….oh my parents didn’t give me enough chocolate when I was a kid that’s why I have tuned into a chocolic who can do no good in this world. Again get real, boundaries need to be set for kids at an early stage so they know wrong from right. Why didn’t you choose alcohol as an example Naomi and Rugger Bro you will know all about alcohol abuse in NZ. Have you been reading local dailies and watching news bro, how many kids in NZ have alcohol problems and how much has NZ been affected by alcohol - an awesome gift to the world and you have guessed it by who. Murder, rape, violent assaults, accidents,child pregnancies. Rugger bro, don’t tell me you have forgotten about Sue Bradfords anti smacking bill, hasn’t that bill done wonders for NZ mate. And for those who live outside of NZ, please do google “Sue Bradfords anti smacking bill” to read whats it all about and the impications it has had in NZ so far. Its these same good parenting skills that we indians have which has allowed our chikdren to grow up with good moral values in life. Sadly the westren world has tarsnised these skills with words like restricted, vistimised, assault, supressing basic human rights, which is not entirely true. However sadly we still have kids being assaulted by parents and relatives and in some cases fataly. And again Rugger Bro, you will know all about this aye, only if you are upto date with local news. How many parents in NZ have been convicted of bashing their own tiny kids, some of them 4 5 years old, to death. And this happens in NZ, a supposedly modern western civilsed world with god parenting skills…..You speak about never encountering racism in NZ, you are amoungst the lucky ones bro and good on you mate. Sadly I cant say the same about my experiences so far, hoping things may change.
    “It is the very children who are brought up in strict repressed households that end up going OTT as they have no notion of where the boundaries lie – whether something is good or bad. They are more likely to end up on drugs or pregnant than someone brought up with a certain amount of freedom. Therefore old India needs to understand new India and not stay stuck in its ways”
    – and by allowing children all freedon and treating them like adults western countires have achieved exactly the opposite isnt it Naomi, no teen pregnancies, no bing drinking foul mouthing drugged up teens in the western worlds. Its only Indians who are at risk.
    “A young Indian friend of mine in the UK, recently gave birth. She intends to live there for 10 years plus. She told me she would bring her daughter up to have her traditional values and would be “horrified” if her daughter ended up like a ‘western girl.” Dating men etc…Well, how ignorant is that. If you bring you daughter up in the UK and send her to school there, she is going to develop emancipated thinking, want to date men, have less respect for elders and want to have a career”
    – I assume, bad thing to do, that your stay has not been very long in India Naomi, however how many european kids do you know off who have been born in non western countries for one reason or another and have grown up in those non western countries and have adopted their values and cultures? How many of them you see not dating/not sleeping with a dozen men before marrying the 13th guy only to realise 2 years down the track that’s it not working and the cycles begins again. None, they all still hold dearly values from their motherland instilled in them by their parents who happen to live in non western worlds. In the other words they don’t lose their identity. When in rome do as the romans do you say but have you done the same Naomi. You have done exactly the oposite, you want to change indians, their views/perceptions/idealogies be it in India or in your home country. We are told in NZ to adopt NZ way of life, to integrate to leave your previuos country/ideas/beliefs in your old country and embrace your new countires ideaolgies, isnt that hypocritical Naomi and her Indian sympathisers. Have you demanded such actions from Naomi. So in essence we should go around pubs getting drunk on piss, abuse family drive drunk, cause accidents and then allow our kids to do the same. Hey its NZ culture, let our sons and daughters sleep around from as early age as 13, 14 years on, shredding the moral fabric of society even more. In simple terms you want us to become…..western.
    And finally to D10, Rajeev Yadav and XYZ, guys thanks for your pumped up passionate replies. I must applaude your unflinching willingess to defand poor little Naomi from the hatred of the horrible monster called vimesh – yeah XYZ I don’t even like to type my name with a capital V. Naomi needs to be protected and her basic human right to be able to express her views on national media also needs to be protected. She must be alllowed to write whatever she chooses to write without the fear of some insensitive, ignorant, bigoted, racist moron like me. Yes I should be more understanding of her views and be willingly to readily embrace her suggestions and kick my values and beliefs goodby. I so wish you guys had that same vigor and will to act where your countries needs are questioned.
    Just one small fact that I should have mentioned which I know doesn’t really mean anything but, I am actualy from Fiji, not India. I have never been to India in my life but I feel for india. I stand up to defand india wherever I am. I have this undying will to protect her, to make her a better place cause that’s the only place in the world that’s is truly for Indians. And the reason why I am In NZ is cause we don’t have anything left in Fiji. The country where I was born does not recognise me as a citizen of that country, I am still a “Ka india – people of India” for the indeginouse people. We cannot own land, my forefathers have been chased away from their land that they had lived on for generations and are now living in sqautters. We have become aliens in our own country of birth. And now in NZ we face if not same but similar situations, Hatred, racism, being called you f**king Indian c**t even if your simply walk along the road. But hey as I said its just a small thing, doesn’t really matter. Important thing is that I need get on my coolie outfit, hang my head and sit in the corner quietly until I am called upon to please my western masters. That’s my place in the world and I have now realised my real place by my fellow kind also…..Jai ho.

    [Reply]

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 11th, 2009 at 9:12 am

    Bro.. I will not say that I feel sorry for u cause it will belittle u. However I will say that I feel empathy with u for the upheavels you have gone thru in yr life and for unfair treatment you have received from the Pakehas and others including Fijians. In my earlier post, I had mentioned the fact that its the Indian values that keeps our children safe and away from all the social problems that is facing the western society. Your response is what I believe as well.

    But my dissapointment in you was you telling Naomi to eff off. That was out of order.

    If you read XYZ post where he says that “The writer, even thought it’s not her greatest post.”

    So we all know that what Naomi has written in this blog is pretty budget and devoid of any reasonable arguments.. and thats why she’s gonna get the stick from all of us. But mate…. the abuse was out of line.. you have to agree bro.,.!!!!

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 10:45 pm

    Ruggers, no showing the stick to my one true love. Her de facto lover’s here bro!!!

    [Reply]

    

    sunil Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Bro….Ha!! I thought you already had a husband…. Yadav?? Ha!! Ha!! Ha!! Double dipping eh matie..?? Cheers bro…

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Its ok xyz,you can come out of the closet now.You are no longer a criminal.
    I promise you that one of these days,I will go bareback on you,me top you bottom.
    You know what I mean.
    Whose your daddy now xyz?whose your daddy now?

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    Dad’s right here mate! I can see him in flesh and blood! Not in 10 reincarnations you can match up to him! You are a lowly life and would remain so!

    If ya so desperate try Sunil above

    

    Deb Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Exactly my sentiments, Rugger. Reg. “I should be more understanding of her views and be willingly to readily embrace her suggestions and kick my values and beliefs goodby” - nobody is asking you to take everything written by Naomi at face value, it’s not the Sermon. You’ve every right to disagree with her, just do it in a civil way.

    [Reply]

    

    Saarthak Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 6:57 am

    Vimy my man, how do you manage to stay in a western country with such fucked-up English?

    [Reply]

    

    Saarthak Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 6:59 am

    aah, sorry..bothered to read a few lines from your post and saw ur in Fiji, thats fine then. Words taken back. But you did say in the intiial paragraps that you’re living in a western country, and I never thought you would mean it as west of India…which could include Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    [Reply]

    

    vimlesh Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 8:16 am

    lost you there mate, so where exactly do you live Saarthak?

    

    vimlesh Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 9:31 am

    I would fancy you say that too my face Saarthak……its just that my English is so fucked up and I am unable to write a decent reply. My hands however make up quite effectivley, if I say so myself, for my language flaws across all languages. People seem to understand me better that way….amazingly. Just a shame you currently reside in UK. If you happen to visit NZ sometime in future, please do let me know so I can meet you in person and take some English leasson from you, hey its never too late to learn.

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 14th, 2009 at 4:02 am

    Hey Saarthak… that was funny…!!! a bit below the belt mate..!!!

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Hahaha! Saarthak, good one!

    [Reply]

13. D10 Says:

    July 11th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Vimlesh,
    I don’t think you still understood what my point was. No one is ‘defending’ Naomi. Everyone on this forum can ‘defend’ themselves. We are merely discussing a subject, which she has raised. I too disagree with her on many points as you would know had you cared to read my own earlier comment. However, I objected to the manner of your expression. I’m sure you have had your share of experiences, but I cannot appreciate this manner of trashing someone else. This blog invites discussion on topics, which we can freely comment on and disagree. However, I do not think that personal comments on the writer are merited. Similarly, I too don’t feel the need to comment on your background, because that is outside the purview of this forum. I was especially disappointed as it seemed to come from a person who’s such a stickler for ‘Indian culture’. ‘Indian culture’ I feel is not just about having a strong family foundation, and decent behaviour. There are also moral values of courtesy and tolerance, which I found missing in your post.

    [Reply]

14. Rajeev Yadav Says:

    July 11th, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    ” However, I do not think that personal comments on the writer are merited. Similarly, I too don’t feel the need to comment on your background, because that is outside the purview of this forum.”

    d10,you should read the comments alias xyz has posted about the author of this blog,vimlesh’s comments would pale into insignificance in comparison.

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    lol yadav, I think you should take your activist a/rse to some else’s blog lest the IT guys ban you here altogether… get over your XYZ obsession… lol. And for kind information… women could write better threatening e-mails to men than you are to me! lol.
    P.S.: Respect your biological dad doucebag, cap the X, Y and Z…

    [Reply]

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    at least respond to them internet cowboy,you wanted my number,address,I gave them to you in the mail and yet not a single cheep out of you,I remember you say you would kick my a.ss in my living room once you had my address,my a.ss is still intact..doesnt say much about you now does it.You like to troll only on naomi’s blog coz thats what you are here for.Go hustle yourself she.male,you dont produce enough testosterone.

    P.S: Respect the English Language,learn how to spell words and form coherent sentences,its douchebag and not doucebag.

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    I’m pretty sure you copy-edit your abuses 10 times before publishing them here, thats the only art you learnt in school. What else can one expect from no-brainer like you??? I’m sure you know how to correctly spell all the abuses, you use them all the while - I don’t therefore, I bother the least to spell check till the time you get it!
    And who said I need to take English lessons from you??? As if you can spell??? Ah! What a parody!
    I have noticed from the very first time you have assumed I’d do certain things to you! Care to explain how did you arrive to such a conclusion? Lets see if you are capable of mounting a single meaningful reply!

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    Your replies,thoughts,opinions and English writing language skills speak for themselves xyz.
    publishing,no-brainer,parody..kindly go and check up the meaning and the context in which these words are supposed to be used before you actually go ahead and start using them.ok I will help you
    publishing=sale through public distribution of printed material,am not selling my comments to anybody you idiot.
    no-brainer=applies to questions which are very simple to answer and not human beings you imbecile.
    parody= satirical mimicry.Now who in his right mind would want to imitate you,certainly not me.
    You posted your email id in naomi’s previous blog post “a new kind of expat” which got subsequently deleted.How else do you suppose I got your email id in the first place you dimwit,I do not know you(thank god for that).
    The reason you posted your id was so that I could drop in a mail giving you my contact number and address which you would peruse and carry out your threat of knocking me out in my living room,I cant believe you have such a short memory,anyway after I gave you my contact details I really havent heard from you.Not even once.No replies to my mails which are imploring you to knock my block off.I asked you for your contact details but you naturally declined being the hermaphrodite that you really are.

    look xyz,I will give you an unsolicited advice,abandon your alias xyz it has brought you nothing but shame and contempt from not only me but others as well.I can see that it is damaging your ego and also your sexual orientation.what could be worse than that.

    go away xyz,you no longer exist.Any further attempts at redeeming your alias by replying are futile.I now officially proclaim you to be the laughing stock of this blog.get lost in oblivion.

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 14th, 2009 at 11:12 pm

    *Yawnsssss* And goes to bed!

15. Vimlesh Says:

    July 12th, 2009 at 5:18 am

    Values such as courtesy, tolerence are supposed to be two way streets guys. One can not expect to be accorded such acions if he/she is not willing to reciprocate in kind. I strongly believe in respect for others, their rights to freedom of speech etc, but it irks me to bits when someone, maybe subconsiously, denies the same for others. I will not offer my the other cheek to someone to be slapped again, I will rip his/her head off. I take utmost care not to step onto others toes when I go about my daily life making sure i dont offend someone, not to create undue stress for others who I share this world with. But when someone tries to encroach into my space I will obviuosly stand up to defand. Be it moral,ethical, or physical space. I accept my approach was unreasonable and not desired but sometimes one has to go beyond reason and stress their views in such a manner, one can be pushed only so much into the corner till he/she explodes. Not trying to justify my action nor trying to appologise. Everyone has a right to express their views and so do I.

    [Reply]

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 9:17 am

    thats ok vimlesh,nobody wants to disrespect anyone or trample upon anybody’s space over here,it is not only undesirable and immature but also rude.
    the fact that you have accepted your approach was unreasonable is proof enough of your maturity and rationality,am sure we are all sane,reasonable blokes here who are not interested in scoring points to win arguments just for the heck of it.
    Although as you might have noticed by the kind of language used by a particular reader in response to your original comment,some of us desis have still not matured or should I say evolved.

    [Reply]

16. Naomi Says:

    July 12th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Vimlesh,

    Wow.,.. You have certainly put me off ever migrating to NZ if it is as racist as you say. I would never want to live in a racist society or country.

    It is amusing though that you berate me for critising India (I’m not actually sure I did…if anything I spoke about the contents of a play and the restricted background of some British Asians) - but then at the same time, you admit you have NEVER been to India.

    You say: “Just one small fact that I should have mentioned which I know doesn’t really mean anything but, I am actualy from Fiji, not India. I have never been to India in my life but I feel for india.”

    Well, I have actually lived here two years…Does that not give me the right to have an opinion compared to someone who has never been here? IIf I had never lived in the UK, I can’t imagine I could claim I had a better knowledge of it than an Indian who had lived there two years.

    You say: “But when a westren actor sterotypes all Indians as curry munching dirty sweat smelling “coolies” that’s acceptable. “:

    When did I say that was acceptable?? That is totally unacceptable. If I saw such a play in India or the UK I would bash it. If it was the UK it would be deemed as racist and the cast and director reported to the Racial Equality Commission. It would not be allowed. Are you saying such plays are performed in New Zealand?

    I completely agree with you that many elements of western society are disgusting - however the way you describe NZ you make it sound the worst of the lot - in terms of drunken behaviour, people losing their virginity at a young age; and so on. I’m not sure that my blog said otherwise. You may wish to read an earlier blog entitled ‘What I Like About India’ which covers some of the points you have mentioned.

    As for what the British did in India, did I say I approved of that?…There wasn’t much I could do about it as I was not alive, but I cannot say I approved of it at all. B ritain may have invaded Iraq but it doesn’t mean I approved of it. In fact I went on every demonstration against it.

    [Reply]

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Hey hey Naomi….wait here girl..!!! Read my earlier post. NZ is one of the most beautiful places in the world to live in. I’ve been living here for over 20 years and love the place to bits. I’m lucky that I have never encountered racism here. Probably because I have integrated myself in the Kiwi society. Sadly (no reference to Vimlesh) most Indians that I come across in NZ are always talking about how welloff they were in India. (Go back then..!!!! whingers !!!). They’re not so in with the lingo here. e.g. If they are asked “would you like to have crackers with your whine” they wouldn’t have a clue about the sarcasm. Another aspect of Kiwi culture is ‘humour’ and sorry to say that we Indians are not funny people at all!! We just find it so difficult to laugh at ourselves. Talking about the Indian community in NZ… it is actually categorised in 2. One is the India Indians and the other is Fiji Indians. I am being honest here and probably Vimlesh would agree with me when I say that there is a huge divide between the 2 groups. There is little love between the two. Although I was born and brought up in Delhi..( original Delhite from old Delhi) one of my close family member married a Fiji Indian. So I’m sitting on the fence and interact with both communities. I often visit Fiji as well. Its a beautiful place but riddled with all sorts of political, economical and social problems. The people of Fiji are wonderful as well. Both native Fijians and Indians. But as I said, theres a huge divide between the 2 Indian communities.

    Naomi.. Don’t be put off by Vimlesh’s post. Be my guest if u ever wish to visit NZ. You will love the place and if you come during the calving or lambing season, I’ll leave you on a friend’s farm where you can help with baby lambs and calfs. Probably teach you the Haka as well… but as a woman you cannot perform it.. culturally insensitive.
    Cheerios

    [Reply]

    

    Naomi Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    You are right about one point. Indians are not funny people at all and cannot laugh at themselves…they take themselves and the world so seriously (I know this is a sweeping generalisation….but it does describe many Indians…the amount of times I too have cracked a sarcastic joke and they have not got it…They get offended so easily…..and if youdare to criticise India or an Indian they come up at you….Now compare that to Americans…they get criticised by the whole world the whole time and yet take it on the chin.)

    [Reply]

    

    Naomi Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    By the way I thought you were a white NZ not an Indian NZ (becauase you were defending NZ so much and stating the attacks on Indians were not racially motivated…- funny how net iddentities can be deceptive.) So, thanks for the invite to NZ. My parents lived there when they were younger before I was born and have many friends there still and rave about the place…But it seems like it is facing some social problems now, that it did not when they were there….many years ago. I am so glad you are enjoying it…I wonder if the Indians who complain are the ones there short-term - maybe for a year or two, whereas you sound like you have been there generations, am I wrong?
    By the way Indians who come to the UK (and Im not referring to British Asians but the ones on work permits say as IT professionals) complain constantly about the place and continually say they want to go back to India and struggle to integrate and only hang out with each other….Of course that is not the case with the 2nd and 3rd generation Brit Asians..who are fully integrated…(apart from their parents.)

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 14th, 2009 at 2:47 am

    I prefer to see myself as a Kiwi with a Tan..he!!he!! Like many other OECD countries, NZ is having its share of 21st century problems. P is the major scourge of the society at present. Its destroying families and communities. But in general, it is still to place to bring up kids. In the local lingo…. its “CHOICE” (which means awesome).
    I think most of us Indians, consider ourselves to be the General Manager of the world and hence we take life seriously. I think if we resign from that position, only then will us Indians begin to take life easy, relax and laugh.
    As some readers would know that NZ and OZ aren’t the best of friends and there’s always a niggle between the two. None is willing to let go of any chance to have a dig at each other. Heres one for u. (NZ is one of the largest producers of yogurt) WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUSTRALIA AND YOGURT?? YOGURT’S GOT CULTURE. Ha!! Ha!! Seen on lots of T shirts during rugby matches.. “I SUPPORT ALL BLACKS AND ANY TEAM PLAYING AGAINST AUSTRALIA” Funny… aiy??

    

    Rajeev Yadav Reply:
    July 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    “You are right about one point. Indians are not funny people at all and cannot laugh at themselves…they take themselves and the world so seriously”

    Naomi,A person has to be supremely confident in order to laugh at him/herself.I am sure you would acknowledge the fact that most Indians are anything but confident.Why else do you think they are so sensitive and get offended so easily by your views or any other foreigner’s(specially a white one) and start foaming at their mouths.I see it happening all the time across all spectrums of the Indian society and media.check out the timesnow news channel or any other hindi news channels for that matter.I am sure there excuse is that they are catering to the masses,but then what does it say about the masses.

    I am not sure if this inferiority complex has anything to do with colonialism,imperialism or poverty,an argument put forth by many Indians quite frequently.
    we need to look at the west indies isles and other former erstwhile european colonies in africa,which are equally impoverished nation states as India.You will notice most of their citizens always making fun of themselves,laughing at their own habits and idiosyncracies and generally having a good time with sarcastic jokes.
    I must say the funniest people I have met are the jamaicans,guyanese and trinidadians of the west Indies isles currently in the UK.They are the coolest guys when it comes to having fun and a good time..very bohemian and laidback in their approach to life.
    Australians can be pretty funny too at times but they dont have that element of cool like the west indians.

    

    Deb Reply:
    July 14th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Rajeev, you may be partially correct. Without going into the merits of that, let me say that Generation Y in India (roughly defined as those born in mid-80s & beyond, perhaps coterminus with the first economic liberalisation or Delhi Asiad ‘84, take your pick) do not seem afflicted with this. They are quite self-assured, ‘with it’ and able to hold their own in any situation. Ditto, they are also more fun-loving & also able to laugh at themselves, unlike their uptight predecessor in Gen-X perhaps. Gives one hope.

17. Naomi Says:

    July 12th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    On a separate point, while in Rome one should do as the Romans do, the host country should also demonstrate a certain level of tolerance towards outsiders. That is why the UK has always been so attractive to asylum seekers and immigrants as they know they can, to an extent, live according to their own culture. Asian immigrants in the UK wear Asian dress, speak Asian languages, shop in Asian shops, hang with each other, have arranged marriages and worship in their temples. They are not forced to eat British food or adopt western lifestyles. I am against the stance of France putting a ban on the burka. The president recently said it was not “welcome” In France. I think that is wrong….India too has a history of being tolerant to many differnt outsiders which is how the Parsis have been assimilated into Indian society and many westerners enjoy living here.

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 12th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Cheers to your Burka stand!

    [Reply]

    

    Saarthak Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:05 am

    Cheers to tolerance!

    [Reply]

    

    XYZ Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    My? or Ni’s?

18. vimlesh Says:

    July 13th, 2009 at 1:26 am

    Naomi………seems like I judged you wrongly, for which i am sorry.

    [Reply]

    

    Rugger Reply:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Cheers bro for that..!!

    [Reply]

19. Deb Says:

    July 13th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Naomi, just one last point. Reg. “If you bring you daughter up in the UK and send her to school there, she is going to develop emancipated thinking, want to date men, have less respect for elders and want to have a career.” Were you referring to your acquaintance’s statement there, or commenting generally? While I can identify the positive points of all the other three phrases, the “less respect for elders” bit is lost on me. What has respect for elders have to do with emancipated thinking (even if spoken ironically). The association seems a pure conjecture.

    [Reply]

    

    Bhindra Reply:
    July 15th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    Maybe it refers to our unwillingness to follow our elders without question. For example, alcohol. Some of my Uncles from India will lecture me about drinking every time they see me with even a beer bottle. But they’ll think nothing of drinking whiskey on our balcony late into the night! (Uncles means anyone more than 10 years older than me.)

    [Reply]

    

    Deb Reply:
    July 15th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Hmmm…. That puts things in the correct light, if that’s what is meant by “less respect for elders”. I suppose hypocrite elders have no right to expect unflinching respect from their children.

    [Reply]

20. ankur kakkar Says:

    July 15th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    hi naomi,

    i have launched a book review website with an old school friend of mine : http://bhejakhol.wordpress.com/ …

    i really want you to check it out .. i hope u like it !!
    plz send a request to bhejakhol@gmail.com , if you wish to read our 1st newsletter …

    sorry for this shameless self-promotion …

    [Reply]

21. Aghori Girl/Ghar Jamai Says:

    July 16th, 2009 at 1:27 am

    Regarding burkas in France. If you study the history of France and its struggle against Catholic take over of the secular sphere, you will understand why they are warry of ANY external signs of religion - burqa or pagri (for Sikhs) or even the wearing of a cross around one’s neck in public.

    Its not just about the burqa.

    In Saudi even non-muslim women are required by law to wear hijab. What is up with THAT?

    Nonetheless, immigrants to any country should make efforts to “fit in” as much as possible.

    [Reply]

22. krish23 Says:

    July 28th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    hmmm…. this is the first time im participating in a blog may be that itself kicks me out of your league. naomi you are brilliant in the ways you express the cultural divide and generation gap in the west and east. and its true that we exaggerate things about each other. i might sound like a person of the 19th century but don’t you think that following one’s own traditions and culture rather than aping others is better for a person. i really think that india has a great culture be it with being conservative, religious, caring more about their kids, thinking more about your kids- the way they grow up, their relationships, their future and what not by parents than oneself. here all parents work hard in what not conditions to give the best facilities for their children and these young ones enjoy those fruits growing from their hardships and in turn accuse their parents of interfering in their life. dont our parents have the right to interfere in our life???? and how in the world do such elders become hypocrites and people expecting unflinching respect from their young ones??? i know that im going to be kicked around by all you guys but still im strong in what i believe…

    [Reply]

23. jel Says:

    September 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am

    Being a fijian indian i dont see how you vimlesh can go around supporting a country like india. Sorry if this may offend people. Our ancestors have left that country years ago migrated to fiji. Even my dad doesnt and grandparents dont support india its cause part of fiji is still with us whether we like it or not and only wish for the best cause it was the country we grew up with and both native and indian culture has been engraved within us. I find it stupid you go around supporting a country you have never been to and defend it, it is one the most corrupted countries that even abuse their own people one of my dads best mate who happens to be from india told us this, it is true our ancestors came from there but that is the only relationship we have. People from india dont want to associate themselves with fijian indians and carribean indians like from trinidad and guayana dont believe me go type it on the internet. I really hate the attitude when people tend to associate the west with teenage pregnancies its more then that. Its an individuals fault they become pregnant not the west itself. I reckon its more important for you vimlesh to go and connect with diasporic indians from carribean and uganda since we have alot in common with them then ones from india like slavery and the stupid british constitution that ruined our lives.

    Peace to everyone

    [Reply]

24. jel Says:

    September 8th, 2009 at 9:22 am

    From experience i reckon kiwis are the most friendliest people ever like the irish and even i like their jokes. The only way people can intergrate if people stop stereotyping kiwis to be be this and that and get to know them more as individuals rather then as a race. Just like vimlesh said he supports india wherever he goes which i find plain hilarious for me its the opposite. I support fiji whever i go and wherever i am burried. The love i have for fiji and its culture is something else. I will also defend it too and pray for harmony and will hope both natives and indians will become one through love.

    [Reply]

25. fix credit Says:

    September 13th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    fix credit…

    I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don\’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often….

26. jel Says:

    September 17th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    another thing i 4got to mention is that alot of fijian indians drink alcohol esp rum and beer cause when the british gave my ancestors the permission to drink alcohol to them it was a big thing that they started drinking with pride and that is how the drinking culture evolved among us. so to just confine the drinking culture among kiwis makes us look like hypocrites

    [Reply]

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