A Matter Of Taste



Jazz legend Duke Ellington, who’s credited with many interesting quotes on jazz, blues and music critics is believed to have once said: “There are two kinds of music. Good music and the other kind.” But what’s good and what’s the other kind is entirely a matter of individual taste. Mentioning Ellington’s quote, a recent article in Uncut magazine said perhaps The Beatles are one those rare bands on whom there is a consensus. Everybody thinks The Beatles made great music.

British singer-songwriter Richard Thompson’s work spans almost five decades.

Come to think of it, when I used to blast music as a teenager living with my parents, the only band that my parents didn’t object to was The Beatles. Indeed, my mother, who turned 80 this year, once confessed to me back in the nineteen-seventies that she found Paul McCartney (as he looked on the covers of many of the band’s LPs) “cute”. I remember trying to get her to check out Mick Jagger, my then favourite rockstar but the response wasn’t encouraging.

It’s not easy to find people who like all the music that you like. I get quite a few responses to this column that border on the hostile. I’ve had one or two readers who have even said I write about “noise” and not “music”. But then, I’m sure even Ellington would have agreed that one man’s noise can be another’s music.

It may be rare to come across people whose tastes in music mirror yours but just think of it in another way: how boring would it be if you constantly encountered people whose playlists are exactly like yours? That’s one reason why I constantly experiment with other people’s music selections. It’s one of the best ways of discovering new music. I mentioned Uncut, the UK music magazine at the beginning of this column. With each month’s issue, Uncut gives out a complimentary CD of compiled music, which is like a treasure trove if you’re into discovering new bands.

Very often Uncut’s free CD is related to the magazine’s theme. Songs that inspired the Rolling Stones could be one; a famous musician’s picks could be another. Usually, the music on the CD has something to do with the cover story of the magazine. This month, which marked the 150th issue of the magazine, Uncut has a feature on the magazine’s list of the 150 best albums of the decade. And the accompanying CD has 15 tracks from Uncut’s 150 albums of the year. Fifteen tracks from 150 albums can’t be representative, unless Uncut decides to have sequels with forthcoming issues, but what struck me was how the CD helped me discover music that had slipped by me over the past several years.

I’d never heard the band Lift To Experience so the track from their album The Texas-Jerusalem Crossroads was a real surprise. I learnt that the band are a trio (not sure whether they’re still around) from Texas. Their music reminded me a bit of singer-songwriter Jeff Buckley, who died from drowning when he was just 30. Lift To Experience’s song Just As Was Told reminded me of Buckley’s dark, emotional and bittersweet album, Grace, which came out in 1994.

The Uncut CD had a song from Ryan Adam’s Heartbreaker album (2000), which was not bad. I’m no great fan of the prolific Adams who seems to churn out albums at a frenetic pace. But there were tracks that really made the grade, such as Okkervil River’s excellent Our Life Is Not A Movie Or Maybe from 2007’s The Stage Names; The Felice Brothers’ Don’t Wake The Scarecrow from their eponymous album that came out last year; The Hold Steady’s brilliant First Night off their 2006 album Boys And Girls In America; and Drive-By Truckers’ lovely jam-heavy Lookout Mountain from The Dirty South (2004).

As well as these, there were tracks from others—bands such as Wilco, Calexico and the Willard Grant Conspiracy and singer-songwriters like Richard Thompson and Robert Wyatt. The last two I’d not really heard much—a track here and there. Thompson, a British singer-songwriter, is a former member of the legendary folk-rock band, Fairport Convention, and has a body of music that spans nearly five decades. And Wyatt, a founder member of the influential Soft Machine, is also British and one of the pioneers of progressive and fusion genres in rock. Thompson is 60 and Wyatt 64 (and confined to a wheelchair); both are still active, recording and releasing new music. I have Wyatt’s Comicopera, released in 2007, which demonstrates that you don’t have to be a spring chicken to be hip and edgy. It’s not often that you get a playlist that’s so engaging that you’d be hard put trying to re-organise it. Uncut’s free CD this time is like that.

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  • Lew

    I seem to recall the Rolling Stones and Beatles churning out albums at a frenetic pace too, and not all of them were masterpieces but nobody muttered oh if only they weren’t so prolific. Heartbreaker is for some reason the Ryan Adams album that critics decided to promote but it’s not his best. Love Is Hell and Cold Roses are both masterpieces, and all of his albums have something worthwhile on them.

    [Reply]

    Sanjoy Narayan Reply:

    Sure they do. I have both– Love is Hell and Cold Roses. Nice. But great? Perhaps not.

    [Reply]

  • http://roadsandreasons.blogspot.com/ Ashish

    Great post. You’re so right, it’s all a matter of taste at the end of it. But what really ticks me off is when people say things like “how can you listen to that ****!” Get a life is what I tell them. If you don’t like it then, just say so. No need to rubbish the music or the person who listens to it. And these are usually the people who think ‘Pappu can’t dance saala’ is the best song of the year. Enough said.

    Have been introduced to some interesting bands and music via your blog. Enjoyed some and did not enjoy some (maybe a few more listens will help). Keep it coming.

    [Reply]

    Sanjoy Narayan Reply:

    Thank you for your comment. Yes, it is indeed a matter of taste. I get flak all the time for the music I rave about. :) Don’t really care. Let people get their jollies from whatever does it for them.

    [Reply]

  • Karishma

    Awesome post! I love checking out the new music you keep unearthing.. Again, dont find all of it to my taste, but like you said, life would be really boring if we all liked the same stuff!

    I didnt know about Jeff Buckley before and now, I’m gonna start looking for his music.

    Keep up the good work. I’m glad I have one more thing to look forward to on Sundays now. :) Thank you for that. :D

    [Reply]

  • Irshad Daftari

    Buckley’s music certainly needs more discovery, for the sheer inspiration he’s had on modern day bands. Radiohead may have been his peers but I can hear shades of Buckley in them. Others would include Coldplay, Starsailor, Ryan Adams, Rufus Wainwright, maybe Badly Drawn Boy. His other CD, Sketches from My Sweetheart The Drunk ( a collection of outtakes from the unreleased album) was just super. His death was music’s loss :(

    I really like the sound of ‘Lift To Experience’…thanks for sharing that.

    [Reply]

    Sanjoy Narayan Reply:

    Thank you for your mail. Agree with you about Buckley. Big loss.

    [Reply]

  • Sanjay Ghosh

    You had it coming, man. I told you long ago, you were playing with fire. Diddling the real music world to the general public.

    I stumbled upon Uncut some years ago. Quite high on that year end list were Belle & Sebastian’s Boy with the Arab Strap and Air’s Moon Safari. I still can’t understand their obsession with Ryan Adams though. That apart, their lists throw up very interesting new bands. Usually before other people have caught on. Somewhat like John Peel.

    These lists usually have a selector’s bias but I almost always find a few quirky ‘exceptions’. There’s also the racial prejudice bit. Chuck D’s list had no white band on it. Lists usually map the lister’s mind more than anything else.

    There’s an interesting list brought out by Wire magazine many years ago, called the 100 Albums that ’set the world on fire’, when no one was listening.

    [Reply]

    Sanjoy Narayan Reply:

    Hey. thanks for the mail. I’d love to check out the old Wire mag’s list of 100. Is it online?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In the previous blog there was very interesting discussion going on about dogs.
    I cannot resit myself from posting in my own style.
    Guys no offence to anyone just take it as a joke.

    Discussion was going among few people about benefits of daru v/s roti.
    One person got up and said – probabaly from my tribe -

    DARU PIYO AUR INDSSAN BANO
    ROTI TO SAALE KUTEY BHI KHATEIN HAIN.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Nice one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mohan

    My dog once ate roti, which my son accidently dipped into my glass of scotch.

    I can swear that the dog has a “yeh dog maang mor” look… ever since..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    One day we will sit together and feed your dog rotis soaked with
    whiskey.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am sure… he will be wagging his tail ever after that…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    it only goes to prove the adage, “Do not ***** in front of a dog, do not drink in front of a child”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy,

    Nice one .

  • Anonymous

    manohar-

    I do not think US has a clue on the pakistani nukes – If so, the whole thing would have been over if they knew where it is…I wish and pray US can denuke them so we can also pursue attacks of their terror training camps deep insid etheir territorry without fearing a nuke trigger by their crazy terrorist army.

    US will take Haquani brothers if they knew the location.. But it may not just be the brothers; I believe they have a deep bench there; plus they may have strong supporters in the army an ISI.
    I believe the public opinion i USA will support a Abotsbad hit on as many as possible including taking out a few generals

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    It is not so simple. Even the USA cannot just walk in and get hold of the assets. Apparently, the world is a less barbaric place today. International sensibilities have to be taken into account.

    When the time comes, it will surely act. With all its sophisticated surveillance systems (satellites and on the ground) in place, it must be surely in the know of things at all times.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar-

    I do not think usa is waiting on any niceties..If it could, it would have, rather than waiting for permision etc.. You know it took 10 years to nail Osama with all the satellites and sophisticated technology… The reason they have not gone deep inside is due to the fear of nukes; rogue elements using against amerikans, Indians etc (including dirty bomb)..the would have pulverized them by now..
    the land of the pure is now the land of the toxic…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Osama and nuclear assets are two different things. The latter are fewer in number and not so difficult to track. It is easier for person to get lost among the millions.

    When it matters, it will not wait for anybody’s permission. IMO, they do not feel the time has come as yet.

    engrich Reply:

    correct

  • Anonymous

    I do not think it would be like that.

    The operation would have secret and tacit approval of the Pakistani establishment (as it appears to be the case with Abbottabad raid). Pakistan does not wish to be seen as targeting coreligionists especially on its own soil. They will then make standard noises about its sovereignity being violated, blah, blah, blah.

    The question as to why the ISI/Haqqani network targeted US interests in Afghanistan? Any answers?

    IMO, China will do so much not more – as we know, it is using Pakistan to further its own strategic interests. They have no love for them (for that matter anybody else) as such.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    Do you really believe there is a Pakistani “establishment” anymore? If so, who will it be?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    There must be something – there cannot be a vacuum. Seems, the army has kept the main portfolios for themselves, especially foreign policy – that includes exporting terror, the civilian government then has to keep making the “right” noises in support.

    We do not know with whom to talk, but the USA clearly knows.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    even kayani does not look like to be in the know –but you are right; somebody has to be there!

  • Anonymous

    Very disturbing news from Pakistan.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/hate-campaign-against-family-of-pak-girl-accused-of-blasphemy/20110926.htm

    I was very disturbed after reading this news. I called my ex boss who is in Karachi
    now. He almost cried and said this – he is a memon – “haan ta khuda bi Pakistan
    khe na bachaye sagdo” Even God cannot save Pakistan now.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Raju,
    Yes you are right. Owasi is already asking for Dalit stautus for muslims. By the way very inspiring story from your state.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/report/how-an-ordinary-man-served-thousands-in-kerala/20110926.htm

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rajeev

    It would be sad in case Chidambaram goes. He did look more efficient than Shivraj Patil. Chances are Congress will go back to some hackneyed politcian as a replacement. We should not forget we face a terror threat from a mad cap neighbour

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mr Sharma,
    I was no better informed or enlightened after reading your blog than I was before it. There is no coherant thought that I could find. May be I should look harder. Anyway, Mr Gilani’s statement that ‘USA cannot live with or without Pakistan” is typical of the following that a mouse told an elephant as they both crossed a bridge.
    “The bridge is shaking because of you and me”.
    The current Pak reaction to public US accusations is typical of Pak establishment. They have reacted with hysteria and bombast. After all, that kind of reaction has helped them on many previous occasions. Anytime, Pakistan State mounts a terrorist attck on India, from Mumbai to Indian Parliament to Kabul mission and India contemplates what it can do, the Pak establsihment launches a nuclear war hysteria , painting a doomsday scenerio, with suicidal bombast to get attention and divert issues.

    That strategy has worked before against India. It needs to be see how far that strategy succeeds against USA.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Who will find no seat, when the music stops

    Most analysts point out that what is happening in Afghanistan and its Eastern border is powerful groups jostling for status in post war Afghanistan. Haqqani group of mercenaries are no different in this respect.

    The Major contenders for power and influence are, the US backed Afghan Government, The Pakistan backed Afghan Taliban, The Independant Haqqani Group, Pakistan and India. The ultimate prize is who is able to exercise hegemony in Afghanistan.

    US’s preferred scenario is; to allow India a significant role and Pakistan sees that as the US and India meddling in its backyard and all its activities must be seen in this context. Its fear is that India may encircle it, just as China is encircling India by using Pakistan as its western proxy.

    The Haqqani’s are playing a complex game, but essentially, they want to secure their business interests; smuggling, protection, trucking, etc. The ISI has outsourced some of its interests to the Haqqanis who for a price are willing to their dirty work in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants Afghanistan to become its client state.

    The Afghan Taliban and the Afghan Government may come to a compromised power sharing agreement, just as the US is about to leave.

    In this game of musical chairs, guess who may find no where to sit when the music stops.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    You are favouring Pakistan in delineating various players. Pak backed Taliban, Haqquani network, and Pak — these are not three different entities; they are just one for all practical purposes.

    Pakistan is finally going to be “undone” by its duplicity, double dealings, treachery..

    But what does one expect from a group of people who disowns their own parentage?

    May be the tragedy of Pakistan started when they hung Zulfiker.. Or may be the seed was sown on day 1 when they named it “the land of the pure” ; for then the impure should be removed!

    The sad thing for India is that all these are unraveling when we have too many political infighting and issues going on; quite possibly without anybody at the ruddder.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The Pakistani “terror response” to Adm Muellen’s threat has already started.. 6 Pakistani Brits have been arrested today in Birmingham, UK for planning an attack in UK . All these were trained in Pak by ISI operatives,

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Both these stories appear in the International Herald Tribune today. Both are correct.

    But you have linked them together, where no such connection exists.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Once again you are pandering to your inherent islamophobic prejudices rather than conducting any rational analysis.

    Not surprising.

    The three entities are bound together through common interest rather than two being agencies of the other. As you suggest.

    The Haqqani group is fiercely independent and undertakes tasks from Pakistan for money, but it also has many independent Business interests, which it does not share with the Pakistan State. They are for Guns for Hire.

    The Afghan Taliban started their life as being the executive arm of the CIA, and only changed sides once the Soviets had left Afghanistan.

    However, I can see why they may appear the same to you when you view them through the Hindu/Muslim prism

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    Pakistan “satisfies” all requirements to be classified as a “terrorist state”. Wih the Indian embassy bombings last year using ISI/Haquni in Kabul, and the bombings on US army in Afghanistan (thru Haquani) Pakistan fulfills the UN requirements .. Un resolution 1368 on terrorism states that nations found to be “supporting or harbouring the perpretators, organizers, and sponsors of thease acts will be held equally accountable”– So, Pakistan should be declared by the UN (or by US) as a terrorist nation; assets frozen, bombings to dismantle the terror network conducted.

    Any Indian who is against this when Un/US declare it a terrorist state should be considered a terrorist and kept im jail, because there will be “Muslim friends”, politicians, “liberals”, “secularists” etc here on this side of the border who is against declaring Pakistan officially as a terrorist state.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Shoebk,
    I could not have said it better.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    Which prison would you suggest that I should voluntarily walk into.

    I was wondering if there is any bound to your stupidity.

    Evidently not.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Shan

    This is enough. There I promise to ease on the beer.

    I must say that a pint of Hoegaarden yesterday was a great pleasure.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    UNFINISHED BUSINESS from last post””””””””’

    First of all Ashish, thank you for pointing out that fewer bongs were involved in the communist movement prior to 1948. But then, as Sanjay Mittal and Balwinder pointed out, communism emanating from Bengal took Bengal and the country back by miles.

    Mittal’s comments got hidden-
    ” I guess to not to be a communist at 18 showed you had a hard heart.
    And if you remained a communist after 21 … it showed a lack of a head !!

    I can give you a list of 100 on how the Bengal communists failed us. here is a sample

    — They consistently opposed the liberalisation policies, even when the applauded China for liberalising and getting foreign capital. It was good for China… but never good for India.

    — They danced on the streets of Calcutta when North Korea did a nuclear test. But cried and protested when India conducted the same. Ditto when China did this.

    — They supported China during 1962, dreaming that China is going to overthrow the capitalists.

    — The ransacked the industries of Bengal to make it a failed state in terms of industry

    Now these are 4 points. In case you want 96 more… ask me ! ‘
    UNQUOTE

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Most of the leading communists supported China when it attacked India. The leaders who opposed this were suspended from the party and the politbureau. VS Achuthanadan, the ex CM of Kerala, was suspended from the party and the politbureau because he was on “India’s side”!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jyoti Basu was on China’s side; portraying the whole thing not as a war between two countries; but as a fight between capitalism and communism! (figure it out, he felt 1962 India was Capitalist!). Ajay Ghosh did not take a side (figure it out)..

    EMS Namboodiripad and AK Gopalan, the politbureau leaders from Kerala took a “nationalistic” position and were strongly on the side of India

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Most communist leaders of India, including Jyoti Basu accused India and Nehru of war mongering and starting the war. They ridiculed India’s defense forces too.
    There was a time in late sixties , when in Bengal, you could read the following slogan plastered on many walls ” China’s chairman is our chairman ” with a picture of Mao on the side.
    This is not any different from what Pakistani criminals, who have started all 3-4 wars with India, blame India for “imposing war” on them and leaving them with no choice.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think this is a major issue for many an Indian party and that is why i rate the RSS higher,

    The COmmunists leaders always thought that there was somethimg very pristine and holy about global communist leaders from Moscow to Beijing, For them the communist ideal was higher than the love for the country.

    Let me also state that the cadre by and large wanted to do good for the country. It was proably the extreme poverty which convinced many that communism was a solution.

    But their leaders always identified with the foreign powers being superior. For example China in 1962. The Orders from Stalin in 1942..

    That is why my father got disenchanted in 1962, He flirted with CPI for some time, Realised that it was the B team of the COngress and then became a COngressman.

    This is in someways similar to Islamic leaders getting orders from Wahabbi groups in Saudia.

    But let me state that the intention of communism was to create a just society inluke the Islamic groups which want an Islamic soicety and others be damned.

    Communism failed becasue it wanted to fit people into a theory which did not understand the basic nature of an individual which is also about personal tastes and personal enrichment…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ashish & Dr Mishra

    Now let me add another relevent chapter to the communism debate.

    Let us admit it that some fo the communists were really sensitve souls moved by the poverty and unequality of Indian society in the forties. From their viewpoint they had suddenly read about a philosophy which talked abolut equality fo ALL and saw there a chance where the poorest of the poor, facing caste and income discrimination would get an equal opportunity.

    In the end however they could NOT see how this philosophy was pracctically implemented.

    When the Communists talked about doing away with religion, they ended up making Marx, mao and Stalin as Gods.

    When they talked about equality of opportunity– which was frankly there in many a communist country– they ended up giving equal pay to all, leading to gross inefficiency and no incentive for innovation and growth.

    It became a totaltarian system, which the commuist of India should have seen, but chose not to. In fact their leaders gave them notes on the perfect societies coming up under Mao and Stalin.

    Forgetting that, all those societies had become dictatorships in the Gadaffi mould…

    AshishC Reply:

    Sanjay,
    yes, I agree. As I said in my response to MIshra above, Communism is inherently flawed because it fails to recognise that all humans want to first think about themselves and their family.
    My dad is die-hard CPM (poor chap, he is so confused now- he does not know who to vote for, living in Delhi for the last 35 years!). His elder brother was CPI and we grew up with them arguing, sometimes at the top of their voices, every day at dinner.

    AshishC Reply:

    Rajiiv,
    many shades of communists- see my post to Mishra above.
    Since you grew up in Bengal, are you aware that most number of victims of Naxals (communist A) were CPM cadres (communist B) and Ajoy Bose was actually a member of CPI before he formed Bangla Congress?
    So, examine history dispassionately- especially contemporary history.
    Kissinger pretty much, in his recent book blames the war in 1962 on India. If you do not agree with Nehru (or whosoever is the ruling PM), will that make you unpatriotic?
    This is the Congress version of history- anyone who is not a Congress mainstream- is small or malignant. Don’t swallow it whole.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    made a mistake.. Ajoy Ghosh (not Bose) member CPI, died in early sixties. Ajoy Mukherjee, CM of Bengal and founder of Bangla Congress, was NEVER a member of CPI. Error regretted.

    AshishC Reply:

    Dr Mishra,
    I am still waiting for your apology for your absolutely baseless allegation about Bengali communists’ lack of patriotism in 1942.
    I have responded to Sanjay in the previous post.
    Bringing linguistic, caste or other denominations into a civilized debate makes it less so. I have not ever made an accusation on linguistic lines against Randive et al nor have I been constrained to point out the detailed and documented role of PC Joshi in active collusion of the British in 1942. I can also start juxtaposing your 3 Maharashtrian brahmins of dubious credentials/ contribution at best towards the Indian freedom struggle with the Maharashtrian brahmins I named in the previous post.
    I have not done so, because it is beneath me. I consider Joshi, Randive et al as Indians with good and bad contributions- in organising the labour, giving birth to the trade unions in India, organising (to my knowledge) the first co-operative for Textile workers, leading or orchestrating several mass movements and so on- like the Tebhaga movement for instance. We would be poorer without their contributions. A simple label like communist or collusionist does not do justice to these towering figures of history.
    When you say communism emanated from Bengal, you show your pitiful ignorance. Even in India, the first left front government was in Kerala and for a long time, most active communists were spread all over India- including in Maharashtra, Delhi, Andhra and of course Bengal.
    Not everyone is unmitigated evil- whether it is RSS or the “commies”. During the dark days of the Khalistan the most active civil defence against the Khalistanis were led by the CPI. Hundreds of their members – Sikhs and Hindus alike- were gunned down by the militants because they were against any religion based politcs.
    I deride the economic philosophy of the communists as being unsuited for modern times. I also fundamentally disagree with their vision of society as against very human nature- but, in giving a counterbalance to the naked forces of capitalism (trade unions, co-operatives etc) the ‘commies’ have played a stellar role.
    Communists are not one amorphous whole- there are hundreds of shades- some who do not even call themselves communists- my friend from the previous blog (Bobby) was one such.
    Anyway, such subtleties will escape you. It is best to deal in labels.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    Applause.

    The problem, as you mentioned, is of labels. Label someone as evil – then many only see evil in them, label someone good – then …….

    Bigotry, thy name is …………………….. (fill in the blanks).

    On the saner side, one should see the relationship and great friendship (since 1921) between Pandit Nehru and Dr. Ram Manohar Lohia, in spite of the fact that the latter was the fiercest critic of former’s politics and economic policies, neither of them ever put a label on the other.

    You correctly say, many of the leaders of the communist movement were truly towering and their contribution is nothing to jeer about or to be rejected outright. One may or may not agree with their philosophy.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Ashish , I have already stated above- ‘ First of all Ashish, thank you for pointing out that fewer bongs were involved in the communist movement prior to 1948 ‘. I do not think that a dramatic juxtaposition I made between Marathi brahmins and Bengali communists, while discussing the tragic and heroic story of Veer Savarkar, needed to go under a legal microscope.

    I take this blog lightly, come here once in a while to highlight what is unusual. I take a contrarian stance often. Defending Veer Savarkar takes guts, to point out that it was better to write a letter of apology rather than die of TB in Kaala Pani, was what I intended to do. Get the flavour of what I say, (I daresay that there are many here who savour my writings ) and do not get stuck in minutae.

    And no the subtelities in your detailed approach above in your lovely post have not escaped me, I have written many a similar one before- what has escaped you is your own very intense approach in demanding an apology when you would be better off reading my first sentence above

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Ravi, just noticed that if any muslim takes an honest no-nonsense stance on Islamic terrorism, you get very upset and start calling them names. You did it with Rizwan, you are doing it with Shoeb.
    An inability to see continuity and overlap between ISI, Pak army, LeT, Haqqani etc can only result from not wanting to see the obvious.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    more than fake Ravi’s, it is the inability of most of us here to see him for what he truly is and what he truly represents. Though he camouflages his identity, nevertheless, often his naqaab involuntarily lowers itself to afford glimpses of his jihadi nature. It is we who blithely accept his protestations of being like one of us.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    जगत बहनोई

    At least we know that you are an RSS Communal Thug a bully.

    That is all that matters.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    You have only just noticed.

    I have been noticing for a long time that YOU DO NOT READ.

    That is a fact.

    I suggest that you read what I have written again and you will find that I have identified the very over lap to you want to push.

    I do not give a फ़्लाइंग फुक्क (Yorkshire accent intended) if Sheob is a Muslim or a Buddhist. He is wrong.

    The three groups I identified may have ideological overlaps, are operationally independent and the currency of transactions between them is MONEY. The Haqqani group is not only funded by the middle east rich but indirectly by US contractors who are busy in infrastucture projects under the PROTECTION racket of the Haqqani Brothers.

    This is obvious even to Stevie Wonder, except to Islamophobes such as you who wish to extract last ounce of communal twaddle out of every incident.

    Andaman is welcome to you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    How do you make definitive statements like, “they are operationally independent”… You also made definitive statement like “RSS aided and abetted Godse in murdering Gandhiji”…

    Are you in the know or making the statements that you wish were true?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    With its military boots on ground or aerial assault through drone attacks what significant achievement (success) will US get? If Waziristan is safe heaven for Haqqanis then what was Kunar, Marjah, Herat?? Isn’t that safer heaven for Haqqanis , Taliban and Hizb e Islami as well. US/ISAF forces have badly failed in Afghanistan. These elements are much more safe n sound inside Afghanistan than on this side of Durand Line where they’ll be easy to spot and target.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Usman buddy, welcome back. US forces are bound to fail- 5 years back they were fighting 5% of the population of Pakistan who were very fundamentalist. Today the figure is perhaps 30%.
    I say this on the basis of what I read in the Pak newspapers regularly and what I glean from the Pak patients here in UK. Salman Taseer being murdered for wanting to protect a christian would have been unimaginable in 10 years ago, today when his son is kidnapped nobody in Pakistan even bats an eyelid.

    Last week a christan girl got thrashed for misspelling a word in her class 8 exam and being accused of blasphemy.

    It is very difficult to fight an idea that keeps on multiplying faster than the terrorists being killed onthe ground. Your feedback welcome

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Hello Dr Mishra

    Sir, the slow and gradual process of islamizaton will take another 30+ yrs to go back to normalcy till the time ordinary people are mature enough to discuss matters in rational way and some peace returns to disturbed areas and minds.

    As far as our confrontation with US is concerned it seems we were never acknowledged for our part of share in the war against terrorism and still are blamed for fuelling more violence in Afghanistan. The unnecessary bombings carried out by US in the tribal area of Pakistan has also spurred up the idea to demand US absence from Afghanistan.

    As far as missing Shahbaz Taseer is concerned every effort is being made to trace him and i hope and pray for this recovery.
    Any reference for 8 yr old girl?

    Usman

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    usmam

    will appreciate your comment on the note i put on where pakistan was, what it has to do now etc.. It will add an inside-out to my outside-in

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Gopi i have read your post would definitely add my views in response to yours but it will take some time in compilation.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Usman,

    I don’t think Pakistan has 30 years to live and enjoy future normalcy. The land of the pure has become highly polluted with the elimination of the kafir log and what is now left is all terror and their support base. I would give a maximum of 3-5years for Pakistan to beak up. It is sad that Pakistanis forgot the earlier breaking in 1971 and went about destroying the remaining land of the pure.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mr Shenoy,

    That is what we have been listening to for the past ten years. Our friendly eastern neighbour has been saying this at our inception, who would go at any length to take advantage of geo-political differences between East and West Pakistan and supporting Mukti Bahni for the cause of Bangladesh.
    How is it possible that we have forgotten this?

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mr Shenoy

    I think it would be in the spirit of the blog to understand what Usman is saying. Our view from India’s side is bound to be diamatrically opposite as we bear the brunt of the terror attacks.

    It is possible that the ” reasonable” Pakistani view would be different. In case we need to mould the reasonable Pakistani view to change according to our needs… and lower the level of terror emnating from there, it is necessary to understand it.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks! a big relief. Can I have more of your sort on this blog. Speaking of which where is Mahesh, Vinay and Dr Anand these days?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Expecting anything in the spirit of the blog or of anything else from Shenoy, whose world view is through a cracked Hindutvawadi prism, is well nigh impossible.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Any reference for 8 yr old girl?

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/girl-accused-of-blasphemy-for-a-spelling-error/

  • Anonymous

    Rajiv, Rajeev, Sanjay Mittal,

    Vinod Sharma’s blog this time is typical of the head-in-the-sand response of the congress supporting media. Pretend that nothing is happening or divert people’s attention to something 99%of Indians do not think a damn about.

    I am reminded of a cartoon that appeared in the Indian Express in 1961. When the Chinese had gobbled up most of the Indian land in Aksai Chin and there was a huge clamour for “action”, our (in)famous defence minister, Krishna Menon marches our army into Goa and ” releases” it from Portuguese occupation!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy Saab

    I often wonder . when bombs rip through masjids, or markets or , religous processions and congregations , as we often read about in papers or on TV ,in Pakistan , Waziristan or such areas inhabited by the “pure” and killing hard to enforce the word of their Almighty , does anyone grieve for the dead or those who are left crippled and maimed , or the children who are orphaned.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Two pundits fighting hehe
    Time to stop nonsense. Ashish and mishra doc will not like to hear what I say next, both are ver learned but have EGO.
    Ashish is better with words which are like playing of violin, but Mishraji has an expanse of knowledge and history and the way he links it that is unequalled. When he linked Anna Hazare movement with ancient hindu jain tradition of shravans?? and linked that with Buddha, Chanakya, republics, governance= nearly all were spell bound.
    Dear Ashish, I like u but pl u listen= banging on about apology over minor silly point is making u look POMPOUS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And Ashish, bobby commie was irritating, his was only point of view, others were insects. He was also very jehadi in his outlook, sorry a TOTAL idiot.
    And you are trying to hide evil of bengali communism by trying to hid it behind words like=inherently flawed philosophy= while in reality it has killed and continues to kill barbatously thousands in India. I refer to their cousins maoists.
    For someone who claims to apreciate nuances, your ignoring sledgehammer of violence of bengal communists just because they speak sweet bangla language sadly displays your bias.
    Sorry babu moshai no support for u here on this one. Electorsl violence of cpi and cpm was of the gutter variety

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I and Bobby stood on opposite sides on most debates for close to 2 years and slugged it out- he had his point of view and I had mine.
    I have done the same with Syed and I do the same with Ravi, Manohar and Mahesh.
    I admire only those who can teach me something; I just named a few who I have learnt from while disagreeing with their views. There were others- like SKS_Mumbai, Vinay who I have never disagreed with while enriching myself tremendously.
    If you wish to debate, you need to first read and appreciate that CPI, CPM, CPIML, CPIM(Mao)… SUCI, FB blah blah.. they are all different.. and they have all evolved, in different paces, in different directions. If you do not know CPM and Maoists kill each other in WB – what can one say? In India, all political parties have goons- care to do some research and find out how many sitting MPs from which parties have serious criminal cases against them? The answer will probably shock you. Electoral violence of CPI and CPM?? Ha! You evidently do not know of what TMC does.
    Since you continue to use words like Bengali communism, I fear any further discussion will be fruitless.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I do not abuse anyone’s community and I do not expect abuse in return.
    I am not here to make friends. I call a spade a spade.
    Ignorant blather is what it is- ignorant blather.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    good

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dr Mishra knows as much history as I know about medicine.. ’nuff said

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravibhai, why abuse Shoeb, made no sense.
    Rupert and antaes, welcome to best blog on planet. Everyone read their excellent contribution

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mr Shenoy

    I am reminded of the GUlf War in 1990. Our then PM, Chandrashekhar wanted to talk to someone on world stage. Unfortunately our international standing was low at that time. Finally Chandrashekhar’s secretary managed to connect to the PM of Nepal !

    Our PM then expressed his opinion on the Gul War and it was the main news on Door Darshan for two days…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Power- having it, projecting it, and using it appropriately- is important.
    Will anybody care about US if it didnt have power (granted they have misused it more than once)?
    Is the newfound “respect” for China strictly based on its miraculous economic achievements?
    The US possible actions in N Wazirstan, the US leaving Afghanistan etc is surely going to create a new terror wave to India from Pakistan based terrorists. I bet you, that “we will be surprised” when an attack happens, will be totally unprepared – for the attacks or for the civilian care/organization post attack, and as usual will issue statements on the “resilience of Mumbaikars o Delhiites”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi

    I hope u dont mind if I call u GOpi as Thomas does sound formal !

    I guess you are right. THe world salutes the powerful. And unfortunately we have been unable to project ourselves as powerful…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jiske paas paisa, uske paas laaThi.
    Jiski paas laaThi, uski bhains.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    Jiske paas nuclear bumb…
    Usko bhi salute pad raha hai…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Paisa hai to Nuclear bumb hai

    The whole thing is that ke bhaiyaa sabse baDaa rupaiyaa.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pakistan ke paas Pasa nahi nuclear bumb hai

    Uske saamne Amrika bhi dumb hai…

    Anonymous Reply:

    Paisa thaa (thoDhaa apna, baaki doosro.n kaa), nuclear bumb (laaThi) banaayaa liyaa.

    Baahar se shaayad amrikaa dumb hai, ander se nahi.n hai.

    IMO, all contingency plans are in place.

  • AshishC

    in the spirit of the dialog that is going on, perhaps it is time for Ravi to say, “Touche’”

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    (Usman, I would like you to provide a ground reality based assessment; mine is just my observations)

    One of the indications US projecting is that they are ” winding down” in Afghanistan, but “winding up” in Pakistan. The necessary congressional and public support is harnessed; the American public seems to be squarely behind tough actions on Pakistan – a unity of purpose they did not have when they went into Iraq.

    The ground situation in Pakistan over the years,a s we all know, is muddled; with total confusion from top to bottom, a “free ride downward’..Zardari did not even attend Taseer’s funeral for fear of his life!

    Future historians will decipher whether the present ground situation happened organically as a result of the army rule over time, or whether it is the result of a planned US meddling. If it is the result of the army rule, it has to be post Zia Haq; because army did a decent job of governing prior to him. The situation now is
    1) Civilian leadership (may be an oxymoron) is not much concerned about Kashmir; but it is the centrality of the military, especially the new officer corps recruited from non-traditional land-owning sectors
    2)the use of Islamic fundamentalists for state use/insurgency is well rooted in Pakistani psyche. From an original mainly Deobandi outfits, many have sprung up which are non-deobandis such as LeT, which is Ahle Hadith, with Wahabi orientation. LeT has also moved from its original Kashmir focus to a “world” focus including domestic Pakistan affairs.
    3) Pakistan’s “Hedge and Hope” strategy with the Talibans and other extremists clearly started unraveling after 9/11, with the pressure from US. JeM, LeT etc that were aligned with Pakistan Govt, started going after the govt . Pakistan started compartmentalizing Taliban, as good Taliban (Afghani based) and bad Taliban (Pak-based attacking Pakistani army)
    4) The Lal Masjid mosque incident further radicalized the Pak Taliban, with increased recruitment from the Punjabi Deobandis
    5) Pak did not go after LeT after the Mumbai attack, either because of their fear that the attack will transform LeT into a formidable army they will have to fight for ever, or they will lose the only card they had in Kashmir.
    6)Pakistan did not act against the Swat/South Wazirstan based Talibans until they started to move to Buner, just 60 miles from Islamabad.
    7) Pakistan never ventured into North Wazirstan, giving a free play to Hacquanis. They think Hacquanis provide them strategic depth (?) in Afghanistan vis-a-vis India when US leaves. 8) US “precision attack” on Osama Bin Laden has brought all these in focus. Info seized during the raid has provided a treasure trove of intelligence info to USA . US has connected all the dots between military/ISI/terror networks.

    Can Pakistan come out of this mess in whole? (we are not even talking about Baluchistan!)? The only way they can is:

    - Go after Afghani Taliban including Hacquani; forget about the mirage of “strategic depth”
    - Work with the US in controlling domestic terrorism that is eating Pakistan away (LeT potentially can take over parts of Punjab and Sindh)
    - Managed, thought out shut down (unlike the siege of Lal Masjid) the thousands of Deobandi madrasas that function as feeder institutions to terrorist organizations

    US will do something on its own in N Wazirstan/Haquani territories if Pak does not go after Hacquanis. Or Pak may be waiting like they waited till Pak Taliban showed up in Buner– but it may then be too late!

    Usman, will appreciate your perspective

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    Before i sketch my opinion of present day Pakistan situation and how things would toll from here I would like to draw a pretext of our relationship with american government and their foreign policy which is centric to their interest. This would help in understanding the aggreviating situation in Pakistan both at the hands of home grown militancy and presence of US intelligence activities inside Pakistan.
    For the past thirty years we are equally disturbed because of the crumbling situation in Afghanistan and number of refugees that have taken shelter on our side. For me the best time to construct civilian government rule and rehabilitation of refugees in Afghanistan was after the expulsion of Soviet forces.In a time when Afghanistan needed a constructive hand US backed out from Afghanistan why did they do it? and was it done on purpose i have little to say. Leaving nothing but alone Pakistan to handle the situation. How and what happened is all well known. In the same era we witnessed planned assasination of Gen Zia ul Haq that made first signs of strong presence of CIA inside Pakistan which is now being potrayed that ISI is behind every mischief inside Afghanistan.Besides, US siding with military establishment and leaving behind favour of civilian rule is also dubious. It seems it hardly matters to them who should they allign with unless they have a greater stake at risk.

    From a top level prespective: In 20th century we have always witnessed US being a victim of some ABC-ism and finding ways and means to curb and unite against a common threat which is against its values or interest. During second world war it was Naziism, from fifties till the down fall of Soviet Union it was Communism and now it is radical/islamization giving shape to Terrorism. Analyzing it further we might see that each has evolved from its predecessor and all are against one entity, US. So any reason would seemingly sound valid, legitimate to let their populace know (or make them aware) what to go after. For that they can put on any hat or wear any mask.
    I’m sure they would have ample support to take every action against Pakistan and that too in full confidence of their public. But would they equally let them (or the world know) about their henious (overt) crimes, by attacking and bombing the soverignity of other countries and clear cut violation of any UN resolution. I doubt so.

    This text is ample enough to atleast give you a feeler and further reasoning about the bad/Punjabi/Swati/Sindhi Taliban/ Quetta Shora (Pakistani version) whose presence and strong links with elements inside Afghanistan is what we are aware of. But not everything is like this I have to admit our own mistakes and inept governance and political turmoil in shaping and fueling the militancy.
    That as you mentioned i would leave at the hands of time and for future historians to decipher. As in my opinion it is both who have muddled it.

    ———————-

    Under the present situation:-

    - No, civilian establishment is very much aware of the Kashmir factor when it comes to bilateral talks with India and is not alone at the mercy of army. However, keeping in view the terrorist activities inside India it might not have made its way on top of the list.

    - The crack down against LeT, JuD, JeM in 2004 was worth praising achievement by Pervaiz Musharif who had made assurance with India on controlling the anti-India activities on its soil. The other versions like Lashkar e Jhangvi and Sipha Sihaba are banned and blacklisted organizations who are very much operative in militancy against army and military installations and other minority communities (Shia/Ahmadis) and are in direct contact with Al-Qaida and Pakistani Taliban.

    - The categorization of good/bad version of Taliban is fuzzy. Yes, there was a bit of reluctance on our part to take strong action against the local Taliban insurgency but the reason was not turing a blind eye or deaf ear but to allow peace negotiations with Fazllullah/Mehsood group. Who wanted shariat implementation of law and refused to lay down arms against the law enforcing agencies. This created rift between the center and Taliban groups and swift military actions was called upon. How did they manage to target military installations and with satelite guided gadgetories is a puzzle within itself. It is beleived they have strong relations with the contractors who work for ISAF.

    - The reason it did not go after LeT was casual pursue of law from both sides. The establishment on our side believe less credible evidance was given by India and failing to contact those who interrogated Ajmal Kasab.
    This should not diffuse in vain. On the flip side despite high claim by India on complete evidance support given to Pakistan the sudden drop and change in India’s mood and New Delhi’s closeness with Washington and Aman ki Aasha has raised serious concerns on our side.

    - Haqqani’s feel more safe and sound in Afghanistan then on our side. However why Pakistan is not going in North Waziristan is because of peace pacts with “aman lashkar” who are in direct contact with establishment are making significant way against TTP. Going against them is serious disaster and inviting more trouble. The only way is peaceful negotiations with the elders and groups of tribal belt. No dictation and military engagement is necessary. Not at any cost.

    - The Osama episode is very much diluted with self made theories and US claims. I have visited the area and asked local residents about the incident to which majority was unaware of Osama’s presence but do hint that someone important that was required must have lived in that compound.
    To me what has little made its way on media is claim of Al-Qaida behind any attack on US forces. However, Taliban/Haqqanis/Hizb e Islami are more vocal on attacks and have made it clear that they have no backing and support from Pakistan and can live and fight the foreign occupation for unlimited period of time but Al-Qaida seems quite for some time now. They have made guerilla attacks on military conveys and have taken enough weapon in depots to use it against US.

    - If US has seized any piece of information, any track of calls from Osama’s mobile phone or info about secret military/ISI details shouldn’t they have made any contigencies to stop attacks in Kabul or ISAF headquaters? Still it is as fuzzy as the claim laid on dumping Osama’s body in sea by keeping intact Islamic values. This is as chidish as it can be because sea/water burrial is not acceptable under islamic law.

    - The reason US is pushing the ball in Pakistani court and not on the heads of insurgents is because we believe this way they would gain good public and congressional support to take military action against Pakistan and target will not be N.Waziristan but rather nuclear and military installations of Pakisatn. This is the single most reason to unite and take responsive actions full ahead covertly.

    As for the peace process to initiate it is vital that bilateral talks should be allowed between Afghan government and other groups after the US expulsion from Afghanistan. The Talibans have made clear that no peace talks will take place in the presence of US on its ground. As for Pakistan it should support the peace process. I feel sorry for the loss of Burhanuddin Rabbani who was great friend and middle man for initiating peace between various groups. Any military action would hamper peace in Af-Pak.

    Furthermore a tougher and stronger action is required against militants and maddaras to be registered and made functional under the government made laws. This would atleast help in curbing free flow of extremists who have hijacked the law and made hostage like situation.

    Usman

    p.s: please excuse my late submission and thank you for your patience.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Usman
    Thanks for your insight. Let us hope no major blowbacks happen

    However, I am intrigued by the military’s control of a major part of the economy, budget, etc. Why did not democracy take shape? Is it due to the feudal landlord/army nexus? Do you think army’s control will ever reduce ? Will they ever let a normal civilian govt to run the country like almost all other countries? What do youngsters favour? Are they happy with the way things are (minus US involvement). Is army using US involvement as an excuse, a bogey man?

    I read somewhere that 1500 families control 90% of the land area. Is that true? And if so, does it create the social pressures that mutates into terrorist organizations?

    How infested is the army with the terrorist elements?

    And the most important question — who has the power in the system there now? Is it Kayani? Or some other person? IS that creating a frustration now among the Americans, that they do not know whom to talk to? Whom does the average Pakistani think is the head of the govt?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good to know the view (should I say a calm and patient one at that) from the other side – it does not matter whether one agrees with it or not.

    Only one point – America’s enemies (real or perceived) down the years – Nazism, Communism and now radical Islam. That is but natural – otherwise how would the American military-industrial complex prosper, if not able influence Washington’s foreign policies and adventures,by creating enemies? If and whenever the threat from radical Islam diminishes or is eliminated, then that complex would create another enemy. In the end, sab paise kaa sawal hai.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Greetings Sanjay,

    Thank you for asking the opinion of ordinaries like me and what circumstances surround us at the turn of events.

    It is difficult to answer the question posed by you in single breath. We have come across thirty years of strained relations with US which have now turned bitter especially after the Osama episode.

    It won’t be wrong to say that US threatened us with similar tone back in 2001 during Donald Rumsfeld time (as secretary of defence). So nothing new this time just boiled more anti US sentiments.

    It is indeed heartening to know that US made such casual “failed intelligence” excuses after bombing Iraq and years later it turned out that there were no WMD and Al-Qaida element present in Iraq. What can i say more in this regard who can go at any length to achieve its objective and accuse others for its failed policies. We believe US is willing to take military action for any reason. Pakistan should be more vigilant and exercise every effort to confront the situation on diplomatic front else …. face the music.

    Usman

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope something does change for the good in Pakistan. My gut feeling is that the US cannot show it has walked out of Afghanistan as a loser.

    Is there a civillian leadership in Paksitan which is willing to build up the country independent of dependence on CHina or US?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    Country like Pakistan that has yet to take a start in economic field would rely on some injection of strong economic push. I have my doubts over US after our bitter engagement but can’t say if we are willing to be independent of China. Besides some strategic and economic gains this equally invites trouble knocking at the door and nothing more to say that we’ll be like a tool at the hands of bigger powers.This requires serious thinking and look for more possible and viable options.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ok ! Txx for the reply

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, you have your favourites and I have mine. Sorry I think you are very good but gopi and mishraji are EXCELENT. You are now beginning to sound a bit pompous and arrogant, you scored a minor point, mishra conceded graciously= now move on.
    And sorry puttar, Gopi and Mishraji have a grasp of indian and world history that leaves you gasping. I have said that u debate like lovely violin music, but thats all. I wud struggle to remember any notable historical fsct from u othrr than this communism from bengal= you are bengali and yr dad was staunch cpm member so that is expected.
    Sadly u displayed a side in last 24hrs that was hidden before, pl u hide it from now on

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sorry ashish, on Pakistan , the 3 best experts here are= rajiiv, rajeev and mishraji, definitely not you. I just read mishraji statement above to usman
    “”"it is very difficult to fight an idea that multiplies faster than the njI bumber of terrorists killed on the ground”"”. BRILLIANT,

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Balwinder,
    I don’t write for you.. this is probably the first time I have bothered to respond to you. This is the last.
    I am not stopping you from commenting- I will simply ignore as I do all trolls.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Usman

    I had posed a question earlier, there has been no answer from other bloggers.

    The USA has publicly alleged (perhaps not without reason/evidence) that ISI/Haqqani network targeted US interests in Afghanistan – thus inviting their wrath. Would you know why?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    Looks like Pakistani military has been “deliberately” killing US Army men for a while.
    Please see the NYTimes article that Rajiiv has posted few hrs ago. This deals with a coordinated Pak army attack on a Afghan/US negotiation team in 2007, one in which a US Major and others were killed.
    Things may be worse than what we expect (if these types of things have been happening for a while)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    My question is how does it benefit the ISI (and should one say by extension Pakistan) to attack US installations and personnel or are they plain daft?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    Good question– I believe the generals think that they/Pakistan is critical for US for the supply lines etc, and they can get away with murder (literally). They believe US wont act back because of 180 million Muslims, nukes, China influence, Us exp in Iraq etc will prevent US coming back at them. So, the generals think US will always blink first.
    However, I believe US is at the stage that they will be willing to pulverize Pak. Senators belonging to both parties have started making statements that US should “teach” Pak a lesson. The supply route diversification (to Afghanistan) has already happened with 50% coming thru central Asia. Osama’s killing with Zawahari on the run makes Pak a lesser partner for fight against Al Quida.

    So you can say that the Generals are living in the past – Kashmir, their own sense of how important the real estate is to US when in reality it is no more important, strategic depth (whatever sh—it is) etc…

    The unfortunate thing is the rich generals have money stacked in Swiss banks; they will all leave the moment bombing starts, with the poor Pakistanis bearing the brunt as usual.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,
    Also, Manohar, I think the generals are doing this (attacks, killings etc) 1) to keep the morale up of the Pak soldiers and 2) some section of the public must be liking that, thus preserving their “admired” status in the society (as you know the army was considered in high esteem until the Osama raid.
    But that high esteem will collapse if there is one more raid, say capturing Zawahari or one of the Hacquani boys

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I still do not have the answer to my question.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well, that is what i was trying to explain– I think pakistan/its army believes they can get away with murder (literally). So, they are doing it for domestic consumption –to show their citizens that they are not beholden to US (the pakistni citizens are agaginst US) ; also the junior officers and the fighting force is so much against US, that the generals once a while allows haquani/its own army attack on us army personnel. — all with the assumptiona nd belief that US will not retaliate, because US needs Pakisatn! (“theyneed us”)… But I think Pak is an illusion; whatw as true until few months ago may not be true anymore; with supply lines etc diversified, osama laden killed, al queda in pak almost eliminated..
    The generals do not understand the changed “terrain”…

  • Anonymous

    @Ashish and anyone else
    Be careful about what you say about Bengal communists. I have lived in Bengal for 25 years and seen each of them from CPM-CPI split ( yes they were one party first until one part , CPI , accepted Soviet Union as the mother land ! ) , seen CPI-ML rise in late sixties and am aware of each of the jewels of the comunist family from RSP to FB ( but they also claim loyalty to Netaji ! ) . I have mostly scorn and derision for their politics of sloganeering , which mostly consists of slogans like ‘Down with American imprealism ( american samrajo-bad nipat jaak ) and ‘break Indira Gandhi’s black hand ( Indira Gandhi’r kalo haat , bhengay dao, guriya dao ) etc. Sure all political paries in Bengal ( from Communits to Congress ) have criminal elements as any party in power attracts criminals , because the party in power can afford protection. Since Comminists have been in power for almost 3 decades in Bengal, after the Siddhartha Shankar Ray administration in seventies, which was not good either, they have to bear the majority of the blame.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Rajiv,
    yeah; I lived through those Naxal and SS Ray years in Calcutta- came to Delhi in 1977. Went back for a 2 year stay in early nineties.
    Bengal elections always had very colourful slogans- didn’t they? “Aamar naam tomaar naam, Vietnam vietnam”, “Lal shuto neel shuto, Congress key maaro juto”, “Jora boloder doodh nei, Congress’er vote nei” and the famous Kutty Cartoon -”Garibi Hatao Machine”.. which we saw painted in all walls during the 1977 elections.
    Bengal is in deep sh*t; it has been like this for the last four decades and more- from mid sixties, when a succession of events- the Naxal movement, the influx of refugees from Bangladesh, the poor SS Ray admin was followed by Jyoti Basu’s CPM.
    There is a certain cussedness in the Bengali psyche that I have never understood- which other place would you rename a street where the American Consulate is located as Ho Chi Minh Sarani?
    As for the blame, obviously CPM/ Left front gets the blame and that’s why it lost the elections- my only fear is that the politics of confrontation and nay-saying will not stop under Mamata.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    How brazenly duplicitious and treacherous , Pakistan , can be
    Read from NY Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/world/asia/pakistanis-tied-to-2007-attack-on-americans.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

    A group of American military officers and Afghan officials had just finished a five-hour meeting with their Pakistani hosts in a village schoolhouse settling a border dispute when they were ambushed — by the Pakistanis.

    An Afghan soldier near the border with Pakistan in May 2007, around the time of a border dispute and an attack on Americans.
    An American major was killed and three American officers were wounded, along with their Afghan interpreter, in what fresh accounts from the Afghan and American officers who were there reveal was a complex, calculated assault by a nominal ally. The Pakistanis opened fire on the Americans, who returned fire before escaping in a blood-soaked Black Hawk helicopter.

    The attack, in Teri Mangal on May 14, 2007, was kept quiet by Washington, which for much of a decade has seemed to play down or ignore signals that Pakistan would pursue its own interests, or even sometimes behave as an enemy.

    The reconstruction of the attack, which several officials suggested was revenge for Afghan or Pakistani deaths at American hands, takes on new relevance given the worsening rupture in relations between Washington and Islamabad, which has often been restrained by Pakistan’s strategic importance.

    The details of the ambush indicate that Americans were keenly aware of Pakistan’s sometimes duplicitous role long before Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate last week that Pakistan’s intelligence service was undermining efforts in Afghanistan and had supported insurgents who attacked the American Embassy in Kabul this month.

    ……………….”

    If India thinks, that the current powers ( Army/ISI ) that rule Pakistan are amernable to reason, then India is a bigger fool than USA.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, sorry did not mean to hurt you. When you passed strong value judgement on others, the others took it well.
    When I passed a minor judgement on you in the gentle way, while at the same highlighting your plus points, you call me troll ¡!!!!!!!!!
    You will notice that on subject of communism in Bungal and its evil influence lasting decades, all of us, respected voices all spoke up= mishraji, gopi, mittal, rajiiv,

    All trolls Prof Ashish ??????? If you are second best, not end of world u know

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Viju
    Where are you? Hope u r ok..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish, Sanjay and others too.

    One must realise that Marxism/Communism was never a democratic choice of any society, except perhaps in some Indian states (would welcome any more examples outside of India). It was thrust upon the people by their ideologues, who promised the proletariat “just and ideal” system (the heavens if you like), as compared to the system that was being replaced. When the delusion set in (many reasons – the theory and the system itself were flawed, absolute dictatorial practices, etc.), the system was just thrown out by the very proletariat. In short, communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) and that is why perhaps some of the leaders and the committed cadre welcomed the 1962 incursions by the Chinese, hoping it would overrun the entire country – it would be the only way to usher in communism throughout India.

    In 1969, I had accompanied a journalist friend to meet N G Gore, one of the doyens of the Socialist movement in India, I think he was member of the Praja Socialist Party then. He was realistic enough to admit that communism and socialism would never succeed in India – the principal reason being that these ideologies put temporal matters above spiritual matters, adding that one cannot go around India telling people that there is no God.

    IMO, the communist system in its totality under our Constitution (one of the most remarkable documents ever) is bound to fail.

    That the people of West Bengal kept returning the communist parties to power for thirty odd years is remarkable in itself. Whether people were patient enough to wait for that heaven on earth, I do not know (perhaps you would elaborate on the reasons). Mamta Bannerji could be considered a milder version of the communist leadership she has replaced.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    The first democratically elected communist govrt happened in kerala, soon after the “14 states” were formed. EMS Namboodiripad, Joseph Mundassery etc formed the first communist govt. Nehru Govt dismissed the govt in 1960. Thee ducatio miister, Joseph Mundassery, brought several education reforms, that made the Church scream about minority rights..A coalition with congress, muslim league, and PSP came to power in the elections after that. But Communists/EMS came back in the enxt electionss. The last ministry before the March elections was a Marxist led mibnistry. Marxists is still the largest political party, with Congress a distant second.. Congress cannot form a ministry on its own (for that matter neither Marxists).. Congress has an alliance with Muslim league which makes it win when Marxist coalition does not win.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Any movement, ideology, etc has a shelf life- well, at least most do.
    When we talk about Communism (forget the shades and variants), we are talking
    - the economic philosophy
    - the socio-political philosophy
    And, lest we forget, it is also, about the prevailing social, economic and political context and time, as with any movement.
    Now, with a political movement, an additional dimension comes in- the leadership. If you look at the Bengal political landscape, especially during the CPM era, I would have voted CPM- just to keep the Congress at bay- so utterly uninspiring were the local Congress guys. The CPM used the “Operation Barga” as an instrument of power consolidation in the rural areas. More on this later.
    In normal times, Mamata would not win in Bengal- she is the first politician in Bengal that did not fit the “bhadra-mahila” image.. but, the people in Bengal, fed up of the misrule of the left over the years, needed and got a change. Whether she is a milder version of CPM, only time will tell- IMO, she will continue the downward spiral of WB/PB; even accelerate it.
    Has communism been a total failure? Oh, no. In many areas, in giving rise to trade-unions, in giving a political face to movements for social justice.. it has been extremely successful.
    Cummunism will not succeed in India because
    - India is too diverse.
    - Communism in fundamentally against human nature- this applies everywhere where communism as a system of economic-political governance has failed- whether it is Eastern Europe or Cuba. China is a fascinating case where there is capitalism in economic front and communism in politics.
    God, IMO, has nothing to do with it. You can be a non-believer yet be a capitalist AND a democrat (not synonymous!).
    communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) Why communism alone? All of us are born in a political system (like a religion) and hopefully die in it! Do we really have a choice in being ruled by a different system?
    So, this free choice is all “maya”.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    —————

    “I would have voted CPM- just to keep the Congress at bay- so utterly uninspiring were the local Congress guys”.

    I have yet to pen a few lines about Congress’ decline as discussed in the previous blog. Will do so in a day or two.

    —————–

    “communism can never be the free choice of the people (especially those who have tasted democratic values) Why communism alone? All of us are born in a political system (like a religion) and hopefully die in it! Do we really have a choice in being ruled by a different system”?

    1) Systems are not be judged within one’s lifetime alone, yet ……. see below

    2) Suppose in the general/state elections, the Communists were to win comfortably at the centre and in all the states. In that case, you would have a communist policies ruling us – they could amend the constitution, nationalise anything that moves free, blah, blah, blah. However, there could be a problem, if they did not go back to the people after five years to seek another mandate – they would have a chaotic situation that they would not be able to control at all. You would have the exactly the same scenario in case a Hindu Rashtra (a la RSS) was established. Remember, even Indira Gandhi had to seek a mandate in 1977 – nothing would have changed for quite a long time if she had not done so.

    I keep shouting from the terraces –

    one person , one vote and the freedom to exercise that right –

    is the best and legitimate system so far. We get governments and polices we deserve (cannot blame someone else). Make good choices, get good governments and policies. Make bad choices, …….

    Any better alternative! – I would not be averse to try it out or at least discuss it here.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Democracy and universal adult franchise are non-negotiable. We are not even discussing it.
    I think you are falling into the trap of absolutism- with the RSS and the CPM, both.
    In the highly unlikely eventuality that the CPM won a 2/3rd majority in the parliament, are you sure they will do all that you (and I) abhor?
    Are you sure that CPM (and this is a very contentious issue; something that Rajiv alludes to partially) is even a communist party?
    Same with RSS. I know folks who think RSS has strayed from the “pure” path- fancy!
    The so-called communist parties in our country (bar the Maoists and some factions of CPIML) are really only left of centre. Unlike Congress who discover left-of-centrism only at the time of elections.
    Now, being consistently left of centre is not easy in today’s world- it leads to black and white view of the world. Today’s world has different challenges than when Marxism first became a dogma- very difficult to analyse by using tired cliche’s like imperialism and super-power hegemony and so on.
    So, anything that the US does on the global stage becomes necessarily bad- Israel is opposed in everything it does.. their world-view is a prisoner of decades past paradigm.
    Again, it is a system of thought which is in decline worldwide. But, it has left its imprint in many unconscious ways on the way we think. The idea of social justice, distributing the benefits and fruits of labour, organising for collective bargaining, bringing agricultural workers into being defined as workers in the first place.. lots.
    It has ensured that the capitalists have had to think of a well-fed and productive workforce.
    I have a lot of faith in the diversity of India- it will finally ensure that monolithic and/ or exclusionary systems do not take root. The governance deficit that we see in many parts of this country that has led to the Maoists gaining asecendancy will hopefully be redressed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Democracy and universal adult franchise are non-negotiable. We are not even discussing it”. As for you, I know it is not, the other systems which we are discussing would like to throw this out of the window at the first available opportunity.
    ————-
    “The so-called communist parties in our country (bar the Maoists and some factions of CPIML) are really only left of centre”.

    Do they have a choice or the Indian ethos makes sure that they are not Marxists in the true sense of the word?
    —————
    I was only alluding to the possibility of communists or communalists (not much difference in spelling, eh!) ruling all over. I too feel that it will not happen – our country is too diverse (its primary strength)(*) and also perhaps the voter has learnt a lesson of putting such ideologies do not hold sway. No need to give examples.

    I am also in agreement with rest of your observations.

    * – The Shiv Sena was launched on anti-South Indian rhetoric in Bombay, it worked to certain extent. When they decided to expand the area of influence, they found there were not enough or no South Indians in smaller towns and villages as to present an imagined threat, so they changed the target of their hate – Muslims. Again, they met with same fate – not enough or none in many parts of the State. Finally they settled for ‘only-marathi-manoos’ and that too is not and will not pay enough dividends – because it is all talk and hardly any action on the ground. Some people never learn.

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    a side discussion or maybe not…
    I have always been amazed about the Shiv Sena- have never lived in Mumbai- but used to be a frequent visitor in the nineties.
    How do thugs like them gain even partial respectability? How is it that Bal Thakeray and his family do not ever get hauled up in court?
    No hurry; whenever you get some time; a considered response will be appreciated.

  • Anonymous

    Om swaha !

    ________CASH FOR VOTE_________

    “After reaching Le Meridien, my cameraperson switched on the spycams on the two MPs. Argal, Kulaste and Hindustani went inside. Kulkarni, my cameraperson and I drove to Café Coffee Day at Janpath and had coffee while we were waiting for the BJP MPs to return. After some time Kulkarni received a call on his phone and we all went and parked ourselves near the exit gate of the hotel,” says Gautam.

    After some time, the MPs and Hindustani emerged from the hotel. “Argal came and told us that nothing had happened at the hotel. There was nobody inside. I was surprised,” Gautam told Tehelka. “I took the recorders from the two MPs and started reviewing the footage. The footage showed random shots of the hotel lobby. It showed them walking inside the hotel, walking around the lobby and waiting at the coffee shop. But, there was no negotiation or Congress leader on the camera or any kind of meeting. I told them the footage had nothing.”

    “Kulkarni got visibly upset at this fiasco,” he continues. “He asked Hindustani what went wrong. Hindustani replied that Patel had waited for them but since they were late reaching the hotel, he left.”

    Gautam told Tehelka he had no way of finding out if there was actually a meeting set up between Patel and the BJP men. “I don’t know if Patel had actually come there at all. I found this guy (Hindustani) very suspicious but since he was our only source for the story I had to carry on,” he says.

    After the failed attempt to get Patel, Kulkarni, Hindustani and the BJP MPs became desperate. Hindustani assured Kulkarni he would make more phone calls and line up some other buyers. “Hindustani said we would have to go to another place for the sting. I told him if we want to record more footage, this particular footage had to be deleted as there was a shortage of space. Since there was nothing in the footage, we decided to delete it.”

    Around 11 pm, the entire group shifted to 4 Feroze Shah Road, which was Argal’s official residence. Until then, the sting operation was being planned and executed from Kulkarni’s official residence at 17 Balwant Rai Mehta Lane. The no-confidence motion was scheduled in a little less than 16 hours. The clock was ticking. It was at this stage that the BJP turned its attention to Amar Singh. Having realised that Ahmed Patel was out of bounds, a desperate and last-ditch effort was now made to entrap Amar Singh, who everyone knew had the reputation of being a powerbroker.

    After the Le Meridien episode, Gautam had suggested to Kulkarni that it would be better if spycams were fixed in a room and all the meetings from hereon were held at a fixed place. Kulkarni had said that since no one would come to his place, it was better to shift the scene of the sting to Argal’s official residence instead.

    On the way to Argal’s residence, Gautam said Hindustani kept trying to line up buyers. After reaching Argal’s place, the CNN-IBN team fixed the two spycams in the drawing room. While the reporter and camerapersons were bugging the room, Hindustani kept pacing outside, making calls to people in his bid to line up someone who could come and offer the BJP MPs money to defect.

    At the other end, Argal too kept trying to find some buyer. He made several phone calls to different people, telling them he and two more MPs were ready to sell themselves for a good price. In all these recorded conversations, Argal can be heard luring people into the trap by announcing that he and two more BJP MPs were ready to sell themselves for a price. Tehelka now has in its possession 10 such telephone conversations that Argal made to unidentified middlemen.

    Argal could be heard telling somebody in one telephone call: “Mere paas do MPs aur hai…tum bula ke jitna daam ho utna aa ja….time nahi hai…wok kya hai doosra aadmi aur jagah bhi bhatak rahe hai na. Jitna hai utna le aao tum log”. (I have two more MPs…You call them and tell them how much…there is no time…see, the second man is roaming around. Bring whatever amount you have).

    The man at the other end replied that it was too late to act as it was already around midnight.

    “Barah baj rahe hai toh aap baat karlo. Main savere nau sade naun baje tak ghar pe rahoonga” (It is midnight, you talk. I will be at home till 9-9.30 tomorrow morning), Argal could be heard replying. He then added, ”Ek Mahavir Bhagora hai aur ek sajjan Faggan Singh Kulaste hai. Yeh Rajasthan ke hai, Udaipur ke aas paas. Adivasi quota ke hai” (One is Mahavir Bhagora and another is Faggan Singh Kulaste. He is from Rajasthan, somewhere near Udaipur. From the tribal quota).

    The man at the other end assures that he would come the next morning. At this point, Argal says again: “.” (Hold talks. Just bring the money. We will just abstain. You just hold the talks and come to us.)

    Shockingly, this particular conversation and nine other telephone conversations, which are now in exclusive possession of Tehelka, reveal that, at least in this instance, it was the BJP MPs—supported by no less than men of the stature of Sudheendra Kulkarni and Arun Jaitley—who were actively soliciting a buyer and not the UPA which was hunting for bribe-takers.

    Sample this: In another conversation with a middleman (it’s not clear whether it’s the same middleman as in previous conversations or another one), Argal could be heard saying this: “Aadmi koi jimmedar hai ki aisi hi hai. (Is there somebody responsible who is going to negotiate?)” The voice at the other end is not clear. Argal replies: “Nahi to fir kya jawab do main (So what should I tell them?).” A few seconds later Argal says: “Aap baat kar lo pahle. Unko main bata do ki kitna.. sansad badnaam to bahut ho rahe hai aapko maloom hi hai.(You first consult with them. What should I tell them (referring to two other BJP MPs) that how much…You know the bad name that MPs are earning)”

    In yet another conversation Argal could he heard saying: “Token to poocho kitna hai. Kya unka man hai? To main bata doo unko. (Just find out what’s the amount of token. What’s on their mind? So I could tell them (the other two MPs).”

    In another conversation Argal is saying, “Koi jimmedaar ho to humko leke chale aur koi jimmedar aadmi se baat kara de. (If there is somebody responsible who could take us to another responsible man so we could negotiate.)”

    Later in another conversation he says, “To hum kaha pe jaaye..koi humko bataye hum kaha pea a jaaye. Koi aadmi bharose ka ho to to hum jaaye (So where should we come? Somebody should tell us where we should come. If there is somebody responsible we will come).”

    In another clip Argal says: “Agar Kapil Sibal jaisa koi jimmedar aadmi ho to hum baat kar sakte hai. Hamare saath koi chota mota aadmi thodi na hai, purva mantra raha hai. (If there is somebody as big as Kapil Sibal we are ready to come. I also have with me a former minister (referring to a BJP MP who was being offered for sale).’

    It is clear from this conversation that Argal was trying to send a message out to different middlemen that he and two more MPs were on sale. Gautam has told Tehelka that this was exactly what was happening—a last ditch effort was made to find buyers.

    Clearly, there was a desperate plan to destabilise the government with proof of horse-trading—to be acquired at any cost. “There were two simultaneous efforts being made to entrap somebody,” says Gautam. “One effort was being made by Argal. Another parallel attempt was being made by Hindustani who was making frantic calls outside in the lawn.”

    ___

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne020411Coverstory.asp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    With so much of “explosive” material capable of damning BJP leaders like Arun Jaitely, why is Tehelka so lacking in credibility for so long, even in congress circles? Why front line editors like Vinod Sharma dread quoting Tehelka, even while defending the indefensible cash-for-vote scam? Why Ram Jethmalani’s claim in the court, quoting Amar Singh that the maoney came from Ahmed Patel is not being contested by any of the media leading lights?
    Why is Rajdeep Saardesai, the ral kingpin of the sting, not coming out with the original CD?

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    MANOHAR

    Nice take on communism in Bengal. You spoke- ‘ That the people of West Bengal kept returning the communist parties to power for thirty odd years is remarkable in itself ‘
    Do you think it was poverty of money AND a poverty of ideas ? I find that both Jehadi Islamism and communism had a few similarities-
    1. Violence or the threat of it
    2. A ‘book’, small enough to be carried about anywhere
    3. Indoctrination, particularly of the oppressed and poor
    4. And the biggest irony- both communism and jehadism are a definite threat to others BUT THE BIGGEST DAMAGE THEY DO IS TO THE SOCIETY PRACTICING IT.
    comments welcome

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    manohar- A CONFESSION

    From the age of 15-18 I was a fan of socialism, big fan. Hated the priveleges of my monied friends esp the ones whose fathers had big businesses and factories.
    Then I started reading avidly, about human nature, family values, the desire to pass on something towards progeny, the total inefficiency and laziness of workers who were on collectives, the empty shelves in Russia and the fact that people were risking death fleeing the Berlin wall.

    And I saw the thuggish CPI ML cadres who were coming to the AIIMS guest rooms annually for their rallies. Seeing them up close was unnerving. I thought I did not want those angry twisted men in charge of my lives.

    While I hate quoting foreign authors, ‘We the living’ by Ayn Rand ( I did not like her other books) made a mark on me. I started changing but those socialist years means I still cringe if anyone says do you support capitalism.

    I like to say- controlled capitalism or capitalism with a human face, and then I flounder. ANYONE PLEASE HELP- is there a term, an economic philosophy that the world is inching to ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “I like to say- controlled capitalism or capitalism with a human face, and then I flounder. ANYONE PLEASE HELP- is there a term, an economic philosophy that the world is inching to”?

    Of course, capitalism is controlled by various acts and laws (in addition to the market forces) of the country in question – it cannot be free for all. Other than one’s rights, it is incumbent upon the entities to be aware and carry out their responsibilities/duties.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    manohar jee capitalism has no human face.it is a predatory force like every third person in america has phychtratic problem.in india suicide has increased many fold.development is increasing poverty.because of inflation.interest economy is suckin g the blood of common man.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    I assume you do not consider Right Wing Religious Fundamentalism, not a threat.

    Well I do.

    I would actually put the threat for Right Wing Hindu Fundamentalism in India at par with the threat posed by Left Wing Fundamentalism.

    You omission is note worthy.

    Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    I was about to post more or less the same observations.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    Do not understand why you bring “right wing hindu fundamentalism” as a current and present threat to India/world.
    Last time I checked, it was Jehadis killing left and right in many countries. Communism also killed (not anmore) millions (jehadism has not freached that level!)

    I do not think Mishra omitted anything. You are contemplating on a mythical what if; he is sayig about the present and now.

    And waht does right wing Hinduism have o do with Wazirstan attack?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    You just check in all the wrong places.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb

    “Do not understand why you bring “right wing hindu fundamentalism” as a current and present threat to India/world”.

    Even I am of the opinion that it is a threat – any form of fundamentalism is one.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi interesting, u say left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism. India became independent in 1948, pl can you do the sums and tell me since you seem to specialise in latter.
    Your answer eagely awaited. Pl be specific, last time you said 5000 dalit women get raped EVERYDAY.
    2. Manohar, this hindu terror that bothers you, is it reactionary by any chance ??that does not reduce its evil, but distinction is imp. Godhra and gujrat butchery comes to mind.
    ravi and manohar pl

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Where did I say that “left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism.”

    Please identify, where I made that statement.

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    ALL organisations with extreme ideological beliefs and a propensity to use violence to further their objectives are by definition terrorists.

    In UK, the IRA and the UVF are both terrorist organisations.

    LeT, Jaish-e-Mohamad, etc are Terrorists. The RSS is not shy of using terrorism as an occasional weapon of choice, same applies to Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, Babbar Khalsa, etc etc.

    The Haqqani group is slightly different. Mr Haqqani Snr was a war lord during the period when US wanted the USSR out. It is larger than a terrorist organisation it is almost a state within a state.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balls is now Trolls

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Manohar, this hindu terror that bothers you, is it reactionary by any chance ??that does not reduce its evil, but distinction is imp. Godhra and gujrat butchery comes to mind.”

    I do not make distinctions by quantifying the crime and then say this OK and that is not OK. Nor would it be based on which side of the divide I am, the fact that I am not either side is lost on many of the trolls, actually they falsely pretend it is otherwise for their nefarious purposes.

    To me, crime is crime – whether one life lost or thousands and someone has to be held responsible – criminally and morally.

    I am very clear, any fundamentalist or exclusivist ideology is danger to the society.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Do you think it was poverty of money AND a poverty of ideas”?

    Ashish has answered that question in another thread in detail.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Mr Mittal

    How did you arrive at the conclusion that my sympathies are with the Haqqani Group.

    I have only ever mentioned the Haqqani Group in this blog.

    Care to quote me, back at me, to support your alligations.

    Or are you just like others, shoot and run.

    I await your reponse.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Manohar and Shoeb

    Manohar, I am sure you were not expecting me to answer the question you posed, but IMHO that the following at least partially answers the question.

    A SHARE IN CONTROLING THE POST-WAR AFGHANISTAN.

    Who will find no seat, when the music stops

    Most analysts point out that what is happening in Afghanistan and its Eastern border is powerful groups jostling for status in post war Afghanistan. Haqqani group of mercenaries are no different in this respect.

    The Major contenders for power and influence are, the US backed Afghan Government, The Pakistan backed Afghan Taliban, The Independant Haqqani Group, Pakistan and India. The ultimate prize is who is able to exercise hegemony in Afghanistan.

    US’s preferred scenario is; to allow India a significant role and Pakistan sees that as the US and India meddling in its backyard and all its activities must be seen in this context. Its fear is that India may encircle it, just as China is encircling India by using Pakistan as its western proxy.

    The Haqqani’s are playing a complex game, but essentially, they want to secure their business interests; smuggling, protection, trucking, etc. The ISI has outsourced some of its interests to the Haqqanis who for a price are willing to their dirty work in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants Afghanistan to become its client state.

    The Afghan Taliban and the Afghan Government may come to a compromised power sharing agreement, just as the US is about to leave.

    In this game of musical chairs, guess who may find no where to sit when the music stops.

    Shoeb

    In response to my post above you posted the following….

    Ravi
    Pakistan “satisfies” all requirements to be classified as a “terrorist state”. Wih the Indian embassy bombings last year using ISI/Haquni in Kabul, and the bombings on US army in Afghanistan (thru Haquani) Pakistan fulfills the UN requirements .. Un resolution 1368 on terrorism states that nations found to be “supporting or harbouring the perpretators, organizers, and sponsors of thease acts will be held equally accountable”– So, Pakistan should be declared by the UN (or by US) as a terrorist nation; assets frozen, bombings to dismantle the terror network conducted.

    Any Indian who is against this when UN/US declare it a terrorist state should be considered a terrorist and kept im jail, because there will be “Muslim friends”, politicians, “liberals”, “secularists” etc here on this side of the border who is against declaring Pakistan officially as a terrorist state.

    This may come as a surprise to you, every one – INCLUDING ME – knows and acknowledge that Pakistan is Terrorist State. No ifs, No buts.

    However, what you say does not connect with my post yet it was posted as your response to it.

    I will be very happy for UN to declare Pakistan as a terrorist state. Libya was declared a terrorist state decades ago, apart from one missile attack nothing practical came out of it.

    Likewise, Iraq was declared as a terrorist state, after it had fought a long war with Iran on instigation of the US.

    I am of the view little more than PR value will come out of declaring Pakistan a terrorist state. The risk is that Pakistan finding itself isolated would become even more hostile towards India and China would exploit that situation.

    BTW US declared RSS and LeT as a terrorist organisation, did that make any difference!!

    Shoeb, I am sorry for my abusive behaviour towards you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Manohar, I am sure you were not expecting me to answer the question you posed, …”

    All are welcome to make positive contributions to the discussions/debates.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Ashish & Dr Mishra

    I understand that JNU runs some excellent courses on History.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mishra used the following lines
    Last week a christan girl got thrashed for misspelling a word in her class 8 exam and being accused of blasphemy.
    WHAT HE DELIBERATELY HID WAS THIS
    The Masihi Foundation has asked two Islamic clerics in Islamabad to give their opinion on the matter, Maulana Mehfooz Ali Khan and Hussain Ahmed Malik.
    Maulana said: “It is the innocent mistake of a child. Many Muslim students in the madrasas incorrectly pronounce the Arabic words, changing their meaning, you can not punish a child for an honest mistake, the girl was only 10 years old
    BLOGGERS JUDGE THE MAN FOR YOURSELF

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    What do you expect from people who form opinions based upon sensational news reporting.

    Accuracy or balanced detail is not what they want, cheap propoganda is what their objective is.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    cingulategyrus- a medical term- is that you SHAN
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/girl-accused-of-blasphemy-for-a-spelling-error/
    I quoted this article which speaks about thrashing of girl, her expulsion, the hounding of her mother. Nothing else.
    You are my medical junior in UK, your behaviour to your senior who has actually protected you over the last year, is bizarre

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Most of my ex-profs have gone back there to teach )-;

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Thank you Shoeb.
    Lets have a vote, WHO THINKS THAT HINDU TERRORISM is as dangerous or has killed as many ppl as LEFT WING TERRORISM, maoists, communists, naxalites.
    pl no waffle, just brief discusion and vote.

    So far score balwinder= shoeb 1
    ravi= 0
    i am keen to learn abt magnitude of hindu terror or to bin in category of 5000 dalit rapes, a politicisation and gross exageration of a terrible social evil

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    You asked for a response.

    I provided one. I guess you did not like it, so now the fake survey.

    See if I give a toss to the outcome.

    Just count how many died during the Partition, no left wing organisation was involved there.

    The Nazi’s were a right wing religious organisation who managed to kill 6 million Jews.

    You have absolutely no idea beyond cheap gimmicks.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-
    Was any right wing organization involved in partition killings?
    And Was Nazis a right wing “religious” organization? Or just right wing organization?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    An emphatic YES to both

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    Well, it is news.
    Nazism had the race superiority issue; they considered Jews inferior, (more than inferior, as a threat to Aryans), but they themselves were not exclusive Roman Catholics or Germanic protestants..in fact they taunted the priests to preach their stuff.
    Are you saying that since they were against jews, they were for some religion? (they were for the race and to protect the race from evils of jewry, communism, trade unionism, and other isms)
    Which right wing religious organization was involved in partition killings? Hindus killed Muslims, Muslims killed Hindus and Sikhs – was any right wing religious organization actively involved in mass killings? Jamait? Rashtriya Swayamsevak? Akali?

    engrich Reply:

    hich right wing religious organization was involved in partition killings

    mostly rss

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder,

    Fake Ravi’s infamous “5000 dalit rapes a day by caste Hindus” is the fantasising of a sick mind of a perverted jihadi.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    It still remains more balanced then your rancid extreme Hindu Fundo Crypto Fascism.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    THIS IS WHAT I SAID

    BALWINDER CAN NOT READ his comprehension is at about the same level as a Bonobo Chimp

    Dr Mishra

    I assume you do not consider Right Wing Religious Fundamentalism, a threat.

    Well I do.

    I would actually put the threat from Right Wing Hindu Fundamentalism in India at par with the threat posed by Left Wing Fundamentalism.

    Your omission is note worthy.

    Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    A bull-sh.it theory, “Historically, all forms of ideological extremism have committed genocides”.

    What was Rajiv Gandhi’s “ideological extremism” which made him commit the only pogrom against the Sikh kaum in the 500 year history of Sikhism?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy-

    You are right Rajiv G did not have any ideological extreme.. However, isnt it a little too much to link him with the riots? Or even call it a “progrom” ?
    (or in other words, be careful, you are becoming a Ravi!)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    But that is what one gets if the view is through – let me repeat – a cracked Hindutvawadi prism.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, if you read the dictionary for meaning, what Rajiv had got ordered against the Sikhs, four thousand of them-men, women and also children,was nothing less than a POGROM in capital (letters). If you feel, you can de-link him from the pogrom or if you feel, you can also equate me with Ravi.

    BUT WHILE OPINIONS ARE FREE, FACTS ARE SACRED.

  • Anonymous

    Arresting people who expose crime ?
    Why are the whistle blowers in the cash-for-vote scam to save Manmohan-Sonia sarkar being arrested ? This is total travesty.

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2490042.ece?homepage=true

    “Sudheendra Kulkarni, former aide of BJP leader L.K. Advani, was on Tuesday arrested and sent to the Tihar Central Jail in judicial custody by a special court in the cash-for-vote case. It rejected his interim bail plea.

    The court also deferred to Wednesday the passing of an order on the former Samajwadi Party general secretary, Amar Singh’s regular bail application and extended his interim bail on medical grounds by a day.

    Mr. Kulkarni appeared in the court for the first time after the charge sheet was filed. He had sought exemption from personal appearance twice, saying he was in the U.S. to help secure his daughter’s admission in a university. The court had given an ultimatum to him to appear before it on Tuesday. Special Judge Sangita Dhingra Sehgal will hear his regular bail application on October 1.

    Mr. Kulkarni said he was a “whistleblower.” He criticised the Delhi Police Crime Branch’s claim that he was the “mastermind” of the operation. “If my purpose was to receive illegal gratification, I would have pocketed the money. The deal was not for the Rs.1 crore that the three BJP MPs displayed on the floor of Parliament but for Rs. 9 crore. I would want to pocket the rest of the money and be quiet about it. I was a whistleblower and my purpose was to expose the horse trading in the Lok Sabha.”

    meanwhile it looks like the crime branch has no interest in finding the actual criminals, the people who provided the money !

    “At this, Mr. Kulkarni’s counsel said: “They have not even investigated the source and the purpose of the money that was passed on.”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ……
    On the way to Argal’s residence, Gautam said Hindustani kept trying to line up buyers. After reaching Argal’s place, the CNN-IBN team fixed the two spycams in the drawing room. While the reporter and camerapersons were bugging the room, Hindustani kept pacing outside, making calls to people in his bid to line up someone who could come and offer the BJP MPs money to defect.

    At the other end, Argal too kept trying to find some buyer. He made several phone calls to different people, telling them he and two more MPs were ready to sell themselves for a good price. In all these recorded conversations, Argal can be heard luring people into the trap by announcing that he and two more BJP MPs were ready to sell themselves for a price. Tehelka now has in its possession 10 such telephone conversations that Argal made to unidentified middlemen.

    Argal could be heard telling somebody in one telephone call: “Mere paas do MPs aur hai…tum bula ke jitna daam ho utna aa ja….time nahi hai…wok kya hai doosra aadmi aur jagah bhi bhatak rahe hai na. Jitna hai utna le aao tum log”. (I have two more MPs…You call them and tell them how much…there is no time…see, the second man is roaming around. Bring whatever amount you have).

    …..
    Clearly, there was a desperate plan to destabilise the government with proof of horse-trading—to be acquired at any cost. “There were two simultaneous efforts being made to entrap somebody,” says Gautam. “One effort was being made by Argal. Another parallel attempt was being made by Hindustani who was making frantic calls outside in the lawn.”

    ___

    Full Story below :

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne020411Coverstory.asp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,

    the Delhi police have not been able to “find” Amar Singh’s driver, who has answers to several questions about the money trail, literally. RAm Jethmalani, Amar Singh’s counsel, has told the court that the money came from Ahmed Patel, but Patel has not even been questioned.Rajdeep Sardesai, who had played the dirtiest trick of all whistle-blowing operations too has not been questioned, nor the original tape confiscated.

    It is quite strange that the judge has not thought it fit to question the police about these patently biased decisions of the Delhi police.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi, others can read, leave it to them. Wait for vote or discussion. You have now brought in nazism and partition deaths to distract, you are digging deeper hole for yourself, tomorrow ppl will get more angry with you.

    Both of us should now be silent and let respected bloggers vote. As you can see shoeb is independent of his religion, ashosh and mishraji are independent of caste and fight over issues, ashish and rajiiv ate bengalis but differ= so u see total independence here. Ppl vote on issues, on ideology, on rationality and logic. Well 98 percent anyway. Hehe

    So pl u keep quiet, and same I, and we count votes tomorrow

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You can’t read, that is evident.

    All you can do is indulge in juvenile mischief.

    You think it gives you gravitas, it doesn’t.

    It confirms what you are a challa sikh.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar_T , will you have the guts to answer a straight question
    HAVE YOU READ , DAS CAPITAL and the works of karl Marx ’s friend and collaborator Angels . I HAVENT. It is not possible , unless you are committed as probably Ashish’s dad.
    Just like if any balwinder sandhu says he has read GIBBON’S Decline and Fall of Roman Empire. It will have me in stitches. In fact it is impossible to finish those books , with our lifestyle. ONLY ASHISH CAN ANSWER WHY COMMUNIST IDEOLOGY HAD A SUCH AHOLD ON MIDDLE CLASS BENGALI PSYCHE, HIS WORDS NEEDS TO BE TAKEN AS GOSPEL TRUTH.

    Having lived in uk for some time , where marx lived , hampstead to be precise , and his friend Angels , a manchester jewish textile merchant, these are my stray thoughts
    Marx was no MUG. He lived at a time where he saw the grisly picture of WORKHOUSES in london , where children worked exactly like CARPET FACTORIES of AGRA and cow belt.
    He saw how the workers were treated like serf. But he did not arrive at his conclusions by some DIVINE VISITATION. hE STUDIED THE REPORT OF THE inspectors and all the DATA mined by them .I read this in The Guardian.
    Also he saw the triumph of science and how it was making religion and monarchy irrelevant.
    Also all his theories are DEEPLY rooted and INSPIRED FROM the works of KANT AND HEGEL , Is it Kant who proposed Thesis ., Antithesis , Synthesis.
    I think there are two aspects of Communism , THE ECONOMIC THEORY AND THE POLITICAL THEORY.
    The Economic theory TRANSFORMED the SERF country RUSSIA into a MODERN COUNTRY AND A SCIENTIFIC/MILITARY SUPERPOWER.

    The states where there wasn’t much allure of communism , THE COW BELT , TAMIL NADU , they are anything but a sophisticated society. These are societies of Ranbir Sena , Bahubali , Thakur et al . As for tamil nadu , in 70’s millions flocked to Bombay , and this is the spur for the rise of the cartoonist Bal Thackarey, and the notorious Vadarajan(Dayavan)
    I LIVE IT TO ASHISH TO ELUCIDATE THE REASONS FOR COMMUNISM’S HOLD ON THE BENGALEE PSYCHE.
    Post Script, Communism was FOR THE INTELLECTUALS OF EUROPE . The Cambrige FIVE who defected to USSR were NOT GANGA KINAREY WALA type , they were extreemely sharp mind like Anthony Burgess. The film director Louis Bunel , French Goddard , and Italian Fellini were all communist so was Pirondelo and Dario Fo

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) Even I haven’t read DAS CAPITAL. No theory is conjured out of thin air. Marx and Engels were no exceptions – they saw what was happening in the societies in which they lived and sought to offer solutions to end the misery of the majority of the population. That does not necessarily make it a perfect theory. My view is that Marxism was remedy worse than the disease.

    2) The Economy Theory

    True, Soviet Union became a super power under communist rule but at a tremendous human cost – shortages of food and essential commodities of everyday use.

    An acquaintance of mine, a vegetarian was sent by his company for a project to Moscow in 70s (60 years after the revolution). He survived on boiled potatoes and bread for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner for three months and this not uncommon. I also recall Soviets posted in India on projects buying up essential commodities in bulk for use back at home. Footwear was one the prized items.

    The question to ask where is Soviet Union today? USA became even bigger superpower and still very much around and it did not adopt Marx as their godfather.

    Even we embarked on modernisation from 1950s onwards. I do not know about others, but would be true too, as a child my chest would swell with pride when we were told or read about the Bhakra Nangal Dam (I had visited the site in 1955 when perhaps less 100 feet of dam wall had been raised – my uncle was one of the engineers working there then), the first fertilizer factory at Sindri, Rail locomotive unit at Varanasi, the Steel plant at Rourkela, etc. For that to happen, we were not deprived of our basic needs (true there certain shortages from time to time – thanks to licence permit raj). Our way may be was slow, but humane and I have been very comfortable with it. After 1992, most hurdles have been removed (that it has thrown up a different set of problems, but that is not the point).

    3) The Political Theory

    When you thrust a system on the people and in the same breadth declare there will be no other – it is doomed to be a failure. Our founding fathers (for that matter it is true for other liberal societies) did not exclude any form of ideology that could be practised in the country and could form governments if the people so desired. They left that decision to the people – that is why we have had and continue to do so governments with many shades of ideology. Over a period of time, we learn as we go along and then with that knowledge, we know which one is the better alternative. Our Constitution and the system that is in place makes it very difficult for any variant ideology to go berserk.

    True, we have had and are having problems with all the self-appointed senas and outfits (practically all of them money making rackets in the guise of a political/social organisation), but a theocratic system is not the solution.

    I do not reject any theory/ideology outright, we could always incorporate the good points (if there are any) to make life less miserable and more joyful.

    4) Post script – a theory/ideology for the intellectuals? Why go far, so many of our own intellectuals and persons you least expect have been ardent supporters of the Naxalism and other forms of extreme ideologies. Example galore.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    would you believe me if I told you that when I first visited the Bay Area in 1988, outside of Indian restaurants, you could not get anything vegetarian? I had a fellow traveller who survived on bagels for breakfast, McDonalds for dinner (where they would condescend to remove, after having put it in, the beef patty, from the Cheese burger?) and Haagen Dazs in the office cafetaria for lunch? Oh, okay sometimes he made a salad- lettuce and broccoli..
    The life has become better for vegetarians only recently- I am a strong non-vegetarian but, I have seen the trouble these guys have gone to.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, I am aware of the fact that the vegetarians faced problems in many countries (perhaps they still do in some parts of the world).

    The point was paucity of choices. What was the use of great dams/power plants/industries and worse putting first man in space – when they deprived the population of very basic needs,unless you were the ruling/privileged class or had connections. Only potatoes! no other basic vegetarian item? why not Green peas for example? No wonder the mighty Soviet Union collapsed.

    We also spent a lot on space research, but not depriving our population – thou shalt only eat potatoes once week, rice twice a weak, ………. When there was real shortage, may be went “begging” and got lot of food under PL480 programme.

    Me, too strictly non-vegetarian, but love many vegetarian items/dishes. I would not go hungry in part of the world – unless there is a famine.

    AshishC Reply:

    Hey Manohar,
    your point was understood and no divergence of views there.
    What we do not often realise that theory and practice are often different. Communists took the concept of “dictatorship of the proletariat” to mean dictatorship of the oligrachs- in Russia, in China in Cuba and in North Korea.
    Again, human nature at play here- we all like to play God and absolute power can corrupt (not just in money terms), absolutely.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan, you must do some real anashan
    and fake rationalist that you are, go for a devi darshan
    then, may be, you will have hte answer to the prashan
    who am I?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The Americans’ view of Pakistan/Haqquani etc:

    Hardly any day has gone by during the last several weeks without a news anchor/pundit/congressman/senator mentioning about the duplicitous role of Pakistan. The testimony by Adm Mullen, the outgoing Joint Chief of Staff, and Leon Paneta, the new Secretary of Defense to the Senate Armed Services Committee was an eye-opener to many. Both Adm Mullen and Secretary Paneta put it in simple language – Pakistani sponsored groups are attacking US military personnel; they (US) have been working with the Pakistani army in the spirit of cooperation; but they (US) will have to take some tough actions against Pakistan, in Pakistani territory if they have to.

    The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have been providing wide coverage about the attacks done by Haqquani network – all the instances where they attacked and killed US military personnel. They also covered the Indian embassy attack in Kabul; and pointed that it was a joint ISI/Haqquani operation. Today’s NY Times provided a grim news about the Pakistani army men themselves killing an US Army Major (Major Larry Baugess) in 2007. Apparently the army higher ups and the defense dept higher ups (and President Bush) knew about it; that the attack was not by a lone disgruntled lower level Pakistani army guy, but by several Pakistani army personnel including senior army officers. This was hush-hushed in the “larger interest”. But it looks like this was not an isolated incident; and these types of activities plus the Haqquani activities finally made the US guys to declare a war of words. I am sure New York Times will unearth more Pakistani killings of US army personnel in the coming weeks. The testimony alluded to the loss of US lives through complicity. Any more revelation will most probably force Americans to come out on streets demanding an invasion!

    Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a senior member of the armed services committee came on TV interviews on Sunday, indicating that US will act if Haqquani brothers/sons are not prevented by Pakistan from further attacks on US army. To a question on whether US will attack Pakistan, he said all options including an attack are on the table.

    The news media is ratcheting this up every day; it was a question posed to the Republican party primary candidates’ debate last Thursday in Orlando.

    The universal opinion of every “opinion maker” who has been interviewed on TV news shows was that all actions including force should be expended if Pakistan does not come around.

    I believe US will attack if Pakistan does not go after dismantling the Haqquanis. The people here are for solving the Pakistani problem once and for all, even with a troubled economy..

    Not only that Obama will not be blamed for an attack, in fact he will be hailed as a hero for solving the tough Pakistani problem (along with killing Osama bin Laden who was hiding for 10 years)..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    USA will fail in any modifying Pak behaviour because its no match to Pak deceit. Here is what I would propose USA do at the minimum.

    1. Recall its ambassador
    2. Issue a severe advisory to its citizens to leave Pakistan and withdraw its employees from US consulates, except bare minimum.
    The above two steps will cause panic among Pakistanis , as they would be expecting the worst, an attack from USA.
    3. Meanwhile USA should indirectly encourage rumours that its planning to bomb militant support structures in Pakistan.

    4. Suspend all ( military, economic ) direct aid to Pakistan.
    5. Block any loans from multilateral organizations liek IMF, WB
    6. Hold out the prospect of diplomatic and economic sanctions against the top army/isi officials.
    7. Reduce issuance of visas to Pakistanis to a trickle.

    Steps 4 and 5, would push Pakistan towards default in 1 year.
    The prospect of default will cause economic panis and dislocation in Paksitan.
    This would lead to collapse of Pakistani rupee and severe inflation.

    While , USA , takes all this steps, it should not speak much and maintain no direct contacts with Pakistanis. It should talk to Pakistanis , through only 3rd party, and rebuff all PAkistani attempts to talk to USA to sort this out.

    Through 3rd parties, USA should demand arrest of Haqanni and Mullah Omar.
    USA should play the game of escalting demands and not reqarding Pakistan evenwhen it meets some demands because in essense its dealing with a deceitful, thug entity who understands only stick.

    The above approach, that will cost US nothing, save it billions of dollars, has a much more likelihood of success than anything else.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv

    I think US will enforce some of these – I believe they are waiting for some internal logistics. The drumbeat is clear and loud; all point to pending action in multiple fronts

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In response to US demand to act tough on Haqqani group, pakistan has pleged to China that it will take touch action againsts Uighur militants active in pakistan and Pakistan has also stateted that China-Pak relationship is higher than himalayas, deeper than oceans and sweeter than honey.

    gayi bhains paani mein…I guess US has no option but to eliminate Haqqani brothers Osama way.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    3 Indians selected/honored by US Committee on Science and Technology:

    President Obama honoured 12 scientists/innovators for this year’s awards on Science and Technology. Of the 12, three were Indians – Dr Srinivas Iyengar Varadan, Dr Rakesh Agarwal, and Dr Jayant Baliga — Not bad at 25%!

    Congratulations to these smart scientists/engineers/mathematicians! Let us be proud of their achievements!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The “ keep me at arm’s length “ PM of India is rushing to meet his “keep me in your arms” boss. He has come back from US, after a neither here nor there speech in the UNGA , and is in urgent need of being comforted . The heat of 2G is now coming too close and the comfort and warmth which those arms can provide can never come from anywhere else .Those were the arms which pulled him from nowhere and changed his destiny . Something which he had never dreamt of. Now he sees a sinister plot and a hidden hand … probably foreign … behind all the exposures .The conspiracy is hatched by the Opposition, bureaucracy… even his own office , Judiciary …even the Supreme court of India. Anna Hazare …Baba Ramdev are all part of the conspiracy. But somehow he has to keep himself at arm’s length from all this …. But will he ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen

    I was disappointed when Dr MMS said” there is a campaign under way to destabilize polity”..
    But let us stick with him till election.. Who else from the current cabinet will you want as PM? We just cannot afford an election now – needs some semblance of stability with the way world finance, pakistani terrorism tc are going

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Ah, Gopi!
    We ARE stuck with him. I am expecting anyday a spoof on the Fevicol ad from Faking News.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi , Pranab Mukerjea shall be a better choice .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    great, Praveen Saxenaji; and also very perceptive.

    What comfort can the arms of mataji give him, when she herself is ill (is it real?)?

    Now, with so many “enemies of the state” going around baying for his “istifa”,
    only Gursharan Kaur can give him real comfort, but only after he resigns and retires.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Our PM has caught this habit from our western neighbours; blame US, blame India, blame Israel, blame Martians.. everyone is conspiring against you…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen,

    “” The “ keep me at arm’s length “ PM of India is rushing to meet his “keep me in your arms” boss “”

    Nice one .

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Balwinder, you have asked for a vote- ‘ WHO THINKS THAT HINDU TERRORISM is as dangerous or has killed as many ppl as LEFT WING TERRORISM, maoists, communists, naxalites. ‘
    If you ask Ehsan Jafri’s family you will get a different answer, his was murder most horrific. But barring the Gujrat riots which followed Godhra, and the recent Malegaon etc blasts- this vote is a damp squib- nowhere is saffron terror even a tenth as big as the other, which MMS said was a national emergency in several districts of India

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Gopi, yes, I agree. Was just pulling his leg; with some success, as his response above shows!!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    OK, OK. I will limp for the next few hours. ;-)

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sanjay,

    you said, “I try not to drink in front of my child and always tell him “ki yeh papa ka grape juice hai…”

    These days the school teachers tell their students that drinking fruit juices, particularly apple juice, grape juice etc. is good for the health. There is therefore the risk that your child takes a liking for “papa ka grape juice”. (More so if it is readily accessible).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    Ohh !! I take care that the grape juice is out of reach. And they too have frankly concluded at the age of 7 and 11 that this juice is rotten smelling and makes a person talk crazy… and gets a scolding from Mummy…

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shenoy Sahab;
    Hope, I will be back on the blog in two or three days. had been missing all the fun at the blog. Has Vijay again left for China or Dubai?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi

    When a system does not seem to deliver, one may make some radical (but not tectonic) shift in policy and method of deliverance. That is what she did, it too failed. Hence another shift in 1992, which seems to be the lesser of all the evils, probably the best, as of now.

    India’s basic problem has been the delivery systems – highly inefficient and corrupt, though there is some improvement (in some cases remarkable) on the efficiency front.

    Hawaii chappals were not the only items – all kinds of footwear, textiles, soaps, toothpastes, toothbrushes, you name it.
    Every Sunday in my town in those days was a Diwali for the shop-keepers – the Russians would come in droves and buy items in bulk, after watching the matinee of aHollywood film.
    I doubt we ever envied them, rather pitied them. How lucky they must have felt to be away from their own backyard – a stifling system?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar
    What if Pandit Nehru had adopted some of the proposals of Rajaji and Masani in the late 50s? My sense is that we would have been a $7-9 trillion dollar economy now, with better systems, better service delivery efficiency etc.. I am glad we were forced to do a do over in 1992, and we had a pragmatic , visionary leader Narsimha Rao at that time. God blesses us sometimes. What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? Or Sharad Pawar?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now you are going to keep busy for the rest of the day on this blog. Very interesting questions and points, I will do my best to give my perspective on this as clearly as I can.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi, Manohar, Aashish,

    As usual very interesting discussion . Great read.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Thanks.

    I would like you to contribute to the discussions too, one can always learn more.

    [Reply]

  • Vinod Sharma

    @Manohar_T
    But going after the Haqqani group in Waziristan might requred a much bigger operation lasting several days. Drone attacks can be attempted
    but those often cause coolateral damage the Pakistan government cannot politically afford and might have to retaliate — or atleast make a pretence of it. Complex situaiton — I’d say.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinodji

    Thanks for the reply. I overlooked the fact that it will require a longer time frame to do so and it would be a major problem.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vinodjee but itwill be step forward in balkanization of pakistan.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi, when you lose debate or vote u do not resort to name calling, challa sikh, crypto hindu etc. You knocked on my door 2months ago and sent 15 personal emails asking for my help in declaring u non pakistani. Have I dealt with u fairly after that ?
    But when u say
    1. 5000 dalit women get raped everyday
    2. Saffron terror is as lethal as communist / maoist terror
    then I open for discussion and vote. That is civilised debate. Abusing shoeb or myself is juvenile.
    Do not bring in Nazism or partition deaths to confuse

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, hum sikhon ki ek khaas baat hai, CHAHRDI KALA, vaary difficult to define. Buoyant spirit, optimistic, can do, humour. How I wish I could inject u with some.
    I am emotional today for Bhagat Singh was born today in 1907. There is lot of bullshit spewed on blog here by weak, divisive self haters. We need the spirit of shaheed Bhagat Singh more than ever today.
    Khalistan madness robbed us of our eminence but Manmohan put us back. I hope PRAVEEN ji that even when u criticise his current weakness that you remember him and PVN Rao for giving your children and grandkids lovely economy and jobs
    chahrdi kala

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    “Hum Sikhon ki”, who is hum.

    It is not so long ago you were calling me a Pkas1tan1, you even had your forensic email analyser say that I could have faked a BA email in order to convince you of a gross lie.

    Do I detect a change??? My My..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Baleinder

    What debate.

    You set the terms of debate on an IMGINARY precept, both times, and then ask people to vote.

    You are PATHETIC in C Minor

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I NOTICE YOU DID NOT REPLY TO THIS

    THAT IS BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT.

    Balwinder

    Where did I say that “left wing terrorism has killed as many people as hindu terrorism.”

    Please identify, where I made that statement.
    Edit Reply 14 hours ago in reply to Balwindersandhu 0 Like
    F .

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    You are quite right, I should not resort to name calling.

    All I should do is wait for people to call me, Fake Ravi, Paksh1tan1, Jihadi, ISI agent.

    Etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay,

    Where are you ? I hope everything is alright.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    What the famous Pakistani writer Sadat Hasan Manto warned in mid 50s, long long before the current problems – that the US will ally itself with the most undemocratic elements of Pakistani society, Generals and Islamist Mullahs, to protect its geopolitical interests has happened with disastrous results for Pakistan; with an endgame that can be even more catastrophic, as if they need another catastrophe.

    We blame Pakistanis (of those days and now) for not rising against their leaders (generals?) for “getting on high” with financial aid/weapons.

    If it was reversed, and if US instead put its weapons and money in India at that time, would the Indians have opposed if Nehru accepted these?

    With all the negatives being floated on Nehru these days, aren’t we better off now that he did not take any military and financial aid from USA during our nation’s infancy? Had he accepted that, we would have become a Paksitan, with incompetent generals, mullahs, parivars all in collusion against the common man.

    The leadership made all the difference. A Nehru had the foresight to reject the inducements and choose our own course (flawed it may be).

    Pakistan has been down the hill ever since.

    We waited, waited; and chose an opportune and right time, after the cold war, when economic globalization would create harmonious new alliances of elites of both countries.

    We should be thankful that Pandit Nehru did not want to help the United States assume the burden of defunct British empires in Asia and Africa.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shoeb-

    While Nehru should be congratulated, I do not think the populace and other leaders would have allowed him to accept even if he wanted. We had giants at that time, Rajaji, Prasad, Pant, Maulana Azad etc (Patel had passed away by then), having spent decades in the struggle for independence, would not allow dependence again.

    The populace also would not have allowed; since the independence movement for most part was a people’s movement attracting all regions, all strata, all sex, all ages.

    My sense, not corroborated with any evidence, is that the Pakistani populace of that era did not have the concept of nationhood, independence from a foreign power etc. My sense is that at that time (may be even now) the populace was all “anti-India” and NOT FOR ANYTHING. I think the deep rooted feeling of independence from a foreign country was not there; and in its place, may be there was a sigh of “I do not have to live with ——–” . The lack of sense of belonging, the lack of the deep rooted attachment to a place obtained through fighting for independence etc must have caused the populace not to worry about whether it is generals, or is it the landed gentry etc inviting foreigners to exert their influence.

    John Foster Dulles obviously did not like India’s strategy; he even called it immoral. In turn, Nehru regarded the American as “dull, duller, and Dulles”!

    It is really interesting how things get shaped up if given a natural environment. A 2005 Pew Poll found US in the highest regard among Indians (71%) and nearly the lowest among Pakisatnis (23%)– it must be far lower than 23% now

    It will be great if some Pakstani readers can throw light into the first 20 years – the type of leadership (how many had spent time fighting for independence from British to have an “independence” connection as opposed to an Anti India (or anti-Hindu) orientation ), the driving emotional chord of the populace etc..during the formative years

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi since your emails to u I have not called u pakistani. When u were rude with shoeb yesterday, Mishraji rebuked u, u were flippant.
    Sorry, but these 2 I respect hugely. Shoeb has made excellent comment on Manto and Nehru today.
    I did include in my vote question that moist leftie commy caused as many deaths OR WAS AS DANGEROUS as safron terror. Most here hv emphatically and for months said no. Thou shalt not call them names

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    People who talk about partition riots should know, that Indians or as some criminal thugs like to refer Indians as ‘Hindus’ opposed partition. It was Pakistan Muslim league of Jinnah that fanned communal hatred to attain partition and should be the only party to be blamed for partition riot deaths. And when partition happened, while 15% of Muslims that lived in territory of India today , migrated or were killed in riots while 85% ( repeat 85% ) of Hindus and Sikhs that lived in W Pakistan were murdered or migrated. Thats the reason Hindus and Sikhs that made 22-25% of W Pakistan population are almost extinct there.
    It should be clear even to a lieful, Pakistani peddler ( dalit rapes ? ) where the blame must lie.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi

    You wrote

    “Manohar
    What if Pandit Nehru had adopted some of the proposals of Rajaji and Masani in the late 50s? My sense is that we would have been a $7-9 trillion dollar economy now, with better systems, better service delivery efficiency etc.. I am glad we were forced to do a do over in 1992, and we had a pragmatic , visionary leader Narsimha Rao at that time. God blesses us sometimes. What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? Or Sharad Pawar”?

    This is my perspective.

    1) No policy or initiative is taken in isolation.

    2) The Marxist model as adopted by Soviet Union and Eastern Europe was not yet considered as a failure in the 50s, it was still work-in-progress. Nor was the capitalist model was declared a resounding success. So there was no clear cut historical evidence to pick a winning model of development.

    In such a scenario, what model India should have adopted? The problem was compounded by the fact we did not have enough funds.

    As Shoeb has pointed in an another thread that Pandit Nehru did not fall into the lap of the USA – we could have got a sort of a Marshal Plan (enough funds and many American companies setting plants and factories) with one too many strings attached. We could debate that whether he was right or wrong. In hindsight, we are always wiser and we can sit in judgment and praise or blast him. Shoeb has done the former from the political angle.

    India’s budget in 1951 totalled a mere Rs 193 crores (equivalent to Rs 29000 crores today) for a population of 36-40 crores.

    Why Nehru did not listen to Rajaji, Masani and others, and opted for the public sector model? Perhaps, the majority of the Congress leaders were in agreement with Nehru and not with Rajaji. The question of availability of funds (with the Government and in private hands) was big factor. Not enough. Whatever aid/loans we got then was mostly from the United Kingdom, I suppose, with lesser strings attached.

    To label Nehru a dictator and say he did not listen to others and took every decision by himself is being grossly unfair to him, never mind the fact his stature and respect allowed to have him his way on many matters – sometimes with disastrous results – his almost blind faith in the Chinese leadership.

    A little known forgotten fact about Nehru. On every Monday morning, if both he and the President (first Dr, Rajendra Prasad and then Dr. S Radhakrishnan) were in town, he would go to the Rashtrapati Bhavan without fail to brief and discuss with them the matters of state, otherwise on the first available convenient day after that. Mind you, both the Presidents were no rubber stamp types – they would let Nehru know their displeasure on any matter they disagreed with him on. Whether he took cognizance of their advice or not is another matter altogether. I do not know know, if this practice followed today or not ,if not, when did it stop. These days, if the PM meets the President, it is news.

    Development through public sector investments had its pluses and minuses – perhaps more minuses. Maybe you are right, we could have been 7 to 8 trillion economy today, if he had followed the capitalist matter, but I am not so sure. The question to ask – would the capitalist model have succeeded starting from the 50s? As I said there was no historical precedence to follow, hence no guarantee that it would have been so in a country like India. We will never know.

    Having seen for 40 odd years that the commanding heights of the public sector and licence permit raj was resulting in only 3.5% rate of growth – more famously known as the “Hindu Rate of Growth”, it is to credit of Narismha Rao and Dr. Manmohan Singh that they showed the courage to over turn the basic economic philosophy of the Congress Party and more or less of most other parties. The moot question is if there was someone else, would they have done the same – we can debate that forever. We were broke, we had to airlift lot of our gold reserves to London as guarantee for loans. Many of our self appointed nationalistic and patriotic parties went berserk, labeled it as an anti-national and unpatriotic act. They did not suggest any other way (they did not have any) , which was nationalistic and patriotic. Just noise for the sake of scoring brownie points.

    What if Dev Gowda was the PM at that time? I do not think this needs to be debated – as he was labeled as the Prime Minister of Karnataka,during his tenure.

    Sharad Pawar? I will post my comments later.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    I was using those numbers for GDP as something that would have happened (or not) had Nehru given some consideration to move away from his socialist moorings/state controls.
    Rajaji/Ranga/Masani were not asking for changing the model 100%, but to remove the license rajs, to open up sectors etc so Indian entrepreneurs could contribute to the growth of the country. They were not using any labels, but bringing up the fact that we should not substitute British with new Inspectors– that as you know is what precisely happened (and currently the root of all corruption here).
    Nehru had an unflinching and unchangeable belief in the state model; nobody could move him away from that – I do not know if the majority of the decision making board was for the Nehru model or not; it is quite possible, knowing how we Indians operate, that nobody wanted to oppose Nehru (don’t you think the allegiance to Sonia etc is a continuation of this — that we Indians do not like to confront).

    He was a firm believer in the constitution, committed to democratic principles and Democracy. The only negative from a democracy perspective may be his dismissal of the first EMS Namboodiripad communist ministry in Kerala in 1959. There are two views on this – one, that he did this because the State govt was trampling on minority rights especially as it dealt with educational institutions), and the second, that he just could not believe a state will elect somebody other than congress party. I tend to endorse the first.

    Also, the Rajaji issue had nothing to do with a Marshal Aid type scheme- the later Swatantras were not for foreign investment etc, but more for freeing up the individual to start business, to do business without undue interference etc

    The good thing is that we are now on the right track. Who would have thought that we will be relatively untouched by the European and US problems, and that we will move at a high speed of 7-9% growth?

    As we speak, the pundits are saying Greece will have to default; it is not a question of “if”, but “when” (even after Germany pumps in, the consensus is that it is a question of few months)..followed by Spain….and other dominoes.
    Double dip in US…

    We should be thankful to our stars!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    In 1948, the Government did set up Industrial Finance Corporation of India (IFCI) to give loans for private sector projects.

    One should bear in mind, there were not enough funds and resources – so much had to be spent on resettling the refugees and host of other problems of a new independent country – education, health, etc. I do not think any industrial house then was big enough and in a position to set-up large industrial units – fertilizer factories, steel plants, power plants, unless foreign companies (or via collaborations) were to allowed to come in and set-up large projects, but not without their share of profits, which would have gone out of the country.

    My feeling is that the Licence Permit system was a necessary evil at that point in time, to allocate limited resources and funds for priority sectors. That it became a tool for harassment and corruption is unfortunate. It should have been dismantled sooner that it actually was.

    The recession of the 30s in USA was too recent to be ignored too, when weighing the options.

    I do not share your view that Nehru was so adamant that he would not have heeded the collective wisdom of his colleagues – they were giants themselves. Perhaps they shared his ideas. Not many went with Rajaji and Masani to
    form the Swatantra Party. It would have been great if it (occupying the right of the centre space *) was in existence today with a large number of MPs or running the Government. .

    If one were to calculate the time spent in the parliament during one’s tenure on percentage basis – he would be on top of the list by miles. If he was very rigid, he would not have given importance to the views of the elected representatives.

    * – the space which the BJP is supposed to occupy, but is refusing to do so for reason best known to them.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ———————————————————————————————-
    To understand Pakistan and Jinnah, read this.
    By Time/LIFE Reporter , Margaret-Bourke-White ,who covered the first mass riots of India , before partition, instigated by Jinnah.

    Warning : Tears may roll down your cheek as you read this independent account of the savagery unleashed by Jinnah. There were vultures feeding on the dead bodies
    of the people killed in Calcutta but this was just the 1st chapter of Jinnah’s plans to have India divided or destroyed.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    http://iref.homestead.com/DirectAction.html
    Direct Action in Calcutta

    Excerpted from Margaret Bourke-White’s book, Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In 1946 she was in India. The following is her account of the Direct Action Day launched by the Muslim League in Calcutta on August 16 of that year. Tens of thousands died from communal riots that started in Calcutta and then spread to other places all over India. This was a prelude to the carnage of partition that followed a year later.

    Why had the fearful Great Migration come to pass? Why were millions of people wrenched from their ancestral homes and driven toward an unknown, often unwanted “Promised Land”? For years Hindus and Muslims had struggled side by side for independence from British rule. With freedom finally on the horizon why should India begin to tear herself in two along religious lines?

    The overt act that split India began in the streets of Calcutta. But the decision was made in Bombay. It was a one-man decision, and the man who made it was cool, calculating, unreligious. This determination to establish a separate Islamic state came not — one might have expected — from some Muslim divine in archaic robes and flowing beard, but from a thoroughly Westernized, English-educated attorney-at-law with a clean-shaven face and razor-sharp mind. Mahomed Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League and the architect of Pakistan, had for many years worked at the side of Nehru and Gandhi for a free, united India, until in the evening of his life he broke with his past to achieve a separate Pakistan.

    Jinnah lived to see himself ruler of the world’s largest Islamic nation before he died in September, 1948, at the age of seventy-two, but I think of him as reaching his pinnacle of power two years before his death, when freedom-with-unity appeared on the verge of becoming a reality and he took the momentous steps that crushed all hopes for a united India.

    Jinnah’s press conference at his Bombay home on fashionable Malabar Hill, in late July, 1946, marked the public turning point. It was so unusual for the Quaid-i-Azam, or “Great Leader,” to call a press conference that both foreign and Indian reporters rushed eagerly to attend it. Nor were they disappointed. On that mid-summer morning, Jinnah intimated — rather boldly — the coming of Direct Action Day. Two and one half weeks later this day touched off a chain of events that led, after twelve explosive months, to a divided India and the violent disruptions of the Great Migration.

    Until then most of us had thought the differences between the Congress Party and the Muslim League would somehow be resolved and that freedom would bring a united nation. Jinnah’s arguments for division were all familiar: that the Muslims in India were outnumbered three to one by Hindus and would be crushed under Hindu domination; that Hindus worshiped the cow while Muslims ate the cow; that religion, customs, culture all made Muslims different from Hindus. Opponents of the two-nation theory maintained that Hindus and Muslims could not be so different, since there was no racial difference. Ninety-five per cent of India’s Muslims were just converted Hindus. Even Mr. Jinnah, they were fond of pointing out, had a Hindu grandfather.

    For my part, I believe that the tragic weakness of the Indian leaders during this crucial period was their failure to take a firm stand against the forces of Indian feudalism. A spellbinder with slogans found it all too easy to galvanize the pent-up suffering of centuries into one powerful current of religious hatred. That this was done by an ambitious lawyer in Western dress and of unorthodox habits makes it all the clearer that religion was used like a document plucked from a briefcase.

    There was a good deal of the successful lawyer about Jinnah that midsummer morning of the press conference, as he stood on the steps of his spacious veranda receiving the reporters. A pencil-thin monochrome in gray and silver, with perfectly tailored suit and tie and socks precisely matching his hair, his manner with us was courteous but formal. As he fitted his monocle to his eye and began to speak, there was something consciously theatrical about Mr. Jinnah — throwback perhaps to that most un-Islamic chapter of his past when he was a Shakespearean actor in England.

    His statement to the press was in the form of a monologue, delivered in an icy voice, which was forecast of fiery events to come. “We are preparing to launch a struggle. We have chalked a plan.” We reporters, although we sat around Jinnah in a closed circle, had almost to stop our breathing to hear his curiously hushed words. He had decided to boycott the Constituent Assembly. He was rejecting in its entirety the British plan for transfer of power to an interim government which would combine both the League and the Congress. He lashed out against the “Hindu-dominated Congress” in his flat, chilled monotone. It seemed clear, now the bondage to the British was drawing to an end, that he was free to concentrate all his fire against the opposite party.

    “We are forced in our own self-protection to abandon constitutional methods.” His thin lips slit into a frigid smile. “The decision we have taken is a very grave one.” If the Muslims were not granted their separate Pakistan they would launch “direct action.” The phrase caught all of us. What form would direct action take, we all wanted to know. “Go to the Congress and ask them their plans,” Mr. Jinnah snapped. “When they take you into their confidence I will take you into mine.”

    There was silence for a moment, broken only by the cooing of pigeons, hopping over Jinnah’s manicured lawn. Then he added in the same toneless voice, so strangely unmatched to his words: “Why do you expect me alone to sit with folded hands? I also am going to make trouble.”

    Next day the Quaid-i-Azam changed out of his double-breasted suit and put on Muslim dress and fez for the Muslim masses. Standing on a platform liberally decorated with enlargements of his portrait, he announced that the sixteenth of August, two and a half weeks hence, would be “Direct Action Day.” His vituperation against the Congress was acidly explicit. “If you want peace, we do not want war,” he declared. “If you want war we accept your offer unhesitatingly. We will either have a divided India or a destroyed India.” And the Muslim Leaguers jumped up on their seats and tossed their fezzes in the air.

    It was a battle between top-flight politicians now. The papers blazed with accusations from both sides — League and Congress equally intolerant in their attacks. The opposing streams of fiery words had a terrible effect on the emotional Indian people. Passions mounted during the crucial fortnight; Direct Action Day dawned in an atmosphere of dread and foreboding.

    Most of what I learned about that day came from a little tea-shop keeper in Calcutta, where the explosion began. As soon as I heard of the incredible events taking place, I had flown from Bombay to Calcutta. The disruption of normal city life was so great that it was some time before I could make my way to the ruined heart of the bazaar district. Hunting for a survivor who had been an eyewitness to the first stroke of direct action, I found Nanda Lal, in the wreckage of his teashop. ……..

    On the morning of August 16th, Nanda Lal started his oven and set out his tray of sweetmeats as usual. When his little son came out with the jars of mango pickle and chutney, he commented to the child that the streets looked reassuringly quiet. The sacred cows that roam freely through the thoroughfares of Calcutta were sleeping as usual in the middle of the car tracks, and rose to their feet reluctantly, as they always did, when the first streetcar of the day clanged down Harrison Road.

    It was the sight of that first tram that confirmed Nanda Lal’s fears that this day was to be unlike all other days. Normally it was so crowded with commuters that they bulged from the platform and clung to the doorsteps and back of the car. Today there was hardly a passenger on board.

    Then things began happening so quickly that Nanda Lal could hardly recall them in sequence. But he did remember quite clearly the seven lorries that came thundering down Harrison Road. Men armed with brickbats and bottles began leaping out of the lorries — Muslim “goondas,” or gangsters, Nanda Lal decided, since they immediately fell to tearing up Hindu shops. Some rushed into the furniture store next to the Happy Home and began tossing mattresses and furniture into the street. Others ran toward the Bengal Cabin, but Nanda Lal was fastening up the blinds by now, shouting to his son to run back into the house, straining to bar the windows and close the door. …….

    During the terrible days that followed, Nanda Lal huddled with his family and relatives in the upper hallway. Sometimes bricks and stones crashed through the windows of the outside rooms. The children cried a great deal; they were hungry as well as terrified. …….

    On the fourth day Nanda Lal noted that the weapons in the street fighting had grown heavier. Soda-water bottles had given way to iron staves, and unfortunately the neighborhood had a plentiful supply of rails from the fence surrounding the near-by Shraddhananda Park. Finally, as the skirmish of the iron pikes reached its fiercest, a convoy of three military tanks rolled through and machine-gunned the mobs, and along with them the police made their belated appearance. ……

    When peace returned to Calcutta on the fifth day, the streets were a rubble of broken bricks and bottles, bloated remains of cows, and charred wrecks of automobiles and victorias rising above the strewn figures of the dead. The human toll had reached six thousand according to official count, and sixteen thousand according to unofficial sources. In this great city, as large as Detroit, vast areas were dark with ruin and black with the wings of vultures that hovered impartially over the Hindu and Muslim dead.

    Thousands began fleeing Calcutta. For days the bridge over the Hooghly River, one of the longest steel spans in the world, was a one-way current of men, women, children, and domestic animals, headed toward the Howrah railroad station. ……

    But fast as the refugees fled, they could not keep ahead of the swiftly spreading tide of disaster. Calcutta was only the beginning of a chain reaction of riot, counter-riot, and reprisal which stormed through India for an entire year.

    The next link in the chain was the Noakhali area in southeastern Bengal. Here in the uncharted recesses of swampy lowlands and hyacinth-choked bayous I talked with Hindus who had abandoned their villages en masse and fled to the riverbanks. They had strange tales to tell of forced conversion to Islam, of being compelled to throw the images of their gods into the water and to eat the meat of the sacred cow. ……

    Gandhi — though he was far too old to endure such hardship — went to Noakhali and tramped on foot through marshes and jungle trying to restore confidence to the villagers. Trade-unions and peasant organizations threw their weight toward unity. It is significant that throughout the worst of the disruption in Bengal, five million Hindu and Muslim sharecroppers campaigned together in the Tebhaga movement for long-overdue land reforms. Wherever there was constructive leadership toward some goal of social betterment, religious strife dwindled to the vanishing point.

    But between these small islands of Hindu-Muslim cooperation were the burning villages, the blazing fanaticisms. The sparks of Bengal flew westward to the state of Bihar, where Hindus wreaked merciless vengeance on the Muslim minority. The flames of Bihar fanned out to the Punjab and touched off explosions that dwarfed even the Calcutta riots.

    Months of violence sharpened the divisions, highlighted Jinnah’s arguments, achieved partition. On August 15,1947, exactly one day less than a year after Nanda Lal had seen direct action break out on his doorstep, a bleeding Pakistan was carved out of the body of a bleeding India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    rajiv

    Thanks– Cannot believe he said “a divided India or a DESTROYED India”..
    Dont you think the division would have happened anyway if not then, may be later?
    Looking back and analyzing, I think the whole partition could have been done with lesser bloodshed with a better planning/more time allocated than this Britisher drawing a line in the sand.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    Jinnah was a cold blooded murderer and criminal. There has been an effort to re-write history on Jinnah. The main stream secular and communist parties, in an effort to not offend Muslims ( who they insultingly presume to have soft corner for Jinnah ) , have sought to not dwell on Jinnah’s brute criminality. The right wing parties like BJP and some of its leaders ( like Jaswant ) , in there zeal to show Nehru, Gandhi as also responsible for partition and sling some mud on congress, have sought to re-interpret Jinnah.
    Jinnah’s cold blooded calculation to perpetrate communal frenzy makes him a perfect candidfate to be dug out from his grave in Karachi and hanged.
    I hope you have read the full account of Jinnah’s pronouncements when he called for day of direct action, as described by Margaret Bourke, the reporter who was present at that place and time.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Are we talking about the same Jinnah that LK Advani praised.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course apologists for the qatl-e-azam jinnah, now depend on Advani/Jaswant for Jinnah’s character certificate. Advani/Jaswant in their zeal to sling mud at Congress and blame it for partition have argued that they contributed to Jinnah to demand Pakistan. However both of them in their books agree that Jinnah instigated communal frenzy to achive his demands and then once Pakistan was achived, like a ’saw chooway kha kay, billi haaj no chaley ” ( after eating 100 mouses, the cat has now set out on pilgrimage ) he now wanted it to be a non-theocrtatic state.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    I have come accross similar articles earlier in my life but some how I had
    always managed to avoid reading those as I had stories of similar
    kinds from the people I know personally. But today sitting in my office
    alone I could not not resist my self from reading. This article has given
    me goose bumps. Would have liked to add more but cannot do at the moment.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi

    Our country was not divided on religious lines, until Jinnah started his monkey business, and the British stroked that argument.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Not sure if you were making a profound point or indulging in idol semantics.

    Before our country was not divided, one may argue neither was our society.

    However, whom so ever may have been responsible, the Country was divided, on religious lines. In so far as Muslim Majority Districts separated from Hindu Majority Districts.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ashish

    You wrote
    “Manohar,
    a side discussion or maybe not…
    I have always been amazed about the Shiv Sena- have never lived in Mumbai- but used to be a frequent visitor in the nineties.
    How do thugs like them gain even partial respectability? How is it that Bal Thakeray and his family do not ever get hauled up in court?
    No hurry; whenever you get some time; a considered response will be appreciated”.

    Shiv Sena, once it was formed sometime in the late sixties, was used by Indira Gandhi to neutralise the communist-controlled trade unions in Bombay, (especially in the textile mills). Once the (mis)deed had been achieved, he turned against the Congress (a la Bhinderanwale) – seeing himself as the uncrowned king of Bombay and a sure way to riches, by intimidation, threats and violence, yet the Congress looked the other way all these years (perhaps for the past services rendered) until Feb 2010 (see below). Of course, whenever he was about to go overboard on issues, a quiet phone call from the Home Minister, that he would be behind bars if went ahead, would do the trick. He was not prepared to stand his ground for the issue he claimed to be fighting for.

    Two incidents.
    1) I was told and there were rumours at that time, that during Sikh miltancy in Punjab, when approached, he had demanded money (amount varies- but was no chicken feed) and was paid to leave the Sikh population in Maharashtra alone by his goons.

    2) During the 1992-03 riots, after the demolition of the Babri Masjid, when citizens went to the Chief Minister (Sudhakar Naik – a disgrace) for protection, he simply told them to approach Bal Thakre, saying he was helpless.

    Many cases were registered against Bal Thakre for the (2) above.

    When the only SS-BJP government was formed in 1995 in Maharashtra (that is when the remote control terminology came into the political discourse), a small time SS worker wrote a letter requesting the Government to drop all charges against him. Gopinath Munde, the then DCM and HM, promptly accepted the plea and the State Government withdrew all the cases against him.

    Partial respectability? It is demanded by threats and intimidation, and not commanded.He has his followers and worshipers.

    When the SS and its breakaway MNS started targeting the North Indians, questions were raised in UP and Bihar to the Congress. After the visit of Rahul Gandhi in February 2010 made famous by that ride in the local train,outwitting the SS, they have been told to behave or else. Then their bravado of opposing ‘My Name Is Khan’ release met with humiliation – the film was released and they could do nothing about it. At that time, Manohar Joshi had infamously had remarked on TV “jab Shiv Sena maafi mangti hai, to Shah Rukh Khan ko pataa honaa chaahiye ki maafi mangni hi paDe gi”. Poor Joshi, he had nowhere to hide after the release of the film.

    In the 2005, the SS-BJP had been fined Rs 20 lac fine each by the High Court, for calling a bandh, after the Ghatkopar blast. When they went in appeal to the Supreme Court – they were told – first pay the fine and then come to us. They had to pay.

    There is also a law in Maharashtra. Any political party or anybody damaging public or private property in course of protest (legitimate or not) has to pay for the damages. They have been fined several times and have been made to pay. The court has never granted any relief.

    That is why you do not see too many (hardly any) acts of vandalism and violence by their goons.

    This is my reading of the situation of what follows (I may be wrong). After Uddhav Thakre became the Executive President, he tried to steer the party from its violent ways, to gain wider acceptance and respectability among the larger sections of the people. After the results of 2009 general and 2010 assembly elections – they reverted back to their old ways, but the fines and clear directive from Delhi have kept them caged. Now they make only noises for sound-bytes on TV.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Much in debt sir!
    Shall download and save.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mr Ravi

    You should join the RSS to purify your soul Can’t you see that Jinnah talked of hatred and division. The RSS talked about Akhand Bharat.

    Mulsim League had no love and place for minorites in its dreamworld. RSS at least has a minorites cell and can be asked to give more reprsentation to minorites.

    Pakistan has only produced a thousand suicde bombers..

    Rss produced none.

    So see the difference for once and stop cribbing ever after…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal.

    Life must be hunky dory being fed on a daily diet of propoganda from Nagpur.

    Do you recieve it via RSS

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ ravi

    No we are actually talking about a different Jinnah who is a waiter in a topless bar in Mingora, Swat valley….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Hehe, dont ever leave the blog. We need these brilliant one liners

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Did you tip him when you were there, Mr Mittal

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dont know why the comment sailed up here… it was meant to be a reaction to Ravi, who was reacting to Rajiiv’s posting…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Because it was full of hot air

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar-
    Lets come back to the current times from Nehru’s days, and to the subject of this blog.

    I believe there are cataclysmic forces pulling Pakistan apart; and US will impinge hard-felt pain sooner than later. The rhetoric is ratcheted up; Pakistan is talking about sacrifices, US congress members are talking about teaching a lesson etc etc. Fortunately (for them) this threat is uniting all the diverse elements for the time being. The real issue for us is how will a US attack/or a crazy action by Pakistanis in anticipation of an attack, impact our growth; now since we have a good platform and the PM has assured that our growth this year will be attractive in the 8% range.

    Will refugees flock through the western border? Can we block? Or build a temporary holding place? Will terrorists seep through under the pretext of refugees?

    Will the lunatics use dirty bomb at us (assuming the terrorists already possess dirty bombs)? Or, worse, will the official Pakistan (a mad general or generals) trigger a bomb attack against India? (India being a friend of US now). Will it end up as a Pak/China – India/US game?

    With attention diluted on to various transactional issues such as G2, do you think our ministers are spending any time on the what ifs now since the possibility of a US action is very high? Come to think of it, will they be discussing and proactively planning for any contingencies even if they (the current UPA or any future ministry in its place) are not distracted by G2s

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    All that USA needs to do is to stop financing Pakistan through direct aid, rescheduling of loans, loan write-offs , IMF, WB.
    The rest will automatically follow. Either Pakistan will wake-up and reform or it will sink further into a weakened, failed state, that will find it difficult to hold together. A weakened and possibly broken up Pakistan is good for world peace. A strong Pakistan, given the criminal and deceitful nature of Pak state, will always promote every vice and violence. Thats just the character of the state based on Jinah’s vile and criminality. An independent Baluchistan will be a good starting point.
    However I think , USA has not yet grasped the incorrigibly vile, criminal and fraudulent nature of the Pak state and will continue to engage it and continue to be defrauded. When a new administraion comes to power likely in 2014, the cycle of fraud and deceit will get a new life under another foolish administration.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv
    My fear is that US will attack — the alternatives you suggested will not create an issue on our border. However, a military attack will impact us, either through refugee flow, or thru terrorism aimed at us.

    From what read, it looks like that US has finally understood the duplicitous character of Pakistan. I do not think they will give free lunch anymore.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Gopi,
    I have learnt not to underestimate Pak deceit and USA foolishness. Pak deceit in its conduct with USA is not anything new. It has been going on for ever. They just do not understand Pakistan and think that the state can be amenable to reason, inspite of all the evidense to the contrary.
    Regarding a 1971 type situation where Pakistan refugees in millions flock to India, I do not foresee that. That would happen only in a Pakistani civil war . I do not foresee that because in Pakistan there is no group that can match the murderous abilities of its army, so civil war not likely unless the military splits. Which will not happen.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Very well put forth.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I am probably going against the majority view that Pakistan would launch a nuclear attack on India (a proxy target), if it is “pushed” beyond a certain point – that is the feeling I get.

    1) After 1945 (Hiroshima- Nagasaki), there has been no repeat. If the world was big bomb-trigger happy, we probably would have had a few more cases. The disasters at the nuclear power plants have made the world to be extra careful.

    Mad generals in Pakistan or anywhere else perhaps know if they throw a bomb, they would receive one or more in return. In case of Pakistan and North Korea – I believe their “masters” (US and China) must have made sure that the trigger is not pulled, never mind the rhetoric and “threats”. For example, in case of North Korea, a retaliatory attack would not only affect North Korea, but China, South Korea and the Easter Russia (and surely they do not want have a catastrophe on their own hands – radiation does not respect borders). Similar, the effects of nuclear war on the sub-continent would be felt beyond the region. We do not know as to who has the authority in Pakistan to unlock the trigger. Is it the President, the Prime Minister or the Army Chief? Perhaps the USA has made sure that the chain of command is in place and it cannot be a decision of one man who can go berserk.

    Dirty bombs(!) in the hands of terrorists. An atomic bomb does not come cheap and which could be bought off the shelf – would they have the enormous funds at their command to acquire even one? If they have one, where is it stored with all the precautions in place – just cannot be keep in a backyard pit. What about the security around to protect it from other nefarious gangs? Then there is a question of experts to assemble it for delivery and the most important the delivery system. Catapult anyone!

    2) People trickling across the border

    If the USA decides to settle matters it would target a specific area and not the whole country, so where is the question of refugees trickling across. Plus of most our western border is fenced and patrolled.

    If there is danger of Pakistan breaking up on account of its own problems and contradictions, there could be a problem (see below).

    3) I am sure we (and all the countries) have contingency plans in place, based on simulated war games, doomsday scenarios, etc. For obvious reasons, they cannot be made public.

    If a situation arises, I am confident we will all forget about 2G,etc. and the cat-fights and will face it unitedly.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Jean Genie Jinnah

    All

    Attempt has been made to reheat the soufflé called Mohd Ali Jinnah, and as is always the case the re-heated dish is less than palatable.

    I am not well versed with the character of Mohd Ali Jinnah, but I can recognise when an attempt is being made to assassinate it.

    Needless for me to re-iterate, that I am no fan of any of the BJP dignitaries, but even I acknowledge that neither LK Advani nor Jaswant Singh are any one’s fools. Both are seasoned politicians, educated and wise enough to know which side of their bread is buttered.

    Despite that, a few years ago both spoke and wrote effectively to rehabilitate Jinnah’s reputation in India.

    This raises some questions:

    1. Why TWO very senior BJP leaders felt that there was an overwhelming need to say image-reforming things about Jinnah.

    2. Was there an attempt being made to ingratiate the BJP with the Indian Muslim Community, with a view to denting Congress’s vote-bank.

    3. Was one witnessing two seasoned politicians overcome with pangs of consciousness and the consequential itch could only be scratched by writing reversionary books, which have put some considerable gap between with words villain and Jinnah.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Ravi,
    May I make a couple of quick points?
    1. Jaswant had a book to sell; like Shoaib Akhtar now. So, he made a few points in the book that became, what India TV calls “sansani”.
    2. Advani was a guest in a country which reveres Jinnah as the father of nation; like we do Mahatma Gandhi. Let us think of Nawaz Sharif visiting Rajghat; let’s say he wrote something like “Mahatma Gandhi was an inspiration to everyone in the world”- would it matter?
    Bonus point:
    Jinnah may have been “secular” or “Irreligious” in this personal
    life. But, he bears full responiliby for the 1946 bloodshed- criminar; not jist moral.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    In general I would agree with you, BUT with some reservations.

    1. Within the broad Hindu Right Church, if there is one thing that is taboo, then praising Jinnah would be it. If one believes that, it is difficult to accept that for a paltry gain of Book Sales, Jaswant Singh would praise Jinnah.

    2. I only partially accept your explanation about Advani’s misadventure. If that was true, he would have cleared it with his RSS minders and that would have limited their reaction. I believe that Advani is a troubled man. Under his hard right wing exterior beats a bleeding heart transplanted from a JNU type pseudo secular.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ashish bloodbath of 1946 was planned and excuted by hindu zoinist.
    first hindu muslim riot happened in india in 1880 after brhmnst started siding with britishers.
    jinnah had no organization like rss.congress could give 2 seats to candidates of muslim league to avoid partition.
    but they are provocating muskims to ask for division which ultimately they ask and they agreed.
    full responsibilty of partition lies on hindu fascist,not on jinnah.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Fantastic friends, what lovely points put out.
    RAJIIV, JINNAH””””””””’
    Let me confuse you rajiv-
    1. Around 1910-1915, Jinnah was considered an ambassador of hindu muslim unity !!!!!!!!
    2. His marriage to Ruttie in 1918 was explosive then- she was Parsi
    3. He was a a very astute politician. A little known fact was his meeting Tara Singh and others where he asked the sikhs to join Pakistan. They said they had conditions. He signed a blank piece of paper and gave it to them- ‘I accept ALL your demands’. wow
    4. From 1945 he worked very hard trying to convince the rich Sindhi and other hindu business community of Karachi to stay on. He pleaded. Not out of emotion, but he knew the enormous wealth and wealth creating potential they represented .
    5. The role of Allama Iqbal has not been mentioned here. The man who wrote ’saarey jahaan se accha’ became the ideological father of the idea of Pakistan, AND JINNAH WAS ONLY THE MEANS TO ACHIEVE THIS

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    It was Iqbal and not Jinnah who first postulated TNT two nation theory !!

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    RAJIIIV , JINNAH ””””””””””

    1. When Advani and Jaswant Singh, and many others in Pak say Jinnah is secular, it is because of THAT SPEECH in 1947-
    ‘ You are free to go to your temples, mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. ‘

    A great speech in isolation, but by then the monster of Direct action day had been released.
    And actually this speech and Jinnah’s legacy was dead as early as 1949 when the Obejctievs resolution was passed- Pakistan constituion would be based on Islam and the Quran.
    RIP SECULARISM

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    Initially Pakistan which was created for muslims, with this it was stated that it was CREATED FOR ISLAM
    semantics- no- it is the basis of the boiling religious hatred today ….

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    TNT- TWO NATION THEORY”””””””””

    The complete hijacking of the education system in Pakistan was achieved by introducing Pakistan Studies, a mandatory subject for ALL students – it is Islamic brainwashing at an extreme. The TNT is taught as if it is the holy grail- not surprising therefore that Shahrukh Khan keeping both Geeta and Quran in the same room is percieved as harraam.
    witness how this stupid but very charismatic and dangerous demagogue aid Hamid slugs it out with Marvi Sirmed on TNT- he insults her by saying- you are a bindi wearing ‘hindu’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLMgRK0NVNY

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All
    Muhd Ali Jinnah was the greatest MFer who started the double dealing/backstabbing of Pakiiss.

    This is from today’s Wall Street Journal 9/28/11 front page with photo) ..

    Joint chief of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen has long been seen as Pakistan’s closest friend in Washington.

    He visited Islamabad 27 times since 2008 in his role as America’s top uniformed officer, cultivated a bond with the Pakistani army chief of staff and early in his tenure said he believed Pakistan was serious about plans to take on militant groups that the US wanted to shut down.

    But in recent months, Adm Mullen said in an interview with the WSJ, he concluded that the partnership approach he long had championed had fallen short and would be difficult to revive ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..Explaining his switch in the interview, Adm Mullen, like many other US officials, said the Americans are now going to have to take a tougher line in demanding Pakistan rein in militant groups.

    “I am losing people, and I am just not going to stand for that” he said, “I have been Pakistan’s best friend. What does it say when I am at that point? What does it say about where we are?”………..

    “it is very clear they (Pak army) have supported them (Haqquani) ” Adm Mullen said. “I dont think the Haqquanis can be turned on and off like a light switch. But there are steps that could be taken to impact Haqquanis over time” ..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I hope US bombs the sh— of these guys so these double dealings will end

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    SHOEB AND MIRZA””””””
    One of you best posts ever.
    You mentioned Saadat Hassan Manto. I read his brilliantly acerbic tale of a mental asylum bang on the border at the time of partition-Toba Tek Singh. When the ‘lunatics’ are asked to choose between India and Pak they refuse to do so and Toba Tek Singh, in a brilliant last scene puts his legs on either side of the border and refuses to move.

    A must read. Very funny, and incisive. To the inmates, the ‘normal’ people on the outside indulging in bloodshed seem to be the real lunatics.

    Pakistanis like Manto, Faiz Ahmed and Manzur Qadir could think on both sides of the border. Manzur became the Foreign Minister of Pakistan and his honesty and integrity were legendary. As Khushwant Singh used to say, whenever they were in a moral quandary, they used to ask, ‘ How would Qadir saheb have acted here’

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    It is rare to have someone in Pakistan now who can think on both sides of the border. That is their tragedy. Our own Indian awaam has gone trans national, they think across the US and European borders even !

    Except people like Hassan Nissar. We do NOT have a journaloist like him in India today- hamaarey to bik gaye !
    I have watched this video a thousand times- Muslims vs west- clash of civilisation ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4GJuKMrak

    I love it when he says- It is a clash of faith. Civilisation to unki hain, hamaarey paas kya khaak civilisation hai
    BRILLIANT, ABSOLUTELY BLOODY BRILLIANT

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    another story: Khol Do: was so very touching. I must have read not less than 5to eight of his short stories. One of the best writer, on human life.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    I had better stop. Comments, bouquets and brickbats welcome.
    Before I go-
    1. Balwinder praa, you had me in stitches- ‘ thou shalt not abuse ‘ haha. A Shakespearean nihang, now I have seen it all
    2. Gopi said ‘ Our country was not divided on religious lines, until Jinnah started …’
    and I pounced on that.
    Wrong Sir, and may I say it is rare of you to make a mistake, I am itching to reply but I have gallons to say- so for tomorrow
    Good night folks. Rajiiv, Shoeb, MANOhar, Mirza, Gopi, Balwinder and others- many thanks for education and entertainment

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    could not resist, one of my favourite articles- A COLLECTOR’S ITEM- a report in Times magazine from 1946 on Jinnah
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792780-6,00.html

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thank you Mishraji;
    Wonderful article. I believe, when Pakis made a film on Jinnah, they used Christopher Lee. Ha.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mishra,
    Jinnah’s personal faith, secular or non-secular, is immaterial. Neither is his demand for a seperate state for Muslims of the sub-continent , in itself diabolic, irrespective of the merits of that demand.
    Everyone knows that Jinnah was not a practicing Muslim. So assuming he was secular in his personal life ( that did not prevent the duplicitous thug from disowning his own daughter for marrying a parsee, while he himself married one ) , that howver does not absolve him of monumental political crimes.

    However, what reduces Jinnah to one of the greatest criminals and mass-murderers of history is his cynical use of religion to forment communal violence and frenzy, so as to attain Pakistan. Please re-read the account by the Life reporter Margaret on the press-conference where Jinnah declared the day of direct action.

    The years preceding partiition, particularly 1945-47 were used by Jinnah to instigate communal frenzy in a cold blooded manner and as the Times reporter wrote about Jinnah
    “A spellbinder with slogans found it all too easy to galvanize the pent-up suffering of centuries into one powerful current of religious hatred. That this was done by an ambitious lawyer in Western dress and of unorthodox habits makes it all the clearer that religion was used like a document plucked from a briefcase.”

    He was easily the vilest of men. Now that does not preclude that he may have been a different politician in 1930-ties.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv

    Jinnah is in the dustbin of history/civilization – even if he was the greatest thing since sliced bread.. His creation is on the bottom-most of countries (may be
    a notch above the other Islamic no-man’s land Somalia, may be not)…

    It is quite ironic when Pakistanis celebrate him with all these funny Arabic/Urdu titles –like Quad or Lion or some sh— like that

    We should not spend any time on him.. Other than not letting another Muslim divide the country again…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mean while an ex American national security advisor had this to say about Pakistanis ..
    “As former national security adviser Richard Clark to Bill Clinton pointed out on Real Time with Bill Maher a few weeks ago, the Pakistanis don’t even know themselves when they are lying or telling the truth anymore…they are such congenital liars. So we in the United States need to treat them just like you’d treat someone admitted to a mental hospital — patience and a lot of medication.”

    However, My favourite description of Pakistanis comes from Taleban Afghan ambassador to Pakistan who called them worse than two mouthed snakes.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Arsenal won two goals to one . My comments will be on TWO TOPICS.
    Jinnah and the US response to pakistan.
    Regarding Jinnah , al those who have commented with copy and paste are true to their CHARACTER , a pack of football hooligans , particularly the english variety. These hooligans visiting the host country abuse the national song of that country , even try to give COD HISTORY lessons.like telling Belgians “We saved you from Nazis”, forgetting Yanks saved them all.
    Serious academic work have been done on Jinnah . The foremost is AYESHA JALAL (oh yes despite the surname , she is NOT PAKISTANI).
    What some profoundly ignorant bloggers have posted is like the last 15 minutes of a film (The yankee coorespondent ’s report). Some as ususal have resorted to name calling.
    I dont know how many are aware JINNAH WAS A FULLY PAID UP MEMBER OF THE CONGRESS PARTY . So what happened , THIS IS WHERE AYESHA JALAL AND JASWANT SINGH COMES IN.
    It was profoundly hypocritical to dismiss the allegation THAT CONGRESS UNDER GANDHI WAS TOTALLY UNDER THE CONSERVATIVE HINDUS.
    If they could not stand NETAJI SUBHAS BOSE , what chance a muslim fish monger’s son has in that party.THEN HONESTY AND TRUTHFULLNESSS IS NOT A HINDU TRAIT IT IS MOSTLY SEEN AMONGST SCIENCE LOVING ANGLO SAXONS.

    Now US response towards Pakistan.
    I was amazed at the suferficiality of Vinod Sharma ’s reply to a blogger.
    Haqqanis are 14,000 strong , thinly spread , drones can do only so much . USA HAS A BASE INSIDE PAKISTAN from where drones are flown. This was splashed on the first page of THE TIMES of London , some six to nine months ago.
    US can DESTROY pakistan with sea based tomahawk missiles .
    Do remember pakistan has about 60 F16, so it will be F16 against F16.
    Also pakistan will take the war to afganistan.
    THE GREATEST WORRY
    Knowing how islamic mind works , i will not be surprised if pakistan LOBS few nukes acroos the wagah border , or for that matter at VASANT VIHAR.
    This will give a vicarious pleasure of having done something to avenge bangladesh war, AND ALSO MAKING THINGS MESSIER BY DRAGGING CHINA INTO IT , BY ITS INCURSION INTO ARUNACHAL PRADESH
    Have a good night sleep.

    Next is

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan

    I tend to agree with your reading on possible Pakistani reaction – they will throw bombs at India.. Let us hope Indian Govt has considered this possibility

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mishraji and 5rajiiv your history jugalbandi is SUPERB, bhaut vadia. Everyone pl u read above. I learnt a lot.

    And then total garbage by darnley alias Dr shan. LIAR SHAN, says ayesha jalaal is not pakistani. Ha, I have got her book on Jinnah in my house. The intro says ayesha is niece of Sadat Manto, the famous pakistani writer, shoeb and mishradoc spoke about. She left pakistan as an adult !!!!
    DONKEY LIAR Shan

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Manohar_T, this is for the third goal that arsenal should have scored.
    Your lines
    For that to happen, we were not deprived of our basic needs (true there certain shortages from time to time – thanks to licence permit raj). Our way may be was slow, but humane and I have been very comfortable with it.
    I cannot help thinking, Coleridge while writing KUBLA KHAN must have been in the state that you were in while writing those lines.
    WE WERE NOT DEPRIVED, EXCUSE ME , WHO IS WE , ALL THE CHUBBY OVERFED BLOGGERS HERE.
    How about RamKhilaban , Ramnaresh , Jalebiya , how about KALAHANDI, BUSTAR , PURULIA , MURSHIDABAD, DANTEWADA .
    An average reading of Russian History will inform you the transformation of Russia post communism was breathtaking , WITHOUT PARALELL IN HISTORY. All the scarcity is only during the period 1980-2000. Russian agriculture hasalways been a problem . RUSSSIA NEVER DEVOLOPED ANY KIND OF FEUDALSM.With Zamindari , there is share cropping , thus some INCENTIVE, RUSSIA HAD SERFS , neither the landholder nor the tiller had any interest in the land ,
    THE FALL OF COMMUNISM IS THE GREATEST STORY YET UNTOLD. I will pay to listen.
    As for India AND WE WERE NOT DEPRIVED , HERE IS A CUT AND PASTE
    In 1947 the share of Agriculture in total GDP was 50%. Gradually it declined and has now
    come down to about 20%. Still however 60% population depend on agriculture for the
    survival. In 1988-89 i.e. prior to introduction of Financial Sector Reforms, growth rate in
    Agriculture in India was 15.4%, which has come down to 9.4%(2006-07). Due to rapid
    2
    growth of rural population and division of families the farmland has undergone rapid
    fragmentation. Presently 80% of the farmland holding are with the small and marginal
    farmers owning land up to 5 acres. For these category of farmers cost of production by way
    of farm inputs has increased manifold over the years while the productivity of the land
    remained at the same level and sale price of farm produce has not commensurately
    increased. These factors have driven farmers to the debt trap and have caused distress
    leading to suicide. My experience in the field has shown that smaller the landholding higher
    is the cost of production. The distressed economy of small scale crop cultivation is further
    accentuated by lack of knowledge, scientific application of crop management, diversification
    practices, inappropriate system such as non availability of quality input material in time,
    inadequate irrigation facility, non-remunerative prices, dominance of middlemen in
    Agricultural Marketing Structure.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No one has ever suggested that all has been hunky-dory in India.

    All I have suggested that in the Soviet Union, there was far greater human cost to achieve that “greatness” – shortages of basic consumer goods was just one of them. One could not go and live anywhere one liked, is another. If the foundations of the USSR were so great, then why did it collapse within less than 80 years?

    The USA (to cite one example) is still around after 200+ years of democracy and has been a far bigger super-power – if that what matters, being a super power?

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    the ground level execution of government policies is getting from bad to worse.
    Lack of numbers and quality of personnel are probably the single most reason.
    I sometimes wonder if the government should go on an emergency hiring spree for policemen, civil servants etc perhaps after making them go through a crash course tuned for their job.
    Sure, it will increase government expenses – but will serve two much needed purposes.
    1. It will finally give teeth to the delivery and enforcement machinery
    2. It will generate huge “demand” in the marketplace – through the salaries that these newly employed will get and the large education/ orientation programmes the government will need to run to make them employable in the first place.
    I am not a fan of big government- but, with the vast shortfalls even in sanctioned numbers of policemen and others, we have no choice but to address them first.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    I agree. We have very good laws and acts in place, but the implementation has been extremely poor.

    A) Shortage of personnel would be the major reason. Even sanctioned strength in any particular service / institution is not attained for years. For example,

    1) the Allahabad High court has a sanctioned strength of 160 judges, out of which 95 have not been filled for ages (is it in the guise of reducing expenditure or is to slow down the delivery of justice by vested interests – read politicians!).

    2) security establishment faces a shortfall of 1,327 officers. There are 3,393 IPS officers against a sanctioned strength of 4,720.

    Having realised the gravity of the situation, one cannot just fill in the shortage in one stroke – it has to be gradual process due to bottlenecks – the training institutes can take so many extra in a batch, but no more.

    Chidambaram had indicated in 2008, when became the HM, that these would be filled up in next five years or so – by direct recruitment and by competitive selection process from the lower ranks.

    B) IMO, moreover, the number of sanctioned posts have not kept pace with increase in population. do not have the data to back my opinion.

    C) Decentralisation of power to lower levels (Panchayats, Zilla Parishads, etc) to recruit people would one way out of the mess. Recall my post about this re: Development Models – couple of blogs earlier..

    If more government means delivery systems work efficiently, I am all for it.

    AshishC Reply:

    First, a quick response to Gopi,
    I have very little doubt that an Arab Spring kind of uprising in India can only lead to anarchy; there is of course a very slim chance of that happening here- diversity being a reason.
    Now, to Manohar:
    I woke up to the shortage of personnel issue after the Chidambaram speech after 26/11. And, yes, I remember his promise to fill up those posts gradually over the nest 5 years (2 have gone) as also take steps to fill up vacancies at all levels in the police.
    Would it surprise you to find out that he has made no progress? Ok, I have no data; but, someone should simply file an RTI and ask, “Dear HM, you promised x and y; very speciffic promises. Now, just tell us- how many IPS officers 2 years back vs how many today? How many police constables then vs now?”
    An aside to Ravi:
    This is precisely the point I made couple of blogs back- my disappointment with PC and UPA is not because they did not identify the issues- it is because having identified that, they did nothing. Ravi, do you still maintain my argument qualified as “twaddle”?
    Back to Manohar,
    I suspect they will never fill the vacancies- because how else can the government balance its budget? They probably do the same jugglery in the Fin Min every year- planned expenses beginnng of the year on salaries – on 1000 people (say); while knowing fully well that 1000 is the sanctioned strength while only 600 is in employment. So, end of the year, government has 400 people’s salaries to play with and fund its non-plan expenditure.

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    You have age advantage over me. I do not remember what I said, let alone the context within which it was said.

    However, you seem hurt. Allow me to assure you that you are one of the very few people I never ever intend to hurt.

    We may be poles apart, politically speaking, but I hold nothing but respect for you.

    My apologies for the inadvertent hurt I may have caused.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    The wheels of the government move very slowly, the process very procedural and then there are vested interests.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/MHA-s-recruitment-plan-for-IPS-runs-into-trouble/Article1-703477.aspx

    I would not blame PC & the MHA in this matter.

    Anonymous Reply:

    manohar/ashish
    There is a worldwide “movement” happening – disgust/dissatisfaction with the political class, disbelief in govt/institutions etc. The spontaneous reaction to Anna here, the tea party in US, the youngsters marching in Europe (i am not including the movement in autocratic Arab countries) etc.. it is not too far in future when an Indian girl from Kolkotta or Pune or Kochi will ask why I cannot have electricty 24 hrs, why I cannot have beetr roads (you get the jist). I believe a “post democratic” world is emerging. Many, here and abroad, have come to the conclusion that democracy as of now is manipulated by vested parties – business lobbysts in US andd in many otehr countries, unions in UK (although business is taking over), politicians/bureaucrats in India…. May be a glorious future is there–or may be total anarchy

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Do I see an alarmist in you?

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Shan,

    I hope you enjoyed 8-2 at Old Trafford not so long back. And how does it feel being in the bottom half of the table in the EPL?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ishwar , if you like , we can carve out a space in this blog for us . i am a Footie. That game was palyed by arsenal reserves , meaning junior team , apprentice. This is all due to the arrogance of Wenger. He shpuld have bought some players , which he eventually did. we create jems , we are becoming a feeder club . fabregas, Nasri ,toure , Clichy , Adebayor .
    Cant think of any other team selling their CROWN JEWELS.
    Oxalde chamberlain is very good , BUT WE NEED A PLAY MAKER , and just when we need it , Wilshere is out with injuries . Gary Neville said after the game “United supporters should not get too carried away , the proper arsenal team will threat as ever.
    HOW DID YOU ENJOY MAN U , LAST Tuesday , was about to be defeated by Basle. I understand they show more premiership games in India than they show in UK.
    I have STOPPED following the disgraceful , gaddar indian cricket team.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Mishra,
    Enjoyed the link, writing about events in India in the spring of 1946,
    Its very informative and thanks for posting it. I would encourage all readers to read it.
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792780-6,00.html
    I would recommend everyone to read those 6-pages.

    Also the link I had given earlier from Margaret Bourke’s book should be a must read.
    http://iref.homestead.com/DirectAction.html

    @Balwinder,
    The more i read the history of that era, the more it becomes clear to me that Jinnah’s politics took a vicious communal turn because his muslim league did very badly in 1936-37 state assembly elections. Jinnah’s Muslim league had hoped to do well in muslim majority areas. However, Nehru-Gandhi-Netaji-maulana’s congress, who had forged a secular, Hindu-Muslim unity politics, did extremely well in Muslim majority areas. The success of Muslim candidates belonging to Congress above Muslim league’s muslim candidates, drove Jinnah to communal politics.
    Ironically the success of Hindu-Muslim unity ideology of Congress , spawned the most vicious communal politics of Jinnah’s Muslim league, aided and abetted by extrimist elements. It was all about political power and ambitious and egoist Jinnah was determined to teach the Congress of Nehru-Gandhi a lesson, irrespective of the means and the cost.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The current Pakistani response to US charge of duplicity has been summed up well by a Pakistani writing in DailyTimes.

    So the US is mad — really, really mad. And the Pakistani security establishment responds by acting madder and meaner. Really? A writer friend summed up the Pakistani response in an old Pashto anecdote, the sanitised version of which goes as follows: someone found a jackal howling by the roadside at night and asked what was up with the full-throated yelling. The jackal responded, “I am scaring the living daylights out of everyone.” “But why are your legs trembling,” asked that person. “I am scared too,” responded the jackal.

    Its a absurd theatre, drama and a circus all rolled in one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Suno Suno ai duniya walon chahen jitna zor laga lo..sabse aage honge hindustani…

    A truly inspiring tale of Indian hardwork
    http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/sep/280911-Paris-Hilton-Hundred-dollar-note.htm

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balwinder Praha

    I read your comment below. My request to you is do not look at Dr Manmohan Singh through the prism of your being a Sikh. For me it is immaterial whether he is Dr Man Mohan Singh or Dr Manmohan Saxena . The reason why I feel so angry with him is that he got a lot of respect and affection from the country ,and that included me ,but he chose to be loyal to someone else rather than the country. Since he did not come from the traditional Indian political background with vested interests, he could have done wonders for the country. If only he could have got his resignation letter typed and signed and kept in his left pocket , and if he had told his appointing authority…,now I shall do the best for my country and I don’t care whether I continue for 6 months or 6 weeks….. but that was not to be. He sold his soul to stick to that chair.. honestly speaking.. quite sad.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Spurious Detail

    As soon as the British decided that they will quit India, the struggle to define what Post Independence India would look like, started. The main sticking issue was who would govern, and what would be the power structures of the new nation.

    Principally three groups, were to become the stake knife holders in this tussle.
    These were the Muslims, who saw themselves as former rulers, the Hindus who saw an opportunity to once again establish their rule in a country they saw as being theirs, and the British who wanted a modern India, that remained within their sphere of influence. These groups were of neither of equal matching strengths nor were they holding clearly defined and universally agreed demands. This determined the negotiating tactics each employed. The ground realities changed by the hour as the clock towards August 1947 ticked and tocked.

    Jinnah’s role in this scrum has been chronicled here, what has not been detailed here is the role of the Congress, which at the time was representing both the moderate as well as hard-line Hindus.

    In the post independance Nation building phase in India, Jinnah was cast as the outright Villain, and Gnadhi the undisputed hero. Almost the exact opposite was the case in Pakistan. Some bloggers, both in this as well as the previous blog, have tried to change the commonly held perceptions about these two leaders of men, which were fabricated during this phase. This is an inevitable exercise as our nation matures and we no longer need villains to define ourselves. LK Advani and Jaswant Singh realise that. Sadly their masters in Nagpur do’nt.

    The Hindu right feels that much more political mileage can still be gained by continuing their persistent character assassination of both Jinnah and Gandhi.

    No amount of detail of the kind, in 1938 at the 38th annual jamboree of the Congress party, held in Nagpur, he said that to him and the other reacted like that, etc.” is going to camouflage the fact that what is going on is little more than character assassination for paltry political gain.

    The questions I posed as to why did LK Advani and Jaswant Singh utter revisionary niceties about Jinnah, still remain unanswered.

    Deliberately so.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Binoy Hegde,

    you said, “Shan

    I tend to agree with your reading on possible Pakistani reaction – they will throw bombs at India.. Let us hope Indian Govt has considered this possibility”.

    I learn from an utterly reliable source within the “coterie” the following:

    Yes, Indian government has MOST CERTAINLY considered the possibility.
    It considers the threat UNACCEPTABLE AND INDIGESTIBLE.
    It also has decided to respond strongly and with maximum force at its command.

    The response is this: A strongly worded complaint to the UNSC has already been prepared with able inputs from Oily Moily, Khali Kapal Sibal, Digvinash Singh and last BUT ALSO THE LEAST, OUR DEAR AMUL BABY. The Security Council will be asked to call an emergency meeting and will be requested to pass a unanimous resolution (S.M. Krishna has been even asked to note the numberof the resolution for all future references), requesting Pakistan to desist from any further adventurism.

    Contingency plans are already drawn to fly the dynasty members to Italy. A fully loaded 747 jumbo is ready 24/7 at IGI in a dedicated hangar, with a helicopter parked at 10 Janpath to lift the family to IGI.

    A strongly worded “appeal” is also drafted for the Indian cattle class, asking them to bear the loss of their near and dear ones, with a prayer to Allah the merciful to save those still living.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Sardar Bhadhur Sardar Balwinder Singh Ji Sandhu, Hayes Waale.

    What happend to “thou shall not call names”??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yaar, bank mein credit aur debit hota hai. Dr shan has abused eveyone for so long, including YOU, ki hisaab abhi barobar nahin hai.
    Special rules for special people. Also when blog is red hot his rambling is like hugely irritating. I have to tske YOU up on jinnah ,btw, later, nothing escapes this shakespeare from Amritsar

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Take me on what I said, rather than what you imagine I have said.

    I will respectfully respond.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Will US Bomb Pakistan? And what will be the result?

    There is a good chance that the US may be forced to take some action against its favourite errant child, Pakistan, once it has claimed that ISI was behind the US embassy attack and killing of its men in Afghanistan. THough the US economy is more or less drained out, it has to have a face saver. It won’t be a ground attack. But probably more dromes and maybe some bombers.

    Will China side up with Pakistan? I dont think so. China would be happy with this assault as this would throw Pakistan totally in its arms. This would be an occassion to sell more weapons ot Paksitan, as well as buy land and regions in Occupied kashmir, part of which has already been given to it by Pakistan.

    And India. I dont think Paksitan will launch a full scale attack on India in an attempt to unify the nation. It is already short of fuel and foreign exchange and wont open another front. However it would surely do another kargil. Musharraf too had claimed that Kargil was an attempt to focus the world’s attention to onto Kashmir. This attention gathering syndrome would again be used as a ploy.

    So it is exciting times ahead…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    sanjay

    US will do something — may be more tha drone..or expanded drone..
    Pak will react by doing something to India – eitehr a green signal to its LeTs to do a terrorist attack, or a “dirty bomb” attack ..
    I do not think they will do a direct military atatck; they will defimitely use their proxies..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    The anti India rhetoric of Pakistan is channelised through proxy jehadi groups.

    An Indian army colonal who fights in the Kashmir region once told me that you have to treat those guys as the Army– they are recruited by the army, trained by them and paid by them.

    Pakistan is capable of great perfidy. However this time there are chances that the US may be tempted to go ahead and create a mini state of Baluchistan and SInd to achieve a balacne of terror so that teir energy is diverted to fighting inner battles.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I agree.

    However, if US had to go to the security Council, for approval, which it may feel compelled to do on account of the fact that Pakistan is a Nuclear power. Then China will veto it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, China may veto the action. While India will abstain. Or maybe CHina will aslo abstain. You see China gains if Paksitan goes down the drain.

    it has the biggest customer for weapons and consumer goods.

    In exchange it will get a a port in Gwadar and a freeway from Beijing to Gwadar and an entry to Mideast markets.

    Of course, secretly the Pakistan establishment wont be too unhappy for selling themselves. For them converting 1.2 billion CHinese into jehadis would be a long wet dream…

    Anonymous Reply:

    China will veto any UN resolution that is against pakistani interest. China is developing pakistan as its outpost in greater middle-east.
    However behind the scene it will give a wink-wink-nod-nod for strike on Haqqani.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    Yes China may veto. But we need to do what is good for India. Will we?

    Anonymous Reply:

    India is NOTHING in global diplomacy. No one cares what India thinks and do. In world politics we are far below even pakistan.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Looks like all pakistan-sympathisers like Ravi are looking towards China…

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev

    u may feel nobody cares about India. Ok… but still we can start from your percieved zero position. We need to mould the world as per our needs…

  • Anonymous

    @Balwinder
    The otherday I learnt somehing from your reference to “chardi kala”, which is part of the prayer in gurudwara at the end of the kirtan when they ask for kids to be blessed with “chardi kala”. I must have attended more than 100 kirtans/langars in gurudwaras or friends houses and have organized a few langars myself with my wife in our local gurudwara. I am fluent in punjabi, but always wondered “a chardi kala, ki balay way ?” Somehow I never asked anyone. Your mention of it as meaning “byuoant enthusiasism” makes sense.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    तेरे पाने सरबत दा भला

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well I guess that’s anathor reference to “Chardi Kala” when they say something like
    “Nanak naam chardi kala, teray bhanay sarbat da bhala”
    However, when the rpiest summarizes the prayers at the end of the kirtan he often says things like
    Anyway, reference to sarbat da bhala reminds me of my father, who often used to say those 4 words “sarbat da bhala howay”.

    “bachhay yaan nu chardi-kala bakshni”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The meaning is simple.

    Nanak says “NAAM” (In Sikhism God is called Naam) is the only thing that would give you Chardi Kala, and that in turn will make every one happy and prosperous.

    My mentioning it to you, was a pun. Meaning that your asking the question will mean every one will benefit by the answer.

    Sikh prayer is for every one.

    जगत जलंदा राख ले अपनी किरपा तार, जित दुआरे उभरे तेते लेह उभार

    Anonymous Reply:

    No need to emphasise SIKH all the time..Sikh parayer??? Everyone knows we are talking about sikhism here.
    You never cease to amaze me with your deception.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The way I see teaching of Sikhism is that 95% of it is same as the teaching of Hinduism as in vedas, geeta, upanishads. There is one God. No shape, no form, no gender who is omni present and omniscience etc – are right out of Hinduism along with karma.

    Ravi Reply:

    Not sure all Sikhs would agree with you.

    Not that your fundo brain would accept that.

    “Ram rahim puran quran, anek kahain mat ek na manyo.”

    Keep fantasizing.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course not all Sikhs would agree with me. I dont know a single thing where even all Hindus would agree with me ! The name most often used for God in Kirtans and writings of the Gurus is ‘Ram’. By ‘Ram’ they refer God , not the son of Dashrath. All the mythology of Sikhism mostly common to Hinduism, along with definition of heavens. The Gurus themselves were all from Punjabi Khatri Hindu families.
    Sure criminal Khalistanis and such bigots would differ with me. They differ with Khushwant Singh too , who has said pretty much what I have said.
    Regarding the khalistanis and /or religious extrimists I would be ashamed if they agreed with me and that includes every peddler of the vile and criminal entity of Pakistan.

    Anonymous Reply:

    It doesn’t matter if Sikhism is 95% hindu or not. At least it is not murderous and violent like Islam.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    Why are you giving this terrorist Ravi undue importance? Didn’t you read his sympathies for Haqqani and protectors of Haqqanis?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well his consistent defense of some of the most bigoted and intolerant elements in S Asia or arguments that seek to minimize their vile, speak for themselves.

  • Anonymous

    may not be–
    jaswant was only 7 years old then.. advani a student not yet in politics.

    And Time/Life etc (esp old copies) may not have been available too..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ha ha.

    You misunderstood me.

    These facts are in public domain, so they would have known before they made their revision of Jinnah’s image.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mohan

    If one were to chronicle the misdeeds of the Shiv Sena, it would run into 5000 plus pages.

    The amount of damage they have done to image of Maharashtra and to Maharashtrians is horrific.

    Scores of projects that should have naturally come to the state, quietly just went away.

    For example, the Indian School of Business was to be set up in New Bombay. Due to intransigence of the Thakre Sr, who insisted on a certain percentage (20-25%) of the staffing and students must be reserved for “Marathi Manoos”. The CM, Manohar Joshi, who had done all the spade work, was left standing twiddling his thumbs, as the founders (mostly Bombay based Industrialists) decided to accept the invitation (with no strings attached) of Chandrababu Naidu to establish it in Hyderabad.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mohan/ Manohar,
    I may have unwittingly touched a raw nerve by introducing the Shiv Sena in the discussions!.
    One last question: how is it that no Shiv Sena biggie ever served time (or worse) for the riots in early ninetlties?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “how is it that no Shiv Sena biggie ever served time (or worse) for the riots in early ninetlties”?

    The same reason the RSS/BJP/VHP/BD goons in Gujarat are roaming free in Gujarat with impunity for 2002.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Just my 2 cents on Jinnah-Advani-Jaswant…

    Whatever Jinnah said in his so-called secular speech means nothing when you look at his utterance before 1947.
    - He threatened civil war if pakistan demand is not accepted.
    - Direct action day was one such blackmail tactic.
    - He always considered hindus and muslims as two separate nations with two different religion, two different culture, totally different heroes blah blah..

    I consider him ideological father of all Islamic terrorist in indian continent. In fact it would not be off the mark if we call him first terrorist of undivided India in 19th century.

    Now coming to certificate given by Advani on Jinnah, there are many factors behind why he uttered those words for murderous Jinnah-
    1. He was visiting pakistan who has accused him of plotting Jinnah’s murder in 1947 just few years back. He praised Jinnah to get rid of that tag.
    2. Secondly he was in his home-state of Sindh where he grew up..He got emotional and made stupid remarks.
    3. He reminded pakistanis that Jinnah (although deceitful) wanted pakistan to be a modern state where religion will be irrelevant. He thought this may spark a debate in pakistan on secularim but pakistanis being shameless (an example Ravi here) chose to ignore his speech.
    4. Advani thought by praising Jinnah, he may win some brownie points in Indian muslim community. It is true that many Indian muslims privately live and breathe pakistan but when it comes to voting they are smart.

    According to me Advani is politician of the past not the future..He should quietly retire and fade away from scene.

    Jaswant Singh too is in Advani mould and I guess he was feeling neglected in BJP.

    In the present time Jinnah means nothing both in India as well as pakistan. It is time we start concentrating of true leaders of pakistan such as Hafiz Sayeed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    agree for most part except generalization of Indian Muslims — there r traoitors in all groups!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    You need to live in muslim majority area without letting them know who you are, to understand what they think in private.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    PURE FICTION should be classified under Dewey Classification 800.

    Product of some one who has pure Texan BS for brain.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You must be talking about yourself who sees virtues in Islamic terrorism.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Agree with you Rajiv.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Caption on a Pak TV program
    “Ek taraf Umricca, doosray taraf Haqanni,
    Kya karay bechara Pakistani ? “

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Begging bowl lekar ghoom-ega
    China ko choom-ega

    Phir

    Phir Hindustan ke Track2 walon ko dhoodega…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Gopi,
    Thats the most important distinction. In 1920-ties, Jinnah argued that British were trying to rule by dividing Hindus and Muslims and rule them, so Hindus and Muslims , Congress and Muslim league , should fight together. He was then the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

    However in 1930-ties, as Congress gained more power , supported even by a majority of Muslims, and Jinnah’s Muslim league lost power in free and fair state assembly elections, he decided to use religion and fan communal hatred to win votes. The feudal lords , who feared loss of power in democratic India, rallied around him and financed him.

    He then started in his speeches to dwell on differences among Hindus and Muslims and would openly say such provocative things like
    “Hindus worship cows which I like to eat”.
    He had reduced himself to a petty, crimnal , thug in his ambitious and ego-maniacal lust for power. He finally acted as a catalyst, galvanizing communal hatred and personally lit the fires of partition riots with his well planned ‘day of direct action’ , under the command of his Muslim league government under Suharwardy, in Bengal.

    Jinnah should be remembered as one of the greatest mass-murderers in history.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Sanjay
    Pakistan has attacked Indian embassy in Kabul two times, killing Indian personnel. USA has taken the unusual step of publicly informing India that the terrorists that attacked Indian embassy were in contact with ISI.
    So what has India done ?
    Nothing.
    In Fact India is embaressed when USA informs it so publicly because the Indian government considers itself impotent to take any retributive measure. India certainly has options like financing the poor Baluchis who are fighting a most brutal crakdown from Pakistan. Not a single Baluch leader that opposes Pakistan is alive in Baluchistan. They get killed and there body dumnped on streets. In contrast every Kashmiri leader from Geelani to Malik who oppose Indian in Kashmir, have been protected by the state.
    Thugs don’t see the difference between democratic India and the most vile, criminal entity of Pakistan.

    Anyway, now that USA has publicly accused ISI of supporting attack on US consulate in Kabul, it will be interesting to see if USA too is as impotent as India in dealing with this incorrigibly criminal entity called Pakistan.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    We should be embarrased by the perrformance of the minions who pass of as our Foreign Ministers. Except for jaswant Singh in 98 and Atal bihari Vajpayee in 78, most foreign Ministers ahve been wimps who read out general statements.

    India should use the favourable situation to ram home the advantage. Most likely we will make a mess out of it.

    Tackling a state like Paksitan can be PRETTY simple ! The solution is films and dramas and not just bombs.

    If somebdoy were to make a fiction film which makes fun of the suicide bombers in a Dharmendra sort of way– loud, Punjabi and boisterous, you would have reduced the Pakistani killer machinery to a joke.

    i think the battle will really have to be fought at a level which makes the trainers of the suicide bombers look evil in the eyes of the Paksitanis.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    BJP and Jaswant lost the argument when they panicked and escorted the 3 terrorists to Kabul following Kandhar hijacking.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    U r reading the situation wrong. Jaswant Singh was a brave and maybe a foolhardy person. At that point, we did not get any international support. How would you have got the hostages free?

    Remember the taliban are medivial animals who will kill all innocents just for publicity. So either you gave them the terrorists or got the hostages killed.

    Do you think Sm Krishana or Pranab Mukherji (our previous foreign Minster) would have gone to Kandhar to personally negotiate with with fanatic and rabid killers?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    Interesting idea .

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    I agree with most of Rajeev’s points- edited-’ Now coming to certificate given by Advani on Jinnah, many factors -

    1. He was visiting pakistan who had accused him of plotting Jinnah’s murder
    2. He reminded pakistanis that Jinnah wanted pakistan to be a modern state where religion will be irrelevant.
    3. Advani thought by praising Jinnah, he may win some brownie points in Indian muslim community. ‘
    ————————————–
    can I add 4. Godhra- Gujrat

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Very selective quoting of Advani or Jaswant on Qatl-e-azam Jinnah is mischivious and done mostly by Pak peddlers.

    In 1920-ties, Jinnah argued that British were trying to rule by dividing Hindus and Muslims and rule them, so Hindus and Muslims , Congress and Muslim league , should fight together. He was then the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

    However in 1930-ties, as Congress gained more power , supported even by a majority of Muslims, and Jinnah’s Muslim league lost power in free and fair state assembly elections, he decided to use religion and fan communal hatred to win votes. The feudal lords , who feared loss of power in democratic India, rallied around him and financed him.

    He then started in his speeches to dwell on differences among Hindus and Muslims and would openly say such provocative things like
    “Hindus worship cows which I like to eat”.
    He had reduced himself to a petty, crimnal , thug in his ambitious and ego-maniacal lust for power. He finally acted as a catalyst, galvanizing communal hatred and personally lit the fires of partition riots with his well planned ‘day of direct action’ , under the command of his Muslim league government under Suharwardy, in Bengal.

    Jinnah should be remembered as one of the greatest mass-murderers in history

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,

    Wajid Ali, a friend of Jinnah, once asked him, “Quaid, tell me how you have bamboozled the Musalmans. You enjoy yourself in the evening, you are not a scholar of Urdu, you don’t practice your religion – how do you manage to be their leader? Jinnah replied, ’have I ever told you that I am your leader as a Musalman? I am an advocate, pleading the cause of Musalmans, taking the part of Musalmans, fighting their fight. Nothing more nothing less”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    That probably is a better way to understand Jinnah.

    Don’t look at what he is saying; look at who he is representing.

    In that respect, the very rabid ultra conservative Muslims that forced the partition of India, are the ones who are now in ascendency in Pakistan.

    But all Pakistani’s or Muslims are not like them. It is this distinction we need to keep a hold of.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Moti lal Nehru wasa TOADY. He was NEVER a barrister, he was MUKHTAR , pleaders as they were known in mughal courts.

  • Dr Mishra

    rajiiiv and everyone says-
    ‘ BJP and Jaswant lost the argument when they panicked and escorted the 3 terrorists to Kabul following Kandhar hijacking. ‘

    Can I diagree- the lives of 150 passengers were at stake, in a foreign lawless land with Taleban in charge- and it was not a bluff, the passengers could easily have been killed and India could have done sweet f all.

    Very very difficult decision, very hard bargaining, only 3 terrorists released. I think I would have done the same. Remember this was 1999, pre 911 before US swung to our side. We were reeling under Kashmir terror, no end in sight…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr Mishra:

    There are always two sides/multiple approaches..
    To me the Indian Govt took a “political” decision; not the right decision.

    The 150 passengers must have been sacrificed, rather than the honour of India — because India lives longer than us, the 150 passengers, the ministers. India’s honour is not something that can be bargained by a few peddly terrorists.

    .ya it is a tough statement…with all my sympathies to the families, looking from outside, that is what I would have done…

    Now, no politician will get reelected if he does something like this, unless, that politician is of Gandhi, Patel (or even Anna) stature.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    It surely must have been a very tough decision to make. Even P Chidambram admitted later that he would not know how he would have acted in a similar situation.

    Perhaps, if our Government then had acted tougher for little while longer, then may be the outcome would have been different.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Advani and Jinnah… and Modi!

    Advani is a politican whose time has gone. But I hink his predicament on visiting Sindh was the same as that of Modi being offered a religious cap.

    I think Modi should have worn the Muslim cap just to show his solidarity.

    While Advani could have gone slow on jinnah, even though his intention probably wa to tell them that jinnah would not have been in favour fo Traliban and LeT but would have chosen a liberal modern government which had place for other religions.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    Modi refusing to wear the skullcap, to me, was a great example of courage and self-confidence. “I am not going to do something just because it is politically correct”..Kudos to Modi -

    Any “lesser” politician would have worn not one, but two!
    Secularits will definitely find fault; but voters will definitely like him more!
    High time for a strong man .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No comments ! I would have still gone for the skull cap.. or even a bowler hat…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Just imgine that Modi had accepted the skull cap and for 5 minutes even wore it.

    What do you think would have happened to his image.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-

    It would have been a double negative..

    People hounding him will say that he wore it appease/wash off
    .
    People who are for him will say he has become like any other politician.

    By not wearing, he has got a “delta” more admiration from the first group, while holding on to the second.

    I just wish other politicians had his gut! Call a spade a spade

    (not the gut of committing the crimes some attribute to)

    good night, it is late here.

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    On every count I disagree with you.

    By not wearing all he achieved was consolidated his existing fan base. He would not have added to it.

    Whilst, by wearing it, he would have lost a negligible proportion of his fan base but would have gained my new ones not only in Gujarat but nationally.

    He would have catapulted himself on the National Stage.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    If he had refused to wear headgear of various regions of Gujarat and the skullcap, everything would have been fine. By singly out one, he sent out a wrong message in a country that seeks to celebrate its diversity. The issue of being a strong man, etc. is not the point. He only managed to convey that all his talk of all inclusive welfare, development, progress, blah, blah and blah is just talk.

    One can admire for his honesty to tell a section of the community that he would deal with them on his own terms. On the other hand, heavens would not have fallen, if he had worn the ………….

    “He worked overtime to ………..”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    let me give the context and also content of the so called Jinnah praise. I am quoting Advani himself, who has said that he stood by every word he had written in the visitors’ diary at Jinnah’s mausoleum.

    PLEASE NOTE, CAREFULLY, THAT WHILE ADVANI HAS QUOTED SWAMI RANGANATHANANDA, SAROJINI NAIDU AND JINNAH HIMSELF, HE HAS NOT SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS THAT JINNAH WAS A SECULAR. ‘A GREAT MAN’-YES, BUT SECULAR? NO.

    He (Advani) explained how his meeting with the then Ramkrishna Mission chief Swami Ranganathananda had led him to make the Jinnah comment in a “subconscious way” over three years back.(2005)

    “Swamiji(Ranganathananda), in particular, lauded Jinnah’s historic speech in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11 August 1947 and said, “The true exposition of the meaning of secularism can be found in this speech. In a subconscious way, this last conversation with Swamiji was to play a decisive contributory role in my own remarks about Jinnah when I went to Pakistan in May-June 2005,”

    “Our conversation at this last meeting (in 2003 in Kolkata) centred on our days in Karachi, the tragic developments triggered by Partition and the role of Mohammed Ali Jinnah,” he writes.

    The BJP leader said that Jinnah, in his speech to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947, had favoured a secular and non-theocratic state and the Pakistan founder was of the view that there should not be any difference between Hindus and Muslims as all were its citizens.

    “There are many people who leave an irreversible stamp on history. But there are few who actually create history. Qaed-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah was one such rare individual. In his early years, leading luminary of freedom struggle Sarojini Naidu described Jinnah as an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. His address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947 is really a classic and a forceful espousal of a secular state in which every citizen would be free to follow his own religion. The State shall make no distinction between the citizens on the grounds of faith. My respectful homage to this great man.”

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    I guess you are right. Advani is too shrewd a politician to fall into the praise Jinnah at all costs trap. His remarks were probably wrenched out of context and it was made to seem that he had become a Jinnah spokesman.

    Strangely most Pakistani jehadi parties consider Jinnah a wimp and possible weak on Hindus since he never talked about massacring or converting them as these jehadis do.

    In comparison to them Jinnah certainly looks like an ambassador of peace and secularism

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    By the way… where is Vijay Kumar. His blogging got me to this place, as that of many of you guys…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    One said : Hindus and Muslims are like my two eyes.
    Other said : Hindus worship cows which I would like to eat.

    One said : India would be divided over my dead body.
    Other said : I would have India divided or destroyed.

    One faught for communal harmony and unity.
    The other saw opportunity in communal hatred, murder, carnage just as the vultures who fed on the dead bodies on the streets of Calcutta following Jinnah’s direct action.

    Yes Jinnah’s lust for power ended in politics of a communal mass murderer and no wonder the nation his evel ideology spawned is vilest of all entities. Its an entity who operative ideology, like that of his hero, is fraud, deceit and duplicity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The communal mass murderer’s legacy continues in the Land of the Pure…with the whole country belonging to the last pure man..

    The country established on farce and blood will wither away by its farces

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Balls the trolls , AYESHA JALAL is of AMERICAN NATIONALITY, all her studies were in american colleges. She dedicates her book to her TUTOR at cambridge, a bengalee bhadrolok ,and her immeasurable debt to Prof Sugata Bose , another bhadrolok , directly related to Netaji Subhas Bose.
    Then what’s the point in talking to a TROLL

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Rajiiv

    I think in the end the partition was good for all of us. The parts and the ideology which was perrpetually violent is no longer part of us.

    In the end we may need to thank jinnah for this. I can’t see how an Akhand bharat… !! A partitioned Bharat seems a better preposition.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I certainly agree on that point. Nehru, Patel had come to the same conclusion that Jinnah’s communal frenzy to have India divided or destroyed was far more stronger than their calls for unity and brother-hood. Once that communal ideology was unleashed and legitimized, partition was a reality, sooner or later.

    As some Pakistanis have argued, Jinah divided subsontinent Muslims into 3 parts, W Pakistan, Bangladesh and India and did a favour to India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “In the end we may need to thank jinnah for this. I can’t see how an Akhand bharat… !! A partitioned Bharat seems a better preposition”.

    Try telling that to the RSS and other crackpots in the country.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    MY TWO PENNY OPERA(in response to two pence , also exchange rate is 100 pence will fetch 164 cents.

    JINNAH made a will to donate substantial amount of money to Aligarh university and BOMBAY UNIVERSITY(yes you are reading it correct , his alma mater)
    HE DID NOT CHANGE HIS WILL TILL HIS DEATH

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Too many ii’s don’t improve perception. For that one has to lighten the mind

    मेरे हमनफस, मेरे हमनवा, मुझे दोस्त बन के दगा न दे
    मैं हूँ दर्द-ऐ-इश्क से जान-वलब, मुझे ज़िन्दगी की दुआ न दे

    मेरे दाग़-ऐ-दिल से है रौशनी, इसी रौशनी से है ज़िन्दगी
    मुझे डर है ऐ मेरे चारागर, यह चिराग तू ही बुझा न दे

    मुझे ऐ छोढ़ दे मेरे हाल पर, तेरा क्या भरोसा है चारागर
    यह तेरी नवाजिश-ऐ-मुख़्तसर, मेरा दर्द और बड़ा न दे

    मेरा अजम इतना बुलंद है, के पराये शोलों का डर नहीं
    मुझे खौफ आतिश-ऐ-गुल से है, यह कहीं चमन को जला न दे

    वोह उठें हैं लेके होम-ओ-सुबू, अरे ओ ‘शकील’ कहाँ हैं तू
    तेरा जाम लेने को बज़्म में कोई और हाथ बड़ा न दे!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sorry DISGSTING Shan, u do NOT get away so easy. Ayesha Jalal was a pakistani who migrated to US, you did not know that and are now trying to hide yr mistake by calling her american. Pathetic, sickening
    Like your LIES about= teachers and urologists in Uk, bengal GDP, and total ignorance of farming subsidy of 60 billion euros. Dont mind yr being IGNORANT allatime, it is yr cheap boasts and meaningless verbosity tbat raises my Bp.
    She married Netaji,s grand nephew who helped her in her battle against Hindujas, another fact u did NOT know, u smelly cockroach

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Gopi, Mishraji has the knack of poting the most provocative posts. Kandahar hijack=I want a vote, who is right=
    1. Mishra doc says, save 150 passengers, let 3 terrorists go. He further provokes when he says, only 3 terrorists. Wah
    2. Gopi says, let 150 die. He says Indian honor more imp
    3. Maybe u have better response, a totally different tareeka.
    Pl vote, this is no trap, I respect gopi and docsaab much.
    Please u vote as u would have done not as you would like to have done. Ie, no waffle, no chatterati cocktail party type emty talk

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No I would not have given up so early.
    We knew that the hijackers were answerable to ISI and should have piled up pressure on Pakistan. We should have started by expelling their ambassador to India, after privately giving them 24 hour notice to have the hostages free. We should have made clear to Pakistanis that we viewed Pakistan accountable for the actions of the hijackers, who were all Pak nationals.
    Meanwhile, the hijackers , one of them was a brother of JeM terrorist who was freed, were equally concerned about the fate of the terrorists in Indian custody. We would have given the hijackers two options. They free the hostages and India would free the prisoners once they completed the prison term.
    If they harmed the hostages then India would give the prisoners real life-sentences including death.

    Would all this have worked ? I dont know. But India gave up too early.
    Mr Vajpayee should have publicly taken the people into confidense regarding the repurcussions of bowing to terrorist demands and privately met with the families of the hostages to personally ask their patience and support. However, sinve Vajpayee did not have that personal conviction to risk all and not succumb, he took the easier way out , not for personal gain, but he thought the fight was not worth it. Thats where I differ. The government vacillation meanwhile emboldened the media and the families to mount more pressure on the government, which was deplorable and was a result of Government not communicating its will properly.

    The time gained should have been used to bring more diplomatic pressure on Pakistan, through USA, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia. Pakistan state had the key to resolve this and we should have made clear and exacted a long term cost on Pakistan if it did not free the hostages.

    I can bet, under similar circumstances today, US government would risk the lives of the hostages rather than give in to terrorist demands.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    totally impractical rajiv, diplomatic pressure takes weeks to build up. You expel diplomat, they do same.
    When Iranians took US embassy hostage, US could do DHELA.
    Live in the real world- not every battle can be one. One step back sometimes to take two forward another time

    Anonymous Reply:

    Even mad mullah Iranians had to finally release all the hostages, USA showed patience and persistance.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “But India gave up too early.”

    I agree.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balls the trolls , I first came across Ayesha Jalal In a book edited by Irfan Habib, called akbar and his India .This should be enough to get yourKacha in a twist.

    She obtained her BA, majoring in History and Political Science, from Wellesley College, USA, and her doctorate in history from the University of Cambridge. Jalal has been Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge (1980-84), Leverhulme Fellow at the Center of South Asian Studies, Cambridge (1984-87), Fellow of the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Scholars in Washington, DC (1985-86) and Academy Scholar at the Harvard Academy for International and Area Studies(1988-90). She has taught at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Tufts University, Columbia University, Harvard University
    So what is Arnold Schwarznegger, AUSTRIAN OR AMERICAN.
    I am not aware Yanks allowing foreigners standing for elections
    More on jinnah after my shower and green tea.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Loser SHAN still trying disparately to cover his mistake. Try saying “Shwarzenegger is not Austrian ” and see how stupid u sound. Everday shan cockrach makes mistakes

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Shan

    Your post of 20 hrs ago on TWO TOPICS.
    Jinnah and the US response to pakistan.

    Was a delight to read and so very true.

    Ravi

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vote no 2
    should Modi have worn the muslim cap=
    Gopi says, no
    SAnjay mittal says yes
    what do u say
    pl vote

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Cap vote, I stik my neck out.
    OF COURSE MODI SHOULD HAVE WORN THE CAP, WHAT A WASTED OPPORTUNITY.

    But that is Modi for you, a vital bit missing. It would have pleased the muslims, would have built bridges. Magnanimity in victory, actually a sullied victory in which economic growth is the only objective, was essential

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    I think this is what Modi should have done.

    1. He should have worn the skull cap for five minutes.

    2. The in front of the camera he should have removed the skull cap and replaced it with a BLACK CAP.

    3. He should have stuck a Groucho Marx mustache on his face.

    4. With a twisted face, slightly tilting to one side, he should have said.

    5. All people are born alike – except Hindus and Muslims.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Your current prophet king of Saudi Arabia refused to visit Rajghat citing religious reasons…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev, why obsess always with lowly Saudia. Who cares what their primitive kings do ?

    Use them to ensure that max indians get job there, are well treated and that we have some influence with OIC. Whether Saud goes to Rajghat or jhumritaliya reflects on his charater

    Anonymous Reply:

    Is Saudi Arabia’s king a role model for Modi or for that matter any Indian politician?

    Anonymous Reply:

    “…………to visit Rajghat ………”

    Coming from a person, who in the previous blog, was out to take Mahatma Gandhi to the cleaners, speaks volumes. In your books, the King must be right not to visit ….

    Anonymous Reply:

    Excellent.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Now, now..
    methinks he should have worn the cap; what’s the big deal?
    It has been suggested that he did not do so because he was worried his core constituency would desert him.
    Desert him? Really? And go where?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Where do you think. Where do you think it was before the Black Topi Wallah’s took over.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balwinder, I have not followed the cap episode. It looks trivial to me. However, if someone requests me to wear a cap that would make someone happy if I wear a cap for few moments, I would do so. However, I would not like someone who would wear a cap cynically for political gain. I dont know how exactly the scenario happened, so cannot give an opinion.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This a riposte to the RABID DOGS of FAKE NATIONALISM
    This is from Ayesha Jalal’s book “The Sole Spokesman”
    Quote: Anxious to forge a common nationalist front against the british , jinnah joined the congress and regularly attended its anual gatherings.
    it was jinnah who persuaded the league and the congress to agree upon a common scheme of reforms.
    At the league’s Lucknow conference jinnah confessed that he had always been a STAUNCH CONGRESSMAN AND HAD NO LOVE FOR SECTARIAN CRIES.
    UNQUOTE

    Some More
    Gandhi’s captured the congress in 1920 with the help of pro khilafat Muslims.
    By declaring support for Khilafat , gandhi secured the allegiance of an impressive array of Muslim Ulema . The fusion of religion and politics had left Jinnah cold in the wings.
    HE DENOUNCED GANDHI FOR CAUSING SCHISM , not only Hindus and Muslims , but between hindus and Hindus and Muslims and Muslims.

    Congress and Muslim polity in 1935-1940 , was exactly like BJP and MUSLIMS 2010.
    BJP goes on with the same mantra , as modi did recently “we do not make distinction between hindus and muslims , ALL SAME IN YOUR EYES.
    Is it really HOW ABOUT THE SKULL CAP , HOW ABOUT A MUSLIM HEAD OF BJP
    HOW ABOUT TOGADIA asking Muslims to give genetic evidence of Indian stock.
    Hypocrisy and opinion is one thing rational analysis is another.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    All this has already been said much better by several bloggers before. Why repeat and even worse pretend u r saying something mindbowing.
    or r u shabbily still trying cover your ignorant statement that AYESHA JALAL was not pakistani. Pathetic.

    Like saying Swarzeneger is not Austrian, Vishy Anand is not Indian, Mark Tully is not English, Swaraj Paul is not Indian. Multiple identities we all have, smelly cockroach DR SHAN,just fade away. U r lying too much nowadays

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    what is cap.he could wear for a moment.but now brhmnsts want his neck like ghandhi,a bania was killed like treet dog by a chitpavan after aim of freedom(socalled)was achieved.
    brhmnst do clean job.power without accontability.hawala dealer ramdev was hyped throgh media to loot india and indians.now he will go to jail on foriegn exchange charges.
    anna was hyped by their media to establish dictatorship of brhmns through lokpal bill.next 100 supreme cout judgeswill be brhmns only.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Fake Ram Auter, get lost.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Typical BJP/RSS response. Can not deal with the points, attack the person.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) As if the blog is owned by you, that you tell others to get lost. Who you think you are?

    2) A person would rather keep silent if he is unable to refute the points raised, but then I am talking about a sensible person.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar Ji.

    BV Shenoy is a bully.

    Last time he led the charge and succeeded. That encouraged him and he started attacking others too.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, you are wrong. He is not a bully. He attempts to be one.

    Ravi Reply:

    Well in that case let us ensure that he does not succeed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    He has never succeeded with me at least and would not.

    Ravi Reply:

    He has in every single blog tried to persuade other blogers to not engage with me, because in his opinion I am a Fake.

    No one has taken any notice of it.

    So not very successful with me either.

    Anonymous Reply:

    In the last blog, he had questioned some of his supposed “fans and chelas” for interacting with me. They simply ignored him.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    this fake Ravi has provided the proof for you why this cretin was banned.

    Ravi Reply:

    Have I??

    Care to share it with us.

    That is news to me.

    The only proof we have is that you are dyed Saffron Hindu Fundo.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    I wish you had some sense and a little inkling about why bloggers here are asking for banning this cretin, before rushing to defend him.

    “Nothing is so good for an ignorant man as silence; and if he was sensible of this he would not be ignorant.”

    Anonymous Reply:

    That is not the point

    Let Vinod Sharma decide, you and the rest including me do not have even a millionth of millimetre locus standi to tell anyone to get lost. You do not like someone’s post or find it inane or full of balderdash – the best policy is to ignore it – the way I treat your posts.

    Silence is golden. If one keeps silent, one may never know whether the person is ignorant or whatever. If he opens his mouth, then there is no doubt left.

    I hope, you understand what I am hinting at.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Engrich… get you head examined and make a doctor rich…

    The doctor who makes sense of your nonsensical mumblings will win a nobel prize for deciphering the language of mad and psychos…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ARE JEWS A RACE
    Another pathetic lie of DR SHAN exposed. The idiot said on Zias blog that Jews are a separate race. Rabba merey, the moron comes out with one lie after another.
    It is well known that in US and Europe jews have loved to call themseves a race to come under Race relation act to prevent themselves better. But that is politics.

    EVEN A 8 YEAR OLD KNOWS THAT JEWS COME FROM DIFFERENT RACES AND NATIONALITIES. Ashkenazi jews are from Europe and Sephardic jews are from Middle east. You have jews from russia, india, africa.

    There r geneyic differences in various jews and some illnesses are more common insome groups. There was program on National geographic about that. Now watch as SHAN distracts, confuses, writes long meaningless posts !!! THIS IS GETTING TOO REPETIVE SHAN, your lies are giving me Bp. IMBECILE

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Fake Ram Auter,
    GET LOST

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Shenoy

    What is your response to the points being made.

    Usually you are quite keen on detailed points of this nature.

    Why the unneccasry hostility, why not counter the points being made.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vote, Who thinks Balwinder has only one ******* , his mouth doubles as his a r s e.
    JEWS ARE A RACE , they all originate from Israel , son Of Abraham , then they left
    THE DIASPORA , and spread all over the world, the lost tribe ,have you ever heard of that . Different Jews are different TRIBES , but RACE non the less , SEMITIC RACE, who originally came from near Tigris and Euphrates

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    To All and Mr Sharma

    Please bar Engrich from this blog ..he is RamAutar under a different name. He drove away the participators in Zia’s blog (there used to be 800-900 opinions, now it is around 40-50 only, with half of it still from Engrich vomiting about Jews and Brahmins).

    This blog will go Zia’ way if Engrich is not banned.

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    How have you been Ram Autar/ Tejender/ Laxman….?
    Just curious; do you ever think of running your own blog? It’s real easy; you can set up one in Wordpress or blogger real quick.
    You have enough followers here; so, visitor starts will start looking good from day one. Frankly, by coming here, you are not monetizing your potential as a star blogger.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ashish u dont know i am your and read all ur blogs.u have good knowledge of communist movement.but lazy brhmns have destroyed this movement.i dont what maa kali will do.
    they lost because they ignored muslim voters.their condition did not improve during their rule,though they came to power because of their votes.
    i hope they will correct their mistakes when come next time to power.

    now brhmn bania (marwari)nexus is ruling west bengal.
    i hope this great state will shine.again.

    modi is creation of brhmncl media.he has done nothing except dstroying the institutions of state.
    judiciary executive and police were under him not under lawanyhow he is illetrate ex-teaboy of road side restraunt.what else can be expected from him him.as per datas poverty has increased under his rule.flow of money is hermeticaly sealed.fruits of development is not reaching to poors.
    brhmnical media cracy can do wonders.because of them an illerate swarasti is worshipped as godess of knowledge.they are really great people.
    of land.he should be tried in special court for this.

    they made indian fight with indians on ram temple issue for more than decade.when brhmn bharadwaj entered halfnama i n supreme court confirming that rama never ex
    istd on indian soil.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Completely agree with shoeb.
    Dear Vinodji
    ………DEAR VINODJI
    your blog your choice
    ……Pl you ban engrich alias tajender aka ramavtar

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    How can Vinodji ban this fake, when two great bloggers, Fake Ravi and Manohar_T are defending him?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pathetic sour grapes of a RSS Hindu Fundo

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Some of the times, you really surprise me.

    Calling me a great blogger is one such instance. I humbly accept the compliment.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    P A T H E T I C. S I C K R A N T I N G F U N D O

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    OK. I “see” it.

    Just because Muslims have never obliged the Hindus, Modi did not oblige and refused to wear the skull-cap.

    One gets to “learn” something everyday if one keeps one’s eyes open. Thanks for “educating me”. I must be really “stupid” not to have seen the episode from this angle.

    This is a message for the minorities – be good, concede all the demands (however unreasonable) of the Hindutvawadis, then watch Modi – how obliging he will be towards the community (TIC).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Please educate me. What is it that you find foul in my above post? I would humbly apologise.

    BTW, I never asked them to concede all the demands – just one. You see what you want to see in my post.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I was expecting a foul-mouthed response, like the last time. If you have chosen not to, I apologise.

    It is not you who is asking for one, it is the RSS/BJP/VHP (Hindutvawadis and not Hindus – please keep that distinction in mind) , they have laid claims on 3000+ mosques in the country, saying they were built after destroying the temples.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar, Just for an argument sake; if there is solid proof (titles/land records) that these mosques were built on temple land, and if some of these mosques are not active; what should be the problem in reverting these non-active mosques that are built on temple land (there have to be irrefutable proof)

    Ravi Reply:

    Shoeb

    In most cases the land does belong to some body.

    The point is not that Temples can not be built. The point is that such activity is a part of a political game.

  • Anonymous

    agree

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    What points? If you know the above is true you can prove it in a court of law, please proceed. The courts were open when I checked last.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ishwar

    The allegations about Modi and his government can only be investigated by the Lokayukta, whose appointment Modi has been delaying it for the last 8 years and now has gone to the court when one was appointed. If he has not done anything wrong, then why oppose the appointment of R. A. Mehta in the High Court? What is he scared of?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar, If I oppose something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I am scared of it. I oppose it, because it is wrong. Now, do you see the irony here? A governor appoints a Lokayukta without consulting the govt. of the state. Is this how the President of the country should also work?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are not answering my main question. Why didn’t he take steps to appoint one for 8 years. So perhaps out of exasperation the Governor called the other members of the slectionpanel and did the needful. Whether the Governor was right or wrong, let the Court decide.

    Anonymous Reply:

    You find fault with the Governor for appoint a Lokayukta without consultting Modi, but you seem nothing wrong if Modi does not bother to get one appointed for 8 long years. Strange set of standards you have.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Modi had sent a list of 3 ex-chief justices to the governor, none of whom the governor liked.

    He had called the opposition leader for consultation and consensus, but the LOP abstained from attending any of these meetings.

    The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional. She appointed Desai because Desai was very much liked by Teesta Setalvad. He has also the reputation of being a sympathiser of some of the virulently anti-Modi NGOs, which is why his appointment, ultra-virus as it is, is being opposed by Modi government.

    The fact that the MMS government is contemplating recall of the Lokayukta unofficially itself is proof that Modi is right in his constitutional position.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    “Very good”. You really know how to “defend” your side, taking the help of Mayawati. Let me see how I can help you, never mind if it obfuscates the matter.

    BSY and Reddy Brothers have been accused of corruption.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    why did you forget Dharam Singh, Kumaraswamy and also Digambar Kamat afflicted by the same scam?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This blog is currently under attack from a pak-autar, a mlechha and there promoter a dirty self-appointed defender of the most vile. Please avoid contact.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ethiopian jews are converts , they are not the original jewish people

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I was under the impression that Flashas are one of the lost tribe, as are the Jews who live in the North Eastern States of India. Though I am not 100%

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shoeb

    You wrote
    “Manohar, Just for an argument sake; if there is solid proof (titles/land records) that these mosques were built on temple land, and if some of these mosques are not active; what should be the problem in reverting these non-active mosques that are built on temple land (there have to be irrefutable proof)”

    1) Good that you use the word – If

    2) Solid Proof? – If they have it (otherwise then they should shut -up) , then they should have approached the courts long ago in the jurisdiction concerned for each of the mosques. That the fact they have not, shows there is no proof, ,just dubious claims or manufactured evidence and want the Muslim community to the generous to the fault and hand over these places peacefully. Ask the RSS/VHP, as to why haven’t they filed suits in the courts? In case of Babri Masjid title suit case – they had said they would not accept the verdict it it went against them.

    Where is the “solid” proof even in the case of Babri Masjid? They tried to buttress their case by claiming that it is the belief of Hindus (actually Hindutvawadis) that Ram was born on the same spot – no proof, just belief. Moreover, Buddhists claim that below the supposed Ram temple (under the Babri Masjid) was built after destroying a Buddhist temple.

    Because they do not have solid proof – they want the parliament to pass a law so that there claims can have a legal backing.

    How far back in time can we keep going to undo the supposed or real historical “wrongs”?

    In 2003, the RSS/VHP threatened the Muslims – hand over the entire Barbri Masjid land or we will claim thousands more mosques.

    On a larger note, the rightful place of Ram or of any God is in one’s heart and not in some “grand temples”.

    The Supreme Court has already expressed its displeasure about the convoluted decision of the Allahabad High Court.

    The fact, this is part of the larger game plans of the RSS propaganda via falsehoods, lies and untruths. Rewriting history to suit their sinister agenda is one.

    3) I have no idea as how many of these mosques are non-active or active, but that is not the point at all.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    US-born radical Islamist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, a key al-Qaeda leader, has been killed in Yemen, the country’s defence ministry said.

    I am glad.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Justice at last

    India abuse: Scores guilty of Dalit rape and torture

    A court in India has convicted 269 police and forest officials of torturing and abusing more than 100 low-caste tribespeople in a 1992 raid.

    Officials went to the village of Vachathi in southern Tamil Nadu state looking for smuggled sandalwood.

    Over two days, 18 women were raped, at least 100 Dalits (former untouchables) abused and homes and cattle looted.

    Seventeen officials were found guilty of rape and the rest were convicted of “atrocities against Dalits”.

    Source the BBC

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ravi
    So whats your point ? You look for news of any crimes committed and if the victim is dalit post it here ? I have shown you statistically that incidence of rape on dalit is in same percentage of their population as the incidense of rape on non-dalits. This was after you lied about rapes of dalits in UP with cooked up numbers.

    Do we have a news item like Brahmin girl raped , or kshatriya girl raped ?
    Why is the caste important only when the victim is a so called dalit ?
    What about of the caste of the perpetrators ? How many of them were dalit ?
    Does it even matter when the courts and the judicial system punishes people irrespective of their caste ? Do we have news item like ‘A dalit caught stealing’ or ‘a dalit caught cheating or a dalit charged with murder ?

    Would that not be a pathetic way of reporting news ?

    Why are you so interested in the caste of the victim , only when the victim is dalit ?
    Is that just because it fits into your anti-India, anti-Hindu propoganda here ?
    You certainly are more sick and dirty than I thought.

    The fact that the perpetrators of the crime were not protected but prosecuted and punished by the state is the most important part of the news. If the perpetrators were protected just because the victims were dalit then it would be a outrageous news.

    If you want to speak against state sponsored criminality and state ideology inspired discrimination , then talk about Pakistan that you often defend here where the state itself is the criminal and promotes criminality and oppression through constitutional methods. Where the entire state is a criminal.

    There is hardly any difference between the dirty pakistani Ram avatar , who searches the internet for anti-India, anti-Hindu stuff and posts it here and you.

    The more you post such stuff , the more you show your true colors and prove that every word that I and many others have used to define you and your motivations is correct. You deserve every bit of the scorn and derision that is heaped on you.

    Please keep proving me correct.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    There is no doubt and never ever has been about you being correct. Einstien is more likely to be wrong, than you.

    Here are some other facts for you to chew on.

    1. You have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that I am a liar.

    2. You know that I sympathise with the Jihadi causes and donate money to Hafiz Saeed.

    3. You also know that I am a fully paid ISI agent, masquerading here as Ravi, My real name is Ramautarudeen Sapearekibeen Shenoyudbaig Rajivullah. I am not an Indian, I am an Arab – a direct decendant of Prophet Mohd’s Nine yr old bride, from her mothers side.

    How do you imagine, I will be able to fool someone like you, who is so incredibly perceptive and a know it all.

    I am sure some one will soon oblige you and asnswer your questions and put you out of your misery. Though a bullet right between the eyes would probably be more effective.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now that you have revealed your lineage going back to the prophet himself, Manohar-T will prostrate before you or in your direction (west). Dhanya ho, Manohar!

    Ravi Reply:

    Not before you get your head out of the groin of Mr Bhagwat, not sure what it is doing there. But one can guess from the expression upon his face.

    Anonymous Reply:

    You should worry about yourself, you have been caught with your pants down in defence of Modi and then you tried to find a fig leaf to hide your embarrassment.

  • Anonymous

    Shoeb,
    I believe in using force where/when it is needed. However, I do not believe in using tools like nuclear bomb, that scorches the earth, leave damaging residue affecting generations.
    I believe dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a wrong and immoral decision. I do not support the Japanese cause in the war; but I believe there were other ways of stopping the war. Even if they had to use the nukes, they should not have used it on two cities; one would have been enough.

    Regarding the invasion of terrorist sates — well, I like the approach they used in targeting and killing Al awlaki..I am for drones and targeted assassinations, not a wholesale attack on a country.

    In that light, I hope US deepens its drone attack in Pakistan rather than a wholesale invasion.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi
    So whats your point ? You look for news of any crimes committed and if the victim is dalit post it here ? I have shown you statistically that incidence of rape on dalit is in same percentage of their population as the incidense of rape on non-dalits.

    Do we have a news item like Brahmin girl raped , or kshatriya girl raped ?
    Why is the caste important only when the victim is a so called dalit ?
    What about of the caste of the perpetrators ? How many of them were dalit ?
    Does it even matter when the courts and the judicial system punishes people irrespective of their caste ? Do we have news item like ‘A dalit caught stealing’ or ‘a dalit caught cheating or a dalit charged with murder ?

    Would that not be a pathetic way of reporting news ?

    Why are you so interested in the caste of the victim , only when the victim is dalit ?
    Is that just because it fits into your anti-India, anti-Hindu propoganda here ?
    You certainly are more sick and dirty than I thought.

    The fact that the perpetrators of the crime were not protected but prosecuted and punished by the state is the most important part of the news. If the perpetrators were protected just because the victims were dalit then it would be a outrageous news.

    If you want to speak against state sponsored criminality and state ideology inspired discrimination , then talk about Pakistan that you often defend here where the state itself is the criminal and promotes criminality and oppression through constitutional methods. Where the entire state is a criminal.

    There is hardly any difference between the dirty pakistani Ram avatar , who searches the internet for anti-India, anti-Hindu stuff and posts it here and you.

    The more you post such stuff , the more you show your true colors and prove that every word that I and many others have used to define you and your motivations is correct. You deserve every scorn and derision that is heaped on you.

    Please keep doing so and proving me right.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    a Pakiatni american. Samir Khan, 24 yr old, propaganda chief for Awlaki, was also killed in the raid..
    Samir Khan apparently had jehadi blogs propagating awalki’s violent message…
    He is connected with some sh–tty org in Pak called Tanzil-e-Islam (???)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Please send your condolenses on Pakistani born criminal Samir Khan’s end to the dirty pak peddler suffering from dalit-rape syndrome.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    who will then pass it on to the ISI, his paymasters.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~~ :) :) ~~ VIJAY KUMAR KA DOSTON KO SALAAM ~~~ :) :) ~~~~~
    ——————————————————————————————————————

    Well was off blogging as was caught up in an intercity assignment. But… I missed this blog !! Thanks to all the friends who remebered me… especially Gopi, Mohan and Sanjay who mentioned my name here.

    Just here for a short take… on my old Pal Ravi

    O Ravi Bhaiya… the return of T U R D Tajendar in the new form of Engrich seems to have given you Viagra.

    Lagda hai Engrich di bhasha vichon
    T U R D Tajendar chattiyan maare,
    Sialkoti Ravi hun rape rape karre ishare’

    ——————————————————

    Ravi you old f a r t your nemisis is back again
    All your rape fantasies are going down the drain

    An ISI fundoo you have become
    Just watch out, drones over your head,
    May anytime come ….

    And at least on this blog
    be prepared to live the life of a dog !!

    Hahaha hAA HA !!

    Just needed this shot of humour to get my head rocking again…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Welcome back Vijay

    I rather be killed by you than shagged by Julia Roberts.

    But then that is me.

    I missed you as much as I missed a hole in my head.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ode to my self-proclaiming nemesis Vijay

    चातियाँ मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, संघियाँ ने कीते सवाल
    होर मनोहर ने बड़ी ज़ोरदार, कस कस के दो थ्प्पर्ड मारे

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, विच्र्ड़े दुश्मन वापिस पधारे
    ब्लोग विच प्या ज़रा जया सोडा, हुन फेर फटटन गे फुहारे

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ravi-

    cn yu blog in English as a gesture to people who do not know Hindi

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    you must be really a ’seedha aadmi’. Can’t you see that he is dropping visible hints that he is not a Pakistani and is as Indian as you and me.This is his way of showing ‘proof’ of his Indianness!

    Ravi Reply:

    You are a proper runt. You think every one is like you. Tighten your lungoat, your fundaments are limping out.

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy it was meant for Vijay and Vijay only. He got the message.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi, T U R D Tajendar and Engrich had a threesome
    Ravi definately thought, T U R D looked winsome

    Engrich u too are ISI fundoo, Ravi cooed
    Rest of the blogmates– just booed :)

    Give me my two ranis, Engrich and Tajendar
    Ravi, cried and cried
    But Balwinder gave him a kick
    And ravi’s brain just died !!!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    CLASSIC LINE.

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    Worth dorahing

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dole holder Ravi had a plan,
    How to fool the UK government
    And get some extra jam

    I’ll work for the ISI, Ravi planned
    Truth, morality and India
    Let it be Damned

    He joined T U R D Tajendar
    roped in Engrich
    The plan was to spread fundmantalism
    And somehow get rich !

    On the internet,
    they bumped into VijayKumar
    who needed a story plot
    The THREE FUNDOOS,
    The book is now called !!
    :) :) Ha ha ha

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Welcome back and ncie to know that everything is fine.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thx MOhan !

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thx Mohan for your contribution on Shiv Sena. I read it today and felt that the Sena has done a lot of damage to spread regional feelings. Did not know that it was supported by the COngress once…

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ MOhan

    Ur Oncern was heartening! Even though we just interact thru the net.. I know I have good friends….

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pakistani definition : Please note that the word can be used to define anyone who is a fraud, a criminal, a thug and deceitful. Just as USA now claims to be finding out. Its someone who finds excuses for the entity born out of Jinnah’s communal hate and has gone on to commit genocide on minorities and then sanctified its criminal conduct in the constitution.

    The Pakistani exhibits many symptoms and like the stench of garbage, cannot be masked. The symptoms include searching the internet for any anit-India, anti-Hindu news item and then posting it. The Pakistanis break into a frenzied rapture when ever a news items appears where the victim happens to be a dalit. That news item then is posted whereever they can.
    You don’t have to be a Pakistani passport holder to be awarded that honor.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    well, looks like chinese are abandoning paks too. There was a news in the WSJ today taht

    ……well, it looks like chinese is dropping them too. Todays WSJ reports that the Chinese mining co China Kigho is backing offa @19 billion minig project citing safety of its employees… this is after Gilani toasted the chinese friendship “higher than the mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey ”

    (man, they know how to suck!)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well evil ultimately self-destructs.
    Thats a truth of nature and Pak is no exception.

    Regarding China-Pak relations, China looks upon Pak as a cheap,dumb dog on Chinese leash to bark at India, just like some Pakistanis do here.
    China is going to use this cheap , dumb dog in a way that benefits it.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Not worth replying. But you got the hint alright.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Your’s was’nt worth replying, mine too was a mere hint of the welcome that awaits you if you start with pseudo **** type of language.

    I will return fire. Guarenteed.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Welcome. enough of our mask, which is wearing thin now by everyday.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Just because you are someone’s sidekick (and I don’t care whose), you assume it applies to others.

    Morons anyone?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    If you think I am someone’s sidekick then you must be high on drugs…I never defend anyone..I have infact defended Shan many times when he was cornered for abuses..I believe in justice..If a moron like you need my protection, I’ll provide you.

    But you being a corrupt congressi can never behave like normal..Now go and take care of your ***** ravi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I may be high on drugs, what is it you?

    Ho, ho, ho….:”I never defend anyone” How true? Because anything or anyone tyou choose turns out to be indefensible.

    I will certainly “consider” you offer of protection. Happy?

    You repeated the last para some place else. Why? Ran out of vocabulary for your rants?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Now, one has to teach something very elementary to RajeevS, by way of an example.

    Suppose, a vegetarian is invited to a party, where non-vegetarian food is main fare. Naturally, this vegetarian gentleman refuses to eat the non-veg stuff – are the hosts supposed to take offence?

    You need to clear very thick cobwebs that have got lodged in your brain for clearheaded thinking and responses. As they say – cleanliness is next to godliness. Quick get some cleaner to do the job, before you let out more balderdash.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No Saudi King has ever laid a wreath at the Cenotaph either. All other dignitaries do.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-

    I would say it is a bad host; he should have had only vegetarian food if he knew the guest was vegetarian..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Exactly, we would have been bad hosts by not knowing what the King would like to do or what he would not like to. Moreover, it did not matter to our Government. They know how diplomacy and things works.

    Probably, someone somewhere (media or ….) made note that the visit to the Rajghat was not part of the functions to be attended by the King and decided it will be sensational news ( a scoop or whatever) and probably blew it out of proportions.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It looks like that there is a panic among many of the bloggers, with the advent of Engrich or whoever he may be and there are constant requests to Vinodji to ban him. Probably, his posts are causing extreme discomfort to these bloggers and who probably do not know how to counter or demolish his arguments (I am guessing). Wonder why they feel so threatened by his presence?

    Earlier, I had suggested (and I am not preaching), is to simply ignore his posts (as I do), then probably he would stop posting.

    As I understand, this blog now is under constant moderation, if he goes overboard the moderator would step-in. So why the panic?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Manohar

    I think the issue is the quantity of garbage. Engrich just does a cut and paste of some nonsensical ISI propoganda, which he probably does not understand as a low level operative. But it spoils the mood of the blog.

    In case somebody keeps throwing garbage inside your house time and again… would you not want the person ejected out?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Sanjay

    I know, you know better than that.

    Please do not stoop into the gutter.

    We already have quite a few cockroaches here, and do not need another one.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    I believe the issue is his (Tajender/Ram Avtar and whatever is this new incarnation) recycling of the same garbage plucked from Rupeenews, DalitVoice etc with Jews and Brahmins behind everything, be it Mogul rule or 9/11 or 11/26 or Jinnah or Gandhi or Doha Trade Round or women’s vote in KSA. . Zia Haq’s blog used to be very active with good points/counterpoints, I was a regular there; but many backed out. I have not visited that blog in months now.

    Vinod Sharma had blocked him out under the old blog format; but looks like he has come back under the new format.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi and Sanjay

    Who decides what is garbage and what is not? Who decides how much quantity of garbage is not acceptable? It does not matter as to the origin of that garbage. We, our gods and our icons are not so weak to fall on account one man’s ramblings.

    BTW, some of the posts from some of the other members here are disgusting and offensive too – garbage. Should we ban them too?

    Leave it to Vinod Sharma and the HT people to decide.

    If you ban him under his present alias, he will come back under a different alias. The previous ban on him does not seem to have worked, he is still around. How many times will you keep banning him?

    I am against all forms of bans. Just ignore him, do not respond to him, he will probably just wither away. or stand your ground and take him on the points he raises – the choice is left to the individual.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Dear Manohar
    Sorry having said goodbye, I feel compelled to come back and say a few things.

    As many have said here before, the actions of the Saudi royals can be unfriendly and backward, not only in India but even here in the UK. We should be proud that we do not behave like that when we go out.So at best we can grit our teeth and ignore them- lakhs ? of Indians work in the KSA and these remittances are important.

    Sorry, the analogy of a guest not eating non veg food just did not work. Muslims and Jews would not eat pork and I would never eat non veg- this is completely natural for us. However, for the Saudis to not visit Rajghat is boorish.

    Here in UK, the best private Saudi school was still teaching that Jews and kaffirs were pigs as recent as 2009 till caught by a sting operation. My Pakistani friend who went on a haj recently came back boiling with rage at the disciminatory attitudes of MOST saudis he met- whether at the airport or even at 5 star hotels when he went travelling after haj, even from the receptionists.

    My private patients from Saudi often display a contemptuous disregard for the evils of Wahabism that they willingly export around the world

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    and dont take this personal, Manohar, but maybe you also need to follow your own advice and ignore Rajeev. I think both of you have good contributions, but now it is becoming a tu tu main main.
    Peace

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    doctor before writing u must study the thing well.ruler of saudi arabia is wahabi.and wahabi dont go to any grave.tghey were about to demolish the grave of prophet mohammed.it is haram.jews are not kafir .marriage with their daughters is halal.christain and jews are like cousins.

    regarding rajghat ,if official diginatary dont go ,nobody will ever go there.this is statement of watchman of the site.

    dalit dont consider him as father of their nation,so christian and muslim and backward.brhmn killed him as street dog and distributed the sweet all over india.every year even now they distribute sweet.pls tell me which nation he is father.
    pls give me reference of sting operation.in christain schools also they dont allow non christians till 10th standard.in vidyabharti rss run school situation is same.

    regarding haj his observation may be right.pakistanis are also too naughty.most of them pray that,ae allah custom wallon kee aankh mein dhool jhoonk,mera saman pakda na jae.every illegal and wrong work they do.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    why not f.u.ck yr father

    engrich Reply:

    dont forget that no indian including hindus want to come back.ther get salry 5 times of india and every thing is subsdized.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy

    You responded in another thread below

    “Modi had sent a list of 3 ex-chief justices to the governor, none of whom the governor liked.

    He had called the opposition leader for consultation and consensus, but the LOP abstained from attending any of these meetings.

    The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional. She appointed Desai because Desai was very much liked by Teesta Setalvad. He has also the reputation of being a sympathiser of some of the virulently anti-Modi NGOs, which is why his appointment, ultra-virus as it is, is being opposed by Modi government.

    The fact that the MMS government is contemplating recall of the Lokayukta unofficially itself is proof that Modi is right in his constitutional position. ”

    —————-

    I knew you could not have done better than this. Full of lies, falsehoods, untruths (take you pick), but I will give you a chance.

    1) “The governor went over the head of the CM and consulted the attorney general of India, which was patently unconstitutional”

    Will you care to enlighten the rest, as to under which Government Rules and Laws or the Indian Penal Code, the Governor is not entitled to consult the Attorney General or for that matter anyone else? Or is there a law enacted by Modi for the Governor of Gujarat? “Thou shalt not consult the Attorney General or anyone else”

    2) You do not even know the name of the person who has been appointed. For your information – it Justice R A Mehta not some Mr. Desai. If you want spread canards and lies, try and make them more convincing, but then I must be expecting too much from you..

    Also the cat is out of the bag – Teesta Setvalvad liked the appointment and Justice Mehta is sympathiser of some anti-Modi NGOs. Since when Teesta Setalvad has become so powerful and influential that her opinion/approval is sought, before someone is appointed? Does being sympathiser of anti-Modi NGOs disqualify the person from being appointed Lokayukta? Can you quote the relevant Government Rules and Laws or the Indian Penal Code or the Gujarat Lokayukta Act, 1986 is support of your assertion.

    The other point you overlooking or more likely ignorant about is that there two other members of the selection committee – the Speaker of the Assembly and the Chief Justice of Gujarat High Court.

    These points are sufficient for me to throw your entire defence of Modi out of the window. Now all I have to do is to wait and see how many of your supposed “fans and chelas” come to your rescue on this.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mnaohar_T,

    from your above posts, it is clear that your knowledge about the way the constitution works in our country, is near about zero. Still, I will try to shine some light on your ignorance:

    I mentioned the name of the Lokayukta appintee as Desai instead of Mehta purely inadvertantly.

    About the governor’s powers to consult the attorney general of India, the state advocate general has argued in the HC that it was unconstitutional.

    Last year, the Modi government had given a written undertaking in the high court that the process of appointment of Lokayukta was underway.

    The governor herself admits that constitutionally as well as by conventions, the governor acts as per the advice of the council of ministers. And I quote the governor:

    “Although it is true that generally the Governor acts as per the aid and advice of the Council of Ministers headed by the Chief Minister, there might be a circumstance, where Governor could not remain mute spectator to the happenings in the state and is compelled to use discretion,”

    “The delays in appointment are because of the opposition and not because of us. They have been avoiding consultations on the appointment of Lokayukta,’’ government spokesman, Jaynarayan Vyas said.

    The governor has wrongly appropriated the function of the duly elected state government which is a major subversion of the Constitution. Article 163 of the Constitution is over and above Section 3 of the Lokayukta Act, 1986. The provision of any Act does not have a supremacy over provisions in the Constitution of India. According to Article 163 of the Constitution, the governor has to work on the aid and advice of the Council of Ministers.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi,

    very good, informative post. The Jews who had taken refuge in India for centuries and like the Parsees, who too had taken refuge in India, have been treated well by the local people, in Kerala and Maharashtra/Gujarat respectively. While the jews were fortunate to have a country as their homeland, the Parsees are not so fortunate. I also doubt very much they would migrate even if they had a homeland in Iran.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy-

    You are right–I do not thnik Parsees would migrate. This is their land. Unlike others, they did not plunder; made it better. Adorned it with jewels like IISc, TIFR, and Air India (which Nehru destroyed afterwards!)

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    only brhmns and jews plunder where ever they go.all others are peaceful people.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    You got it wrong – Nehru did not destroy Air India . In fact in spite of policies differences with J R D Tata, he was made the chairman at the time of nationalisation in 1953 and held that post right up to 1977/78, when Morarji Desai as the PM, removed him unceremoniously. No courtesies, no phone call, nothing. He just sent his replacement to Bombay – Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P C Lal (poor fellow. he was caught in an unsavoury situtation) with letter that Tata was being replaced by him.

    Until 1977/78, Air India was nation’s pride and envy of the world.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay Kumar,
    glad that you are back with a bang.

    For the last two days, fake Ravi and Tajender T.urd have been running riot with their 5000 rape stories, with able suppost and also solid defence by Manohar_T, who has displaced Prabhat and Mahesh as the chief defenders of pseudo secularism and fake democratic rights.

    your post is a fitting reposte to these fundoos.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    And you have been hemmed in with your Hindu Fundo stories.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    What about a poem on fake rape stories propogated by people who enact out their own fantasies thru these stories?

    I think the sorry spectacle of the UPA destroying itself thru chdmabaran and Pranab pulling waxch other’s chairs too reminds us of MOrarji desai, CHaran SIngh and Jagjivan ram fighting for one Kursi !! How history repeats itself !

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    But you have been purr purring in Shenoy’s lap for a very long time.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,
    You have a history of leaning on others..You do it with Shan, Manohar, Prabhat and whosoever comes on this forum…You are just like pakistan..a ***** willing to sleep with anyone for protection. You hide behind idiots like Manohar because you are exposed again and again by almost everyone.
    Manohar being corrupt moron has no other choice because he is allergic to word hindu..He thinks anyone opposing congress has to be a hindutvavadi…To me he is basically BIN-Paindi ka lota…A total a$$hole..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Earlier there was a discussion of whether Modi should have worn the cap offered to
    him or not. The person who offered him this cap later in any interview said that
    Modi had insulted Islam by not wearing the cap. Does the prestige if Islam
    lie in a mere skull cap ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan
    It was a profile in courage that Modi did not wear the skull cap. It shows the man will not do something just for doing it, however, whatever way the press portrays.

    Press should have respected that, instead of treating it like some criminal act or violating constitution.
    And all these coming from the same groups who will not allow govt to modify the syllabus of Madrasas, or will not support Visnavi to head Deoband..

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Self appointed lay preacher speaks with pseudo authority of a nincompoop.

    Ravi has never said anything anti about Hindu gods. However he has on a number of occasions pointed the total absence of logic in your pronouncements.

    A Dr you may be, Pontiff you certainly are not.

    You wish to reduce this blog to a self-congratulating club for Hindu Fundo’s.

    Think again.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar,

    Few days back you had said that Modi should appoligize for Gujarat riots as
    asking for forgiveness is divine. And now you have compared Saudi Kings
    refusal to visit Rajghat with a vegeterian gueast. In both instances you have compared the action of a leader with an individual. Any leader in private can
    do anything he wants but when he is in public he will act differently. If Modi
    had appoligized for the riots everyone would have said that he is admited his fault.
    And any leader visitng another nation should respect her traditions, sacred places etc. Recently before going to Bangladesh our PM – a strick vegeterian – said that
    he will try Hilsa a non veg traditional dish of Bangladesh .

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    Yes, I did say that with reasons thereof. Did I blast him for not doing so? No, Sir. Did I call him names? No, Sir. Only expressed what in my view would be the consequences either way.

    I do not see any connection between Modi’s apology that never was and Saudi King’s refusal to go to Rajghat. Can you connect the dots? BTW, see my reply to Dr. Mishra below.

    Again, what has Saudi King’s refusal has anything to do with our Prime Minister’s desire to partake sea food in Bangladesh, in spite of being a vegetarian? Again the connect dots please.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    The connection I was trying to make was that you were comparing
    a leader to a common individual. If a common person seeks sincere forgiveness for his mistakes/crimes that can be classified as divine but if a leader asks for forgiveness a different
    conclusion will be drawn and he will be called a criminal – he is already being called as such by many people – . Similary you were comparing Saudi King to a a guest in our house – a common individual – . Leaders and common man have a different role in a
    society.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    And regarding our PM trying their sea food IMO he was showing
    the respect for their traditional food which King of Saudi did not
    by refusing to visit a place which most of dignitaries do when
    they visit India.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar,

    Few days back you had said that Modi should appoligize for Gujarat riots as
    asking for forgiveness is divine. And now you have compared Saudi Kings
    refusal to visit Rajghat with a vegeterian gueast. In both instances you have compared the action of a leader with an individual. Any leader in private as an individual can
    do anything he wants but when he is in public he will act differently. If Modi
    had appoligized for the riots everyone would have said that he has admited his fault.
    And any leader visitng another nation should respect her traditions, sacred places etc. Recently before going to Bangladesh our PM – a strick vegeterian – said that
    he will try Hilsa a non veg traditional dish of Bangladesh Such should be an action of a leader.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pranab Mukerjea the FM of India states that Note on 2G was prepared by the officers of the Ministry and did not have his Approval. So what action is now proposed to be taken against that Dy Director of his Ministry who falsely stated that” Seen by the Finance Minister “. Which obviously means that the Minister has seen and not disagreed or objected to the contents therein.
    If Ministers start disowning official notings like this , government functioning can get seriously hampered as Officials shall not move till a positive affirmation or objection is noted by the Minister . So serving officers should better watch out … they can land up in serious trouble as it appears that Ministers nowadays are willing to sacrifice their moral courage to save their skins..
    The only remedy lies in SC intervening and asking for Personal Affidavits from all Officers who represented the different Ministries , PMO , former Cabinet Secretary and whose combined efforts resulted in the finalization of that Note.
    It appears that this Government is setting new standards every day in mistatements, falsification , misrepresentataion to hide its misdeeds.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen
    This is the way Indian Govt exercises power – “screw you people”..
    Not yet any clue on who did Delhi HC, Mumbai diamond street….
    Meanwhile US nails down Al Awlaki and his Pakistani sidekick in mountains of Yemen

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Gopi . The government is busy saving its own skin …the country can wait.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mishra and his poodle balwinder , this from wikipedia

    According to the Hebrew Bible, all Israelites were descended from Abraham, who was born in the Sumerian city of Ur, and migrated to Canaan (commonly known as the
    Land of Israel) with his family. Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide do indeed bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent, with only minor contribution from their host populations[15] (historically due to the taboo on intermarriage in Jewish tradition, the low number of converts to Judaism,

    As for Tay sachs disease ,limited reading mishra should know , Thallasaemis trait mutation in genes devolopes in people living in areas with High incidence of malaria . They are resistant to malaria , this is nature’s way of protecting the population being wiped out.the problem arises when two thallasemia trait people marry each other ,
    The children has 1in 4 chance of devoloping Full Blown Thalassemia.
    Similarly that Tay sach devolopes in one group does not invalidate anything ALSO JEWS USED TO HAVE A LOT OF INBREEDING. In fact the Book MISNAH is nothing but a primer in setting out the laws as WHO CAN HAVE SEX WITH WHOM
    Eg, UNCLE with his brother’s daughter etc.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Did the Bramhinical pack and the swabhimaaan up yours posterior brigade
    WATCH YESTERDAY , THE DOCUMENTARY IN NDTV TITLED
    “HUNGRY KYA.”
    Post script , it was about India 2011 NOT BENGAL FAMINE 1943
    GROVESENOR MARRIOT PUNJABIS hope you were able to digest your kulchaNaan
    and tarka Daal.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Coming back to the jist of this attack on Waziristan/Haquani blog..

    Chidambaram reported that we (India) know where Dawood is, but they (Pak) wouldnt allow us to get to him — something to this effect.
    I was at a loss. If RAW knew where he was, couldnt they pick him up (I know there are logistical issues; but doesnt CIA pick up “parties of interest”?)..If they cannot transport him, couldnt they just kill him? Are we signatories of some UN cr— that we cannot hunt and kill our enemies?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    IThe moron king (who has given voting rights to women to vote in 2015, lashed the woman driver for the offece of driving) should not have been invited by India Govt if they knew he would not visit Rajghat.

    But as long aas we are poor and our people have to be in Saudi arabia for a living, we will have to suffer these indignities.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    As I said, there are enough negatives there. The last heard, the King has pardoned the lady and there will be no lashes.

    Generally, people go where they can get best price for their talent.

    If we go by your plaint, then there will be hardly any diplomatic visits across the world. Indian leaders may not be welcome in many countries too, given our track on many fronts.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    That lady was sentenced to get 15 lashes for driving
    but the King pardoned her. She was not given the lashings.

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    jews had no land hence they were surviving on their mental capacities.but they have evil side as well they secret instigators of all mascares and wars in last 300 years.they hide among the masses like brhmns and do bad work.

    original name of netanyahu is attalla abdulrehman shoul,a sudani jew hiding among muslims with muslim name.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Coming back to Wasirstan, Haqquani–subject of this blog-

    Several terrorist connections with Pakistan revealed last week “got lost” in the coverage of US/Pak tension-

    5 or six Pakisatnis were arrested last week in Birmingham, UK for terrorist activities –all or most of them were trained in Pak terror camps.

    One **** (Samer Khan?) was killed in the drone attack on Al Awlaki. This 24 yr old Pakistani was Al Awlaki’s media man.

    Any action by US on Haquani network or on Pakistan is bound to create terrorist actions against us. Pakistan already may have Islamists here ready to trigger.

    Chidambaram’s complaint will be “they did not let us know”.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    I am sure you know, that every one knows, Pakistan has a terrorist problem. Each day that passes more and more proof emerges that terrorism is Pakistan’s official and often preferred policy.

    So when you do mention individual incident, then please can you clearly state what is the point that you wish to make.

    Everyone who participates in this blog gets the news, at about the same time as you do.

    So is the point you are trying to make here is that Mr Chidambaram is not reacting to emerging news in a way that you would want him to.

    What would you do, if you were in place of Chidambaram Let’s hear it, then we can react to it.

    Meanwhile, assume that every one even Pakistani’s themselves know terrorism is their main problem.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ravi-
    You are conveying a pristine view of Pakistan when you say “pakistais themselves know terrorism is their main problem”..not so.
    The latest Pew Poll, taken after bin Laden was killed”:
    -75 percent view India ufavorably
    -only 37 percent want army to go after terrorisst
    -oly 55 percent is afraid terrorists will take over
    -57 percent say india is a bigger threat than Pakistani taliban, al queda or any other terror groups…
    figure it out

    Indians aree in fools paradise if they think pakistanis are concerned abt internal terrorism !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Binoy

    This must be the third time that you have quoted this survey.

    I did not contradict its findings before, and I am not about to do it now.

    However, it is only a survey.

    The point I was making still stands. The Primeminister, as well as General Kayani have come on the TV and said that Pakistan has terrorist problem.

    What, I think you are trying to say is something entirely different.

    It is true that both the Pakistani Public, as well as Pakistani Gov do not consider LeT as a terrorist organisation. That is because LeT have an internal view and an external Agenda. For India it is a terrorist organisation because it targets India. Pak Military created it, so you can hardly expect them to declare it as a terrorist organisation.

    Similarly, the Pakistan Government and Public consider the Pakistan Taliban as Terrorists and the Afghanistan Taliban as not.

  • Ravi

    Well said my friend

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The rabid and vicious invectives used against the saudi king’s refusal to visit rajghat , only reveals How ignorant and pig headed “some” bloggers are.
    This is because Saudi beleives in a particular brand of islam , which says you only show respect to GOD. The same king will not show deference to the founder of Saudi Kingdom , Bin Aziz Saud, infact there are no massoluem in his honour.
    That doesn’t mean saudi king has shown disrespect , in fact he will probably give some small change to tune of 100 millions for Gandhi research centre.
    When the last saudi king died , his body was taken in the middle of nowhere in a desert , and buried. Nobody will be able to identify now where he is buried.
    NOT EVERYTHING IS BAD WITH WAHABIS.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan-

    does not mean anything other than Wahabis do not have mausoleums.
    Wahabis made a huge noise about Osama’s burial. Why did they create an uproar if the burial place is insignificant?

    And the way I understand it is that US did it in the sea because they did not want a”pilgrimage/inspirational place” for Jehadis to visit. So, may be in some situations, Wahabis may like a mausoleum!

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    You are plain wrong.

    No fuss was made by any Wahabi Cleric about Osama’s burial.

    Can you support with evidence the emphatic statement you make.

    The Saudi establishment, of which the Wahabi School is a part, were just as much against Osama, as the US.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ravi, you are absolutely true, If osama had a “kosher” wahabi burial in the deserts , then no one should be able to identify it.
    That does not invalidate the american severe anxiety , about his mutiliated body pictured and posted on the web. That web would have been the shrine

  • Anonymous

    @ Gopi

    Well I was moving around Himachal. The Photon connection was not e3xactly zipping. And this new blog format… is not exactly user friendly, moving in a vehicle… and scrolling up and down.

    But yes it was nice to read ur postings.

    PS Hve the rains stopped in Kerala? What are the temperature conditions like?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I too can see who is grinding which axe, hence my interventions are limited. I see no need to give importance to inanities.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Ravi, The jews from Manipur , who got the right to settle in Israel are a DODGY lot. Apparently some of their ritual is similar to the biblilical jews. Thus the assumption.There is not a great deal more to go about.
    There are some in Maharashtra who came 2000yrs ago, and some in Kerala. There were a sizable jewish population in Calcutta . I HAVE MET THREE PATIENTS IN LONDON ALL FROM CALCUTTA, where there still stands a synagogue and a Jewish girls school.. Though jews in India are not given due importance by the World congress of Jewry.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Among my personal friends is a lady who every couple of years or so, will visit Cochin Jewish Cemetery to tend to Jewish graves there as the remaining Jewish population is getting old and is not large enough to do that.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    jews wants shudras to do menial jobs.like britishers have taken indian labour to carribian countries.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Pankaj

    Yes I am back ! Like ur posting on Manto. I had read his stories— the translated ones in college hostel. One in Khushwatn SIngh’s collection and another transaltion by I hink K A Abbas…

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    vinodjee they want to balkanize whole world.want to make karachi like dubai.which i think they will succed.balochistan is full of minerals gas and oil.afghanistan has to be under control for free flow of oil and gas from muslim republics of central asia.
    iran has to be emusculated and controlled for flow of oil from kurdistan to haifa port of isreal.
    this they call NEW WORLD ORDER,this aim will achieved with sacrifice of millions of americans europeans christians and peopl from indian sucontinent.this is called democratic imperialism.

    loot of african wealth has already started with attack on libya.200000 has already been killed.they have one`more additional agenda there ,to finish tribalism and tribal societies.
    only those who wear jeans and eat macdonalds go to maals ,believe their media
    has the right to live.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi

    I think we should not go ga ga over the Pakistan’s judicial system, it is as bad as or worse than ours. In this case, the assassin did not run away and was proud of the misdeed he had committed, a la Godse.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    did the Ravi virus infect you? Going by the symptom, it certainly looks like it :)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) , :)

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    If you think so, be my guest.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Right now Islamic terrorists, Corrupts, Pakistan and Congress are on one side and rest of the India on the other side.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    ~ CONGRESS GESTAPO AT WORK !! DIGVINASH SINGH TARGETS BLOGGERS~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    THE Congress is now following the Nazi and Pakistani saga of hounding dissent through use of state police and CBI. Twitter and Facebook messages of people
    who do not agree with Digvijay have been used to file CASES against them. Police and Gestapo power is being used to destroy dissent and build up a Nazi saga.

    The whole story is being twisted to make it sound like hate mail !

    Read this in NDTV.

    New Delhi: Delhi Police have registered a case against 22 people for sending hate mails against Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh, who has alleged an attempt at tarnishing his image on social networking sites, police said on Friday.

    “After a month of probe, we registered a case yesterday (Thursday) under the Information Technology Act and initiated verification of the 22 people,” said a police officer.

    “We will give notices to various social networking websites to remove all the insulting contents and pictures,” said the officer.

    Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/22-booked-for-sending-hate-mails-against-digvijaya-singh-137819?pfrom=home-otherstories&cp

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    When I did not see your postings last few days I was thinking the same.

    CONGRESS GESTAPO AT WORK.

    ha ha .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Vinod Sharma

    Some months back you used the information provided by Amar SIngh and Digvijay Singh to write an expose which was used to attack the anti corruption movement.

    Today, Amar SIngh is running away from jail by using an ailment as an exxcuse. And Digvijay SIngh has even gone to the extent of filing fake cases against people who do not agree with him.

    Do you see both of them exposed now? Or would you agree with their stance?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vij

    Love to have you back.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    ~~ BOOK LAUNCH !! of the THREE FUNDOO ‘ S ~~~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    I was long searching for a story for a book. I think I have found it. Here is a precis’

    Dole holder Ravi had a plan,
    How to fool the UK government
    And get some extra jam

    I’ll work for the ISI, Ravi planned
    Truth, morality and India
    Let it be Damned

    He joined T U R D Tajendar
    roped in Engrich
    The plan was to spread fundmantalism
    And somehow get rich !

    On the internet,
    they bumped into VijayKumar
    who needed a story plot
    The THREE FUNDOOS,
    The book is now called !!
    :) :) Ha ha ha

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    विजय साहिब बा-तौर-ऐ सावधानी यह एक शेर पड़ लीजिये
    ———————————————————-
    रेखता के तुम ही उस्ताद नहीं हो “ग़ालिब”
    कहते हैं अगले ज़माने में कोई मीर भी था
    ————————————————————-

    हर एक आने का दोअनी से जवाब दें गे

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    bak rahan hoon junu mein kya kya main

    kuch na samjhe khuda kare koi

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    दो मुआ सांप.
    Do Muha Sanp (Binoy just for you)
    Two Faced Snake

    The snake charmer who frequented my childhood street, would often show a two faced snake. As children, not knowing any better, we accepted it as a fascinating aberration of nature.

    We now know, to fool any adventurous predator, some snakes have eyes like markings on their tail. In jungle these markings may have fooled a predator, in urban environment they fired up our over active imagination. We made ourselves believe that the snake could move both forwards and backwards, or vice a versa.

    The charmer’s commentary that accompanied the show, mentioned that such snakes were abundantly available in Nagpur (pun intended). Indeed it was rumoured that a veterinary surgeon was so good, that he was able to take two normal snakes and convert them into one do muha snake (दो मुआ सांप)

    Not so long ago, two snakes, both (आस्तीन का सांप ), One called Shenoy and the other Vijay, were conjoined into a single conjugating whole, the result was a self procreating दो मुआ सांप. The process finished with one funny flaw, it gave venom to one mouth and fangs to the other, thereby making both ends ineffective.

    A repeat of the process is planned over the next few days, one can already see TWO eager snakes, amorously weighing each other, with a man of NAGpur in their hand.

    I wish them luck
    Being a conjugating whole
    They no longer have a need to XXXK

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopiji,

    Yes this is a great verdict mainly because the judge refused to entertain
    the verses from Quran and Hadith which were put by defence lawyer in support of the killing.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar-

    I did not mean that Nehru literally destroyed Air India – the nationalization (done by Nehru) did it..JRD was running it profitably, why was the rush to nationalize as if it was the number one issue facing India? Nehru should have put govt money and started a new airline if he felt ashamed that the new nation did not have a state owned (???why??) flag carrier. (USA does not have, so also many other countries .. may be his awe of Britain must have made him to own Air India — I think British Airways was a UK govt owned entity at that time)

    Well, this blog is about Wazirstan, what should US do to control Haqqnis, and what will be the impact of all these..So, let us hold on to economics, sovereign vs individual entrepreneurship etc for another occasion.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I disagree with you. In 1953, there were 8 airline each with around 1, 2 or 3 aircraft at most.

    Tata Airlines, Indian National Airlines, Air Service Of India, Deccan Airways, Ambika Airways, Bharat Airways, Mistry Airways, Orient Airways

    After nationalisation – Air India and Indian Airlines (agree it was a bit of laggard).

    At least until 1977 and for some years after that, Air India was a really world class. Then the slide started and look where it today – in the pits.

    OK.We will close this topic here.
    ——————————————–

    Next post here will be about Wazirstan – whatever little I know.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    Air India was doing ok (not Great, though) ’til large order of aircrafts was stuffed down its throat sometime in (if I recall correctly , 2004). Your tracing of Air India’s current problems back to Nehru may be a tad too far fetched.
    Try analysing the purchases made by Air India, its merger attempts with Indian Airlines , giving up its profitable routes, less favourable route sharing agreements etc.
    Another thing, it is not just PSUs that make losses, even Private Enterprises can do terribly. In the same sector – DELTA Airlines had once filed for Bankruptcy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Not only Delta ,PAN AM also folded.Though I have to say AIR INDIA is unbeleivably bad ,particularly catering MANAGED BY TATA .
    is SINGAPORE AIRLINES a state enterprise , IT IS OUTSTANDING

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    A Note for those who were discussing Modi’s wearing of Skull Cap.
    A perfectly Onionesque moment would be when Modi wears the Skull Cap followed by his waving of hands with his palms exposed in full view of Camera, shouting and laughing hysterically – look all no more blood. The willing Mullahs performing chorus of “Waah Waah Modiji” in the background.
    p.s.: For those not in know “The Onion” (http://www.theonion.com/) happens to be a very popular American online Satire magazine. The word “Onionesque” here relates to Onion magazine.
    p.p.s.: Did we notice the arrest of Sanjeev Bhatt ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @mahesh, brilliant .By the way this is from Shan.
    On a different matter for you to ponder about.
    there was a documentary in NDTV yesterday titled “HUNGRY KYA”.
    It showed the dehumanising condition of rural poor particularly acute amongst TRIBALS of maharashtra , Orissa , MP ,for that matter every where in the deep recess of rural india.
    Now the tribals of maharashtra are all dalit and they have all converted to Buddhism. Now their diet was millet onion and chillie . Conseques are all there to see. rickety figures.
    Now why can’t govt take initiatives and teach team PIG FARMING(buddhist have no problem), one pig produces six litters , will eat human excrement , same with poultry , IF GOVT CAN SUBSIDISE ANIMAL FEED , and distribute IMAGINE THE CONSEQUENCES,High protein ,vitamin also IMMUNE TO VAGARIES OF NATURE.
    Your comment is eagerly awaited

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    shan

    I believe lots of money is allocated.. However, it is not targeted to groups or specific means/goals, no accountability etc.. Most of the money is stolen by bureaycrats.. However, ithink, there is a new right of info, RTA, which ahs caused transpaency even at a low level of govt with many villages chasing the phantom moey spent on them. so the gud news is that many villages have taken advantage and progressed..

    i m wondering abt maharashtra — it is a fairly well off state with better villages..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are right – the bureaucrats and the middlemen steal a major part of it.

    There is a ray of hope, with AADHAR system (Nandan Nilekani’s project), the money is to be transferred directly to the beneficiary’s bank account. We have to see how it works on the ground. It will take sometime to be really effective. Lot of spade work needs to be still done.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The NGOs and leftists are fighting the Aadhar system. They do not want India to progress!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza

    There are too many people/interests groups who want to grind their own axes and to protect their own turfs. That is the tragedy.

    I only hope there are fewer bottlenecks and the scheme takes off as intended.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    Remember Rajiv Gandhi, the then Gen. Secretary of the congress party said, “the poor man gets only 15 paise out of every rupee the government spends on him, the rest of the money goes into our pockets”.

    The so called panacea for all ills, Nandan Nilekini’s UID, is in immediate danger of getting starved of funds, because Pranab Mukherji has refused to fund the project in the manner Nilekini wants.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,
    Couple of things .
    While there has been a conversion to Buddhism – it has been more among Scheduled Castes and less so in Scheduled Tribes. Socially speaking , Dalits and Tribals are different groups – though both belonging to the underclasses. As much so that even today Caste and tribal origin are good enough social markers in rural India for economically vulnerable groups.
    Consequently , one would expect social resistance to adaptation of Pork. Another aspect that needs to be investigated is natual and economic sustainability of subsidised Animal Feed.
    That said, my bias still tilts towards improving the conditions of Farming classes – especially the smaller land owners – with well designed economic measures such as well regulated finance availability, crop insurances.
    On a related Note – a recent article by P. Sainath in Counterpunch points out migration of farming classes away from farming as a consequence of economic un-certainity.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Did we notice the arrest of Sanjeev Bhatt”?

    What else were you expecting?

    Modi has lot to hide.

    No Lokayukta for 8 years and opposing when one appointed.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    What else you expect manohar. This central mole, challenging state authority and roaming Ahamdabad with expanded chest?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    A note by middle level finance ministry clearly pointing Chidambaram role in 2G scam, is of no consequence to Congressis but utterance by an IPS officers who is working with Congress against BJP, are gospel..

    These congressis are not only financially corrupt but morally too.

    Ravi Reply:

    True colours are revealing themselves. It was always a matter of time.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jab dil mein nahin hai khoT to phir Modi kyoon dartaa hai.

    That too from one IPS officer. Very “brave” indeed of Modi.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    this Bhat is a confirmed custodial killer. He slept for 9 years, forgot all about having been present in Modi’s house on 27th Feb., 2002 and when he suddenly wakes up Rip Wan Winkle like in 2011, he finds himself metamorphosed into a fake whistle blower! And under Teesta’s able guidance and with solid support from the congress, he forces his driver to give a false affidavit. His demand to be interviewed was rejected by the SIT, his own affidavit to the supreme court was thrown out unread, even unseen, but the congress screams he is a whisle blower!!!!!!!!!!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    The arrest seems to be legal. (though connections make suspicious). I do not think Modi is involved in this because it will be too stupid of him if he did, especially with his national ambitions

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza

    I think you are being naive. Modi also holds the Home portfolio and an arrest of an IPS officer cannot be without that approval from the top.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ramlila ground attack on Baba Ramdev and his followers at midnight was a police decision but
    Bhatt arrest is Modi’s decision ….. ?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Come on, Mohan. Point out one post of mine where I have said you imply about Ramdev’s arrest.

    You may buy Modi’s version and not Congress’ version. I do not buy either.

  • AshishC

    यष्मिन देशे यदाचारः

    Gandhi would be appalled at many things in today’s India; but, that is not germane to the issue.
    No one was asking him to go and prostate himself at the Samadhi (as an aside, I have lived in Delhi, almost 35 years now, and am yet to see Rajghat). He would have known that it is the done thing to visit the Samadhi, he would have done so, to please his hosts, signed the visitors’ book and be gone.
    If someday I am the President of India (see, I do not want a tough job!), and am visiting Saudi Arabia, should I insist that the King should bathe himself in Ganga Jal before shaking hands with me?
    Whether the King can afford to throw millions of dollars at us, is again immaterial.
    The king chose to be constrained within the straitjackets of his religion; he forgot his other identities- that being a human being, an ambassador for his country, a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    Good points, but not good enough. Largely because they are not logical.

    One would not expect the Pope to visit the Rajghat either.

    Many other heads of state, visit the Rajghat not because of any concern for state protocol, but because of their personal love for the Mahatma.

    Did the Saudi Royal go to the Taj Mahal. I will take a bet that he did not. Yet others have.

    Besides being the King the Saudi Royal is the head of Islam and the keeper of its tradition.

    He did attend the 26th January Parade. So any slighting/insult we feel is contrived and was not intended by our guest.

    I have mentioned before, that when he visited Britain, he did not go to the Cenotaph, which a lot of the other heads of state do go.

    I think all this noise, is little more than the Hindu Right seeing an opportunity to create a Political fuss over absolutely nothing.

    Yet another anti Muslim agitation to add to the drip drip strategy of othering.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Hi Ravi,
    please read my resp to Manohar above.
    A state visit is about atmospherics. Should only the host worry about it? Since the Saudi King was visiting, he obviously felt his country would gain from him being personally here. I still think he -even if not buttressing- did not do anything to dispel the stereotypes.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I am sorry I do not buy it.

    He did attend the 26th January Parade. So what if he did not go to the Rajghat.

    Have we as a nation reached such level of inferiority complex that we look for such gestures.

    As I said this storm is fomented only by the Hindu Right Jesters , for their own local agenda.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Again very very poor knowledge of wahabi islam. You can pat on by back , gently unruggle my hair in jest , BUT YOU CANNOT SQUEEZE MY BALLS. To saudi wahabis visiting samadhi is just such an act . It is against the basic tenets of their beleif . Some of their adherents recently THRASHED(yes you are reading it correct) the grave in saudi, of guess who ……
    yes the one referred to as PBUH, because the SHIAS of iran were using it as a shrine, and WAILING

    Anonymous Reply:

    Done thing. Huh!
    ————

    “The king chose to be constrained within the straitjackets of his religion; he forgot his other identities- that being a human being, an ambassador for his country, a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on”.

    If he has forgotten his other identities, what can anyone do about it? That is way it is. No big deal, as I see it.
    ———-
    “a standard against which other Muslims and Saudis will be judged and so on”.

    If you think so, that would be a mistake. You cannot put labels on others merely by association (whatever the link standard). Did not expect this line of reasoning from you.

    I can open Pandora’s box (I will not, even if you insist), if we take this argument further. I hope you know what I am talking about.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Manohar,
    Look, let me make it plain that I care two hoots about visiting Rajghat; I have NEVER done so myself.
    I will not label- but, the king, especially because he is representing his country could have handled this a little more tactfully. Or, maybe he was not to blame ; the press management was.
    I have to confess; I read about the “controversy” here- and, I assumed that the official reason given out was that the King does not visit mausoleums, an act which his religion forbids.
    While I would not have much to say about that, I would have applauded if he made a gesture towards breaking the stereotypical image of an Muslim Arab King. After all, a visit is all about gestures. Otherwise, in these days of video-conferencing and email, who would need to meet?
    The king, IMO did not hurt his image; but did not enhance it either.

    Did he hurt me? Did he insult us? Nope.

    Having got that out of the way, I am honestly puzzled why you would feel the need to “open the Pandora’s box”- whatever be it, in the context of our discussions. Go ahead; you are surely not waiting for an invitation?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gesture Diplomacy

    The presenting of Skull Cap to Modi was a gesture, as was his refusing to wear it.

    One gesture, two people, one labelled as a hero for refusing and the other made a villian for presenting it.

    LOL

    AshishC Reply:

    Laugh; but, damned if I knew who/ what you are laughing at/ for.
    Did I call Modi a hero for refusing to wear the cap? Or, the person offering a villain?
    The only post I have made on the l’affaire chapeau says nothing of that sort.

    Ravi Reply:

    For sure, you have not.

    Others here have.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    “The king, IMO did not hurt his image; but did not enhance it either.

    Did he hurt me? Did he insult us? Nope”.

    That why go into a tizzy?

    Leave it to me, as to when and in what context I should open the Pandora’s box.

    Anonymous Reply:

    looks like the member of the pack is rattled.it is not a question of Jasmin Deshe Jadacharo .
    In UK revealing a HUGE CHUNK of cleavage by the womenfolks in social gathering is part of their dress code. I dont think Mrs A.C will be too pleased if such compulsion were made to bear on her.THE POINT IS HAS THE SAUDI KING DONE THIS ONLY IN INDIA, THEY DONT EVEN BOW TO THE CEMEMTRY OF FALLEN SOLDIERS.
    To insist that a visit to Rajghat is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE form of courtsey and civility smacks of TOGADIA INSISTING ON GENETIC TEST FOR MUSLIMS TO PROVE THEIR INDIAN STOCK

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pakistani army has conditioned its people as to who its perceived enemies are (vs real enemies).
    The reason for non-action against Haqquani etc is quite evident from the Pew Poll results Hegde referenced to. 57% Pakistanis believe India is a bigger threat than terrorists; 75% distrust Indians, and only 35% want army to tackle terrorists..

    That means we may worry about terrorism there. They do not care at all..Their focus is India..They protect Haqquani etc to use against India…period.

    Indians better be careful and be demanding of their leaders, and if need be throw the leaders away and try new leadership.. for Paksitanis in their desperation, will fulfill what Jinnah said 65 years ago. he said in 1946 either India be divided or India be destroyed. he got India divided; and now his followers will fulfill his other alternative of destruction.

    Let us not be buddy/buddy and sympathetic; they really believe in harming us, rather than worrying about how terrorism is harming them..

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Indians should start from India itself and then go forward finishing this carbuncle, that is pakistani Jihadist. many symathisers here masquerading as liberals with fake names.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    :) . True colours revealed at last.

    Once a Jan Sanghi, always a Jan Sanghi.

    Looking forward to next week, when you are a bit less distracted and are able to string a coherent sentence.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    So, what is wrong being a Jan Sanghi?

    Ravi Reply:

    Nothing Gopi.

    Just making sure that I know what kind of a political beast one is dealing with.

    It helps putting comments in political context

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    when a fake satsanghi spills his jihadi poison here that is wrong.

    Ravi Reply:

    You will not know a satsang if you lived in Beas. The only Sangh you know is the one that wears Kahki Nikkar, Kali Topi and gives a half mast salute to any one with a walrus Moustache.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Hey Ravi;
    What is so bad about being Sanghi? They are at least nationalist patriot unlike Leegies, who pretend to be liberal but most communal people on the face of this earth.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    There is nothing wrong with being a Sanghi.

    If you do not mind.

    1. Confusing Hindutava with Hinduism.

    2. Being associated with a known Terrorist organisation.

    3. Regress India into a medieval imaginary Ram Rajya, and a mono culture, achieved via a genocide.

    4. Belving that man is born unequal and that Brahmins are better than the rest.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Where from you learned the wisdom quoted by you above.
    No body preaches in sangh that Hinduism and hindutva are same.
    What terrorist organization you are referring to?
    Like so many others, confusing Ram Rajya, said by Gandhi, as an effort to bring India back to medieval time? ask your friends here, whether they are one and same thing. I think, except for couple of people, others will disagree with you on your definition of Ramrajya.
    Where from you got this pearl that brahmins are better than rest? sound so much like thinking of Tajinder/ Ram autar.

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    To acquire this wisdom. I took off my Saffron Coloured galsses, and took a left turn.

    I think you need to read the RSS literature a bit more critically and peneteratively.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    They have always “claimed” to speak for 80 crores Hindus, when the support base is most 20%. Who gave them the right to speak on my behalf? Certainly not me.

    Ravi is right. You need to read their literature and the speeches of the key leaders down the years critically. They wish to establish Hindu Rashtra (ancient and backward looking, with bigotry and intolerance holding sway).

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    you have hit the nail on the jihadi head.
    In the absence of the proxy and during the self-imposed silence of the big cat, small mice like Manohar is solidly defending the jihadis here.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So long you are there to call every one who does not agree with you – a Jihadi.

    We know you have read this morning NAG report and you are ready to serve your Bhagwa Master

    Anonymous Reply:

    I don’t call everybody a jihadi You are the only jihadi on this blog, besides, of course Ram Auter. The others like Manohar are only your foot soldiers.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy

    Mera Qasoor Kyaa Hai? Why am I not being “labeled” as a jihadi too?

    Ravi Reply:

    He is hoping to recruit you. Whilst I am a lost cause

    Anonymous Reply:

    The invitation must be in the mail. Is it?

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I hope this does not come across as me patronising you, but I am sure you are able to work out as to what is going on here.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course, I know about the the shenanigans.here. My ealier comment was as you guessed a tongue-in-cheek.

    Anonymous Reply:

    No you are NOT a jihadi, but you certainly support the jihadis, fake Ravi and Tajender T.urd.

    Ravi Reply:

    Jagat Behnoi Ji.

    Like you I am very selective. I do not call every one a Sanghi. Such choice abuse is reserved for Kali Topi wearers like you and your chamcha’s.

    Manohar can slap you harder than I can and for that I am greatful to him.

    Watching you squirm is a delight to behold.

    Squirm you little worm, squirm

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    That was an invitation for you to join the BVS gang.

    I thought you were already there.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi-
    There will surely be blow-back from Pakistan. I tend to agree that they are not going after Haqquani network because they want to use it against India.
    Al-Awlaki’s murder will also result the organized and free lancing Islamists going after US and its friends.

    I was reading about Samir Khan, the 25 yr old Pakistani American jehadi blogger/publisher who was also killed in Yemen. He is the son of a mid level exec. His parents knew that he was having weird ideas when he was in junior high school; but instead of sending him to counselling, they sent him to a series of Imams!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Rajiv, Rajeev,

    US is asking Pak, “hamein Haqqani de ”
    Pak replies, “pehle, bheek ka cheque aane de”

    for driving, a Saudi woman is to be lashed
    for misspelling Quran, a Pak boy is to be bashed

    Pak has unleashed on US the Hina factor
    and unfortunately for US, Pak is the TINA factor

    The Saudi king refuses to visit Gandhi’s mausoleum
    He may be boorish, but we value his petroleum.

    Pak is in cahoots with Haqqani, says Admiral Mullen
    This has made Gilani, Zardari and Kayani very sullen

    They have demanded from an unconditional apology
    But the US says, ‘have a re-look at your anthropology’.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan,
    You are as usual using abuses to sound correct. I have proved you wrong on many occasion..Here is one more. There is tomb of Mohammad in Medina which is revered by every muslim on this earth including Saudi king. Unofficially Allah seems to be an aide of Mohammad if you read from neutral sources. If they can show respect to Mohammad then why not Gandhi.

    You should also know that Indian being very very sensitive of Saudi religious fundamentalism always sends a muslim ambassador to that country.

    Can you explain why in this modern age Mecca is forbidden for non-muslims? Now come up with some abuse and play on the tunes of Jehadi Ravi and his corrupt chamchas.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I don’t care for Corrupts like you..so go ahead and talk all BS..Because ultimately you and Ravi are all about muslim appeasement…and justifying all their moronic deeds.

    You are a sidekick of Jehadi Ravi…There is no doubt.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Maan naa maan, tu meraa mehmaan.

    Who the hell had asked you to whether you care for me or not and who the hell asked to you to announce it to the world?

    Who cares whether you have doubts or otherwise. Be happy with you sureties, I do not give damn. Now go take a walk.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    1) before blaming Rajiv Gandhi for 1984, blame Modi first for 2002
    2) before blaming agrressive muslims for anything, blame hindus first for something.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Thanks for letting us know that you can parrot other people lines. Keep it up.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It is part of protocol for all visiting foreign head of states to visit Rajghat…I am surprised that congressis (now dalals) are not aware of this.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Anymore moronic declarations?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    There is no such protocol.

    This is nothing more and nothing less than political opportunism of the most crass kind

    It may have been a common practice during the early years after the Independence to pay reverence to a Great Man, who changed the map of the world.

    However, one can question its relevance today.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jihadi,

    you are wrong here, as elsewhere. It is Jinnah, who changed the map of India, not Mahatma Gandhi.

    Ravi Reply:

    Crypto Fascist and Saffron Terrorist.

    But of course you are utterly simplistic, a simpleton and totally wrong.

    Jinnah alone did not change anything, not even your mind. Ask Jawant and Advani.

    Gandhi changed the world we live in, and your friend and Guru, Godse changed his life span.

    Do continue Jagat Behnoi Ji, you bring the best out of me

    Anonymous Reply:

    For Indians, it is only Jinnah who changed the map of India. For Pakistanis Gandhi changed nothing. That includes you and Tajender the T.urd.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shenoy Sahab;
    Yeh :Jagat Baap: has only one agenda, to defend Jihadis and Jinnah. Period. No contribution to this blog of any thing worthwhile. Look at the way, this brazen person defending Tajender??

    Ravi Reply:

    Well well the Jagat Poodle puts a strain on the leash.

    Well you are so blinded by the Sanghi propaganda that you would not know if truth ran over you and killed you.

    That is because you still think Balraj Madhok should have been the PM.

    Well I am glad that he was not.

    Pankaj, let me remind you of two facts before you start something you will NOT Win.

    1. I am an Orphan.

    2. I enjoy a scrap.

    So welcome to the scrum, you may land one blow more than I do. But you will feel my blows, too.

    The Choice is entirely yours.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ravi;
    I am game.

    Ravi Reply:

    Game is what you will get.

    That I can guarentee.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    So let us begin.

    Ravi Reply:

    Oh I thought we already had.

    You, to me, seem to have started a while ago. You dithered a bit, but then fell rightwards.

    engrich Reply:

    first call for partition came from lala lajpat rai.indian brhmnst fulfilled his dream.jinnah was advocate of indian shias.nehru wanted to become pm to enjoy life and closenes with zoinist moutbatten and his wife.if he knew that jinnah will die so soon he might have waited.without majority approval india would not have divided.muslims were weak.moreover creation of pakistan was a great blow to the muslim interest of india.

  • Anonymous

    Manohar_T (Shan will call your T tatti…but I won’t),
    If you think I am someone’s sidekick then you must be high on drugs…I never defend anyone..I have infact defended Shan many times when he was cornered for abuses..I believe in justice..If a moron like you need my protection, I’ll provide you.

    But you being a corrupt congressi can never behave like normal..Now go and take care of your ***** ravi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    No one asked you for clarifications, so there was no need to rant.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    He is a Blecher.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi,
    You have a history of leaning on others..You do it with Vinod, Tajender, Shan, Manohar, Prabhat and whosoever comes on this forum…Always begging for support like a roadside prostitute. You are just like pakistan..a ***** willing to sleep with anyone for protection. You hide behind idiots like Manohar because you are exposed again and again by almost everyone.
    Manohar being corrupt moron has no other choice because he is allergic to word hindu..He thinks anyone opposing congress has to be a hindutvavadi…To me he is basically BIN-Paindi ka lota…A total a$$hole..

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You are confusing me with some one whom you love dearly.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Debate karne ke liye to kuchh dum to hai nahin and naa koi material, to kyaa karen – chalo gaali-galoch karte hain? Bahoot khoob, Rajeev. Keep up your ranting – this one seems to be an express one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    This is for terrorist Ravi and his customer..India still has good muslims who don’t make excuses for vile Saudi king..

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278508
    Those City Ravanas
    A unique Ramlila, organised and acted out by Muslims, won’t be held this year
    NAMRATA JOSHI

    The Ramlila at Baxi Ka Talaab in Lucknow has seen Ram, Sita and others played by Muslims
    This year, for the first time in 39 years, the BKT Ramlila is unlikely to be held
    Rising costs, reorganisation of villages and local politics has stalled this model of harmony
    The BKT Ramlila had taken place without incident even in the year of the Babri demolition
    ***

    Sarvar and Salman Raza, students of commerce at Lucknow’s Shia PG College, have significantly disparate aims. Sarvar wants to join the army; Salman dreams of becoming a film star, although he hastens to clarify that his idol isn’t his Bollywood namesake but Ranbir Kapoor. For now, however, what’s working up the two brothers is not the rosy future they dream of but the disquieting present: a unique 39-year-old Ramlila in Lucknow in which Sarvar and Salman have played Ram and Lakshman for four years may not take place this year. “It’s heartbreaking to think a slice of our history may end,” says Sarvar. And Salman, “It hurts to know we might lose a vital part of us.”

    What they are talking about is the Baxi Ka Talaab Ki Ramlila, also known as the BKT Ramlila, unique for the leading role played by the Muslim community in organising, staging and enacting it. It takes its name from its historic venue on the outskirts of Lucknow, and is organised for three days during a Dussehra mela. Unlike other Ramlilas, it starts with a Shiv Ki Baraat on Dussehra, when other Ramlilas conclude. Muslims are on the organising committee. The main roles—Ram, Lakshman, Sita etc—are played by young Muslim men, all amateurs. Mohammed Shabbir Khan has been the director for 25 years, doubling up for the role of Dashrath too. Ravan has been played for over 20 years by Mohammed Naseem Khan. Indeed, there are other pan-religion Ramlilas (see box), but this one is unique in that its initiators and major drivers are Muslim, even as Hindus too take on roles in it. Hakim Raza Shadaab, an organiser, remembers a year when Ramzan coincided with Dussehra. The Ravan vadh episode was stopped midway, the mike was switched off and the fasting Muslim actors performed iftaar on stage as the audience waited. “They kept their costumes on, but put on skullcaps instead of mukuts during iftaar,” says Ashid Ali, an organiser. After this, the Ramlila continued!

    Unfortunately this year, inflation and insidious local politics have sprung up like Ravan’s heads and seem set to bring the curtains down on this unsung celebration of harmony and unity. We meet the core organising team 10 days before Dussehra at Baxi Ka Talaab. The area is teeming with grazing cattle. Mosquitoes buzz in stagnant pools. There’s a stage being erected, but it’s for a Mata ka Jagrata, nightlong prayers for Durga, not for the Ramlila. We encounter despondent faces, bereft of excitement, lost in uneasy resignation. “We used to start months in advance, booking bands, elephants and camels for the procession,” says Shadaab. “It’s too late now.”

    So what has gone wrong? The Ramlila faced its first big blow last year when the Hindu-dominated Rudahi and Muslim-dominated Bargadi villages (where the Ramlila originated) along with 12 others were merged with the new BKT town area. With gram panchayats being replaced by a nagar panchayat, the independence to organise the Ramlila locally has gone. Administrative whims have also played a role: last year, the BSP-ruled state government decided to stage its own Ramlila, inviting professionals from Mathura. The local version paled in comparison. “The sanctity of the original was lost,” says Videsh Pal Yadav, who chaired the BKT Ramlila committee from 1991 to 2010. Nirmal Chander, who has made a documentary on the BKT tradition, called Sab Lila Hai, says, “That Ramlila was by outsiders; it was like taking something away from local artistes.” This year, too, the government is organising a huge five-day Ramlila here.

    Nakul Dubey, the local MLA and minister for urban development, did promise to support the BKT Ramlila when he attended it last year, but the organising committee isn’t impressed. “Last year, they didn’t provide water, not even home guards,” says Ashid Ali. Expenses were met with donations from shopkeepers of the local weekly market, but Yadav says, “The market now patronises the bigger, sarkari Ramlila.” The organisers have given up, not sure about raising the Rs 5 lakh needed to conduct the Ramlila. “We only want to continue with this honourable tradition, but they think we are rebelling against the administration and the new Ramlila committee,” says Yadav.

    The foundation for the BKT Ramlila was laid by Dr Muzaffar Hussain and the then gram pradhan of Rudahi, Maikulal Yadav. No professional actors were hired and that tradition still continues, with untrained young Muslim men playing the key roles. “It’s been a way of nurturing local talent,” says Shadaab. The Ramlila has always attracted huge crowds—over 50,000 people come to watch from nearby towns and villages and have made it an abiding symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity. “It’s an example of harmony and secularism,” says Mohas Das of Mohan Kala Kendra, the town’s oldest and largest costume supplier. “Such practices are more effective in fostering peace than political speeches. It will be shameful for Lucknow to lose such a tradition.”

    The organisers are now nursing fond memories of what they had come to love. “The Muslims felt lucky and privileged to participate in the programme,” says Noor Ahmad, who has been involved with the Ramlila from the start. Says Ainul Hussain, a local resident, “Both communities accepted the Ramlila with heart and soul.” Chander speaks of what the tradition had come to signify: “This place is just 120 km from Ayodhya, but the Babri Masjid demolition didn’t affect the Ramlila here.” He hopes the disruption is temporary, and like other organisers, hopes that media reports will bring support and change the fortunes of the BKT Ramlila. “We hope,” say Sarvar and Salman, almost in unison, “this halt is just a comma and not a full stop.”

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    heart warming

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Your self imposed banvas, did not last very long.

    I imagine what prompted such a near fatal reaction, was that us Indians may not drool over, your pearls of home spun wisdom, as some Pakistani’s do in Pakistani blogs. Perhaps you wanted to spend some more time with them.

    I notice you are here appreciating a long cut and paste of some thing that has been obvious for 100’s of years. BTW the DCM Ramlila had a Muslim play Sita since early 1950’s. This is no news.

    Is one to understand that all such cut and pastes that inspire your approval are OK, whilst others inspire you to sign on to a petition demanding his expulsion.

    I wonder why??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi
    What are you talking about?

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mirza

    That was addressed to Dr Mishra, I am sure he understood what I meant.

    engrich Reply:

    dr and rajeev ,

    ramlila was initiated by nawab wazid ali of lucknow from baradari.it is under his rule that ayodhya became vibrant municipality.it is he who popularize lord rama in ruler india.indian fascist used this popularity to make blood bath.holy people of ayodhya kicked them out.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    interesting. Did Deoband issue a fatwa?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinod Ji

    There have been some petitions submitted to you with regards to banning an individual. The petitioners to the last person are dyed saffron Hindu Fundo’s who would like to press gang this blog into service of their one sided rancid hard line agenda.

    History suggests that you may be seriously considering banning and individual.

    I have previously advised you against a ban and will once again do so. However, if we are on that page, then I suggests that you have a look at the posts made by your favourite “Belcher”.

    “Once a belcher, always a belcher”, was a diamond put down.

    This belchers posts are baseless, full of lies, and he attacks other people based entirely upon imaginary precepts.

    आप ही जाना उधर और आप ही हैरान होना

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev
    Lucknow was always different. It has a storied history of Gharanas, of Muslim musicians worshipping goddess Saraswathi etc.
    If we were like USA, the Parks and Recreation Dept will have budget to preserve functions like the joint Ramlila, build a historical museum etc.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Ajay Kohli

    I felt the heat that came with this well worn cliché.

    When I say Saudi, I mean the establishment. No one cares about what the Saudi Public thinks.

    As for me disagreeing with those who do not share my world view? What do you do. Do you disagree with people who share your world view. You must be unique.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    rajeev and manohar, pl do lay off each other. Both make interesting contributions.

    Rajeev, I am with you on the thoroughly unpleasant aspects of Saudi culture, royalty and wahabism. BUT THE ONLY THING I ASK is that my Indian brothers and sisters, indeed all workers, are treated humanely.

    I have said before that Saud king not visiting Rajghat is boorish, but would not make an issue out of it. Time magazine, in its millenial poll across 150 countries in 2000, to find the person of the last century, came up with 1. Mahatma 2. Einstein

    I do not, even for one millisecond, worry about not being able to enter Mecca. I am proud that the Swaminarayan temple in Delhi and London allows everyone, as does the Dargah at Ajmer which I have visited.

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    maybe Saud’s son or grandson will read that poll and world history and become civilised enough to visit Rajghat, we wait for that moment.

    Rajeev, you are the proud descendent of a civilisation that is on the ascendance. Savour the moment and enjoy the ride, do not look elsewhere and spoil your mood

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Saudi Arabia will go its primitive ways when the oil runs out or Chinese through their ingenuity and state orders run 80% of their energy needs on reusable sources.

    Come to think of it — “go its primitive way” is an oxymoron..They are primitive now!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mirza,

    “” Come to think of it — “go its primitive way” is an oxymoron..They are primitive now “”

    Nice one.

    engrich Reply:

    ignorance is bliss they have 2 universities in first 200 in world.india has none.they have very advance manufacturing industries which is challenging europe.
    it took me 4 hrs to reach ghaziabad which is 32 kilometer from delhi.their u can drive at 150 anywhere in the country.those who cannot do anything condemn others.

    engrich Reply:

    now ghandhi is bhagwan of indian fascists though they killed him 60 years ago.there is nothing like civilized or uncivilized.u have to care the sentiments of guest.which our goverment did.if saudis take pratibha patil on tour to cow slaughtering centres how she will feel.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    With all due respects to you. ask the other side – the one who started it all. Point out one post, where I have started it.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I believe that Dr Mishra does not recognise his side as a side.

    His view is that he and others like him are telling the truth.

    People like you and I needlessly come here to besmirch the reputation of our beloved country.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    Time magazine, in its poll across 150 countries in 2000, to find the person of the last century, came up with 1. Mahatma 2. Einstein

    Possibly a typo by you – the correct order 1. Einstein 2. Mahatma
    Not that it matters.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    No Manohar;
    Mahatma has a precedence over Einstein, here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    I was not referring to the order here in India, but the rankings in the poll itself. AFAIK, Einstein was number 1, followed by the Mahatma. And I said – it did not matter.

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    How would you define humanely, in Saudi context?

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Vinod Ji

    There have been some petitions submitted to you with regards to banning an individual. The petitioners, to the last person are dyed saffron Hindu Fundo’s who would like to press gang this blog into the service of their one sided rancid hard line Hinduatva agenda.

    History suggests that you may be seriously considering banning this individual.

    I have previously advised you against a ban and will once again do so. However, if we are on that page, then I suggests that you have a look at the posts made by your favourite “Belcher”.

    “Once a belcher, always a belcher”, was a diamond put down.

    This belcher’s posts are baseless, full of lies, and he attacks other people based entirely upon imaginary precepts.

    आप ही जाना उधर और आप ही हैरान होना

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Also, did we notice there have been more posts about “soon to be banned blog commentator” than the particular blog commentators blog comments itself ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes Mahesh that is true and ironic

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan,
    Couple of things .
    While there has been a conversion to Buddhism – it has been more among Scheduled Castes and less so in Scheduled Tribes. Socially speaking , Dalits and Tribals are different groups – though both belonging to the underclasses. As much so that even today Caste and tribal origin are good enough social markers in rural India for economically vulnerable groups.
    Consequently , one would expect social resistance to adaptation of Pork. Another aspect that needs to be investigated is natual and economic sustainability of subsidised Animal Feed.
    That said, my bias still tilts towards improving the conditions of Farming classes – especially the smaller land owners – with well designed economic measures such as well regulated finance availability, crop insurances.
    On a related Note – a recent article by P. Sainath in Counterpunch points out migration of farming classes away from farming as a consequence of economic un-certainity.
    p.s.: Re-posting as earlier response got drowned somewhere in the overflowing bile here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh-
    The agriculture-related employment shares 65% of the total employment while the GDP share is only 25% or so (I may be off, but the share of employment/gdp is quite disproportionate). So, there is a planned and unplanned migration away from agricultural jobs.
    There is also a migration away due to education; the educated children of a small farmer not wanting to continue in farming.

    Then, there is lot of stealing of funds intended for special food programs for the disadvantaged – Manohar alluded to that; he felt schemes like Aadhar should close some of these stealing by bureaucrats.

    An interesting news I read, believe in one of the Western newspapers, is that the recent price rise of onions/vegetables is due to more children in the rural areas attending school. That there is no free or low priced child labour, and the producers have to pay higher wages to adults.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    If prices are dependant upon child labour, then they are false prices.

    Real price of a commodity must be based upon an adult living wage. Any thing else is just not sustainable.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ravi u are very right,their product is sold 40ruppees a kilo in delhi while 1rs a kilo only 40 kilometer away.brhmnsts hate to touch land and landowner.u know the history of bhumihars in bihar.why goverment is not protecting them.if they get only 5/kilo their sons can go schools can have good health.dallals and bitchoulias are running the show.

    gopi nair is rss propagandist on blog

    Ravi Reply:

    How right you are

    Ravi Reply:

    Mahesh

    I agree with you that to solve problems of India, Indian solutions are required.

    Pork is unlikely to be considered as an Indian Solution.

    Just as an example, I believe that in my childhood an attempt was to mass introduce Mushrooms into Indian Diet. It failed.

    In Europe, one can pay a very high price for quality wild mushrooms.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mahesh

    I am not sure whether you had followed the debate about rural development about two or three blogs earlier. I will try and post link for you. The central point was setting up of co-operatives at the village level or even among group of neighbouring villages – first and foremost to ensure water security (rain harvesting etc.), something similar to Hivare Bazaar or Ralegaon Siddhi models – minus the “Hitlereque” dictats (assaulting the personal liberties of the people) of Anna Hazare.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @RajeevS, and Rajiiiiiiv, Guys let me introduce myself professionally.I am a general surgeon of some years of experience , at the moment drifting to urology because urology is less strenous.Now guys I AM NOT AN AVERAGE BLOGGER.My experience in life is ENOROMOUSLY COMPLEX ,than you guys , in marketing software or whatever. MY RELIGION AND MY CREED IS SCIENCE, thus Rational and also I am a Humanist, FOR I HAVE YET TO SEE A RACE IMMUNE FROM CANCER YET TO SEE A RELIGION THAT CAN PROTECT ITS ADHERENTS FROM THE “EMPEROR OF MALADIES”
    So why all this Bakwas .
    Now Saudi Arabia.
    Rather than wasting time on the blog why not do some reading , like Eugene Rogan’s THE ARABS, YOU WILL BE TRANSFORMED.
    Even somebody with balwinder’s IQ can make out SAUDI SOCIETY IS STUCK AT YEAR HIZRA ONE, cladded all around by 21st century.
    But that business of not defering to anyone except GOD .EXPLAINS THE ROOT CAUSES OF ISLAMIC HEGEMONY FOR 1000 YRS.
    That birthplace of prophet in Mecca is a shrine to SHIAS, the saudis look at it with contempt(Source :Eugene Rogan)
    This egalitarianism has been the reason why THEY WON BATTLE AFTER BATTLE ,JUST TO PLEASE ALLAH , same the christians used “The Calling”, and the need to respond. HINDUS WERE BUSY WRITTING LAWS OF DEFILEMENT.Same with JEWS , NO WONDER JEWS WERETAKEN SLAVES FOR MILLENIA.
    Do you know when the TURKS attacked Constantinopole , they were in a disadvantageous position. The fortress was perched high up the hill and the walls were very very high. So they suffered heavy casualty , UNDETERRED , they piled and stacked the dead bodies one top of another, AND THE CLIMBED OVER THE HIGH WALLS and killed mercilessly.
    Now every dog has its day , BAGHDAD WAS SACKED BY HALAKU KHAN , the arabs still cannot forget that.
    There was a OPEN PACT between Abdul BIn Aziz Bin Saud and BIn Wahab (the preacher) YOU BRING YOUR FLOCK TO ACCEPTED ME AS KING , I WILL SEE THAT YOUR BRAND OF ISLAM IS THE ONLY OFFICIAL BRAND IN SAUDI.

    As for MAID BEATING , PEOPLE LIVING IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES AT OTHER
    Bangalore: A Bangalore-based family who recruited a domestic help through a Delhi-based placement agency has been allegedly torturing her for the last two year.

    The 20-year-old girl Usha Thopna from Assam was forced to seek employment through this agency when she turned 18. For the last two years, she has been working at the residence of Sandeep and Roski Vats, who allegedly tortured her physically and mentally daily. She had scars on her hands, wounds on her leg and fear and helplessness in her voice. To top this, they are yet to pay her wages.

    Sandeep Vats, a software professional and Roski who runs a library for children, do not even allow Usha to interact with neighbours.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    now royal family is opening hence thepact is crumbling.wahabism was creation of british imperialists to kill and fight turks like rss in india.both are on death bed.out of time.soon will be part of history.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Mr Vijay

    Your poem on the three Fundoos was really funny !!

    Who were the three funddos.

    I can identify one– Mr engrich, who is writing nonsense.

    The second you have named is obviously Ravi, about whom I have mixed feelings. he puts in some reasonable content. But somehow there is an agenda to insult Hindu feelings…

    And the third T U R D Tajendar… is he on the blog also?

    Anyway great poem. TYou should write more !

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mr Mittal

    I am sorry, I am unable to reciprocate.

    I do not know you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Mr Ravi

    I hope you did not mind. I am always very upset with fundmatalists who target India and castigate it for not being liberal enough. While secretly they support the wahabbi agenda of coversions and killings. Equally irritating is the claptrap of trying to insult Hindus using logic which they wont be able to use on their own religion.

    Ultimately hindus form 85% of the country. There is no point in making them feel cornered.

    But of course hindus have ot keep reforming their own religions as do all other religions. No single book can be ever perfect. Even Einstein has been put to test. Hindus have to dump the caste system once forever, even if it means a few of us lose prievelages. As for the other religions… they need to look beyond scriptures or intrpret or dump scriptures in case there is a rift with reality.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So Sanjay

    You think that a 62 year old Mona Sikh who has lived in the UK for 40 years, has suddenly become a Wahabi/Jihadi/ISI Agent/Shan’s Kuttar/An existential threat to India. Etc.

    Simply because he is critical of HINDUVATWANI’s and Sanghi’s like BV SHENOY, RAJEEV, RAJIIIIIV, VIJAY, etc.

    Then be my guest, they are recruiting other gang memebers and I do not care much for my fan club.

    Anonymous Reply:

    When you have Tajender T.urd in your gang, whom you have resurrected on this blog as Gingrich, why do you need any more to gang up with you? Besides, you have the bonus of Manohar’s solid support.

    Ravi Reply:

    You obviously can not read, either on the line or in-between the lines.

    engrich Reply:

    mittal hindu population is only 13-15%.remaining are slaves of hindus(high caste).actually hindustan is geogrephical concept not religious.

    engrich Reply:

    mittal,u dont understand the internal dynamics of ruler india.creator of wealth want peace.hate spewing have no taker among them.they form 85%of india.looted and exploited for centuries.

    Anonymous Reply:

    sunjay-

    Finally, I am getting a hang on this (difficult) blog format.

    Ravi used to be labeled Jihadi, ISI agent etc in Zia’s blog.

    He had talked about his views being formed by how his family was driven( by Hindus) from Sialkott to India (?)- on one question about Muslim terrorist actions against the USA , he answered “they have done a lot of harm to us” .. And in a comment to Tjender/Ramavtar, he said “they will never convert to our religion, so don’t go overboard”..

    Now he will say “show me the proof”. I do not know how to pull old blogs, but you can find it in Zia’s blog.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Yes Sanjay

    Unable to make your own mind.

    I suggest that you follow the gang. The Sanghi gang.

    In the Zia blog Raju was known as S Singh. The behrupia thinks every one is like him.

    He was asked for proof lon before the format changed. He didn’t then and he will not now because he is a duplicitous unsavoury character.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    A Gandhi at Rajghat

    Today, Sonia Gandhi visited the Raj Ghat on 142nd Birth Anniversary of the Mahatma.

    LK Advani was spotted having a chat with her.

    Do we know if the Nagpur gilterrati were present there in their full regalia, complete with a Black Topi and a half mast salute.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    now he is the god of hindutvawadis.though 60yrs ago they killed him.indian fascists are using him to reach to power.though from inner heart,they hate him.privately they even abuse him.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Gopi
    You wrote

    “Well, this blog is about Wazirstan, what should US do to control Haqqnis, and what will be the impact of all these..So, let us hold on to economics, sovereign vs individual entrepreneurship etc for another occasion”.

    Sorry Gopi, was busy taking care of an unruly element here, hence the delayed response.

    1) Reports have in come that one of key members of this Haqqani group has been captured by the USA in Afghanistan.

    2) The root cause is the ISI and the Pakistani Army (PA) and who have managed to beat the Pakistani political class into submission.

    3) Haqqanis is one of the offshoots of the cancer called ISI/PA.

    4) Even if the USA manages to eliminate the Haqqanis – with (highly unlikely) or without the help of ISI/PA, nobody knows how many other unknown “assets” the ISI/PA has across the region. They will be activated as and when required.

    5) The diabolical ISI/PA may ask the Haqqanis to lie low for sometime or ask them to change its complexion (name, whatever)

    So, IMO, nothing is going to change much even if (4) above becomes a reality, unless the ISI/PA are taken care of. How? Now that is a billion dollar question.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Maohar-
    u r right on all..Also the PA/ISI has extremist religious connexion.So, the elected civilians cannot do anything against th e PA/ISI. The only solution is mass uprising, like the Jasmine revolution in Arab lands (may not be good either– I was euphoric; but the latest news is that extremist Islamists are nudging the idealists away!) or 2) US military putting them imn their place.. Obviously (2) will have long term implications; but cannot be ay worse than waht it is now, probabilistically, even better

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    Good analysis.

    However, the only possible solution is to constructively engage with Pakistan. That does not preclude being prepared for a nasty war, if one was thrust upon us.

    All of the above points IMHO are symptoms rather than the disease.

    The disease is:

    1. For the middle eastern population to stop funding the Fundamental Islam. This experiment into Sharia Society is over and unsuccessful. Saudi is the key to this, and that is a slow moving beast. Withdrawl of this hormone will reduce the tumour. Religious fundamentalism on both sides of the border will go into remission.

    2. To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. This nat present is a more potent ingredient than Kashmir is. It has successfully put Kashmir on the back burner.

    3. Any genie once let out of the bottle is going to be difficult to put back in. Bhindrawale and Shiv Sena are both prime examples. The only people who can put the Islamic fundamentalist genie back in the bottle are those who created them, which is the ISI/Pak army. For them to do this, see 2 above.

    4. Gopi I hope you still do not believe that the Haqqani group is under direct control of the ISI, they have out grown them and are now funded from a variety of sources and have become a private for hire facility. They do ISI’s dirty work, more for money than for religious reasons. This means they can be bought-off

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi-
    I have entirely different opinion and perspectives.

    - First of all how does one “constructively engage” with Pakisatn. Who is in control? Army, ISI, Giliani, Zardari ?

    - “religious fundamentalism” on both sides. I always marvel at your equivocating both– just for once, admit there are real bad elements on that side..We may have bad too, they have not risen to that level of “sophistication/internationalization”.. So, please

    - Pak army always considered India as the existential threat, long before Afghanistan.. So, what we do in Afghanistan is immaterial. It just adds another layer. .

    - I personally do not think Army/ISI can put the genie back. Both are symbiotically connected. One cannot thrive with the other.

    - I do not know whether Haqquani is under direct control of army; but I am sure they have a strong tie. And I believe they are more of religious extremists than “mercenaries”.. The leader Jalaluddin went through surgery to remove a shell from his body without anesthesia, because of some stupid extreme religious Muslim belief..

    - There are only three things that should be done 1) denuke them using whatever strategies including any deals with US or even with Israel 2) tight control of border 3) targeted assassination of bad elements either with US or alone..as long as drones are there we should give our list to US to target. Our RAW agents should be empowered to atke out bad actors if they can. Chidambaram’s statement that we know where Dawood is, but Pakstan will not allow /will not take us to him.. is just deplorable

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Gopi

    Your different perspective is mostly refreshing. That is one reason why I like reading you, even when I find myself holding a different perspective to yours.

    I will respond to you point by point, you have made a lot of effort and it merits a proper serious response.

    1. Constructive Engagement: I am sure that this is already going on, behind the scene. I understand that it may be made difficult because of the way the power is organised in Pakistan.

    2. I believe that the nature of Relgious Fundamentalism is exactly the same, every where. The difference is between the degree of radicalisation and converting that into harmful activity. Here I ACKNOWLEDGE that the Religious Fundamentalist Organisations in Pakistan are a lot more radicalised and active than their counterpart in India. No one is more glad that is the case than I am. I condemn all forms of religious fundamentalism, and certainly recognise that it is dangerously active in PAKISTAN. Taliban, Jaish, Let are all rubbish organisations we need to counter.

    3. Yes you are right that the PA had considered India as an EXISTENTIAL threat before Afghanistan. But lately US trying to give India a greater share of influence in Afghanistan as magnified that scenario. Pakistan feels India is trying to surround it.

    4. Haqqani’s do have a strong tie with the PA/ISI, but they are angling for a seat on the negotiating table in their own right and not as some ones proxy.

    5. De Nuking will be good, but not very easy. As mentioned before several times.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Ravi and Pankaj

    We know the symptoms, we know the disease too.
    The question is cure/prevention (we know that too) and the most important who will be the doctor?

    However,
    1) Isn’t it asking for too much to expect the fundamentalist forces /sympathisers to stop funding these renegade organisations? .

    2) Another fundamental point to consider whether the patient is willing to be cured

    I see no evidence in support.

    3) Doctor Who?

    Now I am doing some loud thinking – Pakistan needs a Gandhi, who would be able to rally the population and tell the ISI/PA on their face – enough is enough, now go back to the barracks.

    4) The ISA/PA knows that we are not the main and existential threat to Pakistan. It is just bogey to corner major share of the country’s funds for themselves for their nefarious activities and business interests. It all boils down to money and the influence that accompanies it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    You may be right on (4). ISI/PA obviously wants to get a major share of money and keep it. However, it can be done without putting India as the “existential ” threat.

    The issue is that many generations of Pakisatnis, esp after Zia Al Huq, have been brought up being taught that there is no commonality with India, they are different race, they do not share anything with the ancient civilization, that India should be destroyed etc. Their text books are like Saudi Arabia’s where they say jews are blood drinkers, they should be killed etc. So, it will be difficult to put things back.

    You are right– they will need a truth teller, a Gandhiji

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    “You may be right on (4). ISI/PA obviously wants to get a major share of money and keep it. However, it can be done without putting India as the “existential ” threat”

    There is no existential threat to Pakistan. If they say India is not the one, then there is no iota of justification for their demands.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I am sure you have read my response to Gopi.

    Additionally, I would like to comment upon, does the patient want to be treated.

    I am of the opinion that it does.

    Who would not like stability, growth and prosperity, which India has proven is possible.

    In the long game the Pakistan society took a wrong turn under Zia Ul Huq and is now finding it difficult to get off it.

    The Saudi are not being helpful. However, the reverberations of Arab spring have still to stop.

    Today concession to women of Saudi, tomorrow who knows what.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    “Additionally, I would like to comment upon, does the patient want to be treated.

    I am of the opinion that it does.”

    I am not so sure. When the going is so good, why bother to get oneself admitted to a hospital.
    ———-

    The changes in Saudi Arabia will take ages – the hold of the religious leaders is too strong and overwhelming. It is religion religion at every step of the way.

    ———
    I agree, the wrong turn taken by Zia-ul-Haq.
    really messed it up.

    However, there seems to be no signs of any course correction.

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    I am not sure if the going is realy as good, as you may think. Pakistan is ingesting empty calories, eventually it will stop thriving and start to wither. To get into real development it needs to join the world, which at present it is unable to.

    Anonymous Reply:

    I was alluding to the powers-that-be (especially the ISI/PA) in Pakistan and not the aam admi on the sadak, they do not count.

    engrich Reply:

    saudis are changing the laws.their previous tough laws were to control tribal revolt.need of hour.saudi arabia progressed in every field.they have best of road,infrastructre health& education system system,only in riad they builting a girls college spendig 15 billion rial for 50000 girl student.saudia is backward society.cannot offord to have european laws.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I am happy to read your analysis and agree with you.
    I hope, I understand you as where you are coming from. we agree on many points and disagree on some, but that is the spirit of a discussion. No body should try to browbeat some dissenting opinions. Light is one but passing through prism of discussion, various hues emerge, but once passed through, light should become one colour again, except, that some body is trying to paint that light in black colour.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    Much appreciated. and I agree 100%.

    I only wish some of your fellow travellers were as sensitive and considerate as you (mind you I am not asking for any kid-glove treatment) . When they cross the limits – no one volunteers to tell them – hey listen buddy, thats just not done. If there is no volunteer, no problem, I can handle the situations myself.

    I have said these many times earlier. I do not expect everyone to hold the same views and opinions as mine and would be appalled if it were so – what a dull place this planet would be. All I look forward is civilised debates – discuss the issues and do not attempt to shoot the messenger. I would not hesitate to return the fire in case of the latter – as you must have seen on this blog itself.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ————————————————————————————————–
    Here is Ravi, the criminal Pak peddler, Anti-India propogandist , accusing India of Pakistan states’s hatred of India.
    This is what he says
    ————————————————————————————————-

    “2. To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. This nat present is a more potent ingredient than Kashmir is. It has successfully put Kashmir on the back burner.”

    So India is responsible for Pakistan’s criminality, venality and hatred of india, manifest in numerous terrorist organizations it arms and promotes ?
    Regarding Afganistan, so what are India’s sinister ‘aspirations’ that it must suspend to placate the criminal entity of Pakistan born out of Jinnah’s communal hatred ?

    India’s policy in Afganistan is simple. India would like to see a non-criminal, non-jihadi, non-terrorist government ( that means non-taliban ) government in Afganistan that cannot play host to hijackers like that of Indian airlines Kandhar hijacking. We dont want Islamic savages promoting terrorist from Kabul. That’s the same goal as rest of the civilized world has. However, to promote India friendly government, India is not sending criminal terrorists or forces into Afganistan like Pakistan does. India is using positive inducements , like financial aid in reconstruction, to promote relatively civilized government in Kabul.

    Only a criminal, shameless Pak peddler would argue things like ‘Indis needs to suspend its aspirations’ in Kabul to placate the criminal Pak army/ISI. This Ravi is the same thug who seems Hindu fundamentalism everywhere but sees problems with India’s policy of favouring non-Taleban govt in Kabul.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Ravi, when I spoke to Manohar, it was man to man.
    Please do not butt in from the side like a zenana, from behind a veil.

    You are upset with me because I reminded everyone that in the company of ramavtar-engerich-tajender, you had indulged in a week long slugfest with many others which had culminated in your hurling obscenity against bhagwan Ram.

    You had subsequently been rebuked by me, Balwinder praaji and others – when they had asked you to leave. You had replied with a single word- ‘ Balwinder, gone ‘

    I shall post the exchange in the new blog. Balwinder surely u remember ?

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    sorry Manohar when u read the exchange only then u will realise the damage done by ramavtar-engerich-tajender and others. The turning point occured when he insulted the memory of our dead commandoes in 2611 with vile language.
    Balwinder then single handedly led the campaign which lasted days to expel him. All of us were in support except for Ravi.
    MANOHAR, I blog a lot on Pak newspapers like PTH, Express Tribune and Dawn. They expel you for obscenity double quick

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The intent of a blogger is what matters.
    I may criticize Indian policies or society vehemently on a certain issue, but arguably no one will doubt my intent. People are smart.

    Then there are bloggers like Tajinder, Sal ( both some of the vilest Pakistanis to have abused the freedom afforded by the blog to attack Hinduism and india is vilest language possible ) , Ravi ( who tries hard to hide anti-India propoganda , couched in agony for any rape that happens in India , if the victim is a dalit and makes arguments similar to criminal Pak ISI/army . If you want an excuse for Saudi/Pak criminality, just ask him ) and then there is the no-substance, cut-and-paste Shan, whose ability to produce trash on this blog rivals that of Tajinder and Sal.

    The derision, that those 4 have invited on this blog, has been hard earned by them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    I am sorry to point out, but you are bajaaoing your bean in front of a bhains which can see only one side of an issue, like Manohar, who does enjoy supporting the likes of fake Ravi and fake Ram Autar, two Pakistanis masquerading as Hindus/Sikhs and Indians.

    When Vinod Sharma came up with a new order blog, it was supposed to filter posts like the ones by Tajender T.urd, but it is all in intent only, not in action.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well there are some rare bloggers who end up like Pakistanis who love the “positive” comments on Pakistan by DiggVijay Singh in tribune, unable to comprehend the intent or sarcasm.
    You cannot prevent dumb bloggers from blogging. Can you ?

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    See what I mean.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc

    1) A question –

    After the damage by X or ramavtar or whoever (who cares), did our respect and gratefulness of any our heroes diminish in our heart? Did we forget the sacrifices made them? I am sure the answer is no. I have humbly suggested – ignore him – he will wither away. By abusing no purpose is ever served (bolnewaale kaa munh kharaab hotaa hai) – I wish Shenoy and Rajeev would understand that, but then………

    kis kis kaa munh band karvaaoge?

    As they say – let the barking dogs bark. BTW, there are some more on this blog, like one just below, who imagines someone is a buffalo and he is … and has proceeded to gleefully stretch his vocal chords. I see such sights everyday on the streets. I will not take cognizance.

    2) The Pakistani newspapers expel double quick.so? You want us to be like the Pakistanis, who you hate with all your might? Sorry, I do not wish to ape the Pakistanis, do you?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    You do not have to.

    I remember it clearly. You do not mention that I acknowledged as well as apologised for it.

    Balwinder has also said, on more than one occasion, that since that unfortunate incident, I have not blasphemed at all.

    You did not remember that or if you did you cared not to mention.

    You have many a times chastised me, but never BV Shenoy. Even after I explicitly pointed out that your are one sided umpire, admonishing one side and not the other.

    I am sure you read Rajeev’s submission, every blog trying to incite other bloggers against me. You silence on that is deafening.

    What irks you the most, is that I do not capitulate to your presumed hegemony and that I challenge you.

    As have both Ashish and Shan.

    What you revel in is the cacophony of Wah Wah from sycophantic admirers of you.

    I will be gob smacked if you respond to this, as you have not on many previous occasions.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Today is 2nd October a Gandhi Jayanti. Today morning when I put on my TV
    almost all new channels were showing something about Mahatma Gandhi, Surprisingly I did not see on any channel anyone mentioning another great son
    of India who was also born on 2nd October. – LAL BAHADUR SHASHTRI -
    When I was in school I would always listen to a song on this day which mentions
    both these great souls but havent heard this song since very long time.

    Aaj hai do october kaa din
    aaj ka din hai bara mahaan
    aaj ke din do phool khile the
    jinse mahaka HINDUSTAN
    ek ka naam hai Bapu Gandhi
    aur ek Lal Bahadur hai
    ek ka naara Aman
    aur ek kaa Jai Jawan Jai Kisan.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    mohan

    Lal Bahadur was a “kisan’s” PM.. Honest leader.
    His death bought us Mrs Gandhi!!!!!
    Sometimes it is an interesting game– what if, ?
    How the history would have been different if he did not die in Tashkent.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Yes, history would have definetely different but alas …..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi, Mohan,

    Lal Bahadur Shastri, more of a second generation leader than the first, was diminutive in physical stature, but a giant in his status in India’s history. After Nehru’s accepting defeats at the hands of Pakistan and China, Shastri gave India, at that time wallowing in its abject defeat, a great fight back, a steely resolve not to surrender to the arm-twisting by the US-UK combine on behalf a half-defeated Pakistan

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan

    I agree.

    The fact is Mahatma Gandhi has become such a towering figure, what chance others! This in no way should be construed as denigrating Lal Bahadur Shastri. I have all the respect and highest regards for our founding fathers and the first generation of leaders of independent India and he was one of them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar-
    Books, writers, emperors, leaders etc get constantly reexamined, some remain all time favourites, or always in reverence and awe; I am sure Mahathmaji will be a diamond quality even after 1000 years.. It is even possible a future people will consider him like God, just like Jesus of Bethlehem is considered now.

    Lal Bahadur was on the stage only for a brief period; and that too after the charismatic Nehru who was a colossus. Shastri was a small man physically too. I was in my nineth grade when he was made the PM. There was a lot of loose ends behind his death in Tashkent — this fruc——ng Pakistani/Kashmir issue has been vexing us for too long.

    May be great purpose-driven leaders are born/made when conditions demand. The environment, leadership of Gandhiji etc provided fertile ground for selfless, highly qualified leaders, men of integrity.

    I think some of the conditions now also have similar potential to create transformational leaders. Believe me, in my 61 years, i have not seen as many young smart people who really are committed to nation building. I am really optimistic of the future of India, its future leadership (not in the immediate short term), and its future directions.

    I read about Aadhar, the identity project. Along with Nandan, it seems there are lots of committed young men and women working on this – these people left real high paying careers because they really feel Aadhar has the transformational power. This old man cried when i read about these boys and girls. And the boys and girls who were with Anna.

    The conditions and environment are apt for great leaders. My sense is that Modi will harness this; and he will do a decent job and create a framework; and a dynamic young person will come after that.

    Leadership does not mean political leadership alone — there are tremendous initiatives and projects going on, led by great young leaders.

    Mahathmajis dream of self sufficient villages etc will be fulfilled. Sooner, than later.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    I do not wish Gandhi to be treated like a God.

    They will keep him locked in a temple, pay homage when allowed to and forget all about his message and philosophy.

    There are millions of followers of Shirdi Sai Baba (he too has been put in a temple and “only seek his blessings” for their own good), but how many of them follow his teachings?

    engrich Reply:

    gopi jansanghi,

    u people killed him.always abused him now started worshipping him.are u not a chamoleons.u are using his name to reach the corridors of power.
    ghandhians do not perpetuate killings.any derogatory adjective is less for these vile and wickeds.
    u people carry all the qualities of fascists.

    engrich Reply:

    jansanghis are distributing sweets.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mohan,
    I am sure you know the reason.
    It makes sense to promote the brand Gandhi.. it has a rub off effect on the first family brand ruling India.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    DiggVijay Singh.
    There is a blogger in Tribune, who goes by that name. His postings are full of well camouflaged sarcasm, but most Pakistanis, fed on constant anti-India propoganda, take his comments on face value and end up congratulating him as the only sane person in India. This posting by him is pretty funny.

    Diggvijay Singh ( protesting any criticism of Zaid Hamid )

    21 hours ago

    “..
    Madame, please don’t conspire to shut down shop for Sir Zaid Hamid. Ever since Leonardo da Vinci, he has been the most multi-faceted and versatile talent the world has ever seen. He is a black-belt in Taekwondo, an equestrian champion, an authority on the works of Allama Muhammed Iqbal, former sidekick of a New Age Prophet, a guerilla-war veteran familiar with the rugged terrains of Afghanistan, a global security analyst, an Austrian-school economist, a diligent student of Islamic, Hindu, Jewish and Freemasonry history and fairy-tales, a top-class exponent of theatrics, and above all, a grandiloquent mesmerizing orator. Most sensible Indian youtubers are in absolute awe of him. I look up to him as a role model. Only a few juvenile Indians, shallow in thoughts and myopic in their outlook, have failed to recognize the blinding genius of this man lying under the veneer of humility and simplicity, his contagiously affectionate smile and his Bolshevik-revolution red cap. I mean, here is a man whose DNA-testing could offer vital clues in evolutionary biology regarding the splitting of the neanderthal and homo sapiens gene pools and we think of setting him aside? We should be listening to him as often and as keenly as we can! I personally don’t mind his Ghazwa- e-Hind at all if India can have a Khalifa as brilliant and talented as Sir Zaid Hamid.”

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All
    Farid Zakaria of CNN just finished an interview with Hina Khar, Pakistan FM, on his show, GPS.
    Actually she came across good, knowledgeable.

    A modern (looking) woman, quite young, beautiful person — This is what she answered Farid on his question on “blasphemy law” :

    This modern looking, young woman answered ” there is nothing wrong with the blasphemy law. There is some fine tuning to be done with its implementation”….

    On his question on why this, why now , who else in the world has something like this in their constitution – “many countries, such as Saudi Arabia”… and after some thinking, “Iceland” …

    It is tough for me to believe that Iceland has a law like that. I am sure, even if there is a law, they are not implementing it with the same rigor like Pakistanis

    Pakistan now will say they are in the company of advanced countries like Iceland!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy,

    There is one more similarity between these two countries .
    Pakistan and Iceland – Both are Bankrupt _

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    But there is a big dissimilarity: Iceland is cold, and also cold to terror, whereas Pakistan is a hotspot for terror. Also, Iceland doesn’t bite the hand that feeds it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Binoy,
    Are you trying to do a “DigVijay Singh of tribune” on this blog by your following comments on Pak foreign minister Hina Khar ?

    This is what she answered Farid on his question on “blasphemy law” :

    This modern looking, young woman answered ” there is nothing wrong with the blasphemy law. There is some fine tuning to be done with its implementation”….

    There is nothing wrong with blasphemy law, only some fine tuning ? Pak civilian government, its foreign office and foreign minister are nothing more than the “begging unit” of pak army/ISI entrusted with the job of collecting alms from other countries. Since, western nations have developed an allergy to giving aid directly to military dictatorships, so Pak has come up with this new arrangement where the military/ISI holds all the power while the civilian administration concentrates on begging and collecting aid for the army/ISI.

    This arrangement has worked well for Pak for last few years.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiiv
    She is quite pretty and petite and pretty good in answering.
    She did say there is nothing wrong with blasphemy law..and the only issue is the need fro some fine tuning!

    You are right about the civilian/military; who controls whom etc. However, my assessment, after listening to US media is that even the military is not that powerful. These networks like LeT, Hqquani etc have become powers dictating to the army.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ mohan, Binoy, Shenoy and Rajiiv

    iceland mein ice se woh bhi jam jaata hai…

    Pakistan mein fundoos se woh bhi jam jaata hai…

    Toh yeh hai na common link…

    Anonymous Reply:

    The only other country which has in its constitution a blasphemy law like Pakistan’s, apart from Saudi Arabia is Nomansland.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    In last couple of posts, Shenoy invariably is mentioning me with lots of colourful adjectives/descriptions attached . He surely must be really mad at me.

    I am still “wondering” – mera qasoor kyaa hai (TIC).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy and Manohar

    I think both of you write reasonable stuff. Shenoy can be entertaining and witty.
    Manohar can be logical and factual.

    As life has it, both are on different sides of the political spectrum.

    To Manohar, I would say… you may hate Shenoy’s stance… but don’t hate the man. Many of us, do enjoy reading his poems. Just dismissing him as an RSS guyetc does not get into the issue that he may just have a different viewpoint in life.

    To Shenoy, I would request, life is about different shades of opinion. SO even if somebody has an opposing view, yet is NOT anti national… well debate it out… with or without, rancour…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay,

    I have never called Manohar anti-national. But, I do try to respond, if not in equal measure, at least in some measure, to what he gives. I do not however claim that I have slapped him, as his friend claims he has me.

    And Sanjay, I also know, having observed them for the last sixty years from close quarters and close contacts, that RSS men, even to the last one, are also not anti-nationals. I have never been a member, but I respect them.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I hope that was a joke.

    Because it is funny.

    Did you not call Sarvarkar as Gurudev. Outside of RSS no one ever says that.

    There are at least half a dozen or so court cases against RSS members. One of them is the murder of another RSS man to shut him up.

    And protested that he is much misunderstood.

    Your desperation is self evident.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sanjay

    1) “Manohar can be logical and factual”.

    Is that the reason for his anger?

    2) “Hate Shenoy’s stance”!

    No I don’t. It is something completely different.

    3) “Different viewpoint”

    See my discussion with Pankaj below.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pakistan’s latest sin– Murder of Rabbani

    Sadaly but not surprisingly Paksitan keeps tumbling down the hill on the road of no return of terrorism.

    Afghanis have furnished proof that their former president, Burnuhuddin rabbani was murdered by Pakistani/ISI terrorists. PM Gilani of Pakistan , while not denying has requested Afhanis not to look into the past and move on…

    Stroy can be read in DAWN

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Only for Shan (others please excuse)

    Now your club is just 2 points above relegation. Sunderland at home won’t be easy either after the international break.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Iswar only, I mean without a regular central defender , Song filling in ,what can you say. really depressing . Now Sagna gone for, god knows how long , Lets hope diaby and vermaalen comes back.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    MANOHAR,

    The moderation policy of 3 Pakistani newspapers is excellent- Pak Tea House, Express Tribune and Dawn. The first 2 in particular block both the email adress and your computer identity number ( is it called IP no) if you abuse a religion or any blogger or use foul language.

    They also ban moronic mile long cut and pastes from Manusmriti or the ‘dark’ areas of Quran.ie, the bit about the prophet lusting after his ‘daughter-in-law’

    They also ban bores who do not stick to topic. haha, this is trus as some of my friends have complained.

    I love that atmosphere and I have got excellent feedback from most writers and most moderate Pakistanis. Only diehard Jinnah worshipper on PTH-YLHAMDANI- has occ banned some of my comments – like – ‘ if Jinnah was to be born today, he would love to join me for a drink of Amrut whisky as we would look across the border and he would wonder where his creation went so terribly wrong ‘

    haha

    [Reply]

    Dr Mishra Reply:

    I then posted the same comment on Raza Rumi’s blog and it got good feedback

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Among the ones you mention, I like Express tribunes moderation policies, though they have flaws like inconsistency and more tolerance for pro-Pak comments. In tribune, I should say 1/2 my comments get published ( babloo, analyst ) and 1/2 do not . I think it depends on the moderator on duty.
    I just posted a comment that said ” Hindus, Jews and Christians are conspiring against the greatest Islamic state on earth, Pakistan”.
    It got promptly published. But with subtle mixture of sarcasm and humour, you can get most of your comments published.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc
    I have no problems if you like the moderation policies of their newspaper sites.

    If we have to apply moderation, say on this blog, it has to applied equally to all – two or three other bloggers (you know who they are) other than ramavtar or whatever would be the first ones to disciplined or given marching orders.

    Basically, I am against any form of censorship – I would like to know all shades of opinion. Isn’t it an advantage to know where ramavtar stands or what his views are -however despicable they may be?

    Our country bans books and films on pressure from some loony and crackpot group(s), who claim it offends/insults their sensibilities and/or is against Indian culture/values (my god) and the government of the day succumbs. Pathetic indeed.

    Moderation yes, if applied to all and not selectively.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    There is a punjabi bramhin or PUNDOO , blogger here who is a PIMP in usa . This guy has a visceral hatred for anything muslim , for to look into the mirror will expose , how many members in his family has been involved in raping and dehumanising dalits . This bugger has written as many original words in this blog as his family has given alms to a dalit. This is a pest , a vermin who thankfully is out of india .Strangely despite living in WB for 25 yrs , not a grain of civility and sophistication of bengalee culture has rubbed on him , he remains the PAPPI culture , crude , uneducated , gross , and is as fun as a DOG’S ****. HIS NAME IS RAJIIIV

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I am glad that someone so willingly provides evidence justifying comments posted by me and others about Shan/4darnleysteer7 . I am sure he will continue to work hard to keep proving me and others right , everyday.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You are like a ***** who prides on her chastity. Your postings are just that , only a HINDU VERSION OF TALIBAN that you are , can produce such unadulterated trash..You are an utter disgrace , India is better off without your physical presence , SO WILL BE THIS BLOG

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Dr Mishra

    Having sent a grenade in my direction you seem to have ignored, as predicted two responses on the very subject that you initiated.

    I am sure people can judge for themselves.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————-
    ~~~ as u would notice… THE DOG OUT HERE REPRESENTS ME ! :) ~~
    —————————————————————————————————————–

    Always loyal to friends, causes and country. That is what is me…

    @ Dr Mishra

    Thanks for remembereing me at the world Punjabi Conference. Wish I was there! Ur sailing video was inspirational. While I may no claim to be a master of the seas… someday hope to learn scuba and sailing… and disc over the scum Osama’s body underwater.

    @ Shenoy

    the poety was inspirational…

    @ Ravi

    We are destined to be enemies for ever… Wish you could stop being the Fundoo no 2 of my book, the Three fundoos . T U R D Tsajendar, of course being the Fundoo no 1. Wish u could reform and grow a walrus :) … but then you would be happier with Osama’s style.. :0

    @ Ashish,

    just followed a bit of ur comments on twitter… hmmm interesting !

    @ Binoy,

    Dont get too impressed by hina’s looks. The gora rang which is pf premium value in India, comes naturally in areas denied of the sun in winter. Half of my relatives are from that belt. Though they came to India as refugees. However many of them do display tendencies of being misogynists…

    Anyway The Paksitani strategy has always been to have loqacious, eloquont spokesmen in the foreign office, as compared to India where we sometimes get SM Krishana’s as foreign ministers… who would rather be shy and silent. And nondescript…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vijay

    If the price of your friendship is for me to STOP being true to my feelings and inclinations. Then that is the price I am un-willing to pay.

    What you treat me as, is within your control.

    However, please do tell me how will I know, when you are being friendly or are being an enemy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Ravi

    Raj kapoor ki film mera naam joker mein ek Hindustani kutta hai jiska naam Moti hai. Vijay is that moti. Always willing to bite whoever attacks Hindustan … simple as that….

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vijay

    कहता है जोकर सारा ज़माना आधी हकीक़त आधा फसाना

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ RAVI

    That is why I say

    Chashma uttaron …
    phir dekho yaaraon
    Pakistan wahi hai…
    Fundoos ki dastaan….

    Ravi Reply:

    Na tuk mili na matlab. Kya aaj desi dharra chal raha hai.

    AshishC Reply:

    Vijay,
    my twiter handle @canindya is for all sorts of things.. politics, general gyaan, cricket, chess, food, picking up a fight…
    sadly, I have been not too active lately on twitter.. was sucking in a lot of time.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    Would you pass some hints about RSS literature? Where I can read that? I would much appreciate, if you could pass me the link or your source of information. To my mind, they claim to represent India and Indians, not only Hindus. let us see, what you are talking.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    Here is your first link. If you are keen, there are many others which lead out of this.

    ….- http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-puniyani020605.htm

    It will be interesting to know how the source, authors, and everything associated with this, will be condemned.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The end of the url got missed.

    …comm-puniyani020605.htm

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dear Ravi,
    you believe Ram Puniyani is gospel? Now I understand everything about where you are coming from.

    Ravi Reply:

    YES I DO

    AshishC Reply:

    Ah, my friend; you only read to confirm your own world view.. tee hee hee!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    http://www.stopfundinghate.org/resources/rssprimer.htm

    http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/Fascism.India.htm#MADHAV%20SADASHIV%20GOLWALKAR

    The links provided do not speak favourably about the RSS.

    You should read the views from the other side by its supporters and apologists to get a balanced view. Google M S Golwalkar and also RSS to get list of links.

    I am sure you will be able to decipher what RSS actually is, after reading several points of view. Then we can discuss the RSS, if you so desire.

    Good luck.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thanks Manohar;
    I will certainly look at links provided by you but not in a hurry. The previous link given to me took me to some Binu mathew from kerala, a known communist strong hold and left leaning populace. Ram puniyani, appears to be an educated person, but that is not sufficient. He may have his personal perspective. He has every right to express them but that can not be taken as gospel truth. I had gone to wikipedia for RSS and found many things there. It is a mixed reading, no body is incrimination RSS for violence and other henious things. There is a long list of references, and I may go to some.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So you become the first one to denounce the author. Typical RSS tactict

    How so predictable.

    I guess you wish to read, just to re-inforce your firmly held prejudices.

    Shame on you.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ek Besharam aadmi doosaron ko kah raha hai’ shame on You? typical of a leaguee.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    I provided the links. Rest is up to you who to believe and who not to. As Ravi mentioned – do not shoot the messengers. Of course, it will be a mixed reading – two sides of a coin. Sorry, If I sound patronising, the trick is to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    The only point I would make – you must take Wikipedia with a large spoonful of salt. Anybody can write anything there – no checks, no cross references, nothing – no one the wiser about its authenticity.

    PS: RSS and violence – enough incidents in the last 20 years or so. No need to go too far in the past.

  • Anonymous

    @ Sanjay

    Just checked out Pakistan’s role in the murder of Rabbani. It was interesting to note how Rabbani was understanding the Indian way of reconicling differences by studying the Manipur situation. Maybe that triggered pakistan’s murderous reaction.

    I think we are living next to a neighbour which is showing the worst traits of fascism. Much of our defences rest on the stances thed US takes, In case the US moves out of Afghanistan, we should expect more 26/11’s. Parliament attacks and kandharars.

    The UN has no way of doing a nasbandi of Pakistan. And in Sm Krishana, Amul Baby and Digviansh SIngh, we may end up inviting trouble at our own doorsteps… to a larger extent than it exists.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The greater the trouble in Pakistan, the less resources it has to promote and finance terrorism into India. Its as simple as that.
    The reason , why at least the foreign office of Pakistan is pouring out less diatribe against India than usual is the economic and strategic trouble they find themselves in. Period.
    The more economically stable Pakistan, the greater its ability to finance every possible criminality.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiiv

    What amazes me is the truth that despite the world looking at it, and despite the drone attacks , the inner core of the Pakistani state still supports Let type of jehadis without fail. Most terror attacks all over the world emnate from Pakistan. And it is not willing to change its strategy…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Ravi,
    Extract from your response below ….
    “To make ISI and Pakistan Military, realise that India is not an EXISTENTIAL threat. That may require India to suspend its Afghanistan aspirations for a short while. This nat present is a more potent ingredient than Kashmir is. It has successfully put Kashmir on the back burner.”
    I am curious myself about reasons of our own presence in Afghanistan. Why are we there ? For what ? Somehow, while the Indo-Pak conflict appears to have shifted stage to Afghanistan , the contours of conflict don’t appear very clear.
    p.s. : Would love to have a bit of Pakistani perspective as well on this.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Mahesh

    Earlier on, I had made a comment that the CURRENT conflict, meaning in the last few months, since the US has decalred its intention to quit, the war is all about who will have what power and influence in the Post War Afghanistan.

    US wants to give India a greater role than it had before the war. This they want to do precisely to wean Afghanistan off its near total reliance on Pakistan.

    Pakistan sees this as US meddling in its own back yard, further more it sees as India establishing greater hegemony in South East Asia.

    Pakistan is also worried that India would have surrounded it both on its Eastern as well as its Western Border.

    The rest as they say is Bumb Visbhot, and the Haqqani Network.

    I will let some Pakistani give you their perspective, mine comes from the Royal Berkshire.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Dear Ravi,
    geo-politics is a massively multiplayer game.
    That said, if we simplify this, for the sake of modeling to a game of chess between India and Pakistan…
    In chess, you can’t stay in your corner or your side of the board and defend and defend.. you also have to make the other side bleed; constantly pose a threat, make forays- if your opponent is planning a break down the King’s side, you need to calculate whether repulsing the attack is going to yield dividends or starting your own push down the Queen side or a diversionary fire somewhere else is better.
    I do not know if India is serious about Baluchistan (diversionary foray) or Afghanistan- Indian Queenside push to counter Pakistan’s King-side offensive in Kashmir. But, if they are, there is nothing wrong in it.
    If Pakistan is an adversary, I for one believe they are, then we would be well advised to deny them strategic depth.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    The other side of the other side, is us

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Mahesh,
    Assuming yours is a serious question and not an effort to get Pak criminal/ISI perspective from Ravi, here is the answer

    “India’s policy in Afganistan is simple. India would like to see a non-criminal, non-jihadi, non-terrorist government ( that means non-taliban ) government in Afganistan that cannot play host to Pak terrorists and hijackers like that of Indian airlines Kandhar hijacking. We dont want Islamic savages promoting terrorism from Kabul. That’s the same goal as rest of the civilized world has. However, to promote India friendly government, India is not sending criminal terrorists or forces into Afganistan like Pakistan does. India is using positive inducements , like financial aid in reconstruction, to promote relatively civilized government in Kabul.

    Only a criminal, shameless Pak peddler would argue things like ‘India needs to suspend its aspirations’ in Kabul to placate the criminal Pak army/ISI. This is the same fraudulent, propogandist allegation that Pak army/ISI makes against India. “

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiiiv;
    I still would llike to address you as Rajiv. I read mahesh’s comment 2 or 3 times as it was a very well constructed question. Full of innocense and full of mischief. obviously, Ravi, deflected it, saying that some pakistani should answer this Ha. the question was asked to the rightperson for the pak perspective.
    India was advised to not go to Afghanistan, so as to assugae fear of pakistan about encirclement. keeping Kashmir cool was also thrown in as an inducement. Some body is more concerned about pakistanis worries than india’s worries. this much is obvious.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Is it.

    I guess in your world 2+2 is 22.

    No wonder you became a Dr. High on qualification, low on education.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Would it make sense for India to complain and say that China should not have consulates in Pakistan because it amounts to encircling India ?
    China’s two greatest “all weather clients” are Pakistan and burma. Would it make sense for India to cry that China is encircling India ?

    Unlike China, india is not exporting nuclear technology, missiles to Afganistan. In fact, india is to be applauded for not sending forces to Afganistan or arming it against Pakistan.
    The most India has offered is that if Afganistan wants, India will train its police and internal security forces in India. The pace and number of it to be determined only by Afganistan.

    It would require an idiot ISI peddler to complain about Indian relations with Afganistan.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiv;
    For certain people, China encircaling India is alright. Shri Lanka, Burma, Nepal, Pakistan and now claim to Arunachal is alright. brotherly help to Afghanistan is encircaling pakistan??? what a Joke.

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj they are perpetuators of 600plus anti-muslim riots in india.rss represents high caste hindu only,this nonsense can be asked only by jansanghi.are they fighting for justice of riot victims.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    What you are stating are part of strategic goals. The kind of Indian deployment currently ongoing in Afghanistan , coupled with Indian diplomatic overtures to Pakistan , makes me think there is something outweighing the strategic military interests.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Vijay,
    Among the few infinites, One is dumbness of US policy towards Pakistan and the capacity of Pakistan’s duplicity and ability to defraud others.
    Pakistan started financing terrorism into Kashmir and punjab in 1980-ties, as billions of dollars were pumped into Pakistan by Raegan administration in support of militants fighting soviet rule in Afganistan. Those 8-9 years, saw great economic growth rate in Pakistan and simultaneously its ability to finance terrorist groups.

    An economically weak Pakistan, surviving on its own , instead of alms and donations from all over the world, is far more likely to follow responsible, sane policies for its own survival than a Pakistan that is economically strong because then it would just free up resources for the greatest criminal entity on earth to cause more trouble..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Mahesh

    Let me answer this one for you. All because my sister happens to be stationed in Afghanistan on a UN mission and comes to stay back at our house every fortnight, flying in from Kabul on saturday and flying back on Monday morning.

    a) Afghanis are pretty simple people who were fooled by pakistani’s into believing that their mission in life is to spread Islamic culture. Their numbers too are very very small … about the population of Delhi.

    b) most of them love India… and Bollywood, but time and again Pakistanis tell them they should hate India and love Osama.

    c) this is a region which is dirt poor. Pakistan wants to kill most Afghanis and amalgamate this with Pakistan as its 8th State. the strategic depth story.

    d) Unfortunately India which is so loved out there… haS Little presence as most fo the road contracts and material contracts are with pakistnai companies and US.

    However the democratic centralism, India represents can be the role model of the Afghanis. They hate Pakistan and want India there.

    That is why Pakistan is scared….

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Vijay,
    People of Afganistan hate Pakistanis ( and pak peddlers ! ) and Pakistanis know that. Poll after poll confirms that. The border dispute between Af-Pak continues to simmer. Afganistan does not recognize Durand line that gives away large chunks of Pushtoon territory to Pak. In 1947, the only nation to vote against granting UN membership to Pakistan, was Afganistan.
    Even Pak sponsored Taleban government, resisted Pak attempts when Taleban was in power in Kabul, to recognize Durand line.

    Pakistan wants to view Afganistan as its slave nation. Its that criminal mentality that motivates it to object indian relations with Afghans.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajiv

    i think the solution lies in Afghanistan for India. If we go back to 1998., Pakistan used Afghanistan as a base for the IC 814 plane hijack.

    in every way, aFGHANISTAN WITH A POPULATION LESS THEN THAT OF HARYANA does not prove a threat to India. In fact most Afghanis fear that they will be forced to merge with Paksitan.

    I think a FM like Jaswant Singh and NOT Krishana woulld call this a god given opportunity….

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Hehehe, hohoho, Mishraji tusi World punjabi conference kya gayey tusi Punjabi jokaan crack karney lagey. Kya Ravi pey tadka daala = Ravi dont swipe at me like a janana from behind a ghungat.
    hehehe, I am laughing so hard I will burst my stitches. Oye Ravi sher da puttar hai to sheran wali gal kiya kar. Why do u need baisakhi and try to chipko with tajender and sha, apni koi hasthi nahin hai? When u talk with docsaheb then dont drag Ashish and otbers into it, stick to topic.
    Ravi ask yourself question, who abuses hindu Gods. Is it Jews of Israel or Shaolin monks, or is it Islamic fascists mainly pakis ?? Pl u answer this question. I may have forgiven u, but rajiiv and shenoy never will. Ab mard ki tarah soch, if u cant live with a SIMPLE jehadi/pakistani taunt, then leave the blog. Rota kyun hai?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Balwinder

    Happy to live with any taunt.

    It gives me one more legitimate opportuinty to label Sanghi’s as Crypto Fascist and Saffron Terrorists.

    Do I look like a worried man.

    Janani te Dr Mishra hai, jo sawal kar ke Jawab sunan waste rukya nahin.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Balwinder,
    I think you meant from “behind a heejab” and not behind a “ghungat”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    At least he did not say from behind Shenoy’s LUNGOAT, then he would have meant you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well who better to know about lungoots than someone like you who has spent his life hiding under Osama’s lungoot and now find’s himself ‘exposed’.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Osma ki lungoat se ISI fundoo chattiayan maare…
    Ang ang uska tapda rehanda… Jihad nu karre ishaare…

    Ravi Reply:

    अज दा दिन चंगा सी, सूरज दी किरनां एस्त्रां चमकन
    जिदां शेह्नोई दी धोती विचों विजय दा मुहँ चातियाँ मारे

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Phir Tahmadiya sampraday bola.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    War looks like between dhoti and Tahmad.

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj be care ful,

    dhoti khulti hai peeche se tahmat khulta hai aage se.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiv;
    langot or tehmad, Chaar Khano wali.

    Anonymous Reply:

    The bhand is back. Did you see my lines “Even somebody with an IQ that of Balwinder can make out that saui society is stuck at year hizra One”
    THAT WAS MEANT TO BE A COMPLIMENT

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ everyone

    Gnight !!!!

    Just winding up to crash into bed. As usual this blog got out the best in all of us.

    My constant fear is that innocents will die all ovet the workd becasue fo Paksitan’s perfidy and its blind love for idiots like A W Khan who supplied nuclear tech to all who could afford it.

    The US should share part of the blame for winking at Pakistan acquiring this tech. But most of this is also due to China, who tought that a nuclear Pakistan is going to be a good grateful chamacha.

    Not knowing that a nuclear Paksitan will eventually blow up this planet…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Amen

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good Night. You should get a patent on the term “chattiayan maray”. Love that.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    There are people denouncing Savarkar. would like to know why?

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    You sent me a couple of links. went there. some US Organization, purportedly fighting for multicultural and Plurality of India. No known person or respected news agency. As I will not quote Panchjanya, organizer, kalyan for my source, I will not take their opinion in account. they have an agenda and they appear to be a lobbyist. why I, You or any one should take them seriously?? fail to understand. As you have a pronounced opposition to Sangh and other such organization, I would like to have YOUR perspective with evidence, not hearsay.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    As Vinodji will be uploading his new blog today, perhaps we will discuss RSS in the new blog. Always ready for a debate.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    @ Everyone.
    Remember Samir Khan?
    propaganda chief for Alwaki or was he Awlaki? Pakistan has a rich stable of propaganda specialists who operate in different guise. Beware!!!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    For a better day(that is arsenal bouncing back)
    This is addressed to serious bloggers, mahesh, manohar, ravi, binoy ,gopi CLOWNS AND BRAMHINS excluded , except ashish (dad CPM)
    INDIA’S PRESENCE IN AFGANISTAN
    lets first make it clear india hasn’t gone there to make DHARTMA 2, with Fardeen Khan doing his dad number “Tere Chehere mey jo jadu Hai”
    INDIA HAS GONE THERE TO PLAY “THE GREAT GAME” and rightly so .
    There is LOTS AND LOTS OF OIL in CENTRAL ASIA AND CASPIAN SEA , WHICH INDIA JUSTIFIABLY WILL LIKE TO GET HANDS ON.First time in India’s 2000yrs history INDIA IS BEHAVING LIKE A MARD AND NOT A MOUGA.
    India already has a small air base in ? Tajikstan .
    So whatever Ravi alludes to pakistan’s discomfort PAKISTAN CAN STUFF IT.
    As to that AIR HEAD Rajiiiv , the punjabi pundoo actually replace p with a g,
    suggesting that india has gone for innocent puppy love for Afganis , that is his demented brain in a super fast mode.
    Afgans always wanted to come to india , that is the maqsad of all afganis starting from sher Shah,who would like to stay in that hell hole , a barren area.
    the kabuliwala by tagore , made into film by bimal roy.
    King Zarar Shah OPPOSED PAKISTAN’S ENTREE INTO UN IN 1946, the whole of NWFP in pakistan is legitimately belongs to afganistan , WAS CARVED OUT TO CREATE A BUFFER TO PROTECT THE PROPERTY OF BRITISH THAT IS INDIA FROM RUSSIAN ENCROACHMENT.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan (and others contributing to this thread),
    I tend to agree with you partly – to the point of us being in Afghanistan having something more than altruistic motives. As a supporting argument I would like to cite our own history of international diplomacy by and large leaning on UN mandate as preference rather than unilateral actions.
    That leaves us looking at competition with Pakistan in Afghan region.
    Here – IMHO – the competition appears more for non-military purpose with militaristic overtones. As a supporting argument – I would like to cite our own deployment in Afghansitan that is less militaristic in nature plus our own diplomatic overtures towards Pakistan for a “peace / settlement” in Afghanistan. The question that still remains un-answered is – for what ? Oil ? Mineral resources ? Access to Iran ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Mahesh, IMHO , all of the reasons you cite. The problem with pakistan is this Kabiley ke Sardar kind of tribal approach. China is pouring money like hell in srilanka to buy influence , india is countering by pouring more money , training for srilankans. and that’s fine. In fact China had pledged to invest something like 500 million to extract minerals from afganistan .
    I don’t think anybody has the right to stop that , nor is it desirable.
    The problem is with the pakistani HUKUMAT. My feeling is there is NO PAKISTAN , it is PUNJAB AND ITS COLONIES. These punjabi FEUDAL landowners , are what they are . Coupled with this is the army which is also OVERWHELMINGLY PUNJABI. So this is typical PUNJABI behaviour, which one might come across in India time to time , aggressive , irrational , STUPID HYPERSENSITIVITY of PRIDE AND HONOUR.
    In fact incredible it may sound Musharaff, if he was at the helm , LOT OF RAPPROACHMENT would have taken place. This is the opinion of no other than the BJP Ram Jethmalani, who infact blames Vajpayee for not seizing the oppertuinity.This encirclement business is pure BS. In fact if India had a garrison in kabul , that will be permanent hostage. Nobody is preventing pakistan to spread its influence or preferably buy it , in Afganistan , BUT PAKISTAN WANTS TO TURN KABUL INTO A CHATTEL , A SATELLITE STATE.

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    We here are still lawyering the terrorist cases of 10-15 years ago.

    20000 muslim lads are languishing in various indian from 15 years without being tried.muslims in india are arrested on false reporting of brhmnst of IB to extract money they are usually innocents.some of them are shot in false encounter to get promotion.there is media ib nexus to create fear to promote brhmnsm.they have no evidence against them.against good cash bribe to create problem for goverment and divide society.

    justice delayed is justice denied.i salute sonia,she is atleast trying to improve the situation.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vijay Kumar,

    Prabhat is a fictional character Vinodji had created to tackle all the sanghis, right wing Hindu fundamentalists etc and also to protect the Ravis, Tajenders, Manohars etc.

    Perhaps, now Vinodji feels there is no threat from the first group and to the scond one.

    So he has made the character disappear.

    But, if there is a popular demand for his reappearance, it might be considered.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “But, if there is a popular demand for his reappearance, it might be considered. ”
    Alternately , he might reappear once this blog erupts in a civil war.
    All it takes is a few of your instigations.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “…also to protect the Ravis, Tajenders, Manohars etc. ”

    We do not need any protection,, we fight our individual battles very successfully without any help – all it takes is courage of conviction and stand one’s ground and not………(you know what follows).

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Ravi;
    You did not tell anything about Savarkar. You are simply saying that my old college has failed me. I am sure, JNU is not your college/ university.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It seems that the US has backed off from the confrontation with Pakistan which arose becasue of Mullen’s comments.

    The Pakistani PM too is claiming a victory of sorts.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dont be misled by Pak PM claims. Pak claims victory even when it loses. Pak claimed victory even in 1971. In fact, when Pak goes to Indus Water commission with disputes and the commission rules on 9 out of 10 issues on India’s favour and on one cosmetic issue may rule in Pakistan’s favour, Pak and Pak media claim victory. Its a comic nation.
    Meanwhile, it was a wrong interpretation of Mullen statement to think that US will go on war with Pakistan. What Mullen and US administration has done is laid grounds to tighten economic screws and acknowledged that there policy of bestowing economic benefits to Pakistan , in hope of Pakistan action against terrorists, has failed and they are going to re-orient that policy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    This punjabi pundoo must be selling cigarettes and cold drinks from the shops next to a subway in USA like many many indians do. Certainly with his intellect I cannot beleive he is capable of anything more substantial .

    Here is the opinion of the Ex CIA officer, BLOGGERS JUDGE THIS IDIOT FOR YOURSELF
    “US options are limited as we don’t want a larger war in south Asia,” said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer who advised the White House on Afghanistan and Pakistan in 2009 and a fellow at the Brookings Institution think tank.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    How very true.

    Shoot the messenger is one their first lines of “defence”.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vinodji

    Very well analysed.

    A large section (read sycophants) of the Congress have never accepted Dr. Manmohan Singh as the Prime Minister – these loyalists (who are more loyal than the King himself) only wish to see only a member of the family in that position or themselves and no other. That is crux of the problem and that is why it has been presenting the opposition with one opportunity after another to take them to the cleaners. Disaster keeps striking it with regular frequency.

    First, the BJP has become a “reactionary” party. It only reacts – with disasterous results – to events. Haven’t seen any (original) initiative (yes, except farcical ones – fast and rath yatra) emanating from the party on any of the major problems and issues confronting the nation. Second, the tussle for the numero uno position is normal in any party – should not be an issue. In any case, this tussle should not be given any importance and has no relevance – when the time comes, Mohan Bhagwat & Co. will decide who will occupy that chair.

    The infighting in the CPM will not cause any reverberations – at the moment the party has lost its relevance and the people would not to be too bothered with the shenanigans there within. A mere side show, if you ask me.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar

    Ya, left is a side show.. I do not think anybody is going to seek them out for partnership in the next Lok Sabha election, may be except in kerala, where they can still get 10-15 seats out of the 20 with a partner…

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Agree with you Vinod. Good analysis.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    “Team Anna ain’t seen anything yet”.

    Good one.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    After hounding members of Anna’s team now it is Swami’s turn.

    http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?737141

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Vinod Sharma

    You have to admit that the UPA shot itself in the foot over the past one year. Just last year, after the obama visit, veryone was on a high.

    And now the UPA is at its lowest.

    Why did you not name the villians.

    1) Mani Silencer Aiyar, who failed as sports Miinister and then wanted his revenge by
    shouting 70000 crores looted

    2) Digvijay and Amul Baba pitching for the PM’s seat for which they wanted to show MMS was weak

    3) Two old men– Pranab and Chidu doing kushti for the hot seat.

    4) All the possible scams which could have been easily tackled but the ofensive spokesmen fo the party like Manish Tewari ended up alientaing the people of India and making them feel that the government was hiding something

    These are lessons which future governments must learn…

    [Reply]

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @Vijay_Kumar
    Structurally, blogs are better received and understood if written concisely. So I find your protest over I not naming the people you have named a trifle misplaced.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Vinod Sharma

    I think it would be a good thing for the Congress to identify the bad apples.

    a) One attack by Makan on Mani Aiyar, has sent him reeling and probably made him look like an idiot who feels superior becasue of his English. Somebody could have done that an year back. :) If you remember I had been raising this issue an year back.

    b) The actually figure of 1760000 crores loss is an oxymoron. Had the COngress conceded that about 3-4000 crores has gone as kickbacks and the actul losses cannot be computed because hindisght wisdom is easy but the policy was univerally accepted then, it could have saved the situation.

    Instead it sent its Don quixote’s and Sanchos to attack the public, alienating everyone.

    c) The antics of Rahul Baba in making light of the LeT threat and Digviansh of cutting down MMS’s authority have only made the government look weak and corrupt. These are self goals UPA scored and will suffer for it.

    I guess you are firmly aligned to the UPA. However in case you and the UPA needs serious advice on PR… you can always hire me !

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I lost the message, as I do not have Devanagari fonts – so you can sing that song on my behalf to yourself and dance if you like.

    In any case, there you are – shooting the messenger(s) – I did not ask you to reconfirm my statement of fact.

    Kyoon logon kaa waqt barbaad karte ho, yaa yeh bhi “Time Pass” kaa chakkar hai?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    How very true of Ravi to have said about you.

    You cannot read on the line or between the lines.

    In any case, I do not a need a certificate about my credentials from you, they are not worth the paper they are written on. You know very well what one does with such certificates.

    The fact that you keep giving out “certificates” (in addition to praising the RSS and its junior monsters and slamming everybody else) only shows the limit of your intelligence. Yet to see any worthwhile contribution from you on any subject or a topic.

    I hope your vocabulary is just good enough to follow what I am saying, given your intelligence deficit. Good luck.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @ Shenoy, Mohan and Vijay

    I think the nation is suffering becasue fo poor governance.

    Private industry moves on the profit motive and so one part of the country moves on. But wherever government intervention is required, we have now stagnated.

    There is no comprehensive plan to tackle law and order, nor to tackle terrorism. Competitve populism will soon tacke a toll of economic growth.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Can I add a small piece?

    The image of India, in our own eyes, and that of the world has literally rolled down the slope in the past one year….

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Vinod,
    The questions I’ve raised lack novelty. They are as old as the Himalayas. So are the answers to these posers.
    Vinod, it is worth reading your post only for the above line.
    Congress is corrupt; so is BJP.
    Congress is riven with factionalism; so is BJP. Et tu, CPM!
    If Argal is BJP’s whistleblower; then Bhatt is Congress’.
    Pranab and Chidu fighting? Oh, come on! Isn’t Modi undermining Advani?
    Essentially, guys- nothing to choose between Congress and BJP on corruption and discipline.
    Now that Soniaji is back, discipline in Congress will return. Jai ho!
    Wah, bhai wah. Brilliant analysis. Repeat ad nauseum blog after blog.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Ashish,
    Thats a good analysis. I read Mr Vinod Sharma’s blog to see how someone who is a professional journalist, can week after week, churn out weak blogs lacking substance, insight. Are there no minimum standards to be met ?
    But I have not given up hope.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,
    Sharmaji’s post betrays Congress Party’s over centralised decision making. Something more than at par with BJP-RSS relationship.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Another question -
    Do you really , I mean “really”, see BJP or CPI/CPM as an alternative ?
    Try being honest when you answer this. Maybe – a quick run through at policy positions (if you find any) could be of help.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mahesh,
    I plan to indulge in some seasonal “bong-ness”/ “mad-ness” (is there a difference?) today and tomorrow- it is Durga-puja time.
    I promise to come back to this- if possible tonight or by Dussehra. To all Bongs, honorary Bongs, honorable Bongs and the dishonorable ones too (!)- happy Durgapuja. To all others, welcome to the nearest Pandal for Anjali and Bhog, specially the Bhog.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I will be going to the one in east london ,, in pajama punjabi , just because somebody has invited me.Durga puja in Delhi , I wonder is it the same feeling in london. NDTV does all kinds of shows NEVER EVER A FULL LENGTH PROGRAMME ON DURGA PUJA, the artistic work in calcutta surely cannot be replicated in Delhi. The pujas in Uk get splintered all the time , Classical bengali cockroach syndrome , SOME KNOW IT SO WELL THEY ACTUALLY PRACTICE IT.

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @AshishC
    When history repeats itself, it has to be reported, You may find it comical or farcical. What I have written is a chronicle.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Mahesh and Gopi

    I would not predict the disintegration of any party including the BJP. Ups and downs, yes.

    In 2004, the pundits did not give the Congress any chance and Advani – based on his party’s secret survey (never made public) – lamented the fact that the Grand Old Party would not even win 100 seats. What actually transpired is history.

    The present situation in the Congress is precarious indeed. Sonia Gandhi may be the cementing force, but is not politically savvy. Perhaps, she needs to change her political advisers – Sharad Pawar types. The real Sharad Pawar runs his own party and yet has maintained his clout (with just 9 MPs) – he is 3rd in the official pecking order in the Cabinet – a fact the Congress sycophants resent tremendously and these sycophants keep making noises every few months about the desirability of NCP’s merger with the Congress with sole purpose to show him his “place” – that is just one of them.

    For the moment the Comrades have become irrelevant, but who can predict the future – they may bounce back (after a total rethink and revamp, especially on the economic front, on their part), perhaps after many down the years – not in 2014.

    What can one say about the BJP? The best is by our friend here Gopi – the BJP works overtime to lose elections. How come? Is it because it is intrinsically intertwined with their core deology or the leadership is inept? Any answers!

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Mahesh,
    The economic policy of BJP does not even count?
    On the strength of the one full term BJP completed in power- I do remember a few very significant initiaitives.
    I will concede though that during the Vajpayee era, I used to read Dubashi’s economic prescriptions and wonder if he actually is a member of the CPM! Luckily, such people were kept out of policymaking and government.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “On the strength of the one full term BJP completed in power- I do remember a few very significant initiaitives.”
    Care to enlighten me and others ?
    p.s. : Nothing personal . We both know it.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Mahesh;
    I picked up this without even reading you. have not interacted with you since long. man, it is a treat to interact with you and manohar, though, we are not on the same page all the time. bhai, jindagi main kuchh to halchal ho!!

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    1. The Fiscal responsibility act
    2. The Golden Quadrilateral
    (No disclaimers needed :) ; not from you anyway.)

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    My perspective (along with many in my age group — below 35) is that BJP has a huge potential, either alone, or with partners, to win the next elections.

    We also feel that they(BJP) should not force a mid-term election; things should go its natural direction – a totally dysfunctional central govt, existing and new corruption scandals, inflation, deceleration of growth – all these will culminate into a natural state when people will vote for anybody but congress.

    BJP should stray from the fray and focus on differentiating items. Yatra etc is neither a vote puller nor a branding vehicle. Advani should be dissuaded, especially when his party hands are involved in the mining scandal.

    They should leverage the post Anna mood – clean administration, love for the country. Should hammer on unsolved terrorist cases, should compare and contrast BJP states growth vs others (put Mayawati in her place too). If Gujrat, with all its industry, can deliver electricity 24 x 7to residential and industrial customers, that should be in their electioneering slogan

    Nation’s wealth, nation’s youth, nation’s food, nation’s security — appealing messages delivered with consistency by telegenic personalities, coupled with feet on the ground, with capable partners like Jaya and Nitish; may be Naidu too — should play well. Keep Gadkiri behind the scenes.

    The 40 plus seats of Andhra Pradesh is a wild card. Telengana, Jagan, and other factions make it possible for a BJP alliance to win few seats there. Couple it with the 39 Jaya will deliver, and maintaining/improving the Karnataka position (BJP won comfortably in the koppel byeelection) — BJP alliance should be able to obtain 65-70 seats from South India.( vs a 20 or below for UPA)

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    @ SHOEB

    Nice analysis, Bjp would be a fool to foul this up. I had grave reservations about Modi’s fast but the wily bugger pulled it off. The presence of Gujrati muslims in large numbers at his fast was an indication of people wanting to move on.

    His comment about not giving special treatment to any group but to treat everyone as a Gujrati was bold stuff indeed- given the caste riven electoral politics post Mandal. Hope Jaya too does not foul it up, although her toxic interview with abrasive Karan Thapar shows she stiil has to become media savvy- she has to learn how to swim past snappy alligators.

    BTW, I am staying at Radisson’s in Mahabalipuram this thurs-sat for a wedding, on the rare chance you are around it would be nice to treat you to a drink or meal ?

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Sorry guys this gem got lost in the last blog.

    It deserves your full consideration.

    ____________________________________________________

    This was posted by RajeevS

    F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..
    A Like Reply 1 day ago in reply to engrich 0 Like
    F .

    ____________________________________________________

    Dr Mishra…I do not expect a comment from you, but I am eternal optimist.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    OK Ravi;
    I will answer this.
    This was felony.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi,
    I was sure that you will pick this up. It was meant for you…A sikh getting worked up if Islam is bashed but uses most foul words himself for hindu gods and doesn’t care a bit about sikh gurus.

    Why don’t you accept that you are a muslim and stop this nautanki?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I rest my case.

    I also rest the case that Dr Mishra is severly compromised. His status as a lay preacher for Hinduism is confirmed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Super like – a la Facebook!!

    Kya Miliye Aise Logon Se,
    Jinki Fithrath Chupi Rahe,
    Nakli Chehera Saamne Aaye,
    Asli Surath Chupi Rahe…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So Ishwar, let me see if I understand what you are SUPPORTING here.

    1. You believe, like RajeevS, that I am a Muslim hiding behind a Hindu identity.
    2. You believe Rajeev said those foul words about Mohammad, not because he believes them, but because in a Machiavellian way it was trap set for me, into which I have fallen.
    If any of the above two statements are correct then they speak volumes about you, and bugger all about me.

    Thank you and bye.

  • Dr Mishra

    BOOM BOOM”””””””’

    The man in the khaki shorts stands alone, a figure of scorn.

    And yet when there is the earthquake in Gujrat or when the Sikhs are being murdered in Delhi, or when the bihari labourers are being slaughtered by the khalistanis, the cadres are the FIRST to arrive on the scene.

    The first to donate blood when 1962 and 1965 wars broke out. Rewarded by Nehru by inclusion in the ? ‘1963 republic day parade. Dr Ambedkar (my hero) enthused about them for their abolition of caste in the shakhas. They trained dalits to become temple priests.

    I could go on and on about their good points- their weak ones are too well known. For 99% of Indians who enter politics do so to make tons of money. And therefore joining the congress is logical for them, ideology be damned. Not so for the unsung cadre, not unlike the nameless faceless lakhs who agitated behind Anna.

    If only there was a way of harnessing the good in these cadres to make them a political force

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Mishraji.
    hundred percent with you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    In 1996, there was a mid-air collision between Saudia Airlines and kazhakhastan airlines planes, killing 350 passengers.over a village in Haryana. The RSS volunteers were the first on the spot who organised retrieval of dead bodies and assisted the civil authorities in all possible ways so as to reduce the grief of the family members.

    In my native place near Mangalore, River Nethravathi causes floods every year. And every year it is the RSS volunteers who are trained to render evacuation of families and belongings to safe places. A number of Muslim families (as well as those congressmen who hate RSS too) get assisted. Ours was one of the families who hated the RSS in those days but still took help from them in the hour of need, because when the town gets flooded in the night, the people only pray their respective gods to provide the services of these much hated RSS chaddiwalahs.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Ashish;
    This guy from berkshire talking abot Wendy Niger? Has he read the book? it is in my library and Chicago is half an hour flight from my place. he is very selective and will look for only fault lines.
    I am RSS and I am Communist. But both are Indians.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Sorry Ashish;
    Very plebian. Tum karo to Raslila, hum karen to Character Dhila. this is for Ravidasia.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Mishraji;
    When I asked about sins of Savarkar, there was obfuscation. Tell me about his sins and not BS.This is for one you know whom.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I will not intrude on personal grief.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ha!

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    dr misra and pankaj,another piece of great bravery by veer savarkar,extract from his apology letter,

    What else can you expect of RSS? Deception is their game. Look at their credentials as a nationalist party. Veer Savarkar their icon as a freedom fighter wrote a clemency petition to the British govt:

    “Now no man having the good of India and humanity at heart will blindly step on the thorny paths which in the excited and hopeless situation of India in 1906-1907 beguiled us from the path of peace and progress. Therefore if the government in their manifold beneficence and mercy release me, I for one cannot but be the staunchest advocate of constitutional progress and loyalty to the English Government, which is the foremost condition of that progress… . Moreover my conversion to the constitutional line would bring back all those misled young men in India and abroad who were once looking up to me as their guide. I am ready to serve the government in any capacity they like, for as my conversion is conscientious so I hope my future conduct would be. By keeping me in jail nothing can be got in comparison to what would be otherwise. The Mighty alone can afford to be merciful and therefore where else can the prodigal son return but to the parental doors of the government? Hoping your honour will kindly take into notion these points.” Mark the words “loyalty to the English government.”

    This shows that Savarkar offerred to collaborate with the British. No Congress freedom fighter icon did. They never asked for clemency. Never offered to collaborate with the British

    Anonymous Reply:

    Doc Mishra/ Dr Pankaj
    Please have this crazy guy’s head examined!

    engrich Reply:

    binoy challange if anything is wrong.his apology letter is avilable in archive.main crime of modi ,was not his involvement in riot.he trumpled the democratc institutions.tried to covert india into somalia.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Binoy TRUTH HURTS, what you have read is a FACT

    engrich Reply:

    ravi bhai u will agree that,
    Hindutva, the unique Indian form of Indian fascism, is the modern incarnation of Brahminism. Although it projects itself as the defender of the ‘Hindu’ community against imagined ‘enemies’, such as Muslims and Christians, it is actually premised on an unrelenting hostility towards the vast majority of the so-called ‘Hindus’ themselves-Dalits, Shudras and tribals. The very basis of what is today called Hinduism is the caste system, which is specifically geared to preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste hegemony that is based on the systematic exploitation and oppression of the so-called ‘lower’ castes. Hindutva, therefore, is not to be characterized as ‘Hindu communalism’ as such, as it does not represent the interests of all so-called ‘Hindus’ as such. As numerous writers have pointed out, a more apt description of Hindutva is that it is the contemporary form of Brahminism. In other words, Hindutva may be defined as Brahminical fascism.
    This being the case, Hindutva cannot be countered simply through pious appeals to ‘Hindu-Muslim unity’. The fatal mistake that secularists have consistently been making is to see Hindutva as simply ‘Hindu communalism’. Consequently, they have been trying, ineffectively, to combat it simply by invoking a common ethical impulse that they argue underlies the different religions. Since Hindutva represents the contemporary agenda of Brahminism, it poses an immense threat not just to the Muslims of the country, but equally, or perhaps even more so, to the vast majority of the so-called ‘Hindus’ themselves-the Dalits, Shudras and tribals, who, taken together, form more than 70 per cent of the country’s population as a whole-the Bahujan Samaj. Clearly, Hindutva aims at preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste rule and ‘lower’ caste slavery, inspired by a vision that draws on the cruel laws that the Brahminical scriptures prescribe for the ‘lower’ castes. the
    Hindu Right aims at ‘denying [.] Dalits of all human rights’[1], and the same applies for its implications for other members of the Bahujan Samaj. The most effective way of countering Hindutva is, therefore, to mobilize these marginalized groups against the Hindutva forces by exposing the grave threats that the Hindutva agenda poses for them. In other words, highlighting the menacing implications of Hindutva for the Dalit-Bahujans is the surest way to combat Hindutva, for it is they who are today being so assiduously used by ‘upper’ caste forces as foot-soldiers in their pogroms against Muslims and Christians, thus threatening to drive the country to the brink of civil war. The Dalit-Bahujans account for the vast majority of the Indian population, and if they are able to see through the Brahminical designs behind the Hindutva project, Hindutva would die a natural death.
    This booklet is a critique of Hindutva from a Dalit-Bahujan perspective. It focuses on what Hindutva means for the Dalit-Bahujans, showing how it is essentially geared to preserving and promoting ‘upper’ caste Hindu rule and suppressing the stirrings of revolt that are now becoming increasingly visible among the ‘low’ caste majority low caste majority.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    savarkar was homosexual like most of jew.he was fighting for national unity and liberation of india from britishers before going to jail..in andaman jail he was brainwashed by zoinist jailer.who converted him fascist.then he joined hands with british occupiers,was spying for them and responsible for the arrest of many many sincere freedom fighters.mainly responsible for partition blood bath.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    The best is to Google and do some selective reading from a variety of sources, to get a balanced perspective.

    He has been a controversial figure, hence there may be very extreme views on him.

    Here are two links for you to take view on him.

    http://www.savarkar.org/

    http://www.hvk.org/articles/1196/0047.html

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I will. I do not speak with preconceived ideas, but life makes everyone a cynic, particularly in present day times.So much Makkari is all around.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Ashish

    Do you like my Avatar.

    I had it made just so I could put a smile on your face.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    LOL, welcome Mohan Bhagwat..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    your “avatar” is Ram Autar. Is there anything to like him?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    I will settle for that.

    Like Ram is not bad at all.

    However, since you are a south Indian, you probably look like Ravan.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Pankaj

    I am conscious of the fact that you may be missing some of the context.

    Both RajeevS and Dr Mishra were extremely enthusiastic in their condemnation of my blasphemous rant. In fact, they have not let me forget it, despite public apology.

    I rest my case. No more will be said about this.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ravi;
    We are not on the same page but I will not say or bad mouth anything about Prophet. He was a revolutionary in his time, for betterment of society. I can only go that far.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Your friend has no such reservation.

    Note absence of names who have not joined in with you for condemnation.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Note absence of names who have not joined in with you for condemnation”.

    Fair weather friends. Anyone?

    Ravi Reply:

    Manohar

    When I said some thing unpleasant against Ram. RajeevS, Dr Mishra, BV Shenoy, Balwinder, etc joined in the chorus of condemnation.

    Now that RajeevS has been grossly abusive the Prophet of Islam, these people are silent.

    People can draw their own conclusions.

  • Anonymous

    one more humble attempt to make Pandit Mishra NANGA and flog him , in this blog. HE WAS GOING GA GA ABOUT RSS AND ITS LOVE FOR DALITS. Can snake not bite even if feed them milk.
    Excerpts from the Secret Circular No.411 issued by the RSS:

    […] Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes are to be recruited to the party so as to increase the volunteers to fight against the Ambedkarites and Mussalmans.

    Hindutva should be preached with a vengeance among physicians and pharmacists so that, with their help, time expired [sic.] and spurious medicines might be distributed amongst the Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Scheduled Tribes. The newborn infants of Shudras, Ati-Shudras, Mussalmans, Christians and the like should be crippled by administering injections to them. To this end, there should be a show of blood-donation camps.

    Encouragement and instigation should be carried on [sic.] more vigorously so that the womenfolk of Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Christians live by prostitution.

    Plans should be made more fool-proof so that the people of the Scheduled Castes, Backward Classes, Musslamans and Christians, especially the Ambedkarites, become crippled by taking in [sic.] harmful eatables.

    Special attention should be given to the students of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so as to make them read the history written according to our dictates.

    During riots the women of Mussalmans and Scheduled Castes should be gang-raped. Friends and acquaintances cannot be spared. The work should proceed on the Surat model.

    Publication of writings against Mussalmans, Christians, Buddhists and Ambedkarites should be accelerated. Essays and writings should be published in such a way as to prove that Ashoka was opposed to the Aryans.

    All literature opposed to Hindus and Brahmins are [sic.] to be destroyed. Dalits, Mussalmans, Christians and Ambedkarites should be searched out. Care should be taken to see that this literature do [sic.] not reach public places. Hindu literature is to apply [sic.] to the Backward Classes and Ambedkarites.

    The demand by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for filling in the backlog vacancies in services shall by no means be met. Watch should be kept to see that their demands for entry and promotion in government, non-government or semi-government institutions are to be rejected and their service records are destroyed with damaging reports.

    Measures should be taken to make the prejudices amongst Scheduled Castes and Backward people more deep-rooted. To this end, help must be taken from saints and ascetics.

    Attacks should be started with vigour against equality, preaching communists [sic.], Ambedkarites, Islamic teachers, Christian missionaries and neighbours [?].

    Assaults should be made on Ambedkar’s statues with greater efforts.

    Dalit and Muslim writers are to be recruited to the party and by them the essays and literature opposed to the Dalits, Ambedkarites and Mussalmans written and preached. Attention is to be paid to see that these writings are properly edited and preached [sic.].

    Those opposed to Hindutva are to be murdered through false encounters. For this work the help of the police and semi-military [sic.] forces should always be taken.granted.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Vinodji;
    Khase badmash ho. Purana blog abhi tak response le raha hai!!!. Would like to meet you in Delhi. Hindustan Times building is a land mark at KG Raod, Am I correct? I take a right or left turn at Scindia house and there you are. Once I crossed my path with Sardarji, You knpow, khushwanta.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Smelly cockroach Dr Shan of darnley street, aapka hi intezaar tha. This secret RSSdocument, how did u find it . Somehow any posr from you which does not have white arsee worship from u, seems strange.
    You feeling okay, forgotten to take your penicillin today ??

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    i am posting something which everybody knows BUT WILFULLY DENIES, LET HONESTY PREVAIL
    ‘THE SECOND OPEN LETTER OF TRUE RAM SEVAKS’

    “Let the Ambedkarite Harijans who oppose the Hindutva ideology understand. We will not allow them [to] mix with even the soil of Hindustan. Today, time is in our hands. Hindutva is the ideology of true Hindus [and] it never accepts the Harijans who are the offspring of the untouchable Ambedkar. The Ambedkarite Harijans, Bhangis, Tribals and the untouchable Shudra castes who believe in Ambedkar do not have any right to give speeches or criticize the Hindutva ideology in Hindustan, because as a dog raises its leg and urinates whenever there is a question or discussion related to the Hindutva ideology these Ambedkarites, Harijans, Bhangis, Adivasis and other untouchable low castes sling their dirt on the Hindutva ideology or show their caste [their low birth] by speaking abusively about it.

    Now Hindutva has become aware [sic.] and it is time to teach these Ambedkarite untouchable Harijans a lesson. Not even the Miyans [Muslims] can come to their aid now. Understanding the Hindutva ideology requires a large heart. What will these untouchable Ambedkarites, who raise their leg and urinate, understand of the Hindutva ideology?

    The fact that the Honorable Narendra Modi has gained a large victory in Gujarat has been because of the Hindutva ideology, not because of the untouchable Harijans [or because of] the Ambedkarite ideology. Narendrabhai has gained victory single-handedly in Gujarat because he explained the true ideology of Hindutva [..]

    Vishwa Hindu Parishad, 11 Mahalaxmi Society, Paldi, Karnavati-380007.[4]

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shan;
    Source please. And if it is correct, even in Gujarat, I am ready to do Pigsticking, a forgotten game.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Darned Shaan Nirad Babu,

    now you have truly spoken like a Tajender possessed by the spirit of Osama.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I HAD DEROBED DEOBANDI IN PREVIOUS BLOGS, if you are a regular follower for two years you should know. DEOBANDI is BIGOTRY INCARNATE, RSS IS BRAMHINICAL HEGEMONY

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Thanks;
    I will read it.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan
    i believe party solidarity is a goner..
    One of the charasteristcs of US politics has been the emergencce of senators/congressmen who are RINOs and DINOs (repubs aNd democrats In name only).. democratic senator Nelson from Nebraska, dem senator Marie Laudreu from Louisiana, etc) They always vote based on their constituencies and not bon any party basis..

    Looks like Imdia is moving in a similar track with regional parties, or more indepemdent politicos within the major paryties…may not be necessarily bad

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    We too have COINS-congressmen in name and shame.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    That was really a good one , Shenoy Saab

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    Shenoy: Phuuurrt (Passes wind noisely)

    Pankaj: Wah Wah, Kya yeh Raag Malkauns Tha.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ravi

    It is a season of CTs.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Wow, Manohar, this Jugalbandi!!!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    Good one.

    Yahaan par to “Full Orchestras” aadi chalte hain, to ek jugalbandi kyaa cheez hai. !!!

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    This is your complaint or observation? why you have support of only Ravi?

    Ravi Reply:

    :)

    Anonymous Reply:

    Observation.No offence meant towards you.

    I am not here to seek support, if no one supports me, so be it. I stand by whatever I post, even if I am in a minority of one on the issues. Some agree with me and some do not – that is life. It is about debates and enriching oneself – you get to know other view points.

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Binoy Hegde , This is the reason why American senators can vote independently without toeing the partyline.

    While members of Congress often vote along party lines, the influence of the whip is weaker than in the UK system. For one thing, much money is raised by individual candidates, and members of Congress are almost never ejected from a party. In addition, because preselection of candidates for office is generally done through primary elections open to a wide number of voters, it is difficult for the national party to deselect a member of Congress who defies his party in a way that pleases his or her constituency.

    Because members of Congress cannot serve simultaneously in executive positions, a whip in the United States cannot bargain with a member by using as an inducement the possibility of promotion or demotion in a sitting administration. There is, however, a highly structured committee system in both houses of Congress, and a whip may be able to use promotion or demotion within that system instead. In the House of Representatives in particular, the influence of a single member individually is relatively small and therefore depends a great deal on the member’s seniority—that is, in most cases, on the length of time the member has held office.

    Whips in the United States, then, are less menacing in their techniques than in the United Kingdom.

    [Reply]

  • Ramesh Talwani

    bernard shaw ’s remark that “POLITICS IS THE LAST GAME FOR SCOUNDRELS” IS APT EVEN TODAY.
    WHAT ABOUT JOURNALIST?
    MY QUESTION TO YOU MR SHARMA IS ,WHY DONOT YOU TALK OF REAL ISSUES?
    WHY DONOT YOU TALK OF CONTINUED CHINESE INTRUSION OR SUCH IMPORTANT ISSUES?
    ANY HOME OR PARTY WITHOUT REAL LEADER IS BOUND TO BE THE WAY CONGRESS PARTY BEHAVES.CRISIS OF LEADERSHIP IS THERE.
    FOR US NATION IS IMPORTANT NOT INDIVIDUAL PERSON OR PARTIES.
    WHY DONOT YOU TAKE ONE ISSUE AND PRESENT IT THREADBARE AS KARAN THAPAR DOES!

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Cockroach DR SHAN wasted my time, came up with a silly link. Look at your idiotic shrill comment below “”"prediction of election is imperfect….”"”
    then u come up with 4paras of complete $hit, shrieking boasting like he is saying something imp. Last blog he said jews are one race, forgot about black african jews. Moron, forget tajender. Ban dr shan instead for boredom

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    pankaj and doc mishra,WHAT RSS IS CAN BE judged by the circular which they distributed to their members,

    . In his incisive study of the Hindutva phenomenon, titled Saffron Fascism, Shyam Chand, a Dalit scholar and activist who served for many years as member of the Haryana Legislative Assembly, quotes from a secret circular sent out by the RSS to its preachers. It clearly indicates the sinister Brahminical strategy of using the Dalit-Bahujans to attack the Muslims and Christians, while at the same time aiming to keep the Dalit-Bahujans under the permanent slavery of the ‘upper’ castes.
    Excerpts from Secret Circular No.411 issued by the RSS:
    [.] Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes are to be recruited to the party so as to increase the volunteers to fight against the Ambedkarites and Mussalmans.
    Hindutva should be preached with a vengeance among physicians and pharmacists so that, with their help, time expired [sic.] and spurious medicines might be distributed amongst the Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Scheduled Tribes. The newborn infants of Shudras, Ati-Shudras, Mussalmans, Christians and the like should be crippled by administering injections to them. To this end, there should be a show of blood-donation camps.
    Encouragement and instigation should be carried on [sic.] more vigorously so that the womenfolk of Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Christians live by prostitution.
    Plans should be made more foolproof so that the people of the Scheduled Castes, Backward Classes, Musslamans and Christians, especially the Ambedkarites, become crippled by taking in [sic.] harmful eatables.
    Special attention should be given to the students of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so as to make them read the history written according to our dictates.
    During riots the women of Mussalmans and Scheduled Castes should be gang-raped. Friends and acquaintances cannot be spared. The work should proceed on the Surat model.
    Publication of writings against Mussalmans, Christians, Buddhists and Ambedkarites should be accelerated. Essays and writings should be published in such a way as to prove that Ashoka was opposed to the Aryans.
    All literature opposed to Hindus and Brahmins are [sic.] to be destroyed. Dalits, Mussalmans, Christians and Ambedkarites should be searched out. Care should be taken to see that this literature do [sic.] not reach public places. Hindu literature is to apply [sic.] to the Backward Classes and Ambedkarites.
    The demand by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for filling in the backlog vacancies in services shall by no means be met. Watch should be kept to see that their demands for entry and promotion in government, non-government or semi-government institutions are to be rejected and their service records are destroyed with damaging reports.
    Measures should be taken to make the prejudices amongst Scheduled Castes and Backward people more deep-rooted. To this end, help must be taken from saints and ascetics.

    Attacks should be started with vigour against equality, preaching communists [sic.], Ambedkarites, Islamic teachers, Christian missionaries and neighbours [?].
    Assaults should be made on Ambedkar’s statues with greater efforts.
    Dalit and Muslim writers are to be recruited to the party and by them essays and literature opposed to the Dalits, Ambedkarites and Mussalmans written and preached [sic.]. Attention is to be paid to see that these writings are properly edited and preached [sic.].
    Those opposed to Hindutva are to be murdered through false encounters. For this work the help of the police and semi-military [sic.] forces should always be taken.”[2]
    *
    In the face of this circular, no more evidence is needed to show what Hindutva actually bodes for the Dalit-Bahujans. It circular very clearly indicates that Hindutva aims essentially at preserving the oppression of the Dalit-Bahujans, in addition to the Muslims and Christians, on which the entire edifice of Brahminism stands.

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    Historical Roots of Hindutva

    The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) was established in 1925 by K.B.Hedgewar, a Maharashtrian Brahmin. Initially, almost all its members were Brahmins, and even today, its top level leaders are almost entirely from the ‘upper’ castes, particularly Brahmins. The RSS was founded at a time when Maharashtra was witnessing a powerful movement of revolt among the ‘lower’ castes against ‘upper’ caste tyranny led by such stalwarts as Mahatma Jotiba Phule and Dr. Ambedkar. The establishment of the RSS at this time was hardly coincidental. Rather, it is apparent that the rise of ‘lower’ caste consciousness and protest against ‘upper’ caste hegemony was a key factor in the setting up of the RSS. The spread of the RSS in other parts of the country can also be explained on similar lines. Feeling increasingly threatened by the growing awareness and militancy among the ‘lower’ castes, ‘upper’ caste leaders found in the ideology of Hindutva a convenient way to co-opt the ‘lower’ castes and to divert their wrath from their real oppressors (the ‘upper’ castes/classes) onto imagined enemies in the form of Muslims, Christians and communists. By appealing to the notion of an imagined ‘Hindu nation’ and ‘Hindu community’, Hindutva ideologues (almost all Brahmins) sought to deny the existence of internal caste and class contradictions among the so-called ‘Hindus’. This denial aimed at drawing the ‘lower’ castes behind the ‘upper’ castes, and to destroy ‘lower’ caste movements of protest against ‘upper’ caste hegemony. Accordingly, the plight of the ‘lower’ castes was sought to be explained away as a result of alleged Muslim or Christian ‘persecution’, while the ‘Hindu’ period of history was glorified as a ‘golden age’. In this rewriting of history, the oppression of the ‘lower’ castes that saw its genesis in the so-called ‘golden age’ was completely ignored. So, too, was the inconvenient fact that the oppression of the ‘lower’ castes is specifically mentioned and prescribed in all the Brahminical scriptures.
    Yet, the projection of the notion of a united ‘Hindu nation’ was only at the level of rhetoric. In actual fact, the proponents of Hindutva sought to carefully preserve the exploitative caste-class system by conveniently remaining silent on it. And this continues to be the case till today. Not surprisingly, the Hindutvawadais have never taken up any militant struggles for the rights of the Dalits, for distribution of land to the poor, for the rights of workers and tribals and so on. Instead, they have consistently supported the interests of the capitalist-feudal-Brahminical elites. Not surprisingly, the core support-base of the Hindutva movement since its inception onwards has consisted of landlords, former rulers of princely states, industrialists, merchants, priests-’upper’ castes in general, all of whose interests are diametrically opposed to the Dalit-Bahujans’, and whose hegemony is based on their systematic subjugation.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    All,

    It looks like this format allows a free access to Ram Avtar /Tajender/Gingrich/Lakshman to abuse the intelligence and common sense of the participants. This rabid Islamist destroyed Zia’s blogs; he will do the same here, with his ranting on Jews, Brahmins, Zionists, Upper Caste, you name what.

    I do not want to see/read that; so I have decided not to blog here until his access is disabled..

    All the best for you!;

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Benoy;
    Do not do that. that will be defeat of intelligence and victory of dumbs. just ignore him.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    dear benoy, if anything is wrong pls tell me.savarkar apology letter is avilable u can check it.circular was distributed in haryana assemly.moreover they are doing this.a doctor who injected 57 muslim ladies with hepatitus b injection is made minister in modi ministry as a reward.he is minister today.

    from last 10 year they were keeping the bombs while blaming on muslims.game was like this,
    1.rss goons will plant the bomb
    2.brhmnst of intellence burea will leak wrong information saying IM HUJI LET are involve.media will quickly publish this and repeating this again and again.muslim boys will be arrested.those who can pay are nationalist those who cannot are terrorist and shot in false encounter.

    from last 15years 20000 muslim lads are languishing in various jails of india.muslims were declared as terrorist,my samdhi with hindu wife has to bring 10 bania guarantors to get accomodation in delhi.
    when karkare caught the laptop of purohit and dayanad pandey he found that military training to overthrow democratic goverment was goining on in 53 places.
    they wanted to convert india into another somalia.anna movement was an effort in this direction.i salute sonia jee for saving india.she is great lady.LEKIN BAKRE KE MAA KAB TAK KHAIR MANAE GEE.manmohanjee also showed his maturity and wisdom in handling this crisis.
    what can i do pundit hegde.truth is sour.u people will never leave habit of biting biting and biting.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    just ignore him.

    u people
    have no other option.as truth is not with u.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Binoy

    If you do not like / approve what he writes, you have the option to ignore him. Do not give him or anybody else any undue importance by calling for expulsion.

    Having said, there are few others here, who are better candidates for such an action – based on grounds you have mentioned.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The only consolation is that this political crisis has occurred midway during the life of the Parliament.

    Hopefully, the national parties will realise the gravity of the situation and go for a major course correction in their discourse and action. Their time starts now.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Binoy, Mishra, Pankaj, Rajeev,

    I agree that great men or holy men including prophets of other communities should be spared criticism of vile nature. But then, it should be applied to Hindu gods, saints, holy men also

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    u can criticize but not abuse.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    Benoy Hegde is right, this blog is going the Zia way. The Islamophobic statements as well as statements like this are rancid- engrich- savarkar was homosexual like most of jew….’

    Vinodji, your blog, you decide. I leave.

    SHOEB, waiting to hear from u reg Mahabalipuram (see below)

    [Reply]

    Vinod Sharma Reply:

    @Dr Mishra
    I respect your right to state your views. You must appreciate that others too have that right. So please don’t quit. Stay put and argue. That will show your democratic spirit. I will certainly intervene when anybody insults you or gets (God forbid) abusive.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Dr.Mishra,

    Tajender was as abusive of Hindus and Hinduism then as the Gingrich the gangrene is today abusive of the same things. What, then is the difference then, when he was expelled, and Now?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    tell me what i abuse.rss is fascist political organiztion.nothing to do with hindus in general

    engrich Reply:

    i dont abuse but i hate rss

    engrich Reply:

    dr saheb savarkarwas homosexual.chitpavans and khazari jew have same dna.even same habits.they are also vegetarians.chitpavans came to india from same area.both are evil planners and secret instigators of all the holocausts.capitalists of new york created communism to kill christians.hindutva is fabricated to kill indians.today news has has come that hitler died in argentinain 60s.he was jew. .among them it is like disease.it is because of their influence in american establishment ,that homosexuality has been given respect.. hegdewar too was homosexual.ur rss leaning has hurted me.being a doctor u should be life giver not taker.i may have difference of opinion but i like u and resoect u.it is because of this link that butchers of america and europe are supported only and only by high caste indians.other part of world they are met with shoes.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Bliss22, a sweet kiss to you, WHY NOT VERIFY FOR YOURSELF, go to WIKIPEDIA, or just type RSS and DALIT, your ignorance will disappear

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Engrich naam , islam jiska jaam.
    I will agree that what you write, there is fair bit of truth in it , AS ALSO UTTER RUBBISH OF JEWISH JAILOR TEACHING SAVARKAR LESSONS IN FASCISM.
    However PLEASE WRITE ON THE CURRENT STATE OF ISLAMIC WORLD.
    Would you concede that all the ILLS THAT BEDEVILLS islamic world is due to ADHERING to a GARBAGE called HADITH written 800 yrs after prophet’s death from HEARSAY. also would you agree WITHOUT OIL, islamic countries WOULD BE ALL GREATER SOMALIA . That unless all ISLAMIC countries become SECULAR and give its citizens FULL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSSION , they will be of only interest to the HUMANITY AT LARGE, TILL THE OIL LAST. If a substitute is found , ISLAMIC COUNTRIES WILL REVERT TO ZAHILIA.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,

    I was shocked to read the secret curcular of RSS which you posted earlier.
    If it is true and if RSS is following this path than this organisation should
    be banned immdiately . I would like to know when this circular was
    written and when did this came in lime light.? Has any senior leader of
    RSS confirmed the authentication of this circular. ?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    It has been banned twice in 60 years.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ MOhan

    I am not a RSS guy. But I can tell you it is a fake circular. created by the Congress disinformation cell some years back.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ha ha ha.

    So we must add one more category to the excuses offered.

    Oh this is a fake circular.

    Fake Ravi, Fake Tajinder, Fake Prabhat, Fake Blog, Fake Walrus Mustache, everything fake except innane tuk bandhi’s by the Kavi Raj from VyasKot.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ohh!! The only thing original out here is an ISI fundoo called Ravi who emerges out of T U R D Tajendar’s petticoat !!

    Ha haha !!

    Ravi Reply:

    Is that the best you can do.

    Pathetic in C minor

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pasthetic in c minor is better than Ravi in T U R D Tajendar’s petticoat !!

    HA HA AHAH !!!

    Anonymous Reply:

    @MohanR, It is not a FAKE circular.In the internet if you search, there are articles just on the AUTHENTICITY of the document. It fist appeared in Assam in 1995 . I am not sure if it originated in NAGPUR, or was it some local SHAKAS gone crazy. Though I have not seen a clear cut rebuttal from Nagpur from that period, perhaps I need more time to research.
    However THERE IS NO DOUBT , RSS is BRAMHMINICAL HEGEMONY BY BACKDOOR..
    I will join RSS , the day they have a MUSLIM president or preferably a Gen Secretary

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    What does a Muslim preident has to do with Brahminical hegemony… just trying to understand where you are coming from.

    BTW, I would stop supporting the RSS the day I know someone like you is a member.

    Anonymous Reply:

    By the way i dont support RSS , precisely because it is full of people like you.Having a Muslim as president iof RSS will throw the spanner in the works of bramhinical snakes. Difficult for you understand , like why play high up in the pitch and not defend on the box.or to put it otherway what is offside trap.

    Anonymous Reply:

    ????

    It is like a Muslim saying that he would start voting for BJP if he wears a “Katwa Cap”.

    engrich Reply:

    modi is on their foot.17%of muslim votes goes to bjp modi or no modi.

    engrich Reply:

    u should join only if they change their ideology.but they will not.if i hurt a dog i apolige to him.here 4000 were murdered 50000 are languishing in dirty camps.MODI CANNOT SAY EVEN SORRY TO VICTIM.
    this is called fascism.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Mohan;
    This reminded me about a circular flaunted by Ram autar, in the possession of a minister in haryana. So as in gullivers travels, people are running helter-skelter to collect these circulars( sound more impressive).
    gotta go.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have serious doubts on the authenticity of the circular.
    I will do my research.

    engrich Reply:

    u cannot believe.they people are worst than this.can u believe a doctor who injected 57 muslim women with hepatites-b injection is made minister as reward for this great act.during many muslim injured were murdered on operation table by surgeons.
    there are stories that they were snatching infants from the laps of their mothere cut them into pieces mix with tarcoal and paste on the road.

    i advise u to see who killed karkare on u tube.
    also read a gorgotten mascare on 6th november 1947,
    at jammu.they are available on internet.

    If any good-hearted, far-sighted, impartial, noble historian were to come in future, she or he can write the sordid, atrophied, violent, criminal past of India only in letters of blood

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj circular is right i told u.in fact they are doing.rss ia crowd of gangesters murderers wife swappers hawla dealers,infant burners thieves and rapists.
    all these skill they show during riot.

    engrich Reply:

    Has any senior leader of
    RSS confirmed the authentication of this circular

    they never denied.they dont sorry to victims of riots shows their attitude.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    AS ALSO UTTER RUBBISH OF JEWISH JAILOR TEACHING SAVARKAR LESSONS IN FASCISM

    it is right.

    garbage is ur and your mother ***.son of a *****.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Guys,

    Just ignore this guy Tajender/Ramautar/engrich. The problem with Zia’s
    blog is that there is a guy Jai Khosla who responds to him with his own garbage
    which riles him up and he comes up with more of his BS. By ignoring he may
    realise his mistake — will he realise ? — and may stop bloging here .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    VINOD ji

    Some of your bloggers border on genius. Their rangr of knowledge and the links they provide is what makes your blog read by all my friends from Uk to Amritsar. Last week Rajiiv and Mishraji set blog on fire with their info on Jonnah and Pakiistan.
    Before that the two pundits Ashish and Mishra argued vaary nicely about Bengal commies. Gopi and doc are masters at Indian history. Gopi and Shoeb sre blogs south indian experts . Etc etc. BUT TO MAKE THEIR REFINED VOICES HEARD, THE SNARLING OF LESSER MINDS MUST BE CENSORED.
    I do not have patience to sit thru miles long manusmriti cut paste from engrich, I will go to nihilistic dalit hate filled websites if I want that.
    So Vinod ji count me out again. Never thought that tajender who violatef spirit of our brave CAPT UNNIKRISHNAN would find way back on blog

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    If your decision to ban him was correct 2 months ago, then it cannot be undermined by change to new format. Tajrnder also brings out eorst in Ravi and rajeev for different reasons.
    Also it is not as if this blog is all in agreement. I startrd two votes last week
    = Modi and cap
    =Kandahar, rrlease or not
    and there was healthy disagreement. Mishraji has provoked by praising Savarkar, Ashosh says commies are not all bad etc etc
    so blog will debate and fight healthily without egerich. BAN HIM
    GOODBYE

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    This gangrenous gingrich was thrown out by Vinod Sharma for overstaying his welcome as also for misusing his blog’s seva to denigrate Hindus, Hinduism and all Hindu gods and saints. It was on popular demand.

    Now either Vinod Sharma is too preoccupied with UPA

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now Vinod Sharma is either too preoccupied with the misfortunes and travails of the UPA to notice the re-entry of a gangrene, or he now believes that it is an example of secularism, making the blog free for all.

    The problem is that like Sonia Gandhi Vinod Sharma too is on maun vrit and nobody knows when he will break his vrit.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Balls your lines “Some of your bloggers border on genius”
    That depends on your standard.
    Like take this genius sardar
    A man is crying at the scene of bomb explosion”Oh God My hands have been blown off”
    Sardar to this man who is crying:”Stop crying , Look at the other man , HIS HEAD IS BLOWN OFF , is he crying.
    Birds of feather flock together

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Nirad Babu,

    what a weird kind of joke is this?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    capt unnikrishnan died oerforming his duty everybody respect him including me.but those killed at cst has same soul.how kasab escaped when 119 gunmen were there.why u are not hurt for them.not asked enquiry for this.

    [Reply]

  • Vinod Sharma

    @ishwar
    It is a bipartisan analysis. No need to read extra meaning here.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ==============================================================
    ~~~ A POEM DEDICATED TO ENGRICH the EUNUCH ~ !!! :) :) :) ~~~
    ==============================================================

    Here is a poem for everyone to enjoy :

    T U R D Tajendar ke petticoat se nikla yeh Engrich
    Sab ko lagta hai.. yeh hai ek Eunuch, ek Eunuch

    Wah wah !! Wah !!!

    Iss se debate ka kya fayada
    Dimag nahi hai iska zaida
    Yeh toh hai eunuch, ek eunuch !!

    Ha ha ah !!! HA!!

    ISI ka pyaada hai
    cut and paste ka shezaada hai yeh
    Yeh toh hai Engrich, Engrich

    Yahoo Hahaha !!

    ISI ne jab kiya thaa isko khassi
    Tab Jehad ki talwar di iskko asli
    Yah toh hai Engrich Engrich,
    Asal mein ek unique eunuch…

    Ha ha ha ha !!!! :) :)

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    भरत व्यास की इस रचना को, वसंत देसाई ने स्वर बध किया है.

    “राम तेरी लीला निराली” अथूना धिन्ध्वा मैं १२० हफ्ते चली

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ISI Fundoo Ravi ka naya pyaar
    Eunuch Engrich se kiya Ikrar

    T U R D Tajendar ke petticoat mein
    Fundoo Ravi aur Fundoo Engrich ne li angraadyi

    ISI ko yeh situation
    Bahut pasand aayi ! :)

    Vijay Kumar, Ved Vyas ko
    Apni Kitaab, The THREE FUNDOOS ki
    second chapter ki yaad aayi !!

    HA HAHA !!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Quite funny…

    I hope Engrich gets the message to have concise, relevent postings and not the entire charter of LeT in each posting

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vjay,

    badal kar faqerron ka bhais hum ghalib
    tamashae ahle chaman dekhte hain

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Vinod is of the opinion that now since Sonia is back, she will put the house in order…

    This precisely is one of the issues with Congress – one leader, no democracy in the party, no emerging leaders… This was not the case with the party until few years into Smt Indira Gandhi’s PM ship. Shrimathi Gandhi successfully managed to destroy the “syndicate”, and other leaders like Morarji, crushed the local/regional leaders and powerful CMs, and cancelled/postponed party elections, three/four years into her PMship. People like Barua who sensed “either with me or get crushed” started singing praises like Diggie is doing now.

    The great party of Gandhiji, Nehru, Patel, Azad became a plaything for Shrimathi Indira Priyadarshini Gandhi to settle scores, to cement political gains, garner advantages.

    Shrimathi Indira Gandhi made sure that there will be only eunuchs as cabinet ministers and party dignitaries; they will not let one of them become PM, and that will force them to always go to the family for the next leader. Her plans have lived on, and the eunuchs have performed the way she dreamed — even beyond her wildest dreams — that they will not find a leader in the land of 1.2 billion people, and the mantle of leadership “had to be awarded” to the foreign born bereaved widow, who was never in politics, quite possibly not even a party member.

    Even in her wildest dreams, Shrimathi Indira Gandhi would have imagined the eunuchs will be so well trained and indoctrinated that they will settle for her diminutive Italian daughter in law, instead of one among themselves. And we criticize the Chinese Communist party?

    The tragedy (or comedy?) is that she (Sonia) has proved to be temperamentally more fit for the leadership rather than these clowns. And she has picked on the Indian mythology and ethos – She is a well-revered Bhishma who sacrificed the crown. (one more plus, she even left her native country) – Bhishma Pithamaha’s sacrifice is always glorified; however, nobody ever talks about whether that sacrifice was worth anything– Bhishma continued to rule the country through proxy, as the de facto king, in effect not sacrificing anything.

    And then she knows in a land where some Bahus are burned to death, other Bahus are more than welcome and given the keys of the house, even the Kingdom!.

    What a country!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    correction – “even in her wildest dreams, Smt Gandhi would NOT have imagined…….”

    I should say the only time period when Govt offices functioned for the citizens was during the emergency. As they say “trains were on time”.
    Come to think of it, may be Smt Gandhi was contemptuous of democracy – how little it delivers, how long it takes.
    In a sense it is a big loss that she did not live long to write about all these – the motivation to go after syndicate, Chief Ministers, party leaders, declaration of emergency etc

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi
    The Congress ceased to be a Party long time back . It is a Family Zamindari ,where people wait at the doorstep of the Mai- Baap , to have a share in the loot, big or small.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    AFAIR, the severity of the emergency was inversely proportion to the radial distance from Delhi.

    The emergency was more to do with suppressing freer flow of information and suspending fundamental rights of anyone opposed to her than about trains running on time or the government offices functioning properly (bonus or unwanted benefits!).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    your memory fails you when remembering the emergency days. Its severity was widespread, uniformly arbitrary and touched all sections of society. In the south, including Kerala and Karnataka too several thousand people were arbitrarily arrested and tortured for long months.

    The emergency was, in fact more of midnight knocks, nasbandi, and breaking the spirit of India than mere suppressing of information flow and fundamental rights.

    Anonymous Reply:

    No, it does not. I know what I am talking about. Try and understand what I am saying.

    As rightly said – you cannot read on the lines nor between. And it surely is your problem, I cannot help you nor the intent to do so.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    Nothing to be surprised about.

    We have discussed inner party democracy in India in earlier blogs. It is non-existent or at most a naaTak is staged for public consumption. There are remote controls and remote controls (RSS, Thakres) or the head of the family dictating (Sonia Gandhi, Mulayam Singh, Karunandhi, Badals, Lalus, Jayalalitha, Patnaiks etc). Perhaps, the comrades are little more democratic than others – are they?.

    Whether Sonia will put the house in order only time will tell. As I mentioned in another thread here, IMO she needs a new and different set of advisers.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Sanjeev Bhatt’s wife is deeply hurt and anguished . She believes that her husband , a highly celeberated whistleblower for those , who cannot accept and tolerate those who the people of Gujarat elect to be in power in that state , should not be investigated even if he charged with serious offences .She wants the Law to act with deference and respect , towards Mr Sanjiv Bhatt as he occupied a high office. He , should not be interrogated , premises should not be searched , rather he should not be investigated. After all he is an IG rank officer in the Gujarat Police. He should have the freedom to confine ,coerce and force a constable to file wrong affidavits and give false evidence.
    He posseses a lot of information. First it was the Gujarat Riots , and how Narendra Modi fanned those riots.So what if no court was willing to accept nor rely on those affidavits Now he knows a lot of Haren Pandya’s murder. But surpisingly he never provided that information to the CBI all the while it was investigating that Murder . Now CBI cannot be tarnished by Mr Bhatt with the same brush which he uses against the Gujarat Police.
    But what was Vaghela doing at her residence. Guiding her on her next move…what she should say to the media …or something more…and a hint was there in a newspaper that he was there to save the skin of another senior Gujarat Congress man.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen Saxenaji,

    This Bhat chap is the modern day version of Kumbh Karn. He has a habit of going to sleep for long years.

    He slept for nine years and suddenly remembered, after a head massage by Teesta Setalvad, that he was present in Modi’s house on 27th Feb., 2002, when Modi was said to have ordered the police to look the other way when Hindus killed Muslims. Additionally Bhat was angered by the fact that Hindus had killed several thousands of Muslims when he had gone to sleep.

    Now after some years, he remembers about Haren Pandya’s murder too, even though he was asleep when the murder took place. This too he remembered after he got a body massage by Teesta Stalvad.

    Naturally, the police too want to know what else he remembers, if he is given some more “body massage” in the traditional police style. What is wrong in the police demand for his custody?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy Saab
    None should be surprised if we find Mr Sanjiv Bhatt fighting the next election as a candidate of the Congress Party , provided courts allow him.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    It is possible that Teesta might have been reading out Engrich’s outporings while givingthe head massage…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Praveen
    Was there a report that Vaghale was in the Bhatt house?
    This Bhat guy belongs to Congress!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Gopi , News channels had shown this story . Vaghela had gone to her residence and given full support of the Congress Party.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Today’s International Herald Tribune carries an article celebrating the achievements of Swami Vivekanand. Worth a read.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Zias blog in peak was 800 comments average. LAST ZIA BLOG WAS 33 comments, 24 by egerinch tajender , 5 by lovely DR IDIOT SHAN.
    Only persons missing were Bobby Darling and Dolly Bindra who are of tajenders intellectual level and SHANs cultural level

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Balwinder,
    Its rumoured that it was upon reading ( some say smelling ), Tajinder and Shan/street that Shakespeare remarked “scums of the same stink, stick together”

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    it is wrong.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Nirad Babu, why did you forget the name of engrich among the “serious bloggers”?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    The loud chorus singing has started again – engrich haTaao.

    If he is banned (I am against all types of ban), then there are two or three more here, who also need to be given marching orders. In any case, Vinod Sharma has mentioned that he will intervene if required, so why the clamour?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    It is a power game.

    As Dr Mishra has demonstrated, either he goes or I go type of childish play

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Intolerance and bigotry on display. Nobody is forcing them to read his comments.
    ————-

    Here is a partial list of things banned in India. Let us see how many of those (if they choose to respond) demanding ban on engrich support the list.

    Press

    In 1975 Indira Gandhi government imposed censorship of press in The Emergency. It was removed at the end of the Emergency rule.

    Books

    1) In 1989, Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses
    2) In 1990, Understanding Islam through Hadis by Ram Swarup
    3) Shivaji by Jayant Lele
    4) The Polyester Prince, a biography of the Indian businessman Dhirubhai Ambani was banned.
    5) In 2003, Dwikhandito (split in two) by Taslima Nasreen banned by West Bengal Govenment.

    Drama

    1) In 999 Maharashtra government banned the Marathi play ‘Me Nathuram Godse Boltoy” or ‘I am Nathuram Godse Speaking”

    Films

    1) In 2004, the documentary Final Solution, which looks at religious rioting between Hindus and Muslims, was banned. The film follows 2002 clashes in the western state of Gujarat, which left more than 1,000 people dead. The censor board justified the ban, saying it was “highly provocative and may trigger off unrest and communal violence”. The ban was lifted in Oct.’04 after a sustained campaign.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    What about gutter scoundrels, who are against ‘ban’ but for ‘blasphemy’ ?
    Some of them stink on this blog.lol

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Are you speaking about yourself?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    You mean like this one….

    Sorry guys this gem got lost in the last blog.

    It deserves your full consideration.

    ____________________________________________________

    This was posted by RajeevS

    F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..
    A Like Reply 1 day ago in reply to engrich 0 Like
    F .

    ____________________________________________________

    Dr Mishra…I do not expect a comment from you, but I am eternal optimist.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sensitive Sikhs..whose blood boils when Islam is questioned…Nautanki..

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajiv,
    All this business of respecting all religion is bogus..The maximum a person can do is to TOLERATE all religions which I do to but no one can force me to respect ideologies that I don’t agree with you. In fact I find Islam is RSS politics + religion. I don’t agree with either.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    MANOHAR, only for u I respond.
    1. Blog must have minimal intelectual standards. Comments like savarkar and jews are gay, or Inian jews are disguised as brahmins, are stooopid.
    2 Abuse of individuals or religion is intolerable. Many here are cultured, many here revel in abuses.
    3. My time is valuable. Cant waste on Rakhi Sawant shows or shan.
    4 ravi, shan and tajender have abused each other, partic shan vs others, maabehen stuff, only when they got lonely and rebuked by all, did they find refuge with each other

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    More than half of this is a complete lie.

    The only person who has ever did ma Behan is Dr Mishra.

    RajeevS has abused other peoples religion on this very page, and you ignored it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Jankhe..kya aurton ki tarah ro raha hai..You did same to hindu gods after Ayodhya verdict…Nautanki queen..

    Unlike you, I am not bashing any god (Allah) but cartoon called Mohammad and his political ideology Islam disguised as religion.

    I am all for Sufi Islam minus arabic hocus-pocus.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1. “Blog must have minimal intelectual standards. Comments like savarkar and jews are gay, or Inian jews are disguised as brahmins, are stooopid”.

    First of all I am no one’s keeper. I have mentioned earlier – what one does within four walls of his/her bedroom is of no relevance and should not be anyone’s concern..
    In an earlier blog – RajeevS was talking about Gandhiji’s sexual orientation – why did you not object then and why now?

    I only wish you would insist on minimal standards from all – not selectively.

    2. “Abuse of individuals or religion is intolerable. Many here are cultured, many here revel in abuses.
    3. My time is valuable. Cant waste on Rakhi Sawant shows or shan”.

    Isn’t that what I have been saying for the last couple of days. If your time is precious, ignore him or whoever else you wish to – their names appear on top of the posts – just skip. Let me tell you something – I have never bothered to read what engrich or some of the others write, perhaps a line or two and then move on. Show me one post of mine where I supported him or denounced him, by responding to his posts.

    4. “ravi, shan and tajender have abused each other, partic shan vs others, maabehen stuff, only when they got lonely and rebuked by all, did they find refuge with each other”

    What abut others- RajeevS for example – if you ask me, he is the most fouled blogger here. Why the double standards – tolerant for “your” own side and intolerant of “other” side? in his new avatar – the postings of engrich or whoever he was/is (I do not care) looks like an angel compared to RajeevS’ vitriol. It is quite clear, many of the bloggers feed on each other.

    I had posed this question to Dr. Mishra – who did not care to respond – (no problem – if someone does not bother). Here goes – kis kis kaa munh band karoge?

    Sorry, I am not on the same page as you.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Zenanaiya ro rahi hein… :)

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    we fight and forget.ur war on ravi and shan is continous.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    Link to Savarkar was a revealation. Such a brave and patriot. He also appear to have initiated abolition of untouchability. what is your grudge??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Only a link. There were two links. Did you go to the other link?

    In any case, I cannot force (and have no intention to) my views on you or anybody else. You think he was a brave and a patriot, I have no problem.

    My views on him, I will post at leisure later.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    yes, I read the first link only, did not read the second one, not deliberately, I have work also to do. However, I will go there as well and waiting for your reply.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    No problem. I would suggest you read both – we can wait to discuss it and it will easier for us to refer to any context we may refer.

    engrich Reply:

    manohar can u ask him to give any tale of his bravery.as he is not indian so he dont love india.he prepared grounds for future blood bath.which we see from time time.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @MANOHAR_T,

    No I did not imply that you are a “gutter scoundrel”. But its obvious from your response that you consider/suspect yourself to be so. I dont think I have read enough of you to reach a conclusion. If you desire, I will let you know if and when I reach that conclusion.

    Anyway, I am not for banning opinions , irrespective of how abusive and False it may be ( 5000 dalit rapes in UP every day ? ). Neither does so called blasphemy or any abuse hurled at my religion, ethnicity or caste offend me. Its just not my concern. They are only as vile as the person making them is. Let Tajinder/Shan/Manohar (?) or any other gutter scoundrels opinions stand for them.

    Bye the way, gutter scoundrel stands for those that support laws that punish so called blasphemy ( like in the criminal entity Pakistan ) but are against banning disruptive and abusive posters at HT blogs !!!

    However, I am for banning bloggers, who are like a vagabong who walks into a restaurant and starts yelling and throwing stuff , and prevents others from conducting their business. Bye that I mean , if a blogger, does excessive cut and paste jobs, filling up the blog so much that other bloggers cannot read the blog , such disruptive behaviour, where the blogger is not engaged in discussion but in unilateral cut-and-paste ( often without acknowledging the source ) or using caps lock liberally in all posts , – such disruptive bloggers should be banned after warning.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I do not give a damn, what you think of me or later form a firm opinion. Keep such views to yourself, who cares.

    I will not waste my time in responding to the rest of your message – I have better things to do in life and not worth responding to, as I have expressed views elsewhere on this blog. In fact I do not ever bother to post rejoinders of many of you, unless a specific post is addressed to me. Got that?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    So don’t get your tail in a tizzy and concentrate on ‘better’ things you may have to do !!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Tizzy, huh!

    Who you think you are to tell me what I should do or not do? maan naa maan, main teraa mehmaan, wah!

    Anonymous Reply:

    chal phoot yahan se…RTO office ke bahar dallagiri kar

    Anonymous Reply:

    Darr gayaa kyaa? Asking me to go away.

    And in any case, who the hell you too think you are to do so. This blog does not belong to you or to your family?

    Anonymous Reply:

    I know it belongs to your Paa Vinodji..

    Anonymous Reply:

    Good – you have shown a tiny bit of “common sense”, that it does not belong to you and I hope you have some more tiny bit of “common sense” and refrain from telling others to scoot. I am only hoping.

    Anonymous Reply:

    don’t you have better things to do? ;)

    Anonymous Reply:

    Do not worry, I am a multitask person, can take handle several things (one is the likes of you) at the same time. Any more questions. then shoot?

    Anonymous Reply:

    So you work and take bribes at same time..Good going.

    Anonymous Reply:

    If you take bribe then it is my business..You should be in jail for being corrupt.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Re:comment bleow

    If I should be in jail, What ar e you waiting for, file a complaint or are you expecting a shar e of the loot?

    engrich Reply:

    manohar this man is half mad allow him to bark.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Better things to do..means conning people..after all he is Congress man,..in short conman.

    Anonymous Reply:

    As I had told you in the earlier blog, I may be a congress man, a conman, whatever you can imagine, first of all what is it you and second you cannot do anything about it – except rant. Keep on, you have your full support of your orchestra.

  • Anonymous

    I once again repeat when it comes to international diplomacy, people should stay away from OVERT display of their faith. What stopped Saudi king to read Fateha for Gandhi? Is it not an Islamic tradition?

    Secondly I don’t consider Islam as traditional religion because it clearly has political side to it. In fact all the rituals such as Hajj and Namaaz are meant for organizing muslims for political achievement i.e. rule of Islam.

    As for Mohammad, I consider him as a shrewed politician of 7th Century..He as a king without crown but his claim to prophethood were bogus. If you read about his violet deeds and sexual exploits, it will be an insult to other prophet if we call Mohammad a prophet.

    I have all the respect for his as military general, political genius but as prophet, he is a joke.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @RajeevS,
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Some people may think even worse of him and some may consider him perfection incarnated !!!

    However, its only when someone keeps repeating the same stuff again and again in a blog, its only then that it becomes disruptive in my opinion.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajeev;
    do not have contempt for either of them. they are product of their times. the difference between them is that One Organization claiming that its philosphy is immutable, not even a dot can be changed, it is 7 century, all the way in 21 century and other organization is ready to change with changing times. A universal law is that change is inevitable, and nothing remains standstill.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev try to understand why half the follow this great prophet(pbuh).inspite of this relentless propaganda their followers are increasing.message is very strong.try to understand difference between mohamdans and muslims.followers are called muslims not mohammadans.so character assination makes no effect.he is harday samrat of half the world.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    When Ravi called hindu gods especially Rama, why did people not ask for banning him.
    It means slamming hindu gods is game but any bashing of political faith Islam is big NO-NO.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Only idiots ( or is the word gutter scoundrel better ? ) would claim all religions are equal or deserve equal respect ? Is communism, democracy, fascism, wahabism equal and deserving of equal respect ?

    However, all people, irrespective of religion, or their opinions ( including scoundrel idiots ) deserve equal protection under the law. Every human being deserves justice and fair treatment.

    However, everyone should be free to criticize any religion , prophet and characterize them as he judges them. I pick and choose all the gems that I find in Hinduism or offshoots of it or any other religion and am free to reject those that I do not agree with. Neither do I see a need to defend the almighty.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    So F.U.C.K is a valid criticism

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vedic religion is the only rligion which says that man is born unequal.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes Pakistani criminals are born unequal as crippled thugs, based on their bad karma that the bigots have collected following a intolerant, primitive ideology.

    ________________________________

    engrich Reply:

    ram was king not god.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Let me be more specific for people like Ravi. I see Islam and RSS as mirror image of each other because both believe in supremacy of their faith and rejection of other faiths. Both are intolerant and not in sync with modern time.

    Islam has a fixed prophet whereas RSS has changing prophets. Both are based on nationalism that excludes others and their right to live peacefully.

    My contempt for Islam and RSS is equal.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev

    I do not subscribe to that. RSS may have problems, but its problems are entirely of a different nature than Islam’s problems.

    RSS, more than nationalism, ascribes to a civilizational framework. Of course, one can disagree with those basics.

    Borders, boundaries, affiliations etc are there for countries , people.. One can then argue why dont India, Pakistan unite–for that matter all South Asians..

    The key issue is whether the boundaries are set on impinging on some other’s fundamental rights

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,
    There are lot of similarities between Islam and RSS. They are very obvious. I have requested Shan to take up this project. I’ll pitch in when I get time.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Fake Ravi,

    I am surprised at your slip about the RSS. Being ISI trained, you should have been up-todate with the banning of the organisation. Therefore, let me refresh your memory.

    The RSS was banned thrice. The first time was in 1948, when Nathuram Godse assassinated the mahatma. The courts ruled the ban illegal.

    The second was during the emergency. The ban was lifted when in 1977, the dictator herself was thrown out by the people of India.

    The third was when the disputed structure at Ayodhya was demolished by VHP workers. Then too the courts held the ban illegal.

    But, here is an interesting piece of information:

    Field Marshal Cariappa, when he was invited to their function, in his speech to RSS volunteers said “RSS is my heart’s work. My dear young men, don’t be disturbed by uncharitable comments of interested persons. Look ahead! Go ahead! The country is standing in need of your services”

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Real Jagat Behnoi

    Thanks for correcting my perception and

    CONFIRMING THAT RSS IS UNIQUELY, AN ORGANISATION WHICH OTHER PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED TO BAN.

    There is something about its philosophy and modus operandi that other people find it reprehensible and are inspired to ban it.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Other people……..inspired to ban it”
    Only the government can ban an organisation.

    It is only the congress government which banned it all the three times and lost face every time.

    On the contrary, SIMI was banned and still stays banned.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I think we should not ban Eunuch Engrich… just restrict his poting to one line to know how brainwashed T U R D S function.

    or for that matter see what lies below the petticoat of T U R D Tajendar wherre two fundoos Engrich and rav are having a rav-shing time… :)

    engrich Reply:

    vijay now keep ur a$$ shut otherwise i will awnser u.

    Ravi Reply:

    SIMI should be banned and should remain so.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shenoy-

    retd Justice Thomas of the Supreme Court recently had a glowing tribute to RSS – that he came to know about their service activity when he was a district judge, how they have been maligned by “picking and choosing” etc.. it was a thumbs up coming from a Justice who is known for his jurisprudence.

    RSS, like any other political and non-political organizations, has to attract a meaningful “market share”. They never focused on that leaving others to define them as they wanted.

    It is high time they define themselves and market appropriately. Justice Thomas may be a start.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    Justice Thomas is a rare human being, who says what he feels to be true. What, however, I am unable to reconcile with is Nehru’s invitation to the RSS for participation in the Republic Day parade of 1963. Nehru cannot be accused of being ignorant of the stigma attached to the organisation, of being complicit in the Mahatma assassination.

    what made the most secular Nehru do an unpardonable sin of calling Gandhi’s murderer to parade, in their chaddi and kaali topi in front of the whole nation?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Does Jinnah’s politics of communal hate and Gandhi’s policy of communal harmony deserve equal respect ?
    Does the entity born out of Jinnah’s communal politics and cold blooded murder of direct-action day and the largest, secular democracy in the world deserve equal respect ?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    According to dimwits like Ravi and Manohar, both ideologies are EQUALLY respectable…This is what fake-intellectuals do.. Appease everyone who is enemy of ideology they are opposed to.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Well then by deductive reasoning you may have arrived at your definition of “scoundrel thugs” .

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shan,
    I usually do not agree with your abusive language however when it comes to substance you do have logical view.

    Here is a topic for you. I am addressing this to you because you have neutral view most of the time.

    Can you list of similarities between RSS and Islam? No one can do this better than you.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Shenoy/Manohar:

    I was a young man during emergency days (so also Shenoy, not sure about you Manohar; I think you are much younger) ..

    Smt Indira Priyadarshini Gandhi’s strong man Karunakaran was the CM in kerala. Several bad things happened; the notorious one being the murder of Rajan, a REC student; the only son of a college Sanskrit professor.

    It is there for history. Google Rajan case. Look into Wikepedia on emergency.

    The Malayalam movie “Piravi” (birth) in 1988 by the famous director Shaji Karun was based on this story. It won the national award for the best film that year; it also won the best actor (thespian Premji), best director, and many other awards.

    I recommend movie buffs to see this.

    Again, as I get older, I am wondering what political form of govt is the best for a country.. What is democracy when people can be manipulated easily.. In this regard, I want to bring up a rule the King of Travancore had many many centuries ago. His decree was that only educated people can choose to convert to Christianity because choosing a religion/life style (and relinquishing one) is an extremely difficult one; and only educated people can make that decision. Almost all the syrian christians were all converts from the educated class (and in those days by default mostly nairs because there were not too many Brahmins in kerala) because of this rule.

    I have been thinking of what form – benevolent king, army, dictator, party mode like Chinese, Presidential form of democracy etc- is appropriate for India and its people for growth and liberty. Poverty is the worst form of “discrimination”, and how do we raise peoples living standards… because for sure, lot of our problems will wither away if economic well being improves. A lot has been accomplished, but a lot remains. We created generations of poor people thru our bad economic policies till mid 90s. So, a lot to make up; and collectively we have to decide whether the current political system is upto snuff.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    We have discussed earlier as to which system of governance is better.

    Now, let us take specific alternative types.

    1) Benevolent King – where do we find such a saint and who decides whether a person is a saint and will be so in the future?

    2) Army – I think the example of Pakistan should be enough for us to desist from ever imagining that they will accelerate growth and poverty will be a thing of the past.

    3) Dictator – Saddam Hussain, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, ……. Is that an option?

    4) Chinese style one party system. No elections. The communist party is a closed system. The party decides who gets in and who does not. Common man has no say. Also it is one way street – the party speaks and people must listen. If people speak a different language, then it is hell/jail for them.

    5) Presidential System – has its merit. It needs a two party system and all the regional and interest group specific parties must vanish, so that the winner 50%+ of the vote. Is it possible in India? I do not think so.

    6) Parliamentary- the best. Of course with better quality of people manning the key positions in the Executive, the Judiciary, the Bureaucracy, etc. Plus decentralisation of power to the lowest levels -panchayats and zilla parishads or Taluka parishads..

    What are your views on each of the systems?

    About emergency, I have already posted my views earlier. Ruling with emergency powers is out of the question – it is another form of dictatorship.

    Yes, I agree – poverty is the worst form of violence /discrimination.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Now that a Congressi Atma has entered my body, all the answers are clear to me…
    1) Benevolent King – Bad except for Nehru-Gandhis..

    2) Army – Bad except for Nehru-Gandhis..but can Nehru-Gandhi ever be in Army,

    3) Dictator – Bad except for Nehru-Gandhis..

    4) Chinese style one party system: Bad except for Nehru-Gandhi’s Congress Party

    5) Presidential System – Bad except for Nehru-Gandhis..

    6) Parliamentary- Bad except for parliament dominated by chamchas of Nehru Gandhis..

    All systems can work in India provided they are run by super competent (in corruption) Nehru-Gandhis.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi,

    I have known the sad story of Rajan, who was killed by Karunakaran’s Gestapo. The infamous aeroplane punishment was repeatedly administered to Rajan as it was to several thousands of RSS workers in Karnataka too.

    Ironically, during the emergency days, I was working right below the PM’s office in South Block, where I had my branch.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    ~~ WHY THE RSS CIRCULAR IS FAKE AND LAUGHABLY FUNNY !!! ~~~
    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    There are still people in the world who want to believe that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy and maybe a CIA plot to capture the oil resources of the middle east. This RSS circular, supposedly secret falls in the same mould. Disinformation which the Engriches and tajendars would want to flaunt to shame an organisation.

    Had such a circular actually existed, Manish Tewari would been dancing the salsa and Digviansh Singh doing rock and roll, twist and bhangra by turn.

    This is just a poorly crafted, badly worded attempt to confuse people. To anyone familiar witht he mandal masjid politics of the 90’s this would be the sort of disinformation which would drive people to the VP Singh coalition which was purpodely consisting of minoirties, and lower castes versus the higher caste Hindus.

    At that point the bJP was trying to build a votebank of Hindus telling them that they were being discriminated agaisnt in India. Whiel his opponents, mostly from the VP Singh movement — Mulayam, Mayawati, Bukhari, Shahabuddin– were trying divide this mass b y weaning away the scheduled castes from this huge mass.

    The whole pamphlet is worded in such a manner that anyone who does not fall into the so called ‘high caste” Hindu bracket would immediately hate the RSS and BJP. And also the Ram Mandir movement.

    I think you need to be dumb, if you take this pamphlet seriously

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Viju

    Absolutely. Do not waste time responding to these c—p. Employ few people, give them an opportunity, and make money during that time.

    You are doing a great service to the country..keep it up

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    ——————————-Thx Gopi !—————————————————-

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    There are still people in the world who want to believe that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy

    1200 intellectuals of america has issued signed letter confiming that 9/11 was inside job.if u have slightest of mind ,tell me how a building with 200million tons of steel can fell in 57 minutes.

    rss circular is old.it is nothing new.may be for it is new.actually they do it.if u read the stories of riots.
    rss is crowd gangesters murderers homosexuals infant burners rapists hawala dealers scamoperators and financial thieves.

    any type of derogatory adjectives is nothing as compare to their deeds.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Is Amar Singh an RSS too?

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    money corrution is least harmful corruption.mental corruption is the most harmful.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    Yes it looks like a fake to me too.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    I am a Sikh….but I don’t know Sikh history..I support Congress on 1984 sikh massacre. I get all worked up if Islam is criticised..but I abuse hindus and hindu gods whenever I can. I have 3 land lines but no cell phone..I send 10 emails to Balwinder to prove I am MONA Sikh…earlier I was sikh and before than I was Hindu. My ancestors were hounded out of SIALKOT by HINDUS. I use ‘WE’ when defending Islam..I find Tajender as best debater. When cornered I plead for help and support from people..especially from corrupt Congressis. I justify Islamic terror and have mourned death of Osama like his widow..I never condemn Pakistan’s terror in J&K but support right of J&K terrorists to breakaway from India. I am secular while abusing Hindus..I see Jinn of RSS everywhere…

    WHO AM I?

    I am deceitful liar and morally corrupt Ravi.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aur mein Janani bhi hoon…Kaun hun mein?…Mona Sikh Ravi…

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Pranab today stated that Rahul is ready to be the PM —

    Isf this is the ‘emerging” India, the envy of the world? (okok, lot of things to fix; but they like our eco growth)

    Well, Srimathi Indira Priydarshini Gandhi must be beaming – amazed at the eunuch tradition she set in place surviving even after 30 years of her death!

    I will take even Prakash Karat against the boy!

    God bless India..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “Pranab today stated that Rahul is ready to be the PM”

    There is no shortage of sycophants in the Congress. Search for one, you will get 100s and 1000s.

    Also, it is his way telling what he thinks of Dr. Manmohan Singh.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Manohar;
    Thanks for the links. I not only opened second link but there are two links below the article of krishnan dubey( ?), strange name. I will advise every friend to go through these links, even for a brief while and you will realize, how people take pleasure in ridiculing great people. Savarkar, who spent 13 years in jail, gave away lucrative career of being a barrister, for country. His sufferings in jail are illustrative. Compare him to other freedom fighters/Rajbhogis and then you get the bigger picture.
    Comment are welcome, Manohar included.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Pankaj

    I could, but the gap between us is of canyon proportions, and I am not as young as I used to be.

    I am sure you have already formed your own opinions.

    Savour them.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @Pankaj#1 , FACTS ARE STRANGER THAN FICTION.
    That savarkar begged the british to free him from Andaman is as true as vinod sharma writing the blogpiece in HT.
    Also savarkar was a conservative bramhin who beleived in hindu orthodoxy on caste etc.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shan;
    By now, you must have realized that I do not support caste system. In present times, as we can not dwell on excesses commited by moghuls/ muslim invaders, and transfer those excesses on present muslims, by the same token, excesses commited by brahmins can not be transferred to present day brahmins, who are a caricature of long gone era. It is a new brave world, where only merit,and integrity will flourish. rest are Chimera.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj indian was ruled by muslims.indians were ruled by brhmns.can u produce one paper in which brhmns have protested moghul excesses.this story of of excesses was fabricated after muslim lost power.like what is happening in libya.tulsidaass never metioned existence of any ram temple in ayodhya.he introduce ram to people of ayodhya.before they never heard of rama as ayodhya was budhhdist place later occupied by jainese.vedics are late comer.nawab wajid ali shah popularize this cult through ramlila.terrorist sangh parivar used this for vote bank politics.now they are boycotted by holy of ayodhya.they have bring cadres from neighbouring district to organize,as they are hated locally by people of ayodhya.

    i am against brhmnsts not brhmns because they are thieves,murders and local agent of international devisive forces in india.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shaan Nirad Babu,

    is it stranger than Shivaji begging Aurangzeb to permit him to perform poojas and distribute sweets, and when so permitted, he escapes from the clutches of the tyrant?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    The first link http://www.savarkar.org obviously is a site by his admirers and followers, so they will only highlight at many of his positives (no problem with that per se) and there were many. That is one perspective, but not balanced. It is similar to website of a Company – we are this good, we are that good, blah, blah, blah. No one would want to show one’s warts.

    As Shan says, his “deal” with the British in1920s, so he could walk free, is true and that is very big black mark against him. Many of the documents in this connection are available with the National Archives, New Delhi.(see link below)

    Perhaps, his apologists may argue that he seeking clemency was a trick, so that he could once again actively devote himself to the freedom movement.
    ——————

    This is what Dr. B. R. Ambedkar summarises Savakrkar’s position

    “Mr. Savarkar… insists that, although there are two nations in India, India shall not be divided into two parts, one for Muslims and the other for the Hindus; that the two nations shall dwell in one country and shall live under the mantle of one single constitution;… In the struggle for political power between the two nations the rule of the game which Mr. Savarkar prescribes is to be one man one vote, be the man Hindu or Muslim. In his scheme a Muslim is to have no advantage which a Hindu does not have. Minority is to be no justification for privilege and majority is to be no ground for penalty. The State will guarantee the Muslims any defined measure of political power in the form of Muslim religion and Muslim culture. But the State will not guarantee secured seats in the Legislature or in the Administration and, if such guarantee is insisted upon by the Muslims, such guaranteed quota is not to exceed their proportion to the general population”.

    Some more links

    1) The full text of his apology (scanned from the National Archives).

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/14790262/Savarkars-Apology

    2) http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl1915/19151160.htm

    BTW, the second link (article by Krishnan Dubey & Venkitesh Ramakrishnan) I had mentioned http://www.hvk.org belongs to HIndu Vivek Kendra – A resource center fo the promotion of Hindutva.

    —————-

    Having gone through many resources and articles, I do not consider him to be a role model.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thanks Manohar;
    I am really enjoying this debate. Now please go to your post above and read Savarkar’s position, line by line, as summarised by Ambedkar. Now , with what stance of Savarkar, you disagree. One man one vote? Congress (Gandhiji’s idea), No privilage on the basis of religion, very enlightened ideaMuslims getting Guarantee of following their religion etc. Which is the corner stone of even present day Indian polity. any positive discrimination should be on the basis of poverty and such conditions. Both the links, below Krishnan’s article, do not criticize Savarkar. the only thing mentioned there that he asked for clemancy, which after sufferings he had in the prison. 6 mo nth’s isolation, even one weeks isolation in jail is like 7 years outside. paon main bediya for god knows how many months. kala Paani etc. How many of our past rulers have gone through this rigor?? Compare his sufferings to Kasab, Afzal Guru etc and that too at the height of british power, when there was no ray of hope,of liberation for another 500 years. that will break even the strongest will.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I deliberately put the summary by Dr. Ambedkar.

    I do not practice bigotry – that I will point out only the good or only bad side of a person. This discussion is not about trying to convince you to have the same view on Savarkar as mine – it is for you to take an independent view.

    He had his positives, however overall I do not consider him to be a role model.

    Suffering! – see my reply above.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    he is not my role model either. what I am trying to say, why this demonization of him?

    Anonymous Reply:

    One need not listen to the people who demonize him, nor one should accept hook, line and sinker what his admirers and followers say. Sorry, if I sound patronising, one should hold onto to one’s views, even if one is in a minority of one.

    I too agree with the summary by Dr. Ambedkar. No issues at all.

    The only reason I can think of he being demonized is because of that apology. Of course, he was also one of the accused in the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, but was set free due to lack of proof – fair enough, the government did not harass him after until his death in the 60s.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    I am not trying to change anything in your thinking or such. I am not in conversion business. I was only trying to understand negativity surrounding savarkar. situations in1900 could be very difficult for every one. british power was at its Zenith. I feel, lesser people would have done any thing to get barristership from Great Britain. But enough of Savarkar. I consider this chapter as closed.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Done.

    engrich Reply:

    he should not be demonized.but his participation in freedom struggle should not be hyped.i wrote above on hazrat mohani,fist president of communist party of india.he suffered far more but never asked for pardon.u wrote that he was ferocious fighter,in what way and where he fought with britishers.

    engrich Reply:

    getting Guarantee of following their religion etc. Which is the corner stone of even present day Indian polity

    BUT MUSLIM KILLERS GO UNPUNISHED.EVEN THEY DONT SAY SORRY AS KILLING THE HUMAN BEING IS THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

    engrich Reply:

    pankaj and shan,

    the following is part of speech by menachem begin in israeli parliament.this is mindset of hindutva also being twin brother,

    Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine goods on this planet. We are as different from inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be reuled by our leader with a rod of Iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”

    THIS IS WHY MODI/HINDUTVA GOONS ARE REFUSING TO SAY EVEN SORRY TO VICTIMS OF GUJRAT RIOT.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    you are right on several points. I for one, couldn’t find anything amiss in Ambedkar’s views on Savarkar. They are very rational, practical and unbiased. It could as well have come from any real secularist.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj

    You wrote

    “Savarkar, who spent 13 years in jail, gave away lucrative career of being a barrister, for country”.

    What is so unique about it? – Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Prasad and scores of others gave up lucrative careers to plunge in to freedom movement. These people spent many years in jail too and the most important without seeking any clemency.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Manohar;
    Think about your own words. Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Prasad, every one was a great person, no doubt. But has anyone suffered the way Savarkar has suffered? has savarkar got any recognition for his sufferings, in the twilight years of his life? Can you compare him and all the illustrive people you mentioned above? Their power and privilages. it is clear that savarkar started has life as a ferocious fighter against Britishers. he awas a close confidente of Tilak, Ram prasad bismil and Shyamji Varma, all people, who are held in great esteem. What is Savarkar’s sin??

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The degree of suffering! Measuring greatness by the level of sacrifice made!

    Other people have suffered more – for example, Bhagat Singh and his team, they did not ask for clemency and had to pay for by their lives.

    Come on, Pankaj.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Yes Manohar;
    Agree that Bhagatsingh and others died. it is easier to die in dignified manner than suffer physical torture for innumerable years. Having said this, even now everyone hold them in high esteem, why this demonization of Savarkar??

    engrich Reply:

    maulana Hasrat Mohani participated in the struggle for Indian Independence (end of British Raj); and was jailed for many years by British authorities. soiltary confinement.He was the first person in Indian History who demanded ‘Complete Independence’ ( Azadi-e-Kaamil) in 1921 as he presided over an annual seesion of All India Muslim League. He was not only a practising Muslim but also a strong supporter of the communist philosophy, as he could see that British could be possibly defeated by following its principles. Therefore, he was among the founders of The Communist Party of India. He was also imprisoned for promoting anti-British ideas especially for publishing an article against British policies.BUT HE NEVR SUBMITTED APOLOGY OR REQUESTED HIS FREEDOM AGAINST SOME DEAL.

    Ravi Reply:

    Along with many many great Indians mentioned here in this blog, Hasrat Mohani’s name should be included.

    Anonymous Reply:

    But, Mahatma Gandhi and the congress party he led, trivialised Bhagat Singh’s supreme sacrifice by asking the people not to ‘honour’ his memory.

    engrich Reply:

    savarkar looks like twin brother of heobbles.india has no muslim problem it has serious hindutva problem.god save our country from these rascals.
    they create different ideolegies to create problem and perpetuate blood bath.

    they invented communism which killed 5 crores russians.proleteriat revolution was planned and financed by capitalists of new york.
    here also foriegners are planning the future of india.

    savarkar sins startyed when he left andaman jail.where he was brain washed was converted from nationalist to fascist.his sins can be seen in the deds of his followers.A DOCTORS KILLING HIS PATIENT ON OPERATION TABLE.WOMEN ARE RAPED AND BURNT ALIVE.

    later part of his life he was a british spy.he is not indian.zoinists are liars of highest order.i doubt what is written about him is true.

    it is because of people like him 4millions were killed during partition.it is because of vilness that india had 600 communal riots.they have capacity to convert man into animal.

    SIN WAS IN HIS MIND AND PEN.

    guest Reply:

    heobbles pls read geobbles

    engrich Reply:

    if u see the face of savarkar he looks twin brother of geobbles.he was godless jew pretending to part of hindu culture.
    jews created problems in europe.european solved this problem by sending thm to middle east where indian jews should be sent.i dont know.
    india has serious hidutva problem not muslim problem..they are pushing muslims to become terrorist.
    their media neither take rest nor give respite.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Vijay, Gopi, Pankaj etc
    People on this blog are not divided by religion. They are divided by country they support. I am yet to see an Indian muslim on this blog who has been abusive of India or its religions. The most abusive ones are those that root for Jinnah-Let-Jaish-e-Mohammads Pakistan. Some of them openly or covertly peddle the case of Pakistan and every criminality that it represents and want to discuss everything except the conduct of the criminal entity that there loyalties lie with.
    You will find the peddlers of the fake-RSS pamphlets running around like rabid dogs as if they received it directly from the hands of their prophet ! Tajinder , the pakistani, has a bus load of those which he carries around and feeds these dogs.

    Just watch and enjoy.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The above rant is that of a paedophile , trying to justify child abuse , by portraying it as special love for children. Only that the love happens to be of a sexual nature. This pathetic and sad PUNDOO , an utter failure in life NOW USES FLAG WAVING to hide his criminal face.
    This idiot should remember what Dr Johnson said PATRIOTISM IS THE LAST REFUGE OF A SCOUNDREL.
    People who are grounded in science analyse things OBJECTIVELY , that includes HISTORY , they refuse to be mouthpiece or a PROPAGANDIST.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Just one of the rabid dogs I mentioned. I just throw some stale meat and they flock. Love that.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    The paedophile i mentioned , got rattled , started writing in with anxiety tremor , thus using the word flock , for in his mind he is thinking of FROCK , of a young innocent girl which he defrocked

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shan

    I think you should pick up a debate on the issue rather than get into persoanl abuse. What did you gain out it?

    maybe a moments thrill.

    But you have lost a lot of people who could have read your post.

    You can notice that nobody else is abusing at a personal level

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Rajiiv;
    You are so correct.One does not need 6th sense to make out these psuedos.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    rajiiiv i am indian muslims .respected muslims will not come. u are 3r rated indians.i can withstand ur stupidities and abuses.because i can give u more if needed.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    In your before-expulsion-from-Vinodji’s blog avtar, you were professing to be a Hindu, (a fake Hindu, actually), with the holiest of holy name of Ram Autar. How have you now become a Muslim? Do you think that by telling us that you are an Indian Muslim, all the s.hit you are peddling here will be more acceptable?

    What a bewaqoof Muslim are you!

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    ram autar is not holy name.ram was king in an epic not god.this shows your poor knowledge on hinduism

    Anonymous Reply:

    Entirely agree

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Shenoy Sahab;
    A simi module, which was trying to establish contact with JeM in pakistan has been busted. that is where I said, finish first Jihadis in India then, aspire for Afghanistan.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Rajiv S today addressed this to me
    Shan,
    I usually do not agree with your abusive language however when it comes to substance you do have logical view.

    Here is a topic for you. I am addressing this to you because you have neutral view most of the time.

    Can you list of similarities between RSS and Islam? No one can do this better than
    you.

    Well I will try my best. Though let me relate some relevant experience today.
    I was invited to a durga puja is East London near BOW. I have been to other pujas in the past..There is one in Camden , incredible it may seem SHARMILA TAGORE AND SOHA ALI KHAN was gracing the podium .I am certain both had all air fares plus a tidy sum paid up for the appearance.There is aPUB opposite the town hall. There was incredible scenes of women straight out from the anjali and prasad , heading to the Pub. managing Pallu with one hand John Smith with another.
    Now BOW was fascinating. Here not a single house or probably very few are private houses. 90% of the flats are COUNCIL HOUSES. But the flats are so neat and nice , who needs to own house . All of the residents are from either Sylhet , bangladesh or every muslim country you can think of , somalia , eratrea , yemen , you name it.
    This made me realise PARTITION REALLY DESTROYED BENGALI HINDUS , they are treated like second class citizens , and the Muslims in Bangladesh with the exodus of hindus as well as being on their own are like an orphan.
    In UK bangladeshi muslims have recoiled into the morgue called fanatic islam.
    What was interesting in this puja was two GORAS selling books on krishna.
    Hare krishna society is india’s most visible spiritual brand in the world. Sylhet is where from the fountain head of this movement came from ,his name was chaitanya mahaprabhu.I am an aethist , But his message is one I am prepared to listen.
    He said “You dont need God , You dont need Temples , You dont need Scriptures,
    ALL YOU NEED IS TO GIVE LOVE TO YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sharmila Tagore and Soha Ali celebrating Navaratri in London, so soon after the passing away of the Nawab is shocking as well as revealing.

    Either, the pull of Navaratri is too strong for a Bengali, even a converted Bangali
    Or, the pull of a free trip with all expenses paid was too much to resist.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Crumbs of comfort, alas

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Sharmila and Soha at Camden Puja, THAT WAS FEW YEARS AGO.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    RSS and Islam
    Well the similarities are striking. BOTH ARE ORGANISATIONAL, islam is organised religion with politics in its DNA , RSS is a organisation with religion as its DNA.
    Both are LED by IDIOTS , whose knowledge of science and rationality is that of an monkey.Both attract people with false assurance of security and brotherhood.Both use VIOLENCE as its tool to meet its objective. Both are ANTI MODERN , both are viciously MISOGYNIST. Both are led by PRIEST, and every civilization where priest class got upperhand , went down the slippery slope, be it Persian , jewish , CURRENT ISLAM vis a vis Mullah, and the GREATEST HINDU CIVILIZATION and its downfall

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Shan,
    Great job. So every criticism of RSS is valid for Islam and vice versa.
    When people like Ravi Slam RSS, they are actually slamming its twin ideology Islam.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,

    you mean, when Ravi abuses Balwinder’s wife and child, he is actually abusing his own wife and child?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    How very intelligent….

    I did not abuse Balwinder for nothing. Are you aware as to what he said.

    No because you dont care what your friends say.

    That is te issue. You go after only those who you do not like.

    And you do not like liberals.

    The rest is just hog wash

    Anonymous Reply:

    Currently only one things differentiates RSS and Islam..a proven case of terrorism… Once terror case against RSS is proven, it will become equal of Islam.

    I fail to see how people can support RSS. They may be doing some social work but it is a fact that they want non-hindus to be second grade citizen. I’m sure majority of hindus don’t want Islam type of rule in India imposed by RSS on India.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,

    you can’t be more wrong. Vajapayee and Advani were and still are RSS swayamsevaks and they have never once disowned or disavowed their affiliation. And they have ruled India for six years and not even the worst crypto fundoos like Fake Ravi can say with any proof that they have acted against the interests of Muslims or India in general.

    You are plainly prejudiced.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Shenoy

    You are right. The Vajpayee era was among the brightest of the post independece India.

    Ravi Reply:

    In what way was it brightest?

    Anonymous Reply:

    This was the time there was not talk of leaders grooming therir children for succession.

    The foreign policy was revolutionised with India using policy for dealing equally witht he world, rather than being a side show player

    Econominc growth was good. Liberalisation poicies were on and there were no 2G type of scams.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, “Shining India!”

    “and there were no 2G type of scams”.

    Really?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Not rally. It is only now that there are no 2G scams. We now have 2Gs.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “We now have 2Gs”.

    And that really discomforts you. Right?

    Anonymous Reply:

    My discomfort is nothing compared to the comfort congressies like you find in having them as the dispensers of the nation’s destiny.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Reconfirming your discomfort – that they (and not Modi)happen to be dispensers of nation’s destiny. Of course, we all look for comforts in life.

    Anonymous Reply:

    BVS

    Do you by any chance own a printing press?

    I wondering, because the number of and the frequency with you distribute certificates of character, background, inclinations, patriotism, nationalism and for everything else under the sun to all and sundry. Paper must be really cheep (*)

    See – on the above post, you have issued certificates to three people in one breadth.

    At the last count, I think you have issued 4 such certificates to me in last couple of days. Can I have one more just for fun?

    (*) cheap.

    Ravi Reply:

    It is part of a tactic which goes something like this.

    1. Like minded people are OK, chat with them as one chats with friends.

    2. Those who have different opinions, then do not argue on opinions, just condemn them as Fake, Muslim, Alien, what have you.

    Hence the need, not only to issue certificates, but also to issue, all too frequent, reminders that certain individuals are fair game to attack.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vajapayee and Advani do not need my certificates of any human trait that they possess or don’t possess.

    Ravi is on a self promotion trip, I don’t have to give him any. But calling a spade a spade helps to remove the cobwebs in the minds of certain types of people practising psedo secularism. You just happen to be one of them.

    Anonymous Reply:

    If they did not need your certificates, then why?

    I was not talking about Ravi, but RajeevS – At least sometimes you should read the posts a bit more carefully.

    Pseudo -secularism!
    What do you practice – pseudo Hinduism, better known as Hindutvaism?

    It is better to be pseudo secularist than a hindutvawadi.

    Anonymous Reply:

    RajeevS

    In spite of our slanging match yesterday (I have erased it from my memory), I salute you for your comment here.

    Any type of fundamentalist and exclusive ideology is a danger to the society.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    no muslim country in the world,except pakistan,claim that they run on islamic principle inclding saudi arabia.
    u people are so vocal about islam why silent on christian country where religion plays important role inn politics.
    when bush ordered his army to destroy iraq their army was led by pastors having gun in their hands not bible.

    muslims are most tolerant ruler.only in istamboul dubai and jakarta u will find temple mosque churh and synogouge side by side.

    i never saw any muslim ruler visiting clergy and advertising it hindu rulers and rich do it and show it.even mms has gone to see satya sai baba ,king of frauds.
    for indira it was regular.muslims are most secular in practice.dubai has become hindu majority city nobody complain.no movement.

    HUM AAH BHI BHARTEHAIN TO HO JATE HAIN BADNAAM

    WOH QATL BHI KARTE HAIN TO CHURCHA NAHIN HOTA.

    mr mohan i will request ur awnser.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    swarsati the godess of knowledge was illetrate.hindu name is imported has no civilization only war stories.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Pankaj,
    Well you are right when you call these scoundrels as ‘fakes’. But that’s an understatement.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Ravi;
    Your quotereference to: Paadna: and : Dakar: lena betrays you. Your felicity with english language is no substitute to manners, up bringing and culture or for that matter, intellect. I will interact with you on intellectual basis only, otherwise I can conveniently ignore you, as I ignore Tajinder.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    You see these people who come from Jahil background will never forget their aukaat even if they wear golden crown. Did you watch rude interview of Shoaib Akhter?
    Same kind of crudeness was displayed by Afridi after world cup defeat.
    Jahil Quom can never change no matter how much govt, helps them..Chor Uchaakke kabhi sudhar sakte hein..

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,

    Dont say anything against Shoaib Akhatar. There is a airport
    named after him in London. HE THROW.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Mohan,

    are you sure? I thought the airport is named in honour of the greatest of all. throwers, Malinga

    Ravi Reply:

    You missed the Raag Malkauns and you propensity to wah wah even the mundane if it comes from BV Shenoy.

    Happy to be labelled bad mannered than to be sycophant.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    very well put. Fakes aakhir mein fakes hi hote hain. In the past he tried to impress you and gain access into your accepted circle by talking about Air Force Public School, Dhaula Kuan, Roshan Di Kulfi in Karol Bagh etc., but that is the veneer he puts on on his jihadi core, which comes out only when cornered and/or exposed.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Moogle Maps squire Moogle Maps.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    My preference would be for you to ignore me. The reason is very simple. I rather deal with BVS directly.

    It would also be one less chore for me to do.

    Why do I get this feeling that we have been here before.

    Let me once again re-iterate, what you do, is entirely under your control, though repeated attempts are being made for you to surrender this independent WILL to BV Shenoy. Signs of your capitulation are all too visible.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Every one.
    India is resuming responsibility for governance and security after withdrawal of Nato forces. Music to my ears. Long live Manmohan. Why BJP should be judged differently, escaps me. They will look after India’s interest, as nicely as Manmohan government, minus some tweeking, that is basically, internal. Foreign policy is bipartison, is long cherished goal of India.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    My quarrel here is with: Soldiers of Allah:. who come in different guise and : AVTAR:.
    I have no quarrel with people who are soldiers of humanity.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    Everyone;
    My quarrel is with : Soldiers of Allah: Who come in many disguise and :AVTARS:. Soldiers of humanity are OK.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Dr Mishra:

    I apologize. Picked up your note only today. I have been out traveling; will be back only after few weeks.

    Hope you had a good time. Just imagine, Pallava Kings of yesteryears, and their invited guests, enjoying enchanting Bharat Natyam dance performed by the elite performers from the kingdom on a moonlit night with the sound of waves in the background. They used to have dance “competition” at the present day rock temple, with the king crowning the best artists.

    The whole development from Adyar to Mahabalipuram and beyond is all in the last 15 years!

    Did you get a chance to visit KalaKshethra and KCS Panicker’s artist village (the first of its kind in India where artists from all over can live and do their craft in the same place)..

    In Chennai, one can still be in the “old” India of music and dance easily merging into the “new” India.

    [Reply]

  • Dr Mishra

    @ Shoeb, I will be at the Radisson Mahabalipuram till Saturday eveing. If you are free to meet up there then pl let me know.

    This blog has once again descended to chaos.

    Darnley street Dr Shan- please do desist from attacking Rajiiv in sick language of paedophilia, frock etc- our profession demands nobility of us at all times. You are a doctor, set a standard

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Dr Mishra

    Perhaps you would be kind enough to remind us all as to who was the first person to use the MC galli on this blog.

    While we are being archaeological about things, who was the MC aimed at.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Yesterday here in Dubai prosecution dropped the charges against five Indians
    who took part in the procession in favour of Anna Hazare movement. The reason
    given was tht their act was not against the State.

    [Reply]

  • Ravi

    Compare and be exonerated

    A comparison between Islam and the RSS has been drawn. Organisational similarities have been noted and the focus has been successfully moved from blasphemy and unwarranted insult of a prophet to Islam as a whole. Such training in managing ones PR is standard in the RSS circles.

    Had the comparison been made between Islam and the Boy Scout Movement, the Mormon Church, The Tibetan Buddhism, the International Olympic Committee, etc. the list of similarities would have been much the same.

    Freedom of an orphan

    As you may have read that previously I have declared myself as an orphan. It is a function of age rather than a symbol of pride. But I must say that it does give me relief from undue parental and peer group pressure. This means I can say what I want, without fear, so long as it is within the bounds of decency. My decency.

    Throwing the galli MC at me is therefore academic. Similarly, making an assumption that I am a Muslim and then to go on to criticise and insult Islam, hoping that it would hurt me, is an entirely futile exercise. It not only fails to hurt me (because I am not a Muslim), but instead it lays bare the writers Islamophobic stance.

    Continue talking to the hand, but the hand isn’t listening.

    Civilisation is the gap between me and my Jahil self. Every now and then when I do meet the Jahil me, the noble savage, I like him more than I like the civilised one. Try it and you will reacquaint yourself with some of the forgotten joys.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Futile to compare Islam with RSS
    ————————————————-

    An interesting question has been raised. how do we compare Islam with the RSS. In my opinion, Islam cannot be compared as it is a religion which needs to adopt to the present century while RSS was a social movement which wanted to protect Hindus from an assualt by foreign forces and forces of conversion.

    It would be correct to say that in some ways the role of Islam was that of an agressor in India and the RSS chose to take up the mantle of the defender.

    Unfortunately both need to reform. Islam has become the garb of dictators and kings to rule as well as subjugate women and minorities. RSS, which does exemplary work needs to adopt itself to the modern idiom and recognise that India is a multireligious country now and so it should accept that.

    While indivdial Muslims have no problems in living with other religions, the mullas and the maulvis want Islam to remain a converting and conquering force, putting it at odds with the rest of the world.

    The RSS would want to outgrow its image of a defender of HIndus to a defender of India of all religions and creed…

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinoo

    Totally agree with you.

    Well articulated mon ami

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Vinoo

    Vinoo59 reminds me of Vinoo Mankad, who played cricket in the fifities!

    Anyway, you are pretty correct. It was only when countries interacted, without letting religion coming in the way, did the present world evolve.

    Wish it would remain the same way…

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay Kumar, Vinoo,

    I used to simply worship Vinoo Mankad, the wizard of off spin and holder of the world record for the first wicket partnership.

    I had hundreds of paper clippings of his during my school days.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    vinoo mankad was first brhmn cricketer.i was his fan.

    Ravi Reply:

    How does it matter if he was a Brahmin or not.

    He was a great cricketer. That is sufficient. He was repersenting India and not his caste or his relgion.

    engrich Reply:

    i agree with u.he was one of greatest cricket this sport has produced.i was his great fan.but i added word brhmn to please the brhmns on this blog.

  • Anonymous

    @ Ravi

    What about rights to walk out of the religion and becoming an athiest ?

    Does the state have any role when a Sikh wants to become a Muslim.

    A muslim wants to become a Hindu

    A Hindu wants to become a Christian

    And the CHristian wants to become an athiest.

    And all of them want to critscize each others religion…

    This is the cause fo the fights. Now are you getting ready for it. Assuming you belong to ONE of these relgions, what is your reaction now?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Vinoo

    Religion is a private affair; state has no role to perform in it.

    Any one can CHOOSE to walk out of their birth religion.

    If a Sikh wishes to become a Muslim, then that is their personal affair and state has no role in it. Individual freedom is sacrosanct, if you pardon the expression.

    Same applies to all other such scenarios that you have listed above.

    Sensible criticism of all religions should be permitted. Those who oppose such criticism are LITTERALISTS. Like believing that Jesus is the only son of GOD, or that Quran is the message dictated by GOD.

    I am a liberal Mona Sikh (though there are others who would try to persuade you otherwise), and strictly adhere to liberal values.

    My personal views are as expressed above.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    well, the only problem is that a muslm will be killed by his fellow muslims if he converts. be it in islamic country or in any other country…sas we speak an iranian is sentenced to death sentence for convertg to christianity

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And when a proselytised Christian is reconverted to Hinduism, the whole world comes down on India calling it intolerant.

    Ravi Reply:

    You sound like a convert.

    Are you?

    engrich Reply:

    well, the only problem is that a muslm will be killed by his fellow muslims if he converts

    in pakistan millions converted.ur claim is wrong.it is many indian states which has banned conversion.

    Anonymous Reply:

    As self promotions go, this takes the cake for duplicity.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    All because it does not fit with the false image of me that you want to portray.

    An Image of me you formed not based upon what I say, but on what you think I say. You are a sanghi and that is what you guys do.

    The only one here who is duplicitious, is YOU.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vinoo

    I am too an atheist. Your views are a welcome change.

    In the last decade or two, the only people who seem to have made a noise about conversions – the parents of the person concerned (probably), the immediate society and the VHP/BD/SS (in case the conversion is from Hinduism to any other accompanied by violence, threats and intimidation).

    Religion is a private affair – one should keep it within the four walls of one’s home/heart and in temples, churches, mosques, etc. Outside of that – it must cease to matter and must not be exploited.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    u should oppose ban on conversion in many states of india.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Rajeev-
    You obviously are aware of Ravi’s constant raising of RSS to any ills of India, his equalization of Jehadism to Hindu terrorists etc. You yourself have labelled him jehadi/ISi etc based on his extreme views on India and rationalizing views on Pakistan.
    There were three occasions when his true coloue came out while blogging in Zia’s blog.
    - He talked about how the vicious Hindus drove his family away from Sialkott to Dlhi.. (he had an altercation about this with Ashish, later he got away saying he was tired and di miswrote)
    - on a discussion of Muslim extremism in UK and the west, he stated “it is because WE have been invaded”
    - on a blabbering by Ram avtar, he advised Ram that “although THEY worship many Gods, THEY will not convert to OUR religion”

    I am not a blog extraction expert. But if you are, you can pull out these from Zia blogs.
    Ashish had pulled the Sialkott item; however, he said he did not want to question Ravi’s explanation and will take his word.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    raju kurien rss is terrorist organization,it is far bigger threat to unity and stability of india than anyother movement.including muslim terroism,which to my opinion dont exist in india atleast now.simi,im huji all are on paper to catch and rob muslims..

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    vinoo-

    You ate too generous. God save the world from Islamic religion, the way the world is going now!

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Raju

    I did not want to say anything harsh against any particular religion. But yes, I am disturbed by the way a monolithic version of Islam is being financed and forced all over the world.

    This version of Islam only welcomes ENTERANTS to Islam and punishes and murders anybody who disagrees or wants to convert away from islam.

    This is used as a tool by depsots to rule over their empires and also subjugate religious minorites and women by stating that they are only third class citizens becasue it is written in a book.

    Now that is what i said in my first posting. That it is time religious texts are seen with a bit of humour…

    For at times… they do read like jokebooks…

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    millions of muslims have converted to christianity in pakistan.who was killed.
    this is only propaganda.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    God save the world from Islamic religion, the way the world is going now!

    and save india from rss .

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    I finally hunted down the “offending comments” about Ram in a past blog (Zia’s) by Ravi.
    First, a disclaimer- I am a non-practicing, non-scriptured Hindu, an atheist- now that the fear of failing in exams has been behind me for almost a quarter century or more.. so….

    Firstly, I question Ram’s divinity. He is only an avatar of Vishnu. That does not make him divine (unless Gopi comes up with some scriptural justification attesting to his divinity)- because Vishnu also had Kurma, Matsya, Varaha etc as avatars- surely they can’t all have been divine? Forgive the frivolity, but there is something about religion that brings out the devil in me :-)
    Secondly, freedom of expression..
    Third, “Ashish’s law of divinity” states that if He needs your protection, then He can’t really be God.
    Needless to say, all the above applies as much to Ram as to any other religious and/ or mythological figure of any religion.
    Does that mean I support or encourage bad language or abusing anyone? No. But, in my view, such abuses demean the abuser while doing nothing to the recipient.

    One would expect some active moderation in this forum- but, IMO, Vinod Sharma chases eyeballs (like Zia self-confessedly did) on his blog. Succh fights are good for traffic.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I know what I said.

    I apologised for saying it, almost immediately after saying it.
    The reason why the whole incident is being revived again is because of the following post made by RajeevS.

    I would like you to observe the contrast between the reactions when a Hindu god was offended and when a Muslim Prophet is offended.

    My issue is with the two differing levels ferocities with which the regular blogers have dealt with both these incident.

    Major culprits in my opinion are, Dr Mishra, Balwinder Sandhu, and BV Shenoy.

    **************************************************************************************

    Sorry guys this gem got lost in the last blog.

    It deserves your full consideration.

    ____________________________________________________

    This was posted by RajeevS

    F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..
    A Like Reply 1 day ago in reply to engrich 0 Like
    F .

    ____________________________________________________

    Dr Mishra…I do not expect a comment from you, but I am eternal optimist.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I have never insulted Islam or their prophet, even though the historical fact of the prophet marrying a nine year old girl baffles me.

    What I have exposed is the fake Ravi’s duplicity, his defence of another fake, Tajender, whose incessant outpourings against Hindus and particularly brahmins and upper castes, which became intolerable even to Vinod Sharma, who is otherwise very tolerant towards fake secularists.

    What I also took strong objection to was fake Ravi’s making extremely vulgar, obscene and explicitly sexual comments about Balwinder’s wife and son. Unfortunately, unlike in the Tajender’s case, when Vinodji took positive action, here he simply refused to respond.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    This is a complete lie. Total lie.

    It is precisely within the context of “The 9 Yr Old Bride” that I mentioned but what about child marriages in India.
    There was a deluge of attacks on me, for merely mentioning it. What is acceptable in this blog is a constant feeding of 8% growth stories and none about Child marriages, Dalit Oppression, etc etc.

    What miffed you is that I punctured you hegemony over this blog, which even Vinod mentioned soon after I arrived here.

    Since then you have made several, attempts at least once every change of blog to persuade people that I am a Muslim, a ISI agent come here to spoil your little party.

    It is laughable to think that ISI is reliant upon some one like me to conduct their business.

    You live in a fantasy world.

    OH BTW… What is it like to be a child bride? This is what the BBC say.

    30% of child marriages in the world take place in India.

    …. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15082550

    You have also forgotten about your shwatelingham.

    How does my vulgar language make me a Muslim/ISI agent etc.

    You are a Fake Guru.

    Anonymous Reply:

    What Amarnath yatris see in the cave is Shwethalingam. There are many people who are named Amrithalingam, Ramalingam, Mahalingam etc. Shivling is the one every Hindu worships.

    So, why are you making a song and dance about my uttering the word ’shwethalingam’?

    engrich Reply:

    ling is made through refrigeration cycle.there is nothing divine in it.i am talking of amarnath.

    engrich Reply:

    shenoy i attack brhmnst which means sangh parivar.i am not against brhmns.my wife is brhmn.but i have deep hate against brhmnst.u have not be brhmn to be berhmnst.advani is sikh as per his daughter-in-law.but he is brhmnst.i hate him because he is notorious.he used to melt ram temples offered to him and convert them into crockery while in public he will cry for revenge.i have not seen any brhmnst who is not notorious.he dont love india as he is from pakistan.came to india to make his career.using india.

    AshishC Reply:

    Pankaj,
    I think your analysis of what makes a book/ personality holy in our mind is spot on. It may not be desirable- but, as the bible has receded in importance in the lives of common Europeans with the advent of economic freedom, one probably can expect similar reactions from Indians, in the coming years.
    Ravi,
    Let me make this black and white.
    I do not abuse anyone (well, to be honest, I do abuse; but in a clever sort of way- using words you can not take an exception to!). Vulgarity turns me off.
    However, refer above to Ashish’s law: God, if He exists will deal with you. I don’t effing care; and neither should you.
    However, resorting to vulgarity in a public forum is not on; but, since you apologised, that chapter should be considered closed.
    I hope Rajeev considers expressing regret for his rather out of the blue outburst against Mohammed. Go ahead, use you analytical skills to tear his legacy to shreds and I defend your right to say it. But, use of vulgarity in a public forum is not on.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    So would you agree with the following:

    1. Vijay is wrong in repeatedly using the word T.U.R.D. and PakS1tan1 when referring to Tajinder as well as me.

    2. Do you think Dr Mishra was wrong when he used his famous MC galli towards Shan.

    3. Do you think that RajeevS does not resort to vulgarity at the drop of a proverbial hat. Has any one asked him to apologise.

    4. Is Balwinder’s, taunts and language above minimum standards you allude to.

    5. Shan is not above using obscenities, however like me mostly in retaliation.

    6. Do you think that repeatedly, pointedly and perpetually calling some one a Pakistani, based upon dubious linguistic analysis, deliberate lies, and misinterpretations. (At least in one of them your name is almost always sighted as the person who can authenticate my lies.) is not provocation enough for the target to resort to abusive behaviour.

    7. Was’nt BVS’s Shwatelingham, uppham, etc. not close to the bone. No pun intended.

    Or was this sermon just meant for me, because the other offenders are your political soul mates.

    I guess I know the answer, but still best to make sure.

    AshishC Reply:

    Ravi,
    now you are being tireseome.
    I am not the blog-master or lokpal or whatever.. I have my own way of dealing with abuse or pointless rants.
    What sermon are you talking about anyway? However, resorting to vulgarity in a public forum is not on; but, since you apologised, that chapter should be considered closed.
    I hope Rajeev considers expressing regret for his rather out of the blue outburst against Mohammed. Go ahead, use you analytical skills to tear his legacy to shreds and I defend your right to say it. But, use of vulgarity in a public forum is not on.

    There, I bolded the relevant words- so that they are visible even without your misplaced reading glasses.
    Pointwise:
    1. I would not use such words.
    2. Mishra apologised for that the next day; very graciously. I consider his racial slur on Bengalis and loose comments on “commies” far more damaging; an apology has not been forthcoming, however. I have given up on him.
    3. Rajeev has been asked to tone down, many times by old timers in Zia’s blog- many of them, who you would call his “ideological soul-mates”.
    4. I will not comment on Balwinder.
    5. Likewise, I shall not comment on Shan. except to say, that on this very blog I have published entreaties to both of them to stop abusing each other and their communities.
    6. “Pakistani bhi aadmi hota hai”- take it on your chin and move on. I have told you this before.
    7. Shwethalingam- I find funny. You don’t?

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    I do not doubt your even handedness, in all of this.

    It is the bias of others, that I am concerned with.

    Moving on is easy to say than it is to do. Considering that, it is used with monotonous regularity.

    Moving on.

    Anonymous Reply:

    And, Ashish, in one of his worst, racist comment, this fake said of me, ” because you are from the South, you must be Ravan”.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ashish;
    Good analysis. I am also a non practicing Hindu and as a globe trotter has come in contact with many religions, cultures, etc. Why some body holds a person in high esteem, to the level that they are worshipped?? In my opinion, it is because of their qualities. Why holy books are holy? do they have some aura? no sir, but because they teach some thing good, by no means everything good. but those people and holy books were kind of unique in that day society and their good impact was of such a great measure, that people started worshipping them. that was/ is not a happy state of affairs. IMO, peole should learn from those books and personalities rather than worshipping them. Having said this, no body has any right to denigrate any such books/ personalities to hurt others.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish

    My research and study indicates that Hindus worship only the human and semi human Avatars; this Matsya, Kurma, Varaha are not worshiped. However, as you know, starting the fourth, Narasimha, the avatars are worshiped; with some of them Rama and Krishna, widely, while others not that much.

    Also there are regional variations. Narasimhan used to be a popular name among Tamilians (esp Tamil Brahmins); while Parasuram is a very rarely used name all across India, may be because of Parasuram’s violence, as a killer of his mother, and a mass murderer of kshatriys. There are also very few temples for Parasuram, I think again due to our ancestors’ aversion to violence.

    Vamana, I believe, is a very rarely used name, possibly because it signifies a very short man. (there is a temple for Vamana in Ernakulam – Thrikkakara temple).

    But Gods, worship etc take mysterious forms. The most popular Hindu deity/God in kerala is not Rama or Krishna; but Ayyappa, also known as ManiKanta; the son of the union between Shiva and Vishnu (when Vishnu was Mohini) – yes, illogical, with the standards of then or now, or future; but those are the inscrutable ways mind works. And the worship of this God must have started after 650 or so, because there is a small temple for Wavar, a Muslim companion of Ayyappa, as the first stop to the mountains. A local Muslim family takes care of this temple for Wavar, also called Wavar Swamy. The first Muslim traders came to kerala coast in 650s, so Wavar has to be after that; so also the worship of Ayyappa.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Another interesting observation is that the first three non-human forms of Avatar are not used by any other Indian Gods as their “vehicles”; so, the ancestors who wrote these stories may have wanted to provide some divinity to the non-human forms.

    We have Ganesh and mouse; Shiva and bull; Dharmaraja and his buffalo; Vishnu and Garuda; but as far as I know no Indian God rides on Matsya, Kurma, or Varaha.. My gut is that the writers must have felt that using the three as vehicles for others may diminish one of the trinities.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    After posting my piece, I talked to my mother (should have done so earlier!) and she seconds you Gopi on worshipping only the human and semi-human forms.
    As for the rest of your piece, thanks a ton. You seldom disappoint.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopiji,

    Interesting . Thks.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    how about HANUMAN, how about HANUMAN CHALISA, also SHIVA’S BULL nandi is worshipped. In fact in UK in a hindu mandir run exclusively by goras, there was a fracas some years ago. This was about a BULL in the temple , that was ALLEGEDLY showing signs of TB , and the vets wanted it to be put down. Gora Sadhus who had named the bull SAMBO (actually meant to be shambhu), HAD A RUNNING BATTLE WITH THE AUTHORITIES with physical violence involved. At the end this being UK , and the religion involved being NOT ISLAM , THEY HAD TO GIVE WAY TO THE AUTHORITIES

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Shan

    I was only this morning talking to my friends about this.

    Inetersting issue is, does one only worship a GOD. If the answer is yes, then Tulsi, Peepal, in addition to Nandi are cases not covered by Gopi and Ashish’e mothers definition of Humanoid gods.

    However, if the answer is NO, then does that mean that any thing can be worshiped?

    Anonymous Reply:

    Apparently YOU AND ME are GOD , (i would certainly exclude some characters in the blog )Gopi Thomas has posted some half baked knowledge.HOW ABOUT NAG DEVTA. Actually the upper echelons of Hindu Philosopohy , the concept of GOD is abstract , and also hinduism is only religion which considers EVERY LIVING ORGANISM as part of the supreme manifestation. Thus you can be reborn as a cow or a dog.
    BOTTOM LINE IS, RELIGION IS OPIUM OF THE MASSES, THOUGH I THINK GODDING IS A VERY GOOD FORM OF PSYCHOTHERAPY and there is a need for that.
    BUT ONLY THING THAT WILL ANSWER OR PROVIDE SOLUTION IS SCIENCE

    engrich Reply:

    in ramanaya ram is king.how he became god.if he is god why there is no ram mandir dedicated to him anywhere in india.
    ashish i will be thankful if u clear this doubt.i am sure u will not ignore me here.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    here are some famous Rama temples in the South. Triprayar and Thiruvangad in kerala, Badrachaam in AP etc. Hopefully our Hindu friends can fill in more.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    u told me u were in delhi,did u ever saw ram temple.in entire uttar pardesh and bihar i never saw or heard about ram temple.
    ram in hindi speaking belt is worshipped through hanuman.thare are hanuman temples.please make sure whether these 2 temples are hanuman temples or ram temples.
    even in ayodhya there is no ram temple.

  • Anonymous

    ==============================================================
    ~~ ARE RELiGIOUS WARS LIKE THE COKE AND PEPSI WARS??? ~ ~~
    ==============================================================

    Raju Kurien’s posting that an iranian is being killed for converting to Christianity, reminded me of the COke and Pepsi wars.

    Mera customer kahin aur naa jaaye…

    It seems that custodians and priests fo religions will never tolerate a liberal regime which can debate out issues. Without meaning to hurt Muslim feelings I would like to state that Liberal Muslims and Non Muslims in cetain countries need to seize initiatve and hang or at least de-fang the perpetuators of blasphemy laws.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Viju

    Regarding Pepsi/how they are helping farmers:
    There was a report about th magnificent work done by pepsi and a NGO (ADI) in the village of Wahaegon, near Aurangabad, Maharashtra..The land was not used much, drought etc etc. Looks like Pepsi and this group did some ingeneous work on irrigation, multi-crop farmg, year round farmg etc.. So the farmers are growing roses, garlic etc in addition to cotton– the yield has gone up from Rs 1.5 lakh/per acre to Rs 2.5 lakhs/acre

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Vijay,

    “‘ Mera customer kahin aur naa jaaye…”‘

    Yes you are right its all business.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar,

    i forgot to answer to your query on forms of government–

    You are right, in the sense, there is no ideal system -
    1) Benevolent King — you are right, how to spot one, ensure it will continue in perpetuity.. We had great kings in mythology (such as Mahabali in kerala (the story about Vamana) , Lord Rama (Ramarajya), contemporary history likek RajRaj chola, Harsha, King of Travancore (who ddi not bother to touch a rupee of the jewels).. Kings of Jordan and Morocco seem to be OK, however they are small homogeneous countries. This is not an option fro India

    2) Army – I do believe Gen Maneckshaw, Cariappa etc would have steered the country right way..However, they did not have to intervene because there were towering leaders like Nehru, Patel, Pant, Maulana during their time. As the Adarsh fiasco has shown, we have many eunuchs in the army; we do not want them to rule.
    3) Chinese Model — I sort of like their “Rotary club” model – President, VP in waiting to be president, another one behind him etc.. There is democracy within the party, but not outside. Leaders do not remain for ever; neither they can draft their children at top levels. They get rotated out. Anybody who becomes the chief has lots of experience as an understudy, so they are quite prepared about the challenges at home and outside home. There is continuity. Frankly, it may not be bad fro India for a while, but the problem is that we do not have a disciplined party.
    4) Dictatorship- Yes, bad experience throughout the world.. Chavez seems to be OK; but he is destroying the nation’s wealth. Mustafa Attaturk was sort of a dictator, but he had a definite vision/timeframe; and the context of the country at that time needed one like him. History shows it has paid of well.
    5) Presidential a la US – I like the US primary system model; so party bosses do not have any clout; people choose whom they want to contest etc.
    6) Parliamentary like we have now– It is a broken, totally dysfunctional system, other than elections every five years. It should be changed/strengthened drastically to meet the aspirations of a nation with a growing percentage of youngsters below 30.
    More later

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Gopi

    1) Benevolent King – The names you mentioned are from history – everyone is wiser after the event. We are supposed to be worrying about present and future and it is impossible to predict that Mr. X is benevolent. Moreover, such an arrangement will work on small scale – not at the country. It will work say in Tonga, where the population is small and homogeneous.

    5) Presidential form – what you say is a matter of detail. Unless, we ensure that there will be 2 at most 3 candidates only (the regional outfits have to be folded up), then it can be option.

    6) Parliamentary system – In addition, less Government at the top (centre and states) – many of the ministries and departments do not do anything substantial except provide employment, and more at the local level (village, taluka, zilla), which I have been advocating it since couple of blogs.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Regarding the two Field Marshals, how can one be so sure? No disrespect to them – I am proud of and salute them. Moreover, commanding an army and running the country are two different ball games – hasn’t it been proved time and again in Pakistan? Perhaps they would have made excellent Prime Ministers, but we will never know.

    I am not sure about Chavez, he at one time asked for life-long appointment from the people. Why? Hegemony! IMO, he too one day will have to thrown out by his own people.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    It is quite natural that “centralized” parties will lose their clout when regional issues arise and regional parties spring up to seize the opportunity. DMK, Telugu Desam etc were “state born” parties or splits-away from national parties because of unique situation that national parties did not resolve on a timely basis.

    It is inevitable that regional or state specific (or even affiliating group specific) parties will rise up with a sizable following.

    Coalition is a must; national parties who form alliances with like minded (60-70% match) local parties stand the chance to win.

    Growing middle class, improving communications (TV), better education etc will bring the hypocrisy of national parties and their alliance out. For example, Congress cannot say Muslim League in kerala is not communal in the same breath as BJP is communal.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    bjp or parivar is fascist and murderer not only communal.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Good points Gopi..

    [Reply]

  • http://dealstop.co.uk Larry

    Vinod Sharma says “…the focus wasn’t as much on corruption as on Modi and the 2002 riots he often uses to consolidate his communal base within Gujarat.

    The part in bold is where the notorious Sharma’s propaganda seeps in. For the past 5 years Gujarat’s average GDP growth rate has been 13.4%, agricultural growth rate 8% – and unlike Bihar these growth rates are based on already high base. Modi has talked development and delivered it. He is on his way to make Gujarat the automobile hub of India with Ford, Peugot, Tata and Maruti building plants in Sanand. Farmers in Gujarat now get 24 hour electricity

    Unlike what Congress stooges like Vinod Sharma would like the world to believe, Modi has focused on development rather than communal politics to become the star of Gujarat, and India. Let Vinod Sharma point out even one communal statement by Narendra Modi in the last 7-8 years and I might believe what he says about the Gujarat CM.

    [Reply]

    guest Reply:

    Gujarat’s average GDP growth rate has been 13.4%, agricultural growth rate 8% – and unlike

    but poverty has increased as money was siphoned by rich.

    [Reply]

    Larry Reply:

    Really bot, can you prove what you just said or you’re just going to fire from your butts?

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    1) If someone does not abuse others for 7-8 minutes (overlooking the fact that he did abuse someone 9 minutes back), is he to be labeled as a saint?

    2) Modi has talked development and delivered it.

    He has also talked justice and communal harmony and not delivered it.

    3) BVS, you have a potential new recruit – unless he is an avatar of someone you and we already know.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    earlier, you said Gopi Thomas is Narendra Modi in disguise, because, as per your warped thinking, a Thomas cannot, ever, say anything in praise of Modi.

    Then you asked Shoeb, whether he was really a Muslim, because, again, your small mind couldn’t digest the fact that even while being a Muslim, one could praise Modi.

    Now comes Larry, the new entrant to this blog and with his very first post, your petty pseudo secular mind has begun slotting this Larry chap into us and them.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Raju Kurien,
    Let me get this straight. Did Ravi ( the many-times proven anti-India , liar, propogandist ) say that his family had to leave Sialkot in West Pakistan ( a criminal entity that had reduced Hindu-Sikh population to 1-2% from 22-25% in perhaps the largest religious cleansing in known history) because of Hindus ?

    I have not seen a disclaimer from Ravi , either way.

    Now why would someone say such a blatant, criminal lie ?
    Or did he not say it ?

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    @Larry,
    You said
    “Let Vinod Sharma point out even one communal statement by Narendra Modi in the last 7-8 years and I might believe what he says about the Gujarat CM. ”

    Well V Sharma often lies and hides. Its a standard Congress operating procedure.

    However do not under-estimate the fake RSS pamphlateers here who run around these blogs like rabid dogs. They have a bus load of fake stories. Ask them, if the criminal Jinnah, who has been quoted numerous times , even in prepared speeches, making communally inflammatory statements, the architect of the cold-blooded murders of “direct action day ” is a secular or a communal criminal ?

    [Reply]

  • engrich

    who cares.

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    ==============================================================
    ~~ ENGRICH SCARED BY POEMS AND MAZZAK becomes guest !!!!!!!!!!!!
    ============ ================ ============

    Seems that eunuch egrich has changed his petticoat again…

    he has been made fun off… and converted his name to GUEST !!!!!!

    [Reply]

  • AshishC

    Mahesh,
    You wanted me to do a bit of crystal ball gazing on the possibilities of CPM/ BJP to become serious contenders for power at the centre.
    Firstly, I hope the only reason you slotted CPM/ BJP together is to juxtapose the Right and Left (and not Wrong and Wrong!) in your mind. Take away the Gandhi name- and you can pose the question to me with Congress included in the same question.

    I think getting back to strong national parties is an imperative but I don’t see this happening soon. BJP and CPM have the cadre- BJP has it across a much wider geography- what they do not have (in varying degrees)
    - a standout (visionary/ charismatic) leadership that can rally the troops
    - a standout (distinct from others) socio-economic-political program that will sell

    The Congress has better technocrats at the centre- but, poor political management, disorganized cadre, zero inner party democracy and finally, poor leadership characterized by infighting, corruption and so on.
    How will BJP come to power?
    In the foreseeable future it can be only partnering with other parties. What the BJP does not sell enough is its club of performing CMs and contrast their performance with the Congress CMs.
    How will BJP increase its seats to beyond 200? Especially on a sustainable basis?
    BJP does not yet, get the demographic shift – it is not doing enough to position itself as a young party, for the young, for the aspiring. BJP does not have a cool factor, yet. But, if it does?
    What other scenarios are possible?
    I think there is some possibility that Congress will crack, as will the BJP and a unique 3rd front might emerge. But, it will be hamstrung by a lack of cadre and will continue to be plagued by lack of leadership.
    Your thoughts?

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Ashish

    As I have discussed this with you before.

    I believe that BJP can only succeed if it has a full programme of centre right policies. Which at present it is miles away from achieving.

    Public, in India have become more sophisticated and have – in droves – moved away from communal politics. Whilst Congress is not without its experiments in communalism, it is the BJP that is strongly associated with communal politics. Classical example is, despite being a successful CEO Modi is still reviled as a communal leader.

    Then we come to my favourite subject, the RSS. For BJP to succeed, it has to grow out of its ideological parent, the RSS.

    There are not very many examples in history, where extreme left and extreme right have made successful electoral pacts. Public is not that stupid.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Did I ever suggest that CPM and BJP or for that matter any extreme right and extreme left party in India are getting together in an electoral alliance?
    Those reading glasses; you must find them, quickly.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    No you didnt. My contention was based upon the following.

    Such combinations are often talked about, based on this notion that parties at the extreme ends of the polical spectrum are often closer to each other, than they are to the more centerist parties.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “…based on this notion that parties at the extreme ends of the polical spectrum are often closer to each other, than they are to the more centerist parties.”
    This is one aspect that intrigues me too. The parties on extreme ends might indeed be closer – perhaps borne out of posturing to signal absolute dis-dain and hatred of “compromising political positions” adapted by centrists.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Ashish;
    You naughty man.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish has put his photo on display
    and look how with words he does play
    in the photo we only see his dome
    we see few hairs hardly needing a comb

    what, Ahish, we want to see is your mug shot
    with a smile and it will be a hit, sure shot.

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Shenoy sahab.
    One can certainly depend on you to put back this blog to life.
    This was a good one.

    AshishC Reply:

    Mock me not, for I am an old, old man….

    AshishC Reply:

    Naughty forties, Pankaj; naughty forties!

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,

    in the VP Singh government, both BJP and the Left supported him from outside.

    Anonymous Reply:

    “The Congress has better technocrats at the centre- but, poor political management, disorganized cadre, zero inner party democracy and finally, poor leadership characterized by infighting, corruption and so on”.

    You forgot to mention – sycophancy, which allows nincompoops to rise in the party, hold important positions in the party/government ( ability, talent and skills be damned).

    The other cause is the High command culture, which prevents growth of state-level leadership. In practically all the states, whenever there emerges a potential leader, these high-command-walas, set up a rival and they merrily set out to destroy each other (this must be their “idea” of inner party democracy). The people in most state do not know, who will be the CM, if they decide to give the party a chance.

    As mentioned in the earlier blog, Sonia Gandhi needs a new and different set of political and organisational advisers – Sharad Pawar types.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Manohar,

    some similar thoughts have been voiced by Shekhar Gupta, in the following link:
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/decide-on-the-doctor/854125/0

    When Mahatma Gandhi was leading the congress party, he envisioned Ramarajya for India.

    As soon as power came in his hands, Nehru bid good bye to Ramarajya.

    When he was seriously ill and couldn’t run his government, he brought Kamaraj(ya) plan to get rid of some of the bosses who were waiting, rather impatiently, for him to call it a day.

    The situation now is not very dissimilar. Sonia Gandhi is ill and MMS may any day call it a day. Therefore, Sonia Gandhi should, as Shekhar Gupta pleads, bring in a Kamaraj plan II, which will get rid of some of the bosses and pave the way for yuvraj to take the reins in his hand.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Yes, yes – great minds (*) think alike.

    * That unfortunately does not include you.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,

    I think stand out economic programmes are giving diminishing returns. The congress had garibi hatao, which, after firing the imagination of the poor, left them poorer. “Congress ka haath aam aadmi ke saath” was another, whch as a slogan did bring votes, but is now showing itself to be one of the shallowest of “economic programmes”.

    In the recent past, we had dispensations like those of VPSingh, Chandrashekhar, Deve Gowda and IK Gujral, who had no party, no MPs, no programmes and no philosophies of their own except giant egos and overriding ambitions. Therefore, compared to these nincompoops, the BJP is a hundred times better placed in all departments. And now with the Sonia charm fading fast and yuvraj charm nowhere in sight beyond jhompdies of some remote villagers, the people will naturally look at choices available.

    Ultimately, the Lokasabha will be won by bonding with winnable parties like TDP, AIADMK, JDU, BJD etc and also leaders like Jagan Mohan Reddy. In these aspects, the BJP certainly looks better placed than the congress, which has only Trinamool to give it respectable numbers.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Shenoy,
    the prospect of aligning with Jagan Mohan Reddy should scare all BJP well-wishers. Doesn’t BJP have enough of the problematic Reddys? Not to mention Yeddy?
    Surely you do not want another Jharkhand play?
    I am in agreement with your second paragraph; largely.
    Slogan writing is not economic programs- the Congress’ slogans have underlying programmes- though, we can debate both their intent and execution.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,
    Let me start with Congress. Other than its self-proclaimed role of being a centrist and secular (the operative word here is “self proclaimed” , given that it hasn’t been exactly averse to playing communal card) – Congress’s biggest success stems from its ability to co-opt and absorb (mostly co-opt) different political forces emerging from the fringe. This is the kind of flexibility that BJP has been lacking.
    From the economic policies perspective – sans a bit of flirting with Swadeshi – BJP’s economic policies have mostly been evolving out of the same DNA as that of Congress. So, not much differentiation here as well.
    Given this background – if I were to represent the moneyed classes , my bets would definitely weigh heavily in favour of Congress. It would be naive , actually far far naive, to assume that the political parties competed merely on electoral canvass. A much murkier world beneath it renders the canvass by lending its financial muscle power to do several things including co-opting on the electoral front.
    The picture gets even more interesting and intriguing when faults emerge between moneyed classes. I have a vague sense that the past year or so of crises Congress has been experiencing might be a result of these fault lines. To be sure, my argument doesn’t hint at Congress being a victim – just a plain stage of conflict for different actors involved. The reason I argue about Congress cracking up is this – representing far too many actors with Conflicts.

    Another interesting aspect of political parties is ease of entry. Earlier in Maharashtra – it was easy for anybody who was Marathi to become a Shiv Sena activist (in whichever capacity). Gaining Membership is still easy in case of Left Parties and BJP . Congress and Shiv-Sena , in comparison, have higher entry barriers. That explains lack of active Cadre in case of Congress.

    Having said all of the above, we are still left with a large section of electorate who intend to reclaim their space in Political Process and yet don’t find apt means to do so. It is these that emerge as fringe. For instance, in case of tribals the political voice emerged earlier in Ms. Patkar’s leadership as Narmada Bachao Andolan, the newer avatar of this voice being Maoists. Similarly, Middle class most likely found a means to reclaim its space in Anna Hazare’s movement.
    It is precisely this set of “outside the established polity” forces – that will keep continually challenging the established polity , at times getting confrontational and at times getting co-opted. The parliamentary party that has flexibility , wherewithal and expertise in handling these forces will emerge powerful.

    One last thing about “technical expertise” in Congress – Nothing unusual here and is only to be expected given that Congress has had such a long experience in governing the country. In fact, NDA should be worried – very very worried , as and when Congress starts gaining in strength from alliances with local players.

    These are my own two bits .

    p.s. : Am currently working against a very very aggressive work schedule, hence my responses in discussion would be very sparse. Also, as and when time permits in forseeable future – we could resume discussion on Fiscal Responsibility Act and BJP’s econ. policies.

    p.p.s.: Shubh Vijaya Dashami to you and others here on this blog.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Excellent analysis Mahesh.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Mahesh,
    good luck with the work sched.. and thanks for the long post.
    I will post some responses anyways; respond (or not) in your free time.. there is no hurry.
    1. Congress as the great canopy (ref: tropical rainforest :) )
    Does the Congress appreciate that this is what is its strength? If so, why is it that it is unable to retain even Mamata Banerjee in its fold? Or, why is it that so many rebellious congressmen abound?
    At least BJP has strong and performing regional leaders; none of whom are pushovers- there are good and bad sides of this- it took a few days for Chavan to fall, like so much rotten tooth; while Yeddy hung on for months.
    2. Faultlines in the moneyed class support:
    you could well be right; as a corollary, one has to expect all governments now on to be subject to these pulls.
    We discussed how policy formulation will be increasingly the new frontier of corruption- because all policy formulation is “in camera” and not subject to public scrutiny.
    3. Cadre availability related to ease of gaining entry
    I have really no knowledge – but, perhaps you can substantiate this with the actual processes and the rigours of the screening process before one becomes a member of a national party (BJP, CPM, Congress).
    4. Outside the established polity forces..
    This is an interesting point and I thought this one through. Other than the fact that these forces have come into our consciousness recently- courtesy the Maoists and the Hazare movement- they have always existed. Many of these movements do not last or grow into something substantial or have lasting impact.
    Many do not even morph into a political force- some do.
    5. Congress might start gaining from regional partners..
    For a party that is showing signs that the centrifugal forces are currently overpowering the centripetal ones? Which regional partner will allow Congress to gain from it?
    Shubho Bijoya; as they say in “aamar bangla”.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    This is the kind of discussion, I am looking for. Thanks Ashish.

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    Pankaj,
    actually thank Mahesh.
    Every time I lapse into frivolity, he tweaks my ear that little bit and forces me to think before writing :)

    [Reply]

  • Anonymous

    Manohar_T

    I meant the statement (8-10 yr scenario) I made was based on a cutoff at Post Godhra.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    The blog is silent since last one hour or so? what I should do? Praise Shenoy, that will surely bring lot of mails here. I will praise him and Vijay, my friend. I have started respecting Ashish for his Candid writing. I have given up on Ravi. Manohar and Mahesh are my favorite soundboard. Shan, Yes and NO. Does not mean so many people, whom I admire,Rajeevs included. Immediately Parveen Saxena comes to mind. Hey people, it is silence here. Do not deprive me of my Fun.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Pankaj ji,

    it is 9.15AM here and I am already posting on the blog, because today being Vijay Dashmi, there are no newspapers. And everywhere in Karnataka today is a total shut down.

    Yes, Ashish is very sensible,liberal, witty and lucid. His posts mostly approximate our own. It is his style which even jihad fundoos sometimes like and approve.

    Mahesh has perfected the art of writing long posts, matching those of Tajender and still make people wonder what was all that about, unlike Tajender, where you know instantly that it is outpouring of some anti-Hindu drivel.

    It is, however, Manohar, who, with his unwavering faith in the Rajmata and her progeny, who is very likely to be co-opted by Vinodji for a suitable place in HT, NMC, CWC, CWG, NHRC or even AI.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    I feel truly “honoured” by being on the “top of the charts” of Shenoy’s list of hate-objects.

    I wonder who I have displaced! Answers, anyone?

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Thanks Shenoy sahab.
    It is 3 in the morning here, but as I had to make some important calls overseas, I am writing this. Yes, we are living in a democracy and every one is entitled to his views. With some, I agree and with some I do not. Again, with some, I strongly disagree, but then, I do not read or respond to them. I have no vested interest in Indian politics or may be I have, as still a large part of my extended family is in India.

    [Reply]

    Ravi Reply:

    Thank you Pankaj.

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1

    OK, I tried.
    What I read is Spanish Police busted a ring where Chinese prostitution ring and drug connections busted. Pakistanis have strong presence in Barcelona. Any connection?? Deprived peoples’ solidarity???

    [Reply]

  • Pankaj#1
  • Anonymous

    I have immense liking for Ashish’s thought process because I see a striking similarity between my thinking minus Ashish’s positive views on CPM.

    He has asked me to regret these words “F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..”

    I regret for my choice of words but I have contempt for all ritualistic religions especially Islam and Christianity. The christianity is bit better than Islam because it doesn’t issue death sentence to people who insult Jesus. Whereas Islam is very intolerant faith. There are many good things in Islam especially equality before god and charity..but overall Islam-Mohammad and Christianity fail to inspire me or make me respect those faith.

    I love to be hindu because no one can force me on any issue but certain aspect of hinduism make me extremely uncomfortable. The kind of behaviour priest indulge in Temple, your homes and cremation ground make me puke. The caste system is a curse…but then there is scope to reject caste system..shun priests. The child marriage is another aspect which doesn’t gel with modern time.

    Now coming to my words “F.U.C.K Mohammad. and F.U.C.K his Islam.He should have visited Rajghat..”, I just wanted to say that one should not bring religion in public space. Why did Saudi king not consider visiting Rajghat just as diplomatic gesture? If I visit a muslim country and their is some national monument that is respectable in that land, I’d show my respect to it and not bring my religion as an excuse.

    The Mullah who offered Modi skullcap wanted to put Modi in a spot..He was basically playing politics on behalf of some one. Modi by not accepting skull cap basically rejected display of religion on public forum. I’d also like to see all govt. function devoid of any hindu symbolism including lighting lamps.

    Coming to RSS, it never inspired me. I tried to understand it and found that it want hindus to behave like muslims..intolerant and full of religious garbage. The kind of history taught in RSS shakhas is basically fairy tales devoid of any historicity. The only things that I like about RSS is its nationalism and social services. They should discard pajamachaap culture (compared to Tableeghi Jamaat culture) and embrace modernity.

    One more observation, I have seen muslims compete with each other to prove who is better muslim whereas hindus compete with each other to prove that they are non-practicing or athiest. I was under the impression that there is nothing to Practice to be a hindu and being atheist too is hindu.

    Can some one explain how does one become non-practicing hindu?

    Sorry for long post because matter of bread and butter keep me away from this blog.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Rajeev,

    “‘ One more observation, I have seen muslims compete with each other to prove who is better muslim whereas hindus compete with each other to prove that they are non-practicing or athiest “”

    Yes, you are right. I have also observed similar thing and in both the cases
    I have noticed a tinge of arrogance among the people who claim to be better muslim or an atheiest. But thats the beauty of all people that
    we are different . Thats why all this discussions, arguments, cursings and
    sometimes abusing – I wish there was no personal abusing – .
    It takes all types of people to make this wonderful world and in our case
    this wonderful blog.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    @ Rajeev and Mohan

    Rajeev you indeed did make a very perceptive observation when you said “One more observation, I have seen muslims compete with each other to prove who is better muslim whereas hindus compete with each other to prove that they are non-practicing or athiest. I was under the impression that there is nothing to Practice to be a hindu and being atheist too … ”

    these are the sort of gems you dont get in mainstream media, but only get in blog sites. Surely made my day !

    [Reply]

    AshishC Reply:

    To Rajeev:
    Why I call myself a non-practicing Hindu
    Stray thoughts; not sequential or even logical.
    1. I go for Anjali every Ashtami; and eat the prasad with gusto. All the time while the anjali mantras are being chanted, my mind is finding faults with the Pandit’s rendering – wrong, wrong, all wrong.. eshah sa-chandanah becomes esham sa-chandanam and I cringe.
    My mind is not on the Goddess in front; it is happy being analytical.
    2. The same me, have spent 4 years in Varanasi and never went and even saw the Vishwanath temple. Though, the temple in the college campus was often visited.
    3. My wife prays; I don’t. My children don’t.

    I guess, I am saying the same things as you are saying. I do what I please; and what pleases my near and dear ones. I don’t ever ask myself if my actions square with any religion- actually, I think, this is the heart of being a Hindu.
    I am uploading a picture along with this post- this is from the Puja Pandal next to my home. This, to me is Hinduism at its best- Sister Nivedita, Vivekananda and Aurobindo sharing space inside the pandal with Mother Teresa.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Aashsih/Rajeev,

    Thats the beauty of hindu religion – is there such thing as hindu religion ? – that there are no compulsions of dos and donts.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    hindu is basically samaj it is not religion.i dont understan why when an atheist can be hindu,quran reading cannot.hindu is nationality ,why it is denied to muslims and christians.

    a zoinist game to create tension for nothing.britain or american cannot be religion.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Ashish,
    Beautiful post.
    Point 1: I am guilty of same..I too get very sinful thoughts while doing ritualistic pujas…I admonish myself but ignorance of pundits and their behaviour puts me off.
    Point 2: I went to Bhubaneshwar on business trip and had some work in Puri. I stayed in a hotel around 100 meters from temple. I could see temple from window but I didn’t visit..I regret that arrogance even today because I missed a wonderful opportunity to see this ancient temple and pay respect to Lord Jagannath.
    Point 3: My wife prays so do my kids and I when forced.

    Great Picture..Just a day back I was reading an article on Vivekananda in NYT or some other paper..The kind of impact he made on minds of people who met is amazing. I’ll call him modern day prophet.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    “One more observation, I have seen Muslims compete with each other to prove who is better Muslim….”

    Bang on target. This competition is only on the surface. – trying to be mirror images of the mullahs – skull cap, kurta, three quarter pajamas and long beards, and show of regular visits to the mosque – no doubt there may be some genuinely devote, but would be in small minority. Among women it is a competition as to whose burkha hides more.

    Obviously, peer and mob pressure is working overtime here.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    “One more observation, I have seen Muslims compete with each other to prove who is better Muslim

    because islam is morality based religion.one of my family member is very rich.in start of his bussines he took interest from the people.this happened many many years ago,even now nobody drink water in his house.u people abuse arabs,u have rightbut i have seen the contractors who take good sum of money from manpower supplier and return this to workers when they arrive here.most of benefiary are hindu labour.
    they know labor has to pay x amount money so they take 80%of that money and return on arrival.

    we people should fight for better of salaries in india.what a teaboy get in dubai 3-4 year experience engineer get in india.this is the biggest dishonesty with people of india.while indian capitalist are many timemore richer than dubai
    nobody speak about this.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Tajender,

    You have admitted that you are a Muslim.

    Now, tick any of the following as applicable to you:

    1.you are an Indian Muslim jihadi working for ISI.
    2.You are a Pakistani jihadi working for ISI
    3.You are a fake Indian but genuine jihadi
    4.you are like fake Ravi.

    Ravi Reply:

    Tajendar

    While you are there please tick on the following as well.

    1. Indian Muslims are no better and no worse than Hindutavawadi’s Like BV Shenoy

    2. B V Shenoy has his own personal definition of who is a Hndu, which is not universally accepted.

    3. Who gives a damn as to what BV Shenoy thinks any way.

    4. All RSS wallahs are Saffron Terrorists.

    5. To those who die, does it matter that a Jihadi bomb Killed them or a RSS inspired Riot.

    6. RSS is just as bad for India as Jihad is.

    Anonymous Reply:

    Correction-
    6. RSS is just as bad for India as fanatic muslims are.

    engrich Reply:

    the awnser is **** off

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    Good post Rajeev.
    Yes, I also proclaimed that I am a non practicing Hindu. When I say non practicing hindu, I meant, I do not go to temple very often, Just accompanying my wife some time. Do not do daily Pooja, but take prasad, whenever, it is offered. For me, hinduism embrace all humanity and not people sporting hair tuft, Janaiu, Tilak or such outward manifestations.

    [Reply]

    engrich Reply:

    in india those who abuse muslims are called hindu and those who abuse hindus are called muslim.

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    Whatever you have described makes you practicing hindu. As a hindu you are not suppose to irritate god with 5 prayers a day..and take his name on every damn thing.
    This is what makes hinduism fluid and personal for everyone. My hinduism can be totally different than yours but at the end of the day we are hindus who love our freedom.

    [Reply]

    Pankaj#1 Reply:

    OK Rajeev;
    If that makes me practicing hindu, I am happy.

    Anonymous Reply:

    You see..I converted you to hinduism..I’ll get 72 tight a$$ed apsaras in Swarg.

    engrich Reply:

    which will include ur mother as well.

    engrich Reply:

    rajeev hindu is not a religion actually it is nemesis of all religion.only hindu gods are loaded with deadly weapon come to destroy the oppressed.

    engrich Reply:

    blogg is excellent.rss is nazi party.they behvave evrywhere like this.brhmnsm is father fascism and nazism.rss will hurt hindus 1000 times more than muslims.muslims have nothing to loose.in ayodhya they have planned civil war between followers of sviva and vishnu.muslims were hurt when mosque was demolished later forgot.as this does not their daily life.a sikh advani was inciting masses to demolish mosque.this is zoinism or brhmnsm.capitalists of new york were supporting financing october revolution in 1917.idea was to hurt russian.later they killed 10million ukranians by destroying their crop in stalin time.
    hindu is basically samaj not religion.vedas prohibits idol worshing.

    u say u agree to spiritual side of islam.u can critisize prophet mohammed(pbuh)but abusing even servant is not a good form.we are not mohammadans
    we are muslims.message is very strong that is why half the world follow this.

    had the muslims being intoleran 2 crores non-muslims would not have been working in muslim countries.

    so rethink.u know about islam atleast more than me.

    friendship kisi bhi kar lo,dushmani sonch samajh ke karo.at the end u will become like ur enemy.

    one shree laxmi acharya jee from kanpur abused muslims most part his life.after he understood the thing.left rss.and wrote many articles and book apologing muslims.

    [Reply]